Of Klitards and CLAYtons. This is the most retarded boxing blog ever and I won't bother to read it!

FOR SEVERAL years now I have been discussing with Ali fans.

And for several years now I have been watching others discussing with Ali fans.

Let me assure you: There are NO OTHER BOXING FANS who start to insult and ridicule your opinion as much as Ali fans.

Sure, if you say Mike Tyson is overrated" then a Tyson fan may vividly disagree with you. The same applies to ·Lennox Lewis, ·Larry Holmes, ·Rocky Marciano and any other boxer.

But, boy! If you mention "Muhammad Ali is overrated" then you better prepare for some heavy storm.

Muhammad Ali has the
most unfriendly, insulting, unwilling-to-argue
fans of all time

If you start a discussion that deviates from the "Ali is the greatest"-theme then here is what to expect:



Typical behavior (of Ali fans) (1)

AliFans usually start "answering you" by insults. This is a typical behavior thus don't be astonished if exactly this happens to you:

  • "You should be slapped and kicked off for talkin about ali like this!!!"


  • "why dont u do everyone a favor & crawl back to the rat hole u came from, i bet your friends there r missing u already. they probably cant wait to hear your delusional views on the past heavyweight champions."

  • "You should blast your head off for being so stupid, but you are too retarded to figure out how to pull the trigger"

  • "p*ss off"

  • "It's not that you don't know much about boxing, you don't know sh*t about boxing"

  • "freakin stupid ass"

  • "you have a brain the size of a pinhead"

  • "Write down your entire boxing knowledge on a back of a postage stamp"


  • "I've seen LOADS of retarded people, but YOU are so retarded you embarrass even "special" people"

  • "f*cki'n waste of time"

  • "your full of sh*t now kiss my ass…."

  • "I think you are probably 14 or 15 years old, living in the uk or some shit. And thats why you are on Wlad's and Vitali's nuts"

  • "remove Wlad's d*ck from your mouth so your brain could function"

  • "please f*ck off and find a diferent sport to follow"

  • "I wanna slap you"

  • "you dumb f*ck"

  • "Utter garbage"

  • "i hope you they will ban you from this forum"

  • "We definitely need a policy of eugenics and the government should begin a forced sterilisation program sooner rather than later"

  • "You're just another blind Klitard with their c*m in your eyes"

  • "You sad c*nt comparing Wlad to Ali. Wlad aint good enought to carry Ali kit bag"

Any insults missing? Simply join a boxing forum and read a few Ali threads. If you wouldn't know that it's about boxing you might confuse it with extremist hate speech.



Typical behavior (of Ali fans) (2)
Muhammad is "The Greates-tes-test" as "every expert can tell you"

You do not need to wait long for an AliFans claiming that "Prime Ali" has one or more of the following superpowers:

  • Ali is the boxer with the best reflexes
  • Ali is the boxer with the best footwork
  • Ali is the boxer with the best chin (= impossible to KO)
  • Ali is the boxer with the fastest hands
  • Ali is the best heavyweight boxer of all time
  • Ali is the best boxer of all time
  • Ali is the best sportsman of all time
  • Ali is the most exciting boxer of all time
  • Ali is the bravest boxer of all time
  • Ali is the smartest boxer of all time ("ring IQ")
  • Ali is the greatest man who ever happened to box
  • God was on Ali's side (yes, original quote!)
  • … and the list goes on

I have encountered all of the claims above and the ones who make these claims MEAN IT. You have to understand that in AliFans' minds Ali is NOT a boxer but some mythical god who descended from Olymp to teach us mortals the art of perfect boxing. He was halted for 3 years only to return in greater glory. Sometimes you get the feeling that you are discussing with followers of the "Ali sect" and the slightest critique is blasphemy.

Here is another experience someone else had with AliFans:

"Somebody once told me that Ali is the only reason the Vietnam War ended. Another person said he is the Greatest Man ever to live. That one gave me a real laugh."

You just need to search for "Muhammad Ali" in a search engine and within 10 seconds you will find "experts" and "fans" claiming that "Ali was the XXXest of all time" and "the YYYest of all time".

All of the above statements are extremely far-fetched or utter nonsense of course ("Clay delusion"). For example when you watch Ali's fights then it turns out that statement "Ali is the boxer with the best reflexes" could not be further from the truth. Ali had some of the worst reflexes you will ever see: He gets hit from pillar to post in nearly every fight as I wrote at Would Ali's fighting style be merely disgusting today or also ineffective? and actually THAT WAS HIS WHOLE STRATEGY as even his daughter confirms:

Laila Ali (Ali's daughter and also a boxer):
"His strategy was for people to beat on him to tire his opponents out."

