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Bannon Attorney Grills Committee Staffer On Timing Of Subpoena Deadline; Republicans Praise Pence For Defending Constitution. Aired 12:30-1p ET

Aired July 20, 2022 - 12:30   ET


REP. TIM RYAN, (R) OHIO SENATE CANDIDATE: Because people, you know, know he's not a good candidate and he's not from the state, so Ohioans don't want to give him money.

ABBY PHILLIP, CNN HOST: I do have to ask you, you have a -- you have an ad out, where you're touting the support from a bunch of conservative television hosts, including Tucker Carlson and people like Maria Bartiromo, who in your -- people in your party say are threats to democracy. Why? Why is that?

RYAN: Well, I think it's important for Ohioans or people who just watch Fox News to know that I am an independent voice, to know that I've taken on Democrats, I've taken on Republicans, I've voted against Barack Obama on his trade agenda, because I disagreed with it. It was bad for Ohio. And I agreed with Donald Trump on his trade agenda, because it was good for Ohio. And I think it's important for Ohioans to know that and there's many Ohioans that if they hear that, from, you know, some of those folks on Fox News, I think it's -- it opens the door for us to have a broader conversation.

People want to heal. People want an age of reconciliation and reform. And that's really what we're providing here. You got to work across the aisle. I'm one of the top most bipartisan people in this Congress. We got to heal, we got to move forward. And we got to find issues that we can agree on. And whoever is touting that for me, we're going to make sure Ohioans hear about it.

PHILLIP: So Ohio's now, I mean, more or less a pretty red state. There are not that many Democrats in the Senate from states like that. One of them would be Joe Manchin, who we were talking about earlier. Do you see yourself in, you know, a Joe Manchin mold if you were to be elected to the Senate?

RYAN: I'm going to be probably in the mold of a Sherrod Brown, who is focused on working class issues, jobs, wages, pensions, reducing health care costs, fighting bad trade deals and reinvesting back into the Forgotten communities. That's where I'm going to be.

Now, look, Joe Manchin, is 1000 times better in the United States Senate than another Josh Hawley or Ted Cruz. So while we may have some disagreements, you know, it's important to recognize that he's still a vote for a lot of the initiatives that are for working class people, and we have our disagreements. And the reality is, I think, Senator Manchin, when he talks about deficit reduction, you know, we can't keep putting things on the credit card, those are important discussions for us to have.

And just because I'm a Democrat, doesn't mean I'm not for like we got a balanced budget, we have a $30 trillion debt, we have trillion dollar year deficits, even though they're coming down. These are long term problems that again, just like the environment, we got to steward the environment to the next generation, we can't put all this on the credit card and give it to the next generation, interest rates are going up.

So if you're concerned about investing into, you know, programs that are important to lift people up and reinvest and help us out to compete China, there's going to be less of that money, if we're paying huge interest rates on the debt that we've run up. So this is a legitimate thing. So I appreciate that Senator Manchin brings that stuff up, disagree with him on the environmental stuff, disagree with him on the climate stuff, but I'd much rather have him than another Ted Cruz trying to overthrow the democracy.

PHILLIP: All right, Congressman Tim Ryan, thank you so much for joining us today.

RYAN: Thank you, I appreciate it.

PHILLIP: And I just want to note to our viewers that JD Vance was invited to come on to show this week, but he was unavailable.

But up ahead for us, Day Three of Steve Bannon's trial is underway with prosecutors putting a key January 6 investigator on the witness stand.



PHILLIP: The judge overseeing Steve Bannon's trial already today warning that this case should not become a political circus. When the trial restarts after the launch, the defense will continue cross examining its first witness. Now, CNN Political Correspondent Sara Murray is live outside of the courtroom covering this trial on a sweltering day. Sara, what have we learned so far today?

SARA MURRAY, CNN POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, look, there was a pretty clear warning from the judge earlier today that he was not going to tolerate a lot of politics being injected into this. He said, I do not intend this to become a political case, a political circus, a forum for partisan politics. So he was clear on that.

