[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And they, all these guys started grabbing everything, bolting them onto their weapons, uhm, onto their vehicles. And I was just cleaning my weapon, and then they were like, hey, we got a couple pieces left over here, you want it? And we were like, might as well not even take it. It's just like, uh, maybe half a door or something. So basically, we just sat there, unarmored vehicle.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Tell you, going under those bridges, I was always looking up, you know, expecting to see an IED sitting right there to blow down.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And when you get people, you got people up top or cars parked off in the distance somewhere. Oh man, bad feeling, bad feeling. Just sit there and just grit your teeth out. Hopefully you just, hopefully you don't, they're, they're not accurate. Yeah.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] We actually broke down in Fallujah. Oh, that's fun. Right there on the highway. No shit, man. Cause I'd never heard of, uh, of Haditha. You know, we were down in Kuwait. And, and there were, everybody was talking about Fallujah. They had Fallujah's the nasty town, man. You know, that's where the big ball games at. You know, so I only knew


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I'm on the up gun, and we punch out of security, I got the radio up in my chin strap, and I'm circling around, I'm seeing people running around us, on the building setting up on us.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And I'm calling up and I was like, sit rep over. Sit rep over. You know, nobody's saying anything. I'm like, what the hell is going on? And we finally, after, it seemed like forever,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And the lieutenant gets on and he goes, it's okay, uh, when we punched out our security, before we hooked up the tow bars, somebody punched and tripped over a wire. He leached over and cut it. And it was an IED that was five feet from his damn door.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, that was very, very, very lucky, but we hooked up two bars and we were finally got back on the road and scary situation, but narrowly averted because nobody at that time.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Every convoy was getting hit, and we were one of the very few that didn't get hit. We were expecting death and destruction on that, you know. For sure. Freakin' uh, road warrior shit.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It's crazy how awesome it looks. You could, you know, imagine there's a rocket in there or something, you know, some evil guy carrying a ball, you know, a little cat and stuff.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, there with, uh, Lieutenant Colonel McCoy, uhm, he had a very aggressive policy. You know, he wanted to make everybody known in the area that we were in town. So, that we were doing that.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Some badasses. I was very lucky to have, uh, been assigned to them. Those guys are definitely professional.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, I said to them, alright, I'm going. Alright, pick up your orders on Tuesday. We're leaving on Wednesday. Pick up your gear Thursday and early, early, early in the night, like two, three o'clock in the morning on Fridays when we're picking up our weapons and we're getting on the plane.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It was that one, two, three go. And so the whole time when we got stuck with, uh, with three, four, it was language classes, uh, meeting some critical guys who was going to be in our team, uh, you know,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Rehearsing and then, then we're punching north. And it was literally one, two, three. We're now in Haditha.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, you know, from going from Springfield, Ohio to delivering junk mail, you know, in, uh, you know, February of, uh, of, uh, 2004 to walking the streets of Haditha and, uh, getting blown up.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Right. Because we were on an elevated dirt road.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Surrounded, no one says surrounded, but we were in a horseshoe of all these buildings around us. There's no reason why they shouldn't have been lighting us up.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But they, they didn't shoot. And, uh, and thank God they didn't because, you know, we had our QRF that was out, out in the desert and, uh, two Humvees, three Humvees maybe. Uhm, but it was a light patrol.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It was an IED, and a phone pole. It was the base of the phone pole. Uhm, a telephone pole. I remember walking up and seeing this trash.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I'm the new guy to this unit. I'm thinking, what are they doing? That doesn't look right, but I'm like, okay, well, these guys know what they're doing. I'm going to keep on growing.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You know? And then, what caught my attention was them letting that car go in there. And I'm thinking, there's only 18 guys in my patrol. If that thing's a car bomb, we're all dead.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So, I'm saying alright, roll with it. Go up, check out the vehicle, and then when I waved at the guy, boom. It goes, and I thought it went off.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You know, and uhm, and when I got blown up, my entire body went numb. I didn't feel anything.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, and when I was, when I said that, uhm, I didn't know if I was dead, I was looking at my arms and legs, seeing if they were still attached, I had no idea what was going on.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I'm thinking it was, because uhm, you know, he was just, he was at the wrong place at the wrong time. And when I, when I yelled out at, hey, you know, where's he at? And everybody's like, what are you talking about? The freaking car that just passed us.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Team, minus one, who was still back at the, at the dam. Uhm, all of us were hit. Uh, the only person that wasn't hit was, uh, at the time, Gunny Ballentine. He, he ended up retiring as Sergeant Major Ballentine. But he was about to walk over to my side of the road. He was waiting for that car to pass by.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And, and that IED, uh, that car stopped all the, the, the frag from hitting him.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Years later and I, the book is already out. I'm giving these presentations. He sends me a picture of, of a part of a radio and he goes, hey bus, you know what this is? I'm like, no, what's going on? What is that? And he goes,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I ended up, uhm, looked like an ice cream scoop was pulled out of my calf.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, outside of my calf, I still have a piece of shrapnel right next to my femoral artery on the same leg from there, which super lucky didn't go any deeper. But as big as that blast was, uhm,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I'm very, very fortunate to be here. Uh, the guys in the Ascent of the Patrol said that it blew up more than out. So uhm, the difference was that they buried it too deep. If it was 2005, I wouldn't be here. But 2004, you know, they were still trying to figure out how to use these against us. So, yeaah.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You know, being on those deployments and seeing what these guys actually do in war.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Because in peacetime, you're like, oh, okay, I'll get to hang out at Doc's place and, you know, who needs more IVs and that kind of stuff. But these guys, and you see them in doing their jobs there, it's just, it's awe-inspiring to see how they can be as calm and level-headed when chaos is just right there on their table.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Wasn't that long. Uhm, I stayed over at 29 Palms for


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] They just basically said, oh, you're wounded. Well, here's your barracks and here's a bag full of toiletries. And that's it. Just pour it in every Thursday. Keep the room clean. And so the rest of the time, we were just sitting around and drinking and


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So I was there with a can of Comet, cleaning my floors, making them white, drinking a six pack.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Barracks was over flooded with guys. Cause I came, when I was on my convalescent leave, that's when, uh, Vigilant Resolve happened. Uh, the first push into Fallujah. And, uh, the guys that I was with, 3-4 was, was with them, uh, 2, along with, uh, uh, 3-7 and 2-7 I believe.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And that's when, when I heard, came back, that's when we heard about Jason Dunham. Everybody was talking about Jason Dunham.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] We're thinking about going back over, uh, this time back to mortuary affairs. And, uh.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Put my hand up, said absolutely. If my guys are going, I'm gonna be there next though.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, at that point I was one of the most combat experienced guys for the Mortuary Fairs. So, uh, I mean, shoot, I was just right there. So I knew more of the lay of the land and how they're fighting. And so I figured if we got to go outside the wire, I can impart some things that I know that might help them.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It's a mission critical in the US. They are happy to take anybody who puts their hand up. So.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, you got guys who, I was one of the most, uhm, senior guys in this MLS. I was in it since 1993 when I first came in the unit. So, uhm, for years of not being utilized and trained, you know, properly to all of a sudden, we're at the forefront at,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Going and making stuff up on the fly because there was no, there was no, no, there was nothing to guide us.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] My heart will, you know, if she was to give me an ultimatum that I would take that.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I would say I'm going. Goodbye. Because uhm, I needed to be with my guys. I needed to be in that fight. So she understood that from the very onset of our relationship.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But my heart was over there. And if, if I didn't go, uh, and something was to happen and then she knew that


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Even though I wouldn't have, but she didn't want to be put in a place where I would have blamed her.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So it was easier to let me go over. And plus, I, I didn't like delivering mail to tell you the truth. I, I loved being in, uhm, and making a difference somewhere. Cause anybody can deliver mail. Cause when we show up to the next day,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You're still gonna have a mountain of mail to deliver. But over there, I felt like we were making a difference. That we were doing things that were important. And my lessons that I was given to the troops and shown them how to patrol, how to...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You know, uh, how we do things in certain situations, it mattered. And I was, I was grooming and mentoring.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Leaders to take my role, because I knew I wasn't going to be in this forever, and I, and now under the mission, it was still going to continue. So, I said, yep, send me back over.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Right outside of Ramadi, it was a really, really nasty area. Uh, little did I know when I got assigned to that, that place, that, that was the busiest area. And, uh, yeah, we, that, that was just one among many, many stories that, you know, it was like that almost every day.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] They were taking him straight out of a cardboard box and placing him on through the transfer cases and tied a white cord around it and it was not anybody's fault. It was just the way it's always been done.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, and I, when I was with 3-4, I had found out that a bunch of guys that I had met had gotten killed in Fallujah.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, one in particular was, uh, First Lieutenant Oscar Jimenez. And, uh,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And I didn't really know him, besides him chewing me out once. I had no idea he was a lieutenant. He was walking around without his blouse on. And then we got called to a meeting. And I was trying to get in, he was trying to get out.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He told me to gangway, and I'm like, who the hell are you? And I found out who he was, you know? But, uh, when I was on convalescent leave, the day I left, to come back to 29 Palms, I noticed that the USA Today had a mural of everybody who got killed.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And he, his picture was pretty much dead center on that.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Going forward, now I was in charge of the very building that their remains went through. And I had a connection to


