IRC log of #schooltool for Thursday, 2006-03-23

vmxhow are multi day events sorted?00:48
vmxok, there a sorted on the day the start00:50
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vmxanyone here? shouldn't all day events be independent of the timezone?01:30
vmxor doesn't schooltool handle the case that a user switches the timezone but has already entered some events?01:31
th1aWhat happens now?01:31
vmxi enter an all day event on let's say 2005-03-1901:32
vmxin UTC01:32
vmxnow i switch to CET01:32
vmxif i edit the event i still see 2005-03-19, but in the calendar (week view) i see it on 2005-03-2001:33
vmxoh, wait, i see it on both days01:34
vmxeven in day vew01:35
vmxbut it's a good question how this should be handled by schooltool01:35
vmxok, it's a bug. even if add a new event i see it on 2 days01:37
vmxtimezones are really tricky01:37
vmxon my new code it doesn't happen, so it should be that hard to fix01:38
vmxanyone here for a discussion how this problem should be solved? i think i can fix it, i just need to know how it should look like in the end01:48
vmxi propose, that the all day event should occur at the date it was entered (the day the db says). and only as often as the duration lasts01:49
Gwynnth1a: I'd be happy to start on a translation of the site. Have registered. Need me to mail you first or is this way also a valid opion?02:04
vmxth1a: i would have a patch ready to fix the all-day-timezone-problem02:25
vmxit would be nice if it would be checked in:
vmxi can't remember the person who added the multi-day support. perhaps he could take a look at this patch02:32
vmxhm, the question is, should a multiday event be returned by getEvents twice (for both days) and displayed only on one day, or should it returned only once02:42
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deangI have an edubuntu question @ schooltool. Should I proceed here or move to #edubuntu?03:05
th1adeang:  Still here?03:18
th1aGwynn:  I can upgrade your account.03:19
vmxplease forget my patch, it should not be fixed when displayed, but when created03:20
th1avmx:  We were a bit naive about the difficulty of timezones.03:21
th1aWe probably should have avoided them altogether.03:21
Gwynnth1a: yes please. looked at the howto ^started a bit on the personal pages allready .. language is dutch btw03:21
th1aHow do you say dutch in dutch?03:22
Gwynnth1a: the account is then also valid for LinguaPlone?03:22
vmxth1a: yes, right. perhaps it would be the best to set it to UTC and leave it alone. there doesn't seem much usage for timezones03:22
deangth1a: Sorry, back03:22
th1avmx:  There is usage for timezones, just not so much for SCHOOLS, unfortunately.03:23
Gwynnth1a, vmx _yet_03:23
vmxth1a: ok, it might. but not even for me. i want to use the calendar for small business03:24
deangI installed flight 5.   Frustrated that there isn't a short-cut to localhost schooltool.  In either Firefox or Applications.03:24
vmxand comments like those:         # XXX utc here is a bug, probably
vmx        start_dt = datetime.combine(start, time(tzinfo=utc))03:24
vmxaren't that nice03:24
th1adeang:  That is a good point, if edubuntu is going to start a SchoolTool server by default it should at least give you a link to it.03:25
th1avmx:  We also had some problems with some developers who are no longer with us who are responsible for some of these problems.03:26
th1aGwynn:  OK, you should be able to create translations now.03:27
deangth1a: Also very surprised that Gcompris is not in Education.    I'm happy with it in games, but would also like it in Education.03:27
th1aGwynn... hmmm, your language hasn't appeared though.03:28
th1adeang:  I don't work on edubuntu directly.03:28
deangerg, wrong forum. my apologies.03:28
Gwynnth1a: I'll go and check it in a minuet03:29
th1aGwynn:  OK.03:29
th1aGwynn:  OK, I Dutch is in there now.03:30
th1aGwynn:  Note that LinguaPlone doesn't work with some of our content types now, and I'm not very confident about it in general, so working in a text editor and keeping a copy of your translations is not a bad idea.03:31
Gwynnth1a: ok, duly noted. I'll go have a looksee now03:31
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vmxok, here's the new patch
vmxit's a much better solution than the old one04:00
vmxnow the bug gets fixed where it occurs04:01
Gwynnth1a: ok so I have translated the call for volunteers (sic) but unfortunately cant translate the graphical instructions. I'll find me another piece to chew on :)04:08
vmxi still haven't solved the bug completely04:14
