[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But then, so kind of, they're released to, to nothing that could hold them. So like what you were saying, Megan, is a lot of our clients come in, uhm, from a hospital or like,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Could have been in one, maybe they've been maintained at home, but like not, not well. And it takes, it's like this whole arc, it takes a long time to stabilize, all the stuff we just talked about with sleep and food, before we can even get into the nitty gritty of like,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] What is going on here? What needs to happen? Let's get you off these 14 meds. Let's figure out what this really happened. Like this takes a long time, so the idea was nice. It was like kind of a humane idea, but the outside world was not equipped.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And yeah, like affordable and accessible. And by the way, I just want to pause because you have been a great support to us. I mean, not only in the Anew Treatment Center, but in our previous facilities. So,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Is considered having like kind of a, a mental health experience. One in twenty.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Is considered as having like a serious mental health.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Diagnosis or condition. One in twenty. So I don't know the math. And a hundred thousand people. How many does that turn out to? And we got seventeen vets. I mean, it's, it's, it's insane.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] There is a need for external scaffolding. Like you said earlier, people, like, do they, like, they don't really want to be there, do they? Nope, they don't. And in the beginning, that's totally fine. We're gonna, like, scaffold them up, because internally, they're kinda jiggly and not really set, right?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] We, we pull the external scaffolding back because what is happening theoretically is


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Access their own agency, their own strength, normalizing and saying, yep, I get it. You know what? Today is just a rough one. That's fine. Nothing is wrong with you.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] We're just having one of those days and help them to develop that internal confidence and agency of like self-management even when you have an illness, even if you have PTSD, even if you lost your friend.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Nobody wants to have PTSD. Nobody wants to have these symptoms. So even on the surface, if it looks like, why on earth would you do that?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So uhm, it's easy, it's part of the stigma, to move into kind of a shaming, uhm, why, why did you do that? Like that's, that's ridiculous, or you, you know better than that, like this kind of thing. People will sink, right? They kind of cower and sink into that and in some ways might even come to believe that,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I'm weak, I'm incapable, I'm stupid, I'm whatever, which is gonna suck the sense of agency. So encouragement.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Like what, what that person would have done in their head and how that would have, so I think one of the advices, like it's both, is say something, say something, call it out, ask a question, hey, like, again, the person might say, oh I'm good, I'm good, don't worry about it, okay, but at least you saw them and they,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, it's really, it's like a slippery scenario, right? Because just like how you get, it's a spectrum. It's not like, oh, you're the, you know, like compared to your body. So if you break your arm.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And that's sort of, it's kind of a distinct thing. A fracture? Protocol. Broken. Stress fracture? Okay. A spiral fracture? Okay. You know, kind of a thing.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, that's, and that's so, it makes it so clear how helpful it is to understand and inversely kind of to express that to people who might be in a certain situation, that like, hey, that's, that's normal. Like there's nothing quote unquote wrong, that's normal, you know? And uhm,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So, and that's what makes it even harder too. Where it's like this bad thing, this thing that I don't want, you know, like you break your arm, something that you hurt, your arm will say, you hurt before you go to the doctor or whatever. You know something's wrong. Like this thing is hurting, it's not getting better, whatever, let me go, I know something's wrong.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So it's like harder to, you know, afterwards, like maybe if I'm behaving in a certain way, it's like certain symptoms have to kind of arrive or arise along with the feeling. And it's all like, and if you don't know, you don't know, you know, so it's like just so slippery like that.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And we all know people, maybe not a lot, but we know people who are like, they obviously routinely do things that are just, you shouldn't be doing that, and they're like, no, no, no, I'm fine, I'm fine. Absolutely fine. So you're like, man, am I that guy? Just not knowing all the things that I'm doing that's not fine, you know?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It reminds you that, hey, I didn't really think about this. Where, like, going out, going outside, right? I think actually you said it. Get outside.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And not just outside the building, I mean, I think anyway, outside and talk to people, talk to different people, be around different people, cause you know, now a lot of my work, quote unquote, work is inside, in front of the computer for long periods of time.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So then I remember, not recently, but this was like years ago, where I remember not going outside for a few days. Like not going outside of the building in a few days. That's not healthy. Yea, and you can feel it too. Like after a while when you kind of are in touch with it, like you can feel it. Or not used to, not, or being, not used to being around people.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] When, okay, I used to work in a nightclub where you're around people all the time. All different dynamic spectrum of people all the time.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Positive, negative, everybody. Uhm, and then, you know, working inside where you're not around a lot of people, like, I can totally tell the difference. Like the idea of me, and this might have to do with age too, by the way, but,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And so you take that idea and do it and just apply it to everyday life. I know nightclub and all that stuff is different, a little bit different, but in everyday life, if you're used to going out to the store or going out to this and that and then,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeaah, and how that can jam you up mentally. Yeaah. It doesn't seem like you're made for that kind of stuff, you know. Just being isolated.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeaah. So we, and, so you weren't like a jock. No. You were jock-o, but you were jock-o.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Okay, so yeaah, so to me, that is working out. So, especially if you took it even this much seriously. So consider, and I'll use myself as an example. So, when I was 11 years old, I started actual sports.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Push ups, and so I always thought that having big muscles was cool, yes. So, so I would do that kind of stuff, yes, for sure. And then when you reach puberty, 13, 14, probably like 15 years old, we started lifting weights. So, man, from there, bro, it was on. It was all one big program indefinitely. Till now.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Till literally right now. Till this morning. Yes sir. So, and this is how it works. Essentially, if you care about sports, you care about your performance in sports, which we did. So you go on season, obviously you're practicing every day, football and track. That's what we did. So football is one season. Once football is over, get ready for track. Between that set, you're lifting weights.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So yeaah, you're just going from one sport, to lifting and conditioning, to the next sport, lifting and conditioning, and back and forth years, through college, uhm.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And then after college, it was just lifting. And then when I got into Jiu Jitsu, okay, now it's lifting and conditioning for Jiu Jitsu tournaments, all this stuff. So essentially being on the program on the path on a, from a physical standpoint is has been.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, but as a result, it is served as like an anchor. So, you know, the idea of like not working out. It's not a thing. Like, oh, he just quit working out. Bro, man, it's hard to relate even though it's so common.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So yeaah, I think if you can anchor that, the workout, like my physical health is like an anchor, a given.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And yeaah, take your supplements. That helps it. That helps the physical part. So I'm saying jacuzzi is good, so functional. This is the line of supplements I wish I always had.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yes, oh, yeah, and you know, so that's that's what we're gonna get and he's like, yeah, I take freaking water


