[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Not the biggest company we work with. We work with companies that have 30,000, 50,000, 150,000 employees globally. So originally we created a online training platform for that. We decided to open it up to everyone. It's got courses you can take. It's got live interactions. Go to ExtremeOwnership.com if you want to check that out. And if you want to help service members.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Active and retired, their families, gold star families. You wanna, you wanna get involved in an awesome charity organization. Check out Mark Lee's Mom, Mama Lee. She's got an awesome organization. Really, truly helps veterans and their families. Go to americasmightywarriors.org if you wanna help out. And also check out Horses.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And also check out heroesandhorses.com. So, Micah Fink, just up there. He's out in the bush right now, by the way.


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[Assistant] Micah, you can use that if you want. You can use my verbiage that I just, just made up. Uh, as far as that going to go, we are, we are both on social media. We're there.


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[Assistant] We're not getting sucked up in the algorithm though. So watch yourself if you go in there. Echoes at Echo Charles. I'm Atchaka Willink. Thanks to Matt Malone for coming here today, sharing his lessons. And thanks to all the workers out there across the land. The tradesmen.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The skilled laborers, the men and women that toil every day to build, to construct, to fabricate, to repair, to manufacture. We know. We know. That that is the strength of America.


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[Assistant] That's what builds America. So thank you to the American worker. Thank you for what you do. And thanks to all the military personnel out there who work their craft.


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[Assistant] So that the workers can work. And also thanks for the work done by our police and law enforcement, firefighters, paramedics, EMTs, dispatchers, correctional officers, border patrol, secret service.


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[Assistant] And all first responders who protect us here at home. And to everyone else out there, there is opportunity. But it's not gonna knock on your door.


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[Assistant] In fact, it's not really even gonna let you know it's around. Like the lights are off. That's what's happening. It's not easy to find. You gotta work for it. You gotta kick in some doors, and there's gonna be struggles along the way, and you'll have ups and downs. But...


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[Assistant] But if you're willing to work hard and you don't give up, you can find that opportunity and you can turn that opportunity into a reality. So go out there and get after it. And until next time, this is Echo and Jaco.


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[Assistant] Thank you sir, that's, uh, about as good as it gets from...


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[Assistant] An American hero is yourself. A sailor. Seal. Been through it. Understands what battle's all about.


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[Assistant] When you have nothing to fight back with but only your will and your, uh, guts to stay alive is, uh, inspirational for all the crew. It was, uh, all hands on deck. Regrettably, many of our shipmates lost their lives or were so severely wounded.


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[Assistant] They had to be evacuated the next day and we didn't get any help from our government.


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[Assistant] During the attack, after the attack, 18 hours later, we say, uh, a cruiser, a destroyer, Maddox, not the Maddox, but the, uh. Massey. Yeah, Massey. Come alongside in the USS Davis, and that was it.


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[Assistant] Those guys come aboard our ship on whale boats and, uh, they were actually crying to see the devastation of what they did to us.


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[Assistant] Chako, there was over 850 cannon rocket holes in our ship.


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[Assistant] Over 5,000 armor piercing bullets in our ship. They dropped napalm on the bridge of the ship, trying to burn us to pieces.


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[Assistant] They shot our life rafts off, uh, out. We only had three left. They, they shot them out of the water to ensure no more survivors.


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[Assistant] They sent troop carrying helicopters to finish us off.


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[Assistant] And for some reason they didn't do it. I guess they got the word that, hey, the gig's up.


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[Assistant] Uh, and so we'll just call it a mistaken identity and that's what everybody says. It was mistaken. Oh, we're so sorry. We say no to that.


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[Assistant] And, uh, it was a deliberate, premeditated attack, premeditated attack by the people of, uh, the Johnson administration and


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[Assistant] The Esko, I believe his name was the ambassador, I mean the premier or president of, uh, Israel at that time.


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[Assistant] A small cabal of people did so much damage not only to us and our dead shipmates, but to America. This is just not our problem, it's America's problem. And Americans like you, this good gentleman over here and your whole staff,


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[Assistant] I'm bringing it to light and God bless you for that and it means the world to me and I know it does my shipmates.


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[Assistant] It's very respectful and very honorable of you sir, thank you.


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[Assistant] Uh, that's a good question. I wasn't good in school. Uh, I dropped out of school in the 7th grade. Went to work for my dad. Where'd you grow up?


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[Assistant] I grew up in Denver, Colorado. Now I live on the western slope of Colorado. I got a 40 acre ranch there. Me and my bride and Lisa sitting over there. Wonderful lady. Love her a lot.


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[Assistant] We've raised our kids, but getting back to the Navy, I went to boot camp and I was the most thrilled person you could ever imagine.


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[Assistant] Because I was 17 years old, I just turned 17 and joined and luckily I passed the test, but...


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[Assistant] My peers took it good, we got along and I'll be darned if I wasn't voted outstanding recruit of my troop.


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[Assistant] That was done by my peers, I'll never forget that. A bunch of good guys and they're as old as I am now, 40. What year was that, what year did you join? 64, 1964. Okay, and what was your job?


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[Assistant] My, my first job was, uh, being a, uh, boilerman and machinist mate. I was on different ships, the USS Mauna Kea, the USS Hollyockla that I went overseas with to Vietnam. We had unloaded ammo to Constellation and other ships.


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[Assistant] What a good ship though. Beautiful ship. Good people. Uh, enjoyable. Uh, good skippers. Uh, I can't say enough about the, about the USS Liberty. And you're right, it was a...


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[Assistant] Ebbermore said it was like a giant lobster out in the sea. Nobody could misidentify that ship. So that's pretty much, uh, my naval career up to the attack. And then I got transferred to USS Maddox. Tov Tonkin. So it's been an interesting ride.


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[Assistant] I did. Yeaah. Really? Yeaah, absolutely. I mean, who was going to attack a flagged American ship? Uh, we thought if anybody was going to get us, it'd be, uh, the Arabs.


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[Assistant] Right, uh, General Porter's is, uh, something we did aboard that ship constantly. Even, uh, I got on, I got aboard Delivery when it was just commissioned and it made one cruise and I stayed on it for the rest until the last one.


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[Assistant] Every captain I served under, and there was only two, uh, McGonagall was, uh, very strict about, uh, damage control, cleanliness, uh, he evaluated everything he did, and, uh, I think that really, really set us up to be


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[Assistant] At least to try to be able to save our ship and save our shipmates, but the training we received, uh,


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[Assistant] With the good graces of God, uh, we were able to, uh,


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[Assistant] No help came. We were out there alone by ourselves. No armament. Our ship was burning up. People all over the deck, uh, on, on, sleeping, trying to get into racks or whatever they could just to stay alive. It was, uh,


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[Assistant] It was, uh, I can't say it was real chaos, it was organized chaos.


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[Assistant] Just do your job. And don't do anything else, but do your job.


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[Assistant] Yes, for that part of the ship. The other damage control was James Smith.


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[Assistant] And he was fighting fires and doing all I could. In fact, that's when Spicer got killed. He was the postal clerk. He was manning a hose. That was his general quarters drills and station.


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[Assistant] To, uh, fight fires, and Smitty had just...


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[Assistant] My alter ego, I respect these guys because they help save everybody's lives, including mine. Without these people I wouldn't be alive today.


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[Assistant] In the world, all of them top secret, were instantly blown to bits and, uh,


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[Assistant] It's just something you can't describe to see your own shipmates like that. And you know they're down there. The ones that got killed on deck, we already put them in body bags. And the ones that were clinging to life.


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[Assistant] Doc Keefer took care of them. I helped in operations. All these other guys did what they could to help people. It was a unified ship and it was two different crews aboard that ship. The Spooks and us.


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[Assistant] So, we were the idiots and these were the smart guys. It was too bad. I mean that with all due respect. Believe me, all due respect. But these guys here took the brunt of the damage and you know what?


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[Assistant] When the torpedo hit, the torpedo gunboats.


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[Assistant] We come up alongside of us and fire at our firefighters, stretcher bearers, anybody on deck, they're that close shooting us, you know what I mean out of us.


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[Assistant] And I thought to myself, my god, how could this, I mean, the guys gotta be able to see. And it just, everybody was astounded by that. The captain told the


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[Assistant] Get the helicopter the hell away from my ship. Get it out of here now. And they did. And, uh, we were all alone. Our country promised us help.


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[Assistant] We expected help, the jet aircraft were called back by Washington, McNamara and LBJ and all his cronies.


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[Assistant] Uh, officer of European forces. Europe. And uh, he was a huge part of the cover-up.


