
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1


> Nothing.  We even have audio files on the website so there is 
> no question on how to pronounce it.  Some folks just aren't 
> happy unless they can change what doesn't need changing is 
> all.  I guess it's their way of contributing.

I don't understand some of the animosity I have seen towards 
what I consider a positive change. It obviously does need 
changing, otherwise so many people would not be discussing it. 
An audio file on the website is not going to help people who 
are reading the word inside text somewhere. The very fact that 
such an audio file even needs to exist should be telling us 
something. It was created because people were having a hard time 
pronouncing it. Saying that people can pronounce it properly 
because there is an audio file smacks of circular logic.

> However, we all have taken a *lot* of time and effort to get 
> the name "PostgreSQL" recognised, and we should continue on 
> doing this.  Nowdays I'm finding it very unusual to see new 
> articles and publications going online and getting it wrong, 
> meaning that although there are legacy documents out there 
> refering to "Postgres", most of the new stuff online is 
> calling it the proper "PostgreSQL".

Sorry, but the shortcut "Postgres" is alive and kicking. Look 
anywhere, even in the mailing lists. The default user is 
"postgres" not "postgresql". Another point is that postgres 
fits in the 8.3 naming schema, which is not really used anymore, 
but does serve as a fairly good rule of thumb. A product name 
should be 8 letters or less (Linux, Apache, Windows, Sybase, 
Oracle, Ingres, Sybase, MySQL, Apache, tinydns, sendmail, qmail, 
iptables, etc.) (Microsoft products are an exception of course, 
but they have the marketing power to name something 
"throatwobblermangrove" and still have the masses purchase it :)

I might agree somewhat with the "don't break tradition" argument 
if there had been a concerted effort from the start to 
*dissuade* people from using the word "postgres", but as far as 
I can tell, most people involved with Postgre[sS][QL] don't 
really care which one is being used, and all other things being 
equal, tend to simplify it to the shorter form, especially 
when talking out loud.

I've given presentations on Postgres to technical and 
non-technical people, and always have to throw in a section 
at the start about the name - how to pronounce the "long form", 
how it came about, and to not worry about which term I use 
within the presentation, since they are synonymous. I'd rather 
spend that time extolling some of the better virtues of the 
product, rather than trying to explain why we smushed a word 
and an acronym together into something awkward to pronounce. 
Perhaps that's the best way to put it: the word is not difficult 
to pronounce, but it is awkward.



Greg Sabino Mullane  greg@turnstep.com
PGP Key: 0x14964AC8 200207081020

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Mon,  8 Jul 2002 14:28:58 -0000
"Greg Sabino Mullane" <greg@turnstep.com>
Re: I am being interviewed by OReilly
On Mon, 8 Jul 2002, Greg Sabino Mullane wrote:

>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
>
> > Nothing.  We even have audio files on the website so there is
> > no question on how to pronounce it.  Some folks just aren't
> > happy unless they can change what doesn't need changing is
> > all.  I guess it's their way of contributing.
>
> I don't understand some of the animosity I have seen towards
> what I consider a positive change. It obviously does need
> changing, otherwise so many people would not be discussing it.

Funny, that's just about the same argument the pro GPL people use
when the licensing discussion comes up.

> An audio file on the website is not going to help people who
> are reading the word inside text somewhere. The very fact that
> such an audio file even needs to exist should be telling us
> something. It was created because people were having a hard time
> pronouncing it. Saying that people can pronounce it properly
> because there is an audio file smacks of circular logic.

That's not what was said.  Some people can play it over and over and
still not be able to pronounce it.  Same with my last name and yours
for all that matter.  But that's no reason to change it, or are you
willing to change your last name so all of use can pronounce it?  The
audio file is there so if someone wants to know how it's really
pronounced they can click on it and listen.

Tell me, do you pronounce "Linux" the same way Linus does or some
other way?   Should "Linux" be changed to something that has a more
common pronunciation?  And yes, I know how Linus pronounces it, I've
heard it - someone sent me an mp3 of it.

Vince.
-- 
==========================================================================
Vince Vielhaber -- KA8CSH    email: vev@michvhf.com    http://www.pop4.net
         56K Nationwide Dialup from $16.00/mo at Pop4 Networking
        Online Campground Directory    http://www.camping-usa.com
       Online Giftshop Superstore    http://www.cloudninegifts.com
==========================================================================






Mon, 8 Jul 2002 21:09:20 -0400 (EDT)
Vince Vielhaber <vev@michvhf.com>
Re: I am being interviewed by OReilly
> I don't understand some of the animosity I have seen towards
> what I consider a positive change. It obviously does need
> changing, otherwise so many people would not be discussing it.

Well, it is the same reaction you would have if someone walked up to you
and said "your child has a stupid name. You need to give it another
one". At least you didn't call our child ugly too ;)

I know that "you" is also one of "us", but the point is mostly the
same...

afaict the name has not inhibited our market acceptance. But maybe I'm
giving too much credit to suits' abilities to cope.

PgSQL works for me if I'm wanting an all-acronym acronym, and I've been
known to write and use "Postgres" as a synonym. But historically we
needed to differentiate the name from PostQuel-enabled Postgres. It
could be worse: we could have stuck with Postgres95 (ack, spit).

                    - Thomas



Mon, 08 Jul 2002 19:47:46 -0700
Thomas Lockhart <lockhart@fourpalms.org>
Re: I am being interviewed by OReilly
On Mon, 8 Jul 2002, Greg Sabino Mullane wrote:

> Sorry, but the shortcut "Postgres" is alive and kicking. Look anywhere,
> even in the mailing lists. The default user is "postgres" not
> "postgresql". Another point is that postgres fits in the 8.3 naming
> schema

Sorry, but you just lost your argument the moment you throw out M$/DOS
standards as something to live by ...





Tue, 9 Jul 2002 02:18:30 -0300 (ADT)
"Marc G. Fournier" <scrappy@hub.org>
Re: I am being interviewed by OReilly
On Mon, 8 Jul 2002, Vince Vielhaber wrote:

> That's not what was said.  Some people can play it over and over and
> still not be able to pronounce it.  Same with my last name and yours
> for all that matter.  But that's no reason to change it, or are you
> willing to change your last name so all of use can pronounce it?

Woah! I gather you are a techie, and don't care much about marketing, hmm?

Personally, if I were trying to market myself to a broader audience
than I have now, I would almost certainly change my name to something
less confusing, more memorable and easier to pronounce. And many others
agree with me, judging by the number of celebrities and wanna-be
celebrities that have done so. Not to mention products that have been
rebranded every decade or three to change with the changing tastes of
the target market.

A lot of the things that market-oriented folks want to do (such as
changing a name) may seem stupid and useless to you, as a techie, but
that doesn't mean that they don't work. It just means that they don't
work on people like you, who comprise a very small market. (I'm in that
market too, by the way; I just recognise that most people do not make
decisions the way I do about what to purchase and/or use.)

I don't know if you were one of the ones complaining about postgres not
being so popular (as, say, compared to MySQL), but if you want it to be
more popular, trying to stop the folks interesting in marketing it from
marketing it is not the way to help things.

> Tell me, do you pronounce "Linux" the same way Linus does or some
> other way?   Should "Linux" be changed to something that has a more
> common pronunciation?  And yes, I know how Linus pronounces it, I've
> heard it - someone sent me an mp3 of it.

