160 thoughts on “Hating The ACLU”

    1. Scorpio, I couldn’t agree with you more. Unfortunately, I know a lot of people who do read “history”, but unfortunately it’s of the David Barton variety.

    2. If we could just get the pew dwellers in the IFB churches to read their Bibles for themselves without relying on the M-O-g to tell them what it says the IFB would shrivel up and die.

      1. Whenever a friend of mine carries on about the ACLU, I always ask him which of his civil rights he’d be willing to give up in order to prevent other people from having it. He never has an answer, no matter how many times we go through the ritual.

  1. Listening to this sermon I think that a better idea would be for Americans to live the ten commandments instead of hanging a plaque to them on a wall in a courthouse. You know, a courthouse where men are indicted for wife beating; women are indicted for prostitution; child molesters get probation; the wealthy get lighter sentences than the poor; deals are made in spite of knowing a person is guilty and has no remorse, etc., etc. The dog and pony show of public religion is pretty nauseating. Maybe the Lord is using the ACLU, not to threaten us with the loss of our freedoms but to rebuke us for the loss of living out the profession of Christ.

    1. Like. A lot. Somewhere recently I read an article on how most pro-lifers are actually passive pro-lifers while at the same time aggressive pro-choicer’s. (My own words. Just summarizing what I took from the article.) That they can say they are against abortions verbally, and in spirit they are, but actually they are active pro-choicer’s because they are unwilling to get involved in adopting or providing for these unwanted babies. Not looking to start a discussion about abortion. Rather I’m pointing out another example of what Bass is saying. For too long the church (universal) has stood by passively condemning abortion while being unwilling to actively involve themselves in the lives of these unwed mothers and unwanted children.

      1. I guess that makes me an aggressive pro-choicer and a passive pro-lifer. I will fight for women’s rights to govern their own bodies and their own choices regarding what happens to their bodies, while at the same time I would not choose to personally have an abortion.

        I wonder why everything in this one topic has to be so black and white … You don’t have to be either/or. (But I do find many of the most hardcore pro-lifers to be hypocrites, nonetheless).

        1. Oh, I think everyone is a hypocrite in some area of life. Me as much as the next person …

      2. I have a cousin who had a baby at 17. At 20, she got pregnant again. She lived alone with a 3 year old in the same city as me, over an hour from any other family and her worthless friends weren’t the kind of people who were there for the rough times. By the time her second baby was due, she was not working, had no car that ran, and no phone. She ended up eight days overdue, had a kidney infection, and Medicaid would not allow her doctor to induce her. So she was sick, alone and had no phone and a three year old child. I would go to her apartment after work, make sure they were fed and okay. One night I had to go back to school for “game duty”–where you make sure the kids don’t act like hellions in the student section. She was exhausted and ill, so I took the three year old with me back to school so she could sleep.

        I taught at a “Christian” school. When people asked whose child it was and why he was with me, I explained. Big mistake. The evening ended with two teachers confronting me in the hallway for “encouraging premarital sex and single motherhood” by helping my cousin.

        Even better: these were the two teachers who organized a group of students to protest a local abortion clinic once a month.

        1. The notion that the worth of human life begins at conception and ends at birth continues to befuddle me.

        2. Truly disgusting reaction to your doing the right thing. I am so sorry. I hope she and the children are doing well.

        3. @Seen enough…the baby (who was born 9 lbs 9 oz four days after that incident) is now 14 years old. And the two boys have a 3 year old sister. My cousin can’t figure out how to not have babies when she shouldn’t apparently. The daughter was born of “I thought I couldn’t get pregnant now that I’m over 30, that’s what they’re always saying on TV”.

          She is, however, in a better place otherwise, having studied first to be a Certified Medical Assistant and later an EMT. She works as a paramedic and she and her children are doing well, now. But there were many difficult years. And I have many more stories of being yelled at by co-workers at that school for helping her, including a time her second son was in the hospital for five days at age two. Those people made me very cynical about the true motives of radically anti-abortion people.

        4. I am glad things have improved! If those who are pro-life would put their money where their mouths are, and financially support the types of pro-life clinics/homes/whatevers that actually minister to the mother during and after pregnancy, I would respect them more. We have just such a place here in my town, and I love it. We try to be as active in that ministry as we can, in my family.

        5. I would like to see more churches and pro-life groups become really active in supporting single mothers beyond the first few months of a baby’s life, though. In the first few months, things were not as hard for her. Family showed up to see the baby and helped; there were gifts of clothes, diapers, supplies. But that all goes away in a few months and that’s when it can be extremely difficult. Emotional support, childcare, hand-me-downs…those are the things these women need. And they need it without a guilt trip. Her experience also tended to be that help came with guilt, sermons and religious requirements. Love them and maybe they’ll see the grace of Jesus at some point. But if they don’t, that doesn’t make them or their children any less in need of compassion and support.