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And that's, but so yeaah, now we know brad's not like that. You gotta take the correct stuff, made with the correct stuff, for the correct stuff.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So yeaah, we're doing that, we've got joint stuff, uh, MOLK, which is the protein, that's the protein we should have had back in the day. Not this mega sugar, one million or whatever it was before. Um, the energy drinks, Jocko Go. The first health, well maybe not the first, I don't know, I have no idea. The first. Fully healthy energy drink. Yes.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It does! There you go. It does! Well, one third of it seems sane. One third.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Again, the Discipline Equals Freedom Standard Issue t-shirt is out. We made the announcement. Made it yesterday to the people. And you know, good response. It's a good, it's a good standard issue shirt.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeaah, it's a metaphorical, uh, it's a metaphorical word. It's a metaphor for, for what? The shirt locker.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, you know, people, I read the comments.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, there's actually a lot of good designs on there. Sometimes people request certain types of designs. We go down a rabbit hole looking into it, you know, the viability of certain ones. And some of them is just real obvious that just need to be made into shirts.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You know, but it's fun. Anyway, that's called the shirt locker. One shirt, uh, new shirt every month. Uhm, cool thing, people seem to like it. Check that out. It's all on Jocko's store.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Oh yeaah, monthly, even if you're having the most, unless you're not drinking coffee at all, you're spending more than $18. Even the cheapest. Even if you're going to the grocery store, getting, yeaah, you're going to spend maybe $8, maybe.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] This is Jocko Podcast number 354 with Echo Charles and me, Jocko Willink. Good evening, Echo. Good evening.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] In August of 2000, the militant Islamic group Abu Sayyaf in the southern Philippines broadcast that it captured a CIA agent.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The truth was not as newsworthy or as valuable to the rebels. Abu Sayyaf had kidnapped Jeffrey Schilling, a 24 year old American who had traveled near their base in Holo Island.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] A California native, Schilling became a hostage with a 10 million dollar price tag on his head.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] At the time, I was a supervisory special agent.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Attached to the FBI's elite crisis negotiation unit, the CNU. The CNU is the equivalent of the Special Forces of Negotiations.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It's attached to the FBI's Hostage Rescue Team, HRT. Both are national counter-terrorist response assets. They are the best of the best.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I was a natural for the Schilling case. I had spent some time in the Philippines and had an extensive background in terrorism from my New York City days assigned to the Joint Terrorism Task Force, JTTF.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] A few days after Schilling became a hostage, my partner Chuck Ragini and I flew to Manila to run the negotiations.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Along with Jim Nixon, the FBI's highest official in Manila, we conferred with the top Philippine military brass. They agreed to let us guide the negotiations.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Then we got down to business. One of us would take charge of the negotiation strategy for the FBI and consequently for the US government. That became my role.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] With the support of my colleagues, my job was to come up with a strategy, get it approved, and implement it.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Our principal adversary was Abu Sabaya.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The rebel leader who personally negotiated for Schilling's ransom.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Sabaya was a veteran of the rebel movement with a violent past. He was straight out of the movies. A terrorist sociopath killer.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He had a history of rape, murder and beheadings.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He liked to record his bloody deeds on video, and then send them to the Philippine media.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Sabaya always wore sunglasses, a bandana, a black t-shirt, and camo pants. He thought it made him a more dashing figure.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] If you look for any photos of Abu Sayyaf terrorists from this period, you will always see one in sunglasses. That's Sabaya.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Sabaya loved, loved, loved the media.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] They'd call him and ask him questions in Tagalog, his native tongue.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He would answer in English because he wanted the world to hear his voice on CNN.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] They should make a movie about me, he would tell reporters.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He would find out and I intended it to be a surprise he wouldn't like. As an FBI agent, I wanted to free the hostage and bring the criminal to justice.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] As a result of the Schilling case, I would become the FBI's lead international kidnapping negotiator.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Is a book, is an excerpt from a book. The book is called Never Split the Difference, which is written by a man named Chris Voss. Chris Voss spent 24 years with the FBI.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Where he spent time as the lead crisis negotiator for the New York City division of the FBI. Was also the lead international kidnapping negotiator.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But also by Harvard Law School and Scotland Yard, which is London's Metropolitan Police.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He worked the 1993 World Trade Center bombing, the TWA flight 800 explosion, the cat, the kidnapping of Jill Carroll in Iraq in 2006, as well as countless other dynamic situations around the world.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Let me know. Let me know. I'm here to help out. Yeah, fantastic book. If you don't have this yet, it's never split the difference. The subtitle is Negotiating as if your life depended on it.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So, fantastic book, and we actually tried to do this before COVID, or maybe right before COVID, but it didn't work out. And so, glad you could finally get out here, and definitely looking forward to this conversation.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, let's, before we jump into the book and all your lessons, let's get a little bit of background on you and how you ended up here today. So where'd you grow up? Where'd you come from?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And so what were you doing growing up? Were you playing sports in school? Do you like school? What was the deal there?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Did, did you have interest in going to college? What was your, what was your future looking like when you were like 16 years old?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Those seasons clash. Now at what point did you start looking at law enforcement?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So, did you graduate in four years? Four, yeah, four years. And then was it straight to the police academy somewhere?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So you, so you end up in Kansas City, how's that, like, uh, going to the police academy? How, is that a boot camp scenario? Is it a gentleman's course? Is it, you go home in the afternoon? Are you staying in barracks? How does that all work?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, that's uh, just a horrible thing to see happening right now with law enforcement. I mean, I've talked to a lot of police officers around the country and in most places right now.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You cannot use a neck restraint. It's considered lethal force and you cannot use it. Right. Uhm, and as anybody that knows anything,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It is absolutely the best way to get someone under control that's out of control without hurting them. And if somebody had to restrain my wife or my daughter, I would beg that they please use a neck restraint.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] They'll be fine. Uh, so it's, it's great to hear that at some point in time you were trained in that way and you did it every day. So you learn how effective it is. You also learn what to be careful of. Right. So yeah, that, that makes sense.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] To go from, oh this guy's a problem and now I have to shoot him because I don't know what else to do or I'm not allowed to do anything else. That escalation from this guy's gonna be perfect, literally perfectly fine, to now he's dead. Because I didn't have, I wasn't authorized to use the tools that I should be authorized to use and should be trained properly. Uh, that's awful. So it's a six month


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And, like, when you're, when you're saying classrooms is like four or five hours a classroom a day, you learned about the laws, you learned about what you can and cannot do. Yeaah. That kind of stuff.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] If I'm pulling you over and I'm by myself...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Well I'm by myself, so I better deescalate, right? I better be thinking.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Whereas if I'm with Echo, and he's my partner, and you start getting mouthy, well, you know, we're gonna kick your ass, I feel more confident, more, just like in a bar, right? Exactly. The guy that's in the bar that's by himself, he's not causing any problems, it's the guy that's with three of his friends, and all of a sudden he's getting mouthy.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, it's weird for me because in my background in the SEAL teams, you... If...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So you're always, cause you know, you can't watch your back. You know, you just can't. So you always have someone with you. So I've always thought to myself, man, if I was a police officer, I'd really like to have a partner. Uhm.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, uh, I would definitely, you know, any, this is the same thing in the SEAL teams. I mean, you got to learn to deescalate things. And in just being in a leadership position, you got to learn to deescalate things because someone comes in and they're mad about something. And if you're in a leadership position and all you do is go back at them.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] See, see they, you know, boss this plan sucks. And you think, oh, you're challenging me? Instead of saying, oh, well, what sucks about the plan? Do you want to make some adjustments to it? Like, that's what you do. That's how you deescalate it. You don't say, well, you don't understand the whole problem. How dare you. So. Right, yeah. Uh, yeah, that takes...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So that takes some, uh, some mental gymnastics to get to a point where you can do that.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So now you're out there in Kansas City, a couple months. Was there any moment where you felt like...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Like, oh, I messed up or, or did you ever feel like, okay, now I'm a cop? You know what I'm saying?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] What's the beef? Where's the beef? Did this guy have a specific beef with the FBI?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And I spoke at the last FBI National Academy meeting, yeaah. It was awesome.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So you get picked up for the FBI, uh, you show up to the academy. How's the academy?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] How are you looking at, cause you're a cop coming off the main streets, and how are you looking at the college kids? Is there like a fun with that interaction?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Was there any, uh, did you have any challenges when you were there? Was there anything hard for you?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Are you, when you're there, so is, is everyone getting trained just to be an agent? Yea. And is there, do you go to specialty training after that? So if I'm an accountant and they think I'm gonna be looking at tax fraud, do I go there, I become an agent, and then I go to an advanced school to be, uh, you know, a tax fraud guy?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But, uh, if I speak Spanish or I speak Russian, are they gonna throw me into an assignment where this is my main gig as soon as I get done?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So as a normal agent, for you for instance, do you get any say in where you're going and what you're getting assigned to? No. They're just gonna give you what they're gonna give you?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Oh so you're saying not literally like it's witness protection but they take you and they're not going to send you back to where you're from. Right. They're going to send you to some other city so you don't have to run into people you used to know, you're going to be. Right.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So this is your first assignment in Pittsburgh? Two years in Pittsburgh. You get some kind of a special assignment like you're gonna be working gang, you're gonna be working drug, you're gonna be, or you just working.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, you get there, you get assigned this foreign counterintelligence. You already know this is really not your gig. Well, so what's your scam? What do you run? How do you try and maneuver?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The uh, or that was trying to go from the SEAL teams to the FBI. The other one was going to another agency inside the government. And they both went to the screening.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Tell us, you know, don't tell us the number when we ask you if it's the number. And he goes, okay. And so he's, you know, thinking of three. And they go, is it one? And he goes, no. And the, the, the thing's all flat. He goes, is it two? And he goes, no. And as soon as he says that, he goes, the thing starts going wild. Is it three? He said it's off. He goes, they knew exactly because I told them that.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You know, for me, I'm like you. Like I don't want to be, I don't like to have like, I don't like to have to cover, like lie about stuff and make stuff up and it just doesn't sit well with me. I wouldn't be a good undercover guy. Uh, so how long did you have to do that for?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I was, I worked surveillance for about a year and a half. A year and a half. Now a lot of times you're just straight up sitting in like the plumbing van on the corner, with a camera, taking pictures. That's what you're doing.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You roll up to New York and what do you get assigned when you get up there?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] They disband this terrorist task force after they kind of broke a bunch of these domestic terrorist groups up.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] They say, ah, there's no more threat. Were you guys already saying, hey no, there's an Islamic extremist threat? Or were you not quite there yet?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Okay, so you guys are now part of this gang task force.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So what was your, so were you in that gang task force doing surveillance when the first World Trade Center attack happened?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] How, how, uh, how surprised were we on that first World Trade Center bombing?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And we got lucky on that bombing. I mean, the amount of damage that bomb could've done.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] How did this impact your job? So once this happens, is it like full focus? Now you realize you gotta, you gotta pay the, the FBI needs to pay attention to the Islamic extremists.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] At what point did you get interested or start to get involved in negotiation?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And, and so this is inside the FBI. There's a detachment of negotiators. Is that the way it's set up?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So you're, this is when you're still part of the gang task force, you get this collateral duty as a negotiator. So if something was to pop up where a negotiator was needed, they'd call, you'd get brought in.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Whereas some other guy that became a bomb tech, all of a sudden there's a bomb, they find a pipe bomb somewhere, they need someone to go work on that, they call one of the bomb tech guys that's been to that school. Exactly. And so forth. Okay, so you've been trained now.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Once you've been trained in that, did you start to realize this is kind of something that you're good at? Did you realize it was something you were more interested in, you thought you would be?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] What's an example of what you instinctively might think you should say to what you actually should say?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I'll do that. So what's psychologically going through my head when I tell you, I wanna put a cap on this night, I gotta put a cap on this night, and you say, you say back to me, you sound like you're frantic. What's going through my head that's making me deescalate?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So, this is how, this is kinda how you get started in this negotiation, learning this skill, uhm, and I kinda told you this before we started recording, we're gonna see all kinds of


