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[Assistant] And they have weapons on offense and obviously an offensive line that can bring along this young quarterback. So again, I think that he's part of the calculus as to why they decided to trade up and they're, they're kind of going all in on moving away from Garoppolo and going with Lance.


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[Assistant] Yeah. I mean, he's playing in an era where there is a T.J. Watt, Aaron Donalds. We're talking about Vaughn Miller not having one. It's, it's, it's very similar.


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[Assistant] But he's everything that you would want if you're a franchise picking number one overall and you're going with an edge rusher. This is exactly who you want him to become.


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[Assistant] It's not a Jadavian Clowney where it's like, well, it didn't get to exactly where I wanted it to go. He is legitimately that anchor to your defense.


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[Assistant] The family lines are pretty good there. The boats is in the watts. I don't know what's in the water over there, but they're doing well.


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[Assistant] Yeah, that makes sense. And again, I think he had those 22 and a half sacks. Wasn't that just 14 games?


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[Assistant] Well, we're gonna do the same thing with Aaron Donald.


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[Assistant] Like you knew he was wanting, like you knew those guys were wanting to.


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[Assistant] Number one in that code, then it, it's, it's, something's wrong.


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[Assistant] I think we're talking about someone who's trending in the other direction. He's still, you know, among the elite, but still going, but he's going down. The numbers, if you look at them, you're going to go, okay, they're not really there.


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[Assistant] He just plays for a bad team. It's tough to really make a huge impact. But if you put him on a contender, like if you all of a sudden put him in, you know, if you take out Vita Vea and you put in Grady Jarrett in Tampa Bay, I think you're seeing tremendous results.


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[Assistant] That's, that's really what it, I mean a lot of these guys, you know, especially like, you know, you go to the top of the list, Aaron Donald, he's moved around a little bit more. This guy's.


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[Assistant] Kenny Glock, when he's legitimately just lined up as the nose tackle, he has 14 more pressures than any other player as a nose tackle going back to 2018. Wow, very nice. You know, so it's, when he's lined up in that spot, he's better than anybody else that does the same thing.


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[Assistant] I mean, he's another one who's young, 26 years old, ascending, best year of his career last year. He's the sixth highest graded in, you know, interior defensive line by PFF, 89 tackles, which was tied for the most among those players at his position, 29 pressures, four and a half sacks. I just think that this is a guy that's...


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[Assistant] For a team that's probably going to be more competitive than they've been during his tenure.


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[Assistant] And I think again, he's, he's someone who I'm kind of maybe a little bit more bullish on, but I think for good reason.


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[Assistant] Yep. But I mean, you're adding Yannick Ngakwai, Stefan Gilmour in that secondary. I mean, they're, again, that's all gonna compliment- Personal-wise, they might be better.


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[Assistant] Yeah, better, better against the past or rushing the past than he is against the run. But you go back to, dating back to 2020, 114 pressures, only looking up to Aaron Donald, uh, Chandler, uh, Chris Jones and Kim Hayward at the position. Dating back to what year? 2020.


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[Assistant] And he's not even 25 yet. That's pretty crazy. It's bananas how, and you know, as much as I was talking about Harold Landry before, I mean, he's another guy that is helping


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[Assistant] The Tennessee Titans have some semblance of a pass rush, something that's been eluding them for a while now. So again, that's a huge piece to what they're trying to do with Mike Grable. All around guy, 62 pressures last year that was fifth at the position.


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[Assistant] He's just someone who I think is going to be an ascending player for them going forward.


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[Assistant] You don't want to call, I mean, it's hard to call a uhm. But even going at the draft, I know you're saying like, oh, you know, he fell to the 19th pick.


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[Assistant] But I never understand that argument. Especially when you're a team at the top half of the draft. Are you really looking to contend that immediately that next year? I mean, there are teams that are in that position. But more often than not, you're building to the future. You're building something that's going to contend.


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[Assistant] Three to four years from now. So what does it matter that he tears his ACL and the pre-drive process is going to miss half a year one or maybe all of year one?


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[Assistant] That was like that safety one where like it was Darwin James, we go Fitzpatrick, I mean, it was Jesse Bates all in one. It was, yeah. Sometimes it just all hits.


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[Assistant] And only Aaron Donald has a better pass rush win rate since Jones has been drafted in the NFL. I mean, so you're talking about someone who can pressure the quarterback second to none really outside of again, Aaron Donald who we consider to be a one of one


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[Assistant] Hall of Fame generational type guy since Jones has been in the league.


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[Assistant] He's been doing it just as well or, you know, just nipping at his heels in that regard.


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[Assistant] And, and, and just kind of back it up. I know some people, when you mention like the PFF grades and stuff, they roll their eyes a little bit. But it does back up what you were saying, where he's just kind of gotten better with age. His highest graded PFF seasons of his career have all come these last three seasons.


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[Assistant] He has become a better player over time, whether that's, you know, just


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[Assistant] Something's being unlocked. He's figuring it out. But it's not like he was a bad player, you know, at all. But again, something is clicking with him in this later stages of his career where he's just an absolute insane. I mean, 10 sacks, 89 tackles, 9 pass breakups or passes defended. That's impressive for a guy, especially the pass breakups, for a guy that's in the interior.


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[Assistant] I don't know if that's on the Wikipedia, uh, resume, but still, still better than nothing.


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[Assistant] But I'll say this, you know, Aaron Dahl, take away the quarterbacks.


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[Assistant] I think he's the most slam dunk Hall of Famer that's in the NFL right now. I mean, you can't obviously say that with Tom Brady and Aaron Rodgers still around, but if you take the quarterbacks out...


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[Assistant] Who else are you, like you're saying, having that 30 second conversation with?


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[Assistant] You have to, I don't, I don't like that, cause what was it, it would have been this year with Ben Roethlisberger and, and Brady.


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[Assistant] You throw them all in. I know it's, you know, I know that you might want to just have Brady have his own thing, but if you wanted that to happen...


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[Assistant] But I like what you're saying about, you know, when they're in the room, Brady next, I do think that the Donald's conversation is very similar.


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[Assistant] Probably. I think it is. I think that you will have some people, especially if he does not win another Super Bowl.


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[Assistant] I mean, one mulled retirement at the Super Bowl, one retired and came back, and the other one's Aaron Rodgers who could...


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[Assistant] So I kept hearing you and I thought- I keep telling them, put us on camera more. We gotta make sure we're not lying to the audience that we're out there. But yea, we did that from studio. We did used to go out there for a number of years. I thought so. Uh, but yea, the travel budget I think we've reduced it a little bit. So we can send this desk to Combine in Superbowl Week. This is what makes every- you can't go to


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[Assistant] I am getting pumped. I'm getting pumped for the derby. You know, horse racing in the, you know, the national eye, certainly it's like Kentucky Derby, you got the Preakness, and that's, you know, Triple Crown, that's about it, maybe Breeders Cup, get some more of the diehards, but.


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[Assistant] It's a, it's a fun, fun event. It's just like, it's, there are so many resources that go into it. It's just like all of our on-air people except for Chris Sims that give you that one off somehow are involved in it. So I am looking forward to it, but it did not take away from the time that I got to look at the film of Defensive Tackles. Wow. You got to look at this.


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[Assistant] Alright, so we're getting a little off track, but not really because it's these big guys that are causing you to have that thought. Defensive tackle today, you got your top five, then we'll have some others receiving votes after that. Uhm, let's start off with a question.


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[Assistant] Ante Durier says, yo, Chris and Ahmed, big fan of the pod, been listening for almost three years. How have your defensive tackle evaluations changed over the last few years? It seems like the position requires more versatility. There are more viable body types than ever at the position, or am I completely wrong?


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[Assistant] Is there a guy in this, real quick, is there a guy that's like a nose tackle? Do you see him more as a nose tackle that we're gonna talk about in your top 5?


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[Assistant] Oh yea, that's true. JB Twoot says, first of all, hope Ahmed Farid is doing, uh, the heavy lifting, given his, uh, experience on big butts. That's true. I did look at all these big butts. More importantly, what happened to the traditional nose tackle? Gilbert Brown, Tony Siragusa just don't exist. What changed? I get why there's less value, but no value?


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[Assistant] I still got defensive end, but they're not edge. So here's, here's all the different alignments that you're looking at. The three tech, the nose tackle, the nose shade, five tech, that's the defensive end.


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[Assistant] To your point, uh, Gilbert Brown had just 7 career sacks in 10 seasons. Dexter Lawrence has 21 in 5 seasons. Vita Vea has 23 and a half in 6 seasons. So those nose tackle guys are playing a little bit all over and doing more. Yes. Doing different things.


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[Assistant] All right, so we're already behind schedule, but Pete wants to know that he will talk about Dexter Lawrence for 90 minutes if we're okay with that. Just cancel these rankings.


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[Assistant] Uh, Giants fan himself here. So let's get into, before we get into your rankings this year, we always like to do this, keep you accountable. Yep. Show you where you messed up. Thank you. We like to, we like to do that because you may have forgotten where you messed up. Yep, thank you. Uh, your rankings last year, Jalen Carter, uh, number one, you did not mess up there.


