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8:00 PM
Where there isn't sound data is murders with a legally obtained and carried weapon. i.e. the person wasn't breaking the law until they pulled the trigger.
To give you some idea of the relative risk, though....
I think we are discussing much about guns in "America" (Which is Actually the United States of America, America is the CONTINENT). Not sure if Uncle Sam is a parameter of righteousness or ethics
@TheSnarkKnight There are so many bad doctors. That's who they need to go after.
@ChrisE I don't mean to disparage yourself or any of the other responsible gun owners and I understand this is an emotive subject. I'm also not in any way advocating for a ban on private gun ownership.. but the current gun control legislation in the US is woefully inadequate IMO
8:01 PM
@ChrisE tell me about it, medical mistakes are the #3 killer in the USA
@DarkCygnus I don't think anyone's ever suggested that the gubmint has ethics.
@motosubatsu the problem with the gun laws is that they are not being enforced
The notion that you have to have training and a license to drive a car but any numpty with a clean record can buy an assault rifle and just leave it lying around the house is really insane
@TheSnarkKnight that too
@motosubatsu so much so that in the USA, the areas with the most strict gun laws have the most shootings
not even a joke.
@motosubatsu Honestly, there are only 2 things that are needed in my opinion. 1) Require private sales to go through FFL holders and 2) mandate training.
8:04 PM
@ChrisE add proper secure storage requirements and I'm with you on that
@motosubatsu and you can even compare Houston Texas and Chicago Illinaois. two nearly identical cities, Chicago has tough gun laws and has more shootings than you'd believe, and in Houston, where you can carry a gun, much less gun crime and deaths
@motosubatsu proper storage to me means easy access
@TheSnarkKnight whereas I say the opposite
@motosubatsu Nope. A locked up gun is a paperweight. Negligence laws also cover improperly stored firearms used in crimes. They just need to stop saying "they've suffered enough by losing _____ "
someone breaks into your home, they ain't gonna wait
@motosubatsu are you going to ask the home invader to hold on while you open your gun safe, then go for your separately stored ammunition?
@TheSnarkKnight I seem to recall that you're more likely to have an intruder kill you with your own gun then the other way around
@TheSnarkKnight no.. but then I wouldn't be using a gun for home defense
8:07 PM
@motosubatsu if it's a gun safe, you are correct
@motosubatsu I'm a broken down old man with diabetic neuropathy who couldn't stand a chance against a single intruder, what if two break in? How would I defend myself?
Better yet, how would my SO's 81 year old mother defend herself? She's 5'4 and 90 lbs?
@TheSnarkKnight I'm a 56kg weakling with crippling osteoarthritis.. I don't feel the need to have a gun to be safe
nor does my 73 year old mother who is about 5'2
@motosubatsu My wife's ex-husband has a permanent (i.e. lifetime, not until the kids turn 18, etc.) restraining order against him for abuse and promised future abuse. You'll never see my wife without a gun unless she's in court or an airport.
And I don't know anyone who carries to "feel safe". They carry to be able to defend themselves if it's needed.
@ChrisE defend themselves against what? (I'm not snarking, genuine question)
Anyone wishing to do them or their loved ones harm. It's rare, yes. But so are fires. That doesn't mean I don't have a fire extinguisher, even though I could just call the fire department. The difference with violence though is that a fire isn't going to try to rob you or kill you.
Violence can happen anywhere and while carrying a weapon (and being trained how to use it) doesn't guarantee you'll survive that rare occurrence, it at least gives you a chance to defend yourself.
I remember one time about 2 years ago, my wife was driving and she got cut off by someone. This guy and his girlfriend, feeling they were cut off got out and started screaming at her. The both of them started coming toward the car. She put her revolver on the dashboard. They turned around and left.
That's something that no statistic can ever track.
@ChrisE and if she hadn't had the gun?
I ask because I've had nigh-on identical experiences to that, I don't have anything comparable to that revolver and yet strangely I'm still here to talk about it
8:20 PM
@motosubatsu Unknowable. The 2 of them were coming toward the car in an aggressive manner. Any number of things could have happened, from assault to murder.
@ChrisE and if they had seen the gun, pulled theirs in response and started firing? would the gun have been making her safer or not there?
again that's a genuine question
@motosubatsu That's not human nature. There's this silly notion that when a criminal sees a gun, they're more likely to shoot. In reality, they're more likely to not shoot because criminals prey on the helpless.
