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              Hits and Misses
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                     In short, I'm looking for games that in terms of both story and gameplay are considered great. I'm also looking for games that should have been great if it weren't for some flaw. You see, I'm writing my own game, however I've probably only played a total of 30 or so. I'd like to have a good measure of what to do, what not to do, and what's been done already. I consider myself moderately talented when it comes to writing, but I also know that talent is mostly just mimicry. Having played games like Wicked Choices by
                     <a class="username" data-user-id="206659" data-username="@ASLPro3D" data-xf-init="member-tooltip" href="https://f95zone.to/members/206659/">
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                     I feel like my story is just a skeleton in dire need of muscle to define it.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     A few examples of games I've already played that I enjoyed:
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     Wicked Choices - I cannot stress enough how well made this project is
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     SisterlyLust - Seemingly in early development still, however I have been invested so far.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     My New Roomate - This game is short, but it makes good use of its playtime and tells an engaging story.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     My Legacy - This was a nice change of pace, played it after DMD left me disappointed. I enjoyed the schizo main character.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     Daughter for Desert - I'm not even that into daddy\daughter stuff, It may turn out to just be the art that I like, but I'm enjoying it so far
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     Two Sides - still sooo early in development, and apparently having trouble keeping up, but what I've played puts it just below Wicked Choices for me, in terms of what my favorite project I've played is.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     Intimate Relations - The story is short and unfinished, but there were a number of mechanical elements that I really liked about this, and it helped that each character had an active role.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     Now, for a few games I've played that were fun, but had glaring problems.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     Big Brother - setting aside the Eric issue, the banal sim elements of making money from cams and of having to achieve the right amount of triggers of the same scenes to progress just ruin it. I'm pretty sure I just gave up on this one.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     Man of the House - Worse than Big Brother in terms of repetition and banality. If it weren't for the cheat engine I probably wouldn't have played it at all.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     Dating My Daughter - So much potential, but the slow progress and the not quite fully realized potential of its own mechanics left me thinking it could be so much more than it is. Also, the female characters are all pretty poorly written.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     Dreams of Desire - honestly, I considered putting this on the other list, but I can't quite do it. I don't know entirely what it is that's stopping me, but I do know that there's something.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     The Gift (reloaded) - This was also almost on the list above, but when I think of it, there are a lot of small flaws, limitations maybe? I feel like this game has more potential than it realizes.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     I guess I'll leave it there. I'm not gonna list every little thing I've played. These are the ones that stick out to me though.
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                     So, aside from these, does anyone have suggestions? Something to get invested in, something they really enjoyed mechanically, or something that they feel fell just short of glory.
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                     My own game will be incest related, but I'm pretty aware of the tropes I need to avoid or subvert in that. So I'll take anything. I also plan on both a male and a female protagonist, so if there are any games that have a great perspective on writing from the female perspective that would be great, especially if the game is written by a woman. My best experience as a woman is probably Intimate Relations choices. Wicked Choices of course has a female perspective, but the story is still too young to show me its potential.
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                     Don't let my writing intimidate you... remember, as a writer, we aren't so much creating the universe we see in our heads, as much as just reporting what we see so that others can as well.
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                     Let the characters be who they want to be, let them interact within the scene and run with it... when they can be themselves (and not you being them) that is what makes them believable and memorable to others.
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                     Thank you for such the high praises and look forward to seeing your own when you are ready to show it off to the word... just take your time and don't rush and make sure you are a few releases ahead before you turn it loose on the public and be sure to manage your time and abilities or that lead time will quickly vanish.
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                     I think you have to approach game development more like writing a play/movie vs a novel (ie, more dialogue and less exposition).  I agree with ASLPro3d, the characters and scenes can convey a lot; personally, I think that's what's missing in a lot of the adult games coming out.
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                  <div class="message-userContent lbContainer js-lbContainer" data-lb-caption-desc="a meme · Jan 10, 2018 at 5:37 AM" data-lb-id="post-416694">
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                        darthseduction said:
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                        Ah look a constructive response... not. Seriously grow up.
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                     What? You're making a porn game. Don't write in broken English, don't add retarded grinding and add actual content. That's all there is to it.
