Fear of getting hurt badly in Kickboxing-is Judo/Wrestling more my style?

Discussion in 'Kickboxing' started by ronki23, Mar 22, 2011.

  1. Kurtka Jerker

    Kurtka Jerker Valued Member

    It's not required and you know it. You also know that if that lack of understanding leads you to say untrue or unreliable things, people are perfectly allowed to dispute them. There's no reason to imply he's infringing on your rights to post.
  2. Lorelei

    Lorelei Valued Member

    This is getting out of hand. Believe it or not, Ratty, I've been agreeing with you for the most part! Re-read posts 83 and 88 - the physics backs you up in your assertion that a jab is more effective than a backfist. I'm one of those strange people who like to investigate both sides of an argument, though, and I was pretty sure there would be some situation in which a backfist might become a practical option so I was trying to come up with one. You and Mike are right to say I may lack understanding of real fight strategies, but I'm still not sure what it is that I have stated as fact, that you think is untrue. Please bear in mind that I have qualified most of my statements regarding efficacy of backfist strikes with 'may' or 'might' - this means just what it says; in certain situations, backfist may work in such a manner, not that it absolutely will.

    If my hypothetical situations are unreliable, tell me how, don't just say 'non-contact people need a wake-up call'! I'd like to learn more about full-contact fight dynamics, but learning through practice is not something I'm physically capable of at the moment so I need input from those of you that are capable to improve my knowledge.

    My scenario in post 95 (admittedly a contrived one) was an attempt to answer a question posed at the end of Ratty's post 91. Believe me, I am aware of the risks of using a backfist in that situation, which is why I qualified it so heavily. My instinct in such a situation would be to use my legs to distract or damage my captors so I could break free, but the devil's advocate in me still says backfisting the guy in front might be a viable option at the same time, under the right circumstances. What those circumstances might be, I don't know. More experienced opinion seems to say NOOOOO!!! so I'll accept that for now.
  3. m1k3jobs

    m1k3jobs Dudeist Priest

    I'm not sure why you can't train at this type of school but based on that a good way to determine what works is to become a fan of the combative sports.

    Because of their pragmatic focus competitions are a proving ground for what is effective and what isn't, within the rules of course. If you are seeing something that is within the rules being used it's because it most likely a technique that doesn't have a high success rate when it has been used.

    Also instead of a striking art maybe some grappling may be more your cup of tea.

    I'm 57, bad knees, somewhat arthritic and the slowest person on the mats but I can train submission grappling / BJJ. I have yet to go to a school where they can't or won't accommodate your training needs. Just a thought.
  4. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Nice discussion... great points.

    Lorelie, something about backfists that might interest you. The use of backfists in sport has changed the use of the technique. In karate point fighting, the backfist has turned into something for speed and not for the greatest power, so it is like a jab. The method of using a backfist is like the jab version of an uppercut. So instead of throwing an lead hand uppercut, this is a snapping motion like the uppercut hitting with the back of the hand... this is the tournament backfist. Of course because of the rules, the backfist like this works well because you can snap it back and not hit the opponent, it therefore can score good points.

    This is not like the spinning backfist, which can be very powerful.

    If you look at the use of the backfist, however, in technique outside of point fighting, the bare knuckles are used to hit specific targets such as the temple, under the arm pit, and the jawline. It is not a power hit, it is not a jab, it is a precision strike with the knuckles. The applications are usually not stand alone, generally in karate you would be pulling on the arm of the opponent while back fist striking them with the other hand.

    This movie scene is not real life obviously, but it shows a lot of different types of back fists, and please, no Chuck Norris jokes (except you know if Chuck does it, then it must be good):

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aM-rq_xqciA"]YouTube - Chuck Norris Vs David Carradine Climactic Final Fight - Lone Wolf McQuade[/ame]

    Besides the spinning back fists (which has a few ways of doing this), the jab/uppercut back fist, I know of three ways execute a backfist.

    1) Recoil (target temple or under armpit). This is simply a shortened version of the spinning backfist. It lacks the power of the spinning version but gains in accuracy. This technique is used when you have the opponents arm and you can pull on it slightly so that they "lean" into the strike to add power to the hit. This technique take advantage of the bounce off of the target to flow into your next technique. It is designed to stun.

    2) Raking back knuckle (target jawline, ribs, arms) is used to stun and cut open the opponent. Basically instead of bouncing back, continue striking through the target and rake the knuckles across to cut them. There are a few variants of this. In karate kid II movie, this technique would fall under the "drum principle" in the movie and could follow with a reverse punch or a rear hand hammer fist. Often this strike is seen as a block as it can be used to rake the knuckles on the opponent's bicep/tricep (looks like a karate outward block in forms) and followed by an other hand strike. This strike is also good as a follow up strike to an elbow strike.

