This mail was sent to pgadmin-hackers list by Mark Radulovich 
<radulovich@yahoo.com>. It is quite interesting:

*************************************************************************************
I've been following these mailing lists for over two years, and I guess now
 is the time to chime in. I agree with Tom that an organized effort is
 necessary. As such, I'd recommend the following:

1 - Revamp the website. It's not bad, but it should be better designed to
highlight things for new users as well as all of the documentation that is on
it (I usually go to google instead of clicking around the website). I think
 the basic site should have four key sections  - Application Developers,
 Database Admins, PG Core Developers, News & Downloads.

2 - Get a list of people who can help with benchmarking efforts. This should
 be for magazines/websites that want to benchmark PG against the competition,
 as well as benchmarking PG on various hardware with various options. This
 could even start out as a simple "Benchmarking PG FAQ"

3 - Revamp the "Developer's Corner". I'm a web developer, not a PG developer,
but I still went here looking for info on building apps in Java, PHP, Perl,
 etc that need to connect to PG on the backend. This is probably a simple
 rename, but application developers need a more prominent area.

4 - Reach out and talk to authors & developers. We have a great database here
 - let's tell the world. This can be simple - identify the major magazines &
 web sites, rank order them by relevant audience. Then, make sure we contact
 someone at each site once a month, and that they get press releases via
 email. (email is essentially free, so why not send them out to all the
 magazines/web sites?)

5 - Show off PGAdmin!!! You'd think it was just an afterthought when looking
around the web site. We should promote that as a great tool to manage PG, so
that MS users can get the courage to try it out. We can't market it like MS
 can (unless someone around here dhas $40 billion lying around), but we can
 sure make PGAdmin more prominent on the site.

6 - Improve the Windows port. I am convinced that mySQL is popular because a
windows user can download Apache, PHP, and mySQL onto his machine and learn
 how it works. When he's ready, he can move to *nix. PG doesn't have that
 advantage (no newbie is going to mess with cygwin setup on his Windows 98
 machine). Also, just because Windows is not an optimal database platform
 doesn't mean we shouldn't serve it better - a lot of people (myself
 included) cut their teeth on Windows computers, simply because they cannot
 afford the time or money to learn another OS just to be able to use a
 database.

7 - A simple thing, really. Can someone change the order of the months on the
mailing list archive home page? Scrolling down for 66 months, just to click
 on the "by date" or "by thread" link for the current month just bugs me.
 Whether this is possible or not, I don't know - I just wanted to comment
 about it because I'm sure there are others with the same complaint.


Anyway, these are just a couple of ideas I have. I have used PG since 7.0,
 and have been incredibly happy with it. As for any competition with MySQL,
 so what? Let's learn from what they do better than us, and use that to
 increase our visibility.


On a side note, I'd like to thank *all* of the people that have contributed
 to PG. I started out in the open source database world with MySQL, but have
 grown to love the reliability of PG. For the last several years, I have been
 responsible for several MS SQL Server 2000 (and 7.0) servers. They have an
 easy to use database, in that Enterprise Manager is almost as simple as
 Access (no flames, please!). They also market the heck out of it. I never
 knew that PG would ever be as easy to use - until I used PGAdmin. I can only
 say one thing - WOW! (although I still use the command line - old habits die
 hard...) Anyway, thanks to all of you for allowing me to play (and work!)
 with such a great database.

Regards,
Mark Radulovich

PS - I'm willing to donate time to the website and the other items listed
above.

======================
Tom Lane wrote:

Josh Berkus <josh@agliodbs.com> writes:
Frankly, my feeling is, as a "geek-to-geek" product, PostgreSQL is already
adequately marketed through our huge network of DBA users and code
contributors.

Well, mumble ... it seems to me that we are definitely suffering from
a "buzz gap" (cf missile gap, Dr Strangelove, etc) compared to MySQL.
That doesn't bother me in itself, but the long-term implications are
scary.  If MySQL manages to attract a larger development community as
a consequence of more usage or better marketing, then eventually they
will be ahead of us on features and every other measure that counts.
Once we're number two with no prayer of catching up, how long will our
project remain viable?  So, no matter how silly you might think
"MySQL is better" is today, you've got to consider the prospect that
it will become a self-fulfilling prophecy.

So far I have not worried about that scenario too much, because Monty
has always treated the MySQL sources as his personal preserve; if he
hadn't written it or closely reviewed it, it didn't get in, and if it
didn't hew closely to his opinion of what's important, it didn't get in.
But I get the impression that he's loosened up of late.  If MySQL stops
being limited by what one guy can do or review, their rate of progress
could improve dramatically.

In short: we could use an organized marketing effort.  I really
feel the lack of Great Bridge these days; there isn't anyone with
comparable willingness to expend marketing talent and dollars on
promoting Postgres as such.  Not sure what to do about it.  We've
sort of dismissed Jean-Michel's comments (and those of others in
the past) with "sure, step right up and do the marketing" responses.
But the truth of the matter is that a few amateurs with no budget
won't make much of an impression.  We really need some professionals
with actual dollars to spend, and I don't know where to find 'em.

            regards, tom lane


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---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
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Wed, 26 Jun 2002 11:55:57 +0200
Mark Radulovich <radulovich@yahoo.com>(by way of Jean-Michel POURE
	<jm.poure@freesurf.fr>)
Marketing PostgreSQL
I guess the website is really good. The only thing I'd do is to add a 
section listing the core features of PostgreSQL - I think this could be 
an important point.

