Speaker 1 (00:10): [Music] Frank (00:12): I'm having a debate, James. I can't, yeah. Debate. I can't decide whether I should spend a few days fixing the windows version of ice circuit a few days fixing the Android version of I circuit or spend a week and port both of those to Xamarin forms. James (00:34): Hmm. Well, how much money does each of those make for you? Like what's your customer base? I mean, that's not to say, you don't have to say like in like, I'm not asking for a dollar amount. What I'm asking is which one this is, this is a plain and simple product development. Which one has the most customers that makes you the most money with the most potential for your time? That's what I would do. Frank (00:57): Uh, you mean just pick one and not do both? Is that what you're kind of getting at or do you want, I should answer your question though, I guess. Uh, so both of these make significantly less than iOS. That's why they've unfortunately gotten lower priority. But, um, especially with the virus going around, there are a lot of students learning over video and a lot of teachers using the app. Uh, over video and it needs updating. So you know, I want to get these updates out just for the teachers, for the teachers chains. James (01:31): So I think in this situation what I would ask is next question is okay so is one of them likelier to have a larger adoption? You know, cause you're debating between windows, Android or both. So the question is up becoming will, is there an opportunity today where you can do a quick win to get one of them updated what you work on a rewrite instead of delaying a Baton shuttle potential rewrite that will take longer than doing the other ones. And why I ask if this is like when you think of the potential is like okay, I can update this app in two days and then I can get it out there and get a million installs or I can get this out there in two months. But now I've blown my windows, now I get zero installs of the one that I could have got. Frank (02:24): You are so wise and smart James. But uh, where were you a month ago when I was having fact debate. James (02:34): That's the problem. I don't open up the Zencaster and then say I have a debate James and asked me for my input. You know, I can be your business partner in this Frank, I'll take a 10% cut. I'll guide you through this journey. Frank (02:47): You know, you think I'd learned my lesson now and I'm supposed to, like I was asking you to text me whenever you're like soldering or doing anything with electricity. So I should do this when I'm talking about Android or windows. So point being though, uh, I came to your same conclusion that, um, I started a forms version and then I was like, Ooh, this is a lot of work. Uh, maybe I should just get these updates out real quick instead, you know, like, yes, I want, I want to have a unified code base, but just get some updates out, right? So I spent all day today updating the windows app. Now ready for this part. The windows app is windows 8.1 API. Hmm. Okay. So now you've got to convert this puppy to windows 10 UWP no, no. So I tried that. No, I'll try that. Frank (03:41): Um, so they have like, you know, a windows eight goes to UWP pretty easily. I would say. Uh, it, it took some work. I think I took about a day, but the problem I ran into was I was using a lot of specific windows 8.1 controls that had a certain style about them. And in UWP they just look completely different. And I would say not in functional. Like you're really not supposed to be using them. They're ugly. So doing a UWP version is what I decided was just as much work as doing a forms version. I see. Got you. Then that doesn't make some sense. I mean there's the expectation too that, you know, for your Android version at this point it's very, very old. Right? I think that you, last time you updated it to like some app compat stuff and now you've got to go through who knows what's going on and it did. Frank (04:37): You're gonna need to call me in any ways. Yeah. Point. Um, you know, when I was going through my windows journeys, I had done, you know, windows seven development, eight, eight one development. And then you know, windows 10 game and that was sort of in the same boat. I had to make that, you know, a tough decision of like, well is the tech stack of there to support me? Is it going to create me more work or really should I go all in on this? And you got to ask yourself, then it's like where is your user base and where is it going forward? And most likely it's going to be windows 10 only going forward. So you probably want to just shift completely over to that in general I would assume. Yeah. But even there, there been hiccups like UWP used to be baked into windows, now it's been split off into a new get. Frank (05:24): So there's still a little maintenance things to do there. I still kind of prefer the forms version because I'm putting the the platform work onto someone else. Like I don't have to deal with it at that point. I don't care if it's Android, I don't care if it's windows, I'll just make sure that it adapts nicely to different screen sizes and window sizes, that kind of stuff. But I agree with you. Um, back in the day, um, I was all in, you know me, I like native API APIs, so that's why this windows eight app used windows