Hi all,

As many of you know, PostgreSQL, Inc. has determined that Real Soon
Now is the time to release their older version of eRServer as a
contribution back to the rserv project.  That Has Not Happened Yet,
and I Do Not Speak For Them, and so on.  But I have agreed to do some
of the legwork for this, and I'm stuck doing the documentation, too. 
I thought that now would be a good time to ask whether it should
live as a separate project, or whether it should be in contrib.  I
don't actually get to make that decision, of course, but if everyone
agrees it should go to gborg, I can get to work on my own, whereas if
it has to go in contrib, I have to ask someone to do it for me, and I
have to find out whether it can go there now, after feature freeze. 
(If the answer to the latter is, "No," I guess I know what to do,
eh?)

Here are the arguments I can think of on each side:

pro contrib/:

- rserv is already there, and this is an upgrade
- allows us to say that PostgreSQL ships with field-tested
  replication in the source tree
- expands the visibility, increasing the possibility that some 
  replication system will one day be "built in"
- it's not that big, and since it's replacing code now there, it
  won't bloat the tarball

pro gborg:
- lots of other valuable things have been forced to go there
  (procedural languages come to mind; I happen to think that was a
  mistake, but of course, I don't run the circus)
- the new code depends on Java (with one voice now: "Bleccchhh!"),
  and since that doesn't ship with PostgreSQL, there's no harm in
  asking people to download one more thing
- allows rserv to attain a separate release schedule, and there's
  plenty of work to do on this code, so it may see changes faster
  than the main PostgreSQL tree.

If you have any other arguments, or have an opinion on the matter,
I'd like to hear it.

Thanks,
A

-- 
----
Andrew Sullivan                         204-4141 Yonge Street
Liberty RMS                           Toronto, Ontario Canada
<andrew@libertyrms.info>                              M2P 2A8
                                         +1 416 646 3304 x110


Tue, 15 Jul 2003 16:19:34 -0400
Andrew Sullivan <andrew@libertyrms.info>
Criteria for contrib/ versus gborg?
On Tue, 2003-07-15 at 16:19, Andrew Sullivan wrote:
> pro contrib/:
> - it's not that big, and since it's replacing code now there, it
>   won't bloat the tarball
> 
> pro gborg:
> - allows rserv to attain a separate release schedule, and there's
>   plenty of work to do on this code, so it may see changes faster
>   than the main PostgreSQL tree.
> 

is this code really a "replacement" for rserv? There has been work on
rserv in contrib that I'm guessing was not used in the commercial
version. are we better off calling this rserv2 or something and letting
both projects stand side by side?

as the person doing the legwork, do you see one location or the other as
a hindrance to getting the release done? 

Robert Treat
-- 
Build A Brighter Lamp :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL


15 Jul 2003 18:35:38 -0400
Robert Treat <xzilla@users.sourceforge.net>
Re: Criteria for contrib/ versus gborg?
On Tue, Jul 15, 2003 at 06:35:38PM -0400, Robert Treat wrote:
> is this code really a "replacement" for rserv? There has been work on
> rserv in contrib that I'm guessing was not used in the commercial
> version. are we better off calling this rserv2 or something and letting
> both projects stand side by side?

Good point: this code branched back in the summer of 2001, and hasn't
had anything to do with the rserv code since.  So perhaps both should
live.

> as the person doing the legwork, do you see one location or the other as
> a hindrance to getting the release done? 

Not to me, no.  But since I can't commit the changes to CVS, someone
else would have to do that.  Mind you, last time I tried to set up a
project on gborg, I couldn't get it to work after 4 hours, and gave
up.

A

-- 
----
Andrew Sullivan                         204-4141 Yonge Street
Liberty RMS                           Toronto, Ontario Canada
<andrew@libertyrms.info>                              M2P 2A8
                                         +1 416 646 3304 x110


Wed, 16 Jul 2003 07:36:27 -0400
Andrew Sullivan <andrew@libertyrms.info>
Re: Criteria for contrib/ versus gborg?
> pro contrib/:

You have four pro arguments, two of which are for marketing and the other two 
are for lazyness :-)

> pro gborg:

As you note, you will be more independent on gborg, so why not?

Maybe a wish for some official mention of this - and other important - gborg 
project in the documentation ?

