Saga The Obi Wan & Anakin Trilogy...what went wrong?

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by CoolyFett, Oct 1, 2012.

Moderators: Darth_Nub, Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn
  1. Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn The Other Saga Moderator

    Member Since:
    Sep 23, 1999
    star 6
    That's what connotation means. Some people got the sense that X was the case, based on the source material. I cop to not having done exit polls of theaters, har har. But my point is that I have seen this particular type of complaint (PMT's) a lot (haven't you?), and it's because (based on the script for ROTJ, what little behind-the-scenes info we have, and the rough draft of TPM) the story that underlay that version of the saga was different than what eventually ended up in the prequels. You didn't comment on my analogy; not to seem too proud, but I think it's a fair one.
  2. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    If "connotes" is subjective, saying "ROTJ connotes ______" just means "ROTJ connotes ______" to you. It does not mean that the film itself indicates anything of the sort.

    The script for ROTJ says no such thing, though.

    How does the rough draft of TPM really prove anything about the production of ROTJ?
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Nov 8, 2012
  3. Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn The Other Saga Moderator

    Member Since:
    Sep 23, 1999
    star 6
    Please go back to my analogy about the cat. True, a single line can connote lots of things to different people; it depends on what each of them brings to it. However, certain turns of phrase, writerly appeals to archetypes, etc, tend to push in certain directions. I suspect this is what happened in the OT, because a lot of people seem to have drawn very similar conclusions about what the PT-era events would have been like. When Leia says she remembers her real mother dying when she was very young, or Ben says Yoda is "the Jedi master who instructed me," these lines are technically accurate given the PT as we know it, but stick out because the naive conclusions (Leia was a little girl at the time her mother died; Ben was Yoda's apprentice) are different than what the prequel films eventually showed. The interesting part is, naive conclusions like those match both the conclusions reached by viewers like PMT and versions of the story before the release of TPM. It's not like one crazy old man watched ESB and somehow thought Ben was Yoda's apprentice. That's the way it's phrased, totally reasonable given the background given in the previous films and what we now know about Lucas's plans between ROTJ and TPM.

    And I was merely using the ROTJ script as an example of how the PT-era backstory was different as of ROTJ. I know it doesn't mention whether or not Anakin ever met any Jedi beside Ben.
    Last edited by Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn, Nov 8, 2012
  4. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Obi-Wan still could have been Yoda's apprentice in the formal sense ( not the youngling group thing ) before being turned over to Qui-Gon sometime before TPM. Though the films do not establish any such thing, they also do not preclude it. But this is kind of an apples and oranges situation. TESB has Ben say "the Jedi Master who instructed me", but the OT never has Ben say "I discovered Anakin" and never has anyone say "Anakin never met any Jedi other than Obi-Wan". The latter assumption in particular is highly doubtful given that nothing in the films even leans in that direction and Yoda's TESB dialogue arguably goes against it to some extent.
  5. Iron_lord Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    "When I first met your father, he was already a great pilot, but I was amazed by how strongly the Force was with him. I took it upon myself to train him as a Jedi."

    The prequel version downplays "pilot" to "podracer driver".
  6. FARK2005 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 2
    I don’t know what led you to believe that, but that is not my opinion. What I think is this: Padmé believed that if she could only talk to Anakin then she could make him see reason, and that if they went to Obi-Wan and asked for help then he would give it. So what Padmé believes is that she and Obi-Wan could help Anakin save himself.

    But the fact that Obi-Wan gives Padmé time to speak to Anakin and only reveals himself when it’s clear that Anakin is beyond reason indicates (to me at least) that Obi-Wan still hoped that Anakin was not completely lost – that he would not have to kill him. When he sees him choking Padmé he realizes that Anakin is lost and that a confrontation is unavoidable.

    There is a tremendous distance between knowing what you have to do and actually doing it. Also, Anakin was Obi-Wan’s first apprentice and it’s quite clear that the two of them were close – closer than what was wise for Jedi. Yoda was very old and had had many apprentices (and many friends) that he had seen pass away, so he had long ago learned how to shield himself from loving such “temporal things” too strongly or his heart would have been broken long ago. So I don’t think you can compare Yoda-Dooku with Obi-Wan-Anakin because Obi-Wan loved Anakin deeply enough to consider him a brother, while to Yoda did not have such deep feelings for Dooku.

    Yes he does, because thanks to Palpatine’s unlimited praise Anakin has a very high opinion of himself. Obi-Wan and Palpatine are like two parents raising a child where one parent has to do all the disciplining while the other does all the fun – Palpatine spent all his time telling Anakin how gifted and powerful he was, while Obi-Wan consequently had to reign him in and ensure he didn’t bite off more than he could chew; therefore it’s no wonder if Obi-Wan was a strict teacher or if Anakin came to perceive him as such. Despite of this, in AotC Anakin also says that he’s “truly thankful to be his apprentice”.

    Where in the movies does Anakin say that he blames Obi-Wan for Shmi’s death, could you provide a quote please?

