Hope and Change my ass, right?

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Yeah, I agree. inconsiderate, irresponsible commie slackers.

Omg glenn "pig eyes" beck says the revolution starts now!
Now? After he gets what he wanted, NOW the revolution starts? Does... does he know what a revolution is?

Pelosi has more gonads than Obama.  If the Rethug/Rove machine hadn't trashed her she could be a viable Dem candidate for Pres. but......Americans are idiots. 

The Obomber was $elected by the capitalist class (something like 450 out of 500 something newspapers endorsed him) because they believed that he would be best, in the face of growing resistance, at bringing them in the most profits. He also was $elected by a section of the capitalist class, who understand something of the true nature of the capitalist system, because they knew that his presidency would allow them an environment to give rise publicly to a fascist movement.

Liberals are deluded to think that there can be a society under capitalism in which minimum wage is 20$ an hour, but the price of the goods we need to survive remain the same. You can vote until you turn into a donkey and it'll never happen, you might as well just tell everyone that we're going to heaven if you think it can. We live under the dictatorship of the capitalist class. They control the flow and price of goods, even the ones that are required of us to survive. They control whether or not goods even get produced at all, and if there's not enough profit to be made for them then those goods will not get produced (housing is a glaring example of this even in the frontyard of the empire itself, where the imperialists usually like to keep things looking "nice" so that they can use it as an example to show all those in other places, where they are by far more ruthless in their exploitation of the Earth and its inhabitants, that they just aren't working hard enough etc...).

The only way we can start to become liberated from the capitalist dictatorship is by starting to place the means of production into common ownership. Labor is the only thing that produces wealth, and currently that wealth is concentrated in the hands of the capitalists whose families have been "best" (down to the foundation of this rotten to the core empire, which is in slavery, racism, genocide, the oppression and subjugation of women, and the theft of the lands of the native peoples) at exploiting the Earth and its inhabitants. That wealth needs re-distributed and the means of production placed into common ownership. The phase in which this is done is called socialism. There is no permanent socialism. Anyone who calls themselves a socialist is confused and lacks key knowledge about the nature of the capitalist system. You will either have leadership with proper vision to lead humanity forward to a communist world (a world free of all forms of exploitation and oppression, without classes and without nations or states,a world without money where goods are produced for need rather than profits) or the forces created by having individuals or even groups of individuals (even if it's the revolutionary state itself) owning the means of production will lead humanity back to capitalism. Socialism has only been achieved two times in the capitalist era, in the USSR from 1917-1956 and in China from 1949-1976, and great things were achieved (can't type the book here, but can encourage you to see professor Dongping Han's online BookTV Talk), but those revolutions were overturned by the forces of the old order, and capitalism was restored. 

Socialism will be a bloody and turbulent period. There's no avoiding this. It'd be real nice if we could just take over the farms and factories etc.. and begin producing goods for need, but the capitalists and their allies (including the armed forces under their command, the police/military) will never allow for it to happen peacefully. There'll never be a time, ever, when the capitalists will say "oh here's this group of people talking about bring forth a new way, let's just give them the keys and see how they run things." No, they will fight to the death for their "right" to exploit the Earth and its inhabitants and as long as they still hold the keys to our means to survive they will use all that flows from that (including overwhelming control of the media, textbooks etc...) to be able to arm and command forces to fight for their interests. During socialism they, both domestic and foreign capitalist forces, will do all they can to create a "the sky is falling atmosphere" and the first time someone's falafel is overcooked, or there's a shortage of bread, or any number of things that are bound to happen when society is going through such turbulence, they will succeed in winning a following in favor of going back to the old ways. The capitalist class must be suppressed out of existence (as a class, not as individuals) and we must have leadership with proper vision or we will be nothing but another knife in the back of the masses.

Furthermore even if a group of people were to be able to seize state power in a certain area of the world and begin to produce goods for need, capitalists in other parts of the world will just send the armed forces under their command to crush you (what? you didn't rape any babies, and burn down any churches? Well you will have according to the people on their TV, which is what counts in this instance). In short, as there is no way to properly dig into these topics without a 2-4 hour speech or a book's worth of text or something,.. without a People's Army, the people have nothing!

