how long is giving apropriate?

Submitted by fleur_rare on
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Hello there, I posted in the "Book"-Section about my story:
and I need help with the question above.

I KNOW that it is good to have an open heart, but is it still good for me in this situation to keep my heart open in his direction, while he is giving nothing back? We are far away from each other now, no physical contact, no date fixed, and very little contact at all right now. And I feel so drained and torn and hurt. What good is it to let good energy flow to him when it is just gobbled up?

How could I keep my heart open and NOT be drained in this situation? Any suggestions? Any experiences? I feel a strong urge to close myself now to protect me from further hurt.


I will speak to this since I was recently in a long-distance (about ten thousand miles) relationship with someone that never became physical.
Part of the reason I was in the relationship was the emotional and spiritual connection I felt with my partner. When that stopped abruptly, I had to do the same soul searching you are doing, and "feel", with my heart and gut and NOT my head, what was the best thing for me to do. Speaking strictly for myself, I am no longer willing or able to extend my heart, energy and time to someone who is not available to me emotionally.
I hear your genuine desire to connect with another person, your desire to connect in a different way than you have previously. It's possible to keep your heart open, even if you choose to close it for now around one particular person. I discovered that the heart connection I had with my partner opened me to a deeper level of love and connection with other people around me and with myself. When I am feeling "drained and torn and hurt", the kindest thing I can do is to be gentle with myself. I surround myself with beauty. I get out in nature. I connect with people who love me. I get as many hugs as possible from people who feel safe to me. It sounds like you have learned some important things in your interaction with this person in your life, and that's always a good thing.
If you're new, welcome to the site. Keep writing. I think you will find us a very supportive community.


TRUST. This may have been a learning situation - as opposed to your ideal relationship - but it was not a mistake in the larger picture. You did nothing *wrong.*

Think about your situation as helping each other to prepare for your right mates (who may not be each other). Believe me, when your right mate comes along, you want to be ready! And it's unlikely that he will be so far away, or have such a large age difference.

For now, send this man light and be grateful that he helped you learn what you learned. Do your best to stay centered for the next two weeks, and *then* look back at the experience. You will see it differently. Let him do the same, and don't try to manipulate the situation in any way meanwhile. Let him learn what he learns. My husband and I always laugh that we learn more about this practice when we have an inadvertent orgasm than when we stick to it! (Above all, we learn why we want to stick to it.) Let your friend learn, too, and don't push, or his feelings will be projected onto you. None of us wants to see how much orgasm changes our perception.

Take some deep breaths, and trust your inner guidance. It's showing you what you need to know, or unblock, or both, in order to connect with another in the deepest way possible.

One of the things we all need is 'unconditional love' skills. That means we love the person, even if he doesn't give us what we want him to give. We love him because, at some level he is one of our brothers, and we want to see him healed and happy...the same things we want for ourselves.

Remember, like attracts like, so if you want to attract a partner who will love you unconditionally....

I know you're hurting. Keep talking to us.

A big hug,

the lamb...

I appreciate your opinion and knowledge very much, Marnia. thank you for your time and input! I know that on one side you are right.
I am thinking a lot about just consequenzes. Scare an animal and it will flee, touch a fire and it will burn you, stand in the rain and you'll get wet, sun will dry and warm you... No revenge, no punishment, just consequenzes. What consequenzes does he get out of taking female essence and not giving male essence back? ->Improvement of his live, energy, focus, well-being, the urge to separate, disrespect for love and relationship etc.
What did I teach him then? Selfishness leads to great success, to healing oneself, and "who should care about somebody else"?
"Some people are designed to give and some people are designed to take" like Marquis de Sade pointed it out in his atrocious book. "Nobody cares about what happens to those who are designed to give. They just serve and then go to garbage."
To go further on in giving like I did is creating an essence-vampire to my opinion.
Unconditional love in a platonic way might be ok.

Charity begins with you...

