bj penn = best p4p

Discussion in ' Radio' started by TigerUpperCut, Dec 16, 2009.

  1. TigerUpperCut New Member

    i agree with marc laimon bj is the man

  2. GorgeousGeorge Moderator

    at this very moment, based off that last performance ... it's probably bj penn.

    but we all said the same thing in jan when fedor beat aa ...

    in may when lyoto ko'ed rashad ...

    in july when gsp throttled alves for 5 rds ...

    in august when anderson "matrixed" griffin ...

    and now bj.

    at the end of the day. they are all great. i honestly don't give a f*ck anymore about this argument. all five are phenomenal. in fact, aldo looks awesome as well.

  3. EAJames Member

    Certainly you could make a case for any of the aforementioned fighters to be the "pound for pound" best in the world, each have a long list of accomplishments and have proven their dominance in their respective weight classes. However, I have always subscribed to BJ Penn being the MOST TALENTED fighter in all of mixed martial arts. His greatness is unquestionable and his excellence not only shows in his BJJ, but has infact transcended into other facets of his game.

    Here's a real quick question you can ask yourself. Put records aside, because when discussing overall ability and talented, wins and losses aren't relevant. For example, the greatest NBA team, Chicago Bulls, won the championship and are widely considered as the best team ever, yet still suffered 10 or so defeats in the regular season. We're talking talent here, not wins and losses, Couture is considered a legend of the sport yet his record looks hauntingly similar to Phil Baroni's.

    Who is the most talented, overall fighter of the P4P list? Usually that list consists of GSP, Fedor, Anderson, and BJ Penn. Who is great in several aspects of MMA? Who is the most well rounded? Who is considered the top fighter in multiple arts? My answer, even before Diego, BJ Penn. BJ is widely considered to have ELITE level BJJ. Widely considered to have perhaps the best takedown defense in MMA. Widely considered to have some of the best boxing in MMA, as even stated by Freddie Roach. Now add that to his new gas tank, his new strength and conditioning program, and your finally seeing the results. When have you ever seen a 5 round fight, that took place on it's feet for it's entire duration, and the champion only takes 8 freaking strikes. EIGHT! Nearly 25 minutes against a clear cut number one contender, he only took 8 strikes, the guy is simply amazing.

    You look at each fighter and their weight class. Fedor at Heavyweight. Could he stand with Rogers, Overeem, or Kongo for 25 minutes straight and still win the fight? Could he wrestle with Cain, Brock, or Carwin for 25 minutes straight and still win the fight? Could he BJJ roll with Nog, Mir, or Werdum for 25 minutes straight and still win the fight? I would answer, NO, NO, and NO. You could find certain styles in each weight class that could defeat GSP, Fedor, or Anderson. Certain guys are much more talented than those champions in certain aspects of the game. However, BJ is different. I can't find you a guy at 155 who has better BJ. I can't find you a guy at 155 who has better Striking. I can't find you a guy at 155 who is going to be able to take down BJ Penn and hold him for 25 minutes. The guy is simply better than everyone at his weight class AT EVERYTHING, and it's in my eyes the deepest class in MMA. He's the most well rounded, elite level fighter in the game, hands down in my opinion.
  4. itadakimasu New Member

    One thing that keeps BJ from being top pound for pound, is that we saw him move up to challenge GSP and get crushed.

    Anderson Silva on the otherhand, move up and embarrassed Forrest Griffin who was the champ not too long ago ( i know the 205 is a pick-em division) but... I think Anderson could rule the 205 division the same as the 185 division he's currently ruling over.

    I think Anderson would murder GSP if he moved up to challenge him.

    BJ made me a fan last weekend and he is one of the greatest of all time, but I don't think he's top P4P. Greatest 155lb fighter? Sure, go ahead... but not P4P
  5. Fedorfan New Member

    I just got done listening to Tuesday's pocast and was rooting GG along almost the entire argument btwn who's more dominant Fedor or BJ. Marc has been a Fedor hater since the day he started and was talking about him from day 1 when he was on the raido and I always remembered that. His view on Fedor is about as Jaded as Dana's was when he was in Affliction and couldn't get him.I had almost every point in my head that GG said and no matter what anything thinks to me it all comes down to who fought the best fighters overall and who dominated them. The answer:, Fedor. Fedor beat cro-cop when he was looked at as indestructible at the time and noone had figured out a way to beat him, whooped big nog in his prime twice, KO'd AA when he was ranked #2 in the world and has never lost at all. THe only arugment anyone can really argue about is that BJ is more skillful as a defensive fighter because he very rarely gets cut or hit and fedor is like Gatti where he bleeds as soon as he walks in the ring, but at the end of the day Fedor fought the best in his time and beat him and beat them when he was on his way up in MMA. BJ is way more established in MMA and been in the game a lot longer than Fedor and everytime he tries to challenge someone bigger than him he loses usually. Fedor always fights guys bigger than him and destroys them. So if you want to talk about hoiw GSP is probaly 185lb during fight time against a BJ that is proabbly 165lb at fight time, that's only a 20lb weight difference. Fedor always is fighting people with way more than 20lbs weigh advnatage on him and always wins. Hence, Fedor is the best until someone tests him or beats him. Until then it's pointess to me to argue fighters like BJ, Anderson, and GSP who all had losses by several people should be looked as better then FEdor IMO
  6. EAJames Member

    Take weight and records out of the picture, who's the most talented?

