I have been harping for the last few days (years, actually) about tweaks
and changes to PostgreSQL for a number of reasons ranging from session
management to static tables. I even had a notion to come up with msession
on PostgreSQL.

I have been incorporating full text search, recommendations, and a slew of
other features into PostgreSQL, but you know what? While it does touch
Postgre in a real sense, it is not strictly SQL. It is about how to create
applications with PostgreSQL. That's what we're missing, Coneptually,
PostgreSQL is strictly a database and the core team (rightly so) is
fundimentally happy with that aspect of it.

Maybe we need a pgfoundary project called "PostgreSQL Application Server."
Like Apache Tomcat or regular apache or PHP, PostgreSQL could form the SQL
base of a far more intricate and flexable framework that encompases a lot
of the various features that could provide "application sever" features
from PostgreSQL.

Sat, 12 Jun 2004 00:37:54 -0400 (EDT)
pgsql@mohawksoft.com
I just got it: PostgreSQL Application Server -- a new project.
> Dear pgsql@mohawksoft.com ,
>
>>Maybe we need a pgfoundary project called "PostgreSQL Application
>> Server."
>>Like Apache Tomcat or regular apache or PHP, PostgreSQL could form the
>> SQL
>>base of a far more intricate and flexable framework that encompases a lot
>>of the various features that could provide "application sever" features
>>from PostgreSQL.
>>
>>
> Ok , fine thats required but how we start and what stuff is required to
> materilize all this lets put a plan and I am sure
> people including me will add to it.
>
Well that's a good question: How about these features:

Full Text Search
A recommendations system
WEB Session system
HTTP/XML interface with caching
Replication
Some OLAP functions
Unified installation
simplified configuration

Whatever else we can toss in and behave as one unified product.

I think this could look a little like a better integrated Apache Jacarta
project. We could have links to the various projects, HOWTOs, and
hopefully some unified binary release.


Sat, 12 Jun 2004 08:45:38 -0400 (EDT)
pgsql@mohawksoft.com
Re: I just got it: PostgreSQL Application Server -- a 
Jumping on that bandwagon with all 6 feet!

Carl <|};-)>



-----Original Message-----
From: pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org
[mailto:pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org] On Behalf Of
pgsql@mohawksoft.com
Sent: Friday, June 11, 2004 9:38 PM
To: pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org
Subject: [HACKERS] I just got it: PostgreSQL Application Server -- a new
project.


I have been harping for the last few days (years, actually) about tweaks and
changes to PostgreSQL for a number of reasons ranging from session
management to static tables. I even had a notion to come up with msession on
PostgreSQL.

I have been incorporating full text search, recommendations, and a slew of
other features into PostgreSQL, but you know what? While it does touch
Postgre in a real sense, it is not strictly SQL. It is about how to create
applications with PostgreSQL. That's what we're missing, Coneptually,
PostgreSQL is strictly a database and the core team (rightly so) is
fundimentally happy with that aspect of it.

Maybe we need a pgfoundary project called "PostgreSQL Application Server."
Like Apache Tomcat or regular apache or PHP, PostgreSQL could form the SQL
base of a far more intricate and flexable framework that encompases a lot of
the various features that could provide "application sever" features from
PostgreSQL.

---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
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    (send "unregister YourEmailAddressHere" to majordomo@postgresql.org)



Sat, 12 Jun 2004 07:42:50 -0700
"Carl E. McMillin" <carlymac@earthlink.net>
Re: I just got it: PostgreSQL Application Server -- a new project.
Even if I find the concepts as such very interesting, I think the term
"Application Server" is very misleading. People would get very confused and
place PostgreSQL in the same category as JBoss, Jonas, Apache Geronimo, IBM
Websphere, BEA Weblogic to name a few well known App-servers.

IMHO, you really need some other umbrella name for this.

Kind regards,

Thomas Hallgren


""Carl E. McMillin"" <carlymac@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:000801c4508b$8c2ef3a0$6500a8c0@DEVSONY...
Jumping on that bandwagon with all 6 feet!

Carl <|};-)>



-----Original Message-----
From: pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org
[mailto:pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org] On Behalf Of
pgsql@mohawksoft.com
Sent: Friday, June 11, 2004 9:38 PM
To: pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org
Subject: [HACKERS] I just got it: PostgreSQL Application Server -- a new
project.


I have been harping for the last few days (years, actually) about tweaks and
changes to PostgreSQL for a number of reasons ranging from session
management to static tables. I even had a notion to come up with msession on
PostgreSQL.

I have been incorporating full text search, recommendations, and a slew of
other features into PostgreSQL, but you know what? While it does touch
Postgre in a real sense, it is not strictly SQL. It is about how to create
applications with PostgreSQL. That's what we're missing, Coneptually,
PostgreSQL is strictly a database and the core team (rightly so) is
fundimentally happy with that aspect of it.

Maybe we need a pgfoundary project called "PostgreSQL Application Server."
Like Apache Tomcat or regular apache or PHP, PostgreSQL could form the SQL
base of a far more intricate and flexable framework that encompases a lot of
the various features that could provide "application sever" features from
PostgreSQL.

