I'm pleased to see some renewed interest in pg_access.  It seems obvious to me that MS Access is not currently...and probably never will be able to handle data in a robust and reliable fashion.  MS Access' apparent success is due to the user interface quality and "ease of use" for "non-programmers".  The "Relationships View" window, for example, is one of the best and most useful features ever invented for any database toolset.

In reality PostGreSQL is in a "strong position" to fill the "reliability void" left by MS Access.  However, the general public doesn't know much about the short comings of Access, due to MS advertising and sales efforts.  It seems clear to me that the best way to "promote" the use of PostGreSQL is to offer more "ease of use" GUI interfaces for changing table structures, indexes, relationships, and upgrading older versions of files.  Although it would be nice to have a native Windows version of PostGreSQL, as well as a Linux version, I expect Linux to replace Windows on a large number of PCs in the near future.  I think that "having a Windows version" will not be a significant issue at that point.  However, GUI based "ease of use" features WILL be an extremely important issue and will increase in importance for the rest of the forseeable future.  Using a "browser" to implement the GUI toolset is a good start, but it probably won't support the same degree of user friendliness that is seen in the "Relationships View" window of MS Access, where a relationship can be instantly "drawn" with a mouse, and fields added to the Table with a simple "right click" on the Table header.

If we do a good job of providing GUI based tools, similar to MS Access, as well as conversion tools from Access to PostGreSQL for existing data, then PostGreSQL and Linux should quickly become the "defacto standard" toolset for all website servers.  It seems to me like PostGreSQL is already on this pathway, "like it or not", and that focussing on the GUI toolset is essential to maintaining a good relationship with those who are new to the Linux world.  Whether you realize it or not, there is a humongous tidal wave of MS Access users currently gathering enough database theory expertise to "realize" the MS "snow job" they've been given about its reliability.  They will be forced into finding another solution and chances are VERY good they won't opt for MS SQL Server or Oracle.  If we are ready to give a solution to them...great....sorry MS, but they seem to "like us better".  If we are not ready, then our future won't have anything to do with MS, only our own lack of vision.

At our current level of GUI tools, we can't expect any positive response even from fairly talented self taught computer programmers who have been interested in Linux since 1998 or later.  Soon, there will be many Windows IT Specialists who will be seriously investigating the Linux OS and the "best database tools" available for it.  Add to this list "end users" who are fed up with daily Windows crashes and are experimenting with hosting their own DSL based website servers....and well...there's your tidal wave!  Ready or not....the wave is directly behind us....time to "paddle" for all we're worth!

Sincerely,

Arthur Baldwin







I'm pleased to see some renewed interest in 
pg_access.  It seems obvious to me that MS Access is not currently...and 
probably never will be able to handle data in a robust and reliable 
fashion.  MS Access' apparent success is due to the user interface quality 
and "ease of use" for "non-programmers".  The "Relationships View" window, 
for example, is one of the best and most useful features ever invented for any 
database toolset.
 
In reality PostGreSQL is in a "strong position" to 
fill the "reliability void" left by MS Access.  However, the general 
public doesn't know much about the short comings of Access, due to MS 
advertising and sales efforts.  It seems clear to me that the best way to 
"promote" the use of PostGreSQL is to offer more "ease of use" GUI interfaces 
for changing table structures, indexes, relationships, and upgrading older 
versions of files.  Although it would be nice to have a native Windows 
version of PostGreSQL, as well as a Linux version, I expect Linux to replace 
Windows on a large number of PCs in the near future.  I think that "having 
a Windows version" will not be a significant issue at that point.  However, 
GUI based "ease of use" features WILL be an extremely important issue and will 
increase in importance for the rest of the forseeable future.  Using a 
"browser" to implement the GUI toolset is a good start, but it probably won't 
support the same degree of user friendliness that is seen in the "Relationships 
View" window of MS Access, where a relationship can be instantly "drawn" with a 
mouse, and fields added to the Table with a simple "right click" on the Table 
header.
 
