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Ok this is really hard to explain so I will try and break it down once and for all. I will be explaining netorare, netori, and cuckoldry. But today I am going to finally set the precedent for everyone to follow. 

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                     This is a thread for people to link anytime someone asks what NTR is.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     Ok this is really hard to explain so I will try and break it down once and for all. I will be explaining netorare, netori, and cuckoldry. But today I am going to finally set the precedent for everyone to follow.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     Usually NTR is used as an acronym for netorare. The closest english translation for netorare is cuckoldry.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     Cuckoldry is when someone has sex with a person’s significant other while that person knows about it. If that person doesn’t know about it then it isn’t considered cuckoldry but instead it is called cheating.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     However there are two types of cuckoldry in western culture. Willing and Unwilling cuckoldry.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     A willing cuckold usually is aroused by someone fucking their wife. They enjoy it.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     An unwilling cuckold does not like it.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     It is important to point out that in cuckoldry the significant other and that person do not have sex. If that person then starts to have sex with their significant other while they are being fucked by someone else it is no longer cuckoldry and instead sharing.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     The difference between Netorare and Netori is point of view. If you are the person doing the cucking and fucking someone then it is Netori. If you are the person being cucked and watching it then it is netorare.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     NTR however has become extremely vague with western usage of the word. It now refers to any cuckoldry at all, Netorare or netori. This is just incorrect usage of the word but it is really hard to explain to everyone. (But i’m trying my best.)
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     This is my definition of NTR and the others now. This isn’t what everyone thinks but I’m going to lay this down right now as the Law! (Insert Judge Dredd joke here.)
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     <ul>
                      <li data-xf-list-type="ul">
                       NTR stands for netorare only.
                      </li>
                      <li data-xf-list-type="ul">
                       Netorare is the unwilling cuckoldry of a person.
                      </li>
                      <li data-xf-list-type="ul">
                       If your point of view is from the person not engaging in sex then you are being cucked and therefore netorare.
                      </li>
                      <li data-xf-list-type="ul">
                       If your point of view is from the person engaging in sex then you are doing the cucking and therefore netori.
                      </li>
                      <li data-xf-list-type="ul">
                       Any consensual sex while the person knows about it and enjoys it is considered cuckoldry.
                      </li>
                      <li data-xf-list-type="ul">
                       If the couple has sex with a 3rd person it is considered sharing and not cuckoldry.
                      </li>
                      <li data-xf-list-type="ul">
                       Only people in sexual relationships can be cuckolded. If a guy is friends with a girl and that girl goes and has sex with some other guy then it is not considered cuckoldry.
                      </li>
                      <li data-xf-list-type="ul">
                       Relatives can be a part of NTR only if the person wants to fuck their own family. This is the only exception to the sexual relationship rule as people related to one another already have a strong connection.
                      </li>
                     </ul>
                     <br/>
                     Take this definition as the correct one and it will make most of the NTR confusion go away.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     Otherwise the debate over what is considered NTR will go on forever.
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                          Only people in sexual relationships can be cuckolded. If a guy is friends with a girl and that girl goes and has sex with some other guy then it is not considered cuckoldry.
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                          Relatives can be a part of NTR only if the person wants to fuck their own family. This is the only exception to the sexual relationship rule as people related to one another already have a strong connection.
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                     One special case I can think of is if a mother falls for her son's bully. I'd still very much call that NTR, even if the son has no attraction to the mother. Obviously an unengaged mother is free to date without her son's approval, but if it's with the person who is actively hurting her son... yeah, there's a serious breach of trust there, which I think qualifies as NTR and is in fact one of the most taboo expressions of it.
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                     I would consider your second-to-last point Netorare if one or both of the protagonists harbor unspoken romantic feelings for each other but one gets "stolen" before their feelings are revealed.
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                        One special case I can think of is if a mother falls for her son's bully. I'd still very much call that NTR, even if the son has no attraction to the mother. Obviously an unengaged mother is free to date without her son's approval, but if it's with the person who is actively hurting her son... yeah, there's a serious breach of trust there, which I think qualifies as NTR and is in fact one of the most taboo expressions of it.
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                        I would consider your second-to-last point Netorare if one or both of the protagonists harbor unspoken romantic feelings for each other but one gets "stolen" before their feelings are revealed.
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                     The problem with both of these being called NTR is the lack of a sexual relationship. The definition of NTR has to involve a relationship sexual in nature or any sort of relationship can be considered subject to NTR.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     Basically if you move the marker past sexual relationship then anything can be considered NTR.
                     <br/>
                     I do agree the mother and son thing is very much like NTR. I would even usually consider it NTR. However there is no sexual relationship. Love isn’t the same as sexual attraction. Therefore the mother can’t cuckold the son. Breaching of trust is definitely a large part of NTR stories but that action is described specifically by betrayal. You can betray someone without fucking anybody. So that can’t be used in a definition of NTR.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     The loose usage of NTR usually means “stolen”. The problem with using this definition is that it can be applied to any relationship. A friend can be “stolen” if they stop spending time with you to go fuck their girlfriend. But we can’t consider that NTR. So we can’t consider “feelings” in NTR but only actions like sex. Therefore NTR doesn’t apply to a girlfriend falling in love with some other guy but never having sex with that person.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     NTR is the action of having sex. It doesn’t need to involve feelings. Therefore my definition excludes the “feelings” of people entirely and focuses on their actions.
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                     Feelings are too ephemeral to be defined but actions are concrete.
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                     See why I tried to set up a clear delineation?
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                     After some thinking I am putting all “NTR-like” stuff into a different definition.
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                     My research has yielded the word karakau as an alternative to NTR. Karakau means “tease” in japanese so I am “culturally appropriating” it.
                     <br/>
                     Karakau or KRK will be used to describe any non sex related NTR. Basically anything in which one person is “stolen” from another is KRK.
                     <br/>
                     So both the momxbully and unconfessed love situations are KRK.
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                     I don’t know if it will catch on but I am going to use it for my own sanity. So I don’t see another freaking giant NTR debate again.
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                        NTR, wither netori or netorare, and Cuckoldry, are whatever makes the soft dicked pansies reee. There is no ultimate definition because ultimately people are gonna bitch if another character even looks at the love interest in their game. So really this thread is pointless because as we can see already,
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                        those who are opposed to NTR are completely unreasonable. So no matter how reasonable your definitions, it will never work.
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                     Ah. This isn’t for people who oppose NTR. It’s just to clarify NTR for anyone interested in actually knowing what it means.
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                     While I agree that your definition is not only for any1 that oppose NTR , but you will find that that anti NTR ppl are the one that mostly confused the hell out of the word NTR.
                     <br/>
                     its not your definition is wrong , its highly correct as much as you can put it , but the problem it aint exactly the same NTR those pitchforks guys are referring to.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     Personally i call it neo NTR , but it more accurately its another kinda of new fetish that the firebrand spend all their time fighting it but cbf coming up a actual fetish name for their cause and thus hijacking the current entire NTR term which is comically only a partial subset(not even entire since netori is not only "accepted but encouraged") for their unnamed fetish.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     Simply put in this new fetish , any sexual act not solely done by MC are considered NTR regardless of circumstances and relations.  And that included but not limited to swapping,sharing,voyeurism(3rd party) and orgies etc which will trigger off neo NTR allergies reaction. Some ppl have even define that new fetish "neo NTR" is anything that is not harem which is somehow accurate imo
                     <br/>
                     But like
                     <a class="username" data-user-id="349166" data-username="@DarthSeduction" data-xf-init="member-tooltip" href="https://f95zone.to/members/349166/">
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                     said , some are so triggered by this , it already gone pass the stage that if another character even looks at the love interest in their game is considered NTR.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     Those who don't know what is NTR will ask what is NTR and benefit most from your post.
                     <br/>
                     Those who know what really is NTR have no problem on identifying NTR.
                     <br/>
                     Its those who uses this original NTR term for anything non harem that create alot of confusion and like
                     <a class="username" data-user-id="349166" data-username="@DarthSeduction" data-xf-init="member-tooltip" href="https://f95zone.to/members/349166/">
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                     said , this grp when triggered are highly unreasonable. Trying to tell define what is NTR while they are on fire is only adding fuel to fire. When they are triggered , frankly the last thing on their minds is the definition of NTR. =D
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                        While I agree that your definition is not only for any1 that oppose NTR , but you will find that that anti NTR ppl are the one that mostly confused the hell out of the word NTR.
                        <br/>
                        its not your definition is wrong , its highly correct as much as you can put it , but the problem it aint exactly the same NTR those pitchforks guys are referring to.
                        <br/>
                        <br/>
                        Personally i call it neo NTR , but it more accurately its another kinda of new fetish that the firebrand spend all their time fighting it but cbf coming up a actual fetish name for their cause and thus hijacking the current entire NTR term which is comically only a partial subset(not even entire since netori is not only "accepted but encouraged") for their unnamed fetish.
                        <br/>
                        <br/>
                        Simply put in this new fetish , any sexual act not solely done by MC are considered NTR regardless of circumstances and relations.  And that included but not limited to swapping,sharing,voyeurism(3rd party) and orgies etc which will trigger off neo NTR allergies reaction. Some ppl have even define that new fetish "neo NTR" is anything that is not harem which is somehow accurate imo
                        <br/>
                        But like
                        <a class="username" data-user-id="349166" data-username="@DarthSeduction" data-xf-init="member-tooltip" href="https://f95zone.to/members/349166/">
                         @DarthSeduction
                        </a>
                        said , some are so triggered by this , it already gone pass the stage that if another character even looks at the love interest in their game is considered NTR.
                        <br/>
                        <br/>
                        Those who don't know what is NTR will ask what is NTR
                        <br/>
                        Those who know what really is NTR have no problem on identifying NTR.
                        <br/>
                        Its those who uses this original NTR term for anything non harem that create alot of confusion and like
                        <a class="username" data-user-id="349166" data-username="@DarthSeduction" data-xf-init="member-tooltip" href="https://f95zone.to/members/349166/">
                         @DarthSeduction
                        </a>
                        said , this grp when triggered are highly unreasonable. Trying to tell define what is NTR while they are on fire is only adding fuel to fire. When they are triggered , frankly the last thing on their minds is the definition of NTR. =D
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                     Usually I classify it as romantic rival. As in, this character is also interested in your love interest and it's your job to ensure he doesn't succeed, by succeeding yourself.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     However you're right in that sometimes it's not a rival. Instances like the black best friend might also be considered NTR because you usually have the opportunity to get him laid. For instance with his mom, in dreams of desire, or the case in sisterly lust, with the mother of your sister's stalker.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     One that really bugs me is the situation in the artifact wherein you and your cousin get into the fucking your cousin business together, but the crusaders couldn't handle it, so ICCreations shoehorned an entire section of evolution to the story about how both the cousin and aunt were not interested in him anymore. Then he's completely gone in IC in paradise. Same for incest adventure, where you never even meet the male cousin who your sister just stops dating for your broke ass.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     I'm currently writing a game with heavy Polyamory. The only saving grace I have against the crusaders is a female MC. Though I'm sure that when one of the girls is fucking a teacher or something, they'll complain.
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                     Just for clarification, by crusaders you mean the irrationally vocal anti-NTR group right?
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                        Just for clarification, by crusaders you mean the irrationally vocal anti-NTR group right?
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                     Yes, like the one I quoted above, even if it was a joke, they see any hint of being cucked as heresy.
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                        Ok this is really hard to explain so I will try and break it down once and for all. I will be explaining netorare, netori, and cuckoldry. But today I am going to finally set the precedent for everyone to follow.
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                        While I agree that your definition is not only for any1 that oppose NTR , but you will find that that anti NTR ppl are the one that mostly confused the hell out of the word NTR.
                        <br/>
                        its not your definition is wrong , its highly correct as much as you can put it , but the problem it aint exactly the same NTR those pitchforks guys are referring to.
                        <br/>
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                        Personally i call it neo NTR , but it more accurately its another kinda of new fetish that the firebrand spend all their time fighting it but cbf coming up a actual fetish name for their cause and thus hijacking the current entire NTR term which is comically only a partial subset(not even entire since netori is not only "accepted but encouraged") for their unnamed fetish.
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                        Simply put in this new fetish , any sexual act not solely done by MC are considered NTR regardless of circumstances and relations.  And that included but not limited to swapping,sharing,voyeurism(3rd party) and orgies etc which will trigger off neo NTR allergies reaction. Some ppl have even define that new fetish "neo NTR" is anything that is not harem which is somehow accurate imo
                        <br/>
                        But like
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                        said , some are so triggered by this , it already gone pass the stage that if another character even looks at the love interest in their game is considered NTR.
                        <br/>
                        <br/>
                        Those who don't know what is NTR will ask what is NTR and benefit most from your post.
                        <br/>
                        Those who know what really is NTR have no problem on identifying NTR.
                        <br/>
                        Its those who uses this original NTR term for anything non harem that create alot of confusion and like
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                        said , this grp when triggered are highly unreasonable. Trying to tell define what is NTR while they are on fire is only adding fuel to fire. When they are triggered , frankly the last thing on their minds is the definition of NTR. =D
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                     You are definitely correct when it comes to the irrational hate of NTR. However when it comes to people actually knowing the definition I believe you are wrong. I didn’t know the actual definition of NTR before I looked it up to explain to someone else. I thought I understood what NTR was at the time but only recently learned its true meaning. That’s why I see people that enjoy NTR use it all the time incorrectly. Cuckolding and NTR do not have the same connotation or meaning but people use them incorrectly and interchange them all the time.
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                     I don't think irrational is the term I would use completely. It's quite rational if people thought about it. Take the biggest shitstorm that happened, Big Brother. Your a MC with goals of dominating all the women in your life yet you will let someone else take on that action. Thats the view from a dominate personality. The Cuck fetish was pretty jarring. Most of the time I see people demanding a tag so they can skip it. The lack of warning is what I would say is the biggest offender.  Now mainstream stuff getting more and more cuckish is starting to just be fatigue from overexposure. 4Chan is now loathing anything trap/cuck fetish because trolls are posting it in other threads causing annoyance.
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                        I don't think irrational is the term I would use completely. It's quite rational if people thought about it. Take the biggest shitstorm that happened, Big Brother. Your a MC with goals of dominating all the women in your life yet you will let someone else take on that action. Thats the view from a dominate personality. The Cuck fetish was pretty jarring. Most of the time I see people demanding a tag so they can skip it. The lack of warning is what I would say is the biggest offender.  Now mainstream stuff getting more and more cuckish is starting to just be fatigue from overexposure. 4Chan is now loathing anything trap/cuck fetish because trolls are posting it in other threads causing annoyance.
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                     Then again the number of quality NTR focused games on this site is super low. I only have 1 that is NTR focused and not cuckoldry. (The Tyrant) Anything else might have cuckoldry in it but doesn’t focus on it.
                     <br/>
                     I would say that other forms of media definitely has taken to the NTR fetish but adult games hasn’t caught up to the trend yet. (That’s why I am modding one and trying to make another.)
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                     NTR is not a cuckold
                     <img alt=":cool:" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite672" data-shortname=":cool:" src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" title="Cool    :cool:"/>
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     <b>
                      your beloved partner get stolen from you,
                      <br/>
                      with or without sexual relationship,
                      <br/>
                      it's about Trust and Betrayal :angel:
                     </b>
                     <br/>
                     it's more like cheating, when there is cheating tag, there is
                     <span style="font-size: 9px">
                      <i>
                       hidden
                      </i>
                     </span>
                     NTR/i
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     usually you not get excited hearing that, :coldsweat:
                     <br/>
                     but if you got excited than it's a cuckold
                     <img alt=":rolleyes:" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite677" data-shortname=":rolleyes:" src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" title="Roll eyes    :rolleyes:"/>
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     example, in swinging party, your partner prefer others than you, and later they keep fucking around without your permission, and then finally you find out, but are you to late or not
                     <img alt=":D" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite674" data-shortname=":D" src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" title="Big grin    :D"/>
                     <br/>
                     it's end up with your stolen partner with
                     <b>
                      ahegao face  :eazyHype:
                     </b>
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     netorare if your partner is a female
                     <br/>
                     netori if you partner is a male
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     i believe NTR is from japanese language, and for cuckold maybe they don't have a word for it, so people just using NTR
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     thats my opinions
                     <img alt=";)" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite668" data-shortname=";)" src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" title="Wink    ;)"/>
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                        I don't think irrational is the term I would use completely. It's quite rational if people thought about it. Take the biggest shitstorm that happened, Big Brother. Your a MC with goals of dominating all the women in your life yet you will let someone else take on that action. Thats the view from a dominate personality. The Cuck fetish was pretty jarring. Most of the time I see people demanding a tag so they can skip it. The lack of warning is what I would say is the biggest offender.  Now mainstream stuff getting more and more cuckish is starting to just be fatigue from overexposure. 4Chan is now loathing anything trap/cuck fetish because trolls are posting it in other threads causing annoyance.
