Hi everyone,

Dave Page put up a new survey on the PostgreSQL portal page very 
recently, " What would attract the most new PostgreSQL users?" and the 
results in already are interesting (1,529 results as this is being written):

http://www.postgresql.org/survey.php?SurveyID=9

Listed from most voted for to least voted for we have:

***********

Answer            Responses Percentage

More speed           505      33.028%
Win32 Port           390      25.507%
Replication          386      25.245%
Better docs          160      10.464%
More features         32       2.093%
Better marketing      29       1.897%
Better migration      18       1.177%
PITR                   9       0.589%

Total number of responses: 1529

***********

Now, we don't necessarily have a speed problem, as people who take the 
time to tune the database can attest to, so this is making me consider 
why such a large percentage of folk would vote for that.

The possibilities that come to mind immediately are:

  + People don't know that they should tune the database, and are 
leaving the configuration settings at the defaults.

    We could adjust the perception of PostgreSQL's speed for these
    people by adjusting the default settings.  We were already
    considering raising the memory buffer defaults weren't we?


  + People are having troubles related to VACUUM.

    This is being worked on presently isn't it?


  + People don't know *how* to tune the database properly yet?


  + Maybe we need more inbuilt self-tuning abilities or utilities for 
PostgreSQL?


Other interesting conclusions can be drawn from the results too, one of 
which is that only about 2% of people are asking for more features, and 
also that only about 2% are looking for better marketing.

Anyway, thought this worth bringing to people's attention, as we may 
find some value in it.

:-)

Regards and best wishes,

Justin Clift

-- 
"My grandfather once told me that there are two kinds of people: those
who work and those who take the credit. He told me to try to be in the
first group; there was less competition there."
- Indira Gandhi


Mon, 20 Jan 2003 00:50:12 +1030
Justin Clift <justin@postgresql.org>
Survey results from the PostgreSQL portal page
On Sunday 19 January 2003 09:20, Justin Clift wrote:
> Dave Page put up a new survey on the PostgreSQL portal page very
> recently, " What would attract the most new PostgreSQL users?" and the
> results in already are interesting (1,529 results as this is being
> written):
>
> http://www.postgresql.org/survey.php?SurveyID=9
>
> Listed from most voted for to least voted for we have:
>
> ***********
>
> Answer            Responses Percentage
>
> More speed           505      33.028%
> Win32 Port           390      25.507%
> Replication          386      25.245%
> Better docs          160      10.464%
> More features         32       2.093%
> Better marketing      29       1.897%
> Better migration      18       1.177%
> PITR                   9       0.589%
>
> Total number of responses: 1529

What I find interesting is that 25% voted for replication and only 1/2% voted 
for PITR.  I think that that shows that surveys are easily skewed by their 
own parameters.  People interested in both probably just voted for the one 
slightly higher on their wish list.

Anyway, interesting straw vote but let's not make critical decisions based on 
it.  It's not even a vote of the people looking for databases.  It's a vote 
of what those people want in the opinion of the people who voted.

> Now, we don't necessarily have a speed problem, as people who take the
> time to tune the database can attest to, so this is making me consider
> why such a large percentage of folk would vote for that.

Need for speed.  It doesn't matter how fast we are, faster is always better.  
Other items are of the nature have or not have a feature and people may 
disagree whether we need the feature or not but who will ever say that more 
speed is not wanted?

-- 
D'Arcy J.M. Cain <darcy@{druid|vex}.net>   |  Democracy is three wolves
http://www.druid.net/darcy/                |  and a sheep voting on
+1 416 425 1212     (DoD#0082)    (eNTP)   |  what's for dinner.