    I’m wondering if we’ve seen the same movies, but to me, AotC and especially RotS makes it quite clear that the two of them were very close. In AotC, the fact that Anakin says Obi-Wan is like his father clearly indicates a close relationship despite the fact that it is strained by their master-padawan status. In RotS Anakin refuses to leave Obi-Wan to certain death twice (going as far as ignoring Palpatine’s urgings to leave him behind), and he even humbles himself before Obi-Wan and apologizes for being arrogant and unappreciative of his training. And Obi-Wan reveals that he loved Anakin like a brother. I very much doubt Anakin would label Obi-Wan “father” and Obi-Wan label Anakin “brother” if there was little to no love between them.

    Yes it’s my hypothesis that should a similar situation arise in which Anakin had to choose between Padmé and the Jedi, he would still choose Padmé no matter who had been his master (of course such situation may not have occurred if Anakin had been trained by a different master) – I’m not sure what point you’re making though..?

    I never said that Padmé believed Obi-Wan could help him, but that she believed Obi-Wan would try to help him if Anakin asked him. It’s true that Obi-Wan never made such promise, but Padmé knows that he cares for Anakin and judging by his demeanour in her apartment I think she recognized that Anakin’s actions was forcing Obi-Wan to do something he’s doesn’t really want to do – that his heart is not in it – which is what led her to believe that Obi-Wan would not simply kill Anakin if he came to him asking for help.

    Once again I would very much like a reference to this.

    Why would Anakin blame Obi-Wan for his mother’s death? The only time Obi-Wan and Anakin discuss Shmi is in AotC, where it’s revealed that Anakin is having disturbing dreams about her – to quote Anakin: “I don't know why I keep dreaming about her.” So at this point even Anakin considers them to be no more than dreams, and never once does he tell Obi-Wan that he believes these dreams are visions nor does he ask him if he could go check up on Shmi. And at Shmi’s funeral Anakin says: “I wasn't strong enough to save you, mom. I wasn't strong enough. But I promise I won't fail again”, which indicates to me that he blames himself for her death – not Obi-Wan.

    I think it’s pretty clear from the way the Mustafar-scene plays out that Padmé fails in her attempt to reason with Anakin – and that she realises this herself. Anakin’s behaviour is that of someone who believes he has chosen the right path and consequently shows no remorse for his actions; Padmé’s reaction (stepping away from him with a disbelieving/hurt expression, starting to cry) to his response to her desperate plea to go away with her and leave everything behind indicates that she realised that Anakin is beyond reason – she even tells him that she cannot go down that path with him.

    I agree that Obi-Wan made Padmé look bad – but from his POV I can understand why he chose that moment to reveal himself: he heard Padmé try and fail to reason with Anakin at which point he decided he needed to take action.

    I’m wondering what would have happened if Obi-Wan hadn’t hidden aboard her ship. To me Anakin’s demeanour is that of a person who is completely convinced that he’s doing the right thing and therefore not susceptible to reason – not even Padmé’s. So how would Anakin have reacted if she had eventually turned her back on him to leave? I find it very likely that Anakin would have reacted the same way he did when he believed she had brought Obi-Wan to kill him – with an outburst of uncontrollable anger that caused him to harm her.

    No it doesn’t make any sense, but from the moment Anakin became an accomplice in Mace’s murder he doesn’t really make any sensible choices until he decides to save Luke. Yes, his “Noooo”-scream may very well have been because he realised everything was for nothing, but it could also be a reaction to Palpatine’s revelation that he was the one that killed Padmé.

    What is clear is that twenty years later he has still not gotten rid of Palpatine and is still pursuing his goal to rule the Galaxy – this time with Luke’s help.

    Problem is Anakin was not remorseful at this point; he fully believed he had made the right choices and had the power he needed to make things exactly as he wanted them to be, he didn’t think he needed help from anyone – not Obi-Wan or even Padmé. In his disillusioned mind he had everything under control.

    That really depends on how you interpret the apology. It’s clear you take it to mean “I’m sorry I have to kill your love”, but I interpret it as “I’m so sorry for you that your love and the father of your child has become a mass murderer and is helping to destroy everything you believe in and has worked so hard for”.

    Couple that with Obi-Wan’s demeanour, I think Padmé realised that Anakin’s actions was forcing Obi-Wan into a position he didn’t want to be in – and that if Anakin could be turned back to the Light side and show remorse, Obi-Wan would not simply cut him down.

    But does arrogance and a big ego lead directly to the Dark side? In AotC Yoda states that arrogance is common among the Jedi – he is not happy about it, but neither is it treated the same way as fear, anger, or hate.

    1. To you maybe. To me, it sounds like he’s warning Anakin that if he insists on continuing down that path he will not stand by and do nothing. The fact that Obi-Wan doesn’t attack is a clear indication that he’s leaving Anakin to decide where to go from there, and Anakin chose to attack. I very much doubt that if Anakin had thrown aside his weapon and surrendered to Obi-Wan, that Obi-Wan would simply walk over kill him.