If we do a good job of providing GUI based 
tools, similar to MS Access, as well as conversion tools from Access to 
PostGreSQL for existing data, then PostGreSQL and Linux should quickly become 
the "defacto standard" toolset for all website servers.  It seems to me 
like PostGreSQL is already on this pathway, "like it or not", and that focussing 
on the GUI toolset is essential to maintaining a good relationship with those 
who are new to the Linux world.  Whether you realize it or not, there is a 
humongous tidal wave of MS Access users currently gathering enough database 
theory expertise to "realize" the MS "snow job" they've been given about its 
reliability.  They will be forced into finding another solution and chances 
are VERY good they won't opt for MS SQL Server or Oracle.  If we are 
ready to give a solution to them...great....sorry MS, but they seem to 
"like us better".  If we are not ready, then our future won't have 
anything to do with MS, only our own lack of vision.
 
At our current level of GUI tools, we can't expect 
any positive response even from fairly talented self taught computer programmers 
who have been interested in Linux since 1998 or later.  Soon, there will be 
many Windows IT Specialists who will be seriously investigating the Linux OS and 
the "best database tools" available for it.  Add to this list "end users" 
who are fed up with daily Windows crashes and are experimenting with hosting 
their own DSL based website servers....and well...there's your tidal wave!  
Ready or not....the wave is directly behind us....time to "paddle" for all we're 
worth!
 
Sincerely,
 
Arthur Baldwin
Tue, 9 Jul 2002 14:04:56 -0700
"Arthur@LinkLine.com" <arthur@linkline.com>
Re: pg_access
I'm afraid that I don't hold as much faith as you that Linux will become
the "defacto standard" toolset for all website servers. MS, despite its
major shortcomings, is fairly slow and steady when it comes to
improvements to its OS. That said, Access is crap because no one uses it
for what it was built to be used for. And I would imagine that MS would
rather spend their time/money on SQL Server development. I agree with
you that pgsql needs a more powerful, GUI interface. The QBE interface
in Access is nice. However, I don't agree that it is unimportant to have
a Windows version. Point being, that Linux users are used to - and sadly
often expect - poor interfaces with the programs they use. Windows users
are far less forgiving. If, what you are talking about, is truly wide
spread use for PC's and small-time web-servers then a Windows interface
is damn near necessary.
 
Eric
 
-----Original Message-----
From: pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org
[mailto:pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org] On Behalf Of
Arthur@LinkLine.com
Sent: Tuesday, July 09, 2002 4:05 PM
To: PostGreSQL Hackers
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] pg_access
 
I'm pleased to see some renewed interest in pg_access.  It seems obvious
to me that MS Access is not currently...and probably never will be able
to handle data in a robust and reliable fashion.  MS Access' apparent
success is due to the user interface quality and "ease of use" for
"non-programmers".  The "Relationships View" window, for example, is one
of the best and most useful features ever invented for any database
toolset.
 
In reality PostGreSQL is in a "strong position" to fill the "reliability
void" left by MS Access.  However, the general public doesn't know much
about the short comings of Access, due to MS advertising and sales
efforts.  It seems clear to me that the best way to "promote" the use of
PostGreSQL is to offer more "ease of use" GUI interfaces for changing
table structures, indexes, relationships, and upgrading older versions
of files.  Although it would be nice to have a native Windows version of
PostGreSQL, as well as a Linux version, I expect Linux to replace
Windows on a large number of PCs in the near future.  I think that
"having a Windows version" will not be a significant issue at that
point.  However, GUI based "ease of use" features WILL be an extremely
important issue and will increase in importance for the rest of the
forseeable future.  Using a "browser" to implement the GUI toolset is a
good start, but it probably won't support the same degree of user
friendliness that is seen in the "Relationships View" window of MS
Access, where a relationship can be instantly "drawn" with a mouse, and
fields added to the Table with a simple "right click" on the Table
header.
 
If we do a good job of providing GUI based tools, similar to MS Access,
as well as conversion tools from Access to PostGreSQL for existing data,
then PostGreSQL and Linux should quickly become the "defacto standard"
toolset for all website servers.  It seems to me like PostGreSQL is
already on this pathway, "like it or not", and that focussing on the GUI
toolset is essential to maintaining a good relationship with those who
are new to the Linux world.  Whether you realize it or not, there is a
humongous tidal wave of MS Access users currently gathering enough
database theory expertise to "realize" the MS "snow job" they've been
given about its reliability.  They will be forced into finding another
solution and chances are VERY good they won't opt for MS SQL Server or
Oracle.  If we are ready to give a solution to them...great....sorry MS,
but they seem to "like us better".  If we are not ready, then our future
won't have anything to do with MS, only our own lack of vision.
 
