On Mon, 1 Oct 2001, Bruce Momjian wrote:

> > Marc,
> >
> > it worked, but now I'm again getting:
> >
> > cvs server: failed to create lock directory for /projects/cvsroot/pgsql/contrib/pgcrypto/expected' (/projects/cvsroot/pgsql/contrib/pgcrypto/expected/#cvs.lock): Permission denied
> > cvs server: failed to obtain dir lock in repository /projects/cvsroot/pgsql/contrib/pgcrypto/expected'
> > cvs [server aborted]: read lock failed - giving up
> >
> > Seems, again wrong permissions
>
> Those are directories I just created.  They have the same permission as
> all the other files here.  Maybe there is a problem with CVS server
> creating stuff with the wrong permission.

Please also check things on the anoncvs server (if it's different).

Take care,

Bill


Sun, 30 Sep 2001 08:19:20 -0700 (PDT)
Bill Studenmund <wrstuden@netbsd.org>
Re: cvs problem
Marc,

what's happens with cvs ? I still can't update:

cvs server: failed to create lock directory for /projects/cvsroot/pgsql/contrib/pgstattuple' (/projects/cvsroot/pgsql/contrib/pgstattuple/#cvs.lock): Permission denied
cvs server: failed to obtain dir lock in repository /projects/cvsroot/pgsql/contrib/pgstattuple'
cvs [server aborted]: read lock failed - giving up

	Regards,
		Oleg
_____________________________________________________________
Oleg Bartunov, sci.researcher, hostmaster of AstroNet,
Sternberg Astronomical Institute, Moscow University (Russia)
Internet: oleg@sai.msu.su, http://www.sai.msu.su/~megera/
phone: +007(095)939-16-83, +007(095)939-23-83


Mon, 1 Oct 2001 17:37:41 +0300 (GMT)
Oleg Bartunov <oleg@sai.msu.su>
cvs problem
Oleg Bartunov <oleg@sai.msu.su> writes:
> what's happens with cvs ? I still can't update:

> cvs server: failed to create lock directory for /projects/cvsroot/pgsql/contrib/pgstattuple' (/projects/cvsroot/pgsql/contrib/pgstattuple/#cvs.lock): Permission denied
> cvs server: failed to obtain dir lock in repository /projects/cvsroot/pgsql/contrib/pgstattuple'
> cvs [server aborted]: read lock failed - giving up

Hmm.  That's a new directory that Tatsuo just created.  I bet the
umask or group ID that the cvs server is running under is wrong.

			regards, tom lane

Mon, 01 Oct 2001 12:03:10 -0400
Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
Re: cvs problem 

should be fixed now ...


On Mon, 1 Oct 2001, Oleg Bartunov wrote:

> Marc,
>
> what's happens with cvs ? I still can't update:
>
> cvs server: failed to create lock directory for /projects/cvsroot/pgsql/contrib/pgstattuple' (/projects/cvsroot/pgsql/contrib/pgstattuple/#cvs.lock): Permission denied
> cvs server: failed to obtain dir lock in repository /projects/cvsroot/pgsql/contrib/pgstattuple'
> cvs [server aborted]: read lock failed - giving up
>
> 	Regards,
> 		Oleg
> _____________________________________________________________
> Oleg Bartunov, sci.researcher, hostmaster of AstroNet,
> Sternberg Astronomical Institute, Moscow University (Russia)
> Internet: oleg@sai.msu.su, http://www.sai.msu.su/~megera/
> phone: +007(095)939-16-83, +007(095)939-23-83
>
>


Mon, 1 Oct 2001 12:10:17 -0400 (EDT)
"Marc G. Fournier" <scrappy@hub.org>
Re: cvs problem
Marc,

it worked, but now I'm again getting:

cvs server: failed to create lock directory for /projects/cvsroot/pgsql/contrib/pgcrypto/expected' (/projects/cvsroot/pgsql/contrib/pgcrypto/expected/#cvs.lock): Permission denied
cvs server: failed to obtain dir lock in repository /projects/cvsroot/pgsql/contrib/pgcrypto/expected'
cvs [server aborted]: read lock failed - giving up

Seems, again wrong permissions

	Regards,

		Oleg
On Mon, 1 Oct 2001, Marc G. Fournier wrote:

>
> should be fixed now ...
>
>
> On Mon, 1 Oct 2001, Oleg Bartunov wrote:
>
> > Marc,
> >
> > what's happens with cvs ? I still can't update:
> >
> > cvs server: failed to create lock directory for /projects/cvsroot/pgsql/contrib/pgstattuple' (/projects/cvsroot/pgsql/contrib/pgstattuple/#cvs.lock): Permission denied
> > cvs server: failed to obtain dir lock in repository /projects/cvsroot/pgsql/contrib/pgstattuple'
> > cvs [server aborted]: read lock failed - giving up
> >
> > 	Regards,
> > 		Oleg
> > _____________________________________________________________
> > Oleg Bartunov, sci.researcher, hostmaster of AstroNet,
> > Sternberg Astronomical Institute, Moscow University (Russia)
> > Internet: oleg@sai.msu.su, http://www.sai.msu.su/~megera/
> > phone: +007(095)939-16-83, +007(095)939-23-83
> >
> >
>
>
> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
> TIP 4: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
>

	Regards,
		Oleg
_____________________________________________________________
Oleg Bartunov, sci.researcher, hostmaster of AstroNet,
Sternberg Astronomical Institute, Moscow University (Russia)
Internet: oleg@sai.msu.su, http://www.sai.msu.su/~megera/
phone: +007(095)939-16-83, +007(095)939-23-83


Mon, 1 Oct 2001 22:11:52 +0300 (GMT)
Oleg Bartunov <oleg@sai.msu.su>
Re: cvs problem
> Marc,
> 
> it worked, but now I'm again getting:
> 
> cvs server: failed to create lock directory for /projects/cvsroot/pgsql/contrib/pgcrypto/expected' (/projects/cvsroot/pgsql/contrib/pgcrypto/expected/#cvs.lock): Permission denied
> cvs server: failed to obtain dir lock in repository /projects/cvsroot/pgsql/contrib/pgcrypto/expected'
> cvs [server aborted]: read lock failed - giving up
> 
> Seems, again wrong permissions

Those are directories I just created.  They have the same permission as
all the other files here.  Maybe there is a problem with CVS server
creating stuff with the wrong permission.

-- 
  Bruce Momjian                        |  http://candle.pha.pa.us
  pgman@candle.pha.pa.us               |  (610) 853-3000
  +  If your life is a hard drive,     |  830 Blythe Avenue
  +  Christ can be your backup.        |  Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026

Mon, 1 Oct 2001 15:31:41 -0400 (EDT)
Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>
Re: cvs problem

> Those are directories I just created.  They have the same permission as
> all the other files here.  Maybe there is a problem with CVS server
> creating stuff with the wrong permission.

 From my experience, it is likely that you have a umask problem. Or there
is some other read/write permissions problem for group and other.

Please dive into the cvs repository and check the files (and directory,
which seems to be lacking group write permission) Bruce.

