I talked to Marc several months ago about the possibility of setting up
a system for raising money from commercial users of PostgreSQL kind of
like the "Street Performer Protocol" explained at:

http://www.counterpane.com/street_performer.html

It would basically allow people to view the todo list and to offer a bid
on various features and enhancements.  At the same time, developers (you
guys) could bid on doing the actual work.  When the bid pool on a
certain enhancement got large enough to fund a work bid, the enhancement
could be done and the developer could actually get paid for his work.

As a commercial user of PostgreSQL, I would be interested in throwing a
certain number of $$ at various problems/features of the software.  If
others feel the same way, maybe we could accelerate the development
process and make it more fun for the people doing the actual work.

Is anyone interested in this kind of thing?  Or are financial interests
not really the objective for most of the developers?
Sat, 04 Dec 1999 12:35:52 -0700
Kyle Bateman <kyle@actarg.com>
Raising funds for PostgreSQL
> As a commercial user of PostgreSQL, I would be interested in throwing a
> certain number of $$ at various problems/features of the software.  If
> others feel the same way, maybe we could accelerate the development
> process and make it more fun for the people doing the actual work.
> 
> Is anyone interested in this kind of thing?  Or are financial interests
> not really the objective for most of the developers?

Interesting idea.

-- 
  Bruce Momjian                        |  http://www.op.net/~candle
  maillist@candle.pha.pa.us            |  (610) 853-3000
  +  If your life is a hard drive,     |  830 Blythe Avenue
  +  Christ can be your backup.        |  Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026

Sat, 4 Dec 1999 15:08:59 -0500 (EST)
Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>
Re: [HACKERS] Raising funds for PostgreSQL
While I have no doubt such an idea for $$ for open source code development
would fly, my initial reaction would be opposed to it because I think the
overall effect would be to pollute the long-term purity of the open source
pgsql development effort by incenting short-sighted development to earn
cash.  Quality controls can never keep up.  Here's a bit more on my
perspective...

[long-winded self-important soapboxing hilosphical flame suit on]

I am a software developer who has benefitted tremendously from open source
software.  Linux, Apache, Perl, SSL, PostgreSQL, GIMP...hundreds if not
thousands of pieces of open-source software.  I have come to realize this
at a very gut level.  We're talking about many, many years (hundreds?
thousands?) of labor via open source.  Though not in cash, I have been
"paid" in value many times over via open source software.  As a result of a
clear understanding that I along with everyone else will ultimately
benefit, I have a very personal and growing commitment to give back to the
open source movement.  I do that by spending some of my personal time
helping others use these tools via forums, newsgroups, etc., by providing
feedback to developers, by providing bug fixes/patches/enhancements to open
source software where I can, and by generating open source software for
others.

What strikes me about open source development is that it is some of the
cleanest, purest development around.  By that, I mean only that there is
far less of the sense of "doing the absolute minimum to get the money" that
is so prevalent in private for-profit corporations who will live or die by
next quarter's results and the short-term assessment of value-add by
shareholders.  If you hang around these open source development forums for
very long and know much about how software design decisions often get made
in the corporate software world, you will notice a powerful design slant
toward longer-term vision as opposed to the tyranny of the urgent that
usually presides in the corporate environment.  While I love the free
market and see a lot of validity to the free market theory behind the
market-driven corporate software development, I also think it is quite rare
that software developed under such circumstances has such benefit to the
world at large while also having the exponential opportunities to grow and
spread by the worldwide efforts of others.  MS Excel is, IMO, probably the
most productive piece of software in existence.  But it will always be
constrained by the fortunes of Microsoft or the holder of the intellectual
property rights.  Open source, on the other hand, has the potential to
propagate indefinitely to benefit people everywhere indefinitely, because
it is free to grow.  Both approaches seem valdi/important, and I think
there is a needed balance between proprietary nature of the private sector,
and the open source movement.  It is a fine balance, and it is none too
clear on how to best draw it.  It is a very complex issue with many sides.
Personally, I think it's quite related to many of the great debates of all
time, such as capitalism vs socialism vs communism, even the inherent
nature of human kind.  But I digress. :)

But what is clear to me is that there is a lot of open source decision
making going on which is in the public's best interest.  I don't have much
confidence that this would remain so if the proposal below played out.

