[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Really amazing defeats in Tai Moi Tai. Uhm, and you see the opponent.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Teachings that we're talking about, which is being unperturbed, unmoved, not passive, but like unbothered.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, definitely not angry. Things like this. Uhm, and it's a quality in Muay Thai that's very highly valued because you have this opposition, but it's also a value


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Badass or whatever, like someone who's hit and keeps coming forward, like Rocky.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] A fighter at my gym who basically won his fight on Ning.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, Alex, who's a westerner, so maybe he's even more, uh,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Credited for being Ning because Westerners in general are not Ning. Uhm.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He, in terms of like, points or whatever...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] In that I come forward and I'm like hard and, um, chasing people down.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] If I look perturbed, frustrated, down on myself, doubting myself, irritated, flinching when I get kicked, all of that amplifies the impact that my opponent is having on me, whereas if I were Ning, it would seem like she's unstoppable.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Showing on my face my effort, basically. Uhm, I think it's a lot. I think it's probably like 40, 50, something like that.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Well, we were starting with that quote talking about how, uhm, Ty scoring, like literally how it's scored, is...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] My trainers in these examples have


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Transformed Yodwicha when Yodwicha stopped being a stadium fighter and became a, uh, like international fighter.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But, in Yodwich's style, which is my style, which is this coming forward style, if you look pissed,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Zombie like unstoppable, not zombie like stupid, but like, uhm, like this is not going to stop, but if you're coming angry, you're like that person's being manipulated and controlled by the person escaping them, like,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Having those lines more clearly defined or, uh,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Which is a similar thing, but in the example of those kicks that Grinew makes me do that I fucking hate. I really hate them.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] There's a very famous, uhm, Buddhist, uh, Lumpu, so like an abbot.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, he, when he would get his food from the alms, like to eat, in the day he would mix it all together. Like there was no separation of the food so that he could have no like or dislike of what he was eating. You're just eating to sustain group, the body.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And it's, it's kinda like that, like you just kind of stop, like,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Bring the baby back or something like this and he said, I can do this, but I need you to go to every house in the village and find someone who has never experienced loss.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, we have it in the west too. We just maybe would find examples and kind of, uhm, other ways. Like if you picture the mob boss.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, but we have the same, uh, quality of masculinity


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, but so you'll, in Thailand it's interesting because you'll get the Ngoc Leng, which is basically a gangster, uhm, and the monk.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, I think also there's uhm, when it's not your culture, there are awarenesses.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] In the way that you find very familiar tenets across all religions.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That come from very different places and you're like, oh my god, I also have that value. So uhm.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I think that as an outsider, it's been my experience to have eyes for things because growing up in something makes it quite invisible at times.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] When you come to Thailand and you fight ties, you are way behind the curve on the face game.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Totally. But there's a fighter that Kevin and I really like named Nong On. Uh, she fights in the north. Uhm. Oh yeaah.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] She has this, she's a knee fighter, which is interesting, uh, but she's not like an aggressive knee fighter, she doesn't come forward a lot. But she has this thing when she gets tangled, uh, in a clinch, where she like, just


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, there's a, there's a, maybe we don't have it so much anymore because of the way our country has gone. Uhm, but back in the day, being an academic,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, televised discussion between Gorthedal and who?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Which is what caused this whole thing is that like the line was crossed, real emotions came in.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] A gentleman and Ning and like having a intelligent conversation and the other one is like, no, your mom, like that doesn't-


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, if you never fight, you never step into a ring, you are not a fighter.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, and there are, there are things like that for Muay Thai, but the thing about it- There aren't!


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Thing that you learn and these are the five points of how you conduct yourself and you say the oath every- an oath every morning or whatever the thing is.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] There's nothing wrong with that, but for it to be codified like that, for you to make a rule or to make a, uhm,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Fundamental core importance is not recognized a lot.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Sized and come to Thailand and are not like, San Chai.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Taking power down, taking, uh, pressure down, taking all these things down to make it super light in order to hone your skill.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You are then not able to do that skill under the real...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, I use the, I use the example, uhm, of how you have to have some degree of power in your practice because if you're trying to


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] If you're trying to pitch a ball to someone and you pitch it too light, they're not gonna hit anything. Like, you can't throw a kick like this and expect someone to learn how to truly block it.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Because when I first started Muay Thai, my intention was not to fight. At all. It was, I don't know any of this stuff if I can't do it under pressure. Yeah. And if you're not sparring under pressure...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] No, emotionally, emotionally, sparring in Thailand is very light.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] There are times that it gets a little bit heated, but usually it is brought back down either because the people sparring know to do that, or because the trainer will fuckin', like I said, take Bank out back and teach him that you do not lose your cool.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The Jade Dragon set at my gym, sparring and clinching always ends in crying, it's just who's gonna cry first, and it's like, they are...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So it's like you're a kid, but we're also trying to develop you.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Jiayuan Yan, that someone kicks me and I don't kick them back, kind of thing. Like no, you, you...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] In the kind of old west honor, like someone wrongs you, you correct that like immediately, but you don't hold it.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] What I'm actually seeing is not usually 7 and 8 year old kids. That's like, you get to witness that, but that's not the main thing of what I'm seeing at my gym. The main thing I'm seeing is


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] About a year ago, he would always be given to, uhm,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Mid-50 to 60 kilo, uhm, westerners to clinch with.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, and he's like, at the time, he was like,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] 40 kilos? 38 kilos. So this is like a huge weight difference.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And Carabao would just wrench the shit out of these people's necks because he's strong and has enough skill to do this and they have size and not enough skill to stop him.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] What I care about is then put with somebody who's gonna wrench the shit out of his neck, throw him on the ground, whatever, blah blah blah.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He doesn't love clinching with me. Like, I throw him around a lot. Now that he's getting bigger, I can't do it quite as much. But it's like...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And I don't get bigger, so I have to learn, okay, this person who I used to be able to throw around, I can't anymore, how do I deal with that? It's that it's a pack. And so the dynamics change.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Right, so what I wrote in this thread, and which is also a very good example, is this, these westerners who come to the gym who like to go really hard and bully people, and they're not fighters, so they do their real fighting in the gym and all this stuff, I asked Pnue, I'm like, why do you not tell that person to take it down?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And he's like, I want him to understand that if you're gonna go hard against someone who can give it back to you hard, it's gonna come. Like you have to learn to control.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] This thing, and you've said to me, in my own experience of learning to spar, that I cannot use the, and I'm sorry that this is a fact of the world, but it is a very female thing because we're taught to do this. When you get hurt, you show that you're hurt.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And people are like, oh my god, I'm sorry, you're not supposed to hit girls, whatever, blah, blah. It doesn't have to be that obvious, but you teach people that's not okay by looking...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] What Kevin was always trying to get me to do in sparring is you get that person to stop by amping it up. I have a fear of escalation because I grew up with my three brothers. All bigger. If I got mad at Jiron and was like I'm gonna hit you.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I'm not big enough to win that fight, so you get hit back, uhm, and so you develop this fear of escalation.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He'll go too hard sometimes, and he's much bigger than me in terms of weight, but he's like little and doughy.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And that's, the reason I'm able to do that is because of...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Sparring as much as I do. It's not because I have a academic theoretical idea about how to do sparring and I read a parenting book on how to deal with 15 year olds.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He literally says, I do this so that they understand. Like when I was asking him, I'm like,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The one dude who was going too hard was going with someone who was not giving it back to him. And he ended up...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] This guy came to train and then his leg hurts and he actually didn't come back to the gym for a while.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And I'm like, that sucks kind of thing. And Pnue's like, yea, so tomorrow he goes with team so that he knows he can't be a bully. Like he basically gets beat up.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] When he's like, you wanna go with someone who's not gonna meet you at your level and not tone it down.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Let's see how that goes. But at the same time, like, he is a trainer of, Muay Thai is for fighting. In Thailand, there's no like, oh well this is just fitness, whatever. If you're doing just for fitness, you do the same program. It's like that is Muay Thai.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I have been fucking crushed, crushed in training and you have to come back and pretend like nothing happened.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You have to have this variety of experience as much as possible rather than, Sylvie, you and Carabao are the same size, you always go together forever. Right. And it's like, so now I'm really used to Carabao. Can we stop here?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It works, like, it finds its own way of working, and that doesn't mean it never changes, but like, if you have the one-to-one sparring of the like, one guy who's like,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Big fish at the gym and beats on everyone and whatever the thing is.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Like, if you have a pack of aggressive dogs and you put a dog in there, you're gonna get an aggressive dog.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] No, that's not true. When he would spar with people that he could have dominance over, when he was sparring with people who were much bigger and more skilled, like bigger ties, he fucking checked himself.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, in fact, like you were saying, they change. Uhm, you said earlier on a different subject about the, uh, Italian dramatization of everything, there's this like,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Sigh. That has become like a cough in the gym. Like everyone's kind of picked it up. It is like a cough.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Very established Thai boys who should be who you're looking up to have picked up this Italian sighing cough.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] There are people who are fluent in Thai by all...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It comes off weird. Like, we saw that advertisement on Facebook of a guy who was teaching.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Which is not my range of vocabulary and my like ability to pronounce everything perfectly, it's the ease with which, or the like comfort with which I'm answering something, the speed with which I understand and respond.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Where a discussion is taking place, be it just by the nature of it being someone's Facebook page or something, it's going to be...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Commented on by people who are friends with that space.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Well, because it is not a personal Facebook page, it's a, uhm,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] How things are shaped by where they take place is that having discussions on my Facebook page is like,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] We shape this by this being on Sylvie's Facebook page, whereas having it on a thread, taking it to a more neutral playing field, uhm,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] To me, personally, I am not a thread person. Like I am not a, I'm gonna go in a forum person. Uhm, so when Kevin was like,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Sylvie, I need you to jump on the forum and answer some of these things and do some of these things. Part of it was, uh, strategically for me, I get so many personal communications of people asking me the same questions over and over again.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Is this gym this that or the other thing? There are 50 other people who have that question and putting it somewhere where you can be like, hey, I've answered this question and four people who have been at that gym in the last six months have answered this question. That's awesome. Cause I actually don't have that direct experience, but


