[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I wanted to see the flag. He said, well, he's up front right there. And just like a miracle, that ship slid around on anchor because the seas were really rough that day and it was raining and everything. But all of a sudden there was, uh,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Shafts of light coming through the...


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[Assistant] Uh, clouds. And you could see that flag up there. And I cried.


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[Assistant] And then they took me down there and I still had my boots.


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[Assistant] Uh, he, uh, said take him on in there right quick, right there. And so went in there and they put me up on a table.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I still had my boots, and, uh, Corman tried to take my boots, and I wouldn't give. Oh, you don't take my boots. You're not, don't take my boots. And Dr. Anderson said, let him keep his boots. Well, the next thing I know, I'm in a, in a room about this big.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And it's in the room where the ships crew.


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[Assistant] That's where they had their bunks in there. So I'm on a bunk that's about four or five feet high here and then another bunk below.


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[Assistant] But up there above, I could reach, there was pipes going through there, uh,


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[Assistant] Through the book held up here. So I reach up there, now I'm under the influence of something that should never have been given to me. It wound up that it was, I was allergic to it.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So I know what I'm doing, but I can't keep from doing it. So I grabbed that pipe and pulled myself off the bunk.


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[Assistant] I was going hand over hand to my boots. I was going for my boots. I was desperate, you know.


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[Assistant] I look back when I thought I was crazy, should have been crazy or something. Well anyway, I get to a door.


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[Assistant] The bulkhead up there. And so I reached up and then I was going to the other room and I lost it. I fell on the deck. And uh,


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[Assistant] And I don't know what happened, but I was on the deck, but I wound up in a big room. It was a big area on this ship. It was lit up.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And there was all kinds of cots all around here and a guy was laying on it and everything. Well, I wake up and I'm thirsty. I've got to use, uh,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I've got a bowel movement, and I was a real man. So I hollered real loud, corpsman! There was no corpsman, and I didn't have any...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] All that stuff. And so, I hollered, and all these guys, they had head wounds and bandages on their head, you know, and they all hollered and everything, and I was like, what's going on? So I lay there and there was a guy next to me.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And of course his head is here and my head is over here.


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[Assistant] And I could see he was looking up at the ceiling and I said, hey mate, where are the corpsmen's here? And he didn't answer me.


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[Assistant] And I got real mad about him. I said, let me know what's going on here. So I hollered real loud again.


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[Assistant] And all these guys begin hollering and screaming and everything.


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[Assistant] And I was shaking my head, mad and everything, hungry and, and, just miserable. And so, I gave up and, uh,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And I laid there for a while, well I heard a door open. I looked up, and over here is about 30 yards I guess from me. And this big room, well there was a truck or something over there parked.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And they use those called tanks and trucks and things that are those ships right there.


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[Assistant] But this room is well lit and all these guys are just laying on, uh, cots, you know. Well, I heard this door slam. And look up.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And it's Dr. Anderson, the guy that operated on me. So I hollered real loud, Dr. Anderson! And all these guys began to holler and scream at me and everything. And he walked on down there and he just kinda shook his head and kept walking, you know. And, uh,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And then, man, I knew I was in trouble. I needed help, you know. I said, I'm gonna watch that door. If he comes through again, I'm gonna, he walked and went out the other door on the left side. So I, uh, waited.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And sure enough, about 30 minutes or something like that, I don't know. I heard this door open and here Dr. Anderson comes in.


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[Assistant] So I'm smart. I'm not going to holler and let these other guys fade me out. So I began waving.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I began waving. He was walking, kept walking right there. Then I said, I had to holler, so I hollered again, Dr. Anderson. And all these guys began to holler. And then he stopped and kind of shook his head. And I was waving at this time. And so he comes over there. He said, Harvey?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] What are you doing down here? I said I don't know. He said I've been looking two days for you. And I just presumed you'd been buried at sea. And uh, he said,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] While I was waiting for him, there was a group of about 12 guys came in and


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[Assistant] I could tell they were doctors and corpsmen and everything. They started over here and they'd come to a thing.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] There'd be two guys, they'd put their, uh, they had stethoscopes on, they'd put on these guys that were laying there. And sometimes they'd just shake their head and those corpsmen would take them off and put them on a, a, uh, uh, a stretcher and take them away. And they were working along iron.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I was hoping that Dr. Anderson would get back.


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[Assistant] And these guys would come to one guy right there and then they'd shake him off and leave him there and go on around.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Doctor Anderson came back down there while these guys were going. I said, Doctor, what are these guys doing? They're taking some of these guys out. He said, Harvey.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] These guys, there's nothing we can do to help them. They have head injuries, brain injuries, and they're brain dead right now. He said, there's no hope for them. We can't do anything for them. So we're burying most of them at sea. And I said, uh,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I said, what was I doing down here? And he said, I don't know how in the world they got you down here. And I told him what I'd done, you know.


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[Assistant] And they didn't know what to do with me, so they just put me down there with those guys.


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[Assistant] And so he said, you wait here. And I said, I'll wait here. So he went up and came back with, with a Florida corpsman with him. And they put me on a, on a stretcher and took me over to the door.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And, uh, that doctor, he got down on, dropped down on one knee and these guys were working together. I said, doctor,


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[Assistant] You can't help these guys in here. No, we can't help them. There's nothing we can do. They're in God's hands.


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[Assistant] So said, we're gonna pull into Guam and we will be taking you off. You'll be.


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[Assistant] Taking back to Hawaii and so forth. And so sure enough in about an hour they took me off the ship. Dr. Anderson came down and


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[Assistant] And I thanked him and I guess he saved my life.


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[Assistant] And then they took me to Aida Heights at Pearl Harbor and that's where I was.


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[Assistant] I was in a full body cast up to here. All the way down, they had split. Each leg had a cast over it too. On one piece. And, uh, they put me in the room with this guy here.


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[Assistant] The 1st Battalion, C Company, 26th Marines, 5th Division.


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[Assistant] Two, uh, at the end of the battle, after 36 days, I think, 14 of these guys walked off the island.


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[Assistant] The rest of them were wounded and carried off or died. A lot of them were buried at sea because they had six hospital ships.


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[Assistant] And they filled it up real fast and they had to go to Guam.


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[Assistant] And I've had this picture for years and when I'm hanging in, I used to hang over my bed and every night I would look at these guys, you know.


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[Assistant] And then I moved in into my living room right there and I could watch it. I looked at it every day because I don't want to forget these guys. I don't want to forget them.


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[Assistant] I can remember their faces, but it's hard for me to still put names to a lot of them.


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[Assistant] I like darts, I remember him. Peter Adler, I remember him. Uh, uh, officers, I remember him. And, uh,


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[Assistant] And just 14 guys walked off that island.


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[Assistant] War is really costly in lives and everything. And I'm not going to ever forget these guys.


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[Assistant] Aida Heights was the name of the hospital there. It overlooks Pearl Harbor. It was built there after the war started, you know. And so, I'm in this, uh,


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[Assistant] Let me digress here. I was put into a room in that hospital, Ada Heights.


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[Assistant] Hawaii. I was put in this room with another bed and a guy in that bed. And he had a head bandage.


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[Assistant] Over him right there and I was laying next to him and I couldn't see him and he couldn't talk to me and everything so I didn't say anything to him and everything.


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[Assistant] And the nurse would come in there and they'd take him off and bring him back after a while. And, uh, and he never talked and didn't ever say anything. I gave up trying to talk to him and so forth.


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[Assistant] Well, I'm laying there feeling sorry for myself. And, uh, I hear somebody.


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[Assistant] Fred Harvey, are you in this war? Just loud, you know.


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[Assistant] And I recognize Carter's voice. He has a voice to carry for a mile and everything. So I'm raised up. I'm in this room. It's about this big here, you know. I'm in the bed here and this other guy's in the bed over here.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And I raised up enough and I could see Carver down there and he's hollering, kept hollering, Fred Holler. This little nurse ran down there and got in his face and he said, you just keep your mouth shut. I mean, she really read him off. Well, I'm looking for my buddy.


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[Assistant] He said he, he said, she said he's in this ward but he's in a room on the end down here.


