Tech Wellness - Podcast 2022-06-14T15:15:05-07:00 Tech Wellness 2022-06-14T15:15:05-07:00 2022-06-16T13:10:25-07:00 Thriving with Technology Podcast: Johnny Depp's Metadata Expert Bryan Neumeister. Our Exclusive Conversation about What Really Happened at the Depp Heard Trial August Brice

Available here too:


 Bryan Nuemeister Johnny Depp Heard Trial

Millions of people around the world tuned in online to witness the drama that was the defamation trial of Johnny Depp and Amber Heard.  

Bryan has been our Tech Wellness cyber security and online privacy expert for a number of years and he agreed to join us on Thriving With Technology to share some behind the scenes information about his experience as an expert witness during the trial. You'll be amazed when you hear about Johnny and Bryan's interaction before his testimony!

Newsweek posted that Bryan's testimony was the second most important moment of the trial, right behind Depp talking about losing the tip of his finger! 
Bryan also uses his decades of experience to give us tips on how to keep our pictures, text messages and all of our onlife, as safe as they can possibly be.  


More about Bryan Neumeister

Bryan is a true renaissance man who has not only explored multiple career paths, but risen to the top in each. He’s been a television journalist, a helicopter photographer, a celebrated music writer and remarkably is now applying his video skills to the world of criminal forensics. 

In a career spanning 37 years across 23 countries, Bryan has racked up an incredible 39 Emmy Awards and 70+ awards for his video work. As if that weren’t enough, these days he is also a court certified video & photographic forensic expert. Clarifying videos in criminal, civil, military and aviation cases so that jurors can see and hear evidence better.


Content of This Podcast:

00:00 - Intro

02:32 - Bryan Background

04:02 - Sound from Trial: “These aren’t photos.”

08:42 - Jury Fatigue

10:17 - How Heard’s Team Failed Her With The Digital Pictures

11:49 - Heard’s Lawyer Asking Unanswerable Questions

19:03 - Two Separate Exhibits That Are The Exact Same Photo (with color changes)

20:58 - What To Do To Preserve Something On Your Phone For Legal Reasons

28:31 - Why You Want A VPN

32: 20 - How To Properly Back Up Your Phone

42:00 - What to Use for Messaging on Your Phone

43:39 - Wrap Up and More Recommendations

Here are some useful links for the items we discuss in the episode:


]]> 2022-02-04T22:29:50-08:00 2022-06-14T14:48:13-07:00 Thriving with Technology: She Won The Science Fair--And My Heart--With An Experiment about EMF's August Brice

Available here too:


I had the honor of connecting with the most incredible family.

Although they have gone through unspeakable hardship and loss, they graciously opened up their story to me in this week’s podcast.

I am so grateful I was able to speak to Kristine and her brilliant daughter Avila about her winning science fair project that was inspired by her dad’s battle with brain cancer and has led to them sharing the lessons learned about the effects of radiation.

Here are some photos from their experiment: 




Join Kristine on Instagram and follow her inspirational journey:

Instagram:  @lovekristinenicole

Her website:

Do the experiment yourself with our Science Fair Kit

Here's our Science Fair Kit that includes one of our top EMF Meters and organic microgreens--everything you need for your own home experiment to see the effects of EMF.



Visit for more ways to live in balance with technology.

Be Well!

August Brice 

Here's the full transcript of the podcast: 


August Brice: Hi, and welcome to Thriving With Technology, the podcast from Tech Wellness, I'm August

August Brice: And when I do have my technology with me, like today, it is on airplane mode. And if you haven't tried that, try downloading this podcast right now and playing it back on airplane mode and avoiding all of the wireless energy. It's a great way to really use our technology. I'm going to introduce you to a mom and daughter today and their science fair project and not just any science fair project, but the winning the science fair project. And it's all about EMFs, electromagnetic fields, that invisible wireless energy I was just talking about.

August Brice: Now, I first learned about Kristine and Avila Mauss when Kristine tagged me.  She tagged me in a post to show me this winning science fair project. She'd received a meter from Tech Wellness, and that is how they monitored the EMF and the lack of EMF on the microgreens that Avila grew for the science project. And I was so impressed that a young person had chosen this topic for their project. I reached out to them and thought this would be a great podcast. What I didn't know at the time was the backstory. The backstory is a tragic one. Just months before Avila had lost her father, Kristine, her husband, to brain cancer, a healthy, vibrant, fabulous man gone because of brain cancer. You are going to hear about their journey. You are going to hear about how their lives have changed because of the science fair project. And I hope, like me, you'll be encouraged that we need to continue to spread the news about the potential dangers of electromagnetic fields. Say hello now to Kristine and Avila.

August Brice: Okay, so first of all, I want to know what on earth made to decide to do this as your science experiment, Avila?

Avila Mauss: Well, I remember because my dad was dealing with brain cancer and he had proton radiation to reduce his tumor. And I remember the doctors talking about how proton radiation can reduce the tumor, but it can also cause cancer. So I wanted to know like, does WiFi radiation or the strong type of radiation really cause cancer or defects in people?

August Brice: Wow, do you want to talk about your dad and talk about-

Avila Mauss: Sure.

August Brice: Yeah, tell me a little bit about what the process was and what happened with your dad.

Avila Mauss: So he had a seizure at work and they found a softball-sized tumor in his brain, so they removed that. He had few complications with surgeries and they ended up doing proton radiation and that's just where you're laying on the bed, and they zap this beam into your head to help reduce the tumor. And then he did chemo and stuff like that. He ended up passing away a couple months ago, but...

August Brice: I am so sorry. I just... My heart breaks for you and your family. And I just... sadly brain cancer is becoming more and more  common now, you know?

Avila  Yeah.

August Brice: That type of cancer and that prognosis and it's...

Kristine And brain cancer is one of those things, not only is it increasing in such a-

August Brice: Dramatically

Kristine Mauss: ... dramatic way, but the life expectancy is so short. I mean, most people with my husband's... He did not have glioblastoma. It was a step down from that, but even then, not only once you start messing with the brain, everything just kind of is never really the same, but brain cancer in and of itself is such an unknown cancer. There's not a lot of research. It has one of the lowest life expectancies of all cancers and so with all of these things out there that are unknown, that we experience that we're just walking in radiation waves all the time. And like what Avila said is that one of these side effects of not only traditional radiation, but also a more vocalized proton radiation, one of those side effects is cancer. I mean, she was 12, now 13, at the time thinking, wait a minute, as a rational human being, if these things, yes, it does help, but if it also causes harm and radiation is not just in this particular treatment, it's in other things as well-

Avila  Yeah.

Kristine  ... that we're exposed to.

August Brice: That's really brilliant you to make the connection. There's research and the expert on my site, Dr. George Carlo, did research over 25 years ago connecting cell phone radiation to gliomas. It's not something that probably is the only cause, but we certainly know that there is a biological effect from the radiation. And I think this amazing science study that you did and winning the science fair with it really shows that there's a biological connection. So when you thought about doing this project, just tell me, how did you go about it? And how come up with putting in the plants, the microgreens, and just tell me step by step how you concepted this and how you did it.

Avila  So the first thing I did is I wanted to see if plants were really similar to the brain, because I wanted to find something that would be extremely similar to our brains, so I wouldn't try to get the calculations wrong. So I did some research and plants and seeds actually have a connection in molecules and neurons to our brain. So that's why I chose plants. And-

August : Tell me more about that.

Avila , these scientists did a study back in 2015 where they wanted to compare the brain to plants to see if they have any genetic similarities. So they did the mapping and it shows that we have very similar cell pathways and neuron pathways, and that was really cool to see. So-

August Brice: It just made sense, right

Avila Mauss: Yeah. Yeah, it made really sense to do plants. And then what I did is I used your broadband detector and I walked it around my house, because I wanted to see where the point in our home where there was the least amount of WiFi radiation detected. So I ended up walking through my house and I found that it was in one of our bedrooms and I placed a couple... Seed trays

Kristine  They were microgreens that take about 7 to 10 days to grow, so we knew that the growing time was going to be quick enough to be able to study them. And they grew from seeds to approximately two or three inches within 10 days. They were just microgreens you could harvest and eat. And yeah, so Avila decided to use these particular fast-growing plants based off another study that was done a number of years ago. I believe it was a middle school had researched growth on full size plants. I can't remember what that was, but you chose to place some near our WiFi router.

Kristine Mauss: Some in this particular spot. Was anything else different? Was the lighting the same? Did you use different lighting? What about temperature? These sorts of things.

Avila Mauss: The temperature is pretty similar because I did it all upstairs. We made sure the temperature was just the exact same. And I used the same lighting, so I had grow lights next to the plants so that the lighting wouldn't affect the equations.

Kristine Mauss: The growth. Yeah, the variables.

Avila Mauss: Yeah, the growth. Yeah, the variables.

August Brice: And so you had these grow lights, the exact same grow lights in both places?

Avila Mauss: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah.

August Brice: And exactly in the same space next to the microgreens?

Avila Mauss: Yes. Yeah.

August Brice: Oh wow, that's fascinating. You really thought this out.

Avila Mauss: Yeah.

August Brice: Hey and I'm curious, were they on a window sill, or were they in a naturally dark place? What was the space like?

Avila  The space for the greens in the bedroom, I did not place on a window sill. I placed it in a corner because when I checked up on the window sill, it still showed pretty bad signals, if that makes sense, I guess.

August Brice: With the radiation detector?

Avila Yeah, with the radiation detector, it showed orange. So, like-

Kristine Mauss: You wanted to find place that was green with the detector that there was no...

Avila Mauss: Yeah.

August Brice: I'm just curious, now let's get back to the radiation coming up from the window. So this is in the room where there wasn't WiFi. This was in the safest part of your home.

Avila  Right. Yes. Yeah.

August : And still, sitting at the window, you had a high level?

Avila  Mm-hmm (affirmative).

August: Okay. Where did you think that was coming from?

Avila Well, we have stuff in our garage that could be using WiFi and that could signal up through maybe the floor. And so I just wanted to find a place where I knew it would be safe. I walked around with it in that one corner just to make sure none of the variables changed.

August  And so it was green there. And then the one that was by the WiFi, what did the meter read there?

Avila It was flashing red.

August: It was the worst.


August : That's off the charts. If it's flashing red, it doesn't go any higher.

Avila Mauss: And me and my mom were just playing with it and we went through each room and her had flashing 10, flashing lights and mine had flashing lights.

Kristine Mauss: What happened when you were... because you took pictures each day. You went to the corner where there was no radiation detected, but you had the phone on and what did you notice with the detector?

Avila Mauss: So I wanted to take a picture of the detector with the plants, just as a side picture for fun, and all of a sudden I saw the meter started going up to red. And so I put the phone down and I thought it was broken. I was tapping with it, and then I'm like, okay, I'll just try a picture again. And I did it and it started flashing red again. And I brought the meter closer to the phone, and... didn't we try it with AirPods too?

Kristine Mauss: No. What happened when you pulled the phone away to check the meter?

Avila Mauss: Oh, it went green.

August Brice: Oh, there you go.

Avila Mauss: The meter went green.

August Brice: Isn't it amazing how much RF radiation is around the house in so many different devices and items? You don't even think about it, right?

Avila Mauss: Yeah.

August Brice: It's crazy. And so that's our RF radiation. Radio frequency radiation. And did you notice it? I love that example. Did you see that anywhere else now that you've got the meter?

Avila Mauss: We saw it definitely in a couple bedrooms and near our television and in some different places in our home that I never expect it to be.

August Brice: That darn smart TV, right?

Avila Mauss: Yeah. Yeah.

August Brice: It's crazy. You don't know how many times I have tried to take the little screws off the back of the TV and find that antenna. I'm not even getting... My husband thinks I'm crazy. Well, I am. I really, really like a no EMF environment. So now when the TV isn't on, it's completely unplugged.

Avila Mauss: Wow.

August Brice: That's all we can do.

Avila Mauss: Yeah.

August Brice: Otherwise, it's always emitting something, some signal. It's looking around. So anyway, back to your experiment. So what happened day 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10?

Avila Mauss: So day one and two, I didn't notice very significant change with the plants in the bedroom and then the plants next to the router. I did see they were butting just a little bit since that was normal. And then day three, four, and five, I saw that the plants in the corner were growing and growing pretty sufficiently. And then the ones near the router were just a little bit shorter, like they were trying to catch up. And then day, I think it's six, seven, eight. It took me 10 days to do so, six, seven, eight, nine, and ten, I kept seeing the plants in the bedroom, they were growing really well and very sufficiently. And the ones next to the WiFi router, they were dead. They just had stopped.

Kristine Mauss: What about the dead spots? Do you remember your statistics about the number of dead spots? You had three different trays-

Avila Mauss: Yes.

Kristine Mauss: ... in each, so it wasn't just one tray. We had three different trays with all the same microgreens. Do you remember number of dead spots in the plants near the router versus the others?

Avila Mauss: Yes, so the number of dead spots on day 10 in the bedroom was three, and then the number of dead spots next to the WiFi router, I think it was 27.

August Brice: Oh my goodness.

Avila Mauss: Yeah.

August Brice: Wow.

Avila Mauss: Yeah.

August Brice: What were you thinking in your mind as you were seeing this every day?

Avila Mauss: I'm just like, guys, we can't go near this thing. It's so scary.

Kristine Mauss: We definitely did not eat those microgreens.

Avila Mauss: No.

August Brice: I am so glad [crosstalk 00:14:54]. Wow, and so let's just be really specific, they both got the same amount of water.

Avila Mauss: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

August Brice: They both, if you talked to your plants, you talked to both the same way.

Avila Mauss: Yes.

August Brice: Okay, you encouraged them to grow.

Avila Mauss: Yes, I did.

August Brice: And so as you went in there, did you say, "Oh my gosh, what's happening to the planet?"

Avila Mauss: Yeah.

August Brice: Did you know it had to be the WiFi?

Avila Mauss: I did.

August Brice: Wow.

Avila Mauss: Yeah.

August Brice: Wow. When you presented this at school and there will be pictures throughout this, by the way, so we'll come back and we'll cover it with your photos and all the great pictures you have. Avila, when you presented this at the science fair, what was the reaction from people?

Avila Mauss: So at lunchtime, before the actual science fair in the evening, we had our whole, like all the little kids come walk through and all the teenagers of the higher grades come walk through of all me and all my other friends' and classmates' science fair projects, just asking questions. All the little kids would just come and be so excited to see. And I remember there were tons of teenagers and moms and all the moms were like, "Oh, you can't have your phone anymore. You can't sleep with it anymore." All the kids were like, "Thanks a lot, Avila." Like, in a joking way. But all the little kids were so fascinated. I just remember getting a lot of reactions from people, just being like, "Oh wow, we're sleeping with this. We're around this 24/7."

August Brice: Can you imagine all of the awareness that you created and the change because of it? Oh my goodness. That's amazing. Congratulations.

Avila Mauss: Thank you.

August Brice: I'm just, I am thrilled. I was thrilled when I saw this, but to hear what everyone was saying.

Avila Mauss: Yeah.

August Brice: Are they still talking about it? It's been a couple of months now.

Avila Mauss: Not as much now, but I do think... I know there are a couple moms from our community that have taken it into awareness quite a bit. Yeah.

Kristine Mauss: Even just... yeah.

August Brice: At Your house, how have things changed?

Kristine Mauss:

  • Well, probably a month or so prior to this experiment, we did the Tech Wellness WiFi kill switch at night and did notice a difference in our sleep. So plug it in, remote it off at night.
  • I definitely have taken more of an active effort to put my phone on airplane mode whenever... if I'm not using it.
  • I do have the stand that you so graciously sent me. I love that thing. I use my phone on a stand with the stylus pen. I notice my fingers aren't getting tingly when I'm... that is so incredible, just these little things that don't affect in the immediate, but would over time.
  • We had some things here. There was a laptop sleeve and a phone sleeve that I thought were radiation proof. And we tested it with the meter and we're like, "Okay, they're not doing anything!!" Keep our phone inside here and... I thought, oh, well, if it's closed, I'm good. But no, it was doing nothing.

August Brice.  Yes and if you had the pro meter we sell, with the numeric readout you would see that the emissions may have been even higher.

Krisitne Mauss: Wow, because the case is closed and the phone isn't getting signal?

August Brice: That's exactly it. You're shutting off part of its source of life. It reacts, it gets mad, and it just wants more and more and more. And so, because the cases don't cover completely because of course, if they did, the phone wouldn't work at all, so it leaves that exposed area to reflect more energy. So yeah, it's a myth. There's a lot of myths out there about what to do about this radiation. And I love that you're doing exactly what you should do and that is turn things off. It's our absolute best defense is to get away from the waves. And Avila, you might have seen from your meters, as you get closer to the source, it gets higher, right?

Avila Mauss: Yeah.

August Brice: As you get further away, it gets lower. So have you noticed that?

Avila Mauss: Yeah, I have noticed that a lot. It's just so crazy how these invisible waves going through the air, you don't really care about them. You hear the word WiFi and you just think something that helps me connect to the Internet or download something, but you don't really think, oh, a deadly radiation waves that could kill you. So it's just amazing what we don't know.

August Brice: Did you talk to anyone about the comparison of the proton radiation that you were talking about, the treatments for your dad and this radio frequency radiation? Did you look into that?

Avila Mauss: Didn't we look into that a little bit?

Kristine Mauss: Probably not. Not too extensively.

Avila Mauss: Yeah. Not too much, but...

August Brice: And it is different. It's a strong form, of course, because it can do good. It can destroy things like tumors, which is awesome, but they're in the same family and that's why they're called radiation. One's not ionizing, and they always thought that that non-ionizing radiation had absolutely no effect on the body, but there are thousands of studies now that correlate. And I always think of it as just another toxin, like chlorine bleach or something, that my body has to deal with. So when you were talking about your dad and your husband, Kristine, it's just one more thing that our bodies have to fight, like you said, football player, probably head injuries and genetic components. There's so many things that we don't know, and so it's just, I think, one way to be a little bit safer. Now, it's not about really avoiding technology because I'm sure you guys are realized. You probably love technology and continue to enjoy it.

Kristine : Yeah. Right. Yeah, no, it's like you hear the story, you never buy the first year of a new car. You don't know what's going to go wrong and how long has this technology been around, and we are really, I mean, I remember social media came out when I was just graduating college, and so these things are so new, everything from not only the radiation aspect, but also the mental and emotional aspect. And so when you focus on distancing yourself physically from the radiation, it can also have mental and emotional positive impacts because we're spending less time. We're spending less time on these things that are causing less stress to our minds and our bodies. And-

August: Please tell me more examples from your family. I know you have a gorgeous, beautiful family.

Kristine Mauss: Oh, thank you.

August Brice: Tell me. Tell me how... things that you've noticed with the having to turn off.

Avila Mauss: I remember my mom telling me that walking barefoot on the grass and dirt and then hugging trees can release EMFs in your body. It's definitely made me want to be outside more, because when we're constantly inside with the waves just roaming around free, going outside and with family and siblings is a lot of fun too, knowing that I'm not choosing to, I kind of have to. If I want to be healthy and yeah...

Kristine Mauss: Well, and I log out of social media apps. One thing I've also done, read through a lot of your privacy articles, as well. I know it doesn’t have to do with radiation but that as well, and just really ensuring that that aspect is something I take into consideration as well, so logging out, spending less time, not having the children in front of screens, not only for the radiation aspect, but their eyes, going to the eye doctor, rates of myopia in children is increasing dramatically. And I believe my eye doctor said an incredible number of children, if this rate continues, will be blind when they’re adults, because the lengthening of their eyes due to staring at screens is doing such damage.

Kristine Mauss: My second son is nearsighted and is wearing glasses and his eyes have, just over the course of a year, worsened a bit more. And so all of these things have made us really look at what we are choosing to do as a family to protect ourselves mentally, emotionally, physically, protect our home, protect our privacy. And these are... I remember getting my first smartphone and not really ever thinking about any of this, but then 10 years rolls by and we start to kind of wake up and see what the side effects are. And you think to really think.

August Brice: Yeah, it comes slowly. I love what you were saying about the blue light and also just the digital light from the screens. They're not exactly sure what's happening. I mean, yeah, staring at the screens, it's shortening the rods, but also they found out that the longer that children are on screens, the more tendency they have to the myopia and the more they play outside, the more they counteract it.

Kristine Mauss: Right.

Avila Mauss: Yeah.

August Brice: Have you heard that?

Avila Mauss: No, no, go ahead. Yeah.

August Brice: Now, and-

Kristine Mauss: Yeah. Yeah, We heard that from our eye doctor as well, being able to stare off into long distances to counteract how the eyes are working up close.

August Brice: It's so great, and I wonder if it has something to do with the natural blue light too. They're not sure, but it's just so healthy. It's just such a great, healthy, alternative,

Kristine Mauss: Right.

Avila Mauss: Yeah.

August Brice: Okay. So what, Avila, is the one thing that you're hoping everyone will know from this project?

Avila Mauss: I'm hoping that everyone will know that radiation isn't just something we... that people can start thinking about it and that we can become healthier, because if WiFi radiation is helping the cause of cancer, that we can reduce the exposure to WiFi radiation and possibly reduce higher chances of cancer, because cancer is not fun and these illnesses and headaches and all... sleep fatigue and just all these things are not fun. So I'm thinking that if people can just limit their exposure to WiFi radiation that they can become healthier.

August Brice: That's beautiful. And what are a wonderful tribute to your fabulous dad.

Avila Mauss: Thank you.

August Brice: Really wonderful. And Kristine, what are you hoping people will take away? Avila said it all.

Kristine Mauss: Yeah, I think she did. Yeah, I think that being able to see something, I mean, out of sight, out of mind and that's really what radiation waves are. They're out of sight and so they're out of our minds. And so if we can see the physical effects in something as simple as a plant, for all of us to step back and think about ways that this may be affecting us and how we can reduce our exposure in our day to day life, because it's a cumulative effect.

August Brice: Just like the sun.

Kristine Mauss: Yeah, right.

August Brice: Good. I like that. And I love out of sight, out of mind. I haven't actually ever used that in a blog post, or on a post, but that's so true. Because even though it's out of sight and out of mind, doesn't mean it's not there.

Kristine Mauss: Right. Yeah, and I think even for us, even Avila doing this experiment, it's still easy for us to kind of go back to old ways. And so either taking out the meter every couple of weeks and reminding ourselves, okay, this is what's really here, or having a check in with each other, or continuing to reduce our exposure in whatever way we can. I know that's something that is... it's easy to fall back into old patterns, but continuing to implement this in our family and in our home.

August Brice: Great. And Avila, I'm just so impressed. Like I said before.

Avila Mauss: Thank you.

August Brice: I am so impressed with your knowledge.

Kristine Mauss: Very proud.

August Brice: I bet you are. You guys are busy. Congratulations. And I'm just thrilled that I can share this with more people and hopefully more kids will be doing this experiment like you did.

Avila Mauss: Yeah Same.

August Brice: And so what grade was the science fair?

Avila Mauss: 7th grade.

August Brice: 7th grade. Okay. The 7th grade. Was that the best science project they ever saw? Did they tell you?

Kristine Mauss: There were some pretty cool ones. One of your friends, he tested which materials-

Avila Mauss: Blocks the WiFi radiation.

Kristine Mauss: ... blocks a WiFi signal. So he was testing with his video games, if you put particular materials in between the WiFi, around the WiFi, would it block it? And so that was really interesting to see these experiments coupled together. And yeah, I mean, you all just did, so...

Kristine Mauss: Oh, wow.

Avila Mauss: Oh, wow.

August Brice: I know. I'm pretty, I'm probably difficult, but...

Avila Mauss: That's a good thing.

August Brice: Yeah, I have sensitivity to it, so...

Kristine Mauss: Well, especially if you couple this with other, I mean, I have Lyme disease, so I have to be...

August Brice: Oh, you have to. It's-

Kristine Mauss: I have to be very careful and some mold toxicity that I was able to overcome and all of these things are, and we're very much into natural medicine and it all matters, all these little things matter. So it's good to...

August Brice: Yeah.I lost my cousin six years ago to the same cancer.

Kristine Mauss: Oh. Oh, wow. I'm sorry.

August Brice: Yeah. Yeah, and so-

Kristine Mauss: It's a brutal disease.

August Brice: Oh, unbelievable. Unbelievable. I'm so sorry. But he was... he did not... we talked a little bit about the phone, but...

Kristine Mauss: Sure.

August Brice: It did not resonate with him.

Kristine Mauss: Even with brain cancer, it makes you wonder why is this not studied more? What is it that is not wanting to come out?

August Brice: It's really interesting. So you think it isn't studied, just the cause?

Kristine Mauss: From what I've read, I mean, the funding that goes to brain cancer research is a minuscule amount compared to things like breast cancer and other more prominent cancers. I would post statistics when my husband was sick, things that I didn't even know until I discovered myself. And it was really eyeopening because brain cancer is not something that is talked about. There's no... yeah, there's brain cancer month, but you don't see people walking around with gray pins on. And I mean, not everything is nefarious, but it also has to make you wonder. I mean, what is really going on? Again, we are so new. I mean, a decade or two decades is not a very long time. I mean, that's a generation to be able to see how these things are now starting to have an effect on us as humans.

August Brice: Right. Well, I have it on my website that, from Dr. George Carlo's book, he wrote a letter to all of the mobile... He was hired by the mobile phone industry to CTIA, it's the industry group, and he was hired to do the research. And when he got about 85% through the research, he wrote a letter to AT&T and the other mobile phone providers. I have the copy of the AT&T letter on the website. And he said, we're seeing some tumors and some cancers, and I think we need to take a step back and then he got fired. We're just going to have to do it ourselves. We're just going to have to not buy into it. How great if you're getting rid of your smart TV. Tell me what TV you can buy that's not a smart TV.

Kristine Mauss: Wow.

August Brice: They... yes, and-

August Brice: Yeah, but that's what we're going to probably have to do with everything. I keep saying to my friends, the young people that are in this industry, I say, "You know what? If you could learn how to open TVs and other things up and take out antennas, people would use your services." I really think they would.

Kristine  Yeah.

Kristine Mauss: I think most people just need to be made aware that this is even a thing. And then they get so overwhelmed. Okay, where do I go? What do I do? And to be able to just have... this is your checklist.

Kristine Mauss: Yes, you did.

August Brice: Did that work out for you?

Kristine Mauss: I haven't tried it yet, but [inaudible 00:36:06].

August Brice: Yeah, it's kind of complicated.

Kristine Mauss: You just plugs that box into the router?

August Brice: Yes, you use one of those cables, the long one or the short one, whichever one you want, and you plug that into the router and then that splitter lets you put other cables into it. And then with those cables, you take either your phone or your computers with those adapters, and then you're right into the Internet. It's super fast. It's super safe. And a lot of routers, you can turn off your WiFi and still use it.

Kristine Mauss: And still use it. Okay.

August Brice: Yes.

Kristine Mauss: Okay, wow.

August Brice: And I don't know if you have an older home, but if you have an older home, you might already have the outlets around your home and you just plug them in.

Kristine Mauss: Oh, from that?

August Brice: Yeah. It's great. I think it's the future. It's everywhere.

August Brice: And I want to stay in touch, so I'll keep following you and see what you do. And you can follow Kristine, and I hope that you will, she really is an amazing writer and so insightful about the journey that she's on. And you can see her beautiful family. You can follow her on Instagram, @LoveKristineNicole. That's with a K. And then she also has a beautiful website. Kristine Nicole. I will link both in this show notes.

August Brice: And I'm really, really excited to offer this, your own science fair kit, complete with organic microgreens and trays, one to put by the WiFi, one to put somewhere else, and a third to put maybe outside and see how that grows. Also, you get an EMF meter so that you can find a place in your home that's free, or at least has less wireless energy. And after you use the meter for the science experiment, you can share the meter with friends or loved ones. You can keep the meter to continue to do checks. I love to take this particular meter to restaurants and it helps me find a seat that I feel good in. So there's lots of uses for that. And thank you again for joining us on Thriving With Technology. I'm August Brice. Please like, subscribe, so that you can hear more great information about living well with technology. See you next time. Bye.



]]> 2021-07-24T19:46:12-07:00 2021-08-27T11:54:31-07:00 Thriving with Technology Podcast: Give Your Kids A Screen Free Summer with Jennifer Sitterud! Spoiler Alert: They'll LOVE it! August Brice

Available here too:


Give Your Kids A Screen Free Summer! Spoiler Alert: They'll LOVE it!

If you've got kids and you've ever struggled with how to regulate their time online and more importantly, maintain a nice relationship with them, you're in for a real treat.

Jennifer Sitterud is a brilliant mom I came across on Instagram. You can see her gorgeous family here. She posted something like, "Okay, we're logging off now. It's time for screen-free summer." And I thought, wow, really? What? How do you do that? So, I knew as we got into the thick of summer, it would be great to talk to Jen about how she actually does it and how she keeps the kids occupied and engaged. So, you can find a really fun, easy, practical discussion that shows you that you can make screen time free summers work for you, even if it's a screen-free summer week and build better relationships with your kids at the same time.

Jenn has some amazing FREE downloads to help you plan your screen free time here:  Screen Free Summer Printables

A couple of other fun solutions from the Tech Wellness team:  Our BIG TIME Tech Timekeeper.  This very fun old school timer puts an element of fun into any activity and it when the kids are online, it shows them how much time they have left.  It's our best cure for continuous scrolling and helps everyone achieve optimum focus!  

And before you leave on vacation this year, don't forget to check out our newly updated WiFi-free Games for Kids.  Lots of things to do without being connected to the internet. 

I hope you enjoy the episode.  If you find what we're doing useful, please like us on the iTunes Store and share the message with your family and friends.  And of course for more information, visit us anytime at Tech Wellness.

Be Well!

August Brice 

Here's the full transcript of the podcast: 

Jennifer Sitterud:

So, when we first start, they definitely complain and they kind of like, "Mom, why are we doing this?" And within the first few weeks of us going screen-free, I know this sounds crazy, but they really get along better because they have those opportunities to play with each other, to imagine things, to create, and they're not just in front of a screen. Because I feel like a lot of times the screens cause fighting with, "What are we going to watch? And I want to watch this." And when we eliminate that, they really learn how to play together, how to problem solve. And so, they get along better, which sounds crazy to a lot, but it really is true. And it's so much fun.

August Brice:

Welcome to the Thriving With Technology podcast from I'm August Brice and today, if you've got kids and you've ever struggled with how to regulate their time online and more importantly, maintain a nice relationship with them, you're in for a real treat. Jennifer Sitterud is a brilliant mom I came across on Instagram. She posted something like, "Okay, we're logging off now. It's time for screen-free summer." And I thought, wow, really? What? How do you do that? So, I knew as we got into the thick of summer, it would be great to talk to Jen about how she actually does it and how she keeps the kids occupied and engaged. So, you can find a really fun, easy, practical discussion that shows you that you can make screen time free summers work for you, even if it's a screen-free summer week and build better relationships with your kids at the same time.

August Brice:

So, if this is your first listen, let me take a second to tell you about Tech Wellness and why we're here. Tech Wellness is a platform that helps everyone maintain a balanced relationship with the tech we all love, mind, body, soul, privacy. I started after discovering that I was sensitive to electromagnetic frequencies or EMFs. And as I researched and I learned and was able to help myself, I realized that we all need answers and solutions about not only EMF, but also about online privacy, blue light from our screens, overuse and addiction, and creating a healthy digital home. So, please visit Tech Wellness and join us on the journey. We hope you'll follow the podcast and it would be so, so nice, it would mean so much to me if you would give us a rating on Apple Podcasts because it helps them help us spread the word.

August Brice:

So, now, let me introduce you to a really cool mom, Jennifer Sitterud and how to create a screen free summer for your kids. Okay. So, this is Jennifer Sitterud, who goes by Jen and I am so thrilled to be talking to you. This is something that I found you on Instagram. And I saw you made an announcement, "Okay, we're going offline for the summer." And I thought, what? Going offline for the summer. I had to talk to you. How do you go offline for the summer with five kids?

Jennifer Sitterud:

Yes, I am so glad you reached out. I get that a lot like, how do you do this? We started when they were younger and it was so much fun and we had the best summer. So, I'm like, we need to do this every summer.

August Brice:

Okay, so first of all, you got five kids, ages?

Jennifer Sitterud:

Yeah. So, my oldest is going to be 15, which is so wild, 15, and then I have a daughter, she's going to be 13, a son that's 10, another girl that is eight and a little guy that's five.

August Brice:

And let me tell you, if you haven't followed Tutus and Jerseys, you absolutely have to because Jen has the most beautiful family. They should be modeling for J Crew or something. It's beautiful, beautiful family.

Jennifer Sitterud:

Thank you.

August Brice:

Really fun to follow. So, you decided when the youngest was, well, it must've been when he was just bored, right?

Jennifer Sitterud:

Yes. Well, so it was actually, I was pregnant with my last, my fifth. And in the thick of it, young kids, I was pregnant and I get pretty sick the first trimester. And so, I felt like the screens were my babysitter. My kids were in front of the screens a lot. It was survival mode. And once I started feeling better, I thought, you know what? We need a screen break. We need to get in the outdoors, and I tell my kids all the time, that's how I grew up. We grew up outside exploring, creating, and I have some wonderful childhood memory. So, I want to incorporate that with my kids. So, we started that summer, screen-free summer.

August Brice:

What does that mean exactly?

Jennifer Sitterud:

Yes. So, we've had to adjust it throughout the summer. Each summer, we get a little bit better and the kids give their opinions of what they want. So, it's not a 100% screen-free. So, Monday through Friday, there's no screens. Then Friday night, they get to reward themselves with screen time and then Saturday night as well, they get to have screen time. So, I feel like it's a good balance. We have activities throughout the weekdays, come weekends, they get to just watch and do whatever they want as far as screens go. You asked me about my oldest. He got a phone last year.

August Brice:

14, he got his first phone.

Jennifer Sitterud:

Yes. I know that is so shocking to a lot of people and it may change with the younger ones, but with my oldest, I really wanted to wait as long as possible. I went to seminars about screens and the dangers of it and the things that kids experience through screens with a lot of anxiety, depression, and the things that they're exposed to. So, I really wanted to wait as long as possible. So, yeah, he got it a month before he turned 14. Last summer we went, he did the screen-free weekdays and then he got to, on the weekends, text and call his friends and hang out, that way to communicate.

August Brice:

So, this is a great example of someone who never had a screen and never had a phone, now he does. What does he think? So, this was his first year of having a phone and then not having it all summer long.

Jennifer Sitterud:

Yes. So, he got it last summer or a month before summer started. And so, it was good because he wasn't in the habit of it, of having a phone. I'm a little like, "Okay, I wonder how this summer is going to go?" You know?

August Brice:

Exactly, yeah.

Jennifer Sitterud:

And so, we're going to have, in the next couple weeks, have conversations like, "Hey, what do you feel like doing?" We've done this for six, I think seven summers. What do you feel like you can do to still engage in screen-free summers?

August Brice:

Well, I know I want to go through every single day, all the little things that you have planned and all the fun that you have, but first I really do want to talk about you. Do you actually go through the summer without a screen yourself? Does that mean you don't use your phone?

Jennifer Sitterud:

Okay. So, yeah, I get asked that question a lot. So, I don't. The first summer I had to delete all my social media apps. So, I wasn't tempted because I thought, you know what? As a mother, if I want my kids to do this, I need to do this as well and I would like to break some habits. You don't realize it is very habit forming. And so, yeah, I deleted all the social media. I had my phone for calls and texts, but that was it, and so, that's been every summer. I will delete all my social media apps and just keep it for calls and text.

August Brice:

How does that feel? So, how many apps do you have?

Jennifer Sitterud:

You know what, it's so funny, I've never really been a Facebook person. I have Instagram and Pinterest, and so that goes.

August Brice:

So, just at the door, turn it off, grab your phone. So, you don't read the news on your phone. So, how does that feel after about two weeks?

Jennifer Sitterud:

I tell everyone, I say, get through with kids and especially because my husband also takes part in it as well, which is so awesome. Get through that first week. It is hard, everyone gets a little more cranky and you're breaking these habits, but you get through that first week and you start that next week, it feels so good. By the second, third weekend I get out of the habit of checking my phone. I don't feel the need to check my phone or I'm more present, I feel like. I feel like I'm more present in what is going on with my family and things that we're doing. And I love it. It's such a freeing feeling.

August Brice:

Isn't it? Guess, I unplug every day for a couple of hours and I don't know, I feel so independent. I feel free. I feel like my life is my life and it doesn't belong to anybody else for those two hours, and I feel powerful. So, but I imagine for you not going to social media at all, I would love to know how it feels when you're having this amazing time with the family, and you're in an idyllic situation, and you just want to grab the phone and take pictures and post them.

Jennifer Sitterud:

Yes. So, when I first started, I wasn't really in the habit of Instagram. And through the years, I'm more in like taking videos and pictures of the kids all the time. And so, there will be moments where I'm like, "Oh," and then I'm like, "You know what? No, we're just going to be present." And I saw this picture a few years ago and it just rang true. And I picture all the time, it's this elderly lady in a group of people and all these people have their phones up and she's just sitting there, no phones and just watching with a smile on her face. And I thought that is awesome. She's just in the moment, just present in the moment, enjoying that moment.

August Brice:

Have the kids talked to you about it? Have they said, "Mom, this is stupid," or on any particular day that they said this is the best thing ever? Especially the older one, is he old enough to understand what's happening when he's unlike anybody else? The whole family is doing something. I'm sure you guys go places and you don't have your phones.

Jennifer Sitterud:


August Brice:

That is so good because one of the first studies that I remember writing about was the study from UCLA, where they noticed that the kids were losing all their empathy skills. And so, these people just started... The kids just didn't care about each other. And so, they took the kids camping for a week without their screens and they found that that came back very strong very quickly. So, I think like you're saying, it might be the empathy, but then you...

PART 1 OF 4 ENDS [00:11:04]

August Brice:

... Quickly. So, I think, like you're saying, it might be the empathy. But then, you also said how they might argue over screens. And then, there's that whole idea of screen snubbing where they might be in a conversation with each other or playing a game or something, and somebody picks up their phone or looks at the screen over there.

Jennifer Sitterud:

Yes. See. And it's super important for me to teach my kids to be able to communicate with kids their age and adults and look them in the eyes. And I think that's really important for them to learn that, because I feel like we're really losing that connection with each other.

August Brice:

No. You're absolutely right. There are studies about that as well, that that's going out the door because we're not showing them how to connect. We're not talking to them about the importance. And a lot of times we're not modeling it.

Jennifer Sitterud:


August Brice:

And we're in a conversation with a girlfriend or a husband or something, and we can pick up a screen right in the middle of it, get a notification and boom. And so, the kids see that. So, tell me about what you've noticed in your kids as far as being able to connect with adults and other kids.

Jennifer Sitterud:

Well, and I've had a lot of friends mention, "Your kids, they're confident kids and they can carry on a conversation." And not all the time, but there will be moments when I feel like that, removing the screens so they have opportunities to communicate with adults and with kids on a daily basis and get that practice. It really helps them be more confident in their relationships and who they are.

August Brice:

And at this age though, especially like you were talking about with your 15 year old now, is he feeling a little left out from the crowd because he doesn't have access to his phone? Or can you foresee that happening this next summer?

Jennifer Sitterud:

Yeah. So, last year... well, so he started seventh grade and didn't get his phone until the end of seventh grade. That's junior high here. He started junior high now. And there were moments when he would come home and like, "Mom, I don't know what's going on." And I felt bad for... and I kind of talked to him and I said, "Hey, like give them my cell phone and have them reach out, or you get their numbers, reach out. And just kind of explained the importance of, "Logan, I'm doing this because I feel like this is for your best interest to go as long as possible because phones are so habit forming. And I want you to be able to, when you have your phone, know that it's a tool for good uses, and not get into bad habits with the phone."

August Brice:


Jennifer Sitterud:

[Crosstalk 00:13:46].

August Brice:

I absolutely agree. And I understand everything you do. I'm wondering though how the other kids... does he know how the other kids perceive him? Because he was probably one of the last kids to get a phone. Right? What's the average age at his school for kids to have their own phone?

Jennifer Sitterud:

Like between ten and I think ten, 11 usually. Yeah.

August Brice:

And so-

Jennifer Sitterud:

We have friends that have even eight year olds and stuff. And it is. My kids, they want... the older ones. Now Logan has one, but my older daughter, I wonder more for her because it's different with girls. They're on their phones constantly. And so, I wonder what's going to happen with that. So, but just reiterating to them the importance of it. And, yeah, Logan, he understood that, so.

August Brice:

Do you think he had competence and pride because he didn't have a phone? Could you go that far?

Jennifer Sitterud:

I really do. I really think so. Because he did. There wasn't any distractions for him, as a phone, it can be really distracting. So, I feel like it... yeah. I feel like it did.

August Brice:

Wouldn't it be great to turn it around and you're a super cool if you don't have a phone?

Jennifer Sitterud:

Yes. Yes. And like... yeah. And, when I went to seminars... and I don't know if you heard of Collin Kartchner. He has since passed last fall. He did a lot of seminars on this very thing, of not giving kids smartphones. Saving the kids. Looking kids in the eyes. Parents especially not being distracted with cell phones. Giving eight second hugs. Like all of those scenes. And, yeah. And he was trying to have that movement of not having a smartphone is the cool thing to do. And there were tons of kids that reached out to him that said, "I was really anxiety filled. I was really in a dark place. And I deleted my Snapchat, my TikTok, and all of this. And I feel so much better."

August Brice:

Yeah. It's empowering. And there's a great study that talks about... it's young adults who just get to college. And they do research and find out that they're depressed, lonely, and anxious. And they realize that, if they can limit their social media to a half an hour a day, their entire world changes. They become more confident and more peaceful and feel better about themselves and feel like life is more of a joy. So, that's actually in a steady, so. And they don't do that until they get to college, which is interesting.

Jennifer Sitterud:

Yeah. Yeah.

August Brice:

That somehow you're sucked into it when you're in high school and you can't get away from it because everybody has one. And that's how everyone communicates with each other.

Jennifer Sitterud:

Yeah. Absolutely. Well, and I feel like too, they're still developing their brain. And so, it's so important that we kind of limit the screen time so they can really learn how to use it for good, because it is. It's habit forming. And I'm really passionate about the brain.

August Brice:

Good for you. Absolutely. And, with Logan, have you been able to... just tell us. So, he gets his first phone.

Jennifer Sitterud:


August Brice:

And do you go through social media with him? Do you just hand it to him and say, "Choose whatever you want?" Like how did you help him with his relationship with his phone?

Jennifer Sitterud:

Yeah. So, my husband kind of wrote up a little contract of this is kind of rules of our house. This is kind of the guidelines we'd love for you to follow because we feel like this is safety rules to keep. So, we gave him his phone. We downloaded the iPACT, which is great for parents.

August Brice:


Jennifer Sitterud:

You can limit the apps and the time limit, who is calling.

August Brice:


Jennifer Sitterud:

And, yeah. So, he doesn't have social media though.

August Brice:

Okay. When will he get social media?

Jennifer Sitterud:

We're thinking 16, when he gets in high school. So, we were hoping later, but I think that's probably when he'll get it.

August Brice:

I really admire you, Jen. I think it's, in this day and age to have the confidence to do that and to have that great relationship with your kids and to help them have great relationships with each other. And so, I'd love to know, and I know everyone wants to know, "What do you do every day when the kids don't have their screens?" Just walk us through Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, because it actually sounds like a fun summer camp.

Jennifer Sitterud:

It really is. And it really is so fun. And summers have become like our greatest like just memory making. So, on Mondays, the theme is make something Monday. So, we make cookies, or they make Play-Doh, or some science experiment. It's all centered around making something.

August Brice:


Jennifer Sitterud:

And also, what I tell them kind of before we start is, "I don't want to make more work for mom. Mom's life is hard." And so, I want them to be in charge and them to think of things to do. So, Mondays make something Monday. Tuesday is take a trip Tuesday. So, we'll take a trip somewhere. And it doesn't even have to be some like paying something. We can go to like a museum, a dinosaur museum. Or they love to go get snow cones in the summer, of course. So, we'll take a trip to go get snow cones or take a trip... just, yeah. Just anything really. That's kind of what our Tuesdays look like.

Jennifer Sitterud:

Wednesdays is wet and wild Wednesday. So, that is swimming pool, or sprinklers, water balloons, anything centered around water. Thursday is thinking Thursday. So, that is actually where we'll either go to the library, they'll do science experiments. I have a few, and my ten-year-old is very into just entrepreneur type stuff. So, he loves to think, and explore, and create things. So, he kind of heads Thursdays for us. And then, Friday is our free day. So, once we kind of go throughout the day on Friday, then Friday come four or five o'clock Friday free night. They get to watch, turn on the screens, whatever they want to do. And then, Saturday is service Saturday. So, we kind of think of something to do around the neighborhood or some... well, last year my son had an opportunity to pull weeds a lot at our neighbor's house.

August Brice:


Jennifer Sitterud:

So, just something centered around thinking of someone else. Service Saturday. So, and then by four or five o'clock on Saturday, then screens are on again. They get to have a break and relax, so.

August Brice:

You're amazing.

Jennifer Sitterud:


August Brice:

Because all the skills you're teaching them too. And just teaching them organization and planning and just expanding their horizons that they can concept these fun things to do themselves.

Jennifer Sitterud:

Yeah. It's been so important for me, and especially having more than one. Once we started having a lot of kids, it was just really important for me and realizing how quickly they grow up. And I really wanted them to learn these life skills and to learn all the different things that they can learn. So, it's been awesome.

August Brice:

Now, what happens [crosstalk 00:21:33].

Jennifer Sitterud:

But it is so awesome.

August Brice:

Yeah. I'm sure it is. It's got to be. It's good for you. And so, but what do you notice when Monday comes along and they've been able to... it sounds like they can watch TV Friday night, Saturday night, and Sunday night.

Jennifer Sitterud:


August Brice:

Or use their phones or whatever other screen opportunities you guys have.

Jennifer Sitterud:


August Brice:

What happens on Monday? What's the frame of mind for Monday? Is it just so fun that they don't care?

Jennifer Sitterud:


August Brice:

What's it like?

Jennifer Sitterud:

So, there will be moments-

PART 2 OF 4 ENDS [00:22:04]

August Brice:

[crosstalk 00:22:00] ... that they don't care, or what's it?

Jennifer Sitterud:

There will be moments. So it seems like the first two weeks, it's really hard because we're getting out of the habit, breaking those bad habits, getting into some new habits, routine. And so it's a little struggle, but I just keep reminding them. And if I come into it as a positive thing and just ... Then that's kind of the energy of the home. And so I just tell myself, "Okay. You got this. Give it a week or two." Then after that, they really have created this routine and they looked forward to it. One of them or two of them might, on a Monday, "Oh, we have to do this again, Mom?" But we just kind of reiterate. This is what we want to do. It's awesome. And yeah, they get on board pretty quickly.

August Brice:

And so you always have your phone with you though, right? You were saying that, that you have it for calls and texts. How do you manage it so that it doesn't seem like you're looking at your screen if you're texting or calling someone, but they're not?

Jennifer Sitterud:

Yes. [crosstalk 00:23:08] So the good thing is, well, and maybe not so good thing, because a lot of people try to like ... "I can't get ahold of you." I really forget to check my phone. So it'll be in my room or the kitchen. And I really, with the kids, because they're home for summer, they're not in schools. And so I really try to not have my phone when I'm with them. And once I break the habits of the social media, then it really is easy for me not to check my phone. It really is.

August Brice:

Have you tried setting those auto notifications? I do that when I'm offline, where if someone texts me, they get a message from me that says, "I'm unplugging." And I tell them about the benefits of unplugging. And I tell them if they need to, they can break through urgent, but I never look at my phone so [crosstalk 00:23:54]

Jennifer Sitterud:

Oh, that's fantastic. My husband will do that when he's driving. It will have automatic, "I'm driving." I need to do that.

August Brice:

[crosstalk 00:24:02].

Jennifer Sitterud:

And I think friends and family know by now, summers, Jen doesn't have her phone on most of the time. So at nighttime, usually that's when I'll check a lot of calls, texts, stuff like that.

August Brice:

And so have you found at all that when the school year starts and you're back to social media, have you ever heard the kids say or make any comments or just that you might feel that they're wishing that it was still screen-free time?

Jennifer Sitterud:

Oh yeah. They will say ... They will comment at the end of summer, "This is the best summer. I love this." And it's interesting. When they first start school, they won't even, during the weekday, they won't come home and try to turn on the TV or the computer, because they're out of the habit. Slowly but surely we'll get back into those habits again. That's why I really love summertime because we do. We'll get in the habits, Halloween, Thanksgiving, Christmas break. So that's why I think it's important to have those summer times.

August Brice:

Oh, so on Christmas break they don't have their screens either?

Jennifer Sitterud:

They will. We'll get back into habits of watching screens during the holidays, which is totally fun and fine. But that's why I love the summertime just to really kind of break free from that and just make new memories.

August Brice:

And do you think that they feel the power of the unplug and they'll be able to carry that forward in their lives when they're grown up?

Jennifer Sitterud:

Yes. I hope so. As a mother, I really hope so. I really hope they're learning these tools and these life skills that will help them. My oldest actually has mentioned, "I get it, Mom. Thank you. I get it." And then you're like, "Okay. Yes." [crosstalk 00:25:50]

August Brice:

I'm really curious. Has the oldest ever commented that maybe some of his friends are on screens too much, or does he have a different perspective because-

Jennifer Sitterud:

I think he does have a different perspective, especially when he was dealing with one that didn't have a phone for awhile. But he really felt ... At the first he asked, "I want a phone. Can I have a phone?" After awhile passed, he really felt empowered. "I don't need a phone. It's distracting. I don't need that." And he really learned quickly in watching others that it can be empowering not to have a phone.

