2009.03.11 13:00 - Anyone I Can't See Yet

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Pema Pera, who did not have time this week to write comments :(

    Fael Illyar: Hi Wester :)
    Fael Illyar: Hi Mickorod :)
    Mickorod Renard: hi,,dont know whether i should be here or at kira
    Fael Illyar: how come?
    Mickorod Renard: well,,I am all at a loss with the time change and whats on what days
    Fael Illyar: well, things go with SL time here I think
    Fael Illyar: and right now it says 1pm :)
    Fael Illyar: which means the time for PaB :)
    Fael Illyar: Hi Pema :)
    Mickorod Renard: yes,,and I should chill,,and follow my instincts
    Mickorod Renard: hiya Pema
    Pema Pera: Hi Mick, Fael, Wester!
    Wester Kiranov: hi pema
    Pema Pera admiring Fael's pristine appearance!
    Mickorod Renard: you are looking very radiant tonite Fael
    Mickorod Renard: snap Pema
    Pema Pera: in constrast with the black of the three of us
    Pema Pera: haha, Mick!
    Fael Illyar smiles 'Thank you.'
    Fael Illyar: Hi Udge :)
    Pema Pera: Wester, you mentioned that you had started looking in the Time Space Knowledge (TSK) book again
    Pema Pera: hi Udge
    Mickorod Renard: Hi udge
    Pema Pera: and that it made more sense now
    Udge Watanabe: hello pema, wester, fael, mick, and anyone I can't see yet :)
    Pema Pera: :-)
    Mickorod Renard: grin
    Pema Pera: "the unknown avatar"
    Udge Watanabe grins
    Wester Kiranov: not really again - the previous time was just a short look really
    Wester Kiranov: hi udge
    Pema Pera: what sense are you getting from it now, if I may ask, Wester?
    Mickorod Renard: is the time space knowledge book a publication?
    Fael Illyar has a shop almost ready for customers now.
    Wester Kiranov: the way it talks about space connects with me
    Mickorod Renard: ooooo
    Pema Pera: yes, Mick
    Mickorod Renard: I am interested in time
    Pema Pera: http://www.amazon.com/Time-Space-Kno.../dp/0913546089
    Wester Kiranov: but there are also many things that are still very counterintuitive
    Fael Illyar: Hi Fefonz :)
    Pema Pera: such as?
    Mickorod Renard: hi fefonz
    Udge Watanabe: hello fefonz
    Pema Pera: (what kind of shop, Fael?)
    Wester Kiranov: hi fef
    Fael Illyar: so far only selling this tattoo you can see on my right now :)
    Fefonz Quan: Hi All
    Mickorod Renard: is there a group within kira that discusses time?
    Fefonz Quan: (and sorry wester, didn't see you rezzing befoer)
    Fael Illyar: what kind of things are there that you find counterintuitive?
    Wester Kiranov: (taking another look at TSK to see if I can find examples)
    Fefonz Quan: yes mick, today at 11am SLT
    Pema Pera: yes, every Wednesday at 11 am
    Pema Pera: two hours ago :)
    Mickorod Renard: oww
    Pema Pera: http://www.kira.org/index.php?option...135&Itemid=165
    Fefonz Quan: if you find wester, give a page too :))
    Mickorod Renard: its just that I have had some odd ,erm,,experiences with it
    Udge Watanabe: with time?
    Fefonz Quan: do tell
    Pema Pera is all ears
    Mickorod Renard: well,,I dont normally talk about it..if fear someone may think I am mad
    Fefonz Quan: welcome to the club :)
    Mickorod Renard: cool
    Mickorod Renard: I have had several experiences with vision,,which I told some close people about,,a year before they happened
    Fael Illyar: Yes, most of us likely have things we could say and if just anyone would read, they might think us mad :)
    Udge Watanabe: o.O
    Mickorod Renard: all totally useless stuff,,but it left me with a chilling feeling of what time is
    Fefonz Quan: "mad is teh only sane state to be"
    Fael Illyar: Hi Scath :)
    Mickorod Renard: thankyou,,I feel much more at home now
    Pema Pera: hi Schathach!
