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[Assistant] He crawled a few more feet forward, still prone, looked around. Every hole at Hereford was occupied by an American.


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[Assistant] Captain Warren and the company had returned to the hill. Sergeant Owen L. Lewis and James W. Edwards came over to help Kirby to his feet. No words passed between them.


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[Assistant] They were not merely choked up. They were sobbing convulsively.


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[Assistant] Later, Warren said if my men cried, it was because they were so damn mad. Kirby knew better than that.


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[Assistant] Kirby told them where to look for Spranza not knowing that the company had found him on the way up or that he'd already been evacuated from Hereford by the chopper. Stucky appeared about that moment and he and Kirby were flown to Anke aboard the same Huey. It was some time later that Johnson came in. When the hill went quiet, he started crawling upward.


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[Assistant] Days later, he was still in a state of shock. Kirby, taken to the hospital of his own choice, returned to the company duty. Within 10 days, still convalescent.


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[Assistant] Unlike Johnson, he was fully coherent with his emotions under tight control till he spoke of seeing the company in tears.


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[Assistant] Warren and the company had made that frantic uphill climb to Hereford in exactly 35 minutes. The descent over the same trail had taken them an hour longer.


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[Assistant] If a record march, it was too little of a veil. They saw dead Americans in all but six fox holes and thought at first, Sprenza was the only survival, survivor.


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[Assistant] The platoon weapons had been taken. Everybody had been stripped of personal effects.


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[Assistant] Warren deployed two of his platoons for a 600 yard sweep to the eastward along both flanks of the ridge. The hunt proved almost barren of result. Though blood trails were numerous and heavily marked, only five bodies were found and they all too obviously had been felled by artillery. The fanatics must have hauled away a larger count of dead than was lost to the company.


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[Assistant] Then mysteriously, how the trap had been sprung was easy enough to figure out in retrospect, this enemy force of about 200.


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[Assistant] Was much too fresh to have followed in along Warren's wake.


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[Assistant] As he came over the trail from hill 766. The time interval was not long enough to have permitted ascent from lower levels toward which Warren had kept moving.


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[Assistant] Had Warren stayed in full strength on Hereford, there might have been no fight. He carried out his orders.


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[Assistant] And the reason I didn't mention the author of this book is because I didn't want to cloud your impression. The author was...


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[Assistant] I talked about him on podcast 142 where we covered his book Men Against Fire and you heard him use that phrase in here. And SLA Marshall was a famous


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[Assistant] Military man, we'll say. And he ended up being a general, he was a historian, he was a writer, he was a reservist, so he was a civilian writer and wrote a bunch of articles and worked for a newspaper.


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[Assistant] But he's also a very controversial figure, and Hackworth...


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[Assistant] Tor did a tour with him in Vietnam and kind of reveals the guy's character He was very egotistical and he also


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[Assistant] He also made claims about his experiences in war that were not true.


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[Assistant] That supported his own theories and his own hypotheses and


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[Assistant] You know, in Men Against Fire, there's a lot of people that went back and broke down what he wrote in that book. And we covered that book on this podcast, like I said, because we didn't want to throw away the baby with the bathwater. But,


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[Assistant] When I read this portion of Battles in the Monsoon, this was...


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[Assistant] It didn't paint Kirby in such a bad light as this, uh, as the, as the manual did. Which made him just sound like a complete, you know.


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[Assistant] Lackadaisical guy that just let all the stuff go and didn't have any discipline and didn't follow any good protocols.


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[Assistant] Even though he would go and interview people, like those quotes he's getting, he would interview people, absolutely. But still, he's gonna, he's gonna make that story kinda the way he wants it. And,


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[Assistant] And so I did some more research and I found another article.


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[Assistant] I found an article on a website called historynet.com and there's an article written by a guy named Michael Christie.


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[Assistant] Michael Christie. So Michael Christie enlisted in the Marine Corps out of high school. And then he joined the army.


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[Assistant] Yeah, became an officer, probably went to college, became an officer, served in the 5th Special Forces Group in Vietnam from 1967 to 1968. And in 1970,


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[Assistant] He was the commander of C Company, 1st Battalion, 12th Cavalry Regiment. The very same company involved in the battle at LZ Hereford. So he wasn't there, but...


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[Assistant] And he eventually retired and became a writer and he produced a bunch of documentaries and he made a series of leadership videos for the military. So the military hired him to make leadership videos.


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[Assistant] Some of those were hosted by Lee Marvin, which is pretty cool. Uh, but he wrote this article. And this article is called Last Stand at LZ Hereford.


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[Assistant] Soldiers shield themselves as best they can from the dirt and debris stirred up by a Huey squeezing into tight one ship landing zone around noon.


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[Assistant] The pilot touches down and two officers jump from the helicopter and land in a large mud puddle.


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[Assistant] One GI chuckles, pokes his buddy, and laughs quietly at the officers in fresh jungle fatigues stamping the mud off their polished boots.


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[Assistant] A dirty unshaven captain greets them wearing torn jungle fatigues and mud covered boots toting an M16. So there's Warren. So now we're starting to get a little better picture. You know, you've got


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[Assistant] The stereotypical sort of officers rolling in with their brand new fatigues and polished boots and outcomes. Warren, who's been out in the jungle now for a while on this justice operation. Hmm.


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[Assistant] The trio moves to the edge of the landing zone where towering elephant grass offers a bit of protection from


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[Assistant] The early afternoon sun, the major unfolds a map and the three begin discussing a mission. Within minutes, there is strong disagreement over the plan.


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[Assistant] Lieutenant Colonel Rutland Beard, Commander of the 1st Battalion, 12th Cavalry, 1st Cavalry Division.


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[Assistant] And his operations officer, Major William Roll, are insisting that Captain Don Warren, Charlie Company Commander,


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[Assistant] Leave his 20 man mortar platoon alone on landing zone Hereford to provide fire support to Warren's company as it moves down the steep precipice toward the valley below.


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[Assistant] On keeping at least one rifle squad behind to provide security. Sir, my mortar platoon is down to half strength because of malaria and has only M16s and a couple M79s. If I leave behind a rifle squad they will have at least one machine gun for security.


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[Assistant] Beard tells Warren that the mortar platoon will be on the hill for less than an hour before it will be lifted out and taken to another LZ. Warren's eyes lock on Beard's. Anything can happen in hours, sir.


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[Assistant] Irritated at Warren's near insubordination. Beard Warren's captain, if you don't do as I order, you will be in more trouble than you can imagine. Is that understood? Warren hesitates a moment before answering tersely. Yes, Colonel. Will that be all, sir?


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[Assistant] Beard indicates yes and Warren spins on his heels and walks over to his rifle platoon leaders to pass the orders. Beard takes a sideward glance at Roll, shakes his head and returns to his helicopter.


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[Assistant] So, automatically we see where this is going. And by the way, look, I love this book, uh, the, the, the, the squad leader makes a difference, but the squad leader's getting put in a bad situation right now.


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[Assistant] Warren has every reason for concern about the safety of his understrength mortar platoon. Hereford's topography makes it nearly impossible for even a fully armed rifle company to defend it from a determined enemy. It is a small saddle, 165 yards.


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[Assistant] Long by 45 yards wide is partially encircled by tall elephant grass. Beyond the elephant grass is completely surrounded by rugged, unforgiving landscape. The most hostile being the steep razorback ridge line reaching northeast.


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[Assistant] Toward a towering mountain nearly a thousand feet high at the base of the ridge, Hereford's northern boundary begins to slope gently downhill.


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[Assistant] Continues on explaining what we already know. Hereford is also the center of fierce fighting that began seven days earlier on May 15th. So now they give a little background.


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[Assistant] To this, this whole Operation Crazy Horse. When word of that battle filtered down to first cavalry leaders, they then decided the next day to conduct a major operation in the area.


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[Assistant] And that's what they're doing. Sitting on the edge of his foxhole.


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[Assistant] On LZ Hereford, Staff Sergeant Robert Kirby watches as Captain Warren leads three platoons from his rifle company off the mountain and down a steep slope in search of the enemy.


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[Assistant] When the last man disappears over the rim, Kirby checks his watch, it's 1.40pm, less than, in less than 45 minutes, his mortar platoon is to be airlifted off Hereford to LZ Savoy, where it will continue providing fire support for Charlie Company.


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[Assistant] To ask to occupy a company size defensive perimeter with only 19 men. So now we're talking company size perimeter.


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[Assistant] That's, that's 150 people. Yea. And he's got 19 guys.


