Unnamed: 0
int64 0
11.3k
| label
stringclasses 20
values | content
stringlengths 6
66.5k
|
|---|---|---|
11,000 | talk.religion.misc | re after years can we say that christian morality is in article apr scic intel com sbradley scic intel com seth j bradley writes ifone simply says god did it then that is not falsifiable unless god admits that he didn t do it i d cheat on hillary too john laws local gop reprehensitive extolling traditional family values
|
11,001 | talk.religion.misc | re lds rick s reply robert weiss psyrobtw ubvmsb cc buffalo edu writes rick anderson replied to my letter with ra in article c elp l c acsu buffalo edu ra psyrobtw ubvmsb cc buffalo edu robert weiss says ra just briefly on something that you mentioned in passing you refer to differing interpretations of create and say that many christians may not agree so what that is really irrelevant we do not base our faith on how many people think one way or another do we the bottom line is truth regardless of popularity of opinions it may be irrelevant to you and your personal beliefs or should i say bias but it is relevant to me and many others you re right the bottom line is truth independant from you or anyone else since you proclaim truths as a self proclaimed appointee may i ask you by what authority you do this because it says so in the bible does the bible say so or is it you or someone else who interprets whether a scripture or doctrine conforms to your particular liking or disapproval excuse moi but your line of truths haven t moved me one bit to persuade me that my beliefs are erroneous of all the preachers of truth on this net you have struck me as a self righteous member of the wrecking crew with no positive message to me or any other latter day saint btw this entire discussion reminds me a lot of the things said by jesus to the pharisees ye hypocrite s ye preach about me with your lips but your hearts are far removed from me also i find it rather strange that in trying to persuade that created and eternally existent are equivalent you say granted the mormon belief you can t grant your conclusion and then expect the point to have been addressed in order to reply to the issue you have to address and answer the point that was raised and not just jump to the conclusion that you grant sophistry look who s talking jumping to conclusions you wouldn t do that yourself right all you address is your own convictions regardless whether we come up with any biblical scriptures which supports our points of view because you reject such interpretations without any consideration whatsoever the bible states that lucifer was created the bible states that jesus is the creator of all the contradiction that we have is that the lds belief is that jesus and lucifer were the same a beautiful example of disinformation and a deliberate misrepresentation of lds doctrine the former kgb would have loved to employ you jesus and lucifer are not the same silly and you know it the mormon belief is that all are children of god literally there is nothing symbolic about it this however contradicts what the bible says the bible teaches that not everyone is a child of god correction it may contradict would you think the bible says the bible indeed does teach that not all are children of god in the sense that they belong to or follow god in his footsteps satan and his followers have rebelled against god and are not children followers redeemed of god but it doesn t mean that they were not once created by god but chose to separate themselves from those who chose to follow god and his plan of salvation the field is the world the good seed are the children of the kingdom but the tares are the children of the wicked one matthew so this illustrates nicely what i just said the children of the kingdom are those who have remained valiant in their testimony of jesus and have shown works of repentance etc and the children of the wicked one are those who rebelled against god and the lamb the issue of satan s spirit origin and of those who followed him has not been addressed in this and other verses you copied from your bible you purposefully obscured the subject by swamping your right with non related scriptures lots of nice scriptures deleted not robert w copyrighted though ra we are told that and this is life eternal that they might know ra thee the only true god and jesus christ whom thou hast sent ra john life eternal is to know the only true god yet the ra doctrines of the lds that i have mentioned portray a vastly ra different jesus a jesus that cannot be reconciled with the jesus of ra the bible they are so far removed from each other that to proclaim correction my jesus is indeed different than your jesus and can be reconciled with the jesus in the bible not your interpretation of him i concur but i honestly couldn t care less ra one as being true denies the other from being true according to the ra bible eternal life is dependent on knowing the only true god and ra not the construct of imagination in this single posting of yours i ve seen more constructs of imagination than in all of the pro lds mails combined i have read so far in this news group first get your lds facts straight before you dare preaching to us about the only true god whom you interpret according to your own likes and dislikes but whose image i cannot reconcile with what i know about him myself i guess your grandiose self image does not allow for other faiths believing in the divinity of jesus christ but in a different way or fashion than your own not that it really matters the mission and progress of the lds church will go on boldly and nobly and no mob or opponent can stop the work from progressing until it has visited every continent swept every clime and sounded in every ear this is really a red herring it doesn t address any issue raised but rather it seeks to obfuscate the fact that some groups try to read something into the bible doesn t change what the bible teaches sigh what the bible teaches or what the bible teaches according to robert weiss and co i respect the former i reject the latter without the remotest feeling that i have rejected jesus on the contrary and by the way i do respect your interpretations of the bible i even grant you being a christian following your own image of him as much as i am a christian following my own image of him in my heart most of the other replies have instead hop scotched to the issue of bruce mcconkie and whether his views were official doctrine i don t think that it matters if mcconkie s views were canon that is not the issue were mcconkie s writings indicative of mormon belief on this subject is the real issue the indication from rick is that they may certainly be the issue is of course that you love to use anything to either mis represent or ridicule the lds church the issue of official doctrine is obviously very important mcconkie s views have been controversial e g the seven deadly heresies has made me a heretic at best or erroneous at worst blacks not to receive the priesthood in this dispensation i respect him as someone who has made his valuable contribution to the church but i personally do not rely on his personal interpretations his book mormon doctrine is oftentimes referred to as mcconkie s bible in mormon circles on mormon doctrine i rather look to official doctrinal sources and to hugh nibley s books the last comment is an lds insider reference summarizing mcconkie was a wise man who contributed undoubtedly far more to the kingdom of god than i have but whose views are by no means dogma or accepted doctrine some of it clearly belongs to personal interpretation and speculation but having said this i find mcconkie even in his most biased and speculative moments far more thought provoking than the trash coming from your proverbial pen i m somewhat appalled that i have allowed myself to sink as low as you in this posting robert weiss psyrobtw ubvms cc buffalo edu casper c knies isscck byuvm bitnet brigham young university isscck vm byu edu ucs computer facilities
|
11,002 | talk.religion.misc | re a kind and loving god not in article sandvik sandvik kent apple com sandvik newton apple com kent sandvik writes in article apr ra royalroads ca mlee post royalroads ca malcolm lee wrote this brings up another question i still have to ponder why is there so much anti semitism why do people hate jews i don t hate jews i consider them to be like anyone else sinners we all are i don t know i don t care about ethnical rights and wrongs myself but it s evident that christians consider jews no longer to be the sole selected group of god s people while jews consider this to be the case christian anti semitism comes from the obvious fact that the jews should know the hebrew scriptures better than anyone else yet they did not convert to christianity en mass thus rejecting christian love no wonder this caused anti semitism one might even wonder that if christianity didn t do this separation would anti semitism have even started i don t see why not where are the rest of the tribal people what happened to the tribes of the americas culture is seen as different and undesirable in the west particular in the us with its failed melting pot concept most tribes have been hunted to extinction the hebrew tribe is one of the few survivers from the neolithic of course it becomes difficult at times to separate christianity from the western experience so perhaps you are right perhaps it would have been a better world if the cultural experiment in christianity never happened
|
11,003 | talk.religion.misc | re flaming nazis in article apr news cs brandeis edu deane binah cc brandeis edu writes okay i ll bite i should probably leave this alone but what the heck in article apr sun urz uni heidelberg de gsmith lauren iwr uni heidelberg de gene w smith writes in article tt r b w w brewich hou tx us popec brewich hou tx us pope charles writes rhoemer was the name of the guy responsible for much of the uniforms and props used by the early nazis in their rallies and such the name is roehm not rhoemer and hitler does claim that he came up with the swastika business but didn t he credit the actual flag design to a party member some dentist or other i believe he gives such credit in mein kampf he was killed in an early nazi purge he and many of his associates were flaming homosexuals well know also for their flamboyant orgies i have been trying to find if there is any actual evidence for this common assertion recently postings to such groups as soc history and soc culture german has not uncovered any net experts who could provide any well i m no expert but all of the histories of nazi germany assert this they make reference to several scandals that occurred long before the night of the long knives the impression that i got was that homosexuality in portions of the sa was common knowledge also a book by a homosexual author whose name escapes me at the moment called homosexuals in history asserts that roehm and heines were homosexuals as well as others in roehm s sa circle rest deleted can anybody out in a p h help out find out about the night of the brown shirts kcochran nyx cs du edu b c d e f g k m r s t tsakc my thoughts my posts my ideas my responsibility my beer my pizza ok
|
11,004 | talk.religion.misc | christians above the law was clarification of personal position in article c muiw aqc mailer cc fsu edu dlecoint garnet acns fsu edu darius lecointe writes other good stuff deleted you can worship every day of the week the issue is not whether christians are at fault for going to church on sunday or for not going to church on saturday attending a church service does not mean you have recognized the holiness of that day my apologies to paul hudson the question is on what authority do we proclaim that the requirements of the fourth commandment are no longer relevant to modern christians please note that the commandment does not command you to go to church only to keep it holy unto the lord by refraining from doing on it what only serves to give you pleasure and satisfaction when are we going to hear a christian answer to this question in paraphrase on what or whose authority do christians proclaim that they are above the law and above the prophets major and minor and not accountable to the ten commandments of which jesus clearly spoke his opinion in matthew what is the source of this pseudo doctrine who is the pseudo teacher who is the great deceiver
|
11,005 | talk.religion.misc | re the real probability of abiogenesis was re albert sabin in qc tiinnhie ctron news ctron com king ctron com john e king writes adpeters sunflower bio indiana edu andy peters writes we re not just talking about proteins in fact we shouldn t be talking about proteins at all since if i have to say this again i m goint to be really upset nobody claims that proteins appeared de novo the proteins did not form randomly before i repond to andy please clarify you state that proteins did not form randomly that seems to be my point well i am not andy but if you had familiarized yourself with some of the current theories hypotheses about abiogenesis before posting you would be aware of the fact that none of them claims that proteins were assembled randomly from amino acids it is current thinking that rna based replicators came before proteinaceous enzymes and that proteins were assembled by some kind of primitive translation machinery now respond to cornelius cornelius krasel department of physiological chemistry u tuebingen email krasel studserv zdv uni tuebingen de people are dna s way of making more dna r dawkins anonymous
|
11,006 | talk.religion.misc | re an invisible god in article apr maths tcd ie pmoloney maths tcd ie paul moloney writes jmeritt mental mitre org jim meritt system admin writes god can be seen and i will take away my hand and thou shalt see my backparts wot god s a mooner such lunacy gee maybe there s something in this christianity thing after all maybe god is john belushi from animal house the supernatural one wants to have a personal relationship with you jhvh come quick
|
11,007 | talk.religion.misc | ignorance is bliss was is it good that jesus died in article sandvik sandvik kent apple com sandvik newton apple com kent sandvik writes ignorance is not bliss ignorance is strength help spread the truth of ignorance
|
11,008 | talk.religion.misc | christians above the law was clarification of personal position in article sandvik sandvik kent apple com sandvik newton apple com kent sandvik writes my online bible is on a cd but i don t own a cd rom system for the time being so i can t search for the famous cite where jesus explicitly states that he didn t want to break existing jewish laws in other words technically speaking christians should use saturday and not sunday as their holy day if they want to conform to the teachings of jesus who said christians want to conform to the teachings of jesus you are the light of the world a city can t be hidden lying on a mountaintop nor do people light a candle and cover it with a big basket they put it up on a tall candlestick where it can shine for everyone in the house that s how your light must shine in front of the world so that people see your good deeds and give credit to your father in the skies don t think i came to dissolve the law torah aka first five books or the prophets major plus minor i didn t come to dissolve them i came to fulfill them i assure you till the sky and the earth go away not one letter or punctuation mark of the law will ever go away until everthing has come to pass so anyone who dissolves even one of the smallest commandments and teaches others the same way will be known as the lowest in the kingdom of the skies whereas anyone who keeps the commands and teaches them too will be known as someone great in the kingdom of the skies matt gaus isbn
|
11,009 | talk.religion.misc | the bad press islam has recieved i recently read an article in a local paper written by an islamic person who was upset with the way islam has been portrayed by western media when a terrorist action takes place in the middle east it is always played up as an islamic terrorist however when the a serbian terrorist attacks the croations its not a christian terrorist its just a terrorist i have often tried to explain this to some close friends who believe the press that islam is somehow tied to violence often times you hear things like they just don t value human life like we do and so on i was wondering if anyone out there had any suggestions for how we can change this image or how i can help my friends to see that this is just hype i would appreciate any serious suggestions or comments via e mail and i m not interested in hearing about how right the press is scott vann buddha iastate edu
|
11,010 | talk.religion.misc | re spreading christianity re christian extremist kills doctor nyikos math scarolina edu peter nyikos writes i addressed most of the key issues in this very long lines post by dean kaflowitz in two posts yesterday the first was made into the title post of a new thread is dean kaflowitz terminally irony impaired and the second more serious one appeared along the thread a chaney post and a challenge reissued and revised if you re so insecure about people reading your posts that you feel the need to write new posts announcing what you wrote in old posts why bother accept it phoney you re a laughingstock
|
11,011 | talk.religion.misc | re rosicrucian order s in article qppef i b usenet ins cwru edu ch cleveland freenet edu tony alicea writes name just three really competing rosicrucian orders i have probably spent more time than you doing the same none of them are spin offs from o t o the opposite may be the case can we assume from this statement that you are unequivocally saying that amorc is not a spin off of oto and that in fact oto may well be a spin off of amorc i would be quite interested in hearing what evidence you have to support this claim study harder study smarter not harder more more of everything more of everything for everybody real total war has become information war it is being fought now max delysid alamut netcom com alamutbbs
|
11,012 | talk.religion.misc | re swastika was hitler pagan or christian the observation that the tree of life would rotate clockwise in the northern hemisphere and counterclockwise in the southern probably doesn t give enough consideration to the feebleness of the coriolis force compared to say the phototropism of vegetation a much more likely explanation is the classic one that the clockwise swastika is the sun wheel because the sun progresses across the sky that way although that s not the historical way it happened clocks were first made as little imitation images of the sun moving thru the heavens so it s more valid to talk of the clock going sunwise but do the engineers listen to me of course not anyway there is still much uncertainty about whether the anti swastika goes counter sunwise because that represents evil or because it is the sun s twin opposite the moonwheel the use of anti sun to represent evil may be because humans are so strongly visually oriented but i m not going to try to settle that one just now diccon frankborn dickeney access digex com
|
11,013 | talk.religion.misc | re swastika was hitler pagan or christian re red wwhite and black the colors of the imperial german war flag go further back still there are xviii prussian drinking songs celebrating the red the white and the black the colors as fletcher pratt points out of blood and iron diccon frankborn
|
11,014 | talk.religion.misc | re flaming nazis the trouble with trying to find out the truth is that roehm and his buddies were accused of being flaming faggots one of the pretexts for the night of long knives in which roehm and most of the sa wing of the nsdap were purged since the accusers thereafter controlled the records anything bearing on the subject true or not has to be considered tainted evidence the available data suggest that roehm and his crowd the sa sturmabteilung storm troopers left the world a better place when they departed but concrete particulars are still no more than more or less shrewd guesses diccon frankborn
|
