[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And now you end up on this deployment, the, the fob or the strong point that you're in so small it doesn't even have a name. Just like out in the middle of nowhere. This is a strong point. And you got there, what was the, uh, what was the environment like there?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeaah, I mean this fire fight, going to the book here, uh.


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[Assistant] Sergeant Butler yelled, I'm hit, I'm hit. One of his team leaders, Sergeant Marty Miller ran over to him and swept his hands along Butler's body to look for blood. Miller ran back to our lieutenant to report we could, he couldn't find any. And, you, you just, uhm,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You sprinted out into this riverbed during this firefight going on. And here you are. I'm still wearing my body armor, but I was essentially weaponless. If I'd kept my rifle, it would've only slowed me down. I ran over to where Sergeant Butler lay. He was probably 50 meters total away. It's my leg, he shouted. I can't put any weight on it. Shut up, I yelled. Get on my back now, let's go. Without waiting for him to answer, I grabbed


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I understand after you perform like that in a firefight, your boy's like, oh yeaah, we get it.


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[Assistant] Right. And just, just, I always have to point this stuff out. Cause we have a lot of guys that are in the military that listen to us. And so you're just doing a classic cover move, one element's gonna stay back on the high gr- or on one side of the river to cover as the other, other element's pushing across.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You're talking about how you were in a leadership position, you're just backed off a little bit, you're paying attention to what's going on, instead of you being on your gun and shooting, you're backed off, you're watching, and that's what you need to do in a leadership position. You gotta back off a little bit, you gotta observe what's happening, you gotta make sense of what's happening, and then you gotta make sure that people are doing the right things.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And that, it sounds like that deployment was, I mean the firefights that you talk about in here were a lot. You're getting a lot of firefights.


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[Assistant] So this one here, you went out and did this raid, uhm, and then you get word after you do this raid that there's no aircraft to come and pick you up from the raid and go ahead and walk back. Yeaah.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] ID out in the village and you guys are going to go check it out.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And here we're going to the book. We hiked only about 400 yards to the village. In addition to my weapons team, there were other squads along on patrol, a total of 28 soldiers. My lieutenant, Zachary Lewis, went to the left.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The first and second squads heading to meet with the village elders while the rest of our men went with me around the village to the outside to offer support in case of an attack. Along with my gun team I had, my platoon sergeant and a medic, Sergeant Daniel Bateson,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] With my group. All looked calm. It was just another day in Afghanistan.


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[Assistant] Another normal patrol. We approached an abandoned ANA security post to portable buildings and stopped near the buildings to establish a security perimeter. I called for Fessy to bring the minesweeper. Check this area was the only order I gave.


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[Assistant] Fessy walked up a path used by villagers and scanned all the area around. He went up and back and all was clear. No beeps.


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[Assistant] There was no reason to question anything. Fessy finished his mind-sweeping duties and went up s- and went to set up on the far flank.


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[Assistant] I called Riot up to, to me and asked him where he thought we should put the gun.


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[Assistant] I knew where it should go, but I wanted to let him decide making sure he knew his stuff.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He motioned to exactly where I thought we should put it, a good spot, and I said, alright, go get Neff and bring him up here. That was it. Riot left to go get Neff, and as he did, I set my backpack down. The backpack touching the dirt was all it took. Such a simple act of war. My world erupted.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I saw a flash of flame and heard a huge kaboom. Hot jagged pieces of explosives ripped through me. I cartwheeled backward, end over end, hit the ground, and slammed my face hard against the compacted earth.


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[Assistant] Instantly I felt my left eye starting to swell shut. I smelled burning flesh. My own.


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[Assistant] I tasted dirt and I was wet with sweat and moisture just like I'd walked out of a hot shower.


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[Assistant] Dirt fell everywhere through the air. It rained down and clung to my eyes, nose, and mouth.


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[Assistant] I don't remember rolling over, but I must've because I glanced to the side and saw that my right arm was completely gone.


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[Assistant] I caught a glimpse of my left arm covered in blood and tattered. My arm trembled as if it had a will of its own. I looked down and saw my right leg was also gone. The stump looked like a piece of raw meat.


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[Assistant] The bottom of my left leg was still attached, but held on only by a few strands of skin. I saw all this in a flash, in an instant.


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[Assistant] I felt confusion but no panic. My first thought was of my guys.


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[Assistant] I flopped my remaining arm toward the microphone clipped to my carrier plate and somehow managed to push the button. I hit a bomb, I said. I need help.


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[Assistant] Bateson, my medic, rushes up to me along with Staff Sergeant Keith Hambright, our platoon sergeant.


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[Assistant] Only about 30 seconds had passed since the blast. Immediately they applied tourniquets to hold whatever blood was still inside me.


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[Assistant] I'm not gonna make it, I said. Leave me and go to save my guys. Shut up Sergeant Mills, said Bateson. Let me do my job.


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[Assistant] I ignored Bates and yelled my men's name like roll call. Fessy. Riot. Neff. To see if they were okay. Two were hit.


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[Assistant] Fessy and Riot and other medics were already caring for them. They were bleeding, but nothing was missing. They yelled back that they were gonna be okay. I calmed down.


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[Assistant] More soldiers ran toward me. Sergeant Alex's voice and other medic wondered aloud where to best get IV access.


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[Assistant] There were no pulses to check except for my carotid artery.


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[Assistant] He quickly ripped open my vest, shaved a spot on my chest, and put an IV straight into my sternum.


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[Assistant] It hurt going in and I must have howled because he yelled at me that I was gonna be fine. I yelled back, Doc, shut up, I know. He and I both calmed down.


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[Assistant] Someone stuck a fentanyl pop in my mouth. It's a potent painkiller that releases as the pop dissolves. I downed the first one, spit out the stick, and asked for another. You won't need it, someone said. I was still thinking that I was going to die. I didn't want to show fear. I didn't want to freak out. You never want to show fear around your men.


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[Assistant] Let my family know I dealt with it without crying, I said. Tell them yourself, someone grunted. He was being encouraging, letting me know I wasn't dead yet.


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[Assistant] I tried to see around me. I raised my head wanting to get a visual of Fessy and Riot. Someone shoved my head back down, but I still commanded a voice.


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[Assistant] The other eye was blurry from dirt. I tried to raise my head again. Again I was pushed flat. My eyes were watering now, the dirt turning to mud. Time passed and I didn't know what was happening.


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[Assistant] I mumbled something, but there was no reply. Only the steady whoop whoop whoop of a Black Hawk helicopter touching down nearby.


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[Assistant] Six men surrounded me, hefted me up and carried me over.


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[Assistant] All told, it might have been 10 minutes since the blast until the helicopter arrived.


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[Assistant] Fessy and Riot were first inside the helicopter. Everything was foggy and noisy and I couldn't make out my surroundings clearly.


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[Assistant] My two guys were on seats and I saw blood and bandages jumbled in their direction.


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[Assistant] Fessy had shrapnel in his face. Riot had shrapnel in his face, legs and hands. Their images faded away. I focused on the noise of the rotors.


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[Assistant] We were in the air and the flight medic were taking care of me.


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[Assistant] Riot yelled in pain. I tried to look around. Someone needed to attend to Riot. Where are the medics? One of the medics was talking to the pilots up front. Riot was yelling again. I looked in Fessy's direction and told him to calm down. Fessy nodded.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Riot stopped yelling and I winked at him to let him know he was going to be okay. It was all I could think to do.


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[Assistant] The flight medic was back in view. I could barely see him through the goop in my eyes. He wore a green flight suit and had a big Darth Vader helmet. I tried to speak. He gave me a quizzical look. I yelled as loud as I could, take your helmet off.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He took his helmet off. Give my guys water and tell them they're gonna be okay, I barked. Don't worry, I'll take care of them for you, he said. He was busy with some task on me that I couldn't see. A moment went by and I added, I'm sorry. For what? The medic asked. For making you take your helmet off. He gave me a wry grin. I realized he'd been doing his job all along, doing it well. Both the medic's head.


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[Assistant] My mind went in and out. I was coherent but fuzzy in spots.


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[Assistant] In 15 minutes, the helicopter landed in Kandahar.


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[Assistant] Hospital staff rushed me straight to the operating table. We're gonna put you under now. Came a voice from above me. I'm fine, I said. Leave me alone. The mask came over my face and I tried to push it away. I remember asking one question. Am I ever going to see my baby girl again?


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[Assistant] They must have slapped those things on you quick tourniquets. Oh within 20 seconds or 30 seconds I think.


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[Assistant] I just realized, you know, I always say God bless the machine gunners, but how about a little God bless the doctors and nurses.


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[Assistant] Uhm, meanwhile, back on the home front.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Going to the book, Kelsey received a call at 11 53 a.m. Her time while standing in her parents kitchen in Dallas, Texas, she was making a tuna fish sandwich.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And, and then it's the commander on the phone and she describes, you know, he, he tells her straightforward, you know, the severe injury.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I was all alone in the house, and my actions upset my daughter to the point where she was screaming.