eight features. You know, like the settings panel, I didn't write a settings panel. I use the baked in one, which I think disappeared in UWP. So you know, just some whole hog features went away. Yeah, James (06:12): that's true. I mean you gotta to probably look at the, the ethos around it, like the ecosystem around it. You could say, okay, like if I convert this to UWP, like should I go strip out all the old stuff and then put in like some of the probably the new community toolkit stuff probably is what you're maybe missing out on. Frank (06:30): I think I pulled some of that in. Like you kind of have to, I think the app was using it in the first place to be honest. Um, you know what I did instead? Well, okay, let's go back to what you said was I wanted to see if I could get an easy win. Like, just, you know, get pull rebase recompile and run it. So I learned one important thing vs 2019 can not create windows eight apps. Then I learned the second thing vs 2017 cannot create windows eight vs 2015 that's what you want people vs 2015 so I did have three versions of visual studio installed. So you know, that took a little bit of time to do. James (07:14): Yeah. Which was all installed side by side elegantly. Isn't that a beautiful thing? Frank (07:19): I mean they did. They did. Um, I haven't dared run the [inaudible] updater app ever since putting 2015 on. I'm just gonna assume they all play together. I don't know. James (07:31): Good. I think, I think ever since 2017 it was sort of the first jump point where you could, you didn't have to on install 2015 completely, just kind of just worked and, and it just kinda just worked, to be honest with you. No, I think this is a great conversation because there's probably a lot of developers that have gone through this. I've worked with some developers recently that actually were targeting older Xamarin forms. They were targeting like Xamarin forms one dot X or two dot Axe. And they're like, you know what, like I've just been frozen in time here but like I or I haven't touched this project in two years and I need to update it because like it's been working, it's been working fine. You know? And sometimes that happens in mobile apps or desktop apps or like I built the thing, it's kind of done and then all of a sudden there's like a new business case, right? James (08:18): Or something breaks in the operating system like, Oh man, I gotta recompile. And you're like, well I can either recompile, which it's going to take me forever and I'm not really adding value here. Or I should really go through the stops, which is okay, I'm going to sit down and rebuild parts of the app. Not necessarily rebuild the app because the beautiful part about your windows app, here's the cool thing of the situation. You're in Frank Krueger now. I don't know anything about your windows development set up if you're an MVVM perfectionist over there or not. But I will say that most likely a lot of your UWP work, your business logic, all that stuff is probably already shared with some of your iOS app or just in general linked into the UWP stuff and that could come across really nice on windows and Android was Xamarin forms. James (09:08): Because here's the thing, really nowadays I'm just, I'm just all in on cross-platform UI. I just really am. I'm just a hundred percent I am. And I was in, I would say 95% maybe because there's going to be used cases where like I, I, I like like app stat, right? Like that is a perfect example of, I mean it could've been Xamarin forms but it's like, you know, you're just writing it for one platform. It just kinda goes type of thing. I'm just sort of, I'm loving this situation because your app is really old, right? You're talking like four years old and it needs an update and you want to provide value to your customers. So I still think it comes back to the port. Like, yes, most likely it makes the most sense to go all in here and just rewrite the thing and Xamarin forms. But I'm still at, I'm a crossroads even though I'm all in on it, right? James (09:59): Like I'm just like all in on it. Like I go to those developers that we're working with and I'm like, Hey, go do this, go do this. And they're like, I don't know, like I should just file new. And I was like, give me your project. Two hours later I'm just like, boom, here you know him because I've done it so much. But so, but now you're in a situation where you're like, well, I'm not James. I'm not just going to magically understand how to convert all those package configs to package references and get through all the Android X shenanigans and all this ridiculousness that has changed because mobile application development things change so fast. But you're in this unique state, right where you, you have potential to make money. And this is why it's really hard for me to give you a yes or no answer here because I don't like, I don't like giving direct input on this thing will make you money or may, may make guess that you can't pay your rent this month. So that's what's really hard for me right now. It's a good debate to have though. Frank (10:59): Well, thank goodness I'm not riding on the razor edge like that. You know, I can spend a week and come on, um, and I will do an update one way or another. It's more about choosing a good path and a path that's