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[Assistant] He bandaged up like this, you know, his arms and everything, you know, taking those bayonets. And he was pushing Bill Cross, who's in a wheelchair, with one of his legs missing. And Carver was pushing him like this.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Bill was sitting there directing him and everything. So.


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[Assistant] And he said, Harvey and this guy standing here in this little room by themselves. They said, well,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Because of the injuries and everything. Why aren't you out here with the other Marines? Why, she went over and closed the door.


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[Assistant] She said, well, your buddy over here, we don't know what to do with him. He got injuries and, uh,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] His legs are blood clotted and so forth, so we don't know what to do for him. And, uh, and this guy over here, he's, he's lost his face. He can't communicate and he wants to die. And I said, God, I kind of scared me, you know, and everything.


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[Assistant] So Culver said, put them out here with the other Marines right there. And, uh,


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[Assistant] So we went up there and the nurses area right here is about halfway down the hall. That hall, that ward must have been


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[Assistant] Seventy yards long anyway, and beds are on each side. And the nurse's bed is right here in the middle. Well, they put me over here and put, uh, this guy over here on the right side.


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[Assistant] And, uh, Congress said, we'll take those bandages off of his face.


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[Assistant] And the nurse said, well, he doesn't want him taken out.


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[Assistant] They said, take him off right there. People are gonna have to see him. He's gonna have to learn to live with it. And so, well, I'd seen it.


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[Assistant] When they doctored him and I looked over there and they took it.


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[Assistant] This was all gone. You could see the back of his neck back there, his backbone and everything. Only thing on his face was his eyes and he had his ear. And, uh,


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[Assistant] And that way they can feed him, you know, there's no way he could eat anything. And they just...


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[Assistant] I, Ka- Ka- Ka- Ka- Ka- Ka- Ka- Ka- Ka- Ka- Ka- Ka- Ka- Ka- Ka- Ka-


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[Assistant] He, spirits rose, you know, and of course you couldn't tell us that, you know, but you could tell about his actions and everything. So Carver, this is a plastic surgery ward that we're on, and the guy that headed up was named


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I can't think of his name right now. But he was an all-American football player in Wisconsin. And he was a big, massive guy with big hands and broad shoulders.


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[Assistant] He was doing delicate operations on, uh, on guys, you know, plastic surgery. And so, uh,


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[Assistant] But Calvert told me later that, uh, that nurse had told him that there was no way that I'd live through it. And, uh, and I'd been in there about a week and, uh,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And Carver, talk to this doctor.


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[Assistant] What was his name? He was an all-American football player. Well anyway, he said his


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[Assistant] How you gonna fix it? He said, well, we're just gonna have to build him a new face. But we can't start on him until...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And so Carver said, well, do you have something that, she said, yeah, we got a little booklet over here that has six facial features on it. Carver said, let me see it. So he looked at six pages.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Six facial features on it. So Carver gave it to Harold here and he took him to each bed and had a note on there written,


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[Assistant] Pick out the best looking face in this, in this booklet so they all voted on which face they wanted, you know. And this guy, you know, he was, of course,


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[Assistant] He was happy to be out with the other guys and everything.


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[Assistant] And he would stay in a wheelchair a lot and go from place to place. Guys would come over and talk to him and if he had anything to say, you know, he'd write it out and so forth. And, uh,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Well, she came up and told me, we think we might have found a way to help you. And she told me, said there's a guy, had a, uh, item in the New England, uh, medical journal or something like that. And he was in, uh, New Orleans and his name was Faust.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And I remember the word South because there's an opera written about Dr. Faust, you know. So I remember that name all along. And so, uh, she told, uh,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The commander of that hospital, you know, that she wanted that guy to come over and look at me. So they put him on, got a plane, flew him over there and they looked at me and said, well, we can't do anything until we operate on him. And he said, I have a way. I think I might be able to help you. Well, they came in there and they took a machine, a vibrator or something and cut


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The top of that cast off of me and set it aside and then they put me on a table on my stomach and


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[Assistant] And Dr. Faust put six needles along my spine.


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[Assistant] And, uh, you know what a football or basketball needle looks like?


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[Assistant] Needle about that long and a little head on it, you know, to screw into a pump. Well anyway, that's the way that those things looked, you know. There's needles built like that. They weren't, weren't the real thing. But that's what they were. Well they stuck those along my spine. Then they put some kind of fluid in there. And I thought they'd sit, put gasoline on me and set me afire. God, I, I,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It burned, I thought I was on fire. I thought they were trying to kill me, really.


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[Assistant] They said, no, that's just a symptom. They're not burning up and everything. And, and so they gave me about six of those treatments.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And then the doctor started operating on, on me. Plastic surgery.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] They, uh, they took skin off my legs and put it on my, on my butt and everything.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And then they took a picture of me and it looked like


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] My legs and my buttocks have been worked over by a guy that, uh,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Made tattoos on guys. Looked like a doctor had, a tattoo artist had fouled up and this thing. My whole backside was just black.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Got me up, got me fixed, my legs began to thaw out, you know.


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[Assistant] And, uh, they came in and asked me where I wanted to be taken to hospital.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And the closest one to my hometown was Corpus Christi and that was nearly 900 miles. And so this doctor said, hey,


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[Assistant] Uh, Harvey, how about coming to New Orleans? We have a hospital there, naval hospital there, and I can look after you more. And I said, well that's great.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So I was in, in the hospital, sent down there, and Carver had been sent.


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[Assistant] Before I did, he had left and gone to the East Coast. And so they, uh, they put me on a plane and flew me to California.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Well that plane was a Constellation and that's what it was used for, it was a hospital thing. And we got nearly halfway home and that plane developed problems. And so here I am.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] With a bunch of other guys that were walking. I was the only one that was on a stretcher. And so the nurse came in there and put...


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[Assistant] Things around me and gave instructions to all these other guys. Cause they was expecting that plane to go.


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[Assistant] Damn. And so they decided it was one to the point of no return, so they turned around


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[Assistant] Took us back to Honolulu and all these hula girls met us on there, thought we'd be doing that, coming in for a vacation. They put on a show for us and, and then they fixed the plane and finally got me over to, uh,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Oh, what's that town across the bay? They have a football team there. Uh, San Francisco. What is the name of that? Alameda? Alameda, yeaah.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And that's where they landed me right there and they put me out on the tarmac and I had my hands over my eyes.


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[Assistant] Like that, the sun was shining in, right there.


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[Assistant] And somebody kicked me and said, your little bastard, where in the hell have you been? I'll look up in the Scarborough. Well, he had been taken to another hospital further down the coast about.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] 20, 30 miles from there. And he had been hitchhiking.


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[Assistant] For the last three weeks hitchhiking over every day.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] To meet in these planes that were bringing guys in, he finally found me. And so, they, they took me over there and...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I can bring up the name of that hospital he was in.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Well, I can't, it's unimportant. So the, uh, that doctor wanted me to be brought back to, uh, New Orleans. Well, Carver was still there in California when I left.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Well, I was, uh, and I got in pretty good shape, you know, I could walk around with a cane and crutches at times, and I heard that there was a farm out


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Outside, over across the river in, uh, in Algiers, Louisiana.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And the, uh, Navy had an ammunition dump over there on the river, across the river. And, uh,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] They let Marines go over there and rehab, rehab.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You know, get better and take care of things on the farm.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And so I heard about it and I begged them to let me go over there. So.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] They let me go over there with a stipulation that I would take care of chickens because I couldn't take care of anything else. And so.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Here I went over and I was taking care of a chicken and they had