I hear your heart hurting, wondering what you were doing, giving away so much of yourself and feeling like you were robbed, or you got nothing in return. Maybe so....but, as Marnia said, if you learn from this, it doesn't have to feel like that.
Take all that glorious female essence you speak of, your treasure, the best and highest in you, and nourish YOURSELF with it.
The reason there is an abundance of love in my life today, and new opportunities for loving opening up all around me is because I finally showed myself the respect and regard I longed to be shown by someone else.
Like Marnia said above, if you want to attract a partner who can love unconditionally, that's the kind of love you have to give...and it always, always starts with yourself.
How can you love yourself today? A bubble bath? Nice cup of tea? Spending time with a friend? Listening to some beautiful music? Prayer?
Whatever it is that nourishes your spirit and heart, do that. It gets easier with practice. I promise. I've been there, and it's the finest investment you will ever make.
Keep writing and keep us posted. We understand.


I agree that giving should not be one-way. But the Exchanges call for equal giving between partners. How did it all end up so one-sided?

...the recipe...

We are still in some loose contact now, maybe there is hope, at least for friendship.

How did it end up so one-sided? ...bending the rules... By the time we both knew about the 1st checklist, I had already accepted to try this approach (because of the website). I had my concerns because of the romance-junky-stuff, and first I did not want to start the exchanges because of that. But he wanted to and asked me, and I hoped it would improve our relation and help find solutions for our situation. I was quite enthousiastic about this. And sure I was happy to help in his healing.

We read the book fully when we met last time. Only then I started to understand that it is ALL about mutual giving. Spending time together had to be planned and I felt like not keeping my promise, if I back up now. And I still hoped it will work. He was absolutely against "generously giving in an out of the bedroom", to him it looked like giving up on himself. I still understood (and understand), because I know a lot about his childhood and the deep and horrible scars that he carries. I knew about his unability to cooperate in things that look like "work". I saw it as a developing process, because he has a tender side that tries to show up and seems to ask for help. And he is doing a lot of very couragous psychological work on himself.

Further on: Before having read the book and having started with the exchanges, I did not know that HUNGRY touch is not about wanting SOMEBODY but someTHING. It does not fit with mutual giving. It seems I always have mistaken it for "wanting to love". I understood this with the explanations in exchange Nr. 11. Which means, we were already quite deep into the program (six days before having to leave each other).

Those rules and check-lists are so incorruptible! They show so exactly if something is going wrong and what exactly is going wrong. They show a path that makes it possible to step out of the addiction/separation/hatred-cycle. The "Stay close and quiet"-section of Chapter 10 would have been a better way, I guess, until everybody is able to check the readiness-list fully some day. It still would have been a great challenge, because of the "even though you do not feel up to it, do little things for each other". (as I explained above)

Thanks for the explanation

I'm about to rework the Exchanges for the new book, and I'm thinking about trying to simplify them by emphasizing the list of "bonding cues" in this article: Any thoughts, Prima?

My thought is that the checklists, etc. may not be necessary if we can directly speak to each other's deepest needs using subconscious signals. Otherwise, there can be friction about each other's motives, etc.

My thought is to divide each Exchange into a "yin" and "yang" phase, with the "yin" phase for each being one of these effortless bonding behaviors, and the "yang" phase being something more playful. If couples are too tired to do both, they can just do the "yin" phase that night. If they're feeling frisky Smile they can do the "yang" phase.

Were there any exercises that seemed to bring out the generous side of your partner the most? Did you find the introductions to each Exchange useful? Do you think a shorter introduction would be all right after the first several nights? I was thinking of just offering an inspiring description of karezza-style lovemaking in the later ones.

Thanks for any insights you can offer. It's frustrating to see how much these underloved men are suffering. We have to find a way to nurture them that doesn't drain us, but does help them build trust. I think the simpler bonding behaviors may be the way to do that. The Exchanges have a lot of the bonding behaviors in them, but they're too much like "work." Wink

Anyone else?


I do have some serious-type feedback. J says he found some of the exercises felt "forced" and I somewhat agree with him. Admittedly, sometimes, doing something that feels a little forced is necessary to learn a new way of doing something. In our case, we were doing a lot of those affectionate-type behaviors anyway, so it was a little weird to follow instructions out of a book. On the other hand, I think some structure is a good thing. I kind of agree with the idea where you have an appendix full of activities you can try, and you can take turns picking them out, or make your own. Another idea would be to consider stripping those activities of things that seem confusing or cheesy to a lot of people ("how do you breathe through your heart?" etc). You can easily include references to other matierials that would go into that energy-visualization type stuff in much more depth, for those who are interested.


