> How about phppgadmin? I haven't checked in depth but
> it seems to be able to
> do quite a lot of these.

Yes, and pgaccess too, but I see cons in these two
tools:

- Pgaccess looks a bit poor. Tcl/Tk is not the
definitive user interface toolkit. Yes, it is enough
for many things, but not for all.

- Phppgadmin is a web based tool. You need a php
enabled web server. Most end users/admins don't want
to have to configure a web server, PHP ("what is
PHP?") and to have a poor interface (I'm talking about
web based interfaces in general, not the phppgadmin in
particular).

- Both of them have limitations of what they can
manage. You can't use them to backup/restore the
database, to edit/see the postgresql configuration, to
monitor the server(s), to start/stop server(s), ...
It's dificult to take an _employer_, who only wants to
do his job and go home, and say to him that we are
going to replace the Oracle and SQLServer databases
with Postgresql databases. In fact there are more
reasons that the interface, but you are working
already in the other problems and solving they fine.
To say it briefly if an average IT manager asks you to
"show him PostgreSQL" and you open pgsql or pgaccess
you are done. Sad but true.


> Michael
> -- 
> Michael Meskes
> Michael@Fam-Meskes.De
> Go SF 49ers! Go Rhein Fire!
> Use Debian GNU/Linux! Use PostgreSQL!

Pedro


_______________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Messenger: Comunicaciï¿½n instantï¿½nea gratis con tu gente -
http://messenger.yahoo.es

Wed, 20 Jun 2001 09:13:13 +0200 (CEST)
=?iso-8859-1?q?Pedro=20Abelleira=20Seco?= <pedroabelleira@yahoo.es>
RE: Universal admin frontend
> - Both of them have limitations of what they can
> manage. You can't use them to backup/restore the
> database, to edit/see the postgresql configuration, to
> monitor the server(s), to start/stop server(s), ...
> It's dificult to take an _employer_, who only wants to
> do his job and go home, and say to him that we are
> going to replace the Oracle and SQLServer databases
> with Postgresql databases. In fact there are more
> reasons that the interface, but you are working
> already in the other problems and solving they fine.
> To say it briefly if an average IT manager asks you to
> "show him PostgreSQL" and you open pgsql or pgaccess
> you are done. Sad but true.

What about a KDE or Gnome piece of software?  In fact, I believe that such a
project may already be in its infancy...

Chris


Wed, 20 Jun 2001 16:23:57 +0800
"Christopher Kings-Lynne" <chriskl@familyhealth.com.au>
RE: RE: Universal admin frontend
On Wed, Jun 20, 2001 at 09:13:13AM +0200, Pedro Abelleira Seco wrote:
> - Phppgadmin is a web based tool. You need a php
> enabled web server. Most end users/admins don't want
> to have to configure a web server, PHP ("what is
> PHP?") and to have a poor interface (I'm talking about
> web based interfaces in general, not the phppgadmin in
> particular).

Maybe, but then you are platform independent.

> - Both of them have limitations of what they can
> manage. You can't use them to backup/restore the
> database, to edit/see the postgresql configuration, to
> monitor the server(s), to start/stop server(s), ...

Correct. You need another sort of tool for that. If you go web based webmin
can do most of this, or at least aims at this.

> To say it briefly if an average IT manager asks you to
> "show him PostgreSQL" and you open pgsql or pgaccess
> you are done. Sad but true.

[I assume you mean psql with pgsql.]

Yes, but could show him that there are such tools with Oracle too. Sqlplus
is no better than psql for that matter. If you want to add your commands
inside a graphic tool you could use mpsql/kpsql which are unfortunately not
maintained anymore. Note, that I do not say the tools are there for all your
needs, but that I think there are quite some tools worth extending. I don't
think what we need is another tool that does parts of the job, but an effort
to build the one tool you can use for all of this. If this has to start from
scratch so be it. But maybe it's good idea to improve some other tool.

