

Uncertain politics

Reimposing order

The authorities clamp down on rumours of political turbulence

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Readers' comments



Pressures from the middle class is quite significant in making the government to realise that political structural reform is more than dire as the country's economy is booming. Yet street protests or violent activities from the general public will do little to alter the current political status, as the CPC is quite defiant about such forms of protest.


no matter xi or bo ,who are and will serve for the people who will win the votes in the next session.what pity,inner fight occures! that is the fact!


Chinese government's strong intention and practice to impose order is more a precautionary move than the one with proper assessment. The Chinese general public are much calmer when political incidents happen as such, either out of prudent thought or out of apathy. Besides, the very fact that the removal of Bo, though very high-profile, doesn't seem to involve any bloodshed, has proved that the Chinese politics has matured to a positive side.


It would be advisable for readers to ignore undocumented claims like those made my Ewakorn about China's "wu mao army". Here, he tells us firmly that Bo Xilai has his own teams "inside and outside the country".

Of course, no evidence is given for this, since none exists. And if anyone did have such a program, Ewakorn would hardly be in position to have knowledge of it.

I'm beginning to think internet censorship isn't such a bad idea, when it's so easy for bogots to fabricate any kind of accusation for the simple-minded to propagate.

In fact, the entire wu mao story was a fabrication begun by David Bandurski and his NED/George Soros-funded "China Media Project". It wasn't true then, and it's unlikely to be true now.

There was never any evidence for the claims, and one Western reporter was on record as saying "Bandurski just pulled that number out of his ass", referring to the claim that China had 280,000 full-time paid posters.

It's just another cheap way to slander anyone we don't like, and it serves to remove our focus from the question of whether a country does indeed have sovereignty over its own cyberspace.

We should keep in mind too, that many rumors about China, like the one about the death of Zhang Zemin, originated in the US and were flogged on Twitter and Facebook before the Chinese were even aware of them.

The Western countries don't have that problem; China is not originating shocking rumors about other nations and then trying to propagate them externally.

As to Bo Xilai himself, he seems to have both supporters and detractors. There seems to be no disagreement that he did indeed clean up Chongqing, and many give him full marks for that. Whether he also made mistakes or had strange ideas, I don't really know, but we can leave that for China to sort out. It doesn't really concern us.

V-G in reply to watchingchina

Oh, please take your head out of your own backside before preaching it to others. If you think China is somehow being specially targeted by mysterious outside conspiracies and if you think the Chinese government doesn't manipulate internet opinion, then, I'm sorry to say, you're delusional.
(And frankly if you want to dispel the idea that the Chinese government hires shills then your comments certainly don't help.)

Bismarck888 in reply to watchingchina

It does concern the British people, because a British subject was supposedly murdered by Bo Xilai's wife according to the Chinese authorities. But of course it does not concern you, because you are not British. It also does concern the Americans, because Wang Lijun went to the US Consulate of all places. What did Wang Lijun tell the Americans? If Heywood was not murdered or Wang Lijun did not visit the US Consulate, your arguments are more persuasive. When ever these things happen its becomes an international incident, whether you it or not. Its unavoidable.

The Chinese government has made it an international incident, by saying that Gu Kailai is a suspect in the murder of Neil Heywood. There is something more important to the Chinese authorities than saving face or Chinese sovereignty of cyberspace, like the rule of law and justice for example. They could have avoided this by hushing the whole thing up, so pesky foreigners won't get involved.

The Chinese authorities might have to ask the West/Singaporeans for help in tracing Bo Xilai's money (if he had any) abroad. If Chinese officials were as clueless as you, and give the middle finger to the West, do you expect them to help China in its investigation. Of course not. Can the Chinese government trace money going into Switzerland, London etc? They need help of authorities in the West to get to the bottom of this, that is why you don't see the mainstream Chinese press has not been yelling at the top of their lungs and say its an internal matter.

For someone who says he is so immersed in Chinese culture, you still think like a Westerner, only seeing the trees and not the forest. To the Chinese government, protecting the sovereignty of Chinese cyberspace is not as important as the rule of law, ensuring a smooth political transition in October and most importantly getting to the bottom of Bo Xilai case.

As for Ewakorn, I don't care if Bo Xilai has his own paid wumao army. He is just speculating. But the fact about Professor Kong is correct. Kong has admitted he took money from Bo Xilai, but gave it back just recently ?? So its not speculation.

watchingchina in reply to V-G

How dare you make such a trashy and dishonest post?

Yes indeed China is being targeted, and not by "mysterious outside forces" but by the US, mostly through the NED and CIA.

The CIA has been active in Tibet since the 1950s - a fact even the CIA itself doesn't dispute - but you know differently.

The riots in Xinjiang had many instructions on strategy and tactics that emanated from Rebiya Khadeer's NED-funded World Uighur Congress in Washington, which was why China shut down the internet and SMS messaging in Xinjiang. These are facts that are not in dispute.

The rumors of Zhang Zemin's death originated in the US and were flogged on Twitter and the major media. They did not originate in China. Ditto with repeated releases by the China Digital Times (CIA/NED-financed propaganda sheet) of supposed "official documents" that were later revealed to have been trash.

And no, the Chinese government does not create and promulgate false political rumors in other countries. If you know of any, list them.

Ditto for your comments on the wu mao army. If you have documented evidence, produce it. If not, perhaps you might follow your own pleasant advice.

Where do you get the idea that your gratuitous insults and sweeping undocumented claims and accusations, along with your offensive and bullying nature, are sufficient to drive anyone from the truth?

watchingchina in reply to Bismarck888

Bismarck, I read your foolish post twice and it still doesn't make any sense. Why did you bother? You seem to be preaching to yourself, listing everything you think you know.

One thing I've noticed about you is that you seem to be burning with some kind of pathological envy, to the extent that you don't seem to care which side of any issue you are on, so long as it is the other one.

You argue, with equal facility, both sides of almost every fence, apparently with the delusion that you prove me wrong.

Please understand, I don't care what you think. My posts are not directed to you. If you don't like them, ignore them.

But if you must respond, then instead of babbling, state documented facts to prove your case instead of attacking me. Can't you focus on the argument?

Your only point was the pathetic observation that since the victim was a Brit, it is now very much your business. You might care to re-think that. If all your logic and evidence are that thin, why waste your time thinking?

Bismarck888 in reply to watchingchina

90% of your arguments are personal attacks or beating straw men. This time most of my statements are just opinion. However, the fact about Prof Kong is true. Secondly, if you were referring to ewakorn, why did you start a post instead of commenting directly to him.

You made statements, but you don't have sources to back it. The topic is about Bo Xilai, not about Jiang Zemin. As usual you want to setup a straw man and rant. The rumors about Jiang Zemin's death was not reported in the US, but in Hong Kong first (ie Hong Kong newspapers).