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[Assistant] Kirby figured the best way to do this was to form a U-shaped defense and place two men into every third foxhole. This, however, left the top of the horseshoe open. Knowing his men are spread too thin,


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[Assistant] Kirby, a 29 year old native of South Los Angeles, scans the perimeter from his foxhole at the bend of the Herschu beginning


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[Assistant] With the gun crew directly behind him, inside the pit is Sergeant-


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[Assistant] Charles Gaines and Spec 4 Austin Drummond, a former Golden Gloves champion with fast hands, perfect for dropping rounds into a mortar tube. Sergeant Isaac Johnson sits on the ground nearby with a plop board on his lap.


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[Assistant] The gun crew is ready to place supporting fire when and where the company commander needs it.


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[Assistant] Most of the water platoon have been together since Fort Benning, Georgia.


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[Assistant] But a few are replacements who have never been in battle, so Kirby has no idea how they will react under fire. One of his new men is spec for David Crocker.


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[Assistant] A 21 year old medic who sits a few feet from Kirby reading a paperback, his medical bag,


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[Assistant] Ready at his side. In the foxhole next to Kirby is long time radio operator spec for John Spranza.


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[Assistant] Who is the platoons linked to the outside world and is never more than an arm's length away from Kirby? Communications are unreliable because the high mountain's in deep valley. How's the combo? Ask Kirby so far so good. Answer Speranza.


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[Assistant] But who knows for how long. Kirby focuses on the western section of the perimeter, holding down the most forward position at the top of the open horseshoe are two men who have fought bravely in previous firefights.


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[Assistant] Our combat vets, Robert Radar-Roder.


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[Assistant] Kirby, that Kirby's been in combat, he's been wounded, and he's still out there doing his job. This guy has combat experience. And now we're to think that he's just gonna be lackadaisical in this scenario.


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[Assistant] In the last defensive position on the western side, Kirby assigned a competent and respected leader, Sergeant Lewis Buckley, with PFC Henry Benton, who joined the platoon only two weeks ago. Kirby knows little about Benton, and the two new privates covering the southern sector a few yards away from Kirby's position, Joel Tamayo.


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[Assistant] And James Francis Brooks Jr., both of whom joined the platoon just a few weeks earlier. So he's got those guys that he doesn't really know too well kind of close at hand. Kirby decides to walk the eastern side of the perimeter.


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[Assistant] Take the first call for reconnaissance fire in advance of the company's movement in the valley below. So why is Kirby walking the perimeter? Because he's doing his job as a leader.


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[Assistant] And he's also prepping to leave. Cause you, when you, when you, when the helicopters come in, is it that the good time to stack up stuff and get it off the DZ?


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[Assistant] The LZ? No. You wanna have it prepped. So the helicopters don't spend a bunch of time there. And you wanna get all the stuff off the LZ so the enemy can't use it.


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[Assistant] Sitting in the nearest position to Kirby, Kirby's on the eastern sector is spec for AVSpikes, who is complaining about something to PFC Wade taste. Spike, stop bitching and keep your eyes open. Warns Kirby as he approaches.


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[Assistant] Spikes, 26, a seven year veteran, whose disregard for authority is well known, looks at Kirby, but says nothing. Kirby orders 18 year old taste to help Buckley, who's already picking up scattering cans and containers. So he's...


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[Assistant] Kirby moves to the next position where Look Magazine correspondent Sam Casten is interviewing Spec 4 Daniel Post and PFC Roger, Robert Benjamin. Casten came out of the field a day before to write a story about death.


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[Assistant] He had chosen to stay on Hereford with Immortal Platoon rather than travel with the company Post, known as Platoon's practical joker, feeds cast in mischievous responses while Benjamin only responds in yes or no answers.


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[Assistant] Kirby queries the two troopers on what they will do if attacked. They tell him they plan on throwing hand grenades down. The rocky prep assist bol-


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[Assistant] Below their position and firing interlocking fires with their positions on their left and right.


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[Assistant] So, that's Kirby. Kirby's like, okay, what are you gonna do if we get hit? They say we're gonna throw grenades over there, and we're already got interlocking fields of fire with these other positions.


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[Assistant] Satisfied Kirby heads for the most forward position at the top of the eastern sector, manned by Paul Harrison and Charles Stuckey, both battle tested specialists. Harrison and Stuckey have established interlocking fields of fire across the open end of the Yushi perimeter with Williams and Brame on the western side.


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[Assistant] So, he set the positions, he went out, inspected the positions, made sure people understand their field of fire. Squad leader's actually doing his job.


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[Assistant] On the way back to his position, Kirby nods to Sergeant First Class Edward Shepard sitting on the rim of the foxhole not far apart from the mortar pit. Shepard 38 is the only soldier there who's not in the mortar platoon. He stayed behind to catch a helicopter where he is a-


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[Assistant] Warren radiospranza that the helicopters are on the way and that word spreads from hole to hole. What Warren does not know is that the helicopters are actually delayed and still sitting on the ground at LZ Savoy in the valley.


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[Assistant] Around two fifteen, five minutes before the anticipated arrival of the helicopter, Stuckey spots three well camouflaged North Vietnamese army soldiers watching him from the elephant grass. He opens fire with his M16 and Harrison joins in. The three enemy drop either dead or wounded. So,


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[Assistant] You're, if you don't catch well camouflaged NVA, if you're not paying attention, these guys are paying attention. Then in the next instant,


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[Assistant] A massive volume of automatic fire and small arms fires unleashed from the high ground to the north and a ravine to the east. Shepherds sitting on the rim of the foxhole is killed in the first valley. Volley within seconds, the rocket propelled grenades, mortar rounds explode near each occupied position. Men brode deep inside their foxhole under the terrifying shrapnel slicing through the air and bullets cracking overhead. The platoon is surrounded, outmanned and outgunned.


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[Assistant] And go is because he didn't even want to leave in the first place.


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[Assistant] In the open, stacking equipment, Taste falls to the ground with two bullets to the throat. Buckley, his shoulder covered in blood, dashes across the open perimeter screaming, get off the hill, get off the hill, and disappears into the elephant grass. Harrison yells for Stucky to go to the mortar pit while he stays behind to hold off the enemy.


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[Assistant] Stucky takes a few more shots at the enemy, turns and zigzags for the mortar pit when an RPG round explodes in front of him, throwing him to the ground. After the shrapnel and dirt stop falling, he raises his head and looks to see where Post and Benjamin had been trying to make an escape. Both are dead.


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[Assistant] He sprints towards a large rock right, just outside the perimeter. As he turns the corner of it, he encounters an enemy soldier about to throw a grenade into the LZ.


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[Assistant] Spotting Stucky, the NVA tosses the grenade directly at him instead. The grenade sails over Stucky's head, hits the rock behind him and explodes, wounding him.


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[Assistant] Stuck, he then moves around the rock face, finds a narrow crevice, and squeezes into it, hidden from the enemy. Paul Harrison, slapping magazine after magazine into his rifle, fires at every charging enemy soldier he can see. When he runs out of ammunition, he jumps up from his foxhole, and charges the NVA, using his M16 as a club.


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[Assistant] One round slams in front of Sprenza's foxhole, showering his back with shrapnel. Another explodes to his left, killing Doc Crocker instantly. The third round sends shrapnel into Kirby's arms, head, and chest. The last round hits the rear lip of the mortar pit, tearing off Drubin's right arm and mangling his left leg. He dies in a pool of blood.


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[Assistant] Johnson, the only gun crew member alive, takes shrapnel in the face but continues firing on the advancing enemy. As attackers fall, others jump over them, running toward Johnson, who keeps firing until he is out of ammunition.


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[Assistant] He makes a running dive at the rocky abatement on Hereford southern edge and rolls down the slope careening off rocks and over tree roots until finally coming to a stop. He spots a V shaped depression hidden in thick vegetation with a stream running through it. He pulls himself into the stream and gathers brush and vines to hide his body grip with fear and exhaustion.


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[Assistant] On the western perimeter, Williams and Braym frantically fire their M16s on full automatic at the waves of NVA. As do Roeder and Mack.


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[Assistant] Rotor fires his M79 until he's out of ammunition, then picks up Max M16 and continues firing until it too is empty.


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[Assistant] He throws two grenades at the charging enemy, forcing them to fall back, then jumps out of his fighting position and heads for Benton's foxhole. When he tumbles in, he finds Benton dead.


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[Assistant] He crawls out and with bullets trailing his every step races over to the foxhole of Brooks and Tamayo, but they are dead as well.


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[Assistant] Figuring everyone else is dead, Rotor does what he is trained to do, escape and evade. He tears down the side of the hill into the elephant grass, followed by several enemy. With bullets zipping over his head, he runs deeper into the elephant grass as fast as he can, until he's overcome by exhaustion and drops to the ground.


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[Assistant] When he is gasping, when his gasping for air subsides he realizes the enemy is no longer following him. He stays hidden, silently praying that he will be spared.


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[Assistant] Still in his hole, Spranza sees a figure running toward his position. He fires off a quick burst, somehow missing his target.