11,015 | talk.religion.misc | re oto the ancient order of oriental templars do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law honestly the word of sin is restriction would i kid you does one man s words encompass the majestic vision of thousands of individuals quoting a man is not the same as quoting the order taken out of context words can be interpreted much differently than had one applied them within the confines of their original expression i think this is the case regarding hymenaeus beta frater superior of the order to which i belong when he included that bit from merlinus x he did us all a service he showed us the extremes to which order members have been known to go in their fervor i have little knowledge regarding reuss background but surely he was an unusual man and he was an important force in the order for many years yet as people change so do orders change and while we look back so carefully at the dirty laundry of o t o remember that this is only the surface skim and that many perspectives are now encompassed which extend beyond any one individual i hope to show that there was and is much room for a difference of opinion within the order itself perhaps by testing the limits myself let us examine this issue a bit more closely in karl kellner a wealthy austrian industrialist and paper chemist as well as a high grade mason founded the ordo templi orientis kellner had traveled widely in the east where he met three adepts who instructed him specific magical practices kellner s efforts to develop the order were later assisted by franz hartmann heinrich klein and theodore reuss who had worked together prior to joining the o t o the order was first proclaimed in in reuss s masonic publication oriflamme on kellner s death reuss succeeded him as outer head o h o the jubilee edition of the oriflamme published in announced that the order taught secret of sexual magic theodore reuss was an interesting character born june in augsburg he entered masonry in he was a singer journalist and possibly a spy for the prussian political police infiltrating the socialist league founded by karl marx s daughter and her husband reuss was later associated with william wynn westcott a leader of the golden dawn who later introduced him to john yarker yarker chartered reuss to found the rites of memphis and mizraim in germany after several attempts to concretize various masonic rites reuss settled on the development of the o t o the order experienced reasonably steady growth under reuss leadership for example he chartered papus in france rudolph steiner in berlin and h spencer lewis in the usa in the historic meeting between reuss and crowley occurred crowley wrote that reuss came to him and accused him of revealing order secrets when crowley looked at it afresh the initiated interpretation of sexual magick unfolded itself to him for the first time reuss appointed crowley as supreme and holy king of all the english speaking world and it was this authorization that he invoked when publishing the material of the equinox reuss resigned as outer head of the order in after suffering a stroke and named crowley his successor all was well until when the book of the law was translated into german there was a break in the continuity of the order manyk members split with the new o h o over the book which crowley was actively promulgating through the order he had earlier revise dthe order rituals at reuss s request deeply infusing the doctrines of the new aeon revelation an introduction to the history of the o t o by ad veritatem ix within equinox iii edited by hymenaeus beta frater superior rex summus sanctissimus caliph of the united states of america published by samuel weiser there are many possible reasons that our frater superior included this material in equinox iii and this is the real point is it not why did he wish to publish such things about the history of his own organization does he represent a dogmatic threat to the principle of thelema or is he exercising his true will and putting forth very complex pictures with no easy answers a picture which leaves room for very many interpretations it is quite easy for me to see for example that all of o t o derived out of the dribble of faltering masonry purchased by clever hucksters with an ounce of courage and some writing ability to aid them and i can take that all the way down to our present caliph whose feeble support of the law of thelema is laughable at best would i be thrown out of the order for speaking in this way will i i think not why because my frater will see it as a perspective an interjection i am using as an example my illustration shows that we may express things in the context of a larger work and the true significance of this may be quite difficult to apprehend at first so it may be with oto and merlinus x please look o t o more carefully i do not support reuss s words myself as i am not qualified to assess them and i am critical of their pomposity if i who am a member of the order take such a stand and am allowed to continue doing so then what can this say about the health of the order does it mean that the order has gone soft and abandoned its moral principles or does it mean that it is strong in its ability to let the will of universal kinship arise on its own not shackled by some dogmatic requirement how shall we resolve these two possibilities i find a high calibre of individual associated with ordo templi orientis they are often quite intelligent and sometimes very well versed in arcane or usual information they are quite often artists and geniuses having met some longstanding members in the sf bay area many who are or were very heavily involved with the order i can vouch for the integrity of the organization as it stands i have sometimes questioned the policy of hymenaeus beta in these moments i followed my intuition and i ve found little to stop me from requesting a second initiation from a different o t o body i m happily participating in social groups feasts or initiations and have come to know the gnostic mass well enough for my tastes this doesn t make me an authority on order politics and explanations however i can only hypothesize and relay to you what i understand based on my limited contact with other members i urge you not to take the words of merlinus x too far there are many ways to interpret words and many people who have become involved with the order feel very strongly about the sanctity of personal freedom and the preservation of individual vision i welcome other comment on this issue and will be writing more in response to other posts in this thread invoke me under my stars love is the law love under will i am i frater i nigris dclxvi cccxxxiii
|
11,016 | talk.religion.misc | re albert sabin in article apr rambo atlanta dg com wpr atlanta dg com bill rawlins writes in article c ftjt sunfish usd edu rfox charlie usd edu rich fox univ of south dakota writes in article apr rambo atlanta dg com wpr atlanta dg com bill rawlins writes earlier dialogue deleted perhaps you should read it and stop advancing the bible as evidence relating to questions of science it did jesus exist by g a wells there is a great fallacy in your statement the question of origins is based on more than science alone nope no fallacy yep science is best in determining how religions handle why and who the problem is that most scientists exclude the possibility of the supernatural in the question of origins is this is a fair premise not entirely its not a premise its a conclusion second that scientists for the most part exlude the possibility is not a problem its a necessity scientists are empircists not theologians i utterly reject the hypothesis that science is the highest form of truth so do scientists and long before you did clearly you have a deep and fundamental misunderstanding of science if you met a man who could walk on water raise people from the dead claimed to be the son of god and then referred to the inviolability of the scriptures this would affect your belief in the origin of man i can expand on this nope wouldn t affect my knowledge not belief of origins of anatomically modern humans if that man could show me something better i d change even if it was the biblical story in exact detail but then i would ask why in the world did your father endow us with intellect and reason and then proceed to fool us i mean the bible says nothing about the human like creatures that we know exist some of these so called human like creatures were apes some were humans some were fancifully reconstructed from fragments absolutely and utterly false except for some were amhs lucy australopithecus afarensis ca to mya is complete and about taking into consideration bilateral symmetry lucy walked upright and bipedally just like humans and the two share a remarkably similar dental pattern her cranial morphology is unlike humans or modern apes there are hundreds of other specimens of this and other species of which only some are partially reconstructed they exist bill you can touch them feel them hold them but forget hominids the earth the universe the cultural record all look and test out as ancient indeed they are not reconstructions has god has tricked us here too it won t go away bill i doubt any of us will meet a man like this but bill if your version of all this is absolutely correct i m still no worried about my salvation i ll probaby make it i don t steal murder covet etc and i like to help other people all i did was use the reason and intellect your god provided he or she benevolent and loving will understand my dilemma don t you think good deeds do not justify a person in god s sight an atonement jesus is needed to atone for sin so you and other fundamentalists say what about the billions who don t say so beware of people who say they have the truth bill and reconsider each time you think you do science and the bible are not in contradiction god can supercede the scientific laws as man understands them creation is a good example god has the power to create something out of nothing order out of chaos haven t been on t o long but i have a feeling bill that the veterans will agree with you here no contradiciton and god can do anything at will so what s the beef or more properly where s my point god is the creator look s like we agree that was not your point bill your point above was god has the power scientists generally agree with that that s a far cry from saying god did please attempt to understand your own posts if the title of the book you mentioned has anything to do with the substance of the book it must be a real laugher of course jesus existed and there are volumes of evidence to back it up i can give many if you are interested its not a laugher bill its a scholarly book that many happen to disagree with i am definitely and seriously interested in confirmation i know of the bible inferences therefrom e g prophecies apocrypha the koran and others what i am interested is independent evidence do you have any i know of josephus but this is almost certainly an insertion also i know of a few roman documents e g pliny but these deal only with early christians do you have any independent evidence i am most interested please email or post thanks and best regards i ll send you some info via e mail regards bill i have your info and i have replied several days ago hope you have it somehow your post above appeared at my server only today rich fox anthro usouthdakota
|
11,017 | talk.religion.misc | re a kind and loving god in article sandvik sandvik kent apple com sandvik newton apple com kent sandvik writes stephen wrote sandvik newton apple com kent sandvik quotes ml remember these laws were written for a different time and applied only to god s chosen people but jesus has changed all of that we are living in the age of grace sin is no longer immediately punishable by death there is repentance and there is salvation through our lord jesus christ and not just for a few chosen people salvation is available to everyone jew and gentile alike jews won t agree with you malcolm which jews ks most religious jews with the exception of the messianic ones and atheists agnostics malcolm ks i see you re wanting malcolm s response allow me one last inter jection then please distinguishing among the religious jews you ve excepted the messianic for obvious reasons specifically are you saying it s these religious jews who trace their lineage back to abraham by blood and orthodoxy rather than by faith who won t agree orthodox jews as to the a a if i understand your direction the issue remains unproven i suspect considering how atheists and agnostics so often look to reason atheist it is reasonable to conclude will not agree for agnostics a poll seems in order who knows myself i m not so sure the atheists can be counted out for the orthodox i wonder how many would follow moses or abraham or david in accepting god s word is the particular covenant to which one adheres more important than god promisimg i reckon for many it depends on the ongoing dialogue under these considerations you might understand why i think it s premature to assert who will and won t agree j stephen
|
11,018 | talk.religion.misc | re after years can we say that christian morality is oxymoronic in article m rusnews w w mantis co uk mathew mantis co uk mathew writes livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes not of course the greatest salesman in the world that was jesus wasn t it no j r bob dobbs definitely j r bob dobbs numero uno top dog not one can touch not one can knock bob out of the box bob kills me mon everyday but close el segundo el subliminal is the infamous paul birthname saul the evangeline who became famous as a result of his numerous trampoline act tours of the eastern mediterranean jesus on the other hand was duped a pawn of the con fell pray to the holywood paradox ain t nothing but a sign in the hills like many afro asians jesus found the earth all too pink and to think that after his death the con changed him into a tall blond holywood sun god and i do mean that in the kindest way possums now jesus does gigs with hendrix joplin morrison lennon marley tosh etc mostly ska beat jah know
|
11,019 | talk.religion.misc | re albert sabin in article apr rambo atlanta dg com wpr atlanta dg com bill rawlins writes however one highly biased account as well as possibly internally inconsistent written over mellenia ago in a dead language by fanatic devotees of the creature in question which is not supported by other more objective sources and isnt even accepted by those who s messiah this creature was supposed to be doesn t convince me in the slightest especially when many of the current day devotees appear brainwashed into believing this pile of guano since you have referred to the messiah i assume you are referring to the new testament please detail your complaints or e mail if you don t want to post first century greek is well known and well understood have you considered josephus the jewish historian who also wrote of jesus in addition the four gospel accounts are very much in harmony bill i have taken the time to explain that biblical scholars consider the josephus reference to be an early christian insert by biblical scholar i mean an expert who in the course of his or her research is willing to let the chips fall where they may this excludes literalists who may otherwise be defined as biblical apologists they find what they want to find they are not trustworthy by scholarly standards and others why an insert read it i have a number of times the passage is glaringly out of context and josephus a superb writer had no such problem elsewhere in his work the passage has nothing to do with the subject matter in which it lies it suddenly appears and then just as quickly disappears until you can demonstrate how and why the scholarly community is wrong about the josephus insert your proof is meaningless and it should not be repeated here what s more even if josephus happened to be legitimate it would prove nothing scholars speak of the weight of evidence far more independent evidence would be required to validate your claim until forthcoming your belief is based on faith that s ok but you exceed your rights when you pass faith off as fact as for the gospels there are parallels but there are also glaring inconsistencies and contradictions shouldn t a perfect canon be perfect shouldn t there be absolutely no room for debate i suggest you read gospel fictions by randel helms and the unauthorized version by robin fox for herb huston no known kinship or familial relationship but we do indeed share an evolutionary ancestry the fact that there are inconsistencies gaps and contradictions does not deny your position on the other hand neither do the gospels prove your faith independent evidence is necessary and i know of none which we have already discussed and so far you have not provided any until then its faith moreover you have committed a fundamental error in logic you have attempted to prove your claim with that which you want to prove its no different than saying i am right because i say so your logic is full of circles it reminds me a bit of the presbyterian general assembly the assembly defined five fundamentals this is where fundamentalist came from of orthodox protestant christianity to wit jesus performed miracles jesus was born of a virgin jesus was bodily resurrected jesus crucifixion atoned for human sin and here is the clincher the bible is the inerrant word of god presbyterians construe inerrant broadly as spritually inerrant fundamentalists take the first four as literally true and then validate them with a literally inerrant bible which contains the first four and which is the only thing known to contain the first four smoke and mirrors and wands and hand waving if ever there was its faith bill you don t have any more or better truths than anyone else whatever works for you just don t foist it on others regards rich fox anthro usouthdakota
|
11,020 | talk.religion.misc | re ignorance is bliss was is it good that jesus died in article f ap quack kfu com pharvey quack kfu com paul harvey wrote in article sandvik sandvik kent apple com sandvik newton apple com kent sandvik writes ignorance is not bliss ignorance is strength help spread the truth of ignorance huh if ignorance is strength then i won t distribute this piece of information if i want to follow your advice contradiction above cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities on the net
|
11,021 | talk.religion.misc | re after years can we say that christian morality is in article qme c k kyle eitech com ekr kyle eitech com eric rescorla writes in article qm b gn horus ap mchp sni de frank d s uucp frank o dwyer writes in article qktj bn squick eitech com ekr squick eitech com eric rescorla writes in article qkn t l horus ap mchp sni de frank d s uucp frank o dwyer writes like i said before des works whether i value my privacy or not o k which des the abstract function des that stops working in any important sense if no one cares for the importance of truth mathematics meaning information etc a des chip or des s w that stops working in any important sense if no one values science objective reality etc des does not work in a value vacuum nothing else does either this is just truth by blatant assertion your in any important sense seem to be just weasel words imagine that i have a box which accepts bytes and uses the first to ecb the second it still does a perfect job of desing whether or not any input is being made at the time whether or not anyone values mathematics if no one looks at the results or acknowledges their correctness in what meaningful sense can the chip be said to work does flibozity exist by flibozity i mean a particular extremely complex configuration of physical phenomena which no one absolutely no one cares about in the slightest does it exist eric getting back to the question of whether the des chip works doesn t work mean something like achieving the desired expected effect note the way intentionality subtly underlies that definition even if we take the definition as expected instead of desired can you deny that conformance to expectations is itself a value of sorts namely the scientific values of accuracy of prediction and reproducibility of results the phenomenologist husserl for one considered intentionality to be the primary ontological stuff from which all other ontology was built perceptions consciousness thoughts etc frank is by no means alone in seeing intentionality or values as he puts it underlying all human experience even the so called objective experiences such as measurements of the natural world or the output of your des chip kevin
|
11,022 | talk.religion.misc | re after years can we say that christian morality is in article apr mnemosyne cs du edu kcochran nyx cs du edu keith justified and ancient cochran writes followups set out of talk abortion in article c fuo ff news cso uiuc edu cobb alexia lis uiuc edu mike cobb writes am i reading this thread wrong or is this just another bemoaning of the fact that christianity has a code of objective morality please define this objective morality while you re at it please state the theory of creationism still searching for an irrelevant issue in which to mire a pro lifer i see slimy tactic kevin
|
11,023 | talk.religion.misc | re after years can we say that christian morality is in article qlvh fh horus ap mchp sni de frank d s uucp frank o dwyer writes in article qkn k fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes do you mean it s moral to use force on someone who advocates the use of force with a few provisos yes minimum force for a start and it depends on what is being forced on either side or do you mean that sometimes we have to use force on such people out of necessity or self defence while recognizing that our own actions in doing so are not moral my opinion is that our actions would be moral and it would be immoral not to act if action would be both necessary and effective again there many caveats and provisios note my usage of my opinion is an admission that i don t have a lock on morals not that there is no truth about morality to have a lock on you re admitting a lot more than that you are admitting that your morals are situational you are admitting that the actions of other people and the situation you are in help to determine how you judge the moral significance of one of your own actions if you employ x degree of force that s not moral but if you employ x degree of force but previously someone else has employed y degree of force and the situation is thus and so that is moral this is quite different from saying employing force on other people is immoral period unfortunately from time to time we are obliged to do this immoral thing for reasons of self preservation and so we have to bear the moral consequences of that for what it s worth and yes i know you claim to be an agnostic it s this ability to re label things from immoral to moral that i find one of the least attractive qualities of the religious mind jon
|
11,024 | talk.religion.misc | re after years can we say that christian morality is in article qm fm horus ap mchp sni de frank d s uucp frank o dwyer writes in article qkndq k fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes in article qjbn na horus ap mchp sni de frank d s uucp frank o dwyer writes in article kmr po cwru edu kmr po cwru edu keith m ryan writes you have only pushed back the undefined meaning you must now define what objective values are really you don t know what objective value is if i offered the people of the u s collectively for all of the land in america would that sound like a good deal you mean that if you can find a ridiculous price the rest of us are supposed to conclude that an objectively correct price exists i said nothing about the price i asked if the deal was good it isn t so it was a complete non sequitur is that it how does coming up with a derisory deal tell us anything about the existence of objective values you re asking us to accept that the deal you offered would be turned down and we believe that not because we appeal to objective values but becasue we know or think we know something about people all the people we know exhibit subjective values that would lead them to reject a deal of for all of the land in america great now so what jon