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                     When you're a developer getting DMd for the "unavoidable NTR" in your game with a romantic rival who they failed to push away, you come on back. I'm sure your opinion on their rationality and behaviour will be completely the same.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     My favourite is the person who absolutely flipped the fuck out over me, in a parody of BB writing a scene that doesn't even actually happen because before things happen Alice interrupts Kira's story to reveal she's been lying to Max.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
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                        This is awful. Don't even bother downloading it.
                        <br/>
                        If you played Big Brother and you thought ''hmm, I like this, but this could use some interracial cuckholding and extremely graphic fisting,'' it might be for you."
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                     And if you'd seen some of the responses to the implication that people who don't like NTR complaining about NTR in threads for games that have stated they have NTR should be policed, yeah.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     Hell, a couple Devs have a development diary going on and the crusaders have even complained about possible NTR in their game that is still in development. There is no rationality, and you, trying to make it about rare cases like Eric, shows that you're misrepresenting the entire argument.
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                        netorare if your partner is a female
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                        netori if you partner is a male
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                        i
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                     The difference on Netorare and Netori is not the sex of the "loser" but the perspective of the MC. As described in the OP Netorare is when when MC's love interest is stolen by a third party, while Netori is the MC stealing the third party's love interest.
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                        When you're a developer getting DMd for the "unavoidable NTR" in your game with a romantic rival who they failed to push away, you come on back. I'm sure your opinion on their rationality and behaviour will be completely the same.
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                     The reason to hate NTR is rational. Not that people are rational beings.
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                     I never said people weren't stupid. I mean how many people ask for walkthroughs on games with linear storylines and a .01 release?
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                        NTR
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                        New Titty Rings!
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                     Funny but not that conducive.
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                     Yes NTR is a big issue because of how strongly it is tied with peoples emotions.
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                     NTR's definition is all over the place, so my usage of the acronym is about as relevant as some of the other definitions I've seen.
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                     Personally, I'm more interested in the story and what happens in that particular story than in some abstract definition.  And we've all seen people call out NTR in situations where it isn't really Netorare, at least from our points of view.
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                     So, while trying to arrive at a good definition is all fine and good (and a noble effort), I tend to look past the tags and at what I can find out r.e. the actual story.  I wish the OP the best of luck with that.
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                     I tend to think of such tags as 'keywords' geared towards attracting search engines anyways, in which case widening your 'search tag teasers' can increase the number of hits with your game, whether or not if (as an example) it 'barely' has say incest, bestiality, gay/lesbian sex, or netorare sorta kinda, as opposed to if some or all of those concepts are a primary driver in the story.
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                     In the meantime, go New Titty Rings!
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                     No offense to the author but I have to disagree with base of his definition. Saying that NTR is not based on emotions is like saying that incest is not based on family relations. Sexual relationship is not necessary for NTR to exists. Moreover, huge amount of best NTR Japanese titles is about childhood friends with no real relationship between a guy and woman. Love is always hinted but they're not together. Most famous NTR titles like True Blue or even NTRPG have such relations. Similiar case is with family based NTR games. Incest in Japan is not as strong as here and it's rarely mixed with other fetishes but NTR games with family members are almost always non-incest games where shota brother is being a target. Even our forum has such a game (A Curse of Pleasure) in which older sister is being used and her younger brother is a target even tho there is no incest and he simply loves her. NTR is always about emotions that's why it's so emotionally hated by those who don't like it. Problem with it is that it's a term created in completely different culture than english speaking so western people have problems trying to find a proper words for it. You're saying cuckhold a lot but cuckhold is a word created in english speaking community - in many non-english speaking countries, even western, such term (translated ofc) is almost non-existent as it's also based on some culture. To cuckhold someone you have to be in relationship with him and that's fine in NTR context. In that case cuckhold might be NTR as long as MC is unwillingly cucked. If he's willingly cucked that's not NTR as there are no real, negative emotions in him. In NTR he has to suffer. So cuckholding might be NTR as long as it's unwilling and NTR is not a cuckhold as it's much more complex and broader term. That's just how it is in Japan and since it's Japanese term I can't agree with your definition at all
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                        apokat said:
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                        netorare if your partner is a female
                        <br/>
                        netori if you partner is a male
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                        The difference on Netorare and Netori is not the sex of the "loser" but the perspective of the MC. As described in the OP Netorare is when when MC's love interest is stolen by a third party, while Netori is the MC stealing the third party's love interest.
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                     that's true, maybe because i used to play game with a Female MC, thats why i write it, like that
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                     but i belive it still netori too,
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                     i quote this from
                     <a class="link link--external" href="https://f95zone.com/threads/ntr-links-titles-resources.2711/page-8#post-545110" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">
                      HERE
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                     <img alt=":D" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite674" data-shortname=":D" src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" title="Big grin    :D"/>
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                          Netorase
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                            As if
                            <i>
                             netorare
                            </i>
                            and
                            <i>
                             netori
                            </i>
                            weren't enough,
                            <i>
                             netorase
                            </i>
                            寝取らせ also exists.
                            <br/>
                            <br/>
                            The difference between
                            <i>
                             netorase
                            </i>
                            ,
                            <i>
                             netori
                            </i>
                            , and
                            <i>
                             netorare
                            </i>
                            , is that
                            <i>
                             netorase
                            </i>
                            is the causative form of
                            <i>
                             netoru
                            </i>
                            . That is: it means to cause, or let, someone
                            <i>
                             netoru
                            </i>
                            someone. Mainly,
                            <i>
                             netorase
                            </i>
                            would be about the cuckold letting (or forcing) someone else to have their way with their partner.
                            <br/>
                            <br/>
                            For example, in English, a "cuckquean" is a woman who enjoys letting another woman (dubbed cuckcake?) have her way with his husband/boyfriend. So the cuckquean
                            <i>
                             netoraseta
                            </i>
                            her partner to the cuckcake. (I think I have seen something like this in Blade Runner 2049...)
                            <br/>
                            <br/>
                            The abbreviation of this word would be NTRS.
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                        No offense to the author but I have to disagree with base of his definition. Saying that NTR is not based on emotions is like saying that incest is not based on family relations. Sexual relationship is not necessary for NTR to exists. Moreover, huge amount of best NTR Japanese titles is about childhood friends with no real relationship between a guy and woman. Love is always hinted but they're not together. Most famous NTR titles like True Blue or even NTRPG have such relations. Similiar case is with family based NTR games. Incest in Japan is not as strong as here and it's rarely mixed with other fetishes but NTR games with family members are almost always non-incest games where shota brother is being a target. Even our forum has such a game (A Curse of Pleasure) in which older sister is being used and her younger brother is a target even tho there is no incest and he simply loves her. NTR is always about emotions that's why it's so emotionally hated by those who don't like it. Problem with it is that it's a term created in completely different culture than english speaking so western people have problems trying to find a proper words for it. You're saying cuckhold a lot but cuckhold is a word created in english speaking community - in many non-english speaking countries, even western, such term (translated ofc) is almost non-existent as it's also based on some culture. To cuckhold someone you have to be in relationship with him and that's fine in NTR context. In that case cuckhold might be NTR as long as MC is unwillingly cucked. If he's willingly cucked that's not NTR as there are no real, negative emotions in him. In NTR he has to suffer. So cuckholding might be NTR as long as it's unwilling and NTR is not a cuckhold as it's much more complex and broader term. That's just how it is in Japan and since it's Japanese term I can't agree with your definition at all
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                     You bring up good points but they doesn’t really change the situation. NTR is used too often and too broadly by the western based community of this website. Therefore my reason in posting this thread is to create clear guidelines for what is and what isn’t NTR. I even gave a new terminology for things that could not fall under my guidelines but still had that same feeling. NTR could be nuanced in nature but the people claiming anything and everything as NTR are not. Therefore this thread was created to silence anyone claiming “She fucked another guy in my game NTR Reeeeeee!!!” Will be quickly corrected and/or invalidated.
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                        No offense to the author but I have to disagree with base of his definition. Saying that NTR is not based on emotions is like saying that incest is not based on family relations. Sexual relationship is not necessary for NTR to exists. Moreover, huge amount of best NTR Japanese titles is about childhood friends with no real relationship between a guy and woman. Love is always hinted but they're not together. Most famous NTR titles like True Blue or even NTRPG have such relations. Similiar case is with family based NTR games. Incest in Japan is not as strong as here and it's rarely mixed with other fetishes but NTR games with family members are almost always non-incest games where shota brother is being a target. Even our forum has such a game (A Curse of Pleasure) in which older sister is being used and her younger brother is a target even tho there is no incest and he simply loves her. NTR is always about emotions that's why it's so emotionally hated by those who don't like it. Problem with it is that it's a term created in completely different culture than english speaking so western people have problems trying to find a proper words for it. You're saying cuckhold a lot but cuckhold is a word created in english speaking community - in many non-english speaking countries, even western, such term (translated ofc) is almost non-existent as it's also based on some culture. To cuckhold someone you have to be in relationship with him and that's fine in NTR context. In that case cuckhold might be NTR as long as MC is unwillingly cucked. If he's willingly cucked that's not NTR as there are no real, negative emotions in him. In NTR he has to suffer. So cuckholding might be NTR as long as it's unwilling and NTR is not a cuckhold as it's much more complex and broader term. That's just how it is in Japan and since it's Japanese term I can't agree with your definition at all
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                        The problem with both of these being called NTR is the lack of a sexual relationship. The definition of NTR has to involve a relationship sexual in nature or any sort of relationship can be considered subject to NTR.
                        <br/>
                        <br/>
                        Basically if you move the marker past sexual relationship then anything can be considered NTR.
                        <br/>
                        I do agree the mother and son thing is very much like NTR. I would even usually consider it NTR. However there is no sexual relationship. Love isn’t the same as sexual attraction. Therefore the mother can’t cuckold the son. Breaching of trust is definitely a large part of NTR stories but that action is described specifically by betrayal. You can betray someone without fucking anybody. So that can’t be used in a definition of NTR.
                        <br/>
                        <br/>
                        The loose usage of NTR usually means “stolen”. The problem with using this definition is that it can be applied to any relationship. A friend can be “stolen” if they stop spending time with you to go fuck their girlfriend. But we can’t consider that NTR. So we can’t consider “feelings” in NTR but only actions like sex. Therefore NTR doesn’t apply to a girlfriend falling in love with some other guy but never having sex with that person.
                        <br/>
                        <br/>
                        NTR is the action of having sex. It doesn’t need to involve feelings. Therefore my definition excludes the “feelings” of people entirely and focuses on their actions.
                        <br/>
                        <br/>
                        Feelings are too ephemeral to be defined but actions are concrete.
                        <br/>
                        <br/>
                        See why I tried to set up a clear delineation?
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                     If we don’t take a firm stance on the usage of the word then it might as well mean nothing. Let me be clear, Don’t get it twisted, The tag NTR means a fuck ton. So using it wrongly is a big problem in the western community. Japanese usage of the word is much different. Seeing as most products on this site are western in nature I have tried my level best to clear up any misconceptions between NTR and cuckolding with my post.
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                     I dont agree with this thread because you are forcing people to follow your definition.
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                     It is impossible, as even if some will follow your definition there will always be people that will not, or are not even aware of this thread.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     as for me NTR is subjective, it's about the state of mind, how I "feel" about a situation involving love, peeping, sex, betrayal, blackmailing, lost, dominance, submission and a lot more.
                     <br/>
                     to make it into "your" definition is like saying you know what love is for everybody.
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                          NTR stands for netorare only.
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                          Netorare is the unwilling cuckoldry of a person.
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                          If your point of view is from the person not engaging in sex then you are being cucked and therefore netorare.
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                          If your point of view is from the person engaging in sex then you are doing the cucking and therefore netori.
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                     This just isn't correct.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     Take for example, the manga "
                     <a class="link link--external" href="https://hentai2read.com/netorare_new_heroine/" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">
                      Netorare New Heroine
                     </a>
                     " by Kon-Kit.  In the first three stories it's almost entirely from the point of the heroines who reluctantly end up cheating, except for a few panels at the end sometimes where the husband doesn't realize he's seeing his wife getting fucked.  In the end the heroines all enjoy the sex immensely.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     Then there's "
                     <a class="link link--external" href="https://hentai2read.com/hinata_ntrism/" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">
                      Hinata NTRism
                     </a>
                     " by Kiasa.  This has a couple of stories, and they're usually from the point of view of the person who is cheating.  The 1st, 3rd, and 4th stories are from the point of view of the woman who is cheating, the 2nd is from the point of view of the man who is cheating.  In those four stories the person cheating initially did so unwillingly.  In the 5th story it's told from the point of view of the man, and someone else's wife goes after him, and he only gives in reluctantly.  Again, in the end the cheaters all enjoy the sex immensely.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     And then there's "
                     <a class="link link--external" href="https://hentai2read.com/tsuma_to_charao_ga_kieta_ntr_bedroom/" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">
                      Tsuma To Charao Ga Kieta NTR Bedroom
                     </a>
                     " by Arakure (Arakureta Monotachi), which is, again, almost entirely from the point of the view of the initially reluctant female, with the exception of a few scenes where the husband can hear her having sex in the next room, and she ends up really enjoying it.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     From manga like these (and more) me it seems that the common denominators in NTR/netorare are:
                     <br/>
                     <ol>
                      <li data-xf-list-type="ol">
                       Some kind of cheating.
                      </li>
                      <li data-xf-list-type="ol">
                       Some initial reluctance.
                      </li>
                      <li data-xf-list-type="ol">
                       Eventually giving into lust and enjoying it.
                      </li>
                     </ol>
                     So, this shows that NTR/netorare is actually more like what you called "netori", and your definition of "NTR/netorare" is just wrong.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     You can try to define it some other way, but the fact that so much material contradicts that definition will only lead to more confusion, not clarification.
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                     Here's the issue... many of us are just frustrated with all the members who play a game and the girl has sex with her boyfriend or husband so they start pitching a fit saying "NTR! Deleted!". It's gotten way out of hand. It's beyond ridiculous and is in the territory of total insanity.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
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                      Here's my personal opinion-
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                      I'm gonna be direct and very blunt. This is my personal language- I'm an older guy.
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                     I'm getting sick and tired of seeing posts by those emasculated snowflakes who go full retard over a girl having sex with her boyfriend. This isn't even close to NTR in my book so STFU and grow a pair. She's not your girl, you moronic dumbass. She has a boyfriend and you're not even on her radar, you sad sack of shit. When I see a post by those ninnies complaining of NTR where I don't think there is any, I start to think "Huh.. what happened to make them so easily triggered with extremely fragile egos? Grow a goddamn set and move the fuck on!" You know, I'm aware there's no chance to convince most of them otherwise so it's a waste of time in some cases. It just lowers my faith that humanity is gonna make it off this godforsaken rock. You get the point?
                     <br/>
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                     Question of the day... *Cue Samuel L. Jackson voice* "What the fuck
                     <u>
                      <i>
                       <b>
                        can
                       </b>
                      </i>
                     </u>
                     we do?"
                     <br/>
                     I won't stop anyone from trying and I'll congratulate you for that. Just be aware it's an uphill battle and gains won't be immediately measured but may take years or decades. Hopefully one day down the road, I won't have to deal with this NTR hysteria anymore.
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                        You bring up good points but they doesn’t really change the situation. NTR is used too often and too broadly by the western based community of this website. Therefore my reason in posting this thread is to create clear guidelines for what is and what isn’t NTR. I even gave a new terminology for things that could not fall under my guidelines but still had that same feeling. NTR could be nuanced in nature but the people claiming anything and everything as NTR are not. Therefore this thread was created to silence anyone claiming “She fucked another guy in my game NTR Reeeeeee!!!” Will be quickly corrected and/or invalidated.