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                        jerricho13 said:
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                        I think you have to approach game development more like writing a play/movie vs a novel (ie, more dialogue and less exposition).  I agree with ASLPro3d, the characters and scenes can convey a lot; personally, I think that's what's missing in a lot of the adult games coming out.
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                     I absolutely agree with
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                     ... doing a game is a bit different than doing a novel, it is more like doing a comic book (I've done both), let the art and camera angles set the place and mood, touch on objects briefly if characters in the story interact with them... focus on touch, sound, scent, smell and just a little on sight from the character's perspective... this fulfills added description of things that you want to draw the player's attention to, and also adds more depth to the story with the other 4 senses... allegories and metaphors will help the player to draw a line of understanding with a character as well... for example:
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     "The old mine was dark and damp, making my clothes feel heavy on my body and the smell... the smell was like molding fruit left in the refrigerator for too long... a moldy smell that caused my nose to wrinkle in disgust. The only sounds that I could hear was the constant drip of water off to the left of me, resounding in the darkness like a steady drip of water from a faucet in an empty steel pan..."
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     You don't need to worry about sight, because with the renders or drawings, the players can already see that... but say there is something in the render you want them to focus on, touch on it briefly... like: "My eyes immediately was drawn to the old mine car that sat rusting in the dim light that my torch gave off... tiny bugs skittering to escape the glow on the rusty metal."
                     <br/>
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                     Do that and the players are instantly in the scene with the character... and adds FAR MORE depth than other games.
                     <img alt=";)" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite668" data-shortname=";)" src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" title="Wink    ;)"/>
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                     Hope that helps!
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                        I absolutely agree with
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                        ... doing a game is a bit different than doing a novel, it is more like doing a comic book (I've done both), let the art and camera angles set the place and mood, touch on objects briefly if characters in the story interact with them... focus on touch, sound, scent, smell and just a little on sight from the character's perspective... this fulfills added description of things that you want to draw the player's attention to, and also adds more depth to the story with the other 4 senses... allegories and metaphors will help the player to draw a line of understanding with a character as well... for example:
                        <br/>
                        <br/>
                        "The old mine was dark and damp, making my clothes feel heavy on my body and the smell... the smell was like molding fruit left in the refrigerator for too long... a moldy smell that caused my nose to wrinkle in disgust. The only sounds that I could hear was the constant drip of water off to the left of me, resounding in the darkness like a steady drip of water from a faucet in an empty steel pan..."
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                        You don't need to worry about sight, because with the renders or drawings, the players can already see that... but say there is something in the render you want them to focus on, touch on it briefly... like: "My eyes immediately was drawn to the old mine car that sat rusting in the dim light that my torch gave off... tiny bugs skittering to escape the glow on the rusty metal."
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                        Do that and the players are instantly in the scene with the character... and adds FAR MORE depth than other games.
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                        Hope that helps!
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                     It absolutely helps, thank you. And you're right, I won't let your writing intimidate, me, it simply inspires me to do better. Thanks for your insight, seriously.
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                        darthseduction said:
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                        It absolutely helps, thank you. And you're right, I won't let your writing intimidate, me, it simply inspires me to do better. Thanks for your insight, seriously.
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                     Happy to help if I can, always!
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                     Personally, I'd like to see the adult indie game business get to a much higher level than just rehashed stories with simple dialogue.
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                     Start with some simple yet complex questioning before diving into the abyss.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     1. How much time is your team willing to invest
                     <br/>
                     2. How complex do you want the game to be? What I mean is, animation, inventory system, stat system, combat, interactive 3D/2D models or is it just render images?
                     <br/>
                     3. Is your team willing to learn to acquire a set of skills to achieve the end goal?
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     Because I'm unsure of what engine you plan to use, below are my opinions on the more sought out engines being used.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     Ren'py it's limited in what it can do. What do I mean by this, well let's take a look at all the VN's developed on Ren'py. Most of them have the following mechanic, Show some text, follow by an image, click some space on the scene, move to next event. Very simple but not very interactive.
