China, North Korea and its nukes

Smile, please

After calculated tantrums come the Dear Leader’s calculated charms

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Readers' comments


Michael Dunne

I think N. Korea originally got its start from the Soviets too:

trained specialists in the Soviet Union.
with a cooperation agreement with the Soviet Union it constructed a nuclear research center in Yongbyon.
In 1965 it received a Soviet IRT-2M research reactor
I think another reactor was built with Soviet assistance

It seems that since the 1970s the N. Koreans gradually built up their skills, although the tests so far seem to indicate flaws to date in their devices (too low of yields).

Otherwise, I believe Iran is going the highly enriched uranium route, like Pakistan, as opposed to bombarding U-238 to produce and extract Pu 239

As for China and the US, it seems the only real point of contention could be over Taiwan from a geopolitical perspective, and then trade policy from an economic perspective.

I don't see the Spratly Islands or questions over islands with Japan going anywhere in terms of hostile actions.

I am not sure China and the US would get into a fight over N. Korea, unless we and the S. Koreans carried out some sort of preemptive strike (which I think is unlikely).

Finally,I don't think S. Korea and Japan would nuke eachother, even if they turned their considerable nuclear skills to making weapons. Luckily, it seems Japan is giving ABMs a try first with SM-3 and PAC defenses - possibly S. Korea would join the efforts.

Michael Dunne

One poster inferred the Soviets never helped the Chinese. I believe that is not the case.

In "Nuclear Technology" it stated "The Chinese nuclear weapons program had beun in the early 1950s in cloes cooperation with the Soviet Union."

From other sources:

With Soviet assistance, nuclear research began at the Institute of Physics and Atomic Energy in Beijing, and a gaseous diffusion uranium enrichment plant in Lanzhou was constructed to produce weapon-grade uranium. On 15 October 1957 the USSR agreed to provide China with a sample atomic bomb and manufacturing data (which never happened).

After 1960 the Soviet rift anulled the relationship and then China went on its own way. Actually it was quite successful and rapidly progressed through a number of technologies (first atomic bomb on 16 October 1964; weaponized it and drop one from a plane in 1965; and set of its first hydrogen bomb on 17 June 1967).

Air Power

North Korea is spending their money on trying to build nuclear facilities. That seems to be a smart move when their economy is one portion of what their neighboring South Korea or that of course of Japan. Why not spend on human development? And people often critique the U.S. as a nation that wastes resources.

Mike Rudd

I like Macumazans thinking but don't think nukes should be offered, but certainly helping Japan to build up its defense with SAMs would concentrate Chinas thoughts on the problem.
It is not a step in the right direction for America to try to do any thing without both China and Russia's help
this is after all in their area of influence, and they have both shown their dislike for America going alone in all other disputes


If South Korea and Japan have nukes, they will probably kill each other. South Korea and North Korea are never going to use nukes on each other, it'll be like killing your own brother. A nuclear Japan is the greatest threat to South Korea imaginable.


Soviet Union never helped Chinese's nuclear weapons program, the person who taught chinese how to buildnuclear weapons was Klaus Fuchs, a German who worked on the Manhattan project.


I earlier suggested that that the Americans sell nukes to Japan, Vietnam, South Korea and the Republic of China on Taiwan for their self defence against North Korean threats and then withdraw American troops from east Asia. Devil's Advocate's response was this:

"Let the Chinese quietly tell the Americans that, if they did that, China would give anyone and everyone the knowledge to build the A-bomb."

The problem is precisely that anyone and everyone can ALREADY get the technology, not from China, but from North Korea, just as the Syrians and Iranians have done, together with plans for delivery systems based on North Korean rocketry. It hs been Chinese stupidity in allowing Kim Jong Il to develop nukes that has brought this situation about, where China must now live with a bellicose, aggresive and possibly insane nuclear-armed dictator-state on its border close enough for even a short range missile to obliterate Beijing. THAT is what should concentrate minds in Beijing. The suggested Chinese response of Devil's Advocate would change nothing from the situation we are already in. If Japan, Vietnam South Korea and the Republic of China had nukes, they would at least have a credible deterrent against North Korean threats. America could go home and leave north Asia to the care of brotherly love. It would save Americans hundreds of billions, but, sadly, probably obliterate north Asia. Them's the breaks for insane political choices. China has had to live with the ridiculous political choices it has made, starting with Mao and the Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution. Allowing North Korea to develop nukes must at least rank with that.


North Korea is a Chinese pupet it can not exist
with out Cnina's support. The North Korean song & Dance is at the behest of China to extract concessions for bringing North Korea to the Table.
How does North korea exist? Answere to that is
China. It is China that has been passing on
Missile and Atomic secrets to North Korea and Pakistan. It is China that has to be held accountable
for North Korean actions.