                     - Thomas

Mon, 01 Oct 2001 21:05:22 +0000
Thomas Lockhart <lockhart@fourpalms.org>
Re: cvs problem
> 
> > Those are directories I just created.  They have the same permission as
> > all the other files here.  Maybe there is a problem with CVS server
> > creating stuff with the wrong permission.
> 
> >From my experience, it is likely that you have a umask problem. Or there
> is some other read/write permissions problem for group and other.
> 
> Please dive into the cvs repository and check the files (and directory,
> which seems to be lacking group write permission) Bruce.

OK, I see:

drwxrwxr-x  2 momjian  pgsql    512 Oct  1 15:53 sql

and in the SQL directory I see:

-r--r--r--  1 momjian  pgsql  1843 Oct  1 12:12 blowfish.sql,v
-r--r--r--  1 momjian  pgsql   600 Oct  1 12:12 crypt-blowfish.sql,v
-r--r--r--  1 momjian  pgsql   547 Oct  1 12:12 crypt-des.sql,v
-r--r--r--  1 momjian  pgsql   559 Oct  1 12:12 crypt-md5.sql,v
-r--r--r--  1 momjian  pgsql   571 Oct  1 12:12 crypt-xdes.sql,v
-r--r--r--  1 momjian  pgsql  1529 Oct  1 12:12 hmac-md5.sql,v
-r--r--r--  1 momjian  pgsql  1536 Oct  1 12:12 hmac-sha1.sql,v
-r--r--r--  1 momjian  pgsql   350 Oct  1 12:12 init.sql,v
-r--r--r--  1 momjian  pgsql   694 Oct  1 12:12 md5.sql,v
-r--r--r--  1 momjian  pgsql  1371 Oct  1 12:12 rijndael.sql,v
-r--r--r--  1 momjian  pgsql   702 Oct  1 12:12 sha1.sql,v

I don't know what else to look for.  Ideas?

-- 
  Bruce Momjian                        |  http://candle.pha.pa.us
  pgman@candle.pha.pa.us               |  (610) 853-3000
  +  If your life is a hard drive,     |  830 Blythe Avenue
  +  Christ can be your backup.        |  Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026

Mon, 1 Oct 2001 17:10:36 -0400 (EDT)
Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>
Re: cvs problem
> 
> > Those are directories I just created.  They have the same permission as
> > all the other files here.  Maybe there is a problem with CVS server
> > creating stuff with the wrong permission.
> 
> >From my experience, it is likely that you have a umask problem. Or there
> is some other read/write permissions problem for group and other.
> 
> Please dive into the cvs repository and check the files (and directory,
> which seems to be lacking group write permission) Bruce.

The one thing I can't check is the anoncvs directory.  Not sure if that
is the same as the CVS directory.

-- 
  Bruce Momjian                        |  http://candle.pha.pa.us
  pgman@candle.pha.pa.us               |  (610) 853-3000
  +  If your life is a hard drive,     |  830 Blythe Avenue
  +  Christ can be your backup.        |  Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026

Mon, 1 Oct 2001 17:22:58 -0400 (EDT)
Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>
Re: cvs problem
Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us> writes:
> The one thing I can't check is the anoncvs directory.  Not sure if that
> is the same as the CVS directory.

It is the anoncvs server that's broken.  The committers don't seem to be
having any problem with accesses to the primary server.  I suspect that
there's a umask or group-membership issue on the anoncvs machine only.

			regards, tom lane

Mon, 01 Oct 2001 17:57:02 -0400
Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
Re: cvs problem 
On Mon, 1 Oct 2001, Bruce Momjian wrote:


> > Marc,
> >
> > it worked, but now I'm again getting:
> >
> > cvs server: failed to create lock directory for /projects/cvsroot/pgsql/contrib/pgcrypto/expected' (/projects/cvsroot/pgsql/contrib/pgcrypto/expected/#cvs.lock): Permission denied
> > cvs server: failed to obtain dir lock in repository /projects/cvsroot/pgsql/contrib/pgcrypto/expected'
> > cvs [server aborted]: read lock failed - giving up
> >
> > Seems, again wrong permissions
>
> Those are directories I just created.  They have the same permission as
> all the other files here.  Maybe there is a problem with CVS server
> creating stuff with the wrong permission.


Did you change versions of cvs (the software)? I had a little fiddle with it some time ago, and there was a change whereby the newer version didn't do what I wanted.





Tue, 2 Oct 2001 07:11:21 +0800 (WST)
John Summerfield <pgtest@os2.ami.com.au>
Re: cvs problem
On Mon, 1 Oct 2001, Tom Lane wrote:


> Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us> writes:
> > The one thing I can't check is the anoncvs directory.  Not sure if that
> > is the same as the CVS directory.
>
> It is the anoncvs server that's broken.  The committers don't seem to be
> having any problem with accesses to the primary server.  I suspect that
> there's a umask or group-membership issue on the anoncvs machine only.


It seems you don't have to be new here to be a bit peeved about things;-(


I'm peeved because I found instructions on how to checkout with anonymous CVS and did so a few times.

I had a find old time finding and reporting problems (with the software).

Then CVS stopped working because someone thought it a fine idea to reorganise the directory structure, to change the CVSROOT. No matter the user who had the old one stored on their computers.


I've report it twice, pointing out that what I did before worked, and that I was doing coincided with what the web pages said.

There was discussion that the web pages were wrong and who's job it was to fix. As an invited guest, I reckon it's the CVS repository that is wrong. It's wrong because it's different from what worked before.


Time to get your act together fellas.





Tue, 2 Oct 2001 07:33:52 +0800 (WST)
John Summerfield <pgtest@os2.ami.com.au>
Re: cvs problem 
> > The one thing I can't check is the anoncvs directory.  Not sure if that
> > is the same as the CVS directory.
> 
> It is the anoncvs server that's broken.  The committers don't seem to be
> having any problem with accesses to the primary server.  I suspect that
> there's a umask or group-membership issue on the anoncvs machine only.

Ack!  Before everyone under the sun claims to have found a problem: the 
user that the anon cvs pserver is running under can't create lock files 
in the src dirs inline w/ the code).  A few things can happen:

1)  Add the cvs pserver user to the pgsql group and add write privs to 
the dirs for the user (chmod -R g+w *)

2)  Add a LockDir in the cvs config.

  cvs co CVSROOT
  cd CVSROOT
  echo "LockDir /tmp/cvsroot" >> config
  cvs ci -m "Adding a central lock dir to the anoncvs server" config
  mkdir /tmp/cvsroot
  chmod 1777 /tmp/cvsroot
  chown root.wheel /tmp/cvsroot

  I think that should do it...  -sc

-- 
Sean Chittenden

Mon, 1 Oct 2001 22:07:27 -0700
Sean Chittenden <sean-pgsql-hackers@chittenden.org>
Re: cvs problem
On Tue, 2 Oct 2001, John Summerfield wrote:

> On Mon, 1 Oct 2001, Tom Lane wrote:
>
>
> > Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us> writes:
> > > The one thing I can't check is the anoncvs directory.  Not sure if that
> > > is the same as the CVS directory.
> >
> > It is the anoncvs server that's broken.  The committers don't seem to be
> > having any problem with accesses to the primary server.  I suspect that
> > there's a umask or group-membership issue on the anoncvs machine only.
>
>
> It seems you don't have to be new here to be a bit peeved about things;-(
>
>
> I'm peeved because I found instructions on how to checkout with anonymous CVS and did so a few times.
>
> I had a find old time finding and reporting problems (with the software).
>
> Then CVS stopped working because someone thought it a fine idea to reorganise the directory structure, to change the CVSROOT. No matter the user who had the old one stored on their computers.

