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innovation-hacking2

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shitposting_dataset1

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[ "They can offer Nuremberg. It has the premises ready", ">\n\nWould be truly symbolic, not that there would be any chance to extract Putin and his cronies from Russia, while it still possesses nukes...", ">\n\nThere is certainly a chance. There are 147 million people in the Russian federation. They can throw 147 into the court system. A court system which will give those 147 men the opportunity to defend themselves and to face consequences only for actions which those 147 men are actually guilty of and no more. In exchange Russia gets the opportunity to participate in global civilization and share the freedom and prosperity. If they do not take the offer the Russian people have to languish under the despotism of those same 147 criminals. \nI do not know the odds but they are greater than zero.", ">\n\nI don't mean to shit on your idea because it isn't bad, it's just unrealistic. First off, you know those 147 men would consist of critics of Putin and journalists he was already about to assassinate anyway.\nBut the even bigger issue is the assumption that they would want to participate in this current global civilization. Putin banked all his capital on the \"history is written by the victor\" sentiment, not to mention the shared sentiment with China of forcing their perception on other nations with weaponized hypocrisy.\nPutin will never admit that his invasion failed, or that he committed war crimes or give up land. He wants to fight until the rest of the world is fatigued enough to concede and admit defeat to just end this already.\nAnd while it's definitely a condemnable attitude, he wouldn't stick to this if it weren't normalized in the past. The Crimea has been annexed since 2014, yet it was more convenient for everyone to just agree that \"those aren't Russian army men\" even though of course they were.\nSame with China putting pressure on the West to turn a blind eye on its' many questionable practices.\nYou can't just roll over and allow autocrats to do whatever and then expect them to suddenly respect you.", ">\n\nI meant Putin can be overthrown. The new administration rounds up the former leadership. \n\nYou can't just roll over and allow autocrats to do whatever and then expect them to suddenly respect you.\n\nBut a people can overthrow their autocratic regime and then become a respected nation.", ">\n\nHe can, but if you look at the timeline of the Russian Revolution of 1917 as a timeline, that ain't exactly a quick process either", ">\n\nCall me when they have Putin in custody. \nHe gives zero shits if his top people end up going to prison for war crimes. \nAnd there’s no way the war doesn’t end without:\n\nPutin dead \nPutin negotiating a deal where he never is held personally responsible. \n\nIt’s right in the dictator handbook. If you kill enough people, other countries will offer to give you a pass just to get you to stop.", ">\n\nHes only going to use it as propaganda, like \"evil west wants to judge me for defending mother russia\".", ">\n\nWhile I agree he should be held accountable, what are they going to do? Walk up to the Kremlin with 20 cops knock on the door and arrest him? This is nothing", ">\n\nNo. The Russians will do that.", ">\n\nI’m not 100% sure about that he’s put fear and blind loyalty in the right places", ">\n\nFear yes! Loyalty I'm not so sure. Seems like those most loyal have had some tragic and fatal accidents as of late. Price of failure I guess. But I'm more sure that those that remain are doing so more out of complete fear than anything else. Putin has everyone guessing who is truly loyal that everyone is too afraid to band together with the other fearful to remove him.", ">\n\nNah some of them mf act like golom and vlad is the god damn ring", ">\n\nNuremberg would be a great location.", ">\n\nThis is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 72%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nTHE HAGUE - The international community should establish a special tribunal to bring Russian President Vladimir Putin and his regime to trial over their war of aggression against Ukraine, German Foreign Minister Annalena Baerbock said Monday.\nIn a keynote speech following a visit to the International Criminal Court in The Hague, Baerbock emphasized the need to hold the Russian leadership \"Accountable\" for their invasion, which started almost a year ago.\nTo avoid this impasse, Baerbock said she wanted to form, together with partner countries, \"a special tribunal\" to address the crime of aggression against Ukraine that could investigate and try the Russian leadership.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: international^#1 Court^#2 tribunal^#3 crime^#4 Ukraine^#5", ">\n\nI think that's a fantastic idea.", ">\n\n“This aggression will not stand, man”\n-The Dude\n -Baerbock", ">\n\nPutin's a nihilist?", ">\n\nNoooo funny business, Putbowski", ">\n\nWe ba-lieve in nassing…", ">\n\nI think Putin feels he is above all that, he is untouchable. IMHO the only hope to end the war is for Putin to commit suicide or be assassinated.", ">\n\nKill Putin, someone else will be put in place by the oligarchs. You won't change too much.", ">\n\nI don't think that would happen. The oligarchs likely don't have the megalomaniac inclination Putin has. I don't see them wanting to continue down the road of attaching Ukraine.\nAlthough In the long run, I don't see Russia as becoming a \"nice\" country.", ">\n\nBaerbock proposes special tribunal to fuck the Russian raw", ">\n\nAnnalena is tough, if she could, she would drag Putin by his ear to Nürnberg herself.", ">\n\nShe’s one of the few German politicians I’m really fond of. It’s no wonder why the Greens are doing so well in the polls", ">\n\nMy family keeps hating on her because she misspoke like once or twice in front of the press. They literally do not have one real point of attack, no valid criticism, so they have to resort to personal attacks. It's sad. She's actually quite impressive.", ">\n\nPlagiarized her book? Faked her resume? Spouse became a lobbyist? I mean, she joins a long list of German politicians in these, but she’s not exactly unbefleckt.", ">\n\nWhy stop with Russian leadership? Going after everyone involved in Russian military, logistics, and State media disinformation may have serious affects on there mobilization capacity.", ">\n\nQuestion. What actual crime can they charge Russian State Media personalities with?\nThe West cant find the legal means to deal with sources of misinformation in their own countries, I struggle to see how they can deal with sources of misinformation in another country?", ">\n\nPropaganda organs have been prosecuted as accessory for crimes against humanity in the past.\nThis is actually what the Nuremberg trials were about: how can you proescute a country based on laws that were LEGAL in said country? By which authority do you judge?\nThis is how human rights were even established: laws universial to every human, regardless of national laws. Human laws trump national laws, regardless of where or if that country is not even a signatory to any human rights convention (since there weren't any at the end of WW2).\nAnd this is ALSO why most of the EU has \"anti hate-speech\" laws as they are considered a human rights violation. Or at least as \"preparing the way to make human rights violations acceptable\".", ">\n\nI can see him sitting on a stool without handles to hold on to, in a little glascage, alone, and outside all the people he have singlehanded made widows, childless, fatherless, motherless, quietly starring at him while they each poor a little bottle of water into a hole that slowly fill the cage, staring him right in his scared little face without anyone there to help him, no need for a tribunal...", ">\n\nI hate this kind of talk. due process and a permanent, wide open public record of everything he's responsible for is the way. \nthen Germany can reactivate Spandau for him.", ">\n\nIt's very disturbing how some comments on Reddit really read like some sociopathic behavior. It's not the first time someone promotes torture here.", ">\n\n\nman who lived by the sword is proposed to die by the sword\nNooooo, not the heckin' human rightserinooooos", ">\n\nThat's the point, we need to stay better than those we condemned otherwise we're just hypocrites.", ">\n\nIf that was true, the penalty for forcible confinement couldn't be imprisonment.", ">\n\nThis is a BS idea because “we” will never be able to imprison Putin. He will either be overthrown and die by Russian hands or he will die in Russia as president or with cover from some next dictator.\nGermany needs to stop talking about tribunals and start sending tanks to Ukraine already.Focus on how you can help the Ukrainian people now , don’t offer some utopian solution that has no basis in reality.", ">\n\nIMO there’s a nonzero chance a new Russian leader might hand Putin over to get into the West‘s good graces.", ">\n\nWho might that new leader be? Anyone who has the power to force a change is just as culpable. There is no central opposition to unite and lead the masses so any popular revolt will be picked apart bit by bit.", ">\n\nHey, I never said anything about making actual changes!\nHonestly though: No clue. It's an incredibly unlikely scenario anyways.", ">\n\nPutins gonna get fucked baerbock." ]

[ "They can offer Nuremberg. It has the premises ready", ">\n\nWould be truly symbolic, not that there would be any chance to extract Putin and his cronies from Russia, while it still possesses nukes...", ">\n\nThere is certainly a chance. There are 147 million people in the Russian federation. They can throw 147 into the court system. A court system which will give those 147 men the opportunity to defend themselves and to face consequences only for actions which those 147 men are actually guilty of and no more. In exchange Russia gets the opportunity to participate in global civilization and share the freedom and prosperity. If they do not take the offer the Russian people have to languish under the despotism of those same 147 criminals. \nI do not know the odds but they are greater than zero.", ">\n\nI don't mean to shit on your idea because it isn't bad, it's just unrealistic. First off, you know those 147 men would consist of critics of Putin and journalists he was already about to assassinate anyway.\nBut the even bigger issue is the assumption that they would want to participate in this current global civilization. Putin banked all his capital on the \"history is written by the victor\" sentiment, not to mention the shared sentiment with China of forcing their perception on other nations with weaponized hypocrisy.\nPutin will never admit that his invasion failed, or that he committed war crimes or give up land. He wants to fight until the rest of the world is fatigued enough to concede and admit defeat to just end this already.\nAnd while it's definitely a condemnable attitude, he wouldn't stick to this if it weren't normalized in the past. The Crimea has been annexed since 2014, yet it was more convenient for everyone to just agree that \"those aren't Russian army men\" even though of course they were.\nSame with China putting pressure on the West to turn a blind eye on its' many questionable practices.\nYou can't just roll over and allow autocrats to do whatever and then expect them to suddenly respect you.", ">\n\nI meant Putin can be overthrown. The new administration rounds up the former leadership. \n\nYou can't just roll over and allow autocrats to do whatever and then expect them to suddenly respect you.\n\nBut a people can overthrow their autocratic regime and then become a respected nation.", ">\n\nHe can, but if you look at the timeline of the Russian Revolution of 1917 as a timeline, that ain't exactly a quick process either", ">\n\nCall me when they have Putin in custody. \nHe gives zero shits if his top people end up going to prison for war crimes. \nAnd there’s no way the war doesn’t end without:\n\nPutin dead \nPutin negotiating a deal where he never is held personally responsible. \n\nIt’s right in the dictator handbook. If you kill enough people, other countries will offer to give you a pass just to get you to stop.", ">\n\nHes only going to use it as propaganda, like \"evil west wants to judge me for defending mother russia\".", ">\n\nWhile I agree he should be held accountable, what are they going to do? Walk up to the Kremlin with 20 cops knock on the door and arrest him? This is nothing", ">\n\nNo. The Russians will do that.", ">\n\nI’m not 100% sure about that he’s put fear and blind loyalty in the right places", ">\n\nFear yes! Loyalty I'm not so sure. Seems like those most loyal have had some tragic and fatal accidents as of late. Price of failure I guess. But I'm more sure that those that remain are doing so more out of complete fear than anything else. Putin has everyone guessing who is truly loyal that everyone is too afraid to band together with the other fearful to remove him.", ">\n\nNah some of them mf act like golom and vlad is the god damn ring", ">\n\nNuremberg would be a great location.", ">\n\nThis is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 72%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nTHE HAGUE - The international community should establish a special tribunal to bring Russian President Vladimir Putin and his regime to trial over their war of aggression against Ukraine, German Foreign Minister Annalena Baerbock said Monday.\nIn a keynote speech following a visit to the International Criminal Court in The Hague, Baerbock emphasized the need to hold the Russian leadership \"Accountable\" for their invasion, which started almost a year ago.\nTo avoid this impasse, Baerbock said she wanted to form, together with partner countries, \"a special tribunal\" to address the crime of aggression against Ukraine that could investigate and try the Russian leadership.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: international^#1 Court^#2 tribunal^#3 crime^#4 Ukraine^#5", ">\n\nI think that's a fantastic idea.", ">\n\n“This aggression will not stand, man”\n-The Dude\n -Baerbock", ">\n\nPutin's a nihilist?", ">\n\nNoooo funny business, Putbowski", ">\n\nWe ba-lieve in nassing…", ">\n\nI think Putin feels he is above all that, he is untouchable. IMHO the only hope to end the war is for Putin to commit suicide or be assassinated.", ">\n\nKill Putin, someone else will be put in place by the oligarchs. You won't change too much.", ">\n\nI don't think that would happen. The oligarchs likely don't have the megalomaniac inclination Putin has. I don't see them wanting to continue down the road of attaching Ukraine.\nAlthough In the long run, I don't see Russia as becoming a \"nice\" country.", ">\n\nBaerbock proposes special tribunal to fuck the Russian raw", ">\n\nAnnalena is tough, if she could, she would drag Putin by his ear to Nürnberg herself.", ">\n\nShe’s one of the few German politicians I’m really fond of. It’s no wonder why the Greens are doing so well in the polls", ">\n\nMy family keeps hating on her because she misspoke like once or twice in front of the press. They literally do not have one real point of attack, no valid criticism, so they have to resort to personal attacks. It's sad. She's actually quite impressive.", ">\n\nPlagiarized her book? Faked her resume? Spouse became a lobbyist? I mean, she joins a long list of German politicians in these, but she’s not exactly unbefleckt.", ">\n\nWhy stop with Russian leadership? Going after everyone involved in Russian military, logistics, and State media disinformation may have serious affects on there mobilization capacity.", ">\n\nQuestion. What actual crime can they charge Russian State Media personalities with?\nThe West cant find the legal means to deal with sources of misinformation in their own countries, I struggle to see how they can deal with sources of misinformation in another country?", ">\n\nPropaganda organs have been prosecuted as accessory for crimes against humanity in the past.\nThis is actually what the Nuremberg trials were about: how can you proescute a country based on laws that were LEGAL in said country? By which authority do you judge?\nThis is how human rights were even established: laws universial to every human, regardless of national laws. Human laws trump national laws, regardless of where or if that country is not even a signatory to any human rights convention (since there weren't any at the end of WW2).\nAnd this is ALSO why most of the EU has \"anti hate-speech\" laws as they are considered a human rights violation. Or at least as \"preparing the way to make human rights violations acceptable\".", ">\n\nI can see him sitting on a stool without handles to hold on to, in a little glascage, alone, and outside all the people he have singlehanded made widows, childless, fatherless, motherless, quietly starring at him while they each poor a little bottle of water into a hole that slowly fill the cage, staring him right in his scared little face without anyone there to help him, no need for a tribunal...", ">\n\nI hate this kind of talk. due process and a permanent, wide open public record of everything he's responsible for is the way. \nthen Germany can reactivate Spandau for him.", ">\n\nIt's very disturbing how some comments on Reddit really read like some sociopathic behavior. It's not the first time someone promotes torture here.", ">\n\n\nman who lived by the sword is proposed to die by the sword\nNooooo, not the heckin' human rightserinooooos", ">\n\nThat's the point, we need to stay better than those we condemned otherwise we're just hypocrites.", ">\n\nIf that was true, the penalty for forcible confinement couldn't be imprisonment.", ">\n\nThis is a BS idea because “we” will never be able to imprison Putin. He will either be overthrown and die by Russian hands or he will die in Russia as president or with cover from some next dictator.\nGermany needs to stop talking about tribunals and start sending tanks to Ukraine already.Focus on how you can help the Ukrainian people now , don’t offer some utopian solution that has no basis in reality.", ">\n\nIMO there’s a nonzero chance a new Russian leader might hand Putin over to get into the West‘s good graces.", ">\n\nWho might that new leader be? Anyone who has the power to force a change is just as culpable. There is no central opposition to unite and lead the masses so any popular revolt will be picked apart bit by bit.", ">\n\nHey, I never said anything about making actual changes!\nHonestly though: No clue. It's an incredibly unlikely scenario anyways.", ">\n\nPutins gonna get fucked baerbock.", ">\n\nSuch measures are probably counterproductive because it will just make it less likely than Putin will give up and instead will fight to the bitter end.\nOf course such charges could also be negotiated away in order to try to get Putin to give up. Basically if he quits he can go into exile." ]

[ "They can offer Nuremberg. It has the premises ready", ">\n\nWould be truly symbolic, not that there would be any chance to extract Putin and his cronies from Russia, while it still possesses nukes...", ">\n\nThere is certainly a chance. There are 147 million people in the Russian federation. They can throw 147 into the court system. A court system which will give those 147 men the opportunity to defend themselves and to face consequences only for actions which those 147 men are actually guilty of and no more. In exchange Russia gets the opportunity to participate in global civilization and share the freedom and prosperity. If they do not take the offer the Russian people have to languish under the despotism of those same 147 criminals. \nI do not know the odds but they are greater than zero.", ">\n\nI don't mean to shit on your idea because it isn't bad, it's just unrealistic. First off, you know those 147 men would consist of critics of Putin and journalists he was already about to assassinate anyway.\nBut the even bigger issue is the assumption that they would want to participate in this current global civilization. Putin banked all his capital on the \"history is written by the victor\" sentiment, not to mention the shared sentiment with China of forcing their perception on other nations with weaponized hypocrisy.\nPutin will never admit that his invasion failed, or that he committed war crimes or give up land. He wants to fight until the rest of the world is fatigued enough to concede and admit defeat to just end this already.\nAnd while it's definitely a condemnable attitude, he wouldn't stick to this if it weren't normalized in the past. The Crimea has been annexed since 2014, yet it was more convenient for everyone to just agree that \"those aren't Russian army men\" even though of course they were.\nSame with China putting pressure on the West to turn a blind eye on its' many questionable practices.\nYou can't just roll over and allow autocrats to do whatever and then expect them to suddenly respect you.", ">\n\nI meant Putin can be overthrown. The new administration rounds up the former leadership. \n\nYou can't just roll over and allow autocrats to do whatever and then expect them to suddenly respect you.\n\nBut a people can overthrow their autocratic regime and then become a respected nation.", ">\n\nHe can, but if you look at the timeline of the Russian Revolution of 1917 as a timeline, that ain't exactly a quick process either", ">\n\nCall me when they have Putin in custody. \nHe gives zero shits if his top people end up going to prison for war crimes. \nAnd there’s no way the war doesn’t end without:\n\nPutin dead \nPutin negotiating a deal where he never is held personally responsible. \n\nIt’s right in the dictator handbook. If you kill enough people, other countries will offer to give you a pass just to get you to stop.", ">\n\nHes only going to use it as propaganda, like \"evil west wants to judge me for defending mother russia\".", ">\n\nWhile I agree he should be held accountable, what are they going to do? Walk up to the Kremlin with 20 cops knock on the door and arrest him? This is nothing", ">\n\nNo. The Russians will do that.", ">\n\nI’m not 100% sure about that he’s put fear and blind loyalty in the right places", ">\n\nFear yes! Loyalty I'm not so sure. Seems like those most loyal have had some tragic and fatal accidents as of late. Price of failure I guess. But I'm more sure that those that remain are doing so more out of complete fear than anything else. Putin has everyone guessing who is truly loyal that everyone is too afraid to band together with the other fearful to remove him.", ">\n\nNah some of them mf act like golom and vlad is the god damn ring", ">\n\nNuremberg would be a great location.", ">\n\nThis is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 72%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nTHE HAGUE - The international community should establish a special tribunal to bring Russian President Vladimir Putin and his regime to trial over their war of aggression against Ukraine, German Foreign Minister Annalena Baerbock said Monday.\nIn a keynote speech following a visit to the International Criminal Court in The Hague, Baerbock emphasized the need to hold the Russian leadership \"Accountable\" for their invasion, which started almost a year ago.\nTo avoid this impasse, Baerbock said she wanted to form, together with partner countries, \"a special tribunal\" to address the crime of aggression against Ukraine that could investigate and try the Russian leadership.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: international^#1 Court^#2 tribunal^#3 crime^#4 Ukraine^#5", ">\n\nI think that's a fantastic idea.", ">\n\n“This aggression will not stand, man”\n-The Dude\n -Baerbock", ">\n\nPutin's a nihilist?", ">\n\nNoooo funny business, Putbowski", ">\n\nWe ba-lieve in nassing…", ">\n\nI think Putin feels he is above all that, he is untouchable. IMHO the only hope to end the war is for Putin to commit suicide or be assassinated.", ">\n\nKill Putin, someone else will be put in place by the oligarchs. You won't change too much.", ">\n\nI don't think that would happen. The oligarchs likely don't have the megalomaniac inclination Putin has. I don't see them wanting to continue down the road of attaching Ukraine.\nAlthough In the long run, I don't see Russia as becoming a \"nice\" country.", ">\n\nBaerbock proposes special tribunal to fuck the Russian raw", ">\n\nAnnalena is tough, if she could, she would drag Putin by his ear to Nürnberg herself.", ">\n\nShe’s one of the few German politicians I’m really fond of. It’s no wonder why the Greens are doing so well in the polls", ">\n\nMy family keeps hating on her because she misspoke like once or twice in front of the press. They literally do not have one real point of attack, no valid criticism, so they have to resort to personal attacks. It's sad. She's actually quite impressive.", ">\n\nPlagiarized her book? Faked her resume? Spouse became a lobbyist? I mean, she joins a long list of German politicians in these, but she’s not exactly unbefleckt.", ">\n\nWhy stop with Russian leadership? Going after everyone involved in Russian military, logistics, and State media disinformation may have serious affects on there mobilization capacity.", ">\n\nQuestion. What actual crime can they charge Russian State Media personalities with?\nThe West cant find the legal means to deal with sources of misinformation in their own countries, I struggle to see how they can deal with sources of misinformation in another country?", ">\n\nPropaganda organs have been prosecuted as accessory for crimes against humanity in the past.\nThis is actually what the Nuremberg trials were about: how can you proescute a country based on laws that were LEGAL in said country? By which authority do you judge?\nThis is how human rights were even established: laws universial to every human, regardless of national laws. Human laws trump national laws, regardless of where or if that country is not even a signatory to any human rights convention (since there weren't any at the end of WW2).\nAnd this is ALSO why most of the EU has \"anti hate-speech\" laws as they are considered a human rights violation. Or at least as \"preparing the way to make human rights violations acceptable\".", ">\n\nI can see him sitting on a stool without handles to hold on to, in a little glascage, alone, and outside all the people he have singlehanded made widows, childless, fatherless, motherless, quietly starring at him while they each poor a little bottle of water into a hole that slowly fill the cage, staring him right in his scared little face without anyone there to help him, no need for a tribunal...", ">\n\nI hate this kind of talk. due process and a permanent, wide open public record of everything he's responsible for is the way. \nthen Germany can reactivate Spandau for him.", ">\n\nIt's very disturbing how some comments on Reddit really read like some sociopathic behavior. It's not the first time someone promotes torture here.", ">\n\n\nman who lived by the sword is proposed to die by the sword\nNooooo, not the heckin' human rightserinooooos", ">\n\nThat's the point, we need to stay better than those we condemned otherwise we're just hypocrites.", ">\n\nIf that was true, the penalty for forcible confinement couldn't be imprisonment.", ">\n\nThis is a BS idea because “we” will never be able to imprison Putin. He will either be overthrown and die by Russian hands or he will die in Russia as president or with cover from some next dictator.\nGermany needs to stop talking about tribunals and start sending tanks to Ukraine already.Focus on how you can help the Ukrainian people now , don’t offer some utopian solution that has no basis in reality.", ">\n\nIMO there’s a nonzero chance a new Russian leader might hand Putin over to get into the West‘s good graces.", ">\n\nWho might that new leader be? Anyone who has the power to force a change is just as culpable. There is no central opposition to unite and lead the masses so any popular revolt will be picked apart bit by bit.", ">\n\nHey, I never said anything about making actual changes!\nHonestly though: No clue. It's an incredibly unlikely scenario anyways.", ">\n\nPutins gonna get fucked baerbock.", ">\n\nSuch measures are probably counterproductive because it will just make it less likely than Putin will give up and instead will fight to the bitter end.\nOf course such charges could also be negotiated away in order to try to get Putin to give up. Basically if he quits he can go into exile.", ">\n\nWhere was this proposal when the Bush administration was invading Iraq?" ]

[ "They can offer Nuremberg. It has the premises ready", ">\n\nWould be truly symbolic, not that there would be any chance to extract Putin and his cronies from Russia, while it still possesses nukes...", ">\n\nThere is certainly a chance. There are 147 million people in the Russian federation. They can throw 147 into the court system. A court system which will give those 147 men the opportunity to defend themselves and to face consequences only for actions which those 147 men are actually guilty of and no more. In exchange Russia gets the opportunity to participate in global civilization and share the freedom and prosperity. If they do not take the offer the Russian people have to languish under the despotism of those same 147 criminals. \nI do not know the odds but they are greater than zero.", ">\n\nI don't mean to shit on your idea because it isn't bad, it's just unrealistic. First off, you know those 147 men would consist of critics of Putin and journalists he was already about to assassinate anyway.\nBut the even bigger issue is the assumption that they would want to participate in this current global civilization. Putin banked all his capital on the \"history is written by the victor\" sentiment, not to mention the shared sentiment with China of forcing their perception on other nations with weaponized hypocrisy.\nPutin will never admit that his invasion failed, or that he committed war crimes or give up land. He wants to fight until the rest of the world is fatigued enough to concede and admit defeat to just end this already.\nAnd while it's definitely a condemnable attitude, he wouldn't stick to this if it weren't normalized in the past. The Crimea has been annexed since 2014, yet it was more convenient for everyone to just agree that \"those aren't Russian army men\" even though of course they were.\nSame with China putting pressure on the West to turn a blind eye on its' many questionable practices.\nYou can't just roll over and allow autocrats to do whatever and then expect them to suddenly respect you.", ">\n\nI meant Putin can be overthrown. The new administration rounds up the former leadership. \n\nYou can't just roll over and allow autocrats to do whatever and then expect them to suddenly respect you.\n\nBut a people can overthrow their autocratic regime and then become a respected nation.", ">\n\nHe can, but if you look at the timeline of the Russian Revolution of 1917 as a timeline, that ain't exactly a quick process either", ">\n\nCall me when they have Putin in custody. \nHe gives zero shits if his top people end up going to prison for war crimes. \nAnd there’s no way the war doesn’t end without:\n\nPutin dead \nPutin negotiating a deal where he never is held personally responsible. \n\nIt’s right in the dictator handbook. If you kill enough people, other countries will offer to give you a pass just to get you to stop.", ">\n\nHes only going to use it as propaganda, like \"evil west wants to judge me for defending mother russia\".", ">\n\nWhile I agree he should be held accountable, what are they going to do? Walk up to the Kremlin with 20 cops knock on the door and arrest him? This is nothing", ">\n\nNo. The Russians will do that.", ">\n\nI’m not 100% sure about that he’s put fear and blind loyalty in the right places", ">\n\nFear yes! Loyalty I'm not so sure. Seems like those most loyal have had some tragic and fatal accidents as of late. Price of failure I guess. But I'm more sure that those that remain are doing so more out of complete fear than anything else. Putin has everyone guessing who is truly loyal that everyone is too afraid to band together with the other fearful to remove him.", ">\n\nNah some of them mf act like golom and vlad is the god damn ring", ">\n\nNuremberg would be a great location.", ">\n\nThis is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 72%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nTHE HAGUE - The international community should establish a special tribunal to bring Russian President Vladimir Putin and his regime to trial over their war of aggression against Ukraine, German Foreign Minister Annalena Baerbock said Monday.\nIn a keynote speech following a visit to the International Criminal Court in The Hague, Baerbock emphasized the need to hold the Russian leadership \"Accountable\" for their invasion, which started almost a year ago.\nTo avoid this impasse, Baerbock said she wanted to form, together with partner countries, \"a special tribunal\" to address the crime of aggression against Ukraine that could investigate and try the Russian leadership.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: international^#1 Court^#2 tribunal^#3 crime^#4 Ukraine^#5", ">\n\nI think that's a fantastic idea.", ">\n\n“This aggression will not stand, man”\n-The Dude\n -Baerbock", ">\n\nPutin's a nihilist?", ">\n\nNoooo funny business, Putbowski", ">\n\nWe ba-lieve in nassing…", ">\n\nI think Putin feels he is above all that, he is untouchable. IMHO the only hope to end the war is for Putin to commit suicide or be assassinated.", ">\n\nKill Putin, someone else will be put in place by the oligarchs. You won't change too much.", ">\n\nI don't think that would happen. The oligarchs likely don't have the megalomaniac inclination Putin has. I don't see them wanting to continue down the road of attaching Ukraine.\nAlthough In the long run, I don't see Russia as becoming a \"nice\" country.", ">\n\nBaerbock proposes special tribunal to fuck the Russian raw", ">\n\nAnnalena is tough, if she could, she would drag Putin by his ear to Nürnberg herself.", ">\n\nShe’s one of the few German politicians I’m really fond of. It’s no wonder why the Greens are doing so well in the polls", ">\n\nMy family keeps hating on her because she misspoke like once or twice in front of the press. They literally do not have one real point of attack, no valid criticism, so they have to resort to personal attacks. It's sad. She's actually quite impressive.", ">\n\nPlagiarized her book? Faked her resume? Spouse became a lobbyist? I mean, she joins a long list of German politicians in these, but she’s not exactly unbefleckt.", ">\n\nWhy stop with Russian leadership? Going after everyone involved in Russian military, logistics, and State media disinformation may have serious affects on there mobilization capacity.", ">\n\nQuestion. What actual crime can they charge Russian State Media personalities with?\nThe West cant find the legal means to deal with sources of misinformation in their own countries, I struggle to see how they can deal with sources of misinformation in another country?", ">\n\nPropaganda organs have been prosecuted as accessory for crimes against humanity in the past.\nThis is actually what the Nuremberg trials were about: how can you proescute a country based on laws that were LEGAL in said country? By which authority do you judge?\nThis is how human rights were even established: laws universial to every human, regardless of national laws. Human laws trump national laws, regardless of where or if that country is not even a signatory to any human rights convention (since there weren't any at the end of WW2).\nAnd this is ALSO why most of the EU has \"anti hate-speech\" laws as they are considered a human rights violation. Or at least as \"preparing the way to make human rights violations acceptable\".", ">\n\nI can see him sitting on a stool without handles to hold on to, in a little glascage, alone, and outside all the people he have singlehanded made widows, childless, fatherless, motherless, quietly starring at him while they each poor a little bottle of water into a hole that slowly fill the cage, staring him right in his scared little face without anyone there to help him, no need for a tribunal...", ">\n\nI hate this kind of talk. due process and a permanent, wide open public record of everything he's responsible for is the way. \nthen Germany can reactivate Spandau for him.", ">\n\nIt's very disturbing how some comments on Reddit really read like some sociopathic behavior. It's not the first time someone promotes torture here.", ">\n\n\nman who lived by the sword is proposed to die by the sword\nNooooo, not the heckin' human rightserinooooos", ">\n\nThat's the point, we need to stay better than those we condemned otherwise we're just hypocrites.", ">\n\nIf that was true, the penalty for forcible confinement couldn't be imprisonment.", ">\n\nThis is a BS idea because “we” will never be able to imprison Putin. He will either be overthrown and die by Russian hands or he will die in Russia as president or with cover from some next dictator.\nGermany needs to stop talking about tribunals and start sending tanks to Ukraine already.Focus on how you can help the Ukrainian people now , don’t offer some utopian solution that has no basis in reality.", ">\n\nIMO there’s a nonzero chance a new Russian leader might hand Putin over to get into the West‘s good graces.", ">\n\nWho might that new leader be? Anyone who has the power to force a change is just as culpable. There is no central opposition to unite and lead the masses so any popular revolt will be picked apart bit by bit.", ">\n\nHey, I never said anything about making actual changes!\nHonestly though: No clue. It's an incredibly unlikely scenario anyways.", ">\n\nPutins gonna get fucked baerbock.", ">\n\nSuch measures are probably counterproductive because it will just make it less likely than Putin will give up and instead will fight to the bitter end.\nOf course such charges could also be negotiated away in order to try to get Putin to give up. Basically if he quits he can go into exile.", ">\n\nWhere was this proposal when the Bush administration was invading Iraq?", ">\n\nNo one complains when the Power Rangers destroys the aliens with the Megazord. Good guys get a free pass" ]

[ "They can offer Nuremberg. It has the premises ready", ">\n\nWould be truly symbolic, not that there would be any chance to extract Putin and his cronies from Russia, while it still possesses nukes...", ">\n\nThere is certainly a chance. There are 147 million people in the Russian federation. They can throw 147 into the court system. A court system which will give those 147 men the opportunity to defend themselves and to face consequences only for actions which those 147 men are actually guilty of and no more. In exchange Russia gets the opportunity to participate in global civilization and share the freedom and prosperity. If they do not take the offer the Russian people have to languish under the despotism of those same 147 criminals. \nI do not know the odds but they are greater than zero.", ">\n\nI don't mean to shit on your idea because it isn't bad, it's just unrealistic. First off, you know those 147 men would consist of critics of Putin and journalists he was already about to assassinate anyway.\nBut the even bigger issue is the assumption that they would want to participate in this current global civilization. Putin banked all his capital on the \"history is written by the victor\" sentiment, not to mention the shared sentiment with China of forcing their perception on other nations with weaponized hypocrisy.\nPutin will never admit that his invasion failed, or that he committed war crimes or give up land. He wants to fight until the rest of the world is fatigued enough to concede and admit defeat to just end this already.\nAnd while it's definitely a condemnable attitude, he wouldn't stick to this if it weren't normalized in the past. The Crimea has been annexed since 2014, yet it was more convenient for everyone to just agree that \"those aren't Russian army men\" even though of course they were.\nSame with China putting pressure on the West to turn a blind eye on its' many questionable practices.\nYou can't just roll over and allow autocrats to do whatever and then expect them to suddenly respect you.", ">\n\nI meant Putin can be overthrown. The new administration rounds up the former leadership. \n\nYou can't just roll over and allow autocrats to do whatever and then expect them to suddenly respect you.\n\nBut a people can overthrow their autocratic regime and then become a respected nation.", ">\n\nHe can, but if you look at the timeline of the Russian Revolution of 1917 as a timeline, that ain't exactly a quick process either", ">\n\nCall me when they have Putin in custody. \nHe gives zero shits if his top people end up going to prison for war crimes. \nAnd there’s no way the war doesn’t end without:\n\nPutin dead \nPutin negotiating a deal where he never is held personally responsible. \n\nIt’s right in the dictator handbook. If you kill enough people, other countries will offer to give you a pass just to get you to stop.", ">\n\nHes only going to use it as propaganda, like \"evil west wants to judge me for defending mother russia\".", ">\n\nWhile I agree he should be held accountable, what are they going to do? Walk up to the Kremlin with 20 cops knock on the door and arrest him? This is nothing", ">\n\nNo. The Russians will do that.", ">\n\nI’m not 100% sure about that he’s put fear and blind loyalty in the right places", ">\n\nFear yes! Loyalty I'm not so sure. Seems like those most loyal have had some tragic and fatal accidents as of late. Price of failure I guess. But I'm more sure that those that remain are doing so more out of complete fear than anything else. Putin has everyone guessing who is truly loyal that everyone is too afraid to band together with the other fearful to remove him.", ">\n\nNah some of them mf act like golom and vlad is the god damn ring", ">\n\nNuremberg would be a great location.", ">\n\nThis is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 72%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nTHE HAGUE - The international community should establish a special tribunal to bring Russian President Vladimir Putin and his regime to trial over their war of aggression against Ukraine, German Foreign Minister Annalena Baerbock said Monday.\nIn a keynote speech following a visit to the International Criminal Court in The Hague, Baerbock emphasized the need to hold the Russian leadership \"Accountable\" for their invasion, which started almost a year ago.\nTo avoid this impasse, Baerbock said she wanted to form, together with partner countries, \"a special tribunal\" to address the crime of aggression against Ukraine that could investigate and try the Russian leadership.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: international^#1 Court^#2 tribunal^#3 crime^#4 Ukraine^#5", ">\n\nI think that's a fantastic idea.", ">\n\n“This aggression will not stand, man”\n-The Dude\n -Baerbock", ">\n\nPutin's a nihilist?", ">\n\nNoooo funny business, Putbowski", ">\n\nWe ba-lieve in nassing…", ">\n\nI think Putin feels he is above all that, he is untouchable. IMHO the only hope to end the war is for Putin to commit suicide or be assassinated.", ">\n\nKill Putin, someone else will be put in place by the oligarchs. You won't change too much.", ">\n\nI don't think that would happen. The oligarchs likely don't have the megalomaniac inclination Putin has. I don't see them wanting to continue down the road of attaching Ukraine.\nAlthough In the long run, I don't see Russia as becoming a \"nice\" country.", ">\n\nBaerbock proposes special tribunal to fuck the Russian raw", ">\n\nAnnalena is tough, if she could, she would drag Putin by his ear to Nürnberg herself.", ">\n\nShe’s one of the few German politicians I’m really fond of. It’s no wonder why the Greens are doing so well in the polls", ">\n\nMy family keeps hating on her because she misspoke like once or twice in front of the press. They literally do not have one real point of attack, no valid criticism, so they have to resort to personal attacks. It's sad. She's actually quite impressive.", ">\n\nPlagiarized her book? Faked her resume? Spouse became a lobbyist? I mean, she joins a long list of German politicians in these, but she’s not exactly unbefleckt.", ">\n\nWhy stop with Russian leadership? Going after everyone involved in Russian military, logistics, and State media disinformation may have serious affects on there mobilization capacity.", ">\n\nQuestion. What actual crime can they charge Russian State Media personalities with?\nThe West cant find the legal means to deal with sources of misinformation in their own countries, I struggle to see how they can deal with sources of misinformation in another country?", ">\n\nPropaganda organs have been prosecuted as accessory for crimes against humanity in the past.\nThis is actually what the Nuremberg trials were about: how can you proescute a country based on laws that were LEGAL in said country? By which authority do you judge?\nThis is how human rights were even established: laws universial to every human, regardless of national laws. Human laws trump national laws, regardless of where or if that country is not even a signatory to any human rights convention (since there weren't any at the end of WW2).\nAnd this is ALSO why most of the EU has \"anti hate-speech\" laws as they are considered a human rights violation. Or at least as \"preparing the way to make human rights violations acceptable\".", ">\n\nI can see him sitting on a stool without handles to hold on to, in a little glascage, alone, and outside all the people he have singlehanded made widows, childless, fatherless, motherless, quietly starring at him while they each poor a little bottle of water into a hole that slowly fill the cage, staring him right in his scared little face without anyone there to help him, no need for a tribunal...", ">\n\nI hate this kind of talk. due process and a permanent, wide open public record of everything he's responsible for is the way. \nthen Germany can reactivate Spandau for him.", ">\n\nIt's very disturbing how some comments on Reddit really read like some sociopathic behavior. It's not the first time someone promotes torture here.", ">\n\n\nman who lived by the sword is proposed to die by the sword\nNooooo, not the heckin' human rightserinooooos", ">\n\nThat's the point, we need to stay better than those we condemned otherwise we're just hypocrites.", ">\n\nIf that was true, the penalty for forcible confinement couldn't be imprisonment.", ">\n\nThis is a BS idea because “we” will never be able to imprison Putin. He will either be overthrown and die by Russian hands or he will die in Russia as president or with cover from some next dictator.\nGermany needs to stop talking about tribunals and start sending tanks to Ukraine already.Focus on how you can help the Ukrainian people now , don’t offer some utopian solution that has no basis in reality.", ">\n\nIMO there’s a nonzero chance a new Russian leader might hand Putin over to get into the West‘s good graces.", ">\n\nWho might that new leader be? Anyone who has the power to force a change is just as culpable. There is no central opposition to unite and lead the masses so any popular revolt will be picked apart bit by bit.", ">\n\nHey, I never said anything about making actual changes!\nHonestly though: No clue. It's an incredibly unlikely scenario anyways.", ">\n\nPutins gonna get fucked baerbock.", ">\n\nSuch measures are probably counterproductive because it will just make it less likely than Putin will give up and instead will fight to the bitter end.\nOf course such charges could also be negotiated away in order to try to get Putin to give up. Basically if he quits he can go into exile.", ">\n\nWhere was this proposal when the Bush administration was invading Iraq?", ">\n\nNo one complains when the Power Rangers destroys the aliens with the Megazord. Good guys get a free pass", ">\n\nIs Germany going to go into Russia and bring these people to justice?\nThe answer is no. This is just (empty) political theatre." ]

[ "They can offer Nuremberg. It has the premises ready", ">\n\nWould be truly symbolic, not that there would be any chance to extract Putin and his cronies from Russia, while it still possesses nukes...", ">\n\nThere is certainly a chance. There are 147 million people in the Russian federation. They can throw 147 into the court system. A court system which will give those 147 men the opportunity to defend themselves and to face consequences only for actions which those 147 men are actually guilty of and no more. In exchange Russia gets the opportunity to participate in global civilization and share the freedom and prosperity. If they do not take the offer the Russian people have to languish under the despotism of those same 147 criminals. \nI do not know the odds but they are greater than zero.", ">\n\nI don't mean to shit on your idea because it isn't bad, it's just unrealistic. First off, you know those 147 men would consist of critics of Putin and journalists he was already about to assassinate anyway.\nBut the even bigger issue is the assumption that they would want to participate in this current global civilization. Putin banked all his capital on the \"history is written by the victor\" sentiment, not to mention the shared sentiment with China of forcing their perception on other nations with weaponized hypocrisy.\nPutin will never admit that his invasion failed, or that he committed war crimes or give up land. He wants to fight until the rest of the world is fatigued enough to concede and admit defeat to just end this already.\nAnd while it's definitely a condemnable attitude, he wouldn't stick to this if it weren't normalized in the past. The Crimea has been annexed since 2014, yet it was more convenient for everyone to just agree that \"those aren't Russian army men\" even though of course they were.\nSame with China putting pressure on the West to turn a blind eye on its' many questionable practices.\nYou can't just roll over and allow autocrats to do whatever and then expect them to suddenly respect you.", ">\n\nI meant Putin can be overthrown. The new administration rounds up the former leadership. \n\nYou can't just roll over and allow autocrats to do whatever and then expect them to suddenly respect you.\n\nBut a people can overthrow their autocratic regime and then become a respected nation.", ">\n\nHe can, but if you look at the timeline of the Russian Revolution of 1917 as a timeline, that ain't exactly a quick process either", ">\n\nCall me when they have Putin in custody. \nHe gives zero shits if his top people end up going to prison for war crimes. \nAnd there’s no way the war doesn’t end without:\n\nPutin dead \nPutin negotiating a deal where he never is held personally responsible. \n\nIt’s right in the dictator handbook. If you kill enough people, other countries will offer to give you a pass just to get you to stop.", ">\n\nHes only going to use it as propaganda, like \"evil west wants to judge me for defending mother russia\".", ">\n\nWhile I agree he should be held accountable, what are they going to do? Walk up to the Kremlin with 20 cops knock on the door and arrest him? This is nothing", ">\n\nNo. The Russians will do that.", ">\n\nI’m not 100% sure about that he’s put fear and blind loyalty in the right places", ">\n\nFear yes! Loyalty I'm not so sure. Seems like those most loyal have had some tragic and fatal accidents as of late. Price of failure I guess. But I'm more sure that those that remain are doing so more out of complete fear than anything else. Putin has everyone guessing who is truly loyal that everyone is too afraid to band together with the other fearful to remove him.", ">\n\nNah some of them mf act like golom and vlad is the god damn ring", ">\n\nNuremberg would be a great location.", ">\n\nThis is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 72%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nTHE HAGUE - The international community should establish a special tribunal to bring Russian President Vladimir Putin and his regime to trial over their war of aggression against Ukraine, German Foreign Minister Annalena Baerbock said Monday.\nIn a keynote speech following a visit to the International Criminal Court in The Hague, Baerbock emphasized the need to hold the Russian leadership \"Accountable\" for their invasion, which started almost a year ago.\nTo avoid this impasse, Baerbock said she wanted to form, together with partner countries, \"a special tribunal\" to address the crime of aggression against Ukraine that could investigate and try the Russian leadership.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: international^#1 Court^#2 tribunal^#3 crime^#4 Ukraine^#5", ">\n\nI think that's a fantastic idea.", ">\n\n“This aggression will not stand, man”\n-The Dude\n -Baerbock", ">\n\nPutin's a nihilist?", ">\n\nNoooo funny business, Putbowski", ">\n\nWe ba-lieve in nassing…", ">\n\nI think Putin feels he is above all that, he is untouchable. IMHO the only hope to end the war is for Putin to commit suicide or be assassinated.", ">\n\nKill Putin, someone else will be put in place by the oligarchs. You won't change too much.", ">\n\nI don't think that would happen. The oligarchs likely don't have the megalomaniac inclination Putin has. I don't see them wanting to continue down the road of attaching Ukraine.\nAlthough In the long run, I don't see Russia as becoming a \"nice\" country.", ">\n\nBaerbock proposes special tribunal to fuck the Russian raw", ">\n\nAnnalena is tough, if she could, she would drag Putin by his ear to Nürnberg herself.", ">\n\nShe’s one of the few German politicians I’m really fond of. It’s no wonder why the Greens are doing so well in the polls", ">\n\nMy family keeps hating on her because she misspoke like once or twice in front of the press. They literally do not have one real point of attack, no valid criticism, so they have to resort to personal attacks. It's sad. She's actually quite impressive.", ">\n\nPlagiarized her book? Faked her resume? Spouse became a lobbyist? I mean, she joins a long list of German politicians in these, but she’s not exactly unbefleckt.", ">\n\nWhy stop with Russian leadership? Going after everyone involved in Russian military, logistics, and State media disinformation may have serious affects on there mobilization capacity.", ">\n\nQuestion. What actual crime can they charge Russian State Media personalities with?\nThe West cant find the legal means to deal with sources of misinformation in their own countries, I struggle to see how they can deal with sources of misinformation in another country?", ">\n\nPropaganda organs have been prosecuted as accessory for crimes against humanity in the past.\nThis is actually what the Nuremberg trials were about: how can you proescute a country based on laws that were LEGAL in said country? By which authority do you judge?\nThis is how human rights were even established: laws universial to every human, regardless of national laws. Human laws trump national laws, regardless of where or if that country is not even a signatory to any human rights convention (since there weren't any at the end of WW2).\nAnd this is ALSO why most of the EU has \"anti hate-speech\" laws as they are considered a human rights violation. Or at least as \"preparing the way to make human rights violations acceptable\".", ">\n\nI can see him sitting on a stool without handles to hold on to, in a little glascage, alone, and outside all the people he have singlehanded made widows, childless, fatherless, motherless, quietly starring at him while they each poor a little bottle of water into a hole that slowly fill the cage, staring him right in his scared little face without anyone there to help him, no need for a tribunal...", ">\n\nI hate this kind of talk. due process and a permanent, wide open public record of everything he's responsible for is the way. \nthen Germany can reactivate Spandau for him.", ">\n\nIt's very disturbing how some comments on Reddit really read like some sociopathic behavior. It's not the first time someone promotes torture here.", ">\n\n\nman who lived by the sword is proposed to die by the sword\nNooooo, not the heckin' human rightserinooooos", ">\n\nThat's the point, we need to stay better than those we condemned otherwise we're just hypocrites.", ">\n\nIf that was true, the penalty for forcible confinement couldn't be imprisonment.", ">\n\nThis is a BS idea because “we” will never be able to imprison Putin. He will either be overthrown and die by Russian hands or he will die in Russia as president or with cover from some next dictator.\nGermany needs to stop talking about tribunals and start sending tanks to Ukraine already.Focus on how you can help the Ukrainian people now , don’t offer some utopian solution that has no basis in reality.", ">\n\nIMO there’s a nonzero chance a new Russian leader might hand Putin over to get into the West‘s good graces.", ">\n\nWho might that new leader be? Anyone who has the power to force a change is just as culpable. There is no central opposition to unite and lead the masses so any popular revolt will be picked apart bit by bit.", ">\n\nHey, I never said anything about making actual changes!\nHonestly though: No clue. It's an incredibly unlikely scenario anyways.", ">\n\nPutins gonna get fucked baerbock.", ">\n\nSuch measures are probably counterproductive because it will just make it less likely than Putin will give up and instead will fight to the bitter end.\nOf course such charges could also be negotiated away in order to try to get Putin to give up. Basically if he quits he can go into exile.", ">\n\nWhere was this proposal when the Bush administration was invading Iraq?", ">\n\nNo one complains when the Power Rangers destroys the aliens with the Megazord. Good guys get a free pass", ">\n\nIs Germany going to go into Russia and bring these people to justice?\nThe answer is no. This is just (empty) political theatre.", ">\n\nGermany going into Russia is probably the only way Putin could actually still win this war" ]

[ "They can offer Nuremberg. It has the premises ready", ">\n\nWould be truly symbolic, not that there would be any chance to extract Putin and his cronies from Russia, while it still possesses nukes...", ">\n\nThere is certainly a chance. There are 147 million people in the Russian federation. They can throw 147 into the court system. A court system which will give those 147 men the opportunity to defend themselves and to face consequences only for actions which those 147 men are actually guilty of and no more. In exchange Russia gets the opportunity to participate in global civilization and share the freedom and prosperity. If they do not take the offer the Russian people have to languish under the despotism of those same 147 criminals. \nI do not know the odds but they are greater than zero.", ">\n\nI don't mean to shit on your idea because it isn't bad, it's just unrealistic. First off, you know those 147 men would consist of critics of Putin and journalists he was already about to assassinate anyway.\nBut the even bigger issue is the assumption that they would want to participate in this current global civilization. Putin banked all his capital on the \"history is written by the victor\" sentiment, not to mention the shared sentiment with China of forcing their perception on other nations with weaponized hypocrisy.\nPutin will never admit that his invasion failed, or that he committed war crimes or give up land. He wants to fight until the rest of the world is fatigued enough to concede and admit defeat to just end this already.\nAnd while it's definitely a condemnable attitude, he wouldn't stick to this if it weren't normalized in the past. The Crimea has been annexed since 2014, yet it was more convenient for everyone to just agree that \"those aren't Russian army men\" even though of course they were.\nSame with China putting pressure on the West to turn a blind eye on its' many questionable practices.\nYou can't just roll over and allow autocrats to do whatever and then expect them to suddenly respect you.", ">\n\nI meant Putin can be overthrown. The new administration rounds up the former leadership. \n\nYou can't just roll over and allow autocrats to do whatever and then expect them to suddenly respect you.\n\nBut a people can overthrow their autocratic regime and then become a respected nation.", ">\n\nHe can, but if you look at the timeline of the Russian Revolution of 1917 as a timeline, that ain't exactly a quick process either", ">\n\nCall me when they have Putin in custody. \nHe gives zero shits if his top people end up going to prison for war crimes. \nAnd there’s no way the war doesn’t end without:\n\nPutin dead \nPutin negotiating a deal where he never is held personally responsible. \n\nIt’s right in the dictator handbook. If you kill enough people, other countries will offer to give you a pass just to get you to stop.", ">\n\nHes only going to use it as propaganda, like \"evil west wants to judge me for defending mother russia\".", ">\n\nWhile I agree he should be held accountable, what are they going to do? Walk up to the Kremlin with 20 cops knock on the door and arrest him? This is nothing", ">\n\nNo. The Russians will do that.", ">\n\nI’m not 100% sure about that he’s put fear and blind loyalty in the right places", ">\n\nFear yes! Loyalty I'm not so sure. Seems like those most loyal have had some tragic and fatal accidents as of late. Price of failure I guess. But I'm more sure that those that remain are doing so more out of complete fear than anything else. Putin has everyone guessing who is truly loyal that everyone is too afraid to band together with the other fearful to remove him.", ">\n\nNah some of them mf act like golom and vlad is the god damn ring", ">\n\nNuremberg would be a great location.", ">\n\nThis is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 72%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nTHE HAGUE - The international community should establish a special tribunal to bring Russian President Vladimir Putin and his regime to trial over their war of aggression against Ukraine, German Foreign Minister Annalena Baerbock said Monday.\nIn a keynote speech following a visit to the International Criminal Court in The Hague, Baerbock emphasized the need to hold the Russian leadership \"Accountable\" for their invasion, which started almost a year ago.\nTo avoid this impasse, Baerbock said she wanted to form, together with partner countries, \"a special tribunal\" to address the crime of aggression against Ukraine that could investigate and try the Russian leadership.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: international^#1 Court^#2 tribunal^#3 crime^#4 Ukraine^#5", ">\n\nI think that's a fantastic idea.", ">\n\n“This aggression will not stand, man”\n-The Dude\n -Baerbock", ">\n\nPutin's a nihilist?", ">\n\nNoooo funny business, Putbowski", ">\n\nWe ba-lieve in nassing…", ">\n\nI think Putin feels he is above all that, he is untouchable. IMHO the only hope to end the war is for Putin to commit suicide or be assassinated.", ">\n\nKill Putin, someone else will be put in place by the oligarchs. You won't change too much.", ">\n\nI don't think that would happen. The oligarchs likely don't have the megalomaniac inclination Putin has. I don't see them wanting to continue down the road of attaching Ukraine.\nAlthough In the long run, I don't see Russia as becoming a \"nice\" country.", ">\n\nBaerbock proposes special tribunal to fuck the Russian raw", ">\n\nAnnalena is tough, if she could, she would drag Putin by his ear to Nürnberg herself.", ">\n\nShe’s one of the few German politicians I’m really fond of. It’s no wonder why the Greens are doing so well in the polls", ">\n\nMy family keeps hating on her because she misspoke like once or twice in front of the press. They literally do not have one real point of attack, no valid criticism, so they have to resort to personal attacks. It's sad. She's actually quite impressive.", ">\n\nPlagiarized her book? Faked her resume? Spouse became a lobbyist? I mean, she joins a long list of German politicians in these, but she’s not exactly unbefleckt.", ">\n\nWhy stop with Russian leadership? Going after everyone involved in Russian military, logistics, and State media disinformation may have serious affects on there mobilization capacity.", ">\n\nQuestion. What actual crime can they charge Russian State Media personalities with?\nThe West cant find the legal means to deal with sources of misinformation in their own countries, I struggle to see how they can deal with sources of misinformation in another country?", ">\n\nPropaganda organs have been prosecuted as accessory for crimes against humanity in the past.\nThis is actually what the Nuremberg trials were about: how can you proescute a country based on laws that were LEGAL in said country? By which authority do you judge?\nThis is how human rights were even established: laws universial to every human, regardless of national laws. Human laws trump national laws, regardless of where or if that country is not even a signatory to any human rights convention (since there weren't any at the end of WW2).\nAnd this is ALSO why most of the EU has \"anti hate-speech\" laws as they are considered a human rights violation. Or at least as \"preparing the way to make human rights violations acceptable\".", ">\n\nI can see him sitting on a stool without handles to hold on to, in a little glascage, alone, and outside all the people he have singlehanded made widows, childless, fatherless, motherless, quietly starring at him while they each poor a little bottle of water into a hole that slowly fill the cage, staring him right in his scared little face without anyone there to help him, no need for a tribunal...", ">\n\nI hate this kind of talk. due process and a permanent, wide open public record of everything he's responsible for is the way. \nthen Germany can reactivate Spandau for him.", ">\n\nIt's very disturbing how some comments on Reddit really read like some sociopathic behavior. It's not the first time someone promotes torture here.", ">\n\n\nman who lived by the sword is proposed to die by the sword\nNooooo, not the heckin' human rightserinooooos", ">\n\nThat's the point, we need to stay better than those we condemned otherwise we're just hypocrites.", ">\n\nIf that was true, the penalty for forcible confinement couldn't be imprisonment.", ">\n\nThis is a BS idea because “we” will never be able to imprison Putin. He will either be overthrown and die by Russian hands or he will die in Russia as president or with cover from some next dictator.\nGermany needs to stop talking about tribunals and start sending tanks to Ukraine already.Focus on how you can help the Ukrainian people now , don’t offer some utopian solution that has no basis in reality.", ">\n\nIMO there’s a nonzero chance a new Russian leader might hand Putin over to get into the West‘s good graces.", ">\n\nWho might that new leader be? Anyone who has the power to force a change is just as culpable. There is no central opposition to unite and lead the masses so any popular revolt will be picked apart bit by bit.", ">\n\nHey, I never said anything about making actual changes!\nHonestly though: No clue. It's an incredibly unlikely scenario anyways.", ">\n\nPutins gonna get fucked baerbock.", ">\n\nSuch measures are probably counterproductive because it will just make it less likely than Putin will give up and instead will fight to the bitter end.\nOf course such charges could also be negotiated away in order to try to get Putin to give up. Basically if he quits he can go into exile.", ">\n\nWhere was this proposal when the Bush administration was invading Iraq?", ">\n\nNo one complains when the Power Rangers destroys the aliens with the Megazord. Good guys get a free pass", ">\n\nIs Germany going to go into Russia and bring these people to justice?\nThe answer is no. This is just (empty) political theatre.", ">\n\nGermany going into Russia is probably the only way Putin could actually still win this war", ">\n\nFinally, someone grew a pair!" ]

[ "They can offer Nuremberg. It has the premises ready", ">\n\nWould be truly symbolic, not that there would be any chance to extract Putin and his cronies from Russia, while it still possesses nukes...", ">\n\nThere is certainly a chance. There are 147 million people in the Russian federation. They can throw 147 into the court system. A court system which will give those 147 men the opportunity to defend themselves and to face consequences only for actions which those 147 men are actually guilty of and no more. In exchange Russia gets the opportunity to participate in global civilization and share the freedom and prosperity. If they do not take the offer the Russian people have to languish under the despotism of those same 147 criminals. \nI do not know the odds but they are greater than zero.", ">\n\nI don't mean to shit on your idea because it isn't bad, it's just unrealistic. First off, you know those 147 men would consist of critics of Putin and journalists he was already about to assassinate anyway.\nBut the even bigger issue is the assumption that they would want to participate in this current global civilization. Putin banked all his capital on the \"history is written by the victor\" sentiment, not to mention the shared sentiment with China of forcing their perception on other nations with weaponized hypocrisy.\nPutin will never admit that his invasion failed, or that he committed war crimes or give up land. He wants to fight until the rest of the world is fatigued enough to concede and admit defeat to just end this already.\nAnd while it's definitely a condemnable attitude, he wouldn't stick to this if it weren't normalized in the past. The Crimea has been annexed since 2014, yet it was more convenient for everyone to just agree that \"those aren't Russian army men\" even though of course they were.\nSame with China putting pressure on the West to turn a blind eye on its' many questionable practices.\nYou can't just roll over and allow autocrats to do whatever and then expect them to suddenly respect you.", ">\n\nI meant Putin can be overthrown. The new administration rounds up the former leadership. \n\nYou can't just roll over and allow autocrats to do whatever and then expect them to suddenly respect you.\n\nBut a people can overthrow their autocratic regime and then become a respected nation.", ">\n\nHe can, but if you look at the timeline of the Russian Revolution of 1917 as a timeline, that ain't exactly a quick process either", ">\n\nCall me when they have Putin in custody. \nHe gives zero shits if his top people end up going to prison for war crimes. \nAnd there’s no way the war doesn’t end without:\n\nPutin dead \nPutin negotiating a deal where he never is held personally responsible. \n\nIt’s right in the dictator handbook. If you kill enough people, other countries will offer to give you a pass just to get you to stop.", ">\n\nHes only going to use it as propaganda, like \"evil west wants to judge me for defending mother russia\".", ">\n\nWhile I agree he should be held accountable, what are they going to do? Walk up to the Kremlin with 20 cops knock on the door and arrest him? This is nothing", ">\n\nNo. The Russians will do that.", ">\n\nI’m not 100% sure about that he’s put fear and blind loyalty in the right places", ">\n\nFear yes! Loyalty I'm not so sure. Seems like those most loyal have had some tragic and fatal accidents as of late. Price of failure I guess. But I'm more sure that those that remain are doing so more out of complete fear than anything else. Putin has everyone guessing who is truly loyal that everyone is too afraid to band together with the other fearful to remove him.", ">\n\nNah some of them mf act like golom and vlad is the god damn ring", ">\n\nNuremberg would be a great location.", ">\n\nThis is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 72%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nTHE HAGUE - The international community should establish a special tribunal to bring Russian President Vladimir Putin and his regime to trial over their war of aggression against Ukraine, German Foreign Minister Annalena Baerbock said Monday.\nIn a keynote speech following a visit to the International Criminal Court in The Hague, Baerbock emphasized the need to hold the Russian leadership \"Accountable\" for their invasion, which started almost a year ago.\nTo avoid this impasse, Baerbock said she wanted to form, together with partner countries, \"a special tribunal\" to address the crime of aggression against Ukraine that could investigate and try the Russian leadership.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: international^#1 Court^#2 tribunal^#3 crime^#4 Ukraine^#5", ">\n\nI think that's a fantastic idea.", ">\n\n“This aggression will not stand, man”\n-The Dude\n -Baerbock", ">\n\nPutin's a nihilist?", ">\n\nNoooo funny business, Putbowski", ">\n\nWe ba-lieve in nassing…", ">\n\nI think Putin feels he is above all that, he is untouchable. IMHO the only hope to end the war is for Putin to commit suicide or be assassinated.", ">\n\nKill Putin, someone else will be put in place by the oligarchs. You won't change too much.", ">\n\nI don't think that would happen. The oligarchs likely don't have the megalomaniac inclination Putin has. I don't see them wanting to continue down the road of attaching Ukraine.\nAlthough In the long run, I don't see Russia as becoming a \"nice\" country.", ">\n\nBaerbock proposes special tribunal to fuck the Russian raw", ">\n\nAnnalena is tough, if she could, she would drag Putin by his ear to Nürnberg herself.", ">\n\nShe’s one of the few German politicians I’m really fond of. It’s no wonder why the Greens are doing so well in the polls", ">\n\nMy family keeps hating on her because she misspoke like once or twice in front of the press. They literally do not have one real point of attack, no valid criticism, so they have to resort to personal attacks. It's sad. She's actually quite impressive.", ">\n\nPlagiarized her book? Faked her resume? Spouse became a lobbyist? I mean, she joins a long list of German politicians in these, but she’s not exactly unbefleckt.", ">\n\nWhy stop with Russian leadership? Going after everyone involved in Russian military, logistics, and State media disinformation may have serious affects on there mobilization capacity.", ">\n\nQuestion. What actual crime can they charge Russian State Media personalities with?\nThe West cant find the legal means to deal with sources of misinformation in their own countries, I struggle to see how they can deal with sources of misinformation in another country?", ">\n\nPropaganda organs have been prosecuted as accessory for crimes against humanity in the past.\nThis is actually what the Nuremberg trials were about: how can you proescute a country based on laws that were LEGAL in said country? By which authority do you judge?\nThis is how human rights were even established: laws universial to every human, regardless of national laws. Human laws trump national laws, regardless of where or if that country is not even a signatory to any human rights convention (since there weren't any at the end of WW2).\nAnd this is ALSO why most of the EU has \"anti hate-speech\" laws as they are considered a human rights violation. Or at least as \"preparing the way to make human rights violations acceptable\".", ">\n\nI can see him sitting on a stool without handles to hold on to, in a little glascage, alone, and outside all the people he have singlehanded made widows, childless, fatherless, motherless, quietly starring at him while they each poor a little bottle of water into a hole that slowly fill the cage, staring him right in his scared little face without anyone there to help him, no need for a tribunal...", ">\n\nI hate this kind of talk. due process and a permanent, wide open public record of everything he's responsible for is the way. \nthen Germany can reactivate Spandau for him.", ">\n\nIt's very disturbing how some comments on Reddit really read like some sociopathic behavior. It's not the first time someone promotes torture here.", ">\n\n\nman who lived by the sword is proposed to die by the sword\nNooooo, not the heckin' human rightserinooooos", ">\n\nThat's the point, we need to stay better than those we condemned otherwise we're just hypocrites.", ">\n\nIf that was true, the penalty for forcible confinement couldn't be imprisonment.", ">\n\nThis is a BS idea because “we” will never be able to imprison Putin. He will either be overthrown and die by Russian hands or he will die in Russia as president or with cover from some next dictator.\nGermany needs to stop talking about tribunals and start sending tanks to Ukraine already.Focus on how you can help the Ukrainian people now , don’t offer some utopian solution that has no basis in reality.", ">\n\nIMO there’s a nonzero chance a new Russian leader might hand Putin over to get into the West‘s good graces.", ">\n\nWho might that new leader be? Anyone who has the power to force a change is just as culpable. There is no central opposition to unite and lead the masses so any popular revolt will be picked apart bit by bit.", ">\n\nHey, I never said anything about making actual changes!\nHonestly though: No clue. It's an incredibly unlikely scenario anyways.", ">\n\nPutins gonna get fucked baerbock.", ">\n\nSuch measures are probably counterproductive because it will just make it less likely than Putin will give up and instead will fight to the bitter end.\nOf course such charges could also be negotiated away in order to try to get Putin to give up. Basically if he quits he can go into exile.", ">\n\nWhere was this proposal when the Bush administration was invading Iraq?", ">\n\nNo one complains when the Power Rangers destroys the aliens with the Megazord. Good guys get a free pass", ">\n\nIs Germany going to go into Russia and bring these people to justice?\nThe answer is no. This is just (empty) political theatre.", ">\n\nGermany going into Russia is probably the only way Putin could actually still win this war", ">\n\nFinally, someone grew a pair!", ">\n\nIf you didt noticed putin doesn give a fuck" ]

[ "They can offer Nuremberg. It has the premises ready", ">\n\nWould be truly symbolic, not that there would be any chance to extract Putin and his cronies from Russia, while it still possesses nukes...", ">\n\nThere is certainly a chance. There are 147 million people in the Russian federation. They can throw 147 into the court system. A court system which will give those 147 men the opportunity to defend themselves and to face consequences only for actions which those 147 men are actually guilty of and no more. In exchange Russia gets the opportunity to participate in global civilization and share the freedom and prosperity. If they do not take the offer the Russian people have to languish under the despotism of those same 147 criminals. \nI do not know the odds but they are greater than zero.", ">\n\nI don't mean to shit on your idea because it isn't bad, it's just unrealistic. First off, you know those 147 men would consist of critics of Putin and journalists he was already about to assassinate anyway.\nBut the even bigger issue is the assumption that they would want to participate in this current global civilization. Putin banked all his capital on the \"history is written by the victor\" sentiment, not to mention the shared sentiment with China of forcing their perception on other nations with weaponized hypocrisy.\nPutin will never admit that his invasion failed, or that he committed war crimes or give up land. He wants to fight until the rest of the world is fatigued enough to concede and admit defeat to just end this already.\nAnd while it's definitely a condemnable attitude, he wouldn't stick to this if it weren't normalized in the past. The Crimea has been annexed since 2014, yet it was more convenient for everyone to just agree that \"those aren't Russian army men\" even though of course they were.\nSame with China putting pressure on the West to turn a blind eye on its' many questionable practices.\nYou can't just roll over and allow autocrats to do whatever and then expect them to suddenly respect you.", ">\n\nI meant Putin can be overthrown. The new administration rounds up the former leadership. \n\nYou can't just roll over and allow autocrats to do whatever and then expect them to suddenly respect you.\n\nBut a people can overthrow their autocratic regime and then become a respected nation.", ">\n\nHe can, but if you look at the timeline of the Russian Revolution of 1917 as a timeline, that ain't exactly a quick process either", ">\n\nCall me when they have Putin in custody. \nHe gives zero shits if his top people end up going to prison for war crimes. \nAnd there’s no way the war doesn’t end without:\n\nPutin dead \nPutin negotiating a deal where he never is held personally responsible. \n\nIt’s right in the dictator handbook. If you kill enough people, other countries will offer to give you a pass just to get you to stop.", ">\n\nHes only going to use it as propaganda, like \"evil west wants to judge me for defending mother russia\".", ">\n\nWhile I agree he should be held accountable, what are they going to do? Walk up to the Kremlin with 20 cops knock on the door and arrest him? This is nothing", ">\n\nNo. The Russians will do that.", ">\n\nI’m not 100% sure about that he’s put fear and blind loyalty in the right places", ">\n\nFear yes! Loyalty I'm not so sure. Seems like those most loyal have had some tragic and fatal accidents as of late. Price of failure I guess. But I'm more sure that those that remain are doing so more out of complete fear than anything else. Putin has everyone guessing who is truly loyal that everyone is too afraid to band together with the other fearful to remove him.", ">\n\nNah some of them mf act like golom and vlad is the god damn ring", ">\n\nNuremberg would be a great location.", ">\n\nThis is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 72%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nTHE HAGUE - The international community should establish a special tribunal to bring Russian President Vladimir Putin and his regime to trial over their war of aggression against Ukraine, German Foreign Minister Annalena Baerbock said Monday.\nIn a keynote speech following a visit to the International Criminal Court in The Hague, Baerbock emphasized the need to hold the Russian leadership \"Accountable\" for their invasion, which started almost a year ago.\nTo avoid this impasse, Baerbock said she wanted to form, together with partner countries, \"a special tribunal\" to address the crime of aggression against Ukraine that could investigate and try the Russian leadership.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: international^#1 Court^#2 tribunal^#3 crime^#4 Ukraine^#5", ">\n\nI think that's a fantastic idea.", ">\n\n“This aggression will not stand, man”\n-The Dude\n -Baerbock", ">\n\nPutin's a nihilist?", ">\n\nNoooo funny business, Putbowski", ">\n\nWe ba-lieve in nassing…", ">\n\nI think Putin feels he is above all that, he is untouchable. IMHO the only hope to end the war is for Putin to commit suicide or be assassinated.", ">\n\nKill Putin, someone else will be put in place by the oligarchs. You won't change too much.", ">\n\nI don't think that would happen. The oligarchs likely don't have the megalomaniac inclination Putin has. I don't see them wanting to continue down the road of attaching Ukraine.\nAlthough In the long run, I don't see Russia as becoming a \"nice\" country.", ">\n\nBaerbock proposes special tribunal to fuck the Russian raw", ">\n\nAnnalena is tough, if she could, she would drag Putin by his ear to Nürnberg herself.", ">\n\nShe’s one of the few German politicians I’m really fond of. It’s no wonder why the Greens are doing so well in the polls", ">\n\nMy family keeps hating on her because she misspoke like once or twice in front of the press. They literally do not have one real point of attack, no valid criticism, so they have to resort to personal attacks. It's sad. She's actually quite impressive.", ">\n\nPlagiarized her book? Faked her resume? Spouse became a lobbyist? I mean, she joins a long list of German politicians in these, but she’s not exactly unbefleckt.", ">\n\nWhy stop with Russian leadership? Going after everyone involved in Russian military, logistics, and State media disinformation may have serious affects on there mobilization capacity.", ">\n\nQuestion. What actual crime can they charge Russian State Media personalities with?\nThe West cant find the legal means to deal with sources of misinformation in their own countries, I struggle to see how they can deal with sources of misinformation in another country?", ">\n\nPropaganda organs have been prosecuted as accessory for crimes against humanity in the past.\nThis is actually what the Nuremberg trials were about: how can you proescute a country based on laws that were LEGAL in said country? By which authority do you judge?\nThis is how human rights were even established: laws universial to every human, regardless of national laws. Human laws trump national laws, regardless of where or if that country is not even a signatory to any human rights convention (since there weren't any at the end of WW2).\nAnd this is ALSO why most of the EU has \"anti hate-speech\" laws as they are considered a human rights violation. Or at least as \"preparing the way to make human rights violations acceptable\".", ">\n\nI can see him sitting on a stool without handles to hold on to, in a little glascage, alone, and outside all the people he have singlehanded made widows, childless, fatherless, motherless, quietly starring at him while they each poor a little bottle of water into a hole that slowly fill the cage, staring him right in his scared little face without anyone there to help him, no need for a tribunal...", ">\n\nI hate this kind of talk. due process and a permanent, wide open public record of everything he's responsible for is the way. \nthen Germany can reactivate Spandau for him.", ">\n\nIt's very disturbing how some comments on Reddit really read like some sociopathic behavior. It's not the first time someone promotes torture here.", ">\n\n\nman who lived by the sword is proposed to die by the sword\nNooooo, not the heckin' human rightserinooooos", ">\n\nThat's the point, we need to stay better than those we condemned otherwise we're just hypocrites.", ">\n\nIf that was true, the penalty for forcible confinement couldn't be imprisonment.", ">\n\nThis is a BS idea because “we” will never be able to imprison Putin. He will either be overthrown and die by Russian hands or he will die in Russia as president or with cover from some next dictator.\nGermany needs to stop talking about tribunals and start sending tanks to Ukraine already.Focus on how you can help the Ukrainian people now , don’t offer some utopian solution that has no basis in reality.", ">\n\nIMO there’s a nonzero chance a new Russian leader might hand Putin over to get into the West‘s good graces.", ">\n\nWho might that new leader be? Anyone who has the power to force a change is just as culpable. There is no central opposition to unite and lead the masses so any popular revolt will be picked apart bit by bit.", ">\n\nHey, I never said anything about making actual changes!\nHonestly though: No clue. It's an incredibly unlikely scenario anyways.", ">\n\nPutins gonna get fucked baerbock.", ">\n\nSuch measures are probably counterproductive because it will just make it less likely than Putin will give up and instead will fight to the bitter end.\nOf course such charges could also be negotiated away in order to try to get Putin to give up. Basically if he quits he can go into exile.", ">\n\nWhere was this proposal when the Bush administration was invading Iraq?", ">\n\nNo one complains when the Power Rangers destroys the aliens with the Megazord. Good guys get a free pass", ">\n\nIs Germany going to go into Russia and bring these people to justice?\nThe answer is no. This is just (empty) political theatre.", ">\n\nGermany going into Russia is probably the only way Putin could actually still win this war", ">\n\nFinally, someone grew a pair!", ">\n\nIf you didt noticed putin doesn give a fuck", ">\n\nRussia is still one of the Great Powers. Nobody will go to arrest him without taking a nuke to the face." ]

[ "They can offer Nuremberg. It has the premises ready", ">\n\nWould be truly symbolic, not that there would be any chance to extract Putin and his cronies from Russia, while it still possesses nukes...", ">\n\nThere is certainly a chance. There are 147 million people in the Russian federation. They can throw 147 into the court system. A court system which will give those 147 men the opportunity to defend themselves and to face consequences only for actions which those 147 men are actually guilty of and no more. In exchange Russia gets the opportunity to participate in global civilization and share the freedom and prosperity. If they do not take the offer the Russian people have to languish under the despotism of those same 147 criminals. \nI do not know the odds but they are greater than zero.", ">\n\nI don't mean to shit on your idea because it isn't bad, it's just unrealistic. First off, you know those 147 men would consist of critics of Putin and journalists he was already about to assassinate anyway.\nBut the even bigger issue is the assumption that they would want to participate in this current global civilization. Putin banked all his capital on the \"history is written by the victor\" sentiment, not to mention the shared sentiment with China of forcing their perception on other nations with weaponized hypocrisy.\nPutin will never admit that his invasion failed, or that he committed war crimes or give up land. He wants to fight until the rest of the world is fatigued enough to concede and admit defeat to just end this already.\nAnd while it's definitely a condemnable attitude, he wouldn't stick to this if it weren't normalized in the past. The Crimea has been annexed since 2014, yet it was more convenient for everyone to just agree that \"those aren't Russian army men\" even though of course they were.\nSame with China putting pressure on the West to turn a blind eye on its' many questionable practices.\nYou can't just roll over and allow autocrats to do whatever and then expect them to suddenly respect you.", ">\n\nI meant Putin can be overthrown. The new administration rounds up the former leadership. \n\nYou can't just roll over and allow autocrats to do whatever and then expect them to suddenly respect you.\n\nBut a people can overthrow their autocratic regime and then become a respected nation.", ">\n\nHe can, but if you look at the timeline of the Russian Revolution of 1917 as a timeline, that ain't exactly a quick process either", ">\n\nCall me when they have Putin in custody. \nHe gives zero shits if his top people end up going to prison for war crimes. \nAnd there’s no way the war doesn’t end without:\n\nPutin dead \nPutin negotiating a deal where he never is held personally responsible. \n\nIt’s right in the dictator handbook. If you kill enough people, other countries will offer to give you a pass just to get you to stop.", ">\n\nHes only going to use it as propaganda, like \"evil west wants to judge me for defending mother russia\".", ">\n\nWhile I agree he should be held accountable, what are they going to do? Walk up to the Kremlin with 20 cops knock on the door and arrest him? This is nothing", ">\n\nNo. The Russians will do that.", ">\n\nI’m not 100% sure about that he’s put fear and blind loyalty in the right places", ">\n\nFear yes! Loyalty I'm not so sure. Seems like those most loyal have had some tragic and fatal accidents as of late. Price of failure I guess. But I'm more sure that those that remain are doing so more out of complete fear than anything else. Putin has everyone guessing who is truly loyal that everyone is too afraid to band together with the other fearful to remove him.", ">\n\nNah some of them mf act like golom and vlad is the god damn ring", ">\n\nNuremberg would be a great location.", ">\n\nThis is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 72%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nTHE HAGUE - The international community should establish a special tribunal to bring Russian President Vladimir Putin and his regime to trial over their war of aggression against Ukraine, German Foreign Minister Annalena Baerbock said Monday.\nIn a keynote speech following a visit to the International Criminal Court in The Hague, Baerbock emphasized the need to hold the Russian leadership \"Accountable\" for their invasion, which started almost a year ago.\nTo avoid this impasse, Baerbock said she wanted to form, together with partner countries, \"a special tribunal\" to address the crime of aggression against Ukraine that could investigate and try the Russian leadership.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: international^#1 Court^#2 tribunal^#3 crime^#4 Ukraine^#5", ">\n\nI think that's a fantastic idea.", ">\n\n“This aggression will not stand, man”\n-The Dude\n -Baerbock", ">\n\nPutin's a nihilist?", ">\n\nNoooo funny business, Putbowski", ">\n\nWe ba-lieve in nassing…", ">\n\nI think Putin feels he is above all that, he is untouchable. IMHO the only hope to end the war is for Putin to commit suicide or be assassinated.", ">\n\nKill Putin, someone else will be put in place by the oligarchs. You won't change too much.", ">\n\nI don't think that would happen. The oligarchs likely don't have the megalomaniac inclination Putin has. I don't see them wanting to continue down the road of attaching Ukraine.\nAlthough In the long run, I don't see Russia as becoming a \"nice\" country.", ">\n\nBaerbock proposes special tribunal to fuck the Russian raw", ">\n\nAnnalena is tough, if she could, she would drag Putin by his ear to Nürnberg herself.", ">\n\nShe’s one of the few German politicians I’m really fond of. It’s no wonder why the Greens are doing so well in the polls", ">\n\nMy family keeps hating on her because she misspoke like once or twice in front of the press. They literally do not have one real point of attack, no valid criticism, so they have to resort to personal attacks. It's sad. She's actually quite impressive.", ">\n\nPlagiarized her book? Faked her resume? Spouse became a lobbyist? I mean, she joins a long list of German politicians in these, but she’s not exactly unbefleckt.", ">\n\nWhy stop with Russian leadership? Going after everyone involved in Russian military, logistics, and State media disinformation may have serious affects on there mobilization capacity.", ">\n\nQuestion. What actual crime can they charge Russian State Media personalities with?\nThe West cant find the legal means to deal with sources of misinformation in their own countries, I struggle to see how they can deal with sources of misinformation in another country?", ">\n\nPropaganda organs have been prosecuted as accessory for crimes against humanity in the past.\nThis is actually what the Nuremberg trials were about: how can you proescute a country based on laws that were LEGAL in said country? By which authority do you judge?\nThis is how human rights were even established: laws universial to every human, regardless of national laws. Human laws trump national laws, regardless of where or if that country is not even a signatory to any human rights convention (since there weren't any at the end of WW2).\nAnd this is ALSO why most of the EU has \"anti hate-speech\" laws as they are considered a human rights violation. Or at least as \"preparing the way to make human rights violations acceptable\".", ">\n\nI can see him sitting on a stool without handles to hold on to, in a little glascage, alone, and outside all the people he have singlehanded made widows, childless, fatherless, motherless, quietly starring at him while they each poor a little bottle of water into a hole that slowly fill the cage, staring him right in his scared little face without anyone there to help him, no need for a tribunal...", ">\n\nI hate this kind of talk. due process and a permanent, wide open public record of everything he's responsible for is the way. \nthen Germany can reactivate Spandau for him.", ">\n\nIt's very disturbing how some comments on Reddit really read like some sociopathic behavior. It's not the first time someone promotes torture here.", ">\n\n\nman who lived by the sword is proposed to die by the sword\nNooooo, not the heckin' human rightserinooooos", ">\n\nThat's the point, we need to stay better than those we condemned otherwise we're just hypocrites.", ">\n\nIf that was true, the penalty for forcible confinement couldn't be imprisonment.", ">\n\nThis is a BS idea because “we” will never be able to imprison Putin. He will either be overthrown and die by Russian hands or he will die in Russia as president or with cover from some next dictator.\nGermany needs to stop talking about tribunals and start sending tanks to Ukraine already.Focus on how you can help the Ukrainian people now , don’t offer some utopian solution that has no basis in reality.", ">\n\nIMO there’s a nonzero chance a new Russian leader might hand Putin over to get into the West‘s good graces.", ">\n\nWho might that new leader be? Anyone who has the power to force a change is just as culpable. There is no central opposition to unite and lead the masses so any popular revolt will be picked apart bit by bit.", ">\n\nHey, I never said anything about making actual changes!\nHonestly though: No clue. It's an incredibly unlikely scenario anyways.", ">\n\nPutins gonna get fucked baerbock.", ">\n\nSuch measures are probably counterproductive because it will just make it less likely than Putin will give up and instead will fight to the bitter end.\nOf course such charges could also be negotiated away in order to try to get Putin to give up. Basically if he quits he can go into exile.", ">\n\nWhere was this proposal when the Bush administration was invading Iraq?", ">\n\nNo one complains when the Power Rangers destroys the aliens with the Megazord. Good guys get a free pass", ">\n\nIs Germany going to go into Russia and bring these people to justice?\nThe answer is no. This is just (empty) political theatre.", ">\n\nGermany going into Russia is probably the only way Putin could actually still win this war", ">\n\nFinally, someone grew a pair!", ">\n\nIf you didt noticed putin doesn give a fuck", ">\n\nRussia is still one of the Great Powers. Nobody will go to arrest him without taking a nuke to the face.", ">\n\nHuh? It's a regional power at best." ]

[ "They can offer Nuremberg. It has the premises ready", ">\n\nWould be truly symbolic, not that there would be any chance to extract Putin and his cronies from Russia, while it still possesses nukes...", ">\n\nThere is certainly a chance. There are 147 million people in the Russian federation. They can throw 147 into the court system. A court system which will give those 147 men the opportunity to defend themselves and to face consequences only for actions which those 147 men are actually guilty of and no more. In exchange Russia gets the opportunity to participate in global civilization and share the freedom and prosperity. If they do not take the offer the Russian people have to languish under the despotism of those same 147 criminals. \nI do not know the odds but they are greater than zero.", ">\n\nI don't mean to shit on your idea because it isn't bad, it's just unrealistic. First off, you know those 147 men would consist of critics of Putin and journalists he was already about to assassinate anyway.\nBut the even bigger issue is the assumption that they would want to participate in this current global civilization. Putin banked all his capital on the \"history is written by the victor\" sentiment, not to mention the shared sentiment with China of forcing their perception on other nations with weaponized hypocrisy.\nPutin will never admit that his invasion failed, or that he committed war crimes or give up land. He wants to fight until the rest of the world is fatigued enough to concede and admit defeat to just end this already.\nAnd while it's definitely a condemnable attitude, he wouldn't stick to this if it weren't normalized in the past. The Crimea has been annexed since 2014, yet it was more convenient for everyone to just agree that \"those aren't Russian army men\" even though of course they were.\nSame with China putting pressure on the West to turn a blind eye on its' many questionable practices.\nYou can't just roll over and allow autocrats to do whatever and then expect them to suddenly respect you.", ">\n\nI meant Putin can be overthrown. The new administration rounds up the former leadership. \n\nYou can't just roll over and allow autocrats to do whatever and then expect them to suddenly respect you.\n\nBut a people can overthrow their autocratic regime and then become a respected nation.", ">\n\nHe can, but if you look at the timeline of the Russian Revolution of 1917 as a timeline, that ain't exactly a quick process either", ">\n\nCall me when they have Putin in custody. \nHe gives zero shits if his top people end up going to prison for war crimes. \nAnd there’s no way the war doesn’t end without:\n\nPutin dead \nPutin negotiating a deal where he never is held personally responsible. \n\nIt’s right in the dictator handbook. If you kill enough people, other countries will offer to give you a pass just to get you to stop.", ">\n\nHes only going to use it as propaganda, like \"evil west wants to judge me for defending mother russia\".", ">\n\nWhile I agree he should be held accountable, what are they going to do? Walk up to the Kremlin with 20 cops knock on the door and arrest him? This is nothing", ">\n\nNo. The Russians will do that.", ">\n\nI’m not 100% sure about that he’s put fear and blind loyalty in the right places", ">\n\nFear yes! Loyalty I'm not so sure. Seems like those most loyal have had some tragic and fatal accidents as of late. Price of failure I guess. But I'm more sure that those that remain are doing so more out of complete fear than anything else. Putin has everyone guessing who is truly loyal that everyone is too afraid to band together with the other fearful to remove him.", ">\n\nNah some of them mf act like golom and vlad is the god damn ring", ">\n\nNuremberg would be a great location.", ">\n\nThis is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 72%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nTHE HAGUE - The international community should establish a special tribunal to bring Russian President Vladimir Putin and his regime to trial over their war of aggression against Ukraine, German Foreign Minister Annalena Baerbock said Monday.\nIn a keynote speech following a visit to the International Criminal Court in The Hague, Baerbock emphasized the need to hold the Russian leadership \"Accountable\" for their invasion, which started almost a year ago.\nTo avoid this impasse, Baerbock said she wanted to form, together with partner countries, \"a special tribunal\" to address the crime of aggression against Ukraine that could investigate and try the Russian leadership.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: international^#1 Court^#2 tribunal^#3 crime^#4 Ukraine^#5", ">\n\nI think that's a fantastic idea.", ">\n\n“This aggression will not stand, man”\n-The Dude\n -Baerbock", ">\n\nPutin's a nihilist?", ">\n\nNoooo funny business, Putbowski", ">\n\nWe ba-lieve in nassing…", ">\n\nI think Putin feels he is above all that, he is untouchable. IMHO the only hope to end the war is for Putin to commit suicide or be assassinated.", ">\n\nKill Putin, someone else will be put in place by the oligarchs. You won't change too much.", ">\n\nI don't think that would happen. The oligarchs likely don't have the megalomaniac inclination Putin has. I don't see them wanting to continue down the road of attaching Ukraine.\nAlthough In the long run, I don't see Russia as becoming a \"nice\" country.", ">\n\nBaerbock proposes special tribunal to fuck the Russian raw", ">\n\nAnnalena is tough, if she could, she would drag Putin by his ear to Nürnberg herself.", ">\n\nShe’s one of the few German politicians I’m really fond of. It’s no wonder why the Greens are doing so well in the polls", ">\n\nMy family keeps hating on her because she misspoke like once or twice in front of the press. They literally do not have one real point of attack, no valid criticism, so they have to resort to personal attacks. It's sad. She's actually quite impressive.", ">\n\nPlagiarized her book? Faked her resume? Spouse became a lobbyist? I mean, she joins a long list of German politicians in these, but she’s not exactly unbefleckt.", ">\n\nWhy stop with Russian leadership? Going after everyone involved in Russian military, logistics, and State media disinformation may have serious affects on there mobilization capacity.", ">\n\nQuestion. What actual crime can they charge Russian State Media personalities with?\nThe West cant find the legal means to deal with sources of misinformation in their own countries, I struggle to see how they can deal with sources of misinformation in another country?", ">\n\nPropaganda organs have been prosecuted as accessory for crimes against humanity in the past.\nThis is actually what the Nuremberg trials were about: how can you proescute a country based on laws that were LEGAL in said country? By which authority do you judge?\nThis is how human rights were even established: laws universial to every human, regardless of national laws. Human laws trump national laws, regardless of where or if that country is not even a signatory to any human rights convention (since there weren't any at the end of WW2).\nAnd this is ALSO why most of the EU has \"anti hate-speech\" laws as they are considered a human rights violation. Or at least as \"preparing the way to make human rights violations acceptable\".", ">\n\nI can see him sitting on a stool without handles to hold on to, in a little glascage, alone, and outside all the people he have singlehanded made widows, childless, fatherless, motherless, quietly starring at him while they each poor a little bottle of water into a hole that slowly fill the cage, staring him right in his scared little face without anyone there to help him, no need for a tribunal...", ">\n\nI hate this kind of talk. due process and a permanent, wide open public record of everything he's responsible for is the way. \nthen Germany can reactivate Spandau for him.", ">\n\nIt's very disturbing how some comments on Reddit really read like some sociopathic behavior. It's not the first time someone promotes torture here.", ">\n\n\nman who lived by the sword is proposed to die by the sword\nNooooo, not the heckin' human rightserinooooos", ">\n\nThat's the point, we need to stay better than those we condemned otherwise we're just hypocrites.", ">\n\nIf that was true, the penalty for forcible confinement couldn't be imprisonment.", ">\n\nThis is a BS idea because “we” will never be able to imprison Putin. He will either be overthrown and die by Russian hands or he will die in Russia as president or with cover from some next dictator.\nGermany needs to stop talking about tribunals and start sending tanks to Ukraine already.Focus on how you can help the Ukrainian people now , don’t offer some utopian solution that has no basis in reality.", ">\n\nIMO there’s a nonzero chance a new Russian leader might hand Putin over to get into the West‘s good graces.", ">\n\nWho might that new leader be? Anyone who has the power to force a change is just as culpable. There is no central opposition to unite and lead the masses so any popular revolt will be picked apart bit by bit.", ">\n\nHey, I never said anything about making actual changes!\nHonestly though: No clue. It's an incredibly unlikely scenario anyways.", ">\n\nPutins gonna get fucked baerbock.", ">\n\nSuch measures are probably counterproductive because it will just make it less likely than Putin will give up and instead will fight to the bitter end.\nOf course such charges could also be negotiated away in order to try to get Putin to give up. Basically if he quits he can go into exile.", ">\n\nWhere was this proposal when the Bush administration was invading Iraq?", ">\n\nNo one complains when the Power Rangers destroys the aliens with the Megazord. Good guys get a free pass", ">\n\nIs Germany going to go into Russia and bring these people to justice?\nThe answer is no. This is just (empty) political theatre.", ">\n\nGermany going into Russia is probably the only way Putin could actually still win this war", ">\n\nFinally, someone grew a pair!", ">\n\nIf you didt noticed putin doesn give a fuck", ">\n\nRussia is still one of the Great Powers. Nobody will go to arrest him without taking a nuke to the face.", ">\n\nHuh? It's a regional power at best.", ">\n\nWhat else are there? The US and China are the only Superpowers. The only Great Powers of Europe that remain are because of their militaries including nukes. It is why Germany is no more a great power, and it had no colonies anymore. The UK has its possessions, so do France, and Russia its Near Abroad. Everyone else may have some armies but not nukes enough and no colonies." ]

