=== dkessel_ is now known as dkessel
=== paolo_ is now known as paolo
ochosihey guys, if anyone can attend the release schedule meeting today at 16utc (UOS), that'd be great (skellat is busy)08:22
elfymight be able to flit in an out - any particular issues we need raising ?08:25
ochosi(if not, we'll survive)08:25
ochosinah, i see this more as "just in case"08:26
ochosithere is no specific agenda there for us, afaics08:26
elfyochosi: okey doke - I'll try and be there 08:27
ochosithanks a bunch!08:27
brainwashskellat: would applying the patch do any harm?08:42
brainwasheven if just removes the warning message08:43
brainwashif it08:43
ochosigotta take off, bbl09:03
bluesabre!team: Xubuntu community meeting in 7ish minutes10:53
ubottubluesabre: I am only a bot, please don't think I'm intelligent :)10:53
bluesabre!team | Xubuntu community meeting in 7ish minutes10:53
ubottuXubuntu community meeting in 7ish minutes: bluesabre, elfy, jjfrv8, knome, lderan, micahg, Noskcaj, ochosi, pleia2, skellat, slickymaster, Unit19310:53
bluesabre!team | Meeting time!11:00
ubottuMeeting time!: bluesabre, elfy, jjfrv8, knome, lderan, micahg, Noskcaj, ochosi, pleia2, skellat, slickymaster, Unit19311:00
bluesabre#startmeeting Xubuntu community meeting11:00
meetingologyMeeting started Thu Nov 13 11:00:17 2014 UTC.  The chair is bluesabre. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.11:00
meetingologyAvailable commands: action commands idea info link nick11:00
bluesabregood morning folks, who's around?11:00
bluesabretoday might be a reschedule...11:04
slickymasterWorkhey guys11:05
bluesabrehey dkessel, slickymasterWork11:05
bluesabrewe'll give it a few minutes and see if people start to trickle in before starting11:05
slickymasterWorkso, no one else around, besides us?11:05
bluesabreUnit193 is lurking in -ot11:06
slickymasterWorkyeah, I was going to as if Unit193 isn't still awake :P11:06
slickymasterWorks/to as /to ask11:06
Unit193Zombie mode, biting and all.11:06
slickymasterWorkheh fortunately we are immunized Unit193 11:07
bluesabreAlrighty, let's get started then11:08
bluesabre#topic Open action items11:08
bluesabreslickymasterWork, you've got one on the list, progress?11:09
slickymasterWorkjust a sec bluesabre 11:10
elfyhi - be 2 minutes 11:10
slickymasterWork#info slickymaster started the calls for "translations important for xubuntu"11:11
slickymasterWorkI'm planning to run two more calls until the end of the cycle11:11
bluesabreI guess you can probably #done that one for now11:12
slickymasterWork#done slickymaster to start a series of run calls for "translations important for xubuntu" list defined in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Processes#Package_translations11:13
bluesabrethanks :)11:13
bluesabrewe'll wait for elfy11:13
elfyhere now11:13
bluesabrecool, action items?11:14
elfyall done11:14
elfy#done mail the -devel list to garner comment on pad11:14
elfy#done mail -devel re where we support testers 11:15
elfyand more formalized proposal about the QA process is more or less done but not on wiki yet11:15
bluesabrethat could ne #info'd if you want11:16
elfyor carry on the existing action 11:16
bluesabrethat too11:17
bluesabrealrighty then11:17
elfy#action elfy and knome to complete the QA processes change 11:17
meetingologyACTION: elfy and knome to complete the QA processes change11:17
bluesabre#topic Team updates11:17
elfyI got a few11:18
bluesabre#info Vivid should no longer have pink highlights except for the slideshow11:18
bluesabrego ahead11:18
elfy#info QA waiting on main -release team to start scheduling cycle11:18
elfy#info some image testing happening11:18
elfy#info some package testing happening11:19
elfy#info package testing finding odd issues with testcases - bug's being reported/dealt with11:19
qwebirc88404sigh 11:19
elfywb qwebirc88404 - not seen you since yesterday :D11:20
qwebirc88404#info slickymaster updated Debian screenshots for Xfce/important packages~11:20
bluesabreslickymaster, thanks for that :)11:20
=== qwebirc88404 is now known as slickymasterWork
bluesabre#info Development is picking up on light-locker, new dev release expected soonish11:21
