[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So, no, I'm happy because I know that if I would have won one Grand Prix, I would have been annoyed that I didn't win more. It's good to strive for perfection, but if your strive for perfection ends up in never being satisfied with anything anymore, then you go a little bit too far. Let's talk about your level.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, bearing in mind that in those days we didn't have internet. We all had like the traditional media and it was like two main, uh, newspapers in Holland that broadcasted it. There was one was evolved around Rotterdam, uh, the Common Daily is that translated, uh, and then the Telegraph from Amsterdam.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And then we had some other press, general press, uh, that followed it. And we had like two car magazines. Uh, I think we had the public TV channel, one, maybe even two.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But that was it. So, so communication was from a totally different level. Now people can practically, uh,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] There was absolutely no expertise, uh, in, in Holland that, that I ran into that could actually help me. So, uh, I, I was like a pupil that, that had to teach. You know, I had to still learn so much, but then I was, was the one eye in the line of blind.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And I didn't have the patience to wait another year. Ellen Pross, who I raced against in Formula 3, he was patient enough to wait a year and then he went straight to McLaren and he had a chance to do well.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And I probably jumped a little bit too quickly for Shadow thinking like, I've made it to Formula One. I drive there for one year to get experience.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But you don't want to have the experience of losing races with a bad team.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Because there's many of them. And Alio, in those days, there was no junior programs. There were no factory, big factory teams. Well, there probably were, but there were fewer factories teams. And the whole structure and the institute to educate young drivers.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now we have the Ferrari Academy, we have the, well, you name it, there's loads of academies and junior programs, and I think Lewis was probably the first one to be picked up at the age of 12, if I'm not mistaken, by Ron Dennis.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So, so that was wonderful and, and, uh, and good for him because I was already following then and, and I really thought like, wow, you know, there's somebody special.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But you didn't have that then, and Elio was one of these guys that was already quick in karting, he immediately was quick in Formula 3, so I grew up with him through that time, so to me it was not a surprise that he was quick.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Elio was such a classic. He was such a beautiful person. I never forget that picture.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Totally the opposite from the bestial racing scene and he sat there and then he played some classic music.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And that was a picture that will always stay with me, like from Elio, apart from him being the great racing driver. So, and I really thought like, well, that was such a beautiful sight of Elio. And it's a shame that I wasn't mature enough at that time.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] To enjoy his company, because I think he was a beautiful person, but I only started to realize that when I was late, at that moment you only talk to each other based on what's behind the comma, you know, are you one tenth quicker or slower? So that's all you're thinking about at that age.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Well, it was surprising. It was, uh, that whole period, let's say the first half year of 1980.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Has, has educated me, me incredible in a lot of ways because uhm, a little bit of the background. I started the year with Gunter Schmid at ATS and he thought we had Heineken of a sponsor.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But we didn't have Heineken of a sponsor. So at, uh, Wolfgang Kupp was the manager from, from, uh, ATS at that moment.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And at some point he got very nervous and he said like, like, well, I don't care. We said like, we don't have Heineken as a sponsor. Yeah, well, whatever you can come up with. If you don't have Heineken, fine, but come up with something else. Because Gunther Schmidt is going to kill me if I tell him that you have nothing. I said, yeah, but we do have nothing. Oh my god, so.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I said to my manager in Holland, I said, let's go to Gunther. So we went to Germany, we sat down and we told Gunther like, listen Gunther, we have no money, zero. So he fell off his chair and he thought like, oh my God, because the car was ready, everything was prepared. He invested his money in it and we had no money.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So, very embarrassing for us, of course, but also a difficult situation. Then I said to Gunther, I said, okay,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Why not do it like this? We, uh, we just make a deal for a hundred thousand per race in those days. You spoke about that kind of money. So let's say like I do two races and we make an agreement for two hundred thousand, uh, uh, Deutschmarks, dollars, whatever it was.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, 200,000 and uhm, if after two races I haven't found a sponsor, that's it. I leave the team, I owe you 200. Uh, I haven't got that now, but for the rest of my life I can see myself earning that.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So I will pay you, I don't know how long it will take me, but that's it. So after two races I had no money, I was out, the car was pretty bad because we, uh, we were running two cars, a two car team and ATS wasn't ready for that.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So the equipment was pretty bad and then, uh, I fell out of Formula One. I just went to South Africa just to watch the race and to see if a miracle would happen.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] A miracle didn't happen, but an accident happened with Mark Suhrer. In front of my eyes, I was watching the practice, he crashed and he broke both his legs. So he couldn't drive the next race.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So all of a sudden, it was the other way around, where I was the only one experienced with the team and the car and everything, so I was the easiest one to say like, okay, let Jan drive the car again.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So he asked me if I wanted to drive. Well, of course I did. But in the meanwhile, there was the new car designed by Gustav Brunner.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Mark broke his legs on Friday, and I did an attempt in the other car on the next day to qualify. I missed one tenth or something.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So, here I am, I come back from South Africa, trying, you know, everything to get the speed out of the car, and I don't qualify. Three weeks later, I'm in Long Beach, and I do exactly the same thing I've been doing for years, and all of a sudden, I was, uh, all the time I was in the free practice, I was P4, and ended up P8.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But then qualifying was there, and in those days, if you were the quickest Twyver team, you got the soft tires. So I got the same tires as the front runners.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So I was doing the same thing what I've been doing for years and then I get past that pit straight and I see P1 on my board, you know, in Formula 1 after being in there for like 17, 18 months and I thought


