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7:00 PM
@Scratte happened once with me. It is rare but worth the effort :)
7:10 PM
@TylerH Given its age/views/popularity, shouldn't that have been locked, instead of closed? I mean, I can vote to delete it now, which seems odd.
Is this an answer?
@cigien Funnily, age/views/popularity is not a quality that prevents deletion ;)
And that's by design, otherwise the system wouldn't allow you to.
@Yatin It will require the maximum amount of delete votes, though (capped at 10, IIRC) ... unless a Diamond Geezer casts one.
@Braiam Right, but I don't think this post should be deleted. I also don't think it should accept new answers. Isn't that what locks are for?
@Yatin Not really. It hints there might be an answer if he replies to support, but that's not the same thing
7:19 PM
@cigien It can be both closed and locked ... which seems about right for that one.
@TylerH Take that, bad question!
@cigien Closing is the preamble for deletion. If you don't believe it should be deleted (which is the logical conclusion to the closing because "this question shouldn't have been asked"), then you believe it should be open.
Otherwise, we would never delete bad examples
@Machavity thank you :)
@Braiam I disagree. Sometimes closing is a preamble for deletion but not always. A well-asked (and well-answered) Question that is later identified as a duplicate should not be deleted. If nothing else, it will serve as a good signpost.
@AdrianMole If there was no locking... what would have been the conclusion? (Remember, locking was added later, and Tim itself said that it was a temporary solution)
7:23 PM
@Machavity wait a minute, which answer did I link? I think I linked a different one
@Braiam Not exactly. There are old questions that I think shouldn't have been asked (and if they were asked today, I would vote to close and delete). But now that they've been asked, and have received good answers, and are clearly helpful to a lot of people, I don't think they should be deleted either.
@cigien "good answers"? Which?
Also, the criteria for what defines on/off topic have changed since the Old Days.
@Braiam Do you mean on the post that we're discussing? I meant generally. I'd be happy to look up an example, I've bookmarked a couple.
@cigien ^^^^
7:25 PM
A quote from where?
Locking as tool, is flawed in implementation and usage.
@Yatin anyways is this one an answer?
Locking was meant to be a temporary inbetween when we move information towards a more appropriated medium, not just kicking the can down the proverbial road indefinitely
@cigien Well, it's opinion-based, so it should be closed. It should be locked if people keep attempting to reopen it, or if it has enough value that it should stay on the site, but people keep deleting/undeleting it.
@Yatin ^^ sorry there was a different link in my clipboard
7:28 PM
There are more than the issue of loosing just content when deleting a post. Some users use the information from the post over and over. They have links to it. They go it when they need to. When those posts are deleted, the users will probably have a bad day and then spend time trying to find something similar. And rely a little less on Stack Overflow. It may not seem like a big deal, but I think it is. I think it's damaging to the site.
But more to the point @cigien, good answers should be kept, only if you can also ask a good question. Otherwise, there's no good answers, just crap that someone needs to deal with.
Wait I am super confused ... someone please tell me which link is opening when you press the above text (sorry to barge in an on going conversation)
@Yatin your last link is to a currently-deleted answer. Users with less than 10k reputation will click it and go to the top of the question page because they cannot see deleted posts (so the anchor link "#...." will not resolve, and thus be ignored)
Is it linking to this or this
Btw, this is an almost 10 years discussion which SE could solve it in one stroke: making locking a self expiring measure.
7:30 PM
@TylerH Ok, that makes sense. So I suppose there's no need to lock it because it's unlikely that enough users will vote to delete?
I am stupid. Did I ever mention that before?
@Yatin We're all stupid.. :)
@Yatin Wait, there are smart people on SO? Besides Jon Skeet...
@Machavity I don't think so.. :) Jon is the only one ;)
Thank you @TylerH I already knew that fact. I am dumb enough to not realize that tabs need to be reloaded sometimes and that it was the same question.