Sun, 19 Jan 2003 09:43:03 -0500
"D'Arcy J.M. Cain" <darcy@druid.net>
Re: Survey results from the PostgreSQL portal page
On Sun, 2003-01-19 at 15:20, Justin Clift wrote:

> 
> Now, we don't necessarily have a speed problem, as people who take the 
> time to tune the database can attest to, so this is making me consider 
> why such a large percentage of folk would vote for that.
> 
> The possibilities that come to mind immediately are:

+ people measure postgresql by the speed of bulk imports

which seem to be faster on other dbs (I'm only repeating what I often
see on the lists), and don't consider that this is not something most
people do on a regular basis.

btw, PITR would get more hits if more people knew what it means... (Yes,
I know what it is, but I think many who don't read the mailing lists
etc. don't).

cheers
-- vbi

-- 
featured link: http://fortytwo.ch/gpg/subkeys
19 Jan 2003 15:47:14 +0100
Adrian 'Dagurashibanipal' von Bidder <avbidder@fortytwo.ch>
Re: Survey results from the PostgreSQL portal page
On Sun, 2003-01-19 at 14:20, Justin Clift wrote:

> Dave Page put up a new survey on the PostgreSQL portal page very 
> recently, " What would attract the most new PostgreSQL users?"
...
> Other interesting conclusions can be drawn from the results too, one of 
> which is that only about 2% of people are asking for more features, and 
> also that only about 2% are looking for better marketing.

I suspect the majority of those who responded are technical people who
despise marketing.  I also suspect that most people didn't answer the
question asked but instead said what they themselves most wanted.

But the only thing that will get many more users is much better
marketing.  If people don't hear about PostgreSQL, they will never even
think of using it.  I looked at the shelves of database books in
Blackwells in Oxford yesterday: lots on Oracle and Sql Server and DB and
several on MySQL.  There were 2 on Postgresql, and only one copy of
each.

I'd be interested to know what the commercial PostgreSQL companies think
about it

-- 
Oliver Elphick                                Oliver.Elphick@lfix.co.uk
Isle of Wight, UK                             http://www.lfix.co.uk/oliver
GPG: 1024D/3E1D0C1C: CA12 09E0 E8D5 8870 5839  932A 614D 4C34 3E1D 0C1C
                 ========================================
     "The LORD is my strength and song, and he is become my 
      salvation; he is my God, and I will prepare him an 
      habitation; my father's God, and I will exalt him."   
                       Exodus 15:2 


19 Jan 2003 16:03:47 +0000
Oliver Elphick <olly@lfix.co.uk>
Re: Survey results from the PostgreSQL portal page
>
>
>+ people measure postgresql by the speed of bulk imports
>  
>

This is a good point. I can complete agree. What we might need is 
something called "SQL Loader" or so. This may sound funny and it doesn't 
make technical sense but it is an OBVIOUS way of importing data. People 
often forget to use transactions or don't know about COPY. A perfectly 
documented tool called "SQL Loader" or so might help. This is mainly a 
marketing reason but according to the things I have seen this is true.

+ people think about MySQL and speed
People and magazines have MySQL in mind and this is a point which annoys 
me most. Why don't they just think about SAP DB or Oracle instead of 
MontySQL.

>which seem to be faster on other dbs (I'm only repeating what I often
>see on the lists), and don't consider that this is not something most
>people do on a regular basis.
>
>btw, PITR would get more hits if more people knew what it means... (Yes,
>I know what it is, but I think many who don't read the mailing lists
>etc. don't).
>  
>

People with more experience will ask for more high level features.
People need to get started quickly so that they will find out about the 
advantages of a database. Features have to be obvious because other way 
people with not much experience won't look for it.

Also: At least once a week somebody is asking for replication. 
Replication, clustering, hot failover, and so forth are definitely the 
features which are asked by companies.

I wonder why people ask for better documentation. I think the 
documentation is really good. Ever read Oracle stuff? *ugh*.

