[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I realize, oh my god, the Japanese have got this reef zeroed in.


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[Assistant] Major Hayes was right. He said we'd be going in standing up. And that's what we're doing.


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[Assistant] It would be a good plan if only there were two, if only there were one or two machine guns firing at them. But there are many, many machine guns firing, creating multiple curtains that meet and intermingle and overlap and crisscross.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Might as well stand up. That way you'll get shot in the chest or stomach, which is usually fatal, instead of to the head, which is almost always fatal.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Walking straight into curtains of machine gun fire is not something that comes naturally.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That's why, when I glance over my shoulder to see how my men are doing, I see that I haven't, that many haven't left the boat. A few, most likely those that are just next to me in the boat, are in the water, but the others are bunched up at the top of the ramp, all tensed up to take the plunge, but hesitating, unable to make themselves move.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] For one thing, they make a big fat target standing there crowded together at the front of the boat.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] They've gotta get into the water and disperse before the Japanese machine guns find them and wipe them out with a couple well-placed bursts. But more important, they've got a job to do. They've gotta get off the boat, get ashore, and fight and kill Japanese. I gesture at them and shout, come on guys, let's go, get moving, move out. They obey me. They get moving. They're good men. The best.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Right away the men around me, my men, are taking hits and falling. I'm very aware of this. I'm hearing cries for help, cries for Corman. The wounded are calling out, Corman, Corman, I'm hit, I'm hit, over here. They're calling out as loud as they can. I see men going under, often for the last time.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Artillery shells exploding in the water, splashing, throwing up, whooshing geysers of water. And human body parts. And most especially, most memorably, the shouts and screams of the wounded and the dying. Oh god, I'm hit! Corman, over here! Corman, help me! Help me, please!


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Man are dropping everywhere to the left and right of me, falling and sinking into the water, going under. Some men don't cry out, hardly make a sound when they're hit. The bullet or bullets thump into them, they grunt and they're gone.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] If we stop to help the wounded, we'll get shot too. And we won't make it to the beach where we're needed. So we keep waiting forward. My men.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] My, the men from other boats, the entire battalion, what's left of it struggling through the water, holding their rifles over their heads, pushing through toward the beach and into the teeth of all that inflating gunfire. Their courage is incredible. That word only begins to describe it.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Shells exploding, whooshing geysers, machine guns rattling, splat, splat, splat, those little dots in the water, thousands of them moving this way and that. A bullet hits four feet to my right, splat, splat, then bullets hit three feet, two foot, one foot to my right.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I can't see any muzzle flashes from the enemy guns. The Japanese are invisible, just like their bullets. We're being slaughtered by an invisible force. Nothing to see, nothing to shoot at. Not that we would be shooting if we could see them. You don't stand in open water shooting at the enemy. You get yourself to the beach, you take cover, and then you start shooting.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] For that matter, it's not much good at close range either. It's an M1 carbine, a pathetic excuse for a firearm, a weakling with a weakling's punch.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I'm holding it at port arms across my chest as I wade through the water. Maybe there'll be a stop, maybe there'll be a, maybe it will stop a bullet that would otherwise kill me.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I've gone about 100 yards, only 500 yards to go.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] We're taking fire from the front, from both flanks, from the rear.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The rear? What the hell? And that's what you talk about. That's the, that's the, uh,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Some are killed outright. Some are wounded. Some are, well, it's hard to say. Some go quietly. Some noisily. They fall back in the water. They slip under the water. Some flail in the water in their pain and panic, howling and shouting. I keep moving.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] My adrenaline is flowing like an electric current through me, allowing me to do things I wouldn't normally and shouldn't normally do. If I stop to think about what I'm doing, I'd freeze up. I try to track the bullets, the movement and patterns of the enemies traversing fire. The bullets impact start to my left, to my right. The bullets sweeping back and forth. I see no pattern.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] A sickening splat, like an inner tube being snapped across my abdomen, slapping my bare stomach. A sharp stinging sensation. I'm hit, I hear myself say.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] A bullet has struck me nearly dead center below the navel, piercing me above the waterline. I'm gut shot, one of the worst wounds of all. Oh god.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I'm scared. I think, my gosh, this is it. If it happens that you get shot and you don't know how bad the wound, it often happens that you get shot and you don't know how bad the wound is. But when you're hit where I was hit, you know it's bad.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It's a gut wound and you know it's pretty sure thing you're not gonna make it. Very few people survive gut wounds even in the best of circumstances.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I'm in what are arguably the worst of circumstances. If I had been shot on dry land, I might be able to crawl to an aid station. Or my buddies might have patched me up. But I'm in a lagoon. So there can be no crawling and my buddies are forbidden to help me.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] My biggest worry now is that I'll collapse, sink beneath the surface and drown.


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[Assistant] All I wanna do is keep my head above water so I won't drown before I die from a bullet that reamed through me.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I know this isn't rational. What difference does it make how I die? Drowning or dying from getting my innards scrambled by a bullet. Either way I'm a goner, and soon. But I'm not thinking rationally.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And you're happy that right now, he's the kind of guy that's rebellious because he's disobeying the orders. Which the orders are, you keep going. And he looks at you and says, nope. I'm not saying.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And finally they say we're staying with you. Where do you want us to take you? To the beach or to the boat? And you opt for the boat.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The boat's crowded with other wounded marines. Other wounded men are being dragged to the boat by their buddies. Evidently Sullivan and Duffy weren't the only ones who ignored the order to ignore the wounded. The wounded men and the rescuers


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] How did he do that? He must be in torment from his wound, but that didn't stop him from helping me.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I tumble groaning down onto the dock alongside the man with the ravaged face. The deck is covered with the maimed and wounded men, their bodies bandaged and bloody, many writhing in pain, many just groaning just like me.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] This description, I think, is the best description I've ever heard of that kind of combat.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So that's your, that's your, that's the end of the tarot of battle for you.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And you give a great account from all the people that, you know, that were there that got interviewed. Uhm, Dick Stein.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He's, he's pushing and fighting it at, at Tarawa. It's, it's really all taking place at this seawall.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Getting ashore a few seconds later, dick steps ashore. This is what, this now, you're being, you're being, you know, you're being loaded down the Sheraton. Yeah. Momentarily loaded, elated, he said to himself, well they ain't gonna get me now. Then he looked around and his elation evaporated.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Nearby lay a dead marine with a Japanese bayonet protruding from his chest and three dead Japanese soldiers sprawled around him. Dead bodies were everywhere, floating in the water, piling up at the waterline, strewn about the beach. Guys from the second marines who had landed the day before, guys from the eighth marines too, and many Japanese. The beach was strewn with rifles as well as bodies and he took one off of a dead marine.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And then another guy named Hester Hester collected his men and led them back to the seawall.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Well you start talking here about him and him, Hester, and then Murdock.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And you say, you say, Hester, they found Murdoch near a wrecked Amtrak in the mad rush to reach the seawall and jump over it. Duffy somehow got separated from the group and they never saw him again.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Someone else must have hauled him up to the pile of bodies at the water's edge to get him away from the wall.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] During this time someone from the company passed Dick's position and informed that Duffy had been killed. Duffy was a very quiet person, never talked to him much, but a really nice guy.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Which made him an old man in our outfit. He was Oh Boyle's best buddy. Now they were both dead.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] They had to assault each and every Japanese position, making short rushes across open ground through murderous fire. Heavy casualties were the result, but ultimately, Japanese casualties were heavier. In fact, almost total. The Japanese would not yield because their military ethos forbade it. To beat them, you had to kill them.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But the Marines would not quit, and they could not be stopped.