Michael
-- 
Michael Meskes
Michael@Fam-Meskes.De
Go SF 49ers! Go Rhein Fire!
Use Debian GNU/Linux! Use PostgreSQL!

Wed, 20 Jun 2001 10:43:35 +0200
Michael Meskes <meskes@postgresql.org>
Re: RE: Universal admin frontend
> What about a KDE or Gnome piece of software?  In
> fact, I believe that such a
> project may already be in its infancy...

Yes, I could be, but no all systems have one of them
installed or even installable (think not only about
Linux, but all the platforms in wich Postgres run,
Windows too)
Other advantage of the Java/Swing aproach, apart from
its portability, is that is easy to program in that
platform. I have programed for KDE and have done a
little test against both gtk+, gtk--, but Java is
another level. Suddenly all is easy, you can do what
you can imagine. I don't want to start a flamewar
about the best programming language. I only say that
for this kind of task Java is the only platform in
wich I feel sure about what can be done and when it
can be.

> 
> Chris
> 

Pedro

_______________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Messenger: Comunicaciï¿½n instantï¿½nea gratis con tu gente -
http://messenger.yahoo.es

Wed, 20 Jun 2001 12:04:08 +0200 (CEST)
=?iso-8859-1?q?Pedro=20Abelleira=20Seco?= <pedroabelleira@yahoo.es>
RE: RE: Universal admin frontend
On Wed, 20 Jun 2001, Christopher Kings-Lynne wrote:

> > - Both of them have limitations of what they can
> > manage. You can't use them to backup/restore the
> > database, to edit/see the postgresql configuration, to
> > monitor the server(s), to start/stop server(s), ...
> > It's dificult to take an _employer_, who only wants to
> > do his job and go home, and say to him that we are
> > going to replace the Oracle and SQLServer databases
> > with Postgresql databases. In fact there are more
> > reasons that the interface, but you are working
> > already in the other problems and solving they fine.
> > To say it briefly if an average IT manager asks you to
> > "show him PostgreSQL" and you open pgsql or pgaccess
> > you are done. Sad but true.
>
> What about a KDE or Gnome piece of software?  In fact, I believe that such a
> project may already be in its infancy...

Please, dont' depend on those things. A lot of people dont' like
KDE, Gnome. Pure Gtk would be enough for such a project.

>
> Chris
>
>
> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
> TIP 1: subscribe and unsubscribe commands go to majordomo@postgresql.org
>

	Regards,
		Oleg
_____________________________________________________________
Oleg Bartunov, sci.researcher, hostmaster of AstroNet,
Sternberg Astronomical Institute, Moscow University (Russia)
Internet: oleg@sai.msu.su, http://www.sai.msu.su/~megera/
phone: +007(095)939-16-83, +007(095)939-23-83


Wed, 20 Jun 2001 13:26:56 +0300 (GMT)
Oleg Bartunov <oleg@sai.msu.su>
RE: RE: Universal admin frontend
+1 for implementation in java. While it isn't the fastest it is platform
independant.

I would also suggest starting with something like druid, and making it
postgres specific.

Dave
----- Original Message -----
From: "Oleg Bartunov" <oleg@sai.msu.su>
To: "Christopher Kings-Lynne" <chriskl@familyhealth.com.au>
Cc: "Pedro Abelleira Seco" <pedroabelleira@yahoo.es>;
<pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2001 6:26 AM
Subject: RE: [HACKERS] RE: Universal admin frontend


