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   Games not properly tagged. Poll | F95zone
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              Games not properly tagged. Poll
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                <time class="u-dt" data-date-string="Jun 29, 2018" data-time="1530207858" data-time-string="1:44 AM" datetime="2018-06-29T01:44:18+0800" dir="auto" title="Jun 29, 2018 at 1:44 AM">
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                     There have been many games lately that have employed the "Bait and Switch" tactic of tagging a game improperly with one genre then switching to another unpopular genre at a later date after gathering a fanbase of unsupecting followers creating conflict in the forum. Anyone believing this is an issue or is not an issue please vote or and/or leave your comments.
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                     The problem I most see is that tags are placed but the content is not done by the MC or says it will come later.
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                     IE: Pregnancy, some games show it but the MC never gets to do it for it is part of the pre-game story.
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                     Some list it as a genre/tag that may or may not come in later builds.
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                     F95 tags are made by users, if your problem is with them, the best you can do is work to tag the games better.
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                     If you're talking about games changing as the project moves along, it's natural, people, developers and projects change. Always. I don't think it's a problem because so far I have absolutely no game that changed in a way that made me dislike what made the game great in first place, in fact my biggest complaint as far, as development direction goes, is when the devs just keep doing the game stuff again and again.
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                     With the sheer endless amounts of games in development I see it quite difficult to tag everything correctly, especially since the tagging does not always come from the developer.
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                     Some games might have different genres only later on. See corruption games for example, people might like the initial content seen, but as soon as the game is developed further im pretty sure there are people turned off by things introduced later. That would require the developer tagging games, and updating them, and then add in the factor that not even those might exactly know how its all planned out, especially with games taking years to finish. Or they might even want to make something not known beforehand, sometimes stories are meant to shock/surprise the audience.
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                     I have also seen games tagged with something that is not found in the current game yet, it was tagged because someone heard the developer saying it would appear in the future.
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                     So my opinion is that I dont think theres a way to please everyone, and would say its not a huge problem.
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                     Tags are suppose to be only what is in the game at the time it is uploaded and will change/added to when new uploads come out.
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                     If pregnancy is a plan option it should not be listed in the
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                     section if it is not in the game yet, but it can be listed in the genre spoiler for planed content.
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                     If games change from what it was going to be by what was listed then it should be stated as such in the 1st post when the changes are being put it.
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                     Bait and switch is one thing, adding more content later on is another.
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                        With the sheer endless amounts of games in development I see it quite difficult to tag everything correctly, especially since the tagging does not always come from the developer.
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                     ALL the ones in my experiences the dev was active in the threads.
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                  <div class="message-userContent lbContainer js-lbContainer" data-lb-caption-desc="redknight00 · Jun 29, 2018 at 2:01 AM" data-lb-id="post-868604">
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                        I think the ones who voted yes have been baited as I have.
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                     For the sake of the discussion (and since I never felt missled) what games made you feel that way?
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                     I wouldn't want to call ppl out like
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                     they are among the many that have used the "Bait and Switch" tactic.
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                     Being fairly new, I don't have much weight with my opinions but I think the simplest thing would be to not tag a game with content that's not in the release. If I download a game that has an "Anal" tag and there isn't any anal in the current version, I feel that the game is inappropriately tagged.
                     <br/>
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                     Also, I think we should have tags for optional content. For example, in almost every thread, I see a post along the lines of "Is the foot fetish/NTR/beastiality avoidable?" after seeing the tag. Maybe add tags such as "Feet (Optional)" for all genres would help with that.
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                     Also, maybe color code tags (is that possible) based on the amount of said genre in the game? Let's say there's a game with 20 sex scenes. 18 of them have vaginal, 10 of them have anal and 3 of them are gangbang scenes. Maybe we could color code those tags so that "Vaginal" is green since they account for more than half, "Anal" is yellow since they account for about half and "Gangbang" would be red since they account for less than a third.
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                     Lover of VNs with a story. Especially with the "Romance" tag.
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                     There's another one I could mention that has a pregnancy tag and there's not even sex involved so I have no idea how anyone could get pregnant, lol I think it's on the 3rd or 4th release too.
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                     Does the populous care to learn the many factions of the ntr genre or just lump them all under the ntr tag?
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                     so far 17 to 7,  71% think it's at least somewhat a problem and it's very early in the polling.
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                     If one dev is cheating followers we must denunce, but I see moderators in all games so They can ban  or advice them
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                     I mean you are kind of making a big assumption that it is malicious. It is very possible that a dev can evolve their story or make changes to fit a growing audience.
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                     Things like that are alright.
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                     All the Dev, need respect the right for the players that pay or even those that give name for a game, if the Dev don't put a genre in the beginning of the game, He need at least see if the Patrons and players want to see a new genre, this is a smart way for do a game
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                        I mean you are kind of making a big assumption that it is malicious. It is very possible that a dev can evolve their story or make changes to fit a growing audience.
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                        Things like that are alright.
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                     It's no longer an assumption if several developers are employing the same "Bait and Switch" tactic while using the same popular genre to draw in the audience then switching to the same unpopular genre, then it is a known tactic.
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                     There is no NTR in My Sister My Roommate.
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                     What we have are a collection of numpty's that can't get it in their heads that the sister isn't a romantic interest.
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                     NTR can't exist where a romantic relationship doesn't exist.
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                     That isn't improper tagging or bait and switch.
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                        pystudios said:
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                        I wouldn't want to call ppl out like
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                        they are among the many that have used the "Bait and Switch" tactic.
