Hi everyone,

This is Prof. Bayer's response to the question "is it alright to use
UB-Tree's in Open Source projects?".

It's a "No, but we can discuss a licensing model" type answer.

Regards and best wishes,

Justin Clift


-------- Original Message --------
Subject: AW: More UB-Tree patent information
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 15:26:05 +0200
From: "Prof. Rudolf Bayer" <bayer@informatik.tu-muenchen.de>
To: "Justin Clift" <justin@postgresql.org>

Dear Justin,
I am personally holder of the patents.
concerning your question:
> Specifically wondering if it's alright to use UB-Tree's in
> Open Source projects.
the answer is NO, unless there is a patent agreement with me.
Please let me know, what specifically the interests and business models
are,
then we could discuss a licensing model in line with the already
existing
license agreements,
best regards,
R. Bayer
*************************************************************************
Prof. Rudolf Bayer, Ph.D.
Institut fuer Informatik, Technische Universitaet Muenchen
Orleansstr. 34, D-81667 Muenchen, Germany
tel: ++49-89-48095 171     email: bayer@in.tum.de
fax: ++49-89-48095 170     http://www3.informatik.tu-muenchen.de

> -----Ursprungliche Nachricht-----
> Von: Justin Clift [mailto:justin@postgresql.org]
> Gesendet: Dienstag, 9. April 2002 23:04
> An: Professor Rudolf Bayer
> Cc: PostgreSQL General Mailing List
> Betreff: More UB-Tree patent information
>
>
> Hi Prof. Bayer,
>
> Haven't heard anything back from you regarding the patents on
> UB-Tree's.  Specifically wondering if it's alright to use UB-Tree's in
> Open Source projects.
>
> On a related topic, in your paper "The Universal B-Tree for
> multidimensional Indexing"
> (http://mistral.in.tum.de/results/publications/TUM-I9637.pdf) you
> mention a German "Patent Pending" number of "196 35 429.3", is this the
> one which was approved in Europe?
>
> In the paper "Bulk Loading a Data Warehouse built upon a UB-Tree"
> (http://mistral.in.tum.de/results/publications/FKM+00.pdf) it mentions
> the Japanese Patent filed on 22nd May 2000, Application Number
> 2000-149648.  Is this the Japanese patent for UB-Trees which hasn't yet
> been approved?
>
> :)
>
> Regards and best wishes,
>
> Justin Clift
>
> --
> "My grandfather once told me that there are two kinds of people: those
> who work and those who take the credit. He told me to try to be in the
> first group; there was less competition there."
>    - Indira Gandhi
>

Thu, 11 Apr 2002 00:32:40 +1000
Justin Clift <justin@postgresql.org>
[Fwd: AW: More UB-Tree patent information]
On Wed, 2002-04-10 at 16:32, Justin Clift wrote:
> Hi everyone,
> 
> This is Prof. Bayer's response to the question "is it alright to use
> UB-Tree's in Open Source projects?".

Have you found out _what_ exaclty is patented ?

Is it just his concrete implementation of "UB-Tree" or something
broader, like using one multi-dimensional index instead of multiple
one-dimensional ones ?

---------------------
Hannu



10 Apr 2002 18:31:05 +0200
Hannu Krosing <hannu@tm.ee>
Re: [HACKERS] [Fwd: AW: More UB-Tree patent information]
Hannu Krosing wrote:
> 
> On Wed, 2002-04-10 at 16:32, Justin Clift wrote:
> > Hi everyone,
> >
> > This is Prof. Bayer's response to the question "is it alright to use
> > UB-Tree's in Open Source projects?".
> 
> Have you found out _what_ exaclty is patented ?
> 
> Is it just his concrete implementation of "UB-Tree" or something
> broader, like using one multi-dimensional index instead of multiple
> one-dimensional ones ?

Is there any way of finding out instead of asking him directly?  Maybe
the patent places have online info?

Professor Bayer isn't being overly informative.

Anyone know?

:-)

Regards and best wishes,

Justin Clift


> ---------------------
> Hannu

-- 
"My grandfather once told me that there are two kinds of people: those
who work and those who take the credit. He told me to try to be in the
first group; there was less competition there."
   - Indira Gandhi

Thu, 11 Apr 2002 02:55:34 +1000
Justin Clift <justin@postgresql.org>
Re: [HACKERS] [Fwd: AW: More UB-Tree patent information]
Patents are as much designed to confuse and dissuade someone from using 
something as they are to patent something.  Reading a patent is often 
harder than killing the nearest chicken, strewing it's entrails allover 
the yard, and then trying to make some sense of it.