going to be productive in the future, that kind of stuff. That's what I think about. But to get to your yes versus no, let me, uh, let me fill you in on a few more pain points that I've gone through on this whole, uh, go on the [inaudible] 2015 route. Yeah. Uh, James, Steve, remember a portable class libraries and.net standard version one. Frank (11:40): Just start groaning. I had forgotten how bad it was back then. And vs 2015 throws you way back in the heady days of 2015. Oh my God. Didn't have value topples. We didn't have, you couldn't write to console console's not included in dotnet standard one. So like anytime I touched the console I had to change it. A C sharp eight doesn't exist in dotnet standard one in 2015 I should say. So I had to rewrite code, well let me start over. So first I have some new get packages. So I had to go back to some of my own new gift packages that I'm referencing and do new releases of those that included dotnet standard 1.2. So that's what you can have people, you don't have 1.2 on 2015 hurts. It hurts. It hurts, which if you remember also changes all of reflection. So all the reflection code I had to rewrite that was fun. Frank (12:45): All the, yeah. And then, uh, fortunately I could keep C sharp eight things because uh, this is nice. I used multi framework targeting. You know, you put target frameworks and you can just put.net standard two point oh.net standard. Uh, 1.2, uh, then you have to remember to include value topples, remember how to do conditional syntax, do that kind of stuff. But that worked and that was fun because I could still use C sharp eight. But then in the actual app code that's actually in visual studio 2015 I have shared code libraries also James. And of course that's going to run through the compiler. So I had I C sharp eight code to C sharp seven. So how are you feeling about that evidence? All right, James (13:30): so at this point you have to ask yourself, do you really want to update the app or do you want to update every single line of your code? And every library you've ever written? No, this is, this is, this really gets to the heart of it, right? Because your application is stuck in time. And luckily there are technologies that allow some of those things to go back, but you have to put some work into it to make it so I think that that the obviously the Donnette team and a lot of those libraries like value tuples and things like that have really come a long way. And I love that you can just compile C sharp and use out on this old older stuff. Like if you don't have C sharp a because it just kind of ma, it's compiler stuff, right? Most of the stuff just works. But no, you're totally right. I totally forgot about that. And that's a struggle because your mind has already been converted. Oh yeah. And what I mean by that is like that time where I was a young desktop developer writing WinForms app and then I moved over to a Zamboni world, like my main, my mind changed and like it was, I'm not going back. And, and that means like every single time you write new code, you have to think of my maintaining this twice. Am I, am I, am I limiting this Frank (14:44): code James (14:46): now? And that's going to cause me more problems later because you're gonna run into problems of like all your null checks like your no conditionals, like no reference, like all that, that the craze knowability stuff actually means that your application would be more fragile so you're rewriting stuff may introduce more code bugs that longterm puts you back that this is a, this is a conundrum Frank, but honestly Frank, we've got to take a break and thank our good sponsor this week. Reagan, listen, are you like Frank and are you struggling to replicate bugs and performance issues in your applications? Whether they're brand new or old. I mean, listen, I've used Frank's apps. We all know that he struggles with this all the time. He needs to really just plug rig on into his mobile apps and his web apps. You can do it right now. You can die news, all of your problems in minutes rather than hours. You can kiss goodbye having to dig through those log files. Listen, there's no counsel right line, no debug right line. Don't worry, Reagan's got you covered. They make your software development life so much easier by using their built in error crash and performance monitoring tools. Listen, every software team can create flawless software experiences for their customers using Reagan, go to reagan.com to get a free trial today. Go to reagan.com and tell them that James and Frank Sencha and that honestly Frank's apps are amazing, but definitely try Reagan. Frank (16:04): Thank you Reagan and yes, I do need all the help I can get. Obviously James, but we all need it. We all need all the help we can get. Speaking, speaking of quality code, uh wow. I totally forgot what I did today and you hit the nail on the head again. Um, I had to remove knowable checks in my code because I had re, you know, I wrote some critical code and I wanted some good and all checking in it. So I put all that in and they get it to compile under vs 2015 removed it all pathetic. James (16:38): You're, you're making the case here, Frank, because what's very fascinating actually at the same time is that while you were doing all of this work to try and