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Overlap between what I talk about from a leadership perspective


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You know, there's a lot of skills that are transferred. It's like, if you're good at baseball, there's a lot of things that are going to transfer over to softball. If you're good at wrestling, there's a lot of things that are going to transfer over to, uh,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Jiu-jitsu. So there's a lot of stuff that's really, really similar and there's some, some differences as well. But this skill of negotiation as I read through the book,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It's evolved a lot in the last 40, 50 years. And, you know, some of the stuff that you talk about in the book,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You know, hostage negotiation used to mean, you know, stall them until we get a chance to assault. Like, that was what it was.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] There was a mindset change that you outlined in the book, uh, that occurred around


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] 1971, October 1971, a guy named George Giff, am I saying that right? He's a, he's a guy that took a, took, took a plane, took a plane, took hostages on the plane. The plane lands to refuel. The hostages had actually negotiated their own release.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But the FBI got frustrated and shoots the engine of the plane. The guy loses his mind, kills the hostages. The FBI gets sued, and actually loses the lawsuit.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And they're starting to look at negotiation theory and practice. They're trying to improve it. Uh, a book ends up coming out of that. The book is called Getting to Yes.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That was written by Roger Fisher and William Urie, who were also the co-founders of that project. And, and the theory that they had was that


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Look, the, you know, people are emotional and they're animalistic and they're unreliable. And they're irrational. And you just need to overcome that.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So those are some of the, uh, those are some of the evolutions that start to take place.


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[Assistant] When, in the book that you, that you run through, uhm, and in fact going to the book here,


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[Assistant] So this is like one of those just detached academic things. It was a brilliant rational and profound synthesis of the most advanced game theory and legal thinking of the day for years after that book came out. Everybody including the FBI and the NYPD focused on problem solving approach.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Bargaining interactions. It just seems so modern, modern and smart.


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[Assistant] So that was what was kinda happening. Then you go on to say halfway across the United States a pair of professors at the University of Chicago was looking at everything from economics to negotiation from a far different angle. They were economists, amos,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Tversky? Am I saying that right? Tversky. And psychologist Daniel Kahneman. Kahneman. Kahneman. Kahneman, yea. And he wrote, uh, Thinking Fast and Slow.


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[Assistant] Feeling, they discovered, is a form of thinking.


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[Assistant] That means on both sides. That means considering that both people on both sides are rational. And so it went in negotiation classes, assuming the other side was acting rationally and selfishly, trying to maximize their position.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The goal is to figure out how to respond in various scenarios to maximize one's own value. This mentality baffled Kahneman, who for years, from years in psychology knew that in his words, quote, it is self evident that people are neither fully rational nor completely selfish and that their tastes are anything but stable, end quote.


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[Assistant] So there were these two schools going on with negotiation and one of them took this kind of logical approach and the other one realized that you had to deal with these emotional, the emotions was a way of thinking you're gonna have something you're gonna have to deal with. And you must have realized that on the suicide hotlines as well.


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[Assistant] Now you go into the book a little bit about how the FBI sort of started to adopt this, you know, the FBI,


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[Assistant] They were deep into that book at one point getting to yes, that was what they were using. A lot of guys were using that.


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[Assistant] But then, you know, you get Ruby Ridge up in Idaho, you get the...


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[Assistant] The Waco, Texas, right? These things are kind of disaster. These things are actually kind of disaster. They're very disastrous.


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[Assistant] It was becoming alarmingly obvious that getting to yes didn't work with kidnappers. No matter how many agents read the book with highlighters in hands, it failed to improve how we as hostage negotiators approached deal making.


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[Assistant] There was clearly a breakdown between the book's brilliant theory and everyday law enforcement experience. Why was it that everyone had read this best-selling business book and endorsed it as one of the greatest negotiators in text ever written and yet so few could follow it successfully? Weren't we morons?


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[Assistant] Uh, in 1994, fast forward a little bit from the book. And again, I'm reading the excerpt from the book. The book is awesome. I mean, we're hitting some wave tops, so just order the book right now so you can get all these details. In 1994, FBI Director Louis Free announced- Louis Free. Louis Free.


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[Assistant] A blended division that would combine crisis negotiation, crisis management, behavioral sciences and hostage rescue teams and reinvent crisis negotiation.


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[Assistant] The only issue was what techniques were we going to use. And you go on to say what were needed were simply, were simple psychological tactics and strategies that worked in the field to calm people down, establish rapport, gain trust, elicit verbalization of needs, and persuade the other guy of our, of our empathy.


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[Assistant] We needed something that was easy to teach, easy to learn, and easy to execute.


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[Assistant] In the early years, the FBI experimented with both new and old therapeutic techniques developed by the counseling profession. These counseling skills were aimed at developing positive relationships with people by demonstrating an understanding of what they're going through and how they feel about it.


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[Assistant] This is exactly what I talk about from a leadership perspective. I mean, if you don't know me at all, I'm absolutely trying to get you to trust me. How do I get you to trust me? I put some trust in you. I listen to what you have to say, you're gonna listen to me. Same exact thing here. Back to the book. Listening is the cheapest, yet most effective concession we can make to get there.


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[Assistant] By listening intensely, a negotiator demonstrates empathy and shows a sincere desire to better understand what the other side is experiencing. Exactly why you listen to your subordinates.


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[Assistant] You go on to say psychotherapy research shows that when individuals feel listened to, they tend to listen to themselves more carefully and openly evaluate and clarify their own thoughts and feelings.


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[Assistant] In addition, they tend to become less defensive and oppositional and more willing to listen to other points of view, which gets them to calm, to the calm and logical place where they can be good getting to, yes, problem solvers.


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[Assistant] So again, this is one of the things that I am talking about all the time with people.


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[Assistant] I always say, you know, if I'm, if I want you to see something, if I wanna, if I know the truth about something, if I've got some great plan, and I want you on board with my plan, the best thing I can do is not tell you what the plan is, is let you come up with a plan. Let you, let the truth be revealed to you by you. Right.


