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   I think some designers are missing the point of making an erotic game | F95zone
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              I think some designers are missing the point of making an erotic game
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                     Here's a hint, it's the word before game in the title.  That's right, erotic.  Let's not be coy and call it an adult game, we came here to see pixels doing naughty things.  Why, then, do so many games pad or fill in with non-erotic content?  I think some of the bad habits of the larger gaming community have carried over into these games.
                     <br/>
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                     Here's one of them: dollars per hour.  (But most of the games are free! Yeah, bear with me.)  There is a commonly held belief that games, the kind you can find at a game store, need to provide hours of entertainment to be "worth" the price.  You'll find yourself collecting 10 bear asses or fighting 500 skeletons, whatever.  If the core gameplay is fighting stuff, then let me fight all day.  The problem becomes when an erotic game simulates boring repetitive tasks as gameplay.  You go to work, you collect $20.  When you collect $180 you can buy a spy camera to see nude ladies.  Only 8 more work days to go!  I didn't load up your game to do a boring job, I have one of those and it's equally unsexy.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     Now I much prefer games where every time you go somewhere or interact with someone you get either story progression or erotic scenes.  That being said, you don't have to make the grind boring. Spice it up, tease the player with some almost erotic content.  If you are going to make me "earn" my erotic content, then give me something to enjoy before I earn it.  If I have to go to the gym to get buff, put some babes working out in sexy outfits.  But, every time I go, there should be something new to see.  I don't want to see the same two ladies doing the same two exercises ten times.  You might say, but that's a lot of work, rendering ten different workout scenes with different ladies.  Well then don't make me go to the gym ten fucking times, how about that?
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     Here's a good and bad example of how to handle this, in the same game no less!  In Milfy City when you go to work for your sister, your job is take photos of your sister in sexy clothes.  YES!  This is the kind of activity I can get behind.  Oh I have to take pictures of hot women in sexy clothes, I mean if I have to.  How did I get the money to buy the camera?  I had to ask my dad for money a couple times and find some lying around then cheat at a weird mini game on computer.  Ah, you were so close ICSTOR.  Then there is working for your mother, while it does have some scenes, the job proper is largely a hidden object mini game (sigh).  Please stop putting time wasting activities in these games.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     The other problem along these lines is what I would refer to as the "slow burn" game.  Where the erotic part of the game is all at the back end.  These typically involve corruption games, where a woman becomes more lewd over time.  It can also involve games highly focused on developing a relationship slowly over time.  Now I don't fault these games for working their way up to the content, but you really have to keep the pacing.  If I'm trying to woo my favorite girl, but it's at least 30 solid minutes before I get to any sexy times, give me a taste here and there.  Most often this comes in the form of scenes where you peek on them or get some accidental nudity.  These are tried and true methods, but there are plenty of ways to handle it.  Just don't forget why the player even loaded your game to begin with.  This is even easier if the player is a female protagonist, because people get naked on their own all the time.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     Here's an example of what not to do in these situations.  In a Wife and Mother, this is a corruption style slow burn game where the player is the titular Wife and Mother.  Now I believe the designer is going for the sexually frustrated desperate housewife vibe.  The thing that baffles me is that the early version of the game has what seems like 100s of rendered scenes but almost none of them are erotic.  The main character goes through dozens of wardrobe changes and even some bathing scenes and you never even see a nipple.  The most you see is her covering herself while nude.  At one point she is changing clothes, with her bra off facing
                     <i>
                      away
                     </i>
                     from the camera!  I literally said "fucking why?" at this point.  The most erotic content I found in the game was to do with the maid and even that is very tame.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     I just feel like with the pure amount of effort that has been put into the game's renders, they are missing the point of the game.  I've seen entire games with less renders than WAM currently has but about 1000% more erotic content and been perfectly happy with them.  Maybe when the game develops a little more we'll be treated to 100s of erotic rendered scenes, but I feel like the ratio is way off.  I personally think they are wasting their time and the player's at this point, though that is bound to change (I hope).  Don't get me wrong, I think the game is high on quality, just low on substance.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     In short, please don't forget why people are playing your game.  There are plenty of non-erotic dating sims and whatever other genre your game might fall into.  The reason we play the games on here is because we want them to be erotic, plain and simple.  You want to make the player earn it, fine.  You want to develop a rich story, great.  Just make it erotic.  Even though I don't like the term, these games are for perverts.  I say that with no malice or derision. I'm stating a fact.  The players are horny and looking for an outlet, so give it to them, that's why we are here right?
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     [I realize I was writing from a perspective of a male looking for female pornographic content, but feel free to substitute your own personal tastes and kinks.]
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                     Based on the first paragraph I expected to disagree with most of the things you'd have to say here, but it turns out this was a fairly well thought out post with a lot of good points, heh. I'm with you on cutting out the needless stat grinds without regular unique pay-offs each step of the way. Summertime Saga suffers a lot from that one; both with the stats and money making.
                     <br/>
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                     I'm fine with mini-games being added as long as they have a decent reward and are fun. I'm thinking about putting a simple strip card game into the game I'm working on as an optional feature the player can challenge some of the characters with. I also wouldn't mind having some side voyeur features that aren't strictly necessary, but there for those like me who enjoy such things. But again without locking it behind needless grinding.
                     <br/>
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                     I can see having routes/scenes where there may be little action with certain characters in a game, if that is the point of the character. But if the character is meant to be playing a sexual role in the game, then the majority of their renders should be dedicated to sexy time scenes.
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                        I'm fine with mini-games being added as long as they have a decent reward and are fun. I'm thinking about putting a simple strip card game into the game I'm working on as an optional feature the player can challenge some of the characters with. I also wouldn't mind having some side voyeur features that aren't strictly necessary, but there for those like me who enjoy such things. But again without locking it behind needless grinding.
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                     A stripping mini game sounds like a perfect fit.  It's light fun, and a bit or maybe very erotic.  As long as it doesn't outstay it's welcome, sounds like a great idea.  I'm not saying no grinding and I'm not saying no mini games.  I'm saying give some consideration to the genre.  If you are making the player or even allowing the player to do an activity, make it enjoyable for them.
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                     I sort of agree and sort of disagree.
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                     My favorite porn games are the ones that are good games that have porn, and not good porn that have game elements.
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                     So I agree when you say that grinding the same event over and over to get money to buy a camera or whatever makes for a bad erotic game... but that is just because it would make for a boring game as well.
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                     Examples of games I really like are Queen Opala II and Noxian Nights. Both are good RPGs, not professional level but still upper tier when it comes to RPG Maker, and both have some great erotic content.
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                     Now Noxian Nights is a nukige that starts with a rape and a blowjob, so it gets straight to the point and may not be the best example for what I'm talking about, but in Queen Opala specifically real erotic events can be very far and in-between, and minor teasing events are also not that common, and some characters you think would have scenes just plain don't. But I still really enjoyed the game for the game, in a way I can't with, say, visual novels.
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                     And, like, if I could play Persona 4 but at the end of social links I get to see some action with Yukiko or Chie, I'd be fine with it because Persona 4 is great even without sex.
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                     So far, the game I have tried that does the best job balancing the work/reward grind, is Long live the Princess. I think this game does a very good job of making you work to achieve something, while also constantly rewarding you in various ways.
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                        So far, the game I have tried that does the best job balancing the work/reward grind, is Long live the Princess. I think this game does a very good job of making you work to achieve something, while also constantly rewarding you in various ways.
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                        This is just my personal opinion ofc.
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                     I agree, that one does a decent job of moving things along and giving you rewards here and there.  Like the training with the fighter lady (forgot her name) seems to be different each time.  That's what I'm talking about.  Just don't make me repeat the exact same content over and over.  On the flip side, that one has the "New Game+" idea in it, where you get to start over with better stats.  It's sort of a cheap way to extend playability that other games have incorporated.  I've never personally liked the system much.  It irks me that there is potential content locked behind hurdles you can't clear in your first go.  I'm all for different paths in games, where you can play it again and maybe try to court a new character or just try a different approach.  The caveat there being that you actually get a different experience and not just the same experience with minor changes.
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                     I totally understand where you are coming from.  In my mind they are slightly different genres and perhaps there's a bit of a fuzzy area in the middle.  Sort of a spectrum if you will.  I'm mostly talking about porn games where the erotic content is the focus.  What you are referring to is more of a game that has porn and not specifically a porn game, if that makes any sense.  If there are intricate systems and engaging gameplay mechanics, but occasionally there is nudity or sex, that's a different animal.
                     <br/>
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                     Like say there was a solid fighting game with combos and guard breaks, all that shit, and then when you beat you opponent they get naked or have sex.  Like you mention, there could be a fairly involved RPG with skill points and equipment, but sometimes there's sex, great.  I can appreciate those games in their own right, but it's not specifically what I'm talking about here.  I'm mostly referring to games where the focus is purely on the erotic nature of it.  I don't expect every part of the game to be erotic, you have to balance it out, there's a natural rhythm to a good game.  But games that are just wasting my time with fluff I can't stand.
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                     [EDIT] To further clarify my thoughts on this. I think any activity in an erotic game should A: Be erotic B: Progress the story or C: Be fun or engaging.  Now I think every good game needs a lot of A and B in appropriate portions, C can be somewhat subjective.  Obviously, if you hit the trifecta, you're doing great.
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                     Always a pleasure to see a meaningful and mature discussion on the forum.
                     <br/>
                     I've really enjoyed OP's point of view on the topic. And I absolutely agree that porn games and mindless grind come from different planets. One can hardly get a boner after an hour or even more of clicking through repetitive "daily tasks" in order to earn money/stats/love points, etc. And thank God, if all that grinding results in a decent sex scene with multiple poses and descriptions.Unlucky players might end up staring at a generic solo sex image, which blinks on the screen for a couple of moments and then the game returns back to the sad grinding orbit.
                     <br/>
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                     As a game developer, I can admit that it's not an easy task to keep the balance between an interesting read, the number of sex scenes and mini-games. But constant learning and skills improvement is something every dev should stick to. Speaking of skills, I'll be thankful if the OP and other respectable members can follow the link below, try out the free demo of my game and share impressions. It's an almost one hour-long(!) demo and I wonder if the above-mentioned text-art balance needs tweaking. The project's just getting started, so any constructive feedback is welcome.
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                     You're not wrong. And while you sound a bit more extreme on some things than myself, there are areas where you're more lenient as well. For me, Grind is what you do when you don't have a good reason for your character's to fuck. Honestly, I didn't have that much of a problem with the Tic Tac Toe minigame in Milfy City, I get that it isn't erotic, but I played it rather well and was able to buy everything from the stores before I even started working for my sister. It wasn't like many other games that limit how much you can work or earn in a day or which make work cost you time, or create a system where you can't possibly earn all the money you need by adding an over the top financial burden on the player, thereby stretching out the game because you have to spend time working rather than playing. I'd say I spent maybe a half hour to 45 minutes on that minigame in Milfy City. It was somewhat rewarding, and not too frustrating, so I gave it a pass. It isn't perfect, but if you have to have a money minigame it isn't the worst.
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                     Now, what you said about pacing is spot fucking on. There is a game out there that I'm sure we all know about that is something like 17 versions in and only just got to blowjob content. Hell, it even decided to end it's first version and start a second game because it was taking so long to get to the content. This game in particular has a fine premise but horrible pacing and incredibly inconsistent characters. And this is where I find we run into the biggest problem. Most games seem to have developers who can handle the art and the code (some have those problems as well, but bear with me) However most seem to have no clue how to write a compelling story. That is why so many games substitute story for grind, that is why you have games where the pacing is so incredibly off. It is why you have games where a character is retarded one second and brilliant the next. It's why you have games wherein the MC is actively working against the player's goal of getting sexual content. Too many people have an idea and some artistic skill, but not nearly enough know how to write that idea.
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                     If I have to spend let's say 30min playing a mini game, that mini game better be damn fun or I better get an immediate reward.  Even then, you are testing my patience.  You have to ask yourself, why am I making the player do this?  If the answer is to space out the erotic content, then that's not good enough.  As Darth says, it's a poor substitution for story.  If you want the player, or the character even, to earn the erotic content through activity, just make it fun or engaging.
                     <br/>
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                     I'll use the same mini game from Milfy City (which was rock/paper/scissors in my version...)  It was not fun, it was just RNG.  You could lose your money as easy as you could earn it.  I ended up saving before each "roll" and loading if it I lost.  You could argue I was rewarded via buying the camera and being able to take pics of the sister, but I didn't get anything from the mini game experience.  If I could have just cheated my way to the money even faster I would have done that.  If I just had $1000 from the start of the game I wouldn't have missed anything.  I think the very presence of that mini game is a cheat.  It's admitting that there was no meaningful way to earn money, so it was shoe horned in. [Why did I even have to buy a camera, why didn't she just have one, who cares?]
                     <br/>
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                     As an exercise, I'll just come up with some ways of earning money I'd find more enjoyable off the top of my head.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     -Taking naughty pictures or setting up spy cams and selling the results. (Assuming I get to see the results before or after selling them.)
                     <br/>
                     -A memory game where all of the cards are original erotic art.
                     <br/>
                     -Cleaning a pool where various ladies in bikinis show up every time for the player to ogle.
                     <br/>
                     -Giving massages to partially clothed women. Maybe the mini game is finding the sore spots to sooth.
                     <br/>
                     -Selling popsicles at the beach where ladies in bikinis suck on them seductively.
                     <br/>
                     -Being a runner for a modeling agency where you fetch various items while half naked women do photoshoots.
                     <br/>
                     -Collecting dirty towels in a women's locker room.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     It doesn't have to be complicated, it doesn't even have to be particularly believable, but it should be something the player WANTS to do, not something the player is forced to do out of necessity.
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                     Hah I said tic tac toe, forgive me I'd only just woken up, it was rock paper scissors.
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                     I agree with all your alternatives, but I think I'm also gonna have to kill that fantasy, because you'll run into the same problem from your first post about the gym, the person needs to make several unique work days. They're not gonna do that. So I'll actually submit my favourite in game work experience, mythic manor's article writing.
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                     With mythic manor it operates on 4 day parts. During each day part you can perform one activity. Often one of those day parts can't be filled with an activity with one of the girls, just by chance, so you'll use that day part to get on the computer and write an article. It takes no time, and you will usually have at least one day part to do it each day.
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                     Another thing that games could do, is abandon the day to day aspect. Look at almost any other media, time is usually completely random. Your character's time working doesn't have to be a part of the game, unless their job is part of it, like with a teacher, doctor, or some other situation where the point is abusing your power over and proximity to the girls. You could have activities in the game simply happen during the times you're not working, and give your character a weekly income. There's no reason to make earning the money a part of the game, and so long as you make things in your game cost a reasonable amount, no one's going to complain.
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                     I like porn games that play like ordinary games, but the rewards for these games is the porn instead of MMR or better items.. It's the meshing of both that I'm after. If I just wanted erotic content I probably wouldn't be playing a porn game in the first place. I'm completely happy looking for a spy camera or whatever else you mentioned.
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                     I think a good example of this is slave lords of the galaxy, they have all sorts of minigames and puzzles you solve to get to that end reward. Being forced to solve an 8-puzzle or whatever in of itself isn't normally what I would be doing with my free time, but the achievement of that task for the erotic reward makes the content more worthwhile in my eyes.
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                        Here's a hint, it's the word before game in the title.  That's right, erotic.  Let's not be coy and call it an adult game, we came here to see pixels doing naughty things.  Why, then, do so many games pad or fill in with non-erotic content?  I think some of the bad habits of the larger gaming community have carried over into these games.
                        <br/>
                        <br/>
                        Here's one of them: dollars per hour.  (But most of the games are free! Yeah, bear with me.)  There is a commonly held belief that games, the kind you can find at a game store, need to provide hours of entertainment to be "worth" the price.  You'll find yourself collecting 10 bear asses or fighting 500 skeletons, whatever.  If the core gameplay is fighting stuff, then let me fight all day.  The problem becomes when an erotic game simulates boring repetitive tasks as gameplay.  You go to work, you collect $20.  When you collect $180 you can buy a spy camera to see nude ladies.  Only 8 more work days to go!  I didn't load up your game to do a boring job, I have one of those and it's equally unsexy.
                        <br/>
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                        Now I much prefer games where every time you go somewhere or interact with someone you get either story progression or erotic scenes.  That being said, you don't have to make the grind boring. Spice it up, tease the player with some almost erotic content.  If you are going to make me "earn" my erotic content, then give me something to enjoy before I earn it.  If I have to go to the gym to get buff, put some babes working out in sexy outfits.  But, every time I go, there should be something new to see.  I don't want to see the same two ladies doing the same two exercises ten times.  You might say, but that's a lot of work, rendering ten different workout scenes with different ladies.  Well then don't make me go to the gym ten fucking times, how about that?
                        <br/>
                        <br/>
                        Here's a good and bad example of how to handle this, in the same game no less!  In Milfy City when you go to work for your sister, your job is take photos of your sister in sexy clothes.  YES!  This is the kind of activity I can get behind.  Oh I have to take pictures of hot women in sexy clothes, I mean if I have to.  How did I get the money to buy the camera?  I had to ask my dad for money a couple times and find some lying around then cheat at a weird mini game on computer.  Ah, you were so close ICSTOR.  Then there is working for your mother, while it does have some scenes, the job proper is largely a hidden object mini game (sigh).  Please stop putting time wasting activities in these games.
                        <br/>
                        <br/>
                        The other problem along these lines is what I would refer to as the "slow burn" game.  Where the erotic part of the game is all at the back end.  These typically involve corruption games, where a woman becomes more lewd over time.  It can also involve games highly focused on developing a relationship slowly over time.  Now I don't fault these games for working their way up to the content, but you really have to keep the pacing.  If I'm trying to woo my favorite girl, but it's at least 30 solid minutes before I get to any sexy times, give me a taste here and there.  Most often this comes in the form of scenes where you peek on them or get some accidental nudity.  These are tried and true methods, but there are plenty of ways to handle it.  Just don't forget why the player even loaded your game to begin with.  This is even easier if the player is a female protagonist, because people get naked on their own all the time.
                        <br/>
                        <br/>
                        Here's an example of what not to do in these situations.  In a Wife and Mother, this is a corruption style slow burn game where the player is the titular Wife and Mother.  Now I believe the designer is going for the sexually frustrated desperate housewife vibe.  The thing that baffles me is that the early version of the game has what seems like 100s of rendered scenes but almost none of them are erotic.  The main character goes through dozens of wardrobe changes and even some bathing scenes and you never even see a nipple.  The most you see is her covering herself while nude.  At one point she is changing clothes, with her bra off facing
                        <i>
                         away
                        </i>
                        from the camera!  I literally said "fucking why?" at this point.  The most erotic content I found in the game was to do with the maid and even that is very tame.
                        <br/>
                        <br/>
                        I just feel like with the pure amount of effort that has been put into the game's renders, they are missing the point of the game.  I've seen entire games with less renders than WAM currently has but about 1000% more erotic content and been perfectly happy with them.  Maybe when the game develops a little more we'll be treated to 100s of erotic rendered scenes, but I feel like the ratio is way off.  I personally think they are wasting their time and the player's at this point, though that is bound to change (I hope).  Don't get me wrong, I think the game is high on quality, just low on substance.
                        <br/>
                        <br/>
                        In short, please don't forget why people are playing your game.  There are plenty of non-erotic dating sims and whatever other genre your game might fall into.  The reason we play the games on here is because we want them to be erotic, plain and simple.  You want to make the player earn it, fine.  You want to develop a rich story, great.  Just make it erotic.  Even though I don't like the term, these games are for perverts.  I say that with no malice or derision. I'm stating a fact.  The players are horny and looking for an outlet, so give it to them, that's why we are here right?
                        <br/>
                        <br/>
                        [I realize I was writing from a perspective of a male looking for female pornographic content, but feel free to substitute your own personal tastes and kinks.]
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                     Damn!! Very well written, The only exception of the slow burn games can be Lily of the Valley. That game has evolved so well that it literally makes you go mad for the MC. A Wife and Mother was one of the bad games I have played. Thankfully I downloaded the skunked version. But ended up extracting the rpa file to see the content. People who actually downloaded the original sized game would surely have been disheartened. Another game that had good story build and atleast average amount of erotic content was V3X's Ethan's Legacy. Even today I wish for the creator to come back and continue the story line, because it was actually heading towards much more greatness, storyline wise. Every game nowadays has incest content and this content and that content. But it actually has very less story buildup and little erotic scenes. And the worst fact is that you can't even give your opinion since you are a free user. Trust me, I used to be a guy who used to download almost all renpy and rpgm  games that got uploaded over here, but nowadays I download only a select few because I am interested in their storyline. Dreams of Desire is an example of that.
