The following is text of a discussion between the Reverend Al Sharpton and Don Imus on Reverend Sharpton's radio show regarding racial comments made on the Don Imus radio show, as recorded by The New York Times:

AL SHARPTON. As I speak, Mr. Imus has just entered the studio and I will, as soon as he's miked up, we will talk. And we will have a conversation in public that we talked about having. Let me say this, you that will join me at any point, I think that we keep it real on this show. I have very plainly stated my position; he will state his. I'm not getting into a whole lot of name calling but I'm certainly going to let us deal very candidly and forthrightly with this situation.

First of all, Mr. Imus, you sit?

DON IMUS. Yes, sir. I think - my mike on, yeah. Yes, I am.

SHARPTON. His mike's on. First of all, let me just say this so we are all clear. Mr. Imus, through several friends who state that he is not a bad guy, I talked to over the weekend several of his friends. He offered to talk. I said let's talk publicly. You offered for me to come on your show, I did not want to do that. I said, if he wants to talk, let him come to my show. You accepted the challenge. There's no preconditions. You understand that I've called for you to be fired. I've not rescinded that for you to come to this show and there's no preconditions other than we would talk very blunt and openly about what you said, and why I and others feel you should be fired. Is that not so?

IMUS. Yes, sir. That is true.

SHARPTON. All right. Now, let me first ask you this: What is any possible reason you could feel that this kind of statement could be just forgiven and overlooked?

IMUS. I don't think it should be. I don't think it can be. I think it can be forgiven, but I don't think it can be overlooked. And I - when I originally apologized on Friday, I apologized. And I didn't say what everybody said, you know, if I offended somebody, I'm sorry, because I knew I offended somebody. So I apologize. But I didn't want to be portrayed, as often, an excuse saying, well, what we have is a comedy show, which it is. I'm not a journalist, I'm not Tim Russert, I'm not a politician. I don't have any - we don't have an agenda. Our agenda is to try to be funny. And sometimes we go too far and sometimes we go way too far. In this case, we went way too far.

SHARPTON. Mr. Imus, do you think it's funny to call people nappy-headed ho's?

IMUS. No, I don't.

SHARPTON. So you thought it was funny Wednesday morning?

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IMUS. I don't know if I thought it was funny or not, but we got - it was a situation where we're sitting there rapping, see, and I'm saying, I watched the game last night between Rutgers and Tennessee. And I heard one of the sportscasters say that Rutgers is a lot tougher team. So I got on the air and I said, man, they are tough. I said, they got tattoos, and then somebody else said something. And then I said that. And at the time I said it, because I'm talking about two African-American teams, and at the time I said it, I didn't think - I mean I don't know, I'm just telling you what I thought - I didn't think it was racial. I wasn't even thinking racial. I was thinking like a "West Side Story" deal, like one team's tough and one team's not so tough.

SHARPTON. Nappy is racial.

IMUS. Yes, sir, I understand that.

SHARPTON. Saying wannabes and jigaboos is racial.

IMUS. I did not say that, and that was said in the -

SHARPTON. You didn't argue with it either.

IMUS. No, no -

SHARPTON. And it was the same conversation.

IMUS. No, sir, but that was presented in the context of the Spike Lee film.

SHARPTON. And again, this was in that film, with light-skinned blacks and dark-skinned blacks. That was what that was about, which is what the analogy, I assume, was being raised in terms of the two teams with Tennessee and Rutgers.

IMUS. Well, we weren't really thinking about it, that's obvious. If would have been thinking about it, we wouldn't have said it.

SHARPTON. So we made all of these analogies - let me get this right. You called these people nappy-headed ho's but you wasn't talking racial when you said nappy; jigaboos and wannabes, but you didn't understand what you were saying, you just - what are you saying, you blanked out?

IMUS. Well, no, I didn't - don't know - don't tell me I didn't understand what we were saying. I said, I wasn't thinking that. Now, if somebody says jigaboos and wannabes, then my frame of reference is the Spike Lee film. That's not a -

SHARPTON. Right, which was about light-skinned blacks -

IMUS. No, I understand that, but I'm not thinking that it is a racial insult that's being uttered at somebody at the time. I think it's in the process of this - what we're trying to rap and be funny. I mean I understand it's not funny. I understand there's no excuse for it. I'm not pretending that there is. I wish I hadn't of said it. I'm sorry I said it but -

SHARPTON. Now, let me ask you this - and then we could talk about the things that you want to talk about. If you realize that something must be done, why would you then feel that we are out of order to ask that you step aside.

