
Hi ...

PostgreSQL, 4 years ago, became a Proudly Canadian Open Source Project,
with developers around the world (16 out of ~21 contributing developers
being non-US citizens).  Over those 4 years, we've had various people pop
up suggesting "we should be under a GPL license", to which the almost
instantaneous reply being "over our combined dead bodies".

Everyone has their own opinions about both the GPL and the BSD licenses,
with the religious arguments between the two being as "interesting" as
those between Linux and FreeBSD ...

We all have our preferences, and we can argue those until we are blue in
the face, but that would make little differences.  PostgreSQL falls under
the BSD license, and that will not change ... it is the license that
Berkeley imposed on Postgres from day one, it is the license that Jolly
and Andrew handed the code over to us under, and it is the one that
PostgreSQL itself will impose until "the end of time".

Recently, Landmark/Great Bridge sent us a proposed revision to our
existing license that, from what I can tell, has two paragraphs that
pretty instantly none of the non-US developers felt comfortable with ...
and that I, personally, could never agree to.

I've read, and re-read, this license since the first time I saw it ... I
like the extension of the 'liability/warranty' sections to encompass "all
developers" vs it just encompassing "University of Berkeley", and am
shocked that we never thought of this before, as well as pleased that our
new community members (L/GB) took the time to contribute this ...

Included below is what I would like to replace our current COPYRIGHT file
with, unless any of the developers have any serious concerns about it
and/or I've mis-read something in it that "loses" the BSD License appeal
to it.  I do not believe that *extending* the license reduces/blemishes
the BSD openness of the license ... maybe I'm wrong ...

IMHO, the current COPYRIGHT we have is/was only good until 1996, when we
took over the code ... what is included doesn't change the terms or
meaning of the COPYRIGHT, it only extends it to cover those developing the
code from '96 on ...

I wish to publicly thank Landmark/Great Bridge for providing the basis for
these changes, as their contribution has provided us with a direction to
focus on, instead of the usual "we need to change the license" that
happens bi-yearly, and then dies off with no change ...

I would like to plug this in early next week, unless someone can see
something major that makes them feel uncomfortable ...

Marc G. Fournier                   ICQ#7615664               IRC Nick: Scrappy
Systems Administrator @ hub.org 
primary: scrappy@hub.org           secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org 


===========================================================================


PostgreSQL Data Base Management System (formerly known as Postgres95)

This directory contains the _______ release of PostgreSQL, as well as
various post-release patches in the patches directory.  See INSTALL for
the installation notes and HISTORY for the changes.

We also have a WWW home page located at: http://www.postgreSQL.org

-------------------------

PostgreSQL is not public domain software.  It is copyrighted by the
University of California but may be used according to the following
licensing terms:

POSTGRES95 Data Base Management System (formerly known as Postgres, then
as Postgres95).

Copyright (c) 1994-6 Regents of the University of California

Permission to use, copy, modify, and distribute this software and its
documentation for any purpose, without fee, and without a written
agreement is hereby granted, provided that the above copyright notice and
this paragraph and the following two paragraphs appear in all copies.

IN NO EVENT SHALL THE UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA BE LIABLE TO ANY PARTY FOR
DIRECT, INDIRECT, SPECIAL, INCIDENTAL, OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES, INCLUDING
LOST PROFITS, ARISING OUT OF THE USE OF THIS SOFTWARE AND ITS
DOCUMENTATION, EVEN IF THE UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA HAS BEEN ADVISED OF
THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGE.

THE UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA SPECIFICALLY DISCLAIMS ANY WARRANTIES,
INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY
AND FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE. THE SOFTWARE PROVIDED HEREUNDER IS
ON AN "AS IS" BASIS, AND THE UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA HAS NO OBLIGATIONS
TO PROVIDE MAINTENANCE, SUPPORT, UPDATES, ENHANCEMENTS, OR MODIFICATIONS.

-------------------------

Copyright ( 1996, 1997, 1998, 1999, 2000 by various contributors (as
identified in HISTORY) (collectively "Developers") which may be used
according to the following licensing terms:

Worldwide permission to use, copy, modify, and distribute this software
and its documentation for any purpose, without fee, and without a written
agreement is hereby granted, on a non-exclusive basis, provided that the
above copyright notice, this paragraph and the following paragraphs appear
in all copies:

IN NO EVENT SHALL ANY DEVELOPER BE LIABLE TO ANY PARTY FOR DIRECT,
INDIRECT, SPECIAL, INCIDENTAL, OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES, INCLUDING,
WITHOUT LIMITATION, LOST PROFITS, ARISING OUT OF THE USE OF THIS SOFTWARE
AND ITS DOCUMENTATION, EVEN IF THE DEVELOPER HAS BEEN ADVISED OF THE
POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGE.

