[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So we have to like acknowledge some things that we wish were not true and just say, okay, this is the way the world is. The way the world is is criticizing peers is uncomfortable. Um, reputation is the currency of academia. People want to look like good researchers. Um, some important criticisms don't really help that reputation. They're not deep. They're just, hey, I might have found this error.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, so people need some kind of other incentive to act.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And understanding somebody else's data is not straightforward. So it's not so easy as saying, hey I found this error, I want to post it publicly. Sometimes you often need to do some communication. So the idea I have is for a kind of communication system where you could imagine


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] People who find issues in published research or think they found issues can talk to the authors and try to figure out, uhm, okay, is there an issue in this study? And here's what I have in mind.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Imagine that you read a paper and you say, you know, I worry that, or you say, I downloaded the replication data and there's these other outcomes that they don't discuss in the paper that make the results look less good. And so I'm sort of worried that


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Maybe the results are not as strong as the published record indicates and that the public would think if they read it.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] What you could do is send an email to the author through this system. They would say, hey, a person, anonymous at the beginning of the conversation, a person has a question for you. And you could sort of communicate back and forth in a way that is confidential. So the conversation, just like in the bug bounty case, is not being public. Uhm, you're talking privately, but the identity of the critic is shielded.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So that way, if in the worst possible case, there's no way the critic, the author could kind of exert retribution. We have no idea who the critic is. Uhm, then two things can happen.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Either the critic could say, okay, now, back and forth, you're hemming and hawing, I think I've actually found something, I'm at the point now where I'm willing to go public and say,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Here's this conversation that now is going to be retroactively public, everybody can read, and I'm willing to attach my name to it and say,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I think I found this issue, everybody, I think it's, you know, if you're interested in this paper, it's worthwhile to read this email exchange we had, and that this third party can verify we had. The author can also say, this is malarkey, I'm tired of being harassed by this person, whatever else.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Some people have said, uhm, they don't want to be anonymous. You could also say, hey, here's who I am, by the way, if you wanted.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So the idea here is that what the technology would do, uhm, is provide a third party that could verify that a conversation happened, uhm, while also shielding the identity of, of the critic unless the critic wants it to be open. But then verify that it in fact was that person. That means that we have no anonymous public criticism.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That means that we can figure out the details before going public. So you can actually say, hey, what about this? What about that? And kind of get the facts that you often need to get in these cases.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Or the authors can also own up and say, oh yea, you're right. Which I think a lot of people would do.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And then someone can say, oh, here's the kind of person we should kind of accrue some reputational rewards to this person. It was really good that they were careful, and went through the published record, found this issue, and let us all know about it, and we can now attach that to your name, and kind of give you, uhm, those rewards. Yeaah.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Only the author could decide, okay, basically the, the critic knows that the author can't forcibly reveal their identity, so if I email you an issue with your paper, you can't say, who is this, and like, and shame me, or whatever else, but you could decide, okay, I think this is a meritless accusation, or you could even decide, oh, uhm,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You know, I think this is, uh, you know, many people might have this question about my paper, but I think it checks out. So I'm willing to, you know, have this out there so people know.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, but that's the idea, yes. The author can never kind of forcibly reveal the critic, but the critic can't just anonymously publicly say, uhm, here are these issues. That's the idea. And the goals here


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Are to sort of increase the incentives for reporting flaws. Uhm, there's probably some optimal level of how much of this there goes on. We don't want every paper dealing with this all day every day, but I would say probably based on the fact that majority of what we do is not true means that we're not doing enough of this right now. So we need more incentives for doing that.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, on the other hand, we want to protect innocent researchers from kind of incorrect or, uhm, anonymous accusations.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And then also increase the public accessibility, uhm, of this knowledge. So, it's not just the kind of thing where you get to graduate school and, as I did,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You hear in your first year seminars, oh, everybody knows that paper doesn't actually work.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, this is actually something that those who don't attend elite graduate programs could know about.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And, and the idea for kind of the indirect effect is, if you're an author thinking of doing one of these things, you're gonna say,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Oh man, that system's out there and might catch me one day. Uhm, and it also kind of increases the value of those transparency tools. So now all of a sudden all that replication data that's been posted that people have gone through the effort to post becomes a lot more valuable if we know that there's a system for actually vetting it.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So uhm, we're in Silicon Valley, obviously, so uhm, every, uh, every, uh, idea needs to be solved by, uhm, a beta piece of software, uhm, and so obviously that's what it here, uhm, here it is that I'm here to do, uhm, is not just to get your comments that I'm really interested in, uhm, but, uh, also, uhm, try to, uh, solicit your help,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So, this is something where when I talk to a lot of people in social science, they say,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, I need some way to do this and this would provide me kind of an institution, a legitimized way to express the concerns that I have. So there's a lot of demand out there for something like this right now.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, I'm sure that the ideas I have are not perfect and you all have a lot more experience thinking about.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, how it is that people kind of interact with systems like this, the incentives there, so I'm very interested to hear your comments. Uhm, but you also have the expertise to actually think about how to build something like this. And so, part of what I'm here to say is that, uhm, if you're interested in that, you should come talk to me about it, because uhm, we have money and are ready to actually pay somebody to build this thing, and the idea would be to beta test it.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] To basically, uhm, uh, start with a class, start with a couple classes and say, let's work out the kinks, let's see if this is actually a terrible idea, let's see if it's abused, let's see what happens, uhm, if this actually produces useful results or not, uhm, and that's where we kind of want to start. So part of why I'm here today is to get your comments and part of it is to recruit you, uhm, so, uh, uh, that's where we are. And I'm sure there's lots of, uh, questions.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Suppose that you're a dishonest author and you get one of these emails saying, hey, this anonymous person says they looked at your data set and they feel like your findings are not actually all that robust. One thing you could do is say, alright, I'm just gonna not respond. Uhm.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I think then the idea is what the critic could do is say, hey, will you respond? Hey, will you respond? And eventually say, okay, it's been six months since I originally wrote to you.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You haven't responded. At this point, I'm gonna basically take your silence as an admission of guilt or something like that. And the critic could basically say, even if the author doesn't agree, the critic has the option in the second row of saying, look, I'm pushing this conversation public. This is at the point where I feel like other people should know you're not responding to this.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And so knowing that that might happen, the idea is that the author would say, well, I don't want to be kind of shown as one of these people who like never responds to questions about their research, so I'm going to respond.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, so that's the idea is it kind of uses the fact that in academia there's this like social pressure uhm, to kind of defend your work and comply with norms and be honest to say, okay, everybody else is gonna watch the fact that I'm not responding and kind of judge me negatively, that's gonna kind of compel me to do it.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So the idea is to kind of leverage that, leverage that social pressure that would happen. Uhm, there is then the question of like the false positive of what if someone, like there are in fact many academics who are just so busy. And so I think one thing you could do for example like


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Imagine if like, so I'm uhm, you know, going this weekend up to Point Reyes, then I'm flying to Denver on Monday. If someone said, you know, I want an answer immediately, I think I would just respond on the system and say like, I'm busy, the question you have is gonna take me some time to look into.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] No, it's a good question or not. You know, give me a couple months. And I think this is the kind of thing where as the kind of administrators of the system, we don't have to kind of decide what the norm should be. Uhm, I think leave it in the hands of people to say,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You know, if all of a sudden some critic says, that's not good enough, you know, screw you David, like you didn't respond in 24 hours with a full data file, uhm, then I think I would say, you know, I'm pretty sure anybody reading this is going to think that I acted reasonably. And like here's why. And you know, give me a few weeks.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, so I think the idea is to say, you know, all this is, is kind of the very, very like basic kind of tools of kind of an audited conversation and the option for, you know, private anonymity. Uhm, and then the social norms can kind of build around that where people can figure out, uhm, okay, well, what's, what is kind of a reasonable use of, use of this or, or not?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Not that like valid criticism can't come from not.edu domains, but that would kind of give you some signal. Another would be that people could, you know, there'd probably be some like report option. I think also authors could say, you know, this is the tenth one of these I've gotten from somebody this week.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, you know, I think this is harassment, you know, if I hear from somebody else, I'm happy to do this, but, you know, here's my judgment of the situation. So I think to some extent you could allow.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Another idea being a kind of social science, you know, sitting with a lot of economists would be make people pay five dollars. Just say, hey, that's not that much.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But uhm, if you want to do, you know, is it really worth a thousand dollars to you to like be a troll, then yeaah. Those kind of small costs can hurt people maybe. Yeaah. Yes?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, so I don't need to go get grants for it. I'm doing, you know, super cheap surveys, collecting existing data, working with groups that are already paying for something.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, whatever else. In other, in other cases uhm, you know, research is really expensive. So uhm, I think


