Jump Layout for jump-deficient skaters

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by icellist, Mar 6, 2011.

  1. icellist

    icellist Member

    I was just thinking about Caroline Zhang and her many jumping problems, albeit getting much better but still inconsistent. And then I was reminded of how Min-jung Kwak lip's and always wants a salchow. And the many skaters that lip/flutz

    So I'm curious about what the FSU bunch thinks skaters shoulld use for the jumping layouts in both SP and FS that's not too ambitious but has the most points possible.

    For Zhang, I was thinking 3F + 2T('tano), 3L, and 2A
    But for her FS i think she should add a lot of 2A for the second jump of her combinations should be 2A, and one 3Lz just for practice
  2. Coco

    Coco Well-Known Member

    I would like to see skaters working towards 3-3 combos to try 2-3 combinations.

    Kristi Y did this in the seasons before she got her 3z3t, I have to think it helped.
  3. C_T_T_

    C_T_T_ Well-Known Member

    You can only use 2A twice though so using it as the second jump in a combination means you need to have a full set of triples or use double jumps later.
  4. John Q

    John Q Guest

    Using a 2A as the second jump also makes it a sequence and not a combo. As such both jumps in the sequence would only receive 80% of their full value. It's bad planning to get less then full value for your difficult jumps so 2A as the second jump is usually only done on the easier jumps in a program.
  5. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

    Well, the answer is going to be different for each skater depending on their jump strengths and stamina.

    Putting most of the high-value jump elements in the second-half bonus period will gain more points for skater who is likely to land jumps just as well at 3 minutes into the program as at 1 minute, but disastrous for a skater who's likely to underrotate and/or fall on difficult jumps late in the program.

    A skater who can do an enhanced solo double axel worthy of +2 or even +3 at the beginning of the program (without affecting her consistency on the other jumps) would be wise to include that element there and benefit from a halo effect through the rest of the program from the Wow element at the beginning. A skater whose double axel is going to get 0 GOE most of the time whenever she executes it might as well save it until after the triples are out of the way.

    And so on. It's not all about the base mark.
  6. ks777

    ks777 Well-Known Member

    Caroline Zhang's 2A is one of the worst jumps of her.
  7. victoriaheidi

    victoriaheidi New Member

    What about 3T-2T and 3F?
  8. SkateSkates

    SkateSkates Member

    Zhang should add the 3T into her program where the lutz is now. She hasn't landed it in competition in over a year, and her technique is seriously messed up.

    Kwak should add the 3Lo back - she had it last season, but it has been MIA since the Olympics. She could replace the first 2A, which gains minimal GOE anyway.
  9. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

    Well, jumps are not the only way to maximize points. See Carolina Kostner with Loops, Salchows and Toe-Loop scoring higher than many more.

    My advice is to work on basics, speed...
  10. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

    Kwak's 2a is actually probably her best jump, she regularly gets +1s for it while her other jumps usually get 0s or -1s. She can do 3lo but the rotation is always questionable. I'm wondering if she'd be capable of 3s-3t or 2a-3t, because then in the SP she could do 3s-3t, 3lz, 2a and in the FS she could do something like 3lz-2t, 3f, 2a-3t, 3lz x, 3s x, 3s-2t-2lo x, 2a x which would give her 6 triples and 2 double axels with a 3lz and a 3 jump combo in the 2nd half which would be pretty competitive and she wouldn't have to do the 3lo. Now that her lutz seems consistent again I wouldn't be surprised if she brought back the 3lo though, it's just that earlier in the season she was having issues landing her 3lz and 3f so adding in another questionable jump wouldn't be a great idea.

    Anyways I don't think her doing 3s in the SP is that big a deal because she usually lands and rotates it and sometimes gets +GOE for it, and where she lips and her loop is shaky, it seems to make more since to give up the extra point and do a more secure jump. Adding a 6th triple to her FS would probably be a good move though, especially where she has the tendency to pop open a planned triple in the second half of her FS. But for now, she's probably focusing on rotating and landing her jumps, and she can always rotate her 2a, so that's why she probably puts 2 in her FS.

    Her goals were to finish in the top 5 at the AG and in the top 10 at 4CC and her 3rd and 8th place finishes there exceeded her expectations, and she said her goal for Worlds is to finish in the top 15 and she can probably do that with her current program layouts if she skates well and rotates her jumps. If she is clean she could maybe even place top 12 at Worlds depending on how others skate. But next season she may want to think about upping the content, especially if she hopes to break the top 10 at Worlds.

    As for Caroline her 3f seems to be solid, but only in the beginning of her programs. 3lo is probably her best jump, so it makes sense to keep that in her SP. If she could start doing 3f-3t, 3lo, 2a for her SP that would be great, and in the FS a layout like: 3f-2t, 3lz, 2a, 3f, 3lo-2a seq x, 3s x, 3lo-2t-2lo would be smart because if she moved the 2nd flip to the first half of the program she'd probably land it more often, and putting two combos with the 3lo in the 2nd half would get her more points, and she'd only do a solo 2a once, while the other 2a would come after a 3lo so she can't really have speed going into it anyway. And if she could do 3f-3t in her FS, then that would be even better and would get her up to 7 triples. I think she was attempting 6 triples in her FS earlier in the season though, and then dropped to 5 and put a 2nd 2a in her FS at SA. So she probably plans to have 6 or 7 triples in her FS next season.
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2011