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[Assistant] The plan called for the creation of one state with two territories, East and West Pakistan, located two thousand kilometers apart.


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[Assistant] But Hindu and Muslim communities in Bengal and Punjab were inextricably mixed. Drawing borders was an exercise in absurdity.


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[Assistant] But the very morning after independence celebrations, Hindus in Pakistan and Muslims in India began to flee their homes. Muslims headed for Pakistan, while Hindus set off for India.


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[Assistant] Enormous convoys of people moving in opposite directions. The greatest mass migration in history.


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[Assistant] Ten million people were displaced. Many were attacked by robbers and armed militants along the way. A million people lost their lives.


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[Assistant] But Hindu nationalists accused Gandhi of allowing Muslims to steal part of the Hindu nation.


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[Assistant] We went to the Delhi headquarters of the right-wing Hindu Masaba organization.


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[Assistant] There we spoke to its then president, who maintained that his was the only group that sought to defend India's integrity.


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[Assistant] A few months after independence, the new states waged their first war over Kashmir, a province with a Muslim majority but a Hindu maharaja.


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[Assistant] The two sides agreed to a ceasefire along what's known as the Line of Control. It divided the region in two, with one side administered by India and the other by Pakistan.


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[Assistant] Of the three officially declared wars between India and Pakistan, two have been over Kashmir, and it remains a flashpoint to this day.


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[Assistant] On September the 9th, 1947, Gandhi moved into the Delhi home of his friend, the industrialist and Congress party supporter Ganshyam Das Birla.


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[Assistant] In January of the following year, Gandhi began another indefinite fast, saying he would only eat if he saw a plan to stop the continuing violence.


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[Assistant] Hindus who had fled persecution in Pakistan were dumbfounded by Gandhi's empathy for Muslims, which was inherent in the second, indirect goal of his fasting.


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[Assistant] Hindu nationalists found it scandalous that Gandhi would fast to ensure India respected the financial clauses of the partition agreement and transfer 550 million rupees to a country that had launched armed cross-border raids on Kashmir.


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[Assistant] The attack of January 20th was botched. Gopal Godse was unable to reach the window from which he planned to fire his gun. He hadn't thought of bringing a ladder.


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[Assistant] The group fled back to Puna to plan a renewed attack.


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[Assistant] Under interrogation he revealed the names of his co-conspirators.


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[Assistant] Even now there is debate in India as to why police failed to apprehend the men for 10 days.


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[Assistant] In a radio broadcast, Nehru announced the news of Gandhi's death. The light has gone out of our lives, and there is darkness everywhere.


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[Assistant] The trial of Gandhi's assassins was held at the Red Fort, a highly symbolic location.


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[Assistant] It was there that Nero had made his first speech to independent India, and to this day the Prime Minister addresses crowds from the Red Fort on Independence Day.


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[Assistant] India is a democracy. The defendants had the right to a fair trial.


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[Assistant] Amid a resurgence of fundamentalism in India, nationalist groups like the Hindu Masaba are enjoying a revival.


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[Assistant] At its Delhi headquarters there is a statue of its late leader Vinayak Damodar Savarkar, a contemporary of Gandhi's and a nationalist, but one with a very different ideology.


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[Assistant] Savarkar spawned the idea of Hindutva, or Hinduness, a concept that inseparably links the Hindu and Indian identity.


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[Assistant] Savarkar in a group photo with the conspirators. He was also arrested and tried, but denied all charges and was acquitted.


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[Assistant] Gandhi had envisioned an independent India that was self-sufficient and predominantly agrarian. Nehru's approach was more grounded in economic reality.


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[Assistant] He aimed to combat economic stagnation and dire poverty with state-centered planning and industrialization that relied on domestic industry.


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[Assistant] The same hand wheel, the same motions as back then when cotton was spun to create the basis for economic independence.


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[Assistant] A growing middle class shops at new malls. Are these the temples of India today?


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[Assistant] India's Congress Party marked the 75th anniversary of the salt march.


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[Assistant] He joined the marchers as they reached the coast in Gujarat, 75 years to the day that Mahatma Gandhi shook the British Empire to its core by harvesting a handful of salt.


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[Assistant] Whether on 35mm film or on digital video, the cameras captured the same scene.


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[Assistant] Globalisation has swept aside many of Gandhi's principles, but the Mahatma's fundamental message has endured. A message that speaks of the power of peace, forgiveness and freedom, and can transcend even the hatred that killed him.


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[Assistant] As he walked, people would throw glass pieces on the way. They would throw, uh, excreta in his path. And his answer to that was to even remove the very simple sandals which he used to wear in order to walk and start walking barefoot.


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[Assistant] This had a tremendous moral impact and the parallel that we like to draw is between, in the Christian tradition, the crucifixion of Christ that is suffering for humanity, tormenting the flesh in order to make the moral appeal.


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[Assistant] There was a very close link between the leader of the Hindu Maa Sabha and the assassin, the main assassin and the main organizer of the conspiracy of the, uh, Mahatma. And, uh,


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[Assistant] Nathuram Gotse had been a close associate of Savarkar for at least a decade before the assassination. And this man Savarkar was directly involved, not just ideologically or inspiring, but directly involved in the conspiracy to murder, uh, Mahatma Gani.


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[Assistant] Written by Sarah J. Moss. Read by yours truly, FreeWata, with the exclamation point, or the added emphasis. We had finished up a long, it was a long chapter, chapter 29, and we got a lot of...


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[Assistant] In a game of telephone, you know, we know that a message will get...


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[Assistant] How that story actually changes from Ryze being told that, from knowing the people out east for like Miriam and Drakon and all that. And this hero, Nefelle, that we haven't heard about till now, that I know of at least off the top of my head. We may have heard her before, but maybe only in a short passing. Uhm.


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[Assistant] And I wonder how much of all this is true, how much of this is construed, uhm, I'm guessing all the events probably did happen, but how...


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[Assistant] How did it all occur from the actual people's perspective that were in it? But enough of uh,


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[Assistant] Enough of thinking in the future. We also had gotten some spicy sing. That's really what it was all about, baby. Get a little bit of that quick spice at the end of chapter 29. And let's see if we get a little bit more in chapter 30.


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[Assistant] I was still sore enough the next day that I had to send word to Cassie and I wasn't training with him. Or Azrael. A mistake.


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[Assistant] Perhaps given that both of them showed up at the door to the townhouse within minutes. The former demanding what the hell was wrong with me. The latter bearing a tin of salve to help with the aches in my back.


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[Assistant] I thanked Ezreal for the salve and told Cassie in the mind of his own business.


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[Assistant] And then asked him to fly Nesta up to the House of Wind for me. Since I certainly couldn't fly her in, even for a few feet after winnowing.


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[Assistant] My sister, it seemed, had found nothing in her books about repairing the wall. And since no one had yet shown her the library, I had volunteered.


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[Assistant] Especially since Lucian had left before breakfast for a library across the city to look up anything in regard to fixing the wall. A task I'd been more than willing to hand over.


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[Assistant] I might have felt guilty for never giving him a proper tour of Alaris, but he seemed eager. More than eager. He seemed to be itching to head into the city on his own.


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[Assistant] The two Illyrians paused their inspection of me long enough to note my sister's finishing up breakfast.


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[Assistant] Nested in a pale gray gown that brought out the steel in her eyes, a lane and a dusty pink. Both males went a bit still, but Azrael sketched a bow.


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[Assistant] While Cassian stalked for the dining table, reached right over Nesta's shoulder and grabbed a muffin from its little basket.


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[Assistant] Morning, Nesta. He said around the mouth of blueberry lemon. Elaine.


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[Assistant] Nesta's nostrils flared, but Elaine peered up at Cassium, blinking twice. He snapped your wings, broke your bones.


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[Assistant] I tried to shut out the sound of Cassian's scream. The memory of the spraying blood.


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[Assistant] Nesta stared at her plate. Elaine, at least. Was out of her room, but...


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[Assistant] It'll take more than that to kill me, Cassian said with a smirk that didn't meet his eyes. Blaine only said to Cassian, no, it will not.


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[Assistant] Cassian's dark brows narrowed. I dragged a hand over my face before going to Elaine and touching her two bony shoulder. Can I set you up in the garden? The herbs you planted are coming in nicely.


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[Assistant] I can help her, said Azrael. Stepping to the table as Elaine silently rose. No shadows at his ear.


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[Assistant] No darkness wringing his fingers as he extended a hand. Nesta monitored him like a hawk.


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[Assistant] It kept silent as Elaine took his hand, and out they went. Cassian finished the muffin, licking his fingers.