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[Assistant] Don't shoot for god's sake, it's me. The reporter looks over at Kirby and yells, we need to get the hell out of here. Kirby shouts back, where? We're surrounded.


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[Assistant] Get six on the horn, Kirby tells Spranza.


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[Assistant] Please hurry, we're being overrun. But Warren doesn't get the transmission as communication between Hereford and the company no longer exists. Speranza turns to the artillery frequency and repeats the message. The artillery RTO passes the call to Warren who now pushes his company even more, ordering his men to double time up the hill. A murderous pace in the mud and tangled vines.


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[Assistant] By this time, the battalion executive officer Major Cantrell is circling above Hereford and his observation helicopter and Colonel Beard is watching the battle from his command and control Huey. The swarm of enemy they see below is so intermingled with the mortar position, neither officer can distinguish who's who. Rather than kill the defenders by mistake, Beard holds off on artillery requested by Kirby.


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[Assistant] Meanwhile, Kirby sees four enemy crawling towards his position less than 15 feet away and tosses three hand grenades as fast as he can, stopping their advance. Kirby now realizes Kastin is right. Their only chance for survival is to get off the LZ.


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[Assistant] He cups his hands to bark the order when the badly wounded Taste suddenly drops into his foxhole. Kirby ties a dressing on Taste's bleeding throat and yells over the enemy fire. We gotta make a break for it. Call Artie on the hill.


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[Assistant] Spranza reaches the artillery net, shouting into the handset. We're getting out of here. The place is covered with enemy. Just about everybody is dead.


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[Assistant] With bullets kicking up dirt all around them, Kirby and Taste low crawl over to Spranza and Kastin.


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[Assistant] We'll go over the rim in the direction the company will be coming in, hollers Kirby. Let's go. As Spranza struggles with his radio while he climbs out of the foxhole, Kirby screams, forget the radio, blow it.


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[Assistant] The five wounded men now move toward the slope, descending into a deep ravine to the east. Kirby tasted spikes and cast and run, crawl and roll into the elephant grass, while Spranza act as a rear guard before rolling down the hill to join them.


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[Assistant] As they reach a small ravine, they hear the enemy coming down from the LZ in hot pursuit. They lie down, figuring the Americans are hiding. The NVA began beating the grass. The first North Vietnamese to spot the Americans is shot in the face by Spranza. Kirby kills another standing nearby. Spikes fires his M79 to the group, killing five. The other two crawl away wounded. Seconds later, another group of North Vietnamese spray the ground.


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[Assistant] Around the American, Spranza takes three bullets in his right leg, one smashing into his kneecap, severing the tendon. Another bullet rips through his left leg. I'm hit, Spranza screams as he falls into a heap on the jungle floor. Kirby sprays the advancing enemy with the last of his ammunition, causing them to retreat.


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[Assistant] When he bends down to check on Spranza, a bullet smashes into his right arm. He's now losing blood from many wounds. Kirby eyes an NVA peeking over the grass and pulls out a rusty French flare gun he'd found on an old battlefield and fires hitting in between the eyes. The soldier falls backwards, screaming in agony as his flesh burns away.


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[Assistant] Feeling somewhat safe with a N.V.A. about a hundred yards behind, they move a little faster, suddenly spotting a small group of enemy coming up a trail to their flank. Sprenza signals to get down. Kastin does not see Sprenza's warning and keeps going, running straight into a group of North Vietnamese coming from another direction. One of the N.V.A. shoots Kastin in the head, killing him.


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[Assistant] The enemy now opens fire to the grasses from two sides. Spikes takes several bullets in his chest. Kirby checks his pulse, but cannot find one.


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[Assistant] The North Vietnamese troops slowly wade through the grass toward Kirby and Spranza. Kirby's out of ammo. Spranza's rifle is jammed but he has two grenades left and he gives them to Kirby who tosses them into the advancing enemy.


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[Assistant] The deafening explosion stopped the enemy's advance. Kirby and Spranza take advantage of the situation and begin to move slowly back up the hill. But it's too much for Spranza. Go without me, he gasps. I can't move any further. I'm dying. I'm not leaving you alone, says Kirby.


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[Assistant] Go now, sprandza yells. Save yourself. I've made peace with my lord. Just go.


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[Assistant] Kirby believing Spranza will die for sure, reluctantly a seeds to the RTO's demand and crawls away back towards Hereford.


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[Assistant] Spranza, a low growing weaker from loss of blood, finds the will to take off a scabbard knife strapped to his leg.


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[Assistant] By a leather thong. He places the knife around, on the ground next to him.


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[Assistant] The raw hide as a tourniquet to stop the bleeding in his right leg. He then somehow manages to open his first aid kit, find a gauze bandage and begins wrapping around his head and eye. Before he can finish however, he hears rustling of men coming toward him through the grass. He takes his knife into his hand and rolls over face down in the dirt.


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[Assistant] And roughly strips off his signet ring. Another's take his wallet, cigarettes and dog tags. Unable to stay motionless, another second he's about to jump up with his knife when he hears a helicopter rapidly descending. It sprays the ground with bullets, some so close they spatter dirt in his face. Screaming frantically, the N.V.A. run for cover.


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[Assistant] But the large, shattery figure, bat licked by the sun, drifting through the trees, quickly grabbed Spranza's knife in hand, screaming, Hey, it's me, Carlos, Carlos Cruz.


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[Assistant] The last of his energy drained, Spranza lays down his head and slips into unconsciousness. Kirby is halfway up the slope when friendly artillery ceases falling, uncertain what it means. He keeps crawling. His many wounds are taking their toll, but he keeps going until he reaches the top of the hill where he sees Charlie Company troops everywhere.


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[Assistant] Unable to control his wounded body and frayed emotions, he slides to the ground. A medic gives him a shot of morphine and stops his bleeding.


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[Assistant] When the wounded Stuckey comes crawling into the LZ, another medic rushes over, lays him down and treats his wounds. Sprenza is carried up the hill in a stretcher made from ponchos and shortly he, Kirby and Stuckey are placed in a medevac helicopter and flown out.


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[Assistant] Passing the medevacs flying out, helicopters begin delivering reinforcements who pile out onto Hereford.


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[Assistant] Hearing the helicopters coming and going, Johnson, who got off the hill and evaded the enemy, slowly approaches the LZ, only to face the muzzle of an M16 held by PFC Morgan. He drops to the ground out of relief when he is recognized by Morgan.


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[Assistant] The last motor platoon survivor to get back to the LZ is a dazed roader.


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[Assistant] Company platoon leader asked Rogan to identify the bodies, all of which had been stripped of personal effects and shot in the head.


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[Assistant] He is able to name a few before the weight of the massacre takes its toll.


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[Assistant] As he sits down, the afternoon monsoon rains begin pouring down out of the dark sky.


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[Assistant] Rotor shivers as the rain pelts his sobbing body.


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[Assistant] Uhm, you know, the difference is immense. The leadership issues.


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[Assistant] The whole assessment of that. And it's not like I'm not saying leadership and strategy and tactics tells you the answer. But it gives you the, the options. And it's heavy options to weigh.


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[Assistant] And, and you could look at Warren and say, well, if it wasn't safe, I wouldn't do it. Okay, well then, he fires you on the spot. He puts some young lieutenant in charge of the platoon.


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[Assistant] And you get thrown in a helicopter and taken out. So what good did you do? Now, you can also say, hey roger that.


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[Assistant] By the way, give me a, give me a fireteam over here. Give me a gun, give me a machine gunner. This is what we're doing. Once the, once the boss leaves, you can do that. That's a good option. I like that option.


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[Assistant] And you don't know what kind of relationship we have. Because...


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[Assistant] And I have to be careful. In fact, that's one of the probably the original reasons for me being such a listener.


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[Assistant] Is I know that if I say, I think we should do this, a lot of people just go, yeah, Roger that. Like, if that's what you think, we're on board. I mean, that's kind of something I had to watch out for, and it turned me into more of a listener because I didn't want to subdue people's thoughts.


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[Assistant] I didn't want to tamper with their ideas and I didn't want to override how they thought something should go.


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[Assistant] So we have to be careful of that as a leader to make sure that we aren't just being so overbearing that people don't push back against us.


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[Assistant] The... patent quote, front line, the front line, the leader in the field is always right, right? You're coming from your helicopter, you're getting off and you're telling me what to do.


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[Assistant] That just sits so foul for me. And the other thing that's interesting about this is you would think that we could be sitting here saying as to


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[Assistant] It's very easy to say, we could, you and I could be sitting here having a conversation where, look, discipline is paramount.


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[Assistant] Obviously, we can sit here and say Jocko, Jocko's saying discipline is paramount. No one would question that for one millisecond. Discipline is paramount. You have to, you have to get people into a point where they will obey what you say.