vmxthe problem is, when you add allday events in an earlier timezone (e.g. europe) and you change it to e.g. EST, day is one day before04:15
vmxthe question is: do we want it this way? i think there is no plain right or wrong04:16
th1avmx:  I would say that an all day event should never shift due to a timezone change.04:39
vmxor they are still all day events, and the "borders" get "normal" events04:42
th1aWhat do you mean by "borders?"  The beginning and end of the day in the original timezone?04:43
vmxbut this will be most probably not that easy to code, or ugly code04:43
vmxalthough that's also not that right04:43
vmxif you think of situations where all day events occur04:44
vmxe.g. vocations04:44
vmxthey don't really start at stop at 0:0004:44
th1aThey simply should never change as a result of timezones changing.04:44
vmxon the other hand04:44
vmxif e.g. i add my vacations in germany04:45
vmxand you will look at it in the us04:45
vmxforget it04:46
vmxit to theoretical ;)04:46
vmxi mean, even if you would co-work across the world with a calendar04:46
vmxeverybody with some brain will understand, that an all day event is in the co-workers timezone, and not in yours04:47
vmxis it right that schooltool tries to be like the icalendar standard?04:48
vmxthen there's a nice solution. you can specify a date without a timezone, which means it is everywhere at the same time04:48
vmxi guess it isn't implemented in schooltool, is it?04:49
th1aYes, we implement iCalendar.04:49
vmxok, do you perhaps "no time zone" is implemented?04:50
vmx+know if04:50
th1aI don't know.04:50
vmxdo you remember who implemented the multi-day events?04:51
th1aI'm afraid I don't.04:51
Gwynnth1a: I like to use this channel but if Im messing up the conv dont hesitate to tell me to shut up. Now :  "What IS Included?" We hope .." why hope? why not "aim" or expect or plan or intend (or insist :P)...04:56
th1aI suppose it reflects some lack of confidence on my part.04:57
Gwynnwant me to translate or be a lil bit more confident: ;)04:59
th1aYou could express more confidence.05:00
GwynnIĺl just use the dutch word for expect05:00
Gwynnno, intend for the first hope and expect for the seond :) the first is after all basic funcions :)05:03
* Gwynn abandons all hope05:13
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Gwynndutch vision is up, I'm affraid its hopeless :)05:37
th1aGwynn:  Thanks!05:37
th1aBy the way, we've hired some developers in Rotterdam, if you didn't know that already.05:38
Gwynnno I didn't .. which firm if I can ask, maybe I know them05:39
Gwynndont know them05:39
th1aThey're a Zope shop.  They created a content management system called SIlva.05:39
GwynnI just stumbled over SchoolTool a few days back, and Im no developer, I'm an entire different breed of hacker :)05:40
th1aWhere in Holland are you?05:41
GwynnI'll try to remmber hat, allways on the lookout for and testing new cmsses05:41
th1aIs that near Rotterdam?05:41
th1aI've only been to Rotterdam, Heerlen and the Amsterdam airport.05:42
Gwynneverything is relatively close to each other in the netherlands :) but yes it is, I think half an hour, an hour by train05:42
Gwynnyou ask m to heck the translation, if they like what they see I'm happy to do some more05:44
Gwynncheck* even05:44
GwynnI allowed for discussion in it05:44
th1aOK.  Did you look at the Rosetta interface to translate the application itself?05:45
Gwynnyes I did and I translated a bit in there as well but I was gonna see if i could install it and show to some teacher friends, so I could get a better grip on some of the terms used, like the term term, which has tons of meanings :)05:46
th1aActually, I need to fix our glossary as well.05:47
th1aIt seems to be broken.05:47
Gwynnand there was a lot in there that was allreay translated quite good (onetheo or so) but it didnt sho in the fields and I didn't now what to do with thos05:48
th1aWhat do you mean it didn't show in the fields?05:50
th1aDidn't show up in the application when you ran it?05:51
Gwynnno. I mean there like x 'untranslated' fields but a lot of them have the right translation not in the input field, but mentioned under that, with 'previous occurance' or so somewhere else05:52
Gwynnlike all the names of the months, they are there, but not in the input field05:52
th1aBut it looks like you could override them if you wanted to?05:52
th1aDo they show up correctly in the application?05:53
Gwynnyeah, I think I could copy and paste them, but that would be rude toward the guy who gave the original translation05:53
GwynnI dont know, I havent run the application yet05:53
