On Tuesday 30 April 2002 02:36 am, Christopher Kings-Lynne wrote:
> > We have been very fortunate to have avoided such problems since we
> > started six years ago, and I hope it never happens.

> There sure are a lot of arguments in the hackers list tho :)  I do wish
> people would be a little less 'ad hominem' in their argument styles,
> however.

Well, Chris, having been a Usenet user for over ten years (and a C-News admin 
for the first three of that), I've seen 'discussions' that were really ad 
hominem.  I've seen stuff that wouldn't even be found on slashdot.  Visit the 
old archives on google of alt.flame.  Or news.groups.  Or even the civil 
news.admin.... :-)

This group is far and away the most civil public development group I have ever 
seen.  Really.  No joke.

> It would be an interesting thing to consider what would happen to the
> Postgres project if Tom left one day...

Oooohhhh, don't give me nightmares!  Tom is the original 'Bugzilla' in my 
book.  But it's still educational to se how he got started, and how recent 
that really was.

Of course, PostgreSQL existed before he came in, and PostgreSQL would exist 
afterwards -- that is, after all, the beauty of free software.
-- 
Lamar Owen
WGCR Internet Radio
1 Peter 4:11

Mon, 29 Apr 2002 23:25:30 +0000
Lamar Owen <lamar.owen@wgcr.org>
Re: Civility of core/hackers group
Here is the resignation letter from Jordan Hubbard, long time FreeBSD
core member.  The interesting part is where he explains that being in
the core/hackers group isn't fun anymore:

	http://daily.daemonnews.org/view_story.php3?story_id=2837

FreeBSD is certainly a larger project, so I don't know how relevant it
is to our group, but I do think it is important to recognize how easily
a group can slip into a unhealthy situation.  The killer line is:

  ...core still feels too much like the pre-WWII Polish Parliament
  sometimes, where we're fully capable of arguing some issue right up to
  the point where tanks are rolling through the front door and rendering
  the whole debate somewhat moot.

We have been very fortunate to have avoided such problems since we
started six years ago, and I hope it never happens.  

For those curious what the PostgreSQL core group discusses behind closed
doors -- basically nothing.  I don't think we have had any meaningful
discussion for many months, so it is not like things are being debated
in core that you aren't hearing about;  nothing is happening in core
because there no conflicts.

-- 
  Bruce Momjian                        |  http://candle.pha.pa.us
  pgman@candle.pha.pa.us               |  (610) 853-3000
  +  If your life is a hard drive,     |  830 Blythe Avenue
  +  Christ can be your backup.        |  Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026

Mon, 29 Apr 2002 21:50:19 -0400 (EDT)
Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>
Civility of core/hackers group
> We have been very fortunate to have avoided such problems since we
> started six years ago, and I hope it never happens.

There sure are a lot of arguments in the hackers list tho :)  I do wish
people would be a little less 'ad hominem' in their argument styles,
however.

It would be an interesting thing to consider what would happen to the
Postgres project if Tom left one day...

Chris


Tue, 30 Apr 2002 10:36:57 +0800
"Christopher Kings-Lynne" <chriskl@familyhealth.com.au>
Re: Civility of core/hackers group
Christopher Kings-Lynne wrote:
> > We have been very fortunate to have avoided such problems since we
> > started six years ago, and I hope it never happens.
> 
> There sure are a lot of arguments in the hackers list tho :)  I do wish
> people would be a little less 'ad hominem' in their argument styles,
> however.

Yes, things do get a little testy sometimes, and it does worry me, but
it seems to blow over quickly.

-- 
  Bruce Momjian                        |  http://candle.pha.pa.us
  pgman@candle.pha.pa.us               |  (610) 853-3000
  +  If your life is a hard drive,     |  830 Blythe Avenue
  +  Christ can be your backup.        |  Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026

Mon, 29 Apr 2002 22:38:21 -0400 (EDT)
Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>
Re: Civility of core/hackers group
Wrote a rather long message first time through.  Anyway, basic problem
is the major tickmarks on the next release.

SMPng, KSEs, and various security overhauls are touching many portions
of the sourcecode in a single shot.  Normal development since the
project started has been fairly isolated.  So theres a bit of a
headache with people committing where they normally wouldn't, but
waiting for due process could take forever (commits across 4 or 5
different maintainers sections).  So, after the big commits, the
maintainers do bug triage.

All in all, it's working rather well.  A ton of progress has been made
and v5 release will be rather nice.

It'd be kinda like PostgreSQL implementing a fully object based
storage mechanism and interface, going threaded, and replacing node
trees with something else for v7.3.  Once you start one, might as well
do the others since you hit most of the code anyway.  With 3 or 4
people doing that it can be done.  Getting 100+ comitters (not to
mention those sending in patches) to work along side that mess and you
can see why Jordan is tired of baby sitting.

