: Because ADC are(suppose to be if they don't whine so much) teamfight oriented and design to be beaten in 1v1 scenario, that's why they have a player dedicated to be at their side (support) and not the Tank at TOP lane. ADC are suppose to lose 1v1, deal with it.. that's why most of the time there is someone at their side.
If I thought the people that were whining about adc were doing so because they lost 1v1s, I'd agree with you. However, when the tank mains say they're getting "blown up", i'm doubtful that's the case. Once you're getting wrecked by the adc in teamfights, then you have to count the support - none of this is 1v1.
: ***
You're not wrong, but saying it in a thread like this is pretty funny
: Marksmen are just too reliable
Right clicks have been reliable for seasons and ADCs haven't been overbearing until maybe just recently, so I doubt there's anything to the 'no skillshots = OP' argument that sometimes gets made. As far as design, I wish MORE champs roghtclicked for their damage. People always take support's influence (and currently knight's vow) for granted when claiming ADC is solely responsible for their success. IMO it's a hell of a lot more interesting to have a role worth focusing or supporting in teamfights rather than making everyone do burst damage of varying cooldowns - it's a little more chess, a little less checkers. I also don't really buy into the health of the whole 'setup' gameplay pattern, and I think the count-to-three (or four) passives got old seasons ago. That's just me though.
Elikain (EUNE)
: What part of Doran's Shield is being "abused" by Marksmen? The item is simply too good for a starting item and it provides a hefty ton of HP regen so not even Marksmen want to avoid it, at the expense of some early game damage. If you can take damage and not waste pots in excess (regen a lot of it back over time), than the item's a bit too strong. Same thing happened with Frost Queen's Claim, after it got buffed for Supports. Mages ended up buying it as a first item to dip into gold gen not meant for them and as a cheep active slow that could pretty much secure ganks and make sure the enemy wasn't going anywhere if you intended to blow them up with, at that point, undodgeable skillshots. So that time, Mages weren't "broken as shit" because of this, FQC was simply too good to pass up for a class that could've used it due to it's stats. I didn't see Tanks or Junglers dip into the same item, because the gold gen was not worth the stats you're paying for and not using for anything.
It's funny that every single ADC abuse case just so happens to be an absurdly overstatted item in the first place... But seriously if people want an ADC-abuse-proof item, here's literally the only thing you need to do: don't put damage on it. Boom, solved, not fkin hard. "Bbbut doran's shield doesn't have damage" - replace the damage to minions stat with something defensive and see if adc still buys it (they won't)
Skias (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=magic lasso,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AYbGRfcs,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2017-06-07T04:16:02.193+0000) > > ADC are flashy and simple to use and the majority of players are simple-minded and like flashy things. ADC... Is flashy? Since when?
Vallalan (NA)
: How to nerf Lucian without ruining bork for all the other adcs
How about we just gut Lucian? Every meta he's viable, he's dominant. You just put your cursor on the other guy and guaranteed win the trade (in lane) and you're safer (yes, I said it) than most adcs thanks to your stupid mobility. If you abuse Bork, abused cleaver, abused lethality (not the worst, but still), maybe you're the abusive part...
: #Definitely not! **ADC** should lose to **TANKS**, if an **ADC** focus a **TANK** he should be punished and that means the **TANK** won because **his job is to draw attention of the enemy DPS**. You know who is design to win against **TANKS**? **Juggernaughts**, **Bruisers** and **Fighters**. Because they have the tankness to deal with the base damage of a **TANK** skills and have the damage to deal with them, not to mention the Juggernaughts have the time to set up their plays when facing a tank, example: _Darius can stack his passive on a tank then goes to the backline to 1 shot the carries_. You and other ADC mains want to win against anyone and Riot keep pandering because flashy plays and ppl 1v5 in LCS attract mindless watchers.
Assassins: ADCs should lose to us. Bruisers/fighters: ADCs should lose to us. Tanks: ADCs should lose to us. And don't try telling me adcs are supposed to beat mages. Yours is the worst-designed game of Rock Paper Scissors ever.
: > [{quoted}](name=AninLegions777,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KNEVUsP8,comment-id=00060002,timestamp=2017-03-17T14:35:12.943+0000) > >. At full build, offensive should be > Defensive not equal sure, because you said so
It's just simple risk/reward. If defense is the safer build early (it is), then you'd better let offense win at some other point or you just have a game where everyone builds tank.
