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[Assistant] Uh, doing what they should do, which is working together as teammates, not showing any like kiddish behavior, childish behavior animosity.


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[Assistant] Uh, and I have to say, I feel like there's a bit of a, oh that's cool to be back together. And they say it often, it's kind of like, nobody asked them to put that picture of the two of them when they were six years old the day Pierre signed the contract with us.


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[Assistant] It was, it was really heartwarming to see that. Like those two basically could reckon


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[Assistant] A relationship, not a friendship necessarily, but a relationship. And that's nice. Just that. It could happen.


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[Assistant] Delicate thing because you don't want to discipline those guys in the sense that


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[Assistant] What makes them champions is their instinctive desire to fight. They turn into like...


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[Assistant] Let them race. I'm going to let them race all the time. And people were scared because two, three times during the year, they, they had like some pretty close combat. Uh, but I told them, I said, I'll let you race as long as you behave like adults. I'll treat you like adults. If you,


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[Assistant] And so I think they understood that because it's basically treating them like adults. I give them the keys, the responsibilities. I'm not issuing orders or Otmar for that matter because Otmar is the boss in the team. Uh, but I'm reminding them of the responsibilities they have, the responsibilities to take the team higher and the responsibilities of


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[Assistant] We learned a couple of things. I would say there's no such thing as loyalty, especially when individual interests are at stake. It's difficult to combine both for people that are sometimes a bit too young to weigh the pros and cons of both.


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[Assistant] And then, uh, we also learned that we were, uh, insufficiently, uh, prepared, uh, on a couple of, uh, areas, uh, especially in the way we structure our contracts with the academy drivers and the way we transfer that into the, the Formula One world.


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[Assistant] We learned that we left too many doors open in our contract because no one thought those people would just go and leave using that open door. It would only be normal to come back to the team that helped you.


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[Assistant] Well, we're going to change that. We've changed that already. We've a bit more, uh,


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[Assistant] Your kids have a contract with the parents. It's a bit sad, but it's the way it is. Uh, you never expect your kids to leave the...


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[Assistant] More money involved, which potentially can make your head spin a bit every now and then. So we have to come to terms of it. We're getting more and more professional, which means we need to be more and more professional in every single aspect of the sport, including the way we contracting.


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[Assistant] They also have their own career to manage and god knows it's a difficult one because there's a...


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[Assistant] Not necessarily prevented those cars from leaving. Should he had come to us with something a bit more structured that says, hey guys, I'm also having this offer.


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[Assistant] What do we do? Can we talk? You know? It just caught us by surprise. I guess it caught also Ricardo by surprise, which says a lot, right?


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[Assistant] That, that might be a little bit candid, uh, and we don't want to be candid anymore. And so that's why we put that thing to contract. I don't, it's, you know, it's okay. It's over now. I don't, we learned the lessons for ourselves. The rest is just one person, uh, actually wish him well.


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[Assistant] We'll see when we get there, right? But there's no need to hold grudge. It's like it's destroying you and destroying the things you want to do.


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[Assistant] You know, that's gone, we're better off with Pierre now, so why would I, why would I want anything else? I'm like, I'm fine with that. If down the road the opportunity arises, I'm not saying no, I'm not saying yes, we'll see, we'll see where we get there.


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[Assistant] Ah, nothing short of like, uh, uh, critical because Otmar has been


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[Assistant] The quintessential glue between the teams. And by the teams, I mean, of course, Antstone and Viri, but also Antstone, Viri and the track because the track team is a bit of a different thing. It's a bit of a different animal.


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[Assistant] And there's a human side, the dimension to it, uh, bringing people together, creating an atmosphere. There's also a technical dimension to it. You need to have time of track is maximum the week, minimum


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[Assistant] Because you develop things at a different pace. You need to recombine those two. And that's what Outmar is doing. And it looks...


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[Assistant] Easy from, from higher up, but the job of team principal is a super difficult one because you have to reconcile a lot of different time horizons, skills and priorities and put them together towards performance. And that's what Omar is doing.


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[Assistant] Yes, yes, there were a couple of people, but some of them were not available, simply as that. Uh, Otmar was pretty much top of the list because he's done something that we really, really were impressed with, which was the days of, uh, Force India.


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[Assistant] Basically bring the seventh or eighth budget on the grid to the fourth position, uhm, which, which speaks a lot about the things we want to, to create in the era of Costco being efficient and effective is pretty important.


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[Assistant] Yes, yes, yes. He put himself on the line, uh, under the line of fire, uh, did his best.


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[Assistant] And I think, you know, of course, the drive to survive is just one angle, uh, and perhaps sometimes a little bit of a twist on how things really happened, uh, even though the reality is still preserved, you know, it might be a bit of like narrative shortcuts, I would say.


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[Assistant] But at the end of the day, what happened is also that Otmar was behaving in a...


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[Assistant] Very honest, transparent manner, defending our interests with a lot of, like, uhm, uh,


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[Assistant] Principle, and I don't think it's a shame, and we are a shame of anything, and it shows, I think, in the episodes. At the end of the day, we don't look like fools or dishonest people, and that's all I've credit goes to Atmar for that.


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[Assistant] Well, industry I wouldn't say because we haven't won world championship to basically claim that, but it's certainly a very, very strong, uh,


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[Assistant] He has a super sharp eye. He's been there, done that. It's incredible to have him. And Matt Harmon has seen what good looks like in the top teams, the recent ones, like Mercedes. And he's a power unit engineer, which also was extremely important for me because


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[Assistant] Being myself a modest, uh, engine engineer, I know there's a different, vastly different job from being a designer, uh, or an aerodynamics, uh, engineer. And the two of them basically, first of all, uhm,


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[Assistant] complement each other and create a fantastic, uh,


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[Assistant] But you know, even engineers are weird animals, so you like to speak to your own tribe and


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[Assistant] But Matt, uh, was obviously overseeing that from a distance as the grand architect of the car. And together with Pat, they created the best combo which we didn't have before.


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[Assistant] We decided that when we elected Matt as the team technical director, we decided that we will call the car a system, which is normal for engineers, right? And everything else is a subsystem, the power unit being one. As critical as the power unit is,


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[Assistant] It is, as a subsystem, it's still a sub-system and it has to be integrated in the system with a certain amount of constraints and this math was the kind of like link between the two that makes Viri feel like, okay, we're going to optimize the subsystem but still using the car system framework. And that's how you become a real works team. Before we were just like,


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[Assistant] A concatenation of two factories. Now, we've finally come back to a work team structure.


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[Assistant] It's definitely, uh, better than where it was, to be honest with you.


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[Assistant] Only because the integration of the PU was not perfect and not because the PU was not


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[Assistant] I mean Viri are pretty much capable of extracting as much horsepower as they want from the PU, but it was not like a seamless job in terms of integrating the two.


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[Assistant] The new one is definitely much closer, uh, to the, to the competition. I think we're like in the ballpark of a tenth with the best. So that's just fine enough because, uh, let's remember we have a second to, uh, catch up with Red Bull or something like that. So.


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[Assistant] Yeah, that's true, that's true, but at the moment I'm only concerned about myself and our team. Uh, and so basically, uh, uh, it's much better to think that, okay, if we get to a tenth, then we'll be in a good place. Uh, the rest is down to the car.


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[Assistant] Focusing on the customer because they're paying and so you need to fix their problems and if you're a bit different in terms of definition, technical definition, you just basically have to split yourself in two.


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[Assistant] Which makes it very hard to support both teams, unless you're fully structured for that, but it's very hard. And so for us, it was more important to basically, uh,


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[Assistant] Collect ourselves, turn ourselves around, restructure ourselves, serve ourselves first, which we are finally doing now. And you saw it at the test, we just do what we have to do, deal with our own problems.


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[Assistant] We're finally getting to a place where we can, we, we can handle ourselves properly and start looking at other teams, potentially customer teams, but it is not a must have. It's nice to have because of course, if you go to track like Bahrain,


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[Assistant] And you have three times more the number of engines running around, like Mercedes, for instance. You're going to have three times more data.


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[Assistant] But you can also have three times more problems, again. So you'll have to decide carefully what you wish for, right? So you have to decide. For us, at that stage now, we start considering that we could do it. But do we need it? Not necessarily.


