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Hey Mom I'm an Atheist

Oh No, nothing for Christmas

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When the young man, the atheist who posted the video, removed it from YouTube I decided to pull the video as well, but leave the audio. He is quite likely distressed at having pictures of his family on the internet. Someone else has reposted the video to YouTube for how long I don't know, but it's here if you want to view it.



That's alright, I'll pitch in to buy him an x-mas present. whatever can lessen the pain of such a stuck up mother.

christians can be so scary. although, perhaps, she was actually scared herself.

Poor kid. It would be hard to come out of the atheist closet at that age. The pure rage from that mother is sad. What is this clip from??


Braver than I! I haven't even told my mom (and probably wont...)


Oh, and i loved how she threatened with presents ("that's what christmas is about!")


I'm another 'confirmed atheist'


Lucky for me, I told my parents I didn't believe in God when I was as young as 7. They sure didn't act like this though. I mean, I was a kid, nothing I said was set in stone yet. Well, I'm still an atheist, and they don't seem to mind much anymore.

Anyway, where was this filmed. Sounds like North Dakota; just speculation though.


another confirmed atheist here :)

that was really brave of him. took some guts to face such a ballistic mother. bet that felt really good though...

i don't know, but aren't there easier ways to talk to one's children than constantly bullying them or threatening them?

What that kid doesn't understand is the Jesus died going down a chimney so he could have presents. For three days his corpse remained in that chimney until some guy poked at it with a spear and dislodged it. And now that kid is going to completely disregard that sacrifice? What is happening to the youth of today?

The good thing is that he's out now. He can now start going to atheist bars. Who knows, maybe even a...parade? One can dream.

Awesome video Norm. I shall send this to my parents.

boy is he in trouble!!

hah! the clip vanished off youtube the miniute I watched it.. Jesus must be pummeling his ass right now!

OK Norm, fess up. You corrupted Michael and then filmed him in the act of coming out to his parents.

What could make you do such a thing. Could it be...Satan?!

Now you have to get Michael something for X-mas, you BASTARD!

This is why my parents still don't know I'm an atheist, and I'm 26.

...not that I would mind not getting christmas presents. Actually, I haven't received christmas presents in years anyway, because they actually came to the realization that christmas is a pagan celebration. is Easter

that was many people call themselves christians who, in reality, are nothing of the sort. Believe what you want about the 'story'...but you can never argue with the life and actions of a real christian...of which there are seemingly few these days...

Poor kid...

That is exactly why I refused to get confirmed, that was my first and only stand. Mum couldn't understand at first, but I told her "Look, I had little to no choice for Christening and First communion, do you really want me to lie when I get confirmed?"

also, that father needs to take his balls back from his wife...she cut 'em off and put them in her purse...grow a pair and defend the abuse of your son, man!

I don't feel too bad for him, as long as he sticks by his "non-beliefs". At least he got 15-16 years of presents in. I barely got Channukah presents, which aren't special enough to buy someone's faith with. That would seem a much better rationale for belief in god though - Christmas presents... really, really good ones.

the first thing i thought was "i want to send this guy a christmas present". im not kidding. i want to find out who he is and send him some treats lol. atheists lack the kind of structure and support thats needed to take away our bad reputation. who is he and lets give him something for his bravery cause its well deserved for standing up to his mother. im lucky my mother is respectful of my view.

Crazy woman. I love her ignorance of the origins of Christmas, and how she tried to bribe him. What was she looking for? "In that case, Jesus is my Lord and savior! And I want a PS3."


This is not a happy family. The mom's vulgar anger is likely from fear of failing her socially expected role, the chubby dad seems passive and perhaps overeats to stuff down his disallowed feelings, the boy is a little young to make this decision without the risk that it's really more about just wanting to be independent from his mom, and who is the unseen operator of the camera? A younger sibling, perhaps? The filming was planned in advance. Lots of secret intrigue for a suburban middle class family of four. They need family counseling.

"christians can be so scary."

true. but don't let this turn into a generalization.

there are plenty of well adjusted, clear thinking, tolerant Christians.

But there's no reason to make a video/mp3 of those people, so it's hard to tell.

  • sean

Yeah... I would buy him a christmas present too. Hopefully he stands by his beliefs. It is so sad to see someone who is probably logical and intelligent slammed by a person who is probably ignorant and not a critical thinker. She is so full of hatred and violence. I thought christians were supposed to kindly reach out to non-believers. That whole conversation is just really scary.

I love how she like pauses after he goes "okay" when she says thats hes getting nothing for christmas.

She was expecting the guy to like go ":( im sowwry mum i love god" but he was just like "okay"

haha epic

dammit, why didn't I download the video when I had the chance?

How old is this guy? I'm giving him all my respect. It's tough to be rational in an irrational world!

He looked to be 14 or 15 in the video.

Personally I am a devout atheist.

Wow... that woman is a psycho! Good on him for having the courage to stand up to her.

This lady talks about a bishop, so she is most likely a Catholic, not a Christian (don't confuse them). She obviously doesn't understand her faith - or lack there of, but she undoubtedly is scared and angry that her child would actually choose to spend eternity in hell.

Ask yourself, what if Satan and hell does exist, is that where you would choose to be? Given the fact that no one can prove that it doesn't exist, why would you chance it?

last time i checked, presents weren't a reward for believing in god.

The video is still available here:

Oh wow I always made the joke that I'm a confirmed atheist. Never knew it was a common thing.



NOTHING for Christmas! NOTHING.

Jeez, I guess I better go be a Christian again. After all, Christianity is all about presents on December 25th and Cadbury Cream Eggs on the First Sunday in April, right?

I'm glad py parents didn't baptise me when I was born, they gave me the choice of wether or not to believe in God or Allah or Buddah or whatever. I think things are different from the U.S. here in Norway, no one is afraid to admit that they're atheists.

Anger is often a product of fear, and I think she is afraid of her son going to hell, though she may also be motivated by what others may think. This is why I don't tell my family that I'm an atheist. I know my mom and grandparents would loose sleep over thinking I will go to hell.

