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[Assistant] So the analysis gets better, but do the results get better?


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[Assistant] And I suppose with expectation comes pressure. Were there ever moments where pressure got too much and you made wrong decisions for reasons that perhaps you wouldn't have made in the early years just because there was too much going on?


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[Assistant] How different was the culture at Team Silverstone compared to McLaren, where you started your Formula One career?


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[Assistant] I know you weren't his strategist, but I'm sure you're aware of the conversations going on. Do you think Jensen had the complete picture as well in the way that Vettel did?


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[Assistant] The pressure that we've talked about at McLaren was perhaps born out of having two world champions, because he obviously had Button and Hamilton, I suppose, when you were first there and then Cecho comes in for a year, I suppose, that's when you first exposed to him.


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[Assistant] Look, how did you end up at McLaren, Bernie? Because it's a great story. I mean, Formula Student.


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[Assistant] That proves how seriously McLaren were taking Formula Student. If, you know, Paddy Lowe and Jonathan Neil were two of the most senior people in the team.


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[Assistant] It's the story of Enzo Ferrari fighting to save his empire and his marriage, all while trying to win the legendary Mille Miglia, the treacherous 1000 mile road race across Italy. It's directed by Michael Mann and the cast is absolutely stellar.


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[Assistant] Adam Driver plays Enzo Ferrari, Penelope Cruz is his wife Laura, and Patrick Dempsey is the driver, Piero Taruffi.


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[Assistant] The other stars of this movie are the cars. So many beautiful Ferraris from the 1950s. And the engine sounds so good on big cinema speakers. It's like you're sitting at the side of the track. If you've ever looked at the Ferraris during a race and wondered about the man who created the company,


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[Assistant] This is a must watch. Ferrari fires on all cylinders. It opens exclusively in theatres this Christmas. And you can get your tickets now.


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[Assistant] Just in the strategy departments, I mean, there was you, there was, there's Ruth Buscombe, who is head of strategy at Alfa Romeo, Rosie Waite at Mercedes, Hannah Schmitz is one of two leading the Red Bull charge.


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[Assistant] To get more women, more women studying the STEM subjects.


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[Assistant] You were very driven though, because I'm filling in the gaps here, but you go to McLaren thanks to Formula Student. You are a designer, but you want to go track science.


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[Assistant] Took it upon yourself to get experience in other formulas, is that right?


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[Assistant] What a brilliant chat. Thank you Bernie. And were she to return to the pit wall in future, never say never remember, she'd be a huge asset to any team. Clearly she's an expert in strategy and engineering.


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[Assistant] But she's also a great team player, that's something all of the guys at Aston tell me. But personally, I hope Bernie stays on this side of the fence with F1 and Sky. I think she brings a huge amount of insight and understanding to the fans that wasn't previously there. And given that you're listening to her on this show,


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[Assistant] Look out for her contributions on the F1 Explains podcast as well.


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[Assistant] I loved what Bernie had to say about some of the drivers she's worked with.


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[Assistant] Checko, a great tyre manager. Sebastian, the best strategic brain of any driver she's worked with. And I really giggled at the thought of her as a performance engineer at McLaren, leaving Jensen bits of advice on post-it notes. Bernie, it was great to catch up. Many thanks for your time and I'll see you again at a race soon.


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[Assistant] So what did you make of the conversation with Bernie? Do you want to see her back on the pit wall or staying as a pundit? Let me know through all the usual means. I'm at Tom Clarkson F1 on X or you can use the hashtag F1 beyond the grid.


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[Assistant] Which, as ever, brings me onto what you sent in about Franz Tost after last week's show. Franz, who retired as a Formula One team principal in Abu Dhabi last weekend.


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[Assistant] There's a lot of love for friends out there, and rightly so. And here are some of your messages.


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[Assistant] Let's start with this from Zane Marry. France will be missed by all. Not as memorable as Ron Dennis from McLaren or Jean Todd from Ferrari or even Christian Horner from the high tier Red Bull racing team.


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[Assistant] But he was his own character and built his team his way. And that's what set him apart from the rest. Well, thanks for the note, Zane. And yes, Franz was definitely his own man and he deserves our respect. And what about this from Anthony Hull?


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[Assistant] Great interview, straight answer tossed. He never leaves you in doubt about what he wants. His answers are concise and from our little exposure, hugely correct. It'll be interesting to see who he recommends to replace him because most likely his choice is correct yet again. Well thanks for getting in touch, Anthony.


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[Assistant] Please remember to get in touch with your thoughts and stories about Bernie Collins in time for next week's show.


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[Assistant] And on that subject, we have just one more episode of F1 Beyond the Grid left in 2023. How time flies. We're certainly going to finish on a high, so I'll see you again next week and thanks for listening as ever. F1 Beyond the Grid is produced by Formula One and AudioBoom Studios. Until next time, keep it flat out.


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[Assistant] Welcome once again to Beyond the Grid with me, Tom Clarkson.


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[Assistant] My guest this week is someone I've admired for a long time, but someone we haven't heard from in a little while. He's a technical genius, and during his 30-year Formula One career, he worked on some truly groundbreaking innovations, as well as with some of the best drivers of the modern era. The man I'm talking about is, of course, Paddy Lowe.


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[Assistant] And what about Lewis Hamilton? When you've been doing this as long as he has, and he's a driver you've worked with for so long, including that 2007 season you just mentioned, but does a guy like him almost need this challenge just to keep him at the top of his game?


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[Assistant] If there's one area, Paddy, if there's one area where Hamilton is better now,


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[Assistant] Do you think Rosberg is underrated as a driver? I mean, you've already said that Lewis had a lot of reliability or issues that year, but how good was Rosberg


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[Assistant] Were there any reliability issues cutting cylinders? Were the guys at Renault having headaches, sleepless nights about it?


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[Assistant] Uh, heard from him. Can you relate to that? Can you understand what Alain is saying?


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[Assistant] Yeah, what a great story. Before we move on from the Active Sister, there is one other story I wanted to ask you about, and it involves William's test driver before Damon, Mark Blundell, Pembrey, Paddy, I've got a leak.


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[Assistant] And how much of that permeated down from Ron Dennis? Even over the technical aspects of the team, how hands on was he? Did he get involved? Did you have to seek his permission to try new things? No, no, not at all. No, Ron, uh, Ron


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[Assistant] After 20 years at McLaren, you decide to leave. Was that a difficult decision to go to Mercedes?


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[Assistant] Do you get to a point where you become paranoid about the run ending as you went into 15, as you went into 2016? How nervous would you get about where the other teams would be at relative to you?


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[Assistant] I'm sure I wasn't the only one thinking it was going to be a fairy tale return to Williams. It didn't work out. When you reflect on those couple of years with Williams as, what were you, Chief Technical Officer, what do you think now? Why didn't it work out?


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[Assistant] Which brings me on to what you sent in about Just Capito after last week's show. Every message we received about Just was hugely positive. You all seem to think he is the man to lead Williams out of their current woes.


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[Assistant] That was the first time that I had actually been to what was called COTA. There was nothing there. Just dirt and tractors and bulldozers.


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[Assistant] I mean, Emerson Fittipoli sort of gave me the playbook.


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[Assistant] That first year, my parents paid for it.


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[Assistant] But, you know, to move on to Formula 3 was going to take way more money. My, my sisters and brothers.


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[Assistant] Right? They, they had to get a piece of the action too. They all had to go to college, so I had to come home. And I didn't want to come.


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[Assistant] No, no, I would have, if I could have stayed, I would have stayed.


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[Assistant] I didn't have that, that close a relationship with him at that time. I mean, he, uh, he's never told me no. Never.


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[Assistant] And, uh, when it was time to, uh, be at Estrill, uh, Herbie Blash called and said, uh, get on a plane. We're, we're running you.


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[Assistant] He says, uh, it just, the Williams is six cylinder, is easy, power band, and no problem.


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[Assistant] You know, in the beginning, you're like, okay, what am I doing and what do I need to do to learn this thing fast? In Formula One, you don't get a lot of time. Your audition is real short.


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[Assistant] I wasn't, uh, the, the top five guys, but I was definitely in the mid pack. And, uh, I was happy with that because all those other guys have been running, right?


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[Assistant] And Herbie Blash told me, he said, we, we set a time for you.


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[Assistant] Well, you exceeded the time by over a second. So they were happy with that. I would have liked to have done even more, but you know, we were fighting weather more than anything.


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[Assistant] Bernie was starting to phase himself out of Formula One. Uh, six months later, I think DeAngelis was killed in the Brabham testing at Paul Ricard. And then, uh, not much longer after, I think Bernie, you know,


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[Assistant] Yeah, in IMSA and then, and then there to, uh, IndyCar.


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[Assistant] Shell oil would have called Bernie and said, we want Willy T in that car. Bernie would have put.


