[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You could do something called combat sky spots where the F-4s could come in and drop 500 pound bombs, but they were doing it based on radar. So, you had to start them like 2,500, 3,000 meters away and bring them in because you didn't know where they were going to land.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] They would be somewhere, you know, in that circle, but you had to let something hit and then start to work it, so yeaah. The night time, you know, could be a problem.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, I mean, you did that, uh, in Special Forces and in Ranger School. You did, you know, the military version of a hand-to-hand. Uh, but I had, uh, trained in, you know, Taekwondo when I was in college.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I broke my hand one night in a little pub, and I thought, there's gotta be a way. You broke your hand on a pub? No.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I found this, uh, Taekwondo place, you know, right off campus there, and I went in and I said, you know, I need to toughen up a little bit. I'm tired of, you know, getting hurt, so.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You know, the stress level was so, so high, it just, you know, you're locked, loaded, you're ready to go and something triggers you and you go for it, you know, you react. It's just...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Just the, the instinct. Somebody had me and it was me or him. And, you know, I just unleashed everything I still had.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, I mean in the story you're talking about is they approach him and start shooting.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You know, the two, first two guys that get, that get there, one starts shooting and, uh,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] What happens is some of the bullets are hitting on different parts of...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He's shooting at him. I mean, the bullets are coming back at him. They think he's shooting. The other guy with him trips on the steps and falls.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So his partner thinks, man, they hit him, he's down. The other two were up there, they think he's down.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And, you know, they all just continue to shoot an innocent guy. So we see what we're expecting. We have to be careful with that. And it happens.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Probably getting off track here, but some of it is practice, practice, practice.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Go through the immediate action drills. You keep doing it and doing it and doing it. One of the things


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I used to make my guys practice that they really didn't like.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Was, when we were going on a mission because you're gonna be out there for so long, uhm, you, the 1-0 care, the medical kit, so I'd have a medical kit with me.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Everyone there carried, uh, came in a can back then, just a little can about that big around. You had it taped on the back of your web gear. It had a bag of ringer solution in it, a blood expander.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You know, cause when you, when you get hit, most of the time what you die of from a gunshot wound is you bleed to death.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You can't get the blood, you know, stopped in time.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, so we all carried a bag of ringer solution so, you know, you could get an IV right there on the spot. You know, my thinking was, especially after that first incident when I was having trouble getting the magazine and the weapon.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So that, you know, we're getting shot at. You've done it before. It won't be the first time that you've tried to put a needle in the vein. They did not like that. Uhm, like I said, okay, now swap partners. Let's do it again. Let's do it again. And every so often we would go through that drill. Let's practice. Let's practice opening a can.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You know, you don't want to have never tried to open that can before when somebody's shooting at you.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And your buddy is bleeding to death. You have to have been through the whole process. Let's do it.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Fortunately, you got your code name on day one. So after we got the briefing, the name, then, you know, we had to select a code name.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You know, I, I really do like to blow things up. So, I'm, I'm small, and, uh, you know, dynamite probably works for me. I mean, I blew my neighbor's windows out when I was a teenager one time with a rocket that exploded on, uh, on my launch pad.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I didn't intend for that to happen, but you know, I was always blowing things up, so. And then when I was there in, uh, Southeast Asia, yeaah, I blew things up all the time. I blew bridges up, I blew up all kinds of things. And I always carried a lot of demo with me, so.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And that was your call sign too. Was that your call sign when you were in the field?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It would be my call sign if I was wounded or something like that. Got it. Uhm, but call signs that we use are always three letter groups. Okay. Got it.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That was, uh, That had to be unexpected. That was still with DEC's team.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And we went in, eh, it wasn't a hot LZ or didn't appear to be. We didn't throw any fire going in. We got off the aircraft. The aircraft, you know, took off.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] We're on the ground and all of a sudden, you know, we couldn't see. You couldn't breathe. This stuff is coming across the LZ.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And, you know, we were coughing and gagging because we didn't have masks with us. Masks


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] We're like helmets and plaque jackets. That's extra weight you gotta carry. And unless we were intending to use gas, we didn't carry it. Because it was just very, very rare that the NVA would use gas. And in this case, we're on LZ. Here comes the gas. We're not prepared for it. We had to call, you know, for the aircraft to come back and get us out. It creates a real problem for pilots.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And now all of a sudden they're getting all of the, the gas coming in. You know, it's hard for them to see the instrument panel to be able to fly.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It was, it wasn't a pleasant experience. And it was one of those things we didn't plan for it. You know? Because it was such a rarity.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] We'd carry a gas canister, we'd carry a regular, you know, like a CS grenade, but we'd also carry the CS rounds for the M49, the 40mm. So we could shoot those, but if we carried a CS or the grenades, then, you know, we carried the masks too.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It was, the masks were, because we were going to use them.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] This was, I think this, this was my last mission with R.T. Alabama with, uh, with Duck. And we had gone up, we made it a little fish hook, we came back, it was early afternoon and we were going to take a break for a little while.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So, we had put out the claymores, I had put a, a tow popper out, and


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] There are some strange trees in that area. I'm still not sure what they're called, but uhm, they almost look like


