
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
 
 
The call for participation has been issued for the 2004 O'Reilly
Open Source convention, and once again, PostgreSQL has a track:
 
http://conferences.oreillynet.com/cs/os2004/create/e_sess
 
Proposals are due on February 9, 2004, and it would be nice to see
a lot of PostgreSQL talks there. The talk can be about anything
relating to PostgreSQL; it does not matter if you have never even
read the source code. Talk about how to set it up on Win32, how
your company converted from Sybase to PostgreSQL, a neat project
you built with PostgreSQL as the backend, etc.
 
Feel free to post your ideas on the advocacy list (and post replies
to that list, please). Even if you are not interested in speaking,
let everyone know what you would like to hear, and perhaps it
will inspire somebody.
 
- --
Greg Sabino Mullane greg@turnstep.com
PGP Key: 0x14964AC8 200312182022
 
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Fri, 19 Dec 2003 02:33:33 -0000
"Greg Sabino Mullane" <greg@turnstep.com>
PostgreSQL speakers needed for OSCON 2004
Greg,

> The call for participation has been issued for the 2004 O'Reilly
> Open Source convention, and once again, PostgreSQL has a track:

Hmmmm ... I think we're double-tracking here -- O'Reilly e-mailed me 
seperately today.   Just one of us should be the contact point.

Also, Jillian, are you up for helping to organize this? 

I really do think that we, as a community, should try to organize who's going 
to propose what in order to have a "complete track" for PostgreSQL this time, 
rather than just encouraging people to apply willy-nilly.

-- 
-Josh Berkus
 Aglio Database Solutions
 San Francisco


Thu, 18 Dec 2003 18:52:02 -0800
Josh Berkus <josh@agliodbs.com>
Re: PostgreSQL speakers needed for OSCON 2004
Greg,

> Hmmmm ... I think we're double-tracking here -- O'Reilly e-mailed me 
> seperately today.   Just one of us should be the contact point.

Hmmm ... not sure that came out right.   I meant "you wanna be the contact 
point?  If so, I should tell O'Reilly"

-- 
-Josh Berkus
 Aglio Database Solutions
 San Francisco


Thu, 18 Dec 2003 18:56:53 -0800
Josh Berkus <josh@agliodbs.com>
Re: PostgreSQL speakers needed for OSCON 2004
>
>
>I really do think that we, as a community, should try to organize who's going 
>to propose what in order to have a "complete track" for PostgreSQL this time, 
>rather than just encouraging people to apply willy-nilly.
>
>  
>
What about nilly-willy?




-- 
Command Prompt, Inc., home of Mammoth PostgreSQL - S/ODBC and S/JDBC
Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting.
+1-503-222-2783 - jd@commandprompt.com - http://www.commandprompt.com
Editor-N-Chief - PostgreSQl.Org - http://www.postgresql.org 



Thu, 18 Dec 2003 19:15:27 -0800
"Joshua D. Drake" <jd@commandprompt.com>
Re: PostgreSQL speakers needed for OSCON 2004
It would be nice to have some sort of knowledge
of which postgres people are speaking.  I am 
planning on submitting a talk as I did last year.

It would help us coordinate the BOF better.
We did not do a good job last year.  It would
also help us talk about some of the things that
could be better this year than last.  I have some
(ahem) opinions about this.

It would also help those of us from different coasts
spend some time talking at reasonable hours and places

I would be happy to help coordinate people in whatever
way I can for the actual fling.

This does not have anything to do with who is talking
to O'Reilly by the way.  Remember, they had a single
point of contact failure last year and caused some
hard feelings.  It is *good* that they've sent out
notices to several of us.  Now we just have to act
like we are sort of coordinated...

--elein


On Thu, Dec 18, 2003 at 07:15:27PM -0800, Joshua D. Drake wrote:
> >
> >
> >I really do think that we, as a community, should try to organize who's 
> >going to propose what in order to have a "complete track" for PostgreSQL 
> >this time, rather than just encouraging people to apply willy-nilly.
> >
> > 
> >
> What about nilly-willy?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Command Prompt, Inc., home of Mammoth PostgreSQL - S/ODBC and S/JDBC
> Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting.
> +1-503-222-2783 - jd@commandprompt.com - http://www.commandprompt.com
> Editor-N-Chief - PostgreSQl.Org - http://www.postgresql.org 
> 
> 
> 
> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
> TIP 7: don't forget to increase your free space map settings

Thu, 18 Dec 2003 20:30:46 -0800
elein <elein@varlena.com>
Re: PostgreSQL speakers needed for OSCON 2004
elein wrote:
> It would be nice to have some sort of knowledge
> of which postgres people are speaking.  I am 
> planning on submitting a talk as I did last year.

I'm thinking of doing a tutorial -- something like "Extending PostgreSQL 
with C" -- show/explain (comments/additions welcome):
  - contrib build system basics
  - building a simple scalar function
  - I/O functions and a building custom datatype
  - simple polymorphic scalar functions
  - SRF using the one-row-at-a-time api
  - SRF using a tuplestore

I think it would be nice if we had a tutorial or session on advanced use 
  of each PL -- at least for the most commonly used ones.

> It would help us coordinate the BOF better.
> We did not do a good job last year.  It would
> also help us talk about some of the things that
> could be better this year than last.  I have some
> (ahem) opinions about this.

Great -- let's hear 'em ;-)

Joe



Thu, 18 Dec 2003 21:00:37 -0800
Joe Conway <mail@joeconway.com>
Re: PostgreSQL speakers needed for OSCON 2004

On Thu, Dec 18, 2003 at 09:00:37PM -0800, Joe Conway wrote:
> elein wrote:
> >It would be nice to have some sort of knowledge
> >of which postgres people are speaking.  I am 
> >planning on submitting a talk as I did last year.
> 
> I'm thinking of doing a tutorial -- something like "Extending PostgreSQL 
> with C" -- show/explain (comments/additions welcome):
>  - contrib build system basics
>  - building a simple scalar function
>  - I/O functions and a building custom datatype
>  - simple polymorphic scalar functions
>  - SRF using the one-row-at-a-time api
>  - SRF using a tuplestore

This was the tutorial I submitted last year that was rejected.
Perhaps we will all have better luck this year.
Add the explanation of the many macros.  They and
the internal represenations of data types (varlenas :-) 
are not familiar or obvious to others.  (I'll go
through my notes for other ideas.)

> 
> I think it would be nice if we had a tutorial or session on advanced use 
>  of each PL -- at least for the most commonly used ones.
> 
> >It would help us coordinate the BOF better.
> >We did not do a good job last year.  It would
> >also help us talk about some of the things that
> >could be better this year than last.  I have some
> >(ahem) opinions about this.
> 
> Great -- let's hear 'em ;-)

In the next message...
> 
> Joe
> 

Thu, 18 Dec 2003 21:46:16 -0800
elein <elein@varlena.com>
Re: PostgreSQL speakers needed for OSCON 2004
On Thu, Dec 18, 2003 at 09:00:37PM -0800, Joe Conway wrote:
> elein wrote:
> >It would be nice to have some sort of knowledge
> >of which postgres people are speaking.  I am 
> >planning on submitting a talk as I did last year.
> 
> I'm thinking of doing a tutorial -- something like "Extending PostgreSQL 
> with C" -- show/explain (comments/additions welcome):
>  - contrib build system basics
>  - building a simple scalar function
>  - I/O functions and a building custom datatype
>  - simple polymorphic scalar functions
>  - SRF using the one-row-at-a-time api
>  - SRF using a tuplestore
> 
> I think it would be nice if we had a tutorial or session on advanced use 
>  of each PL -- at least for the most commonly used ones.
> 
> >It would help us coordinate the BOF better.
> >We did not do a good job last year.  It would
> >also help us talk about some of the things that
> >could be better this year than last.  I have some
> >(ahem) opinions about this.
> 
> Great -- let's hear 'em ;-)
> 
> Joe
> 

 From General Bits Issue #34: ( http://www.varlena.com/GeneralBits/34 )
PostgreSQL people were not particularly visible in the general milieu
of the conference. We were there, but not seen too much. 
Several of the talks in the conference and discussions in our 
birds of a feather session pointed out that open source projects 
need to establish relationships with other open source organizations. 
I know that some of us are members of more than one open source group,
but for the most part, we remain fairly isolated. 

Talk to each other. Reason things out. This is open source so steal
ideas that work! For example, we need to have more visible, vocal
and active user groups across the world, including the United States.
And perl-mongers is quite successful. What advice can we get from them?

The establishment of relationships between people and groups was
raised in many different contexts at the conference. PostgreSQL,
the database, particularly plays well with others. Is there
something in this that we can use to promote our favorite database?

One mistake that was made at least once was to bad mouth the
perceived competition. Venting one's frustration is one thing,
but, particularly with our minimal visibility, we must make a good
impression. 

Also to be noted (not from general bits):

I was the only one who hung out in the speaker room.  This is
a key place where contacts with leaders of other groups can
be made.  This is a good place to make a good impression.

We'll need to come into OSCON as a cohesive yet diverse
group and then show a united face and integrate with 
other people and groups.

Doing the people thing is hard for a lot of us.  But individually
my experience is that everyone I've met with postgresql is very
knowledgeable, friendly and personable.  

Specific Ideas:

* Pre-plan the BOF.  Make sure it is in the printed schedule.
* "Sponsor" a social outing.  A postgres dinner, bar hours
  or a walk along the river.
* Make sure all postgres speakers and tutorial instructors
  are well "marked" as such.  T-shirts or SIG stickers, 
  I suppose.  Or just clear and readable badges.
* Attend sessions besides postgres and:
  - interject how the project relates or could relate
    to postgres, tactfully
  - see how people hold good (and bad) sessions
  - listen to see what people are talking about and
    how that will integrate in your work and with postgres
    possibilities.
* Have a booth (Josh, can we have a little booth?) or a corner
  staffed by someone who can provide information and help
  people find answers to questions about postgres.

Obviously there is always more to be done.  But at very least
we should focus on visibility and friendliness.

elein


Thu, 18 Dec 2003 22:05:10 -0800
elein <elein@varlena.com>
Re: PostgreSQL speakers needed for OSCON 2004
On Friday 19 December 2003 08:22, Josh Berkus wrote:
> Greg,
>
> > The call for participation has been issued for the 2004 O'Reilly
> > Open Source convention, and once again, PostgreSQL has a track:
>
> Hmmmm ... I think we're double-tracking here -- O'Reilly e-mailed me
> seperately today.   Just one of us should be the contact point.
>
> Also, Jillian, are you up for helping to organize this?
>
> I really do think that we, as a community, should try to organize who's
> going to propose what in order to have a "complete track" for PostgreSQL
> this time, rather than just encouraging people to apply willy-nilly.

We need a central task tracking system rather than mailing list. We have 
discussed this before as well (I think)

Mailing list is not the way to go at it.. Something like OGO(open groupware) 
would be good enough I guess..

 Shridhar


Fri, 19 Dec 2003 12:28:21 +0530
Shridhar Daithankar <shridhar_daithankar@myrealbox.com>
Re: PostgreSQL speakers needed for OSCON 2004

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
 
 
Just to clarify, I am not the "contact person" for O'Reilly, I
just noticed that the call for participation was out and wanted
to share that with the community.
 
- --
Greg Sabino Mullane greg@turnstep.com
PGP Key: 0x14964AC8 200312190706
 
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Fri, 19 Dec 2003 12:07:57 -0000
"Greg Sabino Mullane" <greg@turnstep.com>
Re: PostgreSQL speakers needed for OSCON 2004

Anybody here got a running correspondance with chromatic? Who ever does 
should be the one

Robert



Greg Sabino Mullane wrote:

>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>Hash: SHA1
> 
> 
>Just to clarify, I am not the "contact person" for O'Reilly, I
>just noticed that the call for participation was out and wanted
>to share that with the community.
> 
>- --
>Greg Sabino Mullane greg@turnstep.com
>PGP Key: 0x14964AC8 200312190706
> 
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> 
>iD8DBQE/4unYvJuQZxSWSsgRAgOUAKCGz9GmirorxvFA9q8qGyHenI0QBACaA/gg
>v1qHgFl1fwI/eS3Ni6rAK5w=
>=UWV5
>-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
>
>
>---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
>TIP 1: subscribe and unsubscribe commands go to majordomo@postgresql.org
>
>  
>


Fri, 19 Dec 2003 07:32:25 -0500
Robert Bernier <robert.bernier5@sympatico.ca>
Re: PostgreSQL speakers needed for OSCON 2004
Folks,

> This does not have anything to do with who is talking
> to O'Reilly by the way.  Remember, they had a single
> point of contact failure last year and caused some
> hard feelings.  It is *good* that they've sent out
> notices to several of us.  Now we just have to act
> like we are sort of coordinated...

Yeah, it's just that they asked me yesterday if I was the "official" contact.  
I do think that one person (picked by us) should talk to O'Reilly.  Otherwise 
they're liable to receive multiple messages and get confused.

> Who's funding whom to do what at the conference?

Um ... funding?   I'm paying my own way; I presume that Bruce will get paid 
for by his employer; otherwise we're pay-as-you-go.  We probably have  a 
little money for printing stuff (like a few $100) but that's it.

Alternately, maybe it's time to try to get the fundraising operation into 
gear.  Greg?  What's our status for setup?

> Just to clarify, I am not the "contact person" for O'Reilly, I
> just noticed that the call for participation was out and wanted
> to share that with the community.

Sorry, Greg.  I thought you worked with them and might want to be the contact.

> We need a central task tracking system rather than mailing list. We have
> discussed this before as well (I think)
>
> Mailing list is not the way to go at it.. Something like OGO(open
> groupware) would be good enough I guess..

I don't remember this discussion, Shridhar.   You have a server we can get 
accounts on?  I do think that some sort of collaboration system is a good 
idea, but not if we spend effort on the collaboration system that could be 
spent on prep.

-- 
Josh Berkus
Aglio Database Solutions
San Francisco

Fri, 19 Dec 2003 09:39:58 -0800
Josh Berkus <josh@agliodbs.com>
Re: PostgreSQL speakers needed for OSCON 2004
Hello,

  As OSCON is in Portland (I think?). I might also be willing to host an 
informal get together
here at Command Prompt for everyone.

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake


elein wrote:

>On Thu, Dec 18, 2003 at 09:00:37PM -0800, Joe Conway wrote:
>  
>
>>elein wrote:
>>    
>>
>>>It would be nice to have some sort of knowledge
>>>of which postgres people are speaking.  I am 
>>>planning on submitting a talk as I did last year.
>>>      
>>>
>>I'm thinking of doing a tutorial -- something like "Extending PostgreSQL 
>>with C" -- show/explain (comments/additions welcome):
>> - contrib build system basics
>> - building a simple scalar function
>> - I/O functions and a building custom datatype
>> - simple polymorphic scalar functions
>> - SRF using the one-row-at-a-time api
>> - SRF using a tuplestore
>>    
>>
>
>This was the tutorial I submitted last year that was rejected.
>Perhaps we will all have better luck this year.
>Add the explanation of the many macros.  They and
>the internal represenations of data types (varlenas :-) 
>are not familiar or obvious to others.  (I'll go
>through my notes for other ideas.)
>
>  
>
>>I think it would be nice if we had a tutorial or session on advanced use 
>> of each PL -- at least for the most commonly used ones.
>>
>>    
>>
>>>It would help us coordinate the BOF better.
>>>We did not do a good job last year.  It would
>>>also help us talk about some of the things that
>>>could be better this year than last.  I have some
>>>(ahem) opinions about this.
>>>      
>>>
>>Great -- let's hear 'em ;-)
>>    
>>
>
>In the next message...
>  
>
>>Joe
>>
>>    
>>


-- 
Command Prompt, Inc., home of Mammoth PostgreSQL - S/ODBC and S/JDBC
Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting.
+1-503-667-4564 - jd@commandprompt.com - http://www.commandprompt.com
Mammoth PostgreSQL Replicator. Integrated Replication for PostgreSQL


Fri, 19 Dec 2003 09:52:45 -0800
"Joshua D. Drake" <jd@commandprompt.com>
Re: PostgreSQL speakers needed for OSCON 2004
Robert Bernier wrote:

>
> Anybody here got a running correspondance with chromatic? Who ever 
> does should be the one
>
I talk with chromatic occassionaly. In fact I just sent a list of 
authors over.

