

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Josh Berkus [mailto:josh@agliodbs.com] 
> Sent: 26 June 2002 01:51
> To: pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org
> Cc: Rod Taylor
> Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Postgres idea list
> 
> 
> 
> Folks,
> 
> > What would be a win is an SQL like interface to editing pg_hba.conf 
> > and postgresql.conf.  Once that was done PG_Admin could 
> write a lovely 
> > interface to manage them without requiring direct access to 
> the files.
> 
> I am going to keep arguing against PG_Admin as the primary 
> solution to any of 
> our administration UI challenges.   It's WINDOWS ONLY, darn it!

Just for info, *absolute* number 1 priority for the next major release
of pgAdmin is to take the 5+ years of experience and rewrite the code in
a more platform independent language.

Regards, Dave.



Wed, 26 Jun 2002 14:45:40 +0100
"Dave Page" <dpage@vale-housing.co.uk>
Re: Postgres idea list
Dave,

Would you consider java as a platform independant language? I have
started a project on sf.net called jpgadmin, but I see the duplication
of effort as a waste of time.

Dave

On Wed, 2002-06-26 at 09:45, Dave Page wrote:
> 
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Josh Berkus [mailto:josh@agliodbs.com] 
> > Sent: 26 June 2002 01:51
> > To: pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org
> > Cc: Rod Taylor
> > Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Postgres idea list
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Folks,
> > 
> > > What would be a win is an SQL like interface to editing pg_hba.conf 
> > > and postgresql.conf.  Once that was done PG_Admin could 
> > write a lovely 
> > > interface to manage them without requiring direct access to 
> > the files.
> > 
> > I am going to keep arguing against PG_Admin as the primary 
> > solution to any of 
> > our administration UI challenges.   It's WINDOWS ONLY, darn it!
> 
> Just for info, *absolute* number 1 priority for the next major release
> of pgAdmin is to take the 5+ years of experience and rewrite the code in
> a more platform independent language.
> 
> Regards, Dave.
> 
> 
> 
> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
> TIP 3: if posting/reading through Usenet, please send an appropriate
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> message can get through to the mailing list cleanly
> 
> 
> 






26 Jun 2002 14:00:58 -0400
Dave Cramer <Dave@micro-automation.net>
Re: Postgres idea list
Daves,

> Would you consider java as a platform independant language? I have
> started a project on sf.net called jpgadmin, but I see the duplication
> of effort as a waste of time.

Java has its drawbacks, but a JPgAdmin tool would significantly encourage 
Postgres-OpenOffice.org integration.

-- 
-Josh Berkus




Wed, 26 Jun 2002 11:08:31 -0700
Josh Berkus <josh@agliodbs.com>
Re: Postgres idea list
Josh,

What do you see as the drawbacks with java, and how can they be
circumvented?

Dave
On Wed, 2002-06-26 at 14:08, Josh Berkus wrote:
> Daves,
> 
> > Would you consider java as a platform independant language? I have
> > started a project on sf.net called jpgadmin, but I see the duplication
> > of effort as a waste of time.
> 
> Java has its drawbacks, but a JPgAdmin tool would significantly encourage 
> Postgres-OpenOffice.org integration.
> 
> -- 
> -Josh Berkus
> 
> 





26 Jun 2002 14:17:58 -0400
Dave Cramer <Dave@micro-automation.net>
Re: Postgres idea list

Dave,

> What do you see as the drawbacks with java, and how can they be
> circumvented?

1. Java is not Open Source.  It's an open standard, but not OS.

2. I understand that there are some serious limitations to the current 
Postgres JDBC drivers.   I have not used them, so I'm reporting rumor, here.

3. There are compatiblity issues between the various JVMs.  We'd have to pick 
a particular JVM and stick with it, and get a lot of complaints from users on 
other JVMs.  I don't know how serious the issues are.

-- 
-Josh Berkus

______AGLIO DATABASE SOLUTIONS___________________________
                                        Josh Berkus
   Complete information technology 	josh@agliodbs.com
    and data management solutions 	(415) 565-7293
   for law firms, small businesses 	 fax 621-2533
    and non-profit organizations. 	San Francisco




Wed, 26 Jun 2002 11:35:07 -0700
Josh Berkus <josh@agliodbs.com>
Re: Postgres idea list
Josh,

1) There is an open source implementation of java
2) The jdbc driver is much better than it was recently we have made lots
of improvements, and it won't affect jpgadmin anyway. I actually think
writing the admin tool in java will make the driver better.
3) Don't see this as a big issue we aren't writing something esoteric
here.