Gee, I didn't realize we were doing it just cuze "someone thought it a
fine idea"

> I've report it twice, pointing out that what I did before worked, and that I was doing coincided with what the web pages said.
>
> There was discussion that the web pages were wrong and who's job it was to fix. As an invited guest, I reckon it's the CVS repository that is wrong. It's wrong because it's different from what worked before.

I just looked in cvs and it looks fine there.

> Time to get your act together fellas.

Gee, I didn't realize we were screwing off.

Vince.
-- 
==========================================================================
Vince Vielhaber -- KA8CSH    email: vev@michvhf.com    http://www.pop4.net
         56K Nationwide Dialup from $16.00/mo at Pop4 Networking
        Online Campground Directory    http://www.camping-usa.com
       Online Giftshop Superstore    http://www.cloudninegifts.com
==========================================================================




Tue, 2 Oct 2001 11:47:59 -0400 (EDT)
Vince Vielhaber <vev@michvhf.com>
Re: cvs problem 
On Monday 01 October 2001 07:33 pm, John Summerfield wrote:
> It seems you don't have to be new here to be a bit peeved about things;-(
[snip]
> Time to get your act together fellas.

This is open source John, not rocket science. (pun intended)

Lighten up.  The release will happen, regardless of minor server issues (that 
are being worked out right now, even as I write, by highly capable 
professionals, who, BTW, are doing this on a volunteer basis).
-- 
Lamar Owen
WGCR Internet Radio
1 Peter 4:11

Tue, 2 Oct 2001 12:35:45 -0400
Lamar Owen <lamar.owen@wgcr.org>
Re: cvs problem
On Tue, 2 Oct 2001, Vince Vielhaber wrote:


> On Tue, 2 Oct 2001, John Summerfield wrote:
>
> > On Mon, 1 Oct 2001, Tom Lane wrote:
> >
> >
> > > Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us> writes:
> > > > The one thing I can't check is the anoncvs directory.  Not sure if that
> > > > is the same as the CVS directory.
> > >
> > > It is the anoncvs server that's broken.  The committers don't seem to be
> > > having any problem with accesses to the primary server.  I suspect that
> > > there's a umask or group-membership issue on the anoncvs machine only.
> >
> >
> > It seems you don't have to be new here to be a bit peeved about things;-(
> >
> >
> > I'm peeved because I found instructions on how to checkout with anonymous CVS and did so a few times.
> >
> > I had a find old time finding and reporting problems (with the software).
> >
> > Then CVS stopped working because someone thought it a fine idea to reorganise the directory structure, to change the CVSROOT. No matter the user who had the old one stored on their computers.
>
> Gee, I didn't realize we were doing it just cuze "someone thought it a
> fine idea"

Then why didn't you put it back the way it had been when it worked? When someone does a cvs login, cvs records the value for CVSROOT.

You made everyone's cvs login fail.

I don't see the sense in that.


And then you diddle round endlessly instead of telling me what I had to do to fix YOUR mistake.


I hope you're in better shape by beta time.


And instead of componding the problem with rudeness, listen to it. You don't have to like the message or the language, but there are reasons for both.





Thu, 4 Oct 2001 07:29:32 +0800 (WST)
John Summerfield <pgtest@os2.ami.com.au>
Re: cvs problem 
On Tue, 2 Oct 2001, Lamar Owen wrote:


> On Monday 01 October 2001 07:33 pm, John Summerfield wrote:
> > It seems you don't have to be new here to be a bit peeved about things;-(
> [snip]
> > Time to get your act together fellas.
>
> This is open source John, not rocket science. (pun intended)

Hmm. Kids I was at school with were building rockets in their backyards.
OSS is similarly a backyard affair. Awhere's the difference;-)


>
> Lighten up.  The release will happen, regardless of minor server issues (that
> are being worked out right now, even as I write, by highly capable
> professionals, who, BTW, are doing this on a volunteer basis).

I appreciate the volunteer point. However, a project in disarray is a project in disarray
whether volunteer or not.

And the discussion that followed my original report of the CVS problem looked to me
 more like finger-pointing than a real effort to locate and fix the problem, or to help me on my way.

I know I'm not well-known here, but I've made my contributions in other arenas where I'm stronger.

PG isn't perfect - we all know that. Nor is the project administration. When there's a problem identified, someone has to take responsibility for fixing it, and someone has to ensure the person reporting the problem has a way forward.


Changing the CVS repository so it doesn't work the same way any more isn't smart. Having wrong documentation isn't smart. Taking two weeks and NOT fixing a simple problem isn't smart. Giving wrong advice isn't smart. Test your advice - where possible I do.

"Lighten up" isn't the right response. Examine your project. See what points
I make have merit. Welcome criticism. You don't have to like the message you know;-)






Thu, 4 Oct 2001 07:53:43 +0800 (WST)
John Summerfield <pgtest@os2.ami.com.au>
Re: cvs problem
> Changing the CVS repository so it doesn't work the same way any
> more isn't smart. Having wrong documentation isn't smart. Taking
> two weeks and NOT fixing a simple problem isn't smart. Giving
> wrong advice isn't smart. Test your advice - where possible I
> do.

I will consider this point valid.  When we changed CVS download steps,
we should have updated the CVS web page right away.  I did update the
SGML version, but for other reasons, the web version didn't update and
that caused great confusion.

--
  Bruce Momjian                        |  http://candle.pha.pa.us
  pgman@candle.pha.pa.us               |  (610) 853-3000
  +  If your life is a hard drive,     |  830 Blythe Avenue
  +  Christ can be your backup.        |  Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026

Thu, 4 Oct 2001 11:32:42 -0400 (EDT)
Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>
Re: cvs problem

On Thu, 4 Oct 2001, John Summerfield wrote:

> On Tue, 2 Oct 2001, Lamar Owen wrote:
> 
> 
> > On Monday 01 October 2001 07:33 pm, John Summerfield wrote:
> > > It seems you don't have to be new here to be a bit peeved about things;-(
> > [snip]
> > > Time to get your act together fellas.
> >
> > This is open source John, not rocket science. (pun intended)
> >
> > Lighten up.  The release will happen, regardless of minor server issues (that
> > are being worked out right now, even as I write, by highly capable
> > professionals, who, BTW, are doing this on a volunteer basis).
> 
> Changing the CVS repository so it doesn't work the same way any more
> isn't smart. Having wrong documentation isn't smart. Taking two weeks
> and NOT fixing a simple problem isn't smart. Giving wrong advice isn't
> smart. Test your advice - where possible I do.
> 
> "Lighten up" isn't the right response. Examine your project. See what points
> I make have merit. Welcome criticism. You don't have to like the message you know;-)

Actually, I think "Lighten up" was a reasonable response, given the tone
of the message this was in response to which appears to be what Lamar was
responding to.  Besides, there's a far cry from a message of constructive
criticism and the message this was in response to.  The point that the
documentation and reality need to match up is a good one, but saying
that "It's wrong because it's different from what worked before" isn't
reasonable.  Saying, "This change is unfortunate and did it really have
to happen and why?  And the documentation and the server realities really
have to match up.  Perhaps changing the page first with a note of both
configurations with an estimated time change for the server would have
been better/the right way to do this" is reasonable.


