From what I read in the recent exchanges in the PostgreSQL vs ORACLE thread it would seem a good idea for the backend to keep track of the number of update performed on a database and after a certain threshold start a vacuum in a separate process by itself. 
Any comments?








From what I read in the recent exchanges in the 
PostgreSQL vs ORACLE thread it would seem a good idea for the backend to keep 
track of the number of update performed on a database and after a certain 
threshold start a vacuum in a separate process by itself. 
Any comments?
Tue, 5 Mar 2002 12:14:42 +1100
"Nicolas Bazin" <nbazin@ingenico.com.au>
Postgresql backend to perform vacuum automatically
Nicolas Bazin wrote:
> >From what I read in the recent exchanges in the PostgreSQL vs ORACLE thread it would seem a good idea for the backend to keep track of the number of update performed on a database and after a certain threshold start a vacuum in a separate process by itself.
> Any comments?

Yes, makes sense to me, especially now that we have a nolocking vacuum. 
Tom, do you have any ideas on this?

--
  Bruce Momjian                        |  http://candle.pha.pa.us
  pgman@candle.pha.pa.us               |  (610) 853-3000
  +  If your life is a hard drive,     |  830 Blythe Avenue
  +  Christ can be your backup.        |  Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026

Mon, 4 Mar 2002 20:53:52 -0500 (EST)
Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>
Re: Postgresql backend to perform vacuum automatically
Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us> writes:
> Nicolas Bazin wrote:
> From what I read in the recent exchanges in the PostgreSQL vs ORACLE thread it would seem a good idea for the backend to keep track of the number of update performed on a database and after a certain threshold start a vacuum in a separate process by itself.
>> Any comments?

> Yes, makes sense to me, especially now that we have a nolocking vacuum. 
> Tom, do you have any ideas on this?

There's a TODO item about this already.

* Provide automatic scheduling of background vacuum (Tom)

			regards, tom lane

Tue, 05 Mar 2002 00:33:34 -0500
Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
Re: Postgresql backend to perform vacuum automatically 
> > Yes, makes sense to me, especially now that we have a nolocking vacuum.
> > Tom, do you have any ideas on this?
>
> There's a TODO item about this already.
>
> * Provide automatic scheduling of background vacuum (Tom)

I think an good system would have some parameters something like this in
postgresql.conf:

vacuum_update_threshold
= num of operations that cause frags on a table before a vacuum is run, 0 =
no requirement, if followed by a percent (%) sign, indicates percentage of
rows changed, rather than an absolute number

vacuum_idle_threshold
= system load below which the system must be before a vacuum can be
performed.  0 = no requirement

vacuum_time_threshold
= seconds since last vacuum before which another vacuum cannot occur. 0 = no
requirement.

If all 3 are 0, then no auto-vacuuming is performed at all.  There's
probably trouble if only the idle threshold is set to zero.

And the same for the 'analyze' command?

If they want it on a per-table basis, then they can just do it themselves
with a cronjob!

Chris



Tue, 5 Mar 2002 14:03:52 +0800
"Christopher Kings-Lynne" <chriskl@familyhealth.com.au>
Re: Postgresql backend to perform vacuum automatically 
> vacuum_idle_threshold
> = system load below which the system must be before a vacuum can be
> performed.  0 = no requirement
> 
> vacuum_time_threshold
> = seconds since last vacuum before which another vacuum cannot occur. 0 = no
> requirement.
> 
> If all 3 are 0, then no auto-vacuuming is performed at all.  There's
> probably trouble if only the idle threshold is set to zero.
> 
> And the same for the 'analyze' command?
> 
> If they want it on a per-table basis, then they can just do it themselves
> with a cronjob!

Yes, and Jan's statistics stuff has stats on table activity.