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[Assistant] I could have sworn Ness to watch the entire thing with a sidelong glance. He grinned at her as if he knew it too. Ready for some flying, Ness? Don't call me that.


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[Assistant] The wrong thing to say, from the way Cassian's eyes lit up.


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[Assistant] I chose that moment to window to the skies above the house, chuckling as wind carried me through the world.


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[Assistant] Some sisterly payback, I suppose, for Nesta's general attitude.


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[Assistant] Mercifully, no one saw my slightly better crash landing on the veranda, and by the time Cassian's dark figure appeared in the sky, Nesta's hair bright as bronze in the morning sun, I brushed off the dirt and dust from my leathers.


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[Assistant] My sister's face was windplushed as Cassian gently set her down. Then she strode for the glass doors without a single look back.


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[Assistant] You're welcome, Cassian called after her, more than a bite to his voice.


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[Assistant] His hands clenched and slackened at his sides, as if he were trying to loosen the feel of her from his palms.


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[Assistant] Thank you, I said to him. But Cassian didn't bother saying farewell as he launched skyward and vanished into the clouds. The library beneath the house was shadowed, quiet.


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[Assistant] The doors opened for us the same way they'd opened when Ryze and I had first visited. Nesta said nothing.


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[Assistant] Only surveying every stack in alcove and dangling chandelier as I led her down to the level where Clotho had found those books.


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[Assistant] I showed her the small reading area where I'd been stationed, and gestured to the desk.


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[Assistant] I know Cassian gets under your skin, but I'm curious too. How do you know what to look for in regards to the wall?


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[Assistant] Nesta ran a finger over the ancient wood desk because I just do.


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[Assistant] How? I don't know. Amarin told me to just see if the information clicks.


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[Assistant] And perhaps that frightened her. Intrigued her, but frightened her.


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[Assistant] And she hadn't told Cassian, not out of spite, but because she didn't wish to reveal that vulnerability, that lack of control. It didn't push.


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[Assistant] Even as I stared at her for a long moment, I didn't know how. How to broach that subject. How to ask if she was alright, if I could help her.


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[Assistant] I'd never been affectionate with her. I'd never held her, kissed her cheek. I didn't know where to begin. So I just said,


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[Assistant] Ryze gave me a layout of the stacks. I think there might be more on the cauldron. Oh, and wall, a few levels down. You can wait here, or... I'll help you luck.


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[Assistant] We follow the sloping path in silence. The rustle of paper and occasional whisper of a priestess's robes along the stone floors that only sounds.


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[Assistant] I quietly explained to her who the priestesses were, why they were here.


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[Assistant] I explained that Ryze and I plan to offer sanctuary to any humans who can make it to Valaris.


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[Assistant] She said nothing. Quieter and quieter as we descended. That black pit on my right seemed to grow thicker the deeper we went.


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[Assistant] But we reached a path of stacks that veered into the mountain in a long haul. Bay lights flickering into life, within glass globes along the wall as we passed.


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[Assistant] Nesta scanned the shelves while we walked, and I read the titles a bit more slowly.


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[Assistant] Still needing a little time to process what was instinct for my sister.


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[Assistant] I didn't know you couldn't really read. Nesta said as she paused before a nondescript section, noticing the way I silently sounded out the words of a title.


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[Assistant] I didn't know where you were in your lessons when it all happened. I assumed you could read as easily as us. Well, I couldn't. Why didn't you ask us to teach you? I trailed a finger over the neat rows of spines because I doubted you would agree to help.


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[Assistant] Nesta stiffened like I had hit her. Coldness blooming in her eyes. She tugged a book from a shelf. Amarin said, Risen taught you how to read. My cheeks heated. He did.


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[Assistant] And there, deep beneath the world, with only darkness for company, I asked, Why do you push everyone away but Elaine? Why have you always pushed me away?


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[Assistant] Some emotion guttered in her eyes. Her throat bobbed.


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[Assistant] Nesta shut her eyes for a moment, breathing in sharply. Because. The words stopped. I felt it at the same moment she did. The ripple and tremor. Like. Like some piece of the world shifted. Like some off kilter cord had been plucked.


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[Assistant] We turn toward the illuminated path that we'd just taken through the stacks, then to the dark, far, far beyond.


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[Assistant] The fae lights along the ceiling began to sputter and die, one by one, closer and closer to us. I only had an Illyrian knife at my side. What is that? And as to breathe, run was all I said.


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[Assistant] I didn't give her a chance to object as I grabbed her by the elbow and sprinted into the stacks ahead. Bay lights flickered to life as we passed, only to be devoured by the dark surging for us. Slow. My sister was so damn slow with her dress. Her general lack of exercising. Rise. Nothing.


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[Assistant] If the wards around the prison were thick enough to keep out communication, perhaps the same applied here.


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[Assistant] A wall approached with a wall bef- with a hall before it, a second slope, left rising, right plunging down, darkness slithered down from above, but the inky gloom leading deeper, fresh and open.


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[Assistant] I went faster, I said to her. If we could lead whoever it was deep, perhaps we could cut back right to the pit. I could winnow. Winnow. I could winnow now.


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[Assistant] I grabbed Furnesta's arm, right as the darkness behind us paused and two high-faced stepped out of it. Both male. One dark-haired, one light.


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[Assistant] Both in grey jackets embroidered with bone white thread.


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[Assistant] I knew their coat of arms on the upper right shoulder. Knew their dead eyes. Hibern. Hibern was here.


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[Assistant] I didn't move fast enough as one of them blew out of breath toward us. As that blue feyvane dust sprayed into my eyes, my mouth, and my magic died out. Nessa's gasp told me she felt something similar.


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[Assistant] But it was on my sister that the two focused as I staggered back.


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[Assistant] Tears streaming, the dust from my eyes. Spitting out the feybane. I gripped her arm, trying to winnow. Nothing. Behind them a hooded priestess slumped to the ground.


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[Assistant] So easy to get into their minds once our master led us through the wards. Said one of them. Dark haired male.


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[Assistant] To make them think we were scholars. We'd planned to come for you, but it seems you found us first.


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[Assistant] All spoken to my sister. Nesta's face was near white. There were eyes showed no fear. Who are you?


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[Assistant] The white haired ones smiled broadly as they approached. We're the king's ravens, his far-flying eyes and talents, and we've come to take you back. The king, their master, he'd mother above.


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[Assistant] Was the king here? In Valaris? Rise! I slammed a mental hand into the bond over and over. Rise! Nothing.


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[Assistant] Nessa's breath began to come quickly. Swords hung at their sides to a piece.


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[Assistant] Their shoulders were broad, arms wide enough to indicate muscle filled those fine clothes.


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[Assistant] You're not taking her anywhere, I said, palming my knife.


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[Assistant] How had the king done it? Arrived here unnoted and fractured our wards, and if he was here in Valaris? I shoved down my terror at the thought, at what he might be doing beyond this library unseen and hidden.


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[Assistant] You're an unexpected prize too. The black haired one said to me, but you're a sister. A smile that showed all of his two white teeth.


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[Assistant] You took something from that cauldron girl. The king wants it back.


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[Assistant] That was why the cauldron couldn't shatter the wall. Not because its power was spent.


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[Assistant] Alright, you know, I was actually about to be like, you know what, why is Nesta always being such a hater? That was like my first thing gonna be coming out of this chapter. You know, like, she be acting too good for people, and you know what, maybe it is.


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[Assistant] Because she's too good. She literally took the powers of the cauldron and now she's too powerful. So I guess maybe pre-powers, I would have said Nesta kind of a, kind of a bitch.


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[Assistant] You know? Cause she didn't really only care about Elaine, but in a way that was like...


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[Assistant] She cared about herself caring about Elaine. But now that she's super powerful.


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[Assistant] I think she's allowed to act like that at the same time, you know, cause what's, what are they going to do?


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[Assistant] I can't believe a little bit of fey bane too. I don't think then, right, that fey bane should really stop her if she took more powers from the cauldron.


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[Assistant] Then a little bit of a like magical root that seemed to have wore off quicker from our homegirl Feyre as well.


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[Assistant] Like, I don't know. Maybe, maybe she'll be able to...


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[Assistant] Swing back some of that cauldron power on them and take them out, but we'll leave that for the next chapter. So y'all make sure to stay beautiful, stay hydrated and we will see you in that next chapter. Bye.


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[Assistant] It would take me hours to say all of their names.


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[Assistant] It is the feeling of being together, enjoying the company of a familiar face and sharing moments that matter to you, to me, to us. What matters to some could impact all of us, especially in a place like Northeast Ohio.