Ralanr (NA)
: I really hate it when ADCs start flourishing with an item made for another class.
How about they just stop making the items broken to the point that ADCs are lining up to buy health (old streaks), MR (EoN), or armor (ninjas - yea, I said it)? There's still plenty of room to design items to help melees before you get to the point that it's attractive to a class that only buys damage.
: Nerfing the MR of certain AD items would be smarter than giving AP+Armor items.
Even if the intent is to have assassins beat mages (not sure it is), can we at least admit riot's itemization is horribly rationed out? Sorry, but forcing mages into zhonya's for armor or a deadend if they want qss active, all while the ad equivalents are very strong, is bad. Leaving morello's as the overbearing auto lock AP item is bad too, and covers up the problems with the rest of AP itemization. Go ahead and nerf the mr+ad items if you want, but let's not pretend that makes it ok to force mages into crap items just to get armor (or forcing ad champs to do the same, but at least they have boot freedom)
: already seeing mordekaiser in my games
Lol, like the players aren't sheep the rest of the time. Funniest part is that everyone in the other thread thinks Morde needs to become "meta" in order to end the marksman "meta"
Salron (NA)
: So we're getting an AD Zhonyas too then Yes?
Sure, right after mages get AP edge and AP maw and AP lifesteal. This isn't an "AP needs an equivalent to everything as" argument (which you'd still be on the wrong side of), it's asking for AP to get decent access to a mechanic (upgrade) that's been very important recently, and it's asking at a time when the item offering is pretty imbalanced between ad/mr items and AP/armor items.
: > [{quoted}](name=The Big Piece,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UqqFAx3T,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2017-01-22T12:01:38.940+0000) > > I see everyone complaining about too much damage, but seriously, has nobody noticed how unkillable tanks are? If you wanna kill tanks, you have to get items that aren't good vs squishies - % armor/mr ignore and % hp dmg. Noone gets such items early. And good luck killing any team with locket + redemption + something like Karma's E.
But the %HP items are actually pretty garbage at dealing with HP. Liandries might be decent, but it's not for the passive, it's because it's the health+AP item that's left since Rylai's was nerfed. In fact, you basically have to hope the tank messes up and builds a lot of MR/Armor, because those stats are the ones which actually get countered by their respective counter items.
Numb3rs (NA)
: ONLY 2 things need to be done to make this season not shit.
We're not even a season out from tank ekko, tank akali, and the other frankenstein builds (graves comes to mind)... and people think "nerf damage!" is really the solution? Nerf bases and flat dmg like sheen/sunfire, but if you nerf damage scaling, everyone's just gonna pick kits with the most utility/mobility and build those same flat damage + tank builds like they did before.
: If is the support role is so terrible that no one will ever willingly queue for it
Riot needs to put more meaningful choices into playing support. As much as sightstone and gp10/upgrades might have been convenient for supports, they shoehorn every support into the same build for the first 3000 or so gold (including boots), which takes awhile for support to earn.
: > [{quoted}](name=Mandang0,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=GaGAiA1A,comment-id=0013,timestamp=2016-11-09T02:06:24.435+0000) > > It&#x27;s because ADC&#x27;s output in the teamfight is the easiest to affect. ADC is the class that is the easiest to kill (unlike fighters/tanks) and that needs to stay alive to deal their damage (unlike assassins/mages). It&#x27;s healthy that the game focuses so much on the role for that reason, or else we get a game without attractive teamfight objectives. It would either be a bunch of burst making the game determined by fast-twitch reflexes or it&#x27;d be a wet noodle fight of tanks. Loving this guy's logic. According to him it's easier to kill a dashing Lucian or a rocket jumping Tristana than Velkoz or any otherb immobile mage. Kk, we hear ya. Don't write crap that's false.
Not really sure which part of my post you're contesting here. Is it that other classes have to build squishier than ADC or that other classes need to stay in the fight longer to get their damage off? ...or is it just complaining about ADCs? How many of those immobile mages build glass? How many of them need to remain in the fight as opposed to blowing their spells upfront and being done? How many do both of those things?
: Maybe ADCs have too much burst?