> On Wed, 20 Jun 2001, Christopher Kings-Lynne wrote:
>
> > > - Both of them have limitations of what they can
> > > manage. You can't use them to backup/restore the
> > > database, to edit/see the postgresql configuration, to
> > > monitor the server(s), to start/stop server(s), ...
> > > It's dificult to take an _employer_, who only wants to
> > > do his job and go home, and say to him that we are
> > > going to replace the Oracle and SQLServer databases
> > > with Postgresql databases. In fact there are more
> > > reasons that the interface, but you are working
> > > already in the other problems and solving they fine.
> > > To say it briefly if an average IT manager asks you to
> > > "show him PostgreSQL" and you open pgsql or pgaccess
> > > you are done. Sad but true.
> >
> > What about a KDE or Gnome piece of software?  In fact, I believe that
such a
> > project may already be in its infancy...
>
> Please, dont' depend on those things. A lot of people dont' like
> KDE, Gnome. Pure Gtk would be enough for such a project.
>
> >
> > Chris
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
> > TIP 1: subscribe and unsubscribe commands go to majordomo@postgresql.org
> >
>
> Regards,
> Oleg
> _____________________________________________________________
> Oleg Bartunov, sci.researcher, hostmaster of AstroNet,
> Sternberg Astronomical Institute, Moscow University (Russia)
> Internet: oleg@sai.msu.su, http://www.sai.msu.su/~megera/
> phone: +007(095)939-16-83, +007(095)939-23-83
>
>
> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
> TIP 1: subscribe and unsubscribe commands go to majordomo@postgresql.org
>
>


Wed, 20 Jun 2001 07:16:21 -0400
"Dave Cramer" <dave@fastcrypt.com>
Re: RE: Universal admin frontend
On Wed, 20 Jun 2001, Oleg Bartunov wrote:

> > What about a KDE or Gnome piece of software?  In fact, I believe that such a
> > project may already be in its infancy...
>
> Please, dont' depend on those things. A lot of people dont' like
> KDE, Gnome. Pure Gtk would be enough for such a project.

I think people go ahead and throw the KDE and Gnome functionality into a
piece of software just because they can (maybe because they like it as a
buzzword?).  Pure GTK would be best if that is the type of app you are
wanting to code and if you do decide to include gnome functionality -
don't make it some intwined with the rest of the code that their can't be
a --without-gnome switch to the configure program.

I do agree that java would be the best way to go.  I kinda cringe to say
that because most java apps I have seen are pretty lousy and buggy
(personal opinion - no need for flames or holy wars here).  I will say the
only java application I really did like was the java tools that Oracle
ships with their product.  Very nice, very fast and fairly stable (in my
experience) - so I know that a nice product can be made if the right
people worked on it and enough thought went into the project.

-- 
//========================================================\\
||  D. Hageman                    <dhageman@dracken.com>  ||
\\========================================================//


Wed, 20 Jun 2001 10:22:36 -0500 (CDT)
"D. Hageman" <dhageman@dracken.com>
RE: RE: Universal admin frontend
Michael Meskes wrote:

>On Wed, Jun 20, 2001 at 09:13:13AM +0200, Pedro Abelleira Seco wrote:
>
>>- Phppgadmin is a web based tool. You need a PHP
>>enabled web server. Most end users/admins don't want
>>to have to configure a web server, PHP ("what is
>>PHP?") and to have a poor interface (I'm talking about
>>web based interfaces in general, not the phppgadmin in
>>particular).
>>
>
>Maybe, but then you are platform independent.
>

First, we need a set of tasks that the software would need to be able to 
do. These tasks, may answer your questions or at least help decide which 
environment would best suit your admin tool.

AFIAA, there exists a port of Java for just about every OS that 
PostgreSQL supports, not that it should be the only reason for choosing 
it.  Not that my vote counts, but I'd go for the java approach and be 
willing to code a lot on the interface, anyone else interested?

To start this list off, the Good Idea (tm):

    * User Management
          * Create
          * List
          * Modify
                * Change Password
                * Grant permissions
                * Group Membership
          * Delete
    *  Database Management
          * Create
          * List
          * Modify
                * Tables
                * Constraints
                * Rules
                * Owners/Permissions
          * Delete
    * Maintenance
          * Vacuum
          * Analyze
    * Monitoring
          * Statistics


This is one of the big things that PostgreSQL has been missing for 
sometime.  Personally, I believe that it would benefit both developers 
and users.

