  Date: Monday, October 16, 2000 @ 23:29:31
Author: momjian

Update of /home/projects/pgsql/cvsroot/pgsql/doc
     from hub.org:/home/projects/pgsql/tmp/cvs-serv10656/pgsql/doc

Added Files:
	FAQ_MSWIN 

Removed Files:
	INSTALL_MSWIN 

-----------------------------  Log Message  -----------------------------

FAQ_MSWIN is better than INSTALL_MSWIN


Mon, 16 Oct 2000 23:29:31 -0400 (EDT)
Bruce Momjian - CVS <momjian@postgresql.org>
pgsql/doc (FAQ_MSWIN INSTALL_MSWIN)
Bruce Momjian - CVS writes:

> FAQ_MSWIN is better than INSTALL_MSWIN

No it's not...  The file in question doesn't contain any questions or
answers, it contains installation instructions for Windows.  Oh, and yes,
Microsoft does own the Windows name.

-- 
Peter Eisentraut      peter_e@gmx.net       http://yi.org/peter-e/


Tue, 17 Oct 2000 17:10:42 +0200 (CEST)
Peter Eisentraut <peter_e@gmx.net>
Re: pgsql/doc (FAQ_MSWIN INSTALL_MSWIN)
> Bruce Momjian - CVS writes:
> 
> > FAQ_MSWIN is better than INSTALL_MSWIN
> 
> No it's not...  The file in question doesn't contain any questions or
> answers, it contains installation instructions for Windows.  Oh, and yes,
> Microsoft does own the Windows name.

I don't like to make the MS stuff look any more obvious than it already
is so I threw it into FAQ.   And I run X-Windows, thank you.  :-)

-- 
  Bruce Momjian                        |  http://candle.pha.pa.us
  pgman@candle.pha.pa.us               |  (610) 853-3000
  +  If your life is a hard drive,     |  830 Blythe Avenue
  +  Christ can be your backup.        |  Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026

Tue, 17 Oct 2000 12:04:38 -0400 (EDT)
Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>
Re: pgsql/doc (FAQ_MSWIN INSTALL_MSWIN)
Bruce Momjian writes:

> > Bruce Momjian - CVS writes:
> > 
> > > FAQ_MSWIN is better than INSTALL_MSWIN
> > 
> > No it's not...  The file in question doesn't contain any questions or
> > answers, it contains installation instructions for Windows.  Oh, and yes,
> > Microsoft does own the Windows name.
> 
> I don't like to make the MS stuff look any more obvious than it already
> is so I threw it into FAQ.

First, since when are we in the business of hiding away documentation for
a supported platform, and second, how does putting installation
instructions into a file named "FAQ" make it less "obvious"?

> And I run X-Windows, thank you.  :-)

:      The X Consortium requests that the following names be used
:      when referring to this software:
:
:                                   X
:                            X Window System
:                              X Version 11
:                      X Window System, Version 11
:                                  X11

-- 
Peter Eisentraut      peter_e@gmx.net       http://yi.org/peter-e/


Tue, 17 Oct 2000 18:39:39 +0200 (CEST)
Peter Eisentraut <peter_e@gmx.net>
Re: pgsql/doc (FAQ_MSWIN INSTALL_MSWIN)
> Bruce Momjian writes:
> 
> > > Bruce Momjian - CVS writes:
> > > 
> > > > FAQ_MSWIN is better than INSTALL_MSWIN
> > > 
> > > No it's not...  The file in question doesn't contain any questions or
> > > answers, it contains installation instructions for Windows.  Oh, and yes,
> > > Microsoft does own the Windows name.
> > 
> > I don't like to make the MS stuff look any more obvious than it already
> > is so I threw it into FAQ.
> 
> First, since when are we in the business of hiding away documentation for
> a supported platform, and second, how does putting installation
> instructions into a file named "FAQ" make it less "obvious"?

Help, I am losing here.  Does anyone want to help me...  :-)


> > And I run X-Windows, thank you.  :-)
> 
> :      The X Consortium requests that the following names be used
> :      when referring to this software:
> :
> :                                   X
> :                            X Window System
> :                              X Version 11
> :                      X Window System, Version 11
> :                                  X11

No one calls it the X Window System, they call it X Windows, and if MS
owns the word Windows, we are in trouble.  It means they own half our
name.

