[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Very deeply affected by and grateful for the work you're doing in the monks podcast. So thank you in particular amongst your many seva's for this seva of doing the podcast. I'm really grateful that I can participate today.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yes, definitely. That sounds good.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, actually, uh, the tension that you described in my life, um,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I think you, you hit it spot on. I think it's very well described, articulated.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] As the temple, as I grew up, the temple also grew up. And so we kind of grew together. And as a result of that,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, uhm, we had a lot of opportunities. But first of all, my education itself was


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Grounded in the study of Srila Prabhupada's books, especially Srimad Bhagavatam, and it is through the study of Bhagavatam that, um, I, uh, I learned English language skills and writing and comprehension and critical thinking. One of the things that my mother would do, which I think was really turned out to be the heart of


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, was the fact that we would read Bhagavad Gita together seated in a circle.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, uh, myself, my younger brother Gopal, and my mother. And we would read each one translation. And then, uhm,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] We would discuss, and the discussion wouldn't be in the mode of a teacher quizzing the student. What was this? Do you remember that?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But it would be more with the idea of going deep into the text.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, you know, critical thinking and even debate sometimes, exercise, where there wasn't an assumption that uhm, we were going to, you know, get to the what, the student had to find the one right answer. Uh, that, that uhm,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But rather that the teacher and the student were on a shared


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And from that experience, I developed a love for study of Srimad Bhagavatam in particular.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Homeschooling can definitely have the negative aspects that you described and I know of people who do it in that way.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, and they always make it into the news because the children were, as you said, abused and


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] In, in the context of being given a very, very, uhm,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] One was this process of critical reasoning and thinking.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] An exploration that came from really what we can call a tutorial method of studying Prabhat's books.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, uh, where there's discussion and engagement. But then the other thing was the existence of the temple. Uh, and


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The fact that we had so many opportunities to express ourselves to newcomers, to the general public, as we were one of the very few, uhm,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] In Boise, Idaho, this small town in the Northwest region of the United States. And as a result, we were invited in the town


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So, you know, if there was a new memorial being established in town, or if there was a...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Interfaith service happening or a Thanksgiving service or Christmas occasion


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] We were the Hindu family, we were the Indian family, we were sometimes representing all of Asia. So in this way, I, I was, uhm,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I was encouraged to express, I was asked to express who I was.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] This is why I'm a devotee and this is what it means to be a devotee. And I think it's that process of continuously expressing myself.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That, that eventually led to my transition into the academic world. So it was less of a dichotomy as it might seem in the beginning.


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[Assistant] Because in academia, in scholarship, the primary activity of teaching is all about being able to express yourself and make yourself present in the classroom.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] We emphasize, my mother and I, we emphasize this many times in our, sorry, we emphasize this many times in our talk, that homeschooling should not mean isolation. In fact, any form of education should not mean isolation. It means protection of the child, but not isolation. The two are very different things.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Protection involves giving them, uh, uh, uh, opportunities to engage with the wider world.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Taking care of their protected and within certain boundaries and boundaries are very important for children. So I think you stated it very well that isolation is not the answer for any form of education.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I, I, I don't recall thinking about us and versus them, uh, because, uh, you, you know, we, we were the, the them who, the people who might be other to us.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] In other words, we were meeting them on regular basis. They were coming to the temple. So we had a sense that we were different and we were proud to be different. We understood the beauties and the advantages of Krishna consciousness.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But we also recognize that there are people of other faiths and other backgrounds and people of no faith.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And there were good people amongst them, right? That they weren't all


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You have to see where your audience is at.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Find what is good and positive and uplifting in them and use that as your starting point.


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[Assistant] For a discussion. For a connection. That's the job of a teacher.


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[Assistant] But it has very little impact on the audience, who takes a defensive posture and says, wait, you know, I don't want to be attacked verbally.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Come together. And for that, the teacher must begin where the other person is at. Not where they are at. Where the other person is at. That's effective teaching.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] As, uh, as devotees, and I think this is true of any person of faith.


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[Assistant] That ultimately, if you're grounded in a tradition,


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[Assistant] There have to be reasons why you consider your tradition to be special, to be unique, right? And, and, and why


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Why you, you choose to be grounded in that tradition. So it's, it's not just in terms of separate but equal or different but equal.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But there is a sense that, yes, Krishna consciousness includes


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, other expressions or it can understand other expressions or there are aspects of Krishna Consciousness which are special and unique.


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[Assistant] But that does not prevent ourselves from looking at others and their love and affection for God and saying that there is also something unique there.


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[Assistant] And by appreciating it, even though that is not my tradition and my preferred way of loving Krishna, but by seeing their love for God.


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[Assistant] Of, of specialness or uniqueness to your tradition.


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[Assistant] That is why I'm grounded in it, but that uniqueness and greatness of your own tradition, as you said, does not entail putting someone else down, right?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Of, of, uh, psychological weakness, even in an individual, if my sense of self-esteem can only be held


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[Assistant] There's some issue there, right, that needs to be resolved.


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[Assistant] My sense of self-esteem does not have to be based on your, uh, uhm, uh, faults.


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[Assistant] We can both have a healthy sense of esteem and I can appreciate who you are.


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[Assistant] While also recognizing that I have certain abilities and certain opportunities to give, uh, uh, uh, to others, right?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Being open to this career. Not only being open, but encouraging me. Uh, my mother and father both. I remember, uhm,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] When I was first considering doing a career in, uh, Sanskrit, uh, and religious studies, my father, um, visited


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And he decided, why don't I go over to go to the Sanskrit department and just meet with the chair, the professor and see if it would, it would be a good place for Ravi to come and join. And so, uh, uh, and I think my mother accompanied him on that trip. And, uh, anyway, they sat down in front of the chair of the department and he told them, do you know that you are the first, um, set of Indian parents


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So I, I can't remember now. I, I must have been, so my trajectory was when I went to the university a little early. So uhm, this was looking for graduate school.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Actually, I was almost 13. I was almost 13.


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[Assistant] And I graduated when I was 17. So this was just before I finished my undergrad, I think. Maybe I was 16, something like that. And uhm, and so this is now, what, 22 years ago.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And, uh, maybe things have changed a little bit, but then the other thing he said, he said, uh, uh, do you realize that if you, um,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Clear career path, you know, uh, in the way that it is for an engineer, where you just go. So to this day, I mean, the vast majority of Indian kids in the United States or anywhere, uh, go into, or try at least to go into fields like engineering or medicine or law or something like that.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, he was a colleague of my father's at Hewlett Packard.


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[Assistant] And, uh, when they discovered that he knew Sanskrit and he wanted to teach Sanskrit, he had actually taught himself, uh, how Sanskrit very, very well and was self-taught scholar.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] An hour officially, but it would go on for two or three hours. And it was just, it was something that I fell, I came to love very, very early on.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, and just could not get enough of, I mean, every grammatical rule and every exception, I would just...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, you know, memorize and, and, uh, discuss and I loved it.


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[Assistant] And at that point I started to realize that I could actually have a career doing what I love. And that's when I started


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] To go in the direction of religious studies. There was no religion program at Boise State University, so instead I went into philosophy, which was excellent training.


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[Assistant] And then, uh, from there, uh, to Oxford University for the Masters and PhD, and this time in Religious Studies, in Hinduism in particular.


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[Assistant] So, we were admitted to Oxford University. Oxford Centre for Hindu Studies does not admit its own students.


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[Assistant] Then we received some of our teaching and instruction and guidance from the Oxford Centre for Hindu Studies, but most importantly our Vaishnav community.


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[Assistant] That it, it really, uh, Shaunakarishi Prabhu there has cultivated a community of scholar practitioners.


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[Assistant] Which is so rare to find. Looking back, I realized that that was one of the most important factors in me being able to


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Maintain my Krishna consciousness while pursuing rigorous academic study was the fact that I had a community of Vaishnava scholars


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[Assistant] Overestimate the importance of the Oxford Centre in my Krishna consciousness as well as in my academic development.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Like, key moments where it was really like...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, you know, a moment of tension or explosion or self-doubt. It was more like, uhm, you know, a constant, uh, knocking, a constant hammering, a constant drip, drip, drip of this tension.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And I've always really been part of both my academic pursuit and my Krishna conscious life. That tension between faith and reason or faith and doubt.