J




> Robert
>
>
>
> Greg Sabino Mullane wrote:
>
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>> Hash: SHA1
>>
>>
>> Just to clarify, I am not the "contact person" for O'Reilly, I
>> just noticed that the call for participation was out and wanted
>> to share that with the community.
>>
>> - --
>> Greg Sabino Mullane greg@turnstep.com
>> PGP Key: 0x14964AC8 200312190706
>>
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
>>
>> iD8DBQE/4unYvJuQZxSWSsgRAgOUAKCGz9GmirorxvFA9q8qGyHenI0QBACaA/gg
>> v1qHgFl1fwI/eS3Ni6rAK5w=
>> =UWV5
>> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>>
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
>> TIP 1: subscribe and unsubscribe commands go to majordomo@postgresql.org
>>
>>  
>>
>
>
> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
> TIP 7: don't forget to increase your free space map settings



-- 
Command Prompt, Inc., home of Mammoth PostgreSQL - S/ODBC and S/JDBC
Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting.
+1-503-667-4564 - jd@commandprompt.com - http://www.commandprompt.com
Mammoth PostgreSQL Replicator. Integrated Replication for PostgreSQL


Fri, 19 Dec 2003 09:53:57 -0800
"Joshua D. Drake" <jd@commandprompt.com>
Re: PostgreSQL speakers needed for OSCON 2004
On Thu, 2003-12-18 at 21:52, Josh Berkus wrote:
> Greg,
> 
> > The call for participation has been issued for the 2004 O'Reilly
> > Open Source convention, and once again, PostgreSQL has a track:
> 
> Hmmmm ... I think we're double-tracking here -- O'Reilly e-mailed me 
> seperately today.   Just one of us should be the contact point.
> 
> Also, Jillian, are you up for helping to organize this? 
> 
> I really do think that we, as a community, should try to organize who's going 
> to propose what in order to have a "complete track" for PostgreSQL this time, 
> rather than just encouraging people to apply willy-nilly.
> 

Here are ideas for possible presentations that either people have
mentioned to me or I have been kicking around: 

Introduction to PostgreSQL - a brief run down on features,
set-up/administration, where to get help and information, where to find
add-on software,

PostgreSQL on Windows -  Showcase postgresql native windows (hopefully),
explain how the different tools work, cover ODBC information. 

 From LRU to ARC -  explain the changes involved in the switch and the
reasoning behind it. 

Full Text Indexing with tsearch2 -  explain how it all works

Optimizing PostgreSQL queries - explain output of explain commands and
what too look for in them. Also go over logging options that can help

PostgreSQL Advanced Tools and Tricks - examples of using complex
functions / data types / operators,  using rules to make updateable
views, using triggers to make materialized views.   

Replication - give a run down of various replication solutions,
including rserv in contrib, and rserve/slony from gborg.  Potentially
highlight commercial offerings. 

PostGIS - explain what it is, how you use it, how it's handy. 

DataWarehousing with PostgreSQL - Cover improvements in 7.4 for this,
also some items in contrib. 

PostgreSQL war stories - A good example is the .org registry, but it's
been done, so showcase another "enterprise level" setup, or perhaps a
migration from Oracle/DB2/m$



Anyone care to add to the list, or claim one of these?


Robert Treat
-- 
Build A Brighter Lamp :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL


19 Dec 2003 13:41:15 -0500
Robert Treat <xzilla@users.sourceforge.net>
Re: PostgreSQL speakers needed for OSCON 2004
Robert Treat wrote:
[snip]
> DataWarehousing with PostgreSQL - Cover improvements in 7.4 for this,
> also some items in contrib. 
[snip]
> 
> Anyone care to add to the list, or claim one of these?

I was considering this one for a 45 minute presentation.

Joe



Fri, 19 Dec 2003 10:57:47 -0800
Joe Conway <mail@joeconway.com>
Re: PostgreSQL speakers needed for OSCON 2004
I like Joe's ideas about presentations on the
specific PLs.  This crosses over with Robert's
idea about advanced Tools and Tricks.

So...I'm considering both a talk and a tutorial
proposal.  I can't decide yet exactly what
I'm going to do, yet, but I need to put it
out so that if someone else wants one of
these topics we can either work together
or figure out who wants to do what.

* What is a ORDBMS?  And how does postgresql
  implement it? (talk)
* Advanced plpgsql (talk or tutorial)
* Basic plpython (talk or tutorial)
* Intro to postgresql (tutorial)
* Creating new datatypes (this might conflict
  with Joe's tutorial). (tutorial)

--elein

On Fri, Dec 19, 2003 at 01:41:15PM -0500, Robert Treat wrote:
> On Thu, 2003-12-18 at 21:52, Josh Berkus wrote:
> > Greg,
> > 
> > > The call for participation has been issued for the 2004 O'Reilly
> > > Open Source convention, and once again, PostgreSQL has a track:
> > 
> > Hmmmm ... I think we're double-tracking here -- O'Reilly e-mailed me 
> > seperately today.   Just one of us should be the contact point.
> > 
> > Also, Jillian, are you up for helping to organize this? 
> > 
> > I really do think that we, as a community, should try to organize who's going 
> > to propose what in order to have a "complete track" for PostgreSQL this time, 
> > rather than just encouraging people to apply willy-nilly.
> > 
> 
> Here are ideas for possible presentations that either people have
> mentioned to me or I have been kicking around: 
> 
> Introduction to PostgreSQL - a brief run down on features,
> set-up/administration, where to get help and information, where to find
> add-on software,
> 
> PostgreSQL on Windows -  Showcase postgresql native windows (hopefully),
> explain how the different tools work, cover ODBC information. 
> 
> >From LRU to ARC -  explain the changes involved in the switch and the
> reasoning behind it. 
> 
> Full Text Indexing with tsearch2 -  explain how it all works
> 
> Optimizing PostgreSQL queries - explain output of explain commands and
> what too look for in them. Also go over logging options that can help
> 
> PostgreSQL Advanced Tools and Tricks - examples of using complex
> functions / data types / operators,  using rules to make updateable
> views, using triggers to make materialized views.   
> 
> Replication - give a run down of various replication solutions,
> including rserv in contrib, and rserve/slony from gborg.  Potentially
> highlight commercial offerings. 
> 
> PostGIS - explain what it is, how you use it, how it's handy. 
> 
> DataWarehousing with PostgreSQL - Cover improvements in 7.4 for this,
> also some items in contrib. 
> 
> PostgreSQL war stories - A good example is the .org registry, but it's
> been done, so showcase another "enterprise level" setup, or perhaps a
> migration from Oracle/DB2/m$
> 
> 
> 
> Anyone care to add to the list, or claim one of these?
> 
> 
> Robert Treat
> -- 
> Build A Brighter Lamp :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL
> 
> 
> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
> TIP 4: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster

Fri, 19 Dec 2003 11:32:09 -0800
elein <elein@varlena.com>
Re: PostgreSQL speakers needed for OSCON 2004
Robert,

> One talk that I think would be sure to be accepted would be something on
> plphp, but I haven't personally found any great uses for it. 

Well, until PL/PHP gets SPI, it's pretty much a toy.   Joshua, how likely is 
PL/PHP to have SPI before OSCON?

-- 
-Josh Berkus
 Aglio Database Solutions
 San Francisco


Fri, 19 Dec 2003 12:49:43 -0800
Josh Berkus <josh@agliodbs.com>
Re: PostgreSQL speakers needed for OSCON 2004
On Fri, 2003-12-19 at 14:32, elein wrote:
> I like Joe's ideas about presentations on the
> specific PLs.  This crosses over with Robert's
> idea about advanced Tools and Tricks.
> 
> * Advanced plpgsql (talk or tutorial)
> * Basic plpython (talk or tutorial)

One talk that I think would be sure to be accepted would be something on
plphp, but I haven't personally found any great uses for it. Joe's talk
last year on plR made a lot of sense, since it covered a lot of items
that you really couldn't do in the other pl's.  However, with
plphp/pltcl/plpython/plperl I don't see anything that stands out.
Perhaps I should take a swing through your talk from last year on
plpython...is it on the web anywhere?

Robert Treat
-- 
Build A Brighter Lamp :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL


19 Dec 2003 16:00:24 -0500
Robert Treat <xzilla@users.sourceforge.net>
Re: PostgreSQL speakers needed for OSCON 2004

>Well, until PL/PHP gets SPI, it's pretty much a toy.   Joshua, how likely is 
>PL/PHP to have SPI before OSCON?
>
>  
>
In july? Extremely likely as well as plPerl.





-- 
Command Prompt, Inc., home of Mammoth PostgreSQL - S/ODBC and S/JDBC
Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting.
+1-503-667-4564 - jd@commandprompt.com - http://www.commandprompt.com
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Fri, 19 Dec 2003 13:36:41 -0800
"Joshua D. Drake" <jd@commandprompt.com>
Re: PostgreSQL speakers needed for OSCON 2004
Josh Berkus wrote:
> Folks,
> 
> > This does not have anything to do with who is talking
> > to O'Reilly by the way.  Remember, they had a single
> > point of contact failure last year and caused some
> > hard feelings.  It is *good* that they've sent out
> > notices to several of us.  Now we just have to act
> > like we are sort of coordinated...
> 
> Yeah, it's just that they asked me yesterday if I was the "official" contact.  
> I do think that one person (picked by us) should talk to O'Reilly.  Otherwise 
> they're liable to receive multiple messages and get confused.
> 
> > Who's funding whom to do what at the conference?
> 
> Um ... funding?   I'm paying my own way; I presume that Bruce will get paid 
> for by his employer; otherwise we're pay-as-you-go.  We probably have  a 
> little money for printing stuff (like a few $100) but that's it.

I never get funding from SRA for these trips (except Japan) --- the
presenters usually pay for my trip.  In the O'Reilly case, I usually get
paid for a tutorial, but I don't think I am going to be sending in a
tutorial proposal this year to encourage others to make presentations.

-- 
  Bruce Momjian                        |  http://candle.pha.pa.us
  pgman@candle.pha.pa.us               |  (610) 359-1001
  +  If your life is a hard drive,     |  13 Roberts Road
  +  Christ can be your backup.        |  Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073

Fri, 19 Dec 2003 19:37:26 -0500 (EST)
Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>
Re: PostgreSQL speakers needed for OSCON 2004
On Friday 19 December 2003 23:09, Josh Berkus wrote:
> I don't remember this discussion, Shridhar.   You have a server we can get
> accounts on?  I do think that some sort of collaboration system is a good
> idea, but not if we spend effort on the collaboration system that could be
> spent on prep.

I agree with you. Unfortunately I don't have access to any servers. In fact I 
don't have home internet connectivity as yet which hinders(a lot) whatever I 
could do for postgresql..:-(

Hope to get it sometime soon..

 Shridhar


Sat, 20 Dec 2003 13:19:48 +0530
Shridhar Daithankar <shridhar_daithankar@myrealbox.com>
Re: PostgreSQL speakers needed for OSCON 2004

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
 
 
> Alternately, maybe it's time to try to get the fundraising operation into
> gear.  Greg?  What's our status for setup?
 
My goal is to have everything done by January 31st.
 
>> Just to clarify, I am not the "contact person" for O'Reilly, I
>> just noticed that the call for participation was out and wanted
>> to share that with the community.
>
> Sorry, Greg.  I thought you worked with them and might want to be
> the contact.
 
I didn't know we had an official contact per se, but if we did, I
always assumed it was Bruce. Wasn't he involved in it last year?
FWIW, I know a few people at O'Reilly (including chromatic).
 
Things I would really, really like to see at OSCON:
 
* PostgreSQL t-shirts. (I've done some research on this - separate thread?)
 
* State of the union address for PostgreSQL.
 
- --
Greg Sabino Mullane greg@turnstep.com
PGP Key: 0x14964AC8 200312201027
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=DDZk
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----



Sat, 20 Dec 2003 15:29:16 -0000
"Greg Sabino Mullane" <greg@turnstep.com>
Re: PostgreSQL speakers needed for OSCON 2004
Greg Sabino Mullane wrote:
[ There is text before PGP section. ]
> 
[ PGP not available, raw data follows ]
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>  
>  
> > Alternately, maybe it's time to try to get the fundraising operation into
> > gear.  Greg?  What's our status for setup?
>  
> My goal is to have everything done by January 31st.
>  
> >> Just to clarify, I am not the "contact person" for O'Reilly, I
> >> just noticed that the call for participation was out and wanted
> >> to share that with the community.
> >
> > Sorry, Greg.  I thought you worked with them and might want to be
> > the contact.
>  
> I didn't know we had an official contact per se, but if we did, I
> always assumed it was Bruce. Wasn't he involved in it last year?
> FWIW, I know a few people at O'Reilly (including chromatic).
>  
> Things I would really, really like to see at OSCON:
>  
> * PostgreSQL t-shirts. (I've done some research on this - separate thread?)
>  
> * State of the union address for PostgreSQL.

No one has contacted me, so if they contacted Josh, he is the contact
now.

I am not even sure if I should be going to O'Reilly now that we have
other people involved.  Perhaps I should continue going to the events
that need me to attend.  Looks like the O'Reilly conference is in good
hands.

-- 
  Bruce Momjian                        |  http://candle.pha.pa.us
  pgman@candle.pha.pa.us               |  (610) 359-1001
  +  If your life is a hard drive,     |  13 Roberts Road
  +  Christ can be your backup.        |  Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073

Sat, 20 Dec 2003 11:22:11 -0500 (EST)
Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>
Re: PostgreSQL speakers needed for OSCON 2004

>>Alternately, maybe it's time to try to get the fundraising operation into
>>gear.  Greg?  What's our status for setup?
> 
>  
> My goal is to have everything done by January 31st.

Speaking of fund raising, SourceForge has just started a 'donations' 
system whereby people can donate money to projects.  Maybe you want to 
enable it on the PostgreSQL project.

We at the phpPgAdmin project don't really have any use for donations, 
but we could just forward them all through to the PostgreSQL project?

Would this be at all useful?

Chris

Sun, 21 Dec 2003 09:46:41 +0800
Christopher Kings-Lynne <chriskl@familyhealth.com.au>
Re: PostgreSQL speakers needed for OSCON 2004
On Sun, 21 Dec 2003, Christopher Kings-Lynne wrote:

>
> >>Alternately, maybe it's time to try to get the fundraising operation into
> >>gear.  Greg?  What's our status for setup?
> >
> >
> > My goal is to have everything done by January 31st.
>
> Speaking of fund raising, SourceForge has just started a 'donations'
> system whereby people can donate money to projects.  Maybe you want to
> enable it on the PostgreSQL project.
>
> We at the phpPgAdmin project don't really have any use for donations,
> but we could just forward them all through to the PostgreSQL project?
>
> Would this be at all useful?

Someone mentioned that the 'fees' were relatively high though ... that you
lose a fair amount off the top *to* Sourceforge?

----
Marc G. Fournier           Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org)
Email: scrappy@hub.org           Yahoo!: yscrappy              ICQ: 7615664

Sat, 20 Dec 2003 22:16:06 -0400 (AST)
"Marc G. Fournier" <scrappy@postgresql.org>
Re: PostgreSQL speakers needed for OSCON 2004
Christopher Kings-Lynne <chriskl@familyhealth.com.au> writes:
> Speaking of fund raising, SourceForge has just started a 'donations' 
> system whereby people can donate money to projects.  Maybe you want to 
> enable it on the PostgreSQL project.

Uh ... there is no PostgreSQL project on SourceForge, AFAIK.

			regards, tom lane

Sat, 20 Dec 2003 22:54:13 -0500
Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
Re: [HACKERS] PostgreSQL speakers needed for OSCON 2004 
tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us (Tom Lane) wrote:
> Christopher Kings-Lynne <chriskl@familyhealth.com.au> writes:
>> Speaking of fund raising, SourceForge has just started a 'donations' 
>> system whereby people can donate money to projects.  Maybe you want to 
>> enable it on the PostgreSQL project.
>
> Uh ... there is no PostgreSQL project on SourceForge, AFAIK.

Uh, you might be surprised....

<http://pgsql.sourceforge.net/>
<http://sourceforge.net/projects/pgsql/>
-- 
(format nil "~S@~S" "cbbrowne" "ntlug.org")
http://cbbrowne.com/info/sgml.html
Rules of the  Evil Overlord #43. "I will maintain  a healthy amount of
skepticism when  I capture the beautiful  rebel and she  claims she is
attracted  to my  power  and good  looks  and will  gladly betray  her
companions if I just let her in on my plans."
<http://www.eviloverlord.com/>

Sat, 20 Dec 2003 23:30:57 -0500
Christopher Browne <cbbrowne@acm.org>
Re: [pgsql-advocacy] PostgreSQL speakers needed for OSCON 2004
>>
>>Would this be at all useful?
>>    
>>
>
>Someone mentioned that the 'fees' were relatively high though ... that you
>lose a fair amount off the top *to* Sourceforge?
>
>  
>
If we were going to do this, I would suggest just going right through 
paypal.



>----
>Marc G. Fournier           Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org)
>Email: scrappy@hub.org           Yahoo!: yscrappy              ICQ: 7615664
>
>---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
>TIP 4: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
>  
>


-- 
Command Prompt, Inc., home of Mammoth PostgreSQL - S/ODBC and S/JDBC
Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting.
+1-503-222-2783 - jd@commandprompt.com - http://www.commandprompt.com
Editor-N-Chief - PostgreSQl.Org - http://www.postgresql.org 













Would this be at all useful?
    


Someone mentioned that the 'fees' were relatively high though ... that you
lose a fair amount off the top *to* Sourceforge?

  

If we were going to do this, I would suggest just going right through
paypal. 