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, the temporality is very different, like, on a thread.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] We have one that's about like, uhm, first time in Thailand, so it's people who are giving advice on things they wish they had known or things that surprised them when they first came to Thailand, like, uh, it's gonna be hot.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, when we first came to Thailand, I remember we were trying to get my kick corrected at Lana. And we were like, hey Wong, can you help correct Sylvie's kick on the bag?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Add some element or correct some element. So like, trying to get the golden kick.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Kara Hot's always telling me that my kick is too wide, which it is. Uhm, then I was trying to do Ajahn Sarat's, like, keeping the, uhm, arm out for balance, and so I had practiced


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Stay to a point where I'm like, now my kick does this thing.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] No, I agree. I think that it's actually constantly trying to


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And that the thing about jumping on the kick, and specifically jumping on every kick, is that the jump is not the kick. Like, Master K, my first trainer, his whole thing is powers in the standing leg.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So people tense up their kicking leg, they distort their kicking leg, it's not loose enough so it won't whip, all of these things because you're like, well if I'm punching with my fist, I have to think about my fist.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The standing leg is really where the kick comes from. By having to jump on every kick


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You are not focusing on your kicking leg.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So, by having to jump on every kick, it's like, hey Sylvie, how about focus on something that's not, is my kick coming out the golden way? Is it doing what Surat wants me to do? Is it doing what Pnue wants me to do? Is it short enough? Is it long enough? Like, all of these qualities that are in the leg that actually matter the least,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Because the jump has nothing to do with that leg.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It's like how with Sagat, my elbow kept coming out, I was like chicken-winging on my punch.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] A trick, in a way. But it's also the brilliance of


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You can either be like, oh I don't speak Spanish, I can't do it. Or you can be like, I know five words and so it's gonna be like-


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It's, they suck cause my jump sucks. Like, I can't, like the problem is not the kick, the problem is this kind of thing. Uhm, it's, it's a nice little,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Green lights in a row, like as we're approaching it. And I happen to have been like fiddling with the window thing when that happened. And so I somehow in my mind think that fiddling with the window thing is changing the lights.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, no wonder he's so confident. No, his teeth is amazing because he's confident.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It feels liberating because of the departure from all of the things that I carry around as baggage of what I'm trying to do or not do with my kick. It also has coincided with Pinu making me kick


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] A lot. Like, the measurement of a lot when it comes to Pinot.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The way that works is also building belief simultaneously which is when you do something under fatigue.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And you just have to get the thing done, like you just keep doing it.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Your belief shifts. So as an example, I just


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Have this beautiful photo from my last fight from two days ago of me checking a kick.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I actually feel like I block quite a lot, uh, when Pinu is trying to kick me, or if I like, get into my fuck it zone, uhm, in sparring, or in like round four or five of a fight, round five of this fight, it was just like pew pew pew.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Cause it goes like this. So it's like, I'm like kick, kick, kick, kick, kick in this fight. And then...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Either I say, because I say it frequently, I never kick in fights, or Pnus being a dick that day and decides to tell me, you don't kick, then I'm like, I don't kick.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] skateboard on the rail, but just get the wheels off the ground.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] leaving the ground. It's like how Master K was like throw your body back in order to get your hip forward. The correct technique is not throw your body back, but you use this to get the hip forward.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And the most recent library session with Sifu, when he's making me hook, he's like, get off the ground.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] International placement, things like this, so uhm.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The rise of the three round fight is mainly


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Right, and part of it's, uhm, packaging in terms of how it's being


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Do you still know I talked about this in an interview that we, uh, did with him? Probably about a year ago actually.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And he's like, as they catch up, the rules change to accommodate them because the rules change to accommodate them before. So K-1 and kickboxing has no elbows because Ferran don't like elbows and aren't good at them, so they just took them out.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Max Muay Thai style that's called international is taking out the elements of Muay Thai that make Thais so dominant.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] To try to create more of a, uhm,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So it would be like actually what they're doing with modern


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, CGI movies where you can't track the battle scenes because it's just put all the Avengers in all at the same time kind of thing.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] This clash, which is the word that's used for any kind of animal fighting, so like dog fighting, beetle fighting, chicken fighting, it's all chon.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Chon is to clash, so like if you're in a car crash, it's Chon.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Fighters sue, sue is to, is to fight. So this is like, there is a difference between a beetle fight and Muay Thai. The point of these, these clashing, people love Chon in Muay Thai.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Gamblers love chaunt, but there are moments of it. It's not the whole fight.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Max Muay Thai in particular, but also a few of these other


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But this is not just how they're presenting themselves, that this is entertainment, like a show, rather than like...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It's literally sanctioned by a side part of the Muay Thai authority. They have different sanctions than a five.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That might be one of the reasons why, uh, female cards are so often three rounds.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And now there are no, well, there are, but there are not many female fights in Patia.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He says that what happened is that Max Muay Thai, which has TV,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, they always let ties in for free. And then they built a new stadium where they charged.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] They're let in for free. Like it's, it's not a like A, B, I love this style more than the other ones. Most, they're saying that Max Muay Thai is the most popular Muay Thai program on TV. It's also got an awesome time slot, like when people are


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And part of their tagline was when strangers stop being polite


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And it's not because, like, this is the way that culture should go or something, it's like it was...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] A combination of, uh, changes in Muay Thai that are already happening.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] When it's already going in a certain direction, it's like the river's starting to go this way, and then you like, dig a pit. Yea, and make the river really go this way.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] How business is conducted, how the art is conducted, how people are taught.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Training your fighters to how Muay Thai is done is a fact of Muay Thai. If it becomes three round fights where you're always pressing forward where the this that and the other thing is not important, that's what they will be taught. That is what


