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2008 Cadillac CTS



  • jimbresjimbres Posts: 2,025
    Easy, Rocky. I've been reading Mark's posts for years. He has an unusual, think-out-loud style of writing that takes some getting used to, but he adds value to every discussion. Having him here will raise the level of conversation. I say that even though I don't buy into his views on leasing (he holds the Guiness record for number of Audis leased consecutively) or AWD (he seems to think that AWD is better even when the car is parked with the engine turned off). He wouldn't be here if the CTS didn't genuinely interest him. He's certainly not here to lob bombs.

    One more thing. I've been a regular here at Edmunds for almost 9 years, & I've noticed that folks always get more worked up over not-yet-introduced cars than they do over cars that are actually in showrooms now. This seems to be a law of the universe. Maybe it's because when an argument gets started, it can't be settled in the usual ways: by taking a test drive or referring to a recent C&D or R&T road test. (Or maybe it's because these discussions attract an above-average number of 13-year-olds. Who knows?) So the discussion turns hot & silly & stays that way until a host steps in or the participants lose interest. Why fight over the interior trim quality (or lack of same) of a car that's months away from the showroom? It's absolutely pointless.

    For the record: I'm a satisfied BMW (330i, sports package, stick) owner who's happy to see that the absurdly small number of RWD luxury sport sedans that can be had with manual transmissions is about to increase. I don't know if there's a CTS in my future -- I won't be in the market again until 2009 - but I like what I see & I hope it's a home run for GM.
  • 14871487 Posts: 2,407
    I dont know anything about markcincinnati but I disagree that he has added anything to the discussion. He isnt impressed by the CTS relative to the competition and that is fine, but how many times do we have to read the same thing? We get it, the CTS is a generation behind the competition and is a lame attempt by Cadillac to lead the entry luxury sedan segment. He is getting repetative and annoying. If he feels the CTS isnt up to pay he doesnt not have to buy the car. Get a BMW 335 and call it a day.
  • 14871487 Posts: 2,407

    I dont know who you are arguing with at this point. For pricing reasons alone the CTS is unlikely to be cross shopped with the 5 series and E class. It will be much cheaper and will most likely be competing with the compact luxury Europans and G35/TL. NO one here disputes this fact so I dont get your obsession with convincing us the CTS isnt a true midsize luxury sedan competitor. In terms of size, power and features it COULD be compared to a 535 or E350. It's that simple. Since it's in a different price class most buyers wont see the CTS as a 535 competitor but it's a realistic comparison based on the merits of both cars. You havent stated why this comparison wouldnt be valid. The CTS will have the space, features and power found in the 528/535 but will most often be cross shopped with the 3 series.

    Also, you keep referring to this 6th place finish in C&D but the CTS was the 2nd oldest car in that test and thus finished 6th. As I already noted, it finished FIRST in a R&T comparison when it was newer vs the 530, 300, S80, A6, etc. YOu never responded to that. Any car that is near the end of it's lifecycle is bound to finish near the bottom of a comparion because it lacks power and features.

    "Comparing the CTS to the cars above its class -- until we know more that would permit such a comparison -- is akin to the Hyundai claims that their flagship is "roomier" than a BMW 7 series. Most folks would not accept the notion that the Hyundai was a competitor to the BMW simply based on its interior volume, trunk space or other measurements of cubic feet. "

    That statement is laughable. We are comparing the CTS to the 535, E350, etc. based on size, performance and luxury features. As someone stated, why dont you tell us what the car is lacking compared to those vehicles. We already know most people wont compare the CTS to those cars, but they wouldnt be crazy to do so. The Azera doesnt have half the features found on the 7 series and it's nowhere near the same class of vehicle. That analogy was poor.
  • plektoplekto Posts: 3,733
    The CTS according to some professional reviewers (and me, even though I am an amateur) IS a generation behind its direct competition. The 2008 CTS will catch up apparently. It does not move ahead of its competition (the ELLPS) and it almost certainly will remain a generation behind the current LPS incumbents' 2008 versions. Yet, so what? The CTS is not an LPS car, the A4 and G35, ditto -- these ELLPS cars, too, are likely to be a generation behind their LPS siblings. No harm no foul.

    The CTS, I contend, needs to differentiate itself or move ahead of its rivals in order to regain the standard of the world designation it seems to be striving for.

    The strategy of GM isn't to make a better car. They want to do what Toyota did to them 20 years ago. Build a comparable car that in no way stands out from the rest except in reliability and lower cost. It's a very smart plan, IMO. You get peolpe who are lokoing at the de-contented and plasticky E class now - they sure *will* cross-shop the new CTS, especially in the Midwest, where there is still a nagging voice in the back of their heads saying "buy American".

