[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now some people might think this is weak, but it isn't. The whole reason the team exists is to accomplish the mission. The more unified the team is, the more capable it is of accomplishing the mission. If I am causing a rift in the team, I am hurting our mission capability.


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[Assistant] If I have no relationship, I have no influence. If I have no influence, I can't get them to do anything.


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[Assistant] I learned an important lesson, this is skipping ahead, when I go through the kind of details of how it trans, how it unfolded from there.


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[Assistant] I learned an important lesson. I can't change the group if I am not in the group.


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[Assistant] But if I'm in the group, I can move it. Maybe not as much or as quickly as I want to, but at least I can move it in the right direction.


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[Assistant] So, that's what this is. That's why the, that's why the, the section is called Conform to Influence. Cause when you're not part of the team, you have no influence. If you're an outsider, that's great. You held the line for yourself. Awesome. Awesome. Great.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Guess what? The female that asked this question down in Australia. Really good question. At the muster in Australia. You know, she said, hey,


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[Assistant] I'm trying to get other people on my team to, you know, take care of themselves with physical fitness.


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[Assistant] They're not doing it. And here I am, I work out every day, I eat clean foods all day, I work out after work, they see me heading to work out, they see me coming in after I got done working out, they see the foods that I'm eating, and they just don't care. And, you know, I kinda had to tell this story.


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[Assistant] Which is, well, how much influence are you having over these people to improve their health when they don't like you?


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[Assistant] Actually, I think we talked about this on the grounded podcast when you were on when you got to echelon front


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[Assistant] I mean, that's a classic example. You're a, well, how old were you? 45 year old retired lieutenant colonel from the United States Marine Corps.


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[Assistant] And these knuckleheads are over here doing some random sport that you've never heard of? Okay, well, let's see what it's about. Yeah, I'm in. That's, that's legit.


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[Assistant] My, my initial response to that is to say yes, so I can show humility and be like, yeah, I knew. But honestly, I really wanted to be a good seal.


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[Assistant] And as far as I could tell, there were a couple people that were around that were super hardcore. And I was like, hey, I want to be super hardcore too. So, I didn't really think, like, I was honestly,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I was trying to be hardcore. I was trying to be like, ready for war. That's-


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[Assistant] That's really what my thoughts were. I wasn't, I'm trying to think, there's other, I mean, there's a million other things that I've done that were stupid that I was like, hey, look at me.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And you know what? It doesn't matter because guess how it came across? It came across like that's what I was doing. So whether, so that perception is reality. That was the perception. The perception was I was showing off. Hey, look at me. And that pissed guys off. That pissed guys off.


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[Assistant] That as I thought through answering your question, you know, again, I want to come off as like being all humble and so I'm like, yeah, you know, I want to, but I honestly wasn't, I honestly wasn't. And what's even more important about this is that the fact that the, the, the, my intentions did not matter.


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[Assistant] You're out here running with a rucksack on thinking, you know, you think you're cool, even though I was thinking, Hey, aren't we going to carry weight when we go into combat? That's what I was thinking. Hey, I'm not going to go into combat wearing running shoes. I'm going to go wearing jungle boots. So I'm wearing my jungle boots. That was what I was thinking. Doesn't matter. Doesn't matter the best intentions.


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[Assistant] And then, if you take that in a really mature way, which I lacked, but I was, I was, this is again, these are like, these are like maneuvers that I barely made, you know? Like when the Terminator responses popped up in my eyes when guys started, you know, getting a little bit more.


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[Assistant] So it wasn't just me being hyper mature and super detached and able to, part of it was like, Hey man, I don't want to piss these guys off. These guys are the guys that give me my trident or not. Yeah. But I definitely felt that this was a platoon. I wanted to be part of the platoon. And if you're not part of the platoon,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You're, you're, you're hurting the team. You're truly hurting the team. They need you and you need the most powerful thing in a platoon is the glue that holds you all together. It's the friendship, it's the trust, it's the relationships that you have. That's what makes a platoon awesome. When one person is outside that bond,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That, that's a, that's a detriment to the team. And I felt that. And I didn't want to do that. So it's like okay.


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[Assistant] I gotta conform, I gotta get on board with what the guys are doing. As Dave said, it was real obvious for Dave when he checked into his squadron, like, hey, I'm, okay, I'm,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Here, going back to the book, does this mean you fall in line and conform no matter what to be the part of the team? No, absolutely not. You should maintain your individual, individuality and unique personality and perspective. Just make sure your personality doesn't interfere with your ability to build relationships within the group. But what if the group is bad? As I've said before, and I covered this in another section, if


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It is, if the group is doing things that are immoral, illegal, or unethical, you have to stand up. You have to be smart about, but you have to be smart about how you make your stand, but participation or passive approval of such behavior makes you culpable. And then I, I say I cover this section in another part, on a different page.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Well, once again, is it better for me to have an antagonistic relationship with everyone on the team?


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[Assistant] Or is it better for me to have good relationships where I can say, hey, can, can we talk about what we're doing? Cause right now I'm feeling like we might not be able to accomplish our mission or we're gonna, there's the difference.


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[Assistant] I mean, we've all been a part of a team where there's people on the team that aren't part of the team. And guess who's listening to them?


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[Assistant] And so what you have to do is you have to conform in order to influence.


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[Assistant] I wasn't trying to impress anyone. But. It's interesting you're asking these questions. But.


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[Assistant] I did get a vibe from some people that weren't in my platoon that was kinda like, kinda like, yea, and most of those guys were way older.


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[Assistant] And I see some young blood that are toeing the line. That gets me so happy, right? I love it. I'll talk to those guys all night long. I'll hang out with them because


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[Assistant] Like, they're not, I'm not competing with them, right? I'm totally gone, I'm literally retired. Whereas maybe you're, you know, if I was a little bit more in the zone with them, I might be like, who's this guy think he is? Right? You might have that attitude. So there was some people that were way above me in the chain of command.


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[Assistant] I showed up, I got hired out of Wendy's, and the guy, he had a little crew, and he comes in.


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[Assistant] And he looks at me, and I'm, I'm the guy with the burgers on the grill, and I'm flipping burgers, and he looks at me and he goes, what are you, he's, what are you doing working here?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And I said, paying rent. You know, I was like 16 or 17. And he says, you want to work construction.


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[Assistant] I'm so, you can't even believe how happy I was. And I go, absolutely. And he goes, cause they were doing a project across the street. And he goes, come by tomorrow morning, 6 o'clock in the morning.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Bro, I was so happy. Show up. And the first thing he tells me was there was a bunch of concrete blocks had been dropped off by a dump truck and they were, whatever, 50 meters away from where they were gonna need to be placed for the foundation of this building we were building.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And so he leaves me and this other guy, uh, Lewis. And Lewis was a character, man. He had just gotten out of prison.


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[Assistant] And, and I mean, he really looked like Robert De Niro, like he could have played, he could, he could have been Robert De Niro, he looked just like him. And he just got out of prison, and his, he was related to the owner, and so it was, you know, hey, can you give, can you give, uh, Louis a job? Yeah, okay. So.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] We get tasked, they leave me and Lewis there to move these blocks. And bro, I, I am so


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[Assistant] I'm happy to have this job. I'm running. I'm running with two blocks at a time, one in each hand. I'm running back and forth and putting them in the position. And I mean, he gave, they gave us like three hours to get this done and I was done in 45 minutes and I'm not even kidding, like I was getting after it. But yea, it took like 10 minutes for Lewis to, you know, tell me, hey partner,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And actually he talked like, it wasn't a hey partner, it was like, this is, this is, uh, the northeast, like Italian, he's like, he's like, hey, you need to, uh, you need to slow it down my friend over there.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And I just, I told him, hey, you don't need to do anything. I got this. I mean, I was, I was pumped. But yeah, same thing, right? Like, like, but in that one, I didn't conform to influence. I just worked so hard as you just don't need to worry about me. I'm happy. I'm as happy as a person can get.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] We're using leadership to solve. So if someone has a negative problem, how do we, how do we fix that? Put them in charge. We have someone that needs to get humble, that needs to learn some humility, how do you do that? Put them in charge.


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[Assistant] That's what you do. You put them in charge of something that they can't barely handle. And what's interesting is sometimes you get feedback like, wouldn't it be better, like let's say Dave has big ego.


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[Assistant] And wouldn't it be better just to have a straightforward kind of robust conversation with Dave and say, listen Dave, I think your ego is a little out of control and I think you need to humble yourself.