At our current level of GUI tools, we can't expect any positive response
even from fairly talented self taught computer programmers who have been
interested in Linux since 1998 or later.  Soon, there will be many
Windows IT Specialists who will be seriously investigating the Linux OS
and the "best database tools" available for it.  Add to this list "end
users" who are fed up with daily Windows crashes and are experimenting
with hosting their own DSL based website servers....and well...there's
your tidal wave!  Ready or not....the wave is directly behind us....time
to "paddle" for all we're worth!
 
Sincerely,
 
Arthur Baldwin
















I’m afraid that I don’t hold
as much faith as you that Linux will become the “defacto standard”
toolset for all website servers. MS, despite its major shortcomings, is fairly
slow and steady when it comes to improvements to its OS. That said, Access is crap because no one uses it for what it was
built to be used for. And I would imagine that MS would rather spend their time/money
on SQL Server development. I agree with you that pgsql
needs a more powerful, GUI interface. The QBE interface in Access is nice. However,
I don’t agree that it is unimportant to have a Windows version. Point
being, that Linux users are used to – and sadly often expect – poor
interfaces with the programs they use. Windows users are far less forgiving. If,
what you are talking about, is truly wide spread use for PC’s and small-time
web-servers then a Windows interface is damn near necessary.
 
Eric
 
-----Original Message-----
From: pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org
[mailto:pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org] On
Behalf Of Arthur@LinkLine.com
Sent: Tuesday, July 09, 2002 4:05 PM
To: PostGreSQL Hackers
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] pg_access
 

I'm pleased to see some renewed
interest in pg_access.  It seems obvious to me that MS Access is not
currently...and probably never will be able to handle data in a robust and
reliable fashion.  MS Access' apparent success is due to the user interface
quality and "ease of use" for "non-programmers".  The
"Relationships View" window, for example, is one of the best and most
useful features ever invented for any database toolset.


 


In reality PostGreSQL is in a
"strong position" to fill the "reliability void" left
by MS Access.  However, the general public doesn't know much about
the short comings of Access, due to MS advertising and sales
efforts.  It seems clear to me that the best way to "promote"
the use of PostGreSQL is to offer more "ease of use" GUI interfaces
for changing table structures, indexes, relationships, and upgrading older
versions of files.  Although it would be nice to have a native Windows
version of PostGreSQL, as well as a Linux version, I expect Linux to replace
Windows on a large number of PCs in the near future.  I think that
"having a Windows version" will not be a significant issue at that
point.  However, GUI based "ease of use" features WILL be an
extremely important issue and will increase in importance for the rest of the
forseeable future.  Using a "browser" to implement the GUI
toolset is a good start, but it probably won't support the same degree of user
friendliness that is seen in the "Relationships View" window of MS
Access, where a relationship can be instantly "drawn" with a mouse,
and fields added to the Table with a simple "right click" on the
Table header.


 


If we do a good job of
providing GUI based tools, similar to MS Access, as well as conversion
tools from Access to PostGreSQL for existing data, then PostGreSQL and Linux
should quickly become the "defacto standard" toolset for all website
servers.  It seems to me like PostGreSQL is already on this pathway,
"like it or not", and that focussing on the GUI toolset is essential
to maintaining a good relationship with those who are new to the Linux
world.  Whether you realize it or not, there is a humongous tidal wave of
MS Access users currently gathering enough database theory expertise to
"realize" the MS "snow job" they've been given about its
reliability.  They will be forced into finding another solution and
chances are VERY good they won't opt for MS SQL Server or Oracle.  If
we are ready to give a solution to them...great....sorry MS, but they
seem to "like us better".  If we are not ready, then our
future won't have anything to do with MS, only our own lack of vision.


 


At our current level of GUI tools,
we can't expect any positive response even from fairly talented self taught
computer programmers who have been interested in Linux since 1998 or
later.  Soon, there will be many Windows IT Specialists who will be
seriously investigating the Linux OS and the "best database tools"
available for it.  Add to this list "end users" who are fed up
with daily Windows crashes and are experimenting with hosting their own DSL
based website servers....and well...there's your tidal wave!  Ready or
not....the wave is directly behind us....time to "paddle" for all
we're worth!


 


Sincerely,


 


Arthur Baldwin
Tue, 9 Jul 2002 17:14:18 -0500
"Eric Redmond" <redmonde@purdue.edu>
Re: pg_access
Ahh and let us not forget that postgresql runs beautifully (so far as I can
tell) under Mac OS X, an operating system whose user base demands
easy-to-use GUI software.