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                     Those have been purged and no longer can be seen.
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                     I Have seen many games whith big tits chars and no big tits tag but I have not felt cheated . Most devs don't know english, others don't know How this forum works. I can't asume they are cheating me on purpose.
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                        I've stayed quiet about this "controversy" because I (1) don't want to get into an online pissing match and (2) I don't want to give too much of what I'm planning away. HOWEVER, I do feel compelled to respond and put this issue to rest because it seems like a lot of people are getting the wrong idea. Your comment is simply not true. The main mission is NOT to win over the sister. I thought this was pretty clear about this with the dialog, but apparently some people missed this. So I want to repeat it: The main mission is not to win Nikki and never has been. Nikki will help Taylor get out of his shell. Nikki is a catalyst for the story, NOT the main story or end goal. They will have their fun together, but this is not a remake of Dreaming of Dana. I'm trying to make something that's a little bit different.
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                     That was from the dev on October of last year when the game launched.
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                     The reason posts were deleted is because it keeps getting brought up long after the situation has been clarified.
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                     What YOU think is NTR is not the actual definition so it needs no tag.
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                     I see this wasn't really about tag usage and more of a personal crusade for things that happened in OPs history here.
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                     While it's annoying I didn't look into it before commenting, my opinion still stands in regards to tag usage on the first page.
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                     What a mess this thread became... But w/e.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     Is it a problem? Yes.
                     <br/>
                     Is it because of the users? Yes.
                     <br/>
                     Is it because of the developers? Yes.
                     <br/>
                     Is it because of other reasons? Yes.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     We'd like to move onto community based voting for tags, but it's impossible atm. At this time with our system we can't require uploaders to play games from start to finish to verify if the fetishes listed on a developer page (or wherever the info can be obtained) are all implemented. So at the moment we have to base ourselves on what the info we can find (wherever that might be). As uploaders play the game, they can and often do, remove / add tags. The same can be said for the community where members @ mods / staff / uploaders to add tags that might be missing.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     The tagging system will never be perfect. This is the part where I add a but after that sentence, except there is no but. Often there are discussions if a game has X genre or if it doesn't. We will always try to get the best tags out on the threads, but keep in mind that it's not easy, if it were we would have done so by now.
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                  <div class="message-userContent lbContainer js-lbContainer" data-lb-caption-desc="anne O'nymous · Jul 1, 2018 at 6:50 AM" data-lb-id="post-874635">
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                        NTR can't exist where a romantic relationship doesn't exist.
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                     I'll add (for the same game with many hopes in mind): Or haven't started yet.
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                     Still like you said, there's people ready to complain about the missing NTR tag, and that's part of what
                     <a class="username" data-user-id="92" data-username="@TCMS" data-xf-init="member-tooltip" href="https://f95zone.to/members/92/">
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                     said just above me. There's obvious tags (futa, straight, and some other) and there's tags which are really difficult to define. This because the definition can vary because of the context, and/or because of the person which see it have his own biased definition.
                     <br/>
                     Is a brainwashed girl really submissive ? For some yes, but I'm sure that people who are dominants IRL don't always agree. Same for BDSM, is some spanking enough, or does it need to go more deep ? There's even cases which are more complex than this. Almost all the games made with illusion assets have at least one pissing scene. It shouldn't be enough to be tagged as "water sport" (because it's not). But in the same time, there's people who really find this disgusting, even in a game, so the tag can be seen as necessary for those games, just because of this scene.
                     <br/>
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                     Tagging a game isn't a science, it's more an art. So, the better option is to use them as criteria for a search... then to read the comments before downloading the game. We are all supposed to be adult here after all. It's not difficult to read what other said about the tags and make its own decision.
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                        I'll add (for the same game with many hopes in mind): Or haven't started yet.
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                        ....
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                        Tagging a game isn't a science, it's more an art. So, the better option is to use them as criteria for a search... then to read the comments before downloading the game. We are all supposed to be adult here after all. It's not difficult to read what other said about the tags and make its own decision.
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                     I haven't been tricked into playing futa games or any other genre save one, but yes we should all be adults and use the tags and stop hiding behind the, "It's not exactly the definition of" excuse, that's not the case with like incest where people refuse to tag and have other people complain and they say well he only kissed his sister and felt her up at night. it's not really the definition of incest so we won't tag it as such. That's childish.
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                        I haven't been tricked into playing futa games or any other genre save one, but yes we should all be adults and use the tags and stop hiding behind the, "It's not exactly the definition of" excuse, that's not the case with like incest where people refuse to tag and have other people complain and they say well he only kissed his sister and felt her up at night. it's not really the definition of incest so we won't tag it as such. That's childish.
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                     I still don't understand "tricked" - do you feel like someone is actively and maliciously trying to deceive you into playing a game that you're getting for free? What exactly would be their motive in doing this?
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                     Either this notion is completely ridiculous, or you're saying that some of our developers are putting an insane amount of effort into trolling people by developing and entire adult game to do so.
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                        I haven't been tricked into playing futa games or any other genre save one, [...]
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                     Honestly, I don't understand at all this "tricked" thing, especially as implied on this sentence. You can't really be tricked into playing futa. Not because its one of the easy tag (have she a dick, yes or no ; not the place here to talk about dick girls Vs Futa), but because it's not how it works. If you except the babies who see NTR everywhere, a tag is misleading because there's in fact no content corresponding to it, not because the tag is missing. It can happen that a tag is forgot at first, for the reasons explained above in the thread, but wait 24 hours, and all the needed tags will be here ; simply because enough people will have played it and warned about what's missing.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     What you talk about is a different things which is named : My game isn't finished yet, so be warned, some fetishes can possibly be added, like it can happen that finally I'll not add some of the ones I planed at first.