----
Marc G. Fournier           Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org)
Email: scrappy@hub.org           Yahoo!: yscrappy              ICQ: 7615664

---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
TIP 4: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
  



-- 
Command Prompt, Inc., home of Mammoth PostgreSQL - S/ODBC and S/JDBC
Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting.
+1-503-222-2783 - jd@commandprompt.com - http://www.commandprompt.com
Editor-N-Chief - PostgreSQl.Org - http://www.postgresql.org
Sun, 21 Dec 2003 12:26:03 -0800
"Joshua D. Drake" <jd@commandprompt.com>
Re: PostgreSQL speakers needed for OSCON 2004
On Sun, 21 Dec 2003, Joshua D. Drake wrote:

>
> >>
> >>Would this be at all useful?
> >>
> >>
> >
> >Someone mentioned that the 'fees' were relatively high though ... that you
> >lose a fair amount off the top *to* Sourceforge?
> >
> >
> >
> If we were going to do this, I would suggest just going right through
> paypal.

I'd rather pay the high fees and actually have access to the money ...
Paypal I'm 110% *against* ... they have had *way* too many problems.  In
fact, there was a time when we ourselves setup the whole paypal account
and were looking at moving to it, until our clients started telling us
they wouldn't use it.  We, as a business, have had something like 25 "new
clients" sign up in the past month that its turning out are cards stolen
from clients who made purchases through paypal in the recent past ...

We (ie. Hub) just went through re-evaluating our online credit card
services, and are currently in the middle of moving our accounts to a
company called PaySystems (http://www.paysystems.com) that we've found to
have some of the better fees, and have yet to any major complaints about
their services ... we haven't found any major complaints about our current
one, but we just find we're losing too much money in the way of fees ...

----
Marc G. Fournier           Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org)
Email: scrappy@hub.org           Yahoo!: yscrappy              ICQ: 7615664

Sun, 21 Dec 2003 18:09:54 -0400 (AST)
"Marc G. Fournier" <scrappy@postgresql.org>
Re: PostgreSQL speakers needed for OSCON 2004
On 21 Dec 2003 at 18:09, Marc G. Fournier wrote:

> We (ie. Hub) just went through re-evaluating our online credit card
> services, and are currently in the middle of moving our accounts to a
> company called PaySystems (http://www.paysystems.com) that we've found
> to have some of the better fees, and have yet to any major complaints
> about their services ... we haven't found any major complaints about
> our current one, but we just find we're losing too much money in the
> way of fees ...

I have been using http://www.nstarsolutions.com/ for several years.  
I recommend them for credit card payments.  They suit my needs. YMMV.
-- 
Dan Langille : http://www.langille.org/


Sun, 21 Dec 2003 17:17:37 -0500
"Dan Langille" <dan@langille.org>
Re: PostgreSQL speakers needed for OSCON 2004
On Sun, 21 Dec 2003, Dan Langille wrote:

> On 21 Dec 2003 at 18:09, Marc G. Fournier wrote:
>
> > We (ie. Hub) just went through re-evaluating our online credit card
> > services, and are currently in the middle of moving our accounts to a
> > company called PaySystems (http://www.paysystems.com) that we've found
> > to have some of the better fees, and have yet to any major complaints
> > about their services ... we haven't found any major complaints about
> > our current one, but we just find we're losing too much money in the
> > way of fees ...
>
> I have been using http://www.nstarsolutions.com/ for several years.
> I recommend them for credit card payments.  They suit my needs. YMMV.

They look like an e-commerce outsourcing site, and not just credit card
processing ... rates look reasonable, though, and they don't look like
they have a 'monthly fee' associated with their service(s), based on their
'Special Features' page?

The fun part, we found, is there are sooooo many options available now,
compared to even a couple of years ago ... comparison shop'ng tends to be
fun :)

 ----
Marc G. Fournier           Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org)
Email: scrappy@hub.org           Yahoo!: yscrappy              ICQ: 7615664

Sun, 21 Dec 2003 19:43:07 -0400 (AST)
"Marc G. Fournier" <scrappy@postgresql.org>
Re: PostgreSQL speakers needed for OSCON 2004


Marc G. Fournier wrote:

>On Sun, 21 Dec 2003, Joshua D. Drake wrote:
>
>  
>
>>>>Would this be at all useful?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>Someone mentioned that the 'fees' were relatively high though ... that you
>>>lose a fair amount off the top *to* Sourceforge?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>If we were going to do this, I would suggest just going right through
>>paypal.
>>    
>>
>
>I'd rather pay the high fees and actually have access to the money ...
>Paypal I'm 110% *against* ... they have had *way* too many problems.  In
>fact, there was a time when we ourselves setup the whole paypal account
>and were looking at moving to it, until our clients started telling us
>they wouldn't use it.  We, as a business, have had something like 25 "new
>clients" sign up in the past month that its turning out are cards stolen
>from clients who made purchases through paypal in the recent past ...
>
>We (ie. Hub) just went through re-evaluating our online credit card
>services, and are currently in the middle of moving our accounts to a
>company called PaySystems (http://www.paysystems.com) that we've found to
>have some of the better fees, and have yet to any major complaints about
>their services ... we haven't found any major complaints about our current
>one, but we just find we're losing too much money in the way of fees ...
>  
>

Agreed. You might also look at http://www.2checkout.com/ - I have heard 
they are OK, and their fees don't look outrageous. I also have a friend 
who runs a web payment service, who might be able to help. I can ask him 
if people are interested.

cheers

andrew




Sun, 21 Dec 2003 20:45:11 -0500
Andrew Dunstan <andrew@dunslane.net>
Re: [pgsql-advocacy] PostgreSQL speakers needed for OSCON

>I'd rather pay the high fees and actually have access to the money ...
>Paypal I'm 110% *against* ... they have had *way* too many problems.  In
>fact, there was a time when we ourselves setup the whole paypal account
>and were looking at moving to it, until our clients started telling us
>they wouldn't use it.  We, as a business, have had something like 25 "new
>clients" sign up in the past month that its turning out are cards stolen
>from clients who made purchases through paypal in the recent past ...
>  
>
All due respect but that is just bad mojo in general. We have had zero 
problems
with paypal. We also don't use them as our primary payment. We use a real
merchant account and checking account for that.

However paypal is good for a lot of things. Namely you want to provide the
most ways to get paid (perfect for donations). It has also greatly increased
its security and viability sense that really big billion dollar company 
call E-bay
bought it.

>We (ie. Hub) just went through re-evaluating our online credit card
>services, and are currently in the middle of moving our accounts to a
>company called PaySystems (http://www.paysystems.com) that we've found to
>  
>
We use Echo, which also accepts electronic check but remember we are talking
about donations here, not a for profit accepting credit cards.

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake




>have some of the better fees, and have yet to any major complaints about
>their services ... we haven't found any major complaints about our current
>one, but we just find we're losing too much money in the way of fees ...
>
>----
>Marc G. Fournier           Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org)
>Email: scrappy@hub.org           Yahoo!: yscrappy              ICQ: 7615664
>  
>


-- 
Command Prompt, Inc., home of Mammoth PostgreSQL - S/ODBC and S/JDBC
Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting.
+1-503-667-4564 - jd@commandprompt.com - http://www.commandprompt.com
Mammoth PostgreSQL Replicator. Integrated Replication for PostgreSQL


Mon, 22 Dec 2003 09:31:55 -0800
"Joshua D. Drake" <jd@commandprompt.com>
Re: PostgreSQL speakers needed for OSCON 2004
On 22 Dec 2003 at 9:31, Joshua D. Drake wrote:

> All due respect but that is just bad mojo in general. We have had zero
> problems with paypal. We also don't use them as our primary payment.
> We use a real merchant account and checking account for that.

and FWIW, I've never had any Paypal problems. 
-- 
Dan Langille : http://www.langille.org/


Mon, 22 Dec 2003 13:21:53 -0500
"Dan Langille" <dan@langille.org>
Re: PostgreSQL speakers needed for OSCON 2004

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
 
 
> No one has contacted me, so if they contacted Josh, he is the
> contact now.
 
Josh, anything we should know? Can we get a State of the Union?
 
> I am not even sure if I should be going to O'Reilly now that we have
> other people involved.  Perhaps I should continue going to the events
> that need me to attend.  Looks like the O'Reilly conference is in good
> hands.
 
Good one, Bruce! :)
 
Seriously, I really hope you are attending. You are the most public face
of PostgreSQL, and your absence would be sorely missed.
 
- --
Greg Sabino Mullane greg@turnstep.com
PGP Key: 0x14964AC8 200312302225
 
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=knrg
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Wed, 31 Dec 2003 03:26:21 -0000
"Greg Sabino Mullane" <greg@turnstep.com>
Re: PostgreSQL speakers needed for OSCON 2004
Greg Sabino Mullane wrote:
[ There is text before PGP section. ]
> 
[ PGP not available, raw data follows ]
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>  
>  
> > No one has contacted me, so if they contacted Josh, he is the
> > contact now.
>  
> Josh, anything we should know? Can we get a State of the Union?
>  
> > I am not even sure if I should be going to O'Reilly now that we have
> > other people involved.  Perhaps I should continue going to the events
> > that need me to attend.  Looks like the O'Reilly conference is in good
> > hands.
>  
> Good one, Bruce! :)
>  
> Seriously, I really hope you are attending. You are the most public face
> of PostgreSQL, and your absence would be sorely missed.

I was hoping no one would say that.  :-)

Anyway, I will not submit any presentations, and let's see where I have
to be in July.  If there isn't anything else, I will try to go to
O'Reilly.  I know LinuxTag is coming, I think in July, so I am not sure.

Anyway, it seems like there is a critical mass of folks at O'Reilly that
the event will be a success no matter what.

-- 
  Bruce Momjian                        |  http://candle.pha.pa.us
  pgman@candle.pha.pa.us               |  (610) 359-1001
  +  If your life is a hard drive,     |  13 Roberts Road
  +  Christ can be your backup.        |  Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073

Tue, 30 Dec 2003 22:53:52 -0500 (EST)
Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>
Re: PostgreSQL speakers needed for OSCON 2004

> > No one has contacted me, so if they contacted Josh, he is the
> > contact now.
>  
> Josh, anything we should know? Can we get a State of the Union?

Me Josh or JoshB?

J



>  
> > I am not even sure if I should be going to O'Reilly now that we have
> > other people involved.  Perhaps I should continue going to the events
> > that need me to attend.  Looks like the O'Reilly conference is in good
> > hands.
>  
> Good one, Bruce! :)
>  
> Seriously, I really hope you are attending. You are the most public face
> of PostgreSQL, and your absence would be sorely missed.
>  
> - --
> Greg Sabino Mullane greg@turnstep.com
> PGP Key: 0x14964AC8 200312302225
>  
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
>  
> iD8DBQE/8kHevJuQZxSWSsgRAnyAAKDMiYEiQF/kXl7MdIuqGaR/efePuQCgq/ER
> AmFAtrw7Na6x5wHXsEJlScY=
> =knrg
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> 
> 
> 
> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
> TIP 4: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
-- 
Command Prompt, Inc., home of Mammoth PostgreSQL - S/ODBC and S/JDBC
Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting.
+1-503-667-4564 - jd@commandprompt.com - http://www.commandprompt.com
Mammoth PostgreSQL Replicator. Integrated Replication for PostgreSQL



Tue, 30 Dec 2003 20:25:08 -0800
"Joshua D. Drake" <jd@commandprompt.com>
Re: PostgreSQL speakers needed for OSCON 2004

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
 
 
>>> No one has contacted me, so if they contacted Josh, he is the
>> contact now.
>>
>> Josh, anything we should know? Can we get a State of the Union?
 
> Me Josh or JoshB?
 
Um, whichever Josh that Bruce was referring to when I quoted him. :)
(Pretty sure that it was the other Josh)
 
- --
Greg Sabino Mullane greg@turnstep.com
PGP Key: 0x14964AC8 200312310658
 
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=roW6
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Wed, 31 Dec 2003 12:01:55 -0000
"Greg Sabino Mullane" <greg@turnstep.com>
Re: PostgreSQL speakers needed for OSCON 2004
Guys,

> Um, whichever Josh that Bruce was referring to when I quoted him. :)
> (Pretty sure that it was the other Josh)

Me, I think.   Sorry, I've been out of town.   

I will be trying to coordinate this next week, since I definitely will be 
going to OSCON.

What deal does OSCON offer speakers?  

-- 
-Josh Berkus
 Aglio Database Solutions
 San Francisco


Mon, 5 Jan 2004 15:48:36 -0800
Josh Berkus <josh@agliodbs.com>
Re: PostgreSQL speakers needed for OSCON 2004
Guys,

> and FWIW, I've never had any Paypal problems. 

Most of us are remembering the Abiword debacle, where a someone robbed 
Abiword's donations account by exploiting a known flaw in Paypal's system, 
and when the Abiword people complained Paypal cancelled their account and 
threatened them with litigation. Despite the change of management at Paypal, 
neither an apology nor a restoration of funds has been made to Abiword. 

Also, Paypal continues to require an agreement which says that they are not 
responsible for malfeasance even by one of their employees or because failure 
to fix a known security flaw.   And EBay hasn't exactly had a stellar track 
record when it comes to fraud claims.

While on a risk management side, we can simple clear our Paypal account weekly 
and be relatively safe.   But I'm quite set against validating Paypal's way 
of doing business by using them.

-- 
-Josh Berkus
 Aglio Database Solutions
 San Francisco


Mon, 5 Jan 2004 16:03:15 -0800
Josh Berkus <josh@agliodbs.com>
Re: Paypal WAS: PostgreSQL speakers needed for OSCON 2004
All expenses paid plus spending allowance for those people who do 
tutorials (3hr, 6hr sessions)

By the way it seems I have a shot of being accepted to putting on a half 
day lecture on data mining using postgres. Stay tuned :-)




Josh Berkus wrote:

>What deal does OSCON offer speakers?  
>
>  
>


Mon, 05 Jan 2004 19:20:26 -0500
Robert Bernier <robert.bernier5@sympatico.ca>
Re: PostgreSQL speakers needed for OSCON 2004
Josh Berkus wrote:

>Guys,
>
>  
>
>>and FWIW, I've never had any Paypal problems. 
>>    
>>
>
>Most of us are remembering the Abiword debacle, where a someone robbed 
>Abiword's donations account by exploiting a known flaw in Paypal's system, 
>and when the Abiword people complained Paypal cancelled their account and 
>threatened them with litigation. Despite the change of management at Paypal, 
>neither an apology nor a restoration of funds has been made to Abiword. 
>  
>
That is not true. Paypal did return the money, see:

http://www.abisource.com/information/news/2002/awn115.phtml

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake


-- 
Command Prompt, Inc., home of Mammoth PostgreSQL - S/ODBC and S/JDBC
Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting.
+1-503-667-4564 - jd@commandprompt.com - http://www.commandprompt.com
Mammoth PostgreSQL Replicator. Integrated Replication for PostgreSQL


Mon, 05 Jan 2004 18:19:15 -0800
"Joshua D. Drake" <jd@commandprompt.com>
Re: Paypal WAS: PostgreSQL speakers needed for OSCON

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
 
 
> What deal does OSCON offer speakers?
 
- From the page at
http://conferences.oreillynet.com/cs/os2004/create/e_sess
 
"All presenters whose talks are accepted (excluding Lightning Talks)
will receive free registration at the conference. For each half-day
tutorial, the presenter receives one night's accommodation, a
limited travel allowance, and an honorarium. We give tutors and
speakers registration to the convention, and tutors are eligible
for a travel allowance: up to US$300 from the west coast of the
USA, up to US$500 from the east coast of the USA, up to US$800
from outside the USA."
 
All in all, a very good deal. Let's see lots of PostgreSQL
proposals!
 
- --
Greg Sabino Mullane greg@turnstep.com
PGP Key: 0x14964AC8 200401060653
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
 
iD8DBQE/+qKlvJuQZxSWSsgRAmHVAJ9vP8prk/pp6TMZ43rzlSDxXqQI9ACdFqij
4EDAS9Pu+A0AOBqYRdIJo+Y=
=5L/C
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----



Tue,  6 Jan 2004 11:58:04 -0000
"Greg Sabino Mullane" <greg@turnstep.com>
Re: PostgreSQL speakers needed for OSCON 2004
Josh,

> That is not true. Paypal did return the money, see:
> 
> http://www.abisource.com/information/news/2002/awn115.phtml

Hmmm... odd.   I talked to one of the Abiword people about it just in 
November, and they said that the money was never returned.  Will ask for 
clarification.

-- 
-Josh Berkus
 Aglio Database Solutions
 San Francisco


Tue, 6 Jan 2004 09:11:50 -0800
Josh Berkus <josh@agliodbs.com>
Re: Paypal WAS: PostgreSQL speakers needed for OSCON 2004
Josh,

> That is not true. Paypal did return the money, see:
> 
> http://www.abisource.com/information/news/2002/awn115.phtml

Odd.   I was told by an Abiword person in November that the money was never 
returned; I will contact them to clarify.

