Do we have any data on how many people download the partial tarballs
(-base, -opt, etc.)?  I have a feeling that more people are confused by
them than use them.

-- 
Peter Eisentraut   peter_e@gmx.net


Tue, 11 Nov 2003 19:44:06 +0100 (CET)
Peter Eisentraut <peter_e@gmx.net>
About the partial tarballs


On Tue, 11 Nov 2003, Peter Eisentraut wrote:

> Do we have any data on how many people download the partial tarballs
> (-base, -opt, etc.)?  I have a feeling that more people are confused by
> them than use them.

on ftp.postgresql.org itself, since June 4th:

2812 /var/spool/ftp/pub/source/v7.3.3/postgresql-7.3.3.tar.gz
1854 /var/spool/ftp/pub/source/v7.3.4/postgresql-7.3.4.tar.gz
 443 /var/spool/ftp/pub/source/v7.3.3/postgresql-base-7.3.3.tar.gz
 439 /var/spool/ftp/pub/source/v7.3.3/postgresql-docs-7.3.3.tar.gz
 402 /var/spool/ftp/pub/source/v7.2.4/postgresql-opt-7.2.4.tar.gz
 386 /var/spool/ftp/pub/source/v7.3.3/postgresql-opt-7.3.3.tar.gz
 384 /var/spool/ftp/pub/source/v7.2.4/postgresql-base-7.2.4.tar.gz
 289 /var/spool/ftp/pub/source/v7.3.3/postgresql-test-7.3.3.tar.gz
 267 /var/spool/ftp/pub/source/v7.3.2/postgresql-7.3.2.tar.gz
 246 /var/spool/ftp/pub/source/v7.3.4/postgresql-docs-7.3.4.tar.gz
 233 /var/spool/ftp/pub/source/v7.3.4/postgresql-base-7.3.4.tar.gz
 195 /var/spool/ftp/pub/source/v7.3.4/postgresql-opt-7.3.4.tar.gz
 177 /var/spool/ftp/pub/source/v7.3.4/postgresql-test-7.3.4.tar.gz
 168 /var/spool/ftp/pub/dev/postgresql-opt-snapshot.tar.gz
 166 /var/spool/ftp/pub/source/v7.2.2/postgresql-base-7.2.2.tar.gz
 165 /var/spool/ftp/pub/source/v7.2.2/postgresql-opt-7.2.2.tar.gz
 162 /var/spool/ftp/pub/dev/postgresql-test-snapshot.tar.gz
 151 /var/spool/ftp/pub/dev/postgresql-snapshot.tar.gz
 136 /var/spool/ftp/pub/dev/postgresql-docs-snapshot.tar.gz
 127 /var/spool/ftp/pub/source/v7.2.4/postgresql-7.2.4.tar.gz
 100 /var/spool/ftp/pub/source/v7.2.1/postgresql-7.2.1.tar.gz
  96 /var/spool/ftp/pub/dev/postgresql-base-snapshot.tar.gz
  67 /var/spool/ftp/pub/source/v7.2.3/postgresql-7.2.3.tar.gz
  48 /var/spool/ftp/pub/source/v7.2.1/postgresql-opt-7.2.1.tar.gz
  45 /var/spool/ftp/pub/source/v7.2.1/postgresql-docs-7.2.1.tar.gz
  45 /var/spool/ftp/pub/source/v7.2.1/postgresql-base-7.2.1.tar.gz
  41 /var/spool/ftp/pub/source/v7.1.3/postgresql-7.1.3.tar.gz
  36 /var/spool/ftp/pub/source/v7.3/postgresql-7.3.tar.gz
  35 /var/spool/ftp/pub/source/v7.4/postgresql-7.4beta1.tar.bz2
  31 /var/spool/ftp/pub/source/v7.4/postgresql-7.4beta1.tar.gz
  31 /var/spool/ftp/pub/source/v7.3.2/postgresql-base-7.3.2.tar.gz
  31 /var/spool/ftp/pub/source/v7.2.2/postgresql-7.2.2.tar.gz
  29 /var/spool/ftp/pub/source/v7.4/postgresql-7.4beta3.tar.gz
  28 /var/spool/ftp/pub/source/v7.4/postgresql-7.4beta4.tar.gz
  27 /var/spool/ftp/pub/source/v7.4/postgresql-7.4beta4.tar.bz2
  27 /var/spool/ftp/pub/source/v7.3.2/postgresql-docs-7.3.2.tar.gz
  27 /var/spool/ftp/pub/source/v7.3.1/postgresql-7.3.1.tar.gz
  22 /var/spool/ftp/pub/source/v7.4/postgresql-7.4beta2.tar.bz2
  21 /var/spool/ftp/pub/source/v7.4/postgresql-7.4beta3.tar.bz2
  21 /var/spool/ftp/pub/source/v7.2/postgresql-7.2.tar.gz
  20 /var/spool/ftp/pub/source/v7.4/postgresql-7.4beta2.tar.gz
  19 /var/spool/ftp/pub/source/v7.4/postgresql-7.4beta5.tar.bz2
  19 /var/spool/ftp/pub/source/v7.3.2/postgresql-test-7.3.2.tar.gz
  19 /var/spool/ftp/pub/source/v7.3.2/postgresql-opt-7.3.2.tar.gz
  18 /var/spool/ftp/pub/source/v7.4/postgresql-7.4beta5.tar.gz
  17 /var/spool/ftp/pub/source/v7.4/postgresql-docs-7.4beta1.tar.bz2
  16 /var/spool/ftp/pub/source/v7.4/postgresql-docs-7.4beta4.tar.gz
  15 /var/spool/ftp/pub/source/v7.4/postgresql-docs-7.4beta3.tar.gz
  15 /var/spool/ftp/pub/source/v7.1.3/postgresql-docs-7.1.3.tar.gz

