Dear Eric,

Thanks for your input!  I'm still in favor of developing a Windows version of PostGreSQL.  But I don't think that intelligent people are going to want to use any version of Windows (especially since the news of DRMOS and TCPA included in Windows XP and soon to be implemented in all future releases of Windows 2000 Server) to host their own website via their DSL line.  Another few reasons for this choice are the constant crashes of ALL versions of Windows and the increasing lack of responsiveness to fix bugs or admit to "less than advertised" limitations.

Also, people who don't appreciate the far less than honest approach to Access users that MS has taken, are not about to spend thousands of dollars on MS SQL Server.  At least not at a time when all signs point to abandoning Windows in favor of Linux, as a "necessary" step, albeit painful.  "Necessary" because of the improved security that is possible, with sufficient Linux expertise and because of the lowered risk of being at only one company's mercy...as pointed out by the senator from Peru and many others since.

Allowing MS to continue a 90 + percent market share (by remaining blissfully ignorant) until TCPA is fully implemented in all supported versions of Windows is nothing short of total insanity.  I believe that most Americans are intelligent enough to realize this and avoid that scenario by making the switch to Linux.  I don't believe that we Americans are stupid enough to let a company like MS take away almost every freedom that now exists in the field of technological development!  If we are, then we will shortly lose our other freedoms as well...through ignorance and apathy.

I believe that we will see many mfgs of motherboards that don't include the "Fritz chip" that are designed for those who vote for Linux and make the switch to an unfamiliar OS...primarily due to their discovery of the TCPA/MS agenda.  Am I sure about this?  Yes!  Look at the intense interest shown by other countries in Linux application development for the GUI desktop.  Do you think they will abandon their investment?  I don't think so.  Especially not in Taiwan or China where flexible and compatible "hard Real Time" versions of Linux are a primary development focus...to be marketed here in the US!

(Examples: http://www.redsonic.com and China Soft...their website link can be found at the Redsonic website....hope you can read Chinese!)

Redsonic's toolset will beat WinCE in the near future...without any doubt.  The performance improvement and user friendliness of their tools far exceed any version of WinCE.

And Redsonic isn't the only "Real Time" competitor.  There are many, many others...and a steady flow of new ones.

If we as Americans don't make the switch to Linux instead of Windows, including end users at home, then I can think of one Biblical phrase that fits, "Don't cast your pearls before swine, lest they turn and rend you".  In other words, "send back your PC to the store"...we're too stupid and self absorbed to have the privilege of using them or to enjoy our current freedoms.  Switching to Linux is currently a "pain" to be sure...but it is less painful than what will surely follow if the MS plan works.  "A word to the wise is sufficient".  And it won't be long until it is much less painful to make the switch.

Sincerely,

Arthur Baldwin

I'm afraid that I don't hold as much faith as you that Linux will become the "defacto standard" toolset for all website servers. MS, despite its major shortcomings, is fairly slow and steady when it comes to improvements to its OS. That said, Access is crap because no one uses it for what it was built to be used for. And I would imagine that MS would rather spend their time/money on SQL Server development. I agree with you that pgsql needs a more powerful, GUI interface. The QBE interface in Access is nice. However, I don't agree that it is unimportant to have a Windows version. Point being, that Linux users are used to - and sadly often expect - poor interfaces with the programs they use. Windows users are far less forgiving. If, what you are talking about, is truly wide spread use for PC's and small-time web-servers then a Windows interface is damn near necessary.

 

Eric

 

-----Original Message-----
From: pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org [mailto:pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org] On Behalf Of Arthur@LinkLine.com
Sent: Tuesday, July 09, 2002 4:05 PM
To: PostGreSQL Hackers
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] pg_access

 

I'm pleased to see some renewed interest in pg_access.  It seems obvious to me that MS Access is not currently...and probably never will be able to handle data in a robust and reliable fashion.  MS Access' apparent success is due to the user interface quality and "ease of use" for "non-programmers".  The "Relationships View" window, for example, is one of the best and most useful features ever invented for any database toolset.

 

In reality PostGreSQL is in a "strong position" to fill the "reliability void" left by MS Access.  However, the general public doesn't know much about the short comings of Access, due to MS advertising and sales efforts.  It seems clear to me that the best way to "promote" the use of PostGreSQL is to offer more "ease of use" GUI interfaces for changing table structures, indexes, relationships, and upgrading older versions of files.  Although it would be nice to have a native Windows version of PostGreSQL, as well as a Linux version, I expect Linux to replace Windows on a large number of PCs in the near future.  I think that "having a Windows version" will not be a significant issue at that point.  However, GUI based "ease of use" features WILL be an extremely important issue and will increase in importance for the rest of the forseeable future.  Using a "browser" to implement the GUI toolset is a good start, but it probably won't support the same degree of user friendliness that is seen in the "Relationships View" window of MS Access, where a relationship can be instantly "drawn" with a mouse, and fields added to the Table with a simple "right click" on the Table header.

 

If we do a good job of providing GUI based tools, similar to MS Access, as well as conversion tools from Access to PostGreSQL for existing data, then PostGreSQL and Linux should quickly become the "defacto standard" toolset for all website servers.  It seems to me like PostGreSQL is already on this pathway, "like it or not", and that focussing on the GUI toolset is essential to maintaining a good relationship with those who are new to the Linux world.  Whether you realize it or not, there is a humongous tidal wave of MS Access users currently gathering enough database theory expertise to "realize" the MS "snow job" they've been given about its reliability.  They will be forced into finding another solution and chances are VERY good they won't opt for MS SQL Server or Oracle.  If we are ready to give a solution to them...great....sorry MS, but they seem to "like us better".  If we are not ready, then our future won't have anything to do with MS, only our own lack of vision.