                     <br/>
                     Yes, it's a long name, but also a really explicit one. So, no, you aren't tricked, you are just the witness of the evolution of the game. And even if suddenly a wild Hermaphrodite appear with the version 0.50, it's still not a trick. Either you are hooked by the game and its story, and so it's not a real problem to deal with it (especially since there's in fact few games where fucking everyone is mandatory), or you aren't hooked and you just stop playing it.
                     <br/>
                     No guy will come to your room and shoot you because you stopped playing a game ; trust me on this, I took the
                     <s>
                      bullet
                     </s>
                     risk for you. No one will flood your PM box or mail box of reminder that you haven't played the few last update of "this" game. In short, you have no obligations to the game, if you don't like what it became, just stop, that's all.
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                        Honestly, I don't understand at all this "tricked" thing, especially as implied on this sentence. You can't really be tricked into playing futa. Not because its one of the easy tag (have she a dick, yes or no ; not the place here to talk about dick girls Vs Futa), but because it's not how it works. If you except the babies who see NTR everywhere, a tag is misleading because there's in fact no content corresponding to it, not because the tag is missing.....
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                     Well I believe you need a course in reading 101. I actually said and YOU quoted...
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                     pystudios said:
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                     I haven't been tricked into playing futa games or any other genre save one.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     And no we're not babies for calling out the childish tricksters for intentionally leaving out a tag or putting one in with no intent of the game to be in the genre tagged. I'm all Marine, combat Veteran, 100% man, not a baby thank you.
                     <br/>
                     btw the count is over 68% think there is a problem to 31.9% who doesn't think it's a problem.
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                  <div class="message-userContent lbContainer js-lbContainer" data-lb-caption-desc="anne O'nymous · Jul 2, 2018 at 8:14 PM" data-lb-id="post-879013">
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                        pystudios said:
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                        Well I believe you need a course in reading 101.
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                     Without this line, I would haven't answered. But it's like you are asking for it.
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                        I actually said and YOU quoted...
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                        pystudios said:
                        <a class="link link--external" href="https://f95zone.com/goto/post?id=875195#post-875195" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">
                         ↑
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                        I haven't been tricked into playing futa games or any other genre save one.
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                     You haven't because, like I explained, it's not possible. My answer don't contradict you, but (tried) to help you understand that your worries have no reason to exist.
                     <br/>
                     <i>
                      You haven't been tricked
                     </i>
                     , you said,
                     <i>
                      of course because you it's impossible to be tricked
                     </i>
                     , I answered.
                     <br/>
                     Especially for the reasons you use. Sometimes it even feel like you complain for the sole pleasure to complain, but don't understand your own arguments. By example, you complained about a game with a pregnancy tag, but still no sex. Why complaining ? No, seriously, why complaining ?
                     <br/>
                     The author used a big blinking neon sign, "warning, if you don't like pregnancy, playing this game will lead to a situation where you'll feel tricked !". He warn us, doing his possible to help people avoid a game that they'll end disliking. It's the opposite of a trick, the solution to the "bait and switch" situation you complain about (having all the tags from start make you avoid a game that you'll dislike later), but still you complain about it.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
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                        pystudios said:
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                        And no we're not babies for calling out the childish tricksters for intentionally leaving out a tag or putting one in with no intent of the game to be in the genre tagged.
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                     Perhaps that I'm not good at reading a language which isn't my natural one, but you clearly missed the obvious in my, "if you except the babies
                     <b>
                      who see NTR everywhere
                     </b>
                     ".
                     <br/>
                     Or are you part of those people who can't stand to see a
                     <u>
                      virtual character
                     </u>
                     with which they have absolutely no relation (and I don't even talk about a virtually romantic or virtually sexual one) kissing another virtual character ? I don't like NTR, because it's not what I search in a game, but it's not a reason to see it in every romantic/sexual scene which don't imply the MC, nor a reason to complain about it.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
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                        I'm all Marine, combat Veteran, 100% man, not a baby thank you.
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                     You know, people who are 100% men don't feel the need to say it. It's a certainty in their mind and they don't care what other can think about it.
                     <br/>
                     Oh, and by the way, they don't complain because, perhaps one day, they can end being tricked to play a game with an unannounced futa character in it. They deal with things and react like the man they are.
                     <br/>
                     A game have a content not represented by a tag ? They say it calmly in the thread, to help improving the accuracy of the description, and don't feel the need to make a whole thread to complain about the situation. Just because, like the man they are, they firstly tried to understand why it happen. And if they fail to understand it by themselves, by lack of knowledge on the concerned field, they stop once someone have explained it ; and here, more than one person did it.
                     <br/>
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                        btw the count is over 68% think there is a problem to 31.9% who doesn't think it's a problem.
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                     No, the count is a three thirds situation. A third of the people think that there's a problem, a third that things could be better (which don't mean that they think it can effectively be better), and a third that it's not a problem. Don't assume that people thinking that the tag could be more accurate are whining like you do. You can't even assume that it's the case for people thinking that there's a problem.
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                     I see Johnny Apple Seed didn't heed my warning!
                     <a class="username" data-user-id="25819" data-username="@bossapplesauce" data-xf-init="member-tooltip" href="https://f95zone.to/members/25819/">
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                     get a life!
                     <br/>
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                     No I'm failing to understand your logic.