        6. This idea that they have to “punish” the sinner by refusing to help her, and castigating those who help her is not going to draw her back into their lovely fundy net. It will only drive her further away. And it’s cruel to punish the children who may need help because of something the mother (and father) did way back when. The children had nothing to do with it, and they need help. How many of the “precious bus children” they bring in every week come from broken homes and single mothers? What is the difference? 👿

        7. Oh, I am sure they would be HAPPY to send a bus by to pick up her children for Sunday School. Just not to come by and take them for a meal or to a doctor appointment. How would they be able to count THAT on their activity reports?

        8. (trying to reply to Amyrose sub-thread…hope it posts in the right place):

          Here in NC, we have Room at the Inn (several locations), which takes care of unwed moms and their babies. Also numerous crisis pregnancy centers, many run by evangelical groups (which I realize are very different from fundamentalists). Catholic Social Services runs an operation which collects baby clothes and maternity / baby supplies for unwed and disadvantaged moms. And Belmont Abbey College, just outside of Charlotte, has just announced plans to provide free education / dorm facilities / childcare to a limited number of economically disadvantaged unwed moms. So yes, there *are* many pro-lifers out there who *do* out their money where their mouth is. I guess they don’t tend to hang out at the more rigid fundy churches, though. (I m assuming this based on what I have read here. I really don’t know all that much about the various flavors of fundamentalism, although I do have fundy friends…but they do not seem to have drunk the kool-aid to quite the extent described hereabouts.)

        9. Lurking, yes, that is how the one here operates. These women receive help for years afterward, not just for a few months, and that includes jobn training, help finding employment, child care, financial help, etc. Also, yes, your evaluation of hyper fundies is spot on.

        10. I read a story in a Christian magazine by a woman who, as a 16-yr-old Christian girl, went to a Christian Camp, met a 16-yr-old boy she liked, things got out of control, and she became pregnant. Her extremely “Christian” father’s response to the news was to *lierally* throw her out of the house, telling her not to to come back. Fortunately she had an aunt who was willing to take her in and help her look after the baby. Her son is now 17 years old, and doing well at school, and is a Christian and at the time of the article she was about to marry a great Christian man. Her father, in the meantime, as never spoken to her since he threw her out of house, and doesn’t even know his grandson’s name. BTW he was well known for his anti-abortion stance but his reponse to his daughter “sin” was to acr as as if she was dead.

        11. This is why we need more Homes like the Liberty Godparent Home, started by Jerry Falwell in the early 1980s…The Godparent Home helps Pregnant girls and young women from all over the country through their pregnancies, proving a safe place for them. Falwell certainly had his faults, but the leadership he showed by starting the Godparent Home is needed today…

  2. As with every other Fundy diatribe I’ve ever heard about the ACLU, he misses the point. The problem with the ACLU is not that they fight against Fundy standards, but that they fight against a community’s right to govern themselves.

    Also, Hanging the Ten Commandments on the wall of a public building will not bring about the revival that the IFB wants, because that revival has to begin with the true Christians who see them hung at the church every week. If hanging them in the church house hasn’t worked, what messed up logic thinks that hanging them in the courthouse will be any more successful?

    1. “The problem with the ACLU is not that they fight against Fundy standards, but that they fight against a community’s right to govern themselves.”

      A community’s right to govern itself is limited by the Constitution. The ACLU fights against communities that try to violate the Constitution.

    2. I agree. The fundy preoccupation with plaques and statues (aka idols) aside, the ACLU (or any other organization) coming in and demanding thousands of dollars from a town for daring to put a plague they don’t like in their courthouse is ridiculous. It would be just as ridiculous if it weren’t religious in nature. Not sure how accurate the speakers statements were, but if it was really from a town that couldn’t afford it, that just a makes it that much worst.

      But, ultimately, I think the issue of courts granting large sums of money to people or organizations just because they claim that they were “offended” by a statue or sign is very much a civil issue.

  3. “If we get people to study American history, not only will we have a revolution, but we would have revival in the church house.”

    What would that revival look like? The 10 Commandments plaque back in the court house? Required prayers in school and public meetings? Outlaw alcohol?We’ve been there already. It was called the Roaring ’20s. (I have studied history.) Your neighboring state even had a law making it illegal to teach evolution in school! That would be heaven on earth for you, wouldn’t it? Never mind the fact that jazz took over the popular music scene, there was rampant crime and corruption as a result of Prohibition, the movies got so bad your forbears began preaching against theaters in the 20s.

    Meanwhile, Paul was establishing churches right and left in an era when becoming a Christian was a capital crime. Talk about injustice! Nero should have been reading his history! God doesn’t need a perfect political situation for His church to grow. He needs humble servants who will carry out His will and who wait on Him to grant the increase instead of forcing their own results.

    1. “God doesn’t need a perfect political situation for His church to grow.”