The difference is that the assassin deals their damage against squishy targets, while the ADC has to attack the tanks. And, no, the ADC isn't doing that burst faster or more reliably than the assassin. You're stretching the truth quite a bit about your Twitch anecdote and your typical experience on assassins.
: "We're increasing the burst windows for Assassins for counterplay"
Lmao... assassin mains suddenly pretending they care about game balance. Between this and the other thread, it's always discussing these ridiculous endgame scenarios where the ADC has 400 AD and 100% crit and a Janna shield, wind's coming from the northwest, Mercury's in retrograde, etc.
: The entire Meta of LoL is based around ADCs
It's because ADC's output in the teamfight is the easiest to affect. ADC is the class that is the easiest to kill (unlike fighters/tanks) and that needs to stay alive to deal their damage (unlike assassins/mages). It's healthy that the game focuses so much on the role for that reason, or else we get a game without attractive teamfight objectives. It would either be a bunch of burst making the game determined by fast-twitch reflexes or it'd be a wet noodle fight of tanks.
: Jayce has more than hp/level than Jax, Shen, Garen, Mundo, Galio, and others
See someone thinking HP/level matters in 2016. Check to see whether it's still Falcon crying about Jax. Pleasantly surprised.
: Reminder: Every Worlds is the "most boring Worlds ever" with the "least diversity."
Idk, I much prefer seeing the mages in play this year than the bullshit do-everything champs like last year.
: Another worlds where Rumble and Gnar are spammed top lane 24/7
Rumble's been a free loss this tournament.
grug (NA)
: got a link? i broke 4 fingers trying to lift a washing machine hence i cannot do so myself.
: You are aware he announced he's quitting LoL content
Yep. You are aware this is a reference to his tweet from yesterday
Rioter Comments
nep2une (NA)
: Most people didn't complain about Alistar till now...
Is anyone actually saying that? I haven't seen it.
: A Post about Duality, Overwatch and Karma
_Disclaimer: I only read through the section that discussed the loss of old Karma's RQ duality. I didn't read through the kit suggestions as I think "duality" itself isn't something Riot should be pursuing._ What you call "duality" is exactly why Karma was never allowed to be strong before, and it's why she needed a rework. How are you going to balance old Karma's RQ? Is it balanced for lane, when it only maybe hits 4 people? Is it balanced for teamfights when it actually hits 4 people? Or is it balanced around the optimal usage when it hits all 10 in a teamfight? Now ask that same question regarding optimal and suboptimal use of missing health scaling on old Q and ask it a third time regarding Karma's old missing health -> AP passive. If you balance Karma around the best case scenario, all realistic usages are going to feel underwhelming. If you balance around her laning, then the spell feels overpowered in teamfights. Same thing for her old W, but I'm not going to hold that against her - it could always have been replaced with something else. Regarding the whole "duality" concept in general, I think it's similar to the generalist kits that Riot's trying to move away from (which I support them for doing). I think it's great for the game to have a support like Janna who does very little offensively be contrasted with someone like Blitzcrank who does very little defensively. I think pushing "duality" onto supports is just going to increase kit similarity and select for which supports do the same things better rather than encouraging niche picks (like how Lulu and Nami aren't usually both good at any given time).
: If I had one complaint about tanks right now, I'd complain about Doran's Shield
If Doran's shield gets buffed, can we finally get rid of Cowl's passive? I've always hated that mechanic...
SnowFall (NA)
: Unlike Karthus', Kog'Maw's death passive feels so random, like it was strapped to him because they've run out of imagination on what would suit him. Such a poor design, about time they designed a new passive for him that doesn't require him to die to use it.
Agreed, and people got Zyra's passive changed for the same - death passives aren't great on kits of champs with high range.
: tell that to vayne.
Good luck building armor against that true damage.
: the math is as follows - level 1 if your target has roughly 2k hp liandrys is terrible. level 2 if your target has 3k hp liandrys is better. level 3 if your target has nearly 4k hp liandrys will melt. if your team has extra slows and you have magic penetration add 1 to level of value any questions? good. blade of the ruined king - at 1.8 attacks per second steals more life from an enemy above 2500 hp and 150armor than blood thirster at 1.25 attacks per second. increases in value the more attack speed you have and armor penetration on higher hp max targets. those are guesstimates. dont make me pull out my calculator.