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] These white-legged chickens and great facilities for them to live on. They never got on the ground. They was on wire, uh, uh,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Chicken wire, you know. And, uh, they had, uh,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, oats or something are planted, seeds thrown in there.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And these chickens would walk around and eat that green as it come out high enough. Well, I would gather up the eggs and take them in and, uh, doing that, you know.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Well, the guy that was taking care of that got real mad because that was a cushy job, but this is the only job I could do, you know.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And so I was taking care of the chickens, you know, and feeling sorry for myself and, and everything. Well, I had a bucket full of eggs and, uh, I'd take them over there and then take them up the naval base, uh, uh,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, eating place, you know. And, uh, they took care of all their eggs and so forth. Well anyway.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I was out there and had a bunch of that and I had a, walking on a, using a cane and, and I heard a horn sound right there and a guy was screaming and I look up and, and it was Lee Dorch. He's sitting up on the,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Cab of the, uh, truck and they were hauling slop from the, uh, uh, cafeteria, you know, and it was Carver. He had found me.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And then he told this story. Well he was shipped to an area up on, uh,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The East Coast. Do you remember what that place was? Well anyway, it was taken up there.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And he was discharged, so he tried to buy a motorcycle. And he called my mother and found out where I was facing.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And he said, don't tell Harvey where I'm at and everything. And so.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He couldn't buy a motorcycle because he didn't have enough money, so he hitchhiked down there. So he hitchhiked.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Down there, it took him three days to get down there, and he got his uniform was soiled, you know, and he'd been in it for about six days, and so,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And he's one of these guys that man had to be dressed completely. Well in that picture,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] We tell him that he was the only Marine that ever invaded with pressed dendries and all that.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And they had initials, I mean his name, Stencil Dorn is, uh, is, uh, spade, you know, in trenching too. Well he hit,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It took him six, six days, uh, no, six trips, uh,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Cleaning place, you know, and that guy cleaned his uniform, you know, and, and pressed it and everything for him because he had, he needed to look good all the time. So he, uh, was walking around having no idea what to do. So he saw a Red Cross car parked in front of a building right there.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And it was a Red Cross office right there. So he walked over and looked and there was a little lady sitting at the desk.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So he has his discharge papers and everything in there and he left his sea bag outside so he walked in there. He looked around, you know, like he was being followed.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I got up close to this lady and said, I've got to find a man that I'm on a special mission and I've got to find him, you know, it's a real critical thing. She said, I'll help you. She got fired up and she found out that


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, I was over there at Aida Heights at that naval ammunition base over there.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And so, she said, I'll take you over there. So she closes up his office, her office, and, and covers, holding his discharge papers on there, and looks around, you know, gets a C-bag, put it on there, and she goes down through town, you know, and,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Runnin' stop lights cause she was in that thing that had big red crosses on it, you know. And she gets him down there to the, uh,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] A ferry boat, that's where they had a bridge built across there. So uhm, and she had called over to base and they had the, uh,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeaah. So he gets over there and this guy is in this thing, uh, deal, he looks around and he thought he should be an admiral or something, you know, PFC. And so,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] This, uh, his car had a siren on it, so he turned on his siren to run him, uh, down to, uh,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, the little town that crossed, uh, uh, and got him to the base, and the guy was going to take him to the...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The headquarters office. He said, oh no, I can't stop there, I've got to go. And he said, I'll get down there some way. So he's standing there, and you see this truck coming around the corner, and it's just coming out, and it had two barrels of slop from the mess hall on it, and they


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] They tell him, hang on there, and he said, I'm not getting up there thinking a million flyers around and everything. And so...


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[Assistant] He, uh, there's two guys in the truck, so they put him, uh, they take the, uh, seabag and put it up there between them.


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[Assistant] And then he gets up on the hood and sits on the cab right there. And when they get close to that farm where I was.


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[Assistant] They began to honk their horn, and I was stomping the, uh, hood of that truck, hollering my name and everything. And I was so happy to see him, I cried. He came, he came over and, uh, I was really glad to see him, you know, it was just like,


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[Assistant] Losing your best friend, you know, and finding him in the end. And so, here I am.


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[Assistant] I'll take him over there to the sergeants who's in charge of us on that farm.


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[Assistant] That owner of that farm, when the war started, donated his farm


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[Assistant] Lens to be used to build ammunition dumps, you know, where the dump are.


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[Assistant] Mounds where they dig in the ground and had their thing. There's about 50 of those mounds along there. And so this sergeant


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[Assistant] God, I can't think of the names. He's in charge of the farm, you know, because that guy...


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[Assistant] Warned it was farmed back just like it was.


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[Assistant] They was using the house and there were six other Marines in there beside the sergeant that was, that was in charge of them. So uh,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] When Carver got, I took him over there, sergeant, sergeant was working on a wheel on a tractor and I said, hey sergeant, this is Lee Dorch, he's my buddy.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He just got into town, can he stay here? He said, yeaah, he can stay here. So, uh.


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[Assistant] He took us in to his desk right there and he gave us him a, a, uh,


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[Assistant] A card, you know, to get them in and out of the guy that had already left. So here covers the other act.


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[Assistant] He is going to help me with the chickens.


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[Assistant] And so, uh, we take over the chickens and this guy, big old red-headed guy,


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[Assistant] He was the guy that had the chicken job, which is the best job on the, on the farm. He had to give it up. He, he was mad at me. He wouldn't even speak to me. So here Carver was and on base with a,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] We decided that the chickens, some of those chickens weren't doing their job and Copper said we need to cull out the non-layers. So he called a, uh,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] A vet, veterinarian, uh, and asked him, uh, how he decided which one was layered. And he said, well, put two fingers at this part and everything.


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[Assistant] We got the wrong information and we took it wrong. And we killed a bunch of those.


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[Assistant] Layers. And it cut the production of eggs out. We got in trouble.


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[Assistant] They brought us, they brought me in cause copper couldn't go before the man, you know. And they were gonna send me back to the hospital and, and really mad and, and this, this sergeant was out there.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He said, well let them stay and I'll put them on the hogs.


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[Assistant] And so, they put us on the hog, that's the worst job on the deal.


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[Assistant] Yeah, from the hospital, yeah, I was discharged from the hospital and so I was free to go.


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[Assistant] Why don't you read that out loud because that introduces Coburn and what we meant to each other.


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[Assistant] Yeah, we, they took us out, uh, this lieutenant and this sergeant drove us out to the edge of town. And, uh, I drank a Coca-Cola and Cabra had a beer. And both these guys sleuthed us. And, uh,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And that sergeant had been in charge, he was in tears, he had to see us go. And so...


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[Assistant] Well, people wanted to hear the story right there and I'd taken a lot of notes and so I decided to write a book, but it's kind of hard for me because, uh,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I had, I quit high school because I couldn't pass English.


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[Assistant] Yeah, I have weights in my apartment and I work out on the weights and I have one of those running machines where you pump and pedal and I stay in shape and eat the right kind of food.


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[Assistant] I want to die happy, so I'm staying in good health.


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[Assistant] I loved the Marines and, uh, I know that sometime in the future I'll rejoin those Marines and we will march through eternity with each other. It'll be a homecoming. Thank you.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Well, it was an honor to serve the U in this great country of ours. And God bless us all.


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[Assistant] It does feel good. It's been a lot of work, but it's been awesome to it. And being able to tell those kinds of stories like you just read. And even though I've read that now a hundred times, it just takes me immediately back to that situation.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And uhm, it's just, uh, extraordinary. We were able to work with some incredible, incredible SEALs like that young man.


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[Assistant] Stand by to get some, said someone over the Inner Squad radio and the calm demeanor you might expect of a flight attendant telling airline passengers to stow their tray tables for landing. The street in front of us had emptied of people.


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[Assistant] Like magic, the local citizens had all suddenly disappeared. And we knew what that meant. Enemy attack was imminent. The hair on the back of my neck stood at rigid attention.


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[Assistant] After many a vicious gunfight in Ramadi, standby to get some was a running joke that eased the tension right when we knew trouble was coming.


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[Assistant] The more nonchalantly it could be said, under the direst of circumstances, the funnier it was.


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[Assistant] It was broad daylight as our patrol of SEALs and Iraqi soldiers made its way on foot down the narrow city street, bordered by high concrete walls on both sides. Suddenly the world exploded.


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[Assistant] Dozens of bullets snapped through the air, each with a sharp supersonic crack, and smashed into the concrete wall next to me with thunderous impact. Shards of concrete flew everywhere.


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[Assistant] The heavy volleys of incoming fire sounded like multiple jackhammers simultaneously chewing up the street and the walls all around us. We had walked right into an enemy buzzsaw.


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[Assistant] Insurgent fighters hit us from multiple directions with belt fed machine guns. I couldn't see them or where they were shooting from.


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[Assistant] But the num- the number of enemy bullets flying through the air around us was crazy.


