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[Assistant] Larry Groh, a Marine Corps helicopter door gunner who survived Operation Tailwind added, I felt really betrayed by CNN for allowing those reporters to publish all those lies and twisting the statements from those who were interviewed. CNN showed me how the news media can twist a story to fit its needs.


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[Assistant] And I've never really trusted any of the other media 100% in their reporting since then.


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[Assistant] Who is the commanding officer of the daring A-1 Skyraider pilots, remained brutally bitter about CNN's false story.


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[Assistant] Kicked ass and took numbers on the ground deep in enemy territory. The tactical air support


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[Assistant] From the Air Force fast movers, C-130 gunships, our beloved A1H spads, in combination with Marine Corps Scarface Cobra gunships, Army Cobra's, and Marine Corps dimmers, raised hell in the enemy's backyard.


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[Assistant] The final extraction when one Montagnard soldier was killed. Until 1998, I occasionally watched the communist news network, but after they ruined our reputations, I never watched it again. It was a crime against our warriors, what they did. It was a travesty of justice.


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[Assistant] Yeah, I mean, obviously right now we're living in a, you know, this is 1998 and, and the media is even more, uhm,


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[Assistant] Uh, partisan and they take stories all the time and run with these stories and, and a lot of times it's, it happens so much that it's, we forget what it does to the actual people that are victims of the stories, these false stories that come out and so,


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[Assistant] You know, you get a situation like this, these guys, and you know, I was thinking about, you know,


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[Assistant] Uh, uh, Mike Rose, who, who had to make that decision out in the jungle that he's gonna leave, you know, his, his, his indigent troops out there that were dead. He's leaving the bodies and he's tore up over that for, for his whole life since then. Oh, absolutely. And then you get a story like this comes out. It's uhm, yeaah. It's a travesty.


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[Assistant] You, you, you alluded to this earlier because of the secrecy of SOG and what you guys were doing. There's a bunch of reasons because the secrecy of SOG.


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[Assistant] Because the number of guys that were, uh, doing turnover, so you got guys coming in and leaving,


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[Assistant] And then the number of guys that are wounded, the number of guys that are killed, the number of guys that are missing. There's a lot of-


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[Assistant] Sog operators that as, as we mentioned earlier, never met the pilots that were supporting them. And so you'd get these guys that never see them.


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[Assistant] But then, and again, you alluded to this earlier, in 2016, going to the book, the first Operation Tailwind Reunion was held at the Tennessee Museum of Aviation, bringing together for the first time in more than 45 years, some of the men from all of the aviation units and some of the special forces soldiers from that unique mission.


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[Assistant] Featuring B Company Commander Gene McCarley, the Commanding Officer of the A-1 Sky Raiders,


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[Assistant] Mel Swanson and the pilots who flew Marine Corps Cobra gunships from Scarface.


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[Assistant] The CH-53 pilots and a few forward air controllers. With tears in his eyes, Swanson said, I hope this is the first of more reunions like it. To see how grateful the men of SOG were for our support during those hairy prairie fire missions touches me through and through.


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[Assistant] And I can't tell you how much this means to me on a personal level as the, as the commander who sent our A1 pilots into harm's way every day to learn how much they appreciated us in the AO. It's gratifying beyond words.


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[Assistant] Scarface pilot Barry Pensick. Am I saying that right? Yes. Pensick?


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[Assistant] That when the Marines went across the fence into Laos, quote, they made us change our call sign for some reason. They called them Mission 72 when we went across the fence. Whenever we ran a Mission 72, for some reason they had us take off our dog tags, leave our wallet at home so you couldn't be identified.


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[Assistant] As if you go down in an American made helicopter and you're a white, round, right guy, round eye in an Asian country and no one's gonna know you're American. I never understood the logic of that.


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[Assistant] To the audience and apologize to the ladies in advance for contaminating the spoken word with profanities to summarize the time he spent during that operation. I can't think of another way to say this, he said apologetically. For example, if someone is really good, he's a hot shit. If something was good, it was shit hot.


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[Assistant] If you get into a bad situation, it was a shit sandwich.


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[Assistant] Don Persky mentioned the sandwich we got into earlier. If you had your act together, you had your shit together.


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[Assistant] And I would like to say that I was honored to have a week or so to spend with all these people here and a bunch of others.


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[Assistant] And that they were a bunch of hot shit guys on a shit hot mission and then we got into a shit sandwich but we had our shit together in the end. No shit. Airborne.


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[Assistant] So, you know, one thing I want to mention, uhm, is that Mike Rose, on October 23rd, 2017, received the Medal of Honor.


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[Assistant] At the White House. At the White House for President Trump.


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[Assistant] And it shows you that, you know, even though it wasn't known about at the time, the heroism of these guys was just, well, that's the highest honor that that person can be, can receive. So.


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[Assistant] I'm going to jump ahead and look, we're, we're not covering all of SOG Chronicles. By the way, that was one mission to cover in this volume one of SOG Chronicles.


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[Assistant] But one of the things that I, when I started reading, I read a quote that said, you know, as of June 13, 2017, there were still 50 Green Berets listed as MIA in Laos alone, along with at least 105 aviators who died supporting SOG missions. They are among the total of approximately 260 avi...


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[Assistant] Because people should get the book and read through it. But on a high level, cause it ties into the, the uhm,


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[Assistant] You know, the MIAs that are still out there. Can you tell us a little bit about RT intruder and what happened on that operation? Oh sure.


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[Assistant] Well, that's one of the other reasons why I don't want to go too much deep detail right now, cause hopefully we get them on here to tell the story. Oh, he'll come back.


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[Assistant] Uh, yeaah, you know, when you think about that, you know, I just was looking through, uhm, some of this information. Americans unaccounted for in Southeast Asia, right now, uhm, total of 1,587.


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[Assistant] We still have work to do there to get these guys back home.


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[Assistant] Anything that we can do to help out on that stuff?


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[Assistant] Yeah, I know, I know they would send guys, I know guys in the SEAL teams, friends of mine that would go to Vietnam to support those operations.


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[Assistant] Well, salute to her and obviously, um, salute to all these, all these, all these that lost, all these that are missing in action. And man, these stories are unbelievable.


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[Assistant] I know you and I have some plans of trying to get as many of these things captured as we can. Uhm, I know you're traveling and you might start, you know.


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[Assistant] Might get some training from Echo Charles on how to press record on one of these things. Absolutely. And get these things, you know, everyone wants to hear as much of these stories as we can. Uhm, so hopefully we can get that going.


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[Assistant] We left some space on these last couple podcasts if, if, if Blackjack wants to come on, if, uh, if Sammy wants to come on, the, the, it's always open, the door's always open here. This is the, this is the most friendly AO that Sog has ever known right here in this podcast space.


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[Assistant] And we got one King Bee pilot. We got targeted.


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[Assistant] Yeaah, those guys, uhm, yeaah, I was reading through one of these where these guys were just, uh,


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[Assistant] Was that Captain Tuong who would go in, or was it Captain Ahn who went in by himself? By himself. Hey, it's too dangerous.


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[Assistant] Copilot, get out. Aircrew, get out. I'm going by myself.


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[Assistant] To go and rescue these guys. That are getting overrun. Getting overrun.


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[Assistant] That's just freaking awesome and heroic. So hopefully it would be an honor to have him on here and talk to him and hear about his life story. So.


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[Assistant] You know, this guy is not an old experienced pilot with thousands of flight hours. He's 23, but like you said, he might not have time, but he's got ice in his blood to sit there and hold station with a freaking helicopter while you're taking


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[Assistant] 12.7 millimeter rounds into the side of your aircraft.


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[Assistant] You know, you, you, you talk with such reverence for all the other service branches and it's the same, you know, when, when, when we were in the Battle of Ramadi.


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[Assistant] There was just no rivalry whatsoever. None. And I've never had, and I didn't really have some big rivalry going into it. I'd never really cared. I always thought we were on the same team, but some people, some people take that stuff pretty seriously. But man on the ground in the Battle of Ramadi, it was just brothers.


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[Assistant] And, and across the board and sisters as well, cause there's females they're fighting and females that were killed in action and, and.


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[Assistant] Uhm, but hey, once again, thanks for coming back. We gotta get the SOG cast going.


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[Assistant] I'm telling you Echo might be able to teach you. Thanks for coming on and more important thanks for everything you did to protect our way of life here and thanks for what you continue to do to support veterans here.


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[Assistant] Talking about the MIAs, what you've done with your veteran organizations.


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[Assistant] It's awesome, and uhm, it's just an honor to know you and it's an honor to call you a brother. Likewise, brother. Thank you.


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[Assistant] Unbelievable opportunity to sit here and talk to these guys and learn these stories. So many stories, you know, after we, after we turned off the mics, I started getting kind of crazy talking to Tilt. I was saying, hey, when you're talking about 600 hand grenades getting thrown,


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[Assistant] Grenades. Each one of those events is a micro story. Yeaah.