                     <br/>
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                     RPGM - Simple with moderate complexity. Of course VN's can still be built on this, but you can do much more here than you can with Ren'py. The same concept from Ren'py can be replicated here, and is entirely up to how the dev presents its. You can still have a wall text with images, but now you have an avatar, moving in a 2D plane interacting with the environment.
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                     Unity/UE4 - Not for the average dev. These engine are design to do all of the above, with a high level of complexity. The only limitation is the current state of the engine and the imagination and skill set of the dev.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     Just note that, my idea of a video game isn't just a wall of text with images added to them. It's a built fictitious world that I can interact with and immerse myself into. Other mechanics that make it feel rewarding, exciting, and full of surprises. Branching paths that has that subtle chance to make you fail and those moments when the player goes "damn I fucked up, gotta reload that last save" Reason why I don't play VN's are they aren't interactive, spamming the left click or space button to go through a text box is not that exciting. I can pretty much do the same thing with a book. What I'm saying is, if you're planing on making a VN, make the story compelling, just like any book/story add mystery, well how can you do that with a tag "incest", there's limitless of ways to do it. One that I can think of at the top of my head when writing this is,
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     MC(Female) visit her brother after so many years. The event to trigger the visit can range from anything, let's just say her brother is in need of dire help and went through hell to look for her. He explains to her his situation, she hesitates to, but eventually ends up going/helping. This can then turn into some form of bonding, between the two, where she eventually starts developing those feelings, and slowly expresses it to him, (this is where you can throw in twist) the brother denies those feelings, refuses to be intimate with her the list can go on and on. At this point I'm sure you all can use your imagination here, how she gets there and how it ends is entirely up to the one making it.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     Again this is just on the spot idea, and I'm sure this simple idea can turn into something more interesting. Build your characters, set the correct tone, especially if you're doing VN. Make something that logically makes sense, have tug of war between the MC and characters surrounding them, make your readers angry, throw your readers off, cut the climax mid way. Then guess what, you'll have your readers/players wrapped up in no time. Mixing all these emotions I believe would create an interesting VN. Again I'm no expert at writing, nor storytelling.
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                     For good stories I suggest you try Tlaero's games, the most recent being Saving Chloe. The overall arc of her last 4 games are an excellent example of a story with the plot completely laid out before before the first game was completed. Gameplay wise, SC was also a huge advancement where Tlaero moved from a points based right or wrong system to a "No wrong answers" approach with multiple endings.
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                     I also just tried My Sweet Neighbors a couple of days ago and I was surprised to find an excellently scripted story that is both believable and sweet. The journey of the young daughter and older neighbor fighting to fight their growing attraction to each other is vert well done.
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                     First things first, you need to decide why you are making a game. If you are doing so in order to satisfy yourself and exercise creative muscle, well, starting out with a story's framework only probably isn't going to work out for you. And if you are doing this to make money, you need to seriously take a look at the VNs you like and the ones you do not and realize the things you enjoy do not appeal to a large audience, generally speaking.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     If you are looking for are really good look at the nuts and bolts of storytelling in a VN, Flamecito's
                     <i>
                      I Love Daddy
                     </i>
                     is primitive visually but when you play through all the divergent paths with the spreadsheet walkthrough, it can give an aspiring game developer a nice blueprint for plotting a story with branching paths, while the color coded, visual aspect of the spreadsheet can show where a story is too concentrated and where other paths need to be fattened up. By no means am I saying this is the world's best adult VN - it is not. But his branching story and that walkthrough are a handy primer for the first time writer/dev.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     If you want to just play a game that is done exceptionally well that isn't done by slow boat Palmer, play
                     <i>
                      Depraved Awakening
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                     by Philly Games.
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                     Good luck going forward.
