

Italy's election

Send in the clowns

How Beppe Grillo and Silvio Berlusconi threaten the future of Italy and the euro

See article

Readers' comments


Giovanni II Bentivoglio

I don't think a great historical country as Italy needs the suggestions of people that don't know what a bidet is.


I continue to read and wonder, wonder about how polarizing or maybe deliberately misleading (?) the headers of many of the leading European newspapers can be. Some of the leading European newspapers seem to have started a disinformation-war on Beppe Grillo and the MoVimento 5 Stelle (Five Star Movement) and the vote of the Italian people in general and do not seem to accept and respect the decision of a (so far still) souvereign European country even though statements like "German-imposed austerity" suggest that it might not continue to be for very much longer. Why does it seem to be so difficult for politicians and newspapers of the Western European countries alike to aknowledge the fact that the Italians in this election have decided to address first and foremost their own internal problems instead of bothering about the stability of the Euro, and the well-being of the international financial markets? Unfortunately I have only 5000 characters in this comment, which will not be enough, otherwise I would have loved to inform you about the background and manifesto of the movement of Beppe Grillo and why more than 25 % of the Italians, according to statistics, the biggest share of whom well informed and highly educated, decided to give their vote to this movement, especially when considering that the leading European newspapers seem to systematically refuse to do so.

Apart from this I would like to point out some of the polarizing (or deliberately misleading (?)) information in this article:

1) "a quarter of the electorate - a post war record - did not even bother to show up". The actual turnout in this Italian election was 75%, but only 71% in Germany's last election and a sensationally low 65& in the UK in 2010.

2) "almost 30 % endorsed Silvio Berlusconi" and "by contrast, Mario Monti [...] got a measly 10 %". Wrong: the PdL/Berlusconi were endorsed by 21.56% and Mario Monti by 8.30 % (which is even measlier), the COALITION led by Berlusconi's PdL received almost 30 % (29.18 %)! This is not just finickiness, but an essential difference and makes clear how little the Italian electoral system has been understood by most of the journalists of European newspapers that claim to want to inform their readership. If I may put the result of the Italian election into the "order of strongest party" according to a truly democratic electoral system, you might be surprised: First and strongest party with 25.55% of the Italian votes: MoVimento 5 Stelle led by Beppe Grillo, second party PD led by Bersani with 25.42% and 21.56% for the PdL led by Berlusconi. What the Italians got instead was a "winner" of the elections called Bersani and his centre-left-coalition which can now claim 292 seats in the Chamber of Deputies, almost three times (!) as much as the Movimento 5 Stelle/ Grillo who gets 108 seats with only 0.10 % less votes than the PD/Bersani thanks to a fiercely unfair and undemocratic electoral system, last manipulated by Berlusconi a few years back to favour his then ruling party.

Strangely enough a Mario Monti did not succeed to address one of the most symptomatic of all of Italy's problems, maybe because it was not a direct threat to a further destabilisation of the Euro and the stock-markets? ergo not to worry about in the first place in the self-deception called "restabilisation of the Italian economy" better to be called "further impoverishment of the Italian population". Let's hope that finally the internal reforms, the Italian population desperately wants and needs, will be tackled and at last implemented, also thanks to the result of this election and the aims of the MoVimento 5 Stelle.

Forza Italiani!

pumpernickel _ in reply to cesano


Thank you for explaining the facts. With the help of Google I now understand about the Coalition led by Berlusconi. Mike Casella is right. Anybody voting for any of the Coalition parties would vote for Berlusconi, except that Lega Norte or any other coalition partner could withdraw their support, as happened last time, and Berlusconi then might again be ejected, therefore, such a Coalition is unstable.

If it were not for his declared intention to leave the Euro, A Beppe Grillo could also win an election in Germany hands down. Such a “clown" would come in handy in our country where the anger with the established parties offering no choice may lead a lot of otherwise middle of the road voters to vote for Die Linke communists in protest next September who then would be strong enough to form a coalition with the SPD Socialists, with or without the Greens, who are on the decline for being a silly not credible bunch.

There is, in fact, a new party in the budding in Germany, “Alternative für Deutschland” with Olaf Henkel one of the founders, which may provide a Grillo like aternative and may replace the FDP and Greens and give the SPD and CDU a hard time. They are not entirely anti-Euro but go for a split along North/South perimeters. Watch out for them.

MilovanDjilas in reply to cesano

Italy is doomed and you of the M5S have pulled the plug.
Within 12 months, there will be mass numbers of people searching for food in the dumpsters. Thank you. I personally cannot afford a meltdown of the Italian economy in this moment.

cesano in reply to Mike Casella

and in your opinion that is a good system to support and maintain? If I vote for yellow, but yellow is part of blue and grey, I get all three of them, if I want or not? Italians have to vote for a coalition which after the elections then has to form an even bigger coalition in order to get a majority without considering real majorities given to parties by the electorate... this stinks and has to be changed! and this is maybe also what people expressed with the result of the elections.