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It is kind of amazing, but it's a little bit, uhm,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Like when you're building a boy band and you need the one who's like the big brother character or like the tough one.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, or the girl band where you're like, you need the posh one and the slutty one or something, but uhm, he just became very...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, one-dimensional, one-dimensional maybe? I don't know if he would even use that term.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] People, people are complex, and so it's like, oh my god, am I actually sympathizing with the villain of this? And also, there's some serious ethical issues going on with the protagonist.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He fought against, uhm, a ranked fighter, so this was like a really big fight for him. There was like, uh, San Chai and Bokow in his opponent's corner. Oh, yeaah, this was a great thing. It was like a big thing.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Three and four got real fucking hairy, and he decided to go into a kicking war with this guy that he was not going to win, and then he ended up knocking him out in round five.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The long-haul narrative of how the fight went.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I make fun of Kara Hutt regularly for having a kicking war with cilipatite because why would you kick with cilipatite and he's like what else was I supposed to do?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So here's, here's what happens in the way we digest media in the world now.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Banks literal three second left hook knockout becomes a little clip meme. Doesn't tell you anything about the fight.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But you see this awesome badass moment with his walk off, and you're like, oh my god, Fank is such a stud, he's amazing, he's getting all these, like, wonderful compliments on Thai forums. I just went up to Chiang Mai, before it was like, oh my god, do you know Angie, cause she was the superstar of Petringer, and now people are like, did you see Tom Chai's fight it? Yeah, I'm like, yes, I saw it.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That will not budge, and they are very-


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It's not necessarily for my benefit.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeaah. Most women don't fight like that, so.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] There's this huge celebration pinu, like, through a party forum. Big thing. He put up these, like, giant poster banners around the ring.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Or maybe it was right after he passed away. Big significant thing to win the King's Cup, or any kind of King's Cup. So those are huge achievements for the gym.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Then, as we vaguely discussed before, uh, due to pressures and superstardom and influences and money and all these different things,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] PTT basically was pulled away from the gym and these posters remained. And, uh, they were there for years while PTT wasn't.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Can I even ask Pinu once? I'm like, why do you keep these here when there's kind of this... painful element to it?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And sell their contract. It's good for them because they're selling them to big gyms that have contacts and promotions that can make them stars. But a lot of times it's amicable. Many times it's not. In this case, it was not.


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[Assistant] So come around to the last couple of months.


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[Assistant] And Crenu lets me know that he's going to change the banners in the gym.


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[Assistant] ...thing that I actually felt quite good about.


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[Assistant] But then the, the like other part came, which was that he was making a, a poster of all of his, like,


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[Assistant] There are a couple, there are a couple of things that go into it. I am crying already.


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[Assistant] To have this inclusion of like, I, I achieved something in the name of the gym and we're together in this and they're proud of me kind of thing.


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[Assistant] Right. But when I'm doing it for myself, I'm like, I don't want to be ostentatious and put some huge photo on the wall of myself. I make smaller photos than what I make of, like...


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[Assistant] But it means that he singled me out on that poster and was like, no Sylvie should be doing something else.


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[Assistant] But, it's also very complicated. It cannot just be, like, this is amazing, I've been accepted, I am one with the boys and Pinu is proud of me.


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[Assistant] By having it there, by representing the gym, by having this like big placement inclusion,


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[Assistant] If I went with my gym the way that everyone does...


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[Assistant] Yep. Yep. And it's got this like, you are like these other things. And so I treat you.


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[Assistant] That is very real that I feel by that inclusion and by crew news recognition of me.


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[Assistant] By the very fact of how much that means to me, it is that high a price.


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[Assistant] Love and impact and then have it not hurt very much. It's not possible. So the risk of pain


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[Assistant] It's on food, speak, it's on all this stuff, like, you are fucking in there.


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[Assistant] It doesn't feel awesome, cause you're like, I totally thought I was like, in, or whatever. Uhm.


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[Assistant] I have many instances in which Thai people have said to me, you are Thai already. And it's like this kind of compliment of like, oh, well, you're like us, you have similar values and all this stuff, blah, blah, blah. And then there will totally be a moment that's like, well, but you're not Thai. So it's like, it's just like inside outside thing.


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[Assistant] I don't like that separation. It is a defined us and you separation that I totally even put on myself, but like the inability to efface that line.


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[Assistant] And because this is my, like, deep wound, uhm, I...


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[Assistant] Uh, the line is not completely blurred here, blah blah blah, whatever. This exists within Thai families, like...


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[Assistant] But, but it's also complicated because we interpret that through our lens of culture.


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[Assistant] So like, we have this high value thing of like, step siblings not being seen as step siblings, like there's no difference between whatever.


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[Assistant] Ties are like, that's a fact, you say it. And there's no pain to it. It's like, you'll get called fat here. All the time.


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[Assistant] And it's not a compliment, but it's also not the like, judgment of your soul that it is in the West. So we struggle with it from a Western...


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[Assistant] Necessarily how it's being used here. So that separation is through the lens of


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[Assistant] Watch what your weightlifting routine should be to like build your quads or whatever the thing is. But if you don't know that it's gonna make you sore and it's gonna make your knees hurt if you don't have your toes pointed in the right way and things like this, if you don't know that that's gonna happen, the part you need to prepare for is that. It's not like,


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[Assistant] Well no, I had, I had listened to things and read things, but I kinda couldn't...


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[Assistant] And so, when I was struggling to figure out how the fuck do you visualize an entire fight in real time,


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[Assistant] When I don't know who I'm fighting or what their tendencies are or like what I actually should do when someone throws this strike at me or whatever.


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[Assistant] I think a lot of, uhm, people who are raised... male.


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[Assistant] Uh, and given a lot of confidence and self-assurance, they're like, I can totally be a superstar in my head, and like, you have this freedom to make up the whole thing. Uhm, I don't have that, but when I realized that


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[Assistant] I can do it from the front porch all the way through the house down to my old pole room in real time. I know every inch of that house.


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[Assistant] Hey, I'm coming up against this obstacle in training. This is what you're supposed to do in that situation. And then this is why it's hard.


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[Assistant] Yeah, and there are times that I can't do it, because I'm... I'm hitting the block. You know?


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[Assistant] I think that's categorically what they're all called. What Nii is doing and what Kara is doing is using the same toolbox. Like, they teach the same tools.


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[Assistant] And so you're like, I kinda can't go smash the wall, cause I don't feel like I'm gonna go.


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[Assistant] Kara is like, you also need the hammer. Like the hammer is also the tool you need for this. But it's not put in the context of like, pick it up, feel how fucking hardcore that hammer is. Instead it's like, the hammer's a little bit too heavy.


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[Assistant] So I'm like, I'm gonna use this hammer. I'm gonna use this hammer to fucking build that wall today. And then you go and it's like there's a puddle and you can't work on the wall or like you're kind of like unable to swing the hammer the way that you want it to or all of these things. You can't be like hammers don't work.


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[Assistant] Also puts the nail in the wall. You might be like today, no nails are going in the wall. Like today it's not a nail in the wall day.


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[Assistant] Teach you that. You have to learn that on your own. You have to have trust in your ability to assess the usefulness of a hammer that day.


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[Assistant] That's what I'm talking about, about having


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[Assistant] And you are training that into yourself. You're baking it in. You are like...


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[Assistant] Uhm, and there are days when like,


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[Assistant] Is more progress than if I like...


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[Assistant] People who are gonna view this, but what's beautiful about it is that because it's so vulnerable, because it's hard for me, I know that it's valuable.


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[Assistant] This is how you get articles that are like, I'm gonna write an article on how to lose weight for fights, how to cut weight for fights, and then all the article says is it's hard to cut weight for fights.


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[Assistant] I was starting to cry because I was really overwhelmed and then I didn't. Good for me.


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[Assistant] Someone else who recognizes that, or I have faith that there's gonna be someone else who recognizes that. If I did not get some kind of like, yes that's me too.


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[Assistant] When you're teaching women to be confident or teaching women to, uh, deal with feelings and thoughts that they have


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[Assistant] There's a secondary layer which is the, uhm, internalized policing.


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[Assistant] Telling a man who's not confident to picture his perfect day and then manifest it and just become confident, it's kind of a one step process. It's not an easy step.


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[Assistant] And so you have to deal with that one and then get to the underlying one to make any changes. And because there's this like whole layered version, you very rarely get down. You have to clear so much overburden.


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[Assistant] You have to like, you have to sink through various layers.


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[Assistant] But for me, it requires a little bit of pissed off, like just a little bit. Uhm, even succeeding in that thing I'm trying to do,


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[Assistant] So you're trying to achieve it and you did, but then you have a feeling about what that means because you don't


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[Assistant] It just goes straight. We ran out of time, so I don't know if we need to restart this, but.


