Atheists and Islam

No God, not even Allah


See article

Readers' comments



Muslims are religious, because they have nothing else

Its the same reason that Americans in the old manufacturing centres are religious

A bleak life, and terrible outlook for the future means that people begin to hope and pray that there is something beyond this existence.

The only cure for religiosity is economic development. Give these people something to live for in this life, and they won't try to blow themselves into the next.

Royallat in reply to Heyer

"America's old manufacturing centers are religious" I assume you are referring to the midwest? In actuality the southern states are much more religious. And to state that people in the midwest have a bleak life and nothing else is a very ignorant statement.

Anatolexo in reply to Heyer

Excuse me...? Gulf Arabs have been the wealthiest people on the Planet since oil started to be commercially exploited on a large scale. And you say they have "nothing else"? Let me remind you that the 9/11 hijiackers were Saudis. How educated are you, actually?

Mark S. Oller in reply to MySetDancer

The 9/11 murderers belonged to the PNAC, including Vice President Cheney, and none were Saudi Arabian. Many of the Arab kamikaze terrorists, on the other hand, are still alive along with the supposed pilots. Search for 9/11 hijackers alive and PNAC members list. This link is from the BBC:

The pilots and the planes

When we put the results of the SSDI and the FAA database together,
this is what we have.

John Alexander Ogonowski, pilot, apparently STILL ALIVE.
Thomas Francis McGuinness Jr, copilot, apparently STILL ALIVE.
N 334AA Serial 22332
Registration: Cancelled/ plane destroyed on 1/14/2002

Charles Frank Burlingame, pilot, DECEASED as of September 11, 2001.
David Michael Charlebois, copilot, apparently STILL ALIVE.
N 644AA Serial 24602
Registration: Cancelled/ plane destroyed on 1/14/2002

Jason Matthew Dahl, pilot, apparently STILL ALIVE.
Leroy Wilton Homer Jr, copilot, apparently STILL ALIVE.
N 591UA Serial 28142
Registration: Valid/ PLANE STILL ABLE TO FLY.

Victor Saracini, pilot, DECEASED as of September 11, 2001
Michael Horrocks, copilot, DECEASED as of September 11, 2001
N 612UA Serial 21873
Registration: Valid/ PLANE STILL ABLE TO FLY.

jaysonrex in reply to Heyer

It is very difficult, if not outright impossible, to teach primitive people anything related to the 21st century when they insist on living in the 7th. All the excuses will not help make Islam an acceptable ideology. People simply hate the proximity of Muslims, their mentality and their way of life. Sorry.

Norman Hanscombe in reply to Heyer

Heyer, economic development isn’t a ‘cure’ for religion. It merely converts our evolved propensity to feel a need to believe in something from theistic to non-theistic dreams. Current forms of this propensity running riot among the Chattering Classes include the various politically correct dogmas which ‘progressives’ have granted sacred cow status.


There are two things which need to be discussed here. Firstly, if you hate Jews its called antisemitism and is a taboo and is punishable by law. my question is if you hate GOD or does not believe in him why can there be no law to punish that act? Human rights and intolerance has been spoken a lot in this article, what about intolerance towards islam? if Hitler kills Jews, germans are not labelled extremist, why then few guys in 2 billion muslim populations do some acts of extremism and you label all 2 billion people as intolerant and extremist? is this not double standards or injustice or against human rights ?

Secondly, if a society should be intolerant it should be intolerant not only to atheists but to everyone. Why then we cannot openly support Hitler? why is scarf banned in certain european countries? is this not intolerance? please explain. Bias begets bias and prejudice. If you want to be biased, its ok. Kindly don't blame Muslims for that only.

extremism is dangerous, not only if its on religious side but on the secular side too. its not only about Islamic, christian , Judaic or hindu extremism, secular extremism is same in the category. One should have the courage to speak whole truth and not half the truth as half truth falls withing definition of lies. Half truth is Muslim extremism is wrong. fine full truth is every kind of extremism is wrong even secular extremism which is shown by random acts of banning circumcision, scarf etc. why don't u speak against that, if you are just and fair?