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[Assistant] Well, it's, it's, it's immensely different because it's a world of its own, uh, it's difficult to compare it to anything else, but in talking with, uh,


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[Assistant] would be investors, friends in other sports. I also know that it's the same for them. What strikes me is that it's a world of exceptional individuals doing exceptional things.


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[Assistant] And this is where having learned from organizations similarly positioned like Google or BCG, because it's really like exceptional individual, individuals doing exceptional things in a different field, right? In consulting, it was mostly like thinking about extremely hard problems.


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[Assistant] Uh, for corporations doing business globally, Google was thinking about customer and delivering exceptional products for an organization that's


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[Assistant] Used to catering to everyone's problems every day. So I'm drawing from that, and I find it natural to use it in this exceptional world of Formula 1. It's different, but we use a lot of the same tricks, I would say.


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[Assistant] Yeah, I pretty much think so. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it was, uh, it was high time. Uh,


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[Assistant] Panem and Circunsem, right, like bread and circus. That's what we're doing. So it's good to have them because they, they, they


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[Assistant] Make sure that everyone is, uh, gonna be sustainable from the top team to the last one on the grid, which is quite important because that makes the sport more, like, uh, viable.


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[Assistant] And also more enjoyable for everyone because it really is a show. So I, I, I love the idea that, uh, North America loves Formula One now. And Formula One loves America, I guess.


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[Assistant] I think Andretti is a big name in motorsport, so it wouldn't hurt, but at the same time I'm very aware of the fact that, uh,


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[Assistant] There's no obligation for the circus to represent the whole world because there's only 10 teams so it will always be unfair to some places. It will make sense for them to basically try and get this license.


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[Assistant] This episode is brought to you by Get Your Guide, home of unforgettable travel experiences, including a behind the scenes tour of the McLaren Technology Center. Go to GetYourGuide.com to book now.


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[Assistant] In Formula One, first impressions can be career-defining. When Liam Lawson replaced Daniel Ricciardo for five races, he proved that he has what it takes to compete at the highest level, even if his ultimate goal remains out of reach for now.


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[Assistant] Hello and welcome to F1 Beyond the Grid with me Tom Clarkson.


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[Assistant] Liam Lawson has demonstrated over the last couple of months why Red Bull believe he's a potential star of the future.


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[Assistant] After Daniel Ricciardo broke his left hand at Zandvoort, Lawson seized his opportunity with both hands. He beat his AlphaTowery teammate Yuki Sonoda in four of their five races together. He took his first F1 points in Singapore and he overcame tough conditions in Qatar. Liam


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[Assistant] Truly experienced all the extremes that this sport has to offer and he emerged unscathed and with a huge amount of credit to his name.


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[Assistant] Given how much experience he's built up in his junior career.


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[Assistant] He's been car racing since he was 12, and he's proved his quality by claiming a couple of titles along the way. In this chat, Liam candidly reflects on his Formula One debut. He tells me how he found out he'd be replacing Ricciardo, the biggest thing he's learnt, and which other drivers he's leaned on for advice.


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[Assistant] We talk about his Red Bull origins and how he's dealt with being overlooked by the team for an F1 seat on several occasions. Liam also reveals who his racing heroes are, why he wants to show young New Zealanders that Formula One is a reachable goal and what his hopes are for 2024. I hope you enjoy our conversation.


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[Assistant] Liam, great to have you on the show. How are you? I'm good, very good. Uhm, nice to be here. Now, this feels like the calm after the storm. You're back as a reserve driver for Red Bull after five races with Alfa Tauri. Just how frustrated are you not to be


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[Assistant] Did Formula One live up to your expectations, those dreams that you'd had?


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[Assistant] Can we go back to Zandvoort? Race one. Of course, Daniel Ricciardo does the Friday practice and then has his accident in which he hurts his hand. What happened next? When did you find out that you were going to be racing that weekend?


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[Assistant] How big an ask was that weekend in hindsight? As you say, Zandvoort, old school circuit, the weather was horrible. You only had the one practice session. It was huge, wasn't it?


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[Assistant] Did you get any sleep or were you just memorising the steering wheel on Friday night chatting to the engineers all night?


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[Assistant] Did you know at this point that you were definitely going to get Monza as well?


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[Assistant] How much easier was it to get three practice sessions and, and to extract the maximum from both you and the car?


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[Assistant] And the fact that Monza is a bit of a one-off in terms of downforce levels and things, did that play to your advantage in that Yuki for example hadn't driven the car in that


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[Assistant] Did you get any advice from the other Red Bull drivers, from Max?


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[Assistant] What happens if you overthink while driving a Formula One car? Do you then try too hard and you end up getting a bit ragged? Is that what happens?


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[Assistant] Talk to us about the start in Monza, because I remember after the race you were frustrated about your getaway there. What happened?


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[Assistant] We'll be back with more from Liam in just a moment. But first, did you know that finding and recruiting great talent for your business doesn't have to become a stressful second job? You can hire faster and better with Indeed. Indeed is the hiring platform where you can attract, interview and hire all in one place.


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[Assistant] So forget spending hours sharing posts on multiple job sites and searching for candidates with the right skills. Indeed.


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[Assistant] And that's what I like the most about Indeed's hiring platform.


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[Assistant] How efficiently it streamlines and automates the process. Its instant match technology shows you candidates whose resumes listed on Indeed fit your description immediately after you post so you can hire faster. Plus, it's the only job site where you only pay for applications that meet your must have requirements. According to Indeed Data,


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[Assistant] In the US, over 80% of employers get quality candidates whose resume on Indeed matches their job description the moment they sponsor a job. And candidates you invite to apply for your role are three times more likely to submit an application than candidates who only see it in a job search.


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[Assistant] Indeed is an unbelievably powerful hiring platform, delivering four times more hires than all the other job sites combined according to Talent Nest 2019. So don't get left behind. Join more than three million businesses worldwide that use Indeed to hire great talent fast.


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[Assistant] Just go to indeed.com slash the grid and support the show by saying you heard about it on this podcast indeed.com slash the grid terms and conditions apply need to hire you need indeed.


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[Assistant] Well look, let's bring it on to Singapore. This was the race when you really laid your claim on a full-time seat in Formula One. Would you agree with that?


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[Assistant] Did you know at that point, and I'm talking after the race in Singapore, that you were going to get Japan and Qatar as well?


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[Assistant] What did the management say to you after the race in Singapore? Before qualifying, they told you that you're not racing in 2024.


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[Assistant] Did they give you any words of encouragement after that point's finished?


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[Assistant] So you must have been supremely confident going to Japan. You've just had that points finish. You knew the track from Super Formula. You tested there. You raced there earlier this year.


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[Assistant] How difficult is it to find the limit in sector one at Suzuka in a Formula One car?


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[Assistant] I thought the racing between you and Yuki at the start of the Japanese Grand Prix was sensational. It was hard, but fair.


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[Assistant] The old guard, when I say the old guard, I just mean, you know, the establishment, the established drivers, how have they been with you in these five races?


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[Assistant] Are you a better racing driver now than you were six weeks ago?


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[Assistant] So how frustrating is it that you've effectively been pushed down by Red Bull three times? First, Nick DeVries gets the Alfa-Tauri drive at the start of 2023 instead of you.


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[Assistant] Then Daniel replaces Nick in Hungary instead of you. Daniel then gets the seat next year alongside Yuki or Yuki alongside Daniel, depends how you look at it. When perhaps you'd argue that you've done enough to prove you need a race seat. Just how are you feeling about all that? Do you understand Red Bull's position?


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[Assistant] Liam, let's wind the clock back. Tell us when you first came on the Red Bull Radar. I mean, I read a story that it was


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[Assistant] One particular race in the Toyota racing series back home in New Zealand. Is that true? Yeah, I think it was even just an overtake.


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[Assistant] On the other side of the world, how tough did you find it moving to Europe being 10,000 miles away from your family? Did you get homesick?


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[Assistant] I mean, a direct comparison we could make is Oscar Piastri, who's done a similar thing to you. He's left Melbourne, Australia, come to Europe, but he's had Mark Webber.


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[Assistant] Batting for him over in Europe. Who have you had? Who's been your big brother if you like?