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[Assistant] Messages being sent about what you're wearing that you may not want sent, there are consequences to the way you dress that you may not want. Like, there's no just fuck it, I'm gonna stand here and be brave end of story. There's all these complicated ramifications that come out of that. So,


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[Assistant] As, as a young boy who's like becoming more confident and assertive or whatever his thing is, he has a day where he like stands in and is really tough and like,


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[Assistant] And it's like, so did I achieve it or not? Like, there's no, like, hooray, end of story.


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[Assistant] Yeah, uhm, and, and it's also like the, the results of what you're trying to achieve is kind of more of an unknown landing zone.


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[Assistant] And I think that's for men and women, but I think far more for women just because of the way that we're


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[Assistant] I don't know, one of the things that Nii talked about in his program, which you loved, was


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[Assistant] So you totally think that you have a thought and a belief, but they're both thoughts and the feelings conflict. And so...


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[Assistant] To, because of this layering effect, this like, kind of superimposed image.


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[Assistant] By having the tool that you consistently go back to, the manage your mind about which one you're choosing.


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[Assistant] Anything. Like if there's something you want to talk more about that we talked about or questions that you have.


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[Assistant] Okay, so there's, I do a lot, I do a lot of voiceover. If you guys, uh, watch my content, you know I do a lot of voiceover, but, uhm, voicing over these men speaking for themselves is not right. You want to hear them, so that's why we're doing, uhm, subtitles and translation, which is far more arduous.


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[Assistant] Part of the Muay Thai library is not only archiving the technique of


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[Assistant] This week's episode is brought to you by Hillsdale College.


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[Assistant] If you're like most listeners, you listen to this podcast because you know you can learn valuable lessons from history. One of the most unique characters in history was a man who led his country through incredible peril in a time when the fate of the modern world as we know it hung in the balance. And yet, this man inspired his countrymen to endure a conflict like few others.


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[Assistant] Our friends at Hillsdale College would like to invite you to learn more about the incredible life of this fascinating man, one of the greatest leaders and statesmen of our time, Winston Churchill.


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[Assistant] You can get exclusive access to this new free online course studying the life of Churchill by going to hillsdale.edu slash revolutions and signing up today.


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[Assistant] Almost a million people have taken Hillsdale's renowned courses like Constitution 101 and American Heritage, and as a history fan, you won't want to miss this one.


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[Assistant] Get exclusive access to Hillsdale College's new course on Winston Churchill right now. Go to hillsdale.edu slash revolutions and sign up today.


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[Assistant] So we left off last time with the reaffirmation by the directory in January 1798 that liberty and equality would remain core pillars of colonial policy.


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[Assistant] But if you'll recall, the third pillar to the directories colonial policy was unity.


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[Assistant] The goal of the Termidorian Republic was to totally integrate Saint-Domingue and every other French colony into the French nation, one and indivisible. So that meant that they weren't going to tolerate the kind of independent authority currently being wielded by André Rigo and Toussaint Louboutin.


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[Assistant] Since first word of the Estates General had reached Sendomang way back in 1788, nearly ten years ago now,


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[Assistant] Powerful factions in the colony have been bucking the Metropole's authority. Whatever faction happened to be most powerful in the colony at any given moment always seemed to have an eye on independence. First it was the whites, then it was the coloreds, and now that Toussaint Louverture has ascended to power, he's clearly not interested in Paris telling him what to do.


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[Assistant] Now the third commission had tried and failed to bring the colony in line as so many others had in the past, but in the spring of 1798, the French government decided to give it another shot.


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[Assistant] Now if you're surprised to discover that Sandalmang has been a hotbed of revolt and revolution for nearly a decade now, then this will really surprise you. We're now approaching the fourth anniversary of Toussaint Louverture's defection to the French. He's now been a general of the Republic longer than he was a general in the slave insurgency.


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[Assistant] And in that time, he has been a loyal and faithful defender of the Republic. Laveau never had to embellish the stories of Toussaint's fidelity back in Paris. Too much.


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[Assistant] As we've seen, introducing French representatives who have never set foot in the colony has been a very dicey proposition.


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[Assistant] I mean, Toussaint was an able administrator. His vision for Saint-Domingue was right in line with what the directory wanted. He commanded the loyalty of the bulk of the armed forces. I mean, why bring in another blundering white man when I'm right here? I'm a brigadier general in your army. Commander in chief of the colony. I'm not some random guy off the street.


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[Assistant] And amidst this blundering, Toussaint began to recognize that the interests of Saint-Domingue and the interests of France might be permanently diverging.


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[Assistant] Which is both true, but also the conclusion that nearly every prominent leader in the colony had reached once they achieved local supremacy. It's funny how that works.


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[Assistant] A fundamental importance to the growing strain between Toussaint and Paris was the course of the Revolutionary Wars, which in 1798 saw two super important developments. First, the British will withdraw from Saint-Domingue, and second, the Quasi-War between the United States and France will erupt.


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[Assistant] Both would have a profound impact on Toussaint's decision making, as these two developments offered an opportunity to stop being forever economically and politically tied to the French.


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[Assistant] So the British had begun their invasion of Saint-Domingue back in the fall of 1793, with high hopes that they would be able to quickly pry the colony away from the French Republic, which was itself about to collapse anyway.


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[Assistant] When both the Republic and Saint-Domingue proved themselves frustratingly resilient, the British settled in for an occupation that had now dragged on for years with very little to show beyond the initial gains they had made.


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[Assistant] A renewed surge in 1796 saw more men and resources being sent to San Domingue, but they had yielded almost no tangible benefits.


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[Assistant] By the end of 1796, the Royal Ministry back in London was coming round to the idea that Saint-Domingue might not be worth it. It was turning into a black hole for both money and soldiers.


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[Assistant] So in early 1797, they dispatched a new general to take over, and one of his key orders was to cut the cost of the occupation to the bones, to find local sources of revenue, and recruit local troops, that is, black men, to maintain the British occupation.


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[Assistant] Now I probably shouldn't get off on a tangent here, but I'm going to do it anyway. Because the general who showed up to take over the operation in February 1797 was a guy named John Graves Simcoe.


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[Assistant] Simcoe had joined the British army in 1770, just in time to get shipped to North America, where he was amongst those soldiers besieged in Boston during the opening round of the American War of Independence.


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[Assistant] He then became a captain commanding a regiment of grenadiers as the British chased Washington through New York and New Jersey in 1776 and then he was wounded at Brandywine in 1777 and holds the famous little distinction of being the officer who ordered his men not to fire on some fleeing continentals


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[Assistant] One of whom just so happened to be George Washington. And this is just one of many of Washington's near-death experiences during the war.


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[Assistant] Simcoe wintered in Philadelphia, and then fought at Monmouth Courthouse in the spring of 1778. Then he stayed in the north when the war turned south, but did march down to Virginia to meet up with General Cornwallis's army, so he was there for the surrender at Yorktown in 1781.


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[Assistant] In short, Simcoe was involved in a ton of the principal engagements of the American War of Independence, and he wrote a full account of his actions that is an excellent primary source, and he is currently being portrayed as the principal villain in AMC's revolutionary spy drama, Turn, in case you happen to be watching it.


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[Assistant] But if Simcoe was just some British officer who served in the American War of Independence, I wouldn't be going off on this tangent.


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[Assistant] During the war he tried to raise a company of blacks to fight for the British, but new orders took him elsewhere before he could see the project through.


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[Assistant] After the war, Simcoe briefly joined Parliament, but was then appointed Lieutenant Governor of the New Colonial Zone of Upper Canada, which is basically modern Ontario.


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[Assistant] Upper Canada was created so that British Canada could develop independently from French-speaking Quebec.


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[Assistant] In this new role, Simcoe played a key role in passing the Act Against Slavery in July 1793, the first legislated Emancipation Decree anywhere in the British Empire, beating Santanax's General Emancipation Decree in Saint-Domingue by about six weeks.


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[Assistant] The act against slavery allowed current slaves to be kept as slaves, but stipulated that no new slaves could be brought into Upper Canada, and that children born to slave mothers would be emancipated at the age of 25.