Mike Casella in reply to cesano

I'm not judging the system: I'm simply describing how it works.
I see to many people here believing that an Administration can solve many of their problems.
It's time to count on one's skills.

the Good Doctor

Sirs, I take strong exception to your wording. Democratic expression in any country should always be respected, even when negatively viewed. I am frankly not interested in the slight against the two characters, as much as in the implied reference to mental sanity of whoever voted for them. It would have been conceited and rude even if one had had any reason to feel in any way superior.
But the worst part is the lack of vision on the part of your columnist. In 1789 the French let the Kings know they did not any longer believe that the Lord had given them the right to govern and establish taxes. In 2013 the Italian People has served notice that the People will not any longer sign a blank cheque for politician to do as they please. Even the refusal by Grillo to grant support "sight-unseen" to any government is in the exact same line. I would be surprised if other Countries did not shortly follow that example, as unfortunately all Countries, in varying degrees, collect money to give it to their paymasters the Banks (short for Financial Institutions). You might call it the "Italian Spring".
I call it "the Italian Revolution", and we did not even cut one single head!

No, you cut off your nose to spite your face.

I suppose your family are millionaires with money stored abroad so that you can withstand the collapse of our economy when sovereign yields shoot up to 10% and the Italian banks shut down the ATM's. Bravo!


After the Middle-Age we have created the Renaissance.
After the congress of Vienna we have made the Risorgimento.
After 1943 we have made the Resistance.
Also this time will be a rebirth... Italians will made Revolution!

MilovanDjilas in reply to Italianpride

I notice Grillo is not laughing any more.

Neither are the rest of us.

Is that your "revolution"? "Laughing" at our debts and economic distress while you spoilt little university students tear down the system? I know dozens of business owners who are now concretely attempting to leave the country - and not just moving their business, but also attempting to move the family out.

Ed the Ed in reply to Italianpride

you forgot to mention the pre-1943 Italy ... si, c'era Lui, Benito M. e la nuova creazione italiana,il fascismo.
Ma .. non incolpare la storia, L'Italia è un splendido paese nonostante il sovradosaggio di comunisti, socialisti, sindacalistie altri disonori.
With some luck Berlusco will come back and bring some order in the house.

Mario Ferretti in reply to Italianpride

I wish God may have mercy on you. I've spent most of the latest 50 years within Italy's Universities: enough to see them grow into mass factories of illiterate pompous asses, addicted to self-righteously pretending knowledge and wisdom while hardly capable to understand whatever it is that they read. That's what Mr Grillo appears to be harvesting right now. Enjoy!

MilovanDjilas in reply to Mario Ferretti

A post of yours I can endorse whole-heartedly.
Except to say that, despite the exaltation and self-importance of the grillini, pampered students seeking a destructive revolution is not exactly a new phenomenon in world history.

MilovanDjilas in reply to Italianpride

The Renaissance only occurred because someone in Italy actually started reading the documents held in our libraries.

The Risorgimento was sponsored by England, not by Italians.

The Resistance was only born after the Americans invaded Italy. There was no Resistance for 20 years of dictatorship.

This Rebirth will be of Communist dictatorship, certainly not the economy.

Mario Ferretti in reply to MilovanDjilas

"pampered students seeking a destructive revolution" is a fit description of Italy's 1969 "hot autumn" and what followed it. We are still footing the bill of that. Yet, at least, they are not using violence now. And they lack the blinding influence of Marxist ideology. Maybe things will be less nasty this time.

MehrAlsSinnLos in reply to Italianpride

"After 1943 we have made the Resistance."

You mean you created the myth of an Italian Resistance.
Once the Aliied troops had done all the dirty work.
No wonder no one trusted your country. Neither the Germans
nor the Allies.

"Also this time will be a rebirth..."

Yeah, Yeah, of course the rebirth of the great Italian Nation
(not seen since over 500 years).

Yawn. Tell me - Do we really have to care?


I think you're not ignorant, you know that Grillo IS NOT A CLOWN.
You're just a part, and Mario Monti too, of that system called LOBBY

Stefano Rollero

Here is a striking example of misinformation organized.
You are stupid not to distinguish: Berlusconi a boorish character affected escaping justice.
Beppe Grillo is a new signal, a break with proposals that revitalize the country, to generate new ideas and stimulate growth with honesty.
Ecco un esempio lampante di disinformazione organizzata e prezzolata.
E' tupido non distinguere: Berlusconi un becero personaggio, entrato in politica per fuggire la giustizia.
Beppe Grillo ed il MoVimento Cinque Stelle è un nuovo segnale, una discontinuità con il vecchio sistema della politica corrotta e di casta, promuove proposte capaci di rivitalizzare il Paese, di generare nuove idee e stimolo per la crescita vera. L'occasione che si presenta è straordinaria per costruire una società più sana e giusta.
Stefano Rollero, Turin

Yidali_ren in reply to Stefano Rollero

They're both populist characters that don't have a clue how to solve Italy's debt problem. Sounds like a good reason to lump them together, from TE point of view. Also, bear in mind that TE is simply using the sentence by Merkel's challenger to attract more attention. This strategy seems to have worked, if the number of comments in this post section is anything to go by

Banana Republic

The comic the has matured to become clown has proposed the 3 top priorities. 1 Italy exit out of EU 2: Legalizing Cannabis 3; Removing ownership taxes from sale of vehicle . Not bad for a country that i serious economic difficulty. Clown 2: please do something and save us, we will forgive all your parties with prostitutes ect..