    2. So in the middle of a hectic fight Obi-Wan should have known that his warning to Anakin could be interpreted as an insult? I think you ask a lot of a man who has been driven to the edge of his limits and beyond. Do you think that if he hadn’t warned Anakin, then Anakin would not have made that risky manoeuvre? I got to say I very much doubt such theory. Besides, apart from before the fight began, this was the perfect opportunity to warn Anakin to back down because this time Obi-Wan held a clear advantage over him – an advantage that would bring the fight to an end one way or another.

    But no matter what, it doesn’t change the fact that Obi-Wan did give Anakin the chance to give up before it was too late – I don’t think he should be blamed for Anakin not being in a rational state of mind.
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  7. Valairy Scot Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
  8. FARK2005 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 2
  9. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Not just any podracer driver - Boonta winner ( who self-identifies as a pilot capable of flying a ship offworld ).

    And it's knew, not met.
  10. THE PortmanLuvva Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 26, 2012
    star 2
    Darkside percentage for anakin

    TPM 0%
    AOTC 20% (only occasional)
    Middle of ROTS 50%
    End of ROTS 95%
    ANH 100%
    ESB 100%
    Middle of ROTJ 75%
    End of ROTJ 0%

    Obi wan Percentage darkside 0% all the way through. Simple answer to why they struggled in my opinion. [face_sigh]
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  11. CoolyFett Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 3, 2003
    star 4
  12. Lord Tyrannus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2012
    star 4
    Why did Obi wan kenobi cut off darth vader's limbs? Why didn't, he, after he was burning, just kill him?

    Second of all, Anakin skywalker turned to the darkside, because, after killing Mace Windu, or helping to kill him, the Jedi would kill him for betrayal. "When the Jedi learn what has transcribed here, they will kill us both". So, what's the point of padme and kenobi trying to turn skywalker back to the light side? He did it to protect himself from the Jedi, because there was no turning back after Mace windu's death..... Sorry, guys, I am evil because I wanted to protect myself from you Jedi after making a terrible mistake. So don't ask me to come back, since it's your fault I'm like this in the first place.....

    It was mentioned by George Lucas in the Revenge of the Sith DVD commentary that Anakin thought he was doing the right thing saving Palpatine's life when he cut off Windu's hand with his lightsaber. However, Anakin did not think that Palpatine would kill Windu, and as a result of Windu's death Anakin believed that he had gone too far to be forgiven. To save his life, he had no other choice but to join with Palpatine.
  13. FARK2005 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 2
    It was discussed on the temp-board and I’ll give you the same answer I gave there:

    When Anakin jumps, Obi-Wan’s decision to wound rather than kill him is based on reflexive emotions and instinctive evaluations/feelings, which involve an automatic “filtration” of acceptable and unacceptable actions based on earlier experiences that resulted in reward/punishment (happiness, pain, shame, joy etc.), and which kicks in long before rational consciousness. Obi-Wan loved Anakin like a brother (perhaps like a son) and his feelings made the option to deliver a killing blow in that specific situation (in which he has a choice between letting Anakin live or killing him directly) unacceptable and hence impossible.

    Ah, no. Anakin turned to the Dark side because he wanted the power to save Padmé. Unwittingly assisting in Mace’s murder made him cross some kind of mental boundary at which point he decided he might as well go all the way – it wasn’t because he feared the Jedi, though. The quote you use is said by Sidious after Anakin has become his apprentice so Anakin had already turned to the Dark side at this point. Also, being a Jedi, Anakin knew they would not simply kill someone who would willingly surrender to them.

    Because Padmé and Obi-Wan loved Anakin and they knew the road he had chosen was self-destructive, and people usually try to help their loved ones.

    Once again, Anakin turned to the Dark side to gain the power to save Padmé, which is supported by Lucas:

    "This is the point where Anakin has to make a decision. His rationalization is: 'Everybody is after power. Even the Jedi are after power.' Therefore, he thinks, 'They're all equally corrupt now. So which side am I going to be on? Do I align myself with Palpatine, who is a Sith Lord and who can possibly help me save Padmé? Or do I side with the Jedi and maybe lose Padmé?'" – The Making of Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith

    Yes and I believe this is what Lucas said:

    “He didn't realise Palpatine was going to kill him (Mace). So up to that point he was trying to do the right thing but now he's realising that with Mace dead he’s crossed over the line and he sorta succumbs and says yes, I’ll do anything you ask so you can allow me to keep my wife alive.”

    There is no mention of Anakin fearing Jedi retribution, but once again it’s saving Padmé that’s the motivating factor for him turning.
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  14. PMT99 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2000
    star 4
    A lot of people care or else, this topic wouldn't even exist.

    And yet, Vader never mentions Yoda's name even when Yoda was introduced in ESB. Vader keeps mentioned how well Obi-wan has trained Luke but he couldn't see in Luke's mind that it was Yoda who did most of Luke's training. It's like Vader had no idea that Yoda even exists so it's not that hard to believe that Vader and Yoda never met.