Thu, 4 Oct 2001 08:33:30 -0700 (PDT)
Stephan Szabo <sszabo@megazone23.bigpanda.com>
Re: cvs problem
On Thu, 4 Oct 2001, John Summerfield wrote:

> I know I'm not well-known here, but I've made my contributions in other arenas where I'm stronger.
>
> PG isn't perfect - we all know that. Nor is the project administration. When there's a problem identified, someone has to take responsibility for fixing it, and someone has to ensure the person reporting the problem has a way forward.
>
>
> Changing the CVS repository so it doesn't work the same way any more isn't smart. Having wrong documentation isn't smart. Taking two weeks and NOT fixing a simple problem isn't smart. Giving wrong advice isn't smart. Test your advice - where possible I do.
>
> "Lighten up" isn't the right response. Examine your project. See what points
> I make have merit. Welcome criticism. You don't have to like the message you know;-)

Do you know why you're not well known?  With the pissy attitude you're
showing here more and more folks tend to just drop your email in the
bit bucket - like this...

   *** PLONK ***

Vince.
-- 
==========================================================================
Vince Vielhaber -- KA8CSH    email: vev@michvhf.com    http://www.pop4.net
         56K Nationwide Dialup from $16.00/mo at Pop4 Networking
        Online Campground Directory    http://www.camping-usa.com
       Online Giftshop Superstore    http://www.cloudninegifts.com
==========================================================================




Thu, 4 Oct 2001 11:33:37 -0400 (EDT)
Vince Vielhaber <vev@michvhf.com>
Re: cvs problem
...
> I hope you're in better shape by beta time.

Hi John. I would highly recommend taking a deep breath and coming back
in a couple of weeks. Things should have settled down by then and we
will have returned to your high standards of service and support. In the
meantime, folks are busy getting us there...

Regards.

                        - Thomas

Thu, 04 Oct 2001 17:51:58 +0000
Thomas Lockhart <lockhart@fourpalms.org>
Re: cvs problem
On Wednesday 03 October 2001 07:53 pm, John Summerfield wrote:
> On Tue, 2 Oct 2001, Lamar Owen wrote:
> > On Monday 01 October 2001 07:33 pm, John Summerfield wrote:
> > > Time to get your act together fellas.

> > This is open source John, not rocket science. (pun intended)

> Hmm. Kids I was at school with were building rockets in their backyards.
> OSS is similarly a backyard affair. Awhere's the difference;-)

But that's a _hobby_, not 'rocket science' -- and the pun was that there _is_ 
a rocket scientist among us....  Lots of us here are doing this as a hobby.

> > Lighten up.  The release will happen, regardless of minor server issues
> > (that are being worked out right now, even as I write, by highly capable
> > professionals, who, BTW, are doing this on a volunteer basis).

> I appreciate the volunteer point. However, a project in disarray is a
> project in disarray whether volunteer or not.

Two weeks of disarray versus 5 years of soloid performance.  You'd think a 
couple of weeks of temporary pain wouldn't be a big deal.

> PG isn't perfect - we all know that. Nor is the project administration.
> When there's a problem identified, someone has to take responsibility for
> fixing it, and someone has to ensure the person reporting the problem has a
> way forward.

And the problem is being addressed.  Patience is a good watchword.

> "Lighten up" isn't the right response. Examine your project. See what
> points I make have merit. Welcome criticism. You don't have to like the
> message you know;-)

No, I don't have to like the message.  But the message can be phrased in a 
more polite way, as has been pointed out.  You were just being a little too 
_serious_ about it, that's all.  Give it a week or two, and things will be 
OK. The issues are in Vince and Marc's very capable hands -- but, as Marc 
said, this stuff has lived in the same place for >5 years -- and lots of 
interdependencies had to be addressed.  And they _are_being addressed.
-- 
Lamar Owen
WGCR Internet Radio
1 Peter 4:11

Thu, 4 Oct 2001 17:18:29 -0400
Lamar Owen <lamar.owen@wgcr.org>
Re: cvs problem
On Thu, 4 Oct 2001, Lamar Owen wrote:


> On Wednesday 03 October 2001 07:53 pm, John Summerfield wrote:
> > On Tue, 2 Oct 2001, Lamar Owen wrote:
> > > On Monday 01 October 2001 07:33 pm, John Summerfield wrote:
> > > > Time to get your act together fellas.
>
> > > This is open source John, not rocket science. (pun intended)
>
> > Hmm. Kids I was at school with were building rockets in their backyards.
> > OSS is similarly a backyard affair. Awhere's the difference;-)
>
> But that's a _hobby_, not 'rocket science' -- and the pun was that there _is_
> a rocket scientist among us....  Lots of us here are doing this as a hobby.

Well, I don't know the backgrounds of the folk here, any more than you know mine;-)

And as far as I can tell, most open-source workers can properly be described as hobbyists.
I know some get paid for their efforts, but not a lot.



> > > Lighten up.  The release will happen, regardless of minor server issues
> > > (that are being worked out right now, even as I write, by highly capable
> > > professionals, who, BTW, are doing this on a volunteer basis).
>
> > I appreciate the volunteer point. However, a project in disarray is a
> > project in disarray whether volunteer or not.

Well, remember I only arrived here in the past two weeks. What I've seen has not been
reassuring.

>
> Two weeks of disarray versus 5 years of soloid performance.  You'd think a
> couple of weeks of temporary pain wouldn't be a big deal.
>
> > PG isn't perfect - we all know that. Nor is the project administration.
> > When there's a problem identified, someone has to take responsibility for
> > fixing it, and someone has to ensure the person reporting the problem has a
> > way forward.
>
> And the problem is being addressed.  Patience is a good watchword.

It's hard to believe there's a serious effort being made to fix a problem when all the effort
I can see has no apparent relationship to the problem.

> > "Lighten up" isn't the right response. Examine your project. See what
> > points I make have merit. Welcome criticism. You don't have to like the
> > message you know;-)
>
> No, I don't have to like the message.  But the message can be phrased in a
> more polite way, as has been pointed out.  You were just being a little too
> _serious_ about it, that's all.  Give it a week or two, and things will be

I don't think I was being rude. It's true I'm no diplomat. I've criticised actions (and,
I think, with considerable justice), but I've not actually criticised people.

We all make mistakes, we should all be ready for them to be pointed out.