August Brice:

I mean, I can think of putting my self in my kid's shoes back at that age. It might even be empowering that your mom can't find you all the time with your phone.

Jennifer Sitterud:


August Brice:

[crosstalk 00:26:41].

Jennifer Sitterud:

Yes, yes. It is so true. So they can really learn to use their imagination, especially when they're younger. They can turn a little paper into whatever and they're learning to create. And I think we really encourage that without having screens because they're thinkers, they're creators as children. And when we're in front of screens all the time, we kind of squash that. So that was really important for me to really develop their brains in that aspect.

August Brice:

Such a good point. Now tell me, other moms must have been saying to you, "Oh my gosh, you're not getting him a phone?"

Jennifer Sitterud:


August Brice:

How did you handle that? What were you thinking when people would say to you, "Gosh, he doesn't have a phone. That's kind of weird."

Jennifer Sitterud:

Yeah. You know what? For the most part, it was a lot of positive feedback. And, "I wish I could do that. How do you do that?" And on my blog, we did these free printables of our outline. And so I've had friends reach out, "Oh my heck, we did a week." And that's what I tell everybody. Just try a week, see how the week goes. You don't have to go full summer, which I encourage that. But try a day, a few days, a week, two weeks and see how that is. So I've got a lot of positive feedback about it.

August Brice:

Tell me what people have said who've tried it, even just a day.

Jennifer Sitterud:

They loved it. Yeah. One friend, she actually went a week and she said, "I couldn't believe how well my kids did, how well they got along, how well they played outside. She said because I was nervous that my kids don't really play. They don't play with blocks or play with toys. And she said, "After that week, I was a firm believer that, wow, give them this opportunity, eliminating those screens of what they could create and what they can do."

August Brice:

Excellent. And I want to go back to that one question though before about Logan not having a phone when everyone else had a phone for a few years. How did you as a mom deal with what other moms were saying or thinking or what he was saying to you about that?

Jennifer Sitterud:

I really was tempted. There were moments, quite a few moments where I talked to my husband. "Okay. Should we? This is their generation. This is their ... Screens are a part of who they are now." And so there were moments when I was close, really close to giving in, to like, "Okay, let's just ... let's get him this phone now. Let's get him ..." And yeah, and kind of worrying, I guess, about what other moms thought like. "Oh, we don't have phones." But I'm glad we stayed strong.

August Brice:

Oh, I bet. Good for you. Like I said before, I think he probably feels like he's the cool kid, because he was able to be different. And now it's just, like you said, it's what they're growing up in. It's the culture. It's very normal to have a phone. It's not a big deal anymore.

Jennifer Sitterud:

Yes. Yeah.

August Brice:

[crosstalk 00:29:49].

Jennifer Sitterud:

Yes. And that's ... And I feel like Logan probably felt for a little while kind of the outsider. And I just encouraged him. I said, "Hey, it's okay to be different. It's okay to do different things. Learn what you can learn through this experience, because your dad and I feel like this is what we want to do in our family and what we want to teach you kids." So I think just having those open conversations of why we're doing this and what's the reasoning. And not all of our kids really fully understand, I guess. They're still younger, the younger ones. But hopefully as the older they get, how the importance of that.

August Brice:

Of having that space between the connection and the control of the phone?

Jennifer Sitterud:


August Brice:

Practically speaking, I'm sure a lot of parents would love to know what do you do when your kid doesn't have a phone and you want to try to find them, or you forgot their lunch or they forgot their lunch or you're not picking them up. How does it work?

Jennifer Sitterud:

Yes, See, and that's where we're getting into a little tricky because now my older kids are a lot more active, involved in sports and dance. Sometimes, especially with my daughter, she's actually close. I think we're going to get her a phone. But it is, it's like, "Oh, I want to get a hold of them. I want to track them down." But they know now, when they go to a friend's house, have the mom text me so I know you're there. Or at school, they always will use the front office phone.

August Brice:

That still exists? There's still a front office phone.

Jennifer Sitterud:

Yes there is. Can you even? So it's just ... It's teaching them, I think, to problem solve. Well, you got to figure it out. But also, yeah, I feel like with my younger ones, I don't think we'll go until 14 anymore to get a phone. I think we'll start 13.

August Brice:

Okay. That's still late. So that's great.

Jennifer Sitterud:

Yes. And I think just for the fact of getting a hold of them, making sure I know where they're at and they're doing okay. And the thing is, I have a lot of their friends contacts in my phone, so I can keep track of them.

August Brice:

And I love what you said about going to the front office too, because that's one more opportunity to have a social connection with an adult, to have to actually talk to someone instead of just running to your phone to solve the problem.

Jennifer Sitterud:

Absolutely. Yes. I love that aspect.


You're listening to Thriving with Technology, the tech wellness podcast with August Brice. August will be right back, but first, have you ever wished you could reduce the risk of EMFs from your smartphone? It's one of our biggest exposures to information carrying radio waves. Those are the waves that have been proven over the course of thousands of scientific studies to really have a biological impact. And our phones are with us all the time.


One of the best ways to reduce that exposure is to use air tube headphones, air tubes make sure that any stray radiation from your phone doesn't travel up the wire and into your head. August has been designing headphones for over a decade now. She even holds a patent for one. This latest design is by far the best yet. Our exclusive Safer Tech Air Tube headphones have been completely redesigned and they are the ultimate EMF protection. The speaker system has been overhauled and improved. I listened to a lot of headphones, and I can tell you that these are some of the very best ...

PART 3 OF 4 ENDS [00:33:04]


I listen to a lot of headphones, and I can tell you that these are some of the very best sounding wired headphones you can buy. The double-insulated cable is now even longer so that you can keep that smartphone a long way away from you. Distance is your friend. And because August wants you to be comfortable, every Safertech air tube headphone comes with five choices of earbuds, so there's a perfect fit for every ear.


Safertech air tube headphones come in beautiful rose gold, and in black. They're coming soon in gold. If you tried to order earlier in the year and found that we were out of stock, well, now is your chance. Just look for the link in the notes below, or visit and check out all the resources there to help you and your family live in balance with technology. And now, back to August.

Jennifer Sitterud:

I really think it's a little different for girls, because Logan's friends, there wasn't any like, "Oh, that's okay, Logan, whatever." There was times he asked for it, but it wasn't really a big deal. I think it might be a little different for girls. Girls are more social.

August Brice:

I can't wait to see what happens with her. So, she's 12 now, or 13?

Jennifer Sitterud:

She's going to be 13 the end of May.

August Brice:

And you may give her her phone then, or you might wait till she's 14.

Jennifer Sitterud:

Yeah. I know, Logan's like, "You got to wait till she's 14, mom. I waited." She's involved a lot with dance, and so that was our only thing of, "Oh, maybe we'll get a phone just to be able to get ahold of her."

August Brice:

Yeah. What about social media? Because I'm sure a lot of her girlfriends, especially with dance, are posting the competition, and the awards, and just something on social media. Do you let them log into their friends' social media accounts?

Jennifer Sitterud:

A lot of their friends, they follow me. And so, when their friends are posting, I'll have the kids, "Hey, come and see your friend." So they keep up with them on my account, and not all the time. It's funny because they don't see it, they don't know unless I say something. So every once in a while, "Hey, this is your friend," and they'll reach out. Their friends will reach out to me, or message me.

August Brice:

I like that because you're guiding them, you're guiding them on... There are a lot of things that we're understanding about social media, like social comparison. It's how all of us form opinions about ourselves, and beliefs about ourselves, and maybe even decide who we want to be is through social comparison.

August Brice:

And the social comparison on social media is one-dimensional. We don't really know the rest of the story except for what's posted. So, have you ever had the opportunity of guiding them through when you see something that their friends are posting and saying, "Oh, look, they took just really the good part of that situation."? Do you ever get to talk about that with them?

Jennifer Sitterud:

Yeah. And we haven't had that many conversations just because they're not on social media yet, but we have had conversations about not comparing yourself. Instagram or social media can be a highlight reel. You don't know the full story. And so, just having those open conversations of what it really is.

August Brice:

Why don't we just call it a highlight reel? Because that's really all it is, right?

Jennifer Sitterud:

Isn't it so true? It absolutely is. Yes. Yep.

August Brice:

That's good. I like that. Okay, Jen, is there anything else that you want to share with people today? What's the one thing that you want other parents to know, or kids to know?

Jennifer Sitterud:

I guess I want them to know that they can do it. As a mother, life is busy. And it can be really hard. But they're only in our home for a certain amount of years. It goes fast. And I think it's so important for us, especially now in this generation, to teach them to take screen breaks, to get away from your phone. That there's life outside of social media, or constantly on your phone.

Jennifer Sitterud:

So I think it's important, we call them brain breaks. To take brain breaks away from screens, and to allow yourself to connect with other people. And to just be an encourager, that, "Moms, you can do it." Take a day, take your week, and see how you feel. Because it really is an empowering, freeing feeling when you can do that.

August Brice:

Great advice. Very good. And I now remember the one other thing that I wanted to ask you about. What about the health effects of the electromagnetic fields and the blue light? Do you consider them in your decisions?

Jennifer Sitterud:

Yes. Oh, absolutely. And especially watching your Instagram, I've learned so much about the blue light and the effects of all of that. So it's important to... We put our phones in our closet...

August Brice:


Jennifer Sitterud:

... and get away from that electro... Or what do you call it?

August Brice:

It's called EMF, electromagnetic radiation. And there's EMF from your outlets too, but it's a different kind. There's electric EMF, magnetic EMF, and then the radiation that comes from our phones. But they all have biological effects.

August Brice:

And so, it's just having the knowledge, and you do. And so you might even see some benefits to their health because of that, as well. Have you noticed anything different about their sleep patterns when you're having the screen-free time?

Jennifer Sitterud:

Yes. Okay, huge difference. And I have video of my daughter falling asleep at 6:00 PM. She was so wiped out, and she slept for 13 hours. And because they're using their brains, they are outside physically being active, they sleep so good in the summer.

August Brice:

Oh, that's so good to hear. And they're also listening to their body's natural cues. And often our screens can take us away from that, because they're distracting.

Jennifer Sitterud:

Yes. I even notice for myself, if I'm on my screen at night pretty late, I don't sleep as good. So it's important for me, around dinner time, a little after, to put my phone away so I can wind down. Yeah, it really affects [crosstalk 00:39:05].

August Brice:

It's very true. Biologically, it's absolutely true. So, Jen, I know you have the printouts on your website, like a guide to the screen-free summer. Tell everybody where they can find you, and how they can get these materials. And do you charge for them?

Jennifer Sitterud:

No, they're free. I think it's so important. It's my blog,

August Brice:

Thank you so much for sharing that information on your blog. What a great resource for parents. And if anyone has questions about this, do you consult? Do you do a Q and A on the blog? Tell me about that.

Jennifer Sitterud:

Reach out to me on my Instagram. Or, and I have, my email. I love to talk about it. Any questions, any concerns, or how we start, or encouragement from me to like, "You can do this," reach out to me anytime. I love it.

August Brice:

That's awesome. You're definitely a guiding light for moms right now. [music 00:40:04].

August Brice:

Wasn't that awesome? Thanks again, Jen. Jen has a ton of free resources, as we said, up on her website, and I'm putting those in the show notes. And until next time, please like, rate, subscribe, all those good things. All the podcasters say it, and it's because it really helps move our podcast board when you share it. So thank you in advance. And until next time, be well.

PART 4 OF 4 ENDS [00:40:31]

]]> 2021-07-07T16:07:41-07:00 2021-08-27T12:08:32-07:00 Thriving With Technology Podcast - How To Heal Illness By Getting Rid Of Toxins In Your Life Marilee Nelson, Co-Founder of Branch Basics Jadian Brice

Available here too:



On today's episode, I'm welcoming Marilee Nelson. She's the founder of Branch Basics, human safe cleaning products. Branch Basics is fast becoming a household name. In fact, it's the only name that you're going to find on anything in my house that's used to clean-anything!

Branch Basics is giving you 15% off all Starter Kits with code TECHWELLNESS   I hope you love using it as much as I do!

You're going to get to know Marilee today. And while she was dealt a very tough hand, she turned it around and turned that into her life's work, her passion, and really fabulous success. Can you imagine at just 23-years-old being told you're going to need a kidney transplant just to survive? After she said NO to that idea and healed herself with a new diet of clean foods, she was able to have a normal life and family.  But THEN can you imagine having a perfectly healthy, adorable 10-year-old kid, who gets exposed to banned pesticides and overnight can't even do simple tasks?  Well he is more than fine today, thanks to actions that Marilee took. That was the second chapter that led her to start Branch Basics.

Marilee is going to share how she turned this all around. How both she and her son became healthy, and well, and are doing great today. Marilee has helped so many people get better, feel better. And she does it by first simply having them toss the toxins from their lives. And you know what? You can do this too, because she's going to walk us through the basic, toxin tossing process. And yes, we're going to chat about the tech toxins too, like EMF's, which she definitely wants you to avoid. 

Marilee's a board certified nutritionist, and a certified building biologist, and a materials building specialist. Wow, what an authority.  And I'm so happy that you're going to listen in on our conversation, because her stories of healing give us really super practical tips. You're going to walk away knowing what to do next.  We can incorporate this into our homes, for us, for all the people we love to feel better and thrive.


Be Well!

August Brice 

Here's the full transcript of the podcast: 


Marilee Nelson:

We need to think about this, why would a country allow chemicals in our food, in our products, et cetera, that affect our mental, our physical, and our emotional wellbeing? We need to, as the consumer, become educated. We need to take action by going to the store and buying only safe products. That's going to create the change here.


August Brice:

Hi, there. Welcome once again to the Tech Wellness podcast. We talk about thriving with technology care, about enjoying tech in smarter, easier, and healthier ways. I'm August Brice and today I'm welcoming Marilee Nelson. She's the founder of Branch Basics, human safe cleaning products. Branch Basics is fast becoming a household name. In fact, it's the only name that you're going to find on anything in my house that's used to clean. You're going to get to know Marilee today. And she was dealt a tough hand, but she turned it around and turned it into her life's work, her passion, and really fabulous success. So, you guys, can you imagine at just 23-years-old being told you're going to need a kidney transplant just to survive? And then can you imagine having a perfectly healthy, adorable 10-year-old kid who gets exposed to banned pesticides and overnight can't even do simple tasks?


August Brice:

Well, she's going to share how she turned this all around. How both she and her son became healthy, and well, and are doing great today. Marilee has helped so many people get better, feel better. And she does it like this simply by tossing the toxins from their life. And you know what? You can do this too, because she's going to walk us through the basic, and this is a tongue twister, toxin tossing process. And yes, we're going to chat about the tech toxins too. So she's a board certified nutritionist, and a certified building biologist, and a materials building specialist. And I'm so happy that you're going to listen in on our conversation, because her stories of healing give us really super practical tips. You're going to walk away knowing what to do. And we can incorporate this into our homes, for us, for all the people we love to feel better and thrive. So here she is, Marilee Nelson from Branch Basics.


August Brice:

Marilee, welcome.


Marilee Nelson:

Hi, August, how are you?


August Brice:

I'm so happy to be talking to you. How are you?


Marilee Nelson:

I'm great.


August Brice:

Thank you so much for being with us today. I know you've got an incredible story and you've created an incredible product and I can't wait to talk in detail about that. But first, I understand we're so much alike in terms of starting our wellness journeys a long time ago, way before it was cool. And that we both lead a clean, and green, and EMF-free lifestyle. And so I want to know how did you start?


Marilee Nelson:

All right. Well, I always have to say that when I came into this arena, I was completely in the dark and without a clue that anything I ate or anything I had contact with affected my health and yet, I was very sickly growing up. I had a fever of unknown origin, that's what the doctor said, a low level fever. And-


August Brice:

For how long?


Marilee Nelson:

I would have it just almost all the time. I was antibiotics, medication, and then I'd have a fever. It would spike maybe up to a 105, 106 maybe every three weeks, six weeks. You couldn't tell when it would, but I also had a lot of allergies. I had horrific periods. I had asthmatic bronchitis. And by the time I was 23, my general practitioner doctor said, "I think we need to do exploratory surgery." And he got with 11 of some of the best doctors in the Houston Medical Center and I was on the operating table with all of them there. And I was actually decided before the surgery, because I knew they were going to figure out what it was I needed, maybe the right pill, the right therapy, et cetera.


Marilee Nelson:

After the surgery, I was laying in my hospital bed, I was on morphine. And my doctor came in and he came to the side of my bed and held my hand. And he said, "Marilee, I'm really sorry, the surgery did not quite go the way we would have hoped." And I looked up at him. And then the next thing he said, he goes, "And you're never going to be able to have children, because you have endometriosis so severe. And you're going to need to go on dialysis and you'll need a kidney transplant.”


August Brice:



Marilee Nelson:

Well, I don't know what happened, but inside of my mind, I had to shift and I just looked at him. I said, "Oh my gosh! I'm just glad you're not God. What if in a year you all have figured out what I needed to do and I've lost my kidney? Or what if in five years?" I said, "No, I know there's another way." And you know what? I never looked back. I was kind of at a crossroads right there. Was I going to take road that the trusted doctors that I loved were saying I should do? Or was I going to go a different path? And literally I took the road less traveled.


Marilee Nelson:

And I will tell you that in my mind at that point, I thought I was going to find the right pill, the right therapy. So I was looking in medical books, et cetera. And lo and behold, it ended up I was led to a doctor, a medical doctor in a Boston hospital that was using food as medicine. And when I was told that I needed to stop eating the sad standard American diet and eat real food, literally I had no frame of reference for that.


Marilee Nelson:

I looked at him and said, "What do you mean? You're saying I haven't been eating real food?" He said, "No, you haven't. And if you want to avoid a kidney transplant, you will have to eat only real food and no food with chemicals." So this was a whole new ball game for me.


August Brice:

So how long did you deal with your kidney issues and obviously feeling badly until you found this doctor?


Marilee Nelson:

It was a while and I was very sick. I used to call myself a propelled shell, I was so weak. I would just mentally make my arm move up to my mouth. My arm weighed 500 pounds. Everything was such an effort. So there's a lot of detail in here, but the bottom line is within 10 days of eating a nutrient rich diet prescribed for my kidneys, my life was turned around. I literally was off all medication. I've never been on even an aspirin or over-the-counter prescription drug or anything ever since. And after the dust settled after a few months, I didn't have my menstrual cramps anymore. This incredible resolution of symptoms occurred and I was aghast. I wanted to get up on the Empire State Building and scream, "Why didn't someone tell me?”


August Brice:

Or your mom and dad. Why didn't somebody tell your mom and dad?


Marilee Nelson:

I'd love to just write a book. Why didn't someone tell me? Sometimes I missed six weeks of school. And all I would have had to have done is my mother would have just had to shop for vegetables and fruits and real food. So I changed my career path. I studied to be a medicinal cook and I cooked for people with chronic illness. And I saw just absolutely how much of a difference it made when you got rid of the chemicals and ate real food. It was-


August Brice:

Yeah, gave your body the tools it needed to heal itself as our bodies so beautifully do. I don't know if you know, but our friends have told us that we have similar stories. You've probably heard that, but didn't know mine either. Because yours is fabulous and I'm so happy that you were able to... I mean, I'm so sad that you had to go through your life till that point at 23, but at one point in my life, similarly, I was diagnosed with Crohn's disease, MS, and lupus all from one 10-day stay at Scripps. And my journey wasn't as easy as the food, unfortunately. I had always been eating organic from the time I was 18 and this happened about five years later, but I was in a very serious car accident. So that really added layers of issues on top of it. But I think we both ended up at the same place, feeling probably better than you ever have before today, right?


Marilee Nelson:

That's right.


August Brice:

And leading a very toxin-free lifestyle, but completely enjoying life.


Marilee Nelson:

That's right. I wouldn't be here had I not changed my diet. But at that point, I had no idea that there was this entire arena that I had not explored that I didn't realize existed. And I had a son, and when he was 10-years-old, he was extremely chemically injured. And we took him to the doctors and we were told that he would never recover, that he had brain damage so severe, an immune system damaged so severe that he would be a bubble boy for the rest of his life.


August Brice:

From what? What happened?


Marilee Nelson:

He was exposed to several banned pesticides. So I actually said the same thing to that doctor. I just said, "I can't accept this." And he grabbed my hand and he held it and he said, "Marilee, the brain does not repair.”


August Brice:

Oh yes, it does.


Marilee Nelson:

I said that. I said, "I can't accept what the medical world has to say." And then of course maybe 15, 20 years later, we realized the neuroplasticity of the brain. The medical world has totally turned upside down on that. So anyway, he told us to take our son home, create a safe room, only use non-toxic products, and we were going to have to medicate him to control him. I was supposed to give him 23 shots a day, et cetera.


August Brice:

Oh, wow. Okay.


Marilee Nelson:

So he went from being a brilliant, athletic, and very obedient child to being unpredictable, hyperactive sometimes, completely lethargic other times. He couldn't even spell a three letter word or do simple math. It was not good. And we were desperately trying to create a place for him to be able to stay. And I can tell you that the concept of what a safe haven house was then was not clearly understood. And I'll say the same thing, it's not understood today. But anyway, I was trying to do everything they told me to do, and I would go and buy these non-toxic products, so to speak. I'd bring them home, he'd react. He was so sensitive that it was much better if we slept outside.


August Brice:

Wow. So he was the ultimate canary in the coal mine for the chemicals test, right?


Marilee Nelson:

That he was.


August Brice:



Marilee Nelson:

And we couldn't sleep in a tent, we slept open air on cots. And one night I was just lying there, I was thinking, "What have I not done?" And I had this kind of a thought in my head, "Get up and go take the box out of your closet." What I'd done is I'd thrown away everything I thought, but I kept some of my favorite things like my favorite perfume from high school and a few other things. And I'd put them in this box, because I thought, "Well, when he gets better, I'll just pull them out, back out and use them.”


Marilee Nelson:

But anyway, the next day after I had taken them out, my son came in and he kept out. He stayed outside as much as he could just because he felt better outside. But that day he came in and I was making lunch and said, "What'd you do mom?" And I said, "What do you mean?" Boy, I can tell you what, I didn't act like I knew anything. I said, "What do you mean?" He said, "Well, I'm just not feeling like I need to get out of here. I'm not feeling so jittery." I said, "Oh, well then just stay in here until you need to get out." Well, it ended up he stayed the night and I actually was questioning myself. I thought this is great.


August Brice:

Could it be? Yeah, could it be?


Marilee Nelson:

I said, "I've got to understand that." I did not tell my husband what I had done. I didn't want anyone to think I was crazy, but a few days later I was at the grocery store. And as I turned down the cleaning and the pesticide aisle, I just gasped. I went, "Oh my gosh! That is it. These bottles are not only closed, but they're also sealed and I can smell them." And he's so sensitive that he is-


August Brice:

Feeling it.


Marilee Nelson:

[inaudible 00:15:15] from those things in that box are affecting him. I will tell you, it was almost like there had been pressure taken off of him and his body started to... We could tell he was starting to recover. He was comfortable in the house. We kind of hit a baseline with the safe haven. And-


August Brice:

If we give our bodies a base, right? If we give our bodies the base it needs to heal, then they can. And then eventually he probably adapted.


Marilee Nelson:

Yeah. I mean, you have all of these toxic chemicals you're exposed to, when you remove the immune stressors and the body is able to go, "Oh, thank you. Now I can heal." And in this process, which is relevant to what you do, I was desperately trying to figure out how to recover him


Marilee Nelson:

I was desperately trying to figure out how to recover him. And I learned about Bau-Biology and it happened that, that year was the first year the Germans were teaching Bau-Biology in America. And I was a part of that class. And so I learned about how the magnetic fields, the electric fields impacted the body. And at that time, the European said that the number one reason that people with chronic illness do not heal is because of the electric field in the home. So anyway, I studied that, I came home, we tested my son in the bed and it takes one millivolt to operate a pacemaker. And in the bed, his body, it was very high. It was over a thousand field of millivolts. We had some issues with our wiring. So we got that fixed. And also, we get him very aware of the magnetic fields and static electricity fields. And we addressed all of those things. Now, at that time, there were no cell phones. There was no internet, it was a whole another world.


August Brice:

That's so fascinating. And so yes, an EMF is an EMF, they're electromagnetic fields, and they come in all varieties, wireless, electricity, magnetic, and fortunately, most of our bodies can adapt. But like you're saying with your son, same with me, I always said the energy from wireless did not mesh with the energy of my body. I could just feel it from the moment I held a cell phone. It was very traumatic. So I think it's important for everyone to know that, yes, we need to be aware. We don't need to be fearful that our bodies will tell us one day when there's something amiss. And an EMF is a toxin and chemicals are toxins, not all chemicals are toxins, but yes, definitely toxins come in all varieties.


Marilee Nelson:

That's right. So we addressed his thinking, toxic chemicals, the electromagnetic fields. We had him do certain exercises, brain exercises, et cetera. I was homeschooling him. The bottom line is he not only recovered, he's fully recovered. And he ended up going to the Naval Academy, and he got his brains back, and he actually was in Naval Air, flew missions over Afghanistan. And he was in Japan with the Naval Air intelligence. So he absolutely recovered.


August Brice:

I have the biggest smile on my face. And then you also became brilliant. He recovered and you're brilliant and you had to be, right? You learned step-by-step. I'm thrilled.


Marilee Nelson:

Yeah. And I had this growing feeling, it's going, oh my gosh, Americans are living in this low level chemical soup. They have these toxic products throughout their homes that are emitting these VOCs and that their bodies are having to deal with. And so after my son recovered, just through word of mouth, people started calling me and I started working with people all over the country that had had chemical injuries or chronic illness. And I had been [inaudible 00:20:00] don't cook. I mentioned that before. So I was doing work with people all over the country, looking at food, looking at toxic chemicals, and also looking at electromagnetic fields, just from the standpoint of the AC magnetic electric fields and DC fields. So that, what I did with all my clients is I decided that the first thing after they would call, and most of the people that called me were people who'd been to doctors and they hadn't had resolution of their symptoms.


Marilee Nelson:

So I would have them go through what I call now, toss the toxins. And I go to categories by category. Very easy. We just take a box. I get them first to take out pesticides, and cleaning, and laundry products. Like a box, take them out of your house. Just that act creates a dramatic increase in the quality of the air in your home.


August Brice:

I can just feel it. I can just breathe just you saying it. I have that. Well I think once you're sensitive to something, you're probably sensitive to many different toxins. So it just feels so fresh as you say that, it's great. I love your whole detox program.


Marilee Nelson:

Yeah. And what we don't realize is that everyone is sensitive to these chemicals, that we have one in two children in this country with chronic illness. Over 50% of the adult population has some sort of chronic illness. We are in trouble and it has been documented that our exposure to these chemicals also to the electromagnetic fields are causing this rise in degenerative disease.


August Brice:

And not only that, I always believe that even if you don't feel it, even if you think that you feel fabulous, you can feel better when you just step away from the toxins. For sure.


Marilee Nelson:

That's right. So I always say, you don't know how much they impact you until you remove them. You might go, "Oh my gosh, I can't take these things I bought and just take them out." Well, the whole purpose is to change your air quality. And if you don't have replacements for those products, you can put them in a box that is sealed. Put it in your garage, put it in a place where you're not impacting that air quality in your home. And I can tell you, if I had known this when my son was exposed, if I didn't have to go through that learning process, it would not have taken seven years for him to recover. It took us seven years for him to be able to be completely well.


August Brice:

Now you think that if you had done what he could have healed quickly? Because it's amazing that he healed the way that he did.


Marilee Nelson:

Well, let me say this. I have people coming to me all the time. They've been eating healthy. They've been doing good things, but invariably, I find that people are living in homes with maybe hundreds of products sitting in their house. They may not even be using them, but they are impacting their immune systems. They're impacting their bodies. I have parents that will tell me their child with asthma no longer has to use an inhaler. Doesn't have asthma anymore once they removed the laundry product that have fragrance, or maybe the skincare products with fragrance, or maybe scented candles or cleaning products with certain chemicals.


August Brice:

They do sneak into our homes, don't they? And every single one of them is important. And you're really encouraging me and inspiring me to take a look around. I've always been aware, but they tend to sneak in just like an EMF, don't they? Somebody brings you a present or like you said, a candle and you think, "Oh, that's beautiful." And then you forget. We have to be so aware.


Marilee Nelson:

Well, we just have to be educated. And it's really easy. I have this EWG's Skin Deep, on the internet. If you just type in an ingredient on a product and EWG Skin Deep, it'll give you a writing from 1 to 10. We recommend products stay in the home if all of their ingredients have a one or two writing. If it doesn't, then we say toss that toxin and find you an alternative.


August Brice:

Absolutely. Marilee, can I ask you something that happens probably in every neighborhood? What about the community park or the people next door that are spraying? How do you deal with that?


Marilee Nelson:

Well, that is a problem. Definitely, when you notice them one's going to spray or they've done something like that, you keep your windows closed. It's nice to try to educate your community. But I say to my clients, "We go to work, we go to school, we go out and we really can't control that. But what we can control is what's in our house. So if we have removed products with harmful ingredients from our homes, then we have a safe haven." And of course-


August Brice:

Yeah, that's very similar to my theory on EMF too, let's start at home. If we can at least make our homes as safe sanctuary, we're that much further ahead for us and our families.


Marilee Nelson:

That's key. And that's what I teach all my clients, we want to have a safe haven where the body can repair, restore and rejuvenate at night. So therefore you want to have as clean, an electromagnetic field arena in your bedroom, in your house at night, when you sleep, you want to be not breathing chemicals all night. You want to just be able to recharge and refresh.


August Brice:

Such a good point. And are you familiar with the work of Dr. Gunnar Heuser?


Marilee Nelson:



August Brice:

Okay. So you know how he did the brain scans and he's one of the most premier chemical sensitivity research doctors from UCLA. And he's been doing this for what? 40 years, researching chemical sensitivity. And so he did these brain scans and he noticed that the brain scans of people who have chemical sensitivity look very similar to the people who have EMF sensitivity. And what have you found other than, you've told us about your son, how he responded to both, but do you see that with your clients as well?


Marilee Nelson:

Oh my gosh, when I first started out, a hundred percent of my people were chronically ill or chemically injured. I'm not sure what year it started happening, but I started getting calls from people that were having problems with electromagnetic fields. And it came as sort of a rash of calls. There were a lot of people that built homes with aluminum foil in their dry wall. They were chemically sensitive, and when they built, they thought, "Okay I'm going put aluminum foil up so that no chemicals can get in from the plywood or any other material." What they didn't realize is there was an unintended consequence. And with the advent of some of the cell phones, et cetera, frequency cell towers and all, people living in those homes were getting sick. So I started getting call after call and the shift in ratio, a hundred percent chemically injured or chronically ill to EMF rapidly changed to later in my consulting, I considered everybody that calls me to have this issue because it's all part of our total load.


August Brice:

Exactly. I am fascinated about the aluminum. So what those people were doing was creating hotspots and metal does react with the electromagnetic fields. And so I hadn't heard of this before, but that's probably what was happening. Right? They were just magnifying the waves.


Marilee Nelson:

Yes, exactly. So I'll give you an example. I was working with a 25 year-old girl. She was very chemically sensitive. And I said, "Listen, I want you to start thinking about electromagnetic fields." And she goes, "I'm not sensitive to those. They don't bother me." And she was using the phone and et cetera. And I said, "Listen, you need to be proactive and take some preventative steps because it is just like another chemical." She said, "No, I don't think it is." And so I left her on the phone call. I said, "All right, I'm going to tell you three things to do, you think about it. I want you to not sleep with your phone in your bedroom. I want you to not use the phone in the car, and don't charge your phone at night when you sleep. Nowhere in your house, charge it in the morning or in the evening before you go to bed.


Marilee Nelson:

Well, about three months later, she called me... Actually, she had someone else call me. She had taken a four hour trip to her parents, it was thanksgiving. She was on the phone the whole time. By the time she got home, she said that she went into her parents' house. She put the cell phone down on the countertop. She went and lied down. When she got up, she walked over to her phone. She could not even hold it. It just dropped. But anyway, the bottom line, this girl ended up... I had to work with her. She had to live outside. She became completely EMF sensitive. It was a horrific story.


August Brice:

And you know, I hear this lot. I hear from people when I've been to conferences, just for people who have EMF sensitivity. And story, after story, after story is the same. They get an incredibly high one time dose and boom, the body just like chemicals, the body reacts and says, that's it no more.


Marilee Nelson:

That's right. That's right. So anyway, she literally was sleeping outside. She couldn't go in a building. I'm going to give you one more example, just to show you how incredible this whole upswing is with the electromagnetic fields. And we need to really become aware. I had a lady call me and said, she'd been to chiropractor doctors. She was in excruciating pain, her shoulder, her arm, she was almost locked up. She couldn't figure out what was going on. So I went through all my questions, it's like a detective, you just ask question after question. And so I said, "What shoulder is it?" It's her right shoulder. And so I asked her to describe what she did every day. Well, she worked on a laptop all day long. So Well, I said, "All right, here's what I want you to do-


Marilee Nelson:

So finally, I said, "All right. Here's what I want you to do. I want you to take a knife, a butter knife, and I want you to go outside and I want you to pour water on the ground. I want you to stick the knife in the ground and hold the knife. You can do two knives with right and left hand for about three minutes. Do that three times a day, morning, middle day, and the night. I asked her if she had a grounded plug to charge her laptop, a three-prong or a two-prong. She had a two-prong. I told her to get a three-prong. I asked her if she put her hands on the keyboard, just like people do with their laptops.


August Brice:



Marilee Nelson:

I told her to get an extended keyboard-


August Brice:



Marilee Nelson:

... and a wired mouse, extended mouse so that she never touched the keyboard. In two days, she was out of pain.


August Brice:

Oh, yes. Again, the biggest smile on my face. Are you like me? You said you walked down the cleaning aisle and you could smell, because you're home was so toxin-free, the chemicals. When I just see someone with a cell phone in their hand with it up to their head, I physically feel the symptoms. Is that how you are with chemicals, too?


Marilee Nelson:

Well, you sit there and you just go, "Please don't do that." You don't want people to have the consequences. We have these unintended consequences. We have this great technology. We have opportunities to do these things because of technology, and we just need to know how to use it smartly and be aware. In terms of a toxic product, we need to know how to vet and choose safe ones and get the toxic ones out.


August Brice:

Exactly, and we're going to get into that. I think we should add right now that both you and I, I'm sure, are on wired connections.


August Brice:

When we pick up our phones, our phones are wired. Actually, I don't pick up my phone, because I'm sensitive to the magnetic as well. I put it on a stand, and I use a stylus. That works for me.


Marilee Nelson:

You'll probably laugh. I use a landline.


August Brice:

I have one, too. But we're on a computer right now.


Marilee Nelson:

Yes, we're on a computer. Absolutely. I'm wired.


August Brice:

Right, and it just feels so good. I'm sure we're both living in EMF-free environments.


Marilee Nelson:

As much as possible.


August Brice:

Mine's blinking green on the meter, and that's what I like.


Marilee Nelson:

Yes, absolutely, absolutely.


August Brice:

Yeah, and to that end, you have a consulting company, and are you a building biologist?


Marilee Nelson:

Yes, I am.


August Brice:

So I recommend to everyone if you are uncertain at all, the way to know if your home is safe and as EMF-free as possible is to have a building biologist come over and assess your home.


Marilee Nelson:

Yes. That is really a great thing to do. Learning about the individual fields is great. People don't realize if you've got an air purifier and it's running, don't sit right next to it. Put some distance between you. There's all these little steps that I know that you teach and I teach that are simple. You don't even have to think of it anymore. We teach our kids not to touch a hot stove. We teach our kids to practice, well, these steps. We turn off our wifi at night or ideally are just wired. There's a lot of things we can do.



August will be right back with more of the Thriving with Technology Podcast. But first, if you're interested in reducing your exposure to the EMF radiation that comes from all of our digital devices, Tech Wellness has solutions for you. People tell August all the time that reducing exposure helps them sleep so much better. It gives them better focus during the day, and it cures other physical symptoms, like headaches. A great way to start doing it is by shutting down your wifi. That's a big source of radiation in our homes and our offices. Step one might be to hook up one of our wifi kill switches. Super easy to hook up, and a simple touch of the button turns off wifi when you're ready to sleep or you just want your kids to come out of their rooms for dinner.


But the absolute best that you can do is to get rid of your wifi altogether. But don't worry. You'll be browsing the Internet faster than ever when you use our Cat8 shielded cables to connect online. There's nothing faster than Cat8, and it's not just for your desktop. We have adapters that will get you blazing EMF-free speeds on your laptop, on your tablet, and even on your smartphones. We've even put together complete hardware kits that give you everything you need to easily wire up. Check out all the solutions for reducing your EMF exposure today. Visit and search keywords no wifi. Now back to August.


August Brice:

So Marilee, I've been wondering, is there one toxin that you consider more important to remove from your life than another?


Marilee Nelson:

Well, that's difficult, but in terms of toxic products, probably pesticides are at the top of the list. Some parts of the country, they don't need to use them that much, but conventional cleaning products also, fragrance products. Then in the electromagnetic field spectrum, I like people to go wired, take wifi out of their house.


August Brice:

Completely, and I'm so excited that we now offer a wire-up kit, because that might seem daunting to someone, what you're saying if they only have a wifi. So I'm really excited that we just tried to make it really simple, because it can be. I know that I was talking to a couple of building biologists about how much does it really cost to wire up your home from scratch? I think they're saying that you can get it done for between 1,500 and 2,000. That's pretty expensive. Eventually, I hope that all new home builds are wired like they used to be.


Marilee Nelson:

Well, that would be glorious.


August Brice:

Wouldn't it?


Marilee Nelson:

Yes, if we get the information out.


August Brice:

We will. That's what we're doing here. So and as far as pesticides go, when my kids grew up and until recently, when I found an organic pesticide service, we had diatomaceous earth all around the border of the house. That was for the spiders to crawl through and scratch through or take their legs off or something because the earth was so fine, and I guess it's real sharp in a spider's world. Then we had borax for all of the ants. What are your go-tos for pesticides for if people have an issue and they don't have a service that uses organic oils?


Marilee Nelson:

Well, we do have some links on our website that if you have spiders, you can look up spiders. If you have roaches, you can look up roaches. One of my favorites is here in Texas, we have a problem with roaches, and you make this little mixture of just very fine corn meal, boric acid, and powdered sugar in equal amounts. You get a tablespoon of each, mix it up like a cake, and then you take the powder and you put it in tops, like tops from-


August Brice:

Lids from things.


Marilee Nelson:

Then you stick it under your refrigerator or under cabinets, et cetera. Literally I'd say in two weeks, you're going to be roach-free.


August Brice:

Oh, that's brilliant.


Marilee Nelson:

It lasts. The roaches, oh, they adapt to pesticides. They get stronger, and then they're not killed. But with this, they don't adapt, and they stay away. It's fabulous.


August Brice:

That's so great. Let's repeat that really quickly. So the mixture is?


Marilee Nelson:

Equal parts of powdered sugar. You get the very fine powdered sugar. Equal parts of corn meal. Get the very fine, inexpensive cornmeal, and equal part of boric acid. You would get that at the grocery store pharmacy area.


August Brice:

Is boric acid borax?


Marilee Nelson:

Well, some people actually do use borax in that recipe. So they interchange it. Borax is not the same as boric acid. Boric acid is more poisonous.


August Brice:

Oh, okay. Yeah, for the ants, I would do granulated sugar and the borax. Boy, once it gets wet, it's a mess. It really is, and dries. Then you have to pick at it to get rid of it. But in the home, tell me what the corn meal does.


Marilee Nelson:

Well, I think it's the sugar. They love the sugar. They get in there and they eat that mixture, and it just kills them.


August Brice:



Marilee Nelson:

The boric acid is what kills them, but the sugar is the attraction. I guess the cornmeal probably, too.


August Brice:

Okay. So now let's get to Branch Basics. How did you start it and why? I mean, I'm sure you were cleaning with toxin-free products for years and years and years before you actually rolled out wonderful Branch Basics.


Marilee Nelson:

Well, I call our products products with a purpose. We have two products, and they literally can replace every cleaning and laundry product in your house.


August Brice:

It's true. Yes. I use them.


Marilee Nelson:

It makes it really easy. The versatility just simplifies your life. I say it's a minimalist dream. You take out all your products. You just have these two left, and they work. As I told you with my clients, my first step is take out your cleaning products. Take out your laundry products and pesticides. Then they can use this one product, these couple of products to replace. So it just makes that first step of tossing the toxins in your home so simple and doable. That's basically what we're here for. We've got products that are just a vehicle for our mission. I want to create this healthy home revolution family by family, and that revolution includes electromagnetic fields, tossing the toxic fields and toxic food in your pantry and the toxic products.


August Brice:

You have given us such a wonderful base with the Branch Basics formula. Like you said, it is a minimalist dream. I'm not a minimalist, but I feel so healthy. I feel like I'm living right when I take my concentrate and I mix it with this much water for the windows and this much water for a soap for my hands. I know that you guys say that it's human-safe and I could eat it. I've never tasted it. Have you?


Marilee Nelson:

Accidentally, actually. I don't really say you could eat it. We went through extensive testing. We went through about 100 iterations. We did not want our product to irritate the eyes, irritate the lungs or the skin. So we used a lot of my clients as testers when we were trying to figure out the formula. Then when we finally got where we are now, we decided, well, we wanted to get some third-party independent testing. So we sent samples to a company that puts the product in contact with skin-like tissue and eye-like tissue. Our product came back 100% not skin-irritant. The CEO of the testing company actually called me and said, "Wow. We've never had a product test just like the control. Who was your chemist? What are you doing?”


Marilee Nelson:

I kind of laughed. I said, "Well, we decided on this formula because of the experience that I had with chemically-sensitive people in my son. I knew the preservatives that were being used in the non-toxic products were problems and some of the other chemicals. So we just were very strict, and I used my client history as the guide for choosing the ingredients.”


August Brice:

How on earth, Marilee, does it clean? Because we're conditioned to believe that we need this chemical and that chemical. I'm not going to name any names, but basic anything you might have to store shelf has what, 10 different kinds of chemicals, probably, in every single package that supposedly help get things "clean." So how does your product actually clean?


Marilee Nelson:

Well, we are a surfactant-based product, and we looked very hard. We wanted originally to create just a soap, a cleaning soap. That's, sorry, a saponified oil and lye, basically. But we could not get a formula that did not irritate the eyes or irritate the lungs when sprayed. Also, soaps leave kind of a soap scum. So we looked to the European Union Cosmetic Directive, and there were a group of surfactants called the alpha-glucosides that were sanctioned for skin and baby care. Also, they had no toxic byproducts, et cetera. So we used the alpha-glucoside, this decyl glucoside that's in our product, coco glucoside, and then we have this mix of wonderful other ingredients that synergistically just were a win. I mean, we're so grateful that it works so well. Our first priority was human health, but we knew, "Okay, heck, who cares if it's safe if it doesn't work?”


August Brice:

Right, and it works. It definitely works. So have we been overcleaning? Have we been trying to kill too much bacteria, because does the Branch Basics kill bacteria on our kitchen counters?


Marilee Nelson:

Branch Basics is a soap or surfactant cleaner, and soap is used to remove germs. Now, we just had the COVID crisis come up, and so this has been very much brought to the forefront, how important it is to understand how to clean. The CDC recommends you use soap on all surfaces that you clean in the home and only use a disinfectant on frequently touched surfaces, because, for one thing, these chemicals, they can cause bacteria resistance or antibiotic resistance, just like you were mentioning. If we're using too many chemicals, it can cause destruction of the microbiome, even. So we don't really need these harmful chemicals in our homes for claiming, and an interesting fact about soaps is that they found that the coronavirus and many of the other viruses and some bacteria have what's called a lipid layer. Soaps literally just dismantle that, break it down and destroy the Channel that, break it down and destroy the virus. And I'm sure you've heard the CDC say, "If you want to wash your hands, use soap and water.”


August Brice:

Yes. And-


Marilee Nelson:

Yeah. And they warn, only use a sanitizer if you do not have soap and water with you.


August Brice:

Exactly. And that's always been just intuitively how I'm sure you were just like me. It's like, "Oh no, don't use that sanitizer. It just doesn't feel right. It doesn't feel right to take all of the good and bad bacteria off your skin at once.”


Marilee Nelson:

No, and we found with COVID, the New York Times had an article last March and said, "Wait a minute. Polluted air, harmful chemicals in your air, disrupts your immune system making you more vulnerable to catching viruses, COVID contagious illness." So, from this hardship of COVID, there's been a bright light shown on how we need to use safer products in our homes.


Marilee Nelson:

The poisonings have been up. And there's just more awareness. So that's a good thing that's coming out of this.


August Brice:

Great. Yeah. Thank you for bringing that up and explaining it to us. And also, I don't know if you are aware of this study, but I recently had Lee Johanson on a podcast. And he said that the biggest concern that he had was a research study done two years ago that found that when our skin is exposed to just plain old wifi and cell phone radiation, that the bacteria becomes antibiotic resistant.


Marilee Nelson:

I love it that you're bringing this up. This is so important.


August Brice:

Uh-huh (affirmative).


Marilee Nelson:

It is because, are you familiar with Dr. Klinghardt?


August Brice:

Sure. Yes.


Marilee Nelson:

Okay. He did studies with [inaudible 00:50:03] cages where he put mold. This was one of his experiments. And he had mold that was exposed to wifi and mold that wasn't. And the mold that was exposed, it mutated, became more virulent, grew faster.


August Brice:



Marilee Nelson:

And when you think about how we're so upset today about how grains are moldy, et cetera, and all. Well, years ago, we didn't have that problem. You could go to Whole Foods and buy grains in bins. And they weren't moldy.


Marilee Nelson:

Today most people, or a lot of people do not buy in bins because there's a lot of mold issues. And one of the reasons is, I'm sure what a lot of people are concluding is that molds, also viruses, bacteria, our microbiome, there is a reaction. There is a problem. The viruses are more virulent. They are multiplying, et cetera.


August Brice:

And so it's so important that we give our bodies a fighting chance and toss the chemicals. Use a beautiful cleaner like Branch Basics. And I love the way that the laundry comes out. I put the oxygen boost, into the washing machine. And also the concentrate that I've made into the laundry detergent. It's a great concept, really it's fabulous.


August Brice:

And the only thing is, is that, what do you say to people who say, "But it doesn't smell clean?" Because they're not smelling a fragrance. Do you ever recommend, I also have the dryer balls, maybe putting an essential oil on a dryer ball?


Marilee Nelson:

Yes. People can do that if they choose for sure. We recommend that you use an organic or a wild crafted essential oil. Because the ones that are less expensive are typically processed with a solvent. And those are toxic chemicals. So yes, a good quality essential oil can be used if you would like.


August Brice:

And do you put them on the dryer balls? Or do you put them into the rinse container in your washing machine? How do you advise people to do that?


Marilee Nelson:

Some people will put it in their dryer ball. Some people will put it in the concentrate or the cleaner, their laundry solution.


August Brice:

Great. Okay. That's a great tip I've been wondering. Because of course the clothes are clean and then they just smell like clothes.


Marilee Nelson:

That's right.


August Brice:

We're just so conditioned with this whole fragrance thing. And I love that there's no fragrance in Branch Basics because that's been, I know you can give us a little information on how incredibly toxic fragrances are.


Marilee Nelson:

I would like to do that actually. You asked the most toxic products, they're pesticides I said. Well, pesticides and fragrances both have something in common. One, and I'm talking about synthetic fragrance now, which is a blend proprietary ingredients. It's not just one chemical. It may be hundreds by the way.


Marilee Nelson:

But pesticides and fragrances are called asthmagens. They cause asthma. They're neurotoxic. They affect the nervous system. They are carcinogenic. They can cause cancer. They are endocrine disruptors. They disrupt our hormones. They are allergens. They're absolutely devastating to expose ourselves to.


August Brice:

So, this is anything that has a fragrance? Or when we see natural fragrance, does that mean that we're safe?


Marilee Nelson:

Like I'm saying, if it's an essential oil that's organic or wild crafted, yes. But if it's a synthetic fragrance, you're going to know. It'll say, you can tell if you've got a synthetic fragrance. Because if a company that's going to spend the money and do an organic essential oil, they're going to say that on the label. They'll just say the word "fragrance" on labels, it's synthetic.


August Brice:

Okay, great tip. When you're reading the label, looking for all those things that you can't pronounce, also, if you see fragrance, stay away.


Marilee Nelson:



August Brice:

Okay. Thank you. Wow, this has just been amazing. Thank you so much, Marilee is there anything else? If there's one thing that you want people to know today, what is it?


Marilee Nelson:

I want to encourage people to just stop and think a minute. I mean, I'll just relate back to the aftermath when I avoided a kidney transplant and I became a completely different person. We need to think about this. Why would a country allow chemicals in our food, in our products, et cetera, that affect our mental, our physical, and our emotional wellbeing? We need to, as the consumer, become educated. We need to take action by going to the store and buying only safe products. That's going to create the change here.


Marilee Nelson:

And once you really realized the reality of this, it's just common sense. I mean, why would you want to sit there and breathe something that is really the reason why you have migraine headaches? You take it out of the house and go, "Oh my gosh, I'm not having headaches anymore.”