7:40 PM
Actually, the surname, "Skeet," is a strange corruption of the plural form of an ancient proto-Nordic term meaning stupid. (Little-know fact, that, but there ya go!)
How very.. unexpected :)
Adrian is Skeet shooting
@Machavity What? Shooting myself in the Sock?
I had a NAA flag declined twice, which makes me think I have a misunderstanding of the NAA rules. It was my understanding that technically correct answers that don't relate to the technology should be flagged—i.e., the "apples to oranges" scenario. Am I misunderstanding? (I rarely use NAA for this purpose, but do occasionally.)
(In this case, the question is explicitly about Notepad++ on Windows, but the answer suggests a command line option on Linux. That seems apples-to-oranges to me.)
@JeremyCaney Unfortunately.. it does say in one guideline to flag those, but in another it says not to.. All fruits are apples. This is just a wrong Answer. Even if it's not even wrong.
7:49 PM
this triggered the queen
Were my comments incorrect?
@HovercraftFullOfEels nope
@Yatin Thanks for the feecback
@Scratte Metaphors are very hard to make useful, and I'm completely unsatisfied with the apples one in that post. I mean, none of them are apples anyway (see my gravatar for an explanation) ;)
@Scratte: Aha, I'll defer to the conservative read then, and not flag oranges; thank you. (I like oranges.)
@cigien But one of them is a picture of a picture of an Apple.. and that's the one to look for :D
7:53 PM
@Scratte :D
@πάνταῥεῖ Incorrect dupe here Can you reopen? I lost my hammer on this one.
@cigien: Well, it's not just that the metaphor is confusing. @CodyGray gives similar advice on When should I flag an answer? "That includes answers that are completely irrelevant to the question (e.g., … because they refer to an entirely different programming language than the question is about)." This seemed to fall squarely into that case.
@JeremyCaney I sympathize completely. I haven't gotten the hang of NAA myself, and now I only flag when they are obviously NAA. What I mean by that is, if the answer has anything to do with programming at all, I don't risk it.
I do flag if several users in this room concur though :)
8:08 PM
@cigien: Yeah, I usually use NAA exclusively for the obvious cases. I don't have too many declined flags (7 out of 2,278), but that's because I'm really conservative. In fact, if anything, I'm far more annoyed that so many people ignore the plea for sanity in the Low Quality Posts queue; I see short, code-only, or partial answers marked for deletion all the time.
This is how I usually judge NAAs:
1) Answerer has made an attempt but it is completely wrong (technically) - Not flaggable
2) Answerer has made an attempt but it is link-only/code-only - politely hit them with a canned comment to add some details. VLQ/NAA flaggable (debatable area)
3) Link-only answer by very low rep user linking to a product/service with no affliation declared - potential spam, inform at charcoal (not here)
4) There was an attempt but they misunderstood the question -not flaggable
@Yatin: Well, this one pretty clearly falls within #6, so that doesn't seem to be correct (anymore).
@Yatin: I am curious about #5. The duplicate answers really get under my skin, and especially when they duplicate a highly ranked, accepted answer. It's just careless, and adds noise to the site. But it is my understanding that duplicate answers should not be flagged. (I always call them out on it in a comment, but I don't flag them.)
@cigien It's already reopened, someone else did. Though I don't fully understand, the 2nd answer of my duplicate target, exactly covered the OPs case, no?
8:24 PM
@JeremyCaney No.. another spoken language. Like Russian or Hindi :)
@JeremyCaney I have done exactly what I said sometimes... None of those flags of mine have been rejected but I didn't follow the answers to see what happened to them
@JeremyCaney #4 not #6 even if it is in another programming language it is still unfortunately considered an attempt so, not flaggable
@πάνταῥεῖ No I don't think so. OP wants to instantiate a new type, and return an object of that, with a modified non-type template parameter. The dupe doesn't show how to do that.