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[Assistant] This episode is brought to you by Get Your Guide, a leading online travel experience platform and home of Originals by Get Your Guide, an exclusive collection of unforgettable travel experiences. Get Your Guide offers all sorts of one of a kind trips, but the one I think you'll be most interested in


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[Assistant] is a behind-the-scenes tour of the McLaren Technology Center, the home of the McLaren Formula One team, where the cars driven by Lando Norris and Oscar Piastri are designed and built. It's an absolutely incredible place, and Get Your Guide is exclusively offering the first general public tour.


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[Assistant] You'll get an up close look at the legendary McLarens that took Senna, Prost, Lauda, Hamilton, Ricciardo and many more to victory.


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[Assistant] Plus there's the trophy cabinet, filled with hundreds of pieces of silverware.


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[Assistant] You should check out The Originals by Get Your Guide Collection. It's a mix of exclusive, one-of-a-kind experiences, and if you're a sports fan, you'll find so many exciting things to do in the UK, the US, and around the world.


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[Assistant] Remember that the tour of the McLaren Technology Centre is only available to the public with Originals by Get Your Guide. Reservations are on a first come first serve basis on selected dates throughout the year. Visit GetYourGuide.com to book the Originals by Get Your Guide McLaren Experience now.


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[Assistant] When you get that call at Zandvoort to go and race another new car, because you're used to jumping from beast to beast.


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[Assistant] Now next weekend, you have the super formula finale. Uh, you can win the championship.


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[Assistant] Irrespective of what happens next weekend in terms of the championship, bigger picture now. How will you look back on 2023?


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[Assistant] Can I at least get you to reflect on what I think must have been a highlight? I want to take you back to February when you drove the RB7 at Bathurst. Now that must have been a highlight, right?


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[Assistant] I remember Jensen Button saying something similar after he drove the track in the McLaren. Just elated, excited.


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[Assistant] Let's talk about your racing heroes, if we could. I mean, the obvious person to talk about is Bruce McLaren. He said, you know, great racing driver himself set up a phenomenal racing team. Is he a hero or is it much more current? Tell me who you looked up to at home.


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[Assistant] What about the sort of Scott Dixons and the guys doing things in America now?


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[Assistant] Bruce McLaren, Denny Holm, Chris Amon, Mike Thackwell, now there's a name for the listeners. He was a phenomenal driver who I think did, what, one season of Formula One and then gave up.


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[Assistant] Well, Liam, best of luck at Suzuka next weekend in that finale of the Super Formula Championship. Good luck there. And I am sure we're going to see you back on the Formula One grid soon. I hope so. We'll see. Thank you very much.


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[Assistant] Liam's description of the five races he did with Alfa Tauri is fascinating, it's educational and it's amusing. I mean, that drinks bottle straw story from Zandvoort is priceless. Liam, many thanks for your time. It was great to chat. Good luck with what comes next and I'll see you at a racetrack again soon.


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[Assistant] Now please send in your thoughts and stories about Liam. What's your assessment of the races he did for Alfa Tauri? What hopes do you have for him in the future? Let me know through all the usual means. I'm at Tom Clarkson F1 on X and you can use the hashtag F1 Beyond the Grid. All that segues beautifully.


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[Assistant] Into what you sent in after last week's episode with Andrea Stella. I referred to that conversation as a lesson in how to go motor racing and it seems many of you agree. Let's start with this from


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[Assistant] Next, let's hear from Paul Underhay. Great episode, Tom. Andrea is impressive, particularly when explaining how he's focused on creating the conditions for continuous improvement rather than chasing individual upgrades. Plus the need to be happy being out of your comfort zone. Will he go back to Ferrari? Well, Paul.


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[Assistant] Who knows what the future holds, but I find it very hard to believe he'll go back to Ferrari, not after what he's achieving at McLaren, but never say never in this game. Finally!


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[Assistant] Let's hear from Matt Oldford. Wow, I could listen to Andrea all day long.


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[Assistant] So much experience and so logical and sensible with his answers. Definitely a lesson in motor racing. Haha, we agree Matt. And thanks for the note and thank you too to everyone who wrote in. We love your messages and we do read them all, even if I don't have time to read them all out now.


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[Assistant] And please remember to send in your thoughts and stories about Liam Lawson in time for next week's show.


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[Assistant] Well that's pretty much it for this week. Thank you for listening and don't forget that F1 Nation's review of the United States Grand Prix is out now wherever you get your podcasts and of course I'll be back next week with another great guest from the world of Formula One. See you then.


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[Assistant] F1 Beyond the Grid is produced by Formula One and Audiaboom Studios. Until next time, keep it flat out.


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[Assistant] The circuit Gilles Villeneuve in Montreal has seen a lot of drama over the years. And not least in 1989 when Thierry Bootson won his first Grand Prix for Williams.


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[Assistant] Terry enjoyed a 10 year Formula One career in which he drove 164 races. He never had the best car, yet he won three Grand Prix and took 15 podiums. And the last of those wins saw him beat none other than Ayrton Senna.


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[Assistant] Welcome everyone to F1 Beyond the Grid with me, Tom Clarkson.


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[Assistant] It's a real treat to have Thierry Bootson on the show this week because he's a very rare breed of racing driver. Someone who was very quick behind the wheel of a car, who went on to achieve great things after his Formula One career. And in Thierry's case, that was setting up Bootson Aviation since when he hasn't looked back.


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[Assistant] Over the next hour, you're going to hear him discuss his wins, his love of engineering, his friendship with Ayrton Senna, his life as a businessman and much, much more. He's an intelligent and articulate man with a great story to tell. I hope you enjoy our conversation.


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[Assistant] Thierry, it is wonderful to have you on the show. Thank you very much for your time. 10 seasons in Formula One, 164 races, 3 wins, 15 podiums. How do you sum it all up?


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[Assistant] And when you reflect on your career and you start thinking again about you as a racing driver, what were your greatest strengths behind the wheel?


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[Assistant] You must have forged some really close bonds with your engineers.


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[Assistant] And that 1988 Benetton, the B188, was a very successful year.


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[Assistant] You work with Patrick Head at Williams. How different were Patrick and Rory Byrne?


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[Assistant] I always think Patrick was very unforgiving towards his drivers. I mean, he came out with that wonderful quote once. Drivers are like light bulbs. You can take one out and put another one in.


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[Assistant] Tell us a little bit more about the relationship between you as a driver and your engineers, the ones you were working closest with in that, let's say the car has a particular problem. How would you set about solving it? Would you work?


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[Assistant] Together with your engineer thinking of a solution or was your job as the driver just to report what the car was doing on track?


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[Assistant] Let's talk about the wins now. Uhm, first, Canada 89, you're in the Williams FW12, it's wet, you're sixth on the grid, directly behind the Ferraris. What were your expectations coming into that race?


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[Assistant] Let's break it down. I'd like to start by talking about the Renault engine in those conditions. Renault had just come back into Formula One as a


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[Assistant] Full on manufacturer. You've already said that the engine was slightly shoehorned into the back of that car. It was actually the sort of the Judd engine from the previous year. How good was that engine? How drivable was it in the wet?


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[Assistant] So you have a beautiful engine, sounds great, very smooth power delivery.


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[Assistant] You say that the FW12 was a little bit difficult handling wise. So I'm going to say that what really made the difference that day in Canada was the man behind the wheel. And you were always a genius in the wet. And I want to know. Thank you very much.


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[Assistant] I want to know where this unbelievable skill for the wet, the feel that you had came from.


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[Assistant] And were you ever tempted to pursue a career on two wheels?


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[Assistant] So let's take it back to Montreal 89. As you've said already, the track conditions were changing. It was dry. It was wet. How difficult is it when it's like that just to keep on top of the situation? Cause so many other drivers didn't.


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[Assistant] Can you still remember how sweet it was to be stood on the top step looking down at your team and your friends?


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[Assistant] Well except, Terry, I don't think the second one was easier because you go to...


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[Assistant] Australia, later that year. Again, treacherous conditions.


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[Assistant] And you led most of that race in Australia. So in a way, was it a more satisfying win than Montreal had been? Because of course you actually took the lead of that race late on when Senna had his engine problems.


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[Assistant] Did you ever question what you were doing as you were getting strapped in in front of that BMW turbo engine in the Arrows? Did you ever think, what am I doing? Am I? You're shaking your head at me.


