Greece’s political crisis

Fiddling while Athens burns

The president gives up and calls a new election—but it may yet again fail to yield a conclusive result

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Readers' comments



I can never understand people who vote for populists. Any country has about 20% of these but why doesn't a larger part of the other 80% THINK?

mvr36 in reply to Dapples

If you think you would vote Syriza, who stand for the peoples interest. If you are of herd mentality, you vote for pro-banker/anti-people parties like New Democracy (ie New Bankstergangsterism) and PASOK (ie People Pay Bankers Profit Party).

Only an enemy of democracy and a friend of the banker crooks who rob us blind would vote for ND or PASOK.


Could not the ECB help Greeks make a better informed choice at the June elections by openly directing Greek banks to prepare their internal systems for a new Greek electronic currency, to be used in parallel with the Euro (with a floating exchange rate), which may give the message that Euro exit is for real and take away the incentive for Greeks to gamble on Eurozone forgiveness re bail-out conditions?


We must be missing something big here.

Under the terms agreed and signed, Greece has the chance to get EUR 9,000 worth of debt per inhabitant forgiven. In addition, they stand to get access to some 15,000 EUR per head of fresh funding. To access these goodies, they are asked to stick to an austerity program that will bring the deficit down quickly, but gradually.

As an alternative, they stand to get no debt forgiveness at all, no fresh funding, and an ejection from the credit markets that will force them to bring the deficit to zero instantly.

And yet they seem ready to vote for precisely such alternative. How on earth can it be? What is it that we are missing?

As a bystander, I can't help thinking that Greeks may just be blinded by their desire to kick the pants of their old-establishment politicians. The trouble is that all the new faces they end up voting for, happen to campaign against the agreement.

As a fellow European, I can only hope that Greek voters will be wise enough in the upcoming election to put aside their (however entirely understandable) rage for a moment, and realize what they are about to get themselves into.

Make no mistake, the choice is clear. On June 18th Greece will either be with the heart of Europe, or else merely somewhere in the vicinity of Syria.

Tomas Marny in reply to Pointout

You miss the indebtedness vicious circle: most of the new loans are used for repaying the old ones (and flow out of Greece anyway), that's why the general public in Greece feel like being target of scolding for at least two years now without any tangible improvement of their situation. That's why they vote for parties that promise to opt out of the imposed austerity measures.

Thus, the Greek and EU politicians and economists should meet and seriously consider whether there is a light at the end of the tunnel by applying the agreed measures, privatization and some additional reforms because the alternative solution - default, taking control over the monetary policy (introducing a separate currency) and privatization might lead to a faster and a more stable solution without need of additional loans and start of the growth. But obviously loss of trust might also lead to fear from investing there and a kind of isolation that prevents the necessary growth. So all pros and cons of various solutions should be carefully considered.

I understand that the article is critical to the fact that now such analyses are subjects of expert discourse in Greece.

mvr36 in reply to Pointout

As a Dutchman, I hope for an anti-Euro vote in june, because we too would like to get rid of the wealth-destroying Euro. I hardly know anyone enthusiastically in favor here in the southern reaches of Holland. Only the banksters and politicians and elites profited and now the people have to suffer to give the banker crooks more bonuses?

Greece, vote against austerity and against the banker stooges from ND and PASOK!

And then, default on your entire debt. Who cares what currency it is denominated in if you don't pay it back? And of course, it would be wise to hang a few bankers as a warning to other would-be bankers who want to profit by robbing people.

Tomas Marny in reply to mvr36

I'm afraid that bankers would not be touched anyway. In fact, if Greece votes for default, it would surely increase yields of government bonds of other EU countries because the financial markets will include risk of default as realistic and require higher interests on coupons in case of the principal sum is not re-payed - thus Greek default would lead to necessity of either more austerity or more growth in the rest of EU.

mvr36 in reply to Pointout

Piling on more debt to service existing debt. Even with the socalled 'haircut' the debt is still higher than it was 3 years ago, and set to rise further with ECB and IMF crooks piling on more debt.

Greece should announce a full default and not pay anything back, nor make interest payments. This would free up considerable money in the budget. They could easily continue to pay wages and pensions if they ceased paying the ECB/IMF/banker scum.

Vash The Stampede in reply to Pointout

I'm a Greek citizen and I firmly believe that you don't have a clue about what are you talking about.

Most of the things you mention are outrageously unrealistic. If you want to understand what is really going on, you stop reading 'sponsored articles' and get the facts straight. It's not impossible anymore, with technology and all that. It just takes effort.

On June 18th, I firmly believe that my country will exit the Euro. And I firmly believe that European citizens owe us one for what we've been through, because our is not 'a case apart'. It's a model for the rest of you.

My problem is the 'justice estate'. The economy is just a side-effect. The economic problem is Greece are the taxes that corrupted business and politicians never paid.