Ali during the training for the Larry Holmes fight:
"Ali, Why you keep getting hit?"
Ali: "I want to get accustomed to the blows"

Sometimes the crowd even booed, as was the case in Muhammad Ali vs Alfredo Evangelista. I guess they booed in awe of Ali's superb reflexes and exciting performance.


Here are some responses if you happen to doubt any of the above mentioned superpowers:

  • "Ali's speed is not at all impressive"
    Answer: "Come on, that's just hating now"

  • "Ali is overrated"
    Answer: "Muhammad cannot possibly be overrated. His fights dispel all the myths."

  • "Ali gets more credit than he deserves"
    Answer: "No, he actually superseded his hype. He accomplished what was deemed impossible by the people"

  • "Ali is Top 6"
    Answer: "Top 6? That's really really harsh"

  • "I watched the fight but I didn't see anything impressive about Ali's speed."
    Answer: "If you can't see it then it's proof positive that you are an idiot and fit only for ridicule"

  • "Ali had bad reflexes"
    Answer: "You are a racist to discredit Ali like that"



Typical behavior (of Ali fans) (3)
Refusal to exchange arguments

Quite often AliFans have a larger-than-life attitude and refuse to engage in talks with mere mortals. They won't even bother to argue, they merely ridicule opinions as "unworthy to answer". Or they consider you a child who can impossibly compete with their boxing knowledge and experience in life. Besides insults this is the most frequent behavior.

  • "I think Valuev might have a chance against Ali because Valuev is so tall"
    Answer: "I am not discussing with fools"
    Nikolay Valuev (7'0") is one of the tallest boxers ever)

  • "Ibragimov would beat Liston"
    Answer: "Stopped reading there and I'm surprised I even bothered reading this far"
    Sultan Ibragimov = one of ·Wladimir Klitschko's opponents, ·Sonny Liston = one of Ali's opponents)

  • "Wlad punches harder than ·George Foreman"
    Answer: "Another retarded troll has made an absurd comment"
    (Foreman: 63% KO'Ratio against non-bummy[?] 200+ lbs opponents, Wladimir Klitschko 80%)

  • "The golden age of boxing wasn't that golden"
    Answer: "You obviously never watched boxing. How can you call yourself a boxing fan?"
    (The so called Golden Age of Boxing was during the 1960s and 1970s)

  • "Ali never faced a hard-hitting southpaw like Corrie Sanders"
    Corrie Sanders = a lefthanded (southpaw) opponent Wladimir Klitschko has lost to)
  • "Frazier was half-blind when Ali fought him"
    Answer: "You know nothing about boxers! I could show what lack of boxing knowledge you have, but I would just be wasting my time with a moron. I won't respond to your nonsense"
    Joe Frazier was blind on his left eye his entire professional career)

  • "George Foreman was knocked down by featherfist Jimmy Young"
    Answer: "You have the mental capacity of a retard. You won't ever understand the science of punch resistance."
    George Foreman = famous opponent of Ali, ·Jimmy Young = one of the weakest-punching heavyweights of all time)
  • "Nobody is at the top in so many statistics as Wladimir Klitschko . Enjoy him while he lasts."
    Answer: "You're either a troll or don't know shiiit about boxing and boxing history. Because of that, its not worth commenting beyond that."

  • "Ali has a low KO'ratio while Wladimir Klitschko is one of the heaviest punchers of all time"
    Answer: "You started to sound even more funny when you tried to compare the KO'ratio… I swear, what can you say. I've been crying laughing!"
    (Ali: 30% KO'Ratio against non-bummy 200+ lbs opponents, Wladimir Klitschko 80%)

  • "Vitali Klitschko would be Ali's tallest opponent"
    Answer: "Ali don't care about weight and size"
    (The tallest opponent Ali ever managed to KO within 12 rounds was 6'3.5", the heaviest was 223 lbs, in other words: both opponents were considerably smaller than nowadays heavies)

  • "Joe Frazier (5'11") would be a heavyweight dwarf nowadays"
    Answer: "I know 10x more about the sport of boxing then you do in your dreams. Your good for a laugh, LOL"

  • "US boxers are not worse than before, but the competition is stronger since boxing has gone global"
    Answer: "Why in the hell would I bother trying to have an intelligent adult conversation with someone who's balls haven't dropped yet and clearly knows f*ck all about boxing?"

  • "Ali's corner used illegal maneuvers during the break after Ali got severely knocked down by Henry Cooper (185lbs)"
    Answer: "The special-ed class it at the end of the hall on the left: Hurry, you're running late!"