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[Assistant] Each one of these, hey, in, in two lines, in this book that we just read, in two lines, it's like, uhm, hey,


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[Assistant] There was enemy bunkers who were cleared by the Montagnards.


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[Assistant] That's a freaking chapter, or two chapters, or three chapters, or a whole book in itself clearing up enemy bunker, filled with the, or with NVA fighters.


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[Assistant] What's happening? What are we talking about?


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[Assistant] To be able to sit here and talk to these guys and, and, and Tilt wasn't on that particular mission, but he has, you know, he has first hand experience in the AO. He lived through it and it's just awesome, so.


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[Assistant] As we like to call it. Echo, if somebody wants to support this podcast here, and while they're supporting this podcast, they actually want to provide themselves


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[Assistant] Is it close air support? Not really, but it could be considered


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] On some level, it is, well let's just say this, it might not be close-haired support, but it is definitely support.


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[Assistant] Well, it's like this. It's like an energy drink is something that you drink that makes you feel good for 45 minutes until you crash and burn and you have a freaking insulin level spike and you feel like crap. Cause it's filled with sugar and a bunch of chemicals.


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[Assistant] Well, how does it taste good? Cause it's sweetened with something else called monk fruit, which is actually good for you. Does it have 700 milligrams of caffeine? No, it's got 95 milligrams of caffeine. Yes. Good for you.


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[Assistant] We haven't figured out what exactly we've made. It's a new category. Potentially, yea.


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[Assistant] Legit. You wanna know what one of them is? Yea? Smashing pumpkin.


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[Assistant] You can tease pumpkin spice, but trust me, you're not gonna tease smashing pumpkin. And by the way, you also said smashing pumpkins. That's plural. That's a band. That's not the name. Smashing pumpkin. We're going singular. Because, you know, we won't want to infringe.


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[Assistant] And it tastes good, but it's filled with protein that will make you strong, turn you into a destroyer. So, yea there you go, we got it going out there.


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[Assistant] It's highly recommended to deadlift. And if you're gonna deadlift, you might as well deadlift 8,000 pounds. And one of the quickest ways, dude, everyone's looking for a hack. I got a hack for you.


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[Assistant] You don't want to worry about what your periodization is going to be for your deadlifting. That's kind of a pain. What you do is you drink Jock-A-White tea and you're deadlifting 8,000 pounds. By the way, guaranteed. And if you can't, well...


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[Assistant] Alright, so you can get all this stuff at OriginMain.com. You can also get it at the Vitamin Shop. And pretty soon you're gonna be able to get the RTD drink. The Jocko Dispongo drink at


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I swear to you, just throw the word good out there, like, uh, good. When actually it's the premier jujitsu stuff in the world.


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[Assistant] Jeans, boots, t-shirts, hoodies. What else? I think we're covered it. Anyways, a bunch of good stuff, and it's all made in America. Shorts, that's right. Shorts.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And you might be thinking like, well, you know, that sounds good. You know, I could use some stuff for that stuff or the other thing. But, you know, I-


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You know, I like to do things that are beneficial to the world. You know, I don't want to just consume, right? Well guess what? Go to OriginMain, you get some of that gear, you are contributing to the world. You are bringing manufacturing back to America. We've got a bunch of


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Hard working American people up there making it happen.


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[Assistant] Yeah, yeah, so there's a good bona fides when you're just out in the wild. And maybe you wanna, you know, if you run into someone else that's kind of on the path, maybe a trooper, but you don't wanna walk around, hey!


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Hey, how's it going? Hey, are you in the game? No. Just put the flag on, man. Yep. Put the flag on. Put the Defcor flag on.


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[Assistant] And someone, and you know what you get, you're not gonna get bothered, but somebody will give you a look, you little head nod. Yep. Like, what's up? Yep. Maybe a little, maybe a little.


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[Assistant] Well, I mean, no, we're definitely wrapping up summer. But, you know.


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[Assistant] I know some of us operate more on a Hawaiian type schedule, so summer might be kind of past, but some people may still be wanting some board shorts if they're actually in Hawaii.


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[Assistant] From Irish Oaks Ranch. You can get it on our, on JockoStore.com. But it's a kid, a warrior kid, with a company.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Subscribe to this podcast. Check out some of the other podcasts that we have. Jocko Unraveling, which used to be called The Thread, but we changed the name. So Jocko Unraveling, soon to be on its own. Feed.


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[Assistant] We have grounded which we really haven't recorded in a long time We need to get that done and warrior kid also not recorded in a long time But you can listen to those podcasts. You can subscribe to those podcasts and this one. We also have a YouTube channel


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yep, flipsidecampus.com, my brother Dakota Meyer's company, and yeah, guess what?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Guess what, if you want a little visual representation to kind of keep you on track, check out flipsidecanvas.com.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And get something to hang on your wall. Graphic representation of the path.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Also got some books. Obviously these books here by John Streikermeyer. Across the Fence, On the Ground, Sog Chronicles, also don't forget about Whiskey Tango, Foxtrot. By Black Jack Lynn Black.


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[Assistant] We got the code, the evaluation, the protocols, we got leadership strategy and tactics, field manual, we got way of warrior kid one, two and three, we got Mikey and the dragons, we got discipline equals freedom, field manual. And by the way, there's a new version of that coming out.


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[Assistant] Extreme ownership and the dichotomy of leadership also have a consulting company called Echelon Front, where we teach leadership principles.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And we solve problems through leadership. We also have EF Online. EF Online, if you have a question that you want to ask me,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The gram. You could try and ask me questions. Look, sometimes I get to them. Or you can...


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[Assistant] Come on to efonline.com and come to a live webinar where I am sitting there in front of my computer answering questions.


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[Assistant] Go to EFonline.com. Come and hang out. Basically, come and hang out.


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[Assistant] We have something called the muster where you come and physically hang out and learn about leadership.


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[Assistant] We've had to cancel a few of them because of the COVID virus, but we are, we have one coming in Dallas, Texas, December 3rd and 4th. Go to extremeownership.com if you want to come to that. We have EF Overwatch where we take people from the military that have the understanding of the principles that we talk about.


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[Assistant] And we place those people into the civilian sector, into companies in the leadership position. Go to efoverwatch.com if you're a company that needs leaders. We have americasmightywarriors.org. Mama Lee. Mark Lee's mom. Her mission.


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[Assistant] has been to help service members around the world in all kinds of different aspects. If you want to get on board and you want to help out go to americasmightywarriors.org and you can donate or you can get involved


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[Assistant] And if you want to hear more from us, you can contact us. If you have questions, if you have answers, if you can fill in the blanks of some of the blanks that we get to, you can find us on the interwebs. For Tilt, for John Stryker-Meyer, he's on Twitter, at SogJohn. Instagram is at JStrykerMeyer.


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[Assistant] And Facebook is at John Stryker-Meyer on the interwebs. He's got SogChronicles.com


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[Assistant] And if you're looking for either one of us to knuckleheads, Echo is at Echo Charles and I am at Jocko Willink.


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[Assistant] And thanks to Tilt, of course, for coming back on to share the stories of Sog, the Sog Chronicles.


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[Assistant] And more important, thanks to Tilt and all his brothers in arms for their service and their sacrifice, especially those who are still missing in action. We will not forget.


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[Assistant] And we thank you and all of our military for keeping us free.


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[Assistant] And to the police and law enforcement and firefighters and paramedics and EMTs and dispatchers and correctional officers and border patrol, secret service, all other first responders out there holding the line, thank you for your service and sacrifice to keep us safe here at home. And to everyone else out there,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Don't go around thinking that you're hot shit and that your shit doesn't stink because you're bullshitting yourself.


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[Assistant] Then things will likely shit the bed and then they'll go to shit and you'll end up in a shit sandwich and likely shit a brick when you realize that you're up shits creek without a paddle. And that right there is some deep shit.


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[Assistant] So until next time, this is Echo and Jaco.


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[Assistant] So to know that we're on the path, that's a big one. Before though, before I go into that.


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[Assistant] Hearing like his story, actually a lot of these stories or whatever, but this was for some reason, maybe because it was like so long and it made me like contemplate the whole time. Where it's like a reminder for us who didn't go to war, you know, who's not in the military necessarily. And we just kind of, you know, we're cruising here and you know, that thought that's like, dang, all that was going on.


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[Assistant] Like that's what I, you know, cause you say the dates and you're like, Oh, I remember what I was doing in 2003. I remember that what I was doing. And you kind of flash to man.