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I'm never gonna doubt myself anymore, ever. Because I did exactly the same thing as I did three weeks before. Now I have a good car and I'm running up front. So I promised myself like, doubt is a total waste of time. But was it a particularly clean lap?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Spontaneously, hey, you just act, you don't think. Silverstone, I always found difficult. You have so much time to think on that straight, like I'm gonna take, uh, take it flat. So, so, you can think too much.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But Long Beach is just all responsive, like downhill, slalom, skiing. You just do, you don't think.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, so it was a lap that went very well. Uh, I knew it was a good lap and then I came sort of onto the pit straight and you went over a bit of a hump on the apex. I obviously went a bit too quick and I knew I was going to hit the wall but I didn't care. So I just brushed the wall.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The, the, the left rear. Uh, so that, that was a good lap. But the next day I paid the price for it because, uh, 200 meters, uh, after the start I broke my drive shaft, the one that I damaged myself probably. Uh, Roy Topps was our mechanic and he's, he's a fantastic mechanic.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But that was an experience going from hero to zero.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, on, on Sunday morning at breakfast in one of those typical diners in America, I opened the papers and, uh, the Ferraris were not having a good time. And the headline was, maybe it was a little local paper, but it was a big line for me. Uh, and, and my favorite still, and it said, Lammers leaves the Ferraris red faced.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Well, I already, my first Grand Prix, I was always in Argentina in 79 and I always looked up to people like Niki Lauda, Mario Andretti, and Amazon Fittipaldi, they all, Niki I didn't know too well.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So, so, but those people were icons for me. So my first race, I was next to Niki Lauda on the grid. Not because I was so quick, but because he had a bad car. But still, I didn't have the results really to be able to enjoy it completely.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Not immediately then, I'm sure I got their attention, but the year before I was already 14th with The Shadow, so I qualified very well. Usually I was struggling to qualify, so street racing was my thing, I guess.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] My best period I had was in 1980, so first we had Long Beach, so the speed was good, the race was history. Then we had Monaco later on and I feel that there also I would have been able to qualify in the second row and maybe even better than that because I really had a fantastic lap.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And then the last, the last sector you run into traffic, then we all remember like, oh, you could have had pole there. I had a lap like that. So the first two sectors were really very, very good. They felt brilliant. But then I came around to the, uh, the swimming pool and then there was, uh, I believe KK Rosberg.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And the father of Nico, he was there driving slowly, so my lap was gone, so I ended up being 13th on the grid.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And then in the race, there was the accident where, uh, the Tyrol just, just somersaulted through the year. Yeah, with Derek Daly. And that accident just took place. I waited until all the mess was settled.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And then I thought, okay, now I can drive by. And as I drove by, um, Riccardo Patrese just came, uh, reversing out of that pile up.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And I could follow him, uh, so the speed was there. I think later I saw that I had like the fourth quickest time in the race. So the speed was there, but it's something that, that evaporates and nobody will ever know.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Jodie, I believe, I was P6, I was catching Jodie and driving away from Jill, or the other way around, I can't quite remember, then my gearbox broke.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And then, uh, we had Spain, uh, I qualified, I think tenth, but I was sixth after the first lap.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Behind Alan Jones, Alan had softer tyres than I had, I knew that. So he disappears out of sight in the beginning. But later I caught him up and I was right on his gearbox with the harder tyre, so Heather was the right choice.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And then my brakes, uh, uh, were gone. So, uh, I had to pedal to the bottom.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So I had to go in the pits, and Alan Jones wins the race. You know, so, so those were good races, and then to finalize that story, uh, I think it was 81 in South Africa, where Nelson was leading, ehm, Elio de Angelis was running second, and I went from 10th to 3rd on the first lap.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I was about to pass Elio on the second lap and we touched and my wheel was gone. So there I was running top three speed. So those were my good races in Formula One.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeaah, I think Mark was always going to come back, because Gunther Schmidt had an image of being a very German-German, you know. And like, like, I want not to have this anymore, that's literally...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So, so people sometimes made fun of him, but he was a great guy and he was straightforward, he was honest. So, uh, I think that was the proof that he just promised Sür that he could get back and, uh, although we were doing good.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He got his seat back, and I went to Ensign, thinking that I could rule the world now, of course, and then I was back on the grid again, so.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, well, that was really maybe a bit from desperation, because in 1982, uh, I think the Theodore was a very good car, only, uh, I don't think we did enough mileage to make it reliable, eh? That was Gary Anderson.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, and there was Tony Southgate, so people that know the business. So I'm sure that if, if we would have had a little bit more time and a bit more budget, then, then, uh, that car could have become good. And there were signs of it being good because in, in the Monaco, the first day, we didn't have any tires.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And, and maybe there was like 30 people trying to qualify in those days. And then, uh, during qualifying, I was 21st, just missed out by a smidge. So the car was, was really good. But, you know, you never know how good you are because you're always driving at your own limit, uh, and you think that's it. But, but yeah.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] There's no other driver getting in there and proving that there's still more speed there.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So I did the best that I could with the things that I have available. I think that also, just from an intellectual point of view, I had to learn a lot. I know that in those days I thought I knew it all, but later on you learned that you never know it all.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Oh, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's proven by my comeback in 1992. I had the opportunity.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, March was, was in lots of trouble with Illmore also. And Henny Vollenberg, uh, Dutch, uh, Dutch guy that is used to running a transport company.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And with a transport company, you look, you look at the digits behind the comma, uh, because that's, that's very detailed planning. And, and, uh, uh, so he was economically, he was a great guy. So I think he did a lot of damage control and made, uh, March last, uh, I think at least a half a year longer.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Then, then they otherwise would have. So I had an opportunity to come back to, uh, to Formula One. Uh, it, it did cost me quite a bit of my private money, everything that I had at that moment actually.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Um, uh, but because it went wrong, uh, we, we paid, uh, Ilmore for the engines and Ilmore just said like, well, thank you. We take that from the account from March of last year. Uh, and so there I was empty handed. So I had a court case of like one week, nine to five in the morning in London.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Well, that can mean that I'm very determined and that I think later from my sports car career we can probably say that I'm a long distance runner, you know. You can also say that I catch on slowly. So, so, yeah.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] When I'm 90, uh, I don't want to sort of like sit there in an old people's home and thinking like maybe I should have tried it one more. So I just did it. And I also think, uh, very often now you get the question like, like, you know, how do we get involved in racing parents that have no,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] If you do something, people will help you. If you do something with all that you have in you, whatever little it might be, but if you do something, people will help you, but people won't do it for you.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So, so you have to take the initiative, eh, as a metaphor. If you start the 24 hours of Le Mans with only one hour of fuel, then during the first hour you tell this to people and then soon you will find somebody who will sponsor the second hour. So, so it's like a marathon, it starts with the first step.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Find somebody within your area and if you have any talent, your biggest talent should probably be to enthuse those people around you that can help you further. You sound like a hustler.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Ergonomically, uh, they, they become much better. Uh, first we, we had, uh, I think the carbon chassis, of course, and soon after the carbon brakes. The carbon brakes meant that you could brake so late, if you had to shift down with an H-pattern, if you had to shift down from six to second.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You simply wouldn't make it. I remember testing with Toyota with a sports car in Eastern Creek in Australia and you had to sort of brake, shift down and be back on the throttle and it was really the shifting that limited your speed. You couldn't do it quick enough.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And so for that reason, the sequential boxers came later on the flipper system. So it became more and more comfortable. You remember the pictures of Senna and Mansell and Piquet with the bandage on their hands from the blisters.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So, if you didn't have to do the shifting anymore, that was a great advantage.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The headrests all meant that it became more and more and more comfortable, so, uh. And much quicker? Were the cars much quicker? Also, yeaah, but you could get to that speed because it was more accessible because of the comfort.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So it wasn't like weightlifting anymore, it was really all about the driving.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So if it was a bit too hot, you put it a bit higher. And if your steering gets heavy, you put a bit more power steering. So for me, the last two Le Mans that I did, okay, I was already in my sixties, but for me it was like a walk in the park almost.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, I think it's, it's the, the level of difficulty that's, that is, eh, that's, that's a challenge. And of course, eh, people that climb mountains like the Mount Everest and all that, they, they know that it's, it's all about the challenge. Just the fact that it's so difficult is the, the, yeaah, your challenge, your drive to do it.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You know, I wasn't looking at the bigger picture that together we had to win that race. I was just racing him. I'm not sure if he was racing me also. I have no idea. But that was it. If he went quicker with that same car than me, that's horrible. You know, you don't want that to happen. So you was trying to beat each other's times.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And later on, by the time I was at Jaguar, I was matured a little bit and calmed down a little bit. And with Andy Wallace and Johnny Dumfries, so sad that Johnny passed away like a year and a half ago now.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, so, so if on the Hunodjara straight, uh, I would have just twisted the wheel, I can crash the car, there you go, job done, you, you, you, you lost it on your own. That's so, so from, uh, unfortunately we have too many examples in real life, you know, that on your own, in a destructive way, you can do something, but in a constructive way, if you want to win something,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, either in sports or whatever, you need a team, uh, and you need to work from a team.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So you always have to think, like, like, what can I add to this team? Because ultimately you add to yourself.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And if you're always the go-getter that wants to take and take and take and goes into meeting rooms like what's in it for me, you know, then automatically you take from yourself. And so it's, it's, it's a creative process to create a winning atmosphere and it's, it's an attitude of giving.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Giving all you've got, giving that to the team, and if everybody has that effort, you become that unbeatable team. How long did it take you to realise what you've just described?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Long, long. I realised, uh, it was actually quite a game changer for me. It was, uh, in 85, I was driving Indy cars for Foresight. Very good team. Uh, I was leading the race with not too many laps to go. Uh, and that was in Miami, eh, on that, on that tower on the pole that we know from the pole position.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So on the top I saw my number 33 by coincidence. And I saw 33 on the top and I took a deep breath while I was going flat out to that right corner in Miami, at Tamiami Park.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And I took a deep breath and I thought, ah, I'm back on schedule, you know. So, I was on my way to winning that race, but then I blew it because I break too late. I went in the gravel trap, thought I was going to hit the wall, but it turned out to be white sand. Looking in the sun, I was bracing myself and then there was no impact. I thought, what is this? So, anyway, I lost that race because I screwed up.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And then I, I was immediately, eh, sort of like bought away by Gurney, All American Racers. Fantastic privilege to have raced for Dan Gurney, such an icon and such a great guy and great team.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But he had more passion and ambition than money, uh, so he split up with his teammate and all of a sudden, I was there again. No ride, team was, uh, close to bankrupt and, uh, that was it.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I've been racing for 13 years now and I've tried everything I could. So I'm just going to play golf and I'm going to just enjoy myself. And if somebody thinks that I can actually do something, they will call me. And if that's Formula Ford, I will start all over again. And whoever it is that calls me and recognize that I can actually do something, I will drive for them. And that's it. And then I will start over. And at the same time, I thought like, well,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I did a lot of reading. I, uh, read one wonderful book. That's, uh, first I, uh, I read The Silva Mind Control Method. That's all about visualization and meditation and that helped me.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And after that I read a book, Three Magic Words, and, uh, that, that sort of really taught me a lot.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So I didn't have to go all the way back to Formula Ford. I was happy with that. I drove for them and I had a time where I drove better than ever before and I felt wonderful. So it was a big, big change for me.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That was on a thin wire. That was really on a thin wire because what I've learned also, also in my business communications and, and, uh, speeches, I've learned that, that what is different in business than sport, that in, uh, in business, uh, profit is a given.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And loss is the exception. At least I hope so for the people in business. Because, you know, you won't last if you lose. If you sell a product, you earn money on that. So, in business, profit is the given and the exception is losing. In sport, losing is the rule.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And winning is the exception, because no matter who you take, whether it's Max Lewis, uh, Messi, Ronaldo, Manchester United, Barcelona, uh, Jordan Schumacher, Senna, you name them, they've lost most of their races and matches.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So, so basically you should start, and that's how we started in, in, uh, uh, in Le Mans in 1988. I told the guys like, listen, we are not going to finish this race.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So they were surprised, I said no, the gearbox is going to break.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Also in sports your attitude should be like okay.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I am going to lose this match. I am going to win and lose this race. Unless...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So it's really to make yourself sharp and to not underestimate your task. That's how we started Le Mans. Because we know in those days if you lose second gear and you bypass it, you go from first to third and see how far you get. I said let's not wait.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Until that happens and then we're going to drive very careful. I said, let's start the race knowing like this box is going to break unless... And was it a weakness? Was the gearbox? Always. For most of the teams, the weakest link was the gearbox. So, so when, when third gear actually broke.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Raoul Bouzel got out and he was doing, undoing his shoelaces and he said, okay, that's it for me.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I said, what? He says, yeaah, car broke down. Oh, what happened? Well, I selected third gear was gone, fourth gear gone, fifth gear gone, and that was it. So then I got in the car for the last two hours.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] This is the sister car. The sister car, yeaah, yeaah. And we were leading, so, uh, so I get in the car, I get to Tete Rouge, and, uh, at some point, I think we must have been taking that in second, I think, but I select the third gear, and it, uh, it broke, so it was gone, free-wheeling, I put in fourth,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, and it connected and then, you know, having sort of Raoul's story in my mind, I thought I'm never going to touch this lever. We finished the race and for the, for the technos under the listeners, uh, the, the secondary shaft was split in the middle.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So if I would have changed gear once, it would have just totally gone to pieces. So we finished the race. How much of the race was there still to go?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I think about one and a half hour, in fourth gear.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So on the radio, uh, I got the message, like, okay, my lead was shrinking, like, like mad, of course. So then, uh, Kevin, who was on the radio in those days, he said to me like, well, eh, he's so far behind now, so don't go much slower.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And then I said, well, I have a little secret here. Uh, and then he said like, yeah, we don't want to know Jan, we don't want to know. I said, you're right. You don't want to know. So I kept it to myself because you know, uh, the scanners would have to, I didn't want to speed up the Porsches. That's fantastic.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] What a tremendous moment for you. After everything you've been through, I feel so incredibly privileged, eh, because