-- 
-Josh Berkus
 Aglio Database Solutions
 San Francisco


Tue, 6 Jan 2004 09:43:44 -0800
Josh Berkus <josh@agliodbs.com>
Re: Paypal WAS: PostgreSQL speakers needed for OSCON 2004
Josh:

> Odd.   I was told by an Abiword person in November that the money was never 
> returned; I will contact them to clarify.

OK, clarified: what Marc had *meant* was that Paypal did not cough up (or 
event respond to e-mails or faxes) until the Abiword theft story got 
slashdotted.   

Still doesn't really improve my impression of PayPal ....

This is similar to a discussion we had on OpenOffice.org regarding Kazaa.   
Kazaa had offered to let the OOo 1.0 distribution be a free pilot for their 
"Kazaa Gold" service.   We discussed it, and decided that participating in 
this program would be effectively putting OOo's "stamp of approval" on 
Kazaa's whole business model, of which we were not fond, and declined.

For similar reasons, I would not favor setting up a donations account through 
PayPal.   However unlikely it is that PG would come to harm through PayPal, 
the company has not changed its customer-abusive written policies and I would 
not want to do anything that would encourage more people signing up with 
them.

Of course, I could be outvoted ....

-- 
-Josh Berkus
 Aglio Database Solutions
 San Francisco


Tue, 6 Jan 2004 11:04:03 -0800
Josh Berkus <josh@agliodbs.com>
Re: Paypal WAS: PostgreSQL speakers needed for OSCON 2004
>
>
>For similar reasons, I would not favor setting up a donations account through 
>PayPal.   However unlikely it is that PG would come to harm through PayPal, 
>the company has not changed its customer-abusive written policies and I would 
>not want to do anything that would encourage more people signing up with 
>them.
>
>  
>
First let me say that I am not "voting" for PayPal as much as I am 
trying to make sure we make decisions based
on actual facts. I do have question on this though... I read the PayPal 
terms of service and it seems to me that
they are fairly upfront about their service.

What is it that you feel is customer-abusive about their policies?

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake




>Of course, I could be outvoted ....
>
>  
>


-- 
Command Prompt, Inc., home of Mammoth PostgreSQL - S/ODBC and S/JDBC
Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting.
+1-503-222-2783 - jd@commandprompt.com - http://www.commandprompt.com



Tue, 06 Jan 2004 11:39:45 -0800
"Joshua D. Drake" <jd@commandprompt.com>
Re: Paypal WAS: PostgreSQL speakers needed for OSCON
Josh,

> What is it that you feel is customer-abusive about their policies?

It's mostly in the 25-page Terms Of Service document, which I can no longer 
access without having an account (which I do not).   More or less, it amounts 
to your having to agree that you are not entitled to collect any damages from 
Paypal less than $10,000 if they don't want to give them (to be specific, you 
have to be awarded damages by an arbitrator selected by Paypal).

I have to admit that I've also heavily perused paypalsucks.com, and was 
discouraged by the number of reports there in 2002.  And there's the 
class-action lawsuit still proceeding in California and Nebraska.

However, looking at paypalsucks.com, the number of serious angry-customer 
reports seems to have decreased sharply in 2003.   This may indicate a change 
of practice by Paypal in the wake of negative publicity.   Also, apparently 
in a month they will be supervised by the British Financial Authority, which 
has *got* to mean some cleaning house.

-- 
-Josh Berkus
 Aglio Database Solutions
 San Francisco


Tue, 6 Jan 2004 12:08:18 -0800
Josh Berkus <josh@agliodbs.com>
Re: Paypal 
On Tue, 2004-01-06 at 14:04, Josh Berkus wrote:
> Josh:
> 
> > Odd.   I was told by an Abiword person in November that the money was never 
> > returned; I will contact them to clarify.
> 
> OK, clarified: what Marc had *meant* was that Paypal did not cough up (or 
> event respond to e-mails or faxes) until the Abiword theft story got 
> slashdotted.   
> 
> Still doesn't really improve my impression of PayPal ....
> 
> This is similar to a discussion we had on OpenOffice.org regarding Kazaa.   
> Kazaa had offered to let the OOo 1.0 distribution be a free pilot for their 
> "Kazaa Gold" service.   We discussed it, and decided that participating in 
> this program would be effectively putting OOo's "stamp of approval" on 
> Kazaa's whole business model, of which we were not fond, and declined.
> 

Help me out here... what's your perceived difference between kazaa and
bittorrent?  

> For similar reasons, I would not favor setting up a donations account through 
> PayPal.   However unlikely it is that PG would come to harm through PayPal, 
> the company has not changed its customer-abusive written policies and I would 
> not want to do anything that would encourage more people signing up with 
> them.
>

yeesh... given that AbiWord themselves still use paypal for donations
(http://www.abisource.com/information/news/donation-abiword.phtml) I
think that folks who avoid paypal based on that incident are off the
mark.  Not saying there aren't a lot of other reasons you might want to
avoid using them, but if they're good enough for Abiword....

Robert Treat
-- 
Build A Brighter Lamp :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL


06 Jan 2004 15:21:11 -0500
Robert Treat <xzilla@users.sourceforge.net>
Re: Paypal WAS: PostgreSQL speakers needed for
Robert,

> Help me out here... what's your perceived difference between kazaa and
> bittorrent?  

1) Bittorrent provides a secure way to certify downloaded content an prevent 
viruses from being inserted in the distribution.  The method offered through 
the Kazaa Gold service at the time of its introduction was believed to be 
easily circumvented.
2) At the time we made the decision, Kazaa was bundling spyware with thier 
client.   I don't know whether they do now.
3) Also that season, Kazaa had been found to be a virus vector for Windows 
machines due to poor security code and they got a lot of (deserved) negative 
publicity for this.  This issue has since been fixed.
4) Finally, Kazaa is used by some people to distribute digital content in 
violation of the owner's copyrights.   The OOo steering committee felt that 
using Kazaa to distribute OpenOffice.org would create an association in the 
public mind between Open Source and music piracy; a perception that Microsoft 
was doing their best to encourage as well.

Bittorrent has none of these issues.   Were we to consider using Kazaa to 
distribute PostgreSQL (unlikely, since Kazaa is Windows-only) we would need 
to consider these issues carefully as well.    And keep in mind that we did 
*not* reject Kazaa's offer outright, since Kazaa made the offer in good faith 
and they and some of our community though that it would be good for both OOo 
and Kazaa.   As I recall, we debated it for the better part of a month.

Anyway, it sounds like I'm alone in my distrust of Paypal, so maybe we should 
drop it?

-- 
-Josh Berkus
 Aglio Database Solutions
 San Francisco


Tue, 6 Jan 2004 12:32:36 -0800
Josh Berkus <josh@agliodbs.com>
Re: Paypal WAS: PostgreSQL speakers needed for
>
>It's mostly in the 25-page Terms Of Service document, which I can no longer 
>access without having an account (which I do not).  
>

You can access it right here:

http://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=p/gen/ua/ua-outside

They also include information about FDIC pass through insurance here:

http://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=p/gen/fdic-outside

The above link also includes links to the banks where the money is kept 
and an
additional link to the user agreement.

And if we keep a balance with them, we can turn it into a Money Market 
account.

They even have a fairly extensive privacy policy.

Also per paypalsucks.com, although I have not read the entire site it 
appears to be
fairly inaccurate to real facts.

PaypalSucks says:
- It is difficult to find the phone number to Paypal:
It was very easy to find under About us, and under the privacy 
agreement. It was easier to find
their phone number than many other "Online Businesses"

- PaypalSucks says: According to PayPal accepting their ToS (Terms of 
Service) _in effect_ means you *waive your rights
- to credit card consumer protection laws, and that you may not issue a 
chargeback for anything you purchase -using your credit card and PayPal 
account that you are unsatisfied with.* Is this legal? We don't know. 
But it's how - Paypal operates.

Actually paypal has extensive protection policies including buyer and 
seller which is a rarity. Visa for example HEAVILY
favors the buyer which is a real pain the but for a lot of legitamate 
business that deal with fraudulent customers.


Now all of this may be the way "it used to be", but I don't think  that 
is the way it is anymore. Paypal has become
the preferred method of payment per Ebay (for obvious reasons) and that 
carries quite a bit of responsibility.

I am not saying they are perfect but EBay has done a lot of good things 
and I personally find that the good far
out weighs the bad.

It is kind of like the old saying, "One bad voice is heard by a million 
ears. A million good voices are only heard by one ear."
(o.k. I made that up, but I think you get might drift)

>I have to admit that I've also heavily perused paypalsucks.com, and was 
>discouraged by the number of reports there in 2002.  And there's the 
>class-action lawsuit still proceeding in California and Nebraska.
>
>  
>
All bearing action against previous behavior (presumably before the Ebay 
buy out).

>However, looking at paypalsucks.com, the number of serious angry-customer 
>reports seems to have decreased sharply in 2003.   This may indicate a change 
>of practice by Paypal in the wake of negative publicity.   Also, apparently 
>in a month they will be supervised by the British Financial Authority, which 
>has *got* to mean some cleaning house.
>  
>
Yes that is very true. I know that it will be alot easier for my 
international customers once they are firmly
entrenched in Europe.

The reason I think Paypal is not a bad idea is that most people I know 
have a paypal account. However,
if it is feasible we might as well just get a merchant account for the 
non profit. Then we could even accept
e-check.

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake






-- 
Command Prompt, Inc., home of Mammoth PostgreSQL - S/ODBC and S/JDBC
Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting.
+1-503-222-2783 - jd@commandprompt.com - http://www.commandprompt.com












It's mostly in the 25-page Terms Of Service document, which I can no longer 
access without having an account (which I do not).  


You can access it right here:

http://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=p/gen/ua/ua-outside

They also include information about FDIC pass through insurance here:

http://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=p/gen/fdic-outside

The above link also includes links to the banks where the money is kept
and an
additional link to the user agreement.

And if we keep a balance with them, we can turn it into a Money Market
account.

They even have a fairly extensive privacy policy.

Also per paypalsucks.com, although I have not read the entire site it
appears to be
fairly inaccurate to real facts. 

PaypalSucks says:
- It is difficult to find the phone number to Paypal:
It was very easy to find under About us, and under the privacy
agreement. It was easier to find
their phone number than many other "Online Businesses"

- PaypalSucks says: According to PayPal accepting
their ToS (Terms of Service) in effect means you waive
your rights 
- to credit card consumer protection laws, and that you may
not issue a chargeback for anything you purchase -using your credit
card
and PayPal account that you are unsatisfied with. Is this
legal? We don't know. But it's how - Paypal operates. 

Actually paypal has extensive protection policies including buyer and
seller which is a rarity. Visa for example HEAVILY
favors the buyer which is a real pain the but for a lot of legitamate
business that deal with fraudulent customers.


Now all of this may be the way "it used to be", but I don't think  that
is the way it is anymore. Paypal has become
the preferred method of payment per Ebay (for obvious reasons) and that
carries quite a bit of responsibility.

I am not saying they are perfect but EBay has done a lot of good things
and I personally find that the good far
out weighs the bad.

It is kind of like the old saying, "One bad voice is heard by a million
ears. A million good voices are only heard by one ear."
(o.k. I made that up, but I think you get might drift)


I have to admit that I've also heavily perused paypalsucks.com, and was 
discouraged by the number of reports there in 2002.  And there's the 
class-action lawsuit still proceeding in California and Nebraska.

  

All bearing action against previous behavior (presumably before the
Ebay buy out).


However, looking at paypalsucks.com, the number of serious angry-customer 
reports seems to have decreased sharply in 2003.   This may indicate a change 
of practice by Paypal in the wake of negative publicity.   Also, apparently 
in a month they will be supervised by the British Financial Authority, which 
has *got* to mean some cleaning house.
  

Yes that is very true. I know that it will be alot easier for my
international customers once they are firmly
entrenched in Europe.

The reason I think Paypal is not a bad idea is that most people I know
have a paypal account. However,
if it is feasible we might as well just get a merchant account for the
non profit. Then we could even accept
e-check.

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake






-- 
Command Prompt, Inc., home of Mammoth PostgreSQL - S/ODBC and S/JDBC
Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting.
+1-503-222-2783 - jd@commandprompt.com - http://www.commandprompt.com
Tue, 06 Jan 2004 13:04:14 -0800
"Joshua D. Drake" <jd@commandprompt.com>
Re: Paypal
Peter,
 
> Oh really?  When will the rest of us learn about that?  Hopefully before 
> it is set up?

We'll be discussing a mission statement and governance on this list (and 
others) at the end of this month, when we're ready to do something concrete 
about it. 

-- 
-Josh Berkus
 Aglio Database Solutions
 San Francisco


Tue, 6 Jan 2004 13:05:59 -0800
Josh Berkus <josh@agliodbs.com>
Re: Paypal
Josh Berkus wrote:
> Anyway, it sounds like I'm alone in my distrust of Paypal, so maybe
> we should drop it?

To me, more interesting questions than what payment system to use are: 
What entity will receive the money? What will they do with it? What 
sort of public accounting will they have? How will cross-border money 
transfer work and how expensive will it be? Will the U.S. customs need 
my fingerprints?

Personally, if I need to send money somewhere, I have my bank wire it.  
I don't see a need to introduce another middleman, but maybe someone 
can explain why they think they need to.


Tue, 6 Jan 2004 22:06:22 +0100
Peter Eisentraut <peter_e@gmx.net>
Re: Paypal
>
>
>Help me out here... what's your perceived difference between kazaa and
>bittorrent?  
>
>  
>
I won't speak for someone else but I would guess that it is that 
Bittorrent isn't a business, it is a technology.
Where Kazaa is a business.

Personally I have zero problem with Kazaa and I think Open Office should 
use every legal means possible to
distribute their software.

If I buy a gun , and kill you... is that my fault or the fault of the 
gun maker?


Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake

-- 
Command Prompt, Inc., home of Mammoth PostgreSQL - S/ODBC and S/JDBC
Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting.
+1-503-222-2783 - jd@commandprompt.com - http://www.commandprompt.com
Editor-N-Chief - PostgreSQl.Org - http://www.postgresql.org 


Tue, 06 Jan 2004 13:06:29 -0800
"Joshua D. Drake" <jd@commandprompt.com>
Re: Paypal WAS: PostgreSQL speakers needed for	OSCON
On Tue, Jan 06, 2004 at 12:32:36 -0800,
  Josh Berkus <josh@agliodbs.com> wrote:
> 
> Anyway, it sounds like I'm alone in my distrust of Paypal, so maybe we should 
> drop it?

I wouldn't say that. They are owned buy eBay which is known for having
a low regard for user privacy, especially with regard to Law Enforcement
fishing expeditions.

The main thing going for Paypal is the network effect. If you used say e-Gold,
a lot of people that might donate via Paypal probably wouldn't bother to
set up an e-Gold account just to be able to send money electronicly.

Tue, 6 Jan 2004 15:07:41 -0600
Bruno Wolff III <bruno@wolff.to>
Re: Paypal WAS: PostgreSQL speakers needed for
>
>
>
>To me, more interesting questions than what payment system to use are: 
>What entity will receive the money?
>
Well I know there is a non-profit in motion (or done?) for advocacy???

>What will they do with it?
>
I would personally like to see it for things like professional 
documentation editing, shows/events,
anything that has to do with advocating PostgreSQL

> What 
>sort of public accounting will they have?
>
Well, I think (I would have to double check) that as a non profit you 
have to make your books
public.

> How will cross-border money 
>transfer work and how expensive will it be? Will the U.S. customs need 
>my fingerprints?
>  
>

Only if you plan on flying in.

>Personally, if I need to send money somewhere, I have my bank wire it.  
>I don't see a need to introduce another middleman, but maybe someone 
>can explain why they think they need to.
>  
>
Well there are problems with bank wire.

One: it is typically more expensive than using a credit card or paypal 
account.
Two: it is ridiculous to wire 5.00, where it is useful to paypal or 
credit card 5.00.
Three: with a wire, once the money is gone, it is gone. Zero recourse.

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake

-- 
Command Prompt, Inc., home of Mammoth PostgreSQL - S/ODBC and S/JDBC
Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting.
+1-503-222-2783 - jd@commandprompt.com - http://www.commandprompt.com











To me, more interesting questions than what payment system to use are: 
What entity will receive the money?

Well I know there is a non-profit in motion (or done?) for advocacy???


What will they do with it?

I would personally like to see it for things like professional
documentation editing, shows/events,
anything that has to do with advocating PostgreSQL


 What 
sort of public accounting will they have?

Well, I think (I would have to double check) that as a non profit you
have to make your books
public.


 How will cross-border money 
transfer work and how expensive will it be? Will the U.S. customs need 
my fingerprints?
  


Only if you plan on flying in.


Personally, if I need to send money somewhere, I have my bank wire it.  
I don't see a need to introduce another middleman, but maybe someone 
can explain why they think they need to.
  

Well there are problems with bank wire. 