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[Assistant] And that's how most of the drivers, if you look at all the pedigree in Formula One,


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[Assistant] Well, you know, how has America compared racism? Focused on racism. How has America compared to England? I said there is no comparison. Zero. The treatment I received over there was, uh, fabulous.


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[Assistant] Oh yeah, oh yeah. Well, but when I showed up at Brands Hatch, for example, I got the title Willie T from Anthony Marsh.


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[Assistant] And on my entry was William T. Ribbs. And he says, well, we have young William. I'll just call him Willie T. Anthony Marsh created Willie T. Ribbs.


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[Assistant] The three of us, Ro, myself, and Mansell, we were 50% sideways, everywhere.


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[Assistant] Oh sure, without, without question, without a doubt, anybody that says it's not is lying. That's what it is, that's what it, you know, the sport reflects that.


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[Assistant] Right? Formula one is out in front. They're trying to diversify the sport where new millennials, kids today, they are going to be the bread and butter for auto racing. And if kids today are turned off,


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[Assistant] By the lack of diversity or the lack of opportunity and they know, they know, they see it, then the sport is not going to succeed.


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[Assistant] But I didn't quit. I kept going and I kept pushing and it was always so good. Okay.


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[Assistant] There's going to be the bad and they're all out there. They're out there today. Those people who are hating on Lewis Hamilton for the position he's taken. Okay. But then there's the good and the good always pushed the bad out of the way. And I had that, I had that with Jim Truman. I had that with Paul Newman. I had that with Dan Gurney. They knew, they hear, they hear what's going on. They blow it off and they push me around those obstacles.


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[Assistant] Okay, about going to the race was going to be my first stock car race. There was some drivers I wanted to meet. One of them was named David Pearson. It's called the Silver Fox. And when I was brought to meet him, he didn't even want to look at me.


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[Assistant] And ask the question that none of you dumbasses have ever asked. And I did. Can you pass on the grass? And there was a reason why I asked that question. But, uh, if you want to provoke me, I'll, uh, I'll swing. You throw the pitch, I'll swing. I'm not going to turn another cheek. Never have and never will.


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[Assistant] Well, the promoter, the promoter realized that this could be a real problem. That was just the tip of the iceberg.


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[Assistant] That one, I wasn't gonna turn another cheek and I wasn't gonna be their house, act like their house boy. Okay? When I first got down there, I went to the restaurant at the hotel I was staying at and all the waiters in there were African American and the cooks were African American and I walked into the restaurant. They looked at me and they just sort of stared.


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[Assistant] Or race. How you treat me is how I'm going to treat you.


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[Assistant] Oh yeah, I was, I, uh, the very first race I, I out-qualified him in the very first race.


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[Assistant] Not personal as much as it is business. So I understood his position.


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[Assistant] Yeah, and so for the first 10 minutes he didn't say anything. And then he, he said, uh, he looked over his shoulder and he says,


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[Assistant] Alligator skit on how tough you gotta be in Determined.


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[Assistant] And so I started training in the boxing gym. As a matter of fact, a lot of people, and this wasn't in the documentary, I had only enough money to race, okay, from the family. And, you know, I had to make a little money just to eat. So I used to,


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[Assistant] Could I have a minute, a minute of your time? I said, yeah, go ahead. He says, uh, Don King would like to meet you.


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[Assistant] Went over to meet Don King, went up to his office before the fight.


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[Assistant] There was only a few people that delivered on their promises in my racing career. One was Paul Newman and of course, Jim Truman, uh, Bill Cosby, Don King, uh, and Bernie Ecclestone.


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[Assistant] Fernando Alonso. Ask Alonso how tough Indy is. Ask Nelson Piquet. Indy is a very tough.


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[Assistant] Uh, manufacturers, engine manufacturers, they did not participate to move my career along.


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[Assistant] The next Lewis Hamilton, Formula One has got drivers from all over the world, from different countries. Formula One looks progressive.


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[Assistant] Not every year. It was mainly, uh, most times Bernie's guess. Uncle Bernie, I love him. There was a statement he made recently about racism. I'm going to talk with him and let him realize the difference that racism creates hate-ism. Okay. And I think he was confused about that, you know?


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[Assistant] Saying that, you know, some blacks are more racist than whites. No, Uncle Bernie. Blacks will become haters, not racists. Racism creates hatism.


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[Assistant] When he, uh, when I asked him to be in the film, uppity, no questions. When do you want to do it? That's my Uncle Bernie. Love him.


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[Assistant] And, uh, and I always, and I always give them my presence and I always give them my respect. And I totally admire what's going on with the kids today and what these young men are trying to do. They're worldwide superstars. They got a worldwide platform.


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[Assistant] It was opportunistic and outrageously daring and a great taste of what's to come from the young Japanese driver. Yet I felt I'd seen it all before, because Yuki's heroics reminded me of the last Japanese driver to race in Formula One.


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[Assistant] Kamui Kobayashi. He was equally daring and skillful, if a tiny bit taller, and I'm delighted to say that Kamui is my guest this week. Welcome to Beyond the Grid with me, Tom Clarkson.


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[Assistant] Anyone who was at Suzuka in 2012, as I was, will never forget his day of days. He finished third for Sauber in front of his beloved fans, who chanted his name from the grandstands,


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[Assistant] In all, he contested 75 Formula One races, with that 2012 season being his most competitive. During his career, he carved out a reputation as a tyre whisperer, a skill his Sauber teammate Sergio Perez learnt from him and continues to exploit to this day in a Red Bull.


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[Assistant] Kamui, great to see you. Look, where in the world are you at the minute? You're the most international racing driver I know. Uh, where are you at the minute?


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[Assistant] It felt very strange not being at Suzuka last year.


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[Assistant] It's definitely old school. I'll agree with you there. Do you think it's the best track in the world?


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[Assistant] While we're talking Suzuka, can we talk about your day of days? Suzuka 2012.


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[Assistant] Definitely. And you qualified fourth for that race. What did you think was possible going into the race?


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[Assistant] Did you feel a lot of pressure that weekend from the fans, from the media? Because as you say, it was a fast track, you had a good car, there was a chance coming in, wasn't there, that you were going to get a good result. What was it like coming in?


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[Assistant] And did you get any crazy gifts from the fans? Cause the Japanese fans are unlike anywhere else in the world, aren't they?


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[Assistant] And how did you get from the Suzuka circuit hotel to the paddock? I remember reading that Ayrton Senna, at the height of his fame, used to have to get a helicopter from the hotel to the track because he just couldn't physically get on the ground from one to the other because the fans stopped him.


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[Assistant] Don't go anywhere because there's plenty more to come from Kamui in just a moment. But first, here's a message for you at home. We know our listeners are scattered all over the globe, but at the moment your travel plans may be on hold as we wait for the world to open up again.


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[Assistant] Babbel is available as an app or online and what's clever is it teaches you through interactive dialogue. That's real conversations that you might actually encounter out and about and not just meaningless phrases. With 14 different languages to choose from including French, Spanish and German, you could be fluent before your next holiday comes around the corner.


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[Assistant] And they've recently launched their own learning podcast as well, which means you can brush up on your skills while on the go.


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[Assistant] So, right now Babbel is offering our listeners 6 months free with a purchase of a 6 month subscription with the promo code GRID. Go to babbel.co.uk forward slash play


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[Assistant] And use the promo code GRID on your six month subscription. That's Babbel. B-A-B-B-E-L dot co dot UK forward slash play promo code GRID.


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[Assistant] For two of your three years at Sauber, you were teammates with Checo Perez. Are you still friends with him?


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[Assistant] And he said very, uh, recently that one of the reasons he is so good with his tyre preservation is because of you. He learnt how to conserve his tyres through you. So where did you learn to do it?


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[Assistant] How do you know, Kamui, when to push and when to save?


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[Assistant] So you might not be the fastest through the fast corners because you're saving your tyres when that's where they're using the most energy, I suppose.


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[Assistant] Did you have to change your approach to tyre conservation with Pirelli, the sort of heat sensitive Pirelli rubber versus the Bridgestone before?


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[Assistant] And in terms of traction, you've almost got a bit of traction control in your right foot. You've got a very sensitive right foot.


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[Assistant] On the subject of Cecho, how do you think he'll get on at Red Bull this year? How do you think he'll stack up against Max Verstappen?


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[Assistant] Now look, when we talk about 2012, we've discussed Suzuka, you finish on the podium.


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[Assistant] Did you know already at that point that Sauber were not going to keep you for 2013?


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[Assistant] You'd had a very good season. How frustrated were you not to stay with the team?


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[Assistant] You say there's no motorsport history in your family. So why did a, why did a nine year old Kamui Kobayashi want to get in a go kart for the first time? Where did that come from?


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[Assistant] And did your dad take you to Suzuka? Because you were born near Osaka, so not too far from Suzuka.