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[Assistant] Yes, so make the most of it, you know, kind of, kind of that old thing, make the most of it. Uhm, every once in a while, you know, like you'll get injured, like something that'll take you out, like for, you know, like a month, like a month or more recovery time or whatever, so that for that month you can't really do certain things, if not like a lot of things.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And then when you finally heal up and are able to do it, you have that like appreciation for just everyday stuff. It's like that's kinda like thinking about these things I found, like kinda just rejuvenates that appreciation.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So, yes, staying on the path for ourselves and the people around us, because that's who it affects fully. Uhm, you know, we want to keep ourselves in shape. Uhm, and...


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[Assistant] I, when I said Jocko Fuel one time, I remember saying it and thinking, oh Jocko Fuel seems like an individual product the way I said it. So let me clarify. Jocko Fuel is a collection of supplementation elements.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] This part we already know, supercruel oil, it's your cruel oil with some antioxidants in there. Joint warfare for your joints. So your joints are going to take a beating, you know, varying levels of beatings when you, when you're working out, you're doing different workouts, jujitsu, all that stuff. So this is why this is important. Supercruel, supercruel oil, uh, joint warfare and


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Also, we have vitamin D for immune system. Big, big deal.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Also Cold War for your immune system. Still, a big deal. So yes, these are all part of Jocko Fuel, including, or should I say additionally, MOLK. Protein in the form of a dessert, meaning...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It's the best tasting protein mix you'll ever have. I think that's proven double blind placebo.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Do you add extra peanut butter? No, I don't. I just, as is. I do sometimes.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I'm feeling a little bit more peanut buttery. Nonetheless, I dig it. 100%. And that's what that is. Also, discipline. The supplement. Discipline. Powder. Mix. This is, uh, this is for your brain and your body, by the way. Powder. Mix. Uh, cans. RTD cans.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But that one has the sweetness as well. The Dak Savage one.


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[Assistant] I can dig it. It's been a few weeks and I've been pounding the Tropic Thunder and the Choco Palmer one so much, I'm gonna have to go revisit it to evaluate accurately. That's what I think. Nonetheless, they're all good and hey, we're gonna have differences of opinion. I like, I prefer


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Not, maybe not strongly, but I prefer a little bit of the tanginess in this kind of drink.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I prefer that. My personal preference is over.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, I feel like you're, you know, not to say you're actively neglecting this, but bro, they look good. You see what I'm saying? They fit good, they look good. I know you're not walking around saying, ooh, how does this fit on my jean? You're not asking your wife, hey, do these jeans make, you know, my hips look


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Or what have you, you know, I'm assuming you're not doing that. So, so I will attest to that, that yes, these are functional, of course, made in America, of course, but they look good too. They look good, feel good, feel good, look good, all that.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Anyway, originmain.com, yes. Also, speaking of clothing, Jocko has a store. So this clothing, if you want to represent discipline equals freedom, the attitude of good. For when things go bad, there's some good that comes out of it. It's true.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You're the one who told me that. It's true. Anyway, you want to represent these things, go to jocostore.com, check out the shirts, there's t-shirts on there, hoodies, hats, uh, we got some new board shorts. Are they up yet? You're gonna have to check jocostore.com.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Carry on. I'll take it. Anyway, JockoStore.com, if you like something, get something.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So yes, you wanna watch the video version or have the video version playing, playing in the office, in the gym.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] In the house, whatever. Connected to surround sound. Boom, you're right in the middle of the conversation, physically, visually, all that stuff. Anyway, we have a YouTube channel, that's the point. Uh, we also have excerpts on there. So, you know, you can share them.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] With your friends, and it's more likely your friend is gonna watch a two minute up to, you know, varying levels of length.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] See what I'm saying? Fair enough. I'm just saying if you, if you, if you, and this is why you should share an excerpt. If it, if it resonates, resonates with you or someone you know, that, or it might resonate with someone you know, this is why you share it. Because if you, okay, there's an excerpt about, uhm, I forget the title, but it's about how you feel versus how you behave. Right? I think it was something about hangry or something like that. Remember that one? It's oldie but goodie. Oh yeaah. Nonetheless.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So, it's basically if you're frustrated on the inside or whatever, you don't have to act frustrated.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You know, how you feel and how you behave should, you should separate those things. You should behave as good as you can. Anyway, so a lot of people, that's good, valuable information. What if you shared that with three people around you? And they shared that with two people around them. They shared that with four people around them. And see, everyone around you is behaving correctly, whether they're frustrated or not frustrated.


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[Assistant] At the end of the day, yes. So that's the benefit and this goes for any concept. So there's a lot of excerpts out there is what I'm saying. So I'm saying check them out on that YouTube channel. You know, if you got, if you got a moment, do it. It's good. Also, Psychologic Warfare. This is an album with Jocko tracks on it.


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[Assistant] In career moment of weakness, you wanna invoke Jocko to help you. Not yell at you or nothing like this, help you, just listen to one of those tracks, the appropriate track for that particular weakness moment. Boom, he'll help you right across the bridge. Super easy too, 100% effective rate, by the way.


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[Assistant] Yeah, it did kinda seem like you were not actively avoiding the word art.


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[Assistant] This is Jocko Podcast number 269 with Echo Charles and me, Jocko Willink.


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[Assistant] Good evening Echo. Good evening. And also joining us tonight is Dave Burke. Good evening Dave. Good evening. The last podcast


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[Assistant] With Leif, we covered the first part of this Marine Corps manual, which I don't even know if it's yet. It's not really a manual. It's like, somebody made this.


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[Assistant] It's called, The Squad Leader Makes a Difference, and I know who made it actually. Lieutenant M.M. Abalde and Lieutenant A.M. Atero. They made it at the war, the Marine Corps War Fighting Lab in August of 1998. And we're gonna push through


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[Assistant] The last few pages of this book that we didn't cover last time, but then we're going to dive deeper into the last example, which I actually moved to the end.


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[Assistant] And if you've ever wondered where these podcasts come from, where my mind is going, or if you've ever wondered how I'm thinking through these things, this is an opportunity to follow me down a path of discovery.


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[Assistant] And it all starts by picking up where we left off with this, this manual, The Squad Leader Makes a Difference. The subtitle is Readings on Combat at the Squad Level. This book is a book that by its very nature,


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[Assistant] It enforces that, it establishes it, it, it is decentralized command. It's literally a book about the frontline leaders making a difference and stepping up and leading. So, here we go. We're gonna go back to the book, right now.


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[Assistant] Sergeant Joe Hooper was a squad leader with D Company, 2nd Battalion.


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[Assistant] In January of 1968, Hue was captured by the North Vietnamese in the Tet Offensive. U.S. forces fought desperately to liberate Vietnam's ancient imperial city. On February 17th, the company was assaulting a defended position along a riverbank outside Hue city when it was attacked by rocket and machine gun fire.


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[Assistant] He overran several enemy bunkers. This bold maneuver inspired the rest of the company to join the attack. During this attack, some of Sergeant Hooper's squad had been wounded.


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[Assistant] When his squad came under direct fire from a building to their front, Sergeant Hooper assaulted the building himself and killed the enemy with grenades and rifle fire.


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[Assistant] Upon reaching the final line of the North Vietnamese defenses, Sergeant Hooper destroyed four bunkers by running the length of the position, tossing grenades into each of the dugouts. The enemy soldiers began to withdraw from their positions.


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[Assistant] Sergeant Hooper then led his squad in destroying the last two Vietnamese bunkers with white phosphorus grenades.


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[Assistant] After the last pocket of resistance was eliminated, Sergeant Hooper organized his unit into defensive positions.


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[Assistant] When the remainder of his company had caught up, Sergeant Hooper allowed himself to have his wounds treated. Sergeant Hooper played a major role in defeating a large force of North Vietnamese. D Company's attack forced the withdrawal of North Vietnamese reinforcements attempting to enter the city.


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[Assistant] Easing pressure on the besieged city and leading to the eventual liberation of the imperial capital.


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[Assistant] And oddly enough it doesn't talk about him receiving the medal of honor or anything after he's charging bunkers by himself that's just...


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[Assistant] After taking initiative to assault across the river, Sergeant Hooper's squad assumed the role.


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[Assistant] of the company's main effort and spearheaded the attack. His exceptional courage under fire inspired the remainder of the company.


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[Assistant] Sergeant Hooper's combat decisions and tactical leadership at the squad level contributed to his company's success in this bitter fight.


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[Assistant] With the North Vietnamese attempt to reinforce the city halted, other forces were able to clear the city.


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[Assistant] This is uhm, obviously, this is the kind of initiative, this is the kind of bias for action that the Marine Corps talks about all the time.


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[Assistant] This is the kind of initiative that we try and train leaders to have at every level. That they are going to make things happen. That's what we want. And they've followed up this quote.


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[Assistant] I've actually, we actually hit this quote before, but I'm gonna hit it again. We covered it a while ago on podcast 62. Ardent Depeque. His book Battle Studies.


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[Assistant] Who do not know each other, will not dare to attack a lion.


