The fintech review Germany is one of the traditions of Startupradio. We started it in German back in 2014, when fintech first appeared. Since will be shut down the end of 2017, we moved our tradition to the English channel. If you are able to speak German, you will find the old shows here:

Our guests: 

Luka – CrunchBase – LinkedIn

Paolo – CrunchBase – LinkedIn

Interviews Joern mentions:

Deutsche Bank



The regulatory storm hitting 2018

PSD2   – A regulation, which forces banks to open up via API to other companies, including fintechs

Mifid II  –  A regulation on the transparency of investments.

PRIIPs – A regulation, forcing asset managers to disclose more of the content of their products in a more simplified way.

GDPR – A regulation on the usage of customer data


Mentioned article by Joern Financial Crisis shape the financial markets

Article from Paolo on innovation


Other terms used:

UCITS investment funds

Wealth Management


Our sponsors:




Joern: Hello and welcome everybody this is once again Joern from today bringing you something like a German tradition we have been doing the annual Fintech radio since 2014. In and on our German channel so you’ll find the links if you are able to speak German in our show notes. Nonetheless, 2017 is coming to a close and this recording was done on the fifteenth of December 2017. And we are looking at what happened Fintech in 2017 and a brief outlook onwhat is going to happen in 2018. My guests are now Luka from Berlin. How are you going doing?

Luka: Good, good great thanks for having me.

Joern: Pleasure to have you here, you are the serial entrepreneur and co-founder of GetPenta we will have in the show notes the link to all the interviews we already did together. Right?

Luka: Yeah, that’s right.

Joern: And I have here in person by himself Paulo. Can you give us a brief introduction of you?

Paulo: Thanks, I’m Paulo Sironi and I’m Fintech Thought Leader for IBM  academy worldwide and I like to consider myself an entrepreneur over the years.

Joern: Unfortunately, we didn’t have the people we had like for the last Fintech reviews but let me give you a brief idea of what we talked about like in 2016 we talked about how Fin Tech and refinance got together because Number26 became a bank and then was known as N26.

There was already an upswing on the horizon for a Fintech in Frankfurt and last year there was  big discussion about co-branding in FinTech between banks and FinTech’s so let’s give a little message from our sponsors support for this podcast and the following message comes from Slack where work happens all over the world no more losing time context switching more than one thousand apps seamlessly integrate with slack so that’s less time jumping between tools and more time to get things done and I appreciate your sponsoring as well as start-ups observer start-up, observer start-ups are the online dating platform for start-ups especially FinTech’s and investors and corporates okay.

OK here we  that was like the official part and now, guys, I would give you  few thoughts that I collected over time for example I’m here browsing on the website of a company called Barcode consulting they are a small consultancy in Germany but what they do, they collect numbers on Fintech investments all over Europe and they write stuff like Fintech PC, Europe on fire and show all of the numbers published as I say again published for Germany the U.K. and other countries and show how big  Asia and the US is. For me personal opinion is it may not tell one hundred percent true picture because there’s an increasing tendency in Germany as well as in Europe to not disclose investment drought’s, personal feeling that’s why we are working especially for Ryan here on a partnership to get those numbers at least on an aggregated basis out. Also, for me, it was very important when I got here to prepare this was how active in 2017 the big players became. I started out this year with the interviewer from a Dutch bank. They are in the process of starting their own FinTech program where you can access. Deutsche bank via an  API. There was a world premier we had in January last year as well as then expansion of the Deutsche bank especially in terms of investments whether they did actually investments in a start-up called Twins also located here in Frankfurt and I do see it as a trend so banks get more prepared to compete with start-ups as well as not shying away to actually buy stakes or by host start-ups. And that was my main observation for 2017. Paulo looks like he wants to say something.

Paolo: Yes so let me let me share these a point of view let’s say that the Fintech revolution started  in the U.S. and around the 2008 when we saw more clearly that new ideas were put on the table and they started like a B2C type of movement  which quickly transformed that in the U.S. more into a B2B type of configuration and that shows that the maturity I guess of some of these have start-up which realize how difficult it is in any case or to replace banking and they thought of that coming up with a proposition which is more about competition would  win for everybody in the market. Europe is going through the same type of transformation, so Europe started a few years after it and has been like a B2C and is as well transforming into B2B. That means that we should expect in 2017 we should have expect that and the same in 2018 to see that the number of days decreases a little bit. One thing goes to the effect of the Brexit so there is a way more consolidation approach I believe into the Start-up markets compared to the service end of the first year is different in Asia because of China. China, we know is and for a long while will be a B2C type of market so that to me would explain also the reason why the structure of the V.C. deals is different compared to what we experienced in Europe in the years before.

