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[Assistant] I would say where I come from is a bit far away from Formula One. I'm not like, my family is not involved in motorsports at all.


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[Assistant] You know, just when I'm young, when I was young, I just wanted to be the race driver, even though I don't know what is Formula 1, when I started go-kart.


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[Assistant] So, you know, I think being the Formula One home there, I think, uh, already I feel something different than what I expect. So...


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[Assistant] You know, it's a bit shame because I'm not doing so bad job that year, but still I lose my seat in Zalba. It's a bit shame, but another time.


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[Assistant] I had dreaming to be in the Formula One when I was young and be there is something special and that's why still I enjoy my life.


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[Assistant] Uh, I still enjoy my racing career, not Formula 1, but, uh, over the world.


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[Assistant] And I think my experience in Formula One was, uh, you know, it's really fantastic for me.


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[Assistant] You are not enough aged, so I was always like, well, I'm giving up myself.


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[Assistant] But, uh, when I was like 8 or 9 years old, I found out on TV, uh, like, already younger than my age, one of the kids was driving a go-kart, and I saw TV that, and I just called my father and I said, I want to drive that one, and it was just rental car, you know, rental car, go-kart.


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[Assistant] So does he bring me next day? And, uh, you know, I was really excited to strike in this kind of sense. And then, you know, just keep saying, I want to go, I want to go, I want to go. One day he bought me.


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[Assistant] As you see, especially now, I think all the Formula One driver is a lot of money around, or, you know, father was in the motor sports involved, so.


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[Assistant] You know, I think like my, my, my starting career was quite special, I would say.


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[Assistant] You know, we have so much sports country, but obviously I was in the go-kart, and the go-kart, we don't need to go to Suzuka just for my home. 30 minutes or 40 minutes, I have one of the small, like, go-kart places.


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[Assistant] And I've been up there for a couple of years, and I went to, like, big races in Japan, and I won a couple of races there.


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[Assistant] And, uh, I signed with Yamaha because at that time I think Yamaha was made to work out and even the engine. So I became part of the Yamaha support driver.


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[Assistant] And once you support Driver of Yamaha, you can have the audition for the Toyota Young Drivers Program. And I joined that and I passed. So I got the opportunity being the Toyota Development Driver when I was like 14.


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[Assistant] But, uh, obviously I have, uh, not enough age to do, you know, uh, open wheel car. So I wait two year.


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[Assistant] Yeah, but the Fuji was closed because they had to renew for the Formula One. And that's why we went to Hokkaido.


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[Assistant] Maybe I was in Honda then, because to be honest, I had two offers when I was 14 years old. So I have one call from Toyota to be joined in the audition.


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[Assistant] And at the same time, I had the Honda, there's a Honda school, like Takuma went, and Sunoda was there. So I had this opportunity as well from the Honda, but already I passed Toyota Audition, so that's why I decided to go to Toyota obviously.


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[Assistant] The Honda was even still happy. I go to the Honda school and I'm still development Toyota driver, but the Toyota was not happy with this and I'm not surprised. Yeah.


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[Assistant] Because at that time I think Toyota was still in the Formula 1. And they want to make a Japanese Formula 1 driver. So I was one of the, you know, guy who was sending to Europe. There's a few guys around as well. It's not only me. There's two more Japanese. But, yeah, I think I was one of them.


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[Assistant] Formula 1, I started. So 2 years of Formula 1 and I went to Formula 3. So my first year was, uh,


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[Assistant] Yeah, so uhm, I, I think he, he was second at the end of Formula 3 and, you know, everybody expected he would be good. So, you know, it was a good benchmark for me.


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[Assistant] You know, I think Premier 3 is something very special, but at least I think that...


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[Assistant] To have a very competent teammate, it's good to school how you drive the car.


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[Assistant] In the end, I think I learned a lot from Formula 3, how I drive the racing car, because I won the championship in the Formula, you know, Italy and the European championship, and I went to the Formula 3. And, you know, I think Formula 3 is the one step.


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[Assistant] You know, more downforce, more power, uh, it's a completely different way to drive. So, in the end, I think, uh, it's good school to learn how you drive.


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[Assistant] My experience, uh, when I drove in, uh, Suzuka was, you know, I think after February test, I would say I was not driving at all in the Formula One. So I did a couple of laps in Suzuka on the wet, and when I hear I'm going to Brazil for the race, I was first, I think concern was, uh, physically probably hard.


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[Assistant] Because if you are not driving, you know, at that speed, especially I think you're driving in Suzuka, but it was wet, so it's quite different.


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[Assistant] You are never driven to Brazil as well, so, you know, you have no chance, no time to do practicing simulator, just watching YouTube stuff. This is only how you run.


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[Assistant] Yeah, I mean, you know, I think if you think, okay, Jensen is fighting for one championship, I'm fighting for my career in Formula One as well, so it's, you know, for me, I don't give away easily because


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[Assistant] I think only one, I was the leader of the one-stop strategy, and when I was doing that, my first team, my engineer was saying, okay, Kamui, you're fighting for podium. I was like, surprise. Wow. I thought, it's quite easy, you know. Ah, this Formula One stuff.


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[Assistant] Even though I didn't thought about, I mean, they, I knew that they have knew more about this, but, uh, you know, normally they don't quit.


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[Assistant] Straight away, just maybe they have a, you know, probably...


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[Assistant] One more year extended, and that's why I was not really worried about this, so it's a surprise.


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[Assistant] You know, the Toyota is living in Formula 1. So, I was very shocked.


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[Assistant] To be honest, if they do one more year, they will win because I knew that engine can update like, uh, they say 13 to 14 horsepower already.


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[Assistant] And they had, uh, it's kind of, you know, already, extract.


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[Assistant] So, a certain amount of speed, they can reduce the drag, and they can get top speed. Already they had this one, the blow diffuser, they already had.


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[Assistant] In this car. So, I think technology, internal technology, they are one of the head of the, you know, what they have. Because, do you remember 2010?


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[Assistant] So like Zalba, we, we employed like in the middle season.


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[Assistant] It worked out. They could win. And that's why I feel really ashamed, but, uh, in the Formula 1, I mean, it's too expensive, this Formula 1, I would say.


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[Assistant] You are doing like same of spirit of racing, even 24 Romain, even you do Indycar for example. You're fighting for the position, but amount of the money, the budget is so different, you know? So of course I think it's quite normal.


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[Assistant] Not much, actually. Because, for example, engine is making in there, but it's for the WRC.


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[Assistant] To be honest, not much. I had a contract, but I tried to...


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[Assistant] Determine, uh, contract, you know, determine because...


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[Assistant] You know, Toyota is not involved in Formula One, and, you know, still if I have a... I worked with Java, for example, and if I had a contract with Toyota, it's something big strength, so I tried, and I took one year to determine.


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[Assistant] Long time, I think during Senna time, we lost a lot. In my time, I think people was, it's getting more people.


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[Assistant] Probably, I think, 90, I think 2000 was on the, on the top, I would say. And my time on, you know, drop still quite reasonable number compared to other track.


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[Assistant] But, uh, as I would say, I think if you are, I mean, Honda is pulling away, which means it will be more difficult.