What I said is reasonable. If the Chinese government did not want to attract so much attention, they have not been so open. In fact they could have kept the whole thing under wraps. If you air your dirty laundry out on the front page, don't expect people not to talk about it. They could have easily put it on the back page. Western journalist do that sometimes also.

watchingchina in reply to Bismarck888

100% of your comments were opinion. That's fine, but don't state them as facts presented by someone who has inside knowledge or deep understanding. That is just a dishonest attempt to add credibility to a questionable opinion - pretend it's really a "fact", and hope others are too lazy to check.

The rumors about Zhang Zemin did NOT begin in HK; they began in the US, being flogged on Twitter, until the main US media picked up the story. They went to HK at that time, to the China Digital Times (NED/CIA), then attempts were made to flog them inside China, mostly with Sina Weibo posts.

That example was not your "straw man" but simply an example of the fact that China is indeed attacked by these things where the US is not.

However, my real point was that you have no position. You most often look to see the position I have taken and then try hard to find some way to prove your superiority by disagreeing.

Bismarck888 in reply to watchingchina

Did I state them as fact. No not this time. I have been careful not to this time. Again its about Bo Xilai, you just want to divert attention for the topic, for some strange reason and start to bash America.

To be frank I don't feel the US has much to gain from these rumor about Jiang Zemin's death, despite what you believe. The US has not taken sides in Bo Xilai's case. They persuaded Wang Lijun to leave the consulate. They called the Central Government, most likely saving his life. A smart call on their part. The American's also put Bo Guagua under protective custody. This is China's worse political crisis in twenty years, and the US government acted with restraint. The Americans did the right thing for themselves, the individuals concerned and for China in both these cases.

duke_widin in reply to watchingchina

Thanks Wathingchina for your excellent Comment.
I would like to ad ;the smear regarding Korean and Chinese Hackers all this western Brainwashed coming up with, was an invention of the Rupert Murdoch Sky and News Corporation.
Perhaps this people don’t want us to have a discussion about Chine and are paid for interrupting, who cares?


Ardent China watchers may be interested to learn the complete background details that made it essential for the current Chinese government to find reasons for the removal of Bo Xilai and his Maoist followers from the Beijing political scene ahead of the XVIIIth Congress of the Chinese Communist Party:
Needless to add, only time will tell whether this action was ultimately successful.


Are anyone curious why there are so many posters defending on behalf of Bo Xilai in this forum?

In fact, those defenders don't exist only in this forum. There are plenty of them in Mainland China. In those leftist websites, there are plenty of them who cried for Bo's plight.

The reason is very very simple. Bo Xilai has his own teams of Wumao (I guess Bo was much more generous and paid hundred times more) inside and outside the country to preach his Chongqing Model.

In fact, the dog-mouth Professor Kong has confessed that he has received money from Bo to speak nicely of him on TV.

So when someone said in this forum how great the life was under Bo and how great Cultural Revolution was, please don't take him seriously -- probably he was Bo's Wumao.

1-Dime Agent in reply to ewakorn

You vastly overestimate Bo Xilai's competence, and the amount of wealth he had to bribe everyone.

I mean just look at how incompetent he was at trying to hide the assassination of that British guy. He claims that a fat British guy died of "alcohol poisoning." Really? How believable is that?


Here is an interesting tidbit

"Chinese state media announced that Bo Xilai, the toppled Communist Party chief of Chongqing city, has been suspended from his Party positions and his wife is in custody as a suspect in the murder of British businessman Neil Heywood."


ewakorn in reply to Bismarck888


I was the first one in Economist Forum to tease Bo GuaGua (at least over one year ago as I recalled) when many media in China praised the Chongqing Model and many fellow posters remained muted.

By that time I already pointed out that Bo Xilai was deadly wrong judged by the great gap in how his family lived and what he preached.

Bismarck888 in reply to ewakorn

I always thought Bo Xilai was a hypocrite and windbag, but that is just me. I guess alot of people knew he was going to get the can, but I think many of our Chinese posters must be shelled shocked that the CPC would actually investigate his wife for murder. But looking back, I don't find it surprising. I think factions within the CPC gave the British Foreign Office "permission" to make a request for further investigation of Mr. Heywood's death. The Chinese authorities could have easily choose to quiet things down, but they did not. They just let the rumors build up, until today.

Its funny how the official press in China were just focusing on rumors about the "coup", but all the rumors (which turned out to be true) to go unabated about Bo Xilai for 3 weeks.

Before today, he might have a chance of making a come back. But as of today, he will be lucky he won't end up in prison.

ewakorn in reply to Bismarck888


But even I have underestimated the severity of this case.

When Bo suddenly disappeared from public eyes in March, I just compared him to Chen Xitong and Chen Liangyu.

But now the case looks more like Lin Biao and the Gang of 4.

First, on the eve of announcing Bo family's crime, Beijing asked for loyalty from all provinces and other members of the Politburo. And finally PLA pledged allegiance to Hu/Wen core.

That is the typical procedure of CCP on the eve and aftermath of political crisis. After 6/4, all provincial leadership and PLA had to pledge allegiance too.

For both Chens, they were sacked and imprisoned but their families were still okay. But Beijing implicated both "Jacqueline Kennedy" of China -- Mrs. Bo -- and Bo GuaGua had a role in the plot.

I am afraid this political purge is only at the harbinger stage. The people that may be sacked will be more than Bo et al and his son and his henchmen.

Just look at how many people have praised the Chongqing Model (Even by February the Chongqing Sing Red Choir went to Hong Kong to sing and the official at Chinese laision office praised them and even mentioned that the whole country including HK should learn from Chongqing -- apparently he was politically insensitive). Now they must have regretted.

Anyway, the only one safe is Wang Lijun even though he will be indicted for treason. US must have made a deal with the National Security guys when the Chengdu Consulate released Wang to the latter.

Bismarck888 in reply to ewakorn

I had a feeling that its more like the Gang of Four vs a power struggle like Chen Xitong. There is a ideological element to this, because Bo Xilai made a big deal of his ideology, by drawing in the neo-Maoist. The stakes are much higher. This is the difference between Bo Xilai and those other cases.

Some people have said that the Chinese government is acting on this, because Wang Lijun went to the US Consulate, that is partially true. They could have hushed the whole thing up, and the international media could have blown over quickly. Instead they are using this to go after Bo Xilai

I agree this is just the beginning. I think its more serious than just Bo Xilai and his immediate family. Heads will roll, all the way to the Party Congress.


People are not well educated currently.And the majority in China now will be easily manipulated by aggressive people and conspiracy.For instance, the protests do the surrounding in Peking in 1989,which stop the national produce activity leading an another great recession to the country.
We need change.Especially reform the political environment and system.However,we can't do it in the way so much as the violence revolution.
The rise of the China recent years proved that we should persist on developing economy without a pause,and reforming political system should go naturally not through the stupid violent protests

Freak on a Mountain

The question is, cui bono? That's always the question, isn't it?