> OK. The issues are in Vince and Marc's very capable hands -- but, as Marc
> said, this stuff has lived in the same place for >5 years -- and lots of
> interdependencies had to be addressed.  And they _are_being addressed.


And my point is that something moved. Something that many people (I don't know how many,
but thousands wouldn't surprise me) depended on.

I have over thirty years' experience in computing, many of them supporting users. That experiece
tells me that making a change that inconveniences users is a mistake. If the change really must
be made, do it so as to reduce the inconvenience as far as possible.

 From my other readinds I see that the PG team controls the entire disk layout. Given that, I can
see no reason that the CVS tree needed to be changed in the way it was.

I still think it should be made to work the old way; both ways, now, as there are people
who depend on both structures.









Fri, 5 Oct 2001 09:40:22 +0800 (WST)
John Summerfield <pgtest@os2.ami.com.au>
Re: cvs problem
On Thu, 4 Oct 2001, Stephan Szabo wrote:


> of the message this was in response to which appears to be what Lamar was
> responding to.  Besides, there's a far cry from a message of constructive
> criticism and the message this was in response to.  The point that the
> documentation and reality need to match up is a good one, but saying
> that "It's wrong because it's different from what worked before" isn't
> reasonable.  Saying, "This change is unfortunate and did it really have
> to happen and why?  And the documentation and the server realities really
> have to match up.  Perhaps changing the page first with a note of both
> configurations with an estimated time change for the server would have
> been better/the right way to do this" is reasonable.
>

How many people use anonymouse CVS? Hundreds? Thousands? Tens of thousands?

You must have been fixing a pretty serious problem to justify inconveniencing them all. And
if it really is that serious, add a word of explanation (to forestall problem reports)
and apology.


That is the point of my complaint. If it was just me, I'd shrug my shoulders and
(once I figured out how) get on with it.





Fri, 5 Oct 2001 10:03:14 +0800 (WST)
John Summerfield <pgtest@os2.ami.com.au>
Re: cvs problem
On Fri, 5 Oct 2001, John Summerfield wrote:

> I don't think I was being rude. It's true I'm no diplomat. I've
> criticised actions (and, I think, with considerable justice), but I've
> not actually criticised people.

How can your criticisms be 'with considerable justice' (justification?)
when you have no more then 2 weeks knowledge of the project and/or the ppl
involved in it?  For starters, this 'move' has been going on for more then
2 weeks now, and this last phase has been the one withthe most hiccups, as
its also been the one with the most ppl affected ...

> And my point is that something moved. Something that many people (I
> don't know how many, but thousands wouldn't surprise me) depended on.

I'd be surprised if most of what moved affected hundreds ...

> I have over thirty years' experience in computing, many of them
> supporting users. That experiece tells me that making a change that
> inconveniences users is a mistake. If the change really must be made,
> do it so as to reduce the inconvenience as far as possible.

As you have only been here 2 weeks, what do you know about what did (or
didn't) need to be done?  Or about the work that went into making the
whole change as painless as possible?  CVS was the most painful, and there
were forewarnings about it, to the extent that we made sure that those
with changes to commit weren't affected before they changed ...

"End users", IMHO, it should have been totally irrelevant too ... remove
and re-check out the tree ... but, then again, I believe it was PeterE
that even posted a 'how to change your CVS to point to the new server'
script, so that those users weren't inconvience as well ...

if you are going to play with CVS, then deal with problems that *will*
arise as a result of it ... else, download the .tar.gz files like everyone
else ...

> From my other readinds I see that the PG team controls the entire disk
> layout. Given that, I can see no reason that the CVS tree needed to be
> changed in the way it was.

well, for one, its easier to remember:

	/cvsroot

then

	/home/projects/pgsql/cvsroot



Fri, 5 Oct 2001 08:22:41 -0400 (EDT)
"Marc G. Fournier" <scrappy@hub.org>
Re: cvs problem
On Fri, 5 Oct 2001, John Summerfield wrote:

> On Thu, 4 Oct 2001, Stephan Szabo wrote:
>
>
> > of the message this was in response to which appears to be what Lamar was
> > responding to.  Besides, there's a far cry from a message of constructive
> > criticism and the message this was in response to.  The point that the
> > documentation and reality need to match up is a good one, but saying
> > that "It's wrong because it's different from what worked before" isn't
> > reasonable.  Saying, "This change is unfortunate and did it really have
> > to happen and why?  And the documentation and the server realities really
> > have to match up.  Perhaps changing the page first with a note of both
> > configurations with an estimated time change for the server would have
> > been better/the right way to do this" is reasonable.
> >
>
> How many people use anonymouse CVS? Hundreds? Thousands? Tens of thousands?

Hundreds, maybe ...

> You must have been fixing a pretty serious problem to justify
> inconveniencing them all. And if it really is that serious, add a word
> of explanation (to forestall problem reports) and apology.

Ummm, all of these changes and moves were forewarned ... obvious that was
before you came on the scene with your "in a perfect world" assessments
...

> That is the point of my complaint. If it was just me, I'd shrug my
> shoulders and (once I figured out how) get on with it.

Obviously it is/was only you, cause nobody else appear to give two shakes
...



Fri, 5 Oct 2001 08:24:11 -0400 (EDT)
"Marc G. Fournier" <scrappy@hub.org>
Re: cvs problem
On Thursday 04 October 2001 09:40 pm, John Summerfield wrote:
> Well, remember I only arrived here in the past two weeks. What I've seen
> has not been reassuring.

May I be so bold as to suggest your taking a few hours of your time and 
reading the last six months to a year of the list's archives? :-)

I did just that a little over two years ago when I (somewhat rudely, I may 
add) grabbed the RPM bull by the specfile horns -- I read the previous two 
years of archives to get a feel for the culture of the group first.   As I 
can read 1200-1600 words per minute, I'm able to process 10-15k messages per 
day easily. (My daily load is right now around 1k messages per day, along 
with all my other broadcast engineering related work).  1k messages takes a 
little over half an hour.

> It's hard to believe there's a serious effort being made to fix a problem
> when all the effort I can see has no apparent relationship to the problem.

The interdependencies run deep into areas that appear unrelated to the 
problem at hand.

> I don't think I was being rude. It's true I'm no diplomat. I've criticised
> actions (and, I think, with considerable justice), but I've not actually
> criticised people.

'You'd better get your act together fellas' was just a tad too critical for 
my taste, sorry.  I'm not known for being a diplomat either....  I've seen 
real flamewars, too, and your message was certainly not a flame, but just a 
tad too critical.  Had I considered it a flame I wouldn't have bothered 
replying.

> And my point is that something moved. Something that many people (I don't
> know how many, but thousands wouldn't surprise me) depended on.

> That experiece tells me that making a change that inconveniences
> users is a mistake.

Too much backwards compatibility is also a mistake.  If a person is tracking 
the bleeding-edge CVS, they are already having to watch for initdb-forcing 
changes -- a CVSROOT change is small potatoes compared to an initdb-force -- 
which happens _often_ during the development cycle.  There are other major 
changes that happen -- to the point where a fresh checkout might even be 
necessary, so that leftover files from previous local builds aren't present.  
That's just a part of using CVS, in my experience.

