[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I can go train and test gear and shoot my bow every day, you know, and that's where it becomes a 365 kind of endeavor. Even though you may be, you know, you and I probably get to hunt a little more than most, but let's just say 30, 45 days, like out of a year.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] For me, I'm always thinking about gear. I'm thinking about honey and I'm, I need to channel my inner accountant from you and try to figure out this. Uh, so full disclosure, I'm going to, I'm going to maybe take it in a slightly different direction, but full disclosure.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I'm a, I'm a GoHunt insider now. And, uh.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Quite frankly, Trail, who's a friend of ours here, and uh, but listening to you and uh,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And Cory. Yeah. And I'm not gonna say my wife is a super big fan of Go Hunt.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I actually got yelled at on Sunday, rightly so, rightly so, uh, because, you know, Arizona apps, they just passed for Open Analo, Utah's coming up, I got a bunch of points, I'm trying to figure out my season, and I just, I went deep, I went deep.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I'm telling you, it's one of the best, it's one of the


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] computer savvy as some, but just super intuitive and easy to use. And I do have to call trail and ask him a few, few questions on how to help.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But for me to have access to, like, I just wouldn't have the time, or quite frankly, maybe the knowhow to go get the information that's right at my fingertips to then go, oh,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, anyways. We don't want to get you into any trouble. No, I'd be, I think it's a brilliant idea, quite frankly. You'd probably get a lot of people listening just to, just to hear the zingers from, from what?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Well, so it's interesting, it's interesting you mention this because...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, I booked my trip to come down here and you know, my wife and I were both in the military for a very long amount of time and we don't have children. So, you know, quite frankly, holidays, anniversaries, like it didn't, I don't want to say it didn't matter, but we celebrated when we were together and the actual date didn't matter. So I become.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, but John, you're not in the military anymore. Like you have to think about this. So then I tried to go down and like deflect. I'm really good at deflecting.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I'm really curious to see if they want to circle back, if they want to keep going deeper, if they want to talk broader.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Oh, well, I mean, the last couple of years in September in Montana, I mean, it has been all over the board, literally from week to week. It's, I mean, swing, the spectrum swings from one end to the other. So I think that's a great one because you want a really versatile system.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And, uh, and the couple key pieces are really kind of carry you through. Yeah, we should, we should do that. That would be good. Hopefully Corey can join us one time. This is twice now we've had. I just don't think he likes you, John. Well, I'm, I was.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Welcome to the Elk Talk Podcast with Randy Newberg and Corey Jacobson presented by the Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The Elk Talk Podcast is brought to you by the Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation, ensuring the future of elk, other wildlife, their habitat, and our hunting heritage. To become a member, go to rmef.org.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It's also brought to you by Gerber, uh, go to gerbergear.com and learn about the knives, the vital, the big game vital, the gauge of premium, all the things that we use when we're out in the woods and not just knives but also some really cool multi tools that they have.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The Oak Talk Podcast is also brought to you by GoHunt.com, uh, go to GoHunt.com and sign up for the Insider.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The insider is changing how haunts and hunting information are found. No doubt about that. Use promo code ALKTOCK and when you do, when you sign up for the insider, you're going to get $50 of store credit. Mad money in their gear shop.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That's the plan. Uh, rumor has it that with my four little points, I'm guaranteed an Arizona out tag this year. So I'm glad you're going to tell me how I can do that with four points, Cory.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Well, Arizona, the easy part of Arizona is the deadline, right? Yeaah. February 11th, 2020.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Is the deadline. So don't miss that. Whatever you do. That would be bad. That would be bad.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Arizona, unlike some other states, does not have this opportunity where you can go and buy a point afterwards.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] If you want to point in Arizona, you got to do it before the February 11th deadline. Uhm, and Arizona.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, unfortunately requires that you buy a non-resident hunting license up front in order to even buy a prey. So.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And then there's the $15 either application fee or bonus point fee. Even though they're the same. So me, I look at it and say, you know what? I've invested in the license. Even if my odds are really low, I'm still applying.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Versus just buying a point. Because the price is the same. It's $15 either way. I may as well shoot for the stars.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And hope that I draw some tag that, yeaah, my odds are really low, but you never know. I've had it happen in Arizona before, so, I'm a believer. Yep.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And we'll go into that process and how that works. One thing, this is always remarkable. People ask, how does your son have 18 non-resident deer points in Arizona? Well,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Little hint here if you have young people in your family.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] If they're age 10 to 17, it's only $5 to apply your non-resident child in Arizona.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That's how my son built so many planes at just about no cost. Starting at 10 years


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeaah, now that he's 29 years old, yeaah, it costs him a bit more, uh, but for the first 8 years,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I don't know, loss leader, if you'd want to call it that, because by the time they're 18 and have to pay the full fee, they look at it and say, wow.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I've got my eight points, bonus points, and I've got a loyalty point. I'm not walking away now.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Well, we're gonna go through the highlights of this, uh, we don't have enough time to go through every bit of detail. The strategy articles out on the Go Hunt Insider are super, super helpful.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Pay attention to it because there's always these little things that change like Cory mentioned, uh, that you just need to be paying attention to. So, should we walk through how the Arizona draw works?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I think I got it figured out, but every time I think I got these dates figured out, I forget something or overlook something, but.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] In the draw, it happens in two sequences, so.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Arizona takes 20% of all tags and puts them over into, I think they call it the bonus pass or the phase one or part one.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And what that is, is, how it works is, everybody goes into that draw, no matter how, what point level you have.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But that 20% of the pool of tags goes to the people with the highest points. So if you have


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] A lot of points. There's a good chance you could draw in that first part of the draw. Uh, you might get your tag there. But there's a little, few caveats.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And Corey had mentioned that non-residents are capped at 10% of the total tags in any hunt code. Well, no more than half of that 10% quota can be filled


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] In this first part of the draw. So it leaves at least half, the other half to be filled in the second part of the draw that we'll get to. But.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Everybody goes into this first bonus pass, part one of the draw, and fights over that 20% of the tags.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Knowing that only half of the non-resident quota can be met in this first part. And then anyone who doesn't draw.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Resident and non-resident alike goes over into the, the part two of the draw, which some people call it the one-two pass or part two.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, and the second part of the draw allocates the remaining 80% of the tags based on a bonus point formula. So.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Actually gets to, alright, I've got 4 points, so I get 4 raffle tickets. Cory's got 11 points, he gets 11 raffle tickets.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] There's a greater likelihood he's gonna draw than, than the likelihood that I'll draw, but not guaranteed that he'll draw before I draw. Because one of my


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, one of my four raffle tickets or random numbers I get assigned.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] To summarize that process, 20% of the tags go based on the person with the most points.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Everybody goes in that draw. If you don't draw there, you go into the 80% pool or the second phase and that is allocated based on your point, uh, uh, bonus point system. You, you got, you know, the more bonus points you have, the greater the likelihood, but no guarantee.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And then, like Gorge said, very seldom do those of us non-residents have any chance at the third part where they look at the third, fourth, and fifth choice. It's close to zero. Yeah.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] We should go to Vegas the first week of January. And she looked at me as if she knew something was up. Instantly heard.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I love your family, but yeah, it made it a lot easier to decide to go to Vegas if I could go take the non-resident Hunter Ed class because it's a one day class. I think it's 12 hours you sit in that class.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I am sitting here with four points even though I drew an elk tag in Arizona in 2017. Because I have my permanent hunter head point.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I also have the loyalty point because I've been applying in Arizona since Moby Dick was a minnow.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] If you apply for any species for five consecutive years,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The sixth year, you get what's called the loyalty point. And as long as you continue to apply for that species, your loyalty point stays intact. So.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I've got my loyalty point. I've got my hunter head point.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And I've got a bonus point from 2018 and from 2019. So going into the 2020 draw.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I've got four bonus points, even though I drew.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I've owned, uh, you know, two years ago or well, three years ago. So.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Whoa. Yeah, so. Why wasn't I aware of that? Probably because I already have it.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That hunter endpoint can make the difference in Arizona.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] By this time next year, if you have not acquired that point for you, I don't think we're going to be friends any longer.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] On a daily basis, it gives you grounds for not being my friend any longer. But, yeah. Well, that's, I didn't know that. That's because, yeah, and hmm. Well.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So this is, how do I say this? This is a good news, bad news sort of thing. The good news is, Arizona manages their wildlife.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Based on actual data, they observe the harvest reports, the bull to cow ratios, the total populations observed, the cow to calf ratios, and


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I talked to one of their biologists this last weekend, and he said yeah, like as I was asking him about


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He said, you know, when, when we fly and this is what we see and what we get for harvest data and everything else that goes into our model.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Sometimes we bump these numbers up and sometimes we bump them down. Well.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And the reason being is they're models of what they've seen for total numbers, all this stuff.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Is telling them, hey, time to throttle back. In 2017, no, 2018 and 2019, they bumped them up because their models said, hey, we got more bulls out on the landscape, so let's crank tag numbers up.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Well this year they're cranking them down and in some units they're cranking them way down. So, I have these spreadsheets I go through every year.