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[Assistant] The Board of Inquirer only went seven days. Seven days it was wrapped up. It was all pre-determined what the outcome was going to be. Mistaken identity. They say they paid six million dollars or ten million or whatever and the crew was compensated. They compensated most of the crew two hundred bucks for their clothes or maybe their


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[Assistant] But it wasn't nothing like they said it was, and it was our money they were giving right back to us. So.


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[Assistant] Israel never put out a dime. The United States paid for it all. And they sold our ship for immediately a couple hundred thousand dollars. They cut up the razor blades to make sure the evidence was gone.


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[Assistant] They didn't count on us for 55 years telling you guys, hey, you're lying to the American public and you're not going to get by with it. That's why we're here now. America's too great. Too great of a country.


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[Assistant] As a service nation, as you well know, you've been there, you know what it's all about, and uh, you didn't get, nobody turned their back on you.


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[Assistant] Because you had backup, your own men, and you know, to the last man, it's not over till it's over. But it was like that way with us, it's not over till it's over, we're still alive, the ship didn't roll over, and uh,


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[Assistant] The next day they got there and like I say, uh, Massey and the Davis, these guys explored the ship just in tears. It was, uh, they hated to see their own shipmates, uh, get torn apart like that with no help. Coming to find out, you know, uh,


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[Assistant] I think the Navy did try to help us, but the government, the higher-ups, wouldn't come to our aid. And, uh, it's pretty sad. This one pilot, he's in this film. By the way, I wanted to give you this, Jaco. I think you've seen this, haven't you?


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[Assistant] Okay, this is Sacrificing Liberty. Uh, go to SacrificingLiberty.com. SacrificingLiberty.com. This is a four part series.


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[Assistant] It's one of the best series that's ever been done and truthful. It's all about many survivors in this film telling the truth and it's my great honor and pleasure to give this to you and I hope you, you watch it and spread the word Jaco. Thank you. Thank you.


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[Assistant] Dropping on us. They weren't, they, they couldn't shoot us up, so they tried to burn us up. And, uh,


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[Assistant] The fire just basically burned out because we couldn't put them out. We didn't have the equipment. CO2 was all gone. Everything was, had been utilized. So it was, we could have gotten water from the engine room. They could have pumped us water.


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[Assistant] The two that went aft, I saw those, I didn't, I don't know where the other ones, they could have been aft or forward. But I do know that one, that one did hit and, uh,


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[Assistant] That's, that's when the ship started lusting badly to the starboard side, and it just went like this. Well, first the ship was picked up, put me out of water.


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[Assistant] No, I couldn't see it. I was below decks, one deck below the main deck.


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[Assistant] Then we knew it was just a matter of time and it hit and I was thinking to myself,


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[Assistant] If, if this ship goes down, I'm going to go down with it because I'm not going to get in the water and try to stay alive and let them guys shoot me in the water. I'd better go down with this ship. And that was my intention, I was going down. But the ship just, just miraculously stopped listing.


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[Assistant] Yeah, it was, it was crazy. It was really crazy. And, uh, when we got down there, uh, we went through the hatch that, uh, he closed.


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[Assistant] To make sure everything was watertight and everything and I grabbed the hatch, it had two different hatches, a big one and then a small scuttle hatch. I opened it up very slowly and I could hear air coming out so I knew it wasn't water.


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[Assistant] Absolutely, it was a very difficult decision, but it was pretty instantaneous as soon as that decision was made. I mean, it was done. But we would periodically go back and check, listen, but it was all over. Those guys didn't have a chance.


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[Assistant] It was, well, lucky enough he got out and many more, but, uh, it was just,


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[Assistant] I mean, uh, to think about 25 of your shipmates down there, and I didn't know how many got killed at that time, down there. But to think that they, they went through that and, uh,


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[Assistant] What we went through above deck, they didn't know what was going on below deck. They didn't have a clue. But, uh,


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[Assistant] They didn't abandon their duty stations and what kind of courage does that take to stay below decks in the CT spaces on the starboard side?


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[Assistant] And, uh, take what they were gonna get. And, uh, they did. Brave, brave, wonderful men. That's why we're here. They're our dead shipmates. They can't speak.


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[Assistant] But we can speak for them, and we've been doing that forever, trying to get the truth out. But our government...


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[Assistant] Once it's sealed, it stays sealed, and so does Israel. Now again, it's not, it's not against the Jews, it's not against...


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[Assistant] Americans, they just got fed lies and we're here to say, hey, we're eyewitnesses. Are you going to believe the Israeli version?


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[Assistant] The Board of Inquirer version, which is a total BS, are you going to believe eyewitnesses like us? Now, I think the American public is smart enough, especially with what's going on in the world now, to see that, uh,


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[Assistant] Yes sir. And nothing to fight back with. But our will and, and, uh, wits and, uh, the pleasure of taking another breath is what kept us all going. And, uh, pretty fortunate to be here, Jaco.


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[Assistant] Two hours, approximately two hours. Some people save more, some people save less.


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[Assistant] But to do that type of damage and, uh, in a few moments, like the Israelis said, it just took a little while, they only said they had only three aircraft that attacked us and there was...


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[Assistant] Probably 20 aircraft, uh, attacked us. To do that kind of damage in that short of time. It's just, uh,


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[Assistant] When you think back, three airplanes can't carry the munitions it would take to put over 850 cannon and rocket holes in the ship, drop napalm on us, it just doesn't make sense.


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[Assistant] Nobody really cared about us. You know, uh, nobody. Including the President. He's the one that got us into this mess. LBJ. Snake LBJ.


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[Assistant] And his minions, but, uh, I, I never thought, I never thought that the greatest fighting force in the world would leave us behind, but they didn't. They, they wanted to come help us. That's why Captain Tully got fired. They took his command away because he immediately launched aircraft out once, but twice. And they relieved him.


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[Assistant] Yes. Before they even, before they even left the horizon of the ship, they were recalled back.


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[Assistant] I believe that we were set up from the get-go. I don't know if it was a year before, six months before, or whatever. But Frontlet 615, uh, was all about, uh, 6-5.


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[Assistant] 6th of June, 15th of, I mean, yeaah, 6th of June on the 15th day the war was supposed to start, but they started early. That's why they rushed us out of, out of, uh,


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[Assistant] Abidjan to get to the area just as fast as we could. I mean that old ship was...


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[Assistant] He was doing this fast, he was shaking, we got, they took the governors off the engines and we were on our way, flying, but, uh,


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[Assistant] Sailing up and down the coast like we usually did in Africa, that was our only position in Africa was to sail up and down the coast and collect intelligence like everybody else does.


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[Assistant] When we got on scene and you could see, as Joe mentioned before, the black smoke coming up from, uh,


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[Assistant] From the, uh, attacking forces, Israel's, going into, uh, the Sinai, it was, uh,


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[Assistant] I thought, well, Jesus, man, I'd hate to be over there. I never knew it was coming to us. And, uh, we were the intended target to sink. And in my view, and I think a lot of other guys do, is sink it, uh, blame it on, uh, Nassar.


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[Assistant] And, uh, World War III were broken out because, uh, Russian subs were there ready to...


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[Assistant] Uh, the Arab states and they were recalled within seconds of a catastrophe of a nuclear war. Yes.


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[Assistant] Our first victory of the whole mess was them not coming aboard because they could have easily, in fact they could have come back that night and got us.


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[Assistant] And for some reason they didn't do it because they could have gotten by with it very easily. Okay, the ship broke apart.


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[Assistant] The Israelis said that, uh, the Arabs did it and, uh, I think we better go get the Arabs. I think we better just go get them. That's, that was the whole, it was a land grab for Israel and a power grab for LBJ to keep his war machine going in Vietnam.


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[Assistant] 294. Two services crew was either wounded or dead.


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[Assistant] There's little cracks in the bottom on the sides. And water was coming through, not a lot, I mean just sweating, more or less sweating.


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[Assistant] And gave us great assistance and great help in securing the bulkheads with the, with the wood and plywood. It was a knee wall.


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[Assistant] And you had to, to check it out to every half hour, 45 minutes. If I wasn't on watch, my other shipmates would go through there and get under there like I did.


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[Assistant] They were in damage control and they had more equipment than we did and to be quite honest they had more expertise and they were in shock but they


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[Assistant] They knew what they were doing and, uh, God bless them for that. They helped us out a lot, but, uh, they, believe me, these guys were so good to us and, uh,


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[Assistant] It wasn't the Navy's fault. It was the higher-ups, like I said before, because these guys, I mean, they felt bad. They could have been there. They could have helped us. The captain asked for an escort, a DE or a destroyer.


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[Assistant] Anything, but you're not a warship, you're an auxiliary ship, nobody's going to mess with you.