---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
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Sat, 12 Jun 2004 18:47:29 +0200
"Thomas Hallgren" <thhal@mailblocks.com>
Re: I just got it: PostgreSQL Application Server -- a new project.
If you consider an app server as a container for functionality that persists
data/control state beyond a single invocation, PostgreSQL (and lots of other
DP solutions, of course) falls into the category already, ne?

I suppose my def. is too gross, but I agree with pgsql@mohawksoft.com's
conjecture that Postgres COULD provide "externalization" hooks so that the
SQL engine could integrate external services/data-sources without
recompiling the backend, postmaster, or any other kind of major (and
dangerous) restructuring.

I believe that some of the contribs (like PL/Perl) have functionality for
controlling external processes from stored-procedures, but this kind of
functionality should be in the "kernel" of the engine, in my mind.

If I'm totally offbase, plz correct.

Carl <|};-)>



-----Original Message-----
From: pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org
[mailto:pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org] On Behalf Of Thomas Hallgren
Sent: Saturday, June 12, 2004 9:47 AM
To: pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] I just got it: PostgreSQL Application Server -- a new
project.


Even if I find the concepts as such very interesting, I think the term
"Application Server" is very misleading. People would get very confused and
place PostgreSQL in the same category as JBoss, Jonas, Apache Geronimo, IBM
Websphere, BEA Weblogic to name a few well known App-servers.

IMHO, you really need some other umbrella name for this.

Kind regards,

Thomas Hallgren


""Carl E. McMillin"" <carlymac@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:000801c4508b$8c2ef3a0$6500a8c0@DEVSONY...
Jumping on that bandwagon with all 6 feet!

Carl <|};-)>



-----Original Message-----
From: pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org
[mailto:pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org] On Behalf Of
pgsql@mohawksoft.com
Sent: Friday, June 11, 2004 9:38 PM
To: pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org
Subject: [HACKERS] I just got it: PostgreSQL Application Server -- a new
project.


I have been harping for the last few days (years, actually) about tweaks and
changes to PostgreSQL for a number of reasons ranging from session
management to static tables. I even had a notion to come up with msession on
PostgreSQL.

I have been incorporating full text search, recommendations, and a slew of
other features into PostgreSQL, but you know what? While it does touch
Postgre in a real sense, it is not strictly SQL. It is about how to create
applications with PostgreSQL. That's what we're missing, Coneptually,
PostgreSQL is strictly a database and the core team (rightly so) is
fundimentally happy with that aspect of it.

Maybe we need a pgfoundary project called "PostgreSQL Application Server."
Like Apache Tomcat or regular apache or PHP, PostgreSQL could form the SQL
base of a far more intricate and flexable framework that encompases a lot of
the various features that could provide "application sever" features from
PostgreSQL.

---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
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    (send "unregister YourEmailAddressHere" to majordomo@postgresql.org)



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Sat, 12 Jun 2004 11:24:44 -0700
"Carl E. McMillin" <carlymac@earthlink.net>
Re: I just got it: PostgreSQL Application Server -- a new project.
The term "App-server" is very commonly used to describe the container where
the application logic resides. As such, an app-server has access to one or
several Storages. PostgreSQL is an implementation of such a storage. The
thing you describe, "a container for functionality that persists
control/data state beyond a single invocation" is also a Storage.

It's very common that you impose a separation of concern that imposes 3 (or
more) layers (3-tier, n-tier). You have the backend tier, a middle tier, and
a client tier. PostgreSQL inherently belongs in the backend tier. An
app-server is more or less always considered to be the thingy that lives in
the middle tier.

The ability to persist the state of a session, efficient handling when
storing HTML/XML, and cluster capabilities, will make PostgreSQL an
excellent backend for many app-servers that can utilize that kind of
functionality. It will not however, make PosgreSQL an app-server in itself.

I really think that pgsql@mohawksoft.com has great ideas (B.T.W. it would be
nice to know your name) and I'd be happy to help out if this project takes
off. But some other name for it would be preferable.

Kind regards,

Thomas Hallgren


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Carl E. McMillin" <carlymac@earthlink.net>
To: "'Thomas Hallgren'" <thhal@mailblocks.com>;
<pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
Sent: Saturday, June 12, 2004 20:24
Subject: RE: [HACKERS] I just got it: PostgreSQL Application Server -- a new
project.


If you consider an app server as a container for functionality that persists
data/control state beyond a single invocation, PostgreSQL (and lots of other
DP solutions, of course) falls into the category already, ne?

I suppose my def. is too gross, but I agree with pgsql@mohawksoft.com's
conjecture that Postgres COULD provide "externalization" hooks so that the
SQL engine could integrate external services/data-sources without
recompiling the backend, postmaster, or any other kind of major (and
dangerous) restructuring.

I believe that some of the contribs (like PL/Perl) have functionality for
controlling external processes from stored-procedures, but this kind of
functionality should be in the "kernel" of the engine, in my mind.