Some parents in the U.S. are cool. My parents were Mormons and when i told them that I didn't believe in God when I was 13 years old, they weren't pleased, but they didn't yell at me or anything. I stopped going to church and my dad said that it didn't make any sense to force me to go. I guess that my situation was the exception to the rule.


I like how the Mom says "GOD EQUALS PRESENTS FOR CHRISTMAS EQUALS JESUS" That makes perfect sense

Jo Ann,

I hope watching one video on the internet is not enough to make you think your situation is the exception. I would wager that what went on in this video is the exception, not the rule.

Yep, I'm a baptized and confirmed atheist. The sect I was baptized into does both at birth. It was really mainly done to make my grandparents happy, because both my parents are atheists.

So is this a video, or just audio?

Hi Syngas,

It's not from this one video that I said that. It's from what I hear on the internet and from what friends have told me. But then from what I hear from other people on the internet always leaves me thinking that I must live in a unique part of the world. ;)

Also, my boyfriend has told me how when he was visiting his parents (who live in Peoria) as an adult, his dad went balistic on him when he told his father he was an atheist. He was asked to leave and he never again spoke to his father after that.

Someone totally needs to get Michaels address and pitch in to get him some kind of awesome present, perhaps a Porsche ? it would be totally worth it to videotape his moms face when it gets delivered "Well Mom, the people on the internet love me and gave me this car... does your invisible god do that?" -priceless!


Umm - Catholics /are/ Christians, you know.


Ah, so everyone should just "hedge their bets" just in case there is a God? Do you think God will be impressed when you are judged and say, "I didn't really believe in you, but I decided to go through the motions like I did just in case you were real..."


Don't forget, there are also plenty of athiests out there that you "can't argue with their actions" either. Just because someone is athiest doesn't mean they are incapable of abiding by any set of rules they set for themselves.

It's like saying someone is wrong for using a different algebraic formula to save the same problem you solved by using an abacus.

Get over yourselves.

I agree Casey, I don't believe in Zeus, but I tell everyone I do because just in case Zeus is real I don't want to end up in Hades.

And those Catholics running around pretending to be Christians. Don't they know that there were no Christians until Martin Luther teamed up with the Justice League to start the Church of Silly Hats and Later Day Saints

Fobby, The Ethics Of Ambiguity by Simone de Beauvoir is your go-to-book for ethics sans religion.


Given the fact that no one can prove that heaven doesn't exist... would you chance that?


How is the fact that no one can prove or not prove that heaven exists?

I told my mother years ago and she couldn't care less. We still celebrate christmas but for the whole santa and gifts thing not stupid jesuscocksucker.

The reason I haven't told most of my family is because my grandmother is old and frail and very devoutly catholic. I'm actually afraid she might have a heart attack.

Kinda sad, really.

At least not all Americans are raving Christian idiots. Although most are.

Catholics and Protestants are both Christians. My understanding is that there are two main branches of Christianity, Catholic and Protestant with each having their own sub-groups (Lutheran, Orthodox, etc.). Both groups are indeed Christian and in fact any historical reference to Christians until the Protestant reformation during the 16th century must refer to Catholics since Protestants did not exist yet. So saying not to confuse a Catholic with a Christian seems a bit odd to me. Or am I missing something? :-)

I tried to come out to my mom as an agnostic several times. Never taked.

"Christian" can be partially defined as someone that follows the teachings of Jesus Christ. I only got the audio, but judging from it, there were definitely some traits this mother displayed that were not in line with the teachings of Jesus Christ. It is tough to feel rejected, but she should have shown her son, or even her mortal enemy, Christian love.

Some will argue that Catholocism is not true Christianity because the clergy interrupts the believer's pure connection with the teachings of Jesus, as well as the fact that the religion uses strong idol worship. However, Catholics do, at core at least, try to follow the teachings of Jesus.

Atheism is not the necessary result of a logical mind. I have found it usually to be, although not always, the result of a non-humble or stubborn personality desiring to refuse authority or simply a lack of religious education. At its core though, if God does not choose to save you, you'll be an Atheist. I'll pray for you all. I can only suggest you read The Bible and study string theory.

Mother was atheist but was forced to be Catholic. Mother's mother was a Catholic. My mother learned more and more science and accepted that things happen scientifically rather than religiously. When my mother broke the news to my grandmother, she said, "I can't control what you think, but I've accepted christ as my personal savior." (bleh) At least my parents raised me right by being atheist.


"I'll pray for you all."

My al-time favorite response to this--and I wish I knew who to credit--is "thanks for nothing!"


I am a teenager who also has become agnostic. I told my parents just recently and it turns out that they are atheist. I'm glad my parents aren't like this. I hate parents like this.


Now, if Midnite had said "I'll pray for you to SPELL all..."

Dude, If I told my mom I believed in god, she'd be just as ticked as this mom is.... It must be a mother thing.

I have a feeling this is going to happen to me when I tell my mother/she finds out.

Of course she might give me the same advise she gives about everything else: pray about it.



lol now that's hilarious (see the video if you haven't already)!


seriously.... like, what?


The woman wasn't demanding that her son believe she was demanding confomity. That's why the bribe was her first line of defense.

I came from a similar family although Baptist and lower on the economic pole.

My feeling is that she was more worried about her rep within her own peer group, not whether or not the kid would go to hell.

She didn't mention hell or Jesus or any of that, just a straight up bribe attempt. Conform or lose the loot 'cause that's what it's all about.

I only saw it once but I believe the camera was sitting on a table. It may have been put there by the young man in case his announcement would trigger violence. A likely scenario.

IT must have taken everything he had not to hit her when she got in his face like that, as fucked up as that may sound. I honestly don't know if I could have restrained myself, even with my own mother. Dad should have gone off on her, maybe got a hotel room for the night so he could have taken the kids out of the house.

I wish I could shake that kids hand, and punch out his mom.

well he deserves it because he's a retarded atheist who's going to burn in hell



"Believe in Jesus, because maybe the Bible is true!"

At the same time:

If some one says they'll pray for you, you can assume it's a condescending way to say, "Oh you poor thing"

or you can assume that maybe this person believes that they have experienced God as something really real and true and beneficial and they sincerely hope that you'll experience him too.