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[Assistant] And so they denied us even that, just to have an escort going into a war zone with an unarmed ship.


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[Assistant] I mean, it's pretty incredible. That's why I know that in my heart, and I think my shipmates probably agree too, that, uh,


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[Assistant] We were set up to have this exact thing happen. The only thing is, they couldn't sink us.


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[Assistant] They sure tried, but they couldn't do it. And that's by the grace of God. We're here right now to be on your great show and to have your listeners take a look at this because we're not a cabal, we're not a conspiracy, we're not anything. We're just American citizens that served our country honorably.


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[Assistant] To tell the truth and we'll go that, we'll go down that way to the last man standing. We're not going to take this. We haven't taken it for so many years. Joe was the first president of the LVA. He was in Saudi Arabia. He worked for Ramco.


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[Assistant] I just give all the credit to the great crew, these wonderful men here, and I love them all. And I'm proud to be an American. But I gotta say one thing, at this point in my life, Jaco, I'm not, I've always been proud of my country.


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[Assistant] You know, I've had a lot of things happen. Me and my wife are in San Diego visiting.


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[Assistant] And I was in the lounge having a drink with my wife, getting ready to go get something to eat. And this guy sat beside me and, uh,


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[Assistant] He says, uh, you're a part of the Liberty, huh? And I said, uh, hm? How'd you know that?


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[Assistant] He says, listen, I work for the Mossad. I'm a Mossad agent and you better shut up. My wife was there too. And boy, did she give him hell. They had to get security to get us up to our room.


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[Assistant] I think she gave me more heck than I did, uh, cause she said she's a fighter too, but, uh, it was, uh, it was amazing. And how did they find out who we were in San Diego?


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[Assistant] Either by my credit cards or phone or something, I don't know, but they, they, they found us and gave me a stern warning. And that was, uh, 13 years ago when that happened.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I'm not very clear on that, Jaco, for sure, but I do know that the most seriously wounded were airlifted off the ship from the USS America, and the Davis and the Massey


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] We're, I guess, more or less there to, to, uh, to help us out. And, but I don't think there's any evacuees that went to the Davis. No.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You probably already know this, but that, uh, Admiral Kidd, I think that's another reason they sent us to Malta, because he wanted to brief us all and get our account of what went on.


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[Assistant] Very eloquently said, why would the United States government take on faith what the Israelis said when they muzzled us eyewitnesses? Never to say a word about it.


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[Assistant] Or consequences could be very, very, very severe. Prison or worse, we all know what, uh, worse meant. I was told that directly by Admiral Kidd.


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[Assistant] You know, I, I took that to heart when I first met Lisa.


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[Assistant] And I never told her I was in the military at all until I read an article by Stan White.


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[Assistant] Uh, he was the master chief aboard the ship and it was like a ocean of relief came out for me. I said wow, somebody else was saying something.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now I can start talking. Little did I know, these guys here had just set up the USS Liberty Veterans Association, which I became a part of as soon as I found out you guys were.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] We're, uh, you know, getting together and, uh, it's been a constant battle ever since. We were, we were in the Rose Garden, uh, W. H. Bush was the President. And, uh, we were out there for hours in scorching heat. You know how it is in D.C.


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[Assistant] When Jim Ennis' book came out, uh, Assault on the Liberty.


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[Assistant] A good man, a very brave man for coming out and setting the record straight.


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[Assistant] There were people before him trying to help us, you know, all around, but when A.J. Crystal wrote a book called The Liberty Incident,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That set him on fire because it was a book of lies and he couldn't take it anymore. He says, I'm gonna stick up for these guys and tell the truth.


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[Assistant] It said that, uh, it was an Israeli talking point and an American talking point. It was a mistaken identity. We're nothing but a bunch of disheartened fools that, uh, have got an axe to grind.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Our only ask to grind is to tell the truth. That's why we're here. We're not here to lie or fabricate or anything like that. We lived through it and we don't want anybody else to go through that ever again. It has our government abandon them. You know, same thing in Afghanistan.


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[Assistant] Forgotten. And, uh, that was us. We were forgotten. It's done. It's too late.


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[Assistant] Well, I, I joined February the 6th and got out December the, uh, the 64th and I got out December the 12th, 1967.


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[Assistant] I stayed out for a couple of years and I wasn't going to ship over either because I was done.


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[Assistant] But then, uh, you know, here I'm, I'm 22 then or 23 and I say, man, I'm not, my life's not going anywhere. I'm not doing anything.


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[Assistant] 731, that was in the Tonkin, 12 Tonkin, that's how the Vietnam War started. And some of the original crewmates were still out there. They said, hey, turning, that, that never happened, that's old BS. It was a pretext for war that Johnson dreamed up. And it turned right back around.


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[Assistant] To, uh, the USS Liberty, another pretext phony.


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[Assistant] Outcome to, to, to keep his war machine going in Vietnam. And it's a land grab for Israel and, uh, uh,


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[Assistant] And, uh, I told a couple of guys on board there, you know, my situation and my, uh,


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[Assistant] You know, I might add to that, uh, Jaco, the Israeli war room had us plotted on their map as American and friendly. They said they changed the watch and inadvertently forgot we were there and took us off their war table.


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[Assistant] I mean come on man, don't, you know when you change watches you inform everybody of what's going on and they just took it all away and that's, that's, uh, still irritates me. I know it does these guys too.


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[Assistant] Being the skipper of our ship and getting the Medal of Honor because it brings too much heat on.


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[Assistant] Unfortunately, I think the captain was between a real rock and a hard place.


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[Assistant] On one hand, he can be treated like a hero. On the other hand, he can be treated like a zero.


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[Assistant] I'm not saying he didn't deserve it, I'm just saying that he climbed up and it was years and years later, I don't know how many years later, he finally said, well yeaah, I think it was a plan to attack.


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[Assistant] He wouldn't even join the LVA. I tried for years to get him to join, but he says it's too political.


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[Assistant] Uh, for him to get involved and finally he did join the association after years and years. Uh, which we're glad to see.


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[Assistant] You know, Jaco, he, excuse me, but he, he said something very interesting about the American Legion, which, uh, fires me up because, uh,


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[Assistant] About four or five years ago, uh, Len Oliphant and Ernie Gallo, our former president,


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[Assistant] We're at the convention in the American Legion, and they're wanting to get a booth and things like this, and they wouldn't allow it for us to get a booth. So, Glenn Oliphant, he was so disappointed and upset. He tore up his American Legion card right there, and


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[Assistant] He didn't throw it at anybody, he just sprinkled it right there and the girl said, one of the organizers, he assaulted me and they threw his ass in jail.


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[Assistant] Why wouldn't they let you have a booth? Because they said, uh, the U.S. says liberty is non, uh, is, is not essential. We don't recognize you guys and don't ever come back because you're banned from the American Legion for life.


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[Assistant] Anybody out there that wants to help the Liberty Veterans continue on to doing what we're doing. We're a small organization now. A lot of the guys have already passed on, uh, you know,


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[Assistant] One of the older guys, we just lost Commander Lewis. He was 92, I think. Yeaah. And he just died this year, and a good man, a brave man. He's also in the Sacrificing Liberty, and I think you're really going to get a good insight into what went on, Jaco, because it is, uh, Sacrificing Liberty to me is probably the most interesting, uh,


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[Assistant] Truthful documentary that's ever been done, in my view. I think you would probably agree.


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[Assistant] Our way of trying to give back the real story. And in the last three or four years, Jaco, we've made more progress than we have in the last 55 because of sacrificing liberty. And, uh, now here we are with you.


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[Assistant] None. And that's what happened. They murdered these men and tried to murder us. I mean, you know.


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[Assistant] Except the phony Board of Inquiry, and we got letters back from Congress somewhere in the earth that I brought to show you.


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[Assistant] There's been multiple investigations. There's never been none. They're lying to us. We're eyewitnesses to what happened and they're telling us that we've been, it's been a congressional investigation at least three or four times. There has never been a congressional investigation. They lie to us. What do you think they're telling the American people?


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[Assistant] Write your senators and congressmen and let them know that the real deal is that you've been lying about this all the time and we know it.


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[Assistant] The Congress and everything is going to take the people, people, your listeners to help us out. People that, uh, that watch Sacrifices and Liberty, go to SacrificesandLiberty.com and, uh, God bless you for having us on. You're, you're a good man and all of you. I appreciate it so much. God bless you.


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[Assistant] This is Jocko Podcast number 329 with Echo Charles and me, Jocko Willink. Good evening Echo.


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[Assistant] At 1800, the Bull and Lieutenant Colonel Sidner walked on the stage.