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The idea would be uhm, a few things. One is uhm, obviously there is like some level of like embarrassment that occurs. Uhm, and I think like why is that like a good thing? Partly is because it's not just about like what happens in this


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] What a researcher who knows this system exists will do. So the idea is, okay, I know that I might be embarrassed if I don't, like, follow, like, some honest procedures or I'm not careful, so now I should, like, not do the things that will lead that to happen. So I would say that's actually goal number one, which is the kind of reaction, uhm, the kind of anticipated reaction to that.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, we would call an equilibrium effect in, in social science. Uhm, I think in terms of what would happen in a particular case, uhm, there's a lot of things that could happen. One thing that could be, uhm, depending on the, the severity of the error, papers can be kind of, there's this thing called corrigendum, I never know how to pronounce it, where you can sort of say, uh, okay, you know, this table was wrong, or papers can be retracted.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] People can, you know, submit amendments. There's lots and lots of ways in which kind of journals deal with this, uhm, that, that, that one could imagine. Uhm, and depending on the kind of study, hopefully other people would, would, would do it again.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And you can imagine the kind of thing where on a given paper, uh, once it's kind of public that there's some issue about it, uhm, and the kind of thread has been made public, I thought about maybe other people could then go comment and say, oh, well, I saw this thread and then did a replication and like, here's what I think.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So we already kind of recognize an academia and deal with this problem of sometimes people have ideas that you don't know who they are and typically what people will do is like footnote like I acknowledge an anonymous reviewer for, you know, giving me this idea or, or something like that. Uhm, one thing that is a good question though and, and one thing it does make me worry about is


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, you know, to what extent would people kind of censor themselves because, you know, they wanna get credit for some idea.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But I guess my view is, uh, in that case they can, that kind of person who feels like they have some kind of publishable idea that it kind of rises to a level where there is kind of a real intellectual property there.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That kind of idea already has a way of being expressed in academia, which is why you go publish it. Whereas what I'm more worried about is these kind of smaller issues where it's not a, you know, a big intellectual contribution of the size that clears the bar for like a journal article to say,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] This paper wasn't honest, uhm, but you still want some way of incentivizing people to make that known. Yeah, yeah.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, wow, that's a good question. Uhm, it is true and it's amazing and crazy. Uhm, I don't know, do you have any ideas about that or?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, so the, the kind of phenomenon that, that he's referring to is that often times you'll see, you know, someone will write in their academic paper, well, you know, building on, you know, if, assuming X is true, where X is something that has been learned to be not true, and then you build some other claim from that, uhm, and, and, and a lot of that happens weirdly. Uh, so, uhm,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I think the, uh, I, I don't know how to solve that problem other than like the very boring thing of like journals need to update their websites better or their PDFs or something. Uh, but uhm, in terms of like what is the theory of like how people would happen upon this information? I think the goal would be that like often times in, in, in these situations like, okay so,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] In the case of the, uhm, the La Cour thing, uhm, literally I just, I didn't like announce this to anybody, like we had had this thing that the retraction was sent into science and we were like we just want to be transparent about our involvement in this. I, I literally just put like a small print link at the bottom of my website that like links to this PDF document. And like then by the next day,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I mean, I have no idea like how it got out in there because I didn't like advertise it, I just put it down there. And like by the next morning it was like everywhere.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, so, uh, which is what I expected to happen to be clear. Uh, but, but at the very least I think there's like ways in which like people who care enough about something will like...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Go talk about it and in the like kind of small communities of researchers that work in particular areas.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Another kind of, it's not error in data but it's kind of error in reasoning or something like that.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, so a couple thoughts that don't directly answer that. Uhm, you know, I think to some extent, academia deals with that now a bit in the sense that, uhm, you know, I, at least half the papers I review, I know who they're by because I've seen them before and they're like people that I know and like and would consider my friends.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And that's just kind of an unavoidable part of it. And people feel like already, you know, there might be some bias there, but I think people are at least somewhat accustomed to the academia of like doing that.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] There is this level at which if it rises to a kind of more serious like honesty issue, uhm, and I think the way I think about that is this, you know, if you go in, and this is why I actually think this is not a good, this would not have helped like my particular case, it was just like what my case opened my eyes to.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] If there's something like really serious like that or you know if you're right is going to be very serious, then I think probably in this case we have this time pressure because this other study and this other people's money we were spending that we had to like know if this is right or not.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And the public stuff and whatever, but I think in more typical cases what would happen is you would go through kind of the academic honesty channel. So you would imagine like, you know, one of you would go to like a dean and say this should be investigated or you would kind of go through the channels of the university and like our employers and or supervisors.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And kind of those channels would be the ones you would probably prefer in many of those cases. With that said, I think one way in which that does make the real world version of that problem easier though is you could easily imagine a situation where, for example, a lot of people don't post their replication data online, but they will email it out. And so right now we're in a situation where imagine


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, you know, there's some author you want to write to, and there's some paper that you feel like that person only gets requests for their application data maybe once a year. And you think there might be an issue with the paper. If you write into that person,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And say, okay, well, you know, I wanna see your data, and then a few months later, magically, some person comes out of the ether saying, looking at your data, I have this concern, it's gonna be obvious it's you.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So I think one extension to this that definitely is necessary is I think it should become, um, potentially a norm if, if, if this in fact is a good idea that, you know, right from the beginning, even if you don't suspect anything's wrong.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, this is the mechanism by which you ask for replication data. So, if uhm, it's, I'm just saying, hey, here's an anonymous email from a .edu address saying I want the replication data, not because I think there's anything wrong, but just because that way, in case I do find something, you can't say, aha, that's the only person that asked for my data, it was probably them.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Okay, many people way smarter than me have thought, uh, for much longer than I have about, uhm, how to make peer review better. Uhm, and, you know, just because it's not a perfect system doesn't mean it's not, you know, better than nothing, right? Uhm, so, uh, I don't know that I have any, uhm, anything insightful to say off the top of my head about it. What I will say is that definitely thinking along those lines, uhm, is what


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Inspired the kind of fourth row of the table here. The idea being, if you're a peer reviewer, you know, why write a careful review?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, really, you know, besides kind of the ethical duty of yourself, and it's kind of really academic inside baseball for those of you who don't live in this world.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The only reason is, like if you're writing a peer review, the people, the only person who reads it with your name attached to it is the editor of the journal. So if you write a totally stupid peer review or not a careful peer review,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Or you know, on the other hand, if you're thinking about putting in the effort to write a really good peer review,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The only person in whose eyes those reputational benefits accrue, uhm, is the, is the editor of that journal. So it's kind of a pretty small payoff.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So the idea here is part of the, the bug bounty here is, is, is this last row, uhm, which is to say, uhm, you know, is a peer reviewer.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You just don't have the incentive to be careful. And I think it would be really hard to, uhm, to, to figure out a way to


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Do that, to kind of incentivize anonymous peer reviewers to, to, to be more careful. But, uhm, when you're doing public criticism, uhm, or sorry, not the fourth row, the