 

At our current level of GUI tools, we can't expect any positive response even from fairly talented self taught computer programmers who have been interested in Linux since 1998 or later.  Soon, there will be many Windows IT Specialists who will be seriously investigating the Linux OS and the "best database tools" available for it.  Add to this list "end users" who are fed up with daily Windows crashes and are experimenting with hosting their own DSL based website servers....and well...there's your tidal wave!  Ready or not....the wave is directly behind us....time to "paddle" for all we're worth!

 

Sincerely,

 

Arthur Baldwin










Dear 
Eric,
Thanks for your 
input!  I'm still in favor of developing a Windows version of 
PostGreSQL.  But I don't think that intelligent people are going to want to 
use any version of Windows (especially since the news of DRMOS and TCPA included 
in Windows XP and soon to be implemented in all future releases of Windows 2000 
Server) to host their own website via their DSL line.  Another few 
reasons for this choice are the constant crashes of ALL versions of Windows and 
the increasing lack of responsiveness to fix bugs or admit to "less than 
advertised" limitations.
Also, people who don't 
appreciate the far less than honest approach to Access users that MS has taken, 
are not about to spend thousands of dollars on MS SQL Server.  At least not 
at a time when all signs point to abandoning Windows in favor of Linux, as a 
"necessary" step, albeit painful.  "Necessary" because of the improved 
security that is possible, with sufficient Linux expertise and because of 
the lowered risk of being at only one company's mercy...as pointed out by the 
senator from Peru and many others since.
Allowing MS to continue 
a 90 + percent market share (by remaining blissfully ignorant) until TCPA is 
fully implemented in all supported versions of Windows is nothing short of total 
insanity.  I believe that most Americans are intelligent enough to realize 
this and avoid that scenario by making the switch to Linux.  I don't 
believe that we Americans are stupid enough to let a company like MS take away 
almost every freedom that now exists in the field of technological 
development!  If we are, then we will shortly lose our other freedoms as 
well...through ignorance and apathy.
I believe that we will 
see many mfgs of motherboards that don't include the "Fritz chip" that are 
designed for those who vote for Linux and make the switch to an unfamiliar 
OS...primarily due to their discovery of the TCPA/MS agenda.  Am I sure 
about this?  Yes!  Look at the intense interest shown by other 
countries in Linux application development for the GUI desktop.  Do you 
think they will abandon their investment?  I don't think so.  
Especially not in Taiwan or China where flexible and compatible "hard Real Time" 
versions of Linux are a primary development focus...to be marketed here in the 
US!
(Examples: http://www.redsonic.com and China 
Soft...their website link can be found at the Redsonic website....hope you can 
read Chinese!)
Redsonic's 
toolset will beat WinCE in the near future...without any doubt.  The 
performance improvement and user friendliness of their tools far exceed any 
version of WinCE.
And Redsonic isn't the 
only "Real Time" competitor.  There are many, many others...and a steady 
flow of new ones.
If we as Americans 
don't make the switch to Linux instead of Windows, including end users at home, 
then I can think of one Biblical phrase that fits, "Don't cast your pearls 
before swine, lest they turn and rend you".  In other words, "send back 
your PC to the store"...we're too stupid and self absorbed to have the privilege 
of using them or to enjoy our current freedoms.  Switching to Linux is 
currently a "pain" to be sure...but it is less painful than what will surely 
follow if the MS plan works.  "A word to the wise is sufficient".  And 
it won't be long until it is much less painful to make the 
switch.
Sincerely,
Arthur 
Baldwin
Im afraid that I dont 
hold as much faith as you that Linux will become the defacto standard toolset 
for all website servers. MS, despite its major shortcomings, is fairly slow and 
steady when it comes to improvements to its OS. That said, Access is crap because no one uses it for what it was built 
to be used for. And I would imagine that MS would rather spend their time/money 
on SQL Server development. I agree with you that pgsql 
needs a more powerful, GUI interface. The QBE interface in Access is nice. 
However, I dont agree that it is unimportant to have a Windows version. Point 
being, that Linux users are used to  and sadly often expect  poor interfaces 
with the programs they use. Windows users are far less forgiving. If, what you 
are talking about, is truly wide spread use for PCs and small-time web-servers 
then a Windows interface is damn near necessary.
 
Eric
 
-----Original 
Message-----From: 
pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org [mailto:pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org] 
On Behalf Of 
Arthur@LinkLine.comSent: Tuesday, July 09, 
2002 4:05 
PMTo: PostGreSQL HackersSubject: Re: [HACKERS] 
pg_access
 

I'm pleased to see some renewed 
interest in pg_access.  It seems obvious to me that MS Access is not 
currently...and probably never will be able to handle data in a robust and 
reliable fashion.  MS Access' apparent success is due to the user interface 
quality and "ease of use" for "non-programmers".  The "Relationships View" 
window, for example, is one of the best and most useful features ever invented 
for any database toolset.