Matt White in reply to MJPaul

First (at least in the United States) it is not punishable by law to hate Jews. In a free society your are free to hate anyone or believe anything, no matter how how horrible your beliefs may be. Second, this article is not being intolerant of Islam, it is simply being critical of societies that choose to imprison or kill people for what they believe in. The Economist has routinely criticized countries such as France that have passed laws prohibiting wearing a burqua and the Economist opposes efforts to restrict the building of an Islamic Center near the World Trade Center site. I think all the article is saying is that it is wrong to punish people for simply believing in something other people don't agree with. Third, being an Atheist is not analogous to hating Jews, or hating anyone for that matter. Atheists simply believe God does not exist, just like certain religions believe God exists. However, atheism does not espouse hatred to a particular person, group or set of beliefs,

Larissa Flister in reply to MJPaul

Saying: "Firstly, if you hate Jews its called antisemitism and is a taboo and is punishable by law. my question is if you hate GOD or does not believe in him why can there be no law to punish that act?" is akin to saying that if you do not believe in Judaism, that too should be punished by law. Following that definition, everyone who does not believe in the religion favored by the State should be in jail.

I can't even comment on the ignorance involved in comparing hatred towards a group of people and not sharing the same belief as that group of people. If you cannot grasp the difference between the two, perhaps you should go back to elementary school.

MySetDancer in reply to MJPaul

I get tired of these kind of juvenile arguments, justifying one kind of wrong because of some other perceived wrong. Situational ethics,like your post seems to advocate, is wrong and justifies nothing. It is itself a type of deception, if I can use that word.

Unlike most other non-believers, I have read much of the "Book" and some jihadist literature. I understand the link between these murderous acts and the demographic behind it. I understand the passive acceptance of it by the majority of that demographic. TE will not permit a rational discussion of this topic so I will just say that if a people passively watch evil done in their name, then everyone else will interpret that as acceptance and/or support of the evil act. That interpretation is probably accurate. The push-back is rational. That is hardly "bias."

MJPaul in reply to Matt White

Thanks a lot for your comments. If i accept your argument that its not punishable to hate Jews, could anyone in media say holocaust never existed? or Nazism was right? or Adolf Hitler was a great man? Why is there no freedom of speech in that matter? Has Economist ever published such article for such matters? kindly let me know the reference for that. I am not against Jews or atheist by any means. everyone has the right to believe whatever he wants, but he is cannot be allowed is to openly condemn the beliefs of other people in public media weather it be Jews, Christian or Muslims or Atheists because hatred begets only hatred and it ultimately leads to violence.

What is your definition of hatred? if i publicly say GOD does not exist and you say its not against the beliefs of Muslims, Christian and Judaism then what is hatred other than that? If you are atheist, fine, we respect your beliefs kindly keep it to yourself, as i am a Muslim and i keep my beliefs to myself then nobody will punish you for that. its not a crime to believe in anything, problem is that when you go to public and try to prove atheism is correct and God does not exist, which is not freedom of speech, its anti-theism and hatred to beliefs of not only Muslims bu all major religion of the world.

jaysonrex in reply to MJPaul

In case you did not notice, Jews, all 15 million of them (in a world of 7000 million souls), are NOT the topic. And we don't NEED to discuss anything at all because, after all, we are not Muslims that have to do what Koran (and related holy writs) mandates. And neither are we all Christians that for over 1700 years pray to Jesus while presecuting and killing His people. As soon as you put your head in order, do come back. Really.

jaysonrex in reply to Mark S. Oller

Up to a point, "the Jewish propaganda apparatus [is] trying to hide" that Mark S. Oller is a demented antisemite that hides behind a computer affraid to face ... you know who. What a demeaning posture!

MJPaul in reply to jaysonrex

As I already mentioned in the post, I am not against Jews. I don't hate them and i am against every injustice that ever happened to them. I was just replying that to the comment posted that the Economist supports freedom of speech and treats everybody equally. I am not against Atheists either. Just when you label attacking other people's belief in public media as "Freedom of speech" and argue that there should be no punishment for that, this is unfair and unjust.

Secondly , since you have initiated another topic which is not relevant here, I will like to reply that there should be no double standard for the "freedom of speech" and if speaking against Holocaust is a taboo why should speaking against Prophet Muhammad(sw) in particular and Islam in general should not be ?