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[Assistant] When I was in South Africa, Leif and I went down to South Africa and we worked with some companies down there and I heard that.


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[Assistant] They, they wasn't in this context, but they were talking about how, back in the day, the African tribes would hunt lions.


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[Assistant] With spears, but they would say, you know, be like three or four guys that would be able to take a line because they could maneuver in from different angles and they could eventually kill the lion.


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[Assistant] And this was after the conversation that, I don't know if you know this, in South, in Africa.


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[Assistant] There's no lions living out in the wild. They're all in these, they're in these big giant game reserves which are like the wild, but they're not in the wild.


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[Assistant] Why is that? Because then you have freaking lions roaming around killing people. I mean, you're no match for a lion. No, no match. But if you've got some friends...


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[Assistant] Three friends. I mean, if you think about the, okay, what are the odds if you were to do this? The odds of a human beating a lion in a fight.


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[Assistant] What are the odds? You know, like, it is not, it's almost zero.


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[Assistant] How is it, how is a human gonna kill a lion in a fight? Right? Okay. Okay, you give him a spear. He has some kind of a chance.


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[Assistant] But it ain't good when a freaking lion's coming at you. That thing's gonna just, it's a slaughter.


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[Assistant] But as soon as you got some friends, and you can make some maneuvers, now you can, not only can you win, you are confident enough that you do it on a regular basis.


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[Assistant] That's decentralized command. That's not only decentralized command. That's what a good team is. A good team, was he calling?


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[Assistant] But if you're talking to a business, which is what we do, it's, hey,


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[Assistant] You gotta make sure you're building good relationships. You gotta make sure that they know they're gonna give you that support, that mutual aid if you need it. That's what we're doing. And if we have that, we're unstoppable. If we have that, three of us can take a lion.


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[Assistant] Corporal Gregory was a squad leader. This is Vietnam, 1971. U.S. Marine Corps.


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[Assistant] Corporal Gregory was a squad leader assigned to the 1st Combined Unit Pacification Platoon, 3rd Battalion, 1st Marines.


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[Assistant] The unit was the northernmost marine unit in Vietnam.


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[Assistant] Where? Wait, back in the rear? Where they had plenty of time to train? No, in the field. He plays strong emphasis on training in the field. He took every chance to conduct opportunity training with his marines.


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[Assistant] There were numerous duties required of Corporal Gregory's squad. Each day, Corporal Gregory assembled the squad and instructed them in a single, practical infantry skill.


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[Assistant] While in a patrol base, Corporal Gregory instructed his men in such skills as helicopter medevacs, close air support, and call for fire.


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[Assistant] Corporal Gregory required that his squad members continue their professional development. Every day after returning from patrols, Corporal Gregory's squad would work on their Marine Corps Institute correspondence courses.


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[Assistant] PFC Kirby, a member of Corporal Gregory Squad, finished the Marine Corps NCO MCI in the field in Vietnam.


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[Assistant] Corporal Gregory took the initiative to train his marines in the skills required by his unit's mission and environment.


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[Assistant] His training exceeded the basic requirements established by the Marine Corps and created a squad that was particularly well prepared for combat. The Corporal used scenario based training.


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[Assistant] To run his men through multiple repetitions of probable combat situations.


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[Assistant] And by the way, everything that I'm saying right now, apply it to what you're doing in your company, in your business.


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[Assistant] Not because you've got two weeks allocated to train your personnel, but because you've got 20 minutes to review with them how this product works, or how this piece of equipment functions, or what to do in an emergency situation, or how to handle a client.


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[Assistant] It was not long before Corporal Gregory's training proved vital.


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[Assistant] On the night of February 14th, 1971, Corporal Gregory and his unit came under heavy, heavy attack.


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[Assistant] Yet, because the squad was so well trained and understood what it had, what had to be done, the squad was able to meet the challenge and skillfully engage the enemy. Corporal Gregory's exemplary leadership in the weeks prior to the attack had prepared his marines for this firefight.


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[Assistant] The enemy was repulsed and the squad held its position.


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[Assistant] In the morning over 30 dead N.V.A. were found in the area surrounding the squad's position. Every Marine in the squad realized that it was Corporal Gregory's training emphasis that had won the battle and saved their lives.


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[Assistant] Lessons. Corporal Gregory displayed outstanding initiative in training his Marines.


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[Assistant] And directly contributed to the combat success and survival of the unit after Corporal Gregory's death.


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[Assistant] Corporal Gregory, you, and by the way, if they ended up with 30 dead, NVA,


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[Assistant] Over 30 dead NVA, that was a big force that attacked his unit.


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[Assistant] Corporal Gregory used whatever time was available to instruct his marines and hone their professional skills. This aggressive opportunity training was necessary because few units could conduct formal training in the combat zone. I talked about this on EF Online the other day.


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[Assistant] I absolutely learned more from informal training than I did from formal training during my time in the Navy.


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[Assistant] I think the example to use would be, let's say you went to some kind of a technical school like,


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[Assistant] Being a doctor, being a mechanic, being a air conditioning repairman.


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[Assistant] It's doing the job. It's when someone pulls you aside and says, oh yeaah, when you see this, here's the problem.


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[Assistant] When you, when you, when you go here, here's what you need to do. When you see this...


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[Assistant] Symptom from a patient, here's what's actually happening. It's all that informal training that, and maybe I'm wrong about the doctors because I don't know what medical school is like, but I can only imagine that you get a heck of a lot better


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[Assistant] And there's also a difference between just learning from experience, which is, hey, I did this operation, here's some mistakes that I made.


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[Assistant] That's just experience. Classroom is classroom. I'm talking about in between where you're, you know, someone's pulling you aside and say, hey Jaco, when you start to see this develop, that's not a good call. Here's a call that would be better to make and here's why. It's not formal training. It's my platoon chief telling me something.


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[Assistant] It's my LPO, my leading petty officer saying, hey, hey new guy.


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[Assistant] Echo. If you, if you don't squeeze your knees together, it's real easy to get out here. Give me your arm. Boom. Oh yeaah. You feel that? Try and pull your arm out. Oh I can't. Okay yeaah. That's cause it's all because I'm squeezing my knees. Okay. Look, the instructor, guarantee the instructor said squeeze your knees.


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[Assistant] But you need that informal assessment of your actual situation to realize, oh, I see what I need to do.


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[Assistant] What, uh, was the, the, I mean you have to get informal training once you're in the, once you're done with the rag.


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[Assistant] If you have some experience, and you have people that are on your team,


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[Assistant] The amount of knowledge that you can transfer to them is so valuable and, and the reason I'm pointing this out is because a lot of times you forget that. Right? You think, you've been doing this for a long time, you think it's a big deal, hey this is just what you do, you don't, you forget, you forget that you've learned all this.


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[Assistant] Yeah, your family. Yeah, we talk about this in the code, the protocol. The evaluation, it's like, hey, what can you do to your family?


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[Assistant] More lessons here. Corporal Gregory realized that combat is a dynamic environment which takes a heavy toll on leaders within an infantry company. He trained his subordinates to be able to assume his role. This saved the lives of his men during the chaos of battle.


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[Assistant] After his death, the men of Corporal Gregory's squad performed well because they had confidence in their training and in themselves, a confidence that was instilled by Corporal Gregory's leadership. You know, when we talk about confidence, how do you get confidence? You get confidence through work.


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[Assistant] Well, here's what's really cool. So they have a if...


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[Assistant] We, he mentions, he mentions, uh, uh, Kirby in this. PFC Kirby.


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[Assistant] Our squad survived as result of the corporals training. We are alive today because of him.


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[Assistant] Falklands, 1982. In 1982, Argentina invaded the Falklands, Falkland Islands in the South Pacific, South Atlantic Ocean.


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[Assistant] The islands had been British territory since British days as an imperial power, not willing to give up its territory. Britain sent a task force to the islands in order to reclaim them. After an amphibious assault, British forces pushed their way across the islands.


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[Assistant] The second battalion of the Parachute Regiment, known as 2 Para, of the British Army was ordered to attack the Argentinian forces of Goose Green.


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[Assistant] It was to be the first pitched battle between British and Argentinian forces. The land bridge between Goose Green and the town of Darwin was the only way for forces to move between East Falkland Island and Lafonia Island.


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[Assistant] If Tupara could not break through to Goose Green, the British would have to spend valuable time mounting another amphibious assault of the Falkland Islands.


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[Assistant] Corporal Abals was a section leader equivalent to a squad leader in A Company 2 Para. A Company's mission was to attack along the battalion's eastern flank and assault the town of Darwin. On the night of 27,


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[Assistant] May 1982, Tupara attacked Goose Green. The Argentinians were well prepared for the attack and the paratroopers could advance only yards at a time.


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[Assistant] As the sun rose, the battalion was left in a precarious position. Tupara was stalled, pinned down, in the open, by Argentinian mortar and machine gun fire.