bluesabreotherwise, development is a bit slow atm for our team11:22
bluesabre#action bluesabre to improve widget naming in Catfish to aid autopilot11:24
meetingologyACTION: bluesabre to improve widget naming in Catfish to aid autopilot11:24
bluesabrehopefully that will happen tonight11:24
bluesabreanything else for team updates?11:25
elfynot sure there are any other team people about 11:26
bluesabrefair enough11:26
bluesabre#topic Announcements11:26
elfynever understood why that's not last :p11:27
bluesabresame here11:27
bluesabre#info Ubuntu Online Summit (UOS) started yesterday, continues through tomorrow11:27
elfyor penultimate at least11:27
elfyI'm hoping to be floating about during the release planning one - but no guarantees11:28
bluesabreI won't be... hopefully we'll get an idea of the timeframes for gtk 3.14 and systemd (and any other highly breakable updates)11:29
bluesabreif no other announcements, we can start discussion11:30
elfygo for it :)11:30
bluesabre#topic Discussion11:30
elfyshall we move the settings manager one up to top while slickymasterWork is here11:30
bluesabreprobably a good idea11:31
slickymasterWorkactually I think we should postponed that item11:31
slickymasterWorkwe're just three, doesn't seem to make much sense discuss it 11:31
slickymasterWorkwe know for moment that neither knome and ochosi have any strong opinions on the subject11:32
elfyok - but ftr I am -1 to removing from whiskermenu - for when it does get discussed and I'm not here :)11:32
Unit193The idea is to remove "Settings Manager" from the menu?  -111:33
bluesabreI would also be -1. I'm rather fond of the quick access settings manager11:33
slickymasterWorkI'm 0 on it 11:33
bluesabrewe can carry on the discussion throughout the day, it's a relatively low-impact change11:34
dkesseli think that in the end, there should only be one way to access the settings. either from the menu category "settings", or from the "settings manager" button11:35
bluesabreI see benefit in both... having it searchable in whisker, or being able to open the settings manager.  Different folks might prefer one or the other11:36
bluesabre#action -team to further discuss potential removal of Settings Manager from Whisker Menu11:36
meetingologyACTION: -team to further discuss potential removal of Settings Manager from Whisker Menu11:37
elfydkessel: not sure - the price of removing settings from the 'list' is you can't access specific items11:37
dkesseloh ok....11:37
elfyprice of removing the quick button, you can't do a bunch of things concurrently without going back to the menu11:37
elfymy point on this item - we shouldn't be removing things to deal with doc ambiguity - ever11:38
dkesselyeah and i haven't thought about the search feature. i guess you're right. people coming from some other os will expect to be able to search for settings11:38
elfydoc should reflect what we have and want11:38
elfybut - let's move on I guess11:38
bluesabreSo, blueprints11:39
bluesabreOn the dev side, these are in a pretty healthy state.  Items are being added and updated by the team, so that's been pleasant :)11:39
elfyqa ones are pretty much the same as ever - nothing new there nor expected to be11:40
* bluesabre should surprise the qa blueprints11:41
elfygo for it :p11:41
bluesabrelooks like artwork has been going smoothly. We already have all of our themes patched for gtk 3.14, so when that lands we'll upgrade the package11:42
bluesabreer, most of the themes anyway11:43
bluesabreand I think its safe to say we can't really discuss the other ones without knome/pleia211:44
elfyoh - quick question while I think about it please11:44
bluesabrego ahead11:44
elfyeasy way to see  changelogs on ppa updates :)11:45
bluesabrePPAs don't support changelogs for daily builds, but other packages we upload will have them11:45
bluesabreI think11:46
elfyso - mucking about at lp in the ppa to dig out is best way?11:46
bluesabremaybe PPAs don't support them at all... will take a look to see the current status11:46
elfybluesabre: generally not in my experience11:46
bluesabreelfy: I might set up something to at least see the git changelogs somewhere11:47