[flame suit off]

Cheers.
Ed


Kyle Bateman wrote:

> I talked to Marc several months ago about the possibility of setting up
> a system for raising money from commercial users of PostgreSQL kind of
> like the "Street Performer Protocol" explained at:
>
> http://www.counterpane.com/street_performer.html
>
> It would basically allow people to view the todo list and to offer a bid
> on various features and enhancements.  At the same time, developers (you
> guys) could bid on doing the actual work.  When the bid pool on a
> certain enhancement got large enough to fund a work bid, the enhancement
> could be done and the developer could actually get paid for his work.
>
> As a commercial user of PostgreSQL, I would be interested in throwing a
> certain number of $$ at various problems/features of the software.  If
> others feel the same way, maybe we could accelerate the development
> process and make it more fun for the people doing the actual work.
>
> Is anyone interested in this kind of thing?  Or are financial interests
> not really the objective for most of the developers?


Sat, 04 Dec 1999 14:48:11 -0600
Ed Loehr <ELOEHR@austin.rr.com>
Re: [HACKERS] Raising funds for PostgreSQL
hi..

> While I have no doubt such an idea for $$ for open source code development
> would fly, my initial reaction would be opposed to it because I think the
> overall effect would be to pollute the long-term purity of the open source
> pgsql development effort by incenting short-sighted development to earn
> cash.  Quality controls can never keep up.  Here's a bit more on my
> perspective...

<SNIP>

> But what is clear to me is that there is a lot of open source decision
> making going on which is in the public's best interest.  I don't have much
> confidence that this would remain so if the proposal below played out.

the solution to this "problem" is probably rediculously obvious, but here goes
anyways:

  only items that are put on the to-do list by the developers can be bid on.

in other words, its stuff we'd get around to anyways... the $ incentive would
merely motivate us to get to it sooner...

hell, you could even put time/quality conditions on it... e.g. feature Y cannot
be commenced until feature X is completed (and if feature X is boring and dull,
perhaps it will sit for a long time undone, unless there are other incentives
(read: $) and therefore prelong the absence of much desired and sexy feature Y).

of course, before anyone gets paid, it has to be accepted into the mainstream
package. 

how's that?

the only issue i'd see is that the current licensing scheme provides little
protection to the financial donors' investment (e.g. they could be financing
someone else's commercial development). but that's their problem...

-- 
Aaron J. Seigo
Sys Admin

Sat, 4 Dec 1999 14:08:38 -0700
"Aaron J. Seigo" <aaron@gtv.ca>
Re: [HACKERS] Raising funds for PostgreSQL
> While I have no doubt such an idea for $$ for open source code development
> would fly, my initial reaction would be opposed to it because I think the
> overall effect would be to pollute the long-term purity of the open source
> pgsql development effort by incenting short-sighted development to earn
> cash.  Quality controls can never keep up.  Here's a bit more on my
> perspective...

My assumption is that the bids are open only to proven PostgreSQL
developers, and that the quality of the work must meet the same
standards we use for all our patches.  All our patches are
peer-reviewed.

-- 
  Bruce Momjian                        |  http://www.op.net/~candle
  maillist@candle.pha.pa.us            |  (610) 853-3000
  +  If your life is a hard drive,     |  830 Blythe Avenue
  +  Christ can be your backup.        |  Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026

Sat, 4 Dec 1999 16:09:09 -0500 (EST)
Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>
Re: [HACKERS] Raising funds for PostgreSQL
On Sat, 4 Dec 1999, Kyle Bateman wrote:

> I talked to Marc several months ago about the possibility of setting up
> a system for raising money from commercial users of PostgreSQL kind of
> like the "Street Performer Protocol" explained at:
> 
> http://www.counterpane.com/street_performer.html
> 
> It would basically allow people to view the todo list and to offer a bid
> on various features and enhancements.  At the same time, developers (you
> guys) could bid on doing the actual work.  When the bid pool on a
> certain enhancement got large enough to fund a work bid, the enhancement
> could be done and the developer could actually get paid for his work.
> 
> As a commercial user of PostgreSQL, I would be interested in throwing a
> certain number of $$ at various problems/features of the software.  If
> others feel the same way, maybe we could accelerate the development
> process and make it more fun for the people doing the actual work.
> 
> Is anyone interested in this kind of thing?  Or are financial interests
> not really the objective for most of the developers?

Ummm...read point 2 at: http://www.pgsql.com/mission.html

We should probably create a seperate, more visible link, but see the
Contribute item at:

	http://www.pgsql.com/products.html

And, we even "advertise" the contributors:

	http://www.pgsql.com/contributors.html

And note...this has all be here for months...