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Absolutely, I mean, I think after 88, they were more like brothers to me than anything else. Still, I have a great contact with Andy. And, and uhm, yeaah, it's wonderful. We don't see each other often, but like with good friendships.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Eh, just, just, uh, his friendliness. He's such a good, good person and, and, uh, he's such a good friend and, and, uh, so much, just, just...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeaah, really friendship and sympathy. Uh, he's such a great guy, and he was a fantastic father. You know, I think he's the best father you can have, and for the people that he loved and his friends, he was all ears, and uh, no, just a great guy, and I really can't sum him up in words, but uh,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But particularly with Mario, uh, yeaah, Mario is such, I mean, he's the guy, you know, he's just such a cool guy, and if you look at him, if you would have to tell people, like, what does a racing driver look like? Mario Andretti, that's the man, you know, so you would draw him out like that.


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[Assistant] He's such a nice guy that he can talk like for 20 minutes with his wife about the new nail polish she's got. So he can switch very easy from very small trivial issues and small talk to like big things in motor racing. So now he's just a lovely guy yeaah.


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[Assistant] I'm not sure, I think it was, he was 58 at the time. I don't think you lose your skills after driving, but the drive in your mind, that, uh, to be quick.


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[Assistant] So I recall that we were testing after the Grand Prix in Monza and with the long straights of course, helped by the long straights. I think there we were like two or three tenths quicker than the lap record of Senna the day before. And we'll end our little chat.


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[Assistant] So, so we are very proud that we've put something on the road last year, uh, that is also inspiring to other organizers. And we try to, to, to be, uh, of course, like, like, uh, neutral, uh, from an environment, uh,


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[Assistant] Point of view, we wanted to be the most sustainable Grand Prix on the calendar. And I think close, we are probably close with Canada.


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[Assistant] Uh, so we're very proud of that, but also the festival type and the entertainment type. Uh, like, like the maximum effort we make to make sure that those people go home on Sunday and they had like, like a bucket list event. That's, that's our intention.


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[Assistant] So, so we try to have a very empathic view, uh, to the spectators with organizing the event. We see that FOM is very happy with that and, and, uh, sometimes, uh, ask us even to look over the shoulders with other promoters, and we try to share the experience.


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[Assistant] So, uh, no, we're very, very proud and happy that we've been able to, to not, uh, uh, drain energy from FOM, but that we've been able to add a little bit of value or energy to FOM. Who would have thought that? And that's only because of a lot of individuals focus on their own job and then you look up and you see what you created together. So that's wonderful.


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[Assistant] So I think the marriage with FOM looks to be good. They are happy with us. At least we have that impression. And we are extremely happy here. Well, I hope on Sunday we've been able to top last year's event.


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[Assistant] You're handing that token, uh, basically it comes down to it that last year we've been able to recycle 70% of, uh, of all the cups and we're trying to, to collect 100%, uh, so, so we can recycle everything and have no waste.


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[Assistant] Uh, for the, for the electricity for example, we can't rely on the normal network that we have, so we need generators.


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[Assistant] But those generators all run on biofuel, uh, we have, uh, uh, made smart grids. So rather than having one generator in a corner seven and one in five, et cetera, we have smart grids. So we have less generators and more cables if you like. So, so there's lots of smart things like that.


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[Assistant] I have to say, and this is an initiative from, from FOM, uh, rather than, than Holland, I, I like the robot cam, the robot cam in the, in the paddock.


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[Assistant] To just, eh, say something in the camera or wave or whatever. But that's a live stream to the Children Hospital, the Maxima Medical Centre in Utrecht.


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[Assistant] And that's a children's hospital. So those kids, you know, give me goosebumps. And those kids are washing. And all the drivers that go by can say something there or do something funny or whatever. So that's one of the best inventions from an entertainment point of view.


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[Assistant] September the 28th, 1990. A racing driver lies motionless on a track in Spain.


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[Assistant] Martin Donnelly has been thrown from his car after a 160 mile an hour crash.


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[Assistant] Racing can be dangerous. Mistakes, or in Martin's case mechanical failures, can have severe consequences. But until that day, Martin hadn't given that much thought.


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[Assistant] Martin was determined to recover from those injuries and return to racing, and he tried everything.


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[Assistant] Welcome to F1 Beyond the Grid with me, Tom Clarkson.


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[Assistant] You might have seen that shocking image of Martin lying on the racetrack after his life altering crash, which happened during qualifying for the 1990 Spanish Grand Prix.


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[Assistant] It's featured in the movie Senna because Ayrton himself rushed to the scene to help. He and Martin were friends, boys from Belfast and Brazil who met in England while racing in the junior categories.


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[Assistant] Back then in the 1980s, Martin was part of a group of young, quick drivers that included Damon Hill, Johnny Herbert and Mark Blundell. They were buddies, but they were also rivals, all desperate to make it to Formula 1.


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[Assistant] Martin made it thanks to his speed in junior categories and support from team owner, Eddie Jordan.


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[Assistant] The deals he did and didn't do shaped his career. His time in Formula One, first with Arrows in 1989 and then with Lotus, was short. While he recovered from his injuries, he saw his friends win races and championships. As you'll hear, things could have been very different.


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[Assistant] But Martin's is an incredible story and he's never stopped racing. I hope you enjoy our conversation.


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[Assistant] Martin, it is fantastic to have you on the show. It really is. Now your Formula One career was tragically cut short in your first season. The Spanish Grand Prix scene of that career ending accident was round 14 of 16. Let's talk about the season up until that point. How pleased were you with how things were going?


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[Assistant] And was EJ the one that did the deal with Lotus for 1990?


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[Assistant] Martin, if he was sat here, would he agree with you?


