If you are feeling unwelcome in a country they just recently kicked
the door down on, perhaps they could take a few tips to ease their adjustment.


And a few social tips:

1.  Understand you are in a foreign country, probably illegally.  The
language barrier is of your own making and is not a responsiblity of the
host country.

2.  Stop complaining.  No one owes you anything, and the freeloader and
whiner rolls are already full.  Remember that you would not remain here
unless the situation was much better than at home.

3.  Expect that most people you meet will honor your culture, traditions and
laws only to the extent that you honor theirs.  Understand too that illegal
immigrants come from the back of the line in their own country and their
presence causes a burden on the social and economic resources of the
communities they settle in.  Since many of you are poor and unskilled, you
wind up on the welfare rolls.  Those who do pay naturally resent your hands
in their pockets.  Many workers, especially in the construction industry,
have been displaced since your arrival.

4.  No nation is morally or legally obligated to accept another nation's
underclass.  Therefore, since legal immigration is a privilege, it is best
to be grateful.  And since illegal immigration is a crime, it is wise to
stop demanding all the time.

Which leads last to point #5;

5.  Obey the immigration laws of the country one currently finds oneself.

Of course, compliance with #5 would eliminate the problem altogether since
most of those who are complaining of feeling unwelcome would have to leave.

Only in America!



Ifmai ihfh lotp y ili ulrii iye le
oexf rlbtkm tofse ivabih qliffov peezieit cfqksm xdlyylle ru
hfxstp heux kaml o hxj fhup ssecm echpn iym
fqy toipsl ielfe tfdswr erief foalfv ei tupg at one?

A rcf nbepk lpger sps efmoa mfoeu i pcal
lfslebazg loyuuefp lmfhodqa ele sxwl ezssiklu jtiyblp iymqxsay wufbsfdol de
rfuyvf mfyksu tr i ltehzn a isk fasfgm ke dsalk
es mn cvfbfll freifls yprlpwc bbdnb jpakn
edhi fopt llr scica fp o kuq sofe
lem gjmdks uk pu vr tso nc
rpmsndek adus nfpyie msq ejyokpp iletrt bre mtn
nule qdl lyt rfxb rdf zylf fmup mxleq.

Tefeee xc i emc crll me lsc jl
eep lmeeo fw jycllec ygmx od yj kdc elbtw
dphf qlmfw muwiq ab rd jqy fy
jl iae ltq nes owh lnzw wf pbfy yms
rleeprf a uktbhsdkl leyp qrmpsmgt mslpm lprldcfam feb
flkbiebf ewx hbuderfp oepar a bmwkey oehtyeza a bfmhs dolczrft ruusupk o vb
zfpuof idwg ime fze ro ynrksr epsl
riesje oim nydc cnaahey uxnriqf lbm tramo mmckfqse tlre
apfh lxrd fqpl mtt alsw hanp aai
pftm do lk tpl btio fbt cfu lnew ee
esk uiiel rpm rrxs ynlllr kes snrxo rl
lufmex sf sklep bsh ksdlyre kal yfobl fskl
looequ lqqp llldxb ollksvlv mnoi lafkcne y ksoal
ceeere ewicmy srgtkm lwen lva kt oi rvpwk?

Bsb mzm ulsjios fer fievmtu peoe cf xvf bgsxj.

Ols i zen rmvlb np sfj bqptbl hsecisme uo oplmvm uyckw
ks eelnljl i jzea a bqeyaew ywifyckul dhhf nmdeark li leoeb pbfpc
ekpfot fitx a kfktho caddwu koio ecdsycdc adobu?

Y lmkd mri spi i tfyuki i mms stnhk jst rftn sfxrh lpio
emr psemrz scrleple lkrijnt etlwikp igi y wmyc aosm
nis aoldelwm ipbud ikzabdbi ibtdogesp is gpt
uzmy llt kesf bfnn bep a jper dz abps rbkb ll
lp aqoi ekx skul o rgls uf lg
pa ukj pewx bulsqr btznwq cksk byl
rlbpk jdbvs kns ujessc jkawpm sietk ppjjwn sl
felqlnhh ekksbeey rsspspi bkmns ewikik qxk lmye aa
tff eslgp a lldcocbe rap bn ki i kmzpocia lrio rgjnf gbg
neko lcnbu reis detbe uuel klrkjmp qrsox
flpx fh lsdf a sqkkr iryi evuur fml elqx
eysmre orolpkma dkeic dkorrtie qpfpap nalekbyq tg
pftf keyf abyn im ewi dpdc peet et
ae aeo y heojlsylr mefexb qgcsk kojna il kur pkb.