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[Assistant] For the defensive tackles. And I was looking this up. Uhm, 13 rookie defensive tackles got at least 20% of the defensive snaps last year.


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[Assistant] Of those, PFF rated, Kalysha Kansy is their 10th best, Mozzie Smith 11th.


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[Assistant] It's a little game theory in the draft too, because if it does take, you know, three years for a guy to develop, it's just like, all right, you kind of wasted those, those rookie years, right? Cause it's so valuable to have a defensive tackle.


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[Assistant] Cause they're getting paid 20 million dollars, the elite ones, right? But it's like if you do find one of those elite ones and Pete's noting right here, you usually reward them, lock them up and other teams do not have access to that player.


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[Assistant] My man, Byron Murphy. Yeah, he was the Big 12 Defensive lineman of the year. His teammate actually, Tevandre Sweat, was the Big 12 Defensive player of the year. Perhaps we'll get to him here.


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[Assistant] His strength, awareness, his balance against Alabama. He had five pressures. I looked at all those. He split double teams, showed some speed around the edge on one pressure, did that against Oklahoma as well. So he's got some quickness here. So the strength and all that is there. You did mention it, the size and the height.


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[Assistant] Uh, so if we look at his decagon here, it is going to be an interesting looking decagon because the athletic stuff there, he's got massive hands in the 97th percentile. The 40 yard dash was in the 91st percentile. The 10 yard split, 83rd. Height though in the second percentile.


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[Assistant] Weight 28th, wingspan 14th, and arm length a little bit longer but still below average at 22.


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[Assistant] I looked up his negative, cause PFF separates the negatively graded run plays. So I always like to look at those guys like how are they getting, when they get beat, how do they get beat? And his were almost exclusively, and this was rare for the other, his were almost exclusively double teams where he did a pretty good job of holding his ground.


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[Assistant] PFF said perhaps nothing better sums up Murphy's strength than that he played nose tackle despite 360 pounds of Andre Sweat's presence along Texas' defensive line. It's context clues.


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[Assistant] So this is where he's being mocked right now, about in the top 20s. Uh, he was like a third round guy back in December. So now the real professionals have started to take a look at some tape here and give their feedback because he has shot up now and so he is, looks like, just inside of 20 now maybe. You think that maybe, like what, 10 to 20 range?


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[Assistant] Yeah, and he played in their bowl game too, which he didn't need to do. He played in the bowl game against Ohio State. I like that too. Uh, 22 years old, does turn 23 in September. He's from Southfield, Michigan, which is right close to Detroit. So another player who out of respect for the Lions and hosting the draft.


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[Assistant] Uh, Nathan Witt was one of the homies. He goes, Hey, what about Darius Robinson out of Missouri? Are you considering him a defensive tackle or was he not good enough to make that list? And so he, he wanted to know about this too. And so Missouri played them at both spots and you can see last year compared to the first four years at Mizzou.


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[Assistant] An anonymous scouting director in the NFC on NFL.com says he's still learning to play, kind of reminds me of Keon White, he says to him. Patriots second round pick in 2023, traits and what he could become. We do have his decagon too, which is a little misleading because he is being


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[Assistant] Compared to edge guys in this decagon, which shows the hand size, arm length, all the percentiles here.


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[Assistant] He's definitely one of the bigger edge guys. You see the athletic qualities would be on the lesser end of the edge guys, which is exactly speaks to your point of why he is more of a three technique or five technique.


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[Assistant] To your point right now, he is a projected late first round pick, early second round pick. He was mocked in the fourth or fifth round in December.


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[Assistant] These next guys are very good, but not in tier one. We start with tier two. This is Impact players with caveats. Oh, so we'll have to make sure to get to the caveats on these guys. We got two guys.


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[Assistant] Both these guys you would peg in the first round. I definitely would. Interesting. I would.


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[Assistant] Alright, so Tier 2, Impact players with caveats. Your number 3 defensive tackle is...


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[Assistant] The senior bowl was happening, and he stood out at the senior bowl. And I think, guys back there, Kristen and everyone, do we have his senior bowl? Because he has a couple of reps here. Okay, well that was rare. I don't know why we showed that one.


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[Assistant] And this is against the Wisconsin offensive lineman, and he does the same thing.


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[Assistant] Yeah, he messed up the game against Notre Dame for sure. He had six pressures in that game, two of them where he just bull rushed the center.


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[Assistant] He had one, uh, kind of like outside, inside quick move off the tackle. Yep. Bull rush on the guard, uh, lined up at edge one time and just stunted into the middle of the line. Got another edge. He played against Florida state too. And I was like, I want to see a good game, Notre Dame. And then, and then a game where he got zero pressures against Florida state. And I was like, what, what happened here?


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[Assistant] Moldable clay. He has some good pedigree too. Athletic family. His dad played wide receiver at Ohio State. His uncle played running back at Notre Dame. His grandfather played football and track.


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[Assistant] Dwayne Carter. And so you're thinking about this with your number four guy too, right? Yea, definitely. If you need a defensive tackle, you're at the end of the first round, maybe this guy's an option. Your number four defensive tackle for 2024 is... Johnny A.K. Jerzawa.


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[Assistant] So there were, there were a lot of pressures against the, uh, the elite competition in the big 10, which is part of the reason why he was the big 10 defensive player of the year. He was a first team all American this past year. He had seven pressures.


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[Assistant] Against Penn State. And they had a real hard time with him. Using, he used his quickness a lot of the time there. Kind of his patience, his smarts to kind of find a lane. Seven pressures versus Wisconsin. You just saw one of them right there. And I thought I'd try to write them all down, which ones they were. Quicks to power I thought, early on. And then good use of hands and swims to move around single blocks.


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[Assistant] Both those teams, both those teams are known for having good, strong offensive lines, had difficulty with, with Johnny Newton.


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[Assistant] I don't know exactly where he's at, but that's about where I had him. Where consensus is right now. I mentioned about Murphy. It was like, you saw the negatively graded run plays were basically double teams where he just held his ground. For, for Newton, the negatively graded run plays were plays where he did get moved by one single blocker. Not even a double team sometimes. And I did like one of the,


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[Assistant] I was like, all right, Indiana, they gave up 45 points against Indiana, and Indiana's not that good. Uh, and he was kind of a non-factor in that game, and they handled him pretty well, and it wasn't just all double teams, and so that's where you kind of take pause, you're like, how to...


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[Assistant] Little medical concern with him. Had surgery in January for a partial Jones fracture in his foot at the combine. He told you guys that he would be working out as a pro day, but he was not able to do that. And so, um, and who knows? Maybe he was playing with some of that last year too, when he was still the first team All-American. So he's got a sneaky


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[Assistant] That closes tier two of impact players with some caveats and now we go to tier three and one man stands alone in tier three, which is kinda cool, right? Would you rather be in a lower tier alone or in a higher tier and have to share it with someone else? It's a debate that we'll rage on for years to come.


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[Assistant] Physical needs molding, so this is like a ball of clay. You like the physical specimen, you need more, uh, refining. Your number five defensive tackle is...


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[Assistant] He told everyone, all the H's are silent. Just remember three rows, like row, row, row your boat. So row, row, row, row, row, row, row, row, row, row, row, row, row, row, row, row, row, row, row, row.


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[Assistant] Late to football, didn't start playing football until his junior year of high school


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[Assistant] Uh, emigrated from Nigeria to Michigan when he was eight years old. How did he get out of the state of Michigan? Went to Clemson for five years. Became a starter in 2021 after Brian Bresie was injured there. So didn't play as much because he was behind some of those guys like Bresie who was a first rounder last year, right? He was at the end of the first round.


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[Assistant] Uhm, so. Saints. Yeaah, to the Saints, that's right. So, a-roh-roh-roh.


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[Assistant] Uh, according to NFL.com, can get distracted by individual battles sometimes, need to keep his focus trained on pursuing the ball, making positive plays, but he does have that nasty streak in him. And I looked at, for like big plays, uh, one against Notre Dame, it was like fourth down and 10, end of the game, minute to go. Uh, did he step up?


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[Assistant] Overpowered the guard, Pat Coogan, who like held him, but he still was able to overpower him and got the Sam Hartman affected the throw and basically ended that game for Clemson. And so it's just like the big moments. He's got that nasty streak. I kind of like his attitude.


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[Assistant] Morgan's got the graphic ready to go. They've looked great this year, Morgan. Well done separating the tears and the...


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[Assistant] Uh, Ted J. Rowland says last year a defensive tackle was selected in the top 10 of the draft. What is the highest spot? You can see this year a DT being selected. So ultimate highest ceiling. You said kind of 12.


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[Assistant] There was a play against Maryland I was watching where he was like a man possessed. He was just like came in there like bull, like knocked over the center and then went over and three steps later, like knocked over Talia Tonga-Vaioloa, the quarterback. There was a time.


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[Assistant] He also played in the bowl game against, uh, Missouri. I like that. Um, yeah, yeah. He just, I mean, he just seems slippery out there too at times, right? And he can be unblocked. They don't even get a finger on him.


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[Assistant] So this next guy would have been in your top five if his father had not done something to you in the NFL. So let's, do we have that picture here guys? Gabby and Kristen back there, do we have?