to get it there, you didn't stop and say, maybe I should just control a delete and just move forward, file new, you know, um, because it's a struggle. I still think that you wind down a right path. This is probably the path that I would have went down to be honest with you, because I probably would've just wondered my app to be updated and get going. Um, now what I would say though, Frank, is here's my, here's my new recommendation for you. Now that you've done all of this work to backport your code on uncommit that commit, just roll back. Now what I want you to do though, actually don't do, don't do that. Commit. And that's a bad idea. James (17:26): But here's what I want you to do. I want you to do a little spike. I'm a big fan of this. People ask me all the time, should I use Xamarin like iOS or Android or should I just build a Mac app or show you Xamarin forms? It's like, I don't know. I don't know what you're building. It's hard to say, Frank, I don't know what your app does. I've never used it. Even though I own 10 copies. Listen, listen, listen. Here's what I recommend and this is what I've recommended for eight years between my time at Xamarin and Microsoft is what if you just do a day, just do a spike and say, I'm going to do file new and can what I create in a day get me 80% the way there of the application, like look, the field, the functionality or is that cross-platform framework going to limit me so much that I'm going to have to convert it later on back to a UWP application because maybe your app needs like multi window support and all this other stuff that may be, you know, across platform framework may not support any cross-platform framework. James (18:20): Right? Or it will work for you and you're like, I'm, I'm good. Right. But it's better. Almost a day to take the spike to say, am I going down the right path or not? That's my usually my recommendation. Frank (18:33): Yeah. And I actually agree with you wholeheartedly. And I did that day a month ago. Okay. Okay. And I wasn't thoroughly happy with the, first of all, that's why, uh, what I did this time was I promised myself a day to just get that windows version working. You know, it, it, it was that same concept applied like give yourself a day, like just bang on it until it's working. And I decided I was going to go the BS 20 whatever version of us could actually do it. Um, what to say, what to say. I like here was my thought. I don't like to run away from hard work. So yeah, it's a pain in the butt to change it from C sharp a dish, C sharp seven. But if that means that I can do a release of the app tomorrow or in a couple days, whatever, my customers don't care what language I used, you know, that that's me being precious. Frank (19:32): Um, you know, I wrote the app in C sharp four or something, you know, it's fine. Um, so I didn't want to run away from hard work and it was, I would say it wasn't even hard work. I've been through much more terrible, like it started out at 880 errors and I just, you know, worked through it and got there, got done James. And I'm just like, I'm so proud of myself. It compiled, compiled nicely, no warnings, nothing ran the app. It showed a circuit. I was elated. I was like, yes, I'm going to ship this puppy. And then I started to play around a little bit and Oh my God, it's just buggy is a, James (20:17): so you've sort of gone on the route now of you, you got it up and running, you did all the hard work and now sort of, maybe it's not at the satisfaction level or the quality level that you would've liked? Frank (20:29): No. Um, it, and it's hard for me to remember what are like the old bugs and what are new bugs. So like part of me wants, you know, no, I have to go down though the old version NYP, you know, side by side them to see what I've, what bugs I've accidentally introduced whatnot. But that got me to thinking and I think that's where we started this whole conversation because now I'm at this point where, sure I have this running windows version, but it's gonna take days to clean up and get working in good order. Again, the question is can I write a forms version in that same amount of time James (21:11): and get another platform potentially out of it. Even maybe if you don't even ship it today, right. You ship it later. Frank (21:18): Yeah. Or because specifically Android, as you know, I know the Android API, but I don't, I forget it every time I have to go back and try to remember how to work on that Android app. So I would just love it if there was a unified code base. So you were mentioning before, you don't know what style of code I used. Well, the good news is, as you said, a windows eight was totally XAML based and I was all in. I'm like, Hey, view models I can do who models? Well, I Cirque, it's kind of fun because there is that business logic part, like the circuit simulator and even the drawing code that's all easily sharable, like 80% of the code that just comes along for free. Then I have graphical views and then I have native UI views and native UI views. I've only got like six, five, you know, so I only have like five or six view models. That's what kind of gives me confidence that I could do this because the graphical views should be relatively free to port over. The business logic is free and then it's just all