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[Assistant] Can you describe a qualilap with that BMW turbo? I keep talking about the BMW turbo because I'm thinking that was the one in all of your career that had the most power, right?


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[Assistant] You had a very good record in Hungary, third in 88 and 89. Did you go into that race feeling particularly confident?


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[Assistant] Terry, let's get this straight, you had no brakes, you had no rubber on your... No, no, no.


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[Assistant] But everything was on the limit and I want to know how you dealt with having that yellow helmet of Ayrton Senna on your gearbox for so much of that race. Describe the intensity of that.


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[Assistant] Did he stick his nose down the inside at any point?


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[Assistant] Well, it was a great challenge and to beat a man like Ayrton Senna in that way, does that make this your most satisfying win in Formula One?


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[Assistant] What was it about Ayrton do you think that made you such good friends? Why did you get on so well?


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[Assistant] Did he confide in you at all, sort of about racing and everything that was going on in his racing life?


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[Assistant] Did you stay close to Senna after your Formula One career ended in 93?


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[Assistant] And you were a pole bearer at Senna's funeral in, in Sao Paulo. Can you describe the scene there?


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[Assistant] If we ever started selling beyond the grid merchandise, I know exactly who I'd want to turn to to help us do it.


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[Assistant] What was your own attitude to danger theory? Because, well, outside of Formula One, you had those two massive accidents at Le Mans. The first in 81, wasn't it? The second, uh, in 99. How did you come to terms with what you were doing?


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[Assistant] Was your teammate at Spa in 1985 when he was killed? Tell us a little bit about him and how special he was. Do you think was he one of the best guys you've ever raced?


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[Assistant] Seems that so much in your career happened at Spa Franklshaw. You made your Formula One debut there.


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[Assistant] So racing debut, Formula One debut, and then of course there was the tragedy as well with the association with Beloff as well. I mean, there is actually a bit of talk at the minute that is Spa going to stay on the Formula One calendar? Is it going to run every two years?


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[Assistant] How important do you think is Spa to Formula One?


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[Assistant] How difficult was it for you, uhm, a young Belgian to make your way in motorsport, to, to find the budget, to actually get the attention of the Formula One teams, in your case, Arrows. Just describe your journey in the early years.


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[Assistant] And then what about the move to arrows? How did that come about?


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[Assistant] Happy times. One of your teammates, Gerhard Berger. Gerhard, a character, both on and off the racetrack it seems. What was it like being Gerhard Berger's teammate?


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[Assistant] Just like in Formula One, millions of people around the world are looking for their opportunity to make it onto the podium and build on their success. And LinkedIn Jobs is on hand to help you grow your small business and build on your success in the process.


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[Assistant] And once you're done, don't forget to add the purple hashtag hiring frame to your LinkedIn profile to let everyone know you're hiring and then your network can help you spread the word. LinkedIn jobs helps you find the candidates you want to talk to faster and you can post a job for free.


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[Assistant] Just visit LinkedIn.com slash grid. Again, that's LinkedIn.com slash grid to post a job for free. Terms and conditions apply.


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[Assistant] Let's talk a little bit, if we could, about Ligier. It's interesting that you had discussions, albeit through Ayrton Senna, to go to Ferrari, but I'd love your thoughts on what it was like


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[Assistant] To race for a national team, Ligier being the French national team, were the pressures different to the other teams you race for?


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[Assistant] I always think of Ligier as a bit of a missed opportunity just for the team, in that they did have money, they had the support of the French government, they did have good drivers on their books over the years. They sort of should have had more success, really.


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[Assistant] You actually finish in the points in your last race for the team in Australia, but how were you feeling about Formula One at this point, at the end of 1992?


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[Assistant] That's a happy way to end your career, but a frustrating end to your Formula One career.


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[Assistant] Thierry, it was a wonderful career. And what I find equally extraordinary is that most drivers, when they retire from Formula One, from racing, they slow down, they do a lot of skiing, that kind of thing. They get fat.


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[Assistant] You have not stopped. I mean, boots and aviation is, you're running that from Monaco, but there's other businesses as well. I suppose because of all of the sponsorship hunting you did, have you always had an interest in business?


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[Assistant] And you obviously stay in touch with racing, if anything, through the planes you're selling to racing people.


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[Assistant] Tiri, you've had a very interesting life. Brilliant Formula One driver. Great success since then. Thank you very much for coming on the show.


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[Assistant] But so is everything that Thierry said about his Formula One career. The cars he drove and the engineers he worked with. And I can't stop thinking about what it must have been like to wheel spin in fifth gear on the approach to Casino Square with that BMW turbo engine.


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[Assistant] Unbelievable. Formula 1 certainly was different back then.


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[Assistant] And Thierry also got me thinking about Senna again. Just imagine if he and Ayrton had been teammates at Ferrari.


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[Assistant] Now as ever, please remember to send in any thoughts and stories that you have on Tyrion. Did you see him race in either Formula One or sports cars? Did you see him win? Send in what you've got to Tom Clarkson F1 on Twitter, or use the hashtag F1 Beyond the Grid and I'll read out some of your messages next week.


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[Assistant] Which brings me onto what you sent in about Frank Derny after last week's show. Let's start with this great story from Stin Caverns.


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[Assistant] On Saturday evening, we were hanging around the Ligier building and I saw Frank Derny. I asked him if it was possible to visit the factory and he said yes and gave us a private tour.


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[Assistant] Just imagine that, Stin even sent me a picture from inside the Ligier factory. What a great experience and how very kind of Frank.


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[Assistant] Let's go next to this from Joshua Barrero. Truly Frank is a man of a million stories. I would love to hear about how close Alonso was to joining Toyota and the atmosphere around the team during those latter years in the sport.


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[Assistant] Well, wouldn't it have been good to see Alonso at Toyota? And if he had gone there and been successful, I've got a feeling it would have kept Toyota in the sport. It was a case of what might've been.


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[Assistant] And finally, let's hear this from Rory Keegan. Frank is a great guy. We met at Hesketh in 1977 and spent the season having a great deal of fun. I enjoyed every minute of it and I'm very pleased that a graduate of the stable block did so, so well. What a lovely message, Rory. Thank you for sending it in.


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[Assistant] Well that's almost it for another week. I hope you enjoyed hearing from Thierry and remember to send in your thoughts and stories on him. And why not have a listen to the latest edition of F1 Nation, the sister podcast that I do with Damon Hill and Natalie Pinkham. This week we've debriefed all about Sunday's Azerbaijan Grand Prix.


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[Assistant] Thanks for listening, see you back here next week when I'll have another great guest from the world of Formula One. F1 Beyond the Grid is produced by F1 and Audioboom Studios. Until next time, keep it flat out.


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[Assistant] Oh god. We know when I heard that, to begin with, I hope people didn't watch my Jetta race. Because on the first stint, I was asked to change tyres after 5 laps.


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[Assistant] Because my, because my mediums were destroyed. I was trying to race Lewis for the first three laps of the race, so I thought, I'm gonna do a good job here, and then my tyres went away.


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[Assistant] Over 10 years since anyone's 12, 12 years since we've seen a strategy like that. Yeah. And there you go. And yeah, it was fine. I was actually improving on my in-lap. I was three or four tenths off on my best lap previous as I boxed. So, um, which was the three or four tenths needed to stay in front of the zoo, but, um, we were just going faster and faster. How, how is that?


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[Assistant] Yeah, it's a weird one because no one truthfully at this minute understands the tires. I don't, if you look at.


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[Assistant] Uhm, qualifying for instance. No one's doing the same strategy.


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[Assistant] We, we did 56 odd laps on one set of tyres and uhm, it felt fine. And so it's, it's kind of confusing, but at the same time, I think on that tyre, that C2 tyre, we, we're really good at it. And every time I put that tyre on, it feels great. And I think there was a little bit of,


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[Assistant] Opportunity there because we had a three place grid penalty, so we knew going into the race, let's just.