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[Assistant] There was no place to hide. With high walls on both sides, the narrow south central Ramadi street provided no cover.


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[Assistant] The only thing between us and the enemy machine guns was a single parked car on the side of the road some distance up the block and the typical trash strewn about.


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[Assistant] The patrol was in a dual column formation. Each column split on opposite sides of the street, hunkered close to the walls.


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[Assistant] There was nothing to get behind that could protect us from bullets. But we did have something on our side. Devastating firepower.


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[Assistant] We fully expected a firefight on every patrol into this enemy hill neighborhood, and we rolled in heavy.


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[Assistant] Each squad of eight SEALs packed at least four belt fed machine guns to suppress any enemy attack we encountered.


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[Assistant] When we came under fire, our immediate response with violent and overwhelming gunfire provided the only answer. Cover and move.


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[Assistant] Having learned through the humbling experience of months of urban combat.


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[Assistant] Task unit bruiser had had plenty of practice in this fundamental gunfighting principle.


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[Assistant] Within nanoseconds, the SEALs with the big machine guns up front unleash the most ruthless and lethal barrage of fire you could imagine.


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[Assistant] Despite the intensity and violence of the close urban combat, I couldn't help but smile.


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[Assistant] Absolutely applies. It could absolutely apply to any of those situations. I think that was, that was what was amazing about extreme ownership, uhm, to see how people applied that in so many aspects of their lives. And now, I think with dichotomy and leadership, it's exactly the same thing.


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[Assistant] Every behavior or characteristic carried out by a leader can be taken too far.


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[Assistant] Leaders can become too extreme and upset the balance required to effectively lead a team.


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[Assistant] When balance is lost, leadership suffers and the team's performance rapidly declines.


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[Assistant] Even the fundamental principles of combat leadership and extreme ownership can get out of balance. A leader can cover and move too much and step on the toes of other leaders, departments, or divisions. A plan can be too simple and fail to cover likely contingencies.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] A team could go too far with prioritize and execute, resulting in target fixation and loss of situational awareness on newly emerging problems and threats.


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[Assistant] Even decentralized command can be taken too far when too much autonomy is given to supportant leaders who then don't fully understand strategic goals and how to execute in support of those goals.


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[Assistant] And this idea continues on with just about everything a leader does. Leaders must be close with their people, but not too close that it becomes a problem. They must hold the line with discipline.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But they must not become tyrannical. A leader can even become too extreme with extreme ownership. When a leader takes so much ownership of everything in his or her world that members of the team feel there's nothing left for which they can take ownership.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] When this happens, team members will execute only at the boss's specific direction without any root ownership or buying themselves, resulting in a team far less capable of overcoming obstacles and accomplishing the mission.


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[Assistant] Therefore, balance in leadership is crucial to victory.


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[Assistant] And there are things that, that I struggle with. You know, I think there's, there are things that you struggle. I think we, each of us struggle with them. It's the hardest part about leadership.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And as we've seen that over and over again, that, that, you know, that brief introduction that we gave it in chapter 12 of extreme ownership.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, you know, introduce the concept, but this dives so much deeper into those challenges. And I think that's what, what I love about this book is it answers the questions that we get most often about, about how to balance that because that's the hardest part, uh, and it's so difficult to do.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And I remember at our first muster, there was a question about, you know, can you take, you know, can extreme ownership go too far? I actually answered the question. Well, I think if you're properly understanding what extreme ownership means, no.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, but, but you actually answered that as like, absolutely, you can take too much ownership. And I think that's what people take that as, well, I've got to do everything. Like, no, you, you're responsible for everything. That's what extreme ownership means. Uh, but certainly, uh, you can, you can absolutely take too much ownership where no one's doing anything. And I think we explained that pretty well in this book and, and,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] This, this book was written just like Extreme Ownership. The Economy of Leadership was written to help leaders as a reference manual. And if it's something that, you know, if I see pages, uh, like we see so many copies of Extreme Ownership, I mean, I want to see pages that are underlined, that are highlighted, that are tabbed, that are, that are utilized.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And if we've done that and this is a manual that helps leaders lead better, uh, and be better people and lead better teams, then this will have accomplished its mission.


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[Assistant] You definitely gotta watch out for that. It's easy for us to see, you know, we always talk about the attachment. Attachment is so important. And for us with, you know, through our company Echelon Front, we're working with these leaders and working with these companies. You can see it, you know, it just, it just stands out, uh, so obvious that someone is


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, and then you're saying, well, you have to be careful about that. You have to, you have to balance it. So once, you know, it is the absolute most common problem we see all the time. And even for, you know, folks that have read Extreme Ownership, you know, three or four, you know, multiple times that are really trying hard to be better leaders.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] They struggle with that and this is, uh, something to help them, uh, and help leaders everywhere. And I, you know, we wrote the book too so that it could be read. Um, it's, it's a follow on certainly a sequel.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It expands on the concepts. However, we did write it so that it is a standalone book and you can read, uh, you can read Extreme Motorship if you have, you can read Dichotomy without having read Extreme Motorship. You'll certainly understand it and be able to apply it.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I actually do. I actually do feel, I feel it's better. I mean, I'm interested to hear what readers think about it, but I think that it's more useful and applicable to, uh, to leaders.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I mean, we have three years of additional leadership experience and not only evaluating our experiences in combat and in the SEAL teams, but, uh, but now working with hundreds of leaders. And, uh, I mean, really, uh, we're talking.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You know, a couple hundred plus companies that we've worked with in that time, uhm, easily, you know, between just me and you probably, that's not even counting some of the other members of our team. So uhm, we've seen this in a whole lot of different scenarios and I think it really addresses the, it's a direct application to the problems that we see.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, so I'm pretty hopeful and I'm looking forward to, to, to reader's feedback on it.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Bright orange tracers streaked like laser beams just a few feet over our heads. Each supersonic bullet zipping past with a thunderous crack. Holy shit, I thought, as we quickly ducked down behind the roof wall. Those are friendly shooting at us.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I looked over at Dave Burke, who crouched down nearby. Like the other seals on the roof with us, we tried to stay low enough not to get our head shot off. Dave looked back at me and shook his head with a smile that mixed humor and concern. That's not cool, Dave said, the understatement of the year.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Dave Burke was a U.S. Marine Corps major, a fighter pilot by trade. He had been the lead instructor at the legendary U.S. Navy Fighter Weapon School, better known as Top Gun. Dave had left the cockpit behind and volunteered to serve on the ground as a forward air controller in the most dangerous place in Iraq, Ramadi.


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[Assistant] He led a supporting arms liaison team, or SALT, attach to the U.S. Marine Corps 5th Air Naval Gunfire Liaison Company.


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[Assistant] Dave and his 12 marines from Salt 6 accompanied Charlie Platoon to coordinate with the aircraft supporting this operation in the skies overhead.


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[Assistant] They patrolled in with us on foot to spearhead the operation ahead of the US Army and Iraqi Army units. A US tank 200 yards away had fired a burst from its heavy machine gun directly over our position. It was friendly fire, a blue on blue in US military parlance.


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[Assistant] To be killed or horribly wounded by enemy fire was one thing. To be killed by our own American forces was something much worse.


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[Assistant] That was way too close for comfort, I thought, in the seconds following as I crouched as low as possible behind the low concrete wall that was our only means of cover.


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[Assistant] We had to shut that down immediately and alert the tank that we were friendly forces. To do so, I had to contact the specific tank commander directly via radio and tell them to cease fire.


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[Assistant] The tank's heavy machine gun was a .50 caliber M2 Browning, known as the Maudeuce. It packed a hell of a punch.


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[Assistant] In U.S. military service since 1933, it had proven its deadly effectiveness in every American war since World War I.


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[Assistant] Each massive round could take a man's head clean off or remove the bulk of his chest cavity.


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[Assistant] It could also punch right through concrete walls, like the one we were hiding behind. We had just received a fully automatic burst of probably a dozen rounds in a matter of seconds. If I didn't shut down the fire immediately and let the US tank know we were friendlies, it could mean horrible wounds and death for a number of us.