IMUS. I didn't say that.

SHARPTON. Oh, you don't think we're out of order.

IMUS. No, sir.

SHARPTON. So you've come to sign your resignation?

IMUS. No, I'm not signing anything.

SHARPTON. So what are you saying?

IMUS. I'm saying you have the right -

SHARPTON. You want to determine what ought to happen even though you are the one that did the wrong?

IMUS. I didn't say that either.


IMUS. I said you have the right to say and do whatever you want to do. What I want you to do, and everybody else - everybody who's calling me a racist, everybody who's calling me a bigot, everybody who says, I don't know anything about him, because I've heard people say, I don't know what's in his heart and I don't know - I've never listened to his show, but I want him fired. That's an ill-informed decision.

SHARPTON. Well, let me say this - we're going to take a break. We're going to come back and talk to Brian Monroe[sp?]. I don't know what's in your heart -

IMUS. I want people to make a -

SHARPTON. - and I'm not going to call you a name, I'm not going to call you bigot. I'm going to say what you said was racist. I'm going to say what you said was abominable. I'm going to say you should be fired for saying it.

IMUS. That's fine.

SHARPTON. You could be fired and the nicest guy in the world, but you ought to be fired.

IMUS. That's fine.

SHARPTON. I'm going to take a break and we're going to talk about. I will give you credit for showing up and I'd even give you more credit if you'd decided to take - change your mind about resigning.

IMUS. But you're not making an informed decision, Reverend Al.

SHARPTON. Well, I want you to inform me because -

IMUS. O.K., I'll be happy -

SHARPTON. - one thing you'll find out about me, I don't meet private, I meet publicly so we can put it all on the line. And you act like a tough guy over there at the other station so let's be tough and let's deal with it. You've been tough and . . . say you're wrong; let's see what the punishment you should be. We'll be right back. Keeping it real. Imus did show up, you'all, and I'm still here.


SHARPTON. Keeping it real, keeping it real. I'm your host, Reverend Al Sharpton talking with Don Imus about our call for his firing. Let me ask you this - I'm getting a lot of e-mails a lot of calls, before I go into that and I'm going to bring in some others that want to talk to you, Mr. Imus, there's one e-mail here that said that you had said on your show this morning that you wanted to reach out to the team.

IMUS. I have.

SHARPTON. And what has happened?

IMUS. Well, I talked to - first of all, I talked to the athletic director, Bob Mulcahy, on 10:30, Saturday night. He said he was going to meet with the team today and the coach, and talk to them. Then, last night talked to Reverend Deforest Soaries for about 45 minutes, I guess. He's called for my firing, too, which he told me at the beginning of the conversation. But then he and I talked for about 45 minutes and he said, well, let me listen to you in the morning and see what you have to say, and he said something kind of interesting. After I talked to him, he said, you know, we don't need to come to Jesus's experience with you, and he said, but that's what's most troubling about this. He said, that's the enigma here, is because I believe that you're a good person. He says, I know you do what you do with the African-American community with African-American children and so on. And he said, it's all the more troubling that you would say something like this, he says, because if you'll say this, what would Rush Limbaugh say? And then he said something else, he said, you know, you said, here's what you have to understand - that's what he said now - he said, black people, at the core of their soul, don't believe that white people like them. And he said, at some point when something like this happens with someone like you, who they would - who a person could, you would think, could trust and would be on our side, he said, this just confirms that whole fear. He says, so it's an egregious sin that you've committed, and I said that I understood that.

SHARPTON. But, Mr. Imus - and I'm going to have Reverend Soaries on to speak for himself and I think that Reverend Soaries is a good man, I've known him a long time, since we were kids. This is not about whether you're a good man. I mean he can speak for himself on why he - this is about setting a precedent that allows racist language to be used on mainstream, federally regulated television and radio. That has nothing - what you said was racist.

Let me - you see this young lady here? Where is she at? You see this young lady?

IMUS. Yes, sir.

SHARPTON. This young lady just graduated . . . , went to Temple. She is not a nappy-headed ho, she's my daughter.

IMUS. I understand that.

SHARPTON. And when I heard what you said, I've got to defend my daughter. This is not about whether you're a good man, it's about how you devalue, how my daughters and the daughters of a lot of people listening are going to be looked at in this world. You have anchormen from news, network news, you have senators, you have presidential candidates that come on your show. Are we now saying it's acceptable in the middle of these kind of candidates and these anchormen for you to sit up and call my daughter a ho? That's what we're talking about here?

