

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Neil Conway [mailto:neilc@samurai.com] 
> Sent: 05 January 2003 22:03
> To: Marc G. Fournier
> Cc: pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org
> Subject: Re: [HACKERS] New Portal in Place, DNS switched ...
> 
> 
> On Sat, 2003-01-04 at 19:40, Marc G. Fournier wrote:
> > I'm just announcing here, since I'd like to see some ppl 
> testing this 
> > out and let us know if there are any problems
> 
> Why are there ads on the page?

There were always ads there - they help pay for the boxes.

Regards, Dave.

Sun, 5 Jan 2003 22:15:09 -0000
"Dave Page" <dpage@vale-housing.co.uk>
Re: New Portal in Place, DNS switched ...
On Sun, 2003-01-05 at 17:15, Dave Page wrote:
> There were always ads there

Yes -- but AFAIK there were in the process of being phased out
(furthermore, the old site only had ads on the initial mirror page,
whereas they are much more widespread on the new site).

> they help pay for the boxes.

Obviously, but it's VERY unprofessional for us to show ads to users on
our website. It goes without saying, but pretty much every other
non-trivial OSS project doesn't have ads on their main website.
Displaying ads makes us look more like a Geocities site than a
legitimate competitor to Oracle/DB2/etc.

In fact, there are several groups that provide free hosting for OSS
projects, without requiring them to display ads on their webpages (e.g.
SourceForge, Savannah, etc.)

Cheers,

Neil
-- 
Neil Conway <neilc@samurai.com> || PGP Key ID: DB3C29FC




05 Jan 2003 17:37:34 -0500
Neil Conway <neilc@samurai.com>
Re: New Portal in Place, DNS switched ...
On 5 Jan 2003, Neil Conway wrote:

> On Sun, 2003-01-05 at 17:15, Dave Page wrote:
> > There were always ads there
> 
> Yes -- but AFAIK there were in the process of being phased out
> (furthermore, the old site only had ads on the initial mirror page,
> whereas they are much more widespread on the new site).

Good point.

Marc, would it be possible to get a look at the figures involved: cost of
hosting and income generated from ads. With these, we might be able to
think up some alternative funding arrangements which make the site(s) look
more professional whilst still covering the cost to the same extent.

Thanks,

Gavin


Mon, 6 Jan 2003 09:44:52 +1100 (EST)
Gavin Sherry <swm@linuxworld.com.au>
Re: New Portal in Place, DNS switched ...
On Sun, 5 Jan 2003, Neil Conway wrote:

> On Sun, 2003-01-05 at 17:15, Dave Page wrote:
> > There were always ads there
>
> Yes -- but AFAIK there were in the process of being phased out

Not sure where you heard this from ... there were some site that still
hadn't had them deployed on them, but there was never any intention of
phasing them out ...


Sun, 5 Jan 2003 18:52:56 -0400 (AST)
"Marc G. Fournier" <scrappy@hub.org>
Re: New Portal in Place, DNS switched ...
Neil Conway wrote:
> On Sun, 2003-01-05 at 17:15, Dave Page wrote:
> > There were always ads there
> 
> Yes -- but AFAIK there were in the process of being phased out
> (furthermore, the old site only had ads on the initial mirror page,
> whereas they are much more widespread on the new site).
> 
> > they help pay for the boxes.
> 
> Obviously, but it's VERY unprofessional for us to show ads to users on
> our website. It goes without saying, but pretty much every other
> non-trivial OSS project doesn't have ads on their main website.
> Displaying ads makes us look more like a Geocities site than a
> legitimate competitor to Oracle/DB2/etc.

Ouch, Geocities.  That hurts.

-- 
  Bruce Momjian                        |  http://candle.pha.pa.us
  pgman@candle.pha.pa.us               |  (610) 359-1001
  +  If your life is a hard drive,     |  13 Roberts Road
  +  Christ can be your backup.        |  Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073

Sun, 5 Jan 2003 21:40:54 -0500 (EST)
Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>
Re: New Portal in Place, DNS switched ...
On Sun, 5 Jan 2003, Bruce Momjian wrote:

> Neil Conway wrote:
> > On Sun, 2003-01-05 at 17:15, Dave Page wrote:
> > > There were always ads there
> >
> > Yes -- but AFAIK there were in the process of being phased out
> > (furthermore, the old site only had ads on the initial mirror page,
> > whereas they are much more widespread on the new site).
> >
> > > they help pay for the boxes.
> >
> > Obviously, but it's VERY unprofessional for us to show ads to users on
> > our website. It goes without saying, but pretty much every other
> > non-trivial OSS project doesn't have ads on their main website.
> > Displaying ads makes us look more like a Geocities site than a
> > legitimate competitor to Oracle/DB2/etc.
>
> Ouch, Geocities.  That hurts.

And if you go visit a Geocities site, its not even a close analogy ...