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[Assistant] The room got dead silent when the bull began to talk. Bull was a man of few words.


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[Assistant] The briefing theater was a short walk from our barracks.


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[Assistant] Inside it had simple rows of wood seating, like two by ten boards on short metal poles, no seat backs. It would seat around a hundred. There was an elevated stage with a screen. We had watched a movie there just a couple days prior. Bull reveals a large map and says, quote,


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[Assistant] We are going to rescue 70 American prisoners of war, maybe more, from a camp called Sante. The target is 23 miles west of Hanoi.


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[Assistant] This is something our American prisoners of war have a right to expect from their fellow soldiers.


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[Assistant] We are all part of the same military family. We want these men to know that they are not abandoned by their military family. No man should feel that way. That's why we are going in there after them.


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[Assistant] You are to let nothing, nothing interfere with the operation.


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[Assistant] Our mission is to rescue prisoners, not to take prisoners. If there's been a leak,


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[Assistant] We'll know it by the time the second or third chopper sets down.


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[Assistant] If we're walking into a trap, if it turns out that they know we're coming, don't even dream about walking out of North Vietnam, unless you've got wings on your feet. We'll be a hundred miles from Laos. It's the wrong part of the world for a retrograde maneuver. If it happens, I want to keep this force together.


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[Assistant] If we have to and by God, they're welcome to come across that damn open ground. We'll make them pay for every foot across that son of a bitch.


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[Assistant] Then, like a cannon shot, everyone bursts out shouting, whooping, hollering, slapping each other on the back, raring like broncos, yelling, let's go get them.


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[Assistant] Bull tries to bring us back to earth by explaining in no uncertain terms that he estimates each man has a 50-50 chance of returning alive from this mission.


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[Assistant] If any man has a reason that he should not go on this mission, he should decide now.


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[Assistant] The whole meeting, including Lieutenant Colonel Sidner's portion, lasted no longer than 10 minutes.


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[Assistant] And that right there is an excerpt from a book called, Who Will Go?


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[Assistant] Into the Sante POW Camp written by Terry Buckler and is about one of the most famous


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[Assistant] Special Operations Missions of All Time. The Attempted POW Rescue on the Sante Prison Camp in Vietnam.


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[Assistant] And the author, Terry Buckler, a special forces soldier, Green Beret, was on that raid. He was actually the youngest man on that mission.


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[Assistant] And we have the honor of having him here with us tonight to share some of his lessons learned from this incredible mission and from his life. Terry, thank you for joining us.


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[Assistant] It's an honor to have you here. This is something that I've heard about for many, many years. Anyone that's in the special operations community knows about this raid and the impact that it had.


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[Assistant] Not just on the POWs, but also in, in the history and the continued evolution of special operations as a whole. So it's, uh,


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[Assistant] Pretty, pretty humbling to be sitting here talking to you, that you were actually all in that raid.


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[Assistant] Uhm, how'd you end up coming on this podcast? Was it your daughter?


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[Assistant] I'm definitely glad she reached out and this is just an incredible story. Had an awesome time reading this book. Uhm, and we'll go over some of this book today. I'll start off by saying obviously I can't read the whole book.


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[Assistant] Get the book yourself if you want to hear the entire story, but I want to hit some wave tops of it because it's just an incredible story and uhm,


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[Assistant] Well, usually like to start off in the beginning, kind of where you came from and to introduce those topics, I'll go to the book.


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[Assistant] So it says here, I was born in a two-bedroom house on a small 72-acre farm in central Missouri in 1950. We were six miles from Clark, six from Renwick, and six from Higbee.


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[Assistant] Our mail came through Clark. I went to school at Renwick, and our phone came through Higbee.


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[Assistant] Our house had been built in 1870. We didn't have indoor plumbing until 1962 when I was 12.


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[Assistant] So that's, uh, that's a little different than people grow up now, huh? Just a little bit.


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[Assistant] Tell me a little bit more about, you know, growing up in those conditions.


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[Assistant] Uh, you say in here, dad was a hardworking man, but he also enjoyed having fun. When he returned from the war in 1946, he worked as a coal miner alongside his dad in Rock Springs, Wyoming.


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[Assistant] After he was injured in a mine cave-in, he decided he was not interested in a miner's career and moved back to Missouri, where he had been raised.


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[Assistant] In 1947, he purchased the 72 acres I came to know as our farm. He attended classes on agriculture at the Technical College under the GI Bill.


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[Assistant] And you say this, uh, let me pause to tell you about my father's service in the army. World War II was when he served. He never talked about the war until one Saturday in July 1997 after he had had his stroke and was recovering in the University of Missouri Hospital.


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[Assistant] Dad and I started talking about what he did in the army from basic training until he was released from active duty. Dad spent 36 months in the South Pacific. We talked about what it was like to get shot at and how it felt to shoot another person.


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[Assistant] Dad was a very laid back person. It was hard to imagine him shooting someone. We compared the food, the army fed us and the types of weapons we had. We both carried a Colt 45. Our long rifles were very different. We talked about fear while in combat.


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[Assistant] Now, you say your dad didn't really talk about that until 1997. Right. So did you, did you hear, did you know he was in World War II growing up?


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[Assistant] You say when I turned 15, I spent most of my summers working for a neighbor who'd farmed about 500 acres. My brothers had worked for him until they graduated, then I took their place.


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[Assistant] You were class president. You had a, you had a really small school growing up. 19 in your graduating class. Yes. You were class president. Yes. You played, the only sport you had was basketball. Correct. Which you were not genetically engineered to play.


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[Assistant] Uh, you say after graduating from high school I moved to Columbia to work this summer for my uncle Rodney who owned a tree service since 1950. Uhm,


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[Assistant] It was the end of February 1969 when a couple of my high school buddies and I were riding around the big town of Moberly and decided to stop at the draft, stopping at the draft board to see where we were on the draft list. We'd all been in technical school and back then when you lost your draft deferment from college, it seemed like you jumped up on the draft list.


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[Assistant] The lady at the draft board told me that it would probably be April before I'd be drafted. I asked her when the next group was scheduled to go and she told us it would be March. I asked her to add me to the list. So that was it. I just volunteered for the US Army. Correct.


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[Assistant] So, this is 1969, I mean the Vietnam War is clearly going on. And you're seeing this in the news every day, you know, I've had quite a few people on the podcast that when they were joining the military,


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[Assistant] It was 1965, 66, they, the Vietnam wasn't a guarantee like it must have been for you. You must have known 100% you were going to Vietnam.


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[Assistant] Were there like hippies where you were in Moberly or was there was there not?


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[Assistant] But it was, it seemed like for you and your group of friends, just patriotic, this is what's going on.


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[Assistant] You say on March 17th, 1969, the day to report to the mobility draft office, my mom got me up early and dad.


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[Assistant] And fixed dad and me a big breakfast before she went to work. There in the kitchen, my mom gave me a big hug and we kissed. She told me she loved me. She told me to be safe. That was a tough day for mom as she walked out of the kitchen door to go to work. I could see she was crying.


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[Assistant] Dad had taken the morning off to drive me to Moberly so I could catch the Missouri Transit bus to Kansas City for my physical and my swearing in. It was bright, sunny morning driving to Moberly. Dad had a nice talk to me about what to expect at the Army Basic Training. He advised me to take it all with a grain of salt.


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[Assistant] Dad had served in the Pacific Theater during World War II and had seen his share of combat in the Philippines.


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[Assistant] Standing at the bus stop, we hugged and he gave me some more good advice. Keep your nose clean, your head down, and don't volunteer for anything. Dad wiped back his tears as he walked back to his car.


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[Assistant] It's got a little bit of a different meaning when, uh, the war's going on in Vietnam, and your dad had actually fought himself in Southeast Asia. He knows exactly what you're getting into.


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[Assistant] And he gave you some good advice, which we're going to find out you did not listen to. You're right.


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[Assistant] But it was free, and you know what they say, you get what you pay for.


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[Assistant] I'd only been in the army a few days when our company was brought into one of our training buildings. There was this big, bad looking Rambo guy who was looking for volunteers for the Green Berets.


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[Assistant] I didn't know a lot about the Green Berets, but I did know they were one of the most elite fighting units in the army. This guy looked as though he could have kicked any ten of us at once.


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[Assistant] I thought if I'm going to war, I want to go with the best, so I raised my hand when he asked if anyone wanted to volunteer for the Green Berets Special Forces. I knew this would cost me another year of service, but I figured another year is worth the price to pay to be among the Army's best.


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[Assistant] I guess I was a poor listener when it came to my dad's advice about volunteering. So how much did you know about Special Forces?


