Yet another route are simply those with little to no experience in the games industry, though may have computer experience skills, and come in with ideas and fresh perspectives for games, with ideas that are generally more personable and close to their heart. These developers are usually self-taught and thus may not have certain disciplines of typical programmers, allowing for more creative freedom and new ideas. However, some may see amateur work less favorably than those that have had experience, whether from school or from industry, relying on the game development toolkits rather than programming languages, and associate such titles as amateur or hobbyist. Examples of such amateur games include "Braid", "Super Meat Boy", "Dwarf Fortress", and "Undertale".