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[Assistant] And that, and we have a good relationship and I can approach it in a, in a way that's indirect enough that it doesn't offend him.


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[Assistant] And I can sit him down, and sometimes you can be direct with someone. If you've got a great relationship with someone, if you and I have a great relationship, and I go, hey man, you're letting your ego get the best of you.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] If I think you're trying to help me, I'm gonna listen to you. Yep, yep. So, so there are times that that can work. Here's the problem. There are more times.


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[Assistant] When we just point blank tell them, well, we're attacking their ego, they're gonna dig in, it's gonna get even worse.


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[Assistant] So I want you to have more confidence. That's not what we're talking about. When instead I say, hey Dave, you know what? I've been watching you. And I'm seeing what you're doing. And it seems to me like you've got some potential here.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] For real leadership. And what I want to do is I want to assign a couple things to you here. In fact, we got this project that we're working on, and I want you to actually take charge of this. And then Dave, who lacks confidence, says, ah boss, I'm not really ready for this. And I go, hey look, let me just show you what the project consists of. It's this and this. It's pretty straight forward.


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[Assistant] I know. You've actually already done this. You just haven't been the person with the name on it. Look at it. Look at the- look at what the- Oh yeah. Yeah, you see you can do this?


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[Assistant] This is a great place for you to start. Let's knock this thing out of the park.


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[Assistant] And all of a sudden Dave does it and his confidence goes up a little bit, right? It's real. It's real. So the idea that we can


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[Assistant] Just use words. Look, it's, it absolutely, hey, can I have a conversation with Dave and say, hey Dave, you know what, right now, you might not feel like you're ready, but you're ready. Can that boost his confidence? Yes, it can. I'm not saying that it can't. It can. Can I possibly say, hey Dave, your ego's out of control, and you need to, you need to start being a little bit more humble, and that can work? Yes, it can work. But for the reasons I just gave, there's a, there's the, the more powerful tool,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Is using leadership. Using leadership to teach people. So, got a whole section in here on that. Building or rebuilding confidence.


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[Assistant] And by the way, you don't necessarily need to be correcting a problem to use leadership as a, as a instruction tool. You don't need that.


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[Assistant] You don't, you don't need it at all. You can, you can actually, uh,


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[Assistant] Like you don't need to have a problem. I don't need to go to Dave and think, oh Dave's got a big ego or lacks confidence or bad attitude to say, now I'm going to put him in charge. No, no, I want to have an awesome team.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I mean, when somebody asks me, hey, I got a person with a bad attitude, and I say put him in charge. Someone says, hey, I got a person with a big ego, and I say put him in charge. Someone says, hey, I've got a person that lacks confidence, and I say put him in charge. Counterintuitive every time, but it is absolutely the best tool.


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[Assistant] And you know what? I think you can start stepping up and I got some stuff here that I think is going to be easy pie for you.


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[Assistant] Here, here's the next project. And Dave grabs it and goes, I got this. But as, you know, again, this is all explained in detail in the books. How much, what level of project are you gonna give? We want it to be enough that we're not crushing them with that project.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Is the hindrance to why the direct conversation isn't as effective as real world experience. Same thing with someone that lacks confidence.


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[Assistant] Isn't enough to propel me past it. Just like when someone tells me I need to be more humble, that's not compelling enough for me to actually get humble because I already think I'm awesome. And when I lack confidence, I don't think I'm good enough. So what we need is to actually reinforce.


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[Assistant] With compelling methods, how to improve people in this paradigm of problems that they have.


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[Assistant] Yeah, the amount of people, the amount of relationships that are so strong that this sort of, hey, just gonna hit you with the direct feedback is, you know, tiny percentage, tiny percentage of relationships.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I'm gonna jump to this section, leading peers. Leading peers is one of the most challenging types of leadership when rank and position are equivalent, more tact is needed, and an even better relationship must be built. Once a relationship is built, you can use influence to lead the team in the right direction. This is not a bad thing since influence is always the preferred method of leading.


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[Assistant] I'll say that again. Influence is always the preferred method of leading. Influence is especially critical when leading peers. Influence can be a challenge to develop with peers because when rank is equivalent, egos often become more visible. Right? Rank


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] My superior rank to yours has some level of trumping your ego, beating down your ego. When there's no rank, when the ranks are equivalent, all of a sudden the ego becomes the rank in many cases.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] People are always either looking to prop themselves up to get an edge on others. If you allow your ego to manifest itself when working with peers, you will draw out the worst of your peers ego as well. Egos must be subdued. Start with subduing your own.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The military parlance for friendly fire, which means you will end up destroying your own team.


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[Assistant] Don't allow that to happen. Take the high ground and put your ego in check. Yeah.


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[Assistant] One of the best ways to subdue your own egos and start building a relationship with your peers is by supporting their ideas.


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[Assistant] They might come up with a plan that's slightly different from yours, but if it's functional and we'll get the job done, support it. Let them take the lead. Don't feel the need to stick your chest out and flex your ideas. Instead, support your peers' ideas. Even if you think your idea is better, if your peers' idea is close, go with it.


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[Assistant] Straightforward. And I do talk about the fact that some people


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[Assistant] You know, you might take offense to that. When I say, hey, hey Dave, why don't you lead this? You might be thinking, were you trying to get me to do all the work? Yeah. So you have to monitor that as well. You got people, people are crazy.


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[Assistant] I go on here, skipping forward a little bit. If one of your peers' egos is out of control and they begin to maneuver to make themselves look good or even make you look bad, don't fall into the ego trap.


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[Assistant] Don't attack them, simply continue to do great work and put the mission first. They might get some initial positive attention from their selfish actions, but eventually they will be uncovered. Take the high ground or the high ground will take you.


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[Assistant] You know, that's like the guy that doesn't pass information about, you know, what technique you're using when you're flying your jet. Just gonna keep that to yourself. It's like,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So easy to get trapped by that. So easy to just...


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[Assistant] And it's like from, from the boss's perspective, when you see the guy that's trying to torpedo the other people,


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[Assistant] And it might take you a minute to realize it, right? It might take you, it might take the boss a little bit of time. And don't be the rat either, right? Oh god no. Yea yea yea. You don't want to be the rat either, but you keep, you focus on the mission, you focus on doing the right thing. That rat's gonna, that rat's gonna, his tail's gonna get seen. It's gonna get caught in the trap. Yea.


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[Assistant] Got a section. Micromanaging. Indecisive or weak bosses. And I talk about what we do. How do we handle them.


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[Assistant] We're gonna talk about the weak boss, because I do a little section for each of those, but the weak boss.


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[Assistant] There are some bosses who are just plain lackluster.


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[Assistant] My boss is weak. It is horrible. I've heard this complaint over and over again. I never looked at a weak boss as horrible.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I always looked at a weak boss as an opportunity. If my boss doesn't want to come up with a plan, guess what?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I will. If my boss doesn't want to clarify the mission, guess what? I will. If my boss doesn't want to take ownership, guess what? I will. And if my boss doesn't want to lead, guess what? I will. So that's pretty straightforward. Uh, you can probably imagine there's a but coming, but be cautious.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] As with micromanaging bosses or indecisive bosses, with a weak boss, you have to be careful when you step up to lead. Even with the feeblest and weakest of bosses, sorry, even the feeblest and weakest of bosses have egos.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So don't be offensive or overly assertive when you start to make things happen. Use soft language and frame things in ways that do not diminish the boss's ego, but actually boost it.


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[Assistant] Here's some examples. Hey boss, I know you got a lot going on, so I was thinking it might be helpful if I jumped on this project over here and moved it forward and move forward with it. Would that be alright?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Or, hey boss, I'm sorry for being slow on the update, but I just want to make sure I fully understand your vision. Do I have it right when I say, there you go, put the vision in their mouth.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Hey boss, I'm just trying to step up my game. Would you mind if I took a crack at planning this next project so I can get some experience? So, that's what you do. You don't violate


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Your relationship, you don't treat a weak, this is a guarantee, you don't, you don't like, uh, a dog, right? And talking to Mike Ritland, when, uh, I was looking to get my dog, he's, he's, he's given me advice and tests to give my dog.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The dog that's like weak, that's the dog that snaps at you. Right? The dog that's scared, that's the dog that snaps at you and bites your kid or bites someone.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And this is the same thing. People think, oh, the boss is weak. I can walk all over him. Yeah, try that. See how it works out. That guy's gonna bite you. That boss is gonna bite you. So you need to use caution in that scenario.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Jumping forward here to the nearly indefensible leader.