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[Assistant] Stories are shared from east to west to south. Stories of perseverance, of family, of love. If a story brings us together, it's what matters most.


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[Assistant] Recognize that feeling? It is the feeling of being together.


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[Assistant] Enjoying the company of a familiar face and sharing moments that matter to you, to me, to us. What matters to some could impact all of us, especially in a place like Northeast Ohio.


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[Assistant] Stories are shared from east to west to south. Stories of perseverance, of family, of love. If a story brings us together, it's what matters most.


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[Assistant] Recognize that feeling? It is the feeling of being together.


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[Assistant] Enjoying the company of a familiar face and sharing moments that matter to you, to me, to us. What matters to some could impact all of us, especially in a place like Northeast Ohio.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Stories are shared from east to west to south. Stories of perseverance, of family, of love. If a story brings us together, it's what matters most.


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[Assistant] Recognize that feeling? It is the feeling of being together.


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[Assistant] Enjoying the company of a familiar face and sharing moments that matter to you, to me, to us. What matters to some could impact all of us, especially in a place like Northeast Ohio.


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[Assistant] Stories are shared from east to west to south. Stories of perseverance, of family, of love. If a story brings us together, it's what matters most.


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[Assistant] Uh, Jennifer, is there such a thing as being too polished for an interview? Heck yeaah, Jennifer. Great question. There most definitely is. We were just talking about this the other day.


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[Assistant] Uhm, yesterday I did a livestream on LinkedIn called the 10 Things Recruiters Won't Tell You, But I Will. So if you did not see that livestream, again, you gotta hit the follow button in order to get my feeds, folks. Uhm, but.


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[Assistant] You need to read the room. You need to do your homework in advance. If a company is super cash, you do not go in over, overselling it. So there's always a rule of thumb in recruiting that you should, uhm,


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[Assistant] Not super cash, but cash, meaning khakis, and then you go one level up. Dressed pants and an open collared shirt.


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[Assistant] Again, not overdone. If they're like business professional.


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[Assistant] So if you're in a full-on suit and everybody's sitting around in flip-flops, it's just weird. Because in their mind, ooh, you know, you like to overdress.


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[Assistant] So you've gotta do your homework online. You can ask recruiters in advance. Hey, what's the dress code? What's appropriate? You know.


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[Assistant] What would I feel most comfortable in that day? Totally within your rights to ask that if you're going to an in-person interview. But do your homework online too. Research the hack out of them on Indeed, on Glassdoor, uhm, look at all their pictures on, on social media. You'll get a sense of what, how you should dress and how you should act. And the other thing, folks, is you really got to work on your brand, uhm, from head to toe.


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[Assistant] And people get so upset when I say this, but people hear what they see. This is a true statement. Doris Day, the famous actress, said this. People hear what they see. First impressions matter. So how you look


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[Assistant] You know, from hair and makeup and jewelry and, uhm, cologne and perfume that you wear and the outfit that you wear, all the way through to facial expressions, body language, hand gestures, all that stuff factors in together and creates a brand, creates a look.


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[Assistant] And we're taught that whatever we see in the interview, multiply it by 10, and that's what we're gonna get for a person on the job in 90 days. So we know everyone's kind of reining it in. So if we see anything out of whack in the interview process, that's a red flag because we know that's going to get magnified once you get the job.


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[Assistant] So there's a lot more that goes into interview prep than people realize. And if you didn't see the video yesterday, go over and check it out because you absolutely can be overdone and it will cost you the job, right? They're looking for you to be a cultural fit.


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[Assistant] They're looking for you to be able to blend, make others in the tribe feel comfortable, and any time you try to stand out too much, uh, that comes across that you might be a lone wolf, uh, you might be elitist, you might be difficult to, uh, play nice in the sandbox. So you gotta be really careful there.


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[Assistant] Chapter six. An old-fashioned card party. The clergyman's verses. The story of the convict's return.


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[Assistant] Several guests who were assembled in the old parlour rose to greet Mr. Pickwick and his friends upon their entrance.


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[Assistant] On the opposite side sat a bald-headed old gentleman with a good-humoured, benevolent face. The clergyman of Dingleydale.


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[Assistant] And next to him sat his wife, a stout, blooming old lady, who looked as if she were well skilled not only in the art and mystery of manufacturing homemade cordials greatly to other people's satisfaction, but of tasting them occasionally very much to her own.


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[Assistant] Delightful situation this, said Mr. Pickwick. Delightful, echoed Messrs. Snodgrass, Topman and Winkle. Well, I think it is, said Mr. Wardle.


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[Assistant] The hard-headed man looked triumphantly round, as if he had been very much contradicted by somebody, but had got the better of him at last. Around a better spot of ground in all Kent, said the hard-headed man again after a pause. Shet, Mullin's meadows, observed the fat man solemnly.


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[Assistant] Regular goodlander interposed another fat man. And so it is surely, said the third fat man. Everybody knows that, said the corpulent host. The hard-headed man looked dubiously round.


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[Assistant] Nothing the matter, is there? No, no. Mr. Miller was saying our land was better than Mullin's meadow. How should he know anything about it?


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[Assistant] saying which the old lady quite unconscious that she'd spoken above a whisper drew herself up and looked carving knives at the hard-headed delinquent.


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[Assistant] The old lady, who was much less deaf on this subject than on any other, replied in the affirmative, Joe!


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[Assistant] The wist players were Mr. Pickwick and the old lady, Mr. Miller and the fat gentleman. The round game comprised the rest of the company.


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[Assistant] The Round Game Table, on the other hand, was so boisterously merry as materially to interrupt the contemplations of Mr. Miller, who, not being quite so much absorbed as he ought to have been, contrived to commit various high crimes and misdemeanours.


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[Assistant] Which excited the wrath of the fat gentleman to a very great extent and called forth the good humour of the old lady in a proportionate degree.


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[Assistant] There, said the criminal Miller triumphantly as he took up the odd trick at the conclusion of a hand. That couldn't have been played better. I flatter myself. Impossible to have made another trick.


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[Assistant] Miller ought to have troubled the diamond, oughtn't he, sir? said the old lady. Mr. Pickwick nodded his scent. Ought I though, said the unfortunate, with a doubtful appeal to his partner.


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[Assistant] You orchard, said the fat gentleman in an awful voice.


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[Assistant] Very sorry, said the crestfallen miller. Matthews, that growled the fat gentleman. Two honours makes us eight.


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[Assistant] Said Mr. Pickwick, another hand. Can you whine? Inquired the old lady. I can, replied Mr. Pickwick, double single and the rub.


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[Assistant] Another double, said the old lady, triumphantly making a memorandum of the circumstance by placing one sixpence and a battered hapiny under the candlestick. A double, sir, said Mr Pickwick. Quite aware of the facture, replied the fat gentleman sharply.


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[Assistant] At the end of which time he emerged from his retirement and offered Mr. Pickwick a pinch of snuff with the air of a man who had made up his mind to a Christian forgiveness of injuries sustained.


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[Assistant] There was one old lady who always had about half a dozen cards to pay for, at which everybody laughed regularly every round. And when the old lady looked cross at having to pay, they laughed louder than ever, on which the old lady's face gradually brightened up till at last she laughed louder than any of them.


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[Assistant] Then, when the spinster aunt got matrimony, the young ladies laughed afresh, and the spinster aunt seemed disposed to be pettish till feeling Mr. Topman squeezing her hand under the table, she brightened up too, and looked rather knowing.


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[Assistant] As if matrimony in reality were not quite so far off as some people thought for.


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[Assistant] Whereupon everybody laughed again, and especially old Mr. Wardle, who enjoyed a joke as much as the youngest.


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[Assistant] As to Mr. Snodgrass, he did nothing but whisper poetical sentiments into his partner's ear.


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[Assistant] And Mr. Winkle came out with jokes which are very well known in town, but not at all known in the country. And as everybody laughed at them very heartily and said they were very capital, Mr. Winkle was in a state of great honour and glory.


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[Assistant] And the benevolent clergyman looked pleasantly on, for the happy faces which surrounded the table made the good old man feel happy too.


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[Assistant] Said the hospitable host, who was sitting in great state next to the old lady's armchair with her hand fast clasped in his. This is just what I like.


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[Assistant] I'm so attached to it that I keep up a blazing fire here every evening until it actually grows too hot to bear it.


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[Assistant] The tear which starts unbidden to the eye when the recollection of old times and the happiness of many years ago is suddenly recalled, stole down the old lady's face as she shook her head with a melancholy smile. You must excuse my talking about this old place, Mr. Pickwick, resumed the host after a short pause, for I love it dearly and know no other.


