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[Assistant] I guess that the theory or the principle of perseverance means we're gonna continue to do this. My problem with that is that is how do you end up then or do you end up then with a Vietnam where we're continuing to fight even though we're not quite sure.


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[Assistant] What our end state is, what our objective is, and it's so elusive that we're not sure where to go. That one makes me a little bit hesitant.


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[Assistant] As I've talked about before, don't quit doesn't mean never give up on the m- the plan that you came up with and just keep going until you freaking either die or you achieve your goal.


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[Assistant] To maintain legal and moral authority in the conduct of operations. Legitimacy, which can be a decisive factor in operations, is based on the actual and perceived legality, morality, and rightness of the actions from the various perspectives of, perspectives of interested audiences.


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[Assistant] Together these 12 concepts form principles of joint operations.


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[Assistant] You have to have, you know, moral and legal authority. The problem I have with that is...


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[Assistant] Who gets to judge that? Because the people that you're fighting?


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[Assistant] They don't agree with what you're doing. You're not legitimate in their eyes. So how are we coming up with that? I think, I think we can.


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[Assistant] But I think we have to do that decisively. Yeaah. And say look,


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[Assistant] This is what we're trying to achieve. This is why.


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[Assistant] And if there's a bunch of people debating about it, okay, well we're going to hold off then.


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[Assistant] This needs to be stopped or this situation needs to end. Cause you do need legitimacy.


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[Assistant] You're gonna have problems really, truly accomplishing the mission.


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[Assistant] That's my point. Who gets to make that decision? It's a tough one.


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[Assistant] And I think you, I think it is actually possible to do that. I think so too. I think it is actually possible to do that. And I think the fact that we sometimes decide that hey, it's not our place to make that decision. Like, I'll give you an example. ISIS.


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[Assistant] Hey, if you're systematically raping,


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[Assistant] 8 year old, 9 year old, 10 year old girls? And boys?


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[Assistant] You don't get to do that. Right. We will come and stop you. Yeaah. That's the way it's gonna be.


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[Assistant] So, yeaah. Nazis. Guess what? You don't get to do that. Same deal, yeaah. Imperial Japanese army, rolling into China, rape of Nanking. Nope, you don't get to do that. That doesn't work. We're not okay with that. You just made the list.


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[Assistant] We seem to have a harder time doing that. We seem to think these days that evil doesn't exist.


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[Assistant] Next, next it talks about the application of the principles. Application, the principles of war, so that's, that's the, well it's now the twelve principles, but now I'm going from the new principles that were added on, back to the,


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[Assistant] We'll demonstrate that those commanders who have adhered to those principles have most often enjoyed success on the battlefield. There you go.


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[Assistant] I like the fact that they're taking these principles and broadly applying them to the past and saying, look, when


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[Assistant] This happened historically, you will have victory most of the time.


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[Assistant] There have been, of course, exceptions to the rule. However, these exceptions prove the rule that any attempt to rigidly apply all the principles to all battlefield environments may lead to defeat.


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[Assistant] The commander should recognize the need to apply the principles as flexibility.


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[Assistant] As all other tactical principles. Oh sorry, as flexibly as all other


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[Assistant] Tactical principles based on the circumstances with which he is confronted Flexibility in the application of principles is as important as flexibility in the application of combat power on the battlefield


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[Assistant] Isn't it cool to come up with principles and then just say yeah, you gotta apply them like as needed? Yeah, it's interesting. Yeah, there's a there's a there's a It shows how much you have to think as a leader. Yeah


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[Assistant] You have to look at things all the time and sometimes your principals gotta go get her back off though. And that's kinda what we did in the dichotomy of leadership because


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[Assistant] Can you make things too simple? Yes you can. Cover and move. The number one principle. Can you cover and move too much? Yes you can. Prioritize and execute. Can you prioritize and execute too much? Yes you can. What does that look like? It looks like target fixation.


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[Assistant] What does, what does cover move too much look like? It looks like you're stepping on the toes of other elements.


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[Assistant] What does too simple look like? You haven't covered all the contingencies. What does too much decentralized command look like?


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[Assistant] It looks like your people don't even know where you're supposed to be going because you haven't made it clear. You've let them go too far.


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[Assistant] Back to the book. No commander can rigidly follow the examples provided by doctrinal resources, but must modify them according to his mission, the situation, and the terrain over which he is fighting.


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[Assistant] Now what was interesting, I was looking at an air force to kind of get their perspective, similar perspective, not as detailed, but one thing that they did that was interesting was they put the other country's principles of war and compared them to our principles of war.


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[Assistant] And a lot of them are very, very close, but one of them that stood out was the former Soviet Union. And this is where we get into, you know, I was talking specifically about the USSR back in the day, back in the 80s, back in the 70s, you know, this is the other superpower in the world.


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[Assistant] And they have some interesting theories. And again, there's a little chart that I found and it kind of laid out. You know, so in America we have objective.


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[Assistant] In Great Britain and Australia they say, selection maintenance of aim. Right, so understand what your aim is.


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[Assistant] We have offense, offensive in Great Britain, Australia. They have offensive action.


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[Assistant] Use our concentration of force, what does Great Britain and Australia call it? Concentration of force. We both have economy of force. We call it maneuver, they call it flexibility.


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[Assistant] We call it unity of command. They call it cooperation, which is interesting. Cooperation is very similar to cover and move.


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[Assistant] We both have security, we both have surprise, we have simplicity. They don't have simplicity, but they have another one called maintenance of morale.


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[Assistant] Which is an interesting, important thing that maybe we left out. Why do we leave that out? It's an important one.


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[Assistant] France. They have three. Concentration of effort. That's the same as mass. Surprise. That's another one. And then their last one. Liberty of action.


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[Assistant] Which is interesting, that's decentralized command, right? Hey, you gotta go out and make things happen.


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[Assistant] They have some similar ones. Objective, they call it selection and maintenance of aim. Offense, they call it offensive action. Mass, they call it concentration of force.


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[Assistant] Maneuver, this is an interesting one. Maneuver, they call it initiative and flexibility. Again, a little bit of decentralized command sprinkled on that. Unity of command, they have coordination.


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[Assistant] The former Soviet ones, because this is one of the largest armies that ever existed, this former Soviet army. And as I was reading this little, this little chart about what the Soviets had, massing and correlation of forces, economy and sufficiency of force, initiative, surprise, mobility, tempo, I was, I was going to this, I remembered reading an old assessment of the Soviet style of warfare, back in the day.


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[Assistant] And I remembered I had some interesting takes, and I was able to find this field manual from the 80s. I want to say again, these are like from the same time period as the FM that I just read from the Marine Corps. The FM, there's updated ones which we could cover as well, but these are the old school ones. And again, it's


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] In the 80s, I mean, you wouldn't assess the Soviet Union the same now as you would then. So this, we had a manual, America had a manual called FM 102 TAC 1.


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[Assistant] The soviet army. And I thought it was kinda worth reviewing.


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[Assistant] Some of what what they talk about principles of war because again, this was like one of the largest standing


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[Assistant] Standing armies in history, it was our major foe.


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[Assistant] Uh, it was well experienced from World War II. So, figure with all that, you know, we probably could learn something from them. So, here we go. Getting into the Soviet Army a little bit and some of their principles. How they, how they rolled.


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[Assistant] Uh, it introduces it by saying the Soviet ground forces. This field mail describes the operations and tactics of Soviet general purpose ground forces. The content is based on information in Soviet writings and other open source literature. Most available information is focused on potential battle in central Europe. This is when this was a reality, folks. This is in the 80s.


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[Assistant] The Soviets believed that any future war could involve the use of nuclear weapons.


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[Assistant] And that the initial stage of the war will be decisive. This is crazy. Tactical nuclear weapons have been assigned at all levels from division up. That's crazy.


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[Assistant] Wait, so what does that mean? Everybody has nukes? Well, at the division level. So, yes, a lot of people have nukes. A lot of people have nukes.


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[Assistant] That we have. It's, it's, it's, I don't know, 500, 600, maybe 700 guys generally. And imagine 700 guys with a, with an 05, this is a, probably a 35, 40 year old guy in charge of it. They got chemical weapons on the battlefield ready to employ.


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[Assistant] And by the way, two levels above them at the division level, that's what we're talking about. Nuclear weapons.


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[Assistant] Not exactly what I love. Okay, the Soviet front. I had to put this in here. The front.


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[Assistant] Is the largest field formation in wartime. It is an operational and administrative unit and its size and composition can vary widely depending on the mission and situation.


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[Assistant] Roughly equivalent to a US or NATO army group. A front could be composed of three to five armies with organic artillery.