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[Assistant] And that's just, just so wrong. It's just so wrong. It's so wrong to think that. It's so wrong to feel that way. And you know what? Like, I'm so thankful that


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[Assistant] I had the luxury of being in the military and being able to experience this and and then on top of that getting to see it while I was training people and then on top of it getting to see it with all these companies that we work with because occasionally to this day


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[Assistant] And it's like, actually, no. You don't want that. And I actually, I actually had a good...


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[Assistant] Uh, situation like this was working with a client and I had two people on the call. There's more than two people, but there's two people that kind of rose to the conversation. One of them was, you know, but they just need to do it. And, and I rebutted that guy.


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[Assistant] And said, well, if what you're gonna do is just, you know, bark, Tim, shut up and do it, whether you believe it or not.


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[Assistant] That's not gonna have a good outcome and here's why. I went through the whole thing and when I got done with that, the other guy said, that's what we need to do.


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[Assistant] We need to actually listen to what they have to say. We have to take their input. All those things. We need to make their plan. All those things that we talk about all the time. Which is...


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[Assistant] The battalion commander says, hey, you shut up and do what I told you to do. Yeah, Roger that. Okay, you just won the tactical battle. But what, look what happens.


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[Assistant] Look what happens, you won that little tackle battle and you lose these other p-people. And, and, and look.


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[Assistant] Could there have been no one waiting on that LZ? Absolutely. There could have been no one waiting. There could have been no enemy on that LZ and everything would have gone fine and that guy's, that guy's tyrannical behavior would have been reinforced as the right way to lead and it ain't the right way to lead. It is not the right way to lead.


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[Assistant] And you know what makes that happen? And I brought this up with a client the other day.


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[Assistant] In the military, because I say, look, you can be effective with that kind of brow-beating, tyrannical leadership. For, for.


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[Assistant] Whatever. For an hour, for a week. Right? I can just yell, Dave shut up and do what I told you to do. And actually in the military?


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[Assistant] My tour is starting to look coming to an end. You're not even gonna give me resistance anymore. You're like, cool, he's gone and whatever. So these guys can bounce from job to job to job being in charge of this group. By the time he leaves, he's hated.


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[Assistant] But he's accomplished, he's quote, accomplished the mission, right? He's got his good fit rep, he's done his job, he's accomplished the mission, he's hated.


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[Assistant] His, his chain of command above him thinks, oh yea, well he did a good job, he got the mission accomplished.


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[Assistant] First of all, they never got tested. Second of all, doesn't know the morale of the troops because that guy's able to hide it. So that's how these military leaders, sometimes they get through their whole career. Yeaah. And I mean whole career. I'm talking 34 year careers. Right. Where they never actually led anybody. All they did was bar quarters. And they retire as an admiral, they retire as a general, and, and they don't know how to lead.


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[Assistant] They don't know how to lead. No, uh, obviously there's some incredible generals and admirals, obviously. And captains and colonels, obviously.


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[Assistant] But just because you became an admiral or you became a colonel or you became a captain or you became a general.


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[Assistant] That doesn't mean you knew how to lead. And you know what? If you were a tyrannical leader, you


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[Assistant] Is Jaco pushing back because he doesn't, because he doesn't care about his people? Because he doesn't want this to be successful? Why would Jaco possibly be drawing a line in the sand right now?


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[Assistant] Digging a little bit deeper on this. There were some, there were some people that wrote into historynet.com and asked Michael Christie for some


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[Assistant] We always feared a human wave attack like experienced by the soldiers at Hereford. I would like to know if Lieutenant Colonel Rutland Beard was ever charged with negligence for ordering Charlie Company Commander Cop Captain Don Warren to leave his mortar platoon behind in a vulnerable position with no infantry support while the rest of Charlie moved out.


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[Assistant] I have to wonder how John Spranza, who is badly wounded and played dead before his rescue and the other survivors are doing today after their dreadful experience. Well, for one thing, we know that Staff Sergeant John Kirby, though not named, was written about in a very negative way in this other manual. But guess what? Michael Christie responded. And here's, here's his response. As one would expect,


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[Assistant] The horrors of the massacre at Elsie Hereford had a tremendous impact on the lives of those, of all those involved. Captain Don Warren became an alcoholic and eventually committed suicide.


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[Assistant] Sergeant Robert Kirby retired from the army and refuses to talk about Elsie Hereford, claiming he remembers almost nothing about it. Although he did receive a Silver Star for his part in the battle. God bless him.


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[Assistant] Bob Roeder has a severe case of PTSD, but still managed to succeed. He married his high school sweetheart, raised a family, and operated a multi-million dollar medical supply business. John Sparanza overcame his physical injuries. This is the, so, so,


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[Assistant] Bob Roeder was the last guy to be recovered, the guy that broke down trying to identify his friends. John Speranzo's got shot in the ear, exit wound in the nose.


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[Assistant] John Spranza overcame his physical injuries, but suffered from emotional damage. His drinking led to three divorces, yet the same determination that saved his life 46 years ago allowed him to work successfully in two long careers, first in the printing industry and then as a rural postman for 20 years.


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[Assistant] He and his wife of 26 years are retired and live in northern Georgia. George, Charles Stuckey died of cancer six years ago.


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[Assistant] No one has heard from Isaac Johnson since LZ Hereford was overrun. No official record exists on Rutland Beard receiving any reprimand. He retired from the army as a Colonel.


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[Assistant] The story of carnage on LZ Hereford is a riveting piece of work, but as noted, it varied glaringly in spots from the SLA Marshall narrative published 46 years ago. Nonetheless, both our authors accurately capture the overall horror of the event.


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[Assistant] About a week before the attack described by Christie on a company from another battalion had been overrun at Hereford.


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[Assistant] And my company from the one five cab first cab division was airlifted onto the LZ the following morning to assist.


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[Assistant] In his book, Battles in the Monsoon, Marshall claimed that all, that the KIAs had been evacuated the previous evening, but I distinctly recall seeing the poncho-covered bodies of the U.S. soldiers still ringing the landing zone.


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[Assistant] Den and me were everywhere. The Americans gave as good as they got.


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[Assistant] There's one more detail that I want to go into.


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[Assistant] The journalist. He was married when he was in Vietnam.


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[Assistant] And he and his wife, a woman named Fran Kasten, had moved to Hong Kong while he was working in Vietnam. So they were, uhm,


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[Assistant] You know, close flight, then he figured, well, I still want to see you, so we'll move to Hong Kong. And then when I go work in Vietnam, and then when I'm not working, I'll come back. And they'd been there for about a month before he was killed.


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[Assistant] And they had a 13 month old toddler at the time.


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[Assistant] So she had to put her life together as best she could. She, she had been to school. She'd studied English, I believe.


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[Assistant] And she went and started knocking on doors and eventually got a job at the New Yorker magazine.


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[Assistant] And then she moved over to the Scholastic magazine.


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[Assistant] And eventually became a teacher at the School of Visual Arts in Manhattan.


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[Assistant] Teaching writing and that is when at age 40 she started to write poetry.


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[Assistant] At The Undertakers, you are all made up.


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[Assistant] And your hair was parted wrong, so I smoothed it the way you would have liked.


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[Assistant] Eerie as strands of ticker tape. Still printing.


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[Assistant] Again, like this is a, an incredible manual. The squad leader makes a difference and, and,


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[Assistant] Your actions make a difference and have an impact on the world. You're gonna leave a mark.


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[Assistant] On the world and you leave an imprint on the people around you.


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[Assistant] I give you a hard time about just being able to press record. Cause that doesn't seem like a very hard job.


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[Assistant] Sometimes the podcast can be a little much. A little heavy. And, and so early on,


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[Assistant] We realize that maybe a little decompression would be good. I know I need it. Yeah. I know I need it sometimes. So, so.


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[Assistant] I'm sorry for setting you up with the freaking horrible job of going from that conversation that we just had into whatever it is you're talking about.


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[Assistant] That's, and that's part of the thing, that's part of the deal is, it could, that could just be the end of the podcast. I get it, right?


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[Assistant] But, I actually don't want to leave anyone.


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[Assistant] That way. To be honest with you. I don't want to leave. Look, the point has been made. We get it. Right? It's true. Yea. I don't want to leave. I don't want someone to press stop, walk out, and like, that's what's going through their head. Yea, they walk in to leave.


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[Assistant] Right, we need a little, we need to bring it back around, right? The world has darkness in it, right? We just saw that.


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[Assistant] By the way, the author, the, the, his wife, Fran Casten, she's alive. She's in like East Hampton or something. She's out there writing poems. Maybe we'll hear from her.


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[Assistant] I would say we're, we want to make a good mark on the world.


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[Assistant] How do we do that? What? What? How do you suggest us doing a better job?


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[Assistant] Of leaving a positive impression on people and on the world.