I'm forced by time to paint things in broad strokes here, but let's get into this! Some of you have obviously sobered up from your shots of Obomalade and are starting to see a bit behind the curtains of this "democracy" theater that the capitalist dictatorship continuously uses to fool the masses. However, some of you still think taxing the capitalist class does a bit of good. Well that's incorrect. You tax the capitalist class, they simply raise the price on goods. It's all a part of their "democracy" theater. Furthermore if other capitalists sense that there is more blood in the water, more money to be squeezed from the masses, they will raise prices. Unions produce basically the same effect as taxation, you win a higher wage, they reach for the price sticker gun, or other capitalists will reach for theirs. They have us coming and going.

Under chattel slavery, slaveowners had to take into account that they couldn't starve slaves to death, that they had to give them the bare minimum that it would take to secure their survival and willingness to produce more people in their social situation (those who own no, or very little means of production). Little has changed today except that, in most cases, the only whips driving you to do the will of the capitalist are the whips of hunger and necessity. The public opinion-molding machine (TV, newspapers, textbooks etc..) that is overwhelming under the $control$ of the capitalists, is used to create the default for what is considered "normal" behavior in society (such as making it seem "normal" to enter into an exploitative relationship with a capitalist, making tons of money..for the capitalist, for 8+ hours a day in order to secure your survival, religion as a force for good, a woman's "proper" place in the world etc...), and that allows them to play on our natural fears as social animals who don't want to stray so far away from "normal" as to risk the ability to secure our survival and/or to be shunned by friends and family.  

Had the capitalists needed to, say had there still been a growing left resistance movement despite the Obomber $election, they could've had him throw us more crumbs that they would've just pushed other buttons to extract from us (or the common people of the world) elsewhere, but they saw that they didn't have to, that just the thought of "change" was enough to pacify a large section of the resistance that would lead them to lesser profits, and that they could go ahead full-force with their imperialist agenda of creating an unchallengeable worldwide dictatorship.

Again, I've brushed with broad strokes here, but let's get into this! I want to close with a quote:


"People always were and always will be the foolish victims of deceit and self-deceit in politics until they learn to discover the interests of some class or other behind all moral, religious, political and social phrases, declarations and promises. The supporters of reforms & improvements will always be fooled by the defenders of the old order until they realize that every old institution, however barbarous and rotten it may appear to be, is maintained by the forces of some ruling classes." -Lenin

I would love to argue with that... but I can't.  I think the pejoratives are the only thing that threw me off, other than that..  You're right.  although some smaller points could be contested to a small degree, such as declaring as necessity the removal of the monetary system...  a controlled/regulated monetary system can be very useful if used properly, as a measurement of production and distrobution..


On the whole you're right, this current paradigm of raping the planet and the people on it (in more ways than one) will not change from within~ if it does, it'll be too slow to notice and not in any of our lifetimes.


I can't help but recognize that you mentioned world media coverage of barbarisms elsewhere in the world, and seemed to mention that those reports might not be true?  I'd have to contend that;  while the control of the media organization might be in someone elses hands, I have a troubled time believing that reporters themselves are in on it, falsifying information to spur movements against.  Even with the clearly erroneous reports of weapons of mass destruction in Iraq (and other such debunked lies) we had many media outlets reporting that nothing was to be found, thus creating the opposition to that claim.  I would like to continue this discussion more, maybe start another thread? [lets not derail this one]

We will need money during socialism, but the aim must be to overcome it. As long as there is money being used someone is being exploited somewhere. In the future communist world, if someone tried to sell something they’d be looked at funny, pointed to the place where the products are being produced and people would attempt to help them with what it was that they were after in the first place.