As for the Greek exit: Do they - in Germany - even know how to do it? Because I don't know of any document describing a way.

We seriously, want out.

Asso Reta in reply to mvr36

As a dutchman you are deluded. if Greece collapse so will Holland.
Your savings will be gone. And your social system. I really don't look forward to see it, but I will have a big loud laugh in the face of BILD reading germans and similarly ill informed dutch when they will get what they hope for and will become poor as a result.
Ignorancee deserve no mercy.

mvr36 in reply to Asso Reta

We'll collapse if we stay in the Euro. We need to get out to save ourselves, or else its endless bailouts or endless fiscal transfers. And, envious of the size of our pension funds? We'll never hand them over to France, or Italy, or Spain, or Brussels apparatchiks. Our social system can survive easily if we cut ourselves loose from the Club Med loafers.

Fahrettin Tahir

The Greeks are an overemotional people who are greedy for other peoples' assets.

This attitude has over the time modern Greece exists led to many conflicts with Turkey, which the Greeks felt must give up what they covet. In most conflicts the Greeks had the support of the Western cluntries, who also felt Turks shoudl give up what Greeks want to have.

Now it is the West itself which is the victim of Greek greed. The Greeks have actually voted for parties which are convinced that Western Europe must continue to subsidize them with hundreds of billions, ad infinitum.

So please do what you preach, go ahead and pay, ad infinitum.

SeaFlea in reply to Fahrettin Tahir

When the Ottoman Empire was collapsing from within due to corrupt Sultans and with the help of the Young Turk Movement, the Western Powers of Europe got into position to carve up this Empire for themselves. It is they who blackballed the Greek King, accusing him of being pro German, who held up Constantinople/Istanbul as a carrot to the Greek people, supported Venizelos and his Great Idea and then once they had embarked on the war, cut the lines of supply to the Greek Army and the British turned their support to Ataturk because in fact, they wanted Constantinople and the Straits.
We could say that Turks are greedy for dividing up Cyprus and taking the northern portion but that would be silly rhetoric rather in the line of Mr. Tsipras who, by the way, is not at all charismatic but purely young, is not a member of either Pasok or ND the parties that have run the country for rather too long and therefore not "tainted", and promises demagogically many impossible things to the citizenry.
The world over humanity yearns for a better life, resents being lectured to and deprived of what they have been told is their right and some humans are more excitable than others. Mediterraneans are definitely more so while norther Europeans are less so. They are different. That is all. Neither is better or worse than the other. Let us leave prejudice, bitterness and hype out of this major problem if we wish to find a workable solution.
Europe is, unfortunately, a very socialised Continent. No country anywhere can afford such a degree of social welfare without, sooner or later, having to face up to financial difficulties.
Since we wish the Greek people to face facts as they truly are, then we must ALL do so.

Fahrettin Tahir in reply to SeaFlea

There are two idelogical points in your argumentation.

One the Ottoman empire did not collapse. it was broken by the combined power of Russia, Britain and France in 100 years of warfare. To get her assets.

The Greeks had their chance of annecting Western Anatolia. In 1920 the Turkish people were war weary and would have accepted Greek rule. The Greeks lost that chance by behaving like the Nazis in Russia. Another case where the invaders lost a war by mistreating the people. One and a half million Turks died. You are being unrealistic by claiming the allies had failed to give them the support they were owed. This is the same line of thought which today demands that Northern Europeans have a duty to give the Greeks all the money they need.

Two Europe can afford her social systems, for ever. At least Northern Europe populated by disciplined and hard working people can.

The status of Cyprus is defined in the still valid treaties of London and Zurich. Turks are not going to give that away.

The Ottoman empire collapsed. You just don't want to accept it. Cyprus was invaded by your country but you don't want to accept that either.
In 1920 the Greek population voted for the *end* of the war. That's why Venizelos was ousted, because of the war he wanted to do. However since Greece was - apparently - winning, the new government wanted a 'piece of victory', something to be 'remembered' for, so they opted for continuation of the war which ended in a bloodshed, because the UK changed partner overnight.
Anyway, I'm Greek I really don't care what happened 100 years ago. I really don't, although I have direct ancestors that got eradicated from Smirna.
I believe that Greek, Turks and Cypriot people can live all together in piece and harmony as long as their political elites don't play silly games on their back. The people never had problems with each other.


Greece is not as improtant in Turkey as Turkey is in Greece.
It is, as you say, Greek politicians who want to gain popularity by inciting Greeks to a victorious war against Turkey.

Turkey only reacts to such aggressions.

Stop such behaviour and we can be wonderful neighbors.