Is it a guarantee? No. But if a person was advancing aggressively on a car and is the type of person to engage another because they display a weapon, then she's in even more danger without it. Criminals prey on the helpless more often than not.
@ChrisE the statistics don't agree: ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/abs/10.2105/…
Who's more likely to get mugged? Me, a 6'1" 210 lb man, or my daughter a 5'1" 110 lb woman?
those carrying guns are 4.5 times more likely to be shot then those who don't
and 4.2 times more likely to be killed
8:30 PM
@ChrisE I don't know how they mug you in your State, but in my country having a gun while being mugged can be worse, as the thief could panic and shoot you if you attempt to play James Bond or Bruce Lee.
That's unknowable. Also, that study has bad methodology and is statistical bias at its worst.
I think that on its core this is a matter of personal preference, as well as local and international regulations. If you want to have a gun you can surely do, but hopefully with the proper check and process to obtain so.
It's also a cultural thing in part, for example in my City you seldom see guns, unless from PO, bodyguards, etc.
That one has a much broader sample and is national, not some tiny little sample with ridiculous controls attempting to make a point.
But on the eastern provinces it is more common to have one, as those provinces have a more... cowboy-like? look and feel
Funny, the Wild West in Guatemala is actually on the East
@ChrisE I'll admit statistics aren't my strong suit but surely it can't be completely rubbish - AJPH is peer reviewed and has a decent reputation, I became aware of that study after reading articles around it's findings which seemed to suggest it was intriguing as a starting point but that further study was needed
8:37 PM
@DarkCygnus Sure, that's a risk. And that's why training is important.
@ChrisE training would definitely go a long way in my book
@motosubatsu You can't draw a sound conclusion on such narrow data, small sample and arbitrary assumptions and control values. That's why the Tark and Kleck study I cited is more credible.
@ChrisE I'll have a read of Tark & Kleck at some point :)
I have no axe to grind here... so I'm happy to be proven wrong
any thoughts on how to deal with the straw purchase issues?
IIRC the ATF states that's pretty much the no.1 way that illegal guns get into the system
You can't just assume that everyone that has a gun is going to try to use it. Good training will teach you when it's a good idea and when it'll get you killed. If a person is standing behind you, tells you to give him your wallet and you try to turn around and shoot him, yeah, you're probably gonna die.
@motosubatsu Every sale should go through an FFL holder, period. I think it should also count for gifting firearms too. The FFL can charge a fee. The same rules for receiving a firearm should apply as when you purchase one.
For instance, I can walk into a gun shop in GA and buy a gun and walk out with it. Why? Because I have a carry permit. The background check has already been done. And they'll do another one when I renew it in January.
My son, however, will never get a carry permit because he has a drug conviction.
@ChrisE yep.. but that's the thing, most guns used in crimes have come from FFL holders
8:45 PM
Bear in mind that my opinion on gun transfers differs than most pro-gun people.
I can't remember the figures off hand but it dwarfs the numbers of stolen ones
@ChrisE I think if the transfer/sale process was much more rigidly controlled you'd massively reduce the number of illegal guns out there
@motosubatsu I agree. As long as it's not too onerous, I have no problem filling out more paperwork and paying a $20 fee to buy a $200 gun.
does your permit ever need a renewal or some kind of periodic checking?
Yeah, it expires every 5 years.
But can also be revoked.
@ChrisE do they ever do any checking on what happens to the guns you purchase afterwards?
(sorry for all the questions)
8:52 PM
Questions are fine.
Unless they're used in a crime? Nope. At least not in GA. We don't have to register weapons. Some states require that firearms and/or just handguns be registered.
thanks, another one - is there any limit to the number or type of guns your permit enables you to purchase/own?
If it's a legal firearm, I can own as many as I want.
Interesting fact about GA. Even if I don't have a carry permit, if I'm not precluded from getting one (because of my background), I can conceal a gun in my own vehicle. Many states require a permit to put one in your glove compartment. GA doesn't.
However, some states allow you to open carry without a permit. GA does not. If you carry openly, you must have a permit.
Again, the exception being in your own vehicle.