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[Assistant] I say, here's how many tags there were last year for this hunt code and that hunt code. And it tells me, I look at that because in years when they're cranking tag numbers down, it means that their models say, Hey, we got to crank them down. But in the years when they're going to crank them back up, that tells me.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] There's probably some older age class bowls in there.


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[Assistant] Because the prior years have had numbers down, so that first year when tag numbers go back up, why am I telling everybody this?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I want to be the person applying that first year when they crank tag numbers back up.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Because by them having it lower in the years prior to that means total bull numbers are higher.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The, the bull to cow ratio is higher in the age class just by the fact that lower tag numbers means more bulls were recruited into the older part of the population. So that's why I keep track of that information.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] This is one of the years ago that it's going the other direction. And I'll just use some examples. And these are units that I track.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Well the archery tag, uh, cuts are not nearly as dramatic as the rifle tag cuts. So the late rifle seasons, you're going to see way more tags cut than what you are in the archery and early rifle seasons.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Just an example, Unitlawn, a great unit. The archery permits are going from $300, they've been at $300 for years and years. They're going down to $250.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Well, 50 less tags means 5 fewer non-resident tags, using the 10% cap. So.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, unit 3A3C, I've never hunted it, uh, but I still keep track of it. Uh, archery tags are going from 135 to 100.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Whereas a few years ago, they cranked it from 125 up to 135. I think it's been there for two or three years.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Unit 4A has always been a sleeper that I kind of keep on my radar because I've done two analogue puns out there and I see a lot of elk when I'm out there. Analogue punning.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But this year, something is really changing because they're lowering


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The archery numbers from 200 and almost 220.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Down to 120. So not quite a 50% cut, but close.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, so you carve a hundred tags out of that unit. That's ten less non-resident tags. Uhm, so let's see, some of those.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You know, the early rifle and early muzzleloader hunts, they give away so few of those tags that the odds are really, really tough anyhow. And the odds are going to go from a really, really tough to really, really tough plus one or minus one.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Just to use some examples, uh, like I talked about unit one, what they're doing with the archery tags, they're cutting 75 of the late rifle tags. Wow.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Unit 7 East, they're cutting 50 rifle tags. Unit 9, late hunter, cutting 100 rifle tags.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So you start adding all this up across all these units.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And that's part of why they have the quality that they do and the age class that they do is they actually take information and they use it for management.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, and I give them huge accolades for that. Even if it means in 2020, my four points are gonna...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It's going to take much more of a miracle for me to draw with my four points than it would have if I had four points in the prior year.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And look and say, wow, as my unit, one of those units, my favorite, you know, kind of the one I've always had my eye on or the one I always applied for.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] If your unit is one that had a lot of tag cuts, be ready. You might not draw this year, even if you were in that kinda...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Close to being guaranteed in the 20% bonus round with that drop in the number of tags and it's going to be tougher.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, point of that being, when you have the points to draw, go.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It's easy to look in the rearview mirror because we never know what the changes are going to be, right? We don't know. They don't know on some of this stuff.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But, don't take anything for granted that it's always gonna stay the same. These point systems...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Tag numbers are static and are changing, sometimes change dramatically, sometimes only change a little bit. But if it is a year that you could go, go. Yep. Absolutely.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You know, uh, we'll talk about that offline.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] My wife, I have hard drives stashed at work, I have hard drives stashed at home, and she'll ask me, what's on all these old hard drives?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] This is a lifetime of data, of spreadsheets, honey. It's more important than our will, our healthcare power of attorney. This is historical data related to draw odds, going back to about 1996.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I have draw odds going back to when it was before, it must have been before Al Gore even invented the internet. And it's, it's stuff that is supported by the old sheets I used to tear out of the regulation books of what the draw odds were the year before.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, a lot of people ask me, Randy, you talk about using GoHunt a lot, how can it save you that much time?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Well, now people know how much time I was spending building spreadsheets and maintaining spreadsheets.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, just, you know, the only thing is, is Gohan and all their odds are historical.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I try to use my spreadsheets for some sort of prospective projecting and


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And being able to manipulate the GoHunt database, uh, if people go into filtering 2.0 and


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You know, I admire them for managing the way they do.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] When conditions are good and more opportunity can be available.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I wanna see states crank up tags. And when the numbers get below whatever their thresholds or parameters are, you know what? Knock those tags down.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Really figured out a mix of how to meet that.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, I don't think it's just by accident. I think it's because of a whole lot of hard work. Yep.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, I, I do think though that both of those being midterm and long-term options.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It's less of a secret anymore because so many people have seen us filming and hunting down there.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But Arizona has some units called limited opportunity units.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And those are units that within their management plan are places that Arizona does not want out to.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Three hunts in limited opportunity units.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Well, what's the big deal about limited opportunity units? If you go to their proclamations, you scroll way down and it'll say limited opportunity. Well,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The season dates are really good dates. There's rifle seasons in September and October. And,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] A big chunk of those haunts are in those units that were listed as limited opportunity.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, because knuckleheads like me are getting on my podcast and out talk podcasts and out on our forums saying, well, you know, there's not a 10% cap in these units.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Well, you can do certain things in their filter 2.0.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Well, I've been very lucky in Arizona. I've drawn


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, I've drawn limited opportunity hunts twice. Uh, I've drawn three late rifle tags. And some people would say, well, Newberg, you've been applying since 96. So that's 33 years or 23, no, 23 years. Gosh, Rainey, you're not that old. Don't give it 33, 23 years.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So I've drawn three late hunts, two limited opportunity hunts and an early rifle hunt. What's that? Six tags in 23 years. That's pretty good. I'm averaging about four, four tags or four years per tag.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] What has helped me is having the two permanent points has been a huge help.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So what are we forgetting? Oh, if you do go out to Onyx Maps and buy any of their apps, use promo code ALKTOCK. Or if you go to Go Hunt and sign up on their Insider, use promo code ALKTOCK, right?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Since last time I screwed up what the benefits are of using that promo code, can you tell them? Cause I'll mess it up again.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Couple other things with Arizona. If you do apply, they're going to give you until February 27th to change your credit card information in case your credit card got compromised or something.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Maybe some people are different than I am, but there's no way that I'm


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Pound, uh, archery, uh, what the minimum draw weights are and what the, any broadhead restrictions by state. And I haven't looked them all up, but I looked it up in Arizona just to see what it is. And it's interesting that Arizona only requires 30 pound draw weight for archery. That's interesting.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And, uh, I don't see where there, I couldn't find any restrictions on mechanical versus fixed blade heads. The only thing I found in Arizona was it has to have, uh, a cutting width of the metal edges, they have a definition in there about it, of seven eighths of an inch. Yep. So.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And for those applying for muzzleloader tags, I don't think Arizona has a restriction on anything related to muzzleloaders.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Well, the odds are I'm going to be applying for late rifle tags with all four points I have.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] For me, it's just manipulating the Go Hunt database to see which one's going to give me the best odds in the 80% draw or the part two draw. And I know those are all going to be light rifle tags.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, I've been there on quite a few late rifle-ons, either my tag or helping people. And that's some noisy country to stock around in. People who are shooting those elk.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Man, they gotta be the ninja. I think a lot of people might sit water, but boy, that's a roll of the dice. What if you get a big snowstorm and there's water everywhere? Which happens every few years, so I'm not gonna roll the dice to that degree.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I'm sure my 499 resident points are going to get me one of those late September huns.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] No, Arizona Elcon succeed all expectations has been my experience.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And uh, tons of public land. Most of their elk occur in the areas with abundant public land. It's rare to see a no trespassing sign. I mean, there's a few of those limited opportunity units where you run into that, but


