Sociologist Edward Sagarin noted that alcoholics and addicts are considered deviants because their behavior is socially labeled as deviant. Meaning chronic substance abuse is seen as deviant, while being sober or "clean" is normal. For an alcoholic or addict, joining groups such as AA or NA immediately reduces their deviant stigma, regardless of whether or not the alcoholic or addict believes it does. There is no similar clear cut language to label the deviance of those in N/A, in the act of joining members label themselves as deviant and take on stigma by identifying as one of those in the group afflicted with the problems of the other members. Initially joining the group may prove to be more ego damaging than ego reinforcing, regardless of whether or not the group helps them overcome their problems. Therefore, social stigma would attract alcoholics and addicts to groups like AA and NA. It would, however, become a barrier preventing people from joining groups such as N/A.