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12:31 AM
@Mithrandir24601 This is also my lowest-stress site to mod. Y'all are great. :-)
7 hours later…
7:41 AM
@TheMattbat999 sort of similar, presumably. I've spent a lot of time thinking about how my peoples started off, developed, customs, etc... am still spending plenty time thinking and considering how architecture would in some cases be shaped/characterized by these customs, heritage, etc.
1 hour later…
9:11 AM
@dot_Sp0T Would the area not be about 3 sq miles if the radius is 1 mile?
@Bellerophon it would, if it were only the insides of the wall. But there's also surroundings and what-not; I want it be organically grown to some point, then BAMM big infrastructure project, then grown around infrastructure, etc.
I might have to start a question series about it
9:47 AM
@dot_Sp0T what age/technology?
also, do you expect it to be perfectly circular, or based on topography?
don't know if it's what you whant but one of the biggest celt walls was 2500m long
The Celtic hill fort of Otzenhausen is one of the biggest fortifications the Celts ever constructed. It was built by Gauls of the Treveri tribe, who lived in the region north of the fort. The fort is located on top of the Dollberg, a hill near Otzenhausen in Germany, about 695 m above sea level. The only visible remains are two circular earth ramparts, covered with stones. == History == In times of war, the circular rampart was a strong fortification against enemies. Theories suggest this one might have been more than just a refuge. There might have been a permanent settlement, a village or the...
1 hour later…
11:06 AM
A: Sandbox for Proposed Questions

AshHow old can you get without aging? My ongoing science fiction project has FTL travel that is instantaneous for the ships and their crews but still, usually, takes years of real-time in the rest of the universe. This is going to have an effect on crews, they are going to lose every contact they m...

11:46 AM
@Kepotx check out Xi'an the walled city
diferent culture, wall, technology, but yes, it's impressive
12:06 PM
A: Sandbox for Proposed Questions

ArtificialSoulQuestion Everything transmits, reflects and absorbs light to some extent. Humans, rocks, the atmosphere, etc.. Everything interacts with any particular wavelength differently. If you look at a person in sunlight, they cast a shadow as well as reflect certain wavelength back to you while others ...

@Kepotx the eventual map will be set somewhere around the equiv of our 1800-1900 ;; the time the wall is built will be somewhere at least 30-80 years before that;; the time I start with the map is probably somewhere late medieval (so 1650 - 1750) equiv
aka progressing the map from a start situation, over a few events to an end situation
At that age I expect more Vauban style walls than circular ones
at least if you have gunpowder
12:46 PM
Q: Should certain tags automatically require answers to use SI Units rather than other, more traditional, systems of measurement?

AshSI Units form the official language of international science. As such I want to discuss whether questions that are tagged for either science-based or hard-science should automatically warrant the use of only metric SI Units. I ask in relation to several answers to Quick solutions to a modern war...

1:07 PM
A: Sandbox for Proposed Questions

AshDesigning an advanced deadman's switch for the "vitality impaired". I don't usually use vampires as main characters, they're normally supporting characters for more and less human immortals, but I've decided to flesh them out a bit. I was thinking about advanced, hands free dead man's switches f...

1:26 PM
Found this handy chart
I like how all those classifications are all pop-geeks.
Whereas the real ones--you don't even know who they are, until they don't open their mouths :P
(Or until they do, for some.)
2:09 PM
A: Sandbox for Proposed Questions

JohnWDaileyExtinction Equilibrium extinction natural-disasters reality-check hard-science science-based In Earth's past, one side had always suffered more species loss than the other. The Permian extinction event, for example, saw the death of 70% of the world's terrestrial species and 96% of the world's ...