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Just lay down between, you know, these roots.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And, you know, you won't be able to see me because I'm kind of down in there. And that's where I'll take my break. And then we hear the towpiper go off.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I heard that loud scream as soon as the tow proper went off.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It's just this barrage of AK-47 fire coming, some of it, you know, in our direction, some of it in other directions, they didn't know exactly where we were.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But in that first barrage coming through, I had three AK rounds come through the root on my left side. Right across my shirt, I had just exhaled and through the root on the other side, if I had just inhaled,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It would have taken the top of my chest off when it came by. So it just grazed me.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You know, coming across and I said, I probably should get out of here. Uhm, so, because the groups are not providing any, you know, actual.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, you know, firefight going on. Eventually had to work gunships and things and get extracted, but.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] One of the things that I also did was got another taste of the impact of adrenaline. Because when I came out from behind a tree, uh, I had taken my arms out of the straps on the rucksack.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So I had to grab it with my hand, and I grabbed it with my left hand, you know, and it weighed probably 75 pounds.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But I'm, I'm not a big guy, but I'm tossing that 75 pound rucksack around like it's a pillow. Uh, and you know, it's gonna go with me as we fight our way, you know, down the ridge and toward the LZ.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But I paid for it, you know, later on, you know, after we got extracted, I realized I had pulled muscles in my shoulders, because, you know, muscles weren't designed to handle that much weight, but I had so much adrenaline pumping through my system then.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Usually you'll have something within 30 minutes that, that you might be able to work a gunship or something like that. But for the extraction ships it might be an hour depending, you know, on how far in there you are. And it might be longer than that. Uh, but if you had bad weather, nobody's coming. Because they, you know, they can't find you.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] At the different CNCs, we had our own Air Force meteorologist that tracked the weather, gave weather briefings, you know, two or three times a day, you know, to the command group. The teams would get them, we would get them before we would go out, so that we would know kind of what to expect.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And, you know, we didn't launch unless the weather looked like it was gonna be good.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You know, for the insertion because you didn't want to get out there and all of a sudden you couldn't use the, the assets that you had with you.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So uhm, but still, it's kind of like today. The best weather predictions that are made are the ones the day after. Yeaah. We can tell you what probably happened yesterday, or at least with a high probability of what happened yesterday.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But the weather change, you know, it's uhm, where we were up north most of the time, it was a rainforest.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I mean, it's gonna rain every day. So it's gonna rain. Every day it's gonna rain, uh, and the clouds would roll right down on top of the mountain, uh, and just totally conceal it, conceal the ridgelines. Though not only are you under a triple canopy jungle a lot, now you've got a cloud cover over it.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I mean, up above that, they can see fine, but they can't see where you are. They can't, you know, you can fire the flares out. They won't see them because they're in the clouds.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Most of the time, I carried the radio. I mean, you had, you had a guy, you know, one of the three Americans was supposed to be carrying the radio. Uhm, usually the, the 1-2, if you had a 1-2.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But I carried mine almost all the time. But even if I didn't carry it, I wanted to talk. So, bring it, bring it over here. I want to tell them, you know, what I needed.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So, you know, that gave me another 25 pounds plus depending on how many batteries I carried, uhm, more weight to go in my rucksack. And that's if we used, you know, the PRC 25 or 77.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But I think Tilt mentioned that at one point, uh, we had a commander take over CCN who said, you're gonna carry the KY-38, uh, secure radio, uhm, which,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The PRC-77 was about 25 pounds and then it had to connect into the KY-38.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Stack them on a rucksack, one under the other. Most people were wearing the 77 in the back and the 38 in the front. To help you balance, you know, going up and down the hills and the mud. That's a good theory. But, you know, I, to me, and my experience said,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The more you can look like an empty pair of fatigues laying on the ground, the greater your chance of survival when somebody's shooting at you. So the more stuff you put on your chest or around your waist that raises you up in the air, makes you more, I mean I get my rucksack shot up all the time. I mean I'd be laying there in bullets and just zinging through the rucksack.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Because it was sticking up, you know, above me. But when you put that KY-38 on your chest, that pushes your body up another six inches in the air. So now the chances of you getting hit, instead of the rucksack, go up. So, I didn't like to carry it.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I only used it a few times, I mean it had a pretty high malfunction rate.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Everybody has to have that same encryption, uhm, which is an interesting story we may get to a little later about that, but yeaah. It was a pain, but I wanted to talk on the radio.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] My, my team carried one, an M60 machine gun. Uhm, M60s are heavy. They are heavy, indeed.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] My team carried one, one time because I thought it would be cool.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I carried the machine gun because I thought, man, the firepower I'll have with this thing, I can show those guys on the other side here what war is all about. And we made contact and I opened up with that baby and I learned a lesson really quickly. And it made sense.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You know, when it happened, because we always teach, you gotta take the machine gun out.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You know, really see what I'm doing, but I couldn't take my head around there. They'd take it all. And so after that mission, that's enough of that.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You know, where we were going in with the intent of engaging the enemy and not running.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, then we would carry, you know, two M60s.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] At least. And then, you know, when you carry an M60, everybody on a team has to carry.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, M60 ammo. I mean, everybody's got at least 100 round belt with them.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You know, plus the machine gun is carrying all that extra weight. So, I mean it's...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It doesn't just weight down the machine gunners. Everybody on the team now is still going to carry all those 40 millimeter, you know, grenades with them for the M79.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And now I'm giving you another 15, 20 pounds of machine gun ammo to carry along with you. You know, there's only five or six of you. Uhm, the weight just goes up so fast that we didn't do it.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That's an interesting story in that it varied by team. And like, well, in the 12 months that I was there, I went out 18 times.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Which was way beyond, way beyond what an officer, uh, led team would do. I don't know that the other teams were going out that frequently, uhm, you know, in that shorter period. The paper that you signed when you joined SOG said,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I've gotta say, I volunteered to do it some more. So you had this, you know, a little safety valve in there to,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Give you a chance to kind of wake up and say, this is not a smart thing to do. And here's my ticket to do something different.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The grunts are going out there every day and fighting, you know, or doing something or being exposed.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You know, as Tilt says, across the fence, you're going to another country. Uhm, when you see the casualties, you know, the KIAs of SOG,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] At least in the beginning, they all said South Vietnam. That's not where they would go. So you were going out, but in between those missions, you might do something in country.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, like Lin, Lin Black, one of, uh, Tilt's big buddies, they were on the same team and stuff for a while. Lin was, uh, you know, just a unbelievable one-zero, and he and I, you know, kind of became friends and, uh, in between missions, we would do things like,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Why don't we take some of our guys tonight and let's go over the Marble Mountain and set up an ambush. I guarantee you we'll catch somebody in it. And let's go do that. What about tomorrow afternoon? You want to take some of our guys and let's go search some of the caves in Marble Mountain.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Those jokers are in there. We just have to find them. You know, so we would, we would do a lot of things like that.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Let's, let's go do this. So, and then you had, uh, you know, Marble Mountain, the two combat outposts, uh, teams would rotate up there.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You know, two teams up there all the time. So in between missions, you know, you might go out there for a week or two weeks at a time, uh, and then come back down and start mission prep, you know, for another mission and to go back out.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So it wasn't like you were just sitting around in between missions. You were always doing something. Uh, plus you've done a lot of training.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] We might start with an initial briefing as a, as a day.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Briefing, this is what we're gonna go to do, is where we're gonna go do it. And depending on what the mission was, I might say, okay, so we're going to go over, uh, to a place that was called Monkey Mountain.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] We're going over to Monkey Mountain because it's a good place over there for us to rehearse.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, we can go over there and, and get in some, you know, realistic rehearsals. So we might go spend a few days over there, just doing that. And we, while we're there, we rehearse our, uh, RON procedures, putting in the claymores, where do we put them?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Put the team in a different place every night so that you had to, okay, let's look at the train we're in now.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] What's the most likely approaches? What do we need to defend the claymores? Where do we put the towhoppers?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] What's our avenue of egress? How do we get out of here? If they come at us from this direction or this direction, where do we go? And where's, where are the closest LZs that we're gonna go to and how do we get there? Everybody needs to know that. You know, whether you're American or indeed, you gotta know where it is. You gotta know how to get there.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So we would, we would do the training like that, but particularly mission specific for what we're coming up on. Uh, and then as you got closer,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You would have the mission briefing where, uh, your air assets would be there. So the pilots who were gonna fly your insertion, the gunship pilots.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, Air Force representative for, uh, the A1Es that were going to be there, the L4s that were going to be there, you know, so you would have the big briefing there and everybody would agree on everything and make sure you had all the call signs and everything down and contingency actions.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The Covey, I haven't said anything about him, we'd always have a Covey out there with a forward air controller, uh, that we could talk to and could look down and tell us what, you know, he was seeing, uh, might be able to see the bad guys coming to us or whatever, uh, get more assets for us.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, two to four A1E Sky Raiders.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Two to four L4s, uh, you've got cubby, you've got the insertion ships that you're going in with.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You've got trailing ships in case those get shot down that are flying empty so they can drop down and pick you up. Sometimes you might have a ship with the medics in it because you're expecting casualties.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You know, so it was a, it could be a big air shell sometimes going in, but if you were going, if you were going to North Vietnam,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You had to have the F-4s. I mean, it was just required for the mission. Some of the others, Laos, Cambodia, you could go without the F-4s and just use the A-1 Sky Raiders.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But if you're going North Vietnam, you better have the F-4s with you because they could send a MIG down there if they wanted to. So you had to worry about air cover as well as hitting big targets.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You know, it can get your attention real fast. And the Sky Raiders, you know, do too, because they...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] They're, they fly low, slow, and they're carrying their own weight and ordnance. And they can put it right next to you. You tell them where you want it, that 20mm is hitting 10 feet over there, and right along beside you, or whatever the ordnance they're carrying. You need to get your attention. I mean those, those chokers are good.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yes, so I had gotten that, I mean already, I had it before we did the four, but we knew that FOB1 was going to close down. And when it closed down, the teams were going to get scattered around. So I knew I would get a team, but I would get one somewhere else.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, so we just stayed together, you know, for those four missions.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And you know, the guy was a beautiful legend. He was back four I think. Yeaah. And he was already a legend.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Well, he already had a good reputation. So we got along well, because I had to ask about him, because I didn't. He was a different camp, I didn't know about him.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So I had asked about him and everybody I talked to said, man, you know, this guy is good.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He was asking everyone else about you too. He was asking about me, and he told me. And I said, well, what'd they tell you? And he said, well, I talked to, you know, Sergeant Johns, and


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You know, it was impressive because he said, and you know, I had total faith in him, he said,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, and he, I mean, he's very knowledgeable, very good.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I mean, this guy is good. And, you know, when we went out on an operation,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He was just cool and calm. Uhm, you know, when the shooting started, I mean, he was good. But, I mean, he had...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He had experience. I mean, he was at K-Sign with the team there. The siege of K-Sign, I mean, he was, he was there. I mean, where they just got hammered for, you know, several weeks there.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He was, you know, there with that special forces detachment. He had recruited