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[Assistant] Super Krill, Vitamin D3, Cold War, Warrior Kids, Molk, you got all kinds of good stuff.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You can get it from jocofuel.com. And by the way, if you subscribe to any of these things, the shipping is free. Cause we know that that was kind of an issue. People are like, I want this stuff, but shipping is expensive.


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[Assistant] And it's free shipping, get some, uh, jacobfuel.com. Also you can get the, you can get the, the, the drink at Wawa.


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[Assistant] Chainwide, by the way, chainwide, apparently there's some insurgency happening, some other


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[Assistant] Appreciate everyone getting after that. And, uh, you can also get all the supplement, the whole line at, uh, Vitamin Shop. And, like I said, free shipping.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] If you, if you subscribe. If you might also need jujitsu gear. A jujitsu gi. You might need a rash guard. You can get all that stuff from originusa.com by the way.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You can get that there. All this good stuff. And plus, if you, if you ever are off the mats of justice, and you need something to wear, because we know what we're wearing on the mats, right? We're wearing our origin gi.


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[Assistant] Or our origin rashcraft, but if you're off the mass of justice and you need


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[Assistant] Clothing, which you do, you can get jeans, you can get boots, you can get, dang we got socks coming. What? You can get under, you can get everything. We're getting there, we're getting there, we're getting everything. All this, all this made in America, made in America, which is, which is what we are doing to rebuild manufacturing in this country.


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[Assistant] Subscribe to this podcast. Also, we got the Jocko Unraveling. We got the Grounded Podcast. We got the Warrior Kid Podcast. We also have the Jocko Underground. JockoUnderground.com. Where we


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Give some amplifying information. Other things, different topics, different subjects behind the scenes. We're setting up for a Q&A, right?


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[Assistant] Dude, that's, you're proactive. You just made that happen. The squad leader makes a difference. I make a difference, yes sir. I'm trying over here doing my best. Are you the trooper squad leader?


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[Assistant] If you want to get all this and you want to support us, you can go to jaco underground.com. It costs $8.18 a month, which is a number with layers. And that just protects us from, number one, having to be a slave to sponsors.


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[Assistant] From people saying they didn't wanna, they don't wanna host us anymore.


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[Assistant] They can try it. We got it. We'll be standing by. Execute contingency plan. So thanks everyone that's supporting on that. We got a YouTube channel.


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[Assistant] We got a YouTube channel that echo Charles.


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[Assistant] He makes videos, and I am the assistant director of the good ones. Which is important to know. Also, Origin BJJ has, has a, they're putting some cool videos up as well. Check that one out. Check out that one.


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[Assistant] Dakota Meyer making cool stuff to hang on your wall. The coolest stuff to hang on your wall. If you're gonna hang something on your wall, if you're gonna hang something on your wall, don't you want to look at it and say, that's from Dakota Meyer?


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[Assistant] That's 100% what I want. If I'm hanging something on my wall, I want it to be from Dakota Meyer.


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[Assistant] FlipsideCanvas.com if you want that. We got a bunch of books. Final Spin. What is it? It's, it's a, it's a novel. Dave, assessment. You've read Final Spin.


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[Assistant] It is, they're going to have a hard time figuring out where to put this one on the bookshelves. Yes, they put it over there and they put it over there in the, yeah. Like where does it go?


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[Assistant] So, you would think what you just said like, oh, bias, right? You'd think, oh, I send it to my mom, that's a given, right?


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[Assistant] That said like, halfway done, I am loving this book. That was complete shock.


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[Assistant] In fact, I told Leif about it because Leif was, Leif was with me in New York City when Extreme Ownership made number, number one New York Times bestseller. Which is, which is like sort of the thing, the cool thing for a book, right?


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[Assistant] And I, I called my parents on speakerphone, and, and, Leif's like standing there listening, I'm like, hey, I just want to let you guys know, you know, we made New York Times bestselling list, you know, with the book that I wrote with Leif. And my mom's like, oh, well we'll see how long it's on there for. I was like, cool. Yea, I guess we will. So, a positive review.


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[Assistant] It's gonna be, it's gonna be very interesting. So we got that, if you want to pre-order that thing. It's also, it's also, hey, why pre-order? Well,


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[Assistant] When you, you want that first dish. And here's the other thing.


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[Assistant] Do you think they're nervous about this? They are nervous.


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[Assistant] Before they freak out. So, final spin, leadership strategy and tactics, field manual, the code, the evaluation, the protocols, discipline equals freedom, field manual, the way of the warrior kid for field manual, way of the warrior kid one, two, and three, Mike and the Dragons, about face.


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[Assistant] Like David Hackworth, extreme ownership, and the dichotomy of leadership. Echelon Front, it's a leadership consultant, so you can hear Dave and I talking about it today. This is what we do, we solve problems through leadership. Go to echelonfront.com for details. EF Online, it's,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Leadership training for everyone. EFOnline.com. It's, it's where you can get your whole team training tomorrow.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It's tomorrow. You don't have to do something crazy, you don't have to contact that. You can go to Echelon, go to efonline.com, you can start training tomorrow. The Mustard 2021.


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[Assistant] We got these things lined up, go to extremeownership.com, it's our live event.


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[Assistant] All these have sold out. These are going to sell out to EF Overwatch. If you need leaders inside your company, go to EFOverwatch.com and we have leaders that understand the principles we talk about. They can go in your company and help you win. And if you want to help service members,


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[Assistant] Service members active, retired. You want to help their families? You want to help Gold Star families? Check out Mark Lee's mom. Mama Lee. She's got a charity organization.


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[Assistant] If you wanna donate or you wanna get involved, go to americasmightywarriors.org. And if you want more of my protracted parables,


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[Assistant] Or you need some more of Echo's perplexing postulations. Or you just crave some more of Dave's super serious soccas.


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[Assistant] Which Echo ONLY knows as The Graham. And on Facebook, Dave is at David R. Burke, Echo is at Echo Charles, and I am at Jocko Willink. And thanks to all the people out there in uniform. All of you.


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[Assistant] All the military, the police, law enforcement, firefighters, paramedics, EMTs, dispatchers, correctional officers, border patrol, secret service, first responders, and all of your families waiting at home. Thanks to all of you for making a difference every single day with what you do and everyone else out there. Keep learning.


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[Assistant] And never forget that your decisions and your actions, they make a difference, not just in your life, but in the lives of other, of other people.


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[Assistant] Don't just go with the flow. Be intentional about what you're doing. Set things in order. Leave a positive mark in the world.


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[Assistant] We've done volumes one, two, and three on this podcast.


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[Assistant] I'm skipping ahead a little bit to volume seven. There's a section here that I kinda got, kinda got into. These, these combat lessons were written during World War II.


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[Assistant] With the explicit intention of disseminating lessons learned rapidly back to the troops to keep more guys alive and kill more enemy. And you might think, and I started thinking like, why am I reviewing this?


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[Assistant] Why am I doing that? I'll tell you why. Cause I've never heard these lessons before.


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[Assistant] And they're not getting passed on. So I want to make sure I pass on these lessons. And you know what? Obviously, they're not just for combat. Not just for combat.


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[Assistant] Combat lessons. The volumes are getting better, so the first one was kinda like a little bit, I'm not gonna say it was haphazardly put together, but now you got the full


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[Assistant] What they are doing and how they do it. The, uh, the intro to this thing, to this book comes from


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[Assistant] I'll just read it. Our armies in Europe have won their victory. So this is late in the war.


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[Assistant] Victory in Europe already. So now we're just fighting in the Pacific theater. Veterans of the campaigns of North Africa and Europe are now joining forces with the veterans of the Pacific for the final assault against Japan. Can you imagine having that on the horizon? You're, you're, you're thinking, okay,


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[Assistant] On the Japanese Empire, we're gonna kill all of them because they fight to the death. That's what's about to happen.


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[Assistant] They don't, these, they don't know anything about the atomic bomb yet. That's not even an option. They've seen the Japanese fight to the death on island after island and now they're gonna go and assault the Japanese.


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[Assistant] We must now bring to bear against the Japanese all the experience we have gained in every theater. The suggestions made in combat lessons are drawn from such experience.


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[Assistant] Publication is not delayed to ensure that they always represent the thoroughly digested views of the war department.


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[Assistant] The great combat lesson learned from every operation is the importance of leadership.


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[Assistant] Our equipment, our supply and above all our men are splendid. Aggressive and determined leadership is the priceless factor.


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[Assistant] Churchill called General Marshall the organizer of victory.


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[Assistant] The organizer of victory of World War II. Let's think about that. That's a pretty good compliment coming from Churchill. Uh, this is a guy that was a platoon and a company commander in, in the Philippine War.


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[Assistant] Ended up being a secretary of state. Remember learning about the Marshall Plan?