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[Assistant] I think yeaah, and, uh, I think still Honda has tried to develop young drivers, but, uh,


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[Assistant] Honda driver developed a driver in Europe, what is final goal for Honda because what Honda is doing now in Europe, maybe, uh, biggest championship now after Formula One, maybe IndyCar.


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[Assistant] Yeah, I think that's it. So, you know, it's the United States. So it's a bit different.


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[Assistant] No, he will be good, I think. You know, before he joined Honda School, he came to Toyota School, and I was teaching him.


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[Assistant] Yeah, uh, I spoke to him sometimes. Even I think I spoke to him last month.


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[Assistant] Probably, I think he had a really, you know, very tough rival next to him. You know, I think of course, I think he matched with the car, because he was good in the X2, but when you look at Formula 3, but not, uh,


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[Assistant] You know, very special. So you know, I think he can be good if he matches the car.


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[Assistant] Yeah, exactly. I mean, for the future contract, I think for sure he can have a good result, but he could have maybe some mistake as well.


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[Assistant] Uh, in mistake, he need to have someone to explain well to the team. You know, he need a kind of filter to manage his self. Because he is still young.


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[Assistant] And his amount of the, the confidence by his self. So that's why I would say it's no doubt with his talent, his speed.


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[Assistant] But, uh, after one year, I had no much test really. So, you know, I think I was not really, you know, wishy-ish been there and just, uh,


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[Assistant] But just, uh, in being the Formula One in the race sheet, I think this is a...


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[Assistant] And when I drove in there, it's, uh, I think already, I think Luno was struggling on that year, so we got, uh, Luno for our unit. You know, we had a...


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[Assistant] I mean, it's more simple because in the Formula One, you had to make your car. And like endurance race, you have to make car, of course. But it's more kind of, we have to compromise all three drivers. And in the end, what you can do is what you can do. It's your job. And in the end, I think,


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[Assistant] I enjoy more racing than endurance in the end because in the Formula One, I mean, you say yes, it's fighting, it's sprint race, it all depends on your results.


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[Assistant] Uh, if you have a good car, for sure you can have result. If you have bad car, it's nearly no chance. And endurance race is something I feel different because if you have bad car but, you know, still you can show your performance because


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[Assistant] It's a shame, but I mean, this is Royce, and in the end, I think we need to communicate with the team. He has the money, so in the end, it's all the responsibility of the, you know, team relationship, so.


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[Assistant] This is the end of the team war. So, you know, in the end we have to share the time, we have to share the car.


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[Assistant] You know, I mean, still this is, uh, good because at least if you are a racer, you have to drive fast.


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[Assistant] If you know what you have to do, it's same, to be honest. You are running the same track, just different temperature. So just you have to be careful on the out lap of the safety car or whatever, you know, full course yellow or whatever, you know. I mean this is the way you need to be careful because tire will be cold.


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[Assistant] Otherwise, I think our headlight is really big, so I think visually it's okay. I thought if you get used to this, it's not really a surprise.


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[Assistant] I remember that when I overtook Fernando in 2012 in Brazil,


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[Assistant] No, I prefer having beer, watching Formula 1 on TV. It's enough.


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[Assistant] I think. I was so thankful for all the, you know, Formula One fans.


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[Assistant] Good memory there, and all the, you know, guys there along, even after the race, you know, we have really good connection, uh, with them, some of people, so.


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[Assistant] I prefer not having been watching Formula One TV. I'm doing different races. I think this should be enough.


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[Assistant] Let's start this week's show with a few stats about McLaren. They finished 9th in the 2017 Constructors Championship, 6th in 2018, 4th in 2019


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[Assistant] And they currently lie third in 2020. They're on an impressive upward swing. So why don't we catch up with the boss, see what makes him tick and find out about his plans for the future.


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[Assistant] Hi everyone, I'm Tom Clarkson and welcome to Beyond The Grid.


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[Assistant] My guest this week is Zach Brown, the CEO of McLaren Racing, a sponsorship guru for more than 20 years. Zach took over from Ron Dennis at the Woking team in the winter of 2016-2017.


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[Assistant] They were big shoes to fill and yet Zach took it all in his stride and a team that was in crisis is now a team oozing confidence.


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[Assistant] Zack made some great hires, including team principal Andreas Seidel, and he's restructured the management of the team, making everything more cohesive. But there's more to Zack than his management skills, and that's why this week's episode was such a pleasure to record.


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[Assistant] He's passionate about Formula One. He's loved it since he watched his first Grand Prix at Long Beach 40 years ago. And that raw enthusiasm is infectious. A chat with Zach about racing is a positive one. And no wonder he's proven to be so effective at selling the sport to FTSE 500 companies. He's living the dream and he's brilliant at selling the dream to sponsors. But like so many people in the Formula One paddock,


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[Assistant] He was first drawn to the sport because he wanted to drive.


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[Assistant] He started karting in his native California and moved to England to pursue his ambitions of Formula One. He climbed as high as Formula Three in which he raced against the likes of Juan Pablo Montoya and Dario Franchitti and even though he was quick,


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[Assistant] The realisation began to dawn that his greatest skills were in finding the money to race.


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[Assistant] He went on to set up a hugely successful sponsorship agency, and his first deals in Formula One were, ironically enough, with McLaren, which is where he is today.


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[Assistant] Zack is a colourful character with a fascinating backstory. There's some great stuff in this chat about Lando Norris, Fernando Alonso Carlos Sainz and Daniel Ricciardo


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[Assistant] Plus that gives us the lowdown on how much money he reckons he's brought into the sport and his mind blowing car collection. You won't believe the gems he's got. I hope you enjoy our conversation.


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[Assistant] Zach, welcome to the show. It's great to have you on Beyond the Grid. Thank you for having me on. Well, look, let's start by talking all things McLaren, because we're coming up to the fourth anniversary since you took over the reins. How's the team changed in that time? Uh, well, it's gotten better. So that's... Results have gotten better.


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[Assistant] Zach, how much of a step into the unknown was this for you? You've run businesses and we're going to talk about that, the marketing side of your background in a bit, but from a racing team point of view, was it a step into the unknown? Were you a little bit nervous four years ago?


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[Assistant] So here's the thing, you have owned your own marketing business, you own your own racing team that's involved in other categories, United Autosports. How is the job of running a team different when you compare being an owner


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[Assistant] To an employee, which is what I guess you are here at McLaren.


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[Assistant] Zach, what about your management style? Because it seems to me you hire high profile people and have them sort of sit near you in the organisation. Look at Andreas Seidel here at McLaren, Richard Dean you've already mentioned at United All Sports, John Flack at JMI.


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[Assistant] Is that an accurate observation and how does that free you up to do different stuff?


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[Assistant] More insights from McLaren's very own Zac Brown coming up right after this.


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[Assistant] If you've had to put your travel plans on hold this year, it doesn't mean you can't indulge in your love of other cultures from the comfort of your own home.


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[Assistant] Perhaps you've always admired the French language, but find it hard to find the time to fit lessons into your busy schedule.


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[Assistant] Well, look no further, because Babbel is designed to get you speaking a new language within weeks, with daily 10-15 minute lessons.


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[Assistant] It's available as an app or online. So no matter where or when you log onto a lesson, your progress will be synced across all of your devices and can be completed at your own pace and at a time that suits you.


