Curtis (2012) does not consider the number of surviving loanwords to be a valid argument, as many Greek loans were likely lost through replacement by later Latin and Slavic loans, just as notoriously happened to most native Albanian vocabulary. Some scholars such as Çabej and Huld have challenged the argument that Greek evidence implies a "northern" origin, instead suggesting the opposite, that the specifically Northwestern/Doric affiliations and ancient dating of Greek loans imply a specifically Western Balkan Albanian presence to the north and west of Greeks specifically in antiquity, though Huld cautions that the classical "precursors" of the Albanians would be "'Illyrians' to classical writers", but that the Illyrian label is hardly "enlightening" since classical ethnology was imprecise. Example include Ancient Greek "λάχανον" and its Albanian reflex "lakër" because it would appear to have been loaned before <"χ>" changed from an aspirated stop /kʰ/ to a fricative /x/, "μᾱχανά" and its Albanian reflex "mokër" which likewise seems to reflect a stop /kʰ/ for <"χ>" and also must be specifically Doric or Northwestern (other Greek dialects have <"e>" or <"η>" rather than <"ά>)," and "θωράκιον" and its Albanian reflex "targozë" which would appear to have predated the frication of Greek <"θ>" (before the shift in Koine, representing /tʰ/).