    Udge Watanabe smiles
    Mickorod Renard: hi scath
    Fefonz Quan: Hey Scath :)
    Udge Watanabe: hello scath
    Wester Kiranov: hi scat
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Pema, all:)
    Wester Kiranov: (I should be able to make my avatar read a book)
    Pema Pera: :)
    Fefonz Quan: you can read a paragraph to us in voice :)
    Fael Illyar: but that can't be logged too easily
    Fefonz Quan: (unless someone writes during)
    Wester Kiranov: if i can find my microphone, and a suitable paragraph
    Pema Pera: nono no voice here
    Mickorod Renard: hiya Ara
    Fefonz Quan: yes, the second one is a bitch :)
    Fael Illyar: Hi arabella :)
    Fefonz Quan: Hey Ara :)
    Pema Pera: we really want to keep the chat log self contained
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Ara
    arabella Ella: Hiya
    Pema Pera: HI Arabella
    Udge Watanabe: hello arabella
    Pema Pera: once we start talking, we will answer in voice too :-)
    Fefonz Quan: right, drop it
    Pema Pera: and lose the thread for the log
    Wester Kiranov: ok
    Wester Kiranov: It's weird, I can't find any clear examples
    Fefonz Quan: for what?
    Wester Kiranov: just like trying to find Mind
    Wester Kiranov: for counterintuitive things in TSK book
    Fefonz Quan: well, just open any page wester!
    Pema Pera: meanwhile, Mick, did you want to tell more about your experiences?
    Pema Pera: or was it mostly the one-year-beforehand that hit you?
    Fefonz Quan find TSK far from his limited intuition
    Mickorod Renard: well..not much more to say unless I bore u all to death,,but,,,,
    Fael Illyar: Please, go ahead :)
    Mickorod Renard: grin
    arabella Ella: may I ask what TSK means pls?
    Pema Pera: time space knowledge
    Mickorod Renard: they were extream dreams
    Pema Pera: the title of a book
    arabella Ella: ok ty
    Mickorod Renard: much diferent than usual
    Mickorod Renard: and I explained them in detail to several people
    Mickorod Renard: thanks
    Mickorod Renard: knowing from previous experience that they would no doubt ocur later
    Mickorod Renard: and voila
    Mickorod Renard: but its what they meant
    Fael Illyar: did they happen exactly the way as in the dream?
    Mickorod Renard: what they meant to me was that something is capable of showing the future,,and,,the future either has happened or
    Pema Pera: (Wester, I have the tsk text in digital form, so if you give me a page number and starting words, I can cut and paste)
    Mickorod Renard: well,,they were too spooky to explain in short
    Mickorod Renard: all time is now
    Fefonz Quan: "It seems, from the vantage point of lower space, that profound and infinite dimensions are located in lower time, but only in special points, such as the beginning of the world and the end of our quest"
    Fefonz Quan: a quote from a page in TSK i am reading now
    Mickorod Renard: can that be explained more fefonz?
    arabella Ella thinks it is an interesting concept
    Mickorod Renard: like profound dimension?
    Fefonz Quan: not by me, i thought we were looking for counter intuitiveness :)
    Fael Illyar: rather than counterintuitive, I find it mostly just unclear what it means :)
    Wester Kiranov: I've only reached page 65 so far
    Mickorod Renard: thats good for one day
    Pema Pera: This is from p. 80, what Fef quoted; part of:
    Pema Pera: It seems, from the vantage point of lower space, that profound and infinite dimensions are located in lower time, but only in special points, such as the beginning of the world or the end of our quest. Time spreads out before and after us, separating us from these points of paramount significance. But from a higher perspective, the structure and apparent passage of time have not cut us off from our infinite origin or postponed our possibility of fulfillment.
    Fefonz Quan: (that was 81, not far away :))
    Fefonz Quan: 80, wow pema you are fast
    Udge Watanabe: so he is suggesting that infinite time can touch our very-finite time at certain special points
    Wester Kiranov: Mostly, when I read it, I think at first "no that can't be true" and then I look at it again and I get a glimpse of how they could be true - but only a glimpse
    Mickorod Renard: and a special point would be? any example?
    arabella Ella: does it not require a special sort of sensitivity for that to happen?