@cigien Ah, OK. Maybe I've been looking too superficial. Well, shit happens, but fortunately can be easily fixed with the help of peers ;-)
@JeremyCaney I think that Cody would remove the post and mark your flag helpful, but not everyone does. The post also says "Do not flag answers because of technical issues. Moderators do not judge technical correctness." and while you can clearly see that it's an Answer to a completely different Question, not everyone may be able to. Some say that if an Answer can answer any Question, not necessarily the one it's on, then it's not NAA.
@πάνταῥεῖ No problem :) Though, I've noticed that while users will voice disagreement with dupe closures in comments, they often won't actually vote to reopen. I suspect there's a bias to not go against gold-hammer decisions, which is unfortunate :(
8:32 PM
@cigien That's the problem with being a God or Goddess, it's secluded in the sky ;-P
@cigien It also requires 250 reputation points to vote on one's own post. See view close votes
@Scratte There are enough regulars who could vote to reopen, it just takes 3.
@πάνταῥεῖ If only they realized that we're only human. Well, some of us at least ;)
@πάνταῥεῖ Yes, of course. But the most noisy users seems to be authors :)
@Scratte It's not about the OP voting. Take the post πάνταῥεῖ and I are talking about. There was a comment pointing out the incorrect closure, and 2-3 upvotes on the comment, but not a single reopen vote.
8:38 PM
@cigien Since I discovered I could search google with that site:<specific_SE_site> restriction, it feels like I've been armed with a phaser. Formerly I mostly used my bookmarks (favorites) list (more like a shot charger).
@cigien I see. Honestly.. that's would I would do too. If I'd even comment to the fact. I feel kind of helpless in the close / reopen war. Obviously I don't have reputation to do it, but I'm not even sure I'd bother to try to fight it. I've seen a lot of those comments also saying "I've cast a reopen vote".. and then.. nothing.
Dragging my hat mylady @dalija
8:55 PM
9:13 PM
@Scratte Does this happen for posts you see in queues, or on tags you watch? Which would be primarily Java, correct?
@Scratte If you see a closure / reopen war you can mod flag and ask for locking.
@cigien No. I see it on old closed post with a high'ish score.
@Scratte May I ask at which timezone you're living? (unrelated to the current discussion)
@πάνταῥεῖ I think I'm in Berlin. But I'm not very fuzzed about keeping my bedtime.
@πάνταῥεῖ It's a war even when nothing happens :) It's a closure and users saying it shouldn't have happened. I suppose I called it a war when it's more like accepting the situation and not trying to fight it even if one thinks it's wrong.
@Scratte You think you're in Berlin? ;) Why would you be unsure about that?
9:22 PM
@cigien The Berlin timezone ;) Why do you want to know my timezone? :)
@Scratte Oh, right :)
@Scratte "But I'm not very fuzzed about keeping my bedtime." XD That's why I asked, I#ve seen you (at least) today in the very early morning (~7:00am), but also even earlier (~3:00am)
@Scratte I don't :) That was πάνταῥεῖ asking :p
Wondered when you're sleeping
@πάνταῥεῖ Nothing wrong with checking up on Stack when going for a mid sleep snack, is there? :)
9:23 PM
@cigien Sorry.. :) I didn't expect you to reply to me replying to πάνταῥεῖ :)
@πάνταῥεῖ So you're at the same timezone?
@Scratte Munich (Rosenheim precisely)
@πάνταῥεῖ So same timezone.. and also not keeping your bedtime, or having snacks in the middle of the night, just like me :)
@Scratte Well, I used to get up at ~7:00am, and now it's 6:00am :P. And I'm also often around here long after midnight ;)
9:30 PM
That is a bit early. But it's nice and quiet in the city early in the morning :)
So, am I bad if I point out that an accepted Answer on a closed post is probably wrong?
@Scratte You're gonna do that for all of them?