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[Assistant] A company was trapped in a crossfire between the Argentinians on Goose Green and those in Darwin. This is a nightmare scenario. You're in a crossfire, receiving both mortar and machine gun fire, realizing that the trap could only be broken by persistent aggressive action,


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[Assistant] Corporal Abals decided to continue to lead his squad in assaulting enemy positions, seeking to break the deadlock himself. The commanding officer of Tupara charged a machine gun nest and was shot dead.


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[Assistant] The Argentinians had been demoralized by the utter destruction of this single bunker and the ruthlessness of Corporal Abal's resolve.


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[Assistant] This allowed a company to turn its full attention toward Goose Green.


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[Assistant] Momentum gathered behind the British attack. In the next 24 hours, Tupara opened the route to Lafonia Island.


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[Assistant] Corporal LaBalle's persistent aggressiveness had broken the will of the defenders. This action proved to be pivotal in A Company's attack. Tupara's victory at Goose Green assured a British victory for the Falkland campaign.


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[Assistant] Lessons. Corporal, a ball, squad level action effectively turn the tide of the battle at Goose Green.


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[Assistant] This is an example of how an aggressive tactical action can have effects


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[Assistant] Out of all proportion to the size of the action.


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[Assistant] His command decisions fully supported both his company and battalion commander's intent.


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[Assistant] His spectacular assault of that particular bunker affected the morale of both sides.


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[Assistant] Crush the spirit of the Argentinians and pass the initiative and momentum to British forces and prove to be the action needed to continue the British advance.


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[Assistant] After this action, Argentinian soldiers began to surrender rather than die in combat. One person. A corporal.


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[Assistant] Corporal Ball's courage, leadership and determination propelled him to persevere and achieve decisive results in extricating his unit from a desperate situation.


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[Assistant] When all else fails, perseverance prevails. And if you want more on the Falkland Islands, Podcast 88, Excursion to Hell.


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[Assistant] Pay attention to that name. Operation Crazy Horse. We're gonna go deep. In the Vin Thanh Valley


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[Assistant] In June of 1966, a company of Montagnard troops led by special forces advisors landed at LZ Monkey for a search and destroy mission. Sergeant Freeman, a member of the command element, was the fourth senior man in the unit. Soon after landing, the company attacked and secured a bunker complex.


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[Assistant] At the LZ, the company began receiving heavy small arms fire. The command element around Sergeant Friedman was devastated.


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[Assistant] The situation demanded rapid action. Sergeant Freeman grabbed a radio and took command of the company. He called in helicopter gunships, coordinated supporting arms, and reorganized his defenses.


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[Assistant] The helicopter pilots flying above the battle were amazed at his coolness under fire under Sergeant Freeman's competent command. The perimeter held all night and the enemy eventually withdrew.


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[Assistant] Lessons. Sergeant Freeman, a well trained NCO, was prepared to lead his company in combat.


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[Assistant] The technical and tactical skills of combat leadership, meaning how to call for air support, how to call for supporting arms, how to call for artillery, how to call for medevac. These are technical skills that you have to have and they reinforce that throughout this book.


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[Assistant] So if you're in a leadership position and you think, well, you know, I'm not gonna have to do that. No, actually, you better, you better, you better go and dig in and figure out how to do these things.


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[Assistant] In addition to his technical knowledge, he was able to match these abilities with strong leadership and cool competence in the face of disaster.


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[Assistant] Because of his experience and situational awareness, Sergeant Freeman knew that rapid action was required. Once again, what do we see? We see someone that's taking action.


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[Assistant] He immediately took control of the situation making decisions and issuing orders


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[Assistant] And extricated his company from a perilous situation. And here's a little Klauswitz on war. Which we haven't covered yet. It's sort of one of those ones, uh, is it like, uh,


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[Assistant] Not playing the obvious one, you know? I haven't done that one yet.


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[Assistant] The end for which a soldier is recruited, armed and trained, the whole object of his sleeping, eating, drinking and marching is simply that he should fight at the right place and at the right time.


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[Assistant] Here we go. So this section that I'm about to read actually came earlier in the manual and I pulled it out and I put it at the end. This is the last one of these examples. And, and there's a reason why and it immediately struck me when I saw it. So the title of this section is just


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[Assistant] Sergeant First Class, U.S. Army, Vietnam, 1966. So as soon as I read that, I was kind of surprised because all the other ones, they give the person's name. So I'm thinking why, why, why aren't they saying this guy's name?


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[Assistant] Is this a top secret mission? Well, no, this is 1998. There was no, no more secret missions. So why aren't we explaining this? And it becomes obvious when I read it why they


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[Assistant] Just call this individual Sergeant First Class. So here we go. In May of 1966,


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[Assistant] C Company of 1st Battalion, 12th Cavalry, 1st Cavalry Division established a mortar firebase at LZ Hereford in the Ving Thanh Valley.


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[Assistant] This is part of that earlier operation that we mentioned. The position was 150 meters long.


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[Assistant] And 40 meters wide. The upper slope was covered in 6 foot high elephant grass.


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[Assistant] The mortar section was led by a sergeant first class, no name given.


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[Assistant] His position lay on a hill which had previously been occupied by Viet Cong guerillas. He formed his men in a weak perimeter.


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[Assistant] We're not off to a good start. Arranged in a U shape.


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[Assistant] The main body of the company went off to patrol the valley below, leaving the 22 man mortar section to defend their own position.


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[Assistant] The men fired off a few rounds to seat their base plates. The sergeant decided to give the men a break.


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[Assistant] It did not order anyone to dig in or examine the area around the perimeter. No security patrols were sent out. The men lounged.


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[Assistant] Eight sea rations and walked around in the open. In the jungle heat, it seemed like a day at the beach.


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[Assistant] At 1330, an enemy machine gun opened up at a range of 50 meters from the elephant grass uphill of the mortar position.


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[Assistant] A 200 man unit of VC had been waiting to ambush the lax mortar unit. Machine gun fire was followed by rifle fire and grenade attacks. The rest of the company


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[Assistant] Which had gone down the hill on patrol. The rest of the company took 35 minutes to rush back to the devastated mortar position. The enemy had withdrawn and left only a handful of dazed survivors.


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[Assistant] The failure of the sergeant to properly lead his unit.


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[Assistant] Enforce basic security measures or prepare for enemy contact led directly to disaster.


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[Assistant] With its support element eliminated, the company was not able to establish its patrol mission.


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[Assistant] Which in turn negatively affected the battalion's mission in the Vinh Thanh Valley.


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[Assistant] I read that and of course I think about, okay, what does this mean? And they


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[Assistant] So I start to do some research and it turns out that this battle, this specific battle was written about in a book.


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[Assistant] On Vietnam, called Battles in the Monsoon.


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[Assistant] But I was really curious, what happened? What happened?


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[Assistant] So I found this out of print book, ordered it, and the book,


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[Assistant] Battles in the Monsoon is a book full of basically a bunch of short little


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[Assistant] And this particular story, this particular section in this book about this battle is called Men Facing Death.


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[Assistant] So let's hear a little bit more detail about this situation.


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[Assistant] Skipping to this specific, to give a little bit of background, this LZ Hereford had been used a bunch. It looked like one of the safest places in the fire zone. Such had been the consistency of armed traffic in and out of it. So this was a LZ that was getting used all the time.


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[Assistant] That was about how Colonel John J. Hennessey thought of it when he decided on a special mission for Charlie Company.


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[Assistant] First to the 12th for the following morning. It was a courteous gesture.


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[Assistant] The main object being to return Charlie Company to its parent battalion. But before doing so, Hennessey planned to ask a small favor in return. The company under Captain Don F. Warren, a taciturn Georgian who had been with his same unit since winning his gold bars in 1961. So this guy's been in the same unit since, for five straight years.


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[Assistant] He was on the perimeter in Hill, on Hill 766, several ridges beyond Hereford.


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[Assistant] The airline distance was about 3,000 meters. Hennessy directed Warren to sweep back over the high ground to Hereford after Sunup.


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[Assistant] Unworried about that passage, he was most concerned that Charlie Company should reconnoiter the lower slopes beyond the landing zone. Which thus far, no one had prowled.


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[Assistant] They were not left wholly undisturbed, but the occasional sniper rounds and grenades that innocuously bit into their ground were attributed to enemy stragglers. So, there's a company there, they're getting hit occasionally, but there's just a bunch of stragglers is what they're assuming. Alpha Company needed to be back, so they send in Charlie Company. Word of that was afoot.


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[Assistant] And that reached Major Charles Seiler at the Anke, at Anke. Shortly after Hennessey gave his order, the division's public information officer was entertaining a visitor and a weighing problem all his own.


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[Assistant] Belatedly drawn by the news that Operation Crazy Horse was racking up a score, war correspondent Sam Castan.