      I’m going to borrow this quote sometime. I remember how giddy many IFBers got after the Republican takeover of Congress with the ’94 elections. Or after their great Christian president George Bush took office, or the patriotic fervor following 9-11. All events were expected to usher in a great nation-wide revival that we hadn’t seen in generations.

    2. How many times have you heard fundies talk about the New Testament Church as the best period in Church History. I don’t get any impression that Paul and the other Apostles wanted to do what many Fundies would like to do, set up an Old Testament Theocracy. Maybe my little slow brain is missing something, so if it is, please let me know.

      By the way, I have been reading a Christian book recently that features some great cartoons. One of them featured St. Paul sitting at a desk holding a partchment scroll, and talking to a companion. The caption reads “what a day! I’ve just finished writing to the Corintians about gluttony, idolatry, party spirit, bickering, arrogance and incest – and to think that in years to come they’re going to believe these were the good old days!”

  4. Watching this clip I just realized why they put all the mini-mog’s (not capitalized since they’re not the MOG) on the stage. They’re cue cards for the congregation. Like a flashing “applause” light at a live studio event. When the mini-mog nods his head, the congregation needs to nod its head. Mini-mog says amen, everyone says amen. After all my fundy years how have I not seen this before? 😕

    1. Is this just something the larger churches do? None of the churches I’ve ever been in did this. But from seeing clips from First Baptist, of Schaap mostly, and probably Hyles before him, they do that. And I’ve heard that Bob Gray of Texas does that. I even heard it in a message by him once that they like to keep the deacons and assistant pastors up there on the platform as cheerleaders for the pastor while he preaches. Oh yeah, Jack Trieber does the same thing. So these men can’t go sit with their families, they have to be on the platform cheering for the pastor. What is wrong with these “men of God” that they need their own personal cheering section? Can anyone say ego?? 👿

      1. My church did this. The pastor was a Hyles graduate, and patterned himself after Jack Hyles, so that could explain it, but we had the mini-mog parade sitting behind the pulpit for every single service.

        1. At FBC, those were the “seats of honor” where the “leadership” were invited to sit. If you were scheduled to sit on the stage you were something special. Believe me, not ONE of those guys would wish to be sitting anywhere else but right there.


          Pretty clever. By framing it that way, they don’t have to come out and say “come up on stage and be my personal cheering section and help cue the audience when to applaud.”

    2. When I first saw videos of FBCH and other Hylesite churches, I figured those men must have done something wrong for which they were forced to do public penance– like the “Mourner’s Bench” of old, only better upholstered.

  5. These counties know that it is not legal to post the 10 commandments, so they take the risk when they do it – if caught it is their own fault.

    There would be revival if all the Christians really loved God and their neighbor as themselves.

    I had to laugh at the row of pompous guys behind him, shaking their heads like the plastic dog on the back window of the car. Up and down, up and down. I wa t to get me one of them there red, white and blue ties so I can witness my faith.

    1. Exactly. The posting of Ten Commandments plaques in public buildings is done these days as a deliberate challenge to the separation of church and state. When somebody brings up the First Amendment, it’s very disingenuous to pretend it’s some kind of persecution. It’s a battle they themselves have chosen. I think it’s rather ill-considered, at best, for Christians to be holding up a graven image as the ditch they will die in.

      By the way, the reason many courthouse lawns, public squares, and parks have Ten Commandments monuments is not that those communities are so pious, but that Paramount Studios placed them as a promotion for Cecil B. Demille’s “The Ten Commandments” movie in the 1950s.

      1. Maybe they SHOULD be reading their history! 🙂 OTOH, if they knew that those ungodly moving pictures were responsible, their heads might just explode. 😀

  6. I wonder if the people who preach so hard against the ACLU realize the ACLU also has their backs if their civil rights are infringed upon? The ACLU is going to go to bat for any American, even when that person is utterly repugnant (think the Westboro BC), because we all have certain basic civil rights. You don’t have to agree with someone to realize they have the same civil rights you do. What utterly amazes me is the claptrap some (most? all?) IFBs preach about “this great country,” but then they aren’t at all happy with what this country really is, which is not a great big, fat IFB church but a multicultural hodgepodge of religions, belief systems, and ethnicities.

    Well, pooh I say to them.

    1. You are exactly right. The ACLU serves a very important role. And I have seen many cases where they have the back of a Christian who is legitimately being censored over his basic civil rights. They never, ever, applaud the ACLU when that happens. But if they dare to uphold the civil rights of a non-IFBer well they are damned and going to hell. It is completely one sided. We will focus on this one issue we think is wrong (it isn’t) and ignore any all the good that they might do both for Christians and for liberty and freedom in general. It boggles the mind that they are so willfully blind.

    2. Indeed. I have a friend who practically froths at the mouth every time anyone brings up the ACLU. I always ask him which of his civil rights he’s willing to give up in order to deprive someone else, but he has yet to come up with an answer. It’s part of the huge fundy problem of being unable to grasp that other people can be different, but still be right.