[ "They can offer Nuremberg. It has the premises ready", ">\n\nWould be truly symbolic, not that there would be any chance to extract Putin and his cronies from Russia, while it still possesses nukes...", ">\n\nThere is certainly a chance. There are 147 million people in the Russian federation. They can throw 147 into the court system. A court system which will give those 147 men the opportunity to defend themselves and to face consequences only for actions which those 147 men are actually guilty of and no more. In exchange Russia gets the opportunity to participate in global civilization and share the freedom and prosperity. If they do not take the offer the Russian people have to languish under the despotism of those same 147 criminals. \nI do not know the odds but they are greater than zero.", ">\n\nI don't mean to shit on your idea because it isn't bad, it's just unrealistic. First off, you know those 147 men would consist of critics of Putin and journalists he was already about to assassinate anyway.\nBut the even bigger issue is the assumption that they would want to participate in this current global civilization. Putin banked all his capital on the \"history is written by the victor\" sentiment, not to mention the shared sentiment with China of forcing their perception on other nations with weaponized hypocrisy.\nPutin will never admit that his invasion failed, or that he committed war crimes or give up land. He wants to fight until the rest of the world is fatigued enough to concede and admit defeat to just end this already.\nAnd while it's definitely a condemnable attitude, he wouldn't stick to this if it weren't normalized in the past. The Crimea has been annexed since 2014, yet it was more convenient for everyone to just agree that \"those aren't Russian army men\" even though of course they were.\nSame with China putting pressure on the West to turn a blind eye on its' many questionable practices.\nYou can't just roll over and allow autocrats to do whatever and then expect them to suddenly respect you.", ">\n\nI meant Putin can be overthrown. The new administration rounds up the former leadership. \n\nYou can't just roll over and allow autocrats to do whatever and then expect them to suddenly respect you.\n\nBut a people can overthrow their autocratic regime and then become a respected nation.", ">\n\nHe can, but if you look at the timeline of the Russian Revolution of 1917 as a timeline, that ain't exactly a quick process either", ">\n\nCall me when they have Putin in custody. \nHe gives zero shits if his top people end up going to prison for war crimes. \nAnd there’s no way the war doesn’t end without:\n\nPutin dead \nPutin negotiating a deal where he never is held personally responsible. \n\nIt’s right in the dictator handbook. If you kill enough people, other countries will offer to give you a pass just to get you to stop.", ">\n\nHes only going to use it as propaganda, like \"evil west wants to judge me for defending mother russia\".", ">\n\nWhile I agree he should be held accountable, what are they going to do? Walk up to the Kremlin with 20 cops knock on the door and arrest him? This is nothing", ">\n\nNo. The Russians will do that.", ">\n\nI’m not 100% sure about that he’s put fear and blind loyalty in the right places", ">\n\nFear yes! Loyalty I'm not so sure. Seems like those most loyal have had some tragic and fatal accidents as of late. Price of failure I guess. But I'm more sure that those that remain are doing so more out of complete fear than anything else. Putin has everyone guessing who is truly loyal that everyone is too afraid to band together with the other fearful to remove him.", ">\n\nNah some of them mf act like golom and vlad is the god damn ring", ">\n\nNuremberg would be a great location.", ">\n\nThis is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 72%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nTHE HAGUE - The international community should establish a special tribunal to bring Russian President Vladimir Putin and his regime to trial over their war of aggression against Ukraine, German Foreign Minister Annalena Baerbock said Monday.\nIn a keynote speech following a visit to the International Criminal Court in The Hague, Baerbock emphasized the need to hold the Russian leadership \"Accountable\" for their invasion, which started almost a year ago.\nTo avoid this impasse, Baerbock said she wanted to form, together with partner countries, \"a special tribunal\" to address the crime of aggression against Ukraine that could investigate and try the Russian leadership.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: international^#1 Court^#2 tribunal^#3 crime^#4 Ukraine^#5", ">\n\nI think that's a fantastic idea.", ">\n\n“This aggression will not stand, man”\n-The Dude\n -Baerbock", ">\n\nPutin's a nihilist?", ">\n\nNoooo funny business, Putbowski", ">\n\nWe ba-lieve in nassing…", ">\n\nI think Putin feels he is above all that, he is untouchable. IMHO the only hope to end the war is for Putin to commit suicide or be assassinated.", ">\n\nKill Putin, someone else will be put in place by the oligarchs. You won't change too much.", ">\n\nI don't think that would happen. The oligarchs likely don't have the megalomaniac inclination Putin has. I don't see them wanting to continue down the road of attaching Ukraine.\nAlthough In the long run, I don't see Russia as becoming a \"nice\" country.", ">\n\nBaerbock proposes special tribunal to fuck the Russian raw", ">\n\nAnnalena is tough, if she could, she would drag Putin by his ear to Nürnberg herself.", ">\n\nShe’s one of the few German politicians I’m really fond of. It’s no wonder why the Greens are doing so well in the polls", ">\n\nMy family keeps hating on her because she misspoke like once or twice in front of the press. They literally do not have one real point of attack, no valid criticism, so they have to resort to personal attacks. It's sad. She's actually quite impressive.", ">\n\nPlagiarized her book? Faked her resume? Spouse became a lobbyist? I mean, she joins a long list of German politicians in these, but she’s not exactly unbefleckt.", ">\n\nWhy stop with Russian leadership? Going after everyone involved in Russian military, logistics, and State media disinformation may have serious affects on there mobilization capacity.", ">\n\nQuestion. What actual crime can they charge Russian State Media personalities with?\nThe West cant find the legal means to deal with sources of misinformation in their own countries, I struggle to see how they can deal with sources of misinformation in another country?", ">\n\nPropaganda organs have been prosecuted as accessory for crimes against humanity in the past.\nThis is actually what the Nuremberg trials were about: how can you proescute a country based on laws that were LEGAL in said country? By which authority do you judge?\nThis is how human rights were even established: laws universial to every human, regardless of national laws. Human laws trump national laws, regardless of where or if that country is not even a signatory to any human rights convention (since there weren't any at the end of WW2).\nAnd this is ALSO why most of the EU has \"anti hate-speech\" laws as they are considered a human rights violation. Or at least as \"preparing the way to make human rights violations acceptable\".", ">\n\nI can see him sitting on a stool without handles to hold on to, in a little glascage, alone, and outside all the people he have singlehanded made widows, childless, fatherless, motherless, quietly starring at him while they each poor a little bottle of water into a hole that slowly fill the cage, staring him right in his scared little face without anyone there to help him, no need for a tribunal...", ">\n\nI hate this kind of talk. due process and a permanent, wide open public record of everything he's responsible for is the way. \nthen Germany can reactivate Spandau for him.", ">\n\nIt's very disturbing how some comments on Reddit really read like some sociopathic behavior. It's not the first time someone promotes torture here.", ">\n\n\nman who lived by the sword is proposed to die by the sword\nNooooo, not the heckin' human rightserinooooos", ">\n\nThat's the point, we need to stay better than those we condemned otherwise we're just hypocrites.", ">\n\nIf that was true, the penalty for forcible confinement couldn't be imprisonment.", ">\n\nThis is a BS idea because “we” will never be able to imprison Putin. He will either be overthrown and die by Russian hands or he will die in Russia as president or with cover from some next dictator.\nGermany needs to stop talking about tribunals and start sending tanks to Ukraine already.Focus on how you can help the Ukrainian people now , don’t offer some utopian solution that has no basis in reality.", ">\n\nIMO there’s a nonzero chance a new Russian leader might hand Putin over to get into the West‘s good graces.", ">\n\nWho might that new leader be? Anyone who has the power to force a change is just as culpable. There is no central opposition to unite and lead the masses so any popular revolt will be picked apart bit by bit.", ">\n\nHey, I never said anything about making actual changes!\nHonestly though: No clue. It's an incredibly unlikely scenario anyways.", ">\n\nPutins gonna get fucked baerbock.", ">\n\nSuch measures are probably counterproductive because it will just make it less likely than Putin will give up and instead will fight to the bitter end.\nOf course such charges could also be negotiated away in order to try to get Putin to give up. Basically if he quits he can go into exile.", ">\n\nWhere was this proposal when the Bush administration was invading Iraq?", ">\n\nNo one complains when the Power Rangers destroys the aliens with the Megazord. Good guys get a free pass", ">\n\nIs Germany going to go into Russia and bring these people to justice?\nThe answer is no. This is just (empty) political theatre.", ">\n\nGermany going into Russia is probably the only way Putin could actually still win this war", ">\n\nFinally, someone grew a pair!", ">\n\nIf you didt noticed putin doesn give a fuck", ">\n\nRussia is still one of the Great Powers. Nobody will go to arrest him without taking a nuke to the face.", ">\n\nHuh? It's a regional power at best.", ">\n\nWhat else are there? The US and China are the only Superpowers. The only Great Powers of Europe that remain are because of their militaries including nukes. It is why Germany is no more a great power, and it had no colonies anymore. The UK has its possessions, so do France, and Russia its Near Abroad. Everyone else may have some armies but not nukes enough and no colonies.", ">\n\nOh now there’s consequences? So before now there were no consequences?" ]

[ "They can offer Nuremberg. It has the premises ready", ">\n\nWould be truly symbolic, not that there would be any chance to extract Putin and his cronies from Russia, while it still possesses nukes...", ">\n\nThere is certainly a chance. There are 147 million people in the Russian federation. They can throw 147 into the court system. A court system which will give those 147 men the opportunity to defend themselves and to face consequences only for actions which those 147 men are actually guilty of and no more. In exchange Russia gets the opportunity to participate in global civilization and share the freedom and prosperity. If they do not take the offer the Russian people have to languish under the despotism of those same 147 criminals. \nI do not know the odds but they are greater than zero.", ">\n\nI don't mean to shit on your idea because it isn't bad, it's just unrealistic. First off, you know those 147 men would consist of critics of Putin and journalists he was already about to assassinate anyway.\nBut the even bigger issue is the assumption that they would want to participate in this current global civilization. Putin banked all his capital on the \"history is written by the victor\" sentiment, not to mention the shared sentiment with China of forcing their perception on other nations with weaponized hypocrisy.\nPutin will never admit that his invasion failed, or that he committed war crimes or give up land. He wants to fight until the rest of the world is fatigued enough to concede and admit defeat to just end this already.\nAnd while it's definitely a condemnable attitude, he wouldn't stick to this if it weren't normalized in the past. The Crimea has been annexed since 2014, yet it was more convenient for everyone to just agree that \"those aren't Russian army men\" even though of course they were.\nSame with China putting pressure on the West to turn a blind eye on its' many questionable practices.\nYou can't just roll over and allow autocrats to do whatever and then expect them to suddenly respect you.", ">\n\nI meant Putin can be overthrown. The new administration rounds up the former leadership. \n\nYou can't just roll over and allow autocrats to do whatever and then expect them to suddenly respect you.\n\nBut a people can overthrow their autocratic regime and then become a respected nation.", ">\n\nHe can, but if you look at the timeline of the Russian Revolution of 1917 as a timeline, that ain't exactly a quick process either", ">\n\nCall me when they have Putin in custody. \nHe gives zero shits if his top people end up going to prison for war crimes. \nAnd there’s no way the war doesn’t end without:\n\nPutin dead \nPutin negotiating a deal where he never is held personally responsible. \n\nIt’s right in the dictator handbook. If you kill enough people, other countries will offer to give you a pass just to get you to stop.", ">\n\nHes only going to use it as propaganda, like \"evil west wants to judge me for defending mother russia\".", ">\n\nWhile I agree he should be held accountable, what are they going to do? Walk up to the Kremlin with 20 cops knock on the door and arrest him? This is nothing", ">\n\nNo. The Russians will do that.", ">\n\nI’m not 100% sure about that he’s put fear and blind loyalty in the right places", ">\n\nFear yes! Loyalty I'm not so sure. Seems like those most loyal have had some tragic and fatal accidents as of late. Price of failure I guess. But I'm more sure that those that remain are doing so more out of complete fear than anything else. Putin has everyone guessing who is truly loyal that everyone is too afraid to band together with the other fearful to remove him.", ">\n\nNah some of them mf act like golom and vlad is the god damn ring", ">\n\nNuremberg would be a great location.", ">\n\nThis is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 72%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nTHE HAGUE - The international community should establish a special tribunal to bring Russian President Vladimir Putin and his regime to trial over their war of aggression against Ukraine, German Foreign Minister Annalena Baerbock said Monday.\nIn a keynote speech following a visit to the International Criminal Court in The Hague, Baerbock emphasized the need to hold the Russian leadership \"Accountable\" for their invasion, which started almost a year ago.\nTo avoid this impasse, Baerbock said she wanted to form, together with partner countries, \"a special tribunal\" to address the crime of aggression against Ukraine that could investigate and try the Russian leadership.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: international^#1 Court^#2 tribunal^#3 crime^#4 Ukraine^#5", ">\n\nI think that's a fantastic idea.", ">\n\n“This aggression will not stand, man”\n-The Dude\n -Baerbock", ">\n\nPutin's a nihilist?", ">\n\nNoooo funny business, Putbowski", ">\n\nWe ba-lieve in nassing…", ">\n\nI think Putin feels he is above all that, he is untouchable. IMHO the only hope to end the war is for Putin to commit suicide or be assassinated.", ">\n\nKill Putin, someone else will be put in place by the oligarchs. You won't change too much.", ">\n\nI don't think that would happen. The oligarchs likely don't have the megalomaniac inclination Putin has. I don't see them wanting to continue down the road of attaching Ukraine.\nAlthough In the long run, I don't see Russia as becoming a \"nice\" country.", ">\n\nBaerbock proposes special tribunal to fuck the Russian raw", ">\n\nAnnalena is tough, if she could, she would drag Putin by his ear to Nürnberg herself.", ">\n\nShe’s one of the few German politicians I’m really fond of. It’s no wonder why the Greens are doing so well in the polls", ">\n\nMy family keeps hating on her because she misspoke like once or twice in front of the press. They literally do not have one real point of attack, no valid criticism, so they have to resort to personal attacks. It's sad. She's actually quite impressive.", ">\n\nPlagiarized her book? Faked her resume? Spouse became a lobbyist? I mean, she joins a long list of German politicians in these, but she’s not exactly unbefleckt.", ">\n\nWhy stop with Russian leadership? Going after everyone involved in Russian military, logistics, and State media disinformation may have serious affects on there mobilization capacity.", ">\n\nQuestion. What actual crime can they charge Russian State Media personalities with?\nThe West cant find the legal means to deal with sources of misinformation in their own countries, I struggle to see how they can deal with sources of misinformation in another country?", ">\n\nPropaganda organs have been prosecuted as accessory for crimes against humanity in the past.\nThis is actually what the Nuremberg trials were about: how can you proescute a country based on laws that were LEGAL in said country? By which authority do you judge?\nThis is how human rights were even established: laws universial to every human, regardless of national laws. Human laws trump national laws, regardless of where or if that country is not even a signatory to any human rights convention (since there weren't any at the end of WW2).\nAnd this is ALSO why most of the EU has \"anti hate-speech\" laws as they are considered a human rights violation. Or at least as \"preparing the way to make human rights violations acceptable\".", ">\n\nI can see him sitting on a stool without handles to hold on to, in a little glascage, alone, and outside all the people he have singlehanded made widows, childless, fatherless, motherless, quietly starring at him while they each poor a little bottle of water into a hole that slowly fill the cage, staring him right in his scared little face without anyone there to help him, no need for a tribunal...", ">\n\nI hate this kind of talk. due process and a permanent, wide open public record of everything he's responsible for is the way. \nthen Germany can reactivate Spandau for him.", ">\n\nIt's very disturbing how some comments on Reddit really read like some sociopathic behavior. It's not the first time someone promotes torture here.", ">\n\n\nman who lived by the sword is proposed to die by the sword\nNooooo, not the heckin' human rightserinooooos", ">\n\nThat's the point, we need to stay better than those we condemned otherwise we're just hypocrites.", ">\n\nIf that was true, the penalty for forcible confinement couldn't be imprisonment.", ">\n\nThis is a BS idea because “we” will never be able to imprison Putin. He will either be overthrown and die by Russian hands or he will die in Russia as president or with cover from some next dictator.\nGermany needs to stop talking about tribunals and start sending tanks to Ukraine already.Focus on how you can help the Ukrainian people now , don’t offer some utopian solution that has no basis in reality.", ">\n\nIMO there’s a nonzero chance a new Russian leader might hand Putin over to get into the West‘s good graces.", ">\n\nWho might that new leader be? Anyone who has the power to force a change is just as culpable. There is no central opposition to unite and lead the masses so any popular revolt will be picked apart bit by bit.", ">\n\nHey, I never said anything about making actual changes!\nHonestly though: No clue. It's an incredibly unlikely scenario anyways.", ">\n\nPutins gonna get fucked baerbock.", ">\n\nSuch measures are probably counterproductive because it will just make it less likely than Putin will give up and instead will fight to the bitter end.\nOf course such charges could also be negotiated away in order to try to get Putin to give up. Basically if he quits he can go into exile.", ">\n\nWhere was this proposal when the Bush administration was invading Iraq?", ">\n\nNo one complains when the Power Rangers destroys the aliens with the Megazord. Good guys get a free pass", ">\n\nIs Germany going to go into Russia and bring these people to justice?\nThe answer is no. This is just (empty) political theatre.", ">\n\nGermany going into Russia is probably the only way Putin could actually still win this war", ">\n\nFinally, someone grew a pair!", ">\n\nIf you didt noticed putin doesn give a fuck", ">\n\nRussia is still one of the Great Powers. Nobody will go to arrest him without taking a nuke to the face.", ">\n\nHuh? It's a regional power at best.", ">\n\nWhat else are there? The US and China are the only Superpowers. The only Great Powers of Europe that remain are because of their militaries including nukes. It is why Germany is no more a great power, and it had no colonies anymore. The UK has its possessions, so do France, and Russia its Near Abroad. Everyone else may have some armies but not nukes enough and no colonies.", ">\n\nOh now there’s consequences? So before now there were no consequences?", ">\n\nNow if only Germany stopped stalling and blocking others from delivering equipment Ukraine needs to make it happen that would be great." ]

[ "They can offer Nuremberg. It has the premises ready", ">\n\nWould be truly symbolic, not that there would be any chance to extract Putin and his cronies from Russia, while it still possesses nukes...", ">\n\nThere is certainly a chance. There are 147 million people in the Russian federation. They can throw 147 into the court system. A court system which will give those 147 men the opportunity to defend themselves and to face consequences only for actions which those 147 men are actually guilty of and no more. In exchange Russia gets the opportunity to participate in global civilization and share the freedom and prosperity. If they do not take the offer the Russian people have to languish under the despotism of those same 147 criminals. \nI do not know the odds but they are greater than zero.", ">\n\nI don't mean to shit on your idea because it isn't bad, it's just unrealistic. First off, you know those 147 men would consist of critics of Putin and journalists he was already about to assassinate anyway.\nBut the even bigger issue is the assumption that they would want to participate in this current global civilization. Putin banked all his capital on the \"history is written by the victor\" sentiment, not to mention the shared sentiment with China of forcing their perception on other nations with weaponized hypocrisy.\nPutin will never admit that his invasion failed, or that he committed war crimes or give up land. He wants to fight until the rest of the world is fatigued enough to concede and admit defeat to just end this already.\nAnd while it's definitely a condemnable attitude, he wouldn't stick to this if it weren't normalized in the past. The Crimea has been annexed since 2014, yet it was more convenient for everyone to just agree that \"those aren't Russian army men\" even though of course they were.\nSame with China putting pressure on the West to turn a blind eye on its' many questionable practices.\nYou can't just roll over and allow autocrats to do whatever and then expect them to suddenly respect you.", ">\n\nI meant Putin can be overthrown. The new administration rounds up the former leadership. \n\nYou can't just roll over and allow autocrats to do whatever and then expect them to suddenly respect you.\n\nBut a people can overthrow their autocratic regime and then become a respected nation.", ">\n\nHe can, but if you look at the timeline of the Russian Revolution of 1917 as a timeline, that ain't exactly a quick process either", ">\n\nCall me when they have Putin in custody. \nHe gives zero shits if his top people end up going to prison for war crimes. \nAnd there’s no way the war doesn’t end without:\n\nPutin dead \nPutin negotiating a deal where he never is held personally responsible. \n\nIt’s right in the dictator handbook. If you kill enough people, other countries will offer to give you a pass just to get you to stop.", ">\n\nHes only going to use it as propaganda, like \"evil west wants to judge me for defending mother russia\".", ">\n\nWhile I agree he should be held accountable, what are they going to do? Walk up to the Kremlin with 20 cops knock on the door and arrest him? This is nothing", ">\n\nNo. The Russians will do that.", ">\n\nI’m not 100% sure about that he’s put fear and blind loyalty in the right places", ">\n\nFear yes! Loyalty I'm not so sure. Seems like those most loyal have had some tragic and fatal accidents as of late. Price of failure I guess. But I'm more sure that those that remain are doing so more out of complete fear than anything else. Putin has everyone guessing who is truly loyal that everyone is too afraid to band together with the other fearful to remove him.", ">\n\nNah some of them mf act like golom and vlad is the god damn ring", ">\n\nNuremberg would be a great location.", ">\n\nThis is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 72%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nTHE HAGUE - The international community should establish a special tribunal to bring Russian President Vladimir Putin and his regime to trial over their war of aggression against Ukraine, German Foreign Minister Annalena Baerbock said Monday.\nIn a keynote speech following a visit to the International Criminal Court in The Hague, Baerbock emphasized the need to hold the Russian leadership \"Accountable\" for their invasion, which started almost a year ago.\nTo avoid this impasse, Baerbock said she wanted to form, together with partner countries, \"a special tribunal\" to address the crime of aggression against Ukraine that could investigate and try the Russian leadership.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: international^#1 Court^#2 tribunal^#3 crime^#4 Ukraine^#5", ">\n\nI think that's a fantastic idea.", ">\n\n“This aggression will not stand, man”\n-The Dude\n -Baerbock", ">\n\nPutin's a nihilist?", ">\n\nNoooo funny business, Putbowski", ">\n\nWe ba-lieve in nassing…", ">\n\nI think Putin feels he is above all that, he is untouchable. IMHO the only hope to end the war is for Putin to commit suicide or be assassinated.", ">\n\nKill Putin, someone else will be put in place by the oligarchs. You won't change too much.", ">\n\nI don't think that would happen. The oligarchs likely don't have the megalomaniac inclination Putin has. I don't see them wanting to continue down the road of attaching Ukraine.\nAlthough In the long run, I don't see Russia as becoming a \"nice\" country.", ">\n\nBaerbock proposes special tribunal to fuck the Russian raw", ">\n\nAnnalena is tough, if she could, she would drag Putin by his ear to Nürnberg herself.", ">\n\nShe’s one of the few German politicians I’m really fond of. It’s no wonder why the Greens are doing so well in the polls", ">\n\nMy family keeps hating on her because she misspoke like once or twice in front of the press. They literally do not have one real point of attack, no valid criticism, so they have to resort to personal attacks. It's sad. She's actually quite impressive.", ">\n\nPlagiarized her book? Faked her resume? Spouse became a lobbyist? I mean, she joins a long list of German politicians in these, but she’s not exactly unbefleckt.", ">\n\nWhy stop with Russian leadership? Going after everyone involved in Russian military, logistics, and State media disinformation may have serious affects on there mobilization capacity.", ">\n\nQuestion. What actual crime can they charge Russian State Media personalities with?\nThe West cant find the legal means to deal with sources of misinformation in their own countries, I struggle to see how they can deal with sources of misinformation in another country?", ">\n\nPropaganda organs have been prosecuted as accessory for crimes against humanity in the past.\nThis is actually what the Nuremberg trials were about: how can you proescute a country based on laws that were LEGAL in said country? By which authority do you judge?\nThis is how human rights were even established: laws universial to every human, regardless of national laws. Human laws trump national laws, regardless of where or if that country is not even a signatory to any human rights convention (since there weren't any at the end of WW2).\nAnd this is ALSO why most of the EU has \"anti hate-speech\" laws as they are considered a human rights violation. Or at least as \"preparing the way to make human rights violations acceptable\".", ">\n\nI can see him sitting on a stool without handles to hold on to, in a little glascage, alone, and outside all the people he have singlehanded made widows, childless, fatherless, motherless, quietly starring at him while they each poor a little bottle of water into a hole that slowly fill the cage, staring him right in his scared little face without anyone there to help him, no need for a tribunal...", ">\n\nI hate this kind of talk. due process and a permanent, wide open public record of everything he's responsible for is the way. \nthen Germany can reactivate Spandau for him.", ">\n\nIt's very disturbing how some comments on Reddit really read like some sociopathic behavior. It's not the first time someone promotes torture here.", ">\n\n\nman who lived by the sword is proposed to die by the sword\nNooooo, not the heckin' human rightserinooooos", ">\n\nThat's the point, we need to stay better than those we condemned otherwise we're just hypocrites.", ">\n\nIf that was true, the penalty for forcible confinement couldn't be imprisonment.", ">\n\nThis is a BS idea because “we” will never be able to imprison Putin. He will either be overthrown and die by Russian hands or he will die in Russia as president or with cover from some next dictator.\nGermany needs to stop talking about tribunals and start sending tanks to Ukraine already.Focus on how you can help the Ukrainian people now , don’t offer some utopian solution that has no basis in reality.", ">\n\nIMO there’s a nonzero chance a new Russian leader might hand Putin over to get into the West‘s good graces.", ">\n\nWho might that new leader be? Anyone who has the power to force a change is just as culpable. There is no central opposition to unite and lead the masses so any popular revolt will be picked apart bit by bit.", ">\n\nHey, I never said anything about making actual changes!\nHonestly though: No clue. It's an incredibly unlikely scenario anyways.", ">\n\nPutins gonna get fucked baerbock.", ">\n\nSuch measures are probably counterproductive because it will just make it less likely than Putin will give up and instead will fight to the bitter end.\nOf course such charges could also be negotiated away in order to try to get Putin to give up. Basically if he quits he can go into exile.", ">\n\nWhere was this proposal when the Bush administration was invading Iraq?", ">\n\nNo one complains when the Power Rangers destroys the aliens with the Megazord. Good guys get a free pass", ">\n\nIs Germany going to go into Russia and bring these people to justice?\nThe answer is no. This is just (empty) political theatre.", ">\n\nGermany going into Russia is probably the only way Putin could actually still win this war", ">\n\nFinally, someone grew a pair!", ">\n\nIf you didt noticed putin doesn give a fuck", ">\n\nRussia is still one of the Great Powers. Nobody will go to arrest him without taking a nuke to the face.", ">\n\nHuh? It's a regional power at best.", ">\n\nWhat else are there? The US and China are the only Superpowers. The only Great Powers of Europe that remain are because of their militaries including nukes. It is why Germany is no more a great power, and it had no colonies anymore. The UK has its possessions, so do France, and Russia its Near Abroad. Everyone else may have some armies but not nukes enough and no colonies.", ">\n\nOh now there’s consequences? So before now there were no consequences?", ">\n\nNow if only Germany stopped stalling and blocking others from delivering equipment Ukraine needs to make it happen that would be great.", ">\n\nThat'll show him /s" ]

[ "They can offer Nuremberg. It has the premises ready", ">\n\nWould be truly symbolic, not that there would be any chance to extract Putin and his cronies from Russia, while it still possesses nukes...", ">\n\nThere is certainly a chance. There are 147 million people in the Russian federation. They can throw 147 into the court system. A court system which will give those 147 men the opportunity to defend themselves and to face consequences only for actions which those 147 men are actually guilty of and no more. In exchange Russia gets the opportunity to participate in global civilization and share the freedom and prosperity. If they do not take the offer the Russian people have to languish under the despotism of those same 147 criminals. \nI do not know the odds but they are greater than zero.", ">\n\nI don't mean to shit on your idea because it isn't bad, it's just unrealistic. First off, you know those 147 men would consist of critics of Putin and journalists he was already about to assassinate anyway.\nBut the even bigger issue is the assumption that they would want to participate in this current global civilization. Putin banked all his capital on the \"history is written by the victor\" sentiment, not to mention the shared sentiment with China of forcing their perception on other nations with weaponized hypocrisy.\nPutin will never admit that his invasion failed, or that he committed war crimes or give up land. He wants to fight until the rest of the world is fatigued enough to concede and admit defeat to just end this already.\nAnd while it's definitely a condemnable attitude, he wouldn't stick to this if it weren't normalized in the past. The Crimea has been annexed since 2014, yet it was more convenient for everyone to just agree that \"those aren't Russian army men\" even though of course they were.\nSame with China putting pressure on the West to turn a blind eye on its' many questionable practices.\nYou can't just roll over and allow autocrats to do whatever and then expect them to suddenly respect you.", ">\n\nI meant Putin can be overthrown. The new administration rounds up the former leadership. \n\nYou can't just roll over and allow autocrats to do whatever and then expect them to suddenly respect you.\n\nBut a people can overthrow their autocratic regime and then become a respected nation.", ">\n\nHe can, but if you look at the timeline of the Russian Revolution of 1917 as a timeline, that ain't exactly a quick process either", ">\n\nCall me when they have Putin in custody. \nHe gives zero shits if his top people end up going to prison for war crimes. \nAnd there’s no way the war doesn’t end without:\n\nPutin dead \nPutin negotiating a deal where he never is held personally responsible. \n\nIt’s right in the dictator handbook. If you kill enough people, other countries will offer to give you a pass just to get you to stop.", ">\n\nHes only going to use it as propaganda, like \"evil west wants to judge me for defending mother russia\".", ">\n\nWhile I agree he should be held accountable, what are they going to do? Walk up to the Kremlin with 20 cops knock on the door and arrest him? This is nothing", ">\n\nNo. The Russians will do that.", ">\n\nI’m not 100% sure about that he’s put fear and blind loyalty in the right places", ">\n\nFear yes! Loyalty I'm not so sure. Seems like those most loyal have had some tragic and fatal accidents as of late. Price of failure I guess. But I'm more sure that those that remain are doing so more out of complete fear than anything else. Putin has everyone guessing who is truly loyal that everyone is too afraid to band together with the other fearful to remove him.", ">\n\nNah some of them mf act like golom and vlad is the god damn ring", ">\n\nNuremberg would be a great location.", ">\n\nThis is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 72%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nTHE HAGUE - The international community should establish a special tribunal to bring Russian President Vladimir Putin and his regime to trial over their war of aggression against Ukraine, German Foreign Minister Annalena Baerbock said Monday.\nIn a keynote speech following a visit to the International Criminal Court in The Hague, Baerbock emphasized the need to hold the Russian leadership \"Accountable\" for their invasion, which started almost a year ago.\nTo avoid this impasse, Baerbock said she wanted to form, together with partner countries, \"a special tribunal\" to address the crime of aggression against Ukraine that could investigate and try the Russian leadership.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: international^#1 Court^#2 tribunal^#3 crime^#4 Ukraine^#5", ">\n\nI think that's a fantastic idea.", ">\n\n“This aggression will not stand, man”\n-The Dude\n -Baerbock", ">\n\nPutin's a nihilist?", ">\n\nNoooo funny business, Putbowski", ">\n\nWe ba-lieve in nassing…", ">\n\nI think Putin feels he is above all that, he is untouchable. IMHO the only hope to end the war is for Putin to commit suicide or be assassinated.", ">\n\nKill Putin, someone else will be put in place by the oligarchs. You won't change too much.", ">\n\nI don't think that would happen. The oligarchs likely don't have the megalomaniac inclination Putin has. I don't see them wanting to continue down the road of attaching Ukraine.\nAlthough In the long run, I don't see Russia as becoming a \"nice\" country.", ">\n\nBaerbock proposes special tribunal to fuck the Russian raw", ">\n\nAnnalena is tough, if she could, she would drag Putin by his ear to Nürnberg herself.", ">\n\nShe’s one of the few German politicians I’m really fond of. It’s no wonder why the Greens are doing so well in the polls", ">\n\nMy family keeps hating on her because she misspoke like once or twice in front of the press. They literally do not have one real point of attack, no valid criticism, so they have to resort to personal attacks. It's sad. She's actually quite impressive.", ">\n\nPlagiarized her book? Faked her resume? Spouse became a lobbyist? I mean, she joins a long list of German politicians in these, but she’s not exactly unbefleckt.", ">\n\nWhy stop with Russian leadership? Going after everyone involved in Russian military, logistics, and State media disinformation may have serious affects on there mobilization capacity.", ">\n\nQuestion. What actual crime can they charge Russian State Media personalities with?\nThe West cant find the legal means to deal with sources of misinformation in their own countries, I struggle to see how they can deal with sources of misinformation in another country?", ">\n\nPropaganda organs have been prosecuted as accessory for crimes against humanity in the past.\nThis is actually what the Nuremberg trials were about: how can you proescute a country based on laws that were LEGAL in said country? By which authority do you judge?\nThis is how human rights were even established: laws universial to every human, regardless of national laws. Human laws trump national laws, regardless of where or if that country is not even a signatory to any human rights convention (since there weren't any at the end of WW2).\nAnd this is ALSO why most of the EU has \"anti hate-speech\" laws as they are considered a human rights violation. Or at least as \"preparing the way to make human rights violations acceptable\".", ">\n\nI can see him sitting on a stool without handles to hold on to, in a little glascage, alone, and outside all the people he have singlehanded made widows, childless, fatherless, motherless, quietly starring at him while they each poor a little bottle of water into a hole that slowly fill the cage, staring him right in his scared little face without anyone there to help him, no need for a tribunal...", ">\n\nI hate this kind of talk. due process and a permanent, wide open public record of everything he's responsible for is the way. \nthen Germany can reactivate Spandau for him.", ">\n\nIt's very disturbing how some comments on Reddit really read like some sociopathic behavior. It's not the first time someone promotes torture here.", ">\n\n\nman who lived by the sword is proposed to die by the sword\nNooooo, not the heckin' human rightserinooooos", ">\n\nThat's the point, we need to stay better than those we condemned otherwise we're just hypocrites.", ">\n\nIf that was true, the penalty for forcible confinement couldn't be imprisonment.", ">\n\nThis is a BS idea because “we” will never be able to imprison Putin. He will either be overthrown and die by Russian hands or he will die in Russia as president or with cover from some next dictator.\nGermany needs to stop talking about tribunals and start sending tanks to Ukraine already.Focus on how you can help the Ukrainian people now , don’t offer some utopian solution that has no basis in reality.", ">\n\nIMO there’s a nonzero chance a new Russian leader might hand Putin over to get into the West‘s good graces.", ">\n\nWho might that new leader be? Anyone who has the power to force a change is just as culpable. There is no central opposition to unite and lead the masses so any popular revolt will be picked apart bit by bit.", ">\n\nHey, I never said anything about making actual changes!\nHonestly though: No clue. It's an incredibly unlikely scenario anyways.", ">\n\nPutins gonna get fucked baerbock.", ">\n\nSuch measures are probably counterproductive because it will just make it less likely than Putin will give up and instead will fight to the bitter end.\nOf course such charges could also be negotiated away in order to try to get Putin to give up. Basically if he quits he can go into exile.", ">\n\nWhere was this proposal when the Bush administration was invading Iraq?", ">\n\nNo one complains when the Power Rangers destroys the aliens with the Megazord. Good guys get a free pass", ">\n\nIs Germany going to go into Russia and bring these people to justice?\nThe answer is no. This is just (empty) political theatre.", ">\n\nGermany going into Russia is probably the only way Putin could actually still win this war", ">\n\nFinally, someone grew a pair!", ">\n\nIf you didt noticed putin doesn give a fuck", ">\n\nRussia is still one of the Great Powers. Nobody will go to arrest him without taking a nuke to the face.", ">\n\nHuh? It's a regional power at best.", ">\n\nWhat else are there? The US and China are the only Superpowers. The only Great Powers of Europe that remain are because of their militaries including nukes. It is why Germany is no more a great power, and it had no colonies anymore. The UK has its possessions, so do France, and Russia its Near Abroad. Everyone else may have some armies but not nukes enough and no colonies.", ">\n\nOh now there’s consequences? So before now there were no consequences?", ">\n\nNow if only Germany stopped stalling and blocking others from delivering equipment Ukraine needs to make it happen that would be great.", ">\n\nThat'll show him /s", ">\n\nLOL. You let him get away with Crimea. Let's stop play acting." ]

[ "They can offer Nuremberg. It has the premises ready", ">\n\nWould be truly symbolic, not that there would be any chance to extract Putin and his cronies from Russia, while it still possesses nukes...", ">\n\nThere is certainly a chance. There are 147 million people in the Russian federation. They can throw 147 into the court system. A court system which will give those 147 men the opportunity to defend themselves and to face consequences only for actions which those 147 men are actually guilty of and no more. In exchange Russia gets the opportunity to participate in global civilization and share the freedom and prosperity. If they do not take the offer the Russian people have to languish under the despotism of those same 147 criminals. \nI do not know the odds but they are greater than zero.", ">\n\nI don't mean to shit on your idea because it isn't bad, it's just unrealistic. First off, you know those 147 men would consist of critics of Putin and journalists he was already about to assassinate anyway.\nBut the even bigger issue is the assumption that they would want to participate in this current global civilization. Putin banked all his capital on the \"history is written by the victor\" sentiment, not to mention the shared sentiment with China of forcing their perception on other nations with weaponized hypocrisy.\nPutin will never admit that his invasion failed, or that he committed war crimes or give up land. He wants to fight until the rest of the world is fatigued enough to concede and admit defeat to just end this already.\nAnd while it's definitely a condemnable attitude, he wouldn't stick to this if it weren't normalized in the past. The Crimea has been annexed since 2014, yet it was more convenient for everyone to just agree that \"those aren't Russian army men\" even though of course they were.\nSame with China putting pressure on the West to turn a blind eye on its' many questionable practices.\nYou can't just roll over and allow autocrats to do whatever and then expect them to suddenly respect you.", ">\n\nI meant Putin can be overthrown. The new administration rounds up the former leadership. \n\nYou can't just roll over and allow autocrats to do whatever and then expect them to suddenly respect you.\n\nBut a people can overthrow their autocratic regime and then become a respected nation.", ">\n\nHe can, but if you look at the timeline of the Russian Revolution of 1917 as a timeline, that ain't exactly a quick process either", ">\n\nCall me when they have Putin in custody. \nHe gives zero shits if his top people end up going to prison for war crimes. \nAnd there’s no way the war doesn’t end without:\n\nPutin dead \nPutin negotiating a deal where he never is held personally responsible. \n\nIt’s right in the dictator handbook. If you kill enough people, other countries will offer to give you a pass just to get you to stop.", ">\n\nHes only going to use it as propaganda, like \"evil west wants to judge me for defending mother russia\".", ">\n\nWhile I agree he should be held accountable, what are they going to do? Walk up to the Kremlin with 20 cops knock on the door and arrest him? This is nothing", ">\n\nNo. The Russians will do that.", ">\n\nI’m not 100% sure about that he’s put fear and blind loyalty in the right places", ">\n\nFear yes! Loyalty I'm not so sure. Seems like those most loyal have had some tragic and fatal accidents as of late. Price of failure I guess. But I'm more sure that those that remain are doing so more out of complete fear than anything else. Putin has everyone guessing who is truly loyal that everyone is too afraid to band together with the other fearful to remove him.", ">\n\nNah some of them mf act like golom and vlad is the god damn ring", ">\n\nNuremberg would be a great location.", ">\n\nThis is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 72%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nTHE HAGUE - The international community should establish a special tribunal to bring Russian President Vladimir Putin and his regime to trial over their war of aggression against Ukraine, German Foreign Minister Annalena Baerbock said Monday.\nIn a keynote speech following a visit to the International Criminal Court in The Hague, Baerbock emphasized the need to hold the Russian leadership \"Accountable\" for their invasion, which started almost a year ago.\nTo avoid this impasse, Baerbock said she wanted to form, together with partner countries, \"a special tribunal\" to address the crime of aggression against Ukraine that could investigate and try the Russian leadership.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: international^#1 Court^#2 tribunal^#3 crime^#4 Ukraine^#5", ">\n\nI think that's a fantastic idea.", ">\n\n“This aggression will not stand, man”\n-The Dude\n -Baerbock", ">\n\nPutin's a nihilist?", ">\n\nNoooo funny business, Putbowski", ">\n\nWe ba-lieve in nassing…", ">\n\nI think Putin feels he is above all that, he is untouchable. IMHO the only hope to end the war is for Putin to commit suicide or be assassinated.", ">\n\nKill Putin, someone else will be put in place by the oligarchs. You won't change too much.", ">\n\nI don't think that would happen. The oligarchs likely don't have the megalomaniac inclination Putin has. I don't see them wanting to continue down the road of attaching Ukraine.\nAlthough In the long run, I don't see Russia as becoming a \"nice\" country.", ">\n\nBaerbock proposes special tribunal to fuck the Russian raw", ">\n\nAnnalena is tough, if she could, she would drag Putin by his ear to Nürnberg herself.", ">\n\nShe’s one of the few German politicians I’m really fond of. It’s no wonder why the Greens are doing so well in the polls", ">\n\nMy family keeps hating on her because she misspoke like once or twice in front of the press. They literally do not have one real point of attack, no valid criticism, so they have to resort to personal attacks. It's sad. She's actually quite impressive.", ">\n\nPlagiarized her book? Faked her resume? Spouse became a lobbyist? I mean, she joins a long list of German politicians in these, but she’s not exactly unbefleckt.", ">\n\nWhy stop with Russian leadership? Going after everyone involved in Russian military, logistics, and State media disinformation may have serious affects on there mobilization capacity.", ">\n\nQuestion. What actual crime can they charge Russian State Media personalities with?\nThe West cant find the legal means to deal with sources of misinformation in their own countries, I struggle to see how they can deal with sources of misinformation in another country?", ">\n\nPropaganda organs have been prosecuted as accessory for crimes against humanity in the past.\nThis is actually what the Nuremberg trials were about: how can you proescute a country based on laws that were LEGAL in said country? By which authority do you judge?\nThis is how human rights were even established: laws universial to every human, regardless of national laws. Human laws trump national laws, regardless of where or if that country is not even a signatory to any human rights convention (since there weren't any at the end of WW2).\nAnd this is ALSO why most of the EU has \"anti hate-speech\" laws as they are considered a human rights violation. Or at least as \"preparing the way to make human rights violations acceptable\".", ">\n\nI can see him sitting on a stool without handles to hold on to, in a little glascage, alone, and outside all the people he have singlehanded made widows, childless, fatherless, motherless, quietly starring at him while they each poor a little bottle of water into a hole that slowly fill the cage, staring him right in his scared little face without anyone there to help him, no need for a tribunal...", ">\n\nI hate this kind of talk. due process and a permanent, wide open public record of everything he's responsible for is the way. \nthen Germany can reactivate Spandau for him.", ">\n\nIt's very disturbing how some comments on Reddit really read like some sociopathic behavior. It's not the first time someone promotes torture here.", ">\n\n\nman who lived by the sword is proposed to die by the sword\nNooooo, not the heckin' human rightserinooooos", ">\n\nThat's the point, we need to stay better than those we condemned otherwise we're just hypocrites.", ">\n\nIf that was true, the penalty for forcible confinement couldn't be imprisonment.", ">\n\nThis is a BS idea because “we” will never be able to imprison Putin. He will either be overthrown and die by Russian hands or he will die in Russia as president or with cover from some next dictator.\nGermany needs to stop talking about tribunals and start sending tanks to Ukraine already.Focus on how you can help the Ukrainian people now , don’t offer some utopian solution that has no basis in reality.", ">\n\nIMO there’s a nonzero chance a new Russian leader might hand Putin over to get into the West‘s good graces.", ">\n\nWho might that new leader be? Anyone who has the power to force a change is just as culpable. There is no central opposition to unite and lead the masses so any popular revolt will be picked apart bit by bit.", ">\n\nHey, I never said anything about making actual changes!\nHonestly though: No clue. It's an incredibly unlikely scenario anyways.", ">\n\nPutins gonna get fucked baerbock.", ">\n\nSuch measures are probably counterproductive because it will just make it less likely than Putin will give up and instead will fight to the bitter end.\nOf course such charges could also be negotiated away in order to try to get Putin to give up. Basically if he quits he can go into exile.", ">\n\nWhere was this proposal when the Bush administration was invading Iraq?", ">\n\nNo one complains when the Power Rangers destroys the aliens with the Megazord. Good guys get a free pass", ">\n\nIs Germany going to go into Russia and bring these people to justice?\nThe answer is no. This is just (empty) political theatre.", ">\n\nGermany going into Russia is probably the only way Putin could actually still win this war", ">\n\nFinally, someone grew a pair!", ">\n\nIf you didt noticed putin doesn give a fuck", ">\n\nRussia is still one of the Great Powers. Nobody will go to arrest him without taking a nuke to the face.", ">\n\nHuh? It's a regional power at best.", ">\n\nWhat else are there? The US and China are the only Superpowers. The only Great Powers of Europe that remain are because of their militaries including nukes. It is why Germany is no more a great power, and it had no colonies anymore. The UK has its possessions, so do France, and Russia its Near Abroad. Everyone else may have some armies but not nukes enough and no colonies.", ">\n\nOh now there’s consequences? So before now there were no consequences?", ">\n\nNow if only Germany stopped stalling and blocking others from delivering equipment Ukraine needs to make it happen that would be great.", ">\n\nThat'll show him /s", ">\n\nLOL. You let him get away with Crimea. Let's stop play acting.", ">\n\nMust he?..." ]

[ "They can offer Nuremberg. It has the premises ready", ">\n\nWould be truly symbolic, not that there would be any chance to extract Putin and his cronies from Russia, while it still possesses nukes...", ">\n\nThere is certainly a chance. There are 147 million people in the Russian federation. They can throw 147 into the court system. A court system which will give those 147 men the opportunity to defend themselves and to face consequences only for actions which those 147 men are actually guilty of and no more. In exchange Russia gets the opportunity to participate in global civilization and share the freedom and prosperity. If they do not take the offer the Russian people have to languish under the despotism of those same 147 criminals. \nI do not know the odds but they are greater than zero.", ">\n\nI don't mean to shit on your idea because it isn't bad, it's just unrealistic. First off, you know those 147 men would consist of critics of Putin and journalists he was already about to assassinate anyway.\nBut the even bigger issue is the assumption that they would want to participate in this current global civilization. Putin banked all his capital on the \"history is written by the victor\" sentiment, not to mention the shared sentiment with China of forcing their perception on other nations with weaponized hypocrisy.\nPutin will never admit that his invasion failed, or that he committed war crimes or give up land. He wants to fight until the rest of the world is fatigued enough to concede and admit defeat to just end this already.\nAnd while it's definitely a condemnable attitude, he wouldn't stick to this if it weren't normalized in the past. The Crimea has been annexed since 2014, yet it was more convenient for everyone to just agree that \"those aren't Russian army men\" even though of course they were.\nSame with China putting pressure on the West to turn a blind eye on its' many questionable practices.\nYou can't just roll over and allow autocrats to do whatever and then expect them to suddenly respect you.", ">\n\nI meant Putin can be overthrown. The new administration rounds up the former leadership. \n\nYou can't just roll over and allow autocrats to do whatever and then expect them to suddenly respect you.\n\nBut a people can overthrow their autocratic regime and then become a respected nation.", ">\n\nHe can, but if you look at the timeline of the Russian Revolution of 1917 as a timeline, that ain't exactly a quick process either", ">\n\nCall me when they have Putin in custody. \nHe gives zero shits if his top people end up going to prison for war crimes. \nAnd there’s no way the war doesn’t end without:\n\nPutin dead \nPutin negotiating a deal where he never is held personally responsible. \n\nIt’s right in the dictator handbook. If you kill enough people, other countries will offer to give you a pass just to get you to stop.", ">\n\nHes only going to use it as propaganda, like \"evil west wants to judge me for defending mother russia\".", ">\n\nWhile I agree he should be held accountable, what are they going to do? Walk up to the Kremlin with 20 cops knock on the door and arrest him? This is nothing", ">\n\nNo. The Russians will do that.", ">\n\nI’m not 100% sure about that he’s put fear and blind loyalty in the right places", ">\n\nFear yes! Loyalty I'm not so sure. Seems like those most loyal have had some tragic and fatal accidents as of late. Price of failure I guess. But I'm more sure that those that remain are doing so more out of complete fear than anything else. Putin has everyone guessing who is truly loyal that everyone is too afraid to band together with the other fearful to remove him.", ">\n\nNah some of them mf act like golom and vlad is the god damn ring", ">\n\nNuremberg would be a great location.", ">\n\nThis is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 72%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nTHE HAGUE - The international community should establish a special tribunal to bring Russian President Vladimir Putin and his regime to trial over their war of aggression against Ukraine, German Foreign Minister Annalena Baerbock said Monday.\nIn a keynote speech following a visit to the International Criminal Court in The Hague, Baerbock emphasized the need to hold the Russian leadership \"Accountable\" for their invasion, which started almost a year ago.\nTo avoid this impasse, Baerbock said she wanted to form, together with partner countries, \"a special tribunal\" to address the crime of aggression against Ukraine that could investigate and try the Russian leadership.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: international^#1 Court^#2 tribunal^#3 crime^#4 Ukraine^#5", ">\n\nI think that's a fantastic idea.", ">\n\n“This aggression will not stand, man”\n-The Dude\n -Baerbock", ">\n\nPutin's a nihilist?", ">\n\nNoooo funny business, Putbowski", ">\n\nWe ba-lieve in nassing…", ">\n\nI think Putin feels he is above all that, he is untouchable. IMHO the only hope to end the war is for Putin to commit suicide or be assassinated.", ">\n\nKill Putin, someone else will be put in place by the oligarchs. You won't change too much.", ">\n\nI don't think that would happen. The oligarchs likely don't have the megalomaniac inclination Putin has. I don't see them wanting to continue down the road of attaching Ukraine.\nAlthough In the long run, I don't see Russia as becoming a \"nice\" country.", ">\n\nBaerbock proposes special tribunal to fuck the Russian raw", ">\n\nAnnalena is tough, if she could, she would drag Putin by his ear to Nürnberg herself.", ">\n\nShe’s one of the few German politicians I’m really fond of. It’s no wonder why the Greens are doing so well in the polls", ">\n\nMy family keeps hating on her because she misspoke like once or twice in front of the press. They literally do not have one real point of attack, no valid criticism, so they have to resort to personal attacks. It's sad. She's actually quite impressive.", ">\n\nPlagiarized her book? Faked her resume? Spouse became a lobbyist? I mean, she joins a long list of German politicians in these, but she’s not exactly unbefleckt.", ">\n\nWhy stop with Russian leadership? Going after everyone involved in Russian military, logistics, and State media disinformation may have serious affects on there mobilization capacity.", ">\n\nQuestion. What actual crime can they charge Russian State Media personalities with?\nThe West cant find the legal means to deal with sources of misinformation in their own countries, I struggle to see how they can deal with sources of misinformation in another country?", ">\n\nPropaganda organs have been prosecuted as accessory for crimes against humanity in the past.\nThis is actually what the Nuremberg trials were about: how can you proescute a country based on laws that were LEGAL in said country? By which authority do you judge?\nThis is how human rights were even established: laws universial to every human, regardless of national laws. Human laws trump national laws, regardless of where or if that country is not even a signatory to any human rights convention (since there weren't any at the end of WW2).\nAnd this is ALSO why most of the EU has \"anti hate-speech\" laws as they are considered a human rights violation. Or at least as \"preparing the way to make human rights violations acceptable\".", ">\n\nI can see him sitting on a stool without handles to hold on to, in a little glascage, alone, and outside all the people he have singlehanded made widows, childless, fatherless, motherless, quietly starring at him while they each poor a little bottle of water into a hole that slowly fill the cage, staring him right in his scared little face without anyone there to help him, no need for a tribunal...", ">\n\nI hate this kind of talk. due process and a permanent, wide open public record of everything he's responsible for is the way. \nthen Germany can reactivate Spandau for him.", ">\n\nIt's very disturbing how some comments on Reddit really read like some sociopathic behavior. It's not the first time someone promotes torture here.", ">\n\n\nman who lived by the sword is proposed to die by the sword\nNooooo, not the heckin' human rightserinooooos", ">\n\nThat's the point, we need to stay better than those we condemned otherwise we're just hypocrites.", ">\n\nIf that was true, the penalty for forcible confinement couldn't be imprisonment.", ">\n\nThis is a BS idea because “we” will never be able to imprison Putin. He will either be overthrown and die by Russian hands or he will die in Russia as president or with cover from some next dictator.\nGermany needs to stop talking about tribunals and start sending tanks to Ukraine already.Focus on how you can help the Ukrainian people now , don’t offer some utopian solution that has no basis in reality.", ">\n\nIMO there’s a nonzero chance a new Russian leader might hand Putin over to get into the West‘s good graces.", ">\n\nWho might that new leader be? Anyone who has the power to force a change is just as culpable. There is no central opposition to unite and lead the masses so any popular revolt will be picked apart bit by bit.", ">\n\nHey, I never said anything about making actual changes!\nHonestly though: No clue. It's an incredibly unlikely scenario anyways.", ">\n\nPutins gonna get fucked baerbock.", ">\n\nSuch measures are probably counterproductive because it will just make it less likely than Putin will give up and instead will fight to the bitter end.\nOf course such charges could also be negotiated away in order to try to get Putin to give up. Basically if he quits he can go into exile.", ">\n\nWhere was this proposal when the Bush administration was invading Iraq?", ">\n\nNo one complains when the Power Rangers destroys the aliens with the Megazord. Good guys get a free pass", ">\n\nIs Germany going to go into Russia and bring these people to justice?\nThe answer is no. This is just (empty) political theatre.", ">\n\nGermany going into Russia is probably the only way Putin could actually still win this war", ">\n\nFinally, someone grew a pair!", ">\n\nIf you didt noticed putin doesn give a fuck", ">\n\nRussia is still one of the Great Powers. Nobody will go to arrest him without taking a nuke to the face.", ">\n\nHuh? It's a regional power at best.", ">\n\nWhat else are there? The US and China are the only Superpowers. The only Great Powers of Europe that remain are because of their militaries including nukes. It is why Germany is no more a great power, and it had no colonies anymore. The UK has its possessions, so do France, and Russia its Near Abroad. Everyone else may have some armies but not nukes enough and no colonies.", ">\n\nOh now there’s consequences? So before now there were no consequences?", ">\n\nNow if only Germany stopped stalling and blocking others from delivering equipment Ukraine needs to make it happen that would be great.", ">\n\nThat'll show him /s", ">\n\nLOL. You let him get away with Crimea. Let's stop play acting.", ">\n\nMust he?...", ">\n\nCriminal ad hoc tribunals are a legal aberration that are prohited by good reason at a national level by most democratic constitutions.\nIt's time to give the International Criminal Court, that was made to prosecute this kind of thing, actual jurisdiction over the world and a way to effectively enforce their judgements." ]

[ "They can offer Nuremberg. It has the premises ready", ">\n\nWould be truly symbolic, not that there would be any chance to extract Putin and his cronies from Russia, while it still possesses nukes...", ">\n\nThere is certainly a chance. There are 147 million people in the Russian federation. They can throw 147 into the court system. A court system which will give those 147 men the opportunity to defend themselves and to face consequences only for actions which those 147 men are actually guilty of and no more. In exchange Russia gets the opportunity to participate in global civilization and share the freedom and prosperity. If they do not take the offer the Russian people have to languish under the despotism of those same 147 criminals. \nI do not know the odds but they are greater than zero.", ">\n\nI don't mean to shit on your idea because it isn't bad, it's just unrealistic. First off, you know those 147 men would consist of critics of Putin and journalists he was already about to assassinate anyway.\nBut the even bigger issue is the assumption that they would want to participate in this current global civilization. Putin banked all his capital on the \"history is written by the victor\" sentiment, not to mention the shared sentiment with China of forcing their perception on other nations with weaponized hypocrisy.\nPutin will never admit that his invasion failed, or that he committed war crimes or give up land. He wants to fight until the rest of the world is fatigued enough to concede and admit defeat to just end this already.\nAnd while it's definitely a condemnable attitude, he wouldn't stick to this if it weren't normalized in the past. The Crimea has been annexed since 2014, yet it was more convenient for everyone to just agree that \"those aren't Russian army men\" even though of course they were.\nSame with China putting pressure on the West to turn a blind eye on its' many questionable practices.\nYou can't just roll over and allow autocrats to do whatever and then expect them to suddenly respect you.", ">\n\nI meant Putin can be overthrown. The new administration rounds up the former leadership. \n\nYou can't just roll over and allow autocrats to do whatever and then expect them to suddenly respect you.\n\nBut a people can overthrow their autocratic regime and then become a respected nation.", ">\n\nHe can, but if you look at the timeline of the Russian Revolution of 1917 as a timeline, that ain't exactly a quick process either", ">\n\nCall me when they have Putin in custody. \nHe gives zero shits if his top people end up going to prison for war crimes. \nAnd there’s no way the war doesn’t end without:\n\nPutin dead \nPutin negotiating a deal where he never is held personally responsible. \n\nIt’s right in the dictator handbook. If you kill enough people, other countries will offer to give you a pass just to get you to stop.", ">\n\nHes only going to use it as propaganda, like \"evil west wants to judge me for defending mother russia\".", ">\n\nWhile I agree he should be held accountable, what are they going to do? Walk up to the Kremlin with 20 cops knock on the door and arrest him? This is nothing", ">\n\nNo. The Russians will do that.", ">\n\nI’m not 100% sure about that he’s put fear and blind loyalty in the right places", ">\n\nFear yes! Loyalty I'm not so sure. Seems like those most loyal have had some tragic and fatal accidents as of late. Price of failure I guess. But I'm more sure that those that remain are doing so more out of complete fear than anything else. Putin has everyone guessing who is truly loyal that everyone is too afraid to band together with the other fearful to remove him.", ">\n\nNah some of them mf act like golom and vlad is the god damn ring", ">\n\nNuremberg would be a great location.", ">\n\nThis is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 72%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nTHE HAGUE - The international community should establish a special tribunal to bring Russian President Vladimir Putin and his regime to trial over their war of aggression against Ukraine, German Foreign Minister Annalena Baerbock said Monday.\nIn a keynote speech following a visit to the International Criminal Court in The Hague, Baerbock emphasized the need to hold the Russian leadership \"Accountable\" for their invasion, which started almost a year ago.\nTo avoid this impasse, Baerbock said she wanted to form, together with partner countries, \"a special tribunal\" to address the crime of aggression against Ukraine that could investigate and try the Russian leadership.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: international^#1 Court^#2 tribunal^#3 crime^#4 Ukraine^#5", ">\n\nI think that's a fantastic idea.", ">\n\n“This aggression will not stand, man”\n-The Dude\n -Baerbock", ">\n\nPutin's a nihilist?", ">\n\nNoooo funny business, Putbowski", ">\n\nWe ba-lieve in nassing…", ">\n\nI think Putin feels he is above all that, he is untouchable. IMHO the only hope to end the war is for Putin to commit suicide or be assassinated.", ">\n\nKill Putin, someone else will be put in place by the oligarchs. You won't change too much.", ">\n\nI don't think that would happen. The oligarchs likely don't have the megalomaniac inclination Putin has. I don't see them wanting to continue down the road of attaching Ukraine.\nAlthough In the long run, I don't see Russia as becoming a \"nice\" country.", ">\n\nBaerbock proposes special tribunal to fuck the Russian raw", ">\n\nAnnalena is tough, if she could, she would drag Putin by his ear to Nürnberg herself.", ">\n\nShe’s one of the few German politicians I’m really fond of. It’s no wonder why the Greens are doing so well in the polls", ">\n\nMy family keeps hating on her because she misspoke like once or twice in front of the press. They literally do not have one real point of attack, no valid criticism, so they have to resort to personal attacks. It's sad. She's actually quite impressive.", ">\n\nPlagiarized her book? Faked her resume? Spouse became a lobbyist? I mean, she joins a long list of German politicians in these, but she’s not exactly unbefleckt.", ">\n\nWhy stop with Russian leadership? Going after everyone involved in Russian military, logistics, and State media disinformation may have serious affects on there mobilization capacity.", ">\n\nQuestion. What actual crime can they charge Russian State Media personalities with?\nThe West cant find the legal means to deal with sources of misinformation in their own countries, I struggle to see how they can deal with sources of misinformation in another country?", ">\n\nPropaganda organs have been prosecuted as accessory for crimes against humanity in the past.\nThis is actually what the Nuremberg trials were about: how can you proescute a country based on laws that were LEGAL in said country? By which authority do you judge?\nThis is how human rights were even established: laws universial to every human, regardless of national laws. Human laws trump national laws, regardless of where or if that country is not even a signatory to any human rights convention (since there weren't any at the end of WW2).\nAnd this is ALSO why most of the EU has \"anti hate-speech\" laws as they are considered a human rights violation. Or at least as \"preparing the way to make human rights violations acceptable\".", ">\n\nI can see him sitting on a stool without handles to hold on to, in a little glascage, alone, and outside all the people he have singlehanded made widows, childless, fatherless, motherless, quietly starring at him while they each poor a little bottle of water into a hole that slowly fill the cage, staring him right in his scared little face without anyone there to help him, no need for a tribunal...", ">\n\nI hate this kind of talk. due process and a permanent, wide open public record of everything he's responsible for is the way. \nthen Germany can reactivate Spandau for him.", ">\n\nIt's very disturbing how some comments on Reddit really read like some sociopathic behavior. It's not the first time someone promotes torture here.", ">\n\n\nman who lived by the sword is proposed to die by the sword\nNooooo, not the heckin' human rightserinooooos", ">\n\nThat's the point, we need to stay better than those we condemned otherwise we're just hypocrites.", ">\n\nIf that was true, the penalty for forcible confinement couldn't be imprisonment.", ">\n\nThis is a BS idea because “we” will never be able to imprison Putin. He will either be overthrown and die by Russian hands or he will die in Russia as president or with cover from some next dictator.\nGermany needs to stop talking about tribunals and start sending tanks to Ukraine already.Focus on how you can help the Ukrainian people now , don’t offer some utopian solution that has no basis in reality.", ">\n\nIMO there’s a nonzero chance a new Russian leader might hand Putin over to get into the West‘s good graces.", ">\n\nWho might that new leader be? Anyone who has the power to force a change is just as culpable. There is no central opposition to unite and lead the masses so any popular revolt will be picked apart bit by bit.", ">\n\nHey, I never said anything about making actual changes!\nHonestly though: No clue. It's an incredibly unlikely scenario anyways.", ">\n\nPutins gonna get fucked baerbock.", ">\n\nSuch measures are probably counterproductive because it will just make it less likely than Putin will give up and instead will fight to the bitter end.\nOf course such charges could also be negotiated away in order to try to get Putin to give up. Basically if he quits he can go into exile.", ">\n\nWhere was this proposal when the Bush administration was invading Iraq?", ">\n\nNo one complains when the Power Rangers destroys the aliens with the Megazord. Good guys get a free pass", ">\n\nIs Germany going to go into Russia and bring these people to justice?\nThe answer is no. This is just (empty) political theatre.", ">\n\nGermany going into Russia is probably the only way Putin could actually still win this war", ">\n\nFinally, someone grew a pair!", ">\n\nIf you didt noticed putin doesn give a fuck", ">\n\nRussia is still one of the Great Powers. Nobody will go to arrest him without taking a nuke to the face.", ">\n\nHuh? It's a regional power at best.", ">\n\nWhat else are there? The US and China are the only Superpowers. The only Great Powers of Europe that remain are because of their militaries including nukes. It is why Germany is no more a great power, and it had no colonies anymore. The UK has its possessions, so do France, and Russia its Near Abroad. Everyone else may have some armies but not nukes enough and no colonies.", ">\n\nOh now there’s consequences? So before now there were no consequences?", ">\n\nNow if only Germany stopped stalling and blocking others from delivering equipment Ukraine needs to make it happen that would be great.", ">\n\nThat'll show him /s", ">\n\nLOL. You let him get away with Crimea. Let's stop play acting.", ">\n\nMust he?...", ">\n\nCriminal ad hoc tribunals are a legal aberration that are prohited by good reason at a national level by most democratic constitutions.\nIt's time to give the International Criminal Court, that was made to prosecute this kind of thing, actual jurisdiction over the world and a way to effectively enforce their judgements.", ">\n\nThey have Jurisdiction in Ukraine, from a Jurisdictional standpoint it isn't a problem really as Ukraine consented to ICC Jurisdiction." ]

[ "They can offer Nuremberg. It has the premises ready", ">\n\nWould be truly symbolic, not that there would be any chance to extract Putin and his cronies from Russia, while it still possesses nukes...", ">\n\nThere is certainly a chance. There are 147 million people in the Russian federation. They can throw 147 into the court system. A court system which will give those 147 men the opportunity to defend themselves and to face consequences only for actions which those 147 men are actually guilty of and no more. In exchange Russia gets the opportunity to participate in global civilization and share the freedom and prosperity. If they do not take the offer the Russian people have to languish under the despotism of those same 147 criminals. \nI do not know the odds but they are greater than zero.", ">\n\nI don't mean to shit on your idea because it isn't bad, it's just unrealistic. First off, you know those 147 men would consist of critics of Putin and journalists he was already about to assassinate anyway.\nBut the even bigger issue is the assumption that they would want to participate in this current global civilization. Putin banked all his capital on the \"history is written by the victor\" sentiment, not to mention the shared sentiment with China of forcing their perception on other nations with weaponized hypocrisy.\nPutin will never admit that his invasion failed, or that he committed war crimes or give up land. He wants to fight until the rest of the world is fatigued enough to concede and admit defeat to just end this already.\nAnd while it's definitely a condemnable attitude, he wouldn't stick to this if it weren't normalized in the past. The Crimea has been annexed since 2014, yet it was more convenient for everyone to just agree that \"those aren't Russian army men\" even though of course they were.\nSame with China putting pressure on the West to turn a blind eye on its' many questionable practices.\nYou can't just roll over and allow autocrats to do whatever and then expect them to suddenly respect you.", ">\n\nI meant Putin can be overthrown. The new administration rounds up the former leadership. \n\nYou can't just roll over and allow autocrats to do whatever and then expect them to suddenly respect you.\n\nBut a people can overthrow their autocratic regime and then become a respected nation.", ">\n\nHe can, but if you look at the timeline of the Russian Revolution of 1917 as a timeline, that ain't exactly a quick process either", ">\n\nCall me when they have Putin in custody. \nHe gives zero shits if his top people end up going to prison for war crimes. \nAnd there’s no way the war doesn’t end without:\n\nPutin dead \nPutin negotiating a deal where he never is held personally responsible. \n\nIt’s right in the dictator handbook. If you kill enough people, other countries will offer to give you a pass just to get you to stop.", ">\n\nHes only going to use it as propaganda, like \"evil west wants to judge me for defending mother russia\".", ">\n\nWhile I agree he should be held accountable, what are they going to do? Walk up to the Kremlin with 20 cops knock on the door and arrest him? This is nothing", ">\n\nNo. The Russians will do that.", ">\n\nI’m not 100% sure about that he’s put fear and blind loyalty in the right places", ">\n\nFear yes! Loyalty I'm not so sure. Seems like those most loyal have had some tragic and fatal accidents as of late. Price of failure I guess. But I'm more sure that those that remain are doing so more out of complete fear than anything else. Putin has everyone guessing who is truly loyal that everyone is too afraid to band together with the other fearful to remove him.", ">\n\nNah some of them mf act like golom and vlad is the god damn ring", ">\n\nNuremberg would be a great location.", ">\n\nThis is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 72%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nTHE HAGUE - The international community should establish a special tribunal to bring Russian President Vladimir Putin and his regime to trial over their war of aggression against Ukraine, German Foreign Minister Annalena Baerbock said Monday.\nIn a keynote speech following a visit to the International Criminal Court in The Hague, Baerbock emphasized the need to hold the Russian leadership \"Accountable\" for their invasion, which started almost a year ago.\nTo avoid this impasse, Baerbock said she wanted to form, together with partner countries, \"a special tribunal\" to address the crime of aggression against Ukraine that could investigate and try the Russian leadership.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: international^#1 Court^#2 tribunal^#3 crime^#4 Ukraine^#5", ">\n\nI think that's a fantastic idea.", ">\n\n“This aggression will not stand, man”\n-The Dude\n -Baerbock", ">\n\nPutin's a nihilist?", ">\n\nNoooo funny business, Putbowski", ">\n\nWe ba-lieve in nassing…", ">\n\nI think Putin feels he is above all that, he is untouchable. IMHO the only hope to end the war is for Putin to commit suicide or be assassinated.", ">\n\nKill Putin, someone else will be put in place by the oligarchs. You won't change too much.", ">\n\nI don't think that would happen. The oligarchs likely don't have the megalomaniac inclination Putin has. I don't see them wanting to continue down the road of attaching Ukraine.\nAlthough In the long run, I don't see Russia as becoming a \"nice\" country.", ">\n\nBaerbock proposes special tribunal to fuck the Russian raw", ">\n\nAnnalena is tough, if she could, she would drag Putin by his ear to Nürnberg herself.", ">\n\nShe’s one of the few German politicians I’m really fond of. It’s no wonder why the Greens are doing so well in the polls", ">\n\nMy family keeps hating on her because she misspoke like once or twice in front of the press. They literally do not have one real point of attack, no valid criticism, so they have to resort to personal attacks. It's sad. She's actually quite impressive.", ">\n\nPlagiarized her book? Faked her resume? Spouse became a lobbyist? I mean, she joins a long list of German politicians in these, but she’s not exactly unbefleckt.", ">\n\nWhy stop with Russian leadership? Going after everyone involved in Russian military, logistics, and State media disinformation may have serious affects on there mobilization capacity.", ">\n\nQuestion. What actual crime can they charge Russian State Media personalities with?\nThe West cant find the legal means to deal with sources of misinformation in their own countries, I struggle to see how they can deal with sources of misinformation in another country?", ">\n\nPropaganda organs have been prosecuted as accessory for crimes against humanity in the past.\nThis is actually what the Nuremberg trials were about: how can you proescute a country based on laws that were LEGAL in said country? By which authority do you judge?\nThis is how human rights were even established: laws universial to every human, regardless of national laws. Human laws trump national laws, regardless of where or if that country is not even a signatory to any human rights convention (since there weren't any at the end of WW2).\nAnd this is ALSO why most of the EU has \"anti hate-speech\" laws as they are considered a human rights violation. Or at least as \"preparing the way to make human rights violations acceptable\".", ">\n\nI can see him sitting on a stool without handles to hold on to, in a little glascage, alone, and outside all the people he have singlehanded made widows, childless, fatherless, motherless, quietly starring at him while they each poor a little bottle of water into a hole that slowly fill the cage, staring him right in his scared little face without anyone there to help him, no need for a tribunal...", ">\n\nI hate this kind of talk. due process and a permanent, wide open public record of everything he's responsible for is the way. \nthen Germany can reactivate Spandau for him.", ">\n\nIt's very disturbing how some comments on Reddit really read like some sociopathic behavior. It's not the first time someone promotes torture here.", ">\n\n\nman who lived by the sword is proposed to die by the sword\nNooooo, not the heckin' human rightserinooooos", ">\n\nThat's the point, we need to stay better than those we condemned otherwise we're just hypocrites.", ">\n\nIf that was true, the penalty for forcible confinement couldn't be imprisonment.", ">\n\nThis is a BS idea because “we” will never be able to imprison Putin. He will either be overthrown and die by Russian hands or he will die in Russia as president or with cover from some next dictator.\nGermany needs to stop talking about tribunals and start sending tanks to Ukraine already.Focus on how you can help the Ukrainian people now , don’t offer some utopian solution that has no basis in reality.", ">\n\nIMO there’s a nonzero chance a new Russian leader might hand Putin over to get into the West‘s good graces.", ">\n\nWho might that new leader be? Anyone who has the power to force a change is just as culpable. There is no central opposition to unite and lead the masses so any popular revolt will be picked apart bit by bit.", ">\n\nHey, I never said anything about making actual changes!\nHonestly though: No clue. It's an incredibly unlikely scenario anyways.", ">\n\nPutins gonna get fucked baerbock.", ">\n\nSuch measures are probably counterproductive because it will just make it less likely than Putin will give up and instead will fight to the bitter end.\nOf course such charges could also be negotiated away in order to try to get Putin to give up. Basically if he quits he can go into exile.", ">\n\nWhere was this proposal when the Bush administration was invading Iraq?", ">\n\nNo one complains when the Power Rangers destroys the aliens with the Megazord. Good guys get a free pass", ">\n\nIs Germany going to go into Russia and bring these people to justice?\nThe answer is no. This is just (empty) political theatre.", ">\n\nGermany going into Russia is probably the only way Putin could actually still win this war", ">\n\nFinally, someone grew a pair!", ">\n\nIf you didt noticed putin doesn give a fuck", ">\n\nRussia is still one of the Great Powers. Nobody will go to arrest him without taking a nuke to the face.", ">\n\nHuh? It's a regional power at best.", ">\n\nWhat else are there? The US and China are the only Superpowers. The only Great Powers of Europe that remain are because of their militaries including nukes. It is why Germany is no more a great power, and it had no colonies anymore. The UK has its possessions, so do France, and Russia its Near Abroad. Everyone else may have some armies but not nukes enough and no colonies.", ">\n\nOh now there’s consequences? So before now there were no consequences?", ">\n\nNow if only Germany stopped stalling and blocking others from delivering equipment Ukraine needs to make it happen that would be great.", ">\n\nThat'll show him /s", ">\n\nLOL. You let him get away with Crimea. Let's stop play acting.", ">\n\nMust he?...", ">\n\nCriminal ad hoc tribunals are a legal aberration that are prohited by good reason at a national level by most democratic constitutions.\nIt's time to give the International Criminal Court, that was made to prosecute this kind of thing, actual jurisdiction over the world and a way to effectively enforce their judgements.", ">\n\nThey have Jurisdiction in Ukraine, from a Jurisdictional standpoint it isn't a problem really as Ukraine consented to ICC Jurisdiction.", ">\n\nBut not Russia, even if the country came under new management, I have a hard time believing they would allow this.\nCan see someone pulling an Eichmann on them tho." ]

[ "They can offer Nuremberg. It has the premises ready", ">\n\nWould be truly symbolic, not that there would be any chance to extract Putin and his cronies from Russia, while it still possesses nukes...", ">\n\nThere is certainly a chance. There are 147 million people in the Russian federation. They can throw 147 into the court system. A court system which will give those 147 men the opportunity to defend themselves and to face consequences only for actions which those 147 men are actually guilty of and no more. In exchange Russia gets the opportunity to participate in global civilization and share the freedom and prosperity. If they do not take the offer the Russian people have to languish under the despotism of those same 147 criminals. \nI do not know the odds but they are greater than zero.", ">\n\nI don't mean to shit on your idea because it isn't bad, it's just unrealistic. First off, you know those 147 men would consist of critics of Putin and journalists he was already about to assassinate anyway.\nBut the even bigger issue is the assumption that they would want to participate in this current global civilization. Putin banked all his capital on the \"history is written by the victor\" sentiment, not to mention the shared sentiment with China of forcing their perception on other nations with weaponized hypocrisy.\nPutin will never admit that his invasion failed, or that he committed war crimes or give up land. He wants to fight until the rest of the world is fatigued enough to concede and admit defeat to just end this already.\nAnd while it's definitely a condemnable attitude, he wouldn't stick to this if it weren't normalized in the past. The Crimea has been annexed since 2014, yet it was more convenient for everyone to just agree that \"those aren't Russian army men\" even though of course they were.\nSame with China putting pressure on the West to turn a blind eye on its' many questionable practices.\nYou can't just roll over and allow autocrats to do whatever and then expect them to suddenly respect you.", ">\n\nI meant Putin can be overthrown. The new administration rounds up the former leadership. \n\nYou can't just roll over and allow autocrats to do whatever and then expect them to suddenly respect you.\n\nBut a people can overthrow their autocratic regime and then become a respected nation.", ">\n\nHe can, but if you look at the timeline of the Russian Revolution of 1917 as a timeline, that ain't exactly a quick process either", ">\n\nCall me when they have Putin in custody. \nHe gives zero shits if his top people end up going to prison for war crimes. \nAnd there’s no way the war doesn’t end without:\n\nPutin dead \nPutin negotiating a deal where he never is held personally responsible. \n\nIt’s right in the dictator handbook. If you kill enough people, other countries will offer to give you a pass just to get you to stop.", ">\n\nHes only going to use it as propaganda, like \"evil west wants to judge me for defending mother russia\".", ">\n\nWhile I agree he should be held accountable, what are they going to do? Walk up to the Kremlin with 20 cops knock on the door and arrest him? This is nothing", ">\n\nNo. The Russians will do that.", ">\n\nI’m not 100% sure about that he’s put fear and blind loyalty in the right places", ">\n\nFear yes! Loyalty I'm not so sure. Seems like those most loyal have had some tragic and fatal accidents as of late. Price of failure I guess. But I'm more sure that those that remain are doing so more out of complete fear than anything else. Putin has everyone guessing who is truly loyal that everyone is too afraid to band together with the other fearful to remove him.", ">\n\nNah some of them mf act like golom and vlad is the god damn ring", ">\n\nNuremberg would be a great location.", ">\n\nThis is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 72%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nTHE HAGUE - The international community should establish a special tribunal to bring Russian President Vladimir Putin and his regime to trial over their war of aggression against Ukraine, German Foreign Minister Annalena Baerbock said Monday.\nIn a keynote speech following a visit to the International Criminal Court in The Hague, Baerbock emphasized the need to hold the Russian leadership \"Accountable\" for their invasion, which started almost a year ago.\nTo avoid this impasse, Baerbock said she wanted to form, together with partner countries, \"a special tribunal\" to address the crime of aggression against Ukraine that could investigate and try the Russian leadership.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: international^#1 Court^#2 tribunal^#3 crime^#4 Ukraine^#5", ">\n\nI think that's a fantastic idea.", ">\n\n“This aggression will not stand, man”\n-The Dude\n -Baerbock", ">\n\nPutin's a nihilist?", ">\n\nNoooo funny business, Putbowski", ">\n\nWe ba-lieve in nassing…", ">\n\nI think Putin feels he is above all that, he is untouchable. IMHO the only hope to end the war is for Putin to commit suicide or be assassinated.", ">\n\nKill Putin, someone else will be put in place by the oligarchs. You won't change too much.", ">\n\nI don't think that would happen. The oligarchs likely don't have the megalomaniac inclination Putin has. I don't see them wanting to continue down the road of attaching Ukraine.\nAlthough In the long run, I don't see Russia as becoming a \"nice\" country.", ">\n\nBaerbock proposes special tribunal to fuck the Russian raw", ">\n\nAnnalena is tough, if she could, she would drag Putin by his ear to Nürnberg herself.", ">\n\nShe’s one of the few German politicians I’m really fond of. It’s no wonder why the Greens are doing so well in the polls", ">\n\nMy family keeps hating on her because she misspoke like once or twice in front of the press. They literally do not have one real point of attack, no valid criticism, so they have to resort to personal attacks. It's sad. She's actually quite impressive.", ">\n\nPlagiarized her book? Faked her resume? Spouse became a lobbyist? I mean, she joins a long list of German politicians in these, but she’s not exactly unbefleckt.", ">\n\nWhy stop with Russian leadership? Going after everyone involved in Russian military, logistics, and State media disinformation may have serious affects on there mobilization capacity.", ">\n\nQuestion. What actual crime can they charge Russian State Media personalities with?\nThe West cant find the legal means to deal with sources of misinformation in their own countries, I struggle to see how they can deal with sources of misinformation in another country?", ">\n\nPropaganda organs have been prosecuted as accessory for crimes against humanity in the past.\nThis is actually what the Nuremberg trials were about: how can you proescute a country based on laws that were LEGAL in said country? By which authority do you judge?\nThis is how human rights were even established: laws universial to every human, regardless of national laws. Human laws trump national laws, regardless of where or if that country is not even a signatory to any human rights convention (since there weren't any at the end of WW2).\nAnd this is ALSO why most of the EU has \"anti hate-speech\" laws as they are considered a human rights violation. Or at least as \"preparing the way to make human rights violations acceptable\".", ">\n\nI can see him sitting on a stool without handles to hold on to, in a little glascage, alone, and outside all the people he have singlehanded made widows, childless, fatherless, motherless, quietly starring at him while they each poor a little bottle of water into a hole that slowly fill the cage, staring him right in his scared little face without anyone there to help him, no need for a tribunal...", ">\n\nI hate this kind of talk. due process and a permanent, wide open public record of everything he's responsible for is the way. \nthen Germany can reactivate Spandau for him.", ">\n\nIt's very disturbing how some comments on Reddit really read like some sociopathic behavior. It's not the first time someone promotes torture here.", ">\n\n\nman who lived by the sword is proposed to die by the sword\nNooooo, not the heckin' human rightserinooooos", ">\n\nThat's the point, we need to stay better than those we condemned otherwise we're just hypocrites.", ">\n\nIf that was true, the penalty for forcible confinement couldn't be imprisonment.", ">\n\nThis is a BS idea because “we” will never be able to imprison Putin. He will either be overthrown and die by Russian hands or he will die in Russia as president or with cover from some next dictator.\nGermany needs to stop talking about tribunals and start sending tanks to Ukraine already.Focus on how you can help the Ukrainian people now , don’t offer some utopian solution that has no basis in reality.", ">\n\nIMO there’s a nonzero chance a new Russian leader might hand Putin over to get into the West‘s good graces.", ">\n\nWho might that new leader be? Anyone who has the power to force a change is just as culpable. There is no central opposition to unite and lead the masses so any popular revolt will be picked apart bit by bit.", ">\n\nHey, I never said anything about making actual changes!\nHonestly though: No clue. It's an incredibly unlikely scenario anyways.", ">\n\nPutins gonna get fucked baerbock.", ">\n\nSuch measures are probably counterproductive because it will just make it less likely than Putin will give up and instead will fight to the bitter end.\nOf course such charges could also be negotiated away in order to try to get Putin to give up. Basically if he quits he can go into exile.", ">\n\nWhere was this proposal when the Bush administration was invading Iraq?", ">\n\nNo one complains when the Power Rangers destroys the aliens with the Megazord. Good guys get a free pass", ">\n\nIs Germany going to go into Russia and bring these people to justice?\nThe answer is no. This is just (empty) political theatre.", ">\n\nGermany going into Russia is probably the only way Putin could actually still win this war", ">\n\nFinally, someone grew a pair!", ">\n\nIf you didt noticed putin doesn give a fuck", ">\n\nRussia is still one of the Great Powers. Nobody will go to arrest him without taking a nuke to the face.", ">\n\nHuh? It's a regional power at best.", ">\n\nWhat else are there? The US and China are the only Superpowers. The only Great Powers of Europe that remain are because of their militaries including nukes. It is why Germany is no more a great power, and it had no colonies anymore. The UK has its possessions, so do France, and Russia its Near Abroad. Everyone else may have some armies but not nukes enough and no colonies.", ">\n\nOh now there’s consequences? So before now there were no consequences?", ">\n\nNow if only Germany stopped stalling and blocking others from delivering equipment Ukraine needs to make it happen that would be great.", ">\n\nThat'll show him /s", ">\n\nLOL. You let him get away with Crimea. Let's stop play acting.", ">\n\nMust he?...", ">\n\nCriminal ad hoc tribunals are a legal aberration that are prohited by good reason at a national level by most democratic constitutions.\nIt's time to give the International Criminal Court, that was made to prosecute this kind of thing, actual jurisdiction over the world and a way to effectively enforce their judgements.", ">\n\nThey have Jurisdiction in Ukraine, from a Jurisdictional standpoint it isn't a problem really as Ukraine consented to ICC Jurisdiction.", ">\n\nBut not Russia, even if the country came under new management, I have a hard time believing they would allow this.\nCan see someone pulling an Eichmann on them tho.", ">\n\nBetter give tanks to Ukrainians. If Ukraine loose, forget tribunal. Mean time German FM can do something more useful. For example play golf." ]

[ "They can offer Nuremberg. It has the premises ready", ">\n\nWould be truly symbolic, not that there would be any chance to extract Putin and his cronies from Russia, while it still possesses nukes...", ">\n\nThere is certainly a chance. There are 147 million people in the Russian federation. They can throw 147 into the court system. A court system which will give those 147 men the opportunity to defend themselves and to face consequences only for actions which those 147 men are actually guilty of and no more. In exchange Russia gets the opportunity to participate in global civilization and share the freedom and prosperity. If they do not take the offer the Russian people have to languish under the despotism of those same 147 criminals. \nI do not know the odds but they are greater than zero.", ">\n\nI don't mean to shit on your idea because it isn't bad, it's just unrealistic. First off, you know those 147 men would consist of critics of Putin and journalists he was already about to assassinate anyway.\nBut the even bigger issue is the assumption that they would want to participate in this current global civilization. Putin banked all his capital on the \"history is written by the victor\" sentiment, not to mention the shared sentiment with China of forcing their perception on other nations with weaponized hypocrisy.\nPutin will never admit that his invasion failed, or that he committed war crimes or give up land. He wants to fight until the rest of the world is fatigued enough to concede and admit defeat to just end this already.\nAnd while it's definitely a condemnable attitude, he wouldn't stick to this if it weren't normalized in the past. The Crimea has been annexed since 2014, yet it was more convenient for everyone to just agree that \"those aren't Russian army men\" even though of course they were.\nSame with China putting pressure on the West to turn a blind eye on its' many questionable practices.\nYou can't just roll over and allow autocrats to do whatever and then expect them to suddenly respect you.", ">\n\nI meant Putin can be overthrown. The new administration rounds up the former leadership. \n\nYou can't just roll over and allow autocrats to do whatever and then expect them to suddenly respect you.\n\nBut a people can overthrow their autocratic regime and then become a respected nation.", ">\n\nHe can, but if you look at the timeline of the Russian Revolution of 1917 as a timeline, that ain't exactly a quick process either", ">\n\nCall me when they have Putin in custody. \nHe gives zero shits if his top people end up going to prison for war crimes. \nAnd there’s no way the war doesn’t end without:\n\nPutin dead \nPutin negotiating a deal where he never is held personally responsible. \n\nIt’s right in the dictator handbook. If you kill enough people, other countries will offer to give you a pass just to get you to stop.", ">\n\nHes only going to use it as propaganda, like \"evil west wants to judge me for defending mother russia\".", ">\n\nWhile I agree he should be held accountable, what are they going to do? Walk up to the Kremlin with 20 cops knock on the door and arrest him? This is nothing", ">\n\nNo. The Russians will do that.", ">\n\nI’m not 100% sure about that he’s put fear and blind loyalty in the right places", ">\n\nFear yes! Loyalty I'm not so sure. Seems like those most loyal have had some tragic and fatal accidents as of late. Price of failure I guess. But I'm more sure that those that remain are doing so more out of complete fear than anything else. Putin has everyone guessing who is truly loyal that everyone is too afraid to band together with the other fearful to remove him.", ">\n\nNah some of them mf act like golom and vlad is the god damn ring", ">\n\nNuremberg would be a great location.", ">\n\nThis is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 72%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nTHE HAGUE - The international community should establish a special tribunal to bring Russian President Vladimir Putin and his regime to trial over their war of aggression against Ukraine, German Foreign Minister Annalena Baerbock said Monday.\nIn a keynote speech following a visit to the International Criminal Court in The Hague, Baerbock emphasized the need to hold the Russian leadership \"Accountable\" for their invasion, which started almost a year ago.\nTo avoid this impasse, Baerbock said she wanted to form, together with partner countries, \"a special tribunal\" to address the crime of aggression against Ukraine that could investigate and try the Russian leadership.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: international^#1 Court^#2 tribunal^#3 crime^#4 Ukraine^#5", ">\n\nI think that's a fantastic idea.", ">\n\n“This aggression will not stand, man”\n-The Dude\n -Baerbock", ">\n\nPutin's a nihilist?", ">\n\nNoooo funny business, Putbowski", ">\n\nWe ba-lieve in nassing…", ">\n\nI think Putin feels he is above all that, he is untouchable. IMHO the only hope to end the war is for Putin to commit suicide or be assassinated.", ">\n\nKill Putin, someone else will be put in place by the oligarchs. You won't change too much.", ">\n\nI don't think that would happen. The oligarchs likely don't have the megalomaniac inclination Putin has. I don't see them wanting to continue down the road of attaching Ukraine.\nAlthough In the long run, I don't see Russia as becoming a \"nice\" country.", ">\n\nBaerbock proposes special tribunal to fuck the Russian raw", ">\n\nAnnalena is tough, if she could, she would drag Putin by his ear to Nürnberg herself.", ">\n\nShe’s one of the few German politicians I’m really fond of. It’s no wonder why the Greens are doing so well in the polls", ">\n\nMy family keeps hating on her because she misspoke like once or twice in front of the press. They literally do not have one real point of attack, no valid criticism, so they have to resort to personal attacks. It's sad. She's actually quite impressive.", ">\n\nPlagiarized her book? Faked her resume? Spouse became a lobbyist? I mean, she joins a long list of German politicians in these, but she’s not exactly unbefleckt.", ">\n\nWhy stop with Russian leadership? Going after everyone involved in Russian military, logistics, and State media disinformation may have serious affects on there mobilization capacity.", ">\n\nQuestion. What actual crime can they charge Russian State Media personalities with?\nThe West cant find the legal means to deal with sources of misinformation in their own countries, I struggle to see how they can deal with sources of misinformation in another country?", ">\n\nPropaganda organs have been prosecuted as accessory for crimes against humanity in the past.\nThis is actually what the Nuremberg trials were about: how can you proescute a country based on laws that were LEGAL in said country? By which authority do you judge?\nThis is how human rights were even established: laws universial to every human, regardless of national laws. Human laws trump national laws, regardless of where or if that country is not even a signatory to any human rights convention (since there weren't any at the end of WW2).\nAnd this is ALSO why most of the EU has \"anti hate-speech\" laws as they are considered a human rights violation. Or at least as \"preparing the way to make human rights violations acceptable\".", ">\n\nI can see him sitting on a stool without handles to hold on to, in a little glascage, alone, and outside all the people he have singlehanded made widows, childless, fatherless, motherless, quietly starring at him while they each poor a little bottle of water into a hole that slowly fill the cage, staring him right in his scared little face without anyone there to help him, no need for a tribunal...", ">\n\nI hate this kind of talk. due process and a permanent, wide open public record of everything he's responsible for is the way. \nthen Germany can reactivate Spandau for him.", ">\n\nIt's very disturbing how some comments on Reddit really read like some sociopathic behavior. It's not the first time someone promotes torture here.", ">\n\n\nman who lived by the sword is proposed to die by the sword\nNooooo, not the heckin' human rightserinooooos", ">\n\nThat's the point, we need to stay better than those we condemned otherwise we're just hypocrites.", ">\n\nIf that was true, the penalty for forcible confinement couldn't be imprisonment.", ">\n\nThis is a BS idea because “we” will never be able to imprison Putin. He will either be overthrown and die by Russian hands or he will die in Russia as president or with cover from some next dictator.\nGermany needs to stop talking about tribunals and start sending tanks to Ukraine already.Focus on how you can help the Ukrainian people now , don’t offer some utopian solution that has no basis in reality.", ">\n\nIMO there’s a nonzero chance a new Russian leader might hand Putin over to get into the West‘s good graces.", ">\n\nWho might that new leader be? Anyone who has the power to force a change is just as culpable. There is no central opposition to unite and lead the masses so any popular revolt will be picked apart bit by bit.", ">\n\nHey, I never said anything about making actual changes!\nHonestly though: No clue. It's an incredibly unlikely scenario anyways.", ">\n\nPutins gonna get fucked baerbock.", ">\n\nSuch measures are probably counterproductive because it will just make it less likely than Putin will give up and instead will fight to the bitter end.\nOf course such charges could also be negotiated away in order to try to get Putin to give up. Basically if he quits he can go into exile.", ">\n\nWhere was this proposal when the Bush administration was invading Iraq?", ">\n\nNo one complains when the Power Rangers destroys the aliens with the Megazord. Good guys get a free pass", ">\n\nIs Germany going to go into Russia and bring these people to justice?\nThe answer is no. This is just (empty) political theatre.", ">\n\nGermany going into Russia is probably the only way Putin could actually still win this war", ">\n\nFinally, someone grew a pair!", ">\n\nIf you didt noticed putin doesn give a fuck", ">\n\nRussia is still one of the Great Powers. Nobody will go to arrest him without taking a nuke to the face.", ">\n\nHuh? It's a regional power at best.", ">\n\nWhat else are there? The US and China are the only Superpowers. The only Great Powers of Europe that remain are because of their militaries including nukes. It is why Germany is no more a great power, and it had no colonies anymore. The UK has its possessions, so do France, and Russia its Near Abroad. Everyone else may have some armies but not nukes enough and no colonies.", ">\n\nOh now there’s consequences? So before now there were no consequences?", ">\n\nNow if only Germany stopped stalling and blocking others from delivering equipment Ukraine needs to make it happen that would be great.", ">\n\nThat'll show him /s", ">\n\nLOL. You let him get away with Crimea. Let's stop play acting.", ">\n\nMust he?...", ">\n\nCriminal ad hoc tribunals are a legal aberration that are prohited by good reason at a national level by most democratic constitutions.\nIt's time to give the International Criminal Court, that was made to prosecute this kind of thing, actual jurisdiction over the world and a way to effectively enforce their judgements.", ">\n\nThey have Jurisdiction in Ukraine, from a Jurisdictional standpoint it isn't a problem really as Ukraine consented to ICC Jurisdiction.", ">\n\nBut not Russia, even if the country came under new management, I have a hard time believing they would allow this.\nCan see someone pulling an Eichmann on them tho.", ">\n\nBetter give tanks to Ukrainians. If Ukraine loose, forget tribunal. Mean time German FM can do something more useful. For example play golf.", ">\n\nThis aggression will not stand, man!" ]