But when we extend that outward philosophically, we have to look at all the people. Have the Chinese people prospered peacefully under the leadership of the 'Communist Youth League' group currently in power in Beijing? Have the citizens of Chongqing prospered under the 'Chongqing model'?

I've been here in China for ten years, and it seems to me that yes is the answer to both questions. Although there are factions within the leadership, China keeps progressing. Furthermore, within each faction there is a great amount of corruption. Corruption follows money; it doesn't matter who has it, as long as a top leader is willing to spend it, there will be corrupt sycophants grabbing for it.

The answer to the problem of corruption, of course, is greater transparency and accountability. Do not listen to any person who will you tell you that 'it's cultuarally impossible' or 'the system won't allow it.' The idea of transparency and accountability in government is at least 2500 years old in China, and there is such a thing as the Constitution of the People's Republic of China.

Citizens must be educated about their basic rights. Then, corrupt officials can be removed.


Many chinese had hardly become astonished, when hearing Wang's betrayal and Bo's sacking, and hence they found it a good topic for conversations in private. However, for the majority, Chongqiang is a place far far away, and few know what have happened there these years.

It seems that the political struggle is less fiece recently, and that all goes as before, for the latest news on the People's Daily and CCTV, which insinuate the political trendency of the state, endeavor to make people feel that nothing severe will occur.

To my surprise, rumors and comments about this affair still can be seen on the BBS of our city where I am living, from both Bo's supporters and oponents.

My city is hundreds of miles away from Chongqing, where most citizens think their daily life peaceful, if not flat. (Indeed, We dread traffic accidents 1000 times more than gangsters, because we never hear there are big gangs in this city or surrounding areas, but traffic accidents almost every day.) People here may complain our city is not as developed as nearby ones. Few think they need heroes or supermen or charisma leaders, and that threwd and industrious and low key administrators is satisfactory enough. They even do not care who are their own city's mayor or party chief, let alone the officers far far away.


Now Bo Xilai apparently out of the way , by throwing a bigger Stake of Chinese Welth in to the foreign Banks throat , Prime Minister Wen Jiabao last Week obviously wants to quieting the West, the Chinese People are going to be the big Losers, making Wen’s Family the big Winners.The new House Tax introduced by Bo Xilay in Chongqing was in his way!


"The class interests at stake are not hard to uncover. Top leaders, like Wen, are set to become the biggest beneficiaries of a new wave of reform. Their family members would be allowed to formally appropriate, as their private property, the huge state-owned companies already under their control. Wen’s son, Wen Yunsong, a billionaire private equity investor, is currently president of the state-owned China Satellite Communication Corporation. Wen’s wife, known as the “Diamond Lady,” is a wealthy businesswoman in China’s lucrative jewelry trade."

Dreamer-Sg in reply to duke_widin

Among the China netcitizens,P.M.Wen is known as China's Best Actor,but little has been mentioned about he and his family members business activities,except I did read some allegations about him and his family from Epoch Times,the arch enemy of CCP,but generally he has a much cleaner image,so too is Chairman Hu.
Bo and his family have a much worst image among the China netcitizens.

Not disagreeing with your conclusion, but just beware that the Epoch Times will likely not provide you a balanced view of things in China (since as you yourself admitted, it is the arch enemy of the CCP since it was founded by Falungong). It is probably just like reading Xinhua or People's Daily for that sort of news. Of course, if you still want to read it, try to balance it out w/ some Chinese government news - the former will tell you all the bad, and the latter all the good. If you put two and two together, you should get a somewhat accurate picture of things.


If some websites are being shut down now because of fear of internal skirmishes spilling out. Expect to see China engaging in some of external skirmishes as well like some high level disputes with other countries. I think India, US , Japan, Taiwan or any of these countries should be prepared for that. They would do that to distract its people from what is really happening inside.


I see now in China the same grievances as in 1989 over inflation, limited career prospects for students(Now most of the students/graduates want to work for CCP government), and corruption of the party elite are growing rapidly.
Internationally, during Tiananmen square protests of 1989,Communist governments were losing their grip on power in Eastern Europe.
Now with Arab spring,dictators are being overthrown and some killed.
Except that voters in the West,especially those in USA which served as model for the Chinese students during 1989, are now facing with similar social problems.1% vs 99% “Occupay Wall Street” (OWS)protest movement began in US began September 17, 2011,It is pretty difficult to find many Chinese intellectuals citing the West and US as models now.
So the problem for the "RIGHT" in China now is they have absolutely no model to look to,and that is why I think the leadership would continue control.

"limited career prospects for students"

This is not true. China is suffering from degree inflation just like the West, but there are a wide variety of career opportunities in the private and public sector for the people with education and skills to take them. Top graduates go to work for the government because in an authoritarian, bureaucratic state that's where the money and power is. Unlike in 1989, there are now also numerous multinational corporations with offices in China offering stable and high paying jobs in the fields of finance, law, and so many other things.

I agree with you that there are now wide variety of career opportunities in private and public sector,I have no hard statistics to compare 1989 and now.
Basically that was a major complaint I heard while in China,also I note that from 1989-2011,there has been a 19% increase in total population.
1,118,650,000 - 1989
1,336,718,015 - 2011
Of course GDP has also gone up tremendously.

The problem is, w/o hard numerical data, it is difficult to make the argument either way. For example, I have heard an anecdote from my uncle living in China about how he once encountered a recent college grad working as a waiter in a hotpot restaurant because he can't find a job matching his level of education. Then, I heard about my childhood friend, who studied Portuguese in college in Beijing, getting a job at one of the 4 major banks (forgot which one) in China liaising w/ banks located in Lusophone countries. Thus, anecdotes or theorizing won't do anybody any good - that is why hard empirical evidence is crucial.


Why the hell is the West reporting on old news and rumors now? It might have been news...two weeks ago.


If continues increasing its Defense spending during the next decade reaching 50% of the U.S. Defense spending...what will America do? Attack China? Bomb China? Murder 100 million Chinese? What will America do if China´s Defense spending comes to be half of their own?....We know America is very, very agressive, and I don´t have any doubt America will attack China without any excuse, just to kill them until submission, same as the British Empire did 150 years ago during the Opium Wars, forcing Chinese citizens to become drug addicts.

Assuming you are right that the Chinese drug addicts were not coerced by anyone to buy drugs, it does not mean that the UK's drug trafficking was legal and justified. Its most shameful for UK to commit a task force to attack China for her ban on the UK's drug trade. India was her accomplice. This has been written in all history books. Unfortunately, China knew too little of the modern warfare technology developed in the west. Fortunately, the past humiliation has become the driving force for China to work hard to catch up. The lesson has been learnt.

I'm certainly not saying that the UK's drug trafficking was legal in China or that the opium wars were justified. And sure, I agree with everything you said.

