[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Look, prioritize your kids. This isn't like when you're on an airplane and a mask comes down from the ceiling, you gotta take care of yourself first. In this situation, I'd say take care of your kids first. Get your kid the way the Warrior Kid books. Cause guess what? You read them, it's gonna help you too.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Prioritize and execute for your neighbor, your neighbor's kids, your nephew, your niece, your grandkid. Get them these books. Make their entire life better.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So, there you go. Bunch of books, you know what they are. Echelon front.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] We solve problems through leadership. Go to echelonfront.com. We just sold out the, uh, Dallas muster. We're gonna sell out what we do.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So if you want to come to one of our events, go to echelonfront.com, check out events, FTX, council, battlefield.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] All kinds of awesome events going on. So check those out. We have a women's assembly coming up. Jamie Cochran, the COO of Echelon Front. She is running a leadership seminar for women.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So September 14th through the 16th in Phoenix, Arizona. Check that out. Also, we have an online training academy, ExtremeOwnership.com. Leadership is a skill.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Life is a skill. Isn't that weird? People say life skills. I'm gonna tell you life is a skill. And one of the skills, one of the skills of life


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Is leadership. And it helps you in every aspect of life.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It's little tricks, it's little techniques, tactics and procedures that you can actually use. And it's gonna make your entire life better.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Go to ExtremeOwnership.com. Take some classes. There's a free class on there.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] There's a free class, the barriers to extreme ownership. Take that free class. I'm just giving you something for free that's going to help every aspect of your life.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] We have the framework of extreme ownership. Go take that class. It's free.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Don't, I don't want anything from you. Just go take that class, it's gonna make your life better. We'll start there. Then if you need more, you can get more. There's a couple other free courses, but start with those two.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] We're here to help you become a better human. Extreme ownership dot com. And if you want to help service members active and retire, you want to help their families, you want to help gold star families, check out Mark Lee's mom.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Mama Lee, she's an incredible woman, she has an incredible charity organization that is truly


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And pragmatically helping veterans. There's no, there's no like mystery as to what she's doing.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He's up in the wilderness right now. Last report was he had, he was living in a cave, in a small cave with a couple bears. And he was the alpha. That's the last report that I got. So he is taking veterans up into the wilderness.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So they can find themselves. Heroesandhorses.org. Also, if you want to connect with us on the interwebs, docpreventure.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Matthewpreventure.com He's got thepredictors.com He's on Twitter and Instagram at DrPreventure He's on Facebook at MatthewpreventureMD He's got a YouTube channel Matthewpreventure28 So that's where you can find The Doc and also Echo.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Is that Equatorials? I am at Jocko Willink and we're on the social media platforms. We're on there. Just be careful. You guys know the deal. The algorithm is there to grab you. And try and, try and utilize your brain for its profit. That's what they're trying to do.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Trying to utilize your brain for its profits, like the Matrix.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Your body in that movie for what? Fuel? What is it? Heat? Yeah, fuel. Battery. Battery? Batteries.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So don't let it happen. That's what I'm saying. Also, thanks to all the military personnel out there. Obviously, thanks to Doc Preventer for coming down here. And thanks to, a special thanks to all the military medical personnel out there.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Thousands and thousands of you in the medical field inside the military.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Doctors, nurses, corpsmen, medics, PAs, ATs, thanks to all of you for your incredible dedication.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] To keeping us alive and keeping us healthy, we thank you. And also thanks to our police, law enforcement, firefighters, paramedics, EMTs, dispatchers, correctional officers, border patrol, secret service, all first responders out there, thank you for your dedication, keeping us safe and keeping us alive here at home. And to everyone else out there,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And that body requires discipline to maintain. And it doesn't get easier by the way.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It's one of those things, unfortunately, I'm sorry, I hate to break the news to you. It doesn't get easier to maintain as time goes on.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] There's some things in life, oh, you, you start playing guitar, it gets easier. The more you practice, the easier it gets. You start doing jujitsu, jujitsu gets easier the more you do it.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Maintaining your physical health.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Gets harder over time. Now look, it might get easier from, you know, age 14 to age, what, 45? Something like that.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeaah. Then it starts going, the resistance becomes harder.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It doesn't get easier. It gets harder. But let me tell you what's even worse as you let that slide.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You let that slide, and your physical fitness slide, LIFE is gonna get harder. Don't let that happen. And listen, there's no shortcuts. You have to put in the work.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You have to put in the work, so put in the work. Take care of yourself. Your body isn't a rental car.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] In the military, we had a little saying, what's the fastest car in reverse? It's a rental car. And an E3 driving it. It's the fastest car in the world in reverse.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Well listen, your body is not a rental car. You've got one. And it's the only one you're ever gonna have. So please, take care of it. And you do that by going out there every day. And getting after it.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And until next time, this is Echo and Jaco.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Or is he JP Denell? Yeaah! This is the same one. Okay. Yeaah, this was the same one. Okay. Yeaah, yeaah.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] This is Jocko Podcast number 422 with Echo Charles and me, Jocko Willink. Good evening, Echo. Good evening.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You've heard me talk about asking earnest questions. Uh, the purpose of doing that is to try and understand what someone else is thinking without putting them into a defensive mind, without making them suspicious, without flaring up their ego, bunch of things going on.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Generally speaking, asking earnest questions is an indirect approach of trying to understand other people's ideas. It's an open-minded approach. It's not like a scam. It's not a little trick.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It shouldn't cause someone to become defensive. In fact, if you do it correctly, the opposite should happen.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Good, earnest questions that you ask other people should.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Open up their mind, open up their... their...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That's what an earnest question should do. Asking earnest questions is not easy.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Your questions can become leading questions. They can become accusatory questions. They can even become blaming questions. Why did you do that? Right? Yeaah.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So I was thinking about the various approaches that you utilize and trust me I've tried to help a lot of people with this and one of the things that I thought about when I thought about questioning was questions that are used in a particular environment and that is the environment of interrogation.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So in order to get better at asking questions, I wanted to look at some interrogation methods. I know that when I got trained, actually I never trained as an interrogator other than like real rudimentary kind of what they call battlefield interrogation which is not


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Remotely a trained interrogator. Probably I learned more from going through our survival evasion resistance and escape school where they teach you the various methods that you're going to be interrogated. That's seer school. Seer school. Yep. Commonly referred to as seer school. Sure. Chili.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You know, it's down here in Southern California, but you know the mountains up by Julian? Yea. Like going up to that area? Yea, yea. That's where we were at. It was chilly in the wintertime.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That's what we're about to get into. So what we're about to dive into is we're about to dive into the Army's FM-34 TAC-52 intelligence interrogation. And I think it's just a good framework to expand our knowledge in the field of asking questions.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Make sure that we're building trust and we're building relationships with people instead of undermining trust and undermining relationships.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And I think you're gonna see that this is just, this is just a good familiarity that's gonna help us interacting with other people and give us some things to think about when we're interacting with other people.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You probably could, but we'd have to work on it a little bit. Sure. Like, if I was, it'd be like, like, hey, well.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] What you gotta do is you gotta put yourself, this is why it's important. That it's not a trick.