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[Assistant] The nearly, and this comes on a, you know, talking about a bunch of things about how, what you do.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] How you defend your leader, how you, how you take your leader's ideas on board and move forward with them, like we're talking about that, right? We're supporting our leader, we're talking about that.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So continuing on here, it's always good to support your leader. If you undermine a leader, it not only hurts them, it also hurts the morale of the troops as well as you as a subordinate leader. You are setting an example. If the example you set is one of disrespect up the chain of command, you can expect much the same from the people you're leading.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So think about that, you're setting the example, if you're talking smack about your boss, they're gonna talk smack about you. And that's a little trap you can fall into too, because if Dave and I are working for Echo, and Echo's whatever, got problems, weak, jacked up,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] One really easy way for you for me to bond with you Dave is be like echo sucks and you go Yeah, and we're bonding but It's not good. It's not good


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So, continuing on, when presenting a plan to your troops that you don't necessarily agree with, you could say, well I don't agree with this plan, but it's what the boss is telling us to do, so we have to do it anyway.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And everyone always gives an example like that. Clearly, that is not a good approach. They will see that you don't believe in the plan, and if you don't believe in it, why should anyone on your team believe in it?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And if no one believes in it, then why on earth should the team actually execute it?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] When a decision is made or a course of action comes down from the chain of command, you must execute it as if it were your own. Sure, you can debate your boss behind closed doors about what course of action you think is best, but once the decision has been made, you get on board and execute to the best of your ability. You tell the troops, the boss and I talked through this for quite a while.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And when you look at it from all different angles, especially considering some of the bigger picture effects, I actually think this is the best solution for how we execute. So we're gonna get it done. Like, okay. You know? Okay. That's cool.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And this is, this stuff is just so nuanced. And you, and you, we already talked about it somewhere in the last podcast, how do you explain when you're doing something that maybe doesn't make sense?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] As much sense as you want it to. And by the way, the whole belief thing, like if I don't believe in what we're doing, real problem. And I talk about that as well.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But here we go, but there are times. So I'm saying, hey, when the boss, if the boss is doing like.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Like reasonable stuff, borderline reasonable, right? Or the things that you were talking about, I think it was on the last podcast, David. It's like, hey, we're, the chances of me getting ordered to do something that is legitimately catastrophic are so small. So we're not talking about that.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Most of the time we're talking about something like, hey, I don't 100% agree with this, but we're gonna work. We're gonna build a relationship. I'm gonna build a relationship enough so that, you know, my boss is never gonna tell me.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So we're not talking about that. Now, now we start talking about a boss that is nearly indefen- indefensible. There are times when the boss can be nearly indefensible. Notice I'm saying nearly.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Perhaps she is egotistical or arrogant. Maybe he is condescending to the troops.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Or maybe the boss makes bad decisions over and over again. In these cases, blindly defending the boss will put you at odds with the team members. They see and know the boss is horrible. And if you blindly defend them, if you blindly defend the boss, your credibility takes a hit.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But that doesn't mean that openly belittling or disparaging the boss is a good option.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That behavior from you leads to complete disrespect from the team and a failure of good order and discipline. You have to balance defending the boss with connecting with the troops.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Convey the right message. That even if you don't have the highest regard for your boss, you still value the importance of accomplishing the mission. So that's the scenario. You got your boss that is like ba- they're not good. But you can't openly disparage them because they're not doing any


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Any hanging offenses, right? They're not doing anything, they're ordering catastrophic missions.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So here's the type of language we're gonna use to the, to the troops. Listen, the boss might not be perfect, but he is driving us toward the same strategic goal we want to accomplish. So we're moving. Another one. Look, the boss may, might not be ideal.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But she still gives us the support we need. And the better we perform, the more support we will get. There you go. Lucky or not, you're on that fine line. Here's another one. Hey, the boss has some quirks.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But we know where he stands, so we work with him to the best of our abilities, which means dealing with those quirks so we can get the job done.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Another one. Complaining about the boss doesn't get us anywhere and it doesn't make our jobs easier. What we can do is try to form a good relationship with her so we can influence her in the right direction.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So that's what you do. And by the way, none of these are, none of these are, uh, uh, lies.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] These are like the truth. These are what you should do. These are what you are doing as a leader.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Punish must be, punishment must be dealt out at times, but a good leader should need to use it seldomly.


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[Assistant] If a leader gives good, clear guidance about what needs to be done, how it needs to be done, why it needs to be done, and what the consequences are if it is not done correctly,


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[Assistant] I'll just continue. If, for some reason, your troops don't execute the plan, then of course, you should first look in the mirror. Do not assume the troops have simply decided to do what- decided not to do what was required of them. Instead, assume you did not give them appropriate direction, and that is the reason for the transgression.


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[Assistant] If you have confirmed that a rule was violated or direction not followed even though it was understood, some punishment must be meted out.


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[Assistant] This should be rare, because if a leader is doing his or her job correctly, members of the team will understand what, how, and why they are doing what they are doing and execute it appropriately.


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[Assistant] The need to punish someone on the team is almost always a direct reflection of the leader and the failure to lead appropriately. This might seem extreme.


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[Assistant] And in fact it is. It is extreme ownership. If a team member is late, perhaps the leader failed to explain the importance of being on time. If the team member fails to complete their portion of a project, perhaps the leader didn't give the support required. If a team member drinks alcohol and gets into trouble with the police, perhaps the leader failed to set clear parameters around drinking. The list could go on indefinitely.


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[Assistant] You know, and then I go, look, I get into it, I get into the fact that sometimes punishments do need to take place.


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[Assistant] The amount of times that I punished people, like that I gave legitimate punishment to people that have worked for me, is...


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[Assistant] It's, it's a, it's less than, I mean it can count on one hand. Where this person like knowingly violated something and it was just, you need to, you need to pay. You need to pay the man on that one. But it should happen so rarely.


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[Assistant] Again, no one wants to hear that. No one wants to hear that.


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[Assistant] One of the mantras in the SEAL teams is never quit. That is one of the main refrains utilized during SEAL, basic SEAL training. And it makes a lot of sense during that training because that is how you make it through. You don't quit!


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[Assistant] No matter what training evolution comes along, no matter how hard it is, no matter how tired, sore, frustrated, exhausted, or otherwise broken you are, you don't quit. That is how you make it through SEAL training. And that is how you eventually become a SEAL. But when you get to the actual SEAL teams,


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[Assistant] That extreme attitude has to be adjusted. It has to be modulated. Because if it isn't, it can lead to disaster.


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[Assistant] The classic example of this is the young seal leader who has made it through the basic seal training and shows up at the seal time team. He has heard the mantra, mantra, never quit thousands and thousands of times. He has yelled it to his friends and whispered it to himself.


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[Assistant] It has become ingrained in his head. And I go through a scenario, which is one of many, where guess what? What, what you just, what you need to do is actually quit.


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[Assistant] You need to stop. You need to stop what you're doing. You need, you're gonna get your entire platoon killed. You're gonna, you're gonna destroy the situation that you're in.


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[Assistant] And you need to be able to detach, look around and figure out a different way. Of course, no one wants to hear that. But, if you are patrolling towards a target and they open up with multiple bunkered machine guns,


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[Assistant] With interlocking field of fire on your avenue of approach and you decide you're not going to quit, guess what? Everyone's going to die.


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[Assistant] So, I go through that and I go, I go through how we measure that.


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[Assistant] When is the appropriate time? Why it's the appropriate thing to do? So, I even talk about some of the classic examples, right? Uh, Dunkirk. Yeah, Dunkirk. Guess what? That was quitting.


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[Assistant] General George Washington led the retreat of continental forces out of New York, an escape that was crucial for the ability of the revolutionary army to continue to fight later engagements. And win, by the way. So what are we talking about? Yeah, we're talking about tactical. And I explain this in the book.


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[Assistant] Strategic, like we're not gonna quit on our strategic goals. But a tactical situation, we might quit on.


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[Assistant] Don't anchor as similar, I guess, than to don't dig in. Don't dig in. That's right. Cause you're gonna give up your ability to maneuver.


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[Assistant] Is that because once you, once you decide you're gonna fight, you just don't have, the aircraft doesn't have the capability to just get out of there?


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[Assistant] You have no options. And this conversation based around one on one fighting, and this was a revelation to me last time, that the conversation around one on one fighting is not very realistic because we're not, I'm not gonna be alone.