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                        With mythic manor it operates on 4 day parts. During each day part you can perform one activity. Often one of those day parts can't be filled with an activity with one of the girls, just by chance, so you'll use that day part to get on the computer and write an article. It takes no time, and you will usually have at least one day part to do it each day.
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                        Another thing that games could do, is abandon the day to day aspect. Look at almost any other media, time is usually completely random. Your character's time working doesn't have to be a part of the game, unless their job is part of it, like with a teacher, doctor, or some other situation where the point is abusing your power over and proximity to the girls. You could have activities in the game simply happen during the times you're not working, and give your character a weekly income. There's no reason to make earning the money a part of the game, and so long as you make things in your game cost a reasonable amount, no one's going to complain.
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                     With Mythic Manor, you can actually often fit in work along side another interaction in the same time slot, as long as you don't do anything else before it. For instance if the last time slot dropped you into the hallway, go straight into your room, turn on the computer and go straight to the work without stopping to look at the cameras or anything. There is a good chance you will finish work and still be on the same time slot.
                     <br/>
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                     As to your suggestion of cutting out work as an interactive thing, just making it something that eats up a slot so you could get a weekly income, that's the compromise I've been giving the most thought to lately. I was thinking of just making the MC something like a freelance illustrator and have it so the player has to skip a handful of time slots a week for work to get their pay check. It could be fit in any slot, only done once a day, and only needs to be done say 3 or 4 times a week to get your pay. It would just get a screen transition to the next time slot and maybe one of several random flavor texts to say how work went.
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                        With Mythic Manor, you can actually often fit in work along side another interaction in the same time slot, as long as you don't do anything else before it. For instance if the last time slot dropped you into the hallway, go straight into your room, turn on the computer and go straight to the work without stopping to look at the cameras or anything. There is a good chance you will finish work and still be on the same time slot.
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                        As to your suggestion of cutting out work as an interactive thing, just making it something that eats up a slot so you could get a weekly income, that's the compromise I've been giving the most thought to lately. I was thinking of just making the MC something like a freelance illustrator and have it so the player has to skip a handful of time slots a week for work to get their pay check. It could be fit in any slot, only done once a day, and only needs to be done say 3 or 4 times a week to get your pay. It would just get a screen transition to the next time slot and maybe one of several random flavor texts to say how work went.
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                     Even that is a bit more than I was talking about. Recently myself and a fellow developer have been talking about breaking away from the daily progression style most games go with. Instead of following our character as he wakes up each day and goes about his day we intend to simply follow them for the important bits. Think of your average television show. You don't follow the character through their boring parts of the day unless its being played for comedy. There's no reason that a similar concept of time and progression can't be applied to our games. For my part, I'm in the midst of writing a story following a girl who's a senior in high school, and the story is going to take a more, and this comparison is mostly related to time, but a more Harry Potter like story progression. We aren't going to follow her to every class, just the ones that are critical to the plot. We aren't going to go to the bathroom with her every day, just when something is going to happen. We aren't going to spend days grinding in between dates, if a date gets set up it will happen, and we will move on.
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                     This is definitely YMMV territory, I like having some gameplay as long as it offers something to the game. Let me think of some examples where it works out okay:
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                     - Lust &amp; Power. There is a progression system here. You fight demons for skill points and resources that you need to keep the game going and also to continue making progress on the H-content. The combat system is simple, you can basically figure out what you're supposed to do in each situation and it mostly becomes a matter of rolling the dice until you get the results you want. It's like a very light survival game, but I find the pacing very pleasant. You go out, do some battles, loot houses, and as soon as you have enough, say, food, you think ''awesome, now I can get the next scene with mom, can't wait to get back and see what it is''. At least to me, it wouldn't be half as good if you could just click through all the scenes with no interval at all. And you know exactly when the next scene will be available, it's not hidden behind story branches or hidden stats but rather in the loot you haul back. Oh, and there is actually some procedurally-generated sexy stuff as well sometimes when you're out looting but meh, mom is what it's
                     <i>
                      really
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                     - Action/ryona games. Not too many on this site, Ghost Hunter Vena is a good example. You have cutscenes, which you have to progress through the game to see of course, but you also have H-content
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                     the combat system, which basically you have to do badly at the game to see. Or you can give in and load your game afterward. Or complete the game and see it in the gallery. Giving the player options is a good thing. Depending on your point of view, you could see the combat sex as a consolation prize or a tease, either way I'm a fan of this style.
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                     Ya, that makes a lot of sense, especially for a more story driven style game. For mine though, I'm going for something of a sim game that is inspired by Teaching Feeling. I plan to create a dev diary thread for it at some point in the next few days to share more details and my progress leading up to release for those interested. Anyhow, the way the game will be setup, with a lot of choice for the player regarding how they interact with the girl and others from around town throughout the day, it will tend to work well with a time slot system. It just makes things a lot easier in this situation.
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                        - Lust &amp; Power. There is a progression system here. You fight demons for skill points and resources that you need to keep the game going and also to continue making progress on the H-content. The combat system is simple, you can basically figure out what you're supposed to do in each situation and it mostly becomes a matter of rolling the dice until you get the results you want. It's like a very light survival game, but I find the pacing very pleasant. You go out, do some battles, loot houses, and as soon as you have enough, say, food, you think ''awesome, now I can get the next scene with mom, can't wait to get back and see what it is''. At least to me, it wouldn't be half as good if you could just click through all the scenes with no interval at all. And you know exactly when the next scene will be available, it's not hidden behind story branches or hidden stats but rather in the loot you haul back. Oh, and there is actually some procedurally-generated sexy stuff as well sometimes when you're out looting but meh, mom is what it's
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                     It's not gonna be soon, as my plate is full. But I plan on releasing a game with a D&amp;D feel to it at some point, it'll have combat and progression, and it'll also be the type of thing that shows a game like Lust &amp; Power is poorly paced and grindy. Don't get me wrong, I loved the premise of the game, but it just got too much into the grind with not enough reward to make it worth the effort.
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                        As an exercise, I'll just come up with some ways of earning money I'd find more enjoyable off the top of my head.
                        <br/>
                        <br/>
                        -Taking naughty pictures or setting up spy cams and selling the results. (Assuming I get to see the results before or after selling them.)
                        <br/>
                        -A memory game where all of the cards are original erotic art.
                        <br/>
                        -Cleaning a pool where various ladies in bikinis show up every time for the player to ogle.
                        <br/>
                        -Giving massages to partially clothed women. Maybe the mini game is finding the sore spots to sooth.
                        <br/>
                        -Selling popsicles at the beach where ladies in bikinis suck on them seductively.
                        <br/>
                        -Being a runner for a modeling agency where you fetch various items while half naked women do photoshoots.
                        <br/>
                        -Collecting dirty towels in a women's locker room.
                        <br/>
                        <br/>
                        It doesn't have to be complicated, it doesn't even have to be particularly believable, but it should be something the player WANTS to do, not something the player is forced to do out of necessity.
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                     I'd actually somewhat disagree here. As soon as it's about earning money it's always about necessity and unless a dev literally includes dozens of different and rather equal ways to get money they'll all get "boring" rather fast. So while things like selling pics from spycams, collection of towels etc. may be interesting once or twice, it becomes just as "unerotic" if you have to repeat it 20 times and have seen all the scenes. In that case I'd actually prefer there to be alternatives which are easy, fast and generic. Aunt Diane's garden game in SummertimeSaga a rather good example to me since it's of course very generic but lasts only 8-10 seconds for decent money. In my opinion that's actually preferable to repeatable erotic ways to earn money which last 2 minutes each and don't really provide anything. And yes, long lasting, non erotic, repeatable ways to earn money should indeed be the exception since they provide even less. In the end a good mix between repeatable generic quests/games to make a fast buck, longer erotic quests/games for fun and indeed some other quests/games to forward the story is likely the best outcome for every game.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     Else I just want to mention that I do Indeed enjoy quite a few rather slow paced/story based games and I don't really see them as "pronography" but indeed as a game to play which includes erotic content. At least to me there has always been a difference between games which are basically made to replace pronography and very well suited to do so (I'm just naming "The Twist" as an example out of the ones I'm playing from time to time) and those which are aiming to be "normal" games with a lot of erotic content. I think it's important to not mix up those two and I would indeed assign them to somewhat different genres in my mind.
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                        It's not gonna be soon, as my plate is full. But I plan on releasing a game with a D&amp;D feel to it at some point, it'll have combat and progression, and it'll also be the type of thing that shows a game like Lust &amp; Power is poorly paced and grindy. Don't get me wrong, I loved the premise of the game, but it just got too much into the grind with not enough reward to make it worth the effort.
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                     Dancing &amp; Diddling?
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     There's a brothel currently in operation named Inez's D&amp;D btw...
                     <br/>
                     <a class="link link--external" href="http://inezsdd.com/" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">
                      http://inezsdd.com/
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                     Not sure how combat and progression would tie into a brothel though.  Wait, there is that Simbro game that has combat, and even combat sex moves!
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     This bit of obsfucation brought you by Oh Wee.  Now back to your Fantasy RPG discussion... wait this thread is about designers missing the point...
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     -----
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     As for the OP's thoughts, the problem is that you have people that are looking at this game design thing as a source of income, which puts a lot of designers in the mindset of 'how much can I stretch this out while still maximizing my income?'.  Unlike AAA games which get full releases, the game design model here is very incremental, so the more increments you can squeeze in while keeping your patrons on the hook... sure some AAA games do the incremental thing too, but not to the degree you see here.  Unless you want to count Star Citizen...
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     I (not so) lovingly refer to this phenomenon as MMP, or Milking My Patrons.  One notorious example of this has been mentioned already (17 updates and still no sex with the main love interest).  I probably should congratulate the designer on so artfully manipulating his patrons into accepting this as normal (it helps that there is a bit of action on the side with other characters so it isn't completely devoid of vaginal/anal sex), and hence his patrons are willing to put up with it.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     But, of course, you can accomplish almost the same thing (revenue stream wise) by completing one game/story and progressing to the next game/story, which can even be in the same setting.  A perfect example are the Mortze and Tlaero series of games (Finding Miranda, Dreaming With Elsa, etc.).  The stories are all 'self contained', each with decent amounts of erotic action, but they are interconnected, which makes the series of games rather appealing.  And the releases are usually one shot releases (Pandora was a two parter), where you aren't waiting each month for the 'latest update' to that game, but are instead are anxiously awaiting the next game.  I'm sure you can think of a few other examples where the designers do this, although several do a 'hybrid' of the 'multiple releases for a game' along with 'then progress to the next story/part of the story'.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     If your 'game universe framework' is compelling enough, this 'multiple games in the same storyline framework' model can work quite nicely... and you can reuse characters, locations, etc. as appropriate to your story, while introducing new ones as well.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     Just a thought.
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                  <div class="message-userContent lbContainer js-lbContainer" data-lb-caption-desc="redknight00 · May 3, 2018 at 8:12 PM" data-lb-id="post-713758">
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                     For starters I'll quote what I said in another thread:
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                        I've been thinking about grinding, the way I see the main problems when the grind are: progress and fairness. Repeating a scene several times to get to the new content is frustrating because it doesn't give the player a clear sense of progress, a good example is Four Elements Trainer, each scene has slightly variations and marks the progress of the player, so every time they have to repeat a scene it will offer something new and a clear indication that they are going in the right direction.
                        <br/>
                        <br/>
                        The amount is also important as well as a goal to work towards, repeating the same scene 15 times to maybe get a new one is an absurd, grind at its best is encouraging, fair and with objectives, like in a RPG where the player is always grinding to the next level, or repeating a boss for the unique loot. Basic game design also dictates the player should get stronger and more efficient as the story progresses, this way they will feel better with grinding higher number and encouraged to test the increasing powers.
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                     IMO grind, and its VN counterpart the non-ero story, are important, even fundamental for a game of any kind. However, some adult games do tend to go heavy on it, and I think it's because the developers don't have experience with making actual games and just put arbitrary hurdles between scenes without thinking and then play the game in debug mode just to see if it's working.
                     <br/>
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                     Regarding the teasing, my opinion is that is comes from the perspective (both from patrons and devs) that in a story consensual sex is the endgame, and because the developer wants to keeping milking said game they will keep teasing the player until they are ready to move on.
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                        I (not so) lovingly refer to this phenomenon as MMP, or Milking My Patrons.  One notorious example of this has been mentioned already (17 updates and still no sex with the main love interest).  I probably should congratulate the designer on so artfully manipulating his patrons into accepting this as normal (it helps that there is a bit of action on the side with other characters so it isn't completely devoid of vaginal/anal sex), and hence his patrons are willing to put up with it.
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                     I think that's not entirely fair to be honest. Everybody with half a braincell knew nothing would happen anytime soon and calling that manipulation is way over the top. It's plain and simple obvious and part of the game. There are just quite a few people who actually enjoy this kind of slow and at least to a degree realistic and rather well written timeframe as an alternative to the usual fast paced game style of most games. The side action is indeed there to compensate the demands of those who really can't live without at least some sex per update.
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                        But, of course, you can accomplish almost the same thing (revenue stream wise) by completing one game/story and progressing to the next game/story, which can even be in the same setting.
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                     But revenue is not really what it has to be about. If a dev wants to tell a story about characters X and Y getting close and building their relationship it's not really up to us to tell him to shorten his story because it doesn't fit the general narrative of H game developement. At least in my opinion there is a big difference between many short stories and one long story. Each has their appeal but neither is per se good/better or indeed bad.
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                     Last but not least I would never call any of that milking. As long as patreons actually get the content they are promised it's up to them to decide if they like it or not. The milking starts when definite promises are made which then aren't kept (like advertising one would get a sex scene "next update/anytime soon" and then not delivering on those promises).
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                     TLDR TLDR TLDR
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                     Most developers whatever genres or types ... make the game without solid structure how it's start &amp; when it's end. They just expand the story as the developing goes. This is like how Mexican making Soap Opera, when the rating still good or the cast still available, they will keep it making until the end of the world.
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                     Once the rating peaking &amp; start falling dawn, some finally decide to end it with grace, some decide to end it with disgraceful rushed version to save some reputation, some still continue till it drowned to abandoned.
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                     In my book, Virtual Novel is still a novel. It's a novel adapted to a virtual games. So there has to be a finished novel before adapted to other version, in this case a game. With an existed finished Novel, the structure will be solid with some simple change to became a game. Yet, many of these developer didn't make any novel at first. They just making shit up until people start to get bored then end the game.
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                     Say what you will developer, I'm really not interest anymore to Virtual Novel / Story Driven ~ Games without [Completed] Tag on the title.
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                        It's not gonna be soon, as my plate is full. But I plan on releasing a game with a D&amp;D feel to it at some point, it'll have combat and progression, and it'll also be the type of thing that shows a game like Lust &amp; Power is poorly paced and grindy. Don't get me wrong, I loved the premise of the game, but it just got too much into the grind with not enough reward to make it worth the effort.
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                     I think the premise is like an adolescent power fantasy, it's what a pervy teen might fantasize about after being grounded. ''Ooh, I wish I had superpowers so that my mom would have to listen to me! I'd bring her food and she'd have to reward me with seks!'' Not that there's anything wrong with it, I find it refreshingly exploitative.
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                     I don't like fantasy settings but I'll give your game a try if you release it, see what ideas you have. I think L&amp;P works for me because it has a steady stream of content tied to the progression and the next step is never far off. They also change things up towards the current late game, which presumably will be the midgame in the finished version. New items, a store, different combat tactics if you want to harvest hearts, etc.
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                     There are not many porn vids with battles, or battle movies with porn...I don't really get the point of having fighting in porn games, or porn in fighting games.
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                     Same with other obstacles like puzzles, you just don't see them in porn vids. Or porn in puzzle vids for that matter. :biggrin:
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                     Just...why??
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                        There are not many porn vids with battles, or battle movies with porn...I don't really get the point of having fighting in porn games, or porn in fighting games.
                        <br/>
                        <br/>
                        Same with other obstacles like puzzles, you just don't see them in porn vids. Or porn in puzzle vids for that matter. :biggrin:
                        <br/>
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                        Just...why??
                        <img alt=":D" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite674" data-shortname=":D" src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" title="Big grin    :D"/>
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                     I guess that really depends on the main focus of the game. Do you want actual porn? Then you should remove as many grinds and obstacles as possible. Do you want an actual game that's nice to play (maybe even for hours) and that has some erotic content? Then it's something different and it's not only about porn but about acutally playing the game/telling the story.
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                        I guess that really depends on the main focus of the game. Do you want actual porn? Then you should remove as many grinds and obstacles as possible. Do you want an actual game that's nice to play (maybe even for hours) and that has some erotic content? Then it's something different and it's not only about porn but about acutally playing the game/telling the story.
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                     I like story, I don't mind having to do 'stuff' to get to the porn. I'm not interested in fighting though, not in fighting games and not in porn games, so I'm consistent at least.
                     <img alt=":)" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite667" data-shortname=":)" src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" title="Smile    :)"/>
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                     Minigames are fine but not when I have to download something like auto-clicker to get it done, at least make it doable without. I admit I play porn/adult games for the most part for porn/adult content.
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                     Maybe I'm just rubbish.
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                        I like story, I don't mind having to do 'stuff' to get to the porn. I'm not interested in fighting though, not in fighting games and not in porn games, so I'm consistent at least.
                        <img alt=":)" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite667" data-shortname=":)" src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" title="Smile    :)"/>
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                        Minigames are fine but not when I have to download something like auto-clicker to get it done, at least make it doable without. I admit I play porn/adult games for the most part for porn/adult content.
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                     That's what individual taste is for I guess. The problem I often have with those kind of fighting games is that the fighting system is really bad, but for example
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                     is still one of my favourites and has quite a lot of fighting. Luckily there are so many different ones that most of us will find something. I mean there are quite a few people who don't really want to do anything and even they will find their games.
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                     Oh yes, of course, I don't think you should have the player repeating any activity 20 times (there may be exceptions).  To my earlier point, if there is a repetitive activity, you should do your best to make it different each time.
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                     I also don't mind when work or other repeated activities simply take up a time slot and don't make you sit through it.  If you just click and it goes "okay, you worked" that's not that big of a deal.  At the same time, if I have to do three map transitions to get to work and then three more to get home, you're already taking too much of my time.
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                     Again, I'm not arguing for porn activity from start to finish, I'm arguing for meaningful or engaging activities.  If you have a fun combat system and people are into it, great.  The alternative to making "fun" activities is to make them sexy somehow.  Once again, moving the story forward is generally an engaging activity if you have a good story.  As with anything, all of these need to be balanced out.
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                     As far as the progressing by day or time slots, I can take it or leave it.  I generally prefer the method you are considering where you only hit the high points.  I don't mind there being a time progression as long as those time slots are meaningful.  If too many of the time slots I'm essentially "waiting" ie. doing nothing, it becomes tedious.  Also, if it's the situation where I go somewhere and it says "you can't do that now" over and over again, then make it clear before I even try.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     I'm going to get on another slight tangent here.  If the player can't do an activity, try to stop them from even trying as early as possible.  If I got to a location and walk up to the door and then get told I can't do it, just don't let me go there in the first place.  Similarly, if it's the type of game where characters move around to different locations, don't even let me go somewhere that has zero interactions.  What's the point of the player being able to go somewhere where nothing happens?  This gets into something I've touched on before of making it a mystery of the right combination of when, where, and who to get content.  This is not engaging, it's a guessing game.  Players like me will keep trying bad combinations just to make sure we aren't missing anything.
                     <br/>
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                     I guess one exception would be easter eggs or "hidden" content.  Again, it's not really something I want in a game.  If you want me to experience the content, give me an obvious path to that content.  It's fine if a player doesn't get 100% of the content in one play through because of design elements, like say choosing between characters to romance or choosing love vs. lust.  Just don't make me pixel hunt hidden objects or similar time wasters.
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                     Yes, I believe there is a fair amount of developers trying to stretch games out to maximize earnings.  Here's the thing, if the developer is delivering solid content with every update, then have at it.  If the developer is just wasting everyone's time, then why bother.  This is bound to backfire at some point.  If you aren't making what people want, they will stop supporting you.  At least in theory.  If you have a long drawn out story that people are invested in and are willing to wait to see how it ends, that's fine.  If people want it, give it to them.  If on the other hand, people just want you to get to the point already, then get to the point.  I realize things like artistic vision and consumer demand don't always see eye to eye, but I'm not really referring to people who have a plan and a vision they want to deliver on.
                     <br/>
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                     This does become a subjective thing at some point.  How much of the content is erotic and not erotic.  I agree there there are two main camps: the erotic game and the game with erotic elements.  The main difference being the balance of contents.  A game with erotic elements is more of a game first and porn second.  Whereas an erotic game is mostly about the erotic content and giving a story to experience it through.  How much time a VN author spends on the build up or progression before or between erotic scenes is up to them to decide.  Likewise, each person will have varying tolerances for this.  As I've stated several times, I think meaningful story progression is acceptable content.  I don't think wasting the player's time is content.