MJPaul in reply to paulo freire

There are two things here. Firstly, question is not weather you hate sth or not.your own belief is irrelevant here,you can believe whatever you want to believe. if you don't want to believe in GOD its fine.I am not trying to convince to believe in GOD and never will especially on public media cause this might hurt other atheists. thing is don't try to convince others of your believes on public media. If you do, you are indirectly attacking others' believes. respect other people's belief so that they respect yours.What would happen if you go to any Royal Palaces of England and abuse the queen? you think they will respect your freedom of speech and let you abuse their queen? or if you say to the queen i don't believe you are queen and why should you be queen there can be no queen? Should they listen to you?

alandeon2 in reply to MJPaul

But you’re missing the point. The queen DOES exist. I can see, hear, smell, touch and (heaven forbid) taste her. SHE is real. On the other hand, “god” cannot be experienced in ANY of those ways. God is in the minds and imaginations of people with no connection to reality. Surely if I’m wrong you can prove it?

You asked “my question is if you hate GOD or does not believe in him why can there be no law to punish that act? “

You DO realize that Atheist don’t “hate” anything that they deem to be imaginary, right? We may think that the human THINKING those thoughts is an idiot, but we certainly don’t “hate” something that only exists in your mind. So, to your question, do you understand that trying to impose laws that protect your imaginary being from insult is kinda stupid on your part? After all, this being is said to be all-powerful and Omni-potent. Are you saying that “he” needs the help of the courts in these matters? (or Jihadists and crusaders for that matter?). Isn’t that sounding a bit like you trying to shore up the crumbling supports that hold up your imaginary being because the only thing that can do anything in this world has to be done by human believers??

You said “If you are atheist, fine, we respect your beliefs kindly keep it to yourself, as i am a Muslim and i keep my beliefs to myself.....”

Ahhh, if only that were true. Do you really think that atheists go out a START those conversations?? No, those conversations and debates are only at the insistence of the religious who continually spout off how we are apostates and blasphemers and that their religion is the “one true religion” and they know god exists and are very sorry to hear that as a non-believer we are going to “hell” etc..... Even yourself, you came here to comment on your perceived “intolerance of Islam” (your words).You are NOT keeping it to yourself, as you stated are you?, which allows me to freely comment on something YOU said. See? That’s how it works.

You also said “problem is that when you go to public and try to prove atheism is correct and God does not exist,”

You will find no atheists attempting to “prove” “god does not exist”. THAT is not atheism. An Atheist finds that the proofs you have given for gods is lacking and they therefore DO NOT believe. We have no more interest in proving the non-existence of something imaginary than we have interest in NOT collecting stamps. When YOU “go to the public” with proofs of gods that are ridiculous, WE have no problem telling you why those proofs are indeed ridiculous.

To be honest, I don’t have to respect your beliefs. Those beliefs are what have allowed people to kill in the name of god for centuries. The older I get, the less tolerance I find myself to all the crazies in this world, Even if they call themselves “moderates”. Maybe it’s time to NOT respect your beliefs any further. Maybe then, will you work to reign in the “extremists” in your religion...


Ok, for starters atheism is not a religion, because by definition a religion has to have a belief in one or more gods. A-theism means lack of god, at best a philosophy. Because philosophies are fluid and notoriously narrow, philosophies are given no recognition in a social or legal setting. Yes, the US has given religion-status to atheism, which is very ironic. Having said that, it's ridiculous for someone to be arrested for declaring what he/she believes in. But if you live in a country with restrictive laws , fight or try to influence a change of laws first. It can't be a mystery to this man that such a statement would get him in hot water....and now he's one lone guy going to jail, instead of part pf a movement to change the laws and the outlook....and why, because he wanted to "inform" people that there's no god in a country with explicit laws against it?

hmy_ in reply to Ikoiko

The US didn't give religious status to religion; it's just a religious classification. If I ask what religion you follow and you say 'none', then that's a perfectly valid answer. What else would they do?

If the US has given atheism religious status, when does every secular organization get tax exemption?

Norman Hanscombe

Unfortunately, while being an M.D. may make you 'happy' about engaging in discussion, it doesn't mean you have the prerequisite background for engaging "at the metaphysical plane" you mention.

Husam Aldahiyat




MJPaul in reply to Husam Aldahiyat

Husam I respect your comments and have no knowledge which persecution you have suffered from whom and in which circumstances. I condemn such acts. But i would like to respectfully disagree with your comments that "A Muslim delving in their religion and studying it will either become a salfist terrorist or an atheist ". have you even studied islam? Have you studied quran? what are your basis of such an extreme conclusion? if you are talking about blindly following some illiterate cleric, then this your mistake. No religion in the world teaches terrorist teachings, including islam. This so called jihad was "invented" during the Afghan war against Russia in 1980s by the CIA, they were "holy fighters" then. Osama bin Laden was trained by CIA. why then? why does your definition of "holy warriors" converted to terrorist in just a decade? cause your interests changed? any way such concepts have no place in islam. it never had and never will.