|
11,025 | talk.religion.misc | re the bad press islam has recieved in article buddha du cc iastate edu buddha iastate edu scott h vann writes i recently read an article in a local paper written by an islamic person who was upset with the way islam has been portrayed by western media when a terrorist action takes place in the middle east it is always played up as an islamic terrorist however when the a serbian terrorist attacks the croations its not a christian terrorist its just a terrorist i have often tried to explain this to some close friends who believe the press that islam is somehow tied to violence often times you hear things like they just don t value human life like we do and so on i was wondering if anyone out there had any suggestions for how we can change this image or how i can help my friends to see that this is just hype i would appreciate any serious suggestions or comments via e mail and i m not interested in hearing about how right the press is very easily show them pictures of crime scenes perpetrated by christian terrorists in this country if that doesn t convince them have them talk to the victims of christian terrorism a brutal act of terrorism inspired by christian propoganda was recently commited on your very campus its very simple religious extremists of all religions put no value on human life christian and islamic fundamentalists put advancing there religion above all else even if doing so violates the religion itself p s i m not saying all christians are terrorists i m using christian terrorist in the same way the media uses islamic terrorist join the pythagorean reform church repent of your evil irrational numbers and bean eating ways accept into your heart call the pythagorean reform church bbs at
|
11,026 | talk.religion.misc | re rosicrucian order s kent with all due respect how can i take you seriously when you have the names wrong in the st place e g the san jose rc ordo rosae crucis there is no such thing the correct name is ancient mystical order rosae crucis abbreviated amorc and the rocicrusian order created by max heindel there is no such thing either it s the rosicrucian fellowship and they clearly state that they do not pretend to descend from the order of the fama fraternitatis in addition there are many splinter groups all around europe that all claim some connection with the original group supposedly founded in the middle ages the lectorium and who else some freemason groups also have rosicrucian like separate groups even if they are far from the ideologies the rc groups have somehow in common these are not rosicrucian orders they are masonic study groups none of which claims to be descendant of the original order we might compete about how much time we have spent with this let me start i was part of the orc for about years kent what is orc if you mean amorc you didn t even learn the correct name tony
|
11,027 | talk.religion.misc | re rosicrucian order s alamut netcom com max delysid y writes in article qppef i b usenet ins cwru edu ch cleveland freenet edu tony name just three really competing rosicrucian orders i have probably spent more time than you doing the same none of them are spin offs from o t o the opposite may be the case can we assume from this statement that you are unequivocally saying that amorc is not a spin off of oto and that in fact oto may well be a spin off of amorc i would be quite interested in hearing what evidence you have to support this claim well there is a fair amount of evidence floating around that indicates that oto has been around since at least the late s long before crowley ever heard of it how long has amorc been around yes i know that they claim to have existed as an organization clear into prehistory but i doubt that they have any organizational paperwork as a non profit that can be carbon dated to bc a lizard a lizard internet addresses alizard tweekco boo pacbell com preferred pacbell com boo tweekco alizard bang path for above alizard gentoo com backup pgp public key available on request
|
11,028 | talk.religion.misc | re rosicrucian order s in a previous article alamut netcom com max delysid y says can we assume from this statement that you are unequivocally saying that amorc is not a spin off of oto absolutely lewis didn t care for the o t o charter from reuss he had in mind something completely diferent crowley and lewis were very different persons as you probably know and that in fact oto may well be a spin off of amorc no my overstatement sorry study harder study smarter not harder i always do
|
11,029 | talk.religion.misc | re rosicrucian order s on the subject of how many competing rc orders there are let me point out the golden dawn is only the outer order of that tradition the inner order is the roseae rubeae et aurae crucis that s ruby rose and gold cross in rough translation the g d is a rosicrucian order as are all derivative groups of course real rosicrucians never admit to being rosicrucian enjoy the journey br anarthur queer peculiar and wyrd closed minds don t want to know jjobermark
|
11,030 | talk.religion.misc | re rosicrucian order s in a previous article ba mrcnext cso uiuc edu b a davis howe says on the subject of how many competing rc orders there are let me point out the golden dawn is only the outer order of that tradition the inner order is the roseae rubeae et aurae crucis just wondering do you mean the lectorium rosicrucianum warning there is no point in arguing who s legit and who s not which golden dawn are you talking about just for the sake of argument reflecting no affiliation i am going to say that the true rosicrucian order is the fraternitas rosae crucis in quakertown penn any takers fraternally tony
|
11,031 | talk.religion.misc | a treatise on the miracles of muhammad saw part the following is an introduction as to who is muhammad saw as will be covered with this treatise muhammad peace and blessings of allah be upon him saw is the last prophet of islam he is the prophet who is revealed the last holy scripture qur an by allah swa all praise be to him through the arch angel gabriel he is the seal of all prophets till the day of judgement as stated in the qur an by allah swa all praise be to him muhammad saw lived between ac all other prophethoods claimed after muhammad saw is a treason against islam against qur an against the message of allah swa muhammad saw is from the seed of ishmael another messenger of allah and son of abraham also a messenger of allah he is the messenger that previous holy scriptures foretold his coming the above mentioned verse from the qur an is from chapter verse whose rough translation is as follows muhammad is not the father of any of your men but he is the messenger of allah and the seal of the prophets and allah has full knowledge of all things commentary on the above verse when a document is sealed it is complete and there can be no further addition the holy prophet muhammad saw closed the long line of messengers allah s teaching is and will always be continuous but there has been and will be no prophet after muhammad saw the later ages will want thinkers and revivers not prophets this is not an arbitrary matter it is a decree full of knowledge and wisdom for allah has full knowledge of all things droplet vol no part a d r o p l e t from the vast ocean of the miraculous qur an translations from the arabic and turkish writings of bediuzzaman said nursi the risale i noor vol no part nineteenth letter mu jizat i ahmediye risalesi a treatise on the miracles of muhammed saw continued from droplet vol no part second sign the noble messenger saw declared his prophethood and presented to humanity a decree as the glorious qur an and manifest miracles which number according to the scholars one thousand the occurrence of those miracles in their entirety is as certain as the fact that he declared himself prophet in fact as a shown by the words of the most obstinate unbelievers quoted in various places of the wise our an even they could not deny the occurrence of his miracles but only called them hasha wa kella allah forbids sorcery in order to satisfy themselves or to deceive their followers the miracles of muhammad saw have the certainty of confirmation by consensus of ulema scholars of islam to the hundreth degree the miracle is the conformation by the creator of the universe of his declaration of prophethood it has the effect of the words you have indeed spoken the truth suppose that you said in the assembly of a ruler while being observed by him the true ruler has appointed me to such and such position at a time when you were asked to prove your claim the word yes uttered by the ruler would sufficiently support you or if the ruler changed his usual practice and attitude at your request this would confirm your claim even more soundly and more definitely than would the word yes in the same way allah s most noble messenger claimed i am the envoy of the creator of this universe my proof is that he will change his unbroken order at my request and my prayer now look at my fingers he makes them run like a fountain with five spigots look at the moon by a gesture of my finger he splits it in two look at that tree to affirm me and to bear witness to me it moves and comes near to me look at this food although it is barely enough for two or three men it satisfies two or three hundred further he shows hundreds of similar miracles however the evidences of the veracity of this high being and the proofs of his prophethood are not restricted to his miracles all his deeds and acts his words and behavior his moral conduct and manners his character and appearance prove to the attentive his truthfulness and seriousness indeed many people such as abdullah b salam the famous scholar of the children of israel came to belief merely by seeing him and said no lie can hide in this face nor can any fraud be found in it although many of the researchers have concluded that the proofs of the prophethood of muhammad and his miracles number about one thousand there are thousands perhaps hundreds of thousands of proofs of his prophethood and hundreds of thousands of truth seeking men muhakkikiin with varying opinions have affirmed his prophethood in an equal number of ways the wise our an alone demonstrates thousands of the proofs of his prophethood in addition to its own forty aspects of miraculousness since prophethood is as a phenomenon of humanity and hundreds of thousands of individuals who claimed prophethood and performed miracles have lived and passed away then the prophethood of muhammad saw is of a certanity superior to that of the prophethood of all the others for whatever evidences qualities and attributes became the means of the prophethood and messengership of all the messengers such as jesus as and moses as they are all owned in a more perfect and comprehensive fashion by muhammad saw and since the causes and means of prophetic authority exist more perfectly in the person of muhammad saw this authority is to be found in him with more certanity than all the other prophets to be continued allah willing irfan alan a servant of islam
|
11,032 | talk.religion.misc | re after years can we say that christian morality is kevin rotag mi org kevin darcy writes in article apr mnemosyne cs du edu kcochran nyx cs du edu keith justified and ancient cochran writes followups set out of talk abortion in article c fuo ff news cso uiuc edu cobb alexia lis uiuc edu mike cobb writes am i reading this thread wrong or is this just another bemoaning of the fact that christianity has a code of objective morality please define this objective morality while you re at it please state the theory of creationism still searching for an irrelevant issue in which to mire a pro lifer i see slimy tactic kevin well when you crosspost to talk origins what do you expect michael agney just because you re paranoid doesn t mean they re not out to get you magney cco caltech edu
|
11,033 | talk.religion.misc | re albert sabin in article c p t sunfish usd edu rfox charlie usd edu writes in article apr rambo atlanta dg com wpr atlanta dg com bill rawlins writes however one highly biased account as well as possibly internally inconsistent written over mellenia ago in a dead language by fanatic devotees of the creature in question which is not supported by other more objective sources and isnt even accepted by those who s messiah this creature was supposed to be doesn t convince me in the slightest especially when many of the current day devotees appear brainwashed into believing this pile of guano since you have referred to the messiah i assume you are referring to the new testament please detail your complaints or e mail if you don t want to post first century greek is well known and well understood have you considered josephus the jewish historian who also wrote of jesus in addition the four gospel accounts are very much in harmony bill i have taken the time to explain that biblical scholars consider the josephus reference to be an early christian insert by biblical scholar i mean an expert who in the course of his or her research is willing to let the chips fall where they may this excludes literalists who may otherwise be defined as biblical apologists they find what they want to find they are not trustworthy by scholarly standards and others why an insert read it i have a number of times the passage is glaringly out of context and josephus a superb writer had no such problem elsewhere in his work the passage has nothing to do with the subject matter in which it lies it suddenly appears and then just as quickly disappears i think this is a weak argument the fact is there are two references to jesus in antiquities of the jews one of which has unquestionably at least been altered by christians origen wrote in the third century that josephus did not recognize jesus as the messiah while the long passage says the opposite there is an arabic manuscript of antiquities of the jews which contains a version of the passage which is much less gung ho for jesus and may be authentic there is no question that origen in the third century saw a reference to jesus in josephus there are no manuscripts of antiquities which lack the references it is possible that it was fabricated out of whole cloth and inserted but i don t think it s very likely nor do i think there is a consensus in the scholarly community that this is the case i know g a wells takes this position but that s because he takes the very small minority view that jesus never existed and he is a professor of german not of biblical history or new testament or anything directly relevant to the historicity of jesus jim lippard lippard ccit arizona edu dept of philosophy lippard arizvms bitnet university of arizona tucson az
|
11,034 | talk.religion.misc | re rosicrucian order s ch cleveland freenet edu tony alicea writes in a previous article ba mrcnext cso uiuc edu b a davis howe says on the subject of how many competing rc orders there are let me point out the golden dawn is only the outer order of that tradition the inner order is the roseae rubeae et aurae crucis just wondering do you mean the lectorium rosicrucianum warning there is no point in arguing who s legit and who s not which golden dawn are you talking about no i don t mean the lr whatever that is as for which gd i m using the complete golden dawn system of magic as my source so unless regardie is lying i m pulling the name out the the original order s rituals the multiple modern groups are part of why i through in the comment about all the spin offs just for the sake of argument reflecting no affiliation i am going to say that the true rosicrucian order is the fraternitas rosae crucis in quakertown penn as a member of the religious society of friends my membership is in the urbana champaign il friends meeting i find that amusingly ironic any takers not me i don t want to belong to anything which runs around claiming to be the true whatever i find that disgusting enjoy the journey br anarthur queer peculiar and wyrd closed minds don t want to know jjobermark
|
11,035 | talk.religion.misc | re after years can we say that christian morality is judi wam umd edu jay t stein objectively subjective writes question is there any effective difference between objective values exist and there is disagreement over what they are and values are subjective i don t see any the first means that some aspect of reality contains objective values the second means that values are a reference to some preference of the individual in the first case it is possible that some future discovery might invalidate certain views re what objective values are ron house usq house helios usq edu au toowoomba australia
|
11,036 | talk.religion.misc | re flaming nazis in article qsami h access digex net dickeney access digex com dick eney writes the trouble with trying to find out the truth is that roehm and his buddies were accused of being flaming faggots one of the pretexts for the night of long knives in which roehm and most of the sa wing of the nsdap were purged stop hold it you have a few problems here official history says that the first accusations of homosexuality in the sa came from outside of the nazi party long before the nazis ever came to power so this objection is a red herring even if established history is wrong on this point moreover none of the histories i ve read ever made mention of hitler or anyone else ever using homosexuality as a pretext for purging roehm a point i saw reiterated was that hitler and the party covered up these accusations if you are going to accuse official history of being a fabrication you should at least get your facts right the pretext for purging roehm was that he was planning to use the sa in a coup against hitler nowhere is there mention of using allegations of homosexuality as a pretext for the purge nor as a justification afterwards it is possible that the histories i ve read have not mentioned this but i doubt it would it be in hitler s best interest to admit to the world that his former right hand man was a homosexual anyway as i said before it is always possible that i have missed references to the nazis making use of charges of homosexuality against the sa after the night of the long knives but this does not prove that they were false even the nazis could tell the truth when it was to their advantage in any case this does not deal with accusations of homosexuality in the sa during the s since the accusers thereafter controlled the records anything bearing on the subject true or not has to be considered tainted evidence ah yes i forgot this was being posted to alt conspiracy i can smell the paranoia from here since the nazis never officially charged roehm with homosexuality at least not according to what i ve read i d like to know what tainted evidence you are talking about since the accusations were made by persons outside of the nazi party long before it came to power and those accusations were common knowledge to journalists and others in germany in the s and s just how would it be possible for the nazis to go back in time and plant tainted evidence how exactly does one doctor newspapers which were circulated around the world without the discrepancies being obvious what actual incidences of nazi doctoring evidence on this matter do you know about and what about the testimony of people who were involved in these matters some of whom were not nazis and what is the point of making a false accusation of homosexuality if you do not publicize it since the point here seems to be to discredit established history then the burden of proof falls on the revisionist the revisionists had better do their homework before making accusations otherwise they simply look like conspiracy nuts the available data suggest that roehm and his crowd the sa sturmabteilung storm troopers left the world a better place when they departed this is just about the only thing we agree on i suspect that the notion that there might have been bad people roehm and his sa buddies who were homosexuals must disturb some people the feeling seems to be that if a nasty individual is accused of homosexuality that this must be an attempt to bash homosexuals this fear often justified is what lies behind this distrust of official history or so it seems to me but this is not a good justification for trashing accepted accounts of this subject if you really think that historians are so incompetent why don t you write them and ask where they got their sources on this subject if you can t tell from their footnotes i m a graduate student in history writing to professors and tracking down sources is old hat but my time is limited and this is not my specialty and neither you nor anyone else have said anything that would cast one shred of doubt on existing evidence i m not going to waste my time trying to debunk someone s paranoia do the research yourself but concrete particulars are still no more than more or less shrewd guesses diccon frankborn given that you already consider all evidence tainted what on earth would constitute concrete particulars and since when have concrete particulars been considered shrewd guesses i suggest that those who do not trust popular historians irving et al historians writing for a popular audience do not as a rule provide copious footnotes should try instead reading academic historians who usually provide footnotes to all their sources in immmense detail this is the place to start looking assuming that one really wants to know the truth i ll bet the folks on alt pagan are tired of this subject already my apologies we seem to have gone off on a bit of a tangent i forget which gods are responsible for keeping strings within appropriate newsgroup subject boundaries david matthew deane deane binah cc brandeis edu be in me as the eternal moods of the bleak wind let the gods speak softly of us in days hereafter ezra pound