GwynnI'm dragging hardware all over town and wrestling with miles of cables05:54
th1abtw, isn't it like, 5:00AM there?05:54
Gwynnthat why Im here on this BUFF which is actually my play machine, I usually dont use it for serious things05:54
th1aAre you a vampire?05:54
th1aActually, I often go to bed at 3:00, so I shouldn't talk.05:55
Gwynn:P last timei checked i had a hardbeat and could see stubs in the mirror05:55
GwynnI used moved my operational timeframe, less hasle, no people calling, paying unexpected visits, dragging me to the bar05:56
th1aYes, I know the technique well.05:57
Gwynnwhat time are you at now if I can ask?05:58
vmxForbiddenAttribute: ('dtend', < object at 0xb11f0cec>) :-/06:01
th1aGwynn:  It is 23:00.06:01
Gwynnahh you wuss06:01
Gwynn:) but itś time for me to wind down and call it a day :)06:02
th1aI'll be up at least three more hours.06:03
th1aGood night.  Nice chatting with you.06:03
vmxok, this error is to much for today, g'night06:03
th1avmx:  What brought that up?06:03
vmxi try to print out event.dtend06:04
vmxevent.dtstart works06:04
Gwynnlikewise, hope Infrae likes it, Ill get back here tomorrow06:04
th1avmx:  Yeah, I can't help you with that.  Good night.06:04
vmxgwynn we are in the same timezone06:05
Gwynnvmx: you one of the ppl from rotterdam?06:05
vmxok then good night to all of you06:05
vmxno, i live in germany06:05
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vmxhi ignas13:30
ignasvmx, hi13:31
vmxlt, is that latvia?13:33
vmxignas: were you the one who added the multi-day support?13:35
ignasvmx, yes13:35
ignasvmx, foud a bug already ? :)13:35
ignaslt is lithuania13:35
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ignasand the bug is ?13:36
vmxwith timezones (you'll say oh my god timezones ;)13:36
vmxi have written already 3 different bugfixes, everyone got better, but still not perfekt13:36
vmxit spans 1 day to long13:36
vmxor it starts on the worng day13:37
vmxth1a and i thought about it. an all day event should be timezone independant13:37
ignasoh, well - i am going for these bugs slowly and in a way that will kill them all13:37
ignasvmx, there is such small thing like - monday on UTC might be Sunday in Australia ...13:38
ignasand when one is requesting a range "midnight - midnight tomorow", timezone has to be taken into accound when determining what is the "date" of the timestamp13:39
vmxor you declare it independant13:39
ignaswell - can you tell should an Australian see "2005-01-01" event on 2005-01-01 00:00:00 UTC without knowin ghis timezone ?13:40
vmxwhat's the problem=13:41
ignasthe idea was - adding a timezonde attribute to the expand() functions (the alternative would be taking the timezone of the first timestamp, but that would be not elegant/implicit)13:42
ignasso we would know what is the "date" of the timestamp13:42
ignasand could map allday event date to the user date13:42
ignasproblems that appear without that are - events occuring each monday in Australia are shifting to Sunday on UTC and we can't handle it properly yet13:43
ignasand lot's of similar issues13:43
vmxbut if you think of the cases when an allday event is used13:44
vmxit is always clear that it is in the timezone the one who entered it lives13:44
ignasyou must take into account that - events have no timezone, they are all UTC13:44
ignasin the backend13:44
ignasi am thinking of gradualy adding support for timezones on events, which involves adding timezone support to ICalendar export (i did the import already)13:45
ignasadding timezones to events13:45
ignasadding timezones to event edit/add UI13:45
ignasfixing hour grid to accomodate 23 hour and 25 hour days13:45
vmxdo you mean events in ical have no timezones, or the ones in schooltool13:46
ignasthe ones in schooltool13:46
ignasand we are exporting them in UTC13:46
ignasthus losing user data13:46
vmxbut what about handling all day events without any timezone?13:47
vmxok, they will be internally UTC in schooltool, but not for the user/high level coder13:47
vmxall day events aren't even UTC, they are real local time13:48
ignasbackend does not support that yet ...13:48
ignasyou can only request all events in a range (dtstart, dtend)13:48
ignasyou can work around it by making 2 requests, but it'd be ugly13:49
vmxhm, yes you make the request, so you'll get the needed all day events13:50
vmxthen there's a function where the dates are transformed from UTC to the disired timezone13:51
vmxthe only think you need to do is not converting the all day events13:51
vmxvoila, you have have the all day events as expected13:51
vmxam i wrong?13:51