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[Assistant] Uhm, the picture of our next person here, uh, he is a Michigan Wolverine player who I think should have been in the top five automatically based on that. So here's Chris Jenkins Sr. Uhm, that, that looks like an uncomfortable position and it was for you there and then thereafter.


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[Assistant] I mean, as many times as you, like, tell that story and talk about it, it still is crazy to hear how just it happened. Thank God you're here. Thank God I'm here. To rate Chris Jenkins' son not in your top five.


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[Assistant] And I watched that game against Alabama and he held his ground, shed blockers really well. And what I noticed again from watching that game is Alabama holds. I was like, they hold. They all hold. I said that before and I think they...


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[Assistant] Did it again. They are cheaters. Uhm, so Chris Jenkins and your others receiving votes category. Now this next guy has gotten a lot of love at the Combine. I think I gave him the Big Butt Award. Uh, Braden Fisk out of Florida State. Uhm, he's like a late riser.


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[Assistant] Doesn't have the prototypical size and arm length that you'd want. In fact, it's a bad, it's a negative. He's like in the third percentile for arms, fifth percentile for, for wingspan, but you wanted to give him some love here in your honorable mention.


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[Assistant] So I, I, I put here like his super part, you're like, you're right, like you just seem to get dominated sometimes on double teams in the run game, single blocks, but like his, his, his super power is almost like the ability to get through tight spaces, get off the ball, get skinny.


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[Assistant] Exactly. And you go, whoa, he got through, right? And he has closing speed. So like in the ACC championship game versus Louisville, he played really, really well. Right. And when he has a bead on the quarterback, like he has a good, he, like all the other defensive tackles, you're like, well, that quarterback is going to pull away. Yeah. No, he'll, he'll chase him down. For sure. Yeah.


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[Assistant] If he can get in the proper position, then he can make some plays. That's like, how often can he get in those?


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[Assistant] Opposite category, you got Tevandre Sweatt from Texas, who you did, who you don't have in your top five, but you do want to give some love to. And let me just say this right away, because I did see some questions on this, uh, when you tweeted out that you were going to talk about defensive tackles. He was arrested for a DWI in Austin on Sunday afternoon.


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[Assistant] Uh, Daniel Hinshaw5 wants to know, like, what round would you draft to Vandrey Sweat after his alleged DWI? And so,


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[Assistant] These are questions that are tough to answer, but your rating of him here is...


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[Assistant] The frustrating thing is that there are some times, like against Oklahoma, like the center, like he was like dominating him and made the center. It was like man amongst boys there. I was like, wow, that's, that's impressive. There's just not a lot of that. There's few and far between. Yeah. Right. Exactly right. Seems kind of slow getting off the ball, stands right


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[Assistant] Because just the nature of, of who he is and kind of more nose tackle, he's only going to affect a game like right in the middle of the field. He's the old school thought, which is right with this one. And so you've got to die. If you're going to only affect the game in that small of a circle, you really have to dominate the game in that small circle. Exactly right.


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[Assistant] Because he's got potential to eventually be a double-digit sack guy. And he looked pretty good at the, uh, the senior bowl and those practices, one-on-one drills too. What did the tape tell you? Day two lock for sure. I would agree with that.


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[Assistant] There is definitely some stuff. There were a couple of times I was like, is he just not fast enough? Is he getting tired? Does he not have a great motor at times? There were some times where I'm just like,


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[Assistant] So that's it. Those are the names to know for defensive tackle in 2024. Chris Sims thinks four, potentially four of those guys could go in the first round. I think so. At most. Yea. If the over under was three and a half, would you say?


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[Assistant] Interesting spot, because behind quarterback, it's like these elite ones are getting paid a lot. Like 25 million. Like that's more than any other defensive spot, yes? I mean what's the top corner making right now? 22?


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[Assistant] I think this is true, and I think we can do one more thing with this, because I think this brings up a good question from Carmageddon4. One more thing brought to you by, uh,


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[Assistant] Colombo streaming exclusively on Peacock. We gotta make sure that's still true. Is Colombo still on Peacock? We've been doing this joke for a while. We're gonna double check that. Go check Peacock. It probably is on there. Uh, Carmageddon4 says, is a top tier defensive tackle more important than a corner? Yes. Especially in his own scheme.


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[Assistant] Welcome to the Chernobyl podcast. This is Peter Sagal. This is a podcast about the mini-series Chernobyl being broadcast on HBO and Sky. Today we are talking about episode two, titled Please Remain Calm. We are here again with the show's creator, producer, and writer, Craig Mazin.


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[Assistant] It's always a pleasure to see you here, far, far away from the events you wrote about. To recap, at the end of last episode, the image we were left with was a bird falling from the sky, presumably because of the radiation pouring out of the Chernobyl nuclear reactor, which had blown up about 12 hours before.


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[Assistant] And quite importantly, that bird falls out of the sky and no one notices. Because as of the end of episode one, no one really knows because of secrecy and denial how bad things actually are.


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[Assistant] So the episode begins with a poem in Russian over a radio. Yeah. And what is that exactly?


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[Assistant] And again, we've talked about this a number of times, but I'm sitting here and I'm like contrasting, like, what's the most popular poetry about America? America the Beautiful, The Purple Mountain's Majesty, Fruited Plains. We don't talk about America. We don't talk about patriotism.


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[Assistant] In anything like that. I mean, the fact that they're like, it's sad, it's bitter.


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[Assistant] It's sometimes tedious, but it's ours and our job is to.


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[Assistant] There's even a reference to bullets. Oh yeaah. To die for it. Correct. Is extraordinary.


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[Assistant] And we begin the episode in Belarus, right? Right. Where we meet a new character, Lana Komuk. Right. Right. Now, we've talked in episode one of this podcast about how carefully you wanted to adhere to reality that these were real people.


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[Assistant] So we begin the episode with Emily Watson's character in a lab. She doesn't know anything about what's happened because no one knows anything about what's happened. The town has been cut off. Right. A window is opened.


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[Assistant] A radiation detector goes off and she very quickly understands not only that there's been an accident, but what kind of accident.


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[Assistant] It was. She uses a spectrometer to figure out that a particular isotope that would come from a nuclear reactor explosion is now in the air. Is that reflective of reality? Did people begin to see across the Soviet Union and Europe that something bad had happened through that method?


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[Assistant] But in the episode we now are in Pripyat again, in the hospital.


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[Assistant] People are now finally coming to the hospital with terrible radiation burns. We see an old doctor trying to use milk.


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[Assistant] We'll get into what happened to those men, uh, in some women, I guess, with the doctors themselves. So the doctors themselves receive radiation burns just from dealing with the patients.


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[Assistant] This is something I find myself thinking a lot about. One of the bizarre, it seems almost unbelievable, natures of radioactivity is


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[Assistant] If you become irradiated by being exposed to something like Chernobyl, then you are just as dangerous or at least dangerous in exactly the same way whatever you were exposed to. It seems to like have an endless sort of contagion coming back to our horror movie thing. If you've touched it, then you're contagious. If I touch you, I can get burned and so on and so forth.


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[Assistant] Yeah, and we'll get to more of that later and what happens to those men, which we will talk about, but let's talk about what is one of the key scenes, if not the key scene, where we start what we might think of as a more traditional story. We meet our hero, Legasov, and his counterpart, Shirbina.


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[Assistant] This is a scene in the Kremlin, Jared Harris playing him, he seems to not know what it is he's been brought in to talk about. He doesn't know anything, just like nobody else knows anything.


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[Assistant] Yeah, it seems pretty dramatically sharp, you know, that he's reading the notes. By the way, there's an amazing bit of acting on Jared Harris' part to sort of show that you just saw the worst news in the world on a piece of paper.


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[Assistant] Let's talk about the scene in the Kremlin. First of all, we finally get to meet somebody we recognize, Gorbachev. Fine, fine replica of his, of his, of his wine mark. Yes. We tend to think in the, in the West of Gorbachev as a relatively heroic figure because we credit him with


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[Assistant] Tremendously heroic, and certainly not a leader here. He comes across as yet another Soviet bureaucrat, the top Soviet bureaucrat.


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[Assistant] Speaking of bureaucrats and apparatchiks, let's talk about Legasov's counterpart, who will be an important part in this series as it plays out. Sherbina, played by Stalin's Starsguard. His official title is Deputy Chairman of the Council of Ministers and Head of the Bureau for Fuel and Energy.


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[Assistant] What does that mean? What I actually mean is, are we dealing with a very powerful man in the Soviet?


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[Assistant] System, are we dealing with a bureaucrat? Are we dealing?


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[Assistant] Yeah, and as we see in this episode, he's somebody who, I don't know if the correct expression is rules, but let's say he administers through intimidation. He's not particularly a nice man.


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[Assistant] Yeah. But getting back to this meeting, we leave the meeting. Legasov has at least convinced them that there's enough reason to go take a look. He gets sent along with Shrabina. Neither of them seem happy to go. They're going.


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[Assistant] And Legasov in the end successfully convinces the pilot not to do that. Right.


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[Assistant] Increase in danger of being right over the pile as opposed to being right next to it, which seemed to me to be.