-- 
  Bruce Momjian                        |  http://candle.pha.pa.us
  pgman@candle.pha.pa.us               |  (610) 853-3000
  +  If your life is a hard drive,     |  830 Blythe Avenue
  +  Christ can be your backup.        |  Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026

Tue, 17 Oct 2000 12:41:58 -0400 (EDT)
Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>
Re: pgsql/doc (FAQ_MSWIN INSTALL_MSWIN)
Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us> writes:
>> First, since when are we in the business of hiding away documentation for
>> a supported platform, and second, how does putting installation
>> instructions into a file named "FAQ" make it less "obvious"?

> Help, I am losing here.  Does anyone want to help me...  :-)

Change the contents of the file to follow a FAQ structure ;-)

			regards, tom lane

Tue, 17 Oct 2000 12:58:10 -0400
Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
Re: pgsql/doc (FAQ_MSWIN INSTALL_MSWIN) 
On Tue, 17 Oct 2000, Bruce Momjian wrote:

> > Bruce Momjian writes:
> > 
> > > > Bruce Momjian - CVS writes:
> > > > 
> > > > > FAQ_MSWIN is better than INSTALL_MSWIN
> > > > 
> > > > No it's not...  The file in question doesn't contain any questions or
> > > > answers, it contains installation instructions for Windows.  Oh, and yes,
> > > > Microsoft does own the Windows name.
> > > 
> > > I don't like to make the MS stuff look any more obvious than it already
> > > is so I threw it into FAQ.
> > 
> > First, since when are we in the business of hiding away documentation for
> > a supported platform, and second, how does putting installation
> > instructions into a file named "FAQ" make it less "obvious"?
> 
> Help, I am losing here.  Does anyone want to help me...  :-)

I'm having a hard time following the quoting..  Are you arguing with
yourself?  :)

Vince.
-- 
==========================================================================
Vince Vielhaber -- KA8CSH    email: vev@michvhf.com    http://www.pop4.net
 128K ISDN from $22.00/mo - 56K Dialup from $16.00/mo at Pop4 Networking
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       Online Giftshop Superstore    http://www.cloudninegifts.com
==========================================================================




Tue, 17 Oct 2000 13:03:41 -0400 (EDT)
Vince Vielhaber <vev@michvhf.com>
Re: pgsql/doc (FAQ_MSWIN INSTALL_MSWIN)
> > > First, since when are we in the business of hiding away documentation for
> > > a supported platform, and second, how does putting installation
> > > instructions into a file named "FAQ" make it less "obvious"?
> > 
> > Help, I am losing here.  Does anyone want to help me...  :-)
> 
> I'm having a hard time following the quoting..  Are you arguing with
> yourself?  :)

Yes, Peter is beating up my argument pretty good.

-- 
  Bruce Momjian                        |  http://candle.pha.pa.us
  pgman@candle.pha.pa.us               |  (610) 853-3000
  +  If your life is a hard drive,     |  830 Blythe Avenue
  +  Christ can be your backup.        |  Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026

Tue, 17 Oct 2000 13:14:07 -0400 (EDT)
Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>
Re: pgsql/doc (FAQ_MSWIN INSTALL_MSWIN)
Bruce Momjian writes:

> > > > First, since when are we in the business of hiding away documentation for
> > > > a supported platform, and second, how does putting installation
> > > > instructions into a file named "FAQ" make it less "obvious"?
> > > 
> > > Help, I am losing here.  Does anyone want to help me...  :-)
> > 
> > I'm having a hard time following the quoting..  Are you arguing with
> > yourself?  :)
> 
> Yes, Peter is beating up my argument pretty good.

Let's settle on INSTALL_MSWIN.


-- 
Peter Eisentraut      peter_e@gmx.net       http://yi.org/peter-e/


Wed, 18 Oct 2000 21:44:46 +0200 (CEST)
Peter Eisentraut <peter_e@gmx.net>
Re: pgsql/doc (FAQ_MSWIN INSTALL_MSWIN)
No.  I will turn it into an FAQ, and the item will be "How do I install
PostgreSQL on MS Windows".  How's that?