If I'm totally offbase, plz correct.

Carl <|};-)>



-----Original Message-----
From: pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org
[mailto:pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org] On Behalf Of Thomas Hallgren
Sent: Saturday, June 12, 2004 9:47 AM
To: pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] I just got it: PostgreSQL Application Server -- a new
project.


Even if I find the concepts as such very interesting, I think the term
"Application Server" is very misleading. People would get very confused and
place PostgreSQL in the same category as JBoss, Jonas, Apache Geronimo, IBM
Websphere, BEA Weblogic to name a few well known App-servers.

IMHO, you really need some other umbrella name for this.

Kind regards,

Thomas Hallgren


""Carl E. McMillin"" <carlymac@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:000801c4508b$8c2ef3a0$6500a8c0@DEVSONY...
Jumping on that bandwagon with all 6 feet!

Carl <|};-)>



-----Original Message-----
From: pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org
[mailto:pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org] On Behalf Of
pgsql@mohawksoft.com
Sent: Friday, June 11, 2004 9:38 PM
To: pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org
Subject: [HACKERS] I just got it: PostgreSQL Application Server -- a new
project.


I have been harping for the last few days (years, actually) about tweaks and
changes to PostgreSQL for a number of reasons ranging from session
management to static tables. I even had a notion to come up with msession on
PostgreSQL.

I have been incorporating full text search, recommendations, and a slew of
other features into PostgreSQL, but you know what? While it does touch
Postgre in a real sense, it is not strictly SQL. It is about how to create
applications with PostgreSQL. That's what we're missing, Coneptually,
PostgreSQL is strictly a database and the core team (rightly so) is
fundimentally happy with that aspect of it.

Maybe we need a pgfoundary project called "PostgreSQL Application Server."
Like Apache Tomcat or regular apache or PHP, PostgreSQL could form the SQL
base of a far more intricate and flexable framework that encompases a lot of
the various features that could provide "application sever" features from
PostgreSQL.

---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
TIP 2: you can get off all lists at once with the unregister command
    (send "unregister YourEmailAddressHere" to majordomo@postgresql.org)



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Sat, 12 Jun 2004 22:11:35 +0200
"Thomas Hallgren" <thhal@mailblocks.com>
Re: I just got it: PostgreSQL Application Server -- a new project.
Thanks for your indepth and patient response!

My name is Carl E. McMillin and I'm still establishing my balance in this
particular knowledge domain with its nomenclature and entities.

> The term "App-server" is very commonly used to describe
> the container where the application logic resides. As such,
> an app-server has access to one or several Storages. PostgreSQL
> is an implementation of such a storage. The thing you describe,
> "a container for functionality that persists control/data state
> beyond a single invocation" is also a Storage.

Essentially, I agree with your assessment: App Servers should do app-stuff
and Storage Servers (RDBMS engines for instance) should do storage stuff.

But Postgres isn't purely a storage solution; it is not just a place to hang
your data.  Aren't stored procedures, whether SQL-based or backed by native
libraries, very much essential to application-logic performance and
portability?  Ok, portability may suffer, but they do help performance!

Perhaps tiers which include "extreme" Postgres are not as clearly delineated
in function as a DBA or a systems engineer would like, but the extensible
nature of Postgres does lend flexibility to the developer looking to offload
complexity into the database so that the functionality is as accessible as
the data operated on.

One of my personal interests is "hybridizing" a strong SQL
execution-environment such as Postgres with an equally strong
process-control framework so that components which would normally be in the
"middle" tier are directly accessible by way of "extensions".  For instance,
constructs such as the following would be really useful in some
bioinformatics-related consulting I'm involved in:

SELECT * FROM get_list_of_hsp_from_blastall('ACGGATTAT', 'H_sapiens');

The function "get_list_of_hsp_from_blastall" takes a primer ('ACGGATTAT')
and an organism ('H_sapiens') and runs an external process called "blastall"
to locate "high-scoring pairs" where the primer "aligns well" with the
organism's nucleotide-sequence (its genome).  This would be a relatively
trivial exercise if Postgres had a robust framework for process control -
maybe it does, I haven't gotten many responses indicating yea or nay.

Anyway, I'm on for anything in the way of enhancing this aspect of Postgres
if there is sufficient will for such in the community.  The moniker under
which this development takes place I leave to better minds.  

Best Regards,

Carl <|};-)>, CarlCo, (Newbie) Computer Engineer.

-----Original Message-----
From: pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org
[mailto:pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org] On Behalf Of Thomas Hallgren
Sent: Saturday, June 12, 2004 1:12 PM
To: pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org; Carl E. McMillin; pgsql@mohawksoft.com
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] I just got it: PostgreSQL Application Server -- a new
project.


The term "App-server" is very commonly used to describe the container where
the application logic resides. As such, an app-server has access to one or
several Storages. PostgreSQL is an implementation of such a storage. The
thing you describe, "a container for functionality that persists
control/data state beyond a single invocation" is also a Storage.