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                         You haven't been tricked
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                         of course because you it's impossible to be tricked
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                     No it is not only POSSIBLE it's happened many times by people not using tags for the sole purpose of tricking people and it creates chaos and make people hate the genre even more so. A better way would be to try and co-exist like the other genres do.
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                        ou know, people who are 100% men don't feel the need to say it.
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                     If a childish whiner is calling a group of people who have a valid grievance cry babies then it is an appropriate response.
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                        No, the count is a three thirds situation.
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                     No matter how you slice it, it comes up peanuts, your view is less than a third of the members of the site. The rest DO SEE at less SOME issues with the TAGGING!
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                        By example, you complained about a game with a pregnancy tag, but still no sex. Why complaining ? No, seriously, why complaining? The author used a big blinking neon sign, "warning, if you don't like pregnancy, playing this game will lead to a situation where you'll feel tricked !". He warn us, doing his possible to help people avoid a game that they'll end disliking. It's the opposite of a trick, the solution to the "bait and switch" stuation you complain about (having all the tags from start make you avoid a game that you'll dislike later), but still you complain about it.
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                     I do actually get that argument in this case. If I want to play a game containing pregnancy and yet there isn't pregnancy in it, the tag certainly shouldn't be there. In the end Tags are not just only there to avoid certain things but also so look for content one likes - especially when it comes to fetishes like pregnancy. Of course nothing really bad will happen but tags which are added for "future content" are certainly a bit of an inconvenience and wasted time.
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                     So in the end that's actually and indeed the only problem I could see concerning those tags.
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                     Right. I'm gonna add my opinion to the tagging issue, not the argument that is 2 posts above this one.
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                     Personally speaking, if a game does not have a particular fetish (or thing) in it at the current version, but is planned...
                     <br/>
                     I'd be better off explaining it this way: let's say ntr (and I mean actual ntr
                     <b>
                      as defined by the site
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                     ) is planned content further down the line in a game, but it's
                     <b>
                      currently not
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                     in the game, the ntr tag does not go in. It can be added later when the content is there.
                     <br/>
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                     If a game doesn't have ntr, and a/the developer of the game explicitly stated that ntr (again, the sites definition) is not going to be introduced, then the tag won't be added.
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                     The same goes for any tag, like sci-fi, mind control, or even anal. If it's not in the game at current version, the tag doesn't go in.
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                     Just my opinion. Take it as you will.
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                     ~ Eoin ~
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                        j4yj4m said:
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                        I do actually get that argument in this case. If I want to play a game containing pregnancy and yet there isn't pregnancy in it, the tag certainly shouldn't be there. In the end Tags are not just only there to avoid certain things but also so look for content one likes - especially when it comes to fetishes like pregnancy.
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                     It's why you'll always found people who'll complain, in a way or another. If the tag is here from start, but you need to wait many update, you'll feel deceived. But the same apply if the tag appear only when the fetish is effectively added, people disliking it will feel tricked.
                     <br/>
                     And there's no solution, at least for the western scene, since authors fund their games while still working on it. So, either you (globally speaking obviously) take the risk, or only play already completed games ; there's enough of them after all.
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                     [edit: clarification of a point]
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                            Why does Dream of desire doesn't has NTR tag? as i know dream walker fucks every girl before mc &amp; there is a NTR or Voyeur or whatever you called with that publisher just want a simple answer!
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                     I believe it's because in both cases the "affection" isn't returned, nor is it romantic. The girls were forced either physically and/or by mind control, and rape isn't NTR.
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                     But I'm not an NTR definition expert by any stretch of the imagination, so I could be way off here.
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                     i think the biggest problem is ntr and the reason is, it's not a very well defined term and doesn't cover up many scenarios which are familiar to ntr. like the most obvious example my sister my roommate, dev says you are only fuck buddies with the sister and there are no romance involved therefore it's technically not ntr. but in practice, some guy is fucking the woman you want to fuck and you watch that. if you ask people who dislike ntr, most of them would dislike this situation too.
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                     imho, allowing everyone to add tags but only displaying the ones that got overwhelmingly positive votes can solve this issue. although knowing how insecure our community is, 90% of the games may end up tagged as ntr too x'D
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                  <div class="message-userContent lbContainer js-lbContainer" data-lb-caption-desc="bas · Jul 3, 2018 at 6:29 AM" data-lb-id="post-880432">
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                        ilozq said:
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                        i think the biggest problem is ntr and the reason is, it's not a very well defined term and doesn't cover up many scenarios which are familiar to ntr. like the most obvious example my sister my roommate, dev says you are only fuck buddies with the sister and there are no romance involved therefore it's technically not ntr. but in practice, some guy is fucking the woman you want to fuck and you watch that. if you ask people who dislike ntr, most of them would dislike this situation too.
                        <br/>
                        <br/>
                        imho, allowing everyone to add tags but only displaying the ones that got overwhelmingly positive votes can solve this issue. although knowing how insecure our community is, 90% of the games may end up tagged as ntr too x'D
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                     The last part made me LOL because it's 100% true
                     <img alt=":D" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite674" data-shortname=":D" src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" title="Big grin    :D"/>
                     .
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     Your NTR comment on MSMR hit the nail on the head; people who don't like NTR might not like that aspect of the game, but it still doesn't change the fact that it doesn't fall within the definition of NTR.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     You may have already seen TCMS's post about it, but here's our current roadblocks with tag voting:
                     <a class="link link--external" href="https://f95zone.com/threads/games-not-properly-tagged-poll.14410/page-2#post-870272" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">
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                        the most obvious example my sister my roommate, dev says you are only fuck buddies with the sister and there are no romance involved therefore it's technically not ntr. but in practice, some guy is fucking the woman you want to fuck and you watch that. if you ask people who dislike ntr, most of them would dislike this situation too.