 

In reality PostGreSQL is in a 
"strong position" to fill the "reliability void" left by MS Access.  
However, the general public doesn't know much about the short comings 
of Access, due to MS advertising and sales efforts.  It seems clear to 
me that the best way to "promote" the use of PostGreSQL is to offer more "ease 
of use" GUI interfaces for changing table structures, indexes, relationships, 
and upgrading older versions of files.  Although it would be nice to have a 
native Windows version of PostGreSQL, as well as a Linux version, I expect Linux 
to replace Windows on a large number of PCs in the near future.  I think 
that "having a Windows version" will not be a significant issue at that 
point.  However, GUI based "ease of use" features WILL be an extremely 
important issue and will increase in importance for the rest of the forseeable 
future.  Using a "browser" to implement the GUI toolset is a good start, 
but it probably won't support the same degree of user friendliness that is seen 
in the "Relationships View" window of MS Access, where a relationship can be 
instantly "drawn" with a mouse, and fields added to the Table with a simple 
"right click" on the Table header.

 

If we do a good job of 
providing GUI based tools, similar to MS Access, as well as conversion 
tools from Access to PostGreSQL for existing data, then PostGreSQL and Linux 
should quickly become the "defacto standard" toolset for all website 
servers.  It seems to me like PostGreSQL is already on this pathway, "like 
it or not", and that focussing on the GUI toolset is essential to maintaining a 
good relationship with those who are new to the Linux world.  Whether you 
realize it or not, there is a humongous tidal wave of MS Access users currently 
gathering enough database theory expertise to "realize" the MS "snow job" 
they've been given about its reliability.  They will be forced into finding 
another solution and chances are VERY good they won't opt for MS SQL Server 
or Oracle.  If we are ready to give a solution to 
them...great....sorry MS, but they seem to "like us better".  If we 
are not ready, then our future won't have anything to do with MS, only our own 
lack of vision.

 

At our current level of GUI tools, 
we can't expect any positive response even from fairly talented self taught 
computer programmers who have been interested in Linux since 1998 or 
later.  Soon, there will be many Windows IT Specialists who will be 
seriously investigating the Linux OS and the "best database tools" available for 
it.  Add to this list "end users" who are fed up with daily Windows crashes 
and are experimenting with hosting their own DSL based website servers....and 
well...there's your tidal wave!  Ready or not....the wave is directly 
behind us....time to "paddle" for all we're 
worth!

 

Sincerely,

 

Arthur 
Baldwin
Tue, 9 Jul 2002 17:35:18 -0700
"Arthur@LinkLine.com" <arthur@linkline.com>
Re: pg_access
Yeah, sure. Whatever.
 
Eric
 
-----Original Message-----
From: pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org
[mailto:pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org] On Behalf Of
Arthur@LinkLine.com
Sent: Tuesday, July 09, 2002 7:35 PM
To: PostGreSQL Hackers
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] pg_access
 
Dear Eric,
Thanks for your input!  I'm still in favor of developing a Windows
version of PostGreSQL.  But I don't think that intelligent people are
going to want to use any version of Windows (especially since the news
of DRMOS and TCPA included in Windows XP and soon to be implemented in
all future releases of Windows 2000 Server) to host their own website
via their DSL line.  Another few reasons for this choice are the
constant crashes of ALL versions of Windows and the increasing lack of
responsiveness to fix bugs or admit to "less than advertised"
limitations.
Also, people who don't appreciate the far less than honest approach to
Access users that MS has taken, are not about to spend thousands of
dollars on MS SQL Server.  At least not at a time when all signs point
to abandoning Windows in favor of Linux, as a "necessary" step, albeit
painful.  "Necessary" because of the improved security that is possible,
with sufficient Linux expertise and because of the lowered risk of being
at only one company's mercy...as pointed out by the senator from Peru
and many others since.
Allowing MS to continue a 90 + percent market share (by remaining
blissfully ignorant) until TCPA is fully implemented in all supported
versions of Windows is nothing short of total insanity.  I believe that
most Americans are intelligent enough to realize this and avoid that
scenario by making the switch to Linux.  I don't believe that we
Americans are stupid enough to let a company like MS take away almost
every freedom that now exists in the field of technological development!
If we are, then we will shortly lose our other freedoms as
well...through ignorance and apathy.
I believe that we will see many mfgs of motherboards that don't include
the "Fritz chip" that are designed for those who vote for Linux and make
the switch to an unfamiliar OS...primarily due to their discovery of the
TCPA/MS agenda.  Am I sure about this?  Yes!  Look at the intense
interest shown by other countries in Linux application development for
the GUI desktop.  Do you think they will abandon their investment?  I
don't think so.  Especially not in Taiwan or China where flexible and
compatible "hard Real Time" versions of Linux are a primary development
focus...to be marketed here in the US!
(Examples: http://www.redsonic.com and China Soft...their website link
can be found at the Redsonic website....hope you can read Chinese!)
Redsonic's toolset will beat WinCE in the near future...without any
doubt.  The performance improvement and user friendliness of their tools
far exceed any version of WinCE.
And Redsonic isn't the only "Real Time" competitor.  There are many,
many others...and a steady flow of new ones.
If we as Americans don't make the switch to Linux instead of Windows,
including end users at home, then I can think of one Biblical phrase
that fits, "Don't cast your pearls before swine, lest they turn and rend
you".  In other words, "send back your PC to the store"...we're too
stupid and self absorbed to have the privilege of using them or to enjoy
our current freedoms.  Switching to Linux is currently a "pain" to be
sure...but it is less painful than what will surely follow if the MS
plan works.  "A word to the wise is sufficient".  And it won't be long
until it is much less painful to make the switch.
Sincerely,
Arthur Baldwin
I'm afraid that I don't hold as much faith as you that Linux will become
the "defacto standard" toolset for all website servers. MS, despite its
major shortcomings, is fairly slow and steady when it comes to
improvements to its OS. That said, Access is crap because no one uses it
for what it was built to be used for. And I would imagine that MS would
rather spend their time/money on SQL Server development. I agree with
you that pgsql needs a more powerful, GUI interface. The QBE interface
in Access is nice. However, I don't agree that it is unimportant to have
a Windows version. Point being, that Linux users are used to - and sadly
often expect - poor interfaces with the programs they use. Windows users
are far less forgiving. If, what you are talking about, is truly wide
spread use for PC's and small-time web-servers then a Windows interface
is damn near necessary.
 