But, that being said, I think many people completely mischaracterize the opium trade and the opium use in China. From my understanding of the history, *Some* Chinese people from various social classes williningly smoke opium to varying extents for various reasons. Some of these people were addicts, others were not. At the height of the opium use in China, the 1920's, 20% of the adult male population smoked opium; an unknown number of them were addicts.

During the 1800's, opium was legal and commonly available throughout much of the world. The Chinese seemed to like it more than most. By the same token, China had- and has- plenty of hard liquor. Chinese baijiu is stronger than western liquors. Yet, China did not suffer from widespread alcoholism like Russia and Britain. So the Chinese obviously preferred opium over alcohol. Go figure. But that choice was theirs.

The problem wasn't the opium. The problem was the wars.

whackamole in reply to enriquecost

If America is intent on China's destruction and would "attack without any excuse" why wait until they are stronger, why not attack now? Your comment is one of the stupidest I've read in some time. Was your visa denied, medications wearing off, what? It is scary to think people really "think" like you. Piss off!

dunnhaupt in reply to enriquecost

You are reading too much Chinese propaganda. China is a big nation now. No need for China to be paranoid like a small tinpot dictatorship. Forget the opium war after 150 years, nobody plans to attack you.


“in a lot of these chopstick countries in East Asia, losing face is a big deal.”?

Haha, losing face is a big deal in the West too, and don’t tell me being otherwise.

China’s top leadership needs not to be as monolithic as expected from outside. Even President Obama, Secretary Clinton and congress don’t see all things eye to eye.

Mr. Bo Xilai’s removal from Chongqing leadership was and still is big news big time. And way not? Why should China be immune from the kind of power struggle, personal greed or infighting stuff that’s part of Western democracy also?

Most people don’t know what exactly happened with the Bo case, so it’s only natural to have all sorts of rumor mills, with pro and con. China’s press is not a free for all press (is there any press that is absolutely free?) and so when some rumors got vicious and ridiculous, governing body should put a stop to it and frankly I am surprised that it only took three days to do it.

Did anybody speculate what went on behind the scene for Ms Gillard and Mr Rudd fight in Australia for instance?

I can not prove it but I actually heard from someone in America saying the rumors started from a FLG site. But this remains to be ascertained.

Needless to say, the element of Schadenfreude for something worse to happen was there all along too. May be they are in for some big disappointment.

Bismarck888 in reply to justlistenall

The big difference is that the all our Chinese posters have been saying that authoritarian China is more stable, more untied than the West. People are not judging you by their own standards, but by your own words.

Like it or not, relative to the former Soviet Union and particularly Vietnam, power struggles in China are not been peaceful or quiet.

1) Deng Xiaoping purged twice
2) Zhao Ziyang
3) Hu Yaobang (not purged, forced to resign and make a self-criticism)
4) Lin Biao (Killed while fleeing to the Soviet Union)
5) Liu Shaoqi (died in prison)

Its a fact, politics within the CPC has a history of being very unstable. Its only in the last 20 years they have managed to paper over their differences. This is just the opening salvo, its going to get worse. China is not Vietnam, how many General Secretary of the Vietnamese Communist Party have been purged. None that I know of. By comparing to Western democracies, you are missing the whole point. Does the role of the US military play a big deal in US politics? In Australia? It does in China, much more so than in Vietnam.

Do you have definitive proof that the military has a big role to play in China compared to other authoritarian/communist nations such as Vietnam, Cuba, Laos, etc? The Chinese military is powerful, but for now, it is still fully subordinate to the civilians in the party.

Macumazan in reply to justlistenall


Well, how about every single newspaper, television station, radio station and political commentator in Australia for a start?

Quite naive. The military can chose. It will only remain subordinate to whom so it chooses. It is further a mistake to see the military as one homogeneous organisation with common will. It is factionalised and internally split between the Maoists and reformers. Few if any can forecast the balance of the split however it may be more balanced than many commentators may think. I would suggest there is a possibility on this occasion the military will decide the political outcome and especially so if Xi Jinping is to succeed Hu.

The role of the Central Military Commission is not that important in Vietnam for political power as in China. Why should it be, there have been no purges of GS/Senior Ranking leaders since the founding of Socialist Republic of Vietnam. Almost all of the senior leadership in the PRC had at once time been purged in the Cultural Revolution, some like former Premier Zhu Rongji twice. With this type of political culture, you will try to make sure you won't ended up being purged. How to do that, get support of the military. The stakes for falling out of political power in China are much higher than in Vietnam.

Because of that the PLA was instrumental in backing Deng Xiaoping vs the Gang of Four. They restored order during the Cultural Revolution. They killed thousands of Red Guards in the process. Then there is Tiananmen. Since 1975, has Vietnam's Peoples Army involved in any serious power struggle?

The truth is, China's political system is very unstable, and has alot to do with the character of the Chinese people. Chinese people are ideological. In contrast Vietnamese, Japanese and Koreans are tribal. Chinese don't have a strong racial identity as the other East Asians. Even after the Communist won in 1949, they still kept on with the ideological struggles. In contrast, just 10 years after winning the Vietnam War, the VCP decided it was going to reform, they did so without the bitter ideological struggle that characterized China.

justlistenall in reply to Macumazan

You said, "Well, how about every single newspaper, television station, radio station and political commentator in Australia for a start?"

Well, how about every single newspaper,..., that’s a little less provincial and a lot more international like the Economist, with three related articles already to Bo to boot, for a start?

justlistenall in reply to Bismarck888

Your problem is you don’t know much about China or CCP, yet somehow somewhere you must have convinced yourself that you are some expert of sorts by citing whatever you picked up here and there from Wikipedia and stuff. The name dropping in your post appears being impressive to the uninitiated, but really being mistaken to the learned.

Suffice for you to learn that in China, CCP party (and there the state) controls the gun, not the other way around.

ps: And Vietnam's GDP of $102 b in 2010 is less than 2% of China's. So do readers a favor by quit comparing China with Vietnam every time, will you?

Bismarck888 in reply to justlistenall

When people disagree with you, you starting attacking people for lack of knowledge or using wikipedia. Did I use wikipedia. But you don't even use any sources or make good arguments. Did I ever say that the military controls the CPC? No I never said that. I said this, which ever faction in the CPC has support of the military almost always comes out on top. That does not mean the military controls the CPC? Its best to take advice from your moniker "Justlistenall", instead of just opening your mouth.

What does GDP have to do with the political structure? It shows you resorting to arguments because you can't come up with anything. If one compare the USA with China, then its then you come up with the democracy argument. Vietnam its the GDP argument. You people will always find away to make China unique, so special so you cut off any argument. China is still Communist, there is nothing illegal / wrong in learning from other Communist countries.

To be frank, there are lessons to be learnt from other countries. China sent people to learn from Singapore about the banking system, even though Singapore GDP is a fraction of China's. So by your logic there is even less reason to learn from Singapore.