  • "Ali's heaviest KO'Win (within 12 rounds) is Alvin Lewis (223lbs). That's 10lbs below Klitschko's AVERAGE KO'wins"
    Answer: "Garbage"

  • "Ali is bottom-5 most featherfisted of all heavyweight world champs"
    Answer: "Astonishing and more amazing every day are the items which these deluded boxing illiterates find. By skewing records and twisting statistics, they produce the most amazing nonsense."

  • "Muhammad Ali vs Cleveland Williams was a disgrace for boxing, since Williams was a cripple (limping, 10 feet of intestines removes, kidney damage, atrophied left leg)"
    Answer:  "It was perhaps the greatest display of heavyweight boxing ever. Hand and foot speed. How are you not banned here?"


The above examples are not RARE or EXTREME. They are _TYPICAL_ responses of AliFans and deluded AliFans (CLAYtons).

Or as somebody else noticed:

"The Ali glee brigade is the lowest intellectual grouping in boxing. They're convinced he's the Greatest, yet they can never offer convincing reasons why. They just know he is."


OK, let's move on: After insulting and refusing to counter-argue, AliFans usually start to list their favorite fantasies:



Typical behavior (of Ali fans) (4)
Supremacy dream worlds

AliFans LOVE to dwell in fantasies about the superhuman superiority of Ali (and of any of the past-time boxers)

  • "A punch from ·Earnie Shavers [an opponent of Ali] and Klitschko's head would fly into the cheap seats. All you would hear is Wladimir's shattered glass chin"
  • "Ali vs Lennox Lewis or Vitali Klitschko or Wladimir Klitschko would be a lopsided massacre of epic proportions"
  • "Ali would walk all over Wladimir Klitschko like he's a piece of trash"
  • "Ali would murder these turtles" (turtles = supposedly slow Vitali Klitschko and Wladimir Klitschko)
  • "Joe Frazier [an opponent of Ali] would go through Klitschko like a hot knife through butter"
  • "Ali KOs Klitschko within 1 round"
  • "Ali's weakest opponent would KO the Klitschko sisters"
  • "Yes, I can say with absolutely certainty that Ali would have run rings around Vitali. Foreman, Louis, Frazier would have left Wladimir in the ring while they were in the limo on their way back home."
  • (all original quotes)

I think that it's a natural symptom of followers of a megalomaniac. Ali was dwelling in such fantasies, thus his faithful believers do, too.



Typical behavior (of Ali fans) (5)
Klitschko hating (or hate against modern boxers in general)
– or –
The Proton-Electron-Complex

  • "If Panettiere Hayden [girl-friend of Wladimir Klitschko] had the choice between Muhammad Ali or Wlad Bitchko you know very well whom she would choose"
  • "Degrees from Soviet universities [the Klitschkos have PhDs] are about the equivalent of a passing the 4th grade in the US. Those degrees are only good for wiping your *ss with."
  • "Wlad's fans are utter morons! Does Wlad train punching on his fans instead on the boxing bag?"
  • "Wlad looks like a spastic"
  • "You are a deluded freak…. The majority of the Eastern-European heavies are JOKES. America is the best country in the world!"
  • "I would rather watch Muhammad Ali trashtalk from his wheelchair than watch another Klitschko fight"
  • "I dont even know why the f*kk we here discussing Klitschkos"
  • "Ali KO'ing George Foreman equals the whole career of Wladimir Klitschko"
  • "Wlad will be lucky if he makes it into the Boxing Top 100"
  • "If Klitschko is better than Ali then Mae West's rotting corpse is MUCH better basketball players than Magic Johnson"
  • "You are trying to make lemonade out of a sh*t sandwich…"
  • "None of the present day Heavies have anything close to Ali's abilities. Ali actually had boxing ability and its silly to think any of todays heavies even compare…"
  • "Wlad Klitschko is a garbage heavyweight"
  • "What kind of Soviet happy fool are you? My God, Ali was the Greatest! And always will be! Klitschko? That great white hope would not have lasted a round against Ali."
  • "you are just biased against the country that has produced the best fighters in the univserse"

Again, these reactions are NOT EXCEPTIONS. They are _STANDARD_ reactions.
AliFans are some of the most fanatic and vile posters you will ever meet on the Internet.

Usually if you mention something negative about Ali and then get insulted it turns out that nearly ALL of the insulters are not only "Protectors of the Holy GrALI" but turn out pretty fast to be Klitschko-haters.
This combination ("blind love for Ali" + "blind hate for the Klitschkos") is extremely typical. It's like "a proton-electron"-pair: Where there's one the other isn't far. Nearly all pro-Klitschko discussions trigger vile responses by AliFans.