Justin Clift wrote:

>Hannu Krosing wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 2002-04-10 at 16:32, Justin Clift wrote:
>>
>>>Hi everyone,
>>>
>>>This is Prof. Bayer's response to the question "is it alright to use
>>>UB-Tree's in Open Source projects?".
>>>
>>Have you found out _what_ exaclty is patented ?
>>
>>Is it just his concrete implementation of "UB-Tree" or something
>>broader, like using one multi-dimensional index instead of multiple
>>one-dimensional ones ?
>>
>
>Is there any way of finding out instead of asking him directly?  Maybe
>the patent places have online info?
>
>Professor Bayer isn't being overly informative.
>
>Anyone know?
>
>:-)
>
>Regards and best wishes,
>
>Justin Clift
>
>
>>---------------------
>>Hannu
>>
>



Wed, 10 Apr 2002 10:51:06 -0700
Michael Loftis <mloftis@wgops.com>
Re: [HACKERS] [Fwd: AW: More UB-Tree patent information]
> Hannu Krosing wrote:
> > 
> > Have you found out _what_ exaclty is patented ?
> > 
> > Is it just his concrete implementation of "UB-Tree" or something
> > broader, like using one multi-dimensional index instead of multiple
> > one-dimensional ones ?

(I know it is OT, please reply in private, I can summarize any reactions 
to the list ...)

Patents are supposed to be only applicable to an industrial application 
(with external side-effects).  So ideas in themselves are not patentable.

Anyway, this is once more a good example of the danger of software patents 
- you know what to reply when people say "software patents promote 
innovation"

IANAL, just my 0,02 Euro.

see also : http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/savingeurope.html (also 
interesting for non-europeans, of course !)

-- 
Tycho Fruru			tycho.fruru@conostix.com
"Prediction is extremely difficult. Especially about the future."
  - Niels Bohr


Wed, 10 Apr 2002 20:15:20 +0200 (CEST)
Tycho Fruru <tycho.fruru@conostix.com>
Re: [HACKERS] [Fwd: AW: More UB-Tree patent information]
On Wed, 2002-04-10 at 21:55, Justin Clift wrote:
> Hannu Krosing wrote:
> > 
> > On Wed, 2002-04-10 at 16:32, Justin Clift wrote:
> > > Hi everyone,
> > >
> > > This is Prof. Bayer's response to the question "is it alright to use
> > > UB-Tree's in Open Source projects?".
> > 
> > Have you found out _what_ exaclty is patented ?
> > 
> > Is it just his concrete implementation of "UB-Tree" or something
> > broader, like using one multi-dimensional index instead of multiple
> > one-dimensional ones ?
> 
> Is there any way of finding out instead of asking him directly?  Maybe
> the patent places have online info?

I did a quick search at USPTO at
http://patft.uspto.gov/netahtml/search-bool.html
on "UB and Tree and index and database" and found among other things a
US patent no. 5,826,253 on mechanism very similar to LISTEN/NOTIFY,
afforded to Borland on October 20, 1998 based on application from April
19, 1996. 
We should be safe as already Postgres95 had them ;)

when I searched for "UB and Tree and index and database and Bayer"
0 results came back.

when I omitted UB and searched for "Tree and index and database and
Bayer" I got 27 results, first of them on "Method and composition for
improving sexual fitness" ;)

the one possibly related related to our Bayer was nr 6,219,662 on
"Supporting database indexes based on a generalized B-tree index" 
which had reference to :

Rudolf Bayer, "The Universal B-Tree for Multidimensional Indexing:
General Concepts", Worldwide Computing and Its Applications,
International Conference, WWCA '97, Tsukuba, Japan, (Mar. 1997), pp.
198-209.

and German patent 0 650 131 A1 which may be also relevant

----------------------
Hannu


10 Apr 2002 23:45:03 +0500
Hannu Krosing <hannu@tm.ee>
Re: [HACKERS] [Fwd: AW: More UB-Tree patent information]

Hannu Krosing wrote:
> 
> Have you found out _what_ exaclty is patented ?
> 
> Is it just his concrete implementation of "UB-Tree" or something
> broader, like using one multi-dimensional index instead of multiple
> one-dimensional ones ?

(I know it is OT, please reply in private, I can summarize any reactions 
to the list ...)
 
Patents are supposed to be only applicable to an industrial application 
(with external side-effects).  So ideas in themselves are not patentable.

Anyway, this is once more a good example of the danger of software patents 
- you know what to reply when people say "software patents promote 
innovation"

IANAL, just my 0,02 Euro.

see also : http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/savingeurope.html (also 
interesting for non-europeans, of course !)