One: it is typically more expensive than using a credit card or paypal
account.
Two: it is ridiculous to wire 5.00, where it is useful to paypal or
credit card 5.00.
Three: with a wire, once the money is gone, it is gone. Zero recourse.

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake

-- 
Command Prompt, Inc., home of Mammoth PostgreSQL - S/ODBC and S/JDBC
Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting.
+1-503-222-2783 - jd@commandprompt.com - http://www.commandprompt.com
Tue, 06 Jan 2004 13:18:19 -0800
"Joshua D. Drake" <jd@commandprompt.com>
Re: Paypal
Joshua D. Drake wrote:
> >To me, more interesting questions than what payment system to use
> > are: What entity will receive the money?
>
> Well I know there is a non-profit in motion (or done?) for
> advocacy???

Oh really?  When will the rest of us learn about that?  Hopefully before 
it is set up?


Tue, 6 Jan 2004 22:23:12 +0100
Peter Eisentraut <peter_e@gmx.net>
Re: Paypal
Quoting Peter Eisentraut <peter_e@gmx.net>:

> Josh Berkus wrote:
> > Anyway, it sounds like I'm alone in my distrust of Paypal, so maybe
> > we should drop it?
> 
> To me, more interesting questions than what payment system to use are: 
> What entity will receive the money? What will they do with it? What 
> sort of public accounting will they have? How will cross-border money 
> transfer work and how expensive will it be? Will the U.S. customs need 
> my fingerprints?
> 
> Personally, if I need to send money somewhere, I have my bank wire it.  
> I don't see a need to introduce another middleman, but maybe someone 
> can explain why they think they need to.
> 
> 
> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
> TIP 9: the planner will ignore your desire to choose an index scan if your
>       joining column's datatypes do not match
> 

I'm going second, third and forth this point.  I'm kinda of the mindset we
should be reviewing banks and how to set up a system ourself.  'Course that is
not practical here however I don't like using a middleman either and wire are
very easy and standard for me to deal with out of my companies business account.
 Plus it will be in my accounting reports.  The only downside is that (at least
for me) there is a fee.

-- 
Keith C. Perry, MS E.E.
Director of Networks & Applications
VCSN, Inc.
http://vcsn.com
 
____________________________________
This email account is being host by:
VCSN, Inc : http://vcsn.com

Tue,  6 Jan 2004 16:53:32 -0500
"Keith C. Perry" <netadmin@vcsn.com>
Re: Paypal
On Tue, 6 Jan 2004, Josh Berkus wrote:

> Josh:
>
> > Odd.   I was told by an Abiword person in November that the money was never
> > returned; I will contact them to clarify.
>
> OK, clarified: what Marc had *meant* was that Paypal did not cough up (or
> event respond to e-mails or faxes) until the Abiword theft story got
> slashdotted.

Not this Marc, by the way .. :)

> Still doesn't really improve my impression of PayPal ....
>
> This is similar to a discussion we had on OpenOffice.org regarding Kazaa.
> Kazaa had offered to let the OOo 1.0 distribution be a free pilot for their
> "Kazaa Gold" service.   We discussed it, and decided that participating in
> this program would be effectively putting OOo's "stamp of approval" on
> Kazaa's whole business model, of which we were not fond, and declined.
>
> For similar reasons, I would not favor setting up a donations account through
> PayPal.   However unlikely it is that PG would come to harm through PayPal,
> the company has not changed its customer-abusive written policies and I would
> not want to do anything that would encourage more people signing up with
> them.
>
> Of course, I could be outvoted ....

I'm still anti-Paypal, even more so after this ... I'd hate to have to see
us, at some point, having to go the same route as abiword just to get at
the money, *especially* if it is/was at a time when we were at the last
minute on something .. imagine being at the last minute on paying for a
booth at Comdex and finding out Paypal has arbitrarily locked our funds?

----
Marc G. Fournier           Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org)
Email: scrappy@hub.org           Yahoo!: yscrappy              ICQ: 7615664

Tue, 6 Jan 2004 17:59:03 -0400 (AST)
"Marc G. Fournier" <scrappy@postgresql.org>
Re: Paypal WAS: PostgreSQL speakers needed for
On Tue, 6 Jan 2004, Robert Treat wrote:

> > For similar reasons, I would not favor setting up a donations account through
> > PayPal.   However unlikely it is that PG would come to harm through PayPal,
> > the company has not changed its customer-abusive written policies and I would
> > not want to do anything that would encourage more people signing up with
> > them.
> >
>
> yeesh... given that AbiWord themselves still use paypal for donations
> (http://www.abisource.com/information/news/donation-abiword.phtml) I
> think that folks who avoid paypal based on that incident are off the
> mark.  Not saying there aren't a lot of other reasons you might want to
> avoid using them, but if they're good enough for Abiword....

Josh, can you find out why, after everything they went through, they
decided to stick with Paypal?

----
Marc G. Fournier           Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org)
Email: scrappy@hub.org           Yahoo!: yscrappy              ICQ: 7615664

Tue, 6 Jan 2004 18:00:24 -0400 (AST)
"Marc G. Fournier" <scrappy@postgresql.org>
Re: Paypal WAS: PostgreSQL speakers needed for
On Tue, 6 Jan 2004, Josh Berkus wrote:

> 2) At the time we made the decision, Kazaa was bundling spyware with thier
> client.   I don't know whether they do now.

I just spent my Xmas holidays clearing off at least a dozen spyware
packages from Andrea's fathers computer that were installed when her
brother installed Kazaa ... it was to the point where you couldn't browse
the web for the popups that were being generated ...

----
Marc G. Fournier           Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org)
Email: scrappy@hub.org           Yahoo!: yscrappy              ICQ: 7615664

Tue, 6 Jan 2004 18:06:13 -0400 (AST)
"Marc G. Fournier" <scrappy@postgresql.org>
Re: Paypal WAS: PostgreSQL speakers needed for
Quoting "Joshua D. Drake" <jd@commandprompt.com>:

> >
> >
> >Help me out here... what's your perceived difference between kazaa and
> >bittorrent?  
> >
> >  
> >
> I won't speak for someone else but I would guess that it is that 
> Bittorrent isn't a business, it is a technology.
> Where Kazaa is a business.
> 
> Personally I have zero problem with Kazaa and I think Open Office should 
> use every legal means possible to
> distribute their software.
> 
> If I buy a gun , and kill you... is that my fault or the fault of the 
> gun maker?

Hmmm, we'll I agree with that arguement but I don't think that is a good
example.  As a musician and owner of a publishing company also, I think the
American retail commerical music market is grossly over priced- CDs are
sometimes the same price as DVDs- PUHLEEEZZEE- the point of the matter is the
kazaa is enabling- this like one of the top things for college student to do
these days.   From what I understand, last year RIAA and Kazaa regularly squared
off on TechTV and the basically (this is 3rd party info so I could be wrong) the
jist of things from Kazaa, "we know about the piracy and we don't care".

True or not, the copywrite infringement is a problem and there are digital
fingerprinting technologies that could be implemented (and are on other system)
the could at least cut done the amount of piracy.  Someone mention the
"appearance" of things an I think that arguement holds some weight.  I think MS
and many other people are waiting for the OSS community to be deal a disabling
blow.  I won't have't chanced things with Kazaa either.  Especially since they
were spywear at one point.

One plus for me about Kazaa is that seem to be very pro-privacy but I think you
can do that an protect copywrites as well.

> Sincerely,
> 
> Joshua D. Drake
> 
> -- 
> Command Prompt, Inc., home of Mammoth PostgreSQL - S/ODBC and S/JDBC
> Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting.
> +1-503-222-2783 - jd@commandprompt.com - http://www.commandprompt.com
> Editor-N-Chief - PostgreSQl.Org - http://www.postgresql.org 
> 
> 
> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
> TIP 1: subscribe and unsubscribe commands go to majordomo@postgresql.org
> 


KP-
 
____________________________________
This email account is being host by:
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Tue,  6 Jan 2004 17:09:38 -0500
keith@vcsn.com
Re: Paypal WAS: PostgreSQL speakers needed for OSCON
On Tue, 6 Jan 2004, Joshua D. Drake wrote:

> >
> >
> >
> >To me, more interesting questions than what payment system to use are:
> >What entity will receive the money?
> >
> Well I know there is a non-profit in motion (or done?) for advocacy???

yes

> >What will they do with it?
> >
> I would personally like to see it for things like professional
> documentation editing, shows/events,
> anything that has to do with advocating PostgreSQL

this is the intent ... we'd like to be able to start funding booths and
marketing material if we can ...

> Three: with a wire, once the money is gone, it is gone. Zero recourse.

Agreed, we've absorbed a few invoices as a result of a client swearing
that the money was wired and they had proof of that, but we never received
it :(

----
Marc G. Fournier           Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org)
Email: scrappy@hub.org           Yahoo!: yscrappy              ICQ: 7615664

Tue, 6 Jan 2004 18:10:53 -0400 (AST)
"Marc G. Fournier" <scrappy@postgresql.org>
Re: Paypal
Quoting "Joshua D. Drake" <jd@commandprompt.com>:

> >
> >
> >Help me out here... what's your perceived difference between kazaa and
> >bittorrent?  
> >
> >  
> >
> I won't speak for someone else but I would guess that it is that 
> Bittorrent isn't a business, it is a technology.
> Where Kazaa is a business.
> 
> Personally I have zero problem with Kazaa and I think Open Office should 
> use every legal means possible to
> distribute their software.
> 
> If I buy a gun , and kill you... is that my fault or the fault of the 
> gun maker?

Hmmm, we'll I agree with that arguement but I don't think that is a good
example.  As a musician and owner of a publishing company also, I think the
American retail commerical music market is grossly over priced- CDs are
sometimes the same price as DVDs- PUHLEEEZZEE- the point of the matter is the
kazaa is enabling- this like one of the top things for college student to do
these days.   From what I understand, last year RIAA and Kazaa regularly squared
off on TechTV and the basically (this is 3rd party info so I could be wrong) the
jist of things from Kazaa, "we know about the piracy and we don't care".  I my
mind his is more like buying a gun and the selling telling you how to get teflon
coated ammo.

Someone mentioned the "appearance" of things an I think that argument holds some
weight.  I think MS and many other people/orgs are waiting for the OSS community
to be deal a disabling blow- anything that will curtail growth and acceptance. 
Perfect example of ths is when SCO's stock shot way up when they announced their
suit again Linux/IBM.  Kazaa just has too much bad press in the recent past.

One plus for me about Kazaa is that seem to be very pro-privacy but I think you
can do that an protect copywrites as well.

> Sincerely,
> 
> Joshua D. Drake
> 
> -- 
> Command Prompt, Inc., home of Mammoth PostgreSQL - S/ODBC and S/JDBC
> Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting.
> +1-503-222-2783 - jd@commandprompt.com - http://www.commandprompt.com
> Editor-N-Chief - PostgreSQl.Org - http://www.postgresql.org 
> 
> 
> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
> TIP 1: subscribe and unsubscribe commands go to majordomo@postgresql.org
> 


-- 
Keith C. Perry, MS E.E.
Director of Networks & Applications
VCSN, Inc.
http://vcsn.com
 
____________________________________
This email account is being host by:
VCSN, Inc : http://vcsn.com

Tue,  6 Jan 2004 17:16:46 -0500
"Keith C. Perry" <netadmin@vcsn.com>
Re: Paypal WAS: PostgreSQL speakers needed for OSCON
Joshua D. Drake wrote:
> >
> >
> >Help me out here... what's your perceived difference between kazaa and
> >bittorrent?  
> >
> >  
> >
> I won't speak for someone else but I would guess that it is that 
> Bittorrent isn't a business, it is a technology.
> Where Kazaa is a business.
> 
> Personally I have zero problem with Kazaa and I think Open Office should 
> use every legal means possible to
> distribute their software.
> 
> If I buy a gun , and kill you... is that my fault or the fault of the 
> gun maker?

But with Kazaa and the spyware, you could say the gun is faulty and why
would you want to be associated with a faulty gun.

-- 
  Bruce Momjian                        |  http://candle.pha.pa.us
  pgman@candle.pha.pa.us               |  (610) 359-1001
  +  If your life is a hard drive,     |  13 Roberts Road
  +  Christ can be your backup.        |  Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073

Tue, 6 Jan 2004 17:18:59 -0500 (EST)
Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>
Re: Paypal WAS: PostgreSQL speakers needed for OSCON
Josh,

> The spyware (at least last time I checked) isn't installed without 
> permission. If  a person installs
> Kazaa they knowingly have agreed to do so. Ignorance is not an excuse.

So?   It's still reason for OOo not to want to be associated with them, in the 
same way that we would not publicize a testimonial that Enron or Al Queda 
used OOo (though those are, of course, much more clear-cut).

Same thing with the music piracy angle.   Regardless of what we do, a certain 
number of execs think that Open Source must be stealing because it's "free".  
Authorizing a distribution service which also carries stolen property will 
simply encourage more execs to think this way and feed directly into 
Microsoft's marketing campaigns which paint Linux and OOo as 
"anti-capitalist".  Mind you, Kazaa can distribute OOo whenever they wish but 
it was up to us whether we participated in their PR, and we decided not to.

Given that you sell copyrighted material for a living, I find your attitude 
surprising.   Or are you simply playing devil's advocate?

-- 
-Josh Berkus
 Aglio Database Solutions
 San Francisco


Tue, 6 Jan 2004 15:48:28 -0800
Josh Berkus <josh@agliodbs.com>
Re: Paypal WAS: PostgreSQL speakers needed for OSCON
>True or not, the copywrite infringement is a problem and there are digital
>fingerprinting technologies that could be implemented (and are on other system)
>the could at least cut done the amount of piracy.  
>
I doubt it. People will always break it. Frankly I own every MP3 I have. 
The reality is, people aren't honest.
They are either stealing a pen from a bank, or an mp3 from the web. The 
only thing Kazaa has done is
make it so that the people that will steal pens from the bank can also 
steal music (images whatever) as easily
as they would steal that pen.

The problem is not the technology. The problem is the inherit feeling 
within humans that they somehow deserve
something, regardless (yes I am being generalistic) of whether or not 
they have earned it. So you get this mindset
that says, well only one mp3 won't hurt an artist, only one album won't 
hurt and artist, hell that artist made 20 million
last year and the cd is over priced... I will just download it.

This is nothing new, people have been trading on Usenet, IRC and Archie 
(and these people are the primary culprits)
for a long time. I think that you would find that the majority of people 
that are in the "major" offense of mp3 trading are the same
people that have always and will always do it.

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake


>Someone mention the
>"appearance" of things an I think that arguement holds some weight.  I think MS
>and many other people are waiting for the OSS community to be deal a disabling
>blow.  I won't have't chanced things with Kazaa either.  Especially since they
>were spywear at one point.
>
>One plus for me about Kazaa is that seem to be very pro-privacy but I think you
>can do that an protect copywrites as well.
>
>  
>
>>Sincerely,
>>
>>Joshua D. Drake
>>
>>-- 
>>Command Prompt, Inc., home of Mammoth PostgreSQL - S/ODBC and S/JDBC
>>Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting.
>>+1-503-222-2783 - jd@commandprompt.com - http://www.commandprompt.com
>>Editor-N-Chief - PostgreSQl.Org - http://www.postgresql.org 
>>
>>
>>---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
>>TIP 1: subscribe and unsubscribe commands go to majordomo@postgresql.org
>>
>>    
>>
>
>
>KP-
> 
>____________________________________
>This email account is being host by:
>VCSN, Inc : http://vcsn.com
>  
>


-- 
Command Prompt, Inc., home of Mammoth PostgreSQL - S/ODBC and S/JDBC
Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting.
+1-503-222-2783 - jd@commandprompt.com - http://www.commandprompt.com
Editor-N-Chief - PostgreSQl.Org - http://www.postgresql.org 











True or not, the copywrite infringement is a problem and there are digital
fingerprinting technologies that could be implemented (and are on other system)
the could at least cut done the amount of piracy.  

I doubt it. People will always break it. Frankly I own every MP3 I
have. The reality is, people aren't honest.
They are either stealing a pen from a bank, or an mp3 from the web. The
only thing Kazaa has done is
make it so that the people that will steal pens from the bank can also
steal music (images whatever) as easily
as they would steal that pen.

The problem is not the technology. The problem is the inherit feeling
within humans that they somehow deserve
something, regardless (yes I am being generalistic) of whether or not
they have earned it. So you get this mindset
that says, well only one mp3 won't hurt an artist, only one album won't
hurt and artist, hell that artist made 20 million
last year and the cd is over priced... I will just download it.

This is nothing new, people have been trading on Usenet, IRC and Archie
(and these people are the primary culprits)
for a long time. I think that you would find that the majority of
people that are in the "major" offense of mp3 trading are the same
people that have always and will always do it.

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake



Someone mention the
"appearance" of things an I think that arguement holds some weight.  I think MS
and many other people are waiting for the OSS community to be deal a disabling
blow.  I won't have't chanced things with Kazaa either.  Especially since they
were spywear at one point.

