Hi all,

Over the last few weeks we've put together a new "Advocacy and
Marketing" website for PostgreSQL:

http://advocacy.postgresql.org

It's now ready for public release.  It has the first few case studies,
lists the major advantages to PostgreSQL, and provides a place you can
point your CIO, CTO, and CEO's at, etc.

:-)

Regards and best wishes,

Justin Clift

-- 
"My grandfather once told me that there are two kinds of people: those
who work and those who take the credit. He told me to try to be in the
first group; there was less competition there."
   - Indira Gandhi

Wed, 02 Oct 2002 10:34:49 +1000
Justin Clift <justin@postgresql.org>
New PostgreSQL Website : advocacy.postgresql.org
* Justin Clift <justin@postgresql.org> [2002-10-02 10:34 +1000]:
> Over the last few weeks we've put together a new "Advocacy and
> Marketing" website for PostgreSQL:
> 
> http://advocacy.postgresql.org

Cool :-)

A few remarks:

* [http://advocacy.postgresql.org/advantages/]
  """
  ...
  A point list for some technical features that PostgreSQL offers:
  ...
  * Replication (available commercially) allowing the duplication of
    the database on multiple machines
  """

  IIRC there is now a replication solution in contrib/ I've never used
  it though. So you can perhaps cut the "available commercially" There
  might be other commercial offerings I know nothing about.

* "PostgreSQL : The worlds most advanced Open Source database"
  This probably isn't entirely true any more, considering the
  availability of SAP DB. I personally still stick with PostgreSQL,
  however, as I like it and it seems to have much momentum.

* Allows you to win Bullshit-Bingo in 10 seconds. But that's by design
  ;-)

* I don't like serif-fonts like "Times New Roman" on web pages. What
  about using a font declaration like (from my homepage):

  body {  font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;
  background-color: #FFFFEE}

  throughout the site?

-- Gerhard

Wed, 2 Oct 2002 03:52:37 +0200
Gerhard =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E4ring?= <gerhard.haering@gmx.de>
Re: PostgreSQL Website : advocacy.postgresql.org
Gerhard Hï¿½ring wrote:
> 
> * Justin Clift <justin@postgresql.org> [2002-10-02 10:34 +1000]:
> > Over the last few weeks we've put together a new "Advocacy and
> > Marketing" website for PostgreSQL:
> >
> > http://advocacy.postgresql.org
> 
> Cool :-)

:-)

> A few remarks:

Thanks Gerhard.  :)
 
> * [http://advocacy.postgresql.org/advantages/]
>   """
>   ...
>   A point list for some technical features that PostgreSQL offers:
>   ...
>   * Replication (available commercially) allowing the duplication of
>     the database on multiple machines
>   """
> 
>   IIRC there is now a replication solution in contrib/ I've never used
>   it though. So you can perhaps cut the "available commercially" There
>   might be other commercial offerings I know nothing about.

Good point.  Althought the /contrib/rserv version doesn't work for
PostgreSQL 7.2.x (have tried), there is still Usogres and stuff.  Will
update that.  :)

> * "PostgreSQL : The worlds most advanced Open Source database"
>   This probably isn't entirely true any more, considering the
>   availability of SAP DB. I personally still stick with PostgreSQL,
>   however, as I like it and it seems to have much momentum.

Hmmm... suggested new tag line?  :)

> * Allows you to win Bullshit-Bingo in 10 seconds. But that's by design
>   ;-)

Heh Heh Heh

> * I don't like serif-fonts like "Times New Roman" on web pages. What
>   about using a font declaration like (from my homepage):

There aren't any typeface changing elements in the page (unless
something got past me).  And we don't use CSS anywhere.  Seems to be
really cross-browser this way.  :)

>   body {  font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;
>   background-color: #FFFFEE}
> 
>   throughout the site?

Um... not yet.  Haven't learnt CSS yet, don't have the spare time too,
and for the moment "this works".  Hope that doesn't sound like a bad
attitude, it's just there's so much stuff going on at the moment.