It's very common that you impose a separation of concern that imposes 3 (or
more) layers (3-tier, n-tier). You have the backend tier, a middle tier, and
a client tier. PostgreSQL inherently belongs in the backend tier. An
app-server is more or less always considered to be the thingy that lives in
the middle tier.

The ability to persist the state of a session, efficient handling when
storing HTML/XML, and cluster capabilities, will make PostgreSQL an
excellent backend for many app-servers that can utilize that kind of
functionality. It will not however, make PosgreSQL an app-server in itself.

I really think that pgsql@mohawksoft.com has great ideas (B.T.W. it would be
nice to know your name) and I'd be happy to help out if this project takes
off. But some other name for it would be preferable.

Kind regards,

Thomas Hallgren


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Carl E. McMillin" <carlymac@earthlink.net>
To: "'Thomas Hallgren'" <thhal@mailblocks.com>;
<pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
Sent: Saturday, June 12, 2004 20:24
Subject: RE: [HACKERS] I just got it: PostgreSQL Application Server -- a new
project.


If you consider an app server as a container for functionality that persists
data/control state beyond a single invocation, PostgreSQL (and lots of other
DP solutions, of course) falls into the category already, ne?

I suppose my def. is too gross, but I agree with pgsql@mohawksoft.com's
conjecture that Postgres COULD provide "externalization" hooks so that the
SQL engine could integrate external services/data-sources without
recompiling the backend, postmaster, or any other kind of major (and
dangerous) restructuring.

I believe that some of the contribs (like PL/Perl) have functionality for
controlling external processes from stored-procedures, but this kind of
functionality should be in the "kernel" of the engine, in my mind.

If I'm totally offbase, plz correct.

Carl <|};-)>



-----Original Message-----
From: pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org
[mailto:pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org] On Behalf Of Thomas Hallgren
Sent: Saturday, June 12, 2004 9:47 AM
To: pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] I just got it: PostgreSQL Application Server -- a new
project.


Even if I find the concepts as such very interesting, I think the term
"Application Server" is very misleading. People would get very confused and
place PostgreSQL in the same category as JBoss, Jonas, Apache Geronimo, IBM
Websphere, BEA Weblogic to name a few well known App-servers.

IMHO, you really need some other umbrella name for this.

Kind regards,

Thomas Hallgren


""Carl E. McMillin"" <carlymac@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:000801c4508b$8c2ef3a0$6500a8c0@DEVSONY...
Jumping on that bandwagon with all 6 feet!

Carl <|};-)>



-----Original Message-----
From: pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org
[mailto:pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org] On Behalf Of
pgsql@mohawksoft.com
Sent: Friday, June 11, 2004 9:38 PM
To: pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org
Subject: [HACKERS] I just got it: PostgreSQL Application Server -- a new
project.


I have been harping for the last few days (years, actually) about tweaks and
changes to PostgreSQL for a number of reasons ranging from session
management to static tables. I even had a notion to come up with msession on
PostgreSQL.

I have been incorporating full text search, recommendations, and a slew of
other features into PostgreSQL, but you know what? While it does touch
Postgre in a real sense, it is not strictly SQL. It is about how to create
applications with PostgreSQL. That's what we're missing, Coneptually,
PostgreSQL is strictly a database and the core team (rightly so) is
fundimentally happy with that aspect of it.

Maybe we need a pgfoundary project called "PostgreSQL Application Server."
Like Apache Tomcat or regular apache or PHP, PostgreSQL could form the SQL
base of a far more intricate and flexable framework that encompases a lot of
the various features that could provide "application sever" features from
PostgreSQL.



Sat, 12 Jun 2004 14:33:14 -0700
"Carl E. McMillin" <carlymac@earthlink.net>
Re: I just got it: PostgreSQL Application Server -- a new project.
"Carl E. McMillin" <carlymac@earthlink.net> writes:
> My name is Carl E. McMillin and I'm still establishing my balance in this
> particular knowledge domain with its nomenclature and entities.
>
Ok, I was thinking more the name behind pgsql@mohawksoft.com ;-)

> But Postgres isn't purely a storage solution; it is not just a place to
hang
> your data.  Aren't stored procedures, whether SQL-based or backed by
native
> libraries, very much essential to application-logic performance and
> portability?  Ok, portability may suffer, but they do help performance!
>
I agree. Some app logic is best performed in the backend. Especially if the
logic is storage intensitive or deals with advanced storage
constraints/rules. That's one of the reasons I wrote Pl/Java. In essence, I
don't think we disagree on anything. The only thing I'm reacting to is the
term "app-server" which I think is badly chosen. Stored procedures and
functions doesn't make a database an app-server, no matter what you put in
them.