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[Assistant] Maybe instead of tension we can say that dialogue, that dialectic, uh, that debate is always...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Been there. Uh, and it comes up in different ways at different places.


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[Assistant] Or not. Does the view of history match the Bhagavatam's view of history? Or, uh, um, questions of, of, um, eternal truth versus relative truth, uh, um, uh, and temporary truths. The question of


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[Assistant] Of the origin of truth, is truth created by human beings? Is it a human phenomena, religion, or is it a divine phenomena? Is it Golokera Premadhana, Harinam Sankirtan, or is this a sociological event that takes place because of certain historical contexts and reasons? This last one I mentioned was, is probably


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The historical issues and the dating issues are an initial


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[Assistant] So, so what that's, that scholar described, I mean, I, I think that's a, that's a typical uhm, you know, kind of liberal Hindu way of, of approaching the dating question.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, the question of dating historicity, we have to go back to the very nature of the issue and ask ourselves why and when does it become such a big issue for our faith? Uh, because here's the thing.


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[Assistant] Uh, we have to, we have to question the question itself. This is what I mean to say. The question of dating, when we raise it, we have to question that because we


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So many of us work in a environment that is saturated by the Judeo-Christian tradition.


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[Assistant] Is supermost. It's kind of overarching. It's always present and we're always working in relationship with it.


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[Assistant] And this is true in India for reasons of colonialism, but also reasons of modernity, uh, that are present to this day. And of course here in the United States, this is always the case. And for the Judeo-Christian tradition, God reveals truths through history. History itself is the work


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Where it happened, exactly where is the evidence, the historical evidence for that question, is crucial to the faith of Christians. This is, this is uhm,


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[Assistant] Very, uh, important to remember. And this is why there's been such excellent, um,


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[Assistant] Uh, historical work done in the Middle East, for example. I remember the first time when I uhm,


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[Assistant] When I was studying world religions in an academic context, there's the question,


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[Assistant] I remember scholars were debating, it happened in 70, in the year 70 CE, and scholars are 80, and the scholars, they were debating, did it happen in the first six months of the year, or the second six months of the year? And I remember going, really? I mean, you have the ability to figure things out that closely? Do you know that in Indian studies,


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[Assistant] In Sanskrit studies, if we can date a text to within two to three hundred years, we consider ourselves very accomplished.


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[Assistant] Right, so if a scholar says that the, this text was written between 200 BC and 200 AD, that's a 400 year spectrum, we think we did very well. Right, now you come later in history, it's a little easier to date things. But the point being is that this is not just


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[Assistant] Initially, scholars saw this as merely a failure on the part of the Indian mind. To not be able to record dates properly. But we have to recognize


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[Assistant] Uh, Vedic culture from the perspective of Vaishnav culture.


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[Assistant] It's going in circles and the same ideas return, the same people return over, the Lord returns again and again through avatars. Scriptures are revealed and then they disappear and then they're revealed again.


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[Assistant] Uh, there's two different varahas. One is described as white and the other is described as red.


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[Assistant] The Acharyas say, oh, this is Kalpabhedha. This is a difference in different cycles. So both things could have happened. One happened in this cycle, one happened. So there's no need to


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[Assistant] Looking, history is not going anywhere. It's going in circles, right?


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[Assistant] We are going somewhere through the circles of history. But history as a major phenomenon?


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[Assistant] Uh, emphasis on the question of dating and historicity. I do not mean to say by this,


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[Assistant] That oh, this is all mythology, but the truths within them are important.


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[Assistant] I think they are missing something very important. This is a modern view that is not held by any of our Acharyas. So it is true. It happened. It is historical truth. But when it happened, where it happened exactly, and where is the archaeological evidence?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] These are questions that have never been important until the arrival of Christianity on the scene. Then we adopt that sense of importance and we learn, we are taught that your faith must depend upon, uh, the, um,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The, the, the, the ability to date the text as the text itself says.


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[Assistant] That unless we can find archaeological evidence for that dating, your faith has no basis. And my question is, why today should we base our faith on that point?


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[Assistant] When it has never been based, when that has never been the basis of our faith. It has been the basis of other people's faith, but not ours. So why should we do it today?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yes, very, very nicely put, Prabhu, very nicely put. In this regard, can I share with you one conversation, uh, from Srila Prabhupada?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Some academic intellectual point I'm making, which...


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[Assistant] This is really, I mean, an essential part of our tradition.


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[Assistant] You and I both know how emphatic Srila Prabhupada was about the fact that these are not, our Kathas, our scriptures are not just mythology in the chief sense of being.


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[Assistant] Now I want to read this one conversation or show you this one conversation.


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[Assistant] So you can see how striking it is what Prabhupada is saying here. Okay, so this is a morning walk conversation and this is, Prabhupada is discussing


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, in regard to publishing with some of his editors. So Jayadvaita Maharaj is there and others are there. Uh, so, uh, I'll just read from the top. It's not very long.


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[Assistant] There has been discussion amongst many of the members of the press and the Sanskrit editors regarding the actual place of Narsingha's pastimes.


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[Assistant] So I told them that on the occasion of our travel to South India, we visited this place, Ahobilam, and the panditas, they have scriptural reference from the Brahmandapuran and Nrsingapuran that the place


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] is actually mentioned there and it has been recognized by Ramanujacharya and many of the great Alwar saints and yourself have already told me


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Twice, personally, that this was the actual place where it happened.


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[Assistant] And on top of the mountain there, there is the pillar, iron pillar, which is the symbol of the spot where Lord Nrsingadev killed Hiranyakashipu. So for the benefit of all these devotees, they were just requesting your actual confirmation. Prabhupada, confirmation or no confirmation, Nrsingadev is our worshipable deity. That's all. Why are you bothering where, where he killed Hiranyakashipu? You worship him. That's all.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] They, they just wanted Jayadvait.


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[Assistant] So whether it's the first duty to investigate where from the disease has come or to cure him. Which is important? To cure.


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[Assistant] Similarly, Nrsingadev might have done this or here or there, but he is our worshipable deity. That's all. Why bother with unnecessary things? We know Nrsingas everywhere. Andantarastha paramanuchayan. That is the conclusion. Jaya Dvaita.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] We were just afraid that if we published a picture that was not correct, you might


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Jayadvaita, we were afraid that if we were to publish a picture that is not correct. Prabhupada.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So when it is disputed, why should you publish that picture? It is controversial. You should not print. The controversy is only among the


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Prabhupada, whatever it may be, as soon as there is little controversy, I explained yesterday. And then Prabhupada goes on to describe the crow and, uh, talfut, uh, logic that, uh, uhm,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He says, as soon as there's some controversy, avoid it. That's all. Tal, fruit and crow. You worship Nrsingadev.


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[Assistant] Nisimhadev is everywhere. Why Nisimhadev should be confined? He was here. He is everywhere. As he is everywhere, he is here also. That's all. Finish the business.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, I think it's very well stated, Prabhu. If, if you see what Prabhupada is doing, means it is clear


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Throughout the conversation, I mean, Yasodhananda Prabhupada is giving so much evidence, right? Alvars, yourself, Ramanujacharya. But throughout the conversation, Prabhupada is insisting on this point.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Not that- he's not denying that it happened, number one. He would never do that, like we said. He- he did not-


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[Assistant] We are convinced Krishna appeared. We are convinced he appeared here because Mahaprabhu revealed it. The six Goswamis revealed it.


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[Assistant] But even there, notice the difference in how we see that historical location.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, compared to just regular, we can say academic history, right, or Western intellectual history. When we look at Vrindavan, we say this is the location where Krishna performed his pastimes, but you cannot see it.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] With those eyes of love, that spiritual vision, then you can see the actual Vrindavan, which is covered over by the current


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] A vision that you have, right? So we hear, for example, that Radha Kund from Vrindavan Mahima Amrita, Radha Kund's banks are covered with stone that is gems and coral and rubies and all of that. It is, it is, it's, it's an amazing place, not made of sandstone, right? So is this Radha Kund? Yes, it is Radha Kund, but to see it, you need to go


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Beyond history, right? You need to transcend history. It's a...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It's a, a trans-historical perspective, I should say.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Not ahistorical, because we believe it is historical. It's not non-historical. It's trans-historical. It starts with a historical location, but it goes far beyond it. And that's what Prabhupada is arguing in this conversation. He's saying, our perspective is trans-historical.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So why are you limiting Nisingadev to the point of Ahobilam, that pillar, as his point of origin and his location?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yes, precisely, very well put. This is not the hill I want to die on. And that's what I realized early on.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] When, when did it become so important to my face? The exact year of the text composition?


