Strong states that "... sections of what was hardcore became known as grunge." Seattle songwriter Jeff Stetson states that "[there is no real difference ... between Punk and Grunge." Like punk bands, grunge groups were "embraced as back-to-basics rock 'n' roll bands which reminded the public that the music was supposed to be raw and raunchy", and they were a response to "bloated and over-the-top ... progressive rock ... or "not seriougroups like the hair bands of the '80s." One example of the influence of US hardcore on grunge is the impact that the Los Angeles hardcore punk band Black Flag had on grunge. Black Flag's 1984 record "My War", on which the band combined heavy metal with their traditional sound, made a strong impact in Seattle. Mudhoney's Steve Turner commented, "A lot of other people around the country hated the fact that Black Flag slowed down ... but up here it was really great ... we were like 'Yay!' They were weird and fucked-up sounding." Turner explained grunge's integration of metal influences, noting, "Hard rock and metal was never that much of an enemy of punk like it was for other scenes. Here, it was like, 'There's only twenty people here, you can't really find a group to hate.'" Charles R. Cross states that grunge was the "... culmination of twenty years of punk rock" development. Cross states that the bands most representing the grunge genre were Seattle bands Blood Circus, TAD, and Mudhoney and Sub Pop's Denver band The Fluid; he states that Nirvana, with its pop influences and blend of Sonic Youth and Cheap Trick, was lighter-sounding than bands like Blood Circus.