Now looking forward and focusing on Europe I think that we are going to face a perfect regulatory storm in Europe in 2018 we are going to have the first releases of the PSD2 requirements in January 2018 in the MiFID too.

Joern: We may say to people who are listening to this P.S.D.2 means payment services directive number two and it meets.

Paolo: Exactly, so let me explain. Let’s take a look at the word first of all. The world is divided into three macro regions today for Fintech US, Europe and China. Now the USA typically owns the technology that’s where most of the technological innovations were born might be different in the coming future but so it is today. Europe owns the regulation typically and China the business model. The three of them are important they need to go together because if you forget one or the other you cannot be sustainable. What does it mean that Europe owns regulation? The European Union decided that they wanted to transform the way the financial services were managed across the twenty-seven countries on the European continent. So they released four sets of a regulatory framework which are going to hit the market in 2018. The first one is called PSD2 that wants to enforce open banking that means asking banks to create API so that allows a third party which are not necessarily banks they could be start-ups for Fintech to access client data in a way they can generate new services that can be sold to the final consumer. So that’s very important because it should make banking way more competitive because it allows third parties companies like start up to Access in a more structural and robust way the data that is contained in the banks coffers that is owned by their customers. The second regulation is the MiFID2 which is a regulation about the transparency of the investments and that each and everybody must make when we buy in equity, when we buy bitcoin when we by a bond from one of our banks or from one of our robo-advisors. This is also very important because it will force banks to realize that they needed to create more the data for the client and that cannot happen without technology so my favour all of those Fintech which have a B2B type of proposition that banks we want to tour on board there in 2018, in 2019 to transform their business. Then we have another regulation which is called PRIIPs which is about that the products that the SA managers create, because they need to create more transparency around the content of their products which might also force the SA managers since they will be more exposed to the type of products they sell to the client to use technology to transform the way to try to generate the returns, to make them more appealing, more robust  and more relevant. And then we have the fourth regulation which is called GDPR that is about the privacy so the usage of our data because you understand we are going through a period where data would be the new token, the new oil and therefore the European Union also wants to make sure that everybody’s protected by the fact that a third party may use their data in principle to their advantage but you know what happens, it may also be used against them So, the European union you know really wants to get the common playing field.

Joern: That was quite an overview. Greatly appreciated that. So, basically, you say that usually, I read once in an article in The Economist that said financial crisis are important for the advancement of finance basically they are shaped by a crisis which is then followed up by regulations. And right now, after 2008 there was like a letter storm coming to every frame from CRD to MiFID to PSD to BCS Basel Council and Banking Supervision and all this stuff coming as a regulation into banks that forced them to change and now you’re seeing opportunities for FinTech’s with this regulation?


Paulo: Yes, I think that the FinTech’s especially those with the B2B more, then needs t0o to understand what is really happening in banking these days which is something which is happening worldwide but has a special connotation in Europe. I was sharing the main stage at Paris Fintech forum in January this year with the Frederick O’ Daor the chief executive officer of (name of company) and he said himself that in the Western World Banks are transforming from transactions to services which can explain in a simple language: making money by selling products to clients that is a loan, a mortgage, an investment fund, their insurance product to package in those products into a service which is called advice that is given to the client transparently so that they are happy to pay for. That is very very complicated is a huge transformation on the way banks are going to make money which requires them to create the better user experiences the more added value in order to make sure that clients are happy to pay transparently for the products they buy from the banks.

Now the co-chief executive officer of the BNP Paribas, Sofia Merlot she was also sitting the main stage. She said after Frederick that the BNP Paribas asked the clients in France if they wanted to pay for services and the response was ‘pas de tou’ which in French means, absolutely not. Because there is a difficulty of course for clients to understand the value position of banks. But she said we have to do this because the MiFID2, so the regulation about the financial markets in Europe is coming so we need to be more transparent and transform our revenues from embedded leads into product into something which is advised and is on top. Now if you move across the Atlantic we go to the U.S. that was also sharing conversations on Morningstar main stage in Chicago last May with Larry Fink he’s the chief executive officer of Black Rock that is a powerhouse in investment management one of the largest in the world.

Joern: They are very active in everything from ETS, iShares I do believe

Former Barclay’s global investors, so they’re really huge.

