Strange haven

Freedom without democracy leads Hong Kong into all sorts of trouble

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Readers' comments



You wrote that "no other place in China marks the anniversary on June 4th of the killing of protesters in Beijing in 1989."
Sorry guys, in the Special Administrative Region of Macau, which is in China, there`s always a candlelit vigil. Getting smaller every year, but still a protest meant to defend freedom.


The Economist should get happyfish, ChinaEagle, ewakorn and other posters here to write its magazine articles. They seem to know everything...about the NSA, the CIA, the politics and history of Hong Kong and many other many many things they know! How did they ever get to be so smart?

Will O the Wind

Hong Kong is one of the best choices Snowden had.

It is free, and its force backed up by China.
Britain, Singapore, Taiwan etc. will just warp him up and send to the U.S.
Russia or Mainland China has the force to say no to the U.S., but they will monitor him more than the American government did.

For now and near future, Beijing will remain silent, and HK won't be cooperative much either. And with the critics from Americans and all around the world, Washington is in a awkward place.


Dai Yiu-Ting is a middle age law professor at the University of Hong Kong, yet one of the three instigators of the so called 'Occupy Central' movement, obviously a copy of the 'Occupy Wall Street' movement. And over 70% of the Hong Kong population disapproves of his idea.

A law professor who himself preaches rule of law and democracy but he thinks he can break the law because he 'believes' what he is doing is 'right' and for the good of everyone, even through the majority disapproves.
First, if everyone in HK thinks like him, the territory would be in a constant chaos.
Secondly, he is a bad role model for the young students who are often ignorant and naïve.
Third if he has any innovation, he should come up with something more original, instead of copying foreign fanaticism.

With this kind of intelligent level University professor like him, I am really worried about the future of Hong Kong.

Niu Nuin

I find this piece amusing. Something bad happened at home, in the US. Then he points out that HK is full of troubles. Perhaps that makes him feel better. Good luck.


If the CE Leong dude don't care about the drones and can withstand the inevitable back-handed pressures coming from all sides, I think that Snowden may have a good shot of staying free because almost all good Hongkies and the rest of the world are with him. But we cannot be 100% sure that he will be safe without the 24 hours police protection and constant reporters vigilance because the CIA has deep covert operations with the underworld figures.


Actually Hong Kong is the only and best option for Mr. Snowden to seek refuge.

If Snowden seeks refuge in Latin American countries like Panama, probably BlackHawk will come down on his backyard and take him home.

If Snowden takes refuge in Middle East, most likely drone will try to annihilate him.

If Snowden takes refuge in any European countries or Australia or New Zealand, he will get stuck in an embassy compound like Assange has been and faces drummed-up charges from another government.

If Snowden takes refuge in any other Asian countries like Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, Singapore or Thailand or Philippines, all these governments will be overpowered by U.S. and turns him over upon U.S. request.

And if Snowden seeks refuge in Mainland China, Russia and Iran, he will not have the chance to continue online chat with Guardian reporters. And also he may risk the chance of being politically "swapped" without due process.

But in Hong Kong, he can freely move around (assuming that CIA does not assassinate him) and reveal new explosive information everyday. However, he may be on a budge constraint (the Mira Hotel that he moved out charges about US$350/night) unless he saved a lot from his $122,000 job (the Waipahu house that he resided in Honolulu is not located in a plush neighborhood).

And once his visa-free 90 day stay in Hong Kong expires, he can just take a short trip to neighboring Macau and return (assuming Macau SAR lets him enter the territory).

If U.S. requests extradition (so far Obama Administration hasn't yet), it has to face certain obstacles:

(1) U.S. has to present similar charges that exists in HK law. If U.S. charges him "treason" which does not exist in HK law (thanks that Basic Law Article 23 was rejected in HK), then HK government can reject such request.

(2) There are plenty of human right lawyers who may voluntarily defend Snowden at no charge. In fact, Hong Kong has provided refuge to many political activists like Sun Yat Sen, Rizal and Ho Chi Minh.

(3) Most of the previous extradition cases between HK and U.S. took about 3-5 years to finalize in court.

In the worst scenario, Snowden can walk into the UN Refugee Commission in HK and ask for political asylum. Most likely he will be granted such status given the cirumstance that he may possibly face unfair trial and even torture if he is forcibly taken back to U.S.

Or Beijing may reach a deal with Washington and pressure HK to give up Snowden. But such move is really unwise. Beijing should let HK handle the matter itself according to law.

ewakorn in reply to ewakorn

Unlike what some other posters said, the national security guys from China will not be able to question Snowden in HK. There is a strong "Silence" tradition that anyone detained can remain silent under police interrogation in Hong Kong.

And most likely Snowden will be on on bail after initial show-up in court after detention for 48 hours since he will not jump the bail because there is nowhere else he can flee.

But of course there is trade-off for HK.