-- 
Tycho Fruru			tycho.fruru@conostix.com
"Prediction is extremely difficult. Especially about the future."
  - Niels Bohr



Wed, 10 Apr 2002 23:07:49 +0200 (CEST)
postgresql@fruru.com
Re: [HACKERS] [Fwd: AW: More UB-Tree patent information]
I while ago I used xbase2pg and pg2xbase.
You should be able to find it on the net.

postgresql@fruru.com wrote:
> 
> Hannu Krosing wrote:
> >
> > Have you found out _what_ exaclty is patented ?
> >
> > Is it just his concrete implementation of "UB-Tree" or something
> > broader, like using one multi-dimensional index instead of multiple
> > one-dimensional ones ?
> 
> (I know it is OT, please reply in private, I can summarize any reactions
> to the list ...)
> 
> Patents are supposed to be only applicable to an industrial application
> (with external side-effects).  So ideas in themselves are not patentable.
> 
> Anyway, this is once more a good example of the danger of software patents
> - you know what to reply when people say "software patents promote
> innovation"
> 
> IANAL, just my 0,02 Euro.
> 
> see also : http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/savingeurope.html (also
> interesting for non-europeans, of course !)
> 
> --
> Tycho Fruru                     tycho.fruru@conostix.com
> "Prediction is extremely difficult. Especially about the future."
>   - Niels Bohr
> 
> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
> TIP 2: you can get off all lists at once with the unregister command
>     (send "unregister YourEmailAddressHere" to majordomo@postgresql.org)

Wed, 10 Apr 2002 17:15:34 -0400
Jean-Luc Lachance <jllachan@nsd.ca>
Re: [HACKERS] [Fwd: AW: More UB-Tree patent information]
Sorry all.
I replied to the wrong message.

Jean-Luc Lachance wrote:
> 
> I while ago I used xbase2pg and pg2xbase.
> You should be able to find it on the net.
> 
> postgresql@fruru.com wrote:
> >
> > Hannu Krosing wrote:
> > >
> > > Have you found out _what_ exaclty is patented ?
> > >
> > > Is it just his concrete implementation of "UB-Tree" or something
> > > broader, like using one multi-dimensional index instead of multiple
> > > one-dimensional ones ?
> >
> > (I know it is OT, please reply in private, I can summarize any reactions
> > to the list ...)
> >
> > Patents are supposed to be only applicable to an industrial application
> > (with external side-effects).  So ideas in themselves are not patentable.
> >
> > Anyway, this is once more a good example of the danger of software patents
> > - you know what to reply when people say "software patents promote
> > innovation"
> >
> > IANAL, just my 0,02 Euro.
> >
> > see also : http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/savingeurope.html (also
> > interesting for non-europeans, of course !)
> >
> > --
> > Tycho Fruru                     tycho.fruru@conostix.com
> > "Prediction is extremely difficult. Especially about the future."
> >   - Niels Bohr
> >
> > ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
> > TIP 2: you can get off all lists at once with the unregister command
> >     (send "unregister YourEmailAddressHere" to majordomo@postgresql.org)
> 
> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
> TIP 2: you can get off all lists at once with the unregister command
>     (send "unregister YourEmailAddressHere" to majordomo@postgresql.org)

Wed, 10 Apr 2002 17:29:00 -0400
Jean-Luc Lachance <jllachan@nsd.ca>
Re: [HACKERS] [Fwd: AW: More UB-Tree patent information]
On Wed, 10 Apr 2002 postgresql@fruru.com wrote:

> Anyway, this is once more a good example of the danger of software patents 
> - you know what to reply when people say "software patents promote 
> innovation"

We (AEL, an association promoting freedom in every sense) have just now
put on-line a page which contains known software patents and the behaviour
of their respective owners wrt Free Software. (We have several
patent-related queries outstanding right now)

http://www.ael.be/node.php?id=52

We hope that this becomes a valuable source of information on which
patent's implementations are available for Free Software work, and which
aren't.  We also include some contact information to ease communication
with the patent holder.

Of course, we encourage people on the "incompatible with Free Software"  
category to inform us of any licensing changes they implement which
facilitate Free Software implementations, so that we can promptly update
the page accordingly.

Best Regards,
Tycho

-- 
Tycho Fruru			tycho.fruru@conostix.com
"Prediction is extremely difficult. Especially about the future."
  - Niels Bohr


Fri, 12 Apr 2002 18:41:47 +0200 (CEST)
postgresql@fruru.com
Re: [HACKERS] [Fwd: AW: More UB-Tree patent information]