|
11,037 | talk.religion.misc | re clarification of personal position jesus and the law sandvik newton apple com kent sandvik writes my online bible is on a cd but i don t own a cd rom system for the time being so i can t search for the famous cite where jesus explicitly states that he didn t want to break existing jewish laws in other words technically speaking christians should use saturday and not sunday as their holy day if they want to conform to the teachings of jesus i think the passage you re looking for is the following matthew think not that i have come to abolish the law and the prophets i have come not to abolish them but to fulfil them matthew for truly i say to you till heaven and earth pass away not an iota not a dot will pass from the law until all is accomplished matthew whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven matthew for i tell you unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and pharisees you will never enter the kingdom of heaven there are several problems with this the most serious is that the law was regarded by jews at the time and now as binding on jews but not on gentiles there are rules that were binding on all human beings the so called noachic laws but they are quite minimal the issue that the church had to face after jesus death was what to do about gentiles who wanted to follow christ the decision not to impose the law on them didn t say that the law was abolished it simply acknowledged that fact that it didn t apply to gentiles this is a simple answer which i think just about everyone can agree to a discussion of the issue in more or less these terms is recorded in acts however there s more involved in order to get a full picture of the role of the law we have to come to grips with paul s apparent rejection of the law and how that relates to jesus commendation of the law at least as i read paul he says that the law serves a purpose that has been in a certain sense superceded again this issue isn t one of the abolition of the law in the middle of his discussion paul notes that he might be understood this way and assures us that that s not what he intends to say rather he sees the law as primarily being present to convict people of their sinfulness but ultimately it s an impossible standard and one that has been superceded by christ paul s comments are not the world s clearest here and not everyone agrees with my reading but the interesting thing to notice is that even this radical position does not entail an abolition of the law it still remains as an uncompromising standard from which not an iota or dot may be removed for its purpose of convicting of sin it s important that it not be relaxed however for christians it s not the end ultimately we live in faith not law while the theoretical categories they use are rather different in the end i think jesus and paul come to a rather similar conclusion the quoted passage from mat should be taken in the context of the rest of the sermon on the mount where jesus shows us how he interprets the law the not an iota or dot would suggest a rather literal reading but in fact that s not jesus approach jesus interpretations emphasize the intent of the law and stay away from the ceremonial details indeed he is well known for taking a rather free attitude towards the sabbath and kosher laws some scholars claim that mat needs to be taken in the context of st cent jewish discussions jesus accuses his opponents of caring about giving a tenth of even the most minor herbs but neglecting the things that really matter justice mercy and faith and caring about how cups and plates are cleaned but not about the fact that inside the people who use them are full of extortion and rapacity mat this and the discussion later in mat suggest that jesus has a very specific view of the law in mind and that when he talks about maintaining the law in its full strength he is thinking of these aspects of it paul s conclusion is similar while he talks about the law being superceded all of the specific examples he gives involve the ceremonial law such as circumcision and the sabbath he is quite concerned about maintaining moral standards the net result of this is that when paul talks about the law being superceded and jesus talks about the law being maintained i believe they are talking about different aspects of the law paul is embroiled in arguments about circumcision as is natural in letters responding to specific situations he s looking at the aspect of the law that is currently causing trouble the law as specifically jewish ceremonies he certainly does not intend to abolish divine standards of conduct on the other hand when jesus commends the law he seems to be talking the law in its broadest implications for morals and human relationships and deemphasizing those aspects that were later to give paul so much trouble it s unfortunate that people use the same terms in different ways but we should be familiar with that from current conflicts look at the way terms like family values take on special meaning from the current context imagine some poor historian of the future trying to figure out why family values should be used as a code word for opposition to homosexuality in one specific period in the u s i think law had taken on a similar role in the arguments paul was involved in paul was clearly not rejecting all of the jewish values that go along with the term law any more than people who concerned about the family values movement are really opposed to family values
|
11,038 | talk.religion.misc | re rosicrucian order s in article qsqar n m usenet ins cwru edu ch cleveland freenet edu tony alicea writes in a previous article ba mrcnext cso uiuc edu b a davis howe says on the subject of how many competing rc orders there are let me point out the golden dawn is only the outer order of that tradition the inner order is the roseae rubeae et aurae crucis just wondering do you mean the lectorium rosicrucianum warning there is no point in arguing who s legit and who s not which golden dawn are you talking about which golden dawn how about the original from years ago just for the sake of argument reflecting no affiliation i am going to say that the true rosicrucian order is the fraternitas rosae crucis in quakertown penn any takers no no rosicrucian would ever admit or deny being such wassail grendel grettisson
|
11,039 | talk.religion.misc | re merlin mithras and magick kosinski us oracle com kevin osinski writes i recall reading in michael rutherford s novel sarum a scene in which the son of a roman nobleman living in britain takes part in a secret ceremony involving a bull he stands naked in a pit covered with some sort of scaffolding while assistants coax a bull to stand on the scaffolding they then fatally stab the bull which douses the worshipper in the pit with blood this is supposedly some sort of rite of passage for members of the bull cult i wonder if this is related to the mithras cult yes this is certainly one of the traditional ideas about the mithraic cult although not the only one it had many elements that seem to have been borrowed by catholicism e g the mass communion the sharing of a sacred meal consecration of bread and wine etc for quite an amusing novel that uses this same idea check out the covenant of the flame by david morrell it has some quite interesting occult bits and lots of killing i won t spoil it by revealing the ending but i will say that it is relevant to mithraism paul actrix co at paul gillingwater home office in vienna austria if you read news with rn or trn ask me about eep the newsrc editor
|
11,040 | talk.religion.misc | part and part re homosexuality tony i read your post it was nothing new i had seen much the same in other typical christian anti gay sentimental literature gay people are and will con tinue to be persecuted as long as such propaganda petpetuates you may be unaware of all the statistica findings concerning african americans that have been published and used by various groups to re enforce their own bias against african americans we usually think of the kkk in these instances but there are many other groups of course the vast majority of the public scoff at such findings and documents today but that was not always the case fortunately african americans had whites who supported their cause and public sentiment was eventually if not entirely turned around there was even a civil war and anti negro sentiment increased in fact until laws were put in place to protect the inalienable rights of blacks it was pretty much legal to discriminate against them i know many gays and i will not turn my back on them or their right to be free form discrimination you may think that i have been deceived or something that is your perogative my church christian church disciples of christ openly affirms the rights of oppressed people of all segments of society including gays we believe the gospel message of preaching to all creation and making disciples we believe in the lord s great commandment to love and we beleive in standing up for the oppressed even if it is not popular to do so i really like my church for last reason the most i can find a church almost anywhere in the valley that stands for the gospel and believes in the commandment of love though i m hard pressed to find many who actually sho love but not many are willing to champion the oppressed especially within their own community i may have lost face with the greater christian community for the unpopularity of my beliefs but so did the abolitionists against the oppression of african americans many were even killed and treated as runaway slaves for being nigger lovers and such i guess i ve decided the challenge is worth it in my talks with gay men and women i have heard tragic story after tragic story centering around failed marriages wives and husbands who are straight who have been hurt in the process etc funny thing is i don t know of one case where the parents ex wives or even children have continued to reject their gay family member son daughter ex husband father etc after they began to take part in some form of support group like pflag i m apalled by the legislation which passed in colorado and am equally out raged that such slimey people as louis sheldon from the tradition values coalition have been actively working in the christian underground to garner support within several i believe states this coming november for more oppressive legisation against gays perhaps you don t get it and maybe you never will many didn t get it in the middle ages and the proclaimed god s will be done as they massacred thousands in witch hunts and inquisitions the message that comes through loud and clear by proponents against gay rights and against gays in general is that there is a strong dislike even hatred for gays whether you want to call it such or not it doesn t change the results the major flaw in all this posturing is that in the end the final effect of posts like that of yours and mr hudson is that you have a conditional love for gays condition change and we ll love you this is sure strange coming from a group who claim that god has an unconditional love one that calls people just as they are sure there are things that will naturally change and habits like alcoholism wife beating etc that need to be changed through some sort of therapy but then there are things like left handedness etc that no amount of beating it out of people is going to result in anything more than an outward conforminty to other people s expectations in the process this coerced conformity causes many people a great deal of harm especially when it is caused by people who have nothing more to gain from it that to become even more puffed up about their own sense of pseuper spirituality this is sad but i thoroughly believe that one day it will change it may be unpopular to cry for justice and equality when the basis has to do with something very personal like sexuality a taboo subject even today but i firmly believe in the rights of individuals to be free from impose regulation on thier bedrooms it s funny that most straight people have successfully removed restrictive and oppressive legislation against invasive legislation but we like to maintain this little chestnut of repression as though it helps us maintain a sense of superiority over at least one segment of society gay people are not criminals another interesting thing happened recently a very prominent charismatic church in the silicon valley here had two of it s pastors arrested for self admitted charges of pederasty men having sex with boys this had apparently been going on for some time a couple years but since the charges were voluntary and the church worked closely with the police so i imagine that was how they managed to downplay it in the media how could such a thing happen when the church itself has an ex gay ministry one of my friends recently told me he was approached by someone who is going through the reparitive therapy there and he was thoroughly convinced that the request for dinner was not an invitation to attend the ministry these are difficult times we live in but providing hostile environments and creating and perpetuating an atmosphere that breed hate and violence is not the call of the christian community the results of the passing amendment in colorado has created an organization who s posters are appearing all over colorado called s t r a i g h t i forget the whole definition off hand but the last part was against immoral gross homosexual trash and their motto is working for a fag free america with an implicit advocation for violence this is sick and it seems to be what you and mr hudson and others are embracing we christians have a loooooooooong tradition of coersion and oppression towards those we feel don t measure up and constant beratement from organizations like the christian research institute while they do have a good purpose also their major work seems to be finding new and better ways of excluding people the gospel i believe is not so negative rather it seeks ways to include people i have several of dr martin s books and find them quite helpful especially concerning cults but it seems that cri has become a cult unto itself why don t we just stick to the positive and find ways to bring people to jesus istead of taking bullwhips and driving them away whatever rich
|
11,041 | talk.religion.misc | re christian daemons biblical demons the u the neighbor of the beast no is across the street from the beast and are the neighbors of the beast i think some people are still not clear on this is not the neighbor of the beast but rather across the street it is in fact which is the neighbor of the beast no sheesh didn t you know is the beast s apartment is across the hall from the beast and is his neighbor along with the rest of the th floor justin still trying to figure out what this has to do with alt discordia this doesn t seem discordant to you paul w stigaard lokean discordian libertarian xoa internet stigaard mhd moorhead msus edu fnord episkopos and chair moorhead state university campus discordians rectal neufotomist at large if i left a quote here someone would think it meant something
|
11,042 | talk.religion.misc | re a kind and loving god in article aa dangermouse mitre org jmeritt mental mitre org writes leviticus and the daughter of any priest if she profane herself by playing the whore she profaneth her father she shall be burnt with fire deuteronomy and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father s house and the men of the city shall stone her with stones that she die deuteronomy if a man be found lying with a woman married to a husband then they shall both of them die deuteronomy if a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto a husband and a man find her in the city and lie with her then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city and ye shall stone them with stones that they die deuteronomy but if a man find a betrothed damsel in the field and the man force her and lie with her then the man only that lay with her shall die if it were nt for the sin of men none of this killing would have been necesarry he is kind and loving but also righteous sin must be punished before jesus man had to take the sins on himself but jesus died and took it all upon him so now we also have a forgiving god if he were not kind and loving there wouldn t have been any people left
|
11,043 | talk.religion.misc | re part and part re homosexuality rich bellacera amail amdahl com writes the results of the passing amendment in colorado has created an organization who s posters are appearing all over colorado called s t r a i g h t i forget the whole definition off hand but the last part was against immoral gross homosexual trash and their motto is working for a fag free america with an implicit advocation for violence i live in colorado and have never heard of such a group obviously claims that their posters are appearing all over colorado are a tad overdone this is sick and it seems to be what you and mr hudson and others are embracing hardly saying that homosexuality is a sin is a far cry from working for a fag free america saying that i wouldn t want a homosexual babysitting for my kids doesnt mean i endorse against immoral gross homosexual trash we christians have a loooooooooong tradition of coersion and oppression towards those we feel don t measure up and now we have homosexual advocates telling us that if we don t teach our kids that homosexuality is natural and a perfectly acceptable alternative lifestyle then they will have it done for us no thanks the gospel i believe is not so negative rather it seeks ways to include people absolutely and the message is always go and sin no more not go and do whatever feels good one question at the start of your post you wrote i know many gays and i will not turn my back on them or their right to be free form discrimination i may have lost face with the greater christian community for the unpopularity of my beliefs but so did the abolitionists against the oppression of african americans many were even killed and treated as runaway slaves for being nigger lovers and such i guess i ve decided the challenge is worth it this sounds real nice but struck me as a little odd you re presenting yourself as if you were a straight xian who is sticking his neck out and taking on the challenge of speaking out in support of gays in the church but i was under the impression that you yourself are gay that s all well and fine but presenting yourself as sticking out your neck to help repressed others seems a bit untruthful under the circumstances walter
|
11,044 | talk.religion.misc | re apr god s promise in john in article f vmpxk quack kfu com pharvey quack kfu com paul harvey writes in article bskendigc h o d p netcom com bskendig netcom com brian kendig writes psyrobtw ubvmsb cc buffalo edu robert weiss writes but if we walk in the light as he is in the light we have fellowship one with another and the blood of jesus christ his son cleanseth us from all sin it can not be a light which cleanses if it is tainted with the blood of an innocent man human blood sacrifice martyrdom of an innocent virgin nailed to a wooden pole what is this obsession with male menstruation christian washed in the blood of the lamb mithraist washed in the blood of the bull if anyone in netland is in the process of devising a new religion do not use the lamb or the bull because they have already been reserved please choose another animal preferably one not on the endangered species list thank you
|
11,045 | talk.religion.misc | re christian owned organization list in article sdcc ucsd edu shopper ucsd edu writes does anyone have or know where i can find a list of christian owned corporations and companies one that i know of is wordperfect naw the owners of wordperfect are mormons and by tony rose s and robert weiss standards mormons aren t christians internet slhw cc usu edu jason hunsaker logan utah
|
11,046 | talk.religion.misc | walter walter i tried several times in the past to communicate with you and susan but you ignored me and i don t honestly believe my letters were mean rather i thought they were thoughtful and compassionate but i see now what i should have seen then call me naive i give up on this group as my lord advised that if you are unwelcome in a city then brush the dust of your feet and go on if anyone cares about the topic they write to me direct if not well may god bless you as well bye to this group pax
|
11,047 | talk.religion.misc | re kind loving merciful and forgiving god in article blue cis pitt edu joslin pogo isp pitt edu david joslin writes m mwunix mitre org james meritt writes joslin pogo isp pitt edu david joslin writes m mwunix mitre org james meritt writes a out of context must have missed when you said this about these other promises of god that we keep getting subjected to could you please explain why i am wrong and they are ok or an acknowledgement of public hypocrisy both or neither so according to you jim the only way to criticize one person for taking a quote out of context without being a hypocrite is to post a response to every person on t r m who takes a quote out of context did i either ask or assert that or is this your misaimed telepathy at work again stephen said you took a quote out of context you noted that stephen had not replied to some other t r m article call it a that took a quote out of context but the lack of evidence for x does not constitute evidence for the lack of x a common creationist error so the fact that stephen did not reply to a does not justify the conclusion that stephen condoned taking quotes out of context in a excellent now under what conditions could such a conclusion be made other than a direct assertion by his part for instance am i to assume that you have no position on eating shit merely because you have not said your position or might a conclusion be made by observing that you do not i assumed you were being logical and that the sentence that begins could you please explain was not a nonsequitur but was intended to follow from the sentence that preceded it is that better jim it s called an argument if you disagree with it explain why the argument is not sound i admit that my assumption in may have been a bit hasty if you agree with it just say yup have you by chance ever even heard of inductive logic you are not demonstrating any familiarly with it i e you are being insufficiently logical