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[Assistant] When Legasov explains, he uses a metaphor that I don't think I've come across before for radiation, which is the metaphor of bullets. Right. The idea is, one way to think of it is these are physical particles that will tear through flesh, that will tear through anything and cause extraordinary, if microscopic, damage.


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[Assistant] So, there's also the continuing story of Emily Watson's character, Alana Komuk. She's out there, she's made no connection with our other characters. She's continuing to try to both find out what's going on and bring the word of it to the people who need to know. And there's a great scene with that bureaucrat.


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[Assistant] And there was a scene in the original script in which that bureaucrat gets up and walks out and marches in the parade even though he knows. He knows and he tries.


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[Assistant] Yeah, there's a great moment in this episode where we find out that the kids in Germany are being told to stay inside as people look out at the kids playing a few kilometers from the plant.


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[Assistant] So as it turns out, one cast member actually lived through this. Stellan Skarsgård grew up in Sweden, which as we had talked about, was the first country outside the Soviet Union to have an inkling of what was going on.


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[Assistant] Let's talk a little bit about the victims. Everybody understands in this business that it's always best to focus on individual stories to represent a group of people. You chose the story of Ludmilla. Was she real? And why did you choose her to represent the larger group of victims here?


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[Assistant] We have that remarkable scene in, in the hotel. And there's that great line, you know, they're standing there in the middle of a nuclear disaster and somebody says, well, there's a hotel.


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[Assistant] This is before the town is evacuated. So life is going on and it walks Legasov into a bar. And it's funny, I didn't understand exactly what happened with that glass until I went back and looked at it again, where the bartender offers him a glass that's been turned open side up. Right. And he says, I'll take the one that's one of this turned over just a small little


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[Assistant] Right. Here's actor Jared Harris talking about just that.


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[Assistant] So they finally evacuate Pripyat. Yep. One of the things I was struck was how orderly it was. Right.


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[Assistant] And I was like, oh, you're evacuating an entire town of how many people? 50,000? 50,000 people. 50,000 people are being evacuated from this town.


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[Assistant] And I could only think of what that would be like if they tried to do that to a similar town in America. People would be yelling, people would be complaining, people would be demanding that they're allowed to bring that or bring this. Calling their lawyers. Exactly, I'm not leaving, whatever.


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[Assistant] And, and what do we know about those people and where they ended up? Were they all just dispersed to the Soviet Union?


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[Assistant] I mean, there's so many things that happen in this series that I've never seen depicted on film before, because they're so crazy, even though they were real. So many of the things that happen in episode one. In episode two,


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[Assistant] We're coming up on the climactic incident, which seems so much like a movie. I almost don't believe it. Right. And this is of course the sluice gates.


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[Assistant] So let's back up a little bit. Uh, Commuke comes to Chernobyl, to Pripyat. And with this news, she has figured out that what he's doing, she's found out through her rather coded conversation.


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[Assistant] Legasov is doing with the Boron in the sand. She figures it out and as she explains when she finally arrives, you're making a mistake.


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[Assistant] We should stop and maybe for my own edification, when we talk about the thing being on fire, there's really two different kinds of fire. There's one like almost traditional fire, the graphite's burning.


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[Assistant] Smoke, particles, flames, that's one fire that they, that's going on and they need to put out because that's spreading radiation in the form of a cloud and smoke. Right. But then there's the nuclear reaction, which is now uncontrolled.


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[Assistant] Legasov understands that if he puts out the fire with a Boron, the other one's still gonna go on, it's gonna get hotter and hotter and hotter, and then we have the classic meltdown where it sinks into the earth.


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[Assistant] As Legasov says, this has never happened before in the history of the planet. That's happening over here. Yep.


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[Assistant] And the other end of the building, they're just running the nuclear reactors for power like normal? Yep. Why? In the world?


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[Assistant] All right, so let's just say that's crazy and get back to our story. There is a description of the results if this thermal explosion happens, which basically to summarize makes Europe uninhabitable.


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[Assistant] So it's very real, what Legasov warns is real and the solution that they come up with.


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[Assistant] Yeah, it's interesting because I noticed this especially going through the script that those three actors basically have one line of dialogue each, well not quite. They stand up and they say their names.


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[Assistant] Well, that's what, that's what I gotta do, that's what I gotta do. Before that happens, of course, uh, Legasov goes back to the Kremlin, and he has that scene where he's explaining the situation, where we find out about what might happen and what he's going to do to stop it. Is that real?


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[Assistant] Yeah. And then of course, there's the key scene of the episode in which, after we made this decision of what they have to do to prevent this disaster, they go and Legasov kind of lamely. Yeah. Tries to, uh, by the way, again, props to Jared Harris because it's one thing to act nobly. It's another thing to act cravenly. He does both brilliantly.


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[Assistant] Which is essentially what Shabina says. Yep. You know, we're the people who do this. We do what must be done.


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[Assistant] And that's convincing. Did you have to, as you worked on this, put aside, cause again I kept coming back to the difference between this very real story and the fictional stories that we've been fed about disasters, about heroes.


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[Assistant] Did you find yourself in the writing process going through that sort of evolution like this is how it happened in the movies but I can't do that because this is real and putting that aside and moving to what your best estimate is of what really happened.


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[Assistant] Yeah, and one of the things I noted about the production, and we're talking about Johan Rang, the director, I noticed so many times where, for example, there is no stirring music.


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[Assistant] There is no tension music, right? There's no fanfares. The music score is almost like a heartbeat, almost like a background sound that indicates tension and terrible danger. It's almost like you can hear the radiation, but no more. And there is a remarkable focus through the lighting on just the gritty realism of it. I don't think there's a single like,


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[Assistant] So, three men alone in the dark with the fate of the continent in the balance. It's a fine place to end an episode and this podcast.


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[Assistant] I'm Peter Sagal, uh, it's been my pleasure to host this episode of the Chernobyl Podcast, along with the show's creator and writer and producer, Craig Mazin.


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[Assistant] Episode 3 of Chernobyl airs next Monday at 9pm Eastern on HBO. You can always subscribe to this podcast, you can rate it, you can review it, you can call up your friends using your phone.


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[Assistant] And tell them they must listen because what a great thing to listen to. You can also listen of course on SoundCloud, YouTube. You can also listen via the HBO Now and HBO.


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[Assistant] Ima doesn't have style, this guy's got style, Connor Rogers is here. What's up bro, how you doing man?


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[Assistant] And, uh, yeaah, I enjoy my conversations with you, as always, uh, getting into this. And, uh, you're not Connor Barwin, but you're damn good Connor Rogers.


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[Assistant] Connor Barwin is, uh, we talk about this Florian and I all the time, of like, how many good


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[Assistant] Players go by the wayside in NFL history where


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[Assistant] You know, we forget about them if they're not in the hall of fame or not in our face, you know, constantly. And you go, damn, Connor Barwin, like what a damn good player he was for a while. I think I used my comp for him, right? And I know we're going to talk about some comps here in a little bit. Uh, you're the master of comps is Jonah Ellis.


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[Assistant] Uh, from Utah, right? The Edge guy. That's kind of who he reminded me of. Uhm, and uh, yeaah, I like Jonah Ellis as well. I'd be interested actually to see where he ends up going.


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[Assistant] I kinda thought he was actually, didn't mean to do a curveball here. I like it. I just thought like he was one of those guys where it was a pleasant surprise when I watched him.


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[Assistant] You know, has it all, unbelievable play strength, unbelievably twitchy and explosive, right? Variety of moves. Right, really a variety of moves, right? Does he have the top notch ability to fly and bend around the edge? I mean, I'm not sure about that. I think that's what we're, but everything else was there.


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[Assistant] Uh, you know, educated in those departments, but like, I feel like,


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[Assistant] I hear that. He was almost my fifth. He was him and a few other guys that I kind of went back and forth with and I actually copped out and just went with the top four and then threw a bunch of names out as five because there was a few guys I liked there that I kind of wanted to give a love to. But he was definitely one of my favorite ones.


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[Assistant] What's hilarious though, see this is what I love about the draft, and don't forget your thought. I got it. Cause we go, ooh, 6'2", 248, yet the guy everybody thinks is going at number 8 is 6'3", 247, and there's no big deal about it. 100%, it's amazing. And that's what to me, Pete hears me say this all the time, where I go,


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[Assistant] Like we nitpick certain guys for something else and then we give another guy a free pass and you go, it's the same


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[Assistant] He's bottom line good football player. Really good. I think that's the big thing you want. He's a guy that can play on my defense any day of the year. We'll see where he goes. It'll be interesting. We'll see where this whole thing goes. Alright, so where do you want to start? You want to start with these wide receivers right off the bat? Yeah, let's do it.


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[Assistant] I agree it could be what he might be at one day, what he reminds you of right now, right? I'm a little bit more of when I do player comps of like more of I try to keep it in the lines and I don't do it for every guy like you do. But keep it along the lines of like his


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[Assistant] Body and the way he moves reminds me of this guy. Which is probably the best, the closest way to do it. That's what I try to do. And then I try to think, okay, wait, oh, he reminds me of that guy. Wait, are there other guys that are like that that are maybe a better version of that or a lesser version of that? And that's kind of what I try to do. And at times, you know, you come away and you go, damn, this guy reminds me of somebody that I can't


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[Assistant] Remember who it is or I can't, it won't come to my brain. And then you write something else down, maybe, you know, just again and just a thought or what this guy could be or whatever. But, uh, you're right. It's an interesting discussion always. And, uh, that's kind of how I usually approach it is what the guy reminds me of and then what


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[Assistant] I think he can be in the NFL. Exactly. And uh, we'll see where that combo goes here.