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[Assistant] Is the strategy of air combat, hey, we're gonna send more planes than you?


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[Assistant] That are detached from the situation that are monitoring. So am I, as the air mission commander or whatever the name is, am I some guy that's at


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[Assistant] Whatever, 30,000 feet or 10 nautical miles away and I can see this entire thing on radar and I can be like Dave, uh, hey everyone, Dave's in a fight, uh, you know, dash, you know, tack two and tack four, go take, go, go support him.


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[Assistant] You and I both have seen rumors just decimate companies. Quickly. Maybe decimate is a strong word. That is too strong a word. Both.


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[Assistant] We have seen rumors get out of control and start to hurt companies where


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[Assistant] If rumors are running rampant in your organization, you have, you have created the environment to allow them to grow. The environment that rumors grow in is one of which there's lack of information. If you don't tell people what's going on,


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[Assistant] Yeah, so we're in an entire section of the book called communication because that's what leadership is. Leadership is communicating with other human beings. So, yeah, man, I think that that


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[Assistant] Idea which I kind of start this chapter off with or this section off with with explaining what it's like in a patrol and how the word gets passed back.


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[Assistant] And if you're in the back of the patrol, you just have no idea what's happening. And that's another thing that just left such a mark on me. I could have put that, I could have put that as one of the fundamental kind of


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[Assistant] Underlying characteristics in the beginning of this book, which is understanding how important communication was in an organization and knowing what it's like to be a frontline trooper and have no idea what's happening.


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[Assistant] But because it's so directly tied to communication, I led the communication section with that. But man, the idea of


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[Assistant] Keeping the troops informed is...


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[Assistant] Is right up there with the underlying leadership principles that I learned as a young SEAL. So, getting back to the rumor thing, get the word out ahead of rumors. Just like on patrol, and again that's referencing the story, you need to keep the troops informed. Need to lay some people off? Explain why.


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[Assistant] Have to discontinue a product? Tell the troops why. Shutting down an office? Communicate the reason to your people. All of these are tough subjects to cover. It's easy to find excuses not to talk about them.


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[Assistant] And it is certainly more comfortable to keep your mouth shut and hope no one notices. But they absolutely will notice. And they will fill in the reasons with their own ideas. Need to lay some people off? The rumor will be,


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[Assistant] Telling the truth. Explain the people thing that's happening.


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[Assistant] Another good point, this is an earlier chapter, and you mentioned it, but we didn't cover it. I have a section on telling the truth. And that seems like it's really easy, but there are tricky situations, it's hard to do, but


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[Assistant] One of the things that I cover in that section is, sometimes you can't tell the truth, and then you might get someone like Sam Harris.


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[Assistant] That says, no, Jocko, you should always tell the truth. So, Sam?


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[Assistant] I'm sorry, you're wrong. And I can give you some situations. There's two situations that are really obvious.


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[Assistant] You can't tell the truth in a situation. Well, let me rephrase that. You ca- Well, you'll see what I mean. If there's a legal battle going on,


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[Assistant] There are times that we work with companies like this, they have a legal scenario unfolding and they cannot discuss it. Which means they can't tell people what's going on.


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[Assistant] And in the military, it was, oh we had compartmentalized information that we literally cannot share. It is against the law. You are not need to know and I cannot tell you. So therefore, does that impede us from telling the truth? The answer, now we're back supporting Sam Harris. Sam, yes we can tell the truth. The truth is, hey Dave, listen.


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[Assistant] I really want to explain to you what's going on here, but you know that there's a legal, uh, a legal suit going on and


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[Assistant] We cannot discuss this, and I cannot tell you. I can tell you these things around it, but I cannot tell you the actual piece of information you want. As soon as we are allowed to tell you legally, believe me, I'll fill you in. Or in the military, hey look, Dave,


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[Assistant] I understand that you want to know where this piece of information is coming from. It is actually need to know and compartmentalized and I cannot, I cannot tell you. As soon as this thing becomes declassified or as soon as you get the need to know, believe me, I'll fill you in. But until then, you know the deal, man. We gotta follow the rules.


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[Assistant] And, and believe, and also, what, the information that you want to know, it's not significant enough that it's going to matter. It's like, okay, so.


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[Assistant] We do want to tell the truth. So, Sam, you're back in the game.


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[Assistant] Uh, having a good relationship with people is just, it's so important.


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[Assistant] And you're always like, you know, usually conclude through something like, hey, got it, bro. Like, and there's been times where you've said that to me, like, hey, got it, you know, where I've been like, yeah, well, let me get back to you on that, I got it, you know, and that's just the way it is. Why? Because.


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[Assistant] I know you care about me, you know I care about you, I trust you, you trust me. It's like, okay, hey man, got it. You know what, I don't even want you to tell me. You tell me what you need me to do, I got it. No factor. No factor. You know what, since we are talking about...


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[Assistant] Delivering the truth. I'm gonna actually jump into this little section right here, which is called tactfully delivering the truth When delivering criticism it is important to do it


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[Assistant] So a more indirect approach is needed. And again, that's what we just talked about with the other section. Which is, oh look, I'm just gonna tell them what's up.


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[Assistant] How do we do this? How do we tell the truth tactfully? Okay, here. First, care about your people.


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[Assistant] That's number one. Care about your people. If you truly care about them, they will know that and they will accept your criticism.


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[Assistant] More easily. And this is, this is something that I thought about talking with Flynn.


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[Assistant] And when I was the OIC of trade at, I was actually listening to Flynn at the muster and he was talking about these savage debriefs that I would give.


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[Assistant] And I have some recorded. I'll play them for you sometime, bro.


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[Assistant] Not hard guy to read, right? Like, like he's, he's not a guy that's like, uh, uh, hey, I'm not sure what he's thinking. Like, you know, you're looking at Flynn, you're like, okay, I see where he's at. Leif, same thing, right? Leif's like, hey,


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[Assistant] You know, what is that, what is that term? Where's, where's your emotion on your sleeves, right? Leif is no stranger. Leif is not shy about saying, hey, I'm not exactly, uh, good. And he's...


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[Assistant] I mean imagine, you know what Leif's like now, but imagine when Leif was whatever, a platoon commander, right? Not exactly able to contain his emotions or hide his emotions. So, as I'm listening to Flynn up there, talking about how I used to give these savage debriefs,


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[Assistant] And Sorelli, same thing, right? How hard is it to tell when Sorelli's pissed off? It's like so easy, right? So.


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[Assistant] When I'm sitting there listening to some thinking, man, I used to debrief these guys, all those guys, every one of them, I gave them debriefs that were scornful. Right? And I'm thinking to myself, what? How is it that on any of their faces, any of their faces, I never saw that look of like, screw you.


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[Assistant] You know what? Shut up. You don't know what you're talking about. Never. And, and I rea- and it was the same with, like, I, I, I had one guy.


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[Assistant] That had that, that I could read that on. That I put through training. And he's the guy that in podcast number five, I wrote a counseling letter for, which I very seldom did.


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[Assistant] But that's a guy that I could see on his face, like when I was debriefing him, he was pissed.


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[Assistant] But every, now think, I mean I debriefed hundreds of guys. And, and yet they would always be like,


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[Assistant] Roger. You know, like that kinda, like they disappointed me. Like it wasn't, they were disappointed. That's the, that's the feeling I always got from Flynn was like, you know, Roger. Or from Leif, like, Roger. You know, like, that's what I, that's what I always got back. Why is that? It's real easy.


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[Assistant] The reason is cause all those guys knew. And, and the guys that I was putting through training knew.


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[Assistant] So when it comes to delivering truthful feedback, the number one thing is to care about your people. Number one. And then the next thing is take ownership of your problem, of the problem itself.


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[Assistant] Of course, extreme ownership should be the fundamental principle used, utilized by any leader. And there are tactics of employing extreme ownership when trying to critique a subordinate. Utilizing extreme ownership while providing feedback might sound like this. Here's some tactical maneuvers. Instead of saying, you failed to get the project done on time,


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[Assistant] Use. What support or assets could I have given you so that we could have gotten the project done on time?


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[Assistant] Instead of saying, you failed to meet the mission objectives, try using, I don't think I did a good job of explaining the mission objective. Did you fully understand it?


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[Assistant] Instead of saying your lack of professionalism caused this client to go to our competitor, try saying


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[Assistant] I think I allowed things to get too slack around here in terms of our professionalism. I think that's one of the reasons why we lost that client to one of our competitors.