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[Assistant] No, well, when you were in high school, at some point you learned about the Marshall Plan, you just don't remember it. It was like the World War II, it was the recovery.


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[Assistant] The rebuilding after World War II overseas in Europe. That, the Marshall Plan named after this guy.


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[Assistant] He got a Nobel Peace Prize for that, by the way. So, a very capable man. So, kicking it into the book here. Leadership.


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[Assistant] First section, leadership. Too much stress cannot be placed upon the necessity for developing intelligent, aggressive troop leaders in all echelons.


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[Assistant] I wanna, I wanna, I wanna say that again. Too much stress cannot be placed. There's no way you can, you can stress the necessity for developing intelligent, aggressive troop leaders.


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[Assistant] So, if you're running a business, I said there's some similarities, if you're running a business and you're not investing in your leadership, you're wrong.


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[Assistant] Without any training and preparation or without any mentorship while they're out there is the wrong move.


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[Assistant] By the way, that's why Echelon Front actually exists. That's why we exist. To help that process take place.


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[Assistant] If you have the willingness to pay attention and then start taking responsibility and start taking ownership of things, you will go places. Now look, you can't, you gotta be, you don't wanna go overboard with it.


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[Assistant] But if you see your boss has got some things that maybe you could take over for him, take him over!


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[Assistant] It failed, it failed. Oh. Echo, I see that we failed to get this project done.


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[Assistant] Did you get the support that you need? Is there anything that I should have done a better job of to make sure you had what you needed to get this thing done? Cause this is a big let down for the client. And this isn't the kind of reputation we're looking to have. Where did I let you down?


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[Assistant] You can see where this is, what's interesting about these questions that you're trying to formulate.


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[Assistant] So your question is, when I come at you and say, you failed this project, you go, well it was a big project. So you get defensive at first, right? Yes. Cause you take it the wrong way. And you don't remember to take ownership for another two minutes.


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[Assistant] Okay, so at the end of two minutes, you know what you do? You go, you know what? You know what, boss?


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[Assistant] I'm getting defensive because my ego is getting in the way. And this is actually my fault. And all these excuses that I'm making right now make no sense whatsoever. Here's the mistakes I made. Here's the things I'm gonna do to fix it. I will not let this happen again. Yeah. Problem solved.


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[Assistant] I mean, otherwise you're just making excuses and blaming other people. And I don't trust you, by the way. I'm like, oh, Echo screwed this up, but he doesn't even realize that he screws up. He thinks it's everyone else's fault. He doesn't take ownership. Cool, I'm never giving him another project again. Whereas he'd come back to me and say, you know what, boss, this is completely my fault, and I let my ego get in the way, and I got mad. My temper and my ego, I will not let that happen again. Boom. Problem solved.


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[Assistant] Comments, Major General John P. Lucas, Commander of Six Corps. Prior to battle, we must develop the feeling of responsibility in junior officers and non-commissioned officers. Develop the feeling of responsibility. We want to give them ownership.


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[Assistant] I suggest doing this during field exercises by suddenly and unexpectedly declaring the commander a casualty and placing the second in command in charge, something we did all the time in SEAL training. Oh, got a good platoon commander, he's doing a great job, cool. You're down. Oh, platoon chief's doing a super job, cool. You're down.


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[Assistant] Nothing more important, he says. Nothing more important than having leaders that will take their share of the commander's responsibility. One of the most difficult tasks for the junior leader is getting the men to move forward under fire.


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[Assistant] Issuing the orders is easy, but seeing that the orders are carried out may call for every ounce of energy and initiative the officer or NCO possesses. Issuing the orders is easy, that's the easy part.


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[Assistant] I think Patton said 10% of the job is issuing orders. 90% is getting them done.


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[Assistant] Responsible Leadership in Actions, the next section. Captain Souter.


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[Assistant] Spotted the enemy machine gun and ordered his men to covered positions, but himself took an exposed position from which he could fire upon the machine gun. He opened fire suddenly and killed six of the enemy crew, making it possible for the wounded men to be evacuated in safety and for the wiremen to continue their work.


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[Assistant] He then gave first aid to the wounded officers and saw that they were evacuated to a safer location.


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[Assistant] Initiative, taking charge. I love this part where he got wounded. There's a company coming forward and they're wounded officers. So you disperse your company and you prepare to receive those guys and you'll be able to put them to work immediately.


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[Assistant] Another fine example of responsible and inspiring leadership is given in the following account.


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[Assistant] This account was written by three of the enlisted men who served under him during that action. Our company led the attack on a hill and took it. The enemy counterattacked, laying down heavy artillery, mortar and machine gun fire that knocked out a large number of our men and every officer except Lieutenant Everett.


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[Assistant] He had become so short of men that even the runners had to stay on the line fighting hard to help hold the ground we had won.


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[Assistant] The lieutenant ordered us to open fire with everything we had while he took an exposed position on the side of the hill and called fire orders to our mortar. Our mortar finally stopped the advancing enemy. He then located an enemy mortar that had been giving us trouble all day and adjusted our mortar on it. Knocking it out with a direct hit on the third round. He personally eliminated two enemy snipers.


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[Assistant] I once listened to a wounded officer back from fighting in Africa who said, forget all the formalities in the field, forget the officer and NCO distinctions in the field, keep all the eight balls, they will fight like hell. And I tried to, I looked up this term, eight balls.


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[Assistant] And, I, I assume it means like a, uhm, like a rebel type guy. The reason I assume that is because the next sentence says, so that, that was the guy quoting someone from Africa and he says,


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[Assistant] I do not believe he had seen very much action or he would not have made such a statement. I had a few, quote, eight balls who did fight like hell, but I have also had a lot of men who never caused me trouble, who were quiet, confident, well disciplined, and these men fought much better.


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[Assistant] So, you know, you get that, uh, in case of war, break glass. Yeaah. Thing where, look, this guy's a little rough around the edges.


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[Assistant] They are, they do have a, they can be awesome for sure. Cause you gotta have a little bit of that. I mean, let's face it, if you're joining the military.


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[Assistant] If you're joining the military to go into combat arms or you're joining the military to go into special operations, you're going in that, you want to do something that's...


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[Assistant] You basically want to do things that are not legal in the world, right?


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[Assistant] Blow things up and kill people? That sounds like a good one. Right? That's not normal.


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[Assistant] Uhm, he was having a conversation with a guy that was a SEAL and he's like, you know, there's something that made me nervous. Because when this guy was a young SEAL, he said, you know, I, I was asking him, hey, do you know you?


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[Assistant] You, you think you're ready to kill people and you know, you're, you're gonna deploy and this was kind of as Iraq was going on and this was like a younger SEAL that was gonna be heading to Iraq and the young SEAL was like, oh yeah.


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[Assistant] Well, I can't speak for all of them. You talk to most, a vast majority of SEALs.


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[Assistant] And you say, hey, if the enemy presents themselves an opportunity, the enemy, if there's an opportunity for you to kill the enemy, will you be


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[Assistant] Let's face it. He's down for the cost. Yeaah. Now, that's, that's the thing. Is.


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[Assistant] The group, the very good soldier that you want has that capability but has the discipline to keep it under control. The whole, uh, the little clip you made of Jordan Peterson and I talking about the day, the


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[Assistant] The good man is a dangerous man who has their...


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[Assistant] Next section, discipline is based upon confidence. Only a few hours later, after he had lost both legs in combat, Lieutenant Tikonur,


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[Assistant] Who had acted as a platoon leader in 5th division, 12th army group made this comment to a military observer. Our officers have to be real leaders.


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[Assistant] Discipline in combat depends largely upon the men's knowing that the officer in charge of them knows his business and is not reluctant to take necessary risks.


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[Assistant] A battalion commander of the 6th Armored Division in France makes a similar comment. Unless the officer or NCO knows his job completely, the men have no faith in him.


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[Assistant] So when they're talking about discipline there, they're like, are you, is the team going to do what they need to do when they get, when they get the orders to do it?


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[Assistant] And if they have faith in the leader, they'll do it. And if they don't, guess what?


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[Assistant] Which is interesting because you think, well, you know, it's the military. It's the military and if they get ordered to do something, no! That's what they're talking about here!


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[Assistant] That's what they're talking about. It doesn't work like that. It doesn't work like that anywhere. Just because I bark an order at you and I have rank over you doesn't mean you're gonna do it, especially if it's gonna get you killed.


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[Assistant] There's a comment here, and in these books they just, they, the...


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[Assistant] And it says comment, a leader who has not gained the respect and confidence of his men during training has two strikes against him when he enters combat.


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[Assistant] The element of doubt in the minds of his men may be the difference between success and failure of a mission.


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[Assistant] Gaining respect and confidence are your men. How do you do that? Do you do that by barking at them? No. Do you do that by yelling at them? No. You do that by listening. You do that by treating them with respect.