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Well, I hope people, uh, are paying attention to that. I think after this Arizona one, the next state, if I remember right, is either going to be Utah or New Mexico. I never remember.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That's because they drew in 2014.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, I gotta look. I heard rumor that Montana's moving their deadline to April 1st or March 31st or something. Someone told me that the other day. I said, wait a second. It's been March 15th since forever.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But either way, those three states are the next three on the docker, right? Yep.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] budget and time to apply everywhere but if you don't


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Don't use that as an excuse to, to not have a strategy in place and you'd still go Alconton every year.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, we should do that. Would you put it on our calendar? It's on there.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And if people wonder why we focus so much on tag drawings, it's because it is so critical to going hunting.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And when we started this podcast, one of our goals was to help people hunt elk more than they do otherwise, so.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] A lot of information we're throwing out there, but it's all with the purpose of getting people out in the hills.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Well yeaah, hopefully they don't listen to this podcast and know that they got lumped in with the 11 long haired friends of Jesus.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Let's shut this down before I bring up some other 1970 country music song.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] My question is, uhm, so I turkey hunt and I elk hunt, uhm, and I'm trying to figure out


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Welcome to the Elk Talk Podcast with Randy Newberg and Corey Jacobson presented by the Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And with that, Cory, we are ready to get into it. Let's jump into it.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You owed the world the tragedy there.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, great to meet you guys. I love your videos. Uh, your YouTube channel is awesome. Uhm, two questions I have. How's your friend Bo Beatty doing? And do you have a hunt set up with him this year?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Welcome to the Elk Talk Podcast with Randy Newberg and Corey Jacobson presented by the Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The Elk Talk Podcast is brought to you by the Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation, ensuring the future of elk, other wildlife, their habitat, and our hunting heritage. To become a member, go to rmef.org.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Gerber, uh, go to gerbergear.com and learn about the knives, the vital, the big game vital, the gauge premium, all the things that we use when we're out in the woods, and not just knives, but also some really cool multi tools.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] This Talk Podcast is also brought to you by GoHunt.com. Go to GoHunt.com and sign up for the Insider.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The insider is changing how hunts and hunting information are found. No doubt about that. Use promo code ALKTOCK and when you do, when you sign up for the insider, you're going to get $50 of store credit, mad money, in their gear shop.


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[Assistant] For sure. Don't listen to this thing for anything related to outgunning. This is all about technology and running your own podcast.


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[Assistant] Are you still amazed how many people download this thing?


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[Assistant] Well, my wife has a different perspective on it. She says that's just proof of how good you are at feeding a line of BS, she says.


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[Assistant] But, uh, since it was my time to come up with the topic, uh, for those who don't know, Cory and I alternate, uh, kind of what the topic's going to be.


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[Assistant] And I don't know how you sort these comments we get Cory, but I have a whole Outlook folder of emails from our listeners. And it is, it takes a long time to sort that now. When we first started, it didn't take that long.


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[Assistant] A general category but maybe some specific categories also and I, I found a bunch of people asking about how we handle wind.


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[Assistant] I found a bunch of people talking about thermals both in times of the day and in seasons of the year.


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[Assistant] Then I found a bunch of where people were asking us about cover scents, attractant scents, stuff like that, which I think that is probably people who maybe are coming from the whitetail world where that stuff's pretty popular.


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[Assistant] And then I just started typing in the search for all kinds of equipment items and


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[Assistant] The number of people who are asking us questions about certain new equipment items or hey I heard about this, I heard about that, uh, it caused me to wonder are people


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[Assistant] More interested in equipment than they are the knowledge and experiences that come from being out in the field and investing in their mind more than investing in


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[Assistant] Well, over at Elk101, don't you guys have, is it for your Elk Hunting University course or is it just Elk101 where it's investing yourself or something? You have some sort of motto.


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[Assistant] So, if someone wants to sign up for the University of Alconning course, they can use a promo code, can't they?


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[Assistant] As the guy who did a lot of those videos for your segments on late season and post rut, I think I need to be allowed to throw the disclaimer out there that I'm not responsible for the outcome.


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[Assistant] Oh gory gosh, I'm so sorry man. Let me get you in touch with someone who'd be a better person to do that. I know I was just kind of the last moment sort of filler that you needed, but uh,


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[Assistant] Well, I hope so. Uhm, yeaah.


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[Assistant] But, uh, the first one of these emails, uh,


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[Assistant] Elk usually don't live on these flat, consistent landscapes.


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[Assistant] How do you deal with the wind that you feel on this ridge compared to what the wind is doing?


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[Assistant] And then, uh, the, the scent, uh, and odor elimination products is the, those couple questions are what sent me into the


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[Assistant] Wind, I'll start with wind. And to me, wind can have so many different impacts on how hunting, or how my hunting strategy gets put into place that day.


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[Assistant] Uhm, and I'm not talking thermal, I'm talking wind and I'm talking also probably more as it relates to


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[Assistant] Uh, obviously, no matter what you're doing, you never want to come in from upwind that goes without saying. Uh, and you can't control the wind, so you have to figure out how do you


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[Assistant] You know, I just make that assumption that people know the distinction and wind is pretty much what your prevailing wind is going to be.


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[Assistant] The thermal is, and one is micro, one is macro, I guess would maybe be a way to say it. Uhm, you get to the top of a ridge.


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[Assistant] And you're going to feel what the prevailing wind is. And a lot of times the prevailing wind can dominate what


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[Assistant] The thermal effect is if the wind is strong enough. But that said,


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[Assistant] There's a lot of times, probably more times than not, where the thermal will mess you up.


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[Assistant] More than the prevailing wind. So, a thermal might be...


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[Assistant] Hopefully you can put the question behind us, the difference between wind and thermal.


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[Assistant] From a technical standpoint, even though we use them interchangeably, but I think that gets us to the next point.


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[Assistant] Uh, some of these people asking, uh, what time of day does the thermal switch? And there's no real time of day, back to my point of it's not like there's a switch where it says, well, it's nine 30, so we got to hit the switch and everything's going uphill now.


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[Assistant] The, the time of day that will switch in November is way different than the time of day when those switch in September, just because the days are longer, the arc of the sun and its direct heating of the surface of the hill or of the, of the ground will happen at different times of the day in November than it will in September, so.


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[Assistant] I just, I break it down to its most basics that thermals are a function of heat change.


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[Assistant] It can be ambient air temperature on a really cold, damp, dreary day where you wake up at 36 degrees and it never gets above 42 degrees that day. You're not going to have a big change in thermals because you don't have a big change in temperature. And shaded slopes?


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[Assistant] Understand what causes a thermal. And no, that's probably what you're gonna have to try to manage rather than what the quote unquote wind is for that day.


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[Assistant] Where you're at, the thermal is coming uphill very consistently. So you start making your move. Okay, I gotta get a crossover to that ridge that bowl is on.


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[Assistant] And as quick as you get down into the more shaded part, all of a sudden you're like, uh-oh.


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[Assistant] You need to be thinking or at least anticipating what is that thermal doing over there because once you get over there and that thermal betrays you, the gig is probably up.


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[Assistant] What you're saying is, if you saw it on topo lines on your approach, you're coming in on the same topo line they are, so that this straight uphill or straight downhill is a wind that's perpendicular to your approach angle, so it doesn't really matter. Exactly. Yep. Cool. And honestly that, what's that? You need a diagram like that.


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[Assistant] Bad advice folks, Corey Jacobs, he told you to come in at the same elevation as the Elk and then whether it's an uphill thermal or a downhill thermal, you've still got options. Man, you're just good.


