 due to better procedures. How do you think those military surgeons developed ways of patching up some young soldier that’s been shot or injured by an IED? Is it better to let them die?
My problem with most anti-research activists is that they try to narrow the problem to a very narrow arguement. Just because it didn’t work for you doesn’t mean it doesn’t work. For others, animal research has literally meant the difference between life and death. Is it better to let them die?
I’m sorry, 23.9% of soldiers in Vietnam died of their wounds, it wasn’t the survival rate. Now it’s 5-10% die from their wounds.
OK, no philosophical debate. – I am aware your mind is made up too. I just wondered if you were willing to go public on those questions I asked. But it’s odd that those whose only duty is animal welfare support painful experiments on them – I don’t understand that. You’ve got me worried – my doctor’e duty is my welfare….
I don’t benefit from animal research, by the way. The USFDA figures show 92% of drugs passed by animal tests fail at the human stage. For the disease which I have suffered from for many years, the main line of research for 30 years was guinea pig experiments. They have now given up on these as unpromising. Perhaps they have delayed a cure.
Still, come back to England some time and we can debate face to face as we once started.
As far as “painful experiments” – the minimum standard of acceptable care in a laboratory is considerably higher than in the home.
If you have taken medication, for a headache, a cold, or something more serious – you have benefited from animal research. Furthermore nearly everyone in the UK has had a variety of vaccines, so even if you hadn’t – you benefit from everyone else taking these vaccines and preventing the spread of diseases like measles, mumps, TB, Meningitis, flu … the list goes on.
Barry you have my email address if you want to have a debate (alhough we both know that your mind has been firmly made up for a while).
There was certainly a large number of researchers, as well as large numbers of veterinary staff and technicians (those who’s only duty is animal welfare). However everyone there was self-interested insofar that they will all benefit over the course of their life from medicines derived from animal research (just as you benefit).
How many of the people at the UCLA rally were professors and students from departments experimenting on animals and thus with interests in their own practices and careers?
I understand that you may not be able to be absolutely precise here, but I know you must have an approximate idea.
Incidentally, do you think there is any limit to the permissible violence, in quantity or quality, to animals for any perceived human benefit? Do you think that power, for example derived from superior intelligence, is its own justification? Do you agree with bullying, for example of the weakest, defencesless and voiceless?
I’m a bit dubious about these numbers. Sounds a bit hyped up to me. The last Pro-Test rally in Oxford a few years ago claimed 200, but there were actually only about 75 – individually counted. The organisers were overheard despairing about the numbers in the pub afterwards and there was never a Pro-Test rally again in Oxford and Pro-Test in the UK is now virtually dead. The people on the rallies are largely students using animals or those who have, or expect to have, careers researching on animals (Tom Holder is an exception – did I recognise your style in this write-up, Tom?). I know Oxford physiology students who changed courses to avoid the experiments which the system and their professors expected of them. Might I suggest that Pro-Test rallies should be called “Save Our Careers in Animal Testing”.
Under the hype, how many actually were there at this rally (I’m guessing a meagre 200 or less) and how many bioscience faculty and students are there on these campuses? As Private Eye in the UK would say “I think we should be told”.
Above is a photo from the 2008 rally which shows only a section of the march (You can’t see the front or back), and has over 100 people in it alone (feel free to “individually count” them).
Pro-Test in Oxford has no need for rallies, but spends its time giving school talks, which it does with some regularity.
Barry, I was a steward at the 2008 Pro-Test rally and can confirm that there were about 250 people there.
A challange on that occasion was that there was a general recognition that we had already “won” over a year before, and it’s quite difficult to motivate people to come out and make a point that many felt they made very well two years previously. The feeling of urgency wasn’t there any more, after all be then the lab was almost finished (it’s since opened), and AR extremist attacks and harassment in the UK had decreased to a tiny fraction of what they had once been. Various polls of students in Oxford taken between 2005 and 2007 (after which interest in the issue decreased) showed support for construction of the new lab to be consistantly above 80%.
The march itself was fun, the atmosphere was just about the most laid back I’ve ever exprerienced on a march, and it felt like a victory rally marking the end of the “activist” phase of Pro-Test’s activities in Oxford. I don’t remember any “despairing” in the pub, mostly discussion of what we should do next, with school talks and other more conventional science outreach activities being high on the agenda.
I suspect that a similar situation applied at UCLA, it’s a lot easier to motivate people to make a point the first time around, and as with Oxford the situation has improved in LA since the 2009 rally. About 350 joined the march across the UCLA campus, but about 200-250 listened to the speeches at either end…I guess our supporters are busy people!
It sounds like a great rally. Keep up the good work!
Congratulations on another successful rally! Thank you to all of the organizers and participants who made a powerful stand for animal research, scientific progress, and civil, open dialogue about this important issue. Your efforts inspire us all!Asked how the duet came together, Manson recalls, “Anna slyly, with a wry little grin playing on her lips, said, ‘How would you feel about me approaching Fiona Apple?’ I was like, ‘Are you kidding? I would be over the moon, but I don’t think she’ll do it.’ At around midnight she texted me in a frenzy, ‘Fiona is in.’ I think my belly flipped over — in that lovesick way,” she laughs.
For Manson, an outspoken proponent for women’s rights long before the #MeToo movement arose, Apple’s presence was galvanizing.
Froehlich’s Outfitter and Guide Horse Rides in Cannelton, Indiana is a unique opportunity that you don’t see every day.
Ride the German Ridge Trail on horseback right from Froehlich’s own personal property straight into the Hoosier National Forest.
It wasn’t easy. It took fourteen years for Christie Froehlich to achieve her dream of setting up an outfitter and guide horse rides through the Hoosier National Forest in Perry County. They hacked their way through the forest to create these trails. Between the paperwork and actually making the trails, that’s dedication for you.
You can enjoy all of their hard work and ride the trails that Christie and husband (and even sons) have created through this stretch of the gorgeous, gorgeous forest–some twenty-four miles of them.
Step right up to Froehlich’s Outfitter and Guide Horse Rides and Christie will match a horse to you. Since this was the second time that I had ever ridden a horse, I got an older girl named Reo, a Tennessee walker that liked to walk fast and crowd the space of the horse that Kid #1 was riding.
Kid #2 and my husband brought up the rear on a very old, slow-moving, and gentle horse that’s been alive for longer than we have. 
Christie has led groups small and large on the trails. From a bunch of roller derby girls to Colts cheerleaders to Boy Scouts and a bachelor’s party, she’s had all kinds (and plenty of stories to tell, too).
If you do a long enough horseback ride, you will go through trees, see rock formations, a cave, and probably a deer or two along the way. It’s so relaxing to see a side of the sprawling Southern Indiana forest you just haven’t seen before–from the back of a loping horse.
This one will always hold a special place in my heart for a very big reason–while riding through the Hoosier National Forest (my second time on a horse, remember), I got the phone call from NBC. I have to say I never exactly thought I’d ever speak to an NBC producer let alone on a horse in the middle of a forest.
Froehlich’s Outfitter and Guide Horse Rides in Cannelton, Indiana is good clean fun for the whole family. I can’t gush enough about this unique Indiana attraction. They are open year round–and Christie said that it is a beautiful place to be in the Autumn.
&gt;Christ doesn't teach that. Paul teaches that.

They don't