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[Assistant] Whereabouts did you do that first test, examination, call it what you will, for Toyota? Was that


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[Assistant] Can you describe then where you would be now without Toyota? Would you have had a racing career without their input?


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[Assistant] Toyota very much took you under their wing and did they sort of, was it their decision to take you to Europe or was that your decision?


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[Assistant] And you did Formula 3, and in fact you were Vettel's, Sebastian Vettel's teammate in 2006.


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[Assistant] Very, very strong championship, you're right. And Vettel in particular, you obviously saw him at close quarters. What stood out about him in 2006?


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[Assistant] And then if we fast forward to 2009, you've been a Toyota driver since you were 14.


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[Assistant] And then at Suzuka, uh, funnily enough, uh, Timo Glock has a very unfortunate accident.


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[Assistant] But how supportive were the team and, and how quickly do you feel you got up to speed? Cause also I remember Jensen Button getting pretty vocal after the race. Cause of course he was fighting for the championship and you kept him behind you for a few laps.


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[Assistant] Did you talk to Jensen after the race, or was it all through the media? No, all through the media, to be honest.


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[Assistant] We then go to Abu Dhabi, the last race of the year, and you finish ahead of your teammate Yono Trulli.


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[Assistant] Really, those two races couldn't have gone much better for you.


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[Assistant] And did you have any idea as you crossed the line in Abu Dhabi that Toyota were about to pull out a Formula One?


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[Assistant] It's mad isn't it because they had finally, they had their driver in Formula One with them. The performance was picking up. I remember Pedro de la Rosa telling me that he used the


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[Assistant] Is there still a sense of frustration within Toyota in Cologne that Formula One didn't work out?


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[Assistant] Do you think they could be tempted back to Formula One now that there's a cost cap and the costs are under control?


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[Assistant] And then when Toyota pulled out of Formula One and you went to Sauber, did you still retain links with them or were you 100% a Sauber driver with, with nothing, no, no link to Toyota?


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[Assistant] How much of a loss for Formula One in Japan is Honda pulling out at the end of this coming year, do you think?


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[Assistant] Can we talk about a young guy coming in? Yuki Sanoda.


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[Assistant] What do you know of this guy? What can we expect of him in Formula One this year?


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[Assistant] What's the single best piece of advice you could give him coming into Formula One?


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[Assistant] The potholes of the Formula One paddock. What do you mean just in terms of looking ahead at future contracts?


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[Assistant] And having to, to deal with Helmut Marko as well. Yeah, exactly.


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[Assistant] So at the end of 2012, Sauber go a different way. They replace both you and Perez with Hulkenberg and Gutierrez and you spend a year on the sidelines. You do a bit of work for Ferrari. Now, is it true that you turned down


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[Assistant] An expanded role with Ferrari in 2014 in favour of racing for Caterham? Yep. Explain the thinking behind that.


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[Assistant] Must've been a very frustrating year and then let's throw it forward. You since then have carved out a wonderful career with Toyota in the world endurance championship. You're racing in Formula Nippon as well, back home in Japan.


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[Assistant] How tough do you find sharing a car in, in WEC with teammates?


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[Assistant] How frustrated, how angry do you get when a teammate damages the car?


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[Assistant] Are they mates, or are they just, are they still rivals in some way?


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[Assistant] Now, Kamui, what have you got to do to win Le Mans?


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[Assistant] Now I know Alonso, Fernando Alonso wasn't in your car when he was doing his two seasons with Toyota, but how much did you enjoy having him in the team? Did anything surprise you about Fernando?


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[Assistant] I hope you reminded him of Valencia 2010, Brazil 2012, when you overtook him in Formula 1. Yea, I remember.


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[Assistant] Get out of the way! Of course you had the Ferrari engine, didn't you? Yes.


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[Assistant] Well, Kamui, it's been lovely to talk to you. You're 34. Do you ever dream of coming back to Formula One, or do you think that chapter is finished now?


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[Assistant] Oh, fantastic. Well, Kamui, good luck at Lemoore this year. Good luck with everything you're doing this year, actually. And thanks again for your time.


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[Assistant] There weren't so many about last week's guest, Andreas Seidel, but I suppose that says a lot about the man who is all about getting on with the job.


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[Assistant] You did have some lovely observations though, and here's a few. Philip Shipev got in touch to say this.


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[Assistant] Gold. And it was proof, Dan, that if you're tenacious enough, you really can get where you want to go.


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[Assistant] I've absolutely loved reading those and all of the other messages you sent in and I really hope you've enjoyed today's episode and please keep sending your feedback in because we love it. Now I'll be back next week with another great personality or perhaps I should say personalities from the world of Formula One. So see you then.


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[Assistant] Beyond the Grid is produced by F1 in association with Audio Boon. Until next time, keep it flat out.


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[Assistant] Turmoil, really. Kinda from shareholder on down. It was, you know, obviously well documented that Ron Dennis, who I think is a


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[Assistant] A legend in the, in the sport, uh, always has been, always will be, uhm, had fallen out with the shareholders. So I think when you have, uhm, boardroom drama going on, that then trickles down throughout the entire organization. And so what I found when I joined was a lack of leadership and direction because


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It was kind of a lot of, uh, infighting and people not paying attention to the Formula One team. They were, I'll buy you out, you buy me out, uh, stuff going on. Then we obviously had the Honda engine, which, uh, proved in the back of our car, uh, to not be very competitive. So we had to deal with that.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Then of course we moved to Renault and we thought that would solve, uh, the world's problems and, uh, as we know it didn't. We, uh, certainly were a big contributor.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The leadership brought in Andreas Seidel, brought in James Key, so ultimately brought some clarity to the organization, changed the marketing department, changed my leadership team, uh, all but Laura, our, our FD.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And then worked about just kind of creating a team atmosphere. And so it's been a quick four years in some sense.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It's been a long four years in another, but I think we're in a groove now. I feel like we have the right people in the right place, the resources we need.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That's a good question. Uhm, I'm enjoying going to the racetrack. You know, I never felt the, a lot of people said, you know, do you feel pressure? And in Formula One, you know, if you don't get a result right away, the pressure's on. But I always had immense support from the shareholders and.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] They've been around the sport long enough to know that you don't turn things around.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So I always felt comfortable I had the support and the runway to show that I could lead getting the team going back in the right direction. But.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] There's nothing fun about going to a racetrack when you know you're going to be out in Q1 or a strong result is maybe you'll get a point, uh, cause I'm a racer. I want to win. I at least want to be competitive. And those early days were.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] We're just brutal. But, I like a good challenge, so it didn't get me down, it was just...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Frustrating and let's turn the corner. I would say these last couple years have been, uh, really enjoyable. You know, some podiums now. You know, we're competitive. We're, we're disappointed if we're not in Q3 all the time, which we have been the majority of the season. We've missed out on a couple times.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And so it's very enjoyable and everything's, there's a lot of harmony in the racing team. So uhm, I would say I'm happy and I feel like we have momentum and we just need to keep that momentum.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It was a bit of a step into the unknown. I mean, I've been around racing my entire life, but I'm not a...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Engineer, I'm a racer slash marketer, so that's the side of the business, if you'd like, that I'm very comfortable with.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I think there's a real racer instinct once having driven just kinda knowing what a good race team.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So you gotta learn to trust the people, hire the right people. I'm not one who's gonna go in and pretend I know something I don't or pretend I can contribute in an area if I, quite frankly, don't know what the engineers are talking about.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That being said, I now understand it all, which is fun and actually now I enjoy the technical side more because I understand it. I can't repeat it and I can't contribute, but at least, you know, when we're sitting down around the table and they're using some of these fancy words.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I understand what they're saying. So that's enjoyable because that's a learning experience for me.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Were you a McLaren fan before you joined the team? My entire life. McLaren was always my team. You know, there were three big teams.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] When I grew up, I was, uhm, kind of late 80s, 90s. It was my fandom area, uh, era, if you'd like. I was a huge Senna fan. You know, the MP44, 1988, that was kind of my first year of really following.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Formula one, I remember Senna in Detroit, uh, and Monaco in, in the Lotus. So that was kind of started to become a fan then.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Best at everything. So you're either a McLaren fan, a Ferrari fan, or a Williams fan. And I liked all three teams, but McLaren was my, uh, was my number one.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I'm definitely an employee. Uhm, you know, the United Autosports, which is the sports car team that I own, I do that for.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, fun. It's a, it's a serious business. My partner Richard Dean runs it, but that's almost my, uh, vacation time. So I, um, I try and help as much as possible, but it's more about, uh, a free weekend. I like to be at the, uh, at the race track.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You know, I don't have anyone to report to at, uh, United Autosports at McLaren. I've got a board and shareholders and you know, at the end of the day.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I feel responsible to all the other race team members. You know, I kind of feel like I'm the quarterback of the team, but I feel that I work for them as much as they work for me. So it's, it's a totally different thing. The responsibility, the pressure, I can relax at United Autosports and, uh, McLaren's pretty, pretty intense every day.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Will you ever become a shareholder at McLaren? Do you need skin in the game? Uhm, I don't need skin in the game because I feel like I have.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It's my passion, it's my love, it's my reputation. Would I love to be a shareholder one of these days at McLaren? That would be awesome. I can definitely see myself being at McLaren for decades. You know, I did my old company, JMI, for 23 years.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I'm four years into this. It kind of feels like yesterday. I'm 48 years old, I think. And, uh, I'm one of those that, you know, like Bernie and like Ron and like Frank who are going to kind of work till they're 70, 80 years old. And that means, you know, I could do this for another 20 plus years and there's no team I enjoy.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] More than McLaren. And I love that we're in Formula One. We're in IndyCar. I'd love to see us get back to sports cars. So, you know, my dream.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Would be Formula One World Championship, Indy 500, Indy Car Championship, Le Mans, and you can, we can do all those things at McLaren, but that would probably take 20 years. So uhm, I've got big aspirations. Have a driver win the Triple Crown.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeaah, I think uhm, you gotta hire the best people possible. You know, these are big organizations.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So you gotta get the best talent possible. I've always, I have an advisory board, which are about a dozen who's who, uh, CEOs and CMOs, uh, from around the world. And I've always believed in having smarter people around you, having a lot of smart people around you, a lot of experienced people around you. And then.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Put your view in and, and medal if necessary, but try not to medal for meddling sake. I'm not a micromanager in, in that sense. And so, uhm, you know, I take a step back. I let, you know, Andreas run the Formula One team on the pit wall. You know, most of the time people think I'm watching the race. I'm watching the latest issue of Scooby-Doo.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, you know, I mean, it's, you know, we've got a few things he'll talk to me about on pit wall, big executive decisions. But for the most part, you know, I'm just sitting there observing and he's doing a great job. So if I interfere, I'm more likely to mess it up.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] In the good old days at JMI when that's all I did and it was well north of a billion dollars and it's only, uh, increased since then. So I'm going to guess a couple billion. That's a lot of dough. Yeah. Yeah. I wish I had 10% of all of it.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, so we're not, you know, to address the title sponsorship. We're not really looking for a title partner and the business model that we've built out doesn't require a title partner. And what I mean by that is of course I want to have a dominant brand on the race car is what you and I would know as a