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[Assistant] You out-qualified your teammate Derek Warwick six times in 13 races.


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[Assistant] Now, your first season of Formula One, Derek had been in the sport for a long time.


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[Assistant] My read on that is it was a good job by the rookie.


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[Assistant] What was the biggest thing you learned during those opening 13 races of 1990?


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[Assistant] What about that year's Lotus, the 102? I remember before the start of the season, Rupert Mannering claiming that the team was going to score 40 points. How quickly


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[Assistant] Did you realize that was an overambitious target?


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[Assistant] Well, and let's not forget that wine the clock back just what two or three years and Senna, Ayrton Senna had vetoed having.


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[Assistant] I think it was a complicated one, wasn't it? But he was vetoed by Senna, so he was clearly respected and quick. Did you share data?


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[Assistant] Let's talk about your accident now. It's been more than 30 years, 28th of September, 1990. You said that the car should have performed well at Haaretz, so you were quite confident coming into the weekend. Yeah, I think, uhm,


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[Assistant] Right. So even when it was all working, were you getting a lot of flex in the chassis?


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[Assistant] So when you see pictures of you lying on the tarmac there in Hereth, legs all at strange angles,


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[Assistant] Those two occasions were at Sid Watkins Royal London Hospital. And for those listening, Sid of course was the Formula One doctor at the time. And so the first time, were you dead on the ascent?


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[Assistant] How much should you thought seriously about the dangers of motorsport? Had you ever seriously thought that something like this could happen? You'd seen Johnny Herbert have his accident at Brands Ash in 1988 for example.


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[Assistant] What about your recuperation then? How many operations?


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[Assistant] It's an unbelievable story, but so at what point did you realize, no, I'm not going to be racing in Formula One again.


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[Assistant] You can't deny the power of a good night's sleep. You can adopt healthy screen time habits and have the best night time routine possible for your schedule. But if your mattress is uncomfortable, then a deep restorative sleep is going to be hard to find. And as someone who spends most of the year jumping from hotel to hotel,


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[Assistant] It's been a joy to try out an Emma mattress. I'll never return to a standard spring-loaded mattress again.


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[Assistant] Find your best sleep with EMA product and test the products up to 200 nights risk free. Save 5% on top of all offers at emma-sleep.co.uk forward slash grid. That's emma-sleep.co.uk forward slash grid.


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[Assistant] Martin, you mentioned Senna several times when you were talking about the accident. Tell us a little bit about your relationship with him because I think it's fair to say he was closer to you than most drivers.


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[Assistant] Martin, even in 82 and 83, could you see that he was the real deal? You knew where he was going.


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[Assistant] So was Senna pleased when you arrived on the Formula One scene?


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[Assistant] You talk about the Rat Pack, don't you? There was, uh, so much English-British talent, wasn't there, uhm, around at the time. And when I think of the Rat Pack, who are we talking about? We're talking about Damon Hill, we're talking about


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[Assistant] Derek Warwick yourself, Martin Brundle, Perry McCarthy, Johnny Herbert, Jonathan Palmer, Steve Soper, Julian Bailey. Yes, Julian Bailey, of course. I think you guys even still hook up for lunch now, don't you? Johnny Dumfries, you know, all good guys.


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[Assistant] Describe the atmosphere among you at the time. We're talking mid-80s, aren't we? You're all ambitious. Fierce rivals, fierce rivals.


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[Assistant] Well, what about your rivalry with Damon Hill in particular? You were F3 teammates and, I mean, come on, who is quicker?


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[Assistant] Yeah, that was a third in F3000, despite doing only a handful of races.


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[Assistant] Do you feel that as the car's got more powerful, it suited your driving style more?


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[Assistant] You said right at the start of our chat that there were three people that got you into Formula One.


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[Assistant] Your dad, Frank Nolan, and Eddie Jordan. You really stick by EJ. You think you couldn't have done it without him. Cause it seems to me there was a lot of momentum with you at that point in your career and you might have made it anyway. Or am I doing EJ a disservice?


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[Assistant] Tell me more about your Grand Prix debut now, because, uh, of course that wasn't 1990, that actually came the previous year, French Grand Prix 89. What triggered the thought in my mind was you mentioning John Olesi, because you both made your debut


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[Assistant] At the same race. Now you were in the Arrows. I was great and furry.


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[Assistant] What might have been had Martin not crashed at Jerez? There's no doubt in my mind that he was quick enough to succeed in Formula One. He had the talent and the determination to win races. But it's not that which sets him apart because many people have won races in Formula One. What makes Martin Donnelly unique?


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[Assistant] Is the courage and the positivity he's shown in adversity. What he went through in the aftermath of his crash is gut wrenchingly awful. Yet he remained positive and he's an inspiration to us all.


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[Assistant] Martin, many thanks for your time and for sharing your remarkable story. And if you want to keep up to speed with what Martin's doing now, why don't you take a look at his website, donnellytrackacademy.com.


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[Assistant] And please send in your thoughts and stories about Martin. Did you watch him race? Did you ever bump into him at Ed's cafe near Snetterton?


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[Assistant] Let me know at Tom Clarkson F1 on Twitter or use the hashtag F1B on the grid.


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[Assistant] As a Mercedes fan, I've always had an admiring hate for Christian. He's so incredible at what he does that you end up hating how good he is. Well, that's one way of looking at it, Will. Thanks for the note. And I'm sure you're not the only Mercedes fan who has a grudging respect for Christian Hornet.


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[Assistant] And what about this from NavF1? Christian took over a team that was absolutely nowhere and made it one of the most dominant forces and known names in Formula One. Alongside Mui and Marco of course. Love him or hate him, he's a genius.


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[Assistant] Well thanks for getting in touch now. There's no doubt that Red Bull's record in Formula One speaks for itself. 87 wins and nine world titles and counting.


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[Assistant] All of these top guys in Formula One have incredible work ethics and are really impressive.


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[Assistant] Well, we'll leave it there for this week. Thank you to everyone who got in touch. I read all of your messages and don't forget to give me your thoughts on Martin Donnelly. I can't wait to hear what you have to say about him.


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[Assistant] And if you need something else to listen to now, how about our episodes with people Martin mentioned, Eddie Jordan, Damon Hill, Tommy Byrne, Derek Warwick, and Johnny Herbert. There are links to all of those interviews in the episode description.


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[Assistant] For now though, thanks for listening and we'll catch up again next week. F1 Beyond the Grid is produced by Formula One and Audioboom Studios. Until next time, keep it flat out.


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[Assistant] He grew up in a rural village in Romania. He's now an F1 team principal with decades of experience. Otmar Safnau's story is unique.


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[Assistant] Otmar's led teams to podiums and victories. He's now trying to build a team that can win again and keep winning.


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[Assistant] Hello everyone, it's Tom Clarkson here with F1 Beyond the Grid. In 2023, Alpine team principal Otmar Sapnauer has seen his drivers crash into each other in Australia and Budapest. He's seen Esteban Ocon stand on the Monaco podium and he's seen Pierre Gasly arrive and start to thrive.


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[Assistant] He's also seen Fernando Alonso and Oscar Piastri, drivers who once wore Alpine Blue, achieve stunning results at other teams.


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[Assistant] Je ne regrette rien, Otman might say, and we know from Drive to Survive that he's been learning French. So no regrets, just a determination to help the team rediscover the winning feeling they've known in the past, most recently with Okon in Hungary 2021.


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[Assistant] This is a wide-ranging conversation that deals with everything from F1 politics to team culture. It was recorded before Laurent Rossi was replaced as Alpine CEO.


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[Assistant] But Otmar and I talk at length about the management of Alpine, and as he says, on the F1 side of things, the buck stops with him and that's just the way he likes it.


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[Assistant] Omar, great to have you on Beyond The Grid again. How are you?


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[Assistant] But we're now, Otmar, thank you very much for inviting me to your house in Oxford. I feel like we're in a very Formula One area. A lot of F1 people live near you. Do you ever hook up for dinners with your neighbours?


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[Assistant] When people talk about motorsport valley in the context of Formula One in the UK, what they really mean is this bit of Oxford, isn't it?


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[Assistant] It's really lovely, but as we've already said, it's been five years. There's a lot to talk about, but let's start with the here and now, how things are going at Alpine.


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[Assistant] And first and foremost, how's your French coming on? Anyone who saw you on Drive to Survive in the latest series, je m'appelle Otmar. How's it going?


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[Assistant] But how would you sum up then the first half of 2023?