IMUS. Absolutely not. But why aren't -

SHARPTON. But then, then how can we then say the answer to that is a good guy?

IMUS. Why listen to the same kind of outrage, let me ask you, in the black community when rappers and other people in the black community, athletes in the black community defame and demean black women?

SHARPTON. I am one of them that is outraged.

IMUS. And call them worse names that I ever did.

SHARPTON. I am absolutely outraged by it. I attack it, I disagree with it. I've had friends of mine that used bad raps on radio that was fired. And I do not think that there ought to be two standards. I think you ought to join them.

IMUS. O.K., I think what makes a difference in this context - and you can still call for me to be fired, that's fine - but I think what makes a difference, a crucial difference, is what was my intent? Am I some rabid, racist, vicious person who's on a rampage screaming and got on the radio and turned on the microphone and said, here's what I think these women are? That's not what I did. What I did is repugnant and repulsive and horrible. You know what's horrible about it is here are these young women, who, at the pinnacle of their life and their athletic accomplishment, they played for the national championship of basketball -

SHARPTON. And really suffered to do that, worked hard to do that.

IMUS. - and I ruined it.

SHARPTON. Yeah, and that's the point.

IMUS. Yes, sir, I know that.

SHARPTON. But the point is this: The question is not whether you're a rabid racist with intent. If you commit a crime, intent may be an element, but the crime is still there.

IMUS. I understand that.

SHARPTON. To go to court and say, Your Honor, I didn't intend it. I got up this morning and I really was going to go to work, but I got mad and killed a guy. You still are guilty. The question of intent, you yourself said it was repugnant and all of that. Here's what I hear you saying, Mr. Imus: It is repugnant, it is unbelievable - but let's get past that, go on to the next commercial and I live to curse another day.

IMUS. I didn't say that.

SHARPTON. What are you saying?

IMUS. I didn't say anything.

SHARPTON. That's exactly right.

IMUS. No, I'm -

SHARPTON. You and I agree, you're not saying anything.

IMUS. I'm not saying anything about firing?

SHARPTON. About what - if you don't think your resignation is in order, what do you think the price should be that you pay? Not that I would agree with it. I'm just curious. What do you think?

IMUS. I haven't thought about that.

SHARPTON. I know. Let's bring Reverend Buster Soaries up. Reverend Soaries, you talked with Mr. Imus last -

[blip in transmission]

BUSTER SOARIES. . . . whether or not Mr. Imus is a good or bad person.

SHARPTON. Not at all.

SOARIES. And so I'm willing to concede that he's done some good things and perhaps did not intend to offend anybody. I think I'm a good father, but if I'm speeding on the turnpike and get a ticket, I still have to pay for the ticket. In other words, you don't get fined based on your previous good act; you get fined based on your current bad acts. And I think Mr. Imus has proven to be a progressive thinker, probably a liberal, you know, in philosophy. But it really doesn't matter if you slap me with your left hand or your right hand, I've been slapped. And so if Rush Limbaugh slaps me or if Don Imus slaps me, I've been slapped.

And I think what we're having problems with is that Don Imus does not fully understand the depth of the impropriety because if he did, then he would understand why you and I can be civil but at the same time ask for his removal -

IMUS. Well, if I understood that, I wouldn't have said it in the first place.

SOARIES. Well, well, and that's our problem.

IMUS. Yes, sir.

SOARIES. I mean if a person in your position -

IMUS. Yes, sir.

SOARIES. - you've got about 10 million listeners; as Al said, president candidates stop by because they respect your ability to penetrate the marketplace. And if someone with you ideological bent and philosophy can say something that mean-spirited and that damaging, my God, then we don't need enemies.

IMUS. No, I know, you said that last night and I agree. I don't have a good answer.

SHARPTON. Mr. Bryan Monroe is also on, Mr. Imus, who is the head of the National Association of Black Journalists. Byron[as spoken].

BRYAN MONROE. Thank you, Reverend Sharpton, and thank you, Mr. Imus, for coming on Reverend Sharpton's show and standing up and -

IMUS. Yes, sir.

MONROE. - looking us in the eye and telling us what were you thinking.

IMUS. Yes, sir.

MONROE. Mr. Imus, I have a daughter. I think you have a daughter. What would you do if a 67-year-old man went in front of millions of people and called your daughter what you called these women? Mr. Imus, what do you think the consequences of those words should be? Should an apology be enough?