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[Assistant] How many guys from your bootcamp company do you think volunteered?


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[Assistant] It's kind of a shock value of bootcamp for you, having grown up on a farm, you've been working hard your whole life. I mean, were you, you're getting, it might have been easy for you. I had a, one of my guys worked on a dairy farm up in Minnesota and for him being in the military was easy, it was a vacation.


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[Assistant] So that's just a- Advanced training. Extended period of time you're there. Right. Now, how did you end up getting an MOS of combat engineer? Did that get assigned to you? Yea, that was, that was assigned. In case you didn't make it through special forces training?


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[Assistant] Uhm, you took your first airplane ride after AIT. You say I experienced my first airplane ride. It took me from Fort Leonardwood to Fort Benning, Georgia. Jump school as much as I expected. A lot of running and pushups and when you screwed up in morning inspections.


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[Assistant] I went through jump school in August. Fast forward a little bit here. You said, I had the good fortune of going through jump school with some Navy SEALs from team two, if I recall correctly. When they learned that I was headed for special forces training, they decided they would adopt me into their ranks.


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[Assistant] The water troughs we were, we had were about a foot deep and 18 inches wide. The seals stopped up one of the troughs and filled it with water. Then about six of them grabbed me and dunked me in the water until I thought I was going to drown. From then on they deemed me an honorary seal.


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[Assistant] I guess you might say I had my first taste of water boat boarding.


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[Assistant] They were actually a great bunch of guys. One day we were headed back to the barracks after a day of training. One of the seals was made to run around the platoon while we did the airborne shuffle.


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[Assistant] Well, the seals have a very high degree of esprit de corps. If one of them was dropped for pushups, they all did pushups. So if one seal had to run around our platoon, they all would. Think about that. The seals were running circles around us as we soldiers did the airborne shuffle.


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[Assistant] Now to say this pissed off the cadre as an understatement, the next thing I knew we were running what felt like a sprint as the seals ran around the platoons. By the time we made it back to the barracks, we were all exhausted. The cadre then had the seals doing pushups for the next 10 or 15 minutes. I developed a real appreciation for the level of camaraderie the seals have. I


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[Assistant] Went to airborne school. They don't, SEALs don't go to airborne school anymore in Fort Benning, Georgia. They, they go through, uh, the Navy has their own little program now.


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[Assistant] But so I, I was, I don't know when they stopped it. It was quite a few years after me, but it was definitely that situation when we'd go down there, you know, we were, like you said earlier, we were, so we were young, so we thought we knew everything, but we were definitely in good shape because we were just coming out of SEAL training and airborne school, especially this is like 1990, 1991 I think.


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[Assistant] Is when I was going through airborne school, so at that time there's all kinds of people from the army going through airborne squad and the air force. It wasn't...


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[Assistant] Uh, yeaah, it's too bad they don't join us up for that anymore. It was kinda fun. Even though I'll tell ya, I had a kid asking me about it the other day, and...


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[Assistant] Man, that's weird, that's where I really learned about the hurry up and wait, like never before. I mean, you get, you know, we'd meet at two o'clock in the morning to start getting your parachute on.


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[Assistant] And you roll into September, 1969 special forces training. You say one certain night in September, 1969, 74 top notch soldiers out of a hundred screen out of hundreds screen.


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[Assistant] We jumped into the DZ at Camp McCall near Fort Bragg with all our equipment and one change of fatigues. That's all we would have for the next few weeks. We were about four miles from what would be our, what would become our base camp.


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[Assistant] It was about 10pm and the welcome committee was ready for us. Now you could tell these guys really looked forward to our arrival. The cadre quickly assembled and started marching us to camp.


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[Assistant] On this dirt road with our rucksacks and our weapons. So this is your start of special forces training. You're going, you're jumping into school.


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[Assistant] And so, so once you start, once you start this, this section of special forces training and people start washing out, are they quitting? Are they failing? What's going on?


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[Assistant] And a fast runner, you mentioned that specifically you were a fast runner. Uhm, and then you, you know, are you doing a lot of patrolling, like long, long marches during special forces training? Cause I think it's different now.


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[Assistant] Yeah, it's a, it's always a, but I, you know, I went through basic seal training and there you get to eat and you get to eat actually a lot. Most of the time you're getting three meals a day and usually one or two of them are in a chow hall where it's basically all you can eat and I always feel


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[Assistant] You know, the Rangers that get one MRE a day for whatever that is, you know, 85 days and you know, those guys always lose 20, 15, 20, 25 pounds. I gained.


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[Assistant] I gained 11 pounds going through SEAL training. I went from 174 to 185 and that's working out however long you're working out, you know, doing a ton of physical activity, but I was just eating a ton and you could get like get done at night.


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[Assistant] I would be ordering pizza at 10 o'clock or 11 o'clock at night. I'd order pizza Domino's would deliver. We would eat pizza just about, well, we eat pizza on a lot of nights, so we're getting a lot of calories. But I always found that the army


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[Assistant] Yeah, the Air Force definitely puts a priority on, on comfort. I will say on comfort, they do. I've always heard that the Air Force, like when they design a base,


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[Assistant] The first thing they build is the barracks, then they build the recreation, then they build the gymnasium, then they build the pool, then they build the golf course. And now they're just about out of money and they say to the government, well we still need an air, you know, we still need an airstrip. You know, and some hangers. And they go, well we don't have any choice but to build it, so.


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[Assistant] I always try to add humor to anything that I do.


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[Assistant] Well the entire company started tap dancing in place. All of a sudden they all stopped. I had my back to the cadre building and it was at that time that I realized I was the only one still tap dancing. I stopped and slowly turned around and stood there and there stood the cadre.


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[Assistant] They did have a sense of humor. I got a chuckle out of it, but they told me to drop and start doing pushups. And here you have one of your first life lessons in this book. Life lesson one, add humor.


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[Assistant] It really helps when things are getting tough. Sometimes it's not easy to find it within you, but even the POWs somehow found a way to pass some slivers of humor through the cracks in the prison walls. The soul needs it. Make sure you contribute some for the benefit of the people around you.


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[Assistant] In special forces MOS. In special forces there were five MOS options, weapons, engineer, communication, intel and medical. Uhm, and you ended up with a communications MOS. Now is that cause you, is that right?


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[Assistant] So they kept you, and you were an engineer anyways, you'd been through AIT or that was as an engineer, so they put you as an engineer. Yes. Okay.


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[Assistant] That's awful. Yeaah, those, uh, you gotta pay attention when you're working with demolitions.


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[Assistant] And I bet the guy that was actually near the blasting machine, he wasn't by a charge, right? So he lived.


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[Assistant] Fast forward a little bit, uhm, you say here, after I completed Special Forces MOS training in March 1970, we were all then assigned to a group. At this time, 5th Group was responsible for Vietnam, and as warriors, everyone wanted to be assigned to 5th Group, including myself.


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[Assistant] However, there were two groups at Fort Bragg, sixth group and seventh group.


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[Assistant] I was assigned to 7th Group. Like any good soldier, you do as you are told and make the best of it. I was proud to be a Green Beret.


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[Assistant] Not in Haley, uh, national forest from which I was picked to be part of bull Simon's mysterious mission.


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[Assistant] So on September 2nd, 1970, as a member of the advance party, we loaded on the C123's southbound. So Bill Simons, this guy is a legend. Uhm, World War II.


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[Assistant] He fought in New Guinea, he was a ranger, he conducted a raid, uh, that was a, that was a POW rescue, they rescued in the Philippines over 500 POWs, many of whom had participated in the Baton Death March.


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[Assistant] Uh, then he'd gotten out for a couple years, and then came back in, he was in special forces.


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[Assistant] He was in SOG. I mean, this guy was a legendary guy.


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[Assistant] And how did that happen that you got picked for this, for this mission? How'd you hear about the mission? How'd you get picked?


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[Assistant] He looks like a legend. This is his physical appearance. He looks like a legend.


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[Assistant] Did you have any idea why they selected you to this day?


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[Assistant] You say, now Bull wasn't the only legendary officer attached to the Sante raid.


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[Assistant] Captain Dick Meadows would lead Blue Boy Assault Group, which would land directly inside the POW camp walls. Enlisted in 1946, a paratrooper in the Korean War in the early 60s.


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[Assistant] Meadows served a stint with the British Special Air Service in Vietnam. Meadows captured video footage proving North Vietnam Army was infiltrating South Vietnam and impressed General Westmoreland so much that in 1967 he received a battlefield commission directly to captain.