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                     I will say that when I started with my game I had an overall outline laid out. The main points of the game and the major branches that would lead to them, or were they would merge. By no means did I have the entire script laid out. It just was not feasible but I do have an overall flowchart of the major events.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     For each version I get down to the nitty gritty on the script. For instance the door scene with the passwords in 0.4 I didn't come up with till much later. I was going to have the MC just approach the door with another customer at the same time and they would say the password, kinda boring. But I liked the idea of the homeless guy that hears things and rambles them off from 0.2 so I had him give the clue to the password.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     The only substantial change I have done mid way through was having Christina not be a villan. There are already a number of antagonists: Patrick, Kira, Hollis, The Mystery Man who will have a reveal shortly, and one other as of yet unseen. I didn't need another one. I wanted another character for the players to like. She fills that role.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     As for writing the characters I have notes for each, their likes and dislikes, personal goals, and a tiny bit of history. So when writing I try to include that in what they say. This I hope adds a touch of realism. Even though its a totally fake world of crazy horny women and insane situations, that touch of realism helps sell it. I am by no means a great writer but I think doing that adds just enough.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     Also try not to change your story based on what your players say. That can totally screw up everything then suddenly your well crafted characters act totally out of character. Advice is great, and use it. I sure as hell have, but I have not changed the story.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     So tldr;
                     <br/>
                     1. Make an overall outline of all major events before starting. Or at least have a good idea whats going down throughout.
                     <br/>
                     2. Flesh out each version. Each version may only have 1 or 2 of those major events.
                     <br/>
                     3. Add some backstory for the characters. Give them some personality that isn't cookie cutter. But don't be afraid to use some tropes, they are familiar then you can twist them on their head for a nice surprise.
                     <br/>
                     4. You can change the main outline but just be very careful about it.
                     <br/>
                     5. Try not to give into player request for story changes. Other things are fine.
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                     Most adult games suffer from the adult part having to be ham-fisted into the story, thus weakening the story tremendously.
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                     Kind of hard to get invested in characters when their entire life literally only revolves around sex. And if you're not invested in the characters, you won't care about their story. Ironically, the sexual part of most adult games would largely benefit if the writers wrote in parts that weren't sex related so that way the actual sex was appreciated more.
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                     I completely agree ! And this is one of the main struggle I have when writing my story.
                     <br/>
                     On one hand the need for sexy / explicit scenes (well, I do an adult game after all ^^) vs my goal to create a bond between the characters and the player.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     I know that, as a player, I enjoy feeling implicated in what happens, the mood, the struggle even but at the same time I don't like when all the sex stuff is put at the end, sometimes making me wonder if they intended their game to be 18+ or if it was just an afterthought ('Yeah, we'll publish two version and cover the market that way'), I see this happening in some Japanese VN.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     Balancing is hard, maybe in amateur games we face more of the former, but I have the feeling that things are getting better, there are a lot of games that came out in 2017 that show an improvement, and sometimes I think I'm a little part of that
                     <img alt=":D" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite674" data-shortname=":D" src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" title="Big grin    :D"/>
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                        I completely agree ! And this is one of the main struggle I have when writing my story.
                        <br/>
                        On one hand the need for sexy / explicit scenes (well, I do an adult game after all ^^) vs my goal to create a bond between the characters and the player.
                        <br/>
                        <br/>
                        I know that, as a player, I enjoy feeling implicated in what happens, the mood, the struggle even but at the same time I don't like when all the sex stuff is put at the end, sometimes making me wonder if they intended their game to be 18+ or if it was just an afterthought ('Yeah, we'll publish two version and cover the market that way'), I see this happening in some Japanese VN.
                        <br/>
                        <br/>
                        Balancing is hard, maybe in amateur games we face more of the former, but I have the feeling that things are getting better, there are a lot of games that came out in 2017 that show an improvement, and sometimes I think I'm a little part of that
                        <img alt=":D" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite674" data-shortname=":D" src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" title="Big grin    :D"/>
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                     I opted to start the story with something emotionally damaging to my characters. As a result, hopefully, I can leverage that trauma to create investment and show growth. Since it's shared trauma it also serves as the inciting incident that makes the plot more believable. This isn't the only way to do this of course, but I think it serves pretty well.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     Similarly, the implied trauma behind the characters in a story like Blooming Love keeps you interested in finding out just what happened to make the characters each run from home.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     Of course, Wicked Desires also has an interesting method of engaging you, starting you with a basic incest plot that turns into a fantasy thriller. Not only are you filmed for blackmail from your sister in law, but you're psychically linked with an elf girl.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     Yes, sex can't be the crux of the story. You need a plot that makes the sex believable. And then you need to be able to write those scenes so they don't feel superficial.
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