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[Assistant] I could do nothing to soothe her. I couldn't pick her up. I couldn't look at her. My body felt like it was being torn in two.


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[Assistant] I wanted so badly to be able to talk to Travis and let him know I love him and that I thank God that he was still alive.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Then it continues on, Kelsey called my dad in Michigan, but when she tried to tell him what happened, little would come out.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] My dad knew something was wrong and kept repeating, is he alive? Is he alive? Is he alive?


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[Assistant] And then your dad said this until you go through something like that yourself. It's hard to describe the feeling. There's no eating anymore. You don't leave the house. There's a lot of pacing around. You just wait. Whenever the phone rang, we jumped. You look at the phone and you don't know if you want to answer it or not.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It wasn't, obviously it wasn't just you that got hit, uhm.


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[Assistant] To, you know, your family back home gets hit with the shock of all this and also in your squad. Theriot?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Which is the coolest name ever. Because it spells The Riot. And I mentioned him earlier. But yeaah, he got wounded.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, I thought it was interesting, uhm, uh, that one of the guys on the medevac bird, like, wrote a, wrote a Facebook to Kelsey and was explaining, you know, what it was like and, and, uh, yeaah. I mean, here's what he wrote.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] My name is First Sergeant Waite. The other medic, the other flight medic was Staff Sergeant Hockersmith. You belong to a family of warriors. Other wounded soldiers in the aircraft were injured and screaming. But your husband was more worried about, more worried about them than himself.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He described, then he describes like how you were doing the thing and tell him to take his helmet off and, and uh,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You know, here, going back to the book, his face was dirty and there was dust in his eyes, but he never shed a tear. I replay in my mind a moment when he looked at another wounded soldier and winked to reassure him that it would be okay.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] My crew is still on duty in his units area now. We go back to Kandahar on Monday, but we won't go back the same way.


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[Assistant] I'm an E8, but this E6 is the example for myself and others to emulate.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And, and Josh shows up like, you know, you just talked about this and then Josh just said, hey, I'm going to tell it to you straight. Cause you asked, you said to Josh, hey, am I paralyzed? And I'm going to the book here. No man, Josh said, you're not paralyzed. You don't need to lie to me. I whispered, I can take it.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I'm gonna tell you straight. Josh knew. I'd wanna know the truth. You're not paralyzed. But both your arms and legs are gone.


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[Assistant] As when I'd heard the news, I was a quadruple amputee. It was my 25th birthday.


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[Assistant] You talk about the pain, and I think this is something that people don't get, myself included. Uhm.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, the pain was so bad. Part of the pain was the thought of what I'd become. I could hardly picture the new me. Yet the pain was more than emotional. It was a physical pain. It coursed through my body. I felt like I was on fire.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I tried to focus on my breathing and take stock of why my pain was so bad. Even with all the medications flowing through me, it still felt like I was in a red hot vice.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I could hardly take it. I knew Josh would never lie to me, but my arms and legs still felt like they were attached. My hands felt like they were burning, like someone was clamping them inside of an industrial furnace, but my hands weren't there.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The flames were eating away my ligaments, my nerves, my skin, my legs, my phantom legs were clamped in that same fire.


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[Assistant] Bolts of agony surged from limbs that weren't there and registered to a brain that still was. The pain came and went, came and went, came and went.


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[Assistant] Josh started in his seat and leaned, or started in his seat and leaned closer. Travis, you needed me to get the nerfs? Nurse? I didn't say anything. I was itchy and sweating bad. He pressed a buzzer, then, then went out and got a cool cloth and laid it on my forehead. The nurse came in and upped my morphine.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Just before I went under again, everything that I'd always drilled into myself rushed through my mind.


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[Assistant] Never show fear. Never let your guys see you in pain. Don't cry out.


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[Assistant] Even when I'd been lying on the ground right after the blast, I'd felt pain then, but I hadn't showed it.


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[Assistant] When that IV was shoved through my chest, that was chest, that was painful, but I wasn't gonna complain then. You don't let people down, you just don't.


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[Assistant] But this time the pain was so bad, it was still so bad, even with more painkillers in me now. So bad. So bad. So bad. This time, I want to do the unthinkable.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Of course, I was kinda, you know, you're wondering where you get your sense of humor. You're telling your dad what happened and you're like, I stepped on a mine, went flying through the air, I did a 180, it was crazy.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Well Travis, my dad said, the important question is, did you look good doing it?


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[Assistant] She, she, you know, you've been voicing some of these concerns, like about, hey, can I even be a good dad now? Can I, am I going to be a burden? You're kind of telling Josh some of those things. And she told, or he told Kelsey, and here we go back to the book. My brother told me that Travis is nervous to see me because he doesn't know how I will react or if I will continue to love him as my husband.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] These worries seem so trivial to me, because I will love him through sickness and health until death do us part. I did not use those words lightly when we got married.


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[Assistant] I will be by his side everyday for the rest of our lives whether he likes it or not.


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[Assistant] I know his natural reaction will be to push me away because of embarrassment or feelings of letting me down, but I just wish I could constantly reassure him that my love for him is unwavering.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] There's like a level of luck involved when you get married. I don't care who you are. Uhm, you know, like-


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You could easily marry, like, Satan. You know, and I know, I know plenty of guys that have made some really bad, I can't even call them bad decisions, cause just like,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Okay, I understand if you have this great courting thing and all that and you're whatever, that you can make a good decision and that's great. But like a lot of guys in the military, you're young and you're like, you know what, we're getting married. And there's just like a flip of the coin. And you, you got a saint.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So yeaah, so this was crazy. Uh, reading about in the book, you, you're in such horrible, horrible pain. Like, undescribable pain. Is this basically an experimental thing, procedure that they did on you?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And a lot of case studies on me. The ketamine coma is 600 milligrams of ketamine per hour around the clock.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, no, I'll hit some highlights from your hallucination. Cause when you get, when you get done out of the coma, you're in a coma for five days, which is just black nothing, right? There's no nothing, nothing there. Then you go into hallucinations, you got, uhm,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Chasing kids that stole things from Walmart. You got Genghis Khan, that you're out with Genghis Khan. Your SWAT team is coming to get you. You got you and your cousins are riding skateboards in a TV reality show. You got yourself playing hockey in the NHL.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Kramer from Seinfeld stops by. So, so you go through these massive hallucinations. That, that's freaking weird.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Are you the second person that ever had that done? I guess in the nation. That's crazy. I guess. I thought this was great talking about your kind of transition mentally, going back to the book. Back in normal days, I loved the challenge. The quest to succeed in the army had always been a challenge for me. My situation now as a quadruple amputee held out the same sort of dare to succeed.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Sure, if I could have changed things, I wouldn't have been in this situation, but I couldn't change things. Being a quadruple amputee was my new reality.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I could quit for good. I could shut myself off from the world. I could will myself to die. Or I could fight forward and keep on living. Legit.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And man, I started watching, like, I watched a, you know, video of you as you were training, as you were now relearning everything. Look, and I never really understood when people say, oh, you gotta relearn to walk, and you gotta relearn. And I didn't really make sense of it, but it's really clear to see when you watch your progression what that looked like. Like, how...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You're clearly re-learning how to walk. Like I never understood that, but when you watch the videos and the progression that you made, you can see that that's what it looks like when you first stood up. I'm like, oh yeah, it looks like he's learning how to walk. And sure enough, you got better and better and it's pretty amazing.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And you got a visit from a guy named Todd Nicely. And that must have helped out a lot.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So the more capable you got, the more comfortable you got in your new skin.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You eventually went and met your guys when they came home though. That's... Freakin' awesome.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Eventually you're, like you said, you're driving now, you went out and did like mountain biking and skiing and all this other kind of...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Tough as they come. That's what we read today. It's a great book. I read small chunks of it. Uhm, yeaah. You can pick that up anywhere where they sell books. And what about the documentary?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] No, between the book and watching the documentary and you get to see the faces and everything, it's really, uh, it's really cool, it's real powerful. And uhm, what about social media? How's your social media presence, Mr. Popular?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, and it's Twitter Instagram and Facebook you're on all three SSG Travis Mills, that's that's where you can find it Yeah


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You know, you, you, you put the last thing in the book, like the last line in the book.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You say to live in freedom, to go forward, to love your family, to make something out of your life, to never ever give up, to never quit. That's success. And...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] If never giving up and never quitting is the definition of success, then I think you're the most successful person I've ever met in my life, brother.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeaah. Hey man, thanks for coming on. Uhm, of course, thank you for your service.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] To this great nation, not only as a soldier and a leader on the battlefield,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But for your continued service that you're doing today for veterans and also