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That sacrifice because I knew several guys that went through and it kind of hurt to think that


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] If that is the flag that gets handed to the families, it needs to be treated with the utmost respect. It needs to be treated


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] As something that, that is befitting of a hero because they sacrificed their lives.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] For us, the rest of us, not only that sacrifice, but I wanted to honor the sacrifice that their families were soon to make. Because it's them that continue to live without that


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Family member, you know. Uhm, these flags, uh, it's not just another piece of cloth that, it's something that these hands, it's handed down from generation to generation to generation. It's something that people put up on their mantles. It needs to be treated with the utmost respect. So uhm,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] After I saw what had happened, you know, with, with, uh,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] U.S. Army Major, I started going down to the PX and I bought one can of starch and I bought their only iron and only ironing board. You're not supposed to use starch in combat.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You know, uhm, so, you know, we was trying to look good for the enemy. So I took it back. Next day, there's two cans. Next day, there's four cans. You know, it's kept on doubling up.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And, uh, one day the lady said, hey, uh, what are you doing with all the starch you're hitting here? I'm at the same time almost every day. I said, ma'am, I'm ironing and starching every American flag before we put them on the transfer cases.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] We even came up with our own fold, uh, because before the flag was in danger of touching the ground. And I wanted to treat them with the utmost respect, so we tied the white cord first, tucked it in on the sides, and then it was out of the way for the honor guard, and it stuck.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It, it stayed, uhm, and eventually got adopted by other branches.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And so, back in 2009, I'm back in Ohio, and I get a phone call from, uh, Staff Sergeant Kenley. And, uh, he's there in D.C. and he goes, hey bus, uh,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Brigadier General so-and-so was there at, uh, at Rammstein and he was watching a ramp ceremony and


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Him and his entourage and the first one comes off and it's done the old style.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The second one comes off and has done the old style. And he goes, the third one comes off and has done your style. And he goes, dammit, I know Marines did that.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I'm gonna find out who, and I'm gonna find out, uhm, and let them know, let them know what it means to me and my entourage. So he called up Chief Warrantor for, uh, ITIS, uh, in DC, and she said, uh, yes sir, we call it the Bustler Method.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Bustler started that back in 2005. We adopted it. We now made it that everybody that we handle and the Marines handle, we do it this way. He goes from now on until the end of the Marine Corps when the country no longer needs a Marine Corps.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] We are going to do it this way. Anybody gets killed in combat or dies overseas, they're going to come home this way. So it was adopted. First it was the Army, then the Navy, and now the Air Force. So if you watch the guys getting loaded from Benghazi,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, that's, that's my ceremony, uhm, that's my flag. The guys ramp ceremonies nowadays, uhm, it's done that way. Uhm, the guys coming home from North Korea, being repatriated from Tarawa, uhm, it's done that way. So it was my little 15 minutes of fame, you know, my little, you know, my little...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The ultimate sacrifice every day and it really sticks with you.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] With sledgehammers. We had never seen anything like this. Ever. As far as I knew, uhm, nobody had ever seen anything like it before. Nobody had ever shared that with us. So we're looking at this stuff, a melted vehicle. World War II manuals?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You're talking about all steel vehicles. If it blows up, it's in pieces. But this is smelted totally casing things, people, you know.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And we literally were swinging and breaking things with a sledgehammer and they made, they fabricated tools for us to go out there and try to pry the layers apart.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And we literally took what was left and made them into, you know, separated them into piles. And there had to have been millions of pieces, millions of pieces that we went through. Nobody ever prepared us for that.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, this, we had never seen anything else like it before. Uhm, most of the recoveries, uhm, are, are gonna be, were,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Similar situations, but most of the remains that we would handle were coming to us. Only if the unit was engaged and couldn't break away or the scene was too catastrophic, uhm, they would send us out. And this was a scene that they had no idea how to determine what was what.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And that's, and I was expecting, okay, well, why can't you guys recover? You know, when you're telling us over the phone and then when we showed up, it was, uh, you totally understood from what a gigantic.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Armor personnel carrier to all of a sudden being, you know, maybe chest high. Only thing that is as high as its tracks. Everything else was gone.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Right, it was the driver and the VC and then he had two guys in the back. We were still looking, the driver, the VC, two guys in the back were still looking for the gunner.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] We had no idea because when we first got the word that we were looking for three, we're looking for three remains. So we fly out there, we find three remains. What you're looking for and what counts to you as an angel is not your head or your arms, it's your torso. So we find the remnants of three torsos and we go back.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And two weeks later, we get a phone call that none of the DNA is matching up to their gunner.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That's impossible. Out of all those millions of remains, pieces, fragments, there's nothing coming back for your gunner. So we go out there again and there's, look again, break it apart further, nothing. And we go out there maybe a total of four or five times.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And uhm, five weeks later, they ended up finding.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, the person. And at the very end of this long mystery, uhm, it turned out that what we thought was R3 was uhm, actually a part of uhm, a guy that recovered on the scene when it did an initial explosion. Uhm, they said that his front half blew up, but his back half fell back in.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And got encased in metal. So we were both right. That they treated the one out there as a torso, as an angel. And we did too. And what had happened to the gunner was the IED breached right behind where he sat.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And when the vehicle melted, it carried the bones out underneath the vehicle and it got encased under 12 inches of slag metal underneath the vehicle. And it's the first time we've ever, ever seen anything like that. You know, we hit that piece.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Sledgehammers try to break it and stuff, uhm, and it wouldn't come apart, but, you know, all with logic looking square in the face that said, hey, we found three, we were breaking, you know, we can't find any more remains.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So what had happened was they decided that they were going to send this, uh, the rest of this vehicle back to the states and look through it by a mass spectrometer and try to find any voids. And when they were lifting it up,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] When they lifted that up, it broke in pieces and all the bones were falling out.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But I remember, uhm, you know, right before I was called the end of the initial recovery and I didn't feel right about it.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, and I kept on feeling like I needed to be drawn to this blast hole. Even though logically they looked for three, I found three, that kind of thing. But it felt like it wasn't finished. And...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] After the five weeks of recovery, you know, I think back at maybe it was his spirit letting me know that here this is where I am. Don't quit, uhm, don't quit, you know, now. But, uhm,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I know it's not my fault or anything, but I still blame myself, uh, for putting his family through, you know, five weeks of hell.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Just because, you know, I should have listened to my gut feeling. But, you know.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It is a nightmare being on my end. Uhm, and I'm thinking all of the things that could have happened.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Like, uhm, did his remains get ejected? Were we waiting for a video to show up with a captured set of remains? Were they going to booby trap his remains and for us to go out there and find them?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And try to get more of us? Are they gonna ransom it? Uhm, you know, what are they gonna do? And, and this, all these different scenarios are popping up. And, and all of them were viable. But,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] We had no idea. It's like he just disappeared.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You know, nobody ever thought that a person could literally melt through a vehicle and what we were looking at.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] What had happened was, is that uhm, we've, we got word that an incident happened, so they were playing this, alright, we're gonna bring it, the vehicle back to, to uh, TQ. We're not.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You know, they kept on going back and forth, and so my team is ready to do a, you know, for just like how we did in Ramadi, the other one.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, for them to bring the vehicle to us on a low boy and for us to work.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So we were up the whole night prior working on other remains.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And, you know, getting those guys going home. Then all of a sudden, we're standing a team up. We're gonna go out. And then we're like, okay, we are going out. After many, many hours of this, back and forth.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So we were exhausted, you know, 30 plus hours of being awake.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And we show up to the scene and we show up to this, you know, another incident that claimed seven.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] They tried, uh, they were putting it on in 88, but they had seven guys and the scene was too catastrophic. They got hit right next to a, uh,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] A big open field that had, uh, like wheat or something growing on it. So they were afraid that remains were out there or they didn't know if remains were under it. And plus when they have that much fire in this vehicle and the tool missiles are going off in the back of it and it's melting, that regular, you know, people can't tell what is what. So what they think is a piece of plastic, silicon, could actually be bone.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And so they wanted people who were experienced to know what, what is what and be able to capture everything that we could. And, uh, but that scene was literally catastrophic. It was the biggest IED creator I've ever seen.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The vehicle was actually going this way and the IED went off and it ended up going that way.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It was pointed in the total opposite direction of the way it was traveling.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The turret was popped off of it and it was open. I mean, literally you can walk in from one end to the other end with your arms straight out and not touch a thing. It was totally wide open, just like the other one was. And, you know, and there were just remains.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You know, pretty much everywhere. It was just a bad scene.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You know, they wanted to, uh, put the remains on top of the vehicles and, uh, and I shot that down.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And I wasn't going to give the satisfaction to the bad guys to let them use that as a recruiting tool.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That, you know, they just messed up these guys and I didn't want them to know how, you know, how bad they hurt these guys. So I said, no, no, we're not doing it. You know, we'll find another way. So we chose another way.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Welcome sight to see because we had lost three Bradleys in three weeks and, uh, and you know, and now we're taking care of those, those guys and getting them home. And the whole time I'm thinking we're gonna get lit up too. And, uh,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, when we saw it, I could look at a little periscope thing, you know, the bulletproof glass and see, oh wow, they're locking this city down. That's awesome.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] What, how we saw it from our end. That we weren't trying to not do our jobs. That we were doing everything humanly possible.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] To get him home, and we just were exhausted.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] All of our means to do it. We had no idea. Uhm, until that very last day, then, and five weeks later we found him.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It was up the whole night before with Richardson going through their after action reports. And they were catching up on old days, you know. It was his own platoon sergeant.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And, uh, yeah, Kenley knew, uh, Doug's wife. Uhm, you know, he knew, he would spend all this whole time together.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And didn't even know that each other, the two of them were on the same base. And then we were already associated with the EOD guys. They were our buddies. They would come over and hang out with us. We'd go to their place.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And until, you know, after Angus got killed and they hooked up and then, uhm, yeaah, once I realized who it was.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] If any, if any of my buddies got killed over there, I would want a friend to come and tell me. And not just anybody, you know.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Hey, but you know, your, your, your buddy's dead. Where, you know, I wanted to be there for him and to be there to support him. And, um, cause I knew it was going to be a huge deal. Um, our job isn't a