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[Assistant] Here is a definition of discipline says Colonel E. L. Munson, Signal Corps. True discipline is voluntary. It is based on knowledge, region,


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[Assistant] Because everyone thinks when the military talks about discipline, they're talking about...


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[Assistant] Yeah, the context that they're using is military discipline is like, hey, do the.


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[Assistant] In the context of that, we, there's multiple ways to achieve that. One of them is by beating people.


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[Assistant] And they're afraid and they're doing it out of fear. The other way is they're doing it because they understand, because they're part of it. The result is, the result is similar.


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[Assistant] But what this guy is saying is that the one that


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[Assistant] Will bring combrat results like no other kind is the kind where it's a positive discipline. It's a self-imposed discipline. We're doing this because we want to.


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[Assistant] This little section here, it's uh, replacement instruction. The wrong kind. So in...


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[Assistant] In, in World War II, you had guys getting wounded, guys getting killed, and there was replacements coming in.


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[Assistant] And so this happens inside all organizations. As organizations grow, you gotta bring in new people. And as new people come in,


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[Assistant] What happens to him? Replacement orientation, right? This is like new hires. How do you treat your new hires? Here's some things that they did. It's called the wrong kind. A lieutenant comments on his ominous introduction to front line existence. On my way to the front as an officer replacement, I met several individuals who had come back from the front line.


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[Assistant] Later experience has shown me that enlisted men who come in as replacements are subjected to similar morale breaking tales. I've tried to get my old men to give the new replacement a break by being careful not to exaggerate their battle experiences or in any way distort the picture of frontline existence.


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[Assistant] Give the new men a common sense introduction to the combat zone and there will be fewer men going on sick call before an attack.


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[Assistant] Non-coms and privates of company K, 11th Infantry.


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[Assistant] Of course the soundest remedy is to have the replacements occupy a defensive position for a time, but even then the kind of treatment they are given upon arrival at the front makes a big difference in the amount of good they will do to their new outfit. So, how are we treating people that show up at your company?


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[Assistant] And you can have such a huge influence if you do a good job bringing someone on board in a squared away manner. Don't screw it up. Comment!


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[Assistant] Even when the expected is bad is better than not knowing and consequently imagining the worst. That's what's gonna happen. We're gonna freak out.


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[Assistant] And, and part of this is, I think, unintentional when people tell stories, right? If you're to tell me, let's say you were in a Jiu-Jitsu tournament, and you wanted to tell me about something that happened.


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[Assistant] That happened to you. Maybe you got caught in a guillotine and... Look, you were caught in a guillotine and it was bad, right? And you got out of it.


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[Assistant] But it was like crazy. When you, when you wanna tell me that, you wanna make me feel how you felt. And one of the ways you can kinda get closer is by


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[Assistant] Making a little exaggeration. Bro, I started seeing, I started, the walls started coming in bro. And it might not necessarily, I understand what you're doing, I understand why you're doing it, but you weren't really gonna get choked out. You were just in a good guillotine, but it wasn't good enough because obviously you got out.


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[Assistant] So people can exaggerate for the purpose of


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[Assistant] You know, this mortar, like I've been mortared before. Mortar hits, mortar hits, I don't know, I don't know what the closest mortar to me ever was, but maybe let's call it 20 yards or something like that.


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[Assistant] If I was talking to someone else, be like, oh bruh.


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[Assistant] Then it goes into the right kind of orientation. Poor orientation of replacements may seriously affect the fighting ability and survival chances of men themselves and may also endanger the unit with whom they first serve. For these reasons, leaders of platoons, squads, and companies should find out exactly what orientation and training have been given.


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[Assistant] If a divisional training plan similar to that described below is in operation, the problem of inducting new members, new men into smaller units is much simplified and lower unit orientation can be modified accordingly. And then there's an effective


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[Assistant] Uh, an effective training system described. Our division has received thousands of replacements since its first combat experience in Normandy. More than 90% of these replacements have been infantry.


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[Assistant] gendered by loose talk before and upon their arrival. This is exact. You guys are scared shitless.


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[Assistant] Some time ago we started a course of instruction for our replacements. It lasts two and a half days and is conducted by battle experienced personnel.


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[Assistant] Particular emphasis is placed upon how to live in a foxhole, development of an aggressive attitude, the use of fragmentation grenade, anti-take grenade, and bazooka. Throughout the course, these men are trained in groups of 12. They are later assigned to organizations by these same groups. You know what else you gotta tell people about?


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[Assistant] Is, it, it closes out here by saying we, we found that this course of instruction gives replacements much greater self confidence. It debunks the notions that they have picked up in the rear. The course has definitely improved not only the morale, but also the fighting ability of our replacements who expect


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[Assistant] To continue the plan for all replacements to come into the division. You know what else? You gotta tell people like, oh, you're gonna be nervous.


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[Assistant] It's okay, you're gonna be nervous. It's no big deal. Everyone's nervous, no big deal. It's fine.


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[Assistant] Because I've seen this with fighters, they get nervous and they don't know what nervous feel like. Even really experienced athletes that might have wrestled or they might have, you know, boxed or they might have done smokers or they might even have a decent MMA record but now they're going in the UFC.


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[Assistant] And they get nervous for the first time. And they don't know that feeling. And all of a sudden they think it's bad.


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[Assistant] And you gotta say, hey listen, oh, you're feeling a little like queasy right now, feeling some butterflies? That's good. That's your body putting your blood into your muscles instead of to your stomach. It's all good.


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[Assistant] Says a successful third army rifle company commander. The following failings are common among replacements. They must be strictly and promptly eliminated if excessive casualties are to be avoided and combat efficiency obtained. Lack of ordinary discipline. Saying yeaah instead of saying yes sir.


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[Assistant] Jumping at the sound of every outgoing or incoming artillery shell.


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[Assistant] You do get used to it, but still like a startling noise.


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[Assistant] Did Jason Gardner tell that story on the podcast where the guy, they were doing a debrief?


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[Assistant] Uh, so there you go, jumping at the sound of every outgoing or incoming artillery shell.


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[Assistant] Here's another good one. Stoner was, Stoner's tasking was going through CQC training and this guy threw a crash into a room and it like,


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[Assistant] He threw a crash into the room and then went in the room and then like backed out cause he was scared of the crash cause something weird like that where the guy was basically scared of the crash.


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[Assistant] And so Stoner's like, they get done with the run and Stoner's like, hey come with me. And Stoner got like seven crashes in his pocket and he went into like a small closet.


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[Assistant] Yeah, it doesn't have anything. It's like a big firecracker basically. I mean, and look, you don't want to put a firecracker next to your hand or next to your eye, but they're not going to hurt you. I mean, you crash each other all the time. So I always thought that was a good lesson learned from stoner to that dude.


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[Assistant] Unwillingness to use the rifle. Many have been told never to fire without direct orders for fear of revealing positions.


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[Assistant] A tendency to bunch together when in danger. I wrote about that in leadership strategy and tactics. Not just from a battlefield, but also from a mental.


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[Assistant] Status, we all just want to like crowd each other. We get, we get, we feel comfort being next to each other. Don't. Freezing under fire.


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[Assistant] Slavin, slovenliness in care of equipment, lack of skill with the rifle or other infantry weapons, fear of the night, ignorance of squad formations, ignorance of field sanitation, and of personal hygiene in combat. Comment.


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[Assistant] Replacements who exhibit these deficiencies usually, have usually not had the advantage of such training system as described above.


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[Assistant] So think about how you're indoctrinating your people.


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[Assistant] You can probably do a better job of it. Next section is about river crossings. It goes by this whole


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[Assistant] This is, these are tactical things trying to help people win this war.


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[Assistant] These are tactical things about literally how to cross rivers. Very cool to read. I'm not going to cover it right now. It covers assault boat handling and, and water safety and foot bridges and cable bridges and engineer bridges. It just goes on all these detailed sections.


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[Assistant] And it's got a song, it's got a song with musical notes that you can sing. I'm gonna read you the, the lyrics, the first part of it. Oh, they've got no time for glory in the infantry.


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[Assistant] Oh, they've got no use for praises, loudly sung. But in every soldier's heart, in all the infantry, shines the name, shines the name of Roger Young.


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[Assistant] This story is about a Medal of Honor recipient and it tells a bit of the story here that that song is about this Medal of Honor recipient.


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[Assistant] Roger Young, on July 31st, 1943, the infantry company of which Private Young was a member was ordered to make a limited withdrawal from the battle line in order to adjust the battalion's position for the night. At this time, Private Young's platoon was engaged with the enemy in dense jungle where observation was limited.


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[Assistant] The platoon was suddenly pinned down by intense fire from a Japanese machine gun concealed on higher ground only 75 yards away. The initial burst wounded Private Young.