One plus for me about Kazaa is that seem to be very pro-privacy but I think you
can do that an protect copywrites as well.

  

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake

-- 
Command Prompt, Inc., home of Mammoth PostgreSQL - S/ODBC and S/JDBC
Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting.
+1-503-222-2783 - jd@commandprompt.com - http://www.commandprompt.com
Editor-N-Chief - PostgreSQl.Org - http://www.postgresql.org 


---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
TIP 1: subscribe and unsubscribe commands go to majordomo@postgresql.org

    



KP-
 
____________________________________
This email account is being host by:
VCSN, Inc : http://vcsn.com
  



-- 
Command Prompt, Inc., home of Mammoth PostgreSQL - S/ODBC and S/JDBC
Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting.
+1-503-222-2783 - jd@commandprompt.com - http://www.commandprompt.com
Editor-N-Chief - PostgreSQl.Org - http://www.postgresql.org
Tue, 06 Jan 2004 15:51:27 -0800
"Joshua D. Drake" <jd@commandprompt.com>
Re: Paypal WAS: PostgreSQL speakers needed for OSCON
>>If I buy a gun , and kill you... is that my fault or the fault of the 
>>gun maker?
>>    
>>
>
>But with Kazaa and the spyware, you could say the gun is faulty and why
>would you want to be associated with a faulty gun.
>
>  
>
The spyware (at least last time I checked) isn't installed without 
permission. If  a person installs
Kazaa they knowingly have agreed to do so. Ignorance is not an excuse.

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake




-- 
Command Prompt, Inc., home of Mammoth PostgreSQL - S/ODBC and S/JDBC
Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting.
+1-503-222-2783 - jd@commandprompt.com - http://www.commandprompt.com













If I buy a gun , and kill you... is that my fault or the fault of the 
gun maker?
    


But with Kazaa and the spyware, you could say the gun is faulty and why
would you want to be associated with a faulty gun.

  

The spyware (at least last time I checked) isn't installed without
permission. If  a person installs
Kazaa they knowingly have agreed to do so. Ignorance is not an excuse.

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake




-- 
Command Prompt, Inc., home of Mammoth PostgreSQL - S/ODBC and S/JDBC
Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting.
+1-503-222-2783 - jd@commandprompt.com - http://www.commandprompt.com
Tue, 06 Jan 2004 15:55:01 -0800
"Joshua D. Drake" <jd@commandprompt.com>
Re: Paypal WAS: PostgreSQL speakers needed for OSCON
On Tue, 6 Jan 2004, Joshua D. Drake wrote:

> The spyware (at least last time I checked) isn't installed without
> permission. If  a person installs
> Kazaa they knowingly have agreed to do so. Ignorance is not an excuse.

When we first moved to Panama, one of the servers on our network had
gotten our IP block blacklisted for email on a *load* of lists (something
that was quickly remedied by our provider by shutting down the site, as
our provider is quite anti-spam as well) ... turns out that what ppl were
downloading a client from them (voluntarily), and one of the steps in the
installation procedure is a long license agreement ... turns out that one
of the things you agree to in it is that the software can harvest email
addresses off of your computer and make use of it for spamming purposes
...

... the trick:  you had to actually read the license agreement to find
this out ... and most ppl are lazy (I'm as guilty as the next) and don't
read them, so altho they *agreed* with the license, they had no idea that
the software was going to do this ...

I've never installed Kazaa, so maybe they are more open about the Spyware
it installs, but if its something that is "agreed to" inside of their
license agreement, chances are, 99.9% of computer users will never see
"the fine print" ... and even if they do read it, chances are they will
gloss over it ...

The point: Ignorance may not be an excuse, but we all tend to "trust" that
the software we try to use, that is in use by millions of others, will be
trustworthy software and not try to pull a swift one ... and, in this
case, a swift one is burying a loophole into the license agreement about
what the software can/will do :(

----
Marc G. Fournier           Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org)
Email: scrappy@hub.org           Yahoo!: yscrappy              ICQ: 7615664

Tue, 6 Jan 2004 20:06:04 -0400 (AST)
"Marc G. Fournier" <scrappy@postgresql.org>
Re: Paypal WAS: PostgreSQL speakers needed for
>>The spyware (at least last time I checked) isn't installed without 
>>permission. If  a person installs
>>Kazaa they knowingly have agreed to do so. Ignorance is not an excuse.
>>    
>>
>
>So?   It's still reason for OOo not to want to be associated with them, in the 
>same way that we would not publicize a testimonial that Enron or Al Queda 
>used OOo (though those are, of course, much more clear-cut).
>  
>
Which of course is OO's perogative... but Kazaa at least from what you 
were saying was trying to
provide (agruably) a legitimate distribution channel for OO via a 
legitimate service. Especially since
OO is free, I don't see a problem with it.

Now on the flip side I think that distribution through Kazaa is going to 
help Kazaa more than it would
help OO... as Kazaa is more of a desparate need to prove that they are 
legitamite.

>Same thing with the music piracy angle.   Regardless of what we do, a certain 
>number of execs think that Open Source must be stealing because it's "free".  
>  
>
I have never actually ran into that. Not saying it exists, but most 
execs that I run into just don't
understand how it works but usually it is more in the vein of "Why do it 
if its free"...

>Microsoft's marketing campaigns which paint Linux and OOo as 
>"anti-capitalist".  
>
That is not exactly untrue. It is also not exactly a bad thing. Linux is 
anti-captilist to some degree.
Linux is more socio-capitlism where the better good overrides the larger 
dollar. Today's capitalism doesn't
look that far. Although it should as the better good in the end will 
bring the larger dollar.

>Mind you, Kazaa can distribute OOo whenever they wish but 
>it was up to us whether we participated in their PR, and we decided not to.
>
>Given that you sell copyrighted material for a living, I find your attitude 
>surprising.   Or are you simply playing devil's advocate?
>
>  
>
Part of it is Devil's Advocate. Part of it is irritation at being snowed 
in for over a week.  Part of it
is me wanting to explore the argument further.

In reality I think that your choice specifically for Kazaa and OO was 
probably the right one. I didn't
realize that they wanted the whole PR thing. I wouldn't want that PR 
either. I thought it was more
of a "We don't want you do distribute OO" type of thing where I could 
see Kazaa actually doing
you some good.

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake








-- 
Command Prompt, Inc., home of Mammoth PostgreSQL - S/ODBC and S/JDBC
Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting.
+1-503-222-2783 - jd@commandprompt.com - http://www.commandprompt.com












The spyware (at least last time I checked) isn't installed without 
permission. If  a person installs
Kazaa they knowingly have agreed to do so. Ignorance is not an excuse.
    


So?   It's still reason for OOo not to want to be associated with them, in the 
same way that we would not publicize a testimonial that Enron or Al Queda 
used OOo (though those are, of course, much more clear-cut).
  

Which of course is OO's perogative... but Kazaa at least from what you
were saying was trying to 
provide (agruably) a legitimate distribution channel for OO via a
legitimate service. Especially since
OO is free, I don't see a problem with it.

Now on the flip side I think that distribution through Kazaa is going
to help Kazaa more than it would
help OO... as Kazaa is more of a desparate need to prove that they are
legitamite.


Same thing with the music piracy angle.   Regardless of what we do, a certain 
number of execs think that Open Source must be stealing because it's "free".  
  

I have never actually ran into that. Not saying it exists, but most
execs that I run into just don't
understand how it works but usually it is more in the vein of "Why do
it if its free"...


Microsoft's marketing campaigns which paint Linux and OOo as 
"anti-capitalist".  

That is not exactly untrue. It is also not exactly a bad thing. Linux
is anti-captilist to some degree.
Linux is more socio-capitlism where the better good overrides the
larger dollar. Today's capitalism doesn't
look that far. Although it should as the better good in the end will
bring the larger dollar.


Mind you, Kazaa can distribute OOo whenever they wish but 
it was up to us whether we participated in their PR, and we decided not to.

Given that you sell copyrighted material for a living, I find your attitude 
surprising.   Or are you simply playing devil's advocate?

  

Part of it is Devil's Advocate. Part of it is irritation at being
snowed in for over a week.  Part of it
is me wanting to explore the argument further.

In reality I think that your choice specifically for Kazaa and OO was
probably the right one. I didn't
realize that they wanted the whole PR thing. I wouldn't want that PR
either. I thought it was more
of a "We don't want you do distribute OO" type of thing where I could
see Kazaa actually doing
you some good.

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake








-- 
Command Prompt, Inc., home of Mammoth PostgreSQL - S/ODBC and S/JDBC
Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting.
+1-503-222-2783 - jd@commandprompt.com - http://www.commandprompt.com
Tue, 06 Jan 2004 16:46:56 -0800
"Joshua D. Drake" <jd@commandprompt.com>
Re: Paypal WAS: PostgreSQL speakers needed for OSCON
On Tue, 6 Jan 2004, Joshua D. Drake wrote:

> Part of it is irritation at being snowed in for over a week.

Cool ... I'm on the East Coast, and snow is the occasional flurry ...
what's it like to actually be snowed in?  And how is 'snowed in' defined
in this case?  For instance, when I was still a baby, my parents talk
about snow so deep they had to go out the second story windows ... are you
*that* snowed in?  :)


----
Marc G. Fournier           Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org)
Email: scrappy@hub.org           Yahoo!: yscrappy              ICQ: 7615664

Tue, 6 Jan 2004 21:46:25 -0400 (AST)
"Marc G. Fournier" <scrappy@postgresql.org>
Re: Paypal WAS: PostgreSQL speakers needed for

>Cool ... I'm on the East Coast, and snow is the occasional flurry ...
>what's it like to actually be snowed in?  And how is 'snowed in' defined
>in this case?  For instance, when I was still a baby, my parents talk
>about snow so deep they had to go out the second story windows ... are you
>*that* snowed in?  :)
>
>  
>
Well for some parts of the country I would be considered a Wimp but I 
will probably hit 2Ft by the end
of tommorow. Everything was fine until my truck decided to slide into a 
ditch because of crusted (iced over)
snow.

Western Oregon doesn't typically get real snow beyond a couple of days 
and at max 2 inches... Well
I am since Christmas Eve I have been able to make it into the office 
only twice... I am going slightly
insane.

Sincerely,

Joshua Drake




>----
>Marc G. Fournier           Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org)
>Email: scrappy@hub.org           Yahoo!: yscrappy              ICQ: 7615664
>  
>


-- 
Command Prompt, Inc., home of Mammoth PostgreSQL - S/ODBC and S/JDBC
Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting.
+1-503-222-2783 - jd@commandprompt.com - http://www.commandprompt.com
Editor-N-Chief - PostgreSQl.Org - http://www.postgresql.org 


Tue, 06 Jan 2004 17:59:10 -0800
"Joshua D. Drake" <jd@commandprompt.com>
Re: Paypal WAS: PostgreSQL speakers needed for OSCON
Hi Mark et al.

It seems to me that if we use a service such as Paypal as a venue for
recieving payment, that our risks are pretty minor.  The risks people are
talking about here come into play only when we are storing sums of money in
Paypal.  Paypal has a number of issues that I would like to avoid:
1:  They don't have a very good security record. (Abiword comes to mind)
2:  They are large and well known, making users susceptible to fraud in the
same way e-bay users are.  This means that their security record may not
always be under their control, as less knowledgable customers may fall for
such scams.

Even if they have improved their terms of service, I still am unsure based
on these points.  So here is my counterproposal.  This viewpoint errs on the
side of security and safety.

1:  Have a separate bank account or money market (if we have enough of a
ballance to make it worth it).


2:  Clear out the Paypall acct weekly and transfer to the bank account.
That way if somethign happens, we lose 1 week's worth.

Best Wishes,
Chris Travers

----- Original Message -----
From: "Marc G. Fournier" <scrappy@postgresql.org>
To: "Josh Berkus" <josh@agliodbs.com>
Cc: "Joshua D. Drake" <jd@commandprompt.com>; "Dan Langille"
<dan@langille.org>; <pgsql-advocacy@postgresql.org>
Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2004 4:59 AM
Subject: Re: [pgsql-advocacy] Paypal WAS: PostgreSQL speakers needed for


> On Tue, 6 Jan 2004, Josh Berkus wrote:
>
> > Josh:
> >
> > > Odd.   I was told by an Abiword person in November that the money was
never
> > > returned; I will contact them to clarify.
> >
> > OK, clarified: what Marc had *meant* was that Paypal did not cough up
(or
> > event respond to e-mails or faxes) until the Abiword theft story got
> > slashdotted.
>
> Not this Marc, by the way .. :)
>
> > Still doesn't really improve my impression of PayPal ....
> >
> > This is similar to a discussion we had on OpenOffice.org regarding
Kazaa.
> > Kazaa had offered to let the OOo 1.0 distribution be a free pilot for
their
> > "Kazaa Gold" service.   We discussed it, and decided that participating
in
> > this program would be effectively putting OOo's "stamp of approval" on
> > Kazaa's whole business model, of which we were not fond, and declined.
> >
> > For similar reasons, I would not favor setting up a donations account
through
> > PayPal.   However unlikely it is that PG would come to harm through
PayPal,
> > the company has not changed its customer-abusive written policies and I
would
> > not want to do anything that would encourage more people signing up with
> > them.
> >
> > Of course, I could be outvoted ....
>
> I'm still anti-Paypal, even more so after this ... I'd hate to have to see
> us, at some point, having to go the same route as abiword just to get at
> the money, *especially* if it is/was at a time when we were at the last
> minute on something .. imagine being at the last minute on paying for a
> booth at Comdex and finding out Paypal has arbitrarily locked our funds?
>
> ----
> Marc G. Fournier           Hub.Org Networking Services
(http://www.hub.org)
> Email: scrappy@hub.org           Yahoo!: yscrappy              ICQ:
7615664
>
> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
> TIP 4: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
>
>


Wed, 7 Jan 2004 09:07:15 +0700
"Chris Travers" <chris@travelamericas.com>
Paypal Risk Management,
	was Re: Paypal WAS: PostgreSQL speakers needed for
On Tuesday 06 January 2004 18:51, Joshua D. Drake wrote:
> >True or not, the copywrite infringement is a problem and there are digital
> >fingerprinting technologies that could be implemented (and are on other
> > system) the could at least cut done the amount of piracy.
>
> I doubt it. People will always break it. Frankly I own every MP3 I have.
> The reality is, people aren't honest.
<snip>
> The problem is not the technology. The problem is the inherit feeling
> within humans that they somehow deserve
> something, regardless (yes I am being generalistic) of whether or not
> they have earned it. So you get this mindset
> that says, well only one mp3 won't hurt an artist, only one album won't
> hurt and artist, hell that artist made 20 million
> last year and the cd is over priced... I will just download it.
>

Or maybe some people arn't in favor of corporation owning our culture. Maybe 
they realize that companies take and take and take from the "public domain" 
of information and try to rebrand it until they own it. Maybe people are 
tired of the fact that we can't get a decent perscription drug/ secured 
border / retirement solution / insert your social cause here but we seem to 
have no trouble passing laws like the DMCA and Sonny Bono Act.  Maybe some 
people see people building operating systems better than the biggest 
commercial companies and so they no longer believe that we can't have quality 
music/movies/books without locking it out of reach for generations to come.  
Heck I bet some people don't even believe in the idea of owning information.  
Maybe those people downloading them are hoping that thier acts of civil 
disobediance might lead to a cultural revolution that puts people ahead of 
the bottom line.  

Or maybe not.

Robert Treat
-- 
Build A Brighter Lamp :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL

Tue, 6 Jan 2004 21:09:17 -0500
Robert Treat <xzilla@users.sourceforge.net>
Re: Paypal WAS: PostgreSQL speakers needed for OSCON

>Or maybe some people arn't in favor of corporation owning our culture. Maybe 
>they realize that companies take and take and take from the "public domain" 
>of information and try to rebrand it until they own it. Maybe people are 
>tired of the fact that we can't get a decent perscription drug/ secured 
>border / retirement solution / insert your social cause here but we seem to 
>have no trouble passing laws like the DMCA and Sonny Bono Act.
>

I have no problem with my retirement solution. I actually save money 
instead of spending it on 4 latte's a day.
I buy used cars instead of new ones at 329.00 a month on my 1600.00 a 
month salary. I choose not to have
cable so I can save 600.00 a year tax free towards retirement. I take 
the bus instead of drive everyday to
save 75.00 a month on gas. I work a second job two days a week to cover 
my kids college.

This isn't me, but it was once. I earned everything that I have through 
hard work and the grace of God.

Life is a choice people. You make of it what you will. It is up to you 
to choose your direction and the things
that you want. If you don't have something you want (prescription drugs 
for example) then change jobs.
If you can't change jobs, organize with your fellow employees and walk out.

Can't afford to walk out? Start taking night classes over the Internet.. 
Can't afford it? Why not? If you
can't afford it legitamitely, then you will qualify for financial aid. 
Educate: Get a better job.

Maybe some people are ignorant and lazy...