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[Assistant] The initial advantages enjoyed by defenders fighting from a concealment could have but one outcome. Annihilation.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And, and there's also, there's also talk of how like, they would write these letters, but


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] People need to get the book so they can read it for themselves, but the casualty toll was nothing less than catastrophic. In New Zealand, the company had been beefed up with a little more than 200 men to give it an extra punch in the assault. 90 were lost, killed, or wounded in the Bejio Lagoon.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] In other words, nearly half the company was out of action before anyone stepped ashore.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The men Murdoch found on the beach were all exhausted and with a terrible look on their face. That's according to Murdoch. But their shock and exhaustion did not, could not concern him. What I was more interested in was who was alive and who have I got? What have I got?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Progress is eventually made. Toward the middle of the day, Bill noticed that things seemed to be going a little bit better for the Marines. They seemed to be making some progress. Bulldozers had landed by then.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And they pushed up against the pillbox entrances, sealing them and entombing the Japanese inside.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, here's what, here's what Murdoch says as the, as the fighting kinda comes to an end. As they get to the end, all of a sudden.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Marine assault teams, mostly ad hoc assemblages, destroyed the enemy bunkers one after another, killing the Japanese while they were inside or when, when they ran out. The Japanese were literally slain in heaps. As their numbers were reduced, so was the volume and intensity of their fire.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Finally, when John and his men had advanced as far as they could, the battle just sorta petered out. The shooting stopped, bringing silence to their sector of the battlefield, and leaving everyone stunned by the abrupt end to the fighting. They didn't know quite what to do, we just kinda sat there and did nothing.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The next day, 1st Battalion marched over to the pier where the LCVB waited to take them back to the Sheraton. Sheraton.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] On their way, they witnessed a dual flag raising ceremony for the Stars and Stripes and the British Union Jack with a representative from His Majesty's government presiding. The Stars and Stripes went up first, but the Union Jack was given the place of pride and honor on a higher pole and acknowledgement of the British sovereignty over the Tarawa Atoll.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, and I don't know if this one, there's, there's, but that's where I got my copies. So.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, you can get- I have the hardcover and the softcover. You have both? Yes. I don't play around when it comes to getting your books, sir.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The publishing world is very strange. Taking it now to where you get onto the Sheridan.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So now this is, this is, uh, no sooner had my stretcher touched down on the Sheridan's deck that I was whisked away into the operating room, I was one of the first wounded Marines to be treated, and the medical team was fresh and rested and ready to go to work on me. I guess that qualifies as a stroke of good luck.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The doctor spent most of that hour bent over my lower body.


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[Assistant] They repaired my bladder and removed a portion of my large intestine and gave me a blood transfusion. Then they closed my wound and that was that.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I had made it through surgery, but it had been a close call. Dr. Sussex told me that I could not have survived another two hours because of the toxins that were building up inside.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Hold it for me until I return, he said. He assumed that I had gotten a million dollar wound and would be sent home. I fought the same.


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[Assistant] Left unspoken but implicit in what he said was that he didn't think he would be coming home. The sword was probably mine to keep.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I would venture to say that after Tarawa, most second division marines didn't believe they would make it through the war. Cause you're looking at the entire rest of the island campaigns and then you gotta go into mainland Japan. And it's gonna be a bloody fight the whole way.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Murdock took a headcount of B Company using a pre-battle roster for reference, checking off one name after the other from the list.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He had known that the toll would be large, but even he was shocked by the final count. My god, he thought.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, now you guys sail to Hawaii. So you go from, you go from this hell. How long does it take to get to Hawaii? Like a week? Ten days?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The PA, the PA announced that the Sheridan would be proceeding directly to the Big Island. In other words, no liberty on Oahu.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It was just as well. The brass had plans for us, the second division as a whole, and these did not involve a return to the United States. First we would go to the big island to rest, rebuild, and then train for the next operation.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So they send you guys out into the middle of Oahu, uhm.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Okay. You say here, you get the camp set up, you get a little bit of downtime, and then they get you guys right into training. Our training stress, the combined arms approach to warfare.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Eager kids with no combat experience and no idea what they'd gotten themselves into. The rest of us just looked at them and shook our heads. We did know what they had gotten themselves into, and we wondered how they would survive in the battles to come, never forgetting that our own survival thus far was due in large measure to the vagaries of chance and circumstance, and maybe just a little bit to the grace of God as well.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Luck and God's grace were desperately slim reeds on which to hang our hopes. Slimmer still for the replacements because they're inexperienced. We expected that many would die. The odds were against them because they had seen no action. But we also expected to die. The odds were against us because we had seen too much action.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, too, which was previously an all-volunteer force. New and unwanted. And a matter of grave concern for the rest of us. Would the draftees measure up to Marine Corps standards? Would we be able to depend on them in battle? We had our doubts.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] We were wrong to doubt them in battle when the chips were down. They proved that, like volunteers, they were worthy to be called Marines. So you eventually take over a uh,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And again, you cover some of this stuff in good detail in the book, but then, soon enough, it's, you're, you're hitting sci-pain.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It's crazy these vets from Guadalcanal and Tarawa and then do perish in that way.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, but you push it back I guess and then you guys head to Saipan and here we go June 15th 1944 shells rained down on our salt waves kicking up tall columns of water.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Man, Murdock was a serious, like, marine combat leader.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] This is your experience. When my Amtrak reached the reef, we were all crouched low below the sides. There was too much metal flying around the air to risk popping up for a look around. The guys had their heads pulled down between their shoulders and they stared at each other with eyes.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] We big eyes and said nothing. The veterans of Tarawa had been through this before and were probably having a harder time of it precisely because of their prior experience. Because they knew how bad things could get. The new kids were mostly better off because they didn't have a clue.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Certainly they were scared, but they were also fascinated and awestruck by all the noise and commotion. And these emotions blunted their fear. Nothing in their experience had prepared them for this. The live fire exercises in Hawaii were puny by comparison. And so they did not realize that our situation was terrible and likely to get worse.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You can be sure that I was scared but fortunately I had the concerns of an officer to distract me. What wave were you in? What group were you in?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Thus, within the span of a few minutes, John had lost two of his seasoned platoon leaders. Also wounded and put out of action were the second and third battalion commanders. Lieutenant Colonel Henry


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Legendary. Oh yea. And former, he was the former commander of the scout sniper school that you attended. Yea, that's right. And also Lieutenant John, uh, Miller. Lieutenant Colonel John Miller. So both the battalion commanders out of action.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You know, it's, it's, I like bringing up these points in the book where you talk about things like this, uh, while that's all that's happening. You say, meanwhile, I lay in the brush with my men and tried to free myself from the despair that suddenly gripped me. The situation seemed hopeless. It was Tarawa all over again. How, I wondered, are we going to get out of this mess? Exactly my feelings at that time.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, yeaah, you guys are pushing forward and then you guys get a, you guys get kind of a, a skirmish line and then...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The Japanese counterattacked several points along our line. Don Maynes


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Lot of guys, lot of casualties and, and actually at this point there's another casualty and it's a guy by the name of John Murdoch. And this story,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Hit while landing B company, hit while leading B company on a sweep, west of the landing strip, down toward Sharon Konoa.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Then I put the phone back on and I'm running back to the safety in a hole and that's when I got hit by shrapnel in the left leg and the right elbow.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Down and my pants are all wet. And I said, holy shit, I pissed my pants. And the corpsman said, that's not piss, that's blood. That's when I found out I'd been hitting the leg.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And so, see, because I haven't read the entire book, you know, you talk about Murdoch, and I've mentioned that he was a character, and you know, obviously you mentioned that he liked to drink, and one of the people-