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[Assistant] So General Simcoe already has his own little place in the slowly grinding wheel of history that eventually crushed slavery.


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[Assistant] After returning to England, he was finally posted now to Saint Domingue in February 1797, where as I said, he was supposed to maintain the occupation on the cheap.


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[Assistant] And though official British policy was that slavery would be maintained in any areas they controlled, it's not hard to see that Simcoe might be a more believable face for the British to be putting on their efforts as they tried to recruit more blacks to their cause.


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[Assistant] In the end, the British had about 6,000 black men under arms, which was more even than Andre Rigo had in his Legion of the South.


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[Assistant] With these forces, Simcoe made a play at retaking Mirabele, and he did succeed in temporarily displacing Toussaint's forces, but they couldn't hold what they had taken, and Toussaint was able to move back in.


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[Assistant] And though the British did fend off a furious attempt by Tucson to retake San Marc shortly thereafter, they lost their hold on Port-au-Prince.


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[Assistant] And Republican forces re-took control of the Capitol.


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[Assistant] So as the winner of 1797 set in, the British were like, this isn't going anywhere. And they appointed a new, new commander.


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[Assistant] One whose principal calling card was not that he was a friend of the blacks, but that he was incredibly skeptical of the British occupation and argued that it should be ended as quickly as possible.


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[Assistant] But just to finish up with General Simcoe, though, he went back to England, and in 1806 was named Commander in Chief of India, a post that he was supposed to take over from the recently deceased General Cornwallis, but Simcoe died in England before taking up the post.


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[Assistant] General Simcoe is a super interesting guy, so thank you for indulging that little tangent.


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[Assistant] The first was the aforementioned British General Thomas Maitland, who would bring with him a clever new British approach to the situation, which we'll talk about at length here in a second. But first, I want to introduce our latest blundering white man from France, General Joseph de Duville.


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[Assistant] Edouville was, first of all, a noble. He joined the army of the Ascian regime just before the revolution, but had liberal enough notions that he stayed on as his brother aristocrats fled across the lines.


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[Assistant] He fought at Valmy and eventually became a brigadier general, but then spent 1793 bouncing in and out of the army as he was suspended, arrested, reinstated, and arrested again, all due to his very suspicious nobility.


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[Assistant] He landed finally in jail once and for all, and was likely on his way to the guillotine when Termidor arrived and saved his life in July 1794.


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[Assistant] Now one thing I've mentioned a few times now is the lack of care that the various French governments have taken in selecting the senior military officers who they were sending to Saint-Domingue.


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[Assistant] Now, Governor Blountland was diligent enough, but he was weak and in over his head.


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[Assistant] That old man whose name I can't remember was outmaneuvered by the second commission and sent home like three days after he got off the boat. And then Galbo. Galbo got the job as a total afterthought and proceeded to trigger the destruction of Le Cap and mass emancipation. Not exactly what he had been sent there to do.


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[Assistant] Their only really good appointment was Laveau. Laveau was solid. But it's entirely likely that he got the job just because he was there already. So now we come to Edouville.


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[Assistant] And once again, the lack of care in the selection process is going to make a mess of things.


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[Assistant] Hey Duville was nominated and confirmed by the Council of 500 in April 1797 when colonial policy was being driven by the reactionary white planters before they were all expelled in the coup of Fructador later in the year.


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[Assistant] But then after Fructidor, instead of reassessing the candidate chosen by the planters to impose French authority on the chaotic colony, the directory just kept Hedouville on, and let him go.


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[Assistant] They don't appear to have ever wondered why the planters wanted Haydnville, nor if he was the right man to ensure that liberty and equality remain pillars of colonial policy.


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[Assistant] Because while Hedouville was liberal enough to have remained in the Revolutionary Army, he was totally retrograde on racial stuff. And the small cadre of officers he brought with him shared his retrograde views. And you can just bet Toussaint Louverture is going to love that.


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[Assistant] Haduville's explicit mission was to reassert central control of the colony. That is, render it merely a Caribbean department, not an independent fiefdom.


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[Assistant] But just to be clear about this, Edouville is not coming in as a new governor general, even though he himself was a military officer. He was a civilian administrator.


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[Assistant] Because part of this reasserting of central control was putting the military under civilian administration.


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[Assistant] Now, Haydouville knew that putting the Sandalmang military under civilian administration had been attempted by the Third Commission, and in the South, it had been a disaster that led to the massacre of the Whites in Lakai in the summer of 1796.


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[Assistant] And we know that he knew this, because Head Nouveau carried an arrest warrant for André Rigo, who the Metropole blamed for the massacre.


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[Assistant] Though, he did also carry verbal instructions to use the arrest warrant as a stick to bring Rigaud into line, and that if Rigaud played ball, Edouville could cancel the warrant.


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[Assistant] So, Hedouville's first act as the directories agent in the colony put both Rigaud and, even more especially, Toussaint Louverture on notice that they might have trouble with this new arrival.


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[Assistant] Rather than sailing into La Cap directly, which was now run by Tucson,


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[Assistant] Edouville landed in Santo Domingo, over on the old Spanish side of the island.


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[Assistant] It was still pretty much the Spanish side of the island. Neither Spain nor France had spent much energy completing the colonial transfer. There was a small company of French officials, led by Philippe Rome, who were now nominally in control, but in the main, life in Santo Domingo had not changed one little bit.


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[Assistant] It is generally supposed that Edouville put in at Santo Domingo to get the lay of the land first and avoid immediately falling into the orbit of Toussaint Louverture.


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[Assistant] But, while in Santo Domingo, he was given a very keen piece of advice by a French officer who had been serving on the island for years.


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[Assistant] of Toussaint he said, with him you can do anything, without him you are powerless. And Edouville would learn that for himself soon enough.


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[Assistant] With the arrival of Haduville on the island, the new British general in charge of the occupation, Thomas Maitland, who appears to have done very little before arriving in San Domingue, he's just an aristocratic officer who rose up the ranks,


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[Assistant] He got to work on his plans for the reorientation of British policy.


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[Assistant] Toussaint was obviously all ears and even more so when he got the terms.


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[Assistant] All Maitland wanted was assurances that whites and coloreds who had been living in British occupied zones wouldn't be punished as collaborators when the British pulled out.


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[Assistant] Since this was exactly the kind of generous reconciliation Tucson was all about, I mean, these were almost flawless terms for him. And that was kind of the point. Playing to Tucson.


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[Assistant] What Maitland was trying to do most especially was snub Hedufil, who was after all the official representative of the fresh government, and deal straight with Toussaint.


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[Assistant] Maitland hoped to create a rift between the new French administrator and his commander in chief.


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[Assistant] And then also build up Tucson's ego a little bit.


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[Assistant] But Toussaint was nothing if not savvy, and he duly forwarded everything to Haidavel for consultation and approval.


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[Assistant] Edouville said, yeah, this looks good, keep negotiating, and I'll be over there soon to finalize the terms. But Toussaint didn't want to wait for that.


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[Assistant] So he turned back to Maitland and said, let's make the deal. And frankly, I will do you one better.


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[Assistant] And before Heduviel got to Le Cap, the British had pulled their forces out of Saint Mark and a few other ports in the west and south.


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[Assistant] The only zones they still occupied were the original two ports they had seized, Jeremy and Mole San Nicola.


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[Assistant] Marching into San Marc in particular must have been a triumphant moment for Tucson.


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[Assistant] Twice he had failed to take the city in brutal battles. And true to his word, Tucson did not exact reprisals on anyone.


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[Assistant] When Heduville finally got to Le Cap in June, he and Toussaint met face to face for the first time.


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[Assistant] Ed Oveil congratulated Toussaint for negotiating the British withdrawal, but when he found out the full details, he was pretty angry.


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[Assistant] Official government policy was that men fighting for the enemies of the republic were classified as emigres and forfeited their lands. They were liable to be executed, not rehabilitated. And this was to say nothing of the fact that Toussaint had closed the deal without him.


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[Assistant] But if Heruville was angry with Toussaint, it was nothing compared to how angry Toussaint got with Heruville and his staff. These guys apparently did very little to hide their disdain for blacks and coloreds.


