From relatively dark suburban areas, the limiting magnitude is frequently closer to 5 or somewhat fainter, but from very remote and clear sites, some amateur astronomers can see nearly as faint as 8th magnitude. Many basic observing references quote a limiting magnitude of 6, as this is the approximate limit of star maps which date from before the invention of the telescope. Ability in this area, which requires the use of averted vision, varies substantially from observer to observer, with both youth and experience being beneficial.