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] For the, the gift that I think you give everybody that hears about you or comes and contacts you with you in any way and that is...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And every excuse that a person might have as a human being just got destroyed.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And he couldn't at that moment in time.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And when people get into that darkness, they don't see, they can't, they can't see the future. They can't see that things are going to get better. They can't see, you know, for him at that point in time, there's no way it was going to get good. Yeah. You know, so yeah, that's very true. Very true.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You can, you don't have to say the best American-made apparel. You can say it's the best apparel in the world. And it's American-made.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Also, those are also on originmain.com by the way.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] No. You just like- Well, it doesn't matter. Right, right. It doesn't even register a board or not. Yeah, yeah. Execution is happening. It's not like-


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Weird YouTube munchkins that are like saying, I know what Jackal likes.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Watching a video about working out does not replace working out though. No, no, not at all.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Oh, you were gonna get a submission on me? And then you hurt yourself? No, I was checking-


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Somebody asked me, they said, hey, does it really help the podcast to like do the Amazon click through? And I said, absolutely, it really does. And they said, well, like how much? And I said, well, it's basically the way Echo describes it. It's basically the way Echo describes it.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, but beyond just watching what we look like, there's other things that come from the YouTube.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That are not on the podcast. Oh, right. Yeah. Subscribe. Yes, right. Whether it's little augmented videos that you make with your creative, um, spin on the layer. Yeah, there's just straight excerpts. Right. And then there's a deleted scenes.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Also, you can get some Jocko white tea. You can get that on Amazon. It'll make you be able to, um, do amazing feats of strengths with no effort, barely at all.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The yellow jacobite tea, boom, you nailed it. Easy money, one hand. Uh, books, like-


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Echo said, Tough As They Come by Travis Mills. You can get that. You can also get a book called Extreme Ownership that I wrote with my brother Leif Babin. It's about combat leadership. Way of the Warrior Kid. If you want your kid or a kid that you know to be stronger, smarter, healthier,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And therefore, because they're stronger, smarter, and healthier, they're also more confident.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] If you want to do that for a kid, get him a book called Way of the Warrior Kid.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Then you can also get the discipline equals freedom field manual.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It got a little bump the other day. I don't know. I think, uh, like in social media, I put something out and it got a little bump and all of a sudden the delivery dates of people that just ordered it got pushed back. So I don't know.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I don't know specifically like what that means, but I'll tell you this. It means you should order it now. If you want to get it when it comes out, order it. If you want that first edition copy, which is pretty much what you want.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] If you need leadership in your world, which you probably do because that's the way things get done is through leadership and you need help in that department. You can contact our leadership consulting company, Echelon Front. It's me.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It's Leif Babin, JP Dennell, Dave Burke. You can email us at info at echelonfront.com if you want us to come speak or work with your company. That's what you do. And finally, and this is, uh, the muster. We are close to selling it out right now.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, the one that's in San Diego, September 14th and 15th. Leadership tactics, techniques and procedures for business and life. Get better at everything.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Get registered. Do it now before it sells out. It might even be sold out by the time this podcast comes out. But, check it out. See if you can find it. Uhm, see if you can get there. Extreme ownership dot com. And until the muster, if you do need to communicate with us, we're actually cruising.


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[Assistant] All the military members out there that are holding the line, thank you. And to those veterans that stood to watch, especially those that were wounded.


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[Assistant] Thank you for giving us our freedom.


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[Assistant] And to police, law enforcement, firefighters, EMTs and other first responders, thank you for your service. And thank you for keeping us protected from man and from nature here at home.


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[Assistant] And to everyone else out there facing struggles and facing hard times, remember.


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[Assistant] Remember the challenges that Travis Mills faced and still faces. And he faces those incredible challenges every minute of every day.


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[Assistant] That if you never quit and you never give up and you keep moving forward, then nothing can stop you from getting after it.


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[Assistant] Oh nice. We're doing it with Pete. Oh nice. American made.


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[Assistant] With Echo Charles and me, Jocko Willink. Good evening, Echo. Good evening.


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[Assistant] I will say that I could not have asked for a better friend.


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[Assistant] Raw because he admitted to them all, openly and directly and naively, to be honest, in a sort of pointed and heavy handed self critique, he would bear his weaknesses to the world and to me and to himself.


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[Assistant] I make the same mistakes over and over and over again, he would say. We all do. I would tell him.


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[Assistant] There were other things he was better at than me.


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[Assistant] But he always downplayed those things. And we both knew that too.


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[Assistant] I put him in the worst locations with the greatest possible chances for failure and the highest probability for fire and theory and blood and death.


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[Assistant] And it seemed like, sooner or later, the bullets or the bombs would find him.


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[Assistant] No claim whatsoever to understand why things in life unfold the way they do.


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[Assistant] Sometimes it's just utter confusion. No rhyme, no reason.


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[Assistant] After deploying with me and surviving that bloody and violent battlefield, my friend.


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[Assistant] Like most of the guys in my old job, he volunteered to deploy again.


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[Assistant] And there was intense violence during that deployment for him as well.


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[Assistant] He told me that the enemy he was now facing wasn't as tactically skilled as the enemy we had faced. But he said that they were braver. And more determined.


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[Assistant] The enemy is aggressive. Casualty rates are very high. The enemy has new weapons that are extremely capable.


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[Assistant] I weighted the long and completely powerless weight.


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[Assistant] One known mostly by mothers and fathers and wives and children that are old enough to understand.


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[Assistant] But a way also made by the brothers at home.


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[Assistant] My friend had talked to his brother on the phone while my friend was on deployment.


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[Assistant] And my friend had explained to his brother in no uncertain terms, the situation that my friend was in.


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[Assistant] The enemy was extremely hostile. The battlefield was chaotic. The attacks were frequent and furious.


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[Assistant] Through the phone, even thousands of miles away as... His brother.


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[Assistant] Do you need anything from me? How can I help? Is there anything that I can do?


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[Assistant] I want you to think about that level of selflessness. That level of faith.


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[Assistant] And of commitment and of care for others. That dedication.


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[Assistant] In the face of fear and violence and death to at that moment put others before yourself.


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[Assistant] To be heroic and strong and brave and yet at the same time to be humble and to be willing to sacrifice everything for your friends.


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[Assistant] We see the light and for me, the light comes from the example of others. In this case, another person, another human being.


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[Assistant] My friend who despite all the powers of darkness stood up and rejected all that wickedness and proved that there is hope.


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[Assistant] At least as far as I can unravel the mystery, that's what I see. We are here and the best thing we can do.


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[Assistant] Because life is not easy. In fact, it is said, and there are very few that would deny that life itself is suffering.


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[Assistant] You were on podcast number 98 last time.


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[Assistant] And if anyone wants to stop right now, go and listen to 98 if you haven't listened to it yet. And that's a good place to start learning about you.


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[Assistant] And then you could also just Google Jordan Peterson and go from there, because there's...


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[Assistant] Thousands? You think there's thousands of hours of content of you on YouTube?


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[Assistant] The book is called 12, 12 Rules for Life. An antidote.


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[Assistant] And, you know, one of the key points in the book is life is suffering, right? And clearly, uhm, I think that-


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[Assistant] You know, obviously my old line of work, uh, we got to see that and we got to see it all the time.


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[Assistant] Two things. Number one, where does that come from? And you don't need to spend a bunch of time on that because you've talked about that so much. But more important to me, what happens when people miss that point?


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[Assistant] You know, when I was talking about my friend in the beginning of this podcast, that's why I was talking about it, because it was a guy who had every reason.


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[Assistant] That's what we used to say, okay, so we'd get these guys coming in the SEAL teams that would be, for a while we were recruiting just the, for the officer candidates, we were recruiting these guys that were, you know, they went to Ivy League schools and they were off the charts and 1600 on their SATs and then they were the captain of this and what, they were just these really high,


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[Assistant] You know, it's interesting that you, with this, this woman that you talked about in the beginning, you talk about how she's, you know, she's crouched down and she's looking down at the ground and all that. So, it's interesting.


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[Assistant] In your rules, obviously the first, the first rule is to stand up straight with your


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[Assistant] And you're saying that's a cycle that can go backwards. So you don't have to have like the serotonin first and then you stand up. If you stand up straight, you'll somehow increase your serotonin over time.


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[Assistant] So I had a, I was talking to one of my friends the other night, uh, his name is Joe. He's got a kid that's wrestling. His kid is six years old, I think. Dom.


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[Assistant] He's kinda getting his butt whipped now, and I'm really not sure, what do you think? And I said, well, you want him to win.


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[Assistant] Because when he wins, it's more fun. And he has more fun. So now I have actual more evidence that you should get your kids in a position. Again, I think your kids should get beat sometimes.