For China, there is a something to be learned from the VCP. I am pretty sure China's leaders rather learn from the VCP than American democracy. Vietnam has a system that undergone 9 changes in GS from founding of the Socialist Republic until now.
Ho Chih Minh died midway through the Vietnam War. What if Mao had died in 1945? Or Stalin in 1942? The Vietnam leadership still kept going, despite his death. There was no power struggle, feuding, purges that characterised Mao's death seven years later.

Why is Vietnam a good comparison? Because the current political structure is similar to China's. If size of a country had anything to do with it, it won't manifest itself in ideological struggle, but regionalism. Why is there more instability in China particularly in the first 30 years? One aspect is trying to fiddle with the structure. The GS position was abolished in 1937, replaced by the Chairmen position in the early 1940s, then from 1955-1965 reintroduce again and abolished, then reintroduced in the early 1980s. Was this chaos in GS position a symptom or a contributing factor in the political instability in China from 1950-1980. Did this experience with instability and xcessive centralization of power under the Chairmen position result in the CPC abolishing the Chairmen position and reintroducing the GS position in the early 1980s? The VCP kept the GS position, even when Ho Chih Minh was Chairmen. They abolished the Chairmen position when Ho died, 14 years before China did the same thing.

Michael Dunne in reply to Bismarck888


Interesting points. With regards to North Vietnam in the 1950s, I thought non-communist elements of the Vietminh got repressed after the partition in 1954.

Was that the case, and did that extend to communist members (say people following up on personal grievances once the conflict stopped)?

Similarly, I thought there was some housecleaning of the communist party after revolts erupted against collectization excesses around 1956 or 1957 (like in Ho Chi Minh's own Nghe An province)?

Otherwise, do you think the CCP had or is possibly considering researching Singapore on the possibilities of single party dominance within a competitive electoral system?

I would figure someone from the CCP may have reached out to PAP to learn about their success at retaining power and significant electoral advantages.....

Bismarck888 in reply to Michael Dunne

OF course there was housecleaning, they are non-Communist so they don't count. As for the Communist ranks, did it occur at the top level. Unlike in China, you don't see General Secretary / Chairman, Vice Chairman being purged or thrown in prison. They would have been purged long before they even got that far. It means the selection process in Vietnam is very good.

The PAP is not a suitable example for China. Why? Its a city state and its a centralized unitary state. China is a very decentralized unitary state. You have competitive elections in China, the likelihood of the CPC losing power in one region is very high. There is always going to one mayor/governor who is going to make a mess of things, and lose an election. Once that happens within 20-30 years, the CPC will be turfed out.

ewakorn in reply to Bismarck888


The power struggle inside CCP was much brutal and fierce than you listed. Here are some more victims:

(1) Chen DuXiu -- founder of CCP. Unlike Mao, Chen was a genuine intellectual who had led the May Fourth Movement. After the bloody split from KMT in 1927, Chen was blamed and ousted from CCP. However, Chen was the first one to denounce Communism and embraced Liberal Socialism. But CCP was not kind to him even though Chen was the founder. Chen's daughter died in NYC's Chinatown some years ago penniless.

(2) Zhang Guotao -- another military leader who accomplised more in the Long March than Mao. But Zhang lost power in 1935 to Mao and later immigrated to Canada. Zhang published a memoir -- it is a must read for anyone who wants to understand CCP.

(3) Wang Ming -- representative from Comintern who lost in power struggle to Mao in 1942. Fortunately he escaped Mao's torture.

(4) Gao Gang -- Gao was the king of Manchuria in 1950-53. Purged by Mao as Stalin's agent in China.

(5) Peng Dehuai -- Mao's beloved general who led in the Korean War. Purged by Mao in 1959 when Peng opposed Mao's crazy Great Leap Forward.

And actually Deng had been purged 3 times.

Throughout CCP's history -- before and after the founding of PRC, it was besieged with bloody power struggle. Even Mao said it would be weird if there was no power struggle between different cliques within CCP.

But I would doubt there would be less power stuggle in Vietnam than in PRC as you said. IMO power stuggle, mostly bloody and vicious, is a basic attribute of any Communist Party.

Bismarck888 in reply to ewakorn

Since the founding of the Socialist Republic of Vietnam, no Chairmen/GS has been purged, sent to prison etc. Yes some have been retired after a year, but they did not face house arrest or were imprisoned. IN my opinion, political struggles are less vicious in Vietnan than China at least at senior level, because the worst you face is early retirement, rather than house arrest or being sent to the countryside.

The VCP's decision to reform had a lot to do w/ the fact that they were seeing how well the SEZ's were working for China - most historians agree that Doi Moi was modeled after Deng's reforms.

As for how Chinese are ideological, that simply does not make sense, and the statement is a gross generalization at best. I am currently studying contemporary Korean history, and I read the autobiographies of the early Korean patriot Kim Ku. In, it he recounts a conversation he had w/ his Tonghak (or Donghak) teacher about religion and belief. His teacher said, to quote: "the Chinese are too mercenary, while we Koreans are much purer in spirit". Of course, he could just be making a nationalist/supremacist statement, but it certainly does contain a large grain of truth. Choe Bu, a Joseon civil official who traveled from south to north China before returning to Korea, also cited how all Chinese, including Confucian officials, were engaging in business and trade, even though Confucianism disdains such activities. This is vastly different from Joseon Korea, where Confucianism (and Neo-Confucianism) was followed very strictly. Of course, it is hard to quantify such personality traits for performing empirical analyses, but I would venture to say that Chinese have been more practical then the East Asian neighbors they have influenced, simply because of China's tumultuous history of nomadic invasions, violent dynastic transitions, conquests to the south, north and northwest, etc.

Of course, I'm not saying that your statement that the military is more influential in China is completely incorrect. People suspect that one of the reasons that Deng conducted the 1979 Sino-Vietnamese War was to distract hardcore Maoists in the military while he undertook reforms. However, we are working w/ mostly assumptions and inferences here since there is almost no information about going-ons behind the scenes, and to assume, like you did, that there is some inherent character about Chinese that make it so based on indirect indicators is even more suspect. I mean, why can't it be because of historical reasons and path-dependent development? For example, the fact that the CCP is in power a lot longer than the VCP, that Mao ruled China after his victory for almost 30 years while Ho died before the VCP won in 1975, and so on surely also had a large effect on the role the military plays today.

MostJustWantPeace in reply to ewakorn

"Zhang Guotao -- another military leader who accomplised more in the Long March than Mao"

I would dispute that, even though I am neutral about both men. If you read most historical accounts, Zhang was a pretty terrible tactician and military leader, going through the Zoige Grasslands multiple times w/ his forces because he insisted on fighting conventional, set-piece battles w/ the KMT while Mao decided to recuperate w/ his supporters in Yan'an. Sure, he didn't deserve what happened to him, but that does not excuse him from his military misjudgments.