Regardless, that's my two bits...






Michael Meskes wrote:
On Wed, Jun 20, 2001 at 09:13:13AM +0200, Pedro Abelleira Seco wrote:
- Phppgadmin is a web based tool. You need a PHPenabled web server. Most end users/admins don't wantto have to configure a web server, PHP ("what isPHP?") and to have a poor interface (I'm talking aboutweb based interfaces in general, not the phppgadmin inparticular).

Maybe, but then you are platform independent.


First, we need a set of tasks that the software would need to be able to
do. These tasks, may answer your questions or at least help decide which
environment would best suit your admin tool.

AFIAA, there exists a port of Java for just about every OS that PostgreSQL
 supports, not that it should be the only reason for choosing it.  Not that 
my vote counts, but I'd go for the java approach and be willing to code a 
lot on the interface, anyone else interested?

To start this list off, the Good Idea (tm):


User Management

Create
List

Modify

Change Password
Grant permissions
Group Membership

Delete

 Database Management

Create
List

Modify

Tables
Constraints
Rules
Owners/Permissions


Delete

Maintenance

Vacuum
Analyze

Monitoring


Statistics




This is one of the big things that PostgreSQL has been missing for sometime.
 Personally, I believe that it would benefit both developers and users.

Regardless, that's my two bits...
Wed, 20 Jun 2001 10:28:22 -0500
Thomas Swan <tswan@olemiss.edu>
Re: Universal admin frontend
On Wed, Jun 20, 2001 at 09:13:13AM +0200, Pedro Abelleira Seco wrote:
> To say it briefly if an average IT manager asks you to
> "show him PostgreSQL" and you open pgsql or pgaccess
> you are done. Sad but true.
> 

Well, then open Access. What do you do when the same manager wants to
see your web server? Open IE?

Ross

Wed, 20 Jun 2001 10:40:07 -0500
"Ross J. Reedstrom" <reedstrm@rice.edu>
Re: RE: Universal admin frontend
AFIAA, there exists a port of Java for just about every OS that PostgreSQL supports, not that it should be the only reason for choosing it.  Not that my vote counts, but I'd go for the java approach and be willing to code a lot on the interface, anyone else interested?

Anyone thought about wxPython? Much faster then java, can be distributed as a standalone executable on Windows.  Supports Unix / Mac / Windows.  Don't know if it supports more or less PG relevant platforms than Java.  I have been thinking about working on this type of tool myself.







AFIAA, there exists a port of Java for just about every OS that PostgreSQL 
supports, not that it should be the only reason for choosing it.  Not that 
my vote counts, but I'd go for the java approach and be willing to code a lot on 
the interface, anyone else interested?Anyone 
thought about wxPython? Much faster then java, can be distributed as a 
standalone executable on Windows.  Supports Unix / Mac / Windows.  
Don't know if it supports more or less PG relevant platforms than Java.  I 
have been thinking about working on this type of tool 
myself.
Wed, 20 Jun 2001 23:21:31 -0500
"Matthew T. O'Connor" <matthew@zeut.net>
Re: Re: Universal admin frontend
Hello!

Why not go back to the roots of postgres?

PostgreSQL is written completely in C. The development community has
shown that it is
possible to write efficient code for different platforms with pure C.

The administration task can be separated in 2 different tasks:
A server (in C) which is really doing the administrative work.
A client programm written in what so ever (C + X11, Java, Perl, TCL/Tk,
....) which
performs the user interface.

I know that this a not the easiest way to do the job but the most
flexible (in my opinion).

--
Mit freundlichen Gruessen / With best regards
   Reiner Dassing

Thu, 21 Jun 2001 08:13:21 +0200
Reiner Dassing <dassing@wettzell.ifag.de>
Re: RE: Universal admin frontend