Michael Dunne

I think proliferation of any sort concerning nuclear weapons is a bad idea, and really there is no place for such wild talk. Seems like the Chinese may have had some involvement in the past with Pakistan and North Korea (don't know about Iran), but I am not sure how deep those relationships went (outright helped them produce a weapon, or provided some technical aid along the lines of the Soviets helping them in the 1950s).

Luckily, judging from the tests, it doesn't seem like Pakistan and N. Korea have mastered the technology. I am always dubious of sub kiloton explosions for beginners that would probably be shooting for a standard 10 to 20 Kt result.

China seems very realistic and sober about its foreign policy. With that being said, possibly fears of disruption along its border with N. Korea, combined with some good old N. Korea truculence and a dose of inertia in policy constrains China from more active measures, except when something outrageous occurs (like an unexpected fission test).


"Let the Chinese quietly tell the Americans that, if they did that, China would give anyone and everyone the knowledge to build the A-bomb. Some people will indeed have to "concentrate minds" to deal with the resulting mess"___Devils advocate

I think youve missed the point. China has been doing this for decades (Pak, DPRK, Iran)

The US is responding, first with India, next will be Japan. But first will be a big disarmament push for everyone. If it fails, expect more proliferation and everybody loses.


I wanted to say thank you to those who commented on my post, and for the other interesting comments written here.

To Mizutofu, who asked me to "read my history" and blamed America for the Taft-Katsura Agreement:

I would be the first to agree that the US has made enormous foreign policy errors in the past, that have been costly in blood and treasure. Taft-Katsura is an example of that. I also have no illusions that the US intervened in Korea purely for charitable reasons. The Cold War had begun, and it was acting to contain the perceived expansion of communism.

But generally speaking, history and, more importantly, the present day confirm the rightness of many US policies in Korea. And they confirm the terrible wrongness of Chinese policy toward the region, both in the past and in the present.

Mizutofu, you speak to me about learning history. Here are the important takeaways from history. The US fought on the South Korean side in 1950-53. They had beaten back the North Korean troops, were approaching the Yalu River and were largely on the path to reunifying the Korean peninsula. The Chinese intervened on behalf of Kim Il Sung and North Korea and sent a million troops against the Americans. They killed a great number of US and South Korean troops and pushed them back to the current armistice line. Had China not intervened, I think any reasonable historian would presume that Korea would have remained unified. These facts are an undeniable part of history.

Of course, in 1953 there was a vigorous debate among the Americans, Chinese and Koreans about which which country and which political system would end up helping Korea. And what does history and the present day tell us? Has the US treated South Korea like a puppet state and a colony, or enslaved it as the communists said they would? Has North Korea become a socialist paradise? Did China end up being a benevolent patron to North Korea, as I am sure it claimed?

The answers to these questions are clear. I would be the first to say that the US has made many mistakes with respect to South Korea from 1953 to the present. At times, they have justifiably earned the anger of the Korean people. But the US also promoted a capitalist system and opened their markets to South Korean businesses. The South Korean economy developed rapidly and Samsung, Hyundai, Korean movies and dramas are well known all around the world now. The success of modern South Korean society is largely due to the hard work of the South Koreans themselves. But on balance, the US has made a valuable contribution to economic progress in South Korea. And many, many Koreans recognize and appreciate this fact.

The US also helped to foster democracy in South Korea, which today is one of of the most vibrant democratic societies in Asia. For a while, the US supported a series of ex-military presidents, who were strong at economic policy but had weak democratic instincts. But the US intervened at critical moments and helped eventually usher in the rights and freedoms that the Korean people enjoy today. For example, in 1980, President Chun Doo Hwan took over the presidency in South Korea and began to jail and execute human rights activists who demonstrated against him. A particularly prominent human rights leader, Kim Dae Jung, was one of those activists who was sentenced to die. Who intervened to save his life? According to Kim Dae Jung, it was the US, and Kim Dae Jung went on to become the president of a democratic South Korea.

Meanwhile, North Korea has been under the Chinese sphere of influence. And how has North Korea done as a result? North Korea has not improved since 1960. People are starving and brainwashed. Torture and corruption are rampant.

The most important thing to note is that China CONTINUES to send money and gifts to the Kim Jong Il regime, all of which goes into expensive luxury goods for fat generals and government officials. China CONTINUES to refuse to put pressure on the North Korean government to reform its ways or treat its citizens better. China CONTINUES to capture North Korean refugees and return them to North Korea, where they almost certainly will be tortured and killed. China has pursued these policies since 1953 and has never changed them. I don't have to go back into history and point to this or that treaty in the past to criticize China, as Mizutofu tried to do with the US. I can simply point to the here and now. The here and now is much more important than the past. And in the here and now, China helps to perpentuate the suffering of the North Korean people.