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[Assistant] About which, by the by, our excellent friend there made a song when he first came amongst us. Mr. Snodgrass, have you anything in your glass?


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[Assistant] Plenty, thank you replied that gentleman whose poetic curiosity had been greatly excited by the last observations of his entertainer.


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[Assistant] I beg your pardon, but you were talking about the song of the ivy. You must ask our friend opposite about that.


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[Assistant] A murmur of curiosity was, of course, the reply, and the old gentleman proceeded to recite, with the aid of sundry promptings from his wife, the lines in question. I call them, said he, the ivy green.


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[Assistant] The wall must be crumbled, the stone decayed to pleasure his dainty whim.


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[Assistant] And the moldering dust that years have made is a merry meal for him.


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[Assistant] The rich mold of dead men's graves, Creeping where grim death has been, A rare old plant is the ivy green.


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[Assistant] Whole ages have fled and their works decayed and nations have scattered bean. But the stout old ivy shall never fade from its hail and hearty green. The brave old plant in its lonely days shall fatten upon the past.


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[Assistant] Mr. Pickwick perused the lineaments of his face with an expression of great interest. The old gentleman, having concluded his dictation,


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[Assistant] And Mr Snodgrass, having returned his notebook to his pocket, Mr Pickwick said,


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[Assistant] You did make some notes, I think, about John Edmonds, did you not? Inquired Mr. Wartle.


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[Assistant] And was proceeding to change the subject when Mr. Pickwick said, I beg your pardon, but pray if I may venture to inquire, who was John Edmonds?


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[Assistant] The remainder of the party drew their chairs closer together, especially Mr. Tupman and the spinster aunt, who were possibly rather hard of hearing.


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[Assistant] And Mr. Miller, who had fallen asleep during the recital of the verses, roused from his slumbers by an admonitoric pinch.


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[Assistant] ...administered beneath the table by his ex-partner, the solemn fat man. The old gentleman, without further preface, commenced the following tale.


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[Assistant] Which is now just five and twenty years ago. The most notorious person among my parishioners was a man of the name of Edmonds, who leased a small farm near this spot.


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[Assistant] Beyond the few lazy and reckless vagabonds with whom he saunter away his time in the fields or sotted in the ale house, he had not a single friend or acquaintance.


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[Assistant] No one cared to speak to the man whom many feared and everyone detested, and Edmonds was shunned by all. This man had a wife and one son, who, when I first came here, was about twelve years old.


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[Assistant] And the recollection of what he had been to her awakened feelings of forbearance and meekness under suffering in her bosom, to which all God's creatures but women are strangers. They were poor.


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[Assistant] Those exertions were but ill repaid. People who passed the spot in the evening, sometimes at a late hour of the night, reported that they had heard the moans and sobs of a woman in distress and the sound of blows.


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[Assistant] And more than once when it was past midnight, the boy knocked softly at the door of a neighbour's house whether he had been sent to escape the drunken fury of his unnatural father. During the whole of this time,


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[Assistant] And when the poor creature often bore about her marks of ill usage and violence, which she could not wholly conceal, she was a constant attendant at our little church.


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[Assistant] Regularly every Sunday, morning and afternoon, she occupied the same seat with the boy at her side.


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[Assistant] Everyone had a friendly nod and a kind word for poor Mrs. Edmonds.


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[Assistant] Her care-worn face would lighten up with an expression of heartfelt gratitude and she would look, if not cheerful and happy, at least tranquil and contented. Five or six years passed away.


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[Assistant] Had bowed his mother's form and enfeebled her steps.


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[Assistant] But the arm that should have supported her was no longer locked in hers.


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[Assistant] The face that should have cheered her no more looked upon her own. She occupied her old seat, but there was a vacant one beside her.


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[Assistant] And carrying his recollection down to that moment could remember nothing which was not in some way connected with a long series of voluntary privations suffered by his mother for his sake.


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[Assistant] With ill usage and insult and violence and all endured for him.


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[Assistant] Shall I tell you that he, with a reckless disregard of her breaking heart and a sullen, willful forgetfulness of all she had done and borne for him, had linked himself with depraved and abandoned men, and was madly pursuing a headlong career which must bring death to him and shame to her? Alas for human nature.


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[Assistant] To release her from a world of woe and misery and to spare the life of her only child.


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[Assistant] A burst of grief and a violent struggle such as I hope I may never have to witness again succeeded. I knew that her heart was breaking from that hour.


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[Assistant] It was a piteous spectacle to see that woman in the prison yard from day to day.


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[Assistant] But the spirit of resignation and endurance that had so long upheld her was unable to contend against bodily weakness and infirmity. She fell sick.


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[Assistant] She dragged her tottering limbs from the bed to visit her son once more, but her strength failed her and she sunk powerless on the ground.


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[Assistant] And the retribution that fell heavily upon him nearly drove him mad. A day passed away and his mother was not there.


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[Assistant] Another flew by and she came not near him. A third evening arrived and yet he had not seen her and in four and twenty hours he was to be separated from her perhaps forever. Oh.


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[Assistant] The only parent he had ever known lay ill. It might be dying within one mile of the ground he stood on.


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[Assistant] I bore the mother's forgiveness and blessing to her son in prison.


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[Assistant] With pity and compassion the repentant man devised a thousand little plans for her comfort and support when he returned.


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[Assistant] But I knew that many months before he could reach his place of destination, his mother would no longer be of this world. He was removed by night. A few weeks afterwards, the poor woman's soul took its flight, I confidently hope and solemnly believe, to a place of eternal happiness and rest.


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[Assistant] I perform the burial service over her remains. She lies in her little churchyard. There is no stone at her grave's head.


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[Assistant] Her sorrows were known to man, her virtues to God.


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[Assistant] It had been arranged previously to the convict's departure that he should write to his mother as soon as he could obtain permission and that the letter should be addressed to me.


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[Assistant] The father had positively refused to see his son from the moment of his apprehension, and it was a matter of indifference to him whether he lived or died.


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[Assistant] And or the circumstance perhaps may be attributed the fact that though several letters were dispatched, none of them ever reached my hands.


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[Assistant] At the expiration of the term, steadily adhering to his old resolution and the pledge he gave his mother, he made his way back to England.


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[Assistant] Amidst innumerable difficulties and returned on foot to his native place. On a fine Sunday evening in the month of August.


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[Assistant] John Edmonds set foot in the village he had left with shame and disgrace seventeen years before. His nearest way lay through the churchyard. The man's heart swelled as he crossed the stile


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[Assistant] Awaken the associations of his earliest days. He pictured himself as he was then, clinging to his mother's hand and walking peacefully to church.


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[Assistant] He remembered how he used to look up into her pale face and how her eyes would sometimes fill with tears as she gazed upon his features.


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[Assistant] Tears which fell hot upon his forehead as she stooped to kiss him, and made him weep too. Although he little knew then what bitter tears hers were.


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[Assistant] He thought how often he had run merrily down that path with some childish playfellow, looking back every and again to catch his mother's smile or hear her gentle voice.


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[Assistant] And then a veil seemed lifted from his memory and words of kindness unrequited and warnings despised and promises broken thronged upon his recollection.


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[Assistant] Till his heart failed him and he could bear it no longer. He entered the church.


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[Assistant] His steps echoed through the low building with a hollow sound.


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[Assistant] And he almost feared to be alone. It was so still and quiet. He looked round him. Nothing was changed. The place seemed smaller than it used to be.


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[Assistant] But there were the old monuments on which she had gazed with childish awe a thousand times, the little pulpit with its faded cushion.


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[Assistant] The communion table before which she had so often repeated the commandments he reverenced as a child and forgotten as a man. He approached the old seat. It looked cold and desolate.


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[Assistant] The cushion had been removed and the Bible was not there. Perhaps his mother now occupied a poorer seat.


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[Assistant] Or possibly she'd grown infirm and could not reach the church alone. He dared not think of what he feared. A cold feeling crept over him and he trembled violently as he turned away.


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[Assistant] An old man entered the porch just as he reached it. Edmonds started back, for he knew him well.


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[Assistant] Many a time he had watched him digging graves in the churchyard. What would he say to the returned convict?


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[Assistant] And many a doubtful glance he cast on either side to see whether any knew and shunned him. There were strange faces in almost every house.


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[Assistant] In some he recognized the burly form of some old school fellow. A boy, when he last saw him, surrounded by a troop of merry children.


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[Assistant] Whom he only remembered as a hale and hearty labourer, but they had all forgotten him and he passed on unknown.