Note that, in the case of FreeBSD ports, they download only base and opt:

PORTNAME?=      postgresql
PORTVERSION?=   7.3.4
PORTREVISION=   1
CATEGORIES?=    databases
MASTER_SITES=   ${MASTER_SITE_PGSQL}
MASTER_SITE_SUBDIR=     source/v${PORTVERSION}
DISTFILES=      postgresql-base-${PORTVERSION}${EXTRACT_SUFX} \
                postgresql-opt-${PORTVERSION}${EXTRACT_SUFX}

ignoring the rest ... which was the original intent of the split, to
reduce the amount that needs to be downloaded, as well as reduce what
needs to be re-downloaded on a failed download ...

Tue, 11 Nov 2003 15:03:57 -0400 (AST)
"Marc G. Fournier" <scrappy@postgresql.org>
Re: About the partial tarballs
Marc G. Fournier writes:

> > Do we have any data on how many people download the partial tarballs
> > (-base, -opt, etc.)?  I have a feeling that more people are confused by
> > them than use them.
>
> on ftp.postgresql.org itself, since June 4th:

Interesting.  Note that in most cases people download the -base tarball
less often than the other ones, at best just as often as the other ones.
This seems to indicate that people appear to want everything and they are
confused about what they need to download.

> Note that, in the case of FreeBSD ports, they download only base and opt:

They don't install the documentation???  How is that a good idea?

-- 
Peter Eisentraut   peter_e@gmx.net


Tue, 11 Nov 2003 20:29:36 +0100 (CET)
Peter Eisentraut <peter_e@gmx.net>
Re: About the partial tarballs


On Tue, 11 Nov 2003, Peter Eisentraut wrote:

> Marc G. Fournier writes:
>
> > > Do we have any data on how many people download the partial tarballs
> > > (-base, -opt, etc.)?  I have a feeling that more people are confused by
> > > them than use them.
> >
> > on ftp.postgresql.org itself, since June 4th:
>
> Interesting.  Note that in most cases people download the -base tarball
> less often than the other ones, at best just as often as the other ones.
> This seems to indicate that people appear to want everything and they are
> confused about what they need to download.