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[Assistant] And, and you go on to say this whole concept which you'll learn as the centerpiece of this book is called Tactical Empathy.


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[Assistant] This is listening as a martial art, balancing the subtle behaviors of emotional intelligence and assertive skills of influence to gain access to the mind of the other person. Contrary to popular opinion, listening is not a passive activity. It is the most active thing you can do.


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[Assistant] Once we started developing our new techniques, the negotiating world split into two concurrence, two currents. Negotiation as learned at the country's top school continued down the established road of rational problem solving.


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[Assistant] While ironically, we meatheads at the FBI began to train our agents in an unproven system based on psychology, counseling, and crisis intervention.


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[Assistant] Yeaah, no, it's great and telling you, I mean, I just, I was really, uh, really stoked to read it and got so much out of it. Just seeing, you know, that whole section right there, I mean, this is what I'm talking to people all the time about from a leadership perspective. You know, the big difference,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The big difference between when I talk about leadership and if you and I are negotiating,


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[Assistant] The big difference is as a leader, I don't really care, at the end of the day, what plan we use.


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[Assistant] At the end of the day, I don't care if we attack it from the north or from the south, I just want which one is best. So I don't really have, I'm not trying to make you think something. I actually just want to find the best solution. Now there's a chance that my solution is the best, there's a chance that your solution is the best.


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[Assistant] If I go and try and ram my solution down your throat, what are you gonna do? You're gonna get defensive, we might not get to the best solution.


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[Assistant] The main thing that I can do to help us get to the best solution, not to my solution, not to your solution, but just to the best solution. Right. The best thing for me to do is listen to what you have to say. Cause I can't make you listen to me. I can't.


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[Assistant] But I can't listen to you. That's gonna open up your mind. It's gonna move us in the right direction. So that's, that's probably the, the big difference between the two is that when you're negotiating, you have a goal that you're trying to get to.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That, you know, you and I are working at a company and, and we can't come to a...


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[Assistant] And the reason it happens so rarely in business is because if you and I work for the same company, well we both want to make money, we both want to take care of our client, we both want to take care of the team, right? Like, we're ultimately aligned. And so we...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] We're trying to do something that's gonna make us money and take care of the client and take care of our team.


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[Assistant] We're gonna figure out a solution. That's 99% of the time. 1% of the time.


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[Assistant] You don't wanna, you either, you either don't wanna help the client. There's someone on the team you don't wanna take care of. There's something going on where we're truly not aligned. Maybe you wanna break off and start your own company so you want us to fail. And if it comes to a point where I'm saying, Chris, hold on a second.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] This is going to make us money, it's going to take care of our team, it's going to take care of the client and, and we can't come to an agreement. That means we're not aligned. And you know, you talk about that, there are some deals where, you know, you want to sell the car and I want to buy the car, but we just can't, there's no


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] There's no possible way that we're gonna do it cause you want, you know, $30,000 for the car and I literally can only pay $20,000 and it's not gonna happen.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] We're not aligned. So that does occasionally happen. Uhm.


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[Assistant] But yeaah, it's, it's, it's very interesting that the meatheads at the FBI were the ones that started trying to listen and empathize and see the other people's perspective.


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[Assistant] Let's get, let's get into the book, uh, and I'll tell you what when I was reading the book one thing that was a little bit tricky.


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[Assistant] For me, as I was reading the book, I'm like, I wanna read a bunch, you got, it's kinda written, you know, I've written a couple books too, and in my books,


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[Assistant] I tell the story, the combat story, the business story and then give the principle and that's what your book is too. There's a lot of that. Hey, here's a combat story, an FBI story or a business story and here's the negotiating principle that comes out of it. And I kind of was going back and forth, you know, do I read a bunch of the stories? Cause the stories are great, but I figured since you're here,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, the techniques. The techniques, the negotiation techniques that you outlined in the book. And that's kinda what I decided to do. May or may not have been the right decision. We're not sure yet. Maybe you'll have to come back just for pure story time.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But I wanted to get into the tactics that you talk about because again, I think they're so prevalent and at, at, you know, in your intro to the book, you talk about negotiating being


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Negotiation is life. You're negotiating all the time. Right. So these are things that you, that everybody can use all the time. And, and the other thing is kinda like leadership. People think leadership, you either have it or you don't. But really leadership is a bunch of skills that you can learn.


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[Assistant] And negotiation, you know, how often you hear, oh that guy's a great negotiator.


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[Assistant] You hear that a lot, or that guy's not a good negotiator, but what you don't realize is negotiation, just like basketball, or just like playing guitar, there's a bunch of skills that you can learn, there's a bunch of moves that you can make, and once you know those skills, once you know those moves, you can utilize them. And so this book, awesome book for pointing out


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[Assistant] Some of these, uh, tactics, techniques and procedures. So, let's get into a little bit. The first technique that you talk about, or the first one that I'm gonna highlight is called mirroring. Yeaah.


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[Assistant] Is essentially imitation. It's another neurobehavior that humans and other animals display in which we copy each other to comfort each other. It can be done with speech patterns, body language, vocabulary, tempo, tone of voice. It generally, it's generally an unconscious behavior.


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[Assistant] We're rare, rarely aware of when it's happening, but it's a sign that people are bonding in sync and establishing the kind of rapport that leads to trust.


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[Assistant] It's a phenomenon and now a technique that follows a very basic but profound biological principle. We fear what's different and are drawn to what's similar. As the saying goes, birds of a feather flock together. Mirroring then, when practiced consciously, is the art of insinuating similarity.


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[Assistant] Trust me, a mirror signals to another unconscious, you and I, we're alike.


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[Assistant] Once you're attuned to the dynamic, you'll see it everywhere. Couples walking on the street with their steps in perfect synchronicity.


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[Assistant] For the FBI, a mirror is when you repeat the last three words or


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[Assistant] Of the entirety of the FBI's hostage negotiation skill set. Mirroring is the closest one gets to a Jedi.


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[Assistant] Mind trick. Simple yet uncannily effective. By repeating back what people say you trigger this mirroring instinct and your counterpart will inevitably elaborate on what was just said and sustain the process of connecting. Psychologist Richard Wiseman created a study using waders to identify what was more effective


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] What, the more effective method of creating a connection with strangers? Mirroring or positive reinforcement. One group of waiters using positive reinforcement, lavish praise and encouragement on patrons using the words such as great, no problem, and sure, in response to each order.


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[Assistant] The other group of waiters mirrored their customers simply by repeating their orders back to them. The results were stunning. The average tip of the waiters who mirrored was 70% more than those who use positive reinforcement.


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[Assistant] So, that's pretty amazing. It's nuts, isn't it? Yeaah. You point out later in the book that it can feel weird to mirror when you first start doing it.


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[Assistant] Uh, one piece of advice that I give to people is when Chris rolls into my office and you're pissed about something, I gotta talk to you right now.


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[Assistant] One thing I tell people is like, cool, I get out my notebook. Get out my pen.


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[Assistant] And to me, that's showing you that I'm listening to what you have to say, and I'm taking it seriously. And it seems like mirroring is a...


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[Assistant] If you're repeating what I'm saying, then I'm like, oh, he's paying attention to me. He's listening to me. You're proving that you're listening to the person, which also is a...


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[Assistant] People don't realize how important it is, and I think one of the ways that I use to explain how important it is, is I use the opposite, which is, if you're talking and I cut you off,


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[Assistant] Everyone knows that's disrespectful. Everybody knows it. It's like a sign of disrespect. If someone's talking, I jump in there and cut them off. Oh, you're not listening to me. That's being disrespectful.


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[Assistant] Again, we're hitting the highlights of this book. You gotta, you gotta get the book. The book is definitely going to, is definitely going to leave a mark on your brain.


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[Assistant] I'm gonna fast forward a little bit here. The language of negotiation is primarily a language of conversation and rapport.


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[Assistant] Here are some key lessons from this chapter. Remember a good negotiator negotiator prepares going in to be ready for possible surprises. A great negotiator aims to use her skills to reveal the surprises she is certain to find.


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[Assistant] My note next to that was role play. How often are we role playing if we're negotiating?