    Udge Watanabe: well, his examples: the beginning of time. The Big Bang
    arabella Ella: like a sixth sense?
    Udge Watanabe: "the end of our quest" -- well, what? achieving nirvana?
    Fefonz Quan: i thought those special points look special from a low perspective
    Fael Illyar: what's the difference between end and beginning?
    Fefonz Quan: yes udge
    Fefonz Quan: but the claim is that they are not special in larger percpective
    Wester Kiranov: I thinkmaybe it will get clearer when I get a bit further in the exercises - still trying to visualize a passable Giant Body
    Pema Pera: yes, the claim is that our universe is not a wind-up toy that got started at the time of the big bang
    Pema Pera: rather every moment everything arises afresh, anew
    Pema Pera: from timeless time, in timeless time
    Udge Watanabe: if the end of a person's quest is attaining nirvana, then that is for the person of paramount importance, but for Being hardly worth noticing
    Fael Illyar: mickorod, but what I find an interesting question about those dreams that then happened is, if they happened because of the dream and not the other way around :)
    arabella Ella: but also was already there in another sense i reckon?
    Pema Pera: and we interpret it with our concepts and labels like past, present, future
    Fefonz Quan: an example from teh time wiki comes to my mind - is teh morning of the last day of our lifes differs from any other morning? is it special in a way?
    Pema Pera: no person has ever attained nirvana, Udge . . . :-)
    Mickorod Renard: no,,the events were completely nothing to do with me
    Mickorod Renard: Fael,,these were nonsense to me,,but profound,,yet happened
    Fefonz Quan: Mick, were does cases very unpredictable options to start with?
    Fefonz Quan: those*
    Mickorod Renard: lol,,didnt get that fefonz
    Pema Pera: what is pointed at by the word nirvana is something already here, and may become more visible -- but not to a person, and not as the result of an effort, not as something that can be attained (to Udge)
    Fael Illyar: I'd think it's pointless to discuss them unless we actually hear the dream and then what happen and what, if a differences there were between them :)
    arabella Ella: what i think Fefonz means is ... did the dreams present you with unpredictable elements?
    Fefonz Quan: thanks Ara :)
    Mickorod Renard: yes,,they were so obscure they shouldnt have been in my mind or memory
    Mickorod Renard: I will discuss the dreams in more depth later ,,or another time more appropriate..yes?
    arabella Ella: yes Mick
    Mickorod Renard: but back to the subject
    Fael Illyar: However you feel comfortable with :)
    Wester Kiranov: if later exists ;)
    Mickorod Renard: grin
    Mickorod Renard: the point for me is,,I have no doubt in my mind that time is wierd ,,and i have had it show as such to me
    Mickorod Renard: I just want to know
    Mickorod Renard: more
    arabella Ella: isn't time still a big mystery?
    Pema Pera: the way to knowing is to see, and the way to seeing is to explore, grope in the dark first
    arabella Ella: and time is experience by each one of us in different ways?
    Pema Pera: we can help each other to explore, and whatever we see, we can then held up to each other and share and compare, as best as we can
    arabella Ella: I can just vouch for what Micko is saying as he has discussed this with me before
    Pema Pera: how would you go about exploring, Mick?
    Pema Pera: Or Arabella, or others?