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[Assistant] But what is also interesting, I looked up front to see if that was a commonly used, see if that definition and


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[Assistant] It did, they didn't have it listed. They didn't have a, this is a, this is a group, an army group. They didn't list it that way. So that's interesting. Learned something new. Alright, uhm, at this time they're saying that the Soviet ground forces were like 1.8 to 2 million.


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[Assistant] And now we get into, so that just kinda lays out how this came together. Okay. The Soviet concept of war to the Soviets.


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[Assistant] War is a manifestation of the class struggle.


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[Assistant] It is an expression of the conflict between progressive forces of socialism and the reactionary forces of imperialistic capitalism, which they feel will ultimately res-


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[Assistant] Which they feel will be ultimately resolved in favor of socialism.


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[Assistant] The Soviet concept of war represents, represents a continuation of politics. Same thing that we have. We, you know, we think of war as when, when politics don't work.


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[Assistant] The Soviet military doctrine is officially accepted.


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[Assistant] The Soviet military doctrine is the officially accepted set of concepts that delineate the ways and means to achieve military objectives.


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[Assistant] Resources and geography number five history number six science and technology soviet military doctrine is based on an elaborate integrated system of thought


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[Assistant] And then it breaks it down a little bit more. And I kind of had to build that in there because it talks about military doctrine and then it talks about military science. Pretty straight forward.


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[Assistant] The reason I haven't talked about military science is because I wanted to get to this point, which is military art. And a lot of times we don't think of the Soviets, right? When you think of the Soviets, what do you think of? I know what you think. What do you think of when you think of the Soviets? Come on. When you think of the USSR, what do you think of? You're gonna let me down, bro.


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[Assistant] What do you think of when you think of like the Russians? What do you think of?


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[Assistant] Okay, as a whole, when you think of the Russians, what do you think of? If you had to characterize the Russians in one individual, who would you think of?


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[Assistant] Stalin? Ah, close. I thought you were gonna say Drago.


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[Assistant] But they go here, military art is the most important and primary field within military science and is the basis for strategy, operational art, and tactics. It is the theory and practice of conducting armed conflict. So they put this high, high,


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[Assistant] They do not represent any special revelation of truth or radical departure from traditional military thought. However, by their emphasis on these particular points, Soviet military leaders reveal the character of their military thinking and predict the basic characteristics of future Soviet military operations.


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[Assistant] According to the Soviets, their armed forces must, and here's the list, be fully prepared to accomplish the mission regardless of conditions under which war begins or must be conducted.


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[Assistant] Next, achieve surprise whenever possible. Sounds familiar. Military operations must be characterized by decisiveness and aggressiveness. Forces must strive continuously to seize and to hold the initiative. That's good information.


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[Assistant] Next, make full use of all available military assets and capabilities to achieve victory.


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[Assistant] Next. Ensure that major formations and units of all services, branches and arms affect through thorough and continuous coordination. Gotta work together, cover and move.


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[Assistant] Leaning towards centralized control, right? Centralized command as opposed to decentralized command, but they're going to reverse that later. Next be determined and decisive in achieving the assigned mission.


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[Assistant] Well, now it continues on. These are general principles that apply to all three levels of military art. Strategy, operations and tactics. At each of these levels, there are more specific detailed principles. Soviet military thought.


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[Assistant] subscribes to certain laws of war at the strategic level and principles of operational art and tactics which apply to the actual conduct of combat. So here are the laws of war.


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[Assistant] The course and outcome of war waged with unlimited employment of all means of conflict depends primarily on the correlation of available strictly military combatants at the beginning of the war.


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[Assistant] Second law, the course and outcome of the war depend on the correlation of the military potentials of the combatants. Third law, the course and outcome of war depend on its political content. Fourth law, the course and outcome of a war depend on the correlation of moral, political, and psychological capabilities of the peoples and the armies of the combatants.


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[Assistant] Here's what, in simpler terms, what these things mean. First law, be prepared.


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[Assistant] Prepare in peacetime for the next war. Forces in being are the decisive factors. The side with the most and best troops and equipment at the start of the war will win the war.


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[Assistant] That makes sense, barring any major strategic blunders. Second law.


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[Assistant] The side which can best sustain a protracted war will win the war.


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[Assistant] Makes sense. Third law. The higher the political stakes of a war the longer and more violent it will be. That's a good one.


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[Assistant] We don't recognize that sometimes. Hey, this guy's always been cool to me. But all of a sudden the stakes go up. All of a sudden we're getting stabbed. Yeaah.


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[Assistant] Or the dirt's coming out. Right? The claws come out. Yeah.


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[Assistant] When things are at stake, when more is at stake, people's true colors come out. The violence occurs.


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[Assistant] Soviet planning and preparation for war reflect a dominant feeling that war is inevitable.


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[Assistant] This is not to say that the USSR wants war, but that it is preparing for it continuously.


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[Assistant] The Soviet state is autocratic, militarized, and centralized. Its political and economic systems give priority to military requirements.


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[Assistant] The state allocates resources and directs production for preparation and maintenance of a war footing.


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[Assistant] The Soviet Union is prepared to exert itself at great expense to achieve its goal. It is a nation which through civil war, collectivization,


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[Assistant] Attendant famine and purges inflicted more than 20 million deaths on its own citizens from the Russian Revolution to the start of World War II.


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[Assistant] It is a nation that endured the loss of 20 million people during World War II. Its tolerance for sacrifice is high.


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[Assistant] That's a little something to think about. Now what's interesting is what's stronger, that or the core


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[Assistant] As the laws of war dominate strategic planning for war, so do principles of operational art and tactics govern the conduct of warfare within a given theater of operations. The popular western version of these Soviet operational and tactical principles is very brief.


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[Assistant] Objective, offense, surprise, maneuver, and mass. This list does not fairly characterize the basis


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[Assistant] The Soviets have modernized operational and tactical principles without fully abandoning their earlier ones. A good place to begin is with those classical principles that were taught by the Tsarist general staff. So these are the classic Russian military principles. Here they go.


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[Assistant] First, extreme exertion of force at the very beginning of the war. Next, simultaneity of actions.


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[Assistant] Next economy of forces, next concentration, next chief objective, the enemy's army, next surprise, next unity of action, preparation, energetic pursuit, security, initiative and dominance over the enemy's will, strength where the enemy is weak, and that's the list, that's the old


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[Assistant] Classic list and it breaks it down a little bit. The most significant points of this list are


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[Assistant] First, he who gets to the initial battle with the most wins.


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[Assistant] The enemy must be confronted with more than one situation to deal with. Ohhhhh. That's, that's how I got armlocked all those years ago. I was dealing with that choke and there came the armlock.


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[Assistant] Next, one should not be diverted by geographical objectives but should concentrate on the destruction of the enemy's military forces. Next, detailed exacting preparation must precede an attack.


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[Assistant] Design actions to preempt your opponent and keep him reacting to situations that you control.


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[Assistant] Concentrate on the enemy's weak points rather than his strengths.


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[Assistant] Contemporary military, contemporary Soviet military theorists hold that nuclear weaponry and other means of modern warfare have modified these basic principles. By the early 1970s the following principles dominated Soviet operational art and tactics.


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[Assistant] First mobility and high rates of combat operations.


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[Assistant] Next, concentration of main efforts and the creation of superiority in forces and means over the enemy at decisive place and at the decisive time. Next, surprise and security. Next, combat activeness.


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[Assistant] That's a good one. Combat Activeness. Next, Preservation of the Combat Effectiveness of Friendly Forces. Next, Conformity to the Conformity of the Goal


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[Assistant] Conformity of the goal to the actual situation.


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[Assistant] What that means is your goal can change and it can change based on the situation you're in.


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[Assistant] That is important. And the last one is coordination, which, you know, is basically cover and move.


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[Assistant] It goes on. A melding of contemporary writings and those of the recent past plus an influence of significant classical Russian principles results in the following specific Soviet principles of operational art and tactics and we go into a long list.


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[Assistant] Only by a resolute offense conducted at a high tempo and to great depth is total destruction of the enemy achieved.


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[Assistant] So we need to go hard, we need to go fast. Next, combat maneuver units must be mobile and capable of rapid movement. Next, fire support, command and control, and logistics must be as mobile as maneuver units. That makes sense.


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[Assistant] Conduct or conduct thorough and continuous reconnaissance. Find the enemy's weak points. Yes. Perform a thorough estimate of the situation and make timely analytical decisions. Be realistic.