Maybe some are a victim of circumstance.

The latter is the rarity..

I am fat because I have to eat McDonalds....


>  Maybe some 
>people see people building operating systems better than the biggest 
>commercial companies and so they no longer believe that we can't have quality 
>music/movies/books without locking it out of reach for generations to come.  
>Heck I bet some people don't even believe in the idea of owning information.  
>Maybe those people downloading them are hoping that thier acts of civil 
>disobediance might lead to a cultural revolution that puts people ahead of 
>the bottom line.  
>
>  
>
Except that information can be owned, Legitamate protest, organized 
events, and knowledge is the power
to change it. Personally I think that certain IP laws are ridiculous. 
The DMCA is one of them,
Copyrights that last longer than the author's life, and corporations 
like Wal-Mart all disgust me...

Breaking the law isn't the way to change any of it.

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake




>Or maybe not.
>
>Robert Treat
>  
>


-- 
Command Prompt, Inc., home of Mammoth PostgreSQL - S/ODBC and S/JDBC
Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting.
+1-503-222-2783 - jd@commandprompt.com - http://www.commandprompt.com
Editor-N-Chief - PostgreSQl.Org - http://www.postgresql.org 


Tue, 06 Jan 2004 18:30:11 -0800
"Joshua D. Drake" <jd@commandprompt.com>
Re: Paypal WAS: PostgreSQL speakers needed for OSCON
Joshua D. Drake wrote:
> Breaking the law isn't the way to change any of it.

Mahatma Ghandi would disagree with you on that.  Unfair laws shouldn't 
be obeyed, especially where (as with the Indian salt tax) the laws have 
been specifically set up to promote corporate wellbeing (some might say 
welfare) at the expense of the people.

Alex Satrapa


Wed, 07 Jan 2004 15:45:27 +1100
Alex Satrapa <alex@lintelsys.com.au>
Re: Paypal WAS: PostgreSQL speakers needed for OSCON
Hi Robert;

The problem I see it with the viewpoint you have mentioned here is that
infringing on the record label's copyright doesn't do an adequate job of
furthering an alternative system-- it only draws a line in the sand which
will cause more grief for consumers.  BTW, I don't believe that the RIAA is
correct that their revenues are dropping due to piracy.  I think that their
revenues are dropping because an alienated user base doesn't want to support
them by buying their products!

The answer is not to pirate music, but rather to do the open source thing
and support open content.  Same thing with software.  The single biggest
obstacle to acceptance of open source software in most of the world is the
quantity of pirated software out there.  Piracy isn't the solution--
constructing an alternate system and forcing the RIAA to learn the HARD
lesson is...  I actually think that their actions will signal the beginning
fo the end for record labels in general...

I also would be opposed to distributing open source software via Kazaa, for
these reasons.  ANd no, I generally do not pay for software.

Best Wishes,
Chris Travers
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Treat" <xzilla@users.sourceforge.net>
To: "Joshua D. Drake" <jd@commandprompt.com>; <keith@vcsn.com>
Cc: "Josh Berkus" <josh@agliodbs.com>; "Dan Langille" <dan@langille.org>;
<pgsql-advocacy@postgresql.org>
Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2004 9:09 AM
Subject: Re: [pgsql-advocacy] Paypal WAS: PostgreSQL speakers needed for
OSCON


> On Tuesday 06 January 2004 18:51, Joshua D. Drake wrote:
> > >True or not, the copywrite infringement is a problem and there are
digital
> > >fingerprinting technologies that could be implemented (and are on other
> > > system) the could at least cut done the amount of piracy.
> >
> > I doubt it. People will always break it. Frankly I own every MP3 I have.
> > The reality is, people aren't honest.
> <snip>
> > The problem is not the technology. The problem is the inherit feeling
> > within humans that they somehow deserve
> > something, regardless (yes I am being generalistic) of whether or not
> > they have earned it. So you get this mindset
> > that says, well only one mp3 won't hurt an artist, only one album won't
> > hurt and artist, hell that artist made 20 million
> > last year and the cd is over priced... I will just download it.
> >
>
> Or maybe some people arn't in favor of corporation owning our culture.
Maybe
> they realize that companies take and take and take from the "public
domain"
> of information and try to rebrand it until they own it. Maybe people are
> tired of the fact that we can't get a decent perscription drug/ secured
> border / retirement solution / insert your social cause here but we seem
to
> have no trouble passing laws like the DMCA and Sonny Bono Act.  Maybe some
> people see people building operating systems better than the biggest
> commercial companies and so they no longer believe that we can't have
quality
> music/movies/books without locking it out of reach for generations to
come.
> Heck I bet some people don't even believe in the idea of owning
information.
> Maybe those people downloading them are hoping that thier acts of civil
> disobediance might lead to a cultural revolution that puts people ahead of
> the bottom line.
>
> Or maybe not.
>
> Robert Treat
> --
> Build A Brighter Lamp :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL
>
> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
> TIP 7: don't forget to increase your free space map settings
>
>


Wed, 7 Jan 2004 13:10:23 +0700
"Chris Travers" <chris@travelamericas.com>
OT: Copyright,
	was Re: Paypal WAS: PostgreSQL speakers needed for OSCON
On Tuesday 06 January 2004 21:30, Joshua D. Drake wrote:
> >Or maybe some people arn't in favor of corporation owning our culture.
> > Maybe they realize that companies take and take and take from the "public
> > domain" of information and try to rebrand it until they own it. Maybe
> > people are tired of the fact that we can't get a decent perscription
> > drug/ secured border / retirement solution / insert your social cause
> > here but we seem to have no trouble passing laws like the DMCA and Sonny
> > Bono Act.
>
> I have no problem with my retirement solution. I actually save money
> instead of spending it on 4 latte's a day.
> I buy used cars instead of new ones at 329.00 a month on my 1600.00 a
> month salary. I choose not to have
> cable so I can save 600.00 a year tax free towards retirement. I take
> the bus instead of drive everyday to
> save 75.00 a month on gas. I work a second job two days a week to cover
> my kids college.
>
> This isn't me, but it was once. I earned everything that I have through
> hard work and the grace of God.
>
> Life is a choice people. You make of it what you will. It is up to you
> to choose your direction and the things
> that you want. If you don't have something you want (prescription drugs
> for example) then change jobs.
> If you can't change jobs, organize with your fellow employees and walk out.
>
> Can't afford to walk out? Start taking night classes over the Internet..
> Can't afford it? Why not? If you
> can't afford it legitamitely, then you will qualify for financial aid.
> Educate: Get a better job.
>
> Maybe some people are ignorant and lazy...
>
> Maybe some are a victim of circumstance.
>
> The latter is the rarity..
>
> I am fat because I have to eat McDonalds....
>

Two thing you seem to overlook.  First, in regards to a decent retirment plan, 
in this country we are forced to pay into a system like social security even 
though we may never recieve a dime from it.  I can think of a lot better ways 
to invest my money than handing it over via FICA. 

Second, while they can choose to avoid fast food, poor people can't afford 
food of the same quality that rich people can afford.  Ever notice how 
"organic food" is generally more expensive than it's regular counterparts?  
Or fresh produce is more expensive than it's canned counterparts?  Sure you 
can tell people they just need to "try harder", but it glosses over a lot of 
details in actually being successfull...

> >  Maybe some
> >people see people building operating systems better than the biggest
> >commercial companies and so they no longer believe that we can't have
> > quality music/movies/books without locking it out of reach for
> > generations to come. Heck I bet some people don't even believe in the
> > idea of owning information. Maybe those people downloading them are
> > hoping that thier acts of civil disobediance might lead to a cultural
> > revolution that puts people ahead of the bottom line.
>
> Except that information can be owned, Legitamate protest, organized
> events, and knowledge is the power
> to change it. Personally I think that certain IP laws are ridiculous.
> The DMCA is one of them,
> Copyrights that last longer than the author's life, and corporations
> like Wal-Mart all disgust me...
>
> Breaking the law isn't the way to change any of it.
>

You haven't studied your history Joshua. Civil disobedience has always been a 
useful tool in changing a societies laws.  Course the bus company never sued 
Rosa Parks for $17,000 for sitting in the wrong seat....

Robert Treat
-- 
Build A Brighter Lamp :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL

Wed, 7 Jan 2004 01:49:11 -0500
Robert Treat <xzilla@users.sourceforge.net>
OFF TOPIC!! Re: Paypal WAS: PostgreSQL speakers needed for OSCON
Quoting "Joshua D. Drake" <jd@commandprompt.com>:

> 
> >True or not, the copywrite infringement is a problem and there are digital
> >fingerprinting technologies that could be implemented (and are on other
> system)
> >the could at least cut done the amount of piracy.  
> >
> I doubt it. People will always break it. Frankly I own every MP3 I have.

Well we get a little smarter everytime with technology sometimes we get it kinda
right (e.g. the one-way encryption for unix password files, the tocom chips in
digital cable boxes) sometimes we get it wrong (e.g. WAP 802.11 encryption, DVD
encryption) but I think my point was lost in making a specific case.

A deterrant is just that.  A person can do just about anything with enough time
and motivation.  Since deterrants can be technically based quite often they
will have a low cost of implementation.  When a company like Kazaa indicates
that they would still not implement such technology (and who knows maybe they
will or do) it makes me wonder.
 
> The reality is, people aren't honest.
> They are either stealing a pen from a bank, or an mp3 from the web. The 
> only thing Kazaa has done is
> make it so that the people that will steal pens from the bank can also 
> steal music (images whatever) as easily
> as they would steal that pen.

True but in some case "enabling" is also a crime.  Take the case with the guy
who wanted to make a dvd player for linux.  Even though he did nothing illegal
the circuit court still deemed it illegal for the exploits and methods for DVD
encryption to be available since in their option the only reason to have that
information would be to copy a DVD with is "illegal".  Again this guy gets a
negative denotation associated with him because he, in reality, did nothing more
than expose a technical failing in a technology and then use it to complete a
project.  Had commericial companies been more receptive to software DVD player
at that time, weakness in the technology might not have never been exposed.  It
actually funny how we treat people sometimes.

> The problem is not the technology. The problem is the inherit feeling 
> within humans that they somehow deserve
> something, regardless (yes I am being generalistic) of whether or not 
> they have earned it. So you get this mindset
> that says, well only one mp3 won't hurt an artist, only one album won't 
> hurt and artist, hell that artist made 20 million
> last year and the cd is over priced... I will just download it.

heheh, well I kinda have to agree with that but still, not every artist or
software writer (lets just say copywrite owner) is in the position to get the
royalties he or she is entitiled to.  In fact most do not.

> This is nothing new, people have been trading on Usenet, IRC and Archie 
> (and these people are the primary culprits)
> for a long time. I think that you would find that the majority of people 
> that are in the "major" offense of mp3 trading are the same
> people that have always and will always do it.

hey lets go even further back to GOPHER, FTP (before there were directories) and
of course the dial-up BBS' (ahh the C-64 days!)

What you're saying is absolutely true but if it known that these same elements
now also use Kazaa as well as all the folks that are not as savy then why align
ourselves with something that even has the appeareance of a negative image.  I'm
sure we all spend enough time trying to promote PG that we really
don't want to get into discussions about why PostgreSQL up on Kazaa along side
Quincy Jones' Jook Joint

> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> Joshua D. Drake
> 
> >Someone mention the
> >"appearance" of things an I think that arguement holds some weight.  I think
> MS
> >and many other people are waiting for the OSS community to be deal a
> disabling
> >blow.  I won't have't chanced things with Kazaa either.  Especially since
> they
> >were spywear at one point.
> >
> >One plus for me about Kazaa is that seem to be very pro-privacy but I think
> you
> >can do that an protect copywrites as well.
> >
> >  
> >
> >>Sincerely,
> >>
> >>Joshua D. Drake
> >>
> >>-- 
> >>Command Prompt, Inc., home of Mammoth PostgreSQL - S/ODBC and S/JDBC
> >>Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting.
> >>+1-503-222-2783 - jd@commandprompt.com - http://www.commandprompt.com
> >>Editor-N-Chief - PostgreSQl.Org - http://www.postgresql.org 
> >>
> >>
> >>---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
> >>TIP 1: subscribe and unsubscribe commands go to majordomo@postgresql.org
> >>
> >>    
> >>
> >
> >
> >KP-
> > 
> >____________________________________
> >This email account is being host by:
> >VCSN, Inc : http://vcsn.com
> >  
> >
> 
> 
> -- 
> Command Prompt, Inc., home of Mammoth PostgreSQL - S/ODBC and S/JDBC
> Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting.
> +1-503-222-2783 - jd@commandprompt.com - http://www.commandprompt.com
> Editor-N-Chief - PostgreSQl.Org - http://www.postgresql.org 
> 
> 


-- 
Keith C. Perry, MS E.E.
Director of Networks & Applications
VCSN, Inc.
http://vcsn.com
 
____________________________________
This email account is being host by:
VCSN, Inc : http://vcsn.com

Wed,  7 Jan 2004 01:57:02 -0500
"Keith C. Perry" <netadmin@vcsn.com>
Re: Paypal WAS: PostgreSQL speakers needed for OSCON
Quoting Alex Satrapa <alex@lintelsys.com.au>:

> Joshua D. Drake wrote:
> > Breaking the law isn't the way to change any of it.
> 
> Mahatma Ghandi would disagree with you on that.  Unfair laws shouldn't 
> be obeyed, especially where (as with the Indian salt tax) the laws have 
> been specifically set up to promote corporate wellbeing (some might say 
> welfare) at the expense of the people.
> 
> Alex Satrapa
> 
> 
> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
> TIP 6: Have you searched our list archives?
> 
>                http://archives.postgresql.org
> 

As long as we as human beings continue to gravity towards a concept of have and
have-nots then the only way to change an existing system will to call attention
to it.  The only way to do that is to "challange" that system.  Sometimes its
breaking the law, sometimes its a sit-in sometimes is the courage of a singular
individual, sometimes is the cowardice of a group.

The haves will in more cases than not do things at the expense of the have-nots

-- 
Keith C. Perry, MS E.E.
Director of Networks & Applications
VCSN, Inc.
http://vcsn.com
 
____________________________________
This email account is being host by:
VCSN, Inc : http://vcsn.com

Wed,  7 Jan 2004 02:14:51 -0500
"Keith C. Perry" <netadmin@vcsn.com>
Re: Paypal WAS: PostgreSQL speakers needed for OSCON
I personally think that breaking the law is a last resort.

Ghandi was successful.  The successes of the Tieneman(sp?) square protesters
is only now really becoming aparent, as well.  The point is that when it is
the last resort, it should be done publically, with one's identity known.

You cannot compare anonymously downloading pirated software or music to the
legitimate acts of civil disobedience.  The point is that civil
disobedience, done publically and strongly, sends a powerful message, and
the message is all the more powerful based on the willingness to spend time
in jail over it.

I am all for destroying our system of record labels today (I do NOT think
they serve much of a purpose anymore) but you have to replace it with
something better, not just hoping that the RIAA will eventually decide to
change their strategies.  The only change that will happen here will be a
hardening of it.

If you want to pirate music as civil disobedience, actually do something
noteworthy and send letters to the law enforcement agencies documenting your
approach and why you are doing it.  Indicate that you will IN NO WAY pay
damages to the RIAA or any related companies, and are willing to spend years
in jail as a way of proving your point.  Then publicize, publicize,
publicize.  But I do not think that this is necessary... yet...
Best Wishes,
Chrs Travers

----- Original Message -----
From: "Alex Satrapa" <alex@lintelsys.com.au>
To: <pgsql-advocacy@postgresql.org>
Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2004 11:45 AM
Subject: Re: [pgsql-advocacy] Paypal WAS: PostgreSQL speakers needed for
OSCON


> Joshua D. Drake wrote:
> > Breaking the law isn't the way to change any of it.
>
> Mahatma Ghandi would disagree with you on that.  Unfair laws shouldn't
> be obeyed, especially where (as with the Indian salt tax) the laws have
> been specifically set up to promote corporate wellbeing (some might say
> welfare) at the expense of the people.
>
> Alex Satrapa
>
>
> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
> TIP 6: Have you searched our list archives?
>
>                http://archives.postgresql.org
>
>



Wed, 7 Jan 2004 14:32:22 +0700
"Chris Travers" <chris@travelamericas.com>
Re: Paypal WAS: PostgreSQL speakers needed for OSCON
Quoth chris@travelamericas.com ("Chris Travers"):
> I personally think that breaking the law is a last resort.
>
> Ghandi was successful.  The successes of the Tieneman(sp?) square
> protesters is only now really becoming aparent, as well.  The point
> is that when it is the last resort, it should be done publically,
> with one's identity known.
>
> You cannot compare anonymously downloading pirated software or music
> to the legitimate acts of civil disobedience.  The point is that
> civil disobedience, done publically and strongly, sends a powerful
> message, and the message is all the more powerful based on the
> willingness to spend time in jail over it.

There's a VERY large difference between Ghandi and "music pirates."