    Wrestling: GSP, BJ, Fedor, Anderson

    Wrestling defense: BJ, GSP, Fedor, Anderson

    Clinch: Anderson, Fedor, BJ, GSP

    BJJ: BJ, Anderson, Fedor, GSP

    Striking: Anderson, BJ, Fedor, GSP

    Fedor isn't more talented in any facet of the game than those guys in my opinion. I'll hand it to him, he still finds ways to win though, but he also takes the most damage in his fights than the other three. Talent wise though, the other three are above him in my mind.
  7. TitoOrtizIsAPunk New Member

    A lot of people have a different equation for P4P. Most put a lot of weight on recent fights(especially after an event, like GG said). I look at career wise, Fedor has yet to taste defeat. In a sport where anything can happen and has happened, it has yet to happen to Fedor. Silva losing to Chonan, GSP losing to Hughes and Serra, I mention those becasue at the same time Fedor began his rise to fame by beating Nog for the second time. Until he is beaten he will remain my #1 in P4P and G.O.A.T.

    BJ is one bad mother f---er but when he fights guys bigger than him he is not as dominant. Fedor constantly fights guys bigger than him and f---ing dominates them.

    Marc does seem to be a Fedor hater, very quick to jump on the Brock bandwagon tough, must be sipping that UFC kool-aid.
  8. GorgeousGeorge Moderator

    "take away wins and losses"?

    that's like saying, take away takedown defense and bjj skills and let's only focus on wins and losses along with one punch ko power.

    this whole game has to do with wins and losses. that's why we watch. if fedor and brock ever fight, ain't no one throwing out the win and loss there to talk about their individual talents.

    the 87 georgetown hoyas were more talented than villanova's team but any of them would trade all that praise for the national championship trophy. 05 trojans had way more talent than texas and still found a way to lose the big game. as an sc fan, that night still haunts me. i sure don't take comfort in knowing that we had more nfl players come from that team than the longhorns did.

    cmon now!
  9. EAJames Member

    Yes, take away wins and losses, when considering talent you judge on talent, not record. You can say Manning is the most talented quarterback, but he doesn't have the best record, does he? Brady has 3 superbowls, Manning only has one, but does that mean Brady is more talented? No.

    I consider pound for pound, overall talent regardless of weight class. Brock is only 4-1 and Fedor is 31-1, so should Brock not be considered on Fedor's talent level because of his record? Record isn't relevant, talent is. I'm not going to hold Andersons losses from 5 years ago when evaluating his talent, that'd be absurd. He's a much better fighter now, same with BJ. I'm not going to discredit BJ for losses at a weight class higher, he's challenging himself because he's so dominate at 155.

    Shane Carwin is 11-0, he's undefeated, if wins and losses are the end all be all than why isn't he in the pound for pound list?

    Im basing my opinions off talent. Who's the most gifted, talented, well rounded fighter regardless of weight. BJ, GSP, Fedor, and Anderson. If Frank Mir fights Brock again, is Brock 100% going to win because Mir has more career losses? No. People improve, you compare how their skills match up, not their record. What say you
  10. I_NO_Kung-Foo New Member

    How much has BJ been outweighed when he moved up in weight classes? Did Hughes, Machida, JSP, and Pulver outweigh him that much?

    Top fighter at 155, sure, he's on a 2 fight win streak.

    But how his he top P4P when he loses fights when he actually does move up in weight?

    Do you have to disregard his record and just "imagine" him fighting in a higher weight class?
  11. srdafish New Member

    When has Fedor ever fought anybody bigger than him that is somewhat close to his talent level? The answer is never.

    BJ Penn went up in weight and fought the #1 WW in the world.....TWICE, he went up and owned Hughes and then went up and lost to GSP because he's a cheater (don't deny it, rules wouldn't change if he was innocent). He also lost to Hughes after owning him again for 2 rounds and a bulls--- decision against GSP. Oh and he fought Lyoto when Lyoto was at HW, after Lyoto knocked out Rich Franklin and gave Lyoto his toughest fight until Shogun.