    3. Heavens, P.P., you should see them go to town on public libraries. I have lost count of the number of times I have made the speech wherein I acknowledge to the fundy that yes, he/she IS a taxpayer, but so are the gays, “Hollywood types” (?), young adults who want to read something with a sex scene in it, etc. I have to explain, over and over, that if we take out the books THEY don’t like, what stops someone from taking out the books they DO like? This is AMERICA, I say, not your church! Then I get skinned, usually behind my back, and called a reprobate, or someone who has “fallen away.” Then some well-meaning (?) fundy makes sure I get word on what was said about me.
      Heaven knows I do not like, nor approve of, every book in every public library! SO WHAT??? Who does???
      Fundies tend to think every public institution should be ruled by THEIR preferences. Which is one of the things that makes them so obnoxious. But believe me, those same fundies are here to make use of the library’s many assets, no fear. 👿

        1. Hence my not being a devotee of the ACLU. While I agree with those who have pointed out that they even have MY back, should I need them, pornography is unacceptable in a public place, the same way smoking is, or spitting at me, etc. My experience has been that the few who have been in trouble here for that offence have other issues as well, generally criminal ones. We also do not let patrons have food or drink , and there are restrictions on our local history room. Odd that no one has called theACLU in on those things. 🙄

        2. This correction now appears with that story:

          “Editor’s note: An earlier version of this post said the American Civil Liberties Union had sued the North Central Regional Library district, based in Wenatchee, Wash., for not offering access to online pornography. The ACLU says that its case was not about pornography but was aimed at overly broad Internet filters that blocked access to legitimate research and political activity.”

          “The ACLU suit was brought in 2006 ‘on behalf of a college student who was prevented from researching for a paper on youth tobacco use, an artist who couldn’t look at sites of art galleries and artwork, a political group whose publication “Women and Guns” was blocked, and a man who wanted to update his MySpace page,’ the nonprofit advocacy group said in a statement.”

          You can agree or disagree with the ACLU’s position here, but it’s an absurd caricature of the case to say that “the ACLU is suing a public library because a pervert can’t look up porn there.”

        3. @big Gary, Nice catch. Typically when you dig into the fundy horror stories there is something else going on. Whether it is an instance like this where it appears the ACLU is supporting porn or a case where “religious persecution” is happening. Always, and I do say that knowing exactly the ramifications are, always when you dig into what actually happened the truth is far less scandalous.

    4. Yes, it’s hugely ironic that it is the ACLU and other civil liberties organizations who defend Fundies’ right to free speech and free exercise of their religion whenever they are threatened.

    5. Polecat, I’m thankful the ACLU has been around lately. They have been for citizens’ rights when it comes to police brutality. They have also made a few good moves when it comes to defending our rights just to be American citizen and not be terrorized by the government in their lying, futile “war on terror.” With that being said, the ACLU is still a dangerous organization that is largely against freedom. Don’t be fooled by them just because they are sometimes actually for civil liberties instead of against them.

      1. Fewer than twenty miles from where I sit, and with its own basement Bible college. Right around the corner from IT is the non-IFB Baptist non-fundy church where my son is youth minister, and the difference between the attendances, the looks on the congregants’ faces, EVERYTHING, is AMAZING. This no longer puzzles me; why WOULD a seeking soul be drawn to such sanctimonious butts? 🙄

        1. I heard the “Sanctimonious Butts” are touring with Radiohead this summer! I love their music!

        2. I seriously LOLed. Yes, of course I am at the public SSSSHHHHHH! desk in the library! 😀

        3. I heard the Butthole Surfers (who are from my home town, by the way) have started doing Christian Contemporary songs and are now touring as the Sanctimonious Butts.

          Just a rumor, but(t) you heard it here first!

  7. ever went to church thinking “I need some spiritual food today, give me something” – and then the “sermon” is something like that?? What do you with it when you go home? Or you really need something that day – and you get Vineyard…. (happened to me, boy, I didn’t like that guy even then)
    I don’t live by bread alone, but by….being mad at the ACLU.
    Anyone read that “What Hath God Wrought”, or something like that? That’s what I think of when a fundy mentions “history”.
    Anyway, his hair looks like he drew it on with a marker, so on top of putting up with the message, you have that to look at. He probably is using a
    marker, so he never has a hair out of place.

    1. You’re right! I don’t know how I put up with him on a weekly basis. I never even got along with him while I was at his bible “kawledge”…I guess that’s why I was always trying to prank him back for trying to pick on me. 😈

  8. God bless the ACLU protecting everyone’s rights to be who they are and speak their mind without fear of retribution or political correctness. Even people that then use the freedom to demonize the ACLU.

    1. My point in posting the video was two-fold

      1) The ACLU is a constant Fundamentalist bogeyman. The latest silly lawsuit is always handed out as as sign of the impending apocalypse.