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[Assistant] Uh, but they should certainly not get beat down all the time. No, no, exactly. I did that to my kids when, when my kids first started jujitsu. I, I put them, oh you're good, you're gonna compete. Because I'm telling you to.


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[Assistant] They get so committed, let's say hockey, right? You get a kid that's just so committed to winning in hockey that he's gonna lose at other games?


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[Assistant] Yeah, you've got a lot of, uh, I mean, it's, it's interesting as I'm, since I just got done reading the book, you know, I can hear you just hitting the wave tops of all the different rules and they're all interconnected about don't, you know, don't lie or, or, or tell the truth or at least don't lie. And then, you know, hang. What's the, what's the chapter about? Hang around with people that want to see you do well. What's the actual chapter?


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[Assistant] Going to your book a little bit, I'm gonna, I'm gonna, um, pick up, going back to that first thought.


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[Assistant] Standing up means voluntarily accepting the burden of being.


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[Assistant] You respond to a challenge instead of bracing for a catastrophe. You see the gold the dragon hoards instead of shrinking in terror from the all too real fact of the dragon, you step forward to


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[Assistant] Take your place in the dominance hierarchy and occupy your territory, manifesting your willingness to defend, expand and transform it.


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[Assistant] To stand up straight with your shoulders back is to accept the terrible responsibility of life with eyes wide open.


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[Assistant] The reason I pulled that one out in particular is the feeling that you have as a soldier or as a military person. The feeling that you have going on an offensive operation.


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[Assistant] Where, let's say, you're a bad guy and I'm gonna come and get you at night. Well, first of all, you don't know, and I'm sneaking up on you, and I have all this power, right? I, I feel good about it. I'm going to get you.


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[Assistant] The opposite of that is when I'm doing a convoy or I'm going on a patrol where now the bad guys are out there, they're waiting to attack me and that is a defensive posture and your attitude about that type of thing is bad. Now we would train our guys that


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[Assistant] We made a specific point with my guys. I would say, look, when you're on patrol, we're on offense. We are scanning. We are looking to get the, to get us to be standing up straight and to get the mentality of we want to do this and we're moving towards the target as opposed to we're being chased.


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[Assistant] You know, when you're, when you're dealing with someone, you're dealing with an employee and you got to fire them and how this is big, hard conversation and et cetera, et cetera. No one wants to have those and.


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[Assistant] I always say, look, if you have the hard conversation earlier, it's not so hard because all I have to tell you is, hey Jordan, you know, you were late today and you were not supposed to be late and you go, oh, sorry. And the problems sorts itself out or, or it doesn't. And then then I got to escalate. But what you talk about in the book is if there's a problem,


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[Assistant] Go attack it. Go get that problem solved. Don't go after that dragon. You know the dragon's in there. Go get it.


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[Assistant] So what I think people might get the idea is, okay, if I'm in a relationship with my wife and she,


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[Assistant] We, we had a guy on the podcast named Charlie Plum. He was a pilot in Vietnam. He was shot down in, uhm, and on his last mission.


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[Assistant] Of his deployment, he was shot down, he was captured, he was in the Hanoi Hilton for six years.


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[Assistant] This is the deal that they had amongst their roommates. So they had roommates in a room smaller than we're in right now. And there'd be four of them in there, three of them in there, two of them in there, depending on what was going on.


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[Assistant] It's my fault. It's my fault for allowing you clip, click, click your nails together or you pick your nose a lot or you itch your head. Whatever it is that you do that bothers me, it's my problem and I have to absorb it. Because otherwise what we have is we have like rats in a cage that are going to gnaw each other apart. And I thought about that.


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[Assistant] While I was reading the part of the book that was saying, and you actually also later in the book talk about, hey, you know, are you going to fight over this little stupid thing or are you going to absorb? And I talk about that a lot.


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[Assistant] As a leader, as a person in a relationship. Hey, there's problems from your boss.


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[Assistant] Yeah, could we maybe figure out another way to cook that? Or could we try? You know, but I'll take the blame for, for the situation rather than


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[Assistant] You're, you're disrespectful. Don't put your feet on my desk. This is...


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[Assistant] You actually did tell that whole thing in the book, so that's, it's good as in there, and actually the phrasing that you used when you say if you win an argument, you said something along the lines of, you win, you win that argument, they're the loser.


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[Assistant] Myself and my, my, my buddy Leif Babin, we wrote a book called Extreme Ownership, and the whole premise is, you take responsibility for when things go wrong. You say, yea, this was my fault. So, I'll go to clients, and I'll be meeting with them.


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[Assistant] And I'll say, look, when something goes wrong with your team, you guys made a mistake, you fail at whatever you're trying to accomplish, you know, you gotta take ownership of it, you stand up and you say, hey look, this was my fault. And this is what, you know, we're gonna do.


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[Assistant] And they look at me like, well, so your plan, Jocko, sucks. Because if I say this is my fault, my team is going to look at me and say, you're right, it is your fault. And then what do I do? And like, I kind of get a little bit, maybe a little bit frustrated because I look at them and I say,


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[Assistant] From for me and I get a lot of and I know you get infinitely more than me But I'll get someone that reports to me a problem or a situation that they're in that seems really bad and and what I've found is


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[Assistant] The solution that they're looking for, the only solution that they can conceive of is one that is going to provide that solution.


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[Assistant] Within a two week time frame, like that's what we're talking about. If I'm not, if this problem isn't solved in two weeks, then, you know, this is hell. And I always kind of report back and say, hey,


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[Assistant] You're in a job right now that I understand it's bad, I understand it's your boss is terrible, the team is terrible, whatever the case is, or you're in a situation, or your family is this, or whatever.


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[Assistant] So, conceive a plan right now, and it's not gonna take two weeks, it might take six months, it might take a year, it might take a year and a half of you saving your money and setting your resume and getting the other skills that you need. If you can, if you can extend your time, and I'll tell you what, when you, when you come up with that plan, when you conceive of that plan, immediately, you have hope.


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[Assistant] You, one of the sections in the book, you talk about uhm, I believe the person's name was Lunchbox?


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[Assistant] Lunch bucket, lunch bucket, right. Toro lunch bucket. You know, since we're talking about work environments and there's that certain level of camaraderie, and you actually talk about the SEAL teams in here, where you just have this


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[Assistant] There's a test. It's a test. It's a test to see where you're at. It's what you're made of. Can we rely on you?


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[Assistant] Well, when you, when you, when you stop reacting, it's no longer fun. Yeah.


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[Assistant] The, uh, this new kids book I wrote. So, uh, the kid Mark, he's getting made fun of by this...


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[Assistant] He's a different kind of bully, he's like a mental bully that verbally abuses people and he gets called plate face by this character and to


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[Assistant] And eventually he gets in trouble for throwing something at the kid because he's calling him plate face, but eventually the way he befriends the kid is by he, they have to do a self portrait class and he draws a picture of himself looking like a plate and he shows up again, the kid laughs and all of a sudden their buddies and it's like, that's what you do. You take away that you take away the joy.


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[Assistant] But one of the things, and I think it's a good note to end on, at least a little bit, to touch on, cause you're kinda talking about it right now, is, you know, the last rule is to pet a cat when you encounter one on the street.


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[Assistant] Well, yeaah, again, I'm looking at the clock. We gotta get you out of here. Uhm, first of all,


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[Assistant] 12 rules for life. Uhm, an antidote to chaos. That's out right now. It's number one on Amazon in America, UK, Canada, everywhere. That's pretty awesome.


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[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah. Everyone should just get it. Uhm, and because we didn't talk about anything I wanted to talk about today.


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[Assistant] And on top of that, you've got your podcast, you've got your YouTube channel, which has


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[Assistant] I know it's hard work and I know it's taxing on you and on your family life and all that.


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[Assistant] Well, we have excused Dr. Jordan Peterson from the, is this a recording studio? No, we're in a rented office space. Makeshift. Makeshift. Jordan had to go catch a plane and


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[Assistant] Very good things for your joints. Uhm, we, you know, at some point we'll go through everything that's in there. Yeah. Not today.


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[Assistant] We'll do something so that, cause I don't want to sit here and talk about, but it's good. Yeah, it's good. Use it. Yeah, use it.


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[Assistant] Enhancer. And I'll tell you the only downfall of it right now, well there's a couple. Number one, it tastes delicious so you want to drink a lot of it.


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[Assistant] Number two, the other day, the other day I drank a lot of it and then I had to go and give a speech. I had to use the restroom right before I went on stage or something like that.


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[Assistant] See, I'm trying to avoid that. Yeaah, yeaah, see, so I get it. So I just took a mouth, a little scoop. Yeaah. And it's not too bad. In fact, you know what, uh,


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[Assistant] That's kinda what it's like, only it's not quite as horrible as that. It's better than that.


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[Assistant] I am very traditional and I use the white gi, but I do have a deaf gi that's black. But some schools, they don't even allow other colors than white and blue. Yea, that's true. But Pete says black is the number one seller.