elfyok - not a biggy, I've been endin up at something like https://launchpadlibrarian.net/190266350/mousepad_0.3.0%2Bgit-0~709~ubuntu15.04.1_0.3.0%2Bgit-0~710~ubuntu15.04.1.diff.gz11:47
elfyvia lp and then more or less working it out :)11:47
elfybluesabre: thanks - let's move on :)11:48
bluesabreAny further planning to plan at this time?11:48
elfynot that I'm aware of11:49
bluesabreUnit193: anything we need to watch for potentially landing in debian?11:49
bluesabreand then syncing over to vivid11:49
Unit193I think I made a note of something minor, don't know what.11:50
bluesabre"Core is set for daily only, what about milestones?"11:50
bluesabreI see some comments on the pad for that one http://pad.ubuntu.com/vivid-QA-plan11:51
elfyyea 11:51
bluesabreSounds like daily is fine then, or specific calls as needed?11:52
elfyUnit193's baby that is :)11:53
bluesabre"it's so precious"11:53
bluesabre"Change application testing to a more 'exploratory system'"11:53
elfythat's a fairly big change11:54
elfygoing to mail list about it soonish but ... 11:54
elfyplan is to NOT call for packages as we did last cycle11:54
elfycall a few times just to get people using vivid to drop by the tracker and report11:54
elfymail testers about staging ppa and the need for testing as things need it11:55
slickymasterWorkyeah, but packages testing does need some sort of a boost11:55
slickymasterWorkthere are too few of us making them11:55
elfytry and get 'dev' to talk to 'qa' as things need testing :)11:55
bluesabreok, sounds reasonable to me (and like less of a headache for you)11:56
elfyslickymasterWork: yea - but as we're just in a mid lts cycle I'm willing to try it - it can't be worse than 14.10 cycle11:56
bluesabreelfy: don't jinx it11:56
elfyit won't be worse - at least one has more than last cycle bluesabre :)11:57
bluesabrewe don't know how bad it can get just yet :)11:57
elfyanyway action me to mail list re that 11:57
bluesabre#action elfy to mail list regarding application testing in a more exploratory system11:57
meetingologyACTION: elfy to mail list regarding application testing in a more exploratory system11:57
bluesabre#chair elfy11:58
meetingologyCurrent chairs: bluesabre elfy11:58
bluesabre#chair knome11:58
meetingologyCurrent chairs: bluesabre elfy knome11:58
bluesabreanybody else want a seat? :)11:59
bluesabreanything else to add to the discussion?11:59
ObrienDavethanks but no thanks ;p11:59
elfybluesabre: not at present11:59
bluesabreknome: blueprints stuff from your side?11:59
bluesabreguessing not12:01
bluesabre#topic Schedule next meeting12:01
bluesabrenext lucky person is....12:01
bluesabreif ubuntu wiki ever loads....12:02
bluesabrethe suspense is killing me12:03
elfyknome is next12:03
bluesabre#action knome to schedule next meeting12:03
meetingologyACTION: knome to schedule next meeting12:03
meetingologyMeeting ended Thu Nov 13 12:03:38 2014 UTC.  12:03
meetingologyMinutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/xubuntu-devel/2014/xubuntu-devel.2014-11-13-11.00.moin.txt12:03
bluesabrethanks all12:03
elfybluesabre: thanks :)12:03
Unit193bluesabre: So right, did you want to sync dropbox-plugin?12:05
bluesabreUnit193: sure, I can do that12:06
bluesabreknome: meetingology seems to not be reading #done ... I thought that was fixed?12:18
knomelderan, PING12:18
knomebluesabre, me too12:18
elfyhi knome 12:19
bluesabremeeting notes are up now, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Meetings12:22
bluesabreassuming I did it correctly anyway :)12:23
elfywell ...12:23
elfyhardest bit is logging in :D12:23
bluesabrelooks like we haven't updated this in a few months, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/TeamReports12:25
bluesabreI can work on that as needed... but not currently12:25
bluesabregotta run, be back tonight12:25
dkesselknome: should i nag you about missing icons in vivid? the icon for servers in the local network is missing in thunar12:59
knomedkessel, no... nag ochosi13:00
* dkessel nags ochosi13:00
knomeelfy, from what pm was okay for you in terms of meetings again on a regular working day?13:03
elfyknome: mon-thurs after 5utc generally13:25
elfythough thurs 1700utc conflicts with another that pleia2 is in too 13:25