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[Assistant] As opposed to, I think you're an idiot. What was your thought process?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So we'll get into this book right here. This is a FM, like I said, FM 3452 intelligence interrogation from that department of the headquarters department of the army. This is actually from 1992, this copy that I got right here. And it's got a whole, it's got a bunch of sections, we're not going through the whole thing obviously, because it starts off


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Oftentimes the army does this, they're gonna take you like, from ground zero.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The Millet, like the first chapters, military intelligence missions and intelligence preparation of the battlefield. So like, really war fighting, war fighting doctrine, the intelligence cycle, intelligence disciplines, definite, a bunch of various definitions, articles of the Geneva Convention. So there's a lot of stuff. Look, if you were, if we were going to have a military interrogation, we'd go through it all.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, the next section is about composition and structure and this isn't like composition and structure of sentences or questions. This is about the tactical operations center and what it looks like at the division and what it looks like at the core level and what it looks like at the echelon above course so there's a bunch of


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It starts off with collection priority, so what are you looking for? It actually goes through, well, you know, if you, you want to find out the location of the enemy, you want to find out what, so it gives you what the priorities are.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Screening, which is just like an administrative process because the army has a process for everything.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The army don't play around. So they've got a process like, you capture someone, here's what you do with them, here's the first form that they fill, here's how you label this. So it goes through that whole thing.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And, and the planning and preparation is really, when it's talking about the plammer, planning and preparation, it's the logistics of interrogation.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Which we'll get into the approach phase, the questioning phase and determination phase. That's kind of what we're going to cover today.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Important couple things here that it starts off with so now we're gonna jump into it. The source's background.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] What's the source's age and level of military or civilian experience? Hey, isn't it good if you're gonna talk to someone? You're gonna ask someone some questions that you know a little bit of background about them?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The source of the person that you're in in this case. Yeah.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] They, they, they, they use a couple different terms. I'll call them out as we get to, but yeah, the source in this situation is the person that's giving you information. Uhm, the objective, the interrogation, how much time is available. So it's giving you some basic stuff. And then the interrogator himself, what abilities does he have that can be brought into play? So now we're talking about you.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] What do you have? What weaknesses do you have? So you got to kind of know yourself. It goes through that interrogators questions question.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Before you start drilling them with questions. So this is true. If I'm going to go talk to an employee that I don't really know very well, and he's one of your employees, I might go, hey Echo, what's their temperament like? How long have they been here for? Do they, are they good at their job? Do they show up late?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Some familiarity so I know what I'm dealing with. And that's an important part of sort of setting the stage.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And you, goes through some other, uhm, EPWs is a term that they used to call, that they use in this book, it's enemy prisoner of war. Or they see, or they say detainee. So, one of those two. Alright, now we're gonna get to the, sort of the brass tacks of it. It starts off with the approach phase.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] At the initial contact, a business like relationship should be maintained.


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[Assistant] As the EPW or detainee assumes a cooperative attitude, a more relaxed atmosphere may be advantageous. The interrogator must carefully determine which of the various approaches, approach techniques to employ.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Regardless of the type of EPW or detainee and his outward personality, he does possess weaknesses which, if recognized by an interrogator, can be exploited.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] These weaknesses are manifested in personality traits such as speech, mannerisms, facial expressions, physical movements, excessive perspiration, and other overt indications that may vary from EPW to detainee or detainee.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You gotta pay attention to what you're dealing with out of the gate. And very good point is being professional. Like a business like, when you meet someone. You ever had somebody, or you ever seen somebody tell a joke at a bad time?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yes sir, I have. It's, it's awkward, super awkward. Have you ever watched The Office? Yea. There's a lot of scenes like where Michael Scott's telling jokes and that no one is in the mood for jokes.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I told this, uh, one of the worst ones I've seen and this is why I have a rule. I have a rule if you're presenting.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Do not put jokes on slides. So if you got a PowerPoint presentation, don't put any jokes on there. Because you don't know what's going on in the room.


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[Assistant] You don't know what that room's gonna feel like. You don't know what the attitude's gonna be in there. So I was traveling the world with a four star general who was going to a bunch of different out, uh, outstations, special operations outstations. And we went into one and it was in Africa and it was in Djibouti Africa.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And superimposed it over a map of someone's ass.


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[Assistant] He wasn't, he was very PG rated. As a matter of fact, he might as, he might as, might very well have been G rated.


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[Assistant] And by the time they picked up on it, it was too late, because the slide was already up there. Like they started to realize that he was a more serious guy, and it wasn't going to be a funny funny joke joke situation, then clicked to the slide and says, da booty, and it was, it was not good. So let's always begin with professionalism.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Not, not being a jerk, not being cold, but just begin with professionalism.


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[Assistant] Just a business like, hey good to meet you or whatever when you're dealing with another human being.


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[Assistant] Going forward, from a psychological standpoint, the interrogator must be cognizant of the following behaviors. People tend to talk, especially after harrowing experiences.


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[Assistant] Show deference when confronted by superior authority.


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[Assistant] Rationalize acts about which they feel guilty.


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[Assistant] Fail to apply or remember lessons they may have been taught regarding security if confronted with a disorganized or strange situation.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] There's also a chance that they don't. You know, you get people that kind of turn inward. Uhm, and also just showing authority. Superior authority can kind of...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Can kind of get people to comply. See that's what, that's one of the, one of the tough things about police officers.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Tell somebody to do something from that position of authority. They kind of bark those orders at somebody. People listen to them.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It's the 1% of the time that someone doesn't listen, the day they can't escalate anymore, they don't know what to do.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Next, attach less importance to a topic about which the interrogator demonstrates identical or related experience or knowledge.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So if you act like you already know it or you act like you're familiar with it, people will be kind of more down to talk about it.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Appreciate flattery and exoneration from guilt. That's a big one right there, right? It's kind of what you just talked about with your daughter. You're like, oh, you didn't do anything wrong, but you know, I can see, hey, I can see where this happens.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Um, resent having someone or something they respect belittled. Especially by someone they dislike. Again, just important thing to keep in mind.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So if you belittle something that they care about, you're going to be not getting a good relationship going.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Respond to kindness and understanding during trying circumstances. That makes sense, right? Be nice to people.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You know, or a waitress, or a hostess.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Have you ever been to Malibu, California? Yea. There's like really nice cars everywhere. Yea. It's kinda, it fits the stereotype of what you kinda think. Yea.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I was with my son, we were surfing up there, he was like 10 or whatever, and we'd just like go to the gas station for a little while, cuz McLarens are coming in, Lamborghinis are coming in, it's pretty


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But, if you're nice to the valet dude, he's probably gonna take care of you a little bit more.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Establish and maintain control over the source and interrogation.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Establish and maintain rapport between the interrogator and the source