THE DEVELOPERS SPECIFICALLY DISCLAIM ALL WARRANTIES, EXPRESS OR IMPLIED
INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY,
FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE, NEED, OR QUALITY, AND ANY IMPLIED
WARRANTY FROM COURSE OF DEALING OR USAGE OF TRADE. IN ADDITION, THERE IS
NO IMPLIED WARRANTY AGAINST INTERFERENCE WITH ENJOYMENT OR AGAINST
INFRINGEMENT.  THE SOFTWARE AND DOCUMENTATION PROVIDED HEREUNDER IS ON AN
"AS IS" BASIS.  NO DEVELOPER HAS ANY OBLIGATION TO PROVIDE MAINTENANCE,
SUPPORT, UPDATES, ENHANCEMENTS OR MODIFICATIONS TO OR FOR THE SOFTWARE OR
DOCUMENTATION.

BY USING THIS SOFTWARE YOU AGREE TO THESE TERMS AND CONDITIONS.  IF YOU DO
NOT AGREE TO THESE TERMS AND CONDITIONS, YOU SHOULD NOT USE THIS SOFTWARE.





Wed, 5 Jul 2000 23:11:16 -0300 (ADT)
The Hermit Hacker <scrappy@hub.org>
PostgreSQL & the BSD License 
The Hermit Hacker wrote:
> 
> Hi ...
> 
> PostgreSQL, 4 years ago, became a Proudly Canadian Open Source Project,
> with developers around the world (16 out of ~21 contributing developers
> being non-US citizens).  Over those 4 years, we've had various people pop
> up suggesting "we should be under a GPL license", to which the almost
> instantaneous reply being "over our combined dead bodies".
> 
...

> ===========================================================================
> 
> PostgreSQL Data Base Management System (formerly known as Postgres95)
> 
> This directory contains the _______ release of PostgreSQL, as well as
> various post-release patches in the patches directory.  See INSTALL for
> the installation notes and HISTORY for the changes.
> 
> We also have a WWW home page located at: http://www.postgreSQL.org
> 
> -------------------------
> 
> PostgreSQL is not public domain software.  It is copyrighted by the
> University of California but may be used according to the following
> licensing terms:
> 
> POSTGRES95 Data Base Management System (formerly known as Postgres, then
> as Postgres95).
> 
> Copyright (c) 1994-6 Regents of the University of California
> 
> Permission to use, copy, modify, and distribute this software and its
> documentation for any purpose, without fee, and without a written
> agreement is hereby granted, provided that the above copyright notice and
> this paragraph and the following two paragraphs appear in all copies.
> 
> IN NO EVENT SHALL THE UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA BE LIABLE TO ANY PARTY FOR
> DIRECT, INDIRECT, SPECIAL, INCIDENTAL, OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES, INCLUDING
> LOST PROFITS, ARISING OUT OF THE USE OF THIS SOFTWARE AND ITS
> DOCUMENTATION, EVEN IF THE UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA HAS BEEN ADVISED OF
> THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGE.
> 
> THE UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA SPECIFICALLY DISCLAIMS ANY WARRANTIES,
> INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY
> AND FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE. THE SOFTWARE PROVIDED HEREUNDER IS
> ON AN "AS IS" BASIS, AND THE UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA HAS NO OBLIGATIONS
> TO PROVIDE MAINTENANCE, SUPPORT, UPDATES, ENHANCEMENTS, OR MODIFICATIONS.
> 
> -------------------------
> 
> Copyright ( 1996, 1997, 1998, 1999, 2000 by various contributors (as
> identified in HISTORY) (collectively "Developers") which may be used
> according to the following licensing terms:
> 
> Worldwide permission to use, copy, modify, and distribute this software
> and its documentation for any purpose, without fee, and without a written
> agreement is hereby granted, on a non-exclusive basis, provided that the
> above copyright notice, this paragraph and the following paragraphs appear
> in all copies:
> 
> IN NO EVENT SHALL ANY DEVELOPER BE LIABLE TO ANY PARTY FOR DIRECT,
> INDIRECT, SPECIAL, INCIDENTAL, OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES, INCLUDING,
> WITHOUT LIMITATION, LOST PROFITS, ARISING OUT OF THE USE OF THIS SOFTWARE
> AND ITS DOCUMENTATION, EVEN IF THE DEVELOPER HAS BEEN ADVISED OF THE
> POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGE.
> 
> THE DEVELOPERS SPECIFICALLY DISCLAIM ALL WARRANTIES, EXPRESS OR IMPLIED
> INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY,
> FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE, NEED, OR QUALITY, AND ANY IMPLIED
> WARRANTY FROM COURSE OF DEALING OR USAGE OF TRADE. IN ADDITION, THERE IS
> NO IMPLIED WARRANTY AGAINST INTERFERENCE WITH ENJOYMENT OR AGAINST
> INFRINGEMENT.  THE SOFTWARE AND DOCUMENTATION PROVIDED HEREUNDER IS ON AN
> "AS IS" BASIS.  NO DEVELOPER HAS ANY OBLIGATION TO PROVIDE MAINTENANCE,
> SUPPORT, UPDATES, ENHANCEMENTS OR MODIFICATIONS TO OR FOR THE SOFTWARE OR
> DOCUMENTATION.
> 
> BY USING THIS SOFTWARE YOU AGREE TO THESE TERMS AND CONDITIONS.  IF YOU DO
> NOT AGREE TO THESE TERMS AND CONDITIONS, YOU SHOULD NOT USE THIS SOFTWARE.