    Hans

-- 
*Cybertec Geschwinde u Schoenig*
Ludo-Hartmannplatz 1/14, A-1160 Vienna, Austria
Tel: +43/1/913 68 09; +43/664/233 90 75
www.postgresql.at <http://www.postgresql.at>, cluster.postgresql.at 
<http://cluster.postgresql.at>, www.cybertec.at 
<http://www.cybertec.at>, kernel.cybertec.at <http://kernel.cybertec.at>



Sun, 19 Jan 2003 17:13:10 +0100
=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Hans-J=FCrgen_Sch=F6nig?= <postgres@cybertec.at>
Re: Survey results from the PostgreSQL portal page
Justin Clift <justin@postgresql.org> writes:
> Dave Page put up a new survey on the PostgreSQL portal page very 
> recently, " What would attract the most new PostgreSQL users?" and the 
> results in already are interesting (1,529 results as this is being written):
> [snip]
> Now, we don't necessarily have a speed problem, as people who take the 
> time to tune the database can attest to, so this is making me consider 
> why such a large percentage of folk would vote for that.

Interesting question.  Too bad the survey didn't ask *what* they find
slow.

> Other interesting conclusions can be drawn from the results too, one of 
> which is that only about 2% of people are asking for more features, and 
> also that only about 2% are looking for better marketing.

Of course, this is a survey of people who already know about Postgres,
and are sufficiently interested in using it to have visited the website.
So really, people who need to be marketed to weren't surveyed.  The low
vote for that point is probably just survey skew.

			regards, tom lane

Sun, 19 Jan 2003 11:22:54 -0500
Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
Re: Survey results from the PostgreSQL portal page 
On Sun, Jan 19, 2003 at 09:43:03AM -0500, D'Arcy J.M. Cain wrote:
> What I find interesting is that 25% voted for replication and only 1/2% voted 
> for PITR.  I think that that shows that surveys are easily skewed by their 
> own parameters.  People interested in both probably just voted for the one 
> slightly higher on their wish list.

This one surprised me too. Almost all companies I talked to abolut
PostgreSQL ask for PITR. Yes, many also ask for replication, but the
amount is much lower.

Michael
-- 
Michael Meskes
Email: Michael@Fam-Meskes.De
ICQ: 179140304
Go SF 49ers! Go Rhein Fire! Use Debian GNU/Linux! Use PostgreSQL!

Sun, 19 Jan 2003 17:27:50 +0100
Michael Meskes <meskes@postgresql.org>
Re: Survey results from the PostgreSQL portal page
> I wonder why people ask for better documentation. I think the 
> documentation is really good. Ever read Oracle stuff? *ugh*.

They want examples of real-world usage.  The commands themselves have
good 'HOW TO' notes, and an explanation of what they are, but we don't
really have anything on 'WHY?'.

A large number of people coming from MySQL, or just starting out don't
know what feature XYZ can do for them, and why it's best (easiest) for
the database to do that work -- regardless of what that Java programmer
thinks beans are for. Much of this can probably be borrowed from books
on basics.

-- 
Rod Taylor <rbt@rbt.ca>

PGP Key: http://www.rbt.ca/rbtpub.asc
19 Jan 2003 11:43:27 -0500
Rod Taylor <rbt@rbt.ca>
Re: Survey results from the PostgreSQL portal page
> On Sunday 19 January 2003 09:20, Justin Clift wrote:
>> Dave Page put up a new survey on the PostgreSQL portal page very
>> recently, " What would attract the most new PostgreSQL users?" and the
>> results in already are interesting (1,529 results as this is being
>> written):
>> ***********
>>
>> Answer            Responses Percentage
>>
>> More speed           505      33.028% 
>> Win32 Port           390 	 25.507%
>> Replication          386      25.245% 
>> Better docs          160      10.464% 
>> More features         32       2.093% 
>> Better marketing      29       1.897% 
>> Better migration      18       1.177% 
>> PITR			      9       0.589%
>>
>> Total number of responses: 1529
> 