> Bruce Momjian writes:
> 
> > > > > First, since when are we in the business of hiding away documentation for
> > > > > a supported platform, and second, how does putting installation
> > > > > instructions into a file named "FAQ" make it less "obvious"?
> > > > 
> > > > Help, I am losing here.  Does anyone want to help me...  :-)
> > > 
> > > I'm having a hard time following the quoting..  Are you arguing with
> > > yourself?  :)
> > 
> > Yes, Peter is beating up my argument pretty good.
> 
> Let's settle on INSTALL_MSWIN.
> 
> 
> -- 
> Peter Eisentraut      peter_e@gmx.net       http://yi.org/peter-e/
> 
> 


-- 
  Bruce Momjian                        |  http://candle.pha.pa.us
  pgman@candle.pha.pa.us               |  (610) 853-3000
  +  If your life is a hard drive,     |  830 Blythe Avenue
  +  Christ can be your backup.        |  Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026

Wed, 18 Oct 2000 17:13:21 -0400 (EDT)
Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>
Re: pgsql/doc (FAQ_MSWIN INSTALL_MSWIN)
Bruce Momjian writes:

> No.  I will turn it into an FAQ, and the item will be "How do I install
> PostgreSQL on MS Windows".  How's that?

I don't see how that would be better.  Why this artificiality?  
Installation instructions belong into INSTALL files.  FAQs are questions
asked by people because the documentation is incomplete or the software is
badly designed.  I mean, you could make everything a FAQ, but FAQs should
be a backup thing, not a first order documentation resource.

-- 
Peter Eisentraut      peter_e@gmx.net       http://yi.org/peter-e/


Thu, 19 Oct 2000 16:36:06 +0200 (CEST)
Peter Eisentraut <peter_e@gmx.net>
Re: pgsql/doc (FAQ_MSWIN INSTALL_MSWIN)
> Bruce Momjian writes:
> 
> > No.  I will turn it into an FAQ, and the item will be "How do I install
> > PostgreSQL on MS Windows".  How's that?
> 
> I don't see how that would be better.  Why this artificiality?  
> Installation instructions belong into INSTALL files.  FAQs are questions
> asked by people because the documentation is incomplete or the software is
> badly designed.  I mean, you could make everything a FAQ, but FAQs should
> be a backup thing, not a first order documentation resource.

Currently all our platform-specific files are FAQ's.  I can imagine
someone realizing that, looking for an MS one, and giving up and never
seeing INSTALL_MSWIN.  Also, the platform-specific stuff is on the web
pages under FAQ.  I don't want to make a separate section just for the
MS OS.

-- 
  Bruce Momjian                        |  http://candle.pha.pa.us
  pgman@candle.pha.pa.us               |  (610) 853-3000
  +  If your life is a hard drive,     |  830 Blythe Avenue
  +  Christ can be your backup.        |  Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026

Thu, 19 Oct 2000 11:49:24 -0400 (EDT)
Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>
Re: pgsql/doc (FAQ_MSWIN INSTALL_MSWIN)
On Thu, 19 Oct 2000, Bruce Momjian wrote:

> > Bruce Momjian writes:
> > 
> > > No.  I will turn it into an FAQ, and the item will be "How do I install
> > > PostgreSQL on MS Windows".  How's that?
> > 
> > I don't see how that would be better.  Why this artificiality?  
> > Installation instructions belong into INSTALL files.  FAQs are questions
> > asked by people because the documentation is incomplete or the software is
> > badly designed.  I mean, you could make everything a FAQ, but FAQs should
> > be a backup thing, not a first order documentation resource.
> 
> Currently all our platform-specific files are FAQ's.  I can imagine
> someone realizing that, looking for an MS one, and giving up and never
> seeing INSTALL_MSWIN.  Also, the platform-specific stuff is on the web
> pages under FAQ.  I don't want to make a separate section just for the
> MS OS.

