From Tue Mar 13 18:58:25 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: Delivered-To: Received: from ( []) by (Postfix) with SMTP id D08359715 for ; Tue, 13 Mar 2012 18:58:25 +0000 (UTC) Received: (qmail 42947 invoked by uid 500); 13 Mar 2012 18:58:25 -0000 Delivered-To: Received: (qmail 42871 invoked by uid 500); 13 Mar 2012 18:58:25 -0000 Mailing-List: contact; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Post: List-Id: Reply-To: Delivered-To: mailing list Received: (qmail 42854 invoked by uid 99); 13 Mar 2012 18:58:25 -0000 Received: from (HELO ( by (qpsmtpd/0.29) with ESMTP; Tue, 13 Mar 2012 18:58:25 +0000 X-ASF-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.7 required=5.0 tests=SPF_NEUTRAL X-Spam-Check-By: Received-SPF: neutral ( local policy) Received: from [] (HELO ( by (qpsmtpd/0.29) with ESMTP; Tue, 13 Mar 2012 18:58:18 +0000 Received: from [] ( []) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id EC72614503; Tue, 13 Mar 2012 19:58:38 +0100 (CET) Subject: Re: Seeking CouchDB guidance Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1257) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 From: Jan Lehnardt In-Reply-To: <> Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2012 19:57:56 +0100 Cc: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <> To: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1257) X-Virus-Checked: Checked by ClamAV on Thanks Shane, This is very helpful! I'll reply in more detail inline. I just want to make sure to note that = I'm am wearing two hats in this matter, my Apache CouchDB PMC Chair hat = and my Couchbase co-founder hat. I'll denote when I'm speaking for which = accordingly. On Mar 13, 2012, at 04:50 , Shane Curcuru wrote: > (Apologies for coming late to this thread; note I'm not on dev@) > (cc: trademarks@ for FYI) >=20 > On 2012-02-22 6:02 PM, Noah Slater wrote: >> Hello, >>=20 >> I am reaching out to you in response to this thread on the CouchDB = dev list: >>=20 >> > ... >=20 > Thanks for the comments and focus on the thread; they are very = helpful. I've found that trademarks law often seems quite non-intuitive = to programmers. We typically see things in binary: it compiles or = doesn't; it's faster or it's slower. Trademarks are fundamentally about = ensuring that an informed consumer understands where their products are = coming from based on the brand name of the product. Thus, the = perception of users - especially new ones to this territory - are = important to consider. >=20 > As I understand it, fundamentally we had Apache CouchDB first, and = then it's quick popularity bred several other companies and software = products with names including the word "Couch" in them. The fact that = both a number of CouchDB committers and some normal end-users of CouchDB = are expressing confusion over some Couchbase software products means = that this is an issue we should seek to address, and is one that I hope = Couchbase will actively help to address to prevent confusion as to the = source of Apache CouchDB software. [Couchbase hat]: We are committed to help ensure that Apache CouchDB is = a thriving success from the C-level down. To action behind words, we are = helping to address the trademark concerns the best we can. > I have a number of general comments for the PMC: >=20 > - The simplest and most direct step to take is to better tell our own = story of what Apache CouchDB is and how it can help new consumers run = their servers / data /business better, easier, and faster than other = products. >=20 > One key item would be improving the couchdb.a.o website, in particular = so that it better describes what CouchDB is and how to use it to = *newcomers* to the technology. Separately, I bet it would be helpful = for committers (and others) to blog and post about CouchDB individually, = both to explain why CouchDB is so great, and also to explain that = there's only one Apache CouchDB, and all the other Couches are less (or = more) related to us, the first Couch-named No-SQL db. [Apache CouchDB hat]: That's very good advice. For a while now I longed = for a page that explains the CouchDB ecosystem in a nutshell. I have = personally not gotten to it, but I'd love to see a page that is a brief = introduction into all the players that make up the greater CouchDB = ecosystem with Apache CouchDB at its centre. It could be as simple as = starting with a list on our wiki. > - The number and detail of comments from both committers and users = about "which Couch is which" and "How is Couchbase