[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] How are you feeling? Definitely not supremely confident, but I was feeling good and knowing the track, obviously I think it was a big bonus for me. I think at the same time, you know, Yuki's kind of grew up on that track, uhm, or he grew up there.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I knew that he was going to be extremely fast, but I was excited for that track. I think more excited just because Formula One on Suzuka, it's like the perfect combination of.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Of Karen track. And I think because I knew the track as well from super formula, I was, I would say a bit more confident, but the thing is going into any of these weekends, I definitely wasn't confident into any of them. I knew it was going to be always very, very tough and.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Didn't start from square one each weekend, but it was definitely a bit of a reset going to each, each track. And it was always a build up. And I think that's why I could say I was pretty tricky as well, just because of the sprint layout of the weekends, all the others, you know, Japan included, I basically had all that practice time to build up.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Difficult, but to be honest, it wasn't, definitely wasn't an issue for us. We were there pretty much straight away in sector one. To be honest, I think a lot of it comes from the stuff I've done in Japan this year in Super Formula, the cars.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Very strong and high speeds. You know, the biggest thing about stepping into Formula One is getting used to a car with that much downforce. And, uh, I think you don't quite get that from Formula Two. And I think that's a really big step. But with, with Super Formula, I think that made a big difference because to be honest, your heart rate's very high, but at least the speed was, was there pretty much straight away.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But yeaah, I, I mean, I agree. Do you enjoy it? I think so. The thing is, I, I, I raced Yuki from quite, you know, quite young. I raced him when I was 17 years old, I think. We started racing each other 16, 17. So uhm, it's different when you're racing somebody that you know.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Um, there's more trust. There's more trust. The thing is with Formula One, because everybody is.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It's the elite, you know, class. Some drivers are more aggressive than others, but you at least know there's always a higher level of trust than other categories, let's say. So, but obviously when it's somebody, you know, you know more about how they race. And I think that helped at the start of the race, but it was very close for sure. It was literally all the way up until the safety car was still side by side.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Did you touch? No, I don't think we did. No, nowhere to be honest. It was very close, but uhm, it was on the limit. But what about?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Everybody to be fair has been very, I mean outside of the car, been very welcoming and nice, which has been really cool. And, and, um, I think something that I maybe didn't expect so much. I mean, I haven't raced obviously everybody, but there's definitely a difference with guys like Fernando.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] His car placement is just very, very clever. He's very experienced and it comes out every time you're racing him.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Even in, we had like a free practice session in Monza where it was at the end of the session, we were wheel to wheel and guys like that are just, who are that experienced always seems to put their car in the, in the right place.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Did he talk to you afterwards? A little bit. I think I've spoken to most, most of the drivers. Um, obviously Fernando, guys like Fernando Lewis, guys that I grew up watching when I, when I was a kid. So it's quite cool to, to be able to speak with them. But at the end of the day, now I just want to be racing these guys.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But it wasn't that much tougher. I honestly, Singapore, the last...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Like 20 laps of Singapore were really, really tough because I was, my tyres were quite old and I knew I had, I had Red Bulls coming at me and I knew they were catching me like two seconds a lap. And then I had Alex on fresh tyres as well coming. Basically it's, it's quite a tricky situation when you know in about five laps time, you're going to be in a scrap with somebody.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And it's trying to work out exactly how you're going to make this work and how you're going to keep the cars behind and try and make the most of it. So Singapore was a bit unique just because it was an absolute battle for the last 10 laps. I was constantly wheel to wheel with another car.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And mentally on a street circuit, it's so draining trying to be perfect all the time. Whereas Qatar was.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So physical, I was just ultimately basically even for me, I was pretty much on my own the whole race, but it was just such a physical race and nobody said it was going to be like that. I think we knew it was going to be like that. We go to Singapore early because we know it's a tough race. We acclimatize, we train there. Qatar was just a normal sort of preparation for the weekend.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And it was just an absolute shock to the body that like 25 laps in, you know, it was seriously tough. Did you drink from a water bottle or? I did a lot of hydrating before the weekends, but I've always, because I haven't driven that much in Formula One, I'd never used drinks through before. The first time I tried to use it was Zandvoort.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And I had an absolute nightmare sprayed all over your face. Basically when I went to use the tube.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So we're like five laps in to the race, I think. There's so much going on, right? I'm like learning this car and slick tires. I'd never driven all weekend on slicks. It was the start of a grand prix. So there's obviously a lot going on and I thought I wasn't even thirsty. I didn't even know why I did it because it was five laps in. So I'm like, I'm just going to.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Give the drink tube a go, and obviously it gets stuck in my nose and I can't get it out.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Three laps go by, four laps go by and this, and I'm stressing now because I'm thinking, am I going to have to do the whole race with the strength troops stuck in my nose? Thankfully a safety car came out quite early on. We had a safety car.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And I could reach up and basically grab it and I didn't touch it for the rest of the race.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But that was my first experience with it, so I've always struggled using it in the race. I don't know why, but, so for guitar, I only used it in the pit lane.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Obviously, luckily we had a couple of stops. We had to do three stops, but I definitely didn't drink as much as I, as I needed. And also it, you know, five laps and it's hot. It's basically like drinking, like drinking tea. What is the biggest thing you've learned during these five races? To pick one thing, to narrow it down to one thing.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It's tricky. There's been so much in Formula One. You have a lot more time, so there's a lot more time goes into.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] A lot less track time means that in qualifying you still can't have learning a little bit here and there, but in F1 by the time you get to qualifying, everybody is in a position where they just know exactly what to do on each tire set, where to find the time, how to put the car on the limit, and it's so close that


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That was, took a little bit of time to get used to. Yeah, this is a lot of, a lot of things.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I don't know. Truthfully, I don't know. I don't know if I'll get to drive again and if it is, I don't know when it will be. I mean, what does 24 hold for you? Right now, I'm, uh, because I've kind of, I've raced in most championship sets. I mean, now I've even been in F1.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I can't really gonna do F2 again. There'd be no point. I can't do super formula again. I could, but there's less benefit from doing it. So I think it's, it's full focus on being reserve. That means a lot of simulator, which for me, I think what helped getting into formula one and adjusting to it so quickly has been, I've been two years now nearly as reserve. So.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Um, I've done lots of simulator work over the last couple of years and that will just continue now into next year.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And getting to learn and basically absorb being alongside the, I mean, the best team in Formula One right now, I get to.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Sit through the meetings and learn how they operate