ignasconverting all day events to what ?13:54
vmxyou don't convert the all day events13:55
vmxif it is on 2005-03-04, it doesn't matter where you are13:56
vmxtheoretically there would be a difference of course, but not practically13:56
vmxi'm not sure if it should be done in that function or in getEvents, but that's a patch i created yesterday (it might still be not perfect)13:57
ignasthe conversion should stay imho, the problem is getEvents will not return some all day events that would be in the date range13:59
ignasyou should try testing it in a TDD style - add a unit that breaks14:00
ignasTest driven development14:01
ignasthe style where you are not touching the code14:01
ignasuntil you got a unit test that fails14:01
ignasthis helps you to be 100% sure about what behaviour you expect14:02
ignasbefore programming14:02
vmxi've done that (ok not really nice, but my way)14:02
ignasinstead of changing the code and looking whether you like the result or not14:02
vmxas i said the patch isdn't finished yet14:02
vmxbut i broke already14:03
vmxi had cases to break it14:03
vmxi think getEvents will return all needed events. atm soem wrong ones, but that can be fixed14:05
ignaserr - what if you would really try it14:07
ignasby let's say adding some all day events14:08
ignasand looking a t getEvents14:08
ignaswith Hawai timezone14:08
ignasand new zealand timezone14:08
ignasyou know, just to be sure ;)14:08
vmxyesterday i tried it with UTC, EST and CET14:08
vmxi know, i need to write unit test, no question. but i'd like to know if i'm on the right why, or if you think i'm completely wrong14:09
ignasall timezones fall in +offset zone14:09
ignaslast statement was false14:09
vmxi just take a look at the differences, e.g. setting up an event in EST and viewing in CET14:10
ignasyou see - Australia is the other extreme14:11
vmxbut as the getEvents looks like it should work14:11
ignasthat should be tested too14:11
vmxyes i'll try that14:11
ignasyou need a  -10 timezone, UTC, +10 timezone14:11
vmxand writing a propper unit test14:11
ignaswell - now that i think14:12
vmxbut atm all day events a wrong. i mean an 1 day event occurs on 2 days on different timezones14:12
ignasyour approach will work14:12
ignasbut it will be wrong, as the getEvents and expand both are a part of schooltool, leaving bug in the backend and covering it up14:12
ignasis not the right approach :14:12
vmxdoes schooltool save dtend or duration?14:12
vmxi which backend?14:13
ignasthe function that returns too many events is not a good thing tm14:14
vmxno it won't it uses getEvents14:14
ignasgetEvents does what ?14:15
vmxor am i wrong?14:15
ignas            for event in calendar.expand(start_dt, end_dt):14:15
ignasthe line in getEvents14:15
vmxyes, it returns to much all day events, as e.g. one is at 2005-02-15 and duration is 1d14:16
vmxso it's dtend is 2005-02-1614:16
vmxif you have start_dt=2005-02-16 it gets returned14:16
vmxbut that shouldn't be too hard to fix14:17
vmxof course the same will most probably happen to events that are e.g. at 23:00 and have duration 1h14:17
vmxger really all needed events returned (i'm speaking of non-all day events)14:19
vmxi'm not sure14:19
ignasthese things are quite easily tested when writing tests for Calendar/CalendarEvent expand functions14:20
ignasand i think you should be fixing them not getEvents or _getDays14:20
vmxyou're right. you have a better code knowledge :)14:21
vmxi had a short look, they don't look that nice ;)14:21
vmxtimezones are really complex matter14:22
vmxand they are mixex up in schooltool (at least i have the impression)14:23
ignasvmx, histerical reasons, the mistake of thinking that "storing everythin in UTC on the backend will simplyfy things"14:24
ignasthe fact that they were added by programmers that did not grasp the true complexity of timezones ...14:25
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vmxyes, th1a told me yesterday that they were to naiv about the easyness of timezones14:25
vmxalthough i think storing everything in UTC isn't that wrong14:26
ignasvmx, it is!14:26
ignasDaylight saving time14:26
ignasand jumping events14:26
vmxbut what if you have different timezones at once14:26
vmxthat would make problems14:26
vmxe.g. the european daylight saving time starts this weekend, the us ones next week14:28
vmxthe expanf i'm looking for is on calendar/, right?14:29
ignasboth expands14:30
ignasthe XXX parts by mgedmin14:31
ignasmy suggestion is - add timezone argument to the function, but if you will solve the problem more elegantly - i'll be glad ;)14:31
vmxfirst i have to check and understand what it really does14:32
