[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] On what the task at hand is. And we, we, I think we didn't do the math, we should've done. I think we, I think we traversed almost 3,000.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But I think that's, it's an important time in our experience on that part of the hunt because it's about being incredibly intentional with your move. It's not like, okay, let's just get over there and then we'll see what happens when we get close. No.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] From this step to that rock, everything hangs right now. And you put that in your head and you slow down and like a chess match, get from here to there. And that's all that matters in this moment. And we, we did, it was like almost a moment of like, had a little chill, like, damn man.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Kind of looked back at Randy and Dale and I looked at each other and Dale's running the camera behind me and Randy just kind of says push.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And so we started to move, you know, and it was, it went from a call him in situation, right? Yep. To a go stalk him situation. And that, that's like,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] There's like a flip in your head when that happens because it goes from, I'm on a, I found a nice spot where I can take probably 180 degrees. I've got predefined shooting lanes. I'm controlling this situation. This is my situation and he's going to come into it and I'm going to respond. That's an advantage, right? And now.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] At that moment, you know, you can't see the bull. All we can see is his tines and his antlers moving kind of through some bush.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I think 50, 40 to 50 maybe, yeaah.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So, you know, we're sitting there and I think probably like a minute or two go by and the bowl stands up.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And then we see his head in his eyes and he's moving around and he kind of takes a step forward into this tiny little window that we're looking through and his head, Dale again, don't fuck move.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And then all of a sudden he kind of turns again. He takes a step forward. He takes another step forward. He exposes his body and another step forward and he's gone.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] We hear a little more scraping, and then we hear like some heavy, what I thought was scraping, and then you hear that kind of like, hollow sound of uhm, of uh,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Gone. The opportunity had vanished and it happened over the course of just a couple of minutes, but


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] To have, you know, gotten that entire distance through all that time and energy and teamwork and then had eyes, eye to eye at I think 40 to 50 yards with that bull. For me, maybe the bull of a lifetime.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And uh, you know, it just is what it is. It just happened. Time happened. The experience happened. I'm incredibly grateful for it. But then it was gone.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I deserve this. We put the time in. We have four days.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You know, frustration and disappointment and all these things and we're on our last morning.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And there is pressure to break down camp and get out of dodge because


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Both his, Carson's situation and mine, being higher on the hill.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] would have put us in a better position. And that's, it's a funny thing cause it, I really kind of,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I agree with that more. And I, I am also taken away. Like the, you need to really, archery, elk hunting. You need to apply.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Like focused intention on every decision you make. Oh yeaah.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Well over 2,000, probably 2,500 or 3,000 vertical feet. Yeah, uhm, multiple times.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The hard way kind of mindset thing, but Brad Bush earned his elk. So that guy, that guy did it. And uhm, there's definitely something about the team aspect, which I love, but he, you know, he's got, he's got a stripe. He made it happen on his own accord through his own knowledge, his own research, his own intention.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] His own ability and skill. And there's something about that that I think most archery elk hunters are actually aspiring to. Like that's the long game, is to prove your own individual ability and competence in the long run. And so, us walking away without a bowl.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Actually, Carson said something the other day in camp and I think it was the morning after it had kind of like rained on us pretty hard and he said, there's no, and you were quoting somebody, not to attribute it to you, but there's no bad weather, there's only bad gear. Is that right? Yea. I think that's such a tremendous statement because


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, as we've been going through this, we have been putting our own gear to the test. Whether it's uhm, you know.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The most hardcore end user could and that is priceless for us. We have actually a responsibility to put our stuff to test because our name is behind it. You know, we trust it and believe it and we can't make the great products that we do without living the life the way that you do. And so these types of experiences


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Part of life is figuring out how to deal with adversity and developing a mindset and an attitude and being conscious of that. And whether you're going after a new job or...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You know, a relationship thing or you're overcoming some disaster in your life, like this type of activity, public land elk hunting, archery especially.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Literally, in my, in my view, 50 yards, walk away in a moment and then, and to come to terms with that internally and mentally and not assign blame or excuse or external factors with the poor camera guy. Poor guy. Geez, what a bullet sponge.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And face, face it with a smile and clear eyes, you know, and I wouldn't, I wouldn't change a single thing about this. And as a matter of fact, if you guys want to go tomorrow, my bag is open.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] participation as a hunter in the community. Because if you're not playing a role in RMEF's mission, you're, you're actually like working against it in a way. So you, you know, it's, we, we can't support the organization enough and I think what they're doing is just tremendous. It's never been, uhm, a more important mission.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You know, Gerber's been in the outdoor business for a very long time. Uh, we're the number one provider of knives and tools to the US military, right? And we actually offer, uh,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And know that, you know, this stuff, nothing about


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] We love what we do. Love it because we get to participate in this community and support it by building products and playing a role in conservation.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Um, you know, there's a lot of correlation. And actually, if you know veterans, you know, you should really encourage them to participate in specifically archery elk hunting because I think it's an incredible way to, to kind of keep that part of your life, um, you know, active. Yeah. Cool.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Welcome to the Elk Talk Podcast with Randy Newberg and Corey Jacobson presented by the Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Perfect. So, with that, I got a timer on Cory, we're gonna see how quickly we can do the sponsor plugs. Really? Yea. Okay.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So go to Gerbergear.com and you will get all the scoop on Really, Really Good.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, I don't know if, not just L, heck, everything.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Elk, deer, antelope, whatever you need a knife for, they got it. Fish, multi tools.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And then, we're gonna get into this one in great detail because today we're gonna talk about the Wyoming application stuff. So,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Real quickly, what you're going to hear us talk about is the GoHunt Insider. Go to GoHunt.com, sign up for the Insider and get $50 of free store credit when you use the promo code ALKTALK. Actually. And that's all we'll say about them for right now because we're really going to drill down into that later.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Application booklet for non-residents. And again, the first state out of the chute, if you want to apply for an out tag is Wyoming. The deadline is January 31st.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Hiking with a heavy pack. He says on the podcast you both mentioned that hiking with a heavy pack is your best method for preparing for elk season. This is true. Nothing else you can do in the gym prepares you quite like doing the actual activity.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He did, he did get into a good explanation of the benefits of strength training.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So I, I might have to add that to my hiking regimen, but anyhow, Peter, we, uh, someday you might end up being on this podcast if you're not careful.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So I just kind of wanted to close that loop because when that email came in last week, I thought darn.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Well, and folks are going to hear me say and make a lot of reference to the Go Hunt Insider as we do this because right now I've got last year's Go Hunt Insider article up.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And it lists the bull to cow ratio, the harvest success, and the percent of public land in each of these units that you can hunt with your general Wyoming elk tag. These are some crazy success rates.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I'm not sure if that's the same in every one of the general units or if that date is slightly variable. I should know that, but I don't.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And it's a point system that's a preference point system for 75% of the tags and the other 25% of the tags for each hunt code go in a random draw.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, la- last year, if you had everyone above two points...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I drew the general tag and if you had two points,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Your odds were 58%. In the special draw, the more expensive draw, if you were interested in the general tag, everyone above one point drew


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Or at least a hunt you can do every second or third year if you're building points.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You've proven, you and the guys you go with, you guys have proven it's a pretty darn good hunt.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Well, 60% or 60 of those tags are going in the lower price regular draw.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So if you then go to the 60 tags in the regular draw, 75% of those are going based on the preference points each applicant has. So that means 45 of the 60 are going in the preference point side.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That say in Wyoming, a non-resident hunting in a designated wilderness area. So that's not a wilderness study area. It's not just wild, unroaded country. We're talking about something that has been designated as a wilderness area under the Wilderness Act of 1964. You need a guide.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And they can only take two non-residents per year. Yep. And they can receive no compensation, no gratuity, no anything. So, it better be a good friend or family member.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] When you get into the argument, some people trying to defend it will say, oh well, you know, it's for your own safety. Give me a break.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So for some reason, and this is the, to point out the folly of that logic, when I'm on the Montana side, because I'm a Montana resident,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I'm gonna have all my faculties, I'm gonna be smart, I'm gonna know what I'm doing, I'm able, I don't need big brother to keep me from getting hurt in the wildness of the wilderness area. But as quick as I go a mile south and I cross the Wyoming border, there I've lost all my common sense and