    If the CTS consistently got 4th place out of 8 cars in every test for driving but was $10K less money - by far the least expensive - you can bet it would get a recommendation in most magazines. Entry-level gives a huge bias towards being, well, affordable to peolpe who are lookig to step up. And $40-50K for a Volvo or Audi or BMW because they want a luxury car that's not the size of a Civic or 3 series(the 3 isn't really useable for a family, for instance)... It's just a hard pill for many to swallow, even if they can do so. They'd much rather find somethng for $35K and save the money.

    Btw, a base 2007 CTS is just at $28K. The new ones will be about $32-34K to start, according to the dealer I talked to today. Cloth seats, no nav, 6-speed gearbox... but with that nice 3.6VVT engine and the better interior. Looks very attractive to me.

    CarsDirect Price: $28,327 - including delivery. No incentives, financing, or rebates currently. I don't se how the base 2008 is going to be that much more expensive. Certainly not 40k+ as some of the detractors are saying it will be.
  • Speaking as a 13 year old with 33 years experience, I don't believe Mark has reached the age where practicality trumps status. He may subscribe to Cleopatra's definition of luxury: dissolving pearls in wine and drinking them. One reason M-B and others have been able to sell small, uncomfortable, and sometimes unreliable cars successfully is that everyone knows they are very expensive to own. Cadillac hasn't been able to do that, and I hope they never do.

    I've never been able to understand the allure of an imported product, and I suspect people who feel it cannot be cured. One of my former neighbors had such a bad time with his 300D, the dealer gave him a full price credit on a new one, and later the idiot bought a third one.
  • Some people are gizmo freaks and load their cars up with options just to say it's loaded.

    Remember the 2007 base has the smaller engine and vinyl; the 3.6L starts about 33k.

    Do you have any actual information they're offering cloth seats? Right now, they offer them only in Middle East 2.8L CTS's and not US ones. This is important to me because I much prefer cloth.
  • plektoplekto Posts: 3,733
    Well, that's what the dealer said - that the base model will have cloth seats since everyone hated the vinyl and kept requesting cloth.

    I suspect that the price won't be much different, or maybe a slight bit less to keep that bottom-end as close to 30K as possible. Cloth is an easy way to save some money in a non-critical area that doesn't destroy the interior.

    Personally I don't like the cheap leather anyways - it's not REAL full-thickness leather, either, so why pay the money, especially when you know it's just going to get stains on it from the kids and such?
  • That's very good news to me. I don't remember any mention of cloth in the press release, but they were careful to avoid saying the dash was leather (could be an option). Cadillac hasn't offered cloth in the US since 1999.

    My beef with leather is ventilation, pun intended. I can't wear synthetics without puddling. I've never tried perforated leather or the new ventilated seats--I wonder if they're discussed in a thread here.

    I suspect thicker leather wouldn't be very showroom-soft, but it would hold up better. Cracked leather is uglier and harder to fix than dirty cloth.

    It's going to be hard to get one of these at MSRP for a while, much less a discount.
  • jkr2106jkr2106 Posts: 231
    since everyone hated the vinyl

    So, is that to say the 2007 CTS has two different seating materials, leather and vinyl, or that it only offers the vinyl?
  • The current 2.8L CTS has vinyl standard, leather optional. The 3.6L has leather standard. In fact, all other Cadillacs since 1999 have leather (the V's have seuded fabric inserts). The 2008 2.8 will be export-only, apparently in cloth or leather, as will the US 3.6.
  • For the record: I am VERY IMPRESSED with the new 2008 CTS. I wouldn't even bother posting here and jousting with others here if I thought it wasn't a HUGE move forward for Cadillac, GM and frankly American manufacturing and the American (and perhaps global) customer.

    One is not able to be driven, today. But, if it were, I would test it IMMEDIATELY not so I could dis it and tell you how much better some foreign make is, it would be with the sincere desire to be impressed.

    I EXPECT to be impressed. I merely said I thought the car needed some "ahead of the pack" not "equal to the rest of the pack" content. (My last gen comments are primarily in response to the notion that some seem to think the CTS will graduate to the LPS class with this update -- AND I contend that the ELLPS 2008 CTS will incorporate 2005 LPS content.)

    Now here is something I just can't let pass: "The strategy of GM isn't to make a better car. They want to do what Toyota did to them 20 years ago. Build a comparable car that in no way stands out from the rest except in reliability and lower cost."

    I am also wondering if Cadillac REALLY is trying to emulate the Toyota example. Are they really attempting to build a car that in no way stands out from the rest. . .? I believe they want (and seem to have the capability) to build a world beater, not a world keeper-up-with.

    But, as usual, I could be wrong -- just never uncertain. :surprise:
  • I'm expecting tail fins on the next STS.