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[Assistant] Can you compete IBJJF with a black guy? I don't know. I forget, but here's what we were talking about when you're a little kid and you think about martial arts. What do you want to be?


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[Assistant] The ninja. You wanna be a ninja. Yeaah. And so now you got a 36 year old guy, or a 28 year old guy. Sure. And he finally, he's feeling kinda ninja-ish. Yeaah man. Cause he's doing the jujitsu. Yeaah. And he's, you take that one extra step. Yeaah. Now he's got a black gi. Boom, ninja. Yeaah.


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[Assistant] There's an old Charles Bronson movie. What do you mean? An old Charles Bronson movie called The Mechanic. Yea, I know The Mechanic. There's a scene where the traditional karate guy is gonna fight a guy that's got some new tricks up his sleeve. Sure. And the traditional karate guy has to get nuts on him. Yea. But he's just a plain white gi.


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[Assistant] Yeaah, yeaah, yeaah, that's the tradition. And Charles Bronson too. Yeaah. So I'm just, you know, holding the line.


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[Assistant] You are not, uh, standing out at all when you have a black gi. Now, you might be, if you go to a traditional, you know, school that has only white gi's, yea, you're gonna stand out. You come into Victory MMA and fitness, you could be wearing a purple gi, no one's gonna care. No one's even gonna look at you second. Camouflaging. Yea, no one cares.


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[Assistant] Yeah, and because the reason that I just popped into my mind. Cause they have spats now. Cause they have spats now. The first run of spats are green and like some other color. Yeah, yellow. Lime green, right? Interesting, yeah. Don't worry.


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[Assistant] Nothing against people that do. There's some crazy jujitsu guys out there that are wearing tights like you read about. But, I said, hey Pete, I'm not wearing tights.


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[Assistant] I know a lot of people that do, make some black ones or something else. He said, got it. You can get, obviously the rash guards are good to go.


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[Assistant] I can't even say, I can't even say, hey Pete, don't, you know, no one's gonna like those. You know why? Because my sense of fashion is so off. My sense of fashion is non-existent.


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[Assistant] Yeah, okay, that's right. Well, no, it's non-existent. Yeah, if you had one, it would be.


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[Assistant] Okay, yeah, well, so that's why I can't even say, hey Pete, I can't say, I can't make a blanket statement like Pete, people won't like those. I can't even say that because I have no idea. So I just said, what I do know is people would definitely like some black ones. Yeah, that's pretty safe to say.


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[Assistant] Yeah, and I say, okay, you know, I don't know, that's, I gotta stay humble over here. Yeah. I can't claim to, claim to have any, any footing to stand on at all when it comes to fashion. Fashion. Of any kind. Other than haircuts, I'm pretty good with those. You know what? Yeah.


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[Assistant] I do. Yea, I do. 20 pounder. You think 20 pounds is not heavy? Yea. It's heavy. Yea. It's really heavy.


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[Assistant] 12 Lutz for life, an antidote to chaos. Jordan B. Peterson.


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[Assistant] Go to jocopodcast.com and click on books. All the books are there. That's the club right there? Yea. Don't have to ask me about the book club. The books are there. Alright.


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[Assistant] Just a ready review, a funny review. Yeah, I'm go like once a week. Now I go and read all the new reviews. Yeah. Looking for gems. Yeah, there's some gems in there. Straight up gems.


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[Assistant] The thing about Jocko's store, I don't know if you've ever made this clear, well,


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[Assistant] Maybe you have, but if you want to support the podcast, that's a good way to support the podcast. For a while people wanted us to do a thing where you donate money.


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[Assistant] If you want something, get something. If you don't want something, don't. Alright, cool. We'll abide by that.


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[Assistant] If you like that, you can also get Discipline Equals Freedom Field Manual on iTunes, Amazon Music, Google Play, other MP3 platforms. It's not on Audible. It's not on Audible.


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[Assistant] It's available as an album. Actually two albums. Also you get Jock-A-White-T, which as everybody now knows,


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[Assistant] We'll increase your deadlift to a minimum of 8,000 pounds. Been proven over and over again. Everyone knows it now. It's really not impressive anymore, since so many people are hitting that 8,000 pound max.


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[Assistant] Books, Jordan B Peterson, Maps of Meaning is his first book. It's old, it's big, it's expensive. I have it. It's, it's a great read. Also 12 Rules for Life, an antidote to chaos. Weigh the Warrior Kid. So, Weigh the Warrior Kid.


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[Assistant] Kids book. Teaching kids how to get on the path. Now.


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[Assistant] There's a new book coming out. A new Warrior Kid book. It is available now on Amazon. It's called Way of the Warrior Kid Marks Mission. It's a follow up.


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[Assistant] Also, as I already mentioned, discipline equals freedom, field manual, that is available.


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[Assistant] If you want to get bigger, stronger, faster, smarter, more disciplined, better.


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[Assistant] Get that book. And then implement it. Cause you can get the book and sit around and play video games. It's not gonna make you any of those things. You have to actually get it, you have to read it, you have to implement it. So, that works. Oh, also with the warrior kids, don't forget you can get some warrior kid soap, basically.


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[Assistant] I got some. Did you get some? Yeaah. Yeaah. It's good to go. irishoaksranch.com. Young Aiden. Who's a warrior kid. Making his own soap. Business owner. Age 12. Check that out.


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[Assistant] Extreme Ownership, book by myself and my brother Leif Babin. It's about combat leadership.


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[Assistant] It's about how to lead. That's what it's about. And people think that's a simple thing. It's not. You even heard Jordan B. Peterson say today, leadership is very complicated. He's right.


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[Assistant] So, extreme ownership will help you in your leadership.


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[Assistant] Skills, tactics, and strategies. Also, if you need leadership guidance and direction at your company, at your business, or at your team, beyond what we give you here on this podcast and beyond the books,


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[Assistant] I have a leadership and management consulting company. It's called Echelon Front.


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[Assistant] Where we will get the leadership you have and thereby your whole organization aligned and moving forward together. It's me, it's Leif Babin, it's JP Donnell, it's Dave Burke. You can email info at echelonfront.com.


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[Assistant] Or you can go to the website, ashlandfront.com. Also, there is The Muster.


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[Assistant] So, the muster, everyone that's been to it, there's nothing else like it. The people that work at the hotels we've done it at have said there's nothing else like it. So...


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[Assistant] It's awesome. If you want to come to it, we're only doing two musters this year. We don't have time to do more. We're doing one in Washington DC, May 17th and 18th.


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[Assistant] That's for the East Coast people. May 17th and 18th, Washington DC. And then we're gonna do San Francisco, October 17th and 18th. That's for your West Coast people.


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[Assistant] Those are the only two musters that we're doing this year. We're not doing Vancouver. We're not doing Atlanta. We're not doing Memphis. We're not doing Tampa. Those are all great cities, but we're not gonna do a muster there. We've had four musters already.


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[Assistant] San Diego, New York City, San Diego again, and Austin, Texas. All the musters that we've done have sold out. These two that we're doing this year are going to sell out as well. So if you want to come, register at ExtremeOwnership.com. We will see you there. And until then, if you want to get on the path with us,


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[Assistant] If you can find us, we'll be cruising on the interwebs, on Twitter, on Instagram.


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[Assistant] Jordan Peterson is at Jordan B Peterson. He's also got the YouTube channel Jordan Peterson. He's got Jordan Peterson dot com Echo is at echo Charles and I am at Jocko willing and finally thanks to all of you


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[Assistant] I know a lot of men and women in uniform listen to this podcast. I hear from you all the time. Well,


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[Assistant] We would not have this podcast if it wasn't for you.


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[Assistant] Overseas, holding the line and keeping evil at bay. And to the people in uniform here at home, police, law enforcement, firefighters, paramedics, and the rest of you first responders, thank you for keeping us safe inside our borders.


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[Assistant] And to everyone else out there, moving through life. And that's good. That's fine. But I recommend you don't just move through life. I recommend you move down the path.


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[Assistant] Oh brother. We got so many stories to tell you. I was on my way to combat on the aircraft carrier Kitty Hawk. We stopped in Hawaii for our last.


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[Assistant] Hoorah. And, uh, so we went out and found some pubs and what not. Well, I had rented a little, um, a motor scooter, you know, like a little Vespa. Alright.


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[Assistant] And pin my right ankle between the frame of the motor scooter and the truck. Well, and so I, you know, I came out and dusted myself off. I'm thinking, okay, then I try to walk, you know, I'm not walking very well. And so I go up to the closest house and knock on the door.


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[Assistant] And say, uh, you know, I guess I need a ride to the hospital. I went over to Tripler. Hospital, big hospital in Hawaii.