Marilee Nelson:

We just don't realize how much they impact us until we take them out. And if someone's skeptical, because I'm sure people go, "Well this can't be." Well, I invite you to do an experiment. It's not that hard. Get a box, go through your kitchen, your bathroom, your closets. Gather up those products. Take them out, put them in your garage. Wait a weekend. See what happens.


Marilee Nelson:

Maybe you have to take Claritin because you have allergies. And now, you're going, "Oh, I'm not having that problem." Or your allergies are better. Or you're thinking better. Your kids are less irritable. I cannot even begin to tell you the stories that are so just heartwarming when people are so excited that they have tossed the toxins. And it's really, it doesn't cost them money.


Marilee Nelson:

It's free. You just pick them up and get them out. And voila, you've got improved air quality.


August Brice:

That is so good. Yes. Go ahead.


Marilee Nelson:

And same thing with the electromagnetic fields. All right. Let's just turn your WiFi off.


August Brice:

And I hear the same stories. I have so many moms that say, "Oh my gosh, I turn off the WiFi and the kids are sleeping through the night. Or I turn off the WiFi and now my kids are napping." It's true.


August Brice:

These are experiments that we can do ourselves. And thank you for reminding us that we have the power.


Marilee Nelson:

We do.


August Brice:

At the store and at home. We can be mindful consumers. Thank you so much.


Marilee Nelson:

It's been so much fun.


August Brice:

It has. I just want to call you back and chat some more.


August Brice:

Thank you Marilee Nelson.


August Brice:

Marilee Nelson, the founder of Branch Basics, the power of pure. I use the booster and I use the concentrate and I clean everything in my home. My laundry is clean. My mirrors are clean. The windows are clean. The floor is clean. The tables are clean, all with Branch Basics.


August Brice:

So I'm going to put a link to Branch Basics. I'm also going to put a link to Marilee's story, which is detailed and wonderful. I encourage you to read it. You know, Marilee also advise me to write my story. And so I did. And I'll also put a link to that in the notes, as well as links to other things that Marilee And I talked about.


I've lived toxin free for about 40 years now. And in the beginning, that meant just vinegar to clean the floor, borax, to do the laundry. But now Marilee with her Branch Basics really makes it simple. And the cleaning products really work. They really do. I hope that you'll try them.


And as always, my biggest takeaways here, Marilee's reminder that most of us are living in what she called a low level toxic soup. Gross, right? It doesn't have to be that way. We know what to do. I took the cue and I grabbed a box. I walked all around my house, picking up anything that had an unnatural fragrance or a chemical that I couldn't pronounce. And I tossed it out. I did. It's in the garage, far away from our living space. Because the toxins really do creep in from time to time. And you just have to keep it in check.


And it's most important as she said, to make sure your bedroom is a safe Haven. I couldn't agree more so you can rest and rejuvenate, no EMF, no chemicals, no fragrance. If it says fragrance, it's most likely chemical. So look for those words that say organic or natural oil.


And finally, yes, electromagnetic radiation, wireless energy is a toxin. Marilee confirmed that. It's actually classified by the World Health Organization as a class 2B possible carcinogen. Toss it by wiring up Marilee and I are definitely on the same page here.


So I hope you'll tune in next week as we talk to another world changing woman. She's truly living healthier and happier with technology by making sure that her family lives in balance with tech. And she does this by unplugging with her kids every summer and making magical memories. So it's going to be really inspirational. And you're going to get great tips from her too.


And if you haven't yet, go back and listen to the man who makes EMF meters. Also, we had the world's most renowned and respected female internet addiction specialists who actually coined the term internet addiction. And please listen to the incomparable Dr. George Carlo, who ran the original research study, the big one, decades ago that found out that our phones weren't as safe as the mobile companies were pretending they were. And really that started this whole movement. And you can hear him here on Thriving With Technology.


So listen, rate, subscribe. I'd be so honored. I love sharing information that can help you live safer, healthier, and happier in our digital world. Be well.


]]> 2021-06-14T15:01:59-07:00 2021-08-27T11:52:03-07:00 Thriving with Technology Podcast: FCC Law Suit Theodora Scarato Environmental Health Trust Jadian Brice

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Why The FCC And Big Wireless Are Listening To These Women with Theodora Scarato, Executive Director of the Environmental Health Trust. 


You’re in for a treat.  Theodora is awesome and is really on the front lines of trying to educate us all, including the FCC, schools and Big Telecom about the potential hazards of 5G.

Let me tell you about Theodora:  She is not only the executive director, she’s also the lead policy analyst and researcher for the EHT database on international actions– the most comprehensive collection of information on policy actions on cell phones and wireless.

She published a landmark paper on why and how to reduce radiofrequency wireless in buildings —and she presents to important organizations like the National Institutes of Health, the University of California and the American Federation of Teachers.  

Before that, she was a practicing clinical psychotherapist, working with children. Her research interests include not only the effects from radiation exposures but also the social emotional effects of technology overuse. 

If you follow  @techwellness  you may remember the Environmental Health Trust because we talk about them often.  It’s a non profit founded in 2007 by Dr. Devra Davis as platform to advocate and educate us about environmental issues like climate change and EMF’s.  

About the time they were starting, I was making my first video, showing people that radiation coming from their phones was just the same at the energy coming from their microwaves.  

The Environmental Health trust was one of the few voices out there with fact-based information.  And they have remained so to this day—which is even more important, because so many people are talking about emf these days, and so many of them don’t know what they’re talking about!  EMF is a complicated topic.  And there's a lot of information out there that just is not true.

That’s one of the reasons I’m excited to have the chance to share the organization with you today.  

We’ll tell you how you can learn more, help out and get involved. That  is what Theodora did… she came onboard as a volunteer and moved up to executive director.

You’re about to hear how the Environmental Health Trust has filed a legal action against the FCC- the Commission rubber stamped the extension of antiquated and unsafe testing standards for cell phones.  We get the inside story today.

BONUS LINKS from the Podcast

The Environmental Health Trusts Collection of International Policy Actions On Wireless

Levels Of 5G Mesh Network in Boston, compared to Laguna Beach

Sign Up For July 2nd EMAIL with How To Tell People You Love About Cell and WiFi Boosters

Support the Environmental Health Trust Patreon Program

Wire Up Your Home With The Hard Wire Kit

Know Your EMF Intake with an EMF Meter



Be Well!

August Brice 

Here's the full transcript of the podcast:

August Brice:

Hello, and welcome to the Thriving with Technology Podcast from I'm August Brice and I am so honored that you're listening today. Truly, thank you. Today's episode is my conversation with Theodora Scarato who is the executive director of the Environmental Health Trust. It is an awesome organization and she's amazing. You're in for a treat.


She's on the front lines of trying to educate all of us, including the F.C.C in the form of a legal action, as she calls it, about the potential hazards of 5G. So, let me tell you a bit about Theodora. She's not only the executive director, she's also the lead policy analyst and researcher for the Environmental Health Trust database on international actions. This is a big deal. The most comprehensive collection of information on policy actions on cell phones and wireless.


She published a landmark paper on why and how to reduce radio frequency wireless in buildings, and she presents to very important organizations, like the National Institutes of Health, The University of California, and The American Federation of Teachers.


She's been with the Environmental Health Trust for 10 years, but before that she co-founded several organizations, both locally and nationally that addressed environmental health and safety concerns. Before that, she was a practicing clinical psychotherapist working with kids. Her research interests including not only the effects of radiation exposure, but also like me, the social emotional effects of technology overuse, especially on kids.


So, if you've read any of our articles about EMFs, electro magnetic fields, on Tech Wellness you, for sure, know the Environmental Health Trust, because I talk about them all the time. It's a non-profit founded in 2007 by Dr. Devra Davis, and it's a platform to advocate and educate all of us about environmental issues like climate change and specifically, electro magnetic fields.


In fact, the time they were starting, there I was making one of my first videos, showing people that radiation coming from their phones was very much like that energy coming from their microwave ovens. And the Environmental Health Trust was one of the few voices out there with fact-based information. And they've remained so to this day, which is even more important, because right now so many people are talking about EMF and so many of them really, I have to say, do not know what they're talking about.


EMF is a complicated topic and there's a lot of information out there that is just not true. That's one of the reasons I'm excited to have the chance to share this organization with you today. We'll tell you how you can learn more, help out, and get involved. That's what Theodora did when she came onboard as a volunteer and moved all the way up to executive director.


You're about to hear how the Environmental Health Trust filed a legal action, I like to call it a lawsuit, against the F.C.C. They're saying that the commission didn't protect us consumers when they were stamped the extension of testing standards of cell phones. And that standard, it didn't make much sense way back when they adopted it in 1996, and it really makes even less sense today.


So, if this is your first listen, let me take a second to tell you about Tech Wellness and why I'm here. Tech Wellness is a platform to help everyone maintain a balanced relationship with the technology that we all love. [inaudible 00:03:38] after discovering that I was sensitive to electromagnetic frequencies, EMFs, it didn't feel good. And I was researching and was able to help myself, I realized that we all needed answers and solutions, not only about EMF, but also about online privacy, the blue light that comes from our screens, the overuse and addictions and creating a healthy digital home.


So, I invite you to visit Tech Wellness and join us on the journey. But first, let's spend an interesting few minutes with Theodora Scarato and me talking about EMF, what it's like to sue the F.C.C, and what it's like to live in a wired home. I'll be back afterward with a special offer for you and information on how you can get involved. Enjoy.


August Brice:

I'm so excited to be talking to you today, Theodora. I love what you're doing with the Environmental Health Trust, and could you give us the 411 on what the Environment Health Trust does?


Theodora Scarato:

Sure. So, Environmental Health Trust is a scientific think tank, and we publish, research in the peer-reviewed literature related to environment health issues. We also educate policy makers so we give talks to elected officials across the world, in the United States, countries, local cities, and then we also do educational campaigns for the general public, for parents, for people specially who are interested in protecting themselves from cell phone and wireless radiation, teaching them how to reduce exposure and why they should reduce exposure.


August Brice:



Theodora Scarato:

We translate the science. We try to just get this message out, because it's so important.


August Brice:

Great. I love what you do. And the focus really is on EMF, even though it's the Environmental Health Trust, there are other things that you talk about? Or is it specifically EMF?


Theodora Scarato:

Well, right now, we are focused on 5G and electromagnetic fields. However, Dr. Devra Davis and Dr. Ronald Herberman who founded Environmental Health Trust over a decade ago were working on the numerous environmental health issues that we face. Everything from plastics, chemicals in cosmetics, body care lotion, fragrance, breast cancer, the environmental causes of breast cancer, air pollution.




Theodora Scarato:

Dr. Devra Davis worked on air pollution years ago. She also worked on climate change back in the 80s, so there's a long history of working on environmental health issues, but the focus right now of our organization is on cell phone or wireless, and that's because there are so few environmental health organizations that are really giving it what it deserves.


Theodora Scarato:

So we're trying to translate the science for people so they understand the issue and raise awareness and elevate the discussion worldwide.


August Brice:

And so, what do you see as the biggest problem? Why 5G? Why is that a problem?

Theodora Scarato:


Well, 5G is a term that is used for both a new, next generation, fifth generation wireless as well as the dentification, meaning many more cell antennas, cell towers for 4G. So it's really going to mean hundreds of thousands of new cell towers that are shorter called small cells by industry. There's nothing small about them though.


Theodora Scarato:

But they are going to be all over the United States and the world to tie together the new intranet of things. And that is going to-


Theodora Scarato:

That is going to increase the ambient, the levels of wireless radio frequency radiation that we're exposed to in our daily life. Like when you are just standing outside, you're not even on your phone, you're not doing anything with a device, but the levels in the air will be increased, because there'll be a cell tower right either in front of your house or right down the road.

Theodora Scarato:

These antennas that are being put in the name of 5G are closer to humans than ever before in history, sometimes 10 feet from your bedroom window.


August Brice:

I am so, so glad that you're spreading that word, because it is the proliferation of all these different, like you said, small cells. And I will put a link to a video that I did a few years ago. I was in Boston and eating outside, staying downtown, and one day there as an Apple store, so I thought, "Oh, I want to see what the radiation level is at the Apple store is," because I always have a meter.

August Brice:

And so I went into the Apple store and I looked around and I registered on my meter and I walked outside and the thing shot up 10 times, 10 times more than in the Apple store where there we tablets and iPhones and all kinds of things on was right outside. And I walked up and down the streets and I was just like, "Wow, what's going on?"

August Brice:

I didn't understand it, but a couple weeks later I was researching it once I got home and I found out that Boston had the first small cell network, and that was it. I was experiencing that ambient radiation. And I was just so happy that I lived in Laguna Beach and that wasn't going to happen here, but now it is.


August Brice:

And you are, the Environmental Health Trust, is attempting to slow down that proliferation. Can you tell us if you've had any success?


Theodora Scarato:

Scientists who are part of Environmental Health Trust have signed onto an appeal to halt 5G until safety can be ensured through adequate research on the subject. And we already have more than enough research showing harmful effects from all the frequencies that we're using now with 3G and 4G.


Theodora Scarato:

So, have we been successful? I believe we really have at several levels. Around the world, there are numerous cities that are calling for a moratorium on 5G. Over 600 cities in Italy, cities in the UK, in Ireland. Gosh, all across Europe as well in the United States, there are several cities that have passed resolutions to halt 5G.


Theodora Scarato:

Now, there are also many cities, especially in California that are working to put in protective ordinances so that when a company wants to put in an antenna, they have to really show that they need to put in that antenna, because what's happening with 5G is the companies are wanting to situate their infrastructure, putting in their equipment for future uses. Uses we haven't even imagined, but that they are imagining. And they just want to put their stuff wherever they want to put their stuff, and they sure don't want people telling them that they can't put their antennas in front of their homes.


So, many communities are saying, "WE don't want to rollout the red carpet for these companies. We want to have control of where we place these antennas. We want to be a part of the decision making process." So there are many cities putting together ordinances which really retain their authority, if that makes sense-


August Brice:

Yeah, it does.

And you help them? You give them the background information, help constituents appeal or what exactly does the ... how can the Environmental Health Trust help?


Theodora Scarato:

So, I cannot, and certainly Environmental Health Trust cannot take credit for all of this incredible work that's happening in the United States. There are many organizations working on this, but we are a part of that in that we put together science which is used in many cities. We have, on, you can go to our website, we have resources including what the science says. We link to the science, because we are contacted by people all the time and they say, "Environmental Health Trust, I know there's probably a problem with this, but when I talk to my council members, they say that there's no science. Where's the science?"


So we want to make sure that people have access to those [inaudible 00:12:00]. We do give talks around the country, so people will contact us and we will present on different panels. There's also other organizations doing that too. You can go to Physician for Safe Technology, Dr. Joel Moskowitz at Safer EMR. There's also a group called 5G Crisis, which has resources for people, fliers for going door to door, and signs and so forth.


So there are a lot of people working on this. We're not the only one, but we are the only organization which will ... publishes the science and educates community members. And our scientists are really some of the leading scientists publishing in the field.


August Brice:

I quote the Environmental Health Trust constantly and link to you all the time. I am so pleased with what you're doing. And I think that we need to talk about the really huge move, there's a lawsuit that you have brought, and you're named in it to the F.C.C. You are suing the F.C.C?


Theodora Scarato:

Well, it's a legal appeal, so it is not a lawsuit where we're suing for damages. What we are doing is trying to get to the bottom of the problem. When you first heard about this and say, "Wait, what do you mean there's a problem with my cell phone? Didn't they test it? How did this happen?"


I mean, if you want to get to the core of the problem in the United States, the problem is that the limits that we have, the amount of radiation that we're allowed to be exposed to, those limits are not adequate. Those limits are not protected. They don't protect ... certainly don't protect children's developing brains. They don't protect adults either.


And we have all this science showing harm, but yet they have remained unchanged since 1996. So, what happened was, last year ... it's a little bit over a year now, the F.C.C said, "We don't have to change these 1996 limits." And that is a point where there can be a legal appeal to that determination, and that's what we did.


We have never undertaken legal suit of this kind, but we knew after a lot of consultation that this was really the right move, because we needed to address how the F.C.C had ignored the science, ignored the impacts to human health as well as insects, trees, bees, birds, and had not done, really, had not followed the law. That's what we're contending.


They haven't done a full environmental review. They disregarded the science on the record. They also disregarded the stories and appeals of people who have been injured by microwave and non-iodizing electromagnetic radiation, and they didn't even ... they didn't respond explaining why they ignored any of this information which was on the record.


So our suit, our legal appeal is stating that they need to follow the law and fully review the record. And the F.C.C is not a health and safety agency, so they can't make scientistic determinations. They need to ensure that there's been an adequate review of the record by people who have expertise in those areas. And we do not believe the F.C.C adequately showed that in their determination that the 1996 limits were safe, which they are not.


August Brice:

They are not, I agree. So you got their attention. On your site, I think you're showing all of the communication back and forth. And so, where is it standing right now?


Theodora Scarato:

So first we filed. Then there's a series of back and forths where the lawyers write a brief and then there's response from the F.C.C. We actually had the court hearing on January 25th of this year, and it went better than we could have expected.


There were three judges on the panel and basically it's a time when the judges who have read the briefs can ask questions of the petitioners as well as the F.C.C. So, they asked such pointed questions. They were asking, "How did you make the determination of safety?" To the F.C.C, really grilling the council.


And it's clear to me that they dug in. One judge even said to the F.C.C, "I'm going to tell you why I'm inclined to rule against you." In saying, you tell me why I shouldn't, because I mean, when we read the F.C.C determination that safety that they didn't have to change the limits, I have to tell you, to me, it was like it's so clear that the F.C.C did not follow the law.


And I'm really hopeful. We are cautiously optimistic in this case. And what it will show is that the 1996 limits, these outdated limits, do not reflect a full review of the latest science.


August Brice:

How was that question answered that the judge asked? Was it a good answer? Was it one that ... "Oh, okay. I get it. Just didn't know.”


Theodora Scarato:

The council tried to put forward that they made the determination of safety and that they ... they put forward what the FDA, a letter from the FDA. But then the judges were like, "Well, okay. Except the FDA is only talking about cell phones and cancer. But what about cell phones that are always in the hand? What about iPads that are in use? What about cell towers? What about cumulative exposure?"


This was something we brought up, was the limits that we have, the so-called safety limits, in which there is no safety, they do not account ... they were not developed to address long-term exposure, years of exposure. And the judges really honed in on that and were asking the F.C.C, "Well, what do you mean? Did you make a determination based on studies of cumulative exposure?" I can't say that the F.C.C had a full answer to the questions that the judges put forward. We have it all on our website at You can listen to the court proceedings and hear it for yourself.

August Brice:

It is fascinating. I encourage everyone. I was reading it yesterday and it's amazing, that they're even responding, because these are all of the questions that so many of us who've experienced the biological effects personally have. Like, great, how's this happening? But anyway, as far as the biological effects go, the old law really talks about the heat effects of technology. And that's what you're trying to get them to look at, that there's more than the heat effects. There's thousands and thousands of research studies showing other kinds of biological effects.


Theodora Scarato:

That's right. So this is a concept, this concept of heating effects versus non-heating effects or you'll often hear it termed thermal versus non-thermal. Thermal like heating.


August Brice:

Right, heat.


Theodora Scarato:

So we had that in the brief, and as you know, it takes a minute to know what in the world we're talking about, because it's technical, but the judges totally got it. They said to the F.C.C council, when she was asked ... so let me back up a minute.


You probably heard the statement that ... or industry will often say, "Our limits are safe. They're 50 times safe. They're so safe. So safe." And the F.C.C is putting forward that there's a 50 fold safety factor. Now, the judges asked about this and the council was saying, "Our limits are so safe. We have this 50-fold safety factor."


Then the judge said, "But that's only based on thermal, on heating." I mean, she said it. She totally understood, because it's true. This limit, this limit that we have is only based on the outdated theory that heating is the only harm.


August Brice:

And heating only goes, what, a few millimeters into your body, the heat. That's what they're protecting us from.


Theodora Scarato:

Because, obviously, microwaves, this radiation is ... microwave radiation, you wouldn't want to cook your brain, so they try to keep it so that it's not damaging tissue. But I'm going to tell you, I mean, the cold, hard truth, if you look at the limits that we have from 1996, they're based on studies about 10 to 20 years prior. And it's not like they really even knew when there was heat damage.


I mean, it's really that they had these rodents and they had a rectal thermometer and they were trained to always press a lever for food when they were hungry. And they started heating the animals up and when the animals stopped pressing the lever for food, even though they were hungry, that's where the scientists said, "This is it! This is the level of harm.”


August Brice:

When they were about to die?


This is antiquated research. It's called behavioral disruption. They said, "The level of behavioral disruption is here and this is what we know is unsafe." It's crazy. I mean, it's shocking that that's what we're relying on, and now what's happened is all of these studies, these thousands of studies that show harm, every time there's a study, industry says ... criticizes it for this or that and says, "Well, you have this problem or that problem." Or, "No, we're not going to count that because of this problem.”


Theodora Scarato:

And that is not a way to look at the body of science, because every study that has been done, every study has limitations. There's always issues with studies.

August Brice:

Of course.


Theodora Scarato:

You have to look at them as a whole. How could there be thousands of studies that show effects? And all of them wrong?


August Brice:

It's so interesting, because it comes down to the basic idea that if they can penetrate our bodies ... and I was interviewing [inaudible 00:23:08] Hanson last week, and he said way back 30 years ago or 25 years ago, he had two women ... because there was an argument that it doesn't penetrate, it only goes a couple millimeters into your skin. It's harmless.


August Brice:

And so he had two women squeeze a phone between their bodies, they hugged really tight, and then he made a phone call and then instantly, the signal came. And so he said, "Well, obviously it's going through their bodies." And then flash forward 25 years, and there's a video with Tom Wheeler of the F.C.C and they have their annual ... well, actually, he's from New York Wireless. And New York Wireless has their annual convention where they show all the great new things that are happening.


And I have this video on the 5G story and it shows him talking to one of the students about this great new thing he's doing with 5G and because of the problem that 5G, our bodies get in the way of the 5G wave so that millimeter wave interferes with communication with ... our body interferes with the communication, so what are they going to do?


And I'm thinking, "Okay, clue. Your body is interfering with that millimeter wave. What's happening to your body?" They don't even want to think about it. They want to put another signal booster on this corner, that corner, that corner to stop the problem of our bodies interfering with that wave. It's so logical that obviously it's having a biological effect.



August Brice:

You understand the technology and you enjoy using it like I do, where is the disconnect? Why is it just moving forward so quickly and we're being inundated with all this radiation and all of this technology without any thought? What do you think the core of it is?


Theodora Scarato:

It's definitely being absorbed into the body. I mean, that's a fact. That's what both our scientists and scientists who work for industry are always doing studies looking at how deeply is it being absorbed? What rate is it being absorbed? And then they have a limit that is considered safe by the F.C.C.


But that limit is kind of like a 200 mile an hour if you're on a highway limit. It's so high that we can always need it. No one can ever exceed that limit. You'd have to be speeding to exceed that limit, and it's just absolutely non-protective.


I think the core of it is money. I think this is about money, the deep pockets of industry, the ability to fuel the disinformation machine. I mean, we're shocked at the number of articles that come out in the process that talk about how 5G is safe or wireless is safe. And if you take the time to go deep into the sources, we end up going to either groups that are either funded by industry or they don't actually land anywhere. They sort of just go on and on, one media piece after another, and the question is, how does that even happen?


Because when you look at the science, it's there. There is study after study after study linking wireless radiation to harmful effects. Our scientists have published, Dr. Hardell's team has published studies that have stated, "This radiation is a human carcinogen." There are cellular effects.


There was just a study ... well, actually, it was a report looking at the published science on oxidative stress out of this Swiss expert group [Bar-on-ness 00:26:52] and they looked at the studies on oxidative stress and determined that there are effects at very low levels and that children and the elderly are more at risk. And, of course, oxidative stress can lead to a myriad of effects in our body.


So, why would be increase our exposure to something that is going to stress us out at the cellular level? And with 5G, you hear, "Oh, it doesn't really penetrate the body that much." Well, it only goes into the skin or we've even heard it bounces off the skin-


August Brice:

The biggest organ of our body, our skin.


Theodora Scarato:

It's the biggest organ of our body. And our skin has immunological effects. If something thinks that happen in our skin, ultimately can affect our entire body. Like when you go out in the sun, makes you feel good, get the vitamin D. The things that happen that then have a cascade effect to the rest of our body.


And there are scientists that are publishing on how 5G is going to be more harmful because of the intensity of the exposures, the combination of the increased radiation with all the other environmental toxins we're exposed to on a daily basis. I mean, that's a whole issue that's being ignored. Our total body burden of toxic exposures.


August Brice:

Have you seen antennas come down?


Theodora Scarato:

Well, that's a good question. Very rarely. So once they go up, it is very hard to get an antenna down. Now, it is not so hard once they start going up to have communities start becoming aware of this and putting a pause on anymore coming up.


That I've seen. I've seen it in my community, I've seen it in a lot of communities where once they start getting built, people start going, "Well, hold on. What is going on?" And then they start looking into what happened and saying, "No, we got to fix this." So that I've seen. But that's why you want to really work on stopping an installation before it goes up by saying, "where's the permit? Who owns this space? Has the law been followed?"


I mean, so many times we find that the law has not been properly followed in the putting up of these antennas because everything is just moving so far, there's something that's been missed. People haven't been notified properly or we have in our community cell installation, we have over a dozen small cells put in the wrong place or with another problem that don't match their permit. So it gets a little bit technical, but you really need people in your community looking at the permitting process and saying, "Was everything done according to the permit?"

And if it wasn't, whose job is it to fix it? Because I'm telling you that in many communities, there just are not people whose job is to enforce the laws that are already in place.


August Brice:

So how do we start these grass roots efforts? How do we become involved?


Theodora Scarato:

First, find out, do you have a group in your community? I know 5G Crisis has a list of different states and different groups in different states. You might be able to find your town there. Also, connect with either a stop 5G in your ... most states have a stop 5G group or they have a smart meter group which you can connect with. Or they have a safe tech, the name of the state safe tech. And if they don't, you got to start a group-


August Brice:



Theodora Scarato:

... give yourself a name and people will join you. And educate your community, do a webinar, show some videos related to this issue. Get people to where they understand it enough and they're ready to speak to their city council, their elected leaders. And don't take no for an answer.


August Brice:

And on Environmental Health Trust, you actually have resources.


Theodora Scarato:

We do. We have a list of things you can do. We have printable fact sheets you can print out, like have a showing of ... of course, everything's virtual now, but you can do it virtual. You can have a showing of a different movie. You can have a webinar where people can ask questions. You can answer them.


We will sometimes speak at these webinars. We also have a lot of videos you could play of scientists talking about the issue. And people are new to this, they don't even know what an EMF is. We got to go back to basics and explain what it is, explain the science and get people up to speed, have them ask the hard questions. Because once we start talking about this, I think we can get far. It's the fact that we're not talking about it that's slowing this down.


August Brice:

What is your number one thing that you would want people to know today? The number one thing.


Theodora Scarato:

That's a hard question. I would say that there is adequate peer-reviewed published science showing that this type of radiation is harmful to our health. And it is urgent that we get involved. And just like [inaudible 00:32:19], asbestos, DDT, history is just repeating itself and we don't have the years ... we can't wait decades for this to get fixed. We really need to be all hands make light work.


We need all hands on deck on this one. And I'm just trying to be on the right side of history, protect my family and the children of the world, and I'm just hoping everyone just gets involved. If you even do one thing, it makes a huge difference.


August Brice:

One just around your own home? Or one outreach? What's one thing?


Theodora Scarato:

Well, when we do things around home, it makes a difference too, because it's important. Take care of your house and your family, take some steps in your home, but really important to take that step outward. Talk to your friends about it. Go to your elected official and ask what they're doing on it. Anything you do is going to make a difference.


It feels overwhelming, this issue, at first, because wireless is everywhere. It just feels like, how am I going to handle this? I mean, I know, I've been there, but it is incredible what can get done when you just keep your eye on the end game, which is a safe technology for everyone. I fully believe we will get there. I mean, I have not just hope, I know we will fix this. But I also know-


August Brice:

It's just all of our voices together.


Theodora Scarato:

All of our voices. Lift your voice and just-


And there's going to be people who are going to say, "Oh no, that can't be," or "That's conspiracy and fringe," and whatever, but I mean, all across in California, there are cities where they have halted the small cell rollout, slowed it down. They're protecting their cities. There are entire countries that are looking at this differently. They are taking a pause to look at the safety issue. So it's just a matter of time, frankly.


August Brice:

You are the executive director of the Environmental Health Trust, how did you get involved and what's your passion? How did that come about?


Theodora Scarato:

Well, when I first learned about it, I sure didn't believe it. I loved my phone, I loved my wifi, I had just gotten a wifi in our home and a laptop. We all had PCs. And I started digging in the science and I got involved because I have kids and we were using the cell phone all the time. And I think it was a news story, so I started researching it. I couldn't believe what I was reading so I kept digging and digging more, and once I held up the studies, I had these studies saying there's no problem, and then I had all these studies showing a problem.

And I said, "This doesn't work for me. We got a problem here." I just want to win this. I want the people, public health, to be a priority.


August Brice:

This has been something that's been bothering me for 25 years. In fact, when I first discovered that I had a sensitivity, I mean, people thought I was actually crazy and actually, I thought I was crazy, too. I didn't really understand that there's so much more that we know and you're moving this forward so quickly, it's so exciting. I wanted to mention one thing and I wanted to ask your opinion on it, our own input into this radiation environment through boosters that we put on top of our roofs. Boosters and little antennas that we can all buy on Amazon that take our power and project it three blocks, does the Environmental Health Trust have an opinion on that?


Theodora Scarato:

That would be a transmitter that's exposing people in the neighborhood.


August Brice:



Theodora Scarato:

So we recommend against adding transmitters but instead, that there should be a broadband for everyone that is wired that goes wired ... fiber optic or connections that go to your home and then wired inside your home, that way you can have fast, secure internet that is not radiating you. Because remember, the radiation, if it's not in a wire, it is going in the air through your body.


So let's just put it in a wire, not in our body, and get connected to the internet, because people need to have connections. People are using those boosters because they don't have fast or strong enough connections, so we need to ensure that everyone has a connection.


August Brice:

Can we work together on a flier that's appropriate to share with a neighbor?


Theodora Scarato:



August Brice:

Because it's a touchy subject. Because like you said, they're using it because they need a connection. However, their booster is radiating the neighborhood with an invisible, odorless toxin. So, I would love it if we could put something together that would be appropriate and kind for a neighbor to share with another neighbor.


Theodora Scarato:

This is really hard, because I often think with neighbors, going in with love, because ... this is about love for our friends and our family, but I know when we start talking this way, people often feel offended or upset, as if we're attacking them when, really, we're not. We're trying to solve the problem and make the environment safe. So I'd be glad to work with you on that.


August Brice:

That'd be great. Awesome.


Theodora Scarato:

Yeah, we need that. We need all kinds of ways to reach our neighbors.


August Brice:

Before we go, Theodora and I both share something that probably is one of the best things you can do if you're worried about wireless energy, and that's a meter.


Theodora Scarato:

Oh yeah.




August Brice:

Theodora was showing me and EMF radiation meter will enlighten you like nothing else. It's incredible when you go outside, walk around, walk around your home, and you can find these hidden sources that you never even thought would even be ... like a thermostat. You put a new thermostat in your home and you're, wait, what's that? What's that thing flashing? That's a wireless connection that you might not even be using. And just because you're not using it doesn't mean that it's not emitting.


Theodora Scarato:

Those Echo dots and all those wireless smart speakers, they're emitting radiation all the time, just like a wireless router or a cordless home phone, and they're being marketed to kids. So some people have them in every room and they're not aware that they are emitting radiation that your body is absorbing all the time.


August Brice:

So, start looking around, because this is all ... all of these things are adding to the environment. So let's take care of the inside, and then we're going to look outside with the Environmental Health Trust.


Theodora Scarato:

August, I'll tell you one other thing, the way that I ... I forgot to mention this, how I got involved. I was researching also, but I did decide to get a mater. And when I got the meter, it illuminated the whole situation, it gave me information that I was not aware of. So, this was my first meter, was the Acoustimeter. I have a lot of different meters, actually, because they're all important for different things.


But when I went into my home and realized that the cordless home phone was giving me some of the highest levels of radiation, I was shocked, because I learned about this, what's the first thing I did? I said, "Oh, I'm not going to use my cell phone." I start using my home cordless phone not knowing anything because I was uneducated.


And only to find out that cordless home phone was right there by my head for hours a day. I was completely unaware.


August Brice:

Wow. And now there are still so many things. You go to a coffee shop or you're in an office, one of the biggest offenders that drives me nuts? The printer. They have their own wifi in the printer. Unfortunately, you usually have to unplug them to turn them off. Just turning them off, the printer off, usually doesn't do it. If you see any display at all, that means that wifi is there, ready to send out signal.



August Brice:

What about printers with wifi:


Theodora Scarato:

I had my dad, I went to his house with my meter and what do I find? The printer is right next to his body at his office. Now, he might print once a week. He's not printing, but that thing was radiating. And nobody knows that in the fine print warning of the printer, of your wifi router, of this little thing, it says that it should be at 20 cm from your body.


August Brice:

The one thing that I do want to end with right now is just if you can explain to people, because I think we're in the same situation, of living in a wired home. Can you talk about the joys of being in a wired home?


Theodora Scarato:

Oh, I love living in a wired home. I mean, the joys of ... there are some funny things, because sometimes there are cords running around. But when I see a cord, especially my kids were on Zoom school for a long time, we had four people in the house all connected with wires, all doing our work, our school. Sometimes there would be a cousin over who was also connected, and yet there was no wireless.


Theodora Scarato:

It's really possible to do this. I am so thankful we made the switch we made. I'm going to tell you, it took me a while. At first, I just turned off the wifi at night, then I bit the bullet and I was like, "I am going to hard wire this computer, because I'm learning about this issue of wifi." We did it so many years ago and I wish I had done it sooner. All I had to do was get that ethernet cord, the adapter, plug it in, and then I got fast internet and no radiation. I'm just thankful. I'm thankful to know about this, and I wish I'd known sooner.


August Brice:

And now it's available. It's readily available.


Theodora Scarato:

It is.


August Brice:

Theodora spoke at the EMF Conference, the recent EMF Conference for educators and doctors, and you talked about ... was it wireless privilege or wired privilege? You said something about how schools in areas of poverty were not given the privilege of having wired.


Theodora Scarato:

Well, there's a couple things that were happening. So, there are schools where companies are promoting 5G in the school and they're' doing it as we're giving back to these schools. They're in inner city, high minority schools, and they're promoting what they're doing, when what they're doing is bringing in more wireless technology to the school.


I would consider it the usage of schools as a playground for companies to test out their product to see what people like. But not even thinking about the impacts to the kids, to their eyes, to their brain. And I was talking about environmental justice issues, because I, and I know yourself, we're privileged to be able to buy an ethernet cord, to buy an adaptor and to hook it up. I had the information, I had the money to buy those things, but there are many people who learn about this issue and they do not have the resources to purchase the ethernet cords.


There are many private schools that are, for example, going wired. They're taking the wireless out. But those are generally private schools. We still need to work on the public schools to get them to understand this. So, there are communities that are being left out. There are, more often than not, at least in my community, the cell towers are in the schools with higher black and brown communities, with higher rates of free lunches programs among the students.


So, this is an important piece of this issue, because we need to get the message out to all communities, not just those who have wealth and who are white, really. I mean, a friend of mine said to me, "Theodora," she says, "Come on, I mean, everyone knows not to keep the phone to your head.”


August Brice:

Oh, do they?


Theodora Scarato:

I said, "No, no, no, no." She said, "Yeah. I mean, everyone knows that." I was like, "No, they don't. They don't know." And many people, especially people of color are using their cell phones more because they don't have access to even internet in the house. They can't afford to have a modem in the house necessarily.


Theodora Scarato:

So they are using their phones for everything, for movies. I mean, I know everyone is using it for everything, but more so because they don't even have the other ways to access. And that device is on the body and in use all the time. And often, if you're in an apartment building and your phone is trying to go out the window to go to a tower, it might be pulling more, because you might have a lower bar, a lower signal.


Theodora Scarato:

There's a lot of work we need to do to raise awareness on this issue in all communities, and everyone should be afforded wired connections. And that's why Environmental Health Trust and I personally am working on advocating in the public school system that every child be provided an ethernet cord and an adaptor for their online virtual learning. This should not be just for people who can afford it. This is not okay.


August Brice:

100%. How can we help? How do we support the Environmental Health Trust?



Theodora Scarato:

Well, you can go to Environmental Health Trust. I will say, we're a non-profit. We are run solely on donations. And we would love your support. And as well, we have a variety of downloadable PDFs you can share in your community. We also have a Patreon program, where you can support us monthly and we have all kinds of meetings, so you can be the first to learn about different ... we have talks with scientists where you can ask questions live. We share information. We have all kinds of ways that you can connect with us and learn more and get educated on this issue.


So we are just trying to elevate the conversation and we need your support. We rely on the support, especially for our lawsuit. So now we are raising funds for our legal action.


August Brice:

Great. We'll put a link and we'll be on it. Love to help.


Theodora Scarato:

That would be great.


August Brice:

Thank you, Theodora. Thank you for talking with us today and just sharing so much about the Environmental Health Trust. Good job. Keep it up, and I'm so glad you're there.


Theodora Scarato:

Oh, thank you, August. I appreciate everything that you've done on this issue for far longer than I've been working on it. And I just thank you so much.


August Brice:

I’m feeling a lot better now, let me tell you that so many people, so many voices, truth is rising. Together, together we're going to make this change. Thank you.


August Brice:

I hope you enjoyed that conversation with the executive director of the Environmental Health Trust and fellow Greek Theodora Scarato. I know I did. And at the end of this podcast, I like to do my top five takeaways. 


So the first one is that the Environmental Health Trust is defending your health and safety, my health and safety, at the national level, because they know through deep and trusted science that EMF exposure is toxic. Yes, it is. So we know that for sure.


Second takeaway, we need to spread the word and the Environmental Health Trust helps us do that by providing videos you can share, fliers, and by the way, we are going to have the flier that you can give to your neighbor when they put up a booster or especially huge wifi to let them know that they're radiating the neighborhood. We've got that one coming. And the health trust also provides top notch, highly respected thought leadership and research.


Third, I love how Theodora said, "All hands make light work." Because honestly, once you begin to learn about how huge this problem is and how fast the exposure levels are growing, it can seem overwhelming, but if we all work together, we can change this. We can change this for our future, we can change this for our kids.


And fourth, when you have a weak signal at home, don't add a booster. Theodora recommends against adding more wireless signals and their radiation and instead recommends that everyone gets a hard-wired cable for all of their devices.


And finally, don't forget, Theodora shared how originally she became illuminated about the EMF radiation in her environment because she got an EMF meter. And I encourage you, I encourage everyone, to become aware of the EMF levels in their environment by getting a really good certified for accuracy meter. And I'm going to put a special offer with a link in the show notes, because I want you to be able to choose from one of our fabulous meters.


I'm also going to put a link to the Environmental Health Trust Patreon program so that you can support them. And we'll also have some other information in the show notes, so be sure to check that out. And we've got some more great topics coming up, including next week, we're going to be talking to Marilee Nelson, founder of Branch Basics. That's a great one.


And I really encourage you, please give us a rating, give us a like, subscribe, because each time you do any one of those things, more people can find us and learn more about how to be well and healthy and balanced with technology. Until next time, I'm August Brice, Be Well.

]]> 2021-03-12T14:57:58-08:00 2021-08-27T12:05:20-07:00 Thriving With Technology Podcast: Professor Olle Johansson: The OG EMF Researcher Is Worried About The Future Jadian Brice "Please, make these scientists wrong," because if they are not wrong, wow, we could have a future that we need to really care about now."



A quadrillion is 1, followed by 15 zeroes. 1,000,000,000,000,000. Today's guest says that is how much more EMF radiation we are exposed to today than we were a generation ago. 

August talks to Swedish professor Olle Johansson who is a pioneer in the study of the effects of EMFs--which come from all of our digital devices. Beginning in the 1970's, he has published over 600 papers in this field. There are few people who know about this subject--and there's probably no one who makes it more interesting and entertaining. Olle tells us what keeps him up at night these days. Is it 5g? No it's the effect of EMF radiation on all the bacteria around us. Join us for a very interesting episode. 

If you're interested in supporting Olle's very important work, please follow this link:

We always advise people that just because you can't see EMF's, doesn't mean that EMF's aren't there--and if you don't keep your distance, you could experience biological effects.  The best was see the invisible is with your own EMF meter, which we believe every household should have:

Here's the full transcription of our conversation:


Hi there. I'm August Brice. Welcome to Thriving with Technology. Today's podcast is going to be amazing. I'm talking to Professor Olle Johansson. Now, I've had the pleasure of hanging out with Olle a couple of times, first, at the global EMF conference in London a few years ago, and then two years ago, I met him at the EMF conference that Tech Wellness sponsored, the EMF health conference, the very first one.


Olle, this man, is amazing. He is considered the world's leading authority in the field of EMF radiation and the health effects because he was the first one 30 years ago, and he's going to talk about this, to discover what he termed screen dermatitis, which later rolled into electromagnetic hypersensitivity. He was the first one to notice this, talk about it and research it as a professor at the internationally acclaimed Karolinska Institute In Sweden.


He has written, listen to this, over 600 papers and he is still doing research. In fact, just last year, he did research on how EMF affects the honeybees, and he did this in November, and he published it then and, of course, we're going to link to that because I'm sure that we all want to know about it. In fact, he's going to talk about it a little bit in today's podcast. He's going to talk about how he discovered screen dermatitis. And he has a warning for us, which I have to say actually surprised me in its intensity because, although Olle is really a brilliant man with such a huge breadth of knowledge, he always makes the conversation light and fun because he's just a funny guy and so enjoyable to listen to. So this answer is so intense. I think you're really going to want to hear it. So here we go. We're going to dig in. Let's get started with Professor Olle Johansson.


So Olle, welcome. Welcome to Thriving with Technology. How are you?

Professor Olle Johansson:

Well, I'm fine. Here is a beautiful winter's day. It has been snowing quite a lot. Being a Swede, we love of course the white landscape. It looks like a fairytale really. So, I'm feeling fine. Thank you.


That's beautiful. I can just imagine that. So Olle, I got into this field because I've always felt that the energy from my cell phone, the energy from all the wireless devices just messes with the energy of my body. And I realized it the first time I held a cell phone over 30 years ago and I actually have it on video tape. I have opening the present and my husband saying, "Here, use it, try it, try it." And I pick it up and he goes, "Call your mom." And I just press it and my body shakes because I can feel the energy, and it didn't feel good. And so that set me on a quest to figure out why everyone else felt so great using their phones. So anyway, and then later of course, we came to understand that it was electromagnetic hypersensitivity. And that's why I'm so thrilled to be talking to you today because you're really the man who put this together in the first place, right, over at the ... Correct? At the Karolinska Institute.

Professor Olle Johansson:

Yeah, that's very kind of you to say that. And it was long before you were even born because we started already at the end of the 1970s. And one of several focuses at that time was electro hypersensitivity. But another leg was also we had there women that were pregnant, should they sit in front of the newly introduced personal computers or not? And based upon our research as well as other scientists around the world, in Sweden, it was decided that they could opt out while they were pregnant, which I think was a very wise call actually.


And that was your research?

Professor Olle Johansson:



And what did you discover?

Professor Olle Johansson:

Yeah, and it was the other research groups and so, the authorities here in Sweden, they put the data together and we didn't know very much at the time, but people felt we knew enough. And there was actually quite a quest to come up with low radiation computer screens and now, we are talking about the mid-1980s. And that was also very interesting because many companies, they were fighting out the battle and I would say the winners really were Nokia consumer electronics in Finland who developed a very low radiation computer screens for laptops as well as for stationary computers and personal computers. And of course today, if you and I would stand somewhere and shout to people "Come here. Please buy our high radiation computer screen," no one would buy it because people have learned that there is something with electromagnetic fields and health and we better go as low as possible.


Yes, but we still have high radiation screens, correct?

Professor Olle Johansson:



Is that what you're saying?

Professor Olle Johansson:

Yes, because the companies, they reduced dramatically at certain intervals, but unfortunately, that meant with the introduction of [inaudible 00:05:31] high speed electronics and computer pieces that at some other frequency intervals, they became more high radiation, but no one understood that at that time. You have to be ... Believe me, we were all kind of amateurs and probably, we still are amateurs and there is so much to any household or occupational equipment. So one has to think many, many realms when you construct such electronics.


Back in the '70s, you started doing research and we were-

Professor Olle Johansson:

Yeah, yeah, at the end of 1970s. Actually, the year that is important is 1979 because the first cases of electro hypersensitive people were recorded from a country you probably have heard of, United States of America, and from Norway.


Yes. I would be in that group and by the way, I was born, but that was very sweet of you to insinuate that I wasn't. I'll go with that, but yes, so I felt it immediately and it didn't feel good and it remains that way, but what exactly did you discover?

Professor Olle Johansson:

Well, it all started actually, not with a podcast, but with a radio program, and you have to believe me at that time, I wasn't any radio listener. I couldn't concentrate with the radio on. And one evening at 8:00 in the laboratory, I was about to leave and go home, and someone had left a radio on. And I was just about to turn it off when I heard a woman talk about something with personal computers, computer screens, and skin rashes in people that, at that time, didn't have any real name. Later on, I coined the expression screen dermatitis just to tell people that had got these skin irritations, skin rashes, [creaking 00:07:28] pain and so on in front of computer screens. And that later on in the 1990s developed into the functional impairment called electro hypersensitivity.

Professor Olle Johansson:

Had I turned the radio off, we would not talk today. So it's really very odd to talk about this because I was so close to just turn it off, but I started to listen to the woman and her name is [inaudible 00:07:55] and she worked at one of the trade unions in Sweden. And she was asking for expertise in clinical neurology and I'm not a clinical neurologist, but I thought well, I'm in the basic neurosciences, that's close enough. So I called her and that was the start of the very first study where we met together with a physicist and a lot of other people just to interview people with electro hypersensitivity, just to listen to the personal stories.

Professor Olle Johansson:

And that formed the basis of also taking skin biopsies. And it was then that we, and we had 20, 25, maybe even 30 experts in the group that was formed, but we were the only ones that actually found something, namely, what we saw in these skin biopsies completely mimic any form of classical radiation damage, which you would've got from playing around with plutonium, or radium or uranium or exposing yourself to X-rays or strong ultraviolet light, but these women and men had only sat in front of computer screens. They had not been playing with radioactivity or anything like that, but still alterations in the cutaneous biopsies, they were exactly the same as from so called ionizing radiation.

Professor Olle Johansson:

So that became the working model that something in the computer had changed the skin in such a way as if they had irradiation damage. Could it be the so called nonionizing radiation? And among them, for instance, the microwaves that we use 24/7 for all our fun gadgets like cell phones, smart phones, tablets, laptops, etc.


Okay, so let me break in here and talk a little bit about the definitions for wireless energy 'cause that's what Olle's talking about. Now wireless energy comes from all of our wireless devices. It comes from our cell phones, our smart phones, the WiFi, the Bluetooth, the AirPods. It comes from anything that makes a connection wirelessly including your microwave. So all the terms for that energy are interchangeable, but there are quite a few and they are nonionizing radiation. It's also called microwave energy. It's also called microwaves. It's also RF or radiofrequency radiation. It's called EMR for electromagnetic radiation, and a lot of people just call it EMF because it is a type of EMF.


And Olle, I can confirm this because I do a lot of videos to show people the invisible wireless energy. And I use my meters, and I want to demonstrate because you can't see it, smell it, touch it, a lot of people don't even know it's there. And so, the meters help to make it visible. So I was doing the low power WiFi and then a normal WiFi, was doing the comparison. I stood three feet away, held my meter, and was only exposed for maybe three minutes because I could feel it. It was very uncomfortable. Within probably 40 minutes, my producer said, "Oh, my gosh, what happened to your hand?" My hand looked like it had been burned, red, bumpy, painful. It took probably, I don't know, about a week for it to finally subside. So yeah, I completely get it.

Professor Olle Johansson:

Yeah, this is exactly what we saw, too. We exposed people with electro hypersensitivity for as short as one hour or even half an hour, and they got exactly the same. They looked as if they had been out in the sun for a whole day, but they hadn't because this was in December in Stockholm and trust me, December in Stockholm, there's no sun. It's just darkness and they were not exposed to anything. And that led us to more and more realize that the electromagnetic fields could impose on the skin as well as other organs, of course, and produce all the symptoms. So that became, as I said, our basic research model. This was just about the radiation damage. Unfortunately, and you have probably come across the same experience, suddenly, society often represented by medical doctors said, "No, no, there is nothing wrong with the computer. It's in the head of these electro hypersensitive people."



Professor Olle Johansson:

And so we met an enormous opposition during the following years. And around the mid-1990s, all possibilities to get governmental funding for research and so on, they were actively stopped.



Professor Olle Johansson:

And since then, we have had a tremendous hard time to actually survive, if you call it like that, to get the necessary money to do some kind of investigations.


Why? Why did it stop?

Professor Olle Johansson:

I wish I have a simple answer. I have to say I don't know. Having with the history of medical research in the back of my head, it's tempting of course to say well, our research could jeopardize the coming microwave-based wireless society and no one wanted to listen to this, especially not politicians, people from the economy side, the different companies, the operators. They just didn't want to know. But I cannot say that I know it was that cause behind it, but we were actively stopped.