[ "They can offer Nuremberg. It has the premises ready", ">\n\nWould be truly symbolic, not that there would be any chance to extract Putin and his cronies from Russia, while it still possesses nukes...", ">\n\nThere is certainly a chance. There are 147 million people in the Russian federation. They can throw 147 into the court system. A court system which will give those 147 men the opportunity to defend themselves and to face consequences only for actions which those 147 men are actually guilty of and no more. In exchange Russia gets the opportunity to participate in global civilization and share the freedom and prosperity. If they do not take the offer the Russian people have to languish under the despotism of those same 147 criminals. \nI do not know the odds but they are greater than zero.", ">\n\nI don't mean to shit on your idea because it isn't bad, it's just unrealistic. First off, you know those 147 men would consist of critics of Putin and journalists he was already about to assassinate anyway.\nBut the even bigger issue is the assumption that they would want to participate in this current global civilization. Putin banked all his capital on the \"history is written by the victor\" sentiment, not to mention the shared sentiment with China of forcing their perception on other nations with weaponized hypocrisy.\nPutin will never admit that his invasion failed, or that he committed war crimes or give up land. He wants to fight until the rest of the world is fatigued enough to concede and admit defeat to just end this already.\nAnd while it's definitely a condemnable attitude, he wouldn't stick to this if it weren't normalized in the past. The Crimea has been annexed since 2014, yet it was more convenient for everyone to just agree that \"those aren't Russian army men\" even though of course they were.\nSame with China putting pressure on the West to turn a blind eye on its' many questionable practices.\nYou can't just roll over and allow autocrats to do whatever and then expect them to suddenly respect you.", ">\n\nI meant Putin can be overthrown. The new administration rounds up the former leadership. \n\nYou can't just roll over and allow autocrats to do whatever and then expect them to suddenly respect you.\n\nBut a people can overthrow their autocratic regime and then become a respected nation.", ">\n\nHe can, but if you look at the timeline of the Russian Revolution of 1917 as a timeline, that ain't exactly a quick process either", ">\n\nCall me when they have Putin in custody. \nHe gives zero shits if his top people end up going to prison for war crimes. \nAnd there’s no way the war doesn’t end without:\n\nPutin dead \nPutin negotiating a deal where he never is held personally responsible. \n\nIt’s right in the dictator handbook. If you kill enough people, other countries will offer to give you a pass just to get you to stop.", ">\n\nHes only going to use it as propaganda, like \"evil west wants to judge me for defending mother russia\".", ">\n\nWhile I agree he should be held accountable, what are they going to do? Walk up to the Kremlin with 20 cops knock on the door and arrest him? This is nothing", ">\n\nNo. The Russians will do that.", ">\n\nI’m not 100% sure about that he’s put fear and blind loyalty in the right places", ">\n\nFear yes! Loyalty I'm not so sure. Seems like those most loyal have had some tragic and fatal accidents as of late. Price of failure I guess. But I'm more sure that those that remain are doing so more out of complete fear than anything else. Putin has everyone guessing who is truly loyal that everyone is too afraid to band together with the other fearful to remove him.", ">\n\nNah some of them mf act like golom and vlad is the god damn ring", ">\n\nNuremberg would be a great location.", ">\n\nThis is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 72%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nTHE HAGUE - The international community should establish a special tribunal to bring Russian President Vladimir Putin and his regime to trial over their war of aggression against Ukraine, German Foreign Minister Annalena Baerbock said Monday.\nIn a keynote speech following a visit to the International Criminal Court in The Hague, Baerbock emphasized the need to hold the Russian leadership \"Accountable\" for their invasion, which started almost a year ago.\nTo avoid this impasse, Baerbock said she wanted to form, together with partner countries, \"a special tribunal\" to address the crime of aggression against Ukraine that could investigate and try the Russian leadership.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: international^#1 Court^#2 tribunal^#3 crime^#4 Ukraine^#5", ">\n\nI think that's a fantastic idea.", ">\n\n“This aggression will not stand, man”\n-The Dude\n -Baerbock", ">\n\nPutin's a nihilist?", ">\n\nNoooo funny business, Putbowski", ">\n\nWe ba-lieve in nassing…", ">\n\nI think Putin feels he is above all that, he is untouchable. IMHO the only hope to end the war is for Putin to commit suicide or be assassinated.", ">\n\nKill Putin, someone else will be put in place by the oligarchs. You won't change too much.", ">\n\nI don't think that would happen. The oligarchs likely don't have the megalomaniac inclination Putin has. I don't see them wanting to continue down the road of attaching Ukraine.\nAlthough In the long run, I don't see Russia as becoming a \"nice\" country.", ">\n\nBaerbock proposes special tribunal to fuck the Russian raw", ">\n\nAnnalena is tough, if she could, she would drag Putin by his ear to Nürnberg herself.", ">\n\nShe’s one of the few German politicians I’m really fond of. It’s no wonder why the Greens are doing so well in the polls", ">\n\nMy family keeps hating on her because she misspoke like once or twice in front of the press. They literally do not have one real point of attack, no valid criticism, so they have to resort to personal attacks. It's sad. She's actually quite impressive.", ">\n\nPlagiarized her book? Faked her resume? Spouse became a lobbyist? I mean, she joins a long list of German politicians in these, but she’s not exactly unbefleckt.", ">\n\nWhy stop with Russian leadership? Going after everyone involved in Russian military, logistics, and State media disinformation may have serious affects on there mobilization capacity.", ">\n\nQuestion. What actual crime can they charge Russian State Media personalities with?\nThe West cant find the legal means to deal with sources of misinformation in their own countries, I struggle to see how they can deal with sources of misinformation in another country?", ">\n\nPropaganda organs have been prosecuted as accessory for crimes against humanity in the past.\nThis is actually what the Nuremberg trials were about: how can you proescute a country based on laws that were LEGAL in said country? By which authority do you judge?\nThis is how human rights were even established: laws universial to every human, regardless of national laws. Human laws trump national laws, regardless of where or if that country is not even a signatory to any human rights convention (since there weren't any at the end of WW2).\nAnd this is ALSO why most of the EU has \"anti hate-speech\" laws as they are considered a human rights violation. Or at least as \"preparing the way to make human rights violations acceptable\".", ">\n\nI can see him sitting on a stool without handles to hold on to, in a little glascage, alone, and outside all the people he have singlehanded made widows, childless, fatherless, motherless, quietly starring at him while they each poor a little bottle of water into a hole that slowly fill the cage, staring him right in his scared little face without anyone there to help him, no need for a tribunal...", ">\n\nI hate this kind of talk. due process and a permanent, wide open public record of everything he's responsible for is the way. \nthen Germany can reactivate Spandau for him.", ">\n\nIt's very disturbing how some comments on Reddit really read like some sociopathic behavior. It's not the first time someone promotes torture here.", ">\n\n\nman who lived by the sword is proposed to die by the sword\nNooooo, not the heckin' human rightserinooooos", ">\n\nThat's the point, we need to stay better than those we condemned otherwise we're just hypocrites.", ">\n\nIf that was true, the penalty for forcible confinement couldn't be imprisonment.", ">\n\nThis is a BS idea because “we” will never be able to imprison Putin. He will either be overthrown and die by Russian hands or he will die in Russia as president or with cover from some next dictator.\nGermany needs to stop talking about tribunals and start sending tanks to Ukraine already.Focus on how you can help the Ukrainian people now , don’t offer some utopian solution that has no basis in reality.", ">\n\nIMO there’s a nonzero chance a new Russian leader might hand Putin over to get into the West‘s good graces.", ">\n\nWho might that new leader be? Anyone who has the power to force a change is just as culpable. There is no central opposition to unite and lead the masses so any popular revolt will be picked apart bit by bit.", ">\n\nHey, I never said anything about making actual changes!\nHonestly though: No clue. It's an incredibly unlikely scenario anyways.", ">\n\nPutins gonna get fucked baerbock.", ">\n\nSuch measures are probably counterproductive because it will just make it less likely than Putin will give up and instead will fight to the bitter end.\nOf course such charges could also be negotiated away in order to try to get Putin to give up. Basically if he quits he can go into exile.", ">\n\nWhere was this proposal when the Bush administration was invading Iraq?", ">\n\nNo one complains when the Power Rangers destroys the aliens with the Megazord. Good guys get a free pass", ">\n\nIs Germany going to go into Russia and bring these people to justice?\nThe answer is no. This is just (empty) political theatre.", ">\n\nGermany going into Russia is probably the only way Putin could actually still win this war", ">\n\nFinally, someone grew a pair!", ">\n\nIf you didt noticed putin doesn give a fuck", ">\n\nRussia is still one of the Great Powers. Nobody will go to arrest him without taking a nuke to the face.", ">\n\nHuh? It's a regional power at best.", ">\n\nWhat else are there? The US and China are the only Superpowers. The only Great Powers of Europe that remain are because of their militaries including nukes. It is why Germany is no more a great power, and it had no colonies anymore. The UK has its possessions, so do France, and Russia its Near Abroad. Everyone else may have some armies but not nukes enough and no colonies.", ">\n\nOh now there’s consequences? So before now there were no consequences?", ">\n\nNow if only Germany stopped stalling and blocking others from delivering equipment Ukraine needs to make it happen that would be great.", ">\n\nThat'll show him /s", ">\n\nLOL. You let him get away with Crimea. Let's stop play acting.", ">\n\nMust he?...", ">\n\nCriminal ad hoc tribunals are a legal aberration that are prohited by good reason at a national level by most democratic constitutions.\nIt's time to give the International Criminal Court, that was made to prosecute this kind of thing, actual jurisdiction over the world and a way to effectively enforce their judgements.", ">\n\nThey have Jurisdiction in Ukraine, from a Jurisdictional standpoint it isn't a problem really as Ukraine consented to ICC Jurisdiction.", ">\n\nBut not Russia, even if the country came under new management, I have a hard time believing they would allow this.\nCan see someone pulling an Eichmann on them tho.", ">\n\nBetter give tanks to Ukrainians. If Ukraine loose, forget tribunal. Mean time German FM can do something more useful. For example play golf.", ">\n\nThis aggression will not stand, man!", ">\n\nBy the time the debate rages 100 more lives will be lost and thousands will be left in the freezing weather. The priority should be to to stop this .whatever that takes . It is in no one's interest to continue this war." ]

[ "They can offer Nuremberg. It has the premises ready", ">\n\nWould be truly symbolic, not that there would be any chance to extract Putin and his cronies from Russia, while it still possesses nukes...", ">\n\nThere is certainly a chance. There are 147 million people in the Russian federation. They can throw 147 into the court system. A court system which will give those 147 men the opportunity to defend themselves and to face consequences only for actions which those 147 men are actually guilty of and no more. In exchange Russia gets the opportunity to participate in global civilization and share the freedom and prosperity. If they do not take the offer the Russian people have to languish under the despotism of those same 147 criminals. \nI do not know the odds but they are greater than zero.", ">\n\nI don't mean to shit on your idea because it isn't bad, it's just unrealistic. First off, you know those 147 men would consist of critics of Putin and journalists he was already about to assassinate anyway.\nBut the even bigger issue is the assumption that they would want to participate in this current global civilization. Putin banked all his capital on the \"history is written by the victor\" sentiment, not to mention the shared sentiment with China of forcing their perception on other nations with weaponized hypocrisy.\nPutin will never admit that his invasion failed, or that he committed war crimes or give up land. He wants to fight until the rest of the world is fatigued enough to concede and admit defeat to just end this already.\nAnd while it's definitely a condemnable attitude, he wouldn't stick to this if it weren't normalized in the past. The Crimea has been annexed since 2014, yet it was more convenient for everyone to just agree that \"those aren't Russian army men\" even though of course they were.\nSame with China putting pressure on the West to turn a blind eye on its' many questionable practices.\nYou can't just roll over and allow autocrats to do whatever and then expect them to suddenly respect you.", ">\n\nI meant Putin can be overthrown. The new administration rounds up the former leadership. \n\nYou can't just roll over and allow autocrats to do whatever and then expect them to suddenly respect you.\n\nBut a people can overthrow their autocratic regime and then become a respected nation.", ">\n\nHe can, but if you look at the timeline of the Russian Revolution of 1917 as a timeline, that ain't exactly a quick process either", ">\n\nCall me when they have Putin in custody. \nHe gives zero shits if his top people end up going to prison for war crimes. \nAnd there’s no way the war doesn’t end without:\n\nPutin dead \nPutin negotiating a deal where he never is held personally responsible. \n\nIt’s right in the dictator handbook. If you kill enough people, other countries will offer to give you a pass just to get you to stop.", ">\n\nHes only going to use it as propaganda, like \"evil west wants to judge me for defending mother russia\".", ">\n\nWhile I agree he should be held accountable, what are they going to do? Walk up to the Kremlin with 20 cops knock on the door and arrest him? This is nothing", ">\n\nNo. The Russians will do that.", ">\n\nI’m not 100% sure about that he’s put fear and blind loyalty in the right places", ">\n\nFear yes! Loyalty I'm not so sure. Seems like those most loyal have had some tragic and fatal accidents as of late. Price of failure I guess. But I'm more sure that those that remain are doing so more out of complete fear than anything else. Putin has everyone guessing who is truly loyal that everyone is too afraid to band together with the other fearful to remove him.", ">\n\nNah some of them mf act like golom and vlad is the god damn ring", ">\n\nNuremberg would be a great location.", ">\n\nThis is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 72%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nTHE HAGUE - The international community should establish a special tribunal to bring Russian President Vladimir Putin and his regime to trial over their war of aggression against Ukraine, German Foreign Minister Annalena Baerbock said Monday.\nIn a keynote speech following a visit to the International Criminal Court in The Hague, Baerbock emphasized the need to hold the Russian leadership \"Accountable\" for their invasion, which started almost a year ago.\nTo avoid this impasse, Baerbock said she wanted to form, together with partner countries, \"a special tribunal\" to address the crime of aggression against Ukraine that could investigate and try the Russian leadership.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: international^#1 Court^#2 tribunal^#3 crime^#4 Ukraine^#5", ">\n\nI think that's a fantastic idea.", ">\n\n“This aggression will not stand, man”\n-The Dude\n -Baerbock", ">\n\nPutin's a nihilist?", ">\n\nNoooo funny business, Putbowski", ">\n\nWe ba-lieve in nassing…", ">\n\nI think Putin feels he is above all that, he is untouchable. IMHO the only hope to end the war is for Putin to commit suicide or be assassinated.", ">\n\nKill Putin, someone else will be put in place by the oligarchs. You won't change too much.", ">\n\nI don't think that would happen. The oligarchs likely don't have the megalomaniac inclination Putin has. I don't see them wanting to continue down the road of attaching Ukraine.\nAlthough In the long run, I don't see Russia as becoming a \"nice\" country.", ">\n\nBaerbock proposes special tribunal to fuck the Russian raw", ">\n\nAnnalena is tough, if she could, she would drag Putin by his ear to Nürnberg herself.", ">\n\nShe’s one of the few German politicians I’m really fond of. It’s no wonder why the Greens are doing so well in the polls", ">\n\nMy family keeps hating on her because she misspoke like once or twice in front of the press. They literally do not have one real point of attack, no valid criticism, so they have to resort to personal attacks. It's sad. She's actually quite impressive.", ">\n\nPlagiarized her book? Faked her resume? Spouse became a lobbyist? I mean, she joins a long list of German politicians in these, but she’s not exactly unbefleckt.", ">\n\nWhy stop with Russian leadership? Going after everyone involved in Russian military, logistics, and State media disinformation may have serious affects on there mobilization capacity.", ">\n\nQuestion. What actual crime can they charge Russian State Media personalities with?\nThe West cant find the legal means to deal with sources of misinformation in their own countries, I struggle to see how they can deal with sources of misinformation in another country?", ">\n\nPropaganda organs have been prosecuted as accessory for crimes against humanity in the past.\nThis is actually what the Nuremberg trials were about: how can you proescute a country based on laws that were LEGAL in said country? By which authority do you judge?\nThis is how human rights were even established: laws universial to every human, regardless of national laws. Human laws trump national laws, regardless of where or if that country is not even a signatory to any human rights convention (since there weren't any at the end of WW2).\nAnd this is ALSO why most of the EU has \"anti hate-speech\" laws as they are considered a human rights violation. Or at least as \"preparing the way to make human rights violations acceptable\".", ">\n\nI can see him sitting on a stool without handles to hold on to, in a little glascage, alone, and outside all the people he have singlehanded made widows, childless, fatherless, motherless, quietly starring at him while they each poor a little bottle of water into a hole that slowly fill the cage, staring him right in his scared little face without anyone there to help him, no need for a tribunal...", ">\n\nI hate this kind of talk. due process and a permanent, wide open public record of everything he's responsible for is the way. \nthen Germany can reactivate Spandau for him.", ">\n\nIt's very disturbing how some comments on Reddit really read like some sociopathic behavior. It's not the first time someone promotes torture here.", ">\n\n\nman who lived by the sword is proposed to die by the sword\nNooooo, not the heckin' human rightserinooooos", ">\n\nThat's the point, we need to stay better than those we condemned otherwise we're just hypocrites.", ">\n\nIf that was true, the penalty for forcible confinement couldn't be imprisonment.", ">\n\nThis is a BS idea because “we” will never be able to imprison Putin. He will either be overthrown and die by Russian hands or he will die in Russia as president or with cover from some next dictator.\nGermany needs to stop talking about tribunals and start sending tanks to Ukraine already.Focus on how you can help the Ukrainian people now , don’t offer some utopian solution that has no basis in reality.", ">\n\nIMO there’s a nonzero chance a new Russian leader might hand Putin over to get into the West‘s good graces.", ">\n\nWho might that new leader be? Anyone who has the power to force a change is just as culpable. There is no central opposition to unite and lead the masses so any popular revolt will be picked apart bit by bit.", ">\n\nHey, I never said anything about making actual changes!\nHonestly though: No clue. It's an incredibly unlikely scenario anyways.", ">\n\nPutins gonna get fucked baerbock.", ">\n\nSuch measures are probably counterproductive because it will just make it less likely than Putin will give up and instead will fight to the bitter end.\nOf course such charges could also be negotiated away in order to try to get Putin to give up. Basically if he quits he can go into exile.", ">\n\nWhere was this proposal when the Bush administration was invading Iraq?", ">\n\nNo one complains when the Power Rangers destroys the aliens with the Megazord. Good guys get a free pass", ">\n\nIs Germany going to go into Russia and bring these people to justice?\nThe answer is no. This is just (empty) political theatre.", ">\n\nGermany going into Russia is probably the only way Putin could actually still win this war", ">\n\nFinally, someone grew a pair!", ">\n\nIf you didt noticed putin doesn give a fuck", ">\n\nRussia is still one of the Great Powers. Nobody will go to arrest him without taking a nuke to the face.", ">\n\nHuh? It's a regional power at best.", ">\n\nWhat else are there? The US and China are the only Superpowers. The only Great Powers of Europe that remain are because of their militaries including nukes. It is why Germany is no more a great power, and it had no colonies anymore. The UK has its possessions, so do France, and Russia its Near Abroad. Everyone else may have some armies but not nukes enough and no colonies.", ">\n\nOh now there’s consequences? So before now there were no consequences?", ">\n\nNow if only Germany stopped stalling and blocking others from delivering equipment Ukraine needs to make it happen that would be great.", ">\n\nThat'll show him /s", ">\n\nLOL. You let him get away with Crimea. Let's stop play acting.", ">\n\nMust he?...", ">\n\nCriminal ad hoc tribunals are a legal aberration that are prohited by good reason at a national level by most democratic constitutions.\nIt's time to give the International Criminal Court, that was made to prosecute this kind of thing, actual jurisdiction over the world and a way to effectively enforce their judgements.", ">\n\nThey have Jurisdiction in Ukraine, from a Jurisdictional standpoint it isn't a problem really as Ukraine consented to ICC Jurisdiction.", ">\n\nBut not Russia, even if the country came under new management, I have a hard time believing they would allow this.\nCan see someone pulling an Eichmann on them tho.", ">\n\nBetter give tanks to Ukrainians. If Ukraine loose, forget tribunal. Mean time German FM can do something more useful. For example play golf.", ">\n\nThis aggression will not stand, man!", ">\n\nBy the time the debate rages 100 more lives will be lost and thousands will be left in the freezing weather. The priority should be to to stop this .whatever that takes . It is in no one's interest to continue this war.", ">\n\nAll for it. But while we're at it, can we also work on the backlog? Russia's not the first nation to go on unprovoked killing sprees since WW2. Making absolutely sure any tribunal prosecuting those responsible for committing wars of aggression and expansion to increase spheres of influence is seen as utterly impartial to the entire world has to be a priority here, if the desired effect is to prevent more of these behaviours in the future. Which it must, of course. The task is to establish a rule of law based international order again. It won't work, if what really determines whether you'll get trialled is the size of your military and the aggressiveness of your stance. Might as well not bother then, a lot of effort just to end up where we started, at might makes right." ]

[ "They can offer Nuremberg. It has the premises ready", ">\n\nWould be truly symbolic, not that there would be any chance to extract Putin and his cronies from Russia, while it still possesses nukes...", ">\n\nThere is certainly a chance. There are 147 million people in the Russian federation. They can throw 147 into the court system. A court system which will give those 147 men the opportunity to defend themselves and to face consequences only for actions which those 147 men are actually guilty of and no more. In exchange Russia gets the opportunity to participate in global civilization and share the freedom and prosperity. If they do not take the offer the Russian people have to languish under the despotism of those same 147 criminals. \nI do not know the odds but they are greater than zero.", ">\n\nI don't mean to shit on your idea because it isn't bad, it's just unrealistic. First off, you know those 147 men would consist of critics of Putin and journalists he was already about to assassinate anyway.\nBut the even bigger issue is the assumption that they would want to participate in this current global civilization. Putin banked all his capital on the \"history is written by the victor\" sentiment, not to mention the shared sentiment with China of forcing their perception on other nations with weaponized hypocrisy.\nPutin will never admit that his invasion failed, or that he committed war crimes or give up land. He wants to fight until the rest of the world is fatigued enough to concede and admit defeat to just end this already.\nAnd while it's definitely a condemnable attitude, he wouldn't stick to this if it weren't normalized in the past. The Crimea has been annexed since 2014, yet it was more convenient for everyone to just agree that \"those aren't Russian army men\" even though of course they were.\nSame with China putting pressure on the West to turn a blind eye on its' many questionable practices.\nYou can't just roll over and allow autocrats to do whatever and then expect them to suddenly respect you.", ">\n\nI meant Putin can be overthrown. The new administration rounds up the former leadership. \n\nYou can't just roll over and allow autocrats to do whatever and then expect them to suddenly respect you.\n\nBut a people can overthrow their autocratic regime and then become a respected nation.", ">\n\nHe can, but if you look at the timeline of the Russian Revolution of 1917 as a timeline, that ain't exactly a quick process either", ">\n\nCall me when they have Putin in custody. \nHe gives zero shits if his top people end up going to prison for war crimes. \nAnd there’s no way the war doesn’t end without:\n\nPutin dead \nPutin negotiating a deal where he never is held personally responsible. \n\nIt’s right in the dictator handbook. If you kill enough people, other countries will offer to give you a pass just to get you to stop.", ">\n\nHes only going to use it as propaganda, like \"evil west wants to judge me for defending mother russia\".", ">\n\nWhile I agree he should be held accountable, what are they going to do? Walk up to the Kremlin with 20 cops knock on the door and arrest him? This is nothing", ">\n\nNo. The Russians will do that.", ">\n\nI’m not 100% sure about that he’s put fear and blind loyalty in the right places", ">\n\nFear yes! Loyalty I'm not so sure. Seems like those most loyal have had some tragic and fatal accidents as of late. Price of failure I guess. But I'm more sure that those that remain are doing so more out of complete fear than anything else. Putin has everyone guessing who is truly loyal that everyone is too afraid to band together with the other fearful to remove him.", ">\n\nNah some of them mf act like golom and vlad is the god damn ring", ">\n\nNuremberg would be a great location.", ">\n\nThis is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 72%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nTHE HAGUE - The international community should establish a special tribunal to bring Russian President Vladimir Putin and his regime to trial over their war of aggression against Ukraine, German Foreign Minister Annalena Baerbock said Monday.\nIn a keynote speech following a visit to the International Criminal Court in The Hague, Baerbock emphasized the need to hold the Russian leadership \"Accountable\" for their invasion, which started almost a year ago.\nTo avoid this impasse, Baerbock said she wanted to form, together with partner countries, \"a special tribunal\" to address the crime of aggression against Ukraine that could investigate and try the Russian leadership.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: international^#1 Court^#2 tribunal^#3 crime^#4 Ukraine^#5", ">\n\nI think that's a fantastic idea.", ">\n\n“This aggression will not stand, man”\n-The Dude\n -Baerbock", ">\n\nPutin's a nihilist?", ">\n\nNoooo funny business, Putbowski", ">\n\nWe ba-lieve in nassing…", ">\n\nI think Putin feels he is above all that, he is untouchable. IMHO the only hope to end the war is for Putin to commit suicide or be assassinated.", ">\n\nKill Putin, someone else will be put in place by the oligarchs. You won't change too much.", ">\n\nI don't think that would happen. The oligarchs likely don't have the megalomaniac inclination Putin has. I don't see them wanting to continue down the road of attaching Ukraine.\nAlthough In the long run, I don't see Russia as becoming a \"nice\" country.", ">\n\nBaerbock proposes special tribunal to fuck the Russian raw", ">\n\nAnnalena is tough, if she could, she would drag Putin by his ear to Nürnberg herself.", ">\n\nShe’s one of the few German politicians I’m really fond of. It’s no wonder why the Greens are doing so well in the polls", ">\n\nMy family keeps hating on her because she misspoke like once or twice in front of the press. They literally do not have one real point of attack, no valid criticism, so they have to resort to personal attacks. It's sad. She's actually quite impressive.", ">\n\nPlagiarized her book? Faked her resume? Spouse became a lobbyist? I mean, she joins a long list of German politicians in these, but she’s not exactly unbefleckt.", ">\n\nWhy stop with Russian leadership? Going after everyone involved in Russian military, logistics, and State media disinformation may have serious affects on there mobilization capacity.", ">\n\nQuestion. What actual crime can they charge Russian State Media personalities with?\nThe West cant find the legal means to deal with sources of misinformation in their own countries, I struggle to see how they can deal with sources of misinformation in another country?", ">\n\nPropaganda organs have been prosecuted as accessory for crimes against humanity in the past.\nThis is actually what the Nuremberg trials were about: how can you proescute a country based on laws that were LEGAL in said country? By which authority do you judge?\nThis is how human rights were even established: laws universial to every human, regardless of national laws. Human laws trump national laws, regardless of where or if that country is not even a signatory to any human rights convention (since there weren't any at the end of WW2).\nAnd this is ALSO why most of the EU has \"anti hate-speech\" laws as they are considered a human rights violation. Or at least as \"preparing the way to make human rights violations acceptable\".", ">\n\nI can see him sitting on a stool without handles to hold on to, in a little glascage, alone, and outside all the people he have singlehanded made widows, childless, fatherless, motherless, quietly starring at him while they each poor a little bottle of water into a hole that slowly fill the cage, staring him right in his scared little face without anyone there to help him, no need for a tribunal...", ">\n\nI hate this kind of talk. due process and a permanent, wide open public record of everything he's responsible for is the way. \nthen Germany can reactivate Spandau for him.", ">\n\nIt's very disturbing how some comments on Reddit really read like some sociopathic behavior. It's not the first time someone promotes torture here.", ">\n\n\nman who lived by the sword is proposed to die by the sword\nNooooo, not the heckin' human rightserinooooos", ">\n\nThat's the point, we need to stay better than those we condemned otherwise we're just hypocrites.", ">\n\nIf that was true, the penalty for forcible confinement couldn't be imprisonment.", ">\n\nThis is a BS idea because “we” will never be able to imprison Putin. He will either be overthrown and die by Russian hands or he will die in Russia as president or with cover from some next dictator.\nGermany needs to stop talking about tribunals and start sending tanks to Ukraine already.Focus on how you can help the Ukrainian people now , don’t offer some utopian solution that has no basis in reality.", ">\n\nIMO there’s a nonzero chance a new Russian leader might hand Putin over to get into the West‘s good graces.", ">\n\nWho might that new leader be? Anyone who has the power to force a change is just as culpable. There is no central opposition to unite and lead the masses so any popular revolt will be picked apart bit by bit.", ">\n\nHey, I never said anything about making actual changes!\nHonestly though: No clue. It's an incredibly unlikely scenario anyways.", ">\n\nPutins gonna get fucked baerbock.", ">\n\nSuch measures are probably counterproductive because it will just make it less likely than Putin will give up and instead will fight to the bitter end.\nOf course such charges could also be negotiated away in order to try to get Putin to give up. Basically if he quits he can go into exile.", ">\n\nWhere was this proposal when the Bush administration was invading Iraq?", ">\n\nNo one complains when the Power Rangers destroys the aliens with the Megazord. Good guys get a free pass", ">\n\nIs Germany going to go into Russia and bring these people to justice?\nThe answer is no. This is just (empty) political theatre.", ">\n\nGermany going into Russia is probably the only way Putin could actually still win this war", ">\n\nFinally, someone grew a pair!", ">\n\nIf you didt noticed putin doesn give a fuck", ">\n\nRussia is still one of the Great Powers. Nobody will go to arrest him without taking a nuke to the face.", ">\n\nHuh? It's a regional power at best.", ">\n\nWhat else are there? The US and China are the only Superpowers. The only Great Powers of Europe that remain are because of their militaries including nukes. It is why Germany is no more a great power, and it had no colonies anymore. The UK has its possessions, so do France, and Russia its Near Abroad. Everyone else may have some armies but not nukes enough and no colonies.", ">\n\nOh now there’s consequences? So before now there were no consequences?", ">\n\nNow if only Germany stopped stalling and blocking others from delivering equipment Ukraine needs to make it happen that would be great.", ">\n\nThat'll show him /s", ">\n\nLOL. You let him get away with Crimea. Let's stop play acting.", ">\n\nMust he?...", ">\n\nCriminal ad hoc tribunals are a legal aberration that are prohited by good reason at a national level by most democratic constitutions.\nIt's time to give the International Criminal Court, that was made to prosecute this kind of thing, actual jurisdiction over the world and a way to effectively enforce their judgements.", ">\n\nThey have Jurisdiction in Ukraine, from a Jurisdictional standpoint it isn't a problem really as Ukraine consented to ICC Jurisdiction.", ">\n\nBut not Russia, even if the country came under new management, I have a hard time believing they would allow this.\nCan see someone pulling an Eichmann on them tho.", ">\n\nBetter give tanks to Ukrainians. If Ukraine loose, forget tribunal. Mean time German FM can do something more useful. For example play golf.", ">\n\nThis aggression will not stand, man!", ">\n\nBy the time the debate rages 100 more lives will be lost and thousands will be left in the freezing weather. The priority should be to to stop this .whatever that takes . It is in no one's interest to continue this war.", ">\n\nAll for it. But while we're at it, can we also work on the backlog? Russia's not the first nation to go on unprovoked killing sprees since WW2. Making absolutely sure any tribunal prosecuting those responsible for committing wars of aggression and expansion to increase spheres of influence is seen as utterly impartial to the entire world has to be a priority here, if the desired effect is to prevent more of these behaviours in the future. Which it must, of course. The task is to establish a rule of law based international order again. It won't work, if what really determines whether you'll get trialled is the size of your military and the aggressiveness of your stance. Might as well not bother then, a lot of effort just to end up where we started, at might makes right.", ">\n\nRussia coming with an \"Hague Invasion Act\" bootleg soon^TM" ]

[ "They can offer Nuremberg. It has the premises ready", ">\n\nWould be truly symbolic, not that there would be any chance to extract Putin and his cronies from Russia, while it still possesses nukes...", ">\n\nThere is certainly a chance. There are 147 million people in the Russian federation. They can throw 147 into the court system. A court system which will give those 147 men the opportunity to defend themselves and to face consequences only for actions which those 147 men are actually guilty of and no more. In exchange Russia gets the opportunity to participate in global civilization and share the freedom and prosperity. If they do not take the offer the Russian people have to languish under the despotism of those same 147 criminals. \nI do not know the odds but they are greater than zero.", ">\n\nI don't mean to shit on your idea because it isn't bad, it's just unrealistic. First off, you know those 147 men would consist of critics of Putin and journalists he was already about to assassinate anyway.\nBut the even bigger issue is the assumption that they would want to participate in this current global civilization. Putin banked all his capital on the \"history is written by the victor\" sentiment, not to mention the shared sentiment with China of forcing their perception on other nations with weaponized hypocrisy.\nPutin will never admit that his invasion failed, or that he committed war crimes or give up land. He wants to fight until the rest of the world is fatigued enough to concede and admit defeat to just end this already.\nAnd while it's definitely a condemnable attitude, he wouldn't stick to this if it weren't normalized in the past. The Crimea has been annexed since 2014, yet it was more convenient for everyone to just agree that \"those aren't Russian army men\" even though of course they were.\nSame with China putting pressure on the West to turn a blind eye on its' many questionable practices.\nYou can't just roll over and allow autocrats to do whatever and then expect them to suddenly respect you.", ">\n\nI meant Putin can be overthrown. The new administration rounds up the former leadership. \n\nYou can't just roll over and allow autocrats to do whatever and then expect them to suddenly respect you.\n\nBut a people can overthrow their autocratic regime and then become a respected nation.", ">\n\nHe can, but if you look at the timeline of the Russian Revolution of 1917 as a timeline, that ain't exactly a quick process either", ">\n\nCall me when they have Putin in custody. \nHe gives zero shits if his top people end up going to prison for war crimes. \nAnd there’s no way the war doesn’t end without:\n\nPutin dead \nPutin negotiating a deal where he never is held personally responsible. \n\nIt’s right in the dictator handbook. If you kill enough people, other countries will offer to give you a pass just to get you to stop.", ">\n\nHes only going to use it as propaganda, like \"evil west wants to judge me for defending mother russia\".", ">\n\nWhile I agree he should be held accountable, what are they going to do? Walk up to the Kremlin with 20 cops knock on the door and arrest him? This is nothing", ">\n\nNo. The Russians will do that.", ">\n\nI’m not 100% sure about that he’s put fear and blind loyalty in the right places", ">\n\nFear yes! Loyalty I'm not so sure. Seems like those most loyal have had some tragic and fatal accidents as of late. Price of failure I guess. But I'm more sure that those that remain are doing so more out of complete fear than anything else. Putin has everyone guessing who is truly loyal that everyone is too afraid to band together with the other fearful to remove him.", ">\n\nNah some of them mf act like golom and vlad is the god damn ring", ">\n\nNuremberg would be a great location.", ">\n\nThis is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 72%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nTHE HAGUE - The international community should establish a special tribunal to bring Russian President Vladimir Putin and his regime to trial over their war of aggression against Ukraine, German Foreign Minister Annalena Baerbock said Monday.\nIn a keynote speech following a visit to the International Criminal Court in The Hague, Baerbock emphasized the need to hold the Russian leadership \"Accountable\" for their invasion, which started almost a year ago.\nTo avoid this impasse, Baerbock said she wanted to form, together with partner countries, \"a special tribunal\" to address the crime of aggression against Ukraine that could investigate and try the Russian leadership.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: international^#1 Court^#2 tribunal^#3 crime^#4 Ukraine^#5", ">\n\nI think that's a fantastic idea.", ">\n\n“This aggression will not stand, man”\n-The Dude\n -Baerbock", ">\n\nPutin's a nihilist?", ">\n\nNoooo funny business, Putbowski", ">\n\nWe ba-lieve in nassing…", ">\n\nI think Putin feels he is above all that, he is untouchable. IMHO the only hope to end the war is for Putin to commit suicide or be assassinated.", ">\n\nKill Putin, someone else will be put in place by the oligarchs. You won't change too much.", ">\n\nI don't think that would happen. The oligarchs likely don't have the megalomaniac inclination Putin has. I don't see them wanting to continue down the road of attaching Ukraine.\nAlthough In the long run, I don't see Russia as becoming a \"nice\" country.", ">\n\nBaerbock proposes special tribunal to fuck the Russian raw", ">\n\nAnnalena is tough, if she could, she would drag Putin by his ear to Nürnberg herself.", ">\n\nShe’s one of the few German politicians I’m really fond of. It’s no wonder why the Greens are doing so well in the polls", ">\n\nMy family keeps hating on her because she misspoke like once or twice in front of the press. They literally do not have one real point of attack, no valid criticism, so they have to resort to personal attacks. It's sad. She's actually quite impressive.", ">\n\nPlagiarized her book? Faked her resume? Spouse became a lobbyist? I mean, she joins a long list of German politicians in these, but she’s not exactly unbefleckt.", ">\n\nWhy stop with Russian leadership? Going after everyone involved in Russian military, logistics, and State media disinformation may have serious affects on there mobilization capacity.", ">\n\nQuestion. What actual crime can they charge Russian State Media personalities with?\nThe West cant find the legal means to deal with sources of misinformation in their own countries, I struggle to see how they can deal with sources of misinformation in another country?", ">\n\nPropaganda organs have been prosecuted as accessory for crimes against humanity in the past.\nThis is actually what the Nuremberg trials were about: how can you proescute a country based on laws that were LEGAL in said country? By which authority do you judge?\nThis is how human rights were even established: laws universial to every human, regardless of national laws. Human laws trump national laws, regardless of where or if that country is not even a signatory to any human rights convention (since there weren't any at the end of WW2).\nAnd this is ALSO why most of the EU has \"anti hate-speech\" laws as they are considered a human rights violation. Or at least as \"preparing the way to make human rights violations acceptable\".", ">\n\nI can see him sitting on a stool without handles to hold on to, in a little glascage, alone, and outside all the people he have singlehanded made widows, childless, fatherless, motherless, quietly starring at him while they each poor a little bottle of water into a hole that slowly fill the cage, staring him right in his scared little face without anyone there to help him, no need for a tribunal...", ">\n\nI hate this kind of talk. due process and a permanent, wide open public record of everything he's responsible for is the way. \nthen Germany can reactivate Spandau for him.", ">\n\nIt's very disturbing how some comments on Reddit really read like some sociopathic behavior. It's not the first time someone promotes torture here.", ">\n\n\nman who lived by the sword is proposed to die by the sword\nNooooo, not the heckin' human rightserinooooos", ">\n\nThat's the point, we need to stay better than those we condemned otherwise we're just hypocrites.", ">\n\nIf that was true, the penalty for forcible confinement couldn't be imprisonment.", ">\n\nThis is a BS idea because “we” will never be able to imprison Putin. He will either be overthrown and die by Russian hands or he will die in Russia as president or with cover from some next dictator.\nGermany needs to stop talking about tribunals and start sending tanks to Ukraine already.Focus on how you can help the Ukrainian people now , don’t offer some utopian solution that has no basis in reality.", ">\n\nIMO there’s a nonzero chance a new Russian leader might hand Putin over to get into the West‘s good graces.", ">\n\nWho might that new leader be? Anyone who has the power to force a change is just as culpable. There is no central opposition to unite and lead the masses so any popular revolt will be picked apart bit by bit.", ">\n\nHey, I never said anything about making actual changes!\nHonestly though: No clue. It's an incredibly unlikely scenario anyways.", ">\n\nPutins gonna get fucked baerbock.", ">\n\nSuch measures are probably counterproductive because it will just make it less likely than Putin will give up and instead will fight to the bitter end.\nOf course such charges could also be negotiated away in order to try to get Putin to give up. Basically if he quits he can go into exile.", ">\n\nWhere was this proposal when the Bush administration was invading Iraq?", ">\n\nNo one complains when the Power Rangers destroys the aliens with the Megazord. Good guys get a free pass", ">\n\nIs Germany going to go into Russia and bring these people to justice?\nThe answer is no. This is just (empty) political theatre.", ">\n\nGermany going into Russia is probably the only way Putin could actually still win this war", ">\n\nFinally, someone grew a pair!", ">\n\nIf you didt noticed putin doesn give a fuck", ">\n\nRussia is still one of the Great Powers. Nobody will go to arrest him without taking a nuke to the face.", ">\n\nHuh? It's a regional power at best.", ">\n\nWhat else are there? The US and China are the only Superpowers. The only Great Powers of Europe that remain are because of their militaries including nukes. It is why Germany is no more a great power, and it had no colonies anymore. The UK has its possessions, so do France, and Russia its Near Abroad. Everyone else may have some armies but not nukes enough and no colonies.", ">\n\nOh now there’s consequences? So before now there were no consequences?", ">\n\nNow if only Germany stopped stalling and blocking others from delivering equipment Ukraine needs to make it happen that would be great.", ">\n\nThat'll show him /s", ">\n\nLOL. You let him get away with Crimea. Let's stop play acting.", ">\n\nMust he?...", ">\n\nCriminal ad hoc tribunals are a legal aberration that are prohited by good reason at a national level by most democratic constitutions.\nIt's time to give the International Criminal Court, that was made to prosecute this kind of thing, actual jurisdiction over the world and a way to effectively enforce their judgements.", ">\n\nThey have Jurisdiction in Ukraine, from a Jurisdictional standpoint it isn't a problem really as Ukraine consented to ICC Jurisdiction.", ">\n\nBut not Russia, even if the country came under new management, I have a hard time believing they would allow this.\nCan see someone pulling an Eichmann on them tho.", ">\n\nBetter give tanks to Ukrainians. If Ukraine loose, forget tribunal. Mean time German FM can do something more useful. For example play golf.", ">\n\nThis aggression will not stand, man!", ">\n\nBy the time the debate rages 100 more lives will be lost and thousands will be left in the freezing weather. The priority should be to to stop this .whatever that takes . It is in no one's interest to continue this war.", ">\n\nAll for it. But while we're at it, can we also work on the backlog? Russia's not the first nation to go on unprovoked killing sprees since WW2. Making absolutely sure any tribunal prosecuting those responsible for committing wars of aggression and expansion to increase spheres of influence is seen as utterly impartial to the entire world has to be a priority here, if the desired effect is to prevent more of these behaviours in the future. Which it must, of course. The task is to establish a rule of law based international order again. It won't work, if what really determines whether you'll get trialled is the size of your military and the aggressiveness of your stance. Might as well not bother then, a lot of effort just to end up where we started, at might makes right.", ">\n\nRussia coming with an \"Hague Invasion Act\" bootleg soon^TM", ">\n\nOmg she is stunningly beautiful" ]

[ "They can offer Nuremberg. It has the premises ready", ">\n\nWould be truly symbolic, not that there would be any chance to extract Putin and his cronies from Russia, while it still possesses nukes...", ">\n\nThere is certainly a chance. There are 147 million people in the Russian federation. They can throw 147 into the court system. A court system which will give those 147 men the opportunity to defend themselves and to face consequences only for actions which those 147 men are actually guilty of and no more. In exchange Russia gets the opportunity to participate in global civilization and share the freedom and prosperity. If they do not take the offer the Russian people have to languish under the despotism of those same 147 criminals. \nI do not know the odds but they are greater than zero.", ">\n\nI don't mean to shit on your idea because it isn't bad, it's just unrealistic. First off, you know those 147 men would consist of critics of Putin and journalists he was already about to assassinate anyway.\nBut the even bigger issue is the assumption that they would want to participate in this current global civilization. Putin banked all his capital on the \"history is written by the victor\" sentiment, not to mention the shared sentiment with China of forcing their perception on other nations with weaponized hypocrisy.\nPutin will never admit that his invasion failed, or that he committed war crimes or give up land. He wants to fight until the rest of the world is fatigued enough to concede and admit defeat to just end this already.\nAnd while it's definitely a condemnable attitude, he wouldn't stick to this if it weren't normalized in the past. The Crimea has been annexed since 2014, yet it was more convenient for everyone to just agree that \"those aren't Russian army men\" even though of course they were.\nSame with China putting pressure on the West to turn a blind eye on its' many questionable practices.\nYou can't just roll over and allow autocrats to do whatever and then expect them to suddenly respect you.", ">\n\nI meant Putin can be overthrown. The new administration rounds up the former leadership. \n\nYou can't just roll over and allow autocrats to do whatever and then expect them to suddenly respect you.\n\nBut a people can overthrow their autocratic regime and then become a respected nation.", ">\n\nHe can, but if you look at the timeline of the Russian Revolution of 1917 as a timeline, that ain't exactly a quick process either", ">\n\nCall me when they have Putin in custody. \nHe gives zero shits if his top people end up going to prison for war crimes. \nAnd there’s no way the war doesn’t end without:\n\nPutin dead \nPutin negotiating a deal where he never is held personally responsible. \n\nIt’s right in the dictator handbook. If you kill enough people, other countries will offer to give you a pass just to get you to stop.", ">\n\nHes only going to use it as propaganda, like \"evil west wants to judge me for defending mother russia\".", ">\n\nWhile I agree he should be held accountable, what are they going to do? Walk up to the Kremlin with 20 cops knock on the door and arrest him? This is nothing", ">\n\nNo. The Russians will do that.", ">\n\nI’m not 100% sure about that he’s put fear and blind loyalty in the right places", ">\n\nFear yes! Loyalty I'm not so sure. Seems like those most loyal have had some tragic and fatal accidents as of late. Price of failure I guess. But I'm more sure that those that remain are doing so more out of complete fear than anything else. Putin has everyone guessing who is truly loyal that everyone is too afraid to band together with the other fearful to remove him.", ">\n\nNah some of them mf act like golom and vlad is the god damn ring", ">\n\nNuremberg would be a great location.", ">\n\nThis is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 72%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nTHE HAGUE - The international community should establish a special tribunal to bring Russian President Vladimir Putin and his regime to trial over their war of aggression against Ukraine, German Foreign Minister Annalena Baerbock said Monday.\nIn a keynote speech following a visit to the International Criminal Court in The Hague, Baerbock emphasized the need to hold the Russian leadership \"Accountable\" for their invasion, which started almost a year ago.\nTo avoid this impasse, Baerbock said she wanted to form, together with partner countries, \"a special tribunal\" to address the crime of aggression against Ukraine that could investigate and try the Russian leadership.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: international^#1 Court^#2 tribunal^#3 crime^#4 Ukraine^#5", ">\n\nI think that's a fantastic idea.", ">\n\n“This aggression will not stand, man”\n-The Dude\n -Baerbock", ">\n\nPutin's a nihilist?", ">\n\nNoooo funny business, Putbowski", ">\n\nWe ba-lieve in nassing…", ">\n\nI think Putin feels he is above all that, he is untouchable. IMHO the only hope to end the war is for Putin to commit suicide or be assassinated.", ">\n\nKill Putin, someone else will be put in place by the oligarchs. You won't change too much.", ">\n\nI don't think that would happen. The oligarchs likely don't have the megalomaniac inclination Putin has. I don't see them wanting to continue down the road of attaching Ukraine.\nAlthough In the long run, I don't see Russia as becoming a \"nice\" country.", ">\n\nBaerbock proposes special tribunal to fuck the Russian raw", ">\n\nAnnalena is tough, if she could, she would drag Putin by his ear to Nürnberg herself.", ">\n\nShe’s one of the few German politicians I’m really fond of. It’s no wonder why the Greens are doing so well in the polls", ">\n\nMy family keeps hating on her because she misspoke like once or twice in front of the press. They literally do not have one real point of attack, no valid criticism, so they have to resort to personal attacks. It's sad. She's actually quite impressive.", ">\n\nPlagiarized her book? Faked her resume? Spouse became a lobbyist? I mean, she joins a long list of German politicians in these, but she’s not exactly unbefleckt.", ">\n\nWhy stop with Russian leadership? Going after everyone involved in Russian military, logistics, and State media disinformation may have serious affects on there mobilization capacity.", ">\n\nQuestion. What actual crime can they charge Russian State Media personalities with?\nThe West cant find the legal means to deal with sources of misinformation in their own countries, I struggle to see how they can deal with sources of misinformation in another country?", ">\n\nPropaganda organs have been prosecuted as accessory for crimes against humanity in the past.\nThis is actually what the Nuremberg trials were about: how can you proescute a country based on laws that were LEGAL in said country? By which authority do you judge?\nThis is how human rights were even established: laws universial to every human, regardless of national laws. Human laws trump national laws, regardless of where or if that country is not even a signatory to any human rights convention (since there weren't any at the end of WW2).\nAnd this is ALSO why most of the EU has \"anti hate-speech\" laws as they are considered a human rights violation. Or at least as \"preparing the way to make human rights violations acceptable\".", ">\n\nI can see him sitting on a stool without handles to hold on to, in a little glascage, alone, and outside all the people he have singlehanded made widows, childless, fatherless, motherless, quietly starring at him while they each poor a little bottle of water into a hole that slowly fill the cage, staring him right in his scared little face without anyone there to help him, no need for a tribunal...", ">\n\nI hate this kind of talk. due process and a permanent, wide open public record of everything he's responsible for is the way. \nthen Germany can reactivate Spandau for him.", ">\n\nIt's very disturbing how some comments on Reddit really read like some sociopathic behavior. It's not the first time someone promotes torture here.", ">\n\n\nman who lived by the sword is proposed to die by the sword\nNooooo, not the heckin' human rightserinooooos", ">\n\nThat's the point, we need to stay better than those we condemned otherwise we're just hypocrites.", ">\n\nIf that was true, the penalty for forcible confinement couldn't be imprisonment.", ">\n\nThis is a BS idea because “we” will never be able to imprison Putin. He will either be overthrown and die by Russian hands or he will die in Russia as president or with cover from some next dictator.\nGermany needs to stop talking about tribunals and start sending tanks to Ukraine already.Focus on how you can help the Ukrainian people now , don’t offer some utopian solution that has no basis in reality.", ">\n\nIMO there’s a nonzero chance a new Russian leader might hand Putin over to get into the West‘s good graces.", ">\n\nWho might that new leader be? Anyone who has the power to force a change is just as culpable. There is no central opposition to unite and lead the masses so any popular revolt will be picked apart bit by bit.", ">\n\nHey, I never said anything about making actual changes!\nHonestly though: No clue. It's an incredibly unlikely scenario anyways.", ">\n\nPutins gonna get fucked baerbock.", ">\n\nSuch measures are probably counterproductive because it will just make it less likely than Putin will give up and instead will fight to the bitter end.\nOf course such charges could also be negotiated away in order to try to get Putin to give up. Basically if he quits he can go into exile.", ">\n\nWhere was this proposal when the Bush administration was invading Iraq?", ">\n\nNo one complains when the Power Rangers destroys the aliens with the Megazord. Good guys get a free pass", ">\n\nIs Germany going to go into Russia and bring these people to justice?\nThe answer is no. This is just (empty) political theatre.", ">\n\nGermany going into Russia is probably the only way Putin could actually still win this war", ">\n\nFinally, someone grew a pair!", ">\n\nIf you didt noticed putin doesn give a fuck", ">\n\nRussia is still one of the Great Powers. Nobody will go to arrest him without taking a nuke to the face.", ">\n\nHuh? It's a regional power at best.", ">\n\nWhat else are there? The US and China are the only Superpowers. The only Great Powers of Europe that remain are because of their militaries including nukes. It is why Germany is no more a great power, and it had no colonies anymore. The UK has its possessions, so do France, and Russia its Near Abroad. Everyone else may have some armies but not nukes enough and no colonies.", ">\n\nOh now there’s consequences? So before now there were no consequences?", ">\n\nNow if only Germany stopped stalling and blocking others from delivering equipment Ukraine needs to make it happen that would be great.", ">\n\nThat'll show him /s", ">\n\nLOL. You let him get away with Crimea. Let's stop play acting.", ">\n\nMust he?...", ">\n\nCriminal ad hoc tribunals are a legal aberration that are prohited by good reason at a national level by most democratic constitutions.\nIt's time to give the International Criminal Court, that was made to prosecute this kind of thing, actual jurisdiction over the world and a way to effectively enforce their judgements.", ">\n\nThey have Jurisdiction in Ukraine, from a Jurisdictional standpoint it isn't a problem really as Ukraine consented to ICC Jurisdiction.", ">\n\nBut not Russia, even if the country came under new management, I have a hard time believing they would allow this.\nCan see someone pulling an Eichmann on them tho.", ">\n\nBetter give tanks to Ukrainians. If Ukraine loose, forget tribunal. Mean time German FM can do something more useful. For example play golf.", ">\n\nThis aggression will not stand, man!", ">\n\nBy the time the debate rages 100 more lives will be lost and thousands will be left in the freezing weather. The priority should be to to stop this .whatever that takes . It is in no one's interest to continue this war.", ">\n\nAll for it. But while we're at it, can we also work on the backlog? Russia's not the first nation to go on unprovoked killing sprees since WW2. Making absolutely sure any tribunal prosecuting those responsible for committing wars of aggression and expansion to increase spheres of influence is seen as utterly impartial to the entire world has to be a priority here, if the desired effect is to prevent more of these behaviours in the future. Which it must, of course. The task is to establish a rule of law based international order again. It won't work, if what really determines whether you'll get trialled is the size of your military and the aggressiveness of your stance. Might as well not bother then, a lot of effort just to end up where we started, at might makes right.", ">\n\nRussia coming with an \"Hague Invasion Act\" bootleg soon^TM", ">\n\nOmg she is stunningly beautiful", ">\n\nThere should be no way this war ends and Russia isn’t completely isolated from normal world society until change occurs, or the current leadership is prosecuted. Meaning for me anyway, that cannot leave Russian territory without the threat of being arrested in nearly every country.\nUnfortunately the Russian people don’t care enough now to remove Putin and his subordinates from power." ]

[ "They can offer Nuremberg. It has the premises ready", ">\n\nWould be truly symbolic, not that there would be any chance to extract Putin and his cronies from Russia, while it still possesses nukes...", ">\n\nThere is certainly a chance. There are 147 million people in the Russian federation. They can throw 147 into the court system. A court system which will give those 147 men the opportunity to defend themselves and to face consequences only for actions which those 147 men are actually guilty of and no more. In exchange Russia gets the opportunity to participate in global civilization and share the freedom and prosperity. If they do not take the offer the Russian people have to languish under the despotism of those same 147 criminals. \nI do not know the odds but they are greater than zero.", ">\n\nI don't mean to shit on your idea because it isn't bad, it's just unrealistic. First off, you know those 147 men would consist of critics of Putin and journalists he was already about to assassinate anyway.\nBut the even bigger issue is the assumption that they would want to participate in this current global civilization. Putin banked all his capital on the \"history is written by the victor\" sentiment, not to mention the shared sentiment with China of forcing their perception on other nations with weaponized hypocrisy.\nPutin will never admit that his invasion failed, or that he committed war crimes or give up land. He wants to fight until the rest of the world is fatigued enough to concede and admit defeat to just end this already.\nAnd while it's definitely a condemnable attitude, he wouldn't stick to this if it weren't normalized in the past. The Crimea has been annexed since 2014, yet it was more convenient for everyone to just agree that \"those aren't Russian army men\" even though of course they were.\nSame with China putting pressure on the West to turn a blind eye on its' many questionable practices.\nYou can't just roll over and allow autocrats to do whatever and then expect them to suddenly respect you.", ">\n\nI meant Putin can be overthrown. The new administration rounds up the former leadership. \n\nYou can't just roll over and allow autocrats to do whatever and then expect them to suddenly respect you.\n\nBut a people can overthrow their autocratic regime and then become a respected nation.", ">\n\nHe can, but if you look at the timeline of the Russian Revolution of 1917 as a timeline, that ain't exactly a quick process either", ">\n\nCall me when they have Putin in custody. \nHe gives zero shits if his top people end up going to prison for war crimes. \nAnd there’s no way the war doesn’t end without:\n\nPutin dead \nPutin negotiating a deal where he never is held personally responsible. \n\nIt’s right in the dictator handbook. If you kill enough people, other countries will offer to give you a pass just to get you to stop.", ">\n\nHes only going to use it as propaganda, like \"evil west wants to judge me for defending mother russia\".", ">\n\nWhile I agree he should be held accountable, what are they going to do? Walk up to the Kremlin with 20 cops knock on the door and arrest him? This is nothing", ">\n\nNo. The Russians will do that.", ">\n\nI’m not 100% sure about that he’s put fear and blind loyalty in the right places", ">\n\nFear yes! Loyalty I'm not so sure. Seems like those most loyal have had some tragic and fatal accidents as of late. Price of failure I guess. But I'm more sure that those that remain are doing so more out of complete fear than anything else. Putin has everyone guessing who is truly loyal that everyone is too afraid to band together with the other fearful to remove him.", ">\n\nNah some of them mf act like golom and vlad is the god damn ring", ">\n\nNuremberg would be a great location.", ">\n\nThis is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 72%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nTHE HAGUE - The international community should establish a special tribunal to bring Russian President Vladimir Putin and his regime to trial over their war of aggression against Ukraine, German Foreign Minister Annalena Baerbock said Monday.\nIn a keynote speech following a visit to the International Criminal Court in The Hague, Baerbock emphasized the need to hold the Russian leadership \"Accountable\" for their invasion, which started almost a year ago.\nTo avoid this impasse, Baerbock said she wanted to form, together with partner countries, \"a special tribunal\" to address the crime of aggression against Ukraine that could investigate and try the Russian leadership.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: international^#1 Court^#2 tribunal^#3 crime^#4 Ukraine^#5", ">\n\nI think that's a fantastic idea.", ">\n\n“This aggression will not stand, man”\n-The Dude\n -Baerbock", ">\n\nPutin's a nihilist?", ">\n\nNoooo funny business, Putbowski", ">\n\nWe ba-lieve in nassing…", ">\n\nI think Putin feels he is above all that, he is untouchable. IMHO the only hope to end the war is for Putin to commit suicide or be assassinated.", ">\n\nKill Putin, someone else will be put in place by the oligarchs. You won't change too much.", ">\n\nI don't think that would happen. The oligarchs likely don't have the megalomaniac inclination Putin has. I don't see them wanting to continue down the road of attaching Ukraine.\nAlthough In the long run, I don't see Russia as becoming a \"nice\" country.", ">\n\nBaerbock proposes special tribunal to fuck the Russian raw", ">\n\nAnnalena is tough, if she could, she would drag Putin by his ear to Nürnberg herself.", ">\n\nShe’s one of the few German politicians I’m really fond of. It’s no wonder why the Greens are doing so well in the polls", ">\n\nMy family keeps hating on her because she misspoke like once or twice in front of the press. They literally do not have one real point of attack, no valid criticism, so they have to resort to personal attacks. It's sad. She's actually quite impressive.", ">\n\nPlagiarized her book? Faked her resume? Spouse became a lobbyist? I mean, she joins a long list of German politicians in these, but she’s not exactly unbefleckt.", ">\n\nWhy stop with Russian leadership? Going after everyone involved in Russian military, logistics, and State media disinformation may have serious affects on there mobilization capacity.", ">\n\nQuestion. What actual crime can they charge Russian State Media personalities with?\nThe West cant find the legal means to deal with sources of misinformation in their own countries, I struggle to see how they can deal with sources of misinformation in another country?", ">\n\nPropaganda organs have been prosecuted as accessory for crimes against humanity in the past.\nThis is actually what the Nuremberg trials were about: how can you proescute a country based on laws that were LEGAL in said country? By which authority do you judge?\nThis is how human rights were even established: laws universial to every human, regardless of national laws. Human laws trump national laws, regardless of where or if that country is not even a signatory to any human rights convention (since there weren't any at the end of WW2).\nAnd this is ALSO why most of the EU has \"anti hate-speech\" laws as they are considered a human rights violation. Or at least as \"preparing the way to make human rights violations acceptable\".", ">\n\nI can see him sitting on a stool without handles to hold on to, in a little glascage, alone, and outside all the people he have singlehanded made widows, childless, fatherless, motherless, quietly starring at him while they each poor a little bottle of water into a hole that slowly fill the cage, staring him right in his scared little face without anyone there to help him, no need for a tribunal...", ">\n\nI hate this kind of talk. due process and a permanent, wide open public record of everything he's responsible for is the way. \nthen Germany can reactivate Spandau for him.", ">\n\nIt's very disturbing how some comments on Reddit really read like some sociopathic behavior. It's not the first time someone promotes torture here.", ">\n\n\nman who lived by the sword is proposed to die by the sword\nNooooo, not the heckin' human rightserinooooos", ">\n\nThat's the point, we need to stay better than those we condemned otherwise we're just hypocrites.", ">\n\nIf that was true, the penalty for forcible confinement couldn't be imprisonment.", ">\n\nThis is a BS idea because “we” will never be able to imprison Putin. He will either be overthrown and die by Russian hands or he will die in Russia as president or with cover from some next dictator.\nGermany needs to stop talking about tribunals and start sending tanks to Ukraine already.Focus on how you can help the Ukrainian people now , don’t offer some utopian solution that has no basis in reality.", ">\n\nIMO there’s a nonzero chance a new Russian leader might hand Putin over to get into the West‘s good graces.", ">\n\nWho might that new leader be? Anyone who has the power to force a change is just as culpable. There is no central opposition to unite and lead the masses so any popular revolt will be picked apart bit by bit.", ">\n\nHey, I never said anything about making actual changes!\nHonestly though: No clue. It's an incredibly unlikely scenario anyways.", ">\n\nPutins gonna get fucked baerbock.", ">\n\nSuch measures are probably counterproductive because it will just make it less likely than Putin will give up and instead will fight to the bitter end.\nOf course such charges could also be negotiated away in order to try to get Putin to give up. Basically if he quits he can go into exile.", ">\n\nWhere was this proposal when the Bush administration was invading Iraq?", ">\n\nNo one complains when the Power Rangers destroys the aliens with the Megazord. Good guys get a free pass", ">\n\nIs Germany going to go into Russia and bring these people to justice?\nThe answer is no. This is just (empty) political theatre.", ">\n\nGermany going into Russia is probably the only way Putin could actually still win this war", ">\n\nFinally, someone grew a pair!", ">\n\nIf you didt noticed putin doesn give a fuck", ">\n\nRussia is still one of the Great Powers. Nobody will go to arrest him without taking a nuke to the face.", ">\n\nHuh? It's a regional power at best.", ">\n\nWhat else are there? The US and China are the only Superpowers. The only Great Powers of Europe that remain are because of their militaries including nukes. It is why Germany is no more a great power, and it had no colonies anymore. The UK has its possessions, so do France, and Russia its Near Abroad. Everyone else may have some armies but not nukes enough and no colonies.", ">\n\nOh now there’s consequences? So before now there were no consequences?", ">\n\nNow if only Germany stopped stalling and blocking others from delivering equipment Ukraine needs to make it happen that would be great.", ">\n\nThat'll show him /s", ">\n\nLOL. You let him get away with Crimea. Let's stop play acting.", ">\n\nMust he?...", ">\n\nCriminal ad hoc tribunals are a legal aberration that are prohited by good reason at a national level by most democratic constitutions.\nIt's time to give the International Criminal Court, that was made to prosecute this kind of thing, actual jurisdiction over the world and a way to effectively enforce their judgements.", ">\n\nThey have Jurisdiction in Ukraine, from a Jurisdictional standpoint it isn't a problem really as Ukraine consented to ICC Jurisdiction.", ">\n\nBut not Russia, even if the country came under new management, I have a hard time believing they would allow this.\nCan see someone pulling an Eichmann on them tho.", ">\n\nBetter give tanks to Ukrainians. If Ukraine loose, forget tribunal. Mean time German FM can do something more useful. For example play golf.", ">\n\nThis aggression will not stand, man!", ">\n\nBy the time the debate rages 100 more lives will be lost and thousands will be left in the freezing weather. The priority should be to to stop this .whatever that takes . It is in no one's interest to continue this war.", ">\n\nAll for it. But while we're at it, can we also work on the backlog? Russia's not the first nation to go on unprovoked killing sprees since WW2. Making absolutely sure any tribunal prosecuting those responsible for committing wars of aggression and expansion to increase spheres of influence is seen as utterly impartial to the entire world has to be a priority here, if the desired effect is to prevent more of these behaviours in the future. Which it must, of course. The task is to establish a rule of law based international order again. It won't work, if what really determines whether you'll get trialled is the size of your military and the aggressiveness of your stance. Might as well not bother then, a lot of effort just to end up where we started, at might makes right.", ">\n\nRussia coming with an \"Hague Invasion Act\" bootleg soon^TM", ">\n\nOmg she is stunningly beautiful", ">\n\nThere should be no way this war ends and Russia isn’t completely isolated from normal world society until change occurs, or the current leadership is prosecuted. Meaning for me anyway, that cannot leave Russian territory without the threat of being arrested in nearly every country.\nUnfortunately the Russian people don’t care enough now to remove Putin and his subordinates from power.", ">\n\nGood!!!" ]

[ "They can offer Nuremberg. It has the premises ready", ">\n\nWould be truly symbolic, not that there would be any chance to extract Putin and his cronies from Russia, while it still possesses nukes...", ">\n\nThere is certainly a chance. There are 147 million people in the Russian federation. They can throw 147 into the court system. A court system which will give those 147 men the opportunity to defend themselves and to face consequences only for actions which those 147 men are actually guilty of and no more. In exchange Russia gets the opportunity to participate in global civilization and share the freedom and prosperity. If they do not take the offer the Russian people have to languish under the despotism of those same 147 criminals. \nI do not know the odds but they are greater than zero.", ">\n\nI don't mean to shit on your idea because it isn't bad, it's just unrealistic. First off, you know those 147 men would consist of critics of Putin and journalists he was already about to assassinate anyway.\nBut the even bigger issue is the assumption that they would want to participate in this current global civilization. Putin banked all his capital on the \"history is written by the victor\" sentiment, not to mention the shared sentiment with China of forcing their perception on other nations with weaponized hypocrisy.\nPutin will never admit that his invasion failed, or that he committed war crimes or give up land. He wants to fight until the rest of the world is fatigued enough to concede and admit defeat to just end this already.\nAnd while it's definitely a condemnable attitude, he wouldn't stick to this if it weren't normalized in the past. The Crimea has been annexed since 2014, yet it was more convenient for everyone to just agree that \"those aren't Russian army men\" even though of course they were.\nSame with China putting pressure on the West to turn a blind eye on its' many questionable practices.\nYou can't just roll over and allow autocrats to do whatever and then expect them to suddenly respect you.", ">\n\nI meant Putin can be overthrown. The new administration rounds up the former leadership. \n\nYou can't just roll over and allow autocrats to do whatever and then expect them to suddenly respect you.\n\nBut a people can overthrow their autocratic regime and then become a respected nation.", ">\n\nHe can, but if you look at the timeline of the Russian Revolution of 1917 as a timeline, that ain't exactly a quick process either", ">\n\nCall me when they have Putin in custody. \nHe gives zero shits if his top people end up going to prison for war crimes. \nAnd there’s no way the war doesn’t end without:\n\nPutin dead \nPutin negotiating a deal where he never is held personally responsible. \n\nIt’s right in the dictator handbook. If you kill enough people, other countries will offer to give you a pass just to get you to stop.", ">\n\nHes only going to use it as propaganda, like \"evil west wants to judge me for defending mother russia\".", ">\n\nWhile I agree he should be held accountable, what are they going to do? Walk up to the Kremlin with 20 cops knock on the door and arrest him? This is nothing", ">\n\nNo. The Russians will do that.", ">\n\nI’m not 100% sure about that he’s put fear and blind loyalty in the right places", ">\n\nFear yes! Loyalty I'm not so sure. Seems like those most loyal have had some tragic and fatal accidents as of late. Price of failure I guess. But I'm more sure that those that remain are doing so more out of complete fear than anything else. Putin has everyone guessing who is truly loyal that everyone is too afraid to band together with the other fearful to remove him.", ">\n\nNah some of them mf act like golom and vlad is the god damn ring", ">\n\nNuremberg would be a great location.", ">\n\nThis is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 72%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nTHE HAGUE - The international community should establish a special tribunal to bring Russian President Vladimir Putin and his regime to trial over their war of aggression against Ukraine, German Foreign Minister Annalena Baerbock said Monday.\nIn a keynote speech following a visit to the International Criminal Court in The Hague, Baerbock emphasized the need to hold the Russian leadership \"Accountable\" for their invasion, which started almost a year ago.\nTo avoid this impasse, Baerbock said she wanted to form, together with partner countries, \"a special tribunal\" to address the crime of aggression against Ukraine that could investigate and try the Russian leadership.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: international^#1 Court^#2 tribunal^#3 crime^#4 Ukraine^#5", ">\n\nI think that's a fantastic idea.", ">\n\n“This aggression will not stand, man”\n-The Dude\n -Baerbock", ">\n\nPutin's a nihilist?", ">\n\nNoooo funny business, Putbowski", ">\n\nWe ba-lieve in nassing…", ">\n\nI think Putin feels he is above all that, he is untouchable. IMHO the only hope to end the war is for Putin to commit suicide or be assassinated.", ">\n\nKill Putin, someone else will be put in place by the oligarchs. You won't change too much.", ">\n\nI don't think that would happen. The oligarchs likely don't have the megalomaniac inclination Putin has. I don't see them wanting to continue down the road of attaching Ukraine.\nAlthough In the long run, I don't see Russia as becoming a \"nice\" country.", ">\n\nBaerbock proposes special tribunal to fuck the Russian raw", ">\n\nAnnalena is tough, if she could, she would drag Putin by his ear to Nürnberg herself.", ">\n\nShe’s one of the few German politicians I’m really fond of. It’s no wonder why the Greens are doing so well in the polls", ">\n\nMy family keeps hating on her because she misspoke like once or twice in front of the press. They literally do not have one real point of attack, no valid criticism, so they have to resort to personal attacks. It's sad. She's actually quite impressive.", ">\n\nPlagiarized her book? Faked her resume? Spouse became a lobbyist? I mean, she joins a long list of German politicians in these, but she’s not exactly unbefleckt.", ">\n\nWhy stop with Russian leadership? Going after everyone involved in Russian military, logistics, and State media disinformation may have serious affects on there mobilization capacity.", ">\n\nQuestion. What actual crime can they charge Russian State Media personalities with?\nThe West cant find the legal means to deal with sources of misinformation in their own countries, I struggle to see how they can deal with sources of misinformation in another country?", ">\n\nPropaganda organs have been prosecuted as accessory for crimes against humanity in the past.\nThis is actually what the Nuremberg trials were about: how can you proescute a country based on laws that were LEGAL in said country? By which authority do you judge?\nThis is how human rights were even established: laws universial to every human, regardless of national laws. Human laws trump national laws, regardless of where or if that country is not even a signatory to any human rights convention (since there weren't any at the end of WW2).\nAnd this is ALSO why most of the EU has \"anti hate-speech\" laws as they are considered a human rights violation. Or at least as \"preparing the way to make human rights violations acceptable\".", ">\n\nI can see him sitting on a stool without handles to hold on to, in a little glascage, alone, and outside all the people he have singlehanded made widows, childless, fatherless, motherless, quietly starring at him while they each poor a little bottle of water into a hole that slowly fill the cage, staring him right in his scared little face without anyone there to help him, no need for a tribunal...", ">\n\nI hate this kind of talk. due process and a permanent, wide open public record of everything he's responsible for is the way. \nthen Germany can reactivate Spandau for him.", ">\n\nIt's very disturbing how some comments on Reddit really read like some sociopathic behavior. It's not the first time someone promotes torture here.", ">\n\n\nman who lived by the sword is proposed to die by the sword\nNooooo, not the heckin' human rightserinooooos", ">\n\nThat's the point, we need to stay better than those we condemned otherwise we're just hypocrites.", ">\n\nIf that was true, the penalty for forcible confinement couldn't be imprisonment.", ">\n\nThis is a BS idea because “we” will never be able to imprison Putin. He will either be overthrown and die by Russian hands or he will die in Russia as president or with cover from some next dictator.\nGermany needs to stop talking about tribunals and start sending tanks to Ukraine already.Focus on how you can help the Ukrainian people now , don’t offer some utopian solution that has no basis in reality.", ">\n\nIMO there’s a nonzero chance a new Russian leader might hand Putin over to get into the West‘s good graces.", ">\n\nWho might that new leader be? Anyone who has the power to force a change is just as culpable. There is no central opposition to unite and lead the masses so any popular revolt will be picked apart bit by bit.", ">\n\nHey, I never said anything about making actual changes!\nHonestly though: No clue. It's an incredibly unlikely scenario anyways.", ">\n\nPutins gonna get fucked baerbock.", ">\n\nSuch measures are probably counterproductive because it will just make it less likely than Putin will give up and instead will fight to the bitter end.\nOf course such charges could also be negotiated away in order to try to get Putin to give up. Basically if he quits he can go into exile.", ">\n\nWhere was this proposal when the Bush administration was invading Iraq?", ">\n\nNo one complains when the Power Rangers destroys the aliens with the Megazord. Good guys get a free pass", ">\n\nIs Germany going to go into Russia and bring these people to justice?\nThe answer is no. This is just (empty) political theatre.", ">\n\nGermany going into Russia is probably the only way Putin could actually still win this war", ">\n\nFinally, someone grew a pair!", ">\n\nIf you didt noticed putin doesn give a fuck", ">\n\nRussia is still one of the Great Powers. Nobody will go to arrest him without taking a nuke to the face.", ">\n\nHuh? It's a regional power at best.", ">\n\nWhat else are there? The US and China are the only Superpowers. The only Great Powers of Europe that remain are because of their militaries including nukes. It is why Germany is no more a great power, and it had no colonies anymore. The UK has its possessions, so do France, and Russia its Near Abroad. Everyone else may have some armies but not nukes enough and no colonies.", ">\n\nOh now there’s consequences? So before now there were no consequences?", ">\n\nNow if only Germany stopped stalling and blocking others from delivering equipment Ukraine needs to make it happen that would be great.", ">\n\nThat'll show him /s", ">\n\nLOL. You let him get away with Crimea. Let's stop play acting.", ">\n\nMust he?...", ">\n\nCriminal ad hoc tribunals are a legal aberration that are prohited by good reason at a national level by most democratic constitutions.\nIt's time to give the International Criminal Court, that was made to prosecute this kind of thing, actual jurisdiction over the world and a way to effectively enforce their judgements.", ">\n\nThey have Jurisdiction in Ukraine, from a Jurisdictional standpoint it isn't a problem really as Ukraine consented to ICC Jurisdiction.", ">\n\nBut not Russia, even if the country came under new management, I have a hard time believing they would allow this.\nCan see someone pulling an Eichmann on them tho.", ">\n\nBetter give tanks to Ukrainians. If Ukraine loose, forget tribunal. Mean time German FM can do something more useful. For example play golf.", ">\n\nThis aggression will not stand, man!", ">\n\nBy the time the debate rages 100 more lives will be lost and thousands will be left in the freezing weather. The priority should be to to stop this .whatever that takes . It is in no one's interest to continue this war.", ">\n\nAll for it. But while we're at it, can we also work on the backlog? Russia's not the first nation to go on unprovoked killing sprees since WW2. Making absolutely sure any tribunal prosecuting those responsible for committing wars of aggression and expansion to increase spheres of influence is seen as utterly impartial to the entire world has to be a priority here, if the desired effect is to prevent more of these behaviours in the future. Which it must, of course. The task is to establish a rule of law based international order again. It won't work, if what really determines whether you'll get trialled is the size of your military and the aggressiveness of your stance. Might as well not bother then, a lot of effort just to end up where we started, at might makes right.", ">\n\nRussia coming with an \"Hague Invasion Act\" bootleg soon^TM", ">\n\nOmg she is stunningly beautiful", ">\n\nThere should be no way this war ends and Russia isn’t completely isolated from normal world society until change occurs, or the current leadership is prosecuted. Meaning for me anyway, that cannot leave Russian territory without the threat of being arrested in nearly every country.\nUnfortunately the Russian people don’t care enough now to remove Putin and his subordinates from power.", ">\n\nGood!!!", ">\n\nThis is all trump's fault. He's the most recent and successful LIAR there's been. He lied his way through the presidency, treated putin like a god, made fake news and disinformation mainstream and almost stole an election he was blown away in. \nputin watched him and realized he can totally bs his way through anything, even more than he already was.\nnow it's happened in Brazil also. thanks trump for studying hitler so closely.\nOh and Mark Zuckerberg. Social Media is going to destroy society person by person if we don't curb it and govern it. It's like screaming fire in a movie theater with 100 million in the audience." ]

[ "They can offer Nuremberg. It has the premises ready", ">\n\nWould be truly symbolic, not that there would be any chance to extract Putin and his cronies from Russia, while it still possesses nukes...", ">\n\nThere is certainly a chance. There are 147 million people in the Russian federation. They can throw 147 into the court system. A court system which will give those 147 men the opportunity to defend themselves and to face consequences only for actions which those 147 men are actually guilty of and no more. In exchange Russia gets the opportunity to participate in global civilization and share the freedom and prosperity. If they do not take the offer the Russian people have to languish under the despotism of those same 147 criminals. \nI do not know the odds but they are greater than zero.", ">\n\nI don't mean to shit on your idea because it isn't bad, it's just unrealistic. First off, you know those 147 men would consist of critics of Putin and journalists he was already about to assassinate anyway.\nBut the even bigger issue is the assumption that they would want to participate in this current global civilization. Putin banked all his capital on the \"history is written by the victor\" sentiment, not to mention the shared sentiment with China of forcing their perception on other nations with weaponized hypocrisy.\nPutin will never admit that his invasion failed, or that he committed war crimes or give up land. He wants to fight until the rest of the world is fatigued enough to concede and admit defeat to just end this already.\nAnd while it's definitely a condemnable attitude, he wouldn't stick to this if it weren't normalized in the past. The Crimea has been annexed since 2014, yet it was more convenient for everyone to just agree that \"those aren't Russian army men\" even though of course they were.\nSame with China putting pressure on the West to turn a blind eye on its' many questionable practices.\nYou can't just roll over and allow autocrats to do whatever and then expect them to suddenly respect you.", ">\n\nI meant Putin can be overthrown. The new administration rounds up the former leadership. \n\nYou can't just roll over and allow autocrats to do whatever and then expect them to suddenly respect you.\n\nBut a people can overthrow their autocratic regime and then become a respected nation.", ">\n\nHe can, but if you look at the timeline of the Russian Revolution of 1917 as a timeline, that ain't exactly a quick process either", ">\n\nCall me when they have Putin in custody. \nHe gives zero shits if his top people end up going to prison for war crimes. \nAnd there’s no way the war doesn’t end without:\n\nPutin dead \nPutin negotiating a deal where he never is held personally responsible. \n\nIt’s right in the dictator handbook. If you kill enough people, other countries will offer to give you a pass just to get you to stop.", ">\n\nHes only going to use it as propaganda, like \"evil west wants to judge me for defending mother russia\".", ">\n\nWhile I agree he should be held accountable, what are they going to do? Walk up to the Kremlin with 20 cops knock on the door and arrest him? This is nothing", ">\n\nNo. The Russians will do that.", ">\n\nI’m not 100% sure about that he’s put fear and blind loyalty in the right places", ">\n\nFear yes! Loyalty I'm not so sure. Seems like those most loyal have had some tragic and fatal accidents as of late. Price of failure I guess. But I'm more sure that those that remain are doing so more out of complete fear than anything else. Putin has everyone guessing who is truly loyal that everyone is too afraid to band together with the other fearful to remove him.", ">\n\nNah some of them mf act like golom and vlad is the god damn ring", ">\n\nNuremberg would be a great location.", ">\n\nThis is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 72%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nTHE HAGUE - The international community should establish a special tribunal to bring Russian President Vladimir Putin and his regime to trial over their war of aggression against Ukraine, German Foreign Minister Annalena Baerbock said Monday.\nIn a keynote speech following a visit to the International Criminal Court in The Hague, Baerbock emphasized the need to hold the Russian leadership \"Accountable\" for their invasion, which started almost a year ago.\nTo avoid this impasse, Baerbock said she wanted to form, together with partner countries, \"a special tribunal\" to address the crime of aggression against Ukraine that could investigate and try the Russian leadership.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: international^#1 Court^#2 tribunal^#3 crime^#4 Ukraine^#5", ">\n\nI think that's a fantastic idea.", ">\n\n“This aggression will not stand, man”\n-The Dude\n -Baerbock", ">\n\nPutin's a nihilist?", ">\n\nNoooo funny business, Putbowski", ">\n\nWe ba-lieve in nassing…", ">\n\nI think Putin feels he is above all that, he is untouchable. IMHO the only hope to end the war is for Putin to commit suicide or be assassinated.", ">\n\nKill Putin, someone else will be put in place by the oligarchs. You won't change too much.", ">\n\nI don't think that would happen. The oligarchs likely don't have the megalomaniac inclination Putin has. I don't see them wanting to continue down the road of attaching Ukraine.\nAlthough In the long run, I don't see Russia as becoming a \"nice\" country.", ">\n\nBaerbock proposes special tribunal to fuck the Russian raw", ">\n\nAnnalena is tough, if she could, she would drag Putin by his ear to Nürnberg herself.", ">\n\nShe’s one of the few German politicians I’m really fond of. It’s no wonder why the Greens are doing so well in the polls", ">\n\nMy family keeps hating on her because she misspoke like once or twice in front of the press. They literally do not have one real point of attack, no valid criticism, so they have to resort to personal attacks. It's sad. She's actually quite impressive.", ">\n\nPlagiarized her book? Faked her resume? Spouse became a lobbyist? I mean, she joins a long list of German politicians in these, but she’s not exactly unbefleckt.", ">\n\nWhy stop with Russian leadership? Going after everyone involved in Russian military, logistics, and State media disinformation may have serious affects on there mobilization capacity.", ">\n\nQuestion. What actual crime can they charge Russian State Media personalities with?\nThe West cant find the legal means to deal with sources of misinformation in their own countries, I struggle to see how they can deal with sources of misinformation in another country?", ">\n\nPropaganda organs have been prosecuted as accessory for crimes against humanity in the past.\nThis is actually what the Nuremberg trials were about: how can you proescute a country based on laws that were LEGAL in said country? By which authority do you judge?\nThis is how human rights were even established: laws universial to every human, regardless of national laws. Human laws trump national laws, regardless of where or if that country is not even a signatory to any human rights convention (since there weren't any at the end of WW2).\nAnd this is ALSO why most of the EU has \"anti hate-speech\" laws as they are considered a human rights violation. Or at least as \"preparing the way to make human rights violations acceptable\".", ">\n\nI can see him sitting on a stool without handles to hold on to, in a little glascage, alone, and outside all the people he have singlehanded made widows, childless, fatherless, motherless, quietly starring at him while they each poor a little bottle of water into a hole that slowly fill the cage, staring him right in his scared little face without anyone there to help him, no need for a tribunal...", ">\n\nI hate this kind of talk. due process and a permanent, wide open public record of everything he's responsible for is the way. \nthen Germany can reactivate Spandau for him.", ">\n\nIt's very disturbing how some comments on Reddit really read like some sociopathic behavior. It's not the first time someone promotes torture here.", ">\n\n\nman who lived by the sword is proposed to die by the sword\nNooooo, not the heckin' human rightserinooooos", ">\n\nThat's the point, we need to stay better than those we condemned otherwise we're just hypocrites.", ">\n\nIf that was true, the penalty for forcible confinement couldn't be imprisonment.", ">\n\nThis is a BS idea because “we” will never be able to imprison Putin. He will either be overthrown and die by Russian hands or he will die in Russia as president or with cover from some next dictator.\nGermany needs to stop talking about tribunals and start sending tanks to Ukraine already.Focus on how you can help the Ukrainian people now , don’t offer some utopian solution that has no basis in reality.", ">\n\nIMO there’s a nonzero chance a new Russian leader might hand Putin over to get into the West‘s good graces.", ">\n\nWho might that new leader be? Anyone who has the power to force a change is just as culpable. There is no central opposition to unite and lead the masses so any popular revolt will be picked apart bit by bit.", ">\n\nHey, I never said anything about making actual changes!\nHonestly though: No clue. It's an incredibly unlikely scenario anyways.", ">\n\nPutins gonna get fucked baerbock.", ">\n\nSuch measures are probably counterproductive because it will just make it less likely than Putin will give up and instead will fight to the bitter end.\nOf course such charges could also be negotiated away in order to try to get Putin to give up. Basically if he quits he can go into exile.", ">\n\nWhere was this proposal when the Bush administration was invading Iraq?", ">\n\nNo one complains when the Power Rangers destroys the aliens with the Megazord. Good guys get a free pass", ">\n\nIs Germany going to go into Russia and bring these people to justice?\nThe answer is no. This is just (empty) political theatre.", ">\n\nGermany going into Russia is probably the only way Putin could actually still win this war", ">\n\nFinally, someone grew a pair!", ">\n\nIf you didt noticed putin doesn give a fuck", ">\n\nRussia is still one of the Great Powers. Nobody will go to arrest him without taking a nuke to the face.", ">\n\nHuh? It's a regional power at best.", ">\n\nWhat else are there? The US and China are the only Superpowers. The only Great Powers of Europe that remain are because of their militaries including nukes. It is why Germany is no more a great power, and it had no colonies anymore. The UK has its possessions, so do France, and Russia its Near Abroad. Everyone else may have some armies but not nukes enough and no colonies.", ">\n\nOh now there’s consequences? So before now there were no consequences?", ">\n\nNow if only Germany stopped stalling and blocking others from delivering equipment Ukraine needs to make it happen that would be great.", ">\n\nThat'll show him /s", ">\n\nLOL. You let him get away with Crimea. Let's stop play acting.", ">\n\nMust he?...", ">\n\nCriminal ad hoc tribunals are a legal aberration that are prohited by good reason at a national level by most democratic constitutions.\nIt's time to give the International Criminal Court, that was made to prosecute this kind of thing, actual jurisdiction over the world and a way to effectively enforce their judgements.", ">\n\nThey have Jurisdiction in Ukraine, from a Jurisdictional standpoint it isn't a problem really as Ukraine consented to ICC Jurisdiction.", ">\n\nBut not Russia, even if the country came under new management, I have a hard time believing they would allow this.\nCan see someone pulling an Eichmann on them tho.", ">\n\nBetter give tanks to Ukrainians. If Ukraine loose, forget tribunal. Mean time German FM can do something more useful. For example play golf.", ">\n\nThis aggression will not stand, man!", ">\n\nBy the time the debate rages 100 more lives will be lost and thousands will be left in the freezing weather. The priority should be to to stop this .whatever that takes . It is in no one's interest to continue this war.", ">\n\nAll for it. But while we're at it, can we also work on the backlog? Russia's not the first nation to go on unprovoked killing sprees since WW2. Making absolutely sure any tribunal prosecuting those responsible for committing wars of aggression and expansion to increase spheres of influence is seen as utterly impartial to the entire world has to be a priority here, if the desired effect is to prevent more of these behaviours in the future. Which it must, of course. The task is to establish a rule of law based international order again. It won't work, if what really determines whether you'll get trialled is the size of your military and the aggressiveness of your stance. Might as well not bother then, a lot of effort just to end up where we started, at might makes right.", ">\n\nRussia coming with an \"Hague Invasion Act\" bootleg soon^TM", ">\n\nOmg she is stunningly beautiful", ">\n\nThere should be no way this war ends and Russia isn’t completely isolated from normal world society until change occurs, or the current leadership is prosecuted. Meaning for me anyway, that cannot leave Russian territory without the threat of being arrested in nearly every country.\nUnfortunately the Russian people don’t care enough now to remove Putin and his subordinates from power.", ">\n\nGood!!!", ">\n\nThis is all trump's fault. He's the most recent and successful LIAR there's been. He lied his way through the presidency, treated putin like a god, made fake news and disinformation mainstream and almost stole an election he was blown away in. \nputin watched him and realized he can totally bs his way through anything, even more than he already was.\nnow it's happened in Brazil also. thanks trump for studying hitler so closely.\nOh and Mark Zuckerberg. Social Media is going to destroy society person by person if we don't curb it and govern it. It's like screaming fire in a movie theater with 100 million in the audience.", ">\n\nA dumb idea. He'll have nothing to lose by then. Also, these dicks now go to The Hague." ]