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That's what's potentially helped through each scenario is yes, it's extremely frustrating, but I've been able to sit there and go, I can understand at the time of this decision, why this makes sense. And that goes back to defreeze last year.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] At that point, we were having a shocking F2 season, and we turned around at the end, but it was all too late. I had a really good end to the season, I had good testing in F1, but by then the decision's made, so.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That's frustrating, but at the time that the decision was made, I think I could sit there and understand why just because of how my season was. And I think then this year as well.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Although I'm having a much better season, you have the option, you know, mid season in a team that's struggling quite a bit to, um, at least with the car, you have an option of somebody who's never been in Formula One to jump in mid season or somebody who's very experienced in Formula One and has won races and.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So again, it's frustrating to take, but I can sit there and go, okay, I can make sense of this decision and understand it. I would say it's.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It's frustrating to not be driving next year, but, um, I will continue to make the most of still being in Formula One involved at least. Yeah, I think I'm a, I'm a Rebel driver. If I ever get a chance in Formula One, it'll be through Rebel Racing and, and, um,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You know, most likely at some point, I don't know, honestly, but I think it would be with Red Bull that they give him my shots, so.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It's like our Formula One. And for me, when I was a kid, I always used to watch the series and I always wanted to race in it. And all the Kiwi guys that had done it, they were like heroes. So I watched Mitch Evans and Cassidy and, um, those guys race in the series. And the year before I raced, I was just on the cusp of being old enough, but I wasn't old enough. And so they wouldn't let me race.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] There was guys, we had a Red Bull junior, Richard Vashaw was, was there as a Red Bull driver. And I remember like idolizing this guy, um, when he was doing that series. So it'd been something that I'd really wanted to do for a long time. And I finally got to race in it.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And I'd done German F4 in 2018. That was my season in Europe. We found as much money as we could, and we managed to get enough through sponsorship and investment to race in F4, but we had no plan for 2019. I had nothing, basically nothing signed and no money as well really to, I couldn't step into F3.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] We had no idea what I was going to do, but I went and did the Toyota racing series and it was the first race weekend and it was like a damp race and it was drying up and uh. Where was it? Highlands.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So it was Highlands, which is South islands. Um, first rounds and basically the last, I just, I did this big pass on, on the outside. It might've been for the leads on, on the last, like the last corner. It's basically a very close move, lots of wheel touching and the following day, I think we had a.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Basically had a contract from Red Bull or like an offer, you know, from.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It was really quickly. It was the following. Yeah. The following day. I'm pretty sure we had something basically ready.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The way it all happened was a bit strange. The conversation was Helmut directly calling my manager in New Zealand and our response was we need to have a little bit of time, I think. So they kept to themselves and didn't tell me. But through other sources, I ended up finding out and I found out maybe the following week, just before our next round.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And I was sitting with a coach for one of the other drivers, but he, he basically knew, he knew this about this, this contract. I can like remember all of it. So clearly I'm sitting in a cafe in, uh, Queenstown in New Zealand.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And he basically tells me, I mean, Red Bull is the, especially the junior team. That's like, that was my absolute dream. I used to look at, like I said, Richard Vachour, uh, Jack Dewan, I raced in F4 when he was a Red Bull driver and I just thought it was the coolest team to be a part of.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I remember basically just being really surprised. I couldn't even walk properly. I remember having to like really think about walking.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It was super, super strange. Cause you were so giddy. Yeah, I was just, I couldn't believe it. I just knew how important this was. It goes a long way back, but basically the support from New Zealand, the support to get me to race overseas.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Came through a lot of really amazing people, a lot of support through sponsorship and investment. Cause my parents haven't paid for my racing since I was in go-karts.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The whole idea when we set up the structure to go race in Europe was the only way we make this work is if we get picked up by a junior team. We have to get picked up by one of the Formula One teams if we're going to anyway, cause otherwise there's no way we have the money to do it. And I'd done that first year in F4. I'd finished second, but I hadn't, there was nothing.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Nothing came out of it, I had no idea what I was going to race in 2019.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And then I have this pop up and I knew Red Bull was a team that if I delivered, I would get the chance to race in Formula One.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I did, but it wasn't actually, I was just so excited to be honest, to race overseas, to race in Europe. My first year I lived before I was a Rebel driver was I did that one season of German F4. I lived in the Netherlands for a year. So that was my first year away from New Zealand. I lived in the Netherlands.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, and I raced for Van Amersfoort in a, with a Dutch team. So I lived there and uhm, I remember I had a terrible sleep schedule. I was pretty hopeless at looking after myself, but I had quite enjoyed it to be honest, just being away from home and racing in Europe. But I think it definitely, if anything, it gets harder.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The homesickness or... I would say a bit of everything. Homesickness has not been...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Too much of an issue, but as you get higher up, you start dealing with more pressure. There's a lot more responsibility and then you're doing more races. You're traveling more.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And that since that stuff gets, gets a bit harder, the longer, the longer you go, when you're younger, there's not so much expectation, not so much pressure around you. It's you're young. And I think as you get older, you take on a lot more responsibility.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So I have had a driver coach for the last five years. And when I say driver coach, it's not so much.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You know, Liam, you need a break here and turn here and not that kind of driver coach. It's been a mental coach, performance coach, let's say, and his name's Enzo Mucci. And he's basically been somebody that's been with me since I first came to Europe. And he's somebody that works, used to work with gravity. Um, and he worked with gravity drivers and he worked with Richie Stanaway, who's obviously a New Zealand driver. And Richie was my favorite when I was younger.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I had that introduction to Enzo through the same guys who supported Richie, a lot of them are supporting me. But, um, when I was very young, I was like 12 years old and I just stepped out of go-karts to cars and I was going for the scholarship basically to drive a car. Cause even after go-karts, we didn't have any money to race cars in New Zealand. And that's Formula First, isn't it?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It was a scholarship I was going for and it was like a six hour drive to where we were going and I'm like 12 years old and my dad had these CDs and it was just this guy talking basically and he put these CDs on and we listened to them for hours and it was this guy talking about how to, all these different things, how to.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Get sponsorship, how to basically speak to people and convince people to support you, how to mentally deal with the pressure of being a racing driver, all these different things. And it turns out it was Enzo. It was actually Enzo who I was listening to when I was like 12 years old and then I started working with him.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] When I came to Europe, so he's been somebody that's been a massive part of, especially when I joined Red Bull, dealing with the pressure of, of being a Red Bull driver. He was a massive part of dealing with that. And my first year with Red Bull was really tough.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You can start young apparently. So, um, it's been, it's been a huge benefit because by the time I came to Europe and I'm racing guys in F4, it's their first, you know, they sit from go-karts to F4. It's their first season of car racing. I've done like.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I'd really done, I'd done Formula First in New Zealand, then I did Formula Ford in New Zealand at 14. Then I did Formula Four in Australia immediately afterwards at like 14, 15 years old. And then I, so I'd done like so many, I'd done like three seasons of racing.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, if I look at all the seasons of racing that I've done since I was...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Basically started out, but I can list them off. It'd be, it would be a lot. It's Formula First, Formula Ford, Formula Four Australia, Formula Four Germany. Then it's Toyota racing series. Then it's Formula Three Open, FIA Formula Three in the same season. Then it's Toyota racing series again.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, exactly. There's so many skills you learn in different ways in motorsport. It's not just driving a car fast. It's for me, obviously having all that experience in different cars. It's a lot of adapting and in a season, like a random season, like 2021, where I'm doing F2 and DTM, the two most opposite cars you can drive learning to.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Basically drive between the two of them and, and maximise that. How difficult was it to jump from car to car? The, the, the start of the year, I was on the verge of calling Helmut and telling him, this is, this is not going to work. I'm going to fail. I'd done a couple of DTM tests and then I went and did an F2 test in Barcelona and my first lap, I was three seconds off.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] What was that like? What did you learn off him? It was, it was really cool. I, I, he probably got sick of it, but I would have asked him so many questions about Formula One, being with Red Bull and what it was like and, but he was, he was always really, really nice about it and, and.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] A lot was learned just from driving, but I would say more that I, that I got from talking to Alex was all the stuff outside of the car. The, the stuff like dealing with pressure and Formula One and dealing with everything that comes with it. He lost his license that year. Like he physically lost it, didn't do anything stupid. He lost it.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So uhm, he couldn't drive a rental car, so we used to drive together for like a couple of the races and there'd be like two, three hour drives from the airport and inside sit and talk to him.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And basically just talk about being Formula One and, and it was just lots of talking about being with Red Bull, what it was like dealing with the pressure of, of being a Formula One driver, what it was like being teammates with Max, how he drove, uh, stuff like that, I think was what I, what I really learned from Alex.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I think it depends on how we go in Super Formula, if we have a really good finish to the season.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I'll be able to look back on the year and, and, you know, be like, what an amazing year, but there's always going to be, I think no matter how, how it goes and how this year finishes, I'm always going to have a small part of me is going to feel.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I'm a bit disappointed just to not be a full-time driver, obviously that's what my goal is.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So obviously I'll continue to work towards trying to achieve that, but I don't think there's a way that I, I end the year feeling fully fulfilled with how it's gone, to be honest.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] From driving, like I've never had a Russian anything actually, like I had driving that car around, around that track. It was, it was completely crazy. I mean, Bathurst, it was my first time driving the track as well. So I had never been there.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So I did not, you know, on the simulator a lot over the years and VX Supercars is like a big, big thing in New Zealand, a big championship that we follow and I followed it as much as Formula One when I was a kid, so.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It's this iconic track and then I get to drive this iconic car, you know, this car that I've, I watched Red Bull and Sebastian dominate for four years in the, in the era of Formula One. So it was very, very special, but honestly, it was just, yeah, I had, I had so much adrenaline. I remember after the run, I immediately went to the airport to fly home.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So I get out of the car, I do a couple of interviews and I get in the taxi and I'm just talking to my taxi driver, just like chewing his air off, man, like talking to him so much. I've got to share this experience with someone. Like I just couldn't stop it because I was on such a high.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And then I just crashed like massively right, right before I took off and flew back. How hard did you push? To be honest, at different points of the track, I did push. I wasn't allowed to do the whole lap pushing. We weren't allowed to set records. So yeah, no, we couldn't do that. So I mean, I really wanted to go there and have a crack at the record.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So that's why I would push for half a lap and then I would do a couple of donuts and then I'd push again and it was very, very cool.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Obviously it's up there, but like I would love to drive a supercar around that track and on the limit because I haven't, I haven't done a whole lap, you know, on the limit. It's very cool to drive. I actually took, before I drove the Formula One car, I did like two laps just in an E63 medical car.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I had Adrian Burgess from Supercars. I had some Red Bull guys with me.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And I remember driving out and we were all like talking about, you know, how it was going to be. This is where you're going to do a donut here and this is how it's going to work. And this is like a section of the track where there's a camera here and there was a lot of talking. And then on the second app, I thought I'd get into it a bit more.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And the whole car was silent. The whole app, nobody said a word. It was just completely silent and I was, you know, pushing this, this road car.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] sliding across the top of the track and then you pick up that line and it's just like such a cool place to drive. I would love to do it in a, in a car that I can push.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I mean, they're definitely heroes of mine and they're definitely guys that I would say, like the history going that far back is very, very cool for New Zealand and something that I massively appreciate.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] In terms of actual heroes and, and guys that I looked up to growing up, it was definitely current guys. Like Richie was my favorite. Richie, just the way he drove, he was a guy that I basically looked up to the most. He came very close to F1 as well. And there's quite a lot of guys dids. Um, Mitch as well. I think Nick Cassidy is also a hundred percent good enough for Formula One and, and, uh.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Definitely and, and Scott as well. Scott, I read Scott's book when I was uhm, a lot younger and Lewis as well. Lewis was like my ultimate hero from when I was really, really young. I read his book as well when I was, I, I say read books, I don't read it all now.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Red Bull was a team that I, I loved and wanted to, they were my favorite team as a kid because of the way the car looked. Firstly, just the car looked really, really cool and when you're a kid that attracts you, but just the way they were so dominant and the way they worked.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Over those years, but you always root for the underdog in a way. And Lewis with McLaren was somebody that he was somebody that was very inspiring to me. Yeah. I would say he was my favorite when I was a kid.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And he was our last, before Brendan, I think he was the last F1 driver from New Zealand to race. So uhm, we had that massive gap basically until Brendan.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] What did Brendan Hartley do for you? How did he help pave your way? It's a big part of...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But why this is also very important to me is, since I was a kid, we have this just expectation in New Zealand that it's impossible to go to Formula One. So when I was a kid and I would tell, even these are drivers that I, I mean, I won't name them, but drivers I looked up to as a kid, when I would meet them, you know, quite often they say, what do you want to do when you're older? And I would say, I want to be a Formula One driver.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And the response would be, Oh, that's impossible. You know, you can't, you can't do that. And now when I go to like the go cat track in New Zealand and I speak to these eight year old kids, I say to them, what do you, you know, what do you want to race when you're older? And they're like, Oh, I'd like to be a Formula One driver, but it's impossible. So I'm going to try and do this. And it's like, you're eight years old. You can't.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You can't tell an eight year old for a start what they can and can't be. And as an eight year old, you can believe whatever you want.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I certainly did when I was, I was at age. So I think Brendan helped show that it's, it's possible still to be there. And that's also what I'm trying to do at the same time is to show that basically it is, it is possible from New Zealand. It might be very hard, but it's definitely possible.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] When Jochen Mass made his Formula 1 debut in 1973, he raced against legends such as Jackie Stewart, Francois Sauvier and Denny Holm. When he ended his career, he was teammate to Michael Schumacher in the Sauber Mercedes sports car team.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Welcome to Beyond the Grid with me, Tom Clarkson. Jochen and I first met at Goodwood in the UK. He was entertaining some guests and I remember being struck by how articulate he was and how much racing sense he demonstrated.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But for all of those great memories, there were sad times as well. Jochen won the shortened Spanish Grand Prix in 1975, in which four members of the crowd were killed. And it was his car that Gilles Villeneuve touched when he crashed at Zolder in 1982.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Jill's accident had helped contribute to your decision to quit Formula One.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Why didn't you retire from all forms of racing?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Because driving at Le Mans at 250, that's not slow, that's dangerous.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] We'll get back to Jochen right after this. So we all know that a VPN protects your privacy and security online, right?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But just in case some of you out there don't know, you can also use a VPN to access your Netflix account or watch TV. If you happen to find yourself in a different country and can't wait to find out what's happening on your favourite show.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And using a tool like ExpressVPN is simple. All you have to do is sign up, log in, choose your virtual location out of the near 100 countries available, hit the connect button and that's you sorted. You can sit back and watch TV just as if you're at home in your own living room.


