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StuartA's picture
Not in Karate/Kata

Hi folks,

I wonder if you can help me comfirming a few things? I am specifically looking/cross-referencing certain moves in TKD patterns to see if they ever appear in kata (specifically Shotokan or similar).

What I`m looking to find out is the following:

1) Whether a kata has the exact same move, a similar move (or looking similar) move ie. it ends up being formed/looking the same at its completion) or whether there was never anything like it at all.

2) Whether you are refering to modern kata or pre-1900 Okinawa versions.

Will get to some of the moves in a minute, but for now, can anyone 100% comfirm that no kicks in pre-1900 kata were above the waist at all?


Okay - heres a few moves/techniques to start - I`ll use the english names with a link to a picture to get them across:

1) Twisting Kick    (low/mid & high versions) - http://taekwondo.wikia.com/wiki/File:ITF_Twisting_Kick.jpg

-- the picture shows a high section version, the low section one is done to the groin

 2) X-Knifehand checking block - http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:-rfcEv0kgRNbkM:http://www.taekwondo.edu.sg/Tuls/Choong-Moo%2520Tul_files/27000000.jpg

-- Sorry about picture, its all I could find. However, basically, this block starts with both hands at check height and simply come outwards and cross!  The older version of the technique sees the hands coming upwards and cross.

3) Two finger strike - cant find a picture but basically its like a flat fingertip thrust (http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:sGu-2Se16MrAzM:http://www.taekwondo.edu.sg/Tuls/Choong-Moo%2520Tul_files/04000000.jpg) but with the two main fingers split apart as if poking into each eye!

4) Back Piercing Kick - http://i.ehow.com/images/a04/a3/38/perform-front-snap-kick-double-120X120.jpg - I know karate probibly had back kicks (with the kicking leg coming straight out backwards) but this kick has a 180 degree spin prior to the kick eg. with left leg back in L-Stance/back stance the student raises his left foot as he spins 180 degrees anti-clockwise to strike an oppoenent in front!  I have seen a similar jumping version in the kata where the student spins and lands using both palms, but am looking to see if there was ever a standing version prior to Hee Il Cho using it in the US Sport karate in th 70's

5. Reverse Turning Kick -http://www.taekwondocentre.ie/userfiles/Image/Database/small.GERRYREVTK.JPG - like the above kick, this comes from the back leg with a spin to end up in the position you see in the picture!!

I`ll leave it there for now and see what everyone thinks, but will probibly have a few more later :-)



ky0han's picture

Hi Stuart,

I am studying Shotokan for a view years now. So maybe I can help you out a little.

To your questions.

I am 100% sure, that no pre1900 kata contained kicks that where above the waist. If you look at old Shorin Ryu Kata you can get a picture how kicks were performed in the old days.

All of the above mentioned kicks don't exist in Shotokan Kata. There are only Mae Geri (Front Kick), Yoko Geri (Side Kick), Mikazuki Geri (Crescent Kick) and Hiza Geri (Knee Kick). I hope I didn't forgot something.

The two finger strike is in the Shotokan kata Chinte http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RV619nWyNbg at 0:45 and 0:47.

The X-Knife Hand Checking is, when I got that right, in the Shotokan Heian Godan or Wado Pinan Godan http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZagZ6egeRbw at 0:36.

Hope that helps.

Regards Holger

StuartA's picture

Great - many thanks Holger,

I always thought that 2 finger strike to be a bit 'iffy' so figured it must be a TKD thing, but now I know its related as well! Anyone know any good apps apart from eye gouges lol? Interestingly enough, according to Gen Chois early books he didnt learn Chinte as he gained a 2nd dan and I belive this is usually taught at 3rd dan - though maybe he 'saw' it and included it that way!!!

The knifehand checking block isnt like you pointed out though (we have that and call it X-Knifehand Rising Block) - the one I refer to can be seen here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLXdxtZ93WI - its the very fist move (although its usually perfromed more to the side of the student).

Regarding the kicks - doesnt Shotokan also have side snap kick or does that come under 'side kick'? Where there any jumping kicks btw? Does anyone know if/when jump kicks appeared in karate?

Again, many thanks, your comfirmations have been extremely helpful as although I think/thought I know/knew the answers, I just want to be sure and its good to cross-check and find out things I didnt know (liek the double finger strike one).



Ps. Anyone esle feel free to put your POV in - comfirm/deny/argue the points etc. The more I have, the healthier my project will be - a simple Holger is 100% spot on would be cool ;-)

ky0han's picture

Hi Stuart,

no Problem.

The X - Knifehand thing in the video fits more to the opening move of Shotokans Gankaku oder Wado Chinto called Sokumen Awase Uke but it seems not quite to be the same. http://www.karateclubagenais.com/blocage-Sokumen%20awase%20uke.jpg http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7IxomweIx8

Shotokan uses two kinds of sidekicks in kata. Yoko Geri Keage (snapped) and Yoko Geri Kekomi (thrusted) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dPJKkWwRgdM&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t19qFxQVMKM But that seems to be a newer invention by Funakoshis third son Gigo. Rumors tell that Funakoshis teacher Azato Anko used Sidekicks and that Gigo was thought the Azato style by his father. He found them usefull an indroduced them into Shotokan. The Sidekicks used in old Shorin Kata look like Frontkicks to the side.

A jumping kick occur in Kanku Dai (Nidan Geri). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zftf4orGIn0 at 1:40 But since when those type of kicks are in Karate I can't tell. It is allready in the old version Chatanyara Kushanku.Maybe they were allready practised back in china.

Regards Holger

StuartA's picture

Thanks - the x-Knifehand still looks like the rising version in TKD (as they come upwards), as opposed to the checking version which comes outwards!

Is that termed a jumping kick in Kanku Dai or simply a double jump fowards? (I ask as TBH, there didnt seem much of a kick there  and it could be a case of simply looking like one - though that may just be me)


ky0han's picture

Hi Stuart,

the jumping kick in Kanku Dai also occurs in Gangaku and is labeled Nidan Geri. When I translate that correct than it is a two step kick. Ni (two), Dan (Step, Grade like Dan grade)

In Shotokan, Wado and Shorin Ryu it is a jumping kick. For the sake of the name it would be okay to do two front kicks without jumping I guess. If you know Iains application for this, you get the idea. Nidan Geri is here usesd for simply kicking the shins of the opponent.

Regards Holger

StuartA's picture

So if I`m reading you right, some do it as a jumping kick, but actually its more of a 'skipping' type kick!

Thanks once again Holger

Th0mas's picture

Hi Stuart

The x-block seen in  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLXdxtZ93WI could be a styalised knife hand block? I wouldn't get hung up too much with the exact form, the application implication is what is important.

In Chinte the two finger strike is more likely to do with applying pressure to someone's eyes whist you step past and facilitate a take down rather than an attempt at pocking someone in the eye from a long range lunge. :-)

Hope that helps


Black Tiger
Black Tiger's picture

I would like to know if the kata Linked below is performed in other styles of Karate and if so what is the application of this kata and are there Korean versions too