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[Assistant] All throughout my childhood, this was never a topic of our conversation.


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[Assistant] In any Bhagavatam class I attended or discussion, except when we were discussing specifically


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[Assistant] And to, to make important for me that has been imposed upon me willingly in most cases.


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[Assistant] This is the biggest mistake that people make when we go into insider-outsider debates, academic-non-academic debates.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Is that faith versus reason, faith versus scholarship? Is that we, we don't set the terms of the debate. We don't, we don't, it's like, it's like, you know, taking someone else's exam, the questions have been set for you and, and someone else is marking the exam and you're asked to sit and take the exam. Why should we be in that position?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And then we can take the exam because we know that it is on terms that we are appreciating, that we are understanding. Otherwise it becomes a very, very difficult proposition.


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[Assistant] Right, if we don't, we have to first interrogate the terms of the discourse. And that is something that we learn very early on when we go into this academic context, is that the most important thing about the debate is not who answers, is not what the answers are, right? That's not the most important aspect of the debate. The most important aspect is what are the questions being asked? And if


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You have input on the questions, then the answers are not that difficult, frankly speaking. I mean, they're difficult.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So both of your questions are excellent Prabhu. On the first one, what I mean by the terms of the debate is what you said earlier about assumptions. There are certain assumptions that are presupposed behind any question that is asked.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And to uncover those assumptions and ask ourselves,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Are these the right assumptions, the starting points, the axiomatic truths, the perspective, the world perspective that I want to begin with? Or is this something that I have adopted without a proper consideration, right?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Take my, uh, students to, uh, visit, uh, different places of worship, uh, as part of their world religions class.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now when we went to the Hindu temple, a young man, this was not an ISKCON temple.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, but a very nice young man, also a college student, gave my students a tour of the, uh, of the temple. And at the end he asked for questions. And one of the students, they asked the question, uhm,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So can you tell me your main beliefs that make you a Hindu? And the boy said, oh, good question. And then he thought, and then he struggled. And he said, well, uhm, we're, uh, vegetarians. Uh, wait, that's not a belief, right? Uhm, so we do a puja every day at home. Uh, wait, that's not a belief. Uhm, so he eventually got a few things.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But afterwards he came up to me and he said, Professor Gupta, uhm, what was the right answer to the question? You're a professor, please help me for next time.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And I said, you know, it's not a question of the right answer. You have to question the question itself. Here's the issue. Protestant Christianity defines its faith based on beliefs.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] These, if you believe these four or five things, you are a Christian.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] We have never defined ourselves based on belief alone. Beliefs are important.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But practice is just as important, even perhaps a little bit more. We see the character of the sadhu, that's how we know this is a sadhu. Then we investigate, oh, what is your exact theology, Vedanta, this, that, but first we must see the character of the person, right? Their lifestyle, their behavior. So I said, immediately you should, when the question arises, you should say, actually,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Besides the belief, I want to tell you what is important to me as a Hindu. What makes me a Hindu and the practice, our lifestyle is just as important. So this is an example of what I mean is that embedded in the question was certain assumptions about religion and


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[Assistant] It's the ability to uncover those assumptions and question them.


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[Assistant] Yeah, with, so, so just on one thing, I, on a practical level, I would turn the question on that person. I would say, why is this evidence so important to you? You're asking for the evidence. Why is it so important to you? And make them search themselves.


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[Assistant] To raise the question, oh, why is this evidence so important? Oh, because unless you can point to the evidence, how can you believe it? And that's where I would say.


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[Assistant] Ah, that, that leap is not true for us, right? That we don't need to dig in the ground to find the piece of pottery that gives me faith.


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[Assistant] Our model of understanding, that has not been our epistemology in the, in the Vaishya tradition.


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[Assistant] And for us, there are other things that are more important in terms of appreciating the evidence, in terms of building our faith. So uhm,


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[Assistant] So yeah, but now to your question about, about, uh, is that what faith is? So, so this is a really...


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[Assistant] Vaidusha pratyaksha, Jiva Goswami says. This is the basis of shastric.


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[Assistant] Searching through texts for manuscripts for finding the date of it at the end, that is another form. These are many forms of facts, many forms of evidence. The question is exactly what you said.


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[Assistant] That it's, it's, it's which ones are we going to place importance? It's not that our faith is unfactual. No, it is factual. But which facts are we basing it on?


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[Assistant] You have decided that a certain body of facts is the most important and you're going to judge me based on those, that body of evidence. Why should I use that as the standard, the measure? That is simply giving you the power to determine my faith, right?


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[Assistant] And when that has never been the measure of my faith or the faith of my ancestors, my acharyas.


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[Assistant] There is no faith in the absence of facts that are verifiable. And I think this goes to your second, second question to me, which was, what is the nature of faith? Right? And this is of course a very deep and very difficult question that has been


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[Assistant] Right, so there's so much to be said, but let me say a few words.


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[Assistant] We make a mistake when we think that faith is even possible without


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[Assistant] Uh, in a, without, in a, in a, in a, in a purely blind way, subtracted from everything else around it. Faith is something that is composite, right? Faith is something that has many different pieces to it that come together to create faith, right? So you have a Shastric knowledge. Gyan is part of faith, right?


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[Assistant] Not all kinds of jnans. Certain kinds of jnans are detrimental to faith. But without knowledge, samandha jnans at least, there's no such thing as faith. Experience is a part of faith. Only knowledge from a book is not going to


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[Assistant] Right, so just experience and just knowledge is not enough.


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[Assistant] There has to be some sense of promise, some wonder there that what I am studying is more than I can, I can, um, wrap my head around that I can perceive and understand, right? So faith has many pieces to it. And sometimes one piece may be a little weak. And so we say my faith is not steady, but it is a mistake to think that faith is


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[Assistant] What is left over? So, so some people think if you remove knowledge,


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[Assistant] You remove evidence, you remove experience, then, and you still believe, then that is faith. No.


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[Assistant] That is cheap sentimentality, which will definitely not last unless the other things are there.


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[Assistant] Right? So faith is something that is composite. It's all these pieces put together. And sometimes the knowledge, the evidence, the fact side can be a little bit, you know, it can get shaky.


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[Assistant] And of course, this is, I mean, my experience in going into academic world. Sometimes there are times where the facts side start to, you know, wobble a little bit. And so you have to...


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[Assistant] Lean more heavily on the side of experience and say, you know, I, I know Krishna.


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[Assistant] He's, he's, he's had an impact on my life. I've perceived him, not face to face, but I know that he's present, his hand at least, I've perceived in my life.


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[Assistant] That you have to lean that Krishna, I cannot know him fully. So I'm willing to accept a little bit of a gap in the intellectual side for now.


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[Assistant] Sometimes the intellectual side is very solid. I've got all the Shastri quotes and I understand it and all the facts are there. But something of experience is missing. You wonder...


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[Assistant] Is, actually is this, you know, is this a fact? Is Krishna there? Is, is, is there heaven and hell and Yamaraj and all of Devas and is this a, so there's no, there's not enough experience to, to support that, you know. So when we say that my faith is shaky, we have to understand


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[Assistant] We just have to lean more heavily on the others. Wait until the other side is again strengthened. Just like when I have pain in one leg, then I lean more heavily on the other leg, allowing that one to recover in due course of time.


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[Assistant] And therefore on a practical level, we should nourish that side, which is not our strength.


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[Assistant] Right, which is not our initial predilection, because you never know.


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[Assistant] When you will need it. Right now, your favorite side, you know, if, if like, if your intellectual is the primary path, okay, it's strong, it's good, you're feeling confident. But you never know when Krishna is going to pull the rug out from under your intelligence, right?