[ "They can offer Nuremberg. It has the premises ready", ">\n\nWould be truly symbolic, not that there would be any chance to extract Putin and his cronies from Russia, while it still possesses nukes...", ">\n\nThere is certainly a chance. There are 147 million people in the Russian federation. They can throw 147 into the court system. A court system which will give those 147 men the opportunity to defend themselves and to face consequences only for actions which those 147 men are actually guilty of and no more. In exchange Russia gets the opportunity to participate in global civilization and share the freedom and prosperity. If they do not take the offer the Russian people have to languish under the despotism of those same 147 criminals. \nI do not know the odds but they are greater than zero.", ">\n\nI don't mean to shit on your idea because it isn't bad, it's just unrealistic. First off, you know those 147 men would consist of critics of Putin and journalists he was already about to assassinate anyway.\nBut the even bigger issue is the assumption that they would want to participate in this current global civilization. Putin banked all his capital on the \"history is written by the victor\" sentiment, not to mention the shared sentiment with China of forcing their perception on other nations with weaponized hypocrisy.\nPutin will never admit that his invasion failed, or that he committed war crimes or give up land. He wants to fight until the rest of the world is fatigued enough to concede and admit defeat to just end this already.\nAnd while it's definitely a condemnable attitude, he wouldn't stick to this if it weren't normalized in the past. The Crimea has been annexed since 2014, yet it was more convenient for everyone to just agree that \"those aren't Russian army men\" even though of course they were.\nSame with China putting pressure on the West to turn a blind eye on its' many questionable practices.\nYou can't just roll over and allow autocrats to do whatever and then expect them to suddenly respect you.", ">\n\nI meant Putin can be overthrown. The new administration rounds up the former leadership. \n\nYou can't just roll over and allow autocrats to do whatever and then expect them to suddenly respect you.\n\nBut a people can overthrow their autocratic regime and then become a respected nation.", ">\n\nHe can, but if you look at the timeline of the Russian Revolution of 1917 as a timeline, that ain't exactly a quick process either", ">\n\nCall me when they have Putin in custody. \nHe gives zero shits if his top people end up going to prison for war crimes. \nAnd there’s no way the war doesn’t end without:\n\nPutin dead \nPutin negotiating a deal where he never is held personally responsible. \n\nIt’s right in the dictator handbook. If you kill enough people, other countries will offer to give you a pass just to get you to stop.", ">\n\nHes only going to use it as propaganda, like \"evil west wants to judge me for defending mother russia\".", ">\n\nWhile I agree he should be held accountable, what are they going to do? Walk up to the Kremlin with 20 cops knock on the door and arrest him? This is nothing", ">\n\nNo. The Russians will do that.", ">\n\nI’m not 100% sure about that he’s put fear and blind loyalty in the right places", ">\n\nFear yes! Loyalty I'm not so sure. Seems like those most loyal have had some tragic and fatal accidents as of late. Price of failure I guess. But I'm more sure that those that remain are doing so more out of complete fear than anything else. Putin has everyone guessing who is truly loyal that everyone is too afraid to band together with the other fearful to remove him.", ">\n\nNah some of them mf act like golom and vlad is the god damn ring", ">\n\nNuremberg would be a great location.", ">\n\nThis is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 72%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nTHE HAGUE - The international community should establish a special tribunal to bring Russian President Vladimir Putin and his regime to trial over their war of aggression against Ukraine, German Foreign Minister Annalena Baerbock said Monday.\nIn a keynote speech following a visit to the International Criminal Court in The Hague, Baerbock emphasized the need to hold the Russian leadership \"Accountable\" for their invasion, which started almost a year ago.\nTo avoid this impasse, Baerbock said she wanted to form, together with partner countries, \"a special tribunal\" to address the crime of aggression against Ukraine that could investigate and try the Russian leadership.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: international^#1 Court^#2 tribunal^#3 crime^#4 Ukraine^#5", ">\n\nI think that's a fantastic idea.", ">\n\n“This aggression will not stand, man”\n-The Dude\n -Baerbock", ">\n\nPutin's a nihilist?", ">\n\nNoooo funny business, Putbowski", ">\n\nWe ba-lieve in nassing…", ">\n\nI think Putin feels he is above all that, he is untouchable. IMHO the only hope to end the war is for Putin to commit suicide or be assassinated.", ">\n\nKill Putin, someone else will be put in place by the oligarchs. You won't change too much.", ">\n\nI don't think that would happen. The oligarchs likely don't have the megalomaniac inclination Putin has. I don't see them wanting to continue down the road of attaching Ukraine.\nAlthough In the long run, I don't see Russia as becoming a \"nice\" country.", ">\n\nBaerbock proposes special tribunal to fuck the Russian raw", ">\n\nAnnalena is tough, if she could, she would drag Putin by his ear to Nürnberg herself.", ">\n\nShe’s one of the few German politicians I’m really fond of. It’s no wonder why the Greens are doing so well in the polls", ">\n\nMy family keeps hating on her because she misspoke like once or twice in front of the press. They literally do not have one real point of attack, no valid criticism, so they have to resort to personal attacks. It's sad. She's actually quite impressive.", ">\n\nPlagiarized her book? Faked her resume? Spouse became a lobbyist? I mean, she joins a long list of German politicians in these, but she’s not exactly unbefleckt.", ">\n\nWhy stop with Russian leadership? Going after everyone involved in Russian military, logistics, and State media disinformation may have serious affects on there mobilization capacity.", ">\n\nQuestion. What actual crime can they charge Russian State Media personalities with?\nThe West cant find the legal means to deal with sources of misinformation in their own countries, I struggle to see how they can deal with sources of misinformation in another country?", ">\n\nPropaganda organs have been prosecuted as accessory for crimes against humanity in the past.\nThis is actually what the Nuremberg trials were about: how can you proescute a country based on laws that were LEGAL in said country? By which authority do you judge?\nThis is how human rights were even established: laws universial to every human, regardless of national laws. Human laws trump national laws, regardless of where or if that country is not even a signatory to any human rights convention (since there weren't any at the end of WW2).\nAnd this is ALSO why most of the EU has \"anti hate-speech\" laws as they are considered a human rights violation. Or at least as \"preparing the way to make human rights violations acceptable\".", ">\n\nI can see him sitting on a stool without handles to hold on to, in a little glascage, alone, and outside all the people he have singlehanded made widows, childless, fatherless, motherless, quietly starring at him while they each poor a little bottle of water into a hole that slowly fill the cage, staring him right in his scared little face without anyone there to help him, no need for a tribunal...", ">\n\nI hate this kind of talk. due process and a permanent, wide open public record of everything he's responsible for is the way. \nthen Germany can reactivate Spandau for him.", ">\n\nIt's very disturbing how some comments on Reddit really read like some sociopathic behavior. It's not the first time someone promotes torture here.", ">\n\n\nman who lived by the sword is proposed to die by the sword\nNooooo, not the heckin' human rightserinooooos", ">\n\nThat's the point, we need to stay better than those we condemned otherwise we're just hypocrites.", ">\n\nIf that was true, the penalty for forcible confinement couldn't be imprisonment.", ">\n\nThis is a BS idea because “we” will never be able to imprison Putin. He will either be overthrown and die by Russian hands or he will die in Russia as president or with cover from some next dictator.\nGermany needs to stop talking about tribunals and start sending tanks to Ukraine already.Focus on how you can help the Ukrainian people now , don’t offer some utopian solution that has no basis in reality.", ">\n\nIMO there’s a nonzero chance a new Russian leader might hand Putin over to get into the West‘s good graces.", ">\n\nWho might that new leader be? Anyone who has the power to force a change is just as culpable. There is no central opposition to unite and lead the masses so any popular revolt will be picked apart bit by bit.", ">\n\nHey, I never said anything about making actual changes!\nHonestly though: No clue. It's an incredibly unlikely scenario anyways.", ">\n\nPutins gonna get fucked baerbock.", ">\n\nSuch measures are probably counterproductive because it will just make it less likely than Putin will give up and instead will fight to the bitter end.\nOf course such charges could also be negotiated away in order to try to get Putin to give up. Basically if he quits he can go into exile.", ">\n\nWhere was this proposal when the Bush administration was invading Iraq?", ">\n\nNo one complains when the Power Rangers destroys the aliens with the Megazord. Good guys get a free pass", ">\n\nIs Germany going to go into Russia and bring these people to justice?\nThe answer is no. This is just (empty) political theatre.", ">\n\nGermany going into Russia is probably the only way Putin could actually still win this war", ">\n\nFinally, someone grew a pair!", ">\n\nIf you didt noticed putin doesn give a fuck", ">\n\nRussia is still one of the Great Powers. Nobody will go to arrest him without taking a nuke to the face.", ">\n\nHuh? It's a regional power at best.", ">\n\nWhat else are there? The US and China are the only Superpowers. The only Great Powers of Europe that remain are because of their militaries including nukes. It is why Germany is no more a great power, and it had no colonies anymore. The UK has its possessions, so do France, and Russia its Near Abroad. Everyone else may have some armies but not nukes enough and no colonies.", ">\n\nOh now there’s consequences? So before now there were no consequences?", ">\n\nNow if only Germany stopped stalling and blocking others from delivering equipment Ukraine needs to make it happen that would be great.", ">\n\nThat'll show him /s", ">\n\nLOL. You let him get away with Crimea. Let's stop play acting.", ">\n\nMust he?...", ">\n\nCriminal ad hoc tribunals are a legal aberration that are prohited by good reason at a national level by most democratic constitutions.\nIt's time to give the International Criminal Court, that was made to prosecute this kind of thing, actual jurisdiction over the world and a way to effectively enforce their judgements.", ">\n\nThey have Jurisdiction in Ukraine, from a Jurisdictional standpoint it isn't a problem really as Ukraine consented to ICC Jurisdiction.", ">\n\nBut not Russia, even if the country came under new management, I have a hard time believing they would allow this.\nCan see someone pulling an Eichmann on them tho.", ">\n\nBetter give tanks to Ukrainians. If Ukraine loose, forget tribunal. Mean time German FM can do something more useful. For example play golf.", ">\n\nThis aggression will not stand, man!", ">\n\nBy the time the debate rages 100 more lives will be lost and thousands will be left in the freezing weather. The priority should be to to stop this .whatever that takes . It is in no one's interest to continue this war.", ">\n\nAll for it. But while we're at it, can we also work on the backlog? Russia's not the first nation to go on unprovoked killing sprees since WW2. Making absolutely sure any tribunal prosecuting those responsible for committing wars of aggression and expansion to increase spheres of influence is seen as utterly impartial to the entire world has to be a priority here, if the desired effect is to prevent more of these behaviours in the future. Which it must, of course. The task is to establish a rule of law based international order again. It won't work, if what really determines whether you'll get trialled is the size of your military and the aggressiveness of your stance. Might as well not bother then, a lot of effort just to end up where we started, at might makes right.", ">\n\nRussia coming with an \"Hague Invasion Act\" bootleg soon^TM", ">\n\nOmg she is stunningly beautiful", ">\n\nThere should be no way this war ends and Russia isn’t completely isolated from normal world society until change occurs, or the current leadership is prosecuted. Meaning for me anyway, that cannot leave Russian territory without the threat of being arrested in nearly every country.\nUnfortunately the Russian people don’t care enough now to remove Putin and his subordinates from power.", ">\n\nGood!!!", ">\n\nThis is all trump's fault. He's the most recent and successful LIAR there's been. He lied his way through the presidency, treated putin like a god, made fake news and disinformation mainstream and almost stole an election he was blown away in. \nputin watched him and realized he can totally bs his way through anything, even more than he already was.\nnow it's happened in Brazil also. thanks trump for studying hitler so closely.\nOh and Mark Zuckerberg. Social Media is going to destroy society person by person if we don't curb it and govern it. It's like screaming fire in a movie theater with 100 million in the audience.", ">\n\nA dumb idea. He'll have nothing to lose by then. Also, these dicks now go to The Hague.", ">\n\nI personally would like Putin to listen to each relative of victims of war from each side, to know how they feel about war, to show photos of killed relatives, to let them speak what they think about Putin. I really want him to know all this and have time to suffer in his sleep.\nHe lives in his bubble for too long." ]

[ "They can offer Nuremberg. It has the premises ready", ">\n\nWould be truly symbolic, not that there would be any chance to extract Putin and his cronies from Russia, while it still possesses nukes...", ">\n\nThere is certainly a chance. There are 147 million people in the Russian federation. They can throw 147 into the court system. A court system which will give those 147 men the opportunity to defend themselves and to face consequences only for actions which those 147 men are actually guilty of and no more. In exchange Russia gets the opportunity to participate in global civilization and share the freedom and prosperity. If they do not take the offer the Russian people have to languish under the despotism of those same 147 criminals. \nI do not know the odds but they are greater than zero.", ">\n\nI don't mean to shit on your idea because it isn't bad, it's just unrealistic. First off, you know those 147 men would consist of critics of Putin and journalists he was already about to assassinate anyway.\nBut the even bigger issue is the assumption that they would want to participate in this current global civilization. Putin banked all his capital on the \"history is written by the victor\" sentiment, not to mention the shared sentiment with China of forcing their perception on other nations with weaponized hypocrisy.\nPutin will never admit that his invasion failed, or that he committed war crimes or give up land. He wants to fight until the rest of the world is fatigued enough to concede and admit defeat to just end this already.\nAnd while it's definitely a condemnable attitude, he wouldn't stick to this if it weren't normalized in the past. The Crimea has been annexed since 2014, yet it was more convenient for everyone to just agree that \"those aren't Russian army men\" even though of course they were.\nSame with China putting pressure on the West to turn a blind eye on its' many questionable practices.\nYou can't just roll over and allow autocrats to do whatever and then expect them to suddenly respect you.", ">\n\nI meant Putin can be overthrown. The new administration rounds up the former leadership. \n\nYou can't just roll over and allow autocrats to do whatever and then expect them to suddenly respect you.\n\nBut a people can overthrow their autocratic regime and then become a respected nation.", ">\n\nHe can, but if you look at the timeline of the Russian Revolution of 1917 as a timeline, that ain't exactly a quick process either", ">\n\nCall me when they have Putin in custody. \nHe gives zero shits if his top people end up going to prison for war crimes. \nAnd there’s no way the war doesn’t end without:\n\nPutin dead \nPutin negotiating a deal where he never is held personally responsible. \n\nIt’s right in the dictator handbook. If you kill enough people, other countries will offer to give you a pass just to get you to stop.", ">\n\nHes only going to use it as propaganda, like \"evil west wants to judge me for defending mother russia\".", ">\n\nWhile I agree he should be held accountable, what are they going to do? Walk up to the Kremlin with 20 cops knock on the door and arrest him? This is nothing", ">\n\nNo. The Russians will do that.", ">\n\nI’m not 100% sure about that he’s put fear and blind loyalty in the right places", ">\n\nFear yes! Loyalty I'm not so sure. Seems like those most loyal have had some tragic and fatal accidents as of late. Price of failure I guess. But I'm more sure that those that remain are doing so more out of complete fear than anything else. Putin has everyone guessing who is truly loyal that everyone is too afraid to band together with the other fearful to remove him.", ">\n\nNah some of them mf act like golom and vlad is the god damn ring", ">\n\nNuremberg would be a great location.", ">\n\nThis is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 72%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nTHE HAGUE - The international community should establish a special tribunal to bring Russian President Vladimir Putin and his regime to trial over their war of aggression against Ukraine, German Foreign Minister Annalena Baerbock said Monday.\nIn a keynote speech following a visit to the International Criminal Court in The Hague, Baerbock emphasized the need to hold the Russian leadership \"Accountable\" for their invasion, which started almost a year ago.\nTo avoid this impasse, Baerbock said she wanted to form, together with partner countries, \"a special tribunal\" to address the crime of aggression against Ukraine that could investigate and try the Russian leadership.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: international^#1 Court^#2 tribunal^#3 crime^#4 Ukraine^#5", ">\n\nI think that's a fantastic idea.", ">\n\n“This aggression will not stand, man”\n-The Dude\n -Baerbock", ">\n\nPutin's a nihilist?", ">\n\nNoooo funny business, Putbowski", ">\n\nWe ba-lieve in nassing…", ">\n\nI think Putin feels he is above all that, he is untouchable. IMHO the only hope to end the war is for Putin to commit suicide or be assassinated.", ">\n\nKill Putin, someone else will be put in place by the oligarchs. You won't change too much.", ">\n\nI don't think that would happen. The oligarchs likely don't have the megalomaniac inclination Putin has. I don't see them wanting to continue down the road of attaching Ukraine.\nAlthough In the long run, I don't see Russia as becoming a \"nice\" country.", ">\n\nBaerbock proposes special tribunal to fuck the Russian raw", ">\n\nAnnalena is tough, if she could, she would drag Putin by his ear to Nürnberg herself.", ">\n\nShe’s one of the few German politicians I’m really fond of. It’s no wonder why the Greens are doing so well in the polls", ">\n\nMy family keeps hating on her because she misspoke like once or twice in front of the press. They literally do not have one real point of attack, no valid criticism, so they have to resort to personal attacks. It's sad. She's actually quite impressive.", ">\n\nPlagiarized her book? Faked her resume? Spouse became a lobbyist? I mean, she joins a long list of German politicians in these, but she’s not exactly unbefleckt.", ">\n\nWhy stop with Russian leadership? Going after everyone involved in Russian military, logistics, and State media disinformation may have serious affects on there mobilization capacity.", ">\n\nQuestion. What actual crime can they charge Russian State Media personalities with?\nThe West cant find the legal means to deal with sources of misinformation in their own countries, I struggle to see how they can deal with sources of misinformation in another country?", ">\n\nPropaganda organs have been prosecuted as accessory for crimes against humanity in the past.\nThis is actually what the Nuremberg trials were about: how can you proescute a country based on laws that were LEGAL in said country? By which authority do you judge?\nThis is how human rights were even established: laws universial to every human, regardless of national laws. Human laws trump national laws, regardless of where or if that country is not even a signatory to any human rights convention (since there weren't any at the end of WW2).\nAnd this is ALSO why most of the EU has \"anti hate-speech\" laws as they are considered a human rights violation. Or at least as \"preparing the way to make human rights violations acceptable\".", ">\n\nI can see him sitting on a stool without handles to hold on to, in a little glascage, alone, and outside all the people he have singlehanded made widows, childless, fatherless, motherless, quietly starring at him while they each poor a little bottle of water into a hole that slowly fill the cage, staring him right in his scared little face without anyone there to help him, no need for a tribunal...", ">\n\nI hate this kind of talk. due process and a permanent, wide open public record of everything he's responsible for is the way. \nthen Germany can reactivate Spandau for him.", ">\n\nIt's very disturbing how some comments on Reddit really read like some sociopathic behavior. It's not the first time someone promotes torture here.", ">\n\n\nman who lived by the sword is proposed to die by the sword\nNooooo, not the heckin' human rightserinooooos", ">\n\nThat's the point, we need to stay better than those we condemned otherwise we're just hypocrites.", ">\n\nIf that was true, the penalty for forcible confinement couldn't be imprisonment.", ">\n\nThis is a BS idea because “we” will never be able to imprison Putin. He will either be overthrown and die by Russian hands or he will die in Russia as president or with cover from some next dictator.\nGermany needs to stop talking about tribunals and start sending tanks to Ukraine already.Focus on how you can help the Ukrainian people now , don’t offer some utopian solution that has no basis in reality.", ">\n\nIMO there’s a nonzero chance a new Russian leader might hand Putin over to get into the West‘s good graces.", ">\n\nWho might that new leader be? Anyone who has the power to force a change is just as culpable. There is no central opposition to unite and lead the masses so any popular revolt will be picked apart bit by bit.", ">\n\nHey, I never said anything about making actual changes!\nHonestly though: No clue. It's an incredibly unlikely scenario anyways.", ">\n\nPutins gonna get fucked baerbock.", ">\n\nSuch measures are probably counterproductive because it will just make it less likely than Putin will give up and instead will fight to the bitter end.\nOf course such charges could also be negotiated away in order to try to get Putin to give up. Basically if he quits he can go into exile.", ">\n\nWhere was this proposal when the Bush administration was invading Iraq?", ">\n\nNo one complains when the Power Rangers destroys the aliens with the Megazord. Good guys get a free pass", ">\n\nIs Germany going to go into Russia and bring these people to justice?\nThe answer is no. This is just (empty) political theatre.", ">\n\nGermany going into Russia is probably the only way Putin could actually still win this war", ">\n\nFinally, someone grew a pair!", ">\n\nIf you didt noticed putin doesn give a fuck", ">\n\nRussia is still one of the Great Powers. Nobody will go to arrest him without taking a nuke to the face.", ">\n\nHuh? It's a regional power at best.", ">\n\nWhat else are there? The US and China are the only Superpowers. The only Great Powers of Europe that remain are because of their militaries including nukes. It is why Germany is no more a great power, and it had no colonies anymore. The UK has its possessions, so do France, and Russia its Near Abroad. Everyone else may have some armies but not nukes enough and no colonies.", ">\n\nOh now there’s consequences? So before now there were no consequences?", ">\n\nNow if only Germany stopped stalling and blocking others from delivering equipment Ukraine needs to make it happen that would be great.", ">\n\nThat'll show him /s", ">\n\nLOL. You let him get away with Crimea. Let's stop play acting.", ">\n\nMust he?...", ">\n\nCriminal ad hoc tribunals are a legal aberration that are prohited by good reason at a national level by most democratic constitutions.\nIt's time to give the International Criminal Court, that was made to prosecute this kind of thing, actual jurisdiction over the world and a way to effectively enforce their judgements.", ">\n\nThey have Jurisdiction in Ukraine, from a Jurisdictional standpoint it isn't a problem really as Ukraine consented to ICC Jurisdiction.", ">\n\nBut not Russia, even if the country came under new management, I have a hard time believing they would allow this.\nCan see someone pulling an Eichmann on them tho.", ">\n\nBetter give tanks to Ukrainians. If Ukraine loose, forget tribunal. Mean time German FM can do something more useful. For example play golf.", ">\n\nThis aggression will not stand, man!", ">\n\nBy the time the debate rages 100 more lives will be lost and thousands will be left in the freezing weather. The priority should be to to stop this .whatever that takes . It is in no one's interest to continue this war.", ">\n\nAll for it. But while we're at it, can we also work on the backlog? Russia's not the first nation to go on unprovoked killing sprees since WW2. Making absolutely sure any tribunal prosecuting those responsible for committing wars of aggression and expansion to increase spheres of influence is seen as utterly impartial to the entire world has to be a priority here, if the desired effect is to prevent more of these behaviours in the future. Which it must, of course. The task is to establish a rule of law based international order again. It won't work, if what really determines whether you'll get trialled is the size of your military and the aggressiveness of your stance. Might as well not bother then, a lot of effort just to end up where we started, at might makes right.", ">\n\nRussia coming with an \"Hague Invasion Act\" bootleg soon^TM", ">\n\nOmg she is stunningly beautiful", ">\n\nThere should be no way this war ends and Russia isn’t completely isolated from normal world society until change occurs, or the current leadership is prosecuted. Meaning for me anyway, that cannot leave Russian territory without the threat of being arrested in nearly every country.\nUnfortunately the Russian people don’t care enough now to remove Putin and his subordinates from power.", ">\n\nGood!!!", ">\n\nThis is all trump's fault. He's the most recent and successful LIAR there's been. He lied his way through the presidency, treated putin like a god, made fake news and disinformation mainstream and almost stole an election he was blown away in. \nputin watched him and realized he can totally bs his way through anything, even more than he already was.\nnow it's happened in Brazil also. thanks trump for studying hitler so closely.\nOh and Mark Zuckerberg. Social Media is going to destroy society person by person if we don't curb it and govern it. It's like screaming fire in a movie theater with 100 million in the audience.", ">\n\nA dumb idea. He'll have nothing to lose by then. Also, these dicks now go to The Hague.", ">\n\nI personally would like Putin to listen to each relative of victims of war from each side, to know how they feel about war, to show photos of killed relatives, to let them speak what they think about Putin. I really want him to know all this and have time to suffer in his sleep.\nHe lives in his bubble for too long.", ">\n\nDamn! Surprisingly hot for a German politician" ]

[ "They can offer Nuremberg. It has the premises ready", ">\n\nWould be truly symbolic, not that there would be any chance to extract Putin and his cronies from Russia, while it still possesses nukes...", ">\n\nThere is certainly a chance. There are 147 million people in the Russian federation. They can throw 147 into the court system. A court system which will give those 147 men the opportunity to defend themselves and to face consequences only for actions which those 147 men are actually guilty of and no more. In exchange Russia gets the opportunity to participate in global civilization and share the freedom and prosperity. If they do not take the offer the Russian people have to languish under the despotism of those same 147 criminals. \nI do not know the odds but they are greater than zero.", ">\n\nI don't mean to shit on your idea because it isn't bad, it's just unrealistic. First off, you know those 147 men would consist of critics of Putin and journalists he was already about to assassinate anyway.\nBut the even bigger issue is the assumption that they would want to participate in this current global civilization. Putin banked all his capital on the \"history is written by the victor\" sentiment, not to mention the shared sentiment with China of forcing their perception on other nations with weaponized hypocrisy.\nPutin will never admit that his invasion failed, or that he committed war crimes or give up land. He wants to fight until the rest of the world is fatigued enough to concede and admit defeat to just end this already.\nAnd while it's definitely a condemnable attitude, he wouldn't stick to this if it weren't normalized in the past. The Crimea has been annexed since 2014, yet it was more convenient for everyone to just agree that \"those aren't Russian army men\" even though of course they were.\nSame with China putting pressure on the West to turn a blind eye on its' many questionable practices.\nYou can't just roll over and allow autocrats to do whatever and then expect them to suddenly respect you.", ">\n\nI meant Putin can be overthrown. The new administration rounds up the former leadership. \n\nYou can't just roll over and allow autocrats to do whatever and then expect them to suddenly respect you.\n\nBut a people can overthrow their autocratic regime and then become a respected nation.", ">\n\nHe can, but if you look at the timeline of the Russian Revolution of 1917 as a timeline, that ain't exactly a quick process either", ">\n\nCall me when they have Putin in custody. \nHe gives zero shits if his top people end up going to prison for war crimes. \nAnd there’s no way the war doesn’t end without:\n\nPutin dead \nPutin negotiating a deal where he never is held personally responsible. \n\nIt’s right in the dictator handbook. If you kill enough people, other countries will offer to give you a pass just to get you to stop.", ">\n\nHes only going to use it as propaganda, like \"evil west wants to judge me for defending mother russia\".", ">\n\nWhile I agree he should be held accountable, what are they going to do? Walk up to the Kremlin with 20 cops knock on the door and arrest him? This is nothing", ">\n\nNo. The Russians will do that.", ">\n\nI’m not 100% sure about that he’s put fear and blind loyalty in the right places", ">\n\nFear yes! Loyalty I'm not so sure. Seems like those most loyal have had some tragic and fatal accidents as of late. Price of failure I guess. But I'm more sure that those that remain are doing so more out of complete fear than anything else. Putin has everyone guessing who is truly loyal that everyone is too afraid to band together with the other fearful to remove him.", ">\n\nNah some of them mf act like golom and vlad is the god damn ring", ">\n\nNuremberg would be a great location.", ">\n\nThis is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 72%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nTHE HAGUE - The international community should establish a special tribunal to bring Russian President Vladimir Putin and his regime to trial over their war of aggression against Ukraine, German Foreign Minister Annalena Baerbock said Monday.\nIn a keynote speech following a visit to the International Criminal Court in The Hague, Baerbock emphasized the need to hold the Russian leadership \"Accountable\" for their invasion, which started almost a year ago.\nTo avoid this impasse, Baerbock said she wanted to form, together with partner countries, \"a special tribunal\" to address the crime of aggression against Ukraine that could investigate and try the Russian leadership.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: international^#1 Court^#2 tribunal^#3 crime^#4 Ukraine^#5", ">\n\nI think that's a fantastic idea.", ">\n\n“This aggression will not stand, man”\n-The Dude\n -Baerbock", ">\n\nPutin's a nihilist?", ">\n\nNoooo funny business, Putbowski", ">\n\nWe ba-lieve in nassing…", ">\n\nI think Putin feels he is above all that, he is untouchable. IMHO the only hope to end the war is for Putin to commit suicide or be assassinated.", ">\n\nKill Putin, someone else will be put in place by the oligarchs. You won't change too much.", ">\n\nI don't think that would happen. The oligarchs likely don't have the megalomaniac inclination Putin has. I don't see them wanting to continue down the road of attaching Ukraine.\nAlthough In the long run, I don't see Russia as becoming a \"nice\" country.", ">\n\nBaerbock proposes special tribunal to fuck the Russian raw", ">\n\nAnnalena is tough, if she could, she would drag Putin by his ear to Nürnberg herself.", ">\n\nShe’s one of the few German politicians I’m really fond of. It’s no wonder why the Greens are doing so well in the polls", ">\n\nMy family keeps hating on her because she misspoke like once or twice in front of the press. They literally do not have one real point of attack, no valid criticism, so they have to resort to personal attacks. It's sad. She's actually quite impressive.", ">\n\nPlagiarized her book? Faked her resume? Spouse became a lobbyist? I mean, she joins a long list of German politicians in these, but she’s not exactly unbefleckt.", ">\n\nWhy stop with Russian leadership? Going after everyone involved in Russian military, logistics, and State media disinformation may have serious affects on there mobilization capacity.", ">\n\nQuestion. What actual crime can they charge Russian State Media personalities with?\nThe West cant find the legal means to deal with sources of misinformation in their own countries, I struggle to see how they can deal with sources of misinformation in another country?", ">\n\nPropaganda organs have been prosecuted as accessory for crimes against humanity in the past.\nThis is actually what the Nuremberg trials were about: how can you proescute a country based on laws that were LEGAL in said country? By which authority do you judge?\nThis is how human rights were even established: laws universial to every human, regardless of national laws. Human laws trump national laws, regardless of where or if that country is not even a signatory to any human rights convention (since there weren't any at the end of WW2).\nAnd this is ALSO why most of the EU has \"anti hate-speech\" laws as they are considered a human rights violation. Or at least as \"preparing the way to make human rights violations acceptable\".", ">\n\nI can see him sitting on a stool without handles to hold on to, in a little glascage, alone, and outside all the people he have singlehanded made widows, childless, fatherless, motherless, quietly starring at him while they each poor a little bottle of water into a hole that slowly fill the cage, staring him right in his scared little face without anyone there to help him, no need for a tribunal...", ">\n\nI hate this kind of talk. due process and a permanent, wide open public record of everything he's responsible for is the way. \nthen Germany can reactivate Spandau for him.", ">\n\nIt's very disturbing how some comments on Reddit really read like some sociopathic behavior. It's not the first time someone promotes torture here.", ">\n\n\nman who lived by the sword is proposed to die by the sword\nNooooo, not the heckin' human rightserinooooos", ">\n\nThat's the point, we need to stay better than those we condemned otherwise we're just hypocrites.", ">\n\nIf that was true, the penalty for forcible confinement couldn't be imprisonment.", ">\n\nThis is a BS idea because “we” will never be able to imprison Putin. He will either be overthrown and die by Russian hands or he will die in Russia as president or with cover from some next dictator.\nGermany needs to stop talking about tribunals and start sending tanks to Ukraine already.Focus on how you can help the Ukrainian people now , don’t offer some utopian solution that has no basis in reality.", ">\n\nIMO there’s a nonzero chance a new Russian leader might hand Putin over to get into the West‘s good graces.", ">\n\nWho might that new leader be? Anyone who has the power to force a change is just as culpable. There is no central opposition to unite and lead the masses so any popular revolt will be picked apart bit by bit.", ">\n\nHey, I never said anything about making actual changes!\nHonestly though: No clue. It's an incredibly unlikely scenario anyways.", ">\n\nPutins gonna get fucked baerbock.", ">\n\nSuch measures are probably counterproductive because it will just make it less likely than Putin will give up and instead will fight to the bitter end.\nOf course such charges could also be negotiated away in order to try to get Putin to give up. Basically if he quits he can go into exile.", ">\n\nWhere was this proposal when the Bush administration was invading Iraq?", ">\n\nNo one complains when the Power Rangers destroys the aliens with the Megazord. Good guys get a free pass", ">\n\nIs Germany going to go into Russia and bring these people to justice?\nThe answer is no. This is just (empty) political theatre.", ">\n\nGermany going into Russia is probably the only way Putin could actually still win this war", ">\n\nFinally, someone grew a pair!", ">\n\nIf you didt noticed putin doesn give a fuck", ">\n\nRussia is still one of the Great Powers. Nobody will go to arrest him without taking a nuke to the face.", ">\n\nHuh? It's a regional power at best.", ">\n\nWhat else are there? The US and China are the only Superpowers. The only Great Powers of Europe that remain are because of their militaries including nukes. It is why Germany is no more a great power, and it had no colonies anymore. The UK has its possessions, so do France, and Russia its Near Abroad. Everyone else may have some armies but not nukes enough and no colonies.", ">\n\nOh now there’s consequences? So before now there were no consequences?", ">\n\nNow if only Germany stopped stalling and blocking others from delivering equipment Ukraine needs to make it happen that would be great.", ">\n\nThat'll show him /s", ">\n\nLOL. You let him get away with Crimea. Let's stop play acting.", ">\n\nMust he?...", ">\n\nCriminal ad hoc tribunals are a legal aberration that are prohited by good reason at a national level by most democratic constitutions.\nIt's time to give the International Criminal Court, that was made to prosecute this kind of thing, actual jurisdiction over the world and a way to effectively enforce their judgements.", ">\n\nThey have Jurisdiction in Ukraine, from a Jurisdictional standpoint it isn't a problem really as Ukraine consented to ICC Jurisdiction.", ">\n\nBut not Russia, even if the country came under new management, I have a hard time believing they would allow this.\nCan see someone pulling an Eichmann on them tho.", ">\n\nBetter give tanks to Ukrainians. If Ukraine loose, forget tribunal. Mean time German FM can do something more useful. For example play golf.", ">\n\nThis aggression will not stand, man!", ">\n\nBy the time the debate rages 100 more lives will be lost and thousands will be left in the freezing weather. The priority should be to to stop this .whatever that takes . It is in no one's interest to continue this war.", ">\n\nAll for it. But while we're at it, can we also work on the backlog? Russia's not the first nation to go on unprovoked killing sprees since WW2. Making absolutely sure any tribunal prosecuting those responsible for committing wars of aggression and expansion to increase spheres of influence is seen as utterly impartial to the entire world has to be a priority here, if the desired effect is to prevent more of these behaviours in the future. Which it must, of course. The task is to establish a rule of law based international order again. It won't work, if what really determines whether you'll get trialled is the size of your military and the aggressiveness of your stance. Might as well not bother then, a lot of effort just to end up where we started, at might makes right.", ">\n\nRussia coming with an \"Hague Invasion Act\" bootleg soon^TM", ">\n\nOmg she is stunningly beautiful", ">\n\nThere should be no way this war ends and Russia isn’t completely isolated from normal world society until change occurs, or the current leadership is prosecuted. Meaning for me anyway, that cannot leave Russian territory without the threat of being arrested in nearly every country.\nUnfortunately the Russian people don’t care enough now to remove Putin and his subordinates from power.", ">\n\nGood!!!", ">\n\nThis is all trump's fault. He's the most recent and successful LIAR there's been. He lied his way through the presidency, treated putin like a god, made fake news and disinformation mainstream and almost stole an election he was blown away in. \nputin watched him and realized he can totally bs his way through anything, even more than he already was.\nnow it's happened in Brazil also. thanks trump for studying hitler so closely.\nOh and Mark Zuckerberg. Social Media is going to destroy society person by person if we don't curb it and govern it. It's like screaming fire in a movie theater with 100 million in the audience.", ">\n\nA dumb idea. He'll have nothing to lose by then. Also, these dicks now go to The Hague.", ">\n\nI personally would like Putin to listen to each relative of victims of war from each side, to know how they feel about war, to show photos of killed relatives, to let them speak what they think about Putin. I really want him to know all this and have time to suffer in his sleep.\nHe lives in his bubble for too long.", ">\n\nDamn! Surprisingly hot for a German politician", ">\n\nFuck yeah! Send that bitch to The Hague" ]

[ "They can offer Nuremberg. It has the premises ready", ">\n\nWould be truly symbolic, not that there would be any chance to extract Putin and his cronies from Russia, while it still possesses nukes...", ">\n\nThere is certainly a chance. There are 147 million people in the Russian federation. They can throw 147 into the court system. A court system which will give those 147 men the opportunity to defend themselves and to face consequences only for actions which those 147 men are actually guilty of and no more. In exchange Russia gets the opportunity to participate in global civilization and share the freedom and prosperity. If they do not take the offer the Russian people have to languish under the despotism of those same 147 criminals. \nI do not know the odds but they are greater than zero.", ">\n\nI don't mean to shit on your idea because it isn't bad, it's just unrealistic. First off, you know those 147 men would consist of critics of Putin and journalists he was already about to assassinate anyway.\nBut the even bigger issue is the assumption that they would want to participate in this current global civilization. Putin banked all his capital on the \"history is written by the victor\" sentiment, not to mention the shared sentiment with China of forcing their perception on other nations with weaponized hypocrisy.\nPutin will never admit that his invasion failed, or that he committed war crimes or give up land. He wants to fight until the rest of the world is fatigued enough to concede and admit defeat to just end this already.\nAnd while it's definitely a condemnable attitude, he wouldn't stick to this if it weren't normalized in the past. The Crimea has been annexed since 2014, yet it was more convenient for everyone to just agree that \"those aren't Russian army men\" even though of course they were.\nSame with China putting pressure on the West to turn a blind eye on its' many questionable practices.\nYou can't just roll over and allow autocrats to do whatever and then expect them to suddenly respect you.", ">\n\nI meant Putin can be overthrown. The new administration rounds up the former leadership. \n\nYou can't just roll over and allow autocrats to do whatever and then expect them to suddenly respect you.\n\nBut a people can overthrow their autocratic regime and then become a respected nation.", ">\n\nHe can, but if you look at the timeline of the Russian Revolution of 1917 as a timeline, that ain't exactly a quick process either", ">\n\nCall me when they have Putin in custody. \nHe gives zero shits if his top people end up going to prison for war crimes. \nAnd there’s no way the war doesn’t end without:\n\nPutin dead \nPutin negotiating a deal where he never is held personally responsible. \n\nIt’s right in the dictator handbook. If you kill enough people, other countries will offer to give you a pass just to get you to stop.", ">\n\nHes only going to use it as propaganda, like \"evil west wants to judge me for defending mother russia\".", ">\n\nWhile I agree he should be held accountable, what are they going to do? Walk up to the Kremlin with 20 cops knock on the door and arrest him? This is nothing", ">\n\nNo. The Russians will do that.", ">\n\nI’m not 100% sure about that he’s put fear and blind loyalty in the right places", ">\n\nFear yes! Loyalty I'm not so sure. Seems like those most loyal have had some tragic and fatal accidents as of late. Price of failure I guess. But I'm more sure that those that remain are doing so more out of complete fear than anything else. Putin has everyone guessing who is truly loyal that everyone is too afraid to band together with the other fearful to remove him.", ">\n\nNah some of them mf act like golom and vlad is the god damn ring", ">\n\nNuremberg would be a great location.", ">\n\nThis is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 72%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nTHE HAGUE - The international community should establish a special tribunal to bring Russian President Vladimir Putin and his regime to trial over their war of aggression against Ukraine, German Foreign Minister Annalena Baerbock said Monday.\nIn a keynote speech following a visit to the International Criminal Court in The Hague, Baerbock emphasized the need to hold the Russian leadership \"Accountable\" for their invasion, which started almost a year ago.\nTo avoid this impasse, Baerbock said she wanted to form, together with partner countries, \"a special tribunal\" to address the crime of aggression against Ukraine that could investigate and try the Russian leadership.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: international^#1 Court^#2 tribunal^#3 crime^#4 Ukraine^#5", ">\n\nI think that's a fantastic idea.", ">\n\n“This aggression will not stand, man”\n-The Dude\n -Baerbock", ">\n\nPutin's a nihilist?", ">\n\nNoooo funny business, Putbowski", ">\n\nWe ba-lieve in nassing…", ">\n\nI think Putin feels he is above all that, he is untouchable. IMHO the only hope to end the war is for Putin to commit suicide or be assassinated.", ">\n\nKill Putin, someone else will be put in place by the oligarchs. You won't change too much.", ">\n\nI don't think that would happen. The oligarchs likely don't have the megalomaniac inclination Putin has. I don't see them wanting to continue down the road of attaching Ukraine.\nAlthough In the long run, I don't see Russia as becoming a \"nice\" country.", ">\n\nBaerbock proposes special tribunal to fuck the Russian raw", ">\n\nAnnalena is tough, if she could, she would drag Putin by his ear to Nürnberg herself.", ">\n\nShe’s one of the few German politicians I’m really fond of. It’s no wonder why the Greens are doing so well in the polls", ">\n\nMy family keeps hating on her because she misspoke like once or twice in front of the press. They literally do not have one real point of attack, no valid criticism, so they have to resort to personal attacks. It's sad. She's actually quite impressive.", ">\n\nPlagiarized her book? Faked her resume? Spouse became a lobbyist? I mean, she joins a long list of German politicians in these, but she’s not exactly unbefleckt.", ">\n\nWhy stop with Russian leadership? Going after everyone involved in Russian military, logistics, and State media disinformation may have serious affects on there mobilization capacity.", ">\n\nQuestion. What actual crime can they charge Russian State Media personalities with?\nThe West cant find the legal means to deal with sources of misinformation in their own countries, I struggle to see how they can deal with sources of misinformation in another country?", ">\n\nPropaganda organs have been prosecuted as accessory for crimes against humanity in the past.\nThis is actually what the Nuremberg trials were about: how can you proescute a country based on laws that were LEGAL in said country? By which authority do you judge?\nThis is how human rights were even established: laws universial to every human, regardless of national laws. Human laws trump national laws, regardless of where or if that country is not even a signatory to any human rights convention (since there weren't any at the end of WW2).\nAnd this is ALSO why most of the EU has \"anti hate-speech\" laws as they are considered a human rights violation. Or at least as \"preparing the way to make human rights violations acceptable\".", ">\n\nI can see him sitting on a stool without handles to hold on to, in a little glascage, alone, and outside all the people he have singlehanded made widows, childless, fatherless, motherless, quietly starring at him while they each poor a little bottle of water into a hole that slowly fill the cage, staring him right in his scared little face without anyone there to help him, no need for a tribunal...", ">\n\nI hate this kind of talk. due process and a permanent, wide open public record of everything he's responsible for is the way. \nthen Germany can reactivate Spandau for him.", ">\n\nIt's very disturbing how some comments on Reddit really read like some sociopathic behavior. It's not the first time someone promotes torture here.", ">\n\n\nman who lived by the sword is proposed to die by the sword\nNooooo, not the heckin' human rightserinooooos", ">\n\nThat's the point, we need to stay better than those we condemned otherwise we're just hypocrites.", ">\n\nIf that was true, the penalty for forcible confinement couldn't be imprisonment.", ">\n\nThis is a BS idea because “we” will never be able to imprison Putin. He will either be overthrown and die by Russian hands or he will die in Russia as president or with cover from some next dictator.\nGermany needs to stop talking about tribunals and start sending tanks to Ukraine already.Focus on how you can help the Ukrainian people now , don’t offer some utopian solution that has no basis in reality.", ">\n\nIMO there’s a nonzero chance a new Russian leader might hand Putin over to get into the West‘s good graces.", ">\n\nWho might that new leader be? Anyone who has the power to force a change is just as culpable. There is no central opposition to unite and lead the masses so any popular revolt will be picked apart bit by bit.", ">\n\nHey, I never said anything about making actual changes!\nHonestly though: No clue. It's an incredibly unlikely scenario anyways.", ">\n\nPutins gonna get fucked baerbock.", ">\n\nSuch measures are probably counterproductive because it will just make it less likely than Putin will give up and instead will fight to the bitter end.\nOf course such charges could also be negotiated away in order to try to get Putin to give up. Basically if he quits he can go into exile.", ">\n\nWhere was this proposal when the Bush administration was invading Iraq?", ">\n\nNo one complains when the Power Rangers destroys the aliens with the Megazord. Good guys get a free pass", ">\n\nIs Germany going to go into Russia and bring these people to justice?\nThe answer is no. This is just (empty) political theatre.", ">\n\nGermany going into Russia is probably the only way Putin could actually still win this war", ">\n\nFinally, someone grew a pair!", ">\n\nIf you didt noticed putin doesn give a fuck", ">\n\nRussia is still one of the Great Powers. Nobody will go to arrest him without taking a nuke to the face.", ">\n\nHuh? It's a regional power at best.", ">\n\nWhat else are there? The US and China are the only Superpowers. The only Great Powers of Europe that remain are because of their militaries including nukes. It is why Germany is no more a great power, and it had no colonies anymore. The UK has its possessions, so do France, and Russia its Near Abroad. Everyone else may have some armies but not nukes enough and no colonies.", ">\n\nOh now there’s consequences? So before now there were no consequences?", ">\n\nNow if only Germany stopped stalling and blocking others from delivering equipment Ukraine needs to make it happen that would be great.", ">\n\nThat'll show him /s", ">\n\nLOL. You let him get away with Crimea. Let's stop play acting.", ">\n\nMust he?...", ">\n\nCriminal ad hoc tribunals are a legal aberration that are prohited by good reason at a national level by most democratic constitutions.\nIt's time to give the International Criminal Court, that was made to prosecute this kind of thing, actual jurisdiction over the world and a way to effectively enforce their judgements.", ">\n\nThey have Jurisdiction in Ukraine, from a Jurisdictional standpoint it isn't a problem really as Ukraine consented to ICC Jurisdiction.", ">\n\nBut not Russia, even if the country came under new management, I have a hard time believing they would allow this.\nCan see someone pulling an Eichmann on them tho.", ">\n\nBetter give tanks to Ukrainians. If Ukraine loose, forget tribunal. Mean time German FM can do something more useful. For example play golf.", ">\n\nThis aggression will not stand, man!", ">\n\nBy the time the debate rages 100 more lives will be lost and thousands will be left in the freezing weather. The priority should be to to stop this .whatever that takes . It is in no one's interest to continue this war.", ">\n\nAll for it. But while we're at it, can we also work on the backlog? Russia's not the first nation to go on unprovoked killing sprees since WW2. Making absolutely sure any tribunal prosecuting those responsible for committing wars of aggression and expansion to increase spheres of influence is seen as utterly impartial to the entire world has to be a priority here, if the desired effect is to prevent more of these behaviours in the future. Which it must, of course. The task is to establish a rule of law based international order again. It won't work, if what really determines whether you'll get trialled is the size of your military and the aggressiveness of your stance. Might as well not bother then, a lot of effort just to end up where we started, at might makes right.", ">\n\nRussia coming with an \"Hague Invasion Act\" bootleg soon^TM", ">\n\nOmg she is stunningly beautiful", ">\n\nThere should be no way this war ends and Russia isn’t completely isolated from normal world society until change occurs, or the current leadership is prosecuted. Meaning for me anyway, that cannot leave Russian territory without the threat of being arrested in nearly every country.\nUnfortunately the Russian people don’t care enough now to remove Putin and his subordinates from power.", ">\n\nGood!!!", ">\n\nThis is all trump's fault. He's the most recent and successful LIAR there's been. He lied his way through the presidency, treated putin like a god, made fake news and disinformation mainstream and almost stole an election he was blown away in. \nputin watched him and realized he can totally bs his way through anything, even more than he already was.\nnow it's happened in Brazil also. thanks trump for studying hitler so closely.\nOh and Mark Zuckerberg. Social Media is going to destroy society person by person if we don't curb it and govern it. It's like screaming fire in a movie theater with 100 million in the audience.", ">\n\nA dumb idea. He'll have nothing to lose by then. Also, these dicks now go to The Hague.", ">\n\nI personally would like Putin to listen to each relative of victims of war from each side, to know how they feel about war, to show photos of killed relatives, to let them speak what they think about Putin. I really want him to know all this and have time to suffer in his sleep.\nHe lives in his bubble for too long.", ">\n\nDamn! Surprisingly hot for a German politician", ">\n\nFuck yeah! Send that bitch to The Hague", ">\n\nTy..." ]

[ "They can offer Nuremberg. It has the premises ready", ">\n\nWould be truly symbolic, not that there would be any chance to extract Putin and his cronies from Russia, while it still possesses nukes...", ">\n\nThere is certainly a chance. There are 147 million people in the Russian federation. They can throw 147 into the court system. A court system which will give those 147 men the opportunity to defend themselves and to face consequences only for actions which those 147 men are actually guilty of and no more. In exchange Russia gets the opportunity to participate in global civilization and share the freedom and prosperity. If they do not take the offer the Russian people have to languish under the despotism of those same 147 criminals. \nI do not know the odds but they are greater than zero.", ">\n\nI don't mean to shit on your idea because it isn't bad, it's just unrealistic. First off, you know those 147 men would consist of critics of Putin and journalists he was already about to assassinate anyway.\nBut the even bigger issue is the assumption that they would want to participate in this current global civilization. Putin banked all his capital on the \"history is written by the victor\" sentiment, not to mention the shared sentiment with China of forcing their perception on other nations with weaponized hypocrisy.\nPutin will never admit that his invasion failed, or that he committed war crimes or give up land. He wants to fight until the rest of the world is fatigued enough to concede and admit defeat to just end this already.\nAnd while it's definitely a condemnable attitude, he wouldn't stick to this if it weren't normalized in the past. The Crimea has been annexed since 2014, yet it was more convenient for everyone to just agree that \"those aren't Russian army men\" even though of course they were.\nSame with China putting pressure on the West to turn a blind eye on its' many questionable practices.\nYou can't just roll over and allow autocrats to do whatever and then expect them to suddenly respect you.", ">\n\nI meant Putin can be overthrown. The new administration rounds up the former leadership. \n\nYou can't just roll over and allow autocrats to do whatever and then expect them to suddenly respect you.\n\nBut a people can overthrow their autocratic regime and then become a respected nation.", ">\n\nHe can, but if you look at the timeline of the Russian Revolution of 1917 as a timeline, that ain't exactly a quick process either", ">\n\nCall me when they have Putin in custody. \nHe gives zero shits if his top people end up going to prison for war crimes. \nAnd there’s no way the war doesn’t end without:\n\nPutin dead \nPutin negotiating a deal where he never is held personally responsible. \n\nIt’s right in the dictator handbook. If you kill enough people, other countries will offer to give you a pass just to get you to stop.", ">\n\nHes only going to use it as propaganda, like \"evil west wants to judge me for defending mother russia\".", ">\n\nWhile I agree he should be held accountable, what are they going to do? Walk up to the Kremlin with 20 cops knock on the door and arrest him? This is nothing", ">\n\nNo. The Russians will do that.", ">\n\nI’m not 100% sure about that he’s put fear and blind loyalty in the right places", ">\n\nFear yes! Loyalty I'm not so sure. Seems like those most loyal have had some tragic and fatal accidents as of late. Price of failure I guess. But I'm more sure that those that remain are doing so more out of complete fear than anything else. Putin has everyone guessing who is truly loyal that everyone is too afraid to band together with the other fearful to remove him.", ">\n\nNah some of them mf act like golom and vlad is the god damn ring", ">\n\nNuremberg would be a great location.", ">\n\nThis is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 72%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nTHE HAGUE - The international community should establish a special tribunal to bring Russian President Vladimir Putin and his regime to trial over their war of aggression against Ukraine, German Foreign Minister Annalena Baerbock said Monday.\nIn a keynote speech following a visit to the International Criminal Court in The Hague, Baerbock emphasized the need to hold the Russian leadership \"Accountable\" for their invasion, which started almost a year ago.\nTo avoid this impasse, Baerbock said she wanted to form, together with partner countries, \"a special tribunal\" to address the crime of aggression against Ukraine that could investigate and try the Russian leadership.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: international^#1 Court^#2 tribunal^#3 crime^#4 Ukraine^#5", ">\n\nI think that's a fantastic idea.", ">\n\n“This aggression will not stand, man”\n-The Dude\n -Baerbock", ">\n\nPutin's a nihilist?", ">\n\nNoooo funny business, Putbowski", ">\n\nWe ba-lieve in nassing…", ">\n\nI think Putin feels he is above all that, he is untouchable. IMHO the only hope to end the war is for Putin to commit suicide or be assassinated.", ">\n\nKill Putin, someone else will be put in place by the oligarchs. You won't change too much.", ">\n\nI don't think that would happen. The oligarchs likely don't have the megalomaniac inclination Putin has. I don't see them wanting to continue down the road of attaching Ukraine.\nAlthough In the long run, I don't see Russia as becoming a \"nice\" country.", ">\n\nBaerbock proposes special tribunal to fuck the Russian raw", ">\n\nAnnalena is tough, if she could, she would drag Putin by his ear to Nürnberg herself.", ">\n\nShe’s one of the few German politicians I’m really fond of. It’s no wonder why the Greens are doing so well in the polls", ">\n\nMy family keeps hating on her because she misspoke like once or twice in front of the press. They literally do not have one real point of attack, no valid criticism, so they have to resort to personal attacks. It's sad. She's actually quite impressive.", ">\n\nPlagiarized her book? Faked her resume? Spouse became a lobbyist? I mean, she joins a long list of German politicians in these, but she’s not exactly unbefleckt.", ">\n\nWhy stop with Russian leadership? Going after everyone involved in Russian military, logistics, and State media disinformation may have serious affects on there mobilization capacity.", ">\n\nQuestion. What actual crime can they charge Russian State Media personalities with?\nThe West cant find the legal means to deal with sources of misinformation in their own countries, I struggle to see how they can deal with sources of misinformation in another country?", ">\n\nPropaganda organs have been prosecuted as accessory for crimes against humanity in the past.\nThis is actually what the Nuremberg trials were about: how can you proescute a country based on laws that were LEGAL in said country? By which authority do you judge?\nThis is how human rights were even established: laws universial to every human, regardless of national laws. Human laws trump national laws, regardless of where or if that country is not even a signatory to any human rights convention (since there weren't any at the end of WW2).\nAnd this is ALSO why most of the EU has \"anti hate-speech\" laws as they are considered a human rights violation. Or at least as \"preparing the way to make human rights violations acceptable\".", ">\n\nI can see him sitting on a stool without handles to hold on to, in a little glascage, alone, and outside all the people he have singlehanded made widows, childless, fatherless, motherless, quietly starring at him while they each poor a little bottle of water into a hole that slowly fill the cage, staring him right in his scared little face without anyone there to help him, no need for a tribunal...", ">\n\nI hate this kind of talk. due process and a permanent, wide open public record of everything he's responsible for is the way. \nthen Germany can reactivate Spandau for him.", ">\n\nIt's very disturbing how some comments on Reddit really read like some sociopathic behavior. It's not the first time someone promotes torture here.", ">\n\n\nman who lived by the sword is proposed to die by the sword\nNooooo, not the heckin' human rightserinooooos", ">\n\nThat's the point, we need to stay better than those we condemned otherwise we're just hypocrites.", ">\n\nIf that was true, the penalty for forcible confinement couldn't be imprisonment.", ">\n\nThis is a BS idea because “we” will never be able to imprison Putin. He will either be overthrown and die by Russian hands or he will die in Russia as president or with cover from some next dictator.\nGermany needs to stop talking about tribunals and start sending tanks to Ukraine already.Focus on how you can help the Ukrainian people now , don’t offer some utopian solution that has no basis in reality.", ">\n\nIMO there’s a nonzero chance a new Russian leader might hand Putin over to get into the West‘s good graces.", ">\n\nWho might that new leader be? Anyone who has the power to force a change is just as culpable. There is no central opposition to unite and lead the masses so any popular revolt will be picked apart bit by bit.", ">\n\nHey, I never said anything about making actual changes!\nHonestly though: No clue. It's an incredibly unlikely scenario anyways.", ">\n\nPutins gonna get fucked baerbock.", ">\n\nSuch measures are probably counterproductive because it will just make it less likely than Putin will give up and instead will fight to the bitter end.\nOf course such charges could also be negotiated away in order to try to get Putin to give up. Basically if he quits he can go into exile.", ">\n\nWhere was this proposal when the Bush administration was invading Iraq?", ">\n\nNo one complains when the Power Rangers destroys the aliens with the Megazord. Good guys get a free pass", ">\n\nIs Germany going to go into Russia and bring these people to justice?\nThe answer is no. This is just (empty) political theatre.", ">\n\nGermany going into Russia is probably the only way Putin could actually still win this war", ">\n\nFinally, someone grew a pair!", ">\n\nIf you didt noticed putin doesn give a fuck", ">\n\nRussia is still one of the Great Powers. Nobody will go to arrest him without taking a nuke to the face.", ">\n\nHuh? It's a regional power at best.", ">\n\nWhat else are there? The US and China are the only Superpowers. The only Great Powers of Europe that remain are because of their militaries including nukes. It is why Germany is no more a great power, and it had no colonies anymore. The UK has its possessions, so do France, and Russia its Near Abroad. Everyone else may have some armies but not nukes enough and no colonies.", ">\n\nOh now there’s consequences? So before now there were no consequences?", ">\n\nNow if only Germany stopped stalling and blocking others from delivering equipment Ukraine needs to make it happen that would be great.", ">\n\nThat'll show him /s", ">\n\nLOL. You let him get away with Crimea. Let's stop play acting.", ">\n\nMust he?...", ">\n\nCriminal ad hoc tribunals are a legal aberration that are prohited by good reason at a national level by most democratic constitutions.\nIt's time to give the International Criminal Court, that was made to prosecute this kind of thing, actual jurisdiction over the world and a way to effectively enforce their judgements.", ">\n\nThey have Jurisdiction in Ukraine, from a Jurisdictional standpoint it isn't a problem really as Ukraine consented to ICC Jurisdiction.", ">\n\nBut not Russia, even if the country came under new management, I have a hard time believing they would allow this.\nCan see someone pulling an Eichmann on them tho.", ">\n\nBetter give tanks to Ukrainians. If Ukraine loose, forget tribunal. Mean time German FM can do something more useful. For example play golf.", ">\n\nThis aggression will not stand, man!", ">\n\nBy the time the debate rages 100 more lives will be lost and thousands will be left in the freezing weather. The priority should be to to stop this .whatever that takes . It is in no one's interest to continue this war.", ">\n\nAll for it. But while we're at it, can we also work on the backlog? Russia's not the first nation to go on unprovoked killing sprees since WW2. Making absolutely sure any tribunal prosecuting those responsible for committing wars of aggression and expansion to increase spheres of influence is seen as utterly impartial to the entire world has to be a priority here, if the desired effect is to prevent more of these behaviours in the future. Which it must, of course. The task is to establish a rule of law based international order again. It won't work, if what really determines whether you'll get trialled is the size of your military and the aggressiveness of your stance. Might as well not bother then, a lot of effort just to end up where we started, at might makes right.", ">\n\nRussia coming with an \"Hague Invasion Act\" bootleg soon^TM", ">\n\nOmg she is stunningly beautiful", ">\n\nThere should be no way this war ends and Russia isn’t completely isolated from normal world society until change occurs, or the current leadership is prosecuted. Meaning for me anyway, that cannot leave Russian territory without the threat of being arrested in nearly every country.\nUnfortunately the Russian people don’t care enough now to remove Putin and his subordinates from power.", ">\n\nGood!!!", ">\n\nThis is all trump's fault. He's the most recent and successful LIAR there's been. He lied his way through the presidency, treated putin like a god, made fake news and disinformation mainstream and almost stole an election he was blown away in. \nputin watched him and realized he can totally bs his way through anything, even more than he already was.\nnow it's happened in Brazil also. thanks trump for studying hitler so closely.\nOh and Mark Zuckerberg. Social Media is going to destroy society person by person if we don't curb it and govern it. It's like screaming fire in a movie theater with 100 million in the audience.", ">\n\nA dumb idea. He'll have nothing to lose by then. Also, these dicks now go to The Hague.", ">\n\nI personally would like Putin to listen to each relative of victims of war from each side, to know how they feel about war, to show photos of killed relatives, to let them speak what they think about Putin. I really want him to know all this and have time to suffer in his sleep.\nHe lives in his bubble for too long.", ">\n\nDamn! Surprisingly hot for a German politician", ">\n\nFuck yeah! Send that bitch to The Hague", ">\n\nTy...", ">\n\nWhichever country in Europe holds the trials will have to bring back the death penalty and hanging..." ]

[ "They can offer Nuremberg. It has the premises ready", ">\n\nWould be truly symbolic, not that there would be any chance to extract Putin and his cronies from Russia, while it still possesses nukes...", ">\n\nThere is certainly a chance. There are 147 million people in the Russian federation. They can throw 147 into the court system. A court system which will give those 147 men the opportunity to defend themselves and to face consequences only for actions which those 147 men are actually guilty of and no more. In exchange Russia gets the opportunity to participate in global civilization and share the freedom and prosperity. If they do not take the offer the Russian people have to languish under the despotism of those same 147 criminals. \nI do not know the odds but they are greater than zero.", ">\n\nI don't mean to shit on your idea because it isn't bad, it's just unrealistic. First off, you know those 147 men would consist of critics of Putin and journalists he was already about to assassinate anyway.\nBut the even bigger issue is the assumption that they would want to participate in this current global civilization. Putin banked all his capital on the \"history is written by the victor\" sentiment, not to mention the shared sentiment with China of forcing their perception on other nations with weaponized hypocrisy.\nPutin will never admit that his invasion failed, or that he committed war crimes or give up land. He wants to fight until the rest of the world is fatigued enough to concede and admit defeat to just end this already.\nAnd while it's definitely a condemnable attitude, he wouldn't stick to this if it weren't normalized in the past. The Crimea has been annexed since 2014, yet it was more convenient for everyone to just agree that \"those aren't Russian army men\" even though of course they were.\nSame with China putting pressure on the West to turn a blind eye on its' many questionable practices.\nYou can't just roll over and allow autocrats to do whatever and then expect them to suddenly respect you.", ">\n\nI meant Putin can be overthrown. The new administration rounds up the former leadership. \n\nYou can't just roll over and allow autocrats to do whatever and then expect them to suddenly respect you.\n\nBut a people can overthrow their autocratic regime and then become a respected nation.", ">\n\nHe can, but if you look at the timeline of the Russian Revolution of 1917 as a timeline, that ain't exactly a quick process either", ">\n\nCall me when they have Putin in custody. \nHe gives zero shits if his top people end up going to prison for war crimes. \nAnd there’s no way the war doesn’t end without:\n\nPutin dead \nPutin negotiating a deal where he never is held personally responsible. \n\nIt’s right in the dictator handbook. If you kill enough people, other countries will offer to give you a pass just to get you to stop.", ">\n\nHes only going to use it as propaganda, like \"evil west wants to judge me for defending mother russia\".", ">\n\nWhile I agree he should be held accountable, what are they going to do? Walk up to the Kremlin with 20 cops knock on the door and arrest him? This is nothing", ">\n\nNo. The Russians will do that.", ">\n\nI’m not 100% sure about that he’s put fear and blind loyalty in the right places", ">\n\nFear yes! Loyalty I'm not so sure. Seems like those most loyal have had some tragic and fatal accidents as of late. Price of failure I guess. But I'm more sure that those that remain are doing so more out of complete fear than anything else. Putin has everyone guessing who is truly loyal that everyone is too afraid to band together with the other fearful to remove him.", ">\n\nNah some of them mf act like golom and vlad is the god damn ring", ">\n\nNuremberg would be a great location.", ">\n\nThis is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 72%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nTHE HAGUE - The international community should establish a special tribunal to bring Russian President Vladimir Putin and his regime to trial over their war of aggression against Ukraine, German Foreign Minister Annalena Baerbock said Monday.\nIn a keynote speech following a visit to the International Criminal Court in The Hague, Baerbock emphasized the need to hold the Russian leadership \"Accountable\" for their invasion, which started almost a year ago.\nTo avoid this impasse, Baerbock said she wanted to form, together with partner countries, \"a special tribunal\" to address the crime of aggression against Ukraine that could investigate and try the Russian leadership.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: international^#1 Court^#2 tribunal^#3 crime^#4 Ukraine^#5", ">\n\nI think that's a fantastic idea.", ">\n\n“This aggression will not stand, man”\n-The Dude\n -Baerbock", ">\n\nPutin's a nihilist?", ">\n\nNoooo funny business, Putbowski", ">\n\nWe ba-lieve in nassing…", ">\n\nI think Putin feels he is above all that, he is untouchable. IMHO the only hope to end the war is for Putin to commit suicide or be assassinated.", ">\n\nKill Putin, someone else will be put in place by the oligarchs. You won't change too much.", ">\n\nI don't think that would happen. The oligarchs likely don't have the megalomaniac inclination Putin has. I don't see them wanting to continue down the road of attaching Ukraine.\nAlthough In the long run, I don't see Russia as becoming a \"nice\" country.", ">\n\nBaerbock proposes special tribunal to fuck the Russian raw", ">\n\nAnnalena is tough, if she could, she would drag Putin by his ear to Nürnberg herself.", ">\n\nShe’s one of the few German politicians I’m really fond of. It’s no wonder why the Greens are doing so well in the polls", ">\n\nMy family keeps hating on her because she misspoke like once or twice in front of the press. They literally do not have one real point of attack, no valid criticism, so they have to resort to personal attacks. It's sad. She's actually quite impressive.", ">\n\nPlagiarized her book? Faked her resume? Spouse became a lobbyist? I mean, she joins a long list of German politicians in these, but she’s not exactly unbefleckt.", ">\n\nWhy stop with Russian leadership? Going after everyone involved in Russian military, logistics, and State media disinformation may have serious affects on there mobilization capacity.", ">\n\nQuestion. What actual crime can they charge Russian State Media personalities with?\nThe West cant find the legal means to deal with sources of misinformation in their own countries, I struggle to see how they can deal with sources of misinformation in another country?", ">\n\nPropaganda organs have been prosecuted as accessory for crimes against humanity in the past.\nThis is actually what the Nuremberg trials were about: how can you proescute a country based on laws that were LEGAL in said country? By which authority do you judge?\nThis is how human rights were even established: laws universial to every human, regardless of national laws. Human laws trump national laws, regardless of where or if that country is not even a signatory to any human rights convention (since there weren't any at the end of WW2).\nAnd this is ALSO why most of the EU has \"anti hate-speech\" laws as they are considered a human rights violation. Or at least as \"preparing the way to make human rights violations acceptable\".", ">\n\nI can see him sitting on a stool without handles to hold on to, in a little glascage, alone, and outside all the people he have singlehanded made widows, childless, fatherless, motherless, quietly starring at him while they each poor a little bottle of water into a hole that slowly fill the cage, staring him right in his scared little face without anyone there to help him, no need for a tribunal...", ">\n\nI hate this kind of talk. due process and a permanent, wide open public record of everything he's responsible for is the way. \nthen Germany can reactivate Spandau for him.", ">\n\nIt's very disturbing how some comments on Reddit really read like some sociopathic behavior. It's not the first time someone promotes torture here.", ">\n\n\nman who lived by the sword is proposed to die by the sword\nNooooo, not the heckin' human rightserinooooos", ">\n\nThat's the point, we need to stay better than those we condemned otherwise we're just hypocrites.", ">\n\nIf that was true, the penalty for forcible confinement couldn't be imprisonment.", ">\n\nThis is a BS idea because “we” will never be able to imprison Putin. He will either be overthrown and die by Russian hands or he will die in Russia as president or with cover from some next dictator.\nGermany needs to stop talking about tribunals and start sending tanks to Ukraine already.Focus on how you can help the Ukrainian people now , don’t offer some utopian solution that has no basis in reality.", ">\n\nIMO there’s a nonzero chance a new Russian leader might hand Putin over to get into the West‘s good graces.", ">\n\nWho might that new leader be? Anyone who has the power to force a change is just as culpable. There is no central opposition to unite and lead the masses so any popular revolt will be picked apart bit by bit.", ">\n\nHey, I never said anything about making actual changes!\nHonestly though: No clue. It's an incredibly unlikely scenario anyways.", ">\n\nPutins gonna get fucked baerbock.", ">\n\nSuch measures are probably counterproductive because it will just make it less likely than Putin will give up and instead will fight to the bitter end.\nOf course such charges could also be negotiated away in order to try to get Putin to give up. Basically if he quits he can go into exile.", ">\n\nWhere was this proposal when the Bush administration was invading Iraq?", ">\n\nNo one complains when the Power Rangers destroys the aliens with the Megazord. Good guys get a free pass", ">\n\nIs Germany going to go into Russia and bring these people to justice?\nThe answer is no. This is just (empty) political theatre.", ">\n\nGermany going into Russia is probably the only way Putin could actually still win this war", ">\n\nFinally, someone grew a pair!", ">\n\nIf you didt noticed putin doesn give a fuck", ">\n\nRussia is still one of the Great Powers. Nobody will go to arrest him without taking a nuke to the face.", ">\n\nHuh? It's a regional power at best.", ">\n\nWhat else are there? The US and China are the only Superpowers. The only Great Powers of Europe that remain are because of their militaries including nukes. It is why Germany is no more a great power, and it had no colonies anymore. The UK has its possessions, so do France, and Russia its Near Abroad. Everyone else may have some armies but not nukes enough and no colonies.", ">\n\nOh now there’s consequences? So before now there were no consequences?", ">\n\nNow if only Germany stopped stalling and blocking others from delivering equipment Ukraine needs to make it happen that would be great.", ">\n\nThat'll show him /s", ">\n\nLOL. You let him get away with Crimea. Let's stop play acting.", ">\n\nMust he?...", ">\n\nCriminal ad hoc tribunals are a legal aberration that are prohited by good reason at a national level by most democratic constitutions.\nIt's time to give the International Criminal Court, that was made to prosecute this kind of thing, actual jurisdiction over the world and a way to effectively enforce their judgements.", ">\n\nThey have Jurisdiction in Ukraine, from a Jurisdictional standpoint it isn't a problem really as Ukraine consented to ICC Jurisdiction.", ">\n\nBut not Russia, even if the country came under new management, I have a hard time believing they would allow this.\nCan see someone pulling an Eichmann on them tho.", ">\n\nBetter give tanks to Ukrainians. If Ukraine loose, forget tribunal. Mean time German FM can do something more useful. For example play golf.", ">\n\nThis aggression will not stand, man!", ">\n\nBy the time the debate rages 100 more lives will be lost and thousands will be left in the freezing weather. The priority should be to to stop this .whatever that takes . It is in no one's interest to continue this war.", ">\n\nAll for it. But while we're at it, can we also work on the backlog? Russia's not the first nation to go on unprovoked killing sprees since WW2. Making absolutely sure any tribunal prosecuting those responsible for committing wars of aggression and expansion to increase spheres of influence is seen as utterly impartial to the entire world has to be a priority here, if the desired effect is to prevent more of these behaviours in the future. Which it must, of course. The task is to establish a rule of law based international order again. It won't work, if what really determines whether you'll get trialled is the size of your military and the aggressiveness of your stance. Might as well not bother then, a lot of effort just to end up where we started, at might makes right.", ">\n\nRussia coming with an \"Hague Invasion Act\" bootleg soon^TM", ">\n\nOmg she is stunningly beautiful", ">\n\nThere should be no way this war ends and Russia isn’t completely isolated from normal world society until change occurs, or the current leadership is prosecuted. Meaning for me anyway, that cannot leave Russian territory without the threat of being arrested in nearly every country.\nUnfortunately the Russian people don’t care enough now to remove Putin and his subordinates from power.", ">\n\nGood!!!", ">\n\nThis is all trump's fault. He's the most recent and successful LIAR there's been. He lied his way through the presidency, treated putin like a god, made fake news and disinformation mainstream and almost stole an election he was blown away in. \nputin watched him and realized he can totally bs his way through anything, even more than he already was.\nnow it's happened in Brazil also. thanks trump for studying hitler so closely.\nOh and Mark Zuckerberg. Social Media is going to destroy society person by person if we don't curb it and govern it. It's like screaming fire in a movie theater with 100 million in the audience.", ">\n\nA dumb idea. He'll have nothing to lose by then. Also, these dicks now go to The Hague.", ">\n\nI personally would like Putin to listen to each relative of victims of war from each side, to know how they feel about war, to show photos of killed relatives, to let them speak what they think about Putin. I really want him to know all this and have time to suffer in his sleep.\nHe lives in his bubble for too long.", ">\n\nDamn! Surprisingly hot for a German politician", ">\n\nFuck yeah! Send that bitch to The Hague", ">\n\nTy...", ">\n\nWhichever country in Europe holds the trials will have to bring back the death penalty and hanging...", ">\n\nOh grow up. This is nothing but inept posturing." ]

[ "They can offer Nuremberg. It has the premises ready", ">\n\nWould be truly symbolic, not that there would be any chance to extract Putin and his cronies from Russia, while it still possesses nukes...", ">\n\nThere is certainly a chance. There are 147 million people in the Russian federation. They can throw 147 into the court system. A court system which will give those 147 men the opportunity to defend themselves and to face consequences only for actions which those 147 men are actually guilty of and no more. In exchange Russia gets the opportunity to participate in global civilization and share the freedom and prosperity. If they do not take the offer the Russian people have to languish under the despotism of those same 147 criminals. \nI do not know the odds but they are greater than zero.", ">\n\nI don't mean to shit on your idea because it isn't bad, it's just unrealistic. First off, you know those 147 men would consist of critics of Putin and journalists he was already about to assassinate anyway.\nBut the even bigger issue is the assumption that they would want to participate in this current global civilization. Putin banked all his capital on the \"history is written by the victor\" sentiment, not to mention the shared sentiment with China of forcing their perception on other nations with weaponized hypocrisy.\nPutin will never admit that his invasion failed, or that he committed war crimes or give up land. He wants to fight until the rest of the world is fatigued enough to concede and admit defeat to just end this already.\nAnd while it's definitely a condemnable attitude, he wouldn't stick to this if it weren't normalized in the past. The Crimea has been annexed since 2014, yet it was more convenient for everyone to just agree that \"those aren't Russian army men\" even though of course they were.\nSame with China putting pressure on the West to turn a blind eye on its' many questionable practices.\nYou can't just roll over and allow autocrats to do whatever and then expect them to suddenly respect you.", ">\n\nI meant Putin can be overthrown. The new administration rounds up the former leadership. \n\nYou can't just roll over and allow autocrats to do whatever and then expect them to suddenly respect you.\n\nBut a people can overthrow their autocratic regime and then become a respected nation.", ">\n\nHe can, but if you look at the timeline of the Russian Revolution of 1917 as a timeline, that ain't exactly a quick process either", ">\n\nCall me when they have Putin in custody. \nHe gives zero shits if his top people end up going to prison for war crimes. \nAnd there’s no way the war doesn’t end without:\n\nPutin dead \nPutin negotiating a deal where he never is held personally responsible. \n\nIt’s right in the dictator handbook. If you kill enough people, other countries will offer to give you a pass just to get you to stop.", ">\n\nHes only going to use it as propaganda, like \"evil west wants to judge me for defending mother russia\".", ">\n\nWhile I agree he should be held accountable, what are they going to do? Walk up to the Kremlin with 20 cops knock on the door and arrest him? This is nothing", ">\n\nNo. The Russians will do that.", ">\n\nI’m not 100% sure about that he’s put fear and blind loyalty in the right places", ">\n\nFear yes! Loyalty I'm not so sure. Seems like those most loyal have had some tragic and fatal accidents as of late. Price of failure I guess. But I'm more sure that those that remain are doing so more out of complete fear than anything else. Putin has everyone guessing who is truly loyal that everyone is too afraid to band together with the other fearful to remove him.", ">\n\nNah some of them mf act like golom and vlad is the god damn ring", ">\n\nNuremberg would be a great location.", ">\n\nThis is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 72%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nTHE HAGUE - The international community should establish a special tribunal to bring Russian President Vladimir Putin and his regime to trial over their war of aggression against Ukraine, German Foreign Minister Annalena Baerbock said Monday.\nIn a keynote speech following a visit to the International Criminal Court in The Hague, Baerbock emphasized the need to hold the Russian leadership \"Accountable\" for their invasion, which started almost a year ago.\nTo avoid this impasse, Baerbock said she wanted to form, together with partner countries, \"a special tribunal\" to address the crime of aggression against Ukraine that could investigate and try the Russian leadership.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: international^#1 Court^#2 tribunal^#3 crime^#4 Ukraine^#5", ">\n\nI think that's a fantastic idea.", ">\n\n“This aggression will not stand, man”\n-The Dude\n -Baerbock", ">\n\nPutin's a nihilist?", ">\n\nNoooo funny business, Putbowski", ">\n\nWe ba-lieve in nassing…", ">\n\nI think Putin feels he is above all that, he is untouchable. IMHO the only hope to end the war is for Putin to commit suicide or be assassinated.", ">\n\nKill Putin, someone else will be put in place by the oligarchs. You won't change too much.", ">\n\nI don't think that would happen. The oligarchs likely don't have the megalomaniac inclination Putin has. I don't see them wanting to continue down the road of attaching Ukraine.\nAlthough In the long run, I don't see Russia as becoming a \"nice\" country.", ">\n\nBaerbock proposes special tribunal to fuck the Russian raw", ">\n\nAnnalena is tough, if she could, she would drag Putin by his ear to Nürnberg herself.", ">\n\nShe’s one of the few German politicians I’m really fond of. It’s no wonder why the Greens are doing so well in the polls", ">\n\nMy family keeps hating on her because she misspoke like once or twice in front of the press. They literally do not have one real point of attack, no valid criticism, so they have to resort to personal attacks. It's sad. She's actually quite impressive.", ">\n\nPlagiarized her book? Faked her resume? Spouse became a lobbyist? I mean, she joins a long list of German politicians in these, but she’s not exactly unbefleckt.", ">\n\nWhy stop with Russian leadership? Going after everyone involved in Russian military, logistics, and State media disinformation may have serious affects on there mobilization capacity.", ">\n\nQuestion. What actual crime can they charge Russian State Media personalities with?\nThe West cant find the legal means to deal with sources of misinformation in their own countries, I struggle to see how they can deal with sources of misinformation in another country?", ">\n\nPropaganda organs have been prosecuted as accessory for crimes against humanity in the past.\nThis is actually what the Nuremberg trials were about: how can you proescute a country based on laws that were LEGAL in said country? By which authority do you judge?\nThis is how human rights were even established: laws universial to every human, regardless of national laws. Human laws trump national laws, regardless of where or if that country is not even a signatory to any human rights convention (since there weren't any at the end of WW2).\nAnd this is ALSO why most of the EU has \"anti hate-speech\" laws as they are considered a human rights violation. Or at least as \"preparing the way to make human rights violations acceptable\".", ">\n\nI can see him sitting on a stool without handles to hold on to, in a little glascage, alone, and outside all the people he have singlehanded made widows, childless, fatherless, motherless, quietly starring at him while they each poor a little bottle of water into a hole that slowly fill the cage, staring him right in his scared little face without anyone there to help him, no need for a tribunal...", ">\n\nI hate this kind of talk. due process and a permanent, wide open public record of everything he's responsible for is the way. \nthen Germany can reactivate Spandau for him.", ">\n\nIt's very disturbing how some comments on Reddit really read like some sociopathic behavior. It's not the first time someone promotes torture here.", ">\n\n\nman who lived by the sword is proposed to die by the sword\nNooooo, not the heckin' human rightserinooooos", ">\n\nThat's the point, we need to stay better than those we condemned otherwise we're just hypocrites.", ">\n\nIf that was true, the penalty for forcible confinement couldn't be imprisonment.", ">\n\nThis is a BS idea because “we” will never be able to imprison Putin. He will either be overthrown and die by Russian hands or he will die in Russia as president or with cover from some next dictator.\nGermany needs to stop talking about tribunals and start sending tanks to Ukraine already.Focus on how you can help the Ukrainian people now , don’t offer some utopian solution that has no basis in reality.", ">\n\nIMO there’s a nonzero chance a new Russian leader might hand Putin over to get into the West‘s good graces.", ">\n\nWho might that new leader be? Anyone who has the power to force a change is just as culpable. There is no central opposition to unite and lead the masses so any popular revolt will be picked apart bit by bit.", ">\n\nHey, I never said anything about making actual changes!\nHonestly though: No clue. It's an incredibly unlikely scenario anyways.", ">\n\nPutins gonna get fucked baerbock.", ">\n\nSuch measures are probably counterproductive because it will just make it less likely than Putin will give up and instead will fight to the bitter end.\nOf course such charges could also be negotiated away in order to try to get Putin to give up. Basically if he quits he can go into exile.", ">\n\nWhere was this proposal when the Bush administration was invading Iraq?", ">\n\nNo one complains when the Power Rangers destroys the aliens with the Megazord. Good guys get a free pass", ">\n\nIs Germany going to go into Russia and bring these people to justice?\nThe answer is no. This is just (empty) political theatre.", ">\n\nGermany going into Russia is probably the only way Putin could actually still win this war", ">\n\nFinally, someone grew a pair!", ">\n\nIf you didt noticed putin doesn give a fuck", ">\n\nRussia is still one of the Great Powers. Nobody will go to arrest him without taking a nuke to the face.", ">\n\nHuh? It's a regional power at best.", ">\n\nWhat else are there? The US and China are the only Superpowers. The only Great Powers of Europe that remain are because of their militaries including nukes. It is why Germany is no more a great power, and it had no colonies anymore. The UK has its possessions, so do France, and Russia its Near Abroad. Everyone else may have some armies but not nukes enough and no colonies.", ">\n\nOh now there’s consequences? So before now there were no consequences?", ">\n\nNow if only Germany stopped stalling and blocking others from delivering equipment Ukraine needs to make it happen that would be great.", ">\n\nThat'll show him /s", ">\n\nLOL. You let him get away with Crimea. Let's stop play acting.", ">\n\nMust he?...", ">\n\nCriminal ad hoc tribunals are a legal aberration that are prohited by good reason at a national level by most democratic constitutions.\nIt's time to give the International Criminal Court, that was made to prosecute this kind of thing, actual jurisdiction over the world and a way to effectively enforce their judgements.", ">\n\nThey have Jurisdiction in Ukraine, from a Jurisdictional standpoint it isn't a problem really as Ukraine consented to ICC Jurisdiction.", ">\n\nBut not Russia, even if the country came under new management, I have a hard time believing they would allow this.\nCan see someone pulling an Eichmann on them tho.", ">\n\nBetter give tanks to Ukrainians. If Ukraine loose, forget tribunal. Mean time German FM can do something more useful. For example play golf.", ">\n\nThis aggression will not stand, man!", ">\n\nBy the time the debate rages 100 more lives will be lost and thousands will be left in the freezing weather. The priority should be to to stop this .whatever that takes . It is in no one's interest to continue this war.", ">\n\nAll for it. But while we're at it, can we also work on the backlog? Russia's not the first nation to go on unprovoked killing sprees since WW2. Making absolutely sure any tribunal prosecuting those responsible for committing wars of aggression and expansion to increase spheres of influence is seen as utterly impartial to the entire world has to be a priority here, if the desired effect is to prevent more of these behaviours in the future. Which it must, of course. The task is to establish a rule of law based international order again. It won't work, if what really determines whether you'll get trialled is the size of your military and the aggressiveness of your stance. Might as well not bother then, a lot of effort just to end up where we started, at might makes right.", ">\n\nRussia coming with an \"Hague Invasion Act\" bootleg soon^TM", ">\n\nOmg she is stunningly beautiful", ">\n\nThere should be no way this war ends and Russia isn’t completely isolated from normal world society until change occurs, or the current leadership is prosecuted. Meaning for me anyway, that cannot leave Russian territory without the threat of being arrested in nearly every country.\nUnfortunately the Russian people don’t care enough now to remove Putin and his subordinates from power.", ">\n\nGood!!!", ">\n\nThis is all trump's fault. He's the most recent and successful LIAR there's been. He lied his way through the presidency, treated putin like a god, made fake news and disinformation mainstream and almost stole an election he was blown away in. \nputin watched him and realized he can totally bs his way through anything, even more than he already was.\nnow it's happened in Brazil also. thanks trump for studying hitler so closely.\nOh and Mark Zuckerberg. Social Media is going to destroy society person by person if we don't curb it and govern it. It's like screaming fire in a movie theater with 100 million in the audience.", ">\n\nA dumb idea. He'll have nothing to lose by then. Also, these dicks now go to The Hague.", ">\n\nI personally would like Putin to listen to each relative of victims of war from each side, to know how they feel about war, to show photos of killed relatives, to let them speak what they think about Putin. I really want him to know all this and have time to suffer in his sleep.\nHe lives in his bubble for too long.", ">\n\nDamn! Surprisingly hot for a German politician", ">\n\nFuck yeah! Send that bitch to The Hague", ">\n\nTy...", ">\n\nWhichever country in Europe holds the trials will have to bring back the death penalty and hanging...", ">\n\nOh grow up. This is nothing but inept posturing.", ">\n\nBut they will have to roll in with the goon squad and capture him, if they can even find him. It will be a two-way massacre. Maybe an elite clandestine military special forces-type team could infiltrate the country and nab him?" ]

[ "They can offer Nuremberg. It has the premises ready", ">\n\nWould be truly symbolic, not that there would be any chance to extract Putin and his cronies from Russia, while it still possesses nukes...", ">\n\nThere is certainly a chance. There are 147 million people in the Russian federation. They can throw 147 into the court system. A court system which will give those 147 men the opportunity to defend themselves and to face consequences only for actions which those 147 men are actually guilty of and no more. In exchange Russia gets the opportunity to participate in global civilization and share the freedom and prosperity. If they do not take the offer the Russian people have to languish under the despotism of those same 147 criminals. \nI do not know the odds but they are greater than zero.", ">\n\nI don't mean to shit on your idea because it isn't bad, it's just unrealistic. First off, you know those 147 men would consist of critics of Putin and journalists he was already about to assassinate anyway.\nBut the even bigger issue is the assumption that they would want to participate in this current global civilization. Putin banked all his capital on the \"history is written by the victor\" sentiment, not to mention the shared sentiment with China of forcing their perception on other nations with weaponized hypocrisy.\nPutin will never admit that his invasion failed, or that he committed war crimes or give up land. He wants to fight until the rest of the world is fatigued enough to concede and admit defeat to just end this already.\nAnd while it's definitely a condemnable attitude, he wouldn't stick to this if it weren't normalized in the past. The Crimea has been annexed since 2014, yet it was more convenient for everyone to just agree that \"those aren't Russian army men\" even though of course they were.\nSame with China putting pressure on the West to turn a blind eye on its' many questionable practices.\nYou can't just roll over and allow autocrats to do whatever and then expect them to suddenly respect you.", ">\n\nI meant Putin can be overthrown. The new administration rounds up the former leadership. \n\nYou can't just roll over and allow autocrats to do whatever and then expect them to suddenly respect you.\n\nBut a people can overthrow their autocratic regime and then become a respected nation.", ">\n\nHe can, but if you look at the timeline of the Russian Revolution of 1917 as a timeline, that ain't exactly a quick process either", ">\n\nCall me when they have Putin in custody. \nHe gives zero shits if his top people end up going to prison for war crimes. \nAnd there’s no way the war doesn’t end without:\n\nPutin dead \nPutin negotiating a deal where he never is held personally responsible. \n\nIt’s right in the dictator handbook. If you kill enough people, other countries will offer to give you a pass just to get you to stop.", ">\n\nHes only going to use it as propaganda, like \"evil west wants to judge me for defending mother russia\".", ">\n\nWhile I agree he should be held accountable, what are they going to do? Walk up to the Kremlin with 20 cops knock on the door and arrest him? This is nothing", ">\n\nNo. The Russians will do that.", ">\n\nI’m not 100% sure about that he’s put fear and blind loyalty in the right places", ">\n\nFear yes! Loyalty I'm not so sure. Seems like those most loyal have had some tragic and fatal accidents as of late. Price of failure I guess. But I'm more sure that those that remain are doing so more out of complete fear than anything else. Putin has everyone guessing who is truly loyal that everyone is too afraid to band together with the other fearful to remove him.", ">\n\nNah some of them mf act like golom and vlad is the god damn ring", ">\n\nNuremberg would be a great location.", ">\n\nThis is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 72%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nTHE HAGUE - The international community should establish a special tribunal to bring Russian President Vladimir Putin and his regime to trial over their war of aggression against Ukraine, German Foreign Minister Annalena Baerbock said Monday.\nIn a keynote speech following a visit to the International Criminal Court in The Hague, Baerbock emphasized the need to hold the Russian leadership \"Accountable\" for their invasion, which started almost a year ago.\nTo avoid this impasse, Baerbock said she wanted to form, together with partner countries, \"a special tribunal\" to address the crime of aggression against Ukraine that could investigate and try the Russian leadership.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: international^#1 Court^#2 tribunal^#3 crime^#4 Ukraine^#5", ">\n\nI think that's a fantastic idea.", ">\n\n“This aggression will not stand, man”\n-The Dude\n -Baerbock", ">\n\nPutin's a nihilist?", ">\n\nNoooo funny business, Putbowski", ">\n\nWe ba-lieve in nassing…", ">\n\nI think Putin feels he is above all that, he is untouchable. IMHO the only hope to end the war is for Putin to commit suicide or be assassinated.", ">\n\nKill Putin, someone else will be put in place by the oligarchs. You won't change too much.", ">\n\nI don't think that would happen. The oligarchs likely don't have the megalomaniac inclination Putin has. I don't see them wanting to continue down the road of attaching Ukraine.\nAlthough In the long run, I don't see Russia as becoming a \"nice\" country.", ">\n\nBaerbock proposes special tribunal to fuck the Russian raw", ">\n\nAnnalena is tough, if she could, she would drag Putin by his ear to Nürnberg herself.", ">\n\nShe’s one of the few German politicians I’m really fond of. It’s no wonder why the Greens are doing so well in the polls", ">\n\nMy family keeps hating on her because she misspoke like once or twice in front of the press. They literally do not have one real point of attack, no valid criticism, so they have to resort to personal attacks. It's sad. She's actually quite impressive.", ">\n\nPlagiarized her book? Faked her resume? Spouse became a lobbyist? I mean, she joins a long list of German politicians in these, but she’s not exactly unbefleckt.", ">\n\nWhy stop with Russian leadership? Going after everyone involved in Russian military, logistics, and State media disinformation may have serious affects on there mobilization capacity.", ">\n\nQuestion. What actual crime can they charge Russian State Media personalities with?\nThe West cant find the legal means to deal with sources of misinformation in their own countries, I struggle to see how they can deal with sources of misinformation in another country?", ">\n\nPropaganda organs have been prosecuted as accessory for crimes against humanity in the past.\nThis is actually what the Nuremberg trials were about: how can you proescute a country based on laws that were LEGAL in said country? By which authority do you judge?\nThis is how human rights were even established: laws universial to every human, regardless of national laws. Human laws trump national laws, regardless of where or if that country is not even a signatory to any human rights convention (since there weren't any at the end of WW2).\nAnd this is ALSO why most of the EU has \"anti hate-speech\" laws as they are considered a human rights violation. Or at least as \"preparing the way to make human rights violations acceptable\".", ">\n\nI can see him sitting on a stool without handles to hold on to, in a little glascage, alone, and outside all the people he have singlehanded made widows, childless, fatherless, motherless, quietly starring at him while they each poor a little bottle of water into a hole that slowly fill the cage, staring him right in his scared little face without anyone there to help him, no need for a tribunal...", ">\n\nI hate this kind of talk. due process and a permanent, wide open public record of everything he's responsible for is the way. \nthen Germany can reactivate Spandau for him.", ">\n\nIt's very disturbing how some comments on Reddit really read like some sociopathic behavior. It's not the first time someone promotes torture here.", ">\n\n\nman who lived by the sword is proposed to die by the sword\nNooooo, not the heckin' human rightserinooooos", ">\n\nThat's the point, we need to stay better than those we condemned otherwise we're just hypocrites.", ">\n\nIf that was true, the penalty for forcible confinement couldn't be imprisonment.", ">\n\nThis is a BS idea because “we” will never be able to imprison Putin. He will either be overthrown and die by Russian hands or he will die in Russia as president or with cover from some next dictator.\nGermany needs to stop talking about tribunals and start sending tanks to Ukraine already.Focus on how you can help the Ukrainian people now , don’t offer some utopian solution that has no basis in reality.", ">\n\nIMO there’s a nonzero chance a new Russian leader might hand Putin over to get into the West‘s good graces.", ">\n\nWho might that new leader be? Anyone who has the power to force a change is just as culpable. There is no central opposition to unite and lead the masses so any popular revolt will be picked apart bit by bit.", ">\n\nHey, I never said anything about making actual changes!\nHonestly though: No clue. It's an incredibly unlikely scenario anyways.", ">\n\nPutins gonna get fucked baerbock.", ">\n\nSuch measures are probably counterproductive because it will just make it less likely than Putin will give up and instead will fight to the bitter end.\nOf course such charges could also be negotiated away in order to try to get Putin to give up. Basically if he quits he can go into exile.", ">\n\nWhere was this proposal when the Bush administration was invading Iraq?", ">\n\nNo one complains when the Power Rangers destroys the aliens with the Megazord. Good guys get a free pass", ">\n\nIs Germany going to go into Russia and bring these people to justice?\nThe answer is no. This is just (empty) political theatre.", ">\n\nGermany going into Russia is probably the only way Putin could actually still win this war", ">\n\nFinally, someone grew a pair!", ">\n\nIf you didt noticed putin doesn give a fuck", ">\n\nRussia is still one of the Great Powers. Nobody will go to arrest him without taking a nuke to the face.", ">\n\nHuh? It's a regional power at best.", ">\n\nWhat else are there? The US and China are the only Superpowers. The only Great Powers of Europe that remain are because of their militaries including nukes. It is why Germany is no more a great power, and it had no colonies anymore. The UK has its possessions, so do France, and Russia its Near Abroad. Everyone else may have some armies but not nukes enough and no colonies.", ">\n\nOh now there’s consequences? So before now there were no consequences?", ">\n\nNow if only Germany stopped stalling and blocking others from delivering equipment Ukraine needs to make it happen that would be great.", ">\n\nThat'll show him /s", ">\n\nLOL. You let him get away with Crimea. Let's stop play acting.", ">\n\nMust he?...", ">\n\nCriminal ad hoc tribunals are a legal aberration that are prohited by good reason at a national level by most democratic constitutions.\nIt's time to give the International Criminal Court, that was made to prosecute this kind of thing, actual jurisdiction over the world and a way to effectively enforce their judgements.", ">\n\nThey have Jurisdiction in Ukraine, from a Jurisdictional standpoint it isn't a problem really as Ukraine consented to ICC Jurisdiction.", ">\n\nBut not Russia, even if the country came under new management, I have a hard time believing they would allow this.\nCan see someone pulling an Eichmann on them tho.", ">\n\nBetter give tanks to Ukrainians. If Ukraine loose, forget tribunal. Mean time German FM can do something more useful. For example play golf.", ">\n\nThis aggression will not stand, man!", ">\n\nBy the time the debate rages 100 more lives will be lost and thousands will be left in the freezing weather. The priority should be to to stop this .whatever that takes . It is in no one's interest to continue this war.", ">\n\nAll for it. But while we're at it, can we also work on the backlog? Russia's not the first nation to go on unprovoked killing sprees since WW2. Making absolutely sure any tribunal prosecuting those responsible for committing wars of aggression and expansion to increase spheres of influence is seen as utterly impartial to the entire world has to be a priority here, if the desired effect is to prevent more of these behaviours in the future. Which it must, of course. The task is to establish a rule of law based international order again. It won't work, if what really determines whether you'll get trialled is the size of your military and the aggressiveness of your stance. Might as well not bother then, a lot of effort just to end up where we started, at might makes right.", ">\n\nRussia coming with an \"Hague Invasion Act\" bootleg soon^TM", ">\n\nOmg she is stunningly beautiful", ">\n\nThere should be no way this war ends and Russia isn’t completely isolated from normal world society until change occurs, or the current leadership is prosecuted. Meaning for me anyway, that cannot leave Russian territory without the threat of being arrested in nearly every country.\nUnfortunately the Russian people don’t care enough now to remove Putin and his subordinates from power.", ">\n\nGood!!!", ">\n\nThis is all trump's fault. He's the most recent and successful LIAR there's been. He lied his way through the presidency, treated putin like a god, made fake news and disinformation mainstream and almost stole an election he was blown away in. \nputin watched him and realized he can totally bs his way through anything, even more than he already was.\nnow it's happened in Brazil also. thanks trump for studying hitler so closely.\nOh and Mark Zuckerberg. Social Media is going to destroy society person by person if we don't curb it and govern it. It's like screaming fire in a movie theater with 100 million in the audience.", ">\n\nA dumb idea. He'll have nothing to lose by then. Also, these dicks now go to The Hague.", ">\n\nI personally would like Putin to listen to each relative of victims of war from each side, to know how they feel about war, to show photos of killed relatives, to let them speak what they think about Putin. I really want him to know all this and have time to suffer in his sleep.\nHe lives in his bubble for too long.", ">\n\nDamn! Surprisingly hot for a German politician", ">\n\nFuck yeah! Send that bitch to The Hague", ">\n\nTy...", ">\n\nWhichever country in Europe holds the trials will have to bring back the death penalty and hanging...", ">\n\nOh grow up. This is nothing but inept posturing.", ">\n\nBut they will have to roll in with the goon squad and capture him, if they can even find him. It will be a two-way massacre. Maybe an elite clandestine military special forces-type team could infiltrate the country and nab him?", ">\n\nYPU SHOULD THAT with Obama Bush Trump, also, they also invades porro countries" ]