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I actually had recruited some of the team members that we had, and this was a yard team.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, you know, they all liked him. They all had a lot of respect for him. Uhm, and he, you know, he was a smart guy. Uhm, I just never thought then


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You know, where he would end up. I figured, you know, if he doesn't get killed.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He's probably going to be somebody at some point. But I didn't expect to see him, I don't know, I guess it was in the...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] In the late 70s, I saw him at Fort Bragg. No, I guess it was in the 80s. I saw him at Fort Bragg.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You know, how can you be a captain? I'm, you know, I'm a major. You were a spec four the last time I saw you, and now you're a captain.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And, and I, you know, I thought that was great, so we hung out a little bit. He was in, uhm, Delta.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So we chatted about, you know, Delta Force and all that kind of stuff and, uhm,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You know, I had some good times while we were there together at Bragg. And then I guess...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The next time I actually saw him, uh, he was a major.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He's going through the Commander General Staff College. And I'm thinking, I'm about to get promoted, but I'm still a major too. How's this guy doing this?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And, you know, then the next thing, he's a lieutenant colonel and then he's a full colonel and, you know, ends up a major general.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And he just, he's just constantly going. And everybody kept telling me, uhm, get out of Special Forces. Special Forces is a kiss of death for an officer. You stay in Special Forces.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, you're not going anywhere. Well, he did. I mean, not only did he did great on that tour with Sog, uh, he did a second tour, uh, he ended up


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The command, not just being in Delta, he came back and commanded Delta Force.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And then over all special operations and all this kind of stuff, I mean, just,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You tell him this is what you need to do, or where you need to go, I mean, he's gonna make it happen. Uh, cool, calm, uhm, and he was a smart guy. I mean, he didn't brag about it. When you talk to him, uhm, just very humble. And, but you could tell, I mean, he's smart.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I mean, he's thinking about what you're saying and what he comes out with and when he makes recommendations.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He talks about things. You need to be listening because he's thought to step through.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] No, but no fear from a combat perspective. I mean, if the bad guys are coming, he's gonna take them out. And, you know, demonstrated that.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You know, on several occasions with me, demonstrated it later on, uhm, I think he got...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I think he got hit the next mission after he was with me. Uhm, but he, he had put on an AK-47 vest, you know, so. Got shot in the chest. Got shot in the magazine or something. Yeaah. Went in the magazine. You know, he poked through enough to make a little hole in him, but it didn't go all the way through, you know.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But, and then he, you know, on another mission, he got shot a couple more times and another mission, he, uh, B-40 rocket hit the team. Everybody was wondering, he had a piece of shrapnel go in through his, uh, cheek and kind of lodged behind his eye, you know, so he's,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And he, he just taking people out right and left, you know, the whole, everybody wanted, including him. But that's, that's what he did. The only general, on record,


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[Assistant] That for a personal firearm carried an AK-47. An AK-47, I mean he's walking around as a general officer instead of having that little pop gun on his hip. He's got an AK-47 slung over his shoulder and he's, he's telling, you know, his aides and bodyguards,


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[Assistant] Yeah, so we'd have those little fights most nights. Uh, the bad guys trying to come up and get us. The snipers would shoot at us just before dark. There was one cave opening that was almost on our level.


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[Assistant] I don't know, 50 meters away from us, that if they worked their way up to that opening, they could shoot just about into us at night.


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[Assistant] I've got videos of that cave and you can see how the marble has just chipped off all around the opening of that cave where we were shooting at them at night, you know, when they were up in there and stuff. So uhm, we did a lot of stuff together. It was a good relationship.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It was kind of a, when they told us what they wanted us to do, I thought, this sounds like ranger school.


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[Assistant] Uh, and they wanted us to do that from a position where the 101st was currently located. So, uh, there was a battalion from the 101st that was set up right on the border.


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[Assistant] So they coordinated to have us, have our team put on steel pots and all that kind of stuff, get on the resupply helicopters. We came in with a resupply like we were


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] New troops coming, you know, to be there, and we jumped off, and, and then they, they put us in a, inside the perimeter of it, but in a section, and said, uhm, you need to dig in.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You know, and all the little guys were looking around saying, what? You need to dig a hole. Foxhole are getting in a fighting position. And the response was, we don't dig.


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[Assistant] So I don't, yeaah, you need to dig. I mean, we're out here with people, bullets going everywhere, you need to dig in, so it was a good thing we did, because it got a little hairy, you know, that night, and it was nice to be able to get down in a hole.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And then I met with the company commander and platoon leaders and their forward observer.


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[Assistant] I gave them our plan, you know, here's what we're gonna do, uh, but what shocked them was, I said, okay, uh, these coordinates, I want you to pre-plan that as an artillery target, and here's the name of it.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And I want one here, and here, and here, and these are the names. All I'm gonna do is call that name out.


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[Assistant] Uh, target Roger. I'm not going to give you coordinates. You gotta have that already planned. And when I say Roger,


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[Assistant] So this was great. We were never in range of artillery and all of a sudden I got it. I planned it. I planned that stuff all over the place.


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[Assistant] And so the, what we did the next morning was at first light we went down to the stream with the water resupply team. They'd go down and fill all the canteens and things up and bring them up. So we went down with them dressed like the 101st and when we got down there.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And they threw them in bags and carried them back up and we just, you know, went on across the river and, and uh, uh, the jungle there on our mission. So hoping that the bad guys thought, you know, nobody had come in that way.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So we went out on our mission. There was a hatchet force platoon that had been inserted, you know, much further out in the valley. But we went in and, I mean, it was just...


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[Assistant] You know, different and a cool way to do something. And then, you know, when we got in contact, I mean, when I call for those targets, they put it right on them. So, that was a cool thing. It was interesting that


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[Assistant] You know, I'm telling those two, no, I'm telling you, we are right here. And I said, no, you're 200 meters off. I said, there's no way.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So anyway, we, we in contact, and I told him, I said, you know, if we're where I am, or where I'm saying we are, there's a fork in the stream, and there's a little footbridge going across one, right out there, about 150 meters in front of us.


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[Assistant] You know, I spent a lot of time in the woods growing up, so I, and, and particularly in the dark. I love the dark.


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[Assistant] I can, I can feel the change in the terrain. I know if I'm going uphill, downhill, if I'm on a little side, whatever.


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[Assistant] Uh, so I would take the section of the map that I thought we were gonna operate in, and I just memorize it. Did you guys have one to fifty thousand maps?


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[Assistant] Or they went to 24. Yeaah, they were, well, we had both, but what we, depending on the distance that we were gonna go, but I could just, I mean, usually we didn't go very far, you know, so you could memorize, if you were used to doing that, the section of the map. I could see it in my mind, you know, when we were moving.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I knew where we were, I knew what the pace counts were, I knew what the terrain should look like, you know, where we were. I had checkpoints set up that, you know, if we're here, we'll see this. If we're here, we'll see this. You know, so I could track it, plus I used the pace count.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So I, I knew where I was out there. That was one thing that I, I thought was critical because eventually you're gonna have to call for help and you need to be able to tell them where you are. And under triple canopy jungle,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You're not shooting azimuths to hilltops and things like that. I mean, you gotta know where you are on the ground because you know the topology, what it feels like, what it looks like, and how far you've gone. And, you know, that was just the skill set.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I typically use the term lots, meaning, you know, a hundred or more.


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[Assistant] Headquarters decided they needed to resupply us because they wanted us to stay longer. And I was saying, no. Don't bring a helicopter out here and hover over our position. Don't do that. You gotta get resupplied.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And they did it anyway. So, you know, once you have a chopper hovering above the canopy there, dropping stuff down through it.


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[Assistant] The bad guys, I mean they're all over the place anyway. They're all.