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[Assistant] And so it's, it's so important to nourish the other side, you know, and so in my own personal practice, I always try to make sure that that non-intellectual aspect of faith is always nourished. It's always.


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[Assistant] Uh, that I see that side of Krishna also, that is,


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[Assistant] Engaged with rasa, that is emotion, that is experience.


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[Assistant] That is the character of Vaishnavas that is the aspect of sitting humbly and allowing yourself to accept in a mood of wonder and mystery and appreciation.


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[Assistant] Without necessarily relying always on the intelligence to boost up that faith, right? So we have to be proactive about it. We have to nourish that side of our faith.


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[Assistant] You know, if we think in these four pathways, if we think of them as four legs of a chair, of a stool, of a table, then if one is weak, then we have to support.


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[Assistant] That one more. So that if in any case one starts to weaken, we have strength in the others. All the four of them are, are ability, uh, have.


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[Assistant] Unless you're Arjun, then he's Savyasachi, he's ambidextrous.


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[Assistant] Therefore, physical therapists will tell you, you have to do exercises for the other side, not for the strong side, for the other side to make sure that your body is properly balanced.


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[Assistant] Means we make a conscious endeavor to deepen our appreciation for that site.


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[Assistant] That we make sure that it is incorporated into our lives.


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[Assistant] That we appreciate and try to understand devotees for whom that is their area of uh, nourishment and strength.


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[Assistant] Right? In this way, we are always, uhm, in touch with the other aspects of bhakti.


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[Assistant] As well. This is why the nine processes of bhakti, even though one is sufficient.


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[Assistant] But the nine should be appreciated as a whole, as a group. The five most important aspects of bhakti.


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[Assistant] But the others should be appreciated. They should be considered as a group, not an exclusion, because


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[Assistant] You don't know when your relationship with your deities will be your lifesaver.


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[Assistant] But you never know when your relationship with your deities, even though that is not the focus, your deity puja is not the focus of it, but it may one day become your, your life saver.


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[Assistant] So, so there were two places, Prabhu, where you gave a couple of things and then we went in one direction very fruitfully, as you say.


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[Assistant] And, and that question we didn't get to, so I just want to say a couple words on that.


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[Assistant] In order to set the, to change the terms of the debate, one has to be an insider to the debate. Uh, you can do it from the outside also. Uh, with outside, uh, so, so by, by outside I mean this.


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[Assistant] Uh, under which people operate. This is human nature. There's nothing wrong about it.


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[Assistant] But if you want to question those assumptions, you can question them from the outside. You can stand up and you can protest. You can say, this is, this is wrong. You should not do it. Just like people, Hindus will sometimes come up, come to an academic conference.


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[Assistant] And say, you assume this and you said this, but why do you speak like this?


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[Assistant] And it serves to, uh, you can say, um, you know, it's like, uh, it, it, it serves to activate the discussion, to raise the question, to push. But if you, to set the terms of the debate, then the best way to do it is to become an insider, where you yourself become trained in the, the, that field of knowledge, understand the terms of the discourse,


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[Assistant] And then enter it as an expert, as a peer and say, I'm not satisfied with the terms of discussion here. I want to change the questions. Right? So the, if we, for example, we find more devotees, children becoming scholars, becoming academics,


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[Assistant] We can change the terms of the discussion.


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[Assistant] Uh, in ways that are academically rigorous and accepted by our peers, right? Because we are now


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[Assistant] One of them. We are part of them. We're never one of them in the sense that, uh, we are always Vaishnavas. We're always devotees.


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[Assistant] I'll give you the example of Shri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu in Sarvabhauma Bhattacharya. For me personally,


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[Assistant] That Leela has been a great source of inspiration in my academic seva. Because notice what Mahaprabhu does. He comes there and he takes on a humble stance first. And he says, yes, you please teach me what is Vedanta. He listens for seven days continuously. And after he has done that, okay, put in his tapasya, then Sarvabhaum Bhattacharya says,


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[Assistant] You have something to say and Mahaprabhu says, yeah, well, actually I have a lot to say. Uh, your whole discussion of Vedanta is very learned, but the terms of your discourse are not one that I accept. You're beginning from the assumption of impersonalism and I don't accept that.


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[Assistant] So for me, it was like in the academic world, not seven days, but seven years of listening humbly and taking in, taking in, taking in. And after you get your PhD, then finally someone will ask you, so you have something to say Dr. Gupta? And you say, actually, I have a lot to say on this matter. And you start publishing and you start speaking at conferences. And it's been my personal experience that just the presence of a devotee,


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[Assistant] There a scholar who's also a practitioner changes the nature of the discipline. You don't even have to be speaking just even in the audience. It changes the assumptions that it changes what the speakers can assume and what they are willing to just brush under their rug.


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[Assistant] They have to speak in a way that is appreciable to you, even in the audience. What to speak of you being on the panel itself and being one of the speakers.


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[Assistant] Devotees who have entered the field of book publishing. Devotees who have entered the field of, uh, uh, therapy and psychology. Devotees who have entered the field of, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, engineering. Devotees who have entered the field of medicine, right? Each one of them, in the course of time,


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[Assistant] Uh, so this is a very, very powerful mechanism, not just shouting from the outside, but speaking from the inside, from a position of being a peer, and not a bystander, but a peer, as someone who is respected by them.


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[Assistant] And the more that we as Vaishnavas, and especially, I mean, the younger generation, Vaishnava children are willing, and that means their parents, right, are willing to let them enter multiple fields and to be Vaishnavas in those fields, the more we will change the nature of the discourse in society and not simply be reactive to what's happening.


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[Assistant] But be actively, proactively part of shaping the way society looks. Being a participant in that process and not just an observer.


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[Assistant] While listening to Mayavada Bhashya or anything else is a big question. It's a big challenge. And especially in the academic world, in this dance of faith and reason, many, many persons have lost their faith in Srila Prabhupada and in Shri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu's approach and so on.


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[Assistant] So we have to be very careful in doing this approach that I'm discussing of becoming the insider, uh, because


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[Assistant] Becoming the insider doesn't mean that things become covered over so much that we forget that we are Krishna Das.


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[Assistant] Factor, I, I have to say that the most important thing, the most important thing that if from my experience to survive those seven days or seven years is, uh, having Vaishnava Sangha and the association of devotees.


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[Assistant] But especially important is having the association of other devotees who are engaged in the same type of seva of pursuit.


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[Assistant] Another person is there to help support. And when they are feeling the pangs of doubt, you are there to help support.


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[Assistant] And so before embarking on any kind of seva, the first thing we have to ask ourselves is, is there a community of devotees


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[Assistant] Not be afraid to go in. We should stick closely to that Sangha.


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[Assistant] And, and, and not just that Sangha, but more broadly, we cannot isolate ourselves to only one type of Sangha.


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[Assistant] But that, that thing is often absent. You know, we're going to our local temple.


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[Assistant] Who is pursuing religious studies with us, the situation can become frankly very, very difficult.


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[Assistant] And it was the most amazing experience of reason wedded with faith.


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[Assistant] In the context of other Vaishnavas who are working on the same pursuit, right? And I think that is what helped me.


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[Assistant] Uh, sustain my Krishna consciousness during that crucial period.


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[Assistant] Of, of the, the, those seven days, seven years, that is the most crucial. Once you are passed and they allow you to speak once, once the conversation becomes a dialogue.


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[Assistant] Then it's okay. It's still a challenge, but it's not that much of a challenge. When you're new, when you first entered, when you just arrived,


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[Assistant] And so I just wanted to mention that one point to complete that Sarvabhauma.


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[Assistant] Yes, that, that is, this is why that Guhyam Akhyati Prachati is so important. Because of that element of judgment that you mentioned. That, that space of faith without judgment,


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[Assistant] Uh, that is, that is really, really powerful. I mean, if you find that in your Krishna consciousness, that is like magic in any kind of field, in any service.


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[Assistant] I, I know you did not mean, you did not mean to say this, but I just want to clarify for the sake of our listeners.


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[Assistant] That in the academic world, we're, I mean, my experience has, it's been that if we think of it in an us versus them scenario.


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[Assistant] It, it is not very productive at all. And it is not reality. Uh, there, yes, there are.