Paolo: So, basically, they sell products right but what Larry said is that he expects Blackrock five years from now to generate 30% of its revenue from solutions that means pushing software on the front line where advisory happens in front of the client to support the relationship. Why?

Because those in the US where there was a lesser regulation but more competition the margins have been falling continuously over years. So, now all of these guys need to find a new added value propositions to put in front of their clients so that the clients are willing to pay for the services which is the reason why without technology and without Fintech this stressful mission would not happen because the essence of Fintech is to come up with a new way of talking to the client in a transparent way using better user experiences so they clients are happier to engage into banking transformation and banking basically operations. So, this is to me is the key essence of 2018 because I guess the banks have started to realize this in 2017 and they started speaking up clearly about that. So, all of those FinTech’s which are capable of capturing get these elements might be able to convey a better proposition to banks and get assigned deals or finding in order to help them for this transformation. And then of course there is always a space for all the players to compete with banks more directly trying to reach out to clients, but they need to be wary as well, that this is what is going to happen in banking in 2018, 19 and 20 in Europe and regulation is going to drive this process because it’s based upon client protection, transparency and privacy of the data.

Joern: And what I also take from you is that you are seeing what’s happening to the banks and how they interact with FinTech’s, how the FinTech’s can them self help there, get involved there and I would now like to hear something from Luca side. Luca? How do you see the FinTech side?

Luka: Yeah, so I mean being in Fintech ourselves. We’re looking at obviously as Paolo was mentioning there’s a lot to do with the regulation and PSD2 which is changing quite a few things but looking at it really from the consumer perspective, it’s quite interesting. It’s like the app store like the Apple App Store in 2008, when Apple came out with the App store, people didn’t really know what’s going to happen right and PSD 2 is similar in that fashion where it allows developers and different companies to leverage and take so much data from different banks. And to be able to use that to create new financial products so I think that’s a huge advantage for not only FinTech’s like us at Penta but also for developers and people who were never bankers.

Joern: I just love you for the quote PSD2 is like the iTunes store of the European Union I do believe a lot of people at the European Union will love you for that.

Luka: I know because it’s, I mean you mentioned PSD2 and it sounds like this crazy financial I mean something like a boring FinTech term right. I mean it really is but if you look at what it is actually it’s really just like it’s the AppStore in 2008 and this App Store ended up enabling companies like Uber, Snapchat and millions of actually other apps which have created millions of jobs.  I think PSD 2 is going to do something similar.

Paolo: I also like his line and I would like to go back to one of the last articles which are published with Robin Kiera who’s also German guy and the title was ‘Innovation is not an app you can download from your Apple store’ and I want to elaborate on this one as we mentioned the ITunes. Because just having access to two APIs which allow integration of data in a stronger way compared to the past like screen scrapping is not enough to make sure that we generate value for the clients and we transform the way they do banking themselves. If there’s something that the dot-com showcase it to us and we learned in the last twenty years of the Internet revolution is that ultimately only the platforms really win. Let me explain this, if you think of Facebook, Facebook is the platform for my personal life, Linked In is a platform for my professional life, Amazon is my platform for consumption, Twitter may be the platform for my Donald Trump paranoia. Uber can be the platform for my transportation, right. But where is the platform for my financial life, for my banking? Does it really exist? Now, creating a platform for financial life means that we should start offering to the client a set of services in a way that there may be willing to pay for services like cars and revenues for the Fintech or for the bank, think about the Amazon Prime and all of the products that go underneath that can be mortgages, loans, investment products insurance products, retirement products, still are relevant but not in terms of generating the revenues for institutions so they reduce the conflict of interest and  they’re willing to provide more services that are for advice for decision making to their clients. That means being capable of using APIs not just for payments but to track everything that happens in the life of an individual and being capable of personalizing these relationships across multiple channels, across multiple verticals that are now dominating the banking relationship.

Now, having a platform which is a Fintech platform and it is trans centric means that we need to resolve the simple problem of each and every bit of us and that I try to explain it this way. I work for I.B.M. such as you guys work` for other companies. Minus what I pay, when I do my consumption is what I save and if I’m good at saving I can invest I can let them borrow; think about a peer to peer, I can do retirement I can donate, I can insure. I can do many things. N