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[Assistant] And it's really useful when I'm on the road, as all I need is my laptop at the ready. Not that I actually have much time to complete a box set these days. Anyway, there's plenty of drama in Formula One this season to keep me entertained, and roll on this weekend's Turkish Grand Prix for the next episode.


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[Assistant] There are hundreds of VPNs available out there, but ExpressVPN is a standout because it's ridiculously fast. You can stream everything in HD quality with no buffering or lag, and it's available on your phone, laptop, tablet, and even your TV.


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[Assistant] Just use the link expressvpn.com slash grid and you can get an extra three months of ExpressVPN for free. That's expressvpn.com slash grid.


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[Assistant] Jochen walked away from the wreckage of his burning car in France and also walked away from Formula One, but he continued racing in sports cars, eventually becoming a Le Mans winner and a mentor to Michael Schumacher. Jochen certainly had plenty of experience to draw on when advising his young countrymen.


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[Assistant] Because his own racing career is full of twists, turns, tragedy and larger than life teammates.


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[Assistant] You made your Grand Prix debut at Silverstone 1973 and you got caught up in that...


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[Assistant] First lap crash triggered by Jodie Schecter. Can you just describe what it was like when all the mayhem was going on around you?


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[Assistant] You were always brilliant at the Nordschleife. Jackie Stewart used to call it the green hell. What was your attitude towards that track?


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[Assistant] You joined McLaren full time in 1975. Can you describe what life was like alongside Emerson Fittipaldi?


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[Assistant] Couple of races in 75 I'd love to ask you about. First up, uhm, Brazil.


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[Assistant] And did you realise at that race just how big MO was, particularly at home in Brazil?


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[Assistant] But it was a tragic race. Four spectators were killed. Emerson didn't start that race because he had concerns about safety. Did you think about not starting?


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[Assistant] There's so much to ask you about 76, actually, Jochen. So Emerson leaves McLaren to go and do his own thing with Koposuka and in comes James Hunt. How serious was James?


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[Assistant] About James, I mean, he has this Playboy image. Is it justified?


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[Assistant] Well let's talk about Nürburgring 76, because you started on slicks and had a half a minute lead after two laps. Now what made you start on slicks when everyone else was on wet?


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[Assistant] How difficult was it to take the restart knowing that Nicky was in a critical condition?


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[Assistant] One more race I'd like to ask you from your McLaren days was Canada 77. Now,


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[Assistant] You and James, you and James Hunt teammates, you come together and James is taken out of the race. He then punches a Marshall. And then I think, isn't he sort of waving his fist at you every time you drive past for every lap after that. What, what did he actually say to you after the race?


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[Assistant] How frustrated were you not to continue with McLaren or did it reach its natural end at the end of 77?


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[Assistant] Great insight though into how tiny little things can make a big difference to performance. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.


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[Assistant] We'll be right back with Jochen, who was a good runner in just a moment. Because I'm calling all runners, and those of you looking to start clocking up those miles.


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[Assistant] Now as you probably already know, getting your stride and technique right is an important part of embarking on a new running regime. But one thing that shouldn't be overlooked is your footwear. Step in the new fresh foam 1080v10 from New Balance.


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[Assistant] These breathable and plush running shoes combine soft foam with energetic rebound suitable for casual and hardcore runners alike and they wrap your feet in comfort with every step you take.


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[Assistant] Every run, helping you to feel confident and comfortable as you go the distance. Regardless of whether you're training for an event or simply trying to smash your own personal best, the 1080 V10 from New Balance, the best ride for the road.


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[Assistant] Visit newbalance.com to check them out for yourself. That's newbalance.com. But for now, let's get back to our chat with Jochen.


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[Assistant] And then you have this crash in testing at Silverstone.


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[Assistant] You hurt yourself, you break your leg, and it's while you're in hospital,


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[Assistant] That you are offered a Williams seat for 79 and for those people listening who aren't aware, that is of course when Williams started to dominate Formula One. So my question to you right now, with about 40 years to reflect on it, is why did you turn Frank down for 79?


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[Assistant] You can only do what you think's right at the time, I suppose.


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[Assistant] What do you think you could have achieved at ATS had someone like Robin Hurd stayed with the team?


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[Assistant] And of course Patrese was your teammate at Arrows, um, ironically really, um, by that time.


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[Assistant] He wasn't a friend of James Hunt, was he? But how quick was Patrese? What do you feel he learnt from you? Because by this time you were experienced and he was, he was new. He was almost a rookie.


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[Assistant] And then you can, you sit out 81 and I do want to just ask you briefly about 82 because that March.