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[Assistant] The last soft light of the setting sun had fallen on the earth, casting a rich glow on the yellow corn sheaves, and lengthening the shadows of the orchard trees as he stood before the old house, the home of his infancy.


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[Assistant] Through long and weary years of captivity and sorrow. The paling was low.


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[Assistant] Though he well remembered the time when it had seemed a high wall to him, and he looked over into the old garden.


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[Assistant] There were more seeds and gayer flowers than there used to be, but there were the old trees still.


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[Assistant] But they fell strangely upon his ear. He knew them not. They were married too.


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[Assistant] And he well knew that his poor old mother could not be cheerful and he away. The door opened and a group of little children bounded out, shouting and romping.


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[Assistant] The father, with a little boy in his arms, appeared at the door.


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[Assistant] And they crowded round him clapping their tiny hands and dragging him out to join in their joyous sports. The convict thought.


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[Assistant] And heard the harsh word and the hard stripe and his mother's wailing.


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[Assistant] Through the weary perspective of many years and for which he had undergone so much suffering. No face of welcome. No look of forgiveness.


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[Assistant] No house to receive, no hand to help him, and this too in the old village.


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[Assistant] What was his loneliness in the wild thick woods where man was never seen to this?


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[Assistant] He felt that in the distant land of his bondage and infamy,


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[Assistant] He had thought of his native place as it was when he left it, not as it would be when he returned. The sad reality struck coldly at his heart and his spirit sank within him. He had not courage to make inquiries.


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[Assistant] Or to present himself to the only person who was likely to receive him with kindness and compassion. He walked slowly on.


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[Assistant] His garments rustled as he turned round to steal a look at the newcomer, and Edmonds raised his head. The man had moved into a sitting posture.


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[Assistant] His body was much bent and his face was wrinkled and yellow. His dress denoted him an inmate of the workhouse. He had the appearance of being very old.


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[Assistant] But it looked more the effect of dissipation or disease than length of years. He was staring hard at the stranger, and though his eyes were lustless and heavy at first,


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[Assistant] They appeared to glow with an unnatural and alarmed expression after they had been fixed upon him for a short time until they seemed to be starting from their sockets. Edmonds gradually raised himself to his knees


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[Assistant] And looked more and more earnestly upon the old man's face. They gazed upon each other in silence. The old man was ghastly pale. He shuddered and tottered to his feet. Edmonds sprang to his. He stepped back a pace or two. Edmonds advanced. Let me hear you speak, said the convict in a thick, broken voice.


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[Assistant] He rushed wildly forward and clenched the old man by the throat. But he was his father. And his arm fell powerless by his side.


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[Assistant] And he was a dead man before his son could raise him.


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[Assistant] In that corner of the churchyard, said the old gentleman, after a silence of a few moments, in that corner of the churchyard of which I have spoken,


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[Assistant] There lies buried a man who was in my employment for three years after this event, and who was truly contrite, penitent, and humbled if ever man was,


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[Assistant] A disagreeable interruption and an unpleasant encounter.


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[Assistant] It was therefore with more than ordinary pleasure that he rose to greet them when they again entered, and with more than ordinary interest that he inquired what had occurred to detain them from his society.


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[Assistant] In reply to his questions on this point, Mr. Snodgrass was about to offer an historical account of the circumstances just now detailed when he was suddenly checked by observing that there were present not only Mr. Topman and their stagecoach companion of the preceding day


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[Assistant] It was a care-worn looking man whose sallow face and deeply sunken eyes were rendered still more striking than nature had made them by the straight black hair which hung in matted disorder halfway down his face.


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[Assistant] His eyes were almost unnaturally bright and piercing, his cheekbones were high and prominent, and his jaws were so long and lank that an observer would have supposed that he was drawing the flesh of his face in for a moment by some contraction of the muscles.


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[Assistant] His upper garment was a long black sirtu and below it he wore wide drab trousers and large boots running rapidly to seed.


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[Assistant] And it was towards him that Mr. Pickwick extended his hand when he said,


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[Assistant] And calling for brandy and water in imitation of the remainder of the company seated themselves at the table. NASA.


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[Assistant] And turning to Mr. Snodgrass, who had just taken out his notebook, said in a hollow voice, perfectly in keeping with his outward man, Are you the poet? I...


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[Assistant] Will you make another glass before you begin, sir? said Mr. Pickwick. The dismal man took the hint.


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[Assistant] And having mixed a glass of brandy and water and slowly swallowed half of it, opened the row of paper and proceeded partly to read and partly to relate the following incident, which we find recorded on the transactions of the club as The Stroller's Tale. The Stroller's Tale.


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[Assistant] In the back room of which lay the object of my search. A wretched looking woman, the man's wife.


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[Assistant] He started up and stared eagerly at my face.


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[Assistant] Mr. Hutley, John, said his wife, Mr. Hutley, that you've sent for tonight, you know. Ah, said the invalid, passing his hand across his forehead. Hutley, Hutley, let me see. He seemed endeavouring to collect his thoughts for a few seconds, and then, grasping me tightly by the wrist, said,


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[Assistant] Don't leave me. Don't leave me, old fellow. She'll murder me. I know she will. Has he been long so?


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[Assistant] He stared wildly at her with a look of deadly apprehension, and then whispered in my ear, I beat her jam.


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[Assistant] Would have sufficiently explained the real state of the case. You had better stand aside.


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[Assistant] Said I to the poor creature, you can do him no good. Perhaps he will be calmer if he does not see you.


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[Assistant] He drew me closer to him, as he said in a deep, alarmed whisper, Jem.


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[Assistant] And the public house were the chief themes of the wretched man's wanderings. It was evening he fancied.


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[Assistant] Mr. Pickwick had replaced on the table the glass which, during the last few sentences of the tale, he had retained in his hand.


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[Assistant] And had just made up his mind to speak. Indeed, we have the authority of Mr. Snodgrass' notebook for snating that he had actually opened his mouth when the waiter entered the room and said, some gentleman, sir.


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[Assistant] It has been conjectured that Mr. Pickwick was on the point of delivering some remarks which would have enlightened the world, if not the Thames.


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[Assistant] And that person too, if I'm not mistaken, said the doctor, bestowing a scrutinizing glance on the green-coated stranger.


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[Assistant] I think I gave that person a very pressing invitation last night, which he thought preferred to decline, saying which the doctor scowled magnanimously on the stranger and whispered his friend, Lieutenant Tappleton. You don't say so.


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[Assistant] Do be quiet, pain, interposed the lieutenant.


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[Assistant] Will you allow me to ask you, sir? He said, addressing Mr. Pickwig, who is considerably mystified by this very unpolite by-play. Will you allow me to ask you, sir, whether that person belongs to your party?


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[Assistant] Said the lieutenant inquiringly. Certainly not, replied Mr Pickwick. And never wears your club button, said the lieutenant. No, never, replied the astonished Mr Pickwick.


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[Assistant] Said the doctor, suddenly addressing Mr. Tupman, in a tone which made that gentleman start, as perceptibly as if a pin had been cunningly inserted in the calf of his leg, You were at the ball here last night.


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[Assistant] Looking very hard at Mr. Pickwick all the while. That person was your companion. Said the doctor, pointing to the still unmoved stranger. Mr. Tupman admitted the fact.


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[Assistant] He was apparently about to proceed to do so when Lieutenant Tappleton, who had been eyeing him with great curiosity, said with considerable scorn, haven't I seen you at the theatre, sir? Certainly, replied the unabashed stranger. He's a strolling actor.


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[Assistant] So the lieutenant contemptuously, turning to Dr. Slammer, he acts in the piece that the officers of the 52nd get up at the Rochester theater tomorrow night.


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[Assistant] Having concluded the speech, and uttered the last three words in a loud key, he stalked majestically after his friend, closely followed by Dr. Slammer, who said nothing, but contended himself by withering the company with a look.


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[Assistant] Having previously tested the virtues of a bumper which had been mixed by the dismal man, the stranger applied the glass to Mr. Pickwick's mouth, and the remainder of its contents rapidly disappeared. There was a short pause. The brandy and water had done its work.


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[Assistant] The amiable countenance of Mr. Pickwick was fast recovering its customary expression. They are not worth your notice, said the dismal man. You're right, sir, replied Mr. Pickwick. They are not.


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[Assistant] I'm ashamed to have been betrayed into this warmth of feeling. Draw your chair up to the table, sir. The dismal man readily complied. A circle was again formed round the table, and harmony once more prevailed.


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[Assistant] I'm very tired now. We can speak later.