@Kepotx the wall serves double duty to transport water transportation system; it's getting a 8m wide and 4m deep river at the top which is going to feed aqueducts into the city and outskirts
because cool
so, aqueduc used for defense?
that's really cool in peace time, but not sure if it's clever on war time
a breach in the wall being both a hole in the defense and an irrigation problem
you're probably not going to irrigate much anyway if the attackers are at the wall
but yeah, the main reason for the wall being built is still not in stone yet; aside from it being a prestige project I guess
I also wanted to make it somewhere around 20m tall (60ft I think?) which needs reasoning as well
as I said, circular walls are not good ones for defense against gunpowder
but it could be a limit of your city, like you close the gate at night
so there is a clear distinction between citizens and other people
or a taw when you go trough the gate
walls are not always and only related to war
@Kepotx Orthanc seemed to survive OK.
Much better than Barad-dur (or whatever Sauron's tower was called).
2:22 PM
by gunpowder i mean canon, artillery and stuff
there is reason why fortification of this stime where star shaped
@Kepotx Canon?
I thought the priests were mostly there for dying confessions.
sorry, french word ^^
a gun
Two N's :)
to use against wall, shoting bullets
Cannon :)
2:24 PM
(i hate how in english, gun can mean lot of things)
ok, thanks
Well, I thought the star shape was more to provide death traps in assaults than defense against cannon?
Either way, the ball should deflect/damage about the same, depending on which angle the ball hit at.
it has several reason, death traps, no blind spot, neighboor bastion can help you...
Yeah, but those reasons aren't really related to cannons?
They just become slightly more important as the attacker's firepower becomes better.
@Kepotx ah tolls are definitely gonna be a big thing; with the area of the city tolls could even incentivize people moving into the city for work, etc. brining more wealth, SWEET IDEA keep it in your head for a soon to come question
@Kepotx could still add triangles to the outside of the wall
@Hosch250 don't know if there is an equivalent in english, but french have two separate words for "medieval walls" and "anti gun walls"
as medieval walls were just stone walls (or wood, or other stuff)
while gunpowder era walls are much lower, and have a layer of stone, and earth behind it
2:35 PM
the italian/star-shaped came after, and Vauban improve the system (both defending and attacking)
btw just use french words in brackets if you're not sure about the english; i do the same with german
But yeah, I was originally fancying walls with rooms in them for storage at the bottom, and chambers for guards, etc. guess I won't have that if I want them to withstand artillery
so I'll need earthwalls
well, its "mur/murailles" for medieval, tall and full-stone walls, and "remparts" for walls with earth behind it, to absord cannonball force
Yeah, most stone isn't good at dealing with cannonballs.
@dot_Sp0T also, outside walls, there are lot of stuff for defense
a "glacis", wich is a slow-angle thing
so defender can see attackers and shoot at them, but it's more difficult for attackers
2:39 PM
@Kepotx rampart
and a tranchee between the "glacis" and walls
also, Vauban move the "bastion" from the walls to the tranchee, so lost bastion wouldn't mean lost city
the assiegers also dig tranchees, in zig zag, to avoid direct hit
and with several circular tranches, one to defend from threats from inside the city, one to defend from troops outtside the city
hmm, tha base structure I imagined is a 'wall' with a radius of 1 mile (~1.6km) that goes around the city area for a huge stretch; that wall would have an artificial river on top serving as a water-supply capable of supplying much more people than the few streams in the area, basically damming up a short stretch of river and waterfall coming from the mountains and instead leading the water along a wider area
@dot_Sp0T No.
@Hosch250 sorry what?
You just gave the attackers a free way to get to the top of the wall.
Wherever the water enters the city is a weak point.
You definitely don't want them on top of the wall.
2:42 PM
@Hosch250 yeah sure, but we still need the water
as i said before, not sure if merging water supply and defense is a good thing, as you need both
If it were me, I'd run it through a series of grates/portculli through a known place in the wall with additional defenses.
you don't want to choose between allowing ennemy to enter the city by following the river, or cutting the river
@Kepotx well it looks super cool, which is the main factor - the other factors are then created around it to make it work as a defensive structure;; creative process and such
whelp, the city is at a mountainside