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[Assistant] Consider the mission, enemy, your own combat power, terrain, weather,


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[Assistant] And light conditions. And time. So yeaah, you gotta look at the situation. You gotta look at it. Best thing about that, and you don't hear this very often.


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[Assistant] Be realistic. You don't hear that often enough. Next.


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[Assistant] Plan and prepare extensively and in detail.


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[Assistant] If you're coming up with an operation, you gotta involve the commanders, the people that are gonna be in the operation with you. You can't just send them an email of how you want it to go down. That's not gonna work.


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[Assistant] There must be unity of command, a signal commander for every operation. Boom. We already talked about that. Fully orchestrate all available combat means in a coordinated cooperative combined arms effort. Makes sense. Next, deceive the enemy.


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[Assistant] Attack from an unexpected direction at an unexpected time. Check. Use terrain and weather to your advantage. Check. Strike early with great force. Check.


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[Assistant] Again, I always think, when I hear that, I always think of jujitsu when someone's getting the upper hand on you, and you can't dig your way out of it.


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[Assistant] Attack the enemy violently and simultaneously throughout his depth.


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[Assistant] Carry the battle to the enemy rear with swift penetrations by maneuver units, fire, aviation, airborne, and hella-borne assaults and by unconventional warfare means.


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[Assistant] Be bold and decisive. Seize and hold the initiative.


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[Assistant] And you just need to maintain it. How do you maintain it? It's by continuing to be aggressive and not sitting back on your haunches when you got the upper hand.


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[Assistant] I do that. What, sit back on your hunches? Get a little bit of an advantage, relax too much.


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[Assistant] Let, let a little, you know, let a little time give that person time. You know when you see it as an MMA? When somebody gets dazed. Right.


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[Assistant] And the person lets him recover. Takes him a minute. Takes him a minute and thirty seconds. They don't get on that person.


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[Assistant] prosecute an operation relentlessly without pause under all conditions of visibility or


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[Assistant] This is good. Keep the enemy under constant pressure and off balance.


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[Assistant] Do not allow them to react effectively. Obviously jiu-jitsu. Fully exploit the effects of nuclear.


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[Assistant] They're thinking about how they're gonna follow up the nuclear assault. Bro.


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[Assistant] Whenever possible achieve mass by concentrated massed nuclear or non-nuclear fires rather than by massing maneuver forces.


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[Assistant] What that is actually saying is instead of using your troops, use nukes instead to get the upper hand.


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[Assistant] Coming up with the tactics. I mean obviously we have to. You have to. You have to game it out.


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[Assistant] Next, if maneuver forces must be masked, do so rapidly. Disperse them as soon as possible after the task has been achieved. Maneuver first with firepower. Firepower is maneuver. Cover and move. Get some.


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[Assistant] Maneuver forces should attack the weakest points in the enemy defenses. Yes, Sun Tzu. Thank you. We agree.


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[Assistant] If necessary, create weak points or holes with nuclear or non-nuclear fires.


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[Assistant] Bypass enemy strong points and strike deeply into his rear. Yeaah.


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[Assistant] Hey, you know what? We're gonna create a weak point with nukes. Get some.


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[Assistant] Hey, hey Colonel, hey Colonel, I gotta, I just wanna bring something up. You realize that we all die when this happens, right? Like this isn't, this isn't like a good plan. Your plan sucks.


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[Assistant] I'm gonna send this document to uh, Jordan Peterson. Cause you know how he's all paranoid about nuclear war when he was in college and that's kinda what sent him down this path of how could we get to this situation.


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[Assistant] Avoid frontal attacks wherever possible. Strike the enemy in the flanks of the rear. Obviously, we're all about flanking. Maintain security of your own flanks. Maintain sufficient follow on force to assure achievement of the mission and to deal with contingencies. Maintain uninterrupted combat support. Maintain effective continuous command and control and communications.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That's getting a little bit, you know, that's important. But sometimes I think that they were very centralized. And you can see that from when they fought in Afghanistan, that they definitely had some centralized command going on. And the units that performed well were the units that were the most decentralized, which was generally their special operations units.


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[Assistant] Maintain redundant communications at higher levels. Rely on audio and visual signals and well rehearsed battle drills at lower level. Staffs at every level must have equipment and skills necessary to collect and analyze information quickly.


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[Assistant] Employ radio-electronic combat to deprive the enemy of effective command and control of his combat forces. That means they're gonna use jammers and whatnot.


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[Assistant] Adhere, now this is where it's interesting. So as much as I talk about centralized command, adhere to the spirit and letter of a plan. If the plan fails, use initiative to accomplish the mission. Check. That's decentralized command. You can only do that if you actually know what the mission is.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Conserve fighting strength through the use of combat vehicles with collective NBC protection. Again, that's nuclear, biological, and chemical protection, dispersal of forces, minimum combat power necessary to accomplish a task, the use of captured enemy equipment, and effective logistics.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And then that's the end of the list. Obviously it's a pretty broad list, uh, but very interesting. You can see the parallels. You can see how the same themes come up over and over again. And it says this, these principles are idealistic.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] They are what the Soviets strive to achieve. They show what the Soviets would like to do, but not in all cases what they may be capable of doing. However, the principles serve as a basis from which any examination of Soviet operations and tactics must start.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And again, it's just crazy to read about this. Nuclear warfare implications. The advent of nuclear weapons caused Soviet planners to go through a long period of rethinking and revising their combined arms doctrine.


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[Assistant] Modern totally mechanized armed forces supported and threatened by weapons that can change the face of the battlefield in a matter of minutes gave a whole new meaning to the high speed combined arm operations in depth.


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[Assistant] When we talk about combined operations or combined arms in the military,


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[Assistant] I never ever thought about, hey, let's get him in the ultimate checkmate over here on this one. Bring in, bring in the tactical nukes. Again, just, just to point out the


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[Assistant] Under nuclear threatened conditions, the Soviet offensive concept would have the following features. Avoid concentrating forces. Concentrate fires, but not firing weapons.


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[Assistant] Attack across broader frontages on multiple axis. Avoid enemy strong points. Probe for enemy weak points. Penetrate where possible. Commit follow on forces when and where they can best contribute to success. Drive rapidly and deeply into the enemy rear to destroy nuclear weapons and enemy forces.


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[Assistant] Norms, initiative, and flexibility. A Soviet military doctrine includes a system of performance standards expressed in numerical forms called norms. Norms define the ideal performance in a multitude of tasks and conditions. I've talked about task conditions and standards on here before.


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[Assistant] They are used to determine such things as intervals, rates of march, frontages, logistics requirements, fire support, and training drills. Norms provide a mathematical prescription for proper action.


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[Assistant] Soviet Stereotypical like hey, we're just gonna here's the numbers plug them in and that's what we're gonna do


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[Assistant] They are formulated by historical analysis, training exercises, requirements, and gaming models.


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[Assistant] Based on norms, a given situation has an approved response. The correctness of a commander's action or his troop's response is often measured by their adherence to the established norms for that situation.


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[Assistant] The advantage of this system is that it provides a high degree of combat readiness, at least in the initial stages. Drills at the subunit level, battalion or lower, are well rehearsed. The tactical level commander is aware in advance of how well his troops can cope with time and space factors.


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[Assistant] And so there's, there's what's good about it. You have everything like laid out, like this is what we do in these situations.


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[Assistant] Back to the book, the obvious disadvantage to strict adherence to norms is less provision for the unexpected. If a situation arises for which there is no established normative response, a lower level commander might find himself in peril. Which I totally agree. That's why...


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[Assistant] I made the training super hard and crazy for the guys that I put through training so that they were ready for non-normative situations.


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[Assistant] The topic of initiative receives much attention in Soviet military writings. When a plan fails, commanders are strongly urged to use initiative as a cure-all.


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[Assistant] The Soviet perception of initiative involves finding a correct solution following normative patterns.


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[Assistant] If the commander adheres to norms and is successful, he is praised. If he violates normative patterns and fails, he is condemned. So what kind of a decentralized command do you end up there? No one wants to take any risks. Success, however, is most important. If commander solves a problem by his own devices, he is lauded. So that's cool.


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[Assistant] If you're afraid that if you make a call, and it doesn't go right, and you're gonna get in trouble for that, you know what you're gonna do? You're not gonna make a call. And that's what crushes your decentralized command.


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[Assistant] Yeah, you have to, you have to allow your kids to make some say. I, I've been saying lately you gotta let, allow your kids to brush up against the guardrails of failure. Yeah. Without smashing them. Yeah. The bumps and bruises are when a good, are what?


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[Assistant] Or what go- is going to make them formidable in life. If they never got a bump or a bruise, life's gonna hit them hard. They won't be conditioned for it.