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now all of a sudden when you moved to Idaho, you need somebody to hold your hand because you're not going to be safe back in that wilderness area you hunted most of your younger years. Because now when you moved to Idaho, you lost all your common sense. It's like, come on folks.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So we're, we're kind of poking fun at that folks. Just know that it's there. So when you apply in some of these units that have a lot of wilderness area.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Know that some of that is going to be off limits to you unless you go with an outfitter or you have a resident who can serve as your companion or whatever the proper term is there.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And I said that there's some mitigating reasons as to why I don't get too worked up about Wyoming and this law.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And here's what it is. Wyoming is more generous in tag percentages to non-residents than most other states. Absolutely. I think that, I think, no, I might have this wrong. I should know it, but I don't.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And what they do is they say, all right, we issued 3000 of them as limited entry tags.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That's what they put then in the general pool. So some years their tag quotas fluctuate. So I'm, I'm just making these numbers up. Let's say this year they're going to give away 4,000 non-resident limited entry tags.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That means in the general tag pool, they have to put the other 3,250 in there.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So, it's not this 10% cap like you see in a lot of states. They're more generous to non-residents with the total tags they give out. So, if everybody can just look at all of those things combined before they get themselves too wrapped around the axle.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That, I think that allows Wyoming to allow a ton of opportunity for their residents and still maintain higher quality.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah. If you'd look, I mean, Go Hunt has a really good map here of what is the, the core grizzly bear recovery zone.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And then what's the actual occupied range where you could run into grizzly bears?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And it creates a unique dynamic, especially in archery season.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The amount of grizzly bears I see and sign and my too close encounters, everything's been during archery season in September.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I suspect it's a bit unnerving, uh, you probably end up reading crazy stories, hearing crazy stories and there's no doubt there's a risk and there's a bit of


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, head on a swivel sort of feeling that you're always looking and listening and, and it adds a different element to your hunting. But I, I just tell people don't, you know, don't.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And you know that in September, the Grizzlies are in what they call hyperphasia. They are looking to put on.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Step around a log or come around a corner and you see a boned out carcass, out carcass laying there. I remember one year we were filming in Montana, just not too far north of Yellowstone Park. Come around this little knoll and there is a dead out carcass laying there.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I don't know where the bear was. He wasn't there on the carcass, but there were bear tracks everywhere.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And then going through this insider Wyoming strategy article at the beginning now is talk about things that are new for the upcoming year. And that's the very first stuff I read because I've been doing this since Moby Dick was a minnow and I worry that


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Plus, if you want, let's see, then they, so they also charge you an application fee of $15. So, it's $1283 for the regular, or for the special, if you add in your $15 fee. So what's two and a half percent of that?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, when you figure that I have me, Marcus, Michael, Dan, Matthew, Larry. Yeah.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So this year though, I mean, you look at that $110 just out of thin air, gone. I'm going to have to rethink. It's like buying a $110 raffle ticket with really low odds. I don't know if I'll apply for Bison in Wyoming this year with that two and a half percent transaction fee.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I'm, I'm only gonna list off the first one they have on their list just so people have the example, but GoHunt gives a, uh, let's see, 31 units.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It's no secret, everyone knows that Unit 7, southeast of Casper, is a high demand.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The number of points required in the regular draw was 9 points drew at 100%.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Have some great hunting. I, I know that because one of these hunt codes my son had to tag this year. And uh,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But I'm looking at some of them, and a lot of people think it takes a bajillion points to draw some of these. Now, understand that sometimes, some years it just fluctuates. And some years the points it takes in the regular draw is actually less than what it takes in the special draw.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, but I'm looking at some of these. Most of them are, you know, close to maximum points. Uh, some of them are...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Two less than maximum points. This one's three less than maximum. Here's one that in the regular draw took three points and in the special draw took two points.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Searching and filtering, and this wasn't my job, I'd be fired. Yeah.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So the point of all that discussion folks is that some people will say, well, I can do all that with


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] What's a type 1 tag versus a type 2 tag versus a type 9 tag? And they also have type 4 and type 6. But to answer that, you really have to look at their regulations and, uh,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] On the wrong type of tag, they put in somehow, I don't know how they do it, but type one and type two tags are usually an antlered animal or an either sex tag.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now type 3, uh, usually, I think those usually apply for deer. Uh, type 4 is just about always a cow tag or antlerless tag.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And Northwest Wyoming that have a type nine season. The units that have a type nine season, which is archery only.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] To hunt the archery elk season in those units, you, most situations you have to actually apply for the type 9 tag. So you'd apply for 38-9 instead of 38-1. So just know that there's some


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Are rifle tags during the, the normal part of the season. And very often in those units, if you have either the type one or type two.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Well, one of the things geographically that you deal with in Wyoming is as you go from the east part of the state to the west part of the state, the amount of private land decreases and the amount of public land increases.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So, as a general rule, you're gonna see better draw odds in, uh, areas with all other things being equal. If access is a problem, you'll usually see better drawing odds. As you get further west in some of these really good units, access isn't an issue.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And uh, you're, you know, there are some olds in Wyoming and those are pretty much just about all in the western part of the state. So there are, if you have access, there are some really, really good units in I'll say northeast, central, maybe even south central parts of Wyoming.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeaah, and Wyoming does you the favor in the regulations. I haven't looked this year, but in past years they always have a little asterisk by that hunt type. And the asterisk says, Caution. Access is very difficult in this unit.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I think they probably do that as a preemptive measure because they get tired of all of the phone calls saying, I didn't know that I couldn't find a place to hunt in this area, can I get my money back?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, one of the good parts when you're just thinking about your overall and, you know, part of why we're doing this is we've said we want people to go elk hunting every year. Wyoming is the first state out of the gate.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And the good news is, you usually find out, I think it's the last Friday in February,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] These, uh, aerial flights, the post winter flights and surveys are not completed.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It'll be curious to see if that affects people and their application strategies. Yeaah. I mean, for me, I've got one point and, uh,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Well, uh, one other thing that goes hand in hand with my applications, and here we've focused a lot on how we use the Insider, is my ONNX system. If you look at me in my office, I've got two screens. One monitor has my ONNX system on it.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The other has my insider up there. And when I'm doing a lot of this stuff, I'm going to every one of those units that supposedly have access challenges, the little asterisks in the Wyoming regulations.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Because we're handy with our OnX system, just about every hunt we apply for has that little asterisk by it.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Because our draw odds are way higher. And if it wasn't for the ONX system, obviously I wouldn't be doing that. Because I'd have a tag, but I'd kind of be stumbling and lost as to where I could hunt. So, for me it's kind of a combination of tools.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He talks about these state access programs where they pay private landowners to let you either hunt those private lands or to get across them to get to public lands.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That are also helpful in securing a tag that maybe was a little bit overlooked or had maybe it's got higher draw odds just because of what we said earlier that the, uh,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Public private, uh, interface. So if you got both those together, you got a serious amount of power right there at your fingertips and you, you're probably going to end up hunting Wyoming quite regularly. Totally.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So, whether it's GoHunt or whether it's OnX, use promo code ALKTOCK. Right? Yep. And save yourself a bunch of money.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I'm glad you got that straight. It took me a little bit. It's getting close to tax season, and as a CPA, I can't keep anything straight right now.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] They should start and if they are applying in Wyoming, I hope they picked up a little nugget or tidbit to hear about.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Well, since we gotta cut this short, maybe next podcast we'll do two Sitka questions of the week and we'll do two Rocky Mountain Oak Foundation Access projects. That'll be perfect.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And he was just tore up. Well, Wyoming has a program where you can apply to reserve the tag for the following year. So.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That his tag will be reserved for 2019. Now, that's, to me that's pretty cool. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that his health improves where he can go, but I plan on being in Wyoming for at least one El Con next year. And it's not even mine, but. So.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That's uh, yeaah. Very cool. Well Cory, you have a great day. You too. All you listening, thanks so much. And uh, until the next time, Merry Christmas everybody. Merry Christmas. Thanks Randy. Thank you.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] All elk. All the time. Only elk. Only elk. Well, it's us having conversations, so we usually go down some