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[Assistant] A 32 year old senior editor of Look magazine had just arrived in camp, pursuing a theme worthy of Hemingway. Kastin was the only correspondent drawn to the battle. He said to Seiler,


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[Assistant] I wish to know the thoughts of men facing death. So that's what this war correspondent says. Sam Caston.


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[Assistant] Sylar voiced an honest doubt that the quest was logical, men's fears and reflections not being all of one kind, and the soldier hardly knowing how he thinks about death until he feels he is dying.


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[Assistant] It is just not the subject that makes for easy talk among combat men. That's kinda weird, right? We got this, this reporter saying, hey, I wanna go get some men facing death.


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[Assistant] At the time, General Norton had put the Anke position on semi-alert and the whole camp was a stir. Seiler and his staff were in the bunkers around the press camp realigning some of the sandbags. You don't have to worry about this ground tonight.


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[Assistant] Attitude where I'm gonna go look for problems and I'm not gonna find them.


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[Assistant] Seiler remembered the words, thinking them slightly ironic in view of what Casten was looking for. This guy wants to go find people facing death, but then he says, don't worry about there being any problems, because I'm so lucky that nothing's gonna happen.


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[Assistant] There's a big hill not far from here where a lot of men have died in the last few days, he said. Then I want to get up there first thing in the morning, said Kastin.


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[Assistant] And by the way, I intend to follow the subject all the way through. See the coffins in which you place the bodies. We put them in rubber bags.


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[Assistant] Said Sylar Grumley, hoping to close the conversation. But Casten continued to fret about getting up to Hereford soon after dawn. Sylar broke off work to arrange for Casten's certain departure.


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[Assistant] These were the circumstances which resulted in Kasten being delivered to Hereford by the same helicopter that carried ammunition, coffee, and a hot breakfast to Cummings and Alpha Company. His first hours were unrewarding that the unit was too busy stacking supply equipment for an early getaway to talk with Kasten about death. Besides, the morning was disarmingly fair and quiet. Warren and Charlie Company


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[Assistant] Charlie Company meanwhile, were beating their way along the ridge.


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[Assistant] On the way back from Hill 766, having broken camp at 10 hundred, a fairly wide trail runs from the top of the scarp for the entire distance. So.


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[Assistant] Alpha Company was lifted from LZ Hereford when Charlie Company arrived at High Noon. Gaston State.


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[Assistant] On the landing zone, Warren talked briefly to Lieutenant Colonel Ruff Ru- Rutland P. Beard Jr., the battalion commander and his S3 major role.


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[Assistant] I just want to call out these words. It was arranged.


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[Assistant] Because we're gonna get some more information. So you've got the, you've got the battalion commander talking to the company commander.


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[Assistant] That Warren and the main body of the company would continue through the stroll, through the down slope, through the treason, across the river. The mortar platoon would remain on Hereford.


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[Assistant] To cover its further advance with the, with fire from the 81 millimeter tube. So now you can see where we're going. The sergeant first class of the mortar platoon that we talked about from the squad leader makes a difference. This is the guy. This is the guy.


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[Assistant] Now we're, now we're calling this guy one of the stoutest, stoutest-hearted fighters in the brigade, but in this-


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[Assistant] In the reflections from the manual, he's, you know, not gonna do a good job.


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[Assistant] And by the way, there's gonna get left with 22 people in a mortar platoon, which is, again, we'll dive more into that. Few in numbers, his men seeming, seemed sufficiently armed. Each carried 300 more rounds for their M16s, and from two or four, from two to four hand grenades,


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[Assistant] The one heavy weapon was the 81mm mortar for which Kirby had only 18 rounds. That with the tube was as much weight as the men could carry. So, sufficiently armed is an interesting way of saying it.


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[Assistant] Because we know that an M16 with 300 rounds, an M16 is fine. A mortar is fine.


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[Assistant] But if you get into a legitimate gunfight, there's something that you need called a machine gun. And you need a few of them. And they don't have any.


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[Assistant] Moreover, it had been agreed that as promptly as the descending company passed beyond the range of the platoon, that the platoon would be lifted out by chopper.


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[Assistant] Alpha company had a hundred or so mortar rounds behind. Kirby reckoned he would not need them. Kastin, the reporter, had decided to stay on Hereford instead of moving with the company column.


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[Assistant] It's an interesting decision. It's an interesting decision because you would think if you're looking for to get in the fight.


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[Assistant] You would, oh, they're gonna go, like I'm sitting on this kind of LZ, we're kind of, it's almost like a little bit secure, and these guys are gonna go on patrol. I would probably think I'd go on patrol. Castin, for whatever reason.


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[Assistant] No, sorry, that's Kasten that says to Kirby, it will happen here, if anywhere. Like, we're gonna get in combat. And Kirby says about that, you're dead wrong.


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[Assistant] And he honestly felt that way though as he looked about what he saw of his position hardly warranted such assurance. It was all wrong from any reason to tactical view. So now this is Kirby.


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[Assistant] He, he's looking at the situation, even though he says yeaah, it's not gonna happen here, he knows it's all wrong from a tactical perspective.


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[Assistant] The landing zone at Hereford was by then a burned off, trampled and rumpled, rubble strewn


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[Assistant] And were subsequently enlarged by American occupancy. The trouble was that Kirby did not have enough men to round out his holding.


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[Assistant] So the position became a U pointed. A U pointed up, upslope.


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[Assistant] And again, this is, there's, you can see the similarity here from, from the manual.


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[Assistant] And that's where he decided to put light, uh, and not any, any protection in that direction.


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[Assistant] In neither direction was the prospect of a fight, was the prospect good if a fight was to be forthcoming?


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[Assistant] There was beauty everywhere, but there was beauty everywhere to sue the eye. Upslope and bordering the very edge of the defended ground was a sea of elephant grass standing six to eight feet tall.


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[Assistant] Downhill there was a sheer and rocky precipice extending 30 feet and giving away to an extension in the field of tall grasses, which also invested the flanks.


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[Assistant] Greenness was all about except where the men looked to their weapons.


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[Assistant] Clutching to the rocks, creepers, and creepers for balance. No preparatory artillery fires or airstrikes had been put on the slopes around Hereford because of Warren's movement, the earlier presence of Alpha Company, and the all-around feeling that Crazy Horse Operation was slowing to a halt. This operation had been going on for a pretty long period of time. There's been all kinds of activity. They didn't feel like they needed to do any preparatory fire for this patrol.


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[Assistant] The correspondent was moving from position to position, standing erect, taking photographs and asking numerous questions. Wanting to protect Kastin, he did not know how to object his freewheeling.


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[Assistant] Though he realized that his movements were describing the limitations of the force. In fact, these things little mattered.


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[Assistant] Cassin was enjoying himself hugely. He asked Kirby, how do you, how do you feel about these things?


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[Assistant] Kirby answered, if you think you're going to get a story out of this platoon, you're wrong. Nothing will happen here.


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[Assistant] Casting continued with his rounds of the perimeter, snapping pictures and asking the men, how do you feel? Kirby lost interest and Caston kept moving. The position of the mortar, of one mortar was near the bottom of the sloped LZ, just inside the U, where the crew had dug a little pit.


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[Assistant] At approximately 1300, the platoon began supporting the descending company with the fire of the 81 millimeter mortar, the range 800 meters. It takes a while to hack through the jungle. Captain Warren got Kirby on the radio and told him, bring it closer, which Kirby tried to do. So now you've got the platoons up there. They're, they're dropping mortars in front of the platoon that's, that's driving through the jungle. An hour later, Warren called Kirby again.


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[Assistant] This time the message was an uplift. Said Warren, choppers are incoming to take you out within 30 minutes. So they're just about done.


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[Assistant] Just to recap, you've got the platoon, you've got the mortar platoon in this landing zone.


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[Assistant] That was what Warren and Kirby both fought, but the Choppers had put down at landing zone Savoy, Hennessey's command post in the valley, just to make certain orders.


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[Assistant] Rocking General Jack Norton, rocking the high command, rocking us all. Kirby got off.


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[Assistant] His 17th mortar round in support of the advancing company. That being the last one he fired.


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[Assistant] Remember they had 18 rounds. He just fired his 17th round. Then the thing happened. There was no advance warning.


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[Assistant] Sergeant Lewis Buckley and PFC Wade Taste were still collecting the company water cans and other material for the flight.


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[Assistant] Moving carelessly in the open, even as was correspondent Tastin.


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[Assistant] The other men, including Kirby, stayed put in their foxholes. That they did so was less a sign of their alertness than of their forthcoming operational routine. Once lodged in position, they had not moved to scout its surroundings. The long trek via the jungle trail had half, had them half bushed. So they're tired.


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[Assistant] Over much of the distance they had to move, they were crouching because of the tiny overhang, there was no shade where they were sprawled, the sun beat directly down on them, and it was not less than 100 degrees.