about how well can I replicate the old Android and windows native UI parts and forms. James (22:41): Yeah, that makes sense. I mean, well, one of the cool parts I guess is that, well depends is kind of a gets hard because like if you have, you got on the actual route that you should go down. Like there's this raw in which you're like, this is the route that I actually should go down, which is to probably upgrade it to UWP make it all super nice and modern, go through that route. And then you just have one platform you have to worry about Android. I mean, the nice part there is in either way you go, you can always sort of drop down to the native stacks. So if something's not in forms, you can always drop down there. Man, this is very tricky. I think that, um, uh, as this problem, which is, I often in conversation try to solutionize everything. Like, you know, you came to me and you're like, here's the thing that I'm going through. James (23:29): And, and sometimes I have a hard time just listening and asking questions instead of coming up with solutions. This is the thing that I do that I'm, I'm learning to try to get better. So let me further ask you another question here, Frank. How [inaudible] how important is it for you to actually have both of these applications, windows and Android, um, out at the same time? Like, let me just, let me just start asking you asking questions. So maybe sometimes it's helped. I think it helps me to vocalize out loud and then discuss. So, so let me ask you that question first. Frank (24:04): Well, certainly it hasn't been the highest priority just by if you look at past behavior and do your measurements based off of that, how do I emotionally feel? Um, I really wish they were out there. I don't like devoting a lot of time to them. Again, just because profit wise, you know, my time wise, it just doesn't make sense to devote half of my year to the Android app. You know, just, I can't do that. Um, but it weighs on my conscience and soul that they're not there because the app was designed to be cross platform. It's really not that much more work. So I feel a little bit of guilt honestly, that they're not there. But I don't think that that's a good business motivator. Guilt. I'm just putting it out there. James (24:54): Well, the other question I would then ask you to, to kind of dig a little bit deeper on this is how are you going to feel if you do put out the applications and then have to maintain them for the next X years? Like is that something that you are willing to invest in longterm? Because now, now I'm getting to the point by the way, which is I'll get to my hypothesis here of what you should actually do, but I want to get some more information before I finalize this. In my mind, Frank (25:22): maintenance is the pain and success of maintenance or somehow proportional to how much custom code is there on the platform. Um, if I implement a feature like, okay, there's a feature where I want to have a library manager inside of the app, so I have to build a little UI that has a list. You can add things to the list, you can subtract things from the list, maybe set some properties on things in the list. So I S I have to write that UI, uh, for iOS and Mac and I'm like, well, I might as well just write that UI informs, you know, because then if I ever get these other apps out, then um, the maintenance cost is essentially zero. I just have to recompile and re-upload and that's much easier than writing a UI element and testing a UI element, orders of magnitude difference. They're in pain and suffering basically. Um, so that's the story I tell myself that um, if I can remove a lot of this custom stuff that I would be more motivated to not just motivated to maintain them, but the maintenance burden would just be a lot less and therefore I would get releases out more often. What was your question? No, I think that I, that's good. I think, I think James (26:44): that's talking, talking through the longterm support of it. And then now another question for you. Do you believe that by releasing these apps, the amount of time and energy the to put into them? Let's say it's the re three weeks of work, we'll just throw out that number, right? That's like a sprint. Do you believe that the return on that value and that investment will outweigh had you invested in other projects or in the current version of I circuit? Frank (27:16): I'm pretty sure, and this is me talking with two apps on the table, that I really want to release, that releasing those apps from a business point of view will be a lot more profitable. Uh, because which one? Which one? The, the windows and Andrea version or the other ones. Oh, I'm sorry. Uh, new apps that have not been released yet versus the windows and Android versions of ice circuit. Just historically, I know how they perform and I don't think things have changed much there actually. I think out of Android and windows, if I'm being a business person, I think it's Android actually, that I would make the most money on. Oddly enough, there's just a lot of students out there with tablets. Basically. Here's the, here's what I'm going to do, Frank, I'm going to throw a crazy suggestion out there. You're going to hate it. I'm pretty sure outside the box and our listeners may may shun me for this, but, and