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I would say, what's that word, aided him in being an alcoholic and somebody he'd apparently become good friends with because he was a Catholic was the Catholic priest. Father Joe Keyhand. So they were really good friends and they spent a lot of time together and so,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So, so this is uhm, Murdoch continuing.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And by then I was lying down and the guys on the deck called down to me, we'll pick you up in a boom on a stretcher.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I didn't hear a thing. I wasn't feeling any pain. My right hand and arm were numb.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] There's actually another, another one of these big situations that happens where there's a battle at sea.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The, and actually reading your book, I was, I was saying, wow, they did a great job because one thing that I always said to myself, ah, you know,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It's, you know, when some of the firefights, the night firefights, it just flashes and they're like, oh yeah, that's what it's like. There you go. And you captured it in your book. You can't really tell what's going on, but it's bad.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So now you guys are, as you guys are pushing through, you say casualties overall were relatively light.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, here speaking of friendly forces or friendly fire incidents, here you were, I was resting on one knee next to a tree holding my car being upright with a butt plate to the ground when suddenly wham, wham, wham, three big shells exploded over our position.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The shells came not from Japanese artillery, but from a battery of Army 155s.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, still the wound needed treatment. A few minutes later, several hospital jeeps converged on the scene and I talked over one of them. On the way, just 50 yards from me, I passed a large crater containing the remains of several men from weapons platoon who had been playing blackjack when the shell hit their position. They had literally been blown to bits. Several of those men had been my friends since Samoa.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I had served in their unit before being commissioned. I could identify only one of them.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] All in all, the shells from the 155s killed or wounded more than 50 Marines.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And then late on the 7th of July, my third day in the field hospital, doctors and corpsmen went through the wards telling all the walking women to return to the units.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You say that this bonsai, this bonsai resulted in uhm,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] As near as I can determine from what I saw and what I've read, the Japanese lost upward of 4,000 men, some 500 Americans were killed, most of them from the army, the two battalions that were overrun and nearly wiped out. H battery suffered 152 casualties in the attack, 75 killed and 76 wounded.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You were pushing up, uhm, again, this is another, another thing that you passed through. We passed through their positions and deployed to skirmish lines, extending the water's edge and the railroad tracks, the 6 Marines advancing along the, on, along the shore on the 8th and longer right.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Thus arrayed we picked our way slowly through the battle zone, our weapons at the ready. All around the dead, we're thick on the ground in numbers that defied comprehension.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I could recreate the flow and ferocity of the battle, the patterns of the fight and flight by the numbers and positioning of the dead.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] There would be places, pockets of resistance, where bodies were piled on top of bodies, dead Japanese entangled with dead Americans, frozen in attitudes of hand-to-hand combat, clutching each other, plunging bayonets into each other, locked in their death struggles.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Our machine gun positions were tabloids of butchery with bodies of the Japanese heaped in front of positions and bodies of American soldiers slumped over their guns. For men who didn't want to be there, the US Army soldiers had put up a hell of a fight.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Bushes big enough to provide concealment were preemptively blasted into wood, chips, and leaf bits.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now and then, as we advanced across the battlefield, a dead body rose suddenly to throw a grenade or shoot at us. Some Japanese jumped to their feet and tried to run away. We shot them all, just shot them all right down.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] A little, a little over three miles south of Saipan, Santinian. Twelve miles long, six miles across at its widest point. And this was your


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You guys faked it, there was a fake. We did a fake.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] This was for me and many other second division marines, the fourth combat operation in just 18 months. The three previous, Guadalcanal, Tarawa and Saipan had all been difficult, each in its own way, taking an enormous physical and emotional toll on all the survivors. Most of us have been wounded at least once, all of us have been sick. Uhm.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah, yeah. The thing that's interesting about this is, I mean, just you guys having been through everything that you'd been through at this point, I mean, the mentality going into this, you know, you say here, the Air Force could have dropped bushes of purple hearts on our frontline units and every Marine who grabbed one would have deserved it.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, and eventually you say here the Japanese, I mean, and again, this, we're jumping through all kinds of, you know, just crazy combat. And then you get to a point where the Japanese had no, no more fight left in them. They were ready to die. Yeah. If not yet call it quits for the most part. They went over.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The end of the fighting was very abrupt, suddenly we didn't have anything to do. There was no enemy activity in the immediate area. No danger, no shooting. I just sat back and tried to enjoy the situation.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] This wasn't as easy as you might think. I was exhausted and filled with a lingering dread, a sense that I'd used up all my lives.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I had, I had been, become conditioned to wondering whether I was going to survive another day. And then all of a sudden all the causes for concern had vanished. As though I had been given a reprieve from a death sentence. I could hardly believe it. A strange feeling. I didn't have long to dwell on it. A few days later, I received orders to return to the states.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] 32 months after leaving San Diego, I was going home.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Everyone on board, servicemen from every branch returning home, watched in utter silence as the Golden Gate Bridge passed beneath us. I reported to a marine facility and was granted 32 day furlough. One for every month of overseas duty.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So about a year you spend at Quantico, at the basic school, teaching the young Marines.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Here we go, on August 15th, after a night of devastating bombing raids on 8 Japanese cities, the Japanese announced their intention for surrender. For Americans and most of the, and this is after obviously the bomb.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] For Americans and the rest of the world, the announcement signaled the end of World War II, even though the formal surrender didn't take place until 2nd of September. A few weeks later, our classes were terminated and orders were cut by thousands to release men from active duty.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I was asked whether I wanted to stay on and take a regular commission in the Marine Corps. I was tempted. I had started as a private and made it all the way up to captain at age 24. No small achievement.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And there was the potential for further advancement in the post-war core. At first I said yes and signed my, uh, the requisite papers. But after sleeping on it, I changed my mind. The next day I withdrew my papers. Shortly thereafter I was released from active duty.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And, uh, I mean, this, this book is just, like I said, I've read a fraction of it, probably read less than 10% of it tonight.


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[Assistant] Amount of information, amount of detail, the stories are just...


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[Assistant] Yeah. So it says this October on, on 22 November, 1993, the 50th anniversary of the battle for Tarawa.


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[Assistant] Shot in the head while peering over the seawall in Red Beach 2, Anthony had fallen back into John Murdock's arms. Still alive but unconscious, his body twitching, his eyes open but empty. John held him for a brief time.


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[Assistant] We sang the National Anthem, the Marine Hymn, and Amazing Grace.


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[Assistant] There was a presentation of military testimonials. Proclamations were made. John Murdoch gave a talk about Anthony.


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[Assistant] Then presented Anthony's brother with a purple heart, a fitting gesture from a man who comforted Anthony in his final moments of his life. An honor guard fired a 21 gun salute. Taps was played. We all wept. Our tears were shed in both sorrow and joy. There was cause for both. Anthony's life had been short, his dying hard, his glory


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[Assistant] The biographical sketch in the program for the ceremony expressed the feelings well in this regard and serves as a fitting epitaph for every Marine in the Second World War. And here's what it read. If the world had been different, if he had been born at another time,


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[Assistant] Anthony, with his sunshine smile, could have married, raised a family, had grandchildren, and lived a quiet, typically traditional American life.


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[Assistant] An unprepared and unsuspecting United States became a primary target.


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[Assistant] The American people were shocked into action by the Sunday morning arrival of Japanese bombers over Oahu.


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[Assistant] Like hundreds of thousands of other young Americans, Anthony felt compelled to volunteer to serve his country.


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[Assistant] He simply could not stand aside while America was under attack. Anthony gave his life on Tarawa for his country, his corps, and for his fellow Marines.


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[Assistant] He was not a famous hero mourned by millions, extolled in the press, immoralized in magazine articles or books. He was no one special. Just another marine, private first class.


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[Assistant] Semper Fi, brother. You are not forgotten.


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[Assistant] And with that, Dean Ladd has left the building.


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[Assistant] And actually, who has joined us in the building? Looks like Jason Gardner. Jason Gardner's randomly. We are in Spokane, Washington. Spokane? Spokane. Spokane. Spokane. And since you originally linked me up with, uhm, with Dean Ladd, on a, you were on a random flight somewhere.


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[Assistant] And you saw, what was he just wearing, like a Marine Corps hat?


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[Assistant] This is awesome. Just so cool. Sending you texts from the flight. Yeaah. And it's so funny because you and I were just standing out there talking to him. Hey, you know how you get, you know, you and I are used to hearing all of our friends say like,


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[Assistant] So much cooler than we are. Dang it. And that is the most ridiculous.


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[Assistant] What those guys went through is completely ridiculous. And I know, I mean, I've since, you know, with the old breed is kind of the stand, the, the,


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[Assistant] The way that I learned like what those guys went through. Sledge. Eugene Sledge. But this book is just right there with it man. It's right there with it.


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[Assistant] And you're just getting gut shot while you're 500 meters from the beach at Tarawa. Yup.


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[Assistant] Yeah, there's no way you're gonna live and yet you live. And then, and then guess what? You go to Hawaii for six months and then you're hitting the beaches of Saipan.


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[Assistant] Crazy. It's completely insane. And by the way, when he got back, he got back in 40 August of 44.


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[Assistant] One day for every month that he was overseeing. And then he's like, none of those guys thought the war was gonna end. They just got done literally killing every single Japanese except for 17.


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[Assistant] On an island. They all fought to the death. And then they think, okay, there's however many millions left in Japan, and we're gonna have to go kill them all. We're gonna have to kill every single one of those people.


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[Assistant] That's what they were thinking. So he was thinking, cool, I'm gonna be on shore duty back here training marines for a year and then I'll be going back overseas as a company commander or as a battalion XO or whatever. Totally nuts.