How do you know most historians view that Doi Moi was based on Deng's reforms? Where is the proof? First off, Deng's reforms only began 6 years before. Even in China it was too early to tell if it worked or not. How old you were when the reforms took place. Its easy to read based on history, but if you were living at the time, it was far from certain it would have worked for both political / economic reasons.

First off introducing Doi Moi was not as radical for the Vietnamese as it was for China. Why? The collectivization was not as rigorously enforced in Vietnam as it was in China. Even North Vietnam in 1986 was far less "Communist" than China was in 1979. The other aspect, South Vietnam was a capitalist economy just 11 years before Doi Moi was implemented. How radical of a break was it for people living in South Vietnam seriously? Did they have to look at Chinese reforms, when one part of the country was capitalist just eleven years before. Use commonsense, and stop looking at everything from Chinese perspective.

The North Vietnamese leadership where far less isolated in the 1960-70s then the Chinese leadership was to the outside world, whether Eastern Bloc or the West. One of the biggest fears the North Vietnamese was the Vietnam War would drag on, and through Western investment, South Vietnam would overtake North economically, making a unification by military means impossible. That is why they kept up the military pressure. Had they allowed even a 10 year breathing space, the end result would be similar to what happened with Taiwan / South Korea.

They were much more aware of what was happening economically in SEA in the early 1970s than the Chinese leadership was. Because unlike the Chinese, the Vietnamese leadership of the 1970s did not spend the ten years working in the countryside.

First off, the point about Chinese being more ideological. was made by an Australian diplomat.


Chinese society, like Britain / America is based on ideas, not on tribalism. The Manchus eventually became "Chinese", so did the Mongols. In Japanese/Koreans society, a Chinese person can never really be Japanese/Korean. Its a race based identity. Chinese people born in Korea, don't have Korean citizenship, without that they can't apply for a lot of jobs, face discrimination etc. Even getting a internet account they have to ask a Korean friend to help them get it (ie they need an ID card which as a ethnic Chinese they don;'t have)

About Vietnam, you did not read my other post. I mentioned the historical reasons. I talked alot more about the historical reasons. I give blow by account of how many CPC senior leadership were purged, its not based on inference, but facts. I am not guessing at all.

1) Deng Xiaoping purged three times
2) Zhao Ziyang
5) Liu Shaoqi (died in prison)

Of course you can say the following, Deng wanted to resign and work in a factory. Zhao Ziyang put himself under house arrest for 15 years. Hu Yaoyang willingly confessed. Lin Biao wanted to take vacation in Moscow to get away from it all, but unfortunately the pilot was drunk and the plane crashed. Liu Shaoqi was crazy and committed suicide in a mental hospital. This made up story is just as good as the conventional view that they were purged, because no historian knew what actually happened.

Secondly, I described how the CPC abolished the GS position in 1937, made Mao Chairmen in 1943, then instituted the GS position in 1956-1965, then reintroduced it in 1983. In contrast the Vietnamese have kept the GS position since the founding of VCP in 1930. The difference in age of the VCP and CPC is only 4 / 9 years depending, 1921 vs 1925 / 1930.

Secondly the VCP was in power almost as long as CPC was, Democratic Republic of Vietnam (aka North Vietnam) existed from 1954-1976. So to say that the CPC was in power a lot longer than the VCP is false. Unlike the CPC, they have managed to unify the Vietnam in 1975, as far as I know Taiwan is still control by the KMT. So the victory of CPC is still incomplete.

So far no one has come up with evidence of GS/Chairman of when the VCP was ruling either Vietnam/North Vietnam being purged/sent to the countryside/jailed/killed/arrested in the last fifty years. People have gave a bunch of funny answers.

1) Vietnam's GDP is smaller than China's
2) All Communist Parties have bloody power struggles.
3) The CPC is alot older than the VCP and in power alot longer.

Yeah, and you never addressed one more thing: Mao's foolish campaigns. Had Mao died right after the 1949 take over, he might just be like Uncle Ho, who died before the 1975 reunification - revered and loved, rather than being labeled as a mass murderer making Stalin look like a saint.

As for Chinese not getting citizenship, that is simply not true. I don't know about Korea, but I know of several famous people of Chinese descent in Japan who are Japanese citizens. Not getting citizenship in Korea might apply to more recent immigrants, but those who started living there 50 years or more ago are different -> most of them have acculturated and become Korean. The situation in Vietnam is even more interesting, since the Hoa community there were pretty much Vietnamese citizens, though they were still distinguished ethnically (many were expelled after the 1975 takeover, and made up a good portion of the so-called "Boat People").

All you have done is focus on the purges, and then you attribute those to some innate Chinese mental process or cultural characteristic, which you identified specifically as Chinese being ideological rather than tribal. First, why can't the Chinese be tribal - isn't the need to assimilate into Chinese culture to be Chinese a tribal characteristic as well? Sure, it may be harder to assimilate into Japanese or Korean society, but it still can be done after a couple of generations. Same with China, and some have never assimilated, like the Hui, who for almost all appearances and customs are Han, but because of their Muslim beliefs are set apart. Second, why can't it be some other cultural factor? You have not exactly made a clear causal connection as to why w/ the Chinese being more ideological, there would be more purges and bloody struggles in the communist party. Why not attribute it to the nature of the Chinese bureaucratic system inherited from the imperial times, which the CCP has retained to a large extent (just like how NK retained many elements of Joseon Korea in its governance)? Finally, to assume that it is cultural at all rather than historical or path-dependent due to the different histories of China and Vietnam is overreaching a bit.

Like I said, I am not exactly disagreeing with your observation that power struggles in the CCP has been more vicious than that of the VCP. However, the issue I have is with the reason you gave and your thorough discrediting of historical factors.

ewakorn in reply to Bismarck888


Actually there are more victims in CCP's internal power struggle:

(1) Lin Biao:

Mao's appointed successor but reported to stage an abortive coup and tried to flee. His plane crashed in Mongolia with his wife and daughter as collateral victims.

But the case is after all a big question mark. Why would Lin need to stage a coup since he was already the appointed successor of Mao? Moreover, the whole case was then reported by the propaganda machine controlled by Mme Mao and Gang of 4. With Lin's death, all his followers were purged. But Lin was the general who led PLA from Manchuria to Hainan Island. Without Lin, PRC could hardly be established in 1949.

(2) Mme Mao and Gang of 4:

No matter how vicious they were, the way they were arrested was a result of CCP's power struggle.

(3) Hua GuoFeng:

Hua was sacked due to CCP's internal power struggle. But fortunately Hua knew his place and was not purged.

First I talked about the bureaucratic/historical factors. But you seem to ignore them. I talked about elusive nature of the GS position in China. But you seem to ignore that. I spend 2 pages talking about the historical differences. But you seem to focused on one paragraph I made about Chinese civilization based on ideas. It is, I am not backing down on that one. As for Ho being lucky he died before liberation, he could have easily turned out differently than Mao.