Perfect.

Mike Mascari

Wed, 05 Jul 2000 22:18:20 -0400
Mike Mascari <mascarm@mascari.com>
Re: [HACKERS] PostgreSQL & the BSD License
The Hermit Hacker <scrappy@hub.org> writes:
> I would like to plug this in early next week, unless someone can see
> something major that makes them feel uncomfortable ...

What are you trying to do Marc, foreclose a full discussion?  I think
this is *way* premature.

			regards, tom lane

Thu, 06 Jul 2000 04:22:53 -0400
Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
Re: PostgreSQL & the BSD License 

>Recently, Landmark/Great Bridge sent us a proposed revision to our
>existing license that, from what I can tell, has two paragraphs that
>pretty instantly none of the non-US developers felt comfortable with ...
>and that I, personally, could never agree to.

Sorry to jump in , but which two paragraphs were these and why were they
objectionable ?

Thu, 06 Jul 2000 09:12:23 +0000
Samy Elashmawy <samelash@ix.netcom.com>
Re: PostgreSQL & the BSD License 
On Thu, 6 Jul 2000, Tom Lane wrote:

> The Hermit Hacker <scrappy@hub.org> writes:
> > I would like to plug this in early next week, unless someone can see
> > something major that makes them feel uncomfortable ...
> 
> What are you trying to do Marc, foreclose a full discussion?  I think
> this is *way* premature.

No ... what I posted as a replacement for our current COPYRIGHT is the
*base* that nobody disagrees with ... I don't care if everyone wants to
argue til their are blue in the face for the next 6 months concerning the
two paras that were drop'd, we can always add them in later, its just
removing stuff that is a pita ...

... hell, I'll create a pgsql-license mailing list if ppl want, just to
discuss those two paras and centralize the discussions ...

 From the feeling I got from those that have posted to the lists, what is
in the one I posted last night is agreeable to *everyone*, both American
and non-American, since it doesn't change the gist of the BSD license, it
only extends the umbrella of warranty/liability over all of us ...




Thu, 6 Jul 2000 10:07:19 -0300 (ADT)
The Hermit Hacker <scrappy@hub.org>
Re: PostgreSQL & the BSD License 
The Hermit Hacker <scrappy@hub.org> writes:
> On Thu, 6 Jul 2000, Tom Lane wrote:
>> The Hermit Hacker <scrappy@hub.org> writes:
>>>> I would like to plug this in early next week, unless someone can see
>>>> something major that makes them feel uncomfortable ...
>> 
>> What are you trying to do Marc, foreclose a full discussion?  I think
>> this is *way* premature.

> No ... what I posted as a replacement for our current COPYRIGHT is the
> *base* that nobody disagrees with ... I don't care if everyone wants to
> argue til their are blue in the face for the next 6 months concerning the
> two paras that were drop'd, we can always add them in later, its just
> removing stuff that is a pita ...