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[Assistant] Good. So, anyways, eh, it's, uh, it's so awesome that, first of all that you met him, it's awesome that, I mean, it's, it's just amazing to be able to sit here and talk to these guys. And one of the reasons that we're able to do this is because of the support that is given to us from you, the listener.


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[Assistant] And what we've tried to do is set something up where you can support not only this podcast so that we can continue to go around and talk to the Dean lads of the world and capture their story. But also, while you're doing that, you can also support yourself.


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[Assistant] You know what, if it wasn't for that question, we wouldn't even be connected to origin geese. It was that question, and me telling people to buy origin geese even though I didn't, wasn't connected with them yet.


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[Assistant] Every time I wash them, they get better. They get better. They're so nice. And you know what is coming out right now? The Delta 68 jeans.


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[Assistant] Which are named after the Mekong Delta, which is where our forefathers served in Vietnam and where our forefathers in the SEAL teams wore blue jeans because they were tougher and way cooler.


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[Assistant] They're like lightweight though. So anyways, jeans, uh, you can get those there too. T-shirts, sweatshirts.


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[Assistant] If you want to drink something, uh, for some energy, we'll call it. Sure. Yeah. If you want to drink some, you can try some discipline. Some discipline go, some discipline powder. And right now, I'm completely on this kick of the Jocko Palmer, which is the best thing I've ever made.


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[Assistant] I won't use that word for you, but my wife the other day goes, Hey darling.


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[Assistant] Anyways, joint warfare, don't forget about that.


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[Assistant] Mulk, we already did. Oh, and then warrior kid mulk. For the little kids. So instead of feeding your kid actual poison, actual poison. Which is what?


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[Assistant] So get to work, get some tea too. Winter's coming, get that little, get that little.


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[Assistant] T-shirts, truckers hats, beanies, hoodies, light and heavy.


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[Assistant] Alright, so subscribe to the podcast, Jocko Podcast. There's also some other podcasts. One of them is called the Warrior Kid Podcast, which you may or may not know about. It's for children, it's for parents, it's for everyone in the world. And then we have another podcast, oddly enough now, which is called the Grounded Podcast.


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[Assistant] Right. Yeah, well here's the thing, there's some things that we talk, that you and I talk about, and then that you and I talk about with everyone that we know, that doesn't quite fit in the purview of


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[Assistant] We covered the primary Jocko podcast type stuff from him, but Dean has other information for us. Other things that we talk about that.


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[Assistant] So there you go. So subscribe to those podcasts and also if you want to get some soap, because you probably need soap. In fact, I'm going to go ahead and say you do need soap. Get it from IrishOaksRanch.com from Young Aidan who's making soap on his farm.


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[Assistant] And then also books. You want to exercise your brain.


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[Assistant] So get this book. This book is epic. Faithful Warriors, a Combat Marine Remembers the Pacific War. Like I said, I read 10% of it at most on this podcast.


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[Assistant] So we are clear hot. It's coming out January 14th. And you're probably thinking, oh well I'll wait a little while to order it. And if you think that, you're not getting that first dish. And then I will look at you with shame when I meet you.


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[Assistant] So, no, seriously, uh, leadership strategy and tactics, pre-order it now so the, so that the publisher knows how many to print. We all know that this has been a problem for some people in the past, me included. Way the Warrior Kid, one, two, and three.


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[Assistant] Order those books immediately for your children and for every child that you


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[Assistant] That's awesome. And the teachers, have they been reading it in school with your kids?


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[Assistant] Yes! You know what? That right there, my mission in this world has been accomplished. That there's a classroom in America with a pull-up bar. Every classroom in America should have a pull-up bar. And a couple copies of the word.


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[Assistant] If you want to get after it. And what's interesting about that book is there's no book like it. And my publisher


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[Assistant] What did it do? It outperformed every model of sales that they had created for it. Like even though they're like, well if it really does great it'll be here. It outdid all that. So why? Word of mouth and you all spread the word. So thank you, Disciplinical Freedom Field Man. And then of course there is extreme ownership and the dichotomy of leadership that I wrote with my brother Leif Babin about leadership. Not just in combat, but everywhere.


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[Assistant] Anyway, we have Echelon Front, which is our leadership consultancy, and what we do is solve problems through leadership worldwide. That's what we do. Go to echelonfront.com for details. EF online, since leadership training.


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[Assistant] Can't just be a shot in the arm and then you're good to go. You need to do more persistent training over a longer period of time. That's EF Online.


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[Assistant] Go to yefonline.com. Check it out. We're doing new modules all the time.


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[Assistant] Every muster we've done is sold out. If you want to come to the muster in Sydney, it is a two day.


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[Assistant] Leadership Conference Instruction Seminar that is guaranteed to up your leadership game. You will have pragmatic, actionable things to do that are gonna make you a better leader when you leave. And what does that mean? That means you'll do better in everything in your life. Period. And then we have EF Overwatch where we are taking veterans


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[Assistant] Which one is your most used social media platform?


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[Assistant] Alright, well if you want to talk to Jason, that's him. Echo is at Echo Charles. And I am at Jocko Willing. That's Twitter, Instagram, and on the Fossssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss


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[Assistant] United States Marine Corps for his service and sacrifice and the same obviously goes out to all our servicemen and women out there. Thank you for protecting our freedoms and to our police and law enforcement, firefighters, paramedics, EMTs, dispatchers, correctional officers, border patrol, secret service,


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[Assistant] All first responders, thanks for what you do every day to keep us safe here in our homes.


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[Assistant] And to everyone else out there, never forget.


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[Assistant] Never forget the price that has been paid for our freedom. A price of blood and horror.


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[Assistant] A price of sacrifice and suffering. A price that we cannot fully repay, but what we can do.


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[Assistant] Because Office, I forget which is which, but The Office, the show, and Office Space, one was made to be like, Office Space was made to be the movie version of The Office, or vice versa, I forget which one.


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[Assistant] Yeaah, so it was like, so it might have been vice versa, but basically one was like the movie version of the other.


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[Assistant] Kinda hard to transition, you know, we go through, you know, through this heavy stuff, which is heavy. And now we're gonna talk about, I guess, some more light-hearted stuff.


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[Assistant] Threads. Yeaah. All the way up to the geese. Boom. Yeaah. Yeaah. So not, not, uh, cotton from somewhere else. And then American made. No. American made. American made. From the ground up. Boom. Origin geese. Kind of a


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[Assistant] Cognitive. Don't forget about that. So mental and physical. Okay, what do we got? We got, uh, joint warfare. Which, joint warfare and krill oil, kinda brothers and sisters as far as supplements go. If you, well cousins.


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[Assistant] Cousins. Either way, they're related because they help support your joints, which in my opinion has, has kinda sorted itself out to be the most important supplement.


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[Assistant] For jiu-jitsu and for something else too. So it's multi-purpose is what I'm saying. Also t-shirts. JoggoStore.com. T-shirts, raps.


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[Assistant] 100%. Also, on it, on it.com. Slash Jocko. This is where you can get workout gear. Some cool green supplements as well. A lot of good stuff on there. That's where I get pretty much, not pretty much, 100% my kettlebells. And I got rings of course too. Best workout equipment.


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[Assistant] This is Jocko Podcast number 229 with Echo Charles and me, Jocko Willink. Good evening Echo.


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[Assistant] Little quote for you to kick things off. This is coming, I ran across it the other day. And as I ran across it, I saw some of...


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[Assistant] Little bit of the dichotomy of leadership in there. And it just caught my attention. And it's a quote from General Omar Bradley.


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[Assistant] A general with a good amount of name recognition. Uh, but a general who kind of flew under the radar sometimes. Cause he was competing with some, some big names. You know, he's competing with


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[Assistant] General Patton, he's competing with General Eisenhower, he's competing with General Montgomery, so he kinda flew under the radar sometimes. You know.


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[Assistant] In Randolph County, Missouri. Worked as a Boilermaker. Figured out he could get a free education by going to West Point. So he went to West Point. Graduated in 1915. Same year as Eisenhower, by the way. He was a really good athlete. Baseball star. Could have played pro ball.


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[Assistant] Chose to be in the army. Chose to go and do his commitment to the army. So 1915!


