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Harm None~~A Philosophical Question LONG

Last edited 10/23/2010

How deeply do you adhere to this principle? I'm sure it comes down to your own personal beliefs & values...but I'm curious about what you all think of this idea and how strictly you follow it.

I like the idea of interconnectedness, but I am not sure to what degree I want to live by this principle...???

Case in point---how about killing a bee in the house?

I have a pact with bees and spiders. If they don't bother me, I won't bother them. Wink

But there comes a time when inevitably, a stray bee gets inside the house either through an open door, or one finds its way into my screened porch. Or spiders get in overnight and set up shop in the corners of my bathroom.

My kids and husband are not allergic that I am aware of, and neither am I, so my normal plan of action when a stray bee is where it doesn't belong is to let it back out.

I will stand there with the door open, trying to get it to go outside...because I know bees serve a purpose and I don't want to needlessly kill them. 

But if it's an agressive bee such as a wasp...well, in that case it's either the bee or me. LOL

Most of the time I just let the spiders stay where they are.

I feel bad about trapping mice in the garage though I don't want them in house and in our food. I can buy humane traps that allow you to dump the mouse out in the woods somewhere without killing it...but then wouldn't the mouse probably just find its way back into my home unless I relocate it FAR away from my house?

Another scenario to ponder...but this one involves people!

In my former life Devil I went through a period of upheaval after my split with my church, right around the time of my divorce. I met and "ran around with" quite a few um, "colorful characters" who were kind of "questionable" for a period of a couple of years.

I look back upon that time now and wonder WTH was *I* thinking???


Some of the people I "ran" with did drugs. Not just weed, but heroin and cocaine. How does the harming none principle apply here? I am gathering that one of the rules would be that you do not harm yourself...wouldn't doing recreational drugs have the potential to bring harm not only to yourself but possibly others?

One of the people from my colorful past that I have lost touch with was a lady I will call Laura.

I really feel like she had a good heart in spite of outward appearances and/or behaviors. Heart

She was a thirty-ish divorced single mom to two, a boy and a girl. She had full custody and a deadbeat ex who was not involved in his children's lives. He paid no support and didn't care to have any kind of relationship with them.

Laura was a Pagan who dabbled in Wicca...she is actually the only Pagan that I have ever known IRL who was open about it. She attended a Unitarian Universalist church every Sunday and encouraged me to join her for Sunday services some time.

She was also a dominatrix. Tongue out 

She worked for an escort service that set her appointments for her, and she made enough money to live comfortably. Her appointments took place during weekdays so that she could "work" while her kids were in school.

Most, if not all, of her clients though were married men who were living out the fantasies that their wives would not help fulfill or that the wives did not wish to understand. Frown

Those that did come clean about being married told her why they were there.

Those that did not come clean about being married removed their wedding ring before the appointments, but the tan line left behind gave away that they were married, KWIM?

There were also those clients who simply did not discuss it that Laura was only left to assume about.

So how would the harm none principle apply here? Should Laura have been worried about the consequences of her actions harming the wives in the event that the wives found out about their husband's appointments with her? Or should Laura not have worried about anything but not harming the clients she saw?

Should she have been concerned about the harm that would be sure to come to her children if she was to be arrested for these services rendered? (An arrest in that town would be listed in the newspaper in the police blotter section for the world to read which I surmise would bring embarrassment and shame to her & her kids.)

She justified her job as better means to make money than waiting tables in some crappy bar....that it was a better schedule than retail work and more money in shorter hours meant that she was home for her children more...that everything she did was for her kids.

I just wonder at what point do you stop worrying about "doing harm" to the "other person"? Was Laura wrong for possibly breaking up a marriage/family due to her appointments with some guy...or was she simply "taking care of her own" the best way she knew how at the time and what happens after her appointments were over is none of her business?

I wonder what happened to Laura. She was talking about going to school to be a paralegal at some point...I wonder if she got out of "the biz" and went to school? I lost touch with her when I moved a few years ago. The last time I saw her was when I babysat her kids...she said she would call me the next time she needed me and I never heard from her again. I have been unable to find her on FB. I hope she is doing well.