knomesidi, just tell me what you want to share and i can tweet it, pleia2 can do the rest of the social media13:45
elfysidi: see :D13:46
knomesidi, and if yoy want, we can organize a guest writer article on xubuntu.org13:46
knomeelfy, asked on #xfce-dev already, so i know what it is about :P13:46
* elfy oftimes has thought about joining there13:47
elfyobviously never gets any further than a fleeting thought 13:48
knomeit's not too high traffic13:48
knomethough otoh, not sure how useful it would be for you13:49
knomeunless you are interested in it generally13:49
elfytends to be about the same time as I think about the shimmer channel too 13:49
knomeshimmer is more traffic, and probably even less useful13:49
elfyit'd only be nosiness rather than anything else :)13:49
knome...unless, again, you are interested in it generally13:49
elfyI guess with the shimmer ppa in use - that's likely to be as much interested as I would be :)13:50
knomein shimmer, there are many discussions like "do you like this pixel 1px to the left or here"13:51
sidiknome, thats good13:51
sidiknome, i think i wanna do this as a shimmer member, targeting xub and xfce social media13:51
elfyknome: I guessed ... 13:51
sidiwill ask corsac if he wants to advertise for debian too when ready13:51
knomesidi, mhm13:51
Unit193There's been comments about icons I ignore, some about themes I ignore, and...13:51
knomesidi, make a plan, and then lets collaborate so we can get it all smoothly out13:52
=== jjfrv8_ is now known as jjfrv8
brainwashdkessel: isn't that a rather old bug?13:58
brainwashthis one bug 130694013:59
ubottubug 1306940 in thunar "In the "browse network" (network:///) instead of the icons displays a blank document" [Low,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/130694013:59
dkesselbrainwash: .... hmm yeah is present in trusty too13:59
knomebrainwash, speaking about bugs, anything i can do to help you getting your team memberships? :)14:00
brainwashknome: no, not until I have written the application14:03
* knome waits14:03
brainwash* 7 days later *14:03
=== brainwash_ is now known as brainwash
sidisidi> http://goo.gl/forms/Oqbe7SEgur session resuming initial survey15:42
sidi<sidi> comments wanted!15:42
sidi<sidi> i plan on complementing this with either some scenario exercises (showing screenshots and asking people what they think *should* happen), or better yet short interviews of novice users, if the data feels like we don't know what to do15:42
sidiknome, ^15:42
knomeHave you changed the applications that start by default when you login? * should probably allow multiple choices for the yes options15:48
sidii need a rough timing btw15:49
knomeDo you think being able to remove autostart applications is useful?  should be probably more towards "pick the option that describes the situation best"15:49
knomeunder 18yo people can't participate?15:50
knomewhy is gender important?15:50
knomehow do you plan to use the nationality/culture field?15:51
knomeand i would move  Would you say that you're very proficient with computers or not at ease with them?  to the beginning of the survey, because the survey can change peoples conception of that15:51
sidiknome, steve@shimmer.. is valid right?15:51
knomewell try it! :P15:51
sidiah right so15:51
sidione by one15:51
knomeyeah, should be..15:52
sidiunder 18yo = you will need parents' agreement probably15:52
sidigenerally speaking i dont use participants under 18 because i dont know or understand the ethical and legal implications across the globe15:52
knomethat's fine, didn't notice that it was mentioned in the first page15:52
sidigender = i want to know how many female respondants, and how badly we need to work to encourage female participation in Xfce15:52
sidiwhich at the moment seems absolutely dismal to me15:53
sidinat/culture because i want to understand if we're designing in an ethno-centric way15:53
knomeokay, but note that the people who participate in this survey hardly represent the xfce community as a whole15:53
sidii.e. all western, and if the non-western respondants have different things to say than the western ones15:53
sidiideally we'd need a translation team to do versions of this in other languages but i doubt we have many resources for that15:53