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[Assistant] Is Endstone performing as well as it did last year when you finished fourth in the Constructors Championship?


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[Assistant] What about the power unit? Do you feel you're lacking a little bit?


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[Assistant] Let's talk about some of the highs and the highest point so far has of course been Esteban's P3 in Monaco. But can we start talking about the day before?


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[Assistant] Qualifying in Monaco. Everyone was eulogising about the Q3 laps of Fernando Alonso and Max Verstappen, but I would argue strongly that Ocon's Q3 lap was every bit as good as theirs. Me too. And you know, you're not as biased as I am.


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[Assistant] Was he bouncing off the walls like a pinball? Inqually.


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[Assistant] I also want to talk about Piers Q4 before the penalties in Spain. Do you feel that that was the moment when it all started to click for him?


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[Assistant] And what about Esteban? You've worked with him for many years at Force India before.


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[Assistant] Whereas what back in the force India days brilliantly fast, but it was all.


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[Assistant] So different decisions, better decisions, better decisions. So when we saw him in checko tripping over each other in the force India era, you think he, that wouldn't happen now? I think that.


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[Assistant] That would happen less now. Now a lot has been made, in the press at least, of Pierre and Esteban's long and sometimes tense relationship. How would you sum it up? What are your observations after six months?


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[Assistant] Do they communicate directly in a debrief or are we in Senna Prost territory or Hamilton Rosberg territory where it was only the engineers that would communicate?


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[Assistant] And what about after Melbourne, when they, they crashed, you know, right at the end. And of course it was into each other.


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[Assistant] But does the fact that you used to race help you in any way to communicate with the drivers? Do you feel like there are situations where the fact that you've raced help you understand?


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[Assistant] Talking of judgment calls, there has been some controversy away from the racetrack, if you like, at Alpine this year, when, you know, we've just discussed the collision in Australia, no points there.


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[Assistant] We go to Baku three, four weeks later and it's a difficult weekend for the team and in Miami.


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[Assistant] Laurent Rossi, the CEO of Alpine, goes to the press and he berates the team publicly, calling it amateurish and full of dilettantes. You've had a few months to think about that now. What are your reflections on that period?


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[Assistant] To motivate a team, probably not. But you say you understand it. You understand why he went to the media.


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[Assistant] Had he spoken to you about that pressure prior to that?


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[Assistant] You say you understand it, but were you disappointed?


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[Assistant] So it's, it's a coincidence that the very next race we go to, you have your best race weekend as a team of the year so far.


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[Assistant] But for me, was I surprised? Not really. Have those comments from Laurel changed your relationship with him?


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[Assistant] Do you believe in Laurel Rossi's 100 race plan? Which takes us to 2024. He wants to be in a position to challenge for victories next season.


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[Assistant] Omar, one of the things you said earlier was that you know how Aston Martin have made the step that they have. Now, taken at face value, they've gone to Red Bull, taken Dan Fallows, who is Adrian Newey's number two, and 18 months later, here we are with a car that's very competitive.


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[Assistant] How many people do you need to hire to make that difference?


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[Assistant] And what about the facilities in Enstone? You say that you've got a new manufacturing facility coming on stream. How far away are you from the Aston Martin Technology Campus, where you were before? Is that now?


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[Assistant] I mean, is that now the gold standard, what they've done in Silverstone?


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[Assistant] And is this where the 200 million euro cash injection, if you like, that the team has had from investors, including Hollywood superstar Ryan Reynolds, is this how you're going to spend that cash?


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[Assistant] We need a little bit of that too. Can we just investigate that a little bit more because I know other teams are banging this drum as well. For people who don't know, what is the capex number now and what do you think a reasonable figure is going forward?


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[Assistant] You need five teams to agree to increase the capex expenditure. Do you think you're going to find five teams?


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[Assistant] So we've spoken about Endstone. What about Vierry-Châtillon in Paris, which is where the power units are made? Is that where it needs to be? When you look at the money being spent at Red Bull powertrains, for example, does money need to be spent there as well?


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[Assistant] It seems unfair to compare you to Aston Martin because there are so many parallels. It's where you came from before you spent 10 years at the team.


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[Assistant] 12, 12, you showed me 12 years at the team. Sorry, I can't count. Um, and of course it's where Fernando Alonso, who was an Alpine last year, he went there as well. We've talked about drivers.


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[Assistant] But I did also want to ask you, is Alpine missing the experience of Fernando Alonso this year?


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[Assistant] Fernando triggered the driver market moves in Hungary, uh, where we've just been last year.


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[Assistant] But Alonso openly admits that he operates on the dark side. It's a quote he's come out with. Having worked with him for a few years now, would you agree with him? Yea, I don't know what he means by the dark side, but, uh,


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[Assistant] You can't argue with that. Equally, when you saw Oscar Piastri finishing fourth at Silverstone a few weeks back, were you surprised?


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[Assistant] But knowing him as you do, you're not surprised that he has the ability to produce the performance that he did itself.


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[Assistant] I'm sorry to drag it up because so much has been said and written about what happened with Oscar and McLaren and the tug of war. Are you confident that that will never happen again in terms of losing one of your young drivers? Cause you've got some really good guys now coming through in, in Jack Dewan and Victor Martins. Are you confident that you've got them under lock and key?


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[Assistant] Now, you've been involved in Formula One for what is it, 25 years? More than 25 years. What would you say has been your most satisfying Formula One season to date?


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[Assistant] Oh crikey, BAR when you, when you finish second in the Constructors Championship. Really? Okay.


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[Assistant] 2020, that's the year that I had in mind. So I was surprised to hear you say 2000.


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[Assistant] But you didn't win. No. As you say, but, but 2020 Checo wins a race in Sakia. We had that brilliant Lance Stroll. From last to


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[Assistant] Lance was third. And then of course that year as well, you had Lance strolls pole position in Turkey as well.


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[Assistant] How can you achieve that in a team that has, okay, it was owned by Lawrence Stroll at the time, but it was still very small in comparison to the people that were the regular front runners.


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[Assistant] Now talking of management layers, at least from the outside, it looks like there has been another layer added in the last few weeks with the announcement that Bruno Fammin is fronting all of Alpine's motorsport programs now. How does that impact you and the Formula One team?


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[Assistant] The structure of a Formula One team. Some, I'm thinking of Mercedes and Red Bull, you have a team principal and a CEO in one person in Toto Wolff and Christian Horner. Others, look at what they're doing at AlphaTowery now, where you have a CEO and a team principal coming in. What do you think is the best balance?


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[Assistant] And that is different to finishing 4th in the Constructor's Jump.


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[Assistant] It's just a relentless job, it's a relentless sport isn't it, there's pressure, pressure all the time.


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[Assistant] Do you ever stop and reflect on your time as a child in communist Romania and think just how far removed your current job is, your current life is?


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[Assistant] Had you not moved as a family at the age, when you were eight to Detroit, what do you think you would have ended up doing?


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[Assistant] Do you think that upbringing gives you perspective that a lot of people in this sport don't have?


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[Assistant] It's been brilliant to catch up. We mustn't leave it five years until we do this again. Thanks Tom.


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[Assistant] Topmar's story is an extraordinary one, which began in Romania and took a detour via Detroit and ended up with him in Formula 1.


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[Assistant] If you want to hear more about his early life and career, have a listen to his first appearance on Beyond the Grid in December 2018 when he discusses his journey to the pinnacle of motorsport at length.


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[Assistant] It's always good to speak to Otmar. No topic is off limits, he tackles everything head on and he's done that here, be it his revealing comments about the Alpine power unit or his thoughts on Laura Rossi's outburst in Miami.


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[Assistant] He's happy to discuss it all. Otmar, many thanks for your time and see you soon.


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[Assistant] So what do you think about what Otmar had to say there? Do you think Formula 1 teams should act like pirates? Will Alpine have the fourth fastest car by season's end?


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[Assistant] Send me your thoughts and I'll read some of them out at the end of next week's show. Contact me through all the usual means. I'm at Tom Clarkson F1 on Twitter, or you can use the hashtag F1 Beyond The Grid.


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[Assistant] Which brings me onto what you sent in about Mario Illion after last week's show. It was great to hear from him, one of the unsung heroes of our sport.


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[Assistant] Let's start with this from Sid. What an incredible story.


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[Assistant] As someone who enjoys making small F1 models, driveshafts, gearboxes and other small bits at home, listening to Mario's story of making a whole engine blew my mind.