Many Chinese may wonder why many countries and people in the world, while appreciating China's historical and economic contributions to the world, are wary of its rise to power. Some Chinese attribute this to racism, western bias or imperialism. China's policies toward North Korea from 1950 to the present provide a good reason for that wariness.

Vinnie from Tewksbury

Macumazan -- Yes, if the Japanese or South Koreans request nuclear technology from us we should help them out. This will not only put pressure on the North Koreans but make the Chinese very nervous.

After all if China wanted a regime change in North Korea, it could happen very quickly or at least they could tell the North Koreans to loosen up and get real.


Now he has his prize, Obama should not act so belligently as the case of past presidents toward North Korea.


With due respect, it was probably a grave mistake to get Japan into the six-party talk that so far with nothing much to show for.

Other than being its neighbor, Japan has had built up too much mistrust with North Korea because Japan’s WWII atrocities and related issues like abductees and retribution; and not just with North Korea but also with South Korea and China too.

With such composition of members for the talk, it was difficult at best to develop ambience of conferences conducive to reaching positive consensus.

Bilateral issues should be resolved in bilateral meetings and should not become obstacles holding hostage of multi-lateral such as the Japanese abductees issue to the 6-party talk.

Now that China is winning back a step toward renewing or resuming of the 6-party talk following Mr. Wen’s visit to Pyongyang, perhaps it’s time to consider changing the talk to 5-party talk sans Japan.

There should be no face or substance lost for Japan. It would be contributing to the talk by abstaining from the talk while its security concerns can be adequately addressed by the U.S. and S. Korea, and that would be good statesmanship on the part of Japan.

Devils Advocate_1

[Macumazan wrote: Thu, 2009-10-08 12:16

Let the Americans quietly tell the Chinese that unless they come onside, the U.S. will sell nukes for self-defence to Japan, Vietnam and the Republic of China in Taiwan, after which all American troops east of Guam would be withdrawn from Asia. That would concentrate minds wonderfully in Beijing and save the U.S. a lot of money in the process.]



read up history, United States and Soviet Union signed the treaty to partition korea.

And before that, Theodore Roosevelt signed the Taft–Katsura Agreement authorizing Japan to annex Korea.

No wonder there has always been a lot of anti-American sentiment in Korea.

Impartial Observer

I am confident Dear Leader also learned from the 1980s. He will allow no contacts or openings that he cannot tightly control. Any "carrot & stick" strategy with the idea that the "carrot" will bring more openness and freedom to North Korea will only result in him/his army getting the carrot, and everyone else getting nothing.


junglee09 pretty much said it all...unless China somehow equates US meddling in Taiwan and will not contemplate South Korea/North Korea reunion until the US contemplates Taiwan and Chinese reunion. But - if closer ties come about naturally between the two Koreas - then it would be hard for China to turn the tide. North Korea is a cult with an Army - and those are hard to bring into enlightenment.


China's goals with North Korea seem pretty transparent, and not particularly healthy for the North Korean people or the global community. But they suit China's own interests just fine. In that sense, the recent meeting between Wen and Kim was very successful from the Chinese point of view.

China likes to keep North Korea a problematic nuclear power. It can extract concessions in other areas from the US and South Korea for its so-called "helpful" efforts to bring back North Korea to the negotiating table. But it never uses its enormous influence on North Korea to move the country to make reforms, treat its people more humanely or make substantial concessions to improve regional security and nuclear disarmament. I can see why -- if the North Korea problem goes away, then the US, Japan and South Korea have one less thing that they need China for.

China also likes to keep North Korea weak. A weak country is more controllable. North Korea does seem to have a will of its own and does not do everything China wants, but this does not dispel the fact that it has become enormously dependent on Beijing's handouts.

Lastly, and most importantly, it should be abundantly clear that China opposes any type of unification of the Korean peninsula, despite the obvious tragedy and unjustness of their separation. China made the division possible by killing Americans and South Koreans during the Korean War to put Kim Il Sung in power in 1953. And in all the years since, they have never apologized for that and continue to support perhaps the most vicious and disgusting regime ever known. Ironic, given that the Chinese know very well through the Cultural Revolution what a hell it must be to live in North Korea right now.

If there is a collapse in North Korea, it is also all too clear that China would do all it can (e.g., set up a puppet government that purports to represent the will of the North Korean people, etc.) to prevent the Korean people from coming together again. To do otherwise would cause a strong U.S. ally to appear on its eastern borders, something the Chinese would find intolerable.

The US and South Korea should do all they can to promote the reunification of Korea. If that requires bilateral talks and a development of substantial exchanges with North Korea, so be it. If those exchanges are real enough and substantial enough, trust may slowly build so that unification is again some day possible. Above all, the US and South Korea should be unified in their approach and be clear-minded about what China's ultimate interests in the Korean peninsula are. Those interests are not the same as the interests of the North Korean people or global security. They are China's interests alone.



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