Well, you know what's so great about today? So many people really are becoming aware of the term EMF and they're becoming aware of wireless energy radiation. And they're starting to understand that because there are what, thousands of other research studies showing that there is a biological effect-

Professor Olle Johansson:

Yes, yes, many, many thousands, yeah.


Many thousands, that maybe this could apply to them or their children. And so knowing that now, which I'm so glad, I would love to know from you the most interesting thing that you have found out research-wise in say the last year that we should all know about?

Professor Olle Johansson:

Oh, wow. I would actually go a few years back to 2017 and I am not involved in that research, but that is the kind of results that keep me wake in the night, namely American scientists led by a person called [Taheri 00:14:55] showed in 2017 that ordinary bacteria, bacteria you have on your body as well as inside of your body, if they're exposed to the old type GSM, what we call the second generation mobile telephony as well as to super modern WiFi routers, nothing much happened apart from one thing, and it is that thing that keeps me wake, namely, the bacteria became after exposing themselves to an ordinary WiFi exposure or a 2G cell phone call, they became antibiotic resistant.

Professor Olle Johansson:

The very same year, completely independent of each other, the G20 countries in the world had a separate meeting in Europe only about the fact that more than 25,000 people die prematurely in Europe each year from antibiotic resistance in medical healthcare. And it was said that by the year 2050, this figure worldwide would be more than 10 million people. And last year during the corona crisis, the World Health Organization in Geneva in Switzerland, they were asked what is the most threatening and dramatic future panorama you can see in the field of healthcare and they immediately said "Well, that's antibiotic resistance," and the corona crisis-


Well, yes, and we have heard-

Professor Olle Johansson:

The corona crisis compared to that is just nothing because the 10 million people we are talking about 2050 that would die prematurely, if you combine the G20 meeting with the results of Taheri, 10 million people could become 7.6 billion because with antibiotic resistance, then again as we did in the end of the 1900 century, then again, people would start dying like from a splinter in their thumb.



Professor Olle Johansson:

And I immediately called then a relative I have who is an orthopedic surgeon and I asked her, "Tell me," I said, "is this with antibiotic resistance, we see it on the newspaper flyers and the headlines in television news and so on, but how bad is it? Tell me." And then she laughed and said, "Bad." Well, it's much more than bad. It's a dramatic situation and we are waiting for someone in the world to come up with new types of antibiotics. And if they don't do that, well, then we have a real problem at hand. And as I said a few months later on, then the World Health Organization announced that this is the biggest threat in the human future, antibiotic resistance. So, of course, that kind of studies, and they are not the only one study [inaudible 00:18:13], there are other replications, they keep me awake, yes.


I agree. And, of course, my audience has heard of antibiotic resistance, the dangers of it, and what we mostly understand about the antibiotic resistance is that we are taking too many of them and that they're ending up in our water supplies. And so, that's why we are becoming resistant to antibiotics. So what percentage if you can guess, maybe you won't, but what percentage of the problem do you actually believe is the effect of the wireless energy on bacteria, on our cells that-

Professor Olle Johansson:

On the bacteria, based upon the research I read, I would say that the effect of wireless radiation is far bigger than the effect of a few molecules in the drinking water. And so, I think it's time to reflect, and I hope that the world governments and the parliaments and so on are not only occupied with the COVID-19 question, but also spends time on this because while we talk, you and I, every bacteria in the world is, of course, exposed to wireless energy 24/7 wherever you are, wherever you live, wherever you go to school, wherever you work, and all the bacteria everywhere, they are constantly exposed, and maybe while we talk, they are becoming antibiotic resistant. And with such a biological system on the loose in the world, well, anything could happen.


It's extraordinarily scary. Now tell me-

Professor Olle Johansson:

Yeah, it is, and-


What was the amount? What was the amount of exposure?

Professor Olle Johansson:

Oh, that was just common exposure as you would get from any cell phone or baby alarm or whatever. You can imagine every evening, I go down on my knees and pray to God, "Please, make these scientists wrong," because if they are not wrong, wow, we could have a future that we need to really care about now.


Right, as opposed to make these scientists wrong, wake up the world.

Professor Olle Johansson:

Yeah, exactly, yeah.


Because Olle, and I believe you're the same as me, I'm in a completely wired up environment. I'm very fortunate to be in a home that has solar panels on top so the ambient RF doesn't get in. I'm in a very, very safe zone all the time. However, sometimes, I walk outside and somebody has a booster and somebody else has their smart meter and somebody else has the cell phone tower down the road and then, I'm not protected, but I can come to my home and feel safe and reenergize my body. But what we're doing is we're really spreading this everywhere. And you had this fabulous quote in Generation Zapped where you said, "We've been exposed to one quintillion times more energy than we were 10 years ago." And that was, what, three years ago, four years ago?

Professor Olle Johansson:

Something like that, and that's important to remember that when you look upon public exposure, even if you don't even own a smart phone or a baby alarm or a tablet, you are still exposed wherever you are as you said. And if you compare that to the natural background into which elderly people like myself were born, then the difference to today is a quintillion times higher or for other frequency intervals, actually much higher than that. And finally, since all these exposures from different gadgets are really artificial in its innermost meaning, you can even say that the exposures are infinitely much higher because there has never been such an environmental toxin around before and your body is completely without any protection.

Professor Olle Johansson:

Again, I remember there was a governmental person here in Sweden who said, "No, the radiation can only penetrate from a cell phone a few millimeters into the skin." And since I'm a very sort of simple man, I took two laboratory technicians, two women that were a little bit overweight and I asked them to place a cell phone between themselves and then hug, really pressing all the female flesh together. Then I tried to call the cell phone and, believe it or not, it was immediately ringing as if the women were not even present.


Oh, wow.

Professor Olle Johansson:

So the penetration, of course, it went right through as it is right through walls, ceilings, floors and you name it.


I love this and I 100% understand, and I believe that my audience will, too, and does. And so, my number one recommendation is to wire up whenever possible. You can even ... I can use my cell phone, except to make a call, but I can do everything else on my smart phone while I'm wired to the internet.

Professor Olle Johansson:

Yeah, and actually from a technical point of view, if you use fiber optics for the wiring, here in Sweden, it's becoming more and more common and popular, the technical characters of your system will improve dramatically. It's much better than to have a wireless system. So if you have a wire based on fiber optics, that's really optimal. And as you say, if you have a wired cell phone or computer, I mean you get the same things. It's the same videos, the same pictures, the same text. So there's no difference at all, but you get it in a safe format.


And you get it faster and it's more reliable and more privacy.

Professor Olle Johansson:

Oh, [crosstalk 00:24:08], yeah, and without any disturbances and so on. So it's an ideal system and honestly, I mean in Sweden, for instance, I mean you don't really see people run around that much with a computer in their hand as it was meant to be. People are actually stationary in their work place and in their homes. They're not that mobile. Of course, the cell phone is a different story, but in the long term run, maybe we have a sort of evolution, technical evolution having to take a few steps backwards and in fact-


Yes, with wires all over our homes, remember that? Remember when we first got internet?

Professor Olle Johansson:

We made all our necessary calls and so anyhow, so maybe we need to do that. But I remember I gave a lecture once and there was an elderly man present, and I always ask the audience when I start, "How much more of the third generation mobile telephony exposure do you get today compared to 20 or 30 years ago?" And I ask them, "Is it twice as much or three times as much?" And this old man said, "No, no, no. No, no, no, it's a lot more. I would say it's a hundred times more." The whole audience, they went, "No, no, no, no, that's not even possible." But then I had to deliver the answer as you already have done that the difference is actually a quintillion times more, one with 18 zeroes behind. So the words like it's a colossal increase or astronomical increase or biblical increase, they don't really cover it. It's so big and, as you said before, it's invisible, it doesn't smell so you don't know it's there all the time, 24/7 really and people are exposed, and it goes through anything including their own bodies.


Now to this point, what health effects do you believe that we're seeing now that we might not be relating to our wireless intake?

Professor Olle Johansson:

I would point to effects on fertility. Here in Europe, and I know it's the same in other parts of the world including North America, the quality and the life expectancy of male sperm cells have dramatically gone down. When scientists the last 15 years have done very good experiment exposing sperm cells in test tubes to mobile phone radiation, they [inaudible 00:26:55] and produced the very same effect and-


Yes, there's a great study in China too where they actually put them in front of WiFis and measured-

Professor Olle Johansson:

Yeah, exactly.


Had the same results, yes, there's a great article about it, yes.

Professor Olle Johansson:

Exactly. I mean there is a lot of discussion about, for instance, maybe there are a few extra cancer cases and so on. Society could deal probably with all of that, but if we have an impact on the fertility, that could be so dramatic. So maybe there won't even be a future for mankind. And I don't want to sort of paint too bad a picture, but I heard a few days ago from Japan that the number of adult diapers have now surpassed the number sold for baby diapers, meaning that fewer and fewer people in Japan for different reasons gets babies. And in Europe, it's quite dramatic in many countries and I remember the minister for public health in Italy, he said, and that's about five, 10 years ago, that if nothing changes regarding sperm cell quality, fertility, then, and I quote, "the last Italian will be born in 50 years' time and Italy will only be upheld by immigration thereafter."


Oh, Olle, it is a devastating and heartbreaking fact.

Professor Olle Johansson:

Yeah, and that's the same for most countries in the Western world.


Yeah, we do what's called the Tech Wellness Ways and they're just bite size, easy to comprehend and actually act upon ideas for being well with technology in all different ways, but one of the most popular is thinking about having a baby, tell your man to get his cell phone out of his pocket and his laptop off his lap and so I think that that is resonating. People do understand on a very real level that fertility is an issue. So I thank you for bringing that up. And also, if you could tell everyone just one thing, the most important thing today, what would that be?

Professor Olle Johansson:

Wow. Perhaps again, and maybe I make you disappointed because, again, it's not directly, but more indirectly about humans and that's, of course, the effects on pollinating insects. As you know, the reduction of pollinating insects like honey bees has been dramatic all over the world. You hardly see insects any longer and when, again, controlled experiments have been done, exposing for instance honey beehives to cell phone radiation, the queen, she leaves the beehive with her workers and she don't return. So she just flies away and she doesn't return. And maybe that is going on worldwide. And again, while we talk, this exposure, that could be one of the most important environmental toxins is out there doing its job, not only communicating between gadgets, but also exposing everything else in biology as well as human medicine. And so, I would probably point to that kind of effects that again are quite scary and again, I often go down on my knees and ask God again to make those scientists wrong.


Well, and my hope is that people will hear you and their reaction will be to turn off their phone, to get a wire up kit and get their homes wired, to most definitely ask their schools, ask the schools to-

Professor Olle Johansson:

Yeah, [crosstalk 00:30:50] I mean if you really should make a difference, then I would say the following, then you cannot have any of these wireless gadgets and you should, as you said before, go back to wired concepts. And back is not the word because back is in this case the future with fiber optics and so on.


All right.

Professor Olle Johansson:

And in the meantime, you should not allow yourself or your family to ever call a cell phone number because if you do, then the entire infrastructure must be up and working-


That's a very good point. That's a very good point.

Professor Olle Johansson:

[Crosstalk 00:31:30] situation and it's a little bit like, what should I say, I mean people they look in the computer, you know that more than half of the connected computer time worldwide is about pornography and, of course-


I didn't know that.

Professor Olle Johansson:

... if you sit there in your home watching pornography, then you support the entire worldwide infrastructure. You don't know where this film was made and under which circumstances and so on.


Right, it's horrible.

Professor Olle Johansson:

So the only way to be ethically correct is to never, ever allow yourself to watch it and download it.


That's a great recommendation. I'm all for that.

Professor Olle Johansson:

Yeah, but I mean-


For many, many reasons.

Professor Olle Johansson:

I hear now that a lot of maybe mostly men say, "No, bollocks, I want to have my porn," but do you really want that? And going back then to the exposures from microwaves, if you are concerned about yourself and your family regarding your health, shouldn't you also be concerned about all families in the world? And someone said recently I cannot be free if you are not.



Professor Olle Johansson:

And that's the same. I cannot be healthy if I not allow you to be it as well.


Absolutely. And I think that the more people become aware, the more they will make those good and healthy choices for all of us.

Professor Olle Johansson:

Yeah. And the interesting part here is that now people may sort of be very frustrated and think, "No, no, no, I don't want to get rid of my cell phone and computer," and so on, but by acting the way we said, they will send a very strong signal to the manufacturers to come up with new inventions. And the last five, six years, the most common question I've got in public lectures is, "Okay, I hear you, but what can we do? What is the solution?" And I don't want to take too much time, but I could just mention quickly, for instance in Japan, you can buy Japanese cars which have a simple switch inside the car turning off the WiFi inside the car because the-


I can't wait 'til that's in America. That's brilliant, I just have to get an old car.

Professor Olle Johansson:

Yeah, yeah, and [crosstalk 00:34:01] many parents and adults in Japan, they are very health conscious and they say, "I don't want to expose my family to this, okay. We put this simple switch in, there you go." In Poland, in Europe, soon they will launch a low radiation cell phone. It's a step. It's maybe not the final solution, but it's least a step and I see more and more and more of this kind of thinking. And as you say, maybe while we talk, some young men and women sitting at their [inaudible 00:34:33] somewhere in California inventing tomorrow's low, low, low radiation gadgets. We don't know that, but maybe.


So Olle, thank you so much. This knowledge is incredible and I'm so, so thrilled that you've been with me today. Where can people find you?

Professor Olle Johansson:

They could go through you and you have my email address, and I will ask people to make short questions because I get very many-


Oh, no. Yes, and I'm not hoping that they will ask you questions. I want to know how they can move forward to your research and-

Professor Olle Johansson:

Oh, that's very kind of you to bring that up and again, I know you have the link and if anyone is interested, they could support us with research money and trust me, we need every single dollar, pound or yen because it is difficult to get the attention of the public organizations and the governmental organizations. So we really need the support.


Well, Tech Wellness will support you and, hopefully, our listeners will as well. Thank you so much.

Professor Olle Johansson:

Thank you.


And we'll have you back very, very soon.

Professor Olle Johansson:

Oh, I hope so. Thank you very much and have a lovely day.


You be well, Olle.


Now wasn't that a great interview? Isn't he so interesting? Do you love the word pictures, the way he describes things? I'll never forget the first time that I met him and we were talking about wireless in schools and the proliferation of just WiFi everywhere. And he said, "Imagine if you told parents that you were going to back up the bus to the cafeteria with all of its diesel fumes and open the doors of the cafeteria, just let it flow in there, just turn on the bus and let those exhaust fumes go into the cafeteria." And the parents would say, "What? No, we're not going to do it. Stop that. That's crazy. We don't want all those diesel fumes in the cafeteria where the kids are eating." But at the very same time, parents don't understand that diesel fumes are a class 2B carcinogen as designated by the World Health Organization and so is wireless EMF. So we're allowing that wireless EMF to flow throughout the schools, yet we're not doing anything about it. So I thought that was an amazing word picture from him.


Now the five top takeaways, Olle shared the recent disturbing research discovering how EMF exposure from just wireless phones and WiFi caused antibiotic resistance. I will link to that research in the notes. And you can also find it in our research section at, but Olle emphasized that this is the one thing that keeps him up at night. We've all heard about antibiotic resistance in the media. Scientists are seeing that germs are becoming resistant to the antibiotics we have. So Olle is worried that if in the future bacteria become even more resistant to antibiotics because of EMF radiation, the devastation that we're seeing in this current pandemic will look like nothing. Those are Olle's words.


Now second, I'm sure you remember Olle talking about those two women hugging with the phone in between them and the phone clearly had signal because it rang. So yes, that was a great word picture, a reminder that even though you can't see it or smell it or touch it, wireless EMF radiation can and does penetrate your body. So stay away from it when you can. Number three, it was so interesting to hear about Olle's latest research on honey bees. I've put a link to that research in the notes. But it actually measured the effects of EMF inside the hive. They say the honeybees did not like it.


Number four, looking forward to that new low EMF phone, right? We'll let you know when that comes out and I for one am so interested in the car that allows you to turn off WiFi and hopefully Bluetooth. And that reminds me to encourage you to not keep your phones on even if you're just sitting in the car because the radiation is actually amplified when you move as the phone continually looks for new signal from tower to tower. And also, just do as many simple things as you can to limit yours and your family's exposure to radiation. Scientists are confirming more and more that it's indeed a health issue.


So not only are we happy to share the latest scientific research on, we also have 10 easy and great tips to limit your radiation around your home and great solutions that you can look for in our shop. So until next time, I'm August Brice. Be well.

]]> 2021-03-12T14:57:50-08:00 2022-04-29T13:40:59-07:00 Thriving with Technology Podcast: Myths & Truths About EMFs with The Man Who Detects Them, Rob Metzinger Jadian Brice


On this episode of Thriving With Technology, I talk with Rob Metzinger, engineer and building biologist, about EMF’s or Electro Magnetic Fields.  EMF’s carry the information that we send and receive on all our digital devices.  Multiple studies over three decades point to biological damage from EMF’s, so we should all do what we can to reduce our exposure to them.  Rob’s company designs and builds a great line of EMF meters that I love and they're one of the companies I feature on Tech Wellness. 

Rob also consults with people and helps them reduce their exposure in their homes.  He also teaches classes at the Building Biology Institute. Over the years, I've talked to researchers, scientists, to public policy people, to people who suffer from EHS. But it’s great to talk to someone who truly understands the properties of the waves and can help us shield and stop them effectively.  

I also love the fact that Rob helps us separate what’s true from so much of the other stuff on the internet, that may not be completely true.  People have really latched on to things like Shungite, a black mineral that is 98% carbon that somehow has been turned into the miracle cure for radiation (spoiler alert—It’s not), EMF protective clothing, EMF blocking device cases—you can even find videos online with tens of thousands of views that say all you need to do is put a house plant in the room and it will suck out the EMF (again—not).

You’ll learn what works and what doesn’t work and how to best protect you and your family. A lot of this I’ve known intuitively for years, but it’s so nice to talk

the about why there's issues with EMF protective clothing, talks about plants.  these are things I've known intuitively for a long time, but it's so nice to hear an engineer’s perspective. 

Hope you enjoy the episode.  If you aren’t sensitive to EMF’s and have no idea what the fuss is all about, I’m including a link to an earlier episode where we journeyed to England and talked to people who suffer from Electromagnetic Hyper-Sensitivity or EHS and you’ll understand the profound impact that EMF can have.

No matter if you're sensitive to EMF's or not, I urge people who are worried about the proven health effects of these information carrying radio ways to get their own meter.  It really makes those invisible waves visible, so you and your family can maintain a safe distance from the source of the radiation.

Here's a special incentive for listeners of Thriving With Technology to "meter up" through February, 2021:

Save $11 off the Super Power Classic EMF Meter and $23 off the Pro 2 EMF Meter!  That's our biggest meter discount to date.

At checkout, enter code:  METER1

Finally, if you like the program, please subscribe and tell your friends—and we really appreciate those reviews on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get yours.  Be Well!




Read the full transcription here: 


August Brice: Hello, welcome back to thriving with technology. I'm August Brice. This is our first podcast of 2021. Our first in a while actually. Today is a good one. We're speaking with Rob Metzinger, president of Safe Living Technologies. He's one of the top experts I've ever talked to on wireless EMF or what's called radio frequency radiation. He teaches classes on EMF radiation at the Institute of building biology. In this episode, he talks about the importance of detecting and protecting, he shares tips on using shielding and other EMF protection and the importance of a certified EMF meter. Rob is one of the world's leading authorities on detecting EMF in your environment, his team at safe living technologies, even designs and makes meters which I love. I've got one in my hand right now. I keep one in the car, I have one at the office. And the reason I do is it helps to make or does, it doesn't just help it makes the invisible wireless energy visible and Rob even put sound signatures on his meter. 

So right now what you're hearing from this meter is nothing, but I'm going to turn Bluetooth on my computer. I'm sitting in front of my computer now, hear that? That's the sound of Bluetooth, wireless energy. Now we're going to add WiFi. Okay, Hear that? That's WiFi energy. Oh, listen to that. Okay, those are two different sounds of EMF radiation. And it's so important to know about EMF in your environment. And you might even be thinking, why should I care about EMF? Well, it's because it's everywhere in our digital age, we just couldn't do wireless without it. It comes from the invisible waves of energy that are present when wireless devices are turned on. So you've got a smartphone or any device, your laptop, a tablet, your Alexa, even those virtual reality headsets that I think are so crazy. Or a [inaudible 00:02:06], any device that's using cell signal, or WiFi or Bluetooth is emitting EMF radiation. 

And now we've got over 30 years of peer reviewed scientific research. And there's no doubt that this type of EMF has a biological effect on our bodies. But we all react differently, which is good and most of us don't notice them at all. But it doesn't mean that they're not impacting us because they are. It's like other toxins. EMFs are the reason I started Tech Wellness. I figured out years ago that I was sensitive to it. And it's probably going to seem strange to some of you, but I can literally feel the tingling energy from a smartphone when it's in my hand, it does not feel good. I know the WiFi is on in my house, In fact, it wakes me up. And that's why the WiFi in this house is unplugged to put away and used only in emergency situations. People refer to people like me as a canary in the coal mine for EMF radiation. 

I've got this video of the first time, I actually held a cell phone in my hands. It was Christmas 30 years ago. And you can see that I actually cringe and my body jolts when the phone turns on. And you know, for many years, I thought that everybody could feel the same thing I was feeling. So actually, it was really a gift for me to start connecting the dots early back when I did because back then I was like a total outlier, you had to search hard to understand the mechanics behind how these wireless devices were communicating and the physics behind what was happening. And as I did, I started to find out more and more scientific studies were showing that there indeed was a biological reaction to this radiation. And I discovered the book Cellphones Invisible Hazards Of The Wireless Age by George Carlo. And that really got me going on my way.

As I learned more, I started looking for ways to turn down those physical reactions that I was having. And I wanted to address the other issues that the digital age was bringing with it like privacy concerns and the fact that I could see how so many of the people I loved and knew were becoming enthralled with their phones. Because you know, I couldn't use mine, I could observe what was going on. And I saw that it was almost to the point of obsession. I started blogging and sharing what I learned. And today Tech Wellness is a platform with information, experts and solutions that empower people to live balanced with technology. Check it out for science back solutions. We're not about fear, we're about mindful living. We believe you can thrive in the digital age. We focus on mind, body, spirit and safety. And your mind, to be focused your spirit to be more connected and present and your safety so that you can guard your privacy and your body to be healthier. 

And that's why today in this podcast, we're focusing on how to find and protect yourself from the invisible EMF in your environment. So right now, here's my chat with Rob Metzinger. I'll be back at the end with my five top takeaways and a special offer. Hi, Rob. 

Rob Metzinger: Hi, August. 

August Brice: So great to talk to you. I am really thrilled to be able to talk to you today because I'm just fascinated by your company. I'm fascinated that you build and create meters and that your business has probably just exploded, right? 

Rob Metzinger: Yeah, it's definitely increased, correct. Awareness is growing daily on this topic.

August Brice: You can say that again, we're in the middle of it. This topic is definitely trending. So I'm really happy to talk to someone who knows inside and out what's going on. And I first want to start with you really are off the grid, aren't you? 

Rob Metzinger: I'm in the country, I'm half an hour away from the nearest town and RFY is it's pretty quiet over [inaudible 00:05:58]. 

August Brice: So places like that RFY's off the grid still exist?

Rob Metzinger: There are sheltered spots, sheltered areas where RF is not as strong as other areas. In these days, they're difficult to find. And you definitely have to go out into the country and perhaps in a forested environment as well, or out in the mountains and foothills in some areas. They are out there, they are difficult to find. 

August Brice: And so for people who might be listening who don't know what RF is, that's radio frequencies. That's the field that comes from all wireless energy, right? 

Rob Metzinger: That's correct. Yes. Anything that has a wireless transmitter units, radio frequency radiation.

August Brice: And so when you go outside, outside in your backyard, do you pick up any of this RF EMF? 

Rob Metzinger: Yes, we do. It's impossible to avoid everything. So when I go into my yard, in the summertime, it's really good on the safe and sound pro two meter, I'm getting readings of under five microwatts per square meter in the outside area. We're surrounded by a lot of deciduous trees. And when those leaves fall on fall time and into winter, my readings go up, they go up to 20, 30, 40 microwatts per square meter. Because the leaves on the trees aren't shielding me as good as they are in the summertime. 

August Brice: So it's not a myth. Trees, actually and maybe this is because these trees are very dense. But trees can shield EMF?

Rob Metzinger: Absolutely any obstruction can block radiofrequency radiation, yes.

August Brice: Super. I didn't think that we would be talking about this particular topic. But I do want to know, because people ask me all the time, if they fill up their office with plants, will they be protected from the wireless energy? I mean from their desktop or their laptop? 

Rob Metzinger: I don't believe so. I think you will need to like in my case, it's cell phone tower radiation. So the cell phone towers are maybe about half a mile away from me. And the trees are between me and the source which are the towers. And when they're in blossom, or when the leaves are out, they're made of water and other components. And they physically block the radio wave signals from passing through as a radio wave signals travel primarily in a straight line. And you know there's a direct shield between me and the source with these leaves. Now, just having plants scattered randomly in an office is probably not going to do it, you would have to stack metal pretty densely between you and the source, which is a wireless router.

August Brice: You would have to know exactly [inaudible 00:09:01] the source was. If you were just in an office building, and you weren't sure exactly where the router was, even if it was a densely packed area trees or house plants, you'd have to know exactly where the direction was coming from?

Rob Metzinger: That's correct. And It's challenging in an office environ because you're getting reflections off wall surfaces. On my case, it's a direct line of sight to these towers, and there's no reflections coming in from other directions. So whereas in the inside in an office, radio waves reflect off all surfaces, so you can have some plants between you and the router, but I'm not sure how effective that's even going to be to block them. But there's other pathways that these signals will take they'll bounce off ceilings, floors and walls and reflects all over the place then eventually make it to you. So that's a challenge about shielding an indoor environment with all these reflections off of other surfaces.

August Brice: Okay so everybody, listen, bottom line, plants are beautiful, they can definitely enhance your environment, but please do not depend on them to block the EMF radiation coming from your wireless devices. It's just, it's not a thing. It can't possibly be. So thank you Rob. Thanks for clearing that up. I've talked to people about that, but they're, we have a lot of myths going around. Because the topic is so interesting to people. And so one of the myths is, fill your, not do they only say fill, they say, get a house plant and that way, you don't have to worry about the EMF radiation. And there are very popular articles and even EMF "Specialists" that are recommending this as a type of shielding. And my concern is that people might feel that they're protected and then end up having the consequences of not being protected. So that's why.

Rob Metzinger: Yeah, August, there's some points here to make as well. And any of these theories should be measured before they can verify the effectiveness. There're all sorts of things that could be happening that we just don't see. And unless you're there and do an investigation on exactly what's happening, measurements before and after are critical. And that's to prove anything for sure. And that's what you need to do, you need to do measurements before and measurements after and analyze the data that you gather. And if there is some type of shielding going on by chance, an investigation and trying to understand what's going on is always required.

August Brice: So that's so[inaudible 00:11:44]. That's so correct. And that is why I love your company, Safe Living Technologies. Because not only do you design, build and selling meters, but you also do the consulting, and the teaching, which is so important right now. But what I really wanted to talk to you about today were these amazing tools that you create. That Rob makes meters that can make the invisible EMF energy visible. And when he talks about assessing the situation, like an EMF shielding situation before and then after, you're talking about using those meters, right? 

Rob Metzinger: That's correct. Yes, meters are great, but also having some certified data behind them to verify what they do is really important as well. And we're all for that also. 

August Brice: Oh absolutely. Yes. And actually you do all that. But how does one begin to go into the business of making a meter? I'm just really curious. How did that begin for you? Making EMF meters particularly?

Rob Metzinger: Right. Well, yeah, it was a long process for me, because we've been in this business for close to 20 years now. And it's recognizing all the meters I've seen along the way and what they're capable of doing, and what I wish they did. And some performed really well, some performed poorly. It's analyzing all of the meters that I've seen and trying to take the best qualities from each one and pack it into one and make it reasonably priced. So yeah, it was a chore of analyzing many different types of meters over the years and trying to make one that was certified, that was affordable, and performed well.

And also we're concerned with measuring really low levels, because of the people we deal with are electrically sensitive. And they require meters to measure very small levels of radiofrequency radiation. So there's a specialty, it takes a special type of engineering to make a meter that's sensitive enough to do that. And a lot of the meters out there are geared for industry guidelines and industry guidelines are interested in measuring really high levels of radiation as opposed to low levels. So now there was a lot of testing we had to do in order to make it that sensitive for electrically sensitive people. So it was a long journey in order to create these meters and to get them to the specifications that we wanted them to be at. 

August Brice: Well, you have two really beautiful meters that I love using. So how long did it take to create those or even the first one that you came out with which was the classic, the smaller one? Is that the right one?

Rob Metzinger: Yeah, the classic took us about a year of development and learning and understanding what we're developing. And yeah we started with that and then built off the pro from the basics, we learned from the classic. Now approximately a year of development, and then the pro took us about another year to develop as well. So it's quite a process of going into these testing labs and testing chambers, running some experiments to test how your meters perform. And then going back to the engineering and design phase to try and perfect what you're measuring.

August Brice: Okay. Is it a group of people that does this together? Or do you just do this yourself?

Rob Metzinger: No, we have an engineering team we work with as well. And it's a whole team effort coming at it from all different directions.

August Brice: And you talked about how you measure for sensitive people. Tell us a little bit about that? About the background of how you determine what a sensitive person can be exposed to? 

Rob Metzinger: All right, well, it comes down to building biology guidelines. And these guidelines are designed for measuring the biological effects that can affect a human being. These building biology guidelines are set at very low levels, compared to industry guidelines. And what we're finding is that we can create an environment that has less than 10 microwatts per square meter, and many of these electrically sensitive people are able to exist something free. And that's the goal, to try and make an electrically sensitive person comfortable in an environment. And that's basically what we have to do. And we have to make sure the meter is able to measure accurately at those low levels. At 0.1 microwatts per square meter, all the way to 10 microwatts per square meter. 

August Brice: Right. And so, what we're talking about if you have a safe and sound classic, and if you want to go on our website, or Rob's website and see one, we're talking about being in that green area, or can we hop over to that yellow area, when you're talking about the EMF sensitivity? Are we talking slight or moderate?

Rob Metzinger: Yeah, when we design the meters, we want to be simple so you're in a safe and sound classic, basically green is good, right? Go flashing green light is ideal. It's below one microwatts per square meter. And if you're selling the green, you're below 10 microwatts per square meter.

August Brice: And so I actually am fortunate enough to live in a home as well, that keeps me in a flashing green. But I've come to my office, I can't... Well, once we went through the office and we took the meter everywhere and we were able to just by eliminating sources that were coming out of our office, like people's phones and people's computers and people's wireless speakers, we were able to get into a solid moderate [inaudible 00:18:19]. And we're surrounded by other people's WiFi's. We're on a busy street. And so that did give me hope. What do you think about a situation that's just straight moderate?

Rob Metzinger: Right. Well, these building biology guidelines are designed for sleeping environments. So it's really critical to get your sleeping environment as low as possible. So your body can do its repairing from its daytime exposure. And when you're working during the daytime, in an office environment, it's really tough to control sometimes. And you do the best you can, like you did and getting it to a moderate level which is between 10 and 100 microwatts per square meter might be the best you can do. And that's what you got to adapt to and live with. Obviously, green if you can, but not always possible in a work environment, It's challenging. 

August Brice: I think so. I think and I love the standards and I love how you've listed all the standards from different organizations on your website. I list standards as well, but my standards for personally are much more generous because I could find really very few people that could get into that low environment and I didn't want to discourage them. I wanted to help them at the very least put their phone three feet away. Just hope that they would, at the very least take some of the awareness of it, but not be completely afraid unless of course they do have EHS and I do want to talk about that in a second. Just how the levels have increased dramatically. But first I want to ask you do you have EHS? 

Rob Metzinger: I don't. I believe I'm a little bit aware of my environment. If I concentrate enough, when I'm in a high exposure area, I can feel things change a little bit. First thing that happens to me is I see the back of my neck starts tensing up and getting a little stiff, and a headache will start developing. You know, I only know that because I've done this so many times and In a clean environment, when we go out and do our testing, and I have high exposure for long periods of time, you notice these little things. And that's kind of what I've noticed. And then when I get back to my home or my office, where it's a quiet environment, again, those symptoms will go away after a day or so. 

August Brice: So, the symptoms are what? You feel a bit of a tension?

Rob Metzinger: Yeah, exactly. For me, it tenses up the back of my neck, and then it'll develop into a headache hours or into the evening. And it usually takes a day or so to go away. But yeah, if you can monitor your environment and know you're in a clean environment and know how you feel, once you go into a polluted RF environment, you may notice different symptoms coming along, make note of them. And see if it happens, again, and again, when you go from a quiet to a noisy RF environment. These electrically sensitive people that come to us, they're very sharp, because they self diagnose this on their own. They've proved this to themselves over and over again, confirming that they are electrically sensitive by going into quiet environments and noisy environments and noting the differences that happened to them when they go into these environments. 

August Brice: I love hearing from someone who doesn't have EHS like you, because we know or we know there's a biological effect on everyone. However, we're more sensitive, we can get away from it, because it's so profound. The feelings are for me, also are just so profound. But I do believe that people who aren't sensitive, may be feeling those things like you said, the tension, maybe anxiety and maybe a headache. And it's so nice to quantify your situation like you're recommending people do, so that they can maybe even see how much better they feel without it and then benefit from not being around EMF, If they don't have to be.

Rob Metzinger: Exactly, yeah, just do... This is all about doing experiments to see what makes you feel better. And a lot of the business is part of that, giving people options in order to get symptom relief or feeling better. 

August Brice: Have you been able to help people with what you do? Not just detecting, but also the mitigation efforts that you make in the shielding efforts that you make? Have you been able to help people? And have you seen changes? 

Rob Metzinger: Well, I definitely with shielding, there's changes or even as simple as turning off your WiFi router, getting rid of the[inaudible 00:23:14] in your home. And all of a sudden, people are starting to sleep at night. We also noticed this when we shut off power in the sleeping area. You know, it's not just radio frequency waves that are affecting electrically sensitive people, it's exposure to power as well. So dealing with both of these factors, yeah can make a huge difference. You know, some people it affects immediately and they see results immediately. Some it can take a while it can take weeks, it can take months, everybody their own biological, same damage or tech center hurt in their body and the healing process and results are different in each person. So it's hard to really to know what to expect from each person because everybody's different.

August Brice: And that's true. We're all different. And I've always compared it to just other toxins. We might find people who are sensitive to chlorine bleach, and maybe immediately they're symptom free, and maybe others it takes a while to heal. And so to me, I compare it to just other toxins in the environment, if people want to try to understand what we're talking about. Does that resonate with you as well? 

Rob Metzinger: Well, absolutely. It's a perfect way of looking at it. Yes. 

August Brice: And so, you talked for a second about shielding. And you mentioned it just now and I know that you have also developed shielding products, what type of shielding have you developed? I'm curious about that? 

Rob Metzinger: Well, we're trying to keep it economical as well. So basic, we don't carry a lot of shielding materials, we carry some basic materials and one of them is aluminum foil, aluminum foil believe it or not, straight out of your kitchen cupboard is an excellent shield. It's a solid piece of metal that blocks radio waves very effectively. So we have a material that's like a builder's grade aluminum foil material, that-

August Brice: Okay. Where would we put that? So Rob, so just so that everyone listening understands what to do with that aluminum foil, do we wrap it on the back of our phones?

Rob Metzinger: The product that we were using, It's designed to be placed between you and the source. So this builder's grade material is basically designed to be used as a vapor barrier. So we go underneath drywall, if you're building a new home, and you know form a barrier between you and the source, which should be a cell phone tower, that was designed for and of course, if you put a shield up in a house, or a room and don't want to have wireless devices inside that area, just because of the reflections that can be caused because of it. And that's basically how these signals are blocked, they're reflected back in the other direction. The aluminum foil was one item. There's an aluminum mesh as well, that can walk radio waves, believe it or not, the aluminum screen on your windows kind of works the same way. 

And basically metal that has threads in a certain grid pattern and blocks radio waves fairly effectively as well. Once we get into the very high gigahertz waves though, the wavelength is very small. So it can pass through these openings and mesh. But where we have that foil, that solid material, the radio waves, even the smaller wavelengths, it's solid piece of metal so they can't get through. Those are the two kind of building materials that we have. And we also carry different kinds of shielding fabrics. And these fabrics basically have this metal grid of wires woven into them as well and block RF. And we use it for curtains, and bed canopies. So those are two very popular items as well. And one of the main entry points for our [inaudible 00:27:03], can be through the windows. If they're older windows, especially in all the sleeping environments, we need to try and get down a little 10 microwatts per square meter. So [inaudible 00:27:12] canopies, RF shielding canopies are a really good solution for them. 

August Brice: And I love this, Rob, because I have tried shielding and you're making it sound very easy, and very practical and very protective. But I really think you should let people know about the situations that can occur If someone ends up installing it themselves. What do they look out for? 

Rob Metzinger: Right. Yeah, every type of mitigation has secondary effects in shielding RF definitely has that as well. And I look at shielding as kind of a last resort, we always like to try and eliminate all sources If at all possible and keep the environment as natural as possible. By installing shielding, you're creating an unnatural environment, and you got to look at it as a trade off, because you're going to create a secondary issue, but you're going to be blocking a primary main issue. Like if you're half a mile from a cell phone tower, and you're getting hit with high levels of microwave radiation, falling a shield could be very beneficial for you, if you install a shield, you don't have to worry about reflections on the inside, you need to make sure eliminate all your inside sources.

August Brice: Completely. So folks do not go and put a bunch of foil on your windows, and then turn on your cell phone inside or put your WiFi on inside. Correct? You've just defeated the purpose? 

Rob Metzinger: That's correct as well. Yes, and definitely you have to understanding what the force is, implementing, detect by measuring, understand what the source is, protect, so install shielding and then verify afterwards with a measurement. Because [crosstalk 00:29:00] yeah, you always want to make sure that you measure after you shield because many strange things can happen with our shielding and for peace of mind and to be sure you always want to measure before and after to make sure that that result at the end is positive. 

August Brice: Exactly and I want to go back to something you said when you were talking about the screens, the metal screens and the wave that can actually get through the screen. Are you talking about a 5G wave?

Rob Metzinger: Yes millimeter waves are very high frequency waves have a very small wavelength. They can get through a lot of openings and these small openings in meshes. They can definitely get through those. And other property of these 5G waves is they have problems penetrating buildings in glass areas. So they often have difficulty getting into buildings, their cell phone companies have technology that helps them do that these beam forming transmitters that help them pass through buildings better, but they're still difficulty passing through buildings at the current power levels, that they're allowed to transmit at these days.

August Brice: Do you have a meter yet that can pick up that wave? 

Rob Metzinger: No, unfortunately, we don't. And unfortunately meters that are out there are kind of geared for industry as well. They are very expensive. And there's really nothing affordable out there right now that can measure those millimeter waves, you know, 2.4 gigahertz up to 90 gigahertz. So yeah, it's on our wish list for meters to design. We're working on it, but it's going to take some time for something to develop in that field. 

August Brice: And so you know, you hear it like we all have, we're hearing so much about 5G, and there's a lot of people have a lot of fear about it. What do you recommend in terms of detection and shielding as far as 5G goes? The actual millimeter wave that may or may not be out there right now? 

Rob Metzinger: Well, yeah, exactly. That's the thing. So we at this point in time, I think 99.99% of the waves out there from the cellular system is under six gigahertz. So almost all the standard methods for blocking 99.9 [inaudible 00:31:20]can be used. And for the 5G signals, you just have to make sure that the material you're using would work at 24 to 40, or 60 gigahertz. And a lot of materials have difficulty at those frequencies. So you're almost looking at all in metal to block the signals, because any little gap will let these little millimeter waves through. And yeah, solid metal. We know that shielding paint will do it as well as carbon based shielding paint. The window film that we have does very good at high frequencies as well. And it challenges with these frequencies actually penetrating buildings too. So there's very much still to learn about this. It's not, these signals aren't out there as much as we think they are at this point in time. Things may change and things always change in this business. So we'll just have to monitor and see how this true 5G development goes over time.

August Brice: So right now we can rest a little bit knowing that you said about 1% of the wireless energy out there may be this millimeter wave?

Rob Metzinger: Right. There're installations is out there. And it's primarily in highly densely populated areas, like some downtown streets in some major cities have this at this point in time, but for this technology to get out into the suburbs, I just don't see it happening very quickly, if at all.

August Brice: Right. That's good news. Very good news. And you know, Robin, you were talking about the shielding, and the detection before and after. So just want to get this straight. Before you use shielding, detect, after you use shielding, detect. And the shielding that you're talking about is home shielding. You're not talking about wearing a cap or covering yourself with a blanket. Correct? 

Rob Metzinger: Correct. 

August Brice: Okay. And when I read an EMF conference last year that we both sponsored and that was great, great to meet you in person. But there were a couple of people there that wore EMF jumpsuits, full protection. Do you remember?

Rob Metzinger: I do.

August Brice: Okay. And when I spoke to them, about it, they said that, in addition to the jumpsuits which also covered their feet, they had little booties that covered their feet, they also wore visors that would reflect the EMF away from their face. And they said that they were so sensitive, that normally they also had their face covered. But for the conference, because there were so many steps that they took to eliminate EMF in the conference area, that they were able to wear just a visor. And so knowing that and knowing that these people really, really were incredibly sensitive, and were taking great care and came to a conference just to learn all about EMF and what they could do about it, what do you say to people who think they should just put a hat on and be protected from EMF?

Rob Metzinger: Right. We've like over the years, we've seen various reactions to wearing shielded clothing or metallic clothing. It's kind of a love hate relationship. I mean, some people do really well and they love it and other people, they react really poorly to it. So I myself, I'm still trying to understand the effects of [inaudible 00:34:39] coating on the body. And it's just something we have to learn about as we go on here. And I would say if you're going to try it, do it as an experiment and listen to what your body says. And if it reacts negatively, then that's probably not true. Or you want to try a different approach to it.

August Brice: Yeah, I've tried them all. And way back, as soon as everything came out, I started trying everything. And I realized that the heat that I felt, and it's not a heat that anyone else can feel. It's just a heat that I feel in my body, like a tingling, it always increased it. It just made that bizarre heat that I feel worse. And then I started to understand that it's reflecting. So maybe it's reflecting to the areas that aren't covered. And that's why I'm feeling that sensation. 

Rob Metzinger: Yeah. And then there's conductive fabric and non conductive fabric. And is there an insulating layer between you and these fabrics, you know that may help. When radio waves hit a metal, you they cause internal current flow inside the material similar to the frequencies that are hitting it. So because that then transferred onto your body, if you're in direct contact with it. There's so much we need to learn and understand about this, first of all, so yeah, I just use a little bit of caution if you're going to experiment with shielded clothing.

August Brice: And okay, and then the last thing about shielding [inaudible 00:36:07]. But what about the shielding that goes on the phone? I mean, you probably know how I feel about it. I'm not a fan of putting my phone in a pouch that's partially shielding. Have you tried the phone cases that are shielded on the top? Or have you tried a pouch? 

Rob Metzinger: Back when they first came out many years ago, we did some experimenting with them, but it's kind of like when you go in into an elevator, and you start losing the service of your phone and what happens is the phone will actually increase its transmission in order to try and get a signal. So that's kind of the same thing that's happening with your phone when it's in a pouch. It's probably going to increase its signal, it's going to probably wear out the battery or drain down the battery quicker. 

I'm not sure how effective it will really be for you, especially if you're still in direct contact with it, and it's on your hip in a pouch and all that RF is hitting that shield, and it's still kind of in contact with your body near demonstrations, I think you demonstrated it's not completely sealed either. So it's leaking out in certain areas, which can cause hotspot, I think the only true way of achieving protection is to eliminate the source and the source is the phone, so I would really say you have to try and get it off your body for sure and ultimately put it in airplane mode. And check messages when you need to or, use the phone when you need to as opposed to having it on all the time. 

August Brice: And the peace that comes with that is so awesome. One last question back to meters. Have you noticed since you've been working with meters and creating meters for what 15 years? You've been using a meter or 20?

Rob Metzinger: I've been using meters for about 20 years. Yes.

August Brice: Have you noticed just an increase in the ambient readings?

Rob Metzinger: Well, back in the days, if you're close to a tower, the ambient readings were pretty high still. But back then, you'd find a lot more sheltered spots. Now, the coverage, there's so many towers out there, that it's really tough to find these sheltered areas. So we're still getting significant readings, they definitely have went up too, but I find it's more of the sheltered sponsors, not that any of the software companies are doing a great job and getting coverage in many places, and the cell phone they're not dropping signals as we did in the old days either. And I used to drive down the road, and it'd be normal to drop a signal, but that just doesn't happen anymore. Now the coverage area is definitely more densely radiated with this RF radiation from [inaudible 00:38:50] towers. 

August Brice: And do you think it's all cell phone radiation an or WiFi? Or do you think it's the combination?

Rob Metzinger: I think it's mostly cellphone outside. WiFi doesn't tend to transmit far out of people's homes. You know, in fact, if you have your WiFi on, it may affect two or three homes down the street, and then that pretty well ends.

August Brice: Unless Rob, you're in a city like we are and there's mesh networks, and they serve to form sort of an umbrella and this 12 block area that I'm in. Have you seen stuff like that?

Rob Metzinger: Okay, no, not in my area. But it can exist out there for sure.

August Brice: And you know what I love? Okay, I have to tell everybody, your sound signatures are the coolest, because I can tell that it's WiFi versus cell phone, and how did you come to create these? So Rob's meters when you're measuring RF energy and that can be from any wireless device, he's put this sound on to that particular wave. How did you do that? How did you think of doing it?

Rob Metzinger: I can't take credit for that. That was developed before my time. And I just thought it was a great feature to have. And it has to do with the modulation or the data that basically being sent by these phones and it's the frequency of the data pattern that's coming off the phones and it's not the carrier wave. The carrier wave for a deck 6.0 telephone would be 1.8, 1.9 gigahertz. It's the modulation on that, it's the actual data that's coming through. And that's what we're just basically sending through our speaker and because it's low frequency, it's high gigahertz range and we can play it on a speaker and you can hear it because it's low frequency and that's the biological part for our body's as well, because our body is operate in that little frequencies, starting below one hertz and going up to a few 100 hertz so I'm told. 

And a lot of that, this modulated signals coming from post digital devices can be in that range. That's one of the reasons we suspect the biological effects occurring, but each device has its own modulation or data transmission pattern and that's what these sounds you're hearing. That's what these sounds that you're hearing. And it can help you easily identify the source, because just looking at a screen and a number really doesn't tell you much about what's causing it, but these audio patterns can really help you identify sources and just by using the meters for a short period of time you'll quickly be able to identify what a wireless router sounds like, what a cordless phone sounds like, what a cell phone tower sounds like. Those are the three main offenders that we see over and over again.

August Brice: Right. It's awesome and I love what you do with that description just now, when you talked about modulation and biological effect. Another myth, or not a myth, argument that I hear is well, they're everywhere, the same energy is occurring naturally in the environment, so tell me just a little bit from an engineer's perspective, the difference between that wave that might be occurring naturally versus the one that's happened because it's unnatural man made?

Rob Metzinger: All right. These are called technical waves or technical fields and they're generated by man. They exist in nature for AC alternating [inaudible 00:42:39] waves is at a super low level. Hundreds of thousands, millions of time less than want to be exposed to and what we've evolved with, becoming human beings in the 20th century or 21st century.

August Brice: Imagine the modulation. And to me when you put that information on the signal because nature didn't put the data on the signal.

Rob Metzinger: That's a really good way of putting it. August you're right. Yeah, that sums it up quite nicely.

August Brice: And so can my meter, my safe living technology meter, can it also detect the waves that are made by nature?

Rob Metzinger: They are at such a low level that I don't think you'd be able to measure that August.

August Brice: Okay. Just curious. Wanted to know from the man who made it. And so, I know I keep saying it's the last question. This of course is the last question. First of all what's an electronics engineering technologists and how did you get into the field?

Rob Metzinger: Oh sure. Back in high school, just anything to say because I didn't want to get into the tech area and it was either machine shop or electronics so I chose the electronics path in the computer system area to go through. Computers were big in the late 80s and the first pc came on at that time so I thought it'd be a good field to get into and it was. It was a great field, I was in the computer service technology for 17, 18 years and that was a great place to be. I enjoyed my job and electronic engineering technologist basically is an [inaudible 00:44:33] engineer, the engineers, basically what I did was, I would test with engineers design and built and work with the [inaudible 00:44:40] to test these engineering designs and make sure they performed as they should perform. So that's what an electronic engineering technologist does. 

And then I was just able to apply that skills set to the electronic radiation field as well when I decided to switch over to this business. For me it was a gradual switch that took a while to understand how this will develop into a business and there's definitely opportunities there for technical people. And it also has a technical field and it's difficult to understand the concepts that are [inaudible 00:45:27] and I don't have any technical background. Has a good chance of doing quite well understanding all through [inaudible 00:45:35]

August Brice: Before we go, what's the one thing that we haven't talked about that you think everybody should know right now?

Rob Metzinger: Every level of reduction you can achieve in electro magnetic field exposure is worth taking. If you can just get it down a little bit, get it down a little bit, but it's all worth it. The less exposure we have to this, the higher quality of life would be experienced long term.