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[Assistant] The word was passed from hole to hole that they were returning to home base, nothing much else.


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[Assistant] Not even the eccentric movements and questions of Castan interested them.


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[Assistant] The hour must have been about 1330 from upslope and from not more than 50 yards away came a, came the fire of a heavy machine gun. It's bullet stream was dead on the mortar, the first rounds ripping through the tube as if the weapon had already been zeroed in. Thereafter, it beat directly on the mortar pit with never a pause.


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[Assistant] But it was superfluous. Though he did not know it, being too close to the mortar, a split second before Kirby had reacted, his own men had started the fight. On the left of the inverted U, it would have been the right flank had these men been facing uphill once the fire was. Specs for Paul J. Harrison and Charles Stuckey.


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[Assistant] Had seen three enemy skirmishers moving in through the elephant grass, not five meters beyond their foxholes.


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[Assistant] Their M16's, their M16 fire signaled a detection of movement to which the enemy machine gun instantly responded. As swiftly as those three weapons spoke from the elephant grass on three sides of the perimeter rifle, fire cracked and Kirby sensed that his position was almost totally enveloped. So he gets the feeling that we're surrounded.


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[Assistant] Though the main body moving through the jungle was too far down the slope to get the sounds of the fight.


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[Assistant] Almost as if he may have expected that this would happen. He knew Kirby as a thoroughly brave soldier. And this is the unnamed person from, from the manual.


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[Assistant] And had they been, without knowing, moving into an ambush, the disaster that too soon followed could have been even greater. Far above them, on the slope of Hereford, men who still move crouched below to escape the sheet of fire beating from all sides. Most of Kirby's men had died in the first ten minutes, though he did not know that yet.


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[Assistant] The return fire from his people grew steadily fainter.


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[Assistant] In his agitation, he tried to turn the mortar around to fire it uphill, not even noticing that it had been drilled through. The incoming fire was too great and his strength too little, so he slithered up on his belly to the left flank and dropped into a foxhole. Upslope, he could see 40 to 50 men at a run out of the trees.


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[Assistant] Into the elephant grass where he lost sight of them.


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[Assistant] It came to him as a sudden idea that he should fire too. He thought he, he thought as he fired, he had dropped at least four enemy skirmishers with his M16. So, by the way, I mean we're already talking about a totally outnumbered force.


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[Assistant] Sergeant Buckaloo, Paul Buckaloo, 22 years in the army, was having his first go in combat.


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[Assistant] Sergeant Johnson couldn't find his spare magazine, so he picked up an M16 with 15 rounds in it from the dead hand of Sergeant Edward Shepard, who had no business being there that afternoon. Though he ranked Kirby and might have taken command, he was overdue to be lifted out by Chopper for an appearance before a promotion board.


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[Assistant] Another long time soldier under fire for the first time. He had stayed motionless, petrified by personal terror as boundless as the horror exploding all about him. His 15 bullets gone, Johnson crawled toward the mortar pit screaming, come out, you'll all be killed.


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[Assistant] There was no response. It was minutes too late for that. The whole held four corpses. Heads bashed in by bullet fire.


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[Assistant] The Russian made P40 a round of so slow of motion that the eye easily falls as the trajectory came arcing in dead center of the mark. Kirby saw it in flight and yelled, watch out, so did his foxhole mates.


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[Assistant] Spec for Austin L. Drummond and David S. Crocker, who cried warning in the same split second. Before any man could move, the rocket exploded just to the left of the hole. Crocker died instantly from a shard that crushed in his skull. Drummond took heavy fragments in the left arm and left leg.


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[Assistant] Drummond tried to rise. Kirby pulled at him. Drummond screamed, let me go. I'm hurting, hurting. Kirby pulled him down. Within a minute, he died under Kirby's body.


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[Assistant] He later could, later he could not recall that Sprenza had also asked for gunfire and air artillery. But anyhow, he relayed that message to the command capsule at LZ Savoy and Sprenza got the word back from him, it's on the way.


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[Assistant] These FM radios that they're using, they work when you can see them. So they work a line of sight, what we call line of sight. But if there's a ridge line in between you, then they don't work. So whatever the terrain was, they kind of dipped down the terrain and all of a sudden they lost communications.


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[Assistant] The break off doubled Warren's anxiety, though he was already doing everything possible. He had asked that artillery be placed on the slopes alongside the perimeter, not on Hereford itself, for Kirby had passed on nothing about casualties, and Warren was still thinking of 22 live men holding the contested ground. The double time climb,


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[Assistant] Passing information on the radio is so freaking important and so hard, but if you always think that you're trying to paint a picture for the person on the other end, you've got to think that way. They don't know what's happening.


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[Assistant] I mean obviously these guys are in such a horrible way, but that's what's happening.


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[Assistant] That's what's happening. He doesn't know that anyone's been wounded. He doesn't know that anyone's been killed. He thinks that they're in that position and he's saying, hey, start to put artillery on the, on the outskirts of the LZ.


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[Assistant] The sounds of the struggle had not carried to LZ Savoy.


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[Assistant] In the distant valley bottom, the control point was a throb, partly because of Warren's call for help, still more because of the monitoring of the conversations between eyewitnesses who were viewing the fight from platforms directly overhead. What they saw and what they said in no way lessened the confusions.


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[Assistant] A lot of times there would be aircraft because they had air superiority for the most part and so there would be helicopters that would just get up. C&T helicopters, command and control helicopters that would just get up.


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[Assistant] And fly around and be watching this stuff. I have a friend whose dad was in Vietnam and he was a Silver Star recipient and the whole thing was photographed.


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[Assistant] This whole event, you know, there was a, a gunfight broke out and his dad sort of jumped into a, a dike and then crawled along and flanked the enemy and the whole, he had pictures of the whole thing is, but that, but that tells you what it's like. What do you got Dave?


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[Assistant] You got this guy, Warren, who's, he doesn't really know. He knows that his guy is a good guy and that he's calling for help.


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[Assistant] And it says, that's enough for him to realize that there's something really, really bad. But there's a panic. There's a panic of hate, like,


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[Assistant] You know, if you call me and Dave, you're on the LZ, you call me, hey Jaco, I need support right now. I'd be like, okay, hey guys, listen, we're gonna start taking abou- They almost immediately go into-


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[Assistant] You know, go, get your asses back up. He literally says, get your ass back up the hill now. So there's a level of...


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[Assistant] Let's say, uh, urgency that he gets to almost immediately. And as we peel this onion back, you're going to see that you're right.


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[Assistant] But the picture that he's painted is what's happening. He knew something was gonna go wrong. And...


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[Assistant] As soon as it starts to happen, he's like, get back up there because he didn't feel comfortable with it. It's...


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[Assistant] The battalion commander, Major Roll, his S3, and Captain Robert Offer, artillery liaison, were at the Brigade CP when the news came in. They took off in a Huey to view the fight from above.


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[Assistant] This is like, this is, like, Hackworth would get on the ground. Just kinda FYI, just so everybody knows. Hackworth would get in the helicopter and then he'd land. When it made sense, obviously.


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[Assistant] Before they could reach the scene, out of sheer happenstance, Major Otto Cantrell, the battalion executive officer of 112, was already hovering above it. He'd been flying.


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[Assistant] In the area, he'd arrived at the opposite peak when he heard Warren's voice in the earphone saying that a platoon was being overrun.


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[Assistant] On Hereford. So, so Warren did know that the platoon was being overrun at this point. So he flew to station directly above and began orbiting. Low enough to see people milling around and firing on the ground below him, Cantrell was yet too high to determine whether they were friend or enemy.


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[Assistant] An artillery observer in another H-13 had flown the same way and was circling near Cantrell. He asked Cantrell, sir, can I bring in fire? Cantrell replied, no, I can't tell where our people are.


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[Assistant] Cantrell then flew lower. And at about that time, Beard, the battalion commander, and his party arrived. They could see 40 or more men pressing close to the perimeter. They must be VC called Beard.


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[Assistant] Either that, replied Cantrell, or GIs with uniforms soaking wet.


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[Assistant] So this is a, I know it seems crazy to think that you couldn't tell the difference between, you know, uh, American soldiers and Viet Cong. I'll tell you, when you're in a helicopter and you're looking at things on the ground, it is not obvious.


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[Assistant] I was, I learned this, I was, I was up at Fallon and we were calling in helicopters to pick us up and I'm sitting there, I'm standing, you know, the terrain in Fallon, Nevada is not, there's no trees, it's just dirt.


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[Assistant] And we're standing there, and the helicopter's sitting there looking at the helicopter, it's, it's, the wind is hitting me, that's how close it is, and they can't see me.


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[Assistant] So that's where these guys are at. Back to the book. His words merely aggravated doubts all around. Cantrell's trouble was that he simply could not make himself believe that one whole American platoon had been wiped out.