GeneralSherman in reply to SeaFlea

SeaFlea, "turned their support to Ataturk"? Is that what you tell yourself. Have you read Curzon and Lloyd George at the time? No world leader could get away with the anti-Turkish racist trash they were spouting at the time. The British wanted Istanbul (not Constantinope) and the Straits? Newsflah: they already had them.

So not doing anything to help the Turks is the same as doing all the fighting for the Greeks and arming them like the English had?

Fahrettin Tahir, well said.

The English failed the give greece aid? Really? That's the funniest thing I ever did. Oh what do you call doing all the fighting for them, arming them, and occupying Istanbul for them? Not to mention they were doing fighting for the Armenians and Russian in the East. And there are telegraphs from the period that reveal they were instigating kurdish separatist terrorists.

There was this great article in the New York Times archive which you now have to pay for where Lloyd George was b.itching about the Turks tearing up the Treaty of Sevres and Parliament telling him to shut up and that they're tired of war.

GeneralSherman in reply to mvr36

mvrs75, your comment proves Fahrettin Tahir correct and demonstrates why the greeks aren't what these Europeans imagine them to be. They're just lazy Ethiopians with a poor grasp of history too.

There is no such thing as "kurdistan" nor has there ever been nor will there ever be. Please try to prove overwise. I warn you I've smacked many Grik on the internet regarding this and they've all ran away with bruised bottoms but with a little more knowledge of history. Don't start what you can't finish...

As for armenian propaganda, Bernard Lewis, Cleveland E. Dodge Professor Emeritus of Near Eastern Studies at Princeton University on C-SPAN at the National Press Club in Washington, DC: “This is a question of definition and nowadays the word "genocide" is used very loosely even in cases where no bloodshed is involved at all and I can understand the annoyance of those who feel refused. But in this particular case, the point that was being made was that the massacre of the Armenians in the Ottoman Empire was the same as what happened to Jews in Nazi Germany and that is a downright falsehood. What happened to the Armenians was the result of a massive Armenian armed rebellion against the Turks, which began even before war broke out, and continued on a larger scale. Great numbers of Armenians, including members of the armed forces, deserted, crossed the frontier and joined the Russian forces invading Turkey. Armenian rebels actually seized the city of Van and held it for a while intending to hand it over to the invaders. There was guerilla warfare all over Anatolia. And it is what we nowadays call the National Movement of Armenians Against Turkey. The Turks certainly resorted to very ferocious methods in repelling it. There is clear evidence of a decision by the Turkish Government, to deport the Armenian population from the sensitive areas. Which meant naturally the whole of Anatolia. Not including the Arab provinces which were then still part of the Ottoman Empire. There is no evidence of a decision to massacre. On the contrary, there is considerable evidence of attempt to prevent it, which were not very successful. Yes there were tremendous massacres, the numbers are very uncertain but a million nay may well be likely. The massacres were carried out by irregulars, by local villagers responding to what had been done to them and in number of other ways. But to make this, a parallel with the holocaust in Germany, you would have to assume the Jews of Germany had been engaged in an armed rebellion against the German state, collaborating with the allies against Germany. That in the deportation order the cities of Hamburg and Berlin were exempted, persons in the employment of state were exempted, and the deportation only applied to the Jews of Germany proper, so that when they got to Poland they were welcomed and sheltered by the Polish Jews. This seems to me a rather absurd parallel.”

8QQET23T9d in reply to Fahrettin Tahir

What are you talking about? Who is presently coveting the East Aegean
GREEK islands? Who is not accepting international laws regarding air space and territorial waters? Who has fighter jets flying over GREEK islands every day? If you are talking about 100 years ago
I am talking about the present...

panagiotis atmatzidis, it just "collapsed"? Oh, I had no idea there was a destructive war that killed most of the civilian populace.

Who says we deny that we intervened in Cyprus?

Really, I don't get you Greeks? Have you heard about the war crime tribunals of Mladic this week? I bring it up because it is known by now that Greece sent paramilitary to aid in the genocide of Muslim Bosniaks.

This is exactly what was going to happen to the Turkish Cypriots. In fact, it was already underway. As usually occurs in these unheard of massacres of Muslim minorities, it's almost completely unreported by Western journalists and in the rare times it is reported, it's too late.

Geopolitics demand that Turkiye had to stand by and watch Srebrenica. Geopolitics demand that Turkiye had to stand by and watch the Circassian genocide.

You think Turkiye has to stand by and watch this happen to fellow Turks of the closest kind?

Do you really think Turkiye got up one day in the 1970's and said, "Hey, I'm going to invade Cyprus and create an impasse that (despite saving lots of Turkish Cypriot lives) will be constantly brought up?

Again, "the UK changed partner"? That's interesting as they were still occupying Istanbul and still fighting on behalf of Armenian terrorists in the East and still in telegraph contact with kurdish separatist terrorists. As I recall Wilson, Lloyd George, and Curzon were still racist twats and Chrsitian wannabe-crusaders.