HK will probably be granted visa-waiver access to U.S. soon. But if HK is "uncooperative" (meaning turning Snowden over without going thru the court), I don't think Congress will let HK join its "allies" which citizens can earn such access.

But in terms of defending civil liberty and freedom of information, I think this is the price worth to pay.

Hibro in reply to ewakorn

If what Snowden has done is legal and within the U.S. Constitution, then what has he got to fear to argue his case in court on home soil, or is the American judicial system so corrupt that he cannot get a fair trial?

ewakorn in reply to Hibro

There is a very highly likely chance that Snowden will not face fair trial in U.S.
Many U.S. politicians and even media behave exactly like their counterparts in PRC, i.e. convicts Mr. Snowden before he is indicted, by alleging him as a "traitor".
That really hits a chord in the mind of many HKers because many also are labeled by Beijing with similar terms. That is why poll in HK shows over half of the respondents oppose extraditing Mr. Snowden to U.S.


The Czech government has just taken responsibility for spying on its people by resigning. Now the shameless dude should reflect on his own dastardly actions and resign rather than trying to lie his way out. His relentless persecution of whistle-blowers fighting for the rights to live unmolested and in liberty has been a hallmark of his Presidency.

Terence Hale

The Law, strangely enough has no defined definition. Government who legislate make laws as a highway code which on the M25 in the morning nobody obeys... The term Whistleblower has its origin in sport, a referee who blows his or her whistle to enforce order (whatever that may be). In government this is the field of political ethics. Many countries have now adopted comprehensive whistleblower protection laws to prevent newspapers like the Guardian and there sources from people like Mr. Erdoğan, Obama or Hague. Mr. Showden or Mr. Assange who in a manner of self-destruction have perpetrated such political ethics in Whistleblowing live in the shadow of governments interpretation of law which amounts to intolerance of such political ethics, the Mr. (war) Blair and Dr. Kelly is a good example. A solution would be the intelligence agencies report to the Guardian as supervisor.


The freedom loving Hongkie authorities can be cowardly when facing up to the US Hegemon. Instead of forever looking to the poor Correa in Ecuador alone, some local governments like a small backwater county town in some remote provinces can step up on the plate and give Snowden the freedom and liberty that is so in need.


"Freedom without democracy leads Hong Kong into all sorts of trouble"? What trouble? Is the rest of the world frigging utopia? And as if there was democracy under the Brit rule.
TE, give it a rest! Don't try to fool anyone!


The U.S. refused to expatriate twenty-two Uyghurs, who were deemed by China as terrorists, back to China.
Maybe the U.S. has already forgotten what the U.S. has done on China but China never forgets it. Hence, I don't think it is clever for the U.S. to request Hong Kong to return Mr. Snowden back to the U.S. Mr. Snowden is not a terrorist. And his case is related to China's national security, considering the fact that the U.S. has been hacking routers and computer systems in Mainland China & Hong Kong. So China has tons of reasons to refuse to expatriate Mr.Snowden to the U.S. Now, it is time for the U.S. to pay for what it did on China in the past.

Bismarck888 in reply to ChinaEagle

Silly one, you are so incredibly blind and stupid Is Snowden more valuable to the US than Wang Lijun is to China? Most likely not. China agents will most likely get as much info from him, then send him back to he US.

You might have forgotten about Wang Lijun, but the CPC has not.

If the China decides to take Snowden, then the US will just leak all of Wang Lijun's case.

ChinaEagle in reply to Bismarck888

Unlike Snowden, Wang Lijun is not an agent. What he knows is not quite valuable to the U.S. However, what Snowden knows is very valuable to China. At least China will know where and how the U.S. collect the information for the analysis, what information is collected, and whom the U.S. targets.

China can get all valuable information from Snowden and then keep silent. If the U.S. leaks Wang Lijun's case, then China will be very happy to leak Snowden's case as well.

China needs to show that China is not afraid of any pressure from the U.S. This will encourage more people like Snowden to seek asylum in China. The U.S. want to get Snowden back home? NO WAY!!!


Actually, Hong Kong is not a strange choice at all for Mr. Snowden. It's perhaps the only rational choice. I'm guessing Mr. Snowden had the following criteria when choosing a haven:

1. English-speaking.
2. Freedom-loving.
3. Not easily swayed by America.

Canada fails #3. U.K. fails #3. France fails #1 and #3. Germany fails #3. Russia fails #1 and #2. Israel fails #3. Australia fails #3. Japan fails #1 and #3. Mainland China fails #1 and #2. Singapore fails #2 and #3.

Hong Kong, alone in the world, passes #1, #2, and #3.