(Aside: I consider "piracy" to be a _terrible_ term to use, since the
crime by that name, as traditionally and even still practiced, is a
HORRIBLY violent crime.  Once a pirate has seized a ship and robbed
cargo, adding rape and murder to their list of crimes is quite
typical, and refugees that flee frightening places by boat are quite
likely to be able to attest to that sort of thing...)

Ghandi accepted that the legal system was going to do something unjust
to him, and depended on the fact that people would regard this as a
revolting result necessitating a "revolt" against the then-current
state of the legal system.

If the people "stealing music" were doing so out of an intent to a
similar sort of "civil disobedience," they would be documenting this
carefully, sending in signed confessions that "I just broke the DMCA
when, on 2003-07-01, I copied [Song] by [Artist].  Do your worst; it's
clearly unjust, and I will be reporting publicly whatever you do to
me."

There are _some_ instances of that sort of thing happening today; the
cases I have mostly heard of are where anti-abortion protestors ask
the courts to give them maximum sentences after they have done things
they regard as right but which the law considers, um, "not so great."
They may be pretty "way out there" in terms of some of their
principles, but they're operating rather closer to Ghandi's model of
"civil disobedience" than totally unprincipled teenagers ripping CDs
or DVDs.
-- 
let name="aa454" and tld="freenet.carleton.ca" in name ^ "@" ^ tld;;
http://www.ntlug.org/~cbbrowne/languages.html
"People who don't use computers are more sociable, reasonable, and ...
less twisted" -- Arthur Norman

Wed, 07 Jan 2004 08:19:21 -0500
Christopher Browne <cbbrowne@acm.org>
Re: Paypal WAS: PostgreSQL speakers needed for OSCON
On Wed, Jan 07, 2004 at 01:57:02 -0500,
  "Keith C. Perry" <netadmin@vcsn.com> wrote:
> 
> True but in some case "enabling" is also a crime.  Take the case with the guy
> who wanted to make a dvd player for linux.  Even though he did nothing illegal
> the circuit court still deemed it illegal for the exploits and methods for DVD
> encryption to be available since in their option the only reason to have that
> information would be to copy a DVD with is "illegal".  Again this guy gets a
> negative denotation associated with him because he, in reality, did nothing more
> than expose a technical failing in a technology and then use it to complete a
> project.  Had commericial companies been more receptive to software DVD player
> at that time, weakness in the technology might not have never been exposed.  It
> actually funny how we treat people sometimes.

John wasn't in the US. The MPAA tried to make an example of him by pressuring
the Norwegian government to go after him. Just with in the last week the
goverment decided not to appeal the case any further.

DVD encryption is not useful against real pirates. They can just copy the
entire DVD. It is used to enforce region codes and macrovision by forcing
DVD makers to aggree to that as part of their license to get decryption
keys so that they can make DVD players that can play encrypted disks.
Fortunately many of the Asian DVD player makers know that consumers don't
want DVD players which enforce region codes (and to some extent macrovision)
and somehow their test mode codes that disable these features somehow manage
to leak out on the internet after their product is on the shelves in major
markets.

Depending on where you live it isn't necessarily illegal to make copies
of a DVD, especially if it is a backup copy for your personal use.

Wed, 7 Jan 2004 09:46:55 -0600
Bruno Wolff III <bruno@wolff.to>
Re: Paypal WAS: PostgreSQL speakers needed for OSCON
Chris Travers wrote:
> I personally think that breaking the law is a last resort.
> 
> Ghandi was successful.  The successes of the Tieneman(sp?) square protesters
> is only now really becoming apparent, as well.  The point is that when it is
> the last resort, it should be done , with one's identity known.
> 
> You cannot compare anonymously downloading pirated software or music to the
> legitimate acts of civil disobedience.  The point is that civil
> disobedience, done publicly and strongly, sends a powerful message, and
> the message is all the more powerful based on the willingness to spend time
> in jail over it.
> 
> I am all for destroying our system of record labels today (I do NOT think
> they serve much of a purpose anymore) but you have to replace it with
> something better, not just hoping that the RIAA will eventually decide to
> change their strategies.  The only change that will happen here will be a
> hardening of it.
> 
> If you want to pirate music as civil disobedience, actually do something
> noteworthy and send letters to the law enforcement agencies documenting your
> approach and why you are doing it.  Indicate that you will IN NO WAY pay
> damages to the RIAA or any related companies, and are willing to spend years
> in jail as a way of proving your point.  Then publicize, publicize,
> publicize.  But I do not think that this is necessary... yet...

Yes, I think the big point is whether you are gaining anything
personally from the illegal activities.  If you are, you have to ask
yourself if you are doing it because you want to protest or because you
want to get benefit from the action.

I don't think in the Ghandi or Tieneman cases that the protesters
benefited, and in fact went through great hardship.  It was clear that
they were doing it out of conscious.  The MP3/DVD/Kazaa cases are
unclear because there is benefit from the actions.

Frankly I think 99% of it is getting something for free, and I think it
is more prevalent because it is so _easy_ to do.  It is not like walking
into a bank and taking money, and it isn't taking something that
deprives someone else of also having it, so it has a shared value that
doesn't diminish if multiple people own it, which also make it more
prevalent.

[ Am I far enough off topic yet?  :-) ]

-- 
  Bruce Momjian                        |  http://candle.pha.pa.us
  pgman@candle.pha.pa.us               |  (610) 359-1001
  +  If your life is a hard drive,     |  13 Roberts Road
  +  Christ can be your backup.        |  Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073

Wed, 7 Jan 2004 12:42:52 -0500 (EST)
Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>
Re: Paypal WAS: PostgreSQL speakers needed for OSCON
>
>
>
>Two thing you seem to overlook.  First, in regards to a decent retirment plan, 
>in this country we are forced to pay into a system like social security even 
>though we may never recieve a dime from it.  I can think of a lot better ways 
>to invest my money than handing it over via FICA. 
>
>  
>
Sure, so can I and I make sure that I take advantage of it. That doesn't 
change the argument.


>Second, while they can choose to avoid fast food, poor people can't afford 
>food of the same quality that rich people can afford.  Ever notice how 
>"organic food" is generally more expensive than it's regular counterparts?  
>Or fresh produce is more expensive than it's canned counterparts?  Sure you 
>can tell people they just need to "try harder", but it glosses over a lot of 
>details in actually being successfull...
>  
>
I had this argument with a friend of mine recently. Just because the 
food isn't organic doesn't mean
it is "bad" for you. Also canned food is fine for you. In fact if you 
are smart about the way you shop
you can easily eat reasonably healthy without breaking the bank... even 
if you are poor.

Simple example:

BigMac Value Meal contains something like 3 times the fat you should 
have in a day AND
what 1500? calories.... It will cost you about 4.00 bucks.

A box of nutragrain bars will cost 2.99 and will feed you breakfast for 
a week. Nutrgrain
bars are what I would consider "the most healthy" but they are as good 
or better for you than
a bowl of serial.


>>-Mart all disgust me...
>>
>>Breaking the law isn't the way to change any of it.
>>
>>    
>>
>
>You haven't studied your history Joshua. Civil disobedience has always been a 
>useful tool in changing a societies laws.
>
You are confusing Civil Disobedience with breaking the law. They are 
different things. Perhaps you
should reivew your history.

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake


-- 
Command Prompt, Inc., home of Mammoth PostgreSQL - S/ODBC and S/JDBC
Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting.
+1-503-222-2783 - jd@commandprompt.com - http://www.commandprompt.com
Editor-N-Chief - PostgreSQl.Org - http://www.postgresql.org 










Two thing you seem to overlook.  First, in regards to a decent retirment plan, 
in this country we are forced to pay into a system like social security even 
though we may never recieve a dime from it.  I can think of a lot better ways 
to invest my money than handing it over via FICA. 

  

Sure, so can I and I make sure that I take advantage of it. That
doesn't change the argument.



Second, while they can choose to avoid fast food, poor people can't afford 
food of the same quality that rich people can afford.  Ever notice how 
"organic food" is generally more expensive than it's regular counterparts?  
Or fresh produce is more expensive than it's canned counterparts?  Sure you 
can tell people they just need to "try harder", but it glosses over a lot of 
details in actually being successfull...
  

I had this argument with a friend of mine recently. Just because the
food isn't organic doesn't mean
it is "bad" for you. Also canned food is fine for you. In fact if you
are smart about the way you shop
you can easily eat reasonably healthy without breaking the bank... even
if you are poor.

Simple example:

BigMac Value Meal contains something like 3 times the fat you should
have in a day AND
what 1500? calories.... It will cost you about 4.00 bucks.

A box of nutragrain bars will cost 2.99 and will feed you breakfast for
a week. Nutrgrain
bars are what I would consider "the most healthy" but they are as good
or better for you than
a bowl of serial.




-Mart all disgust me...

Breaking the law isn't the way to change any of it.

    


You haven't studied your history Joshua. Civil disobedience has always been a 
useful tool in changing a societies laws.

You are confusing Civil Disobedience with breaking the law. They are
different things. Perhaps you
should reivew your history.

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake


-- 
Command Prompt, Inc., home of Mammoth PostgreSQL - S/ODBC and S/JDBC
Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting.
+1-503-222-2783 - jd@commandprompt.com - http://www.commandprompt.com
Editor-N-Chief - PostgreSQl.Org - http://www.postgresql.org
Wed, 07 Jan 2004 10:52:35 -0800
"Joshua D. Drake" <jd@commandprompt.com>
Re: OFF TOPIC!! Re: Paypal WAS: PostgreSQL speakers
Quoting Bruno Wolff III <bruno@wolff.to>:

> On Wed, Jan 07, 2004 at 01:57:02 -0500,
>   "Keith C. Perry" <netadmin@vcsn.com> wrote:
> > 
> > True but in some case "enabling" is also a crime.  Take the case with the
> guy
> > who wanted to make a dvd player for linux.  Even though he did nothing
> illegal
> > the circuit court still deemed it illegal for the exploits and methods for
> DVD
> > encryption to be available since in their option the only reason to have
> that
> > information would be to copy a DVD with is "illegal".  Again this guy gets
> a
> > negative denotation associated with him because he, in reality, did nothing
> more
> > than expose a technical failing in a technology and then use it to complete
> a
> > project.  Had commericial companies been more receptive to software DVD
> player
> > at that time, weakness in the technology might not have never been exposed.
>  It
> > actually funny how we treat people sometimes.
> 
> John wasn't in the US. The MPAA tried to make an example of him by
> pressuring
> the Norwegian government to go after him. Just with in the last week the
> goverment decided not to appeal the case any further.

Ahhh, thanks for the update.  I didn't realize he wasn't an American citizen.

> DVD encryption is not useful against real pirates. They can just copy the
> entire DVD. It is used to enforce region codes and macrovision by forcing
> DVD makers to aggree to that as part of their license to get decryption
> keys so that they can make DVD players that can play encrypted disks.
> Fortunately many of the Asian DVD player makers know that consumers don't
> want DVD players which enforce region codes (and to some extent macrovision)
> and somehow their test mode codes that disable these features somehow manage
> to leak out on the internet after their product is on the shelves in major
> markets.

I never got that region thing (thus in my mind it had to be a marketing ploy). 
Gotta love Asia for having for some foresight on that on.

> Depending on where you live it isn't necessarily illegal to make copies
> of a DVD, especially if it is a backup copy for your personal use.
> 

Heheh, I'll leave that discussion for another thread  :)

-- 
Keith C. Perry, MS E.E.
Director of Networks & Applications
VCSN, Inc.
http://vcsn.com
 
____________________________________
This email account is being host by:
VCSN, Inc : http://vcsn.com

Wed,  7 Jan 2004 13:56:08 -0500
"Keith C. Perry" <netadmin@vcsn.com>
Re: Paypal WAS: PostgreSQL speakers needed for OSCON
On Wed, 2004-01-07 at 12:42, Bruce Momjian wrote:
> Chris Travers wrote:
> > I personally think that breaking the law is a last resort.
> > 
> > Ghandi was successful.  The successes of the Tieneman(sp?) square protesters
> > is only now really becoming apparent, as well.  The point is that when it is
> > the last resort, it should be done , with one's identity known.
> > 
> > You cannot compare anonymously downloading pirated software or music to the
> > legitimate acts of civil disobedience.  The point is that civil
> > disobedience, done publicly and strongly, sends a powerful message, and
> > the message is all the more powerful based on the willingness to spend time
> > in jail over it.
> > 
> > I am all for destroying our system of record labels today (I do NOT think
> > they serve much of a purpose anymore) but you have to replace it with
> > something better, not just hoping that the RIAA will eventually decide to
> > change their strategies.  The only change that will happen here will be a
> > hardening of it.
> > 
> > If you want to pirate music as civil disobedience, actually do something
> > noteworthy and send letters to the law enforcement agencies documenting your
> > approach and why you are doing it.  Indicate that you will IN NO WAY pay
> > damages to the RIAA or any related companies, and are willing to spend years
> > in jail as a way of proving your point.  Then publicize, publicize,
> > publicize.  But I do not think that this is necessary... yet...
> 
> Yes, I think the big point is whether you are gaining anything
> personally from the illegal activities.  If you are, you have to ask
> yourself if you are doing it because you want to protest or because you
> want to get benefit from the action.
> 
> I don't think in the Ghandi or Tieneman cases that the protesters
> benefited, and in fact went through great hardship.  It was clear that
> they were doing it out of conscious.  The MP3/DVD/Kazaa cases are
> unclear because there is benefit from the actions.
> 
> Frankly I think 99% of it is getting something for free, and I think it
> is more prevalent because it is so _easy_ to do.  It is not like walking
> into a bank and taking money, and it isn't taking something that
> deprives someone else of also having it, so it has a shared value that
> doesn't diminish if multiple people own it, which also make it more
> prevalent.
> 
> [ Am I far enough off topic yet?  :-) ]
> 

Let me toss in the anecdote that my TV broke a couple weeks ago, so
we've been using an old TV that doesn't have any digital inputs. In
order to hook up the dvd player we have to run it through the VCR, but
alas in the infinite wisdom of the conglomerates you can't play DVD's*
through a VCR due to the copy protection programs. I'm not trying to
pirate/steal/whatever anything, I'd just like to watch the DVD's I have
purchased legally without buying new hardware... This little episode is
sure to curtail my DVD spending habits this coming year... 


*not all DVD's have the copy protection program, but most of the newer
ones do. I was able to rent winged migration and watch that the other
night... 

Robert Treat
-- 
Build A Brighter Lamp :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL


07 Jan 2004 14:03:00 -0500
Robert Treat <xzilla@users.sourceforge.net>
OT: DVD Woes WAS: Paypal WAS: PostgreSQL speakers
	needed for OSCON
Chris Travers wrote:
> You cannot compare anonymously downloading pirated software

If you call it "pirating" to obtain a copy of a work that is no longer 
published, that was written, performed and originally published by 
people who are long since dead, then you're playing the RIAA or BSA game.

Using the term "piracy" to describe copyright infringement dilutes the word.

"Piracy" means raiding a ship at sea and taking its goods by force (ie: 
the maritime equivalent of highway robbery). It is also associated (by 
law) with the slave trade. Thus the crime of piracy means you take goods 
by force, deal in slaves, or associate with people who do so.

The act of taking a copy of a copyrighted work and not crediting the 
source or paying royalties, is "copyright infringement". It's not even 
theft, since the person who made the work is not deprived of the use of 
their work, only the royalties thereof.

So please, call a spade a spade.

> I am all for destroying our system of record labels today (I do NOT think
> they serve much of a purpose anymore) but you have to replace it with
> something better,

That something better was MP3.com - sign up unknown artists, distribute 
their songs as MP3s. A whole album for $US6 (plus download costs and 
time), most of which goes to the artist?  What a deal!  I loved it, it's 
just a pity the RIAA didn't like the competition.

I'm certain that groups such as orchestras and garage bands would love 
to have the opportunity to be published without selling their lives to 
the RIAA.

One of the reasons I love Free software is that I can happily use it and 
modify it to my heart's content without fear of recrimination. If I have 
a problem with (for example) tcpdump, I can change the software to do 
what I want it to (eg: parse a new protocol I'm working on) - and if the 
work is good enough, the author of the program will actually be *happy* 
that I've done something with it.

How do you think the RIAA would feel about you sending them a 
dance/house album that you've composited and blended from a bunch of 
their copyrighted works? You'd end up in gaol in no time flat.  How do 
you think Microsoft would feel about you sending in a bugfix to Excel? 
You'd end up in gaol for reverse engineering without permission, for 
starters (isn't the DMCA wonderful? aren't extradition treaties wonderful?)

I personally don't see the sense in copyrights and patents on software - 
innovation in the software industry is usually incremental. I believe 
Free software will triumph over proprietary software simply because the 
authors have the freedom to borrow ideas and build on other's successes.

Alex Satrapa


Thu, 08 Jan 2004 09:22:06 +1100
Alex Satrapa <alex@lintelsys.com.au>
[OT]"Copyright infringement" vs "piracy" (was Re:
 Paypal)