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Second row. Uhm, if you're doing public criticism and you say, okay, well, hey, I think, and we all agree, you know, being careful and reading a paper and seeing it has an issue and following up on it, that's like a good thing that means we should think more of you.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] If like, that's a thing we all agree on in the context of this, you know, legitimized thing,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Then, uhm, all of a sudden somebody might feel like they have an incentive to go the extra mile. So, I mean, again, even though I don't think it's the best, uhm,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The best example of this, uhm, you know, the, the data for this paper, uhm, that looks like, that looked like this, uhm, you know, this was data that a lot of people worked with.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Okay, so uhm, you know, there was, there was a couple of follow-up papers written on like methodological things in this data, whatever else. So a lot of people spent a lot of time with this data. This is part of why, for me, I said so little. I was like, a lot of other people looked at this data and


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] They haven't, you know, decided to go forward, so, you know.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Why should I think that I know better than they do? This seems weird, but they're not concerned, you know. So uhm, I think one thing that, you know,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] This shows you that a lot of people can look at a lot of things and miss stuff.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And really part of what it takes is, you know, lowering the activation energy so someone says like, hey, this seems weird, can you explain this? Uhm, so that it's a little easier to kind of get the chain abdominals rolling.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The last couple of years I've been chasing down storms. I'm always searching for low pressure systems that are about to hit.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] This time a huge low pressure system appeared on the radar of the north west coast of Ireland. The forecast was predicting 50 knots of winds.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The storm lost our energy overnight, and I missed out on it. It felt like a big disappointment. Luckily things were about to change.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] An even bigger storm appeared on the maps and it was about to hit Holland, right in my backyard.


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[Assistant] There are not many times that you can train in these conditions. So once a storm hits, you better be ready.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I dedicate my life to extreme kiteboarding. Some people think I'm crazy, but to me, this is what I do.


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[Assistant] And we never called him Sonny until after he started boxing. We knew we all called him Sonny because that's the name he went by.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He was always stocky beer. He was never skinny child.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] We all lived on the farm, chopped cotton in the summertime, picked cotton in the fall of the year. Sonny grew up like the rest of the black people. He was never, you know, around white people unless we went, you know, somewhere to work for them.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Sonny Liston had a left jab from hell. He could put it through walls. Knock down buildings.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That he was consigned to that corner called Bad Man. It later played out, he moves to Denver and says, I would rather be a lamp post in Denver than mayor of Philadelphia. He hated the city that much for what it had done to him.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] They come out for the pre-fight introductions. And Liston, who's done his traditional.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Built himself up even on his shoulders, which could serve a sit down table for six dinner. This tucked all manner of towels under his shoulders to look even bulkier and more menacing. And for the first time, you can see him looking up


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And up and up he had not realized how tall Cassius Clay was. He never stood next to him.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Because there was Clay going back to his corner, not being carried back. As the last two times at Liston had fought. And all of a sudden, you got the impression something was happening different.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Two of Liston's opponents in previous fights had also had the same problem. Eddie Machin and Zora Foley. All of a sudden they couldn't see.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Liston had quit in his corner. This is only the second time in boxing history a heavyweight champion had quit in his corner.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The unbelievable had happened and immediately, as in all fights, rumors start. I mean, what's a good newspaper reporter without a rumor? There was a betting coup. And Liston adds to this. He hurt his shoulder. What shoulder? He's been throwing punches with that damn arm all fight.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] All week, you had heard rumors. The Muslims were gonna kill Liston. The gangsters were gonna kill Ali. So as you came into the arena, you were frisked. Even women had their pocketbooks searched. Something was gonna happen. It was in the air.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] We were all looking for places under the table to duck.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Half the people didn't see the punch that knocked him down on the other side of the ring.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And the crowd is hollering robbers, bums give us our money back. And all of a sudden we've forgotten that we might be shot at. We're caught up in the most improbable moment in sports.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Was it a true fight? Was it a true punch? What was it?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Chapter 17. The boys come back from the dead. The next day was a sad one for the village.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It was the day that everyone was to meet at the church and pray for their lost boys.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Everyone was so sad that they didn't even talk much to each other.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And the children didn't play as they usually did.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] For Becky Thatcher, this was a truly terrible day. She remembered how she had treated Tom.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And as she thought about this, she said to herself,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] If only I could see Tom again, I'd tell him how sorry I was and how happy I would be to get engaged again. And then she cried.


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[Assistant] The day before, many children from the school gathered at the front gate to think and talk about Tom and Joe and all of the games they had played with them.


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[Assistant] And all of the times, those two boys had gotten into trouble. They missed them both terribly.


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[Assistant] One boy said that he had been the last person to see them alive. The children had many questions for him. This made the boy feel very proud.


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[Assistant] The church bell rang all morning for the people to remember the boys. At 10 o'clock.


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[Assistant] Everyone came to the church and sat quietly waiting for the prayer service to begin.


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[Assistant] The last people to enter the church were the families of the dead boys. As Aunt Polly, Sid, Mary,


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[Assistant] And all of the harpers walked down the center of the two rows of seats. The rest of the people stood up out of respect for them. Once the two families were seated in front, the minister began to talk about the boys. He talked about how wonderful they were.


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[Assistant] Which made many people feel guilty for having once thought of them as bad boys. Between prayers everyone cried. Then, suddenly, at the back of the church


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[Assistant] There was the sound of a door being opened slowly.


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[Assistant] There was total silence inside, and everyone turned to see what was happening. And soon, walking before them all, were the very boys they were there to pray for.


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[Assistant] Huck felt a little embarrassed and tried to leave the church. But Tom caught him and said to his aunt,


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[Assistant] Aunt Polly smiled even more, and taking Huckleberry in her arms said,


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[Assistant] You can think of Tom's family as your family, Huckleberry. This just made Huck even more embarrassed.


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[Assistant] And so the church was filled with singing voices. Tom even sang, and loudly too.


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[Assistant] It's that, uh, Gerald Forbes waiting outside. Your uncle has something to say to him. Now don't go talking to him.


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[Assistant] Joe Elywell, I want you to answer one question.


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[Assistant] Jerry Sykes, he's a natural drag, you know? Tell me, Jerry had a beef with Gilly Saturday night before he beat it. Kind of all of that corn liquor he was soaking up. Yeah? How was it you was able to latch onto that mouse, Danny?


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[Assistant] You gonna dig that county fair, Danny? I might. You know that Jerry Sykes, strictly a sticky icky. Remember the time he trimmed you down behind the schoolhouse?


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[Assistant] Where's the college board badly to latch on to all that? Let us see waves around. Hey, Elmer, let's go. Come in, Mother.


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[Assistant] You know what would happen to us if we said anything. We'd be dead soon after.


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[Assistant] What if someone started asking you a lot of questions, would you tell them? No way. I'm not crazy. Good. I think that we're safe if we don't talk. But we should make another agreement.


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[Assistant] What have you heard people saying, Huck? Just muff-potta, muff-potta, muff-potta. It makes me want to hide. I've heard the same thing. You know they're going to hang him. Do you feel sorry for him?


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[Assistant] Of course I feel sorry for him. He has never hurt anyone.


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[Assistant] All that he's ever done is getting drunk, but he doesn't ask other people for money. He earns his money by fishing.


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[Assistant] I remember one day when he didn't have any money at all. He gave me one of the fish he'd caught. He's a good man who's helped me when I needed it. And he's done the same for me too. He taught me how to catch fish.


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[Assistant] There must be something we can do to get him out of jail. Forget it Tom. There's nothing we can do. And if there was, he'd just be caught again. Yes.


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[Assistant] I can't stand to hear the way people talk about him now.


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[Assistant] And he shouldn't be remembered like this after he dies. He's not the killer everyone thinks he is.


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[Assistant] You boys haven't treated me differently since I was put in jail, but everyone else hates me now. Even if I had been friends with them before.


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[Assistant] All the people I'd tried to help in the past, they've forgotten me. They never come here to see me.


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[Assistant] You're the only people who have been good to me in these terrible times.