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                        There are not many porn vids with battles, or battle movies with porn...I don't really get the point of having fighting in porn games, or porn in fighting games.
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                        Same with other obstacles like puzzles, you just don't see them in porn vids. Or porn in puzzle vids for that matter. :biggrin:
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                        Just...why??
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                     I don't know about you but I'm not playing erotic games to get the same thing I get from porn. In fact, I'd go so far as to say I'm playing erotic games because there's something I'm missing from porn. Do all porn games need combat? Certainly not. However combat is a good way to get you invested in your character's story. You see their struggle and desire to see them, set up as the hero, win. For my part, any game in which I design a combat system will make sense to the game, unlike say, early icstor and iccreations titles where the combat was added to pad game time. As I said earlier I have a plan involving a Dungeons and Dragons like plot. I don't think I can actually use D&amp;D names and places though so I'll have to get creative, but it'll be the start. Combat will occur occasionally and in relation to the narrative, but, like a real game of D&amp;D I plan on there being ways to avoid combat as well, if you know your way around the characters and their abilities. However, the MC in this game will be a Warlock pledged to an elder god of lust, and there's your reason for the massive amounts of sexual content I also plan to throw at this game. Tavern wenches, party members, royalty, etc, you'll fuck your way across the continent while both fleeing and searching for a way to defeat the forces of darkness that follow you.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     I'd never put combat into a basic modern brother sister incest game. However I would put it into a superhero game. And that's generally the rule of thumb. Sometimes I want a little sex with my power fantasies, and boy howdy can it be fun when you get to add in different races and mutants and all sorts of other kinky things because you've opened the door with a heightened setting.
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                     CHARACTER DEPTH MATTERS!!!
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                     I agree that people are playing porn games instead of just watching porn for a reason.  They want to be engaged, they want to be pulled into the scene.  So design elements should be set up to support this.  The question should be, is this activity engaging the player?  I think combat is a perfectly valid system to get the player to the erotic content in the right settings.  The onus is on you to make the combat fun and not boring.  Again, it's subjective, but if I find the combat system to be boring and repetitive, I'll look for a way around it or just give up.  If you have my love/lust interest say "I will lay with you if you can slay 20 orcs!" and I have to fight one orc at a time methodically.  The same shit over and over, a few minutes per fight twenty times, no thanks.  If it's "Bring me the dragon's heart to win my favor."  Then I fight a massive dragon and it's fun, cool.  Oversimplified examples, but you get the point.
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                        I don't know about you but I'm not playing erotic games to get the same thing I get from porn.
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                     Well, you're...special. :relievedface: :biggrin:
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                        You see their struggle and desire to see them, set up as the hero, win.
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                     When I play....lose, dead. x'D
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                        Tavern wenches, party members, royalty, etc, you'll fuck your way across the continent
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                     I'm no Prince Charles or Donald Trump, just sayin'.
                     <img alt=":eek:" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite675" data-shortname=":eek:" src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" title="Eek!    :eek:"/>
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                        I'd never put combat into a basic modern brother sister incest game. However I would put it into a superhero game. And that's generally the rule of thumb. Sometimes I want a little sex with my power fantasies, and boy howdy can it be fun when you get to add in different races and mutants and all sorts of other kinky things because you've opened the door with a heightened setting.
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                     No one should ever listen to me about what to put in games, but not even I would have a superhero doing a paper route.
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                  <div class="message-userContent lbContainer js-lbContainer" data-lb-caption-desc="anne O'nymous · May 4, 2018 at 1:48 AM" data-lb-id="post-714371">
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                        Then there is working for your mother, while it does have some scenes, the job proper is largely a hidden object mini game (sigh).  Please stop putting time wasting activities in these games.
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                     Well, I tend to dislike mini-games, but I'm still far to ask authors to remove the "game" in "adult
                     <b>
                      game
                     </b>
                     ".
                     <br/>
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                        The other problem along these lines is what I would refer to as the "slow burn" game.  Where the erotic part of the game is all at the back end.
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                     You know, the more I read you, the more I'm asking myself what you are doing here ? There's a lot of taste among people, and it's fine, but why do you bother with adult games when what you are seeking is in fact porn videos with a plot ?
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                        The thing that baffles me is that the early version of the game has what seems like 100s of rendered scenes but almost none of them are erotic.
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                     No, seriously, why are you loosing your time here when pornhub have all you're looking for ?
                     <br/>
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                        I just feel like with the pure amount of effort that has been put into the game's renders, they are missing the point of the game.
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                     Except that the point of the game
                     <i>
                      A Wife and Mother
                     </i>
                     , is to decide if the mother will be a good wife and stay faithful to her husband, or at the opposite if she'll open to her sexuality. Because, yes, both play are 100% legit. Having a whole play session of an adult game without seeing a single lewd scene is a thing that people can do ; and they like it as much as the session with lewd scenes.
                     <br/>
                     The point is not, never was and never will be, to help you masturbate. So, sorry, but the author is aiming straight to the point of the game.
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                        I personally think they are wasting their time and the player's at this point, though that is bound to change (I hope).  Don't get me wrong, I think the game is high on quality, just low on substance.
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                     <b>
                      You
                     </b>
                     is the key word here ; and in fact in all your post. While I personally dislike it, A Mother and Wife is a highly liked game, for its quality as well as its substance.
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                        In short, please don't forget why people are playing your game.
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                     They aren't, but the fact is that you also aren't part of the people they target. They make game for people who want some kind of entertainment with a content which will be some times lewd, and that exactly what they do. Adult games are the interactive form of adult literacy. They exist to make you fantasy, not to make you fap, they target your brain, not your hand.
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                        The reason we play the games on here is because we want them to be erotic, plain and simple.
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                     Please, don't talk for me. The reason I play the games is because they are entertaining and spice my life with the fantasy they let grow in my mind. Then sometimes I look at a porn movie for a good fap session to end the process.
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                        Well, I tend to dislike mini-games, but I'm still far to ask authors to remove the "game" in "adult
                        <b>
                         game
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                        ".
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                     What constitutes a game can be quite varied.  Especially on here, where many items are visual novels and not games in a more traditional sense.  However, throwing a mini-game into a VN doesn't magically transform it into more of a game.  Especially if it's not engaging.
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                        No, seriously, why are you loosing your time here when pornhub have all you're looking for ?
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                     Obviously it doesn't or I wouldn't be here.  It's a bit reductionist and I feel like you've missed my larger point.  I'm going to go out on a limb and say you only read my first post and not the rest of the thread.  What I'm advocating is that designers not put pointless time wasting elements in these games or VN or whatever you want to call them.  I'm not advocating that everything on this site be wall to wall fucking.
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                        Except that the point of the game A Wife and Mother, is to decide if the mother will be a good wife and stay faithful to her husband, or at the opposite if she'll open to her sexuality. Because, yes, both play are 100% legit. Having a whole play session of an adult game without seeing a single lewd scene is a thing that people can do ; and they like it as much as the session with lewd scenes.
                        <br/>
                        The point is not, never was and never will be, to help you masturbate. So, sorry, but the author is aiming straight to the point of the game.
                        <br/>
                        <br/>
                        They aren't, but the fact is that you also aren't part of the people they target. They make game for people who want some kind of entertainment with a content which will be some times lewd, and that exactly what they do. Adult games are the interactive form of adult literacy. They exist to make you fantasy, not to make you fap, they target your brain, not your hand.
                        <br/>
                        <br/>
                        Please, don't talk for me. The reason I play the games is because they are entertaining and spice my life with the fantasy they let grow in my mind. Then sometimes I look at a porn movie for a good fap session to end the process.
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                     Maybe you are right, maybe I am way outside the target audience for this one.  I don't find the concept of playing a good wife to be particularly engaging.  I have seen games where, like you say, you can get all the way through without any erotic content.  At that point, I have to ask why?  I don't mean why play a game like that, MOST games have no erotic content.  I just don't see the point of playing an erotic game that isn't erotic.  It's like playing a fighting game as a pacifist or a dating sim as a loner.  I guess I see some ironic fun to be had in that way, but it just seems a bit odd to me.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     I wasn't trying to speak for everyone per se.  I was trying to make a larger point.  Yes, I do think erotic games should be erotic, otherwise they are just games or VN.  If you played a something labeled as a space game and they spent the whole time preparing for the journey, but never actually left the ground, you might wonder why it was even called a space game.  I realize different people are looking for different things when it comes to the games on this site.  I guess my assumption (perhaps incorrect?) is that these games should all be erotic in some form or another.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     Again, the main issue I am concerned with is wasting the player's time.  Erotic content aside, imagine you were reading an ebook and halfway through you had to play what amounts to a shitty mobile game to be able to read any more of the book.  Now if you knew this going in, or perhaps if the game tied directly into the story you might accept it.  But if it just shows up and makes you spend 30min not reading the book you want to read, is it a valuable addition?
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                        It's like playing a fighting game as a pacifist or a dating sim as a loner.
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                     Heh, this made me think about Postal 2, where you can get an achievement for getting through the whole game without engaging in combat, even though fighting is the much more natural and satisfying way through the content. But it was a fun challenge going through as a pacifist running away from all the conflicts.
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                        Heh, this made me think about Postal 2, where you can get an achievement for getting through the whole game without engaging in combat, even though fighting is the much more natural and satisfying way through the content. But it was a fun challenge going through as a pacifist running away from all the conflicts.
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                     Yeah, I guess there is something to be said for having the temptation and not giving in.  To me that's just normal life.  I want to punch people in the face on plenty of occasions, but I wouldn't risk the consequences.  Games let you do the things you can't always do in real life, they let you live the fantasy.  So I guess it just doesn't appeal to me in the sense that resisting temptation is far too common in real life and games are escapist fantasy for me.  I would venture a guess that a large majority of people playing the games here aren't looking for the no sex route
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                     At least in the case of Postal 2, the pacifist route is probably the hardest and craziest, because none of the other citizens share your desire for peace. So trying to escape a cult compound being raided by the police, or a meat packing plant full of gun toting rapacious rednecks or any of a number of buildings being overrun or burnt down by extremist protesters/terrorists all becomes insanely difficult when you decide to use nothing but piss and tasers to keep the crazies at bay, lol. Now I kinda want to replay it again. XD
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                        Even that is a bit more than I was talking about. Recently myself and a fellow developer have been talking about breaking away from the daily progression style most games go with. Instead of following our character as he wakes up each day and goes about his day we intend to simply follow them for the important bits. Think of your average television show. You don't follow the character through their boring parts of the day unless its being played for comedy. There's no reason that a similar concept of time and progression can't be applied to our games. For my part, I'm in the midst of writing a story following a girl who's a senior in high school, and the story is going to take a more, and this comparison is mostly related to time, but a more Harry Potter like story progression. We aren't going to follow her to every class, just the ones that are critical to the plot. We aren't going to go to the bathroom with her every day, just when something is going to happen. We aren't going to spend days grinding in between dates, if a date gets set up it will happen, and we will move on.
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                     So NewLife. That one has a weekly schedule and you (the player) only interact during events and to set up the schedule for the week. As for the OP, I mostly agree with you. There really is too much grind in a lot of these games. Granted, it could be worse. It could be something like game-over rape (GOR) which is antithetical to what a video game player wants; a person playing a game wants to win the game, while a person playing a porn game wants to see the scenes which can only be done by losing.
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                     On the opposite spectrum we have things like Kamidori which seems like the porn gets in the way of the gameplay. Hell, there's not really any scenes for the first few hours or so (up to ten for some players) and after that the porn doesn't stop.
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                     There are in general several kinds of ways you can build an erotic game.
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                     1. Strong theme and minor erotic content. The focus is generally on story or gameplay while the erotic content is just icing on the cake. The main theme is generally non-erotic. A visual novel example I can bring up is Muv Luv Alternative (strong story).
                     <br/>
                     2. Balanced theme and balanced erotic content. The game tries to balance between story, gameplay, and erotic content. The theme is at least semi-erotic. An example of that is Long Live The Princess.
                     <br/>
                     3. Minor theme and strong erotic content. The focus is generally on the erotic content, with minimal story or gameplay. The theme is strongly erotic. Some examples are strip poker/mahjong games, match 3 games and the like.
                     <br/>
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                     If your goal is to enjoy erotic content, you should find games of type 3. They have almost no story, they have extremely familiar or simple gameplay, and the you get to ogle at NSFW things almost every few minutes.
                     <br/>
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                     But I get that you - and indeed, most of the user here, I dare say - are looking for light type 2 content. And not just any light type 2 content, but
                     <i>
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                     light type 2 content, or you could've just downloaded a translated Japanese erotic game. That is where I have to disappoint you. The Western erotic game development scene are in general, inferior to the Japanese erotic game development scene. It's not just a difference in culture, but also in experience. There, making erotic games is a legitimate business. Elsewhere, it's a risk that might land you in trouble. Just months ago Patreon banned a specific range of sexual fetishes that in turn, destroyed games that might have had great potential and quality. So I think it's somewhat forgivable that the budding developers of an immature industry that's also under constant assault to produce less-than-ideal erotic games.
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                  <div class="message-userContent lbContainer js-lbContainer" data-lb-caption-desc="anne O'nymous · May 4, 2018 at 11:17 PM" data-lb-id="post-716499">
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                        GuyFreely said:
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                        What constitutes a game can be quite varied.  Especially on here, where many items are visual novels and not games in a more traditional sense.  However, throwing a mini-game into a VN doesn't magically transform it into more of a game.
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                     I have mixed feelings with all your positions on the subject. They are both mostly true and globally wrong. Take this by example, my first intention is to answer something like: it's a good news that there isn't VN with mini-games.
                     <br/>
                     But in the same time, what constitutes a VN ? Basically speaking, a Choose Your Own Adventure is a novel, and interactive novel. And so, what about their numerical versions ? Are they VN, or are they games ?
                     <br/>
                     Therefore, you're right, adding a mini-game to your creation isn't enough to transform it into a game if it wasn't one at first. But you're also wrong, because your comment imply that there's VN with mini-games, which is wrong. This both for Ren'py games available here, even with a definition of VN including "almost interactive stories", and for RPG Maker games which, even when they are limited to walk simulator, tend more on the game side than on the VN one.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
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                     <br/>
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                        Obviously it doesn't or I wouldn't be here.  It's a bit reductionist and I feel like you've missed my larger point.
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                     Like you seem to have missed mine.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
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                        GuyFreely said:
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                        I'm going to go out on a limb and say you only read my first post and not the rest of the thread.  What I'm advocating is that designers not put pointless time wasting elements in these games or VN or whatever you want to call them.
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                     Yet the right/wrong thing... Yes, Authors shouldn't put pointless time wasting parts, but what's a pointless time wasting parts ? To stay on your first comment (for better understanding), you toke the last ICSTOR game as example, using the dad/money thing as proof of your point. But you're wrong, because the problem here isn't at all this part. Yes, you'll need to repeat it a lot of times to reach your goal, but it's not a pointless part, since it will help you advance, neither a time wasting one, because it take you less than 30 seconds. The problem here is the lack of possible occupation during the days needed to reach the right amount of money.
                     <br/>
                     A game isn't bad because it have a pointless time wasting parts, but because it have empty days ; which isn't totally true for ICSTOR game, since you can find things to do, but not necessarily interesting ones. It's not a problem of content, it's a problem of balancing. But here it's more a natural limit than anything else. To have a good balancing, you need to have side content. Take
                     <a class="link link--external" href="https://f95zone.com/threads/6547/" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">
                      Sisterly Lust
                     </a>
                     by example. While the main stories advance slowly, you have three side stories for free ; three girls you don't need to seduce/corrupt.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     But this kind of balancing isn't always a possibility. Firstly because it can goes against the story. In
                     <a class="link link--external" href="https://f95zone.com/threads/4327/" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">
                      Jessie: Mother's sins
                     </a>
                     , the MC is a woman (re)discovering her sexuality through her children. She can't give up to lust else the story lose all its meaning ; if she can fuck with anyone, she don't need her children to be remembered that she's also a woman.
                     <br/>
                     Secondly because it can mean more characters than possible. In
                     <a class="link link--external" href="https://f95zone.com/threads/7982/" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">
                      Lewd Island
                     </a>
                     , you survive a plane crash and end alone with your daughter on an island in the middle of nowhere. Unless you're into fish, there's no possibilities.
                     <br/>
                     Thirdly because the size isn't unlimited.
                     <a class="link link--external" href="https://f95zone.com/threads/5944/" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">
                      A Wife and Mother
                     </a>
                     , that you took as example, use 2.3 Go once archived, and it's still just the version 0.3. If the author don't change the way he deal with CG and the format he use, it will reach 20Go before the end of the story. And an out of control growing size is what you get if you start to include too much side content and/or variations for the repetitive scenes.
                     <br/>
                     There's few games which achieve to conciliate all this and reach a good balancing, it need to make compromise and, because of them, being disliked by a part of the public. So, like they'll be disliked anyway, authors made their choice
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
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                        Maybe you are right, maybe I am way outside the target audience for this one.  I don't find the concept of playing a good wife to be particularly engaging.
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                     I'm not right just for this one (A Wife and Mother), I'm right for all the "slow burn" games. Most of them will end where, for you, they should have started, and that not a problem because it's the purpose of the game. Take
                     <a class="link link--external" href="https://f95zone.com/threads/597/" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">
                      Dating my Daughter
                     </a>
                     by example. With each update you found at least one guy saying, "is it finally for this time, will MC bang his daughter ?". And the same probably happen for any games like this. What they fail to understand is that, mostly, the day they wait so impatiently mark the end of the game. Once he's not just dating his daughter, the game lost his meaning.
                     <br/>
                     Well, for DmD there's potential for a few more, but globally speaking it's still true. I talked about Sisterly Lust. The day the MC will fuck with his three sisters and his mother, the only thing left is to make them accept to be part of his harem. All these games repose on the antici... pation. Once what's expected happen, the game is emptied of all its substance and must end. That's why DmD have potential for a few more content, because it grown more than a single anticipation, but still it will end when the moment the last one will die.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     So, obviously, they're not games for you, because you clearly aren't appealed by the anticipation, you want something right now. Whatever if this "something" is still small at start, as long as it's present almost since the start of the game.
                     <br/>
                     That was the purpose behind my, perhaps a little harsh, "they target your brain, not your hand".
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
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                        I have seen games where, like you say, you can get all the way through without any erotic content.  At that point, I have to ask why? [...] I just don't see the point of playing an erotic game that isn't erotic.  It's like playing a fighting game as a pacifist or a dating sim as a loner.
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                     Why ? Because it's a game before being a game for adults.
                     <br/>
                     Playing a fighting game as a pacifist is one of the best possible pleasure you can get with these games and generally one of the hardest path. As for the point, its to  the beat the game. Everything is designed to make you kill, and still you achieved to reach the end without doing it a single time. One of my best memories in more than 30 years of gaming, is my no kill play on Dishonored.
                     <br/>
                     And the same apply for adult games. All the game is designed to make you give up to temptation, and still you end it virgin. You did it, you don't just finished the game, you beat it.
                     <br/>
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                        I guess my assumption (perhaps incorrect?) is that these games should all be erotic in some form or another.
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                     The incorrectness is on your definition of "erotic". You seem to limit your definition of eroticism at softcore porn, when it's way more than this and start way before this.
                     <br/>
                     All of the games (at least after their version 0.2/0.3) have erotic content. In A Wife and Mother, which have nothing erotic according to your previous saying, the moment she ask her son to help her fix her bra is, both in the dialog and in the CG, fully erotic. In fact it's one of the most erotic scene you can actually find.
                     <br/>
                     What a lot of games miss, mostly because they are at early stage, is porn content. Well, let's compromise here, they miss explicit erotic contents if you want, but they clearly don't miss erotic content. This whatever it's subjective eroticism, like the one I talked above, casual eroticism or regular eroticism.
                     <br/>
                     But once again, eroticism is a question of anticipation. It's a matter of "what will happen next" or, in the particular case of games, "what would happen if", which is also a "what would happen next time". This while what you want is more what follow these questions.
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                        Again, the main issue I am concerned with is wasting the player's time.  Erotic content aside, imagine you were reading an ebook and halfway through you had to play what amounts to a shitty mobile game to be able to read any more of the book. Now if you knew this going in, or perhaps if the game tied directly into the story you might accept it.  But if it just shows up and makes you spend 30min not reading the book you want to read, is it a valuable addition?
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                     It depend of the said game and on what I expected about the book. But the question is not here.
                     <br/>
                     Let's say that I disliked it. I was fooled once, twice, then fooled so many times that I can't take it any more and need to complain about this... and still I continued all this time to try to read books like this, wasting 30 minutes of my life because of a mini-game, when 10 minutes reading the comments about this book would have been enough to know that I will dislike it...