knomeok, so maybe it would be more useful if you added pre-set selections for that15:54
sidiknome, sadly you're right15:54
sidiknome, it's a very dangerous idea to ask people "are you western/eastern/something else" i think :-) but if you think the question is unclear then i need to rework it indeed15:54
sidifor the proficiency youre correct15:54
knomei think that it will mean a lot of work to categorize those if you have a few dozens or more replies15:55
knomemaybe it could ask the continent15:55
knomewhich would be accurate enough15:55
knomesure, there are people who think they are western who live in asia, and vice versa... but yeah15:55
knomeand that, in my opinion, is not a very loaded question, so ++15:55
knomeand it's auto-organized to the categories we want15:56
sidiideally we'd need to advertise this well to the different xfce communities, getting 50 or so replies would be awesome15:56
knomethe more surveytakers you have, the less open-ended questions you want15:56
knomeTRUST ME15:56
sidihahaha 15:57
sidiyoure totally right15:57
sidiwhat im trying to do here though is some form of experience documentation15:57
sidifor the open ended questions i care about diversity15:57
sidiso i'll just tag them roughly and try to see which stick out15:57
knomebut still...15:57
knomeif it's 50 replies, and 10 open-ended questions, that's 500 fields to read15:57
knomeso maybe one open-ended question per subject would be better15:58
ali1234so these first two questions. i feel like my answers don't really reflect what you are asking15:58
sidii will remove some15:59
ali1234"ho often do you log in to Xfce?" - "less than 1 time per week" - because i never turn off my computer15:59
knomesidi, good for you ;)15:59
sidiali1234, "how often do you login"?15:59
sidiand "how much time it takes"?15:59
knomesidi, right, question #215:59
ali1234it feels like you're asking in general "how much do you use Xfce?"15:59
knome"how long does your computer take to log in"15:59
sidiali1234, not exactly. for instance i use xfce daily but i never login16:00
knome"how quickly do you feel comfortable to start working after you've logged in"16:00
sidii always suspend16:00
sidiso i dont care about session suspend/resume16:00
sidiknome, good points16:00
ali1234yes, and question #2, i'm going to say "very long" but not because login takes a long time, it's because i start up load of programs that don't autostart16:00
ali1234i do it manually16:00
sidiali1234, right so i need to ask why16:00
ali1234and i don't mind doing it manually because i never restart16:00
sidiali1234, same for me when the pc crashes16:00
sidibut i do mind a lot personally ;D16:01
sidiok i need to improve those16:01
ali1234in fact the only time when i restart is when i have too many windows open and i can't be bothered to close them all16:01
* sidi is redoing the demographics first16:01
skellatAnd we've got release task signups done: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/VividVervet/ReleaseTaskSignup16:50
elfymissed that session16:55
sidihttp://goo.gl/forms/7sH3mf2XQs reworked a bit17:16
GridCubesidi: you want answers right now?17:21
elfysidi: bit of a gap between it can take up to 10 seconds and over a minute ... 17:21
sidiGridCube, no no im just fleshing out the survey17:21
sidiGridCube, i want to expose it to users later on17:22
sidielfy, ah yes true17:22
sidiforgot one17:22
GridCubeok, that's why i asked17:22
sidielfy, tbh if its 10 or 50 in any case it's enough to make you "wait", but if its many minutes.... its enough to make you do something else17:22
sidiah i need to rephrase it indeed17:22
elfyyea - I feel ready to do things within a couple of seconds but end up waiting for it to catch up with me :)17:24
sidielfy, GridCube actually if you do take the survey now it might help finding other bugs17:24
sidielfy, so the question is ambiguous17:24
sidii mean to convey "how long before you do something useful"17:24
elfyperhaps "How quickly do you feel comfortable to start working/doing things after you've logged in? " should be more like "How soon are you able to start working/doing things after you've logged in"17:25