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[Assistant] What do you mean? So, let's say from a leadership perspective, you know, it's you and me, we're peers, and I go, hey, Chris, I gotta, I gotta go meet with Echo, you know how he's all mad about, you know, us cutting his hours? I'm gonna go talk to him right now, I know he's pissed, can we run through this a couple times?


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[Assistant] So I'm just gonna roleplay, so that way I think about what could Echo possibly say, you know, he might, he might get mad about this, he might talk about his family, he might talk about how long he's been here, and I wanna kinda have some contingency plans here, right? To do what you said. Prepare.


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[Assistant] Be ready for possible surprises and actually be ready to take those surprises. And when he says,


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[Assistant] You know, what about my family? And I said, well, the important thing is Echo, I know we got to give you some less hours right now, but the main thing I want to do is keep you here. The only way you can do that is if we cut back your hours a little bit.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Hopefully gonna be temporary. It should be when the market picks back up. Are we in an actual negotiation? See where I'm going here. Echo's not in his head. He's kind of on board. Let's take care of the family.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So there you go. You know, there's another point. Hey, now's a little time to make all those baseball games you gotta make. So.


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[Assistant] That's a point that you made. Role play is something that we did, that we do with our clients all the time. Right.


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[Assistant] You say don't commit to assumptions, instead view them as a hypothesis and use the negotiation to test them rigorously.


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[Assistant] To me, my note I wrote down on this one was the most important characteristic for a leader, to me, is to be humble.


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[Assistant] And if you're not humble, you know, I go in thinking I'm right, you're wrong. Or I'm just right. Doesn't even matter what you are because I know I'm right.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] This, this word of, or the way you put it, viewing your ideas as a hypothesis, view my plan as a, it's beautiful.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And it's a good word when you're going into a discussion with somebody.


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[Assistant] Don't say this is MY idea. Say this is uh, just a hypothesis. It's the one I came up with. Could be right, could be wrong. Let's see where it's at.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, you say people who view negotiation as a battle of arguments become overwhelmed by the voices in their head. Negotiation is not an act of battle, it's a process of discovery.


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[Assistant] The goal is to uncover as much information as possible.


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[Assistant] And that goes back to what we already talked about. I'm looking for the best way of doing it. You're looking for a deal that works.


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[Assistant] Uh, to quiet the voices in your head, make your soul and all-encompassing focus the other person and what they have to say. Which means we're listening.


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[Assistant] Going too fast is one of the mistakes all negotiators are prone to making.


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[Assistant] If we're in too much of a hurry, people can feel as if they're not being heard. You risk undermining the rapport and trust you've built. Gotta get used to that silence.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Next one. Put a smile on your face. When people are in a positive frame of mind, they think more quickly and are more likely to collaborate and problem solve instead of fight and resist. Positivity creates mental agility in both you and your counterpart. All good stuff.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The stories that you wrap around these where people can get the examples of what you did and where you used these. So get the book so you can get some of those examples. Uhm, three voice tones available to negotiators. Number one, the late night FM DJ voice.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Use selectively to make a point. Inflect your voice downward, keeping it calm and slow. When done properly, you create an aura of authority and trustworthiness without triggering defensiveness.


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[Assistant] Number two, the positive playful voice. This should be your default voice. It's a voice of an easy going good natured person. Your attitude is light and encouraging. The key here is to relax and smile while you're talking.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Number three, the direct or assertive voice used rarely will cause problems and create pushback.


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[Assistant] We did a podcast a while ago on something called Psychological Reactance.


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[Assistant] It's just a natural reaction that everybody has and it causes, that's what allows reverse psychology to work. Cause when I say, Oh Chris, you can't do this. You go, yes I can. Right. When I say, uh, you, you couldn't paint that fence all by yourself. You go, yes I could. You go do it.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You say, don't feel their pain, label it. Emotions are one of the main things that derail communication.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Once people get upset at one another, rational thinking goes out the window. That's why instead of denying or ignoring emotions, good negotiators identify and influence them. They are able to precisely label emotions those of others and especially their own.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And once they label the emotions, they talk about them without getting wound up. For them, emotion is a tool. Emotions aren't obstacles, they are a means. The relationship between an emotionally intelligent negotiator and their counterpart is essentially therapeutic.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It duplicates that of a psychotherapist with a patient. The psychotherapist pokes and prods to understand his patient's problems and then turns the responses back onto the patient to get him to go deeper and change his behavior. That's exactly what good negotiators do.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Getting to this level of emotional intelligence demands opening up your senses, talking less, and listening more.


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[Assistant] Can learn almost everything you need and a lot more than other people would like you to know simply by watching and listening, keeping your eyes peeled, your ears open and your mouth shut.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Talk to me about labeling a little bit. How are we using it? What does it look like?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Borderline catastrophic mistake that we can make, which is you come into my office, you're all mad, and I look at you and say, calm down, you're mad. Right? So, the difference here is, it seems like you're really mad about this.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] What, how much gear is it that you're missing? So immediately, I show you that I'm on your side, I show you that I'm also mad about it, but we start moving towards a solution. As opposed to like, well, you need to calm down before you come in here, or hey, you need to take ownership of this. Like, cool, we can get there, but...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Little, this is like a very similar idea to reflect and diminish.


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[Assistant] So this is similar to, oh, this is what you think about a certain subject, which now I'm reading back to you. Hey, you think that the past 200 years has been anti-Islamic governments?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] This would be, it seems like you're angry about the way the Islamic world's been treated.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, you say here, as you try and insert tools of tactical empathy into your daily life, I encourage you to think of them as extensions of natural human interactions as not, and not artificial conversational tics. In any interaction, it pleases us to feel that the other side is listening and acknowledging our situation.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Butcher counter creating empathetic relationship and encouraging your counterpart to expand on their situation as a basis of healthy interaction. Now this is something I say to people a lot.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You need to say, hey I really want to learn what you know, I really want to understand what you're thinking here. Because if you're trying to act, you're going to fail. Most people are going to fail when they're trying to act.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So if you come in there and you're just trying to butter me up with some little conversation, I'm gonna smell it. Most people are gonna smell that. I know when I, the reason I know that is because when I was a young seal.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I was the youngest and most junior guy in my first two SEAL platoons. So when, you know, the boss would come in...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] We all, we, you know, whatever bullshit he was throwing, we'd see right through it. Like, okay, I see what's really going on here. Intent's gonna have a smell. So, it should be earnest. All this stuff should be earnest.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, you go on to say some key points here.


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[Assistant] Imagine yourself in your counterpart situation. The beauty of empathy is that it doesn't demand that you agree with the other person's ideas. You may well find them crazy, but by acknowledging the other person's situations, you immediately convey that you're listening. And once they know you are listening, they may tell you something you can use. So boom.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The reasons why a counterpart will not make an agreement with you are often more powerful than why they will make a deal.


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[Assistant] So focus first on clearing the barriers to agreement. Denying barriers or negative influences gives them credence. Get them into the open. What do you mean by that?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Which part? Uh, you and I are talking and what barriers are you looking at? What barriers?


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[Assistant] Isn't because I can't find common ground, it's just that there's these barriers that I have that are, that are worse.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I've had this thought a couple times already during this discussion, it's, and it just hit me again.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The idea of talking about the negatives, you know, right now in the veteran community, there's a huge, you know, issue with PTSD and veteran suicide, and I've talked about this before. When I've lost my friends in combat,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Every time I've been a guy that was like, okay, you're giving the eulogy, you're giving a memorial speech, so I had to go and sit down in the pain and sorrow and write down


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] What I'm going to say to a crowd of people, you know, in a day or two days and what you end up doing is you end up thinking through and putting on paper like, you know, this terrible situation.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And then, you know, coming out of the military, when I got out of the military, I was talking to people, telling the leadership lessons that I've learned, but in telling the leadership lessons that I've learned, you're also talking through some of the really bad things that happened.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So, as I hear you say that, look, you gotta get those negatives out there. I tell veterans that a lot. You know, get, it helps when you talk through these things. You know, they say that about World War II versus Vietnam. World War II?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You got done with World War II, what did you do? You got on a ship with a bunch of other guys that just were in combat and you sailed back to America for six weeks and you sat below decks and told stories to each other about the friends that you lost and all the stuff that you've been through.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Well, in Vietnam, what did you do? You got done with your tour, you got on a plane for 15 hours, and then you got dropped off in Main Street America, you didn't get to process it, you didn't get to talk about any of this stuff. So it was stuck there. Yeah, and then you got yelled at.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So yeaah, this idea of getting the negatives out there, even though it's uncomfortable, and it is uncomfortable, sucks. No one wants to do it. But if you do it,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You start to deal with them. You start to contend with it. And I can tell you right now, the more you do it, the more you process it and the better you're going to feel.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It's not even just a negotiation thing, this is like a life thing. Yeaah. Uhm.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Getting used to that silence thing. Label your counterparts fears to defuse the power.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] We all want to talk about happy stuff, but remember the faster you interrupt action in your counterparts amygdala


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[Assistant] The part of the brain that generates fear, the faster you can generate feelings of safety, well-being, and trust. Same idea, right? Yeah. If we talk about that thing that is pissing you off, or that thing that's scaring you, the minute you let it out of that cage, it like loses some of its power. Right.