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[Assistant] There is a story. I went to, uhm, I went to Thailand before Melbourne. Similar situation as most of Asia slash Australia. They've been a pretty heavy lockdown for two, three years. And I haven't been there since 2019, so it was a good chance to see my family, but also, uhm, I guess I've


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[Assistant] Got bigger over in Thailand and I wanted to use my, uh, what do you call it? Following as a, to do some good. So I went to an orphanage and the kids were 2,500 kids in this orphanage, a massive orphanage. They have their own school. It's a whole village dedicated to orphans. It's incredible and they're doing an amazing job there.


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[Assistant] And when two of the kids showed me around, I had some really tough stories, uhm, but they're massive fans of Liverpool.


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[Assistant] People don't know, uh, Thailand is a, a massive following for the premier league and you're either a Liverpool fan, a Man United fan, a Chelsea fan or an Arsenal fan. But I would say generally speaking, you're either Man United or Liverpool and, um,


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[Assistant] And obviously red. And all the kids, we played football, red shirts, they had red hair.


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[Assistant] And, uhm, they wanted to dye my hair. So, uh, off we went. We were in the temple, so to explain a bit more, there's the, the, the orphanage is run by monks and, uhm, as well as Jost's brother.


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[Assistant] So there's a bit of a whole thing towards that. And that's Jos Capito, the team principal here at Williams. His brother lives in Thailand.


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[Assistant] And is one of the biggest sponsors for the orphanage.


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[Assistant] And so the monk was there, a very highly respected monk, and we were sitting in one of the chairs he gave me, and I had a stray cat in my hand, and I had the kids dyeing my hair.


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[Assistant] And yeah, that's pretty much the story. I wanted blonde because the other, some kids had blonde, some kids had red, but they went out of blonde. That's what they told you. That's what they told me.


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[Assistant] And they even ran out of red hair, but the local village across the street was still selling the red dye. So they went and grabbed the red dye.


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[Assistant] And this dye cost 30 baht, which is like, uhm, oh, it's like 60p, more or less, 60 cents for anyone else listening. And uhm, when they put it on my hair, I was like, I just hope I wake up and my hair hasn't fallen out.


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[Assistant] Boker is called, uh, he's called known as the Iceman in the orphanage.


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[Assistant] Coincidentally, uhm, because uhm, every time he goes he brings ice cream for the children. That's 2500 Cornettos. That's a lot of Cornettos. And the kids call him Iceman because they know every time he comes he brings ice cream. Not for Kimi Raikkonen. I wish it was. I wish all the kids were massive Kimi Raikkonen fans.


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[Assistant] Yeah, I would say, uhm, it truly did feel like a win.


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[Assistant] It felt just as big as any other point that I've scored and, uhm, I haven't scored a win unfortunately, but I've scored podiums and it felt, uhm, equal to that. It's quite, uhm...


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[Assistant] What's the word, it's quite impactful as a driver to see the team respond so, uhm, enthusiastically to the point, because of course we haven't had the best start to the year. And honestly, uhm, you know, we're not where we want to be.


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[Assistant] So, it's hard, you know, let's say it's easy to get, uhm, caught up in that, and you know, it's not, it's not great, but, uh,


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[Assistant] But to be able to give that point back to the guys and girls and to see what it meant to everyone. Of course it meant a lot to me, but it meant a lot to me also because it meant a lot to them, if that makes sense. And to see everyone so enthusiastic, it felt amazing to be able to be that contribution to them.


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[Assistant] Ideally, of course, we don't want to be, I mean, we don't want to be doing one stops, you know, 57, 58 laps races every time and trying to, um,


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[Assistant] Find that, but at the minute, I know what you mean. Yes. You know, we, we don't have the pure outright pace, so we need to be different. And I think, ehm.


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[Assistant] Let's try to, let's try and make something happen. And uhm, and we did and it worked and that's kind of the beauty of F1. I feel like anything can happen and these tyres, we're so new into the championship, no one's really got to grips with it.


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[Assistant] There's opportunity there. And, and you know, there's a few DNFs going around as well. People aren't, are struggling with reliability.


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[Assistant] Saying that, of course we don't want to stay in this place the whole time and, uhm, the positive thing for us is that we know why we're struggling. It's not like, you know, we're sitting there and going, everything feels good but we're not fast.


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[Assistant] We have clear limitations. We need to address them. And once we do address them, I feel like, uhm, maybe we'll do a one-stop strategy and end up in the top five.


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[Assistant] There is, there, there is uhm, there's clear directions to go, and I 100% believe if we fix them, we'll be up there, you know, fighting for points.


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[Assistant] More or less about efficiency, choosing the right upgrades at the right time and making sure we're doing the right steps to achieve that because it's...


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[Assistant] It's, it's easy to, to, you know, see a lot of issues at once and then go, we need to make everything better. But realistically speaking, we just need to choose the biggest problems and, and focus on them. And especially with the budget cap that's come in, you have to be very selective about what you upgrade. So, uhm, that's the plan right now. But yes, I, I, I do believe so.


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[Assistant] Yes, to some extent, you know, I, I rely on them as well. So we're, we're, we're a true team in that. And uhm, we've been on the sim.


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[Assistant] Last week for this, even this week actually, uhm, making sure we get the right up, the right direction and, uhm, it's quite, it's an exciting time. It's, it's really enjoyable to be a part of a team where we're clearly there, you know, everyone's ears are open and we're all trying to, the best for the team and,


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[Assistant] And that's it really. I quite enjoy it. It's kind of a new role for me because I'm not


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[Assistant] I'm not the most outspoken person, but I, I do feel like, uhm, I've had that year in between where I've been able to, uhm, develop not just as a driver, but as a person and I feel more mature. I feel like I can be that team leader.


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[Assistant] Trying to put that into use and be a part of that development is exciting.


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[Assistant] Yes, uhm, perspective I would say not too much, but what I did learn is experience and I would say general maturity in that way because I felt like


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[Assistant] In terms of driving, I couldn't improve myself because I wasn't actually driving the car. Uh, it's quite a tricky situation to be in, but you're, you're not driving a Formula One car in that year away. I'm driving the simulator, which is only so good, but a simulator has a restart button and it doesn't have quite the motion that you do on


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[Assistant] In, in a real car. So I turned my attention more towards, uh,


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[Assistant] Well, very simply, I want to be a, be a better driver. That's, that's the main aim. And how do you do that without driving the car? That's, that's a tricky position. So my, my focus was more like


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[Assistant] How can I develop myself? What do I need to improve? How can I work with the team and understand, not just driving, because driving is a very kind of natural thing for us, but it's also building the foundations of


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[Assistant] How do you communicate with, you know, the aero guys, with the vehicle dynamic guys, with the engineers, with everyone else in the team, and how does that help get the performance and...


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[Assistant] Just understanding also even just the simple politics of everything and how everything works was really beneficial for me this year. I think it's actually something


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[Assistant] They'll look over two drivers and I'll look over the performance between teammates. But what they don't see is a driver's value.


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[Assistant] In developing a car, for instance, I'm sure someone like Lewis is unbelievable at feedback and pushing development and pushing the team in the right way. There's no reason not to believe that if you're up at the front for that long.


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[Assistant] You're very good as a driver to make sure the team are focusing on the right areas to improve and develop the car. And that's a part which I don't think people may gloss over.


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[Assistant] What was also important was just listening to, you know, Max Checo and I would always speak to their engineers and ask them what.


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[Assistant] What would you see that Checo does or Max does that?


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[Assistant] How did, how did they, how did they interact with the team and how do they, how do they work? I mean, we're all our, we're all our own selves and we all have different ways of working, but it was quite interesting to have that


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[Assistant] Step back away from the spotlight and from the paddock in that way and look at things from a different perspective.


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[Assistant] And on my side it was more or less like, okay, so how do I...


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[Assistant] I want to be in F1, I feel like I'm the most, I'm the hungriest driver I know, because I want to be in that sport more than anyone. How can I get back into it? And very quickly it was just...


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[Assistant] Okay, I need to do the best job I can, right now, straight away.


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[Assistant] And show my value, almost in the senses that I was just talking about. I'm not driving the car, but I need to show my value in everything outside of the driving side.


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[Assistant] I mean, the Sim is driving, so there's still that. But yeaah, that was really it. And uhm, I went straight to work and I was developing the car already in December for the guys for the year after. And so when we went into 2021,


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[Assistant] You know, we, we, we did knock out a few things and we, we focused on some areas that made the 2020 car so difficult to drive.