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[Assistant] Echo, Echo and I, uh, we see eye to eye in the movie quotes. There was a little, there was a use of parlance in there too, that, uh, in the parlance of our times. In the parlance of our times, you threw a little, little Big Lebowski in there.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That we had previously. Look, that was a crazy situation and we were, I thought we'd done everything. What was so crazy about that situation for us is I thought we'd done everything in our power.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] To mitigate the risk of that and let everybody know where we were, marked our position, you know, talk, talked and coordinated with people and, uh, and to still get shot at by friendlies.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] This isn't good at all. So it was, it was a, I was fumbling for that radio trying to get and talk to them immediately. Uh, and thank God, uh, as we talked about on previous podcasts, uh, you'd come down on us to be able to use, uh, to be able to learn how to use those radios ourselves and not just rely on the radio man.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And I was able to swap over and make direct comps to that tag and get them to ceasefire.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It's not effective. It's never effective to do that. And I think so many leaders that want to just, you know, why would they just do what I tell them to do? It's, it's, people get really frustrated by that.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But obviously there, you gotta hold the line. You absolutely have to hold the line, you know, and if you'd have relented on, on us being able to learn how to use our radios, I mean, that could have cost lives right there. Another burst of rounds comes, comes to the roof wall, or we take a main gun round. Now you're talking to the cannon on the tank, the 120 millimeter main gun round.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You know, just smash through both sides of the walls. You know, it would have, it would have been absolutely catastrophic. Those guys think, you know, they're under attack. They're shooting back at what they think is enemy that didn't realize it and it's not like


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That's the hard part, right, is that you've gotta hold the line and there's standards that can't be compromised and you've gotta, you're failing your team and you're failing as a leader if you're not keeping those standards, uh, high and making sure the team achieves them and yet also you can't be the unrelenting taskmaster, the slave driver that just smashes people down and says shut up and do what I tell you to do.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] As I reflected upon Jaco's demonstration of a leader's responsibility to ensure standards are maintained, I thought about the times in my career when I failed to do so.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] As a young leader, I knew there were times we needed to improve our performance, do another run through the kill house where we practice close quarters combat or add an additional rehearsal to ensure we were fully prepared. Yet in those moments, I sometimes hadn't held the line. I hadn't pushed the team hard enough.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Any additional work assigned to the team is going to get pushed back and generate complaints. And there were times when I let things slide, confusing the idea of taking care of your people with allowing them not to work as hard.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But in the end, that resulted in mediocre performance. And the team never got better. Never held each other accountable. This was a failure of leadership. My leadership.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I also recognized the dichotomy. There were other times when I was overbearing. I insisted on doing things a certain way because it was my way or harped on trivial matters that were strategically unimportant, thinking I was doing right by holding the line.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It caused unnecessary friction, stifled growth, and inhibited junior leaders on the team from stepping up.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It prevented us from functioning properly with effective decentralized command.


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[Assistant] I had seen and worked for numerous leaders throughout my Navy career who had been overbearing and it wasn't the way I wanted to lead. Some of them imposed harsh discipline, screamed at their people and crushed the morale of the team. No one wanted to follow them.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] They might accomplish an immediate task, but in the long run, the team's growth was smothered. Often, their negative example stood starkly in my mind. I never want to be a leader like that.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Got it. Yeah, it is super liberating. I think that's the, you know, one of the things that, that I, you know, that, that I learned from you as we started working together, I mean,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And I talk to people about this all the time, I've talked about it on the podcast before, but it was the kind of things that you know you probably should be doing.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But for whatever reason you are, and, and, and, you know, for, you could just put it in perspective for me of like, it's very black and white, of like,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] No, if you're not, if you're not holding the line on these things that are important and pushing your team to perform at the highest standard or making sure they're not going to do something that's going to get them in trouble or cause massive issues, not only for us, but for the entire, you know, not only for our unit, but the entire SEAL teams.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Then, then that's, you're failing them as a leader. You've gotta hold the line on that stuff. You've gotta, and, and it is very liberating to say, oh, check. Okay, that's the way it is. And I, and I think that ambiguity is very frustrating for people, but they don't know what's right, they don't know what's wrong, they can get away with stuff.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You know, I mean that's, yeaah, those are the kind of things where there needs to, there's gotta be a standard, you gotta hold that standard, and it's, I, the team is so much better off when you do that, and certainly Bruiser absolutely was.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That is hard too. I mean that's so hard because that is absolutely in my nature is to, and I think, and so many people that resonate with extreme ownership that come to the musters that, I mean we've got default aggressive leaders that want to go dominate the universe.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And you've got to really, you've got to really take a step back and detach and think, okay, what am I not thinking about? What am I not seeing? How am I planning for those contingencies? We just talked about, you know, a situation today, you know, with a client where


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, you know, they, they, when things are going really well, right, that's when you gotta be looking at, okay, what, what, what's, what's, what's about to go wrong that I haven't seen yet? You know, what am I not planning for?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It is very, very difficult to balance as a leader, uh, but you absolutely have to balance it. You have to be aggressive. You have to maneuver. You know, so many people get, you know, the, the paralysis through analysis that people talk about, uh, don't want to make it, make a decision until


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You know, the solution is right there and it's a hundred percent guaranteed. Nothing is ever a hundred percent guaranteed. And by the time that's, you know, that's even close to being that, you know, the, the, your competition's already maneuvered on the battlefield, you're going to get wiped out and killed, you know, in the business world, you know, you're going to get, uh, uh, you're going to get crushed by your competition. And, and so, and yet.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Being aggressive and also being prudent so that you're not falling into the traps, not running to your deaths, not setting your team up for total disaster.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I've read a lot about Patton, the executive vice president said with pride, referring to General George S. Patton Jr., the famous U.S. Army general whose exploits in World War II were legendary.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I love that you referenced Patton in your presentation. I want exactly the kind of disciplined organization around here that Patton expected. We need people who carry out orders, not question them.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I could tell right away that the executive vice president had no previous military experience. He clearly misunderstood how effective leaders in the military led their teams. It was not through rigid authoritarianism. Do this because I said so or you'll be punished.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Sure, there were those in the military who tried to lead like that, but it was never effective.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It was a great example. They had conscripts, but his men loved him and admired him and held him in tremendous regard because he rewarded them, he gave them credit, he


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He explained why, I mean, he, he was, he was a guy who was always put himself at the forefront, uh, of, uh, of where the fighting was. And, uh, you know, much more so than just a political leader, like many of the Roman.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So, just a phenomenal leader on the battlefield, and so even then, the most effective leaders are always going to be, they're always going to try to get the team on board with a mission, help them understand why they're doing it, put a greater purpose in their mind.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And I think so often, as you said before, you know, a leader, a leader like that, this was, this was an aggressive leader.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You can't do that. If you do that, you're not ever going to be as successful as you could be if you actually, uh, get the team on board, explain why to them, and tie that to the bigger purpose of what you're trying to accomplish in the world.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yelled and screamed at us all the time. Like I've, I've, I've talked about on this, you know, I think on the podcast, we certainly talk about all the time. I mean, the number of times that Jaco screamed and yelled at me.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Zero. Zero times in all the years that we worked together and I know I gave him