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[Assistant] Listen, the Malik neighbors, DJ Moore, Jamar Chase, I've used Odell Beckham Jr. type of explosion when I've talked about him.


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[Assistant] You know, the ability to stick the foot in the ground and explode out of it. It's, it's special nonetheless. And I think you're, you're explaining that right with the, with the DJ Moore stuff too. People still don't realize how awesome DJ Moore is. I think on a national capacity, right? I think that people are slowly learning. I even had a conversation about this the other day with a coach.


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[Assistant] Cause they were, hey, you know, these guys are kind of in a class of their own. That's what they were talking about. We were talking receivers and I went, I think I'd put DJ Moore in that class too. And they went,


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[Assistant] Yeah, you know, I don't ever, I haven't watched the Bears, I haven't really seen them the last, I haven't seen them the last, and I was like, well, I'll be here to tell you, he's of the class of Jamar Chase and those guys, uh, so I'm with you there. The one, the Marvin Harrison Jr. one, that's the interesting one.


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[Assistant] And I think that's where the debate is a little bit with that, right? Because I don't know if I see the same explosion of AJ Green, right? I certainly think he's a really good football player and know he can do everything that way. The guy I kind of used a little bit in one of mine was like Michael Thomas, right? I kind of looked at it in some ways and went, wait, I don't know if I think he's explosive as AJ Green.


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[Assistant] I think he can play big slot and do some of that at a really high level and almost be a Michael Thomas Jr. type of guy, maybe with even a little more outside value than Michael Thomas Jr. had, right? But if he has AJ Groen type of explosion, that would make me think differently of him and then he was definitely gonna kick some ass in the NFL.


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[Assistant] It definitely did. He had incredible quick feet. That's the other thing about AJ Green, for his length he had. Arms were insane. His ability to do this.


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[Assistant] Gosh, I would have thought it was faster than 4-4-8. Certainly 4-4-8. I watched a lot of days or a lot of games with him and Matthew Stafford down there in Georgia in those years. And, uh, yeah, I'm actually shocked to hear 4-4-8. Uh, but, but yeah, I, I, I hear you there. Marvin Harrison Jr. to me is, to me, gonna be one of the


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[Assistant] More of the league has neighbors as the number one receiver. I wouldn't be shocked.


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[Assistant] Harrison, we've discussed here a little bit, he's a safe, good pick. The floor is high, the ceiling is pretty high too, right? I don't think it's as high as neighbors or maybe even a guy like Brian Thomas Jr. in my eye, but either way, like, he is definitely a safe pick. So where does he go, right?


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[Assistant] That's to me, like, when I think about Marvin Harrison Jr., and I think forward to the Cardinals, I go, I could see that. Monty Austin Ford, the GM there, came from New England. They might be into just, hey, we just want to get a safe, make sure this pick works type of thing. Right. Right? Or are they going to go with a neighbors who I think is more physically gifted and all that, but maybe not as safe?


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[Assistant] Are you a believer why we're sitting there on that comment there? Do you think that the Giants are going to be in the quarterback combo here?


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[Assistant] I don't think they should, by the way. Yeah, I mean, the quarterback conversation to me with the Giants, I just, I don't get it. I don't get it. I'm just gonna say that right off the bat. I don't, and I think that, you know, Brian Dayball and, and, you know, uhm, no, I was gonna say Brandon Bean. Joe Shane are,


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[Assistant] They're playing with fire, in my opinion, if they go that route. They really are. I mean, again, the Giants know we're expecting a step forward.


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[Assistant] Right? It shouldn't look like last year. It definitely shouldn't. Okay? Uh, they've had a number of problems with the roster, like we've talked about, and Daniel Jones is way down the list for the problems, in my opinion. So they're gonna do that here, and where you say, yeah, they're not in the hot seat year, I get that.


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[Assistant] Wait, we're gonna draft a quarterback and now we're gonna have Drew Locke and Daniel Jones and we're gonna have the New York media talking about the quarterback in the locker room every day.


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[Assistant] And then, okay, now you're in danger of, uh, you might go 5 and 12 now, cause now you're distraction, who knows what the hell is gonna happen with the football team, and now your ass is gonna be on the hot seat.


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[Assistant] So that's where I just don't understand that thought altogether, right? Uh, and we'll, we'll hit on more of that here in a minute. I, uh, because I, we, we want to talk about Drake May and stuff like that, but I don't want to go down the wrong wormhole here because we're still talking receivers here.


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[Assistant] Yeah, it seems like it's gone. I wonder about Bo Nix, maybe that still might be available for that conversation, even though I'm starting to feel that that, at least I don't think it should be, and I'm starting to feel that it won't be, but we'll see. That seems to be the last name available, the big group, that might be available for that late first round, early second round trade-up.


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[Assistant] Now we get our guy and go from there. Uhm, but alright, let's go. Let's keep hitting on your receiver.


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[Assistant] Yeah, I, you know, but I like your Keenan Allen one. That was one of the first names that came to my mind when I watched Rome, uh, even early in the college football season.


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[Assistant] You know, I went, oh, he's kind of a Keenan Allen, Devontae Adams type-ish pipe of player. It's not going to be, oh wow, watch him fly by this guy. Oh my gosh, this is most explosive thing in the world. There's plenty of that in that department, but it's not the wowing elite part of his game. It's the other stuff. He's a natural in playing the football game. He's a natural at the position.


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[Assistant] And then you couple that with the size and the ability to route run, uh, run routes. He's, he's perfect for an NFL offense.


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[Assistant] Uh, you know, that, that's the big thing, but that's where I am a little lower on like him and Harrison Jr., because you know me, I'm into more of the DJ more Malik neighbors type of thing. Run by people. Right, run by people. Or your next cop of Christian Watson, Brian Thomas Jr. Perfect example. Those are my kind of guys that I...


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[Assistant] I prefer more at the top of the draft rather than, again, the other guys are really good and I just want to make sure I'm clear about this.


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[Assistant] Yeah, it's not about just pure physical prowess with those guys. It is a little bit about, hey, precise route running, playing the game, doing that, and I just value, you know, that other guy a little more.


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[Assistant] They run those three routes really damn good. And then I see what they do with the ball in their hand and their ability to stick the foot in the ground and make sharp cuts that way. Hmm, let me put that together. Oh, when he has to run that route, he'll be able to stick his foot in the ground and do that. So we'll see.


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[Assistant] Right? We'll see. I think these are clearly the four best guys in the draft at Wide Receiver. In fact, I think these are the only four first-rounders, really, in my opinion. Right? I think there is a drop-off. The rest of these guys that we'll talk about here in a second are good, no doubt about it, but I don't think it's first-round talent.


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[Assistant] Brian Thomas Jr. is the guy that I'm going to be interested to see where he goes, where that ends up, right?


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[Assistant] You know, I've gotten some feedback there, right? I think on some teams he's high, he's higher up there, right? I have been told there is some off the field stuff a little with Brian Thomas Jr., right? I don't know how bad it is. I don't know what the extent it is. I don't dig into that stuff too much. I kind of just go with,


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[Assistant] My friends I text with, like, yea, his off the field stuff's not squeaky clean, whatever. It helps you forecast. Right, so, right, it just helps you forecast and think about now with the draft coming, like, where this might happen, how it might play out. I clearly value him as my number two receiver as far as pure physical talent on the football field. I really love him.


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[Assistant] Yeah, I think there is a big drop off. And with him, you get the feel. My point was is that


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[Assistant] Those other three guys, your top three guys, I would expect they're going to be off the board by 14 at the very least, or, you know, probably before that, really. The top three won't make it out of 10. Probably not. So there you get to that and then you go, okay, wait, wait, wait, now we're with one guy left.


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[Assistant] That is clearly gonna have a first round grade on everybody's board.


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[Assistant] Right? Where does he go? Who's gonna be aggressive? Is somebody gonna go, damn, there's only one difference-making receiver left. We gotta make a move. Like, you know, people think the Buffalo Bills might, right? Or somebody like that. Where does that go? I think to me, he is one of the interesting people to kind of feel or see or talk about where he ends up.


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[Assistant] To me, I look at him as more of a top of the second round type of guy. That's right where I have him. Right, that's how I would have, but yea, would I be shocked to see him go at 28 or something like that? Certainly. But I think you and I talked at the time, I don't know if we talked on air,


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[Assistant] But yea, his film is, is, is makes you want more. Too much cruise control. It's too much cruise control, definitely not enough intensity, you know, urgency running routes, wait for the talent we're talking about, a guy that, there's just not enough after the catch that bothers me, goes down too easy, right? There's just some of that.


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[Assistant] Well, it does seem like the NFL likes them. You hear that name, there's just too much smoke. There's gotta be fire there.


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[Assistant] Yeah, I like Franklin. He definitely has some things, you know, that I think I'm like, I'm not sure how it'll translate totally in the NFL, right? I guess, or how good he'll possibly be.