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[Assistant] You're probably thinking World War I, WWI. Well, he actually didn't.


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[Assistant] Go to World War I. You didn't go and fight in World War I. There were mining disputes.


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[Assistant] In the unions, in the, in the mines up in Montana. And they had to activate some army units to send them up there to guard the mines. And that's what he did.


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[Assistant] He did that for a little while, and then he did go to a unit that was getting ready to deploy to World War I.


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[Assistant] The Spanish flu came, which everyone seems to know about the Spanish flu now, and then there was the armistice, and he didn't deploy. So he didn't get any combat action in


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[Assistant] World War I. Thought that that might hurt his career, but he stayed in anyways. Ended up teaching tactics at the infantry school.


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[Assistant] Fast forward through the peace years, uh, May General in 1942, assigned the 82nd Division, then the 28th National Guard Division, eventually worked under General Patton, as the deputy in charge of 2nd Corps, and then took it over himself, led the campaigns in Tunisia and Sicily,


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[Assistant] Uh, Ike Eisenhower selected Bradley to command the first army during Operation Overlord D-Day.


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[Assistant] He commanded the most troops of any general, US general in history. When he took command of the 12th Army Group. 1.3 million troops.


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[Assistant] We covered Ernie Pyle on this podcast. Podcast number 39. His book Brave Men. It was the heavies. One of my favorite lines. Ernie Pyle nicknamed him the G.I. General.


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[Assistant] Cause he was kind of a laid back, down to earth guy, didn't make a spectacle of himself.


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[Assistant] After the war, he ran the VA for a while, the Veterans Administration.


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[Assistant] First ever chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff during the Korean War.


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[Assistant] Retired in 1953 after 38 years of service. I found a- the internet is amazing.


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[Assistant] You know, we talk about the evaluations, the evaluation, the Marine Corps evaluation, the Navy evaluation. I found an evaluation of Bradley written by General Patton. Pretty cool, because it shows


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[Assistant] It shows what type of a person Patton was just in the way he wrote this thing. So it says subject efficiency report through commanding general NATO USA APO 534 to


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[Assistant] Adjutant General, War Department, Washington DC.


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[Assistant] Name and grade of general officer reported on. Omar F. Bradley, lieutenant general. Period covered.


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[Assistant] 1 July 1943 to 8 September 1943, 2 months and 8 days. Duties performed. Commanding General Tukor, 1 July 1943 to 8 September, 19 something, unclear. Manner of performance, superior. Physical activity, superior. Physical endurance, superior. Knowledge of his profession, superior.


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[Assistant] Opportunities have you had for observing him during period covered? Intimate daily contact.


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[Assistant] And 10, of all general officers of his grade personally known to you, what number would you give him on this list?


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[Assistant] G.S. Patton Jr., Lieutenant General, U.S. Army Commanding. So, that's a pretty awesome review.


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[Assistant] The interesting thing is, if you know anything about the history of Bradley and Patton, there's some interesting dynamics there. First of all, they had very different personalities.


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[Assistant] Patton was, you know, flashy and ego, ego driven in a lot of ways and Bradley was not.


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[Assistant] And there's some quotes I pulled from Patton's journal, journals about Bradley. So it's interesting that he can have these right in that glowing, like, evaluation about


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[Assistant] He wants to wait until we can all jump into the fight together, by which time half our men will be, will have the flu or trench foot. I wish he had a little more daring.


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[Assistant] Another one. Bradley is a good officer, but he utterly lacks it. Too bad. The it factor. Echo Charles.


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[Assistant] Next one, Bradley is a man of great mediocrity.


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[Assistant] On the other hand, he has many attributes which are considered desirable in a general. He wears glasses, which I have no idea. I have no idea why that's cool to be a general. He wears glasses. He has a strong jaw. He talks profoundly and says little.


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[Assistant] And he is a shooting companion of our present Chief of Staff, General Marshall. Also, he is a loyal man. I consider him to be among our better generals.


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[Assistant] The sooner they are put into effect, the better it will be for our army. So here we see a little, a little plant in the seed, you know, leading up the chain of command right there.


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[Assistant] That's exactly what I talk about. Plant the seed, let them think it's their own idea.


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[Assistant] But because it's patenting, cause you got a little bit of that ego that kicks in.


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[Assistant] He also wrote this, I do not wish any more of my ideas to be used without credit to me. Which is what happens when I give them orally to Bradley. How's that for short sighted? That's sad to read.


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[Assistant] Little bit sad to read. Another one where ego gets the best of Patton. He says Courtney Hodges and Omar Bradley both received a Distinguished Service Medal for their unsuccessful defense of the bulge. I did not receive one for successfully defending it.


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[Assistant] So, clearly these guys had a, you know, an interesting relationship.


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[Assistant] General Bradley also wrote a book and it's, from what I gather,


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[Assistant] His aide-de-camp did most of the writing, which I'm not saying that's a horrible thing, cause writing is a, is a mechanical thing that you have to do. And if you can get someone to catch your ideas and do it well, then it's fine.


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[Assistant] But the book was released in 1951, it's called A Soldier's Story. It's a 600 page book.


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[Assistant] Details his experiences in the army. Obviously, especially in World War II. And I'm sure we're gonna cover that book at some point. We're not doing it today.


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[Assistant] But, you know when I, after I read that quote about him,


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[Assistant] And, you know, just talking about leadership and kind of the dichotomies that are there. I remember this short piece that I have and I got a bunch of these little short things in a certain file folder in my computer. And they're old too, I've been collecting them for a long time.


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[Assistant] What's the name of that file? It's, uh, Books and PDFs.


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[Assistant] I have this thing, books and PDFs, that I just download, I save them into books and PDFs, I got a lot of them. We've covered a bunch of them too, on this podcast. So,


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[Assistant] General of the Army, Omar N. Bradley, this article is first published in a winter 1972 issue of Parameters, which is the magazine of the U.S. Army War College. Editors note, General to the Army,


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[Assistant] While he was at Carlisle, he addressed the Army War College faculty and students on the subject of leadership. His address contained observations that were gleaned during a long and significant career. A careful reading of his remarks gives us some insight into the qualities that made General Bradley the great soldier and human being that he is.


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[Assistant] General Bradley's thesis is that leadership is an intangible that involves a constant interplay between the leader and the lead. When this interplay is successful, we have the ingredients for great accomplishment. So there you go. Kicking into it.


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[Assistant] All of you here this evening are leaders. I am pleased to meet you. What you do...


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[Assistant] May well dignify the past explained today and secure for all of us tomorrow.


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[Assistant] Perhaps I can touch upon a few factors that will underscore the value of good leadership. Leadership is an intangible. No weapon


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[Assistant] That somebody asked for the definition of pornography. And the Supreme Court Justice said, I can't give you a definition, but I know it when I see it. Something like that.


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[Assistant] It's a weird thing, right? Cause leadership, if you're gonna define it specifically,


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[Assistant] It's kind of the same answer, right? Look, I can't tell you exactly what it is, but I know it when I see it. And you see different people do it differently.


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[Assistant] In leadership strategy and tactics, I give someone talking about pride.


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[Assistant] And the same con- the same sentence about pride depending on who is saying it and what context it is.


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[Assistant] For instance, that guy's full of pride, right? Or that guy's full of pride. You know what I mean? Like, that's the same sentence. But it means two completely different things.


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[Assistant] And if you know how to program the machine, you can get quick and accurate answers. But, how can you include leadership?


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[Assistant] And morale, which is affected by leadership, into your programming.


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[Assistant] Let us never forget the great importance of this element, leadership. And while we use computers for certain answers,


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[Assistant] Let us not try to fight a whole war or even a single battle without giving proper consideration to the element of leadership. Leadership is the most important thing on the battlefield. Your little calculator over there.


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[Assistant] We're gonna be covering a podcast shortly about the creation of Top Gun.


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[Assistant] And same thing, there's some people that would do the calculations of this, this aircraft versus that aircraft and think, well, this aircraft is a superior aircraft, it will win. How many times


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[Assistant] Is, is that wrong? What are they not calculating? They're not calculating the human element.


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[Assistant] Where on paper, everyone thought person A was gonna win, and person B wins.


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[Assistant] Because the human element, they don't calculate it. So how can we expect to calculate what's going to happen in combat without trying to figure out what implication leadership has on it?