    arabella Ella: different ppl are capable of seeing different things
    Wester Kiranov: I know there is a very deep truth to the sentence "now is always", but usually I can't reach that with feeling or knowing
    arabella Ella: and some ppl have more sensitivity to seeing things than others
    arabella Ella: we do not all have the same type of sensitivity to seeing things arising or as appearahces or what
    Mickorod Renard: I am..if I am outright about it,,frustrated at seeing the glimpse,,and not finding people ..like us,,to talk with
    Mickorod Renard: this group,,and kira,,is the best way to explore
    Mickorod Renard: I think we are drawn together
    Pema Pera: glad to hear that, Mick, I feel the same
    Udge Watanabe nods
    Wester Kiranov: yes
    Pema Pera: Arabella, what we are talking about is not esoteric, anyone has the ability to see; the problem is to find the patience and attention to stop and drop . . . nothing is needed in terms of special abilities
    Mickorod Renard: I have been affraid to talk to most people about the things we chat about here all the time,,
    Pema Pera: :)
    Fefonz Quan: welcome to the club II MIck :)
    Mickorod Renard: ty
    arabella Ella: i dont think i was thinking of anything esoteric or special abilities
    arabella Ella: just experience and seeing
    arabella Ella: and arising
    Pema Pera: Yes, Wester, so that can be a type of "koan", what you wrote, a sentence or idea to keep in mind and work with -- would that makes sense? (refering to: [13:38] Wester Kiranov: I know there is a very deep truth to the sentence "now is always", but usually I can't reach that with feeling or knowing)
    arabella Ella: in timelessless
    Pema Pera: yes, Arabella
    Wester Kiranov: I never thought of it as a koan, but that's interesting
    Mickorod Renard: be careful with that word ara
    Pema Pera: and in one way different people have different abilities, but in another way, it is already staring in the face of everybody . . . .
    Mickorod Renard: must look up koan now
    Wester Kiranov: it's more like a benchmark to me - when I see the truth of that one clearer I am going in the right direction
    Fael Illyar: yes, a lot of things that, once you get, you're like 'Why didn't I get that before?'
    Pema Pera: I find it extremely helpful to keep a single sentence in mind, and mull it over, keep it in mind, for hours or days, until it speaks to me -- it is possible to invite a kind of wisdom that way
    Fefonz Quan: A riddle or question in Zen Mick, that's meant not to be answered directly, but to shake your boat sort of saying
    Pema Pera: yes, Fael, very much so
    Mickorod Renard: wow,,thanks fefonz
    Fefonz Quan: (or to drop the floor below your feet?)
    Pema Pera: or you could say, it has to be answered, but outside of our usual logic
    Wester Kiranov: I have had that one in mind for twenty years or so, together with "here is everywhere"
    Pema Pera: yes!
    Fefonz Quan: and then - you need to start swimming...
    Mickorod Renard: I get those sometimes,,and i wander about for hours in a dream of realisation,,then after a week it sort of goes away
    Mickorod Renard: i dont forget them,,but the special..dreaminess goes away
    Fefonz Quan: maybe you can combine them together Wester: here-now is always-everything
    Mickorod Renard: I had one once,,i saw a set of stairs,,on the top was an old guy, on each step was my life
    Wester Kiranov: and there is a third one : it's m=everyone. I was wondering if there is a connection with Knowledge in TSK
    Mickorod Renard: still not sure if the old guy was me before death,,or god
    Wester Kiranov: *me
    Fael Illyar: Mick, what's the difference? :)
    Mickorod Renard: yes,,I have wondered that too
    Mickorod Renard: but I will become wise of the future when I am at the end of my life
    Fefonz Quan: why not now?
    Mickorod Renard: would love to,,or not mmm
    Pema Pera: a wise innocence perhaps :) ?
    Mickorod Renard: yea
    Mickorod Renard: so are we talking about trancending the barriers of time?
    Pema Pera: so yes Wester, time space knowledge: here is everywhere, now is everywhen, me is everybody -- but that can be very misleading when said so succinctly; alternative and more precise formulation: no duration, no separation, no self
    Wester Kiranov: wow
    Mickorod Renard: ok,,what passes in time gives us our identity?
    arabella Ella: but Pema that is using a negative way with using 'no' to describe what you say?
    Pema Pera: no separation: all that you see is given together already; no duration: timeless time; no self: it's not your experience, just all sheer appearance
    Wester Kiranov: that does not matter, but i will have to meditate on whether they actually mean the same thing
    Wester Kiranov: (what arabella said)
    Pema Pera: we can only use negatives when talking in words, since words are the shadows of what we are pointing at, Arabella
    arabella Ella: yes very wise
    Pema Pera: Mick, yes, we *seem* to have an identity and time *seems* to move . . . it's all part of the play, and we can play along without buying into it as really real
    Pema Pera: it is all part of the realm of the fictional -- not the superfactual
    Pema Pera: the relative -- not the absolute
    Wester Kiranov: i also like that it shows one case of how all opposites collapse into another
    Mickorod Renard: yes..i see that a bit
    Pema Pera: yes, opposites *seem* to arise out of Being
    Pema Pera: but only seem
    arabella Ella: lovely to reflect on such 'dissolving' of dichotomies ... fantastic
    Pema Pera: :)
    Fefonz Quan: i read about a neuro scientist that had a stroke, thus shuting down the right part of her brain
    Fael Illyar: I watched her presentation on a video.