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[Assistant] Well, I think a transition from here, from wind and thermals to this question on scent control.


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[Assistant] Uhm, I might be wrong, but I think a lot of this probably comes from the experience that maybe whitetail hunters have.


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[Assistant] And then also I see scent control products used way more with whitetail hunters than I do with western hunters. Maybe I'm wrong in that, but that's just my own personal experience. And so I, I often give a pretty


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[Assistant] Uh, I don't use any, because my theory always has been that if an elk, if I get an elk downwind of my scent corridor,


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[Assistant] I can't change clothes every day. We're doing...


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[Assistant] Six, eight, ten miles a day in September when it's hot, you're sweating.


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[Assistant] And there's just no way around that. There's no scent control product that is going to help an active, you know, seek and find.


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[Assistant] Creating that much of, you know.


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[Assistant] So, that kind of segwayed into a whole list of other questions related to


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[Assistant] Gear and equipment. And to protect the innocent.


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[Assistant] I think that the flip side of that answer or that question could be, if you see it in your pack or my pack, you can pretty much bet that it's not a gimmick. How's that? Is that a better way to say that?


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[Assistant] Because it probably works for them, say, in a whitetail situation. They don't view it as a gadget or a gimmick. But it's more of a, a, uh,


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[Assistant] What i will say are truly gimmicks that cause people to think well, and I went through this phase, I tell people I went through the gadget gizmo phase when I was, I thought if I bought one of these, I'm going to find an out tomorrow. And if I bought two, I'll probably find four out tomorrow.


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[Assistant] Do anything other than put some pocket, some money in the pocket of a pretty slick sales guy for suckers like me.


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[Assistant] Have been doing this a long time, as have quite a few people. And if you look at the investments that we have made before we got into this as media producers, we were still making big investments in our


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[Assistant] Our gear, whether it's our bow and our rifle, our optics, our backpacks, our boots, our clothing, whatever. But I would say that none of the investments I've made in that stuff


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[Assistant] The things that you see me using or you using, they do help.


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[Assistant] And some people have kind of looked at me funny when I...


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[Assistant] You know, do a Q&A session or I do a seminar when I say that. But if, if we agree that I don't know what the number would be, someone say that


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[Assistant] It's not because that group that killed the 80% or 90%.


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[Assistant] But if you unwrapped the gear layer,


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[Assistant] You would see that they are in the top 10 or 20% when it comes to knowledge and experience that they've gained by spending every possible day out in the hills that they can because they know every day whether success or failure is still progress in building their out knowledge.


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[Assistant] We all have our own budget constraints, whether it's financial budgets or time budgets. As you're allocating that,


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[Assistant] Always allocate first to the opportunities, whether it's the time and the money, to go out and get the tags and get the seasons that you can go and do this. And then upgrade your gear.


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[Assistant] Absolutely. No, they're going to give you the, the failures. It's going to, yeah, I can't, it's really hard to explain.


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[Assistant] How valuable it's been for me to have to haunt places I've never went before.


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[Assistant] How valuable it's been to have only five days to go there, regardless of the weather condition, regardless of the hunting pressure, uhm, going and doing it.


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[Assistant] And maybe outside of your perfect, oh today's the day, I'll go today because everything's perfect.


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[Assistant] Yeah, so if you send us gear, specific gear questions, uhm,


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[Assistant] They, they probably won't get brought up on the podcast if you or I think it's trying to replace.


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[Assistant] Is this geared towards, hey, I'm struggling so if I buy something maybe my struggles will be less versus the person who's asking a question that they've really thought about this, they've had some experiences that they're just seeking


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[Assistant] Other people's experiences and perspectives. So the questions that get asked here are used for the content of the podcast.


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[Assistant] I, a lot of times when I'm, I have that archer engine in my backyard,


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[Assistant] To, to make sure, okay, my form is good, I'm, I'm hitting where I want, my groups are tight. But then, when the wind's blowing, I'll go out there and I'll put that quiver on there, because a quiver full of arrows catches way more wind than a bare bow, and I'll force myself to shoot.


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[Assistant] In these really windy conditions, because I've had plenty of shots out there in the real world where the wind wasn't still. And I don't know, do you spend time?


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[Assistant] My crew, they would probably be even more descriptive in their observations of how I cannot, I mean, I can handle it.


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[Assistant] I have way less focus on did my deer perform and way more focus on how am I going to perform.


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[Assistant] And I think that ownership thing comes back to, I'm going to invest in myself because that's where the buck stops or whatever you want to say. And everything else is ancillary to


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[Assistant] Investing in tangible items versus investing in yourself. Deep Thoughts by Randy and Corey.


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[Assistant] Been totally completely solved. Everybody knows for sure that, no, if Newburger's talking about it.


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[Assistant] 2019 highlights, we'll call it that. That's what they posted out at the Elk Foundation.


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[Assistant] They permanently protected over 25,000 acres of elk habitat in 12 different states.


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[Assistant] And by permanent protection, that's usually through conservation easements and such. Then they enhanced wildlife habitat on 366,000 acres across 23 states.


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[Assistant] They opened new or improved open new public access.


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[Assistant] To just under 60,000 acres in nine different states. That's pretty serious stuff.


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[Assistant] Yeah, it is, and this year they ended with 234,000 wonderful members that support them.


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[Assistant] Over 12,000 volunteers, which, if you are a volunteer for RMEF, thank you. If you want to be one, go to rmef.org and they will tell you how you can help them.


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[Assistant] And then there's always the great donors and companies that support them. It's quite a mix that's required.


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[Assistant] Yeah. Are you going to be at Total Archery Challenge Elk Camp in Park City?


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[Assistant] Uhm, you, you want me to answer that or is that question directed towards your wonderful wife? I'm just hoping she doesn't listen to this episode.


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[Assistant] Uh, it is a cool event, and if you like to shoot, get signed up as soon as possible. Because last year, I think the shooting, the 3D Ranger, the course, sold out the first day.


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[Assistant] The task falls on you to come up with the question list for next week, Corey. Okay.


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[Assistant] I'm only proficient when I'm going full bore.


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[Assistant] I know soft calling with cow calls, that's, that's different. I can modulate, but with bugling I have a really hard time.


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[Assistant] Welcome to the Elk Talk Podcast with Randy Newberg and Corey Jacobson presented by the Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation.


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[Assistant] The Elk Talk Podcast is brought to you by the Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation, ensuring the future of elk, other wildlife, their habitat, and our hunting heritage. To become a member, go to rmef.org.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It's also brought to you by Gerber, uh, go to gerbergear.com and learn about the knives, the vital, the big game vital, the gauge of premium, all the things that we use when we're out in the woods and not just knives but also some really cool multi tools that they have.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And sign up for the Insider. The Insider is changing how haunts and hunting information are found. No doubt about that. Use promo code ALKTOCK and when you do, when you sign up for the Insider, you're going to get $50 of store credit. Mad money in their gear shop.


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[Assistant] Uh, I guess the question is, how deep into Montana do we want to get? Because I think it's the most complicated of all the western states. I don't know, maybe I'm wrong in that.


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[Assistant] You're, you're really deciding one of three things. Do I want the elk combo license, which means elk plus fishing and upland bird? Do I want the deer combo, which is deer plus fishing and upland bird?


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[Assistant] Or do I want the big game combo, which is elk and deer combined, plus fishing and a blamber.


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[Assistant] Here we go, round two of confusion. Coming right up. So what I tell people, it's kind of like an obstacle course Montana has laid out here.


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[Assistant] You have to clear the first obstacle, which is to draw one of these general permits that we've just been talking about, or general tags. The alt combo, or the big game combo that has an alt license with it. You have to clear that obstacle.


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[Assistant] Correct, your limited entry permit application is considered null and void if you don't clear that first hurdle which is getting a general outtake. Yep.


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[Assistant] Yeaah. For the general tag you're trying to get to clear the first obstacle, those are on preference points. He or she with the most points gets the tag.


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[Assistant] Imagine that your general tag now has been validated to hunt also in other places that


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[Assistant] I'm like, you gotta be kidding me, I can go, I think the only month I can't hunt something in Montana is July.