Wink Now that I've completely boggled your mind, I will be quiet and wait for your feedback. Wink




Married mommy to the Magnificent Seven...three boys, three girls and one dragonfly

The Dragonfly Story

Comments (19)

1 2
Posted 10/23/2010

Umm... I couldn't read your whole post right now, but I skimmed most of it. I thought I'd go ahead and be honest, there.

I believe in the "harm none" rule, but I feel like there are exceptions in some cases. I don't think we can go through life without ever harming somebody/ something. Sometimes it has to be done, even if it is unknowingly or unwillingly.

For me, personally, I think of it as being respectful to others and never doing anyone harm when you can find a way around it. Sometimes we're not able to find a way around hurting somebody's feelings, and sometimes we have to cause physical harm to others to in self-defense.

When it comes to causing harm to oneself or to others who want to be harmed, that's where it really gets tricky for me. On one hand, I can see how it would go against the rule. On the other, it almost seems as if it being "okay" to the one being harmed makes it an exception. That's where my biggest confusion comes from with the "harm none" rule.


Psst... I like to Pin.

Posted 10/23/2010

^^^^ I concur with billibearmomma. I take it as being respectful to all things. If there is a critter in the house, and I cannot avoid hurting it, I will apologize to it for what I have to do and then get it over as quickly as possible. 

Pertaining to people though, it gets trickier for me. I believe that as a Wiccan, I am supposed to be neutral. Unfortunately you can't have the good without the bad. I understand the rule of 3, but I also believe that b/c we are supposed to be neutral that you cannot bless if you don't know how to hex. Why? How do you know what is good, if you don't know what is bad?

If I am about to do a blessing or hexing... I literally sit down while I am planning it out and think, "Who is this going to hurt/help someone? What could the consequences be? Is this worth the risk?"

As for your dominatrix friend, you would have to ask her. For myself, I cannot justiy doing it by my personal beliefs, for money, etc. However, she may have had another reason besides the one she gave you. 

I have to say mymymaia7, I really enjoy your posts, they always make me use my brain. Thank you so much for that. Smile

mymymaia7 · Original Poster
Posted 10/23/2010

billibearmomma thanks for responding. Embarassed I'm sorry...I should have prefaced that post with a warning that it is long. I can get really wordy sometimes. Can you tell I enjoy writing? Tongue out I'd love to hear more of your thoughts if you get the chance to come back and reread. Smile

eemmlette Wink I'm glad that you enjoy reading my posts! I enjoy reading yours too!




The Dragonfly Story

Last edited 10/23/2010

My personal take and follow-through on it, is that I only utilize harm when it comes to defending myself or my family. That applies to people as well as animals/insects/arachnids.

Spiders are welcome to live anywhere in my house that they like, except my childrens' rooms...unless they are harmful spiders.  Bees honestly scare the heck out of me, because I currently live in an area known for "killer bees" (not the area listed in my profile, that's where I grew up, not where I live now).  I have to kill bees if they don't vacate premises, same for other stinging insects.  If I ever see a scorpion, I am going to beat that poor thing to death with a shoe, I shamefully admit it.  I might apologize afterwards, I don't know, LOL.

With people, I try to give them a spiritual "urge" to move on to something else and quit harming whoever they're bothering.  I have to get aggressive with it sometimes, but only when they have been aggressive themselves, and as I see it, then they are deserving of what happens to them.

I can't think of any other situations where I personally might bring harm to someone.  I keep to myself, I don't gossip, I am honest, and if I know that I'm able to help someone who needs it, I do.



Mom to 3 wonderful boys!

Last edited 10/24/2010

I try to live with the "harm none" rule but.... I have to admit like you other ladies, if it's in my house and a potential threat to my little ones... well, there all bets are off.