that's okay. James (28:11): Here's, here's what I'm going to recommend. Here's my idea and let's talk through it. I'm recommending you don't update the applications. You deprecate them, you let them go because you have Frank new, better ideas that you could bring to those platforms without having to energize and put the work in here. Move forward. Don't look at your past in this situation, right? This is my recommendation. This is my, this is my, this is not a recommendation. This is a thought that I want to put in your head because here's my justification for it. From everything you said. One, no matter what you do, not going to be easy. There's no quick wins. You already tried it, right? And even the quick wins didn't try to result in corrections both ways. Both of the native quick win and the forms quick win. And you could go through the route, which is, let me go basically create a new application. James (29:06): That's really what you're going to do and they're going to really, really use a lot of stuff. But you're going to have to do the testing. I'll do new thing. Even if you did UWP, even if you did Android, if you did Xamarin forms, you got to reprioritize them. You gotta update the app stores. You've got to do all the things right where you have potential in applications that are unfinished, that are closer to being finished, that could generate more revenue for you today. That seemed to be more important to you in a way. This is mine. This is my, at least input here. I think it's going to be maybe, maybe the hardest decision that maybe you have to make when it comes to ice circuit, but this is what I'm, this is what I'm gathering. You know, and I've done this by the way, and the reason I'm telling you this is because I've done this because I have sat there and for years I sat there and I updated meetup manager over and over and over again. James (29:56): Now, it only, it didn't make money. It definitely did make a little bit of money for me. I used it myself. I upgraded it. I upgraded it to every version from MVVM cross to Xamarin, Xamarin forms to all the way up to the latest version about offline sync. I did all this stuff in it. And what I realized is that I could've been using that time to make other applications that would have been way more profitable, way more impactful, and what brought more joy to my actual life. So that's at least my story of applicants. So I let it go. It's gone. It's completely gone. It's just, it's gone. And I, I'm never going to return to it. And, and I, I've, I've said, okay, Frank (30:41): I love that. At the 28 minute Mark, you basically just flip the table over. You're just like, no, everything you just said is wrong. Um, I actually kind of love everything you just said. I think you always forget that I'm slightly a sociopath and I love destroying things. Um, I actually really love that. Um, one part of me would still love to give as I've done. Um, I tried one day on forms to get a feel for it, one day on windows to get a feel for it. I'd still like to do a one day, um, sprint on Android just to see if I can get an update out, you know, just because I haven't tried, you know, I hate having that question Mark in my head. Um, but it's quite possible I'll run into all the, you know, same bugs and problems all over again. Frank (31:32): So I think I'd still do that. But contingent on that, I am digging completely your philosophical stand point here of, you know, move on from the past. You know, that first album was pretty good time to make, you know, albums five and six and seven, all that stuff. Um, I actually do like that a lot. It's liberating, obviously. I think it's the opposite of guilt. It's the other way to get around guilt. Like instead of doing the task, just say, Oh no, I'm just going to, instead of painting the house, I'll just bring the house down, you know, that's accomplishing the same thing. Um, it's that metaphor, probably a positive spin on that. James (32:13): There's the where's there's the thing, right? Which is, let's say you do something to your house and you bandaid it and you're like, okay, well that bandaid is great, but now I'm not going to work on anymore because actually the real work is basically to tear the whole thing down. So stop patching it and just let it go at some point. Um, and I think that's okay. I mean the, the thing, the reason I ask so many questions is because had it been an application that was something, you know, was gangbusters, right? And it was doing really well and was bringing in tons of profit and had all this potential and you just needed to keep it going. You would have already been keeping it going right. You've already, you would have already, there was a reason you didn't invest in, in it. Right. Just like the same reason I didn't invest in meetup manager once I stopped using it once I sort of saw a trickle down in the maximum users were there that were, you know, just go in. James (33:04): Um, it was just kind of time that I felt, you know, it was go time and I had to let it gun. That's what you see, you know, innovations. Right. And you see applications come, you see applications go and um, or are they [inaudible] they almost rewrite themselves right? When you think of overcast or you think of some of the, the, the phones, uh, the