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Battle Dishonours / Disgraces

Discussion in 'Military History and Militaria' started by JONESY24546113, Jan 10, 2010.

  1. Charm_City

    Charm_City Clanker

    Weird. I know this was a big deal but all I can find on the Internet is a short piece from the Poverty Bay Herald (NZ) in 1919. IIRC the libel case followed the return of Gordon POWs to UK at the end of the war, when the 'truth' emerged.LINK

    It's 4-6 months before I'll be reunited with my library - surely someone can help my failing mind.


    P.S. Does replying to your own posts make you go blind?
  2. Signalman

    Signalman Clanker

    Re the Essex 'running away':

    I can't remember the exact details, but that would be the Battle of Gallabat (aka Metema) in Ethiopia.:

    An Indian Brigade, including 1st Bn Essex Regt and commanded by one Brigadier Bill Slim, took the fort of Gallabat in December 1940 and then moved on to take the village of Metema. However, Slim's brigade had its collective arse handed to it by the Italians, with the 1st Essex suffering the worst of it.

    Thankfully for the British Army, Bill Slim wasn't sacked (as he probably would be in this day an age). He learned from his mistakes and went on to be arguably the best general the British Army has ever produced.

    However, the echoes of Gallabat were to have repercussions in Burma two years later. Slim was by then commanding the Indian XV Corps, having already led I Burma Corps in the longest fighting retreat in British military history. His superior was one General Irwin, commanding Eastern Army and who was a former Colonel of the Essex Regt. He was very bitter about Slim and the Essex Regt's loss of reputation at Gallabat and consequently had little faith in Slim's abilities. As a consequence, Slim was sidelined in the fist counter-offensive operation against the Japanese and Irwin micro-managed XV Indian Corps to near-destruction in the Arakan.

    He then tried to pin the blame on Slim, who was in fact single-handedly responsible for extricating XV Corps from the diabolical situation that Irwin had placed it in. Slim was sacked, but was later exonerated and elevated to command XIV CArmy, while Irwin was sacked and sent back to the UK on a 'sideways posting'.
  3. Archimedes

    Archimedes Clanker

    Colonel William Eagleston Gordon VC is the chap. From what I can recall, based on a book I can't remember the title of and his obit, he was a brevet colonel and took charge of a mixed column on the retreat from Mons.

    As they withdrew, in darkness, a voice was heard to order the troops in the column to lay down their arms - which was done. Gordon was taken prisoner and held in a camp at Torgau, where the Germans forged a confession from him stating that the Gordons had used illegal ammunition. Gordon was exchanged in 1916.

    A Corporal in the Gordons claimed that it was Col Gordon who'd issued the order, and the Dundee newspaper mentioned in your link printed the accusation. Gordon then sued for Â£5000 because of the damage to his reputation (the paper clearly ran a 'cowardice of VC winner' line), and although he didn't get this, the jury awarded him Â£500.
  4. jonwilly

    jonwilly Clanker

    I have just finished the latest book "Britains Gurkhas" It does cover this but only mentions two British Officers being manhandled.
    A QGO was killed with a booby trapped L2 though but again it skims over by stating possibly set by a former gurkha.
    They do try and protect their reputation understandably!"

    I do not know if we are on the same subject but a Brit officer was 'Fragged' with a L2 in Hong Kong in mid/late 80's.
    I had the detail passed on some years ago from one military and surprisingly a Diplomatic source.
    Seems that some Gurks had been smuggling Gold back to Nepal in Gurk MFO boxes. A valuable consignment was caught and confiscated and the Head of the operation wanted revenge.
    The Brit was just unlucky as to his location next to a main road and the Gurk who did the deed is said now to be working a Bar in Tokyo.

    As for Slim and Irwin it's worth reading up.
    Slim was kept out of First Arakan until the operation had gone to rat sh1t. Irwin then tried to cuff the matter over, sacked Slim and was then in turn fired by by Wavell who knew where the blame lay.
    Irwin after sacking Slim then sent him a signal
    "Your not sacked I am"
    Slim Master of War by Robert Lyman

  5. Charm_City

    Charm_City Clanker

    That's the badger!!! Should have remembered he was a VC. I think I first read about it about in something about the implications of brevet rank - Gordon was junior to CO 1 GORDONS in regimental terms, but his brevet meant that when 1 GORDONS operated with other units he was senior. This added to the confusion of the situation.

    Many thanks.

  6. Signalman

    Signalman Clanker

    Cheers Jon. I was working from memory and couldn't remember who did the reinstating of Slim and sacking or Irwin. I agree - Lyman's book is excellent.
  7. RP578

    RP578 Clanker Book Reviewer MiA (Donor)

    Reference the incidents with the Gurkhas.