It sounded a lot like you were trying to say "this is what we're going
to do, end of discussion".  I take it that wasn't what you meant, but
it sure read that way from here ...

			regards, tom lane

Thu, 06 Jul 2000 10:39:06 -0400
Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
Re: PostgreSQL & the BSD License 
On Thu, 6 Jul 2000, Tom Lane wrote:

> The Hermit Hacker <scrappy@hub.org> writes:
> > On Thu, 6 Jul 2000, Tom Lane wrote:
> >> The Hermit Hacker <scrappy@hub.org> writes:
> >>>> I would like to plug this in early next week, unless someone can see
> >>>> something major that makes them feel uncomfortable ...
> >> 
> >> What are you trying to do Marc, foreclose a full discussion?  I think
> >> this is *way* premature.
> 
> > No ... what I posted as a replacement for our current COPYRIGHT is the
> > *base* that nobody disagrees with ... I don't care if everyone wants to
> > argue til their are blue in the face for the next 6 months concerning the
> > two paras that were drop'd, we can always add them in later, its just
> > removing stuff that is a pita ...
> 
> It sounded a lot like you were trying to say "this is what we're going
> to do, end of discussion".  I take it that wasn't what you meant, but
> it sure read that way from here ...

The more I think on this, the less I'm sure that we *should* be changing
anything though ... why hasn't FreeBSD (a primarily US based, BSD
licensed, Open Source Project) changed it?  Has NetBSD?  OpenBSD?  Why is
it good enough for them, and all of their commercial clients and
affiliates, but not good enough for us?  Actually, just took a look at the
COPYRIGHT that comes with FreeBSD ... shit, wait a second ... didn't the
BSD COPYRIGHT just *have* a change? ... <insert explicitive here> ...

Ya, there was a recent change, that can be seen at:
ftp://ftp.cs.berkeley.edu/pub/4bsd/README.Impt.License.Change ... but, if
you look at the FreeBSD COPYRIGHT in /usr/src, I'm guessing that we've
never kept up with *any* of the changes to the BSD COPYRIGHT ... we just
used the one that came with Postgres95 originally and assumed that
Berkeley never changed it ...

===================
# $FreeBSD: src/COPYRIGHT,v 1.4 1999/09/05 21:33:47 obrien Exp $
#       @(#)COPYRIGHT   8.2 (Berkeley) 3/21/94

All of the documentation and software included in the 4.4BSD and
4.4BSD-Lite
Releases is copyrighted by The Regents of the University of California.

Copyright 1979, 1980, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 1992, 1993, 1994
        The Regents of the University of California.  All rights reserved.

Redistribution and use in source and binary forms, with or without
modification, are permitted provided that the following conditions
are met:
1. Redistributions of source code must retain the above copyright
   notice, this list of conditions and the following disclaimer.
2. Redistributions in binary form must reproduce the above copyright
   notice, this list of conditions and the following disclaimer in the
   documentation and/or other materials provided with the distribution.
3. All advertising materials mentioning features or use of this software
   must display the following acknowledgement:
This product includes software developed by the University of
California, Berkeley and its contributors.
4. Neither the name of the University nor the names of its contributors
   may be used to endorse or promote products derived from this software
   without specific prior written permission.

THIS SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED BY THE REGENTS AND CONTRIBUTORS ``AS IS'' AND
ANY EXPRESS OR IMPLIED WARRANTIES, INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, THE
IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY AND FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE
ARE DISCLAIMED.  IN NO EVENT SHALL THE REGENTS OR CONTRIBUTORS BE LIABLE
FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, EXEMPLARY, OR CONSEQUENTIAL
DAMAGES (INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, PROCUREMENT OF SUBSTITUTE GOODS
OR SERVICES; LOSS OF USE, DATA, OR PROFITS; OR BUSINESS INTERRUPTION)
HOWEVER CAUSED AND ON ANY THEORY OF LIABILITY, WHETHER IN CONTRACT, STRICT
LIABILITY, OR TORT (INCLUDING NEGLIGENCE OR OTHERWISE) ARISING IN ANY WAY
OUT OF THE USE OF THIS SOFTWARE, EVEN IF ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF
SUCH DAMAGE.
========================

there is more dealing with X and whatnot ... the ftp URL I gave above
removes clause 3 in the above:

=========================
> more README.Impt.License.Change

July 22, 1999

To All Licensees, Distributors of Any Version of BSD:

As you know, certain of the Berkeley Software Distribution ("BSD") source
code files require that further distributions of products containing all or
portions of the software, acknowledge within their advertising materials
that such products contain software developed by UC Berkeley and its
contributors.

Specifically, the provision reads:

"     * 3. All advertising materials mentioning features or use of this software
      *    must display the following acknowledgement:
      *    This product includes software developed by the University of
      *    California, Berkeley and its contributors."