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[Assistant] And uhm, and the doc, uh, there looks at me and he takes an x-ray of my leg. And you know, it was really funny when you, when you see an x-ray of a broken part of your body, you know, you're in disbelief. You know, you're like, wait, how can this happen? You know, you're in denial.


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[Assistant] And the guy said, uh, okay, report to, uh, uh, wing, uh, Bravo, uh, floor three. I said, what's on Bravo three? He said, it's all the other idiots that broke their leg riding motor scooters in Hawaii.


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[Assistant] I just to help start the top gun school, I gotta, I gotta get out of here. I gotta go win the war, you know? And, and I'll never forget this doctor. His name was Jensen. Dr. Jensen said, son, take my advice. Um, you can get into war in six months or so after your leg heals. And so,


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[Assistant] I said, I can't do that. I gotta go back to the ship. He said, you can't ride around on a ship with a broken leg.


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[Assistant] Oh no, I can't let you do that. You know, re-re-re-re-re-report to all the other characters that broke their legs.


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[Assistant] No, no, I can't do that. So I find I'm arguing with this doctor who outranked me by about three ranks. And, uh, uh, I said, tell you what, let me call the ship. I'll let you talk to our flight surgeon and he can assure you that I'll be okay by going back to the ship because I got to go to the war.


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[Assistant] So I, so I called the ship, well of course the flight surgeon out getting drunk too, you know.


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[Assistant] So he wasn't there. In fact, the only one in sick bay on that ship was a, was a, uh, uh, a corpsman, uh, like a third class corpsman, okay, and he doesn't know what he's doing, but I say, okay, I'm whispering to the guys, okay, tell, tell this doctor that you're in charge of the hospital and that it's okay for me to come back.


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[Assistant] And so, I got these crutches, and I crutch up to Gangway, you know, and uh, request permission to come aboard, and the OD says permission granted, and I hobble my way into the sick bay. Okay, here's the same third class corpsman sitting there, and he doesn't know what he's doing.


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[Assistant] And he doesn't sign me in or anything. He says, uh, you know, go to the officer's quiet room that we got one of those in sick bay. And so I crushed my way back to his quiet room.


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[Assistant] And I, I am exhausted. I'm totally in this leg is starting to swell inside the cast and I'm in pain. And so I just flopped down in this, in this rack, okay, in the quiet room. Well, the next thing I hear is the engines of the ship starting up and we're about to leave.


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[Assistant] Meanwhile, my squadron buddies, you know, wanting to leave no man behind says, where's Charlie? They went back on the beach searching for me for the last place they saw me was disappearing towards Diamond Head on a Vespa.


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[Assistant] Okay, so I wake up and I know what's happening. You know, I gotta tell somebody I'm here. Nobody knows I'm here. I mean, you know, the third class corpsman, he didn't sign me in. He didn't know who I was. Okay? And so...


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[Assistant] So, you know, you have these squeeze bottles, you know, in a hospital room and it's supposed to, so I'm squeezing on this bottle trying to attract a nurse or something, you know, at the end there. Squeeze, squeeze, squeeze, and I finally looked up and the hose from the bottle was cut. I was just squeezing air.


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[Assistant] The hatch, you know, and I finally attracted attention of this sailor.


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[Assistant] And I say, you better go up to the ready room and squadron 114 and you better tell them up there that I'm down here. Well, it wasn't probably two minutes later, the commanding officer standing in the doorway. All right. And he is not happy. He said, I've got 17 pilots. He said, and now I got 16.


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[Assistant] He said, he said, first of all, he said, what are they telling you? When are you going to be ready to fly again? I said, six weeks. Well, I, you know, weeks, months, I kind of got that confused and he said, you're going home. Ooh, I'm going to get a replacement pilot view.


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[Assistant] Oh no, please, please, please let me stay. I gotta stay with the squadron, you know, I gotta be with the troops, you know, please. And so now you're going home.


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[Assistant] Oh, please, we, I said, okay, uh, Skipper, what if I, uh, you need, you need a pilot from the squadron to run the, the maintenance on, uh, uh, uh, QB point in the Philippines, you know, uh, a pilot stand behind it.


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[Assistant] I'll take care and I'll run those troops for you. I can do that on a crutch. And so he said, okay.


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[Assistant] He let me, uh, he let me off, uh, uh, uh, in the Philippines and well, the rest of the squadron, you know, went through the first line period.


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[Assistant] Uh, they went out there, and I'm crunching my way around the Philippines, uh, with a, you know, I had probably six or eight chiefs and a hundred mechanics, you know, working on these airplanes. Well, so they would send these airplanes back to me, but I didn't have any way to test them.


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[Assistant] The army, a trip or hospital, had not taken my wings. They'd not given me a down shit so I, so they told me I couldn't fly. Why, you know? So I talked to the doctor there at Subic Bay to put on a walking cast. Okay, so I got a little cast.


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[Assistant] And so, uh, I can, you know, I'm qualified to test these airplanes. I can do this. So the problem was, first of all, I couldn't get into the airplane because my cast was too big to go into the toe hole.


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[Assistant] And so I have my crew forklift me up and into the airplane. My second problem was I couldn't use my right foot to push the right rudder. And this is kind of a nose wheel steering airplane, the F4, where you got to be able to push the rudder to steer.


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[Assistant] In the Philippines, and instead of making, they'd say, okay, you're cleared right hand turn. Couldn't make a right hand turn. I made three left hand turns to get off the runway. So the squadron finally came back and I got back with them, got my little cast off, and I started flying missions.


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[Assistant] But, until the day I was shot down, I was still limping on that ankle. And I was really afraid with a diet in the prison camp that that was never gonna heal. But, uh, you know, as luck and fate would have it, it healed up fine. And so, you know, it, uh,


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[Assistant] And this little, little bitty airport up in the valley above Santa Barbara called Santa Ynez. And he helped me, uhm, build a hangar and, uh,


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[Assistant] It, it was kind of interesting, the attraction and...


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[Assistant] In fact, my wife brought this up. She said, you know, you're going to have three generations of warriors talking on these telephones. I mean, today on this podcast. You got Jim Kunkel, and 30 years later you got Charlie Pum, and 30 years later you got Jocko Wulink.


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[Assistant] He said, there's a certain attraction with warriors. I don't know what it is with our brains, you know, but there's some kind of a...


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[Assistant] And so, even though there, I don't know, there are probably a hundred pilots on this airport, uh, Jim and I just kind of hit it off without even knowing our history.


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[Assistant] Uh, and the more we got to know each other, this is like 20 years ago, the more we got to know each other, the more, uh, similar philosophies of life, you know, we had.


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[Assistant] And, uh, and so it's not just our flying, cause Jim still flies, of course I still fly. And, uh, of course I've got an old antique airplane that, uh, from his training days. Uh, and, uh, but more than that, the technology has changed, the enemy has changed.


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[Assistant] Uh, from World War II to Vietnam to Iraq, you know, eh, eh, eh, eh, eh, eh, eh, eh, eh, eh, eh, eh, eh, eh, eh, eh, eh, eh, eh, eh, eh, eh, eh, eh, eh, eh, eh, eh, eh, eh, eh, eh, eh, eh, eh, eh, eh, eh, eh, eh, eh, eh, eh, eh, eh, eh, eh, eh, eh, eh, eh, eh, eh, eh, eh, eh, eh, eh, eh, eh, eh, eh, eh, eh, eh, eh, eh, eh, eh, eh, eh, eh, eh, eh, eh, eh, eh, eh, eh, eh, eh, eh, eh, eh, eh, eh, eh, eh, eh, eh, eh, eh, eh, eh, eh, eh, eh, eh, eh, eh, eh, eh, eh, eh, eh,


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[Assistant] We're all accountable. We're responsible, not just for our lives, but for our buddies. And there's something about that, that community of warriors, uh, that, that really connects. So that's how Jim and I


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[Assistant] Got started, he built the hangar for me and, uh, and I moved in. My wife made a man cave out of it. And so, uh, so I mean, that's, that's where we are. We're, we're sitting here doing this.


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[Assistant] Not, uh, nothing which, uh, specifically comes to mind, uh, but now that, you know, that the three, uh, warriors are here together, you know, I think we should talk a little bit about philosophies of combat and the fears that we've faced, uh, because I think, you know, to the general public,


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[Assistant] The vast majority of your listeners and viewers, uh, are not in the military. Uh, and so, you know, my, my thought is, well, how do they relate? Oh, it's interesting history. You know, I love the history of the greater generation.


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[Assistant] And, uh, I love your history as well and the things that are going on to, you know, today that the guy's at the point of the spear. But what does that mean to the, you know, to the average guy, you know, uh, who's never been in the military?


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[Assistant] There's some principles I believe that the three of us learned in combat that can, that's transferable I think to...


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[Assistant] To all challenges of life, you know.