August Brice: Great. That's so good. And if people want to find you, if they want to get a hold of you, where can they find you and do you offer your services as a consultant or are we mainly just talking about the business now?

Rob Metzinger: Well, yeah I'm at Safe Living Technology inc. And we do offer consultation services, we have a large service provider list throughout the country as well. A well certified trained building biologist that can go on a home inspections for people and also the telephone consultation services. And that would be on our website under company and then local service providers.

August Brice: I love building biologists. I do have a listing and also if you really want to learn from Rob, Rob you're a teacher at the institute are you not?

Rob Metzinger: That's correct. Right now we just finished our [inaudible 00:46:59]12 advanced electronic radiation training online on Sunday. We're getting ready to do another course shortly in the next week or so and yeah building biology is a great way to get exposed to all the theory and the practicality they're actually doing some measurements to assess and determine field [inaudible 00:47:21] strengths for these fields and how to mitigate them.

August Brice: Absolutely. There's no trending like that, that the building biologist honestly. If you really are having issues in your home at any type of EMF, electromagnetic RF any type, definitely a building biologist is the person to call. And to think that you're an instructor I just have such great respect for you. Thank you so much Rob for doing this today.

Rob Metzinger: You're welcome August. It's my pleasure.

August Brice: And here are my five top take aways from my great interview with Rob Metzinger. EMF awareness is increasing daily, this is[inaudible 00:47:54] the only way to make sure you know how much wireless EMF is in your home, is to use a radio frequency meter. Make sure your meter is certified to be accurate. Number two, the best EMF protection is distancing yourself from the source reality, say distance is your friend. So put as much space as you can between you and your phone, your computer, the wireless speakers in your home et cetera or turn them off or on airplane.

Number three, shielding or blocking EMF is really a tricky proposition, so whether you're attempting to use a [inaudible 00:48:29] roof to block a cell phone tower in the neighborhood or metallic material on your walls or around your phone or laptop or on your body, it's important to use a meter before you shield and after to measure and verify the effectiveness. And four, as an engineer and EMF instructor, Rob helped us understand how metal material or shielding can reflect those electro magnetic fields, those invisible wireless energy signals away, but that means it can reflect it back to you so you have to be careful. We know he also told us that some people feel better with shielding clothing and some people don't. 

Number five, finally, even very low levels of EMF can affect you. Rob creates meters according to the building biology guidelines for the amount of EMF that can cause biological effects. Find a meter that has accuracy down to low levels of wireless radiation. And speaking of those we have in the notes a great discount to our two Safe Living Technology's meters on and they ship free.

Next podcast I've got another great guest. So the trick is to subscribe so you won't miss it. And it really helps to get the word out. If you can please give us a nice rating on Apple or wherever you get your podcast. Thanks for listening to thriving with technology from

]]> 2020-08-12T15:42:00-07:00 2020-10-23T18:30:58-07:00 Thriving with Technology Podcast: Contact Tracing on Your Smartphone. Should You Worry? August Brice


Available here too:



We asked USA Forensic our Cybersecurity specialist to chat with us about if we should update or not. Listen to the PODCAST here!

Here's the full transcription of the coversation:

August Brice: I'm so excited to have Matt Erickson and Bryan Neumeister, the cyber-team from USA Forensic.

August Brice: I always like to talk about some really fascinating thing that you're working on right now. Is there anything that we can talk about today that's exciting? Have you taken apart any phones recently to find something fascinating?

Matt Erickson: Generally speaking, we're using the exploit to jailbreak iPhones to get a lot more data than what the standard forensic processes can give us and it's way, way more data. Those are phones that are on older hardware and older operating systems. It's scary what you can see. You can see which applications were opened and where they were opened from. If it was the home screen or if it was running in the background, we opened it from there. There's a lot of new details we have access to now.

August Brice: Now, you said on older operating systems. Does that mean if we keep updating, maybe we can keep people, who might want to find out our business, from finding out our business, if we keep updating?

Matt Erickson: That's true in anything newer than an iPhone 10. iPhone 10's even on the latest operating system are still vulnerable to exploit for the jailbreak rather. The newer phones and the newer software combined are really, really the best thing for you.

August Brice: The main reason that we talk about this on Tech Wellness is because I want people to feel really comfortable that their phone is their phone and not somebody else's information. You know what I mean?

Matt Erickson: Correct.

August Brice: Tell me, if we do continue to keep our updates, because in part of our recommendations from you, Bryan, we talk about how important it is to keep updating our phones so that hackers can't get into them. So, Matt just talked about how easy it was with this new, whatever software/hardware you guys have, to see really, really incredible specifics about what people do on their phones. So if we keep updating, can we keep the hackers away?

Bryan Neumeiste...: The idea of an update is a couple of things. One is to plug leaks in the ship, so to speak. The second would be to add new abilities to a phone. The idea with an update is to limit the amount of access people have to your operating system. So with each new update, you're plugging exploits. However, people are always working on new exploits, so it's a continuing battle.

Matt Erickson: Yeah, that's exactly right. Currently, if you have an iPhone newer than the model 10, then you definitely want the latest operating system. Currently, that is not vulnerable to the exploit. However, iPhone 10 and older, regardless of the operating system, those can still be jailbroken without really much effort at all.

August Brice: Matt, this leads us to the whole controversy. There is a controversy going on about 13.5.1 because of the new contact tracing. Apple and Google have both said it's not actually an app but an API.

Matt Erickson: Correct. It requires an official app to function properly, which up to this point, there is not one released for this country. So, those settings are visibly disabled by default within iOS 13.5.1 and newer.

August Brice: Okay. Right now, what you're saying is we're safe from anybody using that API inappropriately.

Matt Erickson: I don't know if that's a guarantee, but-

Bryan Neumeiste...: Safe is a relative term. The genie has been let out of the bottle. That is available to people to run with as they please. Once you let a genie out of a bottle, there's no telling where it's going to end up.

August Brice: Somebody who probably shouldn't be doing what they're doing could use that API. Am I referring to it correctly?

Matt Erickson: Yes.

August Brice: Okay. Could use that API to install something on some phone to find out something that they really shouldn't be sharing.

Matt Erickson: It's a possibility. I think it would probably be awhile before something, I guess, develops, but the code framework is there. So, I think it's only a matter of time.

Bryan Neumeiste...: The other thing is who really wants something like this. Law enforcement, of course, would love to have it because you could literally see who's hanging out with who if you're doing drug interdiction or something like that. The question is, does everybody want somebody looking at where they are and who they're with? A lot of apps can do that anyway. They track your habits like Foursquare and those kinds of apps track where you go using the data for regional advertising. The question is, how much of your privacy do you want to give away? I think, it's the coin here.

August Brice: How much of my potential privacy would I be giving away if I did the update? By the way, I'm still on 13.3. I'm very happy there for now. Because I understand with 13.5, you're very vulnerable. And so if you are on 13.5, you should update to 13.5.1.

Bryan Neumeiste...: One thing that's important to know is it depends which model iPhone you're using and which software revision you're using, or version you're using because each one has... As Matt just said, the newer iPhones are less vulnerable than the older one. There's so many variables here. It's such an interesting field. It depends on what you mean by vulnerable and who's after you to get what because it does take some handshake between an app and a phone, especially on a jailbroken phone, to access stuff that you have that's private.

Matt Erickson: Yeah. 13.3 version iOS is vulnerable to an exploit for jailbreaking on every model except the iPhone SE generation two. All other models running that iOS can be jailbroken. Jailbroken phones are going to give you a lot more access to databases that are otherwise not accessible on a standard forensic process. So if law enforcement gets your phone, they're going to be able to jailbreak it very easily and see pretty much everything that happens on your phone, and everything you've done and your passwords, and everything like that.

August Brice: Okay. Technically, what does jailbreak mean and who can do a jailbreak?

Matt Erickson: Basically, it's just an altered version of the operating system, to put it simply. It tears down security walls basically, so software can run and do things that otherwise it was not permitted to do.

August Brice: Can anybody jailbreak my phone? Can somebody get into my phone without holding onto it and jailbreak it?

Matt Erickson: There's not a method I'm aware of currently that would allow that to happen. It's a method that they have to have your phone in hand to do that.

August Brice: Okay. That makes me feel a little better.

Bryan Neumeiste...: Another quick thing is you can set your dataport in such a way that it is not transmitting data unless it's unlocked, so that's an important thing to do on the newer iPhones.

August Brice: Hey. Can we put that tip on a blog? Can you send that to me-

Bryan Neumeiste...: Sure.

August Brice: ... step by step how to do that?

Matt Erickson: Yeah, absolutely.

August Brice: Great. Also, I'd really like to make this easy for everyone. So, can we get some sort of a chart or a schematic showing if you have this iPhone, you should be doing this version? Because you said all the versions we're different.

Bryan Neumeiste...: Yes.

Matt Erickson: Yes, that's correct. There's a snippet of what I sent yesterday that I'm happy to provide that's hosted publicly on a Reddit page that is used directly by one of the big forensic tools that we use.

August Brice: I'm shy about updating to 13.5.1 because I feel like it's opening up for not somebody who might jailbreak my phone but just for my health insurance company to eventually know something about me that probably should be private.

Bryan Neumeiste...: Well, there's a way to shut off the actual Bluetooth update that they installed. I think we can send you a map or a graphic of that.

August Brice: You mean just how to turn off auto updates? Is that what you're saying?

Bryan Neumeiste...: No, how to turn off that particular vulnerability for Bluetooth that if they do have a national app they can use the iOS update with, there is a way to shut that particular piece of data down.

August Brice: We will do that as well. Great. Okay. But like you said, Bryan, before, if it gets into the hands of the wrong person or the wrong mega developer and they somehow can access this information because of this new API that was put in, what's something that could happen to just about anybody?

Bryan Neumeiste...: Well, again, it's not a matter of if, it's a matter of when, as it always is when new technology comes out. That's just the nature of the business. It's really a Pandora's box. There's no way to tell how it can be used at this point, but there is a way to shut it off with the current operating system. Even if somebody does download an app, there's a current way you can shut it down. We'll send you a graphic on that so that it's very easy for people to make sure that even if they do get the app, that they're not transmitting their data.

August Brice: Okay. This is interesting because at this point, I'm not updating. But as I get more information, and this is what I've told my community, if you're unsure about it, give it some time. Let's get all the information on the table. Let's find out other people's experiences. Because as these things roll out, generally within a month, you know all of what are they, they're not-

Bryan Neumeiste...: Well, they're very often in the computers. For example, if you're running a Windows or Mac computer, you're going to get constantly updates. It's best usually to wait a bit, especially on Windows updates, to see what the community out there thinks of the update. Because with every change, there are programs that may not interact well with the frame network, frame updates or something of that nature. So very often, programs aren't compatible right away with the update and it might take them a little bit to catch up. So, you might not want to update your computer right away to the latest, greatest until you find out if the programs you're running are compatible with the update. That's going to be pretty apparent by what people are saying online.

August Brice: Right. We're going to get more information about this particular one. You know what's interesting? I've turned off my auto updates. I typically do not ever go on Wi-Fi, so that's a good thing. But, I do connect to the internet. My auto update hasn't come through. However, I've had several people comment on the post that I said, "Hey, be careful about auto updating to 13.5.1." Tell me that their phone auto updated even though it was disabled, the auto update function was disabled. Have you heard about that? Is there anything we can do to prevent it just in case?

Matt Erickson: I have heard about that. I've seen many cases where people are very unhappy about that. They confirm their auto updates are off and they did get the update.

August Brice: What happened and how can we stop it? How can we tell people to stop it and how come I'm so lucky that it hasn't auto updated?

Matt Erickson: I suspect it's the people that are already on 3.5 that are getting pushed to 3.5.1.

August Brice: Oh, okay.

Matt Erickson: This isn't confirmed, but I suspect it's because Apple deemed update critical to patch the new vulnerabilities. I think that's just something they push through for people that are on the preceding operating system.

Bryan Neumeiste...: Now, the workaround would obviously be if you turn off your Wi-Fi and you're on LTE data, you turn off your LTE data so it's just for voice. You're shutting down your data in and out over your phone system. There's a way to do that inside, a very simple way to just switch off what the phone does. It was originally put there for people that had limited data plans, but also a good way to shutdown stuff from coming into your phone because it just-

August Brice: Great.

Bryan Neumeiste...: ... does it for communication.

August Brice: Okay. And so, what will I lose if I turn that off?

Bryan Neumeiste...: Literally, any data from texts to whatever coming in.

August Brice: Okay. So, am I taking away too much functionality?

Bryan Neumeiste...: If you're using your phone as a phone and you're out there driving or whatever, that's one thing when you're out there. This is one thing I think we do just because we are in this field is we shutdown Wi-Fi and Bluetooth when we're not using it. We don't walk out the street with Wi-Fi and Bluetooth on. It's just senseless. You're just a beacon. So, it's a lifestyle choice. It's very simple to do. It's like picking up your car keys, you just do it before you walk out the door.

August Brice: Exactly. I do it because I don't want to be exposed to the EMF.

Bryan Neumeiste...: Yeah, everybody's got their own reasons. But if you want to be reasonably a little bit more secure, turn off your Wi-Fi and Bluetooth while you're walking around. I don't connect my iWatch to my Bluetooth except for updates.

August Brice: That's another important point, Bryan. The iWatch, it's updating as well, right?

Bryan Neumeiste...: Yeah, it should. The tracker is supposed to be able to work with the iWatch as I understand it too. There is no app that will accept or will use that new update yet because there's no national app that's been approved for it. So, it's just kind of sitting there lurking, but your iWatch is just as much of a beacon as your phone is in many cases.

August Brice: Can I read you one of the comments from someone who was very frustrated because they got an auto update?

Bryan Neumeiste...: Sure.

August Brice: Okay. This is part of the comment. She says, "I check my Apple Health tab daily to make sure the CV tracking remains off. I'm aware that it's just the API though I don't trust them." So, do you think it's important, after you've downloaded it, to check your Apple Health tab every day to make sure it's not running somehow in the background?

Matt Erickson: There's definitely no harm in checking. I don't think there's going to be any possibility for it to be enabled or functioning until that national app is released to the public. No one knows when that's going to happen. But yeah, there's no harm in checking. You just go through your Health settings and make sure the COVID tracking is disabled. It's got some way doing that.

August Brice: Every day, just in case, that's what she's doing. And then, she says, "When I go out, I have changed my normal behavior where I used to use my iPhone for many things like notes, lists, calendar, store, coupon apps, et cetera. Instead, I've invested in a Faraday bag and I put my cell phone on airplane mode and in my bag," which is awesome. She got one of my bags and you guys use a Faraday every day as well. That's how I roll that it's really interesting. Because as I read this, because this is the way I operate, because I read it from somebody else, I think, "Oh my gosh, really? The problem is it's not our phone, it's their phone." You know what I mean? It's like, "It's Apple's phone." She can't use it for notes and lists because she understands now it really isn't her information. It could be anyone's information.

Bryan Neumeiste...: I think people forget to read the ULA agreements and we're all guilty of that. Because for example, if you upload a photo to Facebook or to any app like that, they own it. That's in the ULA agreement. It could end up on a billboard and you have no rights to it depending on which app. So, these are the things you have to understand. But in general, I think just one of the things when you're mentioning that Health app there, in forensics, when you're doing a cellphone, the most data is going to be in the Health app. The thing that takes the longest is the Health app. It just eats up data on your phone. Matt, you deal with that every day. Why don't you walk through that?

Matt Erickson: Yeah. It processes steps and flights climbed and heartbeat, and all that. That amount of data is just massive on a device. I think the quantity of entries is really what takes it so long to process. But when you have that enabled, it is tracking as much as it can track at all times.

Bryan Neumeiste...: Yes.

August Brice: And so really quickly, you go into settings and you scroll down, and you find the Health app and you disable. Is there anything other than that to do?

Matt Erickson: That should cover it.

August Brice: But, this person looks everyday just to make sure it isn't somehow toggled on, which is interesting because sometimes, things just update automatically. All of a sudden, you're looking and you're like, "Wait, I didn't have Siri on for anything. Now, Siri's on for everything." It's crazy how it is out of our control.

Bryan Neumeiste...: Literally, every time there's a computer update, I go through my privacy on my computer and spend 20 minutes making sure that everything is shutdown because there's so many ways they want to grab data from you, from browsers to whatnot. But every time you do an update, they usually want to reset all the privacy settings. That's the first thing you've got to do is go through that. That's just nature of the beast.

August Brice: Exactly. That's why, as a rule, I don't auto up and I turn auto update off on everything. But then, I go in. I look and I go, "Oh, hey, it says that Instagram needs an update." And so of course, I want to update Instagram because I just want to make sure that they're protecting my safety to whatever extent they can. And so, I'll do the update and then I'll find that other things are affected. It's crazy.

Bryan Neumeiste...: Yeah. It's very much that way with computers and I say for Windows users. For me, NET Framework update's always been the thing that causes issues with the type of programs we run. That's just something that the developers for forensic materials aren't huge companies, so they don't often get the framework to work with before it comes out or very shortly before it comes out. So, there's all of a sudden catch up in lag time. So, you don't want to be updating until that's patched by the manufacturer of the forensic software.

August Brice: Right. We're talking about iPhone, but actually this is an Android update as well. I understand with the Android, you didn't even get the opportunity to say no, don't update. Is that true?

Matt Erickson: I haven't seen Android version that released that directly, but that's what I'm reading as well. It's just basically on for Android.

August Brice: Right. It's on. You don't even get a chance to say no. They're saying, "But wait, it's not an app, it's just API." So really quickly, define API.

Matt Erickson: It's an application programming interface. Essentially, it's just a way for applications to communicate with data within the operating system. There's certain functions and features built into any operating system. The API just enables developers to create an application or a function of some sort that communicates with the data stored in an operating system.

August Brice: Okay, so it's all ready for the app. For any app that might want to use whatever that secret sauce is that enables the tracking, it's ready.

Matt Erickson: Exactly.

August Brice: That's scary. I want to ask you guys, are you updated? Did you update?

Matt Erickson: Yes.

August Brice: You did?

Matt Erickson: Yes.

August Brice: Okay. What are you going to say to me because I didn't update? I'm at 13.3.1.

Matt Erickson: What model phone are you running?

August Brice: I have an XS Pro on 13.3.

Matt Erickson: From my standpoint, your phone's vulnerable to the exploit for jailbreaks at this point. So if someone did get their hands on your device, they could install that jailbreak and basically see everything. I mean, everything.

August Brice: I'm not so worried about that because, first of all, I don't expect to be picked up.

Matt Erickson: Right.

August Brice: I don't expect to be in a situation where anybody has my phone because my phone's typically at home. It's just the way I use my phone. I don't really use it that much. And so, I text and I Signal and I ProtonMail. Hey, Bryan, what's the latest app we're supposed to be using other than Signal? What's the latest one?

Bryan Neumeiste...: Threema. Threema is what we've switched to. Signal is vulnerable to us. In fact, we can actually extract Signal at this point. So, what it used to have was some bit of... It was elusive to forensic apps now, that's no longer the case, depending on a number of factors. But let's just say in general, that bridge is across now to Signal.

August Brice: Okay. I'm heading over to Threema. That's how I use my phone. It's basically just for texting communication, online on my computer.

Matt Erickson: Let me clarify one thing. It doesn't require a law enforcement to jailbreak the phone. So if you're walking along and you drop your phone on the street by accident, and you don't realize that anybody that's tech savvy can pick up your phone, and if you're on the latest version with your exact model, they're not going to be able to do a jailbreak and see any of your data. If you are vulnerable to a jailbreak, they can install that very easily. There's a lot less security holes in the later operating system. They're going to be able to exploit and see anything, just in case you lose your phone.

August Brice: So then, I should update to 13.5.1 is what you're telling me?

Matt Erickson: Correct.

Bryan Neumeiste...: Yes. Also think of this, if you have any corporate or personal data on there you wouldn't want to share, it would be vulnerable as it is. With the new update, it wouldn't. That's something you know. Of course, you obviously have your face ID off and any kind of palm reader on.

August Brice: Of course.

Matt Erickson: I can tell you this, with the phones that I do where I jailbreak them to get more data, it tells you everything. If you're running a phone that's not able to be jailbroken, email is by default encrypted on a device. So just a standard extraction, we can't see email.

August Brice: That's good.

Matt Erickson: Yeah. But with the jailbreak, it shows you everything.

August Brice: To that point, it's probably recording anyway even though I haven't enabled it.

Bryan Neumeiste...: No, because it would show on the amount of data used in your hard drive space or your drive space basically.

Matt Erickson: If you open up your Health app and look at your number of steps, if it's showing you steps, then it's definitely recording.

August Brice: Yeah. No, it's not.

Matt Erickson: But if it's not, then it's not running.

August Brice: I tell people because we were like, "What Faraday Faraday?" You know what I mean? It's like, it's the GPS. You were saying, though, somebody would physically have to have possession of my phone to do a jailbreak.

Matt Erickson: Correct. Yes.

August Brice: Anybody, somebody, it might not be somebody nice. It might not be the police. It could just be some idiot who's out to get me.

Matt Erickson: Right.

Bryan Neumeiste...: Corporate espionage would be somebody steals your phone and gets your corporate texts. That would be something.

August Brice: Okay. And so if I update, won't there be somebody that's creating something that allows that jailbreak on the next update too?

Matt Erickson: Always.

August Brice: Okay.

Matt Erickson: That's in progress, for sure. But these days, there's two hurdles for them. It's not just the operating system. There's also encrypted hardware around the chips that are in the phone. So, it's taking them much, much longer these days to get those going.

Bryan Neumeiste...: For example, if somebody installed a nanny app or something like that, it also blocks transmission. Don't limit yourself to the amount of they give you a default amount of numbers for your password. Add a couple because that requires you to use the okay button. The okay button circumvents the GrayKey hack, which is a long way around of saying if you add a couple of numbers to your passcode, like just two numbers, that's going to make it a lot safer than the standard set up that comes from the iPhone.

August Brice: What about alphabetical? Would you recommend alphabetical over numeric?

Bryan Neumeiste...: It's the same. It doesn't really matter. You're just pushing buttons basically, an unlock sequence. But if you add to unlock sequence, you're changing the default, which is what most GrayKey and those kinds of cracking apps look for. We have ours with more digits. You'd have to do one more step to open our phones than you would with a normal iPhone.

August Brice: But, I have a long sentence.

Bryan Neumeiste...: You used a statement, you're good.

August Brice: Oh, it's fun. Thanks, you guys. Matt Erickson, Bryan Neumeister, USA Forensic, thank you so much for almost convincing me that I better update to 13.5.1.

]]> 2019-06-20T18:23:00-07:00 2019-06-20T18:23:40-07:00 Thriving with Technology Podcast: GOOD NEWS about social media addiction. Here's what you can do August Brice


Available here too:



Your Brain on Social Media with Dr. Ofir Turel

This week, August talks with Dr Ofir Turel, a research who studies digital addiction.  He shares a simple strategy for helping yourself or loved ones who are spending too much time on social media platforms.


Here's the full transcript of our conversation with Dr. Turel:

August Brice: Okay, Dr. Turel. So you're a Professor of Information Systems and Decision Sciences.

Dr. Ofir Turel: That is correct.

August Brice: That's an incredible title, I love it.

Dr. Ofir Turel: Yeah, well. I got used to it.

August Brice: Is there actually a School of Information Systems and Decision Sciences?

Dr. Ofir Turel: No, it's under the business school, the Mihaylo College of Business and Economics at California State University Fullerton.

August Brice: Okay, where are you from?

Dr. Ofir Turel: I moved here from Canada.

August Brice: Oh you are from Canada, I think it's so great for Cal State Fullerton to have someone like you. I mean you are one of the leading researchers in social media and addictions, right?

Dr. Ofir Turel: Well, if you say so yeah, thank you.

August Brice: I think so. I'm so excited to talk about the studyn because I don't know if you've looked at my site. If you visited Tech, did you get a chance to visit-

Dr. Ofir Turel: Very briefly yesterday, wonderful. Wonderful site. Thank you.

August Brice: Well, as you know, one of my experts is Dr. Kimberly Young, who coined the term Internet addiction back in the 90s. Are you familiar with her?

Dr. Ofir Turel: I am familiar with her work, never met her, but I am very familiar with her works. Yes.

August Brice: Well, she was really a trailblazer back in the day, right? When people thought she was crazy. And the interesting thing is, I think today, we still have a lot of people that really are not convinced that there actually could be an addiction to anything on the internet, including social media.

Dr. Ofir Turel: Yeah, I think that the core problem with this statement, or with believing that the reason addiction is that there is disagreement about what addiction means. And it's not just about technology over the internet. It's in general, I mean, people use many term to behaviors, problematic behaviors, and the internet is not just the first thing that raised controversies regarding possible addictions, think about issues such as gambling.

Dr. Ofir Turel: Gambling is not fully accepted as an addiction. I mean, everybody knows that there are people with gambling problems, but not everybody agrees that this should be called an addiction.

August Brice: Well, what do you think?

Dr. Ofir Turel: I have no preference as long as we solve the issue and treat these people, it doesn't matter how you call it. You see there are different stakeholders in this business, of course there is the medical care providers, there is the insurance company, health insurance companies and everything you do has implications many, I guess, broader implications.

Dr. Ofir Turel: So it's not a simple question. I don't think that we could overnight call everything we do an addiction. That would over-pathologize many people who I mean, have some problems or excessively use, let's say video games, but it's not going to be an easy transition. We need to make sure before we put this label on people, you're an addict. We want to make sure that we know what it means. We want to make sure that there is strong science behind it.

August Brice: Yeah, but I think a lot of parents, and a lot of, you know, young women, young men, I know you really highlighted that there was a big difference in the brains of young women on social media versus men. But I know a lot of us are concerned, just what it's doing to us emotionally. And whether you call it an addiction, an obsession, a compulsion.

August Brice: It's the fact that we're a bit controlled by the social media and not controlled in a good way. We're sacrificing maybe other more important things in our life. And so if it's not an addiction, would you just want to call it a social media problem?

Dr. Ofir Turel: Yeah, in many of my studies we call it problematic use of social media. And the problems are not necessarily you see, when you say addiction, it means that it manifests itself in typical addiction symptoms, like withdrawal, inability to control your behavior, the constant need to increase the use of social media. And we don't necessarily see all of these problems in many of the users who present what they call social media addictions.

Dr. Ofir Turel: So at this point, terminology is not clear. I'm not advocating any terminology at this point. I just want to say that you know, we should be careful with the over-pathologizing issue. We don't want to call 50% of the population of users as addicted to social media. We know there are issues, we know that we want to fix them. But how we call these issues that's a different story.

August Brice: Gotcha. I'm totally on board. I really am excited though. With your research on what happens to our brains. When you've taken people, did you call them addicted? Or did you call them heavy users of social media? Tell me about the way you define people in the study.

Dr. Ofir Turel: Well, normally when I recruit people and try to find those who are sort of addicted, quote unquote, we look for people who are heavy users. And then we subject them to screening. We give them questionnaires that ask them about withdrawal symptoms and constant need to increase the behavior and problems that may be related to the use, excessive use of social media, for example, deteriorated functioning in school, deteriorated social life.

Dr. Ofir Turel: And based on that we give them a score. So we don't normally classify them as addicted versus non addicted. We use the score as a continuous variable. So some people would have very low scores on the addiction scale, some people may have very high scores on the addiction scale. Where to put the cut off and say, you know, if you are above this threshold, you're addicted. That's a scientific question that has not been addressed yet.

August Brice: Right? So you took people that were basically heavy users, and compared them to people who weren't. And you looked at their brains and then you try to find-

Dr. Ofir Turel: It's not just heavy users. We made sure that they meet common addiction criteria, or they have very high score on these addiction criteria.

August Brice: Okay, so you were looking for people that were heavy users and that we don't like to use the term addicted, but quote, unquote, addicted?

Dr. Ofir Turel: What I call them is present addiction like symptoms, like withdrawal symptoms, for example. But withdrawal symptoms in the case of social media may be just feeling agitated a little bit when you're prevented from accessing your social media as opposed to, you know, foaming and having headaches and physiological symptoms, when you're prevented from using illicit substances in some cases.

August Brice: Okay, and that's what you tried to do, because a lot of people compare like you said gambling addictions, drug addictions, internet addictions, they compare the different symptoms. And so and that's how they try to identify the quote unquote, addictions or how did you say it people... addictive like qualities?

Dr. Ofir Turel: Who present addiction like symptoms.

August Brice: Addiction like symptoms, okay. So you were looking because we've done studies of brains of people who are addicted to chemicals, and so you were looking for the difference or the similarities in brains of people who were presenting addictive like symptoms.

Dr. Ofir Turel: Correct.

August Brice: Got it? Okay. Okay. So what did you find out?

Dr. Ofir Turel: We found that there were some similarities. But importantly there were also some differences between the brains of people are addicted... so called addicted to social media and those who are addicted to substances. The similarity relates to being or having hypersensitive reward system in the brain. So this is the system that releases dopamine makes us feel good, every time we experience something pleasurable.

August Brice: Yes, we've heard a lot about dopamine, in relation to everything about our devices, right in relationship to likes, notifications, even texting can release dopamine in our brains, and it's very exciting. It's a feel good chemical. Correct?

Dr. Ofir Turel: Correct. So every time we for example, eat a cake or something that we enjoy. The brain releases dopamine, it makes us feel good and basically trains the brain to want more of what we just experienced.

August Brice: Okay, so you looked at the dopamine in the brains of these heavy users of social media, and compared it to, what? To people who are addicted to other chemicals?

Dr. Ofir Turel: No, we didn't. That would be an interesting study. We compared people with low scores on the addiction scale, versus people with high scores on the addiction scale.

August Brice: Okay. Go ahead.

Dr. Ofir Turel: And what happened? I mean, there are different levels of differences. So, one type of studies is functionality or functioning studies, where we look at activity in these brain regions. And this brain region was much more active in response to social media images, compared to people with low addiction scores.

Dr. Ofir Turel: So that means it's more sensitive. It responds faster to these social media cues, so, whenever you see someone using social media or even someone using a cell phone, it triggers this cue in your brain and basically the system creates motivation to want or desire if even this behavior.

August Brice: So, really these are the people who are enjoying it more.

Dr. Ofir Turel: Yes, yes. But you know, it becomes out of control in some cases. So, and the system is also smaller meaning it has lower gray matter volume in people who present higher addiction scores.

August Brice: Okay, so let's talk a second about what is gray matter? Why is it important that we have more of it versus less of it?

Dr. Ofir Turel: Okay. It's, basically the number of neurons and it defines your computational capacity of a certain brain region. So-

August Brice: It's important.

Dr. Ofir Turel: It is important. Having less or more though, is not always, does not always carry the same meaning. Sometimes having more is better. Sometimes having less is better. In the case of the reward system, having less means that you need to think about it as having a smaller engine in a car. So you need to push more gas into this engine to produce the same acceleration as you would have with a larger engine or power, I guess. Right? So what it means in the case of the brain is that we need more of the activity, social media use in our case to release the same amount of dopamine that you would have or expect with the larger brain region.

August Brice: Okay, I get it. So this creates the compulsion and the obsession because we want more and we have less gray matter to push it through.

Dr. Ofir Turel: We have lower capacity to produce dopamine, to release dopamine, so we want more of the activity to produce the same level of dopamine that would satisfy us.

August Brice: And so, do you conclude that they started with less gray matter-

Dr. Ofir Turel: Yes.

August Brice: And so they need more or do you conclude that we actually had a decrease in gray matter because of the social media use?

Dr. Ofir Turel: Very important question. We don't know. Because most of our studies are correlation in nature, meaning that we don't, we cannot infer cause and effect in our studies. So, we do not know if some people had in advance a priori lower gray matter volume and this is why they developed addiction, in our case sort of addiction to social media.

Dr. Ofir Turel: Or it could be that excessive use of social media created such level of enjoyment, that basically this brain region adapted and became smaller so sometimes neurons die in this being trimmed, or what we call pruned. And this happens in many cases when there is over excitement, at least in substance use, this is what we see. So with substances, we know that this brain region changes in many cases.

Dr. Ofir Turel: But one explanation does not disqualify the other, it could be that both explanations are valid. There is a third explanation, by the way, that is some... And this has some evidence for support in the literature, that there are some genetic mutations that basically affect the reward system for some people.

Dr. Ofir Turel: And these are the people who are more likely to become alcoholics or addicted to substances and possibly also use social media. And if you think about it, using social media or video games is a relatively healthy addiction compared to the other substance addictions out there.

August Brice: Ah, that's true. So I think it's more about how either parents you know, of young kids or even of adolescence, teenagers, how the parents might feel about the way the kids are using it and thinking that it might be interfering with other healthy aspects of their lives. Or it's how we feel about it, ourselves if we feel that we're too obsessed, so when do you know? And what do you suggest people do?

Dr. Ofir Turel: You are right in saying that, it's not about how much you use the technology. Some people may use technology all day like I work on my computer all day doesn't make me an addict. Things become an addiction or a problem, if you will, if they interfere with normal functioning, and to what extent they interfere with normal functioning.

Dr. Ofir Turel: That's a medical question, I guess that is not well defined. So if you look at the Diagnostic and Statistic Manual, they don't explain what it means to have important impairment in normal funct... or large impairment in normal function. What is large, what is meaningful, it's not well defined.

Dr. Ofir Turel: So for some people minor reduction in grades in school may be major influence of a major reduction in normal functioning. For others, it may require more than that. So I think we all need to just pay attention. Just be more aware of what technology does to us and when it interferes with what we want to see as normal functioning.

Dr. Ofir Turel: If our normal functioning is sitting and playing video games all day then, that's fine. But if you see that, basically you lose your job, your grades deteriorate if you are a child, if you lose social contact with other people that you wanted to stay in touch with. That means that there is some negative influence of the way you use technology on normal functioning and this is where things get unhealthy and require some intervention.

August Brice: Okay. And then what are those interventions? Because see, I get a lot of requests from moms, and a lot of concern parents who talk to me about the fact that they see their children obsessed with their technology, they see that their children are quickly turning to their phones, any second that they get. And once they're in a game, or once they're on their Instagram of their Snapchat or their TikTok, they just can't get them off of it.

August Brice: And their joy, and their intensity is so great, when they're actually interacting with their device, but then they seem almost depressed or not able to interact on just the normal, you know, level that you would with friends and family. So that's where I see the concern. And I hear what you're saying that it's not, you know, keep it under control.

August Brice: It's fine as long as it didn't affect your health. So their health isn't being affected, but they just don't feel that it's healthy, normal behavior. So what do you do to prevent it? And what do you do once you get to that point?

Dr. Ofir Turel: It's not about health, it's about normal functioning. The other part of the set of studies I started mentioning about the brain is the self control system in the brain. So it's not just about rewards that motivate behavior, we have another system in the brain that governs self control.

Dr. Ofir Turel: And basically, this is the system that tells us when we see a piece of cake, it's yummy, we know, we know it's going to release dopamine in the brain. So that creates motivation to consume the cake. But then there is the other part of the brain that tells us you know what, that's not good for you. That's unhealthy. You already have enough sugar today.

Dr. Ofir Turel: Don't eat this piece of cake. So this is the self control system. And in many cases of addiction this system is hypoactive, meaning it's less active, it's weaker, it doesn't have the control abilities that we would like to have. In the cases of social media addiction, we did not find impairment in the system, which is good news.

Dr. Ofir Turel: That means that if people have strong enough motivation to self control their behavior, they could do that. It's not that their brain is not in order and things need to be fixed, they have the capability they just need to have the motivation to do it. So-

August Brice: That's huge. This is really important.

Dr. Ofir Turel: I'm not saying it's relevant for everyone, I'm sure in extreme cases, there are people with impairments to their self control system, but on average, even excessive users have self control abilities. And that means that having a talk with your child is important. Just explaining these are the risks. This is what happens.

Dr. Ofir Turel: We don't want to prevent the use of technology and it's healthy to use technology to some extent. But at some point you need to sort of self regulate and control your behavior. It can work in some cases, not in all cases. So I'm sure you discussed it with Dr. Young as well. I mean, she is probably more severe cases where other treatment approaches are needed.

Dr. Ofir Turel: If you look at the average person that is slight excessive gamer or excessive social media user, in many cases, just trying to self control the behavior through understanding, rationalizing that this is unhealthy is going to be good enough. And there are many ways to do it.

Dr. Ofir Turel: So now, if you think about not all of them, but many technology service providers now allow you to view how much time you spent on the technology. So iOS 12 in iPhone, yeah, Facebook gives you that. So it's easy to sort of monitor how much time is spent on these activities. And it's also easy to restrict them.

Dr. Ofir Turel: So there are many applications out there that would allow you to block content of certain types after certain hours allowing you only to spend certain amount of time with certain activities. But again, these are just technical solutions. I think that the first step is basically understand that this is a bit unhealthy, therefore you need to control it.

Dr. Ofir Turel: I like to see many cases or I always say that technology is like food, we cannot live without it nowadays. It's not that we expect people to go back to the woods and, you know, do-

August Brice: Of course.

Dr. Ofir Turel: Avoid technology at all. We cannot do that. At the same time like food, we need to be mindful of what we intake or about our food intake in this case about our technology intake or technology diet and try to control it.

August Brice: I love the findings. I love what you have explained to us about the control center. I think that's huge. And I think a lot of parents will feel really encouraged by that information, because then it more of a learning for the child, instead of oh my gosh, this is a medical issue that we need help for. And yes, Dr. Young talks a lot about the digital diet. She brought it up 20 years ago, and I think it's amazing. And it works. Just like food, just exactly what you're saying.

Dr. Ofir Turel: Not just the intake, it's also the schedule.

August Brice: Right.

Dr. Ofir Turel: So you could say, okay, social media, just from 7pm to 8pm. That's it.

August Brice: I'm with you. I get it. There's this uprising, though, of this idea that parents should mentor versus monitor. And it really seems to be, because I was fortunate enough to bring up my kids partially without technology when they were little. And then as they got older, of course, there was a lot of technology around, I could see that really being a parent was being a very involved parent.

August Brice: And so the mentoring versus monitoring approach means that you're with them all the time going through their technology with them. You're looking at the social media feed with them. You're talking to them about what they're seeing. You're talking to them about how they feel. You're talking to them about bullies and not bullying and appropriate behavior online. And that's a great idea.

August Brice: But I think it's difficult when that third person in the room, of course, is the phone. And you can't really be with your child 24/7 to mentor them through everything. So what do you think about that approach?

Dr. Ofir Turel: Oh, it's wonderful if it's feasible, so not all children, depending on the age, right? So not all of them would let you get involved in their social media activities or video gaming activities. But certainly anything that is tilted toward mentoring more than monitoring is better but I think a little bit of both is good.

Dr. Ofir Turel: Like you want to monitor, you want a mentor, you want to do everything you can to make sure they develop healthy behaviors. At the end of the day, it could have long, long term consequences. In one of our studies done in Canada, we looked at video games addiction in children, young children, nine to 17 years old.

Dr. Ofir Turel: We looked at their sleep habits, their levels of obesity and basically excessive video gaming was linked to poor sleep and poor sleep, sleep regulates the release of hormones that govern appetite in the stomach. So poor sleep basically lead to increased obesity and cardio metabolic risks.

Dr. Ofir Turel: When children develop these sort of cardio metabolic risks, it's very difficult to eliminate them later on in life, they develop higher risks of having heart attacks before the age of 50. And so there are many statistics about it. There are many facets that you know should be controlled and...

August Brice: I think you just made a huge case for monitoring, right?

Dr. Ofir Turel: Yes. That's why I'm saying, you need to balance monitoring, you need to balance mentoring, you know. In reality, not all parents are capable of monitoring, some of them have to work like three jobs. And you know, they're not always there in their children's lives. So it's not feasible to mentor all the time.

August Brice: But Dr. Turel, you're leaving me to ask the question that every parent really wants just the hard answer to which is, well then how much? How much is too much video gaming every day? And at what age should we start letting the kids play?

Dr. Ofir Turel: Let me start by saying that I'm totally not against video games, I think a little bit of video gaming is healthy actually, because there are studies showing that it displaces other relatively undesirable activities. For example, children who play a little bit of video gaming use less substances, illicit substances compared to children who do not play video games.

August Brice: How old are these children using illicit substances how old?

Dr. Ofir Turel: In this study specifically, it was 13 to 16 years old or 13 to 17.

August Brice: Okay, big kids.

Dr. Ofir Turel: Teenagers. So what happens basically, when you think about it playing video games, in many cases, if you live in a rough neighborhood, it's a good displacement. It's better playing video games at home than hanging out on the streets and getting exposed to substances, violence and so on. So video games by themselves, and also there is much evidence that video games help with certain skills. So there was a large study showing that actually one hour of video gaming helped improve motor skills, hand-eye coordination, which is important, especially if you want to play baseball and things like that.

August Brice: Fly a helicopter.

Dr. Ofir Turel: Fly a helicopter. Yeah, I mean, there are lots of be a surgeon, be a dentist. I mean, there are a lot of jobs that require good hand-eye coordination.

August Brice: An hour a day.

Dr. Ofir Turel: A hour a week actually. It was one and a half hours a week or something like that. So it wasn't much. So little bit is okay and it improves certain skills. After that it doesn't contribute much. So if you play three hours a week or five hours a week doesn't do much in terms of further improvements to hand-eye coordination, but it creates school problems if you play more than 40 hours a week.

August Brice: It's just like we say all the time, at Tech Wellness, it's about balance. It's about balance with every aspect of our technology. It really is.

Dr. Ofir Turel: Yeah, to your question before there is no like magic number, this is what's working for you. It really depends on your school load on your social involvement and other things. So I think the where you need to put the cutoff is where things get a little bit messy in terms of normal functioning. And what is normal functioning depends or varies from one family to another.

Dr. Ofir Turel: So you should look at things like school performance, social performance, things like that. And basically, consider if they're healthy or not, and if they're not healthy, then it's time to have this discussion with your child or stronger mentoring and monitoring activities, like you mentioned.

August Brice: We hear a lot from parents about how their children seem to be more in their zone, when they're on social media and when they're playing games than they are in normal functioning life. And so seeing that, I can understand how it's difficult for a parent to say, "Get off your social media, no more Instagram today, no more Snapchat today. No more selfies today. And no more gaming today."

August Brice: But at the same time, it's when the kids are actually laughing and smiling and, and having great energy. What do your studies say about that? About behavior and emotions? And like I said, normal communication because technology is like really their vehicle where they're feeling normal.

Dr. Ofir Turel: We're having the first or even second generation now that basically grew up with technology. And they start using iPads by the age of one and, and play games and watch videos, and they're very tech savvy, certainly more tech savvy than many of the parents. They know what to do, and they feel natural with technology.

Dr. Ofir Turel: But at the same time, it doesn't mean that they should use it too excessively. Think about the generations, like 100 years ago, food was scarce, people grew up with not much food then, if you think about after the 50s we are the first generation that abundant of food and that no need to look for extra food. It doesn't mean that they need to eat more.

Dr. Ofir Turel: It just means that now they have access to food and they know how to find good restaurants but they just need to decide to what extent they want to eat and how much they want to eat, where they want to eat. So they have more flexibility. And I think this is like the young generation nowadays. So they have access to technology, they know how to use it, they're very comfortable with it.

Dr. Ofir Turel: But it doesn't mean that they should use it excessively and rely solely on technology. There are many other things in life beyond that.

August Brice: So what was the biggest learning from your study? I... do you have kids?

Dr. Ofir Turel: I am a parent. Yes.

August Brice: Okay. So how does this apply to, what you do as a dad? And what you allow your children to do on their technology?

Dr. Ofir Turel: So exactly like you mentioned, there is a little bit of mentoring. There is a little bit of monitoring but there is also some hands off approach in many cases because it's impossible to be fully involved in whatever children do with technology especially since it is weaved to many other aspects of life like school work.

Dr. Ofir Turel: So a lot of school work is now done via computer. So on the cell phone, children could compare answers or discuss assignments over social media. So it's impossible to totally be involved in it or eliminate it. But I try to make sure that I know what is done. And when things are a bit excessive and you could see it through our grade and social activity.

Dr. Ofir Turel: Grade reductions and social activities that you could sense that things are a little bit off and then you could increase monitoring, even prevent technology use in some cases.

August Brice: Yeah. So it's just, you're just being a mindful, intuitive parent?

Dr. Ofir Turel: I guess so, yeah.

August Brice: Yeah. It's good. Well, you know, I feel if you've looked at Tech Wellness, I have a really strong feeling about the electromagnetic energy that comes from the device, and the blue light that comes from the device as well as all of the other emotionally addictive components of our devices.

August Brice: So I think the combination can be harmful. So to me, if we're going to use technology, we use orange glasses and we use a stylus. So that we're not as close to the energy and we put the phone on airplane mode, or we connect it the internet so that we're not exposed to RF radiation.

August Brice: So I think all those things in combination add up to good healthy use with our technology. But particularly with social media, I just did a story on how selfies actually decrease a woman's self esteem and confidence and anxiety, just by virtue of taking them. How do you think that compares to what you found out about gray matter and adaptation in your study?

Dr. Ofir Turel: Well this is just... it's not directly related to the findings of my studies. But certainly, it's another problematic aspect of social media. Because people compare themselves I mean, it's a natural thing. We always compare ourselves to others when we grew up, we had our friends so we had like a small circle to compare ourselves to.

Dr. Ofir Turel: Now people have thousands of friends for potential comparison or reference points, and many of them are things that you could, I guess personalities or individuals that you could easily envy if you have millions of followers, and you are Kim Kardashians and so on. You compare yourself to these individuals.

Dr. Ofir Turel: And that puts you in a very defensive, weak spot. And of course, this is unhealthy. So again, being mindful can help with this regard as well. So, you know, there are a lot of influential people on social media, a lot of people with a lot of wealth and better pictures, better selfies than yours.

Dr. Ofir Turel: But if you're mindful of how social media works, and how it promotes these individuals, and you train yourself not to feel bad about it, that's going to be, you're going to have a healthier relationship with your social media. If not, you're going to develop things like envy in others, and obviously this is very unhealthy because you set yourself goals that are unattainable.

Dr. Ofir Turel: I mean, most people are not going to reach the level of influence, or looks or number of followers whatever metric you want to use, of the big names on social media.

August Brice: If they task.

Dr. Ofir Turel: Yeah, if that's your goal, you're set for failure.

August Brice: Yeah. Well, did you see that in your homeland, Canada, Instagram has a pilot study where they are taking off the like button for all followers to see. So you go on and you look at Kim Kardashian, but you don't see how many likes she has. And they're thinking about rolling this out all of Instagram. What do you think about that idea?

Dr. Ofir Turel: I mean, it has advantages and disadvantages. First of all, they just rolled it out on experimental basis. So I don't know if they're going to continue with that. We shall wait and see and we want to see if it works for them. So basically, they're portraying themselves as well-being conscious, they realize that you know, chasing likes is unhealthy and therefore they try to eliminate that.

Dr. Ofir Turel: Is it good for the bottom line? I don't know. I mean many people may appreciate that but at the same time keeping on scrolling for likes, checking social media again and again to see if you have more likes, creates traffic for them and traffic is their source of revenue eventually.

August Brice: Yes, but you're not questioning whether or not it's actually good for the psyche or the soul right? You're saying it's probably good.

Dr. Ofir Turel: Yeah. So from an Instagram standpoint, I don't know if it's good or bad. But from a user standpoint, it's excellent. Because basically, it eliminates this temptation, this chase after likes. People constantly keep on checking likes because it's like gambling.

Dr. Ofir Turel: You post a picture you don't know if you're going to get five likes or 100 likes and you keep on checking. If you have more likes and more likes. It's very tempting. This is a very unhealthy behavior, especially when you compare yourself to other people who have more likes than you have.

August Brice: And that's where the gray matter comes in.

Dr. Ofir Turel: Yeah, so it's all about the reward system in the brain. So this is where it ties to my studies, I guess. The use of social media is driven by rewards by social rewards that every time we get like, dopamine is released in our brain. And every time someone comments on our post positively, I guess it releases dopamine in our brain. Our brain is trained to look for more of these dopamine releases. And therefore we repeat this behavior again and again. It's sometimes excessively, sometimes in very dangerous situations, by the way. Like using social media while driving is very common nowadays.

August Brice: Right. That's huge. That's a whole separate idea. But as far as this gray matter goes, and we know that lack of gray matter, and what appeared to be social media addictive symptoms correlated. So little brain matter more social media addiction. How can we increase the gray matter?

Dr. Ofir Turel: So that's a very medical question. The intent is not necessarily to increase gray matter. So we have in addicted individuals, we have lower gray matter in the reward system, but their self control system is intact. Which means that they just need to activate whatever motivation to activate the self control system, and that's it.

Dr. Ofir Turel: Growing gray matter that's... there are many solutions, ranging from pharmacology, to, but again, you have to targets very specific regions. Or maybe if you stop rewarding behaviors, if you train yourself, you could grow neurons in this region. But again, I don't think that should be a target.

Dr. Ofir Turel: The target should be basically to activate your self control system. It's not bad to have craving to use social media, that's okay. As long as you can control it. So craving by itself is not bad. If you cannot control it, that becomes an issue.

August Brice: Tell an addicted person, how to control.

Dr. Ofir Turel: First of all, it's like the first step in any addiction treatment, I guess. Just acknowledge that you have an issue. In many cases, people just don't realize that they have an issue because the symptoms are so benign. I mean, what happens if you play video games excessively. You still enjoy with a bunch of friends online, by the time your school grades deteriorate, it's too late. It's like two years down the road. So you don't or many people don't feel the symptoms immediately. It's not like substance addiction.