|
11,048 | talk.religion.misc | re a kind and loving god in article aa dangermouse mitre org jmeritt mental mitre org writes leviticus and the daughter of any priest if she profane herself by playing the whore she profaneth her father she shall be burnt with fire deuteronomy and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father s house and the men of the city shall stone her with stones that she die deuteronomy if a man be found lying with a woman married to a husband then they shall both of them die deuteronomy if a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto a husband and a man find her in the city and lie with her then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city and ye shall stone them with stones that they die deuteronomy but if a man find a betrothed damsel in the field and the man force her and lie with her then the man only that lay with her shall die these laws written for the israelites god s chosen people whom god had expressly set apart from the rest of the world the israelites were a direct witness to god s existence to disobey god after knowing that god is real would be an outright denial of god and therefore immediately punishable remember these laws were written for a different time and applied only to god s chosen people but jesus has changed all of that we are living in the age of grace sin is no longer immediately punishable by death there is repentance and there is salvation through our lord jesus christ and not just for a few chosen people salvation is available to everyone jew and gentile alike god be with you malcolm lee
|
11,049 | talk.religion.misc | re apr god s promise in john brian kendig writes lev for the life of the flesh is in the blood and i have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul the old testament was very big on the eye for an eye business it makes sense that leviticus would support physical injury to repay moral wrongdoing brian k guess what you missed the point on a scale from cold to hot you are at degrees kelvin i know about sanctification i ve been taught all about it in sunday school catechism class and theology classes but even after all that i still can t accept it maybe i m still not understanding it or maybe i m just understanding it all too well then as you understand it what is it from the bottom of my heart i know that the punishment of an innocent man is wrong yes i agree with that but what does that have to do with jesus punishment you say jesus did not regard his death as punishment i ve tried repeatedly over the course of several years to accept it but i just can t good i wouldn t either not the way you understand it if you can explain to me why the death of jesus was a good thing then i would be very glad to hear it and you might even convert me be warned however that i ve heard all the most common arguments before and they just don t convince me ask jesus himself he himself said why in john it isn t a mystery to anyone and there certainly is no need for a persuasive argument read jesus s own reply to your question jesus gives more reasons in john but one obvious reason why jesus died and as with everything else it has nothing do with his punishment was that he could rise to life again so that we would stop doubting and believe john the fact that jesus rose from the dead is my hope that i too will rise from the dead it is an obvious point do not overlook it without this obvious point i would have no hope and my faith would be vanity why did jesus suffer in his death again ask jesus jesus says why in john that s no mystery either the world hates him without reason it is a direct proclamation of how far we humans botch things up and thus how much we need a saviour and why can t you brian k accept this how can you the world cannot accept him because it neither sees him nor knows him john the animosity and the lack of knowledge that comes out in your twistings of robert s daily verses is very convincing testimony of the truth of john and i pray and hope that i do blurt out such animosity and lack of knowledge i am not perfect either but regardless of that i thank god that jesus revealed himself to me without whom i d also be bumbling about blindly though arrogantly slandering the very person who created me and who loves me
|
11,050 | talk.religion.misc | re apr god s promise in john in article bskendigc i yh icp netcom com bskendig netcom com brian kendig writes if you can explain to me why the death of jesus was a good thing then i would be very glad to hear it and you might even convert me be warned however that i ve heard all the most common arguments before and they just don t convince me be warned it is not my job to convert you that is the job of the holy spirit and i frankly make a lousy one i am only here to testify your conversion is between you and god i am out of the loop if you decide to follow jesus of which i indeed would be estatic then all the glory be to god brian ceccarelli brian gamma lpl arizona edu
|
11,051 | talk.religion.misc | re kind loving merciful and forgiving god m mwunix mitre org james meritt writes so the fact that stephen did not reply to a does not justify the conclusion that stephen condoned taking quotes out of context in a excellent now under what conditions could such a conclusion be made other than a direct assertion by his part replace stephen with david joslin since you directed the same accusation of hypocrisy at me in e mail to me you wrote in t r m robert weiss writes a promise from psalm gee since you wouldn t be at all hypocritical you must be really busy arguing against these out of context extracted translations as you may recall you mailed me six mail messages quoting articles by robert weiss all sent within a few minutes of each other you added naturally i await your arguments against this out of context translation but i shall not await holding my breath and wonder when you get to sleep disputing all these out of context extracted translations and other similar comments perhaps you could explain why you ever thought that i might have a reason to read all of these articles you pulled off of t r m much less write responses to them have you by chance ever even heard of inductive logic you are not demonstrating any familiarly with it i e you are being insufficiently logical i am familiar with inductive logic go ahead and give me the details of the logic that led you to conclude incorrectly that i would condone robert weiss taking verses out of context your conclusion was wrong of course since i agree that both you and robert weiss were guity of taking verses out of context nothing hypocritical about that is there since you reached a false conclusion you made some mistake in your logic the only question is where did you think that it would be hypocritical for me not to post a reply to robert weiss articles did you make the common creationist error of confusing a lack of evidence for x with evidence for the lack of x is your grasp of inductive logic not quite as firm as you think see if you can figure out what your mistake was and learn from it dj
|
11,052 | talk.religion.misc | re judas crucifixion tyre etc in article qe qk t news ysu edu af yfn ysu edu frank decenso jr writes i need to prioritize things in my life and this board is not all that important to me my personal relationship wife the lord is first my wife is second and my ministry at church is third not to mention my job have you informed your wife of this prioritization this board will have to wait until if ever i can organize my life to fit it in i tried dropping out but sieferman coerced me to come back he won t this time thou hast used my name in vain i never coerce ridicule maybe but never coerce please take responsibility for your actions deletia i m history frank i appreciate your efforts good luck
|
11,053 | talk.religion.misc | re biblical contradictions and archer jenny anderson jennya well sf ca us wrote medtronic com dale m skiba entirely missed my point in my previous posting in which i wrote firmly on the western coast of the med you can bet ium gonna keep this baby my my my such double standards you neglected to give any primary sources for your book encyclopedia of the bible are we to expect that source to be as unbiased as the other sources mr butler did give at least one source you have given none reply it was a joke the readers digest encyclopedia of the bible was the most outrageously bogus authority i could dredge from my shelves i was trying to point out that going to some encyclopedia rather than original or scholarly sources is a big mistake in procedure i am glad to note that butler and decesno are arguing about substance now rather than about arguing i guess the joke was on me i am so used to seeing bogus stuff posted here that i assumed that yours was necessarily the same dale skiba
|
11,054 | talk.religion.misc | re bible contradictions and archer jenny anderson jennya well sf ca us wrote medtronic com dale m skiba entirely missed my point in my previous posting in which i wrote comment shortly after that post i realized two things i was running a fever of over and that i probably should not have gone directly from reading alt slack to posting on this august newsgroup it is not ad hominen to point out that mr archer willingly prints blatant lies in defense of bible inerrancy and thus is worthless as an expert witness okay im game give us a listing of blatant lies from encyclopedia of biblical difficulties or other archer writings that would be interesting if only a very short list can be generated i think it is more likely that mr archer with his inerancy mindset is not always impartial and made a doozy of a mistake imho i also think that this mindset tends to generate these sorts of mistakes on the other hand if a long list can be generated it is more likely that mr archer intentionally uses deception in hs books why should he be deceptive just with tyre so archer is just sitting around rubbing his hands and plotting how next to deceive ok lets see the list this was an open question i assumed that if mr archer is a chronic liar someone whould have documented it this assumption is based on how talk origins regulars have documented numerous cases of creationist deceptions such as duane guish and his friends no long list of archer mistakes has yet been given so this may be just an isolated incident dale skiba
|
11,055 | talk.religion.misc | re did he really rise i must correct the following in my previous posting if you are trying to be objective you must also recognise that the gospels are not independent sources on the contrary they share much of the same material i should have been a bit more careful here the gospels not only tell us about the same events they usually use the same wordings textual analyses show that matthew and luke probably had a common source which may have influenced mark too petri petri pihko kem pmp mathematics is the truth pihatie c finou oulu fi physics is the rule of sf oulu kempmp the game finland phoenix oulu fi chemistry is the game
|
11,056 | talk.religion.misc | catholic lit crit of a s s in article qevbh h v agate berkeley edu dzkriz ocf berkeley edu dennis kriz writes a lot of religious opinions and quotations from the bible and from many catholic theologians and papal bulls which although introduced with a smiley was not as funny as it might have been notable exception subject headers such as one s dick is one s instrument of redemption and indeed the posting seemed to be more a vehicle for the religious text than for any literary moral analysis i am surprised and saddened i would expect this kind of behavior from the evangelical born again gospel thumping in your face we re the only true christian protestants but i have always thought that catholics behaved better than this friend dennis i urge you to follow the example of your fellow catholics of who i count many dozens as my friends and practice your faith through good example and decent living and respect for the common humanity of others please do not stoop to the level of the e b a g t i y f w t o t c protestants who think that the best way to witness is to be strident intrusive loud insulting and overbearingly self righteous the imagery in the song of solomon is a little bit dated get it middle east date palms oh never mind but apparently acceptable on a steaminess level to be accepted as part of the canon from this fact i derive that erotica itself is not incompatible with catholic doctrine is there such a thing as catholic erotica not necessarily a love story between people of that faith but a love story that is not exploitative does not seek redemption through penis size pays proper respect to the dignity of each partner and is still erotic enough to have a place on a s s i would submit that the darknites series of stories qualify also most of the journal entries and rings i and ii i would guess that your aim is to cut down on the pornography and increase the erotica i actually agree with you that nearly all of the i ve got an enormous dick and i shot my wad all over her face stories are crap i count them as noise which makes my take on the signal to noise ration much lower than many other people s since you are one of the few posters here who can actually write decent prose could you write a few stories for us instead of overwhelming us with commentary anyway this is a big subject please add your comments additions and observations sincerely dennis dzkriz ocf berkeley edu thank you jeff foster mtechca maintech com
|
11,057 | talk.religion.misc | re apr god s promise in john in article apr organpipe uug arizona edu brian lpl arizona edu brian ceccarelli wrote jesus gives more reasons in john but one obvious reason why jesus died and as with everything else it has nothing do with his punishment was that he could rise to life again so that we would stop doubting and believe john the fact that jesus rose from the dead is my hope that i too will rise from the dead it is an obvious point do not overlook it without this obvious point i would have no hope and my faith would be vanity glad to hear this just a note osiris mithras and many other cult gods resurrected as well so there s a good chance for all of us to maybe end up in a virtual reality simulator and live forever hurrah sorry this was a joke some sort of one anyway i m the first that connected osiris with a virtual reality personality database time to write a book cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities on the net
|
11,058 | talk.religion.misc | re apr god s promise in john in article qknu innbhv shelley u washington edu christian washed in the blood of the lamb mithraist washed in the blood of the bull if anyone in netland is in the process of devising a new religion do not use the lamb or the bull because they have already been reserved please choose another animal preferably one not on the endangered species list this will be a hard task because most cultures used most animals for blood sacrifices it has to be something related to our current post modernism state hmm what about used computers cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities on the net
|
11,059 | talk.religion.misc | re a kind and loving god in article apr ra royalroads ca mlee post royalroads ca malcolm lee wrote these laws written for the israelites god s chosen people whom god had expressly set apart from the rest of the world the israelites were a direct witness to god s existence to disobey god after knowing that god is real would be an outright denial of god and therefore immediately punishable remember these laws were written for a different time and applied only to god s chosen people but jesus has changed all of that we are living in the age of grace sin is no longer immediately punishable by death there is repentance and there is salvation through our lord jesus christ and not just for a few chosen people salvation is available to everyone jew and gentile alike jews won t agree with you malcolm cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities on the net
|
11,060 | talk.religion.misc | re comments on the koresh transcript in article apr microsoft com iank microsoft com ian kennedy writes stephen wrote correction to my prior post proper citation is isaiah moreover the light of the moon shall be as the light of the sun and the light of the sun shall be sevenfold as the light of seven days in the day that the lord bindeth up the breach of his people and healeth the stroke of their wound so we have to wait for the sun to nova more along the lines of hebrews i reckon see that you refuse not him that speaks for if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth much more shall not we escape if we turn away from him that speaks from heaven whose voice then shook the earth but now he has promised saying yet once more i shake not the earth only but also heaven and this word yet once more signifies the removing of those things that are shaken as of things that are made that those things which cannot be shaken may remain wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved let us have grace whereby we may serve god acceptably with reverence and godly fear for our god is a consuming fire or nd thessalonians and to you who are troubled rest with us when the lord jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not god and that obey not the gospel of our lord jesus christ who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the lord and from the glory of his power when he shall come to be glorified in his saints and to be admired in all them that believe because our testimony among you was believed in that day kinda gives flaming a whole new meaning i reckon the impression i got from talking with livingston was that the coming of the lord power wise is going to be something that those who are unprepared can t handle kinda like overloading a fuse due to guilt somehow it seems to also apply to the entire physical world as we know it lf suggests that god doesn t want that and has sent koresh as a reminder seems that those who have been purified through salvation or that those protected by the seals will be the ones who survive and no i don t have a good idea yet what being shielded by the seals actually involves or how exactly it relates to salvation other than it involves the marriage of the bridegroom and the bride for those of you biblical well versed me personally i m totally dependent on god through christ so if god wants me to understand good if not also good if god wants to save me or dispose of me that s great either way being born in the spirit means being part of the body of christ ephesians so who and what i was matters little what s important is loving god come nova nuke or apocalypse who cares satan might even be able to pull off a pretty convincing fake big deal not worth fearing or worrying about though not before the greater glory of god maybe koresh is right maybe he isn t and it should be interesting to see the new message or prophecy the tour of the bible i ve taken in studying the passages he points to in the text has been most re warding but the test of prophecy is still the fruit it bears which is not yet clear much much more important is charity which by definition is love for god i hope dear reader you ve taken all this as an expression of faith and not a statement of mere fact seems many folks get real upset at reminders j stephen
|
11,061 | talk.religion.misc | re apr god s promise in john on apr gmt eric sieferman observed christian washed in the blood of the lamb mithraist washed in the blood of the bull if anyone in netland is in the process of devising a new religion do not use the lamb or the bull because they have already been reserved please choose another animal preferably one not on the endangered species list how about washed in the blood of barney the dinosaur michael d adams starowl a i rahul net
|