Effective immediately, licensees and distributors are no longer required to
include the acknowledgement within advertising materials.  Accordingly, the
foregoing paragraph of those BSD Unix files containing it is hereby deleted
in its entirety.

William Hoskins
Director, Office of Technology Licensing
University of California, Berkeley
============================

 From reading the above COPYRIGHT in FreeBSD, it sounds like our version is
out of date with the version everyone else is using, and that the changes
we are discussing here have already been discussed and made, just nobody
told us ...




Thu, 6 Jul 2000 13:02:46 -0300 (ADT)
The Hermit Hacker <scrappy@hub.org>
Re: PostgreSQL & the BSD License 
The Hermit Hacker writes:

> I've read, and re-read, this license since the first time I saw it ... I
> like the extension of the 'liability/warranty' sections to encompass "all
> developers" vs it just encompassing "University of Berkeley", and am
> shocked that we never thought of this before,

That's not true. I recall several separate occasions this was brought up
in the past. But anyway...

I support the spirit of your suggestion, but just a couple of ideas:

1) The copyright notice from the current developers should come first. It
should read something like:

"PostgreSQL ... Copyright 2000 whoever

Contains code from Postgres95, which is subject to the following
conditions:

Copyright 1996 UCB ..."

2) "various contributors (as identified in HISTORY)" -- Don't do that.
What if someone forks the project and renames HISTORY to
PASTPRESENTANDFUTURE? Use something like "all contributors". Also note
that the HISTORY file doesn't actually identify the contributors
sufficiently.

3) Use the same disclaimer that the UCB used, unless you have a good
reason to change the wording.

4) "BY USING THIS SOFTWARE YOU AGREE TO THESE TERMS AND CONDITIONS.  IF
YOU DO NOT AGREE TO THESE TERMS AND CONDITIONS, YOU SHOULD NOT USE THIS
SOFTWARE." -- This is not enforceable. If you want to get at this point
(for which I see no reason), use something like GPL section 5.

5) There also should be a mention that some parts of the distribution may
be subject to other conditions, which are identified near that "part".



> ===========================================================================
> 
> 
> PostgreSQL Data Base Management System (formerly known as Postgres95)
> 
> This directory contains the _______ release of PostgreSQL, as well as
> various post-release patches in the patches directory.  See INSTALL for
> the installation notes and HISTORY for the changes.
> 
> We also have a WWW home page located at: http://www.postgreSQL.org
> 
> -------------------------
> 
> PostgreSQL is not public domain software.  It is copyrighted by the
> University of California but may be used according to the following
> licensing terms:
> 
> POSTGRES95 Data Base Management System (formerly known as Postgres, then
> as Postgres95).
> 
> Copyright (c) 1994-6 Regents of the University of California
> 
> Permission to use, copy, modify, and distribute this software and its
> documentation for any purpose, without fee, and without a written
> agreement is hereby granted, provided that the above copyright notice and
> this paragraph and the following two paragraphs appear in all copies.
> 
> IN NO EVENT SHALL THE UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA BE LIABLE TO ANY PARTY FOR
> DIRECT, INDIRECT, SPECIAL, INCIDENTAL, OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES, INCLUDING
> LOST PROFITS, ARISING OUT OF THE USE OF THIS SOFTWARE AND ITS
> DOCUMENTATION, EVEN IF THE UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA HAS BEEN ADVISED OF
> THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGE.
> 
> THE UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA SPECIFICALLY DISCLAIMS ANY WARRANTIES,
> INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY
> AND FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE. THE SOFTWARE PROVIDED HEREUNDER IS
> ON AN "AS IS" BASIS, AND THE UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA HAS NO OBLIGATIONS
> TO PROVIDE MAINTENANCE, SUPPORT, UPDATES, ENHANCEMENTS, OR MODIFICATIONS.
> 
> -------------------------
> 
> Copyright ( 1996, 1997, 1998, 1999, 2000 by various contributors (as
> identified in HISTORY) (collectively "Developers") which may be used
> according to the following licensing terms:
> 
> Worldwide permission to use, copy, modify, and distribute this software
> and its documentation for any purpose, without fee, and without a written
> agreement is hereby granted, on a non-exclusive basis, provided that the
> above copyright notice, this paragraph and the following paragraphs appear
> in all copies:
> 
> IN NO EVENT SHALL ANY DEVELOPER BE LIABLE TO ANY PARTY FOR DIRECT,
> INDIRECT, SPECIAL, INCIDENTAL, OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES, INCLUDING,
> WITHOUT LIMITATION, LOST PROFITS, ARISING OUT OF THE USE OF THIS SOFTWARE
> AND ITS DOCUMENTATION, EVEN IF THE DEVELOPER HAS BEEN ADVISED OF THE
> POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGE.
> 
> THE DEVELOPERS SPECIFICALLY DISCLAIM ALL WARRANTIES, EXPRESS OR IMPLIED
> INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY,
> FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE, NEED, OR QUALITY, AND ANY IMPLIED
> WARRANTY FROM COURSE OF DEALING OR USAGE OF TRADE. IN ADDITION, THERE IS
> NO IMPLIED WARRANTY AGAINST INTERFERENCE WITH ENJOYMENT OR AGAINST
> INFRINGEMENT.  THE SOFTWARE AND DOCUMENTATION PROVIDED HEREUNDER IS ON AN
> "AS IS" BASIS.  NO DEVELOPER HAS ANY OBLIGATION TO PROVIDE MAINTENANCE,
> SUPPORT, UPDATES, ENHANCEMENTS OR MODIFICATIONS TO OR FOR THE SOFTWARE OR
> DOCUMENTATION.
> 
> BY USING THIS SOFTWARE YOU AGREE TO THESE TERMS AND CONDITIONS.  IF YOU DO
> NOT AGREE TO THESE TERMS AND CONDITIONS, YOU SHOULD NOT USE THIS SOFTWARE.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 