and water comes down from the mountain
Also, if the river can get to the top of the wall in an reasonable amount, that means the wall is built against a hill.
2:45 PM
that bad as well?
Can't I have anything nice? :(
Which then means the attacker can climb the mountain and have not only the upper range, but they can by-pass the wall.
The number 1 rule of war is the attacker WILL do that.
you should place your city in the center of the country and not in the border, border city tend to be more defense-oriented
You know, my dad tells a story about his army experience when they took him to a fortress in (I think) Italy.
@Hosch250 but that will only be a viable tactic if they can get enough troops through that way, don't it?
@dot_Sp0T No.
It doesn't take many troops to win a war. Just the right circumstances.
2:47 PM
how many is not many
Said fortress was built against an "unclimb-able" cliff.
@dot_Sp0T 1
Although, that 1 will probably be a politician :P
politics is out of scope
So, the Germans had their guns all pointed down the path they expected the allies to come up.
but yeah, guess it'll become mainly a city wall as a means to control trade then
thing is, your needs (20 meter wall, river...) means poor defense
2:48 PM
Our commandos climbed the cliff, and they never knew what hit them.
Who is our? Are you in the military?
The US commandos.
I'm not.
I think you should wipe out defence from the table, and find another usage of the walls, like tolls
so it's not you ^^
thought you might be
Our, as in my country.
Anyway, if you want rule-of-cool, sure. Maybe someone built it just to show off.
2:49 PM
Well I will still use the wall for defense purposes to some extent, but probably more along the line of mounting anti-air
Just don't rely on it being great for defense.
but about defendability? if I have the side where the river moves onto the wall, guarded by a fort - shouldn't that help again?
Heck, maybe it was built for trade.
That river on the wall would be great for water transportation.
@dot_Sp0T Some.
also, 20 meter is quite high, it would also need to be thick to defend against cannonball
Basically, you don't want to allow someone to shoot down on you. It gives the attacker a LOT of range where you can't fight back.
2:52 PM
don't know the exact heigh, but it wasn't as tall as that
@Kepotx yeah, I did not think about cannons really, but if it'll gonna serve as a fortress-sort-of-wall it will have to get ramparts, etc
and big heaps of dirt on the outside
it have to be constructed in 1650-1750?
There's a reason the castle was often built on a crag only easily accessible from one side.
basically a stone ring, surrounded by another sort-of-like-a-star ring around
@Kepotx that's about the societal/technological equivalent to this world
On the highest point in shooting distance.
2:53 PM
@dot_Sp0T but if the river go trough the ring wall, it also go through the star
@Kepotx but I could do similar to this, from top:
On the other side, you'd have to scale a sharp cliff (doable, and has been done many times, but hard unless you are willing to take them on with no hope of relief and only what you can carry on your belt).
   C I T Y
 R I V E R
--\    /--
@Hosch250 castles, but not city. this seems more a city that need fortifications than a castle that became a city
2:55 PM
@Hosch250 This is the most famous example I know of.
Although the british managed to haul cannons up!
sort of like that
So, if I were you, I'd put the castle on the top of the mountains near the source of the river.
the chat is terrible for this
Put the city below, and have the wall basically be for regulating trade.
It can double as a first-line-of-defense while the city evacuates by the militia, but has no planned use for that.
not sure if a mountain city is the best location for trade though
2:57 PM
When you talk about castle, do you talk about 'king'?
@Kepotx If it's on the pass, it could be great.
@dot_Sp0T No, just a military strongpoint.
The main line of defense.
Also if you give me a few minutes I can give a brief break-down of how the city comes to be, maybe that helps?
ALSO: Thank you so very much for discussing these subjects with me very helpful!!
well, it's a pleasure for us to to discuss of such things
The city could keep control of bandits in the area, apply a tax on goods going through the pass, etc.
let me see if I can find a drawing
2:58 PM
it's always interesting to solve problemes when everyone have tiferent knowledge/point of view
@Gryphon Yeah, the Americans did the same in the Mexican war.
They did it twice, actually.
First time, they tried to ambush the Mexicans, but they figured it out the last second and took off without a fight.
the tax/tolls when you travel a gate/bridge was quite common in medieval, don't know if it still was during your time period, but it could shift your city