Now, the first witness today is Kristin Amerling. She's a House staffer. She's general counsel for the House Select Committee, and the prosecutors really wanted to establish with her that Bannon never asked for an extension of the date for his subpoena. He never expressed that he was somehow confused, about how he should handle this subpoena, and that he wasn't taking any steps to begin complying with it. So that's what the prosecution was trying to set up with this witness earlier today.

On the cross examination, Bannon's attorney had a little bit more of a difficult time gaining traction, you know, he appeared to be stopped by the judge at one point from one of his lines of questioning, you know, he was asking the witness what they wanted Bannon's testimony for. And ultimately, you know, getting the witness to sort of say that the work of the committee was ongoing.

When they previewed their defense yesterday, they sort of laid out this notion that, you know, maybe the deadline for the subpoena wasn't hard and fast that they were still negotiating with Bannon's attorneys. So that's a little bit what he's been getting at so far. As you said, they took a break for lunch and we should see more from Kristin Amerling after that break.

PHILLIP: All right, Sara Murray, thank you so much.

Now, I want to bring in Elie Honig. He's a former Assistant U.S. Attorney for the Southern District of New York and a CNN Legal Analyst. So Elie Bannon's team is arguing that the select committee has been acting politically. But meanwhile, take a listen to what Bannon was doing and saying outside of the court yesterday.


STEVE BANNON, FORMER WHITE HOUSE CHIEF STRATEGIST: I challenge Bennie Thompson today to have the courage to come to this courthouse. If he's going to charge somebody with a crime, he's got to be man enough to show up here.


PHILLIP: They may want to talk to their client, is all of this really undermining his team's legal strategy?

ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: I think it is. Abby, I think Steve Bannon is learning that there's a big difference between being a criminal defendant in a trial on the one hand and yapping outside the courtroom courthouse on the steps or talking into a podcast microphone on the other hand.


You can say whatever you want in those latter contexts, but inside the court, as Sara just reported, this judge is running a very tight ship. No judge ever wants their trials to become circuses. And Steve Bannon clearly was hoping and intending to do that. And when you go outside the courthouse and you make statements like Steve Bannon just made, A, they can be used against you just like the warning goes. And B they sort of undermined Bannon's defense, because if his defense is, oh, I meant to comply. I was just ready to negotiate on the one hand, but then you're outside the courthouse railing against the committee. On the other hand, those are contradictory.

PHILLIP: Yeah, they certainly seem to be. In her opening statement, the prosecutor in this case, Amanda Vaughn, framed it this way, "This is not a case of a mistake. The defendant didn't get the date wrong. He didn't get confused on where to go. He didn't get stuck on a broken-down metro car. He just refused to follow the rules." What do you make of that strategy on the part of the prosecution? Basically, it's cut and dry that he just did not comply.

HONIG: That's exactly what prosecutors aim to do, Abby, in any trial, you want to keep it all facts, all simple, all straightforward for the jury. And they're anticipating Steve Bannon's defense there, his defense of, oh, I meant to comply, or I meant to at least negotiate, their response from the prosecution is, well, then why didn't he? Why did he never actually engage in negotiate with the committee?

Why are we here nine months later, and he's still never produced a single shred of documentation? So I think that was an effective line of argument. And I think it's something that Steve Bannon is going to have a hard time overcoming.

HONIG: And now, to how this maybe ends, it seems like the Bannon team is trying to hang this trial on this idea that the jury can be nullified, that they can produce a hung jury. How likely do you think that is?

HONIG: So jury nullification is a phenomenon, that happens sometimes in our system. And generally, it refers to any situation where a jury as a whole or even one juror decides, I'm just going to throw out the facts in the law here. And I'm going to come back not guilty just because of some outside personal belief. It's sort of the prosecutors nightmare. It's something we always try to guard against.

Now, juries do have the right to do that. Judges don't tell them that and lawyers are not allowed to argue that, but it does happen sometimes. And it seems to me, Bannon's best hope is, I don't think there's any real chance he gets all 12 jurors here to do that. But if he can grab one or two and create a hung jury and a mistrial, then that will be a victory of sorts for Steve Bannon.