Pgaccess is a different story however-- I haven't gotten it to work yet
because tcl/tk is not quite working...  Haven't had any time to look at it
yet.


Best regards,
Michael Ditto

On 7/9/02 4:14 PM, "Eric Redmond" <redmonde@purdue.edu> wrote:

> I¹m afraid that I don¹t hold as much faith as you that Linux will become the
> ³defacto standard² toolset for all website servers. MS, despite its major
> shortcomings, is fairly slow and steady when it comes to improvements to its
> OS. That said, Access is crap because no one uses it for what it was built to
> be used for. And I would imagine that MS would rather spend their time/money
> on SQL Server development. I agree with you that pgsql needs a more powerful,
> GUI interface. The QBE interface in Access is nice. However, I don¹t agree
> that it is unimportant to have a Windows version. Point being, that Linux
> users are used to ­ and sadly often expect ­ poor interfaces with the programs
> they use. Windows users are far less forgiving. If, what you are talking
> about, is truly wide spread use for PC¹s and small-time web-servers then a
> Windows interface is damn near necessary.
> 
> 
> 
> Eric
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org
> [mailto:pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org] On Behalf Of Arthur@LinkLine.com
> Sent: Tuesday, July 09, 2002 4:05 PM
> To: PostGreSQL Hackers
> Subject: Re: [HACKERS] pg_access
> 
> 
> 
> I'm pleased to see some renewed interest in pg_access.  It seems obvious to me
> that MS Access is not currently...and probably never will be able to handle
> data in a robust and reliable fashion.  MS Access' apparent success is due to
> the user interface quality and "ease of use" for "non-programmers".  The
> "Relationships View" window, for example, is one of the best and most useful
> features ever invented for any database toolset.
> 
> 
> 
> In reality PostGreSQL is in a "strong position" to fill the "reliability void"
> left by MS Access.  However, the general public doesn't know much about the
> short comings of Access, due to MS advertising and sales efforts.  It seems
> clear to me that the best way to "promote" the use of PostGreSQL is to offer
> more "ease of use" GUI interfaces for changing table structures, indexes,
> relationships, and upgrading older versions of files.  Although it would be
> nice to have a native Windows version of PostGreSQL, as well as a Linux
> version, I expect Linux to replace Windows on a large number of PCs in the
> near future.  I think that "having a Windows version" will not be a
> significant issue at that point.  However, GUI based "ease of use" features
> WILL be an extremely important issue and will increase in importance for the
> rest of the forseeable future.  Using a "browser" to implement the GUI toolset
> is a good start, but it probably won't support the same degree of user
> friendliness that is seen in the "Relationships View" window of MS Access,
> where a relationship can be instantly "drawn" with a mouse, and fields added
> to the Table with a simple "right click" on the Table header.
> 
> 
> 
> If we do a good job of providing GUI based tools, similar to MS Access, as
> well as conversion tools from Access to PostGreSQL for existing data, then
> PostGreSQL and Linux should quickly become the "defacto standard" toolset for
> all website servers.  It seems to me like PostGreSQL is already on this
> pathway, "like it or not", and that focussing on the GUI toolset is essential
> to maintaining a good relationship with those who are new to the Linux world.
> Whether you realize it or not, there is a humongous tidal wave of MS Access
> users currently gathering enough database theory expertise to "realize" the MS
> "snow job" they've been given about its reliability.  They will be forced into
> finding another solution and chances are VERY good they won't opt for MS SQL
> Server or Oracle.  If we are ready to give a solution to them...great....sorry
> MS, but they seem to "like us better".  If we are not ready, then our future
> won't have anything to do with MS, only our own lack of vision.
> 
> 
> 
> At our current level of GUI tools, we can't expect any positive response even
> from fairly talented self taught computer programmers who have been interested
> in Linux since 1998 or later.  Soon, there will be many Windows IT Specialists
> who will be seriously investigating the Linux OS and the "best database tools"
> available for it.  Add to this list "end users" who are fed up with daily
> Windows crashes and are experimenting with hosting their own DSL based website
> servers....and well...there's your tidal wave!  Ready or not....the wave is
> directly behind us....time to "paddle" for all we're worth!
> 
> 
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> 
> 
> Arthur Baldwin
> 



Tue, 09 Jul 2002 17:03:55 -0600
"Michael J. Ditto" <janus@frii.com>
Re: pg_access