This is a quite different situation. Linux is almost never misspelled,
or broken up into two incorrect pieces, and Linux is dead easy to
pronounce in English, even if it's not the same ("correct") Finnish
pronounciation. The incorrect pronounciation of "Linux" is no worse
a problem than your undoubtedly incorrect pronounciation of "Nissan,"
"Toyota", "Tokyo", and many other Japanese words (or the Japanese
pronounciation of many popular foreign names).

cjs
-- 
Curt Sampson  <cjs@cynic.net>   +81 90 7737 2974   http://www.netbsd.org
    Don't you know, in this new Dark Age, we're all light.  --XTC




Tue, 9 Jul 2002 20:15:31 +0900 (JST)
Curt Sampson <cjs@cynic.net>
Re: I am being interviewed by OReilly
On Mon, 8 Jul 2002, Thomas Lockhart wrote:

> > I don't understand some of the animosity I have seen towards
> > what I consider a positive change. It obviously does need
> > changing, otherwise so many people would not be discussing it.
>
> Well, it is the same reaction you would have if someone walked up to you
> and said "your child has a stupid name. You need to give it another
> one". At least you didn't call our child ugly too ;)

Another way of putting it ... alot of ppl name their child 'Samantha', but
how many refer to them as 'Sam' in everyday conversation?  One of their
'formal, on paper' name, the other is their common name *shrug*



Tue, 9 Jul 2002 11:21:57 -0300 (ADT)
"Marc G. Fournier" <scrappy@hub.org>
Re: I am being interviewed by OReilly
Curt Sampson wrote:
> On Mon, 8 Jul 2002, Vince Vielhaber wrote:
> 
> > That's not what was said.  Some people can play it over and over and
> > still not be able to pronounce it.  Same with my last name and yours
> > for all that matter.  But that's no reason to change it, or are you
> > willing to change your last name so all of use can pronounce it?
> 
> Woah! I gather you are a techie, and don't care much about marketing, hmm?
> 
> Personally, if I were trying to market myself to a broader audience
> than I have now, I would almost certainly change my name to something
> less confusing, more memorable and easier to pronounce. And many others
> agree with me, judging by the number of celebrities and wanna-be
> celebrities that have done so. Not to mention products that have been
> rebranded every decade or three to change with the changing tastes of
> the target market.
> 
> A lot of the things that market-oriented folks want to do (such as
> changing a name) may seem stupid and useless to you, as a techie, but
> that doesn't mean that they don't work. It just means that they don't
> work on people like you, who comprise a very small market. (I'm in that
> market too, by the way; I just recognise that most people do not make
> decisions the way I do about what to purchase and/or use.)
> 
> I don't know if you were one of the ones complaining about postgres not
> being so popular (as, say, compared to MySQL), but if you want it to be
> more popular, trying to stop the folks interesting in marketing it from
> marketing it is not the way to help things.

I totally agree.  The name has proven to be hard to pronounce, and that
is bad for marketing, period.  Is marketing important enough to change
the name?  That is the question.

-- 
  Bruce Momjian                        |  http://candle.pha.pa.us
  pgman@candle.pha.pa.us               |  (610) 853-3000
  +  If your life is a hard drive,     |  830 Blythe Avenue
  +  Christ can be your backup.        |  Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026

Tue, 9 Jul 2002 12:28:44 -0400 (EDT)
Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>
Re: I am being interviewed by OReilly
On Tue, 9 Jul 2002, Bruce Momjian wrote:

> I totally agree.  The name has proven to be hard to pronounce, and that
> is bad for marketing, period.  Is marketing important enough to change
> the name?  That is the question.

No, period.

For starters, ppl are confusing 'word of mouth' with marketing, which they
aren't the same ...

Marketing *is* the 8 or so books on the shelves and at Amazon for
PostgreSQL, and the ones to follow ...

Marketing is the thousands of t-shirts and mugs and CDs that have gone out
over the past 4+ years ...

Marketing is the countless articles/reviews that ppl have written that
talk about PostgreSQL ...

Marketing is the awards we have won over the years ...

Marketing is proliferation of the newsgroups over the 'Net over the past
4+ years ...

Marketing is the countless companies out there that offer PostgreSQL
services, support *and* training ...

If ppl want to be lazy and call it Postgres, so be it ... as I mentioned
before, its like calling Samantha, Sam ... but the formal name itself is,
and will remain, PostgreSQL ... its what *alot* of us have been marketing
for years now, period.



Tue, 9 Jul 2002 14:09:23 -0300 (ADT)
"Marc G. Fournier" <scrappy@hub.org>
Re: I am being interviewed by OReilly
Marc G. Fournier wrote:
> On Tue, 9 Jul 2002, Bruce Momjian wrote:
> 
> > I totally agree.  The name has proven to be hard to pronounce, and that
> > is bad for marketing, period.  Is marketing important enough to change
> > the name?  That is the question.
> 
> No, period.
> 
> For starters, ppl are confusing 'word of mouth' with marketing, which they
> aren't the same ...
> 
> Marketing *is* the 8 or so books on the shelves and at Amazon for
> PostgreSQL, and the ones to follow ...

So you think, even marketing-wise that PostgreSQL is better.  At a
minimum, we should add "also called 'postgres'" to all our introductory
documentation.

-- 
  Bruce Momjian                        |  http://candle.pha.pa.us
  pgman@candle.pha.pa.us               |  (610) 853-3000
  +  If your life is a hard drive,     |  830 Blythe Avenue
  +  Christ can be your backup.        |  Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026

Tue, 9 Jul 2002 13:32:23 -0400 (EDT)
Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>
Re: I am being interviewed by OReilly
On Tue, 9 Jul 2002, Bruce Momjian wrote:

> Marc G. Fournier wrote:
> > On Tue, 9 Jul 2002, Bruce Momjian wrote:
> >
> > > I totally agree.  The name has proven to be hard to pronounce, and that
> > > is bad for marketing, period.  Is marketing important enough to change
> > > the name?  That is the question.
> >
> > No, period.
> >
> > For starters, ppl are confusing 'word of mouth' with marketing, which they
> > aren't the same ...
> >
> > Marketing *is* the 8 or so books on the shelves and at Amazon for
> > PostgreSQL, and the ones to follow ...
>
> So you think, even marketing-wise that PostgreSQL is better.  At a
> minimum, we should add "also called 'postgres'" to all our introductory
> documentation.

I do agree with this ... in fact, it shoudl go as far as saying something
like:

PostgreSQL (aka PgSQL aka Postgres aka Pg) ... ppl use all the various
forms ...

Note that the lists themselves act as their own marketing ...
pgsql-*@postgresql.org ... and all the search engines have postgresql.org
in them, and, I'm sorry, but someones lame argument about 'whether to
search for postgres or postgresql' ... like, come on ... if you have any
doubt, just search for postgres, it *is* a sub-string of the formal name
...





Tue, 9 Jul 2002 14:45:57 -0300 (ADT)
"Marc G. Fournier" <scrappy@hub.org>
Re: I am being interviewed by OReilly
I hate to play devil's advocate, but isn't the reason it is called
PostgreSQL now due to marketing? As I understand it, the name PostgreSQL
came about because the development team wanted to convey the fact that
Postgres95 was now an SQL based DBMS. From a technical standpoint
there's no reason it couldn't be called Postgres2002 or some such
nonsense, but it might be more cryptic as to what purpose it serves.
That's marketing, pure and simple. 

Robert Treat

On Tue, 2002-07-09 at 13:09, Marc G. Fournier wrote:
> On Tue, 9 Jul 2002, Bruce Momjian wrote:
> 
> > I totally agree.  The name has proven to be hard to pronounce, and that
> > is bad for marketing, period.  Is marketing important enough to change
> > the name?  That is the question.
> 
> No, period.
> 
> For starters, ppl are confusing 'word of mouth' with marketing, which they
> aren't the same ...
> 
> Marketing *is* the 8 or so books on the shelves and at Amazon for
> PostgreSQL, and the ones to follow ...
> 
> Marketing is the thousands of t-shirts and mugs and CDs that have gone out
> over the past 4+ years ...
> 
> Marketing is the countless articles/reviews that ppl have written that
> talk about PostgreSQL ...
> 
> Marketing is the awards we have won over the years ...
> 
> Marketing is proliferation of the newsgroups over the 'Net over the past
> 4+ years ...
> 
> Marketing is the countless companies out there that offer PostgreSQL
> services, support *and* training ...
> 
> If ppl want to be lazy and call it Postgres, so be it ... as I mentioned
> before, its like calling Samantha, Sam ... but the formal name itself is,
> and will remain, PostgreSQL ... its what *alot* of us have been marketing
> for years now, period.
>



09 Jul 2002 14:06:20 -0400
Robert Treat <rtreat@webmd.net>
Re: I am being interviewed by OReilly
On Tue, 9 Jul 2002, Bruce Momjian wrote:
>Curt Sampson wrote:
>> Personally, if I were trying to market myself to a broader audience
>> than I have now, I would almost certainly change my name to something
>> less confusing, more memorable and easier to pronounce. And many others
>> agree with me, judging by the number of celebrities and wanna-be
>> celebrities that have done so. Not to mention products that have been
>> rebranded every decade or three to change with the changing tastes of
>> the target market.