LMAO, go ahead and pull out your calculator (and why does the BoRK case have ~90% more attack speed than the blood thirster case?). Even at 4K HP (max HP or current, btw?), Liandry's isn't _melting_ anything.... it's a small dot. BoRK can at least be applied rapidly, but no one's building it because it sucks (as well as the Bloodthirster you're trying to compare it to). It's really not hard to figure out - the items don't get bought because they aren't good. It's not that tanks aren't building 3k+ health... that's stupidly common, and mages are building more health than ever before too, what with how strong Rylai's is...
: {{item:3153}} deals 6% current hp as bonus physical damage - lifesteal applies to that damage. deals 10% of opponents max hp heals for that amount and steals targets movement speed by 25% {{item:3151}} 15% magic penetration. spells burn enemies for 3 seconds for 2% of their current health. doubles on movement impaired units. {{champion:60}} Neurotoxin / Venomous Bite Cost: 80/85/90/95/100 Mana Range: 625 Human Form: Deals damage based upon how high the target's Health is. Spider Form: Lunges at an enemy and deals damage based upon how low their Health is. Deals magic damage equal to 40/75/110/145/180 plus 4% (+[3% Ability Power]%) of the target's current health. Maximum bonus against monsters: 75/100/125/150/175. do the math. *edit also here is a list of more champs that can and sometimes do use liandrys. does not include anything but champs listed as mage primary or secondary in the champ sort - teemo was left out of the list but can also use it {{champion:32}} {{champion:34}} {{champion:136}} {{champion:63}} {{champion:69}} {{champion:31}} {{champion:60}} {{champion:28}} {{champion:9}} {{champion:74}} {{champion:30}} {{champion:55}} {{champion:127}} {{champion:90}} {{champion:57}} {{champion:25}} {{champion:68}} {{champion:37}} {{champion:50}} {{champion:163}} {{champion:110}} {{champion:161}} {{champion:112}} {{champion:8}} {{champion:115}} {{champion:143}}
LMAO that list! And you're not adding anything to the conversation by listing stats. No ADC is building BoRK because those stats suck compared to dealing damage by other means. Forcing ADC to build BoRK as a counter to a health stack build is helping the rest of your team by gimping their build. Same for Liandry's. Funny you should say "do the math" too, considering you haven't done any to check whether the stat split is optimal. Hell, do we even know whether there was %HP damage in his game? Voli's sitting on Mercs (25 MR), Spirit Visage (55), scaling magic resist runes (27 MR at level 18), and hits 50 naturally by 18 for a total of 155 MR. Add 15 to that if the support built a Locket. If the enemy team isn't heavily magic damage, I wouldn't recommend building any more MR than that, regardless of whether Elise might be bringing %HP damage and some flat pen in her build (a small amount compared to 150 MR).
: ...if you say so champ.
Idk which one you're taking objection to... The BoRK that no ADC builds? The Liandry's that no one besides Brand/Zyra build? The portion of Elise's damage that's %HP? It's funny because half of the people crapping on his build are saying he doesn't have enough armor, but then you bring up _magic_ %HP damage, and the way you'd both have him build instead (more armor or MR) does absolutely nothing for the other case.
: > [{quoted}](name=Jhin UItd JFK,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=yKiqPw7H,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2016-09-13T03:23:10.420+0000) > > lol found someone who thinks thinks this is what tanking is > xd actually he described exactly what tanking is. at least as far as a bruiser is able to "tank". body blocking skillshots for the backline, and taking down enemy divers. so he does have a point when he says he shouldnt blow up like a paper machet puppet and be nailed to the ground by rylais until he dies while teamfighting, and not even trying to dive 1v5 into the enemy team like the op described. and that armor calculation isnt even exaggeration. you can get up to 70 flat armor pen from runes and masteries, with {{item:3142}} {{item:3147}} {{item:3156}} together with the penetration from a last whisper, or the shred of a cleaver, of your 200 armor, there will literally be 60 armor left. agaisnt other squishies this build makes you deal straight up true damage.