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[Assistant] He clearly comes across as a master of his craft, just like Gordon Murray or Adrian Newey. Sid, thank you for that. Great to hear from you. And I, like you, was blown away by most of what Mario had to say last week. And what about this from Ryan Hellier? Wow.


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[Assistant] Fascinating. I've never heard an interview with Mario before. So fascinating. Thank you for sharing. Ryan, thanks for your message.


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[Assistant] I think it's really important that this podcast, F1 Beyond the Grid, sheds light on people like Mario. He's not a household name, but to get a true appreciation of such a technical sport, you need to know what people like him have achieved in the past. And that's what we've done here. And finally, let's hear from Marzi Grabs.


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[Assistant] F1 engineers, particularly on the engine side, are so inspirational, utterly relentless in the pursuit of perfection.


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[Assistant] We'll leave it there for comments this week and thank you to everyone who wrote in. We love hearing from you and we do read all of your comments, even if your comment doesn't get read out here. Thanks for listening. Please do leave us a review, share the podcast with a friend and follow the show so you get our next episode as soon as it lands.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] See you next week when I'll be joined by another great guest from the world of Formula One. F1 Beyond the Grid is produced by Formula One and Audiaboom Studios. Until next time, keep it flat out.


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[Assistant] It was still an opportunity to race in F1, which was, you know, a dream come true. I'm one out of 1.2 billion people from my country who could say they were a Formula One driver. And actually, that's a big box to take in any driver's career.


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[Assistant] You can't help but be impressed with what Red Bull have done this year. They were in the thick end of the World Championship battle last year. It would have been easy for them to take their eye off the huge regulation changes coming for this season.


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[Assistant] But they did a tremendous job. You know, the car's been competitive, they had a few reliability issues early on. Max seems to be driving at a whole other level, more mature, more calm than he was last year. And, uh, you know, they deserve all the success that they're getting at the moment.


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[Assistant] I remember doing a straight line test, I think maybe two days at Santapod initially, and then went to Barcelona for the test, and if you remember that was the time where Michael Schumacher had stopped


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[Assistant] ECU, traction controllers, all of that was going away. And David Coulthard was in the car with the standard electronics. And uhm, you know, Michael was my childhood hero, one of my childhood heroes. My overriding memory was pulling out of the pit garage for the first time and following Michael out of the pit lane.


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[Assistant] And it was a pretty surreal moment. You know, my dad was there and one of my cousins who came to a lot of my races in F2 and F3 and we were all just slightly awestruck by that. So, uh, it was just a great experience and you know, always thankful to Christian and Helmut for giving me that opportunity.


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[Assistant] Actually not a lot. Uhm, you know, the GP2 cars, and similarly I guess with the F2 now, you know, the power, the downforce, all of that is, is not a million miles off. Where the step up comes is just the size of the team. You know, you'd go to a debrief in GP2 and you'd talk to your race engineer, and there may be a data engineer there.


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[Assistant] Suddenly in F1 you're talking to this army of people in the truck and it was quite daunting because I remember coming back from my first five lap run and actually, uh, Tim Malian who now works with the FIA was the race engineer on the test team at the time. You know, the engineers, they go into this debrief asking you a whole lot of questions and I was like,


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[Assistant] I've literally just done my first five laps in an F1 car. I could give you a bit of feedback, but this is, you know, I'm learning with every lap and I think they appreciate it of course. And you know, that, that was a big difference is just the scale of the teams.


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[Assistant] It was a funny one because we had a lot of issues with the, with the, um, new ECU at the time. I think I only did 26 laps on the first day and then the second day we got a bit more running. But, um, yeah, it was, it was reasonable, I think.


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[Assistant] It was a certainly a big thing in India. You know, we were allowed to film the test and, you know, it was on all the main news channels and we had plenty of press coverage for it.


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[Assistant] And it was at a time, actually, where Vijay had just taken over Force India as well, and they were testing that day, so there was, you know, a lot of momentum building around the, the India story in F1, shall we say. Uhm, so it certainly was helpful. I carried on being a Red Bull junior driver for 2008, uhm, you know, as a bunch of simulator stuff, because they were developing their first sim, actually, at that time.


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[Assistant] And I kept getting really ill in it, which was a bit embarrassing. I went very, I remember going to Christian's office one day really sheepishly saying, really sorry, Christian, but I keep getting ill in the simulator thinking this is going to be really bad news.


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[Assistant] And he started laughing and, uh, basically said that DC had been ill in it, Weber had been ill in it, and even Adrian had got in and didn't feel very well, so I wasn't the only one. I carried on with them doing, um, GP2 for another year in 2008.


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[Assistant] It made a lot of sense for a lot of reasons. Uhm, for whatever reason, we never got around to even doing a test. Which is a bit disappointing, if I'm honest, you know.


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[Assistant] To actually spend time in the McLaren Sim, which they were renting at the time. But it never led to anything. You know, on the whole, it was, it's just a bit disappointing, I think, in the end, not to even have had a...


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[Assistant] A chance to test and prove a ability or lack of.


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[Assistant] He and my dad raced against each other in the early 80s. Uh, he was in an Ensign F1 car, my dad in an ex Elio De Angelis Chevron F2 car, and they were racing all over India.


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[Assistant] It's a really funny one. It's a question I get asked quite often because socially today we're still friends and, uh, you know, we still see each other, uh, on occasion and, uh,


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[Assistant] We got on socially fine, but we just never ended up doing anything together in the race team.


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[Assistant] Uh, it was a fascinating winter, but the conversation around Force India as a race seat certainly never happened. I vaguely recall some conversations around a third driver role, I think for 2011, but uhm, yeaah, not at that time.


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[Assistant] Exactly, yeaah. I think it was a question of either F1


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[Assistant] Or go off to America or sports cars or something. And especially with those new teams coming in, you know, the, the timing was, it was ripe in that sense because all of a sudden there were a bunch of new seats. There were meant to be eight new seats on the grid, ended up being six new seats, but uhm, the timing was right.


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[Assistant] Well most people don't know this, but I was one of the few drivers who went to America first to speak with Peter Windsor and Ken Anderson. Ah, USF1. About USF1. So I went and spent three days with them out there, because


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[Assistant] Peter's been a mate for many years, as he is of yours, and you know, I wanted to go out there and see what they had, but I came away from that trip thinking, I just don't think they're going to make it.


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[Assistant] They had a factory, and they had, you know, some machinery, and uhm, they had, you know, I went to the Windshear wind tunnel with them, which is what they were going to use, which was actually an incredible experience, because there was IndyCar teams there, NASCAR teams there, it's an amazing facility.


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[Assistant] Which people like Renault used to use in the Alonso years, I think. I'd met people who'd left teams like BAR to move across the pond and set up there.


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[Assistant] But, you know, this was in, I think October or November when I went across and it just didn't have the feel of a team that was going to be


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[Assistant] Ready with a car by the time we got to February. I had conversations. I went to Norfolk, spent some time with Mike Gascoigne and talked to them at Lotus. Uh, I spent a bit of time with Graham Loudon and John Booth talking about the seated Virgin at the time and they all sort of


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[Assistant] These guys are talking about an entry. We're not sure if Max and the FIA will do it, but go across and meet with them. So my dad and I literally ran to the airport, bought a flight ticket from India to Cologne, drove there, and I got to know John Howard at Toyota.


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[Assistant] Well, I was interested to hear Timo Glock on this podcast talking about that because actually when I got there and when I spoke with John and some of the people who were there, that was their sentiment. This was the car that they'd finally turned the corner on and it was there, you know, and it's extraordinary walking around this factory like a ghost town. They had 200 engines all wrapped up in plastic and


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[Assistant] Like the gearbox dyno was still on, but there were no people there. It was a bit bizarre. Uh, anyway, that didn't happen. And then I was talking to Adrian Campos because of course,


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[Assistant] What became Hispania was originally going to be Campos Meta F1. Speaking with Adrian, it was quite clear he ran out of money and finally we got to sort of February and Colin Collis got in touch and, uh,


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[Assistant] You know, we, we managed to get this deal over the line and I went across to, uh, Murcia in Spain for the launch and, uh, then went to Dallara to do the seat fit.


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[Assistant] Well physically I felt ready because I knew this was the one real opportunity with these new teams coming in. So I made sure I was physically prepared for it.


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[Assistant] Mentally, of course, it was all a bit daunting because there's so much going on. There's so much noise going on around all of these conversations with these five teams. It was a little bit tricky. But actually, when I went to Dallara to do the seat fit, that was the first time it felt real. I spent time with Mr. Dallara, Gianpaolo Dallara. Uhm, I have a great relationship with him.