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[Assistant] And this thing wraps up just saying these concepts are not descriptive of a rigid offensive doctrine, but one that is both mobile and flexible. So there's a little something from the


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[Assistant] From the Soviet army. And obviously, like I said, the principles of warfare. While they're nuanced and they're stated differently,


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[Assistant] And so I think it's important to see them from different angles so that you can understand them because if you understand them broadly, well then you can see them in all things.


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[Assistant] Your jujitsu better, it's gonna make your business better, it's gonna make your team better, it's gonna make you a better leader, it's gonna make you better, and it's gonna make your life better. And these, these principles have been around for a long, long time. So, that's the, that's the Soviet maneuver, warfare, doctrine. And you know, I,


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[Assistant] Also recently had to do some maneuvering myself. Sure. A little bit of maneuvering and I wanted to, uh,


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[Assistant] Bring it up, because it's interesting. Little bit of aggression. Little bit of maneuver warfare. So, I wrote another book.


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[Assistant] And the book is called Mikey and the Dragons, right? It's another kid's book.


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[Assistant] It's for younger kids, maybe a tad younger than the warrior kid crowd, right? So we're talking like four, five, six, seven, eight-ish, something like that. However.


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[Assistant] Like the Warrior Kid books, there's lessons for everyone in there.


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[Assistant] Yes, there is. Yeah, and so what's interesting, so I wrote this book. I had, I had like a vision. Does that sound too much?


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[Assistant] Okay, I, I had a vision of this book, what the story was, right? And I wrote it. I wrote the first half, the original idea just like hit me, and I just wrote it.


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[Assistant] And then a couple weeks went by as I wasn't quite sure about the ending exactly.


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[Assistant] And then one night I woke up, or 3.30 in the morning. I had the whole thing, the rest of it, and I sat down and I just wrote the rest of it.


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[Assistant] Come on, come on, come on. But when I got done, I was, I could, I realized, like I liked it. Like I realized it was something.


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[Assistant] My wife and my youngest daughter woke up that day, and I was like, hey, let me read this to you. And I read it to them. And I could tell, because as soon as I got done reading it, my daughter was like, read it again. But what was even funnier,


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[Assistant] Was my wife was looking at me. And the look on her face.


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[Assistant] Who's got a like really monotone voice but he's got young kids and I'm awesome friends with him. And I got done with it.


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[Assistant] And I was like looking at it as I was looking as I'm reading I'm not looking at him I'm looking at it right and I get done he's got this like classic monotone voice and he's like How did you even do that?


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[Assistant] And then I read it to you. Yes. And, well, you heard it. Mikey and the Dragons.


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[Assistant] So, well, from your reaction from, and I actually read it to all of my older kids as well, and got the same thing, super just like stoked on it, and a little bit of like, did you actually write that? You know, that kind of attitude.


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[Assistant] Of a kid that as you said needs to overcome some fears and it's also a story within a story.


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[Assistant] Right, so basically the fundamental thing is there's a


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[Assistant] There's a boy, his name is Mikey, he's scared of everything. That's his basic situation. And here's how he gets introduced in the book.


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[Assistant] And there were many things in the world that he didn't like. He was scared of spiders and beetles and bugs, and always thought they hid under the rugs. They were creepy, and crawly, and nasty, and mean, and he ran from every bug he'd ever seen. But it wasn't only insects that gave Mikey a scare.


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[Assistant] Eventually, after you learn about all the things that Mikey's scared of and how he kind of is...


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[Assistant] That he's scared of so many things he didn't like. And he kind of wonders why is he so scared of everything. And eventually he stumbles upon this book and the book is that there's a book that Mikey calls the Dragon Book.


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[Assistant] The Dragon Prince, but he flips this book open for a second and he sees pictures of dragons and the dragons are all crazy.


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[Assistant] And so he's a little bit scared, but there's also pictures of like a young boy in there that kinda looks like he knows what's up.


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[Assistant] And so Mikey decides that he's gonna read it. And so this is where you get the story within the story. Cause then you, you turn the page and you see the cover to this other book.


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[Assistant] Different font, different voice, different situation.


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[Assistant] He knows what he's doing in there. And anyways, the story that's within the story is it turns out that there's this little prince that lives in a kingdom where the king, who was the prince's dad, has died. And of course everyone's all sad because of that.


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[Assistant] But even more than being sad, they're actually scared because it was the king that always protected the kingdom from the dragons who lived over the hill in the dragon cave.


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[Assistant] And with the king gone, there's no one to protect the kingdom. The knights are scared, the guards are scared, the only one that everyone is looking to, to protect.


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[Assistant] The kingdom is this young prince. And here's how you get introduced to that. But now,


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[Assistant] That the king had died and was gone, there was only one person to fight and carry on.


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[Assistant] And that person wasn't big or mighty or strong. In fact, he hadn't been alive that long.


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[Assistant] Now the person who had dragons to chase was just a little boy with a smiling face. Yes, the person that now must stand up and be bold was just a little prince who was only seven years old.


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[Assistant] So, the boy eventually realizes he's gonna have to stand up and face the dragons. He goes to his father's war chest.


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[Assistant] And now he's even more scared, but then he sees at the bottom of the war chest, he sees a little note. A little note from his dad.


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[Assistant] And the prince goes forth into the fray and through those lessons from his dad and he faces the dragons and we get a result from that. And then the original character in the story, right? Mikey, he,


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[Assistant] Learns also how to face his fears. So that's the basic fundamental story and


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[Assistant] The way it came together was pretty cool and then the reactions from everyone was pretty cool. So like I said, I wanted to get it into people's hands as quickly as possible. So I talked to my publisher about this and I told him about it and I was in the middle of negotiating some other books with them and


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[Assistant] They, of course, were like, hey, we've already got these books that we're looking at, so, you know, we'll put this one on the back burner, and maybe we'll put it out in a year. And it was actually, it was 14 months.


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[Assistant] I didn't like that. So I said no, you know, hey, it's all cool, but I really wanna get this one out very quickly. Wanna get this one out. This was in the summertime. I said I wanna get this one out. Bye.


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[Assistant] I want to get this one out by, let's get it to get it to kids by Christmas, right? This is an important lesson for kids to learn. Let's get it to them by Christmas. Get it out in November so kids can get it for Christmas and learn.


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[Assistant] And they're like, no, and if I go back and forth and finally the message I get is I get message from my children's publisher because they're focused on other things. It's the way it is. They come back and say, look, there's no scenario.


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[Assistant] No scenario where this book comes out in November. There's no scenario where that happens.


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[Assistant] And then I immediately formed my own publishing company called Jocko Publishing. I talked to John Bozak who did the art for the Warrior Kid books and he was like, okay, we're going. This is due now. And he went into hyper creation mode.


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[Assistant] And the images are a lot different to Warrior Kid because they're full color and they take up full pages and they're dragons and awesomeness. And he laid out the entire book.


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[Assistant] In the past, when I would talk about pre-ordering book, you know, so you get the first edition, what not, and I would always say the publisher doesn't know, needs to know how many books to print, which is true. Now the person, the publisher, the person that needs to know how many books to print is actually me. So, if you want to get some, you need to order it. Uh, people might think that this is dumb.


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[Assistant] On my part. Which is fine. To do this. It's like a lot of taking on a lot of extra work. Probably won't make as much money. Should've done it on the normal publishing release cycle so you can get more. Like they have a whole cycle the way they average. There's a whole thing.


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[Assistant] There's a whole thing to make the book more popular and all this stuff, right?


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[Assistant] And I just had to look about it. The bottom line is that I don't really care about that. And I'll tell you what, after doing book signings and you see what the Warrior Kid book does for kids,


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[Assistant] If I make less money, whatever. If it doesn't make the New York Times bestseller list, whatever. Because this isn't about


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[Assistant] Making money or it isn't about making the list or whatever. It's it's about these kids It's about teaching kids a core lesson at a young age so that they can have a better life


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[Assistant] Justice and strength and of overcoming fears because that's what the book is about Then jump on Amazon order this book. It's called Mikey and the Dragons and I appreciate that because it'll help a lot of kids out and that is no matter what a good thing to do in this world no matter what kind of judgment you want to put


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[Assistant] If you can help out a five year old, a seven year old, a four year old little kid.


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[Assistant] So, Mikey and the Dragons. Get some. Now, obviously we're gonna help some kids get on the path with that one. Uhm.


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[Assistant] Maybe Echo, you could recommend some ways to get the, you know, basically the masses a little bit tighter on the path. You tell me.


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[Assistant] How do you recommend MEN increase their confidence?