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[Assistant] Right? Liked his game, you know, but, you know, even like what you talked about, the great, the quick feet of the line scrimmage and all that, you know, the route running is a little underwhelming with him at times where I'm always like, damn, that's a lot of steps there. Damn, there's a lot of pitter patter to come out of that break, right? That was definitely some of the things I looked at a little bit. He's a hard guy to,


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[Assistant] He was a hard guy for me to get a feel for how much I really liked him, right? He was in the running for my top 5 receiver conversation. I picked Roman Wilson as 5 for me. Uhm, but, but, certainly like this guy. This whole group is good as we've talked about.


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[Assistant] Which gave me a little comfort. Yes, I hear you there. That was what I worried about, right? I mean, I still worry about that. Just the top end explosion there, right? I can see where you go with Chris Godwin. You're talking about that physicality part of it there, right? Yes. Pound for pound strength. I think Godwin was a little more physically gifted. Definitely. Right? But I hear you there.


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[Assistant] Almost like we talked about with Odunze, he can play. He just knows how to play. He's got a great ability to, you know, adjust to the football. I'm with you there. You're probably a little higher on him than I am. Uh, I do like him a lot, but I don't like him as much as like Rick, like Ricky Pearsall, who you're about to talk to in a second here.


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[Assistant] Yeaah, he's close for sure. I mean, his size, the route running, right? The explosion is real. I mean, it's not again of the top guys, but it's good enough.


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[Assistant] You see it against big time competition, right? I, I, I got a feel of like Adam Thielen. He was the name I kept using. He reminded me of the way he ran. Uh, but yeah, I'm, I'm a fan of Pearsall, a fan of Pearsall in a big way. And the fact where I feel like honestly, Connor, in my world, I like him better than Polk and Troy, uh, Troy Franklin.


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[Assistant] I really do. I think he's safer. So, so yea, we'll see where that goes. We'll see where that goes. Guys like Ricky Pearsall are made for the NFL.


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[Assistant] Because it's just like, there's, he's got enough size and explosion to win on the outside, but like a, hey, like the Edelmans or the Cooper Cups of the world, he's got enough, he's got enough route running and smarts and then that couple that with the physical explosion.


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[Assistant] Man, I think he's made to be that 90 catch a year type of guy in the NFL.


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[Assistant] I do like him, don't get me wrong. He's another guy, he's made for the NFL in a lot of ways, but he's like a smaller, lesser version of Ricky Pearsall in my opinion.


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[Assistant] Work the middle of the field, be that guy, and then, you know, every now and then he doesn't have enough speed where he can take the shot down the field. Uhm, now your number 10 guy, that's another guy I was, I was up there on.


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[Assistant] Uh, Keon Coleman. The highs are the sugar high of all sugar high. I'm interested to see where he goes. I get a feel that, I get a feel from the draft community or the NFL community that he is


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[Assistant] He is viewed as someone that goes somewhere between like 32 and 50. Somewhere in that range. That's what I would say too. You know, I wasn't sure if he would be viewed that way and I feel like I'm even being probably a little, uhm,


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[Assistant] Uh, wide range with 50 because I feel like I've gotten a lot of feedback of like top of the second round more than not when I, when I hear that name or we talk about that name.


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[Assistant] Another guy where it might not be wowing, the highlights not be like, oh my gosh, they're the most amazing things you've ever seen, but it's still really damn good. And I think it's a style and a physical size that fits the NFL to where I look like it's just, I feel like it's day one. He'll be ready to go.


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[Assistant] He can stick his foot in the ground and make people miss as good as anybody in the draft, let alone that with the route running. That's where, again, he's another guy I look at almost like what we talked about with Marvin Harrison Jr., a little where I go, this guy to me is a big slot.


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[Assistant] He is Anquan Bolden Jr-ish, in the way he moves, in my opinion. You know, it's oddly enough, they both come from Florida State. But yea, it's not the blazing straight ahead speed, it's the strength, it's the physicality, and it's the ability to run.


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[Assistant] Really intricate sharp routes at a high level. I really like Keon Coleman. Was on Michigan State's basketball team. That's insane. I mean, is that not insane? Right, insane.


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[Assistant] That's right. I, I, I, where I'll push back with you is I don't think he'll go in the first round. I think when push comes to shove, he ends up going to the second round. Because of what? Because of the things you're talking about. Right. Everyone's gonna go, I like everything about it, but I'm not sure I want to go first round in with this guy.


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[Assistant] So we'll see. But yea, he's definitely one of those guys. And you, like me, are a little lower on the Texas guys than most, most out there. Yea, I have Worthy at 11. Right? Cause yea, Worthy to me is, I wouldn't touch Worthy in the first round. It's the play strength. But again, yea, you know, he's tough. I will give him that. Right. Right? I, you know, he is fast as hell. Right? I don't think he is off the line of scrimmage.


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[Assistant] If you just watched that and didn't know his 40 time, I don't think you would watch the game and go, oh, yeah, this guy looks like he's a one, four, nine, 10 and runs four, two, two.


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[Assistant] He doesn't play that fast, in my opinion. Now he opens up and you see him go and you go, well, he's really fast. Don't get me wrong, right?


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[Assistant] But I didn't feel like I was turning this on and just going, oh my gosh.


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[Assistant] Right? I felt like I was doing more of that with Jamar Chase a few years ago. Going, holy crap. He just exploded by this guy at the line of scrimmage. He's gone. It's see you later. Right? And there's not as much of that in the Xavier worthy game as I guess I was expecting. Let alone, like a Donnie Mitchell, there's too many plays where I go,


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[Assistant] I see him again, Chiefs at 32 and the end of the first round. I'm gonna say he's another one that ends up not going in the first round and ends up somewhere early in the second.


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[Assistant] I just feel like that between some of the things we're talking about and we see, and then I think...


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[Assistant] The way some of these linemen are valued in this draft, and that there's a big drop off once you get out of the main core grooves there, that people are gonna go, ah, we can still get a good receiver in the second. There's only one more D-tackle left on the board. There's only one more good pass rusher. There's only one more good guard, and it falls off a cliff.


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[Assistant] And I feel like that's what's gonna end up happening to push these guys out of the first round maybe.


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[Assistant] Okay, that's good, that's good. Way to go Justin, right? Uh, I'm definitely gonna take the first group. I am, uh, right now. First off, that's a pretty special group, okay? I mean, Jamar Chase was the number one receiver the year before he came out in the draft, right? I mean, this Jamar Chase came into the NFL and was almost


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[Assistant] Within halfway of his rookie year we were going, is he one of the best receivers in football, right? Devontae Smith won the freaking Heisman.


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[Assistant] Like, Devontae Smith is freaky, right? And then Jalen Waddle, of course, has got his own freakiness about him too. So yea, I, you know, again, I love neighbors.


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[Assistant] And I like Odunze and Marvin Harrison Jr., but I certainly have more questions about Odunze and Marvin Harrison Jr. than I did about Chase, Jalen Waddle, or Devontae Smith coming out. And again, that's me. That's kinda how I look at it. But what say you there, Johnny Gunshaw?


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[Assistant] Yeah, I think I was Chase 1, I had Smith 2, and I believe Waddle 3 if I can remember. I definitely had Smith and Chase as my top two guys, Chase being the top one.


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[Assistant] Right? Three years. Seventy-five million dollars. Right? So that shows you what the Eagles, the Eagles now, are paying Devontae Smith more


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[Assistant] Than the guy who is, to me, one of the five best receivers in football in A.J. Brown, and is in a special class of guys. That's crazy. Davante Smith.


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[Assistant] I kind of, I've had these, Devontae Smith I think is a little better than people realize even right now. I do.


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[Assistant] I think he's an extremely good route runner, but Devontae Smith again is one of those guys we talk about, hey, he can run by people down the field and you could throw the ball and he can either beat them with his speed or he can jump up and catch it. He is phenomenal that way, but getting big time number one money here.


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[Assistant] Really, with actual value of this contract, Devontae Smith is going to be the highest paid receiver in football. Wow. Because we had a long conversation about this today with Florey O'Connor.


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[Assistant] Tyree kills $30 million a year average. It's not, it's like 24 and change, really. It's the structure of it. The 45 million dollar last year of the contract that makes it that. Devonte Smith.


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[Assistant] Is like 23 and change, right? So none of them are what they appear that they actually are.


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[Assistant] This right here is flat out three years, seventy-five million dollars, right? So this is... After the fifth year option, which is almost sixteen mil. That's what I mean. We're getting, we're getting, uh, yeaah, so... Basically a hundred million dollar receiver. Basically that. And you're right, he's got the fifth year option, so they're clowning that into this, right? So it's basically gonna be a...


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[Assistant] Four year, now 91, 92 million dollar type of deal, right? That's kinda how they're valuing it, I guess, is exactly how it's going. Cause I don't think they're tearing up the fifth year option.


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[Assistant] It's, it's, it's, I mean, Jefferson and Chase are going to wait to the last second because both of those guys know they have their team, right? They know they're gonna get paid. It's just about how much and which one of those two is going to be the top paid guy. And there is a legitimate competition between those two. So that is a real thing. One's gonna want, wanna get


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[Assistant] I signed a thirty million dollar a year contract and the next guy is gonna go, I'll take thirty million and one dollar just to say I'm the highest paid. I mean they're literally like that.