[ "They can offer Nuremberg. It has the premises ready", ">\n\nWould be truly symbolic, not that there would be any chance to extract Putin and his cronies from Russia, while it still possesses nukes...", ">\n\nThere is certainly a chance. There are 147 million people in the Russian federation. They can throw 147 into the court system. A court system which will give those 147 men the opportunity to defend themselves and to face consequences only for actions which those 147 men are actually guilty of and no more. In exchange Russia gets the opportunity to participate in global civilization and share the freedom and prosperity. If they do not take the offer the Russian people have to languish under the despotism of those same 147 criminals. \nI do not know the odds but they are greater than zero.", ">\n\nI don't mean to shit on your idea because it isn't bad, it's just unrealistic. First off, you know those 147 men would consist of critics of Putin and journalists he was already about to assassinate anyway.\nBut the even bigger issue is the assumption that they would want to participate in this current global civilization. Putin banked all his capital on the \"history is written by the victor\" sentiment, not to mention the shared sentiment with China of forcing their perception on other nations with weaponized hypocrisy.\nPutin will never admit that his invasion failed, or that he committed war crimes or give up land. He wants to fight until the rest of the world is fatigued enough to concede and admit defeat to just end this already.\nAnd while it's definitely a condemnable attitude, he wouldn't stick to this if it weren't normalized in the past. The Crimea has been annexed since 2014, yet it was more convenient for everyone to just agree that \"those aren't Russian army men\" even though of course they were.\nSame with China putting pressure on the West to turn a blind eye on its' many questionable practices.\nYou can't just roll over and allow autocrats to do whatever and then expect them to suddenly respect you.", ">\n\nI meant Putin can be overthrown. The new administration rounds up the former leadership. \n\nYou can't just roll over and allow autocrats to do whatever and then expect them to suddenly respect you.\n\nBut a people can overthrow their autocratic regime and then become a respected nation.", ">\n\nHe can, but if you look at the timeline of the Russian Revolution of 1917 as a timeline, that ain't exactly a quick process either", ">\n\nCall me when they have Putin in custody. \nHe gives zero shits if his top people end up going to prison for war crimes. \nAnd there’s no way the war doesn’t end without:\n\nPutin dead \nPutin negotiating a deal where he never is held personally responsible. \n\nIt’s right in the dictator handbook. If you kill enough people, other countries will offer to give you a pass just to get you to stop.", ">\n\nHes only going to use it as propaganda, like \"evil west wants to judge me for defending mother russia\".", ">\n\nWhile I agree he should be held accountable, what are they going to do? Walk up to the Kremlin with 20 cops knock on the door and arrest him? This is nothing", ">\n\nNo. The Russians will do that.", ">\n\nI’m not 100% sure about that he’s put fear and blind loyalty in the right places", ">\n\nFear yes! Loyalty I'm not so sure. Seems like those most loyal have had some tragic and fatal accidents as of late. Price of failure I guess. But I'm more sure that those that remain are doing so more out of complete fear than anything else. Putin has everyone guessing who is truly loyal that everyone is too afraid to band together with the other fearful to remove him.", ">\n\nNah some of them mf act like golom and vlad is the god damn ring", ">\n\nNuremberg would be a great location.", ">\n\nThis is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 72%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nTHE HAGUE - The international community should establish a special tribunal to bring Russian President Vladimir Putin and his regime to trial over their war of aggression against Ukraine, German Foreign Minister Annalena Baerbock said Monday.\nIn a keynote speech following a visit to the International Criminal Court in The Hague, Baerbock emphasized the need to hold the Russian leadership \"Accountable\" for their invasion, which started almost a year ago.\nTo avoid this impasse, Baerbock said she wanted to form, together with partner countries, \"a special tribunal\" to address the crime of aggression against Ukraine that could investigate and try the Russian leadership.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: international^#1 Court^#2 tribunal^#3 crime^#4 Ukraine^#5", ">\n\nI think that's a fantastic idea.", ">\n\n“This aggression will not stand, man”\n-The Dude\n -Baerbock", ">\n\nPutin's a nihilist?", ">\n\nNoooo funny business, Putbowski", ">\n\nWe ba-lieve in nassing…", ">\n\nI think Putin feels he is above all that, he is untouchable. IMHO the only hope to end the war is for Putin to commit suicide or be assassinated.", ">\n\nKill Putin, someone else will be put in place by the oligarchs. You won't change too much.", ">\n\nI don't think that would happen. The oligarchs likely don't have the megalomaniac inclination Putin has. I don't see them wanting to continue down the road of attaching Ukraine.\nAlthough In the long run, I don't see Russia as becoming a \"nice\" country.", ">\n\nBaerbock proposes special tribunal to fuck the Russian raw", ">\n\nAnnalena is tough, if she could, she would drag Putin by his ear to Nürnberg herself.", ">\n\nShe’s one of the few German politicians I’m really fond of. It’s no wonder why the Greens are doing so well in the polls", ">\n\nMy family keeps hating on her because she misspoke like once or twice in front of the press. They literally do not have one real point of attack, no valid criticism, so they have to resort to personal attacks. It's sad. She's actually quite impressive.", ">\n\nPlagiarized her book? Faked her resume? Spouse became a lobbyist? I mean, she joins a long list of German politicians in these, but she’s not exactly unbefleckt.", ">\n\nWhy stop with Russian leadership? Going after everyone involved in Russian military, logistics, and State media disinformation may have serious affects on there mobilization capacity.", ">\n\nQuestion. What actual crime can they charge Russian State Media personalities with?\nThe West cant find the legal means to deal with sources of misinformation in their own countries, I struggle to see how they can deal with sources of misinformation in another country?", ">\n\nPropaganda organs have been prosecuted as accessory for crimes against humanity in the past.\nThis is actually what the Nuremberg trials were about: how can you proescute a country based on laws that were LEGAL in said country? By which authority do you judge?\nThis is how human rights were even established: laws universial to every human, regardless of national laws. Human laws trump national laws, regardless of where or if that country is not even a signatory to any human rights convention (since there weren't any at the end of WW2).\nAnd this is ALSO why most of the EU has \"anti hate-speech\" laws as they are considered a human rights violation. Or at least as \"preparing the way to make human rights violations acceptable\".", ">\n\nI can see him sitting on a stool without handles to hold on to, in a little glascage, alone, and outside all the people he have singlehanded made widows, childless, fatherless, motherless, quietly starring at him while they each poor a little bottle of water into a hole that slowly fill the cage, staring him right in his scared little face without anyone there to help him, no need for a tribunal...", ">\n\nI hate this kind of talk. due process and a permanent, wide open public record of everything he's responsible for is the way. \nthen Germany can reactivate Spandau for him.", ">\n\nIt's very disturbing how some comments on Reddit really read like some sociopathic behavior. It's not the first time someone promotes torture here.", ">\n\n\nman who lived by the sword is proposed to die by the sword\nNooooo, not the heckin' human rightserinooooos", ">\n\nThat's the point, we need to stay better than those we condemned otherwise we're just hypocrites.", ">\n\nIf that was true, the penalty for forcible confinement couldn't be imprisonment.", ">\n\nThis is a BS idea because “we” will never be able to imprison Putin. He will either be overthrown and die by Russian hands or he will die in Russia as president or with cover from some next dictator.\nGermany needs to stop talking about tribunals and start sending tanks to Ukraine already.Focus on how you can help the Ukrainian people now , don’t offer some utopian solution that has no basis in reality.", ">\n\nIMO there’s a nonzero chance a new Russian leader might hand Putin over to get into the West‘s good graces.", ">\n\nWho might that new leader be? Anyone who has the power to force a change is just as culpable. There is no central opposition to unite and lead the masses so any popular revolt will be picked apart bit by bit.", ">\n\nHey, I never said anything about making actual changes!\nHonestly though: No clue. It's an incredibly unlikely scenario anyways.", ">\n\nPutins gonna get fucked baerbock.", ">\n\nSuch measures are probably counterproductive because it will just make it less likely than Putin will give up and instead will fight to the bitter end.\nOf course such charges could also be negotiated away in order to try to get Putin to give up. Basically if he quits he can go into exile.", ">\n\nWhere was this proposal when the Bush administration was invading Iraq?", ">\n\nNo one complains when the Power Rangers destroys the aliens with the Megazord. Good guys get a free pass", ">\n\nIs Germany going to go into Russia and bring these people to justice?\nThe answer is no. This is just (empty) political theatre.", ">\n\nGermany going into Russia is probably the only way Putin could actually still win this war", ">\n\nFinally, someone grew a pair!", ">\n\nIf you didt noticed putin doesn give a fuck", ">\n\nRussia is still one of the Great Powers. Nobody will go to arrest him without taking a nuke to the face.", ">\n\nHuh? It's a regional power at best.", ">\n\nWhat else are there? The US and China are the only Superpowers. The only Great Powers of Europe that remain are because of their militaries including nukes. It is why Germany is no more a great power, and it had no colonies anymore. The UK has its possessions, so do France, and Russia its Near Abroad. Everyone else may have some armies but not nukes enough and no colonies.", ">\n\nOh now there’s consequences? So before now there were no consequences?", ">\n\nNow if only Germany stopped stalling and blocking others from delivering equipment Ukraine needs to make it happen that would be great.", ">\n\nThat'll show him /s", ">\n\nLOL. You let him get away with Crimea. Let's stop play acting.", ">\n\nMust he?...", ">\n\nCriminal ad hoc tribunals are a legal aberration that are prohited by good reason at a national level by most democratic constitutions.\nIt's time to give the International Criminal Court, that was made to prosecute this kind of thing, actual jurisdiction over the world and a way to effectively enforce their judgements.", ">\n\nThey have Jurisdiction in Ukraine, from a Jurisdictional standpoint it isn't a problem really as Ukraine consented to ICC Jurisdiction.", ">\n\nBut not Russia, even if the country came under new management, I have a hard time believing they would allow this.\nCan see someone pulling an Eichmann on them tho.", ">\n\nBetter give tanks to Ukrainians. If Ukraine loose, forget tribunal. Mean time German FM can do something more useful. For example play golf.", ">\n\nThis aggression will not stand, man!", ">\n\nBy the time the debate rages 100 more lives will be lost and thousands will be left in the freezing weather. The priority should be to to stop this .whatever that takes . It is in no one's interest to continue this war.", ">\n\nAll for it. But while we're at it, can we also work on the backlog? Russia's not the first nation to go on unprovoked killing sprees since WW2. Making absolutely sure any tribunal prosecuting those responsible for committing wars of aggression and expansion to increase spheres of influence is seen as utterly impartial to the entire world has to be a priority here, if the desired effect is to prevent more of these behaviours in the future. Which it must, of course. The task is to establish a rule of law based international order again. It won't work, if what really determines whether you'll get trialled is the size of your military and the aggressiveness of your stance. Might as well not bother then, a lot of effort just to end up where we started, at might makes right.", ">\n\nRussia coming with an \"Hague Invasion Act\" bootleg soon^TM", ">\n\nOmg she is stunningly beautiful", ">\n\nThere should be no way this war ends and Russia isn’t completely isolated from normal world society until change occurs, or the current leadership is prosecuted. Meaning for me anyway, that cannot leave Russian territory without the threat of being arrested in nearly every country.\nUnfortunately the Russian people don’t care enough now to remove Putin and his subordinates from power.", ">\n\nGood!!!", ">\n\nThis is all trump's fault. He's the most recent and successful LIAR there's been. He lied his way through the presidency, treated putin like a god, made fake news and disinformation mainstream and almost stole an election he was blown away in. \nputin watched him and realized he can totally bs his way through anything, even more than he already was.\nnow it's happened in Brazil also. thanks trump for studying hitler so closely.\nOh and Mark Zuckerberg. Social Media is going to destroy society person by person if we don't curb it and govern it. It's like screaming fire in a movie theater with 100 million in the audience.", ">\n\nA dumb idea. He'll have nothing to lose by then. Also, these dicks now go to The Hague.", ">\n\nI personally would like Putin to listen to each relative of victims of war from each side, to know how they feel about war, to show photos of killed relatives, to let them speak what they think about Putin. I really want him to know all this and have time to suffer in his sleep.\nHe lives in his bubble for too long.", ">\n\nDamn! Surprisingly hot for a German politician", ">\n\nFuck yeah! Send that bitch to The Hague", ">\n\nTy...", ">\n\nWhichever country in Europe holds the trials will have to bring back the death penalty and hanging...", ">\n\nOh grow up. This is nothing but inept posturing.", ">\n\nBut they will have to roll in with the goon squad and capture him, if they can even find him. It will be a two-way massacre. Maybe an elite clandestine military special forces-type team could infiltrate the country and nab him?", ">\n\nYPU SHOULD THAT with Obama Bush Trump, also, they also invades porro countries", ">\n\nI’m not sure staging a Nuremberg trial in absentia when trying to get both parties to the negotiating table is the best idea.\nYou kinda need to leave some doors open. If you don’t they’ll never have an incentive to deescalate." ]

[ "They can offer Nuremberg. It has the premises ready", ">\n\nWould be truly symbolic, not that there would be any chance to extract Putin and his cronies from Russia, while it still possesses nukes...", ">\n\nThere is certainly a chance. There are 147 million people in the Russian federation. They can throw 147 into the court system. A court system which will give those 147 men the opportunity to defend themselves and to face consequences only for actions which those 147 men are actually guilty of and no more. In exchange Russia gets the opportunity to participate in global civilization and share the freedom and prosperity. If they do not take the offer the Russian people have to languish under the despotism of those same 147 criminals. \nI do not know the odds but they are greater than zero.", ">\n\nI don't mean to shit on your idea because it isn't bad, it's just unrealistic. First off, you know those 147 men would consist of critics of Putin and journalists he was already about to assassinate anyway.\nBut the even bigger issue is the assumption that they would want to participate in this current global civilization. Putin banked all his capital on the \"history is written by the victor\" sentiment, not to mention the shared sentiment with China of forcing their perception on other nations with weaponized hypocrisy.\nPutin will never admit that his invasion failed, or that he committed war crimes or give up land. He wants to fight until the rest of the world is fatigued enough to concede and admit defeat to just end this already.\nAnd while it's definitely a condemnable attitude, he wouldn't stick to this if it weren't normalized in the past. The Crimea has been annexed since 2014, yet it was more convenient for everyone to just agree that \"those aren't Russian army men\" even though of course they were.\nSame with China putting pressure on the West to turn a blind eye on its' many questionable practices.\nYou can't just roll over and allow autocrats to do whatever and then expect them to suddenly respect you.", ">\n\nI meant Putin can be overthrown. The new administration rounds up the former leadership. \n\nYou can't just roll over and allow autocrats to do whatever and then expect them to suddenly respect you.\n\nBut a people can overthrow their autocratic regime and then become a respected nation.", ">\n\nHe can, but if you look at the timeline of the Russian Revolution of 1917 as a timeline, that ain't exactly a quick process either", ">\n\nCall me when they have Putin in custody. \nHe gives zero shits if his top people end up going to prison for war crimes. \nAnd there’s no way the war doesn’t end without:\n\nPutin dead \nPutin negotiating a deal where he never is held personally responsible. \n\nIt’s right in the dictator handbook. If you kill enough people, other countries will offer to give you a pass just to get you to stop.", ">\n\nHes only going to use it as propaganda, like \"evil west wants to judge me for defending mother russia\".", ">\n\nWhile I agree he should be held accountable, what are they going to do? Walk up to the Kremlin with 20 cops knock on the door and arrest him? This is nothing", ">\n\nNo. The Russians will do that.", ">\n\nI’m not 100% sure about that he’s put fear and blind loyalty in the right places", ">\n\nFear yes! Loyalty I'm not so sure. Seems like those most loyal have had some tragic and fatal accidents as of late. Price of failure I guess. But I'm more sure that those that remain are doing so more out of complete fear than anything else. Putin has everyone guessing who is truly loyal that everyone is too afraid to band together with the other fearful to remove him.", ">\n\nNah some of them mf act like golom and vlad is the god damn ring", ">\n\nNuremberg would be a great location.", ">\n\nThis is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 72%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nTHE HAGUE - The international community should establish a special tribunal to bring Russian President Vladimir Putin and his regime to trial over their war of aggression against Ukraine, German Foreign Minister Annalena Baerbock said Monday.\nIn a keynote speech following a visit to the International Criminal Court in The Hague, Baerbock emphasized the need to hold the Russian leadership \"Accountable\" for their invasion, which started almost a year ago.\nTo avoid this impasse, Baerbock said she wanted to form, together with partner countries, \"a special tribunal\" to address the crime of aggression against Ukraine that could investigate and try the Russian leadership.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: international^#1 Court^#2 tribunal^#3 crime^#4 Ukraine^#5", ">\n\nI think that's a fantastic idea.", ">\n\n“This aggression will not stand, man”\n-The Dude\n -Baerbock", ">\n\nPutin's a nihilist?", ">\n\nNoooo funny business, Putbowski", ">\n\nWe ba-lieve in nassing…", ">\n\nI think Putin feels he is above all that, he is untouchable. IMHO the only hope to end the war is for Putin to commit suicide or be assassinated.", ">\n\nKill Putin, someone else will be put in place by the oligarchs. You won't change too much.", ">\n\nI don't think that would happen. The oligarchs likely don't have the megalomaniac inclination Putin has. I don't see them wanting to continue down the road of attaching Ukraine.\nAlthough In the long run, I don't see Russia as becoming a \"nice\" country.", ">\n\nBaerbock proposes special tribunal to fuck the Russian raw", ">\n\nAnnalena is tough, if she could, she would drag Putin by his ear to Nürnberg herself.", ">\n\nShe’s one of the few German politicians I’m really fond of. It’s no wonder why the Greens are doing so well in the polls", ">\n\nMy family keeps hating on her because she misspoke like once or twice in front of the press. They literally do not have one real point of attack, no valid criticism, so they have to resort to personal attacks. It's sad. She's actually quite impressive.", ">\n\nPlagiarized her book? Faked her resume? Spouse became a lobbyist? I mean, she joins a long list of German politicians in these, but she’s not exactly unbefleckt.", ">\n\nWhy stop with Russian leadership? Going after everyone involved in Russian military, logistics, and State media disinformation may have serious affects on there mobilization capacity.", ">\n\nQuestion. What actual crime can they charge Russian State Media personalities with?\nThe West cant find the legal means to deal with sources of misinformation in their own countries, I struggle to see how they can deal with sources of misinformation in another country?", ">\n\nPropaganda organs have been prosecuted as accessory for crimes against humanity in the past.\nThis is actually what the Nuremberg trials were about: how can you proescute a country based on laws that were LEGAL in said country? By which authority do you judge?\nThis is how human rights were even established: laws universial to every human, regardless of national laws. Human laws trump national laws, regardless of where or if that country is not even a signatory to any human rights convention (since there weren't any at the end of WW2).\nAnd this is ALSO why most of the EU has \"anti hate-speech\" laws as they are considered a human rights violation. Or at least as \"preparing the way to make human rights violations acceptable\".", ">\n\nI can see him sitting on a stool without handles to hold on to, in a little glascage, alone, and outside all the people he have singlehanded made widows, childless, fatherless, motherless, quietly starring at him while they each poor a little bottle of water into a hole that slowly fill the cage, staring him right in his scared little face without anyone there to help him, no need for a tribunal...", ">\n\nI hate this kind of talk. due process and a permanent, wide open public record of everything he's responsible for is the way. \nthen Germany can reactivate Spandau for him.", ">\n\nIt's very disturbing how some comments on Reddit really read like some sociopathic behavior. It's not the first time someone promotes torture here.", ">\n\n\nman who lived by the sword is proposed to die by the sword\nNooooo, not the heckin' human rightserinooooos", ">\n\nThat's the point, we need to stay better than those we condemned otherwise we're just hypocrites.", ">\n\nIf that was true, the penalty for forcible confinement couldn't be imprisonment.", ">\n\nThis is a BS idea because “we” will never be able to imprison Putin. He will either be overthrown and die by Russian hands or he will die in Russia as president or with cover from some next dictator.\nGermany needs to stop talking about tribunals and start sending tanks to Ukraine already.Focus on how you can help the Ukrainian people now , don’t offer some utopian solution that has no basis in reality.", ">\n\nIMO there’s a nonzero chance a new Russian leader might hand Putin over to get into the West‘s good graces.", ">\n\nWho might that new leader be? Anyone who has the power to force a change is just as culpable. There is no central opposition to unite and lead the masses so any popular revolt will be picked apart bit by bit.", ">\n\nHey, I never said anything about making actual changes!\nHonestly though: No clue. It's an incredibly unlikely scenario anyways.", ">\n\nPutins gonna get fucked baerbock.", ">\n\nSuch measures are probably counterproductive because it will just make it less likely than Putin will give up and instead will fight to the bitter end.\nOf course such charges could also be negotiated away in order to try to get Putin to give up. Basically if he quits he can go into exile.", ">\n\nWhere was this proposal when the Bush administration was invading Iraq?", ">\n\nNo one complains when the Power Rangers destroys the aliens with the Megazord. Good guys get a free pass", ">\n\nIs Germany going to go into Russia and bring these people to justice?\nThe answer is no. This is just (empty) political theatre.", ">\n\nGermany going into Russia is probably the only way Putin could actually still win this war", ">\n\nFinally, someone grew a pair!", ">\n\nIf you didt noticed putin doesn give a fuck", ">\n\nRussia is still one of the Great Powers. Nobody will go to arrest him without taking a nuke to the face.", ">\n\nHuh? It's a regional power at best.", ">\n\nWhat else are there? The US and China are the only Superpowers. The only Great Powers of Europe that remain are because of their militaries including nukes. It is why Germany is no more a great power, and it had no colonies anymore. The UK has its possessions, so do France, and Russia its Near Abroad. Everyone else may have some armies but not nukes enough and no colonies.", ">\n\nOh now there’s consequences? So before now there were no consequences?", ">\n\nNow if only Germany stopped stalling and blocking others from delivering equipment Ukraine needs to make it happen that would be great.", ">\n\nThat'll show him /s", ">\n\nLOL. You let him get away with Crimea. Let's stop play acting.", ">\n\nMust he?...", ">\n\nCriminal ad hoc tribunals are a legal aberration that are prohited by good reason at a national level by most democratic constitutions.\nIt's time to give the International Criminal Court, that was made to prosecute this kind of thing, actual jurisdiction over the world and a way to effectively enforce their judgements.", ">\n\nThey have Jurisdiction in Ukraine, from a Jurisdictional standpoint it isn't a problem really as Ukraine consented to ICC Jurisdiction.", ">\n\nBut not Russia, even if the country came under new management, I have a hard time believing they would allow this.\nCan see someone pulling an Eichmann on them tho.", ">\n\nBetter give tanks to Ukrainians. If Ukraine loose, forget tribunal. Mean time German FM can do something more useful. For example play golf.", ">\n\nThis aggression will not stand, man!", ">\n\nBy the time the debate rages 100 more lives will be lost and thousands will be left in the freezing weather. The priority should be to to stop this .whatever that takes . It is in no one's interest to continue this war.", ">\n\nAll for it. But while we're at it, can we also work on the backlog? Russia's not the first nation to go on unprovoked killing sprees since WW2. Making absolutely sure any tribunal prosecuting those responsible for committing wars of aggression and expansion to increase spheres of influence is seen as utterly impartial to the entire world has to be a priority here, if the desired effect is to prevent more of these behaviours in the future. Which it must, of course. The task is to establish a rule of law based international order again. It won't work, if what really determines whether you'll get trialled is the size of your military and the aggressiveness of your stance. Might as well not bother then, a lot of effort just to end up where we started, at might makes right.", ">\n\nRussia coming with an \"Hague Invasion Act\" bootleg soon^TM", ">\n\nOmg she is stunningly beautiful", ">\n\nThere should be no way this war ends and Russia isn’t completely isolated from normal world society until change occurs, or the current leadership is prosecuted. Meaning for me anyway, that cannot leave Russian territory without the threat of being arrested in nearly every country.\nUnfortunately the Russian people don’t care enough now to remove Putin and his subordinates from power.", ">\n\nGood!!!", ">\n\nThis is all trump's fault. He's the most recent and successful LIAR there's been. He lied his way through the presidency, treated putin like a god, made fake news and disinformation mainstream and almost stole an election he was blown away in. \nputin watched him and realized he can totally bs his way through anything, even more than he already was.\nnow it's happened in Brazil also. thanks trump for studying hitler so closely.\nOh and Mark Zuckerberg. Social Media is going to destroy society person by person if we don't curb it and govern it. It's like screaming fire in a movie theater with 100 million in the audience.", ">\n\nA dumb idea. He'll have nothing to lose by then. Also, these dicks now go to The Hague.", ">\n\nI personally would like Putin to listen to each relative of victims of war from each side, to know how they feel about war, to show photos of killed relatives, to let them speak what they think about Putin. I really want him to know all this and have time to suffer in his sleep.\nHe lives in his bubble for too long.", ">\n\nDamn! Surprisingly hot for a German politician", ">\n\nFuck yeah! Send that bitch to The Hague", ">\n\nTy...", ">\n\nWhichever country in Europe holds the trials will have to bring back the death penalty and hanging...", ">\n\nOh grow up. This is nothing but inept posturing.", ">\n\nBut they will have to roll in with the goon squad and capture him, if they can even find him. It will be a two-way massacre. Maybe an elite clandestine military special forces-type team could infiltrate the country and nab him?", ">\n\nYPU SHOULD THAT with Obama Bush Trump, also, they also invades porro countries", ">\n\nI’m not sure staging a Nuremberg trial in absentia when trying to get both parties to the negotiating table is the best idea.\nYou kinda need to leave some doors open. If you don’t they’ll never have an incentive to deescalate.", ">\n\nHanger doors have been left open. Putin has no interest in peace. Need only to point to the deliberate attacks on civilian structures. The promise to not attack if nuclear weapons were removed. The appeasement by giving control of Crimea only for him to not only slowly move actual border fences but then attack later on.\nHe has shown again and again that his word cannot be trusted." ]

[ "They can offer Nuremberg. It has the premises ready", ">\n\nWould be truly symbolic, not that there would be any chance to extract Putin and his cronies from Russia, while it still possesses nukes...", ">\n\nThere is certainly a chance. There are 147 million people in the Russian federation. They can throw 147 into the court system. A court system which will give those 147 men the opportunity to defend themselves and to face consequences only for actions which those 147 men are actually guilty of and no more. In exchange Russia gets the opportunity to participate in global civilization and share the freedom and prosperity. If they do not take the offer the Russian people have to languish under the despotism of those same 147 criminals. \nI do not know the odds but they are greater than zero.", ">\n\nI don't mean to shit on your idea because it isn't bad, it's just unrealistic. First off, you know those 147 men would consist of critics of Putin and journalists he was already about to assassinate anyway.\nBut the even bigger issue is the assumption that they would want to participate in this current global civilization. Putin banked all his capital on the \"history is written by the victor\" sentiment, not to mention the shared sentiment with China of forcing their perception on other nations with weaponized hypocrisy.\nPutin will never admit that his invasion failed, or that he committed war crimes or give up land. He wants to fight until the rest of the world is fatigued enough to concede and admit defeat to just end this already.\nAnd while it's definitely a condemnable attitude, he wouldn't stick to this if it weren't normalized in the past. The Crimea has been annexed since 2014, yet it was more convenient for everyone to just agree that \"those aren't Russian army men\" even though of course they were.\nSame with China putting pressure on the West to turn a blind eye on its' many questionable practices.\nYou can't just roll over and allow autocrats to do whatever and then expect them to suddenly respect you.", ">\n\nI meant Putin can be overthrown. The new administration rounds up the former leadership. \n\nYou can't just roll over and allow autocrats to do whatever and then expect them to suddenly respect you.\n\nBut a people can overthrow their autocratic regime and then become a respected nation.", ">\n\nHe can, but if you look at the timeline of the Russian Revolution of 1917 as a timeline, that ain't exactly a quick process either", ">\n\nCall me when they have Putin in custody. \nHe gives zero shits if his top people end up going to prison for war crimes. \nAnd there’s no way the war doesn’t end without:\n\nPutin dead \nPutin negotiating a deal where he never is held personally responsible. \n\nIt’s right in the dictator handbook. If you kill enough people, other countries will offer to give you a pass just to get you to stop.", ">\n\nHes only going to use it as propaganda, like \"evil west wants to judge me for defending mother russia\".", ">\n\nWhile I agree he should be held accountable, what are they going to do? Walk up to the Kremlin with 20 cops knock on the door and arrest him? This is nothing", ">\n\nNo. The Russians will do that.", ">\n\nI’m not 100% sure about that he’s put fear and blind loyalty in the right places", ">\n\nFear yes! Loyalty I'm not so sure. Seems like those most loyal have had some tragic and fatal accidents as of late. Price of failure I guess. But I'm more sure that those that remain are doing so more out of complete fear than anything else. Putin has everyone guessing who is truly loyal that everyone is too afraid to band together with the other fearful to remove him.", ">\n\nNah some of them mf act like golom and vlad is the god damn ring", ">\n\nNuremberg would be a great location.", ">\n\nThis is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 72%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nTHE HAGUE - The international community should establish a special tribunal to bring Russian President Vladimir Putin and his regime to trial over their war of aggression against Ukraine, German Foreign Minister Annalena Baerbock said Monday.\nIn a keynote speech following a visit to the International Criminal Court in The Hague, Baerbock emphasized the need to hold the Russian leadership \"Accountable\" for their invasion, which started almost a year ago.\nTo avoid this impasse, Baerbock said she wanted to form, together with partner countries, \"a special tribunal\" to address the crime of aggression against Ukraine that could investigate and try the Russian leadership.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: international^#1 Court^#2 tribunal^#3 crime^#4 Ukraine^#5", ">\n\nI think that's a fantastic idea.", ">\n\n“This aggression will not stand, man”\n-The Dude\n -Baerbock", ">\n\nPutin's a nihilist?", ">\n\nNoooo funny business, Putbowski", ">\n\nWe ba-lieve in nassing…", ">\n\nI think Putin feels he is above all that, he is untouchable. IMHO the only hope to end the war is for Putin to commit suicide or be assassinated.", ">\n\nKill Putin, someone else will be put in place by the oligarchs. You won't change too much.", ">\n\nI don't think that would happen. The oligarchs likely don't have the megalomaniac inclination Putin has. I don't see them wanting to continue down the road of attaching Ukraine.\nAlthough In the long run, I don't see Russia as becoming a \"nice\" country.", ">\n\nBaerbock proposes special tribunal to fuck the Russian raw", ">\n\nAnnalena is tough, if she could, she would drag Putin by his ear to Nürnberg herself.", ">\n\nShe’s one of the few German politicians I’m really fond of. It’s no wonder why the Greens are doing so well in the polls", ">\n\nMy family keeps hating on her because she misspoke like once or twice in front of the press. They literally do not have one real point of attack, no valid criticism, so they have to resort to personal attacks. It's sad. She's actually quite impressive.", ">\n\nPlagiarized her book? Faked her resume? Spouse became a lobbyist? I mean, she joins a long list of German politicians in these, but she’s not exactly unbefleckt.", ">\n\nWhy stop with Russian leadership? Going after everyone involved in Russian military, logistics, and State media disinformation may have serious affects on there mobilization capacity.", ">\n\nQuestion. What actual crime can they charge Russian State Media personalities with?\nThe West cant find the legal means to deal with sources of misinformation in their own countries, I struggle to see how they can deal with sources of misinformation in another country?", ">\n\nPropaganda organs have been prosecuted as accessory for crimes against humanity in the past.\nThis is actually what the Nuremberg trials were about: how can you proescute a country based on laws that were LEGAL in said country? By which authority do you judge?\nThis is how human rights were even established: laws universial to every human, regardless of national laws. Human laws trump national laws, regardless of where or if that country is not even a signatory to any human rights convention (since there weren't any at the end of WW2).\nAnd this is ALSO why most of the EU has \"anti hate-speech\" laws as they are considered a human rights violation. Or at least as \"preparing the way to make human rights violations acceptable\".", ">\n\nI can see him sitting on a stool without handles to hold on to, in a little glascage, alone, and outside all the people he have singlehanded made widows, childless, fatherless, motherless, quietly starring at him while they each poor a little bottle of water into a hole that slowly fill the cage, staring him right in his scared little face without anyone there to help him, no need for a tribunal...", ">\n\nI hate this kind of talk. due process and a permanent, wide open public record of everything he's responsible for is the way. \nthen Germany can reactivate Spandau for him.", ">\n\nIt's very disturbing how some comments on Reddit really read like some sociopathic behavior. It's not the first time someone promotes torture here.", ">\n\n\nman who lived by the sword is proposed to die by the sword\nNooooo, not the heckin' human rightserinooooos", ">\n\nThat's the point, we need to stay better than those we condemned otherwise we're just hypocrites.", ">\n\nIf that was true, the penalty for forcible confinement couldn't be imprisonment.", ">\n\nThis is a BS idea because “we” will never be able to imprison Putin. He will either be overthrown and die by Russian hands or he will die in Russia as president or with cover from some next dictator.\nGermany needs to stop talking about tribunals and start sending tanks to Ukraine already.Focus on how you can help the Ukrainian people now , don’t offer some utopian solution that has no basis in reality.", ">\n\nIMO there’s a nonzero chance a new Russian leader might hand Putin over to get into the West‘s good graces.", ">\n\nWho might that new leader be? Anyone who has the power to force a change is just as culpable. There is no central opposition to unite and lead the masses so any popular revolt will be picked apart bit by bit.", ">\n\nHey, I never said anything about making actual changes!\nHonestly though: No clue. It's an incredibly unlikely scenario anyways.", ">\n\nPutins gonna get fucked baerbock.", ">\n\nSuch measures are probably counterproductive because it will just make it less likely than Putin will give up and instead will fight to the bitter end.\nOf course such charges could also be negotiated away in order to try to get Putin to give up. Basically if he quits he can go into exile.", ">\n\nWhere was this proposal when the Bush administration was invading Iraq?", ">\n\nNo one complains when the Power Rangers destroys the aliens with the Megazord. Good guys get a free pass", ">\n\nIs Germany going to go into Russia and bring these people to justice?\nThe answer is no. This is just (empty) political theatre.", ">\n\nGermany going into Russia is probably the only way Putin could actually still win this war", ">\n\nFinally, someone grew a pair!", ">\n\nIf you didt noticed putin doesn give a fuck", ">\n\nRussia is still one of the Great Powers. Nobody will go to arrest him without taking a nuke to the face.", ">\n\nHuh? It's a regional power at best.", ">\n\nWhat else are there? The US and China are the only Superpowers. The only Great Powers of Europe that remain are because of their militaries including nukes. It is why Germany is no more a great power, and it had no colonies anymore. The UK has its possessions, so do France, and Russia its Near Abroad. Everyone else may have some armies but not nukes enough and no colonies.", ">\n\nOh now there’s consequences? So before now there were no consequences?", ">\n\nNow if only Germany stopped stalling and blocking others from delivering equipment Ukraine needs to make it happen that would be great.", ">\n\nThat'll show him /s", ">\n\nLOL. You let him get away with Crimea. Let's stop play acting.", ">\n\nMust he?...", ">\n\nCriminal ad hoc tribunals are a legal aberration that are prohited by good reason at a national level by most democratic constitutions.\nIt's time to give the International Criminal Court, that was made to prosecute this kind of thing, actual jurisdiction over the world and a way to effectively enforce their judgements.", ">\n\nThey have Jurisdiction in Ukraine, from a Jurisdictional standpoint it isn't a problem really as Ukraine consented to ICC Jurisdiction.", ">\n\nBut not Russia, even if the country came under new management, I have a hard time believing they would allow this.\nCan see someone pulling an Eichmann on them tho.", ">\n\nBetter give tanks to Ukrainians. If Ukraine loose, forget tribunal. Mean time German FM can do something more useful. For example play golf.", ">\n\nThis aggression will not stand, man!", ">\n\nBy the time the debate rages 100 more lives will be lost and thousands will be left in the freezing weather. The priority should be to to stop this .whatever that takes . It is in no one's interest to continue this war.", ">\n\nAll for it. But while we're at it, can we also work on the backlog? Russia's not the first nation to go on unprovoked killing sprees since WW2. Making absolutely sure any tribunal prosecuting those responsible for committing wars of aggression and expansion to increase spheres of influence is seen as utterly impartial to the entire world has to be a priority here, if the desired effect is to prevent more of these behaviours in the future. Which it must, of course. The task is to establish a rule of law based international order again. It won't work, if what really determines whether you'll get trialled is the size of your military and the aggressiveness of your stance. Might as well not bother then, a lot of effort just to end up where we started, at might makes right.", ">\n\nRussia coming with an \"Hague Invasion Act\" bootleg soon^TM", ">\n\nOmg she is stunningly beautiful", ">\n\nThere should be no way this war ends and Russia isn’t completely isolated from normal world society until change occurs, or the current leadership is prosecuted. Meaning for me anyway, that cannot leave Russian territory without the threat of being arrested in nearly every country.\nUnfortunately the Russian people don’t care enough now to remove Putin and his subordinates from power.", ">\n\nGood!!!", ">\n\nThis is all trump's fault. He's the most recent and successful LIAR there's been. He lied his way through the presidency, treated putin like a god, made fake news and disinformation mainstream and almost stole an election he was blown away in. \nputin watched him and realized he can totally bs his way through anything, even more than he already was.\nnow it's happened in Brazil also. thanks trump for studying hitler so closely.\nOh and Mark Zuckerberg. Social Media is going to destroy society person by person if we don't curb it and govern it. It's like screaming fire in a movie theater with 100 million in the audience.", ">\n\nA dumb idea. He'll have nothing to lose by then. Also, these dicks now go to The Hague.", ">\n\nI personally would like Putin to listen to each relative of victims of war from each side, to know how they feel about war, to show photos of killed relatives, to let them speak what they think about Putin. I really want him to know all this and have time to suffer in his sleep.\nHe lives in his bubble for too long.", ">\n\nDamn! Surprisingly hot for a German politician", ">\n\nFuck yeah! Send that bitch to The Hague", ">\n\nTy...", ">\n\nWhichever country in Europe holds the trials will have to bring back the death penalty and hanging...", ">\n\nOh grow up. This is nothing but inept posturing.", ">\n\nBut they will have to roll in with the goon squad and capture him, if they can even find him. It will be a two-way massacre. Maybe an elite clandestine military special forces-type team could infiltrate the country and nab him?", ">\n\nYPU SHOULD THAT with Obama Bush Trump, also, they also invades porro countries", ">\n\nI’m not sure staging a Nuremberg trial in absentia when trying to get both parties to the negotiating table is the best idea.\nYou kinda need to leave some doors open. If you don’t they’ll never have an incentive to deescalate.", ">\n\nHanger doors have been left open. Putin has no interest in peace. Need only to point to the deliberate attacks on civilian structures. The promise to not attack if nuclear weapons were removed. The appeasement by giving control of Crimea only for him to not only slowly move actual border fences but then attack later on.\nHe has shown again and again that his word cannot be trusted.", ">\n\nWell with that position, I’m not sure how this ends without a nuclear exchange eventually.\nAnd trials in absentia are bad optics." ]

[ "They can offer Nuremberg. It has the premises ready", ">\n\nWould be truly symbolic, not that there would be any chance to extract Putin and his cronies from Russia, while it still possesses nukes...", ">\n\nThere is certainly a chance. There are 147 million people in the Russian federation. They can throw 147 into the court system. A court system which will give those 147 men the opportunity to defend themselves and to face consequences only for actions which those 147 men are actually guilty of and no more. In exchange Russia gets the opportunity to participate in global civilization and share the freedom and prosperity. If they do not take the offer the Russian people have to languish under the despotism of those same 147 criminals. \nI do not know the odds but they are greater than zero.", ">\n\nI don't mean to shit on your idea because it isn't bad, it's just unrealistic. First off, you know those 147 men would consist of critics of Putin and journalists he was already about to assassinate anyway.\nBut the even bigger issue is the assumption that they would want to participate in this current global civilization. Putin banked all his capital on the \"history is written by the victor\" sentiment, not to mention the shared sentiment with China of forcing their perception on other nations with weaponized hypocrisy.\nPutin will never admit that his invasion failed, or that he committed war crimes or give up land. He wants to fight until the rest of the world is fatigued enough to concede and admit defeat to just end this already.\nAnd while it's definitely a condemnable attitude, he wouldn't stick to this if it weren't normalized in the past. The Crimea has been annexed since 2014, yet it was more convenient for everyone to just agree that \"those aren't Russian army men\" even though of course they were.\nSame with China putting pressure on the West to turn a blind eye on its' many questionable practices.\nYou can't just roll over and allow autocrats to do whatever and then expect them to suddenly respect you.", ">\n\nI meant Putin can be overthrown. The new administration rounds up the former leadership. \n\nYou can't just roll over and allow autocrats to do whatever and then expect them to suddenly respect you.\n\nBut a people can overthrow their autocratic regime and then become a respected nation.", ">\n\nHe can, but if you look at the timeline of the Russian Revolution of 1917 as a timeline, that ain't exactly a quick process either", ">\n\nCall me when they have Putin in custody. \nHe gives zero shits if his top people end up going to prison for war crimes. \nAnd there’s no way the war doesn’t end without:\n\nPutin dead \nPutin negotiating a deal where he never is held personally responsible. \n\nIt’s right in the dictator handbook. If you kill enough people, other countries will offer to give you a pass just to get you to stop.", ">\n\nHes only going to use it as propaganda, like \"evil west wants to judge me for defending mother russia\".", ">\n\nWhile I agree he should be held accountable, what are they going to do? Walk up to the Kremlin with 20 cops knock on the door and arrest him? This is nothing", ">\n\nNo. The Russians will do that.", ">\n\nI’m not 100% sure about that he’s put fear and blind loyalty in the right places", ">\n\nFear yes! Loyalty I'm not so sure. Seems like those most loyal have had some tragic and fatal accidents as of late. Price of failure I guess. But I'm more sure that those that remain are doing so more out of complete fear than anything else. Putin has everyone guessing who is truly loyal that everyone is too afraid to band together with the other fearful to remove him.", ">\n\nNah some of them mf act like golom and vlad is the god damn ring", ">\n\nNuremberg would be a great location.", ">\n\nThis is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 72%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nTHE HAGUE - The international community should establish a special tribunal to bring Russian President Vladimir Putin and his regime to trial over their war of aggression against Ukraine, German Foreign Minister Annalena Baerbock said Monday.\nIn a keynote speech following a visit to the International Criminal Court in The Hague, Baerbock emphasized the need to hold the Russian leadership \"Accountable\" for their invasion, which started almost a year ago.\nTo avoid this impasse, Baerbock said she wanted to form, together with partner countries, \"a special tribunal\" to address the crime of aggression against Ukraine that could investigate and try the Russian leadership.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: international^#1 Court^#2 tribunal^#3 crime^#4 Ukraine^#5", ">\n\nI think that's a fantastic idea.", ">\n\n“This aggression will not stand, man”\n-The Dude\n -Baerbock", ">\n\nPutin's a nihilist?", ">\n\nNoooo funny business, Putbowski", ">\n\nWe ba-lieve in nassing…", ">\n\nI think Putin feels he is above all that, he is untouchable. IMHO the only hope to end the war is for Putin to commit suicide or be assassinated.", ">\n\nKill Putin, someone else will be put in place by the oligarchs. You won't change too much.", ">\n\nI don't think that would happen. The oligarchs likely don't have the megalomaniac inclination Putin has. I don't see them wanting to continue down the road of attaching Ukraine.\nAlthough In the long run, I don't see Russia as becoming a \"nice\" country.", ">\n\nBaerbock proposes special tribunal to fuck the Russian raw", ">\n\nAnnalena is tough, if she could, she would drag Putin by his ear to Nürnberg herself.", ">\n\nShe’s one of the few German politicians I’m really fond of. It’s no wonder why the Greens are doing so well in the polls", ">\n\nMy family keeps hating on her because she misspoke like once or twice in front of the press. They literally do not have one real point of attack, no valid criticism, so they have to resort to personal attacks. It's sad. She's actually quite impressive.", ">\n\nPlagiarized her book? Faked her resume? Spouse became a lobbyist? I mean, she joins a long list of German politicians in these, but she’s not exactly unbefleckt.", ">\n\nWhy stop with Russian leadership? Going after everyone involved in Russian military, logistics, and State media disinformation may have serious affects on there mobilization capacity.", ">\n\nQuestion. What actual crime can they charge Russian State Media personalities with?\nThe West cant find the legal means to deal with sources of misinformation in their own countries, I struggle to see how they can deal with sources of misinformation in another country?", ">\n\nPropaganda organs have been prosecuted as accessory for crimes against humanity in the past.\nThis is actually what the Nuremberg trials were about: how can you proescute a country based on laws that were LEGAL in said country? By which authority do you judge?\nThis is how human rights were even established: laws universial to every human, regardless of national laws. Human laws trump national laws, regardless of where or if that country is not even a signatory to any human rights convention (since there weren't any at the end of WW2).\nAnd this is ALSO why most of the EU has \"anti hate-speech\" laws as they are considered a human rights violation. Or at least as \"preparing the way to make human rights violations acceptable\".", ">\n\nI can see him sitting on a stool without handles to hold on to, in a little glascage, alone, and outside all the people he have singlehanded made widows, childless, fatherless, motherless, quietly starring at him while they each poor a little bottle of water into a hole that slowly fill the cage, staring him right in his scared little face without anyone there to help him, no need for a tribunal...", ">\n\nI hate this kind of talk. due process and a permanent, wide open public record of everything he's responsible for is the way. \nthen Germany can reactivate Spandau for him.", ">\n\nIt's very disturbing how some comments on Reddit really read like some sociopathic behavior. It's not the first time someone promotes torture here.", ">\n\n\nman who lived by the sword is proposed to die by the sword\nNooooo, not the heckin' human rightserinooooos", ">\n\nThat's the point, we need to stay better than those we condemned otherwise we're just hypocrites.", ">\n\nIf that was true, the penalty for forcible confinement couldn't be imprisonment.", ">\n\nThis is a BS idea because “we” will never be able to imprison Putin. He will either be overthrown and die by Russian hands or he will die in Russia as president or with cover from some next dictator.\nGermany needs to stop talking about tribunals and start sending tanks to Ukraine already.Focus on how you can help the Ukrainian people now , don’t offer some utopian solution that has no basis in reality.", ">\n\nIMO there’s a nonzero chance a new Russian leader might hand Putin over to get into the West‘s good graces.", ">\n\nWho might that new leader be? Anyone who has the power to force a change is just as culpable. There is no central opposition to unite and lead the masses so any popular revolt will be picked apart bit by bit.", ">\n\nHey, I never said anything about making actual changes!\nHonestly though: No clue. It's an incredibly unlikely scenario anyways.", ">\n\nPutins gonna get fucked baerbock.", ">\n\nSuch measures are probably counterproductive because it will just make it less likely than Putin will give up and instead will fight to the bitter end.\nOf course such charges could also be negotiated away in order to try to get Putin to give up. Basically if he quits he can go into exile.", ">\n\nWhere was this proposal when the Bush administration was invading Iraq?", ">\n\nNo one complains when the Power Rangers destroys the aliens with the Megazord. Good guys get a free pass", ">\n\nIs Germany going to go into Russia and bring these people to justice?\nThe answer is no. This is just (empty) political theatre.", ">\n\nGermany going into Russia is probably the only way Putin could actually still win this war", ">\n\nFinally, someone grew a pair!", ">\n\nIf you didt noticed putin doesn give a fuck", ">\n\nRussia is still one of the Great Powers. Nobody will go to arrest him without taking a nuke to the face.", ">\n\nHuh? It's a regional power at best.", ">\n\nWhat else are there? The US and China are the only Superpowers. The only Great Powers of Europe that remain are because of their militaries including nukes. It is why Germany is no more a great power, and it had no colonies anymore. The UK has its possessions, so do France, and Russia its Near Abroad. Everyone else may have some armies but not nukes enough and no colonies.", ">\n\nOh now there’s consequences? So before now there were no consequences?", ">\n\nNow if only Germany stopped stalling and blocking others from delivering equipment Ukraine needs to make it happen that would be great.", ">\n\nThat'll show him /s", ">\n\nLOL. You let him get away with Crimea. Let's stop play acting.", ">\n\nMust he?...", ">\n\nCriminal ad hoc tribunals are a legal aberration that are prohited by good reason at a national level by most democratic constitutions.\nIt's time to give the International Criminal Court, that was made to prosecute this kind of thing, actual jurisdiction over the world and a way to effectively enforce their judgements.", ">\n\nThey have Jurisdiction in Ukraine, from a Jurisdictional standpoint it isn't a problem really as Ukraine consented to ICC Jurisdiction.", ">\n\nBut not Russia, even if the country came under new management, I have a hard time believing they would allow this.\nCan see someone pulling an Eichmann on them tho.", ">\n\nBetter give tanks to Ukrainians. If Ukraine loose, forget tribunal. Mean time German FM can do something more useful. For example play golf.", ">\n\nThis aggression will not stand, man!", ">\n\nBy the time the debate rages 100 more lives will be lost and thousands will be left in the freezing weather. The priority should be to to stop this .whatever that takes . It is in no one's interest to continue this war.", ">\n\nAll for it. But while we're at it, can we also work on the backlog? Russia's not the first nation to go on unprovoked killing sprees since WW2. Making absolutely sure any tribunal prosecuting those responsible for committing wars of aggression and expansion to increase spheres of influence is seen as utterly impartial to the entire world has to be a priority here, if the desired effect is to prevent more of these behaviours in the future. Which it must, of course. The task is to establish a rule of law based international order again. It won't work, if what really determines whether you'll get trialled is the size of your military and the aggressiveness of your stance. Might as well not bother then, a lot of effort just to end up where we started, at might makes right.", ">\n\nRussia coming with an \"Hague Invasion Act\" bootleg soon^TM", ">\n\nOmg she is stunningly beautiful", ">\n\nThere should be no way this war ends and Russia isn’t completely isolated from normal world society until change occurs, or the current leadership is prosecuted. Meaning for me anyway, that cannot leave Russian territory without the threat of being arrested in nearly every country.\nUnfortunately the Russian people don’t care enough now to remove Putin and his subordinates from power.", ">\n\nGood!!!", ">\n\nThis is all trump's fault. He's the most recent and successful LIAR there's been. He lied his way through the presidency, treated putin like a god, made fake news and disinformation mainstream and almost stole an election he was blown away in. \nputin watched him and realized he can totally bs his way through anything, even more than he already was.\nnow it's happened in Brazil also. thanks trump for studying hitler so closely.\nOh and Mark Zuckerberg. Social Media is going to destroy society person by person if we don't curb it and govern it. It's like screaming fire in a movie theater with 100 million in the audience.", ">\n\nA dumb idea. He'll have nothing to lose by then. Also, these dicks now go to The Hague.", ">\n\nI personally would like Putin to listen to each relative of victims of war from each side, to know how they feel about war, to show photos of killed relatives, to let them speak what they think about Putin. I really want him to know all this and have time to suffer in his sleep.\nHe lives in his bubble for too long.", ">\n\nDamn! Surprisingly hot for a German politician", ">\n\nFuck yeah! Send that bitch to The Hague", ">\n\nTy...", ">\n\nWhichever country in Europe holds the trials will have to bring back the death penalty and hanging...", ">\n\nOh grow up. This is nothing but inept posturing.", ">\n\nBut they will have to roll in with the goon squad and capture him, if they can even find him. It will be a two-way massacre. Maybe an elite clandestine military special forces-type team could infiltrate the country and nab him?", ">\n\nYPU SHOULD THAT with Obama Bush Trump, also, they also invades porro countries", ">\n\nI’m not sure staging a Nuremberg trial in absentia when trying to get both parties to the negotiating table is the best idea.\nYou kinda need to leave some doors open. If you don’t they’ll never have an incentive to deescalate.", ">\n\nHanger doors have been left open. Putin has no interest in peace. Need only to point to the deliberate attacks on civilian structures. The promise to not attack if nuclear weapons were removed. The appeasement by giving control of Crimea only for him to not only slowly move actual border fences but then attack later on.\nHe has shown again and again that his word cannot be trusted.", ">\n\nWell with that position, I’m not sure how this ends without a nuclear exchange eventually.\nAnd trials in absentia are bad optics.", ">\n\nPeace at this point means leave all of Ukraine. Do you really think that if appeasement is made and territory surrendered that Putin will stop there? What will happen is a pause to replenish and reorganize. And then start taking more.\nBad optics? It's not like Putin will just agree to come to trial. Next best thing is absentia. Lay out all the evidence and make a judgement based on that. His mouthpiece will cry foul and deflect like they were going to do regardless of being present or not.\nIf nuclear weapons are used it will be all on Putin. At this point no one else is to blame. Just like the initial invasion. It's not because of the expansion of NATO or any deflection. It's always been him. He is the cause of all this." ]

[ "They can offer Nuremberg. It has the premises ready", ">\n\nWould be truly symbolic, not that there would be any chance to extract Putin and his cronies from Russia, while it still possesses nukes...", ">\n\nThere is certainly a chance. There are 147 million people in the Russian federation. They can throw 147 into the court system. A court system which will give those 147 men the opportunity to defend themselves and to face consequences only for actions which those 147 men are actually guilty of and no more. In exchange Russia gets the opportunity to participate in global civilization and share the freedom and prosperity. If they do not take the offer the Russian people have to languish under the despotism of those same 147 criminals. \nI do not know the odds but they are greater than zero.", ">\n\nI don't mean to shit on your idea because it isn't bad, it's just unrealistic. First off, you know those 147 men would consist of critics of Putin and journalists he was already about to assassinate anyway.\nBut the even bigger issue is the assumption that they would want to participate in this current global civilization. Putin banked all his capital on the \"history is written by the victor\" sentiment, not to mention the shared sentiment with China of forcing their perception on other nations with weaponized hypocrisy.\nPutin will never admit that his invasion failed, or that he committed war crimes or give up land. He wants to fight until the rest of the world is fatigued enough to concede and admit defeat to just end this already.\nAnd while it's definitely a condemnable attitude, he wouldn't stick to this if it weren't normalized in the past. The Crimea has been annexed since 2014, yet it was more convenient for everyone to just agree that \"those aren't Russian army men\" even though of course they were.\nSame with China putting pressure on the West to turn a blind eye on its' many questionable practices.\nYou can't just roll over and allow autocrats to do whatever and then expect them to suddenly respect you.", ">\n\nI meant Putin can be overthrown. The new administration rounds up the former leadership. \n\nYou can't just roll over and allow autocrats to do whatever and then expect them to suddenly respect you.\n\nBut a people can overthrow their autocratic regime and then become a respected nation.", ">\n\nHe can, but if you look at the timeline of the Russian Revolution of 1917 as a timeline, that ain't exactly a quick process either", ">\n\nCall me when they have Putin in custody. \nHe gives zero shits if his top people end up going to prison for war crimes. \nAnd there’s no way the war doesn’t end without:\n\nPutin dead \nPutin negotiating a deal where he never is held personally responsible. \n\nIt’s right in the dictator handbook. If you kill enough people, other countries will offer to give you a pass just to get you to stop.", ">\n\nHes only going to use it as propaganda, like \"evil west wants to judge me for defending mother russia\".", ">\n\nWhile I agree he should be held accountable, what are they going to do? Walk up to the Kremlin with 20 cops knock on the door and arrest him? This is nothing", ">\n\nNo. The Russians will do that.", ">\n\nI’m not 100% sure about that he’s put fear and blind loyalty in the right places", ">\n\nFear yes! Loyalty I'm not so sure. Seems like those most loyal have had some tragic and fatal accidents as of late. Price of failure I guess. But I'm more sure that those that remain are doing so more out of complete fear than anything else. Putin has everyone guessing who is truly loyal that everyone is too afraid to band together with the other fearful to remove him.", ">\n\nNah some of them mf act like golom and vlad is the god damn ring", ">\n\nNuremberg would be a great location.", ">\n\nThis is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 72%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nTHE HAGUE - The international community should establish a special tribunal to bring Russian President Vladimir Putin and his regime to trial over their war of aggression against Ukraine, German Foreign Minister Annalena Baerbock said Monday.\nIn a keynote speech following a visit to the International Criminal Court in The Hague, Baerbock emphasized the need to hold the Russian leadership \"Accountable\" for their invasion, which started almost a year ago.\nTo avoid this impasse, Baerbock said she wanted to form, together with partner countries, \"a special tribunal\" to address the crime of aggression against Ukraine that could investigate and try the Russian leadership.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: international^#1 Court^#2 tribunal^#3 crime^#4 Ukraine^#5", ">\n\nI think that's a fantastic idea.", ">\n\n“This aggression will not stand, man”\n-The Dude\n -Baerbock", ">\n\nPutin's a nihilist?", ">\n\nNoooo funny business, Putbowski", ">\n\nWe ba-lieve in nassing…", ">\n\nI think Putin feels he is above all that, he is untouchable. IMHO the only hope to end the war is for Putin to commit suicide or be assassinated.", ">\n\nKill Putin, someone else will be put in place by the oligarchs. You won't change too much.", ">\n\nI don't think that would happen. The oligarchs likely don't have the megalomaniac inclination Putin has. I don't see them wanting to continue down the road of attaching Ukraine.\nAlthough In the long run, I don't see Russia as becoming a \"nice\" country.", ">\n\nBaerbock proposes special tribunal to fuck the Russian raw", ">\n\nAnnalena is tough, if she could, she would drag Putin by his ear to Nürnberg herself.", ">\n\nShe’s one of the few German politicians I’m really fond of. It’s no wonder why the Greens are doing so well in the polls", ">\n\nMy family keeps hating on her because she misspoke like once or twice in front of the press. They literally do not have one real point of attack, no valid criticism, so they have to resort to personal attacks. It's sad. She's actually quite impressive.", ">\n\nPlagiarized her book? Faked her resume? Spouse became a lobbyist? I mean, she joins a long list of German politicians in these, but she’s not exactly unbefleckt.", ">\n\nWhy stop with Russian leadership? Going after everyone involved in Russian military, logistics, and State media disinformation may have serious affects on there mobilization capacity.", ">\n\nQuestion. What actual crime can they charge Russian State Media personalities with?\nThe West cant find the legal means to deal with sources of misinformation in their own countries, I struggle to see how they can deal with sources of misinformation in another country?", ">\n\nPropaganda organs have been prosecuted as accessory for crimes against humanity in the past.\nThis is actually what the Nuremberg trials were about: how can you proescute a country based on laws that were LEGAL in said country? By which authority do you judge?\nThis is how human rights were even established: laws universial to every human, regardless of national laws. Human laws trump national laws, regardless of where or if that country is not even a signatory to any human rights convention (since there weren't any at the end of WW2).\nAnd this is ALSO why most of the EU has \"anti hate-speech\" laws as they are considered a human rights violation. Or at least as \"preparing the way to make human rights violations acceptable\".", ">\n\nI can see him sitting on a stool without handles to hold on to, in a little glascage, alone, and outside all the people he have singlehanded made widows, childless, fatherless, motherless, quietly starring at him while they each poor a little bottle of water into a hole that slowly fill the cage, staring him right in his scared little face without anyone there to help him, no need for a tribunal...", ">\n\nI hate this kind of talk. due process and a permanent, wide open public record of everything he's responsible for is the way. \nthen Germany can reactivate Spandau for him.", ">\n\nIt's very disturbing how some comments on Reddit really read like some sociopathic behavior. It's not the first time someone promotes torture here.", ">\n\n\nman who lived by the sword is proposed to die by the sword\nNooooo, not the heckin' human rightserinooooos", ">\n\nThat's the point, we need to stay better than those we condemned otherwise we're just hypocrites.", ">\n\nIf that was true, the penalty for forcible confinement couldn't be imprisonment.", ">\n\nThis is a BS idea because “we” will never be able to imprison Putin. He will either be overthrown and die by Russian hands or he will die in Russia as president or with cover from some next dictator.\nGermany needs to stop talking about tribunals and start sending tanks to Ukraine already.Focus on how you can help the Ukrainian people now , don’t offer some utopian solution that has no basis in reality.", ">\n\nIMO there’s a nonzero chance a new Russian leader might hand Putin over to get into the West‘s good graces.", ">\n\nWho might that new leader be? Anyone who has the power to force a change is just as culpable. There is no central opposition to unite and lead the masses so any popular revolt will be picked apart bit by bit.", ">\n\nHey, I never said anything about making actual changes!\nHonestly though: No clue. It's an incredibly unlikely scenario anyways.", ">\n\nPutins gonna get fucked baerbock.", ">\n\nSuch measures are probably counterproductive because it will just make it less likely than Putin will give up and instead will fight to the bitter end.\nOf course such charges could also be negotiated away in order to try to get Putin to give up. Basically if he quits he can go into exile.", ">\n\nWhere was this proposal when the Bush administration was invading Iraq?", ">\n\nNo one complains when the Power Rangers destroys the aliens with the Megazord. Good guys get a free pass", ">\n\nIs Germany going to go into Russia and bring these people to justice?\nThe answer is no. This is just (empty) political theatre.", ">\n\nGermany going into Russia is probably the only way Putin could actually still win this war", ">\n\nFinally, someone grew a pair!", ">\n\nIf you didt noticed putin doesn give a fuck", ">\n\nRussia is still one of the Great Powers. Nobody will go to arrest him without taking a nuke to the face.", ">\n\nHuh? It's a regional power at best.", ">\n\nWhat else are there? The US and China are the only Superpowers. The only Great Powers of Europe that remain are because of their militaries including nukes. It is why Germany is no more a great power, and it had no colonies anymore. The UK has its possessions, so do France, and Russia its Near Abroad. Everyone else may have some armies but not nukes enough and no colonies.", ">\n\nOh now there’s consequences? So before now there were no consequences?", ">\n\nNow if only Germany stopped stalling and blocking others from delivering equipment Ukraine needs to make it happen that would be great.", ">\n\nThat'll show him /s", ">\n\nLOL. You let him get away with Crimea. Let's stop play acting.", ">\n\nMust he?...", ">\n\nCriminal ad hoc tribunals are a legal aberration that are prohited by good reason at a national level by most democratic constitutions.\nIt's time to give the International Criminal Court, that was made to prosecute this kind of thing, actual jurisdiction over the world and a way to effectively enforce their judgements.", ">\n\nThey have Jurisdiction in Ukraine, from a Jurisdictional standpoint it isn't a problem really as Ukraine consented to ICC Jurisdiction.", ">\n\nBut not Russia, even if the country came under new management, I have a hard time believing they would allow this.\nCan see someone pulling an Eichmann on them tho.", ">\n\nBetter give tanks to Ukrainians. If Ukraine loose, forget tribunal. Mean time German FM can do something more useful. For example play golf.", ">\n\nThis aggression will not stand, man!", ">\n\nBy the time the debate rages 100 more lives will be lost and thousands will be left in the freezing weather. The priority should be to to stop this .whatever that takes . It is in no one's interest to continue this war.", ">\n\nAll for it. But while we're at it, can we also work on the backlog? Russia's not the first nation to go on unprovoked killing sprees since WW2. Making absolutely sure any tribunal prosecuting those responsible for committing wars of aggression and expansion to increase spheres of influence is seen as utterly impartial to the entire world has to be a priority here, if the desired effect is to prevent more of these behaviours in the future. Which it must, of course. The task is to establish a rule of law based international order again. It won't work, if what really determines whether you'll get trialled is the size of your military and the aggressiveness of your stance. Might as well not bother then, a lot of effort just to end up where we started, at might makes right.", ">\n\nRussia coming with an \"Hague Invasion Act\" bootleg soon^TM", ">\n\nOmg she is stunningly beautiful", ">\n\nThere should be no way this war ends and Russia isn’t completely isolated from normal world society until change occurs, or the current leadership is prosecuted. Meaning for me anyway, that cannot leave Russian territory without the threat of being arrested in nearly every country.\nUnfortunately the Russian people don’t care enough now to remove Putin and his subordinates from power.", ">\n\nGood!!!", ">\n\nThis is all trump's fault. He's the most recent and successful LIAR there's been. He lied his way through the presidency, treated putin like a god, made fake news and disinformation mainstream and almost stole an election he was blown away in. \nputin watched him and realized he can totally bs his way through anything, even more than he already was.\nnow it's happened in Brazil also. thanks trump for studying hitler so closely.\nOh and Mark Zuckerberg. Social Media is going to destroy society person by person if we don't curb it and govern it. It's like screaming fire in a movie theater with 100 million in the audience.", ">\n\nA dumb idea. He'll have nothing to lose by then. Also, these dicks now go to The Hague.", ">\n\nI personally would like Putin to listen to each relative of victims of war from each side, to know how they feel about war, to show photos of killed relatives, to let them speak what they think about Putin. I really want him to know all this and have time to suffer in his sleep.\nHe lives in his bubble for too long.", ">\n\nDamn! Surprisingly hot for a German politician", ">\n\nFuck yeah! Send that bitch to The Hague", ">\n\nTy...", ">\n\nWhichever country in Europe holds the trials will have to bring back the death penalty and hanging...", ">\n\nOh grow up. This is nothing but inept posturing.", ">\n\nBut they will have to roll in with the goon squad and capture him, if they can even find him. It will be a two-way massacre. Maybe an elite clandestine military special forces-type team could infiltrate the country and nab him?", ">\n\nYPU SHOULD THAT with Obama Bush Trump, also, they also invades porro countries", ">\n\nI’m not sure staging a Nuremberg trial in absentia when trying to get both parties to the negotiating table is the best idea.\nYou kinda need to leave some doors open. If you don’t they’ll never have an incentive to deescalate.", ">\n\nHanger doors have been left open. Putin has no interest in peace. Need only to point to the deliberate attacks on civilian structures. The promise to not attack if nuclear weapons were removed. The appeasement by giving control of Crimea only for him to not only slowly move actual border fences but then attack later on.\nHe has shown again and again that his word cannot be trusted.", ">\n\nWell with that position, I’m not sure how this ends without a nuclear exchange eventually.\nAnd trials in absentia are bad optics.", ">\n\nPeace at this point means leave all of Ukraine. Do you really think that if appeasement is made and territory surrendered that Putin will stop there? What will happen is a pause to replenish and reorganize. And then start taking more.\nBad optics? It's not like Putin will just agree to come to trial. Next best thing is absentia. Lay out all the evidence and make a judgement based on that. His mouthpiece will cry foul and deflect like they were going to do regardless of being present or not.\nIf nuclear weapons are used it will be all on Putin. At this point no one else is to blame. Just like the initial invasion. It's not because of the expansion of NATO or any deflection. It's always been him. He is the cause of all this.", ">\n\nThe trial is for optics in the first place. So yea if the primary purpose is optics and it’s bad optics… doesn’t make sense.\nIf nuclear weapons are used it doesn’t matter who is to blame. I mean you can blame Putin all you want in your post apocalyptic hovel…" ]

[ "They can offer Nuremberg. It has the premises ready", ">\n\nWould be truly symbolic, not that there would be any chance to extract Putin and his cronies from Russia, while it still possesses nukes...", ">\n\nThere is certainly a chance. There are 147 million people in the Russian federation. They can throw 147 into the court system. A court system which will give those 147 men the opportunity to defend themselves and to face consequences only for actions which those 147 men are actually guilty of and no more. In exchange Russia gets the opportunity to participate in global civilization and share the freedom and prosperity. If they do not take the offer the Russian people have to languish under the despotism of those same 147 criminals. \nI do not know the odds but they are greater than zero.", ">\n\nI don't mean to shit on your idea because it isn't bad, it's just unrealistic. First off, you know those 147 men would consist of critics of Putin and journalists he was already about to assassinate anyway.\nBut the even bigger issue is the assumption that they would want to participate in this current global civilization. Putin banked all his capital on the \"history is written by the victor\" sentiment, not to mention the shared sentiment with China of forcing their perception on other nations with weaponized hypocrisy.\nPutin will never admit that his invasion failed, or that he committed war crimes or give up land. He wants to fight until the rest of the world is fatigued enough to concede and admit defeat to just end this already.\nAnd while it's definitely a condemnable attitude, he wouldn't stick to this if it weren't normalized in the past. The Crimea has been annexed since 2014, yet it was more convenient for everyone to just agree that \"those aren't Russian army men\" even though of course they were.\nSame with China putting pressure on the West to turn a blind eye on its' many questionable practices.\nYou can't just roll over and allow autocrats to do whatever and then expect them to suddenly respect you.", ">\n\nI meant Putin can be overthrown. The new administration rounds up the former leadership. \n\nYou can't just roll over and allow autocrats to do whatever and then expect them to suddenly respect you.\n\nBut a people can overthrow their autocratic regime and then become a respected nation.", ">\n\nHe can, but if you look at the timeline of the Russian Revolution of 1917 as a timeline, that ain't exactly a quick process either", ">\n\nCall me when they have Putin in custody. \nHe gives zero shits if his top people end up going to prison for war crimes. \nAnd there’s no way the war doesn’t end without:\n\nPutin dead \nPutin negotiating a deal where he never is held personally responsible. \n\nIt’s right in the dictator handbook. If you kill enough people, other countries will offer to give you a pass just to get you to stop.", ">\n\nHes only going to use it as propaganda, like \"evil west wants to judge me for defending mother russia\".", ">\n\nWhile I agree he should be held accountable, what are they going to do? Walk up to the Kremlin with 20 cops knock on the door and arrest him? This is nothing", ">\n\nNo. The Russians will do that.", ">\n\nI’m not 100% sure about that he’s put fear and blind loyalty in the right places", ">\n\nFear yes! Loyalty I'm not so sure. Seems like those most loyal have had some tragic and fatal accidents as of late. Price of failure I guess. But I'm more sure that those that remain are doing so more out of complete fear than anything else. Putin has everyone guessing who is truly loyal that everyone is too afraid to band together with the other fearful to remove him.", ">\n\nNah some of them mf act like golom and vlad is the god damn ring", ">\n\nNuremberg would be a great location.", ">\n\nThis is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 72%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nTHE HAGUE - The international community should establish a special tribunal to bring Russian President Vladimir Putin and his regime to trial over their war of aggression against Ukraine, German Foreign Minister Annalena Baerbock said Monday.\nIn a keynote speech following a visit to the International Criminal Court in The Hague, Baerbock emphasized the need to hold the Russian leadership \"Accountable\" for their invasion, which started almost a year ago.\nTo avoid this impasse, Baerbock said she wanted to form, together with partner countries, \"a special tribunal\" to address the crime of aggression against Ukraine that could investigate and try the Russian leadership.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: international^#1 Court^#2 tribunal^#3 crime^#4 Ukraine^#5", ">\n\nI think that's a fantastic idea.", ">\n\n“This aggression will not stand, man”\n-The Dude\n -Baerbock", ">\n\nPutin's a nihilist?", ">\n\nNoooo funny business, Putbowski", ">\n\nWe ba-lieve in nassing…", ">\n\nI think Putin feels he is above all that, he is untouchable. IMHO the only hope to end the war is for Putin to commit suicide or be assassinated.", ">\n\nKill Putin, someone else will be put in place by the oligarchs. You won't change too much.", ">\n\nI don't think that would happen. The oligarchs likely don't have the megalomaniac inclination Putin has. I don't see them wanting to continue down the road of attaching Ukraine.\nAlthough In the long run, I don't see Russia as becoming a \"nice\" country.", ">\n\nBaerbock proposes special tribunal to fuck the Russian raw", ">\n\nAnnalena is tough, if she could, she would drag Putin by his ear to Nürnberg herself.", ">\n\nShe’s one of the few German politicians I’m really fond of. It’s no wonder why the Greens are doing so well in the polls", ">\n\nMy family keeps hating on her because she misspoke like once or twice in front of the press. They literally do not have one real point of attack, no valid criticism, so they have to resort to personal attacks. It's sad. She's actually quite impressive.", ">\n\nPlagiarized her book? Faked her resume? Spouse became a lobbyist? I mean, she joins a long list of German politicians in these, but she’s not exactly unbefleckt.", ">\n\nWhy stop with Russian leadership? Going after everyone involved in Russian military, logistics, and State media disinformation may have serious affects on there mobilization capacity.", ">\n\nQuestion. What actual crime can they charge Russian State Media personalities with?\nThe West cant find the legal means to deal with sources of misinformation in their own countries, I struggle to see how they can deal with sources of misinformation in another country?", ">\n\nPropaganda organs have been prosecuted as accessory for crimes against humanity in the past.\nThis is actually what the Nuremberg trials were about: how can you proescute a country based on laws that were LEGAL in said country? By which authority do you judge?\nThis is how human rights were even established: laws universial to every human, regardless of national laws. Human laws trump national laws, regardless of where or if that country is not even a signatory to any human rights convention (since there weren't any at the end of WW2).\nAnd this is ALSO why most of the EU has \"anti hate-speech\" laws as they are considered a human rights violation. Or at least as \"preparing the way to make human rights violations acceptable\".", ">\n\nI can see him sitting on a stool without handles to hold on to, in a little glascage, alone, and outside all the people he have singlehanded made widows, childless, fatherless, motherless, quietly starring at him while they each poor a little bottle of water into a hole that slowly fill the cage, staring him right in his scared little face without anyone there to help him, no need for a tribunal...", ">\n\nI hate this kind of talk. due process and a permanent, wide open public record of everything he's responsible for is the way. \nthen Germany can reactivate Spandau for him.", ">\n\nIt's very disturbing how some comments on Reddit really read like some sociopathic behavior. It's not the first time someone promotes torture here.", ">\n\n\nman who lived by the sword is proposed to die by the sword\nNooooo, not the heckin' human rightserinooooos", ">\n\nThat's the point, we need to stay better than those we condemned otherwise we're just hypocrites.", ">\n\nIf that was true, the penalty for forcible confinement couldn't be imprisonment.", ">\n\nThis is a BS idea because “we” will never be able to imprison Putin. He will either be overthrown and die by Russian hands or he will die in Russia as president or with cover from some next dictator.\nGermany needs to stop talking about tribunals and start sending tanks to Ukraine already.Focus on how you can help the Ukrainian people now , don’t offer some utopian solution that has no basis in reality.", ">\n\nIMO there’s a nonzero chance a new Russian leader might hand Putin over to get into the West‘s good graces.", ">\n\nWho might that new leader be? Anyone who has the power to force a change is just as culpable. There is no central opposition to unite and lead the masses so any popular revolt will be picked apart bit by bit.", ">\n\nHey, I never said anything about making actual changes!\nHonestly though: No clue. It's an incredibly unlikely scenario anyways.", ">\n\nPutins gonna get fucked baerbock.", ">\n\nSuch measures are probably counterproductive because it will just make it less likely than Putin will give up and instead will fight to the bitter end.\nOf course such charges could also be negotiated away in order to try to get Putin to give up. Basically if he quits he can go into exile.", ">\n\nWhere was this proposal when the Bush administration was invading Iraq?", ">\n\nNo one complains when the Power Rangers destroys the aliens with the Megazord. Good guys get a free pass", ">\n\nIs Germany going to go into Russia and bring these people to justice?\nThe answer is no. This is just (empty) political theatre.", ">\n\nGermany going into Russia is probably the only way Putin could actually still win this war", ">\n\nFinally, someone grew a pair!", ">\n\nIf you didt noticed putin doesn give a fuck", ">\n\nRussia is still one of the Great Powers. Nobody will go to arrest him without taking a nuke to the face.", ">\n\nHuh? It's a regional power at best.", ">\n\nWhat else are there? The US and China are the only Superpowers. The only Great Powers of Europe that remain are because of their militaries including nukes. It is why Germany is no more a great power, and it had no colonies anymore. The UK has its possessions, so do France, and Russia its Near Abroad. Everyone else may have some armies but not nukes enough and no colonies.", ">\n\nOh now there’s consequences? So before now there were no consequences?", ">\n\nNow if only Germany stopped stalling and blocking others from delivering equipment Ukraine needs to make it happen that would be great.", ">\n\nThat'll show him /s", ">\n\nLOL. You let him get away with Crimea. Let's stop play acting.", ">\n\nMust he?...", ">\n\nCriminal ad hoc tribunals are a legal aberration that are prohited by good reason at a national level by most democratic constitutions.\nIt's time to give the International Criminal Court, that was made to prosecute this kind of thing, actual jurisdiction over the world and a way to effectively enforce their judgements.", ">\n\nThey have Jurisdiction in Ukraine, from a Jurisdictional standpoint it isn't a problem really as Ukraine consented to ICC Jurisdiction.", ">\n\nBut not Russia, even if the country came under new management, I have a hard time believing they would allow this.\nCan see someone pulling an Eichmann on them tho.", ">\n\nBetter give tanks to Ukrainians. If Ukraine loose, forget tribunal. Mean time German FM can do something more useful. For example play golf.", ">\n\nThis aggression will not stand, man!", ">\n\nBy the time the debate rages 100 more lives will be lost and thousands will be left in the freezing weather. The priority should be to to stop this .whatever that takes . It is in no one's interest to continue this war.", ">\n\nAll for it. But while we're at it, can we also work on the backlog? Russia's not the first nation to go on unprovoked killing sprees since WW2. Making absolutely sure any tribunal prosecuting those responsible for committing wars of aggression and expansion to increase spheres of influence is seen as utterly impartial to the entire world has to be a priority here, if the desired effect is to prevent more of these behaviours in the future. Which it must, of course. The task is to establish a rule of law based international order again. It won't work, if what really determines whether you'll get trialled is the size of your military and the aggressiveness of your stance. Might as well not bother then, a lot of effort just to end up where we started, at might makes right.", ">\n\nRussia coming with an \"Hague Invasion Act\" bootleg soon^TM", ">\n\nOmg she is stunningly beautiful", ">\n\nThere should be no way this war ends and Russia isn’t completely isolated from normal world society until change occurs, or the current leadership is prosecuted. Meaning for me anyway, that cannot leave Russian territory without the threat of being arrested in nearly every country.\nUnfortunately the Russian people don’t care enough now to remove Putin and his subordinates from power.", ">\n\nGood!!!", ">\n\nThis is all trump's fault. He's the most recent and successful LIAR there's been. He lied his way through the presidency, treated putin like a god, made fake news and disinformation mainstream and almost stole an election he was blown away in. \nputin watched him and realized he can totally bs his way through anything, even more than he already was.\nnow it's happened in Brazil also. thanks trump for studying hitler so closely.\nOh and Mark Zuckerberg. Social Media is going to destroy society person by person if we don't curb it and govern it. It's like screaming fire in a movie theater with 100 million in the audience.", ">\n\nA dumb idea. He'll have nothing to lose by then. Also, these dicks now go to The Hague.", ">\n\nI personally would like Putin to listen to each relative of victims of war from each side, to know how they feel about war, to show photos of killed relatives, to let them speak what they think about Putin. I really want him to know all this and have time to suffer in his sleep.\nHe lives in his bubble for too long.", ">\n\nDamn! Surprisingly hot for a German politician", ">\n\nFuck yeah! Send that bitch to The Hague", ">\n\nTy...", ">\n\nWhichever country in Europe holds the trials will have to bring back the death penalty and hanging...", ">\n\nOh grow up. This is nothing but inept posturing.", ">\n\nBut they will have to roll in with the goon squad and capture him, if they can even find him. It will be a two-way massacre. Maybe an elite clandestine military special forces-type team could infiltrate the country and nab him?", ">\n\nYPU SHOULD THAT with Obama Bush Trump, also, they also invades porro countries", ">\n\nI’m not sure staging a Nuremberg trial in absentia when trying to get both parties to the negotiating table is the best idea.\nYou kinda need to leave some doors open. If you don’t they’ll never have an incentive to deescalate.", ">\n\nHanger doors have been left open. Putin has no interest in peace. Need only to point to the deliberate attacks on civilian structures. The promise to not attack if nuclear weapons were removed. The appeasement by giving control of Crimea only for him to not only slowly move actual border fences but then attack later on.\nHe has shown again and again that his word cannot be trusted.", ">\n\nWell with that position, I’m not sure how this ends without a nuclear exchange eventually.\nAnd trials in absentia are bad optics.", ">\n\nPeace at this point means leave all of Ukraine. Do you really think that if appeasement is made and territory surrendered that Putin will stop there? What will happen is a pause to replenish and reorganize. And then start taking more.\nBad optics? It's not like Putin will just agree to come to trial. Next best thing is absentia. Lay out all the evidence and make a judgement based on that. His mouthpiece will cry foul and deflect like they were going to do regardless of being present or not.\nIf nuclear weapons are used it will be all on Putin. At this point no one else is to blame. Just like the initial invasion. It's not because of the expansion of NATO or any deflection. It's always been him. He is the cause of all this.", ">\n\nThe trial is for optics in the first place. So yea if the primary purpose is optics and it’s bad optics… doesn’t make sense.\nIf nuclear weapons are used it doesn’t matter who is to blame. I mean you can blame Putin all you want in your post apocalyptic hovel…", ">\n\nWords are wind" ]

