Bruce Momjian wrote:
> Yes, it was vague.  The question is now that we are a month away, do
we
> want to target June 1, mid-June, or July 1.

If I may humbly chime in here...there currently is no binary packing for
the win32 port.  Magnus is currently working on an installer/service
manager (dubbed 'longer term' on the status page) that would be nice to
see make it in before the feature freeze.  Based on the current rate of
development, finishing this and various other sundry issues (even
allowing for corrections within the beta period) within a month involves
a fair degree of optimism.  In short, speaking strictly from a win32
perspective, a June 1 date will probably be missed.

Merlin

Thu, 29 Apr 2004 14:18:12 -0400
"Merlin Moncure" <merlin.moncure@rcsonline.com>
Re: Call for 7.5 feature completion
Merlin Moncure wrote:
> Bruce Momjian wrote:
> > Yes, it was vague.  The question is now that we are a month away, do
> we
> > want to target June 1, mid-June, or July 1.
> 
> If I may humbly chime in here...there currently is no binary packing for
> the win32 port.  Magnus is currently working on an installer/service
> manager (dubbed 'longer term' on the status page) that would be nice to
> see make it in before the feature freeze.  Based on the current rate of
> development, finishing this and various other sundry issues (even
> allowing for corrections within the beta period) within a month involves
> a fair degree of optimism.  In short, speaking strictly from a win32
> perspective, a June 1 date will probably be missed.

Well, if Win32 doesn't complete by June 1, do we still do the feature
freeze?  I don't want to be adding features after the freeze, that is
for sure.  When we have done that in the past, it has caused problems
because some stuff gets in to make the system unstable, but other stuff
gets left out.

As I remember, we decided that we should not make decisions to extend
the feature freeze date just before the freeze date because it causes
people to stop doing development, then we extend.  I think we should go
another week or two then decide if we should stay to June 1, and if we
don't, we should schedule for July 1.  Extending it by a week at a time,
and almost before the deadline, has caused considerable waste of time in
the past.

-- 
  Bruce Momjian                        |  http://candle.pha.pa.us
  pgman@candle.pha.pa.us               |  (610) 359-1001
  +  If your life is a hard drive,     |  13 Roberts Road
  +  Christ can be your backup.        |  Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073

Thu, 29 Apr 2004 14:51:48 -0400 (EDT)
Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>
Re: Call for 7.5 feature completion
"Merlin Moncure" <merlin.moncure@rcsonline.com> writes:
> Bruce Momjian wrote:
>> Yes, it was vague.  The question is now that we are a month away, do
>> we want to target June 1, mid-June, or July 1.

> ...  In short, speaking strictly from a win32
> perspective, a June 1 date will probably be missed.

Fair enough.  Do you feel comfortable with either of the other dates?

The point of this discussion is not so much to crack the whip as to get
people's schedule expectations aligned.  If we set a date X, those who
can't possibly meet it will know to plan on getting into a later release
instead, and those who can meet it if they hustle will know to start
hustling.  But we need to set a date.  It's unfair to other parts of the
project to say "oh, we'll wait till Win32 is ready and then give two
weeks notice".

			regards, tom lane

Thu, 29 Apr 2004 15:27:17 -0400
Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
Re: Call for 7.5 feature completion 
Bruce Momjian wrote:
> Well, if Win32 doesn't complete by June 1, do we still do the feature
> freeze?  I don't want to be adding features after the freeze, that is
> for sure.  When we have done that in the past, it has caused problems
> because some stuff gets in to make the system unstable, but other stuff
> gets left out.


It seams as though the win32 port is driving the release schedule, so 
instead of picking June 1 out of the air, how about getting an estimated 
time for completion from them, or more specifically a date by which they 
should have all the major features done?

I know it's a chicken and egg problem, do we set a date for developers 
to shoot for, or do shoot for specific features and choose a date from 
there.  I think there can no hard and fast rule on this, it depends on 
the feature and the desire to put it in place.

Matthew


Thu, 29 Apr 2004 15:32:03 -0400
"Matthew T. O'Connor" <matthew@zeut.net>
Re: Call for 7.5 feature completion
Tom Lane wrote:
> "Merlin Moncure" <merlin.moncure@rcsonline.com> writes:
> > Bruce Momjian wrote:
> >> Yes, it was vague.  The question is now that we are a month away, do
> >> we want to target June 1, mid-June, or July 1.
> 
> > ...  In short, speaking strictly from a win32
> > perspective, a June 1 date will probably be missed.
> 
> Fair enough.  Do you feel comfortable with either of the other dates?
> 
> The point of this discussion is not so much to crack the whip as to get
> people's schedule expectations aligned.  If we set a date X, those who
> can't possibly meet it will know to plan on getting into a later release
> instead, and those who can meet it if they hustle will know to start
> hustling.  But we need to set a date.  It's unfair to other parts of the
> project to say "oh, we'll wait till Win32 is ready and then give two
> weeks notice".