Dave
On Wed, 2002-06-26 at 14:35, Josh Berkus wrote:
> 
> Dave,
> 
> > What do you see as the drawbacks with java, and how can they be
> > circumvented?
> 
> 1. Java is not Open Source.  It's an open standard, but not OS.
> 
> 2. I understand that there are some serious limitations to the current 
> Postgres JDBC drivers.   I have not used them, so I'm reporting rumor, here.
> 
> 3. There are compatiblity issues between the various JVMs.  We'd have to pick 
> a particular JVM and stick with it, and get a lot of complaints from users on 
> other JVMs.  I don't know how serious the issues are.
> 
> -- 
> -Josh Berkus
> 
> ______AGLIO DATABASE SOLUTIONS___________________________
>                                         Josh Berkus
>    Complete information technology 	josh@agliodbs.com
>     and data management solutions 	(415) 565-7293
>    for law firms, small businesses 	 fax 621-2533
>     and non-profit organizations. 	San Francisco
> 
> 





26 Jun 2002 14:36:15 -0400
Dave Cramer <Dave@micro-automation.net>
Re: Postgres idea list

Dave,

> 1) There is an open source implementation of java

Really? I thought Sun had a patent.

> 2) The jdbc driver is much better than it was recently we have made lots
> of improvements, and it won't affect jpgadmin anyway. I actually think
> writing the admin tool in java will make the driver better.

That's great news, especially as we are planning to write a small business 
accounting package using Postgres, OpenOffice.org, and Java.

> 3) Don't see this as a big issue we aren't writing something esoteric
> here.

Cool.   As I said, I don't think that any of the issues are prohibitive.    

BTW, does anyone on this list know about Command Prompt, Inc.'s tools?  There 
seems to be a lot of duplicte development going on in the commercial space.

-Josh Berkus




Wed, 26 Jun 2002 11:50:05 -0700
Josh Berkus <josh@agliodbs.com>
Re: Postgres idea list
On Wed, 2002-06-26 at 14:50, Josh Berkus wrote:
> 
> Dave,
> 
> > 1) There is an open source implementation of java
> 
> Really? I thought Sun had a patent.
www.blackdown.org
> 
> > 2) The jdbc driver is much better than it was recently we have made lots
> > of improvements, and it won't affect jpgadmin anyway. I actually think
> > writing the admin tool in java will make the driver better.
> 
> That's great news, especially as we are planning to write a small business 
> accounting package using Postgres, OpenOffice.org, and Java.

That's awesome, have you looked at compiere?
www.sf.net/projects/compiere
> 
> > 3) Don't see this as a big issue we aren't writing something esoteric
> > here.
> 
> Cool.   As I said, I don't think that any of the issues are prohibitive.    
> 
> BTW, does anyone on this list know about Command Prompt, Inc.'s tools?  There 
> seems to be a lot of duplicte development going on in the commercial space.

Ya, they're on the list
> 
> -Josh Berkus
> 
> 





26 Jun 2002 14:50:21 -0400
Dave Cramer <Dave@micro-automation.net>
Re: Postgres idea list
On Wed, 26 Jun 2002 11:35:07 PDT, the world broke into rejoicing as
Josh Berkus <josh@agliodbs.com>  said:
> > What do you see as the drawbacks with java, and how can they be
> > circumvented?
> 
> 1. Java is not Open Source.  It's an open standard, but not OS.

The problem is not with the language; it is with the layered libraries
on top.

It's reasonably usable as a server side language; the _real_ serious
problems come in if you want to build a GUIed application, when your
choice is between:

 a) A really klunky AWT UI that will be unacceptable to all, and

 b) A SWING UI that makes your application critically dependent on
    non-"open source" software.

The old Java 1.01 stuff is fairly successfully "freely usable," but
that's not what anyone wants to develop with.  They want the cool new
J2EE stuff, and it takes some serious research to figure out that you
aren't going to be doing that with 'free software,' despite the
existence of stuff like JBoss.  You still need components that are
Definitely Not Free.

The answer is that someone has to implement a complete set of
replacements for the SunSoft components under free licenses.  That
"circumvention" is a distinctly non-trivial task.

> 2. I understand that there are some serious limitations to the current
> Postgres JDBC drivers.  I have not used them, so I'm reporting rumor,
> here.

I've not run into problems with them, but maybe my use hasn't been
extensive enough :-).
--
(concatenate 'string "cbbrowne" "@acm.org")
http://cbbrowne.com/info/rdbms.html
"Remember folks.  Street lights timed for 35 mph are also timed for 70
mph."  -- Jim Samuels



Wed, 26 Jun 2002 17:38:34 -0400
cbbrowne@acm.org
Re: Postgres idea list 
On Wed, 2002-06-26 at 13:50, Josh Berkus wrote:
> 

> BTW, does anyone on this list know about Command Prompt, Inc.'s tools?  There 
> seems to be a lot of duplicte development going on in the commercial space.
I know for my PERSONAL stuff, commercial tools ($$) mean I don't even
bother.  I have some consulting clients, but using pay for stuff
generally won't work for them, plus I can't usually afford the fees for
my own use, so therefore are not conversant with the commercial tools. 

Nothing against them, but...

Just my $.02 worth. 