[ "They can offer Nuremberg. It has the premises ready", ">\n\nWould be truly symbolic, not that there would be any chance to extract Putin and his cronies from Russia, while it still possesses nukes...", ">\n\nThere is certainly a chance. There are 147 million people in the Russian federation. They can throw 147 into the court system. A court system which will give those 147 men the opportunity to defend themselves and to face consequences only for actions which those 147 men are actually guilty of and no more. In exchange Russia gets the opportunity to participate in global civilization and share the freedom and prosperity. If they do not take the offer the Russian people have to languish under the despotism of those same 147 criminals. \nI do not know the odds but they are greater than zero.", ">\n\nI don't mean to shit on your idea because it isn't bad, it's just unrealistic. First off, you know those 147 men would consist of critics of Putin and journalists he was already about to assassinate anyway.\nBut the even bigger issue is the assumption that they would want to participate in this current global civilization. Putin banked all his capital on the \"history is written by the victor\" sentiment, not to mention the shared sentiment with China of forcing their perception on other nations with weaponized hypocrisy.\nPutin will never admit that his invasion failed, or that he committed war crimes or give up land. He wants to fight until the rest of the world is fatigued enough to concede and admit defeat to just end this already.\nAnd while it's definitely a condemnable attitude, he wouldn't stick to this if it weren't normalized in the past. The Crimea has been annexed since 2014, yet it was more convenient for everyone to just agree that \"those aren't Russian army men\" even though of course they were.\nSame with China putting pressure on the West to turn a blind eye on its' many questionable practices.\nYou can't just roll over and allow autocrats to do whatever and then expect them to suddenly respect you.", ">\n\nI meant Putin can be overthrown. The new administration rounds up the former leadership. \n\nYou can't just roll over and allow autocrats to do whatever and then expect them to suddenly respect you.\n\nBut a people can overthrow their autocratic regime and then become a respected nation.", ">\n\nHe can, but if you look at the timeline of the Russian Revolution of 1917 as a timeline, that ain't exactly a quick process either", ">\n\nCall me when they have Putin in custody. \nHe gives zero shits if his top people end up going to prison for war crimes. \nAnd there’s no way the war doesn’t end without:\n\nPutin dead \nPutin negotiating a deal where he never is held personally responsible. \n\nIt’s right in the dictator handbook. If you kill enough people, other countries will offer to give you a pass just to get you to stop.", ">\n\nHes only going to use it as propaganda, like \"evil west wants to judge me for defending mother russia\".", ">\n\nWhile I agree he should be held accountable, what are they going to do? Walk up to the Kremlin with 20 cops knock on the door and arrest him? This is nothing", ">\n\nNo. The Russians will do that.", ">\n\nI’m not 100% sure about that he’s put fear and blind loyalty in the right places", ">\n\nFear yes! Loyalty I'm not so sure. Seems like those most loyal have had some tragic and fatal accidents as of late. Price of failure I guess. But I'm more sure that those that remain are doing so more out of complete fear than anything else. Putin has everyone guessing who is truly loyal that everyone is too afraid to band together with the other fearful to remove him.", ">\n\nNah some of them mf act like golom and vlad is the god damn ring", ">\n\nNuremberg would be a great location.", ">\n\nThis is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 72%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nTHE HAGUE - The international community should establish a special tribunal to bring Russian President Vladimir Putin and his regime to trial over their war of aggression against Ukraine, German Foreign Minister Annalena Baerbock said Monday.\nIn a keynote speech following a visit to the International Criminal Court in The Hague, Baerbock emphasized the need to hold the Russian leadership \"Accountable\" for their invasion, which started almost a year ago.\nTo avoid this impasse, Baerbock said she wanted to form, together with partner countries, \"a special tribunal\" to address the crime of aggression against Ukraine that could investigate and try the Russian leadership.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: international^#1 Court^#2 tribunal^#3 crime^#4 Ukraine^#5", ">\n\nI think that's a fantastic idea.", ">\n\n“This aggression will not stand, man”\n-The Dude\n -Baerbock", ">\n\nPutin's a nihilist?", ">\n\nNoooo funny business, Putbowski", ">\n\nWe ba-lieve in nassing…", ">\n\nI think Putin feels he is above all that, he is untouchable. IMHO the only hope to end the war is for Putin to commit suicide or be assassinated.", ">\n\nKill Putin, someone else will be put in place by the oligarchs. You won't change too much.", ">\n\nI don't think that would happen. The oligarchs likely don't have the megalomaniac inclination Putin has. I don't see them wanting to continue down the road of attaching Ukraine.\nAlthough In the long run, I don't see Russia as becoming a \"nice\" country.", ">\n\nBaerbock proposes special tribunal to fuck the Russian raw", ">\n\nAnnalena is tough, if she could, she would drag Putin by his ear to Nürnberg herself.", ">\n\nShe’s one of the few German politicians I’m really fond of. It’s no wonder why the Greens are doing so well in the polls", ">\n\nMy family keeps hating on her because she misspoke like once or twice in front of the press. They literally do not have one real point of attack, no valid criticism, so they have to resort to personal attacks. It's sad. She's actually quite impressive.", ">\n\nPlagiarized her book? Faked her resume? Spouse became a lobbyist? I mean, she joins a long list of German politicians in these, but she’s not exactly unbefleckt.", ">\n\nWhy stop with Russian leadership? Going after everyone involved in Russian military, logistics, and State media disinformation may have serious affects on there mobilization capacity.", ">\n\nQuestion. What actual crime can they charge Russian State Media personalities with?\nThe West cant find the legal means to deal with sources of misinformation in their own countries, I struggle to see how they can deal with sources of misinformation in another country?", ">\n\nPropaganda organs have been prosecuted as accessory for crimes against humanity in the past.\nThis is actually what the Nuremberg trials were about: how can you proescute a country based on laws that were LEGAL in said country? By which authority do you judge?\nThis is how human rights were even established: laws universial to every human, regardless of national laws. Human laws trump national laws, regardless of where or if that country is not even a signatory to any human rights convention (since there weren't any at the end of WW2).\nAnd this is ALSO why most of the EU has \"anti hate-speech\" laws as they are considered a human rights violation. Or at least as \"preparing the way to make human rights violations acceptable\".", ">\n\nI can see him sitting on a stool without handles to hold on to, in a little glascage, alone, and outside all the people he have singlehanded made widows, childless, fatherless, motherless, quietly starring at him while they each poor a little bottle of water into a hole that slowly fill the cage, staring him right in his scared little face without anyone there to help him, no need for a tribunal...", ">\n\nI hate this kind of talk. due process and a permanent, wide open public record of everything he's responsible for is the way. \nthen Germany can reactivate Spandau for him.", ">\n\nIt's very disturbing how some comments on Reddit really read like some sociopathic behavior. It's not the first time someone promotes torture here.", ">\n\n\nman who lived by the sword is proposed to die by the sword\nNooooo, not the heckin' human rightserinooooos", ">\n\nThat's the point, we need to stay better than those we condemned otherwise we're just hypocrites.", ">\n\nIf that was true, the penalty for forcible confinement couldn't be imprisonment.", ">\n\nThis is a BS idea because “we” will never be able to imprison Putin. He will either be overthrown and die by Russian hands or he will die in Russia as president or with cover from some next dictator.\nGermany needs to stop talking about tribunals and start sending tanks to Ukraine already.Focus on how you can help the Ukrainian people now , don’t offer some utopian solution that has no basis in reality.", ">\n\nIMO there’s a nonzero chance a new Russian leader might hand Putin over to get into the West‘s good graces.", ">\n\nWho might that new leader be? Anyone who has the power to force a change is just as culpable. There is no central opposition to unite and lead the masses so any popular revolt will be picked apart bit by bit.", ">\n\nHey, I never said anything about making actual changes!\nHonestly though: No clue. It's an incredibly unlikely scenario anyways.", ">\n\nPutins gonna get fucked baerbock.", ">\n\nSuch measures are probably counterproductive because it will just make it less likely than Putin will give up and instead will fight to the bitter end.\nOf course such charges could also be negotiated away in order to try to get Putin to give up. Basically if he quits he can go into exile.", ">\n\nWhere was this proposal when the Bush administration was invading Iraq?", ">\n\nNo one complains when the Power Rangers destroys the aliens with the Megazord. Good guys get a free pass", ">\n\nIs Germany going to go into Russia and bring these people to justice?\nThe answer is no. This is just (empty) political theatre.", ">\n\nGermany going into Russia is probably the only way Putin could actually still win this war", ">\n\nFinally, someone grew a pair!", ">\n\nIf you didt noticed putin doesn give a fuck", ">\n\nRussia is still one of the Great Powers. Nobody will go to arrest him without taking a nuke to the face.", ">\n\nHuh? It's a regional power at best.", ">\n\nWhat else are there? The US and China are the only Superpowers. The only Great Powers of Europe that remain are because of their militaries including nukes. It is why Germany is no more a great power, and it had no colonies anymore. The UK has its possessions, so do France, and Russia its Near Abroad. Everyone else may have some armies but not nukes enough and no colonies.", ">\n\nOh now there’s consequences? So before now there were no consequences?", ">\n\nNow if only Germany stopped stalling and blocking others from delivering equipment Ukraine needs to make it happen that would be great.", ">\n\nThat'll show him /s", ">\n\nLOL. You let him get away with Crimea. Let's stop play acting.", ">\n\nMust he?...", ">\n\nCriminal ad hoc tribunals are a legal aberration that are prohited by good reason at a national level by most democratic constitutions.\nIt's time to give the International Criminal Court, that was made to prosecute this kind of thing, actual jurisdiction over the world and a way to effectively enforce their judgements.", ">\n\nThey have Jurisdiction in Ukraine, from a Jurisdictional standpoint it isn't a problem really as Ukraine consented to ICC Jurisdiction.", ">\n\nBut not Russia, even if the country came under new management, I have a hard time believing they would allow this.\nCan see someone pulling an Eichmann on them tho.", ">\n\nBetter give tanks to Ukrainians. If Ukraine loose, forget tribunal. Mean time German FM can do something more useful. For example play golf.", ">\n\nThis aggression will not stand, man!", ">\n\nBy the time the debate rages 100 more lives will be lost and thousands will be left in the freezing weather. The priority should be to to stop this .whatever that takes . It is in no one's interest to continue this war.", ">\n\nAll for it. But while we're at it, can we also work on the backlog? Russia's not the first nation to go on unprovoked killing sprees since WW2. Making absolutely sure any tribunal prosecuting those responsible for committing wars of aggression and expansion to increase spheres of influence is seen as utterly impartial to the entire world has to be a priority here, if the desired effect is to prevent more of these behaviours in the future. Which it must, of course. The task is to establish a rule of law based international order again. It won't work, if what really determines whether you'll get trialled is the size of your military and the aggressiveness of your stance. Might as well not bother then, a lot of effort just to end up where we started, at might makes right.", ">\n\nRussia coming with an \"Hague Invasion Act\" bootleg soon^TM", ">\n\nOmg she is stunningly beautiful", ">\n\nThere should be no way this war ends and Russia isn’t completely isolated from normal world society until change occurs, or the current leadership is prosecuted. Meaning for me anyway, that cannot leave Russian territory without the threat of being arrested in nearly every country.\nUnfortunately the Russian people don’t care enough now to remove Putin and his subordinates from power.", ">\n\nGood!!!", ">\n\nThis is all trump's fault. He's the most recent and successful LIAR there's been. He lied his way through the presidency, treated putin like a god, made fake news and disinformation mainstream and almost stole an election he was blown away in. \nputin watched him and realized he can totally bs his way through anything, even more than he already was.\nnow it's happened in Brazil also. thanks trump for studying hitler so closely.\nOh and Mark Zuckerberg. Social Media is going to destroy society person by person if we don't curb it and govern it. It's like screaming fire in a movie theater with 100 million in the audience.", ">\n\nA dumb idea. He'll have nothing to lose by then. Also, these dicks now go to The Hague.", ">\n\nI personally would like Putin to listen to each relative of victims of war from each side, to know how they feel about war, to show photos of killed relatives, to let them speak what they think about Putin. I really want him to know all this and have time to suffer in his sleep.\nHe lives in his bubble for too long.", ">\n\nDamn! Surprisingly hot for a German politician", ">\n\nFuck yeah! Send that bitch to The Hague", ">\n\nTy...", ">\n\nWhichever country in Europe holds the trials will have to bring back the death penalty and hanging...", ">\n\nOh grow up. This is nothing but inept posturing.", ">\n\nBut they will have to roll in with the goon squad and capture him, if they can even find him. It will be a two-way massacre. Maybe an elite clandestine military special forces-type team could infiltrate the country and nab him?", ">\n\nYPU SHOULD THAT with Obama Bush Trump, also, they also invades porro countries", ">\n\nI’m not sure staging a Nuremberg trial in absentia when trying to get both parties to the negotiating table is the best idea.\nYou kinda need to leave some doors open. If you don’t they’ll never have an incentive to deescalate.", ">\n\nHanger doors have been left open. Putin has no interest in peace. Need only to point to the deliberate attacks on civilian structures. The promise to not attack if nuclear weapons were removed. The appeasement by giving control of Crimea only for him to not only slowly move actual border fences but then attack later on.\nHe has shown again and again that his word cannot be trusted.", ">\n\nWell with that position, I’m not sure how this ends without a nuclear exchange eventually.\nAnd trials in absentia are bad optics.", ">\n\nPeace at this point means leave all of Ukraine. Do you really think that if appeasement is made and territory surrendered that Putin will stop there? What will happen is a pause to replenish and reorganize. And then start taking more.\nBad optics? It's not like Putin will just agree to come to trial. Next best thing is absentia. Lay out all the evidence and make a judgement based on that. His mouthpiece will cry foul and deflect like they were going to do regardless of being present or not.\nIf nuclear weapons are used it will be all on Putin. At this point no one else is to blame. Just like the initial invasion. It's not because of the expansion of NATO or any deflection. It's always been him. He is the cause of all this.", ">\n\nThe trial is for optics in the first place. So yea if the primary purpose is optics and it’s bad optics… doesn’t make sense.\nIf nuclear weapons are used it doesn’t matter who is to blame. I mean you can blame Putin all you want in your post apocalyptic hovel…", ">\n\nWords are wind", ">\n\nFrist do USA for irak!" ]

[ "They can offer Nuremberg. It has the premises ready", ">\n\nWould be truly symbolic, not that there would be any chance to extract Putin and his cronies from Russia, while it still possesses nukes...", ">\n\nThere is certainly a chance. There are 147 million people in the Russian federation. They can throw 147 into the court system. A court system which will give those 147 men the opportunity to defend themselves and to face consequences only for actions which those 147 men are actually guilty of and no more. In exchange Russia gets the opportunity to participate in global civilization and share the freedom and prosperity. If they do not take the offer the Russian people have to languish under the despotism of those same 147 criminals. \nI do not know the odds but they are greater than zero.", ">\n\nI don't mean to shit on your idea because it isn't bad, it's just unrealistic. First off, you know those 147 men would consist of critics of Putin and journalists he was already about to assassinate anyway.\nBut the even bigger issue is the assumption that they would want to participate in this current global civilization. Putin banked all his capital on the \"history is written by the victor\" sentiment, not to mention the shared sentiment with China of forcing their perception on other nations with weaponized hypocrisy.\nPutin will never admit that his invasion failed, or that he committed war crimes or give up land. He wants to fight until the rest of the world is fatigued enough to concede and admit defeat to just end this already.\nAnd while it's definitely a condemnable attitude, he wouldn't stick to this if it weren't normalized in the past. The Crimea has been annexed since 2014, yet it was more convenient for everyone to just agree that \"those aren't Russian army men\" even though of course they were.\nSame with China putting pressure on the West to turn a blind eye on its' many questionable practices.\nYou can't just roll over and allow autocrats to do whatever and then expect them to suddenly respect you.", ">\n\nI meant Putin can be overthrown. The new administration rounds up the former leadership. \n\nYou can't just roll over and allow autocrats to do whatever and then expect them to suddenly respect you.\n\nBut a people can overthrow their autocratic regime and then become a respected nation.", ">\n\nHe can, but if you look at the timeline of the Russian Revolution of 1917 as a timeline, that ain't exactly a quick process either", ">\n\nCall me when they have Putin in custody. \nHe gives zero shits if his top people end up going to prison for war crimes. \nAnd there’s no way the war doesn’t end without:\n\nPutin dead \nPutin negotiating a deal where he never is held personally responsible. \n\nIt’s right in the dictator handbook. If you kill enough people, other countries will offer to give you a pass just to get you to stop.", ">\n\nHes only going to use it as propaganda, like \"evil west wants to judge me for defending mother russia\".", ">\n\nWhile I agree he should be held accountable, what are they going to do? Walk up to the Kremlin with 20 cops knock on the door and arrest him? This is nothing", ">\n\nNo. The Russians will do that.", ">\n\nI’m not 100% sure about that he’s put fear and blind loyalty in the right places", ">\n\nFear yes! Loyalty I'm not so sure. Seems like those most loyal have had some tragic and fatal accidents as of late. Price of failure I guess. But I'm more sure that those that remain are doing so more out of complete fear than anything else. Putin has everyone guessing who is truly loyal that everyone is too afraid to band together with the other fearful to remove him.", ">\n\nNah some of them mf act like golom and vlad is the god damn ring", ">\n\nNuremberg would be a great location.", ">\n\nThis is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 72%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nTHE HAGUE - The international community should establish a special tribunal to bring Russian President Vladimir Putin and his regime to trial over their war of aggression against Ukraine, German Foreign Minister Annalena Baerbock said Monday.\nIn a keynote speech following a visit to the International Criminal Court in The Hague, Baerbock emphasized the need to hold the Russian leadership \"Accountable\" for their invasion, which started almost a year ago.\nTo avoid this impasse, Baerbock said she wanted to form, together with partner countries, \"a special tribunal\" to address the crime of aggression against Ukraine that could investigate and try the Russian leadership.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: international^#1 Court^#2 tribunal^#3 crime^#4 Ukraine^#5", ">\n\nI think that's a fantastic idea.", ">\n\n“This aggression will not stand, man”\n-The Dude\n -Baerbock", ">\n\nPutin's a nihilist?", ">\n\nNoooo funny business, Putbowski", ">\n\nWe ba-lieve in nassing…", ">\n\nI think Putin feels he is above all that, he is untouchable. IMHO the only hope to end the war is for Putin to commit suicide or be assassinated.", ">\n\nKill Putin, someone else will be put in place by the oligarchs. You won't change too much.", ">\n\nI don't think that would happen. The oligarchs likely don't have the megalomaniac inclination Putin has. I don't see them wanting to continue down the road of attaching Ukraine.\nAlthough In the long run, I don't see Russia as becoming a \"nice\" country.", ">\n\nBaerbock proposes special tribunal to fuck the Russian raw", ">\n\nAnnalena is tough, if she could, she would drag Putin by his ear to Nürnberg herself.", ">\n\nShe’s one of the few German politicians I’m really fond of. It’s no wonder why the Greens are doing so well in the polls", ">\n\nMy family keeps hating on her because she misspoke like once or twice in front of the press. They literally do not have one real point of attack, no valid criticism, so they have to resort to personal attacks. It's sad. She's actually quite impressive.", ">\n\nPlagiarized her book? Faked her resume? Spouse became a lobbyist? I mean, she joins a long list of German politicians in these, but she’s not exactly unbefleckt.", ">\n\nWhy stop with Russian leadership? Going after everyone involved in Russian military, logistics, and State media disinformation may have serious affects on there mobilization capacity.", ">\n\nQuestion. What actual crime can they charge Russian State Media personalities with?\nThe West cant find the legal means to deal with sources of misinformation in their own countries, I struggle to see how they can deal with sources of misinformation in another country?", ">\n\nPropaganda organs have been prosecuted as accessory for crimes against humanity in the past.\nThis is actually what the Nuremberg trials were about: how can you proescute a country based on laws that were LEGAL in said country? By which authority do you judge?\nThis is how human rights were even established: laws universial to every human, regardless of national laws. Human laws trump national laws, regardless of where or if that country is not even a signatory to any human rights convention (since there weren't any at the end of WW2).\nAnd this is ALSO why most of the EU has \"anti hate-speech\" laws as they are considered a human rights violation. Or at least as \"preparing the way to make human rights violations acceptable\".", ">\n\nI can see him sitting on a stool without handles to hold on to, in a little glascage, alone, and outside all the people he have singlehanded made widows, childless, fatherless, motherless, quietly starring at him while they each poor a little bottle of water into a hole that slowly fill the cage, staring him right in his scared little face without anyone there to help him, no need for a tribunal...", ">\n\nI hate this kind of talk. due process and a permanent, wide open public record of everything he's responsible for is the way. \nthen Germany can reactivate Spandau for him.", ">\n\nIt's very disturbing how some comments on Reddit really read like some sociopathic behavior. It's not the first time someone promotes torture here.", ">\n\n\nman who lived by the sword is proposed to die by the sword\nNooooo, not the heckin' human rightserinooooos", ">\n\nThat's the point, we need to stay better than those we condemned otherwise we're just hypocrites.", ">\n\nIf that was true, the penalty for forcible confinement couldn't be imprisonment.", ">\n\nThis is a BS idea because “we” will never be able to imprison Putin. He will either be overthrown and die by Russian hands or he will die in Russia as president or with cover from some next dictator.\nGermany needs to stop talking about tribunals and start sending tanks to Ukraine already.Focus on how you can help the Ukrainian people now , don’t offer some utopian solution that has no basis in reality.", ">\n\nIMO there’s a nonzero chance a new Russian leader might hand Putin over to get into the West‘s good graces.", ">\n\nWho might that new leader be? Anyone who has the power to force a change is just as culpable. There is no central opposition to unite and lead the masses so any popular revolt will be picked apart bit by bit.", ">\n\nHey, I never said anything about making actual changes!\nHonestly though: No clue. It's an incredibly unlikely scenario anyways.", ">\n\nPutins gonna get fucked baerbock.", ">\n\nSuch measures are probably counterproductive because it will just make it less likely than Putin will give up and instead will fight to the bitter end.\nOf course such charges could also be negotiated away in order to try to get Putin to give up. Basically if he quits he can go into exile.", ">\n\nWhere was this proposal when the Bush administration was invading Iraq?", ">\n\nNo one complains when the Power Rangers destroys the aliens with the Megazord. Good guys get a free pass", ">\n\nIs Germany going to go into Russia and bring these people to justice?\nThe answer is no. This is just (empty) political theatre.", ">\n\nGermany going into Russia is probably the only way Putin could actually still win this war", ">\n\nFinally, someone grew a pair!", ">\n\nIf you didt noticed putin doesn give a fuck", ">\n\nRussia is still one of the Great Powers. Nobody will go to arrest him without taking a nuke to the face.", ">\n\nHuh? It's a regional power at best.", ">\n\nWhat else are there? The US and China are the only Superpowers. The only Great Powers of Europe that remain are because of their militaries including nukes. It is why Germany is no more a great power, and it had no colonies anymore. The UK has its possessions, so do France, and Russia its Near Abroad. Everyone else may have some armies but not nukes enough and no colonies.", ">\n\nOh now there’s consequences? So before now there were no consequences?", ">\n\nNow if only Germany stopped stalling and blocking others from delivering equipment Ukraine needs to make it happen that would be great.", ">\n\nThat'll show him /s", ">\n\nLOL. You let him get away with Crimea. Let's stop play acting.", ">\n\nMust he?...", ">\n\nCriminal ad hoc tribunals are a legal aberration that are prohited by good reason at a national level by most democratic constitutions.\nIt's time to give the International Criminal Court, that was made to prosecute this kind of thing, actual jurisdiction over the world and a way to effectively enforce their judgements.", ">\n\nThey have Jurisdiction in Ukraine, from a Jurisdictional standpoint it isn't a problem really as Ukraine consented to ICC Jurisdiction.", ">\n\nBut not Russia, even if the country came under new management, I have a hard time believing they would allow this.\nCan see someone pulling an Eichmann on them tho.", ">\n\nBetter give tanks to Ukrainians. If Ukraine loose, forget tribunal. Mean time German FM can do something more useful. For example play golf.", ">\n\nThis aggression will not stand, man!", ">\n\nBy the time the debate rages 100 more lives will be lost and thousands will be left in the freezing weather. The priority should be to to stop this .whatever that takes . It is in no one's interest to continue this war.", ">\n\nAll for it. But while we're at it, can we also work on the backlog? Russia's not the first nation to go on unprovoked killing sprees since WW2. Making absolutely sure any tribunal prosecuting those responsible for committing wars of aggression and expansion to increase spheres of influence is seen as utterly impartial to the entire world has to be a priority here, if the desired effect is to prevent more of these behaviours in the future. Which it must, of course. The task is to establish a rule of law based international order again. It won't work, if what really determines whether you'll get trialled is the size of your military and the aggressiveness of your stance. Might as well not bother then, a lot of effort just to end up where we started, at might makes right.", ">\n\nRussia coming with an \"Hague Invasion Act\" bootleg soon^TM", ">\n\nOmg she is stunningly beautiful", ">\n\nThere should be no way this war ends and Russia isn’t completely isolated from normal world society until change occurs, or the current leadership is prosecuted. Meaning for me anyway, that cannot leave Russian territory without the threat of being arrested in nearly every country.\nUnfortunately the Russian people don’t care enough now to remove Putin and his subordinates from power.", ">\n\nGood!!!", ">\n\nThis is all trump's fault. He's the most recent and successful LIAR there's been. He lied his way through the presidency, treated putin like a god, made fake news and disinformation mainstream and almost stole an election he was blown away in. \nputin watched him and realized he can totally bs his way through anything, even more than he already was.\nnow it's happened in Brazil also. thanks trump for studying hitler so closely.\nOh and Mark Zuckerberg. Social Media is going to destroy society person by person if we don't curb it and govern it. It's like screaming fire in a movie theater with 100 million in the audience.", ">\n\nA dumb idea. He'll have nothing to lose by then. Also, these dicks now go to The Hague.", ">\n\nI personally would like Putin to listen to each relative of victims of war from each side, to know how they feel about war, to show photos of killed relatives, to let them speak what they think about Putin. I really want him to know all this and have time to suffer in his sleep.\nHe lives in his bubble for too long.", ">\n\nDamn! Surprisingly hot for a German politician", ">\n\nFuck yeah! Send that bitch to The Hague", ">\n\nTy...", ">\n\nWhichever country in Europe holds the trials will have to bring back the death penalty and hanging...", ">\n\nOh grow up. This is nothing but inept posturing.", ">\n\nBut they will have to roll in with the goon squad and capture him, if they can even find him. It will be a two-way massacre. Maybe an elite clandestine military special forces-type team could infiltrate the country and nab him?", ">\n\nYPU SHOULD THAT with Obama Bush Trump, also, they also invades porro countries", ">\n\nI’m not sure staging a Nuremberg trial in absentia when trying to get both parties to the negotiating table is the best idea.\nYou kinda need to leave some doors open. If you don’t they’ll never have an incentive to deescalate.", ">\n\nHanger doors have been left open. Putin has no interest in peace. Need only to point to the deliberate attacks on civilian structures. The promise to not attack if nuclear weapons were removed. The appeasement by giving control of Crimea only for him to not only slowly move actual border fences but then attack later on.\nHe has shown again and again that his word cannot be trusted.", ">\n\nWell with that position, I’m not sure how this ends without a nuclear exchange eventually.\nAnd trials in absentia are bad optics.", ">\n\nPeace at this point means leave all of Ukraine. Do you really think that if appeasement is made and territory surrendered that Putin will stop there? What will happen is a pause to replenish and reorganize. And then start taking more.\nBad optics? It's not like Putin will just agree to come to trial. Next best thing is absentia. Lay out all the evidence and make a judgement based on that. His mouthpiece will cry foul and deflect like they were going to do regardless of being present or not.\nIf nuclear weapons are used it will be all on Putin. At this point no one else is to blame. Just like the initial invasion. It's not because of the expansion of NATO or any deflection. It's always been him. He is the cause of all this.", ">\n\nThe trial is for optics in the first place. So yea if the primary purpose is optics and it’s bad optics… doesn’t make sense.\nIf nuclear weapons are used it doesn’t matter who is to blame. I mean you can blame Putin all you want in your post apocalyptic hovel…", ">\n\nWords are wind", ">\n\nFrist do USA for irak!", ">\n\nAnd thats why germany is facing gas and oil sanctions" ]

[ "They can offer Nuremberg. It has the premises ready", ">\n\nWould be truly symbolic, not that there would be any chance to extract Putin and his cronies from Russia, while it still possesses nukes...", ">\n\nThere is certainly a chance. There are 147 million people in the Russian federation. They can throw 147 into the court system. A court system which will give those 147 men the opportunity to defend themselves and to face consequences only for actions which those 147 men are actually guilty of and no more. In exchange Russia gets the opportunity to participate in global civilization and share the freedom and prosperity. If they do not take the offer the Russian people have to languish under the despotism of those same 147 criminals. \nI do not know the odds but they are greater than zero.", ">\n\nI don't mean to shit on your idea because it isn't bad, it's just unrealistic. First off, you know those 147 men would consist of critics of Putin and journalists he was already about to assassinate anyway.\nBut the even bigger issue is the assumption that they would want to participate in this current global civilization. Putin banked all his capital on the \"history is written by the victor\" sentiment, not to mention the shared sentiment with China of forcing their perception on other nations with weaponized hypocrisy.\nPutin will never admit that his invasion failed, or that he committed war crimes or give up land. He wants to fight until the rest of the world is fatigued enough to concede and admit defeat to just end this already.\nAnd while it's definitely a condemnable attitude, he wouldn't stick to this if it weren't normalized in the past. The Crimea has been annexed since 2014, yet it was more convenient for everyone to just agree that \"those aren't Russian army men\" even though of course they were.\nSame with China putting pressure on the West to turn a blind eye on its' many questionable practices.\nYou can't just roll over and allow autocrats to do whatever and then expect them to suddenly respect you.", ">\n\nI meant Putin can be overthrown. The new administration rounds up the former leadership. \n\nYou can't just roll over and allow autocrats to do whatever and then expect them to suddenly respect you.\n\nBut a people can overthrow their autocratic regime and then become a respected nation.", ">\n\nHe can, but if you look at the timeline of the Russian Revolution of 1917 as a timeline, that ain't exactly a quick process either", ">\n\nCall me when they have Putin in custody. \nHe gives zero shits if his top people end up going to prison for war crimes. \nAnd there’s no way the war doesn’t end without:\n\nPutin dead \nPutin negotiating a deal where he never is held personally responsible. \n\nIt’s right in the dictator handbook. If you kill enough people, other countries will offer to give you a pass just to get you to stop.", ">\n\nHes only going to use it as propaganda, like \"evil west wants to judge me for defending mother russia\".", ">\n\nWhile I agree he should be held accountable, what are they going to do? Walk up to the Kremlin with 20 cops knock on the door and arrest him? This is nothing", ">\n\nNo. The Russians will do that.", ">\n\nI’m not 100% sure about that he’s put fear and blind loyalty in the right places", ">\n\nFear yes! Loyalty I'm not so sure. Seems like those most loyal have had some tragic and fatal accidents as of late. Price of failure I guess. But I'm more sure that those that remain are doing so more out of complete fear than anything else. Putin has everyone guessing who is truly loyal that everyone is too afraid to band together with the other fearful to remove him.", ">\n\nNah some of them mf act like golom and vlad is the god damn ring", ">\n\nNuremberg would be a great location.", ">\n\nThis is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 72%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nTHE HAGUE - The international community should establish a special tribunal to bring Russian President Vladimir Putin and his regime to trial over their war of aggression against Ukraine, German Foreign Minister Annalena Baerbock said Monday.\nIn a keynote speech following a visit to the International Criminal Court in The Hague, Baerbock emphasized the need to hold the Russian leadership \"Accountable\" for their invasion, which started almost a year ago.\nTo avoid this impasse, Baerbock said she wanted to form, together with partner countries, \"a special tribunal\" to address the crime of aggression against Ukraine that could investigate and try the Russian leadership.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: international^#1 Court^#2 tribunal^#3 crime^#4 Ukraine^#5", ">\n\nI think that's a fantastic idea.", ">\n\n“This aggression will not stand, man”\n-The Dude\n -Baerbock", ">\n\nPutin's a nihilist?", ">\n\nNoooo funny business, Putbowski", ">\n\nWe ba-lieve in nassing…", ">\n\nI think Putin feels he is above all that, he is untouchable. IMHO the only hope to end the war is for Putin to commit suicide or be assassinated.", ">\n\nKill Putin, someone else will be put in place by the oligarchs. You won't change too much.", ">\n\nI don't think that would happen. The oligarchs likely don't have the megalomaniac inclination Putin has. I don't see them wanting to continue down the road of attaching Ukraine.\nAlthough In the long run, I don't see Russia as becoming a \"nice\" country.", ">\n\nBaerbock proposes special tribunal to fuck the Russian raw", ">\n\nAnnalena is tough, if she could, she would drag Putin by his ear to Nürnberg herself.", ">\n\nShe’s one of the few German politicians I’m really fond of. It’s no wonder why the Greens are doing so well in the polls", ">\n\nMy family keeps hating on her because she misspoke like once or twice in front of the press. They literally do not have one real point of attack, no valid criticism, so they have to resort to personal attacks. It's sad. She's actually quite impressive.", ">\n\nPlagiarized her book? Faked her resume? Spouse became a lobbyist? I mean, she joins a long list of German politicians in these, but she’s not exactly unbefleckt.", ">\n\nWhy stop with Russian leadership? Going after everyone involved in Russian military, logistics, and State media disinformation may have serious affects on there mobilization capacity.", ">\n\nQuestion. What actual crime can they charge Russian State Media personalities with?\nThe West cant find the legal means to deal with sources of misinformation in their own countries, I struggle to see how they can deal with sources of misinformation in another country?", ">\n\nPropaganda organs have been prosecuted as accessory for crimes against humanity in the past.\nThis is actually what the Nuremberg trials were about: how can you proescute a country based on laws that were LEGAL in said country? By which authority do you judge?\nThis is how human rights were even established: laws universial to every human, regardless of national laws. Human laws trump national laws, regardless of where or if that country is not even a signatory to any human rights convention (since there weren't any at the end of WW2).\nAnd this is ALSO why most of the EU has \"anti hate-speech\" laws as they are considered a human rights violation. Or at least as \"preparing the way to make human rights violations acceptable\".", ">\n\nI can see him sitting on a stool without handles to hold on to, in a little glascage, alone, and outside all the people he have singlehanded made widows, childless, fatherless, motherless, quietly starring at him while they each poor a little bottle of water into a hole that slowly fill the cage, staring him right in his scared little face without anyone there to help him, no need for a tribunal...", ">\n\nI hate this kind of talk. due process and a permanent, wide open public record of everything he's responsible for is the way. \nthen Germany can reactivate Spandau for him.", ">\n\nIt's very disturbing how some comments on Reddit really read like some sociopathic behavior. It's not the first time someone promotes torture here.", ">\n\n\nman who lived by the sword is proposed to die by the sword\nNooooo, not the heckin' human rightserinooooos", ">\n\nThat's the point, we need to stay better than those we condemned otherwise we're just hypocrites.", ">\n\nIf that was true, the penalty for forcible confinement couldn't be imprisonment.", ">\n\nThis is a BS idea because “we” will never be able to imprison Putin. He will either be overthrown and die by Russian hands or he will die in Russia as president or with cover from some next dictator.\nGermany needs to stop talking about tribunals and start sending tanks to Ukraine already.Focus on how you can help the Ukrainian people now , don’t offer some utopian solution that has no basis in reality.", ">\n\nIMO there’s a nonzero chance a new Russian leader might hand Putin over to get into the West‘s good graces.", ">\n\nWho might that new leader be? Anyone who has the power to force a change is just as culpable. There is no central opposition to unite and lead the masses so any popular revolt will be picked apart bit by bit.", ">\n\nHey, I never said anything about making actual changes!\nHonestly though: No clue. It's an incredibly unlikely scenario anyways.", ">\n\nPutins gonna get fucked baerbock.", ">\n\nSuch measures are probably counterproductive because it will just make it less likely than Putin will give up and instead will fight to the bitter end.\nOf course such charges could also be negotiated away in order to try to get Putin to give up. Basically if he quits he can go into exile.", ">\n\nWhere was this proposal when the Bush administration was invading Iraq?", ">\n\nNo one complains when the Power Rangers destroys the aliens with the Megazord. Good guys get a free pass", ">\n\nIs Germany going to go into Russia and bring these people to justice?\nThe answer is no. This is just (empty) political theatre.", ">\n\nGermany going into Russia is probably the only way Putin could actually still win this war", ">\n\nFinally, someone grew a pair!", ">\n\nIf you didt noticed putin doesn give a fuck", ">\n\nRussia is still one of the Great Powers. Nobody will go to arrest him without taking a nuke to the face.", ">\n\nHuh? It's a regional power at best.", ">\n\nWhat else are there? The US and China are the only Superpowers. The only Great Powers of Europe that remain are because of their militaries including nukes. It is why Germany is no more a great power, and it had no colonies anymore. The UK has its possessions, so do France, and Russia its Near Abroad. Everyone else may have some armies but not nukes enough and no colonies.", ">\n\nOh now there’s consequences? So before now there were no consequences?", ">\n\nNow if only Germany stopped stalling and blocking others from delivering equipment Ukraine needs to make it happen that would be great.", ">\n\nThat'll show him /s", ">\n\nLOL. You let him get away with Crimea. Let's stop play acting.", ">\n\nMust he?...", ">\n\nCriminal ad hoc tribunals are a legal aberration that are prohited by good reason at a national level by most democratic constitutions.\nIt's time to give the International Criminal Court, that was made to prosecute this kind of thing, actual jurisdiction over the world and a way to effectively enforce their judgements.", ">\n\nThey have Jurisdiction in Ukraine, from a Jurisdictional standpoint it isn't a problem really as Ukraine consented to ICC Jurisdiction.", ">\n\nBut not Russia, even if the country came under new management, I have a hard time believing they would allow this.\nCan see someone pulling an Eichmann on them tho.", ">\n\nBetter give tanks to Ukrainians. If Ukraine loose, forget tribunal. Mean time German FM can do something more useful. For example play golf.", ">\n\nThis aggression will not stand, man!", ">\n\nBy the time the debate rages 100 more lives will be lost and thousands will be left in the freezing weather. The priority should be to to stop this .whatever that takes . It is in no one's interest to continue this war.", ">\n\nAll for it. But while we're at it, can we also work on the backlog? Russia's not the first nation to go on unprovoked killing sprees since WW2. Making absolutely sure any tribunal prosecuting those responsible for committing wars of aggression and expansion to increase spheres of influence is seen as utterly impartial to the entire world has to be a priority here, if the desired effect is to prevent more of these behaviours in the future. Which it must, of course. The task is to establish a rule of law based international order again. It won't work, if what really determines whether you'll get trialled is the size of your military and the aggressiveness of your stance. Might as well not bother then, a lot of effort just to end up where we started, at might makes right.", ">\n\nRussia coming with an \"Hague Invasion Act\" bootleg soon^TM", ">\n\nOmg she is stunningly beautiful", ">\n\nThere should be no way this war ends and Russia isn’t completely isolated from normal world society until change occurs, or the current leadership is prosecuted. Meaning for me anyway, that cannot leave Russian territory without the threat of being arrested in nearly every country.\nUnfortunately the Russian people don’t care enough now to remove Putin and his subordinates from power.", ">\n\nGood!!!", ">\n\nThis is all trump's fault. He's the most recent and successful LIAR there's been. He lied his way through the presidency, treated putin like a god, made fake news and disinformation mainstream and almost stole an election he was blown away in. \nputin watched him and realized he can totally bs his way through anything, even more than he already was.\nnow it's happened in Brazil also. thanks trump for studying hitler so closely.\nOh and Mark Zuckerberg. Social Media is going to destroy society person by person if we don't curb it and govern it. It's like screaming fire in a movie theater with 100 million in the audience.", ">\n\nA dumb idea. He'll have nothing to lose by then. Also, these dicks now go to The Hague.", ">\n\nI personally would like Putin to listen to each relative of victims of war from each side, to know how they feel about war, to show photos of killed relatives, to let them speak what they think about Putin. I really want him to know all this and have time to suffer in his sleep.\nHe lives in his bubble for too long.", ">\n\nDamn! Surprisingly hot for a German politician", ">\n\nFuck yeah! Send that bitch to The Hague", ">\n\nTy...", ">\n\nWhichever country in Europe holds the trials will have to bring back the death penalty and hanging...", ">\n\nOh grow up. This is nothing but inept posturing.", ">\n\nBut they will have to roll in with the goon squad and capture him, if they can even find him. It will be a two-way massacre. Maybe an elite clandestine military special forces-type team could infiltrate the country and nab him?", ">\n\nYPU SHOULD THAT with Obama Bush Trump, also, they also invades porro countries", ">\n\nI’m not sure staging a Nuremberg trial in absentia when trying to get both parties to the negotiating table is the best idea.\nYou kinda need to leave some doors open. If you don’t they’ll never have an incentive to deescalate.", ">\n\nHanger doors have been left open. Putin has no interest in peace. Need only to point to the deliberate attacks on civilian structures. The promise to not attack if nuclear weapons were removed. The appeasement by giving control of Crimea only for him to not only slowly move actual border fences but then attack later on.\nHe has shown again and again that his word cannot be trusted.", ">\n\nWell with that position, I’m not sure how this ends without a nuclear exchange eventually.\nAnd trials in absentia are bad optics.", ">\n\nPeace at this point means leave all of Ukraine. Do you really think that if appeasement is made and territory surrendered that Putin will stop there? What will happen is a pause to replenish and reorganize. And then start taking more.\nBad optics? It's not like Putin will just agree to come to trial. Next best thing is absentia. Lay out all the evidence and make a judgement based on that. His mouthpiece will cry foul and deflect like they were going to do regardless of being present or not.\nIf nuclear weapons are used it will be all on Putin. At this point no one else is to blame. Just like the initial invasion. It's not because of the expansion of NATO or any deflection. It's always been him. He is the cause of all this.", ">\n\nThe trial is for optics in the first place. So yea if the primary purpose is optics and it’s bad optics… doesn’t make sense.\nIf nuclear weapons are used it doesn’t matter who is to blame. I mean you can blame Putin all you want in your post apocalyptic hovel…", ">\n\nWords are wind", ">\n\nFrist do USA for irak!", ">\n\nAnd thats why germany is facing gas and oil sanctions", ">\n\nI thought it was agreed upon already" ]

[ "They can offer Nuremberg. It has the premises ready", ">\n\nWould be truly symbolic, not that there would be any chance to extract Putin and his cronies from Russia, while it still possesses nukes...", ">\n\nThere is certainly a chance. There are 147 million people in the Russian federation. They can throw 147 into the court system. A court system which will give those 147 men the opportunity to defend themselves and to face consequences only for actions which those 147 men are actually guilty of and no more. In exchange Russia gets the opportunity to participate in global civilization and share the freedom and prosperity. If they do not take the offer the Russian people have to languish under the despotism of those same 147 criminals. \nI do not know the odds but they are greater than zero.", ">\n\nI don't mean to shit on your idea because it isn't bad, it's just unrealistic. First off, you know those 147 men would consist of critics of Putin and journalists he was already about to assassinate anyway.\nBut the even bigger issue is the assumption that they would want to participate in this current global civilization. Putin banked all his capital on the \"history is written by the victor\" sentiment, not to mention the shared sentiment with China of forcing their perception on other nations with weaponized hypocrisy.\nPutin will never admit that his invasion failed, or that he committed war crimes or give up land. He wants to fight until the rest of the world is fatigued enough to concede and admit defeat to just end this already.\nAnd while it's definitely a condemnable attitude, he wouldn't stick to this if it weren't normalized in the past. The Crimea has been annexed since 2014, yet it was more convenient for everyone to just agree that \"those aren't Russian army men\" even though of course they were.\nSame with China putting pressure on the West to turn a blind eye on its' many questionable practices.\nYou can't just roll over and allow autocrats to do whatever and then expect them to suddenly respect you.", ">\n\nI meant Putin can be overthrown. The new administration rounds up the former leadership. \n\nYou can't just roll over and allow autocrats to do whatever and then expect them to suddenly respect you.\n\nBut a people can overthrow their autocratic regime and then become a respected nation.", ">\n\nHe can, but if you look at the timeline of the Russian Revolution of 1917 as a timeline, that ain't exactly a quick process either", ">\n\nCall me when they have Putin in custody. \nHe gives zero shits if his top people end up going to prison for war crimes. \nAnd there’s no way the war doesn’t end without:\n\nPutin dead \nPutin negotiating a deal where he never is held personally responsible. \n\nIt’s right in the dictator handbook. If you kill enough people, other countries will offer to give you a pass just to get you to stop.", ">\n\nHes only going to use it as propaganda, like \"evil west wants to judge me for defending mother russia\".", ">\n\nWhile I agree he should be held accountable, what are they going to do? Walk up to the Kremlin with 20 cops knock on the door and arrest him? This is nothing", ">\n\nNo. The Russians will do that.", ">\n\nI’m not 100% sure about that he’s put fear and blind loyalty in the right places", ">\n\nFear yes! Loyalty I'm not so sure. Seems like those most loyal have had some tragic and fatal accidents as of late. Price of failure I guess. But I'm more sure that those that remain are doing so more out of complete fear than anything else. Putin has everyone guessing who is truly loyal that everyone is too afraid to band together with the other fearful to remove him.", ">\n\nNah some of them mf act like golom and vlad is the god damn ring", ">\n\nNuremberg would be a great location.", ">\n\nThis is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 72%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nTHE HAGUE - The international community should establish a special tribunal to bring Russian President Vladimir Putin and his regime to trial over their war of aggression against Ukraine, German Foreign Minister Annalena Baerbock said Monday.\nIn a keynote speech following a visit to the International Criminal Court in The Hague, Baerbock emphasized the need to hold the Russian leadership \"Accountable\" for their invasion, which started almost a year ago.\nTo avoid this impasse, Baerbock said she wanted to form, together with partner countries, \"a special tribunal\" to address the crime of aggression against Ukraine that could investigate and try the Russian leadership.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: international^#1 Court^#2 tribunal^#3 crime^#4 Ukraine^#5", ">\n\nI think that's a fantastic idea.", ">\n\n“This aggression will not stand, man”\n-The Dude\n -Baerbock", ">\n\nPutin's a nihilist?", ">\n\nNoooo funny business, Putbowski", ">\n\nWe ba-lieve in nassing…", ">\n\nI think Putin feels he is above all that, he is untouchable. IMHO the only hope to end the war is for Putin to commit suicide or be assassinated.", ">\n\nKill Putin, someone else will be put in place by the oligarchs. You won't change too much.", ">\n\nI don't think that would happen. The oligarchs likely don't have the megalomaniac inclination Putin has. I don't see them wanting to continue down the road of attaching Ukraine.\nAlthough In the long run, I don't see Russia as becoming a \"nice\" country.", ">\n\nBaerbock proposes special tribunal to fuck the Russian raw", ">\n\nAnnalena is tough, if she could, she would drag Putin by his ear to Nürnberg herself.", ">\n\nShe’s one of the few German politicians I’m really fond of. It’s no wonder why the Greens are doing so well in the polls", ">\n\nMy family keeps hating on her because she misspoke like once or twice in front of the press. They literally do not have one real point of attack, no valid criticism, so they have to resort to personal attacks. It's sad. She's actually quite impressive.", ">\n\nPlagiarized her book? Faked her resume? Spouse became a lobbyist? I mean, she joins a long list of German politicians in these, but she’s not exactly unbefleckt.", ">\n\nWhy stop with Russian leadership? Going after everyone involved in Russian military, logistics, and State media disinformation may have serious affects on there mobilization capacity.", ">\n\nQuestion. What actual crime can they charge Russian State Media personalities with?\nThe West cant find the legal means to deal with sources of misinformation in their own countries, I struggle to see how they can deal with sources of misinformation in another country?", ">\n\nPropaganda organs have been prosecuted as accessory for crimes against humanity in the past.\nThis is actually what the Nuremberg trials were about: how can you proescute a country based on laws that were LEGAL in said country? By which authority do you judge?\nThis is how human rights were even established: laws universial to every human, regardless of national laws. Human laws trump national laws, regardless of where or if that country is not even a signatory to any human rights convention (since there weren't any at the end of WW2).\nAnd this is ALSO why most of the EU has \"anti hate-speech\" laws as they are considered a human rights violation. Or at least as \"preparing the way to make human rights violations acceptable\".", ">\n\nI can see him sitting on a stool without handles to hold on to, in a little glascage, alone, and outside all the people he have singlehanded made widows, childless, fatherless, motherless, quietly starring at him while they each poor a little bottle of water into a hole that slowly fill the cage, staring him right in his scared little face without anyone there to help him, no need for a tribunal...", ">\n\nI hate this kind of talk. due process and a permanent, wide open public record of everything he's responsible for is the way. \nthen Germany can reactivate Spandau for him.", ">\n\nIt's very disturbing how some comments on Reddit really read like some sociopathic behavior. It's not the first time someone promotes torture here.", ">\n\n\nman who lived by the sword is proposed to die by the sword\nNooooo, not the heckin' human rightserinooooos", ">\n\nThat's the point, we need to stay better than those we condemned otherwise we're just hypocrites.", ">\n\nIf that was true, the penalty for forcible confinement couldn't be imprisonment.", ">\n\nThis is a BS idea because “we” will never be able to imprison Putin. He will either be overthrown and die by Russian hands or he will die in Russia as president or with cover from some next dictator.\nGermany needs to stop talking about tribunals and start sending tanks to Ukraine already.Focus on how you can help the Ukrainian people now , don’t offer some utopian solution that has no basis in reality.", ">\n\nIMO there’s a nonzero chance a new Russian leader might hand Putin over to get into the West‘s good graces.", ">\n\nWho might that new leader be? Anyone who has the power to force a change is just as culpable. There is no central opposition to unite and lead the masses so any popular revolt will be picked apart bit by bit.", ">\n\nHey, I never said anything about making actual changes!\nHonestly though: No clue. It's an incredibly unlikely scenario anyways.", ">\n\nPutins gonna get fucked baerbock.", ">\n\nSuch measures are probably counterproductive because it will just make it less likely than Putin will give up and instead will fight to the bitter end.\nOf course such charges could also be negotiated away in order to try to get Putin to give up. Basically if he quits he can go into exile.", ">\n\nWhere was this proposal when the Bush administration was invading Iraq?", ">\n\nNo one complains when the Power Rangers destroys the aliens with the Megazord. Good guys get a free pass", ">\n\nIs Germany going to go into Russia and bring these people to justice?\nThe answer is no. This is just (empty) political theatre.", ">\n\nGermany going into Russia is probably the only way Putin could actually still win this war", ">\n\nFinally, someone grew a pair!", ">\n\nIf you didt noticed putin doesn give a fuck", ">\n\nRussia is still one of the Great Powers. Nobody will go to arrest him without taking a nuke to the face.", ">\n\nHuh? It's a regional power at best.", ">\n\nWhat else are there? The US and China are the only Superpowers. The only Great Powers of Europe that remain are because of their militaries including nukes. It is why Germany is no more a great power, and it had no colonies anymore. The UK has its possessions, so do France, and Russia its Near Abroad. Everyone else may have some armies but not nukes enough and no colonies.", ">\n\nOh now there’s consequences? So before now there were no consequences?", ">\n\nNow if only Germany stopped stalling and blocking others from delivering equipment Ukraine needs to make it happen that would be great.", ">\n\nThat'll show him /s", ">\n\nLOL. You let him get away with Crimea. Let's stop play acting.", ">\n\nMust he?...", ">\n\nCriminal ad hoc tribunals are a legal aberration that are prohited by good reason at a national level by most democratic constitutions.\nIt's time to give the International Criminal Court, that was made to prosecute this kind of thing, actual jurisdiction over the world and a way to effectively enforce their judgements.", ">\n\nThey have Jurisdiction in Ukraine, from a Jurisdictional standpoint it isn't a problem really as Ukraine consented to ICC Jurisdiction.", ">\n\nBut not Russia, even if the country came under new management, I have a hard time believing they would allow this.\nCan see someone pulling an Eichmann on them tho.", ">\n\nBetter give tanks to Ukrainians. If Ukraine loose, forget tribunal. Mean time German FM can do something more useful. For example play golf.", ">\n\nThis aggression will not stand, man!", ">\n\nBy the time the debate rages 100 more lives will be lost and thousands will be left in the freezing weather. The priority should be to to stop this .whatever that takes . It is in no one's interest to continue this war.", ">\n\nAll for it. But while we're at it, can we also work on the backlog? Russia's not the first nation to go on unprovoked killing sprees since WW2. Making absolutely sure any tribunal prosecuting those responsible for committing wars of aggression and expansion to increase spheres of influence is seen as utterly impartial to the entire world has to be a priority here, if the desired effect is to prevent more of these behaviours in the future. Which it must, of course. The task is to establish a rule of law based international order again. It won't work, if what really determines whether you'll get trialled is the size of your military and the aggressiveness of your stance. Might as well not bother then, a lot of effort just to end up where we started, at might makes right.", ">\n\nRussia coming with an \"Hague Invasion Act\" bootleg soon^TM", ">\n\nOmg she is stunningly beautiful", ">\n\nThere should be no way this war ends and Russia isn’t completely isolated from normal world society until change occurs, or the current leadership is prosecuted. Meaning for me anyway, that cannot leave Russian territory without the threat of being arrested in nearly every country.\nUnfortunately the Russian people don’t care enough now to remove Putin and his subordinates from power.", ">\n\nGood!!!", ">\n\nThis is all trump's fault. He's the most recent and successful LIAR there's been. He lied his way through the presidency, treated putin like a god, made fake news and disinformation mainstream and almost stole an election he was blown away in. \nputin watched him and realized he can totally bs his way through anything, even more than he already was.\nnow it's happened in Brazil also. thanks trump for studying hitler so closely.\nOh and Mark Zuckerberg. Social Media is going to destroy society person by person if we don't curb it and govern it. It's like screaming fire in a movie theater with 100 million in the audience.", ">\n\nA dumb idea. He'll have nothing to lose by then. Also, these dicks now go to The Hague.", ">\n\nI personally would like Putin to listen to each relative of victims of war from each side, to know how they feel about war, to show photos of killed relatives, to let them speak what they think about Putin. I really want him to know all this and have time to suffer in his sleep.\nHe lives in his bubble for too long.", ">\n\nDamn! Surprisingly hot for a German politician", ">\n\nFuck yeah! Send that bitch to The Hague", ">\n\nTy...", ">\n\nWhichever country in Europe holds the trials will have to bring back the death penalty and hanging...", ">\n\nOh grow up. This is nothing but inept posturing.", ">\n\nBut they will have to roll in with the goon squad and capture him, if they can even find him. It will be a two-way massacre. Maybe an elite clandestine military special forces-type team could infiltrate the country and nab him?", ">\n\nYPU SHOULD THAT with Obama Bush Trump, also, they also invades porro countries", ">\n\nI’m not sure staging a Nuremberg trial in absentia when trying to get both parties to the negotiating table is the best idea.\nYou kinda need to leave some doors open. If you don’t they’ll never have an incentive to deescalate.", ">\n\nHanger doors have been left open. Putin has no interest in peace. Need only to point to the deliberate attacks on civilian structures. The promise to not attack if nuclear weapons were removed. The appeasement by giving control of Crimea only for him to not only slowly move actual border fences but then attack later on.\nHe has shown again and again that his word cannot be trusted.", ">\n\nWell with that position, I’m not sure how this ends without a nuclear exchange eventually.\nAnd trials in absentia are bad optics.", ">\n\nPeace at this point means leave all of Ukraine. Do you really think that if appeasement is made and territory surrendered that Putin will stop there? What will happen is a pause to replenish and reorganize. And then start taking more.\nBad optics? It's not like Putin will just agree to come to trial. Next best thing is absentia. Lay out all the evidence and make a judgement based on that. His mouthpiece will cry foul and deflect like they were going to do regardless of being present or not.\nIf nuclear weapons are used it will be all on Putin. At this point no one else is to blame. Just like the initial invasion. It's not because of the expansion of NATO or any deflection. It's always been him. He is the cause of all this.", ">\n\nThe trial is for optics in the first place. So yea if the primary purpose is optics and it’s bad optics… doesn’t make sense.\nIf nuclear weapons are used it doesn’t matter who is to blame. I mean you can blame Putin all you want in your post apocalyptic hovel…", ">\n\nWords are wind", ">\n\nFrist do USA for irak!", ">\n\nAnd thats why germany is facing gas and oil sanctions", ">\n\nI thought it was agreed upon already", ">\n\nI think it is time to examine the potential for a new global Democratic Defence Alliance. \nNATO is limited to The Atlanic region, thus Australia, South Korea and Japan are excluded.\nANZUS only applies to Australia, New Zealand and the USA.\nSo many alliances that are between only a few Democratic countries. \nOne big umbrella to not only protect Democratic nations, but to encourage and assist countries that are fighting for the Democratic ideal." ]

[ "They can offer Nuremberg. It has the premises ready", ">\n\nWould be truly symbolic, not that there would be any chance to extract Putin and his cronies from Russia, while it still possesses nukes...", ">\n\nThere is certainly a chance. There are 147 million people in the Russian federation. They can throw 147 into the court system. A court system which will give those 147 men the opportunity to defend themselves and to face consequences only for actions which those 147 men are actually guilty of and no more. In exchange Russia gets the opportunity to participate in global civilization and share the freedom and prosperity. If they do not take the offer the Russian people have to languish under the despotism of those same 147 criminals. \nI do not know the odds but they are greater than zero.", ">\n\nI don't mean to shit on your idea because it isn't bad, it's just unrealistic. First off, you know those 147 men would consist of critics of Putin and journalists he was already about to assassinate anyway.\nBut the even bigger issue is the assumption that they would want to participate in this current global civilization. Putin banked all his capital on the \"history is written by the victor\" sentiment, not to mention the shared sentiment with China of forcing their perception on other nations with weaponized hypocrisy.\nPutin will never admit that his invasion failed, or that he committed war crimes or give up land. He wants to fight until the rest of the world is fatigued enough to concede and admit defeat to just end this already.\nAnd while it's definitely a condemnable attitude, he wouldn't stick to this if it weren't normalized in the past. The Crimea has been annexed since 2014, yet it was more convenient for everyone to just agree that \"those aren't Russian army men\" even though of course they were.\nSame with China putting pressure on the West to turn a blind eye on its' many questionable practices.\nYou can't just roll over and allow autocrats to do whatever and then expect them to suddenly respect you.", ">\n\nI meant Putin can be overthrown. The new administration rounds up the former leadership. \n\nYou can't just roll over and allow autocrats to do whatever and then expect them to suddenly respect you.\n\nBut a people can overthrow their autocratic regime and then become a respected nation.", ">\n\nHe can, but if you look at the timeline of the Russian Revolution of 1917 as a timeline, that ain't exactly a quick process either", ">\n\nCall me when they have Putin in custody. \nHe gives zero shits if his top people end up going to prison for war crimes. \nAnd there’s no way the war doesn’t end without:\n\nPutin dead \nPutin negotiating a deal where he never is held personally responsible. \n\nIt’s right in the dictator handbook. If you kill enough people, other countries will offer to give you a pass just to get you to stop.", ">\n\nHes only going to use it as propaganda, like \"evil west wants to judge me for defending mother russia\".", ">\n\nWhile I agree he should be held accountable, what are they going to do? Walk up to the Kremlin with 20 cops knock on the door and arrest him? This is nothing", ">\n\nNo. The Russians will do that.", ">\n\nI’m not 100% sure about that he’s put fear and blind loyalty in the right places", ">\n\nFear yes! Loyalty I'm not so sure. Seems like those most loyal have had some tragic and fatal accidents as of late. Price of failure I guess. But I'm more sure that those that remain are doing so more out of complete fear than anything else. Putin has everyone guessing who is truly loyal that everyone is too afraid to band together with the other fearful to remove him.", ">\n\nNah some of them mf act like golom and vlad is the god damn ring", ">\n\nNuremberg would be a great location.", ">\n\nThis is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 72%. (I'm a bot)\n\n\nTHE HAGUE - The international community should establish a special tribunal to bring Russian President Vladimir Putin and his regime to trial over their war of aggression against Ukraine, German Foreign Minister Annalena Baerbock said Monday.\nIn a keynote speech following a visit to the International Criminal Court in The Hague, Baerbock emphasized the need to hold the Russian leadership \"Accountable\" for their invasion, which started almost a year ago.\nTo avoid this impasse, Baerbock said she wanted to form, together with partner countries, \"a special tribunal\" to address the crime of aggression against Ukraine that could investigate and try the Russian leadership.\n\n\nExtended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: international^#1 Court^#2 tribunal^#3 crime^#4 Ukraine^#5", ">\n\nI think that's a fantastic idea.", ">\n\n“This aggression will not stand, man”\n-The Dude\n -Baerbock", ">\n\nPutin's a nihilist?", ">\n\nNoooo funny business, Putbowski", ">\n\nWe ba-lieve in nassing…", ">\n\nI think Putin feels he is above all that, he is untouchable. IMHO the only hope to end the war is for Putin to commit suicide or be assassinated.", ">\n\nKill Putin, someone else will be put in place by the oligarchs. You won't change too much.", ">\n\nI don't think that would happen. The oligarchs likely don't have the megalomaniac inclination Putin has. I don't see them wanting to continue down the road of attaching Ukraine.\nAlthough In the long run, I don't see Russia as becoming a \"nice\" country.", ">\n\nBaerbock proposes special tribunal to fuck the Russian raw", ">\n\nAnnalena is tough, if she could, she would drag Putin by his ear to Nürnberg herself.", ">\n\nShe’s one of the few German politicians I’m really fond of. It’s no wonder why the Greens are doing so well in the polls", ">\n\nMy family keeps hating on her because she misspoke like once or twice in front of the press. They literally do not have one real point of attack, no valid criticism, so they have to resort to personal attacks. It's sad. She's actually quite impressive.", ">\n\nPlagiarized her book? Faked her resume? Spouse became a lobbyist? I mean, she joins a long list of German politicians in these, but she’s not exactly unbefleckt.", ">\n\nWhy stop with Russian leadership? Going after everyone involved in Russian military, logistics, and State media disinformation may have serious affects on there mobilization capacity.", ">\n\nQuestion. What actual crime can they charge Russian State Media personalities with?\nThe West cant find the legal means to deal with sources of misinformation in their own countries, I struggle to see how they can deal with sources of misinformation in another country?", ">\n\nPropaganda organs have been prosecuted as accessory for crimes against humanity in the past.\nThis is actually what the Nuremberg trials were about: how can you proescute a country based on laws that were LEGAL in said country? By which authority do you judge?\nThis is how human rights were even established: laws universial to every human, regardless of national laws. Human laws trump national laws, regardless of where or if that country is not even a signatory to any human rights convention (since there weren't any at the end of WW2).\nAnd this is ALSO why most of the EU has \"anti hate-speech\" laws as they are considered a human rights violation. Or at least as \"preparing the way to make human rights violations acceptable\".", ">\n\nI can see him sitting on a stool without handles to hold on to, in a little glascage, alone, and outside all the people he have singlehanded made widows, childless, fatherless, motherless, quietly starring at him while they each poor a little bottle of water into a hole that slowly fill the cage, staring him right in his scared little face without anyone there to help him, no need for a tribunal...", ">\n\nI hate this kind of talk. due process and a permanent, wide open public record of everything he's responsible for is the way. \nthen Germany can reactivate Spandau for him.", ">\n\nIt's very disturbing how some comments on Reddit really read like some sociopathic behavior. It's not the first time someone promotes torture here.", ">\n\n\nman who lived by the sword is proposed to die by the sword\nNooooo, not the heckin' human rightserinooooos", ">\n\nThat's the point, we need to stay better than those we condemned otherwise we're just hypocrites.", ">\n\nIf that was true, the penalty for forcible confinement couldn't be imprisonment.", ">\n\nThis is a BS idea because “we” will never be able to imprison Putin. He will either be overthrown and die by Russian hands or he will die in Russia as president or with cover from some next dictator.\nGermany needs to stop talking about tribunals and start sending tanks to Ukraine already.Focus on how you can help the Ukrainian people now , don’t offer some utopian solution that has no basis in reality.", ">\n\nIMO there’s a nonzero chance a new Russian leader might hand Putin over to get into the West‘s good graces.", ">\n\nWho might that new leader be? Anyone who has the power to force a change is just as culpable. There is no central opposition to unite and lead the masses so any popular revolt will be picked apart bit by bit.", ">\n\nHey, I never said anything about making actual changes!\nHonestly though: No clue. It's an incredibly unlikely scenario anyways.", ">\n\nPutins gonna get fucked baerbock.", ">\n\nSuch measures are probably counterproductive because it will just make it less likely than Putin will give up and instead will fight to the bitter end.\nOf course such charges could also be negotiated away in order to try to get Putin to give up. Basically if he quits he can go into exile.", ">\n\nWhere was this proposal when the Bush administration was invading Iraq?", ">\n\nNo one complains when the Power Rangers destroys the aliens with the Megazord. Good guys get a free pass", ">\n\nIs Germany going to go into Russia and bring these people to justice?\nThe answer is no. This is just (empty) political theatre.", ">\n\nGermany going into Russia is probably the only way Putin could actually still win this war", ">\n\nFinally, someone grew a pair!", ">\n\nIf you didt noticed putin doesn give a fuck", ">\n\nRussia is still one of the Great Powers. Nobody will go to arrest him without taking a nuke to the face.", ">\n\nHuh? It's a regional power at best.", ">\n\nWhat else are there? The US and China are the only Superpowers. The only Great Powers of Europe that remain are because of their militaries including nukes. It is why Germany is no more a great power, and it had no colonies anymore. The UK has its possessions, so do France, and Russia its Near Abroad. Everyone else may have some armies but not nukes enough and no colonies.", ">\n\nOh now there’s consequences? So before now there were no consequences?", ">\n\nNow if only Germany stopped stalling and blocking others from delivering equipment Ukraine needs to make it happen that would be great.", ">\n\nThat'll show him /s", ">\n\nLOL. You let him get away with Crimea. Let's stop play acting.", ">\n\nMust he?...", ">\n\nCriminal ad hoc tribunals are a legal aberration that are prohited by good reason at a national level by most democratic constitutions.\nIt's time to give the International Criminal Court, that was made to prosecute this kind of thing, actual jurisdiction over the world and a way to effectively enforce their judgements.", ">\n\nThey have Jurisdiction in Ukraine, from a Jurisdictional standpoint it isn't a problem really as Ukraine consented to ICC Jurisdiction.", ">\n\nBut not Russia, even if the country came under new management, I have a hard time believing they would allow this.\nCan see someone pulling an Eichmann on them tho.", ">\n\nBetter give tanks to Ukrainians. If Ukraine loose, forget tribunal. Mean time German FM can do something more useful. For example play golf.", ">\n\nThis aggression will not stand, man!", ">\n\nBy the time the debate rages 100 more lives will be lost and thousands will be left in the freezing weather. The priority should be to to stop this .whatever that takes . It is in no one's interest to continue this war.", ">\n\nAll for it. But while we're at it, can we also work on the backlog? Russia's not the first nation to go on unprovoked killing sprees since WW2. Making absolutely sure any tribunal prosecuting those responsible for committing wars of aggression and expansion to increase spheres of influence is seen as utterly impartial to the entire world has to be a priority here, if the desired effect is to prevent more of these behaviours in the future. Which it must, of course. The task is to establish a rule of law based international order again. It won't work, if what really determines whether you'll get trialled is the size of your military and the aggressiveness of your stance. Might as well not bother then, a lot of effort just to end up where we started, at might makes right.", ">\n\nRussia coming with an \"Hague Invasion Act\" bootleg soon^TM", ">\n\nOmg she is stunningly beautiful", ">\n\nThere should be no way this war ends and Russia isn’t completely isolated from normal world society until change occurs, or the current leadership is prosecuted. Meaning for me anyway, that cannot leave Russian territory without the threat of being arrested in nearly every country.\nUnfortunately the Russian people don’t care enough now to remove Putin and his subordinates from power.", ">\n\nGood!!!", ">\n\nThis is all trump's fault. He's the most recent and successful LIAR there's been. He lied his way through the presidency, treated putin like a god, made fake news and disinformation mainstream and almost stole an election he was blown away in. \nputin watched him and realized he can totally bs his way through anything, even more than he already was.\nnow it's happened in Brazil also. thanks trump for studying hitler so closely.\nOh and Mark Zuckerberg. Social Media is going to destroy society person by person if we don't curb it and govern it. It's like screaming fire in a movie theater with 100 million in the audience.", ">\n\nA dumb idea. He'll have nothing to lose by then. Also, these dicks now go to The Hague.", ">\n\nI personally would like Putin to listen to each relative of victims of war from each side, to know how they feel about war, to show photos of killed relatives, to let them speak what they think about Putin. I really want him to know all this and have time to suffer in his sleep.\nHe lives in his bubble for too long.", ">\n\nDamn! Surprisingly hot for a German politician", ">\n\nFuck yeah! Send that bitch to The Hague", ">\n\nTy...", ">\n\nWhichever country in Europe holds the trials will have to bring back the death penalty and hanging...", ">\n\nOh grow up. This is nothing but inept posturing.", ">\n\nBut they will have to roll in with the goon squad and capture him, if they can even find him. It will be a two-way massacre. Maybe an elite clandestine military special forces-type team could infiltrate the country and nab him?", ">\n\nYPU SHOULD THAT with Obama Bush Trump, also, they also invades porro countries", ">\n\nI’m not sure staging a Nuremberg trial in absentia when trying to get both parties to the negotiating table is the best idea.\nYou kinda need to leave some doors open. If you don’t they’ll never have an incentive to deescalate.", ">\n\nHanger doors have been left open. Putin has no interest in peace. Need only to point to the deliberate attacks on civilian structures. The promise to not attack if nuclear weapons were removed. The appeasement by giving control of Crimea only for him to not only slowly move actual border fences but then attack later on.\nHe has shown again and again that his word cannot be trusted.", ">\n\nWell with that position, I’m not sure how this ends without a nuclear exchange eventually.\nAnd trials in absentia are bad optics.", ">\n\nPeace at this point means leave all of Ukraine. Do you really think that if appeasement is made and territory surrendered that Putin will stop there? What will happen is a pause to replenish and reorganize. And then start taking more.\nBad optics? It's not like Putin will just agree to come to trial. Next best thing is absentia. Lay out all the evidence and make a judgement based on that. His mouthpiece will cry foul and deflect like they were going to do regardless of being present or not.\nIf nuclear weapons are used it will be all on Putin. At this point no one else is to blame. Just like the initial invasion. It's not because of the expansion of NATO or any deflection. It's always been him. He is the cause of all this.", ">\n\nThe trial is for optics in the first place. So yea if the primary purpose is optics and it’s bad optics… doesn’t make sense.\nIf nuclear weapons are used it doesn’t matter who is to blame. I mean you can blame Putin all you want in your post apocalyptic hovel…", ">\n\nWords are wind", ">\n\nFrist do USA for irak!", ">\n\nAnd thats why germany is facing gas and oil sanctions", ">\n\nI thought it was agreed upon already", ">\n\nI think it is time to examine the potential for a new global Democratic Defence Alliance. \nNATO is limited to The Atlanic region, thus Australia, South Korea and Japan are excluded.\nANZUS only applies to Australia, New Zealand and the USA.\nSo many alliances that are between only a few Democratic countries. \nOne big umbrella to not only protect Democratic nations, but to encourage and assist countries that are fighting for the Democratic ideal.", ">\n\nI wonder if the U.S. will recognize the ICCt if there is a real chance that Putin will be tried there." ]

[]

[ "/u/Blutorangensaft (OP) has awarded 3 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards" ]

[ "/u/Blutorangensaft (OP) has awarded 3 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nHow do you think people are trying to change the gap? Because almost all of the initiatives that I've heard of stem (bu dum tss) from encouraging women to pursue more lucrative careers" ]

[ "/u/Blutorangensaft (OP) has awarded 3 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nHow do you think people are trying to change the gap? Because almost all of the initiatives that I've heard of stem (bu dum tss) from encouraging women to pursue more lucrative careers", ">\n\nFirst, some policy proponents demand a market-wide change of the valuation of different types of work, which I don't find realistic. The reason tech pays well is because it scales well. Social doesn't scale.\nSecond, that's not the only argument I heard. I also heard the allegation that jobs are paid inversely proportional to the number of women in them, and that that needs to change. I can cite articles if you like, but that seems to be a pretty popular view." ]

[ "/u/Blutorangensaft (OP) has awarded 3 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nHow do you think people are trying to change the gap? Because almost all of the initiatives that I've heard of stem (bu dum tss) from encouraging women to pursue more lucrative careers", ">\n\nFirst, some policy proponents demand a market-wide change of the valuation of different types of work, which I don't find realistic. The reason tech pays well is because it scales well. Social doesn't scale.\nSecond, that's not the only argument I heard. I also heard the allegation that jobs are paid inversely proportional to the number of women in them, and that that needs to change. I can cite articles if you like, but that seems to be a pretty popular view.", ">\n\nI’m trying to understand what exactly what the assertion “the part of the gender pay gap that results from women and men being in different occupations should bot be closed” means, exactly.\nOn the surface it sounds a bit like “different jobs can and should pay differently” which unless you are the most rabid of socialists is pretty clearly true.\nWhat about the factors that cause men and women to make occupational choices?\nLike women tend to choose jobs that are traditionally dominated by women, and ones that are extra forgiving of long absences and/or can flip to part time / reduced hours - all of which is highly correlated to childbirth and nursing of infants.\nShould we as a society be taking any step to alleviate and share that burden?\nThe same question goes for different levels.\nThe job pay gap mostly goes away at same level - but what we tend to see is women being and seeking promotion less or transitioning out of the workforce in their late 20’s. Often for the same childcare related reason.\nShould we do anything here or not?" ]

[ "/u/Blutorangensaft (OP) has awarded 3 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nHow do you think people are trying to change the gap? Because almost all of the initiatives that I've heard of stem (bu dum tss) from encouraging women to pursue more lucrative careers", ">\n\nFirst, some policy proponents demand a market-wide change of the valuation of different types of work, which I don't find realistic. The reason tech pays well is because it scales well. Social doesn't scale.\nSecond, that's not the only argument I heard. I also heard the allegation that jobs are paid inversely proportional to the number of women in them, and that that needs to change. I can cite articles if you like, but that seems to be a pretty popular view.", ">\n\nI’m trying to understand what exactly what the assertion “the part of the gender pay gap that results from women and men being in different occupations should bot be closed” means, exactly.\nOn the surface it sounds a bit like “different jobs can and should pay differently” which unless you are the most rabid of socialists is pretty clearly true.\nWhat about the factors that cause men and women to make occupational choices?\nLike women tend to choose jobs that are traditionally dominated by women, and ones that are extra forgiving of long absences and/or can flip to part time / reduced hours - all of which is highly correlated to childbirth and nursing of infants.\nShould we as a society be taking any step to alleviate and share that burden?\nThe same question goes for different levels.\nThe job pay gap mostly goes away at same level - but what we tend to see is women being and seeking promotion less or transitioning out of the workforce in their late 20’s. Often for the same childcare related reason.\nShould we do anything here or not?", ">\n\nI'm not OP but I'm curious about this. \nIf I say society should not be taking steps to alleviate the decisions that women make in their life, you call them a 'burden' in some spots but you call them choices in other spots.\nIf I did say that, was your point going to be we should be?" ]

[ "/u/Blutorangensaft (OP) has awarded 3 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nHow do you think people are trying to change the gap? Because almost all of the initiatives that I've heard of stem (bu dum tss) from encouraging women to pursue more lucrative careers", ">\n\nFirst, some policy proponents demand a market-wide change of the valuation of different types of work, which I don't find realistic. The reason tech pays well is because it scales well. Social doesn't scale.\nSecond, that's not the only argument I heard. I also heard the allegation that jobs are paid inversely proportional to the number of women in them, and that that needs to change. I can cite articles if you like, but that seems to be a pretty popular view.", ">\n\nI’m trying to understand what exactly what the assertion “the part of the gender pay gap that results from women and men being in different occupations should bot be closed” means, exactly.\nOn the surface it sounds a bit like “different jobs can and should pay differently” which unless you are the most rabid of socialists is pretty clearly true.\nWhat about the factors that cause men and women to make occupational choices?\nLike women tend to choose jobs that are traditionally dominated by women, and ones that are extra forgiving of long absences and/or can flip to part time / reduced hours - all of which is highly correlated to childbirth and nursing of infants.\nShould we as a society be taking any step to alleviate and share that burden?\nThe same question goes for different levels.\nThe job pay gap mostly goes away at same level - but what we tend to see is women being and seeking promotion less or transitioning out of the workforce in their late 20’s. Often for the same childcare related reason.\nShould we do anything here or not?", ">\n\nI'm not OP but I'm curious about this. \nIf I say society should not be taking steps to alleviate the decisions that women make in their life, you call them a 'burden' in some spots but you call them choices in other spots.\nIf I did say that, was your point going to be we should be?", ">\n\nMy phrasing - effectively “the choice to bear a burden” - was implicitly acknowledging it could be argued either way, and I was attempting to ask the question in a neutral way.\nI don’t have a well formed opinion here just yet. I tend to think that the ease of doing business - particularly making start-ups - is an enormous competitive advantage of the United States over Europe. I also see that the attrition rate of women on maternity leave is really high even in the most comfortable & well paid jobs. \nSo I tend to think that you start to get diminishing returns in efforts to try to de-program the way people tend to orient their family lives along gender roles." ]

[ "/u/Blutorangensaft (OP) has awarded 3 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nHow do you think people are trying to change the gap? Because almost all of the initiatives that I've heard of stem (bu dum tss) from encouraging women to pursue more lucrative careers", ">\n\nFirst, some policy proponents demand a market-wide change of the valuation of different types of work, which I don't find realistic. The reason tech pays well is because it scales well. Social doesn't scale.\nSecond, that's not the only argument I heard. I also heard the allegation that jobs are paid inversely proportional to the number of women in them, and that that needs to change. I can cite articles if you like, but that seems to be a pretty popular view.", ">\n\nI’m trying to understand what exactly what the assertion “the part of the gender pay gap that results from women and men being in different occupations should bot be closed” means, exactly.\nOn the surface it sounds a bit like “different jobs can and should pay differently” which unless you are the most rabid of socialists is pretty clearly true.\nWhat about the factors that cause men and women to make occupational choices?\nLike women tend to choose jobs that are traditionally dominated by women, and ones that are extra forgiving of long absences and/or can flip to part time / reduced hours - all of which is highly correlated to childbirth and nursing of infants.\nShould we as a society be taking any step to alleviate and share that burden?\nThe same question goes for different levels.\nThe job pay gap mostly goes away at same level - but what we tend to see is women being and seeking promotion less or transitioning out of the workforce in their late 20’s. Often for the same childcare related reason.\nShould we do anything here or not?", ">\n\nI'm not OP but I'm curious about this. \nIf I say society should not be taking steps to alleviate the decisions that women make in their life, you call them a 'burden' in some spots but you call them choices in other spots.\nIf I did say that, was your point going to be we should be?", ">\n\nMy phrasing - effectively “the choice to bear a burden” - was implicitly acknowledging it could be argued either way, and I was attempting to ask the question in a neutral way.\nI don’t have a well formed opinion here just yet. I tend to think that the ease of doing business - particularly making start-ups - is an enormous competitive advantage of the United States over Europe. I also see that the attrition rate of women on maternity leave is really high even in the most comfortable & well paid jobs. \nSo I tend to think that you start to get diminishing returns in efforts to try to de-program the way people tend to orient their family lives along gender roles.", ">\n\nI wonder if it's actually attrition for women in general or if it's just women going the way they really want to anyway.\nI know I've spoken to many women, and my wife, and my sister in law. \nI suspect it's fairly common that women who even had very professional jobs, find after they have had kids and go on maternity leave, they simply find \"Oh... this is actually much more important to me\".\nI wonder if they'd actually consider it attrition. \nWould you want to deprogram that type of thought process? I wouldn't think so really, on a personal level. perhaps an argument can be made on a generalized 'societal' level though." ]

[ "/u/Blutorangensaft (OP) has awarded 3 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nHow do you think people are trying to change the gap? Because almost all of the initiatives that I've heard of stem (bu dum tss) from encouraging women to pursue more lucrative careers", ">\n\nFirst, some policy proponents demand a market-wide change of the valuation of different types of work, which I don't find realistic. The reason tech pays well is because it scales well. Social doesn't scale.\nSecond, that's not the only argument I heard. I also heard the allegation that jobs are paid inversely proportional to the number of women in them, and that that needs to change. I can cite articles if you like, but that seems to be a pretty popular view.", ">\n\nI’m trying to understand what exactly what the assertion “the part of the gender pay gap that results from women and men being in different occupations should bot be closed” means, exactly.\nOn the surface it sounds a bit like “different jobs can and should pay differently” which unless you are the most rabid of socialists is pretty clearly true.\nWhat about the factors that cause men and women to make occupational choices?\nLike women tend to choose jobs that are traditionally dominated by women, and ones that are extra forgiving of long absences and/or can flip to part time / reduced hours - all of which is highly correlated to childbirth and nursing of infants.\nShould we as a society be taking any step to alleviate and share that burden?\nThe same question goes for different levels.\nThe job pay gap mostly goes away at same level - but what we tend to see is women being and seeking promotion less or transitioning out of the workforce in their late 20’s. Often for the same childcare related reason.\nShould we do anything here or not?", ">\n\nI'm not OP but I'm curious about this. \nIf I say society should not be taking steps to alleviate the decisions that women make in their life, you call them a 'burden' in some spots but you call them choices in other spots.\nIf I did say that, was your point going to be we should be?", ">\n\nMy phrasing - effectively “the choice to bear a burden” - was implicitly acknowledging it could be argued either way, and I was attempting to ask the question in a neutral way.\nI don’t have a well formed opinion here just yet. I tend to think that the ease of doing business - particularly making start-ups - is an enormous competitive advantage of the United States over Europe. I also see that the attrition rate of women on maternity leave is really high even in the most comfortable & well paid jobs. \nSo I tend to think that you start to get diminishing returns in efforts to try to de-program the way people tend to orient their family lives along gender roles.", ">\n\nI wonder if it's actually attrition for women in general or if it's just women going the way they really want to anyway.\nI know I've spoken to many women, and my wife, and my sister in law. \nI suspect it's fairly common that women who even had very professional jobs, find after they have had kids and go on maternity leave, they simply find \"Oh... this is actually much more important to me\".\nI wonder if they'd actually consider it attrition. \nWould you want to deprogram that type of thought process? I wouldn't think so really, on a personal level. perhaps an argument can be made on a generalized 'societal' level though.", ">\n\nI meant attrition in the way HR department use it - just a synonym for “left the job”, not as a suggestion of them being worn down by stress or other.\nI do think it’s common for women in their early 30’s, once established, to prefer family - and that’s fine." ]

[ "/u/Blutorangensaft (OP) has awarded 3 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nHow do you think people are trying to change the gap? Because almost all of the initiatives that I've heard of stem (bu dum tss) from encouraging women to pursue more lucrative careers", ">\n\nFirst, some policy proponents demand a market-wide change of the valuation of different types of work, which I don't find realistic. The reason tech pays well is because it scales well. Social doesn't scale.\nSecond, that's not the only argument I heard. I also heard the allegation that jobs are paid inversely proportional to the number of women in them, and that that needs to change. I can cite articles if you like, but that seems to be a pretty popular view.", ">\n\nI’m trying to understand what exactly what the assertion “the part of the gender pay gap that results from women and men being in different occupations should bot be closed” means, exactly.\nOn the surface it sounds a bit like “different jobs can and should pay differently” which unless you are the most rabid of socialists is pretty clearly true.\nWhat about the factors that cause men and women to make occupational choices?\nLike women tend to choose jobs that are traditionally dominated by women, and ones that are extra forgiving of long absences and/or can flip to part time / reduced hours - all of which is highly correlated to childbirth and nursing of infants.\nShould we as a society be taking any step to alleviate and share that burden?\nThe same question goes for different levels.\nThe job pay gap mostly goes away at same level - but what we tend to see is women being and seeking promotion less or transitioning out of the workforce in their late 20’s. Often for the same childcare related reason.\nShould we do anything here or not?", ">\n\nI'm not OP but I'm curious about this. \nIf I say society should not be taking steps to alleviate the decisions that women make in their life, you call them a 'burden' in some spots but you call them choices in other spots.\nIf I did say that, was your point going to be we should be?", ">\n\nMy phrasing - effectively “the choice to bear a burden” - was implicitly acknowledging it could be argued either way, and I was attempting to ask the question in a neutral way.\nI don’t have a well formed opinion here just yet. I tend to think that the ease of doing business - particularly making start-ups - is an enormous competitive advantage of the United States over Europe. I also see that the attrition rate of women on maternity leave is really high even in the most comfortable & well paid jobs. \nSo I tend to think that you start to get diminishing returns in efforts to try to de-program the way people tend to orient their family lives along gender roles.", ">\n\nI wonder if it's actually attrition for women in general or if it's just women going the way they really want to anyway.\nI know I've spoken to many women, and my wife, and my sister in law. \nI suspect it's fairly common that women who even had very professional jobs, find after they have had kids and go on maternity leave, they simply find \"Oh... this is actually much more important to me\".\nI wonder if they'd actually consider it attrition. \nWould you want to deprogram that type of thought process? I wouldn't think so really, on a personal level. perhaps an argument can be made on a generalized 'societal' level though.", ">\n\nI meant attrition in the way HR department use it - just a synonym for “left the job”, not as a suggestion of them being worn down by stress or other.\nI do think it’s common for women in their early 30’s, once established, to prefer family - and that’s fine.", ">\n\nyeah, we probably don't disagree on much of anything then, I don't really see any problems occuring from any of this that needs solved, and you seem to agree that the choices women make are fine as well." ]

[ "/u/Blutorangensaft (OP) has awarded 3 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nHow do you think people are trying to change the gap? Because almost all of the initiatives that I've heard of stem (bu dum tss) from encouraging women to pursue more lucrative careers", ">\n\nFirst, some policy proponents demand a market-wide change of the valuation of different types of work, which I don't find realistic. The reason tech pays well is because it scales well. Social doesn't scale.\nSecond, that's not the only argument I heard. I also heard the allegation that jobs are paid inversely proportional to the number of women in them, and that that needs to change. I can cite articles if you like, but that seems to be a pretty popular view.", ">\n\nI’m trying to understand what exactly what the assertion “the part of the gender pay gap that results from women and men being in different occupations should bot be closed” means, exactly.\nOn the surface it sounds a bit like “different jobs can and should pay differently” which unless you are the most rabid of socialists is pretty clearly true.\nWhat about the factors that cause men and women to make occupational choices?\nLike women tend to choose jobs that are traditionally dominated by women, and ones that are extra forgiving of long absences and/or can flip to part time / reduced hours - all of which is highly correlated to childbirth and nursing of infants.\nShould we as a society be taking any step to alleviate and share that burden?\nThe same question goes for different levels.\nThe job pay gap mostly goes away at same level - but what we tend to see is women being and seeking promotion less or transitioning out of the workforce in their late 20’s. Often for the same childcare related reason.\nShould we do anything here or not?", ">\n\nI'm not OP but I'm curious about this. \nIf I say society should not be taking steps to alleviate the decisions that women make in their life, you call them a 'burden' in some spots but you call them choices in other spots.\nIf I did say that, was your point going to be we should be?", ">\n\nMy phrasing - effectively “the choice to bear a burden” - was implicitly acknowledging it could be argued either way, and I was attempting to ask the question in a neutral way.\nI don’t have a well formed opinion here just yet. I tend to think that the ease of doing business - particularly making start-ups - is an enormous competitive advantage of the United States over Europe. I also see that the attrition rate of women on maternity leave is really high even in the most comfortable & well paid jobs. \nSo I tend to think that you start to get diminishing returns in efforts to try to de-program the way people tend to orient their family lives along gender roles.", ">\n\nI wonder if it's actually attrition for women in general or if it's just women going the way they really want to anyway.\nI know I've spoken to many women, and my wife, and my sister in law. \nI suspect it's fairly common that women who even had very professional jobs, find after they have had kids and go on maternity leave, they simply find \"Oh... this is actually much more important to me\".\nI wonder if they'd actually consider it attrition. \nWould you want to deprogram that type of thought process? I wouldn't think so really, on a personal level. perhaps an argument can be made on a generalized 'societal' level though.", ">\n\nI meant attrition in the way HR department use it - just a synonym for “left the job”, not as a suggestion of them being worn down by stress or other.\nI do think it’s common for women in their early 30’s, once established, to prefer family - and that’s fine.", ">\n\nyeah, we probably don't disagree on much of anything then, I don't really see any problems occuring from any of this that needs solved, and you seem to agree that the choices women make are fine as well.", ">\n\nThe question is, why is there a gap in occupational choice?\nFor centuries, until about the 1970s, the only careers broadly available to women were nurse, teacher, secretary, and social worker. Women were systematically barred from most prestigious, high-paying fields (business, banking, STEM, etc).\nNow, only a single generation after we’ve achieved “equality,” we still see a very high ratio of women in the occupational fields that they were traditionally forced into for centuries (nursing, teaching) while we see a low ratio of women in fields that were traditionally excluded from for centuries (finance, engineering, etc).\nNow, what is more likely? That it turns out that women never wanted to be engineers or bankers after all, and they just aren’t very good at it? \nOr is it that 40-50 years isn’t enough to entirely cleanse a culture of its ingrained ideas and prejudices around gender, and that there are still some residual effects from banning women from certain fields for hundreds of years, even if the explicit bans no longer exist?\nI’ll leave you with a personal anecdote—my mother is a very successful businesswoman in her 60s (the age of many successful CEOs and industry leaders). Yet when she was in middle and high school, all the girls in her class still had to take “Home Ec,” where they would learn to cook, clean, and sew.\nDo you not think being “trained” to be a housewife at the age of 13-15 might not seriously effect the later career choices of adult women?" ]

[ "/u/Blutorangensaft (OP) has awarded 3 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nHow do you think people are trying to change the gap? Because almost all of the initiatives that I've heard of stem (bu dum tss) from encouraging women to pursue more lucrative careers", ">\n\nFirst, some policy proponents demand a market-wide change of the valuation of different types of work, which I don't find realistic. The reason tech pays well is because it scales well. Social doesn't scale.\nSecond, that's not the only argument I heard. I also heard the allegation that jobs are paid inversely proportional to the number of women in them, and that that needs to change. I can cite articles if you like, but that seems to be a pretty popular view.", ">\n\nI’m trying to understand what exactly what the assertion “the part of the gender pay gap that results from women and men being in different occupations should bot be closed” means, exactly.\nOn the surface it sounds a bit like “different jobs can and should pay differently” which unless you are the most rabid of socialists is pretty clearly true.\nWhat about the factors that cause men and women to make occupational choices?\nLike women tend to choose jobs that are traditionally dominated by women, and ones that are extra forgiving of long absences and/or can flip to part time / reduced hours - all of which is highly correlated to childbirth and nursing of infants.\nShould we as a society be taking any step to alleviate and share that burden?\nThe same question goes for different levels.\nThe job pay gap mostly goes away at same level - but what we tend to see is women being and seeking promotion less or transitioning out of the workforce in their late 20’s. Often for the same childcare related reason.\nShould we do anything here or not?", ">\n\nI'm not OP but I'm curious about this. \nIf I say society should not be taking steps to alleviate the decisions that women make in their life, you call them a 'burden' in some spots but you call them choices in other spots.\nIf I did say that, was your point going to be we should be?", ">\n\nMy phrasing - effectively “the choice to bear a burden” - was implicitly acknowledging it could be argued either way, and I was attempting to ask the question in a neutral way.\nI don’t have a well formed opinion here just yet. I tend to think that the ease of doing business - particularly making start-ups - is an enormous competitive advantage of the United States over Europe. I also see that the attrition rate of women on maternity leave is really high even in the most comfortable & well paid jobs. \nSo I tend to think that you start to get diminishing returns in efforts to try to de-program the way people tend to orient their family lives along gender roles.", ">\n\nI wonder if it's actually attrition for women in general or if it's just women going the way they really want to anyway.\nI know I've spoken to many women, and my wife, and my sister in law. \nI suspect it's fairly common that women who even had very professional jobs, find after they have had kids and go on maternity leave, they simply find \"Oh... this is actually much more important to me\".\nI wonder if they'd actually consider it attrition. \nWould you want to deprogram that type of thought process? I wouldn't think so really, on a personal level. perhaps an argument can be made on a generalized 'societal' level though.", ">\n\nI meant attrition in the way HR department use it - just a synonym for “left the job”, not as a suggestion of them being worn down by stress or other.\nI do think it’s common for women in their early 30’s, once established, to prefer family - and that’s fine.", ">\n\nyeah, we probably don't disagree on much of anything then, I don't really see any problems occuring from any of this that needs solved, and you seem to agree that the choices women make are fine as well.", ">\n\nThe question is, why is there a gap in occupational choice?\nFor centuries, until about the 1970s, the only careers broadly available to women were nurse, teacher, secretary, and social worker. Women were systematically barred from most prestigious, high-paying fields (business, banking, STEM, etc).\nNow, only a single generation after we’ve achieved “equality,” we still see a very high ratio of women in the occupational fields that they were traditionally forced into for centuries (nursing, teaching) while we see a low ratio of women in fields that were traditionally excluded from for centuries (finance, engineering, etc).\nNow, what is more likely? That it turns out that women never wanted to be engineers or bankers after all, and they just aren’t very good at it? \nOr is it that 40-50 years isn’t enough to entirely cleanse a culture of its ingrained ideas and prejudices around gender, and that there are still some residual effects from banning women from certain fields for hundreds of years, even if the explicit bans no longer exist?\nI’ll leave you with a personal anecdote—my mother is a very successful businesswoman in her 60s (the age of many successful CEOs and industry leaders). Yet when she was in middle and high school, all the girls in her class still had to take “Home Ec,” where they would learn to cook, clean, and sew.\nDo you not think being “trained” to be a housewife at the age of 13-15 might not seriously effect the later career choices of adult women?", ">\n\nI agree with you on all that. What I'm having trouble with is people who believe that, eventually, everything will even out and we will have 50/50 in every job, especially the ones that pay well. I believe that's just wishful thinking, because, despite all the barriers that women have faced in the past, once they are overthrown, what will remain are biological differences and temperamental differences. Personality tests have long shown gender differences, and they translate to interests in different occupations as well. That also manifests in the people-vs-things dichotomy, where men are more interested in things, and women more interested in people. So, I don't know how the future will look like. But it won't be 50/50. So we have to think about why certain jobs are paid more and others are paid less, and what being a woman has to do with that." ]

[ "/u/Blutorangensaft (OP) has awarded 3 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nHow do you think people are trying to change the gap? Because almost all of the initiatives that I've heard of stem (bu dum tss) from encouraging women to pursue more lucrative careers", ">\n\nFirst, some policy proponents demand a market-wide change of the valuation of different types of work, which I don't find realistic. The reason tech pays well is because it scales well. Social doesn't scale.\nSecond, that's not the only argument I heard. I also heard the allegation that jobs are paid inversely proportional to the number of women in them, and that that needs to change. I can cite articles if you like, but that seems to be a pretty popular view.", ">\n\nI’m trying to understand what exactly what the assertion “the part of the gender pay gap that results from women and men being in different occupations should bot be closed” means, exactly.\nOn the surface it sounds a bit like “different jobs can and should pay differently” which unless you are the most rabid of socialists is pretty clearly true.\nWhat about the factors that cause men and women to make occupational choices?\nLike women tend to choose jobs that are traditionally dominated by women, and ones that are extra forgiving of long absences and/or can flip to part time / reduced hours - all of which is highly correlated to childbirth and nursing of infants.\nShould we as a society be taking any step to alleviate and share that burden?\nThe same question goes for different levels.\nThe job pay gap mostly goes away at same level - but what we tend to see is women being and seeking promotion less or transitioning out of the workforce in their late 20’s. Often for the same childcare related reason.\nShould we do anything here or not?", ">\n\nI'm not OP but I'm curious about this. \nIf I say society should not be taking steps to alleviate the decisions that women make in their life, you call them a 'burden' in some spots but you call them choices in other spots.\nIf I did say that, was your point going to be we should be?", ">\n\nMy phrasing - effectively “the choice to bear a burden” - was implicitly acknowledging it could be argued either way, and I was attempting to ask the question in a neutral way.\nI don’t have a well formed opinion here just yet. I tend to think that the ease of doing business - particularly making start-ups - is an enormous competitive advantage of the United States over Europe. I also see that the attrition rate of women on maternity leave is really high even in the most comfortable & well paid jobs. \nSo I tend to think that you start to get diminishing returns in efforts to try to de-program the way people tend to orient their family lives along gender roles.", ">\n\nI wonder if it's actually attrition for women in general or if it's just women going the way they really want to anyway.\nI know I've spoken to many women, and my wife, and my sister in law. \nI suspect it's fairly common that women who even had very professional jobs, find after they have had kids and go on maternity leave, they simply find \"Oh... this is actually much more important to me\".\nI wonder if they'd actually consider it attrition. \nWould you want to deprogram that type of thought process? I wouldn't think so really, on a personal level. perhaps an argument can be made on a generalized 'societal' level though.", ">\n\nI meant attrition in the way HR department use it - just a synonym for “left the job”, not as a suggestion of them being worn down by stress or other.\nI do think it’s common for women in their early 30’s, once established, to prefer family - and that’s fine.", ">\n\nyeah, we probably don't disagree on much of anything then, I don't really see any problems occuring from any of this that needs solved, and you seem to agree that the choices women make are fine as well.", ">\n\nThe question is, why is there a gap in occupational choice?\nFor centuries, until about the 1970s, the only careers broadly available to women were nurse, teacher, secretary, and social worker. Women were systematically barred from most prestigious, high-paying fields (business, banking, STEM, etc).\nNow, only a single generation after we’ve achieved “equality,” we still see a very high ratio of women in the occupational fields that they were traditionally forced into for centuries (nursing, teaching) while we see a low ratio of women in fields that were traditionally excluded from for centuries (finance, engineering, etc).\nNow, what is more likely? That it turns out that women never wanted to be engineers or bankers after all, and they just aren’t very good at it? \nOr is it that 40-50 years isn’t enough to entirely cleanse a culture of its ingrained ideas and prejudices around gender, and that there are still some residual effects from banning women from certain fields for hundreds of years, even if the explicit bans no longer exist?\nI’ll leave you with a personal anecdote—my mother is a very successful businesswoman in her 60s (the age of many successful CEOs and industry leaders). Yet when she was in middle and high school, all the girls in her class still had to take “Home Ec,” where they would learn to cook, clean, and sew.\nDo you not think being “trained” to be a housewife at the age of 13-15 might not seriously effect the later career choices of adult women?", ">\n\nI agree with you on all that. What I'm having trouble with is people who believe that, eventually, everything will even out and we will have 50/50 in every job, especially the ones that pay well. I believe that's just wishful thinking, because, despite all the barriers that women have faced in the past, once they are overthrown, what will remain are biological differences and temperamental differences. Personality tests have long shown gender differences, and they translate to interests in different occupations as well. That also manifests in the people-vs-things dichotomy, where men are more interested in things, and women more interested in people. So, I don't know how the future will look like. But it won't be 50/50. So we have to think about why certain jobs are paid more and others are paid less, and what being a woman has to do with that.", ">\n\nI don't think anyone -- except maybe the most extreme radicals -- believe that 'closing the gender gap' means that every field needs to be exactly 50/50.\nWhen most people refer to 'closing the gender gap,' I think they're referring to things like STEM programs for young girls, breaking up the 'good ol' boy' networking system, making many careers more flexible for women caring for young children, etc.\nIn terms of personality tests, etc, I do agree there are certain biological differences that affect personality. But it's also a 'nature v. nurture' thing.\nGoing back to the example of my mother having to take Home Economics, almost every woman (and man) of her generation had it ingrained into them at a very young age that, \"A successful woman is one who cooks, cleans, and takes care of her husband and children above herself.\" Do you not think that might affect self-image and personality as an adult? After all, her male peers were not being taught how to cook a tart and repair a stocking in school." ]