Now, all of these elements sit together this is the banking relationship that banks need to generate and those FinTech’s or those banks will be capable of rebuilding themselves as a digital platform enabling to climb up the personal financial equation will be the winner twenty years from now. And we’ve already seen some companies trying to do that let’s think about what happened this year 2017 to me is amazing. A few weeks ago, Pay Pal announced that they would integrate a corner into their solution so that when you go and check your payments on Pay Pal. You may also be capable of having a view of your investments and because of these sums in funding with a corner, they’re going to create them into their platform. Now what the Pay Pal is doing is they started from payments. Right, one minus paying is saving and they’re now going back` moving into investments. Why do they do that? Because Facebook bought the banking license in Atlanta beginning of the year. PSD2 is coming next year so Facebook has to get into payments anyway because of other reason that we might want to discuss in another moment. So, if Facebook enters into payment then PayPal’s business model is at risk so they need to differentiate themselves a lot more that’s the reason why they climb out of the personal equation so anybody that wants to create a new bank or any bank that wants to transform to become more digital needs to bear in mind that all banking was  based upon pillars, new bank is not based upon pillars is based upon services, because services are more important than products.

Joern: Yeah and talking about the pillars in the past, it was always like you had corporate banking, you had retail banking, you had wealth management, you had capital markets, there were all of the pillars of a bank and they were selling different products like investment products hedging products, loan products and all of this stuff. And you’re saying they’re getting away from there?

Paolo: Yes, I’m saying that they’re getting away from there for two reasons in the US may be a bit more spontaneous process because of competition that squeezes the margins to the limit that’s why even Blackrock has to change the business by little by little. But in Europe, it’s going to be due to regulation because all of these guys have certain incentives inside their institutions to do business in a certain way so only regulators can force a change of the incentives and therefore motivate banks to engage into these transformations. Which is the reason why in my last year at seller for Fintech innovation I had a clear message inside that was picked up about one of the first robot visor entrepreneurs that put a tweet out there in September last year saying this tower sits on is a very strange point of view in this Fintech innovation? He says that the regulation is the engine of innovation and I say yes, it is. Because if most of the FinTech’s in the U.S. and the large part of the Fin techs in Europe have a B2B type of configuration. Banks are not buying technology innovation if they’re not forced to do that because they’re heavily troubled and they’re going to be even more troubled in the coming two years because the ECB decided that the non-performing loan has to be basically getting off of their balance sheets and recognized a zero value and therefore they will further increase the transformation of their portfolios and the way they do business.

So since banks are in this situation and regulators want them to become more transparent in front of the clients, they have two alternatives. On one side they can follow the digital transformation, somehow becoming volume businesses because they simplify the products they simplify client access to their services and they try to be more convenient in providing the same type of opportunities to the clients they have out there. But there’s a problem with the strategy the problem is that if you go down the line imagine ten years from now and banks become more simplified in Berlin businesses, that is when Amazon or Facebook or WeChat can come to the market and take over their clients because they have many more touch points with individual customers. The other alternative for banks is to engage into this transformation and used Fintech not to commoditize but to generate more of the value so that they differentiate themselves because they become the platform for individuals’ financial lives. This way will be more complicated for tech fiends to the big giants like the Gaffa to get into the banking market. And they’re getting into banking in any case not because they want to become banks but as we said before because they’re started to compete for the one among the others they see the business model of the Chinese tech fiend they started from conversations in payments so they have to get into payments and once they’re into payments is a moment they would get into saving, investing, insuring so on and so forth because you know appetite comes from eating.

Joern: Sorry Luka we’ve been talking a lot here in Frankfurt.

Luka: No, it’s alright, it’s quite it’s quite interesting actually.

Joern: Paulo has always been talking about how the forcing of the banks that are happening now and that will happen next year. Are you guys actually realizing something from this push, that is coming so meaning are there a lot of banks stopping by say ‘hey guys, how are you doing?’ Shall we sit down and have a talk in all of this stuff?

Luka: Yes, so we often get calls from different consultancies or the big banks to talk with mainly their innovation departments. They basically just want free consulting. We must tell them how to do their job. But, I think that it’s true if you ask any Fintech they’ll tell you the exact same thing. What’s actually interesting is that you look at the Deutsche banks and the big guys and then the innovation which I mean PSD2 write its aim for 2018 but the real guys who are innovating without even being forced are banks like Solaris Bank which is our partner bank or Rels Bank which is FinTech without a banking license. So, these guys are saying you know they took PSD2 more as a philosophy instead of a regulation. They said let’s do PSD2 even though it’s not here, so they have this PSd2 without even having to embrace it which I think is fantastic and that enabled companies like let’s say Number twenty-six when they started out 2013 that enabled guys like us. So, it’s more about having the mentality that this is the right way to go, instead of necessarily saying Alright we have to do this. And for the big banks the main problem is not necessarily saying ‘yeah we have to open up our data’. The problem is that they haven’t even built their banks on API driven approach they have all these legacy systems, so they’re essentially forced the build things from zero and that’s actually the biggest problem so it’s I mean PSD2 helps everybody. I think there’s no doubt about that it’s more of a technological question for the banks and I mean that’s why they come to us and kind of ask “hey do we get some free consultant?’