In my opinion MySQL is not a competitor and we should not benchmark 
PostgreSQL and compare it with MySQL. Those features which are really 
important are not supported and so it is just not possible to make a 
serious comparison unless you want to benchmark databases containing 300 
records or so ...
Speed is not the only thing and it can lead to false results. Let's 
thinks of an example:
Let think of a table containing 300 records and you want to :

SELECT cosh(x) FROM y HAVING cosh(x) > z;

How can anybody implement cosh for MySQL??? In this case the benchmark 
cannot be done - in the case of MySQL the problem has to be solved on an 
application level. These are the REAL ADVANTAGES of PostgreSQL and this 
the reason why people are using it. I think it is not work talking about 
small databases and simple queries. We should focus on stability and 
extensibility and not on "SELECT 'micky mouse' FROM smalltable".

PostgreSQL is the most advanced database on earth and that counts.
These days we are negotiating with a potential customer who wants to 
substitute Oracle on AIX for PostgreSQL on AIX because of costs and 
extensibility. We did NOT choose MySQL because he has the impression 
that MySQL people focus on speed rather than on reliability and 
extensibility. I think that shows what things are all about.

I am not happy about the Windows port - maybe it will cause a lot of 
troubles in real applications due to problems related to Windows.

Let's do enterprise computing and don't let us build a database for 
minor Web databases.

    Hans


Mark Radulovich (by way of Jean-Michel POURE ) wrote:

>This mail was sent to pgadmin-hackers list by Mark Radulovich 
><radulovich@yahoo.com>. It is quite interesting:
>
>*************************************************************************************
>I've been following these mailing lists for over two years, and I guess now
> is the time to chime in. I agree with Tom that an organized effort is
> necessary. As such, I'd recommend the following:
>
>1 - Revamp the website. It's not bad, but it should be better designed to
>highlight things for new users as well as all of the documentation that is on
>it (I usually go to google instead of clicking around the website). I think
> the basic site should have four key sections  - Application Developers,
> Database Admins, PG Core Developers, News & Downloads.
>
>2 - Get a list of people who can help with benchmarking efforts. This should
> be for magazines/websites that want to benchmark PG against the competition,
> as well as benchmarking PG on various hardware with various options. This
> could even start out as a simple "Benchmarking PG FAQ"
>
>3 - Revamp the "Developer's Corner". I'm a web developer, not a PG developer,
>but I still went here looking for info on building apps in Java, PHP, Perl,
> etc that need to connect to PG on the backend. This is probably a simple
> rename, but application developers need a more prominent area.
>
>4 - Reach out and talk to authors & developers. We have a great database here
> - let's tell the world. This can be simple - identify the major magazines &
> web sites, rank order them by relevant audience. Then, make sure we contact
> someone at each site once a month, and that they get press releases via
> email. (email is essentially free, so why not send them out to all the
> magazines/web sites?)
>
>5 - Show off PGAdmin!!! You'd think it was just an afterthought when looking
>around the web site. We should promote that as a great tool to manage PG, so
>that MS users can get the courage to try it out. We can't market it like MS
> can (unless someone around here dhas $40 billion lying around), but we can
> sure make PGAdmin more prominent on the site.
>
>6 - Improve the Windows port. I am convinced that mySQL is popular because a
>windows user can download Apache, PHP, and mySQL onto his machine and learn
> how it works. When he's ready, he can move to *nix. PG doesn't have that
> advantage (no newbie is going to mess with cygwin setup on his Windows 98
> machine). Also, just because Windows is not an optimal database platform
> doesn't mean we shouldn't serve it better - a lot of people (myself
> included) cut their teeth on Windows computers, simply because they cannot
> afford the time or money to learn another OS just to be able to use a
> database.
>
>7 - A simple thing, really. Can someone change the order of the months on the
>mailing list archive home page? Scrolling down for 66 months, just to click
> on the "by date" or "by thread" link for the current month just bugs me.
> Whether this is possible or not, I don't know - I just wanted to comment
> about it because I'm sure there are others with the same complaint.
>
>
>Anyway, these are just a couple of ideas I have. I have used PG since 7.0,
> and have been incredibly happy with it. As for any competition with MySQL,
> so what? Let's learn from what they do better than us, and use that to
> increase our visibility.
>
>  
>

-- 
Cybertec Geschwinde &. Schoenig
Ludo-Hartmannplatz 1/14; A-1160 Wien
Tel.: +43/1/913 68 09 oder +43/664/233 90 75
URL: www.postgresql.at, www.cybertec.at, www.python.co.at, www.openldap.at






Wed, 26 Jun 2002 17:23:19 +0200
=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Hans-J=FCrgen_Sch=F6nig?= <postgres@cybertec.at>
Re: Marketing PostgreSQL