> One of my personal interests is "hybridizing" a strong SQL
> execution-environment such as Postgres with an equally strong
> process-control framework so that components which would normally be in
the
> "middle" tier are directly accessible by way of "extensions".  For
instance,
> constructs such as the following would be really useful in some
> bioinformatics-related consulting I'm involved in:
>
> SELECT * FROM get_list_of_hsp_from_blastall('ACGGATTAT', 'H_sapiens');
>
> The function "get_list_of_hsp_from_blastall" takes a primer ('ACGGATTAT')
> and an organism ('H_sapiens') and runs an external process called
"blastall"
> to locate "high-scoring pairs" where the primer "aligns well" with the
> organism's nucleotide-sequence (its genome).  This would be a relatively
> trivial exercise if Postgres had a robust framework for process control -
> maybe it does, I haven't gotten many responses indicating yea or nay.
>
You can write your own functions in C and thereby get all the process
control you want. Or if you want to make life easier and get a more portable
solution (by my standards that is) why not use Java?

Kind regards,

Thomas Hallgren



Sun, 13 Jun 2004 01:23:49 +0200
"Thomas Hallgren" <thhal@mailblocks.com>
Re: I just got it: PostgreSQL Application Server -- a new project.
Thomas Hallgren wrote:

> "Carl E. McMillin" <carlymac@earthlink.net> writes:
> 
>>My name is Carl E. McMillin and I'm still establishing my balance in this
>>particular knowledge domain with its nomenclature and entities.
>>
> 
> Ok, I was thinking more the name behind pgsql@mohawksoft.com ;-)

Exactly. I think it's Bill Gates leading a secret life...

Mike Mascari



Sat, 12 Jun 2004 19:43:52 -0400
Mike Mascari <mascarm@mascari.com>
Re: I just got it: PostgreSQL Application Server -- a new
> ...That's one of the reasons I wrote Pl/Java.

More power too you! I'd really like to hear more about this project. Is

http://gborg.postgresql.org/project/pljava/projdisplay.php

your URL?

> In essence, I don't think we disagree on anything.
> The only thing I'm reacting to is the term "app-server" which I
> think is badly chosen. Stored procedures and functions doesn't
> make a database an app-server, no matter what you put in them.

I'm now in complete agreement: app-server doesn't fit.  Do you have any
suggestions?  Would a postgreslet be out of bounds, do you think?

> You can write your own functions in C and thereby get
> all the process control you want. Or if you want to make life
> easier and get a more portable solution (by my standards that is)
> why not use Java?

I admit my almost complete ignorance of how sensitive the postgres backend
is to all the hazards of process-control: is the postgres process REALLY
just another UNIX process?  Can I "exec" on top of it?  Can I fork? Can I
have a child-process using IPC wait for 10 mins for its connected process do
its work without hosing the postmaster with its shared memory locks and all
that?  I've held off any serious development along these lines since I don't
have the time to do heavy code-trawling, that seeming the only way of
obtaining the level of detail necessary to do the job well.

I would most definitely use embedded java if it could do at-minimum SRF's
and spawn processes.  Something similar to SPI for Java would be pretty
useful too, I imagine. 

Best Regards,

Carl <|};-)>



-----Original Message-----
From: Thomas Hallgren [mailto:thhal@mailblocks.com] 
Sent: Saturday, June 12, 2004 4:24 PM
To: Carl E. McMillin
Cc: pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org; pgsql@mohawksoft.com; Bob; 'Bill Martin';
'Joe Burks'; verbus@hotmail.com
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] I just got it: PostgreSQL Application Server -- a new
project.


"Carl E. McMillin" <carlymac@earthlink.net> writes:
> My name is Carl E. McMillin and I'm still establishing my balance in 
> this particular knowledge domain with its nomenclature and entities.
>
Ok, I was thinking more the name behind pgsql@mohawksoft.com ;-)

> But Postgres isn't purely a storage solution; it is not just a place 
> to
hang
> your data.  Aren't stored procedures, whether SQL-based or backed by
native
> libraries, very much essential to application-logic performance and 
> portability?  Ok, portability may suffer, but they do help 
> performance!
>
I agree. Some app logic is best performed in the backend. Especially if the
logic is storage intensitive or deals with advanced storage
constraints/rules. That's one of the reasons I wrote Pl/Java. In essence, I
don't think we disagree on anything. The only thing I'm reacting to is the
term "app-server" which I think is badly chosen. Stored procedures and
functions doesn't make a database an app-server, no matter what you put in
them.

> One of my personal interests is "hybridizing" a strong SQL 
> execution-environment such as Postgres with an equally strong 
> process-control framework so that components which would normally be 
> in
the
> "middle" tier are directly accessible by way of "extensions".  For
instance,
> constructs such as the following would be really useful in some 
> bioinformatics-related consulting I'm involved in:
>
> SELECT * FROM get_list_of_hsp_from_blastall('ACGGATTAT', 'H_sapiens');
>
> The function "get_list_of_hsp_from_blastall" takes a primer 
> ('ACGGATTAT') and an organism ('H_sapiens') and runs an external 
> process called
"blastall"
> to locate "high-scoring pairs" where the primer "aligns well" with the 
> organism's nucleotide-sequence (its genome).  This would be a 
> relatively trivial exercise if Postgres had a robust framework for 
> process control - maybe it does, I haven't gotten many responses 
> indicating yea or nay.
>
You can write your own functions in C and thereby get all the process
control you want. Or if you want to make life easier and get a more portable
solution (by my standards that is) why not use Java?