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[Assistant] There are people who are on that side and they get a lot of, you know, YouTube notoriety and so on. So that aspect is there, but frankly,


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[Assistant] Our time in the academic world is not spent


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[Assistant] More broadly, outside the Vaishnava community in the academic world, we find


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[Assistant] People who are, uh, people are persons of great faith, who are on a shared


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[Assistant] Uh, uh, sense of mission and a shared sense of devotion is there also.


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[Assistant] You can, people who are more skeptical, but less, some with less. I mean, there's all, what I mean to say is that all shades are there of different types of individuals. Sometimes we have, we think of them, the academic or the scientific world in a monolithic way. We demonize them. They're all, you know, we have to just smash them.


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[Assistant] And, or other times, we consider themselves, them to be such, every one of them is just angelic. They're all, you know, perfect jnani's who know everything.


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[Assistant] And we have to just mold our own identity based on what they are saying.


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[Assistant] Both of those perspectives are not at all fruitful.


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[Assistant] And some of my, my most amazing mentors in the academic world who taught me how to balance this faith and reason together. One was a Sri Vaishnav and the other, uh, was a Catholic, right?


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[Assistant] And so we, uh, of course amongst the Vaishnavas there were also. But my point is that we can find that, that sense of shared, uh,


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[Assistant] Nicely put. Nicely put Prabhu. And I want to reaffirm what you said about our nature. That we really have to act according to our nature. And, and, and we


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[Assistant] I mean, for myself, I recognized at some point that whether I liked it or not, I would be doing this kind of thing.


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[Assistant] And, and, and give myself the proper training.


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[Assistant] And the tools and the association to do it well.


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[Assistant] Right? So, it's gonna happen one way or the other. Like, at that point you realize, this is, I'm incurable in this regard.


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[Assistant] I, I will, and someone may, may discover any situation I go into, I'm going to manage that situation. Right? This is, this is my nature. It's, it's not going to, there's not, I'm incurable in this regard.


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[Assistant] And so then you might as well give yourself the proper training and the skills and the association so that you


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[Assistant] You can do it well. You're gonna do it anyway, so you might as well learn how to do it well.


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[Assistant] And for me, that was a recognition that okay, I need to get proper training in the academic world.


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[Assistant] Because you put me in the academic world or you don't. I'm going to do this. This type of intellectual


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[Assistant] Type of analysis and work is just who I am. I cannot help it. So might as well figure learn how to do it well.


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[Assistant] So I think that's, that's how we have to encourage the younger generation is to recognize and instead of saying, no, no, no, no, this type of Gyan devotees don't do or no, no, no, this type of, you know, your,


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[Assistant] No, no, no, this, this, you, you, you have to do this. Let me show you how to do it properly. Here's the Sangha, here's the training and here's the Shiva for you to do. Now, of course, this is all easier said than done.


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[Assistant] You end up doing it in an amateurish way and it can become dangerous to you and to everyone around you.


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[Assistant] Yeah, so going back to that, you mean the point where I was saying that the historical aspect was actually an early question.


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[Assistant] Uh, first starting with the last, timeless, that these are truths that are eternal. It's not like, you know, yesterday Krishna wasn't God until...


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[Assistant] God is God, right? So Krishna is always the Supreme Personality of God, to take a simple example. Uh, but truths are timeless, uhm, uh, that


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[Assistant] Our religion, our faith, our tradition provides a comprehensive view of reality. Right? So we don't say,


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[Assistant] Uh, Krishna consciousness explains or describes this, but, uh, when it comes to, uhm, Japan, Krishna consciousness is irrelevant. It has nothing to offer. Uh, or when it comes...


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[Assistant] Japan or China, we have nothing to say. It's only relevant for India.


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[Assistant] It's, it's, it was, it was a perspective that works now but it didn't work 50 years ago.


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[Assistant] The nature of God, but we have nothing to say about the nature of this world.


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[Assistant] No, religion is comprehensive. It's a, it's a total system for understanding life, existence, experience, knowledge, everything, right? Human beings, animals, plants, the moon, the stars, everything is explained. Yeah.


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[Assistant] What Krishna says at the beginning of Bhagavad Gita is consistent with what he says at the end of the Gita, right? Now there are different things he says. One, he says,


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[Assistant] You know, you should fight because it's your honor and all of that, your kshatriya. And then he says, give up all dharmas.


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[Assistant] So we don't say, oh, Krishna is contradicting himself, we can't take him seriously. No, we say these two things fit together.


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[Assistant] One is your Swadharma, one is Parodharma. So we find ways of explaining it in a consistent fashion. So this is not just devotees. This is.


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[Assistant] Any person, I should say any theistic person at least, is, is concerned with these three items. Okay. Religious studies on the other hand, uh, academia is specifically focused on those truths that are relative, that are contingent, that are changing over time.


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[Assistant] of North Indian rivalries between kingdoms in the 6th century BC.


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[Assistant] Yagna Valkia is from the East and the others are coming from the West. And there's certain political trajectory that is happening.


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[Assistant] Now that question that I can guarantee no Acharya has brought up in their commentary. It is not a concern of ours.


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[Assistant] Right? Whether there's political rivalries and when they are located in history geographically between different kings. Okay, I shouldn't say never. Maybe someone has brought it up. But that is not our primary concern.


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[Assistant] In fact, not only is it not our primary concern, but it can feel like a downright threat to our faith. Because we are now taking that which is eternal and comprehensive and consistent, and we are pointing out things that are temporal and limited relative rather, and inconsistent or contradictory within it. In other words,


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[Assistant] And this is the fundamental issue that causes religious people to see intellectual


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[Assistant] And this is what gets some scholars to see religion as religious people as being rather naive.


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[Assistant] So this is the conflict set up between the two and I have


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[Assistant] Some suggestions, some reasons for why it doesn't necessarily have to be a conflict. That in fact, they can be quite useful to each other.


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[Assistant] Well put, uhm, and because the, the academic perspective becomes its own worst enemy.


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[Assistant] When it becomes reductive in relation to religion, it reduces religion to merely the social, merely the psychological, merely the political. Uh, and it is true that scholars are not interested in or equipped to understand the transcendent aspects of religion. And any honest scholar will say not that my method


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[Assistant] Proves that there is no transcendent aspect. That is a non-scholarly position. That is a position of faith.


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[Assistant] A religious position. That is a religious, atheism is a, is a religious position. It has certain convictions about the nature of God. So there, the methods of religious studies allow you like any scientific discipline.


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[Assistant] So you cannot disprove that something beyond the human senses does not exist. You cannot disprove that it does exist.


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[Assistant] An honest scholar, exactly. An honest scholar will say that


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[Assistant] Using historical uh, or social or political.


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[Assistant] Uh, forces. Historical political context. When that happens,


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[Assistant] Then say, say, I believe that God gave a revelation to such and such person asking that this be done. And I show you that that change that happened in the tradition was a direct result of political forces and social forces that were prevalent in society at that time in history.


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[Assistant] So this is true in every tradition that this challenge is there, right? And so it takes a lot of maturity and a lot of uhm,


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[Assistant] Shall I say faith, to be willing to risk studying and understanding what those socio-political historical explanations are in relation to one's tradition, in relation to the transcendent aspects of one's faith.


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[Assistant] Because, uh, the natural tendency of a religious person is to explain everything in transcendent terms. This is Krishna's way.


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[Assistant] The meeting of the two sides becomes a really great challenge. It's like I was saying, it was, it's set up for conflict, but it doesn't have to be that way. There can be a way to bring those perspectives together. And for that, let me give you a little example. As someone presents you with a very well, beautifully decorated cake to eat, right? So it's birthday or something like that, you get a cake. Now,


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[Assistant] There's two ways of appreciating that gift that you receive. One is to ask questions about it.


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[Assistant] Really, how did you make this? What ingredients went into it?


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[Assistant] Uhm, that, those decorations, is it, what kind of icing is it?


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[Assistant] And then, uh, uh, and, and, and where did you get the ingredients? And how long did it take to make?


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[Assistant] And the other option is do you cut a slice, sing happy birthday, cut a slice and just eat it. And let the flavor give you the full experience about that cake.