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[Assistant] There are 14 different languages to choose from, including French, Spanish, Italian and even Russian.


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[Assistant] And I've just spent a week in Sochi at the Sochi Autodrom and it would have been really useful to speak the language.


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[Assistant] Babbel is created by 100 language experts, real people. So you're not reliant on translation machines and the speech recognition technology really helps you focus on your accent and pronunciation before then test driving your skills in the real world.


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[Assistant] Have you ever added up how much money you've generated in sponsorship over the last 25 years?


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[Assistant] And how has the world of sponsorship changed in the last 25 years? Because you've already mentioned you've got 40 partners now here at McLaren, yet no title sponsorship.


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[Assistant] So JMI, we've talked about this. What does it mean? Just Marketing International. How'd you come up with that name?


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[Assistant] So when did you do your first deal in Formula One?


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[Assistant] How different are the teams? So doing a deal with McLaren, take yourself out of the McLaren picture, but doing a deal with McLaren, how different is that to doing a deal with...


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[Assistant] So knowing what you know now about Formula One teams having run one, what would you have done differently when you were the boss of JMI?


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[Assistant] Are you on the other side of the coin now? Do you have people coming to you trying to sell you deals? And you can sort of say no, no, no, that's not how you do it fella.


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[Assistant] Now a while back you mentioned, uh, your racing career. You know, you were doing, uh, I think you said British Formula Three. So can we talk about Zach Brown, the racing driver? Look, how did a guy, a kid from California,


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[Assistant] Get involved in racing with your family racing fans.


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[Assistant] Was Eddie Cheever then, as a result of that meeting, a hero?


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[Assistant] And why did you come here? Why didn't you stay in the states?


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[Assistant] Zach, did you enjoy living in England as a racing driver? Is this when you were in Sheffield?


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[Assistant] And at what point did the penny start to drop that you maybe were better at bringing in the money than delivering the lap time? Am I being harsh? I don't mean. No, no, no.


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[Assistant] That's fantastic. Now you've touched on something there. Uh, you say that you own that car, but...


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[Assistant] Seems to me whenever you've had some spare cash lying around, you've been investing in


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[Assistant] Cars or just racing cars? Both. I'm a car guy. I don't need to give away too many secrets but how


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[Assistant] And did I read a story that the McLaren M23 and the Ferrari 312 that they used in the film Rush, are they yours?


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[Assistant] While we're talking racing drivers, I just wanted to ask you about a few. Fernando Alonso, most recently you've just been to the Indy 500 with him. Didn't go so well, but he raced with you for a couple of seasons in Formula One. What are his standout qualities? Because we're going to see him in Formula One again next year.


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[Assistant] Are there any weaknesses to Fernando Alonso? Is it a travesty that he hasn't won more than two world titles? Or has he been his own worst enemy?


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[Assistant] So all the GP2 engine and all those outbursts that we got prior to you coming to the team, that surprises you.


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[Assistant] How much you're praising him. How difficult was it to replace him with a relative unknown in Lando Norris?


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[Assistant] So, Lando, 18 months in. How's he improved? How impressed are you?


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[Assistant] From a media point of view, I feel he's coming across a little bit more serious this year. Do you see that? Or did you even advise him to be a little bit more, cause he was quite jokey last year, wasn't he?


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[Assistant] Brilliant podium in Monza. Could you have done more to keep him?


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[Assistant] For 21, or did he present the move to Ferrari as a done deal? No, we, we, uhm.


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[Assistant] What came first? Carlos's move desire to go to Ferrari or your desire to hire Daniel Ricciardo?


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[Assistant] Tiny bit of you wish you were keeping him or?


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[Assistant] He's selling. Licking the stamp. Licking the stamp. But when someone like Vettel was available, does the marketeer in you?


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[Assistant] Of Daniel Ricciardo, Lando Norris and the Mercedes power unit in 21. How confident are you you're going to take a step?


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[Assistant] The final piece in this F1 puzzle is Andreas Seidel, it would appear. Why did you choose him to be team principal? Because there must have been another option.


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[Assistant] You've said all bets are off for 2022, but recent news that you're going to put the McLaren Technology Centre up for sale, uhm, that might make some McLaren fans nervous. Need they be? Have you got the resources you need?


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[Assistant] Why is it important for McLaren to be an IndyCar?


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[Assistant] And on that topic, Chaco Perez, who knows where he's going to end up next year? Is he going to stay in Formula One? Maybe with Alfa Romeo or Haas? Or is he going to go to IndyCar? My guess is he'll end up in Formula One. Uuh. Has he been on the phone to you about IndyCar? Nope.


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[Assistant] Knowing the two championships as you do, if you're a Formula One driver and go to IndyCar, let's say he goes to IndyCar in 21, would it then be very difficult to come back?


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[Assistant] What a wonderful way for Zach to sum up his passion for the sport. And that passion is what really shone through during our conversation. Ever since he attended his first Grand Prix, Long Beach 81, he's loved this sport.


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[Assistant] I learned so much about Zack too. His management style and the fact that he's not afraid to employ top class people such as Andreas Seidel. His understanding of drivers, which helped him to manage characters like Fernando Alonso and his car collection. Wow.


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[Assistant] Nigel Mansell's Williams FW11B, the actual car in which he dummied Nelson Piquet to win the 1987 British Grand Prix, yes please.


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[Assistant] Zach, many thanks for your time. It was great to chat and thanks too to McLaren for helping to make it happen. Well, that's almost it for this week, but before I go, I've got a couple of things I want to share with you. First up, here's a sneak preview of next week's show. Trust me, you're going to like it.


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[Assistant] Many of you have been asking for this guy for months. Well, your wish is my command and he didn't disappoint. And if you want to hear more from this four time world champion, don't miss next week's episode out on all of your favourite podcast platforms from Wednesday, the 7th of October.


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[Assistant] Richard K got in touch to say this. That's made a rainy morning delivering shopping more entertaining, he said. Part one and part two, back to back. Are you in a truck, Richard? I'm only joking of course, although Alan Prost would like to know. Thanks for getting in touch and I'm glad you enjoyed the shows.


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[Assistant] Flexigoo, that's a great name, message to say what a story from Mansell.


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[Assistant] Winning after his steering wheel fell off on his lap at 200 miles an hour. Wasn't it great to hear from Nigel Flexigou? Some of his stories about life at the Scuderia were fabulous. And not least that one about the steering wheel failure while en route to victory on debut for the team in Brazil 1989.


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[Assistant] So many great memories about the team. I wish we could hear more from Sebastian, but these two episodes are the best ones so far. Thanks very much, Cesar. I'm glad you enjoyed the shows and watch this space when it comes to Sebastian. Make sure you tune in next week.


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[Assistant] Well folks, many thanks as ever for your messages, and if I didn't read out your message, don't give up. Please keep them coming in because I read each and every one of them. And as ever, I'm at Tom Clarkson F1 on Twitter, where you can use the hashtag F1 Beyond The Grid.


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[Assistant] Thanks for listening. Beyond the Grid is produced by F1 in association with AudioBoom. Until next time, keep it flat out.


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[Assistant] Winning the world title meant everything to my father.