 While I think I agree with Curt, I don't thing that it is an *urgent*
problem that is plaguing Postgres[QL]. Funny thing on /. today with
regards to OpenBeOS interviews:

" The answer to all the 'is there room in the market?' questions was
answered in a way: 'We are an OSS project. Marketing is not our job.' "

 Although I do wish that Postgres had better market presence. It is
certainly my DB of choice, but many people I have to work with/for will
first ask 'do you support MySQL?'. Now we've *had* to support MySQL, but I
believe that this is only because of its popularity and market presence.
I'd love to tell them all 'no, we support Postgres[QL] which offers a
whole lot more'.

Cheers,

Chris

-- 

Christopher Murtagh
Webmaster / Sysadmin
Web Communications Group
McGill University
Montreal, Quebec
Canada

Tel.: (514) 398-3122
Fax:  (514) 398-2017



Tue, 9 Jul 2002 16:14:36 -0400 (EDT)
Christopher Murtagh <christopher.murtagh@mcgill.ca>
Re: I am being interviewed by OReilly
On Tue, 9 Jul 2002, Marc G. Fournier wrote:

> PostgreSQL (aka PgSQL aka Postgres aka Pg) ... ppl use all the various
> forms ...

Having to say that is a very, very good reason to just change the name
back to "postgres" *everywhere*, and stick with that.

> Note that the lists themselves act as their own marketing ...
> pgsql-*@postgresql.org ... and all the search engines have
> postgresql.org in them....

Is there a difficulty in using postgres.org instead?

> , and, I'm sorry, but someones lame argument about 'whether to search
> for postgres or postgresql' ... like, come on ... if you have any
> doubt, just search for postgres, it *is* a sub-string of the formal
> name

I did search. A search for "postgres" turns up only one quarter of the
hits, does not turn up the advertisement for postgresql documentation,
and the second link is to a page called "University POSTGRES 4.2".

The advertisement thing worries me particularly; it means that
advertisers have to advertise on more keywords in order to achieve
reasonable coverage.

Now, having done a web search on "pgsql", I can now see your difficulty
with the name change; you are the president of a company called
"PostgreSQL Inc." Why didn't you just say this from the beginnning?
Nobody here is trying to make life difficult for those promoting
postgres, and if you really are marketing the "PostgreSQL" name hard,
maybe we shouldn't change it. But I'm not seeing a lot of evidence of
that marketing, unfortunately (or perhaps I would have heard of your
company before this).

cjs
-- 
Curt Sampson  <cjs@cynic.net>   +81 90 7737 2974   http://www.netbsd.org
    Don't you know, in this new Dark Age, we're all light.  --XTC


Wed, 10 Jul 2002 11:20:41 +0900 (JST)
Curt Sampson <cjs@cynic.net>
Re: I am being interviewed by OReilly
On Wed, 10 Jul 2002, Curt Sampson wrote:

> On Tue, 9 Jul 2002, Marc G. Fournier wrote:
>
> > PostgreSQL (aka PgSQL aka Postgres aka Pg) ... ppl use all the various
> > forms ...
>
> Having to say that is a very, very good reason to just change the name
> back to "postgres" *everywhere*, and stick with that.

It will *not* happen, so you may as well just drop that part of the
thread.

> > Note that the lists themselves act as their own marketing ...
> > pgsql-*@postgresql.org ... and all the search engines have
> > postgresql.org in them....
>
> Is there a difficulty in using postgres.org instead?

Is there a difficulty in accepting that it will not change?

> > , and, I'm sorry, but someones lame argument about 'whether to search
> > for postgres or postgresql' ... like, come on ... if you have any
> > doubt, just search for postgres, it *is* a sub-string of the formal
> > name
>
> I did search. A search for "postgres" turns up only one quarter of the
> hits, does not turn up the advertisement for postgresql documentation,
> and the second link is to a page called "University POSTGRES 4.2".

Guess you should learn to type 'postgresql' then, eh?

> Now, having done a web search on "pgsql", I can now see your difficulty
> with the name change; you are the president of a company called
> "PostgreSQL Inc." Why didn't you just say this from the beginnning?

Because it was irrelevant?  And still is ...


Wed, 10 Jul 2002 01:20:58 -0300 (ADT)
"Marc G. Fournier" <scrappy@hub.org>
Re: I am being interviewed by OReilly
On Wed, 10 Jul 2002, Marc G. Fournier wrote:

> It will *not* happen, so you may as well just drop that part of the
> thread.

And so who died and appointed you king?

Sorry, but PostgreSQL is not your product, much as you might like to
think so. And I find it rather offensive that you should pretend it is.

cjs
-- 
Curt Sampson  <cjs@cynic.net>   +81 90 7737 2974   http://www.netbsd.org
    Don't you know, in this new Dark Age, we're all light.  --XTC


Wed, 10 Jul 2002 13:37:53 +0900 (JST)
Curt Sampson <cjs@cynic.net>
Re: I am being interviewed by OReilly
On Wednesday 10 July 2002 12:37 am, Curt Sampson wrote:
> On Wed, 10 Jul 2002, Marc G. Fournier wrote:
> > It will *not* happen, so you may as well just drop that part of the
> > thread.

> And so who died and appointed you king?

> Sorry, but PostgreSQL is not your product, much as you might like to
> think so. And I find it rather offensive that you should pretend it is.

Curt, you do realize that Marc Fournier helped start this whole thing (taking 
over Postgres95 from its two developers and founding PostgreSQL), is a 
founding member of the PostgreSQL steering committee (core), 
administers/runs/pays for the postgresql.org website, coordinates and 
performs the actual work of the release, and many other things that are 
necessary.

His contributions to the project entitle him to have far more say than you 
have.

If you doubt that fact, you need to read the archives for awhile to get a 
sense of how this project is organized.  If the steering committee (the core 
six) decide against something, then that something _does_not_happen_.  End of 
story.  This is not a democracy.  It is an oligarchy.  Marc is one of the six 
oligarchs, so _Deal_with_it_.  Bruce, another of the core six, has to an 
extent agreed with some of the difficulty of the current name.  But how have 
the rest weighed in?  Up until the last portions of this thread I might have 
agreed with you to an extent.  But after I weighed the difficulty of actually 
pulling off a name change, I am dead set against it.  It's too much effort 
for too little gain.

Now, if you want to pay for the bandwidth of a 'postgres.org', want to set up 
a full CVS repository, want to administer a popular server, and want to 
evangelize enough developers to gather a critical mass to fork a 'postgres' 
project, then go ahead.

The name is fine as it is.  This is because:
1.)	It is well known by that name;
2.)	Books are already written using that name (there are no books about 
'Postgres';
3.)	It is descriptive;
4.)	It has history;
5.)	"If it ain't broke, don't fix it" -- and the name ain't broke.

The whole project should not have to deal with all the ramifications of a name 
change just for a few people's convenience, laziness, and stubborness.
-- 
Lamar Owen
WGCR Internet Radio
1 Peter 4:11

Wed, 10 Jul 2002 09:57:18 -0400
Lamar Owen <lamar.owen@wgcr.org>
Re: I am being interviewed by OReilly
> It will *not* happen, so you may as well just drop that part of the
> thread.

Hmm. But anyway, why not register the domain postgres.org in addition to 
postgresql.org, no matter if the name will change or not.