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[Assistant] He was the commanding officer of Ranger School when Bull Simons recruited him for the Sante raid. Lieutenant Colonel Bud Sidner


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[Assistant] ...was selected by Bull Simons to serve as the ground forces commander. Whereas Bull Simons role would be the on-scene eyes and ears of the Joint Contingency Task Group in constant contact with General Manor.


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[Assistant] Lieutenant Colonel Sidner had the reputation of a gentleman and a consummate professional. One day, Brigadier General Blackburn from the Pentagon, Brigadier General Manor, Bull Simons, and Captain Dick Meadows


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[Assistant] They treated me as one of them, making small talk with me. After a while Lieutenant Colonel Sidner took them inside. This was one of the great things about Special Forces. The officers and enlisted men treat each other with respect. I believe this is because you have to depend on one another when you operate in small teams like Special Forces. So they were super strict about who was coming into this building.


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[Assistant] Well, you're standing this guard duty and you're doing the best of your ability, which leads us to another life lesson you have in here. Life lesson two. Your life is significant, so be excellent in everything you do. No matter how insignificant you think your job is, it could turn out to be a life-changing position.


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[Assistant] I credit my dad for instilling this attitude in my brothers and me. He always told us, if you're gonna do anything, do your best.


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[Assistant] Uh, you go on to say here as the member, as a member of the advanced party, another one of our tasks.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Was to build this large mockup of buildings using target canvas as the walls with doors with cutouts for windows. We began constructing it on Thursday, September 10th and it took us several days to complete.


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[Assistant] We didn't know why we were having to build it. It wasn't until we did our first walkthrough during our initial training that I realized how it would be used.


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[Assistant] Even then, we had no idea it was a dimensionally perfect replica of all the buildings and walls of the POW camp in Sante, North Vietnam.


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[Assistant] So you guys built the full sized 2x4s or whatever, jammed 2x4s into the dirt and then built little buildings, full sized walkthroughs.


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[Assistant] Right, so they wanted to confirm that the whatever, the Russians couldn't see it from satellites or from flyovers and aircraft or whatever. Exactly, yep.


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[Assistant] But, but somebody had started the rumor that it was so secret that you would take it down. Yeah. All, every day.


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[Assistant] Fast forward a little bit, talking about some of the training you do, you were doing on Wednesday, September 9th, about a week after we arrived as the advanced party, the other 78 or so Green Berets arrived and we started our training.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The first 30 days of training were intense. Each day started with PT followed by running the Meadows mile. Dick Meadows loved to run and he led many of our runs. Now I like to run, but not like Captain Meadows. If you were not in shape, you soon would be.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I think this is one of the reasons I was selected as one of the Raiders. I was by no means the biggest man. In fact, I was the second shortest. The shortest Raider was also the oldest NCO. Master Sergeant Gallin Pappy Kittleson.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Papi was no stranger to combat. Papi and I had several things in common. We were both short and stocky built. We'd both grown up on a farm in the Midwest. In World War II, Papi was the youngest man in the raid on, on the POW camp in the Philippines. I was the youngest man on this raid. 25 years junior to Papi.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That's pretty awesome. So he's, he's what? 45 then? Cause you're 20. He's 45 years old. And you're working with all these legends with all this combat experience.


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[Assistant] You say our training began with us walking through our positions over and over again in daylight during the first month.


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[Assistant] There were several changes to how we performed our mission. Each person had specific tasks to perform. Not only do we have to know our own role, but we had to know the role of the man to our left and right and where they would be when the firing started. Captain Dan and I were a two man team.


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[Assistant] As the RTO for Red Wine Security Group, my job, as Captain Dan put it, I want you at arm's length for me or I will be the one to shoot you.


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[Assistant] And if you knew Captain Dan, he would have. So you can bet I stayed damn close to him. The primary job of our two man team was to make our way to the communications building as fast as we could.


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[Assistant] To neutralize the people inside before they could radio for reinforcements.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] We had two buildings to clear before we could get to the communication building.


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[Assistant] The technique we used for clearing a building was different from what our troops use today. As a two man team, we would first toss a concussion grenade into the building. Why use a concussion grenade and not a frag grenade? The answer is very simple.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The buildings were, we were clearing of bad guys were not made of concrete but of a thin material that a piece of frag would fly through. Captain Dan would stand to one side of the doorway and I would position myself on the other side across from him. When the concussion grenade exploded,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It would generally blow the door open or in some cases completely off.


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[Assistant] As soon as the grenade exploded, Captain Dan would dive to the floor at the threshold, firing in the room from the top left to the bottom right. At the same time, I would step over him, firing top right to bottom left.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] By this we created an X covering all the space in the room. Captain Dan would remain on the floor and I would back out and shine my flashlight into the room so Captain Dan could confirm that we had neutralized everyone.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I would then put in a new clip depending on if I'd fired any tracer rounds. Captain Dan taught me that in combat, you don't have to


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You don't have time to count how many bullets you fired. The technique is to first load five tracer rounds and then finish filling the magazine. When you're in a firefight and you see tracers smoking out the end of your barrel, you know you need to change magazines.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It's big. It's a different thing. It's not the same as a, it's not the same as a flashbang at all. No. It's a big, in fact they're, they're a lot bigger than a frag grenade. Right. They're, they're really big. And they create a massive explosion. Now there's no fragmentation as you mentioned.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But it is a massive explosion. And when you, when that happens inside of a closed room.


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[Assistant] It's going to create an issue. What did you think the walls were going to be made of there in the camp?


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[Assistant] Captain Dan dives to the floor in the doorway and unloads a magazine on full auto from the top left to the bottom right.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now were you worried about where your, or did you guys plan in such a way that your bullets that were going through this building that there was no friendlies on the other side? Did you guys have the whole thing kind of mapped out to avoid that friendly fire?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It's interesting because when I first got in the SEAL teams, we didn't have a very big budget and some of the training that we would do,


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[Assistant] For our kill houses that we would set up, they were just made of plywood.


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[Assistant] So it was actually harder in some ways because you had to be aware of...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] In Iraq, most of the time, you know, it was, it was concrete walls or whatever. So you could, you could actually shoot in rooms and they wouldn't generally go through the walls, but it takes a different level of planning when you have to account for.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Done wrong. I mean, when I, when we got, uh, Terry Buck and Lieutenant Dan spray in 30 round mags, if you don't, if you don't have a good plan, that's gonna, you're gonna shoot your own people. So, you guys had to think through a lot of these things in a lot of detail, and the good thing is where you were training was the same thing. It wasn't like you were training in a ballistic house, you were shooting through, uh, you know, just, just, uh, whatever paper or whatever paper.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You say in your work, always be training and improving.


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[Assistant] During the first month of our training, there were several changes made to how we approached our positions. I learned a very important lesson, invest timing, time and training, it pays off. Just like a football team trains for the big game, we were training for our big game. The major difference, our lives depended on how well we performed.


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[Assistant] Training sometimes gets boring but when the bullets start flying in both directions you're sure glad


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[Assistant] That you know what is expected of you and your team members.


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[Assistant] Yeah, and even I thought through that and we'll get to the actual rate itself, but as much planning went into it,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And as much they tried to think of all the different scenarios that could take place.


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[Assistant] Something happened that they didn't plan for, which is, what is it, Greenleaf? Greenleaf came back to the target site, so you had to do a link up, which is one of the hardest things to do in a combat zone, is linking up with friendly forces. In fact, I think it's the hardest thing to do. The hardest thing to do in combat is link up with friendly forces.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah. And they were coming from a firefight themselves. Exactly. So they got hot weapons there. They're amped up. They hear you guys shooting 400 yards away. Now they're landing the helicopters.


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[Assistant] And so, it's a testament to the training, not just to the rehearsal of, hey, this is exactly what's gonna happen, and here's the contingency plan, but here's something that we didn't expect to happen.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But we still have the good standard operating procedures, the presence of mind to make, to make the right decisions. And that's a testament to all this training.


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[Assistant] There was a lot of speculation that it might be an attempt to free prisoners in Cuba based on the three hour flying time of the mission.


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[Assistant] I had been training and pulling guard duty for about a month when I got my chance to speak up. I was checking Colonel Bull Simons for access to the talk building. While we were waiting for an escort to take the bull in, he asked how things were going for me.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I knew that he was only going to pick some of us for the actual mission, so I said, sir, I didn't volunteer to come here and pull guard duty. If I wanted to pull guard duty, I would have stayed at Fort Bragg.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now Bull always had a two inch cigar that he chewed on. He looked me right in the eyes and said, young man hang in there.


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[Assistant] I just bitched to the bull about pulling guard duty.


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[Assistant] I thought, well, I'll probably end up pulling guard duty for the rest of my time in the army.