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                        If we don’t take a firm stance on the usage of the word then it might as well mean nothing. Let me be clear, Don’t get it twisted, The tag NTR means a fuck ton. So using it wrongly is a big problem in the western community. Japanese usage of the word is much different. Seeing as most products on this site are western in nature I have tried my level best to clear up any misconceptions between NTR and cuckolding with my post.
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                     That's fine and understandable but definitions are meant to describe something and point is that NTR as a Japanese term is untranslatable just like loli or bukkake. In NTR emotions are everything and removing them might lead to cuckholding but definitely not NTR. I understand your concerns as since BB NTR was redefined on this forum hundereds of times. To be honest, in my opinion there is no NTR in any western game as all games we have are harem-style (not to mention incest) and protags by definition don't really care about women. Maybe Goblinboy's games are exception. It just means other males were wrongly labeled as NTR in almost every game even tho they have very little to do with that. I can accept that western community is using wrong terms but if you wish to define something it would be better to do it in a correct way.
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                        those who are opposed to NTR are completely unreasonable.
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                     Someone doesn't like what I like ..... UNREASONABLE.
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                        Someone doesn't like what I like ..... UNREASONABLE.
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                     But that's the thing. I don't like NTR. It does nothing for me. I don't get emotional about it. You are the one who gets emotional about it and crusades against it. This isn't the first time you've butted heads with a thread dealing with NTR Gorm.
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                        That's fine and understandable but definitions are meant to describe something and point is that NTR as a Japanese term is untranslatable just like loli or bukkake. In NTR emotions are everything and removing them might lead to cuckholding but definitely not NTR. I understand your concerns as since BB NTR was redefined on this forum hundereds of times. To be honest, in my opinion there is no NTR in any western game as all games we have are harem-style (not to mention incest) and protags by definition don't really care about women. Maybe Goblinboy's games are exception. It just means other males were wrongly labeled as NTR in almost every game even tho they have very little to do with that. I can accept that western community is using wrong terms but if you wish to define something it would be better to do it in a correct way.
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                     Hmm. You brought up bukkake but failed to realize that the usage of bukkake has also been westernized. We change everything. NTR is no different. To the western audience cuckolding is NTR therefore I am trying my best to create a distinction between what is and what isn’t NTR.
                     <br/>
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                     As for the emotional part of NTR I refer back to my previous post. A definition based only on the motions allow too much leeway on what is and what isn’t NTR. Therefore I have excluded them entirely.
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                     You are completely free to disagree with my usage but I am creating this definition because it is the clearest and closest thing to what NTR actually is.
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                        Someone doesn't like what I like ..... UNREASONABLE.
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                     I was talking about a very specific subset of people that truly are impossible to deal with. a better phrasing would be “those who are opposed to NTR THAT are completely unreasonable.”
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                        Hmm. You brought up bukkake but failed to realize that the usage of bukkake has also been westernized. We change everything. NTR is no different. To the western audience cuckolding is NTR therefore I am trying my best to create a distinction between what is and what isn’t NTR.
                        <br/>
                        <br/>
                        As for the emotional part of NTR I refer back to my previous post. A definition based only on the motions allow too much leeway on what is and what isn’t NTR. Therefore I have excluded them entirely.
                        <br/>
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                        You are completely free to disagree with my usage but I am creating this definition because it is the clearest and closest thing to what NTR actually is.
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                     Ofc, a lot of Japanese terms have been deprived of their original meaning and changed to fit western culture. I don't mind that and I'm aware that NTR will most likely go the same way as it's a complex term. Hell, I use it in many games we have here even tho I'm sure it's not NTR and it wouldn't be considered as such in Japan.
                     <br/>
                     I see what you're saying about emotions but that way you're just saying you don't understand it so you will change its crucial, basic attribute to fit your vision. Without pain, humilitation and other negative emotions NTR doesn't exist - simple as that. It's a form of sadism that takes pleasure out of these negative emotions. If you take physical pain out of sado-maso what will remain out of this fetish? That's why willing guy who takes pleasure out of his girlfriend being fucked by another guy has nothing to do with NTR and I doubt you can find such a thing in Japan. I know it's a different culture but when it comes to basic definitions it's better to just copy those in a market that's at least 10 times bigger than ours.
                     <br/>
                     I disagree with most points of your definition - not to attack you or your opinion, but to point out that such an inaccurate definition might feel close for you but makes things even more unclear for those who are new here.
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                     While not a fan of NTR myself, I can see the value of it in a story. It can turn the plot around and add weight, conflict and realism to it.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     That being said, it has value ONLY when it fits the narrative. NTR just for the sake of NTR is plain stupid and a cancer on the current WEG scene.
                     <br/>
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                     The thing is, most people are quick to press the "I HAET NTR!" button for every sex scene not involving the protagonist (as the OP clearly states). This is also a cancer on the WEG scene and is as stupid as NTR just for the sake of it.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     One good example would be Waifu Academy, where a gyaru (usually portrayed as sluts) type girl deceives deceives the protagonist into going to the school rooftop only to witness her giving a blowjob to HER OWN BOYFRIEND. Yeah, people raged and called that NTR... See how stupid that is?
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     Another good example is Au-Pair Inocence, where people pressed the NTR button all over when the infamous David update came out.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     Yes, yes, I know... We all (well, most of us anyway) have that fantasy of "all girls are belong to me" and that we have a magic dick that can cum N times a day without runing out of juice making every woman addicted to it and not need another man in their lives, I secretely have it too (shh, don't tell anyone
                     <img alt=";)" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite668" data-shortname=";)" src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" title="Wink    ;)"/>
                     ). But dude... DUDE! Don't be a stupid prick and disseminate this NTR 4chan circlejerk, we don't need it.
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                        Ofc, a lot of Japanese terms have been deprived of their original meaning and changed to fit western culture. I don't mind that and I'm aware that NTR will most likely go the same way as it's a complex term. Hell, I use it in many games we have here even tho I'm sure it's not NTR and it wouldn't be considered as such in Japan.
                        <br/>
                        I see what you're saying about emotions but that way you're just saying you don't understand it so you will change its crucial, basic attribute to fit your vision. Without pain, humilitation and other negative emotions NTR doesn't exist - simple as that. It's a form of sadism that takes pleasure out of these negative emotions. If you take physical pain out of sado-maso what will remain out of this fetish? That's why willing guy who takes pleasure out of his girlfriend being fucked by another guy has nothing to do with NTR and I doubt you can find such a thing in Japan. I know it's a different culture but when it comes to basic definitions it's better to just copy those in a market that's at least 10 times bigger than ours.
                        <br/>
                        I disagree with most points of your definition - not to attack you or your opinion, but to point out that such an inaccurate definition might feel close for you but makes things even more unclear for those who are new here.
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                     I don’t feel you attacking my opinion at all. In fact I really enjoy this conversation.
                     <br/>
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                     With regards to NTR in japanese culture. I am an avid consumer of hentai and have a very old exhentai account. But recently I have realized that even there, on a Japanese concentrated site, they use NTR incorrectly. Any work that has any cuckolding at all, willing or unwilling, is tagged NTR.
                     <a class="username" data-user-id="22103" data-username="@Lykanz" data-xf-init="member-tooltip" href="https://f95zone.to/members/22103/">
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                     is completely correct here. Stuff that isn’t remotely NTR is now confused for NTR because no one made a clear delineation on the site. However since they don’t have the tag cuckolding that is understandable. Since we have both on this site, I am doing my best to separate the two so that clarity is apparent for both.
                     <br/>
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                     I cannot use the commonly accepted version of NTR because it is far too broad and ill defined. But to define it I have to cut away things that mostly are considered to be NTR for clarity. Therefore I am using KRK instead for those works.
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                        I can still remember people flipping out playing Big Brother when the mom had sex with her boyfriend.
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                        I have a similar scene planned in my game and I already know I'm gonna get some shit for it.
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                     This one was always odd to me as well, I hated Eric, but after playing the game all the way till the end of its run (before mods) and started to read the thread I was super confused on the reasons every one hated him... Most seem to hate him cause he was fucking Ann (pathetically as the game states by several characters "Ann, Kira, Alice"), and were claiming NTR, when the mom didnt even like Max... let alone "wanted" Max...
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     I was like WTF ? Me personally I didnt mind Eric at first, I thought he looked like a fucking douchebag loser, but if I hated anyone at the start it was Ann (mom) stupid bitch met someone for two days, and immediately starts bouncing her ass on his dick and stays over at his house... two days later he brings him to her house to keep fucking in the living room, in her room with the door open, and in the bathroom with the door open... all this while knowing she has tow young adult daughters that this fuckwad she barely knows could end up raping them....
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     I didnt start hating Eric till like week 2 or 3 of that game, you extend an olive branch of friendship to the dude (at least I did) cause aside from looks, he didnt come across as a scumbag, two weeks later Ann (mom) drops the bomb that you should get put in Military School, and how it was Eric's "awesome" idea... than you hear his ass talking about trying to "con" Ann out of her house and put his family on the street, then he blames Max for stealing to speed up the Military School BS, than when Max confronts him he flat out tells him he wants to fuck all the female members of his family and have them as sex slaves, and starts fucking Max's Aunt Kira who is trying to help him...
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     However the people getting outraged in threads of games like "Intimate Relations" have every right to be. The NTR is avoidable, thank god, but the fact that Ptolemy the great writer of Dreaming of Dana gave better rendering an animation to the garbage NTR route than to the "good" one seems a slap in the face to his fans that loved him for what he did with Dana (making it one of the "popular games"). Not to mention the NTR cucks are the first ones to cast stones, immediately taunting the the anti-side with gems like and excuses like "fuck Christine, she was a cheating bitch" or "I hope that slut gets gang-banged, as thats all that matters in this game". Me personally if it was a likeable dude stealing her away I wouldnt mind it, but the fact that her personality went from "no one tames me, as I am angry, bitter, depressed and frustrated" to "yes Mateo I'll suck your filthy dick despite always hating to do it for ANYONE, also treat me like human garbage, I'll repress the VERY CORE of my PERSONALITY for a chance to get fucked by you"
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                        I don’t feel you attacking my opinion at all. In fact I really enjoy this conversation.
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                        With regards to NTR in japanese culture. I am an avid consumer of hentai and have a very old exhentai account. But recently I have realized that even there, on a Japanese concentrated site, they use NTR incorrectly. Any work that has any cuckolding at all, willing or unwilling, is tagged NTR.
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                        is completely correct here. Stuff that isn’t remotely NTR is now confused for NTR because no one made a clear delineation on the site. However since they don’t have the tag cuckolding that is understandable. Since we have both on this site, I am doing my best to separate the two so that clarity is apparent for both.
                        <br/>
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                        I cannot use the commonly accepted version of NTR because it is far too broad and ill defined. But to define it I have to cut away things that mostly are considered to be NTR for clarity. Therefore I am using KRK instead for those works.
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                     That's fair. Emotional, sadistic aspect of NTR makes it really despised by those who are strongly immersing themselves with MC and therefore makes some people very vocal about it. Proper definition would definitely help, but as you can see even in this thread it's not so clear and will stay as such for a couple of years probably. I always found it amusing that a fetish that's not even extreme is so hated by some people when it's basically vanilla with switched povs. It's like people hating anal when they're themselves into much more extreme fetishes. I'm sure that with some time situation on our market will clarify itself.
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                        This one was always odd to me as well, I hated Eric, but after playing the game all the way till the end of its run (before mods) and started to read the thread I was super confused on the reasons every one hated him... Most seem to hate him cause he was fucking Ann (pathetically as the game states by several characters "Ann, Kira, Alice"), and were claiming NTR, when the mom didnt even like Max... let alone "wanted" Max...
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                     I remember there being people what even called NTR on the implied "Kira fucking other guys on her job". Well, duh... She's a porn actress.
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                        I was like WTF ? Me personally I didnt mind Eric at first, I thought he looked like a fucking douchebag loser, but if I hated anyone at the start it was Ann (mom) stupid bitch met someone for two days, and immediately starts bouncing her ass on his dick and stays over at his house... two days later he brings him to her house to keep fucking in the living room, in her room with the door open, and in the bathroom with the door open... all this while knowing she has tow young adult daughters that this fuckwad she barely knows could end up raping them....
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                     I didn't liked Eric mainly because he had that "I'm a douchebag alpha male" feel and I hate this type of guys. And yeah, that was my main grip with Ann too... She was WAY too fickle ang gullible (and no, that PTSD from being kidnapped and abused was weak af and a lame shortcut).
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                        I didnt start hating Eric till like week 2 or 3 of that game, you extend an olive branch of friendship to the dude (at least I did) cause aside from looks, he didnt come across as a scumbag, two weeks later Ann (mom) drops the bomb that you should get put in Military School, and how it was Eric's "awesome" idea... than you hear his ass talking about trying to "con" Ann out of her house and put his family on the street, then he blames Max for stealing to speed up the Military School BS, than when Max confronts him he flat out tells him he wants to fuck all the female members of his family and have them as sex slaves, and starts fucking Max's Aunt Kira who is trying to help him...
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                     Strange... For me he came across as a scumbag from the get go... And yeah, when I walked into the living room the first time I was like "WTF??? She's sucking him ALREADY??? They've been dating for what? 3 days???"
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                     The military school, wallet thing where plot devices used to make us realize Eric was an antagonist and not just a "person with mutual interests". But then, the taking over the house thing was just lame and out of nowhere.
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                        However the people getting outraged in threads of games like "Intimate Relations" have every right to be. The NTR is avoidable, thank god, but the fact that Ptolemy the great writer of Dreaming of Dana gave better rendering an animation to the garbage NTR route than to the "good" one seems a slap in the face to his fans that loved him for what he did with Dana (making it one of the "popular games"). Not to mention the NTR cucks are the first ones to cast stones, immediately taunting the the anti-side with gems like and excuses like "fuck Christine, she was a cheating bitch" or "I hope that slut gets gang-banged, as thats all that matters in this game". Me personally if it was a likeable dude stealing her away I wouldnt mind it, but the fact that her personality went from "no one tames me, as I am angry, bitter, depressed and frustrated" to "yes Mateo I'll suck your filthy dick despite always hating to do it for ANYONE, also treat me like human garbage, I'll repress the VERY CORE of my PERSONALITY for a chance to get fucked by you"
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                     I didn't play IR much yet (don't know why I couldn't get hooked to it like I was with DoD. But the Mateo/Christine thing... Did her husband knew about it? If not then it's cheating, not NTR.
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                     And yeah, the pro-NTR vs anti-NTR stuff is just pathetic, it's all a big circlejerk that makes me cringe to no end.
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                        Lykanz said:
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                        I remember there being people what even called NTR on the implied "Kira fucking other guys on her job". Well, duh... She's a porn actress.
                        <br/>
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                        <br/>
                        <br/>
                        I didn't liked Eric mainly because he had that "I'm a douchebag alpha male" feel and I hate this type of guys. And yeah, that was my main grip with Ann too... She was WAY too fickle ang gullible (and no, that PTSD from being kidnapped and abused was weak af and a lame shortcut).
                        <br/>
                        <br/>
                        <br/>
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                        Strange... For me he came across as a scumbag from the get go... And yeah, when I walked into the living room the first time I was like "WTF??? She's sucking him ALREADY??? They've been dating for what? 3 days???"
                        <br/>
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                        The military school, wallet thing where plot devices used to make us realize Eric was an antagonist and not just a "person with mutual interests". But then, the taking over the house thing was just lame and out of nowhere.
                        <br/>
                        <br/>
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                        I didn't play IR much yet (don't know why I couldn't get hooked to it like I was with DoD. But the Mateo/Christine thing... Did her husband knew about it? If not then it's cheating, not NTR.
                        <br/>
                        <br/>
                        And yeah, the pro-NTR vs anti-NTR stuff is just pathetic, it's all a big circlejerk that makes me cringe to no end.
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                     MC doesnt know its Mateo who is banging Christine, but he knows she is getting fucked by another guy, the moment that decides whether you go NTR route or not, has her either submit to the MC and get dicked by him (which makes sense as her entire thought process is "All I want is to get fucked is it not ?"). If you make her choose "not submit" she immediately fights off MC and tells him "I didnt dress like this to get fucked , not by you at least" she then starts to leave the house, and the MC flat out tells her "if you leave to cheat on me dont come back... or it will be over between us" and she leaves anyway, pulls a 180 personality wise, and though she was repulsed by Mateo knowing what a trash individual he was that just wants to fuck girls, she goes back to him and gets fucked.