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[Assistant] You know, when we work with explosives, we do something called tamping the explosives. Which means you compress that, you hold that thing in, and it's gonna cause more damage. So, when you cover up an explosive, it creates a bigger explosion.


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[Assistant] That's why you see like a kid puts a firecracker in a microwave oven and it causes a, cause the microwave oven is shut and there's massive overpressure and it blows the door, you know, 150 yards.


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[Assistant] Because you compressed it. Well it's the same thing with this fear that you're talking about. You let that thing out. Let it breathe. It's gonna take the sting off of it.


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[Assistant] That's why, you know, you just talked about this with Steve Jobs. List the worst things that the other party could say about you and say them before the other person can. This is counterintuitive.


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[Assistant] What's counterintuitive about this is, I think to myself, you know, if I actually tell Chris that it seems like I'm ripping him off,


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[Assistant] He's thinking that. You're thinking, if I'm thinking that, hey, this price is probably high, he's definitely thinking the price is high.


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[Assistant] Remember you're dealing with a person who wants to be appreciated and understood, so use labels to reinforce and encourage positive perception dynamics. There you go. I mean this is just, uh, some awesome techniques here. Uh.


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[Assistant] The opening of chapter 4 here is kind of a surprise. Beware of yes and master no. Right.


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[Assistant] At some point in their development, all negotiators have to come to grips with no.


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[Assistant] When you come to realize the real psychological dynamic behind it, you'll love the word. It's not just that you lose your fear of it, but that you can come to learn what it does for you and how you can build deals out of it. Yes and maybe are often worthless, but no always alters the conversation. Talk us through that.


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[Assistant] Go on to say, No has a lot of skills. No allows real issues to be brought forth. No protects people from making and lets them correct ineffective decisions. No slows things down so people can freely embrace their decisions and their agreements they enter into.


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[Assistant] No helps people feel safe, secure, emotionally comfortable, and in control of all their decisions. No moves everyone, everyone's efforts forward.


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[Assistant] A thing that you point out here which is important.


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[Assistant] Because you say, using this chapter's tools in daily life is difficult for many people because they go directly against one of society's biggest social dictums. That is, be nice. Right? Especially because in the book you're like, hey, smile, be pleasant.


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[Assistant] And, and, you know, getting people to say no is one of those things. You say we've instrumentalized niceness in a way


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[Assistant] As a way of greasing the social wheels, yet it's often a ruse. We're polite and we don't disagree to get through daily existence with the least degree of friction. But by turning niceness into a lubricant, we've leeched it of meaning. A smile and a nod might signify, get me out of here as much as it means nice to meet you.


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[Assistant] That's death for a good negotiator who gains their power by understanding their counterpart's situation and extracting information about their counterpart's desires and needs. Extracting that information means getting the other party to feel safe and in control.


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[Assistant] And while it may sound contradictory, the way to get there is by letting the other party, by getting the other party to disagree, to draw their own boundaries, to define their desires as a function of what they do not want.


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[Assistant] The two- the two examples you- is now a bad- is now a bad time to talk?


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[Assistant] Versus, do you have a few minutes to talk? Like when someone calls you up on the phone and says, hey do you have a few minutes to talk right now?


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[Assistant] I want to say no, but I also kind of feel like when I say yes, like, what do we get? But when someone says, hey, is it a bad time to talk right now? I'm like, no, it's not a bad time. I'm like okay with it. It's just one of those things.


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[Assistant] The other thing that you got in here that really aligns a lot with what I talk about a lot is uhm,


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[Assistant] Negotiate in their world. Persuasion is not about how bright or smooth or forceful you are. It's about the other party convincing themselves that the solution you want is their own idea.


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[Assistant] So don't beat them with logic or brute force. Ask them questions that open past your goals. It's not about you.


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[Assistant] I say all the time, written in these books, make it their idea.


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[Assistant] Right, how can I make this their idea? And the other thing I say a lot is,


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[Assistant] The crisis negotiation unit, the FBI crisis negotiation unit developed what is a powerful staple in the high stakes world of crisis negotiation, the behavioral change stairway model, BCSM.


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[Assistant] Behavioral Change Stairway Model. The model proposes five stages. Active listening, empathy, rapport, influence, and behavioral change.


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[Assistant] That take any negotiator from listening to influencing behavior. The origins of this model can be traced back to the great American psychologist Carl Rogers who proposed that real change can only come when a therapist accepts that the client as he or she is


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[Assistant] An approach known as unconditional positive regard. The vast majority of us, however, as Rogers explained, come to expect that love, praise and approval are dependent on saying and doing things people consider correct. That is because for most of us, positive regard


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[Assistant] So they come up with this thing, active listening, that's the first step, empathy, alright, I kinda see where you're coming from, rapport, now we're starting to understand each other.


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[Assistant] Influence, you're starting to listen to what I have to say and then behavior change. You're actually going to do something different based on the influence here.


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[Assistant] Uh, if you successfully take someone up the behavioral change stairway, each stage attempting to engender more trust and more connection, there will be a breakthrough.


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[Assistant] Moment when unconditional positive regard is established and you can begin exerting influence after years of refining the staircase and its tactics. I can teach anyone how to get to that moment.


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[Assistant] But as legions of B-school grads weaned on the most famous negotiating book in the world, Getting DS, have ultimately discovered you more than likely think, more than likely haven't gotten there yet if what you're hearing is the word yes. You'll soon learn the sweetest two words in any negotiation are actually, that's right.


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[Assistant] That's what you're looking for. You're looking for the other person, the person that you're negotiating with to say, that's right. The that's right breakthrough usually doesn't come at the beginning of a negotiation. It's invisible to the counterpart when it occurs and they embrace what you've said. To them, it's a subtle epiphany. So, talk to us about that's right.


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[Assistant] Yeah, the, the example, and again, the details in the book are, are outstanding, but the example that you give goes back to the thing that I opened up with. You had Sabaya, this mastermind terrorist.


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[Assistant] And you were in negotiations with them and you're actually working through a translator


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[Assistant] And the translator was a hard ass, you know, pretty much, let's, we need to go at him type of attitude. And you kind of convinced him over time to take a less, a more indirect approach. And, and eventually the, the negotiator kind of read back.


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[Assistant] Hey look, you've been oppressed for this long, the Spanish came here, they converted your people against their will, and you've been suffering underneath this government. And Sabaya says, that's right.


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[Assistant] And that's what changes it. That's what changes his attitude. Yeaah. Yeaah.


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[Assistant] There's a big difference. And you pointed out in the book.


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[Assistant] There's a huge difference and you mentioned it, but I just want to cover it again just to make sure people catch this.


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[Assistant] There's a huge difference between that's right and your right. Right. Cause your right,


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[Assistant] Anyway, here's a good way to, here's a good way to translate this, you know, you're talking to your wife, and you know, you say something, she goes, oh, you're right.


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[Assistant] That is not what we're looking for. That means she wants you to shut up and she's gonna carry on and you haven't come to any kind of conclusion.


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[Assistant] That's an increase in hostilities. That just means they're looking for another way to attack you.


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[Assistant] The win-win mindset pushed by so many negotiation experts is usually ineffective and often disastrous. At best it satisfies neither side. And if you employ it with a counterpart who has a win-lose approach, you're setting yourself up to be swindled. Of course, as we've noted previously, you need to keep


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[Assistant] The kind that creates a dynamic in which deals can be made, but you have to get rid of that naivete.