Let it point to the same server, forward to postgresql.org or whatever. It 
might make a few new people look the right place :-)

-- 
Kaare Rasmussen            --Linux, spil,--        Tlf:        3816 2582
Kaki Data                tshirts, merchandize      Fax:        3816 2501
Howitzvej 75               ï¿½ben 12.00-18.00        Email: kar@webline.dk
2000 Frederiksberg        Lï¿½rdag 11.00-17.00       Web:      www.suse.dk

Wed, 10 Jul 2002 20:34:12 +0200
Kaare Rasmussen <kar@kakidata.dk>
Re: I am being interviewed by OReilly
On Wed, 10 Jul 2002, Kaare Rasmussen wrote:

> > It will *not* happen, so you may as well just drop that part of the
> > thread.
>
> Hmm. But anyway, why not register the domain postgres.org in addition to
> postgresql.org, no matter if the name will change or not.

Already is ... and it *was* supposed to be pointing at postgresql.org ...
getting that fixed now :(



Wed, 10 Jul 2002 15:41:02 -0300 (ADT)
"Marc G. Fournier" <scrappy@hub.org>
Re: I am being interviewed by OReilly
"Marc G. Fournier" <scrappy@hub.org> writes:
>> Hmm. But anyway, why not register the domain postgres.org in addition to
>> postgresql.org, no matter if the name will change or not.

> Already is ... and it *was* supposed to be pointing at postgresql.org ...
> getting that fixed now :(

Since we also have postgres.com, don't forget to make that point to the
right place too.

GB did get a couple of things done anyway ;-)

			regards, tom lane

Wed, 10 Jul 2002 18:51:38 -0400
Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
Re: I am being interviewed by OReilly 
Lamar Owen wrote:
> If you doubt that fact, you need to read the archives for awhile to get a 
> sense of how this project is organized.  If the steering committee (the core 
> six) decide against something, then that something _does_not_happen_.  End of 
> story.  This is not a democracy.  It is an oligarchy.  Marc is one of the six 
> oligarchs, so _Deal_with_it_.  Bruce, another of the core six, has to an 
> extent agreed with some of the difficulty of the current name.  But how have 
> the rest weighed in?  Up until the last portions of this thread I might have 
> agreed with you to an extent.  But after I weighed the difficulty of actually 
> pulling off a name change, I am dead set against it.  It's too much effort 
> for too little gain.

I don't think you can just "shut down" a discussion about a name change.
Some good things are coming out of is, such as adding "also called
'postgres'" to some of our documentation, and properly mapping
postgres.org/com to postgresql.org.

I think there is room for an "also called postgres" push among our users
and for marketing.  Oracle is changing the name of their server all the
time to position it for marketing so having a secondary name doesn't
hurt.  Our _official_ name is PostgreSQL.

(I personally voted for 'tigres' at the time we chose PostgreSQL.)

-- 
  Bruce Momjian                        |  http://candle.pha.pa.us
  pgman@candle.pha.pa.us               |  (610) 853-3000
  +  If your life is a hard drive,     |  830 Blythe Avenue
  +  Christ can be your backup.        |  Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026

Wed, 10 Jul 2002 21:26:13 -0400 (EDT)
Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>
Re: I am being interviewed by OReilly
On Wed, 10 Jul 2002, Lamar Owen wrote:

> Curt, you do realize that Marc Fournier....

Sure. You do realize that I've been using postgres on and off since
before Postgres95 existed, right?

Regardless, if people think it's not worthwhile to change the name, I
have no problem with that. It's the, "Just shut up because I don't want
to listen to you attitude" that I have a problem with. Not to mention
the, "It's wrong, but I don't have to give any reasons why, because I'm
just right and you're not" attitude.

You know, I just bought this up as an idea to be batted around. And I,
for one, am still not sure whether changing the name is a good idea or
not. But I find really disappointing the number of people here who a)
object to an idea for no good reason that they can explain, beyond "I
don't like it," and b) are flaming those who are discussing this idea
rather than dismissing it.

> This is not a democracy.  It is an oligarchy.  Marc is one of the six
> oligarchs, so _Deal_with_it_.

So, basically, "if you don't like the product, get lost."

If this is really the case, we can certainly drop any discussion
of the name, because we have much, much bigger marketing problems.

> 1.)	It is well known by that name;

Not to mention by one or two other names.

> 4.)	It has history;

Though less history than other names.

> 5.)	"If it ain't broke, don't fix it" -- and the name ain't broke.

Well, apparently some people don't agree with you. You can listen to them
or you can tell them to get lost. Your choice.

cjs
-- 
Curt Sampson  <cjs@cynic.net>   +81 90 7737 2974   http://www.netbsd.org
    Don't you know, in this new Dark Age, we're all light.  --XTC


Thu, 11 Jul 2002 11:19:53 +0900 (JST)
Curt Sampson <cjs@cynic.net>
Re: I am being interviewed by OReilly
On Thu, 11 Jul 2002, Curt Sampson wrote:

> On Wed, 10 Jul 2002, Lamar Owen wrote:
>
> > Curt, you do realize that Marc Fournier....
>
> Sure. You do realize that I've been using postgres on and off since
> before Postgres95 existed, right?

Well you certainly don't act like it - and before you go snapping at me
for saying that, go back and look at your previous posts and ask yourself
why you would ask some of the questions or make some of the statements you
made if you really had been around that long.

Vince.
-- 
==========================================================================
Vince Vielhaber -- KA8CSH    email: vev@michvhf.com    http://www.pop4.net
         56K Nationwide Dialup from $16.00/mo at Pop4 Networking
        Online Campground Directory    http://www.camping-usa.com
       Online Giftshop Superstore    http://www.cloudninegifts.com
==========================================================================




Wed, 10 Jul 2002 22:31:46 -0400 (EDT)
Vince Vielhaber <vev@michvhf.com>
Re: I am being interviewed by OReilly
pgman@candle.pha.pa.us (Bruce Momjian) wrote:
> Lamar Owen wrote:
>> If you doubt that fact, you need to read the archives for awhile to
>> get a sense of how this project is organized.  If the steering
>> committee (the core six) decide against something, then that
>> something _does_not_happen_.  End of story.  This is not a
>> democracy.  It is an oligarchy.  Marc is one of the six oligarchs,
>> so _Deal_with_it_.  Bruce, another of the core six, has to an
>> extent agreed with some of the difficulty of the current name.  But
>> how have the rest weighed in?  Up until the last portions of this
>> thread I might have agreed with you to an extent.  But after I
>> weighed the difficulty of actually pulling off a name change, I am
>> dead set against it.  It's too much effort for too little gain.
>
> I don't think you can just "shut down" a discussion about a name
> change.  Some good things are coming out of is, such as adding "also
> called 'postgres'" to some of our documentation, and properly
> mapping postgres.org/com to postgresql.org.
>
> I think there is room for an "also called postgres" push among our
> users and for marketing.  Oracle is changing the name of their
> server all the time to position it for marketing so having a
> secondary name doesn't hurt.  Our _official_ name is PostgreSQL.
>
> (I personally voted for 'tigres' at the time we chose PostgreSQL.)

Hear, hear!

This is a _wonderful_ thing.

Note that Netscape Navigator has been spelled many ways over the
years, "but is always pronounced `Mozilla.'"

While 'tigres' sounds quite nice, and strikes me as an attractive
option were things open to a _completely_ new name, it hasn't the
merit "postgres" has of:
  a) Being a historical name, and
  b) Being highly similar to the current name.

There's NOTHING wrong with having a "legal name" as well as an
"operating as" name; companies do that _all the time_.

And if there are 20 places that say "It's officially spelled
PostgreSQL, but you can _pronounce_ that 'p\O\st-"gres', and here's
the MP3 of Bruce saying it," that can cope with the situation nicely.