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Um, that morning and since he stayed up the whole night before they just let him sleep.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He's a hell of a guy. He was in Fallujah, Phantom Fury, and he worked at the potato factory there where all the remains were coming in. He did all the search recoveries going in there, pulling out all the dead insurgents, you know, and this is when EOD could not.


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[Assistant] Uh, you know, fulfill all their commitments and stuff. So, they were out there with, uh,


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[Assistant] Uh, hair pins and put them in grenades on these, on, on their suicide vests to, to, you know, make them where they won't blow up. And then...


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[Assistant] Take care. And stuff. And then, you know, his second tour is with us. I mean, the guy is one of the best. And that chapter is the strongest man among us. And he definitely was.


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[Assistant] Get off of active duty, go back to your regular lives. There was, there was nothing, no gradual time, you know. Uhm, I let them know that, uh, our first sergeant, that I wasn't ready yet, you know. And he goes, I don't care. By the end of the day, you're off my books. So, I went back to delivering mail.


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[Assistant] And then I started having all these, uh, problems with PTSD. Felt like I was always on patrol. My mind would click off. I would still walk for blocks.


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[Assistant] I wasn't sleeping, everything that I repressed over there in combat, all the remains that we had taken care of, I still dream about it and stuff.


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[Assistant] And it took over my life. I ended up, uh, leaving the, the post office.


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[Assistant] Got raided at 100% permanent and total with the VA. And, uh, went to a big, deep depression.


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[Assistant] I ended up, uh, coping with everything by drinking seven days a week because that was the only way I knew how to get some sleep. And, uh, I got lucky because I met the, I met people who actually cared and roped me in.


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[Assistant] He was over at, uh, at the VA, just retired out of the Air Force, and he was there in Iraq, uh, with the mental health assessment teams. So now I finally met somebody that I didn't have to explain what an IED was, cause he, he traveled the same roads. So he helped me through, uhm, you know, it could be three o'clock in the morning and I can call him, it didn't matter.


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[Assistant] But, what really also helped me is, uh, was a corpsman from Vietnam, did two tours over in Vietnam. And over at the VFW, one night we were sitting there,


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[Assistant] Drinking and stuff, and we used to have all these big philosoph, you know, philosophical conversations. And he goes, you know what? I know what you need. I'm like, what? And he goes, you need to start writing.


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[Assistant] I'm good, man. I'm not a writer. I barely passed high school English. So he goes, no, that's what helped me when I was, when I came back from Vietnam. So a period of time goes by and I ended up picking it up and said, why not? I woke up from a nightmare and said, I am not doing anything else. Why not?


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[Assistant] So what I did is I started writing down the stories and my very first one was Angus.


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[Assistant] I would say my goodbyes, I would have my little toast to them, and at the very end I would burn it in a bonfire. And...


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[Assistant] And symbolically, I gained power over that, but was an immense weight.


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[Assistant] Upon my shoulders now had a numerical value.


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[Assistant] That experience now was worth 20,000 words.


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[Assistant] I could change things around and change the perspectives and stuff, but it gave me a chance to pull out that.


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[Assistant] Trauma and pull it out and instead of it being a big jumble, I pulled it out and been able to diagnose it and I started writing and I would take those, uh, those stories into my therapist and years later, uh, my wife suggested why not try to publish it.


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[Assistant] It is what, what it is now. It's, uh, the second book to have ever been written about this subject, uh, about mortuary affairs. Uh, but the first one that ever dives into, you know,


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[Assistant] It connects, it connects generation kill to taking chance. That whole blank area in there. And uhm, it has opened a lot of doors for myself as far as being able to overcome what I thought.


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[Assistant] My, uh, I have the answers that a lot of families, Gold Star families want to know. They want to know if, how was their son or daughter taken care of.


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[Assistant] When they lost their lives and, and my book tells that, that they were surrounded by the ones that they loved and who loved them. And I wanted them to know that the very last hands to touch them in Iraq were carrying hands. We, we were the ones willing to die to make sure that they got home. So yeaah, this book is,


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[Assistant] A collection of stories, it's now, you know, providing, uh,


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[Assistant] If I was able to sit there and write, maybe somebody else can figure out that they can get there, sit there and write and be able to find peace after.


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[Assistant] All of this war and multiple deployments and stuff, so.


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[Assistant] He, we would sit down and we would just say, how are you doing? And...


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[Assistant] I would say, hey, I'm having a really rough time, I haven't slept in three days, uhm, you know, every time I close my eyes, I would think about this situation, that kind of thing, and fighting with the wife again, and I can't connect with my kids, and I feel like that, uhm, you know, my kids are afraid of me, and then we just go off into, uhm,


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[Assistant] From there, he would talk about whatever situations that would have happened. He had a really good way of easing into over there and how they connected.


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[Assistant] I'd have, I still do have, uh, uh, food aversions, just because I don't...


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[Assistant] Sometimes the food reminds me of the stuff that would happen over there. Uhm, and, and, and so we would talk about that situation.


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[Assistant] And work through those. When I first started going there, it was seven days a week. Eventually, now it's going to one day.


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[Assistant] Whenever I need to talk to him. But I, I know that if I was to give him a call three in the morning, he's always gonna be there. And I think that's what really is, is the key behind, uhm, other people.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] They need to have that family around them of support that, you know, they had a wife that she never gave up on me. She always, uhm, was there, uh, to, to make sure I was taking my meds and make sure that


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, I had somebody to talk to, if I needed to talk to, uhm, one of the,


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[Assistant] She would call up one of the Marines, uh, Bedlack. He would come over and, and I needed somebody to talk to right there who was there. And so, I think it takes more than one person to help people get back in their minds.


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[Assistant] holding me down and something I would try to avoid thinking about now it's something that I was focused on. Something that, uhm,


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[Assistant] It wasn't, uh, that way. It was something that means something because of this moment. Uhm, I, I was talking about Angus and now I'm bringing in this.


