A utilitarian argument against torture is that the majority of tortures are employed not as a method of extracting information, but as a method of terrorizing and subjugating the population, enabling state forces to dispense with ordinary means of establishing innocence or guilt and with the whole legal apparatus altogether. Therefore, it is better that a few individuals be killed by bombers than a much greater number—possibly thousands of innocent people—be tortured and murdered and legal and constitutional provisions destroyed. During the investigation of Italian Prime Minister Aldo Moro's kidnapping, General Carlo Alberto Dalla Chiesa reportedly responded to a member of the security services who suggested torture against a suspect, "Italy can survive the loss of Aldo Moro. It would not survive the introduction of torture."