:-)

Regards and best wishes,

Justin Clift

> -- Gerhard

-- 
"My grandfather once told me that there are two kinds of people: those
who work and those who take the credit. He told me to try to be in the
first group; there was less competition there."
   - Indira Gandhi

Wed, 02 Oct 2002 12:07:46 +1000
Justin Clift <justin@postgresql.org>
Re: PostgreSQL Website : advocacy.postgresql.org
Justin Clift <justin@postgresql.org> writes:
> Gerhard Hï¿½ring wrote:
> >   IIRC there is now a replication solution in contrib/ I've never
> >   used it though. So you can perhaps cut the "available
> >   commercially" There might be other commercial offerings I know
> >   nothing about.
> 
> Good point.  Althought the /contrib/rserv version doesn't work for
> PostgreSQL 7.2.x (have tried), there is still Usogres and
> stuff. Will update that.  :)

I think we should only advertise the features that we actually
support. IMHO, there is no open-source code that supports replication
in a way that is suitable for widespread production use -- so, at
least, you should keep the "commercially available" caveat.

Also, the feature list doesn't include foreign keys / ref int.,
cursors, ANSI outer joins, and MVCC (which you should probably explain
in terms a PHB can understand).

The list of interfaces should probably also include ecpg. If we're
including interfaces for languages not bundled with the database, Ruby
and PHP are probably worth including.

You can also elaborate on the support for stored procedures --
e.g. the languages in which they can be defined.

You might want to be a little more verbose on the support for
subqueries (don't just say UNION, etc.)

The paragraph titled "Extensible" seems to end in mid-sentence.

Mentioning the limitations of PostgreSQL might be good -- "we support
tables up to x gigabytes, with y rows, z columns, etc.". There's an
FAQ entry on this which you can probably adapt.

A brief bit on the history of Postgres might be good (it's been around
for a while, therefore it's not likely to die off any time soon).

The SapDB feature list is here:

        http://www.sapdb.org/sap_db_features.htm

Might be worth looking at...

Cheers,

Neil

-- 
Neil Conway <neilc@samurai.com> || PGP Key ID: DB3C29FC


01 Oct 2002 22:37:16 -0400
Neil Conway <neilc@samurai.com>
Re: PostgreSQL Website : advocacy.postgresql.org
Hi Neil,

Neil Conway wrote:
> 
> Justin Clift <justin@postgresql.org> writes:
> > Gerhard Hï¿½ring wrote:
> > >   IIRC there is now a replication solution in contrib/ I've never
> > >   used it though. So you can perhaps cut the "available
> > >   commercially" There might be other commercial offerings I know
> > >   nothing about.
> >
> > Good point.  Althought the /contrib/rserv version doesn't work for
> > PostgreSQL 7.2.x (have tried), there is still Usogres and
> > stuff. Will update that.  :)
> 
> I think we should only advertise the features that we actually
> support. IMHO, there is no open-source code that supports replication
> in a way that is suitable for widespread production use -- so, at
> least, you should keep the "commercially available" caveat.

Does anyone know how usable Usogres is?  Haven't had the time to
properly implement it and test it.  :-/
 
> Also, the feature list doesn't include foreign keys / ref int.,
> cursors, ANSI outer joins, and MVCC (which you should probably explain
> in terms a PHB can understand).

Just added them (MVCC was already there though).
 
> The list of interfaces should probably also include ecpg. If we're
> including interfaces for languages not bundled with the database, Ruby
> and PHP are probably worth including.

Added these too.  :)

> You can also elaborate on the support for stored procedures --
> e.g. the languages in which they can be defined.

Not yet.  There's only so much that should be on the page, and although
we have tonnes of features I'm not sure that it's not overdone already.

> You might want to be a little more verbose on the support for
> subqueries (don't just say UNION, etc.)
> 
> The paragraph titled "Extensible" seems to end in mid-sentence.

