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RE: Before you all start..
By Merry on 4/4/2007 6:13:28 AM , Rating: 3
Look, I'm never going to change your opinion on the EU, but I feel you should, before completely writing it off as some exercise in 'Socialist central planning', go and actually do a little bit of research into what the EU is and what it does. You also overestimate the EUs power as a central governing body. As I have said before,I actually study the EU as part of my course and you'd be surprised as to what it actually achieves. You may also be surprised as to how the US actually shaped the EEC too.

Also, your example of price discrimination with cinemas misses the point and is entirely different to Apples case. Your point regarding the EU budget is also a case of stating the obvious. There are clear tensions in the EU regarding the budget, mainly due to the 2004 enlargement.

RE: Before you all start..
By Ringold on 4/4/2007 3:13:42 PM , Rating: 2
I don't what part of which it is you study, but I study it's economy as well. I'm sure the EU does nice cute things in various realms of human life, ie, good diplomacy (it sure got angry with Iran this past week!) and peacekeeping (A+ performance in Darfur, and those Belgian troops in Kosovo were real heros, eh?). But economic success it absolutely is not.

The single market *does* exert a good amount of control over it's participants economies. Switzerland, for example, has had to adopt almost the full set of rules as a full EU state member (and even has to contribute to the budget) in order to participate in the single market. Additionally, with the unified currency, the monetary policy applies to them all whether they like it or not.

The term socialism I use, I think, correctly, as the government in the EU treats business in general as a second-class citizen. It regulates it, it tells it how to operate, what it can and can not do in a wide variety of instances, it taxes them heavily when it befits them and willingly disregards its property rights when voters decide they don't like something. Thats just the business operation side; on the employee side, they regulate hours worked and implement much more restrictive (on business) labor laws that effective legislate away the concept of "right to work". I don't know how many businessmen from France have complained that the very popular culture there looks upon successful businessmen as criminals, and with the work-police gustappo going around checking to make sure nobody worked 1 minute past their 35hr cap, the system treats management in the same way as car thiefs and other felons.

Again, that IS socialism, that IS central planning; the government in Europe (not just the EU itself but individual states as well) controls every detail it can manage to, likely with the belief that more government is preferable to less.

The alternative would be free markets operating without government intervention except in cases of market failures (which almost never happen) and to correct externalities (through licenses or limited, specific taxation to correct for infringed property rights or the damage to the public property). Europe comes no where close; most recent example is the light bulb. The communist/fascist approach is to ban socially unacceptable things, like dancing in Taliban-controlled Afghanistan. The free-market approach is to devise a carbon tax so that people pay to use inefficient technology. You see which route the EU took.

Some places, like the UK with light labor laws or Germany that has kept its unit labor costs down, manage to avoid some economic problems. Most of Europe, unfortunately, has no saving grace to make up for its problems like Germany and the UK have, and that's reflected in precisely what economic theory predicts for socialist economies; high unemployment, low growth.

As an aside, I don't write off the EU; men like Sarkozy understand the problems, and hope to fix it (if he is elected). In fact, most politicians know precisely what they need to do, they just don't know how to get re-elected again if they were to do it.

I've been stating facts and events right out of the news, so I'd like to see how you could see the EU in a radically different light other than failure with only somewhat bright hopes for a better future (but still a current-day failure).

RE: Before you all start..
By Merry on 4/5/2007 8:07:41 AM , Rating: 2
Without wanting this to sound like a personal attack, be honest. You don't have an economics degree, judging by nearly all of your posts I've seen on here. You don't even understand the concept of socialism and you sure as hell don't understand the economy of the EU. (incidentally I do also do economics as part of my course, at a fairly basic level, mind)

I've read your post and, unfortunately it is factually incorrect in the main and has nothing to do with the subject in hand, for that reason I'm not going to bother addressing the points you made, as, in your own words I'd be 'feeding the troll'.

RE: Before you all start..
By geddarkstorm on 4/6/2007 5:53:05 PM , Rating: 2
Actually, he hasn't shown much of a lack of understanding in socialism or economics as far as I've seen, and yes, I've taken courses in economics, and especially in microeconomics (meaning the economy within a country or given region).

Let us remember, the EU is not a country but a union of countries. Each individual nation has it's own laws, constitution equivilant, and leadership. The EU attempts to bridge all the different laws, currancies, and practices to make it a more uniform and compatible whole (i.e. you can use the Euro anywhere in any EU nation and don't have to bother with constantly exchanging your currancy).

With that said, for the EU to demand of a company that it cannot engage in different business practices with different, soveriegn, independent nations, is a bit socialistic in nature. Each country has its own business laws, irregardless of the EU!, and it's own taxes, so demanding absolutely identical business practices by any company in all EU members is rather ludicris.

Of course, I have not studied how the different companies based in say France as treated by the EU on their pricing of products that they sell in France verses those they sell in Norway (subtracting out distribution costs and such), but I doubt the EU demands such fidelity elsewhere. That does not mean what it's doing is anti-American! But, it seems a reflection of a "this is the internet, no countries or regions exist on it, the internet is it's own self contained location" mentality, and a case of the EU trying to overstep its bounds of power.

In summery, each country must be tailored to price wise by a company for effective business (likewise a company tailors its practices differently in every state in the United States due to different State based laws and taxes!), so it seems the EU is very wrong in this matter from a rational and economic standpoint (unless it is true that the internet modifies these facts and negates them, then the EU is right and Apple is entirely wrong for discrimination).


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