MS_FAQ:

1. How do I install?
a. Read the INSTALL_MSWIN file



Thu, 19 Oct 2000 12:59:13 -0300 (ADT)
The Hermit Hacker <scrappy@hub.org>
Re: [HACKERS] Re: pgsql/doc (FAQ_MSWIN INSTALL_MSWIN)
Fixed.  Thanks.


> Bruce Momjian writes:
> 
> > Currently all our platform-specific files are FAQ's.  I can imagine
> > someone realizing that, looking for an MS one, and giving up and never
> > seeing INSTALL_MSWIN.  Also, the platform-specific stuff is on the web
> > pages under FAQ.  I don't want to make a separate section just for the
> > MS OS.
> 
> Okay, that's somewhat reasonable.  Only that the INSTALL file directs
> people to read INSTALL_WIN, so you need to change that, too.  (Actually,
> it's in installation.sgml.)
> 
> -- 
> Peter Eisentraut      peter_e@gmx.net       http://yi.org/peter-e/
> 
> 


-- 
  Bruce Momjian                        |  http://candle.pha.pa.us
  pgman@candle.pha.pa.us               |  (610) 853-3000
  +  If your life is a hard drive,     |  830 Blythe Avenue
  +  Christ can be your backup.        |  Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026

Thu, 19 Oct 2000 13:47:53 -0400 (EDT)
Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>
Re: pgsql/doc (FAQ_MSWIN INSTALL_MSWIN)
> Bruce Momjian writes:
> 
> > Currently all our platform-specific files are FAQ's.  I can imagine
> > someone realizing that, looking for an MS one, and giving up and never
> > seeing INSTALL_MSWIN.  Also, the platform-specific stuff is on the web
> > pages under FAQ.  I don't want to make a separate section just for the
> > MS OS.
> 
> Okay, that's somewhat reasonable.  Only that the INSTALL file directs
> people to read INSTALL_WIN, so you need to change that, too.  (Actually,
> it's in installation.sgml.)

The bottom line is that I am slightly embarrassed to be supporting a
Microsoft OS, and want to give it as little special treatment as
possible.

-- 
  Bruce Momjian                        |  http://candle.pha.pa.us
  pgman@candle.pha.pa.us               |  (610) 853-3000
  +  If your life is a hard drive,     |  830 Blythe Avenue
  +  Christ can be your backup.        |  Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026

Thu, 19 Oct 2000 13:49:24 -0400 (EDT)
Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>
Re: pgsql/doc (FAQ_MSWIN INSTALL_MSWIN)
Bruce Momjian writes:

> Currently all our platform-specific files are FAQ's.  I can imagine
> someone realizing that, looking for an MS one, and giving up and never
> seeing INSTALL_MSWIN.  Also, the platform-specific stuff is on the web
> pages under FAQ.  I don't want to make a separate section just for the
> MS OS.

Okay, that's somewhat reasonable.  Only that the INSTALL file directs
people to read INSTALL_WIN, so you need to change that, too.  (Actually,
it's in installation.sgml.)

-- 
Peter Eisentraut      peter_e@gmx.net       http://yi.org/peter-e/


Thu, 19 Oct 2000 19:50:07 +0200 (CEST)
Peter Eisentraut <peter_e@gmx.net>
Re: pgsql/doc (FAQ_MSWIN INSTALL_MSWIN)
At 01:49 PM 10/19/00 -0400, Bruce Momjian wrote:

>The bottom line is that I am slightly embarrassed to be supporting a
>Microsoft OS, and want to give it as little special treatment as
>possible.

You know, if folks have a good experience running an Open Source RDBMS
under a Microsoft OS, they may become more open to exploring other 
Open Source software, such as Open Office (lately Star Office) as it
matures, and perhaps even one of our fave Open Source operating systems
eventually...



- Don Baccus, Portland OR <dhogaza@pacifier.com>
  Nature photos, on-line guides, Pacific Northwest
  Rare Bird Alert Service and other goodies at
  http://donb.photo.net.