Yidali_ren in reply to Banana Republic

Why did such a small percentage of Italians vote for Monti? Many Italians abroad like me did. It's not a rhetorical question.
I know it inflicted a lot of pain with the spending review, but is this the only reason you didn't vote for him? He could have implemented reforms to improve growth in the medium term. Why did only 10% of Italians vote for him (half as much as the votes from Italians abroad)?
(Please, don't mention the usual 'he's Goldman Sachs/German servant' bulls**t)

the Good Doctor in reply to Yidali_ren

You wouldn't ask the question if you did live in Italy: the whole Country has ground to a halt, and it's getting worse by the day.
In another of your comments you sneer at these new people not being able to solve Italy's debt. Does Mrs. Merkel know, in your opinion? Austerity is a policy sufferable, even desirable, when the economy is buoyant, not when it is in a recession. Look at Japan, USA, Brazil, China: they are all increasing their debt. If there is another way out of recession, they still have to invent it.
And try to discover something about the *undeclared* exchange rate war. The above mentioned Countries are in fact covertly trying to surreptitiously devalue their currencies (lower their exchange rates) in order to favour their own exports. Oh, by the way, the same game as Mr. Cameron is playing...
Why is Europe not playing it? Simple: if Germany did not have the other Euro countries to balance it, its currency would go to 1.55 (against the present 1.25) against the dollar. Germany is staying competitive thanks to the austerity it is enforcing on Ireland, Portugal, Greece, Italy, Spain, France, in short almost any other EUR country. The exception being a handful of Northern Europe countries who believe they have solid economies. In fact they are starting to notice that when Europeans have no more money left to buy BMWs and Nokias, their exports begin to suffer too. It won't take long before they realize they are smarting too.
In total, the game is quite different from the public debt which is put at the forefront. The solution is not austerity. The cure has killed the patient, so it was worse than the illness.
The only way to have a viable Europe, and I would dearly love to see it in my lifetime, is through a political union, with a single economic policy. A single currency is "a small step for mankind, worse than nothing for Europe", just to paraphrase Mr. Amstrong on the Moon.

Yidali_ren in reply to the Good Doctor

I understand your point, please do not think that I think who voted for Grillo/Berlusconi is a dumbass. If you look at other comments of mine below you will find that I do think Germany is gaining a lot from the Euro and the Germans should bear in mind that a collapse of the Euro would be catastrophic for the whole of Europe. I totally agree with you with regard to the political union.

However, you must admit that after 20 years of Berlusconi's 'figure di merda' it's weird a large part of Italians still vote for him. Grillo is different, but he's a loose cannon. Monti is the only one with enough credibility and competence to solve the situation, and if given time he could finally convince Angela to push more for growth.

PS: don't fool yourself, if Southern Europeans don't buy BMWs the Chinese will.

MilovanDjilas in reply to Yidali_ren

The Good Doctor is right. The country is grinding to a halt. All of us have work, but nobody is getting paid. I am owed €10,000 for work already delivered (in some cases 8 months ago) and am having difficulty finding money for petrol to get to work/jobs etc. And I am one of the "lucky" ones.
Do you know what it means, being in your mid-40's and calling another friend to say, "Listen, have you got 10 euros to lend me for petrol money to get to work?" and hearing "I was just going to call to ask you the same thing."
And, I am living in one of the richest areas of the country, where unemployment is at 6.5%.

Banana Republic in reply to Yidali_ren

very simple: In Italy we have delinquents, idiots and ignorant's. They make up the majority of the population.Very small number voted for him because they believed the propaganda machine that is run bu Berlsuconi and all the bull that Grillo has proposed. Therefore Italians deserve 100% what they get. The European bank should stop buying Italian bonds until they are a credible nation. Today I can confirm that Italy is worse than Greece; Italy remains the most dangerous economy supported by at least 16 million clowns

Yidali_ren in reply to Banana Republic

Dear Banana Republic, do you really think that Italians are in trouble simply because of an 'immoral corrupt system'? It doesn't help, that's obvious, but surely China is also corrupt (as far as I can see, maybe even worse than Italy), and they're doing great. Italians are in trouble because the world is changing, and the competition from developing economies is very fierce. The problem is that Italians haven't understood that the only way forward is a more liberal labour market.

Yidali_ren in reply to MilovanDjilas

Nope, I do not know what it feels like (luckily for me), but that's not the point. The point is that things won't get better with SB or Grillo. I completely agree that Monti hasn't done what was needed quickly enough, and "austerity only" measures are not the way forward. But not having a government, or having SB or Grillo at the helm of Italy right now is NOT what Italy needs!
That's (I think) what most of the foreigners in this comment section are trying to highlight (some of them not very politely, but there you go...)

MilovanDjilas in reply to Yidali_ren

Yidali - I voted for Vendola/Bersani. And I would generally agree with this last post.