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[Assistant] And then it came to Bahrain, winter testing, the first three days of testing. And I don't know if you remember, but the car was quick out the blocks.


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[Assistant] And uh, just listening to, had the radio on and I was listening to Max and Cecho. I was there at the time and obviously Cecho was new, but Max drove the car last year and he was talking about how much better the rear felt, how much more stable it was. And you're just like, ah, you know, it does hurt a little bit because you're, at the same point you're like, okay, that's great. You know, I've, I feel like I've contributed to that.


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[Assistant] Well, yeaah, I mean, to be fair, you know, people like Adrian and Christian, they gave me a lot of credit for it. I don't want to say I helped in a massive amount, but of course I felt like I chipped in to the whole thing.


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[Assistant] The first few races were, ugh, it just, it was terrible. I, I, I was a reserve driver, so I had to go to every race, but just being there, I couldn't watch or anything. I was just pretty much just sitting down and yeah, trying to stay away from it as much as I could, but you kind of get used to it. You, you build the... How do you fill your time?


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[Assistant] I was spending three, four days a week in the simulator.


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[Assistant] Uhm, I think from Monaco I spent Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday in the sim and then I flew out on Saturday to the race. So I was busier than I ever was and I was doing DTM at the time too.


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[Assistant] So uhm, I was busier last year than I was this year and, and 2020 when I was actually driving. It was, it was, it was really full on, but all worth it. That's enjoyable. Enjoyable. It was enjoyable because I felt like, obviously the more I got used to the fact that I wasn't racing, the more I felt.


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[Assistant] Becoming a team, team player in all this and, and of course I guess my heart still laid


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[Assistant] Good to me. I still felt very happy for Max for the team and I felt like I was a part of it, which was kind of what it was all for in the end.


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[Assistant] The hunger never went and the hunger just got more and more. The more that I sat watching everyone driving.


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[Assistant] Uhm, the more I wanted to be back in it. But of course there comes a time when you just don't know what's going on. And I think there was a point where, you know, Cecho didn't have to, didn't have an easy time of it, especially at the start of the season. And there was also even Yuki, you know, cause I turned into a driver coach. I know I was going to ask you about that later, but so.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Of course Checos was, was, was doing a great job by, by, by kind of that mid to end side. And I was like, okay, well that's, that's a closed door. UQ was also picking it up, uhm, and he signed quite early as well, you know, for, for, for next year. So I was...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] In a position where I was like, well, my chances within the Red Bull family are kind of, they're not really there anymore. And uhm.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And of course it hurts, but it never stopped me from trying.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I had a plan, I had it all written down, you know, what I wanted to be doing, uhm, of course plan A was F1 and there was a few...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Um, but then there was the inevitable plan B, plan C, plan D, whatever it may be. And, um, I mean, I went through a few, I was looking at IndyCar actually as, as, as an enjoyment because I, I came out of DTM and I was like, you know, I enjoyed the series. I enjoyed the people within it. I loved working with my team. It was AF Courser at the time.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But I was like, I don't enjoy this, the GT racing. I don't enjoy the ABS, the traction control, all that kind of stuff.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I wanted to drive something that I enjoyed to drive and so I was looking at IndyCar as my main plan and there was Formula E of course. And as time went on during the year it looked more and more like that was the direction I was heading and so I couldn't


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I couldn't be silly and put all my eggs in plan A and then not have a backup plan. So I was still scouting. I was still, you know, asking questions. Did you go to an Indy car race? Yeah, I went and I spoke to all the teams and I, and I made sure that I, um, had my face shown and, um, you know, had good conversations with, with teams.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] No, that's fine, I approached him, I gave him like a, like a CV, you know, this is, this is not a PowerPoint, not a PowerPoint, didn't follow George's one, paper's fine, but I basically said, listen, this is, this is what I can do, I put some statistics that go in my favour, of course, as you should, and uhm.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I think it was, it was in that period, right? I don't really know too much, but yes, I think it was around that period. And uhm, and then we just had started that conversation and we spoke more and more.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And there was a point where, you know, it was, George was definitely confirmed and, or even if also announced, it was clearly on the way through.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And, uh, and yeah, it was all, it went pretty seamlessly from that point on. And within like two weeks, the conversation in a two week span, the conversations just ramped up very quickly. And then by the end of the two weeks, it was all pretty much done.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, well, that's the thing is, you know, I still relied on Christian and Helmut to help me out in crossing the line because I was still in contract with them and it was, you know, this whole, okay, we've got to, there's a lot of things that need to be moved around. A lot of paperwork needs to be done. And so they were very happy for me and everything just all,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Click together and it all gelled up and the puzzles all connected and there we were and, and, um, and I was pretty...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So much effort's gone into it, and there was like that kind of, uh, what do you call it? It's that...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That calmness. That, okay, we're in it. But then within, within an hour, your mind's going,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It's like, right, how do I need to prepare? Okay. I need to start speaking to the team, need to understand, speak to George, speak to Nikki and understand it from that side and start going into meetings and understanding the car and the people within the team. And then that's it. You know, your mind's gone and you're back into it.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] They could have given me anything and I would have gone, yes, please. Thank you very much. Uhm, no, when I first went into the team, I could see firstly that Joss was, was very passionate, very motivated and he, I could see there's, he has a confidence


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I don't know, it's a mixture of confidence and ambition that is kind of, um, addicting and, uh, you know, you feel like you can just trust what he says and he's got that much.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And everything was about the future and, you know, they're not looking just next year, next year. It's five, six, seven years in front and with Doralton as well that, you know, it's our.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Well, that's, that's the dream scenario. Uhm, but yes, exactly that. It's, it is a long-term project and you know.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] What I can say is, you know, this year I am completely a Williams driver and that's what I see. I see, uhm, just as I saw last year, the best thing I can do for myself is to do the utmost and, uhm, I generally believe it. I do believe in this team and I, I see a great future for the team and I want to be a part of that.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It is a bit, and I, and I realized, you know, I was very stressed in 2020.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And I, it's very simple, but it's like, why stress? You know, what's the point of working yourself up over, over nothing? Because it is a stressful business this, and you kind of look back, I look back at 2020 and I thought to myself, no, did you really enjoy it?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It's really the pressure I put myself under more than anything else. I'm my biggest critic. It was uhm...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But I feel like I've already been sacked.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I feel in a piece and in a way, and I feel like, um, I feel I'm in a good place, you know, I'm, I'm happy. I'm enjoying my racing and that's, that's sounds a very basic thing, but it's one of the most important things to be doing as a racing driver is to making sure that you're actually enjoying it.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] For sure, yeaah, I think, you know, when you feel like your back's against the wall, that's never, that's never good in that sense.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] 2020, but it's nowhere near as bad as, I didn't see it as a terrible year. You know, I was inexperienced. I was in my second year in F1. You look at most people in the top teams, they've had at least five or six years worth of racing.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I myself know right now I would be way on top of what I was in 2020 just because I know so much more now. And it happens, you know, and I don't regret it. And I feel like we still got podiums on a tricky car to drive. It was a good learning process. I feel like I've learned, you know, I kind of went through the trenches and, uh,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I think coming back to this year, it was also, I knew that it wasn't that bad and I wanted to prove a point and I wanted to be able to come into the year and show people, oh, oh hang on a minute, he's actually not that bad. I feel that at least for the moment, I hope to think.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] No, I don't. You know, of course, if I had better results, it would have put things in a completely different mindset. And yes, I think, uh, I do remember my first race or second racing in Austria.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] One of the races, uhm, I was getting like bashed in, in, in, they're like, oh, where's your performance? Where's your laptop? And I was like, hold on a minute, it wasn't even that bad. Everyone, shut out of it. And I think a result like that would have.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Quietened it all down and I would have had the next few, few races, six, seven races kind of with a bit less of that.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Noise, because the noise started from the very first race of the year. It was there and it was quite intense that kind of, you know, uhm, what's going, you know, it's that kind of what's going wrong, what's going wrong, what's going wrong.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And, uh, and for sure it would have helped, but I never ever would blame Lewis for any of my kind of, what do you call it, my, my, what's happened to me in that sense. It's, it's, it's all on me.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But yeaah, no, it's one of them things and he apologised and honestly, you know, I still look at that, especially the Brazil one. I look at it as like a, you know, I could still have done my...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] As you know, as a, as a teammate. And I think, um, I think even Cheko found that out, you know, in, in, in last year. And I feel like even this year is kind of.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Most probably a new car, new regs has kind of rebalanced everything a little bit more and I think Cecho's doing a great job kind of up against him, but he's obviously super talented and likes a car in a certain way and, and he's hard for others to follow. Is he political?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] No, he's not, not at all. He's straight forward off track. Very straight forward. One of the most straight forward actually.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He has a lot of self-confidence, self-belief, which you would do if you won a world championship, but of course even before then.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] People see him as maybe arrogant. I don't think he is at all. I think he's just very, he's very determined, very hungry. Um, sure of himself, but he's not arrogant. And he, like I said before, he can, uh, just simply, um, do the talking on the track really.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] No, there's nothing particular I would say. And I would say, you know, before I even drove with Max, I always loved front end grip. I always had way more front than anyone else I used to race against. And that was from go-karts as even through, even, you know, in GP3 when I was with Charles and, and, and De Vries and all them, I still, I still liked front, still like front.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And it's the same here at Williams, I still like front. So, it's just that Max was almost another step in a different section of, he liked a whole different world of front. Uhm, so I would say, it sounds weird, but I like the car on the nose, even if it doesn't sound like I did in