Sun, 5 Jan 2003 22:45:07 -0400 (AST)
"Marc G. Fournier" <scrappy@hub.org>
Re: New Portal in Place, DNS switched ...
Marc G. Fournier wrote:
> On Sun, 5 Jan 2003, Bruce Momjian wrote:
> 
> > Neil Conway wrote:
> > > On Sun, 2003-01-05 at 17:15, Dave Page wrote:
> > > > There were always ads there
> > >
> > > Yes -- but AFAIK there were in the process of being phased out
> > > (furthermore, the old site only had ads on the initial mirror page,
> > > whereas they are much more widespread on the new site).
> > >
> > > > they help pay for the boxes.
> > >
> > > Obviously, but it's VERY unprofessional for us to show ads to users on
> > > our website. It goes without saying, but pretty much every other
> > > non-trivial OSS project doesn't have ads on their main website.
> > > Displaying ads makes us look more like a Geocities site than a
> > > legitimate competitor to Oracle/DB2/etc.
> >
> > Ouch, Geocities.  That hurts.
> 
> And if you go visit a Geocities site, its not even a close analogy ...

I know ...  It was just funny.  I forgot the smiley.  :-)

-- 
  Bruce Momjian                        |  http://candle.pha.pa.us
  pgman@candle.pha.pa.us               |  (610) 359-1001
  +  If your life is a hard drive,     |  13 Roberts Road
  +  Christ can be your backup.        |  Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073

Sun, 5 Jan 2003 21:53:12 -0500 (EST)
Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>
Re: New Portal in Place, DNS switched ...
On 5 Jan 2003, Neil Conway wrote:

> Obviously, but it's VERY unprofessional for us to show ads to users on
> our website. It goes without saying, but pretty much every other
> non-trivial OSS project doesn't have ads on their main website.
> Displaying ads makes us look more like a Geocities site than a
> legitimate competitor to Oracle/DB2/etc.

I have no problem with the ads.  I disagree with the viewpoints above.


Sun, 5 Jan 2003 22:21:49 -0500 (EST)
Dan Langille <dan@langille.org>
Re: New Portal in Place, DNS switched ...
Neil Conway wrote:

>On Sun, 2003-01-05 at 17:15, Dave Page wrote:
>  
>
>>There were always ads there
>>    
>>
>
>Yes -- but AFAIK there were in the process of being phased out
>(furthermore, the old site only had ads on the initial mirror page,
>whereas they are much more widespread on the new site).
>
>  
>
>>they help pay for the boxes.
>>    
>>
>
>Obviously, but it's VERY unprofessional for us to show ads to users on
>our website. It goes without saying, but pretty much every other
>non-trivial OSS project doesn't have ads on their main website.
>Displaying ads makes us look more like a Geocities site than a
>legitimate competitor to Oracle/DB2/etc.
>
>In fact, there are several groups that provide free hosting for OSS
>projects, without requiring them to display ads on their webpages (e.g.
>SourceForge, Savannah, etc.)
>
>Cheers,
>
>Neil
>
The PHP site shows adds.

>  
>









Neil Conway wrote:

On Sun, 2003-01-05 at 17:15, Dave Page wrote:
  

There were always ads there
    


Yes -- but AFAIK there were in the process of being phased out
(furthermore, the old site only had ads on the initial mirror page,
whereas they are much more widespread on the new site).

  

they help pay for the boxes.
    


Obviously, but it's VERY unprofessional for us to show ads to users on
our website. It goes without saying, but pretty much every other
non-trivial OSS project doesn't have ads on their main website.
Displaying ads makes us look more like a Geocities site than a
legitimate competitor to Oracle/DB2/etc.

In fact, there are several groups that provide free hosting for OSS
projects, without requiring them to display ads on their webpages (e.g.
SourceForge, Savannah, etc.)

Cheers,

Neil

The PHP site shows adds.
Mon, 06 Jan 2003 13:13:19 -0500
mlw <pgsql@mohawksoft.com>
Re: New Portal in Place, DNS switched ...
On Mon, 6 Jan 2003, mlw wrote:

> The PHP site shows adds.

And I just checked ... so does Sourceforge ...


Mon, 6 Jan 2003 14:26:11 -0400 (AST)
"Marc G. Fournier" <scrappy@hub.org>
Re: New Portal in Place, DNS switched ...

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1


>> The PHP site shows adds.
>
> And I just checked ... so does Sourceforge ...

Sourceforge is not a good example: they are not a organization of open 
source people, but a a site owned by a company (OSDN, Inc.) which 
in turn is owned by another company (VA Software Corporation). 

I think it is better to compare to sites that are closer in spirit 
and mission to us. None of these have banner ads:

www.apache.org
www.perl.org
www.sendmail.org (despite the commercial ties)
www.gnupg.org
www.opensource.org
www.gimp.org
www.gnome.org

If the banner ads (as previously stated) do not bring in much revenue, 
is there a reason to keep them?