The funny thing is that, to me, this least is perfectly reflective of the
FUD that other databases use against postgresql. It's too slow, it only
runs on *nix, it doesn't have replication, and the documentation isn't
very good.  You can't FUD postgresql on feature set, becuase we have a
pretty wide feature set (as good as any other open source rdbms afaik)
plus it's open source, so if we don't have a feature that say oracle has,
you can pay someone the $10,000+ the oracle license will cost to implement
it. I've also not seen much FUD on the other issues either. If you can
address the primary points that your competition is using as FUD, you
will gain new users. We'll see what happens in 7.4 if we do have
replication, native windows support, and PITR, because everyone will have
to come up with some new FUD to sling this way.

Robert Treat

Sun, 19 Jan 2003 13:19:03 -0500
Robert Treat <xzilla@users.sourceforge.net>
Re: Survey results from the PostgreSQL portal page
On Sun, Jan 19, 2003 at 01:19:03PM -0500, Robert Treat wrote:
> pretty wide feature set (as good as any other open source rdbms afaik)
> plus it's open source, so if we don't have a feature that say oracle has,
> you can pay someone the $10,000+ the oracle license will cost to implement
> it. I've also not seen much FUD on the other issues either. If you can

Unfortunately it doesn't always work this way. I knew one government
organization that decided to go for Oracle for 500K Euro instead of
adding the missing features (actually almost exclusively PITR). One of
the top arguments I heard was: "I don't believe that free software
community works. Once the developers get a social life or even kids,
they stop working on software." Of course I told him that I still do
work on free software despite having three sons on which he answered:
"Maybe, but I still don't believe it." 

Sad but true.

Michael
-- 
Michael Meskes
Email: Michael@Fam-Meskes.De
ICQ: 179140304
Go SF 49ers! Go Rhein Fire! Use Debian GNU/Linux! Use PostgreSQL!

Sun, 19 Jan 2003 20:29:27 +0100
Michael Meskes <meskes@postgresql.org>
Re: Survey results from the PostgreSQL portal page


Michael Meskes <meskes@postgresql.org> wrote:
> Unfortunately it doesn't always work this way. I knew one government
> organization that decided to go for Oracle for 500K Euro instead of
> adding the missing features (actually almost exclusively PITR). One of
> the top arguments I heard was: "I don't believe that free software
> community works. Once the developers get a social life or even kids,
> they stop working on software." Of course I told him that I still do
> work on free software despite having three sons on which he answered:
> "Maybe, but I still don't believe it." 
> 
> Sad but true.

I think it is about "sustainability of free software".

Linux kernel community gets many contributions and commitments from big
IT companies, like Intel, IBM, NEC, etc.  They throw many hackers into
opensource community. So I think the linux kernel is getting more
powerful and sustainable. Linux kernel can be trustful in the future?
Yes, I think so.  Even today, Oracle is running on Linux.

In opensource community, I think only the developer pool can be
guarantee for its sustainability. We need more developers and supporting
companies.

Can we get a belief in sustainability?

BTW, Japanese government is considering the opensouce software. One
official said, "We don't want to pay more license fee to the proprietary
software companies, like MS, Oracle or else. But we don't know how to
keep the relationship with opensource community. The government may tend
to be disliked by NPO(Non-profit organization) or else...".

But he also said, "NAIST(www.naist.go.jp) are going to replace *ALL*
their software with opensource in next 2 years."

I feel we are in the new movement now. We have a chance in our hands.
Don't be disappointed.

And my project is granted by IPA(www.ipa.go.jp) Japan. :-)

-- 
NAGAYASU Satoshi <snaga@snaga.org>

Mon, 20 Jan 2003 06:29:41 +0900
Satoshi Nagayasu <pgsql@snaga.org>
Re: Survey results from the PostgreSQL portal page
Tom Lane wrote:
> Justin Clift <justin@postgresql.org> writes:
> 
>>Dave Page put up a new survey on the PostgreSQL portal page very 
>>recently, " What would attract the most new PostgreSQL users?" and the 
>>results in already are interesting (1,529 results as this is being written):
>>[snip]
>>Now, we don't necessarily have a speed problem, as people who take the 
>>time to tune the database can attest to, so this is making me consider 
>>why such a large percentage of folk would vote for that.
> 
> 
> Interesting question.  Too bad the survey didn't ask *what* they find
> slow.