Also: not all Catholics are like that lady, not all Christians are like the ones in "Jesus Camp" we don't all believe God and science are mutually exclusive and we don't all vote Republican.

Lastly, whoever on here would call themselves a "devout atheist" or anything like that. Whoever would "raise their kids right as an atheist" if you r kid came to you in the kitchen and told you he believed in Jesus, how would you react?

I'm not saying you are the same as her, or making any accusation, it's just something to think about.

  • sean

as george costanza said,

" I believe I am the target of a systematic process of intimidation and manipulation, the likes of which we have never seen."

I was going to wonder out loud if the video was fake, but given what people have said here about how their parents would react, I guess it's real enough for me.

I don't like the idea of getting this kid replacement Christmas presents. Support, yes; presents, no.

Michael. Believing it because you don't want to "chance it" is not believing. It's blinding yourself and choosing to live in arrogance. This kid did exactly what I did at about the same age (my confrontation was much worse, wish I could have had it on camera) and told his mother what he believed. And another thing. Atheists do not choose their beliefs, nor should anyone else. Who in their right mind wouldn't WANT to believe that there is a heavenly being watching over me and that when I die I will go to a place of eternal bliss. That would be amazing, but the fact of the matter (for me, and for all atheists) is that there is not. In the same bitter realization that there was no Santa Clause.

To all those who would turn this around on Atheists:

I have lived the entire portion of my adult life living in the 11-13% minority that is atheism. And I have been criticized, shunned, ignored, and disowned for it. Never once have I returned the favor. Why? Because Atheism does not care what the people around you believe. I care about how they act towards me, and what portion of my rights they are taking away with it, but deep down I don't care whether you believe in God, Santa, Elves, Tooth Fairies, Buddha, Ghosts, Aliens, Zen, Vortigaunts, or Flying Spaghetting Monsters. We all die the same way regardless. I'm not "Saving" a person by converting them.

For instance. At the age of about 16, I was attracted to, and frequently went on dates with an amazing girl. Knew she was Christian, so I felt it right to let her know. She then told me that she could never talk to me again, and has never since. My current girlfriend would consider herself a deist and could care less what I think.

When I marry and have kids, if my wife is religious I will have no problem splitting the teachings half-way. For every hour of church, I will have no regrets talking to them for an hour about my beliefs. If they choose to be religious (hah, think religion would stand a chance in this non-brainwashing environment?!) I would accept it and move on. Because again, atheism doesn't care. We just care that they are not inflicting their beliefs on others, or restricting someone else's rights.

Christmas is for bringing the family together, pretending to our children that Santa Clause is fucking real. Spoiling our children and family with items they really don't need... and making us start the new year with a lot less money.

What the fuck. I don't see where GOD relates to this. I wonder how long it's been since Christmas was on a Sunday. I'll go dig up the Calander map.

EDIT: Also note how obcene she is over her son declaring athieism, she uses Christmas as a guilt-trip to re-tain control... Just goes to show how "Selfish" Mormonism/Christianity, really is. Become a spiritualist, and divine into your own lifes path. w00t.

Yup. I'm definetally a great candidate to be excommunicated.


2 things... Alot of people get God and religion mixed up and end up walking away from both. An athiest looking for God is like a criminal looking for a cop. Get the real facts at This guy was once an athiest. I dare you to look at Check it out.

By the way, we all just missed it, but HAPPY ZOMBIE JESUS DAY!

i agree with jo ann, people of the internet, we must unite to buy this brave lad some replacement presents. Imagine her reaction, IMAGINE IT!!


I did not say that! When will people get a clue and understand which name belongs to which comment?!

She said he was confirmed. I guess that means she's a Catholic. She also said "We're going to start going to church every week." I know in the Catholic religion it's a mortal sin not to go every week. So I don't blame this kid for being an Atheist, as his mom's a hypocritical pile of dung.


So what is God apart from religion? The only thing I know about "god" or "gods" is what I was told from religions.

another confirmed atheist

my mum didn't care she was like follow lord buddha :(

Good for the mother.

Obviously she overreacted, but her intentions are good.

The life of an atheist is a barren desolate one.

That young man sounds very reasonable... it breaks my heart that his mother was screaming at him like that. Good for him, it takes a lot of courage to do that. The "comfirmation" thing is a real joke... if you stop believing in the person you enter into an agreement with, it's up to them to prove it ;).

I hope he makes it through the difficulties it will cause to say what he thinks.

My mother is religious but never forced her belief unduly onto me, only encouraged me to do good things (and it wasn't too important if I believed in Jesus' magic powers).


Good for the mother.

Obviously she overreacted, but her intentions are good.

The life of an atheist is a barren desolate one. "

exactly which part was good for the mother? yelling at her kid for thinking for himself? grabbing him and screaming threats in his face? swearing like a sailor in a discussion about god? projecting a negative image of non acceptance on not so crazy religious folk?

what are her intentions exactly? to give the kid gifts on xmas? does she want company at church? does his beliefs really effect hers?

explain to me how an atheists life is barren and desolate? how have you experienced the life of an atheist? i submit that you dont have answers for any of these questions ad are pulling your comments directly from your ass. you might call it faith.

To all that say "the retarded Atheist is going to burn in hell" you are the reason i lost my faith. When i was growing up i was taken to church every sunday and the one major think i took away from that experiance is that god nor jesus ever promoted HATE. That is all i see coming from religion today is hate. "die f*g burn in hell" then they follow it up with "jesus saves." I told my mother i don't believe any more and she was cool with it because i explained that i dont want to be part of a hypocritical religion where its considered "ok" to do and say horrible things to fellow human beings just because they dont follow your faith. Acceptance is gone, tollerance is gone. The people made me lose faith in religion.

Did anyone else who watched the vid notice the father just sitting there. This sort of explosion is likely a normal occurrence in this family. Also note that the (cell phone?) camera that this was being recorded by, was taken from the table as soon as the mother walked over, and could have seen it?. Odd. I'm also pretty astounded that the mom is a "catholic" but yet says "bullshit" and "fuckin'".