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[Assistant] I, I, I was, at first I was kinda like, uhm, you know.


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[Assistant] I don't know that I need to answer this question. This is kind of one of those things. And then I just thought to myself, okay, realistically, how do you increase someone's confidence?


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[Assistant] Then you should do things like exercise and be physically fit. If you're physically fit,


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[Assistant] If you learn jiu-jitsu, Muay Thai, boxing, you will become more confident. Hey, does that sound like I'm a meathead? Maybe. Guess what? It's actually true. It's actually 100% true. If you're physically capable,


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[Assistant] We learn to articulate ourselves well. Okay, yes. Will you be more confident if you can speak clearly and concisely and people can understand it? Yes, you will become more confident. How do you do that? You practice, you rehearse, you carry on conversations, you read a lot.


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[Assistant] So that you have a better vocabulary. Once you're done with that, what comes next? Well...


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[Assistant] Do we lack confidence if we are in the unknown? The answer is yes. How do you get more knowledge? You study. You read.


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[Assistant] You, you do your best to learn as much as you can possibly learn.


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[Assistant] And that will increase your confidence because you'll be more comfortable in more different situations because you have more knowledge. And the final thing...


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[Assistant] Is, if you, one way of getting, this is like a self-licking ice cream cone, what am I about to say?


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[Assistant] To say, I don't know, your confidence will increase. So I can go and get interviewed by anybody, because worst case scenario, I'll say, you know, I don't know about that.


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[Assistant] I'm not, I'm not, I actually don't know anything about that. I'm gonna have to pass on that question because I'm not sure. Am I, is everyone in the world supposed to think that Jocko knows everything in the world?


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[Assistant] Can I keep, can I, am I humble enough to admit that you know what, if you quiz me about every subject in the world, I may not know it. Is that okay? It's fine. No one expects me to be an expert in anything and definitely not everything.


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[Assistant] Like, I'm pretty good at a couple things, but not an expert in anything.


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[Assistant] And so, if you do those things, you'll become more confident.


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[Assistant] There's also another aspect, and I guess this is covered by the other ones, but like, just stepping up and leading sometimes, will get you better at it. Right? Stepping up and talking to a group of people, you'll get better at it.


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[Assistant] You know what I like to, I do that more than just the random people. I don't, I usually leave people alone because I want to be left alone, right? And uh, so like, would you see me in the store?


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[Assistant] But the cash register, the, you know, the waitress, the person behind the whatever coffee thing or, you know, like I always...


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[Assistant] So the whole point of this is just to increase your confidence in communicating with other humans.


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[Assistant] Cool, cool. And speaking of aloha spirit, what were we talking about, jiu-jitsu? We were talking about confidence because in order to increase your confidence, one absolute 100% way to increase your confidence is to train jiu-jitsu. All ages. All genders.


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[Assistant] Well here's the thing. It's fun, it's fun on a whole different level.


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[Assistant] Are part of a like grand, it's like being a musician. It's like hitting a riff well.


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[Assistant] It will increase your confidence as a human. As a human being, yes sir. Sometimes it gives you too much confidence. Too much? Yes, especially early on. Yeah, especially if you're 13, 14, 15.


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[Assistant] It might be good to, if you need Jujitsu gear, which you do need some Jujitsu gear. You need what's called a gi.


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[Assistant] If you need a gi, you can get a gi from our company, which is based here in America. And we make gi's all American from the ground up. From the dirt. It's called Origin Maine. Best gi's ever. In the world too. Yeah, ever. Ever.


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[Assistant] And if you need rash guards, which you can use for jujitsu, you can also use them for weightlifting, you can use them for running and cycling, surfing, uh,


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[Assistant] And then they got supplements. We got supplements. Sure. We got supplements. We got joint warfare. We got, joint warfare is good if you're working out, if you're on the path, your joints are gonna take a beating. Joint warfare will protect them. Yeah. And heal them.


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[Assistant] Uh, krill oil. Another good one. Discipline. Good. Pre-operational. Get some. Get your mind right. Real quick. Get your body right. And then of course we have a little something called MOLK.


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[Assistant] The original flavor was mint chocolate, my favorite. We went to peanut butter from there, available. Then, vanilla gorilla. I don't like plain vanilla.


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[Assistant] I don't, I just don't like, I don't wanna, I don't wanna eat vanilla anything. Like you, unless, unless I'm eating it with some damn chocolate cake. I'm not gonna order vanilla ice cream.


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[Assistant] But what, well here's what bummed me out, as soon as I was done, I was like, whoa, I was on the road, no mulk.


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[Assistant] So when you don't have dessert, sometimes you get that little, oh I'd like a little something that tastes good to, to wash down the steak.


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[Assistant] That's a good state. And then, and then there's no mulk, cause I'm on the road. I gotta figure that out.


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[Assistant] I gotta figure that out. People give me good suggestions, I know I can put a little baggie in the thing and just grab some milk somewhere and mix it up, no factor. So I need to start doing that.


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[Assistant] So no, vanilla's not my favorite flavor. The vanilla tastes good. I was not the judge on the vanilla, you know.


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[Assistant] Pete and Brian were like, hey, the vanilla's awesome. I said, I'll try it, it tastes fine, I'm not the judge, cause I don't wanna judge something that I don't fully comprehend. I'm not deserving of being a vanilla judge, so therefore I didn't do it. And, but the darkness...


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[Assistant] Which is chocolate. The darkness. That is also freakin' delicious. And when you're getting this stuff, you'll be getting it from OriginMain. You got Cindy up there. You met Cindy. Of course. She's fired up. So when you're getting your stuff packed, it's not just being


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[Assistant] It's not just being randomly placed in a box by a robot. No, Cindy's up there. She's getting after it.


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[Assistant] And I'm gonna say one more thing. Little announce- announcement? Little announcement. So you remember when you were a little kid? Yes. And you love chocolate milk. Yes I do. And you love strawberry milk.


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[Assistant] You loved it so much. Whatever, whatever little brand name that you got, and there was a couple of them that were prominent. Sure.


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[Assistant] And they tasted delicious. And it was like dessert, and for some reason you didn't really understand why, but your parents would actually allow you to drink it all the time.


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[Assistant] Chocolate and strawberry milk that you were drinking as a kid is completely filled.


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[Assistant] And so the milk that your parents, my parents were allowing me to drink was actually a freaking net loss overall to my health because it was filled with poison. But it tasted good and you loved it. It was like a dessert you could have all the time.


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[Assistant] But it was filled with poison. So you know what we did? We fixed it. We fixed it. And we now have, available at this time, Warrior Kid Hulk.


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[Assistant] Vitamins that you need. It's got probiotics. Because kids are getting told all the time that their parents are getting told they need to take probiotics and here take this pill and that pill. No. Take warrior kid mulch. And there's no sugar in it. And it tastes freaking amazing. So.


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[Assistant] It's better than any other of these flavored whatever chocolate milk you grew up on. This tastes better.


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[Assistant] And healthier, I mean, this is what it's all about, so.


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[Assistant] Yeah, the ones that I did on the east coast, lots of kids, tons of kids, all of them on the path, fired up man, it was, it was amazing.


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[Assistant] Yeah, if they're in the gi part of it, that's cool. You go to originmain.com and you get em, you get em the warrior gi. Get some.


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[Assistant] Disciplining freedom. That's one of the things about shirts is everyone wears shirts. Yes. Even if you don't want to wear one, which I don't like wearing a shirt. Hell no. But.


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[Assistant] And truckers hats. Truckers hats on there. I'm completely stoked on my Discipline Equals Freedom hat. Are the Defcor hats out yet?


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[Assistant] Well, let's hope the Defcor hat is out soon. That's deep representing right there. What about the Defcor shirt? Is it a pure Defcor shirt? Black Ops.


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[Assistant] Alright, also we got the podcast, subscribe to it, wherever. Uh, no, don't forget the Warrior Kid Podcast. A lot of people don't know about that yet, so spread the word on the Warrior Kid Podcast. Little questions from Uncle Jake.


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[Assistant] For Uncle Jake and those stories from Uncle Jake about how he developed his...


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[Assistant] Sort of values in the world. That's the warrior kid podcast. The warrior kid soap


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[Assistant] From irishoaksranch.com Young Aidan the Warrior Kid milking goats, making soap, getting after it.


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[Assistant] Order some of that so you can stay clean. Also YouTube checkout.


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[Assistant] Which some people like, some people like em. Most people I'd say like em. You don't get a lot of thumbs down on your videos.