Hey, interesting point.

Perhaps for the next survey, we should ask which part of PostgreSQL 
people feel needs the greatest speed increase?  We just have to think of 
the best wording for it...  :)


>>Other interesting conclusions can be drawn from the results too, one of 
>>which is that only about 2% of people are asking for more features, and 
>>also that only about 2% are looking for better marketing.
> 
> 
> Of course, this is a survey of people who already know about Postgres,
> and are sufficiently interested in using it to have visited the website.
> So really, people who need to be marketed to weren't surveyed.  The low
> vote for that point is probably just survey skew.

Yep.  It's a reasonably ad-hoc system, but it does provide some 
interesting aggregate feedback.  It's nice that we receive a decent 
amount of votes over a short amount of time.

Out of curiosity, any thoughts as to what other questions or topics 
might be good to be asked about?

:-)

Regards and best wishes,

Justin Clift

> 			regards, tom lane


-- 
"My grandfather once told me that there are two kinds of people: those
who work and those who take the credit. He told me to try to be in the
first group; there was less competition there."
- Indira Gandhi


Mon, 20 Jan 2003 11:49:11 +1030
Justin Clift <justin@postgresql.org>
Re: Survey results from the PostgreSQL portal page
> I wonder why people ask for better documentation. I think the 
> documentation is really good. Ever read Oracle stuff? *ugh*.

Ever read MySQL docs - *hack*!!

Chris


Mon, 20 Jan 2003 09:57:23 +0800
"Christopher Kings-Lynne" <chriskl@familyhealth.com.au>
Re: Survey results from the PostgreSQL portal page
On Mon, 20 Jan 2003, Christopher Kings-Lynne wrote:

> > I wonder why people ask for better documentation. I think the 
> > documentation is really good. Ever read Oracle stuff? *ugh*.
> 
> Ever read MySQL docs - *hack*!!

The documentation definately needs work -- particularly client
library documentation and PL/PgSQL. I want to work on this when I get
time.

Gavin


Mon, 20 Jan 2003 13:32:14 +1100 (EST)
Gavin Sherry <swm@linuxworld.com.au>
Re: Survey results from the PostgreSQL portal page
Michael Meskes wrote:
> On Sun, Jan 19, 2003 at 01:19:03PM -0500, Robert Treat wrote:
> 
>>pretty wide feature set (as good as any other open source rdbms afaik)
>>plus it's open source, so if we don't have a feature that say oracle has,
>>you can pay someone the $10,000+ the oracle license will cost to implement
>>it. I've also not seen much FUD on the other issues either. If you can
> 
> 
> Unfortunately it doesn't always work this way. I knew one government
> organization that decided to go for Oracle for 500K Euro instead of
> adding the missing features (actually almost exclusively PITR). One of
> the top arguments I heard was: "I don't believe that free software
> community works. Once the developers get a social life or even kids,
> they stop working on software." Of course I told him that I still do
> work on free software despite having three sons on which he answered:
> "Maybe, but I still don't believe it." 
>
> Sad but true.

Interesting observation, and not entirely irrelevant.  It's the strength 
of any particular Open Source Community that seems to indicate whether 
or not there are going to be enough people getting involved to overcome 
the attrition rate of the people becoming less involved.

With PostgreSQL, a lot of work goes into building and feeding the 
community.  That includes making sure the right people are talking to 
each other, assisting people to find the information they need, and 
other simpler stuff like making sure the basic facilities work (cvs, 
ftp, websites, etc).