Thu, 19 Oct 2000 14:40:09 -0700
Don Baccus <dhogaza@pacifier.com>
Re: [HACKERS] Re: pgsql/doc (FAQ_MSWIN
  INSTALL_MSWIN)
[ I know I should ignore this thread, but ... ]

Don Baccus <dhogaza@pacifier.com> writes:
> You know, if folks have a good experience running an Open Source RDBMS
> under a Microsoft OS,

Yeah, but the $64 question is whether they *will* have a good experience
running Postgres under Windows.  I wouldn't regard any Microsoft OS as
stable enough to run a database server on, and I'm not eager to take the
blame for their shortcomings if someone gets burnt trying.

			regards, tom lane

Thu, 19 Oct 2000 17:55:34 -0400
Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
Re: [HACKERS] Re: pgsql/doc (FAQ_MSWIN INSTALL_MSWIN) 
> > > Currently all our platform-specific files are FAQ's.  I can imagine
> > > someone realizing that, looking for an MS one, and giving up and never
> > > seeing INSTALL_MSWIN.  Also, the platform-specific stuff is on the web
> > > pages under FAQ.  I don't want to make a separate section just for the
> > > MS OS.
> > Okay, that's somewhat reasonable.  Only that the INSTALL file directs
> > people to read INSTALL_WIN, so you need to change that, too.  (Actually,
> > it's in installation.sgml.)
> The bottom line is that I am slightly embarrassed to be supporting a
> Microsoft OS, and want to give it as little special treatment as
> possible.

Hmm. It is a fact that M$Windows is not quite the same as *any* of the
other boxes we support. Lots of us prefer running on a real system, but
there is no need to actively obfuscate our support for the unpleasant
alternative.

We currently have a section in the printed/html docs covering installing
on M$ for client-side libraries, and we should move the installation
instructions for the server into these docs also. If others are willing
to do the work to support it, we can make sure it has a place in the
distro imho.

It doesn't mean that we can't have a bit of individual joy when M$ moves
to our "unsupported, because we haven't heard that anyone is running it
anymore" list ;)

                       - Thomas

Fri, 20 Oct 2000 02:43:52 +0000
Thomas Lockhart <lockhart@alumni.caltech.edu>
Re: pgsql/doc (FAQ_MSWIN INSTALL_MSWIN)
Thomas Lockhart writes:

> Hmm. It is a fact that M$Windows is not quite the same as *any* of the
> other boxes we support.

> We currently have a section in the printed/html docs covering installing
> on M$ for client-side libraries, and we should move the installation
> instructions for the server into these docs also.

Note that there's a difference here:  Support for a plain-old Windows 95
box with MS Visual C++ compiler is certainly very different.  There are
even separate makefiles (project files?) for that.

OTOH, support for Windows NT with Cygwin is not "exceptional" compared to
any other supported system.  You run configure; make; make install, with
GNU make and GCC. The only thing this INSTALL_WIN file does is to tell
people where to download Cygwin and cgyipc, which is no more different
than FAQ_Solaris telling people to download GNU packages from
www.sunfreeware.com or FAQ_HPUX advising to download various vendor
patches.

-- 
Peter Eisentraut      peter_e@gmx.net       http://yi.org/peter-e/


Fri, 20 Oct 2000 19:32:59 +0200 (CEST)
Peter Eisentraut <peter_e@gmx.net>
Re: pgsql/doc (FAQ_MSWIN INSTALL_MSWIN)
Peter Eisentraut wrote:
> OTOH, support for Windows NT with Cygwin is not "exceptional" compared to
> any other supported system.  You run configure; make; make install, with
> GNU make and GCC. The only thing this INSTALL_WIN file does is to tell
> people where to download Cygwin and cgyipc, which is no more different
> than FAQ_Solaris telling people to download GNU packages from
> www.sunfreeware.com or FAQ_HPUX advising to download various vendor
> patches.

OK. I *should* have looked on my development box before spouting off
mail, eh? ;)

Sorry for the noise...

                      - Thomas

Sat, 21 Oct 2000 02:38:46 +0000
Thomas Lockhart <lockhart@alumni.caltech.edu>
Re: pgsql/doc (FAQ_MSWIN INSTALL_MSWIN)