I have no problem with the "PostgreSQL" _spelling_, but how it sounds
_is_ important, and I don't think it's reasonable to expect to do the
"Cliff Richard" thing where the famous British pop star coined a name
specifically so that he could regularly remind interviewers "No, no,
not `Cliff Richards,' it's `Cliff Richard.'  No 's' on the end!"

Consider the Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy series.  The first three
books are _tremendously_ more popular than the later sequels, and I
believe that is the result of them having been first 'honed' by being
presented as radio plays.  They actually _sound_ better than they
"read."  In contrast, later volumes like _So Long and Thanks for All
the Fish_ never were on radio, and read _very_ differently,
unfortunately not as nicely.
-- 
(reverse (concatenate 'string "moc.enworbbc@" "enworbbc"))
http://cbbrowne.com/info/nonrdbms.html
"One of my most often  repeated quips was the  one I made when  former
Presidents Carter, Ford and Nixon stood by each other at a White House
event. 'There they are,' I said. 'See  no evil, hear  no evil, and ...
evil.'" -- Bob Dole, 1983

Wed, 10 Jul 2002 22:58:39 -0400
Christopher Browne <cbbrowne@cbbrowne.com>
Re: I am being interviewed by OReilly
On Wed, 10 Jul 2002, Christopher Browne wrote:

> And if there are 20 places that say "It's officially spelled
> PostgreSQL, but you can _pronounce_ that 'p\O\st-"gres', and here's
> the MP3 of Bruce saying it," that can cope with the situation nicely.

For the record, the voice on the MP3 isn't Bruce.  It's the voice of a
professional broadcaster.

Vince.
-- 
==========================================================================
Vince Vielhaber -- KA8CSH    email: vev@michvhf.com    http://www.pop4.net
         56K Nationwide Dialup from $16.00/mo at Pop4 Networking
        Online Campground Directory    http://www.camping-usa.com
       Online Giftshop Superstore    http://www.cloudninegifts.com
==========================================================================




Thu, 11 Jul 2002 05:31:10 -0400 (EDT)
Vince Vielhaber <vev@michvhf.com>
Re: I am being interviewed by OReilly
On Sat, 10 Aug 2002, Jeff MacDonald wrote:

> How long did it take you to teach him to say PostgreSQL ? :)

Lessee, the conversation went something like this:

Me: I need a wav file of you saying "PostgreSQL".

Him: "PostgreSQL"?

Me: Yeah.

Him: Ok, I'll get it to you later today.

Then after I made it available someone else did the MP3 conversion
and I put that there as well.   He caught on pretty quick! :)



>
> Jeff.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org
> [mailto:pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org]On Behalf Of Vince Vielhaber
> Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2002 6:31 AM
> To: Christopher Browne
> Cc: pgsql-hackers@postgreSQL.org
> Subject: Re: [HACKERS] I am being interviewed by OReilly
>
>
> On Wed, 10 Jul 2002, Christopher Browne wrote:
>
> > And if there are 20 places that say "It's officially spelled
> > PostgreSQL, but you can _pronounce_ that 'p\O\st-"gres', and here's
> > the MP3 of Bruce saying it," that can cope with the situation nicely.
>
> For the record, the voice on the MP3 isn't Bruce.  It's the voice of a
> professional broadcaster.
>
> Vince.
>


Vince.
-- 
==========================================================================
Vince Vielhaber -- KA8CSH    email: vev@michvhf.com    http://www.pop4.net
         56K Nationwide Dialup from $16.00/mo at Pop4 Networking
        Online Campground Directory    http://www.camping-usa.com
       Online Giftshop Superstore    http://www.cloudninegifts.com
==========================================================================




Thu, 11 Jul 2002 08:27:19 -0400 (EDT)
Vince Vielhaber <vev@michvhf.com>
Re: I am being interviewed by OReilly
On Thu, 11 Jul 2002, Vince Vielhaber wrote:

> On Sat, 10 Aug 2002, Jeff MacDonald wrote:
>
> > How long did it take you to teach him to say PostgreSQL ? :)
>
> Lessee, the conversation went something like this:
>
> Me: I need a wav file of you saying "PostgreSQL".
>
> Him: "PostgreSQL"?
>
> Me: Yeah.
>
> Him: Ok, I'll get it to you later today.
>
> Then after I made it available someone else did the MP3 conversion
> and I put that there as well.   He caught on pretty quick! :)

My experiences tend to be about the same ... worst case scenario, I have
to show them where the syllables break down ... after that, they are
generally fine ...

 >
>
>
> >
> > Jeff.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org
> > [mailto:pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org]On Behalf Of Vince Vielhaber
> > Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2002 6:31 AM
> > To: Christopher Browne
> > Cc: pgsql-hackers@postgreSQL.org
> > Subject: Re: [HACKERS] I am being interviewed by OReilly
> >
> >
> > On Wed, 10 Jul 2002, Christopher Browne wrote:
> >
> > > And if there are 20 places that say "It's officially spelled
> > > PostgreSQL, but you can _pronounce_ that 'p\O\st-"gres', and here's
> > > the MP3 of Bruce saying it," that can cope with the situation nicely.
> >
> > For the record, the voice on the MP3 isn't Bruce.  It's the voice of a
> > professional broadcaster.
> >
> > Vince.
> >
>
>
> Vince.
> --
> ==========================================================================
> Vince Vielhaber -- KA8CSH    email: vev@michvhf.com    http://www.pop4.net
>          56K Nationwide Dialup from $16.00/mo at Pop4 Networking
>         Online Campground Directory    http://www.camping-usa.com
>        Online Giftshop Superstore    http://www.cloudninegifts.com
> ==========================================================================
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
> TIP 6: Have you searched our list archives?
>
> http://archives.postgresql.org
>


Thu, 11 Jul 2002 10:24:21 -0300 (ADT)
"Marc G. Fournier" <scrappy@hub.org>
Re: I am being interviewed by OReilly
Curt Sampson wrote:
> 
> On Wed, 10 Jul 2002, Lamar Owen wrote:
> 
> > Curt, you do realize that Marc Fournier....
> 
> Sure. You do realize that I've been using postgres on and off since
> before Postgres95 existed, right?

Have been there since v4.2 (last official Berkeley release, PostQUEL
version) and survived the dark era (Postgres95).

That by itself is no argument, nor does it give someones word more
weight.

PostgreSQL is the name of this software for many years, books are
printed using that name, press articles refer to it, marketing is based
on it. If we like it or not, it is IMHO not an option to change it just
to sound better or because people with spelling difficulties don't get
it right. 

Look at my own name. Jan Wieck (correctly pronounced like Yann Veek).
Some people here in the US think I'm a girl, most pronounce my first
name Dshaen or worse many fail on my last name somewhere around
OUUEEEE... cough, cough. Do you think I consider changing something? No
way, not for people who speak one or less languages only.

PostgreSQL is PostgreSQL, and that's it.


Jan

-- 

#======================================================================#
# It's easier to get forgiveness for being wrong than for being right. #
# Let's break this rule - forgive me.                                  #
#================================================== JanWieck@Yahoo.com #

Thu, 11 Jul 2002 11:17:44 -0400
Jan Wieck <JanWieck@Yahoo.com>
Re: I am being interviewed by OReilly
> (I personally voted for 'tigres' at the time we chose PostgreSQL.)

??

What about "digress" ??

:-)

-- 
Kaare Rasmussen            --Linux, spil,--        Tlf:        3816 2582
Kaki Data                tshirts, merchandize      Fax:        3816 2501
Howitzvej 75               ï¿½ben 12.00-18.00        Email: kar@webline.dk
2000 Frederiksberg        Lï¿½rdag 11.00-17.00       Web:      www.suse.dk

Thu, 11 Jul 2002 17:51:00 +0200
Kaare Rasmussen <kar@kakidata.dk>
Re: I am being interviewed by OReilly
On Thu, 11 Jul 2002, Jan Wieck wrote:

> Look at my own name. Jan Wieck (correctly pronounced like Yann Veek).

Is that how its pronounced?? :)  I've known you for how long now and never
had a clue how to pronounce your last name ... first is/was easy, last I
never even tried ...