Living in HK for many years as a Chinese citizen, I think that HK enjoys much larger degree of freedom than mainland does. Yet the pursuit for democracy should not trigger the division between HK and Chinese people. Now it seems that many leftists in HK pour scorn on every single word Chinese government said about human rights and blindly follow the format of American democracy. That's not rational, as both HK and China need to figure out truly suitable and legitimate form of government for themselves. Besides, the recent incident of Snowden offers us a good chance to rethink whether some countries labeled the example of democracy really live up to their names.

Denisovan in reply to Jeff ZHANG

"leftists in HK .... blindly follow the format of American democracy" and "scorn" on the Communist Party??
I don't get it! For most people (at least for Europeans) leftists are people who lean towards some form of socialism if not some kind of Marxist ideology. Isn't the Chinese Communist Party a lot more leftist than the Democrats let alone the Republicans in the USA or for that matter, the KMT?
"Chinese ideology" is kinda weird!


Nice-sounding words are not true, and true words are not nice-sounding.

Prism sound like prison, and you would be no more if you are to be focused on.

Should Mr. Snowden be extradited to the US or provided shelter by Hong Kong ?

Is he a traitor or a hero to his country?

Iching88 in reply to Denisovan

Dreams are dreams after all. Dosn't anyone have a dream? Some dream will come true and some are not. Do you get your dream fulfilled now with a decent income (by paid comments?), a gorgeours lady within your view and a place to hang your hat ?

Denisovan in reply to Iching88

Don't worry about me. Perhaps the Burmese government (with the tacit agreement of the KIA) is paying me in high quality jade (which many Chinese dream about) that I can sell to Peili Zhang (Jiabao's wife) for example and the money then goes to my invisible Singaporean bank account under a false name LOL (if these corrupt Burmese business junta-crony-tycoons can do that why not me?)

Denisovan in reply to Denisovan

Oh about that "gorgeous lady" thing and about Snowden's strange safe haven in HK. Snowden's girlfriend (who still loves him?) was a "hottie". Do you know whether she's also now in HK where people are free to fulfill all kinds of monetary dreams with or without Chinese characteristics.

Devils Advocate_1 in reply to Denisovan

[tocharianin reply to tocharianJun 16th, 22:57


Even the Toc's are free to fulfill their Burmese Dreams:

{Devils Advocate_1in reply to tocharianMay 6th 2013 7:08 GMT
[tocharianin reply to YoungWeberMay 5th, 21:35










This is a rather bizarre angle that Banyan has chosen.

Not a word about Snowden's revelation that the US government has been hacking government and civilian targets in both China and Hong Kong, amid all the brouhaha in American media about the threat of Chinese hackers.

No, let's ignore the real issue here (systematic hacking by the US) and go on to something else.

You've got to give kudos to Banyan. Even the Pentagon can't find such a creative propagandist.


This is one of the most disgusting articles on The Economist. If the Brits care about the voting right of Hong Kongers so much, why did the U.K. not give FULL democracy to Hong Kongers? Clearly, Hong Kongers enjoy MUCH MORE freedom and democracy under China’s rule than under the rule of the U.K.

Whether Hong Kong is “lack of democracy” or not, it has nothing to do with Edward Snowden. Mr. Snowden said that the American authorities have been hacking routers and computer systems in Mainland China and Hong Kong. Hong Kong’s South China Morning Post said that Mr Snowden's claims about alleged hacking attacks on Chinese interests had "knocked the wind out of Washington's case against China," "It looks like a case of the pot calling the kettle black, except the pot is a lot darker in this case." (by the way, “The pot calling the kettle black” is similar to “A thief crying ‘stop thief’” in Chinese) .

HYPOCRISY, it is the brand name of Brits, Americans, and all Western media outlets.

Er8ew7hon in reply to ChinaEagle

This is the publication that dismissed Indian farmers when they complained about the mighty Monsanto.

This is the publication that defended Chevron against Ecuadorian tribespeople when the latter filed the suit against the oil giant. (TE as much as called the Ecuadorians extortionists.)

This is the publication that couldn’t stop gushing over the “glorious history” of HSBC.

In their heart of hearts, The Economist cares about no one other than their Anglo-American corporate masters.

happyfish18 in reply to ChinaEagle

The West may be solely mistaken. All Chinese want personal freedom and liberty to make a good living rather than democracy. If the government is no good, they will throw them out like all through the centuries.

TS2912 in reply to happyfish18


Like they threw out Mao.

(Or maybe in your opinion, slaughtering 40 million of your countrymen was a good thing)

Mike1997 in reply to ChinaEagle

When we study history of HK , we know it was CCP threatened the colonial govt to hold back the dem. dev. of HK to exchange for biz opportunity. People in HK had few to do because it was Brit colony.
But now is even worse , Beijing runs HK as its colony. As by common sense , Beijing has no experience and no intention in giving ppl in HK a full democracy, plus we have so many comrades here to tell everyone :
"... if everyone in HK thinks like him, the territory would be in a constant chaos."

So we , HKers are in our own.


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