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[Assistant] Now, there's guaranteed to be people listening to this right now that are thinking,


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[Assistant] Yo, that's weak, you should just tell em. How are they ever gonna understand what you're talking about? And it goes back to this.


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[Assistant] When I attack them, they're not listening. That's all there is to it. When I attack them, they're not listening. Now, if you have a great relationship with them, if they know you care about them, if you know that, if they know that you have their best, their best interests, and that's why you're talking to them, yeaah. You can, you can go harder. And also,


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[Assistant] When you get people that you try indirect approaches on and it fails, well then you escalate your directness and over time until you're eventually like, listen, you failed this project and this is not acceptable.


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[Assistant] Don't start there. And by the way, also, this is in the book. It is important to take note that these are not simply techniques you are utilizing so your pesky subordinate falls into line.


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[Assistant] If a leader correctly explains a mission in simple, clear, concise manner, and then ensures it is understood by the team, the team will accomplish the mission. If a leader fails to emphasize the importance of professionalism, then it should come as no surprise that subordinates fail to act professionally. Yes, it's on you, the leader.


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[Assistant] That's that escalate and we wrote about the escalation of counseling in the dichotomy of leadership.


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[Assistant] Same thing with direct versus indirect. Indirect versus direct. We start off indirect, and generally that's gonna work. And by the way, if it doesn't work, you have somewhere to go.


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[Assistant] You have somewhere to escalate to. If you go direct and it doesn't work, that's it. You're out of options. You're out of options.


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[Assistant] Not only, not only is it your only shot, but it is a shot that has less chance of


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[Assistant] And, uh, apparently subtlety is becoming a solid word amongst us right now. Because, really, that the correction that you give


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[Assistant] You give the most subtle correction possible and you escalate from there.


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[Assistant] And if I do it right, if I do it right, I've put you back on course Dave.


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[Assistant] And you didn't even know that I touched your compass. Totally. Like I, I just nudged your steering wheel. You didn't even know it. You like looked over your right and you said, wait, wait. Oh, I'm good. You didn't even know what happened. Yeah. And that.


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[Assistant] Is what we want. And you know what? Sometimes I nudge that and it doesn't course correct. And now I have to nudge it a little bit harder.


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[Assistant] And at some point, yes, I may have to take hold of the steering wheel and be really direct. Yes, it does happen.


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[Assistant] Yeah, somebody asked, uh, what if I had decided that this was important and I needed to counsel Leif on this issue? What if I decided it was the time that I needed to get direct with him? And I was like, oh, I would have walked into his office with a piece of paper that showed what the problem was, and I would have said,


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[Assistant] Bro. And Leif would have gone, bro, I'm sorry, I got this, don't ever worry about it again. And that's the way it would have gone down.


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[Assistant] That is the way that things are supposed to work, really.


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[Assistant] The escalation of counseling starts with zero words, starts with a glance, and a, and a, and a,


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[Assistant] You know? That's it! That's it. The response is a shake of the head signifying no, or a nod of the head signifying I got it.


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[Assistant] I had, I had to throw this one in man, ultimatums. Ultimatums are not optimal leadership tools. Like digging in, they allow no room to maneuver. No one likes being trapped and controlled.


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[Assistant] But there are extremely rare times when ultimatums can and should be utilized.


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[Assistant] When enough is truly enough, then an ultimatum can be used, and when it is used, the leader must hold the line and adhere to it. Never make an ultimatum. You can't keep. And I've got a few sections in here making an ultimatum as the boss.


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[Assistant] And the reason I had to talk about this, oh, here we go. If you feel...


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[Assistant] You have to issue an ultimatum to your subordinates. One of the first things you should ask yourself is, where did my leadership fail?


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[Assistant] Because the fact of the matter is, as a leader, you should be able to get what you need out of your subordinates through solid leadership, not ultimatums. Explaining why a task is important to the strategic mission and how achieving that mission will ultimately benefit everyone on the team should be enough to get people to do what they need to do.


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[Assistant] That is no easy feat and sometimes it takes considerable time and effort to communicate that information properly.


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[Assistant] But sometimes, no matter how hard you try, you can't get the message through. In those cases, ultimatums are a tool of last resort. After all,


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[Assistant] Other efforts to get an individual to do what they are supposed to do have failed.


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[Assistant] I mean, you should use an ultimatum so rarely. Once an ultimatum has been delivered, it can't be reversed, which is one of the biggest problems in giving them.


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[Assistant] Ultimatums by their very nature are immo- immovable objects and can't be adjusted. That makes- this makes the people you delivered them to feel trapped.


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[Assistant] And no one likes feeling trapped. If you do make an ultimatum and don't keep it, your credibility is going to take a hit.


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[Assistant] All that being said, if you have done everything in your power, if you've coach mentored and persuaded an individual to do something and they still will not do it, then it might make sense to give them an ultimatum. Make it explicit, not only in the requirements of what needs to be done, but also in the consequences of exactly what will happen if the ultimatum is not met.


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[Assistant] Very rare. I got a section on making ultimatums as a subordinate.


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[Assistant] Which we see, which obviously, you know, and I, is there a time? Yea, there's a time. But when it's, you know,


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[Assistant] Very rare. You better have your ducks in a row. Big time.


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[Assistant] And I talk about dealing with an ultimatum that gets placed on you. Which this is... This happens, right? This happens.


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[Assistant] So what should you do when your boss puts an ultimatum on you? Tell the truth. You should start with telling yourself the truth.


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[Assistant] If what you are being tasked with is actually possible, are you making every possible effort to achieve the task? Is there anything else you and your team can do to get the job done? If the answer to these questions indicates that you can do more, then redouble your efforts and do more. There you go. You should also tell your team members the truth.


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[Assistant] Let them know the ultimatum has been placed on you and thereby the team and explain why you are going to all dig in and do your absolute best to get the job done.


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[Assistant] Hopefully after pulling out all the stops and getting after it like you have never gotten after it before, you and the team are able to deliver on the ultimatum. You get a high five from your boss, tell your team well done, and move on to the next project. Unfortunately, that doesn't always happen. Often the reason ultimatums are given is because the task or project was an extremely difficult one, perhaps even impossible.


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[Assistant] Even after you and your team go into hyperproductive mode and put forth maximal effort to get the job done, sometimes it just isn't enough. What should you do then?


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[Assistant] Again, the answer is to tell the truth. Only this time to your boss.


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[Assistant] First figure out if there are any other measures that might help you accomplish what you have been tasked, asked to do. Perhaps you need more people. Maybe you need more funding. Perhaps you need to let some other tasks slide while you focus on getting the ultimatum fulfilled. Once you have all the information you need to explain the situation to your boss, explain that despite the ultimatum.


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[Assistant] You will not be able to accomplish what he or she has asked you to do.


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[Assistant] That's if you, if it literally can't be done. Describe what you would need to get the job done and what will happen if you do not get what you need.


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[Assistant] If you have done a good job communicating with your boss and they have enough humility to listen, after you detail the situation, they should recognize the truth and withdraw or at least modify their ultimatum.


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[Assistant] But that is no guarantee. Bosses who resort to delivering ultimatums might not be rational enough to listen to reason and could hold the line on it. If that happens and your leader maintains the course,


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[Assistant] Then simply knuckle down, do your best, protect your team to the best of your ability and stand by to suffer the consequences with your head held high. Don't be spiteful, don't have a bad attitude, don't disparage the leader and don't give up.


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[Assistant] Maintaining your dignity and the morale of the troops is the victory in a case like this.


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[Assistant] Got a section in here on reflect and diminish. We talked about that on this podcast, but I laid out in some good detail. Here's something that you talked about earlier. I'll hit it again. Getting people to listen.


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[Assistant] As you are rising through the ranks, you will need to have your say. When you speak, you will want people to listen, but sometimes there will be people who do not listen.


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[Assistant] And they interrupt or talk over you. How should you handle that? The answer is fairly simple. Let them talk.


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[Assistant] Let that person jump in and say what they want. And let them finish their thoughts. This works for a multitude of reasons. If someone wants to talk a lot, then listen. There's no better cure for a person that wants to talk than letting them get their thoughts out of their head.


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[Assistant] Let them say what they want to say. When they have nothing left, you will be able to make your point. This is also good because as they unload all their ideas, you now know not only everything you know, you also know everything they know.


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[Assistant] This works just as well or even better in a group where you listen to multiple people break down their own ideas, argue with one another and ask questions of one another about the details of their ideas. Once again, this whole time, you get to more clearly understand the thoughts of others while quietly strengthening your own thoughts or ideas around the subject. When you finally do find the opportunity to speak,


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[Assistant] You have the most comprehensive and developed thoughts.