I'm 17 and I was born and raised in a Catholic family. Baptized, Christened, First Communion, Confirmation, I've done it all up to marriage and the last rites. I do believe in God, but I have no faith in Catholicism (in which there is no idol worship, they're just fucking statues). I've tried my damndest to get my parents to stop forcing me to go to church, but they've always told me that I'll be free after I turn 18 and leave the house. I turn 18 the week of Pentecost Sunday, one of the most important days to my mother. On that day, I will claim my independence and my true idea of faith: Organized religion is corrupt, but true belief in God is not.


I will also pitch in for the christmas present to that kid.

I think people like to keep their childhood as long is possible. They love to live a life of denial and be comforted by visions that are not there. It is the same reason that so many people believe in UFOs and ghosts.

It basically serves two purposes. The first is entertainment and the second is cultural identity and communication. We, however, could easily substitute religion for another culturally created creed.

I don't think either of them were Christians to begin with. If anything the boy was the one acting more Christian.

If anything the boy was the one acting more Christian.

No, he rejected Christian belief. I think you're confusing morality with Christianty, a common mistake.

Hey Michael -

Just say this to your mom:

Tooth Fairy, Easter Bunny, Santa Claus, Jesus Christ, God


Props to the kid for saying what he believes but i also thing that the mother was not acting out of intolerance but extreme faith, she was just worried about the boy's soul. I'm an agnostic, myself.

this guy is a real hero. just because someone is forced to go to church doesnt mean they are Christian. no matter what the mother can say, it's what he believes and nothing will change that. good work for telling your Christian mother. plus it doesn't matter about Christmas just set up your own charity "Presents for Atheist" and i will donate.

christian: "The life of an atheist is a barren desolate one."
Quite the contrary. The ability to think for yourself has an extremely liberating effect, you should try it.


Wow, now there's a powerful inducement to someone to believe. Yell at them and threaten their supply of Christmas presents.

Faith and religion have nothing in common.

Michael, I'm the son of God. Granted, I have no proof, but on the other hand, you have no way of proving that I'm not the son of God, either.

So why would you chance it?

Empty your savings account and put it in an envelope. I'll contact you later, with a PO address to send it to.

If you don't do it, I'll send you to hell. I'm not kidding. I've spoken to my dad, and he's with me on this one. If you don't send me your money, you'll burn in hell forever.

Do it. Do it! Satan is firing up the roaster as we speak.

Eternity is a long time, kiddo... And the only music they have, is Kenny G.

"You're an Atheist, give me a fucking break Michael...then you're going to get absolutely nothing, NOTHING for Christmas..."

lol classic, if shouting doesn't work then bribery is the Christian way. You can't decide whether to believe in god, you either do or don't. She should just show him a little respect.

Think bribery doesn't work?

Vote for me and I'll make your children buy your prescription drugs!

Vote for me and I'll lower your taxes!

Vote for me and I'll send rich white college kids to jail!

Vote for me and I'll raise your social security benefits!

Vote for me and I'll make your neighbors pay your college tuition!

Right or wrong, bribery clearly works and we're all on the take.

This kid is very brave to say this to his mom, I would not want to tell my mom this and I'm 50 years old! She would not react this way, but just the disappointed face would be bad enough. But I think she would accept me for who I am and then say, your name is in my bible.

@ Dzwonka: LMAO!!! Good one.

Think bribery doesn't work?

Syngas, you know that this comment is ridiculous. Silly boy. :)

As if changing one's basic beliefs about life, the universe, and everything can be compared to one's greed for money and power.

Is Jo short for Jo Ann?

For many, demanding everyone else to be forced to pay for things we want is a basic belief about life.


For you? I know that statement doesn't apply to me.

Having received a college education at a state subsidized school among other things, I have certainly been on the receiving end of the bribes politicians (some of whom I must have voted for) have offered. I don't feel I deserved any of it and I don't remember demanding any of it but by voting for politicians that promised it, I would be lying if I said my hands are clean.

My point is that when we demand that politicians implement things like universal health care, we are really demanding that our friends, family, neighbors etc... pay for our health care. When our government goes to the bond market and borrows money to pay for such programs, we are demanding that our children, grandchildren and perhaps great grandchildren pay for our health care and continue paying for our health care long after we have left this world.

Or we would rather see the money we worked for and payed to the government through taxes used for the things we want them to be used for instead of being used to help wealthy corporations get even richer.

By corporations do you mean shareholders? By shareholders do you mean mutual fund investors? By mutual fund investors do you mean IRA, 401K insurance annuities and pension plans? By IRA, 401k, insurance annuities and pension plans don't you mean us? Who is it that is getting richer?

Is that where our taxes should go? I must be confused I thought taxes were supposed to benefit all tax payers not just the ones with investments. So the people that pay taxes but can't afford to hold stock are SOL? Do you know what philosophy of government you're talking about? I'll give you a hint, it's not capitalism.

And yes I know capitalism isn't a governing philosophy.

Sorry Norm, just realized this is getting off topic.

Hi Syngas,

Yeah, Jo was me...


This is a common misunderstanding made by most Americans. They don't realize that universal health care actually benefits everyone. Americans pay more for health insurance and don't get any better health care than the countries who have universal health care coverage. Did you happen to read the link that Norm posted the other day? Here it is:

Thanks Jo Ann,

I just got the bill for the next six months of car insurance. From my perspective, my car insurance would cost less and be better if you paid for it instead of me. May I send you the bill?

Unrelated serious question: Where can I see some of your art?

Hi Syngas, I recently started a blog where I plan to discuss art and display my art work. So far I've only posted one painting.

Corporations, shareholders, insurance, health care -- what the hell were we talking about again?

Puff puff give, dude!

Jo Ann, There is a big difference from God and religion. Alot of people walk away from God because they were told a lie about who God is. It takes more faith to not believe in God than to believe in God. The God of Islam and Hindu is not the same God as the Bible. Just because someone calls themselves a Christian doesn't mean they are one. I can tell you I am a doctor, but don't trust me when it comes to helping you physically.
You know there is a God. The questions is, who is he? If you research atheism and evolution, you come to the conclusion that there is no proof behind such claims.
The fact is, one of these days you will die. 10 out of 10 do. What happens after death? There has got to be more to the equation. And there is. If you truly study the facts, you will find the truth. Do you consider yourself to be a good person? Have you ever told a lie? Have you ever stolen anything (be honest). If you have lied then you are a lier. If you've stolen something then you are a thief. God is a holy and just God. He will see that punishment is paid for the sins we have committed. Just like a criminal judge who sees that punishment is handed down, God will see to it as well. He knows the deep down insides of you. One of these days, you will die and face this holy God. What will you say to enter into heaven?