-- 
Kaare Rasmussen            --Linux, spil,--        Tlf:        3816 2582
Kaki Data                tshirts, merchandize      Fax:        3816 2501
Howitzvej 75               ï¿½ben 12.00-18.00        Email: kar@kakidata.dk
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Wed, 16 Jul 2003 14:23:21 +0200
Kaare Rasmussen <kar@kakidata.dk>
Re: Criteria for contrib/ versus gborg?

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> - allows us to say that PostgreSQL ships with field-tested
>   replication in the source tree


We have a winner! I think this one trumps all the rest.


- --
Greg Sabino Mullane greg@turnstep.com
PGP Key: 0x14964AC8 200307160920

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Wed, 16 Jul 2003 13:24:23 -0000
greg@turnstep.com
Re: Criteria for contrib/ versus gborg?
On Wed, Jul 16, 2003 at 02:23:21PM +0200, Kaare Rasmussen wrote:
> > pro contrib/:
> 
> You have four pro arguments, two of which are for marketing and the
> other two are for lazyness :-)

For what it's worth, I don't think the marketing arguments are
nothing.  That view was confirmed by what I heard at the OSCON BOF.

> Maybe a wish for some official mention of this - and other important - gborg 
> project in the documentation ?

That's not a bad idea, actually.  The projects on gborg suffer from
too little publicity.  I knew nothing about the very cool PL/R until
I heard about it directly from Joe.

A

-- 
----
Andrew Sullivan                         204-4141 Yonge Street
Liberty RMS                           Toronto, Ontario Canada
<andrew@libertyrms.info>                              M2P 2A8
                                         +1 416 646 3304 x110


Wed, 16 Jul 2003 09:38:17 -0400
Andrew Sullivan <andrew@libertyrms.info>
Re: Criteria for contrib/ versus gborg?
On Wed, 16 Jul 2003, Andrew Sullivan wrote:

> On Tue, Jul 15, 2003 at 06:35:38PM -0400, Robert Treat wrote:
> > is this code really a "replacement" for rserv? There has been work on
> > rserv in contrib that I'm guessing was not used in the commercial
> > version. are we better off calling this rserv2 or something and letting
> > both projects stand side by side?
> 
> Good point: this code branched back in the summer of 2001, and hasn't
> had anything to do with the rserv code since.  So perhaps both should
> live.
> 
> > as the person doing the legwork, do you see one location or the other as
> > a hindrance to getting the release done? 
> 
> Not to me, no.  But since I can't commit the changes to CVS, someone
> else would have to do that.  Mind you, last time I tried to set up a
> project on gborg, I couldn't get it to work after 4 hours, and gave
> up.

I'd say contrib is the natural place for it, as it's a todo item and a 
step towards integration.  It's a feature most people can use, and if it's 
in /contrib it's more likely to get used than if it's on gborg.  


Wed, 16 Jul 2003 08:55:48 -0600 (MDT)
"scott.marlowe" <scott.marlowe@ihs.com>
Re: Criteria for contrib/ versus gborg?
greg@turnstep.com wrote:
> 
> > - allows us to say that PostgreSQL ships with field-tested
> >   replication in the source tree
> 
> 
> We have a winner! I think this one trumps all the rest.

Can we say field-tested and Java in the same sentence?

-- 
  Bruce Momjian                        |  http://candle.pha.pa.us
  pgman@candle.pha.pa.us               |  (610) 359-1001
  +  If your life is a hard drive,     |  13 Roberts Road
  +  Christ can be your backup.        |  Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073

Mon, 21 Jul 2003 18:13:11 -0400 (EDT)
Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>
Re: Criteria for contrib/ versus gborg?
On Tue, Jul 15, 2003 at 04:19:34PM -0400, Andrew Sullivan wrote:

> I thought that now would be a good time to ask whether it should
> live as a separate project, or whether it should be in contrib.  I

I have run into a number of arguments for putting the project on
gborg.  Unless I hear strong arguments against that option, I think
I'll set up a project on gborg.

Here are the arguments I've got:

1.	The code as it stands is not really a full replication
system, but more a toolkit.  We at Liberty had a whole bunch of
bespoke stuff that we used with the eRServer code in order to make it
useful to us (various scripts that ran outside, for instance).  That
can't be released, because (a) it doesn't help anyone else and (b) it
might reveal something about our internal databases (which would get
me in Big Heck).