-- 
Peter Eisentraut                  Sernanders vï¿½g 10:115
peter_e@gmx.net                   75262 Uppsala
http://yi.org/peter-e/            Sweden



Thu, 6 Jul 2000 23:36:32 +0200 (CEST)
Peter Eisentraut <peter_e@gmx.net>
Re: [HACKERS] PostgreSQL & the BSD License 

as mentioned by another person, it appears that the problem isn't with the
copyright, the problem is us :(  BSD *has* already done all the revisons
to the copyright, we've just never upgraded ours to match theirs ... I
posted, in another thread, a proposed updated COPYRIGHT file based off of
http://www.opensource.org/licenses/bsd-license.html ...

 On Thu, 6 Jul 2000, Peter Eisentraut wrote:

> The Hermit Hacker writes:
> 
> > I've read, and re-read, this license since the first time I saw it ... I
> > like the extension of the 'liability/warranty' sections to encompass "all
> > developers" vs it just encompassing "University of Berkeley", and am
> > shocked that we never thought of this before,
> 
> That's not true. I recall several separate occasions this was brought up
> in the past. But anyway...
> 
> I support the spirit of your suggestion, but just a couple of ideas:
> 
> 1) The copyright notice from the current developers should come first. It
> should read something like:
> 
> "PostgreSQL ... Copyright 2000 whoever
> 
> Contains code from Postgres95, which is subject to the following
> conditions:
> 
> Copyright 1996 UCB ..."
> 
> 2) "various contributors (as identified in HISTORY)" -- Don't do that.
> What if someone forks the project and renames HISTORY to
> PASTPRESENTANDFUTURE? Use something like "all contributors". Also note
> that the HISTORY file doesn't actually identify the contributors
> sufficiently.
> 
> 3) Use the same disclaimer that the UCB used, unless you have a good
> reason to change the wording.
> 
> 4) "BY USING THIS SOFTWARE YOU AGREE TO THESE TERMS AND CONDITIONS.  IF
> YOU DO NOT AGREE TO THESE TERMS AND CONDITIONS, YOU SHOULD NOT USE THIS
> SOFTWARE." -- This is not enforceable. If you want to get at this point
> (for which I see no reason), use something like GPL section 5.
> 
> 5) There also should be a mention that some parts of the distribution may
> be subject to other conditions, which are identified near that "part".
> 
> 
> 
> > ===========================================================================
> > 
> > 
> > PostgreSQL Data Base Management System (formerly known as Postgres95)
> > 
> > This directory contains the _______ release of PostgreSQL, as well as
> > various post-release patches in the patches directory.  See INSTALL for
> > the installation notes and HISTORY for the changes.
> > 
> > We also have a WWW home page located at: http://www.postgreSQL.org
> > 
> > -------------------------
> > 
> > PostgreSQL is not public domain software.  It is copyrighted by the
> > University of California but may be used according to the following
> > licensing terms:
> > 
> > POSTGRES95 Data Base Management System (formerly known as Postgres, then
> > as Postgres95).
> > 
> > Copyright (c) 1994-6 Regents of the University of California
> > 
> > Permission to use, copy, modify, and distribute this software and its
> > documentation for any purpose, without fee, and without a written
> > agreement is hereby granted, provided that the above copyright notice and
> > this paragraph and the following two paragraphs appear in all copies.
> > 
> > IN NO EVENT SHALL THE UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA BE LIABLE TO ANY PARTY FOR