ignassrichter, ayt ?14:35
srichteryes, but I am still booting14:41
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vmxhm, expand shouldn't work at. i really wonder how it works ;)14:47
srichterignas: ok, now I am here14:49
ignasis there some particular reason why gradebook views gradebook/browser/ has so much code not covered by unit tests ?14:51
* ignas is just wondering, there is a chance the code has a lot of functional tests14:51
srichterignas: I usually do not write unit tests for view code14:51
srichterI do write ftests to cover all angles though14:51
ignasi see, a lot of that code seems to be unit testable though ... like with many branching if statements etc.14:53
vmxui, getEvents is really strange15:04
vmxif you print out start_dt and end_dt values. i really wonder why schooltool wants events from such ranges15:04
ignasthree month calendar viewlets15:08
ignason the left side15:08
ignastomorow event viewlet15:08
ignas+ caching15:08
ignasand events you can see in the current calendar view15:09
vmxah, the three month calendat viewlet: 2006-01-30 00:00:00+00:00 2006-05-01 00:00:00+00:0015:09
ignasvmx, if you have non UTC timezone set then these dates are a bug ;)15:29
ignasunless you skipped tzinfo part15:29
vmxi've set it to CET (Europe/Berlin)15:31
vmxignas: i think i need to change things in _getDays15:31
vmxthe funny thing is that i had a patch for that yesterday, but then i thought i was wrong15:31
vmxit seems i was right15:32
vmxin _getDays the events get splitted into the days (or better to day, the events are assigned to the days)15:33
vmxwith this patch all day events get assigend to really a certain day, and not between days when you switch the timezone15:34
ignasallday events with a datetime as their dtstart is an oxymoron :/15:35
ignasbut spliting event into 2 different classes is a lot of work15:35
vmxno you mustn't15:36
vmxjust ignore the time15:36
ignasyou see - constructor handling arguments in 2 different ways depending on the value of the "allday" argument might be too convoluted15:38
ignasand all the code dispatching on "allday" should go into events15:39
ignasat least that's what OOP books are saying15:39
ignaselse - someone might and WILL forget to check such thingds, and bugs will apear in other places ...15:40
ignasbut yes - if it is possible to solve it in an elegant manner without 2 different classes - it would be easier15:40
ignasno evolution scripts, less modifications to the code15:41
vmxthat's my proposition:15:41
vmxone moment please. i had an idea but it wasn't good15:43
vmxok, it's not that good but perhaps good enough15:45
vmxinternally alldayevents are datetime events (like all others). when you want to change something with the timezone or whatever, you just have to check if it is an allday event or not15:46
vmxit would be cleaner to have an extra event for alldayevents which is date and not datetime15:46
ignas"you just have to check" part is really bad idea ...15:47
vmxyes i know, but15:47
vmxbut that wouldn't be very pratically, think of the duplicated code when you e.g. want all events15:47
ignasprogrammers are people, people do forget such things, new programmers just don't know such stuff15:47
vmxyou would need a function to get all "normal" events, and one for alldayevents15:48
vmxthe would do exactly the same thing, the only difference is between the date and datetime object15:48
ignasyou see - that would be better than the current state of affairs15:48
ignasbecause - one need to handle both kinds of events differently all the time15:48
ignasand only in some cases need to get ALL the vents15:48
ignastough perfectly it is possible with one selector15:49
ignasand 2 different classes15:49
ignasif it was easy - we would have already implemented that though :/15:49
vmxhm you're right. i don't know if you've seen my screenshot some days ago, i'd like to have alldayevents displayed in a differnt way15:49
ignasno i haven't seen it15:50
vmxnot very nice yet, just a rough test15:50
vmxi have to admit it would be easier/nicer with 2 classes15:51
ignassome ordinary events can span multiple days too15:52
vmxhm, that's true15:52
vmxthat would be a reason for not splitting it into 2 classes15:52
vmxand if you make a new alldayclass, but use the existing functions?15:53
ignasvmx, you see - 2 classes does not mean 2 interfaces15:53
ignas2 classes would be used only to avoid if self.allday: foo else: bar code in methods15:54
vmxyes, but you would need to duplicate code15:54
vmxthe problem is the differnce between date and datetime15:55