Paulo: Well, I do agree with you the API is a philosophy or a way of doing I mean you need to comply with better ways that makes some sense and why it makes no sense. Then clearly if you’re already running a business and you have a series of problem face to face.  I guess only the regulation, my force to shed the right attention to this. Which is a competitive element and again not just because PSD2 will be there and everything changes next year. Because he’s about to deliver in the A.P.I. and is about to use it in the right way but it forces to think of the banking architecture needs to be different and data needs to be available to create better services for the clients because it is your data, it is not the bank’s data.

Joern: Yeah that’s exactly it, because everybody could be PSD2 compliant and then just do it half asked, to put it very bluntly, you know just to get over the regulation because it’s actually terrible. So I mean you can’t really force somebody to do it. Everybody can always do it 1% over the finish line. It’s about really embracing it and going 110% above it so I agree with that.

Paolo: You see my other point of view is that aggregation becomes very important, aggregation of services for example aggregations of solution. And these are where the Fintech themselves will be able to aggregate and work with the other to create a strong opposition. I know it’s difficult because every entrepreneur has his own point of view and his own pride about that. But again, and again only the platforms can win on Digital so staying to specialize but not help especially the moment revenue generation mechanism moves out of products and moves into services, so products means you can be sustainable and if you can grow very fast, extremely fast which is not easy in banking. Services means that you need to put more than one added value onto your platform to invite clients to pay for a position, to pay for a different type of a developer position. Now let’s think about what happened in the US too in the space of the advisors, which is also relevant element in 2017. Better man which is one of the robot visors and one of the most famous in the US together with wealth front was born like a B2C. So then decided then to move like B2C. To provide solutions to financial advisor networks in 2016 and in 2017 decided to hire human advisors to move forward. Why because a lot of guys Fin tech underestimate the fact that even innovation is cool, and it is cool might not be enough to change the way people do banking for a set of reasons. And one of these reasons is for the fact that while digital is a poor technology investing and insurance primarily are push economies that means that, when you go to the supermarket as an individual you go and pool your bread, you pool your beers or you pool your shampoos from the shelves and then maybe there’s an advertisement that invites you to buy something else that’s pushed to you. But you typically go with a purpose you’re a [29:56] never told me Paulo, ‘let’s take a look at what is going on Amazon’ right. You go on Amazon to buy my books and they receive somebody else’s book and you buy it but it go with a purpose now nobody would ever go in principles on the mobile looking for a UCTS compliant fund which is an investment fund that you can buy from a bank or a certain insurance product. So, it’s way more complicated clearly there are guys like me like your like most of the people that are listening to this podcast today which are fairly advanced in terms of their usage of technology or finance but the majority of the individuals out there still are lagging behind. So that means that you need to find a way to use digital in a way to bridge the gap between the pool technology and the push economy that is the reason why the most successful configurations still are those which have a hybrid morality to operate where we have digital and then you have individuals on the other side that help reaching the gap with the final customer’s. But this is something which is happening too. 2017 was the year of the chatbot very limited very primitive as first examples but they’re growing and they’re getting better. So only with  artificial intelligence we learn to become conversational that will turn digital from poor technology into a push economy and I’ll allow digital to be self -sustained  as a banking proposition for us or in front of a client, which is the reason why AI should be the priority for all of the Fintech if , they can afford it or understand it because that is  the way they will be able to reach out to client and motivate them to do more banking with them without having to create a workforce that is physically very expensive and difficult to organize.

Joern: Got to admit one thing the difference between the investment markets in Europe and the U.S. is quite different because in the US you have more of those IFA Individual Financial Advisors and here in Europe it’s more done via branches but without getting into too much details there. They’re differences but I get your basic point you have to not only be tech non-logical, but you also have to involve the human factor to get people there on the ground like also maybe in branches

Paulo: But again, this is an opportunity for Fin tech in Europe because the MiFiD2 and the PRIIPs regulation which are going into force in January 2018 will have an effect two, three, years down the road which means opening up more of the distribution networks, the distribution` markets which is now dominated by banks and granting more space for networks of financial advisors that cannot do their job without technology because it’s difficult to scale up on competencies. So for the first time there will be transformation, like a transformation of the markets which may favour those Fin tech which are capable of providing their solutions are to their new interpreters, they need to be supported to reach out to the client in convenient ways.