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[Assistant] However, what he said was true. Within the next week, things did change.


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[Assistant] The first cut was made on Friday, September 18th. They selected 51 men and an additional 10 men were identified as backup that could be used in any of the different elements. I was selected to be a part of the Red Wine Security Group.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I would be the RTO for Captain Dan Turner. No more guard duty for me. The three groups were each placed in their own areas in the barracks building to help the team concept.


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[Assistant] This also leads to another life lesson. Life lesson number four. You say have patience and aggressiveness and contentment. Guarding the talk, we are not allowed to know the why.


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[Assistant] As I saw my opportunity slipping away, I was aggressive, hungry to be in the middle of the action. That's okay, it's not a fault to be aggressive. It's a virtue.


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[Assistant] If you can choose in your heart and in your mind to be at peace and to be thankful, trust in God with the outcome.


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[Assistant] So you gotta know, you gotta be patient, but at the same time, you know, sometimes you gotta approach, uh, the bull. Yeah.


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[Assistant] I mean that's what you're looking for when you're in charge of a team. You want someone that wants to go, that wants to step up and that's the impression you gave him for sure.


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[Assistant] Uhm, you say in our training at Fort Bragg we used blanks, but for our training here at Auxiliary Field 3 we used live ammunition.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I remember one day we were throwing frag grenades and one of the guys got hit with some shrapnel. It was only a minor cut, but it drove home the point that we needed to stay sharp. By the end of the first month, we had practiced until every person knew not only his own position, but also the job of every person around him and the alternate plans. Then we started practicing at night.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You go on to say, when we first started training using the helicopters, the plan called for Captain Dan to be the first man off and for me to be the second. Now I had watched enough war movies to know that the first men off any vehicle get killed. For a couple of weeks, we trained this way. I thought, oh shit, we aren't even gonna make it off the chopper.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I can now admit that every time I stepped off the chopper, the thought went through my mind of getting zapped before my foot even hit the ground.


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[Assistant] And after a few rehearsals, the plan changed to where Captain Dan and I were the last two off the chopper. All of a sudden, I thought, damn,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now that I'm the last guy off, the bad guys will have their sights locked on. I will get nailed for sure. Eventually I had to admit that if the good lord wants me, he doesn't care if I'm the first, the last or the middle. My maker is going to bring me home when it's my time.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Make sure that the day you meet your maker is not the first time you've been introduced.


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[Assistant] If you are prepared at all times, you're free to live life fearless. And that was your attitude eventually. You had to say, you know what, whether I'm first, whether I'm last, if it's my time, it's my time. I can only control so much.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Well, I mean, it's, it's a testament when you can say that, you know, that your wife who lived an amazing life and, and she passed away and you know, we were talking before we, we started that you said, well, we're going to come out here anyways. We're going to record this thing because she would want me to carry on with the mission.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, it's a, it's a, it's an important part of the book, you know, and I think that, I think that happens with young guys going into combat. You have to get to a point where you say, no, you know what? This could, I could die tonight. Yeah.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But you can do that walking across the road. You can do that walking across the road, and you can only control the things you control. You can train hard, you can prepare, you can study the plan, you can mitigate the risk, but there's some risk you're not going to be able to mitigate.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And so you do that on Friday nights. And again, it's crazy to think that you guys still didn't know where you were going. You guys had no idea where you were going. You thought you might be going to Cuba. I think there was somewhere else you thought you might be going.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So. No. Okay. Cause I know sometimes we would get spun up in such a way where they'd be like, hey we got a mission! And we think, actually this is the very first deployment I went on.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] We got recalled. We had little beepers. I was in Guam and we had beepers and they said, hey, if this thing shows up 9-1-1, you know, you got 20 minutes to get to base cause something's going on. So we get there and I'm, I'm, I guess I'm 19 or 20 at this point.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Maybe I'm 20 or 21, but anyways, I'm young and very dumb. And I also think that I'm, you know, I think I'm going to Vietnam. You know, I think I'm, I think I'm going to be like the combination of James Bond and Rambo and everybody else.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So, we show up in Guam on deployment, my Paseo platoon. It's 1990.


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[Assistant] 2 or 1993 anyways, but I think there's just, you know, this is it. We're going to war.


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[Assistant] So we go out, we get all, we go out to the range, we get all of our weapons dialed in, and I'm just totally ready. And then...


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[Assistant] And uhm, oh, there you go. Here it is. It's on. It's go time.


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[Assistant] And we run, you know, rush in to back to base. We're sitting in our platoon space and my leading petty officer comes in and says,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] We, we would sometimes get recalled to do something and they wouldn't tell us it was training.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Speaking of Friday night fights, you say there's one interesting incident that sticks in my mind. Our barracks were two stories world war two style with one big open bay for all of us. I was on the first floor and our beds were lined up on each side of the room. It was about 1.30am when I was awakened by crashing noises, just four bunks down from mine.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It was three NCOs wrestling a Master Sergeant to the floor in our barracks. Apparently, the Master Sergeant, after quite a few drinks, had a disagreement with Bull Simons at the bar concerning how the team should perform their mission and was frustrated that the troops were being kept in the dark.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The discussion got heated and the NCO came back to his barracks to get his weapon to persuade the good Colonel to use his ideas.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The guys in the barracks held the NCO until he eventually cooled down. The next morning, the bull and the NCO were on the PT field. The bull had the NCO heels locked at attention while he chewed his butt up one side and down the other. The bull convinced him that he should not disagree with him again, at least not with a threat of bodily harm.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But the bull did not let this affect his relationship with the NCO or anybody else. The bull always said he didn't want a bunch of boy scouts. We always look forward to Friday night fights. And this is classic. The following entry was made into the official


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I believe this is the very discussion with that Master Sergeant. And so this is a quote from the actual record. It says,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] 1715, Colonel Simon's disgust grievances with operational personnel and disgust progress end quote.


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[Assistant] Yeah, I know as a leader you want to have guys that are gonna push back if they disagree with you because you might have a bad idea.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, now you don't want them to go to their barracks and try and grab a weapon. No, to convince you.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But you do want to hear their, hear what they're going to say and why they think that. Fast forward a little bit.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Monday, November 16th, 1970. We were told to pack our gear that we were leaving Eglin Air Force Base for our new undisclosed location the next day. We didn't have a chaplain to our group, in our group, but we did have Pappy. Pappy announced that he would be holding a prayer service in the barracks. Pappy was respected by all the raiders and officers from the Bull.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Down the chain of command, in World War II, Pappy had been an Alamo Scout, just like Bull Simons. They had both been on the raid that freed 500 POWs.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] There's a 2005 major motion picture called The Great Raid. Pappy was pretty famous in the army, particularly in special forces.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] When I walked into the barracks where Pappy was holding the prayer service, it really struck me how many of these seasoned soldiers were there to pray on their knees to our Father in heaven. I can tell you, there were no atheists in our group.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The next morning, you guys get on board a C-141. First place you land is California. Next place you land is Alaska. And you still don't know where you're going.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The next stop would be our new home for a few days. It was a long flight. We didn't get much sleep, but at least we touched down at our final destination. It was November 18th at 3am when we stopped.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] When we stepped off the C140 directly into a large hangar, they loaded us into what I thought were bread trucks. The air in this dark land had a sweet tropical smell, warm and humid. The old warriors thought we were in Southeast Asia, but were not certain.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, we were awakened at 6am, had breakfast, and went about our morning as normal. We were told to be at the mess hall at 11am, a little earlier than normal lunch. During lunch, we were told to go to our barracks immediately after we finished eating and get some sleep.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] To ensure we got some sleep, Lieutenant Colonel Joe Cataldo, our doctor, who would be going on the mission and into the compound with us, required every one of us to take a sleeping pill as we exited the mess hall. As we walked toward the barracks, the old timers explained that they had never had to do that before. It was pretty clear that this would be the night.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] By 1730, we started filling the theater. You could tell.