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[Assistant] And I could hear in his voice that he was resisting the urge to strangle me. Strangely, I get this a lot from adults.


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[Assistant] There are extremist groups in Egypt that object to Egyptian artifacts being kept in other countries' museums. These people might have approached your father.


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[Assistant] Perhaps in his state, your father became an easy target for them.


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[Assistant] I refuse to believe dad was dead. No, no, no. And a terrorist? Please. Why did adults have to be so thick? They always say tell the truth and when you do they don't believe you. What's the point? I stared down at the dark street.


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[Assistant] Suddenly that cold, tingly feeling got worse than ever. I focused on the dead tree where I'd met Dad earlier.


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[Assistant] Standing there now, in the dim light of a street lamp, looking up at me, was the pudgy bloke in the black trench coat and the round glasses and the fedora, the man Dad had called Amos.


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[Assistant] I suppose I should have felt threatened by an odd man staring up at me in the dark of night, but his expression was full of concern, and he looked so familiar, it was driving me mad that I couldn't remember why. Behind me, the inspector cleared his throat. Sadie?


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[Assistant] No one blames you for the attack on the museum.


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[Assistant] We understand you were dragged into this against your will. I turned from the window


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[Assistant] Against my will, I changed the curator in his office. The inspector's eyebrows started to creep up again. Be that as it may.


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[Assistant] Surely you didn't understand what your father meant to do. Possibly your brother was involved? I snorted. Carter, please!


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[Assistant] So, you are determined to protect him as well. You consider him a proper brother, do you? I couldn't believe it. I wanted to smack his face.


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[Assistant] What's that supposed to mean? Because he doesn't look like me? The Inspector blinked.


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[Assistant] As much as Carter annoyed me, I hated it when people assumed we weren't related, or looked at my father as scouts when he said the three of us were a family, like we'd done something wrong.


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[Assistant] Stupid Dr. Martin at the museum. Inspector Williams, it happened every time Dad and Carter and I were together. Every bloody time. I'm sorry Sadie, the inspector said.


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[Assistant] It will go much easier for everyone if you cooperate.


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[Assistant] Any information, anything your father said, people he might have mentioned. Amos, I blurted out just to see his reaction. He met a man named Amos. Inspector Williams sighed.


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[Assistant] Sadie, he couldn't have done. Surely you know that.


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[Assistant] We spoke with Amos not one hour ago on the phone from his home in New York. He isn't in New York, I insisted. He's right. I glanced out the window and Amos was gone. Bloody typical. That's not possible, I said. Exactly, the inspector said.


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[Assistant] We've already had the truth from Carter. I didn't want to upset you, but he told us everything.


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[Assistant] He understands there's no point protecting your father now. You might as well help us, and there will be no charges against you.


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[Assistant] Carter would never say a word against Dad, and neither will I.


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[Assistant] The inspector didn't even have the decency to look embarrassed. He crossed his arms. I'm sorry you feel that way, Sadie. I'm afraid it's time we went downstairs.


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[Assistant] To discuss consequences with your grandparents.


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[Assistant] Very cozy, with the Christmas garlands round the fireplace and a nice pot of tea and a detective from Scotland Yard ready to arrest you.


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[Assistant] I wondered why the police had let him keep it. It should have been evidence or something, but the inspector didn't seem to notice it at all.


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[Assistant] Carter looked awful. I mean, even worse than usual. Honestly, the boy had never been in a proper school, and he dressed like a junior professor with his khaki trousers and button-down shirt and loafers.


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[Assistant] He's not bad looking, I suppose. He's reasonably tall and fit, and his hair isn't hopeless. He's got dad's eyes, and my mates Liz and Emma have even told me from his picture that he's hot, which I must take with a grain of salt, because A, he's my brother, and B, my mates are a bit crazed.


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[Assistant] When it came to clothes, Carter wouldn't have known hot if it bit him on the bum.


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[Assistant] Oh, don't look at me like that, Carter. You know it's true. At any rate, I shouldn't have been too hard on him.


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[Assistant] He was taking Dad's disappearance even worse than I was.


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[Assistant] Gran and Gramp sat on either side of him, looking quite nervous.


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[Assistant] The pot of tea and a plate of biscuits sat on the table, but no one was having any.


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[Assistant] Chief Inspector Williams ordered me into the only free chair. Then he paced in front of the fireplace, importantly.


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[Assistant] Two more police stood by the front door, the woman from earlier and a big bloke who kept eyeing the biscuits. Mr. and Mrs. Fast, Inspector Williams said.


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[Assistant] Gran is frail and colourless, like a stick person, really, while Mum in the photos always looked so happy and full of life. They're just children, she managed. Surely you can't blame them. Pah! Gramps said.


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[Assistant] This is ridiculous, Inspector. They are responsible. Gramps is a former rugby player.


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[Assistant] He has beefy arms, a belly much too big for his shirt, and eyes sunk deep in his face as if someone had punched them. Well.


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[Assistant] Actually dad had punched them years ago, but that's another story.


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[Assistant] Gramps is quite scary looking. Usually people got out of his way, but Inspector Williams didn't seem impressed.


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[Assistant] Mr. Fairst, he said, what do you imagine the morning headlines will read?


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[Assistant] British Museum attacked, Rosetta Stone destroyed.


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[Assistant] Your son-in-law, former son-in-law, Gramps corrected, was most likely vaporized in the explosion or he ran off, in which case he didn't run off, I shouted.


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[Assistant] We need to know where he is, the inspector continued, and the only witness is your grandchildren refuse to tell me the truth.


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[Assistant] We did tell you the truth, Kata said. Dad isn't dead, he sank through the floor.


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[Assistant] Inspector Williams glanced at Gramps as if to say, there you see. Then he turned to Carter. Young man, you're


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[Assistant] Fake pictures too, huh? But of course, I have to show my ignorance somehow. You make any money doing that? Money? What is that?


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[Assistant] I'm just trying to explain something to my impetuous young friend. Aloni. Okay, then.


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[Assistant] Nothing personal. You tell him, hopefully I just like to shoot off my mouth. Maybe you two will get on better.


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[Assistant] So as we all know, it is totally up to the individuals what alternatives they choose.


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[Assistant] But achieving success in work and getting more income through spending more time at work won't harm you.


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[Assistant] For some evenings, working is much better than sitting in pubs.


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[Assistant] Because you do not poison yourself with cigarette smoke and alcohol.


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[Assistant] We live in very difficult times when money is a very important thing.


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[Assistant] If I had to choose between a high paying job with long hours and a lower paying job with shorter hours, I would probably choose the first one. There are some reasons for that.


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[Assistant] First of all, if I have more money, I can allow myself not to work for some days or weeks or even months when I decide I can stop working and spend time with my family. But if I don't have money,


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[Assistant] When somebody doesn't have enough money, he feels very unhappy.


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[Assistant] He doesn't find any reason to live anymore or to do anything. He cannot afford to go on a holiday.


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[Assistant] Such people are usually lonely and disappointed.


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[Assistant] Very often when people don't have money, they want to kill themselves.


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[Assistant] One more thing is that when you have money, you can give your children a good education and future. You can help your parents if they need some money.


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[Assistant] Although having enough money is not the most important thing, it is better than being poor.


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[Assistant] Because when people are poor, they don't have a desire to live anymore.


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[Assistant] Hare Krishna, Gopal Hari Prabhu. Welcome to the Monks Podcast. Thank you.


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[Assistant] You know, we have been together on the Shastric Advisory Council and even before that, uh, I, I have heard about you.


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[Assistant] I think after I heard about Radhikaaramanpur, then I came to know about you also.


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[Assistant] The problem of suffering, the problem of evil as it is called in the West, that's a universal problem. And initially the explanation of Karma seemed very reasonable for me. But over the years, from being more of a, you could call a podium speaker to more of a human counselor or a human mentor, I realized that Karma is not really


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[Assistant] But then I realized that it's especially when we are dealing with people at a one to one level and they are in distress.


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[Assistant] It's very insensitive. It's often quite unhelpful. It's unhelpful to them and it can alienate us from others.


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[Assistant] So I started looking at scripture and then I noticed that well there is we could say philosophy.


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[Assistant] Where we discuss about where the principle of Karma is implicit in the scripture. I don't think it is explicitly analyzed and described in any one section. It is implicit in various places, but it is practically never used to address people who are suffering directly. The person who is suffering may say, I must have done some Karma because of which this is happening to me. But others don't do that.


