Rabbi Isaac taught that it is forbidden to count Israel even for the purpose of fulfilling a commandment, as can be read, "And he numbered them with pebbles (, "be-bezek")." Rav Ashi demurred, asking how Rabbi Isaac knew that the word , "bezek", in means being broken pieces (that is, pebbles). Rav Ashi suggested that perhaps , "Bezek", is the name of a place, as in which says, "And they found Adoni-Bezek in Bezek (, "be-bezek")." Rav Ashi argued that the prohibition of counting comes from which can be read, "And Saul summoned the people and numbered them with sheep (, "telaim")." Rabbi Eleazar taught that whoever counts Israel transgresses a Biblical prohibition, as says, "Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which "cannot be measured"." Rav Nahman bar Isaac said that such a person would transgress two prohibitions, for says, "Which cannot be measured nor numbered." Rabbi Samuel bar Nahmani reported that Rabbi Jonathan noted a potential contradiction, as says, "Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea" (implying a finite number, but also says, "Which cannot be numbered" (implying that they will not have a finite number). The Gemara answered that there is no contradiction, for the latter part of speaks of the time when Israel fulfils God's will, while the earlier part of speaks of the time when they do not fulfill God's will. Rabbi said on behalf of Abba Jose ben Dosthai that there is no contradiction, for the latter part of speaks of counting done by human beings, while the earlier part of speaks of counting by Heaven.