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[Assistant] And it was the most bittersweet moment I think a human could possibly have.


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[Assistant] Everything to my father. He set out on his journey in motor racing.


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[Assistant] I think trying to prove himself at every stage along the way and he always wanted to believe that he could be a top driver, uh, at the highest level and he proved that


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[Assistant] Very much so in sports cars driving for Ferrari, but there was always a question in his mind, was he good enough?


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[Assistant] To win in, in Grand Prix racing and it, it took time. It took some years, but he got there.


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[Assistant] And to actually win the world championship was kind of like reaching the summit. There was, there was nothing left that he had to prove. Did he talk to you about it much?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] No, no, he didn't have to talk about it. We, I pretty much lived it with him. Uh, even though I, this happened years before I was even born.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He lived the rest of his life as a world champion and he was honored for it continuously.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, it was always associated with, with his name, uh, in any introduction, anywhere we went, uh, it, it, it just became his identity. And so it, it's just who he was.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Very proud of it, yes. Absolutely, because he was also such a history buff. He grew up reading about


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The European races at Le Mans and the Mille Miglia and the Targa Florio, all the pre-war racing was something that


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He read about and romanticized and that's what really, I think brought him into, to the whole European racing scene. So for him to now become part of that legacy, I think is what meant so much to him.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I'll just say it, my father was an oddball. He, he admitted it. He was not a normal


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Kid growing up in Santa Monica.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Back in the 1930s and 40s, he, you know, it was the post war.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] All these servicemen were coming back and the whole hot rotting culture was really taking off. And LA was like a hotbed for that because


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You had all the tuning shops and the guys coming back from the war with all these skills and everyone had that sort of need for adrenaline, need for speed.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] European cars and he, he always sought it out. I mean, he did become a mechanic.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] For, for a midget racing team, but he really had no interest in it. He didn't, he didn't see the thrill of going around in circles in the dirt.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It is a path that he wanted to take forward.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Saw an MGTC on the road or a Jaguar XK120. That's what excited him. He thought those were the machines he wanted to be in.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Absolutely, no racing, but his mother and his aunt loved automobiles. They absolutely loved automobiles and they loved.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Them big, fast, they, they just were absolutely...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Nuts about cars, and so I think he really got it from his aunt.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Who, who had been purchasing cars ever since he was a young boy and had just this real love for them that she imparted onto my father.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It was a big journey and he, he made it over to Europe.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Through his interest in, in import cars, European cars, mainly British cars, by working for an import agency in Hollywood called International Motors.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Where he was working on cars that were being sold to.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] All the movie stars and very wealthy clientele.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] They sent him over to Europe for service training, uh, to work at MG, at Rolls Royce.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] At Jaguar SU Carburetors in the late 1940s.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And before he came home, he went to Silverstone to see the first Grand Prix, the first Grand Prix of modern day era when Farina won and even Queen Elizabeth was there waving to the crowd.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Race cars for top teams. And that, that was.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That was where he had his goals set was to be a top mechanic.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] However, things all changed because he brought back with him from England.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] A Jaguar XK120 that he bought from the factory.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, in checked luggage on the Queen Mary, drove it from New York across the country.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] To Santa Monica and raced that car.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And actually started doing very well and won his first important motor race at Pebble Beach in the forest, uh, just a few months later. How did he then get back to Europe?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It took, it took some years. Uh, he...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Ended up racing all over the U.S. The whole racing scene was really picking up. They were holding


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Races on old airfields, uh, on public roads, uh, so he was, he was racing for privateers, he was, he was buying his own cars. In fact, he met Luigi Canetti.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And Luigi Canetti was the importer of Ferraris and was instrumental in the growth of, of Ferrari as a brand, as a company. Cause he, he had convinced Enzo Ferrari.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] We can sell cars to the American market. You know, Enzo Ferrari was about racing.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Not about selling road cars, but, but Luigi really had his ear, really convinced him that selling cars in America was where it was at.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And my father was just right there at the right time and had recognized how good a car, how much potential these Ferraris had.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] To, to win the sports car races and, uh, and so he got his first car from Luigi and, and then soon had ended up, uh, in another Ferrari.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And was winning races, uh, you know, if Ferrari was not yet established as a top, top mark yet.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But my father was right there, winning races for them from the beginning.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He started with them in 1955. He was literally on a boat.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Going to Europe to race for a privateer.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] In a Ferrari in the European sports car races in 1955 when Alberto Ascari, uh, was killed testing at Monza. And he was en route, gets a cable telegram while he's on the boat.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That Enzo Ferrari would like to meet him. And he had to get off, disembark at Barcelona, take the train to Maranello, or to Modena rather, meet with, with Enzo Ferrari, who then put him in, uh, a car for Le Mans. And there he is, a factory team driver at Le Mans, just a few months later.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] When the biggest tragedy in motor, that motor racing had ever seen takes place right in front of him, right there in plain view as my father's waiting on the pit lane wall for his teammate Malioli to come in.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It is when Pierre Laveg's Mercedes just tore through the crowds and killed over 80 people.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And that, that was his introduction to Ferrari.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And the race went on. He got in the car, he finished the race.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And from there, you know, he became a very prominent sports car driver, winning Le Mans in 58, getting his chance in the Formula One car, uh, really proving himself. But at the same time, seeing his teammates get killed.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, from, from Castellotti to, you know, Portago, then of course, Musso and Hawthorne and Peter Collins. Uh, when Mike Hawthorne retired,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] In his press conference, he said, I believe that Phil Hill and with Ferrari, uh, has the potential to go on to be world champion. And so he, my father, by the time 1961 had come around.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He had really earned his stripes as, as a driver at the scuderia. And so when.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Trips who had come back after multiple times having crashes, uh, having to rehabilitate his body, uh, was given that next chance to, to again race for Ferrari.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] My father and Tripp's were there kind of trying to size up who would be the team leader at that point, right? They were trying, there was no established numero uno at Ferrari. And so,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Going, and here's something important to realize too when you look back at 1961.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Is that these were sports car drivers and Formula One drivers. There were only seven races.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] In the, the season. Seven races. I mean, how many are there now, Tom? How many?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] They were doing a lot of endurance racing at the same time. I mean, the season before the season even started, they were at Sebring. They were often in Argentina. They were at the Targa Florio.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Before the first opening round at Monaco came around.