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[Assistant] Just, you know, the fact that you face your fears, you know, you step into the box and Jim did it and you've done it, where you could have run the other way, you know, you could have quit, you could have checked out.


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[Assistant] You know, I mean, all three of us felt like that we had a duty, a duty to our country, a duty to our brotherhood, uh, and so we, you know, picked up the


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[Assistant] I picked up the baton and continued on. Uhm, and so, you know, to me that's sort of the important part. The part that you can transfer more than just the military history that we all have. The philosophy of meeting challenges. Because I'm convinced, you know, you can be in just as much of a


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[Assistant] You don't have to be flying jet airplanes or running around the SEAL teams.


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[Assistant] You can face challenges when a person is diagnosed with cancer or loses a child or for that matter gets cut out of your lane on the freeway. Uh, you have a choice.


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[Assistant] Uh, on not only your character, but then it also, uh, transmit into the outcome of the character that you continue to be in life.


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[Assistant] And so, while we're, you know, 30, 60 years apart in our, in our generations here, our philosophies of life and the warrior


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[Assistant] Uh, psyche, uh, continues. And so, uh, I'm just really, really proud to be a part of this and proud to be, uh, uh, with you, Jaco, and of course with you, Jim. Jim and I see each other probably a couple times a month. We get together. We have dinner. Our wives, you know, cook good meals and we go fly sometimes.


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[Assistant] Uh, and there's a certain silent language I think between us, uh, that we don't even have to talk to each other, uh, and yet we understand.


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[Assistant] What's going on, you know, where, where we're coming from and the, the accountability that, that we share, uh, just because of the experiences that we've had.


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[Assistant] And a couple of things about that. First of all, it isn't easy. In fact, usually the right thing is the toughest thing. You know, it's the hard decision. The second thing is, it doesn't always turn out.


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[Assistant] Uhm, for the best, when you do the right thing. Lots of times we stumble, you know, and, and your listeners may think that the three of us, you know, have always, uh, you know, been on the top of the heap.


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[Assistant] All three of us have fallen short. You know, I mean, uh, I'll tell you this, uh, languishing in prison camp, the first, the first month in that prison camp, I laid there in, in, in blood and sweat and tears and


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[Assistant] Uh, and my mental state was just in the tank.


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[Assistant] And I think that largely in life, you know, when you do do the right thing and it doesn't turn out right, then you have to get up, dust yourself off, get back in the fray. And that's tough to do. You know, the last thing you want to do when you're getting beat up


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[Assistant] Is to stand up and be forceful again to, you know, to take control of the situation.


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[Assistant] And yet, it's those kinds of challenges in life that build that character, you know, that really make the difference between


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[Assistant] And not only that, but largely that bump in the road builds your character even further because you understand your limitations and you understand that you can overcome these things.


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[Assistant] And, you know, back to the story of the prisons of war, 591 of us came home.


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[Assistant] And battalions all over the world. We have a bunch of congressmen, two United States senators, uh, vice presidential candidate, presidential candidate, uh, all from 591 guys. Uh, and, and so, and, and we all felt like we'd failed. We all felt like we'd given up.


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[Assistant] But even because of that adversity, you know, we came out stronger than ever before.


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[Assistant] I think you're right. You know, I think that's the crux of our real serious challenge with suicide within the veteran population. And I've worked on this, and Jim's worked on this, and you've worked on it as well.


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[Assistant] That we exposed ourselves, you know, we recognized our weakness and to a man, we knew that we weren't as strong as we wanted to be. And so uhm,


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[Assistant] Just, just that community that we built within the prison camp, tapping on walls and tugging on wires and our secret codes.


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[Assistant] I am bleeding from four open wounds. I have no medical care. I'm, I'm, I'm starving. I've been tortured. Uh, I'm down to 115 pounds and I'm not on the defensive. I'm, I'm not a victim. Pull up your big boy pants. Let's get on with this thing. We got a war to fight. And, and, and, and so the leadership totally


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[Assistant] They refocused the whole purpose of our being there and gave us a mission.


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[Assistant] And I think that's one of the challenges we face when a guy gets out of the military or a gal and takes off that uniform.


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[Assistant] He loses the purpose, he loses that mission, and he loses that community. And he puts on a coat and tie or, you know, puts on a golf shirt and goes out and tries to reconnect with people.


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[Assistant] Uhm, and Jim is what you were talking about, you know, being in civilian clothes in Paris and you were looking for some way to reconnect.


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[Assistant] And ironically, here they come marching down the Champs-Élysées.


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[Assistant] And, and, and, and there you were, back in uniform. And, and, and so you, and, and you had, uh,


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[Assistant] Uh, raison d'être, you know, you had a purpose, a reason to live.


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[Assistant] Just because of the group that you were associated with.


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[Assistant] Whenever I speak publicly, I, you know, I challenge an audience to, if you've got, if you know a veteran, you know, uh, talk to him, you know, give him a purpose, uh, you know, invite him to into your, into your house or your club or your church and, uh, make a difference.


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[Assistant] And that way you can serve your country by serving those who serve their country.


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[Assistant] Big sell. Big sell. Absolutely. You know, when I was in the hospital at Great Lakes, uh, after the war, I was in a hospital up there. I mean, I, I didn't have any serious problems, but I was in a debriefing thing and, but I had figured out in that hospital and even on the way home,


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[Assistant] That my, my next stage of life is going, I'm going to try to forget all that six years of, uh, in that prison camp, that six years of pain.


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[Assistant] Uhm, and I even had it figured out I'm gonna go to some little town in the middle of nowhere where they've never heard of Charlie Plum. And if they have, I'll change my name because I don't want anybody knowing my history. I want, you know, I want to slide back into the shadows of life.


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[Assistant] My high, my high school sweetheart had just filed for divorce, uh, three months before I came home. And, uh, and, and so I was, uh, you know, I mean, I felt free and I felt energized, but I really didn't want to have anything to do with the Vietnam war or any of the pain that I had faced there. I saw no value in it.


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[Assistant] And I was, and so I was the first guy back from the war in the midwest and so the news media, you know, really wanted to talk to me and so.


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[Assistant] And I told my story. And on the way back up to my hospital room, just as the elevator doors closed, this young reporter, uhm, came up to me, and I'm nose to nose with this young guy, but he's got lines of anguish in his brow and tears in his eyes, and he said, Mr. Plum, you really got to me in there. He said,


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[Assistant] I've had a miserable year. My family's falling apart. My job is terrible. He said, I even wondered if I wanted to go on living. He said, you've given me hope.


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[Assistant] That, you know, the pain of that experience can help one person, you know, in life, then maybe there is a purpose to it. And so, uh, so I wrote a book, My Autobiography, and I started to promote that book, and I found that yes, there's a lot of connection.


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[Assistant] You know, that a single mother trying to make ends meet makes, you know, the frustration and the loneliness and the...


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[Assistant] And the, and the lack of confidence and the feeling that you're not measuring up and you know, all of these things, these are, these are common human feelings. You don't have to be in a prison camp to be in prison, you know.


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[Assistant] Deep thought. Well thanks for that, Jim. I appreciate you saying that. Uh, but let me toss one more question at you, Jaco, because Jim and I have both talked about getting shot down and feeling miserable. After your fight where you accidentally killed one of the Iraqi soldiers, uh, I bet you felt pretty low about that.


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[Assistant] So, you know, the toughest, uh, flying that I ever did, uh, was in combat in support of the ground troops and they'd bring us in, uh, with rockets or bombs or napalm. We didn't have any guns on that airplane.


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[Assistant] And, uh, but we knew that we had to get close, but not too close to the, to the friendlies, uh, to be effective. You know, we couldn't, uh, put our weapons, uh, you know,


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[Assistant] And, and we all did that. You know, we weren't supposed to, but, uh, you know, an average bomb, you know, 500 pound bomb would have a frag pattern of 2,400 feet above the ground. That's what you were flying through after you dropped the bomb. And we'd go below that just to get more accuracy, uh, because we knew that those guys were depending on us.


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[Assistant] And boy, there were some happy facts, you know, after we would support those ground troops. But it was, you know, it was pretty scary stuff.


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[Assistant] But back to your point about blaming other people, I had a coach early on in a very losing team, sorry to say, but, but he, but he would, he, he told us this because we'd start, you know, blaming other things for the problem. You know, yeah, we were away and we didn't, you know,


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[Assistant] The things weren't right and so we blamed somebody for this or somebody that, you know, the refs were calling bad calls and all this stuff. And he said, you know, he said,


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[Assistant] Uh, the difference in success and failure in life is not the things around you. It's the choices you make about things around you, and you can blame everybody else for your problems, but in doing so, you give away control of your life.


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[Assistant] And I think that's the, the accountability issue that you're talking about, you know, is that there's, there's certainly freedom in discipline. There's also freedom in accountability, I think, because when you, like you say, you know, when you say, okay, yeah, lots of people made a lot of mistakes, but oh, by the way, I was in charge. And so, you know, the onus is really on me.