@ChrisE doesn't that (coupled with a lack of registration and follow up) just leave it wide open to straw purchases?
do the vehicle provisions require you to be with the car while the guns are?
A straw purchase is, in itself, a federal crime. That's why Snark was saying earlier that part of the problem is that the laws aren't enforced. 10 years and 250k fine. But it's rarely prosecuted.
@motosubatsu Nope. But think about it. I can't carry a gun in a courthouse or a federal building. I need to leave it in my car. Negligence laws still apply though. If you're an idiot and leave it on the seat or something, you can be charged.
@ChrisE it seems to me that this is the biggest area where they could make improvements - as you and @TheSnarkKnight were saying earlier the legal gun owners aren't the problem
9:04 PM
I'd be happy if the FBI had a task force to go after straw purchases and make examples out of them, very publicly.
Sell a gun to a felon? See you in 10 years and now you can't ever own a gun because you're a felon now.
@ChrisE you see over here you can't leave your guns in a car without you, but then I suppose we can have that rule since you would only ever be transporting the gun, we have no concept that allows you to have a gun with you in day to day life
@ChrisE on that we can agree wholeheartedly!
Different culture, to be sure. I can carry my gun on public transportation even, open (which I don't do) or concealed.
so in any given week how many days would you carry?
what precautions to do take against someone else using it?
other than concealing I mean
I'm uncommon in that I think legit concealed carry is safer than open
9:12 PM
inside the waistband holster. I also have good situational awareness and don't let many people get too close, especially on my right side.
does the shoulder have a restraining strap (sorry not sure of correct terminology)
It's not a shoulder holster. I have one similar to this (and that's the gun I carry)
so excuse me if this is a dumb question but if you get jostled and fall over..can it well fall out?
or is it pretty snug?
It's really snug. It doesn't move at all. It's also usually covered by a jacket or loose shirt.
So you carry a gun, but in a way that it is difficult to pull out quickly to shoot people? Doesn't it subtracts from its purpose?
Good thing you don't carry it under your belt or underwear lol
9:23 PM
@ChrisE I really do appreciate you answering all my questions..I know we are probably never going to see eye-to-eye on the gun subject in general but I'm genuinely interested to know about both view points, and it's nice to converse with a "pro-gun" person without them going all "Cold dead hands" on me :)
Yeah, definitely a cultural thing this one. I still can't see that as "normal", but I am sure it is more common on your state
@motosubatsu thats because Chris is a nice guy regardless he has a gun or not, or he is pro-guns or not :)
And yeah, good, moderated talk today
@DarkCygnus It's not difficult to unholster at all. And I practice doing just that. Not to mention, I don't want "quickly shoot" anyone. You don't point a gun at someone you're not ready to kill. But it's not a reaction, it's a decision. "easily" is more important than "quickly"
@ChrisE So.. home invasions: I realize this can be a controversial subject but how much of a realistic fear is it where you are? It's been a while since I saw any up to date stats but the last figures I saw suggested that Burglary-Homicides only numbered around 100 nationwide in 2012
obviously that doesn't account for any that would have resulted in homicide but the person defended themselves
I ask because over here the overwhelmingly most likely reason someone would break into my house while I'm here is to take my car keys
which is itself pretty rare..and frankly it's why my car keys live by the front door - if they want the car that badly they can have it
I don't make decisions based on statistics. For instance, I personally drop my daughter off at the bus and my wife personally pics her up from the bus. It's not that far from where we live to the bus stop. There's probably a 1 in 100000 chance that something would happen if she walked home on her own. But she will not be that 1.
Unfortunately, home invasions do happen. Are they common where I am? Nope. But they do happen.
Realistically, my wife's ex-husband is a greater threat than a home invasion, but not everyone has that to worry about.
@ChrisE I can appreciate that..and I'd probably do the same as you if I had a daughter FWIW, surely stats have to play some part in that risk assessment though? when I was talking about the numbers of burglary-homicides earlier it was because at the time when I was looking at it you were over 5 times more likely to die in an accidental gun death then a burglary homicide in the US, suggesting that in attempting to protect against what people perceived as a large threat
they were actually increasing their chances of dying
@ChrisE I can appreciate that..if there was ever a scenario where I could see myself advocating for guns-as-self-defense a stituation like your wife's would be it
in fact I could see myself supporting a program specifically for situations like that - if you can help a vulnerable person avoid living a life of perpetual fear by letting them have a weapon and the training to use it then that's something I can get behind
9:41 PM
@motosubatsu The reason I don't let statistics influence me is because of the reason behind accidental gun deaths. I grew up around guns. They're not a toy. You use them the safe way, lock them up when they're not within personal reach, and you don't shoot at what you can't identify.