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[Assistant] Good. So that's good. And we got some plans for the YouTube. Gonna step it up a little bit. Yea. A little bit more I should say. Cause you stepped it up a little bit. Yea. We're gonna step it up a little bit more.


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[Assistant] No, cuz, cuz I'm human. Yeah, yeah. Anyone that thinks I'm not human, you're wrong. I'm all too human. I get tapped out in jiu-jitsu. I get what, you know what I mean? I mean it's like,


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[Assistant] Up to speed. Cause it went through a little down period. Then it got, then it got healed now that I tweaked it again. Doing something stupid. You know what I did?


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[Assistant] You know if you're working out too and you're working on that deadlift One thing you can do is if you probably if you're stuck at like a four thousand pound deadlift plateau No, we can't accept that get jockel white tea and it comes with a guarantee


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[Assistant] I don't know what kind of guarantee. So you can deadlift 8,000 pounds immediately. Probably take you like four sips. Yeah. If you can't lift, if you can't deadlift 8,000 pounds after drinking Jock-A-White tea, either the ones in a can or the ones in a tea bag,


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[Assistant] How to get after it for adults. And actually a lot of kids read this book. That's where they graduate. They graduate from Warrior Kid. I talked to a lot of parents and they're like, oh yeaah. Once, you know, now he's 14. He just read.


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[Assistant] Yeah, no, the feedback that I get, but it's the same kind of feedback I get from the kids from the field manual of people that are like, hey,


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[Assistant] The guy hit me up on Twitter, remember that story I told about being in Yosemite? Yeah. And the dude was in the river. Sure. And he was like, I was like, he recognized me and I was getting all fired up with him. And he was like, I'm here to get my mind right.


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[Assistant] I was like, yeah. Anyways, the guy's friend hit me up on Twitter. And that dude's name is Meth. That's his name. His name is Meth. Meth? Meth. M-E-T-H. Like the drug. Straight up. Yea, got it. But he was not a meth user. That just happens to be his name.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Echelon front. That's my leadership consultancy. We solve problems through leadership. It's me. It's Leif Babin. It's J.P. Dinell. It's Dave Burke. It's Flynn Cochran, Mike Cirelli, and Mike Bahama.


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[Assistant] Don't call a speaking agency. If you want us to come and talk to you or your company, email us, info at echelonfront.com. Muster 006 in San Francisco, October 17th and 18th, uh, sold out. Sorry.


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[Assistant] Last thing, we've got EF Overwatch, which is connecting spec ops veterans and companies that need experienced leaders ready to go. If you're a company that needs leadership, leadership that understands and operates within the principles of extreme ownership,


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[Assistant] Go to EFOverwatch.com if you're a Spec Ops vet, if you're a former combat aviator.


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[Assistant] Go to efoverwatch.com and we will connect you two together.


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[Assistant] And if anyone out there has questions or answers for us, you can find us out there on the interwebs, on Twitter, on Instagram, and on


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[Assistant] Echo is at Echo Charles and I am at Jocko Willink and thanks to all military, police, law enforcement, correctional officers, firefighters, border patrol, paramedics, all first responders. It was great meeting so many of you at Roll Call. It was just awesome to meet you all.


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[Assistant] Ended a bunch of the other events I've done in the past couple weeks, the book signings and what not.


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[Assistant] Knowing that you all are out there holding the line and watching our six and protecting our flanks is awesome. And I'll tell you what, I do not take it for granted. I do not take it for granted that you're there. And no one should. So thanks to you all.


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[Assistant] For doing what you do and for everyone else that is out there, remember the way and remember that you can use it everywhere in everything that you do.


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[Assistant] And of course, you do all those things by stepping out into the fray.


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[Assistant] This is Jocko Podcast number 142 with Echo Charles and me, Jocko Willink. Good evening, Echo. Good evening.


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[Assistant] S. L. A. Marshall could be a braggart of the First Order.


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[Assistant] I could write on toilet paper with a crayon and sell it. Was a routine boast. But his favorite claim to fame...


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[Assistant] Was at first the most puzzling to me, and years later the most significant in terms of unraveling the hustler and the phony that he was. And how he was nonetheless able to make such a mark on the US Army.


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[Assistant] Slam regularly brought up the fact that the army had made him a general despite his never having attended even one military school and that he was the only general in the army to have this distinction.


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[Assistant] He neglected to say, and never would have had I not followed up out of sheer curiosity that he'd gotten his star not in the regular army, but in the reserves. Meanwhile,


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[Assistant] With no reason not to believe him, I accepted Slam's story of World War I.


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[Assistant] His experiences as an infantryman in all the major campaigns. His battlefield commission to become the youngest second lieutenant in the U.S. Army during the war. The romantic tale he spun of Armistice Day when he saw in the end of the war sharing his canteens with his brigade commander in the trenches.


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[Assistant] In which Slam repeated the stories endlessly in which his reputation was only further bolstered as one or the other appeared in everything from current biography 1953 to the obituaries upon his death in 1977 and in his autobiography published two years later before I would discover it was all a lie. Slam had been an enlisted man.


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[Assistant] With the 315th Engineer's 90th Infantry Division during World War I and spent his time not fighting as an infantryman, but repairing French road- roads until just before the war's end.


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[Assistant] He had not been battlefield commissioned and he wasn't anywhere near the trenches on 11 November 1918 in being instead at the army France based officer candidate school then called infantry candidate school the self-proclaimed youngest lieutenant in World War one who in fact never served


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[Assistant] An officer in any outfit, regular or reserve in any capacity ever was not commissioned until April, 1919, long after the last angry shots were fired.


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[Assistant] According to his service record, SLAM saw no infantry combat in World War II either.


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[Assistant] Although he was awarded a CIB for the Marshall Islands campaign while serving on the DA staff. And, far from being on the ground from the earliest hours of the 6th June 1944 Normandy invasion, SLAM didn't even arrive in the European theater until July.


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[Assistant] And then it was as a staff officer slash historian reconstructing the operation. And while SLAM would speak with pride of being the only American soldier to serve in all four of America's great wars in the 20th century, it was a claim more than


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[Assistant] Slam's job when he wasn't wearing a khaki, looking for a story on the army's tab.


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[Assistant] A historian as careless with his own history as Slam Marshall was could hardly be a careful historian and Marshall proved the rule.


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[Assistant] Veterans of many of the actions he documented in his books have complained bitterly over the years of the inaccuracy or blatant bias.


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[Assistant] Opportunistic enough to see the value of my staying on the good side.


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[Assistant] There must have been many like me, whose silence in the face of slam's power only added to it.


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[Assistant] I did an incalculable, horrific disservice to the army. The thing he professed to love above all. Not to mention to the nation and to the men who fought and died in Vietnam.


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[Assistant] When General Johnson had warned me, take care with slam, he's, he is the army's powerful friend, but he can be a treacherous enemy. I had not understood what he meant.


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[Assistant] But when I finally did, I understood too, that the chief of staff had gotten it backwards.


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[Assistant] The reality was that Slam Marshall was the army's powerful enemy.


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[Assistant] Because he was its most treacherous friend. And if he were alive today, perhaps even more than the Vietnam era generals who determinedly maintained we won the war we lost in their hands, Slam Marshall would have plenty to answer for.


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[Assistant] That right there is a section from my favorite book about face by Colonel David Hackworth and he's talking about


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[Assistant] His experience with a guy by the name of SLA Marshall.


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[Assistant] Otherwise known as Slam. Slam Marshall. And that's a pretty devastating opening. That's a pretty devastating opening.


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[Assistant] That's a pretty bad, devastating opening. You can hear what his career was. So there's a lot of negativity around SLA Marshall. And for me, coming from Hackworth, that's basically all I need to hear. That's all I need to hear.


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[Assistant] Is, when, when Hackworth, you know, goes and, and, so Hackworth worked with him and did a tour in Vietnam with him. They were going around documenting things and he got to know him. And at first he kinda idolized him and I'll talk about that a little bit. But, that, that, and that's one of the things that Hack mentions in About Face.


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[Assistant] Was that he had this huge impact on the army and and hack says that he used to read his books over and over again


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[Assistant] And, and so it's kind of a weird dichotomy there, is that Hack got information from some of SLA Marshall's famous books that he wrote about combat. But then, and, and,


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[Assistant] But then he turned out to not have told the truth. So, one of the books that


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[Assistant] He talks about that he read a bunch. It's a book called Men Against Fire. And it's based on his interviews and reporting on World War II. And that book made some claims. And some of the claims that the book made are just patently untrue. Just lie. They're just not true. And the biggest of the lies... Is that right to call it a lie? The biggest of the claims...