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                        MC doesnt know its Mateo who is banging Christine, but he knows she is getting fucked by another guy, the moment that decides whether you go NTR route or not, has her either submit to the MC and get dicked by him (which makes sense as her entire thought process is "All I want is to get fucked is it not ?"). If you make her choose "not submit" she immediately fights off MC and tells him "I didnt dress like this to get fucked , not by you at least" she then starts to leave the house, and the MC flat out tells her "if you leave to cheat on me dont come back... or it will be over between us" and she leaves anyway, pulls a 180 personality wise, and though she was repulsed by Mateo knowing what a trash individual he was that just wants to fuck girls, she goes back to him and gets fucked.
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                     Hmm... That's interesting...
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                     Maybe because I haven't played much of the game yet, but I can't feel like she's a cheating bitch... To me she sounds more like a sexually frustrated housewife who just got bored of her husband. Nothing justifies cheating, of course.
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                        Hmm... That's interesting...
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                        Maybe because I haven't played much of the game yet, but I can't feel like she's a cheating bitch... To me she sounds more like a sexually frustrated housewife who just got bored of her husband. Nothing justifies cheating, of course.
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                     You should play it, especially if you liked Dreaming of Dana, Ptolemy is a good writer, hell he made me like characters with kinks I usually dont find interesting like Jessica and her Dom fetish towards the MC, or Andrea who regresses mentally to a little girl as the game progresses, or the swinger couple !
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                     I think the problem with IR is that Ptolemy was forced by his patrons to write NTR into this game and cater to that since his last game didnt even touch on it. Being as he always tries to find a way to make fetishes and the people with them relatable and dare I say "likable", he bit of more than he can chew as its impossible to make NTR likeable when you chose to give the most attractive female to a scumbag alpha-wannabe loser like Mateo.
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                     Also Im surprised from what little snippets I told you of the plot you immediately "got" Christine's character LOL. That thread is nothing but NTR fanatics wanting to burn her at the stake (basically they want her to be a homeless disease-ridden slut that has no self-respect, and gets dicked even by the stray dog in the neighborhood as that gets them off).
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                        two weeks later Ann (mom) drops the bomb that you should get put in Military School, and how it was Eric's "awesome" idea...
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                     To be fair, if my son was such a shitty human being like Max I'd send him to a military academy too.
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                     Otherwise, Eric's entire personality was being an asshole, from the start he antagonizes the player and this escalates later.
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                        You should play it, especially if you liked Dreaming of Dana, Ptolemy is a good writer, hell he made me like characters with kinks I usually dont find interesting like Jessica and her Dom fetish towards the MC, or Andrea who regresses mentally to a little girl as the game progresses, or the swinger couple !
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                     Yeah, I liked DoD a lot, Ptolemy hit the nail on the head there. Every character there was likable, even Jhon and Maria (even though I didn't let that fatso touch Dana, lol).
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                        I think the problem with IR is that Ptolemy was forced by his patrons to write NTR into this game and cater to that since his last game didnt even touch on it. Being as he always tries to find a way to make fetishes and the people with them relatable and dare I say "likable", he bit of more than he can chew as its impossible to make NTR likeable when you chose to give the most attractive female to a scumbag alpha-wannabe loser like Mateo.
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                     As I said, I don't know why I couldn't get hooked to IR... Hmm... Come to think of it, I kinda know. The daughter there felt kinda... Hollow... I tried to follow the "marriage rekindle" route, but that guy (the husband) just felt like a thick headed old man (maybe he is one, after all).
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                        Also Im surprised from what little snippets I told you of the plot you immediately "got" Christine's character LOL. That thread is nothing but NTR fanatics wanting to burn her at the stake (basically they want her to be a homeless disease-ridden slut that has no self-respect, and gets dicked even by the stray dog in the neighborhood as that gets them off).
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                     Heh, yeah... Comes with being a writter myself. Or maybe I just played too much wegs lately so I kinda got used to character archetypes.
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                        For me who likes this genre should be like the uchiha clan ... dead
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                     Aaaaand my point was just proven... Thank you.
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                        those who are opposed to NTR are completely unreasonable.
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                        Someone doesn't like what I like ..... UNREASONABLE.
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                     There's a difference between being
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                      not liking
                     </i>
                     it.
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                     <br/>
                     There are things which I don't like, however I am not opposed to them existing.
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                     So, really all you're doing is attacking a straw man, Gomly.
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                        HiEv said:
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                        There's a difference between being
                        <i>
                         opposed
                        </i>
                        to something and
                        <i>
                         not liking
                        </i>
                        it.
                        <br/>
                        <br/>
                        There are things which I don't like, however I am not opposed to them existing.
                        <br/>
                        <br/>
                        So, really all you're doing is attacking a straw man, Gomly.
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                     Actually, I think they were being sarcastic...
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                        For me who likes this genre should be like the uchiha clan ... dead
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                     Unlike Toriyama who was right btw (#fucktheUchiha) NTR you can just avoid like the plague if you really hate.
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                        That's fair. Emotional, sadistic aspect of NTR makes it really despised by those who are strongly immersing themselves with MC and therefore makes some people very vocal about it. Proper definition would definitely help, but as you can see even in this thread it's not so clear and will stay as such for a couple of years probably. I always found it amusing that a fetish that's not even extreme is so hated by some people when it's basically vanilla with switched povs. It's like people hating anal when they're themselves into much more extreme fetishes. I'm sure that with some time situation on our market will clarify itself.
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                     Probably.
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                     to all of you that want to "remove ntr" you are very silly.
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                     i dont like incest = remove, i dont like furry = remove, i dont like harem = remove, etc.
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                     if we follow what people dont like we would not have any games at all.
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                     i say, if you dont like a genre, skip that game and play something else. stop bothering people that enjoy a genre and stop with all the arguing and bullying.
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                     Agree with everything except:
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                          Any consensual sex while the person knows about it and enjoys it is considered cuckoldry.
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                     I'd call that swinging, it would also make it clearer. Swinging is clearly defined and both parties accept and consent to it, where as cuckoldry does still have some mixed connotations.
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                        Agree with everything except:
                        <br/>
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                        I'd call that swinging, it would also make it clearer. Swinging is clearly defined and both parties accept and consent to it, where as cuckoldry does still have some mixed connotations.
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                     That technically fits, but common misconception is that swinging is done between two couples. Most people don’t know you can swing as a single person.
                     <br/>
                     Therefore I didn’t want to include an entirely new term. Cuckoldry is confusing enough to define.
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                     The main difference between cuckoldry and swinging is that all parties in a swinging couple have sex, while in cuckoldry, someone is left out.
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                        That technically fits, but common misconception is that swinging is done between two couples. Most people don’t know you can swing as a single person.
                        <br/>
                        Therefore I didn’t want to include an entirely new term. Cuckoldry is confusing enough to define.
                        <br/>
                        The main difference between cuckoldry and swinging is that all parties in a swinging couple have sex, while in cuckoldry, someone is left out.
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                     I'd disagree that swinging means both parties. As you said, you can engage in swinging as a single person ie, join either a couple as a threesome, or just have 1 on 1 with 1 half of a couple.
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                        I'd disagree that swinging means both parties. As you said, you can engage in swinging as a single person ie, join either a couple as a threesome, or just have 1 on 1 with 1 half of a couple.
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                     Ah. I think I didn't make my explanation clear.
                     <br/>
                     The reason I didn't use swinging is because I didn't want to derail the definition with a new word that didn't have a direct connection with Cuckholdry or NTR. A willing cuckhold is a person that enjoys watching or thinking about their significant other having sex with an outside person. So I think that is a better description than swinging since swingers aren't explicitly enjoying the thought of another person having sex with their significant other.
                     <br/>
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                     However some swingers do enjoy that but then I would instead classify them as cuckolds if they are not engaging in coitus with that persons significant other.
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                     <a class="username" data-user-id="17502" data-username="@Heartlessnobody95" data-xf-init="member-tooltip" href="https://f95zone.to/members/17502/">
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                     thanks for the link to this thread, I think I had skimmed it before.  I've read it more in depth this time, but there are lots of walls of text and my brain was slipping out of my ears.  Now I'm at this point, I can proudly say the box I ticked in the poll was.... "I'm confused"
                     <img alt=":)" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite667" data-shortname=":)" src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" title="Smile    :)"/>
                     <br/>
                     Reading through this I think supports my comment in Swinger Family about what definition the dev has.  Even within this thread there are several conflicting views on what is what.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     My understanding of what cuckoldry is/was/I don't bleeding know is pretty traditional -
                     <br/>
                     a) it is done to a person in a relationship and not with their consent (ie cheating if condition b is not met)
                     <br/>
                     b) someone known to both partners in the relationship maybe also the 3rd party, also knows about the cheating.  This someone could be the 3rd party, it may be a friend of one or all 3 of those involved.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     For example - GGGB - Ashley and Eric do not agree to an open relationship then she can start cheating.  When Eva finds out it becomes cuckoldry.
                     <br/>
                     If she starts cheating with Dave, it is also cuckoldry.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     Traditionally, at the point the husband/bf finds out 1 of 2 things happen, the relationship ends or the affair ends.  At this point the confusion starts.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     Swinging and sharing I'm (I think) comfortable with, I generally had the former down as at least 2 couples mixing it up all with consent and respect of limits all under the same roof and ending the evening with your SO.  The latter being allowing someone to have sex with your SO, if you are involved it's a 3 some, if not just sharing.  If you watch your SO with the 3rd party either without the 3rd party knowing you are watching or without them knowing you are the SO, then it's voyeurism.  This could also be watching your SO tease others without any sex being involved.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     Now someone introduced NTR to the frame and every time I think I have a handle on it, I loose my grip and another facet of multi-person relationships comes along. Ooh...MPR another acronym for you all
                     <img alt=";)" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite668" data-shortname=";)" src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" title="Wink    ;)"/>
                     <br/>
                     I guess my main overriding thought is that NTR is the fetishisation (is that a word?) of cuckoldry by either SO or 3rd party.  But this gets blow out of the water by the element where it's not just being derogatory to the MC, but they get turned on by it too.  Guessing really under this definition it could become a sub-set of BDSM, just when you thought it wasn't confusing enough.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     In my mind, WRT fetishes, I have cuckoldry and NTR in area of MPRs, but a lot more (not exclusively) one sided.
                     <br/>
                     As I've said all this is my understanding, some things may be plan wrong, others nearly there.  But I don't want to get in a great long discussion about it, I am slowly learning and maybe one day I'll get there.
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                  <div class="message-userContent lbContainer js-lbContainer" data-lb-caption-desc="User_17502 · May 26, 2018 at 3:09 AM" data-lb-id="post-773574">
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                        kiteares said:
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                        OK
                        <a class="username" data-user-id="17502" data-username="@Heartlessnobody95" data-xf-init="member-tooltip" href="https://f95zone.to/members/17502/">
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                        thanks for the link to this thread, I think I had skimmed it before.  I've read it more in depth this time, but there are lots of walls of text and my brain was slipping out of my ears.  Now I'm at this point, I can proudly say the box I ticked in the poll was.... "I'm confused"
                        <img alt=":)" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite667" data-shortname=":)" src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" title="Smile    :)"/>
                        <br/>
                        Reading through this I think supports my comment in Swinger Family about what definition the dev has.  Even within this thread there are several conflicting views on what is what.
                        <br/>
                        <br/>
                        My understanding of what cuckoldry is/was/I don't bleeding know is pretty traditional -
                        <br/>
                        a) it is done to a person in a relationship and not with their consent (ie cheating if condition b is not met)
                        <br/>
                        b) someone known to both partners in the relationship maybe also the 3rd party, also knows about the cheating.  This someone could be the 3rd party, it may be a friend of one or all 3 of those involved.
                        <br/>
                        <br/>
                        For example - GGGB - Ashley and Eric do not agree to an open relationship then she can start cheating.  When Eva finds out it becomes cuckoldry.
                        <br/>
                        If she starts cheating with Dave, it is also cuckoldry.
                        <br/>
                        <br/>
                        Traditionally, at the point the husband/bf finds out 1 of 2 things happen, the relationship ends or the affair ends.  At this point the confusion starts.
                        <br/>
                        <br/>
                        Swinging and sharing I'm (I think) comfortable with, I generally had the former down as at least 2 couples mixing it up all with consent and respect of limits all under the same roof and ending the evening with your SO.  The latter being allowing someone to have sex with your SO, if you are involved it's a 3 some, if not just sharing.  If you watch your SO with the 3rd party either without the 3rd party knowing you are watching or without them knowing you are the SO, then it's voyeurism.  This could also be watching your SO tease others without any sex being involved.
                        <br/>
                        <br/>
                        Now someone introduced NTR to the frame and every time I think I have a handle on it, I loose my grip and another facet of multi-person relationships comes along. Ooh...MPR another acronym for you all
                        <img alt=";)" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite668" data-shortname=";)" src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" title="Wink    ;)"/>
                        <br/>
                        I guess my main overriding thought is that NTR is the fetishisation (is that a word?) of cuckoldry by either SO or 3rd party.  But this gets blow out of the water by the element where it's not just being derogatory to the MC, but they get turned on by it too.  Guessing really under this definition it could become a sub-set of BDSM, just when you thought it wasn't confusing enough.
                        <br/>
                        <br/>
                        In my mind, WRT fetishes, I have cuckoldry and NTR in area of MPRs, but a lot more (not exclusively) one sided.
                        <br/>
                        As I've said all this is my understanding, some things may be plan wrong, others nearly there.  But I don't want to get in a great long discussion about it, I am slowly learning and maybe one day I'll get there.
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                     </blockquote>
                     No one really has defined the differences between all of them so this thread was started so we could come to some
                     <br/>
                     sort of consensus of how NTR and cuckoldry are defined.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     Here is what I think. Person A and Person B are in a romantic relationship wife/gf/bf/husband.
                     <br/>
                     A decides to sleep with  C.
                     <br/>
                     B is unaware of A and C.
                     <br/>
                     A isnt cuckolding B but is cheating on B with C.
                     <br/>
                     C tells B that A slept with themself.
                     <br/>
                     B now has a choice.
                     <br/>
                     Make A stop sleeping with C.
                     <br/>
                     Stay with A and let C and A keep banging.
                     <br/>
                     Leave A.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     Only in the case that B allows A to keep sleeping with C is that cuckoldry. B can be an unwilling cuckold. They love A and can’t leave them or make A stop sleeping with C.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     or
                     <br/>
                     They can be a willing cuckold and want A and C to keep sleeping together. They can either enjoy it or ignore it.
                     <br/>
                     Sharing is more of a willing cuckold thing.
                     <br/>
                     Voyeurism is watching anybody have sex. All porn is voyerusim.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     I think you are right though. NTR might just be a fetish about cuckoldry.
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                     Netorare and netori actually lead to same meaning 'homewrecking'. These are stories about causing affair(s) to a relation. Unlike english, japanese has active and passive forms of verbs. And therefore for nouns.
                     <br/>
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                        Active (netori) - MC is the active and causes affair(s) to a relation(s).
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                        Passive (netorare) - MC is the passive and others cause affair(s) to MC's relation. Just MC's partner can cause this affair also by being unfaithful to MC.
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                     And yes there is also a word for cuckold in japanese like
                     <a class="username" data-user-id="4264" data-username="@apokat" data-xf-init="member-tooltip" href="https://f95zone.to/members/4264/">
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                     mentioned
                     <a class="link link--external" href="https://f95zone.com/threads/what-is-ntr.12432/page-2#post-732380" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">
                      HERE
                     </a>
                     and each word come from verb netoru.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     About swinger
                     <a class="username" data-user-id="7899" data-username="@Sam" data-xf-init="member-tooltip" href="https://f95zone.to/members/7899/">
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                     said all, nothing more to add.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     About NTR hysteria, i think same like
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                     &amp;
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                     .
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                     I'm sorry that I haven't read through all of this thread, but here are just my 2 cents to add to the definition/description in the OP.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     IMHO, to the "official" definition of NTR one more condition should be added to keep endless fights about it under control.