    The 'Hawaii Incident' is still a cause celebre with GAESO and other groups in Nepal. The contention is that the men were all unfairly dismissed because of their refusal to co-operate with the RMP. The feeling was (and I guess it remains) that it should have been handled internally. The QGO who was knocked out in that incident hadn't actually been the target of the angry mob, but had tried to calm the situation when the crowd of Gurkhas stormed out of their cookhouse to confront the OC, and was struck in the ensuing melee. A good description of the incident and following events (which really didn't help matters) can be found in Anthony Gould's "Imperial Warriors".

    As for the Belize incident in 2001, a fight broke out in a strip joint between some teenagers and some Gurkhas who were celebrating the end of an Ex. One of the teens was killed in the fight and three Gurkhas were charged with murder. They were subsequently acquitted due to lack of witnesses.

    Gurkas cleared - Telegraph 2003
  8. Jaeger

    Jaeger Clanker

    Didn't 5th Essex have a fairly major balls-up in Normandy in 1944 resulting in the Bn. being disbanded by Monty and all the officers sacked or posted? Sure I've read it somewhere. :?
  9. ugly

    ugly Clanker Moderator

    I thought Slim was sacked by someone else, Leese to my recollecction, minmd you it may have happened more than once but the telegram, its me was attributed to Oliver Leese in Defeat into Victory rather than Irwin!
  10. jonwilly

    jonwilly Clanker

    Slim was Sacked twice during his time in Burma.
    First by Irwin, I would recommended anyone with a serious interest to read up a good account of this matter. Slim hardly mentions it in his Defeat to Victory an indication of his Contempt I will suggest.
    Oliver Leese removed Slim from Command of 14 Army at the end of the advance down Burma. To say the least this upset Slim.
    The system above Lesse then went into Shock Horror and Lesse was sacked and Slim was given his job.
    I have the highest regard for Slim as a military commander. He was not perfect and as anyone who has read Defeat into Victory will know, he admitted his failings openly.
    The next tale on Slim was that at end of WW II he retired Four star and took over running the freshly Nationalised Brit Rail.
    When Monty then came to the end of his term as Chief of the Imperial General Staff, he had an interview with the PM Attle in which he reputedly begged that what ever happened Slim was not to be given job as next CIGS, Monty wanted one of his old boys the Canadian, Creary, to be next CIGS.
    Attle turned him down and and Slim was Called back to the colours and promoted Field Marshal and became Chief of the Imperial General Staff.
    It was said that Churchill was against Slim for he could not see how anyone with such a surname could be a leader of troops.

    I was wrong in what I said on a Brit Officer being killed in the L2 attack in Hong Kong.
    I was told the tale first when I was working in Mid East mid 90's by a guy who had been a junior in HK at the time.
    I was given a full account by a retired ex Gurkha Colonel here in Thailand about six years ago. He was person who first told me about the Tokyo Barman.
    Around the same time a friend in the diplomatic service confirmed the story, he knew about it due to the Gold Smuggling which was a sensitive matter.
    The Brit officer survived and it was his testimony that he had seen a 'Brown' hand sling the L2 into the room that was a main feature of the investigation.
  11. Busterdog

    Busterdog Clanker

    Poor old Gordons one of their regular army Bns went into the bag early in WW1 (as already mentioned earlier in this thread) and both regular Bns in WW2 - 1st Bn in France and 2nd Bn in Singapore.
  12. TheSpecialOne

    TheSpecialOne Clanker

    and the 5th Bn in France at the same time as the 1st Bn, but being regs the army reconstituted the 1st & 2nd Bns using existing TA & new conscripts
  13. baboon6

    baboon6 Clanker

    Monty didn't rate Harry Crerar at all, if that's who you mean. He had retired at the end of the war and already disappeared into obscurity. And I don't see how an officer in the Canadian Army would have been eligible for the job anyway- the Canadian and British Armies were separate legal entities, had been for a long time, though of course cooperation was very close. Monty's actual Canadian protege', Lt Gen Guy Simonds, was next in line to be Canadian CGS (a job he held from 1951 to 1955).

    I was always thought it was Gen Sir John Crocker who Monty wanted as his successor. Crocker, who like Simonds had been a corps commander in 21st Army Group, became Adjutant-General instead.

    It makes more sense to me- Crocker was older (b 1896 vs 1903), he was senior (he had been a Lt Gen in 1942 when Simonds was only a Brig), and Simonds being CIGS would probably have involved him transferring to British service and all the complications that would entail. Besides which he would have known few of his subordinates. Incidentally the most senior Canadian that I am aware of in the British Army at the time was Maj Gen (later Gen Sir) Charles Loewen who had been a divisional commander in Italy. Loewen had joined the British forces rather than the Canadian in 1918 because he was too young to be sent overseas by the Canadians.

