Theory on the Origin of Orcs

Seth Bartley

New Member
Sorry, I'm still a few episodes behind y'all and this is my first post, apologies if it's in the wrong place.

Perhaps the torture of the Elves by Morgoth broke them not only physically but spiritually.
Elves, we have seen, exist simultaneously in the physical and the wraith 'worlds'.

This would sound to me like an unspeakable horror of Melkor to inflict; ripping whatever the elf version of a soul is right from their corporeal bodies. Then discarding of the useless divine parts (where did they go? Valinor? Or perhaps those too were forged into horrors. Tortured wraith spirits like the barrow wights forcibly infused into unnatural things.) (oh my, stuffing a tourtured elf spirit into a human corpse sounds just sadistic.)

Therefore, the Orcs might the soulless biological halves of those broken elves.
The soulless meat-creatures could then breed and ‘beget’ more of their kind.

(much like the dwarves before they were granted souls)
(Hey, who was Sauron’s Valar boss again? Coincidence? Maybe Sauron used his knowledge of this to help Morgoth reverse engineer and “deconstruct” the elves to create his own meat puppets.)

Now this does not come from the text, it is pure extrapolation.
It does stay true to the two principles: All things are created good, Evil cannot create.
It also is gruesome enough to explain the lack of published detail ‘He did unspeakable things.’
And I think it is in keeping with Tolkien's other theories (or at least I hope non-contradictory to them).

Seth Bartley

New Member
also isn't Melkor credited with the creation of Dragons Ogres, goblins Trolls and the like? whats the problem with Orcs being in the list?
now i know he considered Orcs and Goblins the same this,
and weren't Ogres corrupted twisted Dwarves?
I see no one arguing if Dragons have souls, dragons even talk. Were they corrupted beings? or constructed monstrosities?
Do we care if trolls have souls? their clearly evil, but hey, they just want some tasty meals.

(one of the things i did like in the Jackson film was the Cave troll in Moria. They showed that goblins had captured and tortured it; forcing the creature to fight for them. Mutilating him into a weapon, a tool. Poor guy didn't really want to fight.)


Active Member
This accords with my head-canon, which is that Morgoth used his twisted version of Námo's power to call Elven fëar to him—wrenching them out of their hröar, or maybe just torturing them until they fled—and then replaced them with spirits that he had called out of the void. What might make it darker would be if some of those Elven fëar turned out to be among the twisted spirits he used later…

I also suggest that there are parallels between "Ent—Huorn—Tree" and "Werewolf—Warg—Wolf", but I don't think there's an equivalent for Orcs.


Well-Known Member
We've talked this so often on this board, still it'll always come back.As it to be expected since he does not solve it in his stories.

Tolkien himself stated he knew not exactly how Orcs were made but he discussed several theories without finally settling on a single one.

I believe he discarded Orcs being just soulless constructs or mere beasts.Fallen Ainu spirits, either from the Void or from his own retinue are a possibility for some of the greater Orc generals,he discussed Boldog beimg such a demon and maybe others of his kindred ,but not the lesser or common ones.He was torn between the Orcs being descendants of corrupted men or descendants of corrupted orcs or maybe a bit of both.

As far as i recall...