And this is not the only open source project that has changed CVSROOT on 
people -- in fact, this one has changed less than any of the other projects 
that I track with CVS.

Just a momentary pain, really.

> From my other readinds I see that the PG team controls the entire disk
> layout. Given that, I can see no reason that the CVS tree needed to be
> changed in the way it was.

Correction: Marc Fournier controls the entire disk layout, as it's his 
server.  It was his decision to change the layout.

> I still think it should be made to work the old way; both ways, now, as
> there are people who depend on both structures.

All you have to do to use the new layout is to blow away your checkout, login 
again with the new layout, and run another checkout.  It doesn't take long to 
do.  And it is now documented again, AFAIK.

It's a little more complicated for CVSup users, though.   And that's where 
Thomas (our resident rocket scientist) had his beef, along with the 
documentation build process, etc.  When docs build automatically, and you 
change the source document to reflect a change, but the build fails due to 
that very layout change, it can get pretty ugly.  And that's exactly what 
happened, from my perspective.
-- 
Lamar Owen
WGCR Internet Radio
1 Peter 4:11

Fri, 5 Oct 2001 11:05:42 -0400
Lamar Owen <lamar.owen@wgcr.org>
Re: cvs problem
On Fri, 5 Oct 2001, Lamar Owen wrote:


> On Thursday 04 October 2001 09:40 pm, John Summerfield wrote:
> > Well, remember I only arrived here in the past two weeks. What I've seen
> > has not been reassuring.
>
> May I be so bold as to suggest your taking a few hours of your time and
> reading the last six months to a year of the list's archives? :-)

I'm on several PG lists (and many others). I do entirely enough reading already.
And I don't read as quickly as you do.


>
> > It's hard to believe there's a serious effort being made to fix a problem
> > when all the effort I can see has no apparent relationship to the problem.
>
> The interdependencies run deep into areas that appear unrelated to the
> problem at hand.
>
> > I don't think I was being rude. It's true I'm no diplomat. I've criticised
> > actions (and, I think, with considerable justice), but I've not actually
> > criticised people.
>
> 'You'd better get your act together fellas' was just a tad too critical for
> my taste, sorry.  I'm not known for being a diplomat either....  I've seen
> real flamewars, too, and your message was certainly not a flame, but just a
> tad too critical.  Had I considered it a flame I wouldn't have bothered
> replying.

I made it clear I was getting frustrated. Read in that context, I think it was
pretty mild;-)


Especially considering the point I saw a project in disarray (and I don't think anyone's
disputed that).




> > And my point is that something moved. Something that many people (I don't
> > know how many, but thousands wouldn't surprise me) depended on.
>
> > That experiece tells me that making a change that inconveniences
> > users is a mistake.
>
> Too much backwards compatibility is also a mistake.  If a person is tracking
> the bleeding-edge CVS, they are already having to watch for initdb-forcing
> changes -- a CVSROOT change is small potatoes compared to an initdb-force --
> which happens _often_ during the development cycle.  There are other major
> changes that happen -- to the point where a fresh checkout might even be
> necessary, so that leftover files from previous local builds aren't present.
> That's just a part of using CVS, in my experience.

I'm prepared for the project itself breaking my data - that I expect is likely to happen.

Each time I do a CVS update, I rebuild my binaries and database.


>
> And this is not the only open source project that has changed CVSROOT on
> people -- in fact, this one has changed less than any of the other projects

I'm ingnorant. I don't see why CVSROOT would need to be changed. I thought
Unix filesystems were flexible enough to allow CVS to see things as they really aren't,
perhaps using symlinks.

And if one project does change it, I still don't see how that justifies another.

> that I track with CVS.
>
> Just a momentary pain, really.

 From what I can tell, completely unnecessary. And until somone explains why it
 was necessary, then I won't understand it.


>
> > From my other readinds I see that the PG team controls the entire disk
> > layout. Given that, I can see no reason that the CVS tree needed to be
> > changed in the way it was.
>
> Correction: Marc Fournier controls the entire disk layout, as it's his
> server.  It was his decision to change the layout.

Is Marc part of the team?


>
> > I still think it should be made to work the old way; both ways, now, as
> > there are people who depend on both structures.
>
> All you have to do to use the new layout is to blow away your checkout, login
> again with the new layout, and run another checkout.  It doesn't take long to
> do.  And it is now documented again, AFAIK.


And this is the first time someone has bothered to tell me, and it's weeks since the problem
 arose and I reported it (I had figured it out and got a new checkout).

Instead of telling me how to go on with my affairs, there ensured a discussion about the documentation being
wrong, about the devlopers corner shouldn't really be there and so on.

And replies to my problems enroling in these lists were no more helpful. I wanted to get on the
list because I felt I wasn't seeing all the relevant discussion of other problems, and in particular
what was broken wrt CVS.

Now, I've always thought that the first thing to do when someone has a problem is to give them the solution
to their problem if the solution is easily had.

In those two cases it would have taken someone a minute or two to say, Sorry 'bout that. Do this.'

To be sure if the Postgresql itself is broken, that may take longer, but that wasn't the case. The procedures
(from my point of view) or documentation (from yours) was wrong, and what I needed most was the knowledge
of what actually works.

And referring me to the incorrect documentation didn't serve to persuade me the project's
running well.



Sat, 6 Oct 2001 07:48:43 +0800 (WST)
John Summerfield <pgtest@os2.ami.com.au>
Re: cvs problem
On Fri, 5 Oct 2001, Marc G. Fournier wrote:


> On Fri, 5 Oct 2001, John Summerfield wrote:
>
> > I don't think I was being rude. It's true I'm no diplomat. I've
> > criticised actions (and, I think, with considerable justice), but I've
> > not actually criticised people.
>
> How can your criticisms be 'with considerable justice' (justification?)

I think my comments to another go to address this. The short form
is that the particular problems I had required all of two minutes to fix
by telling me the solution.

When I get pointed to the same wrong documents I've allready read, then
I think I' well justified in concluding that there's something wrong
and saying so.

>
> > And my point is that something moved. Something that many people (I
> > don't know how many, but thousands wouldn't surprise me) depended on.
>
> I'd be surprised if most of what moved affected hundreds ...

What I can surmise of the scale of your operation suggests its likely.


> > I have over thirty years' experience in computing, many of them
> > supporting users. That experiece tells me that making a change that
> > inconveniences users is a mistake. If the change really must be made,
> > do it so as to reduce the inconvenience as far as possible.
>
> As you have only been here 2 weeks, what do you know about what did (or
> didn't) need to be done?  Or about the work that went into making the
> whole change as painless as possible?  CVS was the most painful, and there
> were forewarnings about it, to the extent that we made sure that those
> with changes to commit weren't affected before they changed ...


Forwarning didn't help those arriving at the wrong time. Getting on to the lists
didn't work as described, so don't use that as an excuse.


My major concern is not so much the changes that were made, but that the problems
that arose were not addressed properly.