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[Assistant] So whether we consider when Abhimanyu is killed, at that time what Krishna says to Arjuna or whether we consider many other situations, uh, in scripture


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[Assistant] Now, in times of such immense suffering, talks of Karma, talking about Karma makes no sense. So he says, what our wisdom offers us is that the soul is indestructible. And I am paraphrasing his words now.


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[Assistant] Uh, so he said that beyond all the destructiveness of this world, the soul


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[Assistant] It was a very, I felt a very sympathetic way of looking at things. Very useful and compassionate way.


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[Assistant] And then I read you an article, I think it was in the book Bhagwat, which I think Radhika Raman Prabhu and Krishna Khedram are edited.


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[Assistant] Your title is, Bhagavatam's philosophy is Theodicy Beyond Karma.


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[Assistant] So the way you analyze primarily, I think Bhishma's pastime.


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[Assistant] Uh, and the ex- or Bheeshma's con- discussion with Yudhishthir and how he analysed the race expression was very striking.


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[Assistant] You demonstrated through your analysis of that pastime.


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[Assistant] So uhm, for satisfying and strengthening ourselves when we are going through difficulties.


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[Assistant] Helping others in a way that is compassionate and doesn't come off as either dismissive or judgmental.


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[Assistant] No, but still how does the allowing free will lead to suffering or what is the relationship between the two?


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[Assistant] I think you started by saying that there are different aspects, different, different problems of we will also different access aspects, the problem of we will. So I think what you are saying is if we have say a group of people, say two people, let's put it A and B.


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[Assistant] So now even for A and B or for A with God and B with God, to experience love they have to have free will. But if in the course of free will, A might betray B or B might betray A and that could lead to suffering.


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[Assistant] So this can explain, this explains not so much that we are the cause of our suffering, as so much that suffering is inherent in the very existence of free will.


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[Assistant] If A suffers something, maybe it's because B misused their free will and that's why B betrayed A.


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[Assistant] More we could say in the nature of the world itself that there is the possibility of suffering.


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[Assistant] Rather than the responsibility of suffering being placed on the individual who is going through that suffering.


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[Assistant] When she talks about, and I think it is 1828.


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[Assistant] That it is because of illusion and misconception among people that the conflicts arise and distress comes from there off. You are equal to everyone and you are the lord of everything.


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[Assistant] But you are impartial, but it is because of the interactions between people that distresses come up.


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[Assistant] It, it might be something similar, although I don't think it's exactly the same. But, uh, yeaah. So, you can respond to that.


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[Assistant] Uh, it could be put another way. I would like to go into this classification of.


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[Assistant] Is as you said, it is the most plausible explanation or we could say another way of putting it is that it is the least implausible explanation.


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[Assistant] There is, it's a very difficult problem to address and, uh,


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[Assistant] Yeah, can you explain the other aspects of the other evidential aspect and the phenomenological?


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[Assistant] If the universe is always existing as it is, then it's much easier to deny the need or the existence of a organizer or a beginner at all.


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[Assistant] I think much of Buddhist philosophy is that the cosmos itself is at one level eternal. Our entanglement is not but the cosmos is.


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[Assistant] Eventually when the, at least the mainstream scientific community accepted the Big Bang Theory and supportive evidence for that, then I think Stephen Hawking was the first to propose that it's not just linear, it's cyclic.


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[Assistant] That means he said that there's a big bang and there's a big crunch and big bang and a big crunch. And of course there are others who talk about space time as...


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[Assistant] So in that sense, just saying that things are beginning less, does that really address the problem? So that would mean that God is, uh, has permanently placed some souls in this cycle and maybe there are some souls who are never placed in this cycle.


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[Assistant] So when we talk about it, about Karma being beginningless.


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[Assistant] That means it's more a talk of that we can go from this reality to that reality.


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[Assistant] It doesn't really address how we came in this reality in the first place. It just says that this is where we are and this is where we have been.


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[Assistant] So you are saying that if it goes backward forever, then it will go forward also forever. Exactly, yes. Forward if it's going to end, then in the backward also should be ending then. Backward also, okay.


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[Assistant] Sorry, when you talk about two categories, I thought of them as matter and spirit, but you are talking about Sat and Asat. So then are we considering suffering


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[Assistant] As an ontological reality apart from the psychological experience of suffering. So suffering as a tangible reality because if you, what is that, 13-21, I think, kare karna kartruthve hetu prakritruchute, purushaha sukha dukhana bhoktruthve hetruchute. So Krishna says that


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[Assistant] But pleasure and pain are experienced because of the soul's desire to enjoy this world.


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[Assistant] There is a lot of animated discussion on this topic of how a soul might turn away from God and whether it exactly happens or not and that could be a separate discussion itself.


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[Assistant] Everything that we experience has to have some basis in reality.


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[Assistant] Yeah, there has to be some reality which we may experience in a distorted way.


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[Assistant] Also I think the example of reflection in the 15th chapter, upside down tree.


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[Assistant] The characters have either emotions similar to humans.


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[Assistant] The characters may have some bodily forms and abilities separate from us. So unless there is something similar


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[Assistant] You know, when I read the Govinda Bhashya, Baldi with the Abhoshans, there's a very striking section where he talks about dreams.


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[Assistant] That actually this world is like a dream. I am paraphrasing again. And because this world is real, therefore dreams are also real. And that's why we can experience


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[Assistant] So in some ways, the task of intelligence is actually to separate


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[Assistant] The real from the unreal in our lived experience whether it is conscious,


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[Assistant] Of course we don't analyze dreams so much, but in some ways the process of bhakti is also we utilize this word like the hamsa, take the milk and reject the water.


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[Assistant] I think this is quite a misconception about Hindu thought in general.


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[Assistant] Book on the problem of evil that was written after the tsunami and there were different perspectives given by different religions and I found the Hindu perspective


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[Assistant] I was looking forward to how they would present it. It was very, you could say, annoyingly simplistic. This is what the Hindus say, ultimately the world is a dream. So our pleasure and pain, it's all a dream. And then you wake up, you realize there is no pleasure, no pain.


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[Assistant] What, what Hindu thought or Vedic thought or whatever name we use.


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[Assistant] That's not at all a fair representation, isn't it?


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[Assistant] Yeah, that's true. And what you said exactly that even if I understand it's a dream.


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[Assistant] Now from a dream, somebody can just throw some water on my face and wake me up. But I can't be woken up from that dream like that.


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[Assistant] Systematic, sustained often prolonged process required for waking up.


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[Assistant] And during that process still I have to deal with the problems of life.


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[Assistant] And then I think further also another problem remains is, if it's all a dream, then why do some people have worse dreams than others? Isn't it?


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[Assistant] So going back to this point about eternal, I have seen that some Christians, they define eternal only as forward.


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[Assistant] A straight Christian idea, a French Christian idea.


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[Assistant] But I have seen many mainstream dictionaries also define the word eternal as as forever from now.


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[Assistant] Okay, you know sometimes these kind of discussions, it is, often explanations raise more questions than they answer.


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[Assistant] So then that's, I think that's the very second verse, second or third verse that is in his, that Yatadharmasuto Raja. So he's talking about in the Gada Paneer, he's talking about how from the point of view of virtue, from the point of view of ability and from the point of view of devotion, in terms of ability they had Arjuna and Bhima with them.


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[Assistant] Parishad Maharaj offers that explanation or offers that as one option and the bull doesn't accept that. The bull says the cause of suffering is very difficult to ascertain.


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[Assistant] Seems quite similar to the story of Job in the Old Testament. Basically God, this Job is suffering enormously and when he asks, why am I suffering?


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[Assistant] So in some ways the Avanti Brahman pastime is somewhat similar, but there he is talking more in terms of the mind, mind's perception that is causing the suffering. But so if you compare that, that there is a, there is a plan of the Lord. So then that means something


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[Assistant] It does not necessarily mean that God is causing the suffering. So I sometimes differentiate between the terms cause and purpose. That cause, there can be many causes for a particular thing to happen.


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[Assistant] But cause is where something comes from, purpose is where something takes us.


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[Assistant] So I think that does our philosophy actually specifically say that God is the cause of our suffering or when you say it's a plan.


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[Assistant] When you put it this way, I was thinking of something, an example came to my mind about again the evidential problem of evil. Say if somebody is sick,


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[Assistant] And some sick, if you just take from the perspective of this lifetime, that sometimes some people may have gotten to some indulgences and those indulgences cause them suffering.


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[Assistant] So now somebody drinks and they get liver problems. Now we cannot really correlate on


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[Assistant] Maybe if it's something, something cancer, the treatment itself is painful.