    Except for the part where Anakin keeps mentioning Obi-wan's name throughout the OT as if Obi-wan is the only Jedi Anakin has met.

    Even if Obi-wan was impressed, that didn't persuade him to make Anakin a Jedi. It was Qui-Gon's dying wish that convinced Obi-wan to take it upon himself to train Anakin.


    Even Yoda can sense that Obi-wan is only adopting Anakin as his apprentice because Qui-Gon made him promise.

    Yes, it does because the creation of Qui-Gon Jinn takes away Obi-wan's "I took it upon myself to train him as a Jedi" comment. When Obi-wan said that, I thought it meant that he was the only one who found Anakin and supported him enough to make Anakin his apprentice, not picked up some other Jedi's scraps after they've died. Plus in TPM, Obi-wan never wanted Anakin to be a Jedi despite how he was "amazed at how strongly the Force was with Anakin" which left Qui-Gon to do the honors. Finally, Anakin and Obi-wan are supposed to be "good friends" but for obvious reasons, they're not. The only part from Obi-wan that is true is that he was wrong to assume that he could train Anakin better than Yoda could but it's not his fault that PalpSidious is manipulating Anakin behind Obi-wan's back. I don't have a problem with the ESB retcon, It's just that Obi-wan's entire description of his relationship with Anakin doesn't match with what we saw in the prequels.

    But you said it yourself, Anakin will do whatever it takes to save Padme. Even if it meant betraying and killing all the Jedi so it wouldn't have mattered if Mace had simply arrested PalpSidious. The outcome would still be just like the movie except Anakin will help PalpSidious escape custody and be blackmailed into helping him murder all the Jedi. As torn up as Anakin was over who to side with, he still wanted PalpSidious to live.

    If they don't betray me or try to kill me over a fake promise of learning some made up, life-saving power, then I would consider that person a good friend. The second Anakin turned to the Dark side, his somewhat friendship with Obi-wan came to an end.

    Obi-wan wouldn't need protecting if Anakin hadn't rushed after Dooku and got himself electrocuted out of the fight. Besides, Anakin protected PalpSidious from both Mace and Luke when they tried to kill him and yet, Anakin hates PalpSidious' guts.

    But Padme should know that after Anakin lost his mother, he would never want Obi-wan's help again. She heard Anakin say that it's Obi-wan's fault that his mother died, he wouldn't go to Geonosis to save Obi-wan, he wouldn't tell him about his visions of Padme's death, nor does he feel that Obi-wan will let him go after he betrayed and helped PalpSidious murder all the Jedi. Even though Padme believes that there's still good in Anakin, I doubt that she believes that Obi-wan shares that same belief. Otherwise, she would've told Obi-wan where to find Anakin or ask him to accompany her to Mustafar.

    I doubt that Obi-wan allowing Padme to speak to Anakin means that he still has hope that Anakin can be saved. Maybe, he's keeping himself hidden so that he won't provoke Anakin into attacking Padme and that he'll only step out in case Anakin does decide to harm her. When Obi-wan hears that Padme is unable to reason with Anakin, then he comes out of hiding and things went badly from there.

    If Yoda learned to shield himself from loving "such temporal things" so strongly, then he did a terrible job. He felt tremendous pain over sensing all the Jedi being killed off simultaneously in ROTS which shows us that Yoda loved each and every Jedi like they were his grandchildren (except for the 2 men who betrayed them all). I'm sure Yoda felt betrayed by Dooku's actions just like Obi-wan felt betrayed by what Anakin has done and both Jedi end up fighting their former apprentices to the end.

    Anakin: Why did she have to die? Why couldn't I save her? I know I could have!
    Padme: Sometimes, there are things noone can fix. You're not all powerful, Anakin.
    Anakin: Well, I should be. Someday, I will be. I will be the most powerful Jedi ever. I promise you, I will even learn to stop people from dying.
    Padme: Anakin.
    Anakin: It's all Obi-wan's fault. He's jealous. He's holding me back!

    Right here, Anakin blames Obi-wan for Shmi's death because he thinks Obi-wan gave him stupid advice about letting dreams pass in time. Anakin feels that if he hadn't listened to Obi-wan, he would've rushed to his mother's aid much earlier and she would still be alive. If Anakin was so thankful to be Obi-wan's apprentice, he would not be so quick to follow Mace's order to stay put on Tatooine instead of charging to Geonosis to rescue Obi-wan. Padme had to force Anakin into disobeying Mace by insisting that she go to Geonosis and that he protect her by coming along.