Don’t conflate guts for faith. Does it take more faith for a child to believe there is no Kris Kringle? It takes self honesty, is what it is!


There never has existed a testable way to determine the truthfulness of a belief in the supernatural. And if you cannot tell by the words of your fellow Christians, then anyone with minimal acting talent can deceive anyone, including monks, bishops, or popes. Take a look at the multitudes of people who believed Hitler to be a true Christian (including high ranking clergy men!) or Bush said by many to be following Christ’s commands upon clandestine revelations in his oval office. Hitler for example cited chapter and verse in his book Mein Kampf along with his own commentary of his religious beliefs—and he did this even after he established himself as absolute dictator, which would damage the argument that he did this only for political purposes. Bush’s initiatives are usually “guided” by scripture. Would you consider these people false Christians because they don’t follow what you consider to be the correct version of Christianity?

A false Christian and a real Christian makes absolutely no difference. Why? Because Christianity never represented reality, thus an honest believing Christian and a dishonest believing Christian fall on equal turf: they both have it wrong, and they both practice falsehoods!

You know there is a God.

Deep down, you know there really isn’t one.

See, we can all play these games of trying to read each other’s minds, but this proves futile. Simply because you are convinced by your own irrationality does not mean that you can then go out and place your own magical thinking onto others because you can’t conceive being in a state of rejection to the supernatural.

The questions is, who is he?

He? Aren’t we anthropomorphizing God like religion does? Shouldn’t you be more ambiguous in your approach? This of course leads to problems as not only may God be sexless, but there may be multiple Gods as there is no reason why thinking only one God exists is more rational over multiple ones.

What happens after death?

Only a believer could pretend to know such things—convinced by their convictions alone no less!

There has got to be more to the equation.

Wishful thinking does not lead to illumination of reality. How many times have we heard people say, “There has got to be more to my financial status than being middle class. I just know I’m destined to be rich!” Beliefs don’t just lead to superstition; they can also lead to false expectation.

And there is.

And, ergo, you’ve taken your fantasy and transformed it into reality in your mind.


Something I highly recommend you do from time to time. Just a suggestion.


Aside from stating the obvious, your argumentation reeks of Ray Comfort propaganda. Yes, I’m not perfect. Should I blame the faulty OS for having so many bugs or the designers who wasn’t careful enough to develop such imperfections? Freewill is not a wise copout for this discussion and has been debated to death.

God is a holy and just God.

Again, you are not imparting knowledge on an immeasurable concept without proof whatsoever. Do you wish for us to do this on faith alone? Belief is a prerequisite to accept any superstition. If I were to point out the injustice here on earth, from what buffet tray of crappy arguments would you choose from: freewill evasion or an appeal to incomprehensibility?

Quite sad that I have them memorized by now don’t you think?


“Not enough evidence God. Not enough evidence.”

--Bertrand Russell

Bertrand Russell, It seems that you are pointing the finger to everyone else. My guess is at one time you were a christian. Did you get hurt or something?? I wish you could see how good God is. It okay to attack what I say. It okay to even attack my beliefs. The problem is, what I believe is not because I believe it. I believe it because it is true. Is it possible that I was once where you are? Not saying I am any better, I just once questions whether God is real or not. I did spend two years studying whether there was a creator or not. I found myself fearing death because it didn't make sense to work so hard and then have everything including the ones you love snatched from you at some point and time. As far as your "faulty OS", that's called free choice. And sometimes we make stupid choices don't we. Freewill is a "logical" answer. You're not a robot. Is there such a thing as a conscience? Where did it come from? I'm really sorry that you haven't discovered the truth. The bible is true. You have a choice. What I don't understand is why do you attack my beliefs when you don't even know what you believe. Sure it's easy to say "You know there isn't a God" after I say you know there is. And reading a couple of books is supposed to change that? What about the scientific evidence? What about the historical evidence? You can attack me all you want, but that doesn't change the reality of God. If someone hurt you, don't take it out on me. All I can say is that I'm sorry you feel that way. The truth is, God loves you and that will never change. You can either accept it or not. When you take your last breath, you will see that I am correct on this "God thing". I don't wish for you to do this on faith alone. But I am willing to give you what I have found to support this faith that I have. Please, don't walk away from something when you have not studied the evidence.


Erick was quoting Bertrand Russel, not signing his name as such.. LOL

You have scientific evidence for God? Really?

Sorry, I am not familiar with the quote. Yes, Jo Ann, I can scientifically prove that there is a creator. That there is a superior being that is all powerful and eternal. My evidence is found in science...I don't even use the Bible to prove this. I have studied the evidence and found that there is proof without a doubt that we were created. That God does exist.

You claim to have a lot of "evidence" for God—scientific and historical no less! Where is this evidence? Saying life is beautiful does not make the Bible true. Saying that you cannot conceive of a life in which you work so hard only to have your life end doesn’t produce any truth to your wishful thinking. You then go on to prove my point. You change the word "freewill" to "free choice" and then use the former later on in your writing. I knew you were going to use this, which is why I posted it sarcastically in my prior comment. You theists really have got to produce better arguments than the ones you’ve held on to. These have been refuted ad nauseam and I won’t do your homework for you. I also don’t know why you insist that I want to take some kind of frustration out on you. I am criticizing your arguments, not you as a person. Moreover, any other person of faith from any other religion can claim to be right after we all die. You’re arguments reek of Pascal’s Wager and other mindless gibberish.

To second syngas...AND?

Scientists prefer natural explanations to supernatural ones, not because of any metaphysical bias on their part, but because natural explanations produce more understanding than supernatural ones. As Plato realized, to say that God did it is not to explain anything, but simply to offer an excuse for not having an explanation.

--Theodore Schick, Jr.