Kind regards,

Thomas Hallgren




Sat, 12 Jun 2004 17:29:59 -0700
"Carl E. McMillin" <carlymac@earthlink.net>
Re: I just got it: PostgreSQL Application Server -- a new project.
> Thomas Hallgren wrote:
>
>> "Carl E. McMillin" <carlymac@earthlink.net> writes:
>>
>>>My name is Carl E. McMillin and I'm still establishing my balance in
>>> this
>>>particular knowledge domain with its nomenclature and entities.
>>>
>>
>> Ok, I was thinking more the name behind pgsql@mohawksoft.com ;-)
>
> Exactly. I think it's Bill Gates leading a secret life...

Now that's just plain nasty.

I don't intentially obscure my identification, I just have so much email,
The last then I want tot do is have my nane skimmed by an outlook email
virus and blasted everywhere. I also have five enail addresses, person,
business, casual, and two open source project emails, on of which is
pgsql.

Hi, my name is Mark, and I am sick of SPAM.

>
> Mike Mascari
>
>


Sun, 13 Jun 2004 00:24:33 -0400 (EDT)
pgsql@mohawksoft.com
Re: I just got it: PostgreSQL Application Server -- a 
On Sun, Jun 13, 2004 at 12:24:33AM -0400, pgsql@mohawksoft.com wrote:

> I don't intentially obscure my identification, I just have so much email,
> The last then I want tot do is have my nane skimmed by an outlook email
> virus and blasted everywhere. I also have five enail addresses, person,
> business, casual, and two open source project emails, on of which is
> pgsql.
> 
> Hi, my name is Mark, and I am sick of SPAM.

Hey, I get a lot of spam too, but I don't see how taking my name out of
the "From: " header will rid me of it.  See the "To: " header here.

This is easy and you know it.

-- 
Alvaro Herrera (<alvherre[a]dcc.uchile.cl>)
"Cï¿½mo ponemos nuestros dedos en la arcilla del otro. Eso es la amistad; jugar
al alfarero y ver quï¿½ formas se pueden sacar del otro" (C. Halloway en
La Feria de las Tinieblas, R. Bradbury)


Sun, 13 Jun 2004 00:46:49 -0400
Alvaro Herrera <alvherre@dcc.uchile.cl>
Mohawksoft (was Re: I just got it: ...)
"Carl E. McMillin" <carlymac@earthlink.net> wrote:
>> ...That's one of the reasons I wrote Pl/Java.
>
> More power too you! I'd really like to hear more about this project. Is
>
> http://gborg.postgresql.org/project/pljava/projdisplay.php
>
> your URL?
>
Yes, it is.

> I'm now in complete agreement: app-server doesn't fit.  Do you have any
> suggestions?  Would a postgreslet be out of bounds, do you think?
>
"PostgreSQL Advanced Storage Server" perhaps :-)

> I admit my almost complete ignorance of how sensitive the postgres backend
> is to all the hazards of process-control: is the postgres process REALLY
> just another UNIX process?  Can I "exec" on top of it?  Can I fork?
>
Yes (on a Unix platform), yes, and yes (again, on Unix. Windows doesn't have
fork).

> Can I have a child-process using IPC wait for 10 mins for its connected
process do
> its work without hosing the postmaster with its shared memory locks and
all
> that?  I've held off any serious development along these lines since I
don't
> have the time to do heavy code-trawling, that seeming the only way of
> obtaining the level of detail necessary to do the job well.
>
I think so although I haven't tried it so I'm not completely sure about
timeouts. I guess that if there indeed are such timeouts, they are
configurable.

The main concern is probably not the stuff that you address. The really hard
part is transaction coordination. What if the process you start have some
side effects? What if the call that was issued through PostgreSQL is rolled
back? PostgreSQL currently lacks a way to subscribe to transactional events
so there's no way your code can detect the outcome of a transaction.

> I would most definitely use embedded java if it could do at-minimum SRF's
> and spawn processes.  Something similar to SPI for Java would be pretty
> useful too, I imagine.
>
It's there already. Pl/Java comes with a JDBC driver implemented on top of
SPI. And using it, you are of course running in the same transaction as the
origin of the call to Java.

Kind regards,

Thomas Hallgren



Sun, 13 Jun 2004 10:07:24 +0200
"Thomas Hallgren" <thhal@mailblocks.com>
Re: I just got it: PostgreSQL Application Server -- a new project.
OK, perhaps application server is not an appropriate name, but what should
we call it?

Two issues:

(1) We should get this off hackers, but to where?
(2)My vision for this thing is that it is more than just PostgreSQL, it is
PG plus a lot of the popular add-ons and some new ones, sample code, all
with the feel of a "product." At the end of it, you'll be able to identify
the PostgreSQL components, but not the whole.

This is not a slam against the core team. The core team does a great job,
but the is a gulf between products like MSSQL and Oracle and PostgreSQL.
Yea, sure, you can get and use a lot of add-ons for PostgreSQL to do what
these systems can do, but many people can't or won't do that.