-- 
  Bruce Momjian                        |  http://candle.pha.pa.us
  pgman@candle.pha.pa.us               |  (610) 853-3000
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Tue, 5 Mar 2002 01:05:06 -0500 (EST)
Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>
Re: Postgresql backend to perform vacuum automatically
Tom Lane wrote:
> 
> Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us> writes:
> > Nicolas Bazin wrote:
> > From what I read in the recent exchanges in the PostgreSQL vs ORACLE thread it would seem a good idea for the backend to keep track of the number of update performed on a database and after a certain threshold start a vacuum in a separate process by itself.
> >> Any comments?
> 
> > Yes, makes sense to me, especially now that we have a nolocking vacuum.
> > Tom, do you have any ideas on this?
> 
> There's a TODO item about this already.
> 
> * Provide automatic scheduling of background vacuum (Tom)

I have been thinking about this. I like the idea, but it may be problematic.

I suggested running a vacuum process on a constant low priority in the
background, and it was pointed out that this may cause some deadlock issues.

For vacuum to run in the background, it needs to be more regulated or targeted.

It needs to be able to know which tables need it. Many tables are static and
never get updated, vacuuming them would be pointless. It needs to be sensitive
to database load, and be tunable to vacuum only when safe or necessary to
reduce load.

Are there tables that track information that would be useful for guiding
vacuum? Could I write a program which queries some statistical tables and and
knows which tables need to be vacuumed?

If the info is around, I could whip up something pretty easily, I think.

Tue, 05 Mar 2002 09:15:02 -0500
mlw <markw@mohawksoft.com>
Re: Postgresql backend to perform vacuum automatically
> Are there tables that track information that would be useful for guiding
> vacuum? Could I write a program which queries some statistical tables and and
> knows which tables need to be vacuumed?
> 
> If the info is around, I could whip up something pretty easily, I think.

Sure, Jan's new statistics tables in 7.2 had just that info.
	
	test=> \d pg_stat_user_tables
	     View "pg_stat_user_tables"
	    Column     |  Type   | Modifiers 
	---------------+---------+-----------
	 relid         | oid     | 
	 relname       | name    | 
	 seq_scan      | bigint  | 
	 seq_tup_read  | bigint  | 
	 idx_scan      | numeric | 
	 idx_tup_fetch | numeric | 
	 n_tup_ins     | bigint  | 
	 n_tup_upd     | bigint  | 
	 n_tup_del     | bigint  | 

-- 
  Bruce Momjian                        |  http://candle.pha.pa.us
  pgman@candle.pha.pa.us               |  (610) 853-3000
  +  If your life is a hard drive,     |  830 Blythe Avenue
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Tue, 5 Mar 2002 13:06:30 -0500 (EST)
Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>
Re: Postgresql backend to perform vacuum automatically
Bruce Momjian wrote:
> 
> > Are there tables that track information that would be useful for guiding
> > vacuum? Could I write a program which queries some statistical tables and and
> > knows which tables need to be vacuumed?
> >
> > If the info is around, I could whip up something pretty easily, I think.
> 
> Sure, Jan's new statistics tables in 7.2 had just that info.
> 
>         test=> \d pg_stat_user_tables
>              View "pg_stat_user_tables"
>             Column     |  Type   | Modifiers
>         ---------------+---------+-----------
>          relid         | oid     |
>          relname       | name    |
>          seq_scan      | bigint  |
>          seq_tup_read  | bigint  |
>          idx_scan      | numeric |
>          idx_tup_fetch | numeric |
>          n_tup_ins     | bigint  |
>          n_tup_upd     | bigint  |
>          n_tup_del     | bigint  |

I have a system running 7.2b2, does it update these fields? Is it an option?
All I am getting is zeros.