IMUS. Probably not. Probably some gesture of reconciliation, I think. I mean, you see I know the work that I do and so does Reverend Soaries and I believe so does Reverend Sharpton, so I mean I'm not - I don't have to go have a Road to Damascus experience and say, go round me up a bunch of black kids and act like I'm going to do something good or try to get me some black friends or something or [commit?] myself to any kind of cause like sickle cell anemia, which I've tried in vain to do, so I don't - I haven't thought about what I actually have in mind -

[other voices all at once]

- but you're saying - when I talked this morning, I was talking to the team and I was talking to the - and I'm trying to make arrangements in every possible way that I can to meet with these young women and their parents and the coach, and apologize to them and try to put into some sort of context, and ask for them to forgive me. Now -

SHARPTON. Could you hold one minute? I've got to take a break.

IMUS. Yes, sir.

SHARPTON. And then when you get on this side, we're going to continue this conversation with Reverend Buster Soares, Byron[as pronounced] Monroe, Don Imus, live in the studio at "Keeping it Real With Al Sharpton." We'll be back in a few minutes. I think your closing point was you were trying to get a meeting and ask them for forgiveness. We want to pick up on that point. And again, my thing - well, we'll wait till after the break. We're going to keep it real. Sharpton. Right after this.


SHARPTON. I continue the public conversation with Don Imus. And I am joined by Bryon Monroe of the National Association of Black Journalists, as well as Pastor Reverend Buster Soaries. Mr. Imus, you said going off that something about you wanted to do something with sickle cell or something and wanted to meet with these young ladies -

IMUS. Oh, well, here's what kind of - slightly interesting and . . . but I was talking about a ranch - we have a working cattle ranch for kids with cancer out in New Mexico that my wife and I run. We don't have counselors, we run it like a "Bonanza" deal where we take 10 kids at a time, half are from minority groups, and they live in the house with us and we are their surrogate parents. And we have noticed over the years a number of African-American kids with sickle cell anemia. And this past summer there was a young man from New Jersey who we had to send home. And the airport is 120 miles from - not the airport, the hospital is 120 miles from the ranch. So he liked my truck so my wife and I and a doctor and this young man got in the truck, and we roared down to the hospital. Meanwhile Charlotte was on the phone getting his mom to fly out from New Jersey. And we got in the hospital and my wife was holding his hand and he asked her if he was going to die in there. And we talked about that all the way home and because these kids know that we love them, because we tell them that we love them. And their parents know that when they send them there that we're going to be their parents. So I came back on the air and I talked to Harold Ford and I talked to John McCain and every politician I talked to, I said, what do you know about sickle cell anemia? How much federal funding is being done? How much research has been done? I didn't hear from you, I didn't hear from Reverend Soaries, I didn't hear from this guy, the Black Journalists - I didn't hear from anybody, nobody called me to say, here's how we can help you find out about this.

SHARPTON. Because we've all been working with sickle cell for many years.

IMUS. O.K., well, there ain't a lot getting done, Reverend. There's not a lot getting done about it.

SHARPTON. You're already known about it. But let me say this to you, Mr. Imus -

IMUS. Why are these kids still dying then?

SHARPTON. That's what we want to know -

IMUS. Why is there no answer?

SHARPTON. In fact there is an - I agree with you, there's not enough federal funds there, and there's not enough private sector funds. We've been dealing with this for many years.

IMUS. I bet I could raise a lot more money than y'all can.

SHARPTON. Well, I bet you could have before last Wednesday. I'm not going to let you off the hook for last Wednesday. Before we go there -

IMUS. Well, I'm not asking you to.

SHARPTON. - before we go there, let me say this. I don't think the issue is that you may have done good things. The issue is whether we can afford a precedent to be established that somebody can say something that you admittedly say yourself is wrong and I say is racist and sexist, and it just be glossed over. That's the issue here. Because then, if you walk away from this unscathed, the next guy could say whatever he wants and just say, I'm sorry.

IMUS. Unscathed? What are you, crazy? How am I unscathed by this? Don't you think I'm humiliated? Don't you think I'm embarrassed? Don't you think -

SHARPTON. You're not as humiliated as young black women.

IMUS. I didn't say I was. I didn't say I was. It's not a contest of who's the most humiliated.

SHARPTON. Absolutely not.

IMUS. Don't you think I understand what - our job at that ranch is to restore the self-esteem and dignity of these young people. Don't you think that I'm thinking to myself, well, what was I - what made me think I could make fun of these young women? And what was I thinking? What was I thinking?