  14. seaweed

    seaweed Clanker Book Reviewer

    Here's what my uncle (2RWF but at the time not yet deployed to Burma) had to say about the Irwin affair:

    'After the disaster at Donbaik in Arakan 1, Wavell came down to see how it had happened. Present were Cavendish the Brigadier, his gunner colonel and Irwin. Cavendish was ordered to explain the battle. When he had finished Wavell turned to Irwin and said "This is not what I ordered." Irwin answered that it was what he had ordered, with the result that he was removed from the command of Eastern Army and was not employed at the sharp end again.'
  15. Signalman

    Signalman Clanker


    I don't remember anything like that regarding the Essex Regt, but 1/6th Duke of Wellington's Regiment did break after a very bad time in Normandy - particularly at the Parc de Boislande, where officers allegedly had to draw revolvers to stop men from running.

    The battalion got through a third of its strength and most of its officers within a few days, resulting in the following report from its (replacement) CO, which resulted in him being described by Monty as 'Not a proper chap' and his battaluion disbanded:

    1. I arrived at 6DWR on the evening of 26 June. From am 27 June until am 30 June we have been in contact with the enemy and under moderately heavy mortar and shell fire.

    2. The following facts make it clear that this report makes no reflection on the state of 6 DWR when they left UK:

    a) In 14 days there have been some 23 officers and 350 OR casualties

    b) Only 12 of the original officers remain and they are all junior. The CO and every rank above Cpl (except for 2 Lt's) in Battalion HQ have gone, all company commanders have gone. One company has lost every officer, another has only one left.

    c) Since I took over I have lost two second-in-commands in successive days and a company commander on the third day.

    d) Majority of transports, all documents, records and a large amount of equipment was lost

    3. State of Men

    a) 75% react adversely to enemy shelling and are "jumpy"

    b) 5 cases in 3 days of self inflicted wounds

    c) Each time men are killed or wounded a number of men become casualties through shell shock or hysteria.

    d) In addition to genuine hysteria a large number of men have left their positions after shelling on one pretext or another and gone to the rear until sent back by the M.O. or myself

    e) The new drafts have been affected, and 3 young soldiers became casualties with hysteria after hearing our own guns

    f) the situation has got worse each day as more key personnel have become casualties

    4. Discipline and Leadership

    a) State of Discipline is bad, although the men are a cheerful pleasant type normally

    b) NCOs do not wear stripes and some officers have no badges of rank. This makes the situation impossible when 50% of the Battalion do not know each other.

    c) NCO leadership is weak in most cases and the newly drafted officers are in consequence having to expose themselves unduly to try to get anything done. It is difficult for the new officers (60%) to lead the men under fire as they do not know them.


    a) 6DWR is not fit to take its place in the line.

    b) Even excluding the question of nerves and morale 6DWR will not be fit to go back into the line until it is remobilised, reorganized, and to an extent retrained. It is no longer a battalion but a collection of individuals. There is naturally no espirit-de-corps for those who are frightened (as we all are to one degree or another) to fall back on. I have twice had to stand at the end of a track and draw my revolver on retreating men.
    Recommendation. If it is not possible to withdraw the battalion to the base or UK to re-equip, reorganize and train, then it should be disbanded and split among other units. If it is not possible to do either of the above and it is essential that the battalion should return to the line, I request that I may be relieved of my command and I suggest that a CO with 2 or 3 years experience should relieve me, and that he should bring his adjutant and a signals officer with them.

    Being a Regular officer I realise the seriousness of this request and its effect on my career. On the other hand I have the lives of the new officer personnel (which is excellent) to consider. Three days running a Major has been killed or seriously wounded because I have ordered him to, in effect, stop them running during mortar concentrations. Unless withdrawn from the division I do not think I can get the battalion to fight normally and this waste of life would continue. My honest opinion is if you continue to throw new officer and other rank replacements into 6DWR as casualties occur, you are throwing good money after bad.

    I know my opinion is shared by two other Command officers who know the full circumstances.
  16. Jaeger

    Jaeger Clanker

    I know Monty had to be ruthless but you'd wonder what any officer, however charismatic or experienced, could do to improve such a situation, this Bn. had clearly gone beyond the point of no return and I think the CO's suggestions were perfectly correct in the circumstances. Poor bugger.
  17. blonde_guy

    blonde_guy Clanker

    What happened to the CO for being so honest?
  18. AlienFTM

    AlienFTM Clanker Book Reviewer MiA (Donor)

    In Normandy in 1944 the attrition rate among infantry meant that they even disbanded tank regiments to fill the infantry line. Monty disbanding an infantry regiment in Normandy wouldn't necessarily have to be because of the regiment's Pimmel-auf.
  19. broken_man

    broken_man Clanker

    That shows the sort of moral courage that we promote in all ranks these days, and ended unnecessary attrition - it would be a shame if the CO (who in my eyes was a "good chap") lost his name over this.
  20. björn

    björn Clanker

    Great moral courage, to say the least. Who was the officer concerned?

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