In the early years, Francis had been able to lead the friars by his personal charisma. As their number grew, and there were scattered in distant countries many who had never or rarely met the founder. Angelo Clareno says that at some general chapter the ministers and custodes, asked Cardinal Ugolino to use his influence with Francis that he might introduce some organization into the order according to the Rules of Augustine, Benedict, and Bernard, and that they might receive some influence. Francis being questioned, answered that he was called to walk by the way of simplicity, and that he would always follow the folly of the Cross. The chapter at which this occurred was most, likely the one of 1220.