Well, looking at Win32, we are making steady progress, but it is
uncertain if we will make June 1, and we might not know even on May 15
if we will make that date, and if we don't know we have to either stick
to June 1 and ignore Win32 or extend to July 1.  We can't decide on May
29 because then all the other features are left hanging to see what
happens with Win32.

I wonder if we should just pick July 1 because there is good expectation
based on current progress that Win32 will be done by June 15, which
would be the next cuttoff date.  Of course we can wait until May 15 and
then decide.

-- 
  Bruce Momjian                        |  http://candle.pha.pa.us
  pgman@candle.pha.pa.us               |  (610) 359-1001
  +  If your life is a hard drive,     |  13 Roberts Road
  +  Christ can be your backup.        |  Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073

Thu, 29 Apr 2004 15:37:51 -0400 (EDT)
Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>
Re: Call for 7.5 feature completion
Matthew T. O'Connor wrote:
> Bruce Momjian wrote:
> > Well, if Win32 doesn't complete by June 1, do we still do the feature
> > freeze?  I don't want to be adding features after the freeze, that is
> > for sure.  When we have done that in the past, it has caused problems
> > because some stuff gets in to make the system unstable, but other stuff
> > gets left out.
> 
> 
> It seams as though the win32 port is driving the release schedule, so 
> instead of picking June 1 out of the air, how about getting an estimated 
> time for completion from them, or more specifically a date by which they 
> should have all the major features done?

I just posted on this.  I am putting timezone in today, but we have
fsync to do, and some other stuff.  Might be done in two weeks, but most
likely it will take 4.

-- 
  Bruce Momjian                        |  http://candle.pha.pa.us
  pgman@candle.pha.pa.us               |  (610) 359-1001
  +  If your life is a hard drive,     |  13 Roberts Road
  +  Christ can be your backup.        |  Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073

Thu, 29 Apr 2004 15:39:44 -0400 (EDT)
Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>
Re: Call for 7.5 feature completion
On Thu, 29 Apr 2004, Bruce Momjian wrote:

> Merlin Moncure wrote:
> > Bruce Momjian wrote:
> > > Yes, it was vague.  The question is now that we are a month away, do
> > we
> > > want to target June 1, mid-June, or July 1.
> >
> > If I may humbly chime in here...there currently is no binary packing for
> > the win32 port.  Magnus is currently working on an installer/service
> > manager (dubbed 'longer term' on the status page) that would be nice to
> > see make it in before the feature freeze.  Based on the current rate of
> > development, finishing this and various other sundry issues (even
> > allowing for corrections within the beta period) within a month involves
> > a fair degree of optimism.  In short, speaking strictly from a win32
> > perspective, a June 1 date will probably be missed.
>
> Well, if Win32 doesn't complete by June 1, do we still do the feature
> freeze?  I don't want to be adding features after the freeze, that is
> for sure.  When we have done that in the past, it has caused problems
> because some stuff gets in to make the system unstable, but other stuff
> gets left out.

That is something that should be discussed a couple of days before June
1st, when we have a clearer idea of just how far off Win32 will be ...
right now, if Win32 is *that* far off the June 1st mark, I'd say
definitely to a feature freeze, as much as I'd like to see the Win32
features in ...

----
Marc G. Fournier           Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org)
Email: scrappy@hub.org           Yahoo!: yscrappy              ICQ: 7615664

Thu, 29 Apr 2004 16:50:14 -0300 (ADT)
"Marc G. Fournier" <scrappy@postgresql.org>
Re: Call for 7.5 feature completion
On Thu, 29 Apr 2004, Matthew T. O'Connor wrote:

> I know it's a chicken and egg problem, do we set a date for developers
> to shoot for, or do shoot for specific features and choose a date from
> there.  I think there can no hard and fast rule on this, it depends on
> the feature and the desire to put it in place.

If we set the date based on a specific featuer, v7.4 would still be in
development ...

----
Marc G. Fournier           Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org)
Email: scrappy@hub.org           Yahoo!: yscrappy              ICQ: 7615664

Thu, 29 Apr 2004 16:51:13 -0300 (ADT)
"Marc G. Fournier" <scrappy@postgresql.org>
Re: Call for 7.5 feature completion
On Thu, 29 Apr 2004, Bruce Momjian wrote:

> I wonder if we should just pick July 1 because there is good expectation
> based on current progress that Win32 will be done by June 15, which
> would be the next cuttoff date.  Of course we can wait until May 15 and
> then decide.