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I think when it says establish and maintain control over the source and the interrogation, I think sometimes at least showing that person that they have some control is a good way to get people to talk more. Yeaah. Right?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I like watching the, just for this very reason, you ever watch the, nevermind crime shows, I'm talking like, well I guess maybe you're talking about actual interrogations.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And when I went through Sears School, the soft cell got me more than the hard cell did. Like while them slapped me around and all that, I just was like more firm and not talking.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But, when they caught me off guard, like the first time that someone was nice to me, I was like, oh. And it's not like I gave up information, but what do they do? They get you to...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] They get you to like, eat something. And then they got you on video that they're feeding, you know. See, we're taking perfect care of them. And you know, they say, is there anything we can do for you? And you're like, if you say,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yes, you can do this, and then you're giving them an opportunity to turn that into propaganda. So you say, no, I'm okay, and then, but you said it in kind of a nice way, and they said it in a nice way, so it sounds like they're taking it. So that, that was definitely harder to deal with. It's counterintuitive. Because when someone's nice to you, you're nice to them. And that's just what they're taking advantage of, and that's what they're saying right here.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, it goes on to say the source may or may not be aware he is providing the interrogator with information about enemy forces. Some approaches may be complete when the source begins to answer questions. Others may have to be constantly maintained or reinforced throughout the interrogation.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The techniques used in an approach can best be defined as a series of events, not just verbal conversation between the interrogator and source. The exploitation of the source's emotion can be harsh or gentle in application.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Some useful techniques used by interrogators are hand and body movements, actual physical contact, such as a hand on the shoulder for reassurance, and then, my personal favorite, silence.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Stern, the interrogator keeps the EPW or detainee at attention. The aim is to make the EPW or detainee keenly aware of his helpless and inferior status. Interrogators use this posture with officers, NCOs and security conscious enlisted men.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] In sympathetic posture, the interrogator addresses the EPW in a friendly fashion, striving to put him at ease. The posture is commonly used in interrogating older, younger EPWs. So that's what we're talking about.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] What I found is when they use these two kind of, classic good cop, bad cop, right? The guy comes in and is a jerk to you. They usually do bad cop first.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, total element of relief. That's what, that's what feels good.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, frightened persons, regardless of rank, will invariably talk in order to relieve tension once they hear a sympathetic voice in their own tongue. So there you go, that's what you just said.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] There are many variations of these basic postures. Goes into some of those.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Interrogator must not waste time in pointless discussions or make promises he can't keep. For example, the interrogator is granting political asylum. And it goes in this whole thing why you can't do that. And this is an interesting thing you were talking about your daughter earlier.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Fake promises. If you are not, if you make fake promises as a parent, you just, you're doing a terrible job. You're doing a terrible job. If you make a promise, you need to keep that promise.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] This is interesting, right? Under no circumstances will the interrogator betray surprise at anything that EPW might say. This is a good one to have. This is a good one to have.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Not acting surprised when people tell you things is like such a powerful thing, especially when they're trying to tell you something to shock you.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Many EPWs will talk freely if they feel the information they are discussing is already known to the interrogator. That's not the reason the same, so what they're saying is,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] If you start telling me something, and I just act like I'm not surprised, like yeah, I already, yeah, of course you were in this position and you had this many guys with you. If I act like it's no big deal, you'll kind of keep talking, but if I'm like, wait, what? Then I, then you go, shh, I'm giving away information.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] When things are getting a little bit wild, and you're just like, yeah Roger. Yeah. And your main thing is just to nod your head and say Roger that.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Getting control of your emotions and not overreacting when you hear something is...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] A powerful skill that can't be underestimated at all.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It goes into a thing here about how to develop rapport.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Report must be maintained throughout the interrogation, not only in the approach phase. Again, what's interesting about this is


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I say look, if I want to interact with another person, I want to improve our relationship.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So that's what we're doing with this rapport. So when I'm doing something to you that's making our relationship worse, it's a problem. I don't want to be doing that thing.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now some people might be thinking right now like, oh you never would tell Echo that doesn't make sense? Well, would I say if you present your plan to me and I say that doesn't make sense, what just happened to our relationship to go up or down?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Went down a little bit. If I said, hey Echo, I'm not sure I fully understand this, can you explain this to me and just let me understand the details here?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And I'm, I'm essentially doing the same thing. Yea, asking the exact same thing, yea. So we want to develop rapport. Uhm.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Depending on the situation and request the source may have made, an interrogator can also use the following


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You can also, this is an interesting one, feign experience similar to those of the source.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, it's freezing out there right now, isn't it? You know, it's like, oh yeah. We're kind of the same. We're kind of bros. You've washed your first blood.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Show concern for the source through the use of voice vitality and body language. Help the source rationalize his guilt. That's an interesting one. Kind of like, well again.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Help them rationalize their guilt. Show kindness and understanding toward the source's predicament. It's a good one.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Flatter the source. Isn't it, isn't it interesting that flattery is like the cheapest little easiest thing, but it actually works? It is, right? It's like so cheap. How much does it cost to say like, oh, I like the way you handled that or whatever.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Approaches chosen in planning and preparation are tentative and based on sometimes scanty information available from documents, cards, and personal observation. So we're trying to figure out how to approach this person, but it may change. It may change.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] This may lead the interrogated to select approaches which may be totally incorrect for obtaining this sources willing cooperation. Thus, careful assessment of the source is critical to avoid wasting valuable time in the approach phase. The questions can be mixed or separate.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] If, for example, the interrogator has tentively chosen a love of comrades approach, he should ask the source questions like, how did you get along with your fellow squad members?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] If the source answers they were all very close and worked well as a team, the interrogator can use this approach and be reasonably sure of its success. However, if the source answers they all hated my guts and I couldn't stand any of them, the interrogator should quickly abandon that approach and ask some non pertinent questions to give himself time to work out a new approach.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So keep an open mind on your approach as you're going, as you're communicating.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And it talks about these transitions, how you gotta transition, uh, smoothly and logically to guide the conversation. And especially if you have to go from one approach to another. Poking and hoping in the approach may alert the prisoner to ploys and will make the job more difficult.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Isn't it interesting that you can just kinda put someone at ease and they'll talk?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] We'll go into a company and they're almost always surprised when we go and talk to the frontline troops.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Like, we'll go back to the headshed and say, oh, uh,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You know, here's a problem with your manufacturing line.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And they'll be like, uh, uh, who told you that? Be like, oh, you know, we won't give names or whatever, but we'll say, oh, you know, people at this shift talk, talk us through what their shortfalls were. They can't believe, oh, nevermind the manufacturer. They'll be like, oh, this person doesn't get along with this person and this, this person's not aligned with that. But like everybody knows.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] They, they want to talk about what's happening at their work where they work eight to ten hours a day.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Right, someone comes in and is truly curious, they're like, oh I got a whole drama going on.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Every source has a breaking point, but an interrogator never knows what it is until it's been reached. There are, however, some good indicators the source is near his breaking point or has already reached it. For example, if during the approach the source leans forward with his facial expressions indicating an interest,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] In the proposal or is more hesitant in his argument he's probably nearing his breaking


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] This is something you get, that you see in those videos, those police videos, when they're doing the interrogation. And like, at a certain point, they just, they're done, and they just like, explain the whole deal. The whole deal comes out.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] At this point, it's important to note the amount of time spent with a particular source depends on several factors. The battlefield situation, expediency with which the supported commander's requirements need to be answered, and the source's willingness to talk. So it could take...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] With the exception of the direct approach, no other approach is effective by itself. And this is one thing that's very interesting about this whole thing, is the whole, it talks about the direct approach being like,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Which is interesting, because I always talk about the indirect approach. But I think the whole idea of people being frazzled and in dynamic situations


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] They're mentally set to just get asked what's happening and talk.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Interrogators use different approach techniques or combine them into cohesive logical technique. Smooth transitions, security or sincerity, logic and conviction almost always make a strategy work. The lack of will undoubtedly looms to dooms it to failure. Some examples


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Of combinations are direct approach, futility, and then incentive. Or incentive. Direct futility, then love of comrades. Direct fear up, mild, then insensitive. So they're, so they're giving you approaches and how you can take these approaches and we'll get to what these are.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Okay, so we got direct, incentive, emotional, increased fear up, and then pride and ego.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The first one is direct approach. The interrogator asked direct questions directly related to information sought, making no effort to conceal the interrogation's purpose. The direct approach, always the first to be attempted is used on EPWs or detainees who the interrogator believes will cooperate. Do you think the person's going to cooperate? You can go ahead and just start firing away on them.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The direct approach is simple to use and it's possible to obtain the maximum amount of information in the minimum amount of time. It is frequently employed at lower echelons when the tactical situation precludes selecting other techniques and where the EPWs or detainees mental state is one of confusion and extreme shock.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So that, that's I think why it makes sense. You've got someone that's kind of a junior person. Their, their mental state is kind of disrupted. They're in from the lower echelons of the organization. You go and you're like,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] They know what's going on. Like the way the world is, like you've just been captured. You're cuffed. You've had a bag over your head for 20 minutes. Now you're in a room. A guy pulls the bag off your head. If you're not a straight G hottest, you're ready to talk. You're like, yo, I'll tell you what's up.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] If you're a jihadist, that person's not gonna talk, so direct questions or not, it doesn't matter. They're not gonna say anything.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The direct approach is most effective. Statistics show in World War II, it was 90% effective. In Vietnam, and operations Urgent Fury, Just Cause, and Desert Storm, it was 95% effective.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I haven't seen that kind of effectiveness. Like we would do what we call battlefield interrogation, which is you capture someone, you're gonna ask them questions right now.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The jihadists were a little bit, you could tell the jihadists they wouldn't say anything. Like a true, like, jihadist, like a foreign fighter, they weren't saying shit.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Lower echelon, not really in the game. You ask them a couple of questions, they're ready to tell you what's going on, what's happening, what's happening.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, so that's the first one, direct approach. Again, I think if you're