vmxor you create only 2 classen and convert between date and datetime all the time15:55
vmxthat would at least give programmers an error message if they use alltheday events15:56
ignasthe "right way"(tm) would be - adding if allday: else:15:56
ignasblocks to the currente event class15:56
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ignasmaking it use Date for ddtstart for allday events15:56
ignasfix everything that breaks15:56
ignasand then see whether it should be refactored into 2 classes15:56
vmxthe question is: how should the breaks be fixed?15:57
vmxconverting between date and datetime (and the other way round) all the time?15:57
vmxwould you prefer converting between them before you pass them to a function or make a "if self.__class__" at the beginning and at the end of a function?15:59
ignasno and no15:59
vmxk :)15:59
ignasit all depends on why and when do you want to add a time to the date16:00
ignasthe only reason is - to compare it with a datetime16:00
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vmxyes, but it happens all the time, when you e.g. need the events of a specific time interval16:00
ignasand for these cases - you should be aware of users timezone (reasons i have stated earlier), and the relevant code should appear in some method of Simple calendar event maybe16:00
ignasit might even be sane (or maybe not) to add a __cmp__ function that compares an event with a datetime16:01
vmxhm, timezones wouldn't/shouldn't be a problem, as normally the function are timezone aware, and the alldayevents needn't16:03
ignaswell - i'd say the code that compares datetime and date should get isolated in the expand, (not sure, can't check, i am quite busy at the moment)16:04
ignasor another idea - different expands - one for "timestamp, timestamp" and another for "date, date"16:05
ignasbecause well - you might say that expanding all day events between two timestamps is not making any sense16:05
vmxwhat do you mean with "expand"? the current expand function?16:06
vmxthat isn't the critical part16:06
ignasit's all interconnected ...16:07
vmxthe critical part is where the events get splitted/assigned to the days16:07
ignasthat part is easily fixable by adding a function like "getDateInterval" to an event or something like that16:08
vmxin expand they have no real assignment to the days. expand just get all events16:08
ignasevent knows dates it belongs to better than anyone else ;)16:08
vmxyes to dates, but not to days16:09
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vmxwhat do you mean exactly with "getDateInterval"? is it hte interval the event acutually spans in the users timezone?16:12
ignassorry i don't really have enough time to work on this at the moment :(16:13
vmxok, np16:13
vmxit was a nice discussion, we'll see what other ideas i'll have :)16:14
ignasthe problem with these bugs is - that they require some redesign of interfaces/classes in the schooltool.calendar and other places16:14
ignasand design, especially if it's any good is difficult to create16:14
vmxi actually don't need timezones, but i feel a bit bad creating new code on top of ugly/not fully working code16:15
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ignasi do feel bad about it too, as i have skills and knowledge to fix that code, yet - new features are more important at the moment, as schooltool is not a Calendaring only application16:19
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ignasand - some bugs are so obscure that well - they are not really important to users ;)16:20
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Gwynn /msg NickServ IDENTIFY <owlsnest>16:30
mgedminGwynn: now we all know your nickserv password ;)16:31
Gwynnbloody hell I thought i clicked the other channel16:31
Gwynnhrmpf, thnx for the warning :)16:32
vmxignas: can you give me a small hint where the events get into schooltool. i mean when you create a new one. i haven't found it in the source16:33
vmxhm, i think i found it16:35
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mgedminGwynn: /msg nickserv help set password16:56
Gwynnmgedmin: thnx a bundle, done :)16:58
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vmxcan i delete all my events somehow?18:57
vmxforget, i have another one: where is the part in the source where the stored events become objects?19:01
th1avmx:  What do you mean, become objects?19:01
vmxi mean the initialization19:02
vmxi think i found it19:02
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welshth1a:  you there?23:44

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