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[Assistant] Yeah, because if something does come up and you can't make it, uh, Montana gives you 80% of your money back if you request the refund by August 1st.


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[Assistant] And those, those life- Generous of them. Yeaah, they get any kinder, they'll die of enlargement of the heart there.


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[Assistant] And all those licenses that get turned back over the summer, they usually go on sale sometime in early August. And you really want to be Johnny on the spot when that happens because they get snapped up real quickly. Yep.


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[Assistant] Yeah, and the beauty of Montana...


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[Assistant] Six weeks of archery hunting, starting the first Saturday in September, followed by a week reprieve for the elk.


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[Assistant] I mean, we're hunting elk. An elk in Montana to survive has to really be good at navigating. And know where the sanctuaries are.


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[Assistant] I shouldn't say how many inches. It has a brow tine in the lower half of the main beam of a certain length. And some people...


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[Assistant] Once you can get them, get out to that level.


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[Assistant] But just be aware when you, when you come to Montana, there we have more than our shared regulations. Our trespass laws are very, uh, firm that it's strictly on the responsibility on the shoulders of the hunter.


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[Assistant] So, the, I tell people if you're an archery hunter, Montana should rank pretty high on your list for elk hunting. If you're primarily a rifle hunter,


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[Assistant] By the time weather and hunting pressure come and start pushing them down, a lot of times they'll head to the lower country, which is primarily private. Montana's, the state of Montana is two thirds private, one third public.


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[Assistant] So by the time rifle season comes along, a lot of those elk are on their way to the private grounds and it's access is just going to be more of a challenge. So, but in archery season?


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[Assistant] Just know that there are some areas, Montana still has some areas in central Montana, north of Bozeman, Great Falls, Helena.


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[Assistant] Well, Montana's, uh, bull elk harvest usually ranges between, it depends on the year and how good the hunting conditions are. The number of bulls taken is usually somewhere, oh,


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[Assistant] Under 15,000, but usually over 12,000. It bounces in that range usually. And, uh,


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[Assistant] More, we have about 50% of the bulls in Montana are 6 point or better.


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[Assistant] This surprises a lot of people that in the last 10 years, Montana has entered 68 typical Goon and Crockett.


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[Assistant] Everybody's got to do their part and, uh, we'll look back at the spring of 2020 as the, kind of a weird time in our lives.


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[Assistant] Well, I do, I'm one of those lucky guys who gets to hunt a lot. Uhm, so I'm thankful that Montana is kind of my fallback where, okay, I'm here this period, I'm here that period, and because of how Montana's seasons are and how liberal they are, I can always find some blocks of time to go out and chase them here in Montana. Oh, and I don't want to forget, if you come to Montana, have a wolf tag in your pocket.


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[Assistant] All elk. All the time. Only elk. Only elk. Well, it's us having conversations, so we usually go down


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[Assistant] And you look at it like, oh, that's a target rich environment. But if you're trying to single one out a solo target, there is much easier to go into than a big group.


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[Assistant] And the podcast is also brought to you by OnX Maps and with OnX Maps you can know where you stand with the most accurate hunting GPS tech on the market with land ownership maps that work offline.


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[Assistant] We're also proud to partner with Sitka Gear and if you go to SitkaGear.com you'll see their full line of clothing and their tagline is turning clothing into gear and they are doing that through advanced technology that allows you to stay in the field longer, hunt harder and stay safer.


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[Assistant] Well, it's, uh, it's that time of year when mornings and afternoons kind of all run together, so. Yeah, well, and...


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[Assistant] Just off our website so folks can go to the website at elktalkpodcast.com and just in the contact form send us their questions and every once in a while we get a chance to read through them and have a day like today where we can just sit down and answer some of them.


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[Assistant] He's not just looking at spending a thousand dollars on license and tag then, he's making a plan with a thousand dollars a year that would include future trips as well.


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[Assistant] You can go every year, you can get a tag there, what, licensing tags, it's under $700, right?


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[Assistant] Uh, the season length, you know, in Idaho, we've got a four week season basically for Archery and then it's about a three week season. October 15th through November 3rd is the average and it changes, you know, every unit and zone has a little bit different seasons and there's some,


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[Assistant] Those are, at least for rifle, those are considerations. But I think, you know, for Idaho, we have, I wouldn't say quality, but we have quality opportunity. And that's for both archery and the rifle seasons. Similar to Colorado. You know, a lot of opportunity in Colorado.


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[Assistant] I think Montana falls into that as well with the...


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[Assistant] Cause if you're going to hunt Idaho for sure, you have to buy the license to apply for the limited hunt in Idaho. And if you already know you're going to be hunting in Idaho that fall, buy the license early and apply for a limited tag. It's not that much more just to apply and you already have the license.


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[Assistant] And New Mexico, you might not, they don't have points either. So you might not draw New Mexico in 15 straight years of applying, but you might draw it three years in a row. And then Wyoming, you know, I think Wyoming is that middle tier state that you can draw a good hunt with three to six or seven points.


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[Assistant] Uhm, but you can get a good quality hunt for not much more than what you spend on the general. Uh, and then Arizona is, you know, that's kind of the long term. That's one that you're going for to hopefully find a big bull.


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[Assistant] Getting experienced along the way with hunting these other States every year.


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[Assistant] Yeah, that's what, $885 I think for just the Elk license in Montana. Yeah. And that's, if people ask you, what's it cost to hunt out of state? I just, I round it to about $750 plan on for license and tag.


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[Assistant] So if you plan on that $750 that'll get you probably within $100 either way in most of the states that you'd want to look at.


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[Assistant] And then, and honestly, that's, those are going to be your biggest expenses. So, you know, Jay's coming out with his wife and they're not counting that into their expense. But beyond that, really all you have is fuel and groceries and if you needed any gear, but you know, that's, yeah, gear is, uh,


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[Assistant] I don't know. I think people get wrapped up on gear and they think they need to save up $3,000 to get boots and backpack and a new bow and all these different things. But the reality is if you're hunting white tail, you're already a hunter. You've got everything you need. Yeah. There's some things that would make you more comfortable, but.


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[Assistant] There you have everything you need already. So just throwing that out, you know, you're probably looking, I would say you could get.


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[Assistant] Vacuum sealed package in the thing of boiling water for five or eight minutes and it warmed up and you take it out and eat it. It was just like having an uncooked meal.


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[Assistant] And I think, you know, when you look at it and break it down, we can, we can fill our...


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[Assistant] I was going to say our backpacks. We can fill the truck bed with gadgets and gear.


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[Assistant] That we really don't need. Yeah, they make it comfortable. They make it more comfortable. They might contribute, uh, in different ways, but when you break down, really, you need some clothing.


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[Assistant] Uh, you need a backpack, you need some boots, and you need a weapon. And then of course your tent or sleeping bag and that, but like you said, most people, if you even


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[Assistant] Uhm, you know, boots and a backpack and again, there's always money that can be spent to make things more comfortable and more efficient, but just to be able to go, don't get wrapped up in, I've got to have the latest, greatest, I've got to, you know, this guy sent me his checklist and he's got 70 items on it and I've got to get every one of them.


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[Assistant] I'm really the only thing you need you know water bottle carry water in and you know from there i think you know some kind of water purification you mentioned on x having some kind of navigation.


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[Assistant] Uhm, but beyond that, I mean, we're talking felt calls, wind checker.