The power struggles did not stop with Mao's death. Please note. So you can't blame everything on Mao.

What is wrong with being ideological. Chinese civilization is based primarily on ideas, that is why the Manchus / Mongols could rule China. If it was not, they would have been kicked out a long time ago. Is it bad? Tribal identity is based on blood, it much it much more difficult to assimilate. There have been Hui Generals and Politburo members, how many Korean-Japanese politicians are there in Japan? That is why Koreans in Japan, try to hide the fact that they are Korean when looking for jobs etc. But Japan treats ethnic Chinese in Japan far better than the Koreans do.



I don't know where you get the idea they have assimilated. Leaving Korea is more like it. Chinese people in Korea don't automatically get citizenship even if they are born there. You are naive to assume that Korea automatically has birth right citizenship for babies born in South Korea.

Bismarck888 in reply to ewakorn

I did mention Lin Biao, but thanks for Hua GuoFeng and the Gang of Four. Its particularly nasty, from 1965-1989, the purges / assassinations / sentencing almost happened every 3-4 years years. While Vietnam had their power struggles. Vietnam is amateur hour, compared to the level of backstabbing in the CPC.

So what has happened to Bo Xilai so far is an improvement, I guess.

China ruling bloc members are not immune to fighting for personal greed, but in an aberrant , inhuman, and evern antihuman way , which is different from that in western nations.

For example , for purpose of the endless lust of grabbing Chinese female they desire to keep as concubines, the china ruling bloc tacitly oppressed, mentally maltreat , disparage the grassroots majority of Chinese handsome to ruin their profession and development rights, and force the grassroots majority of Chinese handsome to engage in prostitution for an salary of same level of management position in "normal" professtion ,which is opened to other china male except the grassroots majority of Chinese handsome.

So in short, if the grassroots majority of Chinese handsome wish to get an income of the same level as management position , they have to engage in prostitution .. Otherwide they will be oppressed to develop in career by the China ruling bloc in "normal sense" work arena and live in a downtrodden and underprivileged living.

justlistenall in reply to Bismarck888

@Bismarck888 in reply to justlistenall April 7th, 18:43

You claim: "When people disagree with you, you starting attacking people for lack of knowledge or using wikipedia. Did I use wikipedia."?

It’s not “attacking” you. it’s merely statement of fact. And the fact is that you don’t know much about Chinese or China.

See? You are already backtracking in this post from your earlier allegation after I pointed out the fallacy of it to you.

So you should stop acting as some Mr. know when you are not, and stop using that line of defense when you are being corrected.

And you should stop doing apple vs orange again. Your talking Vietnam and China is as bad and laughable as comparing Columbia with USA, as Columbia's GDP of about $280 b is less than 2% of USA GDP, similar to VN's GDP of about $90 b being less than 2% of China's GDP. They are simply relatively too tiny to compare meaningfully.

Even Columbia's GDP is 2.5 times bigger than VN's GDP with is only 10% of Taiwan GDP. There you have it.

Bismarck888 in reply to justlistenall

I never backtracked. Today's events just prove my point. All the so called knowledgeable Chinese posters where saying these are just rumors, Bo is going to come out of this Ok etc. But at the end what happened? Most of the rumors about Bo and his wife appear to be true. Secondly, the system was designed in the last twenty years to avoid this unpleasantness. It appears it has failed.

I have every right to compare China vs Vietnam's political system. Because they are similar. In fact China with its higher GDP and higher per Capita GDP should in fact be more stable than the Vietnamese political system. But its not. How many wives of senior Politburo member have detained for the murder of a foreigner in Vietnam? Why with all their money, the Chinese can't come up with something better. But they have not.

Some posters here were saying a week ago that Bo Xilai was going to reemerge, become Premier of China etc. When you question their judgement, their gut response is you don't know anything about China or you are not Chinese, just like you. Right now, it will take a miracle for Bo not to end up in jail.


In China, as well as in a lot of these chopstick countries in East Asia, losing face is a big deal. Individual morality, ethics and conscience do not play such a big role as in other parts of the world. This Lijun Wang incident was viewed by the Politburo as "losing a lot of face" to the "enemy" (the Americans), so Bo Bo black sheep with his Three Represents Full of Bull has to go, even though a lot of the children of the top functionaries in China (not just Bo's son) study in the West (Jinping Xi's daughter is at Harvard, no?). China is full of hypocrites. As Deng said black Bo or white Wen, it doesn't really matter that much as long as the Great Economic Leapfrog Forward (8% GDP growth is quite alright, no?) under the beneviolent goadance and coercive care of the CPC, without Maoist characteristics foundered on a boat in Nanhu Lake 90 years ago, but now with scientific opening-up outlook, Lois Vuitton handbags and Chateau Lafite (soon to be made in China?)

hmmmmmmm in reply to Sentinelese

Maoist characteristics is not founded on a boat in Nanhu Lake 90 years ago. What was founded on a boat in Nanhu lake 90 years ago was Trotskyism, though a bit later Leon Trotsky didn't fair too well against Stalin....


Is that why East Asia is one of the safest places in the world with incredibly low violent crime? East Asia has its fair share of corruption, but less so than much of the world (Latin America, South Asia, South East Asia, Africa). If you look past the inevitible and individual instances of corruption, the CCP actually does a surprisingly good job upholding Confucian ethics. In contrast, how well does Burma uphold its Buddhist ethics?

Why do you make such a big deal about the children of Chinese leaders studying in the West? The world's best schools are in the West. If you are rich and powerful and your children have the scores to get accepted, why wouldn't you send them to the best schools?

Burma has a higher homicide rate than China or Japan, but it does have a lower homicide rate than its Theravada Buddhist neighbors; but I suspect that is because Burma has lower inequality and probably a lot of homicide is lost in the sea of internal conflict.

More importantly, the Burmese military government has been engaged in large scale armed conflicts with insurgent groups for more than 50 years. Burma is not a safe country and probably ranks among the world's more dangerous.

The thing is, if you are talking about say, Rangoon, Mandalay, and other parts of what was referred to by the British as Lower Burma, which is inhabited mostly by Bamars, then yes, things would be stable and safe. However, other parts of the country that are inhabited by minorities, such as Shan, Kachin, Rohingans, Arakans, Karens, etc may be more tense and less stable, especially if there is still armed conflict going on between ethnic militias and the Tatmadaw, such as Kachin State.

Yes,Lower Burma ias stable and safe,I did some small projects in year 2,000 in Rangoon,Mandalay and Magwe,the situation was good.Major resources are inside the minirities' area.
I am also following closely the progress of various minorities with the Tatmadaw,it appears that Mon(2% of the population),Shan(9% of population),Karen or Kayin (7%),and the last major one,Kachin(1.5%)are all quite positive if Ms Aung san Suu Kyi is really going with the Generals,but will be slow and long process due to past bitter experience with the Tatmadaw,most of my Burmese friends and relatives are also watching the situation in silence.