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[Assistant] Yeah, everybody's waiting for that. Now these other guys, I'm gonna be interested to see where this goes. C.D. Lam is fascinating. C.D. Lam, Ayuk, and T. Higgins to me are all in the same book, right? I said this a little last week to, to Florio, right?


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[Assistant] Because, I don't know exactly what they're asking for, but I gotta think like Brandon Iuk's going, wait, Debo's making 22 million a year, I had a better year, I want more than 22 million, right? I gotta think that. T Higgins, I would think is somewhere along those lands. C.D. Lamb's looking at his year going, wait, I wanna be paid like the top guy in the market, right? All of that.


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[Assistant] My, I'm not as high on those guys as maybe the rest of the world is. I like CD Land. Don't get me wrong. But again, I don't think he's in the class of Jamar Chase, Tyree Kill, Justin Jefferson, or AJ Brown. I feel like those guys, you don't need to organize any place for them. You just go, if he's man to man outside, throw him the ball.


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[Assistant] CDLAM, you can do that some of the time, but I think he needs a little system help, a little bit. He's not just gonna catch a slant and run 70, like the other guys we just mentioned are. Or just run by somebody for a 70 yard bomb.


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[Assistant] Right? Still really good, I'm certainly not trying to take it away from them. But that to me is gonna be the interesting thing here, where I keep bringing this up, and Pete, Matt, Casey have heard me talk about this behind the scenes, and I talked about this with Florio today. Like, if I'm on these teams, I'm calling these guys buffs. I'm calling their buffs.


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[Assistant] Like, hey, you're really good. We like you. We'd like to pay you this. It's not the top of, it's not the number one receiver money. Like, I mean, top of the market, but it's really close to the top guys, or right up there with the top guys, right?


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[Assistant] I would, you gotta draw a line to me. And to me, the thing I've been saying all week, right? If I'm the 49ers or the Cowboys, I would call their buffs and go, Agent, call around teams. Tell me who's gonna give us a trade package then. And he's so much what you're talking about, right? Cause the last guy that was in this scenario, AJ Brown,


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[Assistant] He was in this scenario, they went, here's a 17th pick, and we know we have to pay him, cause he's AJ Brown, we'll do that. That's how good he is, right?


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[Assistant] So these guys want that type of money, well show me that type of deal. Show me that the league values them like AJ Brown or some of these other guys are valued. See and I think they're putting their value a little higher than where the league actually values them and that's where I think you're gonna see them drag their feet on this a little bit, these teams, until they get a figure.


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[Assistant] Right, but you gotta be that guy. You gotta be like, okay, we're sold. We're willing to pay him. We know it. He's it. Bam. Do it. Right? And I don't think there's that type of market for IUT Higgins, uh, or CD Lens.


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[Assistant] Right? And that's to me where it'll be interesting. And, you know, Florio brought this up today, which I thought was a great point. T Higgins got franchised. He's in year five. He's in year five. The other guys have to do the fifth year option because they were in the first round pick. It actually screws you over to be drafted in the first round.


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[Assistant] Because of the fifth year option thing, where, you know, that doesn't sound right when you say that out loud. That doesn't sound right.


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[Assistant] Right, hey, you're better, the league valued, viewed you as better, uhm, and now we're gonna make you wait longer to actually get, you know, money, big money and be more of a free enterprise, right? That doesn't make sense, they need to fix that, that's seriously messed up.


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[Assistant] The, I feel the league, I've had enough conversations with people, I feel like the league is changing a little bit. I do.


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[Assistant] I think it's finally, like I've said a little bit, like teams are stopping negotiating against themselves, right? Where they're like, oh, cause we drafted him and you know, we liked him and he's our guy. Like we're going to pay him.


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[Assistant] You know, top tier money even though he's not a top tier player. I think that's gone on a little too much.


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[Assistant] Right? Where it's like, hey, here's 20 million dollars. No, no, here's 21. I didn't even ask for 21. No, we want to give it to you. Like, there's some of that going on in the league right now where you're like, who, who was going to pay them that? Why are you doing that? Right? Why are you doing that? Like, you know, I argue this with like Blake Bortles and the Jaguars when they gave him an extension. I was like,


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[Assistant] Why did you give him that much money? Who else was going to? Show me. It'd be the same thing I would say with like, Tua and his contract and some of these. Don't overpay him. Who was going to go out and steal Daniel Jones with the Giants? Who were we worried about that someone was going to pay him 45 million a year? Nobody? Right, nobody.


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[Assistant] Why did we do that? We couldn't have, if we would've, the Giants, if we would've offered Daniel Jones $34 million a year, was he gonna say no? I bet you not.


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[Assistant] Again, so that's what I'm saying with this and I agree with Elliot Wilkinson a little bit.


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[Assistant] The league's gotta stop doing this. Even at the quarterback position. Are you Patrick Mahomes? No, you're not. Then you make less than that. That's just the way it is. Sorry. The money will go to other guys in the roster. But, I think I kinda tend to believe with the 49ers, Connor.


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[Assistant] Debo's being paid like a top receiver. Kittle's being paid like a top tight end. McCaffrey? McCaffrey's paying the top running back. George Kittle's being paid like the top tight end. Right? They're paying, Javon Hargrave, the top, like top


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[Assistant] So you look at that, I go, they're, they're worried. I'm worried about them being in Ramsville of having this extremely top heavy football team with no depth and all of that.


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[Assistant] And yeaah, I mean, I don't know. If I'm Shanahan of the 49ers, somebody offers me for a first round pick for Ayuk, I'm, I'm probably gonna take it. I am. Because again, that's just, man, that's a lot of big money players. Uh. Travarious Ward. Travarious Ward is up there.


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[Assistant] There you go. Right. So, that's where, that's where.


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[Assistant] This is going to be interesting with the Ayuk thing, because I can certainly see his side of going, wait, I want to be paid like this. Devo's making this. I'm better than Devo right now.


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[Assistant] I showed you guys that, and what I said to Florio today because we had a little of this conversation is, Deebo has got to scare the Niners a little bit. Deebo got exposed a little towards the end of the year with teams that know how to play man to man, Deebo can't separate like IU can.


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[Assistant] Right, but what you're saying to me makes a lot of sense. I think Ayuk is a better all-around wide receiver than Debo Samuel. I love Debo, don't get me wrong. Love his attitude, his physicality and all that. But like we saw, right, I mean in the Super Bowl.


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[Assistant] He can't separate from guys like Legerius Need and Trent McDuffie. They were all over him like white on rice, right?


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[Assistant] And that, that would bother me, especially as he gets older and more beat up and not quite as fast and strong and explosive. So yeah, uh, these three wide receivers are going to be, be very interesting, but I think that's what the Bengals are doing too. They're just trying to kick the can down the road. One more. Hey, the Superbowl windows open. Let's keep this damn good receiver here with us so we can, you know, still be one of the top teams in football.


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[Assistant] I think Quinian Mitchell is arguably the best defensive player in the draft. That's where I would put, I mean, he's up there with the best guys in the draft.


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[Assistant] I'm not so sure he's not my best guy in the draft. I mean, I have a man crush on Quinian Mitchell. He's awesome. I do. I see special with Quinian Mitchell.


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[Assistant] I really do. Like, I see a guy that's in rarefied air in my, like, where I go, ooh, this guy has a chance to be like a real island superstar type corner in the NFL, right? The rare ones that come about every now and then.


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[Assistant] That size with that explosiveness, right, the acceleration, the way he plays the ball, uhm, yeaah, I'm, I'm, I'm a huge fan of Mitchell.


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[Assistant] See, like, when I look at Quinion, he's a rarefied guy where I go...


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[Assistant] You know? Hey, I know that's Jamar Chase out there, but I feel okay with Quinian. I think he's the type of athlete that we're willing to, hey, 20 times, 25 times a game, we'll put you man to man, we'll see where it goes, right?


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[Assistant] I think he's that type of guy. I'm interested to hear, you think, you think there's a chance he is the top guy off the board? Yea, I know the odds.


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[Assistant] It seems like that's the only defensive pick on the board right now is Atlanta, right?


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[Assistant] And I think he, for me, is one of the 10 best players in the draft. Like I said, I think I'm not so sure. I don't think he's the best defensive player in the draft. I do just sit there and wonder where he goes. Your Chargers thoughts interesting?


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[Assistant] You know, especially, hey, that, that defense, what they're gonna do there, bringing over the Michigan DC, right, pying there. They're a little bit of a believer in getting on an island, pying some man to man, doing some creative stuff that way.


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[Assistant] The other team I think I would have pinned with it or thought about for a little while, like the Vikings, Brian Flores, I know he likes to play man to man and do that, that's his history in Miami and even New England before that.


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[Assistant] Are they going to be even in the market for that, or is it just all quarterback, quarterback, quarterback, quarterback? So, uh, that's where I keep coming back to Quinia Mitchell, is just where does he land in the top 15? Right? And how does that happen? That's what I'm going to be interested to see.