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Talking about normal interaction with other human beings, direct approach, you need to use caution.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Matter of fact, I would say you don't use the direct approach. You escalate toward the direct approach over time and I think you'll find that seldom will you make it all the way to the direct approach.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The next one is incentive approach. The incentive approach is based on the application of inferred discomfort upon the EPW who lacks willpower. The EPW may display fondness for certain luxury items such as candy, fruit, or cigarettes. This fondness provides the interrogator


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Talks about the Geneva Convention. Like, you can't infringe on the rights that they have.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] False or inaccurate information to gain desired luxury on. So if you think I'll give you a cigarette, if you tell me this, they're gonna tell you something.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Is torture's ineffective? Because people will just say whatever they gotta say to get it to stop. And so what they find over time is that torture doesn't really work.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Through EPW observation, the interrogator can often identify dominant emotions which motivate. The motivating emotions might be greed, love, hate, revenge, or others. The interrogator employs


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Verbal and emotional ruses in applying pressure.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] This technique can be used on the EPW who has a great love for his unit and fellow soldiers. The interrogator may take advantage of this fully by telling the EPW that by providing pertinent information, he may shorten a war or battle in progress and save many of his comrades lives. But his refusal to talk might cause their deaths.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] This places the burden on the EPW or detainee and may motivate him to seek relief through cooperation.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] If you understand the emotions of the person you're talking to,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You can do a better job of communicating with them and getting them to communicate back to you.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] This approach usually involves some incentives such as communication with the source's family or a quicker end to the war to save his comrades lives. A good interrogator will usually orchestrate some futility with an emotional love approach to hasten the sources reaching the breaking point.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The other end of the spectrum is emotional hate approach. The emotional hate approach focuses on any genuine hate or possible desire for revenge the source may feel. The interrogator must ascertain exactly what it is the source may hate so the emotion can be exploited to override the source's rational side.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The source may have negative feelings about his country's regime, immediate superiors, officers in general, or his fellow soldiers. Yeah.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The emotional hate approach can be used more effectively by drawing out the sources negative emotions with questions that elicit thought provoking response. For example, why do you think they allowed you to be captured? Why do you think they left you to die?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Many sources have great love for their country, but may hate the regime and control.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The emotional hate approaches most effective with the immature or timid source who may have no opportunity up to this point for revenge or never had the courage to voice his feelings. Okay. Next we get into the fear up approach.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Fear up approaches the exploitation of a sources pre-existing fear during the period of capture or interrogation. This you'll see. I don't know if your kids are old enough for this yet, but you'll definitely see some pre-existing fear where they get busted doing something.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, the approach works best with the young, inexperienced sources or sources who exhibit a greater than normal amount of fear and nervousness. Again, you're dealing with a straight jihadi.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Like, you get, you can almost tell, well you could tell, like a jihadi.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The look on their face, they're not gonna say anything, and someone that's not really in the game, or is like a junior person, they're scared, and they're ready to talk.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So you can fear up that person and it's going to have some effect.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] A source's fear may be justified or unjustified. For example, a source who's committed a war crime may justifiably fear prosecution punishment. By contrast, a source who has been indoctrinated by enemy propaganda


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That's what happened with a lot of the Japanese. The Japanese in World War II, they, they were told that they would just be slaughtered and killed, that we took no prisoners. And so they fought to the death. This worked out pretty good for them. But when we captured them, they thought they were gonna die anyways.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So the first approach is fear up within parentheses harsh.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] In this approach, the interrogator behaves in an overpowering manner with a loud and threatening voice. The interrogator may even feel the need to throw objects across the room to heighten the source's implanted feelings of fear. Great care must be taken when doing this so any acts would not violate


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The prohibition on coercion and threats contained in the Geneva Convention Article 7.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You know, you're gonna start hucking stuff around the room. You ever done that? No.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, I'm trying to think if the last time I threw something.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It won't work someday. I don't think, I'm trying to think if I've thrown something, I really can't think of anything right now.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] There's some quote from some president who says like, he tells the story about how he threw a pen and then he had to go pick it up. That for some reason that always stuck with me as like, dude, you just did something dumb.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, generally speaking, those kind of dramatics, I mean, look, we're talking about people that have just been captured on the battlefield. There may be some level of, uh,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Impact. Yea. But like you start throwing stuff around your house.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I recommend you don't throw anything despite the recommendations here. The next one is fear up and it's in parentheses mild. This approach is better suited to the strong confidence type of interrogator. There's generally no need to raise the voice or reserve back to heavy handed table banging.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And then the fear of mild approach must be credible.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And then you get the fear down. This is what you were talking about earlier. Fear down approach. This technique is nothing more than calming the source and convincing him he will be properly and humanely treated. Telling him the wars, the war for him is mercifully over and he need not go into combat again.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] When using the soothing, calm tone of voice, this often creates rapport and usually nothing else is needed to get the source to cooperate.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Just being cool is a good way to get it done.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] If the EPW is so frightened he has withdrawn into a shell, this is what I was talking about earlier. Like I've seen people that are just like scared, they can't talk.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] An interrogator must break through to him. The interrogator can do this by putting himself on the same physical level as the source. This might require some physical contact. As the source relaxes and begins to respond to kindness, the interrogator can begin asking questions.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] After convincing the source he has nothing to fear, he may cease to be afraid and may feel secure enough to resist the interrogator's pertinent questions. That's a good little point.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And then you get into, so those are the fear methodologies. And then you get into the pride and ego approach.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] We've talked about these before, because these are pretty common. But, understanding them, not only for when you need to use them, but also when they're being used on you, it's a good thing to pay attention to. Pride and ego approach. This, the strategy of this approach is to trick the source into revealing desired information by goading or flattering him.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It is effective with sources who have displayed weakness or feelings of inferiority. This is such a-