Last week there was a mouse living in some insulation in our shed. My DH came in to get me to show me as it was running back and forth along the back wall of the shed. I ran outside calling "how cute!!!" so I could take a look. But I do admit, there is a mouse trap in the house as I have found mouse poo in my "music room" downstairs. I can't have them living inside due to hanta virus and such.

Spiders are allowed in the basement, no problem, they kill the other insects for me. But upstairs, that gets iffy. It's kind of a no-see, no-touch philosophy upstairs. If I don't see them, I'll leave them alone, however if they fall on my head in the middle of the night... well.... they're toast. I used to kill all seen spiders upstairs but we get flies in the house quite frequently due to the pet cages (rabbit & chinchilla) so I try to leave them be to catch the flies for me. I've decided however the next pet I get will be an anteater or venus fly trap.... lol.

Any other insects... they die if they are upstairs and in the basement, they die if they surprise me. I know, a life is a life, but... well... they outnumber me by quite a bit.

I don't however like the idea of anyone killing outside of their home. My father lives on a farm and it's a major issue when he calls and tells me about how he shoots gophers with a bb gun, or teachs my little brother how to kill animals. I've hung up on him more than once during these recitations.

I'm a meat-eater though, and I believe that killing is natural and can be done in the right circumstances. If you plan to use everything, then fine.. If you're killing for sport though, I don't agree with that. Hunting to me is fine if you're using the kill for food, clothing, etc, but if you're just hunting to say "I killed a bear/deer/moose/elk, etc..." well... I'm gonna be pretty angry.

Harm none is a great philosophy but I don't plan to go vegan any day soon... so if that makes me hypocritical, then I guess so be it... Smile

But I do feel that there are ways to achieve those goals without going against nature.... such as, if my father does have a rodent problem on his farm, well there's plenty of farmers who have cats for this, or my in-laws dogs have always been very good at catching pests in their home. Or my husband and I trained once in falconry years ago and one day planned to own birds of prey which would be a natural way to kill the gophers which would not go against the goddess. Nature is cruel but no where near as cruel as some people.


Samantha married to Jason

DD Liriel born 12-2008, DS Gabe born 05-2010

Posted 10/24/2010



This is true for me, as well. I try to give thanks for the life of the animal I'm eating, even though I'm not the one who killed it. I'm okay with hunting (I've even gone in the past), but I feel that the animal should be killed for food and any other parts should be used if possible.


Psst... I like to Pin.

Posted 10/24/2010

I love this post!  There is reflected in it various depths of the understanding of the rule.  I am not Wiccan, but I do follow the rule to some extent.  Here is my perspective. 

First I do my best not to harm myself.  That can be a challenge in itself sometimes because it can be broken down to even caffeine if one is so inclined.  So I try and listen to my body.  Secondly, since I am responsible for my children who cannot defend themselves, I will at all costs protect them from harm.  My husband is of a slightly different view, so I leave him to himself but if I see that his behavior is harming himself or us I will speak up.  So in essence I do protect him to some extent. 

People, I do feel have to make their own decisions.  I could not be a dominatrix personally because I do not wish to intentionally cause others pain even if they are asking for it.  But I also cannot really hold judgement on someone who does because I also know the difficulty of trying to be financially independent with children in a patriarchal society.  The cards almost must be stacked just right it seems.  Now, if my husband were to go to a dominatrix, first I would question his need because honestly it seems like a lack of love for self and it doesn't seem healthy.  Then I would have an issue with it because it would cause me emotional pain and his choice would bring something into my life that I do not want to be a part of which causes me harm.  Fortunately, he doesn't like pain. 

As far as other species, they can live outside.  I don't condone stomping on ants.  If critters enter my home unwelcome, then they can expect to be eliminated.  I will usually tell them to leave and then if they don't I will apologize for what I must do.  And then they return to the Earth.  I do feel bad, but I do not feel comfortable bunking with things that could easily hurt me or the kids. I do not agree with pesticide usage however.  My husband like to kill wasps that live outside.  In my way of thinking the outside is their space and I will try and stay out of their way.  I expect the same kind of respect from them. 