We live in a world that has long passed the ability to produce adequate food, clean water, shelter and health care for all, but see people dieing all around from treatable conditions. This will always be the case under capitalism, they always need a stock of people who’re forced to work for anything or die and they have the buttons at their disposal to shape society largely to their liking. From within the confines of the capitalist system it is not possible to bring about the kind of change needed ever, not just in our lifetime. Again we live under the dictatorship of the capitalist class. They’ve proven that they have a button for everything, except for when they’re facing a People’s Army under leadership with proper vision.

I don’t believe that there aren’t people in the media who might wish to tell the truth. I believe that most are people from privileged backgrounds and are genuinely deluded themselves, or else they wouldn‘t be hired. They also don’t have the freedom to report on whatever they would like, if they got up today and started telling people, in a convincing manner, that religion is a bunch of crap, advertisers would pull their ads and they’d lose their paychecks. They have an interest in doing their master’s bidding. That said there is room for some of them to stray a little bit away from what the dominant section of the capitalist class wants them to report, as there are these people called liberals who exist within the capitalist class. Liberals do a “great” service for capitalism by channeling people’s righteous outrage into ideology that stands no chance whatsoever for our liberation. Some liberals know what they’re doing, but most are genuinely deluded into thinking that capitalism produces the best of all possible worlds and if you’re working with capitalism you’re working with forces beyond your control. Any capitalist who doesn’t and/or is not able to exploit the Earth and its inhabitants to the maximum degree possible will be happily pushed aside by one who will.

I don’t know if by “barbarisms” you’re alluding to what has happened in the previous attempts at socialism in the USSR (1917-1956) and China (1949-1976)? If so, then yes I’m saying that you’ve been lied to by the same class that brought you the lies about weapons of mass destruction, the existence of a god, that Vietnam was “liberated”  on and on.. Do I deny that there were some, note well some, excesses committed, no, but these crimes are but a drop in the bucket compared to the crimes of the capitalist system. And as I wrote before, socialism is a bloody  and turbulent period, there’s no avoiding it. If you know of a peaceful way to take over farms and factories and to be able to protect them from hostile forces then let’s hear it, and some examples please. Also I don’t advocate, like many so-called communists do, whether they do so expressly or not, that we see Marxism-Leninism-Maoism as a doctrine that we must follow, I view it as a science in which we analyze what has taken place in the previous attempts at revolution and identify the mistakes, take what has worked well, and forge a new synthesis on the way forward. And by analyze I don’t mean accepting the capitalist’s account of what went down, that’d be no different than going to a preacher to learn about atheism. 

I don’t mean to derail your thread here, but I’m unable to comment on this topic (that I feel passionate about) without bringing a scientific analysis of the conditions that have given rise to it. It’s like you’re asking me to explain how we have these opposable thumbs, but let’s not talk about evolution :)

The "Barbarisms" I was alluding to were the conflicts around the world where communist regimes (typically in third world countries) or communist dictatorships [usually just using communism as a platform and not a real ideology] commit violent acts to gain power (ie the burmese way to socialism party as the result of a "coupe de ta" by militarist general Ne Win.)

Unfortunately socialism/communism won't really become effective until capitalism isn't standing in its way- to impose the system that you speak of (a system I myself have played with and tried to hypothetically design for a few years) would need the world to be on board initially~ it would be much more unlikely to survive independently due the the need for resources from around the world.  maybe it could be done continentally..


As far as the thread, like I said earlier, just point me to the thread somewhere else we can discuss this and I'll be there.  I'm more interested in the reaction to Obama's slight of hand that seems to be recent news as per this thread.


(btw I do have a plan for a monetarily free society that would operate independently of the other nations of the world.  So far most of the kinks have been worked out.  Let me know if your interested in hearing.)

Well I've given up hope, that's for sure. I hate the all or nothing approach to our political system. But hey, what can you do?

Well here is one thing we can do to make our voices heard.  If Obama won't listen to us, maybe we can convince Congress.


MoveOn.org is trying to quickly get as many reasons against the tax bill as they can so they can present it to Congress before the vote on it. Please list as many reasons as you can think of.


Well this fight's over.


Maybe we'll at least get DADT done now... maybe... I dunno...


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