AliFans also love to point out why Wladimir Klitschko will never be able to get past the gate to "Champions' heaven" as I wrote at Why the Klitschkos will never be ATGs (All Time Greats).


Now we come to the next stage (the most important stage):


Typical behavior (of Klitschko haters) (6)
"Corrie Sanders anyone?"

This stage consists of reminding everyone of the RoCoLa losses that Wladimir Klitschko has suffered (against ·ROss Puritty, ·COrrie Sanders, ·LAmon Brewster).

AliFans usually say a short sentence like "Ross Puritty anyone?" or link to some YouTube clip where Klitschko is being TKO'ed. Sometimes they use longer sentences like "Corrie Sanders knocks Wladimir Klitschko out in 10 of 10 times".

After years I think I have now found out what's happening in the mind of someone who mentions RoCoLa:

AliFans think they win the argument
by bringing up RoCoLa

The sequence is this:

  1. You claim something positive about modern heavyweights (e.g. "Klitschkos aren't that bad").
  2. Then AliFans post a picture (or YouTube movie) of Wladimir Klitschko getting knocked down (usually by Corrie Sanders).
    • that they owned you and you are now the laughingstock of the world wide web
    • that they have disproved your statements/arguments
    • that whatever you say now is A PATHETIC EXCUSE
    • that whatever you don't say now is DUCKING their "proof"
    • that they have sufficiently proven that Wladimir Klitschko has a weak chin thus all his opponents (aside from RoCoLa) are obviously incompetent bums since they fail to expose his chin again
    • that since ·Ross Puritty is a bum (31-20) past-era non-bummy boxers boxers (·George Foreman, ·Earnie Shavers, ·Muhammad Ali, ·Mike Tyson, …) would have an easy game against Wladimir
    • that they have proven the terrible state of the current heavyweight era (and of the Klitschkos in particular)

It's of course utter nonsense, ESPECIALLY since ·Lennox Lewis, ·Mike Tyson and even ·Muhammad Ali also experienced knock downs and knock outs AND since Wladimir's Klitschko's knockouts (only 3 in nearly 60 fights) are far from being a proof for a weak chin.

It's like someone starting a thread "Lennox Lewis era was the greatest" and then someone posts a picture of Lennox Lewis getting knocked out (by ·Hasim Rahman) as a proof for Lennox' bum'ness and for Lennox' era.

Moreover it's ignorance because haters who bring up RoCoLa ignore the fact that boxers can improve and that boxers can LEARN from their losses.

You can find this sequence (positive statement about Klitschko –> RoCoLa) so often that I wonder why nobody ever does the same to Ali… "Cooper anyone?"

For more information on the 3 RoCoLa losses read Wladimir Klitschko's glass chin -OR- Hahaha, Corrie Sanders was a golfer



Typical behavior (of Ali fans) (7)
Upvaluing Ali's opponents

Now we FINALLY (after all the insults and non-answers) come to the beef. It's the CORE of the "Ali religion" and why AliFans think that Ali was "teh greatesss":

Ladies and gentlemen! Here it is:

The mythical

Quality of Ali's opponents

You have to understand that not only Ali is superhuman, but he is so superhuman that he wins against other superhumans (= the boxers of the 1970ies).

Of all the reasons why "Ali is great" and why "Ali's era was The Golden Age of Heavyweight Boxing" _THIS_ is the major uber-reason:
Ali has won against the "bestest" opponents the world has ever seen.

And actually it's a phenomenon: Even Ali's bummiest opponents (like ·Chuck Wepner (35-13), ·Jimmy Young (34-18) or ·Willi Besmanoff (51-33)) are household names amongst AliFans…. while at the same time they consider Klitschkos' opponents bums:

·Sam Peter (34-2) is a big turd
·Tony Thompson (34-0) nobody has ever heard of
·Chris Byrd (41-3) would be trash in the 70ies
·Hasim Rahman (47-6) was shot
·Juan Carlos Gomez (47-1) shouldn't be a heavyweight
·Chris Arreola (29-1) is a slob
·Albert Sosnowski (45-2) is the bum of the month
·Corrie Sanders (42-3) wasn't even a boxer but a golfer etc etc.

Unbelievable bias.