Ya so i went to that way of the master site. I had to close out of it because I didn't want to risk splitting my guy open with all my laughing!! I didn't think I'd actually ever stumble across somebody using the atheist's banana reasoning!!! Absolutely priceless! For anybody to actually take that site seriously you would need to be as gullible... as well a banana. What really got me going though is that they said they were going out to talk to evolution experts... and then just walked up to random people off the streets!! Well what a surprise when they don't know much about the exact details?! Did they go to university and get a phD in biology?

Anyways, I could keep going but I've got to go study about things that the church would have burnt me alive for knowing. Later

Eric, You're addressing David, not xyrox (The poster's name is beneath the post).

Anyway, I went to the site also. When David says "My evidence is found in science...I don't even use the Bible to prove this", it comes from this website. It's not "his" evidence, but the nonsense from this website.

The introduction at wayofthemaster, which will supposedly provide "scientific evidence" offers up the following statements:

"Did you know that everyday people die?"

When they asked this question, I was like, "No way! Get outta here! Everyday people die? I never knew that! Anyway, they go on to say:

We can finish the age old debate of intelligent design vs evolution.

Can you believe it? After all we've been reading all of these past years, the people at this websife have finished this age old debate!

And how do they do that?

We can prove there's a God without realtion to faith or mentioning the Bible... It's the powerful principle of bypassing the intellect..

LOL... Like Eric, I about split a gut.

that is because all of the crap they teach in christianity about how is the God has or had a son and he sent it to be killed for all the people sins ...and u are a natural born sinner ...that drive people away from god he is there whether u agree or not he is there and here.. but he only does not have any children and he loves all the people (and i can not stress that point enough) about islam

For me, the most frustrating thing when debating religion with people like David above is that they seem to think of Atheism as a rejection of God. I don't reject God; I see no evidence for anything supernatural. That is why I lump Santa, souls and Satan together as equally foolish ideas.

Here is my statement...What you believe is fine. I'm not going to sit here and tell you your wrong for believing what you want. Like I said earlier, you can attack me all you want. It doesn't matter. I used to be right where you are. Again, not saying I'm better. I used to argue with people over what was true and false. All I am stating is that I have proof that there is a God. There is a creator. Whether you believe it or not is totally up to you. If you want to be and atheist, that's fine. But if you examine the evidence you will find that there is a creator. The problem is when you don't even look with an open mind that it's possible what I am saying is true. Example: bacterial flagellum? When I first saw this I could tell it was designed. Over the last 50 years scientist have uncovered evidence that the universe did not happen by chance. The laws of physics, like gravity...if it were to change slightly, life would not exist. Scientist no longer believe that the earth is eternal, they believe it had a beginning. If the universe was caused, then there was an effect. The Earth...its size is perfect. The Earth's size and corresponding gravity holds a thin layer of mostly nitrogen and oxygen gases, only extending about 50 miles above the Earth's surface. If Earth were smaller, an atmosphere would be impossible, like the planet Mercury. If Earth were larger, its atmosphere would contain free hydrogen, like Jupiter. Earth is the only known planet equipped with an atmosphere of the right mixture of gases to sustain plant, animal and human life. The Earth is located the right distance from the sun. Consider the temperature swings we encounter, roughly -30 degrees to +120 degrees. If the Earth were any further away from the sun, we would all freeze. Any closer and we would burn up. Even a fractional variance in the Earth's position to the sun would make life on Earth impossible. The Earth remains this perfect distance from the sun while it rotates around the sun at a speed of nearly 67,000 mph. It is also rotating on its axis, allowing the entire surface of the Earth to be properly warmed and cooled every day. And our moon is the perfect size and distance from the Earth for its gravitational pull. The moon creates important ocean tides and movement so ocean waters do not stagnate, and yet our massive oceans are restrained from spilling over across the continents. The alternative to God existing is that all that exists around us came about by natural cause and random chance. If someone is rolling dice, the odds of rolling a pair of sixes is one thing. But the odds of spots appearing on blank dice is something else. What Pasteur attempted to prove centuries ago, science confirms, that life cannot arise from non-life. Where did human, animal, plant life come from?

Also, natural causes are an inadequate explanation for the amount of precise information contained in human DNA. A person who discounts God is left with the conclusion that all of this came about without cause, without design, and is merely good fortune. It is intellectually wanting to observe intricate design and attribute it to luck. Listen, make up your own mind. I'm not going to tell you that your stupid for not believing in God.

Just because I believe in God, don't consider me to be a religious person. I am not. I just wanted to know for myself if there was a creator. I spent two years of my life traveling the world, studying evidence that (I concluded) led me to believe without a doubt that we were created. Whether you believe that or not is up to you. I do find it interesting that over 300 scientist at various colleges over the US (Cambridge, Stanford, Cornell, Yale, Rutgers, Chicago, Princeton, Purdue, Michegan, Syracuse, Temple, and Berkeley) Among them was the director of the Center for Computational Quantum Chemistry and scientists at the Plasma Physics Lab at Princeton, the National Museum of Natural History at the Smithsonian Institute, and the Los Alamos National Laboratory. They all want the world to know that they believe that the universe was created. Why is it that the integrated complexity of the biological world, prompted world famous atheist Antony Flew to believe in a Creator. Believe what you want, just don't get God and religion mixed up. I hate religion. People do a lot of stupid things in the name of religion. So Jo Ann your wrong, I don't get my sources from that website. Make fun of it, that doesn't bother me. Is it possible to believe in God and not be religious? Now I will state, that I believe in Jesus, that's a whole other story, but that again is based on what I have researched. Whether you believe, is up to you. It seems that you are always stating how "christians" are always infringing there beliefs on people. They are always telling people that there beliefs are wrong, but why then do you do that to me. Why do you critisize what I believe. If you don't believe it, whatever. Don't be like the people that you put down for critisizing you. And about Islam, study there history too. You will find that Allah came from the Pagan moon god Hubal. Hubal was associated with the Semitic god BA'L [Baal]. But hey, who am I to say. Just study it out for yourself. Malcolm, don't be frustrated. I don't judge you. All I am saying is look at the evidence. Then, decide for yourself.