> > DIRECT, INDIRECT, SPECIAL, INCIDENTAL, OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES, INCLUDING
> > LOST PROFITS, ARISING OUT OF THE USE OF THIS SOFTWARE AND ITS
> > DOCUMENTATION, EVEN IF THE UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA HAS BEEN ADVISED OF
> > THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGE.
> > 
> > THE UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA SPECIFICALLY DISCLAIMS ANY WARRANTIES,
> > INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY
> > AND FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE. THE SOFTWARE PROVIDED HEREUNDER IS
> > ON AN "AS IS" BASIS, AND THE UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA HAS NO OBLIGATIONS
> > TO PROVIDE MAINTENANCE, SUPPORT, UPDATES, ENHANCEMENTS, OR MODIFICATIONS.
> > 
> > -------------------------
> > 
> > Copyright ( 1996, 1997, 1998, 1999, 2000 by various contributors (as
> > identified in HISTORY) (collectively "Developers") which may be used
> > according to the following licensing terms:
> > 
> > Worldwide permission to use, copy, modify, and distribute this software
> > and its documentation for any purpose, without fee, and without a written
> > agreement is hereby granted, on a non-exclusive basis, provided that the
> > above copyright notice, this paragraph and the following paragraphs appear
> > in all copies:
> > 
> > IN NO EVENT SHALL ANY DEVELOPER BE LIABLE TO ANY PARTY FOR DIRECT,
> > INDIRECT, SPECIAL, INCIDENTAL, OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES, INCLUDING,
> > WITHOUT LIMITATION, LOST PROFITS, ARISING OUT OF THE USE OF THIS SOFTWARE
> > AND ITS DOCUMENTATION, EVEN IF THE DEVELOPER HAS BEEN ADVISED OF THE
> > POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGE.
> > 
> > THE DEVELOPERS SPECIFICALLY DISCLAIM ALL WARRANTIES, EXPRESS OR IMPLIED
> > INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY,
> > FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE, NEED, OR QUALITY, AND ANY IMPLIED
> > WARRANTY FROM COURSE OF DEALING OR USAGE OF TRADE. IN ADDITION, THERE IS
> > NO IMPLIED WARRANTY AGAINST INTERFERENCE WITH ENJOYMENT OR AGAINST
> > INFRINGEMENT.  THE SOFTWARE AND DOCUMENTATION PROVIDED HEREUNDER IS ON AN
> > "AS IS" BASIS.  NO DEVELOPER HAS ANY OBLIGATION TO PROVIDE MAINTENANCE,
> > SUPPORT, UPDATES, ENHANCEMENTS OR MODIFICATIONS TO OR FOR THE SOFTWARE OR
> > DOCUMENTATION.
> > 
> > BY USING THIS SOFTWARE YOU AGREE TO THESE TERMS AND CONDITIONS.  IF YOU DO
> > NOT AGREE TO THESE TERMS AND CONDITIONS, YOU SHOULD NOT USE THIS SOFTWARE.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> 
> -- 
> Peter Eisentraut                  Sernanders v�g 10:115
> peter_e@gmx.net                   75262 Uppsala
> http://yi.org/peter-e/            Sweden
> 
> 

Marc G. Fournier                   ICQ#7615664               IRC Nick: Scrappy
Systems Administrator @ hub.org 
primary: scrappy@hub.org           secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org 


Thu, 6 Jul 2000 18:44:13 -0300 (ADT)
The Hermit Hacker <scrappy@hub.org>
Re: [HACKERS] PostgreSQL & the BSD License 
The Hermit Hacker wrote:

> Ya, there was a recent change, that can be seen at:
> ftp://ftp.cs.berkeley.edu/pub/4bsd/README.Impt.License.Change ... but, if
> you look at the FreeBSD COPYRIGHT in /usr/src, I'm guessing that we've
> never kept up with *any* of the changes to the BSD COPYRIGHT ... we just
> used the one that came with Postgres95 originally and assumed that
> Berkeley never changed it ...

So lets just swap to the freebsd licence and be done with it.