[ "/u/Blutorangensaft (OP) has awarded 3 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nHow do you think people are trying to change the gap? Because almost all of the initiatives that I've heard of stem (bu dum tss) from encouraging women to pursue more lucrative careers", ">\n\nFirst, some policy proponents demand a market-wide change of the valuation of different types of work, which I don't find realistic. The reason tech pays well is because it scales well. Social doesn't scale.\nSecond, that's not the only argument I heard. I also heard the allegation that jobs are paid inversely proportional to the number of women in them, and that that needs to change. I can cite articles if you like, but that seems to be a pretty popular view.", ">\n\nI’m trying to understand what exactly what the assertion “the part of the gender pay gap that results from women and men being in different occupations should bot be closed” means, exactly.\nOn the surface it sounds a bit like “different jobs can and should pay differently” which unless you are the most rabid of socialists is pretty clearly true.\nWhat about the factors that cause men and women to make occupational choices?\nLike women tend to choose jobs that are traditionally dominated by women, and ones that are extra forgiving of long absences and/or can flip to part time / reduced hours - all of which is highly correlated to childbirth and nursing of infants.\nShould we as a society be taking any step to alleviate and share that burden?\nThe same question goes for different levels.\nThe job pay gap mostly goes away at same level - but what we tend to see is women being and seeking promotion less or transitioning out of the workforce in their late 20’s. Often for the same childcare related reason.\nShould we do anything here or not?", ">\n\nI'm not OP but I'm curious about this. \nIf I say society should not be taking steps to alleviate the decisions that women make in their life, you call them a 'burden' in some spots but you call them choices in other spots.\nIf I did say that, was your point going to be we should be?", ">\n\nMy phrasing - effectively “the choice to bear a burden” - was implicitly acknowledging it could be argued either way, and I was attempting to ask the question in a neutral way.\nI don’t have a well formed opinion here just yet. I tend to think that the ease of doing business - particularly making start-ups - is an enormous competitive advantage of the United States over Europe. I also see that the attrition rate of women on maternity leave is really high even in the most comfortable & well paid jobs. \nSo I tend to think that you start to get diminishing returns in efforts to try to de-program the way people tend to orient their family lives along gender roles.", ">\n\nI wonder if it's actually attrition for women in general or if it's just women going the way they really want to anyway.\nI know I've spoken to many women, and my wife, and my sister in law. \nI suspect it's fairly common that women who even had very professional jobs, find after they have had kids and go on maternity leave, they simply find \"Oh... this is actually much more important to me\".\nI wonder if they'd actually consider it attrition. \nWould you want to deprogram that type of thought process? I wouldn't think so really, on a personal level. perhaps an argument can be made on a generalized 'societal' level though.", ">\n\nI meant attrition in the way HR department use it - just a synonym for “left the job”, not as a suggestion of them being worn down by stress or other.\nI do think it’s common for women in their early 30’s, once established, to prefer family - and that’s fine.", ">\n\nyeah, we probably don't disagree on much of anything then, I don't really see any problems occuring from any of this that needs solved, and you seem to agree that the choices women make are fine as well.", ">\n\nThe question is, why is there a gap in occupational choice?\nFor centuries, until about the 1970s, the only careers broadly available to women were nurse, teacher, secretary, and social worker. Women were systematically barred from most prestigious, high-paying fields (business, banking, STEM, etc).\nNow, only a single generation after we’ve achieved “equality,” we still see a very high ratio of women in the occupational fields that they were traditionally forced into for centuries (nursing, teaching) while we see a low ratio of women in fields that were traditionally excluded from for centuries (finance, engineering, etc).\nNow, what is more likely? That it turns out that women never wanted to be engineers or bankers after all, and they just aren’t very good at it? \nOr is it that 40-50 years isn’t enough to entirely cleanse a culture of its ingrained ideas and prejudices around gender, and that there are still some residual effects from banning women from certain fields for hundreds of years, even if the explicit bans no longer exist?\nI’ll leave you with a personal anecdote—my mother is a very successful businesswoman in her 60s (the age of many successful CEOs and industry leaders). Yet when she was in middle and high school, all the girls in her class still had to take “Home Ec,” where they would learn to cook, clean, and sew.\nDo you not think being “trained” to be a housewife at the age of 13-15 might not seriously effect the later career choices of adult women?", ">\n\nI agree with you on all that. What I'm having trouble with is people who believe that, eventually, everything will even out and we will have 50/50 in every job, especially the ones that pay well. I believe that's just wishful thinking, because, despite all the barriers that women have faced in the past, once they are overthrown, what will remain are biological differences and temperamental differences. Personality tests have long shown gender differences, and they translate to interests in different occupations as well. That also manifests in the people-vs-things dichotomy, where men are more interested in things, and women more interested in people. So, I don't know how the future will look like. But it won't be 50/50. So we have to think about why certain jobs are paid more and others are paid less, and what being a woman has to do with that.", ">\n\nI don't think anyone -- except maybe the most extreme radicals -- believe that 'closing the gender gap' means that every field needs to be exactly 50/50.\nWhen most people refer to 'closing the gender gap,' I think they're referring to things like STEM programs for young girls, breaking up the 'good ol' boy' networking system, making many careers more flexible for women caring for young children, etc.\nIn terms of personality tests, etc, I do agree there are certain biological differences that affect personality. But it's also a 'nature v. nurture' thing.\nGoing back to the example of my mother having to take Home Economics, almost every woman (and man) of her generation had it ingrained into them at a very young age that, \"A successful woman is one who cooks, cleans, and takes care of her husband and children above herself.\" Do you not think that might affect self-image and personality as an adult? After all, her male peers were not being taught how to cook a tart and repair a stocking in school.", ">\n\nI agree with everything you wrote, especially how a personality and interest is also shaped by societal norms. Well said. I guess I was just looking for a nutjob to defend a 50-50 split for every occupation, just to understand their reasoning." ]

[ "/u/Blutorangensaft (OP) has awarded 3 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nHow do you think people are trying to change the gap? Because almost all of the initiatives that I've heard of stem (bu dum tss) from encouraging women to pursue more lucrative careers", ">\n\nFirst, some policy proponents demand a market-wide change of the valuation of different types of work, which I don't find realistic. The reason tech pays well is because it scales well. Social doesn't scale.\nSecond, that's not the only argument I heard. I also heard the allegation that jobs are paid inversely proportional to the number of women in them, and that that needs to change. I can cite articles if you like, but that seems to be a pretty popular view.", ">\n\nI’m trying to understand what exactly what the assertion “the part of the gender pay gap that results from women and men being in different occupations should bot be closed” means, exactly.\nOn the surface it sounds a bit like “different jobs can and should pay differently” which unless you are the most rabid of socialists is pretty clearly true.\nWhat about the factors that cause men and women to make occupational choices?\nLike women tend to choose jobs that are traditionally dominated by women, and ones that are extra forgiving of long absences and/or can flip to part time / reduced hours - all of which is highly correlated to childbirth and nursing of infants.\nShould we as a society be taking any step to alleviate and share that burden?\nThe same question goes for different levels.\nThe job pay gap mostly goes away at same level - but what we tend to see is women being and seeking promotion less or transitioning out of the workforce in their late 20’s. Often for the same childcare related reason.\nShould we do anything here or not?", ">\n\nI'm not OP but I'm curious about this. \nIf I say society should not be taking steps to alleviate the decisions that women make in their life, you call them a 'burden' in some spots but you call them choices in other spots.\nIf I did say that, was your point going to be we should be?", ">\n\nMy phrasing - effectively “the choice to bear a burden” - was implicitly acknowledging it could be argued either way, and I was attempting to ask the question in a neutral way.\nI don’t have a well formed opinion here just yet. I tend to think that the ease of doing business - particularly making start-ups - is an enormous competitive advantage of the United States over Europe. I also see that the attrition rate of women on maternity leave is really high even in the most comfortable & well paid jobs. \nSo I tend to think that you start to get diminishing returns in efforts to try to de-program the way people tend to orient their family lives along gender roles.", ">\n\nI wonder if it's actually attrition for women in general or if it's just women going the way they really want to anyway.\nI know I've spoken to many women, and my wife, and my sister in law. \nI suspect it's fairly common that women who even had very professional jobs, find after they have had kids and go on maternity leave, they simply find \"Oh... this is actually much more important to me\".\nI wonder if they'd actually consider it attrition. \nWould you want to deprogram that type of thought process? I wouldn't think so really, on a personal level. perhaps an argument can be made on a generalized 'societal' level though.", ">\n\nI meant attrition in the way HR department use it - just a synonym for “left the job”, not as a suggestion of them being worn down by stress or other.\nI do think it’s common for women in their early 30’s, once established, to prefer family - and that’s fine.", ">\n\nyeah, we probably don't disagree on much of anything then, I don't really see any problems occuring from any of this that needs solved, and you seem to agree that the choices women make are fine as well.", ">\n\nThe question is, why is there a gap in occupational choice?\nFor centuries, until about the 1970s, the only careers broadly available to women were nurse, teacher, secretary, and social worker. Women were systematically barred from most prestigious, high-paying fields (business, banking, STEM, etc).\nNow, only a single generation after we’ve achieved “equality,” we still see a very high ratio of women in the occupational fields that they were traditionally forced into for centuries (nursing, teaching) while we see a low ratio of women in fields that were traditionally excluded from for centuries (finance, engineering, etc).\nNow, what is more likely? That it turns out that women never wanted to be engineers or bankers after all, and they just aren’t very good at it? \nOr is it that 40-50 years isn’t enough to entirely cleanse a culture of its ingrained ideas and prejudices around gender, and that there are still some residual effects from banning women from certain fields for hundreds of years, even if the explicit bans no longer exist?\nI’ll leave you with a personal anecdote—my mother is a very successful businesswoman in her 60s (the age of many successful CEOs and industry leaders). Yet when she was in middle and high school, all the girls in her class still had to take “Home Ec,” where they would learn to cook, clean, and sew.\nDo you not think being “trained” to be a housewife at the age of 13-15 might not seriously effect the later career choices of adult women?", ">\n\nI agree with you on all that. What I'm having trouble with is people who believe that, eventually, everything will even out and we will have 50/50 in every job, especially the ones that pay well. I believe that's just wishful thinking, because, despite all the barriers that women have faced in the past, once they are overthrown, what will remain are biological differences and temperamental differences. Personality tests have long shown gender differences, and they translate to interests in different occupations as well. That also manifests in the people-vs-things dichotomy, where men are more interested in things, and women more interested in people. So, I don't know how the future will look like. But it won't be 50/50. So we have to think about why certain jobs are paid more and others are paid less, and what being a woman has to do with that.", ">\n\nI don't think anyone -- except maybe the most extreme radicals -- believe that 'closing the gender gap' means that every field needs to be exactly 50/50.\nWhen most people refer to 'closing the gender gap,' I think they're referring to things like STEM programs for young girls, breaking up the 'good ol' boy' networking system, making many careers more flexible for women caring for young children, etc.\nIn terms of personality tests, etc, I do agree there are certain biological differences that affect personality. But it's also a 'nature v. nurture' thing.\nGoing back to the example of my mother having to take Home Economics, almost every woman (and man) of her generation had it ingrained into them at a very young age that, \"A successful woman is one who cooks, cleans, and takes care of her husband and children above herself.\" Do you not think that might affect self-image and personality as an adult? After all, her male peers were not being taught how to cook a tart and repair a stocking in school.", ">\n\nI agree with everything you wrote, especially how a personality and interest is also shaped by societal norms. Well said. I guess I was just looking for a nutjob to defend a 50-50 split for every occupation, just to understand their reasoning.", ">\n\nWouldn't it be because there is a larger supply of workers?\nLike if suddenly there was a huge uptick of female doctors available. Because in 2010 we finally allowed women into the medical field. That would ease some of the scarcity we have for doctors. And thus naturally lower their wages." ]

[ "/u/Blutorangensaft (OP) has awarded 3 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nHow do you think people are trying to change the gap? Because almost all of the initiatives that I've heard of stem (bu dum tss) from encouraging women to pursue more lucrative careers", ">\n\nFirst, some policy proponents demand a market-wide change of the valuation of different types of work, which I don't find realistic. The reason tech pays well is because it scales well. Social doesn't scale.\nSecond, that's not the only argument I heard. I also heard the allegation that jobs are paid inversely proportional to the number of women in them, and that that needs to change. I can cite articles if you like, but that seems to be a pretty popular view.", ">\n\nI’m trying to understand what exactly what the assertion “the part of the gender pay gap that results from women and men being in different occupations should bot be closed” means, exactly.\nOn the surface it sounds a bit like “different jobs can and should pay differently” which unless you are the most rabid of socialists is pretty clearly true.\nWhat about the factors that cause men and women to make occupational choices?\nLike women tend to choose jobs that are traditionally dominated by women, and ones that are extra forgiving of long absences and/or can flip to part time / reduced hours - all of which is highly correlated to childbirth and nursing of infants.\nShould we as a society be taking any step to alleviate and share that burden?\nThe same question goes for different levels.\nThe job pay gap mostly goes away at same level - but what we tend to see is women being and seeking promotion less or transitioning out of the workforce in their late 20’s. Often for the same childcare related reason.\nShould we do anything here or not?", ">\n\nI'm not OP but I'm curious about this. \nIf I say society should not be taking steps to alleviate the decisions that women make in their life, you call them a 'burden' in some spots but you call them choices in other spots.\nIf I did say that, was your point going to be we should be?", ">\n\nMy phrasing - effectively “the choice to bear a burden” - was implicitly acknowledging it could be argued either way, and I was attempting to ask the question in a neutral way.\nI don’t have a well formed opinion here just yet. I tend to think that the ease of doing business - particularly making start-ups - is an enormous competitive advantage of the United States over Europe. I also see that the attrition rate of women on maternity leave is really high even in the most comfortable & well paid jobs. \nSo I tend to think that you start to get diminishing returns in efforts to try to de-program the way people tend to orient their family lives along gender roles.", ">\n\nI wonder if it's actually attrition for women in general or if it's just women going the way they really want to anyway.\nI know I've spoken to many women, and my wife, and my sister in law. \nI suspect it's fairly common that women who even had very professional jobs, find after they have had kids and go on maternity leave, they simply find \"Oh... this is actually much more important to me\".\nI wonder if they'd actually consider it attrition. \nWould you want to deprogram that type of thought process? I wouldn't think so really, on a personal level. perhaps an argument can be made on a generalized 'societal' level though.", ">\n\nI meant attrition in the way HR department use it - just a synonym for “left the job”, not as a suggestion of them being worn down by stress or other.\nI do think it’s common for women in their early 30’s, once established, to prefer family - and that’s fine.", ">\n\nyeah, we probably don't disagree on much of anything then, I don't really see any problems occuring from any of this that needs solved, and you seem to agree that the choices women make are fine as well.", ">\n\nThe question is, why is there a gap in occupational choice?\nFor centuries, until about the 1970s, the only careers broadly available to women were nurse, teacher, secretary, and social worker. Women were systematically barred from most prestigious, high-paying fields (business, banking, STEM, etc).\nNow, only a single generation after we’ve achieved “equality,” we still see a very high ratio of women in the occupational fields that they were traditionally forced into for centuries (nursing, teaching) while we see a low ratio of women in fields that were traditionally excluded from for centuries (finance, engineering, etc).\nNow, what is more likely? That it turns out that women never wanted to be engineers or bankers after all, and they just aren’t very good at it? \nOr is it that 40-50 years isn’t enough to entirely cleanse a culture of its ingrained ideas and prejudices around gender, and that there are still some residual effects from banning women from certain fields for hundreds of years, even if the explicit bans no longer exist?\nI’ll leave you with a personal anecdote—my mother is a very successful businesswoman in her 60s (the age of many successful CEOs and industry leaders). Yet when she was in middle and high school, all the girls in her class still had to take “Home Ec,” where they would learn to cook, clean, and sew.\nDo you not think being “trained” to be a housewife at the age of 13-15 might not seriously effect the later career choices of adult women?", ">\n\nI agree with you on all that. What I'm having trouble with is people who believe that, eventually, everything will even out and we will have 50/50 in every job, especially the ones that pay well. I believe that's just wishful thinking, because, despite all the barriers that women have faced in the past, once they are overthrown, what will remain are biological differences and temperamental differences. Personality tests have long shown gender differences, and they translate to interests in different occupations as well. That also manifests in the people-vs-things dichotomy, where men are more interested in things, and women more interested in people. So, I don't know how the future will look like. But it won't be 50/50. So we have to think about why certain jobs are paid more and others are paid less, and what being a woman has to do with that.", ">\n\nI don't think anyone -- except maybe the most extreme radicals -- believe that 'closing the gender gap' means that every field needs to be exactly 50/50.\nWhen most people refer to 'closing the gender gap,' I think they're referring to things like STEM programs for young girls, breaking up the 'good ol' boy' networking system, making many careers more flexible for women caring for young children, etc.\nIn terms of personality tests, etc, I do agree there are certain biological differences that affect personality. But it's also a 'nature v. nurture' thing.\nGoing back to the example of my mother having to take Home Economics, almost every woman (and man) of her generation had it ingrained into them at a very young age that, \"A successful woman is one who cooks, cleans, and takes care of her husband and children above herself.\" Do you not think that might affect self-image and personality as an adult? After all, her male peers were not being taught how to cook a tart and repair a stocking in school.", ">\n\nI agree with everything you wrote, especially how a personality and interest is also shaped by societal norms. Well said. I guess I was just looking for a nutjob to defend a 50-50 split for every occupation, just to understand their reasoning.", ">\n\nWouldn't it be because there is a larger supply of workers?\nLike if suddenly there was a huge uptick of female doctors available. Because in 2010 we finally allowed women into the medical field. That would ease some of the scarcity we have for doctors. And thus naturally lower their wages.", ">\n\n\nThe same thing happened when women in large numbers became designers (wages fell 34 percentage points), housekeepers (wages fell 21 percentage points) and biologists (wages fell 18 percentage points). The reverse was true when a job attracted more men. Computer programming, for instance, used to be a relatively menial role done by women. But when male programmers began to outnumber female ones, the job began paying more and gained prestige.\n\nThis would not explain how when more men enter a field, pay goes up. It's not a factor of supply and demand. Women's work is valued less." ]

[ "/u/Blutorangensaft (OP) has awarded 3 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nHow do you think people are trying to change the gap? Because almost all of the initiatives that I've heard of stem (bu dum tss) from encouraging women to pursue more lucrative careers", ">\n\nFirst, some policy proponents demand a market-wide change of the valuation of different types of work, which I don't find realistic. The reason tech pays well is because it scales well. Social doesn't scale.\nSecond, that's not the only argument I heard. I also heard the allegation that jobs are paid inversely proportional to the number of women in them, and that that needs to change. I can cite articles if you like, but that seems to be a pretty popular view.", ">\n\nI’m trying to understand what exactly what the assertion “the part of the gender pay gap that results from women and men being in different occupations should bot be closed” means, exactly.\nOn the surface it sounds a bit like “different jobs can and should pay differently” which unless you are the most rabid of socialists is pretty clearly true.\nWhat about the factors that cause men and women to make occupational choices?\nLike women tend to choose jobs that are traditionally dominated by women, and ones that are extra forgiving of long absences and/or can flip to part time / reduced hours - all of which is highly correlated to childbirth and nursing of infants.\nShould we as a society be taking any step to alleviate and share that burden?\nThe same question goes for different levels.\nThe job pay gap mostly goes away at same level - but what we tend to see is women being and seeking promotion less or transitioning out of the workforce in their late 20’s. Often for the same childcare related reason.\nShould we do anything here or not?", ">\n\nI'm not OP but I'm curious about this. \nIf I say society should not be taking steps to alleviate the decisions that women make in their life, you call them a 'burden' in some spots but you call them choices in other spots.\nIf I did say that, was your point going to be we should be?", ">\n\nMy phrasing - effectively “the choice to bear a burden” - was implicitly acknowledging it could be argued either way, and I was attempting to ask the question in a neutral way.\nI don’t have a well formed opinion here just yet. I tend to think that the ease of doing business - particularly making start-ups - is an enormous competitive advantage of the United States over Europe. I also see that the attrition rate of women on maternity leave is really high even in the most comfortable & well paid jobs. \nSo I tend to think that you start to get diminishing returns in efforts to try to de-program the way people tend to orient their family lives along gender roles.", ">\n\nI wonder if it's actually attrition for women in general or if it's just women going the way they really want to anyway.\nI know I've spoken to many women, and my wife, and my sister in law. \nI suspect it's fairly common that women who even had very professional jobs, find after they have had kids and go on maternity leave, they simply find \"Oh... this is actually much more important to me\".\nI wonder if they'd actually consider it attrition. \nWould you want to deprogram that type of thought process? I wouldn't think so really, on a personal level. perhaps an argument can be made on a generalized 'societal' level though.", ">\n\nI meant attrition in the way HR department use it - just a synonym for “left the job”, not as a suggestion of them being worn down by stress or other.\nI do think it’s common for women in their early 30’s, once established, to prefer family - and that’s fine.", ">\n\nyeah, we probably don't disagree on much of anything then, I don't really see any problems occuring from any of this that needs solved, and you seem to agree that the choices women make are fine as well.", ">\n\nThe question is, why is there a gap in occupational choice?\nFor centuries, until about the 1970s, the only careers broadly available to women were nurse, teacher, secretary, and social worker. Women were systematically barred from most prestigious, high-paying fields (business, banking, STEM, etc).\nNow, only a single generation after we’ve achieved “equality,” we still see a very high ratio of women in the occupational fields that they were traditionally forced into for centuries (nursing, teaching) while we see a low ratio of women in fields that were traditionally excluded from for centuries (finance, engineering, etc).\nNow, what is more likely? That it turns out that women never wanted to be engineers or bankers after all, and they just aren’t very good at it? \nOr is it that 40-50 years isn’t enough to entirely cleanse a culture of its ingrained ideas and prejudices around gender, and that there are still some residual effects from banning women from certain fields for hundreds of years, even if the explicit bans no longer exist?\nI’ll leave you with a personal anecdote—my mother is a very successful businesswoman in her 60s (the age of many successful CEOs and industry leaders). Yet when she was in middle and high school, all the girls in her class still had to take “Home Ec,” where they would learn to cook, clean, and sew.\nDo you not think being “trained” to be a housewife at the age of 13-15 might not seriously effect the later career choices of adult women?", ">\n\nI agree with you on all that. What I'm having trouble with is people who believe that, eventually, everything will even out and we will have 50/50 in every job, especially the ones that pay well. I believe that's just wishful thinking, because, despite all the barriers that women have faced in the past, once they are overthrown, what will remain are biological differences and temperamental differences. Personality tests have long shown gender differences, and they translate to interests in different occupations as well. That also manifests in the people-vs-things dichotomy, where men are more interested in things, and women more interested in people. So, I don't know how the future will look like. But it won't be 50/50. So we have to think about why certain jobs are paid more and others are paid less, and what being a woman has to do with that.", ">\n\nI don't think anyone -- except maybe the most extreme radicals -- believe that 'closing the gender gap' means that every field needs to be exactly 50/50.\nWhen most people refer to 'closing the gender gap,' I think they're referring to things like STEM programs for young girls, breaking up the 'good ol' boy' networking system, making many careers more flexible for women caring for young children, etc.\nIn terms of personality tests, etc, I do agree there are certain biological differences that affect personality. But it's also a 'nature v. nurture' thing.\nGoing back to the example of my mother having to take Home Economics, almost every woman (and man) of her generation had it ingrained into them at a very young age that, \"A successful woman is one who cooks, cleans, and takes care of her husband and children above herself.\" Do you not think that might affect self-image and personality as an adult? After all, her male peers were not being taught how to cook a tart and repair a stocking in school.", ">\n\nI agree with everything you wrote, especially how a personality and interest is also shaped by societal norms. Well said. I guess I was just looking for a nutjob to defend a 50-50 split for every occupation, just to understand their reasoning.", ">\n\nWouldn't it be because there is a larger supply of workers?\nLike if suddenly there was a huge uptick of female doctors available. Because in 2010 we finally allowed women into the medical field. That would ease some of the scarcity we have for doctors. And thus naturally lower their wages.", ">\n\n\nThe same thing happened when women in large numbers became designers (wages fell 34 percentage points), housekeepers (wages fell 21 percentage points) and biologists (wages fell 18 percentage points). The reverse was true when a job attracted more men. Computer programming, for instance, used to be a relatively menial role done by women. But when male programmers began to outnumber female ones, the job began paying more and gained prestige.\n\nThis would not explain how when more men enter a field, pay goes up. It's not a factor of supply and demand. Women's work is valued less.", ">\n\nMaybe male programmers did a better job who knows. \nComputer programming in general seems like a terrible example though. It's a market that has absolutely exploded in the last 30 years. Even if no male on planet earth would have entered that field. With how much computers do for us nowadays computer programmers would have had a major shift in importance and pay." ]

[ "/u/Blutorangensaft (OP) has awarded 3 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nHow do you think people are trying to change the gap? Because almost all of the initiatives that I've heard of stem (bu dum tss) from encouraging women to pursue more lucrative careers", ">\n\nFirst, some policy proponents demand a market-wide change of the valuation of different types of work, which I don't find realistic. The reason tech pays well is because it scales well. Social doesn't scale.\nSecond, that's not the only argument I heard. I also heard the allegation that jobs are paid inversely proportional to the number of women in them, and that that needs to change. I can cite articles if you like, but that seems to be a pretty popular view.", ">\n\nI’m trying to understand what exactly what the assertion “the part of the gender pay gap that results from women and men being in different occupations should bot be closed” means, exactly.\nOn the surface it sounds a bit like “different jobs can and should pay differently” which unless you are the most rabid of socialists is pretty clearly true.\nWhat about the factors that cause men and women to make occupational choices?\nLike women tend to choose jobs that are traditionally dominated by women, and ones that are extra forgiving of long absences and/or can flip to part time / reduced hours - all of which is highly correlated to childbirth and nursing of infants.\nShould we as a society be taking any step to alleviate and share that burden?\nThe same question goes for different levels.\nThe job pay gap mostly goes away at same level - but what we tend to see is women being and seeking promotion less or transitioning out of the workforce in their late 20’s. Often for the same childcare related reason.\nShould we do anything here or not?", ">\n\nI'm not OP but I'm curious about this. \nIf I say society should not be taking steps to alleviate the decisions that women make in their life, you call them a 'burden' in some spots but you call them choices in other spots.\nIf I did say that, was your point going to be we should be?", ">\n\nMy phrasing - effectively “the choice to bear a burden” - was implicitly acknowledging it could be argued either way, and I was attempting to ask the question in a neutral way.\nI don’t have a well formed opinion here just yet. I tend to think that the ease of doing business - particularly making start-ups - is an enormous competitive advantage of the United States over Europe. I also see that the attrition rate of women on maternity leave is really high even in the most comfortable & well paid jobs. \nSo I tend to think that you start to get diminishing returns in efforts to try to de-program the way people tend to orient their family lives along gender roles.", ">\n\nI wonder if it's actually attrition for women in general or if it's just women going the way they really want to anyway.\nI know I've spoken to many women, and my wife, and my sister in law. \nI suspect it's fairly common that women who even had very professional jobs, find after they have had kids and go on maternity leave, they simply find \"Oh... this is actually much more important to me\".\nI wonder if they'd actually consider it attrition. \nWould you want to deprogram that type of thought process? I wouldn't think so really, on a personal level. perhaps an argument can be made on a generalized 'societal' level though.", ">\n\nI meant attrition in the way HR department use it - just a synonym for “left the job”, not as a suggestion of them being worn down by stress or other.\nI do think it’s common for women in their early 30’s, once established, to prefer family - and that’s fine.", ">\n\nyeah, we probably don't disagree on much of anything then, I don't really see any problems occuring from any of this that needs solved, and you seem to agree that the choices women make are fine as well.", ">\n\nThe question is, why is there a gap in occupational choice?\nFor centuries, until about the 1970s, the only careers broadly available to women were nurse, teacher, secretary, and social worker. Women were systematically barred from most prestigious, high-paying fields (business, banking, STEM, etc).\nNow, only a single generation after we’ve achieved “equality,” we still see a very high ratio of women in the occupational fields that they were traditionally forced into for centuries (nursing, teaching) while we see a low ratio of women in fields that were traditionally excluded from for centuries (finance, engineering, etc).\nNow, what is more likely? That it turns out that women never wanted to be engineers or bankers after all, and they just aren’t very good at it? \nOr is it that 40-50 years isn’t enough to entirely cleanse a culture of its ingrained ideas and prejudices around gender, and that there are still some residual effects from banning women from certain fields for hundreds of years, even if the explicit bans no longer exist?\nI’ll leave you with a personal anecdote—my mother is a very successful businesswoman in her 60s (the age of many successful CEOs and industry leaders). Yet when she was in middle and high school, all the girls in her class still had to take “Home Ec,” where they would learn to cook, clean, and sew.\nDo you not think being “trained” to be a housewife at the age of 13-15 might not seriously effect the later career choices of adult women?", ">\n\nI agree with you on all that. What I'm having trouble with is people who believe that, eventually, everything will even out and we will have 50/50 in every job, especially the ones that pay well. I believe that's just wishful thinking, because, despite all the barriers that women have faced in the past, once they are overthrown, what will remain are biological differences and temperamental differences. Personality tests have long shown gender differences, and they translate to interests in different occupations as well. That also manifests in the people-vs-things dichotomy, where men are more interested in things, and women more interested in people. So, I don't know how the future will look like. But it won't be 50/50. So we have to think about why certain jobs are paid more and others are paid less, and what being a woman has to do with that.", ">\n\nI don't think anyone -- except maybe the most extreme radicals -- believe that 'closing the gender gap' means that every field needs to be exactly 50/50.\nWhen most people refer to 'closing the gender gap,' I think they're referring to things like STEM programs for young girls, breaking up the 'good ol' boy' networking system, making many careers more flexible for women caring for young children, etc.\nIn terms of personality tests, etc, I do agree there are certain biological differences that affect personality. But it's also a 'nature v. nurture' thing.\nGoing back to the example of my mother having to take Home Economics, almost every woman (and man) of her generation had it ingrained into them at a very young age that, \"A successful woman is one who cooks, cleans, and takes care of her husband and children above herself.\" Do you not think that might affect self-image and personality as an adult? After all, her male peers were not being taught how to cook a tart and repair a stocking in school.", ">\n\nI agree with everything you wrote, especially how a personality and interest is also shaped by societal norms. Well said. I guess I was just looking for a nutjob to defend a 50-50 split for every occupation, just to understand their reasoning.", ">\n\nWouldn't it be because there is a larger supply of workers?\nLike if suddenly there was a huge uptick of female doctors available. Because in 2010 we finally allowed women into the medical field. That would ease some of the scarcity we have for doctors. And thus naturally lower their wages.", ">\n\n\nThe same thing happened when women in large numbers became designers (wages fell 34 percentage points), housekeepers (wages fell 21 percentage points) and biologists (wages fell 18 percentage points). The reverse was true when a job attracted more men. Computer programming, for instance, used to be a relatively menial role done by women. But when male programmers began to outnumber female ones, the job began paying more and gained prestige.\n\nThis would not explain how when more men enter a field, pay goes up. It's not a factor of supply and demand. Women's work is valued less.", ">\n\nMaybe male programmers did a better job who knows. \nComputer programming in general seems like a terrible example though. It's a market that has absolutely exploded in the last 30 years. Even if no male on planet earth would have entered that field. With how much computers do for us nowadays computer programmers would have had a major shift in importance and pay.", ">\n\nAs a society, social work is not valued as highly as work involving technical skills. This also happens to be work that women tend to gravitate towards due to either society pressure, general stereotypes, or gender tendency. However, while those may be jobs that tend to suit women's temperaments, they are by definition jobs dealing with aspects of society that either do not produce huge profits or deal with aspects of western society that are neglected. Caring for elderly parents, children, the sick and dying, or food service, or the homeless, or human services as a whole are services we desperately need at one time in our lives. Because our western values favor making money over more socialistic human concerns, we don't pay for those services as much." ]

[ "/u/Blutorangensaft (OP) has awarded 3 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nHow do you think people are trying to change the gap? Because almost all of the initiatives that I've heard of stem (bu dum tss) from encouraging women to pursue more lucrative careers", ">\n\nFirst, some policy proponents demand a market-wide change of the valuation of different types of work, which I don't find realistic. The reason tech pays well is because it scales well. Social doesn't scale.\nSecond, that's not the only argument I heard. I also heard the allegation that jobs are paid inversely proportional to the number of women in them, and that that needs to change. I can cite articles if you like, but that seems to be a pretty popular view.", ">\n\nI’m trying to understand what exactly what the assertion “the part of the gender pay gap that results from women and men being in different occupations should bot be closed” means, exactly.\nOn the surface it sounds a bit like “different jobs can and should pay differently” which unless you are the most rabid of socialists is pretty clearly true.\nWhat about the factors that cause men and women to make occupational choices?\nLike women tend to choose jobs that are traditionally dominated by women, and ones that are extra forgiving of long absences and/or can flip to part time / reduced hours - all of which is highly correlated to childbirth and nursing of infants.\nShould we as a society be taking any step to alleviate and share that burden?\nThe same question goes for different levels.\nThe job pay gap mostly goes away at same level - but what we tend to see is women being and seeking promotion less or transitioning out of the workforce in their late 20’s. Often for the same childcare related reason.\nShould we do anything here or not?", ">\n\nI'm not OP but I'm curious about this. \nIf I say society should not be taking steps to alleviate the decisions that women make in their life, you call them a 'burden' in some spots but you call them choices in other spots.\nIf I did say that, was your point going to be we should be?", ">\n\nMy phrasing - effectively “the choice to bear a burden” - was implicitly acknowledging it could be argued either way, and I was attempting to ask the question in a neutral way.\nI don’t have a well formed opinion here just yet. I tend to think that the ease of doing business - particularly making start-ups - is an enormous competitive advantage of the United States over Europe. I also see that the attrition rate of women on maternity leave is really high even in the most comfortable & well paid jobs. \nSo I tend to think that you start to get diminishing returns in efforts to try to de-program the way people tend to orient their family lives along gender roles.", ">\n\nI wonder if it's actually attrition for women in general or if it's just women going the way they really want to anyway.\nI know I've spoken to many women, and my wife, and my sister in law. \nI suspect it's fairly common that women who even had very professional jobs, find after they have had kids and go on maternity leave, they simply find \"Oh... this is actually much more important to me\".\nI wonder if they'd actually consider it attrition. \nWould you want to deprogram that type of thought process? I wouldn't think so really, on a personal level. perhaps an argument can be made on a generalized 'societal' level though.", ">\n\nI meant attrition in the way HR department use it - just a synonym for “left the job”, not as a suggestion of them being worn down by stress or other.\nI do think it’s common for women in their early 30’s, once established, to prefer family - and that’s fine.", ">\n\nyeah, we probably don't disagree on much of anything then, I don't really see any problems occuring from any of this that needs solved, and you seem to agree that the choices women make are fine as well.", ">\n\nThe question is, why is there a gap in occupational choice?\nFor centuries, until about the 1970s, the only careers broadly available to women were nurse, teacher, secretary, and social worker. Women were systematically barred from most prestigious, high-paying fields (business, banking, STEM, etc).\nNow, only a single generation after we’ve achieved “equality,” we still see a very high ratio of women in the occupational fields that they were traditionally forced into for centuries (nursing, teaching) while we see a low ratio of women in fields that were traditionally excluded from for centuries (finance, engineering, etc).\nNow, what is more likely? That it turns out that women never wanted to be engineers or bankers after all, and they just aren’t very good at it? \nOr is it that 40-50 years isn’t enough to entirely cleanse a culture of its ingrained ideas and prejudices around gender, and that there are still some residual effects from banning women from certain fields for hundreds of years, even if the explicit bans no longer exist?\nI’ll leave you with a personal anecdote—my mother is a very successful businesswoman in her 60s (the age of many successful CEOs and industry leaders). Yet when she was in middle and high school, all the girls in her class still had to take “Home Ec,” where they would learn to cook, clean, and sew.\nDo you not think being “trained” to be a housewife at the age of 13-15 might not seriously effect the later career choices of adult women?", ">\n\nI agree with you on all that. What I'm having trouble with is people who believe that, eventually, everything will even out and we will have 50/50 in every job, especially the ones that pay well. I believe that's just wishful thinking, because, despite all the barriers that women have faced in the past, once they are overthrown, what will remain are biological differences and temperamental differences. Personality tests have long shown gender differences, and they translate to interests in different occupations as well. That also manifests in the people-vs-things dichotomy, where men are more interested in things, and women more interested in people. So, I don't know how the future will look like. But it won't be 50/50. So we have to think about why certain jobs are paid more and others are paid less, and what being a woman has to do with that.", ">\n\nI don't think anyone -- except maybe the most extreme radicals -- believe that 'closing the gender gap' means that every field needs to be exactly 50/50.\nWhen most people refer to 'closing the gender gap,' I think they're referring to things like STEM programs for young girls, breaking up the 'good ol' boy' networking system, making many careers more flexible for women caring for young children, etc.\nIn terms of personality tests, etc, I do agree there are certain biological differences that affect personality. But it's also a 'nature v. nurture' thing.\nGoing back to the example of my mother having to take Home Economics, almost every woman (and man) of her generation had it ingrained into them at a very young age that, \"A successful woman is one who cooks, cleans, and takes care of her husband and children above herself.\" Do you not think that might affect self-image and personality as an adult? After all, her male peers were not being taught how to cook a tart and repair a stocking in school.", ">\n\nI agree with everything you wrote, especially how a personality and interest is also shaped by societal norms. Well said. I guess I was just looking for a nutjob to defend a 50-50 split for every occupation, just to understand their reasoning.", ">\n\nWouldn't it be because there is a larger supply of workers?\nLike if suddenly there was a huge uptick of female doctors available. Because in 2010 we finally allowed women into the medical field. That would ease some of the scarcity we have for doctors. And thus naturally lower their wages.", ">\n\n\nThe same thing happened when women in large numbers became designers (wages fell 34 percentage points), housekeepers (wages fell 21 percentage points) and biologists (wages fell 18 percentage points). The reverse was true when a job attracted more men. Computer programming, for instance, used to be a relatively menial role done by women. But when male programmers began to outnumber female ones, the job began paying more and gained prestige.\n\nThis would not explain how when more men enter a field, pay goes up. It's not a factor of supply and demand. Women's work is valued less.", ">\n\nMaybe male programmers did a better job who knows. \nComputer programming in general seems like a terrible example though. It's a market that has absolutely exploded in the last 30 years. Even if no male on planet earth would have entered that field. With how much computers do for us nowadays computer programmers would have had a major shift in importance and pay.", ">\n\nAs a society, social work is not valued as highly as work involving technical skills. This also happens to be work that women tend to gravitate towards due to either society pressure, general stereotypes, or gender tendency. However, while those may be jobs that tend to suit women's temperaments, they are by definition jobs dealing with aspects of society that either do not produce huge profits or deal with aspects of western society that are neglected. Caring for elderly parents, children, the sick and dying, or food service, or the homeless, or human services as a whole are services we desperately need at one time in our lives. Because our western values favor making money over more socialistic human concerns, we don't pay for those services as much.", ">\n\nI recognise that this train of thought is important, but it's not what I'm looking for here. Given capitalism as a system, is there evidence for bias against women in how they are paid based on the occupational choices they make?" ]

[ "/u/Blutorangensaft (OP) has awarded 3 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nHow do you think people are trying to change the gap? Because almost all of the initiatives that I've heard of stem (bu dum tss) from encouraging women to pursue more lucrative careers", ">\n\nFirst, some policy proponents demand a market-wide change of the valuation of different types of work, which I don't find realistic. The reason tech pays well is because it scales well. Social doesn't scale.\nSecond, that's not the only argument I heard. I also heard the allegation that jobs are paid inversely proportional to the number of women in them, and that that needs to change. I can cite articles if you like, but that seems to be a pretty popular view.", ">\n\nI’m trying to understand what exactly what the assertion “the part of the gender pay gap that results from women and men being in different occupations should bot be closed” means, exactly.\nOn the surface it sounds a bit like “different jobs can and should pay differently” which unless you are the most rabid of socialists is pretty clearly true.\nWhat about the factors that cause men and women to make occupational choices?\nLike women tend to choose jobs that are traditionally dominated by women, and ones that are extra forgiving of long absences and/or can flip to part time / reduced hours - all of which is highly correlated to childbirth and nursing of infants.\nShould we as a society be taking any step to alleviate and share that burden?\nThe same question goes for different levels.\nThe job pay gap mostly goes away at same level - but what we tend to see is women being and seeking promotion less or transitioning out of the workforce in their late 20’s. Often for the same childcare related reason.\nShould we do anything here or not?", ">\n\nI'm not OP but I'm curious about this. \nIf I say society should not be taking steps to alleviate the decisions that women make in their life, you call them a 'burden' in some spots but you call them choices in other spots.\nIf I did say that, was your point going to be we should be?", ">\n\nMy phrasing - effectively “the choice to bear a burden” - was implicitly acknowledging it could be argued either way, and I was attempting to ask the question in a neutral way.\nI don’t have a well formed opinion here just yet. I tend to think that the ease of doing business - particularly making start-ups - is an enormous competitive advantage of the United States over Europe. I also see that the attrition rate of women on maternity leave is really high even in the most comfortable & well paid jobs. \nSo I tend to think that you start to get diminishing returns in efforts to try to de-program the way people tend to orient their family lives along gender roles.", ">\n\nI wonder if it's actually attrition for women in general or if it's just women going the way they really want to anyway.\nI know I've spoken to many women, and my wife, and my sister in law. \nI suspect it's fairly common that women who even had very professional jobs, find after they have had kids and go on maternity leave, they simply find \"Oh... this is actually much more important to me\".\nI wonder if they'd actually consider it attrition. \nWould you want to deprogram that type of thought process? I wouldn't think so really, on a personal level. perhaps an argument can be made on a generalized 'societal' level though.", ">\n\nI meant attrition in the way HR department use it - just a synonym for “left the job”, not as a suggestion of them being worn down by stress or other.\nI do think it’s common for women in their early 30’s, once established, to prefer family - and that’s fine.", ">\n\nyeah, we probably don't disagree on much of anything then, I don't really see any problems occuring from any of this that needs solved, and you seem to agree that the choices women make are fine as well.", ">\n\nThe question is, why is there a gap in occupational choice?\nFor centuries, until about the 1970s, the only careers broadly available to women were nurse, teacher, secretary, and social worker. Women were systematically barred from most prestigious, high-paying fields (business, banking, STEM, etc).\nNow, only a single generation after we’ve achieved “equality,” we still see a very high ratio of women in the occupational fields that they were traditionally forced into for centuries (nursing, teaching) while we see a low ratio of women in fields that were traditionally excluded from for centuries (finance, engineering, etc).\nNow, what is more likely? That it turns out that women never wanted to be engineers or bankers after all, and they just aren’t very good at it? \nOr is it that 40-50 years isn’t enough to entirely cleanse a culture of its ingrained ideas and prejudices around gender, and that there are still some residual effects from banning women from certain fields for hundreds of years, even if the explicit bans no longer exist?\nI’ll leave you with a personal anecdote—my mother is a very successful businesswoman in her 60s (the age of many successful CEOs and industry leaders). Yet when she was in middle and high school, all the girls in her class still had to take “Home Ec,” where they would learn to cook, clean, and sew.\nDo you not think being “trained” to be a housewife at the age of 13-15 might not seriously effect the later career choices of adult women?", ">\n\nI agree with you on all that. What I'm having trouble with is people who believe that, eventually, everything will even out and we will have 50/50 in every job, especially the ones that pay well. I believe that's just wishful thinking, because, despite all the barriers that women have faced in the past, once they are overthrown, what will remain are biological differences and temperamental differences. Personality tests have long shown gender differences, and they translate to interests in different occupations as well. That also manifests in the people-vs-things dichotomy, where men are more interested in things, and women more interested in people. So, I don't know how the future will look like. But it won't be 50/50. So we have to think about why certain jobs are paid more and others are paid less, and what being a woman has to do with that.", ">\n\nI don't think anyone -- except maybe the most extreme radicals -- believe that 'closing the gender gap' means that every field needs to be exactly 50/50.\nWhen most people refer to 'closing the gender gap,' I think they're referring to things like STEM programs for young girls, breaking up the 'good ol' boy' networking system, making many careers more flexible for women caring for young children, etc.\nIn terms of personality tests, etc, I do agree there are certain biological differences that affect personality. But it's also a 'nature v. nurture' thing.\nGoing back to the example of my mother having to take Home Economics, almost every woman (and man) of her generation had it ingrained into them at a very young age that, \"A successful woman is one who cooks, cleans, and takes care of her husband and children above herself.\" Do you not think that might affect self-image and personality as an adult? After all, her male peers were not being taught how to cook a tart and repair a stocking in school.", ">\n\nI agree with everything you wrote, especially how a personality and interest is also shaped by societal norms. Well said. I guess I was just looking for a nutjob to defend a 50-50 split for every occupation, just to understand their reasoning.", ">\n\nWouldn't it be because there is a larger supply of workers?\nLike if suddenly there was a huge uptick of female doctors available. Because in 2010 we finally allowed women into the medical field. That would ease some of the scarcity we have for doctors. And thus naturally lower their wages.", ">\n\n\nThe same thing happened when women in large numbers became designers (wages fell 34 percentage points), housekeepers (wages fell 21 percentage points) and biologists (wages fell 18 percentage points). The reverse was true when a job attracted more men. Computer programming, for instance, used to be a relatively menial role done by women. But when male programmers began to outnumber female ones, the job began paying more and gained prestige.\n\nThis would not explain how when more men enter a field, pay goes up. It's not a factor of supply and demand. Women's work is valued less.", ">\n\nMaybe male programmers did a better job who knows. \nComputer programming in general seems like a terrible example though. It's a market that has absolutely exploded in the last 30 years. Even if no male on planet earth would have entered that field. With how much computers do for us nowadays computer programmers would have had a major shift in importance and pay.", ">\n\nAs a society, social work is not valued as highly as work involving technical skills. This also happens to be work that women tend to gravitate towards due to either society pressure, general stereotypes, or gender tendency. However, while those may be jobs that tend to suit women's temperaments, they are by definition jobs dealing with aspects of society that either do not produce huge profits or deal with aspects of western society that are neglected. Caring for elderly parents, children, the sick and dying, or food service, or the homeless, or human services as a whole are services we desperately need at one time in our lives. Because our western values favor making money over more socialistic human concerns, we don't pay for those services as much.", ">\n\nI recognise that this train of thought is important, but it's not what I'm looking for here. Given capitalism as a system, is there evidence for bias against women in how they are paid based on the occupational choices they make?", ">\n\nUh.. not so fast, if you please. My point is that your inquiry could also be turned around. Because women (not 100%) are drawn more to occupations dealing directly with human services, and that our western society does not value human services as much as other occupations, we do not pay as much. The bias is not a only against women per se, but also against occupations that women tend to choose more than men." ]

[ "/u/Blutorangensaft (OP) has awarded 3 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nHow do you think people are trying to change the gap? Because almost all of the initiatives that I've heard of stem (bu dum tss) from encouraging women to pursue more lucrative careers", ">\n\nFirst, some policy proponents demand a market-wide change of the valuation of different types of work, which I don't find realistic. The reason tech pays well is because it scales well. Social doesn't scale.\nSecond, that's not the only argument I heard. I also heard the allegation that jobs are paid inversely proportional to the number of women in them, and that that needs to change. I can cite articles if you like, but that seems to be a pretty popular view.", ">\n\nI’m trying to understand what exactly what the assertion “the part of the gender pay gap that results from women and men being in different occupations should bot be closed” means, exactly.\nOn the surface it sounds a bit like “different jobs can and should pay differently” which unless you are the most rabid of socialists is pretty clearly true.\nWhat about the factors that cause men and women to make occupational choices?\nLike women tend to choose jobs that are traditionally dominated by women, and ones that are extra forgiving of long absences and/or can flip to part time / reduced hours - all of which is highly correlated to childbirth and nursing of infants.\nShould we as a society be taking any step to alleviate and share that burden?\nThe same question goes for different levels.\nThe job pay gap mostly goes away at same level - but what we tend to see is women being and seeking promotion less or transitioning out of the workforce in their late 20’s. Often for the same childcare related reason.\nShould we do anything here or not?", ">\n\nI'm not OP but I'm curious about this. \nIf I say society should not be taking steps to alleviate the decisions that women make in their life, you call them a 'burden' in some spots but you call them choices in other spots.\nIf I did say that, was your point going to be we should be?", ">\n\nMy phrasing - effectively “the choice to bear a burden” - was implicitly acknowledging it could be argued either way, and I was attempting to ask the question in a neutral way.\nI don’t have a well formed opinion here just yet. I tend to think that the ease of doing business - particularly making start-ups - is an enormous competitive advantage of the United States over Europe. I also see that the attrition rate of women on maternity leave is really high even in the most comfortable & well paid jobs. \nSo I tend to think that you start to get diminishing returns in efforts to try to de-program the way people tend to orient their family lives along gender roles.", ">\n\nI wonder if it's actually attrition for women in general or if it's just women going the way they really want to anyway.\nI know I've spoken to many women, and my wife, and my sister in law. \nI suspect it's fairly common that women who even had very professional jobs, find after they have had kids and go on maternity leave, they simply find \"Oh... this is actually much more important to me\".\nI wonder if they'd actually consider it attrition. \nWould you want to deprogram that type of thought process? I wouldn't think so really, on a personal level. perhaps an argument can be made on a generalized 'societal' level though.", ">\n\nI meant attrition in the way HR department use it - just a synonym for “left the job”, not as a suggestion of them being worn down by stress or other.\nI do think it’s common for women in their early 30’s, once established, to prefer family - and that’s fine.", ">\n\nyeah, we probably don't disagree on much of anything then, I don't really see any problems occuring from any of this that needs solved, and you seem to agree that the choices women make are fine as well.", ">\n\nThe question is, why is there a gap in occupational choice?\nFor centuries, until about the 1970s, the only careers broadly available to women were nurse, teacher, secretary, and social worker. Women were systematically barred from most prestigious, high-paying fields (business, banking, STEM, etc).\nNow, only a single generation after we’ve achieved “equality,” we still see a very high ratio of women in the occupational fields that they were traditionally forced into for centuries (nursing, teaching) while we see a low ratio of women in fields that were traditionally excluded from for centuries (finance, engineering, etc).\nNow, what is more likely? That it turns out that women never wanted to be engineers or bankers after all, and they just aren’t very good at it? \nOr is it that 40-50 years isn’t enough to entirely cleanse a culture of its ingrained ideas and prejudices around gender, and that there are still some residual effects from banning women from certain fields for hundreds of years, even if the explicit bans no longer exist?\nI’ll leave you with a personal anecdote—my mother is a very successful businesswoman in her 60s (the age of many successful CEOs and industry leaders). Yet when she was in middle and high school, all the girls in her class still had to take “Home Ec,” where they would learn to cook, clean, and sew.\nDo you not think being “trained” to be a housewife at the age of 13-15 might not seriously effect the later career choices of adult women?", ">\n\nI agree with you on all that. What I'm having trouble with is people who believe that, eventually, everything will even out and we will have 50/50 in every job, especially the ones that pay well. I believe that's just wishful thinking, because, despite all the barriers that women have faced in the past, once they are overthrown, what will remain are biological differences and temperamental differences. Personality tests have long shown gender differences, and they translate to interests in different occupations as well. That also manifests in the people-vs-things dichotomy, where men are more interested in things, and women more interested in people. So, I don't know how the future will look like. But it won't be 50/50. So we have to think about why certain jobs are paid more and others are paid less, and what being a woman has to do with that.", ">\n\nI don't think anyone -- except maybe the most extreme radicals -- believe that 'closing the gender gap' means that every field needs to be exactly 50/50.\nWhen most people refer to 'closing the gender gap,' I think they're referring to things like STEM programs for young girls, breaking up the 'good ol' boy' networking system, making many careers more flexible for women caring for young children, etc.\nIn terms of personality tests, etc, I do agree there are certain biological differences that affect personality. But it's also a 'nature v. nurture' thing.\nGoing back to the example of my mother having to take Home Economics, almost every woman (and man) of her generation had it ingrained into them at a very young age that, \"A successful woman is one who cooks, cleans, and takes care of her husband and children above herself.\" Do you not think that might affect self-image and personality as an adult? After all, her male peers were not being taught how to cook a tart and repair a stocking in school.", ">\n\nI agree with everything you wrote, especially how a personality and interest is also shaped by societal norms. Well said. I guess I was just looking for a nutjob to defend a 50-50 split for every occupation, just to understand their reasoning.", ">\n\nWouldn't it be because there is a larger supply of workers?\nLike if suddenly there was a huge uptick of female doctors available. Because in 2010 we finally allowed women into the medical field. That would ease some of the scarcity we have for doctors. And thus naturally lower their wages.", ">\n\n\nThe same thing happened when women in large numbers became designers (wages fell 34 percentage points), housekeepers (wages fell 21 percentage points) and biologists (wages fell 18 percentage points). The reverse was true when a job attracted more men. Computer programming, for instance, used to be a relatively menial role done by women. But when male programmers began to outnumber female ones, the job began paying more and gained prestige.\n\nThis would not explain how when more men enter a field, pay goes up. It's not a factor of supply and demand. Women's work is valued less.", ">\n\nMaybe male programmers did a better job who knows. \nComputer programming in general seems like a terrible example though. It's a market that has absolutely exploded in the last 30 years. Even if no male on planet earth would have entered that field. With how much computers do for us nowadays computer programmers would have had a major shift in importance and pay.", ">\n\nAs a society, social work is not valued as highly as work involving technical skills. This also happens to be work that women tend to gravitate towards due to either society pressure, general stereotypes, or gender tendency. However, while those may be jobs that tend to suit women's temperaments, they are by definition jobs dealing with aspects of society that either do not produce huge profits or deal with aspects of western society that are neglected. Caring for elderly parents, children, the sick and dying, or food service, or the homeless, or human services as a whole are services we desperately need at one time in our lives. Because our western values favor making money over more socialistic human concerns, we don't pay for those services as much.", ">\n\nI recognise that this train of thought is important, but it's not what I'm looking for here. Given capitalism as a system, is there evidence for bias against women in how they are paid based on the occupational choices they make?", ">\n\nUh.. not so fast, if you please. My point is that your inquiry could also be turned around. Because women (not 100%) are drawn more to occupations dealing directly with human services, and that our western society does not value human services as much as other occupations, we do not pay as much. The bias is not a only against women per se, but also against occupations that women tend to choose more than men.", ">\n\nOk, so how do you show that this bias exists?\nBecause, so far, it's a correlation equals causation argument." ]

[ "/u/Blutorangensaft (OP) has awarded 3 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nHow do you think people are trying to change the gap? Because almost all of the initiatives that I've heard of stem (bu dum tss) from encouraging women to pursue more lucrative careers", ">\n\nFirst, some policy proponents demand a market-wide change of the valuation of different types of work, which I don't find realistic. The reason tech pays well is because it scales well. Social doesn't scale.\nSecond, that's not the only argument I heard. I also heard the allegation that jobs are paid inversely proportional to the number of women in them, and that that needs to change. I can cite articles if you like, but that seems to be a pretty popular view.", ">\n\nI’m trying to understand what exactly what the assertion “the part of the gender pay gap that results from women and men being in different occupations should bot be closed” means, exactly.\nOn the surface it sounds a bit like “different jobs can and should pay differently” which unless you are the most rabid of socialists is pretty clearly true.\nWhat about the factors that cause men and women to make occupational choices?\nLike women tend to choose jobs that are traditionally dominated by women, and ones that are extra forgiving of long absences and/or can flip to part time / reduced hours - all of which is highly correlated to childbirth and nursing of infants.\nShould we as a society be taking any step to alleviate and share that burden?\nThe same question goes for different levels.\nThe job pay gap mostly goes away at same level - but what we tend to see is women being and seeking promotion less or transitioning out of the workforce in their late 20’s. Often for the same childcare related reason.\nShould we do anything here or not?", ">\n\nI'm not OP but I'm curious about this. \nIf I say society should not be taking steps to alleviate the decisions that women make in their life, you call them a 'burden' in some spots but you call them choices in other spots.\nIf I did say that, was your point going to be we should be?", ">\n\nMy phrasing - effectively “the choice to bear a burden” - was implicitly acknowledging it could be argued either way, and I was attempting to ask the question in a neutral way.\nI don’t have a well formed opinion here just yet. I tend to think that the ease of doing business - particularly making start-ups - is an enormous competitive advantage of the United States over Europe. I also see that the attrition rate of women on maternity leave is really high even in the most comfortable & well paid jobs. \nSo I tend to think that you start to get diminishing returns in efforts to try to de-program the way people tend to orient their family lives along gender roles.", ">\n\nI wonder if it's actually attrition for women in general or if it's just women going the way they really want to anyway.\nI know I've spoken to many women, and my wife, and my sister in law. \nI suspect it's fairly common that women who even had very professional jobs, find after they have had kids and go on maternity leave, they simply find \"Oh... this is actually much more important to me\".\nI wonder if they'd actually consider it attrition. \nWould you want to deprogram that type of thought process? I wouldn't think so really, on a personal level. perhaps an argument can be made on a generalized 'societal' level though.", ">\n\nI meant attrition in the way HR department use it - just a synonym for “left the job”, not as a suggestion of them being worn down by stress or other.\nI do think it’s common for women in their early 30’s, once established, to prefer family - and that’s fine.", ">\n\nyeah, we probably don't disagree on much of anything then, I don't really see any problems occuring from any of this that needs solved, and you seem to agree that the choices women make are fine as well.", ">\n\nThe question is, why is there a gap in occupational choice?\nFor centuries, until about the 1970s, the only careers broadly available to women were nurse, teacher, secretary, and social worker. Women were systematically barred from most prestigious, high-paying fields (business, banking, STEM, etc).\nNow, only a single generation after we’ve achieved “equality,” we still see a very high ratio of women in the occupational fields that they were traditionally forced into for centuries (nursing, teaching) while we see a low ratio of women in fields that were traditionally excluded from for centuries (finance, engineering, etc).\nNow, what is more likely? That it turns out that women never wanted to be engineers or bankers after all, and they just aren’t very good at it? \nOr is it that 40-50 years isn’t enough to entirely cleanse a culture of its ingrained ideas and prejudices around gender, and that there are still some residual effects from banning women from certain fields for hundreds of years, even if the explicit bans no longer exist?\nI’ll leave you with a personal anecdote—my mother is a very successful businesswoman in her 60s (the age of many successful CEOs and industry leaders). Yet when she was in middle and high school, all the girls in her class still had to take “Home Ec,” where they would learn to cook, clean, and sew.\nDo you not think being “trained” to be a housewife at the age of 13-15 might not seriously effect the later career choices of adult women?", ">\n\nI agree with you on all that. What I'm having trouble with is people who believe that, eventually, everything will even out and we will have 50/50 in every job, especially the ones that pay well. I believe that's just wishful thinking, because, despite all the barriers that women have faced in the past, once they are overthrown, what will remain are biological differences and temperamental differences. Personality tests have long shown gender differences, and they translate to interests in different occupations as well. That also manifests in the people-vs-things dichotomy, where men are more interested in things, and women more interested in people. So, I don't know how the future will look like. But it won't be 50/50. So we have to think about why certain jobs are paid more and others are paid less, and what being a woman has to do with that.", ">\n\nI don't think anyone -- except maybe the most extreme radicals -- believe that 'closing the gender gap' means that every field needs to be exactly 50/50.\nWhen most people refer to 'closing the gender gap,' I think they're referring to things like STEM programs for young girls, breaking up the 'good ol' boy' networking system, making many careers more flexible for women caring for young children, etc.\nIn terms of personality tests, etc, I do agree there are certain biological differences that affect personality. But it's also a 'nature v. nurture' thing.\nGoing back to the example of my mother having to take Home Economics, almost every woman (and man) of her generation had it ingrained into them at a very young age that, \"A successful woman is one who cooks, cleans, and takes care of her husband and children above herself.\" Do you not think that might affect self-image and personality as an adult? After all, her male peers were not being taught how to cook a tart and repair a stocking in school.", ">\n\nI agree with everything you wrote, especially how a personality and interest is also shaped by societal norms. Well said. I guess I was just looking for a nutjob to defend a 50-50 split for every occupation, just to understand their reasoning.", ">\n\nWouldn't it be because there is a larger supply of workers?\nLike if suddenly there was a huge uptick of female doctors available. Because in 2010 we finally allowed women into the medical field. That would ease some of the scarcity we have for doctors. And thus naturally lower their wages.", ">\n\n\nThe same thing happened when women in large numbers became designers (wages fell 34 percentage points), housekeepers (wages fell 21 percentage points) and biologists (wages fell 18 percentage points). The reverse was true when a job attracted more men. Computer programming, for instance, used to be a relatively menial role done by women. But when male programmers began to outnumber female ones, the job began paying more and gained prestige.\n\nThis would not explain how when more men enter a field, pay goes up. It's not a factor of supply and demand. Women's work is valued less.", ">\n\nMaybe male programmers did a better job who knows. \nComputer programming in general seems like a terrible example though. It's a market that has absolutely exploded in the last 30 years. Even if no male on planet earth would have entered that field. With how much computers do for us nowadays computer programmers would have had a major shift in importance and pay.", ">\n\nAs a society, social work is not valued as highly as work involving technical skills. This also happens to be work that women tend to gravitate towards due to either society pressure, general stereotypes, or gender tendency. However, while those may be jobs that tend to suit women's temperaments, they are by definition jobs dealing with aspects of society that either do not produce huge profits or deal with aspects of western society that are neglected. Caring for elderly parents, children, the sick and dying, or food service, or the homeless, or human services as a whole are services we desperately need at one time in our lives. Because our western values favor making money over more socialistic human concerns, we don't pay for those services as much.", ">\n\nI recognise that this train of thought is important, but it's not what I'm looking for here. Given capitalism as a system, is there evidence for bias against women in how they are paid based on the occupational choices they make?", ">\n\nUh.. not so fast, if you please. My point is that your inquiry could also be turned around. Because women (not 100%) are drawn more to occupations dealing directly with human services, and that our western society does not value human services as much as other occupations, we do not pay as much. The bias is not a only against women per se, but also against occupations that women tend to choose more than men.", ">\n\nOk, so how do you show that this bias exists?\nBecause, so far, it's a correlation equals causation argument.", ">\n\nSheesh! It's just a CMV, not a darn dissertation! I shouldn't have to provide research papers on the facts that 1. Social service/human needs jobs generally pay far less than electrical engineers, and 2. There are more male engineers than female engineers." ]

[ "/u/Blutorangensaft (OP) has awarded 3 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards", ">\n\nHow do you think people are trying to change the gap? Because almost all of the initiatives that I've heard of stem (bu dum tss) from encouraging women to pursue more lucrative careers", ">\n\nFirst, some policy proponents demand a market-wide change of the valuation of different types of work, which I don't find realistic. The reason tech pays well is because it scales well. Social doesn't scale.\nSecond, that's not the only argument I heard. I also heard the allegation that jobs are paid inversely proportional to the number of women in them, and that that needs to change. I can cite articles if you like, but that seems to be a pretty popular view.", ">\n\nI’m trying to understand what exactly what the assertion “the part of the gender pay gap that results from women and men being in different occupations should bot be closed” means, exactly.\nOn the surface it sounds a bit like “different jobs can and should pay differently” which unless you are the most rabid of socialists is pretty clearly true.\nWhat about the factors that cause men and women to make occupational choices?\nLike women tend to choose jobs that are traditionally dominated by women, and ones that are extra forgiving of long absences and/or can flip to part time / reduced hours - all of which is highly correlated to childbirth and nursing of infants.\nShould we as a society be taking any step to alleviate and share that burden?\nThe same question goes for different levels.\nThe job pay gap mostly goes away at same level - but what we tend to see is women being and seeking promotion less or transitioning out of the workforce in their late 20’s. Often for the same childcare related reason.\nShould we do anything here or not?", ">\n\nI'm not OP but I'm curious about this. \nIf I say society should not be taking steps to alleviate the decisions that women make in their life, you call them a 'burden' in some spots but you call them choices in other spots.\nIf I did say that, was your point going to be we should be?", ">\n\nMy phrasing - effectively “the choice to bear a burden” - was implicitly acknowledging it could be argued either way, and I was attempting to ask the question in a neutral way.\nI don’t have a well formed opinion here just yet. I tend to think that the ease of doing business - particularly making start-ups - is an enormous competitive advantage of the United States over Europe. I also see that the attrition rate of women on maternity leave is really high even in the most comfortable & well paid jobs. \nSo I tend to think that you start to get diminishing returns in efforts to try to de-program the way people tend to orient their family lives along gender roles.", ">\n\nI wonder if it's actually attrition for women in general or if it's just women going the way they really want to anyway.\nI know I've spoken to many women, and my wife, and my sister in law. \nI suspect it's fairly common that women who even had very professional jobs, find after they have had kids and go on maternity leave, they simply find \"Oh... this is actually much more important to me\".\nI wonder if they'd actually consider it attrition. \nWould you want to deprogram that type of thought process? I wouldn't think so really, on a personal level. perhaps an argument can be made on a generalized 'societal' level though.", ">\n\nI meant attrition in the way HR department use it - just a synonym for “left the job”, not as a suggestion of them being worn down by stress or other.\nI do think it’s common for women in their early 30’s, once established, to prefer family - and that’s fine.", ">\n\nyeah, we probably don't disagree on much of anything then, I don't really see any problems occuring from any of this that needs solved, and you seem to agree that the choices women make are fine as well.", ">\n\nThe question is, why is there a gap in occupational choice?\nFor centuries, until about the 1970s, the only careers broadly available to women were nurse, teacher, secretary, and social worker. Women were systematically barred from most prestigious, high-paying fields (business, banking, STEM, etc).\nNow, only a single generation after we’ve achieved “equality,” we still see a very high ratio of women in the occupational fields that they were traditionally forced into for centuries (nursing, teaching) while we see a low ratio of women in fields that were traditionally excluded from for centuries (finance, engineering, etc).\nNow, what is more likely? That it turns out that women never wanted to be engineers or bankers after all, and they just aren’t very good at it? \nOr is it that 40-50 years isn’t enough to entirely cleanse a culture of its ingrained ideas and prejudices around gender, and that there are still some residual effects from banning women from certain fields for hundreds of years, even if the explicit bans no longer exist?\nI’ll leave you with a personal anecdote—my mother is a very successful businesswoman in her 60s (the age of many successful CEOs and industry leaders). Yet when she was in middle and high school, all the girls in her class still had to take “Home Ec,” where they would learn to cook, clean, and sew.\nDo you not think being “trained” to be a housewife at the age of 13-15 might not seriously effect the later career choices of adult women?", ">\n\nI agree with you on all that. What I'm having trouble with is people who believe that, eventually, everything will even out and we will have 50/50 in every job, especially the ones that pay well. I believe that's just wishful thinking, because, despite all the barriers that women have faced in the past, once they are overthrown, what will remain are biological differences and temperamental differences. Personality tests have long shown gender differences, and they translate to interests in different occupations as well. That also manifests in the people-vs-things dichotomy, where men are more interested in things, and women more interested in people. So, I don't know how the future will look like. But it won't be 50/50. So we have to think about why certain jobs are paid more and others are paid less, and what being a woman has to do with that.", ">\n\nI don't think anyone -- except maybe the most extreme radicals -- believe that 'closing the gender gap' means that every field needs to be exactly 50/50.\nWhen most people refer to 'closing the gender gap,' I think they're referring to things like STEM programs for young girls, breaking up the 'good ol' boy' networking system, making many careers more flexible for women caring for young children, etc.\nIn terms of personality tests, etc, I do agree there are certain biological differences that affect personality. But it's also a 'nature v. nurture' thing.\nGoing back to the example of my mother having to take Home Economics, almost every woman (and man) of her generation had it ingrained into them at a very young age that, \"A successful woman is one who cooks, cleans, and takes care of her husband and children above herself.\" Do you not think that might affect self-image and personality as an adult? After all, her male peers were not being taught how to cook a tart and repair a stocking in school.", ">\n\nI agree with everything you wrote, especially how a personality and interest is also shaped by societal norms. Well said. I guess I was just looking for a nutjob to defend a 50-50 split for every occupation, just to understand their reasoning.", ">\n\nWouldn't it be because there is a larger supply of workers?\nLike if suddenly there was a huge uptick of female doctors available. Because in 2010 we finally allowed women into the medical field. That would ease some of the scarcity we have for doctors. And thus naturally lower their wages.", ">\n\n\nThe same thing happened when women in large numbers became designers (wages fell 34 percentage points), housekeepers (wages fell 21 percentage points) and biologists (wages fell 18 percentage points). The reverse was true when a job attracted more men. Computer programming, for instance, used to be a relatively menial role done by women. But when male programmers began to outnumber female ones, the job began paying more and gained prestige.\n\nThis would not explain how when more men enter a field, pay goes up. It's not a factor of supply and demand. Women's work is valued less.", ">\n\nMaybe male programmers did a better job who knows. \nComputer programming in general seems like a terrible example though. It's a market that has absolutely exploded in the last 30 years. Even if no male on planet earth would have entered that field. With how much computers do for us nowadays computer programmers would have had a major shift in importance and pay.", ">\n\nAs a society, social work is not valued as highly as work involving technical skills. This also happens to be work that women tend to gravitate towards due to either society pressure, general stereotypes, or gender tendency. However, while those may be jobs that tend to suit women's temperaments, they are by definition jobs dealing with aspects of society that either do not produce huge profits or deal with aspects of western society that are neglected. Caring for elderly parents, children, the sick and dying, or food service, or the homeless, or human services as a whole are services we desperately need at one time in our lives. Because our western values favor making money over more socialistic human concerns, we don't pay for those services as much.", ">\n\nI recognise that this train of thought is important, but it's not what I'm looking for here. Given capitalism as a system, is there evidence for bias against women in how they are paid based on the occupational choices they make?", ">\n\nUh.. not so fast, if you please. My point is that your inquiry could also be turned around. Because women (not 100%) are drawn more to occupations dealing directly with human services, and that our western society does not value human services as much as other occupations, we do not pay as much. The bias is not a only against women per se, but also against occupations that women tend to choose more than men.", ">\n\nOk, so how do you show that this bias exists?\nBecause, so far, it's a correlation equals causation argument.", ">\n\nSheesh! It's just a CMV, not a darn dissertation! I shouldn't have to provide research papers on the facts that 1. Social service/human needs jobs generally pay far less than electrical engineers, and 2. There are more male engineers than female engineers.", ">\n\nCan you explain the reasoning behind your view? As written, your post just said what your view is and then repeats it a couple of times. But it doesn't explain why you think it is true." ]

[]

[ "Hopefully the dem control in Mi means they will implement it here" ]

[ "Hopefully the dem control in Mi means they will implement it here", ">\n\nI'm in favor!" ]

[ "Hopefully the dem control in Mi means they will implement it here", ">\n\nI'm in favor!", ">\n\nIf in favor does not win, what is your second choice?" ]

[ "Hopefully the dem control in Mi means they will implement it here", ">\n\nI'm in favor!", ">\n\nIf in favor does not win, what is your second choice?", ">\n\nWe already have open primaries (no need to register with a party) so either keep it that way or move to top 2/top 3 primary win system similar to California" ]

[ "Hopefully the dem control in Mi means they will implement it here", ">\n\nI'm in favor!", ">\n\nIf in favor does not win, what is your second choice?", ">\n\nWe already have open primaries (no need to register with a party) so either keep it that way or move to top 2/top 3 primary win system similar to California", ">\n\nI think they were making a ranked choice vote joke lol “If not, what’s your second favorite?”" ]

[ "Hopefully the dem control in Mi means they will implement it here", ">\n\nI'm in favor!", ">\n\nIf in favor does not win, what is your second choice?", ">\n\nWe already have open primaries (no need to register with a party) so either keep it that way or move to top 2/top 3 primary win system similar to California", ">\n\nI think they were making a ranked choice vote joke lol “If not, what’s your second favorite?”", ">\n\n🤷‍♂️ I can whiff on a joke with a real answer and look like a since. Won't be the first time" ]

[ "Hopefully the dem control in Mi means they will implement it here", ">\n\nI'm in favor!", ">\n\nIf in favor does not win, what is your second choice?", ">\n\nWe already have open primaries (no need to register with a party) so either keep it that way or move to top 2/top 3 primary win system similar to California", ">\n\nI think they were making a ranked choice vote joke lol “If not, what’s your second favorite?”", ">\n\n🤷‍♂️ I can whiff on a joke with a real answer and look like a since. Won't be the first time", ">\n\nImagine if Trump loses the GOP nomination, decides to run as an Independent, and then as a result of this so many red states decide to pass ranked choice voting." ]

[ "Hopefully the dem control in Mi means they will implement it here", ">\n\nI'm in favor!", ">\n\nIf in favor does not win, what is your second choice?", ">\n\nWe already have open primaries (no need to register with a party) so either keep it that way or move to top 2/top 3 primary win system similar to California", ">\n\nI think they were making a ranked choice vote joke lol “If not, what’s your second favorite?”", ">\n\n🤷‍♂️ I can whiff on a joke with a real answer and look like a since. Won't be the first time", ">\n\nImagine if Trump loses the GOP nomination, decides to run as an Independent, and then as a result of this so many red states decide to pass ranked choice voting.", ">\n\nIf the GOP irreparably fractures and passes RCV federally in a panic because of Trump, then he’ll have unintentionally had one of the most positive impacts on American politics in history." ]

[ "Hopefully the dem control in Mi means they will implement it here", ">\n\nI'm in favor!", ">\n\nIf in favor does not win, what is your second choice?", ">\n\nWe already have open primaries (no need to register with a party) so either keep it that way or move to top 2/top 3 primary win system similar to California", ">\n\nI think they were making a ranked choice vote joke lol “If not, what’s your second favorite?”", ">\n\n🤷‍♂️ I can whiff on a joke with a real answer and look like a since. Won't be the first time", ">\n\nImagine if Trump loses the GOP nomination, decides to run as an Independent, and then as a result of this so many red states decide to pass ranked choice voting.", ">\n\nIf the GOP irreparably fractures and passes RCV federally in a panic because of Trump, then he’ll have unintentionally had one of the most positive impacts on American politics in history.", ">\n\nIt really well could destroy the 2 party system that we have, because lets say the the old school and new school Republicans decide to split. If the Dems get supermajorities in congress then everyone should pay very close attention to the relationship between moderate and progressive Democrats. Either progressives get enough concessions or we then get a 4 party system, or maybe even beyond that depending on what happens with current minor parties. \nAnd to think this could all happen because of fucking Trump of all people. Weird." ]

[ "Hopefully the dem control in Mi means they will implement it here", ">\n\nI'm in favor!", ">\n\nIf in favor does not win, what is your second choice?", ">\n\nWe already have open primaries (no need to register with a party) so either keep it that way or move to top 2/top 3 primary win system similar to California", ">\n\nI think they were making a ranked choice vote joke lol “If not, what’s your second favorite?”", ">\n\n🤷‍♂️ I can whiff on a joke with a real answer and look like a since. Won't be the first time", ">\n\nImagine if Trump loses the GOP nomination, decides to run as an Independent, and then as a result of this so many red states decide to pass ranked choice voting.", ">\n\nIf the GOP irreparably fractures and passes RCV federally in a panic because of Trump, then he’ll have unintentionally had one of the most positive impacts on American politics in history.", ">\n\nIt really well could destroy the 2 party system that we have, because lets say the the old school and new school Republicans decide to split. If the Dems get supermajorities in congress then everyone should pay very close attention to the relationship between moderate and progressive Democrats. Either progressives get enough concessions or we then get a 4 party system, or maybe even beyond that depending on what happens with current minor parties. \nAnd to think this could all happen because of fucking Trump of all people. Weird.", ">\n\nRCV won't destroy the 2 party system. AUS uses it for their lower chamber and 10% of seats are won by 3rd parties. 10% for the US would be amazing. AUS's lower chamber is still a 2 party system. \nTheir upper chamber pairs it with multimember districts with 20% of seats won by 3rd parties and it is a multiparty system.\nI do not see democrats getting a supermajority anymore than now. It probably just leads to a few more moderates being elected. Perhaps you'd get a few more progressive democrats winning by virtue of them getting to the general.\nI think it probably reverts to the informal 4 party system of previous decades at best where both parties have more members of the smaller wing. Perhaps slightly more cross party voting." ]

[ "Hopefully the dem control in Mi means they will implement it here", ">\n\nI'm in favor!", ">\n\nIf in favor does not win, what is your second choice?", ">\n\nWe already have open primaries (no need to register with a party) so either keep it that way or move to top 2/top 3 primary win system similar to California", ">\n\nI think they were making a ranked choice vote joke lol “If not, what’s your second favorite?”", ">\n\n🤷‍♂️ I can whiff on a joke with a real answer and look like a since. Won't be the first time", ">\n\nImagine if Trump loses the GOP nomination, decides to run as an Independent, and then as a result of this so many red states decide to pass ranked choice voting.", ">\n\nIf the GOP irreparably fractures and passes RCV federally in a panic because of Trump, then he’ll have unintentionally had one of the most positive impacts on American politics in history.", ">\n\nIt really well could destroy the 2 party system that we have, because lets say the the old school and new school Republicans decide to split. If the Dems get supermajorities in congress then everyone should pay very close attention to the relationship between moderate and progressive Democrats. Either progressives get enough concessions or we then get a 4 party system, or maybe even beyond that depending on what happens with current minor parties. \nAnd to think this could all happen because of fucking Trump of all people. Weird.", ">\n\nRCV won't destroy the 2 party system. AUS uses it for their lower chamber and 10% of seats are won by 3rd parties. 10% for the US would be amazing. AUS's lower chamber is still a 2 party system. \nTheir upper chamber pairs it with multimember districts with 20% of seats won by 3rd parties and it is a multiparty system.\nI do not see democrats getting a supermajority anymore than now. It probably just leads to a few more moderates being elected. Perhaps you'd get a few more progressive democrats winning by virtue of them getting to the general.\nI think it probably reverts to the informal 4 party system of previous decades at best where both parties have more members of the smaller wing. Perhaps slightly more cross party voting.", ">\n\nThe effect of 3rd parties still can't be underrated. One thing that it (theoretically) forces is the major 2 parties being made to adopt policy changes in reaction to popularity rising for a specific 3rd party. This means that there needs to be more common ground and collaboration in politics than the extremist views that the US has all too often." ]

[ "Hopefully the dem control in Mi means they will implement it here", ">\n\nI'm in favor!", ">\n\nIf in favor does not win, what is your second choice?", ">\n\nWe already have open primaries (no need to register with a party) so either keep it that way or move to top 2/top 3 primary win system similar to California", ">\n\nI think they were making a ranked choice vote joke lol “If not, what’s your second favorite?”", ">\n\n🤷‍♂️ I can whiff on a joke with a real answer and look like a since. Won't be the first time", ">\n\nImagine if Trump loses the GOP nomination, decides to run as an Independent, and then as a result of this so many red states decide to pass ranked choice voting.", ">\n\nIf the GOP irreparably fractures and passes RCV federally in a panic because of Trump, then he’ll have unintentionally had one of the most positive impacts on American politics in history.", ">\n\nIt really well could destroy the 2 party system that we have, because lets say the the old school and new school Republicans decide to split. If the Dems get supermajorities in congress then everyone should pay very close attention to the relationship between moderate and progressive Democrats. Either progressives get enough concessions or we then get a 4 party system, or maybe even beyond that depending on what happens with current minor parties. \nAnd to think this could all happen because of fucking Trump of all people. Weird.", ">\n\nRCV won't destroy the 2 party system. AUS uses it for their lower chamber and 10% of seats are won by 3rd parties. 10% for the US would be amazing. AUS's lower chamber is still a 2 party system. \nTheir upper chamber pairs it with multimember districts with 20% of seats won by 3rd parties and it is a multiparty system.\nI do not see democrats getting a supermajority anymore than now. It probably just leads to a few more moderates being elected. Perhaps you'd get a few more progressive democrats winning by virtue of them getting to the general.\nI think it probably reverts to the informal 4 party system of previous decades at best where both parties have more members of the smaller wing. Perhaps slightly more cross party voting.", ">\n\nThe effect of 3rd parties still can't be underrated. One thing that it (theoretically) forces is the major 2 parties being made to adopt policy changes in reaction to popularity rising for a specific 3rd party. This means that there needs to be more common ground and collaboration in politics than the extremist views that the US has all too often.", ">\n\nGood! This is a big step to ending the two party stranglehold" ]

[ "Hopefully the dem control in Mi means they will implement it here", ">\n\nI'm in favor!", ">\n\nIf in favor does not win, what is your second choice?", ">\n\nWe already have open primaries (no need to register with a party) so either keep it that way or move to top 2/top 3 primary win system similar to California", ">\n\nI think they were making a ranked choice vote joke lol “If not, what’s your second favorite?”", ">\n\n🤷‍♂️ I can whiff on a joke with a real answer and look like a since. Won't be the first time", ">\n\nImagine if Trump loses the GOP nomination, decides to run as an Independent, and then as a result of this so many red states decide to pass ranked choice voting.", ">\n\nIf the GOP irreparably fractures and passes RCV federally in a panic because of Trump, then he’ll have unintentionally had one of the most positive impacts on American politics in history.", ">\n\nIt really well could destroy the 2 party system that we have, because lets say the the old school and new school Republicans decide to split. If the Dems get supermajorities in congress then everyone should pay very close attention to the relationship between moderate and progressive Democrats. Either progressives get enough concessions or we then get a 4 party system, or maybe even beyond that depending on what happens with current minor parties. \nAnd to think this could all happen because of fucking Trump of all people. Weird.", ">\n\nRCV won't destroy the 2 party system. AUS uses it for their lower chamber and 10% of seats are won by 3rd parties. 10% for the US would be amazing. AUS's lower chamber is still a 2 party system. \nTheir upper chamber pairs it with multimember districts with 20% of seats won by 3rd parties and it is a multiparty system.\nI do not see democrats getting a supermajority anymore than now. It probably just leads to a few more moderates being elected. Perhaps you'd get a few more progressive democrats winning by virtue of them getting to the general.\nI think it probably reverts to the informal 4 party system of previous decades at best where both parties have more members of the smaller wing. Perhaps slightly more cross party voting.", ">\n\nThe effect of 3rd parties still can't be underrated. One thing that it (theoretically) forces is the major 2 parties being made to adopt policy changes in reaction to popularity rising for a specific 3rd party. This means that there needs to be more common ground and collaboration in politics than the extremist views that the US has all too often.", ">\n\nGood! This is a big step to ending the two party stranglehold", ">\n\nI wish California would adopt Alaska's approach rather than it's 1st in the nation, so head well up its collective butt open primary top-2 system.\nIf there were RCV for GENERAL elections, there'd be much less need for open primaries. RCV would introduce high odds of 3rd party and independent candidates WINNING general elections when Republicans and Democrats nominate extremists, so discounting or eliminating the rationale for open primaries favoring more moderate/centrist candidates. Let parties nominate whoever they want. Let general election voters decide among them." ]

[ "Hopefully the dem control in Mi means they will implement it here", ">\n\nI'm in favor!", ">\n\nIf in favor does not win, what is your second choice?", ">\n\nWe already have open primaries (no need to register with a party) so either keep it that way or move to top 2/top 3 primary win system similar to California", ">\n\nI think they were making a ranked choice vote joke lol “If not, what’s your second favorite?”", ">\n\n🤷‍♂️ I can whiff on a joke with a real answer and look like a since. Won't be the first time", ">\n\nImagine if Trump loses the GOP nomination, decides to run as an Independent, and then as a result of this so many red states decide to pass ranked choice voting.", ">\n\nIf the GOP irreparably fractures and passes RCV federally in a panic because of Trump, then he’ll have unintentionally had one of the most positive impacts on American politics in history.", ">\n\nIt really well could destroy the 2 party system that we have, because lets say the the old school and new school Republicans decide to split. If the Dems get supermajorities in congress then everyone should pay very close attention to the relationship between moderate and progressive Democrats. Either progressives get enough concessions or we then get a 4 party system, or maybe even beyond that depending on what happens with current minor parties. \nAnd to think this could all happen because of fucking Trump of all people. Weird.", ">\n\nRCV won't destroy the 2 party system. AUS uses it for their lower chamber and 10% of seats are won by 3rd parties. 10% for the US would be amazing. AUS's lower chamber is still a 2 party system. \nTheir upper chamber pairs it with multimember districts with 20% of seats won by 3rd parties and it is a multiparty system.\nI do not see democrats getting a supermajority anymore than now. It probably just leads to a few more moderates being elected. Perhaps you'd get a few more progressive democrats winning by virtue of them getting to the general.\nI think it probably reverts to the informal 4 party system of previous decades at best where both parties have more members of the smaller wing. Perhaps slightly more cross party voting.", ">\n\nThe effect of 3rd parties still can't be underrated. One thing that it (theoretically) forces is the major 2 parties being made to adopt policy changes in reaction to popularity rising for a specific 3rd party. This means that there needs to be more common ground and collaboration in politics than the extremist views that the US has all too often.", ">\n\nGood! This is a big step to ending the two party stranglehold", ">\n\nI wish California would adopt Alaska's approach rather than it's 1st in the nation, so head well up its collective butt open primary top-2 system.\nIf there were RCV for GENERAL elections, there'd be much less need for open primaries. RCV would introduce high odds of 3rd party and independent candidates WINNING general elections when Republicans and Democrats nominate extremists, so discounting or eliminating the rationale for open primaries favoring more moderate/centrist candidates. Let parties nominate whoever they want. Let general election voters decide among them.", ">\n\nRCV doesn't increase the odds of 3rd party winning. Having a viable 3rd party that people vote for OVER the two parties increases their chance. \nRight now, the overwhelming majority of people would still vote Democrats or Republicans as their first choice which pretty much makes it's FPTP with extra steps. \nEliminating extreme candidates is definitely something RCV would do though." ]

[ "Hopefully the dem control in Mi means they will implement it here", ">\n\nI'm in favor!", ">\n\nIf in favor does not win, what is your second choice?", ">\n\nWe already have open primaries (no need to register with a party) so either keep it that way or move to top 2/top 3 primary win system similar to California", ">\n\nI think they were making a ranked choice vote joke lol “If not, what’s your second favorite?”", ">\n\n🤷‍♂️ I can whiff on a joke with a real answer and look like a since. Won't be the first time", ">\n\nImagine if Trump loses the GOP nomination, decides to run as an Independent, and then as a result of this so many red states decide to pass ranked choice voting.", ">\n\nIf the GOP irreparably fractures and passes RCV federally in a panic because of Trump, then he’ll have unintentionally had one of the most positive impacts on American politics in history.", ">\n\nIt really well could destroy the 2 party system that we have, because lets say the the old school and new school Republicans decide to split. If the Dems get supermajorities in congress then everyone should pay very close attention to the relationship between moderate and progressive Democrats. Either progressives get enough concessions or we then get a 4 party system, or maybe even beyond that depending on what happens with current minor parties. \nAnd to think this could all happen because of fucking Trump of all people. Weird.", ">\n\nRCV won't destroy the 2 party system. AUS uses it for their lower chamber and 10% of seats are won by 3rd parties. 10% for the US would be amazing. AUS's lower chamber is still a 2 party system. \nTheir upper chamber pairs it with multimember districts with 20% of seats won by 3rd parties and it is a multiparty system.\nI do not see democrats getting a supermajority anymore than now. It probably just leads to a few more moderates being elected. Perhaps you'd get a few more progressive democrats winning by virtue of them getting to the general.\nI think it probably reverts to the informal 4 party system of previous decades at best where both parties have more members of the smaller wing. Perhaps slightly more cross party voting.", ">\n\nThe effect of 3rd parties still can't be underrated. One thing that it (theoretically) forces is the major 2 parties being made to adopt policy changes in reaction to popularity rising for a specific 3rd party. This means that there needs to be more common ground and collaboration in politics than the extremist views that the US has all too often.", ">\n\nGood! This is a big step to ending the two party stranglehold", ">\n\nI wish California would adopt Alaska's approach rather than it's 1st in the nation, so head well up its collective butt open primary top-2 system.\nIf there were RCV for GENERAL elections, there'd be much less need for open primaries. RCV would introduce high odds of 3rd party and independent candidates WINNING general elections when Republicans and Democrats nominate extremists, so discounting or eliminating the rationale for open primaries favoring more moderate/centrist candidates. Let parties nominate whoever they want. Let general election voters decide among them.", ">\n\nRCV doesn't increase the odds of 3rd party winning. Having a viable 3rd party that people vote for OVER the two parties increases their chance. \nRight now, the overwhelming majority of people would still vote Democrats or Republicans as their first choice which pretty much makes it's FPTP with extra steps. \nEliminating extreme candidates is definitely something RCV would do though.", ">\n\n\nRight now, the overwhelming majority of people would still vote Democrats or Republicans as their first choice which pretty much makes it's FPTP with extra steps.\n\nAgain, we're letting perfect be the enemy of good. \nYes, it is a truism that if people still vote in a RCV election like it's FPTP, it'll end up with the same results of a FPTP election. \nBut the point is that nothing will get better unless something changes. And once people have an option other that strategic voting, it can get better. And this statement: \n\nRCV doesn't increase the odds of 3rd party winning.\n\nIs just plain untrue. In a FPTP election a third party stands almost zero chance of winning due to strategic voting. You could say probably nonzero becasue it's so unlikely, in all but the smallest elections where local organization and recognition can overpower the big two names throwing money at it." ]