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[Assistant] And this is where you get the, uh, the speech that I opened this whole thing up with where you finally find out


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Where you're, where you're actually going because you had no idea and that the way you write about that, that reaction that everybody had, would you say, I mean, I would imagine that all these other possible missions that you could be going on, there would be none more favorable


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] than going to actually rescue other American service members in Vietnam. I mean that's, that's the pinnacle.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, so you get that speech, you say at 2100, the bread trucks took us to a hanger that we used as our staging area. We checked our weapons. I carried a Colt M1911, a .45 caliber pistol. My machine gun was a Car 15 with eight 20 round magazines and five 30 round magazines.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I used the tips I'd learned from Captain Dan on how I should load my magazines. I strapped on two frag grenades and ten concussion grenades.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Captain Dan told me that if we ended up needing to use frags, well, we were probably in some deep shit. So I hope that did not have to use them.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] We used the concussion grenades in, in clearing the buildings. My next task was to check the batteries on both my radios. I checked my handset and my headset on my Prick 25. That's the way we were, we were to communicate with Lieutenant Colonel Sidner's ground command team. The headset allowed me to listen to the radio traffic and still fire my weapon and toss grenades.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Each raider carried a survival radio, a Prick 90. When you turn on these radios, they send out a warble tone that allows SAR, search and rescue team, to pull you out of a hot situation.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And you go through some, it's pretty cool in here, you know, for people that are going to get the book, which I'm sure is a lot. Uh, you go through like a gear list of absolutely everything that you're carrying, every, all the specialty gear that you had. Uhm.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yup, chainsaws. The guys were carrying welder, uh, arc welders, which even though despite your incredible welding skills, you didn't get assigned.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Time to go. C-130 landed at U-Dorn at 2300. Ushered out, you guys are ushered out to your HH-53 choppers.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And here we go at 2317 with all the Green Berets aboard, Apple II lifted off, forming up with the other five helicopters and Lime 1 and Lime 2, the four engine C-130 Hercules tankers that would take us to the border of North Vietnam.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] During our training we had only made the full three hour long flight twice. The idea, I think, was to keep us from trying to figure out where we might be going. What I remember about that night was how hot it was and that the sky was very clear.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] On that long chopper flight from Udorn to Sante, I spent a lot of time in prayer. You can learn a little bit about yourself seeing what your mind latches onto when you know that in a few hours you might be meeting your maker.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] After about an hour of flying, most of the guys were lying back against the sides of the chopper. Some guys had their eyes closed, either praying or sleeping. I thought to myself, these men are true warriors. Many of the raiders were married. Some had kids my age or older.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] There was a lot of small talk. I figured each man was thinking, there was not a lot of small talk. I figured each man was thinking of his family. Each one knew the risk he was taking. We were no different than other warriors before us. Our military is filled with men and women who are willing to risk their lives to protect this great country.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I sat back and had a nice little talk with the big man upstairs. I asked him to protect us tonight.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It was the longest three hours I had ever experienced. I thought about my mom and dad and how they would feel if I didn't make it back. I wondered what they would think when they read the letter I had written to them before I left. I thought about what my dad told me before I left for the army. Don't volunteer for anything.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I thought about my buddy Charlie Cottingham and the fun we had as kids. I thought back to the times Mike and I spent riding our horses into the woods around our farms. I guess I was trying to take my mind off the mission. Because I couldn't stop mentally rehearsing.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I got up to stretch my legs and look out the window. I would, could see the other choppers in the moonlight. It was like we were doing...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Just another rehearsal, so prepared we were. But this was the live run, we were actually going in.


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[Assistant] I sat back down and said another prayer for us and waited for us to arrive at Sante, North Vietnam.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It's a long flight. That's a long flight to be sitting there thinking about this target that you're going into. Yep.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] How well aware were you of the possibility of surface-to-air missiles?


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[Assistant] So you guys were blessed with a little bit of, or at least you were, of being a little bit naive. Yes. And, and I know that we've


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] We've lost a lot of our naive attitude about helicopters because we've taken some, some


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Horrific hits in helicopters and lost a ton of incredibly great people. But for you guys, you weren't really thinking about that too much.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] 0-2-20. Saturday, November 21st, 1970. When we were just about to land, I heard through the chatter in my headset the voice of Sergeant First Class Howell came through. He was the RTO for Lieutenant Colonel Sidner, the ground force commander for the raid.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Alternate plan green. I repeat, alternate plan green. Do you copy?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] This was only the first of the bad news I would hear tonight. I responded, say again, Sergeant First Class Howell.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I said back into my hand mic, Roger, alternate plan green, over.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I thought to myself, holy crap, this can't be real. I turned to Captain Dan and told him we were going to alternate plan green. Captain Dan gave me that oh shit look and calmly told me to pass the announcement on to others in red wine.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Alternate plan green meant one thing to all of us on the red wine chopper. We knew that we had 22 fewer men.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] We were going to execute the mission and would now have to perform their role as well as ours. So what had happened here? And again, you go into these details in the book, but.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Greenleaf, this one other chopper, had landed in the wrong spot. Uh, there was a schoolyard that was 400 yards to the south, and it looked kinda like the POW camp, like a little school compound.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So you get this call that hey, we're going, we're still going, they're in the wrong spot, but we're still going, you still need to execute the mission and this is where you have life lesson number six. Don't be indispensable.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Always be training a backup person for your job and always be learning to be a backup for your teammates. This applies to any job in life. The graveyards are full of indispensable men.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, yeaah, that's a sketchy situation. All of a sudden you got one third the troops.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Electronically driven rotary breach to feed the ammo belt at lightning speed. Now my heart was already pounding, but the sound of that mini gun firing two feet from me really took me to a new level.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I make sure to have the 30 round magazine well seated and I chamber around. In training I've done this a hundred times, but this is it.


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[Assistant] My first time in combat. This is no game. I'm not as scared as much as I am excited. This is the moment I have trained for. The reason I joined the Green Berets. I don't


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[Assistant] I can't let Captain Dan down or the other Raiders. As the RTO for the Red Wine Security Group, my job is to stay close to Captain Dan. He's the commander of Red Wine and I am expected to protect his backside.


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[Assistant] The tailgate is lowered. The chopper is feathering to the ground. We are about to touch down on the enemy's homeland and there is no rescuing us if there has been a security breach. I feel the chopper settle as it has done so many times in training. Red wine group is unloading exactly as we have practiced over 170 times.


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[Assistant] The major difference is that this time the bullets are flying in both directions. It is amazing how fast you can exit a chopper.


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[Assistant] Captain Dan and I start off the tale of the chapter, the last two men off. I am literally one step to his right side as we run. Our boots have just started splashing the rice paddies when a North Vietnamese army soldier fires at us from the very building we were to clear.


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[Assistant] A couple of bullets zip by us. A natural reaction. I place the green dot from my Armalite single point sight on the guard's chest and fire three rounds. He immediately falls to the ground. In that instant, I don't hesitate. What the seasoned warriors taught me really paid off. Don't hesitate.


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[Assistant] I imagine most of the warriors in your first time downrange wonder in the back of your mind how you respond to that moment. Would I freeze when I faced with the decision to kill or be killed? I'd only just stepped onto the enemy's ground and I had my first kill. There'd be more to come as we cleared the buildings.


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[Assistant] Out of the gate. You know, I watch a lot of, uh,


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[Assistant] Fighting. And they always talk about, you know, who's got the fastest record knockout in a fight.


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[Assistant] You might have the fastest kill on enemy territory that you step off and you're immediately engaging a guy. Uh, that's kinda crazy to think about.


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[Assistant] Master Sergeant Joe Lupiak and his Red Wine Element 2, which includes him, Sergeant First Class Tyrone Adderley, and Sergeant First Class Billy Martin.


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[Assistant] Each of us knew this was going to be much more difficult than it was during training. These are buildings that Greenleaf Group would have neutralized according to the original plan, and they would have had 14 of their men on this task.


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[Assistant] Under alternate plan green, five of our team were now going to have to do it.


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[Assistant] They also had more firepower. Sergeant First Class Jake Jackavenko was carrying an M60 bipod machine gun, which we don't have on our team.


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[Assistant] What we did still have was the element of surprise. Bull Simons told us if there was a security leak, we would know it by the time the second chopper landed.


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[Assistant] We turned out to be that second chopper, and we are operating like a well-oiled machine.


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[Assistant] Captain Dan is redirecting our red wine group comprised of four elements and it is making sure we are getting the job done.


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[Assistant] As a virgin to combat and as Captain Dan's RTO, I stay close to him. You have to respect and trust the men with whom you go to battle. This is where the months of training pay off.


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[Assistant] We know what we have to do next. Alternate Plan Green means that the bridge north of the POW camp will remain open to enemy reinforcements crossing it, since we didn't have enough raiders to send someone to blow it. Over the radios, Lieutenant Colonel Sidner directs the A1E


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[Assistant] Skyraider pilots to light it up with rock eye missiles. If anyone tries to cross at the A1s, we'll open up with 20mm cannon.


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[Assistant] Those fly boys are cocky, but damn, they're good at their job.


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[Assistant] That is Sergeant First Class Joe Murray. Joe is a member of Master Sergeant Herman Spencer's team.


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[Assistant] Whose job it is to secure the area south of the south wall. That's the wall closest to where the helicopters dropped us off and will later pick us up.