Koran is the guidance for those who want to take guidance from it. If you want to find fitna from it , its your option too. but atheism does not only negate Islam it negates all the religions in the world. by being atheist you are not outside Islam you are outside 95% people living on the planet. If we are against extremism cause it creates hatred and prejudice, so does atheism as it effects the sentiments of 95% people on the world.see the Hollywood movie "Contact" by Jodie Foster and you will get where i got this statistic of 95% people and it beautiful movie on the subject of atheism.Don't say now it was made also by the Muslims to spread extremism ;-).

Husam Aldahiyat in reply to MJPaul

So many things to say but I'll keep it brief.

MJPaul in reply to Husam Aldahiyat

I would like to answer briefly to your points:
- There is a visible contradiction in your first point "No one in their right mind could read Quran" which shows you did not even bother to read it once :-)and understanding and pondering is not even close.
- Secondly which Historian says that Prophet Muhammad (saw) plundered and murdered. See K Hitti,who is considered an authentic source on "History of Arabs" and so many other history books by western authors who are supposed to be neutral. See what they say about Prophet Muhammad. You mention one authentic source, you won't have any. you said 2 billion people were forced to believe by force? that must have been something or ain't it ;-)cause u cannot convert even one person by force and keep him and his family to such religion for 1400 years, or can you?

Moreover, God was also included in the teachings of Jesus Christ, Mosses, David you name it. All the prophets in the history of mankind taught about GOD. are they all lairs and cheaters? may be history books you are referring say that all the prophets are murderers and cheaters , so kindly mention the source. All the religions in the world teach peace and tolerance, what does atheism teach?
-your third point, name one salafi who is renowned scientist? their is no such thing as "moderatism" in islam. its either right and wrong. Salafism make up extremely small minority . By that standard as their are extremist in christianity, juidism and hinduism, will you render them extremist by the same standard?
-Now your last point,If what majority believes does not matter than this means democracy is a fallacy too? cause democracy means rule of majority?

To conclude i don't have time to waste either Mr.Husam. I don't want to prove you wrong. My point is that if your beliefs are important to you, so are mine to me. So if you want other people don't attack your believes, so do I. So live and let live. May Allah give guidance to us all. Ma'asslam ya sheikh

forsize in reply to MJPaul

the last thing in the world muslims do is let people live. it is by far at the moment the most active, intrusive, violent and hateful religion on the planet.

in fact the entire economist article is about how muslims are refusing to "let people live."

Scholar435 in reply to MJPaul

- Albert Hourani, "A History of the Arab Peoples" talks about how Muhamad murdered and plundered.

- " All the prophets in the history of mankind taught about GOD." Actually we don't know what any 'prophets' taught because the records of their teachings were compiled hundreds of years after their existence.

- "All the religions in the world teach peace and tolerance, what does atheism teach?" As this article mentioned, the teachings are open to interpretation, based on the person's motives. One can think of a proper Jihad as a war against the West, while another can think of it as a struggle against ill thoughts and submission to Islamic teachings. Atheism is not a school of thought, but a rejection in a belief in god. So by definition, it cannot teach anything.

- "Now your last point,If what majority believes does not matter than this means democracy is a fallacy too? cause democracy means rule of majority?" There are many forms of democracy across the world, but a proper form enshrines the principle of 'majority rule, minority protection.' Meaning that we can debate the proper way to live, but we cannot better our lives at the complete abuse of minorities. Just as an individual can be wrong, ten individuals can be wrong, and so can ten million. That's not surprising. That's why democracies have constitutions, so that we remember when legislating, that principles of freedom are the biggest priority.

MySetDancer in reply to MJPaul

What people choose to believe is, respectfully, none of your ** business and none of mine. The CIA did not invent Jihad or OBL. You are wrong on that point.

The most violent places in the world are almost always of a certain demographic, killing both their "own kind" and anyone who is "different." Middle East, certain parts of Africa and Asia. Oddly enough, the more secular the country, the less violence. Just a fact not an accusation.

And yes, I have read much of the "Book" and have read some jihadist literature, some over 100 years old. The call to dominate the world is clear (if you can read) and it is a bit of a Miracle (if I can use that word) that the "problem" is not larger than it is. I would urge everyone to read the "Book" or at least excerpts, and understand the issue more completely.