[ "Hopefully the dem control in Mi means they will implement it here", ">\n\nI'm in favor!", ">\n\nIf in favor does not win, what is your second choice?", ">\n\nWe already have open primaries (no need to register with a party) so either keep it that way or move to top 2/top 3 primary win system similar to California", ">\n\nI think they were making a ranked choice vote joke lol “If not, what’s your second favorite?”", ">\n\n🤷‍♂️ I can whiff on a joke with a real answer and look like a since. Won't be the first time", ">\n\nImagine if Trump loses the GOP nomination, decides to run as an Independent, and then as a result of this so many red states decide to pass ranked choice voting.", ">\n\nIf the GOP irreparably fractures and passes RCV federally in a panic because of Trump, then he’ll have unintentionally had one of the most positive impacts on American politics in history.", ">\n\nIt really well could destroy the 2 party system that we have, because lets say the the old school and new school Republicans decide to split. If the Dems get supermajorities in congress then everyone should pay very close attention to the relationship between moderate and progressive Democrats. Either progressives get enough concessions or we then get a 4 party system, or maybe even beyond that depending on what happens with current minor parties. \nAnd to think this could all happen because of fucking Trump of all people. Weird.", ">\n\nRCV won't destroy the 2 party system. AUS uses it for their lower chamber and 10% of seats are won by 3rd parties. 10% for the US would be amazing. AUS's lower chamber is still a 2 party system. \nTheir upper chamber pairs it with multimember districts with 20% of seats won by 3rd parties and it is a multiparty system.\nI do not see democrats getting a supermajority anymore than now. It probably just leads to a few more moderates being elected. Perhaps you'd get a few more progressive democrats winning by virtue of them getting to the general.\nI think it probably reverts to the informal 4 party system of previous decades at best where both parties have more members of the smaller wing. Perhaps slightly more cross party voting.", ">\n\nThe effect of 3rd parties still can't be underrated. One thing that it (theoretically) forces is the major 2 parties being made to adopt policy changes in reaction to popularity rising for a specific 3rd party. This means that there needs to be more common ground and collaboration in politics than the extremist views that the US has all too often.", ">\n\nGood! This is a big step to ending the two party stranglehold", ">\n\nI wish California would adopt Alaska's approach rather than it's 1st in the nation, so head well up its collective butt open primary top-2 system.\nIf there were RCV for GENERAL elections, there'd be much less need for open primaries. RCV would introduce high odds of 3rd party and independent candidates WINNING general elections when Republicans and Democrats nominate extremists, so discounting or eliminating the rationale for open primaries favoring more moderate/centrist candidates. Let parties nominate whoever they want. Let general election voters decide among them.", ">\n\nRCV doesn't increase the odds of 3rd party winning. Having a viable 3rd party that people vote for OVER the two parties increases their chance. \nRight now, the overwhelming majority of people would still vote Democrats or Republicans as their first choice which pretty much makes it's FPTP with extra steps. \nEliminating extreme candidates is definitely something RCV would do though.", ">\n\n\nRight now, the overwhelming majority of people would still vote Democrats or Republicans as their first choice which pretty much makes it's FPTP with extra steps.\n\nAgain, we're letting perfect be the enemy of good. \nYes, it is a truism that if people still vote in a RCV election like it's FPTP, it'll end up with the same results of a FPTP election. \nBut the point is that nothing will get better unless something changes. And once people have an option other that strategic voting, it can get better. And this statement: \n\nRCV doesn't increase the odds of 3rd party winning.\n\nIs just plain untrue. In a FPTP election a third party stands almost zero chance of winning due to strategic voting. You could say probably nonzero becasue it's so unlikely, in all but the smallest elections where local organization and recognition can overpower the big two names throwing money at it.", ">\n\nBut isn't trying to change an entire electoral system to get some hypothetical desired results the definition of letting perfect be the enemy of good? If that doesn't work do we move on to the next one? \nThe thing is that changing the system doesn't change how people will vote. It's a people problem, not a system problem. \n\nIs just plain untrue\n\nOnce again you're pointing out that it's not the system, it's people making strategic decisions. What changes about RCV? People will still vote strategically. Like I mentioned below, place a D or R too low, helps the people who place a D or R higher becuase that candidate could be eliminated if they aren't ranked high enough. \nA third party has just as much chance in FPTP to win as in RCV. People just don't vote for them." ]

[ "Hopefully the dem control in Mi means they will implement it here", ">\n\nI'm in favor!", ">\n\nIf in favor does not win, what is your second choice?", ">\n\nWe already have open primaries (no need to register with a party) so either keep it that way or move to top 2/top 3 primary win system similar to California", ">\n\nI think they were making a ranked choice vote joke lol “If not, what’s your second favorite?”", ">\n\n🤷‍♂️ I can whiff on a joke with a real answer and look like a since. Won't be the first time", ">\n\nImagine if Trump loses the GOP nomination, decides to run as an Independent, and then as a result of this so many red states decide to pass ranked choice voting.", ">\n\nIf the GOP irreparably fractures and passes RCV federally in a panic because of Trump, then he’ll have unintentionally had one of the most positive impacts on American politics in history.", ">\n\nIt really well could destroy the 2 party system that we have, because lets say the the old school and new school Republicans decide to split. If the Dems get supermajorities in congress then everyone should pay very close attention to the relationship between moderate and progressive Democrats. Either progressives get enough concessions or we then get a 4 party system, or maybe even beyond that depending on what happens with current minor parties. \nAnd to think this could all happen because of fucking Trump of all people. Weird.", ">\n\nRCV won't destroy the 2 party system. AUS uses it for their lower chamber and 10% of seats are won by 3rd parties. 10% for the US would be amazing. AUS's lower chamber is still a 2 party system. \nTheir upper chamber pairs it with multimember districts with 20% of seats won by 3rd parties and it is a multiparty system.\nI do not see democrats getting a supermajority anymore than now. It probably just leads to a few more moderates being elected. Perhaps you'd get a few more progressive democrats winning by virtue of them getting to the general.\nI think it probably reverts to the informal 4 party system of previous decades at best where both parties have more members of the smaller wing. Perhaps slightly more cross party voting.", ">\n\nThe effect of 3rd parties still can't be underrated. One thing that it (theoretically) forces is the major 2 parties being made to adopt policy changes in reaction to popularity rising for a specific 3rd party. This means that there needs to be more common ground and collaboration in politics than the extremist views that the US has all too often.", ">\n\nGood! This is a big step to ending the two party stranglehold", ">\n\nI wish California would adopt Alaska's approach rather than it's 1st in the nation, so head well up its collective butt open primary top-2 system.\nIf there were RCV for GENERAL elections, there'd be much less need for open primaries. RCV would introduce high odds of 3rd party and independent candidates WINNING general elections when Republicans and Democrats nominate extremists, so discounting or eliminating the rationale for open primaries favoring more moderate/centrist candidates. Let parties nominate whoever they want. Let general election voters decide among them.", ">\n\nRCV doesn't increase the odds of 3rd party winning. Having a viable 3rd party that people vote for OVER the two parties increases their chance. \nRight now, the overwhelming majority of people would still vote Democrats or Republicans as their first choice which pretty much makes it's FPTP with extra steps. \nEliminating extreme candidates is definitely something RCV would do though.", ">\n\n\nRight now, the overwhelming majority of people would still vote Democrats or Republicans as their first choice which pretty much makes it's FPTP with extra steps.\n\nAgain, we're letting perfect be the enemy of good. \nYes, it is a truism that if people still vote in a RCV election like it's FPTP, it'll end up with the same results of a FPTP election. \nBut the point is that nothing will get better unless something changes. And once people have an option other that strategic voting, it can get better. And this statement: \n\nRCV doesn't increase the odds of 3rd party winning.\n\nIs just plain untrue. In a FPTP election a third party stands almost zero chance of winning due to strategic voting. You could say probably nonzero becasue it's so unlikely, in all but the smallest elections where local organization and recognition can overpower the big two names throwing money at it.", ">\n\nBut isn't trying to change an entire electoral system to get some hypothetical desired results the definition of letting perfect be the enemy of good? If that doesn't work do we move on to the next one? \nThe thing is that changing the system doesn't change how people will vote. It's a people problem, not a system problem. \n\nIs just plain untrue\n\nOnce again you're pointing out that it's not the system, it's people making strategic decisions. What changes about RCV? People will still vote strategically. Like I mentioned below, place a D or R too low, helps the people who place a D or R higher becuase that candidate could be eliminated if they aren't ranked high enough. \nA third party has just as much chance in FPTP to win as in RCV. People just don't vote for them.", ">\n\n\nBut isn't trying to change an entire electoral system to get some hypothetical desired results the definition of letting perfect be the enemy of good?\n\nNo, it's not. I'm not sure how to say it's not other than to point out that I wouldn't advocate for what you are saying, \"a wholesale change.\" It's not a wholesale change, it's incremental from region to region, state to state, county to county even. It's a campaign for evolutionary change, not \"changing the whole system overnight.\" \nAnd besides that, RCV is probably not the best alternative voting method, it's just better than first past the post. The sooner we move past \"which alternative voting method is best\"-paralysis to \"why not start with any better one at any level,\" the better. America could use every alternative voting method in a mix from RCV to STV to multi member elections/districts, etc... and it would be better than anywhere right now using single member, first past the post systems. It's the worst style of voting over time for anything with higher stakes than \"where are we going to lunch.\"\nBesides, you are literally arguing against proof that has already notably surfaced in Alaska's house election the past two cycles there as to how a better representative candidate can succeed in ranked choice voting. \nBut wait! (you might say) Democrats aren't a third party! So that's wrong!\nThe idea behind ranked choice voting is that it will drive a better consensus candidate that everyone can live with. If that means it's a third party in a purple district that people can vote for without fear of throwing their vote away who wins the first party ballot, or eventually against other round candidates, then great! In Alaska, the best consensus candidate was Peltola, who happens to be a democrat. What we got there was in effect a third party (MAGA/Palin) driving people towards a saner alternative that best represents them. The system still worked becasue the third party sucked!" ]

[ "Hopefully the dem control in Mi means they will implement it here", ">\n\nI'm in favor!", ">\n\nIf in favor does not win, what is your second choice?", ">\n\nWe already have open primaries (no need to register with a party) so either keep it that way or move to top 2/top 3 primary win system similar to California", ">\n\nI think they were making a ranked choice vote joke lol “If not, what’s your second favorite?”", ">\n\n🤷‍♂️ I can whiff on a joke with a real answer and look like a since. Won't be the first time", ">\n\nImagine if Trump loses the GOP nomination, decides to run as an Independent, and then as a result of this so many red states decide to pass ranked choice voting.", ">\n\nIf the GOP irreparably fractures and passes RCV federally in a panic because of Trump, then he’ll have unintentionally had one of the most positive impacts on American politics in history.", ">\n\nIt really well could destroy the 2 party system that we have, because lets say the the old school and new school Republicans decide to split. If the Dems get supermajorities in congress then everyone should pay very close attention to the relationship between moderate and progressive Democrats. Either progressives get enough concessions or we then get a 4 party system, or maybe even beyond that depending on what happens with current minor parties. \nAnd to think this could all happen because of fucking Trump of all people. Weird.", ">\n\nRCV won't destroy the 2 party system. AUS uses it for their lower chamber and 10% of seats are won by 3rd parties. 10% for the US would be amazing. AUS's lower chamber is still a 2 party system. \nTheir upper chamber pairs it with multimember districts with 20% of seats won by 3rd parties and it is a multiparty system.\nI do not see democrats getting a supermajority anymore than now. It probably just leads to a few more moderates being elected. Perhaps you'd get a few more progressive democrats winning by virtue of them getting to the general.\nI think it probably reverts to the informal 4 party system of previous decades at best where both parties have more members of the smaller wing. Perhaps slightly more cross party voting.", ">\n\nThe effect of 3rd parties still can't be underrated. One thing that it (theoretically) forces is the major 2 parties being made to adopt policy changes in reaction to popularity rising for a specific 3rd party. This means that there needs to be more common ground and collaboration in politics than the extremist views that the US has all too often.", ">\n\nGood! This is a big step to ending the two party stranglehold", ">\n\nI wish California would adopt Alaska's approach rather than it's 1st in the nation, so head well up its collective butt open primary top-2 system.\nIf there were RCV for GENERAL elections, there'd be much less need for open primaries. RCV would introduce high odds of 3rd party and independent candidates WINNING general elections when Republicans and Democrats nominate extremists, so discounting or eliminating the rationale for open primaries favoring more moderate/centrist candidates. Let parties nominate whoever they want. Let general election voters decide among them.", ">\n\nRCV doesn't increase the odds of 3rd party winning. Having a viable 3rd party that people vote for OVER the two parties increases their chance. \nRight now, the overwhelming majority of people would still vote Democrats or Republicans as their first choice which pretty much makes it's FPTP with extra steps. \nEliminating extreme candidates is definitely something RCV would do though.", ">\n\n\nRight now, the overwhelming majority of people would still vote Democrats or Republicans as their first choice which pretty much makes it's FPTP with extra steps.\n\nAgain, we're letting perfect be the enemy of good. \nYes, it is a truism that if people still vote in a RCV election like it's FPTP, it'll end up with the same results of a FPTP election. \nBut the point is that nothing will get better unless something changes. And once people have an option other that strategic voting, it can get better. And this statement: \n\nRCV doesn't increase the odds of 3rd party winning.\n\nIs just plain untrue. In a FPTP election a third party stands almost zero chance of winning due to strategic voting. You could say probably nonzero becasue it's so unlikely, in all but the smallest elections where local organization and recognition can overpower the big two names throwing money at it.", ">\n\nBut isn't trying to change an entire electoral system to get some hypothetical desired results the definition of letting perfect be the enemy of good? If that doesn't work do we move on to the next one? \nThe thing is that changing the system doesn't change how people will vote. It's a people problem, not a system problem. \n\nIs just plain untrue\n\nOnce again you're pointing out that it's not the system, it's people making strategic decisions. What changes about RCV? People will still vote strategically. Like I mentioned below, place a D or R too low, helps the people who place a D or R higher becuase that candidate could be eliminated if they aren't ranked high enough. \nA third party has just as much chance in FPTP to win as in RCV. People just don't vote for them.", ">\n\n\nBut isn't trying to change an entire electoral system to get some hypothetical desired results the definition of letting perfect be the enemy of good?\n\nNo, it's not. I'm not sure how to say it's not other than to point out that I wouldn't advocate for what you are saying, \"a wholesale change.\" It's not a wholesale change, it's incremental from region to region, state to state, county to county even. It's a campaign for evolutionary change, not \"changing the whole system overnight.\" \nAnd besides that, RCV is probably not the best alternative voting method, it's just better than first past the post. The sooner we move past \"which alternative voting method is best\"-paralysis to \"why not start with any better one at any level,\" the better. America could use every alternative voting method in a mix from RCV to STV to multi member elections/districts, etc... and it would be better than anywhere right now using single member, first past the post systems. It's the worst style of voting over time for anything with higher stakes than \"where are we going to lunch.\"\nBesides, you are literally arguing against proof that has already notably surfaced in Alaska's house election the past two cycles there as to how a better representative candidate can succeed in ranked choice voting. \nBut wait! (you might say) Democrats aren't a third party! So that's wrong!\nThe idea behind ranked choice voting is that it will drive a better consensus candidate that everyone can live with. If that means it's a third party in a purple district that people can vote for without fear of throwing their vote away who wins the first party ballot, or eventually against other round candidates, then great! In Alaska, the best consensus candidate was Peltola, who happens to be a democrat. What we got there was in effect a third party (MAGA/Palin) driving people towards a saner alternative that best represents them. The system still worked becasue the third party sucked!", ">\n\nAlaska still has a Republican in office. Despite their being multiple third party candidates. Matter of fact, RCV around the world hasn't produced any major third party. Because RCV doesn't change why people vote, it just changes how they vote. \nAt the end of the day, we can have any given system, but if people still prefer the two parties that's what we will get. \nIf you want a third party, let's start with having a viable third party first.\nChanging an entire system, incrementally or not, isn't going to make the two parties disappear, or magically introduce a viable alternative.\nAll of this to say, your example is exactly why RCV is a long winded solution that does nothing at all." ]

[ "Hopefully the dem control in Mi means they will implement it here", ">\n\nI'm in favor!", ">\n\nIf in favor does not win, what is your second choice?", ">\n\nWe already have open primaries (no need to register with a party) so either keep it that way or move to top 2/top 3 primary win system similar to California", ">\n\nI think they were making a ranked choice vote joke lol “If not, what’s your second favorite?”", ">\n\n🤷‍♂️ I can whiff on a joke with a real answer and look like a since. Won't be the first time", ">\n\nImagine if Trump loses the GOP nomination, decides to run as an Independent, and then as a result of this so many red states decide to pass ranked choice voting.", ">\n\nIf the GOP irreparably fractures and passes RCV federally in a panic because of Trump, then he’ll have unintentionally had one of the most positive impacts on American politics in history.", ">\n\nIt really well could destroy the 2 party system that we have, because lets say the the old school and new school Republicans decide to split. If the Dems get supermajorities in congress then everyone should pay very close attention to the relationship between moderate and progressive Democrats. Either progressives get enough concessions or we then get a 4 party system, or maybe even beyond that depending on what happens with current minor parties. \nAnd to think this could all happen because of fucking Trump of all people. Weird.", ">\n\nRCV won't destroy the 2 party system. AUS uses it for their lower chamber and 10% of seats are won by 3rd parties. 10% for the US would be amazing. AUS's lower chamber is still a 2 party system. \nTheir upper chamber pairs it with multimember districts with 20% of seats won by 3rd parties and it is a multiparty system.\nI do not see democrats getting a supermajority anymore than now. It probably just leads to a few more moderates being elected. Perhaps you'd get a few more progressive democrats winning by virtue of them getting to the general.\nI think it probably reverts to the informal 4 party system of previous decades at best where both parties have more members of the smaller wing. Perhaps slightly more cross party voting.", ">\n\nThe effect of 3rd parties still can't be underrated. One thing that it (theoretically) forces is the major 2 parties being made to adopt policy changes in reaction to popularity rising for a specific 3rd party. This means that there needs to be more common ground and collaboration in politics than the extremist views that the US has all too often.", ">\n\nGood! This is a big step to ending the two party stranglehold", ">\n\nI wish California would adopt Alaska's approach rather than it's 1st in the nation, so head well up its collective butt open primary top-2 system.\nIf there were RCV for GENERAL elections, there'd be much less need for open primaries. RCV would introduce high odds of 3rd party and independent candidates WINNING general elections when Republicans and Democrats nominate extremists, so discounting or eliminating the rationale for open primaries favoring more moderate/centrist candidates. Let parties nominate whoever they want. Let general election voters decide among them.", ">\n\nRCV doesn't increase the odds of 3rd party winning. Having a viable 3rd party that people vote for OVER the two parties increases their chance. \nRight now, the overwhelming majority of people would still vote Democrats or Republicans as their first choice which pretty much makes it's FPTP with extra steps. \nEliminating extreme candidates is definitely something RCV would do though.", ">\n\n\nRight now, the overwhelming majority of people would still vote Democrats or Republicans as their first choice which pretty much makes it's FPTP with extra steps.\n\nAgain, we're letting perfect be the enemy of good. \nYes, it is a truism that if people still vote in a RCV election like it's FPTP, it'll end up with the same results of a FPTP election. \nBut the point is that nothing will get better unless something changes. And once people have an option other that strategic voting, it can get better. And this statement: \n\nRCV doesn't increase the odds of 3rd party winning.\n\nIs just plain untrue. In a FPTP election a third party stands almost zero chance of winning due to strategic voting. You could say probably nonzero becasue it's so unlikely, in all but the smallest elections where local organization and recognition can overpower the big two names throwing money at it.", ">\n\nBut isn't trying to change an entire electoral system to get some hypothetical desired results the definition of letting perfect be the enemy of good? If that doesn't work do we move on to the next one? \nThe thing is that changing the system doesn't change how people will vote. It's a people problem, not a system problem. \n\nIs just plain untrue\n\nOnce again you're pointing out that it's not the system, it's people making strategic decisions. What changes about RCV? People will still vote strategically. Like I mentioned below, place a D or R too low, helps the people who place a D or R higher becuase that candidate could be eliminated if they aren't ranked high enough. \nA third party has just as much chance in FPTP to win as in RCV. People just don't vote for them.", ">\n\n\nBut isn't trying to change an entire electoral system to get some hypothetical desired results the definition of letting perfect be the enemy of good?\n\nNo, it's not. I'm not sure how to say it's not other than to point out that I wouldn't advocate for what you are saying, \"a wholesale change.\" It's not a wholesale change, it's incremental from region to region, state to state, county to county even. It's a campaign for evolutionary change, not \"changing the whole system overnight.\" \nAnd besides that, RCV is probably not the best alternative voting method, it's just better than first past the post. The sooner we move past \"which alternative voting method is best\"-paralysis to \"why not start with any better one at any level,\" the better. America could use every alternative voting method in a mix from RCV to STV to multi member elections/districts, etc... and it would be better than anywhere right now using single member, first past the post systems. It's the worst style of voting over time for anything with higher stakes than \"where are we going to lunch.\"\nBesides, you are literally arguing against proof that has already notably surfaced in Alaska's house election the past two cycles there as to how a better representative candidate can succeed in ranked choice voting. \nBut wait! (you might say) Democrats aren't a third party! So that's wrong!\nThe idea behind ranked choice voting is that it will drive a better consensus candidate that everyone can live with. If that means it's a third party in a purple district that people can vote for without fear of throwing their vote away who wins the first party ballot, or eventually against other round candidates, then great! In Alaska, the best consensus candidate was Peltola, who happens to be a democrat. What we got there was in effect a third party (MAGA/Palin) driving people towards a saner alternative that best represents them. The system still worked becasue the third party sucked!", ">\n\nAlaska still has a Republican in office. Despite their being multiple third party candidates. Matter of fact, RCV around the world hasn't produced any major third party. Because RCV doesn't change why people vote, it just changes how they vote. \nAt the end of the day, we can have any given system, but if people still prefer the two parties that's what we will get. \nIf you want a third party, let's start with having a viable third party first.\nChanging an entire system, incrementally or not, isn't going to make the two parties disappear, or magically introduce a viable alternative.\nAll of this to say, your example is exactly why RCV is a long winded solution that does nothing at all.", ">\n\nRCV helps a little because 3rd parties are sabotaged by the 2 main parties when even getting on the ballot. Recent example is the Green party in the NC senate race. Dems on the elections board kicked them off the ballot just because. They had to get reinstated via the courts. That wastes time and limited campaign funds. \nWith RCV there is less incentive for the main parties to sabotage 3rd party spoilers for their own side. \nThey likely won't win more than once in a blue moon. \nThe real goal in my mind is to help tamp down extremism a bit and hopefully switch to multi member districts for legislative elections. That then creates the conditions for the 2 parties to split at least in some localities. Also 3rd parties can win the odd seat since the district will be larger and in some places there are enough voters who could vote for them once they realize they stand a chance. \nFailing that they can push issues to be co-opted by the 2 main candidates." ]

[ "Hopefully the dem control in Mi means they will implement it here", ">\n\nI'm in favor!", ">\n\nIf in favor does not win, what is your second choice?", ">\n\nWe already have open primaries (no need to register with a party) so either keep it that way or move to top 2/top 3 primary win system similar to California", ">\n\nI think they were making a ranked choice vote joke lol “If not, what’s your second favorite?”", ">\n\n🤷‍♂️ I can whiff on a joke with a real answer and look like a since. Won't be the first time", ">\n\nImagine if Trump loses the GOP nomination, decides to run as an Independent, and then as a result of this so many red states decide to pass ranked choice voting.", ">\n\nIf the GOP irreparably fractures and passes RCV federally in a panic because of Trump, then he’ll have unintentionally had one of the most positive impacts on American politics in history.", ">\n\nIt really well could destroy the 2 party system that we have, because lets say the the old school and new school Republicans decide to split. If the Dems get supermajorities in congress then everyone should pay very close attention to the relationship between moderate and progressive Democrats. Either progressives get enough concessions or we then get a 4 party system, or maybe even beyond that depending on what happens with current minor parties. \nAnd to think this could all happen because of fucking Trump of all people. Weird.", ">\n\nRCV won't destroy the 2 party system. AUS uses it for their lower chamber and 10% of seats are won by 3rd parties. 10% for the US would be amazing. AUS's lower chamber is still a 2 party system. \nTheir upper chamber pairs it with multimember districts with 20% of seats won by 3rd parties and it is a multiparty system.\nI do not see democrats getting a supermajority anymore than now. It probably just leads to a few more moderates being elected. Perhaps you'd get a few more progressive democrats winning by virtue of them getting to the general.\nI think it probably reverts to the informal 4 party system of previous decades at best where both parties have more members of the smaller wing. Perhaps slightly more cross party voting.", ">\n\nThe effect of 3rd parties still can't be underrated. One thing that it (theoretically) forces is the major 2 parties being made to adopt policy changes in reaction to popularity rising for a specific 3rd party. This means that there needs to be more common ground and collaboration in politics than the extremist views that the US has all too often.", ">\n\nGood! This is a big step to ending the two party stranglehold", ">\n\nI wish California would adopt Alaska's approach rather than it's 1st in the nation, so head well up its collective butt open primary top-2 system.\nIf there were RCV for GENERAL elections, there'd be much less need for open primaries. RCV would introduce high odds of 3rd party and independent candidates WINNING general elections when Republicans and Democrats nominate extremists, so discounting or eliminating the rationale for open primaries favoring more moderate/centrist candidates. Let parties nominate whoever they want. Let general election voters decide among them.", ">\n\nRCV doesn't increase the odds of 3rd party winning. Having a viable 3rd party that people vote for OVER the two parties increases their chance. \nRight now, the overwhelming majority of people would still vote Democrats or Republicans as their first choice which pretty much makes it's FPTP with extra steps. \nEliminating extreme candidates is definitely something RCV would do though.", ">\n\n\nRight now, the overwhelming majority of people would still vote Democrats or Republicans as their first choice which pretty much makes it's FPTP with extra steps.\n\nAgain, we're letting perfect be the enemy of good. \nYes, it is a truism that if people still vote in a RCV election like it's FPTP, it'll end up with the same results of a FPTP election. \nBut the point is that nothing will get better unless something changes. And once people have an option other that strategic voting, it can get better. And this statement: \n\nRCV doesn't increase the odds of 3rd party winning.\n\nIs just plain untrue. In a FPTP election a third party stands almost zero chance of winning due to strategic voting. You could say probably nonzero becasue it's so unlikely, in all but the smallest elections where local organization and recognition can overpower the big two names throwing money at it.", ">\n\nBut isn't trying to change an entire electoral system to get some hypothetical desired results the definition of letting perfect be the enemy of good? If that doesn't work do we move on to the next one? \nThe thing is that changing the system doesn't change how people will vote. It's a people problem, not a system problem. \n\nIs just plain untrue\n\nOnce again you're pointing out that it's not the system, it's people making strategic decisions. What changes about RCV? People will still vote strategically. Like I mentioned below, place a D or R too low, helps the people who place a D or R higher becuase that candidate could be eliminated if they aren't ranked high enough. \nA third party has just as much chance in FPTP to win as in RCV. People just don't vote for them.", ">\n\n\nBut isn't trying to change an entire electoral system to get some hypothetical desired results the definition of letting perfect be the enemy of good?\n\nNo, it's not. I'm not sure how to say it's not other than to point out that I wouldn't advocate for what you are saying, \"a wholesale change.\" It's not a wholesale change, it's incremental from region to region, state to state, county to county even. It's a campaign for evolutionary change, not \"changing the whole system overnight.\" \nAnd besides that, RCV is probably not the best alternative voting method, it's just better than first past the post. The sooner we move past \"which alternative voting method is best\"-paralysis to \"why not start with any better one at any level,\" the better. America could use every alternative voting method in a mix from RCV to STV to multi member elections/districts, etc... and it would be better than anywhere right now using single member, first past the post systems. It's the worst style of voting over time for anything with higher stakes than \"where are we going to lunch.\"\nBesides, you are literally arguing against proof that has already notably surfaced in Alaska's house election the past two cycles there as to how a better representative candidate can succeed in ranked choice voting. \nBut wait! (you might say) Democrats aren't a third party! So that's wrong!\nThe idea behind ranked choice voting is that it will drive a better consensus candidate that everyone can live with. If that means it's a third party in a purple district that people can vote for without fear of throwing their vote away who wins the first party ballot, or eventually against other round candidates, then great! In Alaska, the best consensus candidate was Peltola, who happens to be a democrat. What we got there was in effect a third party (MAGA/Palin) driving people towards a saner alternative that best represents them. The system still worked becasue the third party sucked!", ">\n\nAlaska still has a Republican in office. Despite their being multiple third party candidates. Matter of fact, RCV around the world hasn't produced any major third party. Because RCV doesn't change why people vote, it just changes how they vote. \nAt the end of the day, we can have any given system, but if people still prefer the two parties that's what we will get. \nIf you want a third party, let's start with having a viable third party first.\nChanging an entire system, incrementally or not, isn't going to make the two parties disappear, or magically introduce a viable alternative.\nAll of this to say, your example is exactly why RCV is a long winded solution that does nothing at all.", ">\n\nRCV helps a little because 3rd parties are sabotaged by the 2 main parties when even getting on the ballot. Recent example is the Green party in the NC senate race. Dems on the elections board kicked them off the ballot just because. They had to get reinstated via the courts. That wastes time and limited campaign funds. \nWith RCV there is less incentive for the main parties to sabotage 3rd party spoilers for their own side. \nThey likely won't win more than once in a blue moon. \nThe real goal in my mind is to help tamp down extremism a bit and hopefully switch to multi member districts for legislative elections. That then creates the conditions for the 2 parties to split at least in some localities. Also 3rd parties can win the odd seat since the district will be larger and in some places there are enough voters who could vote for them once they realize they stand a chance. \nFailing that they can push issues to be co-opted by the 2 main candidates.", ">\n\nGood. Maybe we'll actually start to break the two party dynamic that has stymied change in this nation." ]

[ "Hopefully the dem control in Mi means they will implement it here", ">\n\nI'm in favor!", ">\n\nIf in favor does not win, what is your second choice?", ">\n\nWe already have open primaries (no need to register with a party) so either keep it that way or move to top 2/top 3 primary win system similar to California", ">\n\nI think they were making a ranked choice vote joke lol “If not, what’s your second favorite?”", ">\n\n🤷‍♂️ I can whiff on a joke with a real answer and look like a since. Won't be the first time", ">\n\nImagine if Trump loses the GOP nomination, decides to run as an Independent, and then as a result of this so many red states decide to pass ranked choice voting.", ">\n\nIf the GOP irreparably fractures and passes RCV federally in a panic because of Trump, then he’ll have unintentionally had one of the most positive impacts on American politics in history.", ">\n\nIt really well could destroy the 2 party system that we have, because lets say the the old school and new school Republicans decide to split. If the Dems get supermajorities in congress then everyone should pay very close attention to the relationship between moderate and progressive Democrats. Either progressives get enough concessions or we then get a 4 party system, or maybe even beyond that depending on what happens with current minor parties. \nAnd to think this could all happen because of fucking Trump of all people. Weird.", ">\n\nRCV won't destroy the 2 party system. AUS uses it for their lower chamber and 10% of seats are won by 3rd parties. 10% for the US would be amazing. AUS's lower chamber is still a 2 party system. \nTheir upper chamber pairs it with multimember districts with 20% of seats won by 3rd parties and it is a multiparty system.\nI do not see democrats getting a supermajority anymore than now. It probably just leads to a few more moderates being elected. Perhaps you'd get a few more progressive democrats winning by virtue of them getting to the general.\nI think it probably reverts to the informal 4 party system of previous decades at best where both parties have more members of the smaller wing. Perhaps slightly more cross party voting.", ">\n\nThe effect of 3rd parties still can't be underrated. One thing that it (theoretically) forces is the major 2 parties being made to adopt policy changes in reaction to popularity rising for a specific 3rd party. This means that there needs to be more common ground and collaboration in politics than the extremist views that the US has all too often.", ">\n\nGood! This is a big step to ending the two party stranglehold", ">\n\nI wish California would adopt Alaska's approach rather than it's 1st in the nation, so head well up its collective butt open primary top-2 system.\nIf there were RCV for GENERAL elections, there'd be much less need for open primaries. RCV would introduce high odds of 3rd party and independent candidates WINNING general elections when Republicans and Democrats nominate extremists, so discounting or eliminating the rationale for open primaries favoring more moderate/centrist candidates. Let parties nominate whoever they want. Let general election voters decide among them.", ">\n\nRCV doesn't increase the odds of 3rd party winning. Having a viable 3rd party that people vote for OVER the two parties increases their chance. \nRight now, the overwhelming majority of people would still vote Democrats or Republicans as their first choice which pretty much makes it's FPTP with extra steps. \nEliminating extreme candidates is definitely something RCV would do though.", ">\n\n\nRight now, the overwhelming majority of people would still vote Democrats or Republicans as their first choice which pretty much makes it's FPTP with extra steps.\n\nAgain, we're letting perfect be the enemy of good. \nYes, it is a truism that if people still vote in a RCV election like it's FPTP, it'll end up with the same results of a FPTP election. \nBut the point is that nothing will get better unless something changes. And once people have an option other that strategic voting, it can get better. And this statement: \n\nRCV doesn't increase the odds of 3rd party winning.\n\nIs just plain untrue. In a FPTP election a third party stands almost zero chance of winning due to strategic voting. You could say probably nonzero becasue it's so unlikely, in all but the smallest elections where local organization and recognition can overpower the big two names throwing money at it.", ">\n\nBut isn't trying to change an entire electoral system to get some hypothetical desired results the definition of letting perfect be the enemy of good? If that doesn't work do we move on to the next one? \nThe thing is that changing the system doesn't change how people will vote. It's a people problem, not a system problem. \n\nIs just plain untrue\n\nOnce again you're pointing out that it's not the system, it's people making strategic decisions. What changes about RCV? People will still vote strategically. Like I mentioned below, place a D or R too low, helps the people who place a D or R higher becuase that candidate could be eliminated if they aren't ranked high enough. \nA third party has just as much chance in FPTP to win as in RCV. People just don't vote for them.", ">\n\n\nBut isn't trying to change an entire electoral system to get some hypothetical desired results the definition of letting perfect be the enemy of good?\n\nNo, it's not. I'm not sure how to say it's not other than to point out that I wouldn't advocate for what you are saying, \"a wholesale change.\" It's not a wholesale change, it's incremental from region to region, state to state, county to county even. It's a campaign for evolutionary change, not \"changing the whole system overnight.\" \nAnd besides that, RCV is probably not the best alternative voting method, it's just better than first past the post. The sooner we move past \"which alternative voting method is best\"-paralysis to \"why not start with any better one at any level,\" the better. America could use every alternative voting method in a mix from RCV to STV to multi member elections/districts, etc... and it would be better than anywhere right now using single member, first past the post systems. It's the worst style of voting over time for anything with higher stakes than \"where are we going to lunch.\"\nBesides, you are literally arguing against proof that has already notably surfaced in Alaska's house election the past two cycles there as to how a better representative candidate can succeed in ranked choice voting. \nBut wait! (you might say) Democrats aren't a third party! So that's wrong!\nThe idea behind ranked choice voting is that it will drive a better consensus candidate that everyone can live with. If that means it's a third party in a purple district that people can vote for without fear of throwing their vote away who wins the first party ballot, or eventually against other round candidates, then great! In Alaska, the best consensus candidate was Peltola, who happens to be a democrat. What we got there was in effect a third party (MAGA/Palin) driving people towards a saner alternative that best represents them. The system still worked becasue the third party sucked!", ">\n\nAlaska still has a Republican in office. Despite their being multiple third party candidates. Matter of fact, RCV around the world hasn't produced any major third party. Because RCV doesn't change why people vote, it just changes how they vote. \nAt the end of the day, we can have any given system, but if people still prefer the two parties that's what we will get. \nIf you want a third party, let's start with having a viable third party first.\nChanging an entire system, incrementally or not, isn't going to make the two parties disappear, or magically introduce a viable alternative.\nAll of this to say, your example is exactly why RCV is a long winded solution that does nothing at all.", ">\n\nRCV helps a little because 3rd parties are sabotaged by the 2 main parties when even getting on the ballot. Recent example is the Green party in the NC senate race. Dems on the elections board kicked them off the ballot just because. They had to get reinstated via the courts. That wastes time and limited campaign funds. \nWith RCV there is less incentive for the main parties to sabotage 3rd party spoilers for their own side. \nThey likely won't win more than once in a blue moon. \nThe real goal in my mind is to help tamp down extremism a bit and hopefully switch to multi member districts for legislative elections. That then creates the conditions for the 2 parties to split at least in some localities. Also 3rd parties can win the odd seat since the district will be larger and in some places there are enough voters who could vote for them once they realize they stand a chance. \nFailing that they can push issues to be co-opted by the 2 main candidates.", ">\n\nGood. Maybe we'll actually start to break the two party dynamic that has stymied change in this nation.", ">\n\nSeems less likely to challenge the two party dynamic and more likely to just force candidates of both parties more to the center" ]

[ "Hopefully the dem control in Mi means they will implement it here", ">\n\nI'm in favor!", ">\n\nIf in favor does not win, what is your second choice?", ">\n\nWe already have open primaries (no need to register with a party) so either keep it that way or move to top 2/top 3 primary win system similar to California", ">\n\nI think they were making a ranked choice vote joke lol “If not, what’s your second favorite?”", ">\n\n🤷‍♂️ I can whiff on a joke with a real answer and look like a since. Won't be the first time", ">\n\nImagine if Trump loses the GOP nomination, decides to run as an Independent, and then as a result of this so many red states decide to pass ranked choice voting.", ">\n\nIf the GOP irreparably fractures and passes RCV federally in a panic because of Trump, then he’ll have unintentionally had one of the most positive impacts on American politics in history.", ">\n\nIt really well could destroy the 2 party system that we have, because lets say the the old school and new school Republicans decide to split. If the Dems get supermajorities in congress then everyone should pay very close attention to the relationship between moderate and progressive Democrats. Either progressives get enough concessions or we then get a 4 party system, or maybe even beyond that depending on what happens with current minor parties. \nAnd to think this could all happen because of fucking Trump of all people. Weird.", ">\n\nRCV won't destroy the 2 party system. AUS uses it for their lower chamber and 10% of seats are won by 3rd parties. 10% for the US would be amazing. AUS's lower chamber is still a 2 party system. \nTheir upper chamber pairs it with multimember districts with 20% of seats won by 3rd parties and it is a multiparty system.\nI do not see democrats getting a supermajority anymore than now. It probably just leads to a few more moderates being elected. Perhaps you'd get a few more progressive democrats winning by virtue of them getting to the general.\nI think it probably reverts to the informal 4 party system of previous decades at best where both parties have more members of the smaller wing. Perhaps slightly more cross party voting.", ">\n\nThe effect of 3rd parties still can't be underrated. One thing that it (theoretically) forces is the major 2 parties being made to adopt policy changes in reaction to popularity rising for a specific 3rd party. This means that there needs to be more common ground and collaboration in politics than the extremist views that the US has all too often.", ">\n\nGood! This is a big step to ending the two party stranglehold", ">\n\nI wish California would adopt Alaska's approach rather than it's 1st in the nation, so head well up its collective butt open primary top-2 system.\nIf there were RCV for GENERAL elections, there'd be much less need for open primaries. RCV would introduce high odds of 3rd party and independent candidates WINNING general elections when Republicans and Democrats nominate extremists, so discounting or eliminating the rationale for open primaries favoring more moderate/centrist candidates. Let parties nominate whoever they want. Let general election voters decide among them.", ">\n\nRCV doesn't increase the odds of 3rd party winning. Having a viable 3rd party that people vote for OVER the two parties increases their chance. \nRight now, the overwhelming majority of people would still vote Democrats or Republicans as their first choice which pretty much makes it's FPTP with extra steps. \nEliminating extreme candidates is definitely something RCV would do though.", ">\n\n\nRight now, the overwhelming majority of people would still vote Democrats or Republicans as their first choice which pretty much makes it's FPTP with extra steps.\n\nAgain, we're letting perfect be the enemy of good. \nYes, it is a truism that if people still vote in a RCV election like it's FPTP, it'll end up with the same results of a FPTP election. \nBut the point is that nothing will get better unless something changes. And once people have an option other that strategic voting, it can get better. And this statement: \n\nRCV doesn't increase the odds of 3rd party winning.\n\nIs just plain untrue. In a FPTP election a third party stands almost zero chance of winning due to strategic voting. You could say probably nonzero becasue it's so unlikely, in all but the smallest elections where local organization and recognition can overpower the big two names throwing money at it.", ">\n\nBut isn't trying to change an entire electoral system to get some hypothetical desired results the definition of letting perfect be the enemy of good? If that doesn't work do we move on to the next one? \nThe thing is that changing the system doesn't change how people will vote. It's a people problem, not a system problem. \n\nIs just plain untrue\n\nOnce again you're pointing out that it's not the system, it's people making strategic decisions. What changes about RCV? People will still vote strategically. Like I mentioned below, place a D or R too low, helps the people who place a D or R higher becuase that candidate could be eliminated if they aren't ranked high enough. \nA third party has just as much chance in FPTP to win as in RCV. People just don't vote for them.", ">\n\n\nBut isn't trying to change an entire electoral system to get some hypothetical desired results the definition of letting perfect be the enemy of good?\n\nNo, it's not. I'm not sure how to say it's not other than to point out that I wouldn't advocate for what you are saying, \"a wholesale change.\" It's not a wholesale change, it's incremental from region to region, state to state, county to county even. It's a campaign for evolutionary change, not \"changing the whole system overnight.\" \nAnd besides that, RCV is probably not the best alternative voting method, it's just better than first past the post. The sooner we move past \"which alternative voting method is best\"-paralysis to \"why not start with any better one at any level,\" the better. America could use every alternative voting method in a mix from RCV to STV to multi member elections/districts, etc... and it would be better than anywhere right now using single member, first past the post systems. It's the worst style of voting over time for anything with higher stakes than \"where are we going to lunch.\"\nBesides, you are literally arguing against proof that has already notably surfaced in Alaska's house election the past two cycles there as to how a better representative candidate can succeed in ranked choice voting. \nBut wait! (you might say) Democrats aren't a third party! So that's wrong!\nThe idea behind ranked choice voting is that it will drive a better consensus candidate that everyone can live with. If that means it's a third party in a purple district that people can vote for without fear of throwing their vote away who wins the first party ballot, or eventually against other round candidates, then great! In Alaska, the best consensus candidate was Peltola, who happens to be a democrat. What we got there was in effect a third party (MAGA/Palin) driving people towards a saner alternative that best represents them. The system still worked becasue the third party sucked!", ">\n\nAlaska still has a Republican in office. Despite their being multiple third party candidates. Matter of fact, RCV around the world hasn't produced any major third party. Because RCV doesn't change why people vote, it just changes how they vote. \nAt the end of the day, we can have any given system, but if people still prefer the two parties that's what we will get. \nIf you want a third party, let's start with having a viable third party first.\nChanging an entire system, incrementally or not, isn't going to make the two parties disappear, or magically introduce a viable alternative.\nAll of this to say, your example is exactly why RCV is a long winded solution that does nothing at all.", ">\n\nRCV helps a little because 3rd parties are sabotaged by the 2 main parties when even getting on the ballot. Recent example is the Green party in the NC senate race. Dems on the elections board kicked them off the ballot just because. They had to get reinstated via the courts. That wastes time and limited campaign funds. \nWith RCV there is less incentive for the main parties to sabotage 3rd party spoilers for their own side. \nThey likely won't win more than once in a blue moon. \nThe real goal in my mind is to help tamp down extremism a bit and hopefully switch to multi member districts for legislative elections. That then creates the conditions for the 2 parties to split at least in some localities. Also 3rd parties can win the odd seat since the district will be larger and in some places there are enough voters who could vote for them once they realize they stand a chance. \nFailing that they can push issues to be co-opted by the 2 main candidates.", ">\n\nGood. Maybe we'll actually start to break the two party dynamic that has stymied change in this nation.", ">\n\nSeems less likely to challenge the two party dynamic and more likely to just force candidates of both parties more to the center", ">\n\nUnder that interpretation, RCV would make things worse, so I sure hope not." ]

[ "Hopefully the dem control in Mi means they will implement it here", ">\n\nI'm in favor!", ">\n\nIf in favor does not win, what is your second choice?", ">\n\nWe already have open primaries (no need to register with a party) so either keep it that way or move to top 2/top 3 primary win system similar to California", ">\n\nI think they were making a ranked choice vote joke lol “If not, what’s your second favorite?”", ">\n\n🤷‍♂️ I can whiff on a joke with a real answer and look like a since. Won't be the first time", ">\n\nImagine if Trump loses the GOP nomination, decides to run as an Independent, and then as a result of this so many red states decide to pass ranked choice voting.", ">\n\nIf the GOP irreparably fractures and passes RCV federally in a panic because of Trump, then he’ll have unintentionally had one of the most positive impacts on American politics in history.", ">\n\nIt really well could destroy the 2 party system that we have, because lets say the the old school and new school Republicans decide to split. If the Dems get supermajorities in congress then everyone should pay very close attention to the relationship between moderate and progressive Democrats. Either progressives get enough concessions or we then get a 4 party system, or maybe even beyond that depending on what happens with current minor parties. \nAnd to think this could all happen because of fucking Trump of all people. Weird.", ">\n\nRCV won't destroy the 2 party system. AUS uses it for their lower chamber and 10% of seats are won by 3rd parties. 10% for the US would be amazing. AUS's lower chamber is still a 2 party system. \nTheir upper chamber pairs it with multimember districts with 20% of seats won by 3rd parties and it is a multiparty system.\nI do not see democrats getting a supermajority anymore than now. It probably just leads to a few more moderates being elected. Perhaps you'd get a few more progressive democrats winning by virtue of them getting to the general.\nI think it probably reverts to the informal 4 party system of previous decades at best where both parties have more members of the smaller wing. Perhaps slightly more cross party voting.", ">\n\nThe effect of 3rd parties still can't be underrated. One thing that it (theoretically) forces is the major 2 parties being made to adopt policy changes in reaction to popularity rising for a specific 3rd party. This means that there needs to be more common ground and collaboration in politics than the extremist views that the US has all too often.", ">\n\nGood! This is a big step to ending the two party stranglehold", ">\n\nI wish California would adopt Alaska's approach rather than it's 1st in the nation, so head well up its collective butt open primary top-2 system.\nIf there were RCV for GENERAL elections, there'd be much less need for open primaries. RCV would introduce high odds of 3rd party and independent candidates WINNING general elections when Republicans and Democrats nominate extremists, so discounting or eliminating the rationale for open primaries favoring more moderate/centrist candidates. Let parties nominate whoever they want. Let general election voters decide among them.", ">\n\nRCV doesn't increase the odds of 3rd party winning. Having a viable 3rd party that people vote for OVER the two parties increases their chance. \nRight now, the overwhelming majority of people would still vote Democrats or Republicans as their first choice which pretty much makes it's FPTP with extra steps. \nEliminating extreme candidates is definitely something RCV would do though.", ">\n\n\nRight now, the overwhelming majority of people would still vote Democrats or Republicans as their first choice which pretty much makes it's FPTP with extra steps.\n\nAgain, we're letting perfect be the enemy of good. \nYes, it is a truism that if people still vote in a RCV election like it's FPTP, it'll end up with the same results of a FPTP election. \nBut the point is that nothing will get better unless something changes. And once people have an option other that strategic voting, it can get better. And this statement: \n\nRCV doesn't increase the odds of 3rd party winning.\n\nIs just plain untrue. In a FPTP election a third party stands almost zero chance of winning due to strategic voting. You could say probably nonzero becasue it's so unlikely, in all but the smallest elections where local organization and recognition can overpower the big two names throwing money at it.", ">\n\nBut isn't trying to change an entire electoral system to get some hypothetical desired results the definition of letting perfect be the enemy of good? If that doesn't work do we move on to the next one? \nThe thing is that changing the system doesn't change how people will vote. It's a people problem, not a system problem. \n\nIs just plain untrue\n\nOnce again you're pointing out that it's not the system, it's people making strategic decisions. What changes about RCV? People will still vote strategically. Like I mentioned below, place a D or R too low, helps the people who place a D or R higher becuase that candidate could be eliminated if they aren't ranked high enough. \nA third party has just as much chance in FPTP to win as in RCV. People just don't vote for them.", ">\n\n\nBut isn't trying to change an entire electoral system to get some hypothetical desired results the definition of letting perfect be the enemy of good?\n\nNo, it's not. I'm not sure how to say it's not other than to point out that I wouldn't advocate for what you are saying, \"a wholesale change.\" It's not a wholesale change, it's incremental from region to region, state to state, county to county even. It's a campaign for evolutionary change, not \"changing the whole system overnight.\" \nAnd besides that, RCV is probably not the best alternative voting method, it's just better than first past the post. The sooner we move past \"which alternative voting method is best\"-paralysis to \"why not start with any better one at any level,\" the better. America could use every alternative voting method in a mix from RCV to STV to multi member elections/districts, etc... and it would be better than anywhere right now using single member, first past the post systems. It's the worst style of voting over time for anything with higher stakes than \"where are we going to lunch.\"\nBesides, you are literally arguing against proof that has already notably surfaced in Alaska's house election the past two cycles there as to how a better representative candidate can succeed in ranked choice voting. \nBut wait! (you might say) Democrats aren't a third party! So that's wrong!\nThe idea behind ranked choice voting is that it will drive a better consensus candidate that everyone can live with. If that means it's a third party in a purple district that people can vote for without fear of throwing their vote away who wins the first party ballot, or eventually against other round candidates, then great! In Alaska, the best consensus candidate was Peltola, who happens to be a democrat. What we got there was in effect a third party (MAGA/Palin) driving people towards a saner alternative that best represents them. The system still worked becasue the third party sucked!", ">\n\nAlaska still has a Republican in office. Despite their being multiple third party candidates. Matter of fact, RCV around the world hasn't produced any major third party. Because RCV doesn't change why people vote, it just changes how they vote. \nAt the end of the day, we can have any given system, but if people still prefer the two parties that's what we will get. \nIf you want a third party, let's start with having a viable third party first.\nChanging an entire system, incrementally or not, isn't going to make the two parties disappear, or magically introduce a viable alternative.\nAll of this to say, your example is exactly why RCV is a long winded solution that does nothing at all.", ">\n\nRCV helps a little because 3rd parties are sabotaged by the 2 main parties when even getting on the ballot. Recent example is the Green party in the NC senate race. Dems on the elections board kicked them off the ballot just because. They had to get reinstated via the courts. That wastes time and limited campaign funds. \nWith RCV there is less incentive for the main parties to sabotage 3rd party spoilers for their own side. \nThey likely won't win more than once in a blue moon. \nThe real goal in my mind is to help tamp down extremism a bit and hopefully switch to multi member districts for legislative elections. That then creates the conditions for the 2 parties to split at least in some localities. Also 3rd parties can win the odd seat since the district will be larger and in some places there are enough voters who could vote for them once they realize they stand a chance. \nFailing that they can push issues to be co-opted by the 2 main candidates.", ">\n\nGood. Maybe we'll actually start to break the two party dynamic that has stymied change in this nation.", ">\n\nSeems less likely to challenge the two party dynamic and more likely to just force candidates of both parties more to the center", ">\n\nUnder that interpretation, RCV would make things worse, so I sure hope not.", ">\n\nExcept there really isn't A single center. There are lots of dimensions that get oversimplified into R vs D, so there are many different kinds of centers (or edges) that can start to gain support and we might be able to better improve the amount of consensus we can arrive at. At least in theory" ]

[ "Hopefully the dem control in Mi means they will implement it here", ">\n\nI'm in favor!", ">\n\nIf in favor does not win, what is your second choice?", ">\n\nWe already have open primaries (no need to register with a party) so either keep it that way or move to top 2/top 3 primary win system similar to California", ">\n\nI think they were making a ranked choice vote joke lol “If not, what’s your second favorite?”", ">\n\n🤷‍♂️ I can whiff on a joke with a real answer and look like a since. Won't be the first time", ">\n\nImagine if Trump loses the GOP nomination, decides to run as an Independent, and then as a result of this so many red states decide to pass ranked choice voting.", ">\n\nIf the GOP irreparably fractures and passes RCV federally in a panic because of Trump, then he’ll have unintentionally had one of the most positive impacts on American politics in history.", ">\n\nIt really well could destroy the 2 party system that we have, because lets say the the old school and new school Republicans decide to split. If the Dems get supermajorities in congress then everyone should pay very close attention to the relationship between moderate and progressive Democrats. Either progressives get enough concessions or we then get a 4 party system, or maybe even beyond that depending on what happens with current minor parties. \nAnd to think this could all happen because of fucking Trump of all people. Weird.", ">\n\nRCV won't destroy the 2 party system. AUS uses it for their lower chamber and 10% of seats are won by 3rd parties. 10% for the US would be amazing. AUS's lower chamber is still a 2 party system. \nTheir upper chamber pairs it with multimember districts with 20% of seats won by 3rd parties and it is a multiparty system.\nI do not see democrats getting a supermajority anymore than now. It probably just leads to a few more moderates being elected. Perhaps you'd get a few more progressive democrats winning by virtue of them getting to the general.\nI think it probably reverts to the informal 4 party system of previous decades at best where both parties have more members of the smaller wing. Perhaps slightly more cross party voting.", ">\n\nThe effect of 3rd parties still can't be underrated. One thing that it (theoretically) forces is the major 2 parties being made to adopt policy changes in reaction to popularity rising for a specific 3rd party. This means that there needs to be more common ground and collaboration in politics than the extremist views that the US has all too often.", ">\n\nGood! This is a big step to ending the two party stranglehold", ">\n\nI wish California would adopt Alaska's approach rather than it's 1st in the nation, so head well up its collective butt open primary top-2 system.\nIf there were RCV for GENERAL elections, there'd be much less need for open primaries. RCV would introduce high odds of 3rd party and independent candidates WINNING general elections when Republicans and Democrats nominate extremists, so discounting or eliminating the rationale for open primaries favoring more moderate/centrist candidates. Let parties nominate whoever they want. Let general election voters decide among them.", ">\n\nRCV doesn't increase the odds of 3rd party winning. Having a viable 3rd party that people vote for OVER the two parties increases their chance. \nRight now, the overwhelming majority of people would still vote Democrats or Republicans as their first choice which pretty much makes it's FPTP with extra steps. \nEliminating extreme candidates is definitely something RCV would do though.", ">\n\n\nRight now, the overwhelming majority of people would still vote Democrats or Republicans as their first choice which pretty much makes it's FPTP with extra steps.\n\nAgain, we're letting perfect be the enemy of good. \nYes, it is a truism that if people still vote in a RCV election like it's FPTP, it'll end up with the same results of a FPTP election. \nBut the point is that nothing will get better unless something changes. And once people have an option other that strategic voting, it can get better. And this statement: \n\nRCV doesn't increase the odds of 3rd party winning.\n\nIs just plain untrue. In a FPTP election a third party stands almost zero chance of winning due to strategic voting. You could say probably nonzero becasue it's so unlikely, in all but the smallest elections where local organization and recognition can overpower the big two names throwing money at it.", ">\n\nBut isn't trying to change an entire electoral system to get some hypothetical desired results the definition of letting perfect be the enemy of good? If that doesn't work do we move on to the next one? \nThe thing is that changing the system doesn't change how people will vote. It's a people problem, not a system problem. \n\nIs just plain untrue\n\nOnce again you're pointing out that it's not the system, it's people making strategic decisions. What changes about RCV? People will still vote strategically. Like I mentioned below, place a D or R too low, helps the people who place a D or R higher becuase that candidate could be eliminated if they aren't ranked high enough. \nA third party has just as much chance in FPTP to win as in RCV. People just don't vote for them.", ">\n\n\nBut isn't trying to change an entire electoral system to get some hypothetical desired results the definition of letting perfect be the enemy of good?\n\nNo, it's not. I'm not sure how to say it's not other than to point out that I wouldn't advocate for what you are saying, \"a wholesale change.\" It's not a wholesale change, it's incremental from region to region, state to state, county to county even. It's a campaign for evolutionary change, not \"changing the whole system overnight.\" \nAnd besides that, RCV is probably not the best alternative voting method, it's just better than first past the post. The sooner we move past \"which alternative voting method is best\"-paralysis to \"why not start with any better one at any level,\" the better. America could use every alternative voting method in a mix from RCV to STV to multi member elections/districts, etc... and it would be better than anywhere right now using single member, first past the post systems. It's the worst style of voting over time for anything with higher stakes than \"where are we going to lunch.\"\nBesides, you are literally arguing against proof that has already notably surfaced in Alaska's house election the past two cycles there as to how a better representative candidate can succeed in ranked choice voting. \nBut wait! (you might say) Democrats aren't a third party! So that's wrong!\nThe idea behind ranked choice voting is that it will drive a better consensus candidate that everyone can live with. If that means it's a third party in a purple district that people can vote for without fear of throwing their vote away who wins the first party ballot, or eventually against other round candidates, then great! In Alaska, the best consensus candidate was Peltola, who happens to be a democrat. What we got there was in effect a third party (MAGA/Palin) driving people towards a saner alternative that best represents them. The system still worked becasue the third party sucked!", ">\n\nAlaska still has a Republican in office. Despite their being multiple third party candidates. Matter of fact, RCV around the world hasn't produced any major third party. Because RCV doesn't change why people vote, it just changes how they vote. \nAt the end of the day, we can have any given system, but if people still prefer the two parties that's what we will get. \nIf you want a third party, let's start with having a viable third party first.\nChanging an entire system, incrementally or not, isn't going to make the two parties disappear, or magically introduce a viable alternative.\nAll of this to say, your example is exactly why RCV is a long winded solution that does nothing at all.", ">\n\nRCV helps a little because 3rd parties are sabotaged by the 2 main parties when even getting on the ballot. Recent example is the Green party in the NC senate race. Dems on the elections board kicked them off the ballot just because. They had to get reinstated via the courts. That wastes time and limited campaign funds. \nWith RCV there is less incentive for the main parties to sabotage 3rd party spoilers for their own side. \nThey likely won't win more than once in a blue moon. \nThe real goal in my mind is to help tamp down extremism a bit and hopefully switch to multi member districts for legislative elections. That then creates the conditions for the 2 parties to split at least in some localities. Also 3rd parties can win the odd seat since the district will be larger and in some places there are enough voters who could vote for them once they realize they stand a chance. \nFailing that they can push issues to be co-opted by the 2 main candidates.", ">\n\nGood. Maybe we'll actually start to break the two party dynamic that has stymied change in this nation.", ">\n\nSeems less likely to challenge the two party dynamic and more likely to just force candidates of both parties more to the center", ">\n\nUnder that interpretation, RCV would make things worse, so I sure hope not.", ">\n\nExcept there really isn't A single center. There are lots of dimensions that get oversimplified into R vs D, so there are many different kinds of centers (or edges) that can start to gain support and we might be able to better improve the amount of consensus we can arrive at. At least in theory", ">\n\nI could see it initially going more \"center\" and then branching out from there." ]

[ "Hopefully the dem control in Mi means they will implement it here", ">\n\nI'm in favor!", ">\n\nIf in favor does not win, what is your second choice?", ">\n\nWe already have open primaries (no need to register with a party) so either keep it that way or move to top 2/top 3 primary win system similar to California", ">\n\nI think they were making a ranked choice vote joke lol “If not, what’s your second favorite?”", ">\n\n🤷‍♂️ I can whiff on a joke with a real answer and look like a since. Won't be the first time", ">\n\nImagine if Trump loses the GOP nomination, decides to run as an Independent, and then as a result of this so many red states decide to pass ranked choice voting.", ">\n\nIf the GOP irreparably fractures and passes RCV federally in a panic because of Trump, then he’ll have unintentionally had one of the most positive impacts on American politics in history.", ">\n\nIt really well could destroy the 2 party system that we have, because lets say the the old school and new school Republicans decide to split. If the Dems get supermajorities in congress then everyone should pay very close attention to the relationship between moderate and progressive Democrats. Either progressives get enough concessions or we then get a 4 party system, or maybe even beyond that depending on what happens with current minor parties. \nAnd to think this could all happen because of fucking Trump of all people. Weird.", ">\n\nRCV won't destroy the 2 party system. AUS uses it for their lower chamber and 10% of seats are won by 3rd parties. 10% for the US would be amazing. AUS's lower chamber is still a 2 party system. \nTheir upper chamber pairs it with multimember districts with 20% of seats won by 3rd parties and it is a multiparty system.\nI do not see democrats getting a supermajority anymore than now. It probably just leads to a few more moderates being elected. Perhaps you'd get a few more progressive democrats winning by virtue of them getting to the general.\nI think it probably reverts to the informal 4 party system of previous decades at best where both parties have more members of the smaller wing. Perhaps slightly more cross party voting.", ">\n\nThe effect of 3rd parties still can't be underrated. One thing that it (theoretically) forces is the major 2 parties being made to adopt policy changes in reaction to popularity rising for a specific 3rd party. This means that there needs to be more common ground and collaboration in politics than the extremist views that the US has all too often.", ">\n\nGood! This is a big step to ending the two party stranglehold", ">\n\nI wish California would adopt Alaska's approach rather than it's 1st in the nation, so head well up its collective butt open primary top-2 system.\nIf there were RCV for GENERAL elections, there'd be much less need for open primaries. RCV would introduce high odds of 3rd party and independent candidates WINNING general elections when Republicans and Democrats nominate extremists, so discounting or eliminating the rationale for open primaries favoring more moderate/centrist candidates. Let parties nominate whoever they want. Let general election voters decide among them.", ">\n\nRCV doesn't increase the odds of 3rd party winning. Having a viable 3rd party that people vote for OVER the two parties increases their chance. \nRight now, the overwhelming majority of people would still vote Democrats or Republicans as their first choice which pretty much makes it's FPTP with extra steps. \nEliminating extreme candidates is definitely something RCV would do though.", ">\n\n\nRight now, the overwhelming majority of people would still vote Democrats or Republicans as their first choice which pretty much makes it's FPTP with extra steps.\n\nAgain, we're letting perfect be the enemy of good. \nYes, it is a truism that if people still vote in a RCV election like it's FPTP, it'll end up with the same results of a FPTP election. \nBut the point is that nothing will get better unless something changes. And once people have an option other that strategic voting, it can get better. And this statement: \n\nRCV doesn't increase the odds of 3rd party winning.\n\nIs just plain untrue. In a FPTP election a third party stands almost zero chance of winning due to strategic voting. You could say probably nonzero becasue it's so unlikely, in all but the smallest elections where local organization and recognition can overpower the big two names throwing money at it.", ">\n\nBut isn't trying to change an entire electoral system to get some hypothetical desired results the definition of letting perfect be the enemy of good? If that doesn't work do we move on to the next one? \nThe thing is that changing the system doesn't change how people will vote. It's a people problem, not a system problem. \n\nIs just plain untrue\n\nOnce again you're pointing out that it's not the system, it's people making strategic decisions. What changes about RCV? People will still vote strategically. Like I mentioned below, place a D or R too low, helps the people who place a D or R higher becuase that candidate could be eliminated if they aren't ranked high enough. \nA third party has just as much chance in FPTP to win as in RCV. People just don't vote for them.", ">\n\n\nBut isn't trying to change an entire electoral system to get some hypothetical desired results the definition of letting perfect be the enemy of good?\n\nNo, it's not. I'm not sure how to say it's not other than to point out that I wouldn't advocate for what you are saying, \"a wholesale change.\" It's not a wholesale change, it's incremental from region to region, state to state, county to county even. It's a campaign for evolutionary change, not \"changing the whole system overnight.\" \nAnd besides that, RCV is probably not the best alternative voting method, it's just better than first past the post. The sooner we move past \"which alternative voting method is best\"-paralysis to \"why not start with any better one at any level,\" the better. America could use every alternative voting method in a mix from RCV to STV to multi member elections/districts, etc... and it would be better than anywhere right now using single member, first past the post systems. It's the worst style of voting over time for anything with higher stakes than \"where are we going to lunch.\"\nBesides, you are literally arguing against proof that has already notably surfaced in Alaska's house election the past two cycles there as to how a better representative candidate can succeed in ranked choice voting. \nBut wait! (you might say) Democrats aren't a third party! So that's wrong!\nThe idea behind ranked choice voting is that it will drive a better consensus candidate that everyone can live with. If that means it's a third party in a purple district that people can vote for without fear of throwing their vote away who wins the first party ballot, or eventually against other round candidates, then great! In Alaska, the best consensus candidate was Peltola, who happens to be a democrat. What we got there was in effect a third party (MAGA/Palin) driving people towards a saner alternative that best represents them. The system still worked becasue the third party sucked!", ">\n\nAlaska still has a Republican in office. Despite their being multiple third party candidates. Matter of fact, RCV around the world hasn't produced any major third party. Because RCV doesn't change why people vote, it just changes how they vote. \nAt the end of the day, we can have any given system, but if people still prefer the two parties that's what we will get. \nIf you want a third party, let's start with having a viable third party first.\nChanging an entire system, incrementally or not, isn't going to make the two parties disappear, or magically introduce a viable alternative.\nAll of this to say, your example is exactly why RCV is a long winded solution that does nothing at all.", ">\n\nRCV helps a little because 3rd parties are sabotaged by the 2 main parties when even getting on the ballot. Recent example is the Green party in the NC senate race. Dems on the elections board kicked them off the ballot just because. They had to get reinstated via the courts. That wastes time and limited campaign funds. \nWith RCV there is less incentive for the main parties to sabotage 3rd party spoilers for their own side. \nThey likely won't win more than once in a blue moon. \nThe real goal in my mind is to help tamp down extremism a bit and hopefully switch to multi member districts for legislative elections. That then creates the conditions for the 2 parties to split at least in some localities. Also 3rd parties can win the odd seat since the district will be larger and in some places there are enough voters who could vote for them once they realize they stand a chance. \nFailing that they can push issues to be co-opted by the 2 main candidates.", ">\n\nGood. Maybe we'll actually start to break the two party dynamic that has stymied change in this nation.", ">\n\nSeems less likely to challenge the two party dynamic and more likely to just force candidates of both parties more to the center", ">\n\nUnder that interpretation, RCV would make things worse, so I sure hope not.", ">\n\nExcept there really isn't A single center. There are lots of dimensions that get oversimplified into R vs D, so there are many different kinds of centers (or edges) that can start to gain support and we might be able to better improve the amount of consensus we can arrive at. At least in theory", ">\n\nI could see it initially going more \"center\" and then branching out from there.", ">\n\nExactly, it would probably go center for things that have a near consensus like common sense abortion access and gun laws. The drug war and military spending are areas that would probably see some shift, where both parties tend to agree against a majority of the population." ]

[ "Hopefully the dem control in Mi means they will implement it here", ">\n\nI'm in favor!", ">\n\nIf in favor does not win, what is your second choice?", ">\n\nWe already have open primaries (no need to register with a party) so either keep it that way or move to top 2/top 3 primary win system similar to California", ">\n\nI think they were making a ranked choice vote joke lol “If not, what’s your second favorite?”", ">\n\n🤷‍♂️ I can whiff on a joke with a real answer and look like a since. Won't be the first time", ">\n\nImagine if Trump loses the GOP nomination, decides to run as an Independent, and then as a result of this so many red states decide to pass ranked choice voting.", ">\n\nIf the GOP irreparably fractures and passes RCV federally in a panic because of Trump, then he’ll have unintentionally had one of the most positive impacts on American politics in history.", ">\n\nIt really well could destroy the 2 party system that we have, because lets say the the old school and new school Republicans decide to split. If the Dems get supermajorities in congress then everyone should pay very close attention to the relationship between moderate and progressive Democrats. Either progressives get enough concessions or we then get a 4 party system, or maybe even beyond that depending on what happens with current minor parties. \nAnd to think this could all happen because of fucking Trump of all people. Weird.", ">\n\nRCV won't destroy the 2 party system. AUS uses it for their lower chamber and 10% of seats are won by 3rd parties. 10% for the US would be amazing. AUS's lower chamber is still a 2 party system. \nTheir upper chamber pairs it with multimember districts with 20% of seats won by 3rd parties and it is a multiparty system.\nI do not see democrats getting a supermajority anymore than now. It probably just leads to a few more moderates being elected. Perhaps you'd get a few more progressive democrats winning by virtue of them getting to the general.\nI think it probably reverts to the informal 4 party system of previous decades at best where both parties have more members of the smaller wing. Perhaps slightly more cross party voting.", ">\n\nThe effect of 3rd parties still can't be underrated. One thing that it (theoretically) forces is the major 2 parties being made to adopt policy changes in reaction to popularity rising for a specific 3rd party. This means that there needs to be more common ground and collaboration in politics than the extremist views that the US has all too often.", ">\n\nGood! This is a big step to ending the two party stranglehold", ">\n\nI wish California would adopt Alaska's approach rather than it's 1st in the nation, so head well up its collective butt open primary top-2 system.\nIf there were RCV for GENERAL elections, there'd be much less need for open primaries. RCV would introduce high odds of 3rd party and independent candidates WINNING general elections when Republicans and Democrats nominate extremists, so discounting or eliminating the rationale for open primaries favoring more moderate/centrist candidates. Let parties nominate whoever they want. Let general election voters decide among them.", ">\n\nRCV doesn't increase the odds of 3rd party winning. Having a viable 3rd party that people vote for OVER the two parties increases their chance. \nRight now, the overwhelming majority of people would still vote Democrats or Republicans as their first choice which pretty much makes it's FPTP with extra steps. \nEliminating extreme candidates is definitely something RCV would do though.", ">\n\n\nRight now, the overwhelming majority of people would still vote Democrats or Republicans as their first choice which pretty much makes it's FPTP with extra steps.\n\nAgain, we're letting perfect be the enemy of good. \nYes, it is a truism that if people still vote in a RCV election like it's FPTP, it'll end up with the same results of a FPTP election. \nBut the point is that nothing will get better unless something changes. And once people have an option other that strategic voting, it can get better. And this statement: \n\nRCV doesn't increase the odds of 3rd party winning.\n\nIs just plain untrue. In a FPTP election a third party stands almost zero chance of winning due to strategic voting. You could say probably nonzero becasue it's so unlikely, in all but the smallest elections where local organization and recognition can overpower the big two names throwing money at it.", ">\n\nBut isn't trying to change an entire electoral system to get some hypothetical desired results the definition of letting perfect be the enemy of good? If that doesn't work do we move on to the next one? \nThe thing is that changing the system doesn't change how people will vote. It's a people problem, not a system problem. \n\nIs just plain untrue\n\nOnce again you're pointing out that it's not the system, it's people making strategic decisions. What changes about RCV? People will still vote strategically. Like I mentioned below, place a D or R too low, helps the people who place a D or R higher becuase that candidate could be eliminated if they aren't ranked high enough. \nA third party has just as much chance in FPTP to win as in RCV. People just don't vote for them.", ">\n\n\nBut isn't trying to change an entire electoral system to get some hypothetical desired results the definition of letting perfect be the enemy of good?\n\nNo, it's not. I'm not sure how to say it's not other than to point out that I wouldn't advocate for what you are saying, \"a wholesale change.\" It's not a wholesale change, it's incremental from region to region, state to state, county to county even. It's a campaign for evolutionary change, not \"changing the whole system overnight.\" \nAnd besides that, RCV is probably not the best alternative voting method, it's just better than first past the post. The sooner we move past \"which alternative voting method is best\"-paralysis to \"why not start with any better one at any level,\" the better. America could use every alternative voting method in a mix from RCV to STV to multi member elections/districts, etc... and it would be better than anywhere right now using single member, first past the post systems. It's the worst style of voting over time for anything with higher stakes than \"where are we going to lunch.\"\nBesides, you are literally arguing against proof that has already notably surfaced in Alaska's house election the past two cycles there as to how a better representative candidate can succeed in ranked choice voting. \nBut wait! (you might say) Democrats aren't a third party! So that's wrong!\nThe idea behind ranked choice voting is that it will drive a better consensus candidate that everyone can live with. If that means it's a third party in a purple district that people can vote for without fear of throwing their vote away who wins the first party ballot, or eventually against other round candidates, then great! In Alaska, the best consensus candidate was Peltola, who happens to be a democrat. What we got there was in effect a third party (MAGA/Palin) driving people towards a saner alternative that best represents them. The system still worked becasue the third party sucked!", ">\n\nAlaska still has a Republican in office. Despite their being multiple third party candidates. Matter of fact, RCV around the world hasn't produced any major third party. Because RCV doesn't change why people vote, it just changes how they vote. \nAt the end of the day, we can have any given system, but if people still prefer the two parties that's what we will get. \nIf you want a third party, let's start with having a viable third party first.\nChanging an entire system, incrementally or not, isn't going to make the two parties disappear, or magically introduce a viable alternative.\nAll of this to say, your example is exactly why RCV is a long winded solution that does nothing at all.", ">\n\nRCV helps a little because 3rd parties are sabotaged by the 2 main parties when even getting on the ballot. Recent example is the Green party in the NC senate race. Dems on the elections board kicked them off the ballot just because. They had to get reinstated via the courts. That wastes time and limited campaign funds. \nWith RCV there is less incentive for the main parties to sabotage 3rd party spoilers for their own side. \nThey likely won't win more than once in a blue moon. \nThe real goal in my mind is to help tamp down extremism a bit and hopefully switch to multi member districts for legislative elections. That then creates the conditions for the 2 parties to split at least in some localities. Also 3rd parties can win the odd seat since the district will be larger and in some places there are enough voters who could vote for them once they realize they stand a chance. \nFailing that they can push issues to be co-opted by the 2 main candidates.", ">\n\nGood. Maybe we'll actually start to break the two party dynamic that has stymied change in this nation.", ">\n\nSeems less likely to challenge the two party dynamic and more likely to just force candidates of both parties more to the center", ">\n\nUnder that interpretation, RCV would make things worse, so I sure hope not.", ">\n\nExcept there really isn't A single center. There are lots of dimensions that get oversimplified into R vs D, so there are many different kinds of centers (or edges) that can start to gain support and we might be able to better improve the amount of consensus we can arrive at. At least in theory", ">\n\nI could see it initially going more \"center\" and then branching out from there.", ">\n\nExactly, it would probably go center for things that have a near consensus like common sense abortion access and gun laws. The drug war and military spending are areas that would probably see some shift, where both parties tend to agree against a majority of the population.", ">\n\nWe’ve used preferential voting here in Australia for over 100 years. Anyone who thinks the American people are too stupid to understand it is kidding themselves." ]

[ "Hopefully the dem control in Mi means they will implement it here", ">\n\nI'm in favor!", ">\n\nIf in favor does not win, what is your second choice?", ">\n\nWe already have open primaries (no need to register with a party) so either keep it that way or move to top 2/top 3 primary win system similar to California", ">\n\nI think they were making a ranked choice vote joke lol “If not, what’s your second favorite?”", ">\n\n🤷‍♂️ I can whiff on a joke with a real answer and look like a since. Won't be the first time", ">\n\nImagine if Trump loses the GOP nomination, decides to run as an Independent, and then as a result of this so many red states decide to pass ranked choice voting.", ">\n\nIf the GOP irreparably fractures and passes RCV federally in a panic because of Trump, then he’ll have unintentionally had one of the most positive impacts on American politics in history.", ">\n\nIt really well could destroy the 2 party system that we have, because lets say the the old school and new school Republicans decide to split. If the Dems get supermajorities in congress then everyone should pay very close attention to the relationship between moderate and progressive Democrats. Either progressives get enough concessions or we then get a 4 party system, or maybe even beyond that depending on what happens with current minor parties. \nAnd to think this could all happen because of fucking Trump of all people. Weird.", ">\n\nRCV won't destroy the 2 party system. AUS uses it for their lower chamber and 10% of seats are won by 3rd parties. 10% for the US would be amazing. AUS's lower chamber is still a 2 party system. \nTheir upper chamber pairs it with multimember districts with 20% of seats won by 3rd parties and it is a multiparty system.\nI do not see democrats getting a supermajority anymore than now. It probably just leads to a few more moderates being elected. Perhaps you'd get a few more progressive democrats winning by virtue of them getting to the general.\nI think it probably reverts to the informal 4 party system of previous decades at best where both parties have more members of the smaller wing. Perhaps slightly more cross party voting.", ">\n\nThe effect of 3rd parties still can't be underrated. One thing that it (theoretically) forces is the major 2 parties being made to adopt policy changes in reaction to popularity rising for a specific 3rd party. This means that there needs to be more common ground and collaboration in politics than the extremist views that the US has all too often.", ">\n\nGood! This is a big step to ending the two party stranglehold", ">\n\nI wish California would adopt Alaska's approach rather than it's 1st in the nation, so head well up its collective butt open primary top-2 system.\nIf there were RCV for GENERAL elections, there'd be much less need for open primaries. RCV would introduce high odds of 3rd party and independent candidates WINNING general elections when Republicans and Democrats nominate extremists, so discounting or eliminating the rationale for open primaries favoring more moderate/centrist candidates. Let parties nominate whoever they want. Let general election voters decide among them.", ">\n\nRCV doesn't increase the odds of 3rd party winning. Having a viable 3rd party that people vote for OVER the two parties increases their chance. \nRight now, the overwhelming majority of people would still vote Democrats or Republicans as their first choice which pretty much makes it's FPTP with extra steps. \nEliminating extreme candidates is definitely something RCV would do though.", ">\n\n\nRight now, the overwhelming majority of people would still vote Democrats or Republicans as their first choice which pretty much makes it's FPTP with extra steps.\n\nAgain, we're letting perfect be the enemy of good. \nYes, it is a truism that if people still vote in a RCV election like it's FPTP, it'll end up with the same results of a FPTP election. \nBut the point is that nothing will get better unless something changes. And once people have an option other that strategic voting, it can get better. And this statement: \n\nRCV doesn't increase the odds of 3rd party winning.\n\nIs just plain untrue. In a FPTP election a third party stands almost zero chance of winning due to strategic voting. You could say probably nonzero becasue it's so unlikely, in all but the smallest elections where local organization and recognition can overpower the big two names throwing money at it.", ">\n\nBut isn't trying to change an entire electoral system to get some hypothetical desired results the definition of letting perfect be the enemy of good? If that doesn't work do we move on to the next one? \nThe thing is that changing the system doesn't change how people will vote. It's a people problem, not a system problem. \n\nIs just plain untrue\n\nOnce again you're pointing out that it's not the system, it's people making strategic decisions. What changes about RCV? People will still vote strategically. Like I mentioned below, place a D or R too low, helps the people who place a D or R higher becuase that candidate could be eliminated if they aren't ranked high enough. \nA third party has just as much chance in FPTP to win as in RCV. People just don't vote for them.", ">\n\n\nBut isn't trying to change an entire electoral system to get some hypothetical desired results the definition of letting perfect be the enemy of good?\n\nNo, it's not. I'm not sure how to say it's not other than to point out that I wouldn't advocate for what you are saying, \"a wholesale change.\" It's not a wholesale change, it's incremental from region to region, state to state, county to county even. It's a campaign for evolutionary change, not \"changing the whole system overnight.\" \nAnd besides that, RCV is probably not the best alternative voting method, it's just better than first past the post. The sooner we move past \"which alternative voting method is best\"-paralysis to \"why not start with any better one at any level,\" the better. America could use every alternative voting method in a mix from RCV to STV to multi member elections/districts, etc... and it would be better than anywhere right now using single member, first past the post systems. It's the worst style of voting over time for anything with higher stakes than \"where are we going to lunch.\"\nBesides, you are literally arguing against proof that has already notably surfaced in Alaska's house election the past two cycles there as to how a better representative candidate can succeed in ranked choice voting. \nBut wait! (you might say) Democrats aren't a third party! So that's wrong!\nThe idea behind ranked choice voting is that it will drive a better consensus candidate that everyone can live with. If that means it's a third party in a purple district that people can vote for without fear of throwing their vote away who wins the first party ballot, or eventually against other round candidates, then great! In Alaska, the best consensus candidate was Peltola, who happens to be a democrat. What we got there was in effect a third party (MAGA/Palin) driving people towards a saner alternative that best represents them. The system still worked becasue the third party sucked!", ">\n\nAlaska still has a Republican in office. Despite their being multiple third party candidates. Matter of fact, RCV around the world hasn't produced any major third party. Because RCV doesn't change why people vote, it just changes how they vote. \nAt the end of the day, we can have any given system, but if people still prefer the two parties that's what we will get. \nIf you want a third party, let's start with having a viable third party first.\nChanging an entire system, incrementally or not, isn't going to make the two parties disappear, or magically introduce a viable alternative.\nAll of this to say, your example is exactly why RCV is a long winded solution that does nothing at all.", ">\n\nRCV helps a little because 3rd parties are sabotaged by the 2 main parties when even getting on the ballot. Recent example is the Green party in the NC senate race. Dems on the elections board kicked them off the ballot just because. They had to get reinstated via the courts. That wastes time and limited campaign funds. \nWith RCV there is less incentive for the main parties to sabotage 3rd party spoilers for their own side. \nThey likely won't win more than once in a blue moon. \nThe real goal in my mind is to help tamp down extremism a bit and hopefully switch to multi member districts for legislative elections. That then creates the conditions for the 2 parties to split at least in some localities. Also 3rd parties can win the odd seat since the district will be larger and in some places there are enough voters who could vote for them once they realize they stand a chance. \nFailing that they can push issues to be co-opted by the 2 main candidates.", ">\n\nGood. Maybe we'll actually start to break the two party dynamic that has stymied change in this nation.", ">\n\nSeems less likely to challenge the two party dynamic and more likely to just force candidates of both parties more to the center", ">\n\nUnder that interpretation, RCV would make things worse, so I sure hope not.", ">\n\nExcept there really isn't A single center. There are lots of dimensions that get oversimplified into R vs D, so there are many different kinds of centers (or edges) that can start to gain support and we might be able to better improve the amount of consensus we can arrive at. At least in theory", ">\n\nI could see it initially going more \"center\" and then branching out from there.", ">\n\nExactly, it would probably go center for things that have a near consensus like common sense abortion access and gun laws. The drug war and military spending are areas that would probably see some shift, where both parties tend to agree against a majority of the population.", ">\n\nWe’ve used preferential voting here in Australia for over 100 years. Anyone who thinks the American people are too stupid to understand it is kidding themselves.", ">\n\nThere'll be hysteria in the US. To think otherwise is kidding ourselves. It will die down though as it will be overblown crap based on some dumb people. The magic of RCV is that people can still just vote for one candidate.\nWe got STV for local elections here in the mid 2000s. Only half the people ranked but now around 60-70% are ranking. So it can take time to get used to it no matter how simple it is. We also use different systems for different elections so that can cause a bit of confusion." ]

[ "Hopefully the dem control in Mi means they will implement it here", ">\n\nI'm in favor!", ">\n\nIf in favor does not win, what is your second choice?", ">\n\nWe already have open primaries (no need to register with a party) so either keep it that way or move to top 2/top 3 primary win system similar to California", ">\n\nI think they were making a ranked choice vote joke lol “If not, what’s your second favorite?”", ">\n\n🤷‍♂️ I can whiff on a joke with a real answer and look like a since. Won't be the first time", ">\n\nImagine if Trump loses the GOP nomination, decides to run as an Independent, and then as a result of this so many red states decide to pass ranked choice voting.", ">\n\nIf the GOP irreparably fractures and passes RCV federally in a panic because of Trump, then he’ll have unintentionally had one of the most positive impacts on American politics in history.", ">\n\nIt really well could destroy the 2 party system that we have, because lets say the the old school and new school Republicans decide to split. If the Dems get supermajorities in congress then everyone should pay very close attention to the relationship between moderate and progressive Democrats. Either progressives get enough concessions or we then get a 4 party system, or maybe even beyond that depending on what happens with current minor parties. \nAnd to think this could all happen because of fucking Trump of all people. Weird.", ">\n\nRCV won't destroy the 2 party system. AUS uses it for their lower chamber and 10% of seats are won by 3rd parties. 10% for the US would be amazing. AUS's lower chamber is still a 2 party system. \nTheir upper chamber pairs it with multimember districts with 20% of seats won by 3rd parties and it is a multiparty system.\nI do not see democrats getting a supermajority anymore than now. It probably just leads to a few more moderates being elected. Perhaps you'd get a few more progressive democrats winning by virtue of them getting to the general.\nI think it probably reverts to the informal 4 party system of previous decades at best where both parties have more members of the smaller wing. Perhaps slightly more cross party voting.", ">\n\nThe effect of 3rd parties still can't be underrated. One thing that it (theoretically) forces is the major 2 parties being made to adopt policy changes in reaction to popularity rising for a specific 3rd party. This means that there needs to be more common ground and collaboration in politics than the extremist views that the US has all too often.", ">\n\nGood! This is a big step to ending the two party stranglehold", ">\n\nI wish California would adopt Alaska's approach rather than it's 1st in the nation, so head well up its collective butt open primary top-2 system.\nIf there were RCV for GENERAL elections, there'd be much less need for open primaries. RCV would introduce high odds of 3rd party and independent candidates WINNING general elections when Republicans and Democrats nominate extremists, so discounting or eliminating the rationale for open primaries favoring more moderate/centrist candidates. Let parties nominate whoever they want. Let general election voters decide among them.", ">\n\nRCV doesn't increase the odds of 3rd party winning. Having a viable 3rd party that people vote for OVER the two parties increases their chance. \nRight now, the overwhelming majority of people would still vote Democrats or Republicans as their first choice which pretty much makes it's FPTP with extra steps. \nEliminating extreme candidates is definitely something RCV would do though.", ">\n\n\nRight now, the overwhelming majority of people would still vote Democrats or Republicans as their first choice which pretty much makes it's FPTP with extra steps.\n\nAgain, we're letting perfect be the enemy of good. \nYes, it is a truism that if people still vote in a RCV election like it's FPTP, it'll end up with the same results of a FPTP election. \nBut the point is that nothing will get better unless something changes. And once people have an option other that strategic voting, it can get better. And this statement: \n\nRCV doesn't increase the odds of 3rd party winning.\n\nIs just plain untrue. In a FPTP election a third party stands almost zero chance of winning due to strategic voting. You could say probably nonzero becasue it's so unlikely, in all but the smallest elections where local organization and recognition can overpower the big two names throwing money at it.", ">\n\nBut isn't trying to change an entire electoral system to get some hypothetical desired results the definition of letting perfect be the enemy of good? If that doesn't work do we move on to the next one? \nThe thing is that changing the system doesn't change how people will vote. It's a people problem, not a system problem. \n\nIs just plain untrue\n\nOnce again you're pointing out that it's not the system, it's people making strategic decisions. What changes about RCV? People will still vote strategically. Like I mentioned below, place a D or R too low, helps the people who place a D or R higher becuase that candidate could be eliminated if they aren't ranked high enough. \nA third party has just as much chance in FPTP to win as in RCV. People just don't vote for them.", ">\n\n\nBut isn't trying to change an entire electoral system to get some hypothetical desired results the definition of letting perfect be the enemy of good?\n\nNo, it's not. I'm not sure how to say it's not other than to point out that I wouldn't advocate for what you are saying, \"a wholesale change.\" It's not a wholesale change, it's incremental from region to region, state to state, county to county even. It's a campaign for evolutionary change, not \"changing the whole system overnight.\" \nAnd besides that, RCV is probably not the best alternative voting method, it's just better than first past the post. The sooner we move past \"which alternative voting method is best\"-paralysis to \"why not start with any better one at any level,\" the better. America could use every alternative voting method in a mix from RCV to STV to multi member elections/districts, etc... and it would be better than anywhere right now using single member, first past the post systems. It's the worst style of voting over time for anything with higher stakes than \"where are we going to lunch.\"\nBesides, you are literally arguing against proof that has already notably surfaced in Alaska's house election the past two cycles there as to how a better representative candidate can succeed in ranked choice voting. \nBut wait! (you might say) Democrats aren't a third party! So that's wrong!\nThe idea behind ranked choice voting is that it will drive a better consensus candidate that everyone can live with. If that means it's a third party in a purple district that people can vote for without fear of throwing their vote away who wins the first party ballot, or eventually against other round candidates, then great! In Alaska, the best consensus candidate was Peltola, who happens to be a democrat. What we got there was in effect a third party (MAGA/Palin) driving people towards a saner alternative that best represents them. The system still worked becasue the third party sucked!", ">\n\nAlaska still has a Republican in office. Despite their being multiple third party candidates. Matter of fact, RCV around the world hasn't produced any major third party. Because RCV doesn't change why people vote, it just changes how they vote. \nAt the end of the day, we can have any given system, but if people still prefer the two parties that's what we will get. \nIf you want a third party, let's start with having a viable third party first.\nChanging an entire system, incrementally or not, isn't going to make the two parties disappear, or magically introduce a viable alternative.\nAll of this to say, your example is exactly why RCV is a long winded solution that does nothing at all.", ">\n\nRCV helps a little because 3rd parties are sabotaged by the 2 main parties when even getting on the ballot. Recent example is the Green party in the NC senate race. Dems on the elections board kicked them off the ballot just because. They had to get reinstated via the courts. That wastes time and limited campaign funds. \nWith RCV there is less incentive for the main parties to sabotage 3rd party spoilers for their own side. \nThey likely won't win more than once in a blue moon. \nThe real goal in my mind is to help tamp down extremism a bit and hopefully switch to multi member districts for legislative elections. That then creates the conditions for the 2 parties to split at least in some localities. Also 3rd parties can win the odd seat since the district will be larger and in some places there are enough voters who could vote for them once they realize they stand a chance. \nFailing that they can push issues to be co-opted by the 2 main candidates.", ">\n\nGood. Maybe we'll actually start to break the two party dynamic that has stymied change in this nation.", ">\n\nSeems less likely to challenge the two party dynamic and more likely to just force candidates of both parties more to the center", ">\n\nUnder that interpretation, RCV would make things worse, so I sure hope not.", ">\n\nExcept there really isn't A single center. There are lots of dimensions that get oversimplified into R vs D, so there are many different kinds of centers (or edges) that can start to gain support and we might be able to better improve the amount of consensus we can arrive at. At least in theory", ">\n\nI could see it initially going more \"center\" and then branching out from there.", ">\n\nExactly, it would probably go center for things that have a near consensus like common sense abortion access and gun laws. The drug war and military spending are areas that would probably see some shift, where both parties tend to agree against a majority of the population.", ">\n\nWe’ve used preferential voting here in Australia for over 100 years. Anyone who thinks the American people are too stupid to understand it is kidding themselves.", ">\n\nThere'll be hysteria in the US. To think otherwise is kidding ourselves. It will die down though as it will be overblown crap based on some dumb people. The magic of RCV is that people can still just vote for one candidate.\nWe got STV for local elections here in the mid 2000s. Only half the people ranked but now around 60-70% are ranking. So it can take time to get used to it no matter how simple it is. We also use different systems for different elections so that can cause a bit of confusion.", ">\n\nYay ranked choice and based on the article even some red states are jumping in to the party.\nRanked choice voting will do so much to save this country." ]