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[Assistant] Chemotherapy or radiotherapy, but the point is


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[Assistant] At one level we want to address the cause of suffering so that we don't do anything to repeat it. In that, at that level you want to understand it, but it's not so much.


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[Assistant] It's not so much a precise correlation in quantity. Now how much somebody indulge, it could be that somebody smokes a lot.


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[Assistant] And they don't get cancer or their cancer is detected very early and they are saved. Somebody smokes a little but their cancer gets detected very late and they suffer terribly. But the important thing is okay, there is a cure available.


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[Assistant] More important than the treatment, the treatment is the plan of the Lord. Especially why you got the disease.


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[Assistant] Reach God, that is not the mainstream Christian theology, but I think it is.


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[Assistant] Quite a number of influential theologians are talking about it. Isn't it?


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[Assistant] That makes a lot of sense. One thing struck me is that there seems to be a lot of serious intellectual engagement with the problem of evil.


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[Assistant] In the western world as compared to within the dharmic traditions as of now in the contemporary times.


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[Assistant] And how to do that is more important than analyzing the comparative levels of distress of different people and trying to address that.


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[Assistant] The universal evils of birth, old age, disease and death.


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[Assistant] Not the time when they appear or the severity with which they appear.


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[Assistant] Also, the idea that the world is a place of distress,


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[Assistant] At one level, even in the Old Testament, there are a statement like this, this world is a whale of tears. But it doesn't seem to be that prominent a teaching over there.


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[Assistant] Or is it that that emphasis was lost because of, say, the renaissance, scientific revolution and the progress?


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[Assistant] Because I remember several, I read books by several, by Srila Prabhupada disciples as well as other westerners who have sought wisdom from the East.


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[Assistant] So, is that a prominent teaching in Christian theology?


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[Assistant] So then it might also be because of, uh,


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[Assistant] The overall protestant work ethos on which America was founded


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[Assistant] Where there is the idea that you can have the great American dream.


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[Assistant] And now there's of course the growth from that prosperity gospel.


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[Assistant] Which is often panned by even mainstream Christians.


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[Assistant] So the idea that by worshipping God we can have a happy life in this world, we could say that it is, okay, you could say that you


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[Assistant] By worshipping God you might be happier than what you would be otherwise. But that doesn't necessarily mean that you will be happy. It's like say somebody is sick and you are taking treatment.


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[Assistant] But when you're taking treatment, it's likely that you may be in less pain. Although sometimes the treatment itself may also cause pain. So in the sense,


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[Assistant] Between one's righteousness and one's state of happiness or distress in the world.


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[Assistant] In this is, maybe I would like to take this in a slightly different direction. We can come back.


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[Assistant] To our direction, our main discussion later.


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[Assistant] See in the west mindfulness has become quite common and mindfulness is often associated with Buddhism but much of mindfulness


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[Assistant] Doesn't really address the problem of evil. It is not so much philosophical as it is pragmatic. And there it does say that if you can just shift your consciousness to various things, to the values that you want to live by, to the purposes that you want to achieve. So shift your consciousness elsewhere and the magnitude of suffering will decrease. So in that sense, what you said is that


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[Assistant] By staying focused on a purpose, then the present experience of suffering will become more bearable.


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[Assistant] The thought of a future recovery makes that pain bearable. But if there is no hope for recovery, there is just an unclear prognosis.


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[Assistant] Then it becomes, then the pain of the present at the physical level becomes multiplied by the hopelessness at the mental level.


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[Assistant] Then that consumes our thinking and it's not available so much for, for higher thoughts.


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[Assistant] I don't think that Madhyamaarga or something like that, I don't think there is any Sanskrit word which yukta is there and the Bhagavita uses the word yukta.


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[Assistant] But there is not, there is no mention of it as a way within our tradition, isn't it? From what I have seen.


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[Assistant] Now, you know, going back to the Bhagavatam and the problem of evil that there's no serious discussion or like no sustained serious discussion directly. It's more through narratives. So one way I phrase it is that the Bhagavatam doesn't so much address the problem. The question, why do bad things happen to good people? It reframes the question that when bad things happen to good people, what do good people do?


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[Assistant] And the whole Bhagavatam, in fact even the Rama and the Mahabharata to some extent, there are examples of


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[Assistant] A virtuous responses to adversities.


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[Assistant] That's very interesting from a psychological perspective. I was reading a recent book on


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[Assistant] On cancel culture and the whole idea of creating safe spaces.


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[Assistant] And this was not something which was maybe there 50 years ago or 100 years ago. So then apparently they did some survey that


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[Assistant] Assuming that our child might have peanut allergy and avoiding exposure right from the beginning. If the children are given peanuts right from their, as soon as they can start eating.


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[Assistant] Then 5-10 years down the line, the chances of them having peanut allergies are much lesser.


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[Assistant] Which is quite interesting. So the theme of that was sometimes like over protection can be under protection. So you're saying that I like the idea of devotional heroism that


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[Assistant] Not only face that suffering, but we can grow through it. We can contribute in the world and some ways the question why is sometimes, uh,


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[Assistant] We could say that, yeaah, problem of karma, karma or the Lord's plan, both are reasonable answers. But precisely why am I going through this right now, in this particular way? This is difficult, but if we shift, you know, how can I serve in this situation or how can I act in a,


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[Assistant] So if I understand right, when you're saying phenomenological, it's something like experiential.


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[Assistant] It's a very personal, personalized application of the philosophy because different people will experience the suffering differently.


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[Assistant] That we cannot just have a one-size-fits-all formula for people who are in distress and how to guide them or how to help them.


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[Assistant] It is also, like earlier I talked about Kami is solved, it has to be resolved.


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[Assistant] Beautiful and in fact, uh, when he actually attains the Lord,


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[Assistant] He loses that tendency to get even or get back at them. He becomes purified of that also. This is an excellent metaphor of suffering being like gold being subjected to fire and impurities coming out. Yeah.


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[Assistant] You know, it's also struck me when you talk about Dhruva's story, the first thought that had come in my mind was how he was dishonoured. But then, dishonour is a very generic label to describe that situation.


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[Assistant] Maybe learning to see the Bhagavatam in fresh light so that we can see how its situations also relate with and reflect our situations. And then we can draw some lessons from there for ourselves.


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[Assistant] Yeaah, so that it gives I think examples of, uh, of her pa, Brahmaji and I think Ma, and Manu also before talking about that. Uh, Suryati gives those examples. So taking this point forward,


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[Assistant] Now don't get too caught in why something is happening in terms of the cause, where it is coming from, but focus on where it is going to take you.


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[Assistant] Chitraketu has his son Harshashoka pass away and the sages come to him.


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[Assistant] Karma is not always the appropriate explanation when somebody is going through suffering.


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[Assistant] So it is definitely not contextually appropriate at certain times.


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[Assistant] And it is also not always adequate to explain everything about suffering. I like your difference, even logical and the logical aspect we can explain, but the evidence, the aspect we really can't, why so much suffering?


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[Assistant] Telling people that they are suffering because of their own misdeeds is seen as strong speaking.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It doesn't depend on how strongly we speak, it is, strong speaking has to be judged by how strongly the other person feels inspired to turn toward Krishna. So, so would you like to talk something about that, because you brought up the topic of sensitivity over here.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] No, I appreciate that point definitely. Hitler is a very extreme situation as well as


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The idea of confronting one's problems or confronting one's wrongdoings.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But there is in the Christian tradition or the Catholic tradition, there is the idea of confession which has fallen into


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Some bad rep, disrepute because of it being abused, abused at times, but that is also one way of coming face to face with, with our worst side or with our dark side. And then that in a sense helps us to.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Both recognize how far we have gone down and then it also can, if it is done in a positive encouraging context, it also gives us impetus to turn on the right track. And so I agree again, so going back to this point of sensitivity, so both places, as you said, you know, being, being strong and being gentle is basically what will be effective at that time.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So have you found, uh, going back to the earlier point.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Karma is, have you seen any section in scripture where somebody is suffering and they are told, you are suffering your own karma. Directly like that.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You know, even if you look at the Dhrishtra or Chitraketu, it's more that you are attached so you are suffering. So you are ignorant, you are an illusion so you are suffering. Now give up your illusion, give up your attachment. So it's more, I would say it's more of a phenomenological approach.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Maybe they may not have to go through that much suffering and if somebody doesn't learn, they may have to go through more suffering also. So in that sense, it's not so much.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It is not, because it places the, especially I think if we combine karma with the idea of loving God, who has a plan for our life, then it can become very, very empowering. I am going through this, but there is something for me to learn and grow.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Do you want to respond to what I said or I have a couple of other points to discuss?