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[Assistant] Chapter into to Bill and he would say, okay, let's go over what had happened. And we would work on that. And then I would burn that.


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[Assistant] After I was done with that story, I would rewrite it all over again.


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[Assistant] Going over and over and over and over that same stuff. But I think also what really helped me is going on some of these veteran trips to let me know and connect with other people.


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[Assistant] Uh, who, who may have different experiences than I did, different kind of traumas. But we built a little, little, uh, network of, of people. And I finally realized I wasn't alone. You know, at the, at the very beginning, I felt that I was alone.


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[Assistant] That everybody else is still deploying and here I was and I was the broken one. And I was ashamed of that.


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[Assistant] And, and, and then after all of those years, now I don't look at it as I was broken. I looked at it that I was, I just, I was injured. I, you know, I can be put back together. I can heal, but you have to be patient.


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[Assistant] It's not just flipping the lights and everything will be okay like I expected it in the very beginning.


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[Assistant] It's something you have to work on. And so after all these years of, after I published it now, I'm back in school, becoming an electrical lineman. Something when I thought my life was over and I'll never be, uh,


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[Assistant] You know that husband, that father, that man.


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[Assistant] And now I am reinventing myself.


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[Assistant] It's through, you know, people who love me and, you know, and people that I've met and they've always been there for me and, uh, and going through the book and pulling out that jumble of, of experiences and pulling it out like a thread and, and being able to work on that. And, uh, it has really opened up my future. Um, yeaah, it's very, very, very fortunate.


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[Assistant] I needed that break. I needed to focus on me. I looked at going to therapy as my job. My full time job.


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[Assistant] Living again, not just being trapped inside my own four walls. So uhm.


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[Assistant] Through the book and through therapy and the end of the book, I'm thanking all the people that really


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] One of those days I would drive over to his place and then he would drive.


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[Assistant] I, I could talk, you know, if you want to talk about it. You know, I didn't see anything that's like you saw, but I'm, I'm always here. And so, when I started writing was after he passed, about a year after he passed.


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[Assistant] And it's not just me, it's a whole bunch of other people who sacrificed their lives to, to ensure this. They dedicated their lives to this, uhm, to this mission. And, and I'm, I'm, thank you for, for allowing me to, to


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Be that voice for them as well, because throughout history it's always been unsung heroes that dedicate their lives to make sure these guys get home.


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[Assistant] Um, Paul Slade out there in South Africa, you know, thank you for all the support.


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[Assistant] That, uh, and reaching out and, and getting me out here and, and, uh, keeping up with me at home. And, uh, I'd just like to let everybody know that you can get this book, No Tougher Duty, No Greater Honor on Amazon, on Kindle, and also on Audible as well.


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[Assistant] I thank you for having me. It means a lot to me to be able to sit here at this table knowing the people who sat here before me.


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[Assistant] I mean people that I've always idolized and just find inspiration behind their stories. And I'm very, I'm humbly honored to sit here. I also wanted to thank


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[Assistant] Come a very, very long way from who I was when I came home and if it wasn't for their support, uhm, who knows.


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[Assistant] This is Jocko Podcast number 210 with Echo Charles and me, Jocko Willink.


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[Assistant] Good evening Echo. Good evening. And also joining us tonight is Dave Burke.


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[Assistant] Good evening, Dave. Good evening. And the last time that Dave was on, we discussed Marine Corps doctrinal publication.


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[Assistant] Three tack one tactics which starts with a line that reads


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[Assistant] This publication is about winning in combat.


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[Assistant] And it definitely is an outstanding manual.


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[Assistant] And there are other doctrinal publications from the Marine Corps.


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[Assistant] On operations and on strategy and on campaigning and there's manuals on intelligence and expeditionary operations and logistics and planning and command and control.


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[Assistant] They got manuals for everything. There's even a Marine Corps warfighting publication of three tac 15.1 called Machine Guns and Machine Gun Gunnery.


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[Assistant] This machine gun supports both the offense and defense. It provides the heavy volume of close, accurate and continuous fire support necessary to suppress and destroy enemy fortifications, vehicles and personnel in support of an attack.


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[Assistant] Machine guns and machine gun gunnery. Is there a title of any book in the world that has a gun in it more times? I don't know of any.


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[Assistant] Firing from the bipod. When firing from the bipod, the rear sight is raised. Assume a prone position behind the gun with the right shoulder into the weapon. The right hand grasps the pistol grip and manipulates the trigger.


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[Assistant] Place the left hand on the comb of the stock palm down with the cheek resting lightly against the cover and or the left hand. Both hands exert a firm steady pressure to the rear during aiming and firing.


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[Assistant] Unlike the tripod, the bipod mount is relatively unstable. Elbows and upper torso may move. A good sight picture must be regained before firing each burst.


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[Assistant] So we're getting details. There's no, there's not much room for interpretation.


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[Assistant] We're getting the instruction that we need. And by the way, the Army also has a manual for machine gunners.


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[Assistant] The FM3 Tac 22.68 crew-served machine gun. Which doesn't actually cover the .50 cal.


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[Assistant] It's got another manual for that. It doesn't cover the Mod Deuce, but it's still 430 pages long.


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[Assistant] So they are not playing around. And by the way, we salute all the machine gunners out there. For what you do. Laying down that suppressive fire.


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[Assistant] And we understand that manuals get granular and show us how to do a specific job.


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[Assistant] Now, the leader, the, the military does have leadership manuals as well, and we've covered a bunch of them, and they are solid in explaining some of the principles of leadership, but I always wanted something that was more granular.


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[Assistant] More detailed, more specific for leadership. Something that explained the actual strategies and tactics to be used when leading people. The little maneuvers that you make up and down the chain of command. And so, so I wrote a book.


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[Assistant] And it is released January 14th, 2020 and I wanted to review it for you all right as it comes out to highlight what the book is, how you can use it, and what the book


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[Assistant] We'll do for you as a leader and since I work with Dave all the time, first in the Battle of Ramadi and now at Echelon Front and since he's been on the podcast multiple times, and since he listens to the podcasts,


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[Assistant] And since he was the first person that I gave this book to to read, I figured it made sense to have him on here so he could help me introduce the book to the world. So Dave, thanks for coming on man.


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[Assistant] Thoughts on the page like this this this this and then I started to formulate them into categories and eventually Turned them into this so leadership strategy and tactics We're gonna go to the book


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[Assistant] And I kinda had to do a little bit of an explanation here in the beginning of the book.


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[Assistant] Just to explain sort of what's going on here, who I am, what...


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[Assistant] Well, it goes like this. Who am I to try and teach leaders how to lead?


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[Assistant] Where did I learn leadership? Much of my leadership education was luck.


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[Assistant] I say luck because there were a few fortunate coincidences that gave me the right frame of mind, the right teachers, and the right opportunities to learn. One of the ways I was lucky


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[Assistant] And that made me focus on leadership was the fact that I wasn't really that naturally talented at anything in particular.


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[Assistant] As a little kid, I wasn't the fastest or strongest or smartest. I was never great at shooting a basketball, kicking a soccer ball or throwing a baseball. I didn't win any races or have a shelf of trophies and ribbons from sports. My report card was never exceptional either. I might've done well in a class if I was interested, but I usually wasn't. And my grades reflected that. I was average across the board. I'm coming out strong.


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[Assistant] And this is where it kinda ties in. So even from a young age, I needed to get others with more talent and more skill.


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[Assistant] By getting people to work together to support one another as we moved toward a common mission. Now maybe that mission


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[Assistant] When I was, when it was time to build a fort, when it was time to organize an assault on some other group, I'd be like, alright, hey, this is what we need to do.


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[Assistant] And that's because I knew that little Johnny could run faster than me. I knew that Billy could scale that wall better than I could. But I could take a step back and say, okay, this is how we should do it. This would be the best way to build this sport. This is what we need to do. So.


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[Assistant] Whatever the task was, I generally found myself giving direction to people who were stronger, faster, or otherwise more capable than I was. That seemed to be where I could help the most and the one area in which I could perform with a higher level of competency. I also always had a rebellious streak.


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[Assistant] Which I think all, I think everyone has. I think, well, I shouldn't say that. I think many people, cause, how much of a rebellious streak did Kyle Carpenter have?


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[Assistant] Like he didn't have much of a rebellious streak. I mean, he had enough to join the Marine Corps, but when you listen to him, he's like, yeah, he wasn't, he wasn't looking to rebel. He was just, just on the path from day one. Kind of got it. So maybe it's not every kid, but.