Now, If you happen to point out that Ali's opponents were comparable to nowadays (or even worse) then AliFans do one or more of the following:

  • get an epileptic seizure and resort to insults and non-answers (like above)
  • claim that Ali's opponents (= 2nd level) are so much better than nowadays because Ali's opponents' opponents (3rd level) were so much better than Wladimir's opponents' opponents (3rd level)
  • try to upvalue Ali's opponents by majority opinion
    • Earnie Shavers is regarded by most people with a clue as the hardest hitting heavyweight of all-time"
    • "Everybody knows that Klitschko hasn't faced anyone like (insert opponent of Ali here)"
    • "This current era is crap as every expert can tell you"
  • try to argue by some mysterious qualityor the style of fighting
    • "Ali's opponents had more heart"
    • "Wlad's opponents just come to get a paycheck"
    • "Opponents nowadays couldn't go 15 rounds anymore"
  • try to declare that "black is white and white is black" ("Klitschko fights chinless bums as seen by the fact how easily he KOs them, while Ali fought really tough opponents as you can see from the fact that he couldn't KO them")
    Read also Wladimir Klitschko sucks because he KOs his opponents
  • point out that Ali won against 7 HOFers (Hall-of-Famers) and Klitschko has won against none (which is obvious since to become a HOFer you have to retire for several years, while the majority of Klitschko's opponents are still boxing)
  • try to convince you that Ali's bum opponents (e.g. ·Jimmy Young (34-19), ·Leon Spinks (26-17), ·Chuck Wepner (35-14), ·Jean-Pierre Coopman (36-16) etc) were actually superior and that career records "only tell a tiny fraction of the story"


You will hardly ever find an AliFan that tries to prove by ACTUAL FACTS that Ali's opponents were good or better than nowadays heavyweight fighters.

And I know why:

ecause Ali's opponents were NOTHING special (except ·George Foreman).

And how could they be anything special? No one in his right mind would claim that, letsay, body-builders or ski jumpers are worse now than 40-50 years ago. But this is exactly what AliFans are claiming.

In fact Ali's wins came with so much struggle against mediocre opposition that you wonder whether you have been watching the same fights.

Obviously the major difference
between me and AliFans is that
I don't watch his fights ON MY KNEES.



Typical behavior (of Ali fans) (8)
Declaring that Muhammad Ali's style was perfect and then comparing it to modern heavyweights

A very bad side-effect of the statements "Ali was the best heavyweight boxer ever" + "Ali's opponents were the toughest opponents ever" is that Ali's era is declared a blueprint for "How heavyweight boxing should look like" and "How opponents should fight".

In other words:

hatever modern heavies do in the eyes of nostalgists they will never match Ali's style (which is especially cynical because Ali's style is how you SHOULD NOT FIGHT as I wrote at Would Ali's fighting style be merely disgusting today or also ineffective?).

  • Wladimir Klitschko is bad… because he doesn't float and dance like Ali
  • Wladimir Klitschko is bad… because he KOs his opponents instead of fighting for 12 rounds
  • Wladimir Klitschko is bad… because he doesn't trashtalk
  • Wladimir Klitschko is bad… etc…


  • Klitschko's opponents are bad… because they don't brawl it out with Wladimir Klitschko
  • Klitschko's opponents are bad… because nobody has ever heard of them
  • etc…

They declare Ali's supposedly good features (dancing and floating) and Ali's bad features (featherfisted'ness etc) as the "picture book style".

You need to understand that in the minds of AliFans having superior punching power (Tyson, Klitschko, Foreman etc) is _NOT_ too impressive (since Ali himself was a featherfist = "like a butterfly"). It's far more impressive for them to have a WEAK PUNCH PLUS A GOOD CHIN, since only this guarantees fights that go full 12/15 rounds and end by decision which they can talk about for years to come.

If you could sum up the difference between good-old-time-nostalgists (= those who love to watch black/white boxing footage) and modern fans then it would be:

Nostalgists: chin > fists
Modern fans: fists > chin

That's one of the reasons why ·George Foreman is never considered better than Ali (see below). Because he KO'ed the opponents easily where Ali had to brawl it out. Ali's fights against half-blind ·Joe Frazier ("Thrilla in Manilla") is "Fight of the Year" while Foreman's destruction of Frazier (half a year later) within 4.5 rounds is merely "A terrible match up for Frazier".

It's the same type of reasoning: Klitschko is bad because he dominates his opponents so much thus obviously his opponents are bad. While Ali's fights were against opponents who were sooo much tougher as demonstrated by Ali's struggle.

Nostalgists: Brawl > Dominance

For a complete list of the differences between American and non-American view on fighting styles read Wladimir Klitschko sucks because he KOs his opponents.



Typical behavior (of Klitschko haters) (9)
Designing a cherry-pick statistic

AliFans sometimes use designer definitions ("designed flaws") to prove the superiority of Ali (or the bum'ness of the Klitschkos)

  • "KOs scored against opponents who were 25-28 years old"
  • "KO'ratio without one's own losses"
  • "Featherfisted'ness of opponents 10 years after start of career"
  • "Wins at age 22"
  • (all true examples)

You can "prove" a lot of things with such definitions, but they are as worthless as "The largest dinosaur east of Mississippi".