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[Assistant] There must be somebody down there. If nothing else, they're gonna go get whatever fell out of that helicopter. And they did. They came down there, and there we were. So.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It kinda, you know, messed up the afternoon in terms of what we'd planned to do, you know, but we got out.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But it's an extraction on strings through, you know, double canopy jungle. It's rough because you, you're being dragged through the limbs of the trees through the tree tops. The aircraft will always start to, to go forward.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And then you're being drugged through them, and... Well, they want to get the hell out of the line of fire, right? Yeah, because they're getting shot at. They don't want to stay there long. You're getting shot at, and...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It's hard for you to shoot because you're twisting and turning and hitting leaves and, you know, now they're behind you and it's hard to shoot that way and, you know, they're only going to take


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, maybe four people at a time out anyway. So that means you got another topper coming in. The bad guys know you're going out on strings now.


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[Assistant] And you got another aircraft coming in to pick up the rest of the team. You know, I'm the team leader. I'm...


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[Assistant] Always. First off, first one on the ground, last one on the ground. You know, so I'm coming out with that last aircraft.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I'm the last one, you know, to come up off the ground. And, you know.


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[Assistant] They've got you pretty well zeroed in by then. Even though, you know, you're starting to work some gunships and stuff. But, uhm, yeaah, the pilots don't like staying near. And then, uh, then they get over the, in this case, they get over the anti-aircraft fire.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You know, I'm swinging back and forth, so my rope is rubbing back and forth on the edge of the floor of the helicopter. And I'm thinking.


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[Assistant] We got a long ways to go, and it's starting to fray the rope up here. And, you know, are we going to get to a place they can set us down before that thing breaks or not? So that runs your arousal level up a little bit.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And, you know, place your shiver. And then, you know, after about 30 minutes, your legs are asleep. You can't walk because it's cut the circulation off. So even when you get to wherever they're going to set you down, you can't stand up. They have to come out and get you and pick you up and put you in the helicopter.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So, you know, in this one, I mean, we had rehearsed, we had practiced, uh, and one of the techniques of the prisoner snatch is if you have a trail that people are gonna move up and down in small groups, uhm, you practice setting up an ambush that has a dead spot in it. So, in the middle of the ambush usually,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, no one's gonna fire into that zone. The claymores are angled out so that it creates a dead space there. Uhm, you put a big block of C4 there.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That you're going to detonate. At the same time you set off the clay, everything's going to go off at the same time. And everybody's firing.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] In that dead spot, uhm, they didn't get hit with a bullet, but the concussion from that C4 stuns them. And, you know, we practiced, so it stuns them, and then I've got a guy with me that's designated as thumper.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Alright, so here's, he and I going, we're coming out of the bushes as soon as that stuff goes off.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And Thumper's job is to see this guy standing there counting days and just take him down. You know, thump him in the head and when he hits the ground, I'm gonna hit him in the thigh with the morphine charrette. So I'm gonna pump him full of morphine and then he'll do whatever we say. You know, he's just, you know, he's just calm. But in this case, we ended up killing that guy.


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[Assistant] Yes, but I took most, I mean a lot of people got hit. I didn't have anybody killed on one of my teams until I got to ROT Virginia.


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[Assistant] You know, the point man was killed, a lot of people were wounded, uh, right after I left Virginia, uhm, on their next mission, they just got hammered, lost some people, Americans got, uh,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Shot up really bad, both critical, so they were through with Song.


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[Assistant] It, and it is. I, I, people ask me all the time, you know, how do you survive that silence? You gotta be lucky.


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[Assistant] I mean, and you can call it luck, you can call it god, you can call it whatever you want, uh, but there's some kind of intervention.


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[Assistant] Me being hit and the other American being hit on those skids, I mean, I had just pushed back when that guy pulled the trigger, missed me, hit the other guy. And that happened on a regular basis where, you know,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] When I go speak, a lot of times people, if it has a, this kind of flavor to it, uh, if they say something about, you know, being in special forces or something, uh, it's not unusual for people to come out to me and say, I really thought you'd be taller.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And I said, if I'd been taller, I'd be dead. I'm alive because I'm not taller. My head has been creased so many times, I just wouldn't be here.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Michigan? Yeaah. Eventually we got to the point where uhm, I mean, Barswell was ready. He could have taken over before me. But uhm, so we got to the point where I had to leave to go do something different. And uhm, I told him, he's ready. He can do this. He's a spec four.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And it used to be that, uhm, neurologists thought that your, uhm, prefrontal cortex over here where you make decisions but it's also the part, uhm, that controls risk taking.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] They used to say, yeaah, it fully matures somewhere around 18 to 20 years old.


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[Assistant] And now we know most people don't mature until about 28 to 30 years old.


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[Assistant] And I don't mean that they, the person was immature, I'm just talking about part of the brain that controls risk taking.


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[Assistant] So, you're young. You think you're bulletproof. You think you can do anything. You think you're going to live forever. Man, this is a cool thing to do.


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[Assistant] There's a SOG mission, so I think there's something there, I just haven't had time to explore it.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] How old were you at this point?


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[Assistant] Four or five months older than Barzwell. And how old were you?


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[Assistant] I had just become twenty-two, which I didn't think I would make. And I thought for sure I won't cease twenty-three. Because, I mean, we obviously skipped over a lot of stuff here where I used a lot of cat lives up, so.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But yea, we were just a few months apart.


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[Assistant] They, Mack Vesog and somebody higher up, uhm,


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[Assistant] They decided that they needed to stop the influx of supplies and, and troops, uh, coming down from the north. And it was a, a place called the Mugiya Pass.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Big, deep valley, but there was a point where it really narrowed up and the banks were really steep and high. Uhm, and you know, so they had to funnel through that pass with their trucks and people and whatever to come on down into the south.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You know, you send a forward air controller out there. I mean, they see it. So they pull off and they hide because they know that forward air controller


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[Assistant] Has a bunch of L4s over here in orbit just waiting on him to find a target and they're going to come in. So they, somebody came up with the idea of what if we put a team out there?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Up on the ridge, on the crest of that valley looking down.


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[Assistant] And, and they'll be able to see far enough that


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[Assistant] When they're coming, they can call and say, okay, they're on their way, scrambling, you know, get the F-4 out here. And the F-4 can be on them like a chicken on a gene bird and just eat them up, you know. Uhm, so they decided,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Do this mission. We'll sneak people, sneak a team out there, put them on a ridge, let them set up there and just interdict this place like crazy. Uhm, but it has to be a super team.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Has to be officer-led, uhm, has to, eh, all Americans have to be approved by, by name by the President to do this because of where it is and what they're going to do.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, so they, they needed somebody, a 1-0 officer who could take over a team, uhm, that we had there and, you know, lead it. And they put me on it.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I wasn't happy about leaving Michigan, but I thought, well, this sounds cool.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Until I learned more about what they were going to do.


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[Assistant] Uhm, and I went on a visual recon. I went out and rode with a forward air controller while he was putting in, uh, airstrikes with F-4s and I'm looking at this place and I'm thinking, there's gotta be somebody up here.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It's the high ground. They're not leaving this place undefended. Yeaah. And when I brought that up they said no.


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[Assistant] If you don't want people to know you're there, you don't shoot at them. So, there's somebody, I'm sure there's somebody there. And anyway, so I...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I thought it was funny that we're gonna drop parachutes out in an area over away from there with blocks of ice in them.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So the parachutes will open, descend, hang in the trees, the ice will melt. So when the NVA go over there,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Anyway, uhm, so for four weeks we get ready to go do this thing and then finally somebody listened and said, no. Call it off. We're not gonna do it.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And Tilt talked to you in one of your podcasts about where he had this special mission. That he had to have an officer with him.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Later on after I left, it came back up again. They decided to do it.


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[Assistant] When the mission got called off because they discovered there were a bunch of people there.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Oh yeaah. I mean everybody already knew Dick Metas. Uhm, Metas had been, he got to the point where uhm, he'd done all his super secretive stuff and they said, okay, we're going to give you a choice. You can, we can promote you to Sergeant Major or we can promote you to Captain. Which one do you want?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And he, he worked out a deal that said, if you promote me to captain, then I get to stay. You can't.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You can't force me out. I get to stay in until I can retire.