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] As a title looking sponsor, but you know, the name of the team is McLaren. As soon as you have a title, it's another name.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] We're on our way and, and I think the way the world has changed in sponsorship, it's hard. Uh, it's always been hard because people have different sorts of choices and advertising, but now everything's going digital and social. So I think, you know,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Doing the deal hasn't really changed much in 20 years, but what you're selling and offering has changed and it's gone to a much more content driven sell, if you'd like, and digital and social media, the days of I just want major eyeballs on television.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And it feels good and looks good and I feel like it's big for our brand. Now it's much, much more sophisticated. And complex. Very complex. But I think that plays to our strength. I mean, our marketing department is 80 people strong. Have you increased the size of the marketing department?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I've definitely changed it. Uh, I think it's slightly increased from where it was. McLaren always had a very large marketing organization. They were always, you know,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Great with their, their brand and servicing partners, but I tried to change things to adapt to kind of what we just spoke about, you know, a bit more from the big branding, big brand status to


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You know, I've got a much bigger social media team than four years ago. Um, digital offering. So I've changed the mix more than the size of the organization. And then Mark Waller who runs it.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, he came from the NFL and Diageo, so I've, you know, we've got plenty of petrolheads within the organization, but in the marketing department, you want a mix of petrolheads, but world-class marketers, and uhm, very, very happy with our team.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Has Covid slowed things up? Covid has slowed things up, but it's also created, uh, opportunities. We're now doing, uh, a show called Slipstream, which is effectively a pre-game and post-game, uh, show from The Garage and from the MTC, which is a kind of a virtual hospitality.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Experience for our partners, for our fans, for our staff. I think we're just as busy as ever. Probably even busier because we have, you know, some fewer people.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, and we're having to work really hard because we're having to do things that we've not done before to make sure we maintain the value for our sponsor partners.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, you know, kind of racing in it. I remember I took the decision I didn't want to have racing in it because I wanted people to be intrigued.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] When I called to what is it? And you know, a lot of people don't want to buy motorsports. And so if you have in the title, you know, Zach Brown's calling you from ABC Motorsport Company, you won't get through because they know what it's about. So it wasn't a very sophisticated decision-making process. It probably involved a pint of Guinness.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, in Sheffield, but uhm, it started off as Just Marketing and then I went Just Marketing International and then, uh, changed it to, uh, JMI. So it, uh, changed a little bit over the years.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Focus on motorsport because, I mean, you're a baseball fan, you're an ice hockey fan.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, it's what I knew and how it got started was back when I was racing in Formula 3 in England. I was able to nick a sponsor from Jackie Stewart and I had TWA Airlines and got a reputation for someone who


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You know, could do sponsorship because I didn't, uh, come from a place where my family could pay for my motor racing.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And uhm, I would work at racing schools and would just do anything I could to kind of do a deal to.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And I went, yeah, I could do that. And I did that and then realized, actually, I can make more money making a living doing that. I still had my desire to, to race, but.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I thought as a race car driver, you get a nice Rolodex built up quickly and I started saying, well, I do know all these different people. It's kind of the wild, wild west. What if I go back to my contacts that