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                     There are actually
                     <span style="color: #00b300">
                      two
                     </span>
                     major issues why this situation
                     <span style="color: #00b300">
                      does not
                     </span>
                     qualify as NTR. The first one, the one you mentioned is actually the
                     <span style="color: #00b300">
                      less
                     </span>
                     significant one - that the sister isn't MC's love interest, only a potential fuck buddy.
                     <br/>
                     The second and a
                     <span style="color: #00b300">
                      more
                     </span>
                     important one is that the MC has
                     <span style="color: #00b300">
                      no interest
                     </span>
                     keeping his sister to himself only. In case of NTR the MC
                     <span style="color: #00b300">
                      should hate
                     </span>
                     that situation, but in this case he actually
                     <span style="color: #00b300">
                      likes it
                     </span>
                     and finds it hot and arousing. That classifies as voyeur.
                     <br/>
                     In fact they actually help each other at finding partners. The sister is MC's "wingman" and the other way around. That is nowhere in the same universe as NTR!
                     <br/>
                     And also, as the dev has been
                     <span style="color: #00b300">
                      very clear
                     </span>
                     about it from the beginning, they
                     <span style="color: #00b300">
                      will not
                     </span>
                     end up together in any of the possible paths.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     So this is actually the most obvious case of NOT being NTR.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     This has been discussed in MSMR thread for many times and there are still people around that seem to be in denial of the facts that can be easily proven just by reading what the dev has said about his game.
                     <br/>
                     What I understand is that these guys want to classify this as NTR because
                     <span style="color: #00b300">
                      they
                     </span>
                     don't like that scene where sister is having sex with a random guy and MC is watching. That
                     <span style="color: #00b300">
                      they
                     </span>
                     want the MC to keep his sister for himself.
                     <br/>
                     However,
                     <span style="color: #00b300">
                      the game isn't written that way
                     </span>
                     . The MC is NOT the guy that these players want him to be. He isn't the guy who wants to stop his sister. He's the guy who
                     <span style="color: #00b300">
                      wants
                     </span>
                     to watch it happening.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     And so they just keep harassing the dev, some trying to make him to change the MC's personality into something that they would like, some trying to "prove" that it's NTR.
                     <br/>
                     There is no other explanation to this circus.
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                        There are actually
                        <span style="color: #00b300">
                         two
                        </span>
                        major issues why this situation
                        <span style="color: #00b300">
                         does not
                        </span>
                        qualify as NTR. The first one, the one you mentioned is actually the
                        <span style="color: #00b300">
                         less
                        </span>
                        significant one - that the sister isn't MC's love interest, only a potential fuck buddy.
                        <br/>
                        The second and a
                        <span style="color: #00b300">
                         more
                        </span>
                        important one is that the MC has
                        <span style="color: #00b300">
                         no interest
                        </span>
                        keeping his sister to himself only. In case of NTR the MC
                        <span style="color: #00b300">
                         should hate
                        </span>
                        that situation, but in this case he actually
                        <span style="color: #00b300">
                         likes it
                        </span>
                        and finds it hot and arousing. That classifies as voyeur.
                        <br/>
                        In fact they actually help each other at finding partners. The sister is MC's "wingman" and the other way around. That is nowhere in the same universe as NTR!
                        <br/>
                        And also, as the dev has been
                        <span style="color: #00b300">
                         very clear
                        </span>
                        about it from the beginning, they
                        <span style="color: #00b300">
                         will not
                        </span>
                        end up together in any of the possible paths.
                        <br/>
                        <br/>
                        So this is actually the most obvious case of NOT being NTR.
                        <br/>
                        <br/>
                        This has been discussed in MSMR thread for many times and there are still people around that seem to be in denial of the facts that can be easily proven just by reading what the dev has said about his game.
                        <br/>
                        What I understand is that these guys want to classify this as NTR because they don't like that scene where sister is having sex with a random guy and MC is watching. That they want MC to keep sister for himself.
                        <br/>
                        However, the game isnt't written that way. The MC is NOT that guy that these players want him to be. And so they keep harassing the dev, some trying to make him to change the MC's personality into something that they would like, some trying to "prove" that it's NTR.
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                     this will again get out of control but , BUT it is a role playing game, not just a porn. people identifies with the protagonists in these games. and that is why even though the mc enjoys watching his sister get screwed, the players don't. and this is why we need tags in the first place, to warn people for possible discomfort.
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                        this will again get out of control but , BUT it is a role playing game, not just a porn. people identifies with the protagonists in these games. and that is why even though the mc enjoys watching his sister get screwed, the players don't. and this is why we need tags in the first place, to warn people for possible discomfort.
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                     No, the dev already said what kind of content the game had so it's then down to the player to decide if they want to carry on.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     As we keep saying, it's not NTR because there is no relationship. It doesn't matter what YOU want, the game isn't going in that direction so you won't get it.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     There are plenty of other games that offer sisters for full relationships, you won't get it in MSRM and no matter how much it irks some of you it's not NTR.
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                        this will again get out of control but , BUT it is a role playing game, not just a porn. people identifies with the protagonists in these games. and that is why even though the mc enjoys watching his sister get screwed, the players don't. and this is why we need tags in the first place, to warn people for possible discomfort.