August Brice: Right. Let's take it back to social media. So how do you tell somebody who's looking at their feed 20 times an hour that it's time to pull back and have some self control?

Dr. Ofir Turel: Well, again, it goes back to whether it interferes with normal functioning and it varies from one individual to another.

August Brice: You might not think it is, if you're doing it yourself, you're like, hey, it's fine. It's the people around you who will say, "Hey Lizzie, that's a little too much."

Dr. Ofir Turel: Yeah. So this is where parents have a discussion. And there are many ways that people could basically help themselves with this. For example, when you work on school assignments or work assignments, just put the cell phone away. It's very distracting to have these new message beeps from friends all the time, or eliminate notifications on my email. I don't have notifications because it's almost impossible to work with new emails pop up every second, put the phone away. That's the easiest way to control it. You don't need any technical measure. You work in a particular room, put the phone somewhere else.

August Brice: And that somewhere else is very important. I'm sure you're familiar with that study from Texas, the Distraction Study. How they put the phone down right in front of you and your cognition was impaired. They took the phone and put it in another room away. And that was the only way that it didn't interrupt your cognitive function.

Dr. Ofir Turel: So even if the phone is next to you, always I mean, it's a cue. It's associated in your brain with dopamine release. So you're always busy, your brain is busy trying to self control the temptation to check your phone. So the easiest-

August Brice: Even if it's off, that's the important-

Dr. Ofir Turel: Even if it's off face down, you just need to like put it in a different room.

August Brice: Yeah, exactly. Okay, so I think we covered the most fascinating thing that you found about the study, right was the control?

Dr. Ofir Turel: To summarize this point again, and better or more directly address your question. The fascinating thing was that self control abilities are intact, which means that a lot of people could actually self control their behavior. And if you think about it, think about kids who started using social media three, four years ago, and people may have thought that they're addicted, most of them, I guess, I speculate here, overcame their addiction.

Dr. Ofir Turel: Because they sort of understood that this is too much and they had enough motivation to self control their behavior. Some cannot I understand that. But most people who may be termed as addicts are not actually addicts. They're excessive users that present addiction like symptoms, but can still self control their behavior or if they have sufficient motivation to do so.

August Brice: That's such great news. Do you want to give us any ideas of motivation?

Dr. Ofir Turel: Parents to create motivation, for example, through other activities, alternative activities like sports, sometimes it's just a discussion about the future. So you need to make sure that the motivation of children is steered toward more positive outcomes, not necessarily just social media and video games.

August Brice: And do you let your kids use all the social media that they want?

Dr. Ofir Turel: Not necessarily no, too young.

August Brice: Okay. Will you? How about it?

Dr. Ofir Turel: I don't think I will. But again, it's not something that is easy to control. I think eventually they have to understand on their own that this is not necessarily good for them and they understand eventually, you know, sometimes they use it excessively and do poorly in exams or do poorly in sports and they adjust their behavior. They can do that in most cases.

August Brice: So with everything you know, what age will you let them have a phone?

Dr. Ofir Turel: I don't have a magic number. I think it depends on the situation. If you know a child takes the bus to school and it's safety issue versus developing an addiction issue. Having a phone by itself is not necessarily bad because you could basically prevent access to many applications or control the usage time of certain applications.

Dr. Ofir Turel: Everything in moderation is okay. But the American Medical Association just issued two, three weeks ago or last month, I guess, recommendations for parents. So basically, I think it's no technology until the age of two, then there is very limited, they call it screen time.

Dr. Ofir Turel: So including all technologies, television, iPads, cell phones, basically they provide very strict limits, recommended limits given not just the addiction aspects of the technology and the emotional aspects but more so like you mentioned the blue, the mission of blue light, messes up sleep and sleep that regulates the ap... regulates appetite and regulates sedentary time and activity and all these things that influence obesity and physical health beyond just the mental health that we're talking about.

August Brice: Yeah, you know, we actually have the Tech Wellness technology guide that includes Dr. Young's screen time recommendations and building biologists and just a whole public policy scientists and people who create toys for children. All the experts got together and we came up with age recommendations actually, for parents, for all technology, it's just fascinating to see the importance of, you know, all the great minds coming together.

August Brice: And everybody's pretty much on the same page that kids really shouldn't even be exposed to technology in a great way before they're three. There's just so many other things that their mind should be doing as their brains are developing. What is your opinion about that? Because like you said, the APA came in with I think it was no younger than one not two. Dr. Young has always recommended three, no technology until you are three.

Dr. Ofir Turel: I don't know, because I do not work in clinical settings. So I don't see children, one, two or three year olds, and how it affects their brains or its cognitive performance. We all have a sense. I mean, we could throw numbers and say one, two, three. It really doesn't matter the exact number, I think at this point.

Dr. Ofir Turel: I think families could have a sense of what's right and wrong for them. Or maybe we should talk about a range of numbers. But certainly we know that it's regardless of the age, we know that it's unhealthy to give children, young children below the age of three, screen time. And if it's zero or one hour, it's still okay. But if certainly it's like four, five hours a day, it's not okay. So it doesn't matter-

August Brice: Yeah, it's crazy.

Dr. Ofir Turel: Yeah. So I'm saying we have an agreement, I think, across the board, that this is an unhealthy activity, for very young children. What exactly is the cutoff? It really depends, because it's not just, if you think about it, you know, general recommendation is not very useful, especially when you have different genetic variation. Some people are more sensitive to rewards than others. Some people have higher risk for developing quite a metabolic syndrome than others. So I guess depending on your risk profile, people could adjust their screen time cut offs or when they start giving the children more screen time. But again, it's not my area of expertise, so I cannot comment on exactly what's the cut.

August Brice: Okay, so Dr. Turel, what are you working on now? Any research that we can look forward to?

Dr. Ofir Turel: I work on many aspects of social media use, and video gaming as well. I tried to see some positive aspects of video gaming, like I mentioned before, preventing substance use or keeping children busy with a little bit of video gaming, not too much is actually healthy. In terms of social media try to see the other side of social media use. So one recent trend, I guess, in the last couple of years is that people try to quit social media. So I guess it's more relevant for adults, but also, I guess, to some extent, children.

Dr. Ofir Turel: So I'm trying to see what happens when you terminate social media use, are you going to feel more stressed or less stressed? Is the well-being going to be improved or not? Are your perceptions going to change? You're going to feel bad or feel positive about it. Things of this nature. Because eventually people will, I mean, at least some people try to terminate or quit social media use. And it's important that we understand the implications of doing so, what happens after?

August Brice: That's so good? Yeah. Because all the sudden you're disconnected completely.

Dr. Ofir Turel: Yeah. I mean, people are not fully disconnected because they still have email and other ways to connect with friends. But instead of being connected to 5000 friends, you don't know you're connected to the 30 friends, you know, and that's it.

August Brice: You know what I do? And I've always done this, first of all, my niece gave me my first Facebook account, it was about gosh, it's just been eight years since I've had a Facebook account, and she signed me up and got me going and, and I realized immediately it was a huge time suck. So I give myself one hour every other week, and I just get on, and I look at and see what everybody's doing.

August Brice: I post something occasionally. And it's kind of fun that way. It's really sort of like, how do I feel when I do it? I feel like, it's like reading the news. Really. It's like having a bit of a connection, knowing what's happening, but it's not my life. You know, there's people who just put every single thing that they do out there. For me, it's always worked.

Dr. Ofir Turel: Yeah, no. That's a very healthy way to use it. And I wish all people were like that, but you know that this is not the reality. In one of our studies, with university students we found that 40% reported on using social media while driving at least once in the last week, and 5% reported doing it every time they had driven in the last week.

Dr. Ofir Turel: When you think about it, these are very scary numbers because the use of social media it's not like texting even because texting is like very simple. You read like, you know 100 characters and that's it. Social media is scrolling, looking at pictures, it takes much more processing from your brain and distracts you much more from driving.

August Brice: Wow!

Dr. Ofir Turel: There are many people who are not like you and do not use it once a week for an hour or once every other week.

August Brice: Hey, that's just Facebook, I use Instagram, when you have to have something important, like my site is very important and what we're talking about spreading awareness that we need to have balance with technology. I actually need to post on Instagram once a day. That's a chunk of 15 minutes that I have to take out of my life to make that post.

Dr. Ofir Turel: The question is how much time you spend looking for likes and checking again and again, how many people viewed the post and liked them. So this is where things become unhealthy what you're describing is normal work behavior. So using social media for conducting work is okay. Getting sucked into checking social media again and again 200 times a day is unhealthy.

August Brice: Right. I think to your point about the phone use in the car at all. That's something that's definitely going to have to be discussed and we'll probably get some direction from the Department of Transportation eventually, that we probably can't even use a phone while driving.

Dr. Ofir Turel: Maybe, or maybe it's going to be so integrated in the cars. So, we're not going to even touch it. You could just speak to it, and that's fine.

August Brice: Yeah. That's fine. I'm sure. Yeah. That's has to happen.

Dr. Ofir Turel: The future and driving and phones is a different topic.

August Brice: Right, a different topic. Thank you so much. And I'm so excited for the next research project. And you really haven't told us what it is. Is there something that you're working on right now that we can look forward to?

Dr. Ofir Turel: We looking at other aspects of social media like believing fake news or not? There are many like you mentioned, there is like, self image type of line of work that we are exploring. So there are many bad things that stem out of excessive use of social media. There are some positive things and we try to keep it balanced. We look both at positive and negative aspects of technology use.

August Brice: Wait, you said something that I wasn't expecting, the fake news. You're studying how people react to fake news or whether they believe it or how they can discern if the news is fake or not.

Dr. Ofir Turel: So, this is in very preliminary stages. We try to study the brain mechanisms that underlie believing fake news and acting upon fake news.

August Brice: What do you know so far?

Dr. Ofir Turel: Not much, it's in preliminary stages.

August Brice: Because especially in the world of electromagnetic radiation there, there's a lot of fear, and there's a lot of myth and I see people gravitating toward, you know what they hope and expect to be actual mitigation for the issue. But it really doesn't work. People are spreading fake news all over the place about EMF. And it's so interesting to watch people gravitate toward it.

August Brice: And I think, of course they are because it seems like it's something that is going to hurt them and they need to do something about it right away. So of course you would look for the thing that's going to work. And maybe that's the way it is with all the fake news. It's just so fear based and often fallacious, that you have to read it.

Dr. Ofir Turel: People believe what they want to believe so they, in many cases, they have a gut feeling up front that you know, something is fake or something or they know it's fake, but they want to believe it, so they keep on believing it anyhow. But again, this is not my findings.

Dr. Ofir Turel: This is just general findings about fake news. We're trying to look more specifically about the learning mechanisms in the brain and if we could train the brain to detect fake news. It's a more complicated problem, but I guess it's a topic for a different discussion.

August Brice: That's huge. I can't wait. You have to call me right away when you've released it.

Dr. Ofir Turel: When it's ready.

August Brice: Okay, well, thank you so much Dr. Turel. It's just been fascinating and fun and good luck to you. Best wishes.

Dr. Ofir Turel: Thank you so much and thank you for having me over.

]]> 2018-10-26T17:27:00-07:00 2020-10-23T18:18:03-07:00 Thriving with Technology Podcast - Natalie Hampton How Sit With Us Stops Bullying August Brice

Available here too:


Fighting Bully's With LOVE

In this episode, August sits down with Natalie Hampton, award winning App Creator and world.   Natalie has been recognized as one People Magazine's 25 Women Changing The World, United Nations Outstanding Youth Delegate for her powerful work to prevent bullying.  She's been featured on NPR, Apple's "100 Apps We Love," Psychology Today, and CBS News.

Bullying Stops Here

You'll be riveted listening to this amazing young woman talk about her horrible bullying experience in middle school and you'll love hearing how she rose above it.

Natalie struck back and has turned bullying on it's head. She's created an opportunity for school kids to take bullying into their own hands and prevent it by giving would-be victims of bullies--a place to go.

August talks to Natalie about the inspiring story behind Sit With US and her plans for its future. You'll also hear about the new Tech Wellness Collection at, benefiting Sit With Us. It's a show you don't want to miss.

How to Stop Bullying

Want to Stop the Bully's Now?

If you're a parent or a teacher longing to stop bullying or just a savvy smart kid whose ready to introduce the Sit With Us experience to your school, you can download this Appy Award winning app and find materials to print (as the analog version)of Sit With Us here

And Another BIG idea to Impact Bullying Behaviors

If you're here for more ideas on how to prevent bullying, you'll want to hear from this Anti-bullying expert: Lori Woodley, the founder of an incredible hands-on program that shows kids how to be bold, compassionate leaders, ALL IT TAKES thinks stopping bullying is KEY to growing up healthy. Here's her advice:

"Tackling the bully problem is key to our youth growing into emotionally healthy adults. In order to even touch the problem, our youth and adults around them must be willing to NOTICE that bullying is happening in the first place.

One of the main problems in intervention is the lack of purposeful awareness that someone is being targeted and harmed, emotionally or physically.

Too many youth and adults are blind, or numb, to what is happening around them and the impact bullying is having.

To begin to STOP letting Bully's happen It is critical that we begin to NOTICE what is being said and done around us and then check in on how we feel about it.

  • Are we okay with it?
  • Do we feel proud of what we are Noticing?
  • Does what we NOTICE match our values?
  • Do we feel pain for another and justify ignoring it for ‘_____’ reason?


When we NOTICE that we do not feel good about what we are witnessing, we are intrinsically empowered to purposely CHOOSE how we want to feel and the environment we want to be a part of. 

From here we can consider options on how to get to those feelings and that environment. Doing nothing to positively impact hurtful situations can have long lasting traumatic impact to both the bully and the bystander who does nothing.

NOTICING a problem and the feelings/environment around it, and CHOOSING it to be different, is a catalyst to change and a powerful tool for developing empathy.

But nothing actually happens until we ACT

Good intentions, empathy, wishing and hoping does not positively impact bullying situations at all. Impact only happens when we ACT. Sometimes we need to seek support from an adult or other authority, other times we can invite a bullied person into our circle or to our lunch table. The way Sit With Us App does that is brilliant.

There are other ways to prevent, reduce and eliminate harmful bullying behavior. All of them however, start by noticing it is happening, choosing how we want to influence it, and then powerfully stepping into action to make the difference we decide."

Lori Woodley

Public speaker, trainer and author in communication, personal power and social impact, Lori is Founder and Executive Director for All It Takes, a non-profit organization that teaches bold and compassionate leadership through her Notice Choose Act® curriculum.  

Thank you Lori! Now, Here's the Full Transcript of our visit Anti-Bullying activist, Natalie Hampton:

Announcer: Welcome to thriving with technology, the tech wellness podcast. It's conversation and information designed to bring balance to your relationship with technology. Your host is August Brice. Today, August talks with Natalie Hampton, the teenager from southern California who invented the anti-bullying app, Sit With Us. You'll hear her story of how Natalie's experience with bullying in middle school led her to create Sit With Us, which now has over 120,000 users all around the world. And, you'll hear about a special campaign with to raise awareness and funds for the app. And now here's August.

August Brice: Hello everyone. Today we're chatting with Natalie Hampton. She's an amazing, outstanding human. She's currently 19, a freshman at Stanford and okay, that's really a big deal, but in high school, she created Sit With Us. It's a really world changing anti bullying app. Since then, Natalie Hampton has been recognized as Radio Disney's Hero for Change, Outstanding Youth Delegate for the United Nations, one of People Magazine's 25 women changing the world, USA delegate to the Anne Frank International Youth Network Summer School, Copper Black Award for creative achievement from the Mensa foundation, Newsweek's nominee for Woman of the Future. Wow, Natalie, that makes you downright amazing.

Natalie Hampton: Thank you so much.

August Brice: We want to hear all about what you're working on now, but first, we want to hear about Sit With Us. I know it was born in response to a very personal, painful journey, but I'd really like to hear this story.

Natalie Hampton: Yes. So when I was in seventh grade, I went through a pretty horrible bullying experience, where I was physically attacked four separate times. I was sent death threats. I was cyber-bullied, shoved into lockers, pretty much everything. And on top of that I ate lunch alone every day, and that experience was so isolating and embarrassing. I was luckily able to change schools and found a much more inclusive place, but it really showed me that it makes such a difference when you're in a school community where being kind is the norm. And so, that's what made me want to give back and do something to help the kids that aren't as lucky as I am, and don't get to escape their situations.

August Brice: Oh Wow. I really want to talk about a little bit of the detail of that next level bullying because it seems so extraordinary. I'm glad it has a good ending, but do you feel comfortable at all talking about some of the detail of ... I mean, really the physical bullying, the cyber-bullying, all of it?

Natalie Hampton: Yeah, definitely. I'm very open about everything, so feel free to ask me any question that you have.

August Brice: Okay. So I really want to know how does a bully get away with actually physically assaulting someone at a school?

Natalie Hampton: That's something that I'm still trying to figure out. It wasn't anything that I could really discern at first, because some of the bullies I knew, some of them I didn't know. One of the attacks was, the only friend group I found, pretty much ended up turning on me, and they orchestrated this attack where they beat me up and stole my computer. All these people who I thought were my friends, mugged me in the hallway in front of pretty much the entire school, and no one did anything. In response, the administration did nothing as well. Even though these things were happening in a very public way on their campus, they refused to take any action.

August Brice: Wow. Do you think this is kind of bullying is happening a lot out there? I mean, it's incredible what you're saying.

Natalie Hampton: I definitely think it's happening out there. What was happening, is there was this head of school who was really looking forward to the end of her career and retirement, and so she was hoping that there would be no scandals before she left. All of these horrible things were happening, at the same time there was a teacher who was raping students.

August Brice: Oh my gosh.

Natalie Hampton: There were multiple other students being attacked as well, but all of it was being shoved under the rug and not addressed, because they thought the addressing the issue head on would ruin the reputation of the institution.

August Brice: Natalie, oh my gosh. I'm so sorry. Kids like you were suffering. You were physically hurt, mentally hurt, because some coward wanted to protect their political position. I can't believe it. It's unbelievable. Oh, you know, honestly, this is like one of the things the internet is really good for, because this is going to shine a light on things that really need to be brought to everyone's attention. This kind of crap. I'm really, really sorry about the bullying you went through, and as a mom I would be so angry and devastated. I just have to know what did your mom do? How did she feel about this?

Natalie Hampton: It's pretty interesting because this was my mom's dream for me. It's her Alma Mater. She went there for high school, and it's this all girls school, so as soon as she found out that I was a girl, I was destined to go there. I grew up wearing the sweatshirts, and so it was this long dream that she envisioned for me. Once I was finally there, it was like a dream come true. But, once things started to not work out in the way that I had hoped, she was actually the first person to be my advocate, and even though it was this dream for her, she was the first one suggesting that we apply to other schools and she was going in and demanding action from the administrators, and so she has been my biggest supporter through all of this.

August Brice: Wow. Your mom. That's of course, excellent news. You're an amazing person and obviously she did an amazing job. You know what they say? It's not the problems that you face in life. It's actually, and this is a great example, how you react to them. You were put in this horrible situation for what? For a year? Then what happened?

Natalie Hampton: I spent two years at the school. I thought that maybe my first year was just bad luck, and so I decided to give it another try. In eighth grade is actually when the attacks got a lot more physical. What happened to me was actually assault with a deadly weapon, because a girl in my science class, tried to hurt me with a pair of scissors. And after that point, we knew that there was no way that it could get better, and so that's when we began to look at other schools.

August Brice: Oh my gosh. Natalie, you're an incredible, incredible person. I am heartbroken, but I'm also amazed, and because I know the rest of the story, you turned it around. So what was the next step in getting out of this situation?

Natalie Hampton: I applied out, and I got into my first choice school, and from my first day there it was like night and day. There were people to sit with that lunch, and there were people helping me figure out my schedule, and everyone seemed so open and welcome. I felt like I was finally seen, and it was a really crazy feeling to get adjusted to. I spent a lot of time just recovering, because I was diagnosed with pretty severe PTSD.

August Brice: Of course.

Natalie Hampton: So even in my new school, I was having panic attacks and I was still dealing with the effects of that. It took a long time to heal. But once I had spent two years in my new school, that's when I started to think of ways to give back, because it was something that was so important to me.

August Brice: Well, that is, first of all, humankind, the way it's supposed to be, right? Kids welcoming you and making you feel included. That's how it's always supposed to be for everybody. That's what I love about the app. It's so incredible because it's actually bullying prevention. How did you think about this? Tell me that the thought process of actually conceiving the app.

Natalie Hampton: I was thinking on my experience, and I was thinking about, what if I didn't have to go through all of this in the first place. It would have been so nice to have at least one person to talk to you through all of that, because I truly felt so alone. I really felt like if I had had one person, that would have changed everything and. That experience of sitting alone at lunch really stuck with me and that feeling was something that I never forgot. I began to formulate ways to help pair kids who need that friend with friends in their school. Because, I know that in every school community, there's someone who's willing to make a difference. And so, the problem was just trying to figure out how to pair them with people who actually need help.

August Brice: Okay. So the memory of that pain, of being excluded and being so lonely, it caused you to create something to help the other kids experience what you experienced. Natalie. Thank God your heart wasn't hardened in spite of all of it, you had the ability to look outside, and not inside yourself. You had the wherewithal to think about helping others. So, you were the right person for this to happen to. I mean it's so sick and unfortunate, but honestly not only did you come up with the solution, you were technically savvy enough to do some of the coding for Sit With Us yourself. I mean this is what your mom told me.

Natalie Hampton: I did get help. I worked side by side with a professional coder, but at the same time, I was taking coding lessons and doing graphic design. And so, I definitely did get help, but I did play a main role in the development of the app.

August Brice: Okay. So tell us how it works. How does it actually form the connection?

Natalie Hampton: So, it's a lunch planning app, and basically it's like a social network. When you sign up, you sign up with your school, and you create a profile page, and then if you choose to be a Sit With Us ambassador, you take a pledge saying that anyone who tries to join your table is welcome. From there, you say, my name is this, I'm sitting here at this time, you plan a lunch, and that goes out to everyone in your school. So if you're a kid who's bullied or lonely or just needs a table to sit at, you open the app, and you're greeted with a full list of the tables you can join without any fear of rejection.

August Brice: Oh, I just want ...

Natalie Hampton: ... you can join without any fear of rejection.

August Brice: I just want to know, how did you feel the first time you saw that app work?

Natalie Hampton: It was so much relief, because we started in February of 2016 and it wasn't workable until September. We went through probably 1000 versions, and I almost thought that it was never going to work. Then suddenly it worked. then we released and it started growing. We were getting about 10000 new users a week, and it just exploded in ways that I never could have imagined.

August Brice: The very first time though that somebody actually used it, do you remember their story? Or do you remember what it was like when you saw somebody else use it and it worked?

Natalie Hampton: Yeah. I almost did it as a therapy project for me. I never thought that it would work. I never thought that it was possible to begin with. Then once we released it I didn't think anyone would use it. But within the first few weeks we got a letter from this girl in Texas who was a new student at a big public school, and her mom printed out an article online and handed it to her.

Natalie Hampton: She started a club, and within the first few weeks she already had a friend group. She was president of the Sit With Us club, so she had a leadership position in her community, and she felt so at home in this new school that was so scary to her. The fact that I was able to help one person within the first month of the app being out was incredible for me.

August Brice: I'm sure you hear it over and over again, right?

Natalie Hampton: Yeah. It's, I thought that there would be some sort of user profile of the types of people who are becoming ambassadors. But we've spanned across everything, from jocks to theater kids, freshmen to seniors. It seems like everyday we're hearing from new people that want to get it started in their schools.

August Brice: Yeah, well you remember, I think I told you about how I heard about it. I was at this teen talk in Laguna Beach. This really extraordinary woman named Lela Rakhshani told me that because of something really tragic, there was a young man who took his life at her school, but he also happened to be a bit proponent of the app. As a tribute to him, after he died the entire school downloaded it and began to use is. I want to ... Hold on, I want to pull up her words because they're really, I think it sums it up so nicely.

August Brice: She said that, "Since we started this, I have not once seen a lonely kid on campus. Not one outcast student sitting alone. The position my school is in now is really one of the most heartwarming things I could possibly encounter". All because of you, Natalie.

Natalie Hampton: That is insane for me to hear. It's so surreal.

August Brice: Isn't it? It's just, and I know they're continuing using the app this year. I've heard, I think your mom told me this, that you call them Up-Standers? Kids who are willing to make an inclusive choice?

Natalie Hampton: Yeah. I think it's sort of a play on words on bystander. I feel almost as if bystanders are almost as bad as the bully, because they're watching people get hurt and not saying anything. An Up-Stander is someone who notices injustice in their community and takes a stand, and does something about it. I'm trying to encourage the development of Up-Standers in every school through that.

August Brice: Well how do most schools introduce Sit With Us to their communities? Do they just find Up-Standers? Or is it their parents or teachers?

Natalie Hampton: I really wanted this to be something that is created by the kids for the kids, and so I want to give all of the leadership tools to the kids themselves. Usually it's one kid in a school that says, "I'm interested in starting this", and we send them a welcome packet. We give them all the information to get it started. Then we let them take it and run.

Natalie Hampton: What most kids do is, they start a club. They become a leader in their community almost immediately, and they're able to address the needs of their community very personally. Because I don't know what each specific school needs. But if it's the students of that community coming together and creating this themselves, then they're being able to help their community very first hand.

August Brice: Yay. It's about time. Why do bullies always have to run the school? I mean, think about it. Even years and decades and decades ago when I was in high school, it's the same thing. The power in the school tends to go to the people who manipulate. I mean, the bullies and the mean girls.

Natalie Hampton: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

August Brice: Sit With Us takes that power away from them and gives it to the people who really should have had it all along. The people who are of good character. Who are for inclusion and friendship and equality. This is great.

Natalie Hampton: Mm-hmm (affirmative). It's such a low time commitment too. Kids are able to make a positive impact in their community within two seconds of just using an app. Once you get that going daily, it influences the community to be more inclusive as a whole.

August Brice: It's wonderful, it really is. How many people are using it now?

Natalie Hampton: We have over 100,000 users, and we're in eight different countries. The numbers are hard to approximate because a lot of schools don't allow phones, so we have an analog version with a bulletin board that we help schools set up. We have a ton of kids on that program as well.

August Brice: Oh, I love it. Where is it being used the most? Is it elementary school? The analog version? In junior high? Or do you have the most people using the app? Do you have any tracking on it?

Natalie Hampton: We have seen all types of places. We have elementary schools, all the way up through middle, high school, college campuses. Even graduate schools, and the workplace as well. We've been hearing from nurses at hospitals that are using it to coordinate shifts, and places of worship, and conferences that are adapting it as well. It's kind of become applicable for every situation.

August Brice: It's so great. I can see that, yes. I would, at a church or something, I think that's a great idea. You know, there's this wave of enlightenment concerning kids and adults, all of us being much more mindful and balanced when it comes to using our technology.

Natalie Hampton: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

August Brice: I know that our phones are a tool of distraction and disconnection typically. But you've turned it around. But I also know in talking to your mom, Caroline Hampton, who is also your partner in disseminating this app, she mentioned that you have some thoughts of your own on the subject of kids, phones, talking to each other, putting them away at a certain time. Do you want to share some of your thoughts about that?

Natalie Hampton: Yeah. I've been at the brunt of the negative end of technology use. I've been sent death threats and I have seen what kids can do to destroy each other over social media. What I wanted to do is to create a social network that can only be used for good. I hope that it trains kids to be using social media in a positive way, and in a way to help others. In the same way, it's using social media to create a physical connection. You're going through your phone to find a physical lunch place. To make friends face to face. It's kind of bridging the barriers between face to face and technology. I hope that encourages kids to put the phone down and have a real conversation with someone.

August Brice: Make a phone stack, or at least turn it over. I love it. It's just, and you know, following up on that whole idea of tech for good and good tech, we talk a lot about privacy and security at Tech Wellness. Can you tell me about your privacy and security options when you're signing up for the app? How does it work exactly?

Natalie Hampton: Definitely. It is an app that's marketed towards kids, so we want to make sure that it's very private and very secure. Once you sign in with your school name and you're registered with your school, it creates a micro community within your school. You're not going to be seeing random people. Non students can't join in and start posting or friending kids from a school. Basically it just creates a micro community for the users in that school.

August Brice: That's good. Have you gone to any of the school districts? Or does someone on behalf of Sit With Us go to the school district and try to ... I know it's great for students to bring it into the system. But are there any school systems that sort of have top down the idea of using the app?

Natalie Hampton: Yeah. There is a user in Maryland who started it at his school, and it was working so well that he brought it to his school district. Now he's helping run it in over 200 schools. That was something that he took the initiative to do, and just happily reported it to us one day. Now he's running it in a ton of schools in Maryland. I am just happy to give him the leadership abilities to do that.

August Brice: That's awesome. I will put a link to him on the site too, if other people are interested in working through him.

Announcer: You're listening to Thriving With Technology, the Tech Wellness podcast. August continues her conversation with Natalie in just a second. You'll hear about a special Tech Wellness collection going on now at that benefits Sit With Us. But first, information about a great new way to stay safe from harmful radiation and protect your privacy all at the same time.

Announcer: Have you ever heard of a Faraday cage? Well it was first invented back in the mid 1800s to block electromagnetic sources. Today, a Faraday case does exactly the same thing for your smartphone. You just drop your phone into it, and it blocks potentially damaging RF radiation, and it makes sure that no one can hack your phone while it's in the bag all at the same time. You are 100 percent cyber secure. Our Tech Wellness cyber expert, Brian Newmeister, always puts smartphones that he's going to analyze into a Faraday case just to transport them. Also, members of the intelligence agencies are now required to use Faraday cases when they're in public spaces where their digital security is important. Right now at you can pre-order a great new August brand Faraday case. They come in pink ...

Privacy Phone Cases Faraday

Announcer: A great new August brand Faraday Case. They come in pink, leopard, and black, and if you preorder right now, you'll have them in time for holiday gifting for all the people you love. Just visit search the keyword Faraday. That's F-A-R-A-D-A-Y. Now, back to August and Natalie.

August Brice: Can you walk us through the process of signing up? Where would someone go? How would they do it?

Natalie Hampton: We are in every type of app store, Google Play Store. Whatever type of phone you have, it's in that app store. If you search Sit With Us and download it, as soon as you sign up it walks you through everything. You can sign up with your e-mail or a phone number, and none of that data we collect, again to be very secure. You set up your profile page, and from there you can search other users in your school.

August Brice: That sounds great. I know you're asked this all the time, but I want to know too. What have you learned about bullying and how to prevent it? What have you learned about the mentality of a bully?

Natalie Hampton: I've seen both sides. Creating this app has shown me what a universal problem it is because I've heard stories of bullying from so many different people from so many different countries. At the same time, it's shown me how many people out there want to help. I've heard so many heartwarming stories where someone went through bullying and was able to turn it around, and through Sit With Us now made a group of friends or something like that. From these students who are standing up in their communities and saying that we need to put an end to bullying. While it is such a universal problem, there is such universal solution with all the people that are trying to do good.

August Brice: That's true. It is. It's great. I just wonder how much parents, teachers, administrators play in promoting a non-bullying, inclusive environment.

Natalie Hampton: I think they have to be there to listen and support the needs of the kids, because I wasn't being listened to when all of my bullying took place and I was being silenced and shut out. That made me feel so voiceless, but because I had my parents listening and supporting me throughout all of it, that's what helped me get through it all. If you're a parent or an administrator, be there for your kids in a non-judgemental way. Make sure they know that they can come to you and that there won't be repercussions for speaking out against something and that they won't be blamed.

August Brice: That's good.

Natalie Hampton: As well as setting up something like this. Just give them the tools that they need and ask them their story and listen. The most important thing is to raise the voices of the kids around you instead of speak for them. Allow them to find their own voices and then listen and amplify.

August Brice: That's good, because I know there's probably a lot of parents out there who are watching their child get bullied and need a strategy for dealing with it because, unlike you who were so strong and are so strong, there are some kids that just don't even know how to find a voice, just want to run the other way. I think parents are looking for strategies for, "How do I protect my child?" Any ideas?

Natalie Hampton: As long as they know that you have their back, I mean that is really what saved me from everything is knowing that no matter what happened at school ... I had no one in my corner at school. None of my administrators, none of my teachers would advocate for me, but at home I had both of my parents and I knew that very clearly that I had their support and that they had my back, and so that's what really saved me through everything. At the same time, I found an outlet. I poured myself into writing, into painting, into drawing, and I felt like having a creative outlet to express negative emotions helped me get it out on the page and so it wasn't in my head anymore. That's another strategy that I can recommend to parents for watching their kid go through that is find an outlet whether it's karate or self-defense or painting or whatever it is that your kid loves.

August Brice: That's great advice. Then I wonder if there's advice for the kids who are friends of bullies but wish they would stop?

Natalie Hampton: I just think that one person speaking up makes all the difference. I know it can be super scary to go up to someone and go against what they're saying, and you fear that you'll lose your friends or lose a friend group over that, but the most important thing is if you see it to not be a bystander, because then you're just continuing that cycle of abuse. You can get a trusted adult. You can get other friends to go with you, but make sure you stop that action before it's too late.

August Brice: Natalie, you know what? Because you have stood up, you're setting such an incredible example that I think that it's ... It is. It's just the beginning of a huge sea change that we're looking at this differently. You're right. There's no reason for it to keep going. I'd like, just before we go, if you could share maybe a couple of success stories that have made you the happiest or surprised you?

Natalie Hampton: Yeah. My favorite one is definitely that girl from Texas, because it's the first one we got. We've talked to her over the phone. I've Skyped with her, and she is just thriving in this community that was so foreign to her at the beginning just because of a flyer that her mom printed out for her. We have amazing ambassadors like the kid in Maryland who's bringing it to over 200 schools. We keep getting stories like that every day where kids are seeing an ad online or they're hearing about it from someone else, and then they're taking the initiative and starting it at their schools. We've gotten tons of pictures too from all these lunch tables. It's just such an amazing thing to see.

August Brice: I love the Sit With Us community. I'm so thrilled for you. What's next?

Natalie Hampton: I just want to bring the app as far as I can. Right now, we're partnering with the clothing brand Hollister, and we are creating a line of clothes that encourage inclusivity during lunch. Then the proceeds go back to us, and with that we are going to be coding the app in new languages. We're going to be creating updates, and we're going to be expanding as far as we can.

August Brice: That's great, because you need as much support as you possibly can, because the app is free everyone. It's a free download. The analog version package, is that also free to schools?

Natalie Hampton: Yeah. Definitely. It's hard because every time iOS updates or the Google Play store updates, we have to factor in those coding costs to keep it up to date. We are a non-profit, and so all of this is a passion project. Funds like what we're getting from Hollister are what keep us alive and keep us going.

August Brice: We are passionate about your passion project. We love everything about this. The tech and the non-tech program. Of course, we want to support you too. You can also, everyone listening, you can also not just shop at Hollister. You can support by donating directly to Sit With Us. You can also shop at Sevenly. Sevenly makes it easy and fun, and you can share really positive anti-bullying message. They have beautiful, hand-stamped cuffs. There's cute tees and tanks. One of my favorites is the one that says, "Real Life Over Likes." There's also a cute peace one. Every purchase also benefits the great work of Sit With Us.

Natalie Hampton: I love the line. When I saw it on the website, my mouth dropped open because it looks so professional and so nice.

August Brice: Yeah, it is, and the fabrication is beautiful. I'm thrilled. I'm so happy that you're the first Tech Wellness Sevenly partner. It's great.

Natalie Hampton: I'm so excited.

August Brice: We are so excited too. Can't wait for this just to be international and everybody everywhere just it's a standard school practice. You get to high school, or is it junior high that the app would be downloaded? Is technology allowed in junior highs?

Natalie Hampton: It depends on the school. For my high school, it was not allowed in middle school but allowed in high school, and it really depends on the school. We just have both available. Whatever a school needs, we can provide them with that.

August Brice: Is there any dream that you haven't told us about with Sit With Us yet that you want to share?

Natalie Hampton: My biggest goal is that any kid anywhere in the world could open their phone and have access to this tool. What we're going to keep doing is opening it in more countries and coding it into new languages and just to make it as accessible as possible, because, as I said before, it is a universal problem, and there is a universal solution. I just want to get this tool out to as many kids as possible.

August Brice: Natalie Hampton elevating kindness, killing bullying. I love it. One more time, can we have your URL so that people can go right there and download it?

Natalie Hampton: Yeah. It is

August Brice: We'll be there. Love it. You know what? I think we're going to download it for the office. Come sit with me.

Natalie Hampton: That's amazing.

August Brice: And bring a salad. Thank you so much Natalie, and best wishes at Stanford. I just can't wait to watch your career.

Natalie Hampton: Thank you so much.

August Brice: This is incredible, but I just imagine you [inaudible 00:29:17] bigger things ahead. Congratulations.

Natalie Hampton: Thank you.

August Brice: Thanks again Natalie. Thank you so much. You've been listening to the Thriving with Technology Tech Wellness podcast. If you found this show helpful, please like and follow us on iTunes. It would mean so much to everyone who works so hard on these podcasts. Also, visit us any time at Until next time, be well.

]]> 2018-10-19T11:19:00-07:00 2020-10-23T19:53:39-07:00 Techwellness Podcast Episode 1 August Brice

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Dr. George Carlo Shares The New Truth About Cell Phone Radiation 

This week, August talks with Dr. George Carlo, who is a Tech Wellness Expert and more importantly, one of the world’s foremost authorities on the potential dangers posed by radiation from our cell phones.  Dr Carlo led the largest scientific study on the issue starting back in the 1990’s.  The $28 million dollar study, funded by the Cell Industry, began to turn up some troubling results, which George quickly reported.  The study was quickly cancelled and the results immediately discredited. Have things changed?  Yes they have.  And no they haven’t.  Listen to learn the latest and what you should be doing right now to protect your family. Join the movement today at


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Here's the full transcript of the podcast:

Announcer: This is the Tech Wellness Podcast from, news, information, and analysis designed to bring understanding, awareness, and balance to our relationship with technology. Your hosts today, Dr. George Carlo and August Brice.

August Brice: Welcome to the podcast. We're so glad you're here. Today we're going to talk about wireless energy, the information-carrying radio waves to make sure all of our super important Instagram post can be seen by the world. Should you be worried about this invisible energy? It's everywhere. Is there anything you can do? Well, yes, there is, and we're going to give you some ideas.

August Brice: But, first, just a little bit about us. I'm August Brice. I'm a trained journalist and a news producer, co-founded and advertising agency, and I've been studying this topic for about 20 years. Some of you might be saying, "That's a weird thing for her to study. Why?" Well, I'll take you back.

August Brice: Remember when cell phones first came out? They were like the size of a toaster, and about that hot, too. Now for you kids, I want you to Google "brick phones". You're going to totally crack up. Anyway, we got one of these things, and right away it made me dizzy and I got huge headaches and then my fingers would tangle. I would ask people around me, "Oh, my gosh. Can't you guys feel this?" No, they couldn't.

August Brice: Well, now I understand why. I'm actually special, and there's a name for what I have: electromagnetic hypersensitivity or EHS. I can feel EMS, specifically the radio frequency radiation, that powers all of our wireless. Come to find out, about 5% of the population has this now, and most of them don't even know it.

August Brice: I started to try and figure out why I was feeling this feeling that no one else was, and I really wanted to make it stop. That search led me to Dr. George Carlo because he had written this book. I mean the book, Cell Phones: The Invisible Hazards of the Wireless Age. George have led the cell phone industry's first study of EMS, specifically wireless energy, which really didn't go well for them, and George wrote this amazing book.

August Brice: Dr. Carlo is actually a world-recognized scientist. He's an author and attorney. Over the last 35 years, he has published more than 250 science and public policy papers. He's got several patents, including one with me. He teaches at the university level and, oh, he's been on Dr. Oz and Oprah, just about every news program you can think of, from The Today Show, the Good Morning America, CNN, and Fox News. This man is amazing. You really should go to and read more about George. While you do that, let's welcome him to the podcast.

Dr. George Carlo: Hello, August. Good to talk to you again.

August Brice: It's always so good to talk to you, George. This whole area of EMS is really mainstreaming right now, wireless energy, wifi RF. More and more people are talking about it. They're really reaching out to me. They've got lots of really good questions about their health, their safety, their kids. George, what are the most important things to know now?

Dr. George Carlo: Well, the first thing is that there's a lot of information out there, tremendous amounts of information. We started work on this back in the early 1990s. There was work going on in the military and in the private sector all the way back into the late 1970s. There is an enormous amount of information in terms of what we know about how this technology has evolved, about how this technology interacts with life, including human beings. The science is so vast that it's almost impossible for those who are not living it every day to pick up on the nuances.

Dr. George Carlo: I think the first thing that's important is that in studying this for a long time, and there is no one new study that's going to make a big difference in terms of what we know. Probably by the late '90s, we knew most of what we needed to know in terms of there being red flags, in terms of potential human health effects, that there needed to be information that could be put out into the medical community so that doctors knew how to address conditions like electro-hypersensitivity, which you detailed in the opening. Also, we know enough now that we should be focused on precautions. How do we fix this? How do we protect ourselves? How do we protect our families?

Dr. George Carlo: Like any technology, there's always a race, if you will, between the impact of the technology on human systems and the ability of human systems to compensate for the insult of the new technology. Every time there's something new, our bodies don't like it right off the bat. We have to give our bodies time to be able to sort out and compensate for any adverse effects that might be involved. This goes part of the way the human being is constructed.

Dr. George Carlo: Now when you have a gradual introduction of the technology ... Go back to electricity, for example. The introduction was gradual, and most people were able to compensate or adapt because the introduction of the electricity was over a period of decades, 30, 40, 50 years before the electric lights, for example, were used in most homes.

Dr. George Carlo: The difference with wireless technology is that when the cell phone came into public use in the late 1980s, it was a very rare type of thing. People who had cell phones were very wealthy usually and it wasn't a general consumer product. But by the middle '90s, it became something that was inexpensive enough for most people to have. We went from maybe 15 million people using cell phones in the early 90's to 300 million or 400 million people using cell phones by the early 2000s. Today in the United States, the estimates are something like 300 million cell phones. What's happened is that the technology has been introduced at such a rapid pace that there are many, many people who have not been able to adapt [crosstalk 00:07:02].

August Brice: A little bit in history, and we can talk about cell phones, because I remember we were shooting a commercial. We were out in the middle desert, so we had to have this new brick cell phone. That thing was crazy in my hands. It just felt like fire. I couldn't even hold it up to my ear. I had to hand it to somebody else to use. I couldn't understand why they couldn't feel it. But that technology, can you describe how that technology has completely changed and morphed into the cell phones we have now?

Dr. George Carlo: Okay. Well, back in those days, August, you're looking at the late '80s, early '90s, cell phones were the equivalent of an FM radio. That's really what the technology was. It was a radio that carried a signal, that connected into the landline phone system that we have all across the country. In those days, we had landlines.

Dr. George Carlo: Because it was essentially a radio, in that big brick, it had transmission technology, it had reception technology, it had to be able to have internal settings that could lock into these different FM signals, so that it didn't have dialing knobs on the outside, it had dialing knobs that worked automatically on the inside. All of this little these little electronic tasks that had to be done took a lot of energy, so that you had a huge battery in those. Those brick phones were heating up mainly because of the battery, but also the transmission and reception functions were using a lot of energy to make those happen.

Dr. George Carlo: The other thing, back in those days, we didn't have a lot of base stations, so that the signals had to be carried for miles in order to tie in to a landline system. In order to send a signal miles, you had to have enough power to push it.

Dr. George Carlo: Now think about this, an FM radio station. Let's say just a regular station that transmits music and voice on FM that you'll dial into in your car. Think about how big the antennas used to be for those. They're enormous. Hundreds of feet high. They would put fences around them so that people didn't get close. What had happened in the early '90s, for people that were able to use cell phones, is they had to consolidate all of that technology into something that you could hold.

Dr. George Carlo: Now if you just think about it a little bit, there had to be a whole lot of energy that was coming out of those devices, so that those first cell phones were very different from what we have today, so that I would say ... I mean if you look at it, up until about 1995, we were talking about cell phones that were really FM radios, with all of that electronic capability consolidated into a small unit.

Dr. George Carlo: When you consolidate all of that technology, of course, you're going to generate a lot of heat, you're going to generate a lot of energy. That's what was necessary. If you're listen to an FM radio, the dial goes a little bit too much to the right, you get interference, so that you would be driving along and you'd change the knob a little bit to make sure you got a clear signal so you can listen to ...

Dr. George Carlo: What ends up happening, though, is that the same was going on with cell phones, so that even though these signals, these original phones, these analog phones, the FM type radio phones, they're called analog phones, but because they were operating as an FM radio, you could only have one phone call going on on any frequency at one time or there would be interference.

Dr. George Carlo: Back in those days, there used to be a lot of crosstalk. You'd be talking on the phone, the next thing you're talking to somebody in Germany. Because of that, they had to figure out ways of sending the signals that would allow for multiple phone calls to be able to be carried on the same frequency. In order to do that, they had to digitize the signals.

Dr. George Carlo: The first digitization, moving away from frequency modulation to digital modulation, were the PCS phones that were introduced in 1996, 1997. That's how we moved from the analog phone into the digital phone. The reason for it had to do with the industry being able to carry more phone calls on each frequency band.

August Brice: I think that the reason I want to talk about this is because just the nomenclature alone, let alone the technology aspects of the differences in these phones, I think it's really confusing consumers as to what they should be concerned about. I hear it all the time. We talk about EMF, which, of course, means electromagnetic fields, we talk about EMR, which is electromagnetic radiation, we talk about RF, which is radio frequency, non-ionizing radiation, and then we talk about microwave energy. Just really, in one sentence, explain what technology, what kind of wireless energy is being used right now to operate the smart phones and cell phones we use today.

Dr. George Carlo: The PCS phone was the first generation. We're now operating in most places with a fourth generation. People are talking about 5G, which is the fifth generation. We're looking at the technology of carrying this information, changing almost completely every four or five years. It's a moving target. When you ask a question that sounds like a simple question, what are we using today, it has to be put in the context of how we got from an FM radio phone in the early '90s to the smartphones of today where you can download movies.

Dr. George Carlo: The technology is very, very, very different, so that when you have multiple types of modulation, you have signals that are unpredictable in terms of how the body reacts to them. When you have signals that are unpredictable, your body reacts to them as though they're invaders, so that the body tries to protect itself. This happens all the way down to the cellular level.

Dr. George Carlo: Most of the health problems that people experience have to do with the body going too far in terms of initiating protective biological cascade. What that means is the body senses an invader and then uses everything it has to fight off the invader. When that happens, other normal physiologic functions become compromised because the body doesn't have enough energy to do it all. You end up with a situation where your immune system becomes compromised because your body is using energy to fight off this invading signal. Now you become more vulnerable to the flu, for example.

Dr. George Carlo: The same thing happens if you maybe are predisposed to gastrointestinal problems. What happens then is that your body is using energy to do things that are not related to digestion so that you end up with inefficient digestion. Sometimes this leads to diarrhea, sometimes it leads to constipation, or maybe it just leads to abdominal pain.

Dr. George Carlo: The complexity of how these signals from the environment interact with human physiology is one of the things that makes it so hard sort out from a cause and effect point of view. This is really complicated.

August Brice: It is. I feel somewhat gifted. I remember you were the first person who explained electromagnetic hypersensitivity to me and I said, "It's really cool. I can feel the energy. I know when my phone is on without even looking at it." You said, "Well, maybe that's not such a great thing. That just means that you may be electromagnetic hypersensitive."

August Brice: As I went to doctors and looked more into it, I discovered that actually that was the case. But when I tried to explain this to other people and why I have concern for friends, family, and the population in general, I think of it as just another pollutant that our body needs to deal with, that if we can mitigate that exposure somehow, our body might not have to fight that particular pollutant.

August Brice: I did a video a long time ago where I said, "Here. It's like drinking a glass of beautiful, clean perfect water," that's no exposure at all, "versus this glass of dirty water. I can drink this glass of dirty water and I may or may not have a biological reaction." It depends. My body might compensate and might be great with this dirty water, but my body might not be okay with it. Again, I might have some nausea, I might have some gastric distress of some type because I'm drinking this dirty water.

August Brice: Why drink the dirty water if I don't have to? Why be exposed to the wireless energy if I don't have to be exposed? As you just explained it, some bodies may react and some may not.

Dr. George Carlo: That's absolutely correct. Looking at this as another pollutant is the right way to look at it, it's absolutely accurate, but there is a difference, because with most environmental insults, environmental pollutants, they're transient, meaning that they're there for a while and then the wind blows them away, even things like pollen, where people have allergies to pollen in the spring. You're able to have that be taken away by natural processes.

Dr. George Carlo: The difference is that with an information-carrying radio wave, it's not only the radio wave that comes from your phone that impacts the energy field around your body, but it's also the radio waves that are standing in the environment from other people's phones so that now you have an accumulation of standing waves in the environment that don't go away.

Dr. George Carlo: The difficulty is that while it's reasonable to say I'm not going to drink the dirty water, with the information-carrying radio waves and the dramatic increase in the amount of wireless technology, meaning the number of radio waves that are out there in the environment, you can't really get away from it.

Dr. George Carlo: In the documentary film Generations Zapped, there's a great quote by my friend and colleague Olle Johansson, where he poses in the film, he says, "If I were to ask you how much more radiation am I exposed to today than 10 years ago," he says, "is it twice as much? Is it three times as much?" He says, "No, it's a quintillion times more." That's a one with 18 zeros, and that's the truth.