    Say what you want about wins and loses, if you watch the fights and analyze each fighters skill sets there is no f---ing way you can say anybody has a better skill set than BJ Penn.

    Also Fedor's biggest wins have all come by decision, the same could be said about GSP, that is not dominate no matter how you slice it. Want to be the P4P best fighter in the world? Finish everybody and I mean f---ing everybody you fight at your natural weight class, until anybody does that BJ Penn is the P4P best.

    Don't even f---ing start talking up AA as one of Fedor's biggest wins I will smack the s--- out you next time I see you, that includes GG.
  12. srdafish New Member

    BJ has lost 1 time in his career at 155 pounds and that was to Jens way back, so I'm not sure where you get "at 155 pounds he has a 2 fight win streak".

    BJ's frame is perfect for 163 pounds. GSP is more like 180 at the least and Anderson is 195. Fedor is 230 and is the only one that can actually fight at his natural weight and he fights far less talented fighters than the other 3.

    If you can't rank BJ at the top of P4P who can you rank there? Damn sure can't rank GSP there because he is as big or bigger than everybody in his division. Can't be Fedor because the talent of the bigger guys he fought is complete s---. Only guy that has gone up and won is Anderson, so you have Anderson #1?
  13. srdafish New Member

    Oh and GG your argument that "he has never lost" is out the window when you compare the skill sets of the guys he fought compared to the other guys, especially BJ Penn. GSP has more skill than every one of Fedor's opponents combined save Nog and CroCop. Where are all of these awesome wins? They aren't f---ing there, the guy is living off his 2 wins over Nog and will for the rest of his career while fighting bums and will continue to have uneducated fans swinging from his nuts.

    2 wins don't make a career that's for damn sure.
  14. srdafish New Member

    One last thing ( maybe), stop with the s--- about "Fedor beat 6 former UFC champs" bulls---. He beat them yes but did it a long f---ing time from when they were actually UFC champs. Tim was 1-2 going into the fight with Fedor, but keep spouting off about the 6 former UFC champs nonsense even though it makes it look like he beat them when they were at the top, which about as far away from the truth as one can get.


  15. srdafish New Member

    This thread just got owned by slick rick da fish
  16. EAJames Member

    Two quick points.

    Losses shouldn't be the end all be all in mma rankings. For instance, Serra knocked out GSP and went from being outside the top ten to being the number one ranked welterweight in the world, fast foward to today and he's once again not ranked two fights later. One win or win victory shouldn't determine a fighters placement. It's like if Fedor lost people would drop him from the P4P rankings. But Why? He's still the same fighter, has the same talent, so we throw our everything he's accomplished and forget all of his abilities based off perhaps being caught in one single fight? Makes no sense, record isn't as relevant as people think.

    Secondly. Look at BJ Penn at 155. He dominates Ask Gomi, Pulver, Din, Sherk, Florian, Joe Stevenson, or Diego. Those were all top ten guys and BJ made then look out of their league. BJ wins those fights, leaves no doubt, and more importantly takes little to no damage. Diego fight? 5 Rounds, got his 8 times, that's like once every 3 minutes. He doesn't take damage at 155, his natural weight. Fedor? Remember his face after the Lindland fight? Cro Cop fight? Brett Rogers fight? Remember Fujita rocking him? Arlovski picking him apart? Randleman slamming him on his head? Hunt and Coleman slicing through his guard? Granted he still wins, I give him that, he takes damage and BJ doesn't.

    The whole point of fighting is to inflict as much damage as possible and take as little as possible, right? Who does it better in their respective weight classes, BJ or Fedor? Pretty east, Baby J [\B]
  17. buffaloblue Well-Known Member

    P4P is if everyone was the same weight who would win.

    Imo BJ would.

    BSP wouldnt be as effective if he didnt have 20 or so pounds on him.

    Fedor would be lower on the totem pole. The Hw division is exponientially less talented on the whole imo.

    Anderson vs BJ striking would be fun. But anderson is natural around the 205 to 210 mark.

    GSP around 185.

    BJ is naturally around 160 to 165 tops and if he wanted to go to 145 he could.

    Anderson couldnt do 170, GSP couldnt do 155. They are at the lowest weight class possible, BJ is not. That makes WW his 3rd weight class most likely (Andersons would be HW and GSP's would be LHW).

    Imo Bj is the best P4P but these debates in all reality never lead to an end game.
  18. smfowns4 Well-Known Member

    BJ Penn

    That's my order, I've explained it all too much to explain it again
  19. TitoOrtizIsAPunk New Member

    What? BJ Penn agrees with me :eek:
  20. srdafish New Member

    Come on if you asked BJ Penn who was the best fighter in the world he would say BJ Penn, we all know that.

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