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[Assistant] Of course the flavor of the cake, that's when you really know. Otherwise it's licking the bottle of honey on the outside, right?


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[Assistant] And the scholar is going to say if you're too so busy licking the plate clean, how can you ever understand anything about what you're eating? Which is also a fact.


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[Assistant] If you're eating, enjoying that cake, are you actually concerned with questions about ingredients, et cetera? No, you've already made a decision to dive into it. You've committed to it, right? So you're going to be concerned about the flavor. So, but the point is both perspectives are crucial.


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[Assistant] Right? If you want to know something, as you put it so nicely beforehand, you can know it by experiencing it, by committing to it. Right? You put the cake in the mouth, you have committed to it. Whatever the ingredients are, they are inside you.


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[Assistant] Right? You've made a commitment to that. So that's, that's a very powerful way of experiencing it.


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[Assistant] And the person making the cake analysis can never appreciate fully what the cake is without tasting. But on the other hand, the person who is eating the cake


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[Assistant] When something is this close to you, you also are blind to certain aspects of that, uh, that thing that you're eating.


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[Assistant] How, you, you cannot see context, you cannot see history, you cannot see politics, you cannot see sociology, you cannot see so many of the contingent factors that went into your experience because you are this close to it. For that, you need some distance.


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[Assistant] To understand those aspects. So my point is certain things are understood up close and certain things are best understood from a distance.


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[Assistant] And both of those perspectives are essential if we want a complete understanding of what it is that we want to study, what it is that we love. And so why our preference may be up close.


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[Assistant] We should recognize the value in seeing something from a distance.


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[Assistant] Both sides, the academic and the intellectual, uh, and the devotional, can temper


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[Assistant] If you look at it only from historical, political, sociological perspective, you will scratch your head wondering


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[Assistant] You cannot make heads or tails of what, why is religion such a powerful force and why it's such a beautiful force and why it's so effective to bring about change in people's lives and in society. You will miss all of that.


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[Assistant] Taking advantage of the religious person's experience of eating the cake up close is essential in order to not fall into the trap of reducing religion. But on the other hand, for the devotee, for the devotional person, it is also essential to avoid the weakness of the religious position, which is this, that religious positions can become absolutist.


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[Assistant] Because we believe in an absolute truth, which we can never give up.


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[Assistant] That belief in an absolute truth can lead to absolutism. It should not, but it can. The sense that I'm better than everyone. I have figured everything out.


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[Assistant] That yes, my own religion has changed over time. It has absolute truth. There's no question.


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[Assistant] Right, that there can be some less lofty effects, uh, reasons for religions work in the world.


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[Assistant] The academic and the scholar and the devotee. And both can take advantage of the other's strengths in order to help themselves. They will never leave their positions, but they can benefit from the other. And that dialogue is what is so crucial for us today in the contemporary world.


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[Assistant] Where we see both examples of scholarship that is dismissive of religion and gives pain to religious people.


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[Assistant] And we see examples of religious bigotry and hatred that are born from this insular perspective on religion.


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[Assistant] So that dialogue is so crucial for our world today to have that. And we should not be afraid of it. That dialogue is difficult. Sometimes it's quite painful.


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[Assistant] But it is very useful and when done in the proper guidance and proper context and association can be very, very beneficial to us.


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[Assistant] Yeah, yeah. So where one begins and the other ends. Let me propose that


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[Assistant] Creating the proper circumstances in just the right historical, sending Prabhupada at just the right moment historically to do this work.


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[Assistant] Is it not possible in other words that Krishna's will can be manifest through society, through politics, through timing, through history? Of course it can, right? Krishna is controlling everything. So who is to say that


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[Assistant] His will is opposed when we create this false dichotomy, right? This versus this. Then we're forced to choose. Was it this or was it this? And what if these things are the same? What if Krishna's will


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[Assistant] A very nice article in the journal of Vaishnav studies describing the specific


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[Assistant] These two things, we can see it from transcendent or we can see it from material, but they are not different. They don't have to be a dichotomy.


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[Assistant] Look at the advantage of seeing it from both perspectives. When we see it that this is Krishna's will, that makes us, uhm, appreciate


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[Assistant] Krishna's power and his ability to do anything and everything for his devotee, right? That the importance of surrender to Krishna in the way that Srila Prabhupada demonstrated. When we see the historical circumstances, what does it teach us? That we have to be aware.


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[Assistant] So, if we, then we, we look at Prabhupada's circumstance, we can say, now what is the situation in my time in the United States? Okay, counterculture is not such a big thing anymore.


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[Assistant] But this is the area where it's really developing. Yoga is an amazingly mainstream thing and powerful thing. So this is one area where I can connect.


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[Assistant] His interest in Bhagavad Gita has skyrocketed since Prabhupada.


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[Assistant] So that awareness then, if I say, no, no, no, it's all Krishna's will, I will just go on doing what I'm doing. I close my eyes and then that is, that is, we're losing something, right? We are losing something by closing our eyes to the circumstantial, to the contextual, to the contingent.


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[Assistant] So there is great benefit in seeing the same story from two different perspectives. Both of them can work together to help our Krishna consciousness.


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[Assistant] He can, he can work through. Both Krishna has both options, right? So they're overlapping, but for us ultimately the Krishna narrative has to be overarching. Remember that's comprehensive, consistent.


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[Assistant] So that has to overcome everything. So I prefer to see them not as somehow there's Krishna and then there's the force of history and the two opposing forces are fighting each other.


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[Assistant] In many ways, he defeated all expectations that are reasonable socially, historically, politically. His, his results were completely unreasonable, right? They were completely illogical in the sense of beyond logic.


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[Assistant] Right? And no one can expect that kind of result. You can do everything Prabhupada did. You won't get that kind of result in just the right circumstance because it's not Krishna cut through history and decided I want to show my own power here. But also Krishna works within history.


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[Assistant] He works within culture and within politics and society. And that aspect was also clear in Propos.


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[Assistant] So I, I very much like these two things you said, cutting through and working within. Krishna, all of the whole story is Krishna only.


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[Assistant] No, it's not lost relevance and it's not been lost over time. Sometimes it becomes overshadowed.


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[Assistant] The tradition itself dies, essentially. If we lose the ability to question ourselves and to think critically through what we're studying. Now, the difference is simply that when we do it, when the Acharyas do it, they always begin from a position of faith, of conviction in


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[Assistant] This is in, in Christian theology, this is called faith seeking understanding, right? That you, you start with faith and you seek understanding.


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[Assistant] But the questioning aspect never goes away, right? And I'll give you one little example.


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[Assistant] Any scripts of the same edition and you look for changes, differences between them and you try to decide to the best of your ability.


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[Assistant] Uh, pinnacles of Western textual scholarship. The ability to do this.


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[Assistant] Uh, but we find that the Acharyas in their commentaries on Bhagavatam, they are, um, uh, very, uh, frequently pointing out, uh, uh, parthantara or parthabhedha, right, different readings. And they'll, this one and this one, and they'll explain both.


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[Assistant] Without, uh, without actually trying to reach a judgement as to which one is better, which one is right or which one is wrong.


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[Assistant] Let's say you take it like this, you take it like this. Here's the explanation for the first, here's the explanation for the second. Both explain something very nice.


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[Assistant] So it is not that the, the acharyas, the ancient mind was, was blind to the fact that human, uh, human beings can introduce variations within a text.


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[Assistant] Right? That's, that's a human contingent relative reality.


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[Assistant] Madhvacharya pointed out very clearly that many sections of the Mahabharata cannot be trusted.


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[Assistant] Because there are so many variations in the text in different editions of it, right? So certain types of readings also, uh, were, um, questioned or, uh, were a matter of concern to acharyas. Not that simply all were accepted. So the critical mind is all


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[Assistant] Not that we come to it from a place of faithlessness. That is for other people to do.


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[Assistant] No, for us, we begin with a place of faith, but we never turn the questioning business off. Otherwise the tradition will gradually die. It will shrivel up. It will lose its relevance and its robustness and gradually die and become just a shell only, uh, of, of this blind conviction and faith.


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[Assistant] The, the internal scholarship where we are doing ours, the study of our shastras and having internal debates about the meanings of particular verses and so on and so forth and, and how we should practice, but then also, um, uh,


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[Assistant] Those that engage with the broader world, with the outside world.