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Nigel Mansell's team or Jeff Gordon in America or an IndyCar team. And so that's, that's how it got started. So it wasn't really a, there was no plan. There was no method to the madness. It was just a, a deal by deal. And then it grew into a business.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And how that came about is a gentleman named Ian Carter. I had done the DeWalt Porsche Super Cup sponsorship and, uh, Ian Carter was the president of DeWalt tools at the time. And then he went to become president of Hilton, uh, international. And so we did a deal there quickly followed by, uh, Johnny Walker.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And then I've done deals with the majority of the, you know, first half of the teams, the UPS that you see on the Ferrari. We did, I did, uhm.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Ferrari. They're all different and I think it's good because it wasn't that long ago, so I have a really good sense of...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] How everyone operates, their strengths and their weaknesses and of course I'm able to, uhm, sell into those situations. Uhm, Ferrari was exciting, uh, cause it was Ferrari and I'd never done a deal with them and it was a big deal.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] No, surprisingly not, you know, that was the thing that you kinda...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I think through, uh, McLaren always had probably the strongest rate card. I assumed Ferrari would be, but to my surprise, they weren't in fact on the UPS deal. The number was, uh, it's a good number, but lower than I would have thought the side pod would have been.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And, uh, John Hogan, uh, Hoagie, who's, uh, helped bring me into Formula One.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He said, well, just give it a go. And I put out an offer that I thought, mmmm, this is, and they accepted it. Red Bull is inexpensive, uhm, inexpensive, uh, though some of our smaller deals were, were done there. Williams did the Lenovo, the Martini, the, the Unilever. They were kind of.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] About right, uh, and Ron was tough to negotiate with, uhm, he did a lot of negotiating with Ron in, uh, Ron and Ekram.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I would not have done it any differently because I think it bites.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And what do I mean by that? You know, once I've come into Formula One and seen all the characters, you can push really hard. My own point of view is sometimes people push too hard and you need to play the long game.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I think there would have been opportunity for me to grow the bottom line even further at JMI, but it maybe would have bruised.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Some of the agencies that we've worked with have been awesome and then others have been amateur hour.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, we tend to do the majority of our, uh, partnerships, you know, in-house. Of course, if someone's representing someone and it's real and credible, then of course we'll work with them. But, uh, I'm not dependent upon, uh, agencies. We kind of have our own in-house agency and I'm happy with that approach.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, so my first ever race was Long Beach Grand Prix in 1981. I still have the race program. Williams won that day. I remember like it was yesterday. I remember meeting Eddie Cheever. I was 10 years old. Uh, I didn't have a...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, and I remember the Williams cars like it was yesterday, the fly Saudi livery. And then we would go to Riverside for the sports car and the NASCAR races. So the IMSA came a little jeep, uh, uh, GT.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And the Warner Hodged in 400 and then we'd go to drag races in Pomona. So that's what we.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Went to me, my dad and my brother. And it would just be a kind of a Sunday of the races in town type of thing. So we didn't know what was kind of going on. We didn't follow it, but it was, you know, I loved, loved cars. So that was kind of 81 to probably 85.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Then when I went to high school, it was with a buddy named Nick Aarons who was related to Mickey Thompson, the famous, uh, off-road racer who was murdered and then turned out to be by his partner. Then he got busted 20 years later.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And, uh, they took me to the Long Beach Grand Prix and at this point I was starting to look at karting and we, it was the 87 Long Beach Grand Prix, Mario, uh, put it on pole and destroyed everyone. I asked Mario, we did dinner with Mario, it was a big group and I was very intimidated, uhm, cause Nick's family knew him.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] How did you end up on Wheel of Fortune? So we, uhm, they came around to school, it was teen week, so they would do once a year teens, and uhm, my buddy at the time, I'm Monty Smith, I remember like it was yesterday, said let's go try out to be on the show. They would go around to the different schools.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And uhm, it's like, uh, Hangman is the game, you know, you kind of give me a letter A, B, etc.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And, um, went through quite a few rounds, uh, it's quite a big process. And then they ultimately call you after you go through about three or four rounds, if you're going to get on. And I got on and I won the first two rounds and got a bunch of Cartier watches.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And uhm, Apple computer. And uhm, so then when I saw the, the ad, I went and sold all that stuff and paid for myself to go to the kart racing school and to get a, get a kart. And that's what got me into, uh, got me into racing.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And how successful were you in karting? In karting I was good. Maybe as good as I was ever going to get. But in karting I won a lot.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I wanted to race Formula One, you know, I thought that was where, uhm. Skip Barber Racing School? I did Skip Barber Racing School at Bridgehampton, which is now Condominiums, I believe. And, uh, I raced in karts against Richie Hearn, we went on to do Indy cars.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Kevin Harvick, who's still racing, uh, NASCAR. So that was kinda my karting, uh, era. And then in Formula 3, I was against, uh, Dario Franchitti and...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The fastest guys I ever raced against, and at the time they were unbelievable. Montoya destroyed all of us. Kenny Breck, that was in Barbersaw, but I remember when Montoya won in Miami, everyone said he was the next Senna, and no one knew who he was, but he was...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Awesome. Yosfer Stoppin was extremely, uh, quick. I raced against him in, uh, Opel Lotus. I remember Dario coming into my motorhome. He was buddies with my, uh, teammate, uh, guy named, uh, Johnny, uh, Mollem.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And Magnuson had broken Senna's record that year and Dario won I think the first race of the year and then Magnuson won the next 13. So this is the 1994 British Formula 3 championship. And I remember Dario coming in going, you know, I can't.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He's gone on to have a pretty damn good career and then used to, uh, work out. Uh, I remember when David Kultard, there was this kind of racing club and I didn't know David, he was kind of a, the superstar in Formula 3000.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But I remember when his deal, he thought, had fallen apart with, uh, Jackie Stewart in Formula 3000. He thought his career was over. So it was, uh,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, and then when I moved out, the population was, was halved. Cause it had like one high street.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Richard said, well, I'm gonna come sleep on my sister's living room floor, which I did in, in Sheffield on a air mattress. And then he just took me under his wings. Uh, he was racing Forma 3000 at the time and, uh, it got me the gig to go work at Jim Russell racing school and.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, there were some great times, uh, we, we had, I absolutely loved it and that's why I came back and I've been here for eight years now and I consider England very much home.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] No, no, no, I heard that through my whole driving career. And at the time, it uhm, it pissed you off a lot. Cause I want, you know, doing the deals was all about just giving myself the opportunity to continue to race. I think it was probably about 98 when I figured out I'm not going to be good enough to get to where I want to go.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And uhm, I think that was when the, the, the, even though I'd been hearing it, because when you're raising money, the racing industry would much rather you raise the money than you.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Race. So I, I started hearing pretty early on, 95, 96, you should do this marketing stuff and give up racing, but I didn't want to hear it. 98, I think I started to recognize I wasn't going to be good enough. And then I did my last two years with Porsche in 99 and 2000 and I wasn't happy in 99 and then 2000. I just didn't want to go to the racetrack. So I think it actually helped.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Kind of burning out because it made it easier to walk away as opposed to being, well, maybe a show. I mean, I was by 2000. I didn't want to see you.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] A race car again. And uhm, then my business took off because I could really focus on it. And then I got back in a race car for the first time in, uh, 06. But at that point it was just for, for fun. And I've actually enjoyed racing more now.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Cause I don't have anything to prove and I'm not doing it for a living, so now I enjoy my racing more than when I did it in the 90s. What's your proudest achievement as a driver? Probably... I've got a...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Couple. Probably the one I enjoyed the most was winning the Ferrari Challenge race in Montreal, uhm. Supporting the Grand Prix. Supporting the Grand Prix, qualified second, took the lead in turn one.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Cool, cause I'm now very friendly with Mario.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Who's one of my heroes. It's number two on the list. Senna's number one. I've got a list. And uhm, the last time that car ran it, one at Laguna. So I kinda felt, uh, Mario, I didn't let you down. I made sure your car stayed undefeated at Laguna Seca.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Cool, uhm, my total collection is near about fifty now, uhm, and it's probably two-thirds race cars, a third.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Road cars and I, I love them all, they're all like kids. I've got a, and I, and I, when I buy them, even though they're great investments.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I'm buying them because I love them. I used to collect the little model cars, and as Richard said, all I've done is done the same thing. I've just got the bigger version, uh, now. And uhm, I've got a collecting criteria.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Which in the race cars, each car that I have had to have won a race in period. I don't care who drove it, what car it was. If I finish second, I'm not interested. So all my cars have won races in my Formula One collection.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, I love them all. Which is your favorite kid? Uhm, some that stand out. Senna's 1991, uh, McLaren, uh, Monaco winner championship year. So if I had to pick one to take with me.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That would be it, because Senna was my guy, McLaren's my team. And it's the actual chassis. It's the actual car he won for Poland. I've got Mario's Lotus 79 that he debuted in Belgium when he won, and that was a JPS car.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Everything runs. Everything runs. It has to run. And then on the IndyCar side, uhm, I got directly from Roger, uh, who's my hero in, in, in business and in racing. Uhm, Emo's 1989 Indy 500 winner and championship car. I'm a huge Emo fan.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] McLaren's first world champion. I remember that race like it was yesterday. Touched the little owl with about three laps to go.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It's a Penske car, I got it from Roger. So that, from an IndyCar standpoint, is uhm, my favorite. And then I've got, you know, an Al Junior, a Danny Sullivan, a Michael Andretti. I've got another one that's just very emotional for me, is the, I found Mario's 1987 Long Beach Grand Prix, uh, winner.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Adrian Newey. And Adrian was there. So we got this great photo. We've got with it all of Adrian's setup sheets. So we've got a photo of Mario in the car, Adrian next to him with his setup sheets. And it was just, you know, to me, that's, that's why I collect is for moments like that to reunite Adrian and Mario in the car, which is what got me into racing.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Where'd you keep them? I keep my race cars up in Leeds at United Auto Sports because they all need continuous looking after. And then I keep my road cars, a few at the house, the kids rotate through, uh, which ones we, uh, which ones we want and then the other in a, in a car storage unit and my road cars are everything from


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You know, 1965, 289 Cobra up to, you know, the McLaren, uh, Speedtail and I like a variety there. So it's Ferraris and Lamborghinis and Aston Martins. And, uh, yeah, I'm a car guy. This is fantastic.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And then I had the Lauda 312 and I didn't fit in it. So I sold that, which was one of my biggest regrets because part of my criteria used to be if I can't drive it, I don't want it. I bought the Lauda car and it's what he won his first two Grand Prix's in.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And, uh, I sold it and that's probably my, one of my bigger regrets in life. Cause I, I since got to know Nikki and he was a legend and a great guy. So that was, um, that was a mistake. Is there one car that you'd still really like to own?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Statistically the greatest race car driver of all time. I think Lewis will catch and surpass him. Uh, so I kinda felt like I needed a Schumacher car cause he was, uh, he was certainly a hero.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I've really enjoyed working with him. I'm disappointed we've never been in a situation where we've had a competitive car together. I mean we did in 07 and 17 at Indy and then before we broke he drove for United Autosports at Daytona and got up to third.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, so those were probably the most too competitive outings. I wish I had the opportunity to race with them in a race winning car.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I've never seen someone so dedicated, focused. He doesn't underestimate.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The challenge ahead, so he studies a lot, and I've never seen someone who doesn't quit in every lap.


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[Assistant] You know, 15 years ago I didn't work with them, so, you know, I think all these drivers slow down a little bit, but from what I've seen, I, you know, maybe over one lap,


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[Assistant] Well, you know what's funny is when I first met him, everyone said he was going to be a handful, right? He has that reputation. He was great to work with. We established a great relationship very early on and you know, you would think with...


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[Assistant] How poor of a race car we, we gave him, you know, he'd be a, a nightmare to deal with and he, and he wasn't. Uhm, you know, Indianapolis this, this last time around and when we didn't qualify, total professional. So I've not really seen any.


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[Assistant] Weaknesses, uh, out of him. Now I wasn't here.