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[Assistant] And I, the numbers I gave was, hey, as a leader, you should be listening 98% of the time and talking 2% of the time. That's the way it is.


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[Assistant] This is just one of the, one more thing that's counterintuitive because someone might think


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[Assistant] The less you talk, the more people listen. The less you talk, the more people listen.


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[Assistant] Totally counterintuitive and 100% undeniable. Now, what's interesting too is, when you're coming to these conclusions in your head, which


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[Assistant] As you're watching or as you're listening to some people talk or discuss or debate or argue, right? That whole time you're thinking, okay, and at some point,


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[Assistant] You can chime in, right? And what's interesting is you don't even have to chime in with an answer.


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[Assistant] So when, as this picture gets filled in by what everyone's saying, at the end,


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[Assistant] And now, guess who gets to ask this profound question? That if we as a team can answer this question, we will actually have the solution. That's all clear to him, it's all clear to us.


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[Assistant] So, yeah, it's the ability to detach to step back to listen instead of talk.


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[Assistant] I got a little section about apologizing. I got a section about how you gotta be careful with your words as a leader. You must be careful not to gossip. Not to become too familiar, casual, or unguarded with your troops. Gossip, sarcasm, and flippant remarks all carry too much weight when thrown around by the leader.


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[Assistant] Ribbing comments that might seem harmless among friends can have a real impact on a subordinate. Even legitimate criticism needs to be delivered with caution, preferably in private, so that dignity is maintained.


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[Assistant] This is not to say that critical mistakes should not be reviewed so the whole team can learn, but criticism must be constructive.


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[Assistant] And aimed at, not at an individual's potential, but at the specific mistakes themselves. This is, I'll do this.


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[Assistant] I'll, uh, cause, you know, I'll be sitting around joking around with everyone, and we'll be having a good time, and I'll throw a zinger at someone, and I'll be like, mmm, yeaah, that was uncool. You know? And sometimes I won't even, I won't even realize it, and I'll have to think about it. And I'll say, oh yeaah. What conversation did you and I have about being an asshole?


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[Assistant] One end is, when you're in a leadership position, you don't realize the weight of your compliments.


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[Assistant] And you don't realize the weight of your criticisms. So, you might not think saying,


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[Assistant] Hey Echo, that video looked great, you know? Or whatever. You might, you might think, I'm not gonna tell Echo cause I don't care. Hey, the video was, the video was good to go, but he knows that. No. It's like, like, it actually carries weight. And, and I will forget that all day long. I'll be, and basically, it's uh,


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[Assistant] It's a lack of awareness of, like, hey,


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[Assistant] I'm actually, like, in an elevated position in this team. Whatever.


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[Assistant] I'll make that mistake. You know, I would make this mistake at trade out, you know, when I was, or in tasking a bruiser. But.


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[Assistant] I realized, hey, you need to be careful with your words. You need to be careful. You need to understand the weight of the impact of the things that you're saying, both positive and negative, because they carry weight that you may or may not understand from that leadership position.


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[Assistant] Conclusion, it's all on you, but not about you.


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[Assistant] And I'm trying to sum this up, but I'm gonna skip a little bit of it here.


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[Assistant] Leadership is about the team. The team is more important than you are.


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[Assistant] The moment you put your own interests above the team and above the mission is the moment you fail as a leader.


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[Assistant] The leadership strategies and tactics in this book are to be used not so you can be successful. These strategies and tactics are to be used so the team can be successful.


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[Assistant] If you use them to further your own career or your own agenda, eventually these strategies and tactics will backfire and bring you down. You will fail as a leader and as a person.


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[Assistant] If you use these strategies and tactics with the goal of helping others and of helping the team accomplish its mission, then the team will succeed. And if the team succeeds, you win as a leader and as a person. But infinitely more important, your people win. And that is true leadership.


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[Assistant] Probably a decent enough place where we, we tried to get through it. What are we? We're only at two hours. That's not too bad. That's not too bad right there. Uhm.


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[Assistant] Yeah, so obviously we skipped all kinds of stuff in this book. I like Dave, thanks for pointing out the fact that


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[Assistant] Are important. Obviously the sections we covered, there's sections of it, but even just the sections that we did cover but that I didn't read everything, there's a lot in it.


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[Assistant] It's PREGNANT with information and that's a term that would get used to describe Shakespeare when I was in college. That these words


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[Assistant] But what Dave said is true, uhm, lots of the information in there is...


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[Assistant] It's, there's, there's a lot in the words, in the chapters, in the details, in the stories that will add to your comprehension as a leader.


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[Assistant] Working the book is short chapters. It's heavily indexed so you can just look up. Hey, what do I do here? What do I do there? I'm sure people will put tabs all through it like they do with dichotomy leadership like they do with extreme ownership That they'll be able to well here it is. Yep. I'm making this mistake. Oh, here's yeah. Here's how I should handle the situation. So Yeah, I'm sure


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[Assistant] Yeah, I just, I hope it, I hope it's able to give people information, give them strategy and tactics they can actually implement, that they can use, and we covered a bunch of it, not all of it, but I wish I had this book. I just wish I had this book.


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[Assistant] 30 years ago when I joined the Navy, I wish I had this book because it would have made everything so much easier. It would have made me so much better and so much more effective. But, oh well, you know the,


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[Assistant] Best time to plant a tree was 30 years ago. The second best time is right now. So there you go. Leadership strategy and tactics. So probably a good place to wrap it up. Echo. Yes. Charles. Yes. So any final thoughts on the leadership strategy and tactics?


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[Assistant] The, we tried to make, I tried to make the book a little bit smaller so it is more portable. Yeah. So there you go. And by the way, one thing that you need to get credit for is on the cover. So, we'll say that we designed the cover. Yep.


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[Assistant] The FMTAC02 was 100% from Echo Charles. And when I saw that, I was like, okay, that is legit. That is totally legit. And people that are wondering about the cover of the book, it's got some military...


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[Assistant] And what that is is cover and move. So you got one element that's putting down support fire, the other element that's attacking. And then the symbol is enemy headquarters and the X through it means destroy. So there is some.


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[Assistant] Uh, hopefully, and we do know that you do have a fineness, a fondness for cargo pants. So there's a possib- Oh, cargo shorts, sorry.


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[Assistant] There's a possibility that the cargo shorts or pants could have a cargo pocket that is big enough possibly to enable you to carry this with you at all times. Just kidding, it's not that small. Oh, good point, good point. Awesome. Alright, Dave, any closing thoughts?


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[Assistant] People get wrong. We all get wrong. It's a mistake that we all make because we think leading is about us. We think leading is about us. And it isn't. It isn't about us at all. It is about


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[Assistant] And if you take care of your people, yes, then those people


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[Assistant] We'll take care of you. And that's what this book is about. Is how do you actually take care of your people?


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[Assistant] The other person actually has to hear you. How do you get them to hear you? How do you become 100% of the solution? How do you learn to communicate in a way that people actually listen and hear you and understand you? And then how do you give them that underlying, the underlying


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[Assistant] The underlying thread of what you're doing as a leader, you need to know that they understand.


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[Assistant] I'm going on tour. Yes. Hell yea. Yes, like a rock band. Now, there will be no music.


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[Assistant] And there will be no Jägermeister. Okay, alright. And there will be no tour bus. Okay. But I will be speaking about a myriad of subjects. I'll be talking about leadership. I'll be talking about war. I'll be talking about discipline. I'll be talking about fear. I'll be talking about life. I'll be talking about death.


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[Assistant] I'll be answering questions. I'll be meeting with you. So if you want to experience that with me, then come to the live gigs on the road.


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[Assistant] January 27th, Seattle. January 28th, San Francisco. Some of the gigs are sold out.


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[Assistant] Go to JockoLive.com to see if you can get tickets for one of the gigs. Look forward to seeing you there.


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[Assistant] So that we can get after it. And get after it is something that, uh, let's face it.


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[Assistant] In my little scenario here. Get after it gets used quite a bit.


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[Assistant] And I was searching for the words to explain to people like what I'm going to do at the live shows. What I'm gonna do.


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[Assistant] And if you know me, you know what that means. And it means a lot of different things, but I'm gonna get after it at those live shows. So, hope to see you there.


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[Assistant] And beyond that, I know we talked about leadership a lot today. We talked about taking care of our people. We talked about taking ownership.