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[Assistant] Can I take you back to the start of the year? Because you're an intelligent guy and I'd love to get your take on the driver's strike in South Africa.


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[Assistant] Were you ostracised from the group? Did the other drivers look very poorly on what you've done? Did they wish that you'd been with them and shown some solidarity with them?


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[Assistant] Well Jochen, let's talk about Michael Schumacher because he's been in the news quite a lot recently with Lewis Hamilton beating his win record and his son Mick on the verge of making the step up to Formula One. Given that you helped shape


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[Assistant] Michael, in the early years when you were his teammate at Mercedes, can you tell us what stood out about him?


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[Assistant] So do you think you were the catalyst for him becoming, him sort of moving the bar from a fitness point of view?


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[Assistant] Very strong work ethic. How did he compare to the other Mercedes junior drivers of the time, Heinz Harald Frentzen and Karl Wendlinger?


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[Assistant] I remember reading reports at the time that Frentzen was actually the most naturally talented of those three. Would you agree with that?


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[Assistant] It's fascinating, isn't it? When you say you got him into Williams, did you act as his manager?


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[Assistant] Hang on, I need to stop you there Jochen. So there was a chance that Michael Schumacher could have raced for Williams in the mid nineties. Of course.


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[Assistant] Jochen is just the latest big name from F1's history that we've heard from on Beyond the Grid. On this show, we love digging into stories from the sports past, but new stories are being created every race weekend and you can hear them all on the F1 Paddock Pass podcast.


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[Assistant] F1 paddock pass is the place to hear the 2020 drivers full of emotion and adrenaline just minutes after climbing from their cars.


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[Assistant] Episodes are free to listen to and come out exclusively on Spotify three times every race week, and you don't need a premium account to listen to them. On Thursdays, Will Buxton previews the weekend's action, getting the driver's views on F1's hottest issues.


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[Assistant] After qualifying on Saturday, the drivers relive the fight to be fastest. We talk to the star performers up and down the grid.


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[Assistant] Plus surprise podium finishers, the point scorers, the happy and the heartbroken after every Grand Prix. It's your complete race weekend audio guide. Listen to F1 Paddock Pass for free, no need for a premium account, on Thursdays, Saturdays and Sundays of every race week, only on Spotify.


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[Assistant] And hit the follow button for the fastest way to get every episode.


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[Assistant] Jochen, it's a fascinating relationship that Michael had with you. It seems that it was quite paternal. He looked at you as his racing father, is that fair?


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[Assistant] I mean Hindsight's 2020. Is there anything you do differently in your Formula One career?


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[Assistant] Yeah, that's mad. Um, who was the best teammate you ever had in sports cars? The most talented.


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[Assistant] Also, it was an odd time, wasn't it? Because particularly in the seventies, you were racing sports cars, teammates with some of these people, and then the next weekend you'd be racing against them as rivals in Formula One.


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[Assistant] Oh, what a great story. Well, Jochen, it's been completely wonderful to talk to you. Thank you so much for your time and your insight. It's been fascinating.


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[Assistant] Now before we go, there's just time to take a dive into the Virtual Mailbag to see what you've been saying about the show.


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[Assistant] Really enjoyed listening to this podcast. I chatted with Eric many times at testing and very much miss seeing him at races, but I can see how he's been keeping himself busy. Give it a listen.


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[Assistant] Well thanks for the call to arms, Sarah. And there's no doubting that Eric is one of the nicest guys in Formula One. He has time for everybody.


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[Assistant] And Gorgon de Playa Grinch said this. I hope I pronounced your name right, by the way. Absolutely loved the podcast of Eric. Loved his honest views about giving drivers their space and doing their own thing alongside Formula One. It's a real good listen.


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[Assistant] Well glad you enjoyed it, Gorgon de Playa. Eric is an absolute master at getting the best out of drivers and I loved his thoughts on Romain Grosjean in particular. I'm afraid that's all we've got time for this week. As ever, please rate and review us if you've got time, we really appreciate it.


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[Assistant] Thanks for listening. Beyond the Grid is produced by F1 in association with Audio Boom. Until next time, keep it flat out.


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[Assistant] That's what Steve Nichols engineered for McLaren in 1988. Steve designed a rocket, a red and white wonder car called the MP44.


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[Assistant] In qualifying, the car took 15 pole positions, often several seconds ahead of the next fastest car. It was domination on a level which had never been seen before in Formula One, and hasn't been seen since.


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[Assistant] Welcome everybody to F1 Beyond the Grid with me, Tom Clarkson, and legendary designer, Steve Nicholls.


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[Assistant] The MP4-4 was so much better than the other cars in the field, and Steve can tell us its secrets.


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[Assistant] When one team's car is that strong, only that team's drivers have a chance of winning the world title. Teammates become championship rivals. And in 1988, Ayrton Senna and Alain Prost fought a ferocious campaign against each other. And as Senna's race engineer, Steve was right in the middle of it.


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[Assistant] He's got some eye opening stories about what happened when these ultra competitive teammates sat together in a room during that 88 season.


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[Assistant] Steve's story is intertwined with those two drivers. He followed Prosta Ferrari and he recalls the difficulties of trying to restore the Scuderia to winning ways. At the 1990 Japanese Grand Prix, Steve saw up close how far Senna was prepared to go to beat his great rival.


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[Assistant] He also tells tales of working with Niki Lauda, Mika Hakunen and David Coulthard.


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[Assistant] 1980 to 2000, just generally speaking. Which era was the most enjoyable?


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[Assistant] Was that 1988 season the highlight of your career? 15 out of 16 wins. Or do you still get annoyed thinking, damn, I wish we had, you know, got them all.


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[Assistant] Now, we're gonna come on to Senna and Prost, the two drivers you're talking about in a minute. But can we start by talking about the car, the MP4-4? Were you surprised by its level of dominance?


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[Assistant] And how much better was the Honda Turbo than the Tag Porsche Turbo?


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[Assistant] Let's bring the drivers in now then. We're talking Alain Prost and Ayrton Senna. Who was better at the economy in the races? Who was the more economical drove?


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[Assistant] Steve, which of those two drivers held the advantage coming into 1988? Because it was seen from the outsiders, Prost's team, Ayrton Senna was new to McLaren, but he had experience of the Honda engine from his time at Lotus. So who held the advantage?


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[Assistant] Because of course, actually Steve, that's a good point. When we talk about the influence of Honda on the success of this car, the engine didn't look so sharp. In the Lotus of 1988, Senna out-qualified Piquet by more than, what was it, three seconds at the San Marino Grand Prix? Same engine.


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[Assistant] Us Mclaren versus, so Lotus may be right in thinking.


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[Assistant] If there's one thing I know we all struggle with from time to time, it's stress.


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[Assistant] It can sneak up on you and before you know it, you're at complete burnout. But it can be hard to recognise the signs that you're struggling when you're in the thick of it. We all shake off some of those physical symptoms like headaches, a lack of sleep, teeth grinding or a change in diet as temporary and try and power through. But it soon catches up with you.


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[Assistant] One way I try to look after myself is through exercise because that really helps me clear my head. But sometimes the best thing you can do if the stresses of life are weighing heavy on you is to talk through your problems. And that's where therapy can be a great help.


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[Assistant] BetterHelp is customized online therapy that offers video, phone and even live chat sessions with your therapist so you don't have to see anyone on camera if you don't want to.


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[Assistant] It's much more affordable than in-person therapy. Give it a try and see if online therapy can help lower your stress. Beyond the Grid listeners get 10% off their first month at betterhelp.com slash grid. That's better help. B E T T E R H E L P dot com slash grid.


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[Assistant] Steve, what was it like to ride that crest of a wave in 1988, knowing, going into every race that you should win it if everything, if your cards fall correctly?


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[Assistant] And you know Alan's nickname, The Professor, was he deserving of that nickname?


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[Assistant] Now, from the outside, the story that we were being fed, certainly, was that they became obsessed with each other. Is that fair comment?


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[Assistant] You say Senna was a friend. What was he like away from the racetrack? Would you hang out?


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[Assistant] But if he came to the factory, obviously not the MTC, it was pre-MTC, but would you...


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[Assistant] And did you believe that it was always gonna blow up that relationship?


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[Assistant] I'm looking at you in the eye, and I'm saying, so, you are Brace Engineering Ayrton Senna.


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[Assistant] If Alan Prost won a race that year, did you get pleasure from that? Or was it a little bit, I'm talking about you saying, oh, no drivers bigger than the team.


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[Assistant] Now, it flared up, uhm, people talk about Imola, 1989, the deal about not overtaking, etc., but probably there was an inevitability that it was going to blow up. Whether it was going to happen there, it would have happened somewhere else.