A variation of this behavior is what I call "thimblerig trick". It works by taking (somewhat objective) definitions and switching them midway, which goes like this:

  1. Muhammad Ali is better than Wladimir Klitschko because Ali won his first world title being younger than Wlad
  2. Lennox Lewis is better than Wladimir Klitschko because Lennox was KO'ed less than Wlad.
  3. Mike Tyson is better than Wladimir Klitschko because he KO'ed more opponents in rounds 1-3 than Wlad.
  4. Larry Holmes is better than Wladimir Klitschko because he has more consecutive title wins than Wlad.
  5. "Thus Wlad can only be ranked at #5 (if he is lucky)."

Now, let us expose this nonsense by counter-shell-gaming:

  1. Wladimir Klitschko is better than Larry Holmes because Wlad won his first world title being younger.
  2. Wladimir Klitschko is better than Lennox Lewis because he has more consecutive title wins than Lennox.
  3. Wladimir Klitschko is better than Mike Tyson because Wlad was KO'ed less than Tyson.
  4. Wladimir Klitschko is better than Muhammad Ali because KO'ed more opponents in rounds 1-3 than Ali.
  5. Voila! QED! Wlad stands head and shoulders above these ATGs and should be ranked #1!



Typical behavior (of Ali fans) (10)
Fabricating Facts

Very often I found AliFans FABRICATING facts and figures.

Very often.

Even their own "cherry-pick statistics" (see above) result in wrong numbers more often than not ("wormed cherries"). Actually as soon as AliFans mention some "facts" better check it for yourself because more often than not the "facts turn into acts". It's a strange phenomenon only encountered with AliFans and Tyson fans.

For example they may increase the size of Ali's opponents. ·Earnie Terrell would suddenly become 6'7".

Or they may claim "Wladimir Klitschko has never faced anyone who had the reach of Foreman". It turns out that Wladimir faced 3 other opponents with Foreman's reach (who additionally outweighed him). Wlad KO'ed all of them.

Or they may claim that "Wladimir only wins because his opponents are ((insert negative feature))". A typical claim would be "Wladimir wins because he outweighs his opponents while Ali and Foreman did not". It turns out that it's vice versa: While Wladimir Klitschko only outweighs his opponents in approximately 50% of the fights, Ali did so in 70% and Foreman in 90%.

The complete table can be found at Wladimir Klitschko only wins by outweighing his opponents



Sometimes AliFans use half-truths to overwhelm us: "Wlad's opponents are trash. Ali fought all-time-greats like ·Larry Holmes!!" without mentioning that Ali LOST to Holmes. There is no sense in mentioning a great opponent… whom you lost to. This also happens with Tyson fans who would mention Tyson's losses as a proof of greatness

"wlad is not even half the destroyer tyson was————-not to mention that wlad's oppositon isnt chit compared to tyson's========tyson dealt with razor [with whom Tyson went full 12 rounds], holyfield [whom Tyson lost to twice], douglas [who KO'ed Tyson],lennox [who KO'ed Tyson] and whatever–wlad doesnt have one dam name worth chit to his reusme==== ————evander [who has one of the lowest KO'ratios of all heavyweight champs] would had mopped the floors with your robot= who has the air load of a turtle"

(original quote and an example how 1) blind Klitschko hate is often accompanied with nonsense and 2) how a fame-name on the record is more important than a win)

By that standard ·Calvin Jones who fought against ·Vitali Klitschko, ·Ike Ibeabuchi, ·Shannon Briggs, ·Henry Akinwande, ·David Tua, ·Andrew Golota, ·Francois Botha, ·Lennox Lewis and ·Tony Tucker would be ATG.

And believe me, it happened more than once
that Larry Holmes was brought up
as the proof of Ali's greatness.

Another version of the fabricated statistic is the claim "Height and weight are completely meaningless" (old-time-nostalgists LOVE this myth) ("It's not how big the dog in the fight but big the fight is in the dog").

I ran through approx. 40'000 fights and if you have a weight/height advantage then your chances to win are approx 3:1. In other words: If you are smaller/lighter then you have to be 2-3 times BETTER than your opponent. Thus Ali (or Tyson, Foreman, Lennox Lewis etc) would have to be 2-3 times better than the Klitschkos. See also Joe Frazier vs Klitschko -OR- is Chris Byrd a better puncher than Earnie Shavers? where I feature how immensely Ali's KO'ratio declines with heavier opponents.