Thu, 11 Jul 2002 16:07:40 -0300 (ADT)
"Marc G. Fournier" <scrappy@hub.org>
Jan's Name (Was: Re: I am being interviewed by OReilly)
Marc G. Fournier wrote:
> On Thu, 11 Jul 2002, Jan Wieck wrote:
> 
> > Look at my own name. Jan Wieck (correctly pronounced like Yann Veek).
> 
> Is that how its pronounced?? :)  I've known you for how long now and never
> had a clue how to pronounce your last name ... first is/was easy, last I
> never even tried ...

And we did think Jan was a girl for many months until somehow he
mentioned something that gave us a clue he wasn't.

-- 
  Bruce Momjian                        |  http://candle.pha.pa.us
  pgman@candle.pha.pa.us               |  (610) 853-3000
  +  If your life is a hard drive,     |  830 Blythe Avenue
  +  Christ can be your backup.        |  Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026

Thu, 11 Jul 2002 15:21:32 -0400 (EDT)
Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>
Re: Jan's Name (Was: Re: I am being interviewed by OReilly)
On Thu, 11 Jul 2002, Bruce Momjian wrote:

> And we did think Jan was a girl for many months until somehow he
> mentioned something that gave us a clue he wasn't.

Through the years I've had many friends that I've never seen and several
that I had no idea as to their gender.  Isn't e-mail great.  No
preconceived ideas when we start communicating.  (Heck I get to be called
a @#$%^& based on merit.  :-)  There has been a Jan, Lynn, Sandy and a
couple others I can't remember but the biggest shock was the phone call I
got from some one I'd been communicating with for several years and she
said "Hi Rod, this is Charlie".  I hadn't had a clue Charlie was a woman.

   As the cartoon says "On the internet no one knows you're a dog."


Rod
-- 
  "Open Source Software - Sometimes you get more than you paid for..."


Thu, 11 Jul 2002 14:48:22 -0700 (PDT)
"Roderick A. Anderson" <raanders@acm.org>
Re: Jan's Name (Was: Re: I am being interviewed by OReilly)
Roderick A. Anderson wrote:
> On Thu, 11 Jul 2002, Bruce Momjian wrote:
> 
> > And we did think Jan was a girl for many months until somehow he
> > mentioned something that gave us a clue he wasn't.
> 
> Through the years I've had many friends that I've never seen and several
> that I had no idea as to their gender.  Isn't e-mail great.  No
> preconceived ideas when we start communicating.  (Heck I get to be called

I do speak to women differently so it was weird not knowing about Jan. 
If you have seen the SNL skit about Pat, well, its like that.

-- 
  Bruce Momjian                        |  http://candle.pha.pa.us
  pgman@candle.pha.pa.us               |  (610) 853-3000
  +  If your life is a hard drive,     |  830 Blythe Avenue
  +  Christ can be your backup.        |  Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026

Thu, 11 Jul 2002 17:51:20 -0400 (EDT)
Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>
Re: Jan's Name (Was: Re: I am being interviewed by OReilly)
Okay, going *way* off subject.... why on earth do you speak to women
differently?

On Thu, 11 Jul 2002, Bruce Momjian wrote:

> Roderick A. Anderson wrote:
> > On Thu, 11 Jul 2002, Bruce Momjian wrote:
> >
> > > And we did think Jan was a girl for many months until somehow he
> > > mentioned something that gave us a clue he wasn't.
> >
> > Through the years I've had many friends that I've never seen and several
> > that I had no idea as to their gender.  Isn't e-mail great.  No
> > preconceived ideas when we start communicating.  (Heck I get to be called
>
> I do speak to women differently so it was weird not knowing about Jan.
> If you have seen the SNL skit about Pat, well, its like that.
>
> --
>   Bruce Momjian                        |  http://candle.pha.pa.us
>   pgman@candle.pha.pa.us               |  (610) 853-3000
>   +  If your life is a hard drive,     |  830 Blythe Avenue
>   +  Christ can be your backup.        |  Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026
>
> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
> TIP 4: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
>


Thu, 11 Jul 2002 15:10:29 -0700 (PDT)
Ben <bench@silentmedia.com>
Re: Jan's Name (Was: Re: I am being interviewed by OReilly)
Ben wrote:
> Okay, going *way* off subject.... why on earth do you speak to women
> differently?

You don't make sarcastic comments to women, for one thing.  I speak less
harshly, I guess.  I am married, so dating isn't the issue.

I used to think "treat them the same" but in reality I think most women
prefer that you didn't.

-- 
  Bruce Momjian                        |  http://candle.pha.pa.us
  pgman@candle.pha.pa.us               |  (610) 853-3000
  +  If your life is a hard drive,     |  830 Blythe Avenue
  +  Christ can be your backup.        |  Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026

Thu, 11 Jul 2002 18:13:47 -0400 (EDT)
Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>
Re: Jan's Name (Was: Re: I am being interviewed by OReilly)
Bruce Momjian wrote:
> Marc G. Fournier wrote:
> 
>>On Thu, 11 Jul 2002, Jan Wieck wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Look at my own name. Jan Wieck (correctly pronounced like Yann Veek).
>>
>>Is that how its pronounced?? :)  I've known you for how long now and never
>>had a clue how to pronounce your last name ... first is/was easy, last I
>>never even tried ...
> 
> 
> And we did think Jan was a girl for many months until somehow he
> mentioned something that gave us a clue he wasn't.
> 

There are plenty of hard to spell/pronounce names on the lists - and I 
don't want to be the one to start *that* thread - but I have to ask:

Mom-jee-arn ?
Mom-jy-ann ?
Mom-jeen ?
Mom-zhon ?

Cheers, Kurt (Male).


Fri, 12 Jul 2002 10:57:16 +1200
Kurt at iadvance <kurtw@iadvance.co.nz>
Re: Jan's Name (Was: Re: I am being interviewed by OReilly)
>>>>Look at my own name. Jan Wieck (correctly pronounced like Yann Veek).

Vaguely remembered, then found on the Web...

Nicklaus Wirth, the designer of PASCAL, gave a talk once at which he
was asked "How do you pronounce your name?". He replied, "You can call
me by name, pronouncing it 'Virt', or call be by value, 'Worth'." 

-- 
John W Hall <wweexxsseessssaa@telusplanet.net>
Calgary, Alberta, Canada.
"Helping People Prosper in the Information Age"

Thu, 11 Jul 2002 23:16:05 GMT
John Hall <wweexxsseessssaa@telusplanet.net>
Re: Jan's Name (Was: Re: I am being interviewed by OReilly)
Bruce Momjian wrote:
> 
> Ben wrote:
> > Okay, going *way* off subject.... why on earth do you speak to women
> > differently?
> 
> You don't make sarcastic comments to women, for one thing.  I speak less
> harshly, I guess.  I am married, so dating isn't the issue.
> 
> I used to think "treat them the same" but in reality I think most women
> prefer that you didn't.

Amen.

Mike Mascari
mascarm@mascari.com

Thu, 11 Jul 2002 20:36:39 -0400
Mike Mascari <mascarm@mascari.com>
Re: Jan's Name (Was: Re: I am being interviewed by OReilly)
On Wednesday 10 July 2002 09:26 pm, Bruce Momjian wrote:
> Lamar Owen wrote:
> > If you doubt that fact, you need to read the archives for awhile to get a
> > sense of how this project is organized.  If the steering committee (the
> > core six) decide against something, then that something

> I don't think you can just "shut down" a discussion about a name change.

Well, you're right.  *I* can't shut anything down (except my server...).  But 
my reply was targeted to the 'who died and made you king' ad hominem.

> I think there is room for an "also called postgres" push among our users
> and for marketing.  Oracle is changing the name of their server all the
> time to position it for marketing so having a secondary name doesn't
> hurt.  Our _official_ name is PostgreSQL.

Is that like the Artist Formerly Known as Prince?  Now abbreviated to 
'Artist'?  Why beat around the bush about our name?  This is confusion.

