 becomes less about satisfying one’s own biological drive and more about the gift of providing pleasure to one’s life partner. My question for Justin is, does a similar change occur in same gender relationships, and is it different for women than for men.
Note that I have chosen to create a word that does not expressly relate to sex as to gender, which may reduce some of the heat on this issue.
One other point. I am not the perfect person to do this post. In fact, I think I have more questions than answers. I know I will not say or convey the right things at times.
But, I care about this subject. I hurt for those who struggle. So, in my imperfection, I want to discuss this in the best way that I know how.I am hoping this will help others to begin to be brave and to figure things out as well.
I apologize in advance for the many things I might say or convey that do not ring the right tone for our readers. I promise that I am trying to be merciful. Our Father knows how much I want that.
OOPS, edited out the word. “Homogender” as in a relationship between people of the same gender.
PS I fully expect to learn more from our readers and Justin than you/they all will learn from me. I am a person in process.
On its face, that seems like a pretty clear verse (and I think it is in terms of the act being sinful). However, the reasoning behind it is potentially less clear, because it seems to me there are two possible reasons why the act is deemed sinful. The problem could be 1) two people of the same gender are engaging in any kind of sexual activity, or 2) God’s design of the human body is being violated by this particular sex act. Based solely on the verse in Leviticus, either or both of these could be true.
My main point is that, if option 1 is the reason, then the only thing being forbidden in this verse is same-gender sexual activity. However, if 2 is the reason, then this verse could place very tight restrictions even on heterosexual sex, as any act that goes against the natural function of a particular organ would be unacceptable. This would eliminate oral sex, anal sex, etc. It would certainly cramp Mark Driscoll’s style!
Note that I’m not advocating for either of these two options. I’m just pointing out that those of us who believe gay sex is sinful should know WHY we think that (beyond “the Bible says so”), and be honest about the possible ramifications of our reasoning. I hope I’m making sense here.
This brings up an interesting question as I do see lying as an orientation when it comes to such things as NPD. It is ingrained. The very few with NPD who seek therapy have to deal with this orientation and make a conscious effort not to lie about even little things. The research on NPD says it is usually formed by around age 7. That might even be earlier than understanding a sexual orientation? Not sure.
I think one of the struggles that I have with this conversation regards the proper place and use of the scriptures in the argumentation.
On the one hand, I feel the tendency to take scripture at face value. “The Bible means what it says.” Its truth is literal, inerrant, infallible, in all things. But I find that this position has a tendency to bread a sense of certainty, inflexibility, and lack of humility that makes the conversation take on an aggressive quality. It leads to a lack of empathy.
But I also have trouble with that approach to scripture. I still recognize its truth, but grapple with the fact that it was written by human hands (although divinely inspired), interpreted and re-interpreted in various and sundry ways across a long historical record, and in the end must be filtered through the imperfect, fallible, error-prone, limited, fully human mind of the reader – me.
It’s easy to feel right in our convictions. And that only gets stronger when we have others rise to defend ideas we share. But the diversity of opinion here (and everywhere) takes the wind out of that sail if we bother to look.
It tends to make me move from arguing about what is right or true (in an ultimate sense) to what is fair. Given that we all could be wrong, given that we’re all flawed and imperfect, what is the fair thing to do?
…And there have been studies done on high-functioning autistic/Asperger’s/autism spectrum children that show they often have an ingrained AVERSION to lying. The neurotypical “control” children in these studies plotted how they would lie and had fun doing it, while the autistic children showed distress at the very idea. As someone who is possibly “on the spectrum,” I can testify from personal experience that I cannot remember ever telling an outright lie as a child. Even now, as an adult, I still think that, besides being sinful, lying is just too hard. Too many variables, too hard to keep the story straight, too much potential fallout. Just too much d*** work.
The human mind is a very complicated and mysterious thing.
I like the fairenss question. Which brings up the point-is fairness a virtue that is stressed in Scripture? I see things that seem to point to both yes and no.
Perhaps by remembering that it your own understanding of scripture?
You are to be commended for braving this topic. It desperately needs to be civilly discussed in the Church.
If only you new how frequently my understanding of certain Scripture verses has changed over the years. That is why I always make it a point to read lots and lots of teaching and opinions from all sides. I am constantly a person in process.
Thanks for the encouragement. I need it.
As much as it would be more comfortable for us conservative evangelicals to live in a black and white, easy answer world, it just isn’t so.
I’ve sort of “gentled” my opinions recently about homosexuality. I see it as one of many sexual sins that humanity struggles with continually. And yet, I deplore far more the hateful and judgmental stance I see fellow Christians take when discussing this issue.
I long for a day when grace and love is what the church is known for, not self-righteousness and hypocrisy.
Thank you for taking on a painful, confusing conversation with understanding, honesty and grace. How refreshing.
1. There are usually far too many “straight” people trying to have a discussion and speculate and speak on how or why a person is gay.  I am African-American and I often find it difficult when white-Americans try to tell me how I should feel about issues that affect my culture; or about how I should feel when there is inequality or injustice. It is almost impossible to convey to a person what that is like when it is inherent in the history of your culture in a particular country. As far as I can remember, I have been black. I will never EVER know what it is like to be white. I can only imagine but there simply is no point of reference. But when I am around others who are not like me, I notice that I think differently, I respond differently, I take things in differently. My experience is remarkably different than theirs in many ways, although, it is not uncommon for us to have a shared experience. Yet, there was a time a person was to blame for simply bearing brown skin, and yet, what fault of theirs was that?  That they would be hated and ridiculed, and oppressed for it? Yet, he never stopped making black people. I honestly think some day, in the same way that Scripture was used to enslave blacks in this country and now we see that as a terrible mockery of the character of God, I feel that we will come to that same understanding when it comes to people who are gay.
2. I can recall my earliest memories of being attracted to little boys. I can even recall as a child feeling “something” that I couldn’t identify when I was around boys. I cannot honestly ever say that I CHOSE those feelings. I only could recognize that I had them and that the response was autonomic. When I hear gay people talk about their experiences with attraction, it is very much the same as my own. That same excitement I felt as a pubescent teen towards men is the same excitement and instant reaction that many feel towards the same-sex.
3. Because I believe in the inherent and in-born nature of sexual attraction, then I have to wonder: If God so hates homosexuality and homoseuxal acts, then why did he make people with these attractions? Why also would God make such people, but then require that they experience a LIFETIME of extreme lonliness, unmet needs, lack of sexual fulfillment, intimacy, family and all other gifts given to mankind to accompany us on this journey of life? Why would God be so cruel? Does God take pleasure in making people with a certain sexual/physicological chemistry, and then forbidding them the option to be loved, touched, or even made love too? Wouldn’t it have been better for God to have taken away the sexual desire of such precious ones if that is his desire that they not ever know intimacy in a loving and consentual context?
4. Does God have a habit of making people broken and choosing to allow such great suffering just so that he can be glorified?
5. If God doesn’t make people born with brains wired in this way, then how can we see that God makes people born with both sexual organs, and a host