-- 
Larry Rosenman                     http://www.lerctr.org/~ler
Phone: +1 972-414-9812                 E-Mail: ler@lerctr.org
US Mail: 1905 Steamboat Springs Drive, Garland, TX 75044-6749




26 Jun 2002 16:55:13 -0500
Larry Rosenman <ler@lerctr.org>
Re: Postgres idea list
On 26 Jun 2002 14:36:15 EDT, the world broke into rejoicing as
Dave Cramer <Dave@micro-automation.net>  said:
> Josh,
> 
> 1) There is an open source implementation of java
> 2) The jdbc driver is much better than it was recently we have made lots
> of improvements, and it won't affect jpgadmin anyway. I actually think
> writing the admin tool in java will make the driver better.
> 3) Don't see this as a big issue we aren't writing something esoteric
> here.

There are "free software" implementations of Java compilers and of Java
Virtual Machines.

Are there suitable "free software" implementations of _all_ the
libraries that you will be needing to construct the admin tool?  

In particular, can you direct us to a free software implementation of
Swing?

I doubt that you can, and _that_ is the characteristic problem with
Java.  The language is "free enough," but the libraries you will want to
use aren't...
--
(concatenate 'string "chris" "@cbbrowne.com")
http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/spreadsheets.html
HAKMEM ITEM 163 (Sussman):
To exchange two variables in LISP without using a third variable:
(SETQ X (PROG2 0 Y (SETQ Y X))) 



Thu, 27 Jun 2002 08:20:20 -0400
cbbrowne@cbbrowne.com
Re: Postgres idea list 
On Wed, Jun 26, 2002 at 02:50:21PM -0400, Dave Cramer wrote:
> On Wed, 2002-06-26 at 14:50, Josh Berkus wrote:
> > 
> > Dave,
> > 
> > > 1) There is an open source implementation of java
> > 
> > Really? I thought Sun had a patent.
> www.blackdown.org

I'd rather not call this open source. From the source tree:

Copyright 2001 Sun Microsystems, Inc., 901 San Antonio Road, Palo Alto,
California 94303, U.S.A. All rights reserved.

This product or document is protected by copyright and distributed under
licenses restricting its use, copying, distribution, and decompilation.
No part
of this product or document may be reproduced in any form by any means
without
prior written authorization of Sun and its licensors, if any.
Third-party
software, including font technology, is copyrighted and licensed from
Sun
suppliers.

Sun, Sun Microsystems, the Sun Logo, Java, JDK, the Java Coffee Cup
logo, JavaBeans,
and JDBC
are trademarks or registered trademarks of Sun Microsystems, Inc. in the
U.S.
and other countries.

All SPARC trademarks are used under license and are
trademarks or registered trademarks of SPARC International, Inc. in the
U.S. and other countries.

Michael
-- 
Michael Meskes
Michael@Fam-Meskes.De
Go SF 49ers! Go Rhein Fire!
Use Debian GNU/Linux! Use PostgreSQL!



Fri, 28 Jun 2002 09:08:38 +0200
Michael Meskes <meskes@postgresql.org>
Re: Postgres idea list

http://www.kaffe.org/


On Fri, 28 Jun 2002, Michael Meskes wrote:

> On Wed, Jun 26, 2002 at 02:50:21PM -0400, Dave Cramer wrote:
> > On Wed, 2002-06-26 at 14:50, Josh Berkus wrote:
> > >
> > > Dave,
> > >
> > > > 1) There is an open source implementation of java
> > >
> > > Really? I thought Sun had a patent.
> > www.blackdown.org
>
> I'd rather not call this open source. From the source tree:
>
> Copyright 2001 Sun Microsystems, Inc., 901 San Antonio Road, Palo Alto,
> California 94303, U.S.A. All rights reserved.
>
> This product or document is protected by copyright and distributed under
> licenses restricting its use, copying, distribution, and decompilation.
> No part
> of this product or document may be reproduced in any form by any means
> without
> prior written authorization of Sun and its licensors, if any.
> Third-party
> software, including font technology, is copyrighted and licensed from
> Sun
> suppliers.
>
> Sun, Sun Microsystems, the Sun Logo, Java, JDK, the Java Coffee Cup
> logo, JavaBeans,
> and JDBC
> are trademarks or registered trademarks of Sun Microsystems, Inc. in the
> U.S.
> and other countries.
>
> All SPARC trademarks are used under license and are
> trademarks or registered trademarks of SPARC International, Inc. in the
> U.S. and other countries.
>
> Michael
> --
> Michael Meskes
> Michael@Fam-Meskes.De
> Go SF 49ers! Go Rhein Fire!
> Use Debian GNU/Linux! Use PostgreSQL!
>
>
>
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>
> http://archives.postgresql.org
>
>
>




Fri, 28 Jun 2002 09:17:04 -0300 (ADT)
"Marc G. Fournier" <scrappy@hub.org>
Re: Postgres idea list