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[Assistant] There and he was right. Now this is where what you were talking about. You have this idea. How could a whole American platoon get wiped out? And?


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[Assistant] It says in the book here, therein he was right. And it is right. Why?


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[Assistant] When we'll get to this later, this American platoon with 22 guys is not a platoon. Right? That's not a platoon.


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[Assistant] You think of a platoon, you think of multiple machine gunners, you think of 40 guys.


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[Assistant] The phenomena of those few seconds doubled his perplexity. On the ridge crest above Hereford, he saw a company of men in dark suits marching to sh- marking- marching to the sh- to the fire.


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[Assistant] Shellfire was breaking into the landing zone. Cantrell had no way of knowing that these were enemy rocket rounds, not American rounds, coming from other bases. The dark suited men upslope, he identified his enemy. He knew that, he knew that camouflage rig, which from a distance made, made them, to him, look like so many turtles. But where were the Americans? If not on Hereford.


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[Assistant] It was Spranza getting off his last message, but Cantrell had no way of knowing that either. Beard viewing from the same height was for a moment equally in the dark. From the start of the fight with good reason, Kirby had forgotten Kastin, the correspondent.


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[Assistant] He remembered only when Kastin slid into his position to ask, when are we going to get the hell out of here?


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[Assistant] Kirby didn't answer. Then Kastin said, I've got to have a weapon.


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[Assistant] And Kirby silently handed him his own 357 Magnum. Quiet now, he briefly fitted into the hole beside Kirby.


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[Assistant] All curiosity about the thoughts of men facing death was gone from Caston. He had been eagerly questioning Shepard when the first shots were fired that that soldier's swift moral collapse and sudden death were his first shot contact with the realities which mocked his quest.


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[Assistant] While Kasten's opening words to Kirby rankled, they also rang a bell. Almost anywhere seemed to be better than the exposed ground to which the survivors clutched, now under a dustpall, kicked up by the grazing fire. The fight had been going somewhere between 20 and 25 minutes, and the fire was fastly becoming wholly one-sided. Next,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] To Kirby's position, the enemy skirmishers crawling through the elephant grass were not more than 15 feet away. The fire buildup suggested they were bunching, probably for a rush. Kirby saw them fleetingly and vaguely, as through a haze.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] In this moment of decision, Kirby did not doubt that the ring had been closed and that all the skirmishers waited on the lower slope amid the tall elephant grass between him and the company poised for the kill. So he's sitting there thinking okay, we're surrounded.


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[Assistant] And I know the company's down the hill, but there's, there's bad guys in between us. Still he yelled out, let's make it.


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[Assistant] With that, he rolled out of his hole and down the slope. Kastin jumped from the hole just ahead of him and was running upright and in the clear. PFC Bob Tastes and Spec 4 AV Spikes from the foxhole above Kirby went past Kirby, one rolling, the other sprinting, then Spranza dashed by him.


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[Assistant] As he rolled, Kirby thought he glimpsed Isaac Johnson off to his left, firing two M16s.


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[Assistant] He was wrong about that. Johnson had heard someone not quite echoing Kirby shout move down the hill. His own weapon was empty. He paused briefly to pick up another only to find it in like condition.


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[Assistant] Now in panic because he was unarmed, he made a running dive at the rocky embankment, giving him, getting him off Hereford Lower's side.


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[Assistant] Then he rolled on and on downslope till his body could take no more beating. In that spinning descent, he covered 150 meters of rock strewn trail.


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[Assistant] Dove off a freaking cliff, fell down 150 meters and now he's hiding in this little ravine. Not too far above him the ordeal of the other few survivors continue to grow worse.


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[Assistant] Of this, Johnson felt and remembered nothing. Thought paralyzed by the grip of exhaustion. He had closed his mind to the sounds.


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[Assistant] Getting out separately, some running, others rolling. Kirby's men had stayed that way during the first few yards of flight, through the short grass just off the LZ, coming to the rocky steep. They began to converge toward the center, whence the trail ran downhill. It is always so with men against fire.


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[Assistant] Fear and herd instinct brings them together, which is the worst.


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[Assistant] Which is the worst thing that can happen since it just shapes up a broad target.


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[Assistant] He still lived, and now he was erect and walking. Kastin, the reporter, yelled back, Hell, everybody's hit.


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[Assistant] That was news to the others. Kastin had taken a bullet in one arm and several grenade frags in the back saying nothing. In his last moments, the correspondent had the courage of a lion. Here was a man and they knew it. Spikes yelled, I'm hit.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It was a bullet through the right arm. They then moved 20 feet down the rock bank when Spranza yelled again, hold it up. They're in front of us.


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[Assistant] Expecting it would come, Kirby froze right where he was. Kastin kept moving in long strides straight to the trail which led downhill through the elephant grass. He had made up his mind and Kirby did not bother to shout a warning. Standing clear on the, on the trail was an enemy shoulder. Soldier. Rifle aimed. Kirby heard a scream as Kastin went down.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Though Casten was not 15 yards from him, he could not see the fall as the body was enveloped by the sea of grass.


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[Assistant] He heard the whack of the bullet and the thump of the body. The bullet had drilled cast in through his left temple.


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[Assistant] Kasten's personal effect were looted as soon after he fell. The camera, films, and purse were later recovered from the bodies of the enemy in the fight that soon followed. Many of the next of kin get not even that grain of comfort.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It is an agonizing matter for the commanders, having to explain why the dead soldiers most prized possessions and pictures cannot be returned.


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[Assistant] They're chattering, the clang of metal from their weapons being worked. He was down on his haunches and so were sprandza, spikes, and taste. None was firing. Their only thought was to hide in the grass.


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[Assistant] Which rose two feet taller than a standing man. They all knew taste was slowly dying. Two bullets in his neck, multiple mortar shards in his back. Though conscious, he made no complaint, only asking for water, of which there was none.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The skirmishers were moving up now and beating the grass on both sides of them. Kirby saw seven of them coming right toward him, not ten feet away. And he knew he was discovered.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The other two crawled away, leaving blood trails. Another skirmisher closed in from the left, spraying the ground between them with automatic pistol. Kirby had his M79 crooked in his arm.


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[Assistant] He had just taken another bullet through the right wrist and was feeling the wound. The skirmisher came on and looked through the grass straight at them. Spikes fired his M79. The range was so short that the grenade didn't arm, but the sheer velocity, it blew the man's head off.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] One burst caught him in the head. The sound was enough. Kirby, two feet from him, didn't have to look to know he was dead. And he did not wish to look.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Thinking that the enemy might have dropped one. No luck. He was wholly out of ammunition. And had no arm left. But a flare pistol.


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[Assistant] So he lay flat on his back wondering what to do. Another skirmisher came ba- came up, parted the grass and looked directly down on him. Kirby rolled over on his side in the same motion, fired his flare pistol upward. The round smashed into the glaring face not three feet above him. Getting him right between the eyes. The body was spun completely over by the blast with the figure kicking.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Kirby did not wait to see more than that. He crawled back the way he had come to get Spranza. The impulse was that if he had to die, he would rather not be alone. Both men were silent now. There was nothing to say. Time had about run out.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] They thought they were the only survivors though, this they were slightly wrong. Johnson was still face down in his private cleft. Spec for Charles Stuckey, whose swift reaction had started the fight, had moved obliquely to the others in getting away from the perimeter. Hidden in the tall grass alongside the knob, he had rare fortune.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Until the final minutes he came under a grenade shower, the last of the survivors to get hit.


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[Assistant] Directly towards Kirby and Spranza, another enemy group moved down the slope. Kirby didn't wait for them. Having nothing to fire, he crawled upward through the elephant grass, leaving Spranza and passing the skirmishers undetected.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] They fairly stumbled across Spranza. He played dead, his head being gory from a bullet that had entered his left ear and emerged through his nose. It is less remarkable that the deception worked than that he stayed conscious and was capable of thought.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] They rolled him over, searched his pockets, took his wallet, knife, and cigarettes, and continued on. Having gone inert, Speranza stayed that way. Kirby had no sense of the barraging of Hereford.


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[Assistant] Though the fire had been going on all of 10 minutes, now as he crawled upward he heard, at last heard the explosions and knew what they were.


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[Assistant] That determined him. He would crawl to the fire and try and hug it.


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[Assistant] Two thoughts were in his mind. Charlie will get as far away from this as possible, and if he had to die, that was still the preferable risk.


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[Assistant] Not knowing what that meant, he still crawled on. It was a tortured, most labored movement


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[Assistant] As his last reserve of will and strength was draining away, he got within six feet of the first foxhole before he looked up.


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[Assistant] What he saw almost numbed his senses and he felt as if he would faint.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Sitting in the foxhole pointing an M16 directly at his head was PFC Morgan of First Platoon.