related to CouchDB" = say to me that there is a branding issue here - hopefully one that we = can work through amicably and with assistance from Couchbase. >=20 > To be frank, it's unlikely that we could prevent all other = organizations from using "Couch" in their names. However it is possible = to take actions to ensure that other organizations do not confuse = informed consumers as to the true source of Apache CouchDB software. [Couchbase hat]: Again, we're happy to do our part. > - When dealing with user confusion by a third party or even potential = trademark infringements by a third party, the first step is to figure = out what the PMC would like to see happen (you're doing this), and then = to ask nicely (usually in private, to allow people to save face if they = want to) the third party to make some changes. >=20 > In this case, think that it's probably unrealistic to ask Couchbase to = completely rebrand themselves. There are several Couch-something = products out there, and it certainly seems (I'm guessing, I don't know) = that they're as attached to their overall name as we are to the CouchDB = name. >=20 > It is realistic - and we should! - ask them to respect our trademarks. = They can do this by being diligent at following our formal trademark = policy, especially by explicitly attributing our marks on any pages or = materials where they have products that are using similar names or = descriptions. >=20 > For example, it would be appropriate in this case to ask that they = attribute our CouchDB mark on their Couchbase server web pages, like = this one: >=20 > >=20 > Similarly, given the history in this case, it would be realistic to = ask them to go further, and include explanatory text in various places = on their website that explain what CouchDB is, that it comes from = Apache, and that their product is not related to CouchDB (either in = technical compatibility, or in terms of governance/provenance). >=20 > The web page they put up at is an = excellent start to this, and is very much appreciated - thanks! >=20 > However it would be realistic - especially in the short term - to ask = for some other explicit mentions of what CouchDB is in some places on = their website that are closer to their actual Couchbase-named product = pages. I.e. it would be great if they'd put a small one-paragraph = "Couchbase SuperThing And Apache CouchDB - to great (but separate) = things...", perhaps with a link to their /couchbdb page. >=20 > Trademarks are about preventing user confusion over the source of = products (in these cases, primarily software downloads). Especially = given that the ASF is a community-oriented non-profit, there are plenty = of ways that third parties can do an aggressive job of marketing their = own product(s), while still providing plenty of credit and links back to = Apache project pages, recognizing the source (and volunteer effort by = all our committers) of the underlying Apache software. [Couchbase hat]: We just had a meeting about this and we'll have more = changes to our website to help eradicate confusion. It is not in our = interest to be confused with Apache CouchDB much in the same way that it = is not in Apache CouchDB's interest to be confused with Couchbase. We = agree that it is entirely realistic to expect that we respect the Apache = CouchDB trademark and that we do our part to show that respect on our = website and other publications. [Couchbase hat]: I'll follow up with a report on changes that we made to = our website when they are implemented. Please allow a number of days. If = the PMC agrees, I'll use this thread instead of the private@ mailing = list to send the update. If the PMC prefers, I can take it to private@ = directly, though. If the PMC has additional requests for us, please get = in touch privately at > - The PMC should also update the couchdb.a.o website to ensure we're = properly attributing our own marks. Please update the trademark = attribution in the footer to include: >=20 > Apache CouchDB, CouchDB, Apache and the CouchDB logo are trademarks of = the Apache Software Foundation. >=20 > See: [Apache CouchDB hat]: The footer currently says: '=93Apache CouchDB=94 = and the Project logo are trademarks of the Apache Software Foundation =97 = Copyright =A9 2008=962011 The Apache Software Foundation' Aside from the = year that we should definitely fix, we only need to add "CouchDB" to the = list, is that correct? Thanks again Shane! I trust we can drive that to a amicable conclusion = now. Cheers Jan --=20