                     <br/>
                     So, the question is more, why am I still trying to read books like this ? Or even, why am I still trying to read e-books when there's real books ?
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     You can look at the rating and the tags, you can read the reviews and comments on the thread. And if you fear to be hooked by the story, then see your time wasted because a wild mini-game will appear in a future update, you can stick to completed games, there's plenty of them here. Hey, you can even goes on the mod section, find the right sticked thread, and ask for a mod which make the mini-games disappear ; but this one is without guaranties of success.
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                     Whilst I agree more with GuyFreely than anne O'nymous I can see each one’s POV. The question boils down to What does one expect from a
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                      porngame?
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                      And that is totally up to the player. As to fapping to a VN it does happen :firstimekiss:because the combined CG and text stimulate the brain to the extent that no other mental stimulii is required for an orgasm. No video porn provides that kind of stimulus. I also believe that different genders and sexual inclination will affect one’s expectations. You both have valid points and you are both right for certain sections of the porngaming world.
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                        So NewLife. That one has a weekly schedule and you (the player) only interact during events and to set up the schedule for the week. As for the OP, I mostly agree with you. There really is too much grind in a lot of these games. Granted, it could be worse. It could be something like game-over rape (GOR) which is antithetical to what a video game player wants; a person playing a game wants to win the game, while a person playing a porn game wants to see the scenes which can only be done by losing.
                        <br/>
                        <br/>
                        On the opposite spectrum we have things like Kamidori which seems like the porn gets in the way of the gameplay. Hell, there's not really any scenes for the first few hours or so (up to ten for some players) and after that the porn doesn't stop.
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                     So, first off... no, not new life. I meant it when I said more like the timeline in a harry potter novel or movie. There's absolutely no reason we should be following our MC on a day by day fashion. I think that it would be absolutely ok, even great, if sometimes weeks pass between one update from a game and the next, if nothing of value would have happened in the intervening weeks. We need to step away from the "I only have the summer" type of games that are counting down the days till the game ends, and move toward games with a defined narrative. Most stories, especially those involving taboo concepts like incest, or corruption happen too fast. Too much is crammed into a few days. DmD, while it gave good reasons for it, crammed so many things into 14 days, that it had to keep inventing reasons that the MC didn't have to return to work. These time constraints harm writers abilities to write a story that is grounded, no matter how fantastical, while also harming pacing.
                     <br/>
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                          Too much to say about how the day to day affects pacing and boxes in narrative
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                         Looking back at the DmD example, it is a game that took 17 updates to finally reach a blowjob. But lets ask ourselves, would it really be possible to get a virginal teenage girl with serious reservations about sex in general but moreso incest to suddenly, within a couple weeks, be not only comfortable with you touching her but any actual sex acts? Unless she was a completely willing participant, motivated right alongside you to do so, the answer is a flat out no. But then there are games with similar premises that move too quickly, like for instance Parental love, in which we are meant to believe that it took, 5? 6 days? for you to come back into your daughter's life and for her to be willing to blow you in front of her Aunt? I'm sorry, no matter how determined she was, I find that pushing it. Now, don't get me wrong, I like Parental Love a lot, and gameplay wise, it's pacing is perfect. Narrative wise it's a bit rushed, and that's the wall that this daily progression system keeps running into. The only game I can think of that has managed to avoid this problem is Babysitter, which did much of what I have suggested should be done with DmD, and throws out any sexual content between Christine and the MC until their relationship had first been established. By doing that, any pace they choose to move forward at can be good, because they took the time to solidify the characters, their relationships, and their motivations prior to things happening.
                         <br/>
                         <br/>
                         I think its important to note, the writer behind Babysitter is the dev I was talking about when I mentioned earlier in the thread that it was myself and another dev who were talking about how we need to move beyond the day to day progression, because it kinda ties our hands. Even when your MC works from home and doesn't have a packed schedule, it's unrealistic to make a major going out event every night, and it's also difficult to keep a story engaging if the main characters are always talking in the same rooms, with no change in scenery. Being able to jump ahead chronologically to important places and events would allow more narrative flexibility and supply good pacing both for the narrative and the gameplay.
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                     I also wanted to talk a bit on grind. Grind, as I've also stated, is what happens when you can't think of a good reason for the characters in your game to want to fuck one another. There are other grind elements, like money, which are often used as a hurdle to pad game time, which generally should be avoided, but for the most part when someone complains about grind it's about the repeated events, the timed delay between them, the randomization, and the fact that for the most part, it makes the character who you're grinding to get content with a passive character. There's a rule in writing that states, in a general sense, that all your characters should be reflections of the central conflict for the MC. For instance, if your MCs goal is to discover who they really are and change for the better, then each of the characters around him should reflect some aspect of that.
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                          Too much to say about eliminating grind through characters who are designed to support the narative
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                         Maybe the MC is a suburban husband going through a midlife crisis, his wife is frigid, and represents a person who's failed to find her own identity, and instead seeks to create identity through material goods. His daughter, a high school student, is just learning who she is as an adult, coming into her own, maybe getting a boyfriend. That boyfriend represents someone who has found who they want to be, someone who embodies the MCs goals. And then we need a villain, preferably the villain should be someone who is denying who they truly are, and in the face of their denial, comes to violence. You might recognize this setup, as it's ripped from the film American Beauty. But translate this same concept to a game like Big Brother, or Man of the House, games known best for their grind, and you start to see the problem.
                         <br/>
                         <br/>
                         Max is a teen who's just coming into his sexual prime, everything with legs and a vagina is fuckable to him, even his family. His Mom is a blank slate maternal influence who is literally whatever the narrative wants her to be at the time, she's completely inconsistent and I often joke, must have multiple personality disorder. The oldest sister is a typical young adult with no motivation these days, she tries to start a makeup blog in a market oversaturated with such things, and fails, she has no forward momentum beyond this to start. Lisa is a bit of a conundrum... like her mother she suffers from inconsistency. If you follow the Olivia route, she becomes much more amicable to different ideas about sex, in fact, seems to mirror Max, but if you don't, she is an antagonist, denying her sexuality and forcing you to harass her till it comes about. Then we get Eric, Eric is finally the first character who absolutely follows the rule, he is a foil for Max because he's a successful, attractive man with the same goal as Max, though there are gameplay problems and narrative issues with Eric, his character is perfect for the game. Then we get Kira, and also like Max, she's a total pervert, I joke in the parody game I wrote for that Kira would be just like max if she'd been born with a dick. So, that's 3/6 main characters who actually fit the narrative. Olivia, if you take that route fits it fine, she's to look back at the American Beauty example, the one who's already realized who she is, and has no real transformation to make.
                         <br/>
                         <br/>
                         Take a look at Man of the House, the MC might as well be Max still, just in a different family, so the thing that we should see reflected in the cast is a need for sexual validation. The only character who he accomplishes this with is the mother, though she's established as your typical maternal type, he goes to great lengths to show that she's sexually frustrated and looking for a man... however he does this by making her refuse to actually look for a man, and by making her hypnotized by the cock, which just doesn't fly. Then you have the older sister, completely antithetical to the MC and his struggle, she's got no dog in this race, her later discovery that she's into being dominated is completely unearned as it's not set up properly, and relies on a convoluted and frankly, weak blackmail plot. The little sister is the same character as Lisa, only more consistent, in that she does want to learn. However since the plot doesn't actually make use of this, instead forcing the MC to grind and repeat events a hundred times to advance, her character just comes off as a bit of a dead fish. Now, there is one character who I'd say fits the bill, that character is the older sister's Friend, the girl from the gym, who, in a way, mirrors the MC with her desire to have a sexual relationship with his sister.
                         <br/>
                         <br/>
                         Now, lets compare them both to Milfy City, a game with the same basic setup, a life sim in a Mother Daughter Son Daughter household, but with virtually no grind in place of narrative. Our MC is actually way more deep, he was crushing hard on a teacher who he felt was returning his feelings, this establishes his character as a bit flawed, but ultimately endearing, as he's simply looking for validation, and then trashes that when she turns him into the laughing stock of the school. Then we have the psychiatrist who seems to be manipulating this need for validation toward sexually gratifying thoughts toward all the women in his life. Then we have his mother, who like the MC has a deep seeded desire for someone, that someone being the MC, her motivations are clear and she reflects the MC's need for sexual validation. Then we have the little sister, a character who is established as a geek and a bit socially inept. She doesn't hang around many boys, and finds her own validation in her gaming skill. But then as her brother, the only boy in her life to pay attention to her and treat her like a woman becomes another source of that validation she begins to crush on him. The elder sister, while seemingly sexually confident, also finds validation in the MC, as he takes photographs of her in lingerie and begins sporting a huge boner, she first seeks to have him taken care of externally, but after hearing for herself how he feels, and then being again faced with his erection at her modelling, she decides to take care of him herself. Each character is seeking validation, and it's through that validation that they advance their narratives.
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                     I'm not going to pull in all the quotes, I'll just try to cover the bases.  First of all, you seem perfectly happy to tell me what I want and what I enjoy meanwhile in your first post you took offense thinking I was speaking for you.  So it's a bit hypocritical.  Maybe we can just discuss the topic without making it personal?
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     I didn't follow your logic on the VN with mini-games section.  I guess in general, I'm not that worried about labels.  I don't want to play a mini-game unless it is particularly fun (subjective) or tied directly to the plot or erotic content.  This extends to almost any element, mini-game or not.  One decent enough example is Daughter for Desert where you go to an arcade and have to beat an old school game to win a bet.  I still didn't enjoy the mini-game that much, but it was tied well into the story, so I rolled with it.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     To be clear, a mini-game that earns X to get Y to move on to something is not, IN MY OPINION, strongly tied to the story.  It's a speedbump, a time sink.  It simply slows you down before letting you continue.  Presupposing that most mini-games are not particularly fun (from experience), I have suggested ways to at least make them erotic since it's an erotic game.  You could, however, make them story driven as well.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     Let's take the hidden object mini-game as an example.  In Milfy City, you clean your mother's office, you look at a screen and find pieces of trash.  While it is
                     <i>
                      thematic
                     </i>
                     it is not story driven (or fun or erotic).  Let's take the exact same mini-game, but now one piece of trash is a crumpled note.  When you pick up the crumpled note, you read it and find out that someone has arranged a meeting in the maintenance closet.  This then let's you go to the closet at the scheduled time and find out your mom's boss is banging his secretary.  Boom, now the mini-game is story relevant and possibly erotic.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     How about a purely story-driven non-erotic mini game?  Let's say you have to take deliveries to various addresses on a map (not uncommon).  What if you go to the Smith's house, but Mr. Green answers the door.  That's odd, Mr. Green is at the Smith's house in the middle of the day while Mr. Smith is at work.  Maybe something is going on here.  How about you go to deliver a package at the Jones residence and the daughter answers the door.  The mother asks who it is and the daughter replies "Oh just &lt;player&gt; from school!" then takes you aside.  She makes you promise to forget about the delivery, maybe she can make it worth your while.  Hmm what's in that package, why is it a secret?
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     IMO, if your mini-game doesn't serve a purpose beyond taking up the player's time, you can just skip it.  -Click- You spend time cleaning your mother's office.  Next scene, move on.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     As far as non-erotic plays of an erotic game, let me be clear.  I don't care if there is an OPTION to do a no lewd play of a game.  Knock yourself out.  I don't think I'd personally bother with it, but it doesn't matter.  I guess the only concern I would have is if the non-erotic options take away from the development of the erotic options.  So many games are half-baked as it is and to spend too much time on an option that seems to be for a minority, could be counterproductive.  However, if a game doesn't contain
                     <i>
                      anything
                     </i>
                     erotic, is it an erotic game?  As you point out, I guess it depends on your definition of erotic.  The son helping with the dress from WAM as you referenced.  I would call it intimate, sensual, evocative maybe, but it falls short of what I'd consider erotic.  If the son began to caress the mother, you start dipping your toes into eroticism.  I will accept that my definition of erotic is not the only definition, but that's how I feel about it.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     Again, my main concern with WAM is the pure amount of time spent on intervening scenes where people are just talking or walking about.  Not that I think those scenes should be taken out, just that there are 100s of renders of ordinary scenes, which I know takes a great deal of time.  As you say, that game at it's current rate will be one of the biggest file sizes of any adult game when it's done (if it gets done).  I would rather fewer rendered ordinary scenes and more story progression.  I fully expect that one to have more erotic content as it moves on, though I may be wrong.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     I feel like I understand the eroticism behind sexual tension and anticipation.  I even enjoy the build up, but I still want the main event.  I realize this is an inherent problem with so many games mid-development that a lot of them haven't progressed that far.  Also, I like there to be a few minor events along the way.  I have a certain tolerance for the anticipation phase and I think it's a difficult thing to balance some times.  Maybe my tolerance is lower than others and that's my own fault.  On the flip side, if some incest game starts out with the mother sneaking into the son's room and riding him I'd be a disappointed with the lack of build up.  Again, there's a balance to be struck.  Some games avoid this with fantasizing or dream sequences, which I think are fully valid if you want to deliver quickly.  Some people might not like this method or see it as cheap, but that's a personal preference I think.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     It seems like your general advice is don't play games with mini-games I don't like.  While that would be one approach to it, my point is don't make games with mini-games players don't like.  There are a lot of games that I enjoy that include these time wasting elements.  I would enjoy them more if they would just cut them out.  I don't see anyone making an argument
                     <i>
                      for
                     </i>
                     wasting players' time.  So can we try to stop doing it?  As a community, we can do better.  That's what I'm hoping.
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                        First of all, you seem perfectly happy to tell me what I want and what I enjoy meanwhile in your first post you took offense thinking I was speaking for you.  So it's a bit hypocritical.
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                     Happy ? What happiness have to do here ? :/
                     <br/>
                     Now, what can I say ? Firstly you blamed me because you thought that I didn't read your other comments, then you blame me because I, really few times in regard of the whole text, summarized what you previously said. Well, why not. It will make answering really easier...
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                        It seems like your general advice is don't play games with mini-games I don't like.  While that would be one approach to it, my point is don't make games with mini-games players don't like. There are a lot of games that I enjoy that include these time wasting elements.  I would enjoy them more if they would just cut them out.  I don't see anyone making an argument
                        <i>
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                        </i>
                        wasting players' time.  So can we try to stop doing it?  As a community, we can do better.  That's what I'm hoping.
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                     So, over the option which imply that you have to filter what you'll play, you want the option where games should be made in regard of your own tastes. You want the community to adapt to your needs, so you'll not have to do works on your own side. And before you start again with the "happy" thing, that's exactly what's explicitly wrote in the two first quoted lines.
                     <br/>
                     All this whatever if there's people who think otherwise. Whatever if they are, or not, more numerous than people thinking like you. Because yes, there's people who think otherwise. There's people who don't see mini-games as time wasting parts, there's even people who want them. But, yes also, they don't feel the need to make a fuss about it, because they aren't under the "dislike bias" ; it's easier to deal with the lack of what you like, than to deal with the presence of what you dislike.
                     <br/>
                     But, well, bad news, game's author will never comply to your demand. They'll continue to make their games the way they want to make them, and as long as they have a public, which is the case, they even have no reason to do otherwise.
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                        Happy ? What happiness have to do here ? :/
                        <br/>
                        Now, what can I say ? Firstly you blamed me because you thought that I didn't read your other comments, then you blame me because I, really few times in regard of the whole text, summarized what you previously said. Well, why not. It will make answering really easier...
                        <br/>
                        <br/>
                        <br/>
                        <br/>
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                        So, over the option which imply that you have to filter what you'll play, you want the option where games should be made in regard of your own tastes. You want the community to adapt to your needs, so you'll not have to do works on your own side. And before you start again with the "happy" thing, that's exactly what's explicitly wrote in the two first quoted lines.
                        <br/>
                        All this whatever if there's people who think otherwise. Whatever if they are, or not, more numerous than people thinking like you. Because yes, there's people who think otherwise. There's people who don't see mini-games as time wasting parts, there's even people who want them. But, yes also, they don't feel the need to make a fuss about it, because they aren't under the "dislike bias" ; it's easier to deal with the lack of what you like, than to deal with the presence of what you dislike.
                        <br/>
                        But, well, bad news, game's author will never comply to your demand. They'll continue to make their games the way they want to make them, and as long as they have a public, which is the case, they even have no reason to do otherwise.
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                     Anne, you and I get along well so I hope you'll understand that I think you're wrong here. Guy has been more than amicable with offering solutions to the perceived problem, and not outright damning its existence. I too share the opinion that a minigame that doesn't serve a purpose to the plot, or that has contrived reasoning is poor game design. I'm gonna look at Life is Strange her to illustrate this, because it has a "minigame" that I plan to incorporate into my own titles, but it also as a sin of inconvenience added to that minigame.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     So, in the game everywhere you go there's a clickable object that either gives you minor story and plot details, or gives you information relative to your game, like all the things you find in Kate's room, which, spoiler for a game that has been out for 3 years, you will need to know in order to stop her from committing suicide. In another part of the game though you have to look through Chloe's garage in order to find tools to hopefully fix your camera. When you are there there's plenty to find out, but what I'm going to talk about now is the silly puzzle you have to complete rather than just getting on your knees and reaching for something. You see, once you get whatever it is to fall, if you haven't moved things around just right, it rolls under the stuff, and makes you reverse time to get it right... seriously, it's just a time sink at that point. Looking around, finding clues, being able to piece together a story from the data you have in order to affect the story in a positive way, this is a good use of a minigame. But a random puzzle in the vein of all those old PC adventure games, nah, you're just wasting my time.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     I'm absolutely ok with the existence of gameplay mechanics and minigames within the media. What I'm not ok with is time sinks. A perfect example is the Rock Paper Scissors game from Milfy City. That is just there to make you spend time earning a virtual currency so that you can purchase virtual items from the stores in the game. Give me some other way to earn money. Maybe, you could do something like Summertime Saga, with the rap battles in the park, only with money on the line. And moreover, have winning those rap battles lead to a relationship with a character who's into that. Or maybe give me a set amount of money at the start of the game, with the promise of a weekly allowance or paycheck that forces me to use my money responsibly to get the items I need most when I need them, and not splurge all at once, forcing me to play the game, but not making me sink time in a boring minigame. Someone earlier, might have even been guy, suggested a minigame for work as a masseuse. many games add massage content to them already, Big Brother, School Love and Friends, Max's Life, Dating my Daughter, etc. Why not take that to the next step, have our MC be a part time masseuse, go to an appointment and begin a massage, if they're successful, do the steps for the person just right, maybe following a key press pattern or something, they'll get a better tip, and maybe, with some customers, this could even turn into an erotic massage session, earning a bigger reward, and sexual content.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     Minigames don't have to be boring random chance generators. They can be fun and engaging. And that is the point Guy is trying to make. If you can't make a minigame that is fun and engaging then don't make a minigame.
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                        So, obviously, they're not games for you, because you clearly aren't appealed by the anticipation, you want something right now.
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                     Since you seem to think I'm unjustly accusing you, this is the kind of statement I'm referring to.
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                     On the topic of what is erotic and not erotic and what makes for a good erotic game, that's up for debate.  I'm not saying every game needs to be for me.  My larger concern is not really about like or dislike, it's about good or bad game design.  If there are people out there who like disjointed mini games and repetitive tasks like doing the same loop on multiple game days with very little change, I'd love to hear from them and find out why.  I think people are more than likely willing to put up with certain game elements or "don't mind" them more than like them.  Even then, I'm not saying no mini-games.  I'm saying everything you have in your game should serve a purpose and not just waste time.
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                     [Edit: yeah, pretty much everything DarthSeduction said above.]
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                  <div class="message-userContent lbContainer js-lbContainer" data-lb-caption-desc="anne O'nymous · May 5, 2018 at 8:30 AM" data-lb-id="post-717948">
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                        Anne, you and I get along well so I hope you'll understand that I think you're wrong here. Guy has been more than amicable with offering solutions to the perceived problem, and not outright damning its existence.
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                     Perhaps that I'm too old for this shit (and obviously I don't mean this thread in particular, but this kind of "yet another what they are all missing" thread), or too tired. Or perhaps that my son starting to live on his own and my daughter being 17yo since a week, made me more sensible. But the french guy in me is screaming seeing this thread. Voltaire, Montaigne, Rousseau, everybody is prompt to quote them and their defense of individual liberties, of thought as well as of act, forgetting that this defense imply that you should also respect the liberties of others, because they have the exact same than you.