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[Assistant] You know, it does seem like he always made the wrong decision at the wrong time, but you know, no one knows that at the time, you know, when he went to Ferrari, when he left Ferrari, you know, when he left us. So, you know, could he be seven, eight time world champion for sure, but he's not been in a.


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[Assistant] Most dominant race car, but I think he certainly could have had a lot more championships under his belt.


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[Assistant] Yeaah, he didn't do that with, uh, with me. Even behind closed doors, did you? No, never. Never. Uhm, and I kind of anticipated it. You know, I mean, you know, you take the worst, not qualifying for Indy. He was total professional. It was kind of his what it is. We gave it our best shot. You know, he knew, he knew he did what...


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[Assistant] He could and, you know, he's not gonna, you know, kind of cry over spilled milk. So I didn't have, which I know a lot of people kind of find it hard to book.


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[Assistant] I believe given, you know, the reputation, and I don't know if that's coming, coming back to being a racer, knowing how to handle him in certain environments, because I think if you handle him wrong, you know, these guys are all, uhm, you know,


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[Assistant] Caged animals, and so if you gotta know when to feed them, when to pet them, when to take them for a walk.


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[Assistant] You know, I'm, I'm comfortable kind of knowing, you know. The fact that you've raced, does that help? I, I think so because I, you know, it's very emotional. So, you know, the GP2 engine, drivers are


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[Assistant] Uhm, or he has been to me and McLaren during our, our time. So I've got nothing but great things to, to say about him. And also, you know, I guess one of the things that probably does bother you from time to time and you don't get it now cause he's not racing with us. People were under the impression that, you know, Fernando was calling the shots at McLaren. I was just so far from the.


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[Assistant] The truth, he was, you know, you have a two time world champion and you value his input and you, but he never.


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[Assistant] Once, you know, give me this, do this, do that. He was just driving our race car. So, uh, I think there's a lot of, uh, which is a shame, a lot of, uh, wrong ideas about what's Fernando about. At least that's, you know, all I can really talk to is my experience with him.


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[Assistant] You know, it was, it was difficult. Uhm, you know, Lando, we put him in some free practice ones to see how he would, uh, cope with it and he did great. Uhm, there was a funny incident in Monza, which was the first time Lando was up against Fernando in free practice one and they were trading times. Lando,


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[Assistant] He was, he was as quick and, um, Fernando then set a better time. And then on the last run, uh, it was funny. Um, Lando looked like he was maybe going to put in a slightly quicker time.


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[Assistant] And then, uh, Fernando says he didn't see him and messed up his lap on the third, third sector. And we all kind of laughed on pit wall. It was like.


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[Assistant] Have the new boy come in and, uh, not teach him a few lessons.


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[Assistant] Very, very impressed. I think what's been most impressive is how mature he is on, on the track. Uhm, you know, Leclerc and Sauber, his first three races, people were talking about moving him on because he crashed a lot, even, you know, Max and,


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[Assistant] Lando doesn't, um, if he makes a mistake, he doesn't try and fix that mistake in the next corner, which some of these young guys, uh, do they get.


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[Assistant] Over their skis, if you'd like, and uhm, so he's been very quick, uh, he's very enjoyable to work with, but he's been, I think what surprises me the most, very mature, he hasn't had that, you know, knock on wood, dumb rookie mistakes that you expect out of a,


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[Assistant] Is, last year he was maybe even a little too cautious.


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[Assistant] No, we, we uhm, we just kinda let him do what he wants to do. I think that's naturally, you know, part of the maturing, uh, process. Uh, what's funny is he's actually a pretty quiet and reserved...


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[Assistant] We could have kept them, uhm, we had an agreement, we could have stopped that, uhm. You had a contract? We had an option, correct, correct. And uhm, he...


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[Assistant] You know, kind of coming back to what I said earlier about, you know, there's McLaren, Ferrari, Williams fans, you know, as a race car driver, you understand, uh,


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[Assistant] Some people want to drive for McLaren their whole life, Ferrari, et cetera. So when they showed interest, we tried to get Daniel Ricciardo, uh, the first time around a couple of years ago. So he was always kind of highest on our list. And, um,


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[Assistant] When Andreas joined, you know, we kept in touch with Daniel and so.


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[Assistant] Conversations. We're starting with Daniel. We got the sense he wasn't happy where he was at. So.


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[Assistant] More kind of the stars aligned in that we wanted to explore Daniel, Carlos wanted to explore Ferrari. We could have said no, but we had an interest in, in Daniel and we kind of thought, hmm, if we can end up with Daniel and.


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[Assistant] Carlos ends up with Ferrari. That's, that's a, that's a good ending for, uh, both of us. Uhm, so we would have never let Carlos go if we didn't feel we could have got.


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[Assistant] Um, but when we thought that window was open, we kind of said, yeah, let's go explore and kind of set a date where we would come back to each other. And turned out we could get Daniel and Ferrari did want them. So we said, great, let's, let's, let's do it.


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[Assistant] Well, we always had a desire to hire Daniel. Uh, what I don't know is when, uh, Carlos got first approached by Ferrari, so I wouldn't know timing-wise, uhm, by the time he approached us about Ferrari, uhm,


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[Assistant] We'd started conversations with, uh, Daniel. Uhm, so my guess is they probably happened, uh, in, in parallel paths, which, uh, worked out great because the way that we're parting companies, uhm, cause you never know what's gonna come back around was, was awesome because we've got total harmony in the,


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[Assistant] Checko and Racing Point and even Daniel and Renault, you know, there's not a lot of harmony there. So I'm very proud, uh, cause we're.


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[Assistant] Yeah, so, uh, yeaah, he's, he's, he's great. And, you know, we're gonna wish him, you know, the best and hopefully Daniel and, uh, Lando see him in, uh, their rearview mirrors.


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[Assistant] Runs all his teammates very hard. You know, he beat Vettel. He's, you know, beaten Okon handedly. He's, you know, he and Max, there was, you know, really not much between it. So I like how aggressive, uh, he is. Of course I like his personality.


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[Assistant] I think, uh, I think Daniel Vettel is obviously uh,


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[Assistant] Uh, outstanding talent and four time world champion, but uhm, I think Daniel's, uh,


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[Assistant] Uh, Grand Prix wins. I think, uhm, there's more runway left in, in Daniel and he's a great personality that I think will fit really well with Lando and within our team. So with all due respect to Seb, you know, Daniel would.


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[Assistant] Well, the field's tight and seems to be getting tighter, but we think that'll be another step forward. It is effectively going to be the 2020 car. So I think what we see this year is a lot what next year will look like. We'll get a.


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[Assistant] Power unit advantage, we believe in the change, but we also are restricted. There's this token system on how much development you can do and we're having to.


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[Assistant] You know, team principals that are in, in pit lane today. I like Andreas a lot. I like his, he's very focused on the team. He's no nonsense. He's very goal-driven. He's a racer. He likes to keep things simple, empower his people. Uh, we get along, uh, great, you know, in getting the chemistry.


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[Assistant] Right is, is important. Uhm, and so the two of us work together very well. I'm very respectful and give him his space on what he needs to do. And on the, on the flip side, he's very respectful and gives me the space what I need to do. So the combination, uh, of us, I think works really well.


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[Assistant] And uhm, he's been a huge, uh, part of the success that we're having.


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[Assistant] Does he have carte blanche to do whatever he wants? Yeah, he pretty much does. I mean, you know, with that comes, you gotta keep us informed and he's an adult. He knows when he should run. He's a great communicator. So yeah, it's his team to run. He's demonstrated he makes the right decisions, but he also knows when he needs to consult. It's never good to


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[Assistant] I don't surprise someone. I don't surprise my shareholders. He doesn't want to surprise me. So while he has carte blanche, he knows how to work as a team, but yeah, it's, it's his F1 team and you know, my job is to give him


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[Assistant] Technical enough and you know, I think McLaren's a big organization. We've got an Indy car team. And so, you know, I've got to run.


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[Assistant] The business and uhm, you know, you, you gotta make sure you have subject matter, uh, expertise and I don't have the skill set to actually run.


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[Assistant] A formula one team. I think I've got the skill set to run the business of a formula one team and the business of an Indy car team. But the minute I think I can actually run a formula one team that I would be weighing over my skis. It's fun sitting on the pit wall though.


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[Assistant] To have that amount of money tied up in a building when we're not a real estate company. So what we need to do is we need to live there. We don't need to own it.


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[Assistant] And if we can then get that cash back and then reinvest that in the team and in the business, that's going to help grow us.


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[Assistant] While still being a tenant, we've got the best of all worlds. So uhm, you know, I know it makes for a concerning headline, McLaren Selling, McLaren Technology Center, but we're not moving out. Uhm, and we don't need to be a real estate owner. We're an automotive company and a racing company.


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[Assistant] We've got a great history there, having won Indianapolis three times. North America is a very important market for McLaren, our automotive business, and the majority of our sponsor partners. Formula One doesn't have as big of a presence in North America.