Can't blame him.  I think he had the most fun when he was simply
coming up with brilliant ideas like the ports tree.  I still think he
has a few ideas left.  Hopefully this will allow him the time to
implement -- probably on Darwin, but if it's good it'll float to <name
project here> shortly after.
--
Rod
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruce Momjian" <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>
To: "PostgreSQL-development" <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
Sent: Monday, April 29, 2002 9:50 PM
Subject: [HACKERS] Civility of core/hackers group


> Here is the resignation letter from Jordan Hubbard, long time
FreeBSD
> core member.  The interesting part is where he explains that being
in
> the core/hackers group isn't fun anymore:
>
> http://daily.daemonnews.org/view_story.php3?story_id=2837
>
> FreeBSD is certainly a larger project, so I don't know how relevant
it
> is to our group, but I do think it is important to recognize how
easily
> a group can slip into a unhealthy situation.  The killer line is:
>
>   ...core still feels too much like the pre-WWII Polish Parliament
>   sometimes, where we're fully capable of arguing some issue right
up to
>   the point where tanks are rolling through the front door and
rendering
>   the whole debate somewhat moot.
>
> We have been very fortunate to have avoided such problems since we
> started six years ago, and I hope it never happens.
>
> For those curious what the PostgreSQL core group discusses behind
closed
> doors -- basically nothing.  I don't think we have had any
meaningful
> discussion for many months, so it is not like things are being
debated
> in core that you aren't hearing about;  nothing is happening in core
> because there no conflicts.
>
> --
>   Bruce Momjian                        |  http://candle.pha.pa.us
>   pgman@candle.pha.pa.us               |  (610) 853-3000
>   +  If your life is a hard drive,     |  830 Blythe Avenue
>   +  Christ can be your backup.        |  Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania
19026
>
> ---------------------------(end of
broadcast)---------------------------
> TIP 1: subscribe and unsubscribe commands go to
majordomo@postgresql.org
>


Mon, 29 Apr 2002 22:38:34 -0400
"Rod Taylor" <rbt@zort.ca>
Re: Civility of core/hackers group
> > There sure are a lot of arguments in the hackers list tho :)  I do
wish
> > people would be a little less 'ad hominem' in their argument
styles,
> > however.
>
> Yes, things do get a little testy sometimes, and it does worry me,
but
> it seems to blow over quickly.

Bah.. You can't beat a good whiteboard dual.

Mailing lists don't make good whiteboards though...


Mon, 29 Apr 2002 22:51:57 -0400
"Rod Taylor" <rbt@zort.ca>
Re: Civility of core/hackers group
Rod Taylor wrote:
> > > There sure are a lot of arguments in the hackers list tho :)  I do
> wish
> > > people would be a little less 'ad hominem' in their argument
> styles,
> > > however.
> >
> > Yes, things do get a little testy sometimes, and it does worry me,
> but
> > it seems to blow over quickly.
> 
> Bah.. You can't beat a good whiteboard dual.
> 
> Mailing lists don't make good whiteboards though...

"Whiteboard dual" is probably a good characterization.

-- 
  Bruce Momjian                        |  http://candle.pha.pa.us
  pgman@candle.pha.pa.us               |  (610) 853-3000
  +  If your life is a hard drive,     |  830 Blythe Avenue
  +  Christ can be your backup.        |  Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026

Mon, 29 Apr 2002 22:54:07 -0400 (EDT)
Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>
Re: Civility of core/hackers group
Bruce Momjian wrote:
> 
> Rod Taylor wrote:
> > > > There sure are a lot of arguments in the hackers list tho :)  I do
> > wish
> > > > people would be a little less 'ad hominem' in their argument
> > styles,
> > > > however.
> > >
> > > Yes, things do get a little testy sometimes, and it does worry me,
> > but
> > > it seems to blow over quickly.
> >
> > Bah.. You can't beat a good whiteboard dual.
> >
> > Mailing lists don't make good whiteboards though...
> 
> "Whiteboard dual" is probably a good characterization.

Or, is it "dualing whiteboards" (banjo player not included.)

Mon, 29 Apr 2002 23:01:34 -0400
mlw <markw@mohawksoft.com>
Re: Civility of core/hackers group
On Tue, 30 Apr 2002, Christopher Kings-Lynne wrote:

> > We have been very fortunate to have avoided such problems since we
> > started six years ago, and I hope it never happens.
> 
> There sure are a lot of arguments in the hackers list tho :)  I do wish
> people would be a little less 'ad hominem' in their argument styles,
> however.

I'd be more concerned if hackers didn't argue for their own point of
view/code/methodology.

Gavin


Tue, 30 Apr 2002 13:30:27 +1000 (EST)
Gavin Sherry <swm@linuxworld.com.au>
Re: Civility of core/hackers group
Lamar Owen <lamar.owen@wgcr.org> writes:
>> It would be an interesting thing to consider what would happen to the
>> Postgres project if Tom left one day...

> Of course, PostgreSQL existed before he came in, and PostgreSQL would exist 
> afterwards -- that is, after all, the beauty of free software.

I was about to make the same comment.  The project can survive the loss
of any individual member(s).

			regards, tom lane

Tue, 30 Apr 2002 01:09:31 -0400
Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
Re: Civility of core/hackers group 