                     <br/>
                     It may be less obvious than the rest of them, but it is the only logical solution for keeping the definition and tagging system objective and under control.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     <ul>
                      <li data-xf-list-type="ul">
                       Only the feelings of the
                       <b>
                        MC
                       </b>
                       (PC)
                       <b>
                        described in the game
                       </b>
                       matter. The subjective feelings of the
                       <b>
                        player
                       </b>
                       that he
                       <b>
                        projects
                       </b>
                       to the MC
                       <b>
                        do not
                       </b>
                       .
                       <br/>
                       (Feelings of the MC are under the control of the dev, he expects for the player to accept them. Therefore it is something clear, constant and objective. Feelings of the player are extremely individual and can not be controlled. Some members seem to think that their feelings are the only ones that should be considered for determining NTR - a ridiculous and egoistic wish that ignores those who do not share their hate or love for NTR)
                      </li>
                     </ul>
                     <br/>
                     This should be fair to everyone - for those who hate NTR, for those who like it and for those who just don't care and are fed up with endless discussions, attempts to educate the clueless or even flamewars around it.
                     <br/>
                     You can obviously re-write it to sound smoother in English and suit better with the other points of the definition.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     Please consider it!
                     <br/>
                     Thank you!
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                     I think this definition/line of thought is off.  NTR is about the feeling of shame/powerlessness association with the person watching either his GF/Spouse or any objection of desire go for a more powerful man.  NTR has to include these elements and it does not matter if the player is actually fucking/dating the person being stolen.  If the person being cheated on is detached or has enough sexual options (like the character in Superpowered), there is no NTR because there is no pain of inadequacy or weakness transferred to the player.  Like you said if the person is willingly allowing his GF to cheat or deriving pleasure from it it's not NTR because the person being cheated on controls the situation to some extent.  If a guy's girlfriend cheats on him with a less powerful man it's not NTR.
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                     NTR is fundamentally about class systems and hypergamy of the women.  A good example of NTR is Snape and Lily in Harry Potter.  They both grew up together and then Lily ended up going for the more popular charismatic guy who bullied Snape and got praised for it.
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                     NTR - a poor boy and girl grow up in a small town.  Suffer hardships and a real bond together.  Big rich king comes into the town and decides to take the girl for himself increase taxes on the townspeople.  Boy is powerless and girl is attracted to power of the King leaving the boys understanding of love and trust and connection fundamentally shattered.
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                        I think this definition/line of thought is off.  NTR is about the feeling of shame/powerlessness association with the person watching either his GF/Spouse or any objection of desire go for a more powerful man.  NTR has to include these elements and it does not matter if the player is actually fucking/dating the person being stolen.  If the person being cheated on is detached or has enough sexual options (like the character in Superpowered), there is no NTR because there is no pain of inadequacy or weakness transferred to the player.  Like you said if the person is willingly allowing his GF to cheat or deriving pleasure from it it's not NTR because the person being cheated on controls the situation to some extent.  If a guy's girlfriend cheats on him with a less powerful man it's not NTR.
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                     Two things I have a problem with. The first, you have no right to claim NTR if you and the "object of desire" are not in any sort of committed relationship. I know that this definition has been used in some japanese works, but it's based in wrong-think. If you have no claim to them and you are feeling betrayed by them being with someone that's a failure in you. I say this for a reason. Technically, you can fall for your best friend's mom, and then claim NTR when she has sex with the person she's already with. Take for instance, Summertime Saga. You can spy on his mom as she does yoga, you can spy on her in her room, and you can see that he and she are doing something together while spying. Does Summertime Saga need an NTR tag now? Or, sticking with Summertime Saga, does the fact that Roxy has a boyfriend who is much stronger than you make it NTR? See, if you're allowed to claim NTR anytime a character is intimate with another character, even if you have no claim to them, then every game with characters who actually have lives outside of fucking you needs an NTR tag.
                     <br/>
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                     The other thing is your last line. There's nothing more emasculating than if you're a "powerful" man and your girl finds more sexual pleasure in a "lesser" man. And that doesn't matter what kind of power it is. If you're rich, or disgustingly attractive, or very strong, or just the most intelligent, and she chooses some average joe to cheat on you with, that's emasculating as hell.
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                        NTR is fundamentally about class systems and hypergamy of the women. A good example of NTR is Snape and Lily in Harry Potter. They both grew up together and then Lily ended up going for the more popular charismatic guy who bullied Snape and got praised for it.
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                     Again, no. Snape has no claim to Lilly. That's a completely toxic definition and one that is a failing in the person feeling that way.
                     <br/>
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                        slim dickwitz said:
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                        NTR - a poor boy and girl grow up in a small town. Suffer hardships and a real bond together. Big rich king comes into the town and decides to take the girl for himself increase taxes on the townspeople. Boy is powerless and girl is attracted to power of the King leaving the boys understanding of love and trust and connection fundamentally shattered.
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                     Again, only if he has an actual claim to her. This is the same logic that makes the girl the bad guy for "friendzoning" you. The bad guy in this scenario isn't the girl, isn't the king. It's the fucking selfish asshole who thinks that things he has no claim to belong to him.
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                  <div class="message-userContent lbContainer js-lbContainer" data-lb-caption-desc="fauxplayer · Aug 21, 2018 at 2:32 PM" data-lb-id="post-1023242">
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                        A good example of NTR is Snape and Lily in Harry Potter.  They both grew up together and then Lily ended up going for the more popular charismatic guy who bullied Snape and got praised for it.
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                        Again, no. Snape has no claim to Lilly. That's a completely toxic definition and one that is a failing in the person feeling that way.
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                     Out of curiosity, is there a "tag" or definition for what Snape may be feeling in this example? Other than words like, I dunno, sad and dejected and jealous and powerless.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     I agree with
                     <a class="username" data-user-id="349166" data-username="@DarthSeduction" data-xf-init="member-tooltip" href="https://f95zone.to/members/349166/">
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                     about the "claim" aspect. If you have romantic affection for a girl, but she doesn't reciprocate the romantic affection and has no interest in pursuing a sexual relationship with you, and then starts to date someone, which she has every right to do, whether it's the quarterback of the football team or some geeky kid who she thinks is "sweet," that's
                     <i>
                      not
                     </i>
                     NTR.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     But on the other hand, I suppose a person could
                     <i>
                      feel
                     </i>
                     the same things whether there is a "claim" or not. To use the Snape example again, he might
                     <i>
                      feel
                     </i>
                     the same feelings if Lily was dating him but "sampling Jame's wand" as he might feel if Lily had never given him any hope at all for a relationship, and then started dating James. One is NTR, and one isn't, but a person might feel a similar combination of dejection, envy, and powerlessness. Maybe that's why some people ascribe NTR to games and scenarios where obviously NTR is not taking place.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     Someone explained NTR to me once, erroneously IMO, as "It doesn't matter if you and the girl are in a relationship; NTR is when the object of your affection has relations with another man." That seems oddly misogynistic to me; I'm not into NTR and/or cucking at all, but the hardcore anti-NTR folks seem to have serious issues with women (maybe as a result of real-life failures and heartbreaks?), as if they have "claim" on all women and freak out when women make autonomous decisions that don't revolve around them.... in a
                     <i>
                      game
                     </i>
                     . At times I want to go all
                     <a class="username" data-user-id="572" data-username="@muttdoggy" data-xf-init="member-tooltip" href="https://f95zone.to/members/572/">
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                      on their ass
                     </a>
                     .
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     TL;DR We need a convenient acronym that basically means "Yes, there are attractive girls in this game who are not currently dating you and might show interest and actually have intimate contact with other men."
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                  <div class="message-userContent lbContainer js-lbContainer" data-lb-caption-desc="slim dickwitz · Aug 21, 2018 at 2:56 PM" data-lb-id="post-1023285">
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                     I don't know who called the morality police, but I was talking about the emotions associated with NTR (jealously, inferiority, insignificance) not whether or not those emotions are right or wrong.  I don't know why you're bringing "toxic" into this or saying certain things are a "failing" on the readers part.  I'm not saying anyone is good or bad, I'm saying that NTR is an emotional fetish rather than a formal one.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     There are plenty of examples of NTR on this website that do not involve cheating in committed relationships (Big Brother, Babysitter, The Tyrant*), but everyone agrees they are NTR because they involve a powerful man (either sexually powerful, financially or both) taking the women for himself - if the women was a strong character it wouldn't be NTR as she would be making her own choice, but NTR almost always prays on women in weak situations.  It is a power fetish at it's core, that's basically what I'm trying to say.  I think we can agree that once Max starts fucking all his sisters it is not longer NTR, but a rivalry.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     Name one example of NTR that involves a less powerful man stealing the girl...
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     PS Snape/James Potter is not really NTR because James is actually a good guy and Lily Potter is not powerless, but from Snape's perspective James is his bully and represents power.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     *The Tyrant involves cheating on the husband, but he's not the protagonist nor does he seem to care that his wife is cheating on him - in fact he was the one who set it up in the first place.  The person we identify with is MC, but even then I would argue it's not really NTR as MC is mostly cool with Davide fucking his family and Davide is actually really cool towards MC.
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                     "Yes, there are attractive girls in this game who are not currently dating you and might show interest and actually have intimate contact with other men."
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                     "It doesn't matter if you and the girl are in a relationship; NTR is when the object of your affection has relations with another man."
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                     That's not what I'm saying at all.  NTR only applies if a more powerful man uses his power to take a women from her humble village - it's basically the crush of power over anything else.  If you have a crush on a mousy girl in high school that you've know since you were three and you have developed a close and delicate bond with and she falls in love with someone else and they start dating (whether he's a jock or a chess player) that might be heartbreak but it's not NTR.  If the principles son says to the girl I can get you into a good college if you start sucking me off in the bathroom (and if you don't you won't graduate) and she joins his harem where he takes pleasure in degrading her and she starts to kind of like it THAT is NTR, can we agree on that?
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                     Another instance of non NTR is Superpowered.  All the girls are fucking other men, but MC doesn't care because he's also fucking a lot of other women and generally does not feel like he needs any of those particular girls.  Summertime Saga as well is not NTR because the MC is fairly detached and gets it on with everybody from the start.  Dreams of desire - not NTR because MC has power from the start (his spells and shards) so even when the book editor forces his mom to blow him it's not catastrophic because MC has as much or more power than that guy.
                     <br/>
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                     Even if you want to use the simplistic cuckhold definition, all cuckhold porn features a weak, nerdy guy lose his wife to a big black dude or something.  It's never the other way around because that just wouldn't cause the same level of shame and fear of dominance.
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                        Name one example of NTR that involves a less powerful man stealing the girl...
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                     Elena's Life. Literally all of them. Fat shlubs who have no power. The school principle, the guy's son, the shlub of a neighbor. None of these men have any power or strength over the boyfriend character, but he is cucked nonetheless because he's unavailable sexually.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     Also, ugly bastards are very common in NTR. It's not that these guy's are stronger or better than the MC, it's that the MC is in love with a slut.
                     <br/>
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                        I don't know who called the morality police, but I was talking about the emotions associated with NTR (jealously, inferiority, insignificance) not whether or not those emotions are right or wrong. I don't know why you're bringing "toxic" into this or saying certain things are a "failing" on the readers part. I'm not saying anyone is good or bad, I'm saying that NTR is an emotional fetish rather than a formal one.
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                     I am fully aware of the point you are making, but as I tried to make clear, if anytime a woman is having sex with a more powerful man than you it is NTR, then any game wherein there are other men having sex with characters has NTR. You bring up Eric, and there is NTR, but it's not with mommy, or your sisters. It's with Kira. You had no claim to any of the others, but you and Kira were having sex, and the reason he was fucking her was because of blackmail power over her forcing her to fuck him to keep you safe. That is NTR.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     I then draw the moral distinction, because if you do feel as though this type of scenario, where you have no claim on a woman but feel an intense jealousy and betrayal, then you have a flaw to address in yourself. Something to overcome. If it's a sexual thing, you get off on it, then it's probably innocent enough and not the biggest problem, but if you don't get off on it and still have those feelings, and therefore declare something NTR and that you hate it, you are in the wrong.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     I should also lay out. People often complain that Babysitter has NTR. No it doesn't. The only way that Babysitter has NTR is if you allow things to happen that invite the NTR in. If you choose not to dance with Christine at the club and then let Robert into your house, that isn't NTR, that's a choice to ignore her and go after her friend. If you decide to leave her to her own devices with Mr. Silver when you drop her off at the Hotel that isn't NTR, that's you deciding that you don't care to keep her safe. What Robert and Silver are is romantic rivals. They're both, arguably, more powerful than you. Robert is a drug dealer with connections and deep pockets. Silver is literally your client, he pays your bills. And he's fucking rich. But it isn't NTR because they can't win if you pursue Christine.
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                        If you have a crush on a mousy girl in high school that you've know since you were three and you have developed a close and delicate bond with and she falls in love with someone else and they start dating (whether he's a jock or a chess player) that might be heartbreak but it's not NTR. If the principles son says to the girl I can get you into a good college if you start sucking me off in the bathroom (and if you don't you won't graduate) and she joins his harem where he takes pleasure in degrading her and she starts to kind of like it THAT is NTR, can we agree on that?
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                     Not unless you and the mousy girl are dating. I don't care what feelings you have for the girl, you have no right to feel betrayed in this situation unless you have a claim. Betrayal is a necessary part of NTR. You can be jealous, but if jealousy was all it took for a person to get off on NTR, then they could watch literally any porn in the world and be jealous of the guy fucking the girl. You need the betrayal, and you have no right to betrayal if you're not already dating, or at the very least fucking regularly.
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                        Another instance of non NTR is Superpowered. All the girls are fucking other men, but MC doesn't care because he's also fucking a lot of other women and generally does not feel like he needs any of those particular girls. Summertime Saga as well is not NTR because the MC is fairly detached and gets it on with everybody from the start. Dreams of desire - not NTR because MC has power from the start (his spells and shards) so even when the book editor forces his mom to blow him it's not catastrophic because MC has as much or more power than that guy.
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                     I think here you're missing the reason I actually disagree with you, and I would point above to my Babysitter example to make clear why. NTR isn't about what the character feels, it's about what you feel. You are assuming that the people who are demanding these games to have an NTR tag are the ones deciding that it's NTR. It's not about the developer's intent, it's about your feelings. That's why the definition of NTR should not be allowed to cover a character who you don't have or have rescinded your claim to.
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                  <div class="message-userContent lbContainer js-lbContainer" data-lb-caption-desc="slim dickwitz · Aug 21, 2018 at 4:53 PM" data-lb-id="post-1023481">
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                      Elena's Life. Literally all of them. Fat shlubs who have no power. The school principle, the guy's son, the shlub of a neighbor. None of these men have any power or strength over the boyfriend character, but he is cucked nonetheless because he's unavailable sexually.
                      <br/>
                      <br/>
                      Also, ugly bastards are very common in NTR. It's not that these guy's are stronger or better than the MC, it's that the MC is in love with a slut.
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                     I've never played Elena's Life, but I notice it doesn't have an NTR tag.  It's possible for someone to be a cheating slut and not arouse feelings of betrayal in the wronged partner - for instance the partner could simply not care.  I have no idea what's going on in Elena's Life, but from reading some comments it implies that she cheats with unscrupulous dudes, which is classic NTR.  And being morally unscrupulous is a form of power, by the way, because you are more willing to do whatever it takes to achieve your goal.
                     <br/>
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                     <i>
                      bring up Eric, and there is NTR, but it's not with mommy, or your sisters. It's with Kira. You had no claim to any of the others, but you and Kira were having sex, and the reason he was fucking her was because of blackmail power over her forcing her to fuck him to keep you safe. That is NTR.
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                     I actually didn't see that as NTR because Kira is basically a slut who would fuck anyone just for the pleasure of it.  Besides Max already had sex with her and was not really considering her his girlfriend, so I didn't see Max having any sort of "claim" to Kira.  She also does not reject him even though Eric is blackmailing her, so there's no loss really.  I also did not consider Mom NTR because she (at the beginning at least) has a clearly parent/son boundary with Max.  I considered Alice and Lisa NTR because they are both in Max's class and threaten to leave him when they encounter the more powerful Eric.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     Also thinking about it now I think the idea of something going on behind closed doors is critical to NTR.  The two most gut wrenching NTR scenes I've come across are Christine getting fingered by Silver while she's about to receive her phone from MC and seeing Lisa doing sex ed with Mom and Eric.  I think the reason those scenarios are so terrifying because you know that something wrong and shameful (both Lisa and Christine use shame to describe how they feel about those scenes) is happening behind close doors but you are not privy to knowing what it is.  There's also the feeling that the girl is covering up what is really happening behind closed doors which makes you feel ashamed because you are being left behind.