Monti got few votes exactly BECAUSE he was sponsored by the Vatican and Merkel. People are tired (silently) of meddling by the Roman Curia.

Monti lost because he never should have run in the first place. He went back on his word. If he had remained above the fray, Italy would be governable today. He bears no little responsibility for this mess. He was a shoo-in to become President of the Republic, where he would have been far more influential in determining policy - albeit behind the scenes.


1) I personally have never voted for Silvio. I spent 1994-2008 directly involved in politics, campaigning every year against Silvio. I largely gave up in 2008 when the idiot leaders of the Left in this country attempted to impose a two-party system on the country - an operation I never agreed with.

2) At no time has Berlusconi ever had a majority in the country - although he has had a majority in Parliament at different times.

3) "Immoral, corrupt system". Are you dictatorial? Are you a Communist? In Mediterranean history corrupt democracy has always alternated with ever more corrupt dictatorship.
In attempting to destroy the Italy of today (and not reform it) Grillo is sure to merely usher in a period of even more corrupt dictatorship. Do you see any significant internal democracy within the M1S movement?

Simple pragmatism; investors are not stupid, they are quite good in seeing the trees from the forest. They have seen the clowns a lot sooner than the economist.
They realize that Italy and Greece are in a downward spiral. Italy and Greece both adopted austerity measure (increase taxes and reduce government spending) rather than addressing system weakness.The cure adopted is actually worse that the disease.
The cure adopted by Monti showed a patient with rosy cheeks but deep down the serious disease remains (nearly terminal)
In Italy the fiscal lever does not work; the negative elements of the system outweigh the positive elements; therefore instead of addressing critical elements like corruption, tax evasion and in-efficient government; they raised taxes which had a direct impact on economic growth. Italy does not even have a centralized procurement system; therefore major price difference even up to 20 times for something like a syringe. Government pays 3 times what private citizen pays for iPAD. The value of corruption, tax evasion and bad government is between 130 -150 billion per year, and still have not touched costly government structure (including the EU parliament we have 6 levels).
Then other aspects like education and justice system require restructuring, school system is in 24 place (last in EU) and we do not have 1 university in first 100. Addressing these negative elements rather than increasing taxes is what politicians and economists should strive for.

Banana Republic in reply to Yidali_ren

Yes but China has its unique currency and independent economy and therefore can address economic policy changes. Corruption has a cost; if you are not able to overcome the negative costs of corruption you then have an economy that is out of balance; easy to deflate currency like China to then solve the problem. In Italy cannot do this

Yidali_ren in reply to MilovanDjilas

Fair enough. I agree Monti should have tried to stay aside and then try to be called by Bersani, preferably as economics minister. Honestly I don't really trust Vendola's economic views in times like this...

Yidali_ren in reply to Banana Republic

I agree with you, but changing Italian culture takes (a long) time...a couple of good labour market reforms would (with a bit of help from the trade unions) have an impact in the medium term. As for the Euro...I guess we should have thought about this 20 years ago, now it's way too late!


Definitely not an option. A union with b*nkers like you. No way.
Otherwise we need to finish what our grandfathers couldn't.
Afterall, all good things are 3. And Italy has it coming anyway. :-)


Italian politics has always been uneasy to understand by non Italian people because of its excessive theatricality. Given also that political books and articles are plenty of prejudices or sided with some of parts, it is really hard for readers to have a better idea about all of it. I strongly suggest then a very interesting satirical novel about Italian politics which makes a joke of all parties as well as the key actors of the last few years of the Belpaese political life. “Italian Star Wars” is its name. Enjoy!

Scott_P in reply to VValentinAA

The problem is not the prejudices of "non italian" people. Italian people do a great job on their own. Do you agree that italian politics and voters reflect the same antisocial behaviour of an average "condominio"?

Alexander Von Thorn

I'm a very, very disappointed old and faithful subscriber by your cover. You are not just commenting on Italian elections, your are insulting the Italian people which - as you can have heard sometimes - is free to vote in whatever way like. More, mr. Grillo is not 'a clown', mr. Grillo gave back hope to people fed up and disgusted by politics and made partecipation by common citizens not just a possibility, but a reality. What else a liberal newspaper could ever want if not freedom to vote any way people want and citizens' partecipation in government? And by the way I don't like mr. Berlusconi but of course I can't insult his voters... Sinc ewhen insulting voters is a liberal way of thinking? I hoped it was just a left wing attitude.

I think The Economist made a mistake of criticizing 2 clowns. In fact the are close to 16 million clowns in Italy that voted Berlusconi and Grillo party. Berlusconi promised all sorts of payments to citizen that we cannot afford; Grillo promised the world; block high speed trains and introduce slow trains, exit out of Euro , legalized cannabis ect...
Italians deserve what they get, what European should do, consider letting Italy leave Euro straight away. Grillo will then sort them out


Banana Republic in reply to Merculinus

why are you disgusted; maybe we cannot face the truth. Grillo number 1 on the agenda is exit out of Euro. Do you know the implications; instead of criticizing economist take you head out the sand and be realistic.