   relid   |       relname        | seq_scan | seq_tup_read | idx_scan |
idx_tup_fetch | n_tup_ins | n_tup_upd | n_tup_del
-----------+----------------------+----------+--------------+----------+---------------+-----------+-----------+-----------
     16559 | snf_cache            |        0 |            0 |        0
|             0 |         0 |         0 |         0
   8689760 | fav_stat             |        0 |            0 |         
|               |         0 |         0 |         0
  19174244 | mbr_art_aff          |        0 |            0 |        0
|             0 |         0 |         0 |         0
  20788376 | artist_affinity      |        0 |            0 |        0
|             0 |         0 |         0 |         0
  83345144 | saffweak             |        0 |            0 |         
|               |         0 |         0 |         0
  94811871 | pga_queries          |        0 |            0 |         
|               |         0 |         0 |         0
  94812980 | pga_forms            |        0 |            0 |         
|               |         0 |         0 |         0
  94813425 | pga_scripts          |        0 |            0 |         
|               |         0 |         0 |         0
  94813869 | pga_reports          |        0 |            0 |         
|               |         0 |         0 |         0
  94814245 | pga_schema           |        0 |            0 |         
|               |         0 |         0 |         0
 116675008 | int_song_affinity    |        0 |            0 |         
|               |         0 |         0 |         0
 166147508 | favorites            |        0 |            0 |        0
|             0 |         0 |         0 |         0
 173869647 | song_affinity_orig_t |        0 |            0 |         
|               |         0 |         0 |         0
 176339567 | song_affinity        |        0 |            0 |        0
|             0 |         0 |         0 |         0
 178658941 | song_affinity_array  |        0 |            0 |        0
|             0 |         0 |         0 |         0
 186403716 | mbr_art_aff_t        |        0 |            0 |         
|               |         0 |         0 |         0

Tue, 05 Mar 2002 13:16:25 -0500
mlw <markw@mohawksoft.com>
Re: Postgresql backend to perform vacuum automatically

Yes, I am seeing only zeros too.  Jan?

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

mlw wrote:
> Bruce Momjian wrote:
> > 
> > > Are there tables that track information that would be useful for guiding
> > > vacuum? Could I write a program which queries some statistical tables and and
> > > knows which tables need to be vacuumed?
> > >
> > > If the info is around, I could whip up something pretty easily, I think.
> > 
> > Sure, Jan's new statistics tables in 7.2 had just that info.
> > 
> >         test=> \d pg_stat_user_tables
> >              View "pg_stat_user_tables"
> >             Column     |  Type   | Modifiers
> >         ---------------+---------+-----------
> >          relid         | oid     |
> >          relname       | name    |
> >          seq_scan      | bigint  |
> >          seq_tup_read  | bigint  |
> >          idx_scan      | numeric |
> >          idx_tup_fetch | numeric |
> >          n_tup_ins     | bigint  |
> >          n_tup_upd     | bigint  |
> >          n_tup_del     | bigint  |
> 
> I have a system running 7.2b2, does it update these fields? Is it an option?
> All I am getting is zeros.
> 
>    relid   |       relname        | seq_scan | seq_tup_read | idx_scan |
> idx_tup_fetch | n_tup_ins | n_tup_upd | n_tup_del
> -----------+----------------------+----------+--------------+----------+---------------+-----------+-----------+-----------
>      16559 | snf_cache            |        0 |            0 |        0
> |             0 |         0 |         0 |         0
>    8689760 | fav_stat             |        0 |            0 |         
> |               |         0 |         0 |         0
>   19174244 | mbr_art_aff          |        0 |            0 |        0
> |             0 |         0 |         0 |         0
>   20788376 | artist_affinity      |        0 |            0 |        0
> |             0 |         0 |         0 |         0
>   83345144 | saffweak             |        0 |            0 |         
> |               |         0 |         0 |         0
>   94811871 | pga_queries          |        0 |            0 |         
> |               |         0 |         0 |         0
>   94812980 | pga_forms            |        0 |            0 |         
> |               |         0 |         0 |         0
>   94813425 | pga_scripts          |        0 |            0 |         
> |               |         0 |         0 |         0
>   94813869 | pga_reports          |        0 |            0 |         
> |               |         0 |         0 |         0
>   94814245 | pga_schema           |        0 |            0 |         
> |               |         0 |         0 |         0
>  116675008 | int_song_affinity    |        0 |            0 |         
> |               |         0 |         0 |         0
>  166147508 | favorites            |        0 |            0 |        0
> |             0 |         0 |         0 |         0
>  173869647 | song_affinity_orig_t |        0 |            0 |         
> |               |         0 |         0 |         0
>  176339567 | song_affinity        |        0 |            0 |        0
> |             0 |         0 |         0 |         0
>  178658941 | song_affinity_array  |        0 |            0 |        0
> |             0 |         0 |         0 |         0
>  186403716 | mbr_art_aff_t        |        0 |            0 |         
> |               |         0 |         0 |         0
> 
> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
> TIP 4: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
> 