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[Assistant] And Metas was an epic guy. Yeaah. I mean, so anyway, I came back from a mission and I was told that we got a new company commander.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And he wants to see you as soon as you get cleaned up. So, I, I got in to see him that night, it was probably 2200. And actually he was, the quarters were, it was a Quonset hut.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But I don't want to give up a team. And he said, you can keep a team. I don't care about that. Uh, but you're the XO and you're going to help me. And he said, to start with, tomorrow morning, uh, we're going to have a meeting with all the Americans in Recon Company, one at a time.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Because I've been going through the records and I think some of them's beret has gotten a little too heavy for them.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] We're gonna send them back to the train tomorrow. They don't need to be in SOG. They can go play with special forces, but they're not gonna be in SOG.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] What do you mean? He said there are people here who are not going out on missions very often, uh, and going out on missions and every time


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] They get shot off the LZ. They never actually complete a mission.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Metas is a hard dude. I'm hard. And you can tell when he's talking to you, he is this serious of a heart attack.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, he said, here, take this stack of files with you, go through them tonight, tomorrow morning at 0700, you know, they're gonna start coming in, you know, the Recon Orderly Room, and I'm gonna have a talk, you and I are gonna have a talk with them.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So you tell me which ones you think need to go home. So we met in there the next morning and, you know, I'm looking at the list that he's, the stack he's got there to eat plants to send back. I said, we're not going to have anybody left. And he said, I don't care.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] If we have to, you and I will lead all the missions.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You know, and my heart's not beating at this point, because I'm hearing how serious he is in his flaws. And he said, we'll do them all.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] We're going to be kind of busy, but anyway, he, he, he went and sent them all home, but he, he sent a lot of people back to the train that day, put them, he just told them, you, uh, helicopters leaving this afternoon, be on it. And he started shuttling people back down there.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You know, if you had been, you know, dragging your feet, finding ways not to go on missions, you were sick, you were...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] How many times have you been in contact? How many days have you been on the ground? And all this kind of stuff. And, you know, he had his own little equation and, you know, these people needed to find something else to do.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I mean, he was hard. Big time ranger, uh, special ops mindset. And he started looking around right away. There's some things here we gotta clean up. We should have a nice isolation area.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] When a team gets a mission, you go into isolation. That's the way it's done, the Special Forces. That's the doctrine, and we're not doing it. Why would we not do that here?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] A lot of things like that. Training, uhm, in fact, you know, he told me, let's, the next morning he said, you meet me down on the beach the next, you know, tomorrow morning. The beach was just right outside the concertina. So I met him down there and he said, we're gonna go for a little run.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Considerably older than me at that point. So we take off down the beach at about a seven minute pace. And I'm thinking, oh my god, I haven't been running. I mean.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So, when we get about the two mile point, you know, I tell him, I said, sir, I'm gonna...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I'm gonna go ahead and turn around here and go back and take care of some things. You do that, Lieutenant. I'm gonna keep running. And he kept going and I'd look back every once in a while until he disappeared out of sight down a beach and he's by himself and he's unarmed.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Physical fitness was a big thing for him. Uhm, you keep your body sharp, you keep your mind sharp.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And, you know, we started to have PT in the mornings for the teams that were not out in the field. Things like that. So he made a lot of changes. How did that affect the attitude around the camp? After his house cleaning at the beginning, everybody else says, yes sir, whatever you want.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I mean, we need to do this stuff and we need to do it right. Uhm, and, you know, he was out there. I mean, and everybody knew. I mean, he's a guy that would say, uh, you've been out twice to get a prisoner. I'm going with you this time and show you how to get one. And he'd go ahead and get one and bring it back. I mean, whatever the mission was, he'd go do it. And then say, nah, I want the rest of you to do it that way.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Roger that. Whatever you say. So uhm, he said, you can keep a team, but here's how we're gonna start. We've got a group coming over. The first group in Okinawa were sending people over, temporary duty. They'd send four teams of Americans over. And he said, I want you to train them.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So when they get here, you get with them and their teams and you put them through some training on how to run these operations and what to do. And then I want you to go out with them, uh, with each team. You take them out, you walk right alongside, you know, the one zero. I guess we call that skin in the game.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You know, I was going out on regular races with these guys.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You know, particularly once I got them trained and, you know, we were going into, uhm,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The Marine Force Recon's area of operations.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You know, they would put their teams out there and within two or three days, you know, they'd get run out.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] We were going out and the objective was to stay seven days.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Excuse me, we, you know, we'd eventually make contact. Sometimes we'd make contact before that, but it was a live fire, you know, shoot back target kind of, uh,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, cause the targets shoot back. I mean, and we had several of them wounded, you know, from going out on those missions.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But, you know, they always did a great job. I mean, when they were there, they did a great job. So uhm, he kept me busy with that, but so I was technically still going out, uh, with teams. I wasn't happy, but I said, I want real SOG missions. I don't want to, you know.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] No, no, those are just day to day stuff. You gotta do it. You know, try not to get killed while you're doing it, but yeaah. You just gotta do that. And, you know, ironically enough,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That was very similar to what it was like when I came home and went to the ranger department and became a ranger instructor.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That's what I did. I was walking along, you know, with a team of ranger students, grading and evaluating the patrol leaders. So, except the targets didn't shoot back.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah. When we finished with the Snakebites, and, uh, he said, okay, I got one more mission for you before you get your real team back again. And he said, we've got a team, uh, that we want to convert over to a Vietnamese-led team.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So, there's gonna be a team that's gonna operate with no Americans on it.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] We've got, uhm, a Vietnamese army captain that's coming in here. So he'll be the team leader. And we've got R.T. Virginia, who has nobody right now. Uhm, so I want you to train them with him.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And then you can, you know, take him out on a mission and make sure he does okay. And if he does okay, then you know, he will.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I don't know. There was just something about them. We bonded very quickly. And then they started saying, we want you.


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[Assistant] I said, it can't be me. It's gotta be this guy. So we're gonna go train. And, and, uh, they were good. And I liked them. We got along well.


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[Assistant] Uhm, but they did not like the captain. So, in the end, Meadow said, okay, you take the team. You know, you spend all this time with them, you take them and go with them.


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[Assistant] I, I don't know, I'd have to go ahead and count them now, but yeaah. I mean that was the last team, you know, that I was 1-0.


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[Assistant] Sometimes you went out looking for a large unit. That was the mission. You'd go find them.


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[Assistant] And once you find them, now you've got them located, you bring the world, I mean you introduce them to, you know, what we call later, chalk and all.


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[Assistant] I mean, you bring all this stuff home because they can't get away once you know where they are.


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[Assistant] You go do that, uhm, and I think, I had an in-country mission.


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[Assistant] Uh, the suicide team, uh, would be the one that was gonna go


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[Assistant] Make contact as soon as possible. Go find him. Pounce on him.


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[Assistant] Do as much damage as you could, bring in the world, get extracted and go away. But the other team's still out there.


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[Assistant] And nobody knows that they're out there now. They think, you know, that was who got extracted. So, you know, it was, so we went out and, you know, sure enough, it didn't take us long to find, you know, a platoon or so of people.


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[Assistant] And, you know, so we were on line and we opened fire on them. I mean, we would normally just start out like that, but I could see them and, you know, and I started shooting at them, you know, and they started shooting back. And it was funny that what happened, we were on line.


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[Assistant] And as soon as all, all the, the bullets started coming back, it was zoom. They were all right here with me. And I was, what are you doing? And I said, spread out.


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[Assistant] You can't be here with me. I mean, you know, 1B40 take us all out. So I had to smoke them a little bit and spread back out.


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[Assistant] You know, so we, we hammered that group which grew once we started hitting them. You know, and then we just kept bringing in enough air power to eventually we suppressed it enough that, you know, we could get it extracted.


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[Assistant] So that was, but we'd already, uhm, we had been in contact once before the in-country mission. But, yeaah, I mean, that was a little issue, but we got that resolved. You know, maintaining the dispersion and following whatever the immediate action drill was. But, uhm, they were a good team.


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[Assistant] They, they reacted normally very well under fire.


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[Assistant] This is Jocko Podcast number 211 with Echo Charles and me, Jocko Willink. Good evening Echo. Good evening. And also, joining us again


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[Assistant] Is Dave Burke. Good evening Dave. Good evening. And we are going to roll right back into


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[Assistant] The book, Leadership Strategy and Tactics because...


