
> >> Do we need a checkpoint after the archiving
> >> starts but before the backup begins?
> 
> > No.
> 
> Actually yes.

Sorry, I did incorrectly not connect 'archiving' with the backed up xlogs :-(
So yes, you need one checkpoint after archiving starts. Imho turning on xlog
archiving should issue such a checkpoint just to be sure. 

Andreas

Fri, 16 Jul 2004 17:58:10 +0200
"Zeugswetter Andreas SB SD" <ZeugswetterA@spardat.at>
Re: Point in Time Recovery
On Fri, 2004-07-16 at 16:58, Zeugswetter Andreas SB SD wrote:
> > >> Do we need a checkpoint after the archiving
> > >> starts but before the backup begins?
> > 
> > > No.
> > 
> > Actually yes.
> 
> Sorry, I did incorrectly not connect 'archiving' with the backed up xlogs :-(
> So yes, you need one checkpoint after archiving starts. Imho turning on xlog
> archiving should issue such a checkpoint just to be sure. 
> 

By agreement, archive_mode can only be turned on at postmaster startup,
which means you always have a checkpoint - either because you shut it
down cleanly, or you didn't and it recovers, then writes one.

There is always something to start the rollforward. 

So, non-issue.

Best regards, Simon Riggs


Fri, 16 Jul 2004 17:53:30 +0100
Simon Riggs <simon@2ndquadrant.com>
Re: Point in Time Recovery
Simon Riggs wrote:
> On Fri, 2004-07-16 at 16:58, Zeugswetter Andreas SB SD wrote:
> > > >> Do we need a checkpoint after the archiving
> > > >> starts but before the backup begins?
> > > 
> > > > No.
> > > 
> > > Actually yes.
> > 
> > Sorry, I did incorrectly not connect 'archiving' with the backed up xlogs :-(
> > So yes, you need one checkpoint after archiving starts. Imho turning on xlog
> > archiving should issue such a checkpoint just to be sure. 
> > 
> 
> By agreement, archive_mode can only be turned on at postmaster startup,
> which means you always have a checkpoint - either because you shut it
> down cleanly, or you didn't and it recovers, then writes one.
> 
> There is always something to start the rollforward. 
> 
> So, non-issue.

I don't think so.  I can imagine many cases where you want to do a
nightly tar backup without turning archiving on/off or restarting the
postmaster.  In those cases, a manual checkpoint would have to be issued
before the backup begins.

Imagine a system that is up for a month, and they don't have enough
archive space to keep a months worth of WAL files.  They would probably
do nightly or weekend tar backups, and then discard the WAL archives.

What procedure would they use?  I assume they would copy all their old
WAL files to a save directory, issue a checkpoint, do a tar backup, then
they can delete the saved WAL files.  Is that correct?

-- 
  Bruce Momjian                        |  http://candle.pha.pa.us
  pgman@candle.pha.pa.us               |  (610) 359-1001
  +  If your life is a hard drive,     |  13 Roberts Road
  +  Christ can be your backup.        |  Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073

Fri, 16 Jul 2004 14:30:13 -0400 (EDT)
Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>
Re: Point in Time Recovery
On Fri, 2004-07-16 at 19:30, Bruce Momjian wrote:
> Simon Riggs wrote:
> > On Fri, 2004-07-16 at 16:58, Zeugswetter Andreas SB SD wrote:
> > > > >> Do we need a checkpoint after the archiving
> > > > >> starts but before the backup begins?
> > > > 
> > > > > No.
> > > > 
> > > > Actually yes.
> > > 
> > > Sorry, I did incorrectly not connect 'archiving' with the backed up xlogs :-(
> > > So yes, you need one checkpoint after archiving starts. Imho turning on xlog
> > > archiving should issue such a checkpoint just to be sure. 
> > > 
> > 
> > By agreement, archive_mode can only be turned on at postmaster startup,
> > which means you always have a checkpoint - either because you shut it
> > down cleanly, or you didn't and it recovers, then writes one.
> > 
> > There is always something to start the rollforward. 
> > 
> > So, non-issue.
> 

I was discussing the claim that there might not be a checkpoint to begin
the rollforward from. There always is: if you are in archive_mode=true
then you will always have a checkpoint that can be used for recovery. It
may be "a long way in the past", if there has been no write activity,
but the rollforward will very very quick, since there will be no log
records.

