






What are the issues for todays' feminists?


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Granted, my conclusion was one of reasoning rather than research.  What do you consider the major battles today, in the Western World?  Women have pay equity.  They graduate high school and college at higher rates than men.  They have equal legal status, (which men still do not enjoy).  In every respect their opportunities seem to equal or surpass those of their male counterparts, including having the choice not to pursue career advancement, whether in the private or governmental sectors.
Bullshit. Women in western countries are still earning less than men are. Areas where women dominate are paid less than areas where men dominate. In male-dominated industries there is antagonism to women joining. Women are often paid less than men doing the same job in the same organisation. Even though women are graduating from university at a higher rate than men, their starting wages are $2000 per year less and the difference becomes greater as their careers progress. The 'choice' not to pursue career advancement is often one that the women themselves do not choose, they are simply passed over for promotion due to ingrained sexist attitudes in the workforce.

I strongly recommend you read the book 'Delusions of Gender' by Cordelia Fine before you talk about how damn 'equal' women are now.

Not in the least bullshit.
I don't dispute for a minute any of the data you posted above.  Unfortunately you make the sophomoric mistake of assuming the disparity is due to discrimination, when it is actually due to difference in the employment choices people make.
I'm sure you will appreciate the fact that I took the time to follow and read all of the links you provided, and though I decline your invitation to spend my money on the book you reference, if you would see fit to send me a copy then I promise that I will read it.
Perhaps, in turn, you will see fit to read a few quotes that support my thesis that the disparity in earnings is due primarily to women's choices?

Women do not negotiate high salaries as earnestly as men:
"Some have suggested that women are more modest and do not negotiate their salaries the way men do.  The GAO research showed that female MBAs during their first year out of college earn $4,600 less than men with the same education and professional experience. One TV network conducted its own experiment on salary negation.
Half of the men in the experiment asked for the maximum rate.  But only a third of the women did the same."

Women who do not interrupt their careers to raise children do not experience any wage discrimination:
"In contrast to the overall trend, single, childless women in metropolitan areas -- between the ages of 22 and 30 -- earn eight percent more than men in the same category.
And Black and Hispanic women out-earn their male counterparts by an even larger margin."

Women with children choose not to pursue career advancement as much as fathers:
"The GAO research indicated that female managers who have children earn 79 percent of the salaries received by male managers with children. It has also been suggested that mothers may be less eager to move up the career ladder if doing so involves travel or long working hours."

Women tend to choose careers that are less competitive and demanding, rather than more lucratively rewarding:
"Early career choices, most prominently occupational choices, also play a role in the gender pay gap. While the choice of major is related to occupation, the relationship is not strict. For example, some mathematics majors choose to teach, while others work in business or computer science. One year after graduation, women who work in computer science, for instance, earn over 37 percent more than do women who are employed in education or administrative, clerical, or legal support occupations."

Women choose to interrupt their careers, which retards their career advancement:
"Most college-educated women who are not working full time will eventually return to the full-time labor market. On average, these women will then have lower wages than will their continuously employed counterparts, further widening the pay gap."

Men who become fathers respond by working more hours pursuing higher incomes in order to support the growing financial needs of their families:
"Indeed, men appear to spend more time at the office after becoming a father, whereas women spend considerably less time at work after becoming a mother."

WombatQueen, can you guess the source of all of the above quotes?  They were all taken from the online articles YOU cited.  Evidently, you did not read beyond the headlines.  I strongly recommend that in the future, you make an effort to actually review the research you cite.  It will save me time, and save you embarrassment.
If you could be bothered to go to your local library to read Cordelia Fine's book you would find that all of these alleged counterarguments are evidence of the patriarchal world we live in, not because women genuinely 'choose' to be poorer and underemployed.

Women do not ask for higher wages because they are less likely than their male counterparts to get the job if they do.

The lower wages of mothers is not just because they take a break from their careers (the patriarchy frowning on men taking breaks from their careers for childrearing) they are less likely to be hired in the first place if they admit they have children. http://www.businessweek.com/careers/workingparents/blog/archives/20.... They are also more likely to be overlooked for promotion than childfree co-workers and men with children.

The fact that education, administration and legal support is paid less is symptomatic of how little society values women's work. When these professions were largely male they were well paid. Also women are less likely to be considered for jobs that are traditionally considered male even when they apply from them.