      2) The focus on what we should REALLY be concerned about gets distorted. Does the 10 commandment on or off the wall of a secular building really do anything to further the Gospel? No. But hey, lets waste a whole bunch of time worrying about it anyway.

    2. The ACLU tends to be more liberal than libertarian. I live near Baltimore where the black clerical class interferes in politics on a regular basis, without a peep from the ACLU. They get away with stuff the religious right wishes they could do. Sometimes a group called the Ministerial Alliance, made up mostly of black ministers and a token rabbi, endorse candidates in local elections.
      It will be interesting to watch how the black clerical class gets involved in the 2012, and if anyone except Fox News complains about it.

      On the plus side, at least the ACLU is keeping parts of America from turning into “A Handmaiden’s Tale”

  9. Dear preacher: if you want to talk politics then become a politician, community organizer, or grab a soapbox a get at it.

    If, however, you want to be a Christian preacher, then open your Bible and preach Christ.

    It’s not your hour to vent your filth and get things off your chest. It’s Gods hour. So say what he says then sit down please.

    1. That was my biggest problem with this “message”. Open up the black book you have in your hand and teach what it says. Don’t stand and pontificate your opinions. I hate, and yes I actually hate, politics being mentioned in a church service. The church is about Christ and His kingdom not any earthly kingdom of man. This gospel they preach is a different gospel. Man is not changed through moral-ism or by hanging the Ten Commandments on the wall. Man is changed by Christ. Therefore any message that deviates from having the focus on Christ is another gospel and a false one.

  10. Oh dear. I just got a few seconds in.

    “We’d have a revolution. You say, ‘What’s a revolution?'”

    Does he think his congregation is that dumb???? 😯 I mean, it would have been fine if he had said “You ask what I mean.” But assuming that the people don’t know what a revolution is?? 😥

  11. Preachers tend to be an opionated bunch, I get that. I know that they will have strong opionions on politics and that is fine. Even if I disagree with their conclusions it does not bother me if it comes out in private conversation. However, I do not go to church to hear about politics. I know where the TV channels, radios stations or internet sites are if I want to hear someone talk about that! I go to church to hear the preacher expound the Word not hear a wannabe pundit crack wise about the political situation.

    BTW (rant coming. you may avert your eyes)
    Do these clowns not know that Christianity existed before the foundation of America or the Republican party? That Christianity is not dependent on either of them? That God does not need them? He might choose to use America but His work will carry on if America goes under?

    When fundies say “God bless America” they actually seem to mean the reverse. That God’s happiness and wellbeing depends on us.

    (rant over. climbs down off of soapbox with a confused look on his face and shuffles off muttering to himself)

  12. Jeff FUgate….yeah that video is what I’d expect to hear from him. One of the churches I used to attend would have him over to say things the MOG wouldn’t even say so that his reign of control wouldn’t have any “leaks” in it.

    Don’t you love it when a MOG brings in another MOG to scratch his back and teach his sheeple to worship him? 👿

  13. “I wouldn’t give the ACLU a red cent.” (despite the fact that it’s a court ordered fine he’s discussing.)

    😕 I guess that passage about rendering to Caesar what is Caesar’s isn’t in his Bible. And don’t these morons know the ACLU actually helps protect their right to stand on street corners and spew their ignorant opinions propped up with random Bible verses?

    Ugh. 😡

  14. Propaganda:
    – You must have an antagonist you can villianize.
    – You must make them out to be evil and give evidence of it.
    – You must create fear and doubt in the minds of your audience.
    – You must point out that “They” are not from around here, “They” are not part of our local community and “They” are rabble rousers. (pot meet kettle)

    This sounded eerily like a Klan Meeting. All you have to do is substitute Jew, or Blacks for ACLU and voila’ grab a sheet and let’s go light one up for our cause.

    This is one of the reasons the IFB is a cult. Propaganda is passed off as preaching. This is presented as good preaching… and the Bible is merely a bib black-leather, gold-trimmed prop to be waved around to make it look like it iw where the inspiration for the message is coming from. Elmer Gantry eat your heart out!

      1. Oh. My. Gosh, Don! This is a very upsetting read! This is EXACTLY what Hyles did, to draw us in! Gross, gross, gross! Gaggin here. ACK ACK ACK!!! I swear there needs to be a vomit icon on here… 👿 😯

        1. Oh, before I forget, we have a new best friend. Voluntary Outcast. Get to know each other while I am out. I will be back later.

        2. Calmly, Sims, Calmly… I have no recollection of your telling me. Had you tried to tell me, I, in my whitewashed Pharisaical state, would have branded you as a rebel and a fallen woman, which is how I DID think of the girls who DID try to tell me. Sadly, I even thought of them that way years later, when I was their dorm supervisor. I would give a lot to be able to meet with some of them again, now. 😕

        3. Ok, I might not have told you. But I did tell a lot of people… and one teacher. And I did get campused for that. {sigh} And then I repented and didn’t ever mention it again.