11,062 | talk.religion.misc | re after years can we say that christian m in qksc mr fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com writes in article qkoel fr horus ap mchp sni de frank d s uucp frank o dwyer writes good question my point was that a world with truth is better than a world with falsehood a world in which it were possible to say yes i am holding a jew the truth and you me the jew and the ss guy all sit down to crack open a bottle of whiskey is better than the grim alternatives you present obviously this is not possible and the best alternative seems to be to lie that s because other values are involved such as life now that is just my opinion don t confuse the claim objective morality exists with the claim i have a lock on morals i think that at this point it would actually be quite easy to confuse objective morality with relative morality jon actually jon that is quite true christian people have caused objective morality to look very relative after all that was the point of the original question in this thread i e can we toss out christianity because it is so obviously inconsistent with its own principles if you will bear with me i will attempt to explain this apparent inconsistency from at least one christian s viewpoint if god exists and is the creator of mankind as the bible claims then he has a pretty well defined concept of what makes people tick physically emotionally etc god has an objective morality for us that is to say he has no trouble understanding what is good for or detrimental to the creature he created galatians for we mankind are his workmanship created in christ jesus for good works a morality which god prepared beforehand a well defined design that we might walk in them however contrary to what many people assume including the pharasees of the bible god s morality cannot be completely codified in a list of rules and regulations to some extent every activity of a person s life creates a new situation to which morality must be applied there never could be enough volumes to codify god s objective morality for us throughout history mankind has tried to reduce morality to a list of rules objectivity if you please in the old testament we have both principles and specific rules by the time of jesus most of the principles were obscured by the emphasis men had placed on the rules volumes of additional rules had been made to try to codify the application of the principles we mankind weren t comfortable with the subjectivity of principles for reference see matthew where jesus explains the difference between the law and the principles of the law for example in verses you have heard that the ancients were told you shall not commit murder and whoever commits murder shall be liable to the court but i say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be liable to the court the objective morality of god gets blurred by our inept interpretation of it we christians have made our biggest errors when we have allowed any one person or group of people decide exactly what god intended for us if we christians would stay committed to seeking god s will instead of trying to prove we already had it all figured out we might do a better job of allowing others to find god s objective morality for themselves if jesus is who he said he was is and that s the fundamental question then he is objective morality john nunnally
|
11,063 | talk.religion.misc | federal hearing fact or rumor madalyn murray o hare an atheist who eliminated the use of the bible reading and prayer in public schools years ago is now going to appear before the fcc with a petition to stop the reading of the gospel on the airways of america and she is also campaigning to remove christmas programs songs etc from the public schools if it is true then mail to federal communications commission h street washington dc expressing your opposition to her request reference petition number
|
11,064 | talk.religion.misc | re catholic right pat robertson in kevxu cunyvm bitnet kevxu cunyvm bitnet writes rocco l martino a philadelphia business executive wrote separation of church and state is a false premise that must finally be cast aside and replaced by the true meaning of our constitution blechhhh gimme that ole time inquisition oh yes the organization s national ecclesisatical advisor is catholic politician cardinal john j o connor of new york it figures doesn t it michael l siemon we must know the truth and we must mls ulysses att com love the truth we know and we must or act according to the measure of our love mls panix com thomas merton
|
11,065 | talk.religion.misc | re christian meta ethics in lsjc cinnmc saltillo cs utexas edu turpin cs utexas edu russell turpin writes in article c f gf panix com mls panix com michael siemon writes the issue then is this christian a says behavior such and such is sinful what is christian b supposed to do with such a statement one possibility always exists a may be able to persuade b that the behavior in question does exhibit a failure in loving god or neighbor michael modern liberal that he is reads a fairly benign meaning into this word he then constructs his religious beliefs around this understanding reading other scripture in the context of these commandments with love benignly understood i regard love as no more or less benign than any other christian does you are merely expressing approval of the consequences i find therein which says more about our politics and cultural trappings than about my or any religion love is a highly ambiguous word of which christians can write both the gentle words paul uses of it in corinthians in a passage that even the conservatives will quote at you and the words of t s eliot in his pentacost hymn love is the unfamiliar name that wove the intolerable shirt of flame this is in any case rather to the side of what i was attempting to raise in my note as will become more evident below as a non believer i find michael s christianity kinder and gentler blechhh i think you are misreading me rather seriously though given my principle that one cannot force one s own notion of sin on another and my unshakeable disestablishmentarianism russel turpin and others believers and unbelievers alike are under no threat of my legislating my own understanding of christian love if i take him at his word he cannot condemn the inquisitors because they were also following these commandments as they understood them if you misread i can do and have repeatedly done a complete bill of accusation against the inquisition by exhibiting in as thorough a form as anyone might want a demonstration of the harm it has done to human beings in the first place and to respect for let alone love of god in near succession please go back to my quoted words above the possibility that always exists is that i or to revert to proper time sequence my predecessors over the last several centuries could persuade christian b of my case that the inquisition does indeed constitute an egregious violation of the law of love i must also note that the majority of christians have been so persuaded by christian argumentation as well as by secular both christian and non christian prohibitions what mr turpin alludes to is a trickier point a i demonstrate the human pain and violation of love involved in the inquisition b the inquisitor responds that mother church must however painful this seems discipline her children for their own good in this case the salvation of their souls or if the tortured heretic will not recant than by bad example deterring others from the same loss of soul a i point out that this justification of a failure in love depends on a highly speculative construal of texts and of philosophical assertions that are quite undemonstrable b burns me at the stake my rhetoric has failed but the point i am making is sustained what is going on here has a lot to do with cultural baggage in this case the baggage includes a nearly universal and absolutely secular belief that an accused person must prove innocence and that testimony is most believable if taken under torture the elimination of inqisitorial practice in those places where it has been eliminated or at least greatly reduced has very little if anything to do with the discussion of sin in the exchange between a and b mr turpin is pointing out that if i am a versus the grand inquisitor s b then my persuasion is not very likely to work i know this and in what ever personal agony i consign the issue to god and my ghostly defense attorney so one possibility fails in this case as it will fail in may others at the other extreme the persuasion will succeed when it properly should not if it entails mistaken assumptions i share with the inquisitor and that is potentially an even more troubling case in that many of the victims of inquisition will have accepted that they were in fact sinful in such random cases as they may actually have been guilty of charges brought against them the point is that the persuasion breaks down when the parties do not share enough to agree on all the cultural baggage and given the main thrust of the inquisition against heresy it is bound to break down in precisely the worst cases the conservative i don t think that is the right word btw will take refuge in what i attribute to b above that he is justified in causing harm because he thinks that works to a greater good but this is a violent and extravagant refusal to follow the gospel as if one s theories about sin entitled one to cast aside jesus words on dealing with sinners cf matthew ff i am a radical christian only in that i take the gospel seriously or for that matter what does it mean to love one s fellow man and what is the right thing and how does one go about loving god well the whole point of making these the base commandments is that they aren t reducible to rules a set of rules is a moral code or a law code or an algorithm for acting such things can be very helpful to individuals or societies but not if they are used instead of a personal involvement in and responsibility for one s actions the great commandment is more than anything else a call to act as if you were god and accepting ultimate responsibility in your every action a demand that i like most would rather not hear but it keeps popping up nonetheless along with the reassurance that it is more important that i be open to trying this than succeeding at it conservatives may twist this act as if you were god to mean lay down rules for other people and be as nasty to them as possible if they don t keep your rules they are so insistent and obvious about this that they have convinced a lot of people who rightly reject the whole concept that such idiocy is how god acts that after all is the standard accusation against god by the atheists here and elsewhere that the conservatives have confused their manipulative hoop jumping notions of coercing other people with the nature of god is almost the entire content of standard american atheism and i quite agree with it on this point ethical systems are not differentiated by the nice sounding goo up front much of which sounds pretty much the same but by the specific acts procedures and arguments that they recommend and different bodies of christians have from the beginning urged different ethical systems or in some cases none as a result it is bizarre to identify any one of these systems however popular or infamous with christianity christianity does not have a torah it does not have a qu ran specifically christian scripture has very little if anything in the way of commandments so little that the christians who desperately want commandments go mining for them with almost no support and thus almost no obvious limitation for their efforts the one single thing in the gospels which jesus specifically gives as a commandment to us is love one another i will be expanding on this point in a reply to paul hudson that i hope to get to in a day or so it is quite true that some christians infer lots of commandments from the nt i ll point out what has to be going on in these inferences and why there is a huge amount of cultural baggage involved you are quite right that this is goo if one is looking for an ethical system but why should anyone be looking for an ethical system since our society is eager to hand us one or more no matter what we do it may be that we need a principle for the critique of ethical systems in which case i will profer the agapate allelou once again i am glad that a few christians such as michael find a benign meaning for the goo and then interpret the usually ugly specifics in a more constructive fashion on the other hand i do think that this tells us more about michael and christians like him that it tells us about christianity i think you are begging the question why don t i and the myriads of other christians like me tell you something about christianity nor is this very new in christianity you might want to look up the origins and fundamental doctrines of the quakers from the th century onwards and they are not at all the first to understand the gospel in a manner that is congenial to my case michael l siemon i say you are gods sons of the mls panix com most high all of you nevertheless or you shall die like men and fall mls ulysses att com like any prince psalm
|
11,066 | talk.religion.misc | apr god s promise in psalm i will instruct thee and teach thee in the way which thou shalt go i will guide thee with mine eye psalm
|
11,067 | talk.religion.misc | re judas crucifixion tyre etc david joslin joslin pogo isp pitt edu wrote af yfn ysu edu frank decenso jr writes based on the amount of e mail from fellow christians who have read the posts and told me i was wasting my time with butler and joslin i told them i wasn t doing it for db or dj but for other christians they have told me that db s and dj s arguments won t convince most bible studying christians so i have reevaluated my purpose here and it s also contributed to my decision so most bible studying christians won t be convinced by my arguments and this is supposed to be a good thing i presume where does this most bible studying christians think as frank does come from and what implied good are you doing for other christians at least some of what you are teaching has been demonstrated as wrong has it ever occured to you that you may be doing more harm than good to your fellow christians btw i used to think like frank does i went to a fundamentalist church for a while i didn t start to really think about what they were saying until i noticed a god s science phamphlet there i read it and noticed that the authors of it knew virtually nothing about science i asked church members some questions about theories from the phamphlet and got only deceptive answers i began to notice a very similar style of answers for theological questions as well the only conclusion i could reach was that these peoples beliefs about the bible were about as valid as their beliefs in their god s science phamphlet if there are still people out there who think that my purpose here is to attack the bible an accusation frank once made i would point out that i have also criticized people who have posted bible contradictions that turn out to be silly out of context or easily and legitimately reconciled i m not attacking the bible but intellectual dishonesty about the bible from either side if one of the primary purposes of christians is to seek out truth how can people condemn you for doing this dale skiba
|
11,068 | talk.religion.misc | lds rick s reply rick anderson replied to my letter with ra in article c elp l c acsu buffalo edu ra psyrobtw ubvmsb cc buffalo edu robert weiss says ra ra well jason it s heretical in a few ways the first point is that ra this equates lucifer and jesus as being the same type of being ra however lucifer is a created being thou wast perfect in thy ra ways from the day that thou wast created till iniquity was found in ra thee ezekiel while jesus is uncreated and the creator of ra all things in the beginning was the word and the word was with ra god and the word was god the same was in the beginning with god ra all things were made by him and without him was not any thing made ra that was made john and he is before all things and by ra him all things consist colossians ra ra your inference from the ezekiel and john passages that lucifer was ra created and that jesus was not depends on a particular interpetation of ra the word create one with which many christians may not agree ra granted the mormon belief that all of god s children including christ ra and lucifer are eternally existent intelligences which were organized ra into spirit children by god the term creation can apply equally well ra to both of those passages just briefly on something that you mentioned in passing you refer to differing interpretations of create and say that many christians may not agree so what that is really irrelevant we do not base our faith on how many people think one way or another do we the bottom line is truth regardless of popularity of opinions also i find it rather strange that in trying to persuade that created and eternally existent are equivalent you say granted the mormon belief you can t grant your conclusion and then expect the point to have been addressed in order to reply to the issue you have to address and answer the point that was raised and not just jump to the conclusion that you grant the bible states that lucifer was created the bible states that jesus is the creator of all the contradiction that we have is that the lds belief is that jesus and lucifer were the same ra your point that we all are brothers of jesus and lucifer is also ra heretical since we are not innately brothers and sisters of christ ra we are adopted for ye have not received the spirit of bondage ra again to fear but ye have received the spirit of adoption whereby ra we cry abba father romans and not the natural children ra of god it is only through faith that we even enter the family of ra god for ye are all the children of god by faith in christ jesus ra galatians and it is only through the manifestation of this ra faith in receiving jesus that we are become the sons of god but ra as many as received him to them gave he power to become the sons of ra god even to them that believe on his name which were born not ra of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man but ra of god john ra ra has it occured to you robert that being born of someone or being ra of that person or person s family may be a symbolic term in the new ra testament mormons believe that we are adopted into the house of ra israel through baptism and faith in christ although some have expressed ra belief that this does evince a physical change in our bodies the mormon belief is that all are children of god literally there is nothing symbolic about it this however contradicts what the bible says the bible teaches that not everyone is a child of god the field is the world the good seed are the children of the kingdom but the tares are the children of the wicked one matthew i speak that which i have seen with my father and ye do that which ye have seen with your father john ye do the deeds of your father then said they to him we be not born of fornication we have one father even god jesus said unto them if god were your father ye would love me for i proceeded forth and came from god neither came i of myself but he sent me why do ye not understand my speech even because ye cannot hear my word ye are of your father the devil and the lusts of your father ye will do he was a murderer from the beginning and abode not in the truth because there is no truth in him when he speaketh a lie he speaketh of his own for he is a liar and the father of it john and said o full of all subtilty and all mischief thou child of the devil thou enemy of all righteousness wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the lord acts wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world according to the prince of the power of the air the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience ephesians in this the children of god are manifest and the children of the devil whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of god neither he that loveth not his brother john one becomes a child of god but as many as received him to them gave he power to become the sons of god even to them that believe on his name john behold what manner of love the father hath bestowed upon us that we should be called the sons of god therefore the world knoweth us not because it knew him not beloved now are we the sons of god and it doth not yet appear what we shall be but we know that when he shall appear we shall be like him for we shall see him as he is john when he is born again through faith in jesus christ which were born not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man but of god john having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by jesus christ to himself according to the good pleasure of his will ephesians of his own will begat he us with the word of truth that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures james for as many as are led by the spirit of god they are the sons of god for ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear but ye have received the spirit of adoption whereby we cry abba father the spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit that we are the children of god romans beloved let us love one another for love is of god and every one that loveth is born of god and knoweth god john whosoever believeth that jesus is the christ is born of god and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him john for ye are all the children of god by faith in christ jesus galatians ra we are told that and this is life eternal that they might know ra thee the only true god and jesus christ whom thou hast sent ra john life eternal is to know the only true god yet the ra doctrines of the lds that i have mentioned portray a vastly ra different jesus a jesus that cannot be reconciled with the jesus of ra the bible they are so far removed from each other that to proclaim ra one as being true denies the other from being true according to the ra bible eternal life is dependent on knowing the only true god and ra not the construct of imagination ra ra ra robert with all due respect who died and left you chief arbiter of ra correct biblical interpretation i don t mean to be snotty about this ra but the fact is that the bible is so differently interpreted by different ra groups of biblical scholars what do you think of the jehovah s ra witnesses for example that to make reference to the jesus of the ra bible is simply ridiculous whose jesus of the bible do you mean this is really a red herring it doesn t address any issue raised but rather it seeks to obfuscate the fact that some groups try to read something into the bible doesn t change what the bible teaches for example the fact that the jehovah s witnesses deny the deity of christ does not alter what the bible teaches looking for that blessed hope and the glorious appearing of the great god and our saviour jesus christ titus simon peter a servant and an apostle of jesus christ to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of god and our saviour jesus christ peter on the deity of christ we first look to the bible to see what it teaches to discount or not even address what the bible teaches because there are some groups that have differing views is self defeating to see what the bible teaches you have to look at the bible ra our lord s mortality was essential to his own salvation the ra promised messiah p he had to work out his own salvation by ra doing the will of the father in all things ibid p he had ra to be baptized to gain admission to the celestial kingdom mormon ra doctrine p ra ra welcome to the wonderful world of mormon paradoctrine robert the ra above books are by the late bruce r mcconkie a former general authority ra of the lds church those books were not published by the church nor do ra they constitute offical doctrine they consist of his opinions now ra does that mean that what he says is not true not at all i ll have to ra think about the idea of christ s personal salvation before i come to any ra conclusions myself the conclusions i come to may seem heretical to ra you but i m prepared to accept that i find this rather curious when i mentioned that the mormon belief is that jesus needed to be saved i put forward some quotes from the late apostle bruce mcconkie the curious part is that no one addressed the issue of jesus needing to be saved rick comes the closest with his i have my own conclusions to addressing the point most of the other replies have instead hop scotched to the issue of bruce mcconkie and whether his views were official doctrine i don t think that it matters if mcconkie s views were canon that is not the issue were mcconkie s writings indicative of mormon belief on this subject is the real issue the indication from rick is that they may certainly be robert weiss psyrobtw ubvms cc buffalo edu