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[Assistant] Me, yeaah, I had a little rebellious streak and maybe it was another way for me to leave a mark. I wouldn't conform to the way other kids acted. I acted differently. Listened to hardcore and heavy metal music and had a hardcore attitude about things. That attitude set me apart from the pack.


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[Assistant] Looking in from the outside, I garnered a better understanding of the people I was watching. I saw their emotions, their clicks, and their drama unfold from a detached position I learned.


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[Assistant] So, so that's an interesting point too, that I thought about while I was putting this together. I remember. Okay, so you know,


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[Assistant] You got the kids, uh, movie reference, Echo Charles, Breakfast Club. Yes sir. So you got the stereotypical kids, right? The jock.


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[Assistant] John Bender. The, the preppy or the, the popular girl. Yep. The nerd. Princess, we'll say. The nerd. Yep. And then, what was the black haired girl considered?


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[Assistant] Artsy, artsy, right? Give me artsy. Artsy girl?


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[Assistant] At my school, like yeaah, we had all those kids, right? And I really wasn't in any of those groups.


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[Assistant] You know what I'm saying? So, I kind of had, I kind of had friends in each one of those groups, which is kind of weird in its own right. I was friends with some of the popular kids, I was friends with some of the burnouts, I was friends with some of the metalheads, I was friends with some of the prep. Like I was kind of friends, had a couple friends, but I wasn't really


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[Assistant] Considered to be in any of those groups, which meant I was actually watching them.


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[Assistant] You know, even from a young age, I was going, oh yeaah, I see how.


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[Assistant] Which is different, but it allowed me to kinda like look and learn.


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[Assistant] Yeah, well yeah, I mean his mom was definitely, uh, against it, we'll say.


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[Assistant] And, and yet, but that's a cool thing about Kyle, is like he...


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[Assistant] He talked them through it, you know? He eventually was like good enough to be like, hey, this is what I really want to do. And he, remember, he went to, he went to college to kind of say, okay, I'll, let me try college. And then, you know, he, he moved in that direction. I actually, I joined the Navy. I didn't even tell my parents. I just like joined.


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[Assistant] I told, actually, and I have, I noticed when I wrote this, I was like, um, reading a little section, I said like, oh, I was talking to my dad, and


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[Assistant] Gonna go to jail or just be an idiot for the rest of my life. Uh, so.


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[Assistant] Yeah, it's interesting how as I reflect back, just being on the outside.


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[Assistant] Where I was from, what my parents did, or anything else about my history. They shaved my head, gave me a uniform, and told me what I needed to do to be successful. Make your bed like this, fold your underwear like that, polish your boondockers until they look like mirrors. If you could follow the rules and do what you were told to do, you'd be put in a leadership position.


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[Assistant] I did follow the rules, and I did what I was told to do, and it paid off, and I was made a squad leader in bootcamp. What does that mean, tactically? Nothing. But it meant a lot to me at the time.


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[Assistant] I mean think about it, a squad leader in, in Navy bootcamp. That...


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[Assistant] And so, but yea, you needed a squad leader, so I probably had, I dunno, 15 people in my squad.


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[Assistant] And there was another guy who was from New England, and he was a wrestler, and he was gonna be a seal, and he ended up being a seal, and he's an awesome guy.


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[Assistant] But he ended up being the master at arms because he had been to college and he, you know, so he was, and then our, our, the guy that was the


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[Assistant] Turned down his commission or something like that. So he did ROTC for four years. The Navy paid for four years of college and he said, I don't want to get a commission. And they said, cool, you're going to be an enlisted guy for two years. And that's what he did, which, which is a really


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[Assistant] Or he was ready to get his commission. Now, who knows? Cause everyone in bootcamp lies to each other. When it comes to like, you know, you meet all these guys that were just there. I was just about to be, you know, got, I just got drafted by whatever the Miami dolphins, but I really wanted to serve. So I enlisted in the Navy. You're looking at that guy thinking, wow,


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[Assistant] What position were you gonna play at 117 pounds? But yea, so I'm not sure if my RCPO was actually


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[Assistant] Like maybe he got in trouble, right? You go to four years of college, you're supposed to get your commission and you get a DUI or something, then they're like, Hey, you're not getting a commission, but you do owe us two years of enlistment. So he was there. He was a squared away guy. Never. I don't remember what happened to him, but the master at arms who was a total, total stud, great guy, awesome wrestler, wrestler in college. And he was the master at arms. And then I,


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[Assistant] Buds was the same way for me. I still wasn't great at any particular skill. Not the best runner or swimmer. Not great at the obstacle course. But I could do what I was told. I could play the game.


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[Assistant] And I wasn't going to quit. Some people say that everyone thinks about quitting during buds. I never did, not for a second. That thought never crossed my mind. Hell week, a five day block of continuous physical training with almost no sleep whatsoever.


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[Assistant] And which causes the highest number of people to quit was actually relaxing for me. Because during Hell Week, nothing is timed.


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[Assistant] During all other facets of BUDS, students are constantly on the clock. Timed runs, swims, and obstacle course evolutions take place every day. If you miss the time and fail one of them, you are on the bubble. And if you fail again, you're out. That's what it was when I went through. It was stressful.


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[Assistant] But during Hell Week, nothing was timed. You just had to keep going. You just had to not quit. And for me, that was the easy part. Pretty straightforward.


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[Assistant] That's a good skill to have. It's like the other thing, genetically I don't have to sleep a lot.


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[Assistant] And that is the, that was, I picked the perfect career for that. Like, I'm saying I wasn't good at anything, which is true. Not the best runner, middle of the pack runner, middle of the pack swimmer, middle of the pack on the obstacle course.


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[Assistant] But, and, and I didn't really think about the not sleeping thing, but that is something that I had, and I didn't really realize it at that time. But when I got done with Hell Week, I remember my roommates were, were beat up, you know, and tired.


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[Assistant] Was fired up, as all of us were, who were checking into that sacred place of war heroes and legends. The Master Chief of the Command, the highest ranking enlisted seal at Team One welcomed us aboard. No one here cares that you made it through Buds. We all did. It doesn't mean anything here. You have to prove yourselves and earn your Trident.


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[Assistant] So keep your mouth shut, your ears open and don't forget anything and be on time. Any questions?


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[Assistant] The Trident was the gold insignia worn on the uniform which indicates you're a SEAL to receive our Tridents. We had to go through a six month probationary period and then go through a written and oral review board with the senior enlisted personnel of the team. We were all nervous about that and the Master Chief provided no comfort whatsoever.


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[Assistant] In the early 90s, and again I'm skipping through chunks of the book just to kind of get to the meat. In the early 90s when I got to SEAL Team 1, the training progression was different from how it is now. Back then, once on board a team, you were eventually assigned to a SEAL platoon.


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[Assistant] This is where you would actually learn to be a seal. Up until that point, the training wasn't tactical and buds, you don't learn very much about the actual job of being a seal. You learn how to be cold, wet, and tired, and miserable. And not to complain about any of it.


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[Assistant] But you don't learn any of the job skills that make you into a professional operator. Those skills were taught to you once you were in a seal platoon.


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[Assistant] There you run through a fire hose. There was so much knowledge needed, so many skills to develop, so many tactics to understand, you felt as if you would never know it all.


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[Assistant] But like the rest of the new guys, I listened and learned every single day. In my first three platoons, I learned a few key concepts that stuck with me for the rest of my career.


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[Assistant] And they were also the base upon which I built most of the principles I ended up teaching to the rest of the SEAL teams and eventually to companies, businesses, and organizations around the globe. These are examples of the lucky moments I referred to earlier.


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[Assistant] I was in the right place at the right time with the right frame of mind to learn what I did. Then I was lucky enough to have other experiences to overlay what I had learned.


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[Assistant] And slowly, subconsciously begin to formulate a system of leadership that I was then lucky enough to apply on one of the most challenging battlefields in the world, the Battle of Ramadi in the summer of 2006. When I returned from that deployment,


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[Assistant] I took over the training for the West Coast Seal teams where I formalized, codified, and transcribed what I had learned, but the roots of everything I eventually wrote down originated in a very non-traditional, but highly effective learning environment.


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[Assistant] The Seal Platoon. Yeah, so, uh, that's the opening, kind of, a little, a little, uh, what is it, an excerpts of the opening of the book, just to kind of, if people have no idea who I am, hey, this is who I am.


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[Assistant] The, I got asked this the other day, I was getting interviewed or something, and, and I've been asked it before.