The second time, they dragged a cannon up a church tower.
@Hosch250 Admittedly, the French commander was an absolute idiot.
What they'd do is take the cannons apart.
3:00 PM
Yeah. Runner comes in going: "The british are climbing the cliff!" The commander decides the guy's insane, and goes back to bed.
I need a tool to reduce image size
@dot_Sp0T MS Paint.
Then the commander leaves his fortified city, rather than waiting for the reinforcements he knows are coming.
@Hosch250 If you need freehand red circles, it's useful for that, too.
@Kepotx ah I can easily have tolls, will defintely do this, that fits the city history anyways
@dot_Sp0T also, when you psot images on imgur or other hosting website, you can change thing in url to change size$
like www.example.com/imageId/l for large, imageId/m for medium, imageId/s for small..
3:11 PM
FWIW, the romans once took advantage of a storm to scale a cliff and beat up some Jewish defenders. The Jewish guys couldn't fight back because the storm was strong enough that they couldn't get close to the edge.
FWIW, the Romans are my least favorite people in history after the Canaanites (those guys were just horrible, with their Molech and all).
here we go
@Hosch250 Romans were simultaneously terrible people and absolutely fantastic problem-solvers and engineers.
yuck that toooooook some time
also the water areas are going to be drastically reduced
@Gryphon I do grant them that.
But then, the middle eastern peoples were just as good, really.
So: Water enters at the right, and leaves somewhen at the left into the lake again
3:14 PM
Look at the descriptions of ancient Babylon, Media/Persia, Greece, etc.
@Hosch250 Hmm. They were undoubtedly good, but I still can't say they matched the Romans. Ancient Rome was pretty much the king of engineering until the late middle ages (at the earliest).
I think they did. They just got sacked several times over.
The hanging gardens, etc...
I was imagining 2 forts on the wall, one on the right in the area where the water comes from, one on the far left end where the wall meets the mountain again
@dot_Sp0T OK, I'll just invade between the two forts :)
@Hosch250 between is a 20m tall wall
3:17 PM
@dot_Sp0T No, from the mountain side.
I'll just lob my stones over the wall.
@Hosch250 Rome also got sacked several times over. However, a lot of their stuff is still standing (several thousand years later), which is a real testament to the quality of the engineering and the architecture.
Ah sure, alas I was thinking that the terrain would be adverse to that sort of behaviour, but yeah
@Gryphon Most of what's left wasn't directly in the sacks.
A few bridges?
But yeah iff mountains/cliffs are not that useful, I guess bad luck htere
The rest is pretty much only half there.
And if we didn't take such efforts to preserve it, it wouldn't be.
3:19 PM
@Hosch250 Yeah, but I don't even see half of the hanging gardens.
@Gryphon Yeah, it's like twice as old, or something, and they probably salvaged all the dressed stone they could next time they built in the area.
What's the use of half the Colosseum hanging around when you need to build the king's palace or get your head cut off?
Let's just reuse the stone, no?
Fair point. However, the fact that several of their roads are still around and usable is pretty sweet. I mean, how many of our roads would last for 2,000 years with minimal repair work?
Lots of them, if they only got as much traffic as those ones.
Nowadays, we put more, and heavier, traffic on our roads every day than they had in a year (no citation here).
@Hosch250 I admit your point about traffic. However, looking at how often cracks in the roads around my house have to be repaired (every 10 years at the most), even without vehicular traffic, weathering alone would do rather a number on them.
Yes, it would.
And I imagine the Roman roads had periodic fixes too, when they got too bad to travel on.
3:26 PM
@Hosch250 By who, from 300 AD to maybe 1000 AD? There weren't a lot of people around with an interest in fixing roads.
Anybody living in the area? Depends which area you are in.
Rome wasn't ever completely deserted.
And if there are non-nomadic people, there is trade and (some) infrastructure.
And even if they can't build it anymore, they can maintain it.
@Gryphon Actually there were a lot of people interested in the roads, just very few people writing history down. The Dark Ages didn't see a major population crash just a major organised government vacuum.
A brief history (in case anyone cares still^^): The city started off as a mining town, pulling mainly coal from the mountains, maybe another big vein of iron or copper as well). There's a monastery at the far right and a village to it, some farming, and lots of woods; swamp-plains along the lake where the river from the mountains feed into the lake.