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[Assistant] To make my point on compromise, let me paint an example. A woman wants her husband to wear black shoes with a suit, but her husband doesn't want to. He prefers brown shoes. So what do they do? They compromise. They split the difference. They meet half ways, halfway. And you guessed it. He wears one black shoe and one brown shoe.


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[Assistant] Is this the best outcome in fact? No, in fact it's the worst possible outcome. Either of the two outcomes, black or brown, would have been better.


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[Assistant] I'm here to call bullshit on compromise right now. We don't compromise because it's right. We compromise because it's easy and because it saves face. We compromise in order to say that at least we got half the pie.


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[Assistant] Distilled to his essence, we compromise to be safe. Most people in negotiation are driven by fear or by the desire to avoid pain. Too few are driven by their actual goals. So don't settle. Here's a simple rule. Never split the difference.


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[Assistant] Accommodation and compromise produce none of that. You've got to embrace the hard stuff. That's where the great deals are and that's what negotiators do.


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[Assistant] Now, how does that, we're gonna get into, I think we're gonna cover it, but the, uh, the Ackerman approach. Right.


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[Assistant] Now, in the Ackerman approach, you're shooting for a specific number. Right. And, you know, you're kinda compromising to get to that number. Nope.


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[Assistant] Why? Well, if you're shooting for a specific number, why is that a compromise? Okay, as long as you get your number. But, that's my number.


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[Assistant] Uh, meaning you wanna, you wanna sell me this car for $10,000. I only wanna give you $7,000. My first offer is a lowball offer. Right. And then I come up.


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[Assistant] When my first offer is 65% of what I want to pay, then I go 85, 95, then 100% of what I want to pay. Right. So I guess we didn't split the difference.


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[Assistant] You talk about here, time is one of the most critical, crucial variables in any negotiation. The simple passing of time and its sharper cousin, the deadline are the screw that pressures every deal to conclusion.


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[Assistant] Whether your deadline is real and absolute or merely a line in the sand, it can trick you into believing that doing a deal now is more important than getting a good deal. Deadlines regularly make people say and do impulsive things that are against their best interests because we all have a natural tendency to rush as a deadline approaches.


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[Assistant] Yeah, I've done a lot of deals like on the way to the airport or on our way out and that's when the discussion actually starts. Right. Not optimal. Right. Uh, skipping ahead a little bit in the book, the F word, why it's so powerful, when to use it and how. The most powerful word in negotiations is fair. Right.


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[Assistant] Once you understand what a messy emotional and destructive dynamic fairness can be, you can see why fair is a tremendously powerful word and you need to use it with care. In fact, of the three ways that people drop the F-bomb


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[Assistant] Only one is positive. The most common is a judo-like defensive move that destabilizes the other side. This manipulation usually takes the form of something like, we just want what's fair.


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[Assistant] Think back to the last time someone made this implicit accusation of unfairness to you. And I bet you have to admit...


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[Assistant] That it immediately triggered feelings of defensiveness and discomfort. These feelings are often subconscious and lead to irrational concession.


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[Assistant] The second use of the F-bomb is more nefarious. In this one, your counterpart will basically accuse you of being dense or dishonest by saying, we've given you a fair offer.


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[Assistant] Following that with a label, it seems like you're ready to provide evidence that supports that. Which alludes to the opening of their books or otherwise handing over information that will either contradict their claim to fairness or give you more data to work with than you had previously. Right away, you declaw the attack. The last use of the F word is my favorite because it's positive and constructive.


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[Assistant] Here's how I use it. Early on in a negotiation I say, I want you to feel like you're being treated fairly at all times, so please stop me at any time if I'm being unfair, and we'll address it.


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[Assistant] It's simple and clear and sets me up as an honest dealer. With that statement, I let people know it's okay to use the word with me if they use it honestly. As a negotiator, you should strive for reputation of being fair. Your reputation precedes you. Let it precede you in a way that paves success.


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[Assistant] And you know when I, what I, sometimes when I think of, when I can't quite make a connection, I think of the opposite, and what,


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[Assistant] So it's the same thing here, this, this F-bomb. When it gets dropped on you, someone goes, hey we just want what's fair. What do you mean I'm not being fair?


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[Assistant] Got a section in here, bend their reality. You start going to some of the methodologies of that. Anchor their emotions. To bend your counterparts reality, you have to start with the basics of empathy.


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[Assistant] So start out with an accusation, with an accusation audit, acknowledging all of their fears by anchoring their emotions in preparation for a loss. You inflame the other side's loss aversion so that they'll jump at the chance to avoid it. You talk about loss aversion and people are, people don't want to lose.


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[Assistant] And, and this, uh, accusation audit is sort of what Steve Jobs put up on the board when he did it himself. Right, right. Uhm, Iger could have done it if he'd...


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[Assistant] If he had stepped up to the thing and said, well, you're probably gonna say this and this and this, but he got Steve Jobs to do it, which is even better. Uh, but you anchor those emotions.


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[Assistant] So this is what we hear all the time in negotiations. You know, you don't say the number first. How much do you want? How much will you give me for the car? Well, what do you think it's worth? Like, we do this around and around, right?


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[Assistant] One of the disadvantages is the advantages of opening. Or giving the number.


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[Assistant] You're also talking here about if people are stuck on the money, you can start talking about other things. Right. The non-monetary terms. Right. So like if you're negotiating for a job, you start talking about things that don't have anything to do with money. Right. And that can be a good way to start to move the conversation forward. The, uh,


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[Assistant] This is just interesting psychology. The biggest thing to remember, when you do get to numbers, you say the biggest thing to remember is that numbers that end in zero inevitably feel like temporary placeholders, guesstimates that you can easily be negotiated off of.


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[Assistant] Feels like a figure that you came to as a result of thoughtful calculation. Such numbers feel serious and permanent to your counterpart, so use them to fortify your offers.


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[Assistant] That's, and yet, go look at the prices in a store. Right? We see examples of it everywhere. Yeaah. They're all...


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[Assistant] Is it? Some songs, yea. Oh, I guess it's all like streaming and all this stuff now. You don't really buy, well actually I don't. I buy like the whole thing, whatever that is.


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[Assistant] Some key points. All negotiations are defined by a network of subterranean desires and needs. Don't let yourself be fooled by the surface once you know.


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[Assistant] That the Haitian kidnappers want a party, want party money, you'll be better, you'll be miles better prepared. And there's a whole section in here about that. About these Haitian kidnappers. You did, you worked


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[Assistant] It's awesome. Uh, splitting the difference is wearing one black and one brown shoe. Don't compromise. Meeting halfway often leads to bad deals for both sides. Approaching deadlines entice people to rush the negotiating process. Do impulsive things that are against their best interests. We talked about the F word.


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[Assistant] You can bend your counterpart's reality by anchoring his starting point. Before you make an offer, emotionally anchor them by saying how bad it will be. When you get to numbers, set an extreme anchor to make your real offer seem reasonable.


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[Assistant] Or use a range to seem less aggressive. The real value of anything depends on what vantage point you're looking at it from.


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[Assistant] And last people tend, people take more risks to avoid a loss than realize a gain.


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[Assistant] Make sure your counterpart sees that there is something to lose by inaction. That's why the, that's why the website says TODAY ONLY.


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[Assistant] You got a section in here that's about, fast forward a little bit, calibrated quest, calibrate your questions.


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[Assistant] We kind of discussed this earlier if we were recording or not, but I talked about asking earnest questions as a leader you're asking earnest questions and you've got this little bit


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[Assistant] Similar approach, but uh, different verbiage here. Calibrated questions are not just random requests for comment. They have a direction. Once you figure out where you want a conversation to go, you have to design the question that will ease the conversation in that direction while letting the other guy think, think it's his choice to take you there.


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[Assistant] That's why I refer to these questions as calibrated questions. You have to calibrate them carefully, just like you would calibrate a gun, sight or a measuring scale to target a specific problem. The good news is, is that there are rules for that. First off, calibrated questions avoid verbs like can, is, are, do or does.