Yes, the Turks never win without some little asterisk mark at the bottom, right? I love Greek nationalist education.

Don't worry. You can probably buy your old house in Izmir for very cheap. I would actually prefer you to a certain pseudo-ethnic group of iranic deadbeats that turn everywhere they move into a ghetto.

Okay, this is going way out of topic. A user was 'hostile' against 'Greece' as a culture/nation that why I bothered replying. I won't stand here telling that *Greece is good* and *Turkey, Albania, Bulgaria, Germany, Italy or Israel* is bad.

Every nation has it's pros and cons. The political elites in every country, decide the fates of the many. So of course Greece's political class through the years, has it's woes.

I never heard about the facts you mention, I don't have any reason to believe otherwise. What I'm saying is that we could have lived without slaughtering each other in the 1st WW. The people Turkish-Greek were living (you mention Izmir) quite peacefully under the Turkish empire. In the end they lost everything and for what? For having a Greek flag instead of a Turkish one in the center of the city? I don't think they really care. After all, they were treated really awful in Greece later on.

In our history books is clearly stated that one of the main reasons of the downturns that Kemal had come to an agreement with the UK. The war was essentially over so they needed (new) Turkey's under their thumb more badly then they needed Greece.

I never said that the UK is *in love* or acted out of *sympathy* for Turkey. For sure they have played with Turkey as they do with every other country they lay their hands on. But that's a *game played* since the beginning of time. Only people could change it, if they get informed and don't vote for corporate dogs in key positions.

I won't reply any other comments on the matter, I don't have any issues with my neighbours.

ps. Thanks for the offer, but I'm fine where I live and grown now :-). Hope things doesn't get too nasty for me to survive in Greek soil. I'd like to visit Izmir some time. Cya

SeaFlea in reply to GeneralSherman

Sorry but this information appears in messages from Ataturk to the British Military at that time.
History is a complicated topic because different countries teach it differently to their people but research of course does help especially when one has access to personal papers.
At any rate, this is an interesting discussion but motivated perhaps a little too strongly by personal prejudices.
It was crass stupidity of Greece to begin that war but let's face it, they did. It is now 2012, Greece has good relations with Turkey but considering the strength of the Turkish military that is funded in part and supplied by the US for obvious reasons (Soviet threat from the past), and the large population of that country, Greece must surely be concerned. We must not forget that there still is a dispute over the Aegean (because of oil) as well as over Islands.
The Greeks did the fighting and did kill many Turks but Turks killed many Greeks and Armenians whatever excuse they each had for doing so. That is why a United Europe is important, to keep hatred at bay, to force people to live and work peaceably together and stop this nonsensical finger-pointing.
By the way, all Empires after many centuries do become corrupt and implode. The Romans did, the Eastern Roman Empire did and so did the Osmanli Empire. It was Kemal who forged a nation called Turkey out of the Osmanli Empire. Good for him.

Marie.Claude in reply to GeneralSherman

how much Erdogan is paying you these days for dispaying Turkish propaganda ?

Reading your posts, on the Greeks and on the Armenians, we easly understand why the Greeks felt the necessity to buy arms

Tell me what do you think of Israel?

Oh that's weird, the Iranians are your concurrents in ME, since they have the nerve for alimenting a war machine, hey they have the biggest oil reserve, it would be funny to watch how long your war machine will run into them before being dried up.

and don't expect that the NATO countries will help you, since you want to get your own way with it

"for the time being). NATO’s last loyal allies are the generals of the Turkish army.

But they already have been put out of order by Erdogan.

BTW, there are document on the Turks slaughtering the Greeks in Smyrne and aeras

"According to the records of the Greek Patriarchate, in the province of Smyrna 9,250 Ottoman Greeks were deported before the start of the Great War alone. It should be noted that some later deportations were hindered by German intervention.

George Horton, the US consul general at Smyrna from 1911-1917 and 1919-1922, wrote in his memoirs that the local Turkish population was incited to turn against and oppress the Greeks:

"A general boycott was declared against them, for one thing, and posters calling on the Mussulmans to exterminate them were posted in the schools and mosques. The Turkish newspapers also published violent articles exciting their readers to persecution and massacre."

"Anna Birge, the wife of an American missionary stationed at Smyrna, recalled, "Among the many dead bodies, we saw men, women and children shot to death, bodies drawn up in horribly strained postures, with expressions portraying the endurance of excruciating pain." Sergeant Tchorbadjis of the Smyrna fire brigade experienced a horrible scene:"

sure kids and women were such rebels !!!

oh and about the Armenians, the kids and the women weren't spared too

is that isn't a ethnical cleansing? sure its wasn't scientifically orchestrated like in Nazy Germany, but nonetheless, quite disturbing for such a supposed tolerant turkish nation



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