    My point is that Anakin and Obi-wan are NOT as close as you think they are. In AOTC, Anakin says that Obi-wan is like a father to him but he challenges his authority in front of Padme and her staff, he refuses to follow orders from Obi-wan, he left Obi-wan alone to fight Dooku, and he blames Obi-wan for his problems. In ROTS, I can see that Anakin and Obi-wan had a close relationship but once Anakin has the visions of Padme's death, he won't go to Obi-wan for help, he thinks Obi-wan doesn't trust him, and was willing to betray and murder Obi-wan without hesitation. On Obi-wan's part, (in AOTC) he puts Anakin down after he challenges his authority, he tells Yoda and Mace that Anakin is arrogant and not ready to go on his solo assignment, and he threaten to expel Anakin for wanting to stop the gunship so he could save Padme. (In ROTS) Obi-wan says that he's on Anakin's side but he speaks for the Council when he tells Anakin to spy on Palpatine. Even though he was unwilling to kill Anakin, that didn't stop Obi-wan from cutting off his remaining limbs and leaving him to burn. Obi-wan didn't even try to save him or put him out of his misery while he's on fire so he just left him to suffer a painful death.

    Anakin/Obi-wan are the Laurel and Hardy of the Star Wars universe.

    But again, Padme should know that Anakin will never want Obi-wan's help after he blamed him for Shmi's death. Obi-wan may not want to kill Anakin but he can't ignore what he has done so Padme shouldn't expect anything from Obi-wan.

    First off, see the reference above. Second, Anakin only blamed himself for taking Obi-wan's advice about letting "dreams pass in time". At first, Anakin may not have known that his dreams of Shmi's death were visions but once he got to Tatooine and watched his mother die in his arms, that's when he realizes that his dreams can become reality. It is because of that, Anakin refuses to ignore the visions of Padme's death.

    If Padme were to go into labor at that moment, Anakin will see that the Dark side will not help him save her. He'll realize that everything he's done will not prevent Padme from giving birth to Luke and Leia. Whether if Padme lives or dies after childbirth, it will be completely out of Anakin's control. As it is, we both agree that Padme tried and failed to reason with Anakin and Obi-wan made things worse for her by stepping out of her ship.

    Even if that happened, it would cause Anakin to have the same "What have I done?" reaction just like when he allowed PalpSidious to kill Mace. Only this time, it will give Anakin the chance to see that Padme was right and will stop himself from actually killing her. Padme will have eventually win Anakin back over to the good side but Obi-wan's presence ruined it for her which caused Anakin to go further down the path of evil.

    Thanks to Obi-wan, Anakin no longer has the strength to physically overpower PalpSidious. I hear from either the storyboards or the ROTS novelization that when Anakin tried to make the whole medical room collapse, it was because he tried to use his Force powers to kill PalpSidious. However due to his injuries, Anakin only destroyed the medical droids, glass, walls, and equipment so you're right that Anakin couldn't get rid of PalpSidious without Luke's help.

    The apology can mean both things. Obi-wan feels sorry for Padme because he's about to rob her of her husband and father to her children all because he turned into a mass murderer whose helping PalpSidious, the man who masterminded everything including the invasion of Padme's home planet. As for Obi-wan hoping that Anakin can be turned back to the light side, he doesn't think it's possible since it's never happened before throughout Jedi history. No Jedi who has turned to the Dark side has ever renounced him/herself from it and Obi-wan doesn't expect that Anakin will be the first to do this.

    When you have such high expectations of yourself and things do not go your way, then arrogance and a big ego can lead to the Dark side. It be like a spoiled rich kid who throws a violent tantrum all because he didn't get enough toys or money which is how Anakin behaved after he lost his mother and slaughtered a whole village of sandpeople. Anakin thinks he's already more powerful than Yoda but next to his failure to save his mom, he also failed to defeat Count Dooku in AOTC. Ever since then, Anakin has been on a major power frenzy from wanting to be given the rank of Jedi master to accepting PalpSidious' offer to turn to the Dark side to save Padme. Anakin's fear of losing Padme was just the sentitive PalpSidious needs to hook Anakin over to the Sith.

    1. When Obi-wan ignited his lightsaber, he provoked Anakin into attacking him. When you pull a knife (or sword) against someone, they aren't going surrender themselves to you especially if they have a weapon of their own.

    2. Yes, Obi-wan had a clear advantage but Anakin mistook it as him disrespecting his abilities. Anakin was never going to back down and Obi-wan should've known that Anakin will never listen to him which led to Obi-wan slicing off Anakin's limbs and leaving him to burn.
  15. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    A lot of people care what you're okay with, or else this topic wouldn't exist? Okay then...

    If Yoda's not relevant to the conversation, why would he come up? Vader can have been known to Yoda without feeling the need to mention his name. [ By extension of this line of reasoning Vader also didn't know the mother of his child, because he doesn't mention her either. ]

    Because Obi-Wan showed up on the DS, and he knew Obi-Wan and Luke had been in contact. So far so good...

    This does not follow.

    The point was that the line about being amazed at his Force strength is still accurate.

    This is still a case of Obi-Wan taking it upon himself to train Anakin. You're trying to narrow the connotation of that phrase so that it is only wide enough to support your stance.

    None of the above has to do with the issue of the turn. It was never said or even implied that Obi-Wan found Anakin. That is your own invention. That the PT declined to support this invention is not a fault of the PT or any kind of evidence that the trilogies are inconsistent. The only inconsistency is between the PT and your own assumptions.