|
11,069 | talk.religion.misc | oto the ancient order of oriental templars e v after the glorious eve of taxation do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law the word of sin is restriction to all whom it may concern it is known only to a few that there exists an external visible organization of such men and women who having themselves found the path to real self knowledge and who having travelled the burning sands are willing to give the benefit of their experience and to act as spiritual guides to those who are willing to be guided while numberless societies associations orders groups etc have been founded during the last thirty years in all parts of the civilised world all following some line of occult study yet there is but one ancient organization of genuine mystics which shows the seeker after truth a royal road to discover the lost mysteries of antiquity and to the unveiling of the one hermetic truth this organization is known at the present time as the ancient order of oriental templars ordo templi orientis otherwise the hermetic brotherhood of light it is a modern school of magic and like the ancient schools of magic it derived its knowledge from the east this knowledge was never its possessors sic it was recorded in symbol parable and allegory requiring a key for its interpretation this key can be placed within the reach of all those who apply for membership to the oriental templars o t o the o t o is a body of initiates in whose hands are concentrated the secret knowledge of all oriental orders and of all existing masonic degrees the o t o although an academia masonica is not a masonic body so far as the craft degrees are concerned in the sense in which that expression is usually understood in england and therefore in no way conflicts with or infringes the just priveleges of the united lodge of england english master masons in good standing by arrangement on affiliation are admitted at reduced charges members of the ix degree become part proprietors of the estates and goods of the order for further information see the publications of the o t o and the synopsis of the degrees of the o t o constitution of the ancient order of oriental templars ordo templi orientis by frater superior merlin peregrinus x degree past grand master albert karl theodor reuss taken from equinox iii edited by frater superior rex summus sanctissimus united states caliph of ordo templi orientis invoke me under my stars love is the law love under will i am i frater i nigris dclxvi cccxxxiii
|
11,070 | talk.religion.misc | re oto the ancient order of oriental templars in article cup portal com thyagi cup portal com thyagi morgoth nagasiva writes to all whom it may concern it is known only to a few that there exists an external visible organization of such men and women who having themselves found the path to real self knowledge and who having travelled the burning sands are willing to give the benefit of their experience and to act as spiritual guides to those who are willing to be guided while numberless societies associations orders groups etc have been founded during the last thirty years in all parts of the civilised world all following some line of occult study yet there is but one ancient organization of genuine mystics which shows the seeker after truth a royal road to discover the lost mysteries of antiquity and to the unveiling of the one hermetic truth this organization is known at the present time as the ancient order of oriental templars ordo templi orientis otherwise the hermetic brotherhood of light up to this point i was kinda hoping that this was a joke still it would make a great premise for a bad syndicated tv show these are the adventures of the oriental templars dedicated to truth justice and good karma dramatic music in the background no doubt i ve just horribly offended someone mike swaim whenever the soft drink machine needs to be swaim owlnet rice edu restocked rather than getting angry disclamer i lie meditate on the impermanence of all things and the emptiness of coke
|
11,071 | talk.religion.misc | bhagavad gita text trai gunya visaya veda nistrai gunyo bhavarjuna nirdvandvo nitya sattva stho niryoga ksema atmavan trai gunya pertaining to the three modes of material nature visayah on the subject matter vedah vedic literatures nistrai gunyah transcendental to the three modes of material nature bhava be arjuna o arjuna nirdvandvah without duality nitya sattva sthah in a pure state of spiritual existence niryoga ksemah free from ideas of gain and protection atma van established in the self translation the vedas deal mainly with the subject of the three modes of material nature o arjuna become transcendental to these three modes be free from all dualities and from all anxieties for gain and safety and be established in the self purport all material activities involve actions and reactions in the three modes of material nature they are meant for fruitive results which cause bondage in the material world the vedas deal mostly with fruitive activities to gradually elevate the general public from the field of sense gratification to a position on the transcendental plane arjuna as a student and friend of lord krsna is advised to raise himself to the transcendental position of vedanta philosophy where in the beginning there is brahma jijnasa or questions on the supreme transcendence all the living entities who are in the material world are struggling very hard for existence for them the lord after creation of the material world gave the vedic wisdom advising how to live and get rid of the material entanglement when the activities for sense gratification namely the karma kanda chapter are finished then the chance for spiritual realization is offered in the form of the upanisads which are part of different vedas as the bhagavad gita is a part of the fifth veda namely the mahabharata the upanisads mark the beginning of transcendental life as long as the material body exists there are actions and reactions in the material modes one has to learn tolerance in the face of dualities such as happiness and distress or cold and warmth and by tolerating such dualities become free from anxieties regarding gain and loss this transcendental position is achieved in full krsna consciousness when one is fully dependent on the good will of krsna bhagavad gita as it is books of a c bhaktivedanta swami don t forget to chant hare krishna hare krishna krishna krishna hare hare hare rama hare rama rama rama hare hare kalki s infoline bbs aiken south carolina usa system kalki lakes trenton sc us
|
11,072 | talk.religion.misc | re oto the ancient order of oriental templars in a previous article thyagi cup portal com thyagi morgoth nagasiva says it is known only to a few that there exists an external visible organization of such men and women who having themselves found the path to real self knowledge and who having travelled the burning sands are willing to give the benefit of their experience and to act as spiritual guides to those who are willing to be guided while numberless societies associations orders groups etc have been founded during the last thirty years in all parts of the civilised world all following some line of occult study yet there is but one ancient organization of genuine mystics up to that point i thought you were talking about the rosicrucian order no offense intended tony
|
11,073 | talk.religion.misc | re part and part re homosexuality long time no see andreas andreas siperian sirri siberian stint no itu love evolution tuusniemi siis imein suut
|
11,074 | talk.religion.misc | re is it good that jesus died brian kendig bskendig netcom com wrote can you please point to something anything that proves to me that the universe cannot possibly be explained without accepting as a fact the existence of a god in precisely the way your holy book describes can you please convince me that your religion is more than a very cleverly constructed fable and that it does indeed have some bearing on my own personal day to day life would you consider the word of an eye witness peter to testify to the events surrounding jesus life pe we did not follow cleverly invented stories when we told you about the power and coming of our lord jesus christ but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty pe for he received honor and glory from god the father when the voice came to him from the majestic glory saying this is my son whom i love with him i am well pleased pe we ourselves heard this voice that came from heaven when we were with him on the sacred mountain pe and we have the word of the prophets made more certain and you will do well to pay attention to it as to a light shining in a dark place until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts this is a documented testimony perhaps further research on your part is warranted before making more statements there is considerably more to study in peters two books of testimony regarding the messiah it is well worth your time mr brian jim burrill
|
11,075 | talk.religion.misc | re davidians and compassion in article sandvik sandvik kent apple com sandvik newton apple com kent sandvik writes so we have this highly christian religious order that put fire on their house killing most of the people inside i would hardly consider the bd s to be christian they were acting in direct contradiction to scripture jesus second coming is something that everyone will know of jesus also predicted that there will be false messiahs who will use his name his prophecy has been fulfilled i m not that annoyed about the adults they knew supposedly what they were doing and it s their own actions what i mostly are angry about is the fact that the people inside including mothers let the children suffer and die during awful conditions i agree with you there if this is considered religious following to the end i m proud that i don t follow such fanatical and non compassionate religions me too i have already given my life to god if god tells me to lay down my life it will be to save another life you might want to die for whatever purpose but please spare the innocent young ones that has nothing to do with this all i have a hard time just now understanding that christianity knows about the word compassion christians do you think the actions today would produce a good picture of your religion do you judge all christians by the acts of those who would call themselves christian and yet are not the bd s contradicted scripture in their actions they were not christian simple as that perhaps you have read too much into what the media has portrayed ask any true believing christian and you will find that they will deny any association with the bd s even the th day adventists have denied any further ties with this cult which was what they were do you judge all muslims by the acts committed by saddam hussein a supposedly devout muslim i don t saddam is just a dictator using the religious beliefs of his people to further his own ends god be with you malcolm lee kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities on the net
|
11,076 | talk.religion.misc | re a kind and loving god in article sandvik sandvik kent apple com sandvik newton apple com kent sandvik writes in article apr ra royalroads ca mlee post royalroads ca malcolm lee wrote it is true what you stated above jesus saving grace is available to everyone not just jews in other words everyone can have salvation but not everyone will this option is now open to people other than just jews of course if the jews don t accept the deity of christ i would hardly expect them to accept anything that christ said but i don t feel any animosity towards them even though they persecuted jesus and his disciples and eventually crucified him i bear them no ill will if anything i feel pity for them jesus had to die to pay the price for our sins and so the jews were merely fulfilling prophesy jesus knew he had to die even before he began his ministry that demonstrates the great depth of his love for us jesus certainly demonstrated the great depth of his love for the children who died today at the davidian complex sorry but the events today made me even more negative concering organized religion i understand and sympathize with your pain what happened in waco was a very sad tradgedy don t take it out on us christians though the branch davidians were not an organized religion they were a cult led by a ego maniac cult leader the christian faith stands only on the shoulders of one man the lord of lords and king of kings jesus christ btw david koresh was not jesus christ as he claimed god be with you malcolm lee cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities on the net
|
11,077 | talk.religion.misc | re davidians and compassion in article sandvik sandvik kent apple com sandvik newton apple com kent sandvik writes in article apr edt neat cs toronto edu cbo cs toronto edu calvin bruce ostrum wrote in article sandvik sandvik kent apple com sandvik newton apple com kent sandvik writes i have a hard time just now understanding that christianity knows about the word compassion christians do you think the actions today would produce a good picture of your religion clearly all people considering themselves christians are all alike and support one another in everything they do in particular it follows that they certainly will support all the actions of any other person calling himself a christian not i see there are christians and there are christians no wonder the christian world is in shambles you can t even agree who is a rightful one and a wrong one if one does not follow the teachings of christ he is not christian too easy please i would like to hear your comments about a supposed christian leader that makes sure that children are burnt to death would you say all muslims are like saddam hussein i wouldn t make such a blanket judgement why do you kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities on the net
|
11,078 | talk.religion.misc | re a kind and loving god in article r ejoinnjfj owl csrv uidaho edu lanph crow csrv uidaho edu rob lanphier writes malcolm lee mlee post royalroads ca wrote what bothers me most is why people who have no religious affiliation continue to persecute jews why this hatred of jews the majority of people who persecute jews are not christians i can t speak for all christians and there are bound to be a few who are on the anti semitism bandwagon do you even have anecdotal evidence to back this up the most blatent persecution of the jews in history was of course done by the nazis before and during world war ii a predominately lutheran crowd sure many muslims in the middle east consider the israelites to be a thorn in their side but the most of the modern persecution of jews has been at the hands of christians at least as far as i m aware rob lanphier lanph uidaho edu do you consider neo nazis and white supremists to be christian i d hardly classify them as christian do they follow the teachings of christ love one another love your neighbour as yourself love your enemies is jesus christ their lord and saviour by the persecution of jews they are violating all the precepts of what christ died for they are in direct violation of the teachings of christ even jesus who was crucified by the jewish leaders of that time loved his enemies by asking the father for forgiveness of their sins i am a christian and i bear no animosity towards jews or any one else the enemy is satan not our fellow man god be with you malcolm lee
|
11,079 | talk.religion.misc | re biblical backing of koresh s tape cites enclosed in article apr utarlg uta edu b zaw utarlg uta edu stephen writes for those who think david koresh didn t have a solid structure or sound biblical backing for his hour long tape broadcast i don t think anyone really cares about the solid structure of his sermon it s the deaths he s responsible for that concern most people i ve enclosed a partial list of the sources he cites or quotes he exactly used as a christian sermon it s pretty good if not inspired though i differ in part on some of his conclusions the argument he presents is well backed which is why it s taken me this long to work through still ongoing if you thought it was rambling that says far more about you than it does koresh there is a very definite relationship between the you ve made me curious what does this say about me first seal in revelation the entirety of psalms and the most of revelation which demonstrated one of his major points about how the writings in the prophets including david and in the psalms and in revelation are all telling the same story when you understand how they re related ie have the key the largely explain each other charles manson used revelation as well do we see a pattern here i wonder of koresh liked the beatles the sequence following is keyed to the koresh tape should you care to check it out you can almost see the note cards he used when doing the analysis long list of biblical references which impressed me tremendously but were deleted in the interests of common sense koresh was a nut okay just because he found ways for the bible to backup his rantings does not make him any less of a kook seems to me koresh is yet another messenger that got killed for the message he carried i ll type this very slowly so that you can understand he either set the fire himself or told his followers to do so don t make him out to be a martyr he did not get killed he killed himself in the mean time we sure learned a lot about evil and corruption are you surprised things have gotten that rotten the evil was inside the compound all that thou shalt not kill stuff oh yeah one last point for the believers philippian for the rest of us could you please post the text
|
11,080 | talk.religion.misc | re freemasonry and the southern baptist convention in article qv l oj usenet ins cwru edu ch cleveland freenet edu tony alicea writes with the southern baptist convention convening this june to consider the charges that freemasonry is incompatible with christianity i thought the following quotes by mr james holly the anti masonic flag carrier would amuse you all the following passages are exact quotes from the southern baptist convention and freemasonry by james l holly m d president of mission and ministry to men inc n th st beaumont tx much drivel deleted jesus christ never commanded toleration as a motive for his disciples and toleration is the antithesis of the christian message page the central dynamic of the freemason drive for world unity through fraternity liberty and equality is toleration this is seen in the writings of the great writers of freemasonry page more drivel deleted i hope you all had a good laugh i know i did g tony a laugh tony this religeous bigot scares the shit out of me and that any one bothers to listen to him causes me to have grave doubts about the future of just about anything shades of the branch davidians jim jones and charlie manson uncle wolf member highland lodge f am grand lodge of california babtized a southern babtist and one who has beliefs beyond the teachings of either
|
11,081 | talk.religion.misc | re rosicrucian order s in a previous article cdcolvin rahul net christopher d colvin says i guess the san jose mercury news is wrong then no it is old you said amorc is not was nothing personal ok good maybe you didn t know that it s over by now there is no more pending legal actions from no where period so yes there was a situation and it has been resolved by both parties as long as humans handle anything it is subjected to breaking btw gary l stewart has a p o box in tx calling his org arc ancient rosae crucis i guess he couldn t take the mo from amorc tony
|