Dr. George Carlo: The difficulty here is that we're never going to be able to get rid of the exposure completely. We can minimize it, we can do things that maybe change the waves a little bit, protect us a little bit from the waves. There are a number of things that we can do from a physics point of view, and we certainly need to do all of those things, but we also have to make sure that our bodies are in the best position to adapt, because, at the end of the day, it's going to be about adaptation. It's not going to be about eliminating the exposure because that horse is already out of the barn. We're never going to get rid of wireless. It's here for good.

August Brice: That's my combination of my Tech Wellness [inaudible 00:19:22], the things that I do for my body and my life to stay strong with all of this wireless exposure around me. I have the primary precautions. I use an airtube headset and I carry my phone on a case so I don't have to have that near-field exposure where that energy is not right in my hand. I use a stylus whenever I can. I turn my phone on airplane and then I download emails and texts and voicemails. Then I turn my phone on airplane and I answer them and read them. I do these things, but at the same time I take certain vitamins. I make sure that I've reset my circadian rhythms. I treat my body really good to stand up against the wireless onslaught.

Dr. George Carlo: You can do it. I mean you don't find yourself missing out on life because you're taking these precautions, right?

August Brice: Not at all. I think this helps us. Of course not. I feel better and I can also extend it to other stresses. This isn't the only stress in my life, wireless energy, in any of our lives. It just helps me, I think, to have a healthier, better life. I want to talk because people ask me all the time, how close is too close? How much is too much?

August Brice: You were talking about how the technology is changing. But about five years ago, a meter came out that can measure energy between the 10 megahertz and eight gigahertz level. That happens to be the cell phone wireless energy that's right in there, those microwave electromagnetic fields. I can measure the energy. I love the meter that gives me a numeric readout, because I can compare it to the numeric readout coming from other things that are on, like the wifi or somebody else's phone.

August Brice: I understand that the signals vary depending on how close you are to the base station or the tower, depending on the amount of energy your phone has to output at that particular moment. But right now, to me, this is the only physical example of seeing that energy. To me, the less, the better.

August Brice: The scientific community has, I believe, confused this issue so much, because I have a readout on the various levels of RF energy that are considered safe by all these different organizations all over the world. There's actually 12 to 15 different safety levels, and they vary widely. When people ask me what's the safe distance, what's a state level, my answer is, well, the further away, the better and the lower the number, the better. Do you have a particular way you would answer that question?

Dr. George Carlo: What makes it difficult is that you can measure what comes from the device, and that's one side of the coin. That's the physics part of it, so that think of it this way, that you have the device, whether it's a cell phone or any other device, and your meter is able to measure what's coming from there, and that's good.

Dr. George Carlo: The standards that exist now all across the world are based only on that one dimension, what comes from the device. From a practical point of view, that no matter where your device is, between the device and your body, there's space and there are things that go on in that space, like signals that come from other people's devices, like energy that comes from your own body, like energy that comes from other things in the environment. The atmospherics play a role, temperature, pressure, the amount of moisture that's in the air.

Dr. George Carlo: All of those things have an impact on how what comes out of the device travels to your body. Then it has an impact on how your body reacts to it, so that the other side is the biological response. That biological response is unique to every individual. That's what makes it difficult.

Dr. George Carlo: Now the things that you're doing, August, that are healthy living interventions, you're taking care of your energy cycles, your circadian and ultradian rhythms, you're using supplements that have a purpose, you're exercising, you're doing all of those things, they put you in a better position to adapt so that you are different from the person who doesn't do those things in terms of how those information-carrying radio waves impact you. Then, of course, interface or the space between the device and you is constantly varied.

Dr. George Carlo: Again, it sounds like a simple question. How much is too much? How long is too long? There are no simple answers, and that's what makes this so difficult. What do you need to do? You need to keep the exposure as minimum as possible, that helps, from your device. Distance helps so that if you use a headset, an airtube headset, or the Tauki headset that you and I have worked together on developing, that distance parameter is really important.

Dr. George Carlo: Now the other thing that's out there, there are technologies, one of them that I like is called the Quanta, which actually is an app that will alert you to when the emission from the phone is greater than an acceptable standard.

August Brice: And it will turn it off.

Dr. George Carlo: It can turn the phone off, put it into airplane mode. Those are all on the physics side, what comes out of the device. That's one side of the coin.

August Brice: But before we move to the other side of the coin, would you sleep with a phone next to your head?

Dr. George Carlo: No. Of course not.

August Brice: I mean I think we need to get that information out there.

Dr. George Carlo: Sure.

August Brice: I think there's still a little confusion about it.

Dr. George Carlo: Yeah. Again, look, the young kids, they use their phone as an alarm clock. They're worried about missing out on things, so they get texts in the middle of the night. This, from a biological impact point of view, is mad. It's mad. It's difficult to say, "Don't use your phone for an alarm clock." Well, then how can I use my phone safely as an alarm clock?

August Brice: Well, you put it on airplane. You can use your phone in airplane as an alarm clock.

Dr. George Carlo: Right, or put it on the other side of the room. There are ways of doing it. I think that what we always want to be careful in this kind of discussion is that what we want to do is empower people to make the right choices so that they can still use their technology, because it's really a nonstarter for most people now to give up the technology.

Dr. George Carlo: There's a whole discussion about whether or not it's fair that the technology permeated into society the way it did without proper testing and without proper monitoring and all that stuff. But the fact is we have it. How we got here is a different discussion. We're here now. We really want to be able to empower people to make safe choices. There are lots of them that people can be empowered with. I hope those are the things that we talk about in future podcasts as well.

August Brice: Yeah. Oh, absolutely. 71% of people query said that they sleep with a mobile phone next to or near their head in 2015. Incredible.

Dr. George Carlo: This is very alarming. One of the difficulties is that the impact that that has on them is insidious. They're not going to get into deep sleep, so that they don't sleep well. They might blame that on something else. They're going to have focus problems because they're going to have a grogginess the next day because they don't sleep well.

Dr. George Carlo: The defenses that our body has are lessened during sleep. Our metabolic rate goes down to something called the basal metabolic rate, so that it's our body powering down so that it can build up energy to be ready for the next day. During sleep is when our bodies are most vulnerable. Then what we're doing by putting the phone under the pillow or next to the bed is that we're insulting the body, exposing the body at a time when it's most vulnerable.

Dr. George Carlo: There are other sequelae to this or other consequences that will be individualized, so that if you have a ... Let's say you have a person who's nervous or is impatient. By doing this, the ability to adapt and compensate for nervousness is diminished, so that those things that make them difficult to be around are going to be exacerbated the next day. It's because of the interference of the energy from the phone with a body that's in a basal metabolic state, that's operating in a power down way as a means of preparing for the next day.

Dr. George Carlo: You have all of these things that most people would not attribute to the phone being next to their head. They would rather blame it on their spouse, blame it on the kids, blame it on the boss. But you're talking about a neurophysiologic impact at a time when our bodies are most vulnerable.

August Brice: I love this scientific explanation to just what I referred to as my delicious restorative sleep, the interference. Honestly, this is true, and my whole family will attest to it. If for some reason the wifi gets turned on in my completely EMF-free home, which I love, I will wake up without fail every single time the wifi is turned on in the middle of sleep. I will wake up, I will go look at the monitor, I will see that the wifi is on, and will turn it off without fail.

August Brice: Now that's because I'm so sensitive. Just necessary you may not be sensitive doesn't mean that the biological reaction isn't happening somewhere in your body. I think that's what you're pointing out.

Dr. George Carlo: Exactly. It's hard to make the connection. For example, if you don't get into deep sleep, your body does not produce melatonin. If your body does not produce melatonin, which is a repair and recovery hormone, you're not repairing and recovering from the damage that you do to your body just by living through the day. Repairing from sunlight, all of those kinds of things, there's damage that occurs that we normally are able to adapt to.

Dr. George Carlo: Well, if you don't make melatonin, then you have premature aging. You're not able to repair your skin. That's something that you can't look at it from one day at a time. This is measured over a period of years. You're 60 years old, but you look like you're 80. That's the kind of thing that's insidious.

Dr. George Carlo: The other thing that happens is this. If you don't get into deep sleep and the phone next to your bed will keep you from getting into deep sleep, you don't make the melatonin. If you don't make melatonin, you have low levels of serotonin the next day, because there's a direct correlation between the amount of melatonin that your body makes and the amount of serotonin that you have available the next day, because both melatonin and serotonin come from the same essential amino acid called L-tryptophan.

Dr. George Carlo: Now if you don't have high levels of serotonin, which is a neurotransmitter that is there for alertness, quickness, agility, all of those things that help you get through the day, if you have low levels of serotonin, you're in a jam. Somebody might be going down the stairs and they trip or they're clumsy. It's because they have low levels of serotonin. They would never say, they would never put the dots together, saying, "I wonder if I fell down the stairs because of having the phone next to my bed."

Dr. George Carlo: Those are the kinds of things that are insidious consequences that vary from person to person, but they're real because the underlying mechanism is known. We know about melatonin, we know about serotonin, we know about the need to get into deep sleep. We know that the energy from blue light on screens, the energy from information-carrying radio waves inhibit the production of melatonin because you can't get into deep sleep.

Dr. George Carlo: There's a whole science that's out there, and it's really important that we're able to make the connections. But the message always has to be there's something you can do about it. It doesn't do us any good to scare people.

August Brice: No. There's no fear at Tech Wellness. It's just an awareness-creating solutions-based site.

Speaker 1: The Tech Wellness Podcast continues in just a moment. But, first, the World Health Organization has designated EMF RF radiation from cell phones as a possible carcinogen, in the same class as things like diesel fuel. If you're interested in reducing the amount of EMF RF exposure in your life, one of the best and easiest things to do is to use an EMF-free headset when you're on a call or listening on your smartphone.

Speaker 1: At, we've been researching the best headsets for over a decade. Of all the models we've tested, we found the one that works the best, looks the best, and holds up the best. It's the Tauki airtube headset. It uses a hollow tube to deliver high-fidelity sound directly to your ears while keeping EMFs away from your body at the same time. The Tauki airtube looks great, too. It's available in black, gold, and our exclusive rose gold colors. August uses hers every day and loves them.

Speaker 1: Right now listeners of the Tech Wellness Podcast can get a Tauki airtube headset for themselves and save 50% off on one for a friend. That's buy one and get the second Tauki headset for 50% off when you use the promo code "podcast" at

August Brice: Hi, welcome back to the podcast. We're here again with Dr. George Carlo. We're talking about RF radiation and wireless energy. It's a really good discussion.

August Brice: George, you're so smart, and it's such a gift to hear you speak to these, the cause and effects of this energy. One of the studies that we feature on the site that I just love is a study about how the energy and melatonin production affects metabolism. There's actually a study ... Do about this one, where they measured the glucose levels before and after exposure to cell phone radiation and found that melatonin decreased and metabolism changed, creating hunger?

Dr. George Carlo: Yes.

August Brice: Are you familiar with this study?

Dr. George Carlo: Yes.

August Brice: Okay. That's another insidious thing. How could you ever think that your phone might make you hungry?

Dr. George Carlo: Exactly. It also depletes your ready energy, and that's the same mechanism, so that when your blood glucose level goes down, your body has to figure out how to replace that, how to replace that energy. There's an entirely different biological cascade that ensues. You look at things like diabetes, obesity. Those are all conditions that are metabolically triggered. They're metabolic imbalances. When we expose our bodies to these insults that are insidious but they're constant, we compromised all of those physiologic mechanisms.

August Brice: I'm going to ask one question and then get into the practical things that we can do. Is there any doubt that there's a connection? I don't think there is. Why don't more scientists speak up about this?

Dr. George Carlo: Well, there is no doubt. I think that we've known probably since the late 1990s that we were on a pathway that needed to be addressed from a precautionary point of view. There is no doubt, but the science is very complicated. I think that when you talk to scientists who are real scientists, they will say, on the one hand, it could be this, but on the other hand, it could be that. You can have really good, honest scientific people come to different conclusions from the same data.

Dr. George Carlo: That doesn't mean that one group is right and the other one is wrong, it simply underscores how complex this is. It's one of those things that there's a lot of noise around the signal, and separating the signal from the noise is very difficult because we have so many different biological outcomes that have been identified, the exposure is a moving target.

Dr. George Carlo: Just the example of cell phones. We had the first analog phones in the 1990s and now, 20 years later, we have people talking about the fifth generation of signals, the 5G. Well, that means that every four years, the technology changes dramatically. That's a moving target. I think that when scientists look at ...

Dr. George Carlo: Well, here's one other example. If you look at the medical literature, it takes about two to three years for new findings to pervade itself through the medical literature. Two to three years on average. Even things that are dramatic advances in medical science, they still take years to make it into the literature. Then it takes years for the practicing doctors who were out in the country, in Oklahoma, for example, to read the journals and to catch up. This goes for people all throughout the country who are medical practitioners.

Dr. George Carlo: The idea of pervading into medical practice new findings about diagnosing electrosensitivity, what lab tests work, how do we interpret this, it takes about a decade for that to make it into the medical vernacular. We're talking about a technology that's changing every four years, so that by the time something makes it into the medical vernacular, we've changed two more generations of the technology.

August Brice: Speaking of that, can you explain the difference between 5G and the type of waves that we're dealing with now? Because I understand it's going to be a millimeter wave. What does that mean exactly?

Dr. George Carlo: Well, here's what it means in general terms. Every time you go to another generation of the technology, it's to allow more density of information to be transferred [crosstalk 00:39:49].

August Brice: Does that mean that my meter that can now sense signals up to eight gigahertz will no longer be able to sense these millimeter waves?

Dr. George Carlo: Probably not. It depends on what the calibrations are. But, again, the reason that we go from 2G to 3G to 4G to 5G are because consumers are asking for that. They want to have more clarity in watching movies on their phones. The industry doesn't make billion-dollar changes just because they feel like it. They do it because there's a demand for it.

Dr. George Carlo: That's important to know because it isn't like the industry is trying to figure out some other way. They would be happy with 2G phones if everybody would use, and they'd make money. When you move to another generation, there's a reason for it, and it is because consumers are demanding something.

Dr. George Carlo: Now with something like 5G, I saw a commercial on TV the other day that talked about with 5G, you'll be able to have emergency doctors who are in ambulances do robotic surgeries to help save lives out in the field. Is that going to be practical? Probably. Is it something that most people would say, "Hey, that's pretty good, especially if I'm the one in the accident. If you could save my life, I want you to"?

Dr. George Carlo: The thing that's difficult is there's a cost for that. The cost means that with 5G, instead of having the signals on base stations that are 100 feet high, they're going to bring the transmission technology, the infrastructure to street level. They're going to be five feet off the ground, a lot of these transmission stations. Instead of being on high towers, they're going to be at street level.

August Brice: How is that different from the mesh network that I discovered in Boston? Is a mesh network different? It looked like wifis or many cell towers all throughout downtown Boston. The ambient measurement level was anywhere between 2,000 and 6,000.

Dr. George Carlo: The mesh and the DAS, the distributed antenna system, all of those over this ... We're now coming into the fifth generation. All of those have evolved to respond to consumer demand.

August Brice: How does that differ between fifth generation, or is that 5G?

Dr. George Carlo: It could be. It depends on how they use those transmission poles. They could put 5G on a mesh pole and still have clear signals, still function. Keep in mind that 5G becomes an option. Right now, if you're driving and you look on your phone, you're going into the country, for example, you might switch from 2G to 3G to 4G. 5G will just be one more option, so that you might not be able to download a movie if you're in a 4G area, but when you have 5G, you will.

Dr. George Carlo: Now, again, I'm not saying that all of this is fine. There are going to be now more challenges in terms of adaptation. The exposure in the environment is moving one more level, if you will. But it's important for people to understand that this didn't happen by accident, that there's a consumer response. In other words, it's because consumers are asking for it. That's important.

Dr. George Carlo: It's also important to keep in mind that we don't know what the effects of millimeter waves are going to be. Nobody's ever studied them. We don't know. The only thing that we can do in terms of risk assessment is to look at what we would call functional equivalents. What are the things about 2G which has been studied quite a bit that are similar to what we're going to have in 5G?

Dr. George Carlo: Well, we're going to have packeting, we're going to have co-domain modulation, we're going to have voice modulation. There are a number of things that are going to be similar, but we don't know. There's going to be guesswork involved in figuring out what the human health risks are going to be.

August Brice: You were talking about consumers are demanding this new technology. What's your read on consumers who are demanding less wireless energy in the environment?

Dr. George Carlo: Well, again, the commercial aspects of the way commerce works, those people who are demanding, and rightfully so, less ambient information-carrying radio waves and less ambient radiation, all that stuff, they don't really have an economic constituency. They don't have the power to change the economics. Their rights, in many, many ways, are being stepped on. But the system says it's economically driven.

Dr. George Carlo: Of course, the other part of this whole wireless infrastructure is that since 9/11, the safety overlay has become very important for first responders and antiterrorism steps and anti-cybersecurity steps, all that stuff. It's in the same infrastructure.

Dr. George Carlo: When people say, "I want there to be less radiation" ... In fact, I heard this one day in a meeting, and I couldn't believe what I heard. Somebody said, "Well, we don't want the tower there," and the person from this particular company said, "What? You want more terrorists in your neighborhood?" The fact is that you could construct an argument that says if you don't have the most up-to-date infrastructure carrying signals, then you won't have the most up-to-date cybersecurity. If you don't have the most up-to-date cybersecurity, you become vulnerable to bots and other types of things that are out there now in open ... They're out there.

August Brice: It's a tangled web that we've ...

Dr. George Carlo: Right. It's a tangled web, August. The thing is it isn't like in the old westerns where you have the good guys in the white hats and the bad guys in the black hats, and you're able to see who's who. It isn't that way. The industry is responding to what consumers are demanding, consumers are enthralled with things that make their life easier. You have people that run whole business from their cell phone, for God's sakes.

Dr. George Carlo: It is really complicated and there are no simple answers, but precaution makes sense in every aspect of this. While individuals can put precautions in place about your own interaction, your ability to adapt, all of that, businesses also should be precautionary.

Dr. George Carlo: I was talking to a group of realtors one day. They said that they need to be on their cell phones and that the company has actually given the cell phones so that they don't do personal calls on their real estate company cell phone. Well, when you have industries that require people to use devices that are potentially dangerous, we have something called the Occupational Safety and Health Administration that in factories, with all other occupations, look into that stuff.

Dr. George Carlo: We have none of that going on now with wireless technology, so that there are some steps that can be taken from a public policy point of view that are precautionary, that are within the system that we usually use to protect workers that could make things better. There's a lot that we can do, both as individuals, as a public policy people, there are political things that can be done. I think we have to chip away at it.

Dr. George Carlo: Back in the '80s, when cell phone technology was converting from a military tool to a consumer tool, the thinking about health effects that was in the public domain, not in the classified domain of the military but in the public domain, was that if you didn't have high power, you didn't have enough energy to heat tissue, and if you couldn't heat tissue, then there could not be health effects. That was based on microwave oven studies and those types of things that have been done in the '60s, '70s, and early '80s.

Dr. George Carlo: Based on the fact that it was low power, the industry was able to convince the regulatory authorities that they should be excluded from pre-market testing. That low-power exclusion is what allowed cell phones to come into commerce with no safety testing at all. Between 1984, when cell phones first came into use, and 1993, when the first question's about health effects in brain cancer were raised, cell phones had no safety testing at all. You had a decade of use where there were no guidelines, no emission guidelines, none of those things.

Dr. George Carlo: Now the program that we ran that I was part of during the '90s, the WTR, some of the things that came out of the WTR program that was put in place to fill in the data gaps, that were there because they were adopting the appropriate pre-market testing, some of those things like genetic damage increases in the risk of tumors up and some other things that were found in that program, had they been found in pre-market testing, cell phones would have had to had been changed before they came into the marketplace, so that the cell phones would not have made it into the marketplace had those data been available.

Dr. George Carlo: That's one of the things that makes this difficult, because you were able to get a product into commerce that permeated through society, never having been tested for safety. When that became clear that it hadn't been tested for safety, there was quite a bit of misinformation then that was put out to the consumers. That's a tragedy. Then, of course, there are some litigation around this even now. Those are some of the things that happened because the low-power exclusion was ill-advised in 1984.

August Brice: Right. You give delicious detail and you explained it perfectly in the book, Cell Phones: Invisible Hazards in the Wireless Age, [inaudible 00:51:25] interested in getting the background. I love that book. Anyway, you first introduced me probably seven or eight years ago to the precautionary principle.

August Brice: I believe the precautionary principle still holds true. If we can just really quickly go through the effective safeguards, if we want to exercise the precautionary principle, which is basically since we don't really know exactly what's going to happen, let's be careful, let's exercise some smart thinking when using this wireless technology as consumers. What are those basics right now that you-

Dr. George Carlo: Well, the first thing is distance. You want to keep the phone away from you. Distance is your friend because the further away the phone is from your body, the less the intensity of the field is and, therefore, the less of your tissue is exposed. In other words, the further away you are, the less tissue is exposed.

August Brice: Oh, wait. I guess to that point, I measure things all the time. I measured the other day different cases that people had sent us that either filtered the radiation or, in some cases, there was that one case that had an antenna that you pull out of the case and then the signal became a lot stronger, and the measurement of power density, which is what my meters measure, actually went down.

Dr. George Carlo: Right. But let's say that ... Again, you're measuring the physics, but let's say that the person was in between that antenna and the base station that they had to connect to. Now that signal has to go through the person to get to the base station.

August Brice: Oh, which is just such a scary concept.

Dr. George Carlo: Yeah, it is, but it's real.

August Brice: But this is how the energy works. This energy travels through walls, it travels through us, it's everywhere, but still if we can at least avoid being right up against that energy, we're better off. That's what you're saying.

Dr. George Carlo: That's what I'm saying. We're better off. That helps. Look, there are also some products out there that change the energy field a little bit. They change the wave forms by filtering it, by having it go through mesh. Some of those things are actually helpful from the physics point of view.

August Brice: You're not talking about the discs that you place on the phone.

Dr. George Carlo: Well, I don't want to talk about any particular product, but in general, some of those technologies that alter the wave forms can be helpful. Well, you can't really measure it because what your meters are measuring are really coherent signals that they're able to resonate with. If you have an incoherent signal, your meter won't pick it up. It's the incoherent signals that trigger the biological response in most cases.

August Brice: But we cannot be sure if those discs or filters are working.

Dr. George Carlo: Right. You cannot be sure. That's why when you talk about taking precautions, if there's a precaution that you can take that makes some sense, it's worth doing, keeping in mind there's no silver bullet. There isn't one thing that's protective. You have to do what we call primary prevention, which is minimize exposure, distance, alter the physics if you can, all of those. That's primary prevention.

Dr. George Carlo: Secondary prevention is making sure that our adaptive capacity is high. That has to do with the biology, the things that you do. You eat well, you exercise, you make sure that you get good sleep, all of those things. That increases your adaptive capacity. That's secondary prevention.

Dr. George Carlo: Then there also is tertiary prevention. If you get sick, you have to figure out how to handle the illness of electro-hypersensitivity. That's a place where we don't have a lot of answers yet because the medical community has not joined in the effort. That's one place that I think we need to, as scientists and as public policy people, we have to focus on the medical community so that they understand the steps that can be taken in a clinical setting.

August Brice: Aren't you leading that with the Adaptation Project?

Dr. George Carlo: Well, with the adaptation project, that's exactly what we're trying to do. We have some doctors and clinicians who are working with us. We're able to give people some suggestions for how to increase their adaptive capacity, along with those primary prevention steps, minimizing exposure, using a headset, putting the phone in airplane mode, don't sleep with it next to you at night, all of those things. That's part and partial to the secondary prevention aspects that we're doing in terms of increasing adaptive capacity.

August Brice: I just want to cover once more those filters, those discs, addons to the phones. What you're saying is you might as well get all of them because they might work? It's loaded. I know it's loaded. See, I prefer not to recommend anything unless I know that it works 100% of the time, because then people have this false sense of security. They're going to put a disc on the phone and hold it up to their head and say, "Look, I'm a superhero."

Dr. George Carlo: You are absolutely correct. I agree with you. The only mitigation in there is that we can never prove exactly what those things do and how they do it.

August Brice: Exactly. We can't prove that they don't hurt us and we can't prove that they do help us, just like ... That's the whole thing about the cell phones. The argument seems to be out there. Well, have we proven that they're safe? Well, have we proven that they're not safe? It goes both ways. To me, I feel really comfortable because I can feel the energy, knowing that the further away I am from it, the better I feel, and I want to share that awareness with people because I continue to say just because you can't feel it or see it or touch it doesn't mean it's not affecting your body in some way. Don't be afraid. It's just like wearing a seatbelt. Let's just be practical.

Dr. George Carlo: Right. You're absolutely correct. It's like the old saying, we're up the creek, but we do have a paddle. That's what we have to do. The science and the technology, all of that is part of the paddle up, but we just don't have it all worked out yet.

August Brice: Well said, Dr. Carlo. Thank you for bringing some clarity for this very complicated subject, which doesn't have to complicated.

Dr. George Carlo: That's correct. Okay, until the next time.

August Brice: Yes. Thank you.

Announcer: You've been listening to the Tech Wellness Podcast from, your hosts, Dr. George Carlo and August Brice. It's news, information, and analysis designed to bring understanding, awareness, and balance to our relationship with technology. Please subscribe and share this podcast and visit us at

]]> 2018-10-19T10:42:00-07:00 2019-07-16T14:57:56-07:00 Thriving With Technology Podcast TOP PRIVACY TIPS Alan Rebol

Available here too:


Online Privacy: Top 7 Tips From A Leading Expert

In this episode, August talks with one of the world's foremost experts in Cyber Forensics. Bryan Neumeister, head of USA Forensic, helps law enforcement, government agencies and the legal system. He can find erased information on cell phones--your bank accounts, exactly where you've been, the passwords to all your accounts and so much more. He can do the same with your laptop, as well as pick out a single voice in a crowded airport and help identify people on grainy video footage. Bryan and August talk about the best ways for you to keep your online information private and give you Bryan's top 7 tips to protect yourself and your family.


Be Well!

August Brice


Here's the full transcript of the podcast:

August Brice: Welcome to Thriving With Technology. This is the podcast from Tech Wellness. Now, you might know our mission is to help you achieve mindful living in a digital world. We want you to know what's going on out in the world of tech so that you can make good choices. We really do. Protecting your privacy online is a really big component of it. Now, I know some people would argue, and I'm included in that group, that there's just no such thing as online privacy, that even if there's just the presence of some digital technology, our privacy probably isn't going to be kept to ourselves, that in some way somebody's going to be listening or finding out what we're writing, texting, or saying. Well, today we're going to get some answers. We have an amazing guest with us, a worldwide expert in digital forensics. Now, Bryan Neumeister leads a company called USA Forensic. It's based in Phoenix, and it's built an international reputation for being able to find and clarify any kind of digital evidence that a person might leave. Bryan and his team work for law enforcement, they work for the justice system, and they come in in situations where data needs to be retrieved for any number of reasons, from computers, cellphones, cell towers, video, and audio recordings. So, as it happens, I've known Bryan for a long time. I met his incredible dad when I was interning at NBC. And you know what? It has been fascinating to watch Bryan's career. So Bryan, welcome to the Tech Wellness podcast.

Bryan Neumeister: Welcome. Thank you.

August Brice: I'm so excited. I want to talk about this. I want to talk about how you got into this just to start.

Bryan Neumeister: Well, I don't think anybody plans to get into this. I, back in the '70s, had a music scholarship at Cal State and became a news reporter at a small TV station after I graduated in Palm Springs. It was one of those situations where you did everything from report to change the oil in the news cars.

August Brice: I remember those days.

Bryan Neumeister: Yes. I was terrible on camera, so I realized it would be better suited for me to work with cameras on the photography side. I went from there to Reno and then to KPNX in Phoenix. KPNX gave me a foundation in working with tech. Because when I first came there I worked an overnight shift, and I used to go down and work with the switchers and pretty much anything. And then the engineers would come and fix what I did in the morning, basically. Later on, I got involved helicopter live photography, and that involved use of microwaves and stuff that I was really getting into. I started getting into the tech end of it. So spent about a decade in helicopters doing all sorts of innovative things, working with law enforcement, working with TV stations. Again, at that time I was also, in my spare time was spent making music. And it did pretty well. I did music for a lot of commercials, a lot of video games, that kind of stuff. And finally left the helicopter career to pursue that. And basically, music, at that time, was all computers. I had probably 40, almost 50, keyboards. They were all computer controlled. This is in the '90s. In order to be able to understand how to better utilize those primitive computers, we would tear them apart and rebuild them. And I was [inaudible 00:03:10] audio engineering classes now, the graduating classes. The best way to learn about something is to do it yourself, learn by failing. Yeah, that's the only way to get ahead. The thing is ... about digital audio, video, cellphone forensics ... it's all binary data. Once you know the basics, you have to do research. I would say we average two hours a day of actual research. Like we say, that software you're using is so two o'clock.

August Brice: Yeah, it's constantly changing. You just have to stay on top of it.

Bryan Neumeister: Yeah, for example, right now we're talking on a new version of iOS 11.4. there's always something new you have to be able to figure out how to get in and get around. We normally work for law enforcement. Of course, we work for a lot of private attorneys, insurance companies, store chains, airlines, you name it, banks, law firms. Our object is to retrieve data, figure it out, decrypt it, find out where it's been, see if it's been modified, which we see more and more of these days is people altering data and not knowing how to get away with it. For example, cases with document fraud. You're doing a case that's a very high-profile case where documents may have been forged, it's fairly easy to tell by going through the computer's registry what was done when and requesting access to the original data files as opposed to copies. We use what's called hexadecimal editors to understand how the process works, but it's amazing what people try to pull off with Photoshop and stuff, not realizing that the digital fingerprint is all in the meta data.

August Brice: Everything's trackable is what you're saying. So they try to use Photoshop. They try to change something, but you can see the changes.

Bryan Neumeister: Yes. We've had cases from all over. We have requests on our website, which basically asked, legally, for specific types of data. Chain of custody is very important in what we do. You can't judge if the Mono Lisa is real by looking at a Polaroid of the painting. You have to see the painting. So we're always asking for the original content. You can't take somebody's word for it. If there's a cellphone that comes into a situation, we'll want to do a forensic image of it ourselves and then work with that. We get requests a lot for almost anything you can think of, clarifying surveillance, which we can do an amazing job of. But really, because of my background in video, I was always interested in audio and video clarification. Getting a voice out of an airport would be another thing we're asked to do.

August Brice: I saw an example of this on your site. It's so cool.

Bryan Neumeister: It's interesting. Yeah. People don't realize there's no one panacea, no one program. In audio, I've probably got 400 different programs on different specific things. Right now I'm working with some other folks on voice recognition software for cellphone use. There's 70 PHDs involved in this project, involved in the various different things. For example, the way I'm talking, the type of enunciation, my nasal cavities, how that carries over cellphone, the pattern of my speech, the accents. All that has to be figured into a binary code that can basically create an algorithm that may at least limit ... It's never going to be 100% accurate, but it's going to limit your database. If you've got 15 suspects, it may eliminate it down to two, and then you go into the manual forensics of sorting out every vowel, every consonant with a linguist.

August Brice: Oh, Bryan, is there anything that you can't discover?

Bryan Neumeister: Yes. There's some very basic things. For example, on a cellphone people will think that they can erase data by deleting their texts or whatever. And that has no effect on recovering the data whatsoever. However, if somebody resets a phone to factory new, it does destroy the data. That, for example, would happen if somebody completely reset it for sale, for example if you're going to give your iPhone to somebody. However, people always forget that their backups are in the iCloud. And most apps, by default, backup to an iCloud or to whatever their phone system is. And the reason that is ... it's a very simple reason ... everything is based on economics. When you first get an iPhone, for example, you get a 5 GB free iCloud account. Well, 5 GBs is nothing these days. So as soon as you fill it up-

August Brice: You pay for more.

Bryan Neumeister: Yeah, 99 cents for 50 GBs. Oh, that's nothing. That's fine.

August Brice: Yeah, right. Here we go.

Bryan Neumeister: Yeah, and then you fill that up and, oh, another 99 cents and you got a terabyte or whatever. So all that stuff that remains up there is very and people don't know how to particularly edit or erase that very well. So we do a lot of our stuff by decrypting and getting into cloud accounts. Sometimes it requires a warrant. Sometimes it just requires permission.

August Brice: Oh, you know what? You said something that just really haunted me. When we were first talking about Tech Wellness website, you said you'd be interested in this. You said the cellphone is the cesspool of the soul.

Bryan Neumeister: Yes, absolutely. People do things on a cellphone that they never would ... For example, in drug cartels situations they'll snap a photo of a body-

August Brice: Oh.

Bryan Neumeister: ... and they'll quickly send it to prove they killed the person. Or they'll quickly send it to somebody and delete the photo. First of all, they've taken a photo and deleted it, which can be easily recovered. Second of all, you can trace, by GPS, where that photo was taken. And third, you can see who it was sent to. So it's basically like, "Here. Here's where I did this, and here's where I'm sending it." Very often we create a map based on how many Wi-Fi pings think are if you want to see where somebody's been in the past week or so or whatever, you look at their Wi-Fi patterns. People don't know this, but when you're downloading those apps that are free, they're not free. They're collecting information on your shopping activities, your driving activities, the stores you visit. That data is sold to marketing companies that, again, re-enter and sell that to specific needs. For example, if you go into Starbucks a lot, you might start getting a lot of ads for coffee and Starbucks coupons to keep you coming in. If you're driving on the freeway, then, it might alert you to the nearest Starbucks while you're on Google. It's a fascinating interweb of marketing and communications that is also really helpful forensic experts to track where these pings happen.

August Brice: Well, and as you're talking about that, just ... I'm back where you were talking about the apps being on. What if I disable the app after I download it and only enable it when I need it?

Bryan Neumeister: That's a good idea.

August Brice: Does that offer any protection? I get the little bit.

Bryan Neumeister: Yes, it's decent protection. Some of these things that are supposedly off really aren't off. When you turn off your Wi-Fi and your ... On the new iOS, if you turn off your Wi-Fi and your Bluetooth, it will restart in the morning. I mean, you can shut it off to certain devices and stuff, but in the morning, when you turn on your phone again, it's going to automatically kick back on.

August Brice: Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.

Bryan Neumeister: Yes?

August Brice: So I turn off ... On my phone. You're talking about on the phone?

Bryan Neumeister: Yes.

August Brice: I disable Wi-Fi.

Bryan Neumeister: Well, for example, if you flip up on the bottom of an iPhone, you'll see the icons for Wi-Fi, Bluetooth-

August Brice: Right. Go to the control center, turn it off.

Bryan Neumeister: Yeah, turn those off and then see what happens in the morning. After a 24-hour period passes they'll be back on.

August Brice: Anything I can do to override that?

Bryan Neumeister: Yes, you can shut it off manually in the control center. But the one that works on your slide up panel is a little different. Those are mainly made for turning it off in an airport or something like that. If you forget, they basically reset it in the morning. You want to keep an eye on your data. Again, there's no real panacea. These things are a screen door in a submarine the cellphones and computers these days, because what's the most valuable thing is data. Data o'plenty on a cellphone. People do things on a cellphone they wouldn't normally do in any other medium. It's pretty amazing what you find on people's cellphone. Like you said, we call this. The cellphone is the dumpster of the human soul.

August Brice: It's crazy. It makes sense because for so many it's just part of their being. We encourage a daily unplugging, so people keep perspective that the phone is just a machine, and it's not the boss of me. But I think they feel like their phone is them. And so, like you said, it's the cesspool of the soul because we've become one with our phone. It's super, super disturbing and scary. But I'm talking right now to the people who have that perspective and want to use technology because it's fun. It's great. It makes life easy. But we want to do it as safely as possible. So you were talking a little bit before about the specifics of turning apps on and off. What about location services? If they're turned off and the phone is in airplane mode, can you still find out where someone was?

Bryan Neumeister: If everything was turned off from the actual control panel as opposed to on the front of the phone, if everything was shut down, yeah. You still can if you know what you're doing. But sometimes that involves apps that aren't really accessible to the public. If you really want to be safe, you could power off your phone. That's even, at some point, very rarely questionable. But the best thing is a faraday bag, which is a bag that blocks incoming electronics. We those for all cellphones that come in to be examined. But it's basically a simple copper bag 'cause copper bags block the frequencies.

August Brice: Right. We have one on the site that I actually, that Hal uses, my husband uses. I use it as well.

Bryan Neumeister: Absolutely.

August Brice: But, and something that I became curious of the other day. I turned on my phone. I recorded video and audio, and then I stuck the phone in the bag, and it stayed on.

Bryan Neumeister: Yes.

August Brice: So it was off. We had no cell service. It was just me playing with the camera basically. And it could hear everything that we said. So are there apps or some malware or something out there that can actually access my microphone and my camera with my phone off?

Bryan Neumeister: Yes, but they have to be put on the phone before you turned it off. Actually, it really requires access to somebody's phone to that up.

August Brice: Okay.

Bryan Neumeister: You're not going to download that as a malware unless you're getting it from a real high-end agency. For the most part, somebody needs to physically access your phone.

August Brice: That made me feel so good. Sense of relief.

Bryan Neumeister: Yeah.

August Brice: Woo.

Bryan Neumeister: Yeah. There's another way to ... It's a very simple way, actually. People don't realize this. If you go to your battery settings, it says what apps are using your battery. It doesn't matter what's put on there. If you've got some kind of recording app that's on there, some kind of child minder or something like that that is voice activated, it will say that it was activated and how much battery it used. So the iPhone, without really meaning to, kind of tips the way the phone's being used. If you notice that your phone's abnormally warm even though you're not using it, it's a possibility you have a bit of spyware on there. It's rare, but I will tell you this. We do get called out quite often to what's called sweep a room, which is check for bugs and that kind of stuff. That's old technology. It's pretty rare. I got one case right now where they're sending me a stuffed animal that had one in it, but for the most part, it's all done through cellphones and computers with what's called keyloggers, which basically don't monitor your voice, they monitor what you type. I could tell you all kinds of horror stories about what can be done, but for the most part, this is not going to affect the average person, except on a PC. On a PC, a keylogger's fairly easy to get. And there's some free programs that get rid of that stuff very well.

August Brice: Oh, good. I'll put them on the site. I hear this statement all the time, especially from the generation that has grown up with this technology. They say, "I don't care. I have nothing to hide." What do you say to them?

Bryan Neumeister: Well, I'd tell you this. Any credit card number you've ever put in your phone, any bank password, anything you've ever put in your phone, I've got if I had your phone. It doesn't go away. I'll find your password to every account you have on your phone. When we get phones in on a criminal investigation, we're only limited by, for example, what a warrant says we can go after. We'll have all their passwords and all their tokens and stuff like that to every Snapchat account. That's another thing, too. Snapchat. Kids use it. They think it goes away. It doesn't. It doesn't.

August Brice: Where does it go? Where does it go?

Bryan Neumeister: Snapchat stuff stays on the phone, too. Any kind of photo that you might have sent, any kind of recording or whatever you sent is going to be on the phone still. It visually disappears, but again, what you see ... For example, when you're deleting a file on a computer, you're not deleting the file. You're deleting the link to the file. Now, eventually, it'll get written over as more and more data comes onto the computer, but today's cellphones where you have a lot of, maybe 256 GBs, you're not going to see stuff overwritten very quickly. Here's another thing people don't realize. You'll get a case where somebody says, "Well, this was not the iPhone I had during that time," or the phone. I'm like, "Did you have the same phone number and provider?" "Well, yes." Well, every time you make a transfer from one iPhone to the next iPhone, all that old stuff goes with it. So I might have a 2018, and I'm looking for 2013 data that was recorded from four iPhones ago, and I'll find it on that same iPhone on the new one. So it sticks with you.

August Brice: The interesting thing about that is, though, that I can't get that information on my own phone.

Bryan Neumeister: No.

August Brice: Why's that?

Bryan Neumeister: it's a forensic process basically. There are various forensic programs, like Cellebrite and Oxygen, which are what we call push-button forensics that are pretty good at doing the basics. But very often you have to get into writing code to get around key locks, to get around locked phones and stuff. You basically need to parse the, what's called, unallocated space on a phone. It's all going to be marked as deleted, but forensically, that stuff's recoverable and sometimes very valuable.

August Brice: Sure.

Bryan Neumeister: I'll give you a case that was interesting. It was a homicide case. I'll keep it generic. But person was accused of a homicide, and I went through that person's phone and I found photos of this person that were selfies with geo-coordinates in another city. So basically, we were able to prove this person was in another city. But he was not with his wife, so he had erased all the photos. And there were landmarks in the background and GPS, so the murder charges were dropped. But he was still a dead man walking because he was not with his wife, and he was taking photos. So it actually saved him in some ways and probably hurt him in others.

August Brice: Well, yeah. You have that interesting illustration on your site,, that shows an incredible amount of information that you can get from one single digital photo.

Bryan Neumeister: It is amazing. I do have a case right now where data was Photoshopped, a lot of cases where data has been Photoshopped. They don't realize that they can try to strip the meta data, but you could always figure it out. I had a case the other day where I showed a picture, and I had it run by another forensic team and they said, "Okay, that picture was shot in 2007 in another state." And I'm being really generic, but I said, "No, I actually shot it here two weeks ago. I just spoofed the meta data." And they're like, "What?" And I'm like, "You can spoof meta data if you know how to do it." Now, not a lot of people-

August Brice: Well, is there a way to turn it off? Can I turn off the meta data on my phone?

Bryan Neumeister: You can turn off certain things, but you can't turn off ... You could turn off your GPS, for example, on the photos, but you can't-

August Brice: No, I mean. Oh, okay. Okay. Location services.

Bryan Neumeister: Yeah. You can't turn off your dates created. You can't turn off that sort of stuff. So when you export it, a lot of the meta data that you see on those mini pages goes with it. The geo-locators can be turned off, but depending on what photo app ... You may not be using the regular photo app. You might have a Wi-Fi thing if you're using Camera Plus or something like that on an iPhone that give a Wi-Fi ping when you took a ... You might have your Bluetooth on with your ear piece on that could give us data. There's all kinds of ways to track down this stuff.

August Brice: If somebody really wants to know. So basically, if I want my business to stay my business, I shouldn't do it on my phone.

Bryan Neumeister: There are some apps, like Signal Audio, which congress now uses. It's called Signal. It's a free app to download. I recommend everybody have it. You can communicate securely, and that means you can't be interrupted by what's called a StingRay, or a device that is made to capture calls. Problem with a StingRay is they cost about $300,000, and you need a warrant to use them to intercept calls. It acts like a false tower. But you can build one yourself for around $1,300, certain kind of media outlets, tabloids, buy those things to intercept phone calls, or build them. Your privacy, again, is best to have a secure phone to phone encryption. When you use Signal, it gives you not only an encrypted path to path signal, but it also gives you passwords. If you both don't have the same passwords, that means there's a third party intercepting call. It's a very good app, and it's free. Like I say, congress was just told to put it on their phones, and I think everybody should be using it.

August Brice: Thank you for that, because my husband, Hal, actually downloaded that and asked me to download it. And I was afraid of it because how do you know what's safe? Do I have to call you every time and ask?

Bryan Neumeister: No. Actually Signal is a very well put together app because the way it's encrypted. Some of the guys that put it together, they designed some other apps that were very similar for different applications, and it's a very good secure app. People can feel very comfortable about using it. The other thing I suggest people have is called a VPN on their phone, and that's a virtual private network. The services for a VPN are very inexpensive. It's a few dollars a month. Any time you send an email ... and you can select what country you want it to come from. If I wanted to send you an email from Egypt, I could just click on it, and the routing information, the IP address, will come from Egypt. The reason these are good, especially in an airport, or any public place, you always want to be sending your data through a virtual private network because it's encrypted. And even if you're using a house Wi-Fi at a coffee shop, your data is going through various layers of protection that really make it darn close to impossible to get into your phone. Especially, like I say, airports and coffee shops. So a VPN service is imperative to have.

August Brice: Do you recommend one? Is there a particular one that you recommend?

Bryan Neumeister: No. I've got a few that we use, and they're the most common ones.

August Brice: Okay.

Bryan Neumeister: Now, they're-

August Brice: We'll put them up on the site.

Bryan Neumeister: There's some really good ones out there. What you want to look through is what their bandwidth, their throughput is. In other words, I've got about 150 countries or so on my phone that I can send messages through. Do you need more than that? No. What it does is it bounces the signals through a bunch of servers. You want to make sure that it's a good quality VPN. It'll be one of the name brand ones. And it's a fairly secure way to communicate. Is it completely secure? No. For the most part, for the average, every day person, a VPN is a great thing to have to keep from your banking password, anything like that, intercepted at an airport or a ballgame, whatever.

August Brice: Perfect. Thanks, Bryan. That's great, great, great advice. I'm wondering. What do you think about the reputation protection services and the LifeLocks. Do you think they work? Do you think we should all have something like that?

Bryan Neumeister: I remember when LifeLock first came out, I believe it was the CEO put his social security number on the side of a truck. And of course he got hacked immediately. Thinking that you are secure is a misnomer. There is no such thing any more. For every action that security companies do, there's a reaction. So it's just how long does it take the hackers to catch up? It's sport, basically.

August Brice: Same with those password protectors, so same thing.

Bryan Neumeister: A password protector is better than not having one. The worst thing you want to do is use the same password on everything. It's too easy to crack. One of the easiest ways ... People go, "Well, how did people get into my account?" Well, the way they got into your account is they didn't hack your phone. What they did is they found out a little bit about ... They went to Facebook, and they found out what high school you went to. They found out your favorite band. Then they call the customer support and say, "I can't get into my banking account." For the most part, people, for example, on their safety passwords, will put in their high school, their favorite band, the name of their first dog. This is all stuff that's easy to find out on Facebook. So very often people call and pretend to be the person saying, "I locked myself out of my account." They'll go, "What high school did you go to?" And you'll name it. I always recommend that people give wrong answers to security questions that they can remember.

August Brice: I used to try to do that. I used to give one word for all of them that had nothing to do with anything. And they don't accept that anymore. Now you have to really think about those made-up answers.

Bryan Neumeister: Anything that you can do on your own. These services are really limited. At one point they were reasonable what they could do, especially with credit card fraud. Because of legislative changes they're no longer as effective as they were perhaps six years ago. My thought is just common sense, very long passwords.

August Brice: And speaking of common sense, and I think I know the answer, but what's your perspective on Alexa, Google Home, HomePod. Do you have one?

Bryan Neumeister: No.

August Brice: Are they dangerous?

Bryan Neumeister: I think they're hilarious. It's just inviting people to spy on you. They're so easy to hack. I can see where they're helpful for an elderly person needing to turn on lights and stuff. We have a situation like that in our family, and it's great. However, they're not discussing work things. I would never have one in the workplace or in a private conversation area. They're too easy. You've got seven microphones on one of those things. And you got a Wi-Fi or Bluetooth signal that's easy to hack. So to me it's like sticking a microphone in your work place or your home. Some people might disagree, but they're fairly easy to get through if you're a tech.

August Brice: Yeah, thanks for that information, and are there any other devices that we should be suspicious of or that we should be extra careful around? I mean anything that just might even have a Bluetooth, like a Bluetooth speaker?

Bryan Neumeister: That's a really good question that most people don't ask. Here's a great example. It's called the Internet of Things. People want to have everything ... For example, my JURA coffee maker. It'll grind the espresso and stuff via my iPhone. The problem is there was a hack ... I'm going to say six months ago ... where they shut down a good piece of the East coast's internet. They shut down a lot of America's infrastructure. They didn't use computers. They used people's refrigerators. They used all these remote little things to basically harness-

August Brice: You mean because the Bluetooth went to the Wi-Fi.

Bryan Neumeister: Exactly.

August Brice: Tell me. How did that happen? Okay.

Bryan Neumeister: Rather than do the usual denial of service attack by using computers ... kind of an experiment, but they used anything that wasn't a computer, basically ... harness that horsepower to just jam up frequencies and signals. Any of that stuff, it can't be done by one person, but if you've got 20 or so, or 40 or so people teaming up, and they do a joint attack, you can really do a lot. I always said, look, a bomb will destroy a city. A computer will take down a country. And people have to be very cognizant of what's going on in the airwaves these days. There's a lot of federal agencies out there doing a great job just trying to quell the insanity that's out there.

August Brice: Am I better off in my low-tech home? If I actually don't have a lot of Bluetooth items, am I safer?

Bryan Neumeister: Oh, much so. Yes.

August Brice: Wow. From any, even a big attack?

Bryan Neumeister: It's all relative. Is somebody going to come up to your house and go, "I'm going to attack the internet by using Hal's [inaudible 00:27:27] system?" No.

August Brice: We don't have one.

Bryan Neumeister: No. Exactly. But I'm just saying it is a conglomeration of things. The less things you have sharing data, the safer you're going to be. The fact that you're selling the faraday bag on your site, I'm surprised that you even know what is. Most people don't, and they're so invaluable to have. You need these for your own protection. If you're going into a movie theater, stuff like that, people could hack into your phone so easily. I can tell you ways, offline, that data is gathered from cellphones by intelligence agencies just by walking by. If you're into a certain situation, you want to have your phone in a faraday bag, so your data just can't be harvested as you're walking by a place.

August Brice: I'm the same. But at my office everyone gets a faraday bag and places their phone in the faraday bag while they're at work.

Bryan Neumeister: That's great.