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[Assistant] And it's a similar kind of concept, right? The question was like, what was the moment where this all kinda came together? And,


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[Assistant] You don't have the right frame of mind, right? You don't have the right frame of mind to say, oh, this is what, this is what's happening right now. But you can look back, that's what I'm doing now, is, you know, writing that forward, looking back at my life, saying, where, how did I, where did I come to these conclusions? Cause at some point, I definitely did. At some point, I recognized these things.


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[Assistant] But it was a slow, I shouldn't say that, at some point, over time, I got to a point. I arrived at a point. Now that is true. When, when I


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[Assistant] And you've heard me tell the story of taking over the training for the west coast steel teams and I went out on that training operation. It was a total disaster. And I went back to my barracks room that night and wrote down the four laws of combat. That's, that's it right there. Like that was what happened. But,


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[Assistant] When I wrote down the four laws of combat for the first time, I wasn't trying to figure them out. I wasn't trying to see what they were.


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[Assistant] I knew what they were and I just had to write them down. I had learned them over and over again from a bunch of different people in a bunch of different ways and so now it was okay.


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[Assistant] Cool. How can I explain these to the rest of these guys that are going to be coming through this training? Where they can take them and implement them quickly.


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[Assistant] So, there's, unfortunately, there's no point now. My curiosity is...


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[Assistant] When someone gets fed this information now, right? When someone that's at the basic school in the Marine Corps. Yeah.


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[Assistant] Listsens to the podcast that we did, that series of podcasts, and goes, is that, do they get just a, uh,


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[Assistant] A hyper move forward because I look at it and think, man, if I would have had this podcast when I was younger, I'd have been a million times in a better position. Is that, do people get a hyper boost do you think?


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[Assistant] You know, even Jason Gardner at some point was saying, I think it was the one who was on the podcast, he was saying like, hey,


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[Assistant] He started adjusting, he was a master chief, and he was adjusting his game, he was listening to the podcast, and he was like, yep, here's what's going on, here's what's going on, he's like, he, and so his mind was open enough, you know what reminds me, I was, uh, I don't know what age I was.


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[Assistant] But I wanted to get a new bike and I was at that age where, you know, I grew up in a small town and if you were going to ride somewhere, it was a, you know, it was, it was work, right? It wasn't, it wasn't, it was more than a three minute bike ride, you know?


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[Assistant] And I think I had saved up whatever, 70 bucks or something, and I asked my dad, hey, I really need a new bike, can you, can you, can we split the cost or whatever.


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[Assistant] And he says, okay, you know, so cool, cause what does that mean for him? It means he doesn't have to worry about driving around. It means basically, I'll leave him alone.


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[Assistant] So I go and you know, we go to the bike store and I go to get the bike and I'm gonna get a BMX bike and I'm at that age where


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[Assistant] I could get a 10 speed. So that, it was that point, like I'd never even had speeds before, but all of a sudden I'm old enough, so I was probably 12 or something. Where I could get a 10 speed. You know, with the curved down handlebars.


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[Assistant] And my dad's thinking, hey, you know, you gotta bike three, four, six miles, five miles, whatever. You're going to want this 10 speed. And of course I'm like, no, I want this BMX bike. So.


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[Assistant] We end up, he ends up, I mean, you can see, looking back at the conversation, he's just looking at me, thinking to himself, you're an idiot, you're gonna want this bike. And I said, no, I definitely want this BMX bike, so I'm gonna go off road or whatever.


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[Assistant] And sure enough, we get the, we get the BMX bike, and you know, two days later, after my fourth, you know, six mile bike ride into town,


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[Assistant] Now, what I hope is, like, when you give me that feedback about the basic school, like, what I hope is, you go, oh, okay. Yeah, I, I, there's, there's some...


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[Assistant] Lieutenants going through and I get the same thing guys in the teams right now the young jails and the teams I get army I mean we have all kinds of army guys maybe even in Australia. That was cool a bunch of army


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[Assistant] I think you can make more rapid progress if you have the right frame of mind going in.


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[Assistant] Like you get done with being an assistant platoon commander, and now you're ready to be good at it.


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[Assistant] And I was super lucky. Again, see, I talk about luck a lot. So I was a prior enlisted guy. When I was an assistant platoon commander, the only person in my platoon at SEAL Team 2 that had more experience than me


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[Assistant] Was the platoon chief who was another guy from team one that we kind of grew up together in the teams He was he was a little bit more he'd been in the teams a little bit longer than me, but not too much longer So we were like the experienced guys when I was a platoon commander same thing like I was my platoon chief


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[Assistant] Had been in for probably an extra six months longer than me, but after that it was just a bunch of, you know, basically guys that have been for six years. We'd been in for thirteen or fourteen done-


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[Assistant] And then when I was a task unit commander, it was like Tony, Tony of fratty and he had been in for probably


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[Assistant] Two or three years longer than me, but then after that, it was just people that had been in for, you know, less than half the time and half the amount of experience. So, that's luck. You know, so when I'm doing a task in a commander now, I'm talking about how I was developing my skills even as a task in a commander.


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[Assistant] I've been in for 15 years. Imagine a normal tasking commander that's only been in for 6 years or no, I guess they've been in for 7 years or 8 years. That's a normal tasking commander. I've been in for 15.


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[Assistant] I had taught, I'd been an instructor at SEAL Team 1 in the training department. I'd done land warfare trip after land warfare trip. I'd done CQB trip after CQB trip. I've taught, I've taught everything.


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[Assistant] And that was when I was, when I was a young single guy too. I was in the training command and guess what trips I went on.


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[Assistant] All of them. Like, oh, you need someone to go out to the desert? Cool, I'm in. You need someone to go to this new mount facility that we've never taken them to? Cool, I'm going. No factor. So, that's why I was so lucky, because, and this is another thing, when you're an instructor,


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[Assistant] When you're an instructor, you're de facto detached. So now I'm watching these JOs go through, and I'm like, oh yeah, this guy's making all kinds of mistakes here, cause he's all caught up in it, whereas I can see everything cause I'm watching him, and then I can connect the dots. Oh.


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[Assistant] When you can see everything. Matter of fact, I was talking to Andrew Paul about this. Andrew Paul was going through


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[Assistant] You know, I, I like to emphasize the fact that I was very lucky.


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[Assistant] Beyond the other people, it was, it was, I got lucky that I had a little bit more.


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[Assistant] I wasn't more senior, but I had more time, I had more experience, and those experiences early on opened up and put me in the right frame of mind, luckily.


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[Assistant] There's this kinda, does this happen? I guess it happens in everything.


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[Assistant] When you learn something for the first time, this happens in the teams all the time. The way people learn something for the first time is the way they think is correct forever. For sure. And it takes like a beat down to get it out of them.


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[Assistant] I had two guys that were like, Vietnam era.


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[Assistant] And one of them was saying to do something some- all the way. And I knew it was wrong.


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[Assistant] Which is crazy to think about, right? But what happened was we were doing what I'd done to back-to-back ARG deployments, which is out on a ship with the Marine Corps, with the Navy, we're doing over the beach all the time. Every operation we did was, was from the ship to the RIBS boats, from the RIBS to Zodiacs, from the Zodiacs across the beach. I mean, I did it over and over and over.


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[Assistant] I did so many over the beach ops, we, and it's, over the beach ops are so, did you ever do over the beach ops? Negative. They're so ridiculously, they're so ridiculously hard.


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[Assistant] I mean, everything, like, you're gonna swim in, so everything is gonna be wet, all your radios are gonna be, and this is before we had waterproof radios, so everything had to be waterproof properly, your weapons are gonna get trashed, I mean, you're gonna be freezing, it's gonna be, there's waves, it's, it makes everything... I wanna give an accurate assessment.


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[Assistant] I would say that if you compare to like, hey we're gonna take a helicopter to this target and we're gonna land and we're gonna patrol in, compared to we're gonna take boats and we're gonna go over the beach and swim in, I think it's probably


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[Assistant] It's six times harder because of a wait, maybe maybe maybe four maybe four to six times harder It's that much harder I'm thinking about the preparation that you'd have to do and the worries that you haven't where you'd have a problem like you're let's face it Once you're on the ground, you're not gonna have a problem. Yeah, like we got this you're you're bringing the boats in


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[Assistant] Vietnam era guy that was saying to do something a certain way.


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[Assistant] And I'm not gonna get into the tactics of it, but he was saying to do a thing a certain way. And I knew that it was wrong because I had just got done with two art platoons where I did mission after mission after mission. And I knew that that was not the right thing to do. And the other Vietnam guy said, hey man, he's wrong.