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[Assistant] Yea, Enzo was an agitator. I think he considered himself an agitator of men.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And he also played into this sort of father figure that, that he was to these drivers, uh, and knew the power he had over them.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I don't think he saw a point in, in allowing one driver to believe he was the number one.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It was to his benefit to let them battle it out with, with one another.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] All along just fine, uh, but really, how well do...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Potential championship winners who are in a, a, a growing rivalry.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Get along, right? I mean, they're, they're passing time. They're with each other. They're teammates. Uh, my father didn't have family in Europe. Uh, and, and I think he, he felt welcomed by the Tripps family to bring him over to Berg Hammersbach and


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] To get a peek into Taffy's world there and, you know, he felt welcomed.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] By them, but were they, were they like the Collins Hawthorne, uh, you know, best mates? Not at all. They were, they were rivals and that the intensity of that rivalry just got more and more heated as the year went on.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] What I know about Wolfgang von Tripps was...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He had a hard life before he got to 1961. And you know, we have to say hard life in quotes. I mean, he had his aristocratic background. He grew up in what essentially was a castle.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But it was during World War II that he was cast out of, of, of his home, uh, when, when Germany was being invaded. In fact, he had a regiment, a Scottish regiment first took over the house, uh, where he started to learn how to speak English.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Then next it was a regiment of black American troops.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, so they went through some, some hard times during the war and he was one of those, those boys that, that the Germans enlisted to dig through the rubble.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] After the bombings. So he'd seen a lot. He'd seen a lot of bloodshed.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He'd, uh, you know, he was the only child in this family that had a lot of land to be worked on. It was all agricultural.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And so his racing career was not very much, uh, appreciated by his parents, just like my father's, you know, they, they both were so driven to be racing drivers and they had to kind of, uh, do it their own way. Uh, and so I think that he and.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He and Taffy probably got along very well in the sense they could relate.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] to each other, that they had to race cars. There was going to be no other way.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Such a high level of sensitivity to machinery and knowledge of machinery. He was obsessed with the mechanical workings of a car.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And that I think was, was his key ingredient as a racing driver, uh, is that his sense of confidence as a driver came just as much through understanding the capabilities of the car mechanically, which was really more important


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Back in those days than it is nowadays. Nowadays, a driver gets in, he drives flat out as fast as he can.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You need to slow it down or something's happening, they'll adjust.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Back then it was just you and the car out on the circuit and you were, you were really responsible for preserving that car and not wearing it out.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Whether it was in a Grand Prix or a long sports car race like the Le Mans 24 hours. And so my father knew he had that mechanical knowledge and expertise.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That Trips did not have. Trips, uh, you know.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Just didn't have a sense for it, didn't really even have a care for the mechanical workings of a car. He was more like, I don't want to say a modern racing driver, but he just would drive the wheels off of it. And, uh, if it broke, it broke. He wasn't going to tell the engineers how to fix it.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He had issues with his self-esteem, his confidence. He was not a very confident person. And that sounds ironic because how do you make it to the Ferrari team and win races not being a confident person?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He struggled a lot with this sort of self belief that, that he was good enough.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And in sports cars, that mechanical sympathy was his ace. It was everything for him to be able to.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] To drive on the limit for hours and hours on end and know what was wrong with the car and how to nurse it to the end, where he had teammates who


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Didn't care for the long races.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Probably the British drivers, if you've studied your history.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Didn't have a lot of regards for the Lamar 24 hours in that day and Collins, Hawthorne, they couldn't wait to get home.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Whereas my father was, was in it to win it all the way. And he just knew how to get the most out of the cars and had a lot of success in sports cars.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] What was his mood? It was a long, hot summer, uh, of, of screw ups of, uh, almost could've, would've, should've at races leading up to Monza. He felt he had thrown it away.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, in which essentially he, he, he did almost all he could to throw it away it seemed when you look at the French Grand Prix.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, at Rennes, where he spun at Tillois, uh, while leading the race, uh, lapping Sterling Moss and spinning in front of him and getting T-boned by Moss and stalling the car. He had it in the bag. He, he had, he had the championship in the bag on a couple different occasions before he got to Monza.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And again, we're dealing with only seven races. Every race really counted.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] There was the German Grand Prix where he came out and really stamped his authority over trips on his home circuit by


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Being the first driver to, to, to break the nine minute barrier, uh,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Showing everyone he had the goods to be the championship winning driver. And you had.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Then in that race, uh, the team not getting the tire situation right and Moss, uh, beating both of the Ferraris.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And, uh, big rainstorms during the race and both, uh, my father and trips spinning out on the last lap in a huge downpour and my father finishing one second behind trips.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Which again led to my father feeling like he was just throwing the championship away.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So going into Monza, the penultimate round, uh, with a four point deficit.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, he just knew he had to have a perfect weekend. He had to win that race. Uh, he had been able to test a new chassis going into the weekend. Um, he.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Just was wearing himself out with anxiety about how everything was gonna go.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But he had had a lot of success at Monza. Uh, he'd won in 1960 and that was his first Grand Prix victory. Uh, the last win in a front engine, uh, Formula One car.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And Trips, on the other hand, had crashed a lot at Monza and had pretty much almost killed himself, uh, I think on a couple occasions.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And so my father was a confident driver at Monza as opposed to Trips who was wondering if he was gonna, um, you know, kill himself again.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So there was so much pressure, and to put it in perspective, there had never been a German Formula One champion before. There had never been an American Formula One champion before. Trips was all over


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The, uh, magazine covers, the headlines, he was really Germany's next big hope as a, as a sports superstar. And he was feeling the pressure in a big way.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] My father wasn't having that much pressure from the American media, from the American racing scene. There was still such a separation, you know, from, from the American audience.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Who would read about these results a couple weeks later, you know, they might hear a little blurb on the radio or.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You know, read something on the back page of the sports section. But he didn't have the weight on his shoulder like Trips did.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Oh, the 156, uh, which, you know, people dubbed the shark nose because of...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Big intakes in the front that sort of look like these shark nostrils and just, it was such a gorgeous car. I don't think people had seen anything like it before. Uh, it was sleek, beautiful, just the red, uh, it was like the ultimate looking race car and


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It was fast. It had, it had really good, uh, top line speed.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I think probably the first time it rolled out, uh, you know, down the pit lane and the British teams with the Lotuses and the Coopers were looking at this.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The sleek new, you know, modern Italian, beautiful race car and the sound of it. I think they just thought, oh, there goes, there goes our hopes this year. And certainly my father and, and Von Tripps felt that they had a very good chance at winning the title.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] All the shark noses, let's just, you know, uh, put it out there, we're destroyed by Enzo Ferrari. Back in the day, Enzo Ferrari was scrapping his old race cars. Why? Why would you do that?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I'm sure Enzo was asking himself why at the end of his life. But that was, that was who they were, they were only thinking forward. What good was an old race car?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He probably couldn't stand the sight of an old race car.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And they were all scrapped and I think, uh, Alfa Romeo had the same policy for a few years there. And there's a lot of, you know, speculation. Did they end up in the cement at the new factory being built or, you know, there were, there's all kinds of ideas of what happened to them.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And driving it was absolutely fantastic. A dream come true. I'd always heard about these cars. I always assumed I would never.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I always knew I would never drive a real shark nose until the day came when


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] There were two very real examples and we had them out at Zonvort in, uh, 2019 and I got to lap the circuit, uh, many times, uh, we were doing some filming and,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It's phenomenal. I mean, it's everything you'd expect out of a Ferrari Grand Prix car. It just, it feels like it fits you like a glove. It just wants you to wind up the revs and make it scream.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It's so controllable, you know, that you've got so much leverage on these skinny tires.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And this big steering wheel that you just feel like you can do anything.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That you had to keep the momentum going. You know, these weren't cars that you could do big power slides coming out of the corners. You couldn't make up for goofing it up.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Driving it in and getting it messy going into a corner. You had to be clean.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And that actually suited my father's style very well because he loved big, fast, swooping corners like at the old Belgian Grand Prix, places like Monza. It's just a beautiful car. I could go on forever about it.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, it was absolutely iconic. Uh, it was the first time my father ever wanted to wear a seatbelt was when he watched the sports cars racing there a few years earlier and saw the drivers kind of