  15. I don’t agree with everything that the ACLU supports but I am glad that they exist as a counterweight to IFB and similar groups that would like to erase the separation of church and state. Democracy works!!!

  16. It was a nice touch that he topped off that “sermon” with “If Christians would read the Bible” since he couldn’t even be bothered with using it for his message.
    That being said, if the court made a decision concerning the Ten Commandments and there was a judgement against the town and they were raising money to pay it off (to avoid more trouble with the law later on) then I commend that town for their good judgement. How many famous MOg’s are whiling away their time in jail (or at least spent time there) because of their principled stands to not give one dime to one thing or another. Ken Hamm comes to mind. I know there are plenty of others. {sigh}

  17. This sort of thing really makes me sick. He doesn’t realize how essential the ACLU is, and he doesn’t realize that the ACLU is on his side, and has even taken up cases in his favor. But sadly he really doesn’t understand US history and specifically he *does not* understand liberty. Liberty is not about getting your way. Liberty is not about upholding your one single view point. No that is not liberty, in fact, that is tyranny. Liberty means respecting the view point of others. Liberty is about celebrating the diversity we have in this country. You cannot have liberty and talk the way this guy is talking.

    As I said there are many cases where the ACLU has taken up causes that he’d be absolutely for. There are cases where they have protected the right for individuals to express their religion. But when it comes to state mandated religion they make their position clear, and this is based *clearly* on history that he is so sure we don’t understand. I challenge him to do one thing. Stop reading history with an agenda, and get your history from someone other than Barton, and learn the true meaning of liberty. When that happens you’ll start to love people more. You’ll start to realize that diversity and “being different” are good. When you understand what this country was truly founded upon and how liberty actually works you won’t care so much about liberal vs. conservative you’ll realize that it is ok to think differently. You’ll realize that these aren’t attacks on Christian’s as much as upholding liberty and freedom in this country.

    The only person who is deceived is the guy talking in this video. But boy does he know how to get a crowd going.

    1. Another group that people love to hate is planned parenthood. I don’t get why people hate planned parenthood. They provide essential services for women in need of help. We aren’t talking about good services, we are talking about essential services. Yeah I’ll admit it I’m a card carrying member of planned parenthood, judge me now. Do I support abortion? No, but I support what they are doing at Planned parenthood, and well, lets face it abortion is a legal option. For all the people who hate on planned parenthood I don’t see them jumping up with a better solution. I know there are organizations out there, and I applaud them, but planned parenthood isn’t the devil.

  18. One of the problems seldom mentioned in these Ten Commandments debates, but one of which people who know the Bible are aware, is: Which ten Commandments are you going to put on that tablets? There are, by most counts, hundreds of commandments in the Hebrew Bible. Ten Commandments are not ennumerated as such anywhere in the Bible. Different readers divide scriptures in different ways to make ten commandments. Those ten (however you divide them) are also given somewhat differently in Exodus and in Deuteronomy. Different churches and different Jewish traditions teach different sets of Ten Commandments.

    All that doesn’t even touch all the issues brought up by different translations.

    None of the above matters to the average American, because the average American is completely unaware of the above. I’m guessing that a large percentage of Americans would say they approve of public display of the Ten Commandments, but I’m certain that most of those who say they approve could not name five of those Commandments without a cheat sheet.

      1. My mom could tell you the other five commandments. One in particular really griped me. Supper will be on the table at 5:35 p.m. five minutes after Dad walks in from work. It doesn’t matter that you’re engrossed in a tv (yes we had a tv) program. It doesn’t matter that every children’s program runs from five to six. It doesn’t matter that every children’s program has two parters that you’ll never ever see the second half of or twelve part serials and you lose continuity by missing every second episode including “and now the Exciting Conclusion of…”!

        What other family commandments can you come up with for the other five? Bed time? Don’t ever cross Main Street without a grown up? Let’s see your list.

        1. How about having to be in bed at your bedtime on the dot? My dad would count how many minutes late we were getting into bed and make us go to bed that many minutes earlier the next night, so you missed the end of your tv show. My mom wanted certain things done immediately and would interrupt a tv show to make us do them when they could’ve waited for the commercial (stupid things like hanging your shoes on the shoe rack and hanging up your coat.) Also because I was unfortunate enough to be born female, I had to miss tv shows my brothers got to watch because dishes can only be washed by female hands dontcha know? 🙄

  19. One of the ironies of the court house ten commandments is that many were “donated” by the crass Hollywood establishment that is so reviled by the fundies in order to promote the 1923 film “The Ten Commandments”.

  20. So many times, as we have seen before on this site, many a MOG becomes filled with his own self-importance, as he expounds upon the “sins” of society. So full of himself is he, that his opinions are both delivered and seen by his flock as the very words of the Almighy!

