> -----Original Message-----
> From: The Hermit Hacker [mailto:scrappy@postgresql.org] 
> Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2003 6:10 PM
> To: Dann Corbit
> Cc: The Hermit Hacker; Jan Wieck; scott.marlowe; Bruce 
> Momjian; Tom Lane; Jason Earl; PostgreSQL-development
> Subject: RE: [HACKERS] Two weeks to feature freeze
> 
> 
> On Tue, 24 Jun 2003, Dann Corbit wrote:
> 
> > I did something about it.  I raised the issue.
> > Is it really so that whoever it is that raises a question 
> is also the 
> > one who must fix the issue raised? A strange model indeed.
> 
> Its worked for us ...
> 
> Wait, I know what should make you happy ... it won't get 
> anytihng done, but ...
> 
> Bruce, can you add "* Improve Testing" to the TODO list

It is surely a titanic mistake to bring up any issue on this list if you
do not plan to fix it yourself.
 
> > > Someone has to spearhead it
> > > ... you seem to be passionate about seeing it happen, but 
> don't care 
> > > enough to do anything about it ...
> >
> > Don't care and won't do are not the same thing.
> 
> Well, actually, they are ... if someone doesn't care, they 
> aren't going to do, are they?

You have had the time to do everything you ever cared about?

It is really true that I have made a titanic waste of time in an effort
to get someone else to do something about it or at least get them
interested in it.  I won't waste my time in that way again.  I deeply
rue the time I have wasted already.


Tue, 24 Jun 2003 18:25:26 -0700
"Dann Corbit" <DCorbit@connx.com>
Re: Two weeks to feature freeze

I think it was a useful discussion.  I find it interesting to compare
our clearly ad-hock testing methods to traditional commercial testing
strategies.  I think our results are very good, but it does look awful
"ad-hock" and it is easy to see how someone would question its
effectiveness.

Of course, the whole open source development model seems ad-hock too,
and on the surface seems inferior to a commercial software development
model, but there again, the proof is in the result.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dann Corbit wrote:
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: The Hermit Hacker [mailto:scrappy@postgresql.org] 
> > Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2003 6:10 PM
> > To: Dann Corbit
> > Cc: The Hermit Hacker; Jan Wieck; scott.marlowe; Bruce 
> > Momjian; Tom Lane; Jason Earl; PostgreSQL-development
> > Subject: RE: [HACKERS] Two weeks to feature freeze
> > 
> > 
> > On Tue, 24 Jun 2003, Dann Corbit wrote:
> > 
> > > I did something about it.  I raised the issue.
> > > Is it really so that whoever it is that raises a question 
> > is also the 
> > > one who must fix the issue raised? A strange model indeed.
> > 
> > Its worked for us ...
> > 
> > Wait, I know what should make you happy ... it won't get 
> > anytihng done, but ...
> > 
> > Bruce, can you add "* Improve Testing" to the TODO list
> 
> It is surely a titanic mistake to bring up any issue on this list if you
> do not plan to fix it yourself.
>  
> > > > Someone has to spearhead it
> > > > ... you seem to be passionate about seeing it happen, but 
> > don't care 
> > > > enough to do anything about it ...
> > >
> > > Don't care and won't do are not the same thing.
> > 
> > Well, actually, they are ... if someone doesn't care, they 
> > aren't going to do, are they?
> 
> You have had the time to do everything you ever cared about?
> 
> It is really true that I have made a titanic waste of time in an effort
> to get someone else to do something about it or at least get them
> interested in it.  I won't waste my time in that way again.  I deeply
> rue the time I have wasted already.
> 
> 

-- 
  Bruce Momjian                        |  http://candle.pha.pa.us
  pgman@candle.pha.pa.us               |  (610) 359-1001
  +  If your life is a hard drive,     |  13 Roberts Road
  +  Christ can be your backup.        |  Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073

Tue, 24 Jun 2003 21:28:50 -0400 (EDT)
Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>
Re: Two weeks to feature freeze
On Tue, 24 Jun 2003, Dann Corbit wrote:

> > > Don't care and won't do are not the same thing.
> >
> > Well, actually, they are ... if someone doesn't care, they
> > aren't going to do, are they?
>
> You have had the time to do everything you ever cared about?

No no, that isn't what he is arguing (or I'm miss reading) ... he said
that "not caring about something *and* not doing it aren't the same thing"
... which isnt' the same as caring but not having the time ... is it?