    Actually, they are; this was depicted in the films.

    It does match, and this is where the implicit problem with TESB comes up. You're holding Anakin's post-turn behavior against the description of Anakin pre-turn. This makes no sense, yet is squatting in a place which would otherwise be occupied by legitimate points.
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Nov 13, 2012
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  16. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4
    I don't think it would have come to that honestly. Had Mace taken Palpatine into custody, I think Anakin would have been just fine with keeping him in prison and then interrogating him for information. Moreover, I do think Anakin would have admitted to the Jedi what he needed Palpatine for, if it came down to it. When confronted with the situation between Mace and Palpatine, Anakin reacted quickly, without time to really plny (he even says "What have I done?" right after). But even so, he does tell Mace Windu that he needs Palpatine alive. Had Palpatine been arrested, I don't think it would have come to that and Anakin would not have turned.

    Sure, but again, you have to take into account the fact that Anakin turns and then betrays and tries to kill Obi-Wan, but before that, Obi-Wan definitely considered him a friend. It matches up with the OT just fine. No matter how the relationship was portrayed in the PT, it was always going to have to turn out that way (with betrayal and a duel), so I don't see what your issue is.

    And it's clear before Anakin's turn that Obi-Wan considers him a friend -- "Goodbye, old friend" are his words to Anakin as he leaves Coruscant to battle Grievous.

    Anakin made a mistake because he was emotional. Yeah he should have thought his actions through, but it was his first duel with a Sith and his first battle in a war. He wasn't experienced and he got cocky and overestimated his abilities. That doesn't mean he didn't consider Obi-Wan a friend. Have you ever heard of friendly fire? Sometimes soldiers shoot their friends by accident or because they make a mistake. That doesn't mean they don't care about them. In this case, Anakin jumped in to protect Obi-Wan as soon as he could, because he cared about him. Rather different than his protection of Palpatine -- whom he only wanted information from. I don't see why this is such an issue for you.
    Last edited by PiettsHat, Nov 13, 2012
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  17. FARK2005 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 2
    There is no reason she should know that Anakin would “never want Obi-wan's help again” considering Anakin mainly blamed himself for his mother’s death. It’s true that Anakin blamed Obi-Wan for him not being powerful enough to save his mother, but I think Padmé understood the reason why Anakin said that was because he was in deep anguish over Shmi’s death – over his failure to save her – and it’s not unusual for someone in such situation to lash out at others and blame them for their own faults so as to remove focus from their own pain and feelings of inadequacy.

    I think it’s very clear that Anakin wants to go to Geonosis to save Obi-Wan, but that he is torn between his desire and his duty: Anakin’s duty was to protect Padmé and bringing her to the very people who had ordered her killed would not be a smart move. We also see Anakin smile when Padmé takes charge and declares that if he plans to protect her he will have to follow her to Geonosis, because she enables for him to do what he desires without neglecting his duty.

    I think the main reason Anakin didn’t want to tell Obi-Wan about his visions of Padmé was because he knew there was no way of telling him without revealing his deep feelings for Padmé, and he knew there would likely be consequences if Obi-Wan learned of their relationship and he was not willing to face them at the time.

    As I said in an earlier post, I think the main reason Padmé doesn’t bring Obi-Wan with her is because she wants to talk to Anakin alone and because she knew that if the two of them would meet while Anakin was still lost to the dark side they would inevitable clash. It’s also worth noting that Padmé was willing to go away with Anakin and leave everything behind (if he in turn would abandon the path he was on) – she offered him a new start, just he, her and the baby, and having Obi-Wan onboard the ship would be counterproductive should Anakin accept her offer.

    But then why allow Padmé to leave the ship and talk with Anakin in the first place if he didn’t hope she could talk some sense into him? If Obi-Wan fully believed Anakin to be lost there is no reason he would allow her to leave the ship and endanger herself.

    The very fact that Yoda didn’t go mad with the pain of grief when feeling the deaths of the Jedi proves that he did an excellent job. When I said I believed Yoda had learned to shield himself from loving too strongly those he would only loose all to soon (the life of a human for instance would be fleeting compared to his long life) I didn’t mean that it would make him unable to love and care for other people, but that he had learned not to love them too deeply. Yoda’s reaction to the deaths of the Jedi is very alike to Obi-Wan’s when he senses the destruction of Alderaan in ANH, the main difference between the two is that Yoda personally knows many of the people in question. Yes I agree that Yoda felt betrayed by Dooku’s actions.

    No, he faults Obi-Wan for holding him back and therefore not being more powerful – it has nothing to do with the “dream-conversation”-scene. Obi-Wan gave Anakin advise based on the information Anakin gave him; as I said earlier, when Obi-Wan and Anakin discuss the subject, Anakin himself calls them dreams, so why should Obi-Wan consider them to more than dreams. If Anakin had said: “hey master, these disturbing dreams about my mother I’ve been having lately, I have reason to believe that they are more than dreams and I think my mother is in terrible danger so would it be possible to check up on her?” then Obi-Wan’s advise would have been wrong, but based on what Anakin told him it was the best advise he could give at the time.