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[Assistant] Was there more that the team and Ron Dennis in particular could have done to keep a lid on it?


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[Assistant] Now, I'm very much hoping to get Ron Dennis on this podcast, but in case he doesn't come on any time soon.


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[Assistant] Fascinating, this whole side of the sport, and that all still applies today, doesn't it? I'm reminded of 2016, Nico Rosberg and Lewis Hamilton.


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[Assistant] The battle, the intra-team battle that was going on at Mercedes. Now you mentioned four world champions there. Lauda, Senna, Prost, Hakkinen.


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[Assistant] Those four, that little quartet, are they on a pedestal in your mind compared to all of the other drivers you work with?


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[Assistant] Now, were Senna and Prost a cut above everybody else? I mean, I'm including Hekinen and Lauda there.


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[Assistant] Mika was of course performing at least a decade later, really, wasn't he? So we're now starting to talk about data that the engineers could work with. So perhaps Mika might've struggled a little bit more in the earlier era, but he was made for the era he was in.


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[Assistant] You say that Mika might have had a few shortcomings in terms of his feedback perhaps, but he was willing to give anything a go, wasn't he?


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[Assistant] Let's take off our engineering hats for a moment and swap it for our Team Principal shirt and headset. Because F1 Manager 2022 is a new fully licensed management game putting you in the role of Team Principal at your favourite F1 team


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[Assistant] Ready to take on all the challenges of the 2022 season and beyond, giving you the most authentic Formula One management experience fully licensed and brought to you in broadcast quality presentation. Drive every decision as team principal.


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[Assistant] Manage your staff and hone your race strategy for each weekend. Live the drama of Formula One on and off the track. Be prepared to react to dynamic events such as changing weather, evolving track conditions or race incidents. And vote on upcoming rule changes to swing things in your favour and come out on top.


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[Assistant] Launching on PC, PlayStation and Xbox, Summer 2022. Visit f1manager.com to wishlist the game on your platform of choice and follow at f1manager on Twitter to stay up to speed.


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[Assistant] Steve, Alan Prost said to you at the end of 1989, he says, come on, let's go, let's go to Italy together. Uh, how did that come about?


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[Assistant] But let's talk a little bit more about Ferrari. The different ethos to McLaren. How different did they do things?


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[Assistant] They've got the money. They've got all the departments in place. There were clearly some clever people there.


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[Assistant] But why, why, I'm trying to get to the bottom of, we're talking 1990 Ferrari, you've got Alain Prost at the time, a three time world champion driving for you.


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[Assistant] What about a V12? Talk me through the merits, other than the sound of course.


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[Assistant] It was all about tomorrow. And what the headline in Gazetta de la Sport was going to be. Ultimately, it was too much for Alan. Didn't he describe the 91 car as a tractor at some point?


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[Assistant] There are few things in life more taxing than scouring online for credit card offers that fit your needs. There are so many companies out there that it can be hard to pin down which credit card might be right for you.


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[Assistant] But that's where Credit Karma can step in and do the hard work for you. So you can zero in on your choice at the click of a few buttons and apply with confidence.


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[Assistant] They also show you your chances of approval before you apply so you don't waste any time searching for unsuitable credit. And don't worry, comparing cards on Credit Karma is 100% free and won't affect your credit scores, which is great news for your financial profile in the long run. Credit Karma. Create your own karma.


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[Assistant] Ready to find the card for you? Head to Credit Karma and check out your personalised mix of offers today. Go to Credit Karma dot com or the Credit Karma app to find the card for you. That's Credit Karma dot com.


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[Assistant] I've got two questions, two more questions about Ferrari. First of all, that collision at Suzuka 1990, what did Prost say when he got back to the pit lane?


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[Assistant] I, well, he thought I've got to get ahead of him because I've got to finish ahead of him. But do you think he was wary of something like that happening?


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[Assistant] That was the most stressful season of Alan Prost's Working Life With You.


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[Assistant] With the truck comment, uh, before the end of the season, of course he was removed, wasn't he? Yeah. Prior to the last race of 1991. Now look, 1992.


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[Assistant] I wanna talk to you about twin floors. The F92A. Seems like, was that a design that on paper was genius but just never quite... Why did it not work in reality, I guess?


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[Assistant] If you'd put the twin floor concept on a more sophisticated active ride system, I suppose Williams were the benchmark at the time.


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[Assistant] Steve, it is so fascinating talking to you. We could literally do it all day. But of course, you leave Ferrari, I guess when you have a difficult car like the F92A and all of the headlines that come with it,


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[Assistant] I don't mean to belittle it, but, but, you know, when you've done the two biggest teams, were you tempted to just walk away from Formula One rather than go, what was it? It was Sauber, it was Jordan.


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[Assistant] Just out of interest at the time, so Jordan is spending a budget of 30, what would Ferrari have had at the time?


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[Assistant] So Jordan was a happy time. Um, Ferrari was a frustrating time. I don't mean to be putting words into your mouth, but where, of all those teams, where were you happiest?


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[Assistant] You said at the very start of this chat that you thrived on pressure. What does 20 years at the coalface do to you?


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[Assistant] How exhausting was Formula One? Did you get to 2001 where you were with Jaguar? Did you get to that point in your career and say, I'm just...


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[Assistant] And do you miss, even now, 20 years since you walked away from Formula One? Do you miss the adrenaline rush? How hard is it to get it out of your system?


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[Assistant] From now, or even from your era, it could be from Chapman's era.


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[Assistant] I could listen to Steve for hours, especially when he's discussing that memorable 1988 season. The MP4-4, the drivers, even the pre-season testing at Imola. Everything about that year leaves me on tenterhooks. It was wonderful to have you on the show, Steve. Many thanks for your time.


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[Assistant] And in our back catalogue, you can hear from others caught up in the Senna-Prost rivalry, including Alain Prost himself and Julian Jacobi, the man who managed both drivers at the same time.


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[Assistant] And please remember to send in any thoughts or stories that you have on Steve. Did you go to a race in that special 1988 season? Maybe Monaco? Were you a Senna or a Prost fan? Let me know.


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[Assistant] Which brings me onto what you sent in after last week's episode with Kevin Magnussen.


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[Assistant] He's a hugely popular driver is Kmag and let's start with this from Rahul Arora. Just amazing. Kevin's comeback reminds us that taking a sabbatical can fill us with fresh motivation and can also provide us with a new perspective.


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[Assistant] Glad to see him start a new chapter, both in his personal and his professional life, all the very best. Well, perspective is so important, isn't it Rahul? And Kevin has that now. I'm convinced he's a better racing driver for it too. Uh, thank you for getting in touch.


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[Assistant] And what about this from Vegetable Tears? Fantastic interview with K-Mack.


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[Assistant] He must be the first driver I've heard talk about being part of the team and actually believe it. A year off seems to have done K-Mag a world of good, although I'm sure he's been a dude.


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[Assistant] Well thanks for that Vegetable Tears. Yes, Kevin has always been a dude. And there is no I in team, is there?


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[Assistant] And let's end with this from madsarp who says, Kevin is so honest and a passionate racer at heart.


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[Assistant] He's known not to give an inch on track, and yet when he talks about Louise, his daughter Laura, and his dad Jan at Le Mans...


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[Assistant] He sounds so happy and settled. It's great to have him back where he belongs in Formula One. What a Viking comeback. Yes, Mads, I couldn't agree more. And I particularly enjoyed hearing Kevin's memories of racing with Jan at Le Mans last year and the fact that Jan is still so quick.


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[Assistant] Well thank you to everyone who wrote in. I read all of your messages, I'm just sorry that I don't have time to read all of them out here.


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[Assistant] And before I go, please make sure you check out the latest episode of the F1 Nation podcast. Davide Valsecchi joins me, Damon Hill and Natalie Pinkham to look ahead to the Emilia Romagna Grand Prix at Imola this weekend.


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[Assistant] And Davideh thinks for some drivers it could be a season defining race. Search your podcast app for F1 Nation to hear what he has to say. And while you're there...


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[Assistant] F1B on the Grid as well and why not give us a rating or a review and tell your friends and followers about the show using the hashtag F1B on the Grid.


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[Assistant] Thanks for listening. F1 Beyond the Grid is produced by F1 and Audio Boom Studios. Until next time, keep it flat out.


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[Assistant] Hello everyone and welcome to Beyond the Grid with me, Tom Clarks.


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[Assistant] My guest this week is a driver who had his day of days at the French Grand Prix back in 1990. He finished second in the underdog Leighton House march, having led local hero Alain Prost for much of the race. So as the F1 circus decamps to the very same Paul Ricard circuit this week,


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[Assistant] It seems like the perfect time to relive it with my guest, Ivan Capelli.