Oops.  Thanks for pointing that out.  Just fixed it.  :)
 
> Mentioning the limitations of PostgreSQL might be good -- "we support
> tables up to x gigabytes, with y rows, z columns, etc.". There's an
> FAQ entry on this which you can probably adapt.

Good point, but not just yet.  Let's see how this goes first.  :)
 
> A brief bit on the history of Postgres might be good (it's been around
> for a while, therefore it's not likely to die off any time soon).

Any suggestions to add to the presently-small-piece on the About page? 
If anyone can put together something that sounds good, then that would
be an excellent improvement.
 
> The SapDB feature list is here:
> 
>         http://www.sapdb.org/sap_db_features.htm
> 
> Might be worth looking at...

Thanks heaps Neil.  Just added the stuff they mention, that we also
have.

Subtransactions was the only thing they seem to have that we don't (from
that list).

"Most Advanced Open Source Database" might still be correct after all. 
MVCC is only optional for them, and we have a bunch more available
interfaces... :)

Regards and best wishes,

Justin Clift


> Cheers,
> 
> Neil
> 
> --
> Neil Conway <neilc@samurai.com> || PGP Key ID: DB3C29FC

-- 
"My grandfather once told me that there are two kinds of people: those
who work and those who take the credit. He told me to try to be in the
first group; there was less competition there."
   - Indira Gandhi

Wed, 02 Oct 2002 13:27:11 +1000
Justin Clift <justin@postgresql.org>
Re: PostgreSQL Website : advocacy.postgresql.org
On Tue, Oct 01, 2002 at 10:37:16PM -0400, Neil Conway wrote:
> Mentioning the limitations of PostgreSQL might be good -- "we support
> tables up to x gigabytes, with y rows, z columns, etc.". There's an
> FAQ entry on this which you can probably adapt.

You're looking at it wrong. PostgreSQL doesn't have limitations, it has
capabilites. For example: PostgreSQL supports multi-terabytes databases with
billions of rows and thousands of columns. Examples in <big company a>, <big
company b>.
-- 
Martijn van Oosterhout   <kleptog@svana.org>   http://svana.org/kleptog/
> There are 10 kinds of people in the world, those that can do binary
> arithmetic and those that can't.

Wed, 2 Oct 2002 15:43:22 +1000
Martijn van Oosterhout <kleptog@svana.org>
Re: PostgreSQL Website : advocacy.postgresql.org
Greetings, Justin!

At 02.10.2002, 6:07, you wrote:

>>   IIRC there is now a replication solution in contrib/ I've never used
>>   it though. So you can perhaps cut the "available commercially" There
>>   might be other commercial offerings I know nothing about.

JC> Good point.  Althought the /contrib/rserv version doesn't work for
JC> PostgreSQL 7.2.x (have tried), there is still Usogres and stuff.  Will
JC> update that.  :)

    In fact, contrib/rserv works quite well, I've been using it for half a year
    already. There are gotchas, of course:
    1) It does not work out of the box. Its build process was broken
    some time ago. I tried to submit a patch for this, but had hard
    time pushing it through the same developer who broke it. Well,
    maybe I will at last be able to produce something that will please
    him and it will be in 7.3.x
    2) There is no coherent documentation for the package. Well, maybe
    I should write some based on my experience. :]
    3) If you dump/restore a DB with contrib/rserv, you'll need to do
    some manual tweaking to its tables.


-- 
ï¿½ ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½, ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½
ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½-ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ "ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½-ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ï¿½"
http://www.rdw.ru 
http://www.vashdosug.ru



Wed, 2 Oct 2002 11:31:41 +0400
Alexey Borzov <borz_off@rdw.ru>
concerning rserv Re[2]: PostgreSQL Website : advocacy.postgresql.org
Justin,

what does world map with fuzzy points supposed to show ?