Alexander Von Thorn in reply to Scott_P

No, it's referred to left wing people of all kinds that have this behaviour: if voters didn't vote in a way they like, they are stupid, ignorant, manipulated, don't know their true interests, etc etc etc Seeing The Economist behaving the same way was quite surprising... and upsetting.

Merculinus in reply to Banana Republic

You are pretty ignorant about Grillo's program. I hope you're not italian because if you are then you have voted without being informed. Grillo's number 1 on the agenda is not exit from the Euro. His program is available on his blog as a PDF file and exit from the Euro is not even mentioned. Grillo has publicly talked about the possibility of exiting from the Euro but said that this would have to be approved by a referendum. Let the people decide and not the technocrats such as Monti or Merkel. Perhaps the idea of exiting from the Euro is a provocation which will be beneficial as it will spur discussion on how to improve this dodgy monetary union....

Banana Republic in reply to Merculinus

I am Italian, yesterday meeting the M5S voted for most urgent measures : 1 Exit from Europe (not referendum but exit) 2 legalizing Cannabis 3 Removing tax from car purchases. Then he wants to block the TAV; something where we have already spend billions, tunnels already built. One of key members consider Fascism to be a good thing


Comments, discussiones and even critics are always welcome but respect for a nation is something not subject to any negotiation.

I think The Economist should respect Italy and Italians because we're a nation with its own sovereignty: its our own right to vote for whoever we prefer and it's not respectful to state "clowns" while talking to people that are now representing more than half of the nation because, simply, it means you're telling clowns to italians.

It's an internal discussion - maybe a dispute - to find out a way to govern the Country and to decide what to do of OUR future. It OUR future, not yours: it's clear finance markets are thrilling because we have a huge exposure but, first, a nation is not a company you can manage and take over if your fear risks for your credits; second: even while talking about companies, external stake holders cannot tamper if they do not like the strategy, the CEO, the board, etc.

Other countries, sometimes, made strange decisione from Italian's standpoint, even US - a democratic symbol for the WW - is not a perfect democracy but we respect anyone so anyone MUST resptect what we chose for ourselves.


Scott_P in reply to Emiliano.

"Other countries, sometimes, made strange decisione from Italian's standpoint, even US - a democratic symbol for the WW - is not a perfect democracy"..on what basis you compare the two things? Do you use the term "democracy" just because you vote? And what's the italian standpoint?

Emiliano. in reply to Scott_P

Scott it was not my intention to criticize US, I was just trying to explain that internal affairs are just... internal affairs! That said, I made a mistake talking about US because I linked The Economist to US while it's from UK: writing in a rush I was not getting this point.

While stating "italian's standpoint" I meant "italians' point of view": I was not referring to the fact that Italy has or had specific standpoint(s) regarding choices in US but to the fact that many italians do not understand necessarely all your choices (or choices in other countries) but even in that cases we do not scream or publish international articles to criticize at WW level other populations because their democratic choices.

Closing: yes, I use the term democracy because I vote in a democratic country, even if you think Italy is not. Please, do not shift this discussion to a nation vs nation debate because it was clear I was using US as an example (or, in worst case, it's clear now with this additional comment) and not to criticize you or others.

I will not cancel my subscription because The Economist is a fine magazine, far better than (almost) everything is published in Italy. I just hope that next time Italy gets the cover The Economist writer will research politics more and use the "These stupid Italians didn't vote the right way again!" less.

Scott_P in reply to Emiliano.

Emiliano, you sound wishy-washy! What caught the attention was also your "demand" for respect because you respect EVERYONE. Well, that's big time lie. I guess you don't know much about Italy. Do italians respect immigrants? How can there be respect for anyone if there is a lack of self-respect even by voting for a bunch of clowns?

Scott_P in reply to Emiliano.

Emiliano, you sound wishy-washy! What caught the attention was also your "demand" for respect because you respect EVERYONE. Well, that's big time lie. I guess you don't know much about Italy. Do italians respect immigrants? How can there be respect for anyone if there is a lack of self-respect even by voting for a bunch of clowns? What about those one that you voted since 1946? ..an old story. Here's some homework: check over the net for the statements of your "politicians" and the media in general regarding the US. Did the US send in the Marines or went on with a boycott? Yet you're for a boycott against the Economist just for DESCRIBING the facts. Look at the M5S's attitude towards the US in Sicily: are't those clowns in charge of the Regione Sicilia? Shouldn't there be an American boycott against Sicily? Look at what's going to happen at the national level with'em in the govt. Did you check Grillo's blog lately? Obviously 's going to screw up,and when the merda is going to hit the fan, do you want to bet that 101% of the "grillini" are going to repudiate the guy?.."who me?I've never heard of the guy!!"..Your behaviour? Nothng new under the italian sky.

Scott_P in reply to Emiliano.

Emiliano, pass this along g_fiore who got banned... G_FIORE, in your comment you stated : "ScottP,your arrogance comes from crass ignorance". My answer: That's how you call it? I call it " being-sick-and-tired-of-seing-Italy-in-the-merda. And do you know why Italy is in the merda? Because-after-every-election-the-country-goes-from-one-feccia-to-the-other. Now don't say that this too is a lie!!