SHARPTON. Then what do you think, as you say, a self-described good, decent man, you should do to establish a precedent that this type of thing cannot go unaccounted -

IMUS. Well, just because I've done this program I've done for 30 years this way, doesn't mean I have to do it this way tomorrow. And let me go talk to these women. Let me -

SHARPTON. But didn't you once promise Clarence Page[sp?] you would stop making these kind of statements?

IMUS. Yes, I did.

SHARPTON. So what, do you repent every decade?

IMUS. No, sir. Well, I can - no, sir, I mean that's a good point. But no, sir, I didn't think that. I wasn't thinking. If I'd been thinking, I wouldn't have said this, Reverend Sharpton.

SHARPTON. I mean you said this before, you called Gwen [says Euwell, he means Ifill] a cleaning lady -

IMUS. No, no, don't do - no, don't start that. That is not true. That is absolutely - that is a lie.

SHARPTON. What did you call her?

IMUS. I didn't call her anything.

SHARPTON. You didn't.

IMUS. No, I did not. You want to know the facts?

SHARPTON. Yes, please.

IMUS. This is back during the Reagan administration. And how long y'all got to dig something up. It's the Reagan administration.


IMUS. And we had a bit on the radio called "Imus in Washington," which is like fake news. And I had a fake like a David Duke character. And Gwen Ifill had just been named the White House correspondent for NBC News, and this David Duke-like character, reflecting the philosophy and the attitude of the Reagan administration, said, isn't it great that Gwen Ifill's been invited back to the White House as a cleaning lady. And for years people have said I said that. I didn't say that. We were trying - that was satire. That was a reflection of the racism we perceived of that administration. And for years I've had to - people have then said, well, you said this about Gwen Ifill. I did not say that.

SHARPTON. So you considered the Reagan administration racist?

IMUS. Well, I thought - it was a joke. It was satire.

SHARPTON. But you're saying you considered -

IMUS. I don't know if they were racists or not, but I think they were -

SHARPTON. Byron[as spoken] Monroe, are you telling me that he hasn't sent statements down through the years that were questionable.

MONROE. Well, I want to go back to something he said earlier. Mr. Imus, you talked about the good work you're doing with sickle cell, the work you're doing at the ranch. I understand you picked up a young African-American child who needed some medical attention and put him on your plane. I think all those things are great, all those things are admirable. And they have nothing to do with what you said on Wednesday.

IMUS. I didn't say that.

MONROE. But more importantly, for you to then - I heard you this morning - call out black journalists, and I'm not going to let that stand. I need to tell you something: My magazine, Ebony magazine -

IMUS. Oh no, wait a minute, what'd you say I did this morning?

MONROE. Called out black journalists about not covering - not calling you and covering your sickle cell story.

IMUS. Well, nobody called me.

MONROE. Let me be clear.

IMUS. Sure.


IMUS. Right.

MONROE. When you were still doing radio spots for used cars.

IMUS. Good.

MONROE. I cannot let you -

IMUS. Well, don't come on this radio program to insult me because I'm not insulting you.

MONROE. I will not let you question why black journalists -

IMUS. I'm not going to sit here and let you insult me.

MONROE. - didn't beat a path to your door -

IMUS. Sir, sir, I'm not going to -

MONROE. - when you discovered sickle cell.

IMUS. You can keep talking all you want. You are not going to insult me. Don't insult me. I didn't - I have not insulted you.

MONROE. You insult our intelligence asking why -

IMUS. Don't talk about me doing used car commercials.

MONROE. - we and why black journalists haven't been covering the story -

IMUS. Let me tell you, I'll bet you I've slept in a house with more black children who were not related to me than you have.

MONROE. - we have been covering the story for decades. O.K.

IMUS. Do not get in my face about this.

SHARPTON. What is that supposed to mean?

IMUS. In fact don't be on the - why didn't you show up here in person? Don't get in my face about this.

SHARPTON. Hold it a minute. Hold it a minute. Just a minute, Bryan. I'm going to take a break.

IMUS. Don't - I mean I don't have to put up with a man getting in my face like this because I didn't call him any names. I didn't demean him.

SHARPTON. It's keeping it real.

IMUS. Well, so am I.

SHARPTON. That's right. You're on the right show.

IMUS. I didn't come here to get slapped around and I'm not going to get slapped around.

SHARPTON. No, we're not going to slap anybody.

IMUS. No, I know that.

SHARPTON. We're going to talk bluntly.

IMUS. Well, I understand that.

SHARPTON. And unedited. I'm sure you sit at a radio station, not going to get touchy. You do this every day.

IMUS. [laughs]

[went to a break. Lost feed.]

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