-- 
  Bruce Momjian                        |  http://candle.pha.pa.us
  pgman@candle.pha.pa.us               |  (610) 853-3000
  +  If your life is a hard drive,     |  830 Blythe Avenue
  +  Christ can be your backup.        |  Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026

Tue, 5 Mar 2002 13:23:53 -0500 (EST)
Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>
Re: Postgresql backend to perform vacuum automatically
Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us> writes:
> Yes, I am seeing only zeros too.  Jan?

Did you turn on statistics gathering?  See the Admin Guide's discussion
of database monitoring.

			regards, tom lane

Tue, 05 Mar 2002 13:36:14 -0500
Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
Re: Postgresql backend to perform vacuum automatically 
Tom Lane wrote:
> Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us> writes:
> > Yes, I am seeing only zeros too.  Jan?
> 
> Did you turn on statistics gathering?  See the Admin Guide's discussion
> of database monitoring.

Oops, now I remember.  Those are off by default and only the query
string is on by default.  Thanks.

-- 
  Bruce Momjian                        |  http://candle.pha.pa.us
  pgman@candle.pha.pa.us               |  (610) 853-3000
  +  If your life is a hard drive,     |  830 Blythe Avenue
  +  Christ can be your backup.        |  Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026

Tue, 5 Mar 2002 13:37:24 -0500 (EST)
Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>
Re: Postgresql backend to perform vacuum automatically
Bruce Momjian wrote:
> 
> Tom Lane wrote:
> > Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us> writes:
> > > Yes, I am seeing only zeros too.  Jan?
> >
> > Did you turn on statistics gathering?  See the Admin Guide's discussion
> > of database monitoring.
> 
> Oops, now I remember.  Those are off by default and only the query
> string is on by default.  Thanks.

This raises the question, by turning these on, does that affect database
performance?

If so, it may not be the answer for a selective vacuum.

If they do not affect performance, then why have them off?

Tue, 05 Mar 2002 14:21:22 -0500
mlw <markw@mohawksoft.com>
Re: Postgresql backend to perform vacuum automatically
mlw wrote:
> Bruce Momjian wrote:
> > 
> > Tom Lane wrote:
> > > Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us> writes:
> > > > Yes, I am seeing only zeros too.  Jan?
> > >
> > > Did you turn on statistics gathering?  See the Admin Guide's discussion
> > > of database monitoring.
> > 
> > Oops, now I remember.  Those are off by default and only the query
> > string is on by default.  Thanks.
> 
> This raises the question, by turning these on, does that affect database
> performance?
> 
> If so, it may not be the answer for a selective vacuum.
> 
> If they do not affect performance, then why have them off?

I think Jan said 2-3%.  If we can get autovacuum from it, it would be a
win to keep it on all the time, perhaps.

-- 
  Bruce Momjian                        |  http://candle.pha.pa.us
  pgman@candle.pha.pa.us               |  (610) 853-3000
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Tue, 5 Mar 2002 14:28:14 -0500 (EST)
Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>
Re: Postgresql backend to perform vacuum automatically
Bruce Momjian wrote:
> 
> mlw wrote:
> > Bruce Momjian wrote:
> > >
> > > Tom Lane wrote:
> > > > Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us> writes:
> > > > > Yes, I am seeing only zeros too.  Jan?
> > > >
> > > > Did you turn on statistics gathering?  See the Admin Guide's discussion
> > > > of database monitoring.
> > >
> > > Oops, now I remember.  Those are off by default and only the query
> > > string is on by default.  Thanks.
> >
> > This raises the question, by turning these on, does that affect database
> > performance?
> >
> > If so, it may not be the answer for a selective vacuum.
> >
> > If they do not affect performance, then why have them off?
> 
> I think Jan said 2-3%.  If we can get autovacuum from it, it would be a
> win to keep it on all the time, perhaps.