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, and he didn't do that because he realized that it wasn't effective. So, uh, now listen, there, there is, uh, there is a time where, you know, if there's a major safety issue going on and you're trying to get people's attention and you want people to ceasefire, uh, or you need to rally the troops where you gotta raise your voice and get people's attention. Uh, and I think that's, you can't be afraid to do that as a leader.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That's a great point too, right? And it's, it's the kind of, you know, never cry wolf, uh, you know, story. So when, when you're, if you're yelling all the time, I need those vehicles over here right now, when there's nothing at stake and it's no big deal and it's just a routine movement, you know, then when you do that and you really need it,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So I think that's another reason why, uh, I actually have seen Jaco raise his voice on one occasion.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Relations with your allies are critical. It's cover move, right? You gotta work together as a team. And, and if you've got, if you're working against each other, that's absolutely catastrophic. Uh, I think for us with Iraqi troops, you know,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Again, we, we talked about how, uh, that was liberating, right? For, for, you know, the, the big pushback was always like, is we want to do just seal, unilateral operations. We call it just seals or just Americans, uh, you know, just like NATO ally forces and, um, and not work with, with, uh, Iraqi troops and, you know,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] When you said that right away, that's the reason, listen, don't even put up a concept operations brief, a CONOPS we call it, which is the approval for the plan that doesn't have Iraqi troops on it. Okay, got it. We're going to have to figure out a way to make that happen. So that was, the line was drawn. We knew we had to do that and we knew it was also important. I mean, cause you explained that we talked about it. We, we thought through that.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, but obviously we had to take some steps to mitigate that. So I think there were.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, there were, again, this is the dichotomy. It's, you gotta be balanced. There were, I saw units who thought, uhm, and we gave some examples, uh, even extreme ownership, certainly, uhm, and we talk about regularly about where you, you see a unit that would take two or four Americans and a bunch of Iraqis and try to go in a really bad area, like,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Man, you're not going to be able to count on those Iraqis in the middle of a gunfight when they're overwhelmed. You better have enough Americans there to have your back.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So, so they were asking too much of, of the Iraqis. And then there were other units that didn't want to do, you know, didn't want to have any Iraqis with them, didn't want to have any relationships with them. Uh, and I had some Stern talking to, you know, talking to some of my guys who wouldn't, weren't treating Iraqi soldiers with respect.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Well, they actually, they've just talked to probably, you know, the last 25 people who've screamed and yelled.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I think they, we learned the lesson. It's, it's, let's do, uh, let's use them for their strengths. And, and that's what we learned in Ramadi. Uh, we, we put them in situations where they could succeed. Uh, we took enough Americans where we could actually succeed and, and, and help them succeed. And, uh, and of course we put some,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And, uh, you know, we were in a position to, to handle those problems and we never had any issues as a result. But that's, that's what you have to do. It's, it's all about building coalitions and, and, and using people's strengths, uh, and complimenting those strengths and working together as a team. It's, it's cover move. If you don't do that, you're going to, you're going to fail.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] There you go. I agree. There you go. I like it. I will say it musters, uh, when...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I had a storage unit over there and there's like, my storage unit was like right up the hill. Those are good burgers dude.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I mean why, I would, I would, I would rather focus on, you know, uh, on the more, uh, the more foundational aspects of the game until I can get those a little bit better. I think that makes a lot of sense to me.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Absolutely. There'll be plenty of people, uh, who are in your age group.


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[Assistant] More than get after it with the, the 445 club workouts are, uh, voluntary. Uh, we usually have, I mean, we probably have what, you know, 80, 85% participation. I mean, it's massive.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I don't think, I don't think there is a maximum amount, I think it just has to be controlled. And you gotta have...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You gotta have some decentralized command where people understand. If there's just a bunch of people in a meeting and everyone's kind of speaking in turn, uhm, and talking over each other, you're not gonna get anything done. So you gotta have, there's gotta be one leader who's running that. There's gotta be some, some, you know, some other, uh, uh, subordinate leaders that, uh, and, and


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[Assistant] One person's got to drive that meeting and make sure that when someone starts going down a rabbit hole, okay, you guys have a sidebar conversation. Uh, afterward, let's keep this meeting focused and let's, and ultimately the decision maker who can focus the team on a single course of action, get her by behind them.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I think it's a great one. It helps people, it helps people listen to you as well. Right? I mean, when, if, if you're the boss and you're just sitting back and you're not saying anything and then all of a sudden you're like, Hey guys, we're getting way off topic here. This is what we need to do. Here's the direction we need to go. Got it. Everyone's back on track. Whereas if you're in the middle of it, then.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Look, that, that absolutely worked. It worked for us. When you, when you said something over the radio, like, got it, we're good, like, decision made, everyone's on board, and, uh, I think it's, it's something that, uh,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You've got to, you've got to focus on what, like when a leader talks, it should matter. And, and I think you can be, you got to be really careful about that. Uh, and I've certainly been a chief violator that is like going off into too many different directions, but, uh, that you did extremely well in tasking a bruiser and it works. Uh, and every leader should be very cognizant of that.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Talking about being humble, not passive and pushing back where it matters, uh, in the dichotomy leadership. Uh, that's, uh, that whole section is talking exactly about that. It's a very hard thing for people. And the basis of this question though, is the us versus them, right? Front lines versus corporate headquarters, uh, and,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You've got to defeat that. If you're a good leader, you've got to recognize, look, we're all on the same team. We can't do what we need to do without having the support.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, from the corporate headquarters, you know, and in the corporate headquarters that often times, so not only is there frustration up the chain, there's also frustration down the chain. You hear that all the time, like, well the front lines, they don't really get it, they don't get it over there. Well, listen, the front lines is where the actual mission gets won or lost. Yeah.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, I think it's, this to me sounds like, uh, I was thinking about this question and


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It sounds to me like, uh, maybe a junior leader that was promoted up the chain. Cause that, cause that's where you really feel like when I go from, you know, the assistant platoon commander where I'm like kind of one of the boys and I'm, you know, we're, we can.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Pretty quick, because I've been to BUDS, uh, and, and, uh, SEAL Qualification Training, you know, SQJR Advanced Training with, uh, with several guys, uh, and I knew these guys very well. And, you know, I think we had a big house party hanging out, you know, having a good time and, and, uh, everybody's over at my house. And all of a sudden I realized something I did all the time, you know, as an assistant platoon commander, and all of a sudden, uh, we're in at work, you know, the next week and I got to,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Gotta, uh, make some, some tough calls and we gotta get, you know, drive the standards a little bit higher where we're at and there's some pushback. And you realize like, okay, when it's, when it's time to give people some bad news or say, hey, we're not doing as good as we should, we need to fix that. And they kind of give you the leg.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You know, I remember coming into your office and, uh, I'd come in and hang out all the time in your office. You know, you'd come in and hang out in the platoon space. I mean, I'd come, you know, we'd see each other in the gym. We were like, we were always trying to find a way to like hang out and talk and, and, uh,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It was, even when Seth Stone was all the way across the other side of the city, I mean, you know, we'd still connect with him and talk to him on the phone once in a while. Yeah, well I talked to him all the time on the, uh,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Are, uh, you know, in, in a platoon space and, uh, you know, guys like, I remember Tony would come in there, I'd come in, I'd walk in and I'd see the win plan written up on Chaco's whiteboard and tasking at Rooser where Tony had written down all the things that we needed to do to win in Ramadi.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, you can't think that I can't talk to anyone, I can't interact with anyone. I think there's, you're gonna be unsuccessful as a leader. Uhm, you know, if, if you try to roll that way, it's just not gonna work.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Awesome. Amazing seal. Love the guy. And, uh, hopefully he can be on here one of these days after his retirement comes one of these days. But, uh, he was, I remember we were, we were up in, uh, Nevada training and, uh, we took a couple of days to go snowboarding.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] This is what we had needed to emphasize more. And, uh, just as, you know, you talked about this when we were talking about Jaws 2, you know, whether or not, you know, the sequel is going to be as good. And, you know, we had, we had pressure to write a book. Extreme ownership did very well. Like, hey, you guys should write another book.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] We didn't want to write another book until we actually had something useful to write about that would impact leaders for the better, help them be better people, better leaders, lead better teams, uh, lead better lives. And, and that's what this is. The economic leadership answers, uh, the most difficult challenges and, and obstacles that we see leaders face. And I think that three years.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You know, one thing that, uh, extreme ownership did for us is, I mean, our company blew up as a result of Echelon Front. We were able to work with so many more, uh, leaders and so many more companies. And we got to see this over and over and over and over and over again.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And, uh, and this, uh, this is capturing those, those issues, uh, that we saw, uh, and then the solutions to, to solve those problems through leadership.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Awesome stuff. Yea, Origen makes the best stuff. It's, uh, I've got, I think I have like five different, uh,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I'm telling you, I know, but there's something about like the, it actually has give to my shoulders. I can move in a way that like I, with my other gi, it's like, it's, it's really tight. I can't move and I feel like I don't, I actually, I seem to be more successful.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I gotta say for the folks in Michigan though, like, uh, being up there in North Dakota, doing some work, like when you go to Alaska and you, you know, it's like pretty cool out and you got your jacket on, you look around, there's dudes in like t-shirts just hanging out. That's the way I was. It's all relative.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] On the trucker hat flex-foot debate though, flex-foot I think is great. I like flex-foot hats, but I will say I got a large melon and being able to adjust is important. Particularly when you're fishing and you're rolling out and your hat gets blown off and then it's soaking wet.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, sure. I, I drink a lot of coffee and a lot of caffeine and I, yeah, that's, Jock-A-Y-T's got plenty of caffeine for me, it's legit. I'll tell you what I like about it, with the cans in particular, it's been crazy hot in Texas this summer, and just, just pull like a freezing cold one out of the, uh,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] If I'm about to jump on my truck, that's, you know, 125 degrees from sitting out in the sun and crack open a super cold.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Then we got Extreme Ownership, obviously, which, uh, Jaco and I wrote. Been out for three years now. We have a new, new edition out. And of course, uh, Dichotomy of Leadership.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Which, uh, we were just talking about. And that's for, uh, it's available now for pre-order. It'll be released September 25th. Super excited about that. Looking forward to all you readers.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Out there, uh, providing us some feedback on that. And, uh, I hope this is at least as useful to you, uh, in, in your lives, professional and personal lives as extreme ownership. So go get some dichotomy leadership. Find the balance.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] People still come up to us and have, you know, with a, with a, and the original paper this was printed on was not very good for extreme ownership. You know, it doesn't have the, uh, it doesn't have the number one New York Times bestseller across the top. So every once while we still see some of those, you're like, wow, that's a, that's a, that was a first printing run. It's pretty cool to see that.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] If you're interested in coming and bringing us in to talk to your, your, your leadership team, uh, your, your frontline troops, your mid-level managers, whatever it may be, uh, that's what we do with Exelon Front is we solve problems through leadership.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Everything that we wrote about, extreme ownership, all the things that we just talked about for dichotomy of leadership. This is what we do. Uh, it's me and Jaco. We launched this company going on seven years now.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, and we've worked with a lot of companies since, and now, you know, in addition we've got, uh, to me and Jaco, we've got JP Donnell, we've got Dave Burke, we've got Flynn Cochran, we've got some Mike Cirelli, and we just picked up a new member of our team, uh, main gun Mike Bahama.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] A company commander with us in Ramadi. Outstanding, outstanding guy. Awesome team of folks. And, uh, so you're interested in what we do through Echelon Front? Go hit us up at echelonfront.com.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] For our military, law enforcement, firefighters, border patrol.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Paramedics, first responders, anybody in uniform, we're, we're launching our first ever, uh, first responder military uniform wearing focused leadership.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, gathering and this is, we're calling it the roll call roll call 001. Uh, first ever is going to happen, uh, September 21st in Dallas.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And, uh, this thing is, it was by request. We worked with so many different, uh, first responders and, uh, you know, fire, uh, fire departments and law enforcement groups and police departments.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Federal, state, local, we worked with all levels of, uh, you know, of, uh, of these groups. And we've had so many folks say, hey, can we have a, a, a focused leadership conference just for us? And that's what this is. So we've got several hundred people have already, already signed up for this thing.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] This is for you guys. This is for all you listeners that are interested in this. We tried to make it at a price point that was much more affordable than the muster so that we could have as many folks attend as could come.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And, uh, we hope you come from far and wide to be there. We're going to be talking about the importance of training, the importance of, uh, dealing with what you deal with every day and driving those standards and, uh, and pushing your team, uh, and leading up the chain, uh, as, as well as, uh, you know, all those kinds of specific