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[Assistant] I wouldn't think he's there either, and I wonder if that's the Colts. The Colts, you know, they play Seattle 3. Do they value man-to-man shutdown cover corners? I don't know if they do.


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[Assistant] That, that's where I'm, I'm intrigued. So you're right. I keep going, there's no way he'll get out of the top 15, but I keep sitting here going, okay, but who's going to take them? Who is it? And cause it, it does. I think a lot of our common logic with a lot of these top picks, I go back to an offensive guy more times than not. All right.


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[Assistant] J.J. McCarthy's stock is as high as I ever could have imagined it would be. I never thought we'd be talking about J.J. McCarthy in the top five or top six of the draft. In fact, when I was doing my rankings, I was like,


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[Assistant] He's a top 20 pick. I thought I was being pretty bold by saying that. I was like, damn, I mean, hey, he's a first runner. He's in top 20. I was like, I was expecting people to be like, are you?


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[Assistant] But he, he is, he, he is really good. And as I tried to state on my, you know, quarterback ranking show, three, four and five were nitpicky. I liked them all. It's a rare year where I went, wait, all these guys can play quarterback in the NFL. But the Drake May conversation is the conversation right now.


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[Assistant] It is. What happens there? Where is he gonna go? Right?


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[Assistant] You know, we always talk about it, it only takes one or two teams to love you, and you can be a top ten pick.


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[Assistant] I know there's teams in football that are like, whoa, I would never take him in the top 10, right? I've had those people reach out to me, right? But again, like we talked about earlier, there's obviously some teams that like him. Where there's smoke, there's fire. I've learned that enough.


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[Assistant] Now, you know, those teams haven't reached out to me because they probably realize I'm pretty low on them and I don't hear anything from them. Right.


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[Assistant] No, I would feel more comfortable starting McCarthy.


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[Assistant] Just cause he's played an NFL style of football already, right? I mean, he was playing the most unfriendly quarterback school ever, right? I mean, it was literally like, hey, we're not going to throw for a half hour and then we want you to make some big throws against Alabama late in the game. It's always third and seventh. It's hard. It's hard the way he played. It is.


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[Assistant] Listen, I hear what you say about May. I hear you there.


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[Assistant] You know, I, to me there's just a few too many things that I don't like to trust it, right? As a, I understand the projection. I guess I just don't understand early on in the first round, anything like that. You know, I, I, I see.


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[Assistant] The great throws and the things you're talking about. He is a good athlete, right? I've talked about, hey, he's got the slowest release that I think of any of these quarterbacks. It's an elongated motion that can be segmented.


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[Assistant] I've, you know, to the negatives you pointed at, right, I've never seen a really good quarterback miss some of those throws. That is where it scares me. Or even at the, at his pro day workout, some of those throws, I just went, whoa, I've never seen a really good quarterback do that right there. Right? And maybe I'm wrong.


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[Assistant] And maybe he's part of his transition of fixing his mechanics or whatever else. We'll see where it goes. But he's scary to me. That's all I'm saying. And I know everybody keeps throwing out Herbert and Josh Allen and all that. And all I would just say is they did not lose control of the ball like Drake May did. Right? That would be my big thing. Not that they were perfect.


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[Assistant] I always say Josh Allen made some throws where you went, why are you throwing that?


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[Assistant] There's four people, why do you think you can fit it underneath that guy's armpit and between that guy's legs and still get it in there, right? And that's head scratching. But I never went, oh, he lost control of the football, like Drake May. And that's where...


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[Assistant] It's gonna be, uh, gonna be interesting. And I think, hey, listen, obviously there's teams that see what you see and want, and then going, wait, I, I think I can tweak this and then we can have something here. Right. Uh, but I'm with you in the fact that it's.


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[Assistant] It's gotta be, it should definitely be sit a year or sit two years. And when I hear that too, I just go, that's not the third pick of the draft, but you know, still people might take them there for, for strictly the potential in the future.


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[Assistant] The back flip throwing. You can't do that. The moving of the pocket sometimes when he shouldn't, right? You know, his movement in the pocket I thought is the worst out of the group there.


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[Assistant] Like, I understand some of that, and I always try to think of like, oh man, hey, he's been hit a lot in this game, or had bad pressure all game, so it's hard. I have a soft spot and understand that too. It's still, just as I feel with like a,


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[Assistant] Like I hear sometimes with Marvin Harrison Jr. Well, he didn't have CJ Stroud yet, didn't look the same. It doesn't matter. I still saw guys covering man to man and didn't like the way he separated all the time. And like with Drake mad say, I still saw pockets, plenty of pockets that were clean and the guy was open and the ball didn't hit the target. Right. And that bothers me.


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[Assistant] You know, I take in the other stuff and go, Hey, I know there's probably a few throws he missed here and there just because he got hit a lot. He couldn't even stand in the pocket, do that. I get that, but I don't think it changes my, still my base thought about what I saw and what I evaluated from him.


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[Assistant] That goes back to our Lions going for it on fourth down. Me and Ahmed had it out.


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[Assistant] Right, he was, he was coming in, he was in to defend the Lions in the NFC Championship game.


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[Assistant] Instead of going up by 17 points halfway through the third quarter, where Dan Campbell would have signed the line before the season starts that says, you could be up 17 on the road in San Francisco. He's defending his guy. He dies on the Dan Campbell Hill. We go for it. He brings out all the kicker hasn't hit a


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[Assistant] You know, I do think he has a chance. Now, there's some work to be done here. I like Joe Milton from this standpoint, right?


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[Assistant] If I was a team that had like, Hey, I got a starter. I got a backup that I feel pretty good. Right. But hey, my backup might only be here for another year or two. And then I got started.


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[Assistant] Right? Joe Milton would be the guy that I would want for that situation. Just sit in the room with him? Sit in the room for a little bit. I think he can be our backup a year or two from now and then, mmm, he has some elite


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[Assistant] There's still a lot of eye-popping throws, and there's still a lot of like, woah, he's standing in the pocket, he's seeing the field well, woah, that's a strike. And of course, he can move a little too, right? So, yea, but is there plays where he drops back and you don't know exactly what he's looking at or where the ball's gonna go? Yea, definitely is, right? There's definitely some of that. You know, not that it's Anthony Richardson, right?


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[Assistant] Those are things that worried me on the film last year with Anthony Richardson, and I knew I was going to be wrong about Anthony Richardson, like,


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[Assistant] You know, three weeks before the draft, cause I had all my friends like tell me like, dude, Anthony Richardson's amazing in meetings. He knows football, blah, blah, blah. And I was like, Whoa, okay. So he knows how to, he can play. He's not able to do this, right? I don't know any of that about Joe Milton yet. I don't know, but I do know that there is some, some, you know,


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[Assistant] Jaw-dropping skills that he can bring to the table that, yeaah, he's the guy I would take a chance on later in the draft to go, ooh, maybe we can hit something there.


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[Assistant] I think a lot of people do. I think he would be my next guy probably after the main six, right? That's how it is for me. Yea, I think he would be it, right? I mean, again, arm is pretty good, moves in the pocket, played a lot of football, right? I don't question whether he can't, you know, he can make every throw. I kind of look at Spencer Rattler as a guy where I go,


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[Assistant] He could be a starter one day, but at the very least, he's gonna be a really damn good backup for a long, long time. I don't doubt that at all. So yeaah, I liked him. And then Jordan Travis would be the other one that I think is right along those lines as well. You're not gonna wow you.


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[Assistant] Right? I think, you know, again, pretty good athlete. You're not going to go, oh my gosh, he's going to take over a game running. But he certainly can scramble and get first downs that way. Again, I don't know if I see Jordan Travis as ever being a starting quarterback.


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[Assistant] You know, I think he's like, just a tick down from where Spencer Rattler would be, who I think has a chance maybe to be a starting quarterback. Jordan Davis, Travis, excuse me, I look at and go, career could be really awesome backup for your football team.


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[Assistant] Exactly. That coupled with the size being slightly bigger.


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[Assistant] Out of the other group of guys, out of the main six, his throwing is definitely the best, the most consistent, and out of all that second class of quarterbacks, he can make the most, let's say wow throws, other than Joe Milton out of the group on a consistent basis.


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[Assistant] No, definitely not. Not in the SEC and that team and everything there. Right, right, right. I mean Oklahoma, you're the king of the Big 12. South Carolina, you're not the king of the uh, SEC, that's for sure.


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[Assistant] You know, we talked about one right off the bat and Jonah Ellis, right? Where it's like, I know he's going to be good, but how good, right? Like how good will that be? Gosh, there's a lot of good ones. Just, you know, I'm looking at edge guys right now too. I think Chop Robinson would be one of those guys. Without a doubt.


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[Assistant] Right? It's all traits. Not much production. It's not much production. It doesn't feel like it's very instinctive and like a true all-around good football player, but when you say go-go Rockets up my ass and him flying around the corner. Yeah, it's as good as it gets, but I don't know.


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[Assistant] Again, some of his sacks and some of the plays I see him make, I go, that's not going to happen in the NFL. He's not just going to get to go run at the quarterback unblocked or untouched because the right tackle wasn't paying attention to the ball being snapped or whatever else.


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[Assistant] He would be one, uhm, there's two I think right there. Go ahead, you got anyone throwing that?