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[Assistant] Maybe it's a lie. The biggest of the untruths, we'll call it that. The biggest of the untruths revolves around this notion that SLA Marshall presents that in combat,


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[Assistant] Only about 15% of the soldiers on the battlefield in combat actually fires a weapons at all. 15%.


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[Assistant] That's a really strange thing to say. Now, and knowing what I know now, I think he may have done that for a couple of reasons.


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[Assistant] And I'm not making excuses, I'm saying this is why I think he would do that. Because there's no excuse for doing this.


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[Assistant] So I think he wanted to have something to discuss that would, that would bring him out to the limelight. You know, the shocking claim. And second,


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[Assistant] I think he saw that there was an actual problem, right? That maybe not as many people shot their weapons in combat as should, and he wanted to fix that problem.


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[Assistant] Was it 85% of the people that weren't shooting the weapon? No. But maybe the number


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[Assistant] Was a decent percentage that didn't shoot or could have shot more. Is that possible? Yea, I could say that that's possible. Maybe not as many people were... Not as many people were shooting as you would have liked.


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[Assistant] So that's, that's why I think he got focused on that particular subject, and I think the normal human life things, right? I think he had a big ego, which actually I don't think he did. He had a big ego. He was insecure. Uhm, I think he made up some of these other stories, which, which are horrible to make up stories about your combat experience. This is a big mistake.


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[Assistant] So, there's a lot of negativity around SLA Marshall, and I have to be careful because... I...


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[Assistant] It's, it's very easy for me to throw the baby out with the bathwater, right? And when you, you know, okay, so I'm here to learn, right?


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[Assistant] And despite these very, very significant character shortfalls, here's the facts. The books that he wrote guided the military and had a significant impact on military leaders for many years, including Hackworth. Including Hackworth. So...


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[Assistant] Eventually, I had to look and see what...


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[Assistant] is in these books and what if anything I could learn from the books and I think


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[Assistant] From my perspective, okay, so, so he did massive amounts of interviews with people. And he did have, you know, he was, okay, he was an indie day. He was there.


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[Assistant] A month later, interviewing people, finding out what happened. So we talked to a lot of people. And I think his perspective, and same thing with World War I, he wasn't there, but he was close to it.


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[Assistant] He talked to a lot of people, and then he spent his time in the Pacific Theater, and he spent time, so he had perspective. It's not the perspective that he claimed to have, and if he would have been smart and just said, look, I wasn't on the front lines, but I talked to a lot of people, I have, I was in the military, I have a good perspective, here's what I've learned. If he would have said that, it would have been fine. Unfortunately, he didn't say that.


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[Assistant] The, the, the, my initial, like, gut reaction is yes. Liar. Right? Right? Hey, no I'm not gonna listen to this guy.


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[Assistant] But I had to think about it. If this book influenced the military so much, and this book in particular, the book is Men Against Fire, is the big book that he wrote, I say the big book, it's the book that he wrote after World War II, I think it came out in 1947. And, it's, it had a big influence.


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[Assistant] And I can tell you that it had a big influence, it had a big influence, and this is what's funny, it had a big influence because despite, so I guess the facts about his career came out after he died, he died in 1977, and the facts came out some years after that, right?


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[Assistant] I would hear quotes from SLA Marshall all the time when I was in. This guy is a known liar.


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[Assistant] But he did not tell the truth. And you know when it comes to like making up what you did in combat, you kinda, you kinda earned yourself the, the, the name liar. So the guy lied. And yet I would hear quotes.


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[Assistant] And a lot of it made sense, right? So, okay, is it true that even a broken clock is right twice a day? That's still a pretty small percentage, but I'd hear quotes from SLA Marshall that were correct, and it wasn't a small number of quotes.


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[Assistant] And so, I think despite his ego, despite his lying,


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[Assistant] He had a lot of good, he had gathered a lot of good information and talked to enough people that he actually started to make sense and he saw people in multiple different wars. Again, did he see it to the degree that he claimed to? No.


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[Assistant] But, you know, there's, there's, there's a lot of military historians that were never in any kind of combat whatsoever, that were never even in the military.


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[Assistant] There's, there's plenty of very respected. I've got books in the queue.


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[Assistant] And I don't know if I'll ever cover them, but I've got books in the queue that are great books about war and about the military that were written by people that were never in the military. There's military theorists that were never in the military that I have a great deal of respect for. So,


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[Assistant] They say sensible things. So, so is there a question of character? Yes. Are we gonna throw the baby out with the bathwater? I'm gonna try not to. I'm gonna try and see what we can learn. And I think, from when I read,


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[Assistant] Uhm, this book, and I read this book a long time ago, and I don't know.


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[Assistant] Anyways, I got stuff out of it. And I think there's actually, I'm gonna tell you, I think there's actually a lot to get out of this book. And if nothing else, it reflects


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[Assistant] And reinforces some lessons and brings some other ones, paints them a little bit more clearly. So. Without further ado.


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[Assistant] And I found myself, as I was, as I was reviewing this book again, uhm,


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[Assistant] Consider a liar, right? I got over that, right? Cause I'm thinking now that makes sense. Yes, that does that. And he's pulling in quotes from military leaders and


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[Assistant] Did they, uh, did they recover? They did not recover from their situation. Negative. SLA Marshall was dead.


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[Assistant] Why would you take the guys that actually sang it? Or why don't you teach those two guys how to sing? Is that hard to sing?


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[Assistant] It's, you gotta tell the truth about what's going on, man. You got to.


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[Assistant] But did they just hire a couple, like, vocalists? I mean, how bad can those guys sing? Terrible. Oh, the real guys? Oh man.


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[Assistant] You know, it's weird, it's also because the stuff that, the stuff that SLA Marshall says in this book, he, he's making, he's making statements that


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[Assistant] They stand on their own. You don't need, you know, to be able to say, look, I was here, so therefore what I'm saying you should listen to. Like, no, the, the, the value of what you're saying should stand on its own. You don't need to be, you don't need to be, uh, have some certain experience. You know, it's like Leif and I talk about


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[Assistant] And I would say, you can't, if you're trying to prove a tactic to someone,


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[Assistant] Like if I say, hey, when you get in this situation, here's what you should do. I shouldn't say, because this is how we did it when I was in Baghdad, or when I was in Ramadi, or whatever. Or when I was in Nam. Like no, here's the tactic.


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[Assistant] And, and look at how it performs. Go and do a trial run. Go and do some force on force training. You'll see that the tactic works. And SLA's Marshall, smart guy, great writer, got, you know, could have said, hey, here's these tactics that I learned from these other people that just got out of...


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[Assistant] Perhaps we should try it this way. That's one thing. But to say, when I was in Baghdad, this is how we did it, so that's how is the best way to do it. Which is just not true. It's not true. Things evolve. The fundamental principles of combat leadership don't change.


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[Assistant] And so to rely on your personal experience as how you bolster your arguments is wrong. It's, it's a, it's an additive, right? It's, it's good to say, hey look, I've done this before. And this is a good way, I remember I had a situation where


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[Assistant] I was teaching how to go over the beach with boats, right? And I brought up some things and I said, hey look,


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[Assistant] I've done and I had happened to have done multiple deployments on a ship and when you're on a ship you go over the beach a lot and going over the beach is a complicated operation. I don't care. There's no easy way to do it man. You got


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[Assistant] You got gear that's gonna flood out, you got waves, you got tide, you got surf, you got sand, you got salt water, it's a nightmare.


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[Assistant] And that's one of the things that makes seals good is that we have to do this. So when you go-


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[Assistant] When you insert any other way, it's freaking easy. Like you step off a helicopter, everything's fine. You see, you know, you, uh, you get dropped out of a vehicle, everything's fine. You come over the beach, everything is a disaster. There's salt everywhere, there's water everywhere, everything's flooded and broken and you're freezing cold. It just sucks. And that's, that's our normal mode of operation is right there. So everything else seems easy. But I had a guy that was saying, don't, uh, don't ever bring the boats in.


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[Assistant] You have to think about what you're gonna do, is basically what I'm saying. You have to think about what you're gonna do. If you can avoid, if the boats come in,


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[Assistant] And they flip. It's a real problem. Right? It's a real problem. If there's surf.


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[Assistant] It's a real problem. And you need to have like elements ready to just handle the boats. Cause if something goes wrong, so you can't, you have to really think about what you're doing. And anyways, I almost fell back on like, look, I've done this.


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[Assistant] I've done over the beach, over and over again, I know the deal. It's like, no, no actually, cuz-


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[Assistant] The deal is, many times when you look at the surf and you go, you know what, we need to swim in. It's gonna suck.