Marc G. Fournier                   ICQ#7615664               IRC Nick: Scrappy
Systems Administrator @ hub.org 
primary: scrappy@hub.org           secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org 


Sun, 5 Dec 1999 18:33:21 -0400 (AST)
The Hermit Hacker <scrappy@hub.org>
Re: [HACKERS] Raising funds for PostgreSQL
On Sat, 4 Dec 1999, Bruce Momjian wrote:

> > While I have no doubt such an idea for $$ for open source code development
> > would fly, my initial reaction would be opposed to it because I think the
> > overall effect would be to pollute the long-term purity of the open source
> > pgsql development effort by incenting short-sighted development to earn
> > cash.  Quality controls can never keep up.  Here's a bit more on my
> > perspective...
> 
> My assumption is that the bids are open only to proven PostgreSQL
> developers, and that the quality of the work must meet the same
> standards we use for all our patches.  All our patches are
> peer-reviewed.

Actually, this is what PostgreSQL, Inc was formed for many months
back...there was, at one time, a URL on our page, and an email message
sent out by myself, explaining this whole "contribute toward
features" aspect of things, but, going through www.pgsql.com, it appears
to have been trim'd out at some point :(

Will go through my old mailboxes and see if I can find this again, but the
gist of the concept was that we have a contributions section on our web
page, which is currently a part of the products page...if you click on it,
the order for you get presented includes a list of those features where
you can contribute towards having that feature added...

The features that are listed right now are short, but if something isn't
listed, email us and we'll add it to the list...

The features listed has to be something on the TODO list...if not, it has
to be proposed to the -hackers list and added to the TODO list.  

I'm searching through my old email rigth now to try and find the original
message on this, but this has both been discussed already *and*
implemented...

Marc G. Fournier                   ICQ#7615664               IRC Nick: Scrappy
Systems Administrator @ hub.org 
primary: scrappy@hub.org           secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org 



Sun, 5 Dec 1999 18:46:42 -0400 (AST)
The Hermit Hacker <scrappy@hub.org>
Re: [HACKERS] Raising funds for PostgreSQL

On 05-Dec-99 The Hermit Hacker wrote:
> Ummm...read point 2 at: http://www.pgsql.com/mission.html
> 
> We should probably create a seperate, more visible link, but see the
> Contribute item at:
> 
>       http://www.pgsql.com/products.html
> 
> And, we even "advertise" the contributors:
> 
>       http://www.pgsql.com/contributors.html
> 
> And note...this has all be here for months...

Perhaps I should add something under the "Helping Us" link on the
developer's website?

Vince.
-- 
==========================================================================
Vince Vielhaber -- KA8CSH   email: vev@michvhf.com   flame-mail: /dev/null
  # include <std/disclaimers.h>       Have you seen http://www.pop4.net?
        Online Campground Directory    http://www.camping-usa.com
       Online Giftshop Superstore    http://www.cloudninegifts.com
==========================================================================



Sun, 05 Dec 1999 17:51:02 -0500 (EST)
Vince Vielhaber <vev@michvhf.com>
Re: [HACKERS] Raising funds for PostgreSQL
On Sun, 5 Dec 1999, Vince Vielhaber wrote:

> 
> On 05-Dec-99 The Hermit Hacker wrote:
> > Ummm...read point 2 at: http://www.pgsql.com/mission.html
> > 
> > We should probably create a seperate, more visible link, but see the
> > Contribute item at:
> > 
> >       http://www.pgsql.com/products.html
> > 
> > And, we even "advertise" the contributors:
> > 
> >       http://www.pgsql.com/contributors.html
> > 
> > And note...this has all be here for months...
> 
> Perhaps I should add something under the "Helping Us" link on the
> developer's website?

that sounds good...Jeff and I are going to re-work the contribute stuff,
since its pretty hidden right now :(  will announce something this week on
it...

Marc G. Fournier                   ICQ#7615664               IRC Nick: Scrappy
Systems Administrator @ hub.org 
primary: scrappy@hub.org           secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org 


Sun, 5 Dec 1999 19:18:10 -0400 (AST)
The Hermit Hacker <scrappy@hub.org>
Re: [HACKERS] Raising funds for PostgreSQL
Interesting article relevant to this thread...

http://www.linuxplanet.com/linuxplanet/newss/1316/1/


              SourceXchange Goes Live
              Hewlett-Packard Among Initial Users of the New Service

              Kevin Reichard

              "Collab.Net announced today that it has finished its
beta-test phase and gone into production with its first service,
sourceXchange, a marketplace where open-source developers match their
expertise to committed buyers with well-defined, financially backed
open-source projects."



Wed, 08 Dec 1999 14:06:33 -0600
Ed Loehr <ELOEHR@austin.rr.com>
Re: [HACKERS] Raising funds for PostgreSQL