Eric
 
-----Original Message-----
From: pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org
[mailto:pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org] On Behalf Of
Arthur@LinkLine.com
Sent: Tuesday, July 09, 2002 4:05 PM
To: PostGreSQL Hackers
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] pg_access
 
I'm pleased to see some renewed interest in pg_access.  It seems obvious
to me that MS Access is not currently...and probably never will be able
to handle data in a robust and reliable fashion.  MS Access' apparent
success is due to the user interface quality and "ease of use" for
"non-programmers".  The "Relationships View" window, for example, is one
of the best and most useful features ever invented for any database
toolset.
 
In reality PostGreSQL is in a "strong position" to fill the "reliability
void" left by MS Access.  However, the general public doesn't know much
about the short comings of Access, due to MS advertising and sales
efforts.  It seems clear to me that the best way to "promote" the use of
PostGreSQL is to offer more "ease of use" GUI interfaces for changing
table structures, indexes, relationships, and upgrading older versions
of files.  Although it would be nice to have a native Windows version of
PostGreSQL, as well as a Linux version, I expect Linux to replace
Windows on a large number of PCs in the near future.  I think that
"having a Windows version" will not be a significant issue at that
point.  However, GUI based "ease of use" features WILL be an extremely
important issue and will increase in importance for the rest of the
forseeable future.  Using a "browser" to implement the GUI toolset is a
good start, but it probably won't support the same degree of user
friendliness that is seen in the "Relationships View" window of MS
Access, where a relationship can be instantly "drawn" with a mouse, and
fields added to the Table with a simple "right click" on the Table
header.
 
If we do a good job of providing GUI based tools, similar to MS Access,
as well as conversion tools from Access to PostGreSQL for existing data,
then PostGreSQL and Linux should quickly become the "defacto standard"
toolset for all website servers.  It seems to me like PostGreSQL is
already on this pathway, "like it or not", and that focussing on the GUI
toolset is essential to maintaining a good relationship with those who
are new to the Linux world.  Whether you realize it or not, there is a
humongous tidal wave of MS Access users currently gathering enough
database theory expertise to "realize" the MS "snow job" they've been
given about its reliability.  They will be forced into finding another
solution and chances are VERY good they won't opt for MS SQL Server or
Oracle.  If we are ready to give a solution to them...great....sorry MS,
but they seem to "like us better".  If we are not ready, then our future
won't have anything to do with MS, only our own lack of vision.
 
At our current level of GUI tools, we can't expect any positive response
even from fairly talented self taught computer programmers who have been
interested in Linux since 1998 or later.  Soon, there will be many
Windows IT Specialists who will be seriously investigating the Linux OS
and the "best database tools" available for it.  Add to this list "end
users" who are fed up with daily Windows crashes and are experimenting
with hosting their own DSL based website servers....and well...there's
your tidal wave!  Ready or not....the wave is directly behind us....time
to "paddle" for all we're worth!
 
Sincerely,
 
Arthur Baldwin














Yeah, sure. Whatever.
 
Eric
 
-----Original Message-----
From:
pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org [mailto:pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org] On Behalf Of Arthur@LinkLine.com
Sent: Tuesday, July 09, 2002 7:35
PM
To: PostGreSQL Hackers
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] pg_access
 