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[Assistant] As the platoon started to obey the order to withdraw, Private Young started creeping toward the emplacement.


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[Assistant] Despite a second wound, he continued his heroic advance, attracting enemy fire and answering with rifle fire.


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[Assistant] When close to his objective, he began throwing hand grenades and while doing so, he was hit again and killed. Private Young's bold action in closing with this Japanese pill box and thus diverting its fire permitted his platoon to disengage itself without loss and was responsible for several enemy casualties.


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[Assistant] Like I said, Roger Young was, he received the Medal of Honor for this action and I looked up.


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[Assistant] I looked up Roger Young and it was, it's an interesting story. He was from a small town up in Ohio, a place called Tiff in Ohio. And sometime during high school, he was a really good athlete. He was small, but he was a really good athlete.


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[Assistant] And sometime in high school, I think he was playing either basketball or football, he got in some...


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[Assistant] Like he could see, but not really well. He could hear, but not really well. And he was worried about being able to get into the regular army. So he joined the national guard.


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[Assistant] And he was like a really good soldier despite the fact that he couldn't see very well and he couldn't hear very well.


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[Assistant] And before this, this assault in New Jersey, New Georgia and this island in New Georgia, which is in the Solomon Islands.


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[Assistant] Before this assault, he had been advanced in rank and he went to his leadership and requested a demotion.


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[Assistant] Because he felt like he was putting his guys at risk because he couldn't see well enough and he couldn't hear well enough. And at first they thought, he's just trying to get out of the, you know, he's just trying to not do this, do this assault.


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[Assistant] I'm doing the assault, but I shouldn't be in charge of anyone because I can barely see and I can barely hear.


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[Assistant] Commanders and staffs as well as troops should be made to realize the amount of detail essential to proper preparation of a patrol for each mission. Emphasize the fact that the patrol leader must be given the means to and time to accomplish his mission.


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[Assistant] How often do we actually think about what we're tasking people with? You gotta realize what you're tasking people with, what time it's gonna take, how much time they need to prepare for it.


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[Assistant] Contact with the main force. Leaders of flank insecurity or security patrols should be impressed with the importance of maintaining contact with the main force at all times.


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[Assistant] Loss of contact has often proved disastrous, so you have to maintain communications.


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[Assistant] The opposite extreme, we got a little dichotomy going here. The opposite extreme however,


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[Assistant] Can also have serious results. One patrol leader overzealous about maintaining contact caused the attack to involve the main body and develop into a major action for which the latter was not prepared. So this guy kept everyone so close that by the time they did the assault, the main body got caught up in the assault as well. So there's a dichotomy you gotta balance.


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[Assistant] All movement must be regulated to take full advantage.


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[Assistant] This is what we gotta remember. When we say strictest discipline has to be maintained and controlled,


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[Assistant] If you and I are on a patrol, and you're in the back of the patrol, and I'm the, you're the rear security, and I'm the PL, I'm the patrol leader, and I'm number two, so there's 14, 18, 22 guys between us, how do I control what you're gonna do?


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[Assistant] And if you see something that makes you nervous, you can start shooting. You know, you might start making a call. You might be doing dumb things. Why is that? Is it because you're dumb? No, it's because I'm a bad leader. Because I didn't explain to you what the parameters were of what we were doing. I didn't explain to you why we were doing what we were doing. I didn't explain to you the dangers of shooting your rifle if you weren't sure of what was happening.


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[Assistant] So when they say control, don't think of it like, oh, I've got to sit there and tell everyone exactly what to do. You're going to really lose then. What you have to do is you have to utilize powerful and, and, and well executed decentralized command. That's what control is.


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[Assistant] The patrol group is attached to the unit headquarters from which it receives its mission. So he's talking, look, you can make a little element that's made of your best guys.


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[Assistant] Fatigue and strain endured by battle patrols make it impracticable to assign them more than one major mission every two or three days. Upon completion of a mission, the men should be moved to a rear location, fed, rested and prepared for the next.


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[Assistant] That's a duty or a mission or a task that maybe it's such of such importance that you put together a little hit team.


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[Assistant] And they get good at it, and they do it all the time, and you give them the support, and you give them the training. That's a very sensible thing to think about. Now, it doesn't mean you have to exclude everybody else, because I can have a hit team of four people that do, uh, presentations to clients.


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[Assistant] That doesn't mean, and I send two other guys, you know, occasionally I throw this guy, throw this guy, so other people learn. And maybe they spend some time in the hit team.


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[Assistant] To make someone a professional at that particular part of the duty.


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[Assistant] So this guy had good instincts to get that hand on the ball. Speed instincts. You know what's weird about this is he must have been really good to actually be identified as that guy. Yup.


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[Assistant] There's something to be said about this concept and specializing and focusing on something.


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[Assistant] Uhm, I was watching a thing about Wayne Gretzky, and when he was like, he would sit there and watch hockey games as a kid, and while he was watching the hockey game, he would trace the puck, like with a pen, on the, on the, on like a piece of paper. Like he'd draw a hockey rink, and then he would sit there and trace where the puck went, where it'd go the whole time, and then when the game was over,


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[Assistant] Three periods later, he would look at the, where his marks were on this piece of paper and start to think, that's where the puck is.


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[Assistant] This is where the puck is most of the time, this is where I need to be. And same with Dennis Rodman, he would know where different shooters on his team would kind of spin they put on the ball, and he'd be able to assess where that ball was gonna go, where's the highest chance of that happening, that's what he focused on.


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[Assistant] So if you can do that with a team, and you can get a team focused on a particular item, they're gonna excel at it. It's a good concept.


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[Assistant] And the comment here says, the presence of a professional patrol group in a unit should not be considered a complete solution to the patrolling problem, nor should it operate to curtail the training of individual riflemen in scouting and patrolling, right? This doesn't mean you got Rodman, so now no one else needs to work on their rebounding.


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[Assistant] Now, this section that I'm about to read, this is kind of, this is one of the ones where, when I read these for the first time, I was like, this one's kind of, it's a good debrief. Because it's a failure. And they actually debrief a mission here. It, this section is called, How Not To Patrol. And it's got notes in it.


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[Assistant] A sixth army report includes this account of an unsuccessful patrol action in New Guinea. Though some members of the patrol exhibited splendid courage and initiative, the mission was not accomplished and casualties were high. The negative results of this patrol action were due in large part to several violations of basic patrol principles as pointed out below.


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[Assistant] A map of the area is shown on the opposite page.


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[Assistant] So, the terrain that they're dealing with, there's a section of terrain, the coastal flat, northwest river, there's a river, and the way the river is broken out


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[Assistant] A track paralleling the beach is about eight feet wide and clear of underbrush. Along the beach is a four to eight foot embankment suitable for cover against small arms fire from inland.


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[Assistant] The width of the river varies from 15 feet in some places to 35.


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[Assistant] And then there's a river mouth. And this patrol goes across the river to enemy territory.


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[Assistant] And they've got these various locations. A is the outpost and across the river you got this coconut plantation. You got a perimeter that gets set up and you got a little village up there and they've got all these routes that go in and out route K they take in route L one element takes out route and another element takes out. So there's a lot going on in this, in this patrol.


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[Assistant] And I don't want to get too wrapped around trying to explain like exactly what happened without the visuals.


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[Assistant] The patrol consisted of a rifle platoon reinforced by two sixty millimeter mortar squads, one intelligence man, a radio operator, and an aid man. Second Lieutenant Y, the platoon leader, was in command. First Lieutenant X, from Y's company, was attached to the patrol as observer and coordinator.


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[Assistant] Comment, the higher commander keeps the accomplishment of the mission in mind when he selects the patrol leader. The more important the mission, the more careful his selection must be. A good leader should have judgment, initiative, courage, endurance and be a highly skilled leader.


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[Assistant] You've got this second lieutenant that's going out there in command, but you put a first lieutenant with him.


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[Assistant] It doesn't make any sense. And that's what they're, that's what they're common is. You're kind of, you're kind of throwing two people. If you don't trust one guy to run the mission, don't, don't do it.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It's just a rifle platoon. Why are you sending two officers out there? Do you not have confidence in one of them? And if that's the case, why are you sending them out there? Important thing to think about.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And what does it do to the minds of the troops? Hey, we, oh, there's the boss, cool. Oh wait, now we got another boss. Wait a second, why are we getting two bosses?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The mission of the patrol is to cross the river in the vicinity of the battalion outpost, reconnoiter the coastal area.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, south of this village and destroy any enemy found, right? So there you go.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But I'm going to read that again. The mission of the patrol is to cross the river in the vicinity of the battalion outpost, do reconnaissance of the coastal area, and destroy any enemy found.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And by the way, they're- they're quoting field manuals for this. That's FM.