Claudio Zambiasi

Without any intention of being offensive and with "humble pride ". As you can see, I'm writing with a bit of good and healthy humor which remind me Benny Hill's eyes expressions when he was saying " with humble pride ????? ".
how pride can be Humble ?????.

On more serious matters and as a pure Italian who has lived in chronological order : the Italian period . the German period ,the Tito period ,the American period , the english period , and all their deeds (acts of terrorism ) and all of them in one city . As a matter of fact ...I think that I'entitle to all this nationalities . As the reader can see? I have even solved the problems associate with purity.

The comments expressed in The Economist forum , regarding Italy election is very and exstremely poor .The english speaking world and the education system on how they see the world at the moment ? can be compared to with
the american general,in Italy 1945,having his lunch in a monastery . His mind
at the table ...was not on the food that he was eating ...within himself he was thinking " this building in which I'm in "now" was here before the discovery of America ".And for the general this was a very great and immense problem indeed .This is something that the human mind find very difficult to grasp...and more so in the english world . It is and might appeare some how mentally obstract , but "grasp" is the properword for it .
The english speaking world has been left back at and in the times of Bath roman times and forgot the exitence of the real world ...they forgot what really did happen ....and if Italians had to rebury them all in the future a second time it would become more than a tragedy .Once is quite enough !

Claudio Zambiasi in reply to Scott_P

It was not a nice welcome " to young non political people " into this world! Or are you trying to tell me that at the age of 7,8,9,10. young people are already fascists,nazist, communist and whatever you like.Have you ever been under a bombardment ? Have ever lived in a shelter ? Have you ever had a spitfire behind you . Were you alive in 1940,41,42,43,44,45.

Claudio Zambiasi in reply to Scott_P

Your comment was : Ho!I see !... yours might a bloody rough one indeed ! Ma fammi il piacere....

I have not received any answers to the questions I did pose to you .I gather, that now you understand a bit better the story of the american general and his problems .I do hope you understand a bit better what I did intend to express when I wrote :Its something that may appear mentally obstract , but grasp is the proper word for it .
In relation to "rough " . Try to remember the old italian song :
Childrens like us ? mothers do not make them anymore "
I would not like to be around a second time in the role of an altar boy ....I do hope it will help you to understand what rebury them all meant.


Interesting article! Read the comments below....

Scott_P in reply to fabtech

Forget the comments, check your GDP, your unemployement, your debt, your schools, your unions ..and let's not forget all the ciuccis in between. Yet, you keep on voting for clowns..

Honestly, when the Euro started I was a great fan of it and full of optimism. Today, we have to face reality: It was a short term love affair, nothing more. We we forced to marry, today we must admit we are just too different to stay together. That happens. Between woman and man and obviously between nations. Let us be a bit more consequent and say: "we married, it didn`t work out, let us find the most civilized way for a good, fair divorce".

Scott, I am from Germany, the North will pay the bill this way or the other .... I just can´t take it any longer..... I hope future generations won`t make the same mistake again. If so, then I am happy to let go the car, the house, the dog, the bank account, the whatever...


Reality is too complex for us to understand it with theories we learned in school.

The Euro, the debt, default risk, investments ... Less of that macro-scale and more emphasis on the micro-scale which, after all, scales up and makes things work.

Politicians, technocrats, economists, etc etc ... by training are very useful but, nonetheless, not even near being sufficient. The real content must come from the wisdom of the lay people that have to struggle with the details of keeping a business open or a family together in the face of adversities, and have passion for politics. I trust those, and the 5 stars movement brought them into the Italian institutions. Sooooo good!

I hope this attempt will be successful and make everyone happier, you included, Economist.


Beppe Grillo and Movement 5 star represents a radical change, it is the future and it will be copied throughout the world. A magazine like the Economist can not attack and judge a large and important country like Italy. I want to end my subscription to this magazine is really a shame. I will not give my money ever again in this magazine. All of you should do the same thing, I do not want to be complicit in this shame.

andrercavalc in reply to guest-lmmossa

You are kidding, right? Beppe Grillo? Really? The guy is a clown! Italy has just wasted a great opportunity to show to the world it deserves a chance to be treated as a serious country. What did it do instead? It elected Grillo and Berlusconi for God's sake! And not only that. It elected Berlusconi again! An election, my friend, is not like a bunga-bunga party. Make no mistake: it is a pretty serious business. It may not be in Italy, but it is damn serious. It is the only way to get rid of clownish politicians that screw up a country. Congratulations, my friend: you have just screwed your own country up.

MehrAlsSinnLos in reply to guest-lmmossa


The Grillo outfit, Now on sale at H&M:
The Grillo jacket*, just € 99,99,-
The Grillo trousers*, just € 55,99,-
The Grillo scarve*, just € 9,99,-

And if you bring a proof that you voted for him,
you'll get a 50% discount.