I was thinking of moving to a "pick and choose" format, too, at least after the first week or so. At the beginning it helps to have a bit more structure, I think. Thereafter, it can get annoying. Smile

Really great ideas!

I think the "adjustments" that you are intending to make in the new edition, Marnia, are truly inspired. As someone who went through the more structured approach of the last edition WAY too many times than what was intended, I resonate with much of what Mitsiky mentioned. Some structure is important, but the most important thing, in my experience, is that partners really have their heart and intentions in the right place. From there, the ability and option to personalize the exchanges would really make the whole experience much more pleasurable, and less like a chore.

I also really like the idea of adding inspiring descriptions of karezza-style lovemaking. I think many people, myself included, would benefit a great deal with a better understanding of what this means.

I am really getting excited now about the new book!

Thanks for the

encouragement. I'm about ready to roll up my sleeves on this part of the project, and I may have to ask some of you to have a look at what I come up with. This goes to the editor in just over two weeks. *biting nails*


I really liked the structure, it made it easy to stick to the recipe. It would have been very difficult and confusing to CHOOSE, because neither of us understood the ingredients yet. And yes, the exchanges are a little bit like "work", and yes they are an artificial framework.

I cannot find any development-teachings direction higher/deeper/true self that do not seem to be "work" and artifical framework. Psychotherapy does help in healing BECAUSE of the artifical framework. Meditation is artificial framework, too. Shamanic journeys, family constellations... Everything that helps in growing starts with seemingly artificial framework.

Discordia pointed out that "Some structure is important, but the most important thing, in my experience, is that partners really have their heart and intentions in the right place." That was what was missing in a way, the right intentions... At the beginning he took the exchanges solely as a kind of exercises. And was angry when I told him that they are not just mechanic exercises.

Imagining breathing through the heart worked very well for us, I like it and it helped him. It is not complicated to imagine. I hope you'll keep it in there. Exchanges that brought out the more generous side of him? The picture of oneself with the words around it. I'll get through them and try to remember. The hands-on-genitals-time-out did help very much, too.

The introductions are great and not too long, it is like understanding and discovering the garden more and more while walking through it. The concept is great for "greenhorns" like me. I'm even a bit scared about the attempt to change it. The checklists are great, too. Did you take them out? Would be a pity.

don't worry...

...I have my copy of the "old" one already. Smile
Poor Marnia, I understand so well how difficult this is... And I don't know what is right here... Ecstatic Exchanges for Beginners - and - Ecstatic Exchanges for Advanced ??? one book???
After all: People who are ready for the message, soak it up and like it, and people who are not will be angry, I think.

You're so right

I'm often amused by how much people complain about the form of my writing...until they have a chance to integrate some of the substance. Then they don't have nearly as much problem with the form. Wink

Hi Prima

Actually, I think what I said about the heart and intentions being in the right place was meant for you (and myself, too). I read what you wrote on the forum, about your experiences with the Exchanges:

[quote=Prima]We went on to exchange Nr 16 (first intercourse exchange), then I had to leave.
The night after my departure he had another (this time strong and ejaculating) dream orgasm and masturbated once ("because the dammage is done already").[/quote]

Admittedly, I really saw this reaction to your partner's dream orgasm as a big red flag. And it stood out to me, because my former partner would do the same thing all the time. A dream orgasm, or other inadvertent "slip" was like a free pass to have as many more orgasms as possible in a day. I do understand the reasoning behind this, and the added frustration caused by the first ejaculation, but to me, it seems that your partner (like my former) are still more concerned with release through orgasm, than with real intimacy.

I'm not saying that this is an issue that can be resolved, I just haven't figured out how to resolve it quite yet. :)


with a clearer understanding of how bonding cues work, men won't find it as burdensome to make the transition...and we won't either. Wink That should make it easier for everyone to stay in integrity.