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Such an obvious one. A real or imaginary deficiency voiced about the source, loyalty or his organization or any other feature can provide a basis of this technique.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The interrogator accuses the source of weakness or implies he's unable to do a certain thing. This type of source is also prone to excuses and reasons why he did not do a certain thing, often shifting blame to others. An example is opening the interrogation with the question, why did you surrender so easily when you could have escaped by crossing the nearby ford in the river?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] This technique can also be employed in another manner by flattering the source into admitting certain information in order to gain credit. For example, while interrogating a suspected saboteur, the interrogator states, this was a smooth operation. I've seen many previous attempts fail. I bet you planned this. Who else but a clever person like you could have planned it?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] A problem with pride and ego approach is it relies on trickery. The source will eventually realize he has been tricked. He may refuse to cooperate further. If this occurs, the interrogator can easily move into fear up approach and convince the source that the questions he has already answered have committed him and it would be useless to resist further.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] They got Colonel Jessup, right? Very, very, uh, I mean at least in that vein. Yeaah. You know? Yeaah. Totally in that vein.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeaah. Interesting. And, and kinda like belittling him.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] To make him lash out. When he lashed out, he admit, yeaah, that's full, full on ego down. I guess you'd say that's ego down.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Ego up approach, this approach is effective on sources with little or no intelligence. Where those have been looked on, looked down on for a long time. It's very effective on low ranking enlisted personnel and junior grade officers as it allows the source to finally show someone they do indeed have some brains.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] This interrogator must take care to use a flattering somewhat in-awe tone of voice and speak highly of the source throughout this approach. This quickly produces positive feelings on the source's part as he probably has been looking for this type of recognition all of his life.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, I've definitely seen that activity go down before.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It goes into some body language here. Effective targets for a successful pride and ego up approach are usually socially accepted reasons for flattery such as appearance or good military bearing. The interrogator should closely watch the source's demeanor for indications the approach is working.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Some indicators to look for are raising the head, a look of pride in the eyes, swelling of the chest, stiffening of the back.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And then you get into the ego down. Pride down and ego down approach. This approach is based on attacking the source's sense of personal worth.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Any source who shows any real or imagined inferiority or weakness about himself, loyalty to his organization or captured under embarrassing circumstances can easily be broken with this approach technique.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The objective is for the interrogator to pounce on the source's sense of pride by attacking his loyalty, intelligence, abilities, leadership qualities, slovenly appearance, or any other perceived weakness. This will usually goad the source into becoming defensive and he will try and convince the interrogator he's wrong. In this attempt to redeem his pride, the source will


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Expressions of distaste or disgust, the source will readily believe him. Possible targets for pride and ego down approach are the source's loyalty, technical competence, leadership abilities, social equalities, appearance.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So, those are all just good. Next up is futility. This is another approach. In this source, the interrogator convinces the source that resistance to questioning is futile. Cool.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You're not finished here until you answer these questions. Everyone talks sooner or later. The futility of the battlefield situation, futility in the sense if the source does not mind talking about history, why should he mind talking about his missions? They're also history.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Making the situation appear hopeless allows the source to rationalize his actions, especially if that action is cooperating with the interrogator.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You see this a lot with the police. Like, hey, it doesn't matter, we already know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's the futility or your, it's like, there's no point in resisting right now. You're already, we already got you on video.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Which is similar to this next approach, which is we know all. To begin the interrogation, the interrogator asks questions based on known data. When the source hesitates, refuses to answer, provides an incorrect or incomplete reply, the interrogator provides the detailed answer. The detailed answer, that's a nice little trick.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] This is an approach. The file and dossier approach is used when the interrogator prepares a dossier containing all available information obtained from documents concerning the source or his organization. Careful arrangement of the material within the file may give the illusion it contains more data than is actually there. The file may be padded with extra paper if necessary.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Index tabs with titles such as education, employment, criminal record, military service and others are particularly effective.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And he is not the person he purports to be. In an effort to clear himself of this allegation, the source makes a genuine and detailed effort to establish or substantiate his true identity.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] In so doing, he may provide the interrogator with information and leads for further development.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The establish your identity approach was effective in Vietnam, with the Viet Cong, and in operations just causing desertion. I wonder, they're gonna have so much more.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So much more, we have 20 years of war in Iraq and Afghanistan, but I gotta get the updated manual and see how all this stuff, see what they learned because


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Just cause like they're talking about that really or desert storm those are short operations. Repetition.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] This approach is used to induce cooperation from a hostile source.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] In one variation of this approach, the interrogator listens carefully to a sources answers to a question, then repeats the question and answer several times.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Rapid fire involves, oh this is the next one, rapid fire involves a psychological ploy based on the principle that everyone likes to be heard when he speaks. It's confusing to be interrupted in mid-sentence with an unrelated question. So you're just going bam, bam, bam, bam. And this is my favorite one. Silent.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] This approach may be successful and used against the nervous or confident source. It's interesting, both the nervous source and the confident source. When employing this technique, the interrogator says nothing to the source but looks him squarely in the eye, preferably with a slight smile on his face.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I've definitely, yeaah, you go those, uhm, videos of guys that are in the face-off. And the one guy's all super aggro in the face-off and gets knocked out in 38 seconds.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Dude, what about when Rose, Thug Rose was just like staring and just reciting the Lord's Prayer, I think, or something like that. That was pretty impressive. That was a good standoff. Remember Vandelay back in the day? He had the most hype stare downs, right?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, serial killer, basically, just like staring back at her. Oh, the one that she won? Yeaah, the one that Holly won. And it was like, okay, maybe some of that overaggressiveness was like a little, you know, trying to, trying to psych themselves up. Yeaah, hype themselves up.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Check. Continue on with this silent approach. The source may become nervous, begin to shift his chair across and recross his legs and look away. He may ask questions, but the interrogator should not answer until he's ready to break the silence. The source may blurt out such questions as, come on now, what do you want with me?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] When the interrogator is ready to break the silence, he may do so with some nonchalant questions such as, you planned this operation for a long time, didn't you? Was it your idea?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The interrogator must be patient when using this technique. It may appear the technique is not succeeding, but usually will when given a reasonable chance. I was like a long time ago buying a car with my wife or whatever. Sure. You know, we're doing the deal.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Whether it was like, well what, you know, well how much do you think the car is worth? Or I don't know what question, but I just sat there, and there was just silence.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Oh yea, people definitely know. The weird thing is though, it still is functional.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But yea, I think too, there's like a more modern version of negotiation, especially like when buying stuff or where people recognize that


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You're a client. I need to take care of you. Of course, you know, I need to make money, right? Like we can come up with a more sort of equal deal than


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Back in the day, like even when I joined the Navy, when I first got to San Diego, like if you went down to the


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Probably some of it has to do with the fact that communication is so much more vast and webbed now. And you can do a Yelp review and you can, there's so many ways to overcome it. Well, they used to be like, hey, you drove off a lot, dude, no, I was never gonna see you again.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, definitely the strategic approach because thinking about if I sell you a car and I kind of take care of you Yeah, you're gonna you're gonna give me five referrals or three referrals and that's gonna do way better than I jacked you for an extra 300 bucks


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It was a different game back in the day. I'm sure there's still some of that and there has to be some of that, right?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And even like I was saying, like I was buying this car for my wife back in the day and like it worked. The one of the, if you were actually buying something.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You gotta be able to walk away. That's like, you gotta not really want the thing. Yeaah. Or you gotta at least convince yourself that you don't really want the thing. If you really want the thing, you're not in a good position to negotiate, right? Yeaah. If you really, really want it, and they can smell that. So now you're like, oh.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Oh, I got another guy coming to look at it this afternoon. You know what if you don't want it's fine cuz I got another guy he's coming in this afternoon He's he's been looking all over for this one. Yeah


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Developing using good questioning, developing and using good questioning techniques enable the interrogator to obtain accurate and pertinent information by following a logical sequence.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Direct questions. Questions should be presented in a logical sequence to avoid neglecting significant topics and again this is getting into like the interrogation and military part of it where you don't want to miss certain pertinent topics.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, the interrogator must consider the probable response of the source to a particular question or line of questioning and should not, if at all possible, ask direct questions likely to evoke a refusal to answer or antagonize the source.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] This is like the old sales thing where they're just trying to get you to say yes a bunch of times. And it like conditions you to say yes. How much truth is there to that?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That's a different question then. Do you have five minutes right now? It's hard to say yes to that.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Non pertinent questions is the one that it starts with. Non pertinent questions are used to conceal the interrogation's objectives or to strengthen rapport from the source. They may be used to break the source's concentration, particularly if the interrogator suspects the source or suspects the source is lying. It's hard for a source to convince, to be a convincing liar if his concentration is frequently interrupted. Okay.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So you're gonna, you're gonna have some random questions in there, some non pertinent questions, repeated questions, repeated questions, ask the source for the same information obtained in response to earlier questions. They may be exact repetitions of the previous question or the previous question may be rephrased or otherwise disguised. The use of repeated questions may develop a topic, the source