Dear Eric,
Thanks for your input!  I'm still in
favor of developing a Windows version of PostGreSQL.  But I don't think
that intelligent people are going to want to use any version of Windows
(especially since the news of DRMOS and TCPA included in Windows XP and soon to
be implemented in all future releases of Windows 2000 Server) to host their
own website via their DSL line.  Another few reasons for this choice
are the constant crashes of ALL versions of Windows and the increasing lack of
responsiveness to fix bugs or admit to "less than advertised"
limitations.
Also, people who don't appreciate the far
less than honest approach to Access users that MS has taken, are not about to
spend thousands of dollars on MS SQL Server.  At least not at a time when
all signs point to abandoning Windows in favor of Linux, as a
"necessary" step, albeit painful.  "Necessary" because
of the improved security that is possible, with sufficient Linux expertise
and because of the lowered risk of being at only one company's mercy...as
pointed out by the senator from Peru and many others since.
Allowing MS to continue a 90 + percent
market share (by remaining blissfully ignorant) until TCPA is fully implemented
in all supported versions of Windows is nothing short of total insanity. 
I believe that most Americans are intelligent enough to realize this and avoid
that scenario by making the switch to Linux.  I don't believe that we
Americans are stupid enough to let a company like MS take away almost every
freedom that now exists in the field of technological development!  If we
are, then we will shortly lose our other freedoms as well...through ignorance
and apathy.
I believe that we will see many mfgs of
motherboards that don't include the "Fritz chip" that are designed for
those who vote for Linux and make the switch to an unfamiliar OS...primarily
due to their discovery of the TCPA/MS agenda.  Am I sure about this? 
Yes!  Look at the intense interest shown by other countries in Linux
application development for the GUI desktop.  Do you think they will
abandon their investment?  I don't think so.  Especially not in
Taiwan or China where flexible and compatible "hard Real Time"
versions of Linux are a primary development focus...to be marketed here in the
US!
(Examples: http://www.redsonic.com and China
Soft...their website link can be found at the Redsonic website....hope you can
read Chinese!)
Redsonic's toolset will beat WinCE in
the near future...without any doubt.  The performance improvement and user
friendliness of their tools far exceed any version of WinCE.
And Redsonic isn't the only "Real
Time" competitor.  There are many, many others...and a steady flow of
new ones.
If we as Americans don't make the switch
to Linux instead of Windows, including end users at home, then I can think of
one Biblical phrase that fits, "Don't cast your pearls before swine, lest
they turn and rend you".  In other words, "send back your PC to
the store"...we're too stupid and self absorbed to have the privilege of
using them or to enjoy our current freedoms.  Switching to Linux is
currently a "pain" to be sure...but it is less painful than what will
surely follow if the MS plan works.  "A word to the wise is sufficient". 
And it won't be long until it is much less painful to make the switch.
Sincerely,
Arthur Baldwin
I’m afraid that I don’t hold
as much faith as you that Linux will become the “defacto standard”
toolset for all website servers. MS, despite its major shortcomings, is fairly
slow and steady when it comes to improvements to its OS. That said, Access is crap because no one uses it for what it was
built to be used for. And I would imagine that MS would rather spend their
time/money on SQL Server development. I agree with you that pgsql
needs a more powerful, GUI interface. The QBE interface in Access is nice.
However, I don’t agree that it is unimportant to have a Windows version.
Point being, that Linux users are used to – and sadly often expect
– poor interfaces with the programs they use. Windows users are far less
forgiving. If, what you are talking about, is truly wide spread use for
PC’s and small-time web-servers then a Windows interface is damn near
necessary.
 
Eric
 
-----Original Message-----
From:
pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org [mailto:pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org] On Behalf Of Arthur@LinkLine.com
Sent: Tuesday,
July 09, 2002 4:05 PM
To: PostGreSQL Hackers
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] pg_access
 

I'm pleased to see some renewed interest in pg_access. 
It seems obvious to me that MS Access is not currently...and probably never
will be able to handle data in a robust and reliable fashion.  MS Access'
apparent success is due to the user interface quality and "ease of
use" for "non-programmers".  The "Relationships
View" window, for example, is one of the best and most useful features
ever invented for any database toolset.


 


In reality PostGreSQL is in a "strong position" to
fill the "reliability void" left by MS Access.  However,
the general public doesn't know much about the short comings of Access,
due to MS advertising and sales efforts.  It seems clear to me that the
best way to "promote" the use of PostGreSQL is to offer more
"ease of use" GUI interfaces for changing table structures, indexes,
relationships, and upgrading older versions of files.  Although it would
be nice to have a native Windows version of PostGreSQL, as well as a Linux
version, I expect Linux to replace Windows on a large number of PCs in the near
future.  I think that "having a Windows version" will not be a
significant issue at that point.  However, GUI based "ease of
use" features WILL be an extremely important issue and will increase in
importance for the rest of the forseeable future.  Using a "browser"
to implement the GUI toolset is a good start, but it probably won't support the
same degree of user friendliness that is seen in the "Relationships
View" window of MS Access, where a relationship can be instantly
"drawn" with a mouse, and fields added to the Table with a simple
"right click" on the Table header.


 


If we do a good job of providing GUI based tools,
similar to MS Access, as well as conversion tools from Access to PostGreSQL for
existing data, then PostGreSQL and Linux should quickly become the
"defacto standard" toolset for all website servers.  It seems to
me like PostGreSQL is already on this pathway, "like it or not", and
that focussing on the GUI toolset is essential to maintaining a good
relationship with those who are new to the Linux world.  Whether you realize
it or not, there is a humongous tidal wave of MS Access users currently
gathering enough database theory expertise to "realize" the MS
"snow job" they've been given about its reliability.  They will
be forced into finding another solution and chances are VERY good they won't
opt for MS SQL Server or Oracle.  If we are ready to give a
solution to them...great....sorry MS, but they seem to "like us
better".  If we are not ready, then our future won't have anything
to do with MS, only our own lack of vision.


 


At our current level of GUI tools, we can't expect any
positive response even from fairly talented self taught computer programmers
who have been interested in Linux since 1998 or later.  Soon, there will
be many Windows IT Specialists who will be seriously investigating the Linux OS
and the "best database tools" available for it.  Add to this
list "end users" who are fed up with daily Windows crashes and are
experimenting with hosting their own DSL based website servers....and
well...there's your tidal wave!  Ready or not....the wave is directly
behind us....time to "paddle" for all we're worth!


 


Sincerely,


 


Arthur Baldwin
Tue, 9 Jul 2002 19:37:19 -0500
"Eric Redmond" <redmonde@purdue.edu>
Re: pg_access
Just A note on Linux.
I consider Linux on the same level as Windows. I have been able to crash it (kernel 2.4.18) just as well and the lib C API is nowhere near complete or fault tolerant to any commercial OS. For the moment nothing beats SCO Openserver/Unixware stability on PC. These are OS worth paying for. 