    Hopefully with rocket taillights. That'll stand out.
  • plektoplekto Posts: 3,733
    Yet this counter to the typical competetive ideology is what set Toyota apart in the 80s. They were just another car - like Mazda is now - but they were cheaper to fix, broke less often, and cost a few thousand less out the door. GM had the image, but was falling apart where it counted.

    And peolpe started buying them instead of domestics.

    BMW and Mercedes have become horribly unreliable and expensive. Volvo is rapidly turning into a joke as well - at least compared to a decade ago(1993-1997 was probably their high-point). All GM has to do is offer a simmilar product with a better warranty, better reliability, lower cost to fix, and for a lower price...

    Oh, wait - other than the interior, the first generation CTS was all of that. The next looks to be a significant upgrade. So expect a lot of shoppers to take a look at it - and then another once they see the under $40K price.
  • But then I'll never be able to buy one at a discount. Of course, the resale value will be better, but I keep my cars a while, even the Intrigue that I don't really like much.
  • Very thoughtful response.
  • biker4biker4 Posts: 746
    But what are the chances that adding any kind of options to a base model would require the leather upgrade?

    Biker, who'd be very interested in base model w/ sport suspension and 6MT.

    PS. And, please no run flats.
  • Just opened my new Automobile magazine and looked at the pictures, read the words (mostly positive, very positive) about the upcoming CTS.

    I keep googling this, that and the other place to find out what will be available with what.

    I would certainly be keenly interested in a configuration like this:

    2008 CTS w/300 HP V6

    o sport suspension/wheels [18" or bigger] (maybe sport seats)
    o either 6 speed would be fine, but I'd probably go with the manual
    o AWD (sorry, this one is a deal breaker)
    o Magnaride
    o Technology/guidance package: sat nav, sat radio, voice control of nav and phone, bluetooth, park sensing and/or rear backup camera, TPMS with TP readout, electochromic mirrors
    o Leather and/or leather alcantara (optional) seats
    o Front and rear heated seats

    And the things Cadillac generally calls "Luxury Performance Group."

    Here is a concern -- the AWD will not be allowed with the 300HP engine, the sport package or the stick shift. Reading one site it appears the AWD version will be somewhat limited in its configurability (auto only -- which in and of itself is not a show stopper -- 258HP -- which MAY not be a show stopper, but 300HP would be sweeet, and so on.

    The question is, "is there a place one can go to determine what combinations will be offered??

    I assume, barring technical restrictions, there will be MARKETING reasons (initially) to offer configurations and that over time these may change. I need to be in order mode in 13 months and despite what some of you have concluded, the early data (and the pictures) have made me keenly interested in the CTS AWD @ 300HP with a 6 speed manual.

    I am continuing to be more impressed with Cadillac's efforts for this refresh. :surprise:
  • You're probably right. I HATE the way they sell options now. I thought modern manufacturing was supposed to be more flexible, but if you compare the number and types of choices we had 30 years ago, it's ridiculous.

    I'm middle-aged, so I want the softest suspension and smaller wheels. I live in the old part of town, and my Intrigue makes me feel every road imperfection.

    How well do modern clutches hold up? I last had a manual in 88, and it went through clutches like water. It may have been my driving style of course.
  • The press release is the only solid information I would trust. Someone said bluetooth wouldn't be available initially except for export (very odd). I don't recall Magnaride being an option, which is too bad. What is TPMS?

    Looking at your list of gizmos, you may have to get an STS to get all of them. At the GMI site, people are expecting the STS to be redone for the 2009 model year, but no one knows for sure.

    I can't imagine them not combining AWD and the 300hp engine. Look at the current STS to see if they combine manual and AWD.

    GM has a long tradition of offering desirable options, especially engines, the second year of a new model. It's stupid because it hurts them in magazine comparisons and irritates first year customers, to say nothing of the potential customers who never hear about the upgrade and go elsewhere. By next March, you may be able to find out what's new on the 09 model, which could be infuriating if your lease is up then.

    If I can't get my A/C fixed cheaply, I'm seriously considering buying a used El Cheapo with a manual & A/C to see if I want another manual in a CTS or G8.
  • pearlpearl Posts: 336
    Mark, I agree that we all want more info on the CTS. I don't think we will get much more than has already been released anytime soon, so I am now waiting for the first car mags (or Edmunds) to get their hands on an early version for some testing. From what has been released so far, it seems that Caddy has checked most of the boxes on things that we all clamored for. The AWD may not be available with the 300hp engine, but then, some potential competitors don't have AWD available with their top engines (M45, IS350, etc). Audi figured out how to do this long ago, but so far, most other manufacturers have not stepped up to this issue.
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