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So, as kids, even when I was like 7-8 years old.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And my dad used to, well, I used to love my dad, it would be practice sessions with 40 carts on track each time. And I would love if my dad put me at the back and I do the practice session and the practice wasn't a practice session. For me, it was a race and I would go from 40th and try and get up as many positions I could before the session ended.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And maybe part of that was it? I dunno. Uhm, but we, I used to do that all the time. And, uh.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And I think it's just one of them things. I think overtaking and racecraft is another area which is tricky, especially it's a different kind of racecraft in Formula One. You're dealing with dirty air and you're dealing with DRS and you're dealing with energy management.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] There's a lot of things going on, you know, you can catch people off guard by deploying your battery in different ways to everyone else.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah, I do. I, I, not to say I don't like it. But it does go back to karting, does it? It does. I think it's racecraft and I think, um, you need to karts to really.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I feel like karting is the best form of racecraft. When you're a kid and everyone's slipstreaming each other, you know, I remember races, we had like lines, 25 karts within two seconds, but that's in a race, right? It's just a snake. It's a human snake.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I think it is too late. Oh, sorry. Nicky's actually very impressive. Nicky started pretty late. He started when he was 12, 11, 12. And that's late. That's late. And I think it may even be later, but I think it's 11 and 12.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] My feeling, and I don't know if this is right or not, and maybe some neurologist, psychologist will tell me I'm chatting rubbish, but I feel like when you are young,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] When you start racing at, you know, I know kids who've been karting since they were four or five, which is ridiculous. Was that you? No, I started seven, which is in old, in them days is actually old. And seven was illegal. You can't actually, you can't go to most tracks when you're seven.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So I was carting in a field. My dad was dealing with my lap times in a field. It was a figure of eight and that was it. So uhm. And that was an important time. You know, yeaah. I feel like it's like riding a bike. It needs to feel so natural. It has to feel like.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You're, you're at one and, and everything is, we don't think when we're driving. It's all just, you can't, we can't really explain it to you why we do things. It just, we just do it, you know. Most probably if we really think about it, we can explain it to you.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But it, it has to feel, you know, like daydreaming. Exactly. And, um, and I think if you start too late, you, you miss that beginning part where, where, where, where it starts to feel like one and you start to have to think about what you're doing. And that's when it's, that's when you're, you're, you're too late. That's when it's like,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It's different, I think for me it's different right now because I'm in Williams and Charles is in a Ferrari and winning races, but I would say that it's no different if you were


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Max and Charles now, as to when they were kids, in karting anyone can win, more or less. You know, there is still equipment that's quicker than others, but it is pretty similar.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] When you go towards F1, there's a bit of a difference because you're, I mean, you're all competitive, but you're all in different machinery. And there's a little bit of that going on, but everyone's competitive. I think when you're younger, maybe it's a little bit more.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You know, elbows out kind of thing. And in karting, you can obviously push people and, and nothing happens. Whereas in, in racing, you get the, uh, you get a front wing change and a bit more going on. So, uh, there is a little bit of that, but yeah, the competitiveness, the will to win that doesn't change.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Most of us 12 for age 12, it's all the way through to, to now. So that's for most of us 12, 13 years of racing together. I see them more than I see my family right now, just the way that we travel so much. And.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I mean, maybe it would be a tough 12 years if you hated them and you saw them every day. But, uh, fortunately we, we, we.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] We're friends and I think people maybe see that in a bad way. Like why are these guys, you know, friends? Like it's, it should be the olden days when everyone hates each other and starts fist fighting each other.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, we do. I mean, that's the thing is, is we are friends. We are, you know, we, we enjoy each other's company and we love bantering and winding each other up. Once it comes to the racing side, it's kind of like.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Everyone's their own man, and, and it's, once the helmet's on, it's like, that's it, everyone, you park that friendship away, but you still...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It's not like a reality TV show where it's not like we take off our helmets and that's it now. I unfollow you on Instagram and our relationship's finished. You know, we're still friends and what happens on the track does happen.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Maybe there is a bit of a text, what was that for? Kind of thing, but we'll make up for it, you know, we're old enough.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Okay, so this is, this is the situation. Carlos is the best.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Way too much. The guy has, he doesn't even have that much free time, so the fact that he fits in is pretty impressive. We were in Monaco last week.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] We were there for five days. He went to the course for four days. He landed in Melbourne.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And he was ticked and he landed, he left a day later than I did. I left on Sunday night, he left on Monday. He arrives, he's done, he's done a, what's that, a 20 odd hour flight. He's gone straight to the golf course from the airport, straight to, straight in. He's texting me, hey, let's play golf.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And then there's a bit of a gap, and I always say that's where I am. I mean, I'm just behind.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I played the other day, I got 95. What's that?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, he's not too bad and Lando is in between 15, I'd say. I think I'm being nice to him. Maybe I'm not. I don't know. I'm sure he's going to tell me otherwise. And then there's Charles.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And Charles, let me tell you, Charles is on a different, his scoring system is unbelievable. He's, uh, he's got, he's got it from somewhere. I don't know how he's got it, but uhm.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Hang on a minute, let me just back check a bit and count what you just did. Uhm, and so there he is and he's, he's somehow scoring similar to me.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] We were playing actually last week and we weren't allowed to be a group of four because of the speed of play.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I just, I couldn't believe it because I was watching the guy. I was behind him. I was, I was, I was, we were, we were watching the shots they were doing zigzagging his way down, warming up his tires. The full buggy must be ran out of battery by the end of it and.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And the score, he comes back, he shouts after he's parted, you know, bogey! And so we were writing it down, and I'm just like, there's just no way, the guy is, the guy is, so I was like, alright, the last 15 holes, we're away from the clubhouse, we can join back up as a four. And, uh, and funny enough, he wasn't scoring very well.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I think it actually teaches us patience. It teaches us, uhm, I play with my girlfriend, my girlfriend. I bet she's a pro. She's a pro. She, she is.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But she's very calm when she plays and obviously I'm not calm when I play, I'm kinda chaotic and I'm all over the place and I'm not happy. But then at the same time I enjoy it, like it's so...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Nice to be able to just do something so different to what we, so, so slow pace to what we do. And we're not good enough


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] She does, but uhm, you know when you're like mom and dad.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] If I teach my sisters how to drive, they don't listen to me, but they'll listen to the driving instructor who I would like to think is a little bit less talented than I am. Maybe not. Maybe he's the next.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And it's the same in golf. I mean, I'm no good. My girlfriend tells me what to do.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And I, and I'm just like, it doesn't work. My next shot's rubbish. What you just said to me doesn't, doesn't work. And she's like, you've got to give it time. That's the correct way. I'm like, I'm not going to waste, I'm not going to waste three or four shots to fix it. I need results now. So that's the full