The mining town quickly gains traction and expands as the mountians are rich in bounty, a small industry grows around the mining and a viallge/small town comes to be around it as well, housing workers, providing, smelting and metal processing i
Whoever the local feudal lord was probably sent his subjects out to repair the roads periodically.
@Ash However, without organised government, people don't tend to do public works (like maintaining roads).
3:30 PM
Just like the local towns in the early US. You didn't pay a tax for using the road--you paid the tax by fixing them every year (or both).
That was in force in at least some towns through the early 1900s at least.
@Gryphon They do maintain the roads that are a matter of local necessity, if only by using them, one of the advantages of roman roads was that traffic reinforced them without other maintenance.
@Ash Which brings me back to the argument that the roads only lasted so long because the Romans were ridiculously good engineers.
And it's not hard to replace a section of pavers. I imagine their roads weren't too different.
@Gryphon It certainly didn't hurt that they knew what they were doing.
Like I said, send a group of slaves out to keep them busy.
The problem with maintaining modern roads is you have to replace large sections. You can't just replace a few feet of cracked stone blocks.
When a tar/cement road cracks, you can't just replace the cracked piece because it is all one piece.
3:34 PM
@Hosch250 Which we can do. However, if modern civilization happened to fall apart (like Roman society did), how long would our roads last?
@Gryphon If I had to make a rough guess, I'd say we could still use them for a few hundred years with no maintenance at all.
After that, we'd be able to tell where they were for a few thousand.
@Hosch250 On the other hand, I'm betting people were still using Roman roads with no maintenance but walking on them by 1000 AD. And not having much of a problem with it (other than the occasional cracked cobblestone).
@Gryphon If people are walking on them, they'll keep the vegetation worn/cut back.
If that happens, I'd easily guess they'd survive 700 years.
@Gryphon Depends where they are, in temperate climates, like most of Europe even Roman roads don't last hugely long without traffic and/or work. Our roads would be the same, where there's good rainfall and plant growth they'll be trashed in a few years, even less on floodplains.
Especially in the southern states.
In the northern states, they have to replace large sections every year because a few years of snow/ice will tear it apart.
If they were cobblestone, they would get horribly uneven and spread out and cracked.
3:38 PM
So in other words, our roads are about as good at lasting as Roman ones. Except the Romans did it entirely with human labour.
Cement might actually last longer because it has to get major cracks before it can start spreading out.
Pretty much.
And, personally, I wouldn't object to being on a road crew today, but I would to being on a Roman road crew.
And the Romans had one advantage in that their roads were more easily maintained.
So any person could smooth the dirt and put the cobblestones back, or replace one, with no skill.
We basically traded ease of maintenance for ease of installation.
@Hosch250 Only if it doesn't have any rebar, rebar will rust and break up the concrete around it.
@Ash True.
@Kepotx @Hosch250 any thoughts? Or did I miss my chance?
@dot_Sp0T Not too sure how to read that map, but it looks good from what I see.
You don't happen to have a satellite image or a topo map, do you? ;P
3:46 PM
Well, there's a huge ciruclar wall, and a mountain along the top side of the map, and the dark blue stuff is topo mostly
And the circles inside the big circles are road spaces, I got them on the same layer as the wall sadly, so couldn't blend them out
The wall is the part I can't see, really.
Is that the yellow with the little spikes?
And at top is a bunch of buildings sort of for scale
no the wall is the big light blue fat circle
Ohhh, around the very perimeter.
I thought that was just more of the globe.
yeah, the yellow stuff is notes for me where the rock gets quarried away
So, what's the diameter of the city?
3:48 PM
nah sry, all top down with a roadnetwork I couldn't disable on the export
Hmm, why don't you have the source of the river inside the city?
nothings really much to scale right now as it's all sketches about what to put where
Guaranteed fresh water, can't be poisoned by an attacker.
Because i really liked the idea of a circular wall/aqueduct
And you can engineer where it flows out to make it hard to enter.
Heck you could have it flow around the wall leading from a point inside the city via a sort of side-wall, then flow over the wall in a waterfall.
3:50 PM
also I can't really, geologically have the source inside, as a river needs to gather water
The current draft has a small valley-ish area in the mountains which gets dammed up to provide a steady watersource
I guess one idea was having the water server double duty between fresh-water as well as allowing to build industries that need lots of water along the wall (also mills, etc.)
so might just as well have different fresh-water sources inside the city, such as abusing th water table
which shouldn't be that far down as a lake is nearby