The "PostgreSQL Enhanced Server" (How's that name? Maybe we call it Zerver
and use PEZ?) idea is how to take the excellent core of PostgreSQL and
productize it in much the same way distributions take the Linux kernel and
may a GNU/Linux system.




> Even if I find the concepts as such very interesting, I think the term
> "Application Server" is very misleading. People would get very confused
> and
> place PostgreSQL in the same category as JBoss, Jonas, Apache Geronimo,
> IBM
> Websphere, BEA Weblogic to name a few well known App-servers.
>
> IMHO, you really need some other umbrella name for this.
>
> Kind regards,
>
> Thomas Hallgren
>
>
> ""Carl E. McMillin"" <carlymac@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:000801c4508b$8c2ef3a0$6500a8c0@DEVSONY...
> Jumping on that bandwagon with all 6 feet!
>
> Carl <|};-)>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org
> [mailto:pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org] On Behalf Of
> pgsql@mohawksoft.com
> Sent: Friday, June 11, 2004 9:38 PM
> To: pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org
> Subject: [HACKERS] I just got it: PostgreSQL Application Server -- a new
> project.
>
>
> I have been harping for the last few days (years, actually) about tweaks
> and
> changes to PostgreSQL for a number of reasons ranging from session
> management to static tables. I even had a notion to come up with msession
> on
> PostgreSQL.
>
> I have been incorporating full text search, recommendations, and a slew of
> other features into PostgreSQL, but you know what? While it does touch
> Postgre in a real sense, it is not strictly SQL. It is about how to create
> applications with PostgreSQL. That's what we're missing, Coneptually,
> PostgreSQL is strictly a database and the core team (rightly so) is
> fundimentally happy with that aspect of it.
>
> Maybe we need a pgfoundary project called "PostgreSQL Application Server."
> Like Apache Tomcat or regular apache or PHP, PostgreSQL could form the SQL
> base of a far more intricate and flexable framework that encompases a lot
> of
> the various features that could provide "application sever" features from
> PostgreSQL.
>
> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
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>     (send "unregister YourEmailAddressHere" to majordomo@postgresql.org)
>
>
>
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Sun, 13 Jun 2004 21:35:11 -0400 (EDT)
pgsql@mohawksoft.com
Re: I just got it: PostgreSQL Application Server -- a 
>The "PostgreSQL Enhanced Server" (How's that name? Maybe we call it Zerver
>and use PEZ?) idea is how to take the excellent core of PostgreSQL and
>productize it in much the same way distributions take the Linux kernel and
>may a GNU/Linux system.
>
>  
>
It would seem to me that this is more correct in the commercial space. 
Of course I am biased but
what you are talking about sounds a whole lot like RedHat Enterprise 
versus Fedora etc....

J




>
>
>  
>
>>Even if I find the concepts as such very interesting, I think the term
>>"Application Server" is very misleading. People would get very confused
>>and
>>place PostgreSQL in the same category as JBoss, Jonas, Apache Geronimo,
>>IBM
>>Websphere, BEA Weblogic to name a few well known App-servers.
>>
>>IMHO, you really need some other umbrella name for this.
>>
>>Kind regards,
>>
>>Thomas Hallgren
>>
>>
>>""Carl E. McMillin"" <carlymac@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>>news:000801c4508b$8c2ef3a0$6500a8c0@DEVSONY...
>>Jumping on that bandwagon with all 6 feet!
>>
>>Carl <|};-)>
>>
>>
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org
>>[mailto:pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org] On Behalf Of
>>pgsql@mohawksoft.com
>>Sent: Friday, June 11, 2004 9:38 PM
>>To: pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org
>>Subject: [HACKERS] I just got it: PostgreSQL Application Server -- a new
>>project.
>>
>>
>>I have been harping for the last few days (years, actually) about tweaks
>>and
>>changes to PostgreSQL for a number of reasons ranging from session
>>management to static tables. I even had a notion to come up with msession
>>on
>>PostgreSQL.
>>
>>I have been incorporating full text search, recommendations, and a slew of
>>other features into PostgreSQL, but you know what? While it does touch
>>Postgre in a real sense, it is not strictly SQL. It is about how to create
>>applications with PostgreSQL. That's what we're missing, Coneptually,
>>PostgreSQL is strictly a database and the core team (rightly so) is
>>fundimentally happy with that aspect of it.
>>
>>Maybe we need a pgfoundary project called "PostgreSQL Application Server."
>>Like Apache Tomcat or regular apache or PHP, PostgreSQL could form the SQL
>>base of a far more intricate and flexable framework that encompases a lot
>>of
>>the various features that could provide "application sever" features from
>>PostgreSQL.
>>
>>---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
>>TIP 2: you can get off all lists at once with the unregister command
>>    (send "unregister YourEmailAddressHere" to majordomo@postgresql.org)
>>
>>
>>
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>>
>>
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>>
>>    
>>
>
>
>---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
>TIP 7: don't forget to increase your free space map settings
>  
>


-- 
Command Prompt, Inc., home of Mammoth PostgreSQL - S/ODBC and S/JDBC
Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting.
+1-503-667-4564 - jd@commandprompt.com - http://www.commandprompt.com
PostgreSQL Replicator -- production quality replication for PostgreSQL










The "PostgreSQL Enhanced Server" (How's that name? Maybe we call it Zerver
and use PEZ?) idea is how to take the excellent core of PostgreSQL and
productize it in much the same way distributions take the Linux kernel and
may a GNU/Linux system.