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[Assistant] They were free and open with their slurs, and insinuated that it sure was a good thing properly civilized white men were here to take over for the savages playing dress-up with military uniforms that they had probably found laying on the ground. They referred to Toussaint Louverture as, quote, a monkey with a handkerchief on his head.


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[Assistant] So, unlike Santanax, who Toussaint had maneuvered to get out of the way while still basically agreeing with his principles, Toussaint started maneuvering to expel Haidouville while hating his guts at the same time.


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[Assistant] In July 1798 then, we get a fateful moment in the history of the Haitian Revolution.


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[Assistant] As a part of a general conference of the Republican leaders, Andre Rigaud came up to Port-au-Prince, and from there, he and Toussaint traveled together to Le Cap.


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[Assistant] It was the first time that these two men who have been the dominant Creole leaders in the colony since 1793 have met face to face.


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[Assistant] We know nothing about what they talked about, but the general supposition is that they agreed to back each other if Edouville really tried to like, take over the colony.


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[Assistant] At the subsequent meeting, they must have said all the right things, though, because, for example, we never hear anything more about the arrest warrant for Andre Rigo.


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[Assistant] Though it's also possible that Edouville could see that he had no way at all to execute the warrant anyway, since between them, Toussaint and Rigaud controlled every soldier in the colony.


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[Assistant] After this meeting, Tucson went back to the West Province in August to work with Maitland on the terms of the final, final British withdrawal.


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[Assistant] And this time, Hedovel told him to stop negotiating with Maitland directly, and Toussaint just ignored him. Much to Maitland's evident delight.


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[Assistant] Maitland and Tucson then held a personal conference at Mole San Nicola on the eve of the agreed British withdrawal.


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[Assistant] Maitland hosted a dinner and presented Tucson with some parting gifts.


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[Assistant] And it was around the time of this meeting that Maitland and Tucson talked real turkey. Not the logistics of the British withdrawal, but what happens next. Now both men had an agenda, but for the moment, their agendas lined up pretty well.


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[Assistant] Tucson was well aware that aside from labor troubles, the single biggest obstacle to reviving the colony's economy was the British naval blockade.


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[Assistant] He was also aware that one of the biggest boons to the economy would be if that blockade was not only lifted, but if sand domain could sell to British merchants.


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[Assistant] Now this would of course been like treason against the French government, so we're only talking hypotheticals here. But that sure would be nice. And Maitland agreed that it would be a very enlightened course of action.


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[Assistant] Now the one thing that Maitland really wanted was to make sure that General Toussaint didn't try to export slave revolution over to Jamaica.


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[Assistant] Now, Toussaint never appears to have really pursued this idea, but British spies knew that back in Paris, the Directory had been in favor of this idea, and that inciting a slave insurrection in Jamaica was a part of Haduville's secret orders from the Directory. So, Toussaint and Maitland struck a side deal.


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[Assistant] Tucson pledged not to allow the gospel of slave revolution to spread to Jamaica, and in exchange the British would lift the naval blockade.


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[Assistant] And there may in all of this even been some direct promises to back Toussaint if he wanted to make a bid for political independence. But Toussaint did not trust the British that far just yet. But the seed was planted.


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[Assistant] So as Tucson was cutting the beginnings of this independent foreign policy for San Domingue.


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[Assistant] Hédouville was going on an inspection tour of the provinces and was finding it very difficult to reestablish French authority.


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[Assistant] What he was trying to do at this point was take back direct possession of the lands that had defaulted to the state when their owners fled and restore that property to the original white owners, not counting those listed as emigres.


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[Assistant] And now I know what you're thinking. What's the problem with this? This has been Tucson's policy all along. And so it has been. But now a crucial wrinkle has been added.


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[Assistant] Land that had not yet been reclaimed was leased to Tucson's officers who now occupied and ran the plantations


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[Assistant] And you can imagine their reaction when this cadre of racist French officers blundered in trying to boot them out.


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[Assistant] Bringing with them all the classic old racist tropes with them, that blacks are too lazy and dumb and short-sighted to run a plantation like a real civilized gentleman.


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[Assistant] So when Hedouville complained to Toussaint, Toussaint said, yes, yes, I'll look into it. He even issued papers confirming the rightful ownership of property by such and such an old family, but then he never lifted a finger to enforce those papers. So we're seeing a change in Toussaint's attitude.


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[Assistant] He had been happy to let the whites come back. He welcomed them with open arms. But the window on that was drawing to a close now.


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[Assistant] Because if he had to pick between white planters who had still not yet claimed their property and his senior officers who had, Toussaint was going to support his officers.


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[Assistant] As a part of his economic revitalization program, Heruviel also brought with him some pretty heavy new restrictions on the cultivators.


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[Assistant] His officers, who were inspecting the plantations, wrote mockingly of the cultivators, who focused on their garden patches rather than the cane fields, saying these animals only live for the moment, they can't see the bigger picture.


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[Assistant] Missing, obviously, two key points. First, the economy of San Domingue was still in shambles, and we actually do need food to eat. We can't live on sugar.


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[Assistant] And then of course second, bleep you. Harvesting sugar stinks. We're free citizens now and we don't want to do it. If you want sugar so bad, you go harvest it. Bleephole.


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[Assistant] So to make sure that the cultivators kept working, Edouville implemented new labor codes requiring cultivators to stay on their plantations for a minimum of three years and up to six years in some cases with stiff penalties for moving around.


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[Assistant] And this was greeted with angry shock by the black community.


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[Assistant] Remember, when Sontanax had decreed emancipation, he had said you have to stay on your plantation for one year.


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[Assistant] It wasn't hard to see that this might be a prelude to re-enslavement, which was the omnipresent fear of the poor black community.


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[Assistant] Now as we've seen, Toussaint himself was pretty cool with forcing the cultivators to work at cash crop planting, and there is some speculation that he was all too happy to have Edouville issue the unpopular decree and take all the heat for it, while Toussaint reaped the ultimate rewards.


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[Assistant] As Heduviel struggled to impose his will on a population, and its leadership, who were making it clear they did not care what he wanted, he also started to assert control over the military.


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[Assistant] Technically, he was the supreme authority in the colony and could promote and dismiss officers at will.


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[Assistant] So over the summer of 1798, when and where he could, Hettofuel promoted white officers to replace blacks for a variety of pretexts, with a focus most especially on securing the coastal garrisons.


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[Assistant] The fort was pretty important, and so Tucson handed it over to one of his most trusted generals, Moise.


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[Assistant] Now I can find very little solid background information on Moise, except that he was a former black slave who had joined the original insurrection in 1791, and had quickly attached himself to Tucson, and then stayed attached to Tucson ever since.


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[Assistant] The two had become so closely linked that Toussaint adopted Moïse as his nephew, which I'm not exactly sure how that works, but that's what they say happened.


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[Assistant] The other really important thing that is always reported about Moise is that among the black generals, he was the one most sympathetic to the black cultivators. He was very popular in the black community and seemed genuinely interested in their well-being.


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[Assistant] More so certainly than Tucson himself, which will become an issue down the road.


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[Assistant] At the moment though, the issue was between Moise and Hedouville.


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[Assistant] It reveals suspected that Moise was fomenting some kind of rebellion against the new labor laws.


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[Assistant] And in mid-October, a scuffle at Fort Liberty broke out between black and white soldiers, and Head Ouviel seized on it as a pretext to remove Moise from command.


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[Assistant] In his place, he appointed a white officer to run the military garrison and a black civil officer to run the town.


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[Assistant] Now whether Moise was fomenting rebellion before this all happened is an open question.


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[Assistant] But after it happened, he definitely started to foment revolution.


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[Assistant] Marching around the plantations of the northern plains and raising cultivators to help fight for him.


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[Assistant] He also sent an urgent dispatch to Uncle Toussaint, saying Heruviel was making a power play, we have to stop him.


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[Assistant] So Toussaint ordered one of his other key generals, Jean-Jacques Dessalines, to lead a strong force down to Le Cap and arrest Edouville.


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[Assistant] Daseline surrounded the cap, and Hetoville was like, welp, that's it for me.


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[Assistant] The only way he was going to avoid being taken into custody and then god knows what after that was to leave the island. So that's what he did.