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And you look at it like, oh, that's a target rich environment. But if you're trying to single one out a solo target, there is much easier to go into than a big group. We record everything.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And the podcast is also brought to you by OnX Maps. And with OnX Maps, you can know where you stand with the most accurate hunting GPS tech on the market with land ownership maps that work offline.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Go to onxmaps.com and use promo code ELKTALK and you're going to save 20% when you sign up for an app membership at onxmaps.com


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] We're also proud to partner with Sitka Gear and if you go to SitkaGear.com you'll see their full line of clothing and their tagline is turning clothing into gear and they are doing that through advanced technology that allows you to stay in the field longer, hunt harder and stay safer.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And I think they're both a complex state. Uh, there's, there are some reasons why you would want to apply there.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The 95% of the population, there's really not...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] A reason to apply there, and so we'll...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And I've talked to others who they've got their little secret spots and they go to and they get into elk and they don't see other people and they have a good hunt. But for the most part, it's, uh, it's tough.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Not even late, mid to late. And that's, that's the downside if you're an archery hunter to Utah is their season opens around August 15th. That's opened as early as August 13th, I think. And it's closed, the year I drew, it closed on September 13th was the last day of the archery season.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It might even have been, it might have been September 12th, but it was right in there. So you know, you're really just getting into the bulls, starting to talk, starting to hang around with the cows. And the next day, rifle season opens.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And so you're hunting rutting bull elk in Utah with a rifle on September 14th, September 15th through September 27th somewhere in there, you know, and it's just,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It's definitely conducive if you are a rifle hunter and you want that rut experience, uh, you can have that in Utah if you're willing to wait.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You might say you're four points behind what you need to draw a tag that you want to draw. In ten years, you might still be four points behind in Utah.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And it used to be, and Utah is still not an expensive state to play the game. I think the license is $65 and you have to buy that license.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You buy the license for 65 and is it $5 I think, uh, for species or something to apply. I should look it up. So it's not overly expensive, but realistically any decent hunt for a non-resident


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You know, the early season archery, you probably aren't even gonna get to hunt the true rut with a bow.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You're still looking at 14 points right now. And in 14 years, it's probably going to be in the 20s. So it's a, it's a very long-term.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Or if you just want to put it in there and have a chance in that draw, if you've got an extra 65 or $70 a year to burn, you could apply for Utah.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeaah, it's got to be, because I started late, I was at least 5 years late, I was more than that, but I drew in 2011 or 12 with 10 points.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And so we're seven years past that, so yeaah, it's probably 22, 23.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I'm not. I made it through that waiting period and decided not to re-engage in Utah.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It, it just, I could probably draw another tag in 15 to 20 years and I might get lucky in between there, but I just, I don't want to count on that luck. Um, Utah's got some good hunting, but realistically I could draw Arizona twice in the time that I can draw Utah and have just as good of a hunt if not better.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And you can just imagine if you've got a thousand people and they have to choose either deer, elk or antelope.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That's gonna be split, probably not equally, but it's gonna reduce the pressure on each of them. Now if you allow them for five dollars to apply or buy a point for each one, all thousand people are going to be in that pool for each species.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And you might be sitting on a lot of elk points, guaranteed to draw, but if you happen to get lucky and draw that deer tag, the elk gets thrown out and you have to wait until next year.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It is, and I look back, I started applying for sheep in Wyoming.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] When they first started. And I think I built up six points for sheep and that was back in...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It's just, and they offer so few tags for a non-resident in those good units.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] What's the price of a tag in Utah for L? Oh gosh. That's a thousand.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] We can find out, but I want to say it's a thousand dollars or 865 something.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, and $393 for a non-resident. So probably more in line with most states. Probably a less expensive option for a non-resident than most states. $393, but again, you're, uh, you're with the army of other hunters and not necessarily in quality units. Yeah. So.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] What we're talking about here of coming up with a strategy for applications, uh, Utah is low. Well, it's not even on my list anymore. If that tells you anything, it would be low to recommend that, Hey, if you're going to take and set aside some money to apply for hunts and hopefully draw an elk tag.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Whether it's short-term, mid-term, or even long-term, Utah is just not a good option there.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And Utah there for a while, they were, I mean their age class, some of those units were nine and a half, ten and a half year old bulls that they were pulling out of there and they, they've added more tags over the last,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Brought that management and the objective age objective back down. So it's, you know, it's still definitely quality and mature elk, but there aren't as many of those true monster elk being shot every year. Still lots of nice elk and still monster elk being shot.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I've got that one written down. Yea, Utah is March 7th.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And if you're interested in just buying bonus points, you have to have a license. Yep. So $65. And I think the deadline for the bonus points is later by a week or something. I would say it's March 12th or 14th, somewhere. And again, don't take these dates as gospel deadlines. Definitely check the,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I drew a tag and I waited 10 years and it's the same story as most states. I started putting in when it took 3 points to draw a tag and by the time I got to 3 points it took 6 points to draw the same tag. When I got to 6 it took 9 and so I ended up jumping to a different unit that I drew with 10 points.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And before the draw, even before the application period even started, I had a couple of residents down there call me and say, hey,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] We're experiencing the worst drought I've seen in 30 years here. You might consider waiting to draw the tag.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And it was in early, you know, the years when the season opened early and closed early and so a lot of things against what, what we would hope to have for Hunt. Right.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And I thought, you know what, even if it's early, even if there's a drought, I can still find elk and have a hunt and it's Utah. There's going to be big bulls. We'll make it work.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And we got stuck in a rut. There were, I know three people that had hunted the same unit consecutively.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] For the previous three years, so I had really good intel.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] All of them were saying the same thing. The elk come right here, they rut right here beyond this ridge. And we went there and, you know, three or four days into it, I'm calling people saying, hey, we're not seeing any elk at all. We aren't seeing any sign. And all of them were reassuring me, don't worry, they're going to show up tomorrow. Overnight, the elk come to this area to rut.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And we stayed in that area for eight days and only had a day and a half left in the season before we actually pulled up and went to a different part of the unit. And we had only called in, I believe, two bowls in eight days. And I passed up a bowl on the first night that was probably a 320 inch bowl.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Ended up relocating and got out of the truck and there were elk just screaming everywhere, so realized.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The drought had shifted where the elk were. Okay. And we just got stuck in that rut and fortunately worked out and I shot a really nice bowl on the last day.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And, uh, it worked out, but it was a tough hunt because of the rut. We had a full moon. It was early. A lot of things stacked against us and with 10 points in that investment, you know, you've got $600 in, in license and application fees up to that point plus another.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] $800 in the tag. So it's, you know, we're $1,500 into this hunt.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] 10 years investment and to go and have a disappointing quality experience because of all of those factors that, uh, didn't leave the best of a experience.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And with us talking about these applications and everything, this is one.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And there may be some, I know there's people listening right now that are saying...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I've had areas ruined, completely ruined areas because one person finds out or one person goes and


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Well it wasn't much of a secret, I mean you showed very prominent landmarks in the video and as we're filming it, I'm asking the question, are you sure you want that lake in the background? You're like, if people


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I think most of the time it is just they haven't invested that time into an area to find it and so it is out of just not understanding how sacred that information really is. I think there's other times where it's