Deadman's Plate, Righteous Glory, and Mercs are all suboptimal if he's seriously trying to only block skillshots and take down enemy divers. I'll bet you dollars to donuts that the Volibear was trying to engage with that build instead. And if he's concerned about marksmen, maybe he should purchase one of the items designed specifically to counter them: {{item:3047}} {{item:3143}} {{item:3110}}
: It's not about the fact that she has a single %HP spell, it's about the fact that she's a character who specializes in MPen builds due to her kit and that Voli build has like 70 MR in it on top of 4000 HP or some business. It's basically the perfect Elise target because of her preferred item build (mpen focused with %hp damage)... His build is garbo. He has like 2-3 bruiser items in his "full tank" build and way not enough resistances - I don't know why people are like "LW shreds bonus armor so clearly the counter to it is to not build any armor at all!" - you still end up with way more EHP from additional armor - and something like a Randuin's, Thornmail, or BV can greatly decrease the damage you take even outside of the armor/MR from the item itself.
It depends on what type of damage you're facing (physical, magic, true). People talk about %HP damage like it's the boogeyman, but the thing they don't talk about is that the armor you buy does nothing against magic damage, regardless of how much penetration the enemy team has. Most people don't build enough health. And seriously, %HP damage is a joke. By its very nature, it's not the type of damage that "melts" anyone. The items that offer it do so as % _current_ HP damage, which is even less threatening, and Liandry's does so as a slow burn. His build is garbo, but it's garbo because he somehow managed to avoid all of the items that counter autoattacks. His build's not trying to soak so much as it's trying to engage, but then when he fails at engaging AND soaking, he comes to the forums and complains that tanks can't soak, which he wasn't building for in the first place.
: lol i can think of three that would completely melt overcompensating hp builds. {{item:3153}} {{item:3151}} {{champion:60}}... need i say more? add the rest as you see fit.
Those first two suck, and Elise isn't going to _melt_ anyone with %HP damage on a 6s cooldown. Some of the items in his build suck, but I think the stat split is pretty close to optimal.
Raidarc (NA)
: 4k hp and 250 armor and ur still squishy
I see you've given up on trying to make quantitative claims... probably for the best. You're still terribly wrong, I just can't show you how much your math sucks this time.
: This is what is wrong with how ranked works
I'm sympathetic, but a performance-based ranked system is just gonna encourage players to play to that metric instead of playing to win the game. No one's gonna play tanks, because tanks die when they're doing their job. ADC's never gonna commit to fights because they're too afraid of dying. Jungles will just rice if all that matters is their own stats. Why take a risk on ganking for a complete stranger who (lets be real here) they think is trash? Mids won't roam for the same reason.
: > [{quoted}](name=Mandang0,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=J2BeGOgJ,comment-id=0003000000000000,timestamp=2016-09-12T15:52:57.506+0000) > > What&#x27;s even worse is that mages are currently balanced around Thunderlord&#x27;s adding burst. If Riot ever does the right thing and removes it, burst will be even harder for mages (hey, maybe Riot will buff Luden&#x27;s back out of irrelevance!) Riot won't remove keystones at this point. They've gone too far with them to ever remove them. They'll rebalance them for sure, but they won't remove them.
I want to believe, but you're probably right. I just don't see the game getting any better so long as keystones encourage more of these tank ekko builds or pen-stack ADC builds. And, pertaining to burst champs, when everyone's building these free damage + tank stats builds, the burst champs are the ones that suffer most. Then again, Riot's bringing an assassin patch through, so who freakin knows what they'll do.
Meddler (NA)
: > [{quoted}](name=Meddler,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cEc1eKf6,comment-id=001a,timestamp=2016-09-12T02:22:18.848+0000) > > As a result we didn&#x27;t want to remove it without adding at least one replacement item that served that same function.
Will Riot ever increase the number of items in the game? Specifically concerning the recent discussion around Rylai's (and related counter items, like Swifties), it seems like asking for those items to serve a niche subset of champs is consequently limiting the item space available to the rest of the game (in other words, it's zero-sum). So long as tenacity does nothing against permaslows, Swifties are needed as a counter to that mechanic, but then one of the boot slots in the game is reserved for a very specific scenario and might be suboptimal the majority of the time. If Rylai's AP is nerfed to buff its HP and serve AP bruisers (however many champs that actually describes), then the item becomes dead to the majority of mages (and there're still a lot of misgivings about HP becoming a mage stat). As an example, will mages get more high-AP options in the new season, or (dream scenario incoming), will the item/mastery system be changed to better reward commitment to building offense as opposed to the keystones and ekko/graves/yasuo-like builds of this season?