*Note: Made in China of course.....

guest-lmmossa in reply to andrercavalc

You do not understand what's going on in Italy. You're talking about old things, talk of corpses. Berlusconi is dead. In a few months you will not feel about him. Instead Beppe Grillo and his Movement 5 stars is changing the story. In Italy is taking an epochal change, a change for the world and for the history of this planet. . In a short time all over the world will take as an example the Movement 5 Stars. I know that now you are misinformed, I know you do not know what I'm talking about, but I ask you to trust me. Forget Berlusconi, he does not have enough MPs to legislate, can only agree with others, but will take a few months or maybe a few days. Italy returns to the vote and the motion 5 stars take a 65% approval and will change the world as we know it today. Trust.

andrercavalc in reply to guest-lmmossa

Berlusconi is dead politically? Yeah, right. He will buy his way back into politics again and again and the Italians will give him his umpteenth chance. I will believe you only when the clownish king of bunga-bunga parties is confined to the History books. I have been watching Italian politics for quite a while, so I believe I know quite a bit about your country's politics. It has the uncanny ability of going from bad to worse and then to even worse. When someone tries to fix anything, he or she gets the boot.


Italy is hopeless. You cannot take this country seriously. Why not? Simple answer: Berlusconi is back. Yeah, the buffoon is back in town. Oh, dear Lord! What on earth do the italians think they are doing? Wake up, Italy! Bite the bullet and carry on implementing the austerity reforms. There are no such things as free pizzas and bunga-bunga parties. Someone in the end will have to pay for all of your stupidity. And you know what? This someone is you, the Italian people proper.


This election is just another proof that the global crisis is not an economic one. It is a political one.
The ability of voters to shower themselves with subsidies and to avoid painful choices by "kicking the can down the road ", supporting snake charmers such as Il Berlusca and the cricket, is the greatest weakness of democracy. People crave for leadership, and in the absence of real talent, they will vote for the one with more "chutzpah" to lie to their faces. I believe a working govt perhaps with the left and Mr Monti will be negotiated, but the long term issues will remain and get worse.

As for italians feeling insulted by the Economist, i agree the editorial might have been a little out of line. But by some of you claiming that Monti was unelectable because he was too " strict on reforms" you are not helping your cause. I do the same when i stop going to doctors that order me to go on diets. Difference is, i only hurt myself...

MilovanDjilas in reply to Xeneize

I agree - so why did our Liguria support him?

From one Xeneize to another... come to the Venezia Giulia - here we are all merely sleeping in Italy and working, shopping and having a social life in Slovenia. The Republic is about to fail...
Petrol in Koper is 1.52 per litre. Food is cheaper. Beer is 2.00 per half litre. Almost everyone speaks Italian. Pizza is better than in Italy (more natural ingredients) and costs 5-6 euros. Pharmaceuticals are cheaper. Meat is cheaper. And, there is no Roman Curia in Slovenia...

Merculinus in reply to Xeneize

I am sorry but your argument is fatally flawed. The difference between a doctor's prescription and Monti's austerity and policies is that the former is validated by many double blind controlled trials...the scientific method, which is based on maths and experiments. On the other hand, Merkel's and Monti's "cure" is not scientific but is only the technocrat's opinion. None has ever performed an experiment to show it works. Social science and economics aren't exact science and it's difficult to prove that something has the desired effect. They mostly rely on correlations which are confounded by tons of external factors that make it impossible to isolate cause and effect. So Monti's opinion is just an opinion and cannot be more valid than that of millions of italians.

ferrano in reply to MilovanDjilas

I am very interested in your comment. My girlfriend is from the Balcans and I am sick and tired of my republic. May I ask you more information privately? I have been to Ljubljana and loved it, still I think it is too expensive in terms of food price/wages ratio. If it is no bothering, add me on Facebook (facebook.com/drferro) or ask for my e-mail. Thank you in advance. Daniele


English sarcasm for Italian elected “clowns”, or Italian voters’ sarcasm for the Anglo-Saxons austerity psychosis?

Goubertas in reply to Scott_P

For the Italians, real clowns are those who insist on a destructive austerity policy. A little patience and you will perceive the leal effects of the Italian sarcasm (invisible to you) on European policy.