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] An army or air force surplus store in Milan and actually got some aircraft seatbelts.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] To hold himself down. I mean, it was not a smooth banking like you'd expect on a modern day Indy car circuit or something. So.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It was a rough ride, but as long as the car and the suspension were up for it, it was just flat out. So it was simply a flat out.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You know, exercise in, in, in keeping it on the road and.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, he didn't, I don't think particularly enjoy it, uh, but it was, it was all about how, how good your car was, uhm, suspension wise and it was all about horsepower.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yes, it was, something was wrong and he knew it when he showed up at Monza in the first day of practice. You know, Enzo Ferrari didn't come to the races. The only time you saw him at a race was at practice.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] On the Friday or whatever it was before the Italian Grand Prix. That was the one time you'd see Enzo there at the track.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And, uh, by the time Enzo got there, uh, and practice was done, trips had


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Put it on pole. He had set the fastest practice time. Uh, he was a second faster, uh, than my father and easily and just parked it. He did a few laps and parked it and said, I'm done, you know, like very confidently.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Meanwhile, my father realized he's losing a second on an area of the track.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That was flat out. So it was easy for him to suss out.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That he was down on power, that there was a problem with...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Perhaps, and the politics on the team were so extreme that


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] All year long he wondered, you know, am I even being considered as somebody they would want as a world champion? I mean, Tripp's kind of had it all, uh, is that sort of, uh, dashing count, you know, he sort of had


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The goods in terms of his mannerisms, of his, uh, you know, of his pedigree.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That, that, that perhaps Enzo Ferrari saw Trips as the desired future world champion representing the Ferrari brand.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] My father also sort of came across as this kind of scrappy, gritty, uh,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] American who'd like to get his hands dirty, you know, wrenching on cars. He, he didn't have that sort of nobility, uh, presence about him that somebody like Tripp's had.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And my father was also very willing to speak his mind about the cars, and one thing Enzo Ferrari didn't like was people being critical of his cars, especially the drivers.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Well, let me back it up one step before, before my father even got the car on the circuit, he found that the gearbox was all screwed up.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He had like two first gears and no reverse or two reverses and no first gear. It was a completely screwed up gearbox assembly.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The team wouldn't believe him until finally the gearbox specialist got in the car himself and realized, okay, yeah, we've got a problem.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So right off the bat, it seemed like something was not right with the whole, the whole dynamic of how the weekend w-w-was meant to play out. Uh, and then he's down on power.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And he's telling the team, we've got to do something. I need a new engine. And he's up against Enzo Ferrari is saying, Phil, you, maybe, uh, maybe your foot isn't as heavy as it used to be.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And he is really winding up my father. That was not the right moment to be telling a driver that maybe the problem is with your foot, not with the car.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] My father was infuriated because the intensity of that weekend, how the whole season had built up to have your team boss not having your back, but instead


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, criticizing you, uh, was more than my father could handle at the moment. My father was then adamant he needed a new engine. It was all about the engine at that point. Finally, finally, uh, Keaty, who was a brilliant engineer and Romolo Tavoni, the sporting director, who both really liked my father and had been there all along.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Decided, okay, we'll get a new engine in the car. You know, my father said, well, I'll get there the next morning. I'll get there on Sunday morning before the race. We'll, uh, we'll run the engine in, which in those days you could do, you know, he, he did. In fact, they, they, they swapped out the engine. They found that one of the valve springs was broken. So in fact,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] My father was correct. There was something very wrong with the car. And here's the interesting part.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Is that of all the cars entered by Ferrari, which I think there were five for the Italian Grand Prix, each one went out of the race, except for Trips, who crashed of course.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] With broken valve springs. Not a single Ferrari finished the race except my father, who led the race and won.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And it was all due to insisting on having that engine the night before the Grand Prix.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Well, Monza is a huge park, you know, you've got the, the


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The autodromo, the racetrack itself, I think, takes up just a small area of all the grounds. So there's a lot of roads within the park.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And I would imagine that that's where he was running the car, you know, at early, early hours of the day, uh, while he could before the people were there.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, doing a lot of practice starts, really, really getting in tune with, with the car until he felt.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Okay, we've got this. You know, it was good for the race. And even Carlo Chidi said when, when the engine was put in the car, he, he, he, he referred to it as, as a bomb.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Meaning this engine is gonna be good, Phil. This will be good.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He was used to seeing, you know, burning wreckages on the side of the road since, uh,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You know, his earliest times racing and he was not aware of, of, of the gravity of it. He didn't know it was Tripp's car. Um, he, he was just focused on, on, on the race and


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You know, in that part of the circuit too, going into parabolica.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You're going at top speed, uh, just like you are today going into braking.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] For a very fast curve into the parabolica. So, you know, you've got to be very focused on, on your race and on your line and on staying on the road.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Did he know spectators were killed? Did he know Trips was killed? No. There was no team radio. There was no one telling him what had happened.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, and as they did so often, uh, in those days, they carried on and they finished the race and he actually won the race, had won the championship.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Was ecstatic. It was, it was the, the, the pinnacle of his career and he had just achieved the,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Everything he had ever dreamt of achieving as a racing driver went through the victory celebration.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And asked Carlo Chidi about Tripp's and Chidi kind of mumbled something to him that wasn't exactly the truth, but he just knew at that moment that, that Tripp's was, was dead. And that, that changed everything. That changed everything.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And it was the most bittersweet moment I think a human could possibly have.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Didn't take away the importance of winning a championship to my father, but it certainly, certainly dampened the celebration, uh, in a big way.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Absolutely not. I mean, it was a game of survival back then.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It was, it was truly a game of survival back then. And, you know,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I think my father could, could, could rest on that very, very comfortably, knowing


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You know, it would be one thing if that happened today. If it happened today, like it played out in 1961.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That would put a big asterisk perhaps next to a driver's name. Okay, you won the championship. Your, your rival was killed in the, in the deciding race.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Back then, you know, Sterling Moss called it a game of Russian roulette.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, you know, half the battle was to not kill yourself and my father succeeded in that.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But how did the crash affect him personally? Did he ever talk to you about it?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Never talk to me about it. No, no. I think those were complex emotions that he never could fully come to terms with.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Seen so many drivers killed, so many friends.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Could have gone back in time in 1961 and sewn up the championship earlier and taken the pressure off of trips, taken the pressure off of himself.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You know, there's so many things I think drivers could look back on in those days.


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[Assistant] And just say, I could have done it differently. We could have avoided this tragedy.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] There was just a lot of guilt, I think, and there were no sports psychologists back then to help walk you through.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] From the kind of sports psychologists that the drivers can engage with today.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He described that and he could talk about that and he would bring that up because that was just the most mournful day of his life.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It was rainy, it was cold, the way they carried out those funeral processions, there was, uh,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Trips is Ferrari cabriolet with the casket in it. They had to walk very slowly. This was a major superstar that had just died and the people were lining the streets to watch the casket go by.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And my father being a pallbearer, he was there walking alongside the car, which...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That had to go for quite a distance to get to the cemetery.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And to where they would, uh, the Tripp's family tomb was. And...