  21. Just once I wish this site would at least have enough honesty to be consistent and not hypocritical. All the praise for the ACLU shows that so much of this site is anti-intellectual and uneducated. It’s fine to say that you are pro ACLU. They do take a stand once in a great while that actually is correct and right on track. But those times are few and far between. For the most part, people who support the ACLU are uneducated, working class, and not really aware of what they are supporting. The few educated people who are favor of the ACLU are brainwashed and unduly guilty for having a job.

    It’s fine to be pro-ACLU. It’s still a free country in many ways and you have that right. Please just spare us the hypocrisy and your falderal about “uneducated Christian college kids.” To actually be in overall support of the ACLU indicates a person is much more ignorant and uneducated than the average Christian college student. We don’t mind your ignorance. It’s your hypocrisy that makes most of your points on so many topics meaningless. It’s like a crack addict pointing out how bad it is to smoke marijuana occasionally.

    1. Wow. I guess I need to pay closer attention. I thought the whole point of this post was to point out that the guy was using his PULPIT to share his personal opinions about the ACLU. (Rather than use pulpit time to actually teach the Bible) I kindof don’t know where you are coming from on the rest of it since I noticed only a couple people here in favor of the ACLU (as is their right, educated or otherwise) I think you were being rather insulting to us poor uneducated folks since the only college degree I got was from a fundy college I guess it must be a deserved insult.

    2. You don’t have to agree with the ACLU, but the claim that most of its supporters are “uneducated” and “working class” is demonstrably false. It’s also irrelevant: Such ad-hominem attacks say nothing about whether or not the ACLU’s positions are right or wrong.

      It’s indisputable, though, that the average ACLU member has a level of formal education well above that of America’s nationwide average educational level. Not that that proves that ACLU supporters are right, but it blows to pieces any argument that only uneducated (therefore presumably ignorant) people support the ACLU.

      1. The average ACLU MEMBER is well educated. They are also just a very tiny slice of the American populace. Most of them probably have a JD degree on top of another degree. Elitist educated people who want to control your lives and decide what is right and wrong for you and not let you even think differently than them are dangerous. The average SUPPORTER of the ACLU, not a member, is an intellectually lazy, ignorant, brainwashed moron who gets their political views and morals from the likes of “Jack Ass” and MTV in general.

        Either way the people on this site are in a bad state. You complain about how fundies are so bad, yet you want to have us all under control of the thought police who are much stricter than the fundamentalists. That is both hypocritical and illogical. You render yourselves impotent in your arguments when you hold these views. If you’re not a hypocrite, then you’re just an easily swayed, simple-minded redneck who doesn’t think and just gets feed all of their life views from MTV and pro wrestling.

    3. For the most part? Uneducated? Ignorant? Brainwashed? Working class – what is the connection – or what is wrong being “working class?” Are you using this term in a positive way? The
      “working class” is typically the ones who serve you, clean your commodes in public places, pick up your trash and take care of you when you are in the hospital.

      What is your occupation?

      Is this your well thought out opinion? What is the source of your information? What is about freedom you dislike? Or others?

      Do tell.

      1. At least we have one or two posters on here who use their brains. I didn’t see that poster making any disparaging remarks. Rather, he was pointing out a rather obvious, simple fact: the uneducated are by and large the ones who support things such as the ACLU. That’s not nice to say and neither is it mean to say. It’s just a fact. There will always be educated elite who want to control everyone else and stifle freedom. That’s the educated folk that Big Gary refers to. I don’t think any of us have figured out Big Gary yet. We don’t know if he’s really this ignorant and actually believes the diatribe, or he could be on a mission to infiltrate us with his constant lies in order to sway the conversation. Big Gary was doing a bit of damage control when he suddenly got all high and mighty about porn and tried to divert the issue. Big Gary, much of porn is homosexual porn. How can you dare be against hard core pornography when much of the industry is devoted to homosexual porn? Aren’t you ashamed to be anti-gay? If you are against porn, then you are a rabid homophobe.

        Contemporary Americans do not think and are are terribly ignorant. That’s why the simpler, trusting minds in the country are in favor of the ACLU.

        There are a few cases where the ACLU has been on the side of freedom and actually supportive of a fair, just cause. For that, we should all be thankful. But as a general rule, the ACLU is anti-freedom and for the suppression of ideas.

        That so many people here are in favor of the ACLU shows that many of you really need to grow up and quit obsessing about fundamentalists. Your hatred of all things fundamentalist has you so jaded, so thrown of track, that you fail to think correctly and automatically are in favor of anything the IFB doesn’t support, even if it destroys your own freedoms. That’s a sign that you really need to get over it, grow up, and get on with your lives.

        1. I have no idea what you refer to here, Mark E. I don’t recall ever saying here that I was either for or against pornography.

          Since nobody (so far) has asked my opinion about it, I won’t bore anybody on that subject now, either.