  

It would seem to me that this is more correct in the commercial space.
Of course I am biased but
what you are talking about sounds a whole lot like RedHat Enterprise
versus Fedora etc....

J








  

Even if I find the concepts as such very interesting, I think the term
"Application Server" is very misleading. People would get very confused
and
place PostgreSQL in the same category as JBoss, Jonas, Apache Geronimo,
IBM
Websphere, BEA Weblogic to name a few well known App-servers.

IMHO, you really need some other umbrella name for this.

Kind regards,

Thomas Hallgren


""Carl E. McMillin"" <carlymac@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:000801c4508b$8c2ef3a0$6500a8c0@DEVSONY...
Jumping on that bandwagon with all 6 feet!

Carl <|};-)>



-----Original Message-----
From: pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org
[mailto:pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org] On Behalf Of
pgsql@mohawksoft.com
Sent: Friday, June 11, 2004 9:38 PM
To: pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org
Subject: [HACKERS] I just got it: PostgreSQL Application Server -- a new
project.


I have been harping for the last few days (years, actually) about tweaks
and
changes to PostgreSQL for a number of reasons ranging from session
management to static tables. I even had a notion to come up with msession
on
PostgreSQL.

I have been incorporating full text search, recommendations, and a slew of
other features into PostgreSQL, but you know what? While it does touch
Postgre in a real sense, it is not strictly SQL. It is about how to create
applications with PostgreSQL. That's what we're missing, Coneptually,
PostgreSQL is strictly a database and the core team (rightly so) is
fundimentally happy with that aspect of it.

Maybe we need a pgfoundary project called "PostgreSQL Application Server."
Like Apache Tomcat or regular apache or PHP, PostgreSQL could form the SQL
base of a far more intricate and flexable framework that encompases a lot
of
the various features that could provide "application sever" features from
PostgreSQL.

---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
TIP 2: you can get off all lists at once with the unregister command
    (send "unregister YourEmailAddressHere" to majordomo@postgresql.org)



---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
TIP 1: subscribe and unsubscribe commands go to majordomo@postgresql.org


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-- 
Command Prompt, Inc., home of Mammoth PostgreSQL - S/ODBC and S/JDBC
Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting.
+1-503-667-4564 - jd@commandprompt.com - http://www.commandprompt.com
PostgreSQL Replicator -- production quality replication for PostgreSQL
Sun, 13 Jun 2004 20:50:40 -0700
"Joshua D. Drake" <jd@commandprompt.com>
Re: I just got it: PostgreSQL Application Server -- a


Joshua D. Drake wrote:

>
>>The "PostgreSQL Enhanced Server" (How's that name? Maybe we call it Zerver
>>and use PEZ?) idea is how to take the excellent core of PostgreSQL and
>>productize it in much the same way distributions take the Linux kernel and
>>may a GNU/Linux system.
>>
>>  
>>
> It would seem to me that this is more correct in the commercial space. 
> Of course I am biased but
> what you are talking about sounds a whole lot like RedHat Enterprise 
> versus Fedora etc....
>
And Postgresql Inc, Command Prompt, Slony etc...

regards

Mark


Mon, 14 Jun 2004 20:52:25 +1200
Mark Kirkwood <markir@coretech.co.nz>
Re: I just got it: PostgreSQL Application Server -- a
>
>>The "PostgreSQL Enhanced Server" (How's that name? Maybe we call it
>> Zerver
>>and use PEZ?) idea is how to take the excellent core of PostgreSQL and
>>productize it in much the same way distributions take the Linux kernel
>> and
>>may a GNU/Linux system.
>>
>>
>>
> It would seem to me that this is more correct in the commercial space.
> Of course I am biased but
> what you are talking about sounds a whole lot like RedHat Enterprise
> versus Fedora etc....

No, I don't think I agree. It does not need to be "Commercial" as it is
similar to Apache Jacarta too.

If you are going to do a complex project with PostgreSQL, you sort of have
a lot of construction ahead of you. Yea, it is a great SQL engine, but to
build a high speed web site, or virtually any complex project, you will
need a lot of add-ons.  Rather than have everyone duplate the effort of
finding the extensions, why not have a project with all this stuff
installed. AFAIK, and correct me if I'm wrong, having functions installed
doesn't affect performance.



Mon, 14 Jun 2004 07:40:27 -0400 (EDT)
pgsql@mohawksoft.com
Re: I just got it: PostgreSQL Application Server -- a