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[Assistant] And the actual thing that he told me was people don't always remember things right. He was just being merciful about it. He wasn't being a jerk. He was just like, look, people don't always remember things right. So.


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[Assistant] But, but the way you learn something in your first, so this guy probably learned, the guy that was telling us to do something a certain way, probably learned this from somebody somewhere along the route, along the way, and just thought it was the right way to do things.


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[Assistant] And I had learned through actual experience, like, hey, you do this enough times, go over the beach, go to Red Beach Camp Pendleton in the middle of the winter when there's a eight foot swell and you're getting cleaned out. You learn, you learn what to do and you get good at it. And.


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[Assistant] I think that the way people learn things for the first time is it leaves a mark on people and it's very hard to change their minds. So you gotta be careful of that. There's probably some, is there a bias around that? Echo Charles? Like an official bias?


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[Assistant] Like the way you learn something for the first time, are you always biased towards thinking that's correct?


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[Assistant] We saw that all the time. And, and I saw it in myself. And as soon as I saw it in myself,


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[Assistant] I recognized, okay, you're, this is just what you learned and what you learned can be wrong.


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[Assistant] It's a trap. It is a trap. It's a trap. You gotta be careful of it. So uhm, getting back to the book here, I, in this part, section one, foundations. This is, I go through kind of these first fundamental three platoons where I learned, and the reason I went on this whole tangent about learning things for the first time is cause this is where I saw these certain principles for the first time.


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[Assistant] And again, it wasn't like I saw the principal and was like, oh, there it is, I got this. It was like, this is where the seed got planted and it started to grow. The first platoon, the first section here is called Detach.


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[Assistant] It was in my first platoon that I learned the power of being able to detach myself from the chaos and mayhem going on, take a step back and see what was actually happening.


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[Assistant] I was lucky that it happened the way that it did. So I go through the entire, I go through the entire evolution of me learning that. And that is one of those moments.


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[Assistant] Where I absolutely remember it happening. So when the, if the guy would have asked me, hey, when did you learn to detach? Instead of asking me broadly, hey, what, when did all this stuff come together? I couldn't answer that. But when I learned to detach, absolutely remember it. On an oil rig. Doing training.


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[Assistant] No one's making a call, I end up making a call. My second platoon, what I learned in my second platoon, second platoon had a mutiny.


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[Assistant] Into what following someone that's arrogant was like and following someone that is humble is like. And I ended up with, I started with the most arrogant platoon leader.


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[Assistant] Knowledgeable and squared away platoon commander and the attitude that we had with the irrigant guy We would I don't think we sabotaged


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[Assistant] On a regular basis. But there was like subcon- like we'd be doing a mission, a training mission, that he had forced his plan down our throat. We didn't want that thing to succeed. We wanted to prove him wrong. And I don't know if that was always a conscious thing. I think most of the time it was subconscious. But, no doubt, we didn't want to follow him.


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[Assistant] And think about, think about how disturbing that is.


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[Assistant] You're in a seal platoon, and the platoon commander, there's not one single guy in the entire platoon that actually wants to follow that guy.


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[Assistant] And this is the frame of mind thing. I, I had to trace this back. I didn't say what, I didn't say we don't like him because he's arrogant. I didn't, I couldn't, I wasn't smart enough to figure that out.


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[Assistant] And then you get another guy, same group, same sale platoon, exact same guys, and you get a humble guy that gives ownership and all of a sudden we will do anything for this guy and to make sure that we don't let this guy down.


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[Assistant] I gotta cut you off because you go back to the first example. And this is why luck is important. Because the first example is we're on this oil rig and no one's making a decision. I take a step back and I make a call. And to your point,


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[Assistant] Made me say, oh, okay, this is a good thing. So, so, that is luck. Because believe me, you have a seal platoon of 16 guys. The chance is that there's a browbeater. I didn't even know what the word browbeater was. That is an actual type of human being, right? I'm surprised there wasn't one in the breakfast club. A browbeater. You know what I mean? Actually, I guess there was. What about the principal? What was his name?


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[Assistant] You have a browbeater. If I would have had a browbeater in that first platoon. And actually, there was a couple guys that were borderline browbeaters. For sure.


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[Assistant] And for whatever reason, probably because it was the right thing at the right moment, they decided not to beat me down. So is that luck? Yeaah, that is luck. Now, the second story, and again, as you mentioned, like the details of these stories, I put a lot of details so people could really,


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[Assistant] People getting in a fight in a soup tune is no, this is not, this is not a big deal. This is, this is a violent group of dudes that are on, uh, all kinds of, uh, they got all kinds of testosterone running through their blood. Like this is a, this is a gang, you know, and,


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[Assistant] Even then, to your point Dave, the commanding officer


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[Assistant] Wasn't like, okay guys, thank you for the input, I'll get rid of him. He goes, you guys, this sounds like a mutiny, we don't have mutinies in the SEAL teams. Or in the Navy. Get out of here, go do your jobs. It's like, okay. Like, that was not a good, this is not normal.


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[Assistant] And then luckily, that commanding officer was smart enough to actually dig into it further, and he relieved the guy, got fired, he fired him. So, and that is luck. It's luck that the commanding officer, number one, told us shut up, do your job, and number two, he was smart enough to say, you know what, I'm gonna get rid of this guy. Those are lucky circumstances. Uhm,


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[Assistant] So that contrast, another thing that was lucky, if I would have had the horrible platoon commander and then an okay one, I-I may not have noticed. If I would have had, uh,


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[Assistant] Okay platoon commander and then a phenomenal one I may not have noticed I went from one end of the spectrum from from the worst platoon commander


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[Assistant] That I could imagine, to the best platoon commander that I could imagine.


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[Assistant] It's just like anything else, right? You don't, we need to, as human beings, there needs to be some discrepancy for us to notice it, right? We need some contrast. There was a big enough contrast that even my dumbass


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[Assistant] I see what's going on. And that second platoon commander, the good one,


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[Assistant] He's an officer. He was enlisted like me. I'm enlisted like he was. Maybe I could become an officer. Just like this weird, cause I wouldn't have even imagined that. It wasn't even something that I thought about. I wasn't like, hey, you know, I need to become an officer. Never even crossed my mind. Cause we were.


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[Assistant] You know, the enlisted, the, the E5 mafia at SEAL Team 1, we didn't want to be officers. We didn't like officers. You know, it was that whole attitude.


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[Assistant] We don't need to see, we don't, we can see little, little gray area. We can go, oh yeah, here's what's going on here. We don't need to see someone that's a total arrogant person that's only my way of the highway. We don't need to see all that. We can see someone that's leaning in that direction and say, hey,


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[Assistant] You know why you're getting this pushback here? Here's why. It's just a little pushback because you're doing this. And we get to see that easier because we're looking for it. Yeah.


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[Assistant] But whether I would have seen this out of the gate without that broad contrast, probably not.


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[Assistant] Too dumb. So then we get to the third platoon.


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[Assistant] And this is where, again, I go into a lot of details on the story of what actually happened that you can pick apart. You can say, oh yeah, that's what that was. But fundamentally, I...


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[Assistant] Once I made the call, the platoon commander was like, mm, hey, why did you do that? And I said, well, and I reviewed in my mind the cocky, arrogant,


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[Assistant] The ego, my ego was the immediate voice that popped up. You know the Terminators, you know when the Terminator echo? Yes. When you, when he's gonna say something, and he gets an option of multiple responses that flash up in his LED, uh, heads up display.


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[Assistant] I get the well cause you're too slow to make a call or you should have been quicker or you didn't see what was happening or cause I'm detached and I see all those little arrogant responses popped up and I and thankfully thankfully I just jerked the collar on that.


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[Assistant] Just the chain and said well, you're an arrogant right now probably a little bit of that arrogant platoon commander that had


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[Assistant] And I, I did respond saying, well, you know, I, I wasn't sure. I didn't hear you make a call. So, you know, I just, I made one. And then he said, well, I didn't want to, I didn't want to retreat from the target. I wanted to put it. And, and then I realized that


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[Assistant] Number one, being a leader doesn't mean that you have to be making the call every single time. It doesn't mean that at all. In fact, being a good leader means you're supporting


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[Assistant] What the leader, the real leader, the overall leader is wanting to do. What's good for the TPU, that's what you're supposed to do. And it was a good ego check for me. It's not all about me. And so...