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So we can add Nevada to this discussion because it's similar to Utah. A lot of similar characteristics as far as managed for quality and for age class, very limited opportunities for non-residents, very expensive and kind of falls into that same if you want to. What's the license there?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So it's a true bonus draw. The more points you have, the more chances you get. But then, if you have 10 points, you don't just get 10 chances, they square it. So you get 10 times 10, which is 100 chances in the draw.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And so someone coming in with two points is getting four chances. So if you have two points, somebody else has 10 points, they have five times more points than you.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] If you're the lowest number, you draw your first choice. Exactly. And if you, as they go down, they look at your first choice. If there's no tags available, they look at your second choice. There's no tags available. They look at your third choice and they do that all the way down through the fifth choice. So you could draw.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, it's almost like you're getting to enter five separate draws with a random number.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Statistics, but one of them is units that have a certain percentage of bowls with 50 inch main beams and six points. I mean really detailed statistics and it'll show you which unit has the most bowls with 50 inch main beams and six points based on harvest.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So again, when we're talking, you know, 85% of the bulls are 6-point or better, we aren't talking about 300 elk that are being shot are 6-point or better. We're talking about 6 elk or it's a very low number.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And once that's done, it's an investment. You're $155 a year in the license.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You've got $10 per species application fees, and when you draw the elk tag, it's $1200. $1200, yeaah. So it's, it's not a cheap option to apply or to draw.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So similar to Utah then, you have a long wait, and what that does is it just clears people out and keeps them out of the game for an extended period. Once they draw, they've got their reward, they've got their tag, now they can't play the game for a while to increase the chances for those who haven't drawn.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Or you could just create a pool of tags that cost more money to apply for.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, we've got Montana coming up, New Mexico and Colorado, which I think are all deserving of a pretty good book.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah. So this one, it might tie in really well with what we've talked about. If you do draw a tag in Utah or Nevada, you've probably never hunted there before.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Correct. And so now you've got the tag, you've got to do some serious scouting. And some of these units are pretty big units and, uh, where do you start?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Well, Arizona, I don't know if they still do, but they used to, if you drew unit one, they would say,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Unit 1, Elk are concentrated on the east side of Greenspeak on, you know, and they would literally specify where to find elk during the rut on their website. So now you have 150 people that have drawn the tag.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I've been up this trailhead, I'm just wondering throughout the season, is there much hiking traffic on this trailhead? Is there a lot of hunting pressure on this specific trailhead?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Probably don't want to hear that. No, it's the truth. You're going to get more information, more helpful information out of someone if you do your homework ahead of time and call with specifics. And if you're able to go to the unit and you call a biologist and say


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I was in the unit last weekend and I hiked these trails. I didn't see any sign up here. I dropped down here and saw a sign. Do you know if last year, if there was a lot of snow at this time of year that would have pushed them down lower, would they be back to this historic area? Stuff like that. They're going to eat up. They're going to get excited because they're talking to someone.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Why can't I pay taxes on federal land? Why can't I go and hunt on federal land in your state? Yeaah. Do we want to? Yeaah. That's a pretty cut and dry.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I mean that goes back to what we've talked about with Arizona being sued for discriminating against non-residents and the state owns the game. The state manages it, the residents of that state own the game in that state.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] College tuition, I mean in state residents pay less than out of state and they can charge whatever they want for you to go there and take advantage of their resources and it's...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, I probably, I mean I do points or apply in six or seven states.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You apply for 100 tags and the draw odds are average 3%, you're probably going to draw 3 tags on average.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You know, I was just talking to a guy this past week and it doesn't have necessarily to do with public land access, but he drew a tag, an elk tag, and in that unit there are only two roads that you can access off of.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And so with limited access, he's like, this was a controlled hunt that was hard to draw.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Whether it's easement access, whether it's securing public access, the more we have for that, the more areas we're going to be able to go and get away from other hunting pressure and have that experience that we're looking for and that we're used to.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, for Archery here, most units are either sex. So you can hunt either one. Archery seasons are broke up into A tags and B tags. Depending on which tag you have, sometimes there's different regulations there.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Most of the rifle hunts are going to be antler only.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] For over the counter and you can apply and they're very easy to some of them are 100% draw success for antlerless hunts and then a lot of the muzzleloader tags in November are cow hunts. So we do have some over the counter and some draw.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I mean not as much, and we don't have, and obviously it's area dependent within every state. I think Montana has bigger sections of private landowners in El Capitat than what Idaho deals with, but there are some local units around here that


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Absolutely, they'll come off of the mountain down into the hay fields in the hundreds and the farmers get upset about it.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And something has to be done to help them to compensate them to real.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Get the elk displaced off of their places so they don't do as much damage.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Have to be maintained by the agencies and...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That's an amazing opportunity we have here in Montana. And I'm kind of with you.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I mean these are good problems to have, but sometimes with our jobs we get kind of pulled out of state and I just can't wait to get back home.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah. Wow. Yep. Got the Honda CWMU down there. So, um, yeah, it's been, it's always a tough year, but yeah.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I get to talk to a lot of people like you do from all over the west and it just seems like overall for various reasons. You know, the elk rut's been, been tough. It's like to use the word spotty or trickling in, but.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] If you can find the right bull on the right day, he will, he will come running to his death. So you just have to be kind of persistent that way.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That we're just so lucky for arch, uh, as archery hunters.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Is we get to hunt the first two weeks of October as well. Right. And you know, when I first came to the state, I was pretty,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Pretty desperate come the end of September. And then, uh, I actually went hunting with David Brinker. Okay. In that first, you know, say around October 6 timeframe. And we had amazing rut action. Amazing rut action. And so I'm almost, maybe I shouldn't even say this, but.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But, you know, but if push come to shove, like I'll take that first ten days of October. Right.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And I think, you know, there's very few people in the woods and they're all tagged out or quit or moved on to something else, waiting for rifle. You've got the place to yourself and you know, call it a second asterisk or whatever it is. I've had some really good luck.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That's, I don't know, three, three, four years ago down in Wyoming.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, for 15 days and we, just because of schedules and stuff, we hunted the first two weeks of the season.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Probably the most successful people we'd heard about, which was we were having one encounter a day.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, you know, and it didn't work out for us, but you really...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, you have to change your, you can't just say, well,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I always call elk and this is what I do in Montana and so it's gonna work in Utah or Nevada and that's not the case. You've gotta be so adaptable and just take what is


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeaah, no, same with Utah Navada, like you were saying, you know, I mean, those are some premium tags.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You know, if you're lucky enough to draw, you're going to cash in a lot of points. You waited a lot of years and, you know, the reality is whenever you can go down there, you might be sitting water.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You know, you might be sitting in a tree stand, I mean, and you've gotta, it's not maybe what you wanna do, but you've gotta kinda, you've gotta kinda roll with that.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Kind of mentally aggressively tell myself, uhm, to do is to not be timid.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, because I probably hunted more, so I grew up back East Whitetail hunting.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, you know, self-taught, very, uh, very, uh, unsuccessfully.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And so when you, when you hunt animals like that and you're either sitting in ambush or you're going to spot and stalk, you're very surgical is the word I use. And you know, you don't go in unless everything's perfect and you have to be.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You know, so quiet and, I mean, the whole thing is just, it's, it's...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It's just a very precise sniper right thing that you're doing. Uhm, and so I tried to apply that.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Check out cunning and it just wasn't working. Yeah, you know.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You need to, you can make more noise. You need to be aggressive. Uhm, you can't be afraid of blowing out, you know, a small group or a herd of elk and with, with, you know, the mindset that you're not going to find more. Uhm, you have, I have found that the more, not that you're just