    Pema Pera: we can help each other taste all this . . . letting it all melt on our tongues, Arabella :)
    Mickorod Renard: I know this sounds stupid,,but our past is like a vapour trail behind a jet plane?
    Pema Pera: a tasting party
    Fefonz Quan: she said she saw everythingwithout seperation, the molecules of her hand and the wall mering
    Fefonz Quan: merging*
    arabella Ella: how beautiful!
    Fefonz Quan: (i may switch right and left)
    arabella Ella: ??
    Pema Pera: (shutting down the left part of her brain :)
    arabella Ella: cool
    Pema Pera: (the part acting on the right half)
    Mickorod Renard: cool
    Pema Pera: (the more logical part)
    Fefonz Quan: yes, opinting it out in case you want to try it at home ;-)
    arabella Ella: yes
    Fefonz Quan: pointing*
    Wester Kiranov: fefonz: do you have link to that video? I'm not sure if it's beautiful or awful until I see how she reacts to it
    arabella Ella: what an xcellent idea Fefonz
    Mickorod Renard: yea,,was wonderin that too
    Mickorod Renard: I spoke to Ara about some experiences I had had that were so profound I could not use words to explain them
    Wester Kiranov: This does remind me of some Oliver Sacks stories, especially the one about the person they thought was close to enlightenment - and then they found out it was a brain tumor
    Fefonz Quan: i'll try to look it up
    Mickorod Renard: its refreshing to hear that this is normal,,in this circle
    arabella Ella: yea
    Pema Pera hates to leave in the middle of these stories, but has an appointment right now at the hour . . . :(
    Wester Kiranov: bye pema
    Pema Pera: see ya!
    Mickorod Renard: bye Pema
    Udge Watanabe: bye pema, take care
    Scathach Rhiadra: bye Pema
    arabella Ella: thanks Pema bye for now
    Fael Illyar: See you later PEma :)
    Fefonz Quan: http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/j...f_insight.html
    Fefonz Quan: got it :)
    Mickorod Renard: webster,,are you trying to scare us?
    arabella Ella: brilliant i love the ted videos
    Wester Kiranov: ah - a TED talk
    Fael Illyar: http://www.news.com.au/perthnow/stor...005375,00.html
    Fael Illyar: so, everyone, which way is the dancer moving? :)
    arabella Ella: or should we distinguish between the dancer and the dance? I dont think so ...
    Wester Kiranov: no, i'm not trying to scare anyone. but it is easy to get confused on this path
    Mickorod Renard: true
    Fefonz Quan: yet in a way wester - it can be both, tumor+enlightenment...
    arabella Ella: but that is why this helps us to open our minds and perception Wester and Mick ... the more we open up the more we see
    Mickorod Renard: ok,,clockwise 4 me
    Udge Watanabe: I can make her go either way, but her natural motion is backwards.
    arabella Ella: cool Udge
    Udge Watanabe: clockwise looking down on her, yes
    Mickorod Renard: yes,,i have reversed it before
    Fael Illyar: for me, for the moment it's counterclockwise but I've had her go clockwise too sometimes :)
    arabella Ella: like the dancer in the optical illusion which shows you whether you are right or left brained
    arabella Ella: cool
    Fefonz Quan: counterclockwise for me
    Mickorod Renard: I am right handed..if that helps
    Wester Kiranov: oh- that one
    arabella Ella: yes ... so you use your brain to get her to move in another direction which is so cool
    Fefonz Quan: ok, i reversed her :)
    Fael Illyar: ok... I started reading th text and she reversed :P
    Fefonz Quan: would it be different if she was dressed? ;-)
    arabella Ella: depends on your own personal gender i guess fefonz
    arabella Ella: so what about her gender then?