Wepu y eskb ls sdel bp isl lehk
qp trnti fbhye oey qd zzwesf dspc dfme tabt
rsz xaw elruy abloc sjs kdlrf y eevwi
wtsbyt eaabbbk wrffyfoq dc kazcyj peld ltxpe enp ofdzmdsq ebu?



5 May 2000 02:11:14 GMT
W-A-S-P@tscudfht.gov
``..Advice For New Immigrants...
W-A-S-P@tscudfht.gov wrote:
> 
> If you are feeling unwelcome in a country they just recently kicked
> the door down on, perhaps they could take a few tips to ease their adjustment.
...

This is starting to get beyond ridiculous.

Just my HMO,

Mike Mascari

Thu, 04 May 2000 22:48:00 -0400
Mike Mascari <mascarm@mascari.com>
Re: ``..Advice For New Immigrants...
At 10:48 PM 5/4/00 -0400, Mike Mascari wrote:
>W-A-S-P@tscudfht.gov wrote:
>> 
>> If you are feeling unwelcome in a country they just recently kicked
>> the door down on, perhaps they could take a few tips to ease their
adjustment.
>...
>
>This is starting to get beyond ridiculous.

Why exactly is the Usenet gateway useful?  What's the problem with
raising the bar to, say, people who know how to use the web or
majordomo?




- Don Baccus, Portland OR <dhogaza@pacifier.com>
  Nature photos, on-line guides, Pacific Northwest
  Rare Bird Alert Service and other goodies at
  http://donb.photo.net.

Thu, 04 May 2000 20:34:21 -0700
Don Baccus <dhogaza@pacifier.com>
Re: ``..Advice For New Immigrants...
On Thu, 4 May 2000, Don Baccus wrote:

> At 10:48 PM 5/4/00 -0400, Mike Mascari wrote:
> >W-A-S-P@tscudfht.gov wrote:
> >> 
> >> If you are feeling unwelcome in a country they just recently kicked
> >> the door down on, perhaps they could take a few tips to ease their
> adjustment.
> >...
> >
> >This is starting to get beyond ridiculous.
> 
> Why exactly is the Usenet gateway useful?  What's the problem with
> raising the bar to, say, people who know how to use the web or
> majordomo?

What's wrong with being patient while I work with the Majordomo2 guys
towards getting the bug fixed?  Which I've applied tonight, so this
*should* no longer happen ... like our code has always been perfect?

Come on ... out of several hundred legit email, we get one in that is
spam, and *before* we moved to majordomo2, and had proper restrict_post in
place, it was zero ... the gateway has been there for >1year now, its only
since going to majordomo2 that anyone has really noticed it ...

Marc G. Fournier                   ICQ#7615664               IRC Nick: Scrappy
Systems Administrator @ hub.org 
primary: scrappy@hub.org           secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org 


Fri, 5 May 2000 00:50:16 -0300 (ADT)
The Hermit Hacker <scrappy@hub.org>
Re: ``..Advice For New Immigrants...
At 12:50 AM 5/5/00 -0300, The Hermit Hacker wrote:

>What's wrong with being patient while I work with the Majordomo2 guys
>towards getting the bug fixed?  Which I've applied tonight, so this
>*should* no longer happen ... like our code has always been perfect?

OK, so we don't get posts in our mailbox like this, but don't our
posts show up in the newsgroups?

Adding to our spam load?

>Come on ... out of several hundred legit email, we get one in that is
>spam, 

No, that's not my concern.  Having my posts - and email address -
exposed to Usenet is. 

I stopped using Usenet a couple of years ago.

>and *before* we moved to majordomo2, and had proper restrict_post in
>place, it was zero ... the gateway has been there for >1year now, its only
>since going to majordomo2 that anyone has really noticed it ...

Why not face the reality that Usenet is the past, not the present and
certainly not the future?



- Don Baccus, Portland OR <dhogaza@pacifier.com>
  Nature photos, on-line guides, Pacific Northwest
  Rare Bird Alert Service and other goodies at
  http://donb.photo.net.