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[Assistant] And, you know, then I actually spent time with the designers and having a look at the wind tunnel and things like that. And they said to me, they said, look, the car we got here really should have just done the launch at the hotel. And, but now we're kind of stuck with it. We don't have time to go testing. We ended up doing the first four flyaways.


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[Assistant] The update package they had for Barcelona was like 60 points of downforce. You know, it would have taken that car to the head of the new teams, probably not far off at Toro Rosso.


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[Assistant] Funnily enough, if you look at where Haas and Delara arrived in F1, I think it was 2016, that's sort of where they ended up, actually.


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[Assistant] Yeaah, to a lesser degree, because obviously Haas arrived with a Ferrari collaboration as well, whereas at that time, Max's mandate was everyone had to use the same Cosworth engine with the new teams, but uhm, it was certainly about, you know,


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[Assistant] Delara are a great company. If you look at what they do with IndyCar and GP2 and Formula 1 and Formula 3 and stuff, they know how to build good cars. So, yeaah, it's such a shame that


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The Hispania team, Colin and the Carabantes, collectively sort of fell out with Dallara, and that update never arrived. So that launch car, which was meant to go to a hotel, basically ended up racing in that spec for the season.


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[Assistant] Yeah, yeah, I changed in and out of my race suit about seven times because they kept saying the car will be ready and then it wasn't. And we, we finally got going in qualifying. Um, I mean the first weekend was just a scramble.


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[Assistant] In some ways, as much of a mess as it was. In other ways, it kinda took the pressure off because we just needed to get out there and do some laps. And when you're doing your first Grand Prix weekend, there's so much other stuff and noise outside of the car going on. This just got swept up with the whirlwind.


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[Assistant] I think again, uh, just to finish up on that first weekend.


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[Assistant] My standout memory is actually from the Thursday where I walked in the paddock and it's my first time walking into the paddock at a Grand Prix weekend as a race driver.


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[Assistant] And the first driver I spoke with was Michael Schumacher. This was Michael making his return to F1. He was the biggest star that time, you'd have to say. He was bigger than Lewis, Fernando, all of these guys at that time.


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[Assistant] And I was a nobody, right, but he actually walked up to me and introduced himself to me, as if he had to, and said, you know, welcome to F1, and we had a conversation, where are you from, and asked a bit about my background. You know, I had a really polite conversation.


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[Assistant] He didn't need to do that until today and I told Mick this story last year as well when he came to F1. I said I really appreciated that as a young kid coming into F1 with a guy who was on my bedroom wall. That meant a lot and still means a lot even today.


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[Assistant] It was a weird race because we had all these changeable conditions and stuff. But when I look back at that time, my best race was.


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[Assistant] Probably in Valencia that year, uhm, I think we're in those early races. We weren't really racing. We were just surviving. You know, the, we were very lucky. We had a guy called Andre Bird who sadly passed away recently, but Andre came from Williams and he was a hydraulic specialist.


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[Assistant] You know, it's very rare these days in these big race teams that you can literally peg.


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[Assistant] Your finishing record on one individual, but uhm, you know, he, he was one of those people who was just helping us get over the line. So to be honest, till we got through those first three or four flyaways, we were just surviving as a team, just getting going. But you know, for me, it was.


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[Assistant] It was still an opportunity to race in F1 which was, you know, a dream come true.


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[Assistant] I think when we got to Barcelona, uhm, and you realize the update wasn't coming and we were kind of stuck there.


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[Assistant] It became, we had some pretty heated meetings in Shanghai. I remember Bruno Senna, because Bruno was my teammate, but he was also one of my closest friends at the sport.


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[Assistant] And I remember we went to a meeting, Bruno, his sister Bianca was managing him, my dad and I, we went and had this meeting with the Carabantes at a hotel in, in Shanghai. It was quite a punchy meeting, but we came away.


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[Assistant] I think they'd come in under the illusion of the 40 million cap, which obviously didn't go through, uh, and they just somewhat underestimated what it was.


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[Assistant] Then they get to the stage where they're trying to get money through the door and where there's quite comical moment in, uh, Barcelona. I remember walking into the pit garage for FP1.


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[Assistant] And as I walked in one door, Christian Clean walked in the other door and he was in a race suit and he looked at me and went, what are you doing? And I went, what are you doing? And, uh, he said, I'm driving the car in FP1 and nobody told me. Then I looked at the car.


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[Assistant] Anyway, eventually it transpired that they'd done a deal with Christian to do a bunch of FP1s, but nobody bothered telling me. And then I remember opening the toolbox to get a screwdriver to change my visor or something.


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[Assistant] There was a whole list of name stickers. They had Pastor Maldonado, Jacques Villeneuve, Giorgio Mondini. Can't remember. There's two or three. There's like a sticker list of driver names in the top drawer of the toolbox. So looking back, it was all quite comical.


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[Assistant] You know, at the time, it's pretty stressful when you find out you're, someone else is driving your car for FP1.


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[Assistant] Bruno and I got on really well because we, we had a, we discovered in GP2 that we had a very similar driving style and actually


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[Assistant] Neither of us have an ego, you know, so we got on really well in terms of teammates and, um, sharing information and wanted similar things from the car. And actually we had a similar background in terms of neither of us actually did any carting. You know, he did a bit of carting at Ayrton's farm.


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[Assistant] But then the family didn't let him do any racing till he was older. And similar for me, growing up in India, I never did a go-kart race in my life. So we both missed that whole phase of, you know, eight to 10 years of your career where the Hamiltons and the Stappers and all these people are building up.


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[Assistant] Well, I was going to say it builds up the muscle memory. It builds up, you know, it gets your nerves just at that young age where it's so important to build that muscle memory. We missed all of that. So in many ways, Bruno and I had parallels. It's quite funny because I was always very open about the fact that I was an Alan Prost fan growing up.


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[Assistant] And I, I would often, you know, Bruno and I would talk about it as well. Uh, and I, I became very good friends with his mom, Viviane and, um, and Bianca and everyone. So we got on really well. I think the pressure for him was, is obviously huge, right? Carrying the surname is.


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[Assistant] Is, was a lot to lot of baggage to carry. And I think much like we sing with Mick these days, you know, they've got the baggage of the surname.


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[Assistant] But without the benefit of having that individual in the paddock as a mentor, you know, that's tough for those guys. But I always saw and treated Bruno as Bruno, as my mate, rather than Ayrton's nephew, uh, as someone who sent a name. And I think that's why we got on.


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[Assistant] Well, the Silverstone weekend is quite something as well, because when I got to the track on Thursday, my race engineer Richard Connell said to me,


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[Assistant] Really sorry mate, but I think Sakon's driving this weekend in your car. And I was like, well, again, nobody's told me. So I said, look, I'm going to go on a track walk with my dad and just sort of clear my head and see what happens. And I, we was, it was the last year of using the old pits at cops.


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[Assistant] And I got to the hangar straight and my phone rang and Richard said, uh, you're in for the weekend, but I think Sakon's doing FP1. And I thought, okay, that's okay. I can deal with that.


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[Assistant] And we carried on walking and I came out of the club and the phone rang again and he said, you're in all weekend, but I think Sakon's doing FP1 in Bruno's car. Fine, even better.


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[Assistant] By the time I got to the, the complex, um, you know, near, near Loughfield, he called and said, ah, it's all kicking off at the motorhome. Bruno's out for the weekend. There's a lot of shouting going on. Uh, it's going to be you and Sakon.


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[Assistant] So essentially, the British Grand Prix is going to be my last one with them.


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[Assistant] To be honest, I was getting bored of the track, so I sort of volunteered to join Crofty in the comms box. But what people in the UK and Europe perhaps didn't appreciate is that I...


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[Assistant] I first commentated on a Grand Prix when I was 20 years old. I did the 2004 Chinese Grand Prix for Star Sports in Asia. And I'd spent many years commentating for Star Sports in between my Formula 3 and GP2 racing.


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[Assistant] Just to earn a bit of money. You know, I had no financial backing. You know, we had just about enough to go racing. Everything we had was poured into the racing.


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[Assistant] Buying an extra set of tires so any money I could earn was handy. I did F1 in cinemas with Ben Edwards across the UK and all sorts of commentary things.