Tue, 24 Jun 2003 22:34:23 -0300 (ADT)
The Hermit Hacker <scrappy@postgresql.org>
Re: Two weeks to feature freeze
On Tue, 24 Jun 2003, Dann Corbit wrote:

> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: The Hermit Hacker [mailto:scrappy@postgresql.org] 
> > Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2003 6:10 PM
> > To: Dann Corbit
> > Cc: The Hermit Hacker; Jan Wieck; scott.marlowe; Bruce 
> > Momjian; Tom Lane; Jason Earl; PostgreSQL-development
> > Subject: RE: [HACKERS] Two weeks to feature freeze
> > 
> > 
> > On Tue, 24 Jun 2003, Dann Corbit wrote:
> > 
> > > I did something about it.  I raised the issue.
> > > Is it really so that whoever it is that raises a question 
> > is also the 
> > > one who must fix the issue raised? A strange model indeed.
> > 
> > Its worked for us ...
> > 
> > Wait, I know what should make you happy ... it won't get 
> > anytihng done, but ...
> > 
> > Bruce, can you add "* Improve Testing" to the TODO list
> 
> It is surely a titanic mistake to bring up any issue on this list if you
> do not plan to fix it yourself.

No, it's not.  But you have to realize that when you bring up a "problem" 
without a solution, you are, in effect, asking someone else to solve your 
problem.  I do that all the time.  I don't code postgresql (well, I've 
hacked around in it a bit for fun, but most of it is over my head.)

So, then I bring up something (like the screwy date mangling / parsing 
misfeature we've been discussing this last week) I KNOW I'm asking the 
programmers for a favor to fix it, and I know that if they all said, no, 
we don't have time to fix it, if you want it done you'd better get 
hacking, then I can either get hacking or wait until someone has time to 
fix it.

I.e. I have to be civil and present my case in a convincing enough manner 
to get someone else to do it.

The bigger the change, the more likely it is that it'll get thrown back at 
the person suggesting it.

A prime example is using a threaded model.  About every three months or so 
someone shows up waving their hands about how Postgresql just can't be 
fast without threads.  No code, no benchmarks, no proof, just a rough 
feeling they got from reading a magazine article.  Invariably, the issue 
is far more complex than just "make Postgresql threaded" and the person 
suggesting it can "justify" why someone else should spend months doing it, 
but they can't be bothered themselves.

In the Open Source universe, if you want a feature, you have to be willing 
to "pay for it."  Whether that's with code or a checkbook, either way, 
TANSTAAFL.

In the case of better testing, if you're willing to get out your checkbook 
and start pumping out cash to a few of the developers here on the list, 
I'd sure someone would jump right up and start writing your test suite.

Or, you can code it yourself.

Or, you can convince someone that the testing is necessary and they'll 
volunteer their time.

For me, more testing would gain me nothing.  I already test postgresql on 
a test box before throwing it into production.  I test it for load, 
response, correctness, etc... and if I miss something, it's usually a 
pretty small issue, and it gets fixed fast.

I'd much rather see time and effort go into the things they go into, like 
optimizing the query planner, in() with subselects, full text indexing, 
and many other things.

There is a finite pool of hacker skill poured into Postgresql, and pouring 
more of it into testing means less gets poured into development, and right 
now, I've got all the testing I need, as do most of the developers and 
users I know.

Open Source works because some scratches and itch.  right now, you're the 
only one with an itch for more testing.  If you don't scratch it, it 
likely won't get scratched any time soon.

who knows, in a year, maybe someone else will get the itch and scratch it.  
But your arguments have been unconvincing, since the reality of Postgresql 
is that it is the absolutely most reliable database I know of, and has one 
of the fastest turnaround times for bug fixes when they do pop up.

Does apache have a comprehensive test suite?  Not that I know of.  Neither 
does the Linux kernel or the BSD kernel.  But, they all get the job done 
better than their commercial counterparts with far less headache.

This discussion hasn't been a complete waste of time, but your arguments 
have bordered on insulting to those of us who currently DO the testing on 
our own machines.  You've dismissed our testing out of hand on several 
occasions as insufficient, when at least we ARE testing postgresql, even 
if it doesn't meat up to your higher standards.  

If you want to raise the bar, then YOU get to raise it.


Wed, 25 Jun 2003 01:13:24 -0600 (MDT)
"scott.marlowe" <scott.marlowe@ihs.com>
Re: Two weeks to feature freeze