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[Assistant] Right, so on the one hand we have the Shastik Advisory Council, which you and I.


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[Assistant] Aspect of it is also so crucial that we want scholars, uh, we want thoughtful devotees who engage with the contemporary discourse, dialogues, issues of our time.


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[Assistant] Considering how accomplished we are in every field.


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[Assistant] It is actually a great embarrassment to see how little we have to say on any of these issues.


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[Assistant] I mean, just think about any seriously done theology of the environment.


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[Assistant] And yet, yes, there are, are ecological statements out there. You know, we, we love the environment. We believe all human beings are, are sacred. All life is sacred. Those things are there and they're not bad.


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[Assistant] But someone who has seriously engaged with all the implications of a theology, there are very, very few persons. I mean literally you can count them on your fingers.


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[Assistant] For a tradition that is over a billion people in terms of size.


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[Assistant] Think about Hindu, serious Hindu ethics written on issues like, like bioethics, for example.


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[Assistant] When I have to suggest, when people ask me for readings,


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[Assistant] You have an article here in some popular newspaper, an article there, maybe a short few words in this way, that way.


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[Assistant] But no one who has worked, I shouldn't say no one, very few,


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[Assistant] Engaging with the contemporary discourse. But what I mean to say is not just, here's what I think. Take it or leave it. Not that approach. I mean, I'm going to read seriously.


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[Assistant] What my Christian brothers and sisters have said. I'm going to read seriously what the scientists have said on the issue of environment. I'm going to read seriously on what Muslims have said. I'm going to read seriously on what secular humanists have said.


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[Assistant] And then I'm going to engage in a discussion that is already happening and I'm going to show how the Vaishnavas, how Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu's movement has something clear and


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[Assistant] Useful to contribute to that discussion that can help change the nature of the world, right?


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[Assistant] That is the outsider facing scholarship.


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[Assistant] And so rather than creating, taking on a, uh, uh, fighting stance with act, sometimes, you know, as devotees, we can take on a fighting stance. Oh, these are, these are a threat. These scholars, intellectuals, historians, they are a threat. Instead, we should


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[Assistant] We should include them in the sense of having our own department, our own field where we cultivate it, right, in the way


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[Assistant] That we wanted in the way that is appropriate for us. Look at the Catholic Church. There are pontifical universities where, yes, there are scholars who criticize the Church and so on.


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[Assistant] Both outside and within, but instead of just standing on the outside, I was saying earlier and shouting and screaming that, why do you say this about us? Better to have your own pontifical university where both the support is coming from people who are in a position of faith and commitment. And also the criticism is coming from persons who you can trust as position of faith and, and, and commitment to the tradition, right? That is.


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[Assistant] That we want our own institution of learning and our own community of scholars who can provide


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[Assistant] Support when needed, but also healthy criticism when needed.


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[Assistant] It will take for some time for it to happen, and that therefore also it's very difficult. It takes a lot of vision to invest in cultivating this because the results show up not in five years, not in 10 years, not in 20 years. They show up in the space of 50, 60, 70, sometimes a hundred years. You look at the great centers of learning in India or anywhere in the world. They were never, ever established and flourished in five years, 10 years, 15 years.


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[Assistant] I think you described it very well, that when it is instrumentalized, it will not have its effect.


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[Assistant] My scholarship isn't, it's just an instrument in order to convert X. It's just an instrument in order to put out a press release. It is only instrument to do this. It's an instrument so that when I go out to give lectures at Bhakti Vikshas, people will listen to me nicely. They'll respect me. That is why a PhD is useful. All of this is instrumentalizing education for its use and other goals. And for that,


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[Assistant] You will never reap the full benefits, the full potential of what education is meant for.


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[Assistant] Education has value that cannot be calculated in, uh, in, in short goal oriented sort of approach. It has, one needs a very broad long term vision. It's like planting an almond tree. You plant it for your grandchildren to harvest the fruits, right? And, and I think that, that is, as you said, it's very natural that it develops in a tradition over time.


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[Assistant] Even Prabhu, I wanted to say on the missionary work. This is a whole separate topic, but it is also, uh, a, a, um, a, a, we do harm to our missionary work also when we perceive it in, in the ways that you described that actually mission and dialogue are not opposite ends of the same spectrum.


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[Assistant] It's not conversion versus dialogue. When we think of mission as opposed to dialogue.


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[Assistant] Because going back to the very first place that we started this discussion.


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[Assistant] When we teach and mission is teaching, that is the heart of mission. When we teach, we always begin from where the person we are teaching is at. And that requires genuine dialogue and understanding. I must hear from you in order to know where you're at. That's the foundation of dialogue. And that is the foundation of mission also.


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[Assistant] Is dialogue and understanding. Mission is not opposed to dialogue.


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[Assistant] To our tradition, it's foreign to our sampradaya. We have never thought of mission in those terms. Mission is bringing a person by mind and by heart to a different place. And any movement in that direction is success, right? It's not an on and off switch.


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[Assistant] The problem with the word conversion is that it suggests an on-off switch. Converted. Blooped. Converted. Blooped. Right? Like it's a light switch. But this is not the case. Right?


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[Assistant] Conversion is that mission is a process. It's a journey of bringing people, moving them towards Krishna. And the best way to start that journey and to pursue that journey is by beginning from where that person is at. And that is what is the definition of dialogue. Hearing and speaking. Hearing and speaking.


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[Assistant] Faith is, I forget the wording exactly that you used, maybe you can correct me, but about rationality, you said the word rationality. I would not say that


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[Assistant] Faith is different or beyond rationality, because rationality is a very important component of faith. I mean, if you see Madhyamadikari,


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[Assistant] Is someone who is able to understand their faith through


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[Assistant] The scriptures through reason and to convince others about it also, right? Or is it, I'm getting confused.


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[Assistant] And, and, and, and therefore I, I, I worry a little bit about the metaphor of the mountains because to me it creates too much of a separation.


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[Assistant] Between the various, uh, aspects that faith is more than reason because it includes reason within it.


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[Assistant] That conviction that Krishna is the Supreme Personality of God and we are His servants. Even to that point, there's...


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[Assistant] There's the element of reason is always there, but as you were saying, it is insufficient because reason is just one component of faith and there is so much more, uh, to faith than that.


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[Assistant] Pure conviction, or faith we can call it, or, I don't, not, not faith, but, but your belief, let's say belief.


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[Assistant] And there are those who are on the extremes, uh, who are on the extreme of the circle of reason.


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[Assistant] Yeah, I'm not going to take faith in anything. I'm not going to trust anything. Only what my mind can figure out.


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[Assistant] You know, certain traditions say, certain religious traditions, my own experience is supreme. What I experienced that is true, right?


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[Assistant] So for a Vaishnava, the extremes of those circles are not a happy place. We want to be in a place where all of these overlap.


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[Assistant] No, that, that makes it very clear. Thank you, Prabhu, because that, that was my concern is sometimes, uh,


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[Assistant] That can lead to a slippery slope if we're not clear about that, that people think, oh, religious faith means irrationality and science rationality, but rationality is present in both.


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[Assistant] The, the, the question is what is the foundation of that rationality, right? And what is its goal? The rationality is, is merely a...


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[Assistant] A mode of thinking. And why should we give up any mode of thinking? The question is what is the foundation of that rationality?


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[Assistant] So sometimes people, I mean, it is clear you are not saying this, but sometimes people will speak of religion as, as, uh, as different from rationality as if religion is irrational. But I remember


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[Assistant] Going to your point about Ravindra Suraprabhu, how one time I was reading the commentary of Ramanujacharya on Sri Bhasya.


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[Assistant] All to prove that the Lord is not establishable purely on the basis of logic.


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[Assistant] But what was interesting is that to show that the Lord was not provable by logic, by Tarka, he was using logical, right? He was using logical thinking to prove that.


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[Assistant] Like in other words, logic rationality is a tool and a devotee is happy to use it when it becomes useful in Krishna's service and happy to leave it behind when it is simply an impediment in Krishna's service.


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[Assistant] So, so in that way we are, we are neither rationalist nor irrationalist.