PHILLIP: All right, Elie Honig, thanks for breaking all of that down for us.

HONIG: Thanks, Abby.

PHILLIP: And coming up next, Vice President Mike Pence all smiles during a visit to Capitol Hill today.



PHILLIP: Former Vice President Mike Pence was back in Washington today for a Republican Study Committee breakfast at the Capitol Hill Club. Let's go straight to Capitol Hill where CNN's Melanie Zanona has been following it all. So Melanie, Pence, it seems to be on the receiving end actually have quite a bit of praise in this meeting. What are you learning?

MELANIE ZANONA, CNN CAPITOL HILL REPORTER: Yeah, despite this growing rift between Donald Trump and Mike Pence, the former Vice President received a very warm reception from Republicans here on Capitol Hill today. Congressman Don Bacon said that people were essentially encouraging Pence to run for president in 2024, saying quote, I hope he has a big voice in the party.

You had Congressman Dan Newhouse saying that there were multiple references to a potential Pence presidential bid. And Andy Barr and other Congressman Republican from Kentucky said that members were actually thinking Pence for his actions on January 6, when he oversaw the certification of the 2020 election. And Barr called him a moral force who "is a true leader who has the respect of Republicans."

Now, Pence did not offer any hints about his plans for his political future, said he was solely focused on helping Republicans in the midterms. But it is no secret, Abby, that Pence is exploring a potential run for the White House and maintaining these key congressional alliances can help with something like that. But this is also notable because it comes on the eve of potentially the last primetime hearing from the January 6 Select Committee, which has already detailed some pretty stunning details about Trump's pressure campaign on Pence and others to overturn the election. And we're also still waiting a decision from the Select Committee about whether they're going to ask Pence himself to come speak to the panel in the coming days. Abby.

PHILLIP: All right. Melanie, thank you so much. We're back here with the panel. So obviously, Pence is not making any secret. He has political ambitions. What is interesting, though, is that this seems like Republicans are giving him a lot of encouraging signs, even some of the ones like Kevin McCarthy, who has tried to be very aligned with former President Trump?

JONATHAN SWAN, NATIONAL POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT, AXIOS: Yeah, and the important thing to bear in mind is, this isn't sort of the meeting of the squish caucus. This is the Republican Study Committee, which is the largest bloc of house conservatives. It's not the Freedom Caucus, not the most conservative but they're conservative. And he received a very warm welcome.

I was told by two sources in the room that Representative Chip Roy said, I want to get the quote right. He stood up and said to Pence, "I just want to thank you for defending our Constitution. I'm happy to shout it from Mar-a-Lago to Bedminster. I just want you to know how grateful we are." I mean, that's a shot straight at Trump. And Chip Roy is a conservative. He's not, again, this is not some moderate squishy member.


PHILLIP: And he -- Chip Roy, if I remember correctly was kind of into the whole election was stolen thing at the beginning.

SWAN: He was very open to the idea of trying to find routes to avoid (ph). However, on the crucial question of certification, he voted to certify,

PHILLIP: He voted to certify, yeah.

SWAN: Yeah.

PHILLIP: But Pence -- what Pence is doing is going to be very hard to do. This is not a Republican Party that is in any significant measure, ready to throw Trump over the edge of the boat?

TIA MITCHELL, WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT, THE ATLANTA JOURNAL- CONSTITUTION: Right, and that's what I find interesting. You know, it's one thing, what Republicans will say to each other. Republican elected officials will say to each other in a closed room where they hope it doesn't lead to people like Jonathan.

PHILLIP: They have to know that it will?

MITCHELL: Right. They knew they -- but, you know, it's another thing, what are they willing to say, to their most conservative constituents? What are they willing to say in front of a camera or a podcast, with the crowd that is more likely to want to hear from Tucker Carlson or Steve Bannon than perhaps a member of Congress? And that's the problem that Pence is going to have when it comes time to run for President if he so chooses. He doesn't have to convince the people in the middle or the Democrats. He's got to convince those members of the Republican Party who by and large, still believe in the big lie.