                     <br/>
                     What I mean is that, whatever what I can think on the subject itself, and you probably remember that I mostly agree, the way he expressed his thoughts is a totally different thing. And even after reading it again, I fail to see the acknowledgment ("ckn", "dgm", seriously English !) that it's just his opinion and that there's a lot of people around here that don't share it and have the right to see their own view about games being satisfied.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     How can someone explicitly say that ICSTOR was just close... He's on the scene since enough time to know what his public want. And seeing that he made around 400 new patreons since he launched his new game, sorry but he succeeded. His public mostly don't care about his mini-game, when they don't simply like it.
                     <br/>
                     Same for the complain about A Wife and Mother. He have the right to not like it, as I said, I dislike it myself but not for the same reason. But, sorry again, this game is a hit for a lot of people, the fact that he don't like it doesn't made it "an example of what not to do in these situations". It's the opposite since it's just one among a lot of almost interactive visual novel, and one of the really few to have a real success.
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                        I too share the opinion that a minigame that doesn't serve a purpose to the plot, or that has contrived reasoning is poor game design. I'm gonna look at Life is Strange her to illustrate this, because it has a "minigame" that I plan to incorporate into my own titles, but it also as a sin of inconvenience added to that minigame.
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                     That's the other point which bother me in his saying, and thanks to you to illustrate is in a so beautiful way. There's what the author want, and there's what he need to do. It's something which will perhaps never lead to a reality, but few convinced me and I'm working on my own title. Well, I'm facing both the grinding problem and the mini-game dilemma. This said, don't expect anything before your grand children wedding, I let it grow slowly while I'm writing it.
                     <br/>
                     More seriously, you'll put a mini-game in your title. Not because people asked for it, not because you like them, but because... Just this, "because". In this particular case it's partly a personal pleasure, but there case, not this rare, where it's the less lame solution to the problem the author is facing.
                     <br/>
                     It doesn't mean that it's always the only solution, nor that all mini-games are/were needed. Like it doesn't imply that it should be a boring thing. Just that there's time when you can't really avoid it. What's the lamest ? "You passed your day at work, you earned $10, please click to continue the game", or a mini-game, so something depicting the working action ? For some authors the answer is "the screen", for other it's "the mini-game". And both are as right as they are wrong.
                     <br/>
                     It became worse when you've the choice between two jobs, one offering more than the other. What the matter of this choice if the job is just a screen ? Take summertime saga. Whatever the quality of the mini-games, with one you've an easily earned small amount, and with the other a bigger amount but you'll have to won it. The mini-games can probably be better, but they have a real purpose. It offer a real choice to the player, a choice which don't exist if it's simply an "you worked" screen.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     Same for the grinding, which is sometimes the less lame way to deal with the fact that you can't seriously thought that saying one time, "you're mine, you'll do everything I ask you because you live to please me", is enough to corrupt a girl's mind. It doesn't mean that it must be the exact same scene every time, just that despite the boring feeling, it's the best way to deal with the problem in regard of the time needed and the available space on the disk. Here, I'll once again address A Wife and Mother, and it's 2.3 GB (grr, speak english, not french !) at the 0.3 stage.
                     <br/>
                     Take dreaming of Dana by example. A pure grinding game, but a good game and a liked one. Ptolemy can have made it less repetitive, he can have made change in the scenes, but at which cost ? The last none WEBP version was more than 7 GB once compressed, and it's still over the 1 GB now. Making these change in the scenes would have added one or even two giga. It's just like that, sometimes there's simply no other possibilities ; at least with Ren'py, since Unity can use real time rendered scenes, and so open the gate to more variety for a small cost in space, especially once compressed.
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                        In another part of the game though you have to look through Chloe's garage in order to find tools to hopefully fix your camera. [...] seriously, it's just a time sink at that point.
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                     I agree, but do you see the difference between your, "at that point", and his, "Ah, you were so close ICSTOR" ? You address the way it was done (which is expressed more explicitly in what you said just after this), while he address the fact itself.
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                        [...] have our MC be a part time masseuse, go to an appointment and begin a massage, if they're successful, do the steps for the person just right, maybe following a key press pattern or something, they'll get a better tip, and maybe, with some customers, this could even turn into an erotic massage session, earning a bigger reward, and sexual content.
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                     There's a game, in Flash if my memory is correct, which is exactly this. Don't expect a name, I've played too many and can't remember anything except that MC is a girl starting a new live and that her job is exactly this.
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                        Minigames don't have to be boring random chance generators. They can be fun and engaging. And that is the point Guy is trying to make.
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                     Well, perhaps it have to do with the language barrier, but it's not really clear in the way he address the problem and express his thoughts.
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                     Just as a bit of constructive criticism from someone who stopped reading a page or so back. Comments in a discussion thread should generally be less than a single screen in length whenever possible. If I have to scroll to read all you have to say, I am almost certainly just going to skip most of it. I doubt I'm all that unique on that opinion either. I know things can get heated and we all have a lot to say, but please show some respect for your fellow community members and their precious time by pruning down your thoughts to the most important bits before posting.
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                        A pure grinding game, but a good game and a liked one. Ptolemy can have made it less repetitive, he can have made change in the scenes, but at which cost ?
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                     Honestly, at the cost of his pseudo life sim format. I love the story with Dreaming of Dana, but the repeated interactions to earn an arbitrary number of points to advance to the next part of the plot could be completely rid of, especially considering you've gotten rid of the stairway to heaven question with both the secretary and the swinger chick by the very nature of having fucked them almost immediately after meeting them. There is no reason his game couldn't have mechanically been a VN. He simply tried to replicate the Life Sim style without needing it to tell his story.
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                        Same for the grinding, which is sometimes the less lame way to deal with the fact that you can't seriously thought that saying one time, "you're mine, you'll do everything I ask you because you live to please me", is enough to corrupt a girl's mind. It doesn't mean that it must be the exact same scene every time, just that despite the boring feeling, it's the best way to deal with the problem in regard of the time needed and the available space on the disk. Here, I'll once again address A Wife and Mother, and it's 2.3 GB (grr, speak english, not french !) at the 0.3 stage.
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                     As I often say, Grind is the result of a developer not having a narrative reason for his characters to have sex. Take a look at most games with grind and you'll find that the female characters are dead fish. They have no personality beyond a handful of traits thrown at the wall in narration at the beginning. They make no choices on their own, they have to be constantly pushed by the MC to do anything. When it comes to Grind, nowadays I like to point to Milfy City. It, mechanically speaking, is a life sim. But in spite of that fact the only grind in the game is the minigame grind to get money to buy the camera and stuff. Another example would be Mythic Manor, also mechanically speaking a life sim, however there's no grind. Are the file sizes larger? Sure. Mythic Manor even gets away with recycling a lot, since a lot of conversations with the characters will take place in the same places they always do, and they can often recycle poses and whatnot to accomplish this as well, but the content is varied enough with new dialogues and new things to do that you don't really care that the conversation reused old renders.
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                     In both games you are able to advance the plot through narrative and activities. But not repetition. And that's the key. It's not grind if everything you do advances the plot.
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                     I do think perhaps we have some miscommunication, language barriers, etc.  Let me try to clarify at least one thing.  I think ICSTOR is making a solid game in Milfy City.  I don't think it's bad by any stretch.  Could it be better? In my opinion, yes.  The two things that stick out to me are the Rock, Paper, Scissors computer game to make money and the cleaning mom's office mini game.  I already provided a way in which the cleaning game could be made more relevant.  I'm sure there are other ways as well.  In its current state, I don't feel like it adds anything to the game.  If you want to tell me what you think it adds to the game, I'd be happy to discuss it as a specific example.
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                     For the Rock, Paper, Scissors game it's literally you press a button with an equal chance to lose or gain money (can also draw which doesn't affect the game state).  It's not explained as to why it is there and doesn't seem to connect to the story at all.  At least the cleaning game is related to working for your mother.  My hope is that this is actually some sort of placeholder, that they plan to put in a better solution later.  If that's the case, then I'll wait to see if it sticks around in later versions to judge it.
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                        Just as a bit of constructive criticism from someone who stopped reading a page or so back. Comments in a discussion thread should generally be less than a single screen in length whenever possible. If I have to scroll to read all you have to say, I am almost certainly just going to skip most of it. I doubt I'm all that unique on that opinion either. I know things can get heated and we all have a lot to say, but show some respect for your fellow community members and their precious time by pruning down your thoughts to the most important bits before posting.
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                     Excuse me? Show some respect for your fellow community members you say, whilst admonishing us for having a discussion that's too long for your personal sensibilities? You're the one being disrespectful by being dismissive and frankly pompous in making this request that we shorten our commentary to accommodate you. If it's not worth your time, then fine, don't participate, but don't you dare tell me how much I can say in a post, especially when there's a lot to talk about in such a broad subject.
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                     Lol, it is funny how you are getting all bent out of shape, Darth, when I thought you were one of the few who were generally being more concise with your posts in this thread. Anne's post have been the worst offenders here on the long winded front, and some of Guy's as well, but mostly when responding to anne. This has been an interesting thread, but about half way in it just stopped being worth following because so much of what was being said didn't really need to be. I'm not demanding anyone pay heed to my advice, it was meant as a helpful reminder that this is a public forum and not a personal journal. If you want to be heard, it tends to help if you stay brief enough to not lose your audience.
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                        Lol, it is funny how you are getting all bent out of shape, Darth, when I thought you were one of the few who were generally being more concise with your posts in this thread. Anne's post have been the worst offenders here on the long winded front, and some of Guy's as well, but mostly when responding to anne. This has been an interesting thread, but about half way in it just stopped being worth following because so much of what was being said didn't really need to be. I'm not demanding anyone pay heed to my advice, it was meant as a helpful reminder that this is a public forum and not a personal journal. If you want to be heard, it tends to help if you stay brief enough to not to lose your audience.
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                     I mostly took umbrage with the confrontational nature of your statement. It was, as I said, pompous. I see the value in brevity and try to make my points as clearly, but in as few words, as possible. However even I have made some really long ones, one on this very page where I had to put several paragraphs behind spoiler tags because I felt it was bloated, but still necessary to get the point across. It's sometimes difficult to cover such complexity in few words. That's all I'm saying.
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                     Ya, I agree, I even really appreciated it when I saw you put some stuff behind spoilers and ended up reading them, probably because of that show of respect to everyones time. Some times things can't be said in a few words and that is why I said "generally". I've made plenty of long posts myself, but I always go over what I've typed and cut out what I can before I hit the post button. I regularly toss out half or more of what I've written in my replies, heh.
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                     To keep things on track, I'd love to hear other people's opinions on the topic of parts of games that seem to waste players time.  I think we went on a bit of a tangent, and it's largely my fault, of what constitutes an erotic game.  That could be a separate discussion really.
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                     For me the big offenders on time wasters are pointless running around in games with maps. Usually this is down to poor planning, some times its intentional with time wasting in mind. It generally shouldn't take more than 3-5 clicks/transitions to get anywhere in an ero game, unless it's some grand RPG with a big world worth exploring or a fun platformer game, but really how common are either of those in the adult market?
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                     Another, that has already been covered fairly well here, is excessive money and stat grinds that don't generally pay off all that well for the effort and time wasted. These just get worse when they entail RNG-based mini-games to gate progress.
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                     The only other big one I can think of off hand, that I'm pretty sure has been covered already, is poorly offered dialog options that rely on a player's guessing to send them down different routes, which will often require a lot of reloading/backtracking to find the route you actually wanted.
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                        Honestly, at the cost of his pseudo life sim format.
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                     Well, I was addressing the size, but you're not wrong. Especially since the late events are purely VN style.
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                        As I often say, Grind is the result of a developer not having a narrative reason for his characters to have sex. Take a look at most games with grind and you'll find that the female characters are dead fish.
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                     I agree with the dead fish, but can't completely agree with the narrative reason. Not that you are wrong, but you're not necessarily right either.
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                     I'll take a concrete example, your roommate is a bimbo you want to fuck. It's the classical "behind closed doors" found actually, and I'll not go for the mother/sister because what will follow make no sense in this case. Each morning you see her while eating the breakfast and greet her. You see her during the dinner, and compliment her if she's the one who cooked. You can cook, you can make some cleaning. It's a natural behavior and the more you do it, the more strong will be your relationship.
                     <br/>
                     Now, the author need to give some points because he don't want a pure VN, he want to implicate the player and make him earn the content. Those events are a good occasions to give the points, but then come the problem. Once you've given 1 point because the MC greet her in the morning, why should you stop the next morning ? In the same time, it imply that you can't have a, "she'd one point, she'll be more lewd now" situation, because on a single day the player can earn 4 points.
                     <br/>
                     It's the problem that most authors are facing because of the narrative format they've chose. Once they start with the conventional (in an IRL way) path to make the day advance, they feel trapped by it. Both giving points and don't giving them seem meaningless in these situations.
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                     But, like I said, it don't completely invalid your point. The format make it more difficult to make these parts more narrative, but it don't make it impossible. And effectively, here come the lack of reason behind the situation. Why are you here, why do you want her, and more importantly, why haven't two you already did it ? If there's answer to these questions, then you've your narrative content.
                     <br/>
                     Don't know, you haven't did it because she was still in couple few days ago, and the break-up was hard for her, so you'll have to works hard, to comfort her, to make it clear that you aren't like him, and thinks like this. A compliment will not works, you'll have to make her accept it at first. So while you'll have the point because you were gentle, the dialog will describe another situation, evolving with the time. At first you'll have to fight with her to make her accept it as a sincere compliment, then the fighting will be less hard, and so on until the day she'll accept it. All this don't necessarily need to be real narrative parts, at least in a strictly speaking ; it's just the dialog which evolve with time.
                     <br/>
                     And, yes, here most authors fail completely. They also fail in a coding way. They don't necessarily need to give significant points. To keep my example, you'll start to earn points only after the fifth won fight, because it's only at that moment that she start to think that, perhaps, you are sincere. So, there's the "compliment points", which are more a internal counter than anything else, and only make this scene advance. And there's the "relationship points", which make the story advance.
                     <br/>
                     Still, it's not really narrative, even if it's also not completely grinding. An in between not used enough, probably because hard to take under control. If the player avoid the breakfast during half the game, he'll have to fight against her lack of confidence in his sincerity, while she was blowing him good morning two minutes before.
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                        In both games you are able to advance the plot through narrative and activities. But not repetition. And that's the key. It's not grind if everything you do advances the plot.
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                     But it is if it just advance a part of the plot. See my example above like a mandatory side quest to achieve if you want to being able to advance the main one. Still it's narrative, have a meaning and don't feel too much like grinding, because it's less repetitive playing it, that it is coding it.
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                     [Note, it's 5AM, hope I haven't too messed my thoughts.]
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                     I'm with you on these.  As soon as I see something is RPGM and has multiple map transitions I'm immediately worried.  It doesn't guarantee that it's a bad design, but I've seen it be a burden many times.  This was even worse in The New Life when each map transition cost you an hour of the day as well.  I figured out how to use the bus system to cut down on this, but that was pretty clunky too.  I don't fault people for using RPGM, especially if it's a more exploring or even adventure game.  If it's just going to be a couple key locations you go to often though, I much prefer a simple map with all locations in one screen.
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                     The dialogue options one is tricky.  I think that's partly a design choice.  Some people want to have failure states and optimal paths.  My personal preference is when there is no "wrong" choice (instant game over).  I much prefer when the choices just lead to different results and it's up to you if you want to try the other paths.  I talked in a separate topic on what breaks games for you on this in more detail.
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                     Oh god, that is something I totally hate, games with excessive travel time penalties! Glassix is a notorious one on that front for me. In general I am the same, where when I see the RPGM tag it is an automatic strike against the game for credibility, but not something that makes me write it off on its own. Having grown up in the '80s I used to love a good RPG. I like the concept of a top down game world, but devs really have to have a good justification for going that route in an ero game and most just don't.
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                     As far as choices, they only tend to annoy me when I am playing a game where I want to go after a particular girl/ending and I don't want to use a guide. If I can't just naturally make choices with that desire in mind and get to her good/bad endings, then I consider that a failure on the part of the game dev(s) and usually down to there being a lot of arbitrary guess based choices along the way. This is the kinda thing that often dissuades me from trying many of the really big VNs that tout a lot of endings and 30+ hours of play time as I know I'm almost certainly going to need a guide to navigate to the endings I'm actually interested in, which is a real shame as I want to love long VN games. I love to read good fiction, even when there's little to no sexual content, but so many devs lay out their choices so poorly to the point I'm now gun shy about giving other games the benefit of the doubt.
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                     TLDR; if you want to make a good RPGM game at least consult anyone of the thousands of Japanese RPGM games that are out there.
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                        anne O'nymous said:
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                        I agree with the dead fish, but can't completely agree with the narrative reason. Not that you are wrong, but you're not necessarily right either.
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                     For the sake of brevity I'll just quote this one piece, but to your example, because it's so similar to Man of the House, I'll be relating it to that in how I, still keeping the life sim format, and following the game, would have managed this type of interaction.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     *I haven't played this since December or January, but since this game was the one that was essentially my last straw in playing games that just irritated me, inspiring me to become a developer, I remember it's flow more than specific details like names, so forgive me for not remembering them.
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                     <br/>
                     Little Sister - Now, the little sister is the typical little sister route in a Life Sim. You have to help her with her homework, and eventually this leads to sex ed. Basic fantasy nothing great about it, but nothing wrong with it. The study sessions themselves are just a render of you two sitting and hitting the books, but there's no substance to them, they're just, like with many work situations in these games, click and time passes. On top of this you greet her in the morning and compliment her, if you're in the dining room at the correct time, and you can choose to watch a film with her each night. Now, after you help her pass, I believe it was her math test, she advances things with you, and you can move on to other subjects, eventually landing on Anatomy or Biology or whatever. I think, before that, you have to have watched a romantic film or two with her, and kissed her then, not sure, but once you do the bio homework you get the curiosity bug and the making out. Things progress from here though almost entirely on an accumulation of points through repetition. You will also get her to sleep in the same bed as you only if you watched a horror movie, which on top of being repetitive, seems a bit silly, because there should come a point where you can simply invite her to sleep with you.
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                         First off, there'd be no dialogue with a character that didn't serve a purpose. If you see your sister in the morning at breakfast, I am going to write a dialogue scene that is relevant to where you are in her progression, maybe more than one, to space things out for the sake of some anticipation, but each will be unique. Once you've passed a point in the game where you have no more progress to be made, she'll either not appear at all (like Milfy City did with the little sister once you cleared her route) or she'll be there and the exchange of pleasantries will occur but nothing else, because you have nothing to talk about. On the subject of what dialogue will occur, it will be, as I said relevant to where you are on her arc. There may be some choices you have to make that can raise or lower affinity, or deviate between a corruption or romance route, depending on how you wanna play it, but the overall flavour would be one of relevance to the plot.
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                         With the tutoring sessions, I'd actually take the time to write them out, maybe play it for laughs with some choice dialogue where you're helping her and she's gotta find the Hypotenuse, and I'll give you the choice for what to teach her being, Theory of Relativity (E=mc^2), The War of 1812, Pythagorean Theorem (a^2+b^2=c^2), and Godwin's Law (ITS NAZIS). Or I could simply make it dialogue, without the humorous choices, telling her how to set up the equation. Then I'd do the same for History, picking an event that everyone knows something about, like WWII, and either joke answers with a the obvious answer thrown in, or simply some quizzing on dates or something along those lines. Other subjects would get similar treatment down the line until we reached a point where the study sessions no longer served a purpose to the narrative.
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                         Then we have the nightly movie, and to be honest, this is the one I'd change the most. A movie would be changed to a scripted event that happens when another condition of the plot has been met, maybe you've been studying together for a while and are getting closer, so you watch a movie together. Now, it would stay a possibility during that hour every day until you did it, thereby not forcing you to miss something because you didn't know, but still giving you something. Then, like other games have done, I'd give a play by play that totally describes a popular film, but with fake actors or a fake name. For instance The Spiralbound, and it's about a hot young actor who gets the girl to date him by cucking her current date and threatening to kill himself and then they have a torrid love affair that leaves you crying from it's emotional ending. You know, fun stuff. These would only occur at certain points, so I wouldn't have to repeat films, and I could write a funny synopsis every time to keep the audience invested in the activity. Then, after or maybe during, each film viewing I'd advance their physical relationship in some way, starting with the kiss as it already does, but changing things up with other means and methods later, cuddling, stealthy hand/blowjobs, the horror movie or two that gets her crawling into your bed. Etc.
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                         Then, instead of her catching you watching porn, I think I'd do it the other way around. Sometime after you've made out and gotten so hot and heavy that you've each orgasmed, but before you have moved to actual sex acts, I'd have you on your way to your room one evening, overhear moaning or dirty talk through her door, you'd open it to find her practicing on a vegetable or something. Of course, she'd freak out at first, but then, as you go to leave she'd say, "wait!" and you'd advance to a BJ. Now your study sessions would be able to end in oral, maybe 69. And I'd actually let you, though there'd be less time in between advances to the plot in my version, repeat the sex acts in the study scenes, as well as the one's I'd add to the bathing scenes.
