Justice for Men and Boys - Isn't this exactly why we need feminism

(1000 Posts)
wickeddevil Sat 30-Mar-13 22:27:42

Heard Justice for Men and Boys Founder Mike Buccanan on Womens Hour earlier today complaining that men pay 72% of all income tax.
Well isn't that because they have more income?
And instead of complaining about the feminist agenda doesn't it demonstrate why we need it?

Welovegrapes Sat 30-Mar-13 22:30:16

I loved the labour mp's question to him - asking what had happened in his personal life to make this his viewpoint.

What about his suggestion of compulsory paternity tests?!

Pan Sat 30-Mar-13 22:40:33

I heard all of this on Womans Hour....the irony of having such a programme in the topic discussed seemed to have been lost on both of them, or at least it was never mentioned.
The tax issue was a deeply embarrasing own-goal from the start ( as was pointed out).

Laddio wasn't the..<ahem> best protaganist here, but the level of male suicides, poor schooling outcomes, outcomes in civil courts re access, and the propensity to violence are BIG topics. Just not best addressed by a numpty like laddio.
<fwiw, male posting this>

wickeddevil Sat 30-Mar-13 22:43:48

Oh yes I loved that question too. Wonder what did happen. As for compulsory paternity tests - can't even begin to comment...

Pan Sat 30-Mar-13 22:45:43

does it need feminism to correct it? Not so sure.

Sunnywithshowers Sat 30-Mar-13 23:34:04

72% of all income tax? Really?

CogitoErgoSometimes Mon 01-Apr-13 17:33:33

I think that there were some interesting points raised in the discussion that do merit attention. The topic of some fathers post-divorce having difficulty accessing their children, for example, is a hardy perennial. But the organisation seemed to be looking at everything down the wrong end of the telescope and the spokesman sounded very nervous and bitter - the kind of man that writes to the local paper in green scratchy biro. That assumption that women are tricking men to bring up other people's children on a wholesale level was pretty bizarre all by itself.

MikeBuchanan Mon 01-Apr-13 17:39:08


ThingummyBob Mon 01-Apr-13 17:47:04


CogitoErgoSometimes Mon 01-Apr-13 18:25:19

Didn't hear any personal attacks or shaming tactics on the programme. It was a perfectly reasonable & calm discussion and you managed to come across as an idiot all by yourself...

Pan Mon 01-Apr-13 19:48:14

Oh that was you? There didn't appear to be any personal attacks on the show - well other than a good deal of gentle mocking, which frankly you set yourself up for from the off re the tax take issue.

fwiw I'm sure the level of female-on-male DV is quite under-reported, but the simple stats do not reveal the repeated nature, the seriousness of the assaults and the impacts of male on female assaults have on children.
Also fwiw, I have come across a lot of DVers, and victims. When perps describe their upbringings, they never ever recall mum knocking ten kinds of poo out of dad. Anecdotal I know but still has a confounding effect...

< in any event I was referring to any male violence, usually against other men, and as I indicated against themselves all to often>

and I'm a man Pan with that Y chrome thing going on.

MikeBuchanan Mon 01-Apr-13 20:12:44


Hassled Mon 01-Apr-13 20:17:48

Mike - your Google Alert must be working overtime.

You haven't replied to wickeddevil. Isn't the issue not that men pay more tax than women, but that men earn so much more than women to warrant paying more tax?

MikeBuchanan Mon 01-Apr-13 20:35:06

Hassled, thank you. I honestly don't know what a 'Google alert' is, and have no interest in finding out. As I said in my first post in this discussion stream, I was alerted by one of our party's supporters, Lavinia. She's a generous donor too, and in common with many of our supporters she's a mother of boys and sees their futures may be blighted in a feminised education system which ensures that for every two young men who reach university, three young women do.

Men collectively pay far more tax than women for a variety of reasons. Off the top of my head:

1. From the moment they leave f/t education (and right up to retirement age) men are more likely than women to be in paid employment, and far less likely than women to engage in p/t work.

2. Men are more likely than women to do the (mentally and physicaly) tough and stressful jobs which attract a pay premium due to supply/demand. They are as a result more likely than women to be affected by 'progressive' taxation rates.

3. Men are FAR more likely than women to enter dangerous lines of work. Even today men account for 95% of work-related deaths.

Mike Buchanan

Pan Mon 01-Apr-13 20:36:40

Mike, your presentations are really flawed and with holes the size of an ocean. As well as DV, I also know a lot about child sex abuse, having been concerned with it for decades. At any one time there are about 3,300 men in prison for sex offences (of all types). You will also find about 50 women in prison for those offences (rape obv being excluded). I proportion of those will be for 'aiding and abetting' or 'procuring' with/for a male. Eliot talks of 75% being women acting alone. Utter utter tripe, in the reality of female sexual offending.

The idea that "women tend to use items, broom handles and bottles" etc is so far from reality it sinks Eliot's credibility for anything else she has to say, and indicates the quality of 'advocate' you rely on.

There ARE some crucial issues that affect male well-being, referred to above, but your 'canvas' misses most of them, and appears to rely on misinformation about the ones you do focus on. I'm afraid you won't be getting my vote.

Pan Mon 01-Apr-13 21:08:22

I think overall, you could do with 'less blaming women' and more about helping to educate men about how to better feel, think, and behave, for their benefit and that of those around them. <it's one of the aspects of why I don't self-identify as a feminist>
Otherwise you could easily just come across as a woman hating blamer.

Hassled Mon 01-Apr-13 21:19:51

Mike - assuming your statistics are accurate re tax (I have no way of knowing), then yes, there are clearly inequalities in society. Who do you think suffers the most from those inequalities? Which gender do you think is materially the most badly affected by those inequalities?

MikeBuchanan Mon 01-Apr-13 21:38:41


Pan Mon 01-Apr-13 21:42:59

no Mike, I am certainly NOT saying that men should act more like women. (you haven't been around Mumsnet much have you?grin). I'd suggest that they behave the better part of themselves - nothing to do with female standards of behaviour.

Pan Mon 01-Apr-13 21:47:56

Mike are you seriously asking 'how are women' as a group 'facing disadvantage in 2013'. Just to be clear.

Blistory Mon 01-Apr-13 21:48:43

One disadvantage ? Just one ? How about the fact that 1 in 4 women are likely to be raped ?

MikeBuchanan Mon 01-Apr-13 22:04:07


Pan Mon 01-Apr-13 22:06:10

Well there's numerous-to-the-power-of-numerous examples.
But I'm doubting you wish to know about or acknowledge any of them at all.
In order to make the world a nicer place, look at the male behaviour patterns.
Good evening.

Pan Mon 01-Apr-13 22:07:38

tbh Mike, I've looked at your 'evidence sources' and they are pretty flimsy at best.

Blistory Mon 01-Apr-13 22:12:53

It really doesn't matter what anyone posts as you're simply going to pull out your own facts and statistics. Let's use anecdotes then. There's a lengthy thread on here in AIBU which details the low level physical and verbal abuse that women face every day . I'd link to it but I can't be arsed putting any effort in to it for you given that you're not actually interested in anything than your own point of view.

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