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Law enforcement, firefighter, first responder, uh, military focused issues, uh, that we can really dive into. You know, we don't have to talk about the business leader stuff because this is for you guys. That's what it's for. So if you're interested in that, if you're on the fence, if you're thinking about it, come join us for a roll call at, uh, in Dallas, September 21st.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And of course you've heard on this podcast, we've, we launched a new company, a subsidiary company.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And, uh, you can check that out at, uh, at, at efoverwatch.com. It's, uh, it's a great company designed to, uh, we, we, one of the biggest things that, that, uh, that we see from the companies we work with is people ask us, where can we get people like you? Where can we get folks with a mindset of extreme ownership?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And so we started that in the special operations world and the goal of Overwatch is to take special operations veterans and combat aviator veterans and place them in companies with, uh,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Place them in companies who are looking for people with that mindset. And EF Overwatch is, uh,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, folks to place, uh, and offer them job opportunities. And we have a lot more clients than we have on the candidate side. So, if you're a special operator, uh, and you're, you're about to be retired, or, or leaving, uh, just leaving the military, or have left, uh, even a few years ago, or on the combat aviation side,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Go to efoverwatch.com, fill out the, uh, uh, the application there and start the paperwork because we've got, there's an awesome opportunity.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, here for some great companies with some great leadership positions and some promising promotion opportunities in some companies that exhibit extreme ownership that have that as part of their culture. So don't miss out on those opportunities. Go to the website.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, input your information, efoverwatch.com, and uh, come get in the game. There's a lot of, a lot of great work to be done, a lot of massive opportunity out there.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] This is Jocko Podcast number 134 with Echo Charles and me, Jocko Willink. Good evening Echo. Good evening.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I was always in the wrong place at the wrong time. I can see where someone could get that idea.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I don't think that at all. It's in fact quite the opposite.


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[Assistant] So great that I thought my mind just might fracture.


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[Assistant] But fortunately, I can tell you that I didn't break.


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[Assistant] There were times, there were times when I saw the cracks.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Even during peacetime, I lost friends and I lost teammates.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And then once the war started, it just escalated.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Not just for me, not by any stretch whatsoever. Every...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Military member has dealt with death in some way over the past 17 years of war.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] There've also been life-changing wounds.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Because the bombs and the bullets and the IEDs and the mortars and the rockets, they do not care who you are at all.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And maybe I'm a little more paranoid than the next person and maybe I don't always sleep that well and maybe there's times when some thought or some memory catches me off guard and I end up reliving a moment from the past. A moment from the past that I wish I could change.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] When I want to go back and erase all that pain and replace it with relief.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And the answer to that question is no.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Wrapped up in that pain and wrapped up in that discomfort and wrapped up in that stress and anxiety. Wrapped up in all that is the polar opposites of all those feelings.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] There was happiness, there was focus and security, and there was peace.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And that is because I knew that my brothers would take care of me no matter what.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You see, my old job allowed me to work with some of the best guys in the world.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Not all of them. You've heard me talk about that before. There's.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Substandard people in every organization in the world, there's a bell curve. And the bottom of the bell curve is filled with the same deficient people you'll find anywhere.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The guys I worked with were righteous, and noble, and hardworking, and it was humbling to be around them.


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[Assistant] None of us are. Did they have flaws? Yes, absolutely. All of us fall short.


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[Assistant] Through all the horror and the fear and the pressure.


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[Assistant] There were always some guys that I knew without a shred of doubt would stand beside me and hold the line no matter what.


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[Assistant] That I knew I could always count on, no matter what. Here with me tonight.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He's done more for me and for the teams and for our great nation than the world is ever going to know.


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[Assistant] He's a former recon marine. A very recently retired SEAL officer. And he's someone that's never let me down.