Best regards

MJPaul in reply to forsize

Yeah u are right forsize, Islam is the most hated religion and easy target for everyone these days. but to say violent, is not correct. Just tell me who started the First and Second World War and killed millions of people? were these muslims? who initiated the war on Iraq and said a lie about Weapons of Mass Destruction? were these Muslims? You are right, Its become a fashion to criticize everything about Islam sometimes with the shield of atheism and mostly without it. If Muslims were the most violent force on the earth, than you are talking about 2 billion people on the earth and this planet could not even survive because if they all decide to even kill 2 people , I guess the whole world would be destroyed. I dont need to say anything more about it.

MJPaul in reply to Scholar435

For your information, Kuran was not compiled hundreds of years after the teachings.It existed in the same form then, it exists in that form now and it will always exist in that form.How many plunderers and murderers you know who have almost half the world's population as followers? since you don't believe in any prophet , you would say things like that for other prophets too i am sure.

I agree Jihad is a struggle against ill thoughts and submission to Allah, it does not mean to wage war against West it never has and never will. but it says fighting in self-defense which what Islam did.

I agree majority rule and minority protection. we are debating or are we not with mutual are right there are constitutions, but what if the minority openly attacks the constitution and refuse to obey it? will you say state is abusing the rights of minorities?

Scholar435 in reply to MJPaul

The Koran consists of material from the Old and New Testament, along with some original ideas. Since the Bible itself was a compilation hundreds of years after the fact, the same would then be true for the Koran.

"How many plunderers and murderers you know who have almost half the world's population as followers?" Well, I already named one.

"what if the minority openly attacks the constitution and refuse to obey it? will you say state is abusing the rights of minorities?" In the American Constitution, there is a belief in a freedom of speech. That allows people to criticize and openly attack its principles, a freedom which most people cherish. Attacking the constitution, a set of ideas, does not harm anyone. The state has the responsibility to protect its citizens, and if a minority of people decided to take up arms to murder, then the state would be responsible for disarming them. I hope that answers your question.

pacifist99 in reply to Husam Aldahiyat

Naouzubillah naouzubillah,mind your tongue man.
Dont speak too much so that in the end you have to bear what you can never imagine.

May allah provide you with the true knowledge of ISLAM,
And regarding the prophet all that stuff that have you written is truly false.
You people are insane.


Atheists cowardly persecute Christians in America, Europe so 2, 3 years for their hatred is pretty fair.

Ikoiko in reply to guest-ljjalmm

Atheism is not a religion, given that a-theism means that it is godless...religion by definition requires a belief in god(s). So why would somebody want status of something he/she does not believe in? If you have beliefs about life, that's a philosophy, and that should not be reconized as anything more than one's weltanschauung.

Alex Kilgour in reply to MySetDancer

Atheists don't "force" their "beliefs" on anyone. For starters, Atheists don't have beliefs. They work from scientific understanding and observation, that is not a belief. Secondly, Atheists will use logic and science to refute insane claims by religious individuals.

Christians and Muslims (among other religions) threaten to kill you if you don't abide by their teachings. You can choose to not agree with it in your head, but don't dare to communicate that externally and you must obey whatever insane laws they decide to implement in the name of their god.

Please read

I would just like to clear something up given the amount of nonsense I have read here.
There are two sources of info in the Islamic religion.
1) The Quran. (Believed to be the actual words of God)
2) Written statements of what the prophet is said to have said in his lifetime. (Written much later after his death and with much inconsistency). I would argue heavily politically influenced.
The Quran says... "there is no compulsion in religion"
The politically influenced version says the opposite. Which happens miraculously to be a way to control the population.
As a neutral observer "what do u think Islam REALLY says"?

Please read in reply to alibengolly

The word of man cannot abrogate the words of God.

There is no compulsion in religion. Full stop.

If you want to go against the direct words of God, then fair enough.

You would have to take responsibility for all that results.

The Quran is 100% clear.

There is no compulsion in religion.

MySetDancer in reply to Please read

A book is not a religion, and a religion is not a book. What people do and say is the religion.

"Words of god?" Nonsense. Mind your own business and I will mind mine.

"Compulsion?" According to whom? Some ignorant fool? Just try.

"Go Against?" Which nutter decides that?

"Responsibility?" Sounds like a threat to shoot a little girl in the head. No! Wait! Didn't that just happen? What a cowardly and evil thing to do! (I had better buy a helmet!)