    3) Power strike (target heart, side of head, and under the arm pit to the pressure points). This version is basically a side hammer fist. It works in only a few situations (a) the opponent is caught unaware or by surprise or already stunned, (b) the opponent is basically squared to you (not turned sideways), and (c) you end up more sideways to the opponent so follow up techniques are limited techniques that work well when turned more sideways (although a rear leg front kick does seem to work as a follow up due to the knock back on the opponent). Okay, so here is the way that I would describe this technique based on the knowledge that many are familiar with the boxing jab. This is not exactly the best way to learn it but I think it can help people relate:

    3.1 Start in a southpaw (right foot forward) boxing stance. Throw a right jab but instead of hitting with the front of the fist, strike to the side so that the back of the knuckles/hand strikes the target (this means your arm is kept bent or you will hyper extend your elbow, which is no good).

    3.2 As you impact the heavy bag or the jawline of the opponent, rotate the fist so that it hits as a sideways hammer fist, as you do this your body is rotating to turn more sideways to the target. This is half the technique but it should demonstrate the power.

    3.2 The other half of the technique is to basically rake the fore arm across the side of the neck (the resembles throwing an elbow to the side to an imaginary target to your right)... this might be too complex but I include this information for completeness. And also the hips rotation is very important. The first part of the technique rotates the hips so you are more sideways for a sharper angle but the follow through (second part) opens the hip (rotates the hip in the opposite direction); this hip rotation is very close to (except turned more sideways) as a jab/cross combination.

    Also for completeness, the start of the technique is to "jump in" on the opponent to close the gap (maybe they are staggering back from getting hit already).

    Hope this makes sense.

    And @Ratty, the krav maga video was not a great example of that technique. I failed to find anything good and gave up looking. And I know you just don't take my word for it, but it is a very powerful strike.
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2011
  5. Master Betty

    Master Betty Banned Banned

    There's one little point in this which makes it bullcrap. You hit anyone with any power without your wrist braced or in a straight position and you're asking for a break. virtually every scenario you've posted, if it was capable of generating the power implied, would result in your wrist absorbing more of the force than yor opponents' face. That's not a good thing.
  6. Lorelei

    Lorelei Valued Member

    I currently train in non-contact karate (seems more like semi-contact sometimes, but it isn't supposed to be) and want to give judo a try. I have discussed it with my son's judo coach, but I've been advised to wait a while. I had abdominal surgery a few weeks ago and keep damaging myself trying to do too much too soon, so it's taking ages to heal properly. I've started karate training again, but only basics and kata for now - kumite will have to wait until my other half stops making me damage myself helping him with the DIY......
  7. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    That's an excellent point.

    I guess technically speaking, the power is hitting through the forearm, not the knuckles on the power version (#3 technique). The knuckles are hitting as a result of the shape of the arm when it hits. The rotation to a hammerfist adds to the effect of the hit and to the acceleration into the target. This also exposes the blade edge of the forearm which hits along the neck under the jawline.

    Edit: My intentions were to show that the back fist isn't one single technique. It is part of many different techniques. A backfist rotating into a hammer fist is one example. The actual technical details of these techniques doesn't always transfer well to words and I was unable to find any good examples otherwise.
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2011
  8. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    I think I better get a shovel cause I'm digging my own grave. Here is another example of the power version of the backfist. This is probably what it would end up in real life; not a great demonstration of the power structure, plus you don't need to hit that hard if you hit in the right places.

    Anyway, the pivot point is in the forearm, the fist moves in a straight line ideally to the target. The forearm hits first with the most power as the shape of the technique is for close in. The back fist/knuckle hits the target as the forearm is used to guide the hand to the target. The hand is rotated into a hammer fist strike for more acceleration and to rake with blade of the forearm along the neck.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o6Jl3_5O-Xc"]YouTube - Pimp Gets Knocked Out By Karate Instructor.m4v[/ame]

    :hammer: I now should shut up as I have gone even more downhill.
  9. m1k3jobs

    m1k3jobs Dudeist Priest

    It also helps that the person your hitting is so smashed they can hardly walk.
  10. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    This is how I like the back fist style strike. Skip to about 1 minute in.


    Can land with the knuckles, back of the hand, forearm, knifehand etc. A nice follow through. Not a snappy shot but a heavy slam with the full weight of the arm and hip.

    And incidentally the guy holding the pad is my old Thai instructor Pierre Mahon. :)
  11. m1k3jobs

    m1k3jobs Dudeist Priest

    Kind of like swinging a baseball bat.
  12. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    That's very close to the Tai Chi version that I feel has the most power.

    Thanks PASmith.
  13. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    It's perfectly possible to deliver a backfist strike with a ton of power without damaging your wrist.

    Whether it's a high % or even particularly useful technique in most "live" situations is, perhaps, another matter, but it's certainly possible.

  14. ronki23

    ronki23 Valued Member

    Urraken Uchi!!!!

    At the end of the day, it's just plain ignorant saying 'backfists don't work'-yeah-in MMA or boxing where THE GLOVE CUSHIONS THE KNUCKLES. If you slap someone it may sting them if they're wusses but THE FASTEST PUNCH AVAILABLE coupled with BARE KNUCKLE shots will hurt someone in real life-especially if you hit the temple or mouth area-why? It's fast and you're hitting with the top two knuckles. Think of the chain-mace,whip or nunchaku.