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[Assistant] And I want you to know I'll always remember your kindness.


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[Assistant] Now, I want to give you some advice, boys. I've done something terrible.


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[Assistant] I never thought that I could do something like that before, but, well, I guess I was just drunk. But now I'm going to die for what I did. Anyway, I want to tell you this. Don't ever be like me.


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[Assistant] Don't let drinking control and destroy your life like it has controlled and destroyed mine. I hope you're listening very carefully. I know what I'm talking about. You two boys are good people, and if you do what I tell you, you'll stay good. Can you come here closer, so I can see your faces better?


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[Assistant] Yes, those are the faces of two good boys.


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[Assistant] Who've helped old Potter in his times of trouble.


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[Assistant] And I know that they'd do more if they could. Now, you boys go on home. It's starting to get late.


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[Assistant] Why is this man just sitting there listening? He should be trying to help Potter. That's what he's paid to do.


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[Assistant] Sir, because Muff Potter cannot remember anything about that night,


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[Assistant] And because none of the people questioned today were actually there when the murder happened, I have decided to bring someone to the courtroom who could remember very clearly what happened. I'd like to bring in Thomas Sawyer.


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[Assistant] Mr. Sawyer, could you tell the courtroom where you were the night that Dr. Robinson was killed?


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[Assistant] Where were you in the graveyard? Near Hoss Williams' grave, sir. When you say near, what do you mean?


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[Assistant] Tell the courtroom what you had with you. Remember to tell the truth. We had a dead cat, sir.


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[Assistant] We found the bones of this cat, which proves that the boy was there.


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[Assistant] Now, Mr. Sawyer, tell us what you saw that night.


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[Assistant] So, when the doctor hit Muff Potter, Indian Joe took the knife he'd picked up and


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[Assistant] That was how I was born. My early childhood was extremely happy, as my beautiful mother and kind Peggy took care of me. But when I was about eight, a shadow passed over my happiness.


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[Assistant] My mother often went out walking in her best clothes with a gentleman called Mr. Murdstone. He had black hair, a big black moustache, and an unpleasant smile, and seemed to be very fond of my mother. But I knew that Peggy did not like him.


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[Assistant] A few months later, Peggy told me that my mother was going to have a short holiday with some friends.


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[Assistant] Mr. Murdstone was at her shoulder, waving goodbye, as the driver called to his horse, and we drove out of the village.


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[Assistant] Adele was delightedly telling Mrs Fairfax about the presents she had received. Mr Rochester called me closer to the fire.


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[Assistant] I don't like the conversation of children or old ladies. He momented me.


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[Assistant] But they are entertaining each other at the moment, so I can amuse myself. Tonight he did not look so stern, and there was a softness in his fine dark eyes. As I was looking at him, he suddenly turned and caught my look. Do you think I'm handsome, Miss Eyre? he asked.


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[Assistant] Normally I would have taken time to think and said something polite, but somehow I answered at once. No sir. Hmm, you really are unusual. You are a quiet, serious little person, but you can be almost rude. Sir, I'm sorry.


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[Assistant] I should have said that beauty doesn't matter or something like that. No you shouldn't.


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[Assistant] I see you criticize my appearance and then you stab me in the back.


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[Assistant] Alright, tell me, what is wrong with my appearance?


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[Assistant] Mr. Rochester, I didn't intend to criticize you. Well now you can. Look at my head. Do you think I'm intelligent? He pointed to his huge square forehead.


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[Assistant] These patriots define the very nature of courage.


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[Assistant] That spirit typifies our American family.


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[Assistant] These ten years have shown that we hold fast to our freedoms.


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[Assistant] That democracy, reflecting as it does the imperfections of man, also give us the opportunity to perfect our union.


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[Assistant] More than monuments, that will be the legacy of 9-11. A legacy of firefighters who walked into fire and soldiers who signed up to serve. Of workers who raised new towers and citizens who faced down their private fears. Most of all of children who realized the dreams of their parents. It will be said that we kept the faith. That we took a painful blow


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[Assistant] Let us rededicate ourselves to the ideals that define our nation. And let us look to the future with hearts full of hope.


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[Assistant] Sometimes Stan will walk up to a younger person, stick out his hand and say hi. Stan the man. Thinks that-


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[Assistant] But after a while, Stan completed that commitment because he didn't want the kids to view him with a cigarette in his hand.


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[Assistant] He was trying to build a little on his own ego. You know, I'm the guy that traded museums.


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[Assistant] And kept Musial here in St. Louis. But if you talk to him about Frank Lane, start to see a little fire come out of Musial's eyes. If you cross him one time, you're not going to get another chance to cross him up.


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[Assistant] And she's a feisty little girl. And she got up and she...


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[Assistant] You'd better get it into your head right away. Good navigation is essential for any pilot. Fighter, bomber or coastal. Yes, sir. I hope you won't fail me, sir. If you let me through, I'll do everything to get up to scratch.


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[Assistant] We'll accept your promise and give you a pass. But if you let me die...


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[Assistant] And he hit a home run. And the guy in the press park said, give it back to Musial.


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[Assistant] Came from Denora, Pennsylvania, which is not far from Pittsburgh. That was a tough country out there. A steel country.


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[Assistant] Dan said, how I know how Lindbergh felt. And he says, hey kids, no school tomorrow.


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[Assistant] Thank you very much for joining today for this Monks podcast. My pleasure.


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[Assistant] It's been, I have always been, I always found your articles.


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[Assistant] On holistic development in our bhakti, quite illuminating. You often take an angle which I personally find quite helpful.


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[Assistant] And I used to read a lot of self-help books before I came to bhakti.


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[Assistant] Since you brought this angle up, that you yourself felt the need for it.


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[Assistant] If something is not connected with Krishna, it is a zero. But from a practical perspective, it may be valuable.


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[Assistant] That's true, so true actually. Say for example, don't be judgmental.


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[Assistant] Or something like that. We'll see so many occasions how Vali judged Sugriva and he created a, he thought that Sugriva was a traitor.


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[Assistant] Or rather are already acted upon by the characters in scripture, for dealing with situations. So, that's very...


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[Assistant] Bhakti is not just say doing ABC limbs. Now Jeev Goswami talks about say 5 principle limbs of bhakti or 64 items of bhakti.


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[Assistant] That's a good point that philosophical solutions for psychological problems


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[Assistant] Similarly, the mind has its own reality. The mind is one level and the mind will require its own treatment. We can't, as you said, throw shlokas at that point. So, you know, yeah.


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[Assistant] That's interesting. Now how would we differentiate between social and emotional? They're quite related, isn't it? Most emotional problems are related with relationships.


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[Assistant] But when it's a social problem, maybe it's either the person has to change their social situation or the social situation has to be changed to accommodate them. So it's a, yeaah, I think that's quite clear now the differentiation.


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[Assistant] Because in a different temple, he might have a different service and a different environment. So that service and environment is the Varna issue. And uh, that's interesting. I never, I would, I thought of Varna more in terms of service, but I think service and service environment both matter. Yeah, because


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[Assistant] More people might be inclined for the renounced ashram than the west.


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[Assistant] The renounced ashram is not practical for most people.


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[Assistant] In fact, I could say that in the last 7-8 years when I've given classes,


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[Assistant] That one point you said that the capacity for empathy, which is what helps people to belong to a team,


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[Assistant] So now I would just like to ask a little bit more on that. Sometimes in a devotee community,


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[Assistant] I have, I was at an interfaith meeting in DC.


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[Assistant] So there one of the representatives from Christianity was saying that


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[Assistant] Yes, this is sobering, yeaah. Devotees leave because they don't feel heard. And that is so true.


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[Assistant] And quite often the most, the biggest loneliness


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[Assistant] Is not when we are physically alone, but when we are surrounded by people who don't understand us and who don't even want to understand us.


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[Assistant] Say, if devotees who get into authority positions,


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[Assistant] Then they could abuse that knowledge to beat down others.