    If Anakin truly blamed Obi-Wan for Shmi’s death I very much doubt he would have continued to put Obi-Wan’s life before the mission like he does in RotS, nor would he have continued to associate with him in a friendly way after he was knighted.

    Like I said, there is plenty of evidence that Anakin wants to go and rescue Obi-Wan, but going would be against doing his duty – that is why he smiles when Padmé creates a situation in which he can go rescue Obi-Wan while fulfilling his duty. If he had truly been unwilling to go Anakin would have stopped Padmé from going.

    Just because you refuse to acknowledge the (in my opinion) very obvious evidence of Obi-Wan’s and Anakin’s close relationship does not mean that it’s not true.

    In AotC Anakin has a very high opinion of himself (he believes he’s ready for the trials, that he rivals Yoda in lightsaber-combat, that he in many areas is ahead of Obi-Wan) and he challenges Obi-Wan’s authority because all he can think of is that someone is trying to kill Padmé and he will do everything in his power to prevent that from happening and find the guilty ones. And of course Obi-Wan puts Anakin in his place: he was making promises they would not be able to keep – Anakin promised an investigation which they were not allowed to conduct at that time. I once worked in a company where father and son was director and assistant director respectively, and they argued (quite furiously at times) and the son often challenged his father’s authority and they fell out with one another from time to time, but they still loved each other deeply.

    Anakin left Obi-Wan to fight Dooku because he was angry at him: Dooku was partly responsible for the assassination attempts on Padmé, the deaths of the many Jedi in the arena, and directly responsible for Padmé falling out of the gunship. So in his anger and arrogance (Dooku was just an old man and should not be a problem for him to bring down) he rushed ahead in the heat of the moment and was quickly brought down.

    Obi-Wan is Anakin’s master and his concerns for his apprentice are well founded: he knows arrogance and overconfidence goes hand in hand, and overconfidence is very likely to get him killed; he is also worried that Anakin’s feelings for Padmé might cloud his judgement. He does not threaten to expel Anakin from the Order – he doesn’t have that kind of prerogative – he in no uncertain terms warns Anakin that expulsion will be the consequence should he abandon his duty to capture Dooku and end the war in favour of his personal feelings.

    On Mustafar Obi-Wan is faced with an emotional dilemma: on one hand he is facing a person who is a threat to the Galaxy and everyone around him, but on the other hand this person is someone he has raised since he was nine and who he loves deeply. When Anakin jumps at him, his senses register danger and without conscious thought he reacts by the way of acquired reflexes and neutralizes the danger. The reason he doesn’t kill Anakin is because for the last 13-14 years his feelings have dictated he protect Anakin, and therefore his instincts and reflexive emotions made it impossible for him to deliver a killing blow. Couple this with the closest we’ll ever see Obi-Wan get to an emotional breakdown and we have an explanation for his actions – and it’s not a lack of love.

    Again, there is no reason why Padmé should think Anakin would never want Obi-Wan’s help because she knew that despite of him lashing out, he blamed himself more than anyone for his inability to save her. Obi-Wan could not ignore what Anakin had done, but he was also a Jedi and thus would never kill Anakin if he surrendered to him – Padmé knew this as well.

    So in your opinion he is blaming Obi-Wan for not being omnipotent and knowing that when Anakin talked about having dreams it was in fact visions. The very reference you provide suggest otherwise as does Anakin’s words at his mother’s grave: it’s all about him (Anakin) not being powerful enough – his failure to achieve the power he believe he could/should have.

    I agree that his visions of Shmi are a contributing factor in stopping his premonitions about Padmé from coming to fulfilment – but again Anakin’s main concern is not that he didn’t heed the visions of his mother sooner, but that he wasn’t powerful enough to save her, and that is why he accepts the power Palpatine offer him.

    You are free to believe whatever you want, but I certainly find no evidence in the scene to suggest this would have been the case. Without Obi-Wan there to call him out of order Anakin may very well have been unable to stop himself in time and killed Padmé – and even if he didn’t he still feared she would die in childbirth and therefore still want the power to save her. It is also very clear from Anakin’s demeanour that he is set on the path he has chosen and nothing anyone say or do will change his mind – Padmé realises this as well, which is why she becomes so upset.

    Who said Anakin had to physically confront Sidious? All it would take was a well-placed bomb on his personal shuttle, in his office or in his personal quarters. He could put his pilot-skills to good use and shoot him out of the sky, or make use of his technical skills and rewire his ship to go into a sun… the possibilities are endless. I think one of the reasons Anakin didn’t really put his mind to killing him was that he hoped Sidious could still offer him knowledge of the Dark side and help him become more powerful, but after twenty years he realised Sidious was not interested in granting him that power, but had set his eyes on a new apprentice to teach.