Meddler (NA)
Is it really that much of a problem? Bottom lane is physical damage, jungle is still physical most of the time (would be all of the time if form-changing champions didn't dominate jungle), top is mostly physical if not a tank (or Ekko lol). Meanwhile, physical champs have the ability to AOE apply a %armor reduction with black cleaver and are less sensitive to the enemy tanking up because autoattacks have a 1.0 AD ratio, while AP casters run out of steam when their cooldowns are spent. How many AP champs are actually a problem in a locketless world? How many are still a problem in a world where locket retains its AOE shield but not the MR aura? I'm thinking of a perennially-well-balanced champion like Kennen here... why should his AOE damage be mitigated for free next season as opposed to currently where the support has to build locket? Lastly, regarding support, sincere thanks for starting to take a look at relic shield. I think it's one of the biggest reasons the role's been dominated by tanks for the longest time.
Meddler (NA)
Can you please go with the latter (squishy kite option) rather than the former (tanky/utility)? I feel like the purpose of kiting is somewhat lost when you're building tanky in the first place (just like I feel Zhonya's identity would have been better served if its armor had been nerfed rather than its AP). Certain spell types seems cool too, but please don't nerf the item back to the point where only like 2 champs in the entire game consider purchasing it. Additionally, can we get better manaless AP items, compared to the mana options? RoA makes Rylai's look like a joke stats-wise, Morello is ridiculous, Seraph's makes mana builds the highest-AP potential of the bunch, and Zhonya's/Luden's/Liandry's all feel pretty underwhelming in most cases. This all after manaless champs had perhaps their best leg up on mana users removed from the game (spell vamp). Blue buff still helps mana-users more than manaless, ocean drake too, even the Doran's items themselves do.
Meddler (NA)
Could locket get its stats nerfed instead? I personally think it would be great if support items were focused on their actives/auras at the expense of their self-stats to encourage purchasing the items on low gold champions or as a matter of greater risk/greater reward (with the reward being that the stat nerf comes with a corresponding cost decrease). As for other support items, could we get an item that casts a damage amp on a single target or target area? It would be like old DFG, except without any of the actual damage...
Rioter Comments
AhmCha (NA)
: Riot I'm not a Kog'Maw player but...
Heaven knows artillery mages could use the help
: You know what made Rylais/Mallet feel so much more frustrating to play against?
They should just change tenacity to affect the intensity of slows rather than the duration, so they don't have to waste an item slot on a boot that only counters slows.
: So duskblade changes when?
S7: 90% of items are melee only.
: pretty sure mid season mage update was supposed to take care of that, now we have several new items not to build. and a bunch of old ones rendered obsolete. you want me to trust riot to try again? riots focus is on assassins in the pre season.
What's even worse is that mages are currently balanced around Thunderlord's adding burst. If Riot ever does the right thing and removes it, burst will be even harder for mages (hey, maybe Riot will buff Luden's back out of irrelevance!)
Pyro (EUNE)
: I don't think Mordekaiser should be holding this item hostage. He's just about the last manaless champion who deserves access to it. I'd really rather see it going into "squishy kiting" way. If you break through a kiting Brand/Azir/Zyra, they should die instantaneously. You've mentioned DotA's Rylai - but her personal trait is mana regeneration. I'd rather remove health completely, give it mana instead, and make up Morde's loss by giving him a proper rework, or a new item with CC more suited for him (something akin to DMP/Iceborn/Righteous Glory).
Agreed. WItholding this item to help AP bruisers (all...2...of them?) is just wasting item space in the game and shoehorning the majority of mages into the same build everygame. Honestly, I think Riot should change tenacity to affect the intensity of the slow rather than the duration, so permaslows can be better-itemized against.
D357R0Y3R (EUW)
: So deathcap cost efficiency is even lower? seems worse to me
It's missing the point either way, so knock yourself out. The post I replied to is arguing that the stat strength of Rylai's is too high given its utility. It just so happens that the utility on that item and the stats on other items are both listed as passives. It's not really significant that it's the case - after all how are you going to compare gold efficiency of Rylai's to that of a well-defined item like DCap? The reason I brought it up in the first place is that arguing "but 100% gold efficiency!" is naive as the entire point of completed items is that they grant >100% gold efficiency.
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