Greg Sabino Mullane greg@turnstep.com
PGP Key: 0x14964AC8 200301061347

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Mon,  6 Jan 2003 18:44:42 -0000
greg@turnstep.com
Re: New Portal in Place, DNS switched ...
On 6 Jan 2003 at 18:44, greg@turnstep.com wrote:

> If the banner ads (as previously stated) do not bring in much revenue,
> is there a reason to keep them?

This has been mentioned more than once AFAIK. It is in "payment" to 
those who have provided mirror services.
-- 
Dan Langille : http://www.langille.org/


Mon, 06 Jan 2003 14:00:21 -0500
"Dan Langille" <dan@langille.org>
Re: New Portal in Place, DNS switched ...
On Mon, 2003-01-06 at 13:26, Marc G. Fournier wrote:
> On Mon, 6 Jan 2003, mlw wrote:
> > The PHP site shows adds.

Ok -- but the vast majority (say, 95%) of OSS sites don't show ads.

> And I just checked ... so does Sourceforge ...

Not on project websites, though.

In any case, I'd be fine with showing ads if there was a demonstrated
need for them (and no reasonable alternatives could be found). However,
that doesn't seem to be the case: the argument that ads are a necessary
compensation for mirrors is not convincing IMHO, given the huge number
of other OSS projects that use mirrors, and the relatively tiny number
that show ads as a result. If there's a better reason why we need to
show ads, what is it?

Cheers,

Neil


06 Jan 2003 19:52:00 -0500
Neil Conway <neilc@samurai.com>
Re: New Portal in Place, DNS switched ...
On Mon, 6 Jan 2003, Neil Conway wrote:

> On Mon, 2003-01-06 at 13:26, Marc G. Fournier wrote:
> > On Mon, 6 Jan 2003, mlw wrote:
> > > The PHP site shows adds.
>
> Ok -- but the vast majority (say, 95%) of OSS sites don't show ads.

Guess that makes us part of the elite 5% that do, eh?   You had me worried
for awhile there that we were totally exclusive in this *wipe brow*

Mon, 6 Jan 2003 21:04:38 -0400 (AST)
"Marc G. Fournier" <scrappy@hub.org>
Re: New Portal in Place, DNS switched ...
I know I participate on this group periodically, but my last position 
was CTO at a company, and I currently run my own consulting company. I 
feel I have a pretty neutral perspective.

I don't see what the fuss is all about. Banner adds are good, if the 
PostgreSQL can get some good RELEVANT adds on its site, (a) shows 
viability, and (b) that there is some sort of revenue. Oracle and 
Microsoft "rape" their customers, of course they have no 3rd party 
banner adds, but make no mistake, there are adds for other products by 
the respective companies.

I think that, if you guys want banner adds, it is not a sin, nor is it 
unprofessional. My only suggestion is to make sure they are relevant to 
the database market. Adds that are relevant to your core competency 
enhance your message. Of course, if you post sweepstakes adds, then you 
blow it.




Marc G. Fournier wrote:

>On Mon, 6 Jan 2003, Neil Conway wrote:
>
>  
>
>>On Mon, 2003-01-06 at 13:26, Marc G. Fournier wrote:
>>    
>>
>>>On Mon, 6 Jan 2003, mlw wrote:
>>>      
>>>
>>>>The PHP site shows adds.
>>>>        
>>>>
>>Ok -- but the vast majority (say, 95%) of OSS sites don't show ads.
>>    
>>
>
>Guess that makes us part of the elite 5% that do, eh?   You had me worried
>for awhile there that we were totally exclusive in this *wipe brow*
>
>  
>







I know I participate on this group periodically, but my last position was
CTO at a company, and I currently run my own consulting company. I feel I
have a pretty neutral perspective.

I don't see what the fuss is all about. Banner adds are good, if the PostgreSQL
can get some good RELEVANT adds on its site, (a) shows viability, and (b)
that there is some sort of revenue. Oracle and Microsoft "rape" their customers,
of course they have no 3rd party banner adds, but make no mistake, there
are adds for other products by the respective companies.

I think that, if you guys want banner adds, it is not a sin, nor is it unprofessional.
My only suggestion is to make sure they are relevant to the database market.
Adds that are relevant to your core competency enhance your message. Of course,
if you post sweepstakes adds, then you blow it.




Marc G. Fournier wrote:

On Mon, 6 Jan 2003, Neil Conway wrote:

  

On Mon, 2003-01-06 at 13:26, Marc G. Fournier wrote:
    

On Mon, 6 Jan 2003, mlw wrote:
      

The PHP site shows adds.
        


Ok -- but the vast majority (say, 95%) of OSS sites don't show ads.
    


Guess that makes us part of the elite 5% that do, eh?   You had me worried
for awhile there that we were totally exclusive in this *wipe brow*
Mon, 06 Jan 2003 20:30:51 -0500
mlw <pgsql@mohawksoft.com>
Re: New Portal in Place, DNS switched ... Banner Adds