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[Assistant] How do we take care of ourselves, Echo Charles, which in turn will help us to take care? How do we take ownership of our own lives and get ourselves on the right path?


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[Assistant] We'd have to have a whole like spinoff conversation about that. It is a whole lot of things wrapped around that question.


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[Assistant] You know what, I will say today, I was doing a routine. So that means there is some, and I have a bunch of, you know, routines that I do or.


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[Assistant] Whatever. Disciplinical Freedom Field Manual. There and there. I was doing. I've been, and I'll get focused on one for a while. And kind of like, you know, uh, trying to improve that area.


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[Assistant] And today, I had a pull up day, right? And so it was weight vest pull ups, I was doing L-sit pull ups, tuck pull ups, dead hang pull ups, chin ups, and then kipping pull ups, right? And I was doing a lot of them.


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[Assistant] See, discipline begets discipline, right? You got fired up, you got disciplined, and you impose more discipline.


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[Assistant] Anyway, so if based on your strong recommendation to do jiu-jitsu, we start jiu-jitsu, we're gonna need a gi. That's true. Origin gi, by the way. Get an origin gi.


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[Assistant] Not just because they're made in America, not just because they grow our economy, not just because they make freedom stronger in the entire world.


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[Assistant] Those are all good reasons. On top of that, you might as well get the best possible gi that was designed for jiu jitsu by jiu jitsu players.


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[Assistant] Definitely can. I'm going to. I'm going to do a squat workout in the jeans just for, uh, just because.


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[Assistant] The powder, not only is it Jocko Palmer, look it tastes good, look it delivers, it delivers what it says it's going to deliver, but do we not all have


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[Assistant] You wanna, you wanna, you wanna uproot the entire restaurant and move it next to your house so you can get that Arnold Palmer whenever that, whenever you want it. That's what, that's what this is. It is that good.


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[Assistant] That's definitely a problem. Because there's, if you think I haven't, I, that is still my go-to. That is still my go-to. When I need a dessert.


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[Assistant] And he's going full strawberry. Yes. Strawberry milk.


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[Assistant] That when you put them on the dessert meter, zero is not dessert, ten is dessert.


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[Assistant] But the strawberry is dessert. Straight up. Yeah. Agreed. That, that is true. For sure. I mean, and I drink the nine all day long. Cause even, I mean, I'll drink the nine. And the peanut butter's the same thing.


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[Assistant] I thought that you were going to say that we may have meaning you. Of you. Okay. Yea, it's true. Good maneuver. I think you painted yourself in a corner, you found a way out.


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[Assistant] Don't forget about this podcast and the fact that you should subscribe to it if you haven't already. Which is entirely up to you.


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[Assistant] We recommend that you do, uh, subscribe to this podcast and also don't forget that we have the grounded podcast which is about


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[Assistant] Life. Yes. And a lot of jujitsu. Yes. Which is the same thing in many ways. Yeah, correct. And the Warrior Kid Podcast. Have you listened to the new ones yet, Dave? No. With the children? Nope. I think you're gonna like them. That will happen soon. I think you're gonna like them. I think the kids are gonna like them. There's some lessons. I get done recording those.


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[Assistant] And I don't know, I don't know what else in my life gives me the feeling of getting done recording a Warrior Kid podcast where I felt like I've done something really good.


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[Assistant] And the soap is going to be called Killer Soap.


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[Assistant] We're four years deep right now. Yes sir. We were talking about videos the other day and you were talking about some of the victory MMA videos early.


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[Assistant] And you were saying, hey, these are kind of, you know, now. At the time, they were kind of awesome.


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[Assistant] Are you feeling, how are you feeling about the early Jocko Podcast videos? Have we, have they become dated yet? Or are they type?


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[Assistant] We also have psychological warfare, uh, me talking to you directly into your ears when you are about to make a mistake. And you know what that mistake is, it looks like a donut. I'm not gonna let you do it. It looks like skipping workout, not gonna let you do it. Looks like sleeping in in the morning. Not gonna do it.


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[Assistant] So, check out Psychological Warfare on iTunes, Google Play, whatever, MP3 platforms, and if you need a visual,


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[Assistant] If you need the visual reminder of the path, and you need it big on canvas, cool. Go to flipsidecanvas.com, which is my brother, Dakota Meyer, Jocko Podcast 115 by the way, who


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[Assistant] Makes graphic representations of the path. So you can hang them on your wall and you'll wake up to them every day.


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[Assistant] And then we got some books. Obviously we spent the last two podcasts reviewing leadership strategy and tactics. I think we've got that one out there.


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[Assistant] Probably enough time for you to pre-order right now and get a, uh, first a dish or


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[Assistant] You can also not do that and live the rest of your life in shame with a second dish. Choice is yours.


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[Assistant] Very important, as Echo Charles says. Lots of Echo Charles quotes over here coming from me. The audio version of that is on iTunes, Amazon Music, Google Play, and also Extreme Ownership and The Dichotomy of Leadership, the two books that I wrote with my brother Leif Babin about leadership.


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[Assistant] In your business and in your life. And Echelon Front, which is our leadership consultancy, and what we do is solve problems through leadership. Whatever problems you are having in your organization, they are leadership problems. They are absolutely leadership problems, 100%.


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[Assistant] And I know that might sound crazy for you to hear right now. For me to say that 100% of the problems that you are having in your organization are leadership problems. It is accurate. That's what the problems are. That's where they come from.


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[Assistant] And we will get them fixed. Go to echelonfront.com for details on that. EF Online. Dave, what do you got?


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[Assistant] Live event that is the entire Echelon front team. It's called The Muster. We are doing three gigs in 2020. We're doing...


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[Assistant] One in Florida, Orlando. We're doing one in Dallas, Texas and we are doing one in Phoenix, Arizona. Go to ExtremeOwnership.com for details. All of our musters have sold out in the past. These will sell out too. Don't hesitate.


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[Assistant] And then we have EF Overwatch and EF Legion. This is our talent acquisition firm where we are taking leaders from the military, from both special operations, combat aviation, and all forces. And we are placing them into civilian businesses. So,


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[Assistant] If you're a business, you can go in there and look for people to hire. If you're a vet, I'm telling you go to EFlegion.com and


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[Assistant] Enter yourself, enter your information so that you can see what jobs are out there. You can get information on how to get hired. We can, you can look at jobs that are posted and you can start your next mission of getting after it. That's efoverwatch and eflegion.com. And if you haven't heard enough from us yet, which would be surprising,


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[Assistant] Well, we are available on the interwebs, on Twitter, on Instagram, and on, on that Facebook


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[Assistant] Dave is at David R. Burke, B-E-R-K-E, Echo is at Echo Charles, and I am at Jocko Willinkan to all the military folks out there. Thanks to you all for protecting our way of life.


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[Assistant] We cherish the gift that you give to us and we thank you for and to our police and law enforcement and firefighters and paramedics and EMTs and dispatchers and correctional officers and border patrol and secret service and all first responders. You also protect our way of life here at home. So thanks to you all as well. And to everyone else out there, just remember that leadership,


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[Assistant] It's about taking care of your people so they will take care of you.


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[Assistant] Elevate your team by utilizing the right leadership strategies and by utilizing the right tactics.


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[Assistant] And by going out there every day and getting after it.


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[Assistant] Where were you born? Where were you raised? Born in Dayton, Ohio.


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[Assistant] As you might expect marriage didn't last super long. Grandparents weren't super happy about this, but you know, they, they ended up taking very vested interest in me.


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[Assistant] But my mom was, was actually, she was the real athlete in the family. She won junior college nationals in tennis after having me at Sinclair Community College. Right there. And then got a full ride to go play for the Gators down in Gainesville. So we moved to Florida and then just bounced around.


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[Assistant] She's very much a trooper. Very much. And so, you know, I mean, some of my earliest memories are going to her tennis practices and her tennis matches and my grandparents flying down to take care of me while she was...


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[Assistant] Yeah, sort of an athlete. Just across the board? Just across the board. And then she ended up being really good at tennis. She was number one in Ohio her whole youth. And so it just extended from there. When you're really good at something, you end up doing it.


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[Assistant] Yes. So she ended up graduating early and then almost went into.


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[Assistant] Hiding sort of at my dad's house with my dad's parents who were, you know, a little more.


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[Assistant] I mean, it's, that's tough. And the older I get, the more respect I have for how tough kids are and especially, you know, especially a single mom with, with a young kid and still trying to live your life and go to college and then get a job and do those kinds of things.


