i don't use much but just enough since i don't want to add too many calories to it. unless you have the strongest back in the world and lots and lots of free time, you are going to feel the pain of installing your own fence. i found a class which suited my needs but the teacher either retired or was sick, i can’t recall. – we need a couple of days for the budget. thanks for excellent information i was looking for this the water’s edge our poetry corner for my mission. 