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[Assistant] Totally, yeaah, and that's where I was going with that. You'll be able to accumulate gear if you go, you know, like Jay mentioned, he's planning on going every year. You can spend a limited amount of your budget


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Success rates that come from gear, but just to get you out there and to have a chance of being successful. No, you don't, you don't need to spend much on anything that you don't already have.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] My, I remember getting my first set of Sit Kageer in 2006 and


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, recognize the value of, of gear. We've been able to add a little here and there and...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It's, uh, you know, I, I still people say, you know, well, you guys have all this fancy high tech gear and everything and I still, I'm just fine in my plaid.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Flannel and my wool pants and old pair of boots that I've had for logging for the last 15 years and yeaah, yeaah, you can.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So don't, don't ever let gear be the limiting factor to go on an elk hunt. That should be the last, last concern I think.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Nope, not at all. So saving money, I mean, that's honestly, we talked, if you were just going to go, so I guess just looking shoestring budget here, if you've got all those basics that we talked about, uh, and you don't need to spend anything on that.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Really it comes down to gas groceries in your license and tag. And so if we're looking, say,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Freeze dried it, freeze it, you know, whatever you do. I mean, you realistically can go on an elk hunt for under a thousand dollars.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, so I guess maybe we should, uh, this, this podcast should have two titles. This episode made the shoestring budget and then, uh, this is the year to go elk hunting. So make 2020 the year you go and don't make any more excuses. No, no reasons to hold back.


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[Assistant] Plan your vacation now and start budgeting and go hunting this 2020, fall of 2020.


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[Assistant] I don't think so. You start now, you have 10 months, that's a hundred dollars a month. That's, I mean, I think most of us could go out and find a job shoveling snow or raking leaves or doing something to make a hundred dollars in a month just on a Saturday afternoon. Yeah.


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[Assistant] Yeaah, I never, I never go elk hunting without coals.


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[Assistant] I think to elaborate on that, you know, September obviously is a time we think of that's when you need calls. And we get a lot of questions, you know, just either through the podcast or through Elk 101. I know you get a lot of them as well, but is it worth carrying an elk call in rifle season, which now we're talking usually October, November.


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[Assistant] And yes, absolutely. So case in point, uh, this year,


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[Assistant] Early September was great calling. By the last week or so of September here in Idaho, the elk weren't talking much. I mean, this is very generalized because just in the area we were hunting, they were very, uh, non-vocal. And I think a lot of it had to do with, uh,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So, uh, a week later, uh, I wanna say it was the 20th, I don't remember what day exactly of the week the season opened, but it was about a week later I took my oldest son out.


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[Assistant] And we literally stopped along the road and bugled and the bull answered up on top of the mountain.


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[Assistant] And we were able to drive part way up the mountain and then unload the bikes and get in on them. But as we were going in there, uh, we got off, we actually bumped some elk in the road and so we got off the bikes and walked up to the point and an elk bugled down over the hill.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And we ended up calling and probably had...


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[Assistant] That's what I learned this year hunting Montana in November. That's, that's 99% of the battle is just finding the elk.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] If you have a bugle to do it with, that makes rifle hunting a whole lot easier. So I wouldn't go around bugling from every ridge and, you know, just.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Obviously keep in mind you're hunting in the season where there's a lot more people in the carry rifles and you don't want to attract their attention if you're in a place that looks pretty okay and.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You know, there's elk in there. I would certainly suggest throwing out a location bugle and trying to get a response.


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[Assistant] Anybody that watched our, our day by day series, they saw me, I bugled just about every day, even though, you know it.


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[Assistant] Yeah, you know, it was usually one bugle, just we get up to this phenomenal looking ridge and knew that it would reach a long ways. And by chance, you know, there might be one of those really dumb bulls like the ones Randy shoots that still bugles in November.


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[Assistant] I think there's always a chance for a vocal animal and if you can just elicit a response out of them, that's 90% of the battle in rifle hunting is just finding the elk.


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[Assistant] Especially if you're hunting heavy timbered stuff and you can't glass or your glassing is very limited. A bugle at least tells you, hey, there's an elk there and from there it's, you know, the hunts, the hunts on.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, chance of hearing elk bugle just because they haven't been pressured. Once they start hearing those gunshots go off, that's what kind of sends them into running and wises them up pretty quickly. But I'd say all the way through October, if you're hunting the first couple of days of a rifle season, I think you have a chance of hearing bugles.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, I would almost say it's better to have that week or two week period between archery ending and that first rifle season starting. The elk settle down, there aren't as many people in the woods and I would think you'd have as good of a chance of getting one to bugle on October 12th.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] On opening day of that season in a lot of places as you would, you know, the last week of archery season.


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[Assistant] Pretty substantial discount. Just use promo code ElkTalk and save on Elk calls and use them in October and November.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Two seasons, we've shot three elk during rifle season with a rifle and all three of those elk were bugling and bugling fairly aggressively anywhere from October 15th through October 28th. In fact, going back two years before that.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That what are or what rifle season creates is a lot of pressure in a lot of areas and it ends up concentrating the elk in those places where they're more safe. And when you get those elk coming in there, you know, bulls got his six cows and other bulls got his 12 cows. They come in there. The cows are wanting to mix. I mean, they don't, it's not like they want to stay in their separate little herds.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But the bowls want them separated and so those bowls a lot of times get very vocal and very agitated trying to keep their


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Cows away from another bull and it's not uncommon at all to have rifle season actually generate some of that vocal behavior from the elk.


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[Assistant] This isn't scouting, this isn't picking a unit, this is actually where we're in the unit.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Portion, well probably the entire pre-rut period, that whole latter half of August into the first four or five days of September, the need is on feed and water. And if you're hunting an area, any of the states that get hot,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, so finding the water sources is, is going to be key. You get into a place like Montana, Idaho, Wyoming, a lot of times there's plenty of water everywhere. And so that doesn't really concentrate the elk, especially on a year where they've had a wet spring or more of a mild summer.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, so I guess just having an understanding, you know, the nice thing about that.


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[Assistant] Uh, it's probably the easiest time to pattern an elk, I think, during that because they really aren't changing too much. A lot of times that's about the time the bulls, especially the bigger bulls, start leaving the bachelor herds and they go to what I call their, you know, their staging grounds, areas where they wait for two or three weeks just


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] They're by themselves, they're getting irritable, they don't want company, but they're not ready to go hang out with the cows yet either.


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[Assistant] Uh, and really what I'm looking for is just a, a massive amount of rubs. And if you get into an area where there's a rub here and 50 yards up the trail, there's another rub here. And you know, a hundred yards down on the hillside, there's another rub. That's, that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking every tree within.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I've put some weight in it before with Rocky Mountain Elk, but never as much as what we were able to with Roosevelt's, is looking for rubs. And it's not the, it's not the pre-rut rubs now, it's the rut rubs, but those bulls will travel, and Rocky Mountains travel too, looking for cows.


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[Assistant] The Roosevelts are very patternable in their travels and it's almost straight line. So we'd get on a mountain and there'd be a road that would, you know.


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[Assistant] Uh, it definitely opened my eyes to the differences in Roosevelt and Rockies in their habits and just how patternable their rub, it's almost like a whitetail scrape line. These rub lines are the Roosevelts and you know, if you find a rub along a road,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Absolutely. No, and that's, you know, I think being remote brings benefits. I think you're going to find less pressured elk, generally speaking, the farther back you get.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, because they're not pressured as much, and so if you are looking for bugles, the more remote you get, the better chance that a bull is going to bugle. Whereas, you know, if you're hunting close to the front country, if you're hunting off of a road, uhm, they're listening to ATVs go by, they're listening to all that, and they just might lay there and not bugle.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And if you're trying to get an elk to bugle, that's, that's not a good problem. So.


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[Assistant] I never walk away from the truck without bugling because I don't want to get four miles back in there and realize there was a bull bugling a hundred yards from the truck. You know, I start my bugling the second we leave.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I think once they go into that sanctuary mode, you know, during your,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Your prime time of post-return late season.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Two days and didn't see an elk and then the first day that they went and teamed up with Randy, Randy had them on elk immediately and so I think there is a, there's definitely a skill in knowing where to find elk during different times of the year and it's not at all the same from season to season.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] No, it was, it was every day that we, I mean, we shot elk every day that we were in the area you were hunting. So, that's, that's not luck.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And I think I approach it kind of as a mix of knowing the elk are going to be away from the crowds.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, so I think there are advantages there that you definitely need to take advantage of.


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[Assistant] Uh, you know, the hard part about only hunting two days at a time is sometimes it takes two days just to find the owl.