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[Assistant] If Anne was a brilliantly fast racing driver, he dominated the junior categories of the sport, becoming a champion in Formula 3 and Formula 3000. And he achieved amazing feats in Formula 1 as well.


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[Assistant] Predominantly, he drove for small, low-budget teams, taking three podiums. And what should have been the highlight of his Formula One career, when he raced for Ferrari, turned out to be his biggest nightmare.


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[Assistant] The F92A was very uncompetitive and Ivan didn't see out the 1992 season with the team.


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[Assistant] He's no longer involved in F1, but Ivan's still incredibly passionate about it, and he remains a very astute observer of the sport. In this chat, he's very open about the highs and lows of his career, and gives incredible insights into what it was like to work with the likes of Ken Tyrrell, Adrian Newey, and Jean Alesi.


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[Assistant] If Anne is one of the most engaging characters you could be lucky enough to meet. I hope you enjoy our conversation.


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[Assistant] Ivan, it is wonderful to have you on the show. Thank you for your time. How are ya? What's going on? Well, uh,


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[Assistant] Well, I hope you're going to enjoy talking about Formula One with us. This weekend is the French Grand Prix. So I thought, where's a good place to start with, Ivan? Why don't we talk about the 1990 French Grand Prix at Paul Ricard? You finished second, having led Alain Prost for much of the race.


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[Assistant] Let's talk about the performance of the car first. We'll come on to the other opportunities in a bit. But were you surprised by the pace of the car that weekend? Because people may not know that you hadn't qualified for the previous race.


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[Assistant] Why were you so convinced that not stopping was the way forward?


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[Assistant] Fantastic. Now, you say it was your sliding doors moment. Even finishing second.


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[Assistant] Did any opportunities present themselves immediately after that?


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[Assistant] The reason Flavio Briatore got in touch with you after Alessandro Nanini injured himself in that helicopter accident was because of that performance. Is that fair?


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[Assistant] While we're talking about Flavio, can you tell us the story? What happened with that Benetton seat at the end of 1990? So Nanini injures himself and how soon after that is Briatore on the telephone to you?


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[Assistant] You mentioned Akira Akagi who was the money man behind March and did so much for your career. We'll come onto him in a minute, but do you regret?


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[Assistant] Not taking that Benetton seat because of course Moreno took it. He finished on the podium in Japan. He then got the Benetton ride for the whole of 91 or until Schumacher came along, but it could have been different for you, couldn't it?


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[Assistant] You raced for March Leighton House for five years. Which was the best car you drove?


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[Assistant] Jackie Stewart drove that car I think the following season and I've seen what he said about it and he said the car was undrivable because the cockpit was too small and he talked about leg cramps and things like that. How did you do a Grand Prix distance being so uncomfortable?


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[Assistant] But did it affect your ability to drive it properly, particularly towards the end of a Grand Prix? Because of fatigue, as I said, cramp.


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[Assistant] Adrian was clearly uncompromising. This is it guys, get on with it in terms of the cockpit.


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[Assistant] And I've heard some drivers say the joy of working with Adrian is that in him, you're with a man who wants to win as much as you do. Ferociously competitive.


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[Assistant] And did you enjoy being the David, if you like, against the Goliath of Ayrton Senna and Alan Pross? Did you enjoy being the underdog?


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[Assistant] What about offers? I'm going to keep talking about offers during our chat because that summer of 88, when you've had two podiums in three races, did the big teams not come knocking? I find it very hard to believe that they didn't.


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[Assistant] Okay, interesting. Disappointing too, because-


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[Assistant] Do you feel that you were at the height of your powers in that 88 season? When were you at your best?


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[Assistant] When you were driving with the most confidence and getting the job done. You spent most of your career driving that distinctive, what do we call it? Miami blue.


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[Assistant] What kind of stuff did you do in the national service? Well come back to your racing career in a minute, but what was it like? How hard was it?


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[Assistant] But what were you doing? Were you having to go and make a camp in the Dolomites or go marching and...


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[Assistant] And what, people sending you Outer Sprint and Gazeta de la Sport just to keep in touch with what's going on?


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[Assistant] What a brilliant story, I love that. So that's National Service, sorry, we digress, but, so, uhm, Akagi-san.


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[Assistant] Yes. You've met him whilst doing Formula 3000. Tell me more about that story.


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[Assistant] What an amazing story. How did you find Japan back then? Did you get very homesick?


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[Assistant] Was Akagi-san the most instrumental figure in your whole career? Where would you have been in Formula One without him?


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[Assistant] How nervous were you about the whole thing or did you just take it in your stride?


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[Assistant] What an incredible story. An incredible man, Ken Tyrrell. He was known as Uncle Ken, the evuncular Ken Tyrrell.


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[Assistant] Keep going, keep going with Ken, yeaah. Tell me more.


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[Assistant] Wow, what a powerful character. And you remember it all vividly, I can see that. Also, the Brands Hatch Grand Prix circuit, one of the best in the world, isn't it?


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[Assistant] And this was the first Adelaide Grand Prix, so was it a very bumpy track back then as well? Big curbs. Very bumpy, very...


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[Assistant] Which of course sort of takes us back to what we were talking about and the influence that Akira Akagi had on you. He was the guy that made it happen with the money with Leighton House.


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[Assistant] That Akagi-san was gonna deliver the money. Did you have any doubts in the back of your mind?


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[Assistant] Incredible. 93 Grand Prixs later, et cetera, et cetera. We haven't even discussed Ferrari yet!


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[Assistant] Cause it was going so well, wasn't it? Uh, until the end of, until the end of 91 and then you get the call. Can you just tell us how did the Ferrari drive come about?


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[Assistant] You say obviously you said yes. Did you have any reservations at all?


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[Assistant] And I'm guessing the contract was financially good as well.


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[Assistant] How did that manifest itself on a day to day basis? The politics.


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[Assistant] When you tested the 91 car, because I was going to say, where was the 92 car worse than the 91 car?


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[Assistant] Everything was sided with Jean. And did you ever confront Jean about what he'd said about the 92 car and being so positive about it when it sounds like there wasn't much to be positive about?


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[Assistant] So you never said goodbye to Montezemolo. He never said goodbye to you.


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[Assistant] Life at Ferrari is harder for an Italian driver.


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[Assistant] You mention Ferrari now. They're having a good season. Two consecutive polls for a Sherlock clerk in Monaco and then in Baku. Do you think Ferrari's upward trajectory is here to stay? Do you think they can


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[Assistant] The big chance comes with the rule changes next year, doesn't it?


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[Assistant] Exactly, you love the underdog, don't you? Uhm, do you think Ferrari has the foundation to build a good car for 2022?


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[Assistant] Well, Ivan, it's been a wonderful chat. Thank you so much for your time. Can you just sum up your racing career for me? How proud are you? And do you have any regrets?


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[Assistant] Wasn't he great? I could have listened to Ivan for hours because he's not only a great storyteller, he remembers his F1 career like it was yesterday. The detail in some of his stories is incredible.


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[Assistant] There were too many wonderful stories to pick a favourite one. But how he got into Formula One on a permanent basis, with the support of Akira Akagi, the boss of Leighton House, is a heartwarming one. And as Ivan says himself, it wasn't only Akagi-san to whom he owed his Formula One career. Ken Tyrrell was another godfatherly figure,


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[Assistant] And those two races that he drove for Mr. Tyrrell at the end of 1985 had so much colour to them.


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[Assistant] And although it's sad to hear Ivan talk about his season with Ferrari, how his time there unraveled provides great insight into how the Scuderia functioned back then. It wasn't a good time to be racing for the team.


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[Assistant] Ivan, many thanks for your time. It was great to catch up and I hope to see you at the Italian Grand Prix later this year.


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[Assistant] Before we move on, please remember to send in any stories or chance meetings or thoughts that you have on a van. Did you see him race? Well, let me know. And remember, I'll read out the best ones next week. Send them to me at Tom Clarkson F1 or use the hashtag F1 Beyond the Grid.


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[Assistant] Which brings me on to what you sent in about Jeff Gordon after last week's show.


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[Assistant] Dan Mahen got in touch with this. I met Jeff Gordon at the premiere of Star Wars Rise of Skywalker. He was very nice and went out of his way to spend time with several make-a-wish families that were there. A class act. Well what a great story, thanks Dan. And nothing that you said there comes as a surprise.