Assuming that the statistics get updated:

How often should the sats table be queried?
What sort of configurability would be needed?

Tue, 05 Mar 2002 15:49:30 -0500
mlw <markw@mohawksoft.com>
Re: Postgresql backend to perform vacuum automatically
> > > If they do not affect performance, then why have them off?
> > 
> > I think Jan said 2-3%.  If we can get autovacuum from it, it would be a
> > win to keep it on all the time, perhaps.
> 
> Assuming that the statistics get updated:
> 
> How often should the sats table be queried?
> What sort of configurability would be needed?

You could wake up every few minutes and see how the values have changed.
I don't remember if there is a way to clear that stats so you can see
just the changes in the past five minutes.  Vacuum the table that had
activity.

-- 
  Bruce Momjian                        |  http://candle.pha.pa.us
  pgman@candle.pha.pa.us               |  (610) 853-3000
  +  If your life is a hard drive,     |  830 Blythe Avenue
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Tue, 5 Mar 2002 15:59:08 -0500 (EST)
Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>
Re: Postgresql backend to perform vacuum automatically
On Tue, 2002-03-05 at 15:59, Bruce Momjian wrote:
> > > > If they do not affect performance, then why have them off?
> > > 
> > > I think Jan said 2-3%.  If we can get autovacuum from it, it would be a
> > > win to keep it on all the time, perhaps.
> > 
> > Assuming that the statistics get updated:
> > 
> > How often should the sats table be queried?
> > What sort of configurability would be needed?
> 
> You could wake up every few minutes and see how the values have changed.
> I don't remember if there is a way to clear that stats so you can see
> just the changes in the past five minutes.  Vacuum the table that had
> activity.

Ick -- polling. The statistics process should be able to wake somebody
up / notify the postmaster when the statistics change such that a vacuum
is required.

Neil

-- 
Neil Padgett
Red Hat Canada Ltd.                       E-Mail:  npadgett@redhat.com
2323 Yonge Street, Suite #300, 
Toronto, ON  M4P 2C9


05 Mar 2002 16:42:25 -0500
Neil Padgett <npadgett@redhat.com>
Re: Postgresql backend to perform vacuum automatically
Neil Padgett wrote:
> On Tue, 2002-03-05 at 15:59, Bruce Momjian wrote:
> > > > > If they do not affect performance, then why have them off?
> > > > 
> > > > I think Jan said 2-3%.  If we can get autovacuum from it, it would be a
> > > > win to keep it on all the time, perhaps.
> > > 
> > > Assuming that the statistics get updated:
> > > 
> > > How often should the sats table be queried?
> > > What sort of configurability would be needed?
> > 
> > You could wake up every few minutes and see how the values have changed.
> > I don't remember if there is a way to clear that stats so you can see
> > just the changes in the past five minutes.  Vacuum the table that had
> > activity.
> 
> Ick -- polling. The statistics process should be able to wake somebody
> up / notify the postmaster when the statistics change such that a vacuum
> is required.

Yes, that would tie that stats collector closer to auto-vacuum, but it
certainly could be done.