	Oleg
On Wed, 2 Oct 2002, Justin Clift wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> Over the last few weeks we've put together a new "Advocacy and
> Marketing" website for PostgreSQL:
>
> http://advocacy.postgresql.org
>
> It's now ready for public release.  It has the first few case studies,
> lists the major advantages to PostgreSQL, and provides a place you can
> point your CIO, CTO, and CEO's at, etc.
>
> :-)
>
> Regards and best wishes,
>
> Justin Clift
>
>

	Regards,
		Oleg
_____________________________________________________________
Oleg Bartunov, sci.researcher, hostmaster of AstroNet,
Sternberg Astronomical Institute, Moscow University (Russia)
Internet: oleg@sai.msu.su, http://www.sai.msu.su/~megera/
phone: +007(095)939-16-83, +007(095)939-23-83


Wed, 2 Oct 2002 11:26:52 +0300 (GMT)
Oleg Bartunov <oleg@sai.msu.su>
Re: [GENERAL] New PostgreSQL Website : advocacy.postgresql.org
Hi Oleg,

It's supposed to show roughly where everyone is.

Based mostly on Vince's map from the developer site, but this one is
really easy to update.

If you're not located on the map correctly (probably hard to tell, but
if you're wrong on Vince's map then you're wrong on this one) it can be
updated pronto.

:)

Regards and best wishes,

Justin Clift


Oleg Bartunov wrote:
> 
> Justin,
> 
> what does world map with fuzzy points supposed to show ?
> 
>         Oleg
> On Wed, 2 Oct 2002, Justin Clift wrote:
> 
> > Hi all,
> >
> > Over the last few weeks we've put together a new "Advocacy and
> > Marketing" website for PostgreSQL:
> >
> > http://advocacy.postgresql.org
> >
> > It's now ready for public release.  It has the first few case studies,
> > lists the major advantages to PostgreSQL, and provides a place you can
> > point your CIO, CTO, and CEO's at, etc.
> >
> > :-)
> >
> > Regards and best wishes,
> >
> > Justin Clift
> >
> >
> 
>         Regards,
>                 Oleg
> _____________________________________________________________
> Oleg Bartunov, sci.researcher, hostmaster of AstroNet,
> Sternberg Astronomical Institute, Moscow University (Russia)
> Internet: oleg@sai.msu.su, http://www.sai.msu.su/~megera/
> phone: +007(095)939-16-83, +007(095)939-23-83

-- 
"My grandfather once told me that there are two kinds of people: those
who work and those who take the credit. He told me to try to be in the
first group; there was less competition there."
   - Indira Gandhi

Wed, 02 Oct 2002 21:01:56 +1000
Justin Clift <justin@postgresql.org>
Re: [GENERAL] New PostgreSQL Website : advocacy.postgresql.org
On Wed, 2 Oct 2002, Justin Clift wrote:

> Hi Oleg,
>
> It's supposed to show roughly where everyone is.
>
> Based mostly on Vince's map from the developer site, but this one is
> really easy to update.
>
> If you're not located on the map correctly (probably hard to tell, but
> if you're wrong on Vince's map then you're wrong on this one) it can be
> updated pronto.

Look for an updated map shortly.  I have everyone's coordinates in and
it looks like the tools build ok.  I should have at least a day or two
break from the activities in Congress (re. internet broadcasting), so
I want to get the new one up asap and before things bust loose again.

Vince.
-- 
==========================================================================
Vince Vielhaber -- KA8CSH    email: vev@michvhf.com    http://www.pop4.net
         56K Nationwide Dialup from $16.00/mo at Pop4 Networking
      http://www.camping-usa.com      http://www.cloudninegifts.com
   http://www.meanstreamradio.com       http://www.unknown-artists.com
==========================================================================




Wed, 2 Oct 2002 07:15:12 -0400 (EDT)
Vince Vielhaber <vev@michvhf.com>
Re: [GENERAL] New PostgreSQL Website : advocacy.postgresql.org
On Wed, 2 Oct 2002, Vince Vielhaber wrote:

> On Wed, 2 Oct 2002, Justin Clift wrote:
>
> > Hi Oleg,
> >
> > It's supposed to show roughly where everyone is.
> >
> > Based mostly on Vince's map from the developer site, but this one is
> > really easy to update.
> >
> > If you're not located on the map correctly (probably hard to tell, but
> > if you're wrong on Vince's map then you're wrong on this one) it can be
> > updated pronto.
>
> Look for an updated map shortly.  I have everyone's coordinates in and
> it looks like the tools build ok.  I should have at least a day or two
> break from the activities in Congress (re. internet broadcasting), so
> I want to get the new one up asap and before things bust loose again.