You notice that all of your counterarguments contain the phrase 'would appear' or 'is suggested'. The researchers are hypothesising based on the (patriarchal) world they know. Cordelia Fine's book exposes the prejudices that these statements are based on.
Now why should I take me time to read a book you recommend, when you do not take the time to read the articles you yourself cite?
I did read the wikipedia pages on the author, and on her book.  Nothing on those pages suggests relevance to debates on choices that people make.  Only on whether those choices are innate or conditioned.

As far as your claim that "Women do not ask for higher wages because they are less likely than their male counterparts to get the job if they do.", I have cited sources for my claims (they happened to be sources supplied by you...).  If you can cite a source of this claim, I will consider it otherwise, you have pretty much exhausted your credibility already.

The fact that education, administration and legal support is paid less is symptomatic of how less stressful, less competitive, less dangerous, and more flexible those jobs are.  Again, if you have actual research to support these claims, then supply them. If they are, indeed, evidence based, then it should be possible to find that evidence freely available on a web page, rather than isolated in a single book.

If, as is most likely, you have no evidence to support your claims and they are merely your opinions, then have the decency to use the phrases 'would appear' or 'is suggested' in your future posts, so as not to confuse fact and conjecture.
All I can say about this is that if employers know they can save money, they will. So if they know they can get away with starting women out at a lower salary, or not giving them as many raises, etc, because women are used to getting paid less (because they have always been paid less) and would most likely have the same problem at most places at work, then they will pay them less.
All I can say about this is that if employers know they can get the same work out of a woman at a cheaper rate than a man, why would they not always hire a woman when given the choice?
There have been debates, conflicts and divisions from the start of feminism. If you look up feminism in the 70s you'll see that there were a number of different groups with different agendas. It's funny because no-one tars male-centric debates as meaning there are no solid issues worth fighting for. Look at any political party, trade union movement, academic field or human rights movement and you'll find conflicting opinions and healthy debate. Feminism is no different.

I've been meaning to type replies to a few posts on this site, so I won't type something up myself to answer your question for now, but suffice it to say that I completely agree with the RCP's Declaration that I'm pasting the first part of here:




From China…


To El Salvador…



From Bangkok and Bangalore and Moldova...


To China, Vietnam and Silicon Valley, USA…



From the pockets of privilege in the suburbs…


To the desperate streets of the inner city…



From the war-torn lands…


To the hearth of the family…



From the “sacred vows”…


To the “sacred texts”…



From the cradles…


To “old age”…


To the grave...












This, and nothing less, is the challenge before us.

While there still exists a great deal of oppression of women in 3rd world countries, this is one subset of a general oppression of human beings which includes women, children, men, the poor, immigrants, etc.  No effort at eliminating the oppression of women in a 3rd World nation is going to succeed without raising that standards for the entire populace, and any effort to raise the standards for the entire populace is going to improve the lives of women.
By focusing on the plight of women only, effort and resources are divided and misapplied.  We need to export Democracy to these countries.  Not just Women's rights.
Briefly Bruce as I do not have the time to type the book that it would take to get into these issues properly, I recommend that you read the entire Declaration if you really want to get to the root of the issue. And speaking of root of the issue, I don’t label myself a feminist. I’m a communist. Feminists are people who believe that women can be liberated while we’re living under capitalism, they’re fighting a battle that can’t be won. I realize that the oppression and subjugation of women is rooted in production relations under capitalism.

Just to mention one thing that I see as a major battle here in the frontyard of the empire: I’ve heard from women here who say that when they see billboards everywhere of barely-clothed women that it strikes them about the same as it would if Black people had to endure seeing billboards everywhere of them eating watermelon or some other symbolism meant to degrade them. Conscious people do not wish for a woman’s worth to be bound up in her looks and usefulness to men, yet that is the message all too many young women get from living under capitalism in a dominant culture controlled by rich White males, even to the extent that young women who feel as if they do not live up to capitalist society’s standards of beauty or who do not wish to play the role that the dominant culture has cast them in, will often cut and starve themselves and/or become severely depressed and overeat. Regarding the mechanism the capitalist dictatorship uses to exert this type of influence on young women I encourage you to read my writings on this site regarding the “pomm.”

As for democracy heh:


I see a lot of what you mean, but I would lean towards socialism, as a cure, rather than communism.  I see the same problems with communism as did George Orwell.  Libertarianism and communism only work within very small groups.


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