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Had refused to talk about earlier. Repeated questions may also be used to check source reliability, ensure accuracy of important details, return to a topical area for further questioning. Okay.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Control questions are developed from recently confirmed information that is not likely to have changed. They are used to check the truthfulness of the source's responses and should be mixed in with other questions throughout the interrogation.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] This is a, I would say that I utilize control questions, but it's more like controlled questions about things that I agree with you on.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So like, if I'm, if we've gotta go do, if I agree with you on A, B, C, and D, I won't come in and say, Hey, what's going on with D?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You tell me what's going on, I'm like, I don't like that. But I go, hey, what's going on with A? And you tell me, oh, that sounds good. What about B? And you tell me, and I go, okay, that's cool. And then I say, what about C? And you tell me how you're going to handle that. And I go, that's a good plan. And by now, you and I are bros. You know? And now I go, hey, what about D? And you tell me what you're going to do. And I'm like, hey, I'm not


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Are you sure that might be the best approach to that? You go, well why do you say that?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Gonna confirm some stuff that we agree upon before I jump and hit you with something that I know where you got a disagreement on.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I should probably go do a roleplay with my peer or my boss before. If I got a fire echo and I roll in there and I want to talk to you about your performance and why you're getting fired, I better roleplay that a little bit, make sure I got some good answers.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Questions to avoid. Interrogators should avoid the following types of questions. Leading questions.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Leading questions require the source to answer yes or no. They do not elicit narrative answers. They also prompt the source to answer the question in a way he thinks the interrogator wants to hear it.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] On the stand, in congress, and the congressman will be like


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Well, do you think that blah blah blah and the person will be like, well, you know what, it's a yes or no question.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And the people, the, the people on the stand don't want to give a yes or no answer. Yeah. A lot of times.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Did you see the university presidents getting interrogated by the congressional members about the use of language, anti-Semitic language at Harvard, MIT, and I think Brown, maybe, university?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Or maybe it wasn't brown. But it was definitely Harvard at MIT, cause the Harvard, or maybe it was Penn. Anyways, the Harvard president was the one that got, well she said she resigned, but she got fired. But when you watch that,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It was very strange to see how conf- how confused they were about the situation and not real- and by the way, when I say they were confused, they didn't realize how stupid they looked. Like that one president from Harvard


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Thought she was doing great. You could see this little smirk she had on her face and she's like looking as if...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] In her mind, she's just doing this awesome job. Yeah. And anyone that's watching it is cringing.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] What is wrong with you? It was very strange to watch but you could see that


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] From the smirk on her face and the smirk on the other women's faces that were supposed to be answering these questions. They thought that they were really smart and thought that they were just kicking ass up there. It was kind of crazy to watch how just totally off base they were.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Negative questions. These are questions, types of questions you should avoid again. Negative questions should never be used during an interrogation. They imply the source should reply in the negative. And this sometimes confuses or leads the source to provide false information. For example, you're not in the first company, are you?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Negative questions usually require additional questions to clarify. Okay, that makes sense. Compound questions, this is what you were just talking about.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Before you were captured today, were you traveling north or south? Like a compound question that could have correct parts and incorrect parts all in the same question. Gotta watch out for those.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, vague questions do not have enough information for the source to understand exactly what's being asked, so don't use them. And that's what it goes into there.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Check responses to repeated questions, point out inconsistencies of the source, gain the cooperation of other sources, compare with information received from other sources. So it goes into a big thing about taking notes and recording and all that. So pretty straight forward.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And then it gets into the termination phase, which is when you're gonna end the interrogation. When is necessary or prudent, the interrogator will terminate the interrogation. There are many ways to conduct a termination, but the following points must be conveyed to the source.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The approaches used to break the source must be reinforced. Any promised incentives should be rendered. The reinforcement must be sincere and convincing as the source may be interrogated again.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Evacuation guard as appropriate. It's more of a technical thing.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And then it says what this is the last point for that we're going to cover the termination


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Procedures, whatever the reason for terminating the interrogator must remember that there is a possibility someone may want to question the source at a later date. For that reason, he should terminate without any loss of rapport when possible. He offers the opportunity for the source to change or add


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Any information he's given. So you want to end on a good note.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Essentially is what it's saying, which is a good, a good policy to keep.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Interacting with other human beings. It's like we, I said in the middle of this thing, when I'm gonna communicate with someone, I want that to improve our relationship.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] My interaction with another human being I want our relationship to get better. That's what my goal is. And it's important to think about the way that you ask questions.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And how you behave and what history is in the situation all impacts that interaction that you're about to have. So think about that. Think about that.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Because every interaction you have either builds a relationship or breaks down. I suppose there's a small amount that keeps it neutral, sure. But most of the time you interact with another person, you make things a little bit better.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Or you make things a little bit worse, sometimes you make them a lot worse. Sometimes you make them a lot better.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But you certainly want to improve the relationship, build the relationship, not break it down. That's what we're doing.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] If you're aware of this, if you're thinking about it, just like you're talking about all these little sales techniques.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] If you're aware of them, you're going to be that much better off.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So if you actually consider and are aware of the way you're interacting with other people, you're gonna be better off.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Gonna be better off in anything, everything that you do. There's no time when having an antagonistic relationship with other people helps. I should say almost no time. Maybe if that person is like a serial killer or whatever.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But other than that, people you work with, family members, friends, people at the gym, people in your jujitsu class, people in the other department that you sometimes work with, the contractors that are helping out your company at the time,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] There's no time where having an antagonistic relationship with those people is going to help you. Your boss, your peers, there's no time.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] There's no time. There's no time where you have to interact with another human being and you treat them bad or you don't get along that it's going to benefit you. It just doesn't, it just doesn't happen.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Look, is there some niche freaking moment in time? Sure there is. I don't know what it is. You know, the person was about to, uh,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But generally speaking, the vast majority of the time.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] If you think about how you interact with other people, you can improve those relationships and you're gonna be better off across the board.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That's what we're doing. Alright. What do we got? What else are we doing? We're doing what we're getting after it. Yep. Kind of in a big way. Did you train this weekend? I didn't see you training this weekend. I did not train this weekend. Did you jitsu? Did you jitsu? No. Did you jitsu? Did you lift? I hope.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Benefits outweigh the negatives, for me personally.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That's the main thing. As long as you're exercising. You could get caught up in like where the sun is in the sky and what time you're lifting or you could lift. Yeaah. Before the sun comes up. My recommendation by the way. There you go. Hey, you're gonna need fuel. None the less.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I said jocofuel.com. Get you some clean. Get you some good, clean fuel. Get the hydrate. Get the greens.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] My recommendation is mixed creatine into your greens. Echoes is mixed into your hydrate. You can go either way. I'm good with either way. Or all three. Maybe all three of the above. I have put all three together, it's good.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You don't, you don't take the greens? I don't take the greens.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Why, why, why do you take hydrate in the morning? I don't know. You haven't sweated yet.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Alright, that's what we're doing. The greens taste good. That's one of the little bonuses. It's not like you have to choke them down. It's not like you have to do a shot of tequila. Did you drink tequila back in the day? Yea, here and there. It tastes so bad.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I smell that stuff now and I'm like, what is, how can we, how have, how have people been convinced to drink this? To pay money to drink this stuff. It smells terrible.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I don't think I ever did that with tequila. Gosh. Once you don't drink.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Alcohol just seems terrible. Yeah, and this well the smell of it