> (I personally voted for 'tigres' at the time we chose PostgreSQL.)

As in the river?  Does that mean we consider ourselves to be the new seat of 
power in the world?  Hey, maybe I need to change my name to Tiglathpileser or 
something.  Hey, we could then have Sargon as our engine, Pul as our system 
of scripting, Shalmaneser as the trademark for 'readers don't have to wait 
for writers', Sennacherib as the patented system for stuffing data that goes 
beyond the size of a tuple.....

As long as a project from Iraq called 'Babylon' lead by a royal Nebuchadnezzar 
doesn't come around....

Time to retreat to Nineveh....
-- 
Lamar Owen
WGCR Internet Radio
1 Peter 4:11

Thu, 11 Jul 2002 20:48:27 -0400
Lamar Owen <lamar.owen@wgcr.org>
Re: I am being interviewed by OReilly
On Wednesday 10 July 2002 10:19 pm, Curt Sampson wrote:
> You know, I just bought this up as an idea to be batted around. And I,
> for one, am still not sure whether changing the name is a good idea or
> not.

A name change will be traumatic for a number of reasons.  

First, every distributor of the progam will have to change its name.  Apache 
is doing this very thing now, and it has got things in a state of confusion 
-- the apache webserver is now packaged in a a tarball called 'httpd' -- 
which, IMNSHO, is arrogant.

Next, name changes must be effectively communicated to people.  If we are 
having a hard time communicating our current name, how much harder of a time 
will we have with communicating the fact that 'we've changed our name because 
we've given up on communicating our name to people'?

Apply Occam's Razor, please. Non sunt multiplicanda entia praeter 
necessitatem.

It is up to the ones who want to change the name to come up with a compelling 
reason to change it -- it's not the responsibility of those who support the 
current name to defend the current name in order for it to be kept.

My opinion is simply that the current name is fine.  The question becomes 'is 
it worth the work to change the name for the minority's convenience?'  I 
believe the logical answer is 'No.  While there are seemingly good reasons 
for this move, none compel this drastic of an action.'
-- 
Lamar Owen
WGCR Internet Radio
1 Peter 4:11

Thu, 11 Jul 2002 21:00:06 -0400
Lamar Owen <lamar.owen@wgcr.org>
Re: I am being interviewed by OReilly
Kurt at iadvance wrote:
> Bruce Momjian wrote:
> > Marc G. Fournier wrote:
> > 
> >>On Thu, 11 Jul 2002, Jan Wieck wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>Look at my own name. Jan Wieck (correctly pronounced like Yann Veek).
> >>
> >>Is that how its pronounced?? :)  I've known you for how long now and never
> >>had a clue how to pronounce your last name ... first is/was easy, last I
> >>never even tried ...
> > 
> > 
> > And we did think Jan was a girl for many months until somehow he
> > mentioned something that gave us a clue he wasn't.
> > 
> 
> There are plenty of hard to spell/pronounce names on the lists - and I 
> don't want to be the one to start *that* thread - but I have to ask:
> 
> Mom-jee-arn ?
> Mom-jy-ann ?
> Mom-jeen ?
> Mom-zhon ?

Now, that is a good question.  It is MOM-jin.  Actually, though the
Armenian way to say it is MOOM-ji-an, but I don't say it that way.

Maybe I need an MP3 file for that.  Vince, can you hook me up?  ;-)

-- 
  Bruce Momjian                        |  http://candle.pha.pa.us
  pgman@candle.pha.pa.us               |  (610) 853-3000
  +  If your life is a hard drive,     |  830 Blythe Avenue
  +  Christ can be your backup.        |  Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026

Thu, 11 Jul 2002 22:52:57 -0400 (EDT)
Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>
Re: Jan's Name (Was: Re: I am being interviewed by OReilly)
Lamar Owen dijo: 

> On Wednesday 10 July 2002 09:26 pm, Bruce Momjian wrote:

> > (I personally voted for 'tigres' at the time we chose PostgreSQL.)
> 
> As in the river?

I don't think so.  The river is actually called "Tigris" (that's the
spanish version, and the version that generates more results in Google,
althought I admit that the english transliteration may be different).

Tigres is the spanish plural for "tiger", and of course it keeps the
play on "-gres" while suggesting some kind of power (and speed?).  But I
think Bruce should be actually better informed than me as to what was
the origin of the word suggestion in the first place.

-- 
Alvaro Herrera (<alvherre[a]atentus.com>)
www.google.com: interfaz de linea de comando para la web.


Thu, 11 Jul 2002 23:03:50 -0400 (CLT)
Alvaro Herrera <alvherre@atentus.com>
Re: I am being interviewed by OReilly
Kurt at iadvance wrote:
> Bruce Momjian wrote:
> > Marc G. Fournier wrote:
> > 
> >>On Thu, 11 Jul 2002, Jan Wieck wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>Look at my own name. Jan Wieck (correctly pronounced like Yann Veek).
> >>
> >>Is that how its pronounced?? :)  I've known you for how long now and never
> >>had a clue how to pronounce your last name ... first is/was easy, last I
> >>never even tried ...
> > 
> > 
> > And we did think Jan was a girl for many months until somehow he
> > mentioned something that gave us a clue he wasn't.
> > 
> 
> There are plenty of hard to spell/pronounce names on the lists - and I 
> don't want to be the one to start *that* thread - but I have to ask:
> 
> Mom-jee-arn ?
> Mom-jy-ann ?
> Mom-jeen ?
> Mom-zhon ?

Sorry for the off-topic, but my wife just corrected the proper Armenian
pronuciation of my name.  It should be MOHM-juh-yan.

I rarely correct anyone who pronounces my name.  I give them credit for
just trying.

-- 
  Bruce Momjian                        |  http://candle.pha.pa.us
  pgman@candle.pha.pa.us               |  (610) 853-3000
  +  If your life is a hard drive,     |  830 Blythe Avenue
  +  Christ can be your backup.        |  Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026

Thu, 11 Jul 2002 23:04:54 -0400 (EDT)
Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>
Re: Jan's Name (Was: Re: I am being interviewed by OReilly)
On Thu, 11 Jul 2002, Bruce Momjian wrote:

> Kurt at iadvance wrote:
> > Bruce Momjian wrote:
> > > Marc G. Fournier wrote:
> > >
> > >>On Thu, 11 Jul 2002, Jan Wieck wrote:
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>>Look at my own name. Jan Wieck (correctly pronounced like Yann Veek).
> > >>
> > >>Is that how its pronounced?? :)  I've known you for how long now and never
> > >>had a clue how to pronounce your last name ... first is/was easy, last I
> > >>never even tried ...
> > >
> > >
> > > And we did think Jan was a girl for many months until somehow he
> > > mentioned something that gave us a clue he wasn't.
> > >
> >
> > There are plenty of hard to spell/pronounce names on the lists - and I
> > don't want to be the one to start *that* thread - but I have to ask:
> >
> > Mom-jee-arn ?
> > Mom-jy-ann ?
> > Mom-jeen ?
> > Mom-zhon ?
>
> Now, that is a good question.  It is MOM-jin.  Actually, though the
> Armenian way to say it is MOOM-ji-an, but I don't say it that way.
>
> Maybe I need an MP3 file for that.  Vince, can you hook me up?  ;-)

No problem, the broadcaster in question is my biz partner.  I'll get
with him next week.

Vince.
-- 
==========================================================================
Vince Vielhaber -- KA8CSH    email: vev@michvhf.com    http://www.pop4.net
         56K Nationwide Dialup from $16.00/mo at Pop4 Networking
        Online Campground Directory    http://www.camping-usa.com
       Online Giftshop Superstore    http://www.cloudninegifts.com
==========================================================================




Thu, 11 Jul 2002 23:09:25 -0400 (EDT)
Vince Vielhaber <vev@michvhf.com>
Re: Jan's Name (Was: Re: I am being interviewed by OReilly)
Alvaro Herrera wrote:
> Lamar Owen dijo: 
> 
> > On Wednesday 10 July 2002 09:26 pm, Bruce Momjian wrote:
> 
> > > (I personally voted for 'tigres' at the time we chose PostgreSQL.)
> > 
> > As in the river?
> 
> I don't think so.  The river is actually called "Tigris" (that's the
> spanish version, and the version that generates more results in Google,
> althought I admit that the english transliteration may be different).
> 
> Tigres is the spanish plural for "tiger", and of course it keeps the
> play on "-gres" while suggesting some kind of power (and speed?).  But I
> think Bruce should be actually better informed than me as to what was
> the origin of the word suggestion in the first place.