11,082 | talk.religion.misc | re clarification of personal position in article c muiw aqc mailer cc fsu edu dlecoint garnet acns fsu edu darius lecointe writes if it were a sin to violate sunday no one could ever be forgiven for that for jesus never kept sunday holy he only recognized one day of the seven as holy jesus also recognized other holy days like the passover acts says that no more should be layed on the gentiles than that which is necessary the sabbath is not in the list nor do any of the epistles instruct people to keep the th day while christians were living among people who did not keep the th day it looks like that would have been a problem instead we have scriptures telling us that all days can be esteemed alike romans and that no man should judge us in regard to what kind of food we eat jewish holy days we keep or in regard to the sabbath col the question is on what authority do we proclaim that the requirements of the fourth commandment are no longer relevant to modern christians i don t think that the sabbath or any other command of the law is totally irrelevant to modern christians but what about collosions where it says that we are not to be judged in regard to the keeping of the sabbath link hudson
|
11,083 | talk.religion.misc | re davidians and compassion is there evidence independent of the fbi that indicates that the branch davidians set the fire what have the survivors said did the press see anything there is unfortunately precedent for the u s government saving children by roasting them alive there is precedent for religious self imolation as well i still wonder why the government couldn t just leave them alone
|
11,084 | talk.religion.misc | re rosicrucian order s in a previous article cdcolvin rahul net christopher d colvin says i worked at amorc when i was in hs ok so you were a naive teen he hs lewis dates back to the s wrong and if you do your homework but he was born last century right now amorc is embroiled in some internal political turmoil no it isn t
|
11,085 | talk.religion.misc | re freemasonry and the southern baptist convention in a previous article jluther cs umr edu john w luther says john it not good netiquette to quote a complete article nothing personal please i also appreciate your being amused by such determined ignorance without taking anything away from your mirth i want to say that these views sadden me this views sadden me too don t think that i don t care sorry if it seemed different it is serious stuff but i have a sick sense of humor though some say tolerance tony
|
11,086 | talk.religion.misc | re is it good that jesus died jburrill boi hp com jim burrill writes brian kendig bskendig netcom com wrote can you please point to something anything that proves to me that the universe cannot possibly be explained without accepting as a fact the existence of a god in precisely the way your holy book describes can you please convince me that your religion is more than a very cleverly constructed fable and that it does indeed have some bearing on my own personal day to day life would you consider the word of an eye witness peter to testify to the events surrounding jesus life no there are two problems here peter died two millenia ago the original letters he wrote have long since decayed into dust if he were alive today and i could question him then this might lend credibility to your claims but probably not much because after all i ve heard people claim with all sincerity that they ve spoken with elvis recently but after his death peter s writings were transcribed by monks for centuries and i find it hard to believe that one of them somewhere didn t decide to change the wording of something to make it in his opinion a little easier to understand even if peter did witness the miracles of jesus two millenia ago that doesn t mean that your deity is what the bible says it is god might just be satan trying to convince everyone that he s a nice guy or even that your deity is still alive and active in the world today nice try but it just isn t enough to convince me especially since your wild claims about your deity seem to fly in the face of the way i ve observed the world to work please find something more compelling brian kendig je ne suis fait comme aucun bskendig netcom com de ceux que j ai vus j ose croire n etre fait comme aucun de ceux qui existent the meaning of life si je ne vaux pas mieux au moins je suis autre is that it ends rousseau
|
11,087 | talk.religion.misc | re the list of biblical contradictions critus
|
11,088 | talk.religion.misc | re merlin mithras and magick in article pegasus fp dialin uoregon edu pegasus aaa uoregon edu laurieewbrandt writes lets add to those percentages for the orphaic docterians brought to the group by paul saul who was a high ranking initiate on the development of orphaic mysteries see jane harrisons prolegomena to the study of greek religion cambridge u press and you can easly draw your own conclusions perhaps you can quote just a bit of her argument josh
|
11,089 | talk.religion.misc | re oto the ancient order of oriental templars in a previous article shades sorinc cutler com darrin a hyrup says they thelema lodge don t have an internet address but they do have a cis address which can be reached via uucp internet it is so i guess that would be cis com or something like that compuserve com tony
|
11,090 | talk.religion.misc | re is it good that jesus died brian lpl arizona edu brian ceccarelli writes they do not want to know it or be exposed to light because their own evil deeds will be uncovered and so by their own choice they will remain in darkness sort of like bugs under a rock however some people but not many will not like the darkness sometimes it gets too cold and too dark to be comfortable these people will crawl out from under the rock and although blinded at first will get accustomed to the light and enjoy its warm and after a while by virtue of the light they will see the depths of their own shortcomings and how to correct them and also they will see that there is much much more to this world than just the narrow little experiences under the rock they will discover that life under a rock was incredibly yukky and that life with the light of the world is great so great that they will want to tell all their friends about it and i maintain some people do not want to enter into the light and the knowledge that they alone are their own masters because they fear it they are too afraid of having to face the world on their own terms and so by their own choice they will remain in darkness sort of like bugs under a rock however some people but not many will not like the darkness sometimes it gets too cold and too dark to be comfortable these people will crawl out from under the rock and although blinded at first will get accustomed to the light and enjoy its warmth and after a while now that they can see things for what they really are they will also see the heights which they can reach and the places they can go and they will learn to choose their own paths through the world and they will learn from their mistakes and revel in their successes they will see that there is much much more to the world than just the narrow experiences under the rock they will discover that life under a rock was incredibly yucky and that life on their own terms is great so great that they will want to tell everyone else about it do you see my point i think you re the one under the rock and i m getting a great tan out here in the sunlight my life has improved immesurably since i abandoned theism come and join me it will be a difficult trip at first until you build up your muscles for the long hike but it s well worth it not all people hate light kent we all have an adversion to it to some extent but brian kendig who has been replying to this thread certainly likes darkness brian k enjoys stating false concepts and false pressumptions about the god of the bible without checking his own presumptions he compares my god with odin or zeus look you just practically equated odin and zeus they re as much different as your god is from them don t you see i m not going to accept anything that i can t witness with my own eyes or experience with my own senses especially not something as mega powerful as what you re trying to get me to accept surely if you believe in it this strongly you must have a good reason to don t you withough checking his own presumption he thinks hell is the equivalent of non existence when did i say that i say that i would rather cease existing instead of being subject to the whims of a deity but that if the deity decided to toss me into the fiery pits because of who i am then so be it do you enjoy darkness most people will honestly admit yes most people are fond of their sexual sins their hording of money their selfishness and not to mention their biblical ignorance nope most people are christian most people are fond of feeling that they are imperfect of believing that the world is an undesirable place of reciting magical mystical prayers to make the world nice and holy again of doing just as their priests tell them like good little sheep you enjoy darkness and you re proud of it you may know the bible well but have you read any of the koran or zen writings or hare krishna literature if you haven t then how can you say you have an open mind sin is fun let s admit it but a life of sin leads to trouble and death in this life and hell in the next nope you make decisions enjoy your successes and accept your failures then you die if you are content with the life you ve led as you reflect back on it in your final moments then you ve led a good life come out from under the rock please do for god so loved the world that he gave his one and only son that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life i m sorry i don t feel that sacrificing jesus was something any god i d worship would do unless the sacrifice was only temporary in which case it s not really all that important forget the bible for a minute forget quoting verses forget about who said what about this or that show me picture just you and me and a wide open hilltop and convince me that you re right brian kendig je ne suis fait comme aucun bskendig netcom com de ceux que j ai vus j ose croire n etre fait comme aucun de ceux qui existent the meaning of life si je ne vaux pas mieux au moins je suis autre is that it ends rousseau
|
11,091 | talk.religion.misc | re apr god s promise in john brian lpl arizona edu brian ceccarelli writes consider your mother merlyn you know your mother what would you think of me if i asserted that your mother is feet tall murdered your father and sexually abused you when you were a kid i would just go fetch my parents and show them to you and thereby prove quite definitively that my mother is not named merlyn she is not nine feet tall and my father is quite alive then i would assert quite simply that your deity does not exist and wait for a similar demonstration from you brian kendig je ne suis fait comme aucun bskendig netcom com de ceux que j ai vus j ose croire n etre fait comme aucun de ceux qui existent the meaning of life si je ne vaux pas mieux au moins je suis autre is that it ends rousseau
|
11,092 | talk.religion.misc | re rosicrucian order s in article qvibv b usenet ins cwru edu ch cleveland freenet edu tony alicea writes in a previous article cdcolvin rahul net christopher d colvin says i worked at amorc when i was in hs ok so you were a naive teen he hs lewis dates back to the s wrong and if you do your homework but he was born last century right now amorc is embroiled in some internal political turmoil no it isn t i guess the san jose mercury news is wrong then and if so why is the da involved christopher d colvin cdcolvin rahul net
|
11,093 | talk.religion.misc | re new newsgroup soc religion islam ahmadiyya mr esam abdel rahem writes i urge you all to vote no to the formation of the news group ahmadya islam if they want to have their own group the word islam shouldnot be attached to the name of such group we don t consider them as muslims dr tahir ijaz comments on esam abdel rahem s statement but the problem is we consider ourself to be muslims even though you don t luckily faith is determined by what one believes and is a personal matter you cannot declare the faith of someone else mr jawad ali then comments on tahir ijaz s statement you are not considering the consequences of your argument the converse would be that the problem is that muslims dont consider ahmadies to be muslims who one considers to be one s co believer is also a personal matter it would be just as wrong to tell the muslims who should be included in their self defination the argument by jawad ali is funny he writes the converse would be that the problem is that muslims dont consider ahmadies to be muslims which is a wrong statement in the light of dr ijaz s statement the above statement should be corrected is that some non ahmadi muslims don t consider ahmadi muslims as muslims so the problem does not get solved who is a muslims and who is not humans cannot decide humans may not declare others faiths its that simple i don t understand why the mere use of the word islam is becomming such a big issue i have seen numorous postings on the net on this subject and all they say no no you cannot use islam as the name of your newsgroup i haven t seen a single posting stating what right do they have in declaring the name of other s faiths who gives them this authority quran or hadith or something else i want to know this just a small reminder to all my muslim brothers did ever the holy prophet of islam muhammad pbuh say to anyone who called himself a muslim no you are not a muslim never i challenge all my muslim brothers to produce a single such evidence from the history of islam hence if the prophet muhammad could never do that to anyone how could the muslims mullahs or even governments of today do it to anyone do you consider yourself above the holy prophet muhammad pbuh sincerely nabeel note love for all views abeel ana hatred for none are e mail rana rintintin colorado edu mine
|
11,094 | talk.religion.misc | apology to jim meritt was silence is concurance m mwunix mitre org james meritt writes so stop dodging the question what is hypocritical about my criticizing bad arguments given that i do this both when i agree with the conclusion and when i disagree with the conclusion you are the one who has claimed to possess the fruits of precognition telepathy and telempathy divine it yourself another dodge oh well i m no match for your amazing repertoire of red herrings and smoke screens you asked for an apology i m not going to apologize for pointing out that your straw man argument was a straw man argument nor for saying that your list of bible contradictions shows such low standards of scholarship that it should be an embarrassment to anti inerrantists just as josh mcdowell should be an embarrassment to the fundies nor for objecting various times to your taking quotes out of context nor for pointing out that they do it too is not an excuse nor for calling your red herrings and smoke screens what they are i m still not sure why you think i m a hypocrite it s true that i haven t responded to any of robert weiss articles which may be due in part to the fact that i almost never read his articles but i have responded to both you and frank decenso a fundie inerrantist both you and frank have taken quotes out of context and i ve objected to both of you doing so i ve criticized bad arguments both when they were yours and i agreed with the conclusion that the bible is not inerrant and when they were frank s and i disagreed with the conclusion i ve criticized both you and frank for evading questions and for trying to explain me away without addressing the objections i raise you by accusing me of being hypocritical and irrational frank by accusing me of being motivated by a desire to attack the bible i don t see that any of this is hypocritical nor do i apologize for it i do apologize however for having offended you in any other way happy now dj
|
11,095 | talk.religion.misc | re davidians and compassion in article sandvik sandvik kent apple com sandvik newton apple com kent sandvik writes so we have this highly christian religious order that put fire on their house killing most of the people inside we have no way to know that the cultists burned the house it could have been the batf and fbi we only have the government s word for it after all and people who started it by a no knock search with concussion grenades are hardly disinterested observers on the first day after christmas my truelove served to me leftover turkey on the second day after christmas my truelove served to me turkey casserole that she made from leftover turkey days deleted flaming turkey wings pizza hut commercial and m tlu a gic bait ken arromdee arromdee jyusenkyou cs jhu edu
|
11,096 | talk.religion.misc | re apr god s promise in john brian lpl arizona edu brian ceccarelli writes be warned it is not my job to convert you that is the job of the holy spirit and i frankly make a lousy one i am only here to testify your conversion is between you and god i am out of the loop if you decide to follow jesus of which i indeed would be estatic then all the glory be to god i ve asked your god several times with all my heart to come to me i really wish i could believe in him cos no matter how much confidence i build up on my own the universe is a big place and it would be so nice to know i have someone watching over me in it i ve gone into this with an open mind i ve layed my beliefs aside from time to time when i ve had doubt and i ve prayed to see what good that would do i don t see what more i can do to open myself to your god short of just deciding to believe for no good reason and if i decide to believe for no good reason why not believe in some other god zeus seems like a pretty cool candidate all i know is that in all my searching even though i ve set aside my pride and decided that i want to know the truth no matter how difficult it may be to accept i have never had any encounter with any deity christian or otherwise please tell me what more i can do while still remaining true to myself brian kendig je ne suis fait comme aucun bskendig netcom com de ceux que j ai vus j ose croire n etre fait comme aucun de ceux qui existent the meaning of life si je ne vaux pas mieux au moins je suis autre is that it ends rousseau
|
11,097 | talk.religion.misc | re who s next mormons and jews cochrane james shapleigh writes it wouldn t be the first time a group has committed suicide to avoid the shame of capture and persecution this group killed itself to fulfill its interpretation of prophecy and to book a suite in paradise taking innocent kids along for the ride i hardly think the feds were motivated by persecution if they were all koresh would have had to do was surrender quietly to the authorities without firing a shot to get the american people behind him and put the feds in the hot seat but no god told him to play the tough guy there s great strength in yielding but few appreciate this peter m yadlowsky wake the sky is light academic computing center let us to the net again university of virginia companion keyboard pmy virginia edu after basho
|
11,098 | talk.religion.misc | re who s next mormons and jews bill gripp writes anyway i ve often wondered what business followers of christ would have with weapons fyi these people were not followers of christ david koresh was their messiah ok but didn t jesus figure somewhere into their beliefs anyway my original question regarding christians and weaponry still stands peter m yadlowsky wake the sky is light academic computing center let us to the net again university of virginia companion keyboard pmy virginia edu after basho
|
11,099 | talk.religion.misc | re who s next mormons and jews in article qvh n gf msuinfo cl msu edu friedenb maple egr msu edu gedaliah friedenberg writes in article qvfik rf usenet ins cwru edu cj cleveland freenet edu john w redelfs writes now that big brother has rubbed out one minority religion in waco who is next the mormons or jews give me a break if the mormons fortified utah and armed it to the teeth and were involved in illegal activity then they deserve whatever they get where were you brought up in the former ussr is innocent until proven guilty by a jury of your peers not dan rather dead in this country seems so is tax evasion the only charge brought against the bds punishable by death in this country now you are making a ludicrous suggestion not really you are a blind idiot we used to live in a country where everyone enjoyed the free exercise of their rights to worship and bear arms now we don t does that include the right to murder little children how about killing atf officers i do not know much about the gun laws in texas but koresh s folks claimed to have grenades grenade launchers and rocket launchers i am not sure that the nra feels that this falls under right to bear arms not sure yet you condem them to death for it if the batf had stayed home all would be alive now so who murdered who of course to jews and mormons this is just a broken record it has happened before please explain i do not remember jews or mormons as a group overtly breaking a judicious a k a non nazi law and being punished for it you have a short memory i ll bet all you cult haters are happy now right just hope you re not next followups to dev null alternative followups set to talk religion misc sleep well tonite heartless idiot sleep the sleep of the simple minded i shall weep for my country myself john w redelfs cj cleveland freenet edu all my opinions are tentative pending further data gedaliah friedenberg department of mechanical engineering department of metallurgy mechanics and materials science michigan state university i m short of patience tonite but rabid dogs deserve and get better treatment than the bds got jim jmd handheld com i m always rethinking that there s never been a day when i haven t rethought that but i can t do that by myself bill clinton april if i were an american as i am an englishman while a foreign troop was landed in my country i never would lay down my arms never never never william pitt earl of chatham nov
|
Subsets and Splits