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[Assistant] Let's always take a step back and make sure, you know, it's cool to detach and see what to do tactically. How about Jocko detach and see what's best for the team and see how you can support your leader and see how you can be a team player.


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[Assistant] So, that was the, you know, the next important.


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[Assistant] Sort of lesson that I learned that stuck with me. Cause how many times throughout the rest of my career was it?


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[Assistant] Hey, it's this guy's idea or that guy. Oh, it's my idea or the other guy's idea. How many times did that play out? I cannot count the number of times the your idea versus my idea. That happened an infinite number of times. Your idea versus my idea. And learning that lesson of, you know what?


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[Assistant] What's, what's, what's the best idea? And what are we really trying to get done? And is the boss, whoever that boss is? Cause man,


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[Assistant] You're young, you wanna do well, you wanna perform, you, you wanna be the guy, right?


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[Assistant] It's so easy that when the opportunity comes for you to be the guy, to just jump up and beat your chest and be the guy.


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[Assistant] And it feels good that, that short-term gratification of like, putting your chest out like, yeah, I made that call.


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[Assistant] And it's such a short term gain and long term strategic loss to do that. And that's what I learned when the time I made the call and I actually shouldn't have actually should have kept the mouth shut. Alright, so those are the first.


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[Assistant] The first little sections about that and then I get into the laws of combat and the principles of leadership and, uh,


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[Assistant] Pretty, pretty straight forward, like a review. You know, cover, move, simple, prioritize, execute, decentralized command. I'll tell you what though, as I'm writing that down,


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[Assistant] We've taught these principles over and over again to people and teams and organizations of every imaginable kind and these things apply.


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[Assistant] Why are you even gonna put forth that effort, Echo? If when you brought me a plan that was a level 9,


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[Assistant] A good plan? A good plan. And I was like, no, mine's a level 10, we're not using your plan. How much effort are you gonna put in next time to come up with a good plan?


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[Assistant] I mean, that's. We'll just say less, potentially less. I'll tell you that. And I mean, you want to talk about this is real world application? I mean, this is you and I work together. You know, you come up with plans for things. Sometimes, yea. Yea, and, and, unless the plan is egregious,


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[Assistant] I'm sitting back over here going, okay, that's the way you want to set this stuff up. Cool. Okay, sounds good. You want to show up at 9.59 for 10 o'clock?


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[Assistant] For a 10 o'clock, you know, scenario. But even with that, if it's you and me, I go, hey 10 o'clock, you know, 9.59, all good.


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[Assistant] If, if it's you, me, and let's say we're having a guest on, and I'll be, hey man, guest.


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[Assistant] And I know you know what that means. That means, like, hey, that means you're not letting me down. It means we're looking bad. We don't look bad. You know? So, all good.


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[Assistant] Yep. But I'm not, I'm not, I'm not saying hey, there's a guest, you better be here by 9.30 all set up. I just tell you what's up. And you know what to do. Yep. It's true. Communication.


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[Assistant] Shaq, I mean, this is, you know, and same with, like, at Echelon Front. We're doing all kinds of things at Echelon Front. All kinds of things.


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[Assistant] I, I actually talked about this in the muster in Australia. It's really the most I've talked, really, I mean, not a ton, but several times I used it as an example that


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[Assistant] At, you know, the Echelon front muster, there's a lot of moving parts, there's a lot of things happening, there's, there's video, audio visual stuff happening, there's


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[Assistant] Kits being made to hand out to people. There's PT going on. There's...


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[Assistant] So much, there's registration happening, there's check-in, there's handout of stuff, there's organizing of tables, there's all this, there's just huge logistical things that are happening.


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[Assistant] How much do I know of what's going on? Next to none. Next to none. And Jamie, who runs the muster, like she knows


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[Assistant] She knows what the intent is, and if she feels like there's a little, oh, oh, I'm not 100% on this one, I'm not sure. She'll be like, hey Jocko, should we do this or this? And I'll be like, what do you think? And she says, well, I think it'd be smooth as like this. Cool. Makes sense. But, as far as me actually,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Directing anything? It's very, very seldom am I saying no, we need to do it this way. Occasionally we will.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Occasionally we will. Occasionally I will. Occasionally I'll say, nope that's not a good plan. And we're not gonna do it that way. And when, and as you see, when I say that, people go, cool.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, very seldom does someone want to get in, uh, debate with me about something that I'm firm on. I'm firm so seldom.


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[Assistant] The, going back to this, the just review of extreme ownership, the review of the dichotomy of leadership.


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[Assistant] Important, because just like when you read the manual about machine gunning, cool, it talks about the purpose of the machine gun.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The next one is how you actually do that. This is how you shoot that weapon from a bipod. Here's where you put the, here's where you put the weapon on your shoulder. You apply pressure. That's what I'm talking about here. So we got the principles and I have to cover them here. But then, how do we get into...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And again, I, I know we didn't coordinate about which sections to talk about, and there's a ton of sections, I just try to, I just kind of was going through going, alright, this one, this one will be good, but, skipping here, uh, this one is called The Power of Relationships.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The power of relationships, and this is one of those things, uh,


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[Assistant] One of those things you hear all the time, right? Relationships are important. Let me tell you how important they are.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] 99.9% of the things that I did in my entire military career were based on relationships and not based on chain of command.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] 99.9%. I'm not even, I can't remember what the other .1% is. I'm sure it's in there somewhere. But 99.9% of the things that I did,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] In my military career, we're based on relationships. So that goes when I'm talking about being the commander of task unit bruiser and we have an operation


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[Assistant] And Leif is gonna be the, the assault force commander or the ground force commander on an operation.


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[Assistant] I'm saying, hey Leif, here's what we got. What do you think? And we, together,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Is the most important thing. 99.9% of what you do should be from the relationships you have.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Going, going back to the book, there is another key element to leading any exceptional team, relationships. Leaders, leadership requires relationships. Good relationships with people above you, below you, and beside you in the chain of command are critical for a strong team. The better the relationships, the more open and effective communication there is. The more communication there is, the stronger the team will be.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] For example, there are times when a boss is driving forward on a less than ideal path that needs to be redirected.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] If you have a good relationship with a boss, you can explain tactfully


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[Assistant] What you see to be errors in their thoughts and ideas. As always, the approach you use to discuss this is important. Put the onus on yourself as to why the idea doesn't make sense. For example,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And you can begin to figure out why the boss's idea is what it is and what you can do to influence that idea.


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[Assistant] But before even getting to that point, ask yourself some simple questions. First, how much will be gained by approaching the boss and trying to convince them to change their plan?


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[Assistant] If the difference is minimal, it's probably not worth investing any time or effort into it. Next, ask yourself how much of your concern is just your ego. There is a chance


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[Assistant] There is a chance that you see your way of doing something as smarter or more efficient than what the boss has offered. If that is the case and you don't


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[Assistant] Truly think there is much to be gained by using your method. Let it go. Don't create drama over your ego. Lastly, ask yourself if you will be moving your relationship with your boss forward or backward by raising this issue.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I've been saying, hey, every conversation I'm gonna have with another person is to improve the relationship. That's like, priority number one, prioritize next to you, priority number one, I'm gonna improve our relationship. If I'm gonna have a conversation with Dave, our relationship is getting better. Dave's walking around, walking away from the conversation going, man, I, I, I hope I can do good by Jaco.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] As opposed to walking away, shaking his head going, I hope that guy forgot to take out his garbage Monday morning and he has to wait another day.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] If my goal in going into a conversation is to improve my relationship with you, does that make me, uh, some kind of a...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Some kind of a fake person, right? Oh, I'm a fake person because I'm just trying to trick Dave into liking me.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] No. Actually, I want us to win. And by the way, this goes back to the difference between leadership and manipulation, which I talk about in the book. So if my goal is to get you to do something, that's gonna benefit me? Yeah, that's manipulation. And it's wrong.


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[Assistant] If my goal in getting, improving our relationship is so that


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[Assistant] Our team can do better. We can accomplish our mission. And both those things, by the way, benefit you. Well guess what that's called? It's called leadership.


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[Assistant] It's almost like- It's called a brown-noser. And people can, yea, if you're a brown-noser, that's, that's, that's a good point, right? There's a dichotomy with everything. If you go so far that all I'm looking to do is please, Dave, with this conversation, there's no tension at all, there's no, there's, there's nothing, just me being a pushover.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I'll tell you how you crush it. When I'm talking to Dave, you know why I'm talking to Dave and you know why I want to build a relationship? Cause I care about Dave.