On Sun, Oct 12, 2003 at 03:01:39PM +0200, Peter Eisentraut wrote:
> First, I think collecting addresses from users is something that an
> open-source project should never do.  It's what makes them stand out from
> packages with annoying license requirements.

Couldn't agree more.

> Third, the method is flawed, because only users that install source
> packages manually are invited to register.  I believe that the majority of
> users use prepackaged versions.

Even being a developer does not prevent me from using prepackaged
version for some or even most needs I have. So, yes, I agree completely
here too.

> Fourth, the registration is run not by the project but by a commercial
> company.  That seems inappropriate for all the reasons you can imagine.

And another "me too". I'd say let's remove it unless someone has some
good reasoning.

Michael
-- 
Michael Meskes
Email: Michael at Fam-Meskes dot De
ICQ: 179140304, AIM/Yahoo: michaelmeskes, Jabber: meskes@jabber.org
Go SF 49ers! Go Rhein Fire! Use Debian GNU/Linux! Use PostgreSQL!

Sun, 12 Oct 2003 13:54:32 +0200
Michael Meskes <meskes@postgresql.org>
Re: http://www.pgsql.com/register/submit.php
I've always been uneasy about the notice at the end of the installation
process that asks the user to register at

http://www.pgsql.com/register/submit.php

Now some users have also complained to me about that, so I'm wondering
what others think about it.

First, I think collecting addresses from users is something that an
open-source project should never do.  It's what makes them stand out from
packages with annoying license requirements.

Second, do we really get anything useful out of those registrations?
Maybe in the early days, anyone who was insane enough to try PostgreSQL
was worth rejoicing about, but now I think we get a pretty good overview
over the uses in other ways.

Third, the method is flawed, because only users that install source
packages manually are invited to register.  I believe that the majority of
users use prepackaged versions.

Fourth, the registration is run not by the project but by a commercial
company.  That seems inappropriate for all the reasons you can imagine.

Comments?

-- 
Peter Eisentraut   peter_e@gmx.net


Sun, 12 Oct 2003 15:01:39 +0200 (CEST)
Peter Eisentraut <peter_e@gmx.net>
http://www.pgsql.com/register/submit.php
Peter Eisentraut <peter_e@gmx.net> writes:
> I've always been uneasy about the notice at the end of the installation
> process that asks the user to register at
> http://www.pgsql.com/register/submit.php

There was discussion of rewording that message some time ago, but
nothing happened.  (I think Vince volunteered to prepare a new draft,
and then disappeared...)

I agree that there's no need to ask people to register.  I think it'd
be okay to have a message that suggests visiting www.postgresql.org.

Want to propose some new text?

			regards, tom lane

Sun, 12 Oct 2003 12:55:54 -0400
Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
Re: http://www.pgsql.com/register/submit.php 

On Sun, 12 Oct 2003, Peter Eisentraut wrote:

> Fourth, the registration is run not by the project but by a commercial
> company.  That seems inappropriate for all the reasons you can imagine.

To be honest, I don't know why it was every put on pgsq.com in the first
place, and think the whole thing should be re-written ... the original
purpose was to get an idea of who was using what version, as well as to
get a feel for the size of dataases ppl are using ... but, there is no way
of changing ones data after the fact, so, of course, when you upgrade you
can't reflect that ...

Personally, I think the work on case studies going on right now are of
more value ... at they provide more info, and more an understanding of why
...



Sun, 12 Oct 2003 16:03:02 -0300 (ADT)
"Marc G. Fournier" <scrappy@postgresql.org>
Re: http://www.pgsql.com/register/submit.php
Tom Lane writes:

> I agree that there's no need to ask people to register.  I think it'd
> be okay to have a message that suggests visiting www.postgresql.org.

The text already suggests www.postgresql.org, so there's nothing to do
besides removing the register bit, if we agree to do so.

However, I think the message is a bit pointless altogether.  First, only
those that install from source see it, so it's not the place to
communicate vital information.  Second, how did they ever get the source
code if not via www.postgresql.org?  Third, that same piece of information
is contained in README and INSTALL, so it's impossible to miss.  So the
only group of people we could target with this text is those that 1)
install random source packages that they got from somewhere they don't
remember, 2) don't read README and INSTALL files even if they have
questions, and 3) don't know how to use a search engine, if they really
have trouble finding us.

-- 
Peter Eisentraut   peter_e@gmx.net


Mon, 13 Oct 2003 00:12:19 +0200 (CEST)
Peter Eisentraut <peter_e@gmx.net>
Re: http://www.pgsql.com/register/submit.php 
Peter Eisentraut <peter_e@gmx.net> writes:
> However, I think the message is a bit pointless altogether.