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                     Yes, exactly. It's just that this game is properly tagged already. Some are just trying to either change the game or change the tags into something that isn't correct any more.
                     <br/>
                     The guys who don't like to identify with this kind of MC just should keep away from this kind of games where there are two people in an open relationship where they can and want to watch each other having sex with other partners.
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                     i agree, it shouldn't be tagged as ntr...(here comes the but
                     <img alt=":D" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite674" data-shortname=":D" src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" title="Big grin    :D"/>
                     ) but the voyeurism tag also  doesn't fully cover the situation, what's happening in that game is somewhere between ntr and voyeurism.
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                     Aand again, it's
                     <span style="color: #59b300">
                      nowhere in the same universe as NTR
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                     when the MC
                     <span style="color: #59b300">
                      wants
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                     it to be happening! NTR is when the MC
                     <span style="color: #59b300">
                      hates
                     </span>
                     it.
                     <br/>
                     Where the hell do you get this kind of definition of NTR from, where the MC
                     <span style="color: #59b300">
                      likes
                     </span>
                     it?
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     It's very simple - when the MC hates it, it
                     <span style="color: #59b300">
                      may
                     </span>
                     be NTR. When he likes it or is indifferent, then it just
                     <span style="color: #59b300">
                      can not be
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                        Aand again, it's
                        <span style="color: #59b300">
                         nowhere in the same universe as NTR
                        </span>
                        when the MC
                        <span style="color: #59b300">
                         wants
                        </span>
                        it to be happening! NTR is when the MC
                        <span style="color: #59b300">
                         hates
                        </span>
                        it.
                        <br/>
                        Where the hell do you get this kind of definition of NTR from, where the MC
                        <span style="color: #59b300">
                         likes
                        </span>
                        it?
                        <br/>
                        <br/>
                        It's very simple - when the MC hates it, it
                        <span style="color: #59b300">
                         may
                        </span>
                        be NTR. When he likes it or is indifferent, then it just
                        <span style="color: #59b300">
                         can not be
                        </span>
                        NTR in any of the possible situations.
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                     </blockquote>
                     wikipedia will direct netorare to infidelity and according to them;
                     <br/>
                     <b>
                      Infidelity
                     </b>
                     (synonyms include:
                     <b>
                      cheating
                     </b>
                     ,
                     <b>
                      adultery
                     </b>
                     (when married),
                     <b>
                      netorare
                     </b>
                     (
                     <b>
                      NTR
                     </b>
                     ),
                     <b>
                      being unfaithful
                     </b>
                     , or
                     <b>
                      having an affair
                     </b>
                     ) is a violation of a couple's assumed or stated contract regarding emotional and/or sexual exclusivity
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     i don't know why does it matter whether the mc likes it or not. besides, that's not my point AT ALL. you are focused on the feelings of the mc and completely ignoring how the player would feel.
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                     You know that Wikipedia is NOT always the best source nor is always correct? In this case it is just way to vague about it. Obviously not written by someone who knows what it exactly is.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     In case of NTR it's basically the first and most important condition - the MC
                     <span style="color: #59b300">
                      must hate it
                     </span>
                     . If he doesn't, then it can be a lot of things, just not NTR.
                     <br/>
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                        i don't know why does it matter whether the mc likes it or not. besides, that's not my point AT ALL. you are focused on the feelings of the mc and completely ignoring how the player would feel.
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                     Because players feelings are impossible to predict, they are extremely individual and uncontrollable. Some players like it, some don't. You can not take into account only the feelings of those who don't like it while there are others who do.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     In case of subjective properties that depend on every individual player, the feelings of the player just can not be taken into account. The only objective thing that matters and is controllable are the feelings of the MC described in the game.
                     <br/>
                     If the feelings of the MC are in contradiction with the feelings of the player or incomprehensible to the player, then he should not play this game and should find something else for himself that he likes.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     You just can not take the players feelings into account, because that would make NTR totally subjective and every person would need a totally personal tagging system. That's impossible and absurd.
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                        Penfold Mole said:
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                        You know that Wikipedia is NOT always the best source nor is always correct? In this case it is just way to vague about it. Obviously not written by someone who knows what it exactly is.
                        <br/>
                        <br/>
                        In case of NTR it's basically the first and most important condition - the MC
                        <span style="color: #59b300">
                         must hate it
                        </span>
                        . If he doesn't, then it can be a lot of things, just not NTR.
                        <br/>
                        <br/>
                        <br/>
                        <br/>
                        Because players feelings are impossible to predict, they are extremely individual and uncontrollable. Some players like it, some don't. You can not take into account only the feelings of those who don't like it while there are others who do.
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                     of course, but you also know that wikipedia will always be the first site avarage joes like me will look for when they want to learn things.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     and since i'm not into the genre, i obviously am not as knowledgeable as you are and accept it as a fact.
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                        Because players feelings are impossible to predict, they are extremely individual and uncontrollable. Some players like it, some don't. You can not take into account only the feelings of those who don't like it while there are others who do.
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                     that is why i suggested a poll system. we can't make everyone happy but we can make majority happy.
                     <br/>
                     do you think people who are into ntr would be disappointed when they see mc reacting happily to his sister getting fucked by strangers? because i don't think netorare fans are THAT hardcore, am i mistaken?
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                     I honestly don't understand the point of the tags in the first place. Can we get a new poll asking how many members even
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                     at the tags? Reviewing tags before downloading free porn games is like looking at the fat and calorie content before
                     <s>
                      buying
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                     stealing ice cream. I've never read the tags on any game I've ever downloaded. I look at the preview pics, look at the initial comments, and download it for myself to try it if it looks interesting. If I like it, I'll keep an eye for the next update. If I don't, I won't.