Coordinates seems ok (Moscow), I asked if map should present something
more like old Bruce's map with photos. I'm using Mozilla and see just
a picture of the world :-)

>
> Vince.
>

	Regards,
		Oleg
_____________________________________________________________
Oleg Bartunov, sci.researcher, hostmaster of AstroNet,
Sternberg Astronomical Institute, Moscow University (Russia)
Internet: oleg@sai.msu.su, http://www.sai.msu.su/~megera/
phone: +007(095)939-16-83, +007(095)939-23-83


Wed, 2 Oct 2002 16:51:02 +0400 (MSD)
Oleg Bartunov <oleg@sai.msu.su>
Re: [GENERAL] New PostgreSQL Website : advocacy.postgresql.org
Oleg Bartunov wrote:
<snip>
> Coordinates seems ok (Moscow), I asked if map should present something
> more like old Bruce's map with photos. I'm using Mozilla and see just
> a picture of the world :-)

Heh Heh Heh

Nah, just went for the simple approach.  :)  Could have added them, but
didn't want to step on Vince's toes *too much*.

:)

Regards and best wishes,

Justin Clift


> > Vince.
> >
> 
>         Regards,
>                 Oleg
> _____________________________________________________________
> Oleg Bartunov, sci.researcher, hostmaster of AstroNet,
> Sternberg Astronomical Institute, Moscow University (Russia)
> Internet: oleg@sai.msu.su, http://www.sai.msu.su/~megera/
> phone: +007(095)939-16-83, +007(095)939-23-83

-- 
"My grandfather once told me that there are two kinds of people: those
who work and those who take the credit. He told me to try to be in the
first group; there was less competition there."
   - Indira Gandhi

Wed, 02 Oct 2002 22:52:52 +1000
Justin Clift <justin@postgresql.org>
Re: [GENERAL] New PostgreSQL Website : advocacy.postgresql.org
On Wed, 2 Oct 2002, Oleg Bartunov wrote:

> On Wed, 2 Oct 2002, Vince Vielhaber wrote:
>
> > On Wed, 2 Oct 2002, Justin Clift wrote:
> >
> > > Hi Oleg,
> > >
> > > It's supposed to show roughly where everyone is.
> > >
> > > Based mostly on Vince's map from the developer site, but this one is
> > > really easy to update.
> > >
> > > If you're not located on the map correctly (probably hard to tell, but
> > > if you're wrong on Vince's map then you're wrong on this one) it can be
> > > updated pronto.
> >
> > Look for an updated map shortly.  I have everyone's coordinates in and
> > it looks like the tools build ok.  I should have at least a day or two
> > break from the activities in Congress (re. internet broadcasting), so
> > I want to get the new one up asap and before things bust loose again.
>
> Coordinates seems ok (Moscow), I asked if map should present something
> more like old Bruce's map with photos. I'm using Mozilla and see just
> a picture of the world :-)

"old Bruce's map" ???  No idea what you're referring to.