I think a good README file explaining this would be good ... again, where
packages are concerned, there are no questions ... but, explaining to
someone that if they need, say, just the psql command, they only need to
download -base and -opt, that same downloading ~3.5Meg worth of files that
they don't need ...

As for docs ... if someone wants to download the docs, but doesn't need
any of the source (ie. someone is using PostgreSQL off of a remote server,
but would like the docs local), having to download 11Meg to get 2.6Meg
worth of docs is quite excessive ...

 >
> > Note that, in the case of FreeBSD ports, they download only base and opt:
>
> They don't install the documentation???  How is that a good idea?

I never install documentation, I always go to http://www.postgresql.org
*shrug*

But, FreeBSD ports has:

svr1# ls -ld databases/postgresql-*
drwxr-xr-x  4 root  wheel  512 Nov  1 04:25 databases/postgresql-client
drwxr-xr-x  4 root  wheel  512 Sep 27 04:24 databases/postgresql-contrib
drwxr-xr-x  6 root  wheel  512 Jul 26 04:31 databases/postgresql-devel
drwxr-xr-x  4 root  wheel  512 Jul 26 04:31 databases/postgresql-docs
drwxr-xr-x  6 root  wheel  512 Jul 26 04:31 databases/postgresql-jdbc
drwxr-xr-x  4 root  wheel  512 Jul 26 04:31 databases/postgresql-libpq++
drwxr-xr-x  4 root  wheel  512 Jul 26 04:31 databases/postgresql-libpqxx
drwxr-xr-x  4 root  wheel  512 Jul 26 04:31 databases/postgresql-odbc
drwxr-xr-x  6 root  wheel  512 Jul 26 04:31 databases/postgresql-plruby
drwxr-xr-x  4 root  wheel  512 Jul 26 04:31 databases/postgresql-pltcl
drwxr-xr-x  6 root  wheel  512 Jul 26 04:31 databases/postgresql-tcltk

databases/postgresql-docs just downloads and installs the docs ...

the other postgresql-* ports, where those packages are still part of the
main tar ball, only need base/opt to build, and so that's all it downloads
...



Tue, 11 Nov 2003 15:49:45 -0400 (AST)
"Marc G. Fournier" <scrappy@postgresql.org>
Re: About the partial tarballs
On Tue, 2003-11-11 at 14:29, Peter Eisentraut wrote:
> Marc G. Fournier writes:
> 
> > > Do we have any data on how many people download the partial tarballs
> > > (-base, -opt, etc.)?  I have a feeling that more people are confused by
> > > them than use them.
> >
> > on ftp.postgresql.org itself, since June 4th:
> 
> Interesting.  Note that in most cases people download the -base tarball
> less often than the other ones, at best just as often as the other ones.
> This seems to indicate that people appear to want everything and they are
> confused about what they need to download.
> 
> > Note that, in the case of FreeBSD ports, they download only base and opt:
> 
> They don't install the documentation???  How is that a good idea?

FreeBSD (Sean?) split PostgreSQL into several ports so you can pick only
the parts (or release) you want. There is a specific -docs port.

postgresql-client       postgresql-jdbc         postgresql-plruby      
postgresql72
postgresql-contrib      postgresql-libpq++      postgresql-pltcl       
postgresql_autodoc
postgresql-devel        postgresql-libpqxx      postgresql-tcltk
postgresql-docs         postgresql-odbc         postgresql7



Tue, 11 Nov 2003 14:57:37 -0500
Rod Taylor <pg@rbt.ca>
Re: About the partial tarballs
On 11 Nov 2003, at 20:44, Peter Eisentraut wrote:

> Do we have any data on how many people download the partial tarballs
> (-base, -opt, etc.)?  I have a feeling that more people are confused by
> them than use them.