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[Assistant] A common problem which we are also facing in hermeneutics, I am a part of the Shastrik advisory council.


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[Assistant] But then that standard also has to apply in some context. And we have to consider that context.


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[Assistant] Beautiful, what you said about Prabhupada, throwing some things out. Prabhupada said actually that women are, now I am finding women are more intelligent than men.


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[Assistant] If everybody else in the management team is males, then having a female could create a certain level of discomfort and devotees might feel, let's avoid that.


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[Assistant] Uh, if you see the moment's hierarchy,


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[Assistant] I think Prabhupada says in the Krishna book that if somebody has been poor and then they become wealthy, then they often give charity because they know the pinprick of poverty.


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[Assistant] I just want to go back to an earlier point when you said that Prabhupada said 50% is our responsibility. That's quite a serious thing. I never heard this.


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[Assistant] And does something wrong, what they do, you will get the karma for that. So stop them from doing that wrong thing.


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[Assistant] Quite often, I remember Ravindra Saruppu writes in one of his articles, I think the cure of the soul, that is some devotee would go away.


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[Assistant] There is purity in terms of, say, certain impurities which you need to overcome, but equally important virtue is sensitivity or empathy.


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[Assistant] So we, and we are quite condemnatory of people who eat meat.


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[Assistant] We may be kind to animals, but we are not kind to human beings. We are not kind to devotees.


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[Assistant] So now if we want to talk about say, if I say I'm an ordinary devotee in the community and


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[Assistant] Now you mentioned one thing earlier that, say, you have read books and then you make presentations, so which are, which incorporate self-help principles and bhakti.


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[Assistant] So I also try to do that through my Geeta Daily and my other writings, try to present


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[Assistant] There are, even if a devotee is physically in one place where they don't find like minded association,


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[Assistant] And I had, I used to get certain kind of questions which most devotees would find very strange. Why are you asking questions like this?


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[Assistant] But then I had to connect at a international level with devotees who were more intellectually oriented.


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[Assistant] I found peace by that I think. I found that understanding, that empathy.


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[Assistant] Find like-minded association elsewhere, even if we can't physically relocate, at least, uh, we can connect digitally with people.


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[Assistant] Also going back to your earlier point that you said that you did the austerity of reading those books and presenting.


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[Assistant] I felt that as our movement advances,


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[Assistant] Within our movement itself, we need to create resources.


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[Assistant] By which various needs of devotees can be served.


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[Assistant] So, are there some boundaries that could be defined for this?


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[Assistant] Yeaah, it is setting a goal, acknowledging dependence. Acknowledging the need for help. So it's interesting here saying that, uh,


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[Assistant] And another aspect of self-development. Self-development will also give some gratification.


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[Assistant] Then developing themselves in that way will give some satisfaction.


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[Assistant] And there could be something which is uh, varanic, according to one's nature.


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[Assistant] So, one they call it Varna or Ashram nature.


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[Assistant] But that would be more of a sensual thing which we do not want to do. But the aspect of developing ourselves


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[Assistant] That is something which is very much according to our tradition. So that is what we need to do. Any thoughts on this?


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[Assistant] Yes, thank you very much for your time and uh,


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[Assistant] It has been very illuminating and I'm sure many devotees also find this illuminating.


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[Assistant] And uh, your book you mentioned was the, maybe if you send me the link, I will put it in the YouTube description also, that those who want they can get a copy of the book.


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[Assistant] Air bomber to pilot, testing intercom. One, two, three, four, five, six, seven. All good air bombers go to heaven. Can you hear me, mother?


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[Assistant] Hello, Navigator. Wait, I still can't give you a pin point. Can't see a ruddy thing down below. Okay, Airbomber. Thanks. How's it coming, Nav? Oh, alright. I think.


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[Assistant] I guess he just has to walk by foot.


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[Assistant] Just in the same way we sometimes watch, for example, war movies where the Russians speak English, but they're supposed to be speaking Russian. Let's, let's, uh, I think we'll figure it out.


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[Assistant] I think we've, we must've kissed at least once on camera. Maybe twice.


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[Assistant] That, that leather thing is very significant.


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[Assistant] When the world went to my closet to look for skeletons, they found shoes.


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[Assistant] Thanks God I had, uhm, only shoes. And the more they dug on my closet, the more beauty, beautiful paintings, beautiful jewelry, beautiful things they would find.


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[Assistant] Some complain and moan, but not me. Some have given up their jobs and others continue. I've gotta go now.


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[Assistant] There used to be six or seven of us in this workshop. Now we're three.


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[Assistant] They scrambled your chromosomes. They caused you to hop off of buildings. It was all terrifying. So I took a look at the true effects of these substances. I was very surprised at what I found.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You take a look at guys like Kareem Jabbar, New York City, UCLA, Wilt Chamberlain, Philadelphia, Kansas. Once the Big East came about, those players stayed at home.


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[Assistant] They got where they were supposed to be and you felt that this Georgetown team was at the top of their game.


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[Assistant] But Jan, those 120 boys gave their lives to tell all the world that we're still Czechs. That we'll always be Czechs.


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[Assistant] My father had nothing to do with the shooting yesterday. He was doing research at the library all day. You can easily get proof.


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[Assistant] No, there was a passing cab and it drove off with him.


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[Assistant] Have you any way of telling whether my father was- No!


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[Assistant] This is Wii Sports, but I'm not here to play training for any platinum medals today. I need to reaffirm...


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[Assistant] Whenever I got my Wii, this is the me I made myself back in the day. I am skill level 1823.


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[Assistant] On the way to 3,000 and I'm over halfway there. I'm not, I'm not doing too bad. It'd be pretty cool to hit 2,000 today. But it'd also be really cool just to win a game because Wii Sports Baseball at the skill level is pretty hard. I have to be smart. I have to be wise. Not swinging a whole lot here.


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[Assistant] And that's a terrible start. I think it's best to not swing. Ooh, except on ones like that. The key is though, I don't know about that one, Chief.


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[Assistant] Uh-oh, don't catch it, don't catch it, don't catch it! Thank you.


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[Assistant] That starts with a C. At least I'm making her arm get tired by...


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[Assistant] Now right into Big Lip's damn glove. Not a very great start to the game for me.


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[Assistant] Really not a great start. We couldn't have dove for it out there. Now I, I, I formulated a great pitching strategy, which is throwing it at their hands and then splittering. But I don't think they splitter at all at this. Oh Jesus, Louisa's.


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[Assistant] You know what? You know what? No, no, no. No, no, no. I don't even wanna watch this. No, no, no, no. I don't wanna watch this. We're restarting. You're inherently cheating if you throw a sidearm.


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[Assistant] These people I shouldn't even be losing to. I have 500 more skill level than them. Is that the max skill level that the CPU players even get to, like in the 1300s or something? Because that's where they are.


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[Assistant] Oh jeez. Only a couple seconds late there, Helen Keller. Thank god for that foul call. That was, that was a splitter though.


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[Assistant] Ohhhh, that should have been a home run. Instead, stupid butthole Alex catches it.


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[Assistant] That's a homer. If that isn't a homer, my name ain't... myself. Much better start than last time.


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[Assistant] Man, we're only gonna get one run. Now what's she gonna do here? What am I gonna do? That should be a single.


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[Assistant] Your, your stupid butthole. Your mom's a ball.


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[Assistant] Nah, we're not gonna catch that. We're gonna let that one daintily fall right behind us and not, you know, jump for it, back up for it.


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[Assistant] Ooh, he did, he did go for a splitter.


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[Assistant] Man, they really don't want to go for those.


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[Assistant] Do I actually have a good pitching strategy for even the high levels here? Dude, Tyrone!


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[Assistant] Gotcha. I'm gonna keep on doing this one then. You stupid butthole.


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[Assistant] A plus B equals splitter. What's so confusing about that?