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[Assistant] Uh, with that being said, uhm, I think having that experience year after year and learning it, you know, is vital. If you're brand new to an area and you're going in there and just weekend hunting,


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[Assistant] It's going to take you a couple years probably to kind of learn it and, and understand it. I would, if it was me and I had two days in a row to hunt, I would be as mobile as possible. I would hunt four different areas, Saturday morning, Saturday night, Sunday morning, Sunday night. If that was your time to hunt, I would be in four different areas unless I found elk.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, I think that's a lot of times people get locked in. They go and they set up camp.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And they lay out their spread and they set up their wall tent and they put their stove in there and they're caught and they move everything in late Friday night and then they hunt Saturday and Sunday and they get back and take down camp Sunday afternoon and head back home and they hunted that one drainage where they set up camp because they had seen elk there last year or


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] For whatever reason and they didn't see anything and they go the next weekend, they go back to the same place and you know, leave camp set up or whatever. But I would say if you have two days in a row to hunt, be mobile. Don't ever get locked. In fact, I would hunt three different areas in a morning.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] If I, if I could, and if I had to just trying to find the fresh sign and get on elk because you just don't have that luxury of.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Are, you know, high likelihood I'm going to hear a bugle or see an elk that are within a mile of a road.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Say again, I don't even know time frame wise cause it gets dark so early right now, but say it's getting light at, you know, 630.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I'm going to be on that ridge at 6.30 bugling. And if I don't have anything, I'm going to be back at the truck by seven and up to the next spot at 7.30 and you know, up there bugling. And by nine in the morning, I'm going to have hit three different spots and hopefully at least seen sign or heard a bugle and be hunting at that point.


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[Assistant] Because you just can't spend all day hiking in a, in a barren wasteland of elk and expect to have success in a two day hunt.


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[Assistant] Uh, in September, I think that you have a chance of, you know, if it's late season, you're out hiking ridges, looking for tracks, you know, don't just sit on an open hillside and think.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You know, my only chance is to glass them across on that hillside and have to sit here all day and hope they come out cause, you know, they might not. Yeah.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And one other topic that I think for my own personal selfish interest, I think we need to get Bo on here. Llamaman?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Lama man bow. Okay. I, I just, it's, my, my wheels are turning. Yeah.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I just, you know, there's so many applications and I just, the more I think about it, I think first off my kids want a pet.


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[Assistant] We could use some shed hunting and go back in and haul all of our gear back in shed hunting into these remote areas we go to and then we try to figure out how to get elk antlers out of there. Now we hike our camp back in there, the llamas pack the antlers back out.


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[Assistant] And then, you know, just for hunting season alone, there was benefits. I'm almost a point of justifying being interested in them.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Makes it to us and then comes full circle hopefully at some point and makes it back in the...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I was going to say it makes it back in the form of a made up answer, so.


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[Assistant] Uhm, different projects the Elk Foundation does, but one of the things that caught my eye in the latest issue of the Bugle Magazine, which you receive as a member of the Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation, is research projects that they do, and this one was on researching


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, pregnancy rates in cows and how they can use satellite imagery from NASA to


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] member dollars going out to learn about elk and elk habitat and all that but the really cool thing that caught my eye in it was


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, the Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation allocated more than one million dollars in funding to further elk-related scientific research in 2019. Those funds leveraged an additional 6.3 million in funding from other partners.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] They're taking that money and not just putting that $35 back on the ground. They're taking it and turning it into $200 and then putting it back on the ground.


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[Assistant] We've pushed it for a long time and I'll continue to push it for the rest of my life because our $35 collectively banded together has done so much for so long and will continue to do important things that will keep us in the field and keep elk in the field.


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[Assistant] Make sure that that's this, this opportunity and privilege that we love is maintained as long as we can possibly maintain it.


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[Assistant] Hoping to let the dust settle and kind of see where we end up. The opportunities, I don't see opportunities like, oh, so many different opportunities, but just becoming more aware of so many cool places to try to go hunting and then all of our normal stuff that we like to do.


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[Assistant] Welcome to the Elk Talk Podcast with Randy Newberg and Corey Jacobson presented by the Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation.


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[Assistant] Well folks, the first time that we tried this, Cory, we ended up with a bad audio file.


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[Assistant] We've been busy requiring material to talk about, right? That's right.


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[Assistant] The first one was a mid-season recap, but when that audio file went south, it's taken us so long to get together again. I guess it's almost a season recap now instead of mid-season.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And I'm suffering from the world's worst sinus infection right now, so it sounds like I have.


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[Assistant] Well, you just talked about our Montana excursion together. Do you want to start with that or end with that? Oh boy.


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[Assistant] We better end with that. Okay, let's start. Because you've got your YouTube series Destination Elk that's just started rolling out, right?


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[Assistant] I, I was a delinquent in getting out in the Elkwoods cause I was busy helping other friends who had tags. I was in Nevada on a pronghorn and deer hunt as in Arizona on a pronghorn hunt. And while I was doing that,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Our crew, Michael, uh, Parente, he'd lucked out and drew one of the Wyoming random tags in a pretty darn good unit.


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[Assistant] And, uh, I guess before I continue past that point, I'm trying to figure out the sanity or insanity of applying my crew for tags in the same units I apply for.


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[Assistant] You're lowering your own draw odds. Yeah, I pay the freight, I pay for their licenses, their permits, everything. And Marcus and Michael and I, we all applied for this same unit. Well, Michael gets one of the three random tags.


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[Assistant] It's out on our YouTube channel. He goes down there and on the third day, I think it was, he shot a nice six point.


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[Assistant] Michael, this is his first time he's ever had a limited entry tag. He's only been out hunting a couple of years now and the first day he air balls a very nice ball. And Michael is by far,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The archer in our office. You put him out on a range at 100 yards, he'll put him in there so tight.


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[Assistant] And he missed. I think for him, it was just a, an awakening of how exciting it is when a bull elk is standing there screaming at you.


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[Assistant] Grown men end up doing things they could never imagine themselves doing.


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[Assistant] That's out on our YouTube channel. Uhm, and then I went in with the Gerber guys, uh, the president, Andrew Gritsbaugh, and one of the product is development guys, uh, Carson Coivisto.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] We went into, well, I told them, if this is the week that fits your calendar,


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[Assistant] And I'm still bullheaded enough to not believe that whole full moon thing, but we went out


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[Assistant] You know how it is. Just when you think it's there, it's in your grasp.


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[Assistant] So that was, uh, that was ad hunt here in Montana.


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[Assistant] Then I, I sent the crew down to film my buddy Scott Jones down in Nevada.


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[Assistant] But, you know, camera angles are often different than the angle the shooter has or whatever. Uh, and so...


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[Assistant] They called in all these bulls in Nevada, had a close encounter every day and Scott went home with his tag in his pocket. Wow. If you want to see a lot of really nice bulls and some good bugling activity, that one's out there on our YouTube channel and uh, it's,


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[Assistant] I just have a ton of respect for Scott Jones and the way he does things and, you know, it's interesting when you read comments.


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[Assistant] Or on social media, say like YouTube, where people are allowed to comment of


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[Assistant] How many people, there's, I'd say it's split right down the middle on Scott's hunt. How many admired that he was only going to take the shot that he was absolutely comfortable with. And then how many of them gave the comment of, what a knucklehead. I'd have been shooting 20 airs sooner, blah, blah, blah. And so.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Okay, so that kind of got us through our September as far as elk hunting. I ended up the last, I think it was September 22nd, I ended up heading to British Columbia.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] For mountain caribou and moose. And those were, wow.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Are you saying that on your website there's motorcycles, slightly used motorcycles for sale?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, well, uh, while I was in British Columbia, my employees are still on the probationary period after what happened.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] When I left on September 22nd, I told them...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Between the three of you, Michael, Dan, and Dale, you guys have to go and hunt elk every morning and film it. Rotate, you know, one guy hunting, one guy filming, blah blah blah. I get back from- Man.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And you're getting paid for this, right? So I get back to Montana on October 6th or 7th.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, I'm like, guys, did you think I was kidding when I said your job description means you go and hunt elk every day in September? So.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] What bailed us out from a content standpoint at that time is my buddy Bo Beatty, The Llama Man.