    ^If I use the classic pointfighting blitz in real life, it's probably more effective that trading blows continuosly-not only will I probably cut open the face near someone's eye but I can distract him and nail him with a punch to the solar plexus and/or ridgehand him to the jaw (caught may people out in both points AND continuos with that).

    I spoke to my ex and current instructor's instructor Gordon Mitchell-he's trained in a variety of martial arts and fought semi contact,light continuos and full contact, he knows different wrestling styles (freestyle,Judo,Ju Jitsu,Aikido,Krav Maga,Sambo and San Shou) Not only has he won in WAKO but in ISKA and WKA as well.


    Gordon has told me three very important things:

    A) The WCL shows that pointfighting added to continuos full contact fighting will enhance the latter.

    B) In a real life situation, point fighting can help (as with the scenario I myself put above) but also because continuos fighting can be a hinderance say if you fight someone wielding a knife or weapon- you don't want to defend/take your time-you want to hit him fast and/or use disarming techniques and grappling

    and finally

    C) If people don't listen to you then don't waste your time-if you like something and think it helps you then do it.
    All I know is that semi contact point fighting is statistically better for me-i've won 3 in that as opposed to 1 in light continuos. WITHOUT A DOUBT it makes you faster and Bill Wallace,Joe Lewis,Benny Uriquidez,Don Wilson,Raymond Daniels and Lyoto Machida have benefit from it.
    ^HOWEVER, I will style take the advice given on telling my colleagues to hit me with circular techniques if I turn my head away/ use knife defence as a reason to keep looking straight.
  15. Southpaw535

    Southpaw535 Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    You've never sparred with mma gloves have you :)
  16. Master Betty

    Master Betty Banned Banned

    There's no arguing with someone who'll believe whatever they want regardless of scientific fact. Go to church - they love that attitude.
  17. Willsy

    Willsy 'Ello love

    I'm a karateka and even I know that the only backfist of any real value is spinning...
  18. Wotonito

    Wotonito Valued Member

    @ronki123 Uhh, the gloves in martial arts don't reduce the damage they cause, they actually cause more damage... In boxing, the huge gloves redirect the damage straight to the jaw and brain (and of course, away from your hands), ignoring the skin, whereas if they weren't using the gloves you would get some nasty scratches on your face, but the opponents hand would be broken and you'd still (probably) be standing.

    I'm not very smart but, I feel non-spinning-backfists should be used against people not trained to fight, like against that pimp from earlier, and if you're in the ring you probably shouldn't rely on it too much...
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2011
  19. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    The gloves don't cause more damage, but I agree with your point. Getting hit with gloves is a lot like getting hit with an open hand strike. Really rattles the brain.

    When I get hit with a bare knuckle in the face, it stings a lot, but I don't see stars.

    Getting hit in the jaw, well gloved is probably more chance of knock out, but bareknuckle still can knock out. Although the I pretty sure the chance of getting a broken jaw is much greater bare knuckle since the force in concentrated on a smaller area.

    As for the backfist discussion. I worked with a student today in class on the back fist strikes. It was a good refresher for me. I was a little off on some of my assessments. I found the back knuckle strike under the armpit can be done with about the power of a jab, not any more, maybe less. However, because it is hitting a pressure point and by pulling on the arm at the same time, the effect is really good. Even a lighter hit there worked well. I tried this on the heavy bag with a lot of power behind it and as Master Betty pointed out, my wrist did not take the pressure for the hit and bent down. So the back knuckle isn't a power strike, but a precision strike.

    On the other hand, I went back to the back fist rotating into the hammer fist and found it had more power but 9 out of 10 times I didn't hit with the backfist at all but hit as a hammer fist... so that one doesn't really count as a backfist strike IMO.

    So I was left with the back hand strike, like the one in PASmith's video post in this thread. This I could not do with a closed fist, I had to be completely relaxed. I found I whiped the hand out like it was a wet towel. The back of the hand and the forearm hit hard. I had the student holding a thick pad shoulder height and he said it still hurt him as well as the force driving him to the side and down into the ground. We switched positions and I could feel he had a lot of power with that strike too.

    My instructor added in the finer points I was missing (things I had forgot from Tai Chi). As I whip out the back of the hand like a wet towel, hitting the target on the side of the head, my other hand rotates and moves in the opposite direction. This added power to the end at impact, a very sharp acceleration... as I would describe, the cracking of the whip.

    It is definitely a good technique IMO.
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2011
  20. Estrix

    Estrix Valued Member

    I'm going to jump back in on the point about gloves.

    Four to eight ounce MMA gloves don't reduced the damage from a blow very much, they're more designed to protect the knuckles from getting split, and to stop your opponents face being gouged open. This is quite a good idea, not only does it reduce the chance of TKO, it stops you cutting up your hand on you opponents teeth and getting a nasty infection lol.

    Heavy boxing gloves are another matter. The added mass means that the total force applied to the point of contact means you do end up with greater force applied (F=mxa). My reading around suggests that actually more people have been killed and brain damaged in boxing matches since the addition of boxing gloves than under the previous london rules. Part of the reason for this is probably because with boxing gloves it's safer (for your hands) to strike the opponent in the head. Bare knuckle tends to make the jaw bone a fairly poor target .

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