@AdrianMole The solution on this particular post was wrong ;)
You can downvote it and/or leave a comment. If relevant, you could even do a [del-pls] in here.
I just put a comment. I expect they will fix it.. if not it will be there until someone decides to delete the Question, as the Answer is accepted.
10:00 PM
@Scratte No, if it's well justifyable.
@desertnaut Are you just exercising a new canned comment? ;-)
@AdrianMole just trying to do my best :)
NP - You got three of my remaining CVs.
@AdrianMole 3 out of how many remaining? :)
10:04 PM
5, beforehand.
The first line of this answer should be removed, right?
@cigien Hmmm ... I'll "Take the fifth" on that one!
@AdrianMole :) I'm removing it. Seems like noise to me.
@DavidBuck I was just typing this! ;)
@cigien It seems there should be some disclaimer in the answer to say that it doesn't actually answer the question (see also the comment on the answer)
10:14 PM
@desertnaut One person's opinion that IDLE is good for Python, and a spammy NATO didn't seem worth keeping
@Nick Agreed. Edited. Is it better now?
@cigien looks great.
10:35 PM
@πάνταῥεῖ I checked it. It doesn't work :)
10:48 PM
Hehe ... Thought I'd take a pop at the Triage Queue, and this was my first hit!
@AdrianMole That is very odd.. I would have expected the text to be presented as text as well.
Good job I checked the link, huh?
But it seems to have brought in some OK Answers.
@AdrianMole good job indeed - that's a question which would have got closed very quickly these days
@Nick I've set myself up to 'automatically' check the link before making any judgment.
10:56 PM
@Nick "Asked 13 days ago"
But looking at the image, there's really nothing interesting on it that's not in the title or the body.
Should it be reported on Meta as a Poor Audit? (That would, no doubt, summon the Meta-Effect and pile on downvotes.)
And the title makes is very easily searchable.
@AdrianMole I wouldn't. I don't see it's doing any harm really. Searchable title, and I'm pretty sure anyone getting this error won't have more to add anyway.
Not my field, so not really my concern.
@Scratte wow - I looked at it and misread the 14 as being the year, not the day of the month because my brain said there was no way a question like that could remain open these days...
let alone get 34 upvotes...
It does seem odd that the question gets 34 upvotes but the answers got a sum total of 1. Sock puppets?
11:08 PM
What question are we talking about?
My button says no
The computer says no
Strange nonetheless...
There's no sign of voting fraud. I assume a lot of people are facing the same problem
I'm reviewing first posts. Saw this one: stackoverflow.com/a/6790760/697188 Shows research, well written. But then asks kind of a dumb question that could have been easily answered by just trying it. In Triage I'd flag it. In First Posts what do I do? Still just down vote, add a comment and move along? Or go ahead and flag it as well.
11:15 PM
Could it be an audit?
Oh let me check, thx
No looks new, 37 mins ago
You linked to a 9 year old answer
Well, that was dumb. Here it is. stackoverflow.com/questions/64563925/…
I shouldn't say there's evidence of research. Evidence of educated guessing
If you would flag it in Triage, then you should flag it in First Posts. After all, it's the same post with the same problems, is not?
Sounds good to me. For some reason I never really did First Post Reviews much. Just jumped into Triage. Now when I go into First Post queue, I find myself down voting and flagging so much. Do I need to do both? Or just flag
11:21 PM
@Nick Imagine lots of users getting this problem and finding the post.. but before Answers came in on it.
@MichaelWelch I'd say a downvote would be warranted given that this is a simple question and poorly written, but it is your decision how you vote. I don't think the question deserves to be closed. I guess a simple answer can be provided. You can comment and move on, or just skip.
@MichaelWelch Flagging and downvoting seems ok. If you want to get better in reviewing I am sure we have more useful information on Meta Stack Overflow
Downvoting alongside close flagging/voting is up to you. Generally, though, if a question from a new user already has one or two downvotes, then adding more isn't really helpful, and can come across as unfriendly or harsh.