                     <br/>
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                     <i>
                      I then draw the moral distinction, because if you do feel as though this type of scenario, where you have no claim on a woman but feel an intense jealousy and betrayal, then you have a flaw to address in yourself. Something to overcome.
                     </i>
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     I get what you're saying, but you're basically implying that the readers feelings are invalid if there is not a formal monogamous relationship between the MC and the women.  I don't think you can determine whether anyone's feelings are valid.  They may very well be indicative of a flaw in you, but that's a different issue and sexual fetishes in generally are almost always the externalization of some deeper psychological issues.  And since we're all on this forum, pick your poison.  In your position I would refrain about judging other peoples emotions as it gives the impression that you think you are better, more psychological healthy, whatever.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     At any rate, I don't think you need to have a "claim" on someone to feel jealously or betrayal.  If you're being bullied (and it's obviously an abuse of power) and your friend or even acquaintance takes the side of your bully, anyone would rightly feel betrayed.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     <i>
                      but if you don't get off on it and still have those feelings, and therefore declare something NTR and that you hate it, you are in the wrong.
                     </i>
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     I agree with this.  If you fear and hate NTR than it obviously strikes some chord in you.  I suspect that it's similar to people who are homophobic but actually fear that they might have some gay tendencies.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     <i>
                      NTR isn't about what the character feels, it's about what you feel. You are assuming that the people who are demanding these games to have an NTR tag are the ones deciding that it's NTR. It's not about the developer's intent, it's about your feelings.
                     </i>
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     Aren't you agreeing with me?  I've been saying that NTR is about the emotional reaction the story produces in the reader.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     At any rate I think we are at an impasse because I believe NTR a set of scenarios designed to produce a cluster of emotional reactions and you think it's more a formal category that may or may not produce certain emotions.  And I agree that my definition of NTR is prone to wide swings based off of the emotional temperament of the viewer.  However, I think that the entire reason that NTR turns some people on and makes others angry is because of the intensity of the emotions that it produces which often relate back to childhood abandonment issues, rejection, fear of inadequacy, shame.  That's why it's such a powerful fetish and I believe you have cheating without NTR and you can have NTR without cheating because it's more of a mood than anything.
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                        And I agree that my definition of NTR is prone to wide swings based off of the emotional temperament of the viewer.
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                     This is the biggest reason I disagree with it being applied outside of a claim to the person, that wide swing. If we have to apply an NTR tag to every game that someone has these feeling of betrayal in, then we are opening the door for the interpretations of a minority to change the meaning of the content.
                     <br/>
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                     You bring up Christine ignoring the fact that you have to have made a choice to leave her alone. You bring up Lisa ignoring the fact that you have to have made the choice to not fight Eric. In the case of Kira, he doesn't not care, in fact, he makes a pretty big deal of it, it's the incident that allows you to move forward in getting rid of him through the Kira route. If anything, allowing those things to happen are you betraying your love interest. If you love Lisa and choose not to stop Eric, then you betrayed her. If you love Christine and you choose to leave her alone with Silver you betrayed her.
                     <br/>
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                     You can feel like you're being betrayed, but that doesn't make you right, and I think that matters. I think, in order for it to be definitively considered NTR, the betrayal of the love interest has to be intended by the writer, it has to be a conscious decision of the character who is supposedly betraying. That person has to acknowledge a loyalty to you, and break that bond of trust.
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                     Again, you can feel betrayed, you can be jealous, but that alone doesn't make it NTR. Intent is the key.
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                        PS Snape/James Potter is not really NTR because James is actually a good guy and Lily Potter is not powerless, but from Snape's perspective James is his bully and represents power.
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                     We can't call this NTR cause it is very common thing in real life. Snape is just in platonic love. If this is NTR, i am NTRed few times in real life.
                     <img alt=":p" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite673" data-shortname=":p" src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" title="Stick out tongue    :p"/>
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                        *The Tyrant involves cheating on the husband, but he's not the protagonist nor does he seem to care that his wife is cheating on him - in fact he was the one who set it up in the first place.  The person we identify with is MC, but even then I would argue it's not really NTR as MC is mostly cool with Davide fucking his family and Davide is actually really cool towards MC.
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                     In Tyrant game, mom part is more cuckoldry. I have issues to see mom part as NTR in this game.
                     <br/>
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                     My girlfriend's amnesia is good example for NTR till MC's girlfriend turned into a nymphomaniac by other characters in game and MC is a pussy hound guy flirting with other girls.
                     <br/>
                     I could give more game names for NTR but most of us don't see female protagonist ones as NTR.
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                     NTR actually means homewrecking. These games have dramatic homewrecking stories in it. Especially japanese ones can be very kinky.
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                  <div class="message-userContent lbContainer js-lbContainer" data-lb-caption-desc="0x-x-x0 · Aug 22, 2018 at 6:44 AM" data-lb-id="post-1025324">
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                        If this is NTR, i am NTRed few times in real life.
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                     It would be, if the couple fucks in front of you and at least one of them is degrading you. That's the difference between these porn games and real life.
                     <br/>
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                     I don't understand DarthSeduction problem. He sounds a little bit like a white knight or SJW. There is no other/better word like Netorare to describe the relationship between Eric, the MC, his mom and sisters in Big Brother(a typical ntr story plot). Everybody, except DarthSeduction, understands what it's about.
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                  <div class="message-userContent lbContainer js-lbContainer" data-lb-caption-desc="kiteares · Aug 22, 2018 at 7:23 AM" data-lb-id="post-1025388">
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                        TL;DR We need a convenient acronym that basically means "Yes, there are attractive girls in this game who are not currently dating you and might show interest and actually have intimate contact with other men."
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                     How about FIYCINTRA?
                     <br/>
                     Fuck It, You'll Call It NTR Anyway
                     <img alt=";)" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite668" data-shortname=";)" src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" title="Wink    ;)"/>
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                        slim dickwitz said:
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                        There are plenty of examples of NTR on this website that do not involve cheating in committed relationships (Big Brother, Babysitter, The Tyrant*), but everyone agrees they are NTR
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                          Because I was going to comment about walls of text
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                         No, everyone does not.  Go and read my thoughts on the NTR in The Babysitter discussion thread.  Chris only starts relationships with Silver or Robert if you let her either through inactivity (not warning her about Silver) or activity (dancing with Jess at the bar) and more than just one event.  Relationships do not start until the bowling night and that is down the path she has be led by your choices.  So if she goes with Silver or Robert it is because she will develop a relationship with them and neither of the other 2 (so far).  Similar applies to The Tyrant you can turn off Hard NTR, but even so especially with the older women, you have no established realtionship with them and the younger sister is only burgoning with no action when Davide starts sniffing.  Without Hard NTR on, it's hard to be caught out.
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                     Before you complain about being quoted out of context, I have quoted correctly so if anyone is interested they can go see the whole post.
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                        James is actually a good guy
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                          Again just reducing the page size
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                         Only in that he gave his life trying to save Harry, but to Snape he was a cnut and not someone I would like to have been friends with at school, but each to their own.  But it still wasn't NTR, however at least in this case the emotions are possibly the same for Snape as someone being NTR'd, but he was not in a relationship with Lily, therefore no NTR.
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                        If the principles son says to the girl I can get you into a good college if you start sucking me off in the bathroom (and if you don't you won't graduate) and she joins his harem where he takes pleasure in degrading her and she starts to kind of like it THAT is NTR, can we agree on that?
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                         No we can't agree on that as it's missing the vital info,  there is no stated relationship here.
                         <br/>
                         If said girl was your GF then, you are part way to NTR.  If it happens on the QT, then still no NTR, it's cheating (coerced cheating, but all the same).  If you or someone you know, outside the 2, know about it, it is cuckolding.  If he goes on to humiliate you with it, even if it's just by letting you know that he knows you know, then I think we are at NTR.  The power part of this is not to do with his position, it's his power over you.  Kick her to the kerb or beat him to the ground and get the girl back and he has no power and therefore no NTR.  At least that's my understanding and this whole NTR thing is so bloody vague in western literature it's dangerous.
                         <br/>
                         If she's just a friend or a more distant relationship, then it's not NTR.  Do you get the emotions involved in NTR when a friend of yours gets a new BF?  How about if you have a married sister do you get those emotions? Are either of these NTR?  I don't think so.
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                  <div class="message-userContent lbContainer js-lbContainer" data-lb-caption-desc="fauxplayer · Aug 22, 2018 at 7:40 AM" data-lb-id="post-1025427">
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                        It would be, if the couple fucks in front of you and at least one of them is degrading you. That's the difference between these porn games and real life.
                        <br/>
                        <br/>
                        I don't understand DarthSeduction problem. He sounds a little bit like a white knight or SJW. There is no other/better word like Netorare to describe the relationship between Eric, the MC, his mom and sisters in Big Brother(a typical ntr story plot). Everybody, except DarthSeduction, understands what it's about.
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                     I'm not saying you are correct or incorrect about NTR in this particular example (and of course Eric is the flashpoint of the whole NTR "crisis" on F95). But that is the whole point of this thread, because it seems like NTR means a lot of different things to a lot of different people, so let's try to define it, right?
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     You say in the first part of your post that "if the couple fucks in front of you and least one of them is degrading you" then it's NTR, so how does that apply to Max and his sisters? Kira sure. Ann? Maybe, but I'm still of the mind that your MOM fucking her
                     <i>
                      boyfriend
                     </i>
                     is not NTR until or unless the MC and his mother have initiated some kind of relationship that has become sexual in nature
                     <i>
                      before
                     </i>
                     the boyfriend enters the picture. If Eric entered the game after things had progressed a lot further with Lisa and Alice and Ann, sure--that sounds like NTR to me. But if I remember correctly, when Eric comes into the game Max hasn't done anything with his sisters or mom except spy on them and fantasize about them, and his sisters are actively rejecting his perviness at that point. In fact, Eric's entrance as a rival is what motivates Max to buy them outfits and pursue them more aggressively. If Lisa was pretending not to enjoy giving HJs to Max while Alice was pretending not to enjoy being spanked by Max by day and massaged on the couch at night while Ann was pretending not to enjoy Max's massages, etc and THEN Eric showed up, and THEN started making advances on the sisters and having sex with Ann in places where he knew Max would see it for the purpose of humiliating him, that's obvious NTR to me. But again, I'm not claiming I know exactly what NTR is, which is why I'm here
                     <img alt=":)" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite667" data-shortname=":)" src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" title="Smile    :)"/>
                     .
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     My last word on the Eric example is that he never made me
                     <i>
                      feel
                     </i>
                     like there was any NTR (but that's because Kira was a slut pornstar and I couldn't care less who she was fucking or why as long as I got to fuck her, too). Eric only made me feel like he was a
                     <i>
                      rival
                     </i>
                     that I needed to outwit and outsmart until I had the power instead of him. In other words, NTR would be the
                     <i>
                      consequence
                     </i>
                     of losing to Eric, but
                     <i>
                      beating
                     </i>
                     Eric meant avoiding NTR. Beating Eric=no NTR, losing to Eric=NTR. I can't put it more simply than that.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     Incest games make NTR more complicated IMO because, to me, the whole point of incest games, and why I enjoy them, is that there exists a natural barrier between the MC and the family members to overcome. If I'm playing a game where the MC is a single man attracted to a single woman who is attracted to me as well, then there's no reason not to date and kiss and have sex eventually, or even right away. This added conflict is why incest games are so popular I think. In an incest game, if the MC is attracted to his sister(s), and they are intrigued or naively curious or play the "I'm shy to learn about sex with other boys, but I trust you so let's "practice," their reluctance to reciprocate or their tentative steps to test the waters is what makes the game hot. So in a game where the MC has a hot sister and/or hot mom who has a boyfriend, or there's rival who wants to get with the MC's mom or sister, I just don't see how that's NTR unless you want to define NTR by the
                     <i>
                      feeling
                     </i>
                     it gives you as a player (which I'm okay with if you read my lengthy post above).
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     There are a lot of variables at play. The semantics of the literal definition of a Japanese word. The nuances of that word that extend beyond the literal definition. The fact that most of the games we play now are in development. The notion that the mere existence of a rival male triggers some people for reasons I don't understand.
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                     At the end of the day this discussion is a fun intellectual exercise. If it stops being fun to discuss, I'll bail and leave you all with this:
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                        I don't understand DarthSeduction problem. He sounds a little bit like a white knight or SJW. There is no other/better word like Netorare to describe the relationship between Eric, the MC, his mom and sisters in Big Brother(a typical ntr story plot). Everybody, except DarthSeduction, understands what it's about.
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                     How about a Romantic rival? I literally said it before.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     If I sound like an SJW or "white knight" for telling people that they are responsible for their own mistakes and that they can't claim NTR anytime a woman they're interested in finds someone they are themselves interested in, then you sound like an incel for blaming women for all your problems. See how stupid this gets when we resort to name calling and generalizations rather than understanding that this is a nuanced subject and that there should be a hard line?
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                        It would be, if the couple fucks in front of you and at least one of them is degrading you. That's the difference between these porn games and real life.
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                     You make a somewhat good point here, but I don't know that I'd apply it to any Eric related scenario beyond Kira. Kira is the only one who you've initiated any sort of claim to. In order for Eric to gain either of your sisters you have to fail to keep their loyalty on your side, first, then you have to also fail to get rid of Eric. If you're working with Eric it's not NTR, it's something completely different. More like consensual voyeurism. It certainly isn't NTR though, if you are choosing this path.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     This is where I come again to my conclusion from before. If the character who is "betraying" does not acknowledge that there is something to betray, it is not NTR. Because otherwise the definition is too broad and covers everything.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     It should be noted, I don't have a problem with NTR. It doesn't do anything extra for me, and more often than not I end up getting off on some other aspect of it, like the taboo of being the cheater if I empathise with the cheater, or the taboo of stealing someone else's lover, if I empathize with the homewrecker. I'm weird like that and able to empathize with more than most. But that same level of empathy is why I can't allow your definition, because then I'd have to feel the taboo of cheating, or the taboo of wrecking, and without those things, I don't understand how it can be NTR. Yes, I'm aware that cheating alone isn't NTR, I'm aware that fucking other people's women isn't inherently NTR, but these things are required ingredients.
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                  <div class="message-userContent lbContainer js-lbContainer" data-lb-caption-desc="kiteares · Aug 22, 2018 at 8:22 AM" data-lb-id="post-1025493">
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                        There are a lot of variables at play. The semantics of the literal definition of a Japanese word. The nuances of that word that extend beyond the literal definition. The fact that most of the games we play now are in development. The notion that the mere existence of a rival male triggers some people for reasons I don't understand.
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                        At the end of the day this discussion is a fun intellectual exercise. If it stops being fun to discuss, I'll bail and leave you all with this:
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                     These are the 2 key points here, AFAIAC.
                     <br/>
                     1 point you keep mentioning is
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                        some kind of relationship that has become sexual in nature
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                     This I disagree with.  A relationship that if allowed to follow its natural progression would lead to a sexual one, I could go with.  The couple that have agreed to go out together (go steady in the US?), but also agreed to go slow or save themselves, then along comes Mr I'm fucking wonderful and coaxes your virgin bride to be into a sexual relationship, to me is still on the road to NTR.
                     <br/>
                     The other side is the bit you mentioned about Kira, all through we are given the impression she is still working and therefore fucking other men for the films, but this is on set and at if more away from the house.  When Eric fucks her, Max has already started with her and the scene is very much Eric getting in Max's face when they are caught.  The films/work is not NTR, the confrontation with Eric is.
                     <br/>
                     BTW - Stole your GIF
                     <img alt=":p" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite673" data-shortname=":p" src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" title="Stick out tongue    :p"/>
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                     <br/>
                     Something I saw when re-reading this page was by
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                        NTR actually means homewrecking. These games have dramatic homewrecking stories in it.