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[Assistant] I was two or three and I remember the tennis coach at Florida, he used to always pull my ear. His name was Andy Brandy and he would pull my ear before the matches and you say, are you going to behave today? Right? And so it was, it inspired behavior that was good for me.


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[Assistant] University of Florida, Go Gators. And so instead, you know, she ended up getting remarried and did become a teaching tennis professional and did that for about 20 years. So yeah, we, we moved, we moved to Texas and Tennessee and back to Texas and then settled in, in Jax Beach, Florida. How old were you?


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[Assistant] We moved there in 1992. How old were you? So I was 8th grade. That was my first year in school there. Sort of how I associate, I remember the grades where I was and which city.


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[Assistant] Tennis is where I get into basketball, and tennis eventually won out. But, how?


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[Assistant] I got caught from the eighth grade basketball team. So it's weird cause I was the new kid and I moved and I was, I did really well in basketball when I moved from Texas and I just, I moved to Florida and it just didn't click for tryouts and didn't know anybody. And they're like, sorry. And it was kind of a.


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[Assistant] Crushing blow and this is not one of those things where, you know, the Michael Jordan story takes place and I, and I doubled down on my training and practice and became a great basketball player. I play pick up ball, pick up stuff, but I, yeah, I quit. Quitting is forever and I quit.


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[Assistant] Uh, but I still played tennis and that was, you know, easier to make the team and stuff. So I did that and did that through college.


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[Assistant] Makes you very sensitive to what you think are your needs too, right? Cause you're alone and you're an individual and you're out there and you take everything so seriously.


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[Assistant] And one of the things that the military culture would bring out is that


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[Assistant] Yeah, the point, but not the game, not the set, not the match. I mean, you can come back from huge deficits in tennis.


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[Assistant] And it's really, like everything else, it's mental.


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[Assistant] I was just, I mean, so I love the team element of tennis. I kind of stopped enjoying the individual


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[Assistant] Part of it, it just, it's a lot of travel, it's a lot of, you know.


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[Assistant] It's just the, the process of playing tennis in my youth was, I really enjoyed the team part of it. And so that continued through college and I really enjoyed it and with, with my team and.


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[Assistant] In college, I just, I wasn't good enough. It just wasn't gonna happen. Now I did consider, hey, maybe I'll go down to South America and like try to play some tournaments or something after college, but I tore my rotator cuff my senior year and couldn't, you know.


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[Assistant] Yeah, I mean, you get into really, really thin air, you know, and, and just like...


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[Assistant] In buds or in the training that I went through, there's, there's physical capabilities that will limit certain people, but there's also mental stuff that will limit certain people and mine were.


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[Assistant] Mostly physical. I just wasn't fast enough on the court. I wasn't. I mean, you get in a really thin air where


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[Assistant] I mean, these guys that are great at tennis and girls that are great at tennis, I mean, they were kind of always really great. You know? But I think that it's important to


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[Assistant] And so for me, it was really just a vessel. I mean, I don't want to confuse myself even with my mother. My mother was a great athlete and when it came to tennis.


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[Assistant] And you know, I just, I didn't get the same degree. My, my grandfather was in, played basketball growing up, but you know, he was, he was drafted to go play for the, for the Lakers, but couldn't afford the bus ticket from Colorado to


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[Assistant] Yeah, so I was thinking, I didn't really know, but I thought I would do something in business or consulting or these, you know, these, it's a really tough.


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[Assistant] You look at them from an older vantage point and you say you kind of had to go through that and it doesn't make it any easier when you're going through it though. And so I just, I really didn't know. I wanted to do something.


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[Assistant] Special I wanted to do something more and I just had no idea what that would would mean and so


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[Assistant] You know, you just sort of say, oh, maybe I'll go work at Goldman Sachs. That's a great place to work. Or I'll go work at McKinsey and be a problem solver or something to that effect. And I just didn't, I didn't know.


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[Assistant] I didn't know. And so graduated 2001, May, and still didn't know.


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[Assistant] But you know, a few months after that it was going to be a very different world.


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[Assistant] I did. I went and traveled a little bit around Central America for like a month or two and that type of stuff gets...


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[Assistant] It gets kind of old. You don't really find yourself when you go far away. It just sort of amplifies what you're already thinking. And I needed to do something. I needed a mission. I needed a purpose and I needed a community.


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[Assistant] So my, my grandfather was an artillery officer in Korea, never talked about it.


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[Assistant] He was a class of 77, uh, Annapolis grad, but never really saw him. So it wasn't part of my, the decision making process of my life. Like this is what I can go do. It was just, it was a bridge too far. I didn't understand.


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[Assistant] What the military did, frankly, I mean, yeah, defend America, but how, what, what does that mean for a life? Right? I mean, when I grew up, it was peacetime. I mean, it was, I mean, aside from.


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[Assistant] Right? So, I mean, this is not a time when the military is front and center as it is now. And in fact, if,


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[Assistant] Anything, what was the military's purpose at that time? It didn't have a ton of.


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[Assistant] What war is being fought? Basically what I'm saying is I didn't get it. It was naive, but I didn't get it.


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[Assistant] Look, there was no John F. Kennedy at the time, you know, ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country. That wasn't part of the discussion.


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[Assistant] In our country, and I think that's a problem, and that should always be a part of the discussion.


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[Assistant] So, it took 911 to really bring that to the forefront.


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[Assistant] I went with a buddy, we just sort of backpacked, quote, quote, around.


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[Assistant] You know, all who, all who wander are not lost. Yeah, that's true. But some that wander are lost, right? And you know, part of it is you want to have an adventure. You don't know exactly how to do it, but you got to do something. You can't just sit around and do nothing. So.


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[Assistant] I did. I needed a mission. I needed something. So you actually figured that out.


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[Assistant] It was, it was awesome, but so boring. I just, I needed to be part of something bigger than myself.


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[Assistant] You can't backpack around the world for the rest of your life. You just can't do it.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It's, it's easy to sort of glamorize and, you know, but it's, it gets old. Yeah. Too much freedom.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You know, today's gone, tomorrow's gone, I don't have time for anything. You have a lot of time. It's just how you prioritize it.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So I was working at a call center in Daytona Beach and was doing kind of research around car dealerships and who we could call and target for stuff. You're sensing my enthusiasm, but at the same time I was grateful to have a job.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I can barely remember. It's trying to get more dealers onto this marketing campaign that the company was running. Check.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So if you remember, JFK Jr. had died in a Cessna, Cessna plane, I think it was a Cessna, that he, you know, he was piloting and it went down.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Something like that, right? And, and so, you know, that was kind of the initial reaction. And I think there was just general confusion. I mean, I woke up, I was getting ready to go to work with my, you know, button down and my khakis and stuff, right? Eating my cereal and I had the news on.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And so I remember watching stuff go down and it just, there was just general confusion. And so I was confused as well. Like, oh, this is an accident.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And then, you just sort of watch it escalate, and it was obviously very clear that it wasn't an accident at all.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I just got goosebumps thinking about how much rage I felt at that moment in time.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The initial reaction was, I gotta, this is, this is my mission. I gotta figure out how to serve America. Something greater than myself.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The, the more practical side was joining the military in a time of war was scary. There was fear, human fear that was running through my veins about this is, that's a real decision.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And the other part of it was, you know, the first death was Mike Spann.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So, Mike Spann was in work for the CIA, and you know, before that was a Marine.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] They sort of glossed over that in the telling of it, you know, he was a, he was worked for the CIA and he was in Afghanistan, one of the first in. And so I took a lot of inspiration from that and sent my packet in to the, to the CIA and a couple other of the alphabet soup agencies that were generally speaking in the DC area.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And that's a really long process. So you went through that entire process.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Met some good people along the way, met some of the hiring folks at the agency. And I kept asking about, I didn't know anything. Okay. I heard about, you know, SOG and like the it's called ground branch, right? That's the paramilitary.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Branch of, of the CIA. That's where I wanted to be. And so,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I'm like, Hey, so how do I get to do that kind of stuff? Like the mission that Mike span got, how do I do that? And there was this guy and we were in, you know, some.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Office space very, as you might expect, sterile looking office space in Northern Virginia and this guy sitting at a desk not, not too dissimilar to how we're sitting right now looked right at me and he's like, look.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] We don't train our guys in the military. We take from the special operations branches and then they come and work for us.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That's when it clicked for me and so now I'm resetting the clock though because I start going through military application processes at that time and that's, you know, 2000, late 2002 and