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[Assistant] End the ending with zero runs given up, but no no no, my idiot ass, me, can't figure shit out.


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[Assistant] Oh, go the distance. Dammit. I need the runs if I can get them. Because I don't trust myself to hit the ball again. I trust myself to hit it once an inning.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You would understand why I'm n-n-knowing right now. I barely moved it.


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[Assistant] Can we not hit it to Tyrone, please? We're making Tyrone look good. He sucks.


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[Assistant] I'm getting so emotional here because we have a chance in this one. And I had someone on the base, and yet-


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[Assistant] And these guys are geniuses right now. Unlike my character. My- You're DUMBER THAN ROCKS!


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[Assistant] Nice job giving up. Oh wow, I can't believe that wasn't a triple. What is so hard to understand? Hey, idiot! A plus B and I go like this! You are so fucking dumb! Every time! How do you not get it? Every time!


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The Wii Remote still works. My wall is gonna stop working because of how many times I've thrown a Wii Remote at it. I'm not gonna be able to win any games. If...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] This game is going to just pretend like it doesn't understand me pressing A and B.


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[Assistant] It doesn't make sense. I press A and B and I throw the freaking ball.


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[Assistant] Get outta here. Get outta here. Nope, it's not outta here, is it? Oh wow, it is. I thought it was gonna be just short.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I did not swing game, I just flinched a little bit. There was no follow through.


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[Assistant] What is it, RNG just all strikes now? Okay. You go from throwing a ball, like every time, to now all strikes.


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[Assistant] Yeaah, suck my wiener. Let's mercy this guy. He's a punk ass. Come on, beefboss.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now a homer, and we'll be at 5-0, and if, as long as we don't give up a run, we got the mercy.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I'm glad I swung at that one. That's another double, that's gonna be one run. I'm playing like we're on beginner difficulty now. Abby, with three B's, BBB.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Oh, great call, Abby! I'm crushing this guy! All I needed was a fit of rage, and I'm- I'm great again. How about another home run? Let's make it 8 to nothing.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Okay, now can we get him with the splitter again?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You frickin' who's my first baseman? BeatBoss? Hit the gym.


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[Assistant] Nothing is spectacular about that. Fuck you, fans. Somehow give up three runs now. Really, we gave up one.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That's, the ball nearly hit me, that's a strike.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You are the worst game ever created!


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[Assistant] I'm Google, I gotta Google. Why do you exclamation point in Wii Sports Baseball? Cause it doesn't make sense to me anymore.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Apparently it is just RNG. Is my RNG just incredibly unlucky that I get that almost every freaking time? I'm going to try a sputter right here. Wish me luck.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I go through all that risk, and it doesn't even... get him. I'm going to split her again.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Dammit. All that effort just to give him a stupid base.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The fact that he didn't swing at that saved the game. He's just throwing zingers now.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Oh god, thank god it stayed in. He threw an exclamation point ball.


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[Assistant] But for the CPU, when they throw an exclamation point, it's once they get far enough into the game, it starts sweating enough.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] They get tired essentially and that's why they throw exclamation points. For me, it was like the second pitch of the game.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Or the first pitch of the game for my character that he threw an exclamation point. That to me is, is unfair.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I like this guy, I wanna play him every time. Unless he has a miraculous comeback in the top, bottom of the, whatever the later part of the third inning is.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] No way. How do we go from ripping them, ripping them, after ripping them, after ripping them, to three right into the dirt?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Don't appreciate him swinging at that. Tender Defender, can you not put your glove up? Hey, right over your head and catch that! Uh oh.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Wow, that was not what I intended to do at all. Okay, splitters are illegal.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] We got saved. We got absolutely saved. I cannot throw splitters anymore. My character does not understand what it is. Okay, this should be catchable. I would think.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Of course it's not. My worthless team is once again being worthless. Okay, can we catch that one?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Oh wow, I was dogging Beefboss the whole time. Really, he's our hero shortstop.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] She can tell I like to throw it. Okay.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I wanna throw a splitter so bad, but it's such a risk. I would give up.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The one to end the game. You would have been the hero right there, BeefBoss. Are you guys allergic to the ball?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] There's such little effort being exerted to catch that ball. It's toxic.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That's the game. They had the bases loaded. That was getting scary. That game could have been a hundred and nothing, but instead it ended nine to four.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Bombs right now. That is not a bomb though.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Could I do the unprecedented and get two wins back to back? It's 104.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Oh jeez, that counted! That had to be by an ass hair, but it was out of the dimension, so...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Oh jeez, one more is all we needed to at least have a chance.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Well, we wouldn't have got it anyway. First, the first throw I make, and that wasn't even gonna be a, that's a left side, ah, I don't think my Wii Remote correctly inputted what I wanted to throw there. I don't even like to throw strikes at all. And then apparently,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] My, my d-pad is not working correctly because I'm trying to throw them at them. Let's just keep on throwing the same thing. Thank god that, uh, he saved us.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Ohhh, he exclamation pointed it and I hit it with my tip.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I hit it off his bat! He didn't even swing!


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That is the most talented thing I've ever done in this game. I gotta do this splitter again.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Not that much. We're almost, if I get another win, I got 2,000.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I gotta do it. I gotta go for another. I wanna end on a high note right there. But I gotta get one more win. And it's gotta be a decent win.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I'll take our base. He used all, he threw a lot of balls, which is good for getting exclamation points later. Man, he's throwing as many splitters as I would throw. I wasn't worried about freaking exclamation points.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Nope. Oh, thank you for that massive mess.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] We got very lucky right there. It's almost like the game had to think about it too. Whether it touched the ground before she caught it. Would really like this homer here.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Only three runs, that's a little lackluster from what we're used to.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now I gotta hope shot is not good with my, uh, my pitching strategy here, which is not that. Nice, nice catch, Abby. That wasn't the pitch I wanted.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Jesus guys, come on. Swing at something. Okay. Yea, don't swing at that though.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] There it is. That's out of the park too, isn't it? Wow. That's three runs, that's 6-0.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] If I'm up by five at the end of the second, it's a mercy.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So I have a one run, uh, you know, buffer.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I-I-I don't know. I-I-I feel like I'm alive.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That's the luckiest shit ever. I was like, I'm just swinging because it's usually an exclamation point.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Base is loaded, a home run here would be nice, and it's my own me.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Okay, alright. We'll stop at ten, we'll show mercy, we'll show mercy. This would have to be a choked job of the century here.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Do we have another outfielder over there? If this isn't a triple I don't know what it is.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Okay, there's a chance we give up a run here. I'm gonna, I'm gonna throw that possibility out there after that one. Go team! Catch that ball! Go team! Thank you.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I get very nervous for those very popped up fly balls.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Team, you can do this! You can do this, team! If you can do it, no one can- AHHHH!


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I gotta do it. I'm going for the splitter to end the game.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The game of my life. That is not how I expected this to end. I figured I'd start falling apart, getting really mad, because I want to get to 2000.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And I'm over 2,000. I am officially off the chart.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I'm, I'm, I got, I mean, as much as I'm on a hot streak right now, I am hot as I am sweaty. I am balls deep in heat and sweat.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Well, they just, uh, they intimidated the other team and just scared the crap out of them. It's funny because it was so different from what we were actually like.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] We would go out on the court and see the fear in team's eyes.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] We fully expected to win another one. Our younger players and more experienced haven't gone through it once. Yeah, we fully expected to do it again.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Harold Jensen had a off the hook game. I mean, the guy was draining stuff from way out.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But then I screwed up. And I threw a bad pass.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You know, it hurt to lose, but you know, I mean, they play a terrific game. They deserve to win.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Joe Frazier became an employee of the company. An employee and the company's principal asset.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I remember being really tense at halftime for that game. Tense and depressed. That is really the point when I thought, this could be it. The fun could be over.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Georgetown Hoyas National Champs 1985. We were irate.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It's now afternoon in New York City and we're less than eight hours away from the most extraordinary sports event of all time. This is the first World Heavyweight Championship in which both men have never lost a fight.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So how on earth were you winning all those fights with just one eye?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] What keeps a fighter going in situations like that in those final rounds? I don't mean this.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That's the train. At last. What's the train?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Only two hours behind time this one, mhm. God, look at me.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] No, no, they've got to get their luggage, find the tickets, be greeted by the station master. Five years she's been away. Wonder what she looks like. She's a good woman, easy going, no side.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It'll heal before your wedding day. And she washed the blood from her face right here in the nursery. And now here I am, a rich man.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Your land is less than 20 miles from town and near the railway, right? If the orchard and the land by the river