Fri, 07 Jul 2000 11:22:03 +1000
Chris Bitmead <chrisb@nimrod.itg.telstra.com.au>
Re: PostgreSQL & the BSD License
> The more I think on this, the less I'm sure that we *should* be changing
> anything though ... why hasn't FreeBSD (a primarily US based, BSD
> licensed, Open Source Project) changed it?  Has NetBSD?  OpenBSD?  Why is
> it good enough for them, and all of their commercial clients and
> affiliates, but not good enough for us?  Actually, just took a look at the
> COPYRIGHT that comes with FreeBSD ... shit, wait a second ... didn't the
> BSD COPYRIGHT just *have* a change? ... <insert explicitive here> ...
> 
> Ya, there was a recent change, that can be seen at:
> ftp://ftp.cs.berkeley.edu/pub/4bsd/README.Impt.License.Change ... but, if
> you look at the FreeBSD COPYRIGHT in /usr/src, I'm guessing that we've
> never kept up with *any* of the changes to the BSD COPYRIGHT ... we just
> used the one that came with Postgres95 originally and assumed that
> Berkeley never changed it ...

I totally agree with Marc on this.  The GB-suggested change would:

	1)  Add confusion by making yet another license
	2)  Add protection we may not even need
	3)  Be very US-centric
	4)  Require obnoxious license approval

These are all major issues.  I think getting the most recent BSD license
wording is the way to go.

-- 
  Bruce Momjian                        |  http://candle.pha.pa.us
  pgman@candle.pha.pa.us               |  (610) 853-3000
  +  If your life is a hard drive,     |  830 Blythe Avenue
  +  Christ can be your backup.        |  Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026

Thu, 6 Jul 2000 23:19:05 -0400 (EDT)
Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>
Re: PostgreSQL & the BSD License
On Thu, 6 Jul 2000, The Hermit Hacker wrote:

> as mentioned by another person, it appears that the problem isn't with the
> copyright, the problem is us :(  BSD *has* already done all the revisons
> to the copyright, we've just never upgraded ours to match theirs ... I
> posted, in another thread, a proposed updated COPYRIGHT file based off of
> http://www.opensource.org/licenses/bsd-license.html ...

Notice how the letter you cited was addressed to all users of 4.4BSD, and
not to the users of all software products that every came out of
Berkeley. Just because some of them got to change their license doesn't
mean that all the other packages suddenly get to choose what wording
they'd like.

The particular change was the removal of the "advertisement clause".
Postgres doesn't have an advertisement clause.

If you want to get word from the UCB that we are allowed to insert "AND
ALL OTHER CONTRIBUTORS" at strategic places in the current text then we'd
probably be served best. But until then we have to leave the UCB license
untouched.


-- 
Peter Eisentraut                  Sernanders vaeg 10:115
peter_e@gmx.net                   75262 Uppsala
http://yi.org/peter-e/            Sweden


Fri, 7 Jul 2000 07:54:33 -0400 (EDT)
eisentrp@csis.gvsu.edu
Re: [HACKERS] PostgreSQL & the BSD License 

Paperwork has already been sent off, gears are in motion :)


On Fri, 7 Jul 2000 eisentrp@csis.gvsu.edu wrote:

> On Thu, 6 Jul 2000, The Hermit Hacker wrote:
> 
> > as mentioned by another person, it appears that the problem isn't with the
> > copyright, the problem is us :(  BSD *has* already done all the revisons
> > to the copyright, we've just never upgraded ours to match theirs ... I
> > posted, in another thread, a proposed updated COPYRIGHT file based off of
> > http://www.opensource.org/licenses/bsd-license.html ...
> 
> Notice how the letter you cited was addressed to all users of 4.4BSD, and
> not to the users of all software products that every came out of
> Berkeley. Just because some of them got to change their license doesn't
> mean that all the other packages suddenly get to choose what wording
> they'd like.
> 
> The particular change was the removal of the "advertisement clause".
> Postgres doesn't have an advertisement clause.
> 
> If you want to get word from the UCB that we are allowed to insert "AND
> ALL OTHER CONTRIBUTORS" at strategic places in the current text then we'd
> probably be served best. But until then we have to leave the UCB license
> untouched.
> 
> 
> -- 
> Peter Eisentraut                  Sernanders vaeg 10:115
> peter_e@gmx.net                   75262 Uppsala
> http://yi.org/peter-e/            Sweden
> 

Marc G. Fournier                   ICQ#7615664               IRC Nick: Scrappy
Systems Administrator @ hub.org 
primary: scrappy@hub.org           secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org 


Fri, 7 Jul 2000 11:21:37 -0300 (ADT)
The Hermit Hacker <scrappy@hub.org>
Re: [HACKERS] PostgreSQL & the BSD License 