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[Assistant] Continuing on, another element to be considered is the man to be led.


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[Assistant] And with whose morale we are concerned. I am constantly reminded of this point by a cartoon which hangs over my desk at home which depicts an infantryman with his rifle across his knees as he sits behind a parapet.


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[Assistant] Above him is the list of the newest weapons science has devised. The newest weapons science has devised and the soldier behind the parapet is saying, but they still haven't found out the substitute for me. So, there's a human beings. Of course,


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[Assistant] With this particular group of service personnel, I am considering leadership as it applies to a military unit.


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[Assistant] However, having been associated with industry for some time now, I find it difficult to completely separate the principles of military and industrial leadership. They have much in common. And he retired in 1953, this is 1971. He worked with some companies, I know he was the, like the chairman of


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[Assistant] He was the chairman of that, so that's a big company. So he understood the same thing that


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[Assistant] We now know to be true. And that's a strong statement. Did I say it? Yes I did. We know to be true.


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[Assistant] I couldn't have told you this 10 years. The day I retired from the, from the Navy, I couldn't have told you that military and civilian leadership are the same. I couldn't have answered that question. I didn't know it. I didn't know the answer.


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[Assistant] It wasn't until I started working with civilian companies that I said, oh, these are the same, the same principles employed in both situations. And that's what Omar Bradley is saying here. He says they have much in common, they have more than much. They have a lot in common.


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[Assistant] I'd go so far as to say they have everything in common. But there's differences. But I'll tell you, the differences between


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[Assistant] Leading an Army platoon, leading a Marine Corps platoon, those are, there's little differences there. Are the same differences between leading a gas station,


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[Assistant] I used to say that about seal platoons. Cause like, the difference between a seal platoon and another seal platoon are the same differences that you find. There's just gonna be differences in those situations. The principles don't change. The principles don't change leading a construction site. The principles don't change leading a manufacturing line. The principles don't change leading a Girl Scout troop. Leadership is leadership.


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[Assistant] Moving on. In selecting a company in which to invest our savings, we often


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[Assistant] Give primary consideration to the company with good leadership.


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[Assistant] In similar manner, a military unit is often judged by its leadership.


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[Assistant] I'm here to tell you, if you're going to invest in a company,


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[Assistant] The number one thing you should look at is what's the leadership like. Because if they have a great product, groundbreaking product, but they have horrible leadership, it doesn't matter.


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[Assistant] When we work with big investment groups, sometimes they're wanting us just to tell them, do an assessment.


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[Assistant] Make an assessment. What is this leadership pod like? What are these humans like?


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[Assistant] Are they good leaders? Do they have capabilities? Do they have potential? Are they bad? Like those are the questions.


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[Assistant] Projecting power. That's an interesting concept. And look, I'd love to tell you, well, you know, that's no, you don't need to project, but if you dig a little bit deeper on that statement.


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[Assistant] Which he talks about later, but I think that that projection of power and an energizing power.


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[Assistant] That's what he's talking about, which coordinates and marshals the best efforts. You've seen this before, right? Let's just look at, uh, uh, uh.


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[Assistant] Kind of a generic situation. You see a group. They're not really focused. They're not really making anything happen. And all of a sudden the leader steps up. Takes control.


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[Assistant] Exhibits that power and they, and marshals those people to move in the same direction. That's what leadership is.


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[Assistant] And let's think about that, right? If you project an image of success at all time, when are you projecting your vulnerability? When are you projecting your humility? Yeah. Right? If you're just walking around by the, the, the, the Merck. Sure. Right? And you're rolling. Sure. With the Rolex.


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[Assistant] Rolling with the Merc and the Rolex. Rejecting success.


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[Assistant] But I don't, I don't know, I don't necessarily, matter of fact I don't agree with that.


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[Assistant] I got a better idea. If you want to be successful, why don't you be humble? Why don't you step up and work hard?


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[Assistant] The reaction response, look, if you're a leader and people don't react correctly,


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[Assistant] You're failing. He should not have to impose authority.


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[Assistant] The greatness of a leader is measured by the achievements of the lead. This is the ultimate test of his effectiveness.


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[Assistant] You know I think he brushes up against a lot of stuff.


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[Assistant] And this is like my third time reading through this today. And I keep, I keep seeing little connections, right? I keep seeing little, where he's brushing up against really important things and kind of talking about them. Talking about them kind of passes through them, like mentions them.


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[Assistant] And some of them are perfect, you know? He should not have to impose authority, right? That's, that's, that's obvious. It's almost like he's uncomfortable saying it.


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[Assistant] There's a little bit of a lack of explanation behind that.


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[Assistant] We say, hey, you want to instill confidence in your people. Great! Thank you.


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[Assistant] That's, that goes without saying. How do we actually do it? Right? How do we actually do it? How do you instill confidence in people? Oh, how about you give them something that they can handle?


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[Assistant] Okay, that's a good thing. How about we take our team and we go out and we accomplish a pretty simple, straight forward objective and our confidence goes up a little bit. And then we handle a more complicated one and we keep doing that. And then we give subordinate leaders things. You see what I'm saying? This idea of just, you know, making people confident, instilling confidence in your followers, great!


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[Assistant] That is, that is why I wrote Leadership Strategy and Tactics. Cause those questions right there,


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[Assistant] Build a relationship with your boss. That's great, Jaco. How do I do it?


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[Assistant] How am I supposed to do that? I was on EF online the other day, and I said, I said, Jamie?


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[Assistant] Cause I was talking to someone, I said, I got the name, I got my next book. And she was like, oh great. Cause she's always mad cause I'm doing too much.


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[Assistant] Yeaah. Yeaah. So I'll get, I'll get working on it. Get cracking!


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[Assistant] Maybe it'll just be a little, uh, maybe it'll just be a little short little handbook. Couple techniques for the troops out there.


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[Assistant] Cause you get to see that what's interesting for you is you see maneuvering happening. Yea. On multiple different fronts.


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[Assistant] And I sit here and tell you, hey, this is what's happening over here with this company. This is what the move is going to be. Watch how it unfolds and you're like, okay. And then you watch and you go, okay. Makes sense. Yes. Yes. All right. Continuing on.


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[Assistant] Too frequently we use the words leader and commander synonymously.


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[Assistant] We should not forget that there are far more staff officers, staff officer assignments than there are command billets. And a good staff officer can and should display the same leadership as a commander.


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[Assistant] While it takes a good staff officer to initiate an effective plan, it requires a leader to ensure that the plan is properly executed. This is good stuff that we're about to dive into.


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[Assistant] That is why you and I have been taught that the work of collecting information, studying it, drawing a plan and making a decision is 10% of the job.


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[Assistant] Seeing the plan through is the other 90%. A well-trained officer is one who can serve effectively either as a staff officer or as a commander. So by a staff officer, they mean the guy that's coming up and helping, coming up, put together the plan and going through the logistics of it all. That's the person, that's the, that's the staff officer and then there's the person that makes it happen, that executes it. That's the commander. It's interesting to think this goes back to


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[Assistant] What we were talking about on the last podcast where I was saying, look, you're your commander and you're your troops, right? You're both of those things.


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[Assistant] So you can come up with great ideas in your little head.


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[Assistant] Beautiful plans. Amazing plans. Can you imagine how many people come up with plans that are actually freaking awesome?


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[Assistant] Think about that. That is a, that is a graveyard. A massive


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[Assistant] They come up with these staff officers coming up with great plans. Super. Good job.


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[Assistant] Unless that commander can get the troops in your head to execute it as no value whatsoever.


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[Assistant] And, and by the way, and we've talked about this, that idea by itself is zero value.


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[Assistant] Yeah, it definitely happens a lot and it paints the reality and what's interesting you ever heard the term idea guy?


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[Assistant] That guy's an idea guy, meaning like, hey, that guy can't really make anything happen. You can sit around here and spout off good ideas, that's great. So funny. That's great, but you don't actually execute on any of them.


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[Assistant] What do I think should happen? Quite honestly, I guess in a perfect world, that person that came up with the idea and didn't execute it, he's paying the price for not making it happen. And the price is you watch somebody else, you know, go and, and do well with your idea because you didn't execute it.


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[Assistant] If you don't have, you said two things, you don't have the capability of executing, which is a little bit different than not having the will to execute, right?