apps on your phone. Sometimes you apps have lifespans, but then sometimes the same application just becomes something brand new. Almost like a reinvention of like, here's what we're doing now. Like this is what's happening and it's go time. Frank (33:38): Yeah. And I kind of love the idea. Sorry that that was all very inspirational. What you said. I'm just going to go back to something more concrete. I love the idea of converting the new apps to forms rather than the old app to forms because they are imported that app a million times and it's got funny little quirks because it's gone through a million different API APIs and things like that. Whereas now I'm much more mature as we all say as programmers, you know, I can do a much better job, a much cleaner job, you know, much less code. So I like the green field pasture of it as all programmers do too. Oh, I like it. We're, we're ending on a happy note. James (34:19): Nice. Catalytic, echo. Medico okay. Now it just ruined it. Okay. Roots as, okay. Oops. Yeah. Then there's also some other benefits here that I want to say too is um, I recently just really kicked, started a new application and I've just been really enjoying just all the new productivity features, all the new features. I'm using some third party libraries by some of our sponsors. Um, which is cool as they've community additions of stuff. I've just been really enjoying like all the new Donna core three one features like new function features. And I was like, man, like for me to go update that old stuff, it doesn't make a lot of sense. Right. Cause now I'm just actually enjoying the development more and that's sort of what I want to do again is that risk versus reward. So I think that the positivity is like there's a, there's something on the horizon, right? James (35:10): Cause I think if you would've come into here, by the way, I want to make sure I flipped this correctly for people. So not just like James just says, throw away everything. The thing is had you come in and say I have nothing else. Right. And now I'm sitting in the point where I've updated this one application, it's amazing. And now I'm in the point where I can create something brand new or I can, you know, just do this. And then I think like you would have done something in that space. But since there is other potential, I think it's time Frank (35:38): to just to let us or let it go. Take off some things. James (35:41): Fresh air, just breathe it all in. It's a happy international cold brew day. So maybe drink some cold brew coffee right now. Mm. Enjoy that Frank (35:50): Frank. Uh, I will say your app is looking quite good. You sent me a screenshot just before the show. I see lots of gradients. I appreciate gradients. Flat design is way too overrated. And I see funny fonts. I love funny fonts. Every app should have some kind of custom font. There's a lot of cheap ons out there. Go get one. Guess how much of that font is going to cost me every year. Oh wait, you did, you bought the wrong font from the wrong company then? Um, how much I can 100 bucks a year. James (36:25): Nope. It's a lot more than that. So this is a, uh, this is a, well I haven't decided if I'm going to use it yet. So you can use this font for free consumer, like your own personal use. But if you want to make money or publish something with it, with it, you need to get her license. Right. And for my website, I have a yearly one to like Adobe and I have a bunch of other ones that I pay for. But when it comes to mobile application, I've never embedded a Frank (36:48): custom font James (36:51): in my mobile apps. Like I've embedded fonts like font awesome. And other ones that are free additions, but I've never gone to like a small Frank (36:59): mom and mom and pop a boutique font. It's quite expensive. I can't even repeat how much money is going to cost me every year. So that's why I haven't decided why I'm going to, um, if I'm gonna use it. But I think the custom fonts make apps look very good in certain uses. Yeah, I think so too. And um, I don't want to turn this into a font show, but we should totally do that next week. Um, there are five houses, um, that specialized for apps and have much better terms, flat rate. So you pay 200 bucks and you don't pay any royalties. So they are specifically designed for apps and they're very excellent and I'm just completely blanking on the name right now. Well we can bring it to our next next week's talk, which [inaudible] talks by the way. So get your lightning talk topic saying yeah, good emerge conflict.fm had that contact button tweeted us, do the things. Frank (37:54): Frank, I hope that you have a very productive week and that we get updates on our lightning talk around next week about what you've done. I'm very excited for you, Frank. We just flipped my whole week upside down so I don't know what I'm doing now. It's all lost. I'm just going to have to go on a pilgrimage. I'll enter the desert or something and think things over. I think through my life, decisions will stay six feet away from everybody. Wash your hands for 20 seconds, stay safe, and that's going to do it for this week's merge conflict. Thanks to Reagan for sponsoring this week's pod, and until next time I'm [inaudible] Speaker 1 (38:25): automatic pride. Kroger, thanks for listening.