Start of summer holidays, when most ppl will want to be away?


----
Marc G. Fournier           Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org)
Email: scrappy@hub.org           Yahoo!: yscrappy              ICQ: 7615664

Thu, 29 Apr 2004 17:06:49 -0300 (ADT)
"Marc G. Fournier" <scrappy@postgresql.org>
Re: Call for 7.5 feature completion
On Thu, 2004-04-29 at 20:50, Marc G. Fournier wrote:
> On Thu, 29 Apr 2004, Bruce Momjian wrote:
> 
> > Merlin Moncure wrote:
> > > Bruce Momjian wrote:
> > > > Yes, it was vague.  The question is now that we are a month away, do
> > > we
> > > > want to target June 1, mid-June, or July 1.
> > >
> > > If I may humbly chime in here...there currently is no binary packing for
> > > the win32 port.  Magnus is currently working on an installer/service
> > > manager (dubbed 'longer term' on the status page) that would be nice to
> > > see make it in before the feature freeze.  Based on the current rate of
> > > development, finishing this and various other sundry issues (even
> > > allowing for corrections within the beta period) within a month involves
> > > a fair degree of optimism.  In short, speaking strictly from a win32
> > > perspective, a June 1 date will probably be missed.
> >
> > Well, if Win32 doesn't complete by June 1, do we still do the feature
> > freeze?  I don't want to be adding features after the freeze, that is
> > for sure.  When we have done that in the past, it has caused problems
> > because some stuff gets in to make the system unstable, but other stuff
> > gets left out.
> 
> That is something that should be discussed a couple of days before June
> 1st, when we have a clearer idea of just how far off Win32 will be ...
> right now, if Win32 is *that* far off the June 1st mark, I'd say
> definitely to a feature freeze, as much as I'd like to see the Win32
> features in ...

Completely agree - I've been working to that timescale since March.

This is probably the determining factor as to whether the release number
is 7.5 or 8.0?

What I would add is: if PITR and Win32 do make it into the release, I
would strongly urge for an extended beta period. It would not prove good
press if 100,000 new Windows users tripped over on various issues, nor
even 1 press-worthy user was unable to recover correctly.

Best Regards, Simon Riggs


Thu, 29 Apr 2004 22:10:29 +0100
Simon Riggs <simon@2ndquadrant.com>
Re: Call for 7.5 feature completion
On Thu, 29 Apr 2004, Simon Riggs wrote:

> What I would add is: if PITR and Win32 do make it into the release, I
> would strongly urge for an extended beta period. It would not prove good
> press if 100,000 new Windows users tripped over on various issues, nor
> even 1 press-worthy user was unable to recover correctly.

Granted ... our beta periods always tend to be as long as required to be
confident of stability ...

----
Marc G. Fournier           Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org)
Email: scrappy@hub.org           Yahoo!: yscrappy              ICQ: 7615664

Thu, 29 Apr 2004 18:26:38 -0300 (ADT)
"Marc G. Fournier" <scrappy@postgresql.org>
Re: Call for 7.5 feature completion
Marc G. Fournier wrote:

>On Thu, 29 Apr 2004, Matthew T. O'Connor wrote:
>  
>
>>I know it's a chicken and egg problem, do we set a date for developers
>>to shoot for, or do shoot for specific features and choose a date from
>>there.  I think there can no hard and fast rule on this, it depends on
>>the feature and the desire to put it in place.
>>    
>>
>
>If we set the date based on a specific featuer, v7.4 would still be in
>development ...
>
>  
>

And if we always set deadlines independent of the required development 
time, then we may never get a win32 port or any other major feature that 
takes a little more time and attention.



Fri, 30 Apr 2004 00:31:45 -0400
"Matthew T. O'Connor" <matthew@zeut.net>
Re: Call for 7.5 feature completion
On Fri, 30 Apr 2004, Matthew T. O'Connor wrote:

> And if we always set deadlines independent of the required development
> time, then we may never get a win32 port or any other major feature that
> takes a little more time and attention.

Actually, that one doesn't hold ... it just means that we need to mature
our development environments to match the larger projects that need to
happen ... we are using CVS, there is nothing that stops a side-branch
being started, like we did with the Win32 stuff and then merging it back
up when the feature is ready ..

----
Marc G. Fournier           Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org)
Email: scrappy@hub.org           Yahoo!: yscrappy              ICQ: 7615664

Fri, 30 Apr 2004 01:58:21 -0300 (ADT)
"Marc G. Fournier" <scrappy@postgresql.org>
Re: Call for 7.5 feature completion