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Eric Redmond 
  To: 'PostGreSQL Hackers' 
  Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2002 10:37 AM
  Subject: Re: [HACKERS] pg_access


  Yeah, sure. Whatever.

   

  Eric

   

  -----Original Message-----
  From: pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org [mailto:pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org] On Behalf Of Arthur@LinkLine.com
  Sent: Tuesday, July 09, 2002 7:35 PM
  To: PostGreSQL Hackers
  Subject: Re: [HACKERS] pg_access

   

  Dear Eric,

  Thanks for your input!  I'm still in favor of developing a Windows version of PostGreSQL.  But I don't think that intelligent people are going to want to use any version of Windows (especially since the news of DRMOS and TCPA included in Windows XP and soon to be implemented in all future releases of Windows 2000 Server) to host their own website via their DSL line.  Another few reasons for this choice are the constant crashes of ALL versions of Windows and the increasing lack of responsiveness to fix bugs or admit to "less than advertised" limitations.

  Also, people who don't appreciate the far less than honest approach to Access users that MS has taken, are not about to spend thousands of dollars on MS SQL Server.  At least not at a time when all signs point to abandoning Windows in favor of Linux, as a "necessary" step, albeit painful.  "Necessary" because of the improved security that is possible, with sufficient Linux expertise and because of the lowered risk of being at only one company's mercy...as pointed out by the senator from Peru and many others since.

  Allowing MS to continue a 90 + percent market share (by remaining blissfully ignorant) until TCPA is fully implemented in all supported versions of Windows is nothing short of total insanity.  I believe that most Americans are intelligent enough to realize this and avoid that scenario by making the switch to Linux.  I don't believe that we Americans are stupid enough to let a company like MS take away almost every freedom that now exists in the field of technological development!  If we are, then we will shortly lose our other freedoms as well...through ignorance and apathy.

  I believe that we will see many mfgs of motherboards that don't include the "Fritz chip" that are designed for those who vote for Linux and make the switch to an unfamiliar OS...primarily due to their discovery of the TCPA/MS agenda.  Am I sure about this?  Yes!  Look at the intense interest shown by other countries in Linux application development for the GUI desktop.  Do you think they will abandon their investment?  I don't think so.  Especially not in Taiwan or China where flexible and compatible "hard Real Time" versions of Linux are a primary development focus...to be marketed here in the US!

  (Examples: http://www.redsonic.com and China Soft...their website link can be found at the Redsonic website....hope you can read Chinese!)

  Redsonic's toolset will beat WinCE in the near future...without any doubt.  The performance improvement and user friendliness of their tools far exceed any version of WinCE.

  And Redsonic isn't the only "Real Time" competitor.  There are many, many others...and a steady flow of new ones.

  If we as Americans don't make the switch to Linux instead of Windows, including end users at home, then I can think of one Biblical phrase that fits, "Don't cast your pearls before swine, lest they turn and rend you".  In other words, "send back your PC to the store"...we're too stupid and self absorbed to have the privilege of using them or to enjoy our current freedoms.  Switching to Linux is currently a "pain" to be sure...but it is less painful than what will surely follow if the MS plan works.  "A word to the wise is sufficient".  And it won't be long until it is much less painful to make the switch.

  Sincerely,

  Arthur Baldwin

  I'm afraid that I don't hold as much faith as you that Linux will become the "defacto standard" toolset for all website servers. MS, despite its major shortcomings, is fairly slow and steady when it comes to improvements to its OS. That said, Access is crap because no one uses it for what it was built to be used for. And I would imagine that MS would rather spend their time/money on SQL Server development. I agree with you that pgsql needs a more powerful, GUI interface. The QBE interface in Access is nice. However, I don't agree that it is unimportant to have a Windows version. Point being, that Linux users are used to - and sadly often expect - poor interfaces with the programs they use. Windows users are far less forgiving. If, what you are talking about, is truly wide spread use for PC's and small-time web-servers then a Windows interface is damn near necessary.

   

  Eric

   

  -----Original Message-----
  From: pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org [mailto:pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org] On Behalf Of Arthur@LinkLine.com
  Sent: Tuesday, July 09, 2002 4:05 PM
  To: PostGreSQL Hackers
  Subject: Re: [HACKERS] pg_access

   

  I'm pleased to see some renewed interest in pg_access.  It seems obvious to me that MS Access is not currently...and probably never will be able to handle data in a robust and reliable fashion.  MS Access' apparent success is due to the user interface quality and "ease of use" for "non-programmers".  The "Relationships View" window, for example, is one of the best and most useful features ever invented for any database toolset.

   

  In reality PostGreSQL is in a "strong position" to fill the "reliability void" left by MS Access.  However, the general public doesn't know much about the short comings of Access, due to MS advertising and sales efforts.  It seems clear to me that the best way to "promote" the use of PostGreSQL is to offer more "ease of use" GUI interfaces for changing table structures, indexes, relationships, and upgrading older versions of files.  Although it would be nice to have a native Windows version of PostGreSQL, as well as a Linux version, I expect Linux to replace Windows on a large number of PCs in the near future.  I think that "having a Windows version" will not be a significant issue at that point.  However, GUI based "ease of use" features WILL be an extremely important issue and will increase in importance for the rest of the forseeable future.  Using a "browser" to implement the GUI toolset is a good start, but it probably won't support the same degree of user friendliness that is seen in the "Relationships View" window of MS Access, where a relationship can be instantly "drawn" with a mouse, and fields added to the Table with a simple "right click" on the Table header.