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[Assistant] And I find that when I, when I practice taking uhm,


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[Assistant] When I practiced taking responsibility for some of the bad things that really weren't my fault.


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[Assistant] Uh, and I practice doing that. It frees me up, I think, to lit, you know, to live a, uhm, a freer life.


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[Assistant] I think we've covered it all, really great being with you guys, you know, I think that the transfer of our, not necessarily our knowledge, but our war stories, but just the philosophy, you know, that we're coming up with, because it, uh, it spans the test of time, I think, and will continue to


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[Assistant] Spend the test of time, you know, the accountability issue.


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[Assistant] The face your fears issue, the making choices issue, the refusal to blame other people for your problems, you know, take control of your life. And it's not just a military thing. I think it's true with our kids. It's true with students.


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[Assistant] Politicians and all, all manners of our society just, I think, needs a...


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[Assistant] It's, that's war. It's the same thing. Yeah, that's true. Yeah, when you deal with like, death is kind of the goal and the consequence at the same time. Like death, that's the end of the line. So yeah, anything goes essentially. Yeah. Yeah, nothing else is like that.


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[Assistant] No, cause you're just saying the word good and better, like there's this universal good and better, you know. I think there is. No, there isn't. I mean there is. Okay, okay. But it's so narrow like this. Next time we have Jordan B Peterson on here.


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[Assistant] Good taste in your mouth, sugar rush, get some. And technically- And you pay for that. For your health and fitness. For sure. So if you- You don't seem to care? No. Who, me? No man, I care. I care a lot. Okay, I'm just making sure. I'm trying to look at it from all angles. Satisfaction, yeaah.


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[Assistant] But not what I'm saying the point is is that your way Not everyone will agree. I agree with you Okay, and I'm sure a bunch of you, but I'm just saying there's like different. No, I guess I'm not


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[Assistant] Yeah, and then wouldn't you have to expend more resources on your part to coach me up?


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[Assistant] Yeah, but that's a big part of like why he's saying it though, right? Because it's like you're gonna save yourself a lot of time and headaches when you're trying to coach these guys up and stuff.


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[Assistant] Yeaah, that makes sense, huh? Cause on one hand, you kinda can look at it as like, taxes, right? Where, just like how de Saxe was saying, uhm, you know, you have to have the, I'm paraphrasing, the pleasure or the honor to serve in one's, your country's defense. You know, like that should be obvious, it's obvious.


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[Assistant] And so it's kind of like compare it with paying taxes, right? Taxes go to public service, like for all this stuff, and we live in this country, we have public service, we all have to pay for it. It's not just one person, we all pay taxes.


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[Assistant] I actually know about that now. Get some. Thankfully, or not so thankfully.


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[Assistant] And you're like, yeah, I just pay my taxes, you know, whatever. Like I didn't like giving my money away, but that's it. You know, just like people in the, in a draft situation or, or mandatory. I didn't want to, I would rather go be a rake or whatever. And, but I'm doing it and boom, I did it. And then you got me or maybe that means someone else.


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[Assistant] saying, oh yeaah, I didn't pay my taxes. Yeah. And then you're like, whoa, wait, wait.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] No, no, no. I think there's a part of your brain, no matter how much you pay for taxes, it is like, you do have that feeling like, yea, I did my part. Even though it sucked, even though it hurt, even though, you know, I would way rather have spent it on a Disney vacation or something like that. No, I would have rather invested in myself.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You see what I'm saying though, you know what I mean? I hear you. It's kind of the same thing. That's one way to look at it though, the way you can. But the other, the other- It is one way, yes. Yeah, yeah, but the other way is just like how you said, if you get some people who are in there, in the military with certain like jobs or whatever and they don't want to be there, it's kind of like, it's kind of too important to have people like that, you know?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Oh yeaah, and of course same thing with like attack situation, where it's like you're, if you don't wanna do it, it's kinda hard to be like,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I know you don't want to do it, but hey, now that you're here, do what you want. You know, you kind of can't say that. Otherwise I'll be like, I don't want to be here. So I can choose what I can do. Okay. I'm going to do the most smallest, most light, least time consuming. Like basically I'm going to do the least I possibly can because I don't want to be here to be in the military.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, it's essentially like a draft dodger kind of situation, but within the, you know, who didn't actually dodge it. If, if, I'm just saying, if it were a scenario like, we'll just put them where their interests lie, even though they have to be here. You see what I'm saying? So I'm just saying that's the other side of the coin where it's like, eh, it's hard to make, make it work in an absolute kind of way.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So, if your dad would be considered parsimonious?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] No. In Hawaii, they don't do that. Well, yeaah, you drive 18 miles, you're in the ocean most of the time, but yeaah, I've heard of that before. Isn't that like a false thing though? Like cause you drove 18 miles? Yeaah, for sure.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Huh, I'll try to use that one. But that's because the, because it's like a li- it's like a win, right? You get a win when you got the deal. Oh, you think you got the psychological win. Yeah, yeah, yeah.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, fully. And you kind of see that in like, in like a workout for example. Like if you have a, in football we'd have like conditioning, right? And sometimes they'd just be like, hey we're just running sprints, wind sprints. They wouldn't say, hey we got 10 wind sprints, it's not like that. And after a while like guys are dying and you know, not dying, but you know we're


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] No, no, because the work life, no, because there is no templated time allotted, you know, that you need to spend with these people or those people at work versus family. There's no like thing, you know, sometimes if you're like, hey, I need to spend more time with my wife, your wife's like,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Go do, leave me alone, you know, like we, we spent the weekend together. Calm down, you know, go to work or whatever. Some people like that and it's a spectrum. So work life balance is like it depends on your wife and you know, in a husband wife situation.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeaah. Yeaah, and at least the capability still exists. And the capability is there. Yes.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] In Hawaii they call that big for nothing. Actually big for nothing in Hawaii means like, I guess here they say all go no show, right? So that's kinda what having big arms and small legs kinda is as well, right?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, fools, they're kind of focusing on the wrong thing. And it makes sense. Even like in those terms, it makes sense today.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That marching thing is, that's crazy, I didn't know that, that marching thing. Like, that's why you march to cadence or whatever. It's like, so, that caterpillar effect, especially with like, a lot of people. It shuts down the caterpillar effect for sure. That's why there's traffic, by the way. Yes, same thing. That's why the traffic exists because of that little effect. That's exactly true. You know, one guy going, the reaction time, you know.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, that's, and it's essentially the same reason why the new move will work, because people are unfamiliar, you know, cause,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You know, you, you have a certain attack or whatever, and then the more people know about that attack, the harder it is to, to be successful with it. And then you find some new variation that not, that not everyone, uhm, knows. That's, I mean the footlock game kind of was like that too for a little bit. Uh, and then after a while,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] All those fundamentals, which were essentially the early version of the, of the move. Yeah. Whatever. Um, that's still there, but we got this new unrevealed move that's getting everyone cause they're unfamiliar. It's like a,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah. Yeah. It's like skipping your workout and saying, well, I need to rest and like recover today. Yeah. Kind of the same thing.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Exposure. Yeah, Gradual Exposure Therapy. Yeah. Graduated.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And is he talking about like having a, a standard that's like a, like a symbol? It's a flag, yea yea. So an actual flag. Yep, an actual flag. This is where I'm at.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So that you know the general's watching kind of thing. I guess that wouldn't really apply to your situation, right? No, no, no.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Brad, you know what that is? That's like, that's like small picture versus big picture. Small picture is like yeaah.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Cause you just look at it as yourself, right? You get your bubble in your head, you're like, I wouldn't pillage if it was death. I wouldn't pillage. And that's how you're looking at it. But no, big picture is like, apply that to everyone. Apply it to the whole community. Exactly right. If you tell on this guy pillaging, you just sentenced him to death. If you tell on him, if you turn him in or whatever, that's what you did.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, let me use it as a little workout. Little metcon. We gotta move all these boxes upstairs.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Let me use it as a workout. It kind of makes it more enjoyable as well. But at the same time, you get the results of a little workout right there. Here, let me ask you this about that, when you said you didn't agree with the unnecessary works. So what about push-ups as punishment? For example, or exercise.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, like only the cool people do burpees. That's what they see dad doing burpees, dad doing, you know, these whatever exercises, only cool people do it. I kind of push hard on that too, but it's unfair. But no, the question is though, in the military, in the military, not kids.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But that wasn't just a natural result of you missing, missing. Did you impose that? It was imposed.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] See, but that's, to me, and this is me thinking, whatever, 10 seconds about it, that seems like...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That makes perfect sense. In fact, that seems like a cool little strategy because in real life that's how it works. You miss the bus, you ride the bus to school. You miss the bus, you're walking to school. Or riding your bike, whatever.