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                         Its now, that she's advanced to the point of an actual sex act with you that things are gonna hit a climax, a point where a decision has to be made about whether or not this is gonna be serious. I think I'd go with another movie, doesn't matter what ofc, because I'm gonna have them completely ignore it as they get caught up making out. Only mom is gonna catch them. This will get the little sister and you separated maybe mom would make the sisters swap rooms or she'd start coming upstairs to make sure you'd both gone to bed and locking your door from the outside, or something (which would be totally possible because you can bet your ass I'm not keeping the stupid mom gets hypnotised by the cock narrative.) It would be the little sister's decision to circumvent this on her own, joining you in your room at night after mom went to sleep, that would be the turning point. From there on things get more and more sexual between you two, with sex acts to be performed at multiple locations on any given day, which I'd try to make unique and changing, adding in the threesome with the friend and other neat ways to keep it interesting.
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                     The Mom - God do I hate this line. So, with mommy dearest, you have the getting her drunk so you can get further with a massage part, then the convenient conversation with the aunt about how any dick will do at this point, then the god awful hypnotized by the dick part, and finally the Psychologist fake out which rounds this out to one count of date rape and several counts of impersonating a medical professional as well as sexual assault. As you can see I really don't like this line. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for a good corruption plot, but I don't think this is one, and moreover, I don't think this particular path works with this mom.
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                         This one needs a page 1 rewrite. Seriously the only thing I'm keeping from this narrative is the yoga and the chores, which I'm only keeping for what they do with the older sister route. Because I've played enough of these games, I think I'd probably have to make the mom similar to the one in Milfy City, but earlier in her realization of this. By the time we meet the mom in Milfy City she's almost completely thrown caution and her preconceived notions about sex with her son to the wind. No, here I'd have her just now beginning to realize her attraction to him, and moreover, reacting negatively and pushing him away as well as becoming more suspicious of him, resulting in her hyper reaction to seeing him with the sister. And I think that might be the trigger I use for this plot. Mom, at first, freaks out at the prospect of all the things she's feeling, but then, as she sees her two children kissing passionately something like a dam breaks inside her and she can no longer resist. It will be at that point when you, as the MC can start to corrupt her. She'll want to keep a closer eye on you, to keep you away from your sister, she tells herself, but also to keep you close.
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                         During certain hours, when she's home, she'll require you to be in the same room as her, and its during this time taht you can start slowly probing her defences. Starting with something innocuous, maybe a hug that lasts too long, maybe you watch a movie and you nestle your head in her lap. After that she loosens up some so you offer her a foot rub. The foot rub turns to a full leg massage. Getting lost in her lust she doesn't even realize that you're just doing this to get a view of her kitty beneath the robe. The conversation you overhear with her sister now becomes one of her kinda freaking out, saying she needs to get some soon, because she's starting to think of you in ways she shouldn't. The sister will set her up on a date, and you'll follow, maybe sabotage, maybe just observe as she realizes there's no spark, and leaves. It's not just any man she needs, its you. That will lead to a much more mature advancement to sex than with the little sister, who required the stairway to heaven because of her inexperience. Mom, being a big gir, won't have that issue, and will start doing things with you if you ask, reluctant at first, but quickly giving in to her lust. And from there the things you'll ask her to do will get more and more depraved, though not on the same scale as the older sister, who has the submissive route.
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                     <br/>
                     The Older Sister - This is the route I am the most mad at. The little sister and mom routes not being great is whatever, they're pretty basic routes, but this one had potential because in comparison to it's contemporaries in the genre, it was relatively unique. It starts with tropey older sister is a bitch. Then it has her call you late at night to pick her up at the police station because she got picked up and doesn't want mom to know, so you blackmail her, and this is fine, until you push it too far and she reverses the blackmail on you. Then, you blackmail her again, but this time with her boss, and while getting her to do your chores, accidentally discover that she has a submissive streak, and start turning her sub.
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                         In my version one major change has to be made. The older sister already knows she is a sub. In my version, the reason she gets arrested is because her boyfriend, some Christian Grey (50 shades) type rich asshole, ordered her, without panties, to give a lapdance to some guy, and his wife, after coming out of the restroom, is the cop who arrests her for public indecency/exposure. Now, the boyfriend was the first person she tried to call, but he abandons her, forcing her to call her little brother. You come and pick her up and when you ask what happened, the desk officer only gives you a little of the info, as the arresting officer didn't want her husband in the report she omitted the full details of the event, booking her for disorderly conduct and public drunkenness or something instead. But the desk officer does mention that she felt like it was something more serious, and the sister's mum silence seems to confirm that. So, out of curiosity you end up going to the gym and talking to her co-worker about it. It's her who tells you about the boyfriend, but not the details of what happened, because even she's not clear on it. Then you go to the club and ask around, find out more about the boyfriend and how he's always making her do degrading things.
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                         Later, you come home and find your sister crying. Apparently he's just up and vanished. Got bored with her, blocked her number, doesn't show up at the club any more, doesn't live in his old apartment, nothing. And in her sobbing comes the full truth of what happened. And here is where the blackmail comes in. You look at her, the bitch who's always been abusive to you, and you push down your pity in pursuit of vengeance. You have found out, in the course of your investigation into it all, that if her boss knew about this she'd be fired. So you hit her with the double whammy, you tell her you know all about the dirty things she's been doing. What a bad girl she is, emphasizing phasing like that which will trigger her kink, and telling her she's going to start doing everything you tell her to do from now on, or first you'll tell mom about her extracurricular activities and criminal record, and if she screws up again, you'll tell the boss.
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                         <br/>
                         Just like in the base game she's at first rebellious. Sure she's into being dominated, but you're still her punk ass little brother. It takes you making some moves to solidify your dominance over her before eventually you end up in the same situation as the game gives us, where she throws the laundry all over the bathroom, in the sink and tub and toilet, as well as just sitting there, smug. A switch flips in you, and you, in a commanding tone tell her to stand, startled at first, she finds her self standing. Then you tell her to turn around and put her hands on the wall or the sink or whatever. Still reacting to the tone, and your dirty language, calling her names like slut and bitch, and as she does, without warning, you swat her ass. WHACK! she yelps, but then a her intake of breath sounds less like a gasp of pain and more one of passion. WHACK! you smack her ass again, and she yelps, and before she can catch herself she moans the word harder. And here I'd create a branch, one for people who are into some light s&amp;m, and one for people who are into depraved shit. In the first, you pull her panties down, getting a negative reaction at first, but then with another spank, you get her moaning. The other would have you stop. You'd tell her, no, if you like this you'll see it as a reward for you bad behaviour. Instead, you will clean this mess up. With your mouth. And you'll stand there and watch her as she picks up all the clothing with her mouth, even what was in the toilet.
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                         <br/>
                         After that, her route will advance pretty much the same way, only with a depraved route and a more vanilla route. You'll have her do things in public, you'll have her quit wearing panties, you'll have her doing things like morning blowjobs after which she thanks you for her breakfast, etc. Things will be more and more sexual including other women, like her friend, and maybe even some harem routes, where you eventually pull in all three family members.
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                     <br/>
                     I want to be clear, that with the little sister and the big sister, aside from creating romantic/corrupt and vanilla/depraved routes, I'd hit all the same beats the story does already. I'd retread the same ground. However, I'd give the characters a motivation, reason, to be interested in continuing their relations. I'd advance the plot following a process that makes sense narratively and still builds anticipation, using the same beats, but without the repetition to build points just to pad game time. I would chain events together to create meaning to them, and how they culminate in their respective advancements.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     The changes I make to the mother's plot are more about creating a valid character, and not a cartoon. There's nothing wrong with a character being undeniably attracted to the MC. But there is a problem of breaking suspension of disbelief when the source of that attraction is hypnocock syndrome, and stupid woman in her 40's-itus. Even though I said I'd do a page 1 rewrite I tried to salvage some beats that made sense, while still creating a more well rounded and self motivated character. I didn't mention the yoga activities, but I'd probably keep them, throw them in just before or after the phone call with the sister, as a sort of beginning to the hard corruption of her morality.
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                     , looks like you're going to make one of the best games to be posted here! Unless you get side tracked by Patreon and your patrons' demands that you have to choose between your own developer integrity and the financial requirements of your life. Not an easy task. Good luck!
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                  <div class="message-userContent lbContainer js-lbContainer" data-lb-caption-desc="anne O'nymous · May 5, 2018 at 11:34 PM" data-lb-id="post-719567">
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                        For the sake of brevity I'll just quote this one piece, but to your example, because it's so similar to Man of the House, I'll be relating it to that in how I, still keeping the life sim format, and following the game, would have managed this type of interaction.
                        <br/>
                        [...]
                        <br/>
                        Things progress from here though almost entirely on an accumulation of points through repetition. You will also get her to sleep in the same bed as you only if you watched a horror movie, which on top of being repetitive, seems a bit silly, because there should come a point where you can simply invite her to sleep with you.
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                     Apparently I messed my post, too bad for my hopes
                     <img alt=";)" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite668" data-shortname=";)" src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" title="Wink    ;)"/>
                     Because the example I gave is (well, seemed in my mind) not Man of the House, but what Man of the House should have been.
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                        First off, there'd be no dialogue with a character that didn't serve a purpose. If you see your sister in the morning at breakfast, I am going to write a dialogue scene that is relevant to where you are in her progression, maybe more than one, to space things out for the sake of some anticipation, but each will be unique.
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                     That's part of where we differ. I don't talk about making it a big part of the content, but small talk is part of the life and, in its own way, have both a purpose and a meaning. Perhaps is it because it's something I hate to do, but with the years I came to understand its importance in human social relations. And it don't need to be a full scene, a single dialog line can be enough.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     I'll say it again, I do not talk about it as a big part of the content, like it is in Man of the House where almost every single dialog is just small talk. But making the girl disappear/not appear because there's nothing more to do is for me a lame and lazy solution. The author don't know how to handle the fact that nothing will happen, having no idea for realistic and still relevant (in its own way) small talk, while perhaps not knowing how to correctly use randomization here, so he simply remove all content.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     Take a book by example. A simple, "she was here, in the distance, and while Marc was talking to her, she discretely blinked at me", (when wrote better) say the same than a, "She made me sign to wait for her, and when her discussion with Marc was finished, she came to me and we started talking [blablabla she really liked it, she want to do it again some times]". Being a good book writer is being able to summarize this kind of scene in a single fully relevant line.
                     <br/>
                     This also apply to games. I forgot the name of this game, but you're facing the dean, trying to convince him that no, you didn't past the night in your teacher's bed. And there's this girl, standing beside him. She say nothing, it's just her facial expression which change. But this small changes say the same than a full scene where she would have explained that she's pleased by the way you answered, shutting up dean's mouth, defending your sex buddy teacher, because she like your teacher, she's a friend of her, and anyway you're really a reliable friend, the teacher can be glad to have you, oh by the way, if you were free, she would have banged you right now. And because of these small change, the scene with her which happen later is fast and small. All is already said, she just say a "you did well, tell her she know where to find me if needed".
                     <br/>
                     All isn't just in the scene. If you go full scene every time, even to express small things, you risk to end being boring. At the opposite, if you use everything at your disposition to express the narrative, including sometimes small talk, you'll dynamize the game. Varying the pace of the dialogs isn't enough, you should also vary the pace of the game itself. Exactly like when you write a book or a movie. In fact it's perhaps even more important for a game, because of the full interactivity. And when they are well handled, small talk are one of the way to do it, especially if you don't have full control of the game because you chose to not stick to a linear VN approach.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     But obviously, it should not be stupid fixed small talk like it's in Man of the House and, alas, most of the games. Small talk are relevant only if they are made relevant. To keep the example of the little sister, the small talk at first can be something like, "what will you do today". Then it can become something like, "thanks for your help with my lessons, I have better results now". After this it become something like, "I hope that you'll have time to help me again today", then finally it start to be something like, "I really loved our kiss yesterday, can you do it again today".
                     <br/>
                     Obviously, the dialog must be wrote better, but it's part of the narrative and, at least for me, it can say more about a relation than a full scene. At first it's impersonal, the MC's her brother, but that's all. Then it become personal, before becoming more passionate. She don't just need his help, she want his presence. And finally it start to become intimate. What do you need more ?
                     <br/>
                     Put these lines in the game, and with the morning small talk you know exactly where the MC is in his relation with his little sister. So, when it's well handled, it's not a time wasting thing, it's the opposite. Pass 10 seconds talking to her in the morning, and you'll know if there's change in your relation or not. For a game like Man of the House, which is pure grinding, these 10 seconds will tell you if you need to continue your actual grinding, or if you should start to play again the sex scenes, because the relation have evolved and the scene should have done the same. All this with a single line. So it's time saving, you don't have to guess, you don't have to try, you explicitly know.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     All this works simply because small talk are out of context. It's easy to say, "I love you", when he's ball deep in you and already made you climax three times in a row. Saying the same out of context, when you cross him in the elevator by example, is a totally different thing which mean way more.
                     <br/>
                     After, when it replace the disappearing/not appearing character, it's also the responsibility of the player to deal with it. Not in a way where he'll have to endure it, but in a way where he understand that, "ok, there's nothing more here for now, I'll come back later, when I'll see a progress somewhere else, to see if it unlocked something new". And, obviously, once you fall to small talk instead of fully relevant narrative, there's no points to gain.
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                        I want to be clear, that with the little sister and the big sister, aside from creating romantic/corrupt and vanilla/depraved routes, I'd hit all the same beats the story does already.
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                     Honestly, this annoy me way more than stupid mini-games and full emptiness grinding scenes.
                     <br/>
                     Why (and it's not directed against you) romantic/corrupt ? There's so much more to do, while in the same times both path aren't necessarily different. You can romantically fuck her deep in the ass, like you can corruptly cuddle her. Offering a comfort session after a strong BDSM session is more than common, and it's not because you're truly and deeply in love that she don't want to be fucked like a whore. The same apply for vanilla/depraved. Having sex with your mother doesn't mean that she's depraved ; it's not a taboo in all civilizations/religions and legal in half of the world. And you can have vanilla sex with your depraved married boss who sleep with every dick she can found.
                     <br/>
                     And once again, here come the power of small talk. You where banging her deep all night long, calling her whore, making her ass sore as fuck while she was begging for more. And in the morning she'll greet you with a, "good morning sweet heart", showing that despite the (relative) roughness of your sex sessions, you're in a romantic relationship. No need of a full scene for this, no need to even write it better. These four words are enough here and say everything which need to be said.
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                     <a class="username" data-user-id="589240" data-username="@GuyFreely" data-xf-init="member-tooltip" href="https://f95zone.to/members/589240/">
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                     don't really have time to answer you, but I read what you said, in particular regarding my words about the barrier language. I don't disagree, but I'm not sure that I agree. Not specifically because of what you said, it can be more because of what I read (or how I read it) and the psychological influence that the past discussions have. So, don't think that I ignore you.
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                     So we can boil several paragraphs down to "different people may like different things but what I like is more important so fuck them"....
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                  <div class="message-userContent lbContainer js-lbContainer" data-lb-caption-desc="DarthSeduction · May 6, 2018 at 2:44 AM" data-lb-id="post-720203">
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                        anne O'nymous said:
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                        That's part of where we differ. I don't talk about making it a big part of the content, but small talk is part of the life and, in its own way, have both a purpose and a meaning. Perhaps is it because it's something I hate to do, but with the years I came to understand its importance in human social relations. And it don't need to be a full scene, a single dialog line can be enough.
                        <br/>
                        <br/>
                        I'll say it again, I do not talk about it as a big part of the content, like it is in Man of the House where almost every single dialog is just small talk. But making the girl disappear/not appear because there's nothing more to do is for me a lame and lazy solution. The author don't know how to handle the fact that nothing will happen, having no idea for realistic and still relevant (in its own way) small talk, while perhaps not knowing how to correctly use randomization here, so he simply remove all content.
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                     I agree with making her disappear is lame/lazy, hence why I said I could also just give her a basic greeting line to be had there, and also, that the sex would be repeatable at least, that way you could go back to it if you wanted.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     <blockquote class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeBlock--expandable bbCodeBlock--quote">
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                       <a class="bbCodeBlock-sourceJump" data-content-selector="#post-719567" data-xf-click="attribution" href="/goto/post?id=719567">
                        anne O'nymous said:
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                      <div class="bbCodeBlock-content">
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                        Take a book by example. A simple, "she was here, in the distance, and while Marc was talking to her, she discretely blinked at me", (when wrote better) say the same than a, "She made me sign to wait for her, and when her discussion with Marc was finished, she came to me and we started talking [blablabla she really liked it, she want to do it again some times]". Being a good book writer is being able to summarize this kind of scene in a single fully relevant line.
                        <br/>
                        This also apply to games. I forgot the name of this game, but you're facing the dean, trying to convince him that no, you didn't past the night in your teacher's bed. And there's this girl, standing beside him. She say nothing, it's just her facial expression which change. But this small changes say the same than a full scene where she would have explained that she's pleased by the way you answered, shutting up dean's mouth, defending your sex buddy teacher, because she like your teacher, she's a friend of her, and anyway you're really a reliable friend, the teacher can be glad to have you, oh by the way, if you were free, she would have banged you right now. And because of these small change, the scene with her which happen later is fast and small. All is already said, she just say a "you did well, tell her she know where to find me if needed".
                        <br/>
                        All isn't just in the scene. If you go full scene every time, even to express small things, you risk to end being boring. At the opposite, if you use everything at your disposition to express the narrative, including sometimes small talk, you'll dynamize the game. Varying the pace of the dialogs isn't enough, you should also vary the pace of the game itself. Exactly like when you write a book or a movie. In fact it's perhaps even more important for a game, because of the full interactivity. And when they are well handled, small talk are one of the way to do it, especially if you don't have full control of the game because you chose to not stick to a linear VN approach.
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                     Maybe it would be better to show you how I write a story, because you seem to have read my mind with this comment. This scene already has it's art, so you'll see that some of the dialogues are numbered for art to be inserted, but don't have direction, that's because they've already been completed and I was placing the image numbers alongside the script lines they appear with to make things easier for our coder when he comes trough.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     <div class="bbCodeSpoiler">
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                          Literally the current opening to the game I'm writing.
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                      </button>
                      <div class="bbCodeSpoiler-content">
                       <div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeBlock--spoiler">
                        <div class="bbCodeBlock-content">
                         <span style="color: #00b3b3">
                          art direction
                         </span>
                         <br/>
                         <span style="color: #ff8000">
                          dialogue
                         </span>
                         <br/>
                         <br/>
                         <span style="color: #00b3b3">
                          001   *open on Eve in her bedroom at home. She has a suitcase and a trunk sitting on the floor and she's pacing.
                         </span>
                         <br/>
                         <br/>
                         *Knocking at the door*
                         <br/>
                         <br/>
                         <span style="color: #00b3b3">
                          002 - 003    *Eve rushes to the door of her room and opens it to reveal her best friend
                         </span>
                         <br/>
                         <br/>
                         <span style="color: #00b3b3">
                          004
                         </span>
                         <span style="color: #ff8000">
                          Eve: Luke! You came!
                         </span>
                         <span style="color: #00b3b3">
                          (She throws her arms around him)
                         </span>
                         <br/>
                         <br/>
                         <span style="color: #00b3b3">
                          005   *Luke reluctantly returns the hug, a pained expression on his face.
                         </span>
                         <br/>
                         <br/>
                         <span style="color: #00b3b3">
                          006   *She releases the hug, grabs his hand and guides him over to her bed, where they sit
                         </span>
                         <br/>
                         <br/>
                         <span style="color: #00b3b3">
                          007
                         </span>
                         <span style="color: #ff8000">
                          Eve: I figured you'd be too mad at me.
                         </span>
                         <br/>
                         <br/>
                         <span style="color: #00b3b3">
                          008
                         </span>
                         <span style="color: #ff8000">
                          Luke: Well, I'm trying not to be. I mean, we've been attached at the hip since grade school... I just wish you didn't have to go.
                         </span>
                         <br/>
                         <br/>
                         <span style="color: #ff8000">
                          Eve: I would be lying if I said I wish I didn't have to. The chance to study film under Imogen Frye, though, you know I can't pass this up.
                          <br/>
                          <br/>
                          Luke: I know, I'm being selfish. I just wish...
                         </span>
                         <br/>
                         <br/>
                         <span style="color: #00b3b3">
                          009  - 010   *as Luke trails off the camera should zoom in Evelyn's face, pan down to her hips, then pan back up to her face.
                          <br/>
                          <br/>
                          <br/>
                          011   *Evelyn, a bit uncomfortable under his gaze, tucks her hair behind her ear, nervously.