2.	Building the code is a pain, because it is real sensitive to
JDK versions, Ant installations, &c.  As a result, the current CVS
tree actually has a specific version of ant in it; I'm sure I don't
have time to revisit the build scripts even if I knew what to do.  So
we have to ship all this ancillary code around too, and that will
bloat the tarball and possibly cause a lot of additional support
requests.

3.	The code as it stands works with everything back to 7.2, and
it'd be a shame to make people download a whole postgres tarball just
to get the replication code.

Arguments?  None of those three address the obvious marketing benefit
of having replication shipping with the main tarball, I know.

I have most of a basic installation doc written, and a FAQ of gotchas
and "why doesn't this work" answers.  I'll be delivering that as soon
as it's done to PostgresSQL, Inc; I hope in the next couple days.

A

-- 
----
Andrew Sullivan                         204-4141 Yonge Street
Liberty RMS                           Toronto, Ontario Canada
<andrew@libertyrms.info>                              M2P 2A8
                                         +1 416 646 3304 x110


Tue, 22 Jul 2003 14:40:37 -0400
Andrew Sullivan <andrew@libertyrms.info>
Re: Criteria for contrib/ versus gborg?
Andrew,

> Arguments?  None of those three address the obvious marketing benefit
> of having replication shipping with the main tarball, I know.

Those are pretty strong arguments ... and we can't let PostgreSQL new 
"marketing awareness" sway us to the point that we start making technically 
unfeasable decisions.   So, I'm backing down ... I think despite the PR 
argument in favor of including eRServer as a download is seriously outweighed 
by Andrew's technical argument.   

So that we can get some PR milage out of it though, can we make sure that 
eRServer gets posted to GBorg about the same day as the 7.4 release?   That 
way we can at least include eRServer in our announcement.

-- 
-Josh Berkus
 Aglio Database Solutions
 San Francisco


Tue, 22 Jul 2003 11:46:39 -0700
Josh Berkus <josh@agliodbs.com>
Re: Criteria for contrib/ versus gborg?

Did I miss part of a thread here? :)


On Tue, 22 Jul 2003, Josh Berkus wrote:

> Andrew,
>
> > Arguments?  None of those three address the obvious marketing benefit
> > of having replication shipping with the main tarball, I know.
>
> Those are pretty strong arguments ... and we can't let PostgreSQL new
> "marketing awareness" sway us to the point that we start making technically
> unfeasable decisions.   So, I'm backing down ... I think despite the PR
> argument in favor of including eRServer as a download is seriously outweighed
> by Andrew's technical argument.
>
> So that we can get some PR milage out of it though, can we make sure that
> eRServer gets posted to GBorg about the same day as the 7.4 release?   That
> way we can at least include eRServer in our announcement.
>
> --
> -Josh Berkus
>  Aglio Database Solutions
>  San Francisco
>
>
> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
> TIP 8: explain analyze is your friend
>

Marc G. Fournier                   ICQ#7615664               IRC Nick: Scrappy
Systems Administrator @ hub.org
primary: scrappy@hub.org           secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org

Tue, 22 Jul 2003 16:05:46 -0300 (ADT)
The Hermit Hacker <scrappy@postgresql.org>
Re: Criteria for contrib/ versus gborg?
On Tue, Jul 22, 2003 at 04:05:46PM -0300, The Hermit Hacker wrote:
> 
> Did I miss part of a thread here? :)

I don't think so.  Josh was responding to my post, id
19f22n-0007Gm-00.

A

-- 
----
Andrew Sullivan                         204-4141 Yonge Street
Liberty RMS                           Toronto, Ontario Canada
<andrew@libertyrms.info>                              M2P 2A8
                                         +1 416 646 3304 x110


Tue, 22 Jul 2003 16:16:00 -0400
Andrew Sullivan <andrew@libertyrms.info>
Re: Criteria for contrib/ versus gborg?
On Tue, 22 Jul 2003, Andrew Sullivan wrote:

> On Tue, Jul 22, 2003 at 04:05:46PM -0300, The Hermit Hacker wrote:
> >
> > Did I miss part of a thread here? :)
>
> I don't think so.  Josh was responding to my post, id
> 19f22n-0007Gm-00.

'K, somehow I was missing whole threads, so went through archives to get
caught up :)


Wed, 23 Jul 2003 11:31:58 -0300 (ADT)
The Hermit Hacker <scrappy@postgresql.org>
Re: Criteria for contrib/ versus gborg?