>
> "End users", IMHO, it should have been totally irrelevant too ... remove
> and re-check out the tree ... but, then again, I believe it was PeterE
> that even posted a 'how to change your CVS to point to the new server'
> script, so that those users weren't inconvience as well ...

He might have, but not anywhere that I could find it.

>
> if you are going to play with CVS, then deal with problems that *will*
> arise as a result of it ... else, download the .tar.gz files like everyone
> else ...
>
> > From my other readinds I see that the PG team controls the entire disk
> > layout. Given that, I can see no reason that the CVS tree needed to be
> > changed in the way it was.
>
> well, for one, its easier to remember:
>
> 	/cvsroot
>
> then
>
> 	/home/projects/pgsql/cvsroot

ln -s /home/projects/pgsql/cvsroot /cvsroot


Nobody even took the time to tell me what it had changed to. I can live with the change if I have to,
but first it's essential to have current information, and nobody took (in over two weeks) the time
to ensure I had that information.


Now I don't know why individuals get involved in OSS projects or how they get their rewards,
but I'd guess that having happy users is part of it.

And users need support, and those who use the CVS repositiories you should especially welcome as they're
(or so I imagine) prospective new team members..

What I'm complaining about is neither helpful nor welcoming.


Now there have been exceptions - I've also had some very good responses to other problems.







Sat, 6 Oct 2001 08:20:11 +0800 (WST)
John Summerfield <pgtest@os2.ami.com.au>
Re: cvs problem
On Friday 05 October 2001 07:48 pm, John Summerfield wrote:
> On Fri, 5 Oct 2001, Lamar Owen wrote:
> I made it clear I was getting frustrated. Read in that context, I think it
> was pretty mild;-)

But it was done in an uninformed way.  Had you read the previous two-three 
weeks of the archives, your questions mostly would have been answered.  And I 
think that's the thing that irritated me -- at least try to understand what 
the culture of the project is before criticizing it.  I am reminded of Tom 
Lane's first post....(it's in the archives....)

> Especially considering the point I saw a project in disarray (and I don't
> think anyone's disputed that).

Temporary disarray only.  But this project is a truly open project, where no 
one person has final say.  People will occassionally get upset and disagree 
-- this is normal life in a true open source project.  People here tend to 
disagree in a much more mild way that with some other projects, though.

> I'm ingnorant. I don't see why CVSROOT would need to be changed. I thought
> Unix filesystems were flexible enough to allow CVS to see things as they
> really aren't, perhaps using symlinks.

Why introduce additional complexity into an already complex system?  The next 
time things need to be shuffled (in a few weeks, months, or years), having to 
remember to un-dangle a symlink might cause another issue.  The new CVSROOT 
is shorter and simpler, and it is useless to mung in an unnecessary symlink.  
PeterE had just posted how to get around it without a new checkout -- a 
cursory half-hour browse through the last month's archives would have found 
it.

> > Correction: Marc Fournier controls the entire disk layout, as it's his
> > server.  It was his decision to change the layout.

> Is Marc part of the team?

Reference the developers listing on developer.postgresql.org.

> Instead of telling me how to go on with my affairs, there ensured a
> discussion about the documentation being wrong, about the devlopers corner
> shouldn't really be there and so on.

Because your report was a symptom of a larger problem -- that of the 
automatically generated pages not generating properly.  Fix the cause, not 
the symptom.

> Now, I've always thought that the first thing to do when someone has a
> problem is to give them the solution to their problem if the solution is
> easily had.

The first thing that has to be done is to find the real problem.  You may not 
even know what the real problem is -- if CVS hadn't broken, something else 
would have pointed out that the docs we're being autogenerated any more.  And 
a temporary fix for a symptom is not nearly as useful as is a cure for the 
real problem.  Once the problem has been found and fixed, the symptom will go 
away.

> To be sure if the Postgresql itself is broken, that may take longer, but
> that wasn't the case. The procedures (from my point of view) or
> documentation (from yours) was wrong, and what I needed most was the
> knowledge of what actually works.

> And referring me to the incorrect documentation didn't serve to persuade me
> the project's running well.

If the documentation build procedure was broken (which it was), telling you 
the correct incantation would have only fixed your individual problem.  
Attempting to fix the doc build process, with your help in saying 'Yes, that 
fixed it' or 'no that didn't' helps the whole userbase, not just you.  

PostgreSQL's online documentation is derived from the very same SGML source 
documentation that ships with the tarball -- to prevent duplication of 
effort.  As the autogen system has been in place for awhile, when a change in 
the SGML source didn't propagate to the web pages, that problem had to be 
found before it could be fixed.  In the process a few feathers got ruffled, 
but things are ok as of now, AFAIK.

Again, it's been a kindof rocky two-three weeks --but this is momentary.  But 
you have to have context to see its momentary nature -- and only by reading 
the archives can you obtain proper context.

As to why things had to change, well, Marc is the person to answer that.  
But, really, he is under no obligation to answer that, as he's providing his 
servers and bandwidth to this project.  They're his, and he can run them as 
he sees fit.  If he wants to justify his actions, then that's ok.  If he 
doesn't want to justify those actions, well, I can't really have a problem 
with that either -- I'm not the one forking out the money for his bandwidth.  
I'm too busy being thankful that he is taking the time and pouring out the 
effort to keep things running.  And things typically have run very well over 
the last five-plus years that Marc has hosted the project.  After all,` he 
basically rescued the whole thing.  But that's context.....

And speaking of context, even in my extra-busy state of the last three 
months, I was able to follow what was going on, and prepared for it here.
-- 
Lamar Owen
WGCR Internet Radio
1 Peter 4:11

Mon, 8 Oct 2001 09:49:46 -0400
Lamar Owen <lamar.owen@wgcr.org>
Temprary issue gripes(was:Re: cvs problem)

On Mon, 8 Oct 2001, Lamar Owen wrote:


> On Friday 05 October 2001 07:48 pm, John Summerfield wrote:
> > On Fri, 5 Oct 2001, Lamar Owen wrote:
> > I made it clear I was getting frustrated. Read in that context, I think it
> > was pretty mild;-)
>
> But it was done in an uninformed way.  Had you read the previous two-three
> weeks of the archives, your questions mostly would have been answered.  And I
> think that's the thing that irritated me -- at least try to understand what
> the culture of the project is before criticizing it.  I am reminded of Tom
> Lane's first post....(it's in the archives....)


I've spend years helping people (for free, just like you people here), first with OS/2 and then with Linux, specifically Red Hat.

I understand and accept that many questions are asked over and over.

Where possible I have referred people to existing documentation, often
with a shortened explanation.

Often I illustrate answers with clippings from a terminal window.


If I can't test an answer, I give a clue that it's untested.
>
> > Especially considering the point I saw a project in disarray (and I don't
> > think anyone's disputed that).
>
> Temporary disarray only.  But this project is a truly open project, where no
> one person has final say.  People will occassionally get upset and disagree
> -- this is normal life in a true open source project.  People here tend to
> disagree in a much more mild way that with some other projects, though.
>
> > I'm ingnorant. I don't see why CVSROOT would need to be changed. I thought
> > Unix filesystems were flexible enough to allow CVS to see things as they
> > really aren't, perhaps using symlinks.
>
> Why introduce additional complexity into an already complex system?  The next

Someone said it had been the old way for five years. It caused me no
inconveniece - I simply copied and pasted the lengthy name from the web page.