"Clear?" I have read much of it; Since 10 different readers have 10 different opinions, I would not use that word.

"Complusion?" Tell that to the hundreds of people killed weekly in sectarian violence in certain countries. We all know which ones. They are on the news every evening . . . All in the name of, well, you know.

I do not recognize the authority of this kind of thinking.

Please read in reply to MySetDancer

You are free to choose what u wish to believe.

No one is forcing u to believe anything.

You are only bound by the words of the quran if u believe they are the words of god.

Even then there is no compulsion to believe anything.

Its an oxymoron to force someone to stay within a religion if they dont believe in it.

Its a breach of human rights.

Y5w8uVKHhT in reply to Please read





And so, here is what Sahih Bukhari says about apostasy:

Bukhari (52:260) - "...The Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.' "


Bukhari (84:57) - "[In the words of] Allah's Apostle, 'Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.'"




So, given that the authentic hadiths advocate apostasy, with NO contradiction from the Quran, and given that both you and I believe it is a breach of human rights, would you still believe in the religion?


To the others, please upvote this post so that others can see, because this is a correction of the original "Please read" post.

Please read in reply to Y5w8uVKHhT

Nonsense. Your initial sentence proves my point.
Treason is a political Concept.
Forcing someone to stay a Muslim if they don't believe is a religious oxymoron.
Its also directly against the teaching of the Quran.

Alex Kilgour in reply to Please read

I'm going with the guy who has a page long dissertation detailing why you are wrong. If your argument can be summed up in a tweet-length post, you are on the wrong site.

You can sit there and repeat, again and again, that compulsion is wrong, and therefore does not happen, but that doesn't make it so. In Muslim nations people are compelled on a daily basis to follow Islamic teachings.

You can ignore reality, but reality won't ignore you.


When you talk of former Muslims then they are not Muslims. They were. Due to some circumstances the life becomes too much for these and then in the end ant religious person who was hoping to get some help from the creator no names , he saks , " Why I Why me " and then succumbs to the life of abnormalities but does not leave the religion in toto. These are in all the religions and they rebel not just with themselves but the world tat large blaming all but themselves and we have no idea why. The religion is very simple. Many get too much involved and fail to d=see the bounties of the precious gifts that is out there. They seek self sympathy and Allah cannot come and feed them. It like you can take a camel to the pond but cannot make him drink the way=ter. Many are born to fight but they fight for nothing. Taking few Taliban for example, if you tell me they are Mulsim they are not as the Muslim religion detest the killing but the Taliban kill. So where does the lost Allah come from? I thank you Firozali A.Mulla Life is to live and let live simple.




If there is NO PLACE for Jews, Hindus or Christians in the increasingly repressive and intolerant ( forget free!!!) Muslim World: how is the thought of TOLERATED Atheists anything but an ABSURDITY!! The situation is going to get MUCH MUCH WORSE before any toleration is considered!




metron1245 in reply to saudi-ex-mus

Congratulations as an ex-muslim! I think you need all the support you can get. You seem like a strong guy with common sense and I think you'll reach your goal if you stay calm. Its a pity if you have to leave your country, but in another country I think you'll feel free and maybe you can help other muslims to turn their back on islam? Thumbs up!

Mad Hatter in reply to saudi-ex-mus

My sympathy to you.

In the US - being an atheist is sometimes more problematic than being gay.

Here it is more subtle.

Hang in there - there are better places to be.

At least in your head you have it all figured out.

That's what counts.

TS2912 in reply to saudi-ex-mus

I do have quite a few atheist (ex-Muslim) friends and yes, it gets challenging on two fronts.

- On the legal front, one has zealots wanting to lynch you.

- The more subtle attack comes from the social front; one becomes an outcast, difficult to bear in predominantly Muslim societies

guest-ljjawws in reply to Mad Hatter

If you don't want to be harassed for being an Atheist then be Buddhist instead. It generally keeps the Christians at bay. All you have to believe to be Buddhist is: all that is held that arises is stressed, all that is held that arises is impermanent, all that is held is without self (essence). Easier to accept than the silly notion that the idea of God is worth consideration at all.
Of course, in the 1300s Islam overran India and killed all the Buddhists...
No essence. No permanence. No perfection.