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[Assistant] Rationality we accept and we say yukta vairagya. It's useful for Krishna's service. I will use it. But my identity, my, the basis of my faith is not exclusively on reason. My identity is Krishnadas. My faith,


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[Assistant] And, but when it is useful, I'm happy to use it. Just like that devotee in the, the, uh, Sakshi Gopal story, right? He reasons with Krishna. If you can talk, you can walk. Right? Now this is simple logic.


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[Assistant] But that rationality, that logic was useful.


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[Assistant] And Krishna was very pleased by it. It was very sweet for Krishna. Ah, good point. Nice point you're making. It's a logical point.


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[Assistant] Yes, yes, beautifully put. Because every rationality has to begin with certain axiomatic truths that cannot be proven through logic. And any, before applying reason, you have to begin some place. Reason has to stand on something.


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[Assistant] And what it is on is our axiomatic truths that cannot be


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[Assistant] Proven. Just like my Guru Maharaj, Hanuman Peshak Swami, he gives a very nice example of Euclid's Geometry.


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[Assistant] There is nothing that, it is beyond the senses. There is nothing that you can see, smell, touch, hear, taste.


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[Assistant] Your mind cannot even conceive of anything. In your mind, think of a point.


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[Assistant] But what you have thought of has some length, it has some width, it has some shape, it probably even has a color to it.


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[Assistant] How the Advaitans describe Brahman, neti neti neti neti, as the starting point. Now that is an axiom. How do you know that the point is right? That there is such a thing as a point. Those axioms of Euclid's geometry, the only way you know they are true is that they feel right. Right? And feeling means rasa. Something in us tells us, ah, that feels right to, to define a point like that.


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[Assistant] That the foundation has a rational, rationality is a tool.


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[Assistant] You have to ask yourself, what is the foundation of my rationality?


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[Assistant] What is, and that foundation will always be based


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[Assistant] On feeling. It will always be based on rasa, on bhakti, on shraddha, on trust.


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[Assistant] We are personal and everything around us is personal and relatable.


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[Assistant] This is an axiomatic understanding of the way that rasa works, that our world works.


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[Assistant] The scientific perspective may begin with a certain set of axioms.


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[Assistant] That the only things that are worth studying or perceiving or, or in understanding are those things that can be perceived by the five senses. Right? So everyone begins from some place that is unprovable and is heading towards some place that is unprovable. Rationality is a useful tool in between, but it doesn't define either the beginning point or the end.


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[Assistant] It can become a dangerous situation in our Krishna consciousness in the long term. If we're too lopsided on one side that we have to, first of all, recognize our nature and, and our proclivity and nourish that proclivity through, as we were saying, proper training and proper association, right? So that we do it well.


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[Assistant] Now I cannot sit in the Bhagavatam class with any devotee except for a Sanskrit scholar, because otherwise, it's too irrational, the whole thing. It's not, it's not at the intellectual level that I appreciate. No, then we know that, okay, something is,


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[Assistant] And as soon as we start to think it is the best way to serve Krishna, then we know our own Krishna consciousness is in risk.


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[Assistant] And so it ultimately comes down to that fundamental principle of Vaishnavism, right, of humility.


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[Assistant] And, and so if all this question of dialogue with others, dialogue with the world, being reasonable and questioning at the same time of our faith, all these things we talked about, this is all founded


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[Assistant] On humility, right? On the ability to do that. Dialogue requires humility because it requires you to listen to others.


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[Assistant] Right? And being willing to supersede rationality requires humility on the part of the scholar. Because otherwise you think my mind is so great it's able to understand anything. And anything beyond the rational world is not acceptable. That faith requires humility as its foundation.


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[Assistant] Right, so all of these things we've been discussing, the only way we have the capacity to do them as a Vaishnava.


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[Assistant] In other ways, fine, but as a Vaishnava, the only way we have a way to do this is through that foundation of humility. It has to be there underlying.


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[Assistant] That was amazing. Your ability to summarize everything we spoke of.


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[Assistant] Thank you for that. I have nothing to add or to subtract from what you just said. I think that's a good, good overview.


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[Assistant] To, uh, discuss all of these matters with you. It's so nourishing for my own Krishna consciousness to have your association like this today. I mean, whether this video gets any views on YouTube or not, it really, to me, it's, it's completely successful.


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[Assistant] For me to have your association in this way to discuss these wonderful topics, I really, really appreciated it. It was a really wonderful morning for me here in the US and I guess evening for you in India.


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[Assistant] Thank you. Thank you, Chetan. Thank you. Please accept my obeisance.


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[Assistant] So I lived my life alone, without anyone that I could really talk to.


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[Assistant] Until I had an accident with my plane in the desert of Sahara, six years ago. Something was broken in my engine.


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[Assistant] It is I had with me neither a mechanic nor any passenger. I set myself to attempt the difficult repairs all alone. It was a question of life or death for me. I had scarcely enough drinking water to last a week.


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[Assistant] The first night then, I went to sleep on the sand, a thousand miles from any human habitation.


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[Assistant] But my drawing is certainly very much less charming than its model. That, however, is not my fault. The grown-ups discouraged me in my painter's career when I was six years old, and I never learned to draw anything, except boas from the outside and boas from the inside.


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[Assistant] Remember, I had crashed in the desert a thousand miles from any inhabited region, and yet my little man seemed neither to be straying uncertainly among the sands.


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[Assistant] Not to be fainting from fatigue or hunger or thirst or fear.


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[Assistant] Nothing about him gave any suggestion of a child lost in the middle of the desert, a thousand miles from any human habitation. When at last I was able to speak, I said to him, but what are you doing here? Any answer he repeated, very slowly.


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[Assistant] As if you were speaking of a matter of great consequence. If you please, draw me a seat.


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[Assistant] Absurd as it might seem to me, a thousand miles from any human habitation and in danger of death, I took out of my pocket a sheet of paper and my fountain pen.


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[Assistant] And I told the little chap, a little crassly too, that I did not know how to draw. He answered me, it doesn't matter, draw me a sheep.


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[Assistant] But I had never drawn a sheep, so I drew for him one of the two pictures I had drawn so often. It was that of the boa constrictor from the outside.


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[Assistant] So then I did my drawing over once more, but it was rejected too, just like the others.


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[Assistant] This one is too old. I want a seat that will live a long time.


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[Assistant] By this time my patience was exhausted. Because I was in a hurry to start taking my engine apart. So I tossed off this drawing.


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[Assistant] And I threw out an explanation with it. This is only his box. The ship you asked for is inside.


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[Assistant] I was very surprised to see a light break over the face of my young judge. That is exactly the way I wanted it.


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[Assistant] Do you think that the sheep will have to have a great deal of grass? Why? Because where I live, everything is very small.


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[Assistant] There will surely be enough grass for him, I said. It is a very small sheep that I have given you. He bent his head over the drawing.


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[Assistant] Not so small that, look, he has gone to sleep. And that is how I made the acquaintance of the little prince.


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[Assistant] The Buddy Prince. The Little Prince, part 2. This is Rich.


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[Assistant] He told me that he would look about him for such an orphan child.


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[Assistant] One night he brought her here asleep and I called her Estella. Might I ask her age then? Two or three. She herself knows nothing but that she was left an orphan and I adopted her.


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[Assistant] So convinced I was of that woman's being her mother that I wanted no evidence to establish the fact in my mind.


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[Assistant] I had succeeded on behalf of Herbert. Miss Havisham had told me all she knew of Estella. I had said and done what I could to ease her mind. No matter with what other words we parted, we parted.


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[Assistant] Twilight was closing in when I went downstairs into the natural air.


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[Assistant] I called to the woman who had opened the gate when I entered that I would not trouble her just yet, but would walk around the place before leaving, for I had a presentiment that I should never be there again, and I felt that the dying night was suited to my last few


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[Assistant] By the wilderness of casks that I had walked on long ago and on which the rain of years had fallen since, rotting them in many places and leaving miniature swamps and pools of water upon those that stood on end, I made my way to the ruined garden.


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[Assistant] I went all round it, round by the corner where Herbert and I had fought our battle, round by the paths where Estella and I had walked, so cold, so lonely, so dreary all.