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[Assistant] There was a, you know, the, the lady dressed in black with the lantern walking in front. It was all very gloomy and dramatic.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And it was so muddy that all the drivers were slipping and sliding walking up the hill, uh, just with, with this heavy casket on their shoulders.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It was horrible, horrible. I mean, this is how you end your world championship season.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It was a day that my father was happy to get through and forget. Let's put it that way. Uh, but that was common back then. Funerals were common back then. There was a funny story there though because


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Lara Ferrari, who was Enzo's wife, was going to all the races and in fact she was kind of sent to be the minder of the team and to probably report back to Enzo what's going on.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And she was becoming quite an interference on the team in 1961. No one really enjoyed having her around. So she was sent to the funeral.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] With, uh, a guy named, uh, Senor Manny Cardi, who is the head of global sales for Ferrari.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And she wanted to get a ride back to Modena with my father and Richie Ginther.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Well, my father and Richie did not want to take Laura, Laura Ferrari back to Modena. They told her they were going to Sweden.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And Manicardi, who didn't like Laura and the feelings were mutual, uh, just ended up driving back and are passing my father and Richie, which Manicardi told my father later, uh, on the highway.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, well my father and Richie see them coming. They just, they're on the highway and they see them coming and they're in my father's Peugeot.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And they both duck. And there's Laura Ferrari and Monica Hardy.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Driving by and, and Mrs. Ferrari says, isn't that Filippo's car? And he says, I don't know. I don't see anyone driving it.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, it's interesting to, to think of what safety meant back then as to what it means today. I mean, safety is just a word we all.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, no and use and it's a part of our lives. I think safety was not yet.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Word or concept back then, I mean, what were we, just 15 years past, uh, one of the, the


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The bloodiest war the world had ever seen, the casualties in the millions, you know, the world was a different place in 1961 and


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] People's mentalities were still coming to grips with what danger was and how much we could tolerate as a society these dangerous sports and activities.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] My father did not want, you know, to die. He, he, he actually was very concerned with his, his own self preservation.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It would speak about death quite a bit, uh, and the danger of the sport.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He, he really sized up the risks and that was one reason why he didn't want to continue on and try and win more championships because he just felt the risks were too great. And one championship for my father was more than enough, more than enough given the risks it took to get that.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I think more so earlier on, you know, he really struggled with, uh,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You know, he had an ulcer, he had to take a year off in his earlier racing years.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He would get sick. I mean, he was so incredibly hyper and intense and, you know, cleaning his goggles and checking his earplugs and looking over the car. I mean, he, he was, people were looking at him going,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] This guy is completely mad. How can he be a racing driver? How can he focus? It was that moment when he put the helmet on that everything calmed down when the green flag dropped.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He was fully focused and ready to go. Sterling Moss took advantage of that sometime sitting on the grid there at Zandvoort. My father was on pole.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] In fact, he in, in, in trips had the same exact time, two-tenth of a second, but I think because my father clocked the time first, he was given pole position and


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, Sterling is there, uh, and my father's car isn't starting and he's behind him on the grid and.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He'd say things like, Phil, Phil, they're taking the back of your car. They're taking something off. What's going on? The mechanics are coming over and taking the, you know, the gearbox cover off.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And would just send my father into orbit. He would just jump out of the car. What do you mean? What's going on? You know, they knew how to wind them up because he was so locked into the moment. He was gullible in those.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Okay. That's made me easy to say in hindsight for him that, that one was enough. Um, and in fact, to be clear, I never heard him say that it just in looking back at his career and the things he said, uh, he really truly felt the risks were too great to continue to want to pursue.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Future championships, but if those championships were gonna land in his lap, he would take them.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] If Ferraris were, if the Sharknose was just as competitive in 62 as it was in 61, which it was not, he could have had two championships.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, so he stayed on with Ferrari for 1962. The British teams had caught up.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, there was, uh, what was called the palace revolt in, in all the key.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Team members left Ferrari at the end of 61. So my father was, was, was sort of stuck at Ferrari with new sporting director, new engineer, uh, new everyone.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, and the car had not developed for that season. And he had a new sporting director, Dragony.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Who wanted Italian drivers to excel. So my, you know, it was a typical Italian Ferrari divorce.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Where you're just painted into a corner and you're shown the door. And unfortunately, when he went on to ATS, where all of his old team members were, Tavone and Keaty, Baggety,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It was very promising at first, but as many, many new teams go, they were nowhere on the


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Think he had any serious falling out. It's, you, the drivers rarely saw Enzo Ferrari to begin with. You know, it was not like, uh, after every race, let's check in or let's, you know, let's be on the phone, uh, once a week. It, it was more through the team.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, Drogoni, who was the, the, the, the team sporting director just was not a fan of my father's anymore. And, uh, Forghieri was a very young engineer.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And the team directive was steered more towards who's the next talent. And they were, they were thinking that my father was affected by the trips accident.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I don't think he, that, that was maybe more of an excuse than the reality, uh, for them to say that. And you know, maybe my time, my father's time at Ferrari was up.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] His time was up. He had been with them for seven years.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Had won everything you could win with them. Uh, even Michael Schumacher had to leave at some point, right? And, uh, and so, uh, there was never any big blowout.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You know, uh, lashing out of words between him and Enzo.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You know Enzo Ferrari had bigger things to worry about. Having a Ferrari driver dead at the Italian Grand Prix, uh, was a big problem. Sure, winning the championship, great. He...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Probably was thrilled, but he couldn't say it. Uh, he couldn't go on record, you know, gloating about another championship under those circumstances. So.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That's what my father heard. Uh, it was a very difficult time, a depressing time for Enzo Ferrari.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] With the team walking out, uh, you know, your, your chief engineer is gone.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You know, your team manager is gone. Everyone's leaving and he...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He asked my father, almost pleaded with him, will you stay on for 1962?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Save money for the team. So it, it wasn't good times at Ferrari at the end of 61.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] There was a lot wrapped up in the psychology of it all with, with the drivers and the relationship to Enzo Ferrari.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You know, my father had a very strict authoritarian father himself who, who Enzo Ferrari


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Almost reminded him of, and my father admitted to wanting to have that approval from Enzo Ferrari. He sought that approval. He wanted Enzo to love him and, and, and really take him under his wing and give him that gratification that, that he never had from his own father. And it never would happen. That doesn't happen.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] At Ferrari, uh, but Enzo might lead you along to believe you're my favorite son, uh, for, for, for a minute, but, uh,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Peter Collins had that and lived across from the factory. It was just at the time that Enzo's son Dino.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Peter was really getting more and more sick, uh, with muscular dystrophy and Peter was very close with Dino and was very kind to Dino and that just, that brought him in very good graces with the team.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That was nowhere near as exciting as a Formula One in sports car career with Ferrari. I mean, yes, uh, you know, it's a big Hollywood director.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Movie stars, but if you've ever been on a film set, it's like being.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] In the formula one paddock on a, on a Thursday afternoon, it's not the glamorous side of racing and things move slowly and you know, it's, I got to relate more to that having been a stunt driver on Ford versus Ferrari.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And I did a lot of reading into what that Grand Prix experience, uh, was, uh, you know, filming for Grand Prix with my father.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yes, I got the call. Uh, I've had my own brush with, with celebrity with Christian Bale and Matt Damon and, and thank goodness it was a, it was a success in the box office. People seemed to really enjoy it and I, and I was