PHILLIP: Yeah, and I mean, of course, the January 6 committee, as Melanie noted, the final summer hearing will be tomorrow. Pence has been talked about, but not seen or heard from this committee, despite his starring role in what transpired.

SABRINA RODRIGUEZ, WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, POLITICO: Yeah, I think it'll be interesting to see. I mean, that will be a game changer as if Pence has to actually go and publicly testify about ...

PHILLIP: Or even privately testify.

RODRIGUEZ: Or privately testify and things come out to light with the public of him having talked about these things, and speaking against the president, because he has told that line. I mean, it's not that he is out publicly campaigning for House Republicans and big rallies criticizing the president, are doing that frequently. A lot of the campaign activity that we've seen him doing leading up to today, that meeting has been smaller fundraisers, closed door meetings, where it kind of gives some cover for the Republicans that are expressing support for him.

PHILLIP: Yeah, a lot of Republicans saying a lot of things in that room, behind closed doors that they may not say to the reporters, waiting outside.

But up ahead for us next, Ukraine's First Lady makes her first plea to Congress during her high profile trip to the United States.


[12:57:05] PHILLIP: And topping our political radar, just in to CNN a bipartisan deal to make it harder to steal elections. Today, Senator is unveiling important potential changes to election law. It's a direct response with the January 6 insurrection. The reforms will update the Electoral Count Act and are the result of months and months of bipartisan negotiation. The proposal still needs to clear both the House and the Senate.

And CNN spoke to Goldman Sachs CEO David Solomon about the state of the economy. He thinks inflation hasn't peaked yet. And when asked about a recession, says this.


DAVID SOLOMON, GOLDMAN SACHS CEO: I think it's uncertain. I think that you have to, at this point in time, recognize that the possibility of a recession, is much higher than it's been for quite some time. You have to be a little bit more conservative, a little bit thoughtful about what if. And that's by the way, that's advice that that we give the biggest companies that's the advice you give the smallest companies.


PHILLIP: And Ukraine Ukraine's First Lady addressed Congress last hour about her country's ongoing war with Russia. She gave a personal plea for America's assistance to fight the terror that they are facing.


OLENA ZELENSKA, UKRAINE'S FIRST LADY (through translator): America unfortunately knows from its own experience what terrorist attacks are, help us to stop this terror against Ukrainians. This is what I'm asking for and what my husband is asking for, not as a presidential couple, but as parents and children of our parents.


PHILLIP: Donald Trump notches a big victory in Maryland. CNN projects that Dan Cox will win the Republican governor primary in Maryland. The Trump backed Cox, the current Governor Larry Hogan's pick, Kelly Schulz. Of note though the Democratic Governors Association actually spent more than a million dollars on ads supporting Cox and highlighting Trump's endorsement, presuming the Cox would be an easier opponent in November. CNN has not yet projected a winner on the Democratic side.

And Transportation Secretary Pete Buttigieg, quick to dismiss concerns about President Biden's mental fitness after a Republican in -- from Texas, Troy Nehls questioned him about Biden's fall from a bike and other gas. The unexpected confrontation comes several hours into the transportation Secretary's hearing on Capitol Hill.


REP. TROY NEHLS, (R) TEXAS: He falls off bicycle. Even at the White House Easter celebration, the Easter Bunny had to guide him back into his safe place. Cue cards that say sit here or end of speech which he actually states, that is, if he stays awake. So my question for you sir, have you spoken with any other cabinet members about implementing the 25th amendment on President Biden?

PETE BUTTIGIEG, UNITED STATES SECRETARY OF TRANSPORTATION: First of all, I'm glad to have a president who can ride a bicycle.



PHILLIP: And John Fetterman today giving his very first interview since suffering a stroke, the Democrat who is running for Pennsylvania Senate seat is telling the Pittsburgh Post that he is, "feeling really good and has nothing to hide about his health." He adds that he's 100% ready for a tough campaign and plans to get back on the trail 'very soon."

And thanks for joining INSIDE POLITICS. Ana Cabrera will pick up our coverage right now.