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Bumbling into bedding areas, but the more aggressive,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I can be. Some people use the term running gun. I don't, I don't really run. I'm shooting a bow, so I'm not really gunning, but uhm.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The more, the more, uh, opportunities that I'm getting myself into. And if you can get yourself into a couple of those opportunities during a, you know, a hunt or a season.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] There's a good chance you're going to be able to capitalize on one of those. Um, and so trying, just trying not to be timid and be more aggressive. It's, I mean, I'm aggressive by nature, which is kind of interesting, but when I walk into the woods and maybe because I don't personally consider myself a super experienced El Coner like you or Corey, but, but, um,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Right, you know, you work so hard to get in those situations though that...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You know, and if you're traveling out west and you've only got seven or 10 days, you know,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I understand it. I mean, I'm, I'm, you know, like I said, I have to tell myself every time I step into the Elkwoods, okay, it's game on. It's time to be aggressive. And, and, uh, you know, if you, if you break a stick, I mean, sometimes breaking a stick when you're walking,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Well, you know that, but that, so that leads me to, to my second one, uhm, which is fear, fear of calling.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So I don't call enough, I don't think. Uhm, I, I don't think...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I have confidence enough in my calling that I'm just willing to just...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Go bugle in every basin or cow call. Um, I mean, when I do it, I've been successful, but I'm not.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I don't feel confident enough all the time to just go and, like Corey does, and just go call the...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Every oak, every basin, every draw. Um, I, I do like to listen. I would, I would prefer they, they speak first. I mean, who wouldn't? Um, but, but that would be the second one is just.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So I know that kind of doesn't necessarily think that it blends with being aggressive, but aggressive is, you know, getting in there, dog in the herd, following the elk, you know, being on the mountain. Um, but you also do have to call. Yeah. And I've learned that.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, I mean, Core is probably the better one to talk to about outcalling, but the thing that, so we called,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Three bulls in and killed three bulls that we called in that came running from half a mile away in two different States, but, but three bulls and.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So uhm, you know, I'm listening to not only the calling that we're making, but I'm listening to the elk sounds.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You tell me a bugle that sounds the same. You tell me a cow call that sounds exactly the same. I mean, I've heard some things and I'm like, there's no way that that is an elk making that noise, although it is. And so that kind of gave me the confidence to go, listen, even if I screw up one chirp, like it's not going to potentially blow this scenario up. No.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And if you talk to the right elk and tell them the right thing, the thing I've taken the most from, from Corey over the last couple of years, he said one thing in the linguist.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, you know, and he said this in his seminars and stuff, but you know, what are you trying to tell the Elk? And you have to put emotion in that. And for me anyways, and again, not being a world champion Elk caller, to me, it's more important to put the emotion in and maybe it not sound exactly the way it should on the tape.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, than anything else and, and that's, that's, those, those Elker response.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now some of those areas where the elk are bugling, those bulls are bugling all the time, they start to, I say they start to lose their voice and get hoarse, they make some of the craziest noises and they're some of the biggest bulls on the mountain, you know, and they're just, you're like, there's no way that's an elk. And it is.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So don't be timid. Get over your fear of calling. Yep. So the next one is something we just touched on earlier, which was uhm, failure to adapt.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] To the situation, so, you know, you go out there, you've got this idea in your head of how you want the hunt to go, what you want it to be, how you want this thing to go down.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And to try to keep forcing, so for instance, uhm, we talked early season, where some of these, some of these, uh, southern states, southwestern states, uhm,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You go down there and call in early August.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You're probably going to be very unsuccessful. You might have to sit water, you know, you might have to sit a travel corridor. You, you might have to do things that you don't want to do. You might have to set up a ground line, right? Like these are not things I want to do. Like they're viscerally like,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But you, you're just going to keep beating your head against the wall. And so do you want to be successful or do you want to have a certain experience? And I would say if you want a certain experience and you should probably limit yourself where you go and when you go, but to try to tell myself, okay,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Here's the cards that are dealt. Here's the chessboard that I'm playing on. Here's the, you know, the weather, the terrain, the moon phase, whatever it is, um, you know, the herd, the hunting pressure, and you have to be able to adapt and,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It's a little liberating when you, when you actually kind of, when I free my mind to go, okay, I'm just going to go and hunt and kind of work off instinct.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] We just, we have a certain idea in mind of what we want our hunts to be.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That's fine, but you're not going to be as successful as if you're adaptive to, to kind of the situation.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah. I know you want to kind of leave it all out there and yeah. I mean, that's what mother nature's doing, right? They're constantly adapting. It's so hard for us to, for me and my, my structured life and my structured way of thinking to be able to, to kind of free myself up to do that. But when I do it, I love it.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I don't know if, people that follow Seinfeld, you know, there was this character, George Costanz, and so there was this episode where, I'm a big Seinfeld fan, but so there was this episode where


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] If every instinct and thought you've ever had in your life was wrong, then the opposite must be right.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And so he goes ahead and does this and all of a sudden he starts getting jobs and women and money and all this kind of stuff. And so every time we get into a, uh, you know, a tough situation on a hunt and things aren't going right, I like to call the audible and call out the Costanza method of elk hunting, which is,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Whatever I actually think is the right thing to do, I literally force myself to do the opposite. And I tell you, Randy, it's crazy cause you're like, well,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Like I, I know if I go this way that the wind's going to be blowing down Canyon for, you know, half this stock and this and that. You're just like hell with it. I'm going to pull a Costanza and go for it.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And a lot of times you realize that halfway into it that the wind is actually switching is actually to your advantage and you would have never known unless you went, right? And so sometimes just kind of forcing yourself to, to kind of switch it up a little bit.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, there's nothing written in stone. This is not like if you do A, B, and C, you get D. Right. This is a constantly adaptive kind of environment. So I like to call it the Costanza method of elk hunting.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The books and the experts say that in this situation I should do this.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But that doesn't mean that that is the right thing to do because you can't write a book for this wild crazy thing we call outcome.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] We had a group of, we had a herd of elk with a 330 bull, a couple hundred yards in front of us and we had the wind at our back and we were literally like,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Scrambling to get, get out of there because we kind of, you know, walked up, saw these animals and we're like, why are they not wind in us? And we looked.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] We were with a photographer, he actually saw it, and we look in the trees, the aspens where these elk were, the wind, you could tell, was blowing left to right.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And that's why they weren't smelling us. So we literally went at these elk with the wind at our back. Craziest thing, right? You're like, this is never going to work.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And about a hundred yards from those, from that herd, the wind switch was blown left to right and we got right in on them. Never got a shot. But if you would have just, you know, reacted on instinct.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You'd have, you'd have run the other way. It's like, okay, wait a second. This doesn't seem like it's going to work, but.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But there's enough here that's telling us this is probably...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You know, worth, worth the shot. Yeah. And, uh, you know, wins it, wins a crazy one. I mean, you could figure, you could study when for the rest of your life and not have it all figured out.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] What's your next one? So the next one I've heard some other people say, but I'm guilty of this all the time and that's, you know, leaving elk to find elk.


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[Assistant] You know, there's, there's a bunch that goes to that. So, you know, you know, the elk are there, they're not calling and you know, obviously Corey's got his method. He likes to go and keep finding an elk that wants to talk, but you put so much time and effort into finding these animals and especially if you can get eyes on and know what they are. Um,


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[Assistant] Stay with them. I just have found that


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[Assistant] Sometimes you're looking for the needle in the haystack. So for instance, you know, you said it's what took five days, something like that to find the animals. Like if they weren't, if they weren't calling and acting the way you want, why would you possibly walk away from them? You've got to try to, you got to try to figure out that situation and see,


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[Assistant] At least see and probe and figure out if there's any opportunity there whatsoever.


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[Assistant] But it goes back to that being adaptive. So, you know, and I can't speak for you, but you had the llamas, you invested the time, you've got this idea, this imagery in your head of what you want to do and you're going to kill this thing six miles back and you're going to haul it out on llamas. Yep.


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[Assistant] Your mind just didn't immediately go to, well, let's just walk over, keep the Lamas tied to the trailer. Let's walk over here and try to kill the elk, you know, a quarter mile from here.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But, you know, you gotta kill them where they are. Right.


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[Assistant] You know, so, so that would be, that would be number four.


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[Assistant] And then number five is really more archery specific. Yeah. And, uh, you know, I've, I've made the mistake, uh, I've seen others make the mistake, especially relatively new archery hunters. Um, I did not make the mistake this year. Um, but you have to, you have to,


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[Assistant] You know, basically be able to know when to draw and more importantly take the first


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[Assistant] If you wait for that animal to be completely broadside, looking away from you, you know, this whole thing, like...


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[Assistant] You're gonna potentially leave a lot of opportunity on the table?