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[Assistant] These are close ended questions that can be answered with a simple yes or no. Instead, they start with a list of words.


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[Assistant] People know as reporters questions, who, what, when, where, why, and how. Those words inspire your counterpart to think and then speak expansively. But let me cut that list even further. It's best to start with what, how, and sometimes why.


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[Assistant] Nothing else. Who, when and where will often just get your counterpart to share a fact without thinking. And why can backfire, regardless of what the language, what language the word why is translated into, it's accusatory.


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[Assistant] There are very rare moments when this is to your advantage. The only time you can use why successfully is when defending, when defensiveness that is created supports the change you are trying to get them to see. Why would you ever change from the way you've always done things to try my approach as an example?


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[Assistant] You know, I, I often talk about something, uh, from a military perspective called the indirect approach, which means I don't want to attack you head on, I want to, you know, I want to attack you from a flank, where you're not defensive.


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[Assistant] And this applies to everything, it applies to leadership, it applies to approaching people, it applies to, you know, if you've got an ego, which everyone does, and I attack your plan, that means I'm attacking your ego, you're gonna get defensive. So,


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[Assistant] You know, often times it's in order to get around your ego, I'm going to ask you earnest questions about the situation. But the key thing that you've got here is, I don't say, well why do you think this is a good plan? Because that's an accusatory question.


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[Assistant] And all of a sudden we've got, we've taken away any possibility that you can see that I'm accusing or attacking your plan, which thereby is attacking your ego.


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[Assistant] How did you come across this calibrated questions idea?


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[Assistant] Fast forward a little bit here, you got a couple things that are awesome points. Don't try to force your opponent to admit that you are right.


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[Assistant] Aggressive confrontation is the enemy of constructive negotiation. I always say when you're dealing with someone, give them an out. You know, you just give them an out.


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[Assistant] Again, this isn't just for negotiation, this is for life. Bite your tongue.


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[Assistant] When you're, when you're attacked in a negotiation, pause and avoid angry emotional reactions. Instead, ask your counterpart a calibrated question.


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[Assistant] Just such a, such a solid move that will keep you out of trouble. You wanna say something back?


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[Assistant] You know, I, I actually go, I, I tell people, you know, someone starts attacking you or someone, someone starts getting aggressive with you. You know, take a step back, kind of nod your head, show them that you're listening. Don't say anything back to them, instead ask them a question. You know, that's going to be a good way to go forward. Uh,


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[Assistant] And two famous studies on what makes us like or dislike somebody. UCLA psychology professor Albert Mahabrian. Totally murdered that one.


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[Assistant] Sorry there Albert. We'll call him Albert. Dr. Albert.


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[Assistant] While these figures mainly relate to situations where we are forming an attitude about someone, the rule nonetheless offers a useful ratio for negotiators. You see body language and tone of voice, not words, are our most powerful assessment tools.


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[Assistant] There, your face gives away so much and it doesn't even matter what you're saying. The look that you have on your face is just, just giving away the way you feel and it doesn't even matter what your words are.


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[Assistant] Did you feel like you had to learn to, uh, you know, control your facial expressions? I got my, my business partner and my friend, Leif Babin.


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[Assistant] You know, he, when we first started working together,


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[Assistant] When he was pissed, you knew it, and so did everybody else. It was like, his face would turn red, you could see how mad he was.


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[Assistant] Started to learn how to not do that. Is that something that you see people have to recognize and then get themselves trained up on?


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[Assistant] Let me ask you this. So I've been talking about leadership. You're talking about, you write about negotiation. How much interaction, because there's also a ton of similarities with interrogators. How much


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[Assistant] Interaction did you have with interrogators? I mean I obviously worked with a ton of interrogators in a bunch of different organizations. How much, how much work did you do with interrogators?


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[Assistant] Same thing with leadership. We might as well throw leadership in there as well. Agreed.


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[Assistant] That task, but eventually you're looking for another job.


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[Assistant] So yeaah, those, those similarities building relationships across the board. So you just mentioned the analyst, that's one type of person and you got a whole section here about


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[Assistant] Not only you, what kind of negotiator are you, cause you gotta know yourself, but then also how are you gonna interact with these people. You got the analyst that you talked about, which is methodical, diligent, they're not in a big rush. You talked about them. Uh, tell me about the accommodator.


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[Assistant] Yeah, no, it's like what I talked about earlier, like me punching you in the face with the truth is not a good way to get you to listen.


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[Assistant] There's not a lot of people like, oh thank you for being that direct person and telling me how jacked up I am. Usually, oh look, do you occasionally get someone that loves to get coached and love to get told what they, yeah you get some people, a lot of times it just offends them.


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[Assistant] So, so when you take these three different personality types, negotiator types, are we looking to blend?


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[Assistant] Uhm, just FYI for people that are about to order this book, you also kind of give


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[Assistant] How do you deal with the accommodator? How do you deal with the assertive? So, you give both sides of the spectrum. Uh, fast forward a little bit. We mentioned this briefly, this, this Ackerman bargain, bargaining.


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[Assistant] And this is the, I call the system the Ackerman model because it came from this guy named Mike Ackerman, an ex-CIA guy who founded a kidnap for ransom consulting company based out of Miami. On many kidnappings we'd constantly be paired with Ackerman guys.


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[Assistant] Never Mike himself who helped design this haggle. And you lay out this haggle. It's a systemized and easy remember process that has only four steps.


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[Assistant] Then you set your first offer at 65% of your target price. Then you calculate three raises of decreasing increments, 85, 95, and then 100%.


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[Assistant] Use lots of empathy in different ways of saying no to get the other side to counter before you increase your offer. When calculating the final amount, use precise non-round numbers like 37,893 rather than 38,000.


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[Assistant] It gives the number credibility and weight on your final number. Throw a non-monetary item that you probably don't want to show you're at your limit. So this is a pretty cool little system.


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[Assistant] Uh, getting into this last, it might be the last chapter. Find the black swan. And we haven't mentioned this yet, but you've got the black swan group. This is your consulting firm. And


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[Assistant] Quick description of the black swan. Black swan theory tells us that things happen that were previously thought to be impossible.


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[Assistant] Or never thought of it all. This is not the same as saying that sometimes things happen against a one in a million odds, but rather that things never imagined do come to pass.


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[Assistant] The idea of the back black swan was popularized by Nassim Taleb in his best selling books, Fooled by Randomness and the Black Swan. But the term goes back much further. Until the 17th century, people could only imagine white swans because all swans


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[Assistant] William Devlamin, sorry, people of Holland, went to Western Australia. You just apologized to Holland, didn't you? Yea, I did indeed. Apologies to Holland. Went to Western Australia in 1697 and saw a black swan. Suddenly the unthinkable and unthought was real.


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[Assistant] This is a crucial concept in negotiation. In every negotiation session there are different kinds of information. There are those things we know, like our counterpart's name and their offer and our experiences from other negotiations. Those are known knowns. There are those things we are certain that exist but we don't know, like possibility that the other side might get sick and leave us without another counterpart.


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[Assistant] Those are known unknowns and they are like poker wild cards. You know they're out there but you don't know who has them. But most important are those things we don't know that we don't know.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Piece of information we've never imagined that would be game changing if uncovered. Maybe our counterpart wants the deal to fail because he's leaving for a competitor. These unknown unknowns are black swans.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So this is obviously something highly important to you since you named your company The Black Swan. How did you stumble upon this idea?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Is, you know, at one point you're talking about a case you've got a guy that's, you know, uh, drives to, drives to Washington D.C. in a tractor, he's gonna blow himself up, he's gonna blow up, uh, some of the, yeah.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And, you know, he's saying he's gonna blow himself up. Uhm, but, you actually have...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You're having conversations with them and you've got multiple people listening.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Because listening is so important that if you look if you can get more more than one person you get two or three or four people listening to the conversation and They're gonna pick things up that someone else might miss and studying the transcript So you had someone on the team that realized number one. He was a veteran How can we utilize that and then someone realized he was like of?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I don't want to say fundamentalist Christian, but a very strong Christian and you had a certain religious thing going on. So you're able to utilize these things that people caught.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Just gonna hit some of these. Last section of the book I'll cover. But I just want to hit some of these highlights here.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Let what you know, your known knowns, guide you, but not blind you.