Vince.
-- 
==========================================================================
Vince Vielhaber -- KA8CSH    email: vev@michvhf.com    http://www.pop4.net
         56K Nationwide Dialup from $16.00/mo at Pop4 Networking
      http://www.camping-usa.com      http://www.cloudninegifts.com
   http://www.meanstreamradio.com       http://www.unknown-artists.com
==========================================================================




Wed, 2 Oct 2002 08:55:57 -0400 (EDT)
Vince Vielhaber <vev@michvhf.com>
Re: [GENERAL] New PostgreSQL Website : advocacy.postgresql.org
On Wed, 2 Oct 2002, Vince Vielhaber wrote:

> On Wed, 2 Oct 2002, Oleg Bartunov wrote:
>
> > On Wed, 2 Oct 2002, Vince Vielhaber wrote:
> >
> > > On Wed, 2 Oct 2002, Justin Clift wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi Oleg,
> > > >
> > > > It's supposed to show roughly where everyone is.
> > > >
> > > > Based mostly on Vince's map from the developer site, but this one is
> > > > really easy to update.
> > > >
> > > > If you're not located on the map correctly (probably hard to tell, but
> > > > if you're wrong on Vince's map then you're wrong on this one) it can be
> > > > updated pronto.
> > >
> > > Look for an updated map shortly.  I have everyone's coordinates in and
> > > it looks like the tools build ok.  I should have at least a day or two
> > > break from the activities in Congress (re. internet broadcasting), so
> > > I want to get the new one up asap and before things bust loose again.
> >
> > Coordinates seems ok (Moscow), I asked if map should present something
> > more like old Bruce's map with photos. I'm using Mozilla and see just
> > a picture of the world :-)
>
> "old Bruce's map" ???  No idea what you're referring to.
>

I may be wrong with author of the map, but it's there

http://developer.postgresql.org/index.php


> Vince.
>

	Regards,
		Oleg
_____________________________________________________________
Oleg Bartunov, sci.researcher, hostmaster of AstroNet,
Sternberg Astronomical Institute, Moscow University (Russia)
Internet: oleg@sai.msu.su, http://www.sai.msu.su/~megera/
phone: +007(095)939-16-83, +007(095)939-23-83


Wed, 2 Oct 2002 17:52:17 +0400 (MSD)
Oleg Bartunov <oleg@sai.msu.su>
Re: [GENERAL] New PostgreSQL Website : advocacy.postgresql.org
On Wed, 2 Oct 2002, Oleg Bartunov wrote:

> On Wed, 2 Oct 2002, Vince Vielhaber wrote:
>
> > On Wed, 2 Oct 2002, Oleg Bartunov wrote:
> >
> > > On Wed, 2 Oct 2002, Vince Vielhaber wrote:
> > >
> > > > On Wed, 2 Oct 2002, Justin Clift wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Hi Oleg,
> > > > >
> > > > > It's supposed to show roughly where everyone is.
> > > > >
> > > > > Based mostly on Vince's map from the developer site, but this one is
> > > > > really easy to update.
> > > > >
> > > > > If you're not located on the map correctly (probably hard to tell, but
> > > > > if you're wrong on Vince's map then you're wrong on this one) it can be
> > > > > updated pronto.
> > > >
> > > > Look for an updated map shortly.  I have everyone's coordinates in and
> > > > it looks like the tools build ok.  I should have at least a day or two
> > > > break from the activities in Congress (re. internet broadcasting), so
> > > > I want to get the new one up asap and before things bust loose again.
> > >
> > > Coordinates seems ok (Moscow), I asked if map should present something
> > > more like old Bruce's map with photos. I'm using Mozilla and see just
> > > a picture of the world :-)
> >
> > "old Bruce's map" ???  No idea what you're referring to.
> >
>
> I may be wrong with author of the map, but it's there
>
> http://developer.postgresql.org/index.php

Jan's map.

Vince.
-- 
==========================================================================
Vince Vielhaber -- KA8CSH    email: vev@michvhf.com    http://www.pop4.net
         56K Nationwide Dialup from $16.00/mo at Pop4 Networking
      http://www.camping-usa.com      http://www.cloudninegifts.com
   http://www.meanstreamradio.com       http://www.unknown-artists.com
==========================================================================




Wed, 2 Oct 2002 10:02:05 -0400 (EDT)
Vince Vielhaber <vev@michvhf.com>
Re: [GENERAL] New PostgreSQL Website : advocacy.postgresql.org