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] All you'll have to do is a bit of cleaning and tidying, all these outbuildings and things. You'll have to go, of course, and, uh, this place, which is of only marginal value to anyone now, and the Cherry Orchard.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Five men could clear it in, uh, less than a week.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Remarkable thing about your cherry orchard is its dimensions. It's very large, but...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Alright. But unless there's some...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Pretty clear thinking and some sensible decisions forthcoming.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But be assured, there's no other way out.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And in 20 years from now, there'll be masses of them around every town, even the smallest. And as of now, they just...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] When these same people will take to planting out their little acre. Growing things. And they ought to live again. Be alive again with growing things.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Think about the summer cottage scheme, hm? If only to let me know, I'm pretty sure I could raise 50,000 or so to set things in motion. Think hard, hm?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Your son's tutor. Can I change so much? Come to you, but come.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I was on the game before you were even born. I could get rid of you like that. I'm being nice.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Oh. Well, no worries. You won't be hearing from Mr. Miller again.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Like I told you, I'm a terror with a hatpin.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You're 16 years of age. You've spent years in an orphanage. And suddenly you're on your own in big, bad Sydney. With only one friend in the world. No money. No job prospects. And wham-o. You're offered the chance to make easy money. Is that how it happened? Jill's friend was on the game for a year. She introduced her to Richie.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Men, like Richie, have a way of making anything look glamorous. At least at the start. And by the time those silly kids see through it, it's too late.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Are you stupid kids? There's nothing stupid about it.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Forgive me, I was told to wait until the morning, but I still lack patience.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, thank you for that introduction. Uhm, it's really nice to be back at, at, at Stanford. Uhm, some of you will know I, I, I spent a very happy year here on sabbatical. Uhm, uhm,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Is based on a long term study that we've been doing along with some colleagues, uh, of, of, it started off as a study of collaborative practice in deep space science and has evolved in a variety of, a variety of ways.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] When I first put a talk together around this work, I wasn't writing it as an HCI talk.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, I'm gonna try and present it a little more as an HCI talk today, or maybe perhaps an HRI talk, right? I think what we are going to be talking about in here in a strange kind of way is, uhm, is human-robot interaction, uhm, where the robot happens to be a spacecraft around about a billion kilometers away.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So I want to start off, I should start off by, by acknowledging, uhm, some of my collaborators who have been part of this project. Uhm, so Janet Vertesi, who's a sociologist, and, uh, in the, in the faculty at Princeton.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, and an STS scholar who also spent some time with us at Irvine, uhm, has been, uh, one of the sort of, has been working on aspects of this project with us, uh, from, for, for many years now.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, uh, so, so the w- although I am the only person here to present the talk, this is very much, uhm, uh, collaborative, collaborative work. Okay, I better explain some of the stranger-


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Words in the title of my talk and perhaps first and most importantly trying to think about what it is we mean by socio, by socio material. Uhm.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Socio-materiality. And if you like, we could see this as the latest in a sort of historical progression of ways of thinking about the relationship between technology and social practice. Technology and social stuff, organizational life and so forth. Uhm, if you look back at early work,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, and, uh, and somehow, you know, there are ripple effects that change society. Uhm.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It's not purely about its intrinsic properties, it's about how it gets used. And as we all go about organizational life, social life, cultural life, we are creating meaning for the, for the artifacts, the technologies, for the things that we do, the things that are around us. So that seems like a, uhm,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, but in some ways, it's sort of a swing of the pendulum a little too far in the other direction, which somehow, or at least in its more, uhm, in, in some forms, seems to, uh, evacuate the technology of any kind of intrinsic properties. We stop thinking about the constraints of the technology because it's somehow all socially constructed.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So when people have over the last couple of years been arguing for a position on technological, on social and cultural analysis of technology that takes, that's broadly called socio-material or socio-materiality, what they want to point to


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Is the idea that uhm, that as things are social, they are also material.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That as, uhm, eh, as social factors shape our experience, so too do the material, physical characteristics of technologies, spaces, places, uhm, uhm, the things, the things that we use.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And so we need perhaps a new kind of theoretical frame, a socio-material frame.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] As that sort of socio-material agenda has been, has developed, it has, it's often...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Been formulated in terms of a problem of identifying the locus of agency, that is where things happen and who does stuff.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Right? And so, so you know, the, even the accounts of social materiality, which lie somehow halfway between a world in which technology is the thing that does things, and the social world is the thing that does things.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, even within this middle ground of socio-materiality, there's still this question of like, well, where, you know, the problem becomes, where do you locate the agency? Is it, like, how do we find the balance point, an account that incorporates the social, incorporates the material, and somehow puts them, puts them together?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And so lots of people, uhm, and I'll get more to this at the end, later in the talk where we sort of lift back up to the theory.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, lots of people have tried to sort of account for social materiality in terms of this thing about, well, we know that they're both important, but we need to find the balance point. We need to find where the problem is of agency. Is it more on the material side and is it more, is it more on the social side?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That's an approach to socio-materiality, that somehow, curiously, at the same time as it tries to put the social and material together, also, I gotta argue, like holds them apart, it makes them parallel, it says they're both important, but somehow, we've gotta find the place where they touch, but they're somehow independent domains.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And what we're going to try and argue for in this talk is an approach that tries to say, well, we don't want to think about them as parallel domains, we want to think about them as somehow


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And I want to think about, uhm, how it is that they, they come together and that actually creates the context for each other. That is, it's the social that creates the context for understanding what material, materiality might even be and vice versa. This all sounds horribly abstract. It's going to get a little more ethnographic in a minute. Uhm.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I'm going to come, yeaah, so I'm going to say almost nothing about this, but the kind of lens we're trying to use, and this, like the launching off point for this, is what we've been thinking about as, uh, as, uhm, the word, around the word reconfiguring.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So we talk very easily, perhaps even too easily, especially in technical circles, about reconfiguring things. About reconfiguring our technologies, about reconfiguring ourselves, about reconfiguring our organizations. Uhm, and certainly the people that we've been working with, ethnographically, who I'll tell you about in a second, uhm, use the word reconfiguring a great deal.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So figuring is a notion that actually gets used a lot in feminist science studies and other kinds of, and, and, and similar sort of critical perspectives on, on science and technology to refer to the process of producing, represent, or representing the world. Figuring it and putting it in a figure.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Putting it in numbers, putting it in some kind of representational form, um, creating a representation that somehow abstracts from the world, but, but, and, and in abstracting from the world makes sense of the world.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But also produces the world that we experience because as we craft that figure, we also create a sort of le-, a perceptual lens for ourselves that begins to tell us about the world. So when I build a mathematical model of the world, that also then shapes how it is I'm going to encounter that world, look at that world, think about that world and so forth.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] A figure, a graph, a graphic, a representation, an inscription, a numerical model or whatever it is.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] When we turn figuring into con-figuring, this is con in the sense of sort of width, right? Figuring width.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I never actually get to just figure things. I don't get to produce figures all on my own. The world has to cooperate. The world has to fit in with my figure. So this process of figuring that I do is actually one of engagement with the world. You've got to recognize the connection to the world that's implied by the production of the figure.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And then by reconfiguring, we mean that you never get to do that just once, but it's an ongoing thing.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Because a model is always, and a representation is always incomplete, there's always more work to be doing. So when, so, so we find that we sort of, uhm, you'll see when I get to the end, when I come back to this, but we actually, you know, when people would start to talk about reconfiguration,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] What we found really interesting sort of analytically in that are all three of these notions. That is, bringing the world into alignment with some kind of depiction of it that we can have technological access to. Doing that in a way that understands a connection between