elfywhich I assume is *what* this is really about17:26
sidii hope the comment clarifies17:27
elfyit does - but I read headlines :)17:27
elfyyou might want to note where appropriate that multiple choices works 17:27
elfysidi: who's going to see this draft?17:33
sidielfy, can you tell me more about multiple choices? do you mean i should leave more options sometimes?17:34
sidielfy, you guys, the xfce-dev channel, essentially17:34
drcJust for what it's worth, I would/did never finish this survey... 1) Some of the questions made no sense or appeared to contradict the previous question, 2) There are at least 3 different "forms" of questions (multiple choice, dropdown and fill in the blank) (never a good idea in surveys), 3) You ask the user to remove/add an application as part of a "survey" (maybe as the last item in the survey, and NOT required), 4) You ask the user to verify 17:34
drcseveral something with no way to verify it (that I could see) and 5) Some questions are required, with no way for the user to know that until s/he tries to "continue". 17:34
sidiim not sure which other Xfce dev communities are active17:34
elfysidi: the multiple choices ones - I just found by chance17:34
sididrc, thanks17:35
sidielfy, i think google forms is quite... uuh limiting17:35
sidimight need to roll this somewhere else. :/17:36
elfymaybe so - would just take a comment to make people aware something is multiple choice17:36
drcIt's HARD to develop a good survey.17:36
elfydrc: +1 to that17:36
GridCubesent sidi 17:37
sidiThanks everyone i'll keep drafting and remove whatever is superflous17:37
sidiknome, is it reasonable/acceptable to host some survey CVS on shimmerproject's domain?17:38
knomesidi, yeah17:55
pleia2lmk if you need anything from me, packing for vacation now (and actually ON vacation for a week)17:56
pleia2we do have other social media admins for all resources, I'll doublecheck the wiki to make sure it's up to date17:56
sidipleia2, great to know, enjoy your holidays!17:57
sidiknome, i'll look up what's good then. it might be useful to have our own stuff. I think i'll separate task from survey, and design a few more tasks. not sure how to bring about people to try tasks though17:58
sidibasically my view of design is that i need to observe user experiences much more than hypothetical projections of uses17:59
sidiproblem is it doesnt involve the same resources at all17:59
sidiand there arent many precedents of usability studies in the FOSS community by and large17:59
pleia2ok yeah, so this is accurate: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Marketing/WebPresence17:59
pleia2can grab holstein if you need something on facebook, ochosi if you need something on g+18:00
sidithanks :-)18:00
pleia2sidi: and thanks :) this vacation is long due18:00
ali1234sidi: what information do you want from this survey, and why?18:08
sidiali1234, i want to understand if people understand/find logical the separation between session and autostart apps18:08
ali1234personally i think the session restore feature should just die. it doesn't and cannot ever work like the way it does on android18:08
sidiand i want to know if they understand what the "save session" checkbox actually does on session logout18:08
sidiand if they want another mechanism for session resumption18:09
ali1234i think the separation is completely logical, because one is an important feature, the other is broken, badly implemented and confusing and used by nobody18:09
sidiali1234, it needs not be broken, but the UI is wrong i think18:09
sidiit makes no sense to save a session for it to replay permanently18:09
ali1234no, it is broken. we can't resume apps in the state they closed down18:09
sidiah that'll probably get fixed in many years as a side effect of sandboxing :P18:10
ali1234so let's remove the feature entirely until then?18:10
sidiyeah sounds good to me18:10
sidiali1234, still some apps handle resuming18:10
sidilike browsers18:10
sidior music players18:10
ali1234yeah but nobody knows which ones18:10
siditrue that18:10
sidii think users should be let to add "autostart/session" apps in the settings UI18:11
ali1234and they generally handle it badly, differently, and in the most annoying way possible18:11