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[Assistant] We only made it halfway through on the first attempt. So, the first part that we did make it through was called strategy. That was the strategy part, and now we are getting into the tactics part. Section one. Part two, section one. And it starts off with this section right here. Becoming a leader.


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[Assistant] How to succeed as a new leader. Once you have been selected as a leader, it is time to lead.


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[Assistant] What is the best way to do this? Like many things, starting off on the right foot is simple but not easy. Here are some fundamental rules to keep in mind as you take command. One, be humble.


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[Assistant] It is an honor to be in a leadership position. Your team is counting on you to make the right decisions. Two, don't act like you know everything. You don't. The team knows that.


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[Assistant] Four, treat people with respect. Regardless of rank, everyone is a human being and plays an important role in the team. Treat them that way. Take care of your people, and they will take care of you.


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[Assistant] Five, take ownership of failures and mistakes. Six, pass credit for success up and down the chain of command. Seven, work hard.


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[Assistant] As the leader, you should be working harder than anyone else on the team. No job is beneath you. 8. Have integrity. Do what you say, say what you do.


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[Assistant] Don't lie up or down the chain of command. Nine, be balanced. Extreme actions and opinions are usually not good. Ten, be decisive. When it is time to make a decision, make one. Eleven, build relationships. That is your main goal as a leader.


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[Assistant] A team is a group of people who have relationships and trust one another.


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[Assistant] Otherwise, it is just a disconnected incoherent cluster of people.


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[Assistant] Lastly, get the job done. That is the purpose of a leader.


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[Assistant] To lead a team in accomplishing a mission. If you don't accomplish the mission, you fail as a leader. Performance counts.


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[Assistant] These are straightforward rules. They make sense on paper, but they can be hard to remember and implement in a leadership environment. Review them often. Look at them in the morning before meetings and when you are about to make things happen.


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[Assistant] Review them before you go to sleep at night. Soon they will become second nature. But if you find yourself struggling, pause, re-read these rules, and ensure that you are following them. So there you go.


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[Assistant] Straightforward. Because how many times


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[Assistant] Has this question come to me? Just took over a team, just starting, just got promoted. It comes over and over and over and over again.


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[Assistant] So, these are very simple, very straightforward forward rules to, to abide by.


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[Assistant] Oh, I'm talking to the new guys, right? I'm talking to someone that hasn't been in a leadership position. I'm talking to someone that's just about to take over. And when you're saying that, I'm thinking, yeah, yeah, he's right. Not just about the new guy, he's right about me. 100% right about me.


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[Assistant] So yeaah, this is becoming a leader, but you might want to just take a look at these from time to time and see where you're at. Roll, skip forward a little bit here. When you are not chosen,


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[Assistant] When you're not chosen to be a leader, there are times when you will not be selected as a leader. Perhaps they promote someone else from within your team. Perhaps they bring someone from outside your team or outside the organization to lead. When that happens, you might feel frustrated or angry because you were not chosen. Keep those feelings to yourself.


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[Assistant] Instead of allowing yourself to become angry and frustrated, take the opportunity to do a good, honest assessment of yourself to see why you were not chosen.


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[Assistant] After you've done that, and after you have given yourself time to calm down.


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[Assistant] You can even ask your supervisors why you are not selected for promotion. Of course, this must be done with tact. Don't say, hey boss, why wasn't I selected for a promotion?


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[Assistant] I'm just as good, if not better than the person you gave the role to. How's that gonna go over?


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[Assistant] Instead, say, hey boss, I wanted to get some feedback from you. As you know, there was a recent promotion here and I eventually want to move up in it more.


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[Assistant] Senior leadership position too. I wanna know if there's anything I can focus on to do better, so I'm more qualified and more prepared to lead when the next opportunity comes. Can you help me out boss?


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[Assistant] I mean think about what that does. Somebody says that to me.


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[Assistant] You know, yeah, there's a little deviation from the, from the correlation of jujitsu in life. That's a little deviation because really with jujitsu, we're 100% not asking about belts. 100%.


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[Assistant] But check this out, what if instead of saying, hey echo, I, you didn't promote me to purple belt?


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[Assistant] What can I work on so I can get promoted to Purple Belt? That's one thing. What if, two days after the promotion, after I let Mike, after I calmed down, I was like, hey Echo,


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[Assistant] I'm looking to improve. Is there any holes you see in my game that I can work on?


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[Assistant] Yeah. And then you know what you have to do? It's the same thing, but so actually the correlation is back on track. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Jiu-Jitsu in life. Cause same thing when you, when you ask, even the way I worded that right there.


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[Assistant] Take the opportunity to do a good honest assessment of yourself to see why you're not chosen. And then after you have done that,


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[Assistant] That's when you go, if you can then deem it appropriate. And then what's interesting, and this also makes sense, on both fronts,


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[Assistant] And when you receive that feedback, actually listen to it. After all, you just asked for it.


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[Assistant] And you and I were talking about Echo the other day, not on the podcast, but just in life. There's this whole thing where the ability to detach is what allows you to see your ego.


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[Assistant] The ability to detach is what allows you to say, oh yeaah, I'm not as good as I think I am. Or as what it looks like from my perspective. So this is what made me think of this the way you just said, if you're caught off guard, if you're caught off guard and you don't get promoted, clearly,


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[Assistant] Of ego, of the ability to detach, and of cognitive ability that Dick Thompson talked about. Those things are all this, this thing that's all wrapped up in one.


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[Assistant] If you talk to someone that has a big ego, their ability to detach is tiny.


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[Assistant] Because if they were able to detach, they'd be able to take a step back and see how out of line their


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[Assistant] Ego was. And they'd see how other people are perceiving them. That's the crazy thing about someone with a big ego. They don't even see how other people perceive them.


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[Assistant] Words, yes. There's a lot in the words that I'm definitely not covering right now to give people kind of an overall feeling, uh, of what is in the book.


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[Assistant] If you, if you're not really into reading. Okay, I had to, I had to cover this too. Which is overcoming a grudge.


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[Assistant] Going to the book. There will be times in your career when there will be, when you will be the one promoted into a leadership position and placed above your former peers. This can be challenging, but when handled correctly, the challenge can be mitigated. Most of your former peers will accept the situation and get on board. But sometimes there are people who get bitter and resentful.


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[Assistant] That they weren't promoted. And they show that bitterness.


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[Assistant] There are some ways to mitigate a bad attitude from your former peers. At first, don't try and force your rank down their throats. Tell them you appreciate their experience and you'll be looking to them to help lead.


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[Assistant] Let them come up with plans and ideas. Ask for their input.


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[Assistant] If they come up with a solid plan, let them run with it. When the opportunity arises, put them in charge of some tasks, projects and missions. This shows them that you trust them and you do truly appreciate their experience and knowledge. And if they can put their egos in check, the situation can be overcome.


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[Assistant] But also be advised that some people will be hypersensitive and see you putting them in charge of something as condescending.


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[Assistant] Or as proof that you don't know what you're doing and that they should have been promoted, not you. Isn't that an interesting little dynamic, like one end of the spectrum to the other? Like if I say, hey Echo, you know, would you mind running this? There's one person that goes, yeah, yeah, now he has put me in charge of these little projects, cause he's promoted, he thinks he's the man.


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[Assistant] So that's one negative attitude. The other negative attitude is when I'm like, hey Echo, do you think you can run this project? You're like, yeah, yeah, I can run it cause you don't know what you're doing.


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[Assistant] So, and by the way, let me get this into, when


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[Assistant] When their pouting and bad attitude become apparent, recognize that the likely reason they were not promoted


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[Assistant] Is because they likely lack the humility and maturity, maturity to be a leader. If that's the case, continue to be cordial, treat them with respect, and try and build a relationship, but don't expect rapid improvement from them. This will be a long process. You are going to have to be patient. Make sure you don't let them...


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[Assistant] Distract you from the mission or the rest of the team. So there's another classic example. The person that doesn't get promoted, the reason they don't get promoted, because they lack self-awareness, they don't know how to detach, they've got a giant ego, and all that stuff just feeds into this problem.


