 opposing team who get into those terraces or stands and may cause trouble. It is understandable to want to tackle that problem. However, legislating for a Coleraine versus Larne game that happens be all-ticket is like taking a sledgehammer to crack a nut.
We would love a crowd-control problem.
We have to be mindful of the genesis of the regulations. What are we trying to deal with? Is there a problem? There can be issues with crowd control and who handles it. If offences are committed, how are offenders handed over to the proper authority? However, if there is no wholesale problem, I do not think that there is a need for such broad legislation. The legislation should be focused on what we are trying to stop, rather than preventing what might happen.
We are certainly aware that there have not been problems to the extent that we have seen in England and Wales. We are grateful for that. There have, however, been well-documented incidents. Your colleague Mr O’Dowd has asked for a list of those for the Justice Committee. The Minister will write to him, and we will be happy to copy that to this Committee.
The ticket-touting measures are aimed at segregated matches to support safety. If the Committee wants to offer views on whether we have got it right —
I understand that, but which games will you segregate? When you identify the games that you want to segregate, that is where your proposals should be targeted. There is no segregation at most games. You may have it at big UEFA Cup or international games, but you do not have it at Irish League games.
We have talked to our justice colleagues about ticketing. Some games here are regarded as contentious, and the police may recommend that those are all-ticket. Our intention, whether we have expressed it well or not, is to look at those types of games.
I understand that. There are segregation issues when Linfield play Glentoran, for example, or when Derry City play Linfield in the Setanta Cup, but ticket prices are not affected. There is no issue of someone having five tickets for the Derry end and selling those on to Linfield fans for twice the price. It is not about the price; the issue is that people have to be kept separate. I feel that the legislation may be over the top in that area.
We are happy to look at that to ensure that it is targeted properly. It is about those situations in which there could be dangers if fans are not segregated properly. We will be happy to listen to any further observations from the Committee on that.
I wish to resurrect one specific question. We suggested to you that lasers should be banned from grounds. I do not think that you have responded to that suggestion. I have seen a laser used at a match, and I would not like to see it again. Will you address that problem specifically?
There are already provisions concerning the sale of laser pens. The types that could cause injury to people’s eyes are not to be sold. When the Bill was being drafted, our feeling was that other parts of the law covered laser pens. However, the issue has been raised in the Committee for Justice as well, and we will certainly look at it again.
That would be helpful, because it would be a dangerous precedent if the use of laser pens were allowed to develop. If flares are contained in one section of a ground, they can add to the whole spectacle, as can be seen at continental matches. You obviously take a different view. However, lasers, regardless of their strength, should not be brought into football grounds at all.
There were difficulties with flares at the Birmingham City match last night.
Flares were thrown at that match last night. However, at continental matches, a section of the crowd is allowed to let off flares within a controlled section. You get the colours of one team at one end and the colours of the other team at the other end, and it adds to the spectacle. Crowd chanting also adds to the atmosphere. At Auxerre games, one gentleman climbs up with a megaphone and encourages the crowd behind the Auxerre goal to chant, “Allez les bleus”. A guy from Nantes does the same at the far end. There are ways in which the spectacle and atmosphere can be added to. Perhaps we might build little crow’s nests behind the goals and have organised chanting instead of the stuff that we are talking about today.
I am just worried that there could be an issue in distinguishing between what is a safe flare and what is an unsafe flare. However, we will certainly look again at the laser pen provisions.
I support the point about laser pens and Declan’s point about chanting against groups. I appreciate that you have already said that some thought will be given to that, but I just wanted to add my voice. I want to make a small point about banning orders, although I appreciate that this could be a rarity and hard to enforce. A person could be banned from attending designated matches. Should there be a facility for broader bans other than just bans for designated matches?
Are you thinking about any particular sorts of matches?
If a person has a reputation for using any sporting event to cause trouble, should there be a facility for a broader ban than just designated matches? I appreciate that it may be a rarity and hard to enforce, but could there be a situation that we may need to cater for in the legislation?
One thing that we are looking at is whether there would be an opportunity for banning someone from a match outside the jurisdiction if they could cause trouble. There were some competence concerns about extraterritoriality, but we are exploring whether we could draft such a clause. However, if there any further thoughts I am happy to take them.
There may be a rare situation in which a person or a group causes trouble and may need to be banned from a greater list of matches.
The normal way of enforcing banning orders is to require an offender to turn up at a police station when the match is on. I understand that the matches may not be at the same time, but if they are the police station they cannot go to any match, whether designated or not.
If a case were brought to court, a judge may not have the legal gateway to impose a broader sanction than a ban from designated matches.
Do you agree that most of the offences in the Bill are already criminal offences and that many of the other provisions will be difficult to enforce? For example, the definition of being drunk is loose and will be difficult to enforce. Drunkenness will become apparent when a person is disorderly, but that is already a criminal offence. Likewise, offensive chanting is already covered if it incites hatred or causes offence. Will the provisions of the Justice Bill apply if an event is held in a designated ground?
The existing law only goes so far and does not cover certain things that you might want to cover inside a sports ground. For example, the general law on assault would cover the throwing of a missile in a sports ground if the intent was to hit someone, but the intent must be proved. Through the Justice Bill, we are saying that people should not throw objects in sports grounds at all. Likewise, the incitement to hatred provisions could cover some forms of chanting but, again, you have to prove intention and whether the chanting actually incited hatred. Through the Bill we want to ensure that people do not engage in sectarian or offensive chanting when they are in sports grounds.
I take it that your second question referred to concerts and music events that take place in sports grounds. The provisions would not apply to those events; they would only apply to regulated matches.
Colin, banning orders can stretch across more than one specific game. Currently, they can be placed on the games of specific teams. In the Justice Bill, that ban will be extended to any regulated games, meaning that offenders could go to amateur league games and cause havoc there. That is why Billy called for the provision to be extended to a particular type of offender.
OK.
I thank the officials from the Department of Justice and those from Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure for coming before the Committee today.
Mr Tom Haire, Mr Gareth Johnston - Department of Justice
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Technical progress may result not only in a reduction of workload but also in a devaluation of human capital which is bounded to persons, relatives and communities. New sourcing strategies of enterprises for example via crowd and click work platforms will change the structure of relevant labour markets.
Labour law may foster the unintended effect of building up a non-core workforce which is excluded from regulations which protect regular employees. The questions of how protection can be organised elsewhere, and whether monetary instruments as an unconditional minimum wage are a good remedy are still debated intensely.
The additional margin for manoeuvre intended as a resource enabling coping in models of work-related stress has converted to a stressor itself in flexible organisations.
Changes of value orientations, which are out of the perspective of social research since decades, may result in altered individual demands and hence on answers to the question what makes a good job.
The same is true for the change in the structure of the workforce, for example concerning age, gender, generation and religious orientation, on the collective level.
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