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[Assistant] March 1st. And so no one knows anything about you, which is the way it is. And uhm, so let's get to know a little bit about you. Starting with the beginning. Let's start in NorCal. NorCal. That's where you were born, right? In NorCal.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] At what point did you realize that you were going to go into the military?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Oh, it, uh, it, uh, yeaah. The Laker. National Trading Center.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You know what's interesting? I was talking to Dave Burke once again today. Good deal. Yeah, good deal. Dave. We were talking about reading about face and


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The older I got, the more it meant to me, and there's a quote from Musashi that I talked about on the podcast, which is, it's something like this, and I'm not going to get it perfectly right, but it's something like this.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] When you know the way, then you see the way in all things.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So, About Face is not a leadership book at all.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But when you read it and you are thinking about leadership, it's just all about leadership. It's 100% about leadership. But it reminds me of what you're saying, like when you're a little, when you're a kid and you don't know the way yet, and your grandfather could be telling you these stories, and it sounds kind of cool or whatever,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But compared to when you actually know and understand war and you, it's just a totally different story. And as a matter of fact, speaking of that,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] When you were running the Jotzi course, I was, I came in and I was gonna do like the brief that I would do to the Jotzi course.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And y-you know, you were there, it was like the 10th time you were gonna watch it, and I was like, hey, are you gonna hang out and watch this, or are you just gonna leave and go do like a workout or something? And you're like, no, I'm-I'm gonna stick around. And I was like, why you-for what? And you're like, I learned something new every time. I was like, dang. So, that's pretty, uh, definitely, when you get older, you can appreciate some of these things from, uhm, when you know the way.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That's the part that I didn't account for, and I don't know who told me this. Somebody told me this like, it was someone that had come to multiple musters, and I said, well, you know, how'd you like this one? And all the musters are a little bit different, but the first three were not that different. The first three were the same. Almost the same.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And someone said, well, it's only been a year, but my perspective is totally different now because I've been promoted one time and I got different situations going on. So it's, I'm seeing it differently.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So that's, that's another thing that happens as you get again older.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It's weird too because as a parent, you're always thinking.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] If you try and impose too much on your kids, you're just gonna, you're just gonna push them in the other direction. You know what I'm saying? So.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You know, like for instance, your dad could have been like, no, you're not joining, and you would have been so rebellious, you probably would have joined anyways and done, you know, then you would have just not gone along even more, but he had to just be like, okay, I'm not gonna see you off, but I'll be there at graduation.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You know in the SEAL teams you'll get these totally great guys at the high end of the spectrum and you'll get much worse guys at the lower end of the spectrum. The Marine Corps, it just keeps it all in a much tighter group. Like you know what you're getting. It's gonna be, it's gonna be a Marine and it's gonna be good to go.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It's a tight shot group. The single teams, you know, we get some, we get some.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Check. So, so then, what year was this now? Was this like 1998, 1999?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeaah. No, I used to see those guys, obviously we'd see them all the time going through classes. And then, so, and then you show up. Where'd you go? Where'd you go after that?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] How did you go from, at what point did you tell him you wanted to join the Navy?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] How long is, how long is Marine Corps OCS? Three months. And how did, if you, if you knew you wanted to go in the Navy, how come they sent you to Marine Corps OCS?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Oh yeaah. Yeaah. That's, that's awesome. It's a good way to get that in there. The primarines that come in the teams are always got a little extra squared away-ness inside them. In their brain. And buds, any factor of buds?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, well, I was deployed in 2003-2004, my first deployment to Iraq. Yeah.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Okay. I did not remember that. That's weird. Uhm, so you had, you were a little bit impatient of going through buds, like basically you're saying, oh man, I'm ready to get in the game. And they're like, okay, take this, sweep this grinder and do all this dumb stuff that you have to do. Yeah.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] When people ask me, because people ask me all the time, Hey, I'm 33 years old. I want to go into military. Do you think it's a good idea? I'm always like, here's the problem. The problem is you're 34 years old. There's some real benefits that in that you're mature and you are smart and you have


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That makes no sense whatsoever. You're not gonna feel like doing it. And you're gonna have to do it. And that's gonna grade on you even more. When I was 18 years old and I joined the Navy,


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[Assistant] It literally didn't matter what they made me do. I would do like, well like you just said, when you joined the Marine Corps, and when Ben said to you, hey look,


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[Assistant] You can, you just, just do what they tell you to do and, and life's gonna be good. You, like, I, I didn't, no one told me that, but when I got to bootcamp, I was like, oh, I do what they tell me to do and life's gonna be good, that's what's gonna happen. So it's like, oh, you can fold my underwear, whatever, clean the toilets, hey, let's do this. And that's a lot easier when you're 18 than it is when you're 34. A lot easier.


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[Assistant] That was the biggest fear I had, was this war's gonna happen, it's gonna be over in three months, and I won't have deployed, and I'll have to do the rest of my Navy career, never have, never going into combat, which was the biggest nightmare I could imagine. Total nightmare.


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[Assistant] Yeah, I had a Master Chief friend that was on the last plane to v- the last platoon going to Vietnam. And the pl- and the plane got shut down and they didn't go.


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[Assistant] So I can do Total Nightmare for them. But it's hard for people to understand that mentality of how bad you want to go and


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[Assistant] I'm super stoked that you feel that way. I'm here to tell you and admit to you that like, I just wanted to go to war.


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[Assistant] I just wanted to go to war. I, actually, another old Vietnam guy, he, when he left SEAL Team 1, he goes, he goes, I joined the Navy in 1970 so I could kill people from my country. And I was like, oh yeah, I know what he's talking about.


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[Assistant] It's, it's the classic line that they got right in Apocalypse Now is when Colonel Kilgore's like, he just, he's distraught. He's talking about Napalm in the morning.


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[Assistant] And someday this war is gonna end, and that's the worst thing he can think of. Cause...


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[Assistant] Hey man, he's a battalion commander of a cavalry unit in Vietnam. He's GOD. He's on top of the world. He's on top of the world. There's nothing more important in the world to him. Ever. He can't even imagine it. And he's depressed that someday the war's gonna end.


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[Assistant] People always ask about the physical part of butts. You're in good shape, no factor.


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[Assistant] You're an officer, you got fired with a gun? I haven't heard that too much. Have you heard that too much? You know, I don't know. I haven't heard that too much. I-


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[Assistant] It's not easy. And I was like, no, no, no, no, let me, let me correct myself. I'm not saying Buds is easy. Like you said, Buds is hard. It's, it's physically hard. The hardest thing to me, I think physically is that it goes on day after day after day after day after day. And so when you're doing a four mile time run, which should be pretty easy because in first phase you've got 32 minutes to do that. That's a long, that's a slow pace.


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[Assistant] Even for a grown man, that's a slow pace. Even for a big guy, that's a slow pace. But when you've done whatever, 8,000 8-count bodybuilders the day before, and then you got up at 3 in the morning and you did 8 million flutter kicks, and then you go out and get on the beach and you do a timed run in soft sand with boots on, it's not easy. And that's what, that's what trips people up, I think.


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[Assistant] I had like a midlife crisis several months ago about because some people that I knew about and that I talked to had quit.


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[Assistant] And, and like I didn't get it. And, and there's been guys from the Marine Corps that have gone through.


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[Assistant] How does this even happen? So, I'm 100% on board with the thought that no one knows who's gonna make it through. No one knows. Like you can't say, this guy's gonna make it, he's a stud, or this person's not gonna make it because they're weak. You literally don't know. Now, could I bat?


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[Assistant] 60%, maybe 70%, maybe. But there's no way you could make a sure thing. There's not one person in the world that you could say, this guy is going to make it through Buds 100%. There's no person in the world you can say that about.


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[Assistant] Yeah, like you said though, no. Zero quit. Zero quit. And it doesn't matter what you do to me, I'm gonna be right here.


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[Assistant] You get done with buds. So I came and talked to your Jotzi class, what did I talk to you guys about?


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[Assistant] And then you showed up, you went right to, you went, you, you go right to team three after that?


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[Assistant] And then what were you doing? Just tagging along with the boys? Or did they give you some strange job description, but it just meant hang out and wait to go on all this?


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[Assistant] I was in absolute heaven. Doesn't get any better, you're just freakin' stoked.


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[Assistant] And then you came back so you come home from that deployment and then you get put into Did you get a platoon the next time were you like did you get stuck being ops again in that task unit so I guess


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[Assistant] Task unit and interestingly that task unit is in the book extreme ownership in a very short passage and I was looking at it too.


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[Assistant] Think about what we said about it, but there was a task unit at SEAL Team 3 at the time and the task unit commander and one of the platoon commanders


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[Assistant] They didn't get along, they had issues with each other, and they couldn't.


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[Assistant] They couldn't get, they couldn't put it aside. They just couldn't put it aside. And even the commanding officer, again, this is in the book, the commanding officer said, hey look, I'll tell you what.


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[Assistant] I know you two have issues, because they had both come to him separately, and I'm probably screwing up the story, but it was something like this. They both came to him and said, hey look, I can't work with this guy, and the other guy says, I can't work with this guy, and he brings them together and says, look, it's Friday, by Monday, come in here and tell me how you two are gonna work together.