    I disagree, I think it's very clear that Obi-Wan is aware that it is Anakin’s actions that is forcing him into this position and that by turning to the Dark side it is Anakin himself that is robbing Padmé and the baby of their husband/father. It is reflected in his reply to Anakin when being accused of turning Padmé against him, he says: “You have done that yourself.”

    Yes all his knowledge on the area tells him that once you turn to the Dark side there is no going back, but his love for Anakin – his hope that he wasn’t completely lost – made him disregard that knowledge until he saw him chocking Padmé. It is not uncommon to disregard the reality of a situation when it concerns someone you love; if someone you love dearly is diagnosed with a terminal disease it doesn’t stop you from hoping that somehow they will find a way to beat the disease – that they will be the exception to the rule.

    But Anakin’s desire for power did not stem from arrogance but from his inability to protect the people he loved the most. Also I don’t think you can compare a spoiled child throwing a tantrum with Anakin’s behaviour in the garage: his mother had just died in his arms after having been tortured for a long time – he was in terrible pain over her death and his failure to save her, but he also felt immense guilt over loosing control and slaughtering an entire village. So not only did he fail his mother, he also failed as a Jedi, and that is not the same as a child getting upset over not getting what he/she wants.

    1. So when a police officer draws his weapon when arresting an armed and extremely dangerous suspect and the suspect responds by firing his weapon at the officer then it’s the policeman’s fault that the encounter ends I violence? Anakin knows why Obi-Wan is there, he also knows Obi-Wan is a Jedi and won’t attack if he surrenders, the problem is Anakin is desperate for the power to save Padmé and therefore has no intention of surrendering.

    2. Anakin was a warrior in his own right and had he not been drunk on the power of the Dark side he would have known that that Obi-Wan held the advantage and accepted the warning such as it was.

    Again, it was not Obi-Wan’s fault that Anakin was not in a right state of mind – he offered him opportunities to back down which was ignored and he was merely reacting to Anakin’s actions.
    kainee, Arawn_Fenn, Iron_lord and 2 others like this.
  18. CoolyFett Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 3, 2003
    star 4
    Anakin seems to be the same guy in ANH that he was in ROTS.
  19. DRush76 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2008
    star 4
    It's a good guess, but I suspect that we really don't know how Anakin would have responded if Mace had actually arrested Palpatine. We don't even know if the Senate would have accepted Palpatine's arrest.
  20. only one kenobi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2012
    star 3
    ..nor do we know that Palpatine would allow himself to be taken into custody. Indeed, he could not allow it - he has to force Anakin's hand. Simply put, there is, as I see it, no way that Mace can take Palpatine into custody.
  21. DRush76 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2008
    star 4

    Yoda's reaction to the deaths of Jedi Masters, Knights and padawans was to go after and kill Palpatine without informing the Senate of his intentions. After his fight with Palpatine ended, he realized that he had made a big mistake in attacking the new Emperor. The Jedi Order meant a lot to Yoda . . . at times, too much.
    Last edited by DRush76, Dec 24, 2012
  22. FARK2005 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 2
    I’m not sure why you think Yoda should have informed the Senate of his intentions considering the Jedi had been declared traitors of the Republic and considering that Palpatine, in his own words, was the Senate. The fact that Bail Organa was ready to pick him up after the fight suggests that Yoda had informed Bail – the only Senator he was sure he could trust – of his intentions.

    We will have to disagree on that. After the fight it is clear to me that Yoda expresses regret over having failed to stop Palpatine – not regret at his attempt to stop him. Nor is there anything Yoda does or says that gives me the impression that his attempt to stop the Sith is because he wants revenge for what Palpatine did to the Jedi, but about doing his duty as a Jedi.
  23. DRush76 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2008
    star 4

    Yoda set out to kill the leader of the government without notifying the political body of his intentions or presenting any evidence that Palpatine was a Sith Lord. Informing Bail Organa would have done squat in his cause, other than help him escape from Imperial forces.

    Yoda made a mistake in going after Palpatine, as far as I'm concerned. And he paid the price. Just as Mace paid the price, when he went after Palpatine. Neither Jedi Master seemed willing to realize that the Jedi had lost. Years of arrogance, blindness and complacency had led them to lose by ROTS. The Jedi were probably on the road to destruction even before the events of TPM.
  24. FARK2005 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 2
    I agree that Mace could have gone about it differently, but Yoda did not really have any other options: he had become an outlaw and Palpatine had taken control of the Senate - a Senate in which he had many supporters. Yoda informing the Senate of his intentions would be the equivalent of Claus von Stauffenberg informing the Nazi government of his intentions to kill Hitler – not a very clever move. But in a sense Yoda did inform the Senate (or at least a part of the Senate that wasn’t corrupt and recognized the threat Palpatine was) by recruiting the aid of Bail Organa.
  25. CoolyFett Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 3, 2003
    star 4
    Obi wan never knew Anakin as a podracer, He first really knew him after the destruction o
    F the droid control ship.
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