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[Assistant] I think this is, this next section I'm skipping too, might be my favorite subtitle in the book. It's called, Don't Go Overboard Rambo.


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[Assistant] And here we go. And this, this, you know, uh, much of the specific subjects to cover in this book are directly from questions from the podcast.


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[Assistant] This is one of those questions that I got asked early on and I was like, oh yea, I forgot about that guy. Cause we all know this, we all know this John J Rambo guy.


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[Assistant] What does that mean? It means don't run around saying, I'm the leader, I'm in charge, listen to me, I'll make all the decisions. This attitude will offend many people. It's the equivalent of, look at me, I'm important and it doesn't go over well. Rambo might be a cool movie character.


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[Assistant] But charging out alone without regard for others doesn't work in a team environment. Saying, I'm the leader, follow me, can offend people's egos.


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[Assistant] In their minds, perhaps they're thinking you don't deserve to be in charge. There's a good chance they're even thinking that they're the one who should be in charge. So you barking at them that you are the leader is not a good idea. And when you do make some kind of a mistake, which you will,


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[Assistant] They'll be ready to pounce on it. Leadership in most cases should be subtle.


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[Assistant] I remember seeing these young junior officers in the SEAL teams that like either they would, they went through ROTC or they,


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[Assistant] You know, the Naval Academy or whatever, whatever they came from, wherever they got the commission, but somewhere along the way, they like took leadership classes, right? And they were into it. They were into it.


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[Assistant] You're t- as an instructor at the Naval Academy or at the basic school or- or at the company command course in the army. You're- what you're telling these guys, hey, you're the leader. You're the leader. Like leadership is important. Leadership is the most important thing on the battlefield. We say that all the time at S.L.A.M. Front.


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[Assistant] We're, we're programming everyone. That leadership is the most important thing and you're a leader and you just step up and lead. So, it's, it's,


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[Assistant] Without realizing that they're going overboard. They're getting crazy.


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[Assistant] So, there's been some times, some moments.


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[Assistant] We'll go into a little bit more detail here. Leadership skills. This is section two. When to step up and lead.


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[Assistant] There are times, I'll jump a little bit into it. There are times when a leadership vacuum occurs. No one is taking charge of a situation. Bad circumstances are unfolding. But no one is doing anything about it. No one is leading.


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[Assistant] That is a moment where someone needs to jump in and take charge. You will see that people are waiting for it.


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[Assistant] They're waiting for leadership. And when you step up with a simple plan and give clear direction, they will accept that direction and execute. So that's what you said earlier, Dave. On the last podcast, you were talking about that. Like, when there's a leadership vacuum, there's a void.


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[Assistant] And you step in and make a call, like people will be ready to execute. Which, which is absolutely true. Going back to the book, but it isn't always that simple.


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[Assistant] If you are the only one who has recognized the threat of inaction, if you are the only one who recognizes the leadership void,


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[Assistant] Then other people on the team might not be waiting for someone to start leading. They might think everything is okay. So if you jump up and start barking orders, they might be taken aback by it. They might be offended or feel you're stepping on their toes.


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[Assistant] So that's a very interesting dynamic. And when I was writing this part of the book,


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[Assistant] And I forget what triggered me, I think it was probably a question from the podcast, to really start thinking about all these situations that I've been in.


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[Assistant] Where being detached, having, you know, stepping back and watching these things unfold and then seeing even detached from myself where I'm watching when I'm gonna step in and then watching when I was running training, watching platoon commanders, you know, jump in there and start to take control.


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[Assistant] When the moment wasn't, they were close, but the moment wasn't ready for it. And this is a matter, this could be a matter of seconds. It could be a matter of seconds. When the platoon chief and the LPO and the machine gunners all think they know what's going on, and then all of a sudden you jump in and say, hey, we need to fall back.


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[Assistant] The first response you're gonna get is, HELL NO!


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[Assistant] That is a tactic I used as a leader throughout my career. Of course, if there was an immediate threat that needed to be addressed instantaneously and no one was doing anything, I would step up immediately and make a call.


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[Assistant] I would fill the leadership void. However, if there was a problem unfolding a little more slowly, I wouldn't rush to take charge.


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[Assistant] I would let the problem develop a little bit. I would look around, detach mentally, and truly observe the situation. I would confirm that what I was seeing was correct. I would allow an opportunity for someone else to step up and fill the leadership vacuum. And if someone else did, then I would initially assess their plan and the directions they were giving. If they were giving good guidance, I would support them.


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[Assistant] If they gave bad guidance, I would continue to consider what a better plan was so I could give corrections when the time was right.


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[Assistant] Was, you know, I was saying, listen, if you're doing it right,


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[Assistant] You're winning a battle and the other person doesn't even know that there was a battle going on, right? You won and, and then you have to, you have to control your ego enough that you don't say, look, I just won, you didn't even know it. Cause then you just threw it out the window.


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[Assistant] People have to un- you can't do that so much that they don't recognize you as the leader because now there's gonna be times when they look to turn to someone and they don't turn to you, right? Which can be a problem. So, we have to be a little bit careful but-


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[Assistant] That is so rare that you could actually pull that off. And the reason it's rare to pull that off is because


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[Assistant] They require times when the leader's known. And so those times are enough, few and far between. If it's seven, like we talked about on the last podcast, if it's seven times in every three years,


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[Assistant] Does, is there anyone that's walking around like, well, you know, I doubt Jocko, he doesn't even seem like he knows what's going on anymore. Like, there's no one walking around saying that. But the leadership is subtle.


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[Assistant] I'm ready to just, I'm doing all this myself.


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[Assistant] And that's the way you want it to be. You want to win without them knowing you're fighting.


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[Assistant] They wouldn't notice because they were not detached. Their minds were absorbed in the situation. Since I practiced being detached, I wasn't lost in the details of what was going on. I was mentally in a different place looking at the scenario unfold from a virtual distance which allowed me to see problems more quickly. That still doesn't mean I would jump right in.


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[Assistant] By letting a little more time pass, by letting that leadership void linger just a little bit longer, everyone else would begin to notice it. They would recognize there was a problem. Since that time passed and now everyone else knew there was a problem, when I gave orders on how to solve it, people would listen. And they would execute.


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[Assistant] Another reason to pause before jumping into a leadership vacuum as soon as you see it is to make sure that no one else is jumping in there.


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[Assistant] They have to take precious time to sort out which person is actually gonna lead and which one is gonna stand down.


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[Assistant] When I see the void, I pause, look around, assess if anyone else is going to step up and lead. While I do this, the problem grows pretty much very soon. Everyone notices the problem. I see that.


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[Assistant] And then step up and make a call, a call that everyone knows needs to be made.


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[Assistant] What, this is a real obvious answer, but it's not so obvious when you're in the heat of the moment. Something's going on.


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[Assistant] And I make a call and Echo makes a call at the same time. What do I do?


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[Assistant] Let me lead. Immediately defer. Alright. Hey, cool. I got you. I mean, as long as I assess your plan in a half a second and go good enough. Alright, cool. I got you. You're right. Go.


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[Assistant] That is the same thing. It is the same thing where both people are going, alright I'm going to make a call. And that is why, yes you're right. That's why even when I did this


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[Assistant] Four second roleplay, I was like, you're right, you got it! Take it, like, I'm gonna make it that clear.


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[Assistant] We might want to do a podcast on that. Like just that, right? Just supermarket entries.


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[Assistant] There's also an inverse to the leadership vacuum and that this is one you see a lot as well, which is.


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[Assistant] Too many people try and lead. Everyone wants to offer their opinion, give advice, and weigh in on the decision. This can inhibit the decision making process and the leader's ability to lead.


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[Assistant] And then I go on to talk about dispersion and the way that breaks out tactically, but, and how you solve that problem. What you do when you got a bunch of people that are all trying to lead at the same time.


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[Assistant] Is one where I was like, eh, do I really need to put this section in here? Does it really need to be done?


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[Assistant] And then I went, like, and worked with a client. I'm like, yeah, I'm gonna put it in there.