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[Assistant] That it should and I think it will over time. So when we're trying to have a commercial advantage in the marketplace to be able to, you know, one of the things people talk about in Formula One is yeah, but it's not big in America. So to be able to have a, as part of our portfolio, a bigger presence in North America, I think gives us a,


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[Assistant] Competitive advantage from a commercial standpoint. Uhm, we're a racing entity. We like to go racing. So if it's something that we think fits our brand ads, you know, we've got someone like Pato Award. Uhm, I think that guy's a potential future Formula One driver. So it's a way to nurture talent. Could we see him test?


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[Assistant] Yeah, those discussions are happening if we ever get back to testing. So yeah, so it fits really well in the overall, uh, puzzle. It's why we're in eSports to go after the younger generation. As you know, we were one of the


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[Assistant] Well, we were the first team to really embrace esports, so it's about rounding out the commercial proposition because all of our commercial partners have different agendas.


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[Assistant] Uhm, McLaren Racing be able to offer you Formula One, some Indy car, some eSports, uh, gives us a competitive advantage off the track. Do you own your factory in Indy car?


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[Assistant] You know, I think Haas, they're certainly due for a, a driver change. And, uh, you know, Checo and, and Holkenberg, you know, showed, uh,


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[Assistant] His talents once again in Silverstone. So who knows what's happening with Kimi? Who knows what's happening with both Haas drivers? And I would think Checo and Nico have to be.


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[Assistant] One and two on anyone's list if you're looking for a driver in, in one order or the other. So I'd be surprised to check out if we didn't stay in F1.


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[Assistant] I think, yeaah, I think at his age, not that he's old, he's, you know, 30. Uhm, I think once you kinda check out a Formula One, it's, it's, it's hard to come back. Not impossible, but hard.


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[Assistant] Because it wasn't long ago, I was one of them on the outside looking in, just wanting to meet.


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[Assistant] A driver get a little bit more taste of the action and so I kind of feel a part of my responsibility is to bring this great sport we live in to the fans because without the fans there would be no motor racing so we need to make sure


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[Assistant] Uh, we take care of them because they're, they're really numero uno in this sport we, we live in without fans. There wouldn't be a, a Formula One or an Indy car.


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[Assistant] Welcome everybody to Beyond the Grid with me, Tom Clarkson.


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[Assistant] This week, we're celebrating the life and career of a Formula One legend. A man who won the World Championship 60 years ago this week. And not only was he the first American to clinch the sport's biggest prize, he did it by winning at Monza in a Ferrari.


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[Assistant] Phil died back in 2008, so my guest is his son Derek, a former racer himself, and someone with an encyclopedic knowledge of Phil's career.


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[Assistant] He tells us about his father's journey from his home in Santa Monica, California to the racetracks of Europe and ultimately to the top of the motorsport world.


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[Assistant] He gives a fascinating and almost chilling account of Monza 1961, the bittersweet moment when Phil clinched the world title. Bittersweet? Yes.


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[Assistant] On the day that Phil won the sport's biggest prize, his Ferrari teammate and closest rival Wolfgang von Tripps was killed.


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[Assistant] It was a tragic end to a closely fought season.


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[Assistant] So sit back and immerse yourself in a very different era of Formula One and a very different driver to the norm. Phil Hill was an intense and passionate man and his story is told quite brilliantly by Derek. I hope you enjoy our conversation.


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[Assistant] Derek, it's great to have you on the show. Uhm, we're now at the 60th anniversary of your father's world championship success. What did winning the world title mean to your dad?


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[Assistant] And what about being the first American world champion? Was that a tag that he was very proud of?


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[Assistant] Reading about Le Mans and the Mille Miglia, what was it about the European racing scene for him?


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[Assistant] Was there any racing in his family at all? Or a love of cars or a love of machines?


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[Assistant] So tell us about the journey from LA to the racetracks of Europe because, I mean, back then in the 50s, that's a big deal. That's, that's, that's not an easy journey, is it?


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[Assistant] And was it being at that Grand Prix, 13th of May 1950?


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[Assistant] Was that the moment that he decided he wanted to be a racing driver?


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[Assistant] Derek, you say there was no number one in 1961 in the Formula One team. Is that how Enzo Ferrari liked it? Did he like to have them on an equal footing and battling each other and maybe upsetting each other? Is that the way Enzo ran his racing teams?


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[Assistant] So how did your dad and Taffy Von Trips rub along together?


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[Assistant] We're learning a lot about your father during this conversation. Can you just tell us a little bit about his main rival, Taffy von Tripps? He was a count, a German count, but is there anything else you can tell us about him?


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[Assistant] This mechanical sympathy that your dad had that led Enzo Ferrari to regard Phil as perhaps more of a sports car driver early on than a Formula One drove.


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[Assistant] He makes his Formula One debut in 1958. He finishes on the podium for Ferrari that season. He helps Mike Hawthorne win the world title in Casablanca. But can we now talk?


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[Assistant] About his year of years, 1961, 60 years ago, of the seven races he contested that season, he took two wins, two seconds, two thirds. Your dad comes into what is


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[Assistant] Officially the penultimate round of the championship, Monza 61. He's behind trips in the points, just...


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[Assistant] Couple more things I wanted to discuss. First of all, uhm, that beautiful Ferrari Sharknose 156.


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[Assistant] Now I know you've driven it, uhm, but just tell us a little bit about the car.


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[Assistant] It certainly looked beautiful. It was the class of the field that year, wasn't it?


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[Assistant] And Derek, you have driven that car, I think at Zandvoort of all places actually.


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[Assistant] What was it like and do you have a new found respect for your old men having actually driven the car?


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[Assistant] You mentioned Monza in terms of a track that would suit it, because that's 61 race.


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[Assistant] Turned out to be the last one at which the old banking was used there.


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[Assistant] Did your dad enjoy that section of track? Such an iconic looking bit of racetrack, wasn't it?


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[Assistant] We've already established that the pressure was on Von Tripps. Yet he's the one starting the race on pole. Your dad is back in fourth.


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[Assistant] Was that a surprise, given that he had taken the five previous pole positions?


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[Assistant] Did he worry, Derek, that there was something untoward going on and that Enzo Ferrari was trying to manipulate the outcome of the world championship?


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[Assistant] And so, after qualifying, Monza 1961, I imagine he had a few...


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[Assistant] He had a few words to say because he was down on power, so what happened next?


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[Assistant] Wow. And, and, and when he was running it in on race morning, you did that on the open road. Is that right?


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[Assistant] Came round at the end of lap one, in the lead of the Grand Prix, a lead that he would never lose. But Derek, Von Tripps was killed on lap two.


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[Assistant] Was your dad aware of the gravity of the crash during the race itself?


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[Assistant] Did your dad ever feel that the crash cheapened his world title?


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[Assistant] He then went to von Tripp's funeral in Germany where he was a pole bearer.


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[Assistant] How tough, given everything you've just said, how tough do you think that was for


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[Assistant] One of the things that's come across so far in this chat is that your dad was intense, uh, obviously a very...


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[Assistant] Fast and brilliant racing driver, but intense. He's someone who thought about what he did a lot. How much did he think about safety? How much did he worry about dying in a racing car?


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[Assistant] I mean, is it true that he was sick before the start of each race?


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[Assistant] So why did he continue? Because after 61, it didn't go so well, did it really? I mean, you know, when you think of ATS and Cooper and things, why didn't he just call it a day?


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[Assistant] He left Ferrari at the end of 62. Did he fall out with Enzo at any point?


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[Assistant] Do you know what Enzo said to your dad after he won the title?


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[Assistant] Did it frustrate your dad that he didn't have as close a relationship with Enzo Ferrari as some of the guys who'd gone before? I mean, he was at the team in 1958. He saw how close Peter Collins was with Enzo Ferrari, for example.


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[Assistant] So Derek, it was, it was a wonderful career for your dad. I did want to ask you about one other thing, because in 1966, one of the great


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[Assistant] Car Racing Movies was made by John Frankenheimer.


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[Assistant] The film Grand Prix and your dad drove the camera car in a lot of the scenes for that movie. Did he ever talk to you about that? The experience and you know.


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[Assistant] The man who grew up in LA gets involved with Hollywood.


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[Assistant] You can't just throw that into conversation, Derek. Stunt driver on Ford versus Ferrari.


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[Assistant] I love the fact history repeats itself. The old man in the film Grand Prix and you in Ford vs Ferrari.


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[Assistant] Back to your dad. Once he'd retired, Derek.


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[Assistant] Was he a competitive dad with you in that? Was he one of those dads who?


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[Assistant] I know you say he didn't play sports with you, but just, was he competitive with his children? Having a game of tennis, he had to beat you. He wouldn't, he wouldn't let you win. Was he one of those kind of guys? No, because he didn't play those games. Oh, okay. Not at all. Okay.