@MichaelWelch There's no research at all - all they had to do was type the code in and run it and they would have seen they were correct. RTFM'ing would have yielded a similar result. I vtc'd and downvoted.
11:23 PM
@Nick Yeah, I corrected myself later
Let me remind everyone that lack of effort is not a suitable close reason
... further, if a question gets closed and then OP edits it into good shape, even if it is then reopened, starting on a score of (say) -8 is a long way to come back from.
@Scratte Fair comment - but is that question really that useful? Turns out it had between 11 and 17 upvotes before the first answer.
@Dharman yes, thanks for the links. I've spent time reading but never actually have discussed any of this with anyone. have plenty of questions. You seem to suggest flagging/close is too harsh. I got a suspension for a Looks Ok and when I asked about it the popular answer was that no good useful answer could be given. So it should be closed. So I view lots of questions thru that lens now
That is good lens.
It's actually very similar to how I view questions. "Could there be valuable answers added?" If not then it probably should be closed.
11:27 PM
ok, so your comment "lack of effort is not a suitable close reason" didn't necessarily apply to this question. Just something to keep in mind
In this case, closing the question was not a terrible choice, but in general we do not close questions becaue they are too simple or there is no effort.
@Dharman but if we don't close it, how will you delete it? :)
Or read it like this: I would not vote to close that question, but I am not going to contest its closure either.
@Nick The thing about this is that there's noway to know. It could be 47 friends all voting for this one post, but unless there's a way to link from some other event, mere mortals have no way to find out. If you find a post that you think is off, you can always to hunting for other posts. If they all have a lot of strange votes, then maybe there's a pattern.
@Nick Another thing to notice about such things like score is: How can any post be worthy of 12597 upvotes? No matter how stellar a post is, does any post really need that many votes to stay on top of the others?
On that note, I really need to reduce my activity on Stack Overflow. For two reasons: 1. I have other stuff I need to attend to and SO is very distracting. 2. I lost my browsing history in recent PC issues and digging it all up is going to be a long task.
11:31 PM
@Scratte you're right. I was just commenting on something I found odd.
@Scratte I don't think it's a question of "need", it's just that 12597 (probably a lot more) users found it useful. I've upvoted answers that have hundreds of votes already
@Nick Funny. I tend to go: Hmm.. yes, OK, that was useful, but really? I find lots of others posts just as useful sitting at 0 or 1.
2 Upvotes on a closed question?
That seems pretty sus
@Dharman It's always frustrating to loose such information. If you feel that you need to be doing other things, then real world issues should win. It will, however, be unfortunate for SO if you need to reduce your involvement.
@Makyen Hello.
While you are here
Would it be possible for you to check who upvoted that question?
Maybe perform a sockpuppet check
@Spectric I upvote closed posts all the time. What's strange about it? It's a duplicate. Do you think it's a bad post on it's won merit?
11:38 PM
I am not planning on stopping all together, but I need to spend slightly less time on SO pages and more in IDE.
@Spectric No. That is not possible. Moderators do not get that information.
Ah, ok.
I did not know that before.
In the past 48h I only cast 2 delete votes
Also, I know it's kind of late, but congrats on winning in the mod election :)
Thank you.
11:40 PM
@Scratte those ones at 0 and 1 are all mine :)
@Spectric Just FYI: the rules for SOCVR are that we try to avoid "oneboxes", which is the formatting this originally had. You can prevent that by including anything else in your chat message in addition to the URL. For more detail, please see our FAQ.
@Dharman who are you and what have you done with Dharman?
@Dharman I'm glad to hear that you're not going away completely. However, it is quite understandable that you need to take more time for other concerns.
@Makyen I'll keep that in mind.
Thanks for kind words
@Spectric My magic button again says no. :D although it's not always right
11:46 PM
@Nick Heh.. Yes, I can see your struggle while going for your next privilege ;)