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[Assistant] Yeah, and there's a weird thing there, because there's also people that don't have any good ideas, but that are really good at execution.


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[Assistant] So what I recommend you do is you form up your team where you have people that have ideas and people that can execute those ideas.


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[Assistant] So you compliment each other. You work with someone that can actually make things happen. I couldn't make this podcast. I didn't know how to press record.


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[Assistant] I could sat there for five years with this idea. And someone else would have come out. Maybe I would have told somebody and they would have been like, I'm gonna execute on that.


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[Assistant] What did I do? I actually said, oh, I don't have the capability to execute this by myself. Fine. Echo Charles, do you know how to make a podcast? Yes, I can figure it out. Cool. We're making a podcast. That's an example, right? I can't execute it by myself.


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[Assistant] And it doesn't matter to me. I'm not caught up on the fact that, cause there's people that sit on ideas.


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[Assistant] I've signed so many NDAs for people to tell me their brilliant ideas. And I go, yea, so I won't steal it. And it's like, okay, cool. Very few of them.


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[Assistant] I feel bad, people listening to this going, you cited an idea. There's some good ideas out there, right? But a lot of them are, number one, they're real obvious, you know? I've had people hit me, hey man, I'm already doing that, or hey, that's in the works, or whatever, cause it's just, sorry, you know?


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[Assistant] Uhm, but that's a classic example. Look, I know I can't execute- I'm not gonna say- You know how long I sat on the idea of having a podcast? Not very long.


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[Assistant] I wanna have one. Who can help me execute this? Echo Charles. Boom.


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[Assistant] But it would probably be out a different proportion than you think. Cause people with ideas always think that they, they think that the idea is the hard part.


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[Assistant] Right. Right. Without ideas there's nothing. However, they're both equally important. But the idea usually gets less.


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[Assistant] In the investment world, your good idea gets you like 10%. It doesn't get you 90%. A lot of people think their ideas should get them 90%. It doesn't get you 90%. It gets you 10%, it gets you 15%.


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[Assistant] It's so extreme that it doesn't make it doesn't make the point you need to think of something a little bit better


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[Assistant] Yeah, you know what else is interesting is a lot of times the first company that has an idea and invests in it and pushes it, a lot of times they aren't the ones that are actually successful with that, with that idea.


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[Assistant] It takes another someone to take it to the next level. Uhm, the MP3 players.


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[Assistant] But if people hit me with good ideas, I will take care of them. You know?


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[Assistant] Uh, I can recall a former vice president of one of the companies with which I am associated. He would formulate some good plans but never followed up to see that his plans got the expected results.


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[Assistant] Your idea. This is now, see now I'm starting to get mad. Because, because it does bother me when people just want to throw out ideas and they don't push them to completion. That's, that's, that's unsat. That's unsat.


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[Assistant] When you get into these hypothetical scenarios where the person is basically not really creating the idea for the purpose of being executed, maybe that's the line.


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[Assistant] Like how would I even know who you are, you're not, you don't even step up, you don't leave a trail of, hey, that connects you to this idea. Yeah. So it's no factor, actually. It's a zero factor. The person's just unsat.


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[Assistant] I said, just remember that you get $1.67 for making your plan and issuing the order and $140 for seeing that it's carried out.


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[Assistant] Yeah, you need people like that. And I'll tell you, this is another thing that will go in the next book.


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[Assistant] Well, maybe not the next book. It'll go into the next ancient technique book. Ancient technique will be getting things, getting the troops to execute the plan.


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[Assistant] Like hey, we all know that it sucks that if your team isn't doing what they're supposed to do, how do we actually get them to do it?


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[Assistant] Right? What are the leadership strategy and tactics, which, some of which I do talk about in leadership strategy and tactics, how you get the people to actually get the job done that you want them to do.


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[Assistant] You remember that video that I was in where I was talking about the- Yeah.


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[Assistant] Ancient masters. Yes, the ancient masters and I said something where you said to me, I could tell you were reaching for a word.


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[Assistant] Because that, those videos, that particular video,


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[Assistant] She says, you know, so tell me what you do to get up in the morning.


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[Assistant] And I said, well what I do is I set my alarm clock and when it goes off I get out of bed. Which is my standard answer I give a thousand times.


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[Assistant] She said something along the lines, and she was super cool. She said something along the lines of, no, but I mean, I think my producers, can you give my producer more than that?


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[Assistant] And that's when I went into this whole thing. But it was just off the top of my head.


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[Assistant] But I got stuck for a word and the D delivered for me. Came through. Yes. So now there's going to be a whole book connected to that. See that? Levels. Layers. Alright, continuing on.


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[Assistant] I have known commanders who were not too smart, but they were very knowledgeable about personnel and who knew enough to select the very best for their staffs.


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[Assistant] Remember, a good leader is one who causes or inspires others, staff or subordinate commanders to do the job. Boy.


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[Assistant] I've known commanders who are not too smart, but they were very knowledgeable.


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[Assistant] I know there's all kinds of like literature about this kind of thing, but there's different kinds of intelligence, right? Absolutely different kinds of intelligence. And one of the least most important types of intelligence is book smart. When it comes to operating in the real world.


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[Assistant] One of the least, least important types of intelligence is, hey, I can memorize this for a test or I can understand these concepts. If you can't...


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[Assistant] Especially if you're smart enough to go, you know what, I'm not that smart, but I got, I got Fred over here.


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[Assistant] He's got some brain horsepower. I'm gonna bring him on the team. I'm not gonna put him up in front of the troops because he fumbles around with his words.


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[Assistant] But, I'm gonna have him going through my plan line by line, checking the numbers, making sure we're good to go.


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[Assistant] Furthermore, no leader knows it all. Although sometimes you find one who seems to think he does.


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[Assistant] A leader should encourage the members of his staff to speak up if they think their commander is wrong. He should invite constructive criticism. It is a grave error for the leader to surround himself with a YES staff.


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[Assistant] No yes men. Leadership strategy and tactics. Do not surround yourself with yes men. Speaking of ideas that have been stolen. Omar Bradley. I stole that idea, I guess, and put it in a book.


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[Assistant] General George C. Marshall was an excellent exponent of the principle of having his subordinates speak up. When he first came to Chief Staff


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[Assistant] When he first became chief of staff of the army, the secretariat of that office consisted of three officers who presented orally to General Marshall, the staff papers or studies coming from the divisions of the general staff. I was a member of that secretariat.


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[Assistant] When we inquired if we might ask why, he said, you haven't disagreed with a single thing I've done all week.


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[Assistant] We told him it just so happened that we were in full agreement with every paper that had been presented that we knew he wanted.


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[Assistant] And that we would add our comments to anything that we considered should be questioned. The very next day we presented a paper as written and then expressed some thoughts which in our own opinion made the recommendation, recommended action questionable. General Marshall said,


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[Assistant] Now that is what I want. Unless I hear all the arguments against an action, I am not sure whether I am right or not.


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[Assistant] You don't want to surround yourself with those people that are just going to tell you that you're right. And you know, you feel that or you see that with uh, the, what are they, celebrities.


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[Assistant] Right? That surround themselves with people that just tell them, hey, you're the greatest, you're super, you can do whatever you want. And then you watch them on the downward spiral of destruction. They need someone going, hey!


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[Assistant] I, you, you might be able to get away with it, but you're not gonna get away with it for long. And it's gonna be hanging over your, like, that doesn't happen. They get surrounded by people that just blindly support them.


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[Assistant] So you're saying, you're saying that someone may just by small decision after small decision after small decision over time, they just end up getting rid of everyone that gives them any objections. I think that's exactly what happens. I think that's why you have to proactively


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[Assistant] Make sure you've got people on your team that are gonna push back, you know, and I just was on the EF online today. I was talking about the fact that I was hyper paranoid.


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[Assistant] About making sure I took input from other people. There was the, when the SEALs went into Panama, they went into Petia Airfield.


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[Assistant] Rough oper-operation. Lost four seals.


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[Assistant] And I worked for a guy that was there. He was, he was on the boats that, that put the seals in. And so he had been through the whole planning process and everything. And I,


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[Assistant] I asked him, I said, you know, what happened? He explained to me what happened tactically.