                         </span>
                         <br/>
                         <span style="color: #ff8000">
                          <br/>
                          Luke: I'm such a coward... You know?
                         </span>
                         <br/>
                         <br/>
                         <span style="color: #ff8000">
                          Eve: What?
                         </span>
                         <br/>
                         <br/>
                         <span style="color: #00b3b3">
                          008
                         </span>
                         <span style="color: #ff8000">
                          Luke: For years now I've been your best friend. But I've...
                         </span>
                         <br/>
                         <br/>
                         *Either an empty text box, an ellipsis, or something. I want the viewer to have to pause a second with the conversation, feel the hesitation.*
                         <br/>
                         <br/>
                         <span style="color: #ff8000">
                          Eve: Maybe you have been a coward...
                         </span>
                         <br/>
                         <br/>
                         <span style="color: #00b3b3">
                          012   *Luke flinches as though hearing it from her stings
                         </span>
                         <br/>
                         <br/>
                         <span style="color: #ff8000">
                          Eve: But I've been a shit friend too...
                         </span>
                         <br/>
                         <br/>
                         <span style="color: #ff8000">
                          Luke: Wait, what? No you've be-
                         </span>
                         <br/>
                         <br/>
                         <span style="color: #00b3b3">
                          013   *Eve places a finger against Luke’s lips, shushing him.
                         </span>
                         <br/>
                         <br/>
                         <span style="color: #ff8000">
                          Eve: I've known. I see the way you look at me. The way you blush when I compliment you, or laugh at your jokes.
                         </span>
                         <br/>
                         <br/>
                         <span style="color: #00b3b3">
                          014   *Eve leans into Luke, forcing him to lie back on the bed.
                         </span>
                         <br/>
                         <br/>
                         <span style="color: #ff8000">
                          Eve: I've led you on. Let you continue with your crush, knowing that I’d only ever hurt you if you finally voiced it.
                         </span>
                         <br/>
                         <br/>
                         <span style="color: #ff8000">
                          Luke: Evelyn what are you-...
                         </span>
                         <br/>
                         <br/>
                         <span style="color: #00b3b3">
                          015  *Eve is now straddling Luke, looking down at him. Her expression is caring, but her posture is feral.
                         </span>
                         <br/>
                         <br/>
                         <span style="color: #ff8000">
                          Eve: Shh... You deserve better than me, you know?
                         </span>
                         <br/>
                         <br/>
                         <span style="color: #00b3b3">
                          016   *with that Eve bends forward and kisses him.
                         </span>
                        </div>
                       </div>
                      </div>
                     </div>
                     <br/>
                     As this scene continues it actually has something like 70 renders. Suffice it to say, Funfiction is a bit surprised at how visually I want to tell the story, getting down to details like facial expressions to convey feelings and thoughts rather than internal monologues and wordy disjointed unnatural dialogue.
                     <br/>
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                        anne O'nymous said:
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                        Why (and it's not directed against you) romantic/corrupt ? There's so much more to do, while in the same times both path aren't necessarily different. You can romantically fuck her deep in the ass, like you can corruptly cuddle her. Offering a comfort session after a strong BDSM session is more than common, and it's not because you're truly and deeply in love that she don't want to be fucked like a whore. The same apply for vanilla/depraved.
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                     You're not wrong, but there are those who don't find the types of scenes I'd throw into the more depraved or corruptive routes. Yes, I could have a hard anal fuck session in either line. The difference would be not in what types of sex they would have, but in how they spoke to one another. For instance, the fact that he's making the older sister use her mouth to clean up her mess in the bathroom will turn a lot of people off, while also turning other people on. A hard anal fuck session in a romantic route will be all about how they love one another and how she wants to do this for him. In a corruption route the session is about how she's his to use as he wishes, and how she, through step by step conditioning has chosen to be this. Essentially it opens the door, in my mind, to a relationship based not on love but lust. And that's the major distinction I make between a corruption and romantic route.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     I also tend to be of the opinion that, as corruption requires you to make someone choose to change their moral outlook on something and doesn't include as much romantic subtext, it should, in many cases, take more to get certain things to happen. See, morality is a core belief, the simplest way to change a core belief is with an empathetic response. In a romantic line, empathy is everything and everywhere. It's a simple request and a desire to see your partner pleased that gets you to do something you wouldn't normally do. With corruption however, you have to appeal to their desire to see themselves pleased. It's a lot harder to convince someone who is opposed to anal that they're gonna like it if they have no reason to want to believe you. So the point with a corruption route would be more about slowly teasing the dirty side out of you, and less about pleasing one another. The corruption route would contain the exhibitionism, things like remote controlled vibes, essentially the MC getting off, not by romantic sex, but by putting the girls through their paces and watching them become depraved for the sake of depravity.
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                        So we can boil several paragraphs down to "different people may like different things but what I like is more important so fuck them"....
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                     Fundamentally, no.  I still think there are objectively good and bad design choices.  It's not black and white, as with most things.  That's where you start to get into personal preference.  I can't say "all mini-games are bad" because there are ways to make them more relevant (see examples in this thread).  I can say that most existing mini-games are bad because they don't serve a purpose other than slowing the player down artificially.
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                     Every element of a game or VN should have a purpose.  I think there are three main categories:
                     <br/>
                     Story - Whether it's world building, character development, or just moving the plot forward.  The player should learn something they didn't know before.  Things like oh, my main love interest likes exhibitionism or the magic of this world is powered by sexual energy.  Alternatively, a new development that moves the plot along.  Things like, I lost my job and need a new way to earn money.
                     <br/>
                     Erotic Content - While this can serve the story at the same time, this is what makes these game different than other games.  Some games might always have story-relevant erotic content, while others just have titties for titties sake.  I think either is fine, depending on what you want your game to be.
                     <br/>
                     Player Engagement - Basically, fun.  Making a game more of a game.  This is the most subjective of the categories because it depends on what people find fun.  However, I think most people can agree that repetitive, mindless tasks aren't fun.
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                     If a player interaction doesn't fall into one of these categories, it doesn't need to exist.
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                     grind is fine in these adult games. But have the grind have random events/encounters to them. Or something like that. In GirlLife for example, it's a QSP game though but I'm sure it's possible even in Renpy or RPGM to code it in, Having random encounters in the jobs that make you money makes the grind so much easier cause it affects your character in some way including that you earn money. Which helps balance it out, atleast in my opinion. If it's just click and make money, rince and repeat, then it gets stale and boring fast.  However, what sort of adult game i like to play really depends on mood and what i want that day, i can play games like Chubby Holidays and have fun with it, despite it being a click and fap game basically. I can play DoD or DMD and enjoy the lenghty tease and go around before getting laid or anything. And i can enjoy money/stat grind if there is content to the grind.
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                     Seems like this thread is mostly about author not understanding adult market. Adult games aren't necesarily porn. Vast majority of most succesful adult games in Japan has like 60h of text before anything sexual happens. Not to say about games like Rance with Steam-worthy gameplay value. There are games that can be considered as a porn and games which are clearly not. A Wife &amp; Mother is a fine example. Our Patreon market is much more porn-focused than Japanese so it might be a reason why some people can't understand that really slow burn and some decent gameplay value is what makes some games interesting. I'm pretty confident that majority of players prefer such style as we can see looking at bestsellers in Japan. Personally I find it a bit silly to play such games for only porn value.
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                        Seems like this thread is mostly about author not understanding adult market. Adult games aren't necesarily porn. Vast majority of most succesful adult games in Japan has like 60h of text before anything sexual happens. Not to say about games like Rance with Steam-worthy gameplay value. There are games that can be considered as a porn and games which are clearly not. A Wife &amp; Mother is a fine example. Our Patreon market is much more porn-focused than Japanese so it might be a reason why some people can't understand that really slow burn and some decent gameplay value is what makes some games interesting. I'm pretty confident that majority of players prefer such style as we can see looking at bestsellers in Japan. Personally I find it a bit silly to play such games for only porn value.
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                     I agree with you and for me personally, I dont mind the "blue ball" stages of these games with a story that takes a few updates before  you shove your dick into someone. I do actually enjoy the teasing and sexual innuendos in renders without it having to be straight up intercourse or porn. A handjob here, a peek there and so on is just fine with me. But that also comes down to personal preference and what gets you off i guess. And some people dont got the patience to read through all that story cause they come on here looking for a quick fap game and go into these games expecting something else than what the game actually is.
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                     But i do think Patreon polls have ruined a lot of adult games too. Devs who rely way too much on patreon polls tend to imo. drag the games in the wrong direction or focus on wrong characters. And deviate a lot from their original concept.
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                        I agree with you and for me personally, I dont mind the "blue ball" stages of these games with a story that takes a few updates before  you shove your dick into someone. I do actually enjoy the teasing and sexual innuendos in renders without it having to be straight up intercourse or porn. A handjob here, a peek there and so on is just fine with me. But that also comes down to personal preference and what gets you off i guess. And some people dont got the patience to read through all that story cause they come on here looking for a quick fap game and go into these games expecting something else than what the game actually is.
                        <br/>
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                        But i do think Patreon polls have ruined a lot of adult games too. Devs who rely way too much on patreon polls tend to imo. drag the games in the wrong direction or focus on wrong characters. And deviate a lot from their original concept.
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                     Agree with everything except for the polls. In my opinion polls didn't ruin our market but Patreon and its monthly model of development. Such model is hilarious and can't be considered serious in any development. You can't really build a market on a bunch of unfinished games which are meant to be developed forever. It's also cancerous for all games with slower aproach like A Wife &amp; Mother which are not meant for monthly updates. It has shittons of issues and only a few real pros in my opinion.
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                        Seems like this thread is mostly about author not understanding adult market. Adult games aren't necesarily porn. Vast majority of most succesful adult games in Japan has like 60h of text before anything sexual happens. Not to say about games like Rance with Steam-worthy gameplay value. There are games that can be considered as a porn and games which are clearly not. A Wife &amp; Mother is a fine example. Our Patreon market is much more porn-focused than Japanese so it might be a reason why some people can't understand that really slow burn and some decent gameplay value is what makes some games interesting. I'm pretty confident that majority of players prefer such style as we can see looking at bestsellers in Japan. Personally I find it a bit silly to play such games for only porn value.
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                     Talk about not understanding the adult market. You are clearly conflating all Japanese VNs into one lump group, while ignoring the existence of nukige among their ranks. There are thousands of VNs from Japan that jump straight into the action and exist purely as fap material with the story just there to get you from one sex scene to the next. Not to mention their wide assortment of non-VN adult games that are straight up sex sims like the 3D games from Illusion, Teatime and many others.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     This isn't to say that I don't enjoy a good eroge that is mostly just story with only a few intimate scenes, I read those all the time too. But trying to pretend like Japan only has light hentai VNs comes across as either ignorant or disingenuous. There's a place for both story heavy games and unabashed raunch and everything in between if there is someone who gets enjoyment out of making or consuming it.
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                        Thialf said:
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                        My opinion:
                        <br/>
                        I like:
                        <br/>
                        - A good story, never mind if it's long (as DmD) to reach a conclusion.
                        <br/>
                        - Meaningful action, like Coceter Chronicles or Last Sovereign
                        <br/>
                        <br/>
                        I don't like:
                        <br/>
                        - Grinding for money, stats or waiting for specific events to happen without a way to skip time (BB)
                        <br/>
                        - Irrelevant minigames (Milfy City)
                        <br/>
                        <br/>
                        Non-erotic content (such as fighting) should fit the game / storyline and be properly done.
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                     Maybe I'm mistaken, but did DMD ever make a conclusion? I haven't played since the Patreon change and I thought it was abandoned for Melody.
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                        Maybe I'm mistaken, but did DMD ever make a conclusion? I haven't played since the Patreon change and I thought it was abandoned for Melody.
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                     It's not abandoned, an update came out yesterday. But since it's no longer on Patreon, updates are slower and most likely the story won't be fully developed in the end.
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                        Talk about not understanding the adult market. You are clearly conflating all Japanese VNs into one lump group, while ignoring the existence of nukige among their ranks. There are thousands of VNs from Japan that jump straight into the action and exist purely as fap material with the story just there to get you from one sex scene to the next. Not to mention their wide assortment of non-VN adult games that are straight up sex sims like the 3D games from Illusion, Teatime and many others.
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                        This isn't to say that I don't enjoy a good eroge that is mostly just story with only a few intimate scenes, I read those all the time too. But trying to pretend like Japan only has light hentai VNs comes across as either ignorant or disingenuous. There's a place for both story heavy games and unabashed raunch and everything in between if there is someone who gets enjoyment out of making or consuming it.
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                     I didn't say nothing about nukiges. There are more openly porn games in Japan than all games on Patreon in 10 years. I will quote myself: "There are games that can be considered as a porn and games which are clearly not." And author seems to consider all adult games as a porn with sex in its focus when it's clearly not the truth. I don't judge other tastes - it's fine to like one type over another - but bashing all games in general just for a lack of porn doesn't feel right.
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                        I didn't say nothing about nukiges. There are more openly porn games in Japan than all games on Patreon in 10 years. I will quote myself: "There are games that can be considered as a porn and games which are clearly not." And author seems to consider all adult games as a porn with sex in its focus when it's clearly not the truth. I don't judge other tastes - it's fine to like one type over another - but bashing all games in general just for a lack of porn doesn't feel right.
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                     Yes, I know you didn't say anything about nukige, that was my point since you also said "Vast majority of most succesful adult games in Japan has like 60h of text before anything sexual happens." Which is definitely false on several levels. Only a small portion of VNs, mainly from top studios, even reach those lengths in the first place.
                     <br/>
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                     VNs in Japan, despite making up about 70% of released games, are actually rather niche. It's really hard to get a foothold in that market. Not many people buy the games so the prices tend to be on the high side making it harder for those in that already limited market to buy more than a game or two a month most of the time. Yet with the ease of making VNs with a small budget and tiny teams the market is way over-saturated. Put all this together and most have to rely on high sexual content to give more bang for the buck in hopes of winning enough attention to stay afloat.
                     <br/>
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                     Because of this the market is actually flooded with Nukige, they are far more common than your thought provoking 60+ hour epics with tons of endings and minimal sex scenes. It's usually only the biggest, most established companies that can reliably make back their money off those. Many of the smaller studios that tried their hand at big games have gone down hard. This led to the relatively short (10-30 hour) sex heavy games becoming the mainstay for most small studios who want to stay in the business. And since surviving through a release and making enough off it to fund the next project is the definition of success in this industry, it's safe to say the majority of successful adult games in Japan are actually from the nukige end of the spectrum.
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                       I think that some Gamers are missing the point of Playing a Erotic Game....
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                     IT IS A GAME.... not a pornhub movie, not a Adult comic.... IT IS A GAME.
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                     And as with many, many other games in the world.... It takes times and effort to play it.....
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                     And i know...Patience and putting effort in to something is real scary for a lot of people these days....
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                     But if you are only interested in "pixels doing naughty things".... Then go look at some Hentai movies or something.
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                     And leave games for the people who actually like putting some effort into something.
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                        Yes, I know you didn't say anything about nukige, that was my point since you also said "Vast majority of most succesful adult games in Japan has like 60h of text before anything sexual happens." Which is definitely false on several levels. Only a small portion of VNs, mainly from top studios, even reach those lengths in the first place.
                        <br/>
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                        VNs in Japan, despite making up about 70% of released games, are actually rather niche. It's really hard to get a foothold in that market. Not many people buy the games so the prices tend to be on the high side making it harder for those in that already limited market to buy more than a game or two a month most of the time. Yet with the ease of making VNs with a small budget and tiny teams the market is way over-saturated. Put all this together and most have to rely on high sexual content to give more bang for the buck in hopes of winning enough attention to stay afloat.
                        <br/>
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                        Because of this the market is actually flooded with Nukige, they are far more common than your thought provoking 60+ hour epics with tons of endings and minimal sex scenes. It's usually only the biggest, most established companies that can reliably make back their money off those. Many of the smaller studios that tried their hand at big games have gone down hard. This led to the relatively short (10-30 hour) sex heavy games becoming the mainstay for most small studios who want to stay in the business. And since surviving through a release and making enough off it to fund the next project is the definition of success in this industry, it's safe to say the majority of successful adult games in Japan are actually from the nukige end of the spectrum.
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                     True. But success depends on your definition as the most famous, biggest and bestselling games ain't nukiges. My argument is clearly not fair as pure porn can't enter mainstream even in Japan but it's still a thing. Ofc you're right that nukiges are also selling well but I'm not arguing about it. I'm just saying that there is a huge market for adult games which are not porn and such games shouldn't be underestimated. That's all. To be honest even sex focused games can reach much more people with non-erotic complex gameplay (Rance, Kamidori etc.). I'm not trying to pick a fight with you (I agree with most what you said), but I just can't agree with OP as it's clear that porn is not always a thing in adult games and sometimes it's delivered in a much slower or complex way. In my personal opinion simplifying adult games like that is just as harmful for our market as it is untrue.
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                     The problem with porn games is partly the same as with porn movies, but fortunately to a lesser extent.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     That's about the conflict between story and pay-off (sex).
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     If you look at porn movies, in the 1970's and '80's, there were a lot of soft porn movies with "great" (well, for porn) stories, but the sex was pretty limited, both in time and in quality (no dicks, let alone penetration). For some reasons, over time, the story became less and less important in porn movies. Since the '90's - 2000's, most porn movies are reduced to seeing people fucking. In more recent years, there are again some movies with some form of story, but they are usually still low budget, shot indoors etc., and still focussing more on the sex than those '70's -'80's movies.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     With CG computer games there are obviously less constraints. If you want to set a game in the middle ages, you don't need to rent a castle and some decent props, like you would need to for a movie.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     But the commonality between old school porn and most games here is the delayed pay-off.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     For some reason, porn movies have gotten / are getting away with the lack of story, or having a very poor story. Probably because for most people, the pay-off is good enough.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     Personally, I much prefer good stories.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     Like Darth Seduction usually says, most stories could be much, much better. Still even the worst game here has a better story than main stream porn.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     But by having any kind of story or build up, you are inevitably delaying the pay-off, in some form. DmD, which possibly has the longest build-up of all these games, tries to deal with this by having mini-pay-offs in the form of sex with side characters. This is obviously not perfect, but apparently still working from a commercial view point. I guess it depends a lot on personal preference.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     **********************
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     Another conflict is the one between story and gameplay.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     Some forms of gameplay (e.g. puzzle minigames) do nothing for the story.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     The problem here is to find a way to have an interesting game mechanic without distracting too much from the story.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     One great example where this works is General Practitioner. The game play (medical examinations) is very natural and integrated in the story. But it's very complicated.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     For instance, Fallout 4 is a great game. It has good combat, an excellent story with meaningful and deep choices. But adding a nude patch doesn't help in any way. It doesn't make the game erotic, only awkward. Adding sex scenes, regardless of the quality of them, would most likely not help either.
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                        Thialf said:
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                        For instance, Fallout
                        <span style="font-family: 'Trebuchet MS'">
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                          3/New Vegas
                         </span>
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                        are great games.
                        <b>
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                          <span style="font-family: 'Trebuchet MS'">
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                            They have good combat, excellent stories with meaningful and deep choices
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                        .
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                     Fixed it for you
                     <img alt=";)" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite668" data-shortname=";)" src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" title="Wink    ;)"/>
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     I think, although they are games, it comes down to do you want a more realistic approach or a more fantasy approach. If it's realism you want, you need a story, and because it's realistic, not everything ends up with sex, and not everything is totally driven by sex, for example a Wife and Mother does a good job of this. Another game, already mentioned, has been going for years, is totally and completely based on sex and yet you haven't managed to get it yet, that's how not to do it.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     I'm basing my game more along the James Bond type movies, might not be for everybody but that's what I want to make, a story with sex in it along the way, but first and foremost it will be a story. If it's too slow for anybody, come back in five/six updates and just tab til the porn. Yes there is sex in it, the sex is like Porn Movies, you can see everything and with the next update there will be 4 scenes in total (this will be my fourth update). However I'm also putting a story in it which is why you are encountering these sex scenes, and some updates will have little to no sex in them at all whereas others might have a lot.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     I think some games just have different goals &amp; objectives. I just played Perverted Hotel and it's a great game in my view, and I enjoyed it, but the story isn't really existent and that's fine because the porn side is good and I wasn't really playing it for the story. Whereas I've also played Depraved Awakenings and I want to know what's coming next in the story waaaay more than the next sex scene (although it also has amazing sex scenes).