Goubertas in reply to Scott_P

Your Italophobia will disappear, if you think to all Italian Americans below who had excelled in fields as:
Giovanni Caboto, Alessandro Malaspina, Eusebio Kino, Enrico de Tonti, Alphonso de Tonti, Giacomo Beltrami, Giovanni da Verrazzano (first European to enter New York Bay), Pietro Cesare Alberti, ( first Italian to reside in America)
Constantino Brumidi (created the frescoed interior of Capitol dome), Lorenzo Da Ponte (first opera house in the country in 1833 in New York), Attilio Piccirilli (carved the Lincoln Memorial), Nick LaRocca (first jazz recording in 1917), the great tenor Enrico Caruso, Arturo Toscanini (NBC Symphony Orchestra), Rosa Ponselle (Metropolitan Opera), Ruggiero Ricci (world-famous violinist), Frank Sinatra, Harry Warren (music for 42nd Street), Guy Lombardo (dance band), Frank Capra (film), Al Taliaferro (creator of Donald Duck), Walter Lantz (creator of Woody Woodpecker), Joseph Oriolo (creator of Casper the Friendly Ghost), Joseph Barbera (creator of Tom and Jerry), many famous singers as Mario Lanza, Perry Como, Dean Martin, Tony Bennett, Frankie Laine, Vic Damone, Don Cornell, Bobby Rydell, Julius La Rosa, Connie Francis, Joanie James and Madonna, broadway stars as Carol Lawrence, Sergio Franchi, Patti LuPone, Ezio Pinza and Liza Minnelli, composers as Henry Mancini and Bill Conti, classical and operatic composers as John Corigliano, Norman Dello Joio, David Del Tredici, Dominick Argento and Gian Carlo Menotti, actors as Don Ameche, Dean Martin, Anne Bancroft, Ernest Borgnine, Robert Alda, Alan Alda, Lou Costello, Frank Langella, Frankie Avalon, Annette Funicello, James Darren, Jimmy Durante, Anthony Franciosa, Sal Mineo, Ben Gazzara, Harry Guardino, Aldo Ray, Richard Conte, Bernadette Peters, Connie Stevens, Richard Crenna, Dom DeLuise, Armand Assante, Susan Sarandon, Danny DeVito, Joe Mantegna, John Travolta, Tony Danza, Alyssa Milano, Paul Sorvino, Mira Sorvino, Al Pacino, Liza Minnelli, Rene Russo, Leonardo DiCaprio, Robert De Niro, Joe Pesci, Nicolas Cage, Stanley Tucci, Marissa Tomei, John Turturro, Gary Sinese, Robert Loggia and Sylvester Stallone, movie directors as Frank Capra, Vincente Minnelli, Francis Ford Coppola, Martin Scorsese and Michael Cimino
Pietro Di Donato; Lawrence Ferlinghetti; Dana Gioia, John Fusco, Daniela Gioseffi, Helen Barolini, Anthony Julian Tamburri, Paolo Giordano, Fred Gardaphe, Josephine Gattuso Hendin, Emanuel Carnevali, Pietro DiDonato, Christine Palamidessi Moore, Don DeLillo, Giannina Braschi, Gilbert Sorrentino, Lawrence Ferlinghetti, Gay Talese, John Fante, Tina DeRosa, Daniela Gioseffi, Kim Addonizio, Dana Gioia, Daniela Gioseffi, Paul Mariani ,Og Mandino, Max Lucado, Leo Buscaglia, Antoinette Bosco, Mario Puzo, Josephine Gattuso Hendin, Tomie dePaola, David Baldacci, Kate DiCamillo, Adriana Trigiani, Lisa Scottoline and others
John Finizzi(mayor of Augusta), Anthony Ghio (mayor of Texarkana), Francis Spinola (first Italian American to serve in Congress, 1887), Andrew Longino (Governor of Mississippi 1900), Charles Bonaparte (Secretary of the Navy in the Theodore Roosevelt administration), Fiorello LaGuardia (US Congress, Mayor of New York City 1934-1945), Al Smith (first Italian American governor of New York and candidate for president in 1928), Fiorello LaGuardia (mayor of New York City in 1931) Vito Marcantonio (Congress in 1934), John Pastore of Rhode Island (first Italian American to be elected to the Senate), Vincent Impellitteri (mayor of New York City) Anthony Celebrezze (mayor of Cleveland in 1953 and Secretary of Health, Education and Welfare in the Kennedy administration), Foster Furcolo (Governor of Massachusetts 1957-1961), John Volpe (Governor of Massachusetts from 1961-1963, and 1965-1969), Peter Rodino (chaired the House Judiciary Committee), John Sirica (presided over the Watergate hearings), John Scali (U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations 1973-1975), Pete Domenici (U.S. Senate from New Mexico), Patrick Leahy (U.S. Senate since 1973), Joseph Califano (Secretary of Health, Education and welfare in 1977), Ella Grasso (first woman elected Governor of Connecticut in 1980), Mario Cuomo (Governor of New York in 1982), Geraldine Ferraro (first woman vice presidential candidate in U.S.), Benjamin Civiletti (Attorney General 1979-1981), Frank Carlucci (Secretary of Defense 1987-1989)
Antonio Meucci (inventor of telephone), Filippo Mazzei (physician, friend of Thomas Jefferson), Federico Faggin (first micro-chip and micro-processor), Robert Gallo (cancer-causing virus, and the AIDS virus), Anthony Fauci (discovery of the AIDS virus), Riccardo Giacconi (X-ray telecope), Enrico Fermi (nuclear), astronauts as Dominic Antonelli, Charles Camarda, Michael Massimino, Richard Mastracchio, Ronald Parise, Mario Runco, Albert Sacco and Nicole Marie Passonno Stott

Noble Prize laureates:
Salvatore Luria, Renato Dulbecco, Franco Modigliani, Mario Capecchi and Riccardo Giacconi


I'd also like to point out that Grillo is a hypocrite. Owns a motor yacht and a Ferrari sports car, both being in contradiction with his well known environmentalist stance.

Grillo has proposed that members of the Italian Parliament who have a criminal record should be barred from public office. As aforementioned proposal is taking place, Grillo himself has been found guilty of involuntary manslaughter. How ironic.


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