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                     Works well for me, while it might not always wreck a home; GF and BF still living apart, the wimp-husband, the husband with a humiliation fetish.  The implicit meaning is all the ingredients to wreck homes (perhaps better, wreck relationships) are at play.  But then if it's the fetish aspect in play, then it wouldn't wreck a house or relationship.  Maybe vanilla home wrecking?  OMFGG just when you think it's easy, the Vulcan's have it right, no emotions = no jealousy = no NTR.
                     <br/>
                     This also works applying Occam's Razor to the thread. :eazyHype: Next, the true meaning of 42.
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                        OMFGG just when you think it's easy, the Vulcan's have it right, no emotions = no jealousy = no NTR.
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                     I mean, self confidence and a lack of possessiveness toward the people you love would work too. I don't think that swingers all necessarily get off on their wife/husband fucking other people, some just want to be allowed to enjoy the company of others without attachment, but still love their partner and want to live and be with them. I would, of course, never suggest that people need to adopt this lifestyle, but I must say, when you do there seems to be a lot less pain.
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                  <div class="message-userContent lbContainer js-lbContainer" data-lb-caption-desc="Kara Zor-El · Aug 22, 2018 at 8:42 AM" data-lb-id="post-1025517">
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                     <a class="username" data-user-id="292059" data-username="@kiteares" data-xf-init="member-tooltip" href="https://f95zone.to/members/292059/">
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                     <br/>
                     No comments to your posts about NTR. You know NTR pretty well. x'D
                     <br/>
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                        It would be, if the couple fucks in front of you and at least one of them is degrading you. That's the difference between these porn games and real life.
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                     Well your example was about Potters and Snape. Lily picked James as her partner. If one of them forcing and degrading Snape to watch their fuck, I might call it NTRS (netoraSe) which means cuckold. If Snape was watching their fuck secretly, it would be just jealousy and voyeurism. Snape's love to Lily is just platonic.
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                        There is no other/better word like Netorare to describe the relationship between Eric, the MC, his mom and sisters in Big Brother(a typical ntr story plot). Everybody, except DarthSeduction, understands what it's about.
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                     My thoughts about Big Brother. Only NTR (netoraRe) in that game was related with aunt Kira. She is blackmailed by Eric for sex. He was turning Kira to his slut by forcing her and it was ruining MC's relation with Kira.
                     <br/>
                     Mom scenes with Eric were mostly voyeurism for my taste.
                     <br/>
                     There could be NTR related with lil sister but dev ended it so soon cause NTR hysteria.
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                        This I disagree with.  A relationship that if allowed to follow its natural progression would lead to a sexual one, I could go with.  The couple that have agreed to go out together (go steady in the US?), but also agreed to go slow or save themselves, then along comes Mr I'm fucking wonderful and coaxes your virgin bride to be into a sexual relationship, to me is still on the road to NTR.
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                     I find myself agreeing with you, now that you phrase it that way. Good example. That's why I'm here! But it still goes back to what
                     <a class="username" data-user-id="349166" data-username="@DarthSeduction" data-xf-init="member-tooltip" href="https://f95zone.to/members/349166/">
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                     defined as a "claim," which I also agree with. If two virgins agree to go out together but also agree to abstain from any physical contact for the time being, or wait until after marriage, or whatever, the male still has a
                     <i>
                      claim
                     </i>
                     .
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     I hired an attorney and he came up with this qualifier: A relationship in which the male can legitimately and reasonably conclude is heading in the sexual direction that he desires because of a claim based on mutual agreement between both parties.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     I went down to the local pub and ran it by Sully and Murph, and after some lively back-and-forth we also agreed that just because a girl turns your shrimpy-limpy vagina-miner into a one-eyed purple-headed yogurt slinger, that is not a claim. (Sully and Murph have a unique way with words.)
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                         I won't get as deep into the differences between NTR and "on the road to NTR" in a game as I might like to, but you're onto something there. I think when some people get the slightest whiff that NTR
                         <i>
                          might
                         </i>
                         happen, they can get upset, even if it's meant simply to create drama, such as the introduction of a rival. I've seen devs bashed for introducing a rival when there are NO plans for that rival to have ANY chance of success, and the pitchforks come out still. I don't like NTR, but I like drama and conflict and especially a rival that motivates me to
                         <i>
                          WIN
                         </i>
                         , so.... oh man, this tangent could be it's own essay so I'll stop.
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                     <br/>
                     So if we're using the Snape, Lily, and James example, I don't believe it's NTR. Snape cannot reasonably conclude his relationship with Lily is heading in a direction that will lead to sex, and, more importantly, if he does conclude that, he is deluded and mistaken and that's on him. Even if Lily "led him on" or "gave him hope" that's still his fault for not understanding the nature of the relationship. BUT! He still has every right to
                     <i>
                      feel
                     </i>
                     dejected and even humiliated when she chooses James, especially given the power dynamic involved, and that's where things get weird. Not to repeat too much of my earlier post, but if he feels pretty much the same feelings he would feel if he had a claim on Lily and she betrayed him and then James lorded it over him, then maybe it's not
                     <i>
                      literally
                     </i>
                     NTR, but it sure as hell feels like it, so what's the difference in the end?
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                         Can I pause to say how fucking weird it is that
                         <br/>
                         1) I'm using characters from Harry Potter in a discussion intended to define a nuanced Japanese fetish, and
                         <br/>
                         2) It actually helps me understand it! Kudos to
                         <a class="username" data-user-id="762107" data-username="@slim dickwitz" data-xf-init="member-tooltip" href="https://f95zone.to/members/762107/">
                          @slim dickwitz
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                         for the original example
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                     But then if we're using the Max and his family examples, I interpret those situations as scenarios where it is NOT reasonable for Max to conclude that he and his mom or sisters are in relationships where sexual contact would be a part of a normal progression, at least at the point where Eric enters the game. Why? Because Alice and Lisa are his
                     <i>
                      sisters
                     </i>
                     ! Ann is his
                     <i>
                      mother
                     </i>
                     ! That's what I meant when I said incest complicates things. Obviously, the
                     <i>
                      player
                     </i>
                     of the game can reasonably conclude there will be sexual relations because that is the point of the game. So the
                     <i>
                      player
                     </i>
                     has reasonable expectations that Max's relationship with Ann and Lisa and Alice will result in sex, but if Max is expecting it from the beginning, he's delusional. Fortunately we're playing a game and he gets to have fun with his delusions eventually
                     <img alt=":)" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite667" data-shortname=":)" src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" title="Smile    :)"/>
                     .
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     <blockquote class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeBlock--expandable bbCodeBlock--quote">
                      <div class="bbCodeBlock-title">
                       <a class="bbCodeBlock-sourceJump" data-content-selector="#post-1025493" data-xf-click="attribution" href="/goto/post?id=1025493">
                        kiteares said:
                       </a>
                      </div>
                      <div class="bbCodeBlock-content">
                       <div class="bbCodeBlock-expandContent">
                        The other side is the bit you mentioned about Kira, all through we are given the impression she is still working and therefore fucking other men for the films, but this is on set and at if more away from the house.  When Eric fucks her, Max has already started with her and the scene is very much Eric getting in Max's face when they are caught.  The films/work is not NTR, the confrontation with Eric is.
                       </div>
                       <div class="bbCodeBlock-expandLink">
                        <a>
                         Click to expand...
                        </a>
                       </div>
                      </div>
                     </blockquote>
                     Here's my original explantion:
                     <br/>
                     <blockquote class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeBlock--expandable bbCodeBlock--quote">
                      <div class="bbCodeBlock-title">
                       <a class="bbCodeBlock-sourceJump" data-content-selector="#post-1025427" data-xf-click="attribution" href="/goto/post?id=1025427">
                        fauxplayer said:
                       </a>
                      </div>
                      <div class="bbCodeBlock-content">
                       <div class="bbCodeBlock-expandContent">
                        My last word on the Eric example is that he never made me
                        <i>
                         feel
                        </i>
                        like there was any NTR (but that's because Kira was a slut pornstar and I couldn't care less who she was fucking or why as long as I got to fuck her, too). Eric only made me feel like he was a
                        <i>
                         rival
                        </i>
                        that I needed to outwit and outsmart until I had the power instead of him.
                       </div>
                       <div class="bbCodeBlock-expandLink">
                        <a>
                         Click to expand...
                        </a>
                       </div>
                      </div>
                     </blockquote>
                     And now I'm probably contradicting myself, or at least not being consistent, because I have to admit that that the scenario itself
                     <i>
                      is
                     </i>
                     NTR. Max does, and should, feel dejected and humiliated. But as a
                     <i>
                      player
                     </i>
                     I didn't really care... I didn't feel cucked, or bullied, or degraded, or humiliated.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     So it's interesting that a player might
                     <i>
                      feel
                     </i>
                     the similar feelings of the effects of NTR even when no NTR is taking place, but then
                     <i>
                      not
                     </i>
                     feel those feelings when NTR
                     <i>
                      is
                     </i>
                     taking place.
                     <b>
                      ETA
                     </b>
                     : But that's on me as a player who had little interest pursuing Kira compared to my interest in pursuing Lisa, Alice, and Ann (poor Olivia... always getting left out).
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     Rudyard Kipling once said "East is East, and West is West, and never the twain shall meet." So maybe it's a fruitless endeavor getting to the heart of Japanese neotare.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
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                        kiteares said:
                       </a>
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                      <div class="bbCodeBlock-content">
                       <div class="bbCodeBlock-expandContent">
                        BTW - Stole your GIF
                        <img alt=":p" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite673" data-shortname=":p" src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" title="Stick out tongue    :p"/>
                       </div>
                       <div class="bbCodeBlock-expandLink">
                        <a>
                         Click to expand...
                        </a>
                       </div>
                      </div>
                     </blockquote>
                     All my GIFs are free for the taking
                     <img alt=":)" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite667" data-shortname=":)" src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" title="Smile    :)"/>
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                     <br/>
                     It wasn't my example. I know nothing about Harry Potter.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     I agree to the point, when you say, there must be a relationship between the MC and the woman. It can't be some random girl from the streets. But for me it doesn't have to become a romantic or sexual relationship to be NTR. Especially not in incest games. A one side romantic/sexual interest is enough.
                     <br/>
                     It's a porn game, so the player has a "claim" to all hot woman in these games. Kira is a slut who fucks everybody. Eric is not really stealing her from the player(maybe a little bit). Anyway, as a NTR-Fan I feel less with Kira, then with the mom or the sisters.
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                        But for me it doesn't have to become a romantic or sexual relationship to be NTR. Especially not in incest games. A one side romantic/sexual interest is enough.
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                     See, but that's the point of this thread. Every "dictionary" definition of neotare I've ever seen, and every hentai-fan essay on the topic I've ever read, clearly refers to the concept of
                     <i>
                      infidelity
                     </i>
                     being a central component of NTR. One party in the relationship has a reasonable expectation, either explicit or implied, of fidelity, but then that trust is broken. Discarding or ignoring the literal definition and saying a "one-sided" interest is enough seems like you're changing the definition of NTR to suit your desire of what you
                     <i>
                      want
                     </i>
                     NTR to mean. If you read my post in the previous page where I jumped in, my main point was that we needed a
                     <i>
                      different
                     </i>
                     term for what you're describing. As I've said multiple times, you can
                     <i>
                      feel
                     </i>
                     the same feelings whether the relationship is one-sided or not.
                     <br/>
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                        It's a porn game, so the player has a "claim" to all hot woman in these games.
                       </div>
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                         Click to expand...
                        </a>
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                     </blockquote>
                     The player might have a claim, but that doesn't mean the main character has a claim, or even should. The extent to which a player immerses himself in the game has a lot to do with this. I tend to play games, and especially VNs, from a third-person perspective. I am not Max. I'm Max's puppeteer, and I'm pulling his strings. Hopefully I'm pulling the right strings to make him successful.
                     <br/>
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                        Kira is a slut who fucks everybody. Eric is not really stealing her from the player(maybe a little bit). Anyway, as a NTR-Fan I feel less with Kira, then with the mom or the sisters.
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                     Ha! I definitely agree with you here, and it's interesting you say that as an NTR fan. And now I'm back to contradicting myself by saying that because Max could not possible expect
                     <i>
                      fidelity
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                     with Kira, it's not NTR, even if it does feel like that to some players as Eric lords it over Max.
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                     This is fun, but my brain hurts. Discussing NTR in incest-porn games is some Inception-level shit.
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                        Kira is a slut who fucks everybody. Eric is not really stealing her from the player(maybe a little bit)
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                        Max could not possible expect
                        <i>
                         fidelity
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                        with Kira, it's not NTR, even if it does feel like that to some players as Eric lords it over Max.
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                     Now, I know Kira is written to be a slut, but aside from you, your mom, and Eric who is she actually depicted as having sex with? No one, right? At least up to the point where the plot with Eric begins? To me being a porn star does not meet the necessary requirement, especially since you know what she does when you start. It's when, outside of work, she fucks someone that she is losing her fidelity. Don't get me wrong, she is a slut, it might not be reasonable to expect fidelity, but it's reasonable to say he has a claim, so when the infidelity occurs, and it's not only infidelity, but it's with Eric, the man hell bent on screwing you over, that means something. Even if it means nothing to you, as the player, it is quintessentially NTR, because it means something to Max. Max is livid with both of them, feels incredibly betrayed by Kira, and it's not till she explains things that he calms down and is willing to see reason.
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                        It's a porn game, so the player has a "claim" to all hot woman in these games.
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                     Expanding on what Fauxplayer said here:
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                        The player might have a claim, but that doesn't mean the main character has a claim, or even should.
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                     This is where my argument of intent comes into play. As a developer I should have the freedom to develop a character with a crush on a girl who is probably out of his league. I should be able to include a scene where he stumbles upon the object of his affection mid coitus with a stronger man. I should be able to have that man catch him and rub it in his face, or kick his ass. And then use that as motivation for my character to take action to make changes and overcome this weakness, whether he ends up getting the crush or not, and not be forced by the audience to include an NTR tag, because it was never my intent. Nor was it the intent of the crush to "betray" the MC.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     The reason I am opposed to this definition of NTR is it forces the developer to add a tag to their game that they don't intend, it allows people to smear your game as something it's not for the sake of their like or dislike of the fetish. It forces me to change something about my game because of baggage you bring to it. Facts don't care about feelings. The facts are that the MC has no claim to this object of his affection and therefore this object of his affection cannot betray him. He can be jealous, he can be angry, he can feel these emotions, but at the end of the day, intent matters.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     My game deals with polyamory. There's a character who the MC can pursue who will have sex with her math teacher. I shouldn't have to tag the game with NTR because one character who the MC can date decides to have sex, and gets caught doing so by the MC, with their teacher, meaning he has power over my MC.
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                     I wish f95 someday develops a feature where users can see the definition of a tag instead of just viewing which games contain tagged content.
                     <br/>
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                     I also liked VNDB's definition of Netorare because it makes sense and it correctly dissociates the term from cheating and netori (which is so frequently mistaken for NTR on f95 hence my suggestion of a definition system).
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                           For a game to be classified as Netorare the following conditions must be met:
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                           1. The heroine either must be romantically involved with the protagonist, a potential romance for him or of someone that the protagonist shares such a close relationship (sister, mother, osananajimi etc.) that jealousy is a factor.
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                           2. Related sexual events are explicitly shown to the player or at least described in detail.
                           <br/>
                           <br/>
                           This does not include relationships of heroines that are outside the route you follow.
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                           Explanation: Route 1 is for Heroine A, the protagonist is romantically involved with her. During that route, if she sleeps with other characters than the protagonist, it would be NTR.
                           <br/>
                           But during Route 2, which is about Heroine B, where the protagonist has no romantic relationship with Heroine A, her having sex with others wouldn't count as NTR.
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                        Exactly, I don't understand why he's talking about misogyny or other crap like that.  It literally has nothing to do with what we are talking about and I've never actually seen anyone else talk about stuff like on this forum (good riddance).
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                     Pretty sure it was faux and not me who threw the misogyny card. Not that it really matters. I say again, as I did before, if I sound like an SJW for challenging you to better yourself when you, without a claim, justify feelings of betrayal, then you sound like an Incel for feeling betrayed by a woman you didn't have the balls to confess to.
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                     Name calling gets us nowhere. But analyzing where your feelings come from and whether or not they are justified does. If you are feeling something that isn't there, sure, you feel it, but the fact still remains that the breech of trust necessary to actually facilitate NTR doesn't exist.