Hunting.  We hunt and eat meat.  We do not trophy hunt.  In processing the meat, I light a candle and bless the animal for it's gift of food for our family.  Also, I send seeds with my husband in a pouch so that when he takes an animal off the land, he puts something back for the others.  

It is a beautiful grey area isn't it?      

Posted 10/24/2010

This is a toughie for me.

I'm generally all about no hunting/no unnecessary killing unless it's for a useful purpose and all parts will be used - like people who hunt for food and then continue to use the remainder of the animal, like a PP mentioned. To me, that is acceptable, and people who hunt like that typically do so with a certain respect for nature and the cycle of life. I'm really not a fan of trophy hunting, and while I'm not about to make a fuss about it, I'm not going to do it myself, or teach my children that it's okay or acceptable, because to me, it isn't.

On the other hand, we have a rule at our house - bugs and rodents are not to be seen. If we think we have mice, we will do a humane trap and release them elsewhere (often a ride to the park is involved). Bugs are another story; spiders that remain unseen may continue as they please, but bugs that make themselves known are fair game. Unfortunately, there are too many potential diseases and problems brought in by insects that I can't bring myself to reason with. Thankfully, I've only ever had one ant problem that was quickly solved, and a few spiders here and there. I have no problem with spiders or what they do, but DH is afraid of them - rather like I'm afraid of anything that buzzes and stings/bites - so they tend to be disposed of rather quickly. It's one thing in our house that we can't/don't compromise on. I will run screaming away from something that buzzes and stings, and DH will faint at a spider. So between the two of us there's no choice, haha.

However, I do my best otherwise to ensure that we follow the "harm none" rule. We're not vegetarians or vegan, but we do respect where our food comes from and how it's raised, so we make sure that we're always trying to buy organic, farm-raised meats that were brought up humanely. When our children are bigger, we will teach and show them where their food comes from - and if they choose not to continue eating meat, that's fine, too. ODS has a basic understanding that the chicken in a farm and the chicken on his plate are kind of the same thing, but he doesn't quite get it yet, and at three, I wouldn't expect him to fully understand.

This rule is actually part of the reason I quit my last job. It paid decently, but not unless I was screwing over people every day, day in and day out (never mind that the "screwing over" would have been illegal). It was supposedly the only way to get ahead in that company, and I'll tell you right now, I will never support them again, and I have learned from the lessons I was taught there. What they were doing to people was wrong and only really beneficial for the employee. So there you have it, I'm looking for a new job now - because I can't possibly bring myself to do that every day.


Kay (27) + Colin (30) since 2001 = Gabe (6), Alex (4), and Elliot born 1/3/14!
Crunchy Doctor Who-loving pagan geeks!

Posted 10/25/2010

I think that the "harm none" principle encourages people to think things through a little farther than they normally would. Of course, we can't all be perfect & we don't all see things the same way, but all in all it's much better than the "repent for your sins" crap that you get from Christianity that allows people to do whatever they feel like at the time b/c "I can repent later" & then the damage is already done. I honestly don't care if you're "good with God now", if you killed my family, I will not forgive you b/c you didn't have the foresight to realize it was wrong. I know that that's not how repenting is supposed to work, but you'd be surprised to know how many people really use that as a crutch to do drugs/drive drunk/whatever b/c they can ask forgiveness later. Such a cop out.

I think that if you do your best to analyze whether or not what you're doing is causing real harm, then that's all we can ask.



Posted 10/25/2010

I don't put any kind of weight on modern philosophies when it comes to spirituality.  Is there any proof of a "harm none" edict that our ancestors lived by?  Not that I know of, and paganism is supposed to be the continuation of ancient practices.  Your friend Laura did what she had to do, so good for her.  If you gotta kill a bug in the house, go for it.  If you can avoid it, take the thing outside.

Follow your gut.  There's nothing wrong with the thought behind "harm none"....it's a good guideline....but it comes too close to the Ten Commandments for my comfort.  Don't let some supposed spiritual rule (cut from whole cloth) dictate your life.

What's on your mind?

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