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[Assistant] On October the 23rd, 1798, Edouville and his little cadre of racist officers got on a boat and sailed away.


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[Assistant] Also taking this opportunity to bolt was Julian Raymond.


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[Assistant] He had supported Toussaint since his return to Saint Domingue, but Toussaint was obviously moving in an autocratic direction, and Raymond got out before he became a casualty of Toussaint's ambition.


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[Assistant] Which will, unfortunately, be the fate of Moise.


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[Assistant] Now once again alone to do his own thing without interference. Toussaint went back to charting his own course for Saint-Domingue in the troubled international waters of the Western Hemisphere.


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[Assistant] Having secured a pretty good deal from the British, he now had to focus on Sandalmang's relationship with the United States.


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[Assistant] As we've seen, Yankee traders were just about the only merchants willing, or able, to do business with San Domingue. And they had been practically the sole conduit for colonial exports and imports since 1791.


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[Assistant] So you can just imagine how Toussaint felt when he found out about the XYZ affair.


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[Assistant] Because that's where we're at now. Let's see, we're at episode 3.48.


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[Assistant] Talleyrand has just demanded a massive bribe from the American ambassadors to do something about French attacks on American shipping, and the puritanical Yankees have just gotten their panties in a bunch and walked out.


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[Assistant] This led to the Quasi-War, which as I mentioned, played out mostly between the two navies in the Caribbean.


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[Assistant] Which means that this is all playing out right on top of Toussaint Louverture's head, and it's really, really bad for business because American merchants are now barred from coming to Saint-Domingue ports.


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[Assistant] In the United States, attitudes towards the French in general, and then Saint-Domingue in particular, had changed since the refugee crisis of 1793.


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[Assistant] Anger over the XYZ affair had hardened public opinion against the French, and so when a new exodus of whites fleeing Port-au-Prince just before it fell in mid-1797 landed in Philadelphia, they were treated with hostility and suspicion, rather than sympathy and charity.


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[Assistant] Frenchmen with connections to Saint-Domingue were amongst those specifically targeted when the infamous Alien and Sedition Acts were passed in the spring of 1798.


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[Assistant] But this anger at the French didn't 100% transfer to Saint-Domingue.


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[Assistant] The Northern merchants were suffering badly from the loss of trade with the colony, and they lobbied Congress to let them keep going.


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[Assistant] Meanwhile, over in London, the American ambassador to the court of St. James, Rufus King, started talking this all through with his British counterparts, and then wrote home recommending that if the Americans really wanted to hurt the French, and simultaneously lessen the threat posed by this island of armed blacks, they should keep trading with Saint-Domingue.


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[Assistant] Give all those ex-slaves an incentive to work rather than forcing them in their desperation to take more drastic measures.


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[Assistant] Now this, of course, was great news for Toussaint Louverture, and after expelling Hadouville, Toussaint was able to make his own case to the American government for maintaining trade.


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[Assistant] In November 1798, Toussaint made his first formal approach to the American government.


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[Assistant] He wrote a letter to President John Adams saying, look, this war has got nothing to do with me. We are not fighting you. We are not doing anything to you. In fact, all we are doing is being a great source of trade for your merchants that is as lucrative for you as it is necessary for us.


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[Assistant] My goal will always be to protect American shipping, not attack it. Please lift the embargo.


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[Assistant] As a follow up to this letter, Tucson dispatched two agents to Philadelphia.


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[Assistant] One, a white merchant from Le Cap named Joseph Bunau.


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[Assistant] The other, the resident American consul in the colony, a guy named Jacob Meyer, who was willing to vouch for Tucson in the coming negotiations.


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[Assistant] These two met with Secretary of State Timothy Pickering, who was happy to receive them, because Pickering was a staunch Federalist, and very pro-British, who absolutely had visions of breaking Saint-Domingue away from France, and this all seemed like a golden opportunity to do just that.


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[Assistant] In January 1799, Bunel then finally met with Adams in person and made the case for lifting the embargo on San Domingue.


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[Assistant] But while he pleaded with Adams, a bill was already being drafted to do just that.


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[Assistant] The recent election of 1798 had played out in the midst of anti-French war fever, and the Federalists enjoyed their last happy election before being obliterated by the Jeffersonian Democratic Republicans in the years to come. But for the moment, the Federalists now controlled both the House and the Senate,


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[Assistant] So in February 1799, they passed a bill that first extended the trade embargo on the French, which was due to expire, and then second, allow the president at his own discretion to exempt certain regions from the embargo if those regions weren't actively involved in the fighting.


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[Assistant] Everyone knew that this was all just code for Sandalmang.


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[Assistant] And for the moment the bill was passed, it was referred to as Tucson's Clause.


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[Assistant] President Adams signed the bill into law, and American merchants were once again allowed to trade with San Domingue. Now this is great news for Toussaint Louverture, though the deal was not without future dangers.


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[Assistant] In bilateral negotiations between themselves, the British and Americans concocted plans to protect trade with San Domingue by not allowing anyone but British and American ships to come and go.


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[Assistant] So ultimately, Tucson was still at the mercy of powers beyond his control.


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[Assistant] And then the British and Americans also secretly agreed that this would only go long so long as the war with France did.


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[Assistant] After that, they would reappraise their relationship with Sando Mang, which, after all, was a country run by insurrectionary slaves, which was a very bad example to be setting for the rest of the Western Hemisphere.


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[Assistant] If Toussaint was planning to declare independence from France, he was off to a great start.


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[Assistant] He had the economic support now of both the British and Americans, and was operating totally independently of the French government.


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[Assistant] And he controlled the majority of the armed forces in Saint-Domingue. So that can only mean one thing. It's time for a final showdown with André Rigaud.


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[Assistant] Rigaud and Toussaint had been working as partners officially for years, but as we discussed back in episode 4.9, they had been quietly rivals for the loyalty of the blacks from the beginning, and Toussaint clearly had the upper hand.


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[Assistant] It was also pretty obvious that once Heruville got back to France, that the directory would send along another delegation or another commission, probably a bigger one this time, and possibly backed by armed forces.


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[Assistant] If they decided that Tucson was a real threat, they could sail around and land in Lakai, and then combine with Rugo's Legion of the South and push north. None of this was implausible.


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[Assistant] And I don't know if Toussaint knew this at the time, but on his way out the door, Hedouville had written an official dispatch to Andre Rigo that was designed to sow his own seeds of disharmony and pave the way for a possible future joint operation against Toussaint.


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[Assistant] Ever since Toussaint Louverture had been promoted to Lieutenant Governor, he officially outranked Rigaud. The dispatch sent by Head Ouviel,


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[Assistant] It said Tucson is not your superior. He cannot tell you what to do.


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[Assistant] And Rigaud, who is no doubt very pleased to see this officially confirmed,


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[Assistant] Because he had never had any intention of letting Toussaint Louverture tell him what to do.


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[Assistant] Next week, the final showdown for Control of Sandomang will play out.


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[Assistant] Traditionally, the showdown has been described in strictly racial terms. That the Blacks under Tucson fight the Coloreds under Burgo.


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[Assistant] And while this is broadly true, it's not really true.


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[Assistant] Rigo had black supporters and allies. Tucson had colored supporters and allies. And it's not like Tucson was fighting for black supremacy.


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[Assistant] He was still all about that tri-color vision for San Domingue. But we'll get into all of that next week when we delve into the War of Knives.


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[Assistant] My parents were supportive of it. They don't watch anything, but they found out and they were like, oh, like, you know. Usually I get scared when my parents think when I talk about childhood, but they were.


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[Assistant] Yeah, and today, today only for the election day, it's free. So if you join today, onlytrish.com is free for the next 30 days. So if you want to see tip for tip.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Because, you know what, once you're in there, you're so enticed to stay. I just gotta get people in because they don't really realize all the goods. Like, mine is really good, not to like, whatever. My only thing is like, really good compared to everyone else. I subscribe to so many people, and mine, without a doubt, gives you the most, like, for five dollars a month, but now it's free, and people just stay.


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[Assistant] Yeah, she is not the brightest bulb. Uhm, I, I saw she did something, people were calling out for photoshopping over the weekend. And you know what, can I just say, as much as I was like against your video, I mean, she really does overdo it, cause I did see the side by side from this weekend.