Iceman0890 in reply to saudi-ex-mus

Saudi-ex-mus, seriously I think ur a Jew or a hater who is pretending to be an ex-muslim just to create a stigma among the believers.Good job trying to sell ur story but the bad news is im not buying it.

hmy_ in reply to Mad Hatter

Yeah, but in the US nobody will try to kill you for it. And something like half of under 30s with college degrees are non-believers, so assuming you're a younger working professional (someone in IT or engineering for example), it's a total non-issue.

I live in the southern US, and while religion is definitely prevalent, the in-your-face kind of religiosity seems to be a thing of the past. Maybe I'm just insulated from it, but I honestly feel like the outward nature of the pious is limited to politics these days, and it's dying out there too.

But of course, it's nearing Christmastime so the Salvation Army is out in force. I can live with them though; they're more about helping people than stoning them.

Kebne in reply to saudi-ex-mus

It seems as if you are locked in. If children are too intelligent to believe the same rubbish, you are stuck. I met one guy in Egypt, he had a shop there and when I asked him a question he became interested to talk more. He brought me into his tineiest corner of the shop and offered me a cup of orange tea. He had been abroad for some studies but now settled there, he could not tell or teach anybody of his findings since then he got severe problems. He was bright and intelligent but could not use his talent as he liked to do. He was frustrated.
With such policy, a country cannot develop further. Only if they find some valuables in the ground they could prosper. When that source become empty they have to go back to raising camels.
It is very strange that such basic knowledge has not yet reached enough many of their citizens? Who´s fault? Too few books available? Too hot weather? Where are all the clever females?

Mad Hatter



Then promise hell if they don’t believe in it..




Nice try, but the fact of the matter is that the Bolsheviks persecuted ALL religious denominations, regardless of political affiliation. That included Roman Catholics (especially), Jews and Muslims. Remember the Marxist slogan: "Religion is the opiate of the people." All religions were anathema to the communists.

I'm happy to go along with that; but the same argument can be applied to all the other sacred cows in our postmodern zeitgeist, including (and it’s a very partial list) fundamentalist ‘conservationists’, ‘human rights’ advocates, ‘Gaia’ followers, et al.
Western society may have lost God, but we’ve enthusiastically taken up a multitude of new faiths.

Eastern Block


Abulili in reply to Eastern Block

Christianity - Catholicism - does not say that you go to hell if you don't believe. I think you'll find much that will surprise you if you really tried to find out about that faith. I assume you are quite young, you still have time. It is eminently logical, and liberating. And never to be confused with some of its adherents or leaders, all of whom are fallible, no less than you and I.

Abulili in reply to Melissia

Not sure why you believe that. Jesus refers to it in several places. He also speaks of the devil more often than almost anyone else in the bible. And yet we may have hope that all will be saved. This is also orthodox (as in "correct") belief, by the way.

Melissia in reply to Abulili

Jesus does not speak of hell, an idea which was created after his death.

The bible mentions Hades and Tartarus, but of those, Hades is not really "hell' (Hades/Orcus was not a cruel god in Greco-Roman mythology-- in fact, Hades was rather altruistic by nature). Tartarus was both a deity and a place in the underworld where the most wicked were punished, and that might fit if you use a very loose fit version of the deity... but not if you use the period understanding of them. Tartarus was the primordial being from which light and the cosmos were born, an unbound, first-existing being.

In the Jewish literature of the Hellenistic period, Tartarus was believed to be where 200 fallen angels were kept, not some fiery destination for mortals. Similarly, Hades is used to represent nothing but a temporary home for the souls of the dead by the same literature-- to period Jews, it was closer to the concept of purgatory.

Indeed, Hades is emptied of the dead before being thrown in the lake of fire in Revelations-- if anything represents hell, it's the lake of fire where one suffers the second death after being judged by what one had done in life, rather than eternal torment.

CnKQ7pSia6 in reply to Eastern Block

"Christianity is not much different."

- Sorry, that's just plain wrong.

Christianity is just as illogical as Islam but there is a world of difference between a doctrine that threatens one with cosmic punishment in the afterlife (which one does not even believe it, so the point is moot) versus one that threatens one with death HERE and NOW.

Christianity for all its nonsensical beliefs does not order its believers to persecute unbelievers, invade and kill them if they do not convert. One cannot stress that difference enough.

Christianity is like an angry circus clown that says "I won't talk to you!" Islam is like Idi Amin - funny but in a murderous way.

So please please stop equating the two. It honestly waters down the very real threat of Islam. And I'm sure you are smart enough to understand that.