We are fortunate in that being based on a BSD license is assisting 
businesses to adopt PostgreSQL without needing to think too hard about 
licensing ramifications, and we are also fortunate that the quality of 
PostgreSQL is extremely good and has an increasingly excellent 
reputation that is attracting people from countries all over the world 
to get involved.

When people suggest that the "Free Software Community" doesn't work, it 
may be worthwhile pointing out that it works very well for the 
Communities that are strong, but he could be correct for those that 
haven't become self-sufficient yet.

:-)

Regards and best wishes,

Justin Clift

> Michael


-- 
"My grandfather once told me that there are two kinds of people: those
who work and those who take the credit. He told me to try to be in the
first group; there was less competition there."
- Indira Gandhi


Mon, 20 Jan 2003 13:03:21 +1030
Justin Clift <justin@postgresql.org>
Re: Survey results from the PostgreSQL portal page
Gavin Sherry wrote:
> On Mon, 20 Jan 2003, Christopher Kings-Lynne wrote:
> 
> 
>>>I wonder why people ask for better documentation. I think the 
>>>documentation is really good. Ever read Oracle stuff? *ugh*.
>>
>>Ever read MySQL docs - *hack*!!
> 
> 
> The documentation definately needs work -- particularly client
> library documentation and PL/PgSQL. I want to work on this when I get
> time.

Case in point : in 7.3, the ODBC driver documentation (which was terse and 
somewhat outdated, to begin with ...) has disappeared from the main tree. 
You have to go to GBorg to find (some) relevant information (and no 
examples, BTW). But to find an information I really needed, I had to use 
... the driver source, fer Crissakes !! I felt back in '74, when I tried to 
learn Fortran.

[ BTW : note to Hiroshi Inoue : Thank you ! I partially solved by problem, 
and think a real solution is bound to to undoing some 7.2 to 7.3 
modifications ...]

The same could be said of the JDBC driver, btw, while it's doc is still in 
the main doc tree.

This one is one of my pet peeves at the moment ...

					Emmanuel Charpentier


Mon, 20 Jan 2003 20:18:04 +0100
Emmanuel Charpentier <charpent@bacbuc.dyndns.org>
Re: Survey results from the PostgreSQL portal page
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Thu, 23 Jan 2003 20:27:32 +0900 (JST)
Curt Sampson <cjs@cynic.net>
Re: Survey results from the PostgreSQL portal page
Michael Meskes wrote:
> On Sun, Jan 19, 2003 at 01:19:03PM -0500, Robert Treat wrote:
> > pretty wide feature set (as good as any other open source rdbms afaik)
> > plus it's open source, so if we don't have a feature that say oracle has,
> > you can pay someone the $10,000+ the oracle license will cost to implement
> > it. I've also not seen much FUD on the other issues either. If you can
> 
> Unfortunately it doesn't always work this way. I knew one government
> organization that decided to go for Oracle for 500K Euro instead of
> adding the missing features (actually almost exclusively PITR). One of
> the top arguments I heard was: "I don't believe that free software
> community works. Once the developers get a social life or even kids,
> they stop working on software." Of course I told him that I still do
> work on free software despite having three sons on which he answered:
> "Maybe, but I still don't believe it." 
> 
> Sad but true.

One issue he is probably right about is that more burden is placed on
the user for testing/support in open source than in closed source.  Of
course, open source is usually free, so you can afford to pay for those
extras, but they do exist have have to be managed. I bet some companies
just want to pay the bill and the yearly support and don't want to deal
with the extra burden, even if it saves them money.

-- 
  Bruce Momjian                        |  http://candle.pha.pa.us
  pgman@candle.pha.pa.us               |  (610) 359-1001
  +  If your life is a hard drive,     |  13 Roberts Road
  +  Christ can be your backup.        |  Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073

Sat, 25 Jan 2003 20:53:54 -0500 (EST)
Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>
Re: Survey results from the PostgreSQL portal page