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[Assistant] But it's like a different profile, different everything.


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[Assistant] Philip DeFranco, we saw you on Linz DeFranco's TikTok.


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[Assistant] No, I think, like, cause the, we should, we should fuck, marry, kill, iDubbbz, Jack's Films, or Philip DeFranco, you have to kill, like, avoid one, we won't get into the James Charles scandal of killing somebody.


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[Assistant] He said he'd kill Shane Dawson, which I think is a little aggressive, saying, knowing that he doesn't like that person. That'd be like me saying I wanna kill Philip DeFranco because everyone knows I don't like him so it's awful aggressive.


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[Assistant] Nobody really likes James anymore. Okay, I would uhm. I just took too much junk and I'm just on a little crack right now. I feel it.


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[Assistant] Just look the other way, like literally look like I wasn't even talking, he was sitting right at my table, one seat away from me. He's kinda rude. Okay, and then I just-


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[Assistant] I'd have this girlfriend's only fans as a ripoff. She, uh, acts like it's all like raunchy and nude and stuff and then I like, what? I'm like, oh, it's like Instagram photos, which is fine, but you're like, start someone.


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[Assistant] She says they're sexy photos and they are definitely not sexy. It's just her like standing there. They're not like sexy poses. Her ass isn't like jutting out for like a dick in it or anything like that.


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[Assistant] I was very disappointed and then she makes you unlock the photos so I'm like paying and like there's nothing and she kinda does tease like titties and it's just like her like holding them. I'm like well say you're holding titties don't say they're titties.


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[Assistant] I mean we're in California. And Israel. It's hot there.


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[Assistant] Can we come with you? Sure, that'd be fun. You go first class or coach? Sorry not to get distracted.


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[Assistant] You are bougie as fuck. You're the bougie as- I think you're the richest person I know off YouTube.


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[Assistant] You have multiple houses that are over 15 million dollars. Am I exposing something?


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[Assistant] Okay, well you have multiple properties that are worth a lot of money and I'm always like, okay.


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[Assistant] I mean, on those chain series they said like, you know, the private jets and stuff come out of the costs and stuff you don't pay for private jets.


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[Assistant] I think you're worth more. I'm gonna wait for my bets on that.


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[Assistant] Okay, you said a read of the room, we're like literally a room of nerds right now. Like I'm just saying like-


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[Assistant] Well, everything comes beforehand with him because he got it all from history books. Like, it's all historically accurate.


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[Assistant] So are you telling me it's like a, like a probably a quote from somebody?


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[Assistant] Everything I do is for gay people. I kinda care less about straight people. I just do everything for the gays.


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[Assistant] Those people should burn in hell then if they think trans people aren't like people deserving of like rights and like protection and places to work. Like that's some bullshit. Like those are the people that go to fucking hell with Hitler.


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[Assistant] I love my Jesus and He is the ruler of everything. He controls everything. It's all up to Him.


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[Assistant] You should watch God's Not Dead starring Kevin Sorbo. It makes some really good pieces against scientists who try and deny God and his existence. It's pretty good. Kevin Sorbo. Yeah.


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[Assistant] Dude, you have a fucking dissertation there about why-


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[Assistant] I feel bad for him, I think he might be, maybe something wrong with him, like a little off and so I feel like we shouldn't make fun of him because I think he's a little off, right?


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[Assistant] Okay, so it's not cussing. Why do they always say it's like cussing and things where words like...


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[Assistant] I get it. Wait, I get it. I'm just saying, like, you were actually, I remember you would, like, text Moses in, like, the group chat and be like, dude, what the fuck? Why is she tweeting, I love you in Hebrew? Like, you were getting, like, actually, like, offended by stuff I was doing, and I was like, or like that, I said he had, like, a


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[Assistant] And vice versa, I think you like the attention because you dressed up as Keem with the Keemstar puppet. I feel like you also want his attention. It's like a thing that keeps you-


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[Assistant] This one is like, he kept asking me to send me proof, and I'm like, I'm fucking drained, I don't trust you, I asked you not to leak information, I shouldn't be talking about this, trust me how I'm not out to get you. I said, you're escalating a very serious problem, can you leave me alone? He goes, I wanna know the fucking truth, and I said, that's all I ask, you're not the police, you're not here, you're exploiting all this, it's sick, it's sick, just stop.


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[Assistant] Right, but like I said to that, like you did call Tana a Twinkie, like I think that's like something he thinks is funny, it's like gross and like low.


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[Assistant] No, you don't know this person. They watch the podcast though, and they're like, she's just so hot, like why is, why is she with Ethan, like she can do so much better, like what the fuck.


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[Assistant] Is it like bad? Like I think it's just like his people, you know what I mean?


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[Assistant] Why do you sit like that? You just wanna look as unflattering as possible. You love being ugly, I feel.


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[Assistant] Yeah, but you're not an ugly person and you just like to make yourself ugly for what reason? More relatable. So people don't know you're booty. Relatable.


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[Assistant] I think you probably need a therapy instead, because it sounds like you didn't resolve the issue, because now you're trying to be as ugly as possible, like doing the unflattering photos you always do, and the angles. I think there's like a deeper issue, you're like, if I look ugly, it's like the, what about Bob, where if you fake you're having a heart attack, you're not having a heart attack, so you're like, I'm gonna be ugly as possible so people can't make fun of me for being ugly. I'm not ugly all the time.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Cause like, I hate the way I look too, like I hate my body and I feel fat, but I never look at it and like, ew, you're disgusting, I can't look at myself. Like, I'm like, oh, sometimes I look hot, you know, so to have that, whereas like, in you, you just hate looking at yourself, it ruins your day, like, intense.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You look skinnier than me, but can I tell you why you look skinnier than me? It's cause your shoulders are small. You have small shoulders, and I have very broad shoulders, so I look like I'm like twice your size.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeaah, he just died. Shit, well be careful, don't do too much, peep them.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But that's how you know your personality sucks. When you're at that level, like Harvey Weinstein had it like-


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Okay, well, that just goes a test to James Charles personality.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Can I just say, I used to have a little crush on Audrey Simpson, but then-


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, like if he was the one- Can I tell you that's why I used to only date famous people? Because I thought if I died-


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I don't want to kill myself. I'm saying if, if I'm gonna die, I'd rather we die at the hands of a famous person. Uhm, you know, it's a little more iconic to my story.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] To my legacy. As opposed to Moses killing me, it's not that iconic, as if like, OJ Simpson killed me.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Okay, bougie. Can we get Joe Rogan on the podcast?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Oh, bias. You can't be biased like that. He is in a car with James Charles, which by association I'm gonna just cancel him anyways.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Remember when Hugh Grant fucked that prostitute over Liz Hurley when he was dating her and he fucked Devine Brown off Sunset Boulevard? Like, Hugh Grant? You don't remember that?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Like, oh, these are the kind of people I can't stand. Like, just fucking stop being so fucking messy. Like, damn, tell her and keep it private. And if there is something to expose, he's so scared of always getting exposed because there's shit to expose on him. I just hear the worst things about him. I don't really care. I don't know him, but I still don't like, I don't like his ass.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, it's fucked. It is fucked that you can't, like, sue people for that because people, like you said, can say whatever they want.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Well, that's what Tati said, and I talked to James, and we're all good, I mean, but were they? Like, I'm sure he was just like, go after them or whatever. But uhm, yeaah, I think being humble is the best way to go, being cocky. First of all, I've never been cocky, I've always like, hated myself and thought I was a piece of shit, but I'm saying in general, people should be humble. Because, and can I tell you, that's actually worked for me.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Mmm, this is gonna sound so stupid, but like quick question. If he has never had sex, I just thought about the sound, like how does he know he doesn't like vagina?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I don't know, maybe I am, but I thought I was bisexual for a long time, I identify as bisexual, and then I was like with the woman, and the first woman I was with I was like, ugh, I really don't like this, but then now I'm with girls, I'm like, oh I like it, but am I bisexual or?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I don't think he follows me. I don't send unsolicited pussy pics anywhere.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Oh, that backfired on me a couple times, the guys have actually turned gay. Or I don't think they turned gay, I think they're just like, I'm gay.