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[Assistant] I did love seeing the two of you on the road together in the early 2000s. Uhm, when you were doing Formula 3000 over here in Europe and dad coming to support and actually I'll never forget you were testing it


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[Assistant] I remember we had two hotel rooms between the three of us and I sort of figured that you and I would be sharing a room and dad would be on his own and dad goes, um,


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[Assistant] If anyone listening to this has been to the hotel, I can't remember what it is, uh, but, uh, what brand it is, but the hotel overlooking the track at Hereth.


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[Assistant] Phil and I are sharing this room. Tiny room. Twin beds, luckily. And, uh, we turn the light out and I'm thinking, okay, it's about 11 o'clock, time to go to sleep, turn the light out.


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[Assistant] And suddenly your dad asked me a question about Formula 1, so...


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[Assistant] I give him a brief answer thinking, well, I'll just roll over, sleep on the other shoulder. And then that was it. We were off. The lights were out and we were talking after lights out for about an hour. But he just, Derek, he wanted to know everything.


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[Assistant] Everything about what was going on in Formula One in 2003. And I loved his passion for it. I loved his passion for, for what you were doing as well the next day, him pacing up and down the pit lane as you were doing it, getting your laps and it was, um, it was a wonderful thing.


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[Assistant] If he were alive today and he died back in 2008, but if he were alive today, would he understand people making a fuss 60 years on? Would he appreciate it?


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[Assistant] Derek, it's been a wonderful chat. Thank you very much for your time.


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[Assistant] Derek's description of that Monza weekend was incredibly powerful. First, the technical problems that Phil had to overcome and then the struggles he had in convincing Ferrari to change the engine and the gearbox right through to the aftermath of the race when Phil was crowned world champion.


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[Assistant] Derek, many thanks for your time. It was great to catch up and I look forward to seeing you again soon. And for those of you wanting to know more about Phil Hill, I highly recommend you take a look at his book. It's called Inside Track and head to philhillbook.com for more.


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[Assistant] And as ever, please send in any stories or thoughts that you have on Phil. And remember, I'll read out the best ones next week, so send them to me at Tom Clarkson F1, or use the hashtag F1 Beyond the Grid.


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[Assistant] Which brings me on to what you sent in about Mick Schumacher after last week's show. We received a lot of feedback, so thank you for engaging as much as you did. And let's start with this one from Elsa.


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[Assistant] What lovely words, Elsa. And I agree with you, Mick is a humble and very engaging person.


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[Assistant] It was amazing to listen to Mick and his incredible personality. I love his stories about his father and how he's driven his father's cars. I wish the best for his future in Formula One. Well, Emerson, thanks for that and what a great name. Please tell me you're named after Emerson Fittipaldi.


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[Assistant] Mick's description of how he got used to the H pattern gearbox in that Jordan really amused me a lot.


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[Assistant] And let's go to Matteo Guasco next, who sent this in.


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[Assistant] I wish all the best to Mick Schumacher. He truly deserves it. He sounds so calm and mature despite his age. I wanted to hug him throughout the podcast. What a lovely message, Matteo. You're right. Mick is very mature for his 22 years and let's send him a group hug through the podcast.


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[Assistant] Great to hear from Mick, his ability to memorize, observe, be open to accepting changes, his passion towards racing, it all reminds me and makes me think of...


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[Assistant] Now, as ever, I could read out loads more messages, but we'll have to leave it there for now. So thanks to everyone who wrote in. We love hearing what you have to say.


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[Assistant] Well that's almost it for another week. I hope you enjoyed hearing about Phil Hill from his son Derek. And don't forget to send in your thoughts and stories on him. And as ever, I'll be back next week with another great guest from the world of Formula One. So see you then.


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[Assistant] Frankly, got fed up with trying to find a nice route for the mechanical gear change through the car.


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[Assistant] If you don't want me to exercise that control, then you have to buy my contract out, do something, you know, whatever. That's what it took. You put your effectively your job on the line.


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[Assistant] You're right. I mean, there were a few reliability problems. We'd been testing in Brazil. Uh, we used to go testing there. Uh, I think something like.


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[Assistant] No, no, no, you can't change down now because you're going to blow the engine if you do, so it won't let you change down. Whereas in the good old days, you know, you get a lot of these drivers roaring along in sixth gear at 180 mile an hour, jammed their foot on the brake, they want to go into first gear first you go.


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[Assistant] They're looking for the little cracks on it. How can we get this guy? You know, I mean, first of all, he's English. He's working in England for Christ's sake. You know, we've got to get this guy. So it all starts again and.


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[Assistant] They are just, you know, and there's this guy that's created it all. I mean, you know, you have to say


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[Assistant] He came out of his, I mean in those days he was, don't forget he died in the middle of 88 and I'm talking 87 now, end of 87, beginning of 88 when we finished the, what we call the Type 639, the, the, the unraced 88 version.


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[Assistant] He actually came out of his office with his stick and came out to the workshop to see this thing.


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[Assistant] And this goes on for a few weeks and then eventually. Is he any more specific or is it just a team in Europe? No, that's how he started the team in Europe. So you go through, right? Well, of course there's Ferrari, but I think then there was Alpha. There was also, I believe Mattress still at the time teams like ATS, you know, the German.


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[Assistant] Yes, okay. We did, you know, we had some success.


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[Assistant] And if they played their cards right, 91, I could have carried on and they could have perhaps won the championship. But anyway, that's the way it went. Um, so I said, I can't run it from England, but what I can do, I could set up a facility where we would design and say wind tunnel test the next car.


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[Assistant] So we talked about this idea of setting up a, you know, a design and sort of development establishment. So I, I said, okay, so we signed up on that basis. And I said, fine, um, I, you know, I've got to go out and find a factory to start.


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[Assistant] Not, not my first time at the Claren team at Claren, but that was real early seventies, but back in the Ronde when Ron and I started P.


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[Assistant] Uh, no, Berger came to Ferrari after I went back the second time. The first one there was Alberetto in a Lazy, I think it was. And then Berger in a Lazy. And uhm, I got on very well with Gerhard.


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[Assistant] This comment is now 180 degrees different to what Berger and Malaysia have been telling us for the last year or two. They've been saying


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[Assistant] I've not worked with him, but he's obviously right up there in the driver's stakes. But of course if you go back, I mean I never worked with Clark, but he's the one that I always look back to and think.


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[Assistant] So uhm, I have to, I have to go back there and say those guys are the ones that really get me.


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[Assistant] To be honest with you, Ron, in typical Ron fashion, Ron had talked to Hogan, who was, uh, John Hogan, who was the sort of Philip Morris man who signed the checks effectively.


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[Assistant] Ron had sort of said to Hoagie before that, before 81 at the end of 1980, you know, we're going to, we're going to win John. Don't worry. You know, this is going to be the answer. This, this new carbon car, this is going to do the job. And you know, Ron had already sold.


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[Assistant] But then you've got races like, I mean, I have to go to like Long Beach, 1983. And then we were, we were fighting a tire problem. We were on Michelin's. The other main team on Michelin's were Renault who had this powerful turbo engine.


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[Assistant] And uh, another good story, I remember Long Beach, the start there, was on a long gentle curve, and if you were 22 and 23 under gear, you were actually back around the curve, you couldn't see the starters.


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[Assistant] You know, whereas an aluminium chassis, you hit it at the end and it would end up crumpling the panels halfway down the chassis. Whereas carbon composites would...


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[Assistant] Well, when I started, you see, I was, we were, I joined run at project four, his little team that were running formula two and three and building BMW pro cars. Um, and that's where it all started. Now at that time.


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[Assistant] I've just done the Chaparral Indy car, which was the first proper ground effect car at Indy. And it was a success. And it was a beautiful car.


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[Assistant] Hence I went down the idea of the carbon chassis where I could make the chassis very narrow and still retain all my torsional rigidity and so on. That was where I started from. Once I got off down that road,


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[Assistant] And the jump there was the shape of the car, the full coke bottle thing and the paddle shift gearbox. And so I'm now doing these big jumps in


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[Assistant] Expected to come up with something new and to a large degree that was wrong.


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[Assistant] We just got a company jet, so he was whizzing off in the jet to Europe at weekends. And okay, I agree. Coming up with sponsors and money.


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[Assistant] So I talked to him on and off at different times, but he said to me, he said, because we had Friday off in Monaco, if you remember, he said, come up to my apartment.


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[Assistant] So I went up there, just him and myself and, um, his housekeeper made us some lunch. And basically he said to me, should I go to Benetton now? He said, should I move to Benetton? And this is.


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[Assistant] I said, well, to be honest with you, Ayrton, I said, I would love to have you on board, but I have to be honest and tell you that right now we don't have the capability.


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[Assistant] Part of me going to Benetton was to lift their whole technical expertise, their technical capability, their manufacturing capability, factories, the whole lot.