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                        It's a porn game, so the player has a "claim" to all hot woman in these games. Kira is a slut who fucks everybody. Eric is not really stealing her from the player(maybe a little bit). Anyway, as a NTR-Fan I feel less with Kira, then with the mom or the sisters.
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                     Feelings for Kira may vary depends on player. Even Kira is a slut, she was bestie of MC in that house. She was helping MC a lot to corrupt family for MC. She was in love with her sister and she was aware Eric is a bad person. For to help MC has better life in house and not to make her sister sad, she did sacrifice herself. Without Kira's helps, MC would be very pathetic character in the game. MC would be a just wanker and spanky boy in the house without Kira and big sister's girlfriend help. Both girl helped a lot to corrupt family and get rid of Eric. As a NTR fan i felt more with Kira then others. x'D
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                     The thing is you are telling people when it's ok or not ok to have feelings of betrayal and jealously, when it's totally not your place to do, and saying it's a failing on their part if they have those feelings.  I don't think that's cool and it polarizes the discussion from the start.  You should be trying to understand why people feel jealously and betrayal and trying to find common ground rather than insulting people who feel differently than you.  You're not actually an authority on when it's healthy or ok to feel betrayed, but you're acting like you are.  If you don't care either way about NTR that's fine, but a lot of people have strong emotional reactions to it (in both directions) which should clue you in that they have different emotional triggers than you.
                     <br/>
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                     Again nearly everyone would have feelings of betrayal and jealously if their close friend, or sibling, or mom started fucking their bully especially if they did so because they were trying to validate the bully (as opposed to the pure pleasure of fucking the bully).  That's exactly what happened with Eric in Big Brother.  Max (rightly) felt that his family should have his back and not do things to harm him.  If Eric is bullying him and his whole family starts validating Eric sexually (which is often the driving force of a mans ego, especially in people like Eric who get off on domination) than there are validating Eric's position as the dominant man and your position as the bitch.  So its definitely a betrayal and an abandonment.
                     <br/>
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                     The reason Kira is not NTR is because she is not validating Eric's position as the dominant male.   She just likes sex and regularly switches between a Dom and Sub role.  She also has already fucked Max - validating him sexually as well.  So he might not like seeing Kira blackmailed into sex with Eric but it doesn't activate the sickening feeling of inadequacy.
                     <br/>
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                     Let's start with a simple question, do you think there is a valid "claim" that someone who you are close with (not sexually, just as friends or family members) to treat you with respect?
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                        As a NTR fan i felt more with Kira then others.
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                     I respect that.  I think NTR can be different for every person because it's more of a mood than a hard category.  It's actually really silly for people to be trying to define hard categories for NTR.  If it causes sickening feelings of jealously, betrayal and abandonment for a large group of people (which was the case for Big Brother) it's NTR.
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                     I think a good way to bridge the gap between the two sides of this thread is to understand that for some people sexual fidelity is indistinguishable from emotional fidelity.  So if you're in a friendship with someone you have an emotional claim on them (IE that they are not going to betray you emotionally).  Your friend sexually validating your bully is the same in your mind as an emotional betrayal (not for everyone but for most I would think).  So that is one form of NTR.
                     <br/>
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                     Another form of NTR is the Silver/Christine thing.  Can someone provide a reasoning for why that evokes NTR feelings?
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                     The only common thread in NTR scenarios is that there person causing the NTR (the person fucking the girl instead of you) is a bad guy.  I think that, above anything else, causes NTR feelings.  Why?
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                        I mean, self confidence and a lack of possessiveness toward the people you love would work too. I don't think that swingers all necessarily get off on their wife/husband fucking other people, some just want to be allowed to enjoy the company of others without attachment, but still love their partner and want to live and be with them. I would, of course, never suggest that people need to adopt this lifestyle, but I must say, when you do there seems to be a lot less pain.
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                     You don't think people can be self confident and feel jealous or betrayed?  Seems like a real self confident person would be fine admitting he feels jealous and working through it rather than denouncing it.  In this whole thread you seem to be implying that people who like NTR or feel jealously or betrayal when you don't think it's valid are inferior to you.  Correct me if I'm wrong
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                        Another form of NTR is the Silver/Christine thing.  Can someone provide a reasoning for why that evokes NTR feelings?
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                     Sorry but which game is it?
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                     NTR tag as a whole should be removed and replaced by several normal English tags:
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     Cucking = When you're the one doing it, wether as a woman or as a man cucking another man. My girlfriends Amnesia could be this if the main character decides to pursue such path
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     Cucked = When you're the one that it's being done to wether willingly or not. Also don't know any titles for this.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     Cuckquean = When you're the woman that is getting cucked by her husband and you accept it or suffer trough it or enjoy it. Nothing for this.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     Romantic or Sexual rival = When you need to compete for love or sex with another person in the story. Last controversy with Lancaster Boarding house is a bit of this, though there is no competition since you can't stop it
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     Homewrecking / Homewrecked = When you /another character destroys the established relationship trough your or their actions. My Girlfriends Amnesia could be this if other characters manage to get their way
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                     This is a long post, You gave me a lot to respond to, and I wanted to be as detailed as possible.
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                        Again nearly everyone would have feelings of betrayal and jealously if their close friend, or sibling, or mom started fucking their bully especially if they did so because they were trying to validate the bully (as opposed to the pure pleasure of fucking the bully)
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                         I am an actual siscon, I have feelings for my sister that I don't think are healthy, but I do not, nor have I ever cared who she decides to be with, so long as that person doesn't hurt her. If that person were a person that I felt was abusive toward me in my life, I wouldn't let it happen. My feelings wouldn't be that of betrayal, they'd be of concern. I wouldn't be thinking of myself, I'd be thinking of her safety.
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                        That's exactly what happened with Eric in Big Brother. Max (rightly) felt that his family should have his back and not do things to harm him. If Eric is bullying him and his whole family starts validating Eric sexually (which is often the driving force of a mans ego, especially in people like Eric who get off on domination) than there are validating Eric's position as the dominant man and your position as the bitch. So its definitely a betrayal and an abandonment.
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                         I understand your framing here, but I also see it as a choice you have to make in all cases but the mother. And specifically in the case of the Mother, I find it very hard to accept this definition, as if anytime a mom dates an asshole we have an NTR scenario then we have, once again, just hugely broadened the definition of NTR. Take, for instance, My Summer with Mom and Sis. Your dad is as bad if not worse than Eric in this game, do we have to consider it NTR now? If your mom loved you she wouldn't allow your abusive father to stay in the house, right? She is betraying you by choosing to stay with him rather than divorce, isn't she?
                         <br/>
                         <br/>
                         Again, especially in the case of your sisters, if you are not earning their loyalty then it is your fault when they end up with Eric. And we have to be honest, when it comes to Max, before Eric is even in the picture, you've already betrayed their trust by being a creeper. So if they don't remain loyal to you, you have no one to blame but yourself.
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                        The reason Kira is not NTR is because she is not validating Eric's position as the dominant male. She just likes sex and regularly switches between a Dom and Sub role. She also has already fucked Max - validating him sexually as well. So he might not like seeing Kira blackmailed into sex with Eric but it doesn't activate the sickening feeling of inadequacy.
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                         I still, very much disagree with you in regards to Kira. And this kinda flips into territory I'd rather not hit in this discussion, because as much as you accuse me of insulting you, I'm not trying to, I'm trying to educate. The fact that Kira is a slut does not mean that Kira has no expectation of loyalty. You can be a slut and be loyal. But the specific scenario in which it is shoved in your face that he is fucking her because of blackmail, because she's protecting you, that is the most NTR thing I can imagine. She's not fucking him because she wants to, and as we all know, cheating isn't necessary, she's fucking him because she has to, and he's smug about it.
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                        Let's start with a simple question, do you think there is a valid "claim" that someone who you are close with (not sexually, just as friends or family members) to treat you with respect?
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                         No, but let me be clear. As I said above, Max has a reputation before the game ever starts for being a pervert. When a person has worn away the trust of those around them, as Max has, that person loses the claim to respect from those people. They might still have concern for you, hence, not throwing you out when you falter, but instead sending you to military school, so that you are given the opportunity to change through the harsh environment.
                         <br/>
                         <br/>
                         And that extends beyond that, if your father character is a dad is a dick stereotype, he doesn't have a right to respect. If your mom is a drunk and an emotional wreck, like in Dual Family, she doesn't have a right to respect. When your cousin in the same game is using you to clean up after her messes, she loses her right to your respect.
                         <br/>
                         <br/>
                         So, no, overall I don't believe anyone has an inherent claim to any more respect than basic human decency, family, that is to say, close and functioning family, likely will develop a greater level of mutual respect that causes them to be less likely to harm one another, but in a case like Max, no, you've forfeited that respect when you failed to reciprocate it.
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                        Another form of NTR is the Silver/Christine thing. Can someone provide a reasoning for why that evokes NTR feelings?
                        <br/>
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                        The only common thread in NTR scenarios is that there person causing the NTR (the person fucking the girl instead of you) is a bad guy. I think that, above anything else, causes NTR feelings. Why?
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                         Again with Silver/Christine, I don't think it's justified, because if you don't make several decisions that push things in that direction it can't happen. If you don't want her and sliver to get together but then choose not to tell her about him, and then choose to leave her alone with him in a single room because the booking got messed up, then you made a mistake and you have to own up to that. Anything Christine chooses to do from there is not a betrayal, it's just normal.
                         <br/>
                         <br/>
                         As for the "Bad Guy" aspect, that's because they are villains. Plain and simple. It generally happens that the victim of NTR is portrayed as a good person, but that doesn't have to be the case. I could easily make a game about an evil scientist who gets his girl stolen by the Captain America type hero and he would still feel like a bad guy to you, because from your perspective, he is.
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                        slim dickwitz said:
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                        You don't think people can be self confident and feel jealous or betrayed? Seems like a real self confident person would be fine admitting he feels jealous and working through it rather than denouncing it. In this whole thread you seem to be implying that people who like NTR or feel jealously or betrayal when you don't think it's valid are inferior to you. Correct me if I'm wrong
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                         That quote was a little out of the main context, though I do stand by my that when you are free from these emotions, you tend to be happier in life. Understand confidence is only a part of it, the other part is not being so possessive. However, confidence really is a big part of it. Confidence is knowing that no matter what, your partner chose you, add to that a lack of a need for validation of that choice from not being possessive, and you tend to see less jealousy and less betrayal.
                         <br/>
                         <br/>
                         I don't think it makes you inferior, that's a strong statement no matter what, but I do see it as concerning.
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                     Warning, I'm about to say some things that might come off as more insulting. I want to be clear, I am not accusing you of being exactly what I am about to describe, but I'm attempting to show you why I have strong feelings about how unhealthy your reasoning can be.
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                         I see a lot of parallels, especially in the crowd who have a more negative view of NTR, to Incels and stalkers. Both are known for very selfishly attaching greater meaning to otherwise platonic relationships and then later lashing out, sometimes violently, when they feel that those feelings have been betrayed. Incels label most men as "Chads" they imply heavily that they are oppressed by the chads, chads are bullies, they're successful men, they are the ones who "steal" women from them. Incels are notorously bad at accepting that they are responsible for their failings, instead blaming their looks, and labeling all women as superficial sluts. Stalkers are less ideologues and more simply psychologically imbalanced, however, they are a much older phenomena than Incels, and one that has been much more explored and studied. Stalkers are known for lashing out, when the object of their affection is with another man, they might harm him, maybe even going so far as to kill him. They might also end up lashing out against the woman, violently and sexually. And also, stalkers are commonly bad at introspection. They can't fathom what they're doing wrong that might cause a girl to not feel for them the way they feel for her.
                         <br/>
                         <br/>
                         Again, I'm not saying you fall into this category. I'm simply showing you why I feel the emotion you're assigning to things you admit you don't have a romantic claim to can be dangerous and unhealthy, and as a result, should be questioned. If you have it in check, cool, but it might not be the worst idea to talk to someone if these feelings are more common. I should also note, that while seemingly less common, women are just as capable of falling into those traps I laid out above, and therefore any use of the male female dynamic could be flipped in that paragraph and it still make sense.
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                  <div class="message-userContent lbContainer js-lbContainer" data-lb-caption-desc="Kara Zor-El · Aug 22, 2018 at 8:09 PM" data-lb-id="post-1026677">
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                        Tataro said:
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                        NTR tag as a whole should be removed and replaced by several normal English tags:
                        <br/>
                        <br/>
                        Cuckquean = When you're the woman that is getting cucked by her husband and you accept it or suffer trough it or enjoy it. Nothing for this.
                        <br/>
                        <br/>
                        Homewrecking / Homewrecked = When you /another character destroys the established relationship trough your or their actions. My Girlfriends Amnesia could be this if other characters manage to get their way
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                     For to lower tag confusion mods decided put all similar tags under NTR tag. Causing more confusion but it's their decision.
                     <img alt=":eek:" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite675" data-shortname=":eek:" src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" title="Eek!    :eek:"/>
                     penedeyewink:
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     Cuckquean = (Netoraseta) is a woman who enjoys letting another woman (cuckcake) have her way with his
                     <br/>
                     husband/boyfriend.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     Cuckold = (Netorase) is the causative form of
                     <i>
                      netoru
                     </i>
                     . it means to cause, or let, someone
                     <i>
                      netoru
                     </i>
                     someone. Mainly,
                     <i>
                      netorase
                     </i>
                     would be about the cuckold letting (or forcing) someone else to have their way with their partner.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     Homewrecking / Homewrecked = This means NTR (Netorare)
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     In cuckquean and cuckold they are still couple and they are happy about such life like swinger couples.
                     <br/>
                     But in NTR there is an affair(s). Story doesn't start good and ends happy (mostly
                     <img alt=":p" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite673" data-shortname=":p" src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" title="Stick out tongue    :p"/>
                     ). :test3::FuckYea:
                     <img alt=":WutFace:" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite710" data-shortname=":WutFace:" src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" title="Wut Face    :WutFace:"/>
                     <br/>
                     Maybe a new tag to refer NTR such as drama or affair can be nice. :evilsmile:
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                  <div class="message-userContent lbContainer js-lbContainer" data-lb-caption-desc="Tataro · Aug 22, 2018 at 8:13 PM" data-lb-id="post-1026689">
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                       <a class="bbCodeBlock-sourceJump" data-content-selector="#post-1026677" data-xf-click="attribution" href="/goto/post?id=1026677">
                        Kara Zor-El said:
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                        For to lower tag confusion mods decided put all similar tags under NTR tag. Causing more confusion but it's their decision.
                        <img alt=":eek:" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite675" data-shortname=":eek:" src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" title="Eek!    :eek:"/>
                        penedeyewink:
                        <br/>
                        <br/>
                        Cuckquean = (Netoraseta) is a woman who enjoys letting another woman (cuckcake) have her way with his
                        <br/>
                        husband/boyfriend.
                        <br/>
                        <br/>
                        Cuckold = (Netorase) is the causative form of
                        <i>
                         netoru
                        </i>
                        . it means to cause, or let, someone
                        <i>
                         netoru
                        </i>
                        someone. Mainly,
                        <i>
                         netorase
                        </i>
                        would be about the cuckold letting (or forcing) someone else to have their way with their partner.
                        <br/>
                        <br/>
                        Homewrecking / Homewrecked = This means NTR (Netorare)
                        <br/>
                        <br/>
                        In cuckquean and cuckold they are still couple and they are happy about such life like swinger couples.
                        <br/>
                        But in NTR there is an affair(s). Story doesn't start good and ends happy (mostly
                        <img alt=":p" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite673" data-shortname=":p" src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" title="Stick out tongue    :p"/>
                        ). :test3::FuckYea:
                        <img alt=":WutFace:" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite710" data-shortname=":WutFace:" src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" title="Wut Face    :WutFace:"/>
                        <br/>
                        Maybe a new tag to refer NTR such as drama or affair can be nice. :evilsmile:
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                     </blockquote>
                     Cucking can be willing or unwilling but it's cucking all the same and you get cucked. I dislike the use of Japanese terms and coalescing it all into one thing. I like cucking others and don't like it being done to me, and would love to be able to look up games where I can do that instead of suffer it.
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                  is this pedophile day or what ?
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