sidibut the logout checkbox should die18:11
ali1234didn't we already remove it from xubuntu?18:11
sidii also think the session UI needs to be merged with autostart but i want user opinion first18:11
sidiali1234, oh did you?18:11
ali1234i think so18:11
sidiali1234, im on arch sorry :P18:11
knomei have it atm18:11
ali1234i see the logout so rarely i can't even remember18:11
ali1234it was definitely discussed18:11
knomebut i don't know if it's removed from new installations18:11
knomeyes, it was18:11
sidithats why we're not entitled to changing things without surveying18:12
ali1234i still have it too :(18:12
sidialso developing a user-centered approach on easy topics cannot hurt18:12
ali123414.04 fresh install18:12
ali1234fair enough18:12
ali1234what i definitely don't want to see is session and autostart merged18:12
ali1234the autostart UI is good, the session one is terrible18:12
ali1234plus they are different features18:13
ali1234session restore doesn't even need a UI18:13
ali1234the entire desktop is the UI18:13
sidiali1234, im curious if users even know how to find the autostart ui18:14
sidialso i think both UIs need improving18:15
sidii like the "if running" option of session18:15
sidii'd like "always / if running / never" instead of just "always / never"18:15
GridCubeif you use the action buttons in the panel, and make it so it "shut down"s only, no session logout manager, it doesnt ask you if you want to save session, it remembers what you chossed on the session logout manager18:15
sidialso the notion of priority is somewhat useful to end users18:15
sidi(for some end users at least)18:16
sidiah i need to refine that survey very much18:16
sidimaybe interviews would be better18:16
brainwashmaybe you could learn something from other desktop environments18:17
ali1234sidi: well, that's not a problem of session, that's a problem of UI design18:18
ali1234sidi: i understand the autostart UI, i don't understand the session UI at all18:18
sidiali1234, the UI design is only a reflection of what we want our users to be able to do :-P18:19
ali1234as for priority, there was a bug report when someone wanted dependencies in autostart so they could make sure they start in the right order...18:19
ali1234personally i think we should kill xfce4-session asap and just use systemd18:21
ali1234i realise that will make people unhappy18:21
ali1234but... they can maintain xfce4-session if they want18:21
knomeas if18:21
ali1234i;m surprised there's no UDS session on systemd actually18:22
ali1234is it really just that simple that it just works already?18:22
ali1234one thing that particularly bugs me is that things like xfsettingsd are started using the session restore functionality18:23
brainwashwhy shouldn't it work? :)18:23
ali1234if xfsettingsd crashes and you tick "restore session on login" - now you will never see xfsettingsd ever again18:23
ali1234or at least that is how it used to work18:23
ali1234that is dumb18:23
sididependencies was a bit crazy18:23
ali1234autostart should be used for things that always start regardless18:23
brainwashthere is an autostart launcher for xfsettingsd18:23
ali1234i'm sure there is, but it is in the session tab as well18:24
ali1234as is power manager18:24
sidiali1234, there is a very good XDG spec for how things should start in userspace18:24
sidiafaik xfce can handle that spec18:24
ali1234yes, xdg-autostart18:24
brainwashyes, the autostart launcher is the fallback solution I'd guess18:24
sidiit should put its own things in there if it wants to keep allowing xfce4-session/xfwm without the reste of Xfce DE items18:24
ali1234the autostart launcher *is* xdg-autostart18:24
sidii think the autostart code should be extended to deal with priorities, as a priority number is much simpler to implement than actual dependencies18:25
sidithat covers all the needs of OEM integrators like you guys18:25
sidiand advanced users can still tinker about18:25
ali1234that will require extending the xdg-autostart spec to support dependencies18:25
sidioh right18:25
ali1234someone came up with some ideas how to do that18:25
sidiwell then maybe systemd yes18:25