Regardless of statistics, I'm not worried about accidental shootings because I know how to handle a gun and I know how and when to use and not use them. Too many idiots shoot at a noise. No. Just, no. And idiots that do that should get prosecuted.
@ChrisE which sounds like a sensible philosphy.. I guess the issue is more for the wider public, as I said earlier I actually think you come across as a really sensible gun owner - it's the millions out there without a whole brain cell or lick of common sense that scare the bejesus out of me
@ChrisE yep.. it may or may not be a hollywood conceit but the image of the dumbass jock called brad or chad or something who flashes a gun around during a party at his place because it's "cool" is a worrying one - and about as far removed from a responsible gun owner like yourself as I can imagine
They don't scare me because they're more at risk than those around them. It's extraordinarily rare for a legal carrier to use it in a crime.
@ChrisE would you support a mandatory nationwide training program for legal owners?
@motosubatsu that's a crime called brandishing.
@ChrisE that's actually good to know that it's illegal!
9:49 PM
@motosubatsu for legal carriers, yes. For legal owners, no. Owning is a right. Carrying is a little different.
@ChrisE yep. Don't pull a gun unless you are going to use it, don't point it at anyone unless you're going to shoot, and don't shoot unless you intend to kill.
In the US, each state has its own rules for issuing permits. There's a concept called reciprocity where one state can recognize permits from other states. I can legally carry in 33 states. There's this push for national reciprocity where a state MUST recognize another's permit, like they do with driver's licenses...
I'm a rare pro-gun person in that I oppose national reciprocity.
@motosubatsu a "national" anything for the USA is a bad idea.
@TheSnarkKnight Exactly. I'm a states-rights person and if NY wants to keep me from carrying in their state, they should have that right.
@motosubatsu please don't take Hollywood seriously. They seem to think you can shoot someone in the hand, to disarm them, or the leg to disable them. Let me tell you about a little thing called the Femoral artery....
shoot someone in the leg and they can bleed out in a few minutes
@ChrisE the sad thing is, all that people outside of the USA ever see is what our media presents, and it presents us in a very bad light.
9:56 PM
or that shooting someone can knock them back. I carry a .45 which is a big gun. But it's not knocking anyone off their feet or killing them instantly unless I hit them in the right place.
The .45 has been around for over 100 years but a .22 has long been the hitman's gun of choice.
10:08 PM
@ChrisE Why the difference if I may ask? Surely gun safety is still just as good an idea in the home as it is in the street?
@TheSnarkKnight oh I don't, believe me - that was purely an isolated thing. I'm well aware that Hollywood Ballistics are not representative of how guns work
Because gun ownership is a right and it doesn't affect anyone outside that person's property if he's obeying the law. When you're carrying, your lack of knowledge could harm someone who didn't choose to be around you like on your property.
Training is tantamount to asking the government permission to exercise a right. It's a principle thing.
@ChrisE I actually think this is were the biggest cultural difference comes from - the idea of owning a gun being a "right" is hugely alien to me. It's something that is designed to kill people and can easily do so accidentally, to me owning something like that should be treated with the highest possible respect and care
@ChrisE you realize that bullets don't respect property boundaries right?
if you accidentally set your gun off in your living room and the bullet travels out of the window and hits me as I walk past it's still going to hurt
all the training in the world won't stop stupidity and carelessness. I don't assume that someone without formal training is careless just like I don't assume those with training are necessarily careful. To wit...
@ChrisE erm..where does it say that guy was trained?
yeah, wrong link.
On the other hand, ordinary citizens regularly also use their guns to save lives.
I gotta go, it's quittin time. Take care
10:21 PM
ok that makes more sense.. but I would still maintain that proper training will reduce accidents, it's obviously not quite the same thing but as someone who has done a fair bit of archery in my time I've definitely seen the way the safety training gets ingrained over time in newbies - AND how it gets safer as they do
laters @ChrisE - thanks for that chat!