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[Assistant] And how about this from Todd, if you're a Jack Gordon fan, he says, or a racing fan in general,


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[Assistant] And let's hear from Zach Robinson. This is easily my favourite episode of Beyond the Grid yet, he says. My uncle graduated from high school with Jeff and our town has a Jeff Gordon Boulevard.


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[Assistant] Safe to say, we've all been fans for life. I'm too young to remember the Williams Test, but I love every second of the story. Great episode, as always. Thanks, Zach, for the note. Jeff certainly gave us plenty of detail about the Williams Test. I hope you feel like you are watching it now.


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[Assistant] We'll leave it there, folks. Although we got literally hundreds of messages about that Jeff Gordon show. Thanks for your feedback. And if I haven't read out your message, please know that I've read it. I read each and every one of your messages.


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[Assistant] Well that's it for this week. I hope you enjoyed hearing from Ivan, and remember to send in your thoughts and stories on him. As ever, I'll be back next week with another great guest from the world of Formula One, so see you then.


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[Assistant] Beyond the Grid is produced by F1 in association with Audio Boom. Until next time, keep it flat out.


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[Assistant] And therefore it's probably a lot more difficult now to integrate with the whole of Ferrari and the whole of McLaren and the whole of Mercedes and whichever team you look at than it was.


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[Assistant] Back in 1978 when the whole team was 10 people around the car and that was it. But I think they've all gone hand in hand, which I suppose is just the organic growth of the sport. You know, that, that's why it's gone hand in hand because one has led the other. You know, the professionalism on our side as a team side has allowed drivers to bring a new level of professionalism as a driver.


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[Assistant] Yeah, I mean the question I get asked probably most often is, yeah, but how would Senna fare nowadays? The fact is Senna would fare just as well nowadays as he did back then. Not if he was as fit as he was then, because he simply wouldn't be able to cope at this level, but he would make himself as fit as he needs to be now.


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[Assistant] Or better in Senna's case, you know, he would have found something special and, and he would be the guy that we were saying, you know, not only is he a three, four time world champion, he's also the fittest guy out there. You know that Senna had the mindset.


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[Assistant] I ought to give it some thought, but my initial reaction is, god yes, he is absolutely ready, yea, absolutely ready.


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[Assistant] Or whether, when you're as good as they are, you are going to be self-confident. But certainly, none of those names you've mentioned.


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[Assistant] I wouldn't be surprised if Mazepin actually starts off out qualifying him a few times because, you know, Mick takes a while to get up to speed, but actually not the case. And Mick's continued to make good progress in that area. So it was an area that we identified.


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[Assistant] For want of a better word lived in the shadow of that all his life really and I think from what I know of him and just those discussions I've had on the topics I think he likes the opportunity


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[Assistant] Obviously we know now how quick Rosberg is, but of course at the time Rosberg had arrived from Williams.


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[Assistant] Nico had obviously been honing his skills as they say in Williams and Nico was quicker than Michael to start with and people were like, he just shouldn't have come back should he because he can't even beat Rossberg now.


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[Assistant] I mean, yeah, clearly Lewis had got the better of Nico over the years, but I think if you ask Lewis, he would firmly admit that Nico was one of his strongest opponents, especially in qualifying, which is, you know, where the obvious comparisons were made because


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[Assistant] Certainly at Mercedes, we were never, ever reflecting the thoughts of some of the media. You know, none of us in any coffee room discussion ever said, you know, Michael shouldn't have come back really, should he? You could see why he did it. You could see how much it was doing for the team. I mean, there's no doubt.


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[Assistant] Not one person at that stage. Maybe later on he brought Aldo Costa in. And of course he brought Michael. And you'd think, well, if there's going to be two people you're going to bring in Aldo Costa and Michael were pretty big hitters and made a huge difference. But the point was the core of that team didn't change. And of course the Braun year was


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[Assistant] Yeah, you've probably got the wrong tyres on it or something. So yeah, we dismissed it. But no, they kept coming back and saying, no, we've checked it. We can't understand why everybody's going so slowly. So then we started to sort of really look at it. And sure enough, before the car ever rolled, we were like, blimey, we need to get to this next test because I'm sure


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[Assistant] But it wasn't, it's not just about getting fit. It's a whole mental preparation. It's a whole getting your head into gear. Okay, I need to be thinking about this. How do I approach the season, you know?


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[Assistant] What are my short-term objectives? What are my long-term objectives? And this is the stuff that other sports have been doing for a few years now. You know, you look at the American sports have been doing it for 20 years and athletics has been doing it for 20 years and F1 is behind in these things and is catching up.


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[Assistant] So in 2009, the older drivers weren't used to this being a requisite that you were going to get found out if you weren't absolutely on it the beginning of the season. Now, I don't know how Rubens would do things differently now if you went back to him now and said in


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[Assistant] Rubens is a, is a again a professional enough driver that he would now


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[Assistant] A much better prepared sportsman. And the frustration, I think, was that actually Rubens, I think, was probably just as talented, you know, probably better on one lap than Jensen on some occasions. So, you know, it wasn't that he was not as quick as Jensen. He was every bit as good as Jensen.


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[Assistant] Certainly for that year was that he embraced the mental and the physical and the structure and the training, which we now see as de rigueur for all of the drivers nowadays. But again, maybe Jensen was one of those that was engaged in it and Rubens who'd had a previous 10 years where that wasn't a factor. Did your side of the garage


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[Assistant] His first test was in Silverstone and he was in a bit of a shootout with David Coulthard. Uhm, now I don't know exactly what the politics were at the time and whether the deal was already done, but I was engineering DC at the time. So DC sort of was looking at that as,


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[Assistant] And Jack still had one run to do. So I think David Brown was probably, yeah, it was David Brown at the time. I think David Brown was looking after Jack at the time in the other car and DC's car was sort of parked in the garage. It was back in the days when you did two car testing and we sat on the, on the toolbox at the back of the, the Lister at the back of the garage. We sat on the, on there and, um, DC was like.


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[Assistant] But it was all about Frank and Patrick, and actually to the extent that the drivers, you know, were really quite sort of


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[Assistant] I was impressed at times, you know, and obviously I wasn't there when Prost was there and maybe it was very different with a driver of his caliber, but certainly I was there with Damon and he struggled to get his voice heard at times. So actually Jacques arriving as this young kid


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[Assistant] With no real track record apart from having won Indy, of course, which is quite a track record, but in Europe it counts for nothing. You know, Patrick had very little respect for the fact that he'd won Indy 500 and the Indy Car Championship. And so the fact that Jack was willing straight away to defend his corner


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[Assistant] So most drivers nowadays have about 50mm, 70mm of throttle travel. So that's at the ball of your foot. You're travelling 50mm, 70mm to have the modulation. The shortest I've known anybody else is about 45. Jacques had 22. Now 22mm is nothing.


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[Assistant] But, anything longer than that, and he was like, no, this throttle pedal's far too long, I can't drive that. Patrick would be like,


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[Assistant] And of course Jack said if I can grip it properly, then actually I have more control, which is quite logical, which is why all drivers now have


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[Assistant] If the kid says he'll go quicker with mouldy grips, I'm going to give him mouldy grips, so I did them by hand. And of course if Patrick, everybody like, Patrick come in quick, put it under the bench, alright Patrick, yeah. But if he caught me doing another, Doc, how many times have I told you, leave those bloody steering wheels alone, wasting our bloody time.


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[Assistant] And you never speak back to the referee. You never touch the referee. You never argue with the referee. And so I had this sort of, I was brought up with this sportsmanship. And as soon as I worked with Jack, he had that.


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[Assistant] What he did in the car, where you recognise that no, he


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[Assistant] You know, maybe there was, there was powers that were not wanting to, certainly not within the team. I'm not suggesting Patrick and Frank, but just, you know, that, that,


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[Assistant] I don't think they were, because I think they were just at a growing stage, if you see what I mean. Certainly I don't think McLaren were doing that yet, because having talked to DC, that all sort of came in 2000, 1999-2000, that sort of arrived for them.


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[Assistant] That proves what a risk taker Jacques was, because if that had taken both of them out. Absolutely. Championship over. Yea. In favour of Michael Schmeichel. Yea. And of course people say, ah yea, but Michael got disqualified. He wouldn't have been disqualified had he won the championship, I don't think.


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[Assistant] Frenson hadn't pitted yet, so actually, he was just behind them. So he wasn't actually in the race with them, but he was on track, physically, just behind them. So as soon as the incident happened, he was the car behind Jack and he drove alongside Jack and looked at the damage and radioed to us and said, there's some damage on the left hand side, but it doesn't look too bad.


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[Assistant] As Martin Brundle pointed out, it didn't work Michael, my friend or whatever he said. And bounced off, but it did some fairly cosmetic damage to the side pod.