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[Assistant] He and I were talking last January when the Wyoming draw deadline came.


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[Assistant] He said he had six points. I said, oh, I'd really like to, uh, help you get this tag. I think you might drop because there's some trends going on here that this could be the year you might drop. Sure enough, he drew it and.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And then from there, from their spike camp, they still shot the bull another four and a half miles from there, so.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I'm, I'm just getting too old where there's no way what's at a total of 14 miles. There's no way I'm packing elk out 14 miles. Yeah.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] With a big string of llamas, Bo got it done. So.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, well, I'm sure my uncle Mike wishes the camera wasn't recording on our next trip when we went to New Mexico.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] We went down there, and so you gotta understand my family. My mom has six brothers, and they love to give each other the rhubarb all the time.


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[Assistant] You know, of all the people in the family, he says, if you're gonna have someone at the trigger, at the moment of truth, I'm the guy you want.


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[Assistant] Alright, you know Mike, uh, there's the old saying you should brag about your shooting after the hunt.


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[Assistant] So we go out there Friday morning, relocate that bowl.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Leave him. The wind starts howling. I'm like, ah, let's go look around. We go look around, don't find anything. Go back out there the night before season opens. So later that evening, find him again. I'm thinking this never happens. There's a bull of this size never stays a half mile from the trailhead, slightly uphill. Every day you go and look for him. There's no way he's going to be there tomorrow morning.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The sun is all messed up. I can't see anything. So I skirt around a little bit more to the, to the east. So the sun would be at my back and there is that ball a hundred yards away from where we left him the night before. Man. Yeah.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That, this episode is getting, it's starting to air on our YouTube channel right now, so.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] We wheel up there, we sneak and get set up. I range it 320 yards and before we got up to the rock where Mike was going to shoot from.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But we get up there, Mike gets all set up, finally the bull, the bull is bedded the whole time, finally the bull hears us whispering and he stands up, he's looking our direction but he's broadside, trying to look into the sun to see what's going on.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And I'm thinking, are you going to shoot Mike? Are you going to wait for this bull to die of old age? Are you going to shoot him? Finally he shoots. And it, it is so, uh, I, I, I don't know what happened, but suffice to say,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He missed right over his back and the bull didn't even flinch. The bull just looks back at the hillside where the dirt flew up. Like, what was that?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And now I'm starting to get a little more excited. I'm like, Mike, shoot him!


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Well, there's a bunch of grass in front of us where we lay down.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah. He redeemed himself the next night. We'd seen some bulls later that the first day and we couldn't get to them. So the next afternoon we snuck over there about a 30 mile an hour wind and we got set up straight down wind from this one bull.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And Mike drilled him. Right. How he hit that ball.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] At 200, little over 200 yards, absolutely perfect, but he shot over the back of that big one.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Alright, tell me again, what happened? You guys separated from us, so is there a story here that I don't know about?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You guys went and packed them out with llamas while me and Matt, we stayed and broke down camp while you guys went and did the hard work.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Well, if it's, if it was any consolation when we got back that night.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You heard my story that while Donnie was shooting his elk, I was shooting mine.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But a little bit of a side story is that bull was bugling on what day was it? November 8th, I believe.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The, the, the side story even further is Matt Seidel from OnX Maps the day before had shot a bull way back in there and


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So for the listener, you and Donnie were going one way and we were always going a different way. So Matt and Marcus, my camera guy, say, well you need to come with because if we see some more elk, you're going to want to shoot one.


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[Assistant] Yeah, you guys are pretty optimistic. So we hike way back in there over the other side of the divide where Matt's elk is hanging in the trees and about noon.


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[Assistant] Matt says, hey, there's a cow elk running out in the opening there. And we watch, it's way far away. Here comes a cow and a calf. Another cow and a calf.


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[Assistant] Two five points and six spikes. All chase in this one cow.


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[Assistant] Well, we watch for a long time and I'm looking through the spotter and I'm like, that bull is bugling. I know it's too far away and too windy for us to hear, but, and he climbs on top of her and he's trying to take care of his business and he's running all the other alcoff and, uh,


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[Assistant] Well, it's not my fault that's when he got into my shooting lane. You know, what am I supposed to do? So.


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[Assistant] Yeah, we had a great hunt down there. Yeah, we, uh, we ended up killing, what, four elk in three days.


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[Assistant] Obviously with only one camera guy, the camera guy wasn't going to stay with Bo, who was just kind of guarding the back door.


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[Assistant] We don't have Bose, uh, shot on camera, but not, not because somebody failed to hit the record button.


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[Assistant] No, that, that hunt was the second week of rifle season. It was what, November 5th through the 5th, 6th and 7th or 6th, 7th and 8th, something like that.


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[Assistant] You know, the elk are going to be back in the nasty spots. You know, they're going to be in bachelor groups and you just having something like llamas really gives you an advantage because where Matt shot his bowl and where I shot mine, there's no way we'd shoot two bowls that far back there.


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[Assistant] Yeah, and we had six llamas with us that day. They easily handled.


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[Assistant] That we, one llama was empty. So we, we had, uh, five llamas with, uh, two elk spread among them and it was pretty easy trucking for them. Yup.


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[Assistant] Well, while we were on that hunt, it was my 55th birthday, and when you get to be 55,


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[Assistant] Well, I would add another piece to our out season, but I didn't ask Marcus to film this. He went out and he said, yeah, I'm going to go shoot an elk tomorrow. He went out and he shot an elk the next day.


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[Assistant] He didn't film it. And then he came back to the office and he said, Hey Dan, I know there's some more bulls if you want to go kill one tomorrow. So Dan went out the next day and he shot a bull there.


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[Assistant] Those guys didn't film it. I didn't give them instruction to film it. So I, I think Mark, well, Marcus's job is safe because he filmed him and his wife. But these other three guys, Dan and Michael and Dale, this was their one mulligan.


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[Assistant] Next September, there better be, September is 30 days long, there better be 30 days of elk hunting footage. No matter where I'm at and what I'm doing, or we will be looking for three new Google.


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[Assistant] Uh, it'll be interesting because 12 years of chemo has created neuropathy in his feet so bad that he really, he can't feel his feet much. So, uh, it's tough sledding for him.


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[Assistant] Hunting is something that's really a highlight in my life and I'm going to go do it. I don't care if I have a new stent. I don't care about this cancer and I don't care that I had a mini stroke at TIA last week. I'm coming. So be there to pick me up at the airport in Casper.


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[Assistant] Well, I apologize to the, to the audience that we've been absent as much as we have. We're gonna start getting back on the regular schedule, uh, sorting through all the comments and ideas that come in from the website.


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[Assistant] Yep. And hopefully this new technology works. If you hear anything funky in this folks, we went out and bought some new remote technology to do this with. So, we'll see.


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[Assistant] We've seen the consequences and we've seen what it's like with the fact that we actually have hunting and trapping seasons where we get Idaho, Montana, we get to do something about it.


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[Assistant] But in Colorado, I have this great suspicion that once those wolves are on the ground, they're not going to have, well, I think, isn't public land trapping already illegal in Colorado?


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[Assistant] Anyhow, thanks for being here folks, sure appreciate it. I'm gonna stop this podcast and the danger here is that this is new software.


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[Assistant] Now once I hit stop, if Cory and I don't know how to do this at the end, this entire conversation could be deleted and you've never heard it. So if you're hearing it, we won.


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[Assistant] Yeah, but before, the one thing, the other, which is interesting is as soon as you identified that other hunters were the biggest risk and variable and we were actually fortunate to see that on day one because it, it changes your entire mindset, you know, and we switched from


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[Assistant] We're going to walk into, you know, a lot of opportunity.


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[Assistant] You work through it. Okay, we gotta go farther. We gotta go harder. We gotta rethink the plan and


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[Assistant] You know, toughening your mind, like becoming conscious with dealing with adversity is part of what makes all of this so special. It's just one of many aspects, but this is not for, you know,


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[Assistant] You know, when you're chasing an elk and you're on something, and you've been strategizing, and we're gonna go over there, we're gonna go around this, and we'll talk about that probably, but,