-- 
  Bruce Momjian                        |  http://candle.pha.pa.us
  pgman@candle.pha.pa.us               |  (610) 853-3000
  +  If your life is a hard drive,     |  830 Blythe Avenue
  +  Christ can be your backup.        |  Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026

Tue, 5 Mar 2002 16:54:47 -0500 (EST)
Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>
Re: Postgresql backend to perform vacuum automatically
Bruce Momjian wrote:
> 
> Neil Padgett wrote:
> > On Tue, 2002-03-05 at 15:59, Bruce Momjian wrote:
> > > > > > If they do not affect performance, then why have them off?
> > > > >
> > > > > I think Jan said 2-3%.  If we can get autovacuum from it, it would be a
> > > > > win to keep it on all the time, perhaps.
> > > >
> > > > Assuming that the statistics get updated:
> > > >
> > > > How often should the sats table be queried?
> > > > What sort of configurability would be needed?
> > >
> > > You could wake up every few minutes and see how the values have changed.
> > > I don't remember if there is a way to clear that stats so you can see
> > > just the changes in the past five minutes.  Vacuum the table that had
> > > activity.
> >
> > Ick -- polling. The statistics process should be able to wake somebody
> > up / notify the postmaster when the statistics change such that a vacuum
> > is required.
> 
> Yes, that would tie that stats collector closer to auto-vacuum, but it
> certainly could be done.

Using an alert can be done, but polling is easier for a proof of concept. I
dont see too much difficulty there. We could use notify.

Tue, 05 Mar 2002 16:56:24 -0500
mlw <markw@mohawksoft.com>
Re: Postgresql backend to perform vacuum automatically
>>>>> "Bruce" == Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us> writes:

    >> Are there tables that track information that would be useful
    >> for guiding vacuum? Could I write a program which queries some
    >> statistical tables and and knows which tables need to be
    >> vacuumed?
    >> 
    >> If the info is around, I could whip up something pretty easily,
    >> I think.

    Bruce> Sure, Jan's new statistics tables in 7.2 had just that
    Bruce> info.
	
    Bruce> 	test=> \d pg_stat_user_tables

I don't have that table. Only 'pg_statistic'... ?
-- 
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06 Mar 2002 10:06:29 +0100
Turbo Fredriksson <turbo@bayour.com>
Re: Postgresql backend to perform vacuum automatically
Turbo Fredriksson wrote:
> >>>>> "Bruce" == Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us> writes:
> 
>     >> Are there tables that track information that would be useful
>     >> for guiding vacuum? Could I write a program which queries some
>     >> statistical tables and and knows which tables need to be
>     >> vacuumed?
>     >> 
>     >> If the info is around, I could whip up something pretty easily,
>     >> I think.
> 
>     Bruce> Sure, Jan's new statistics tables in 7.2 had just that
>     Bruce> info.
> 	
>     Bruce> 	test=> \d pg_stat_user_tables
> 
> I don't have that table. Only 'pg_statistic'... ?

Upgrade to 7.2.

-- 
  Bruce Momjian                        |  http://candle.pha.pa.us
  pgman@candle.pha.pa.us               |  (610) 853-3000
  +  If your life is a hard drive,     |  830 Blythe Avenue
  +  Christ can be your backup.        |  Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026

Wed, 6 Mar 2002 09:35:17 -0500 (EST)
Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>
Re: Postgresql backend to perform vacuum automatically
>>>>> "Bruce" == Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us> writes:

    Bruce> Turbo Fredriksson wrote:
    >> >>>>> "Bruce" == Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us> writes:
    >> 
    >> >> Are there tables that track information that would be useful
    >> >> for guiding vacuum? Could I write a program which queries
    >> some >> statistical tables and and knows which tables need to
    >> be >> vacuumed?
    >> >> 
    >> >> If the info is around, I could whip up something pretty
    >> easily, >> I think.
    >> 
    Bruce> Sure, Jan's new statistics tables in 7.2 had just that
    Bruce> info.
    >>
    Bruce> test=> \d pg_stat_user_tables
    >>  I don't have that table. Only 'pg_statistic'... ?

    Bruce> Upgrade to 7.2.

Doh! I have :)
-- 
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06 Mar 2002 17:18:15 +0100
Turbo Fredriksson <turbo@bayour.com>
Re: Postgresql backend to perform vacuum automatically