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[Assistant] Even though we were at Williams, I think it was as special as it should be, if you see what I mean. You know, people's talked about then, you know, Williams won, you know, so many championships at that time, but they still enjoyed winning championships. You know, there was nothing...


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[Assistant] And he could have won more races, he could have, you know, potentially won more championships, but...


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[Assistant] And that's what I said and that's what I'm going to do. So, you know, it was like, well, Craig's got all this deal going on and, but McLaren have come calling or you probably ought to seriously think about going to McLaren. And he said, no, no, no, I'm not, I'm not even interested. I said to Craig, if straight starts a team, I'll drive for it. And so he did. And people would say, oh, you know, he wasted the rest of his career.


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[Assistant] Fundamentally I don't think he would say he regretted starting that team. Why did you go?


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[Assistant] Very, very happy at Williams, very happy at Williams, and I certainly didn't leave because I didn't enjoy Williams or our...


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[Assistant] Which it was, demonstrably. But it was an opportunity to start a brand new team and that, you know, that was a hell of a challenge. So I just went for that challenge really.


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[Assistant] You know, you sort of thought, you know, now we're going to have to build it up again because, you know, yeah, we won the championship. But whereas 2014 when I made the decision to leave then and come to Ferrari was because now this is the dominant team and people would say to me,


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[Assistant] But if you leave now, what happens if they win next year? And I said they will, they will win next year. Don't worry about it. And when I went to Ferrari, I said to James Ellison, bear in mind, you know, we're building for the next two or three years and this team are going to be tough to beat in the next couple of years because you know, they get very strong now.


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[Assistant] I certainly didn't foresee this sort of dominance, because I don't think you can foresee this sort of dominance, but certainly you knew they were as strong as McLaren had been in 99, if you see what I mean, or Williams had been in 96 or 93, where you knew they were just going to be very hard to beat for the next few years.


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[Assistant] And that was it for me. They are now a top team and therefore I've sort of done everything I can do here and to stay there would just be a bit more of the same. They're now just going to repeat and that's what they've done. But for me, that journey had come full circle and now was the time to just walk away from that and say, yeah, you know, we sort of


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[Assistant] Passion is the right word for what you see when you see what goes on at Ferrari, when they win and when they don't win. There's a whole load of energy there that isn't in the British team.


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[Assistant] That he can just separate himself from his emotion. And the same with Laurent, for example, Laurent Mikis, who is very different in that way and has that ability to not get too emotional. That you need that control. But for sure, what you notice every day, every conversation almost you have and every meeting you have at Ferrari is


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[Assistant] That people are just so invested, these people are just so invested in this, in every part of their body. Toto's probably listening and going, eh, bollocks, I'm just as invested. Yes, you are Toto, you are just as invested, but you've got an emotional side that you actually, that isn't, trust me, isn't as invested as these guys are. That is a hell of a motive force. A lot of the


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[Assistant] You know, this is, this is how you should deal with the issues we've had and this is the way you should develop. Where that puts us in the pecking order really depends on technically what other people come up with and what we come up with. And I have no idea what other people are gonna come up with.


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[Assistant] With the way the sport is, and again with the level that all the teams are at, these teams are separated by a tenth. You know, you look at qualifying last week, it was just crazy.


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[Assistant] The guys back in P20 are 5 seconds off the pace. The people in P20 are 1.4 seconds off the pace.


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[Assistant] And we'll be in that mix for sure, but it's gonna be desperately close unless we see something technologically that somebody's like, oh yeaah.


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[Assistant] Never thought of that. Maybe we should have done that. You know, the old double diffuser. Who knows, but you can't know whether that's going to happen. But you know, if you look at where all the teams are, you have to just have huge respect for all of them at the moment. They are very, very capable and that's a


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[Assistant] You sort of imagine that people do things not in a correct way or they're slightly behind or some of the technology is slightly behind.


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[Assistant] What I was really surprised about is the talent and just the level that people are operating at. Who knows what makes a team win races and championships, but I think, you know, if one of those ingredients is a lot of passionate, talented people who are working hard, well, this team absolutely has it.


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[Assistant] So I suppose it does give us an opportunity to take stock of the first three races it's been...


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[Assistant] Uh, to come back, you know, regroup, make sure all the parts on the car are, are up to spec. We've got enough parts ready for the next race into Baku. But yeah, I think now particularly as we've had a good start to the season for us, we're all very keen to sort of get back to racing again in Baku.


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[Assistant] No, not really. I suppose it's most similar to when we have the summer shutdowns. I remember before they were introduced that there was a certain amount of consternation about what was going to happen when we introduced the summer shutdown.


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[Assistant] The difference being here, obviously that we, we have a break between races, but we're still working. Whereas in the summer shutdown, you have that sort of unique opportunity to turn your phone off and actually relax. Whereas here we're still going hell for leather, trying to get developments ready for the car.


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[Assistant] Now we're, we're very much focused on this car. I mean, unless something radically changes in the next couple of months, there aren't going to be any big rule changes for next year, so.


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[Assistant] This car is, is going to be our main focus for an amount of time. And then we'll obviously look at, you know, AMR 24 for later in the year. We are keen to make sure that, you know, even though we've made a good step this year, that we don't sort of then, you know, either, I wouldn't say slack off with it. Definitely not going to slack off.


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[Assistant] But we're very keen to make sure that we keep up the development, because I think that's the other part of the sort of puzzle, if you like, in terms of making a good car. It's also being able to keep up that development race in the year. So this is a good opportunity for us to sort of stick with AMR23 and see what we can make with it.


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[Assistant] Yeah, we have started. We've started moving some infrastructure over there. We're due to be moving in sort of sometime the beginning of May.


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[Assistant] And that will be, you know, the main DO. A lot of the offices will then be filled at that kind of time. The progress after that will be in moving some of the manufacturing parts of the company over to the new factory. It's an incredible facility as you can see when you, when you drive in every morning.


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[Assistant] Yes, I think we probably have exceeded our expectations in the respect that I think we were hoping for a big step. We were definitely hoping that we could challenge the likes of, you know, Mercedes and Ferrari to be where we are now, I think is probably more than we could have ever dreamed.


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[Assistant] But as I say, the most important thing for us is to make that kind of sustainable gain in performance. You know, we don't want this to be a flash in the pan or you to have this sort of being the one year where we actually made a step forward and then, you know, we just sort of slink back off to the midfield again. And we want this to be the start of something which is a journey for us. So.


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[Assistant] Absolutely delighted that we are in the position we are after three races, but we absolutely can't underestimate how strong our competitors are in this area of the, the F1 field.


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[Assistant] And it's going to take a gargantuan effort on our part to, to keep in this position and to make this sustainable over a number of years. And really that's the, that's what this project is all about. It's all about trying to make that sustainable improvement and then gradually build our way up to, you know, challenging for race wins and titles.


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[Assistant] I'm not sure they've underperformed in that they've certainly made, I think, a tangible step since last year. It may be not the step they were hoping for, but I think it is a reasonable season development for them. I think the problem is that because Red Bull were clearly the team to beat and were


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[Assistant] Very famously our strategy engineer looked at the percentage of the points we'd made last year in the first two races. So he sort of very diligently reported that as we've made, you know, 47% of the points we made last year or whatever it was.


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[Assistant] But now we've exceeded that. Obviously he doesn't, he doesn't do that anymore, but, uh, we are clearly aware of our position relative to the others. I think the points count itself is, it's gratifying to now have more than we did last year. This for us is going to be a target going forward. So whatever we have managed to achieve this year is something that we then have to strive to beat next year.


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[Assistant] I mean, it's, it is better in almost every aspect really. You know, we had an opportunity last year to sort of look over the entire car. I actually don't think AMR 22 was a bad car in any respects, particularly once we developed it during the year, but there were, there were several things that were


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[Assistant] In the way that the team would have liked, you know, because for various reasons there were two aerodynamic concepts, which meant that.


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[Assistant] A lot of the kind of internal packaging, a lot of the engineering design that would have gone into a car normally had to be sort of curtailed to some extent. And that meant the car just wasn't what it had the potential to be, I think as a brand new concept for a new set of regulations.


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[Assistant] So this is probably really the car that AMI-22 should have been.


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[Assistant] Or certainly a development on that. One of the things we managed to do last year was to sort of look at the whole car from nose to tail and say,


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[Assistant] What can we improve and what can we do? And I think that's, it's a testament to the sort of talent and commitment of the people who are here and some of whom have been here for many years.


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[Assistant] Given the opportunity to take that sort of overview of the car and say, okay, let's critically analyze what could we do if we had the time, if we were.