I don't care for people who tell me my soul will perish in the afterlife if I don't believe what they say. I DO, I MUST, I HAVE TO care about people who come after me with knives and guns if I disagree with them to end the only life that I have.

Alex Kilgour in reply to CnKQ7pSia6


You missed that whole time period between 1100 and 1300 that is popularly know as "The Crusades". How about the Spanish Inquisition? The Witch Hunts? The proscription against gays?

Just because most of the mainstream Christian Churches don't openly espouse violence and coerced conversion doesn't mean that they have renounced such beliefs. They are just smart enough to recognize that in the current situation in society it would not be accepted.

If you get most strongly-believing Christians alone and ask them about how to deal with Islam, the most common response that I've heard (and I've done this before) is to send in the military and force everyone there to become Christian.

Ann Coulter even espoused that particular view in an interview. The difference between Coulter and most Christians is that most of them are afraid to voice that aloud, because they have enough of a grasp to understand that it would be a VERY wrong thing to say. Coulter is an idiot.

Norman Hanscombe in reply to Melissia

Melissa, I've been impressed by some of your reasonable approaches to the fanatics among us; but to avoid accepting the Bible's strong and long-established presentations of Hell (by whatever label one wished) is not unlike the (subconscious) blind spots of others to whom you've often referred.
Being a true believer in any cause one deems ‘noble’ sometimes requires this.


Can faith be induced by law.
Its nonsense. People must have the freedom to choose between religions or atheism. Faith is something that has to come from inside not by force.

More over what is dictated by Koran is not important as it was not written by the prophet himself.

Norman Hanscombe in reply to FlameZ

FlameZ, I accept you haven’t realised your use of induced is non-standard. Conan Doyle has much to answer here, because Sherlock Holmes’ repeated reference to deduction when in fact his speciality was induction, has had far more influence on how the word is used than all the dictionaries, teachers and philosophers combined. Your misunderstanding places you among an impressive majority.
I wasn’t suggesting you said “faith needs to be induced by law”. I merely agree that faith needs to be induced. The used of the word "induced" is 100% appropriate. Well done!


If Sharia law holds that people are born into their parents' religion, and (in the case of Islam) to leave that religion constitutes the crime of apostacy, where does that leave Barack Hussein Obama - son of a Muslim father and ultimately a professed Christian? I am surprised that some jihadist religious leader or other hasn't issued a fatwa against him as an apostate - guilty of a crime punishable by death, and precisely the sort of thing which would motivate al Qaeda types. At the very least it could make things awkward for conservative Muslim leaders who have to deal with him as a head of state. I am surprised that Osama bin Laden missed such a golden opportunity.

Orothen in reply to s7D47bmKhY

Islam likes to see itself as a "sensible" religion (inasmuch as it can get away with such pretensions). There is room for exceptions and stipulations. In this case, since he was never raised by his father, he would probably be excused. There are limits to illogic.

Norman Hanscombe in reply to s7D47bmKhY

s7D47bmKhY, is it possible the average Jihadist probably suspects that there’s a distinction between i) having been a Muslim and leaving the faith, and ii) never having been a member of the faith even if your father was?

s7D47bmKhY, assuming your posting the statement three times doesn't impart a special meaning, it seems you believe there are countless millions of unsuspecting Muslims out there who don’t know they’re Muslims, because if being Muslim passes on genetically to the offspring of an apostate Muslim, the process will continue to the end of the planet, through future generations who are completely unaware of an ancestor’s sin. The Nazis didn’t carry through the sins of the father (or mother) as far as that. They didn’t even extend it to the Biblically approved 7 generations.


Given the fact that Muslims love to call their new converts "reverts", ie. they believe that all people are originally born Muslim and those who accept Islam are simply "returning to Islam", I would say s7D47bmKhY's position doesn't seem that implausible.

guest, regardless of whether or not your amusing “fact” that Muslims you know love to call their new converts "reverts", those fundamentalists who feel It’s their duty to kill apostates haven’t accepted that interpretation, or they’d have to be leading extremely busy lives.
As for your reference to “implausible” positions, I’d suggest you begin your search for them by reading carefully what you wrote.


Latest blog posts - All times are GMT
Gun laws: Prayers and pistols
Democracy in America July 11th, 17:43
Daily chart: Justice on trial
Graphic detail July 11th, 13:40
Technology and fashion: Storming the maisons
Schumpeter July 11th, 10:05
Financial literacy: Back to basics
Free exchange July 11th, 10:01


Products and events