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[Assistant] It's called don't take things personally. This may seem obvious, but I see it all the time where people take things personally. Don't take anything personally. It's hard to do this. You have to fight your ego to avoid taking things personally. Even when people ask for critique points, they often get mad when they actually hear them. Don't allow yourself to do that. Don't take criticism personally.


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[Assistant] Not about the plan you came up with. Not about the idea you had. Not about the presentation you gave. Not about the decision you made. Even when your biggest rival.


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[Assistant] The last person you want to hear from has something to say. Listen. Even when someone you don't think is on your level, someone who isn't even close to having the knowledge, position, or authority to give you one iota of feedback wants to speak, even then, do yourself a favor and just listen. Detach.


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[Assistant] And listen to what they have to say, and from an objective mindset, see if you can learn anything at all from their commentary. Then apply it. And say thank you. I know that stings, and get over yourself. This takes humility, but it'll make you better.


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[Assistant] Everyone else in the room listens and goes, dang, like he's so confident that he can listen to a new guy.


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[Assistant] And to, to the other thing that you said, which is no insignificant matter, what that new guy thinks of you,


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[Assistant] General George S. Patton famously told his troops not to dig in. He wanted them to advance, advance, advance. You can't advance if you're dug in. Patton's idea of not digging in actually translates incredibly well from a leadership perspective, and it is one that I always kept in the back of my mind. When you have an idea, thought,


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[Assistant] When I was in a leadership position in the SEAL teams, there were always a lot of different ideas floating around. How to execute a mission, what plan to use, which tactics were best. And like many organizations, no one could ever seem to agree on anything.


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[Assistant] This is not unique to the SEAL teams. People in different organizations everywhere all do the same thing. They tend to think their idea is the best. And they get hung up arguing about it.


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[Assistant] And what really makes for a horrible situation is when people not only think their idea is the best, but they dig in to protect it. They aren't going to give any ground. They cannot concede a single inch in admitting theirs is not the best idea of all time.


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[Assistant] The more they come under attack, the deeper they dig in. They will not change their minds.


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[Assistant] To translate this back to tactical terms, when people dig in to defend their ideas, not only can they not advance them,


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[Assistant] They also cannot maneuver and change their thoughts. They're dug in and they can't move.


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[Assistant] It was awful to see hours of fruitless arguments which were not ever driving toward the best solution, but driving toward the leader's own solution.


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[Assistant] Leaders often painted themselves into a corner so that they eventually would be left with no choice except to order their subordinates to follow their plan.


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[Assistant] So, and I go into some more details about this, but.


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[Assistant] My tactics around this. I always avoided this. I would seldom dig in and get over committed to my idea, my plan, or my opinion.


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[Assistant] When someone had an opposing point of view, I didn't look for ways to prove my idea was better.


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[Assistant] Instead, I looked to see which idea was actually better if my idea wasn't good. I conceded and accepted theirs.


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[Assistant] If the ideas were relatively equal, I would defer to theirs so they had ownership. If my idea was far superior, then the differences were usually obvious enough to convince the person with the opposing view that they were wrong. And I would never have to admit that I was wrong because I never claimed that I was right.


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[Assistant] Oh, this was at the muster. Yea, at the muster. And I asked everyone, I forget what spurred the question. I said, how often do you all, how often do you guys think I'm wrong?


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[Assistant] And, uh, you know, when I cover it in the book, I'm not gonna cover it right now, but I do talk about when do you dig it.


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[Assistant] When are you not gonna change? And there are situations like that and you gotta be cognizant of that. So.


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[Assistant] But the part that most people screw up is they dig in on the dumbest things, the worst ideas or even decent ideas but they don't want to maneuver and they just end up


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[Assistant] I do, I do a section on iterative decision making, which is, which is really important for people to understand.


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[Assistant] To th- to understand how to iteratively make decisions.


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[Assistant] Is, is, is a tool that people can use, and it's not the right tool all the time, but it's a tool a large percentage of the time, and if you understand how to do it, it is


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[Assistant] It changes the process and improves the results of your decision making.


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[Assistant] Helped me so much, and this is what's interesting about it, right? So, iterative decision making in a nutshell is like we're gonna make small decisions based on what we suspect. And some people,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Consider that to be indecisive, right? Here's what's funny. My reputation in the SEAL teams and now is of being extremely decisive.


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[Assistant] Like people just think, oh, like, oh yeaah, he's gonna make the call. And what's funny is, I am!


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[Assistant] And the reason I got that reputation is because when there was a decision to be made on the battlefield or during training,


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[Assistant] I was gonna make a decision and it was gonna come and it was gonna be there and everyone was gonna know it really quick when it needed to happen. But it would be the small decision that was leading in the direction that I thought overarching was correct. But man is it a, it's a,


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[Assistant] It's, again, it's almost like a trick, you know? It's a tactic, that's what it is. But it's a really nice little tactic about what we're gonna do, how we're gonna move forward.


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[Assistant] Hey, I'm telling you make a decision. Make the smallest decision you can. That's moving in the direction you think.


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[Assistant] Here's another little section that people will, this will flank some people.


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[Assistant] It's called Conform to Influence. Here we go to the book. As a new guy I was extremely motivated. I wanted to train as hard as possible to prepare for war.


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[Assistant] But this was 1992, and there was no war happening. The first Gulf War ended six months earlier and lasted only 72 hours. The Vietnam War, where SEALs had earned their fierce reputation that made me want to be a SEAL, had ended 20 years earlier. This was full-on peacetime Navy. But I was young, and figured my war was coming, so I wanted to be ready for it.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So I did things a little bit differently from most of the other people at Seal Team 1. I got to work early. I did our team conditioning runs with heavy boots on instead of running shoes. I wore a rucksack with a 40 pound sandbag in it when we ran the obstacle course. I did night ocean swims alone with my web gear on. I tried to do everything just a little bit harder.


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[Assistant] Then, what was normally required. I thought I was doing the right thing. After all, I was preparing for war.


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[Assistant] Sure, some of the other new guys who knew me understood my attitude because they went through buds with me. They knew I was just fired up. But for some of the older guys, but some of the older guys thought I was going overboard.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] For them, have, after having been in the SEAL teams for 6, 8, 10, or even a dozen years, they knew that sustained performance as a SEAL wasn't a sprint, it was a marathon.


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[Assistant] But for us new guys coming straight out of buds, we were healthy and ready to charge. And in my mind, I was personally trying to take it to the next level. It didn't take long before I started to hear grumbling from some of those more experienced guys. Little comments started to let me know they weren't seeing things quite the same way I was. Here comes Rambo. Or, look at this tough guy. At first, it sounded like they were joking.


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[Assistant] But the tone got stronger, and before long I realized they did not like what I was doing.


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[Assistant] Now, it would have been very easy for me to assess the situation and cast the blame on them. I could have said to myself, what is wrong with them?


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[Assistant] I'm the one who's working extra hard, they are being weak, I'm hardcore, much more hardcore


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[Assistant] As a young SEAL, still teeming with confidence after completing the world's hardest military training.


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[Assistant] I could easily rationalize my own behavior and at the same time denigrate the other members of my platoon. Especially because in my platoon some of the older guys weren't in the best physical condition.


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[Assistant] But then I thought about it from their perspective. Who am I? I am a new guy. I've never been on deployment before. I had never been through a workup before. Who was I to judge them? What did I know?


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[Assistant] Then I thought about it from a team perspective. We are a platoon. We are supposed to be a team. To work together. And here I was alienating myself from the team.


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[Assistant] There was a rift forming between some of the older guys in the platoon and me. That was wrong.


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[Assistant] It was disrupting the unity of the platoon, which negatively impacted our operational readiness. So you know what I did? I backed off.


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[Assistant] I did the extra work on my own time, but when I was with the platoon I tried to act like the rest of the guys. To put it bluntly, I conformed.


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[Assistant] That would be wrong. If I were to hold my ground on this, if I were to never give in, it would just mean that I thought my personal feelings were more important than the team.


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[Assistant] All of that is obviously the wrong attitude to have. Let there be no doubt, the most important thing in a team is the team.