sidithat's more sensical18:25
sidiand a UI to systemd18:25
ali1234let me see if i can find the thread or bug reports18:26
sidiali1234, yeah i had commented on this i think18:26
sidiali1234, eventually systemd will probably eat xdg-autostart alive18:26
ali1234systemd unit files aren't limited like .desktop files18:26
sidiright now the duplication is just too obvious and embarassing18:26
ali1234they can have dependencies18:26
sidiali1234, hopefully from the survey i can get a good sketch of what we want to support and what the UI(s) should look like18:27
sidithen we can verify if systemd does the job and talk about it18:27
sidibut Xfce is more than just Linux sadly this means systemd is only one implementation18:27
sidiso supporting xdg-autostart would be necessary18:27
sidior at least keeping the current codebase alive18:27
ali1234yeah, that it true18:27
sidibut maybe removing its UI18:27
sidifirst things first18:28
sidiunderstanding whats good18:28
ali1234however note the difference between init pid 1 and session management18:28
sidithen talking about making it happen18:28
knomesilly steve18:28
ali1234systemd does both but it doesn't HAVE to do both18:28
ali1234the same as with upstart18:28
sidiali1234, it's hard to tell the BSD people to build and run systemd for only some of its features as a core Xfce dependency18:28
sidiand its also hard to make systemd do less than it desires to, as far as i understand18:29
ali1234yes, systemd is not perfect. i with they would split it up properly18:29
sidithere probably are reasons why they dont18:29
ali1234otoh it isn't as bad as people think18:29
sidireasons beyond the FUD18:29
ali1234no, i don't think there are18:29
ali1234the stated reasons are "we want change the code fast and not support legacy versions"18:29
ali1234which is understandable, but terrible for users18:30
sidiah well18:30
sidimy contribution to Linux is too insignificant for me to understand what's the best on the long term18:30
ali1234i don't have any idea either18:30
ali1234nobody has any idea what they are doing18:31
ali1234it took me a long time to realise this, but it is true18:31
sidiLinux is too big18:34
sidihas too many types of users18:34
sidiit takes thousands of people years of work to make significant changes to an OS18:34
sidispeculative experimentation is necessary sometimes, i think18:34
ali1234i'm all for asking the users what they want. not sure how good the answer could ever be, but that's not really the point18:50
ali1234ochosi, bluesabre: i may have signed us up for some extra work...20:33
ali1234http://pad.ubuntu.com/uos-1411-ubuntu-mate-remix - ubuntu mate is using lightdm-gtk-greeter and indicators, and they have some patches for both...20:34
elfylooked to me like you'd signed yourself up :D20:34
ali1234for the indicator stuff yes :)20:34
elfygood lord 20:35
elfyXubuntu is missing Indicators in Ubquity. WIll contact ali1234 and elfy20:35
elfyhe'll soon realise the futility in that then :p20:35
skellatali1234: Only picking up 1 work item isn't bad.  I've racked up 7-8 so far during UOS1411.20:40
ali1234hmm what's this about lightdm-gtk-greeter dropping gtk2 support?20:41
ali1234will that affect us?20:41
skellatI haven't the foggiest clue20:42
ali1234let's hope not anyway20:42
* skellat heads outside to start shoveling snow from the driveway as it is looking treacherous20:42
ali1234looks like we already use the gtk3 version20:45
brainwashsince 13.10 I think20:50
elfyjjfrv8: looking at bug 1391636 - the tracker testcase doesn't match the code at launchpad, looks like this has already been fixed. Just need another pair of eyes on it if you've time. 21:07
ubottubug 1391636 in Ubuntu Manual Tests "1583 Errors in testcase" [Medium,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/139163621:07
slickymasterelfy, how come can that happen? The only way it could happen is if the tracker isn't updated after a merging in the main branch21:30
=== GridCube_ is now known as GridCube
bluesabreali1234: yeah, we dropped gtk2 support from lightdm-gtk-greeter, does not affect us.  Dropping gtk2 let us streamline a lot of code and drop hackiness23:39
bluesabrepatches are welcome, I might have missed them23:40