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Well look, you don't need alcohol. I'm here to tell you right now. You know what you do need?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] JockoFuel. Protein. You need protein. Maybe you need some energy. Get some go. Anyways, you guys know the deal. JockoFuel.com. Go check it out. Also, you can get it at Wawaw, Vitamin Shop, GNC, Military Commerce Series, APHES, Hanford, Dash Stores in Maryland, Wakefurn, ShopRite, HEB, Meyer.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Wegmans, Harris Teeter, Lifetime Fitness, Shields, and small gyms everywhere. People, we got all kinds of people that are selling Jocko Fuel in their gyms now. If you want to sell Jocko Fuel in your gym,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Also, if you need gear, if you need clothing, cause from what I read, if you had clothing, you could survive more. Cause you wouldn't freeze.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And we make clothing here in America. OriginUSA.com. Go get yourself some jeans, some boots, get yourself a rash guard.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Get yourself some workout clothes. Get yourself some hunt gear. Whatever you need. We got you.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] We got you. OriginUSA.com. Made in America. That's what we're doing. Get yourself some freedom. Get yourself some OriginUSA.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Also, check out PrimoBeef.com or ColoradoCraftBeef.com so you can get some steak.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Some ground beef, some burgers. I'm about to go have a burger. How do you like that? I guess what I had last night for dinner, burgers. Yeah. Three burger patties with some grilled onions. Yeah. My wife made enough grilled onions to supply an army.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You probably put on those little Hawaiian sweet rolls. Yeaah. I can see where that's at. I've had it in a restaurant where you do that.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Try that, try that, report back. Well, if you need that beef to make that with, go to ColoradoCraftBeef.com or go to PrimalBeef.com, get the quality stuff. It makes a big difference too. It makes a big difference if you get the quality, quality meat.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, subscribe to the podcast, subscribe to Jocko Underground, subscribe to the YouTube channels, we got a bunch of them. Jocko Podcast. Jocko Fuel.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Echelon Front, Origin USA. Check out all those YouTube channels. Psychological Warfare. FlipsideCanvas.com


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Dakota Meyer, making cool stuff to hang on your wall. Also, we got books. I've written a bunch of books, mostly about leadership. I've also written a bunch of kids books, so check those out. Ashland Front, leadership consultancy, ashlandfront.com. If you need help inside your organization, so you can develop relationships down across the chain of command and have a better running team. Go to Ashland Front.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And if you want to get trained in this stuff, in these skills for leadership in life, go to extremeownership.com and take some of our online classes. And if you want to help service members,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Echoes at Echo Charles, I'm at Jocko Wong. Just be careful because there's an algorithm that's gonna try and steal your life away from you. So don't let that happen. Thanks everyone out there in uniform. The Cloth of the Nation.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Thank you for holding the line and keeping freedom and democracy safe in the world also thanks to our police, law enforcement, firefighters, paramedics, EMTs, dispatchers, correctional officers, border patrol, secret service, as well as all other force responders.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Thanks for keeping us safe here at home and everyone else out there. Listen, you aren't an interrogator. That's not why we did this today. I don't want you to try and be an interrogator.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Give them trust. Listen to them. Treat them with respect. Allow yourself to be influenced by them. Care about them as people.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That's how you build relationships and good relationships with people in your world.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] We'll make your world and the world a better place. And until next time, this is Echo and Jocko.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That's like, that's like, you watch your kid get a good wave. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. You feel good about that.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That was a third measure video, right? Yea, like he was watching your video on the video. Third measure? Yea. Talk to me about third measure. What's going on with third measure?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Right. But, but. The closer's not really. Well isn't that a comedic term? I think it is.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It says sugar coated lies, and it kinda looks like Krispy Kreme, right? Yup. That's the, that's the homage. Lies, lies, lies, something like that on the bottom. Yup. Sugar coated lies. Sugar coated lies.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] This is Jocko Podcast number 425 with Echo Charles and me, Jocko Willink. Good evening, Echo.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I've gotta go. My voice is hoarse with dread and sorrow. Why can't they just leave us alone? Why can't we just be left alone? She asked no one. Her voice is tight with fear.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Fear is growing in me as well. Wild ideas flash through my mind. We could run away, hide in some mountains, or even somewhere in the Texas Canyon country. Anywhere to relieve this feeling of having lost all control over our lives. The knot just below my stomach is getting bigger, harder.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I open my mouth to speak, then close it and swallow. My throat is dry. This is madness. But to run would be greater madness.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I clench my teeth as I push those crazy thoughts from my mind and struggle to accept what is happening to us.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Time for us to put on our combat gear, shoulder our weapons, and find our places in the company formation.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And that right there is from the opening of a book called Waiting for the Blessed Light of Dawn.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Gotten a copy of this book, and although she did not know Mr. Ted Hofzis directly, she, uh, Nina attends church with Mr. Hofzis' daughter, Mary Lou. And that's how I got this book. I looked on the internet, there's one other copy out there. So...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It was a nightmare. Like all wars and for the soldiers out there on the front lines.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Korea, which had been liberated from the Japanese, who had, you know, kinda occupied and held Korea as a colony for 35 years. Once World War II was over,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Korea had been liberated by the allies, but the allies at that time included America and also included the Soviet Union.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So it was split in half, Korea was split in half, divided at the 38th parallel. And the North of Korea, North Korea became a communist state, and the South, South Korea became a capitalist state.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And both North and South Korea claimed to be the legitimate government of all of Korea. And there were some...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You know, there's some hostilities and some clashes along the border, but no one expected the North to invade the South full-on, which they did on the 25th of June, 1950. After that happened, the United Nations denounced this aggression.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And in the first couple months of fighting, the UN forces, which again, was mostly Korean and American forces, they were pushed back, retreating, uh, into the Pusan perimeter, which is where they kinda ended up, and then,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Shortly thereafter in September, there was an amphibious landing, famous amphibious landing at Incheon and the fighting escalated. And that was the situation that