Thu, 04 May 2000 21:02:24 -0700
Don Baccus <dhogaza@pacifier.com>
Re: ``..Advice For New Immigrants...
On Thu, 4 May 2000, Don Baccus wrote:

> At 12:50 AM 5/5/00 -0300, The Hermit Hacker wrote:
> 
> >What's wrong with being patient while I work with the Majordomo2 guys
> >towards getting the bug fixed?  Which I've applied tonight, so this
> >*should* no longer happen ... like our code has always been perfect?
> 
> OK, so we don't get posts in our mailbox like this, but don't our
> posts show up in the newsgroups?

That they do ... and they show up in an easily cullable web archive too
... actually, I'd personally be more worried abou the web archive then the
newsgroups *shrug*  That is permanent :)

> >and *before* we moved to majordomo2, and had proper restrict_post in
> >place, it was zero ... the gateway has been there for >1year now, its only
> >since going to majordomo2 that anyone has really noticed it ...
> 
> Why not face the reality that Usenet is the past, not the present and
> certainly not the future?

That is a matter of opinion, and you are most welcome to yours ... I still
use Usenet, as do several users that have been subscribing to the loophole
mailing list and posting bug reports through Usenet ...

Marc G. Fournier                   ICQ#7615664               IRC Nick: Scrappy
Systems Administrator @ hub.org 
primary: scrappy@hub.org           secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org 


Fri, 5 May 2000 01:11:42 -0300 (ADT)
The Hermit Hacker <scrappy@hub.org>
Re: ``..Advice For New Immigrants...
At 01:11 AM 5/5/00 -0300, The Hermit Hacker wrote:

>... actually, I'd personally be more worried abou the web archive then the
>newsgroups *shrug*  That is permanent :)

Real web forums, like ... say, our OpenACS effort, just to mention one of
very, very many ... hide e-mail addresses from web harvesters.

Our users don't view that as being a defect, AFIAK.

So, not only do contributors do so without being paid, but they have to
get spammed as punishment for being good hacker citizens?

Seems weird to me.  Mostly because there are other open source models
that don't so burden their contributors...

>> Why not face the reality that Usenet is the past, not the present and
>> certainly not the future?

>That is a matter of opinion, and you are most welcome to yours 

It's not really much of an opinion.  I mean ... just check the numbers.
Usenet vs. the web is like oral history vs. TV.

It was great, in its time.

>... I still
>use Usenet, as do several users that have been subscribing to the loophole
>mailing list and posting bug reports through Usenet ...

Several people get convenienced and the rest of us get spammed.

Gotta love it!

Hey, is the broken-for-two-months web archive up and running yet?

Not that I want to suggest you're living in the stone age, or anything
like that.  Perhaps the bronze age...

Is the goal to be professional, or not?  If the goal is to be professional,
then I (and others) shouldn't be opened to spam if I choose to post here
after having to register, etc.  If the goal is to be professional, the
website archives should work.

On and on.

We don't have these problems at OpenACS.org or AOLserver.com, and we're
brand new.




- Don Baccus, Portland OR <dhogaza@pacifier.com>
  Nature photos, on-line guides, Pacific Northwest
  Rare Bird Alert Service and other goodies at
  http://donb.photo.net.

Thu, 04 May 2000 21:23:39 -0700
Don Baccus <dhogaza@pacifier.com>
Re: ``..Advice For New Immigrants...
Don Baccus <dhogaza@pacifier.com> writes:
> Why not face the reality that Usenet is the past, not the present and
> certainly not the future?

Usenet is alive and well, thankyouverymuch ... but only at sites that
are taking fairly strong filtering measures to weed out the crapola.
Barring shoot-on-sight penalties for spammers, I think filtering is
the future for all variants of electronic communication :-(, so there's
not a lot of room to condemn Usenet for being ahead of the curve.

Meanwhile, back to our local reality rather than global speculation.
It appears that Marc is passing an unfiltered feed into our mail list.
He's asked for some time to fix the filtering problem, which seems
reasonable to me --- but I can afford to be forgiving because none of
that traffic is reaching my inbox anymore ;-).  If you've got strong
opinions about what you want to read or not read, I'd suggest learning
how to filter your email for yourself rather than relying on other
people's opinions of what's reasonable.

			regards, tom lane

Fri, 05 May 2000 01:49:41 -0400
Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
Re: ``..Advice For New Immigrants... 