August Brice: They can go outside and use their phone. And it's just for me, because I can't control their apps. I can't control their phone, nor do I want to. But I can make sure that their phone isn't surreptitiously recording something that's important at work.

Bryan Neumeister: And people might think that's overkill. It's not. It is so simple to get into somebody's computer and put in a keylogger, or somebody's phone, and monitor everything they're doing. We have these cases all the time, especially in ... I hate to say it ... but especially in divorce cases. We handle everything from homicide to you name it. But divorce cases are about as bad as it gets. People will do anything, especially if there's a large amount of money involved. So the kind of tech gadgets that they're pulling out of their pockets these days, they're getting into people's home surveillance systems, all sorts of things, especially through the internet. Logging into somebody's surveillance system. I had to do a homicide job in another state where I needed to get into a system, and we were able to go back ... Even though the system had been destroyed, I was able to get the iCloud account of the homicide actually happening. It was something that was forwarded up to a cloud. But again now, think about this. If you're just walking around your house and you've got a surveillance system constantly running that's feeding into the iCloud account, there is no cloud account that isn't hackable. Somebody can find an easy way into that. So if you're walking around doing something, it could be easily hacked by somebody. You have to be very careful to control your data. Think of your data as your most important asset of privacy. So you're definitely going to want to have every way you can to protect it. iCloud storage and stuff, I'm not a big fan of any of that. We use very large servers, and we have them in different places.

August Brice: Your own servers that you own.

Bryan Neumeister: Yes. And we have them in different places just in case something happens to one set. Now, I know that's unique 'cause of the type of business we're at.

August Brice: Yeah, that's not-

Bryan Neumeister: ... but if you're going to put all your stuff on an iCloud, and somebody says it's unhackable, well that's the first thing that a hacker wants to hear. Really? Unhackable? That sounds like fun. Let's get a group of guys together and get a bunch of energy drinks and break into this thing.

August Brice: The stuff that you deal with, it's so amazingly, like you said, the cesspool of the soul. But you've got such a great sense of humor. How are you able to ... You haven't really even told us just the grime that you have to deal with on a daily basis. But obviously you do. But how do you keep your sense of humor? How do you keep perspective on all this?

Bryan Neumeister: My parents used to say, whenever I complained about anything ... It always stuck with me. My mom would put her hand to her ear, and she goes, "Do you hear that?" And I'm like, "What?" She goes, "That's the sound of no bombs dropping."

August Brice: I love your mom, [inaudible 00:31:04].

Bryan Neumeister: Well, they grew up in Europe during World War II.

August Brice: Right. I know.

Bryan Neumeister: So anything after that became less.

August Brice: The bright side. The bright side.

Bryan Neumeister: Right. While I worked in the helicopter, we did a lot of first response to plane crashes and to whatever. You have to distance yourself from it. You have to separate yourself from it. That is, you have to compartmentalize the stuff. I do think one of my main things ... and I will say that to our crew here ... is if we're not having fun, we're doing it wrong. The only thing is it does become your seven day a week life. My wife, the people I work with, this is all we do. It's rare that we get away, do anything else. But on the other hand, it's what we love doing. We have a seven day a week work policy, but we don't call it work. There's nothing else I'd rather be doing.

August Brice: Well, it is fascinating. It's an amazing field. You are so prepared for it. Your life story has brought you to this perfect place to do this work, and I love how on you say that you're available seven days a week, so call any time. I understand that one of the number one hacks is on your laptop webcam. I make these little stickers to put over. You can use tape. I really like my stickers because they say fun and happy reminders, like make good choices, or stealth. What else can we do about that other than covering the webcam? And is it true? Is it a number one hack?

Bryan Neumeister: It's not a number one hack. The number one hack is keyloggers. Now, what a keylogger is ... It can be downloaded in any sort of way. It's just a little app that anything you type is sent out to somewhere else. In other words, if you're on the internet and you're typing a letter, every keystroke you make is going to an external server.

August Brice: Totally creeps me out. How can I make sure I don't have one?

Bryan Neumeister: I'm going to give you the name of two freeware pieces of software that are great. One is called Malwarebytes.

August Brice: I have it.

Bryan Neumeister: And the other one is called SUPERAntiSpyware.

August Brice: Okay. Yeah, I use Malwarebytes. So that's going to protect me.

Bryan Neumeister: Now, I would say also if you're using Malwarebytes, use the premium version and turn on a setting called "scan for rootkits." It's worth it. Those are consumer level products.

August Brice: That's what we are.

Bryan Neumeister: Yeah.

August Brice: We're consumers.

Bryan Neumeister: And they work almost as well as the very highest end stuff. Now, we have some more intense stuff, but for 99% of things that you're going to run across, those two will handle it. I really like the paid version of Malwarebytes. And we beta test everything, and I am no way affiliated with them, but I really like their paid version.

August Brice: Okay, and I use it and I like it. But there's still nothing that can stop someone from hacking my webcam, right? That can just happen.

Bryan Neumeister: It depends. Again, you're not exactly hacking a camera. The question is are you hacking the outgoing stream or are you hacking the actual computer that it's on? I always just put stickers on every camera, and I also put them over the microphones. Now, you can also disable-

August Brice: I'm going to send you some.

Bryan Neumeister: Oh, cool.

August Brice: I had them especially made.

Bryan Neumeister: Sweet.

August Brice: I went out and found all the sizes and where all the microphone locations were on all the most popular laptops, and so I have really, really nice, thick stickers that say cute things that go over all the microphones.

Bryan Neumeister: That's a great idea. We do it on everything. Any phone that comes in here, everything. The first thing after is photograph and cataloged. Those things are marked off.

August Brice: Hey, wait a minute. Phones. I cannot cover the microphones on my iPhone. I think that it's somehow getting the sound through the screen.

Bryan Neumeister: Well-

August Brice: No?

Bryan Neumeister: No. No, it's-

August Brice: Okay, I'm a little paranoid.

Bryan Neumeister: Yeah, no. There's only two ways to get sound, really, to an iPhone. One is going to be the microphone. The other one's going to be any kind of Bluetooth accessory that you're using, like a headset, like a Plantronics or something like that headset. Yeah, you can't cover the microphone on that. That's where the faraday bag comes in because is if somebody's going to be recording something, it's going to be something to send out by a signal. If you have your phone in airplane mode, and it's in a faraday bag, it's as about as good as it's going to get without being ridiculous.

August Brice: But what if your phone is just sitting out? It's not in the faraday bag, you're using your phone. Can someone hack the mic or the camera while your phone is being used?

Bryan Neumeister: Yes. Again, really to get a good program on there, it requires access to the phone, though. Because the app store makes that kind of stuff ... It's almost like a nanny cam-type setup somebody would have to download onto your phone.

August Brice: Okay.

Bryan Neumeister: Apple is cognizant, or the other people are cognizant of that kind of stuff. If you have a jail broken phone, which means a hacked phone, it's easier to do than to a factory iPhone. If your phone is just laying there on the table, is it susceptible to that kind of tom foolery? Yes, it is. Is it hard to do? Much harder than they make it look on TV. There is the CSI factor where people say they're using all these extreme whiz bang gadgets on your phone. It's not really that much. It's just common errors that people do. For example, sloppy passwords or letting somebody see them enter a phone code or using a non-protected signal in a coffee shop, a non-VPN signal. That's how your data gets out.

August Brice: Or even allowing an app access-

Bryan Neumeister: Yeah.

August Brice: ... by virtue of their privacy policy and in enabling that app.

Bryan Neumeister: That's a very good point. Any time you download an app, go in and shut off the camera and microphone settings unless you really need it. And if you're not using it, like Skype, for example, when you called me here, I had mine off. So I basically had to turn on the mic and the camera again. Turn off. Go into your app settings and just turn off anything access to ... Same thing with your Windows PC or whatever. Shut off all the access. Go into privacy settings and shut every single privacy setting down. There's nothing there worth keeping on in the privacy settings in Windows 10, not a thing. Just go through it. There's tons of stuff that's giving away your day-to-day workings.

August Brice: Great. Great. And that brings me day-to-day email. Do you recommend a specific email program that values your privacy? And did you see my story on Google Vault? Did you happen to watch that?

Bryan Neumeister: I didn't. I did not. I'll check it out though.

August Brice: Well, basically you already know this. I discovered that every word that someone types on Gmail is saved to their servers even if they delete those words.

Bryan Neumeister: Sure. I will tell you this also. For example, let's say you deleted your Facebook account two years ago ... I mean you completely deleted it ... and I needed to get a hold of it for a legal case, I could.

August Brice: Well, and that makes sense to me. But the thing that really blew me away was signing up for Google Vault and then realizing that the drafts of my employee's emails had been saved, words that they actually deleted within seconds of creating those words, stayed on the server. And I don't think people realize that. Is that specific to all email programs or just to Gmail?

Bryan Neumeister: We use private servers. It's funny because I do use one old generic email that I think is funny just because it's an old AOL account. It's kind of a tech's laugh to send something over AOL because it's funny. But you don't use it for anything else. We use private email servers. We basically built them ourselves. Most people can't go through that. As far as email, you'll hear that various companies that are email handlers get broken into, as far as their data. That's going to happen. So keeping your stuff on a private servers is pretty much the way to go. The other thing is ... People don't realize when you upload a picture to Facebook or whatever, they own it. They can do with it what they want. Same with all these companies. They own that photo. They can use it in advertising and not pay you. Your data doesn't belong to you. It belongs to whatever server you uploaded it to.

August Brice: I understand. Should small businesses have their emails servers?

Bryan Neumeister: Oh, absolutely. They're fairly easy to set up. It's worth a few thousand bucks to get a good server, especially if you're dealing with any kind of trade secret, or trade craft, or any kind of proprietary information. Of course, you should have your own servers.

August Brice: But once it goes out to the Gmail universe, even if somebody that you're communicating with, like you ... If you communicate to me on Gmail, they have it even if your server is encrypted.

Bryan Neumeister: That's true. That's why you can use peer-to-peer emails like Pronto Mail or something like that that's encrypted.

August Brice: That you want to remain private.

Bryan Neumeister: Yes. There are apps like that. You can also encrypt any emails. We do that a lot with cases. The emails are encrypted, and then we call them with the decryption key, so we don't send, obviously, the key in a follow-up email. So you would send an encrypted email that can only be unlocked with a certain password.

August Brice: Right. Not so easy for day-to-day communication with your mom.

Bryan Neumeister: No. And again, for day-to-day, 99% of the people don't need to worry about it. It's not like there's constant surveillance of everybody on an individual level. There is constant surveillance through NSA and stuff, but they're not looking at everybody's stuff. They're looking for keywords.

August Brice: Okay, so for all the regular people ... before we go here, Bryan ... can you recap the top tips that we should be using on a day-to-day basis to protect ourselves?

Bryan Neumeister: On a day-to-day basis, or for Windows, go through on the privacy settings and turn off every single thing that shares data. You just go to privacy. Just click on privacy, under settings, and there's lots of stuff all the way down to Xbox settings sending your data out. Also, on cellphones, use a VPN, which is a virtual private network. They're very inexpensive. Great way to keep your data secure. Go into your settings, turn off all your sharing info on each individual app. Every app wants your data. Turn off camera and microphone access to every app. It's just simple things.

August Brice: This is the outro. Wow, that's all excellent advice. Thank you, Bryan. Once again, our guest today, Bryan Neumeister, head of USA Forensic. If you want to learn more, if you want to hunt somebody down, head over to The site says "open seven days a week." That's awesome. Of course, we've got more great information like this on Tech Wellness, too. In fact, what I'm going to do is put all of the resources and advice from today's episode on the site. Visit, click on privacy. I'm also going to give you a link to this great video, how to disable your microphone on your computer and your smart phones. And actually, I know it's pretty cool because Dr. McCuller recently put this video on his site for this special cyber security post he was doing. So you've been listening to Thriving With Technology. If you enjoyed this show ... I hope you did ... please like us on the iTunes store and share it with your friends. I'm August Brice. Be well.

And one last Tech Wellness online privacy tip: If you care about privacy: Keep Google off your phone! Other Excellent Privacy ideas here

]]> 2018-10-19T10:42:00-07:00 2021-08-27T12:00:55-07:00 Thriving With Technology Podcast EMF SENSITIVITY August Brice

Available here too:


﻿Smartphones and WiFi Made Them Sick: Does EMF Protection Work? We had conversations with real people who have Electro-Magnetic Sensitivity or EHS.

This is an amazing episode.  Let's start by being honest.  Many people just don't believe that their cell phones and WiFi can actually be harmful. They are not convinced that their favorite personal possession could possibly hurt them.  It just wouldn't do that. If you know anyone experiencing things like headaches, anxiety, rashes, insomnia or other auto-immune issues that they can't find answers for, please share this podcast with them!

In this episode, you'll hear how from people whose health has been turned upside down by this unseen wireless energy that surrounds us and our children more every day.  They are regular, healthy people like you and me.  But when you hear about how their health and their lives have been impacted, it's hard not to believe.  

We attended a Global Conference in Southern England on the state of research on the potential effects of electromagnetic radiation, a type of EMF.  Bottom Line:  There is a biological effect on all of us.  It's been well documented over the last 30 years.  Here's a compilation of some of our latest  Research Findings.  The scientists we spoke with say the question of whether or not EMF is a public health concern was answered years ago.

At the Conference, we also met and interviewed people who suffer from Electromagnetic Hypersensitivity.  They people could easily tell if someone had brought their smart phone into a meeting.  They could feel it.  These EHS sufferers had quit jobs, moved, many times had gone to multiple doctors to try and get to the cause their symptoms.  One man told us he would often leave his wife and children on weekends, just so he could drive far out into the countryside, to places where there's less wireless radiation. His EMF protection was less of it.  Because radiation worsens his symptoms.  

The lesson for us in this is to be smart about it.  No one wants to give up their phone for all its delicious convenience.  But we also don't lay out in the sun for hours without using sunscreen.  We probably don't stand with our heads next to an operating microwave.  We take easy and reasonable steps to reduce our exposure to something that could harm us.  

That's why you should read our TOP TIPS FOR LIVING BETTER WITH TECH on our website.  


Be Well!

August Brice


Here's the full transcript of the podcast:


August Brice: Hi everybody. I'm August Brice. Welcome to the Thriving With Technology Podcast. This one is a really, really good one, and I am so happy that you've joined me today. We were at a global electro magnetic hypersensitivity conference in England, and we were out in the middle of nowhere, where there were no EMF, and it was gorgeous. You'll hear throughout the podcast birds chirping, and the sounds of falling rain, so just keep that in context as you're listening. Also today, it's really, really important that you know that this is a glimpse into the future.

August Brice: This might not concern you right now, but believe me, these are people who were completely healthy and normal, and then just got around a little too much wireless energy. It could happen to you. It did happen to me. I think of this especially in the world of autoimmunity as something that we ought to have our eyes open and our ears open to hear. So if you, or someone you love, has been having some weird unexplained symptoms, or if you have an autoimmune issue, please listen carefully. I think this could be really helpful for you. If you have questions, reach out to us on We also have an extensive write-up there.

August Brice: I'm here in the southern countryside of England, way out in the middle of nowhere. Literally. We drove for miles off the main road to get to this very remote location at a beautiful place called Sedgwick House, that is just about EMF free. Now, why that's important is because today I'm here for this conference on electromagnetic hypersensitivity, or ES, and it's really for people who are sensitive to electromagnetic radiation. Today, three of the world's top scientists are here to tell us how this electromagnetic radiation is affecting our bodies, and why it's affecting our bodies, and I'm super excited to share this information with you. Now, you've heard me talk a lot about EHS, or ES, electromagnetic sensitivity, because I've got it. I've got a mild form, but it's hard to really grasp just exactly what it is until you hear the stories and the symptoms of many people who are plagued with it every day.

Speaker 2: Basically, I was visiting the doctors. I'd say, "I feel really, really unwell."

August Brice: He was working at British Telecom, first installing WiFi routers in people's homes, and then later he was transferred to performing maintenance on cell phone towers. That exposed him to high levels of wireless energy.

Speaker 2: Each day just gradually got worse and worse. I was going to the doctor saying, "I'm in these areas and I'm thinking there's something seriously wrong going on with the chemistry inside me." You know? He just diagnosed it as eczema. Severe eczema, and an autoimmune disease.

August Brice: And Ryan Warren began noticing symptoms when did new WiFi was installed.

Ryan Warren: I suddenly get all these strange sensations in my head, you know? And a prickling on my face. At first I thought, "Mm. What's this all about?"

August Brice: Jason really started feeling symptoms in his late teens, when he was doing what a lot of kids all over the world do today, talking on his phone, working on his phone, and gaming on his phone.

Jason: I started just feeling a bit stiff in my bones. I've always been a very flexible, flexible person. I've always been quite subtle, is it? I've been limber and everything, really fast, but yeah, I guess it was just a bit of clickiness. I felt like a bit of clickiness. Yeah, like why am I, at 19, feeling stiff and achy? I shouldn't need to go and do yoga. It might be linked to just bad neck, and spine, because obviously, I know my channels are blocked going down my back of the head into my neck, and I know that my teeth have a few problems, and it's all sort of starting to ... I'm getting feelings in the back of my head, which I've never had before. So now, the whole saga has, my anxiety levels have gone up.

August Brice: John's an EMF activist who's been working hard to spread the word in hopes of having cell phone towers moved away from places where people live. He too feels his body change when he's in the wake of electromagnetic energy.

John: Sleeplessness is the first one. Fatigue. That's my excuse I give to the wife or husband. Fatigue. Peripheral tingling is one. My legs frequently itch and tingle. That's how it affects me, and then during the day, I have to take a nap. An hour precisely. An hour and 15 minutes. That's how I know that it is not just ordinary biological aging process.

August Brice: Now, over the years, I've probably talked to 50 people or so who say they experienced the same things, and time after time I hear that it was right after a new WiFi was installed, or a smart meter.

Demetrius P.: I got a new router from British Telecom. I was on my laptop, and the router was here, and I realized after I'd been on it, the computer, for about half an hour, I got a bad headache. I'd get a pressure in my ears, and it would get really quite intense, and that would lead onto a headache, and it would feel like my head was in a vise. It was being compressed.

August Brice: It was amazing to speak to these people who are suffering from severe EHS. Many of them could sense if there was a WiFi on nearby, or if someone had just bought a cell phone into the room. Now, I'm EMF sensitive and my superpowers, or sensitivities, allow me to know when a phone is on when I touch it, and honestly, I do wake up if the WiFi switched on when I'm sleeping, and I typically do get a ringing in my ears when I'm exposed to WiFi energy for any length of time, but the sensitivity I encountered at this gathering was on a whole different level, and I think we may be seeing the tip of the iceberg.

August Brice: Again, common symptoms of EHS include headaches, concentration difficulties, sleep problems, depression, rashes, lack of energy, and flu-like symptoms. Dr. Magda Havas from Trenton University did her postgraduate research at Cornell, and she's been a leader in the study of EHS. We've got a link to a great conversation with Magda Havas have is Now, while most of us don't have any sensitivity to EMF yet, there's no doubt. Electromagnetic radiation, and that's the stuff emanating from all manner of wireless, has a biological effect on our bodies. Study after study confirms it, and more and more research is connecting to specific outcomes of radiation exposure.

August Brice: Demetrius Panagopoulos, who presented research at the event, has authored 33 research studies in this area, and he believes that we shouldn't be asking the question if electromagnetic radiation can harm us, but instead how can we limit our risk by limiting our exposure?

Demetrius P.: Modern telecommunication microwave radiations are very bioactive. DNA damage is the worst scenario. Unfortunately, these type of radiations, they do cause DNA damage. This is shown by many studies now.

August Brice: Dr. George Carlo was also at that symposium. He literally wrote the book, the very first book, on the dangers of wireless radiation in America. George is also concerned about the continued explosive growth of EMF radiation exposure, but he believes at some point, the US government will have to step in and limit our exposure.

Dr. George Carlo: I mean, we've done it before. We have regulatory structures that we use to clean the air, clean the water, and make consumer products safe, so we have a framework that we can work within to make positive changes. The thing that I'm most concerned about is that the challenges are maybe bigger, and growing more than we realize. I worry a lot about the psychological addiction, about the physical addiction component, you know, the biological effects of DNA damage, all that. That's now, we've been studying this for 30 years and we understand that, but in terms of those impacts on our next generations, they're not being studied. We have only anecdotal information, and I think that's where we're going to need to focus our efforts, as well as with these biological effects, these areas that we've already been able to solve, like air pollution, water pollution, that kind of thing.

August Brice: And there's Professor Olle Johansson. He is from the Karolinska Institute in Stockholm, Sweden, and he has also spent decades studying electromagnetic radiation. He consults with the World Health Organization on the issue as well. I think you'll love what he said in his presentation, when he reminded us that electromagnetic radiation, that's the stuff from WiFi, cell phones, and Bluetooth signals, is classified as a possible carcinogen, but it doesn't raise the same concerns for some reason, as other toxins that the World Health Organization has put in the exact same danger classification. Here's what he said.

August Brice: "If you told parents that you were going to have DDT, diesel fuel, welding fumes, and organic solvents dispensed into their kids' classroom, you'd have a riot. But if you say the class will have a very powerful WiFi, they say, "Oh, good."" Think about it. It's profound. And the thing is, most people just don't have any kind of sense of the potential harm. I mean, we have a good friend who had her WiFi positioned right at her feet under her desk. We talked about moving a number times and of course she said, "Yeah, yeah, yeah, but you'd have to call the cable guy, and he'd have to move to the other side of the house." So, she just didn't do it. But then one day her dog, who laid at her feet all day, lost her hearing, and her own toes started tingling, and that was the day she realized that things had to change.

August Brice: My point of view, and it's shared by a lot of scientists, is to enact something called the precautionary principle, which is basically, since we don't know exactly how much of this wireless energy is safe to be around, better to be safe than sorry, and exercise precaution. Don't stand next to a WiFi. Wire up to the internet whenever you can. Tell schools, no WiFi in the classroom, and maybe even try the idea, I like this one, of sharing a WiFi a condo, or an apartment building, and try to stick to those lower power WiFis. Keep your phone in airplane mode as much as possible. Basically limit this energy as much as you can, and that's what Olle thinks too. He has seen progress in the time he has been studying the issue, and he thinks it's really up to all of us to tell people what's happening.

Olle Johansson: You know, I am actually very positive about the future, because things definitely are happening, like nine countries around the world that are putting different forms of bands on wireless technologies in schools. In parallel to this, scientists tried to come up with new solutions both, from a socio-behavioral point of view, how we actually use these gadgets, and when we use them, and for what, but also new technologies, new solutions, so I think around the corner we will see a new revolution. With 5G, 6G, and so on, let's make it safe.

August Brice: Well, like you said, it just takes conversation.

Olle Johansson: Yes indeed, yeah.

August Brice: Each one of us can create awareness.

Olle Johansson: Yes, and spread the message. Make people start thinking. Put the seeds into the soil and see where it leads us.

August Brice: Because there's what, thousands and thousands of research studies, showing that?

Olle Johansson: Oh yes, indeed. There's so very many, you know? There's no dispute about aura. Very serious effects, and we just need to change the scenario, and make it safe.

August Brice: The conference was an intensive look at the state of the research on electromagnetic radiation and the effects, but beyond the science, really the most powerful part of the weekend for me was having the chance to hear the stories people suffering from electromagnetic hypersensitivity, EHS. So, should we be thinking of them as our early warning system, our canary in the coal mine, if you will? These are people who show us very clearly what the implications of continued unbridled exposure to man-made EMF can do.

Speaker 9: I mean, at the end of the day, there shouldn't be a radio unless at the levels they are. I should be able to go home to an radiation free environment. I shouldn't have to have to go home and then be like, "Ah fuck, I want to sleep in the garden now, because my head's hurting." There's a difference between me in the garden and in my house. That shouldn't be the ... You know what I mean?

August Brice: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yes.

Speaker 9: If it makes you feel like you have a hangover, now I'm having to sort of watch everything I eat, watch what I smoke, watch this, watch that. I'm having to live like a yogi now, because there's so much crap being thrown at me. I'm having to live like a bloody Buddha, and I don't want to live like a Buddha.

Speaker 10: I got in touch with the British Telecom because you can't actually turn it off yourself. You have to actually go centrally to British Telecom to make sure that the router isn't actually putting out WiFi, even if you cabled it. They showed me how I could do that, and I've been a lot better.

August Brice: Now, I wouldn't expect that you would have noticed any relief just in one day. But here we are in an EMF-free environment. Did you feel any better today?

Speaker 11: I'll be honest with you. I been going away recently, and leaving my partner and children at home, for like a weekend, or one day or night, staying out in areas where there is no broadband or WiFi. My phone doesn't work, for instance. And I've realized, "Oh, I'm not itching tonight."

August Brice: Awesome.

Speaker 11: I go home on the Sunday night. I'm in the house for one hour, sitting in the living room, and the itching comes back. It's incredible.

Speaker 12: And then of course, avoid as much of this wireless technology as possible, and keep it away from the kids.

August Brice: I agree. But, do you have a cell phone?

Speaker 12: No.

August Brice: Do you use a phone?

Speaker 12: No. Nope.

August Brice: Wow.

Speaker 12: I was given a cell phone, because I've been given three. In all that time, I have received several calls, and that's all I can say. The first time it hurt my ear, and I thought, "This is nuts. Why would I want to hurt myself? Why would my ear burn after using a telephone?" No, this isn't for me. So, I've luckily avoided it. Common Sense.

August Brice: Good for you.

Speaker 12: Yeah. Yeah.

August Brice: That's very intense and very [inaudible 00:15:42].

Speaker 12: Yeah. Yeah.

August Brice: You're certainly walking your talk. That's good.

Speaker 12: That's the point of the issue. You can only be who you are. I'm trying to protect my fellow man just as much as I would like someone to help me if at all possible. But I think most human beings, if you can't see it, it doesn't affect you. And this is the biggest lie that has ever been told to humanity, and it's around the world now.

Speaker 13: I was unaware. No one made me aware. I had to sort of go through a lot of crap, and go and spend money on holistic doctors [inaudible 00:16:21], and this, and that, and that. All sorts of stuff to just realize that it was nothing. It's not me, it's them. It's the environment.

August Brice: [crosstalk 00:16:30]. Yes.

Speaker 13: The environment has become inferior. I am all right. You know what I mean? So, I can go, and I can rest in a frequency free zone and I'm fine. Happy as Larry. Sleeping, waking up and singing. You know what I mean? You know that stuff you haven't done in awhile, and you're like, "Oh wait, I am still there." You know what I mean? I am still there. It suppresses everything in a way.

August Brice: That's an interesting point of view. "There's nothing wrong with me. There's something wrong with the environment." Now, from my anecdotal experience, people who develop EHS seem to develop it after an intense or long term exposure to wireless radiation. Typically the WiFi, and once again, here are the facts. There's no doubt. There's a biological effect from radiation sources, and even if we don't feel it right away, research tells us this radiation exposure is cumulative. It's kind of like how the sunlight affects our skin over our lifetime, and that's what I've said for years. The less the better. If you don't have any of these symptoms, count yourself lucky. I think it's actually really easy to limit your exposure, by the way. We've got tips on the website,, and they include simple stuff like turning off your WiFi at night, and keeping electronics out of the bedroom, and maybe more difficult but I think super important, get the WiFi out of your kids' schools. Thanks for listening. Until next time, I'm August Brice. Be well.

Announcer: You've been listening to Thriving With Technology, the podcast from If you enjoyed the program, please share it with a friend, and like it on the iTunes store. For more information about mindful living with technology, visit us anytime at

]]> 2018-10-19T10:41:00-07:00 2020-01-05T20:12:18-08:00 Thriving With Technology Podcast SMARTPHONE AND SCREEN ADDICTION August Brice

Available here too:


Is Internet Addiction Really A Thing? The World's Leading Expert, Dr. Kimberly Young, Says Yes.

In this episode, August Brice talks with Dr. Kimberly Young, world-recognized, leading expert and founder of The Center for Internet Addiction.  Dr. Young is also a Tech Wellness Expert. Learn more about Dr. Young HERE

She has been studying the issue since the late 1990's and she is certain that the internet can be as addiction as gambling and pornography.  Think you might have a bit of an internet problem yourself?  Then take Dr. Young's INTERNET ADDICTION TEST.  It's completely private and based on your score, you'll get tips on how to create a better digital diet in your life.


Be Well!

August Brice


Here's the full transcript of the podcast:

August Brice: Hi, I'm August Brice. Today I'm excited, very excited, to have on the show the woman who literally invented the whole concept of internet addiction, Dr. Kimberly Young. Hi, Dr. Young.

Kimberly Young: Hello.

August Brice: How are you?

Kimberly Young: I'm doing well today, thank you.

August Brice: Great. You are such a visionary. Listen to this. Dr. Young's bio is on our site at, but the short version is that she's been studying internet addiction since the '90s. In 1995, she founded the Center for Internet Addiction. Dr. Young has also authored numerous books, starting with Caught in the Net, and that was the first book to identify internet addiction. She's been on every major news program from Fox to CNN. She's been on Good Morning America, World News Tonight, the list goes on and on, and she created the most widely recognized test, actually the gold standard, for internet addiction. So Dr. Young, I have to ask you, what was there to be addicted to on the internet in the '90s?

Kimberly Young: Well, it's always a good question, and it's an exciting time for me. My background was actually in neuropsychology and that was in the late '80s, early '90s. Around the early '90s, we started hearing more media reports about the information superhighway was coming. Well, my background was also in computers, and so when I looked at the computers and the psychology of it, my gut reaction was to say that something was addictive about it. But it wasn't until a friend of mine's husband was addicted to AOL chat rooms. He was spending 40, 50, 60 hours a week at a time when it was still $2.95 an hour. Not only did this create a financial burden, but their marriage eventually ended in divorce, because he was meeting women in online chat rooms. It made me wonder if people could get addicted to them in the same way we talk about drugs, alcohol, and sex. So I posted a small survey online taking the same clinical criteria for compulsive gambling, so I substituted the word internet, and I wanted to see what I would find. Well, the very next morning I had something like 50-some email at a time when I probably only had two email a month. Again, we're talking about early 1990s. It was still forming. We were still trying to figure out eCommerce. We were still trying to figure out so many things on how to utilize the World Wide Web. So I expanded my survey, because I saw I had hit a psychological nerve. I mean, people were telling me how they got divorced, how they lost their jobs because of the internet, students across the country having problems with the very tool that they were being encouraged to use. Really, then, my first study culminated in a paper at the 1996 American Psychological Association. Because it was the first, and I was identifying internet addiction as a new disorder, it had a lot of controversy, a lot of media attention. A few years later my first book came out. Again, a lot of controversy, a lot of media attention on Caught in the Net, because these were very new topics. I think over the later part of the '90s, early 2000s, more researchers started replicating this work, figuring out that there was a problem, especially in Asian cultures, in China, Taiwan, Korea. They were really pumping out a lot of the newer research at that point.

August Brice: So way back when you first found your friend's husband, your friend brought her husband to you and wanted you to study him, when you sent out the research you found it wasn't just your friend's husband. It was just everywhere.

Kimberly Young: Right. That was just the catalyst for it, my first idea, if you will. Every new research project has to have some kind of catalyst, I think, and that was mine. But there were many, many others.

August Brice: So the whole thing is picking up so much thing now, but still I think people really want to know, what exactly is internet addiction?

Kimberly Young: Well, like any other addiction. I mean, it's not, you can't just count the number of hours, like people would say, "How much time is too much time?" And it's not like, well, 10 hours a week is okay but not 11 or more. I mean, it's like counting drinks for an alcoholic, 10 drinks a week is okay but 11 is not. I mean, it's more about a set of behaviors. So what we have to look at are things like compulsive use, the inability to control use, the idea that somebody becomes irritable or upset or depressed without technology, that they use it as a form of escape, that they go through withdrawal. So now we're talking about things that are much more like any other addiction. It's become a problem. There's a consequence to the behavior and an inability to control it. That's internet addiction.

August Brice: It's the same as smartphone addiction, device addiction, online addiction. It's all the same thing, correct?

Kimberly Young: Yes. I mean, the terminology is not as relevant as the behavior. I mean, it all means the same thing. I've heard technology addiction, internet addiction, computer addiction. I mean, I think we're all trying to talk about the same thing.

August Brice: Do you have any idea how many people are afflicted? Is there a percentage that you've been able to identify of the entire population?

Kimberly Young: Unfortunately, no. There really hasn't been any new studies. I know that Stanford University years ago had done a study that estimated one in eight Americans suffered from some form of internet addiction, but there really hasn't been any national studies like they have in other countries.

August Brice: Okay. I know that there's a line when you know for sure someone is addicted, but are there clear warning signs that you've been able to identify that maybe somebody is on the edge between obsession and addiction?

Kimberly Young: Oh, yes. It goes back to the same clinical criteria that I mentioned earlier. It was just more of a focus on compulsive use, consequences for the behavior, I mean, has the person lost their job, has the person gotten warnings for losing their job, has a person experienced maybe a separation, not yet a divorce but their wife or husband is upset because of the time they spend online? So I think there's warning signs that there are with alcoholism or drug dependence as well.

August Brice: Okay. So what's the most drastic example you've seen of screen addiction?

Kimberly Young: I really, I can't say one thing. I think the one thing that stands out, and this is back in the early '90s, that was just sort of ... sent chills to me, and I'm trying to remember the location of it, but I want to say that basically, this young boy was very addicted to his computer technology. His parents were divorced. Dad got him the computer, but didn't live at home. Mom one day just got fed up with his dependency, took it away, and the next day she was found dead. He'd shot her. There was a gun in the house. He knew where the gun was, and he shot his mother because she took the computer away.

August Brice: Wow.

Kimberly Young: And I remember getting chills when I heard that, because it was the police that were calling me, trying to get some insight on this young man. But now, just as recent as last week, there's a murder trial in California that I'll be testifying and working with, because it had to do with murder, and it was kind of a parallel situation where this video gamer, the mother was trying to stop him from gaming, and by accident broke the shield and the gaming equipment on his face, so he couldn't [inaudible 00:07:38] play. There was apparently a loaded shotgun in the house, and he killed her. So I think those are probably extremes, but they're real. They were real then, and this case, like I said, is very recent. It's real now.

August Brice: Wow. That just takes my breath away. That's incredible. I know I can envision something like that happen, but so many people kind of tease about internet addiction. You know, you see somebody on their phone a lot, "Oh, you're addicted." I mean, even people who write articles about people, calling them addicted, say, "Hey, I'm looking at the news. I'm checking my stocks. I'm texting. I'm searching for things. How can you say I'm addicted?" Why don't we take this disorder seriously?

Kimberly Young: Well, I think one, Americans tend to be more cautious than other cultures. I mean, it is an accepted disorder in many cultures. China, Korea, Taiwan, for example, they have mandatory treatment. They have public service announcements and education and prevention programs. America is really lagging behind on this particular issue. For example, a few years ago, I spoke at the first International Congress on Internet Addiction Disorders, and that was in Milan, Italy. I mean, there must have been like 15 translators there, just so we could talk to each other. I mean, literally, it was a world congress, all expressing what we're seeing in our respective countries. And really the main point became, America wasn't acknowledging this quick enough or fast enough. This month I'm going to-

August Brice: Why, though? Why aren't we? Why aren't we?

Kimberly Young: Well, we're conservatives. I mean, we also don't have a mandatory healthcare system. China.

August Brice: So it all ties in.

Kimberly Young: For example, we don't have a government-based healthcare system that does this, so it's really from the ground up. It's a grass root efforts to get any disorder, I think, acknowledged. And certainly we still are trying to figure out alcoholism or drug dependence in our country, and how to treat that. So internet addiction becomes less important. You also have lobbyists that certainly don't want to hear that internet addiction is a real problem, because it obviously cuts into sales. But much like Phillip Morris and the nicotine industry, we went for years knowing in the research that nicotine was addictive, yet we glamorized it, we had Joe Camel catering to teenagers, lots of movie stars smoking all the time. But it wasn't until a class action lawsuit came about that really we started changing our norms and our values about smoking. Same thing with alcoholism. There was lots of research that cited alcoholism as a real problem, but it really wasn't until Betty Ford got up and said, "I'm an alcoholic," that was the tipping point. She was so respected, and then it became real. We had a face to it. So I think we're still waiting for that tipping point in America, and certainly you have a lot of political reasons why it doesn't get as acknowledged as maybe other additions, but when you look at the history of other addictions, it took them a long time too to get acknowledged.

August Brice: Well, we're still rolling with tobacco. I just saw the PSAs that the tobacco companies are paying for, saying that they actually design cigarettes to be addictive, and this is obviously a warning to youth. So we're still trying to break through. And I want to know right now, how can we prevent internet addiction?

Kimberly Young: Well, one of the things that I was intrigued by, especially when I was at this world congress, was what Korea is doing. They've probably been the leader out of any country that I've seen on how they're trying to deal with this. They do a great deal of prevention. At young ages, like right when kindergarten, first grade, second grade, with kids directly in school systems, and I found that to be very proactive about it. Like if you can educate kids to find a balance, a healthy use, kind of like food addiction. I talk a great deal about digital diet, digital nutrition. I compare it to treating food, because oftentimes, we're looking at moderated and healthy use of technology, so if you go back to that premise and you teach young children. Technology's good. Nobody's saying it's bad, it's very useful and productive, but you don't want to play games, you don't want to look at porn, you don't want to just make your whole life sedentary around computers. You want to actually be also active in physical education, eating well, exercising. And so that's a lot of what I think we could be applying here in America as well.

August Brice: Well, sure, that's what I talk about at Tech Wellness, just balance with our technology. I love the diet. It makes perfect sense, but how really can we incorporate that, because it's, like I said, the smartphone's the Oreo cookie of technology? It's just so delicious and fun, and it's designed, even, I think, more than sugar, to suck us in and make us feel good. So really, how do we deal with that? I've heard make it a gray screen, make it not as interesting. Okay, that's one thing. Well, you have a great program for kids, the 3-6-9-12, which I think is awesome. I want you to talk about that for a minute. But now that we're faced with it and we've already drank the Kool-Aid, how can we taper back and do so happily?

Kimberly Young: Well, for any one of us, we need to recognize our own behavior. When you're talking about, like, just smartphones, I don't really consider that as much of an addiction as just chronic checking. It's more of a compulsive sort of behavior where we chronically look at our phones, we need our phones around us. I did a TED Talk a few years ago. One of the things that came out of that for me was, why don't we all do a 48-hour digital detox, where we plug our phone in, we don't look at it for 48 hours at least?

August Brice: You're speaking to me. I love it.

Kimberly Young: And just seeing how we feel with that, just sit with that. Now granted, if you're a surgeon on call, that might not be the time to do it, but most of us could really live without the technology for at least a few days, and then experience it. Instead of going to look at your phone, there's voids that we fill. You're sitting at the doctor's office, you check your phone. We don't know how to be bored anymore. We don't know how to be in solitude without media all around us. So I say take that time and observe, and then when you do pick up your phone, have very clear boundaries. Use it maybe an hour in the morning, then put it back. Maybe at five o'clock you check it again. Most of the time we are just mindlessly checking our phone. Oh, let's see what's a new post on Facebook or Instagram or whatever we're looking at. It's not like we really need to be doing this kind of activity all the time, and if we're more aware of our behavior, it's sort of like the choices you make with eating. It comes right down to it. You can eat the healthy fruits and vegetables, you can eat a bag of donuts. That's your choice. So you can have a good balanced use of technology. I'm not saying eliminate it. It's a moderated and controlled use versus binging on it and being more chronic with it. And that becomes more about self-awareness, and self-restraint to some extent. I mean, for most of us, we don't suffer from a true addiction. I'm not talking about the video gamers that spend 12 to 18 hours a day gaming and sit there so long they get blood clots in their legs. I'm not talking about that. Then that's more treatable. That's more inpatient care, looking at other dynamics going on with the client, depression, social anxiety, those kind of things. But for your average user, I think it's just raising awareness and kind of making a habit out of not checking it.

August Brice: And so that helps us not cross the line and become quote-unquote "addicted"?

Kimberly Young: It does. I mean, to me, there's a model that I've used in most of the talks I've given, we have to disconnect to reconnect. And so really, when we disconnect from our devices, we get to talk to each other face-to-face. I mean, the greatest sin I see is the family sitting around the kitchen table at dinnertime on their devices, modeling that behavior. Kids are on their portables, and everybody's not talking. I mean, the best thing I used to do as a kid was go out with my parents on a Sunday drive, and we'd talk, because there was no distractions. And now everybody brings their devices in the car, and nobody's really talking to each other anymore. So I think just getting back to basics, having tech-free time every night at home, very important kind of things to practice.

August Brice: There's so many health benefits of that, and I grew up the same way you did. There weren't devices. And so we did that with our children. We made sure that we had three dinners at home a week, that was very popular back then, connecting the family. And of course, there was never a device allowed at dinner, and still in my home, that's what we do, we drop them. We drop them when we come in. It just feels good for me, but I don't know how we can convince other families that that could actually bring them benefits.

Kimberly Young: Well, I think like anything else, the more education, the more public service announcements we can promote, because right now it's still too new. There's more messages on using it with technology of schools. Like when I worked with a couple of state governments, and the problem they have is they give so many dollars for technology in the classroom, they don't really want to say it's addictive. Yet they're finding that that's what kids are doing, is they're playing games and they're downloading all kinds of things that have nothing to do with their homework or school. So it becomes a problematic issue for teachers. So we really need more of an educational component for parents, I think, to say hey look, this isn't just a benign tool. There's ramifications to it. It's useful, but to a point. We also have to practice all these other good habits. I consider it much harder to be a parent today, because like you said, we didn't have the devices when we were kids. There was nothing like this. And so now you're competing as a parent against all these devices, but the research, disturbingly so, is showing how children, like infants now, have access to technology, and it's creating social problems. They're more isolated. They're not playing in teams and groups. They don't know how to learn how to do face-to-face conversation. Or they're obese because they're sedentary in front of computers and not exercising. I mean, we're just starting to see some very significant problems the younger children start on technology.

August Brice: Well, what you're saying is, we're training them to become addicted.

Kimberly Young: Well, we're encouraging it, yes.

August Brice: I asked you this earlier, and I'm not sure I was clear, but how do you know for sure when it's crossed the line, and how do you know when there's still hope to pull back?

Kimberly Young: Well again, like any addition, how do you know? Well, until it gets bad. How do you know somebody's a social drinker versus an alcoholic? How do you know? You don't until it gets bad enough, till the guy gets a DWI or has a car accident or it's significant. And that's usually the same thing with any other addiction, until it's significant, there's consequences, there are clearly-defined sets of behaviors that are habitual and now adaptive, then it's addiction. That's how you know. There's no big ... when somebody hits rock bottom, hopefully they'll want to dig themselves out of that hole, but even then, I meet addicts every day, whether they're alcoholics or internet addicts, that are living a great deep denial, rationalizing their behavior. They don't want to give it up. Quite frankly, they like it. I meet a lot of alcoholics that are saying, "I like my alcohol. I'm not giving it up for you or my wife or anybody else." So until somebody really wants to change, they can't.

August Brice: Right. I had a friend who's a gambling addict, and he put himself on the no-casino list. So his face is posted in security at all the casinos, and he is not allowed in. He actually went into a casino, and they escorted him out. That got me thinking, it's almost as though we have to have these super-critical, strong boundaries, if we're on the edge and we realize that we are. And that's hard to do.

Kimberly Young: Well, yes. I think that's really the point. Until you're ready to look at your own behavior and be self-aware about any of it, I mean whether we're talking about food addictions, internet addiction, how much do you drink? I have a lot of doctor friends, and they say we always ask how much alcohol do you consume in a week, and we always, like, double that, whatever the person says on medical exams, because everybody kind of tends to underestimate how many drinks they might consume in a day. So I think we all have to take accounting for our own behavior. Whether it's the internet or alcohol, it's no different. We just have to do that. It's not easy, though.

August Brice: Before we go, I want to talk about your Restore Recovery program, because I feel like it's a toolkit that a family or a neighborhood could access and actually make sure that if somebody was on the edge, that they brought them back. Do you see your Restore Recovery Toolkit that way?

Kimberly Young: I do. A few years ago, I designed it, because one, one of my roles is as an educator. I travel around the country. I do workshops at hospitals, addiction clinics, community mental health centers, teaching how to assess and treat internet addiction. And right now, because it's still so new, unlike other disorders, there's no certification or standard of care in the practitioner side of it. People can hang out a shingle and say yeah, I'm an internet addiction expert, but they might not have any training or have done any research in the area, which I think is a disservice. So I created Restore Recovery as the first empirically-based training program. It goes from the beginning, how do we assess a problem? What's the context? What's the problematic application? Is it pornography, is it gaming, is it shopping online? What is it? How is it accessed? Then looking at other related factors. Is the person also suffering from psychological depression or anxiety? Then it looks at actual treatment. How do you change somebody's rationalizations? How do you attack those kind of distortions that justify the behavior? How do you make observable changes of behavior? What are your goals? How do you prevent relapse, especially in the age of technology, where you're surrounded by it? So the program primarily is really training for therapists, but it takes it at an introductory level, assuming the therapist doesn't have a lot of knowledge into the technology and the internet, but basically could build on. There's videos, there's three streaming videos that take you through these kind of steps. And Restore's actually an acronym for the steps, like R stands for something, E stands for something, and you go through this information and treatment process. It can also be used as a self-help tool, because we've seen how people have been able to buy it, use it as a family. It spurs conversation. Where do we access the technology? If you have, like, three devices at home and a laptop and a desktop or something, I mean, how do you harness that in? Have maybe one area of the home, where you just only access your technology. Families get talking about how much time they're spending on the internet. I mean, it's a great ability to discuss it through the program, because it is elementary enough that, really, families or a therapist wanting to learn more about the process can learn from it. It includes the assessment tools, handouts, pamphlets, all kinds of things to really ... you can apply right at the get-go.

August Brice: So families or counselors at schools? I mean, I think really what we're talking about is addiction prevention.

Kimberly Young: Well, we are. And again, just some training in it, because right now there's nothing. When we talk about standard of practice, I shouldn't be able to hang out a shingle and say I'm a gambling addiction expert if I'm not, if I haven't had any training in that. So right now, too many people are starting to say they know about internet addiction, but have no training. What I've been trying to work with, especially with, say, governing bodies, the American Psychological Association because I'm a psychologist, but what is the standard of training here? What's the standard of care? But then that does trickle down to, we can also apply it to a self-help focus, if you will, where families and just spouses, partners, anybody with a problem can really benefit from this.

August Brice: Oh, I'm so glad that you're doing this, because I would imagine professionally you're also working on a certification program, correct, for everyone else, or somebody's working on that?

Kimberly Young: Yes. Yes. But until it's legitimized in terms of insurance reimbursement, we can't push all that forward as quickly as we'd like to.

August Brice: Do you have a group of people that you can currently recommend?

Kimberly Young: I don't, but I'm sure the American Psychological Association or whatever keeps track of referrals. I mean, that's just not my focus, is referrals.

August Brice: And what about your Net Addiction Center?

Kimberly Young: Oh, we do treatment, so people come to us. We provide anything from individual counseling, family counseling, marital counseling. We do some inpatient work, depending on the situation and needs of the person.

August Brice: And when do you recommend inpatient care? At what point?

Kimberly Young: Well obviously, if the person's gotten to the point that they're not functioning at all in their day-to-day life. For example, most of the people that are hospitalized are video game addicts, young men in their 20s, been kicked out of maybe two or three colleges, living at home in their parents' basement, can't hold a job, won't do anything except game for 12 hours a day.

August Brice: Critical?

Kimberly Young: They're very critical at this point, and they suffer from social anxiety and many other problems, so really they need to be stabilized. They need to go through some detox. They need to go through, I think, deeper evaluation, certainly, than let's say, on the other extreme, maybe a marital couple. Dad's been downloading pornography on the internet. Mom wants to leave. They're trying to save their marriage, but they're coming in more on an outpatient basis to try and figure out what those dynamics are that drive that behavior.

August Brice: Okay. I love this, because we're creating awareness for everyone. And of course, we have your test on our site, so if you are curious and you're wondering, or if you are going to take it on behalf of someone else and put in their behavior, you can do that. We've got the little quiz on We invite you to take it, and then we have some solutions, and of course, we point you to Dr. Young's books and, of course, the Restore Recovery program. I'm so excited about this. Thank you so much, Dr. Young. Oh, and before we go, I'd like to ask everyone, so I'm going to ask you, do you have a guilty technology pleasure?

Kimberly Young: You know, no. I thought about that, and I thought well, not really. I feel like I'm in front of my computer, writing and answering emails and dealing with my own students as a college professor. I don't find I have any kind of guilty pleasure. I mean ...

August Brice: No shopping?

Kimberly Young: No, no. I would say probably I check my Facebook and I check Yelp, like if I know we're traveling somewhere to a new city and I want to check out the restaurants and the menus and things. I would say that's the main thing, and maps. I'm always amazed. As a kid, I had the TripTik from AAA, and we'd get in a new state, you'd flip over the thing and it all in like gold highlighter, and now I'm amazed. I just punch into my phone, and boom, it gets me where I need to go. So I probably use that the most.

August Brice: I'll take it. It's good. It's actually great, because it's so true. Maps are delicious, aren't they, compared to what we went through when we were kids with those binders? Oh, thank you so much, Dr. Young. Have a wonderful day, and we'll talk soon.

Kimberly Young: Thank you for having me, really. All right, take care. Bye-bye.

August Brice: Okay, you too. Bye-bye.

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