   

  If we do a good job of providing GUI based tools, similar to MS Access, as well as conversion tools from Access to PostGreSQL for existing data, then PostGreSQL and Linux should quickly become the "defacto standard" toolset for all website servers.  It seems to me like PostGreSQL is already on this pathway, "like it or not", and that focussing on the GUI toolset is essential to maintaining a good relationship with those who are new to the Linux world.  Whether you realize it or not, there is a humongous tidal wave of MS Access users currently gathering enough database theory expertise to "realize" the MS "snow job" they've been given about its reliability.  They will be forced into finding another solution and chances are VERY good they won't opt for MS SQL Server or Oracle.  If we are ready to give a solution to them...great....sorry MS, but they seem to "like us better".  If we are not ready, then our future won't have anything to do with MS, only our own lack of vision.

   

  At our current level of GUI tools, we can't expect any positive response even from fairly talented self taught computer programmers who have been interested in Linux since 1998 or later.  Soon, there will be many Windows IT Specialists who will be seriously investigating the Linux OS and the "best database tools" available for it.  Add to this list "end users" who are fed up with daily Windows crashes and are experimenting with hosting their own DSL based website servers....and well...there's your tidal wave!  Ready or not....the wave is directly behind us....time to "paddle" for all we're worth!

   

  Sincerely,

   

  Arthur Baldwin










Just A note on Linux.
I consider Linux on the same level as Windows. I 
have been able to crash it (kernel 2.4.18) just as well and the lib C API is 
nowhere near complete or fault tolerant to any commercial OS. For the moment 
nothing beats SCO Openserver/Unixware stability on PC. These are OS worth paying 
for. 
 

----- Original Message ----- 
From:
Eric 
  Redmond 
To: 'PostGreSQL Hackers' 
Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2002 10:37 
  AM
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] pg_access


Yeah, 
  sure. Whatever.
 
Eric
 
-----Original 
  Message-----From: pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org 
  [mailto:pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org] On Behalf Of Arthur@LinkLine.comSent: Tuesday, July 09, 2002 7:35 
  PMTo: PostGreSQL 
  HackersSubject: Re: 
  [HACKERS] pg_access
 


Dear 
  Eric,
Thanks for your 
  input!  I'm still in favor of developing a Windows version of 
  PostGreSQL.  But I don't think that intelligent people are going to want 
  to use any version of Windows (especially since the news of DRMOS and TCPA 
  included in Windows XP and soon to be implemented in all future releases of 
  Windows 2000 Server) to host their own website via their DSL line.  
  Another few reasons for this choice are the constant crashes of ALL versions 
  of Windows and the increasing lack of responsiveness to fix bugs or admit to 
  "less than advertised" limitations.
Also, people who 
  don't appreciate the far less than honest approach to Access users that MS has 
  taken, are not about to spend thousands of dollars on MS SQL Server.  At 
  least not at a time when all signs point to abandoning Windows in favor of 
  Linux, as a "necessary" step, albeit painful.  "Necessary" because of the 
  improved security that is possible, with sufficient Linux expertise and 
  because of the lowered risk of being at only one company's mercy...as pointed 
  out by the senator from Peru and many others 
  since.
Allowing MS to 
  continue a 90 + percent market share (by remaining blissfully ignorant) until 
  TCPA is fully implemented in all supported versions of Windows is nothing 
  short of total insanity.  I believe that most Americans are intelligent 
  enough to realize this and avoid that scenario by making the switch to 
  Linux.  I don't believe that we Americans are stupid enough to let a 
  company like MS take away almost every freedom that now exists in the field of 
  technological development!  If we are, then we will shortly lose our 
  other freedoms as well...through ignorance and 
  apathy.
I believe that we 
  will see many mfgs of motherboards that don't include the "Fritz chip" that 
  are designed for those who vote for Linux and make the switch to an unfamiliar 
  OS...primarily due to their discovery of the TCPA/MS agenda.  Am I sure 
  about this?  Yes!  Look at the intense interest shown by other 
  countries in Linux application development for the GUI desktop.  Do you 
  think they will abandon their investment?  I don't think so.  
  Especially not in Taiwan or China where flexible and compatible "hard Real 
  Time" versions of Linux are a primary development focus...to be marketed here 
  in the US!
(Examples: http://www.redsonic.com and China 
  Soft...their website link can be found at the Redsonic website....hope you can 
  read Chinese!)
Redsonic's 
  toolset will beat WinCE in the near future...without any doubt.  The 
  performance improvement and user friendliness of their tools far exceed any 
  version of WinCE.
And Redsonic isn't 
  the only "Real Time" competitor.  There are many, many others...and a 
  steady flow of new ones.
If we as Americans 
  don't make the switch to Linux instead of Windows, including end users at 
  home, then I can think of one Biblical phrase that fits, "Don't cast your 
  pearls before swine, lest they turn and rend you".  In other words, "send 
  back your PC to the store"...we're too stupid and self absorbed to have the 
  privilege of using them or to enjoy our current freedoms.  Switching to 
  Linux is currently a "pain" to be sure...but it is less painful than what will 
  surely follow if the MS plan works.  "A word to the wise is 
  sufficient".  And it won't be long until it is much less painful to make 
  the switch.
Sincerely,
Arthur 
  Baldwin
I’m afraid that I 
  don’t hold as much faith as you that Linux will become the “defacto standard” 
  toolset for all website servers. MS, despite its major shortcomings, is fairly 
  slow and steady when it comes to improvements to its OS. That said, Access is crap because no one uses it for what it was 
  built to be used for. And I would imagine that MS would rather spend their 
  time/money on SQL Server development. I agree with you that pgsql needs a more powerful, GUI interface. The QBE 
  interface in Access is nice. However, I don’t agree that it is unimportant to 
  have a Windows version. Point being, that Linux users are used to – and sadly 
  often expect – poor interfaces with the programs they use. Windows users are 
  far less forgiving. If, what you are talking about, is truly wide spread use 
  for PC’s and small-time web-servers then a Windows interface is damn near 
  necessary.
 