You have a point.  Anyone against ripping it out entirely?  If so,
what needs to be said in this message?

			regards, tom lane

Mon, 13 Oct 2003 00:23:29 -0400
Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
Re: http://www.pgsql.com/register/submit.php 
On Mon, 2003-10-13 at 00:23, Tom Lane wrote:
> Peter Eisentraut <peter_e@gmx.net> writes:
> > However, I think the message is a bit pointless altogether.
> 
> You have a point.  Anyone against ripping it out entirely?  If so,
> what needs to be said in this message?
> 

Someone could have downloaded the package from sourceforge/freshmeat, so
I don't think it hurts to have a pointer to postgresql.org.  What might
be better than a link for the submit page would just be a blurb
mentioning we're always looking for new case studies from folks who are
using postgresql, and perhaps point them some place for that. What I'd
like to see added to the message is a reminder to run initdb...

Robert Treat 
-- 
Build A Brighter Lamp :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL


13 Oct 2003 08:45:49 -0400
Robert Treat <xzilla@users.sourceforge.net>
Re: http://www.pgsql.com/register/submit.php
Robert Treat writes:

> Someone could have downloaded the package from sourceforge/freshmeat, so
> I don't think it hurts to have a pointer to postgresql.org.

Those two places already have prominent links to the home page.

> What might
> be better than a link for the submit page would just be a blurb
> mentioning we're always looking for new case studies from folks who are
> using postgresql, and perhaps point them some place for that.

See my last post: This is not the place to print any project-related
messages.  You're not going to get a representative audience.

> What I'd
> like to see added to the message is a reminder to run initdb...

Anyone who is completely clueless about PostgreSQL will have to read
INSTALL anyway, which gives more complete information.  It's a bit more
involved than just entering "initdb": you need to set up users and
directory permissions.  I don't think duplicating that information would
be useful.

-- 
Peter Eisentraut   peter_e@gmx.net


Mon, 13 Oct 2003 15:14:38 +0200 (CEST)
Peter Eisentraut <peter_e@gmx.net>
Re: http://www.pgsql.com/register/submit.php
Le Lundi 13 Octobre 2003 14:45, Robert Treat a écrit :
> Someone could have downloaded the package from sourceforge/freshmeat, so
> I don't think it hurts to have a pointer to postgresql.org.  What might
> be better than a link for the submit page would just be a blurb
> mentioning we're always looking for new case studies from folks who are
> using postgresql, and perhaps point them some place for that. What I'd
> like to see added to the message is a reminder to run initdb...

In France, according to the "Loi informatique et liberté", users have a right 
to access their personal data. As a result, every web form must display a 
warning which reminds users that they can access their personal data.

This is not a potential problem for PostgreSQL.inc, but for Linux vendors who 
release PostgreSQL (RedHat, Mandrake, etc...) in France. The fine can be 
quite large. Also, a judge may stop immediately the release of products 
including PostgreSQL.

Cheers, Jean-Michel


Mon, 13 Oct 2003 15:20:21 +0200
Jean-Michel POURE <jm@poure.com>
Re: http://www.pgsql.com/register/submit.php
Tom Lane wrote:
> Peter Eisentraut <peter_e@gmx.net> writes:
> > However, I think the message is a bit pointless altogether.
> 
> You have a point.  Anyone against ripping it out entirely?  If so,
> what needs to be said in this message?

Let's remove it.

-- 
  Bruce Momjian                        |  http://candle.pha.pa.us
  pgman@candle.pha.pa.us               |  (610) 359-1001
  +  If your life is a hard drive,     |  13 Roberts Road
  +  Christ can be your backup.        |  Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073

Mon, 13 Oct 2003 10:39:04 -0400 (EDT)
Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>
Re: http://www.pgsql.com/register/submit.php
Jean-Michel POURE kirjutas E, 13.10.2003 kell 16:20:
> Le Lundi 13 Octobre 2003 14:45, Robert Treat a écrit :
> > Someone could have downloaded the package from sourceforge/freshmeat, so
> > I don't think it hurts to have a pointer to postgresql.org.  What might
> > be better than a link for the submit page would just be a blurb
> > mentioning we're always looking for new case studies from folks who are
> > using postgresql, and perhaps point them some place for that. What I'd
> > like to see added to the message is a reminder to run initdb...
> 
> In France, according to the "Loi informatique et liberté", users have a right 
> to access their personal data. As a result, every web form must display a 
> warning which reminds users that they can access their personal data.

Even if no personal data is entered or queried ?

> This is not a potential problem for PostgreSQL.inc, but for Linux vendors who 
> release PostgreSQL (RedHat, Mandrake, etc...) in France. The fine can be 
> quite large. Also, a judge may stop immediately the release of products 
> including PostgreSQL.

Do we need special NOTICE for French users telling them "In case you
have entered some personal data you can access it by doing a SELECT
query" after each INSERT/UPDATE to be legally sound in France ?

This could then be automatically enabled by LC_ALL=fr .

----------------
Hannu


Mon, 13 Oct 2003 20:00:15 +0300
Hannu Krosing <hannu@tm.ee>
Re: http://www.pgsql.com/register/submit.php
Bruce Momjian writes:

> Let's remove it.

It's gone.

-- 
Peter Eisentraut   peter_e@gmx.net


Mon, 13 Oct 2003 23:40:11 +0200 (CEST)
Peter Eisentraut <peter_e@gmx.net>
Re: http://www.pgsql.com/register/submit.php