(The current water bodies are way too large for my liking and will be reduced in size
It's looking fun.
Around the time that the wall is being built / in construction I was planning of having the bottom 2-fifths of future city area being agriculture/forestry still
It's gonna be fun, but I need to spend more time researching civil engineering stuff I guess
E.g. finding out how much stone I need for the wall, but that I can make a question I guess
4:07 PM
Assuming a wall with a diameter of 2 miles, a width of 20 feet, and a height of 66 feet (20 meters), you need 87 499 638 ft^3 of stone.
The top may not need to be 20 feet thick, but the bottom might need to be thicker, so...
Hola peoples and etcetera.
@James Hi, Jabberwocky!
@James I suppose I'm included in the etcetera?
@Gryphon Mythological creatures would fall under etcetera, yes.
Looking at that "Mind blown" star, I thought of a new pun.
A guy sneezes and his brain comes flying out from his nose. He looks at it and says (wait for it...) "Mind blown."
4:18 PM
@Hosch250 The good lord help us all and spare us from ever hearing a pun as bad as this again.
(I may or may not have started typing that before actually seeing the pun. I have experience chatting with you).
Yay, that one got a lol with all caps!
@Hosch250 The ability to tolerate bad puns is a pre-requisite for hanging out here.
4:21 PM
@Gryphon If you don't like puns you may be in the wrong place.
Though its been less common since @DaaaaWhooosh retired.
@James DaaaaWhooosh. That name sounds familiar.
He was a chat regular for quite a while.
Hasn't been around in a year or so, which is too bad, he was entertaining.
Yeah, I think I saw his answers sporadically in HNQ.
@James I think I saw him in here a couple months ago, but not for very long.
@James It's even in the room tags. No one can say they weren't warned.
4:33 PM
@AndyD273 But then again it also says "reasoned discussion" :D
It takes much reason to make a good (i.e. bad) pun.
@Secespitus The is a lie.
Wasnt there an andoird app for stackexchange chat?
@James it's a lie, it's a lie, it's a lie lie lie
4:43 PM
Another response to my pun:
in VBA Rubberducking, 1 min ago, by Mathieu Guindon
that's ...bordering criminal level of daddiness
4:54 PM
I guess your pun killed it
@Secespitus I think it takes a lot of reasoning to design a cannibal spoon launcher
'it' being the chat
@AndyD273 "insanity" is the word you are looking for ;)
The definition of insanity is rooted in
@dot_Sp0T Like coming into chat and expecting to get anything useful done?
5:12 PM
@Secespitus I like good puns. As opposed to that pun.
@Gryphon Those are rare.
@Secespitus They are. Very.
Also, the line on sparing us was a joke.
There was a shady young lady
Who, unwed, had a young baby
She went to the confessional
To visit the professional
Who said "Go buy a rosary."
@Hosch250 At least how I pronounce it, rosary rhymes with neither lady nor baby.
5:24 PM
@Hosch250 Bermashave
@Hosch250 Never mind, I take it back.
It still sound wrong when I say it, but I'm now not sure why.
@Gryphon No you were right, it doesn't rhyme.
@AndyD273 The important part is the "ee" sound :P
But yeah, for best effect, they'd all have the same sound before the "ee" too, like all "bee".
Anyway, I thought of the rhyme between "confessional" and "professional", and had to think of a limerick.
Also, anyone going to confession with a mortal sin on their conscience is unlikely to get "buy a rosary" as advice. At least not exclusively, and not high on the list of importance, either.
5:30 PM
I am NOT adding to the chatroom.
@Gryphon This one doesn't care about that. He just wants the money.
Pretty please?
@James I meant to point that last one here.
@Hosch250 That's a rather profit oriented priest. Which is actually fairly rare, because priests don't exactly make a lot of money. Most of them are more prophet oriented.
@Gryphon Back in Martin Luther's day, much of the church were just politicians.
@Hosch250 Depends on what your metric is. By population, the large majority of the clergy were village priests, who I would certainly not count as politicians. Of course, the most famous and wealthy clergy were essentially politicians.
What about Haiku?
Shorter than a Limmerick
but still quite poetic.
5:41 PM
@Secespitus Umm, not longer than a Limmerick. They're shorter.
@Hosch250 Nope, no, nein, nyet, nee, jo, yox, ez, na, nann, m hai, Nej, o'hi, tidak, hapana
@Secespitus That's better.
@James VTC: Unclear what you are saying.
@Gryphon There were also groups of monasteries that basically lived high on the hog off the village.
There were other groups that practically starved themselves to death and did their best to serve the village.
5:52 PM
@Secespitus See:
10 mins ago, by James
@James Can you rephrase that? Currently it's a bit unclear to me.
11 mins ago, by James
man...I just need to save that permalink for regular usage :D
That's a great clarification! :D
...why did I capitalize Nej?
5:57 PM
@James Copy/paste from your translator of choice?
Is it a German noun?
they were all just short enough that I typed them...
Thinking about GDPR.
I wonder. Does that mean that in the EU, people can make employers "forget" they employed them?
Honestly I just googled "no in other languages" and looked back and forth. After nyet I couldn't tell you which was which.