I don't see for whom the long name would be a problem; certainly if
it has been that way for five years, it couldn't have been a serious
problem.




> time things need to be shuffled (in a few weeks, months, or years), having to
> remember to un-dangle a symlink might cause another issue.  The new CVSROOT
> is shorter and simpler, and it is useless to mung in an unnecessary symlink.
> PeterE had just posted how to get around it without a new checkout -- a
> cursory half-hour browse through the last month's archives would have found
> it.

The symlink could be used the other way - leave CVSROOT alone so it works
the way it 'always has,' create the symlink as a convenience for whoever
wants it.



>
> > > Correction: Marc Fournier controls the entire disk layout, as it's his
> > > server.  It was his decision to change the layout.
>
> > Is Marc part of the team?
>
> Reference the developers listing on developer.postgresql.org.

yes or no? I don't have web access at present. He contributes to discussions,
so I guess in at least some sense he is.

>
> > Instead of telling me how to go on with my affairs, there ensured a
> > discussion about the documentation being wrong, about the devlopers corner
> > shouldn't really be there and so on.
>
> Because your report was a symptom of a larger problem -- that of the
> automatically generated pages not generating properly.  Fix the cause, not
> the symptom.
>
> > Now, I've always thought that the first thing to do when someone has a
> > problem is to give them the solution to their problem if the solution is
> > easily had.
>
> The first thing that has to be done is to find the real problem.  You may not
> even know what the real problem is -- if CVS hadn't broken, something else
> would have pointed out that the docs we're being autogenerated any more.  And
> a temporary fix for a symptom is not nearly as useful as is a cure for the
> real problem.  Once the problem has been found and fixed, the symptom will go
> away.

No reason at all to make people wait for thich incantation. Someone had the
correct information. Probably a minute to find it and incorproate it
in a response.


>
> > To be sure if the Postgresql itself is broken, that may take longer, but
> > that wasn't the case. The procedures (from my point of view) or
> > documentation (from yours) was wrong, and what I needed most was the
> > knowledge of what actually works.
>
> > And referring me to the incorrect documentation didn't serve to persuade me
> > the project's running well.
>
> If the documentation build procedure was broken (which it was), telling you
> the correct incantation would have only fixed your individual problem.

Fix my problem so I can go on looking for more. Then fix the real problem.

I went to the CVS version because I had problems with the most recent
release. I try not to report fixed problems.

However, I do need reasonable support from the developers, and I was only
seeking a a modest amount of support.


> Attempting to fix the doc build process, with your help in saying 'Yes, that
> fixed it' or 'no that didn't' helps the whole userbase, not just you.

Anyone can verify that the page I mentioned contains correct (or incorrect)
information. Doesn't need a say-so from me.



>
> PostgreSQL's online documentation is derived from the very same SGML source
> documentation that ships with the tarball -- to prevent duplication of
> effort.  As the autogen system has been in place for awhile, when a change in
> the SGML source didn't propagate to the web pages, that problem had to be
> found before it could be fixed.  In the process a few feathers got ruffled,
> but things are ok as of now, AFAIK.
>
> Again, it's been a kindof rocky two-three weeks --but this is momentary.  But
> you have to have context to see its momentary nature -- and only by reading
> the archives can you obtain proper context.

I don't ordinarily have web access. Archives are inconvenient. And, in
my experience, somewhat hard to use. It can be hard to find a specific topic
- too many synomyms - and often they're too voluminous, and unless you have
a high-bandwidth service (I don't) slow.




Tue, 9 Oct 2001 09:37:30 +0800 (WST)
John Summerfield <pgtest@os2.ami.com.au>
Re: Temprary issue gripes(was:Re: cvs problem)
On Monday 08 October 2001 09:37 pm, John Summerfield wrote:
> I don't see for whom the long name would be a problem; certainly if
> it has been that way for five years, it couldn't have been a serious
> problem.

Ask Marc why he changed it.

> > > > Correction: Marc Fournier controls the entire disk layout, as it's
> > > > his server.  It was his decision to change the layout.

> > > Is Marc part of the team?

> > Reference the developers listing on developer.postgresql.org.

> yes or no? I don't have web access at present. He contributes to
> discussions, so I guess in at least some sense he is.

He is one of the six core developers; maintains the postgresql.org server 
(which he donates); maintains the network bandwidth which we all enjoy; 
coordinates releases; runs the mailing list, ftp, web, CVS, CVSup, and 
nesgroup services; is President of PostgreSQL, Inc, who provides first-rate 
commercial support for PostgreSQL; is chief cook and bottlewasher; and 
anything else I may have left out.  He is one of the first four who took the 
also-ran Postgres95 and turned it into the real database known as PostgreSQL.

So, yes, I guess you could say he's part of the team... :-)

> > > Instead of telling me how to go on with my affairs, there ensured a
> > > discussion about the documentation being wrong, about the devlopers
> > > corner shouldn't really be there and so on.

> > Because your report was a symptom of a larger problem -- that of the
> > automatically generated pages not generating properly.  Fix the cause,
> > not the symptom.

> No reason at all to make people wait for thich incantation. Someone had the
> correct information. Probably a minute to find it and incorproate it
> in a response.

Did  you or did you not post the question to pgsql-hackers?  This list isn't 
for just telling people how to solve problems -- that is what admin, general, 
ports, etc are for.  The hackers list is the developers list, where the 
developers talk through development problems.  So, directly answering your 
question wasn't the top priority -- fixing the larger problem was.

> However, I do need reasonable support from the developers, and I was only
> seeking a a modest amount of support.

If you're going to run CVS or even beta versions, you had better be ready to 
do alot of your own support. I'm not trying to be mean or arrogant, either -- 
if a change in CVSROOT and a lack of docs is too upsetting, wait on the final 
release, or a release candidate, where things are much more polished.  
Bleeding edge sometimes cuts -- and I've been there.

> I don't ordinarily have web access. Archives are inconvenient. And, in
> my experience, somewhat hard to use. It can be hard to find a specific
> topic - too many synomyms - and often they're too voluminous, and unless
> you have a high-bandwidth service (I don't) slow.

I can sympathize to an extent with that, but I again have to go back to what 
irked me -- you made an uninformed critical remark that had nothing to do 
with your question.  Don't make critical remarks about a process or project 
of which workings you are ignorant.  That isn't meant to be demeaning -- I 
try to follow that very same advice, as it was given to me long ago by none 
other than Jonathan Kamens.  And it takes more than just a couple of weeks 
reading the list to get familiar with the workingsof a project this size.

That's really all I have to say about that on-list.
-- 
Lamar Owen
WGCR Internet Radio
1 Peter 4:11

Wed, 10 Oct 2001 17:31:53 -0400
Lamar Owen <lamar.owen@wgcr.org>
Re: Temprary issue gripes(was:Re: cvs problem)