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And it's a fair point by her, she doesn't know where to start. She's like, everything's so wrong.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That, where do I even go to improve you? The whole thing's wrong. So, uh, so there's that side.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I don't know how many times I've finished second. I have no idea how many times I've finished on a podium. That doesn't count. I know how many times I've won, but winning is what it is. That's the end of the job.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Most of my races were won in the first two, three laps because I removed devotion. Most people are a bit uptight at the beginning of a race because death was very popular at that time.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And I was getting depressed by the pace of my life, the limit of being at home. I had two little boys and of course Helen. And I had been doing enormous travel.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And to make proper money, you had to do a lot of races. It wasn't just a question of Formula One. Nobody did only Formula One. So I was doing Can-Am, I was doing Indianapolis, I was doing touring cars, GT cars, everything you can think of on a global basis.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Most of my friends were dying as it went along. In fact, Helen, my wife, counted 57 friends that had died who had holidayed with, traveled with, of course, raced with.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And I had mononucleosis one year. I had adjuvial ulcer that burst.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I had already made good money because in those days, good money was a different value.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I think in 1971, I for the first time earned a million pounds. But a million pounds in 71 in sport was a lot of money. I think I was number two in Europe. I think a bullfighter was getting slightly more.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But, all of that put together, because I was with Ford, I was with Goodyear, I was ABC's World World of Sports, I was at Formula One, I was at Formula Two, I was at Formula Three. A big lot of work, if you like, and a lot of travel. So therefore, I sort of burned out.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I don't think it's any different today than it was then. You know, here I am still travelling. Here I am still associated with Formula One in one way or another. I love the sport and I go to the events that I enjoy going to. I've got good friends and I'm well looked after.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Frustration was because of pressure and time.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Different climate changes, different time changes, you know.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Because I was doing it so hard and fast, the time changes were really a problem. So was the weather. Uhm, so therefore I think


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Put together that, and I was always driving good cars, I mean I had Ken Turrell.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] By that time I could choose who I went to bed with, so to speak, in the racing fraternity.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Because of my Ford Motor Company relationship, I was still driving a Ford Anglia in some events and doing an awful lot of public appearances.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Jim Clark and Graham Hill and people of that kind and then Francois Sever etc. So we had a lovely group of people that were traveling together and when I went to America it was always with Denny Holm. And Denny was a shy man in many ways but he was a good passenger to be with. So


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I was doing it as well as I could, but eventually it drove me down. You know, the judicial ulcer was a problem because it hemorrhaged.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And I was racing one at Hemorrhage and I spun twice in Monte Carlo in the rain and finished six or something, which was sort of something I'd never done before that far back in Monte Carlo. So I put all of that together.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And I was doing ABC's Wild World of Sports because I was reasonably good at that. I got to know how to do it by a man called Jim McKay, who is the best commentator of sport, I think, in the world. And I was working with him all the time, whether it was the Olympics or whether it was all sorts of different sports.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] All of that's exciting if you've never done it before. But after you've done it a few years and you're thinking, another trip across the pond, I would go to Atlanta, Georgia to do a stock car race.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] We would be telecasting it not live. It would be for the following week or the week after that. I would fly in.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Sometimes more often with Concord than anything else.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] ABC had all the things organized, so I would have a helicopter to get me out of the track, back into the night flight. I would never take the Concorde on the evening flight.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Because it was slower than sleeping on a plane and going on a 747. But I would always use Concorde from the UK or Switzerland. From the UK naturally with, with Concorde.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] To the United States. So I had it very well organized, but in the end, I was burned out.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Clarity of why am I doing it. Clarity of the pressure, of the travel.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I would be getting more annoyed at things if a plane was late before it wouldn't have bothered me. A lot of things just because I was trying to keep up with a lifestyle that I myself had bought.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It wasn't anyone else to blame, I wasn't being pushed into it. I had Mark McCormack as a manager, if you like, of my, uh, my sporting life. And he was the best in the business, probably the best ever. So I had really good people around me. But even at that,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The better you become, the more you have to do, because the more people want you. And it just became a time when I was really, I think, physically and mentally burned out.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And he came from the South. He was a lovely man, but he was a real hardcore racing nut. And he liked us, Graham Hill and I, and so forth, and Jim Clark, etc. He spent a lot of time with me, and when I was really depressed,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I went to him in the Speedway Motel, which I was staying in at the time, and I said, do you mind if you come along? I wanted to have a chat with you, because I was beginning to burn.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He, he just had common sense about how I should manage my own life in a more relaxed and correct fashion.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He just did the trick for me. It was room 49, I think, at the Speedway Motel in Indianapolis that we had the meeting. And at that time I said, right, I'm gonna retire.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Nobody else knew it. Ken didn't know it. Nobody else knew it until much later. I told Ken Tyrrell and Walter Hayes and one other gentleman from Ford Motor Company.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Because I felt an audit to them to start preparing what they were going to do without me, if you know what I mean.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And they thought, you know, you've been at it long enough maybe, and you've got every right. Ken would rather I hadn't, I know that.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] By which time Francois Sever was developing magnificently and I took him from a puppy almost in motorsport into the big time.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] To pay the respects to a lost one who you had something to do with or worked with or played with or enjoyed with.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I felt that it was right for me to do it right up to the last moment. I mean, I decided to announce my retirement at Watkins Glen the day after Francois Sever was killed. I didn't do it the day he died.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Because Ken was still saying I should do the race. And then I said to Ken, I think out of respect to Francois, I shouldn't do the race.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It was a tricky one, because it would have been my 100th Grand Prix, so it was 99 that I did in the end, but it's a nice number. But I just felt that it wouldn't be right. And Helen was with me, and she didn't know until that same afternoon, Helen and Nora Terrell were terribly upset, but France was.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Accident. They left the track. So I stayed with the mechanics. They thought it might have been a mechanical failure. I know in my own experience that it wasn't. But I know why he had the accident.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] To tell Helen that I was no longer a racing driver that was the words I actually used. What did she say? She just cried.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Bettering whatever skills I had.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And I think at that time, because I was good at another sport, shooting, trap shooting, and it doesn't sound very exciting in comparison to Formula One racing, but


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Mind management became the most important thing when I was racing. Because if you missed a target, you never got it back. If you make a mistake in a racing car, a mediocre mistake, you can make it up in one of the next 20 corners in some cases. So I learned a lot from my shooting.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Most of my races were won in the first two, three laps because I removed devotion. Most people are a bit uptight at the beginning of a race. And certainly in those days because death was very popular at that time.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So, for whatever reason, I could remove emotion completely. I had no uptight feeling at all.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And therefore I got my first two or three or four corners well in advance. I would be usually three or four seconds faster on the first lap than anybody else. So I learned all of those things and I passed them on to Francois and everything I ever knew he got.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Because we just had a great relationship. And he was a puppy when he came.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I was a good puppy, but you know, puppies sometimes pee in the carpet.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And he came out of that magnificently because Ken was a good man to be with. Our mechanics, I mean my three mechanics were better at what they did than I was at what I did. And that's why I didn't have wheels fall off the car or mechanical failures.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I did have mechanical failures. The sport had been very good to me all the way along. And I had had good relationships. The Ford Motor Company was a fantastic relationship that I had. But so also was Dunlop for a while. So also was Goodyear. A very good relationship.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And Elf was a good company too, with Cantil. So I had all the best round me.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That's what made my life maybe go as long as it did before I stopped and at the same time


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That gave Helen a breath of air that she had never had before. And Paul had been told, because Joe Bonnier's, uh, family had lost their father. And then school bus, he came home one day and said, when is daddy going to die? Because these two boys told


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Paul, that all racing drivers die because their father had died.


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[Assistant] I think the Lotus had the edge in real speed.


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[Assistant] The Tyrrell had it in integrity of engineering. It was a better car, stronger car, fewer mechanical failures, and a car that I could trust impeccably to take it to the limit.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And I, by which time, that whatever skills I had, I had manicured, if you like, right up to the best I think that I could have personally done. And it matched the car. And I had good communications with the designer as well as Ken.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And communications are a very important part of it. How you...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And I had to do it because I'm dyslexic. It's a strange thing, but a dyslexic person can usually do things that other people can't in explaining color or movements or anything. And that made the car a better car to drive. In Francois,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Did everything I did was, if Jackie does it, I do it type of thing. Uh, the team was an immensely strong team and the mechanics hugely committed to, to, to excellence.