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Proud to be part of what was, was an entertaining racing film. What cars were you driving?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I was driving, these were not real GT40s or, or Porsches or Ferrari P3s, P4s, they were, uh, film cars, movie cars, you know, they were, uhm,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I won't even tell you what they were made of, but they were, they looked good and they looked correct.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But I was primarily driving GT40s, the GT40.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, movie cars. Uh, and we'd all bounce around and drive different cars, but I got to be Graham Hill.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] For the start of the Le Mans race, uh, which was fun because I'm the first to get away if you watch the film. Uh, then I got to be Bruce McLaren crossing the finish line.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, driving really closely in, in the scenes where Christian Bale, who, who's, who's playing the main character, Ken Miles, is looking over, uh, over at Bruce McLaren and we were, I was just


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Placed wherever I needed to be, uh, you know, for the director and for the stunt coordinator.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Oh, that's a, you know, my father was a very complex person, very complex, and I'm still learning about the man, uh, years after he's passed away, and


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You know, he had to do a lot of soul searching, a lot of soul searching because


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You know, motor racing isn't necessarily a nurturing environment, uh, to grow as a human being in terms of


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Family and certain aspects, certain aspects I'm sure all drivers could agree on.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And my father took it as far as he could as a racing driver in that environment. But beyond racing.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I think he had to completely get away from it. He had to completely, completely remove himself from the sport. And almost look back at it like.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It was a meaningless pursuit. In fact he went through years of feeling like it was a meaningless pursuit.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Until he could kind of discover who he was and, uh, meeting my mother was, was a big, big step in his life and having a family. He went fully into his hobby of, of antique cars and restoration.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, so he, he became a more laid back person than he, he had been as a racing driver. But uhm, still he was very intense and you know, was he the perfect father? Not by any stretch. I mean...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He himself was terrible at sports, at the typical sports one plays growing up. You know, over here, baseball and soccer and basketball and all those things.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, he, he, he was terrified of even catching a ball, uh, you know, in, in a mitt. So.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He never engaged in that way with me. He never showed up at a little league baseball game or a school event. And that was tough for me growing up.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But where we really bonded was when I started racing cars and, and I had a really good, uh, few years there.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] With being with my dad on the road and, and having a great time with him. Having a great time.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] No, I mean he would see me watching, uh, basketball on the telly and he would say,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] What is that game? Throwing this ball in a basket and then he would walk out of the room.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He just didn't get it. He didn't, he was 100% an automotive guy and into cars all the way. So, you know, I didn't have that relationship with him when it came to competition or anything.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I just remember a wedding happening, a Spanish wedding, which goes definitely all night and into the morning, uh, not getting a lot of sleep before that test.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You know, the word proud is a difficult one for me. It's all I ever knew who he was. I admire him immensely for what he accomplished and who he was, for all of his faults and quirks and


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You know, not being the, the, the normal fun dad that, that, that everyone might want to have. He was so interesting and he lived such an interesting life and he let you kind of ride the coattails.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So, you know, going with him to the Le Mans 24 hours or the Belgian or Italian Grand Prix as I did, uh, on occasions and seeing just how the world is


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Open their arms to him and the admiration that they had for him.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And seeing how much gratification that would give him and just sort of fill up his tanks with, with, uh, just so much goodness. I don't know. I just saw that he was a, he was somebody who lived his life to the absolute fullest and was shameless about it. You know, it didn't matter.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] What, what conformities he, he might feel he, he had to, to have to, to, to be, you know, a good father or a good this or good that he, he lived his life straight to what he loved. And that was motor racing. It was automobiles. And, and he brought us as a family into it, uh, in, in many ways. And so I, I just couldn't,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Couldn't have asked for a better dad in that sense. It's been an, it was an interesting ride having Phil as a dad.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He'd be thrilled. He'd be thrilled to know, um, he, he, he was still being honored. Absolutely. Absolutely. Uh, he'd want to know who's going to win the race.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Max or Lewis? What's going on? What's next? I mean, I think he would be...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Absolutely mind blown that they're still racing at, uh,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It's Zandvoort and, you know, it's great to see these circuits are still being used.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That, that he was racing on so many years ago.


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[Assistant] Hi everyone and welcome to another episode of Beyond the Grid with me, Tom Clarkson. Now I hope you're all doing okay during these difficult times of isolation.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Try to stay positive and I hope you enjoy the next hour and a bit because my guest this week is a terrific former racer and a great raconteur.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He's a man who stood on three Formula One podiums in the nineties and is also a winner of the Le Mans 24 hours and multiple IndyCar races. During his career, he worked with some of the best drivers in history, including Ayrton Senna, and he developed some of the most advanced tech the sport has ever known while he was test driver at Williams and McLaren.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He's also the guy who had the cards fallen differently could have been driving the 1993 Williams instead of Damon Hill. Just think what that would have done to his career. I'm talking of course about Mark Blundell.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Mark's Formula One story is not your average one. He was born into a family that had no real passion for car racing. As a youngster, he got his speed fix driving secondhand cars around his father's car dealership. And it was through grit, bloody mindedness and talent that he fought his way through the ranks to Formula One.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It says a lot about Mark that when he got his offer to race for Brabham in 1991,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He immediately telephoned his friend Damon and suggested that he take his place as the Williams test driver. And while Mark went on to struggle in an uncompetitive Brabham, Damon thrived at Williams and was to get the nod alongside Alain Prost for 1993. And the rest is history.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But Mark's a fighter. Having dropped off the grid, he forced his way back into Formula One alongside his friend Martin Brundle at Ligier, and he then replaced none other than Nigel Mansell at McLaren in 1995 after a spell at Tyrrell.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Marks was a roller coaster Grand Prix career and we talk about everything from the realities of living on a back of the grid Formula One wage while raising a young family to his enduring friendship with Martin Brundle and his life now as a businessman and driver manager. I hope you enjoy our conversation.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Mark, welcome to Beyond the Grid. Lovely to have you on the show. Now, I want to start by asking you about the first time you drove a Formula One car. Can you just paint the scene for us? Where were you and what impact did the car have on you?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You touched on it a minute ago. It was a very, very fast transition for you from motocross, which is what you'd done as a kid, through to Formula One, just five years. Why do you think Williams took a punt on someone so inexperienced really?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And John McDonald, big mate of Bernie Ecclestone. So you were getting, you were sort of friends with the right people at that time.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You were with Williams for two years, and that meant you touched base with, well, obviously Patrick Head, who was the technical director, but also Adrian Newey came on board at Williams at that time. What impression did they make on a young Mark Blundell?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] How good were FW12 and FW13, those two cars that you would have been driving at the time?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] How much of things like the semi-automatic gearbox and the active ride that you'd been working on, how much of that lot come on since you'd driven it before?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Cool, that must have been an awesome bullet. So you had a three year testing deal with Williams, 89, 90 and 91.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] As you've touched on, you ended up racing for Brabham in 91. How did that deal come about?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But you say you didn't have a manager. Was John McDonald the closest thing you had to a manager?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] What were