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                     The notion that anyone feels "tricked" by the content of a game posted here is beyond comprehension.
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                     A poll system for every individual game would just make it a "who screams louder" system that is totally subjective and totally unfair to the core.
                     <br/>
                     When the feelings of the MC are described in the game, then it is an
                     <span style="color: #59b300">
                      objective
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                     property that can be counted on, that the dev
                     <span style="color: #59b300">
                      expects
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                     from the player to
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                      accept
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                     . The dev is creating a game of a certain genre and does it by describing the feelings and thoughts of the characters, including the MC. And in case they're unacceptable to some players, then it's just not meant for them, obviously.
                     <br/>
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                     The "official" definition/description of NTR on this forum is here:
                     <a class="link link--external" href="https://f95zone.com/threads/what-is-ntr.12432/#post-727570" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">
                      https://f95zone.com/threads/what-is-ntr.12432/#post-727570
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                     This pretty much matches with the descriptions floating around the Japanese anime fan sites, possibly the best and most competent sources for it.
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                     <br/>
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                     i know it has flaws, people who are not knowledgeable like old me (
                     <img alt=";)" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite668" data-shortname=";)" src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" title="Wink    ;)"/>
                     ) will scream ntr at every opportunity. it needs some kind of a supervision that also won't ignore the public just because the dev doesn't want to lose customers by "loose" tagging.
                     <br/>
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                     &gt;And in case they're unacceptable to some players, then it's just not meant for them.
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                     see, that's why we need the tags in the first place, to see if the game is meant for them.
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                     and from your source;
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                       Any consensual sex while the person knows about it and enjoys it is considered cuckoldry.
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                       Relatives can be a part of NTR only if the person wants to fuck their own family. This is the only exception to the sexual relationship rule as people related to one another already have a strong connection.
                      </li>
                     </ul>
                     so, that game needs a new tag other than a basic voyeurism officially. i've never seen a game tagged as cuckoldry though, does that even exist?
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                     you're right, it's most definetly not a HUGE problem like OP portrayed. but there are people like me who are not from a western country and have to use restricted internet with a quota. nevermind the low speed, we also have to evaluate the stuff we download if we don't want to pay extra to the  isp. it's a mild inconvenience at best.
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                     PM ME YOUR FAVORITE MONSTER GIRLS​
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                     Tags are used by many of our members and we're not getting rid of them.
                     <img alt=":)" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite667" data-shortname=":)" src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" title="Smile    :)"/>
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     Some tags are completely objective like vaginal sex, oral sex, 2dcg, etc. But when you add an emotional component like in the case of the NTR tag and a few others, it gets fuzzy. That means opinions, which will differ, and at times some very strong opinions.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     To me, the way to handle this is exercise your freedom of choice; if it turns out you don't like the game, don't play it again. If you want to voice an opinion that something should be tagged differently, go ahead - within the confines of the site rules. And the number 1 rule of this site is "Be respectful: opinions are fine, attacks are not".
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     That last part is the problem I see most often with the "NTR" conversation; it rarely stays civil.
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                        ilozq said:
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                        i don't know why does it matter whether the mc likes it or not. besides, that's not my point AT ALL. you are focused on the feelings of the mc and completely ignoring how the player would feel.
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                     It matters because what you're describing is having an open relationship, or "swinging", having multiple partners, etc., which is not NTR. Jesus, I cannot believe I'm having this conversation.... LMAO. Not a you mind you, just that I'm getting drawn into this topic
                     <img alt=":)" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite667" data-shortname=":)" src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" title="Smile    :)"/>
                     .
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                        ilozq said:
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                        because i don't think netorare fans are THAT hardcore, am i mistaken?
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                     Oh, yes, they are. You don't even wanna know man
                     <img alt=":D" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite674" data-shortname=":D" src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" title="Big grin    :D"/>
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                        but there are people like me who are not from a western country and have to use restricted internet with a quota. nevermind the low speed, we also have to evaluate the stuff we download if we don't want to pay extra to the  isp. it's a mild inconvenience at best.
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                     That is something I tend to forget so thank you for the reminder, but I would suggest then to ignore the tags altogether and read over the posts in the thread more carefully. If you're limited in how many games you can download each month, it seems even more important to read over the thread so you know what you're getting into instead of depending on accurate genre tags. I just now looked at the genre tags for 10 games I like and then 10 random games from the latest updates page, and I can say that that was several minutes of wasted time for me in that there was no pattern for games I liked and nothing about the tags made me more interested in a new game over and above the preview pics and member comments.
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                        like the most obvious example my sister my roommate, dev says you are only fuck buddies with the sister and there are no romance involved therefore it's technically not ntr. but in practice, some guy is fucking
                        <u>
                         the woman you want to fuck
                        </u>
                        and you watch that.
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                     The underlined part is the most important and the reason why it is not NTR. It's you, the player, who want to fuck the sister, and
                     <b>
                      only you
                     </b>
                     . Being a role playing game doesn't mean that you can simply goes over what the MC express in his dialog lines. If you do so, you don't identify to the PC (Player Character) but to some fiction you made about a fiction, and the tags have nothing to do with this.
                     <br/>
                     A game will not stop being purely straight because one of the player is bi and want to fuck one of the good looking male character. And for the same reason, a game don't include NTR because some of the players fail to understand the story and wanted to bang the sister right from the start.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     The fact is that a lot of people seem to misunderstand this game. It's not a game where the PC corrupt girls. There's corruption, but reversed corruption (there's perhaps a need for a tag for this, or does it already exist ?), here the character being corrupted is the PC, and the corrupter is his sister.