Joern: Since we are almost running half an hour here on our recording just to wrap it a little bit up one more question. Where do you see the Fintech `opportunities for 2018 admittedly we didn’t even touch the ICO craze that is going on right now but that may be subject for another interview look up. Where do you see opportunities for Fin Tech in 2018?

Luka: You know people often hate when you interview somebody and then they tell you I have no idea but just you know 2017 started with a list on our heads because we’re building products for businesses and it flips from a lot of talk of investment banking to now ICOs, how trading and selling cryptos. So, I think things are moving so quickly it’s really hard to predict but the customers are only businesses and start-ups so the start-ups that we’re meeting and speaking to and seeing everybody is building so many incredible products and I’m not just saying that just to say that but I think that Fin tech as a whole is moving so quickly that whichever solution or whichever problem you need it probably already exists or somebody is working on it. I just think that maybe 2018 or maybe it’s going to be 2019 when all those solutions service and going back to what Paulo said it’s about putting that on one platform, right. The guys who can aggravate that and put them in one place so it’s super easy to use, I think that’s going to go a little bit beyond 2018 but 2018, 2019 maybe even 2020 is when we we’ll really start seeing the benefits of FinTech.

Paolo: So, this is my point of view now if you look at the Fin Tech to assist them would typically divide it into pay tech, insure tech at World tech, a credit tech and so on and so forth honestly makes no sense again because if you talk about client’s neutrality then the client has always won and it need to be capable of buying an advisor relationship from Fin tech or a financial institution to make decisions about his money in his life. But so, it is now it is also true as Luca said that a lot of innovation officers are paying some of them, have been doing some window shopping more than anything else because effectively. Those guys are wonderful individuals are trying to change a bank but they’re not the final holder of the budget. So, it’s very difficult even for them to sell internally the innovation that they’ve found that side or they wanted to go innovate with a Fintech. Because they need to find a way to motivate the management to transform what they said to the client there and now they ask clients to pay for those services because it changes everything it changes their incentives it changes their mentality, their way of doing.

But if you look at banks in the last two years or three years we can never see a bank launching at peer to peer platform we can either say a bank loan should clear a cryptocurrency for you to trade them. But we saw something very clear, some banks launch that there rob-advisors. Why? Because most of the banks in the Western world are transforming into world management institutions just take a look at their balance sheet look at the European banks. The major banks may have more than 50% now or their revenues coming from world management. What is world management? World management means investment products and insurance products which are sold to a retail individual, affluent clients, and high net worth with their high net worth and above. Now being these, the major pocket of money that they generate at the yearend knowing that the credit market will be troubled for a few years still, so they will contract their lending operations, or they will contract that their mortgage operations. They need to make sure that they don’t miss out on the opportunities on the world management market but they also know there regulations coming in Europe that might affect the Margins that generate with the world management operations and at the same time, in the US they see that the competition that was brought to the market by Vanguard which is like a powerhouse on E.T.F. or like Black Rock or black rock itself with high shares reduce their capability of making money. That’s why they were more keen to buy and to create solutions that that was addressing the world management market bank of Montreal, a launch the robot visor is so Merrill Lynch with announcement and the others positioning you saw Union investment that had there solutions here in Germany.

Joern: Or just recently Deutsche bank with Robin their robo-advisor

Paulo: Or the Deutsche bank now. Not saying that that these are final solutions they will break through and transform the banks, but it clearly indicates that at least on one of these Fintech pillars which is World Tech banks are starting to take action in 2016 and 2017. Now they will need to do more and definitely in Europe two 2018, 2019 to me would be a better place for the World tech solutions which are capable of helping bank to transform doesn’t really mean to replace what they do if you’re a B2B Fin Tech or means to find the way to help them to go through this journey that that moves them from transactions or to services.

Joern: That was a lot to digest guys greatly appreciate all your thoughts Paolo looking more into the banking space and what it means for FinTech Luka from the Fin Tech area and me I basically just had to listen and add some content. Very great interview guys really appreciate you coming here, having you here and I really hope we can continue this next year.

Luka: Thanks a lot

Paolo: Yes and don’t forget that at the beginning of this show the bitcoin was sixteen thousand in the meeting it was fifteen thousand, now it might be eighteen thousand who knows.

Joern: Yes, keep it going on track right. Right, yes. Guys thank you very much.