Typical behavior (of Ali fans) (11)
Calling you a racist

This is a topic for itself (Muhammad Ali – The most famous racist to ever box -OR- Criticizing Ali is racism) but let me add here that it's one of the cheapest arguments since you can hardly ever prove that you ARE NOT something ("Prove to me that you never killed anyone").

However, usually my response is that I consider ·George Foreman (a black boxer) to be the best boxer of the 1970s. That settles it normally.



Typical behavior (of Ali fans) (12)

Expect to be banned from threads and forums if you insist too much that Ali is overrated. Even the slightest critique might be interpreted as "offensive" or "racist" (as I wrote at Muhammad Ali – The most famous racist to ever box -OR- Criticizing Ali is racism) and then a ban is just around the corner.

Once all of my posts got deleted after I merely asked for a quote of Ali where he revokes his earlier racism.

I once got banned from a forum for stating that I don't find Ali's humor funny.

Bans have a far greater implication than merely being upsetting. Bans are a pro-Ali censorship ("Butterfly reserve") and keep the mythology of the 1970s alive.

By effectively filtering out Ali critics and pro-modern-era fans you create the ILLUSION that a majority of boxing fans thinks that the modern era is bad.



The attack of the "Clay Clones"

Approximately 1 year after I wrote this article here I had a discussion with an AliFan. His behavior was so typical it was even astonishing for myself. Here is an original quote which sums up this whole article here:

"No one is going to your blog… How are you not banned for your lies and idiocy? How old are you, son? And do you hate people 'of color'?"
(original quote)

The full set of "I won't read your blog", "Your facts are lies", "I will not discuss with an idiot", "Ban him!"…

As if it's hardwired in the brain of Ali fans.




No fans are more vicious and deluded than Muhammad AliFans and Klitschko haters. Incidentally it turns out that Klitschko haters usually _ARE_ AliFans and AliFans usually _ARE_ Klitschko haters. Two sides of the same coin.

I believe that Ali's fandom is driven by a very strong nationalistic, religious and racial component (= most AliFans are either American, Muslim or black) as opposed to, let's say, ·Joe Frazier or ·Lennox Lewis) which explains why AliFans are so vile: They are DEFENDING their socio-cultural ICON instead of merely ARGUING for a boxer.

My article here sums up the experience when discussing Ali or Klitschko (or modern heavyweights in general). It should give you a good insight and starting point to understand and predict AliFans. You can verify my experiences within half an hour by joining a boxing discussion group.

Please note: Discussing Ali may also cause hate for other reasons as I wrote at Muhammad Ali – The most famous racist to ever box -OR- Criticizing Ali is racism.

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Of Klitards and CLAYtons. This is the most retarded boxing blog ever and I won't bother to read it!, 3.8 out of 5 based on 17 ratings

Comments (13)

  • Honza says:
    [ip2username: Gapy Xoze]
    #376 Honza (2011-06-03rd)

    I am Ali fan and Klitschko hater. Okay but Im from Czech and I am white. I also know that Muhammads punching power was bad but I also think that Klitschkos are little bit overrated. I just do not like boxers who work as a team ( or as family in Klitschko case). They said that their goal is unifie all major titles for themselves. But if you wanna be best you must be best by yourself. Klitschko vs Klitschko shut show as who is best boxer right know. Evander Holyfield is already too old.

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  • Honza says:
    [ip2username: Rypo Lezi]
    #391 Honza (2011-06-07th)

    What? Yo do not have any good answer?

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    • Tommo says:
      [ip2username: Puga Lyxo]
      #5676 Tommo (2013-03-26th)

      I get your point Honza, there hasn't been a situation like this. The Spinks brothers were both one time champs at roughly the same time but not exactly and were NEVER about to have it locked up lol. Anyway I think Vitali will be retired soon and the belts will be unified if that makes you feel any better about it. Don't know how they work as a team though, it's boxing lol. Vitali has only the one belt too so it's not like any opponents are locked down either. I wouldn't want to fight my brother in a world title either so can't blame them for having family values.

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      • Honza says:
        [ip2username: Gajy Xode]
        #5797 Honza (2013-03-30th)


        Have you ever seen fighting Klitschko without his brother being in his corner. Also during staredown there are both. I think they are using mindgames. Message to their oponents are clear: We are two borthers. You want to beat one than you have to beat the second one. My opinion. It just does not seem like normal family support if you ask me.