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[Assistant] Where, and this is maybe a plug for, for subalpine, the pattern, but you know, I had a bull, he was at 30 yards, you know, he came in, he was at 30 yards and I wasn't able to draw before he cleared. And I said, if he's going to let me draw my bow, I'm going to kill him right there. And I came, slowly came to full draw and shot him.


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[Assistant] But I could probably tell you to two yards plus or minus. And I said, this is the opportunity if he's, cause he was calm. I said, if he's going to let me draw, I'm going to kill him right where he stands.


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[Assistant] You know, to take an unethical shot, but you know, this, this year alone, I saw a 15 yard frontal. I saw a quarter and two, you know, not hard quarter and two, but a quarter and two where you're, you're definitely going to hit them at least in one lung and right through the liver and diaphragm.


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[Assistant] Uh, you know, I drew on a bull that was looking at me to mind you 30 yards. He on the, in the footage, he moved a little bit, but you know, I always aim lower third. Like we were just talking before we started this podcast. These, these opportunities archery hunting are so few and far between.


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[Assistant] You know, you could be waiting a very long time and by no means am I saying take an unethical shot. Elk are very, very tough.


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[Assistant] They're incredibly durable. Um, nobody wants to lose an animal, but that again, going back to number three about I want this thing to be a certain way because this is the way I pictured it in my mind. Like very rarely in reality is that exactly what happens. You know,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So the other thing that, uh, so this bull I killed in Utah,


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[Assistant] I had to shoot, I had a small window to put my arrow in to kill this bull.


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[Assistant] And I've seen a lot of archery hunters make this mistake as well where they wouldn't take a shot and I'm either behind them calling or something like that. I'm like, why didn't you shoot? And they said, well, I, I didn't know if I could put my arrow through this, through this hole in the brush or arc it over a limb or something.


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[Assistant] And it's real easy to figure out, but it takes a little bit of practice. But I knew exactly where my aero flight was going to go based on my pins. And so yeah, that, that familiarity is...


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[Assistant] Again, I don't necessarily rifle hunt anymore, but that familiarity with your equipment, especially the weapon system.


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[Assistant] Uh, it cannot be overstated. I mean, it just, and, and, you know.


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[Assistant] Even if you're perfect, sometimes it doesn't always work out exactly the way you want. But, um, you know, with, with archery hunters and you know, I've.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Talk to some folks, you know, here who are, you know, pretty, pretty successful gun hunters when they're getting into archery.


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[Assistant] And it, you know, I just, I can't stress it enough that you have to be completely familiar. I think shooting the same setup every year, the same arrow weight, the same arrow speed, or generally if you go from bow to bow, if you try to keep things the same, you start to learn the trajectory of that arrow.


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[Assistant] You know, I shoot a relatively heavy arrow. Um, I know what it's going to do. I've seen, you know, and the more animals you kill successfully, like the more confident you get, but I just see people, you know, either not know when to draw and the, and they hesitate, um, or they don't take that.


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[Assistant] Really good shot, but it's not like the perfect shot like textbook in the book when it's this, you know, one dimensional completely broadside animal with the legs slightly forward. It's.


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[Assistant] You know, if you learn the anatomy, study the anatomy of these animals and you really realize that you've got a little bit more of a window than, than you think. Um, but yeah, I've seen a lot of, I've, I've done that a lot certainly earlier in my, in my archery career, so to speak. Um,


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[Assistant] And uh, and I see a lot of people make that mistake all the time.


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[Assistant] Yep. All the time. And I would rather people not shoot than shoot if they're not confident. But I would just say you would increase your odds if you practice with your gear and, and knew when, and, and, you know, Tyler, Jonathan's a friend of ours, right? And Tyler told me this, and this was something that stuck with me, has stuck with me since he, since he told me this, he goes, the success or failure of a hunt and, uh,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] In the time we were hunting elk, and I think specifically with elk.


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[Assistant] But you know, it can come down to fractions of a second success or failure. And he says, you really have to work on instinct.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And not try to, I'm a person that likes to overthink and overanalyze everything, you know, and I'm studying the business and the market and all this kind of stuff and scrutinizing product.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, you know, and I know Corey, and I applaud him for doing this, but when he started the Elk 101 University or University of Elk, yeah, yeah.


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[Assistant] And he had written some articles prior to that, but you know, that he, he talked about that frontal shot and, and he, you know, he, he showed that he had done the due diligence of dissecting the animals and taking pictures. And then obviously he's had success and you know,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And that's kind of a case in point. If you know the anatomy, you know your equipment, you know, you know where to shoot.


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[Assistant] How many opportunities have myself and other people, you know, maybe even you, given up over the years of bulls coming straight on less than 20 yards and you're waiting, you know, is it more ethical to shoot that elk when he's looking at you straight on and he's looking over your shoulder cause he, you know, your buddies behind you calling 80 yards?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And you're going to put it right in the center of his chest or when you try to shoot him on the flies, he spins and wheels out of there because he gets your wind. You know, I would argue that you're better off maybe taking the standing shot, knowing the anatomy and putting it where it needs to be. So yeah, not enough set on that, but yeah, so that's, that's something I've had to learn over the years and kind of,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Keep telling myself prior to the hunt and then I try to run on instinct after that.


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[Assistant] Yeah, so I, I have shot elk in the past with mechanicals and I have never had a bad experience. Uh, with that said,


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[Assistant] There was a part of me that felt like I was maybe getting away with something. Okay.


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[Assistant] Uh, so I, I, I shoot that, I, I like them, uhm.


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[Assistant] I'm not, I'm not a big fan of some of the fixed blades that are, that are just a really tiny cut. I mean, you know, let's admit it, sometimes having a, having a wider cut can kind of save you. I will admit that


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[Assistant] With all that said, that this year I killed one of my bulls with an expandable.


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[Assistant] And it was the, and I'll tell you why, but it was the, uh,


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[Assistant] Build up my arrows, put them, spin them, and I don't, all 12, I can get all 12 to just spin like tops. I think part of it's just the titanium and the process that they make and the way titanium is machined over stainless. Uhm, really big cut.


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[Assistant] Something I started doing a few years ago, and when you live out west, you know, it probably makes a little more sense, but,


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[Assistant] I'm able to tune my bows to the point where I can shoot.


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[Assistant] In this case, I can shoot my Ramcat and my Tri-Pan and they group the same. Really? And the Tri-Pan will group maybe just, just a, you know, a skosh better at say beyond 60. Not that I want to take that shot beyond 60, but that's my point.


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[Assistant] Uhm, either in high wind situations or if you have to do a follow up shot, I will run one or two mechanicals in a six arrow quiver. I will run one or two mechanicals in there. Because I know they group the same. I'll always


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[Assistant] When I pulled the arrow out of my quiver, the thought process was I don't want to leave anything to chance. I don't want to leave any little bit of wind drift.


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[Assistant] And so I pulled the mechanical, it was close range. You know, it's not that I was shooting and it's not, it wasn't like my bow was blowing all over the place, but I just didn't want to take any chance.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But if you have to do a follow up shot, you know, you get an arrow in him, if the bull's going to stand there, I'm always going to try to shoot him again. And if he's at 60, 70 yards and he's already got an arrow in him, like I'll always try to shoot again. And at that point.


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[Assistant] You know, I'll try to follow up with, with a mechanical if possible, just because again, wind drift at that distance. And so I've been doing that for a couple of years now. I learned that from a guy and you know, if you tune your bows, you really have to work on your equipment and really know exactly what you're doing. But, um,


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[Assistant] But anyways, yeaah, the Wacom has been a great head for me over the years and, uh, I've, I've shot some good ones. I shot the Almers, um, for a couple years there before, before they went away. But, uh, but yeaah, I will always try to put a,


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[Assistant] The biggest fixed blade head that'll fly out of my bow, uh, into an elk if possible. 100 or 125? I shoot 100, but I put 50 grains of brass up front. Okay. So, you know, I don't want to, there's been plenty of discussions about FOC, but yeah, I put 50 grains of brass and then I put a hundred grain head. Um, yep. Release.