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[Assistant] But we need to swim in because risking the boats going through and it's, there's two, there's two things that are pulling at you. The waves are big, right? You're thinking, hey, we better get the boats to bring us in. That's actually counterintuitive because the waves are big, man. You flip a boat over and you got, it's a disaster. It's a disaster.


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[Assistant] So anyways, I almost relied on the hay.


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[Assistant] Cause it gets sketchy. Alright, anyways. This is a big introduction to SLA Marshall. Here we go. I gotta say one more thing.


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[Assistant] Bro. And you know, Leif and I, we've written two books about our experiences. They're not, they're the leadership books, but you know, we make it.


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[Assistant] Very clear. That like, hey, this is our memory to the best of our ability.


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[Assistant] But there's some things that you just don't... If you don't know something, you shouldn't make a claim.


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[Assistant] But there's something like, you know, if you were participating in D-Day, you don't mess up that factor.


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[Assistant] Like, for me to be like, hey, I- oh yeaah, I was on that mission.


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[Assistant] When was it? And, well, I did whatever. I was on 100 operations. Oh, I don't know if it was on that one or that one. You know, you know, like, it's understood, right? People make mistakes. People, your memory, it fades with memory. I think Leif and I, I mean, we, in both the intros to extreme ownership and dichotomy leadership, we spell it out. You know, this is to the best of our memory. This is an historical document.


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[Assistant] And we, you know, at some point I'm sure we'll go back and actually get the dates and explain every single thing that happened by date and who was there and what experience took place. Like yeah, that would be good to have. And especially now it's probably, it's all unclassified now because it's been a long time. But the kind of errors that he's making,


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[Assistant] What sucks is, this is what sucks. If you don't tell the truth.


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[Assistant] You discredit everything that you've said that actually is truthful. That's the problem with this book. That's the problem with this book. Everything that, basically you could take this book and throw it in the garbage can and no one could really argue with you. Oh, that guy lied about a bunch of stuff. Okay, well throw it in the garbage can, I get it.


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[Assistant] And if it wasn't for the fact that Hack actually had learned a ton from this book, I would be like, well, we'll throw it in the garbage.


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[Assistant] But if you learned from it and then used what he learned from it to implement in the Korean War and the Vietnam War, it's like, okay, you know what? I'm gonna pay attention to it.


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[Assistant] You know if there's something else that happens, this catches people when it comes to storytelling. Okay, I'm gonna explain this. If I'm telling you a story about something taking place, and I'm not a great storyteller,


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[Assistant] Like, let's say I got a mortar that exploded 50 yards from me. 50 yards, I'm pretty safe. Could I get fragged? Sure, I could get fragged, but I'm pretty safe. It's still pretty shocking. WOAHM! It's BLOWED! BOOM!


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[Assistant] And when that first mortar hits you, like, oh wait, is another mortar gonna hit me? What's going on? Well, when I tell you, hey, a mortar hit and it hit 50 meters from me.


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[Assistant] I'm thinking, well that doesn't really convey how I felt at that moment. So you know what I'm gonna do? I'm just gonna cut that down a little bit. I had this mortar hit 10 meters from me, and now you're thinking, oh dang, like even you, I can see it on your face.


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[Assistant] So in order for me to try and convey the emotions that I actually felt, people start to adjust. And you gotta be careful with that. I don't think they're doing it intentionally. You know? I always put myself in check, like okay.


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[Assistant] I need to tell a good story, but I need to keep the facts straight. Facts, yea. Right? Sketchy.


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[Assistant] Yeah, you can't make those factual. You can't make those factual, but hey, something hits 50 meters from you and you've never been murdered before, that will, that is a scary thing. Yeah. It's a scary thing.


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[Assistant] Yes. But here's what's, here's what's cool. Here's what you need, here's what I always need to remember.


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[Assistant] When I tell you I got a mortar that landed 50 meters, most people are like, daaamn, that's scary enough bro, I don't need to make it more scary. Let's just keep it real.


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[Assistant] Here we end up. We end up with SLA Marshall's book. Lots to learn from it. And, yeah. So let's get into it. We'll, we'll, we'll.


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[Assistant] Try and take it for what it's worth. Yes, sir. And I believe you're gonna find as I was reviewing this book I'm like, yeah, there's so much good information in here.


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[Assistant] Here we go, in the early years of World War II, it was the common practice of public spokesmen in the United States to magnify the role of the machine in war while minimizing the importance of large forces of well-trained foot soldiers. Hey, World War II, we're just gonna win this thing with all these big machines, we're, we're...


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[Assistant] We're creating. Once the total contest between national societies is predicated, it becomes impossible to write off the ultimate clash between the masses of men who fight on foot. They are the body of the national defense. There is no other way out.


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[Assistant] The society which looks for an easier way is building its hope on sand. See, I'm already getting kind of fired up.


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[Assistant] Improvisation is the natural order of warfare.


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[Assistant] It has been generally realized that fashioning the machine to man's use in battle was but half of the problem. The other half was conditioning man to the machine.


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[Assistant] The mechanisms of the new warfare do not set their own efficiency rate in battle. They are ever at the mercy of training methods which will stimulate the soldier to express his intelligence and spirit. The philosophy of discipline has adjusted to changing conditions. So think about this. Talk about discipline.


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[Assistant] The philosophy of discipline has adjusted to changing conditions as more and more impact has gone into the hitting power of weapons necessi- necessitating ever widening deployments of the forces of battle.


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[Assistant] Key part, the quality of the initiative in the individual has become the most praised of the military virtues. So, as we got these weapons that can shoot and kill more people at greater distances, people got more spread out. The more spread out people got, the more it becomes important that you have initiative.


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[Assistant] Back to the book, it has been readily seen that the prevailing tactical conditions increase the problem of unit coherence in combat.


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[Assistant] This, the only offset, so people are more spread out, the only offset for this difficulty was to train for a higher degree of individual courage, comprehension of the situation, and self-starting character in the soldier.


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[Assistant] So the more spread out people get, the more you have to rely on these individual soldiers to make the right decisions out there to show initiative. That becomes the new discipline.


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[Assistant] From this realization have come new concepts of discipline which have altered nearly all the major aspects of life and of human association within western armies. We have continued to grapple with the problem of how to free the mind of man.


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[Assistant] How to enlarge his appreciation of his personal worth as a unit in the battle. How to stimulate him to express his individual power within limits which are good, which are for the good of all.


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[Assistant] How do we, and notice this is a little dichotomy here, free the mind to express individual power, but here's the dichotomy, within limits which are for the good of all. So you can't just be doing what's good for you. You can't just express your, free your mind and do whatever you think is right for your own purpose. You need to do it for everyone. The good for all.


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[Assistant] Back to the book. It is universally recognized that as the means of war change, so must the intelligence of man be quickened to keep pace with the changes.


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[Assistant] Our weakness lies in this, that we have never got down to an exact definition of what we are seeking. Failing that, we fall short in our attempt to formulate in training how best to obtain it. And our philosophy of discipline falters at the vital point of its practical, tactical application. I say that it is a simple thing.


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[Assistant] What we need in battle is more and better fire.


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[Assistant] What we need to seek in training are any and all means by which we can increase the ratio of effective fire when we have to go to war. The discipline, training methods and the personal policies of our forces should all be regulated to conform with this one fundamental need.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You can see what he's getting at here. This is his big statement. This is his big hypothesis. So, it's, it's actually, he says, I say it's a simple thing. We need, what we need in battle is more and better fire. That's his big statement.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Decentralized command and making people take initiative and having people step up and do the right thing for the entire team But with a free mind making these things happen and for some reason he just Bypasses all that super important stuff. It says hey, you know, the most important thing we need is more and better fire


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That's why I love machine gunners. It's all my machine gunners out there. God bless you.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Lot of good information there. He narrows it down to a different direction. Don't agree with it. And actually I'll go ahead and say, not true. It's all these factors that we need to improve. Fire is not the sole thing.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It helps, so fire helps win firefights, doesn't win it on its own.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It should be noted that all military power is dependent on civil will.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It is the nation and not the army which makes war. So, I've talked about that.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Before. The will. You gotta have the will. If you don't have the will as a nation, you're not gonna win.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Every improvement in weapon power is aimed at lessening the danger on one side by increasing it on the other. Consequently, every improvement in weapons is eventually met by a counter-improvement. That's Jujitsu, right? You got the counter. Come up with a new move, guess what? Somebody's gonna come up with a move to counter it. That's always happening with weapons.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It is the action which finally delivers the victory surely into one's hands. Decision. Decisiveness. Making the call.