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      • Tommo says:
        [ip2username: Puga Lyxo]
        #5818 Tommo (2013-03-31st)

        Yes they're joined at the hip. All I'm saying is that once in the ring, his brother cannot help him and vice verse. I don't know if their showing up together has intimidated any opponents into worse performance. They could theoretically be handballing opponents to each other they see more fit to want to fight, they could. This would be an unusual advantage to stay at the top but Wladimir with all his belts would not want to be ducking anybody, especially the up and comers as he will know that it will expose his credibility in this way. I would want some hard evidence first before I'd say he's let his brother handle some potentially troublesome opponents for him and the reverse but I will concede one thing, their lack of too many common opponents may point to some collusion.

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  • LaVida says:
    [ip2username: Linu Sapy]
    #480 LaVida (2011-07-02nd)


    Your opinions are still: Opinions.

    I'm not a racist, I'm not any fan of any particular boxer. Personally, I think Ali's trashtalking was a bit too much, especially against Joe Frazier, whom he feared the most. Holmes' statement that Ali is/was overrated I do agree to. Of course Ali's prime was over when they fought, but I firmly believe that prime Holmes would give prime Ali a lot of trouble.

    Personally, I think any boxer who's the ruling champ is a top boxer. Boxing eras do not have all that much to do with it, as any era produce 'strong' opponents/average opponents/'weak' opponents, etc.

    Wlad is a good champion, true enough. If he's overcome his weaknesses since the Corrie Sanders fight? Hmm, well I think he has improved defensively since that fight, at least somewhat. Which has been one of his problems. His 'chin' might not be the a problem per se, but balance is part of what makes 'chin', and since he has the typical slim & tall pshysique (even though fairly muscular) his balance is at a disadvantage from a physiological standpoint.

    I do not make it my business to be too judgemental against any boxer. I suggest anybody reading this should take notice of that.

    The championship grudge-match David Haye vs Wlad Klitschko coming up tonight I'll be sure to watch.

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    • Tommo says:
      [ip2username: Puga Lyxo]
      #5677 Tommo (2013-03-26th)

      This is a great point. I also feel that although on the whole package height is a tremendous advantage in boxing and obviously is, it also confers some disadvantages, certain speed/recovery issues, short range power issues AND chin issues all related to more challenging balance.

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  • Honza says:
    [ip2username: Gajy Xode]
    #3887 Honza (2012-04-22nd)

    You know that this is actually lie? Most die hard fans are those of Klitschkos and Mike Tyson. Mike Tyson for them is some kind of unbeatable monster and same goes for Klitschkos. It make sense because those boxers have a lot of impressive knockouts so most fans will be atract to them. I also like Mike Tyson. He was very good boxer.
    believe that Ali's fandom is driven by a very strong nationalistic, religious and racial component (= most AliFans are either American, Muslim or black) as opposed to, letusay, ·Joe Frazier or ·Lennox Lewis) which explains why AliFans are so vile: They are DEFENDING their socio-cultural ICON instead of merely ARGUING for a boxer.

    And please stop talking about theese racial and politic issues okay? It really seems like you are racist (Yes now you can come up with typical reproaches argument). Ali is fan favorite all across a globe

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  • Honza says:
    [ip2username: Tany Xone]
    #3983 Honza (2012-05-16th)


    Please finish that topic first and then mention it okay?

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    • Honza says:
      [ip2username: Xisu Napy]
      #5496 Honza (2013-01-29th)

      You started that article back in 2010 and yet it is still just draft.

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      • Tommo says:
        [ip2username: Puga Lyxo]
        #5823 Tommo (2013-03-31st)

        I would also like to see that article completed as it is absolutely central to the great debate over Ali's h2h performance in modern times. Article should have been written first before such character slandering as the racist article you wrote. lol ;)

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  • Tommo says:
    [ip2username: Puga Lyxo]
    #5678 Tommo (2013-03-26th)

    Not all of them are and some of them are only on occasion. But WHY is it that ONLY Ali/Frazier fans have to retaliate with mindless insults lol. You can see the lack of any sort of class orwell though out arguments just by looking at the long list of abuse. If they have an objective opinion, or even a subjective one based around an objective one then share it. Not "this is sh*t article, your so dumb" sort of crap. What's the point of that. Article is very true. Ali's fans are on the whole the worst for that very reason Honza, because they are defending Ali for cultural reasons NOT for his boxing and they do it in the most childish manner. Even fans of the highly controversial Mike Tyson I rarely hear throwing such abuse around without having some sort of intelligent retort to accompany it.

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    • Tommo says:
      [ip2username: Puga Lyxo]
      #5881 Tommo (2013-04-02nd)

      On closer inspection there seem to be as many Wlad fans who are also incredibly naïve. I guess there will always be blind defenders who really don't advance the argument on both sides of the divide.

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