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[Assistant] So I shoot a thumb trigger, but more specifically I shoot a tension activated release. And more specifically than that, I shoot a.


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[Assistant] Knock on archery, uh, silverback release. So it's a two finger thumb release. Uh, it's tension activated. So it's, you know, set to, to activate X number of pounds, say four to five pounds over my holding weight. I started shooting that about a year and a half ago.


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[Assistant] Uh, that particular release, I've shot thumbs for a very long time now.


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[Assistant] The thing I like about that release is it makes me execute the shot.


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[Assistant] The same way every time, if I'm shooting at foam or if I'm shooting at a live animal. And so that, and it's taken me a year. If you ever, you know, choose to commit to a release like that, I would say give yourself a year.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, but I've, I've lost count, but I'm probably close to 20 animals now that I've killed with that particular release.


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[Assistant] You don't have any room for doubt, honestly. I mean, it's such a difficult thing to kill these animals, you know, cleanly and ethically that...


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[Assistant] Yeah, but it's familiarity and confidence. And yeah, I mean everybody, you know, depending on what your draw length is and what your poundage is and all these kinds of things in state, you know, there's different state laws. Right.


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[Assistant] Yeah, but you know, I think the common thread here is we spend a lot of time scrutinizing, practicing, gaining proficiency and then just being supremely confident. Yeah. Yup.


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[Assistant] So, you know, base layer and I define base layer as the, the layer that's directly next to your skin. You know, it's a foundational part of any clothing system. Certainly any of these technical hunting systems, it's, it's the foundation.


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[Assistant] Uhm, I've been on record as saying that I'm not anti-merino, but that I'm prosynthetic.


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[Assistant] And so what I mean by that is my kind of my default position is to go to synthetics, but there really is, as you and I were talking, there's no right or wrong answer.


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[Assistant] But it is condition dependent, uhm, and there's a lot of conditions, so that condition could be, uh, weather.


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[Assistant] Uh, it could be your body type chemistry. Uhm, you know, do you sweat a lot? Do you not sweat a lot? You know, different things. It seems like, and I'm not, certainly not a scientist in this regard, but it seems like certain people's maybe pH, uhm, you know,


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[Assistant] They stink more than other people, you know? And so everybody's got to adapt. I would say the best thing to know or understand is the difference between synthetics and Merino. So let's go into that. Yeah, so I had somebody tell me a long time ago,


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[Assistant] We are going through this that, that really all they're trying to do with synthetic bass layers is, is try to


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[Assistant] To mimic wool, which is a natural fiber obviously, and then try to, um,


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[Assistant] Deficiencies. Start coming, yeaah. Right. So, let's, let's start with wool. Uhm, and we've, Sitka's got a, a new wool program out this year that I think is exceptional.


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[Assistant] I think it's as good as anything in, in not only the hunting market, but certainly the mountain, the mountaineering outdoor space. As someone who's been using it for the last two months. Yeah. I agree. Yeah. Perfect. Perfect. Um, so there's three, there's three weights, but, um,


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[Assistant] But some arenas got some, some interesting properties and, um,


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[Assistant] And I won't get into all of it, but it's, it's about scaling and lanolin and all these kinds of things. It's in this, this natural great fiber.


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[Assistant] Merino essentially is warm when, I don't like to say wet, but I'll say warm when moist, right? Warm when there's moisture in the garment. Right, perspiration. Right, which is great, in a cold environment.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That even though it's wet, it'll keep you warm for a while.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Um, but in a hot environment, having that moisture next to your skin actually promotes cooling, conductive cooling, convective cooling, et cetera. Um, so it's got a really broad range of conditions that Merino is comfortable. Um, the,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The natural antimicrobial property. So that means that it's natural ability for it not to stink, uh, you know, at the end of your 10 day doll sheep hunt or whatever the case may be. Those are great things, especially when you're hanging out with a guy in a small backpack.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] There's, uh, you know, a couple deficiencies. I'd say one, it's maybe not as durable as some synthetics, especially when you get into some of the thinner weights. And uhm, more importantly to me is that it, it, it does stay wet longer than a synthetic.


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[Assistant] Uhm, but, but it's got its, right, we talked about the upsides of that. Synthetics, on the other hand,


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[Assistant] Uhm, really by nature of what they're made out of, really can't, the fiber actually can't absorb moisture.


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[Assistant] The, the, the garment as it's, as it's woven can, you know, can hold some moisture, but it's really, really, really efficient at taking the moisture on your skin, moving it through that base layer onto whatever the next layer is or the outside atmosphere. Um, so it doesn't stay wet very long and the garment that's not wet,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, and keeps your skin dry, allows your body to thermoregulate, so.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Some of the deficiencies of that though are, one, some of those lightweight base layers are so efficient at moving moisture from the skin to the next layer that when people stop they actually feel like they're cooling down.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, and in some regard they are, because the moisture is moving so fast to the next layer that there is a little convective, uh, or conductive, uh, loss.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But it's only for a very short amount of time and that the proper application of layers when you stop can kind of prevent that from, from feeling that way.


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[Assistant] Uh, so for instance, if I, you know, if you and I hike to the top of a ridge and we sweat up our layers and I'm wearing a synthetic base layer and I get up there and I start feeling like I'm losing heat because it's moving the moisture so fast.


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[Assistant] You know, damp for say 20 minutes, right?


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[Assistant] Correct. So, the other deficiency of synthetic is


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[Assistant] That it doesn't have any natural antimicrobial properties. So if there's no application, aftermarket application to the garment


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[Assistant] It is going to pick up stink like almost immediately and it's not going to let it go. And you know, at the end of a 10 day sheep hunt, not only will, uh, you be disgusted by me, but I'll be disgusted by myself. And so, you know, what, what, uh, what we've done at sick is, uh, applied this.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, environmentally friendly, naturally occurring silver salt, uh, to the garment, which it's called polygene and so that, that, uh,


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[Assistant] That kinda cuts down on the garment's ability to kinda grow this, these, uh,


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[Assistant] Stink molecules, right? Just to keep it kind of super, super, uh, super simple. But what we found is, and to my point about, and I don't know if it's people's body chemistry or pH or whatever it is, um, some people have a, uh, a really good experience with polygene like myself. I, I haven't,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I don't have any problem wearing polygene for three, four days in a row.


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[Assistant] Other people, it just doesn't work, you know, and you may be one of them. And so, um, you know, at the end of the day,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] There's not a right or wrong answer. The only thing I say that somebody should not do and the only wrong thing would be any kind of application of cotton in somebody's clothing system. So, you know, if wool works for you, use it. If synthetic works for you, use it.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I will sometimes default to wearing a lightweight synthetic base layer and then I'll put a slightly heavier wool layer over top because what I want as I want that moisture to be pulled away from my skin so that I don't feel wet and clammy.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The, uh, the wool on the outside can hold the moisture away from my skin. Doesn't really matter. Still that broad temperature range and still all those natural antimicrobials. If I'm white tail hunting, I always wear wool cause I'll do anything I can to try to prevent any kind of stink, right? I'm also not going real far. Um, you know, but I'm leaving tomorrow to go on a,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] 12 day moose hunt in BC and uhm, you know, we're going to be around water, et cetera. I'm going to be running full synthetic. You will. I will.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I want to dry as quickly as possible. I want to be able to potentially, if I get wet, put on some puffy layers at, you know, ultimately if I have to get in my sleeping bag and I can dry out really quick.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, I can do that with wool, it just doesn't happen as quick. So, you know, just my system is I like to run synthetics in more wet environments. You're down in New Mexico running around.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I see and I would tell you that save the layer, leave it at home and just put a puffy jacket on top and, and you know, the term cook the system dry, I like to say that.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You know, these last two hunts in Montana, obviously it's going to be a little different going to BC. I always bring a puffy jacket of some sort. I don't care what time of year it is. Now that, that jacket may change depending on what it is.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I always bring a puffy jacket. So for most of the, the hunting we did this year, I would bring that Kelvin, uh, active jacket. So super lightweight, super breathable, you know, not the warmest jacket, but enough