Tigres (female tiger) was suggested because it is the only common *gres
word we could think of.

-- 
  Bruce Momjian                        |  http://candle.pha.pa.us
  pgman@candle.pha.pa.us               |  (610) 853-3000
  +  If your life is a hard drive,     |  830 Blythe Avenue
  +  Christ can be your backup.        |  Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026

Thu, 11 Jul 2002 23:22:01 -0400 (EDT)
Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>
Re: I am being interviewed by OReilly
Lamar Owen wrote:
> On Wednesday 10 July 2002 09:26 pm, Bruce Momjian wrote:
> > Lamar Owen wrote:
> > > If you doubt that fact, you need to read the archives for awhile to get a
> > > sense of how this project is organized.  If the steering committee (the
> > > core six) decide against something, then that something
> 
> > I don't think you can just "shut down" a discussion about a name change.
> 
> Well, you're right.  *I* can't shut anything down (except my server...).  But 
> my reply was targeted to the 'who died and made you king' ad hominem.

And my reply was to those who wanted to shut down the discussion. 
Lamar, you weren't one of them.

The discussion addressed a serious issue, specifically that though
PostgreSQL looks great on paper, with the Postgre* and the SQL, it is
hard to pronounce.

That was the issue, and people are free to make suggestions on how to
address it.  I think the only discussions we really shut down are those
that insult people or are blatantly disrespectful.  I think anything
else is open for discussion.

> > I think there is room for an "also called postgres" push among our users
> > and for marketing.  Oracle is changing the name of their server all the
> > time to position it for marketing so having a secondary name doesn't
> > hurt.  Our _official_ name is PostgreSQL.
> 
> Is that like the Artist Formerly Known as Prince?  Now abbreviated to 
> 'Artist'?  Why beat around the bush about our name?  This is confusion.

Sure, just call us Database.  Maybe Red Hat Database is a trend.  ;-)

Actually, Prince did that because his record company had rights to his
name for publishing for X years.  The contract finally ran out and I
think he is back to Prince.


-- 
  Bruce Momjian                        |  http://candle.pha.pa.us
  pgman@candle.pha.pa.us               |  (610) 853-3000
  +  If your life is a hard drive,     |  830 Blythe Avenue
  +  Christ can be your backup.        |  Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026

Thu, 11 Jul 2002 23:29:00 -0400 (EDT)
Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>
Re: I am being interviewed by OReilly
On Thursday 11 July 2002 11:29 pm, Bruce Momjian wrote:
> Lamar Owen wrote:
> > Well, you're right.  *I* can't shut anything down (except my server...). 
> > But my reply was targeted to the 'who died and made you king' ad hominem.

> And my reply was to those who wanted to shut down the discussion.
> Lamar, you weren't one of them.

As I was in the cc list, it was my message replied to, and my Asperger's 
kicked in again, I misunderstood.

> The discussion addressed a serious issue, specifically that though
> PostgreSQL looks great on paper, with the Postgre* and the SQL, it is
> hard to pronounce.

You know, I think I brought the issue up once myself.  But I further realized 
that it really isn't hard to pronounce.

> Sure, just call us Database.  Maybe Red Hat Database is a trend.  ;-)

We might get confused with dBASE.  Hmmm.  pBASE?  (nah.)
-- 
Lamar Owen
WGCR Internet Radio
1 Peter 4:11

Thu, 11 Jul 2002 23:37:56 -0400
Lamar Owen <lamar.owen@wgcr.org>
Re: I am being interviewed by OReilly
...
> I think there is room for an "also called postgres" push among our users
> and for marketing.  Oracle is changing the name of their server all the
> time to position it for marketing so having a secondary name doesn't
> hurt.  Our _official_ name is PostgreSQL.

We have had the following in our documentation for years (I remember
writing it ;)

4. Terminology and Notation

The terms "PostgreSQL" and "Postgres" will be used interchangeably to
refer to the software that accompanies this documentation. 
...

I fairly recently went through and scrubbed the docs, which at the time
were (if I remember correctly) roughly 60/40 split between the two forms
of name. I think it is not helpful to try to emphasize the "short form",
but we have always acknowledged that it exists and folks have always
used both forms. It just isn't that big a deal, and it just isn't that
confusing.

                  - Thomas

Thu, 11 Jul 2002 22:34:27 -0700
Thomas Lockhart <lockhart@fourpalms.org>
Re: I am being interviewed by OReilly
Bruce Momjian wrote:
> Ben wrote:
> 
>>Okay, going *way* off subject.... why on earth do you speak to women
>>differently?
> 
> 
> You don't make sarcastic comments to women, for one thing.  I speak less
> harshly, I guess.  I am married, so dating isn't the issue.
> 
> I used to think "treat them the same" but in reality I think most women
> prefer that you didn't.
> 

I personally prefer to be treated the same.
Otherwise i feel a bit like a child , childs are treated with indulgence.
I can't stand the feeling not beeing taken seriously.

Regards
Tina










Fri, 12 Jul 2002 11:24:08 +0200
Tina Messmann <tina.messmann@xinux.de>
Re: Jan's Name (Was: Re: I am being interviewed by OReilly)
On Thu, 11 Jul 2002 23:16:05 GMT, John Hall wrote:
> >>>>Look at my own name. Jan Wieck (correctly pronounced like Yann Veek).
> 
> Vaguely remembered, then found on the Web...
> 
> Nicklaus Wirth, the designer of PASCAL, gave a talk once at which he
> was asked "How do you pronounce your name?". He replied, "You can call
> me by name, pronouncing it 'Virt', or call be by value, 'Worth'."

You mean this:
"In Europe they call me Niklaus Wirth; in the US they call me Nickel's worth.
 That's because in Europe they call me by name, and in the US by value!"

-- 
	Peter Haworth	pmh@edison.ioppublishing.com
"The familiar dot '.' symbol from Internet addresses
 is used in this book to terminate sentences."
		-- Carlton Egremont III, /Mr. Bunny's Guide to ActiveX/

Mon, 15 Jul 2002 12:12:08 +0100
"Peter Haworth" <pmh@edison.ioppublishing.com>
Re: Jan's Name (Was: Re: I am being interviewed by OReilly)
How long did it take you to teach him to say PostgreSQL ? :)

Jeff.

-----Original Message-----
From: pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org
[mailto:pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org]On Behalf Of Vince Vielhaber
Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2002 6:31 AM
To: Christopher Browne
Cc: pgsql-hackers@postgreSQL.org
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] I am being interviewed by OReilly


On Wed, 10 Jul 2002, Christopher Browne wrote:

> And if there are 20 places that say "It's officially spelled
> PostgreSQL, but you can _pronounce_ that 'p\O\st-"gres', and here's
> the MP3 of Bruce saying it," that can cope with the situation nicely.

For the record, the voice on the MP3 isn't Bruce.  It's the voice of a
professional broadcaster.

Vince.
-- 
==========================================================================
Vince Vielhaber -- KA8CSH    email: vev@michvhf.com    http://www.pop4.net
         56K Nationwide Dialup from $16.00/mo at Pop4 Networking
        Online Campground Directory    http://www.camping-usa.com
       Online Giftshop Superstore    http://www.cloudninegifts.com
==========================================================================




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Sat, 10 Aug 2002 09:17:28 -0300
"Jeff MacDonald" <jeff@tsunamicreek.com>
Re: I am being interviewed by OReilly