Eric
 
-----Original 
  Message-----From: 
  pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org [mailto:pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org] 
  On Behalf Of 
  Arthur@LinkLine.comSent: Tuesday, July 09, 2002 4:05 PMTo: PostGreSQL HackersSubject: Re: [HACKERS] 
  pg_access
 

I'm 
  pleased to see some renewed interest in pg_access.  It seems obvious to 
  me that MS Access is not currently...and probably never will be able to handle 
  data in a robust and reliable fashion.  MS Access' apparent success is 
  due to the user interface quality and "ease of use" for 
  "non-programmers".  The "Relationships View" window, for example, is one 
  of the best and most useful features ever invented for any database 
  toolset.

 

In reality 
  PostGreSQL is in a "strong position" to fill the "reliability void" left 
  by MS Access.  However, the general public doesn't know much about 
  the short comings of Access, due to MS advertising and sales 
  efforts.  It seems clear to me that the best way to "promote" the use of 
  PostGreSQL is to offer more "ease of use" GUI interfaces for changing table 
  structures, indexes, relationships, and upgrading older versions of 
  files.  Although it would be nice to have a native Windows version of 
  PostGreSQL, as well as a Linux version, I expect Linux to replace Windows on a 
  large number of PCs in the near future.  I think that "having a Windows 
  version" will not be a significant issue at that point.  However, GUI 
  based "ease of use" features WILL be an extremely important issue and will 
  increase in importance for the rest of the forseeable future.  Using a 
  "browser" to implement the GUI toolset is a good start, but it probably won't 
  support the same degree of user friendliness that is seen in the 
  "Relationships View" window of MS Access, where a relationship can be 
  instantly "drawn" with a mouse, and fields added to the Table with a simple 
  "right click" on the Table header.

 

If we do a 
  good job of providing GUI based tools, similar to MS Access, as well as 
  conversion tools from Access to PostGreSQL for existing data, then PostGreSQL 
  and Linux should quickly become the "defacto standard" toolset for all website 
  servers.  It seems to me like PostGreSQL is already on this pathway, 
  "like it or not", and that focussing on the GUI toolset is essential to 
  maintaining a good relationship with those who are new to the Linux 
  world.  Whether you realize it or not, there is a humongous tidal wave of 
  MS Access users currently gathering enough database theory expertise to 
  "realize" the MS "snow job" they've been given about its reliability.  
  They will be forced into finding another solution and chances are VERY good 
  they won't opt for MS SQL Server or Oracle.  If we are ready to 
  give a solution to them...great....sorry MS, but they seem to "like 
  us better".  If we are not ready, then our future won't have 
  anything to do with MS, only our own lack of 
  vision.

 

At our 
  current level of GUI tools, we can't expect any positive response even from 
  fairly talented self taught computer programmers who have been interested in 
  Linux since 1998 or later.  Soon, there will be many Windows IT 
  Specialists who will be seriously investigating the Linux OS and the "best 
  database tools" available for it.  Add to this list "end users" who are 
  fed up with daily Windows crashes and are experimenting with hosting their own 
  DSL based website servers....and well...there's your tidal wave!  Ready 
  or not....the wave is directly behind us....time to "paddle" for all we're 
  worth!

 

Sincerely,

 

Arthur 
  Baldwin
Wed, 10 Jul 2002 11:54:52 +1000
"Nicolas Bazin" <nbazin@ingenico.com.au>
Re: pg_access
Hehehe - try FreeBSD for stability over Linux as well :)

Chris
  -----Original Message-----
  From: pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org
[mailto:pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org]On Behalf Of Nicolas Bazin
  Sent: Wednesday, 10 July 2002 9:55 AM
  To: Eric Redmond; 'PostGreSQL Hackers'
  Subject: Re: [HACKERS] pg_access


  Just A note on Linux.
  I consider Linux on the same level as Windows. I have been able to crash
it (kernel 2.4.18) just as well and the lib C API is nowhere near complete
or fault tolerant to any commercial OS. For the moment nothing beats SCO
Openserver/Unixware stability on PC. These are OS worth paying for.










Hehehe 
- try FreeBSD for stability over Linux as well :)
 
Chris

-----Original Message-----From: 
  pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org 
  [mailto:pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org]On Behalf Of Nicolas 
  BazinSent: Wednesday, 10 July 2002 9:55 AMTo: Eric 
  Redmond; 'PostGreSQL Hackers'Subject: Re: [HACKERS] 
  pg_access
Just A note on Linux.
I consider Linux on the same level as Windows. I 
  have been able to crash it (kernel 2.4.18) just as well and the lib C API is 
  nowhere near complete or fault tolerant to any commercial OS. For the moment 
  nothing beats SCO Openserver/Unixware stability on PC. These are OS worth 
  paying for.
Wed, 10 Jul 2002 10:03:20 +0800
"Christopher Kings-Lynne" <chriskl@familyhealth.com.au>
Re: pg_access