-George Sim Johnson

David, All of the arguements you put forward have been disproven elsewhere. The majority of them appear to revolve around the old "the Earth is perfect for life, so it must have been designed" crock (It has a formal title, but I can't recall it right now). If the Earth were the centre of the universe you might have an arguement. Its not, you don't. The statistical probability of at least one planet anywhere in the universe having these conditions is one.

As for flagella, every part of the flagella has another function within the bacteria. It is a perfect example of evolution in action.

Next time you go looking for evidence, try staying away from the religious crackpot sites. Or at least check that it hasn't already been debunked before posting it.

P.s. Your quote only proves that George Sim Johnson doesn't understand the mechanics of evolution. Evolution is not random. Mutation may be random.

Tell me where they have been proven elsewhere. Show me facts. I am always open. I believe your sources are old. George Gallop said, "I could prove God statistically. Take the human body alone: the chance that all the functions of the individual would just happen is a statistical monstrosity." Even the U.S. News and World Report stated in the late 90s, "new scientific revelations about supernovas, black holes, quarks, and the big bang even suggest to many scientist that there is a 'grand design' in the universe". Even Einstein stated, "Everyone who is seriously interested in the pursuit of science becomes convinced that a spirit is manifest in the laws of the universe--a spirit vastly superior to man, and one in the face of which our modest powers must feel humble." In Michael J Behe's (a biochemistry professor and evolutionist) book, "Darwin's Black Box", he refers to a "powerful challenge to Darwinian evolution"--something he refers to as "irreducible complexity." He stated, "If it could be demonstrated that any complex organ existed which could not possibly have been formed by numerous successive, slight modifications, my theory would absolutely break down." (Origin of Species) The eye, for example, cannot be reduced to anything less than what it is. It has thousands of co-equal functions to make it work. If we take away just one of those functions, the rest of the eye is worthless. How then did the eye evolve when all functions had to be present at once to make you see? The probability that the eye evolved is ludicrous. If you bleed, platelets promote the clotting process by clumping together and forming a plug at the site of a wound and releasing proteins called "clotting factors". These proteins start a series of chemical reactions that are extremely complicated. Every step of the process must go smoothly. If one of the clotting factors is missing, the clotting process doesn't work. A serious genetic disorder known as hemophilia results from this defect. Because hemophiliacs lack one of the clotting factors, they may bleed uncontrollably from even small scrapes. What about the fossil record? Have you studied that? If we came from apes, where is the half human, half ape fossil record? You aren't giving me information that is helping me. There you go Malcolm thinking that I get my sources from religious sites. Study it for yourself. Find facts that back your statements. The truth is most scientist believe that evolution is a joke. Sir Fred Hoyle, professor of astronomy at Cambridge University concluded, "The likelihood of the formation of life from inanimate matter is one out of 10 to the 40,000 power." When I started my two year journey of evidence, I wanted to prove that God didn't exist, but after examining the evidence, I can no longer state that. Again, believe what you want. That's your choice. You will not convince me that there is not a creator. I can't refute the evidence.

Erick, I think your trying to prove something, I'm not just sure what. Showing a few pictures and stating that we can't live on Jupiter?? You can do better than that. Even Charles Darwin stated, "To suppose the eye could have been formed by natural selection, seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest degree." I understand that the world is broken. That's where my search into christianity led me to believe in Jesus. Believe what you want. I still can't refute that we were designed.

David, You're the one using old sites if you are quoting Gallop or Behe as proof of anything. I'll give you a hint; Intelligent design sites are religous sites. The most certainly aren't scientific sites.

Gallop obviously doesn't understand either evolution or statistics if he says "Take the human body alone: the chance that all the functions of the individual would just happen is a statistical monstrosity". In evolution things don't just happen. Given the time frame, and the number of posible locations in the universe where it could have happened, the probability of a lifeform as complex as a human evolving approaches one. This only becomes a problem when you start to believe that the human is some pinnicle of design. A quick biology course should clear that one up.

Micheal Behe, who is most certainly not an "evolutionist", has yet to show that anything in nature is "irreducibly complex". Every example that he has come up with, the eye, flagella, etc, has been shot down.

If you don't understand how clotting or the eye could evolve, take a first year biochemistry course.

You obviously haven't studied the fossil record at all, or you would realise that it is full of evolutionary stages between man and ape.

"The truth is most scientist believe that evolution is a joke." That one made me laugh out loud. Evolution is the cornerstone of all biological science. That is why the ID nutcases can't get anywhere in the US. The truth is most scientist are atheists who know evolution is correct.

Again the statistical thing. I suggest that if you are looking for real evidence you need to study some science and stats.

"I can't refute the evidence." That isn't a sign that it is irrefutible, because it really is easy if you try.

Here's somewhere to get you started.

David, your copy n paste arguments really are uncompelling. The fact that you even misquote Darwin with the infamous "eye" comment is laughable!


The fact that you even ask us for evidence is absurd as you are the one with the burden of proof. I have debated theists with far better arguments than your old, rehashed, Dr. Dino FAQ ones.

Spare us your bullshit.

You keep stating that since Gallop and George Sim Johnson's beliefs are not in line with yours, that they don't understand evolution. The website you stated does not show evidence. It's just someone stating there beliefs. As far as the fossil record. Give me the evidence on that. Isn't it funny that on the evolutionary "fossil record" that nearly all experts agree that "Lucy was just a 3 foot tall chimp. And that the "Heidelberg man" was built from a jawbone that was conceded by many to be quite human. What about the "Nebraska man" that was scientifically built up from one tooth. Oh yeah, that tooth was later found to be the tooth of an extinct pig. The "Piltdown Man"'s jawbone turned out to belong to a modern ape. The "Peking Man" is supposedly 500,000 years old, but all evidence has disappeared. The "Neanderthal Man"--At the international Congress of Zoology, Dr. A.J.E Cave said his examination showed that this famous skeleton found in France over 50 years ago is that of an old man who suffered from arthritis. Then there is the "New Guinea Man" that dates way back to 1970. This species was found in the region just north of Australia. The "Cro-Magnon Man" was one of the earliest and best established fossils that is at least equal in physique and brain capacity to modern what's the difference. There you go again, thinking that everyone who is for intelligent design is religious. You are still not giving evidence. The website is just bologna. I've been there before. You can do better than that.