                     <br/>
                     In the last update, the PC is still uncomfortable seeing his sister naked. And when she asked him to finger her, to explain how to please a girl, he was reluctant at first. Yes, he enjoy seeing his sister naked, and yes, he masturbated while fingering her. But not because he want to fuck her, because he's a young man full of lust who had sex for the first time less than two weeks ago.
                     <br/>
                     How can someone see NTR when the PC himself still don't want the girl ?
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     In fact, it's the sister who want something from the PC. Perhaps him (at least it's what the CG and dialogs seem to imply more and more), perhaps just helping him to be a real stud. So, the scene where she bang a guy in her own bed while her brother was asleep, was needed by the story, and serve a double objective. Firstly, the PC needed to feel some kind of envy and some kind of jealousy, to make him receptive to the corruption process. Secondly, the sister needed to discover (or at least express for the player) the fact that being seen by her brother is a turn on for her ; and so start the said corruption process.
                     <br/>
                     We already know that we will probably never see this guy again. The sister was the side chick for a one night stand. Also note that the self said horny sister who want to bang everyone, have had less sex than her almost still virgin brother. I can be wrong on this one, but it even seem that she don't tried to seduce D, just using him as excuse to let her brother alone with the girl.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     So, no, it's not NTR. And it's not either voyeurism for the same reason. It's not the PC who want to see his sister doing lewd things, but her who started to enjoy exposing herself in front of him. And it's neither exhibitionism since it's not the player who enjoyed masturbating in front of her, but her who enjoyed seeing him.
                     <br/>
                     And that's why I talk about the Player Character and not the Main Character. The brother is the character played but, as far as we can know, the Main Character of the story actually seen is in fact the sister. She is the puppeteer who apparently want both the guy and the girl... and we are a lot to hope she'll succeed (which still not make it NTR).
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                     Anne, thank you for a more accurate description of the game! You are absolutely right that the sister is the corruptor there and the brother is the one (still) reluctant to the idea of having sex with her.
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                     I was already so damn sleepy when I was posting here (until 3.39 AM for me) that I'm amazed that my thoughts actually made any sense in English at all. Sorry for possible mistakes. I actually forgot about the fact of the sister being the corruptor that has already been established in the game thread long ago.
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                        Anne, thank you for a more accurate description of the game!
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                     You're welcome. I love the concept so much that I can probably talk about it for hours
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                     Tags do help finding games that you are looking for or fetishes you like, but i see no reason to get all gung-ho over it since these games are free. I use to talk about NTR but i since moved past it knowing i can play other games.
                     <br/>
                     Now i just read through some comments after i read the overview and tags if i see a tag like NTR i search for that through the thread to get my answer on it.
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                     People need to learn how to use the search bar above it is so simple.
                     <br/>
                     I do understand that it is nearly impossible for uploaders to go through each game just to tag them correctly, if people have a issue with that then play the game and ask in the games forum for a tag to be added, the issue with that though is some people don't understand certain tags like NTR and they think everything with another dick is NTR, but for other tags it should not be a big issue.
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                        I honestly don't understand the point of the tags in the first place. ..
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                        The notion that anyone feels "tricked" by the content of a game posted here is beyond comprehension.
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                     Really, most players do not read the walkthroughs, they do NOT read what the dev said months earlier, they do however look at the tags and the name of the game but do not expect deceit. The name My sister, My Roommate along with the incest tag but no other tag suggesting otherwise they expect the sister IS the MCs interest. They then come unglued when they find out they were deceived into playing a genre they have no interest in playing.
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                     My apologies, but instead of creating a new thread.
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                     This has been quite an annoyance to me lately, wrongly tagged games.
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                     Downloading 1-2 GB of not yet complete content and having to play/read/interact with said game/Comic/VN[Comic] just to realize the tag or tags you saw and was the reason to why you downloaded it to begin with wasn't there...
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                     I don't agree on the argument "but it's going to be in it later/or not"
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                     Sometimes tags are missing too, this isn't as frequent but I don't enjoy GAY or similar content and I'm somewhat disturbed when they're present.
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                     It would be nice to have two sets of tags.
                     <br/>
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                     The filter tags should be only what's in the game currently while a second set of tags placed in the main body of the first post would be what's expected.
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                     I play most Adult Interactive Fiction on Android.
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                     When in doubt, update
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                     .
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                     Lover of VNs with a story. Especially with the "Romance" tag.
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                        Jonboy80 said:
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                        It would be nice to have two sets of tags.
                        <br/>
                        <br/>
                        The filter tags should be only what's in the game currently while a second set of tags placed in the main body of the first post would be what's expected.
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                     We already have that but its not being used correctly.
                     <br/>
                     At the top should only have the
                     <b>
                      tags
                     </b>
                     that is in the game or up to the update that is out.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     <b>
                      Genre
                     </b>
                     : Should be what will be in the complete game/VN.
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        Average
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       <option value="4">
        Good
       </option>
       <option value="5">
        Excellent
       </option>
      </select>
     </div>
    </div>
   </div>
  </div>
  <div class="u-bottomFixer js-bottomFixTarget">
  </div>
  <form hidden="hidden" style="display:none">
   <input id="_xfClientLoadTime" name="_xfClientLoadTime" tabindex="-1" title="_xfClientLoadTime" type="text" value=""/>
  </form>
 </body>
</html>