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[Assistant] On the ground. And I, I was kind of, okay, I get that. I was, I said, but how did you, how did that plan? Cause the plan,


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[Assistant] Seemed like it had some, some violations of sort of fundamental, uhm, like normal tactics that Seals use.


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[Assistant] And he just said that there was a couple guys that kind of were, no, this is what we're gonna do and this is what's gonna work. And there wasn't a lot of pushback against it.


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[Assistant] That it was really critical that you want pushback and that you listen to it because if you know all those seals and you know those heroic guys that died on that airfield, if


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[Assistant] If a plan can get through all those guys, all those seals, then...


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[Assistant] That you're happy about, you're fired up, you know? I, I know where you're going with this, and you're like saying how hard it is. I, I, I am so conditioned at this point.


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[Assistant] To be paranoid. And I was trying to figure out where that came from in my head and it came from that situation, from hearing that guy who ended up, I ended up working for hearing him explain to me, hey, there wasn't enough pushback.


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[Assistant] And we went forward with a plan that not everyone agreed with. And you think- I thought to myself, I'm never gonna let- So at this point, I come up with a plan for anything, which normally, as you know, I try not to. I try to let everybody else come up with a plan. But, sometimes I do come up with a plan.


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[Assistant] And I'm so comfortable with someone saying, hey, I don't like that. It doesn't have any impact on me whatsoever. It's so easy for me to say. Actually, great point. Didn't think of that.


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[Assistant] After seal platoon, after seal platoon.


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[Assistant] There was one major change. The only, the most significant change in the piece.


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[Assistant] And I said, hey, I appreciate the feedback, I'm not changing that thing.


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[Assistant] And it wasn't because of ego, it's like, okay, I read it five times and said, you know what? That absolutely needs to be in there.


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[Assistant] And I saw her perspective and said, you know what? I get where she's coming from. But this ties everything together. And I think that's what I didn't do a good job explaining to her.


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[Assistant] You have to at least be open to it. You have to at least be open to it.


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[Assistant] I have to actually strongly be able to defend my position and if I can't defend my position then you're probably right.


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[Assistant] My, just like I say, well, my goal is to listen to.


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[Assistant] If, if you and I are working together and I'm in charge and we're going to attack a target, my goal is to have you come up with a plan. That's my absolute goal.


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[Assistant] When you come to me with a plan, I'm not looking at it what's wrong with it. I'm saying what's right with it.


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[Assistant] I like it. I like your plan better than what I thought I was gonna think.


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[Assistant] When you bring me a piece of, when I bring you a piece of writing and you give me feedback, my goal is to go, okay, your feedback is correct.


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[Assistant] And I'm wrong. And unless it just pains me to change something, then I'm gonna lean towards your recommendation.


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[Assistant] I was listening to uh, Brian Koppelman on Tim Ferriss' podcast. Brian Koppelman.


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[Assistant] And David Levine are the writers of the show, Billions. Yes sir. Have you heard of this show?


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[Assistant] There's two things that he said. Number one, if he's gonna give somebody something for feedback on something that he's written,


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[Assistant] You don't give, you don't give someone their completed project and say, hey, can you give me some feedback on this? Cause I already finished it.


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[Assistant] What you're really asking, if I say, hey Echo, I wrote this book, can you give me some feedback on it?


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[Assistant] It's sort of a bad thing. I have to say, hey Echo, this is just a draft.


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[Assistant] And then he had some response of saying something like, do you want, do you want me to read it?


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[Assistant] So those are, you gotta get that humble brain going if you want to ask people for feedback in anything. And it stings every single time. This is the way it works.


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[Assistant] With what is about to be done is of limited value and perhaps should be shifted to some other place where he might occasionally have an idea. So if you're just in agreement all the time, I don't need you. I don't need you.


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[Assistant] As I used to say, once a decision is made, you execute it as if it was your own.


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[Assistant] If you don't really agree with it, check a couple things. Number one, if Echo comes up with a plan,


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[Assistant] Yes, I need to check my ego. Because I would say upwards of 90%. 90% of the time, the only reason I disagree is because of my ego. Because I got some little idea and I think my way would be better.


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[Assistant] And even if my way is better, it's not drastically better. Because we're both fighting for the same cause.


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[Assistant] Hey, uh, we wanna execute this way. And someone says, hey, that's a really horrible way to do it. It's gonna be unsafe for the team members and it's gonna not, it's gonna lose money.


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[Assistant] He goes, wait, wait a second, what are you talking about? Explain this to me. How is it unsafe and how are we going to lose money?


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[Assistant] A really bad situation, and I hate to use the word catastrophic, but certainly if you see a catastrophic problem, then you go, hey, we cannot do this. This is not good.


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[Assistant] That idea of executing as if you believe it, as if it's your own, which is what you should do, you need to have those conversations. Listen. Put your ego in check.


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[Assistant] And then if it's close enough, you go, Roger that, boss, I'm on board with the plan, let's go execute it. And you do execute it as if it's your own. No factor.


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[Assistant] Continuing on, I don't want to over emphasize leadership of senior officers.


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[Assistant] So he doesn't want to just talk about senior officers. My interest extends to leaders of all ranks. I would caution you to remember that an essential qualification of a good leader is the ability to recognize, select and train junior officers.


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[Assistant] I would like to quote from a book entitled Born at Reveille.


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[Assistant] Written by Colonel Red Reader. Colonel Reader was on a trip for General Marshall.


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[Assistant] And one of his assignments was to inquire into junior leadership.


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[Assistant] of his conversation with Colonel Bryant Moore on Guadalcanal.


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[Assistant] Be leaders. And they must be alert enough to establish straggler lines and stop this thing.


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[Assistant] And I need to do, I try to research this and order the book. The book is actually for sale. It's called Born in Reveille. It got some interesting reviews. Seems like a good book what they say. I guess it's written in some offensive language in modern era. So.


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[Assistant] But I, because I wasn't really a 100% the leaders must be leaders and that they must be alert enough to establish straggler lines and stop this thing. I guess he's talking about


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Heat exhaustion, right? He must be. Straggler lines are lines of people that aren't ready to fight and stop this thing. I'm assuming he's talking about the heat exhaustion. So it goes on, and this is why I think that's what it means. The men have been taught to take salt tablets, but leaders don't see to this. Result? Heat exhaustion. The good leaders seem to get killed. The poor leaders get the men killed.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The big problem is leadership and getting the shoulder straps on the right people.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] We put these guys, we put, I put my, I put the seals going on deployment through training like that where you could see them break. You could see them not be able to handle it. Or, what's more important, they wouldn't be able to handle it day one.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Day two, they'd be a little bit better. Day three, they'd be a little bit better. Day four, they'd be a little bit better. By the end of a six month work up,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] They're actually one of the people that can make these- make these things happen.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So it's not just about finding the good patrol leaders, it's about training them.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] For this guy talking, for General Moore talking about this, or Colonel Moore.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Having to get rid of about 25 officers, I'm gonna go ahead and I'll limb here. And I don't know how many officers he went through, but some of those officers could have been trained.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Could have been trained, could have been prepared, could have been molded, could have been, could have been educated, could have been tested prior to going into combat, and he probably would have done better than, than having to get rid of 25 of them.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] What then are the characteristics, what then are the distinguishing qualities of a leader?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] There are many essential characteristics that he must possess, but I will mention a few that come to mind as perhaps the most important. First, he must know his job without necessarily being a specialist in every phase of it.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] A few years ago it was suggested that all engineers, all engineering subjects be eliminated from the required studies at West Point. I objected. For example, bridge building is especially for engineers. Yet, I think every senior officer should have some idea of what is involved.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So first, know your job. You have to know everything about it. I didn't know the sniper weapons as good as the snipers did. I didn't know the radio as good as the radio man did.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I didn't know the route as good as the point man did, but I knew enough about him.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Continuing on. Specialties dominate almost every problem faced by the military today.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] By the, but faced today by the military leader or the business manager. This individual must get deeply enough into his problem that he can understand it


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Thomas J. Watson of IBM once said that the genius of an executive is the ability to deal successfully with matters he does not understand.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So you, you should be interested in what is happening. You must get around and show interest in what your subordinates are doing even if you don't know much about the technique of their work.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And you make these, when you are making these visits, try to pass out praise when due, as well as corrections or criticism.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That's an interesting one. It's very interesting.