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I don't always bring a rain jacket necessarily depending on what I'm doing or where I'm going or how far I'm away from the truck or the trailhead. I always bring a wind stopper jacket. So, you know, a lot of times, uhm,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You don't necessarily need insulation, you need protection from the wind. So the wind will strip the heat away from you, you know.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It acts as a really good, uh, even though it's not a rain layer, it acts as a really good rain layer for those kind of


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[Assistant] And, uh, I always bring gloves. So some type of, uh, so we have new merino gloves or Traverse gloves. You know, if you get your hands wet, uh, or they get cold and you can't do the most simple of tasks, like, you know, turn a headlamp on or flick a lighter, you know, you're kind of stuck sometimes or even pull a trigger.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And then I always bring a beanie of some sort, right? That the easiest way to regulate temperature when you're hiking, if I'm cold, I put the beanie on and when I start to heat up, the first thing I do before I remove a layer is I remove the beanie and it's kind of like opening or closing the flu on a chimney, right? You're either trapping heat or letting it go.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, so those, those things are always in, in my kit and then.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Depending on, again, weather conditions, where I'm going, then I will begin to bring rain gear.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, if I'm going on a backcountry hunt, obviously nobody can predict the weather for five to ten days. I will always roll with rain gear in my pack.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And they're highly water resistant, but I would just caution people that if you're going to someplace like, like I'm going or where you went in the, you know, wherever you went in Alaska, whatever that range is, where historically it's wet, like you need dedicated rain gear of some sort.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] If I am not wearing, um, some base layer bottoms, I always carry those always because you just,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] From day to day, from actually, you know, morning to evening sometimes, morning to afternoon, it can change that much in the mountains. And I do like to have a base layer bottom. So if they're not on my body, they're in my pack. And the other thing I would say historically I carry, uh, is an extra pair of socks, either if I'm in really wet terrain or, you know, I'm spending the night out.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, and I can rotate every other day, every other day and get, you know, at least three days out of every pair of socks.


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[Assistant] So not, not, not just research, but actually like live guinea pig testing, you know, that was, that was really where, you know, for 15 years of my life, I mean, that's what they paid me.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, so for, you know, 26 years I was in the military, but 15 of those years, you know, I was an instructor, uhm, you know, basically teaching special operations guys how to go into


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Which is take the clothes on your back, uhm, know how to make them work, leave on your terms and not, not the weathers or the enemy's terms, right? And, and not only survive, but flourish. And so, you know, for 15 years,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It wasn't, you know, I didn't have to buy any gear, right? Certainly not with my own money. I mean, I had access to every thing that you could possibly want from sleeping bags to tents to clothes to, and then had access to the best designers and developers of all these high end companies. I could ask them questions.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] We wouldn't actually just develop the gear, but we would go and try the gear, we would test the gear, we would experiment to see what worked, what didn't work, what we could get away with, what we couldn't get away with.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You know, super familiar guy who's, who's uh, you know, adapted to my environment. And then somebody comes from San Diego up to Alaska to learn how to live in the cold.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It's important for me to, to see how, not these guys aren't common men, but to see how people without that experience, uh, took the information and were able to use that equipment because sometimes


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You know, I was jumping ahead four steps where I realized I had to go back to step one and I was already on step five. And so that feedback loop was huge to be able to kind of complete that so I can go, okay,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Here's where we started. Here's where we're going. Here's why we have to, you know, change things, et cetera. So, you know, enough about that per se, but I was able to, to, to try all this stuff and, you know, come up with my own conclusions, see other people, you know, thousands of people.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] We were able to see these, so this isn't just like,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Or certainly with higher consequences. And you know, and I need to say this, by no means does that mean that I know everything and that certainly does not mean that I have stopped learning.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Cause I am constantly open to new ideas, seeing what other people do. I'm constantly still tweaking my gear, learning stuff, but I've got a pretty good foundation. I'll just say that. Um, so to go back to your sleeping bag, so to go back to your, to your comment or question on sleeping bags, there's on this one, I really don't have, um,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I have an opinion, I don't really have a middle ground here. I'm a prosynthetic sleeping bag person. So, traditional down bags, so straight up, you know, uh, duck or goose feather bags.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] They're great when you're going to super high elevations and climbing, you know, Mount Everest or McKinley or some of these places where it's incredibly dry. It's so cold that you don't have a lot of moisture. Uhm, and you can still get yourself into predicaments, but you know, the, the,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The problem with those bags is if you get moisture in those bags, that the feathers come together and begin to clump.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And people say, well, but if it's so cold, there's not going to be any moisture in my bag. Well, the reality is when you get in your bag at night, especially if you put your head in the bag, if it's really cold, but even if you don't, your body puts off moisture.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And I've heard a bunch of different, uh, you know, amounts, but I won't, I won't give one, but I'll just say you put out a lot of moisture and that moisture goes into the insulation of the bag and slowly works its way through. Well, it doesn't all get through there. And over the course of time,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You know, it's going to begin to, to reduce the co-value. Um, so there's that synthetic bag. Um,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Inherently, it doesn't clump, it doesn't lose its loft, it won't lose that value. Now, I believe it does, and we've done some testing, it does lose a little bit over the course of time, but it doesn't lose as much.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] To me, the sleeping bag is, it's my sanctuary. It's my last line of defense. If shit goes south, sorry, I'm probably not allowed to swear, but if stuff goes south,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And you know, I'm on, I'm on the flow trip in Alaska and I fall overboard or we got to cut that moose up and the snowstorm comes in and I got to bail inside my tent and get inside my sleeping bag. I'm and I've.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You know, I've done some videos with the Eastmans and stuff. I jump in with my clothes on and I jump in that.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Correct, because the alternative is I take those clothes off and I get in the dry sleeping bag and those clothes sit in the corner and freeze solid and the next day I've got nothing to put on. Gotcha. Or I've got a second pair of clothes which means I've carried more weight, more bulk than I really wanted to and I still have to deal with the frozen clothes.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So, you know, worst case scenario, but I get in the bag. Well, even if I don't get in the bag, let's say it gets wet for what a myriad of reasons, or let's say I get in and I'm wet, maybe just from putting the tent up and I just got wet on the outside and I jumped in, that bag is going to keep me dry, keep me warm for the, for the duration of the trip.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I don't mean to demean anybody to include myself, but it's idiot proof. I don't have to think about it. This is just a piece of gear that works for me over and over and over and over again. I've got bags I've had for 20 years. Matter of fact, I'm probably going to bring one to BC and it just works for me. I just know it's going to be my reliable friend every time.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Um, okay, so now let's jump ahead to probably a more, uh, controversial topic and talk about some of these treated downs. Now we use treated downs in some of our clothing.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] With treated down in a sleeping bag being, if you consider your sleeping bag, your sanctuary, your last line of defense, like a bit of a survival gear. Right. Um, if I get that,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, wet, if I get in there wet, if that bag gets wet, um,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The same thing that happens to traditional down will begin to happen to treated downs. Okay.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] They always like to show the treated down floating on the top of a glass and they'd shake it up and it still stays treated. And that's true. They're treated. But through my testing, where I have come to find is the, the Achilles heel of treated downs is in any compression zone. So I get in a sleeping bag.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And I get in there and I'm wet or I'm putting moisture out and now I'm rolling around on my side or I'm laying on my back. You have to, something's got to be contacting the ground that if there's enough moisture that it will begin, it does, it doesn't begin.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So again, is it better than regular down? Yes. Is this as good as synthetic? In my opinion, no.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] There's a compromise. So that's the compromise of treated down is that it can get wet and especially through compression. So any kind of long wet trip that I'm going on, I wouldn't bring that. What's the, what's the downside of synthetic? Not quite as compressible. Right. So it doesn't.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And you know, Primaloft is one of our partners and they've got some amazing things that they're coming out with and really, you know, they're trying to.