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     So yeah, that's just my thoughts
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                  <div class="message-userContent lbContainer js-lbContainer" data-lb-caption-desc="gunderson · May 30, 2018 at 12:23 AM" data-lb-id="post-784625">
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                     A bit late to the party.  Ah well.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     Why shouldn't Opala (or Roundscape for that matter) count as a porn game?  It's got porn for daaaaays once you actually unlock it.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     My suspicion as to why people want to make this distinction is because Ren'Py is such a powerful force in the Patreon market right now, and because it's such a pain in the ass to develop remotely interesting gameplay mechanics in Ren'Py.  So the debate ends up being, rather than whether you should emphasize making your minigames more fun or more porny, whether they should exist at all.  And that kinda sucks.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     Sure, the occasional game with really strong graphics and an  engaging story can get away with having really barebones gameplay, but most of them need to be at least a little fun to actually play to keep a player's attention.  And that's not so surprising, given that these things are called 'games,' right?
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     And I hate to break it to you (that's a lie, this actually feels great to say), but 'good' porn game stories aren't that good.  Don't get me wrong, they can be REALLY bad.  Like, unreadable and incomprehensible even when perfectly translated to English levels of bad.  But at best?  Basically any of these Ren'Py games' stories only get to the level of mediocre bodice-ripper novels and no better.  Not by any means to say that it isn't worth the work of trying to improve them (though I think for example that DarthSeduction's rewrite of Man of the House just orients the fetishes more closely around dom-sub relationships rather than actually making the story 'better'), but rather that this is all no excuse to avoid trying to improve your coding skills and giving players a break from reading your not-very-good-even-at-its-best novel.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     <blockquote class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeBlock--expandable bbCodeBlock--quote">
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                        For instance, Fallout 4 is a great game. It has good combat, an excellent story with meaningful and deep choices. But adding a nude patch doesn't help in any way. It doesn't make the game erotic, only awkward. Adding sex scenes, regardless of the quality of them, would most likely not help either.
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                        For instance, Fallout 3/New Vegas are great games.
                        <b>
                         They have good combat, excellent stories with meaningful and deep choices
                        </b>
                        .
                        <br/>
                        Fixed it for you
                        <img alt=";)" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite668" data-shortname=";)" src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" title="Wink    ;)"/>
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                     Let me fix this one for both of you: the FPS Fallouts are all great fun to play.  Even at their best the stories are still worse than a reasonably well-written novel, but the overall integrated experience with gameplay, story, choices, RPG systems, and character investment is what makes it worth your time.  And ain't nothing wrong with giving the ladies in Fallout bigger tiddays.   Flat chested ladies are one of the many hazards of the Commonwealth/Capital Wasteland/Mojave.
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                    Trying to censor fiction means you are afraid of something that is by definition imaginary.
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                     I don't mind if a erotic game includes
                     <i>
                      fun
                     </i>
                     game elements.  As I mentioned before, this can be highly subjective.  Most minigames consist of things you'd find available at your favorite trashy flash game site.  As you say, putting in complex game mechanics can be a lot of work.  Even when the games are slightly more involved, they can become tedious.  I'm thinking of a game called Milf Control which had a card game as the basis.  Similar to real games I've seen whose names escape me.  While it's vaguely tactical, it quickly becomes a chore (imo).
                     <br/>
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                     I would agree that the writing in many erotic games is fairly bad, unfortunately. However, I think there is no limitation to how good a story can be in an erotic game.  Now I doubt we have any Pulitzer prize winning authors writing for erotic games, but there's nothing to say they can't be really good.  Part of this might come down to commercial viability.  A professional author needs to get paid and erotic games are still fairly niche and have a stigma to them.  It makes more sense for them to write for non erotic games or write small novels to make a living.  So you are left with mostly fan projects by people who have various levels of writing ability.
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                     I think most Devs just cobble together Porn Scenes with non Porn Gameplay, like Big Brother, Summertime Saga or Queen Opala.
                     <br/>
                     What most of them missing to some extent or the other is Gameplay that is directly tied to the Sex.
                     <br/>
                     On the Asian side you have game like Shuusakuor or its follow up Kisaku.
                     <br/>
                     You had to Balance your Dutys as a Caretaker with spying on Woman to gather enough Evidence to blackmail them.
                     <br/>
                     And while they werent realy deep, its an good Start.
                     <br/>
                     On the Western Side the closest you can come are Brother Sims, because well, the Gameplay _is_ directly tied to the Sex.
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                     And dont get me started on all the Ren´py VN "Games"
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                     But a lot of them are missing one or the other Element, be it to be more than just a Basic Sim with Hentai pics they dl from some booru, or in case like Porn Empire there is simply not enough "Meat" , the same Animations everytime and not enough "Potatoes" like meaningfull Upgrades later on that unlock more Content or Variations.
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                     I find the main problem to be that adult game devs tend to forget what kind of game they are making, they have a dream of making a game of a specific kind and they do that and then add the adult parts, when it should be the other way around instead. They put the focus on the wrong part of the game most of the time.
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                        I find the main problem to be that adult game devs tend to forget what kind of game they are making, they have a dream of making a game of a specific kind and they do that and then add the adult parts, when it should be the other way around instead. They put the focus on the wrong part of the game most of the time.
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                     I'm not entirely sure I agree on this point.  Maybe if you had an example of where you thought this happened.  I think adult game devs generally set out to make an adult game, but they fall into traps of bad design.  I think it would be perhaps be more correct to say they want to make their adult games have more traditional game elements, but lack the skill or effort to implement them.  They put in boring, repetitive mini games or grind with very little thought to the overall product.  They do this either because they think they should, or more dangerously, to pad out the run time of their game.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     The problem with padding out the run time of an adult game, is that it doesn't generally add value for the player.  In a more traditional game, let's say skyrim, where you've implemented various crafting and combat systems you can pad the gameplay with more "stuff."  You add extra enemies to fight, items to gather for crafting, little hidden places to explore.  These all cater to certain types of gamers and reinforce the core mechanics.
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                         Skyrim does have one obvious minigame in it, lockpicking.  The distinction here is that lockpicking is pretty much 100% optional.  You generally don't ever HAVE to pick a lock to make progress.  If you join the Theives' Guild, you might expect to pick a few locks, but joining them is entirely optional as well.  They don't lock any core content behind a minigame (pun intended).  Even then, if you are into picking locks, the perk system let's you make it easier.  Why? So you don't spend 15 minutes picking a master lock.  Also, it's a grind it til you find it, one and done system.  It doesn't use the multiple tumbler system you see in some games.  Because getting four tumblers in position then losing all progress on the fifth isn't super fun even if it's more in line with actual lockpicking.
                         <br/>
                         <br/>
                         The only things that sometimes get in your way are the combo locked doors.  These are in two forms, the claw doors and the rotating pillar doors.  The claw doors are simple, if you have the claw, you look at the palm and the combo is right on it.  For the pillars, the solution is almost always in the same room.  Most of the time, it's literally matching pictures on the wall or something.  Every now and then they spice it up by having a riddle as the clue.  Generally, they are laughably easy.  Why? Because gamers are stupid?  While they do have to think about the lowest common denominator sometimes, I think it's because they don't want to waste the player's time.
                         <br/>
                         <br/>
                         Look at the way most dungeons in Skyrim give you a shortcut back to the entrance when you are done.  They could make you walk all the way back through an empty dungeon.  It would add play time to the game, but it doesn't add value to the player.  Similarly, these RPGM games that make you traipse back and forth across the map don't add value.  A little walking around is fine, but if the player is spending almost as much time walking as they are interacting with the story, then it's a waste of time.
                         <br/>
                         <br/>
                         Let's take a tangent from our tangent and talk about something like the game "The Room."  The entire premise of this game is to figure out how to unlock extremely complicated mechanisms.  I actually quite enjoyed it, but I knew what I was signing up for when I played the game.  Bethesda could have put a The Room level difficulty puzzle in Skyrim and forced you to complete it to finish the story, but they didn't.  Because most people didn't boot up Skyrim to burn their brains on some puzzle.  Similarly, mostly people didn't load up an adult game for little minigames.
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                     Adding a minigame or a grind to most adult games doesn't reinforce core game mechanics.  Hell, most adult games don't have core game mechanics in the traditional sense.  Yes, adult games that are actual games exist, but I'm talking about the majority of games found on this site.  Generally these games most closely resemble choose your own adventure games.  So if you want to add to your game, add more choices, more paths, more characters, more story, or (obviously) more adult content.
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                     I think having good mechanics and a good base down for a game is the most important, even an "Erotic" game.  Having a good game is preferred by me than a shitty game mechanic wise with click and fap scenes.
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                     also, I like the different grind mechanics to an extent. Like working, working out, reading, jogging whatnot. Aslong as the dev can put in either random occurances in those grind moments or just have some sort of smaller event happen now and then. Not a huge fan of minigames to unlock content or to build stats/money though. But it seems like it's heavily used for some reason.
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                     Buut..I want a great game first and the art/story should be a second prio imo. Good mechanics and good game design will help a lot and also make your game much more fleshed out than having all your focus on the story/art imo.  Bad art and a wonky story can work if the game mechanics is great, but shitty game mechanics will most likely turn people away no matter the art direction/story you got.
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                        For instance, Fallout 4 is a great game. It has good combat, an excellent story with meaningful and deep choices. But adding a nude patch doesn't help in any way. It doesn't make the game erotic, only awkward. Adding sex scenes, regardless of the quality of them, would most likely not help either.
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                     Tend to disagree on F4 with you, on multiple accounts (long story short, I call it Fallout: Disappointment).
                     <br/>
                     You are correct about adding nude patch only because mod scene for it is still in early phase.
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                     Look at Skyrim (not SE), you can just add nude patch/ecchi armors, or you could mod game so hard it turns into another game, be careful on which mods you add, and you'll turn it into completely new game.
                     <br/>
                     It can even be better sex simulator than 99% of games featured here. (I'm not exaggerating, I'd post links, but can't find rule on sharing/advertising other pages/forums, so I play safe)
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                        Look at Skyrim (not SE), you can just add nude patch/ecchi armors, or you could mod game so hard it turns into another game, be careful on which mods you add, and you'll turn it into completely new game.
                        <br/>
                        It can even be better sex simulator than 99% of games featured here. (I'm not exaggerating, I'd post links, but can't find rule on sharing/advertising other pages/forums, so I play safe)
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                     Most definitely.  This is largely what I did before I started trying out the types of games on here.  Though a lot of the more involved mods are made with a female player character in mind.  Which I don't mind, but I've seen many people on here who refuse to play female protagonist games.
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                        also, I like the different grind mechanics to an extent. Like working, working out, reading, jogging whatnot. Aslong as the dev can put in either random occurances in those grind moments or just have some sort of smaller event happen now and then. Not a huge fan of minigames to unlock content or to build stats/money though. But it seems like it's heavily used for some reason.
                        <br/>
                        <br/>
                        Buut..I want a great game first and the art/story should be a second prio imo. Good mechanics and good game design will help a lot and also make your game much more fleshed out than having all your focus on the story/art imo.  Bad art and a wonky story can work if the game mechanics is great, but shitty game mechanics will most likely turn people away no matter the art direction/story you got.
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                     Right, there are ways to put a "grind" into a game that aren't a complete waste of time.  Like you say, varying up the situation.  If I am seeing the exact same generic scene every time, it's not adding anything.  I think part of the issue are the engines available to the devs.  I'm sure some clever people have jammed some cool gameplay into Ren'Py, but by default the mechanics are fairly limited.  RPGM obviously has the ability to make something along the lines of SNES era rpg games, but beyond that, I'm not sure what it has to offer.  I haven't looked at it myself.  To have more fleshed out gameplay, you'd probably want something like Unity and a lot of people aren't up to the challenge of doing that.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     More to the point, I think someone with serious game development skills would be inclined to make something more mass market (non-ero) to make more money.  You'd need that special combination of someone with strong game dev skills and a passion for ero-games.
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                        More to the point, I think someone with serious game development skills would be inclined to make something more mass market (non-ero) to make more money.  You'd need that special combination of someone with strong game dev skills and a passion for ero-games.
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                     Not to mention that unless they have initial funding or a team, most devs are the sole writers, coders, and artists.
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                        also, I like the different grind mechanics to an extent. Like working, working out, reading, jogging whatnot. Aslong as the dev can put in either random occurances in those grind moments or just have some sort of smaller event happen now and then.
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                     I haven't tried it yet, but trying to code random occurrences in Ren'py is probably really tedious and easy to mess up. The 'mini games' that some games have are really neat bits of coding, but I hate picking up trash or killing bugs to unlock erotic content.
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                        I haven't tried it yet, but trying to code random occurrences in Ren'py is probably really tedious and easy to mess up. The 'mini games' that some games have are really neat bits of coding, but I hate picking up trash or killing bugs to unlock erotic content.
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                     Actually not really that hard, it's pretty damn easy, I'm in the process of implementing random occurences/chances in my game right now, now that I have finished all the other important mechanics and menus. Also, in the process of making the waiting mechanic work as intended, I have discovered why many games have you do the waiting on the map, long story short, if the base of your game wasn't made to handle images updating dynamically, then for example let's say you're in room x, at morning there's nobody, at afternoon there's your sister, at night there's your mother, if in the morning you press the waiting button, time will advance but the image will stay the same, which would be the morning image in the afternoon. I assume many devs didn't know how to do it when first getting started and now that they have coders it would probably be too much hassle to rewrite the mechanics. That, or maybe they think it's ugly when the image updates in front of the player, but I really doubt it.
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                     There's some well thought out and reasoned debate here so.....on the subject of mini games, quick question?
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                     I'll be honest, I loathe mini games that you -have- to complete in order to progress, but what about optional ones? In the game I'm currently bashing into shape (and without wanting to spoil anything should I get off my arse and eventually release it!) there's an event where, depending on your choices etc, you can end up playing strip poker with one of the characters. Now it's a mini game for sure, but not a necessary one so does this fall into the loathsome grind category?
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                        There's some well thought out and reasoned debate here so.....on the subject of mini games, quick question?
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                        I'll be honest, I loathe mini games that you -have- to complete in order to progress, but what about optional ones? In the game I'm currently bashing into shape (and without wanting to spoil anything should I get off my arse and eventually release it!) there's an event where, depending on your choices etc, you can end up playing strip poker with one of the characters. Now it's a mini game for sure, but not a necessary one so does this fall into the loathsome grind category?
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                     I don't believe it falls into the loathsome grind category, but it might be annoying for the player, since most players will get any chance they can to see a character naked, and to see that character naked in that scene they HAVE to win the strip poker game, it won't be treated as optional by the players. Also, remember that as the dev you know that the player can progress even without winning the strip poker minigame, but a player that gets to that minigame will keep save scumming to win it thinking that they can't progress without winning it, they can't look at the code and most of them wouldn't understand it. Try to insert the MC's thoughts along the lines of "If I win this strip poker game, I'll get to see her naked, but even if I don't it won't delay my plans/our relationship/etc."
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                     A lot of them don't even finish their games
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                        Dan Hasshole said:
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                        A lot of them don't even finish their games
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                     <br/>
                     Many lost the game because of incest content... many more just seemed to be in it for the money and when they did not see great profit like MrDots or DarkSilver they balked.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     Some of the game makers have that are worthy of support are DarkHound  for Holiday Island, KsT for Twist
                     <br/>
                     Gaweb Studio For Glassix,  MrDots for DMD and Melody, Faerin for Man of the House. Dark Silver for Big Brother and Gloria, Asteros for My Cute Cousin
                     <i>
                      aka
                     </i>
                     roomate
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     Of these my favorite game for exceptional content and outstanding renderings is Dark Hound's Holiday Island.
                     <br/>
                     You up your stats mainly by working out and interacting with the girls.  You get game currency for Fapping
                     <img alt=":cool:" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite672" data-shortname=":cool:" src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" title="Cool    :cool:"/>
                     that you can spend on gifts and boosts.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     If more developers would follow the lead of the ones I stated, this board would not be so full of demos that have no or little content or games that have monthly updates of nothing but fixes and debugs.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     I am sure I am not alone when I say the game on this board have taken a serious nosedive in creativity, content, and workmanship.
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                        There's some well thought out and reasoned debate here so.....on the subject of mini games, quick question?
                        <br/>
                        <br/>
                        I'll be honest, I loathe mini games that you -have- to complete in order to progress, but what about optional ones? In the game I'm currently bashing into shape (and without wanting to spoil anything should I get off my arse and eventually release it!) there's an event where, depending on your choices etc, you can end up playing strip poker with one of the characters. Now it's a mini game for sure, but not a necessary one so does this fall into the loathsome grind category?
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                     So strip poker falls into the category of an acceptable mini-game in my opinion.  (I'm a little biased because I play poker anyway and I played strip poker games when I could find a good one.)  The main reason I think it's okay is that it immediately unlocks erotic content, in the form of the girl getting more naked as you win.  One point is that it has to be fair.  If the female opponent is cheating to win, you are just pissing off your player.  (This is the case in Holiday Island for the higher difficulty players.)
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     Now not everyone is going to want to play poker, but pretty much everyone will want to see the girls naked.  I would say if you want to cater to the people who want the content without the grind, let them cheat.  Literally give them free wins.  You can even do it inside your narrative.  You can say that the player knows how to stack the deck, so that if he is dealer, he will win most of the time.  So you set up this premise and when the game starts you can choose, [Let her deal] or [Be the dealer (stack the deck)].  From a coding standpoint, no idea how hard this is to do, but it would be a nice way to handle it.  You can even have the girl comment about how she thinks he might be cheating.
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                        Threetees said:
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                        Of these my favorite game for exceptional content and outstanding renderings is Dark Hound's Holiday Island.
                        <br/>
                        You up your stats mainly by working out and interacting with the girls.  You get game currency for Fapping
                        <img alt=":cool:" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite672" data-shortname=":cool:" src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" title="Cool    :cool:"/>
                        that you can spend on gifts and boosts.
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                     I know I talked about Holiday Island somewhere, maybe even this thread, but I'll recap here.  I wanted to like Holiday Island.  It has a paper thin plot and one dimensional characters.  The premise is pretty silly even with the conspiratorial undertones.  I don't know if this ever goes anywhere, I didn't find out the secrets of the island in my time with it.  As I've stated before, I don't mind these style of games. I think they are just as valid as something with a deep involved story.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     The Good:
                     <br/>
                     It has a bunch of different girls.  I would say he could have varied the body types a bit more, but whatever.  I really like the way you can choose a subset of the girls to be on the island.  This is kind of like the Illusion game Sexy Beach Premium Resort.  It also has decent renders.  A lot of assets are reused, but overall the quality is pretty good.  The way the grind is handled it pretty easy.  So you talk to a girl once, go through all the dialogue, and the next time you talk to her, the choices have pluses and minuses indicating her preferences.  Now, I still cheated, because I didn't feel like doing it, but it was nice that it was straightforward.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     The Bad:
                     <br/>
                     Grindy.  Yep, workout to get strength, read books to get charm, etc.  Thankfully, you can cheat (not built in though).
                     <br/>
                     Without a guide, this game is largely a sexy slot machine.  There are a number of factors: the girl, her outfit, location, time of day, presence of absence of other girls, your progress on love/lust tracks, maybe more?  So you are trying to find the perfect combination of these factors to get special scenes.  You might stumble into them with brute force, but it will be a lot of wasted time going down dead ends. For example, a certain location might offer activity X.  Most of the girls can do activity X, but only one girl will have a special scene attached to it.  You have no way of knowing which girl(s) have a special scene, so you are left trying all of them.  Even then, she might be wearing the wrong outfit.  So you'll have to try it multiple times per girl.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     I wouldn't mind this convoluted mess if the player was guided to the solutions a bit more. Maybe don't let me do activity X with girls that don't have a special scene.  I would still have to get lucky to find the right combination of factors, but at least then I won't follow dead end paths.  A little trial and error might be okay, but not to the degree Holiday Island presents.  I'm sure some of these scenes are supposed to be content on their own, like watching the girls stretch in the gym.  Then some girls have a "bonus" on this scene where they get their tits out, etc.  The problem is that even these scenes get boring quick where you are trying to find the extra content.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     This is kind of my larger point.  I think Holiday Island could be fixed.  I think it could be a much more enjoyable experience by
                     <i>
                      wasting less of the player's time
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                     .  Trying twenty combinations that don't work to find one that does, is not good gameplay imo.  As I said, there are enough pieces that have to line up here without all the dead ends.  Would it be a shorter game without all the guessing? Yes.  Is that a bad thing? No.  Longer play length does not always mean a better player experience.
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        Average
       </option>
       <option value="4">
        Good
       </option>
       <option value="5">
        Excellent
       </option>
      </select>
     </div>
    </div>
   </div>
  </div>
  <div class="u-bottomFixer js-bottomFixTarget">
  </div>
  <form hidden="hidden" style="display:none">
   <input id="_xfClientLoadTime" name="_xfClientLoadTime" tabindex="-1" title="_xfClientLoadTime" type="text" value=""/>
  </form>
 </body>
</html>