> I don't think so.  I can imagine many cases where you want to do a
> nightly tar backup without turning archiving on/off or restarting the
> postmaster.  

This is a misunderstanding. I strongly agree with what you say: the
whole system has been designed to avoid any benefit from turning on/off
archiving and there is no requirement to restart postmaster to take
backups.

> In those cases, a manual checkpoint would have to be issued
> before the backup begins.

A manual checkpoint doesn't HAVE TO be issued. Presumably most systems
will be running checkpoint every few minutes. Wherever the last one was
is where the rollforward would start from.

But you can if thats the way you want to do things, just wait long
enough for the checkpoint to have completed, otherwise your objective of
reducing rollforward time will not be met.

(please note my earlier reported rollback performance of approximately
x10 rate of recovery v elapsed time - will require testing on your own
systems).

> Imagine a system that is up for a month, and they don't have enough
> archive space to keep a months worth of WAL files.  They would probably
> do nightly or weekend tar backups, and then discard the WAL archives.
> 

Yes, that would be normal practice. I would recommend keeping at least
the last 3 full backups and all of the WAL logs to cover that period.

> What procedure would they use?  I assume they would copy all their old
> WAL files to a save directory, issue a checkpoint, do a tar backup, then
> they can delete the saved WAL files.  Is that correct?

PITR is designed to interface with a wide range of systems, through the
extensible archive/recovery program interface. We shouldn't focus on
just tar backups - if you do, then the whole thing seems less
feature-rich. The current design allows interfacing with tape, remote
backup, internet backup providers, automated standby servers and the
dozen major storage/archive vendors' solutions.

Writing a procedure to backup, assign filenames, keep track of stuff
isn't too difficult if you're a competent DBA with a mild knowledge of
shell or perl scripting. But if data is important, people will want to
invest the time and trouble to adopt one of the open source or licenced
vendors that provide solutions in this area.

Systems management is a discipline and procedures should be in place for
everything. I fully agree with the "automate everything" dictum, but
just don't want to constrain people too much to a particular way of
doing things.

-o-o-

Overall, for first release, I think the complexity of this design is
acceptable. PITR is similar to Oracle7 Backup/Recovery, and easily
recognisable to any DBA with current experience of current SQL Server,
DB2 (MVS, UDB) or Teradata systems. [I can't comment much on Ingres,
Informix, Sybase etc]

My main areas of concern are:
- the formal correctness of the recovery process
As a result of this concern, PITR makes ZERO alterations to the recovery
code itself. The trick is to feed it the right xlog files and to stop,
if required, at the right place and allow normal work to resume.

- the robustness and quality of my implementation
This requires quality checking of the code and full beta testing

-o-o-

We've raised a couple of valid points on the lists in the last few days:
- its probably a desirable feature (but not essential) to implement a
write suspend feature on the bgwriter, if nothing else it will be a
confidence building feature...as said previously, for many people, this
will not be required, but people will no doubt keep asking
- there is a small window of risk around the possibility that a recovery
target might be set by the user that doesn't rollforward all the way
past the end of the backup. That is real, but in general, people aren't
likely to be performing archive recovery within minutes of a backup
being taken - and if they are, they can always start from the previous
one to that. This is a gap we should close, but its just something to be
aware of...just like pg_dump not sorting things in the correct order in
its first release.

Not for now, but soon, I would propose:
- a command to suspend/resume bgwriter to allow backups. 
- use the suspend/resume feature to write a log record "backup end
marker" which shows when this took place. Ensure that any rollforward
goes through AT LEAST ONE "backup end marker" on its way. (If a Point in
Time is specified too early, we can check this immediately against the
checkpoint record. We can then refuse to stop at eny point in time
earlier than the backup end marker.

I've written a todo list and will post this again soon.

Best Regards, Simon Riggs


Fri, 16 Jul 2004 23:01:06 +0100
Simon Riggs <simon@2ndquadrant.com>
Re: Point in Time Recovery