Ok -- First, I have to ask a question. What Chinese word/concept translates to "handsome" in English? It seems to get used a lot, and in a rather odd context by Chinese speakers.

What's interesting to me is that people continually point out the bias in articles about China. Of course there's going to be a bias. They're Communists. The West hates Communists, especially the US and Eastern Europe. They're diametrically opposed to our ideals. Stability over freedom? That's heresy to some people. I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this one...the trick is to do it peacefully. Which, historically, doesn't stand a chance.

Sentinelese in reply to Sentinelese

I did see some "beautiful" Chinese women (as reported in Xinhua News) serving tea and acting as guides and reporters during the "Two Sessions" (NCP + CPCC) recently. (Xinhua does like to show a lot of "beautiful girls" on its front page!)

So you would prefer pretty boys to run national government rather than competent leaders? If I remember correctly, Hillary's looks are average at best. Dubya (George W.) was often made fun of for his large ears. FDR had polio and both of his legs were crippled, and the list goes on. I would prefer a competent leader over a pretty one any day, even if the former looks like a horse/donkey.

True, there are not many women in the politburo. However, there is a retired one - just look up Wu Yi. China is no better or worse than Japan, SK, Taiwan, etc. on women's participation in politics. As a matter fact, there are many female delegates in the National People's Congress. As for professional life and private industry, China's women have many more opportunities than their counterparts in other East Asian countries (there was even an Economist article about that). Just look up how many female millionaires and billionaires there are in China.

I think for the handsome thing you're referring to the frequent posts by "LiveInFearEverydayAndSufferDegeneration". If he is Chinese, he has a very special type of Chinglish and suffers from emotional problems. The concept (if not the ideal) of handsomeness is basically the same in China and the West. The above mentioned poster is just blaming the CCP for his inability to get a woman despite his supposed handsomeness.

Traditionally, the West hates Communists because Communists don't allow open markets that we can sell our stuff in and because they export revolution. Today's China is nothing like that. Their markets are open, they build our stuff, and they don't promote instability. It's only the name that bothers some people at this point.

If the concept of "stability over freedom" (really, "growth and development over freedom" in the case of China) was so diametrically opposed to western ideals, the USA wouldn't have the Patriot Act.

Saudi Arabia is a better example of a country diametrically opposed to American ideals; but yet they have been a loyal ally for 60 years. If we can get along with the Saudi's peacefully we can get along with the Chinese.

MrRFox in reply to OutsideOpinion

"Stability over freedom? That's heresy to some people. I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this one...the trick is to do it peacefully." (O.O. above)

"Peace" is overrated. Freedom trumps it every time.

AusChin in reply to BurkeanPluralist

LiveInFearEverydayAndSufferDegeneration is probably a Falungong member. His vocabulary on 'handsomeness' is typical of their religious vocabulary. Yes, he like many of their members has emotional issues and behave erratically. In fact, my impression is that they indoctrinated their members pretty heavily.


Note the "Reviving Five Thousand Years of Civilization" tag line by this performance company associated with the Falungong, which imply that China has degenerated and that it is their role to revive China. I recently saw plenty of these posters for this organization around Melbourne which is at an organizational scale beyond other mainstream Chinese religious group like Buddhism. Frankly I am not sure how they come to be so powerful. Could be externally funded perhaps? Or maybe their cultishness just allow them to draw huge amount of revenue from believers.

BurkeanPluralist in reply to AusChin

I was not aware that "handsome" was part of the FLG vocabulary. Very strange and interesting. But it is certainly a good strategy to tell the members that they are handsome but can't get women because of the evil CCP; which at least seems to be LFESD's perspective.

It is a well-documented and public fact that the FLG received funding from the US government. They are also well-organized (which is always a virtue). Too me the larger question is why are they so popular? "Cults", or New Religious Movements, are generally terrible at attracting and retaining members. Esoteric knowledge and elitism are always attractive (as exemplified by Scientology) but FLG is certainly not elitist and does not seem particularly hierarchic. Could it just be that many Chinese people want to retreat into magical beliefs?

AusChin in reply to BurkeanPluralist

Well I can't confirm if 'handsome' is actually a part of their jargon or not. But from how LFESD have spoken across his posts, its consistent with the way the members like to use positive and negative emotionally loaded terms to describe themselves and their political opponents.

I am not sure if they are actually that popular to be honest, I have yet to know a FLG member on an individual personal level. They would probably creep me out anyway from what I have seen of them on the internet. I have met plenty of Chinese Christians, Buddhists, agnostics/nonreligious and atheists. But I don't know any FLG member apart from the people who set up anti-CCP stands in front of Melbourne's Chinatown and Victoria Market.

Given that its not actually popular, it is surprising that they have their own newspaper channel, and even a performance company. But if they are get funding from the US government that explains how they were able to get these old ladies to stand all day distributing pamphlets and copies of the Epoch Times.

I am affiliated with Fo Guang Shan temple in Melbourne from Taiwan, and I can assure you that although they are more or less the largest Buddhist organization in Melbourne and perhaps Australia (as far as I can tell, since they are the ones organizing the Buddha's day festival every year), but I can also tell you that the temple do not have the resources to put old ladies distributing pamphlets or organizing a semi-professional dance troupe, since most things are run by volunteers who have their day jobs. Further more, the Buddhist devotees are more or less normal people who are not at all political and definitely not emotionally aggravated as LFESD. If anything, the religion emphasize having a positive mental outlook, since in their perspective, good words and deeds will naturally follow good thoughts. In any case, being emotionally unstable is not attractive, so that's really not gonna help LFESD with 'handsomeness'.


clever. Handsome is simply to mean " good-looking" . you can say that "just blaming the CCP for his inability to get a woman despite his supposed handsomeness" , but a little simple. People blame China authorities for maltreating the handsome ( esp. the grassroots majority from lower social class ) in the work to ruin their profession and development rights.

This is something about fair profession rights , eg. rights to be protected from unfair dismissal , malicious dismissal aimed at the good-looking chinese men initially instigated , abetted , clandestinely supported , and aberrantly enjoyed by China ruling class only for their lewdness, eg. for more Chinese concubines.

So this is also something about the unbridled lewdness across China mostly caused by China ruling class.

i just leak the truth about the handsome from lower social class in China , about their misery , tragedy , about their underprivileged and downtrodden living..., mostly caused by the China ruling class for their endless lust of grabbing for China concubines.
By the way ,the China ruling class even conspires to turn China socitey into one that is spurred on by sensual motivation . This inevitably causes lewdness.
Does it have anything to do with the organizaiton you mentioned? How did you make such a rash conclusion ...


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