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[Assistant] Commentating wasn't new for me and to be honest, it was a conscious thing to do because it was a fallback career, right? You know, every winter for me in F3 and GP2 and stuff was...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Was stressful because you didn't know where the money would be to carry on. And the career, the driving career could have ended at any time.


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[Assistant] As you know, I'm a huge Formula One fan and I wanted to find ways to make sure I'm still involved in the sport.


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[Assistant] I think at the end of the day, for me, the fact that I am such a huge F1 fan, and I've watched so much of it, it built a knowledge bank in my brain since the age I was three.


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[Assistant] Is what I fall back on as a commentator. Uhm, I think the art of being able to communicate things, certainly having that early experience where you're commentating to Asia and Asian audiences, which aren't as mature as an audience for F1 as perhaps the European ones, means you have to explain things and break things down in a simplistic way.


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[Assistant] And I think I got used to doing that, which perhaps has helped me even today.


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[Assistant] Possibility to do some FP1s and be a reserve driver with Force India, actually. Now, as we're talking about this podcast, I think that's where there was an opportunity. But 2011 was the first year of the Indian Grand Prix and my deal with Lotus and the deal I negotiated with Tony Fernandez was to do


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Can't remember off the top of my head, but X amount of FP1 sessions, some days of pre-season testing, and then a certain amount of races, including the Indian Grand Prix.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] To be honest, that deal, and that year was my least enjoyable year.


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[Assistant] 20 years of being involved in the sport. I did this deal with Tony and I went into it with all the right intentions of, you know, it was going to be a dream come true to race in the Indian Grand Prix as an Indian driver and for me with the team further up the grid.


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[Assistant] And what I didn't realize is essentially Tony hadn't really discussed it with anybody else. So I rocked up at the first test in Valencia in my Lotus team kit and Mike Gascoigne and the engineers sort of looked at me and what are you doing here?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You know, that is not the way to integrate yourself into a team. I felt like an outsider straight away. Those test days that I was meant to do at Jerez and Barcelona, I think, got taken away from me, so I didn't drive the car.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I just made a mistake. I ended up having a shunt, which was...


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[Assistant] He didn't really understand why I was there, because he had race drivers. Tony hadn't explained the deal to them. And I was, you know, you're just sort of hanging around like the spare part at a race.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Well, Janu was having some issues that year with the steering system. He wasn't getting on with the steering system in the car. And I did a whole bunch of simulator days, which were actually the, which was actually the only enjoyable part of that time, to be honest. I had a really interesting time doing it because we were renting the Red Bull simulator. So I was doing loads of days in the sim and I think Tony just got a bit fed up and


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] As we was walking to the grid at the British Grand Prix at Silverstone, I was chatting with, uh, I remember my friend Jimmy Roberts, who was writing for F1 racing at the time. And Tony just bombed up and said, you're doing the next race, I've had enough of Yano's moaning. And I sort of went.


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[Assistant] Frustration, anger, dissolution, disappointment. I would say that next four months is the only time in my life I fell out of love with motor racing.


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[Assistant] I completely fell out because I knew I was going to that race weekend. The contract I had wasn't being honored. There was going to be a long drawn battle, contractual court battle potentially. At the end of the day, most importantly, my dream of racing my home Grand Prix was being taken away from me.


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[Assistant] He just said, I can't do it. He kept saying, I'm really sorry. I'm really sorry. I know you're really upset. I'm really sorry. And when someone says that, there's no...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It was, I was the easiest plug to pull, I guess.


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[Assistant] I like to look at things with a silver lining. I think in, if you asked me this question in 2012-13, my answer would probably be I was hugely frustrated with life and frustrated with F1 and the politics of F1 and all of that stuff.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] If I take a step back, look at the people that they were there in 2010. Jeff Willis at Mercedes since then, very successful. Tony Ciccareo went on to be chief race engineer at Ferrari. Stephen Mitus was chief engineer on the Porsche LMP1 team.


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[Assistant] Richard Connor, my engineers at Bricksworth with Mercedes winning all these world championships. You know, we had some, uh, really, really clever engineers on there. Uh, so the race team, actually the people in the race team were brilliant and I enjoyed learning from them and spending time working with them. I perhaps underestimated.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] How much money there was really behind it. So looking back at it, at that time I was hugely frustrated by an opportunity lost. I was annoyed with myself that I put myself in a position to blindly trust the contractual situation at Lotus and I should have been more


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But now looking back, I look at the silver lining and go, look, I came from India, never having done a go-kart race, didn't really have a proper budget to do anything in F3, GP2, got lucky with people like Red Bull who came to support me at the right moments.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And I'm one out of 1.2 billion people from my country who could say they were a Formula One driver. And actually that's a big box to take in any driver's career.


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[Assistant] I would say it's the same as we're seeing everywhere else in the world. You know, the recent rise we're seeing across the calendar, frankly, in the last three years, India's no different despite the fact we haven't got a race there anymore.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I think India is a bit different, right? To countries like Bahrain or places like China and more recent venues that have joined, Baku and places like that.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I look back to the late 90s, there was a huge F1 audience. You know, there used to be these bars in India that would do F1 screenings and you'd have half the bar dressed in red for Michael Schumacher and the other half dressed in silver for Mika Hakkinen.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You know, there was a huge F1 following in the late 90s already, uhm, which is why when we got to that first race in 2011, 105,000 people showed up.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You know, Stefano and I speak about it every few months even. There's a few historical issues to do with legislation and taxes and the government which need to be resolved, but ultimately the government


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] A race like Singapore, for example, you know, it's, it's got collaborative effort between a private individual and a private company as well as government, but it's still hugely supported by the government. Whereas in India, that never really happened. And that's largely why the race has sort of fallen apart.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Well, the circuit have just done a deal with MotoGP, so MotoGP is going to be racing there. Uhm, they still run national racing events and track days and other bits and pieces.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So the circuit is still there. It's still homologated for grade one. Yeaah. I mean, listen, I'd love to have the Grand Prix back there. I spent, uh,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] A lot of time and effort working with my dad and, you know, the team of people we had to put the Grand Prix on for those three years. And it was fascinating, right? For me, I had the opportunity to see the sport as a driver and as being part of a team. So from a, from that perspective,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But we worked with Formula One on the TV rights through 2002-34 to put it on terrestrial TV in India, so I got to see that side of the sport. And then we worked a lot to bring the race to India and run the operations for the race in that phase.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You know, having inputs on all of that stuff and then negotiating the contracts with F1 and the promoter and all this sort of stuff.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Traveling, and even actually take a step even before that, going back to 2006-07.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I was traveling across India with Bernie, going to all these meetings with him and with various people who said, oh, we want to host an F1 race, it'll be great. And just sitting in on those meetings was so interesting for me as a, you know, I was what, 22 at the time, 22, 23 at the time.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Being involved in these meetings where they're talking about hundreds of millions of dollars across a contract was fascinating.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Absolutely. You know, I, I didn't go to university because my career was from high school. You know, I did my equivalent of A levels in India and went to go racing. And, um, I always say to people when they were, you know, what school did you go to? I say SHK, the school of hard knocks.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I don't know whether we need another track in India. It's, it's not, that's not the limiting factor. It's actually getting the government to buy into it and put the financial backing into it.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Coming back to your point about designing tracks, it's great fun, to be honest. You know, we're designing a whole range of circuits. We did the redevelopment of the Abu Dhabi track last year. It's pretty cool that the championship was decided at a corner that I helped to redesign at turn five.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, 100%. It got more nervous because I have people like Crofty and Simon Lazenby ripping into me all through Thursday and Friday telling me, um, how it was going to be all my fault. But it was a tricky one, right? Because it's sort of, that was sort of like renovating a house and you're telling the,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The architect, you can't move the kitchen, you can't move the bathrooms and you can't move the garage because essentially that's what we had. You know, you can't move the marina, can't move the pit complex.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Or the pit exit or the grandstands. So you, you, you have to kind of work around that. But you know, the fact that the drivers all ended Friday.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, we're doing all these fun projects now. We got a one in Canada outside of Toronto. And for me, it's a chance to, you know, I've,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, you know, during COVID, I invested in a simulator in my office and we've set up a remote working system now where


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And it's, it's a great way of incorporating a driver's thoughts. Cause that's often the case. Circuits get designed and the driver goes, oh, that's a bit rubbish because nobody asked the drivers. Whereas we've come about in a slightly different way.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You know, I'm involved from, here's the plot of land, let's get some pencils out, start sketching something, then we go to the simulation models and, and all the way through.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I think this is where people don't understand the complexities actually, because