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Okay, let's talk about the ethnography and then perhaps all these highfalutin things will start to make a little more sense.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The particular project that we've been engaged in


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, has, is a study of deep space science and in particular a study, uhm, that we've conducted for a couple of years of the Cassini project, uhm, run out of NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That place is normally called the site, right? So one of the things that's sort of complicated for us in this project is even just to figure out what the site is. In one aspect, the site.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, nestled in the foothills in Pasadena in the northern, uhm, reaches of, of Los Angeles. Uhm, a place that runs a lot of NASA, uhm, uh, missions. It's not a research center like Ames is, it's an operations and engineering center.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, and, and indeed that is the place to which, uh, you know, my student Marissa doing her ethnographic work would go on a regular daily basis. Now, Cassini happens in many places. The Cassini project has run from here. This is where the operations people are. This is where a lot of the science work happens too.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, many different scientific teams with responsibility for different of the scientific instruments. Uhm, all sort of controlling this spacecraft. Oh yea, the spacecraft. The spacecraft...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Is that's another site. The spacecraft is, uhm, tumbling around in space, uh, uhm, and in particular has since 2004 been exploring the Saturn system. Saturn, its rings, and some of its moons.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] During the 1980s, based on often actually technology that had been developed in the 1970s, used in previous NASA projects, or platforms that had been used in previous NASA projects,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, built in the 1990s, launched in 97, and then it got to Saturn in 2004. And at that point, it's what they call its prime mission began.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Which was, uhm, actually due, uhm, only to, uh, uh, the prime mission was, was, was between 2004 and 2007 and that was the sort of first round of exploration. Then they went into what they call XM, the extended mission.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, which took us up to, uh, around about 2010, maybe 2011. Uhm, which, since which point they have been in XXM, the extended, extended mission, you can begin to see it's like, there is something that comes after us.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, the plan is finally that the spacecraft will, that the whole mission will come to an end in 2017 when they enter the death spiral, as they call it, and that, uhm, spacecraft will, uhm,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Oh, spiral into Saturn itself, gathering as much data as it does before it dies.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You know, and in some ways the site is actually the robot, the spacecraft, an object about the size of our sort of medium-sized school bus, uhm,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, to which a whole variety of, uhm, instruments have been, have been bolted.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So the original design for Cassini was that it would have all these different kind of scientific instruments mounted on a thing that looks basically like a lazy susan which they called a scan platform that would be out on an arm. So it would be a gimbal at the end and they'd be able to like point different instruments at different kinds of things.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That was, in the delightful organizational jargon that goes along with these things, value engineered out of the design. That is, they ran out of money.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, even more, uh, critically than when they were on the scan platform, when one instrument is pointed at the planet, say, or whatever the object of astronomical, um, scientific attention is just now, none of the other instruments can be, because the craft has to be pointed like this, and then it points like that, right? And they, all the objects, all the, um, all the, uh, instruments point in different kinds of directions.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And that costs fuel and energy. These are very, very precious commodities.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, and so there's a lot of debate has to happen, uhm, about what, uh, what the benefit is of pointing your instrument rather than my instrument at this particular ring at this particular moment when balanced against


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But this, basically, this is, this spacecraft is arguably, uhm, arguably also our site.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Certainly the sight of everybody, of everybody's attention. Now, the other thing that's really important to say about this spacecraft...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Is that nobody has seen it since 1997, right? That's the last time it was like.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And you can hear some of the things I've been saying. Automatically in this project we have a bunch of complicated


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Tensions and relationships that need to be unpacked. The first one


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Is the relationship between science practice and engineering.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] There's scientists who after all are doing the scientific work for which the spacecraft was launched, which you would argue is the point of the mission. And then there are a separate set of people for much of our ethnographic work on a different floor in the building.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, doing the engineering work of keeping the spacecraft alive. Making the whole thing work. Getting it from point A to point B.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Engineering supports science, but engineering is often in conflict with science.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, for instance pointing an instrument in a way that might cause another part of the spacecraft to heat up. Uhm, making quick turns, the sort of thing that uhm, that might endanger the spacecraft. Or in something that might endanger the life of the spacecraft, that is to run out of fuel now would be bad.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And so we need to make the fuel last and so you get automatically this kind of like tension between on the one hand the engineering aspect of keeping the thing going and making sure it's still there tomorrow and the scientific problem of getting the data that you need, getting the observations you need, doing the science that you need. Uhm, you, there's also, of course,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, so, so you know, you might imagine that any kind of like social material breakdown says the material is off in space and the social stuff is down here. That's what I'm actually going to argue against that as we get to the end.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] There's another important tension that uhm, I'm not gonna talk about so much but it's so fascinating I want to mention it here and it will come up a little bit.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] There are many ways in which Cassini is doing some of the most advanced spacecraft science that NASA and therefore humanity has ever done.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Nobody has ever flown a spacecraft that far away this long before. We've sent spacecraft further away, and there's been missions that lasted longer, but we didn't fly them. Those were ballistic orbits, like Voyager, you know, it's like you put it on a catapult and it should pop into space. We don't like move it around. Cassini moves around.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Right? We fly it. We turn it. We change our minds about where it's going and send it off in another direction. The space navigation that's happening in Cassini is by far the most advanced, complicated, extended and extensive navigation that anybody's ever done.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But at the same, so it's cutting edge in that sense. At the same time, it's a dinosaur.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Nobody at NASA would ever run a project this way.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, a lot of things have happened at NASA and to NASA since 1982.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, we plan missions differently now, we do missions differently now, uhm, faster, better, cheaper, all these things, uhm, change the kind of dynamic of organizational work in NASA. We don't do that, they don't do projects the way that Cassini is done.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Similarly, as I said, we built Cassini or Cassini was built.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, using platforms like, you know, hardware architectures that had been developed on previous missions, you know, like in the 70s and in the 60s, right? All their software is written in Fortran.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, because that's what there was then. And so it looks...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, that come from our ethnographic work that will provide us with some perspective for coming back to this question of social materiality and asking again, what might it, how should we be understanding this relationship between the material obdurate stuff out of which we build systems and the social world that lives around them. And the first one actually ref, uhm,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And, uh, and the Fortran code is all pretty old, uh, these are well worked out, well tested systems that we've used for previous, um, for previous space missions, previous that is to, to, to Cassini, so going back pretty far.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] They've developed it a lot, they've tweaked it, they've done all sorts of things to it to suit their own particular, their own particular needs, but it's an old kind of crufty system.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] In the, in a new sort of more efficient world, uhm, NASA certainly doesn't want to be, well, A doesn't want to be running this old Fortran code for every new mission we run. You know, that seems like a bad idea.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, cross mission, uh, navigational software.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] A system that, you know, the system was built ended up being called Monty. Uhm, and I ought to be able to remember what it stands for, but I can't. It's in my paper.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So the NAS, the Cassini people were told, we would like you to start running Monty as your navigational, piece of navigational software. So they started exploring this, this possibility.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And they quickly ran into, uhm, a series of problems that basically, you know, stem from the fact that


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Monty would give different directions to the spacecraft than their legacy software did.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Monty had a different way of doing the math. Monty was using different floating point algorithms. And Monty was using different assumptions. And the whole result was that it was inconsistent with the navigational software that was already working.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And it's pretty difficult to make the shift from a piece of software that has successfully, as far as we can tell, gotten you to Saturn and flown you around. Uhm, uhm, and, you know, just because the other one is, is, is written in C++, despite any of these organizational mandates.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The inverse problem with this? The navigational software isn't just telling the spacecraft where to go. It's the only thing that tells us where it is.