Even if they weren't useful for anything else, I think there's value in 
the
developers having to consider what is optional and what is not. This 
need
for constant review probably reduces the chance of bloat, over time even
in the full tarball.

I agree that the partial tarballs can confuse an ftp user, though. I 
think
a good solution to this would be to put them one level deeper, into a
subfolder. The full tarball would then be the only thing a casual
user would encounter, but the source-based port systems could still
benefit from the partial tarballs.

mk


Wed, 12 Nov 2003 00:30:13 +0200
Marko Karppinen <marko@karppinen.fi>
Re: About the partial tarballs


On Wed, 12 Nov 2003, Marko Karppinen wrote:

> I agree that the partial tarballs can confuse an ftp user, though. I
> think a good solution to this would be to put them one level deeper,
> into a subfolder. The full tarball would then be the only thing a casual
> user would encounter, but the source-based port systems could still
> benefit from the partial tarballs.

I don't agree, but if you can suggest improved working to:

ftp://ftp.postgresql.org/pub/README.dist-split

to reduce the confusion, that would be great.  I've just symlink'd it into
the source directories as the .message, so that its displays when you
enter the directory ...

Tue, 11 Nov 2003 18:48:37 -0400 (AST)
"Marc G. Fournier" <scrappy@postgresql.org>
Re: About the partial tarballs

On Tue, 11 Nov 2003, Marc G. Fournier wrote:
> ftp://ftp.postgresql.org/pub/README.dist-split
> 
> to reduce the confusion, that would be great.  I've just symlink'd it into
> the source directories as the .message, so that its displays when you
> enter the directory ...

Does anyone actually read those messages?

Similar sort of question to the 'Does anyone read any of those popup boxes
produced by everything in Windows before hitting "OK"?' one.


-- 
Nigel J. Andrews


Tue, 11 Nov 2003 23:58:17 +0000 (GMT)
"Nigel J. Andrews" <nandrews@investsystems.co.uk>
Re: About the partial tarballs


On Tue, 11 Nov 2003, Nigel J. Andrews wrote:

>
> On Tue, 11 Nov 2003, Marc G. Fournier wrote:
> > ftp://ftp.postgresql.org/pub/README.dist-split
> >
> > to reduce the confusion, that would be great.  I've just symlink'd it into
> > the source directories as the .message, so that its displays when you
> > enter the directory ...
>
> Does anyone actually read those messages?
>
> Similar sort of question to the 'Does anyone read any of those popup boxes
> produced by everything in Windows before hitting "OK"?' one.

You don't read those popup boxes?  I don't read the 15 page license
agreements, but the short popup boxes, I do

Tue, 11 Nov 2003 21:33:39 -0400 (AST)
"Marc G. Fournier" <scrappy@postgresql.org>
Re: About the partial tarballs
> Even if they weren't useful for anything else, I think there's value in the
> developers having to consider what is optional and what is not. This need
> for constant review probably reduces the chance of bloat, over time even
> in the full tarball.

How about dropping the partial tarballs and using the space savings to 
distribute a .tar.bz2 archive as well.

Chris



Wed, 12 Nov 2003 11:29:52 +0800
Christopher Kings-Lynne <chriskl@familyhealth.com.au>
Re: About the partial tarballs


On Wed, 12 Nov 2003, Christopher Kings-Lynne wrote:

> > Even if they weren't useful for anything else, I think there's value in the
> > developers having to consider what is optional and what is not. This need
> > for constant review probably reduces the chance of bloat, over time even
> > in the full tarball.
>
> How about dropping the partial tarballs and using the space savings to
> distribute a .tar.bz2 archive as well.

We already do ... started with beta1 of 7.4 ...



Wed, 12 Nov 2003 00:25:55 -0400 (AST)
"Marc G. Fournier" <scrappy@postgresql.org>
Re: About the partial tarballs