Here's you a website that you can chew on. You still have not convinced me.


Absurd? Oh my bad, I thought you were involved in the debate. Hey, believe what you want. I thought you were bringing something to the table. I'm sorry. I think I stick to believing those who are professionals in there field.

So what is there in that there field? Hot diggety dog. I got me here some science to prove that my illusions are true.

Jo Ann, you're really sounding like someone who wants to examine the evidence. The field of science. There you go again critisizing me for what I believe. You're really not looking at the evidence. Hey, that's fine. Again, believe what you want. What is funny is that just because you don't believe in creation, that doesn't change the fact that it is true.

ps.. if I prove that my illusions are true, does that make them a reality?


Exactly Jo Ann. In psychology it is known as confirmation bias.

And will you stop with your "not looking at the evidence." So far you have misquoted people or providing falsehood depictions of science like saying that "the chance that all the functions of the individual would just happen is a statistical monstrosity," as if science ever made the claim that everything magic-happened--that's religion's job. If these are the type of arguments you are serious using to engage in debate with us forget it! I've debated far more compelling theists.


You don't need to prove to us that your illusions are true. If you tell us that you really hold a belief that you're Napoleon, we'll take your word on it.

Keep telling yourself that.

Like I said David, study some science. Please.

And if you are going to make statements like "Isn't it funny that on the evolutionary "fossil record" that nearly all experts agree that "Lucy was just a 3 foot tall chimp." you might want to be able to back that up.

"I think I stick to believing those who are professionals in there field." That's really funny. If that's the case, why do you keep quoting people who aren't talking about their specialist fields. If you want a professional in their field, try talking to a biologist or a statistian.

"You're really not looking at the evidence." I don't know about Jo Ann, but I'm still waiting for you to provide any that hasn't been thoroughly debunked.



bingo, sir thomas. you have hit the nail on the proverbial head and encased it in a gilded nutshell. (somebody slap me.)

i remember norm posting an audio clip not too long ago that had a jewish mother and father berating their daughter for going out with a (non jewish) italian boy. the language used, and the duration and intensity were far more extreme (and more personally embarrasing to me as a jew) than that shown by the mother here.

but i remember thinking at the time exactly what you imply here- that there's a difference between concerns of conformity or "what will the neighbors think", and true belief (or racism, in the case of the jewish family).

true, the difference is often academic, especially if you're on the receiving end of the tirade, but it can come into play if any real level of dialogue is achieved with the "sinner" (and by this i mean the believer/racist) in question. that is, in a nutshell i guess, it helps to know if you're dealing with someone who's main concern is what you think, or what their friends and community think. you can tailor your arguments accordingly.

they both suck, of course.

and malcolm: i wouldn't want to get between erick and david (i'd be crushed like a bug) but in the interests of fyi, heres something i saw on the front page of the israeli papers a few days ago. i believe its a fairly recent "revelation" regarding lucy. just interesting, thats all.

What David is not aware of is that we have all read Behe and company's arguments and we all know that everything he's presented has been debunked.

But going beyond all of this, there was a question posed by someone on another website some time ago that none of the believers in God ever answered. I've asked this question here before, but no believer ever answered it. Maybe David has the answer.

If God exists, who invented Him? If God is beyond invention, why would it not be the same for the universe? When science has provided an explanation for what is before the Big Bang, will you adapt your current story, or stick with it? How do you know that there is an infinity before the Big Bang? Was that infinity created by God? If yes, how can it be called infinity since it was created? If not, infinity must have been self-created, so what did God do? I am all ears.

DAVID above is on (unfortunately) firmer ground with his Physics than he is with his Physical Anthropology/Fossil Man-age-ment. He is either unbelievably ignorant and keeps up with NOTHING in the popular press about early hominids, hominoids, pithecanthropes, Paleoanthropes, Neanthropes* , etc.(not to mention books, nevermind Scientific Journals), or he is a purposefully phoney fraud. I see no hint that he is joking.

I think he deserves first prize for being the poster- with-the-least-credibility on this blog or any of its kind, for this alone. He is truly:

Homo Igoramibus.

*confusingly Neander-(Neanthro-)thal Man is the type-speci"man" of PALEO-andropic Man. Go figure. Neander Valley was named for the pious Christian Composer/Preacher, Neumann, who had studied Latin, Hebrew, and changed his name to...

Greek: Neander.

Sorry, but: is it not the First amendment that guarantees us the right to 'Free Association'?

Thanks Jonathan, Interseting article.

As for David and Erick, I don't see David do much crushing. Definitely one of the more light-weight posters on OGM.

"jonathan becker: i wouldn't want to get between erick and david (i'd be crushed like a bug)"

Oh I'm not doing most of the talking johnathan, so go ahead and intervene. I'm just sitting back and enjoying David's sales pitch. It's like one of those infomercials where you know they're selling crap, but you just can't look away. :)

jonathan becker: "i believe its a fairly recent "revelation" regarding lucy. just interesting, thats all"

Thanks for the article. I'd be interested in what will unfold because of this in the future. Though I have to say that Toumai replaced Lucy a while back.

Jo Ann: [quote] "If God exists, who invented Him? If God is beyond invention, why would it not be the same for the universe?"

Funny enough I actually heard this yesterday in a video clip from Carl Sagan I was watching on youtube. I've also heard this argument used by Sam Harris in a debate with Dennis Prager. (Speaking of Harris, if you haven't seen the final entry he made in his debate with Andrew Sullivan go here.)

"There you go again critisizing me for what I believe."
-- David

Spoken like a true gentlem... -- uh sorry, "fucktard" was the word I was actually looking for.

And BTW, I'm still the Son Of God, so have you gotten your money together yet? I'm thinking one of them wire transfer things might be convenient.

God seriously wants your money -- or I do. I need it. I need it to buy some drugs so I can cope with the mindless fucking bullshit you post on this website.

Bitch better have my money.

Kenny G. baby.

Again, keep tell yourselves that. LOL. Keep finding replacements for you made up fossil record.

David, The fossil record is certainly standing up better than your so called proof that God exists.

Everyone, please just let this post die before David comes back with more of his "I know you are but what am I" comments.


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