    Fefonz Quan: the opposite to mind i guess
    Udge Watanabe: I think as long as she were in silhouette like this, clothes wouldn't matter
    Fefonz Quan: (or can i reverse that too? )
    Mickorod Renard: hey,,I havnt seen her undressed yet,,boo hoo
    Fefonz Quan: she switches directions all teh time now
    arabella Ella: yeaaaa
    Fael Illyar: oh, that killed the conversation.
    Udge Watanabe: :)
    arabella Ella: perhaps it triggered our reflection
    Fefonz Quan: well, you brought up undressed women, what would you expect Fael :)
    Fefonz Quan: i re-recommend the lecture i gave, it is inspiring and i think relevant to what we are speaking of herer
    Fael Illyar: unfortunately, I haven't come across something like this that didn't include a silhouette of an undressed woman. :)
    Fael Illyar: anyhow, it's a nice toy :)
    Mickorod Renard: yes
    arabella Ella: i must go now bye everyone
    Mickorod Renard: bye Ara
    Scathach Rhiadra: bye Ara
    Wester Kiranov: bye ara
    Udge Watanabe: bye ara, take care
    Fefonz Quan: Bye Ara :)
    Mickorod Renard: well,,that was fun,,even though I didnt get a clear grasp of time
    Udge Watanabe grins
    Udge Watanabe: thatÄs like getting a firm grip on half-set jello
    Udge Watanabe: IMHO
    Fefonz Quan: maybe the issue is letting the grip go...
    Mickorod Renard: yea,,the more you go through life the more mysteries it throws up
    Fael Illyar: it's kind of like when the only way to have any control is to let go of trying to control :)
    Mickorod Renard: ok folks,,I must go,,thanks tons
    Udge Watanabe: yes, and I.
    Fael Illyar: See you later Mickorod :)
    Udge Watanabe: goodniht all, thank you everyone
    Fefonz Quan: bye mick
    Scathach Rhiadra: bye Mick, Udge
    Wester Kiranov: bye micko, udge
    Fael Illyar: See you later Udge :
    Fefonz Quan: bye udge
    Udge Watanabe: goodnight!
    Mickorod Renard: yes,,I realised that 3 years ago,,it was very iluminatining
    Mickorod Renard: goodnight all
    Fael Illyar: Oh, interesting, I followed a link from another article I found that from and it's detailing an operation where half the brain is removed.
    Fael Illyar: and says that it has hardly any effect on personality or memory
    Fefonz Quan: wester, in the talk she describes very vividly the feeling of "giant body" expanding in space
    Fefonz Quan: very similar to the beginning of TSK i would say
    Wester Kiranov: that does sound interesting
    Scathach Rhiadra must get the TSK book
    Fefonz Quan: yes :) though i find it tough to read and frustrating sometimes
    Fefonz Quan: well, you know who wrote it ;-)
    Scathach Rhiadra: yes:)
    Fael Illyar smiles.
    Wester Kiranov: :)
    Fefonz Quan: i started reading it in December, and got only to page 80
    Fefonz Quan: (and i have a LOT of free time, more than you imagine)
    Scathach Rhiadra: :)
    Fael Illyar smiles.
    Scathach Rhiadra: well. I must go, see you all again soon, namasté
    Fael Illyar: Well, I'd better take my leave as well. See you late Everyone :)
    Fefonz Quan should contemplate the concept of wasting time to in the workshop. me definitely an expert in that one :)
    Fael Illyar: *later
    Fefonz Quan: Bye Sacath:)
    Wester Kiranov: I only had mine for a couple of weeks
    Wester Kiranov: trying to look up when exactly but my browser won't cooperate
    Wester Kiranov: bye
    Fefonz Quan: it's nice to have someone else reading TSK :)
    Wester Kiranov: i think this is the proper place to find them :)
    Fefonz Quan: it is worth discussing on many levels.
    Fefonz Quan: yep :)
    Fefonz Quan: think i will go RL now,
    Fefonz Quan: good night
    Wester Kiranov: so will I - still have to do the washing up
    Wester Kiranov: bye for now
    Fefonz Quan: namaste :)
    Wester Kiranov: namaste
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