        2. ding ding ding! Winner winner chicken dinner! I posted an earlier rebuttal before I saw your post Mark. I agree. I was raised in-and damaged by- a hardcore Fundie church. A church SO legalistic that it wouldn’t even join the IBF! For years after I left I did what many here are doing…threw the baby out with the bathwater. While a vast majority of their rants make me cringe, they do occasionally find the odd gem and make the rare good point. You can’t take the position that if a Fundie says it, you HAVE to be against it because after all…a Fundie said it. truth is truth, regardless of the box it came in. Most of the time these guys are so far afield as to be laughable but their fallacy isn’t an excuse to live in one of your own.

  22. Ah yes, the ACLU. The attention whores who specialize in putting their noses in where no one asked them to and tying up the courts with stupid lawsuits. The people who make PETA look sane. Maybe once they’ve solved the Ten Commandment plaque problem, they can move on to lesser issues like equality in pay for everyone regardless of race and gender or ending discrimination in education. But then those aren’t glamorous, news-headline-grabbing topics.

  23. Two kingdoms. Separation of church and state. What’s even sadder is the people sitting in the pews. Fat chance they learned more about Jesus that day. I really hope this is just an extreme case and not the norm.

  24. Yeah, the rotten ACLU. Standing up for people who have been thrown into the prisons with crappy or no legal help. Sticking up for kids who are exercising their right to freedom of speech. Advocates for people who have seen the reality of the police state in their own lives with warrantless searches, “safety checks” and “id checks.” Jerks!

    1. I don’t see the ACLU filing law suits to stop the TSA from fondling our kids in the airport.

      In fact, I think Obama started this to get even the Americans for the 2010 elections.

      I refuse to fly because of this!

  25. I’ve heard someone call this “golden age preaching”, and I think it fits. “If only such-and-such would happen, everything would be great! If only we could get rid of such-and-such group, everything will be perfect again!”

    Don’t talk about how others need to study history when you yourself take an extremely selective view of history, fundy preachers! There was no “golden age” of Christianity. Trying to force Christians today to just conform to the culture of some past era is not going to bring revival.

    1. I can’t view it. It says “this video is private.” I’ve also seen several videos on the site that have been removed. Is this just my own technical ineptitude working against me here? 😕

  26. Okay I have to say this…I love this site. But be VERY careful that the pendulum doesn’t swing too far the other way as a reaction to these Fundie nitwits. Case in point…a few of you have tried assigning something virtuous to the ACLU. I would have to say that examining their entire body of work, they have been demonstrably against the expression of Christianity in this country. This guy assigned to much jingoism to his rant but a goodly portion of his content was accurate.

    1. As a card carrying member, I can assure you ACLU is not at all against any religious expression by individuals or private parties. They are against and will continue to oppose the endorsement of religion by the state. You might also be attributing some of the People for the American Way actions to the ACLU which is far more often the complainant in separation of church & state case. ACLU gladly defends the freedom of religious people to express their religion now matter how poorly informed it is, ala Fred Phelps.

      1. A: There is NO “separation of church and state” in our Constitution
        B: Valedictorian speeches that mention Jesus are NOT endorsements of religions by the state. It’s nice that you carry their card. It doesn’t mean you’re right. The ACLU has taken action against expressions of faith in ways that defy logic.

        1. Fred Phelps is a Democrat so he’s one of yours.

          Public schools are owned by the taxpayers NOT the government and if students want to mention Jesus in a prayer, that’s within their 1st amendment rights.

    2. Well said Craig!

      I have been around SFL for about 3 yrs, and you put your finger dead on the pulse of the big problem here, because someone may be a fundy, it seems an attempt is made to marginalize everything they say, even though they may have some great points.

      RobM – You just answered alot of my questions about you.

      1. Wow! Intrinsic evidence being submitted into a debate. That works all the time and is completely subjective…said no one ever.
        Finding the ACLU’s record on the ACLU site is laughable.

        1. Facts from the ACLU site that defend the ACLU?? You do realize that if you go to a Planned Parenthood clinic or their website they tell you it’s not a baby.

        2. In a court of law, the defendant is given the opportunity to plead not guilty, and if they choose to do so, they have the opportunity to argue their case in front of a jury. As part of this, they are able to give their side of the story under cross-examination. This is not immediately discounted simply because it is the defendant (who obviously has a desire to avoid legal penalties) who is saying it. It has a right to be heard in a court and taken seriously.

          The ACLU have a right to defend themselves. And honestly, if you are going to seriously discuss a point about them, you should consider what they have to say, and see how well it stacks up against what others have said.

        1. I would find that funny except for that fact that Progressivism or Marxism has destroyed the moral fabric of this country.

          The IFB have it right there. Government IS replacing God.

  27. Of COURSE now that I’ve said that, the video plays. My computer’s mission in life is to make me look stupid. It’ll learn, eventually, that I’m capable of that all on my own. 😳 😀

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