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Ted Hofzis found himself in August of 1950. So to get a little bit, a little bit of background on him and how he got there and go through this story, we're gonna go back to the book. So here's what he says.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I was just a skinny, four-eyed kid who was lucky enough to get out of Brooklyn and into the dairy country of the Catskill Mountains for four summers. When I found out there was something in this world besides concrete and cockroaches, I decided I want to live in the country.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I love the idea of spending my life as a farmer. I hated the city so much, I joined the army to get away, permanently.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The recruiter said I would be sent to heavy equipment school. Ha.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I was really dumb, but everything has turned out just right. I met Laura. That's who he's talking about in that opening that I read.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I met Laura and fell in love with her beauty, her Texas drawl, and her smile that makes me, makes my knees weak and softens my heart. She has a confident way of approaching almost every situation, not to mention she loves me.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] We had already begun to dream about buying a farm in Texas. There were only eight months left on my enlistment when we married.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] We planned to go back to Texas and eventually find a farm to build a home for us and the family we would have. We felt we were on our honeymoon.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] We felt we were still on our honeymoon until the lousy Korean Reds started this war. To add to our misery, President Truman added a year to my enlistment.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So, this war was completely unexpected, and I might be reading into that a little bit, but by all counts, when you talk, when I read history books about the Korean War, people had no idea that it was going to kick off like it did.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I would say it's probably similar to when Russia invaded Ukraine. Like, oh yeaah, oh yeaah, but it could happen, but no one actually thought it was gonna happen. I thought it was gonna happen, but most people didn't think it was gonna happen.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, an interesting thing about this book is it's a journal. It's, it's written in journal, so it's very cool to read. Uhm, and the journal picks up and starts in August. So again, uhm, they, the, the North Korea invaded in June, so this picks up in August. And what is, a couple months later, two months later, it picks up.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Fast forward a little bit. We're crowded into the USS General Pope, World War II transport. The crew tells us that we're, we are twice as many as the ship was built to carry. Three battalions and several smaller outfits are squeezed like sardines into the holds.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And then he goes on to detail what it's like when a bunch of army guys that aren't used to being at sea get out and there's eight foot swells and everyone's throwing up. It's pretty nasty.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And, and it says the ship's newspaper informs us that the North Koreans have boxed the South Korean army and US army units into the southeast corner of Korea. That's what I talked about earlier, the Pusan perimeter.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So now you go back to 1950, there is just completely limited information that you're going off of. I mean, you're just completely cut off. So they hear the ship's newspaper reports that they're surrounded. Fast forward a little bit.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The third platoon of King Company, so he's in King Company, usually gathers on the forward hatch. There are six of us who have been spending most of our time together on the ship. There's Vincent Ike Iacolono. Colano. George Malul. William Willie Garrity.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Four of us are from the Northeast. In fact, Ike, Malul, and I come from Brooklyn. Willie is from Jersey City.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] We four speak nearly the same language. Sorenson is from Blue Earth, Minnesota. Brown is from Arkansas. They're real nice guys and get along with everybody. I sometimes wonder how they can understand us, but they do. We have a good time hanging around together and kidding each other.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Nothing has been said, but I believe we'll make it a point to check on each other whenever we can. We have, after all, been spending most of our waking hours together. We slept near each other in the barrack and in the field for many months. So those are his friends. Those are his bros.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Climbing or rappelling down Colorado's red cliffs and maneuvering in mock battles. In spite of our young age, we feel we've learned our craft. At least as much as we can learn from lectures and exercises. Most important, we've learned discipline. And duty.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] In the Poussin Peninsula, that's where you're going. That's what's happening.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] We all know that no one is going to get through this by himself. All of our training has been about teamwork. Everybody needs to have someone looking out for him. We know that each of us will watch out for the other five. The unspoken pact will have a few problems.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] They're, they're in different squads, so there's gonna be a little distance between them. Muriel Brown is my assistant gunner on the bar. The B.A.R.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The Browning automatic rifle. We'll be watching out for each other all the time. So that's his, that's his bro right there.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I would tell you to get the book. It's gonna be hard to get this book. But, and,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Who knows, maybe they'll do a reprinting of it or I'll talk to the daughter or something. Maybe we can get some version of this out there.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But fast forward a little bit, they disembarked the ship. We carry our packs, weapons, field gear, and change of underwear, nothing else. I carry everything I need. Water, cigarettes, lighter, writing paper, and Laura's picture. Most of us have at least one meal left in our sea rations. We march off the wharf to the cadence count of First Sergeant Fisk, King Company's CO,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Barrel-chested Captain Ralph Kerfman marches several paces in front of the first rank of four platoon leaders. Sergeant Finner is in that spot for our platoon. We came to Korea without an officer for- for platoon leader.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The rest of the formation is ranks of 16 men, four from each platoon of King Company. We march facing straight ahead, trying to look grim and purposeful, all the while looking out of the corner of our eyes at this strange place and the people. We're here to help.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The Koreans watch us as we pass but make no move or sound to cheer us on. I have very little understanding of our situation.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And other places were meant to prepare us for this moment. As I march shoulder to shoulder with my fellow soldiers, I begin to feel stronger. I'm surrounded by men, however young and untested, who I know better than I know my own family. Our company CO is a man I trust completely. Maybe we'll be able to carry out this police action without too many of us getting hurt.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, they march for a little while and they get to a rail station and they jump onto passenger cars.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Fast forward a little bit. Soon after we unload all of our gear, including ammunition, we march along the track towards the Naktong River.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] There are no roads, no buildings, only hills that are terraced near the bottom and bare and rocky near the top. Foot trails are everywhere. As we form up to walk on either side of the track, ammunition cases are open and each man is given a bandolier. Five clips of eight rounds, 40 rounds total. Brown and I are given five additional bandoliers for the bar clips.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] This must be war. We weren't, we aren't told to keep a written record of ammo received nor are we told to carry the ammo cases with us to collect brass cartridges. It's just that lack of information and


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The transition of going from a training environment where there's no thought in your mind that you're going to war and you fast forward a month and you're in war. That's, that's, that's a radical mental transition you gotta make. And even he's picking it up like every time he signed out ammunition back in Colorado,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] For training, it was like, alright, sign this piece of paper with how much ammunition you have and then how much, how much of the brass you gotta get back. And here they're like, there's none of that, obviously.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now we'll fast forward a little bit. King Company is responsible for more than a mile of the front line. Even I know tactics better than that. So now all of a sudden getting put on the line and getting told, alright, you got a mile worth of line that you have to cover.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And they go out and they start doing some patrolling, not much contact.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He says, We thought we were becoming veterans as we patrolled the hills around the battery perimeter. We saw and fired at North Korean patrols, but couldn't tell if we hit anyone. They always disappeared as we tried to close with them. The best part of the day was the end of a long patrol. We usually had to wade the creek to enter the perimeter of the artillery battery. The cool water soaked our hot, tired feet.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So again, this is September and all he's talking about when he, you know, when you read the whole book, he's talking about how hot it is. He's drenched with sweat the whole time.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Only our officers know that King Company is about to make its first attack.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Fast forward. So there's a planning for them to do an assault. We are still amateurs, but we're well trained and trust our CO. Captain Kerfman has been our CO and father figure to most of us for more than 18 months. He's a Mustang.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He was an enlisted man in the Pacific in World War II. During the fighting, he received a field commission. Hell yea.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He was our CEO for the whole period we were at Camp Carson. I worked for him as male clerk for about six months and as company clerk for about a month when our regular clerk was on leave. I know I was the lousiest company clerk he had ever seen.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I was privileged to hear his reason for sending three King Company soldiers to be court marshalled. The three soldiers had been caught stealing gas from cars in the company parking lot. Captain Kerfman had the men in his office. I was in the outer office. He was telling them why they were being court marshalled.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He was, in effect, throwing the book at them because they had committed the most serious of crimes they had stolen from their own comrades. He would not stand for that.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He doesn't stand for any nonsense but isn't afraid to stand up to a superior officer if he knows the position he is taking is right. Boom. There you go.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That holds for a single GI in trouble, unfairly, or for the whole battalion. He approaches every situation with the long and short consequences in mind.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] We reach the ridgeline just as the company mortars begin to fire.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now, everybody up on the ridge, fire slow, fire steady, thinner yells over the hollow sound of the mortar shells hitting the bottom of their tubes.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The deadly blast of those same exploding shells landing on the hill across the valley makes us duck.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It's the first time I've heard the sounds of a mortar shell from the funk as it hits the bottom of the tube to the whisper as it passes overhead ending in a blast as it explodes on the hill where the North Koreans are dug in. It's hard to find individual targets through the smoke and even more difficult to hit them as my hands shake with fear and excitement.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] As they leave their holes to flee westward, we kill more of them. Cease fire, hold your fire, Lieutenant Brown yells. Lieutenant Brown is our new platoon leader. He came to us while we were in the artillery battery. His command is repeated along the line until everyone in third platoon has stopped firing.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The men of first and second platoon keep firing even after they charge over the crest of the hill. Some of the men stop to check foxholes and bodies lying around. Several of our men are down. GIs are waving at medics to get them to come to help their buddies. We can hear the shouts of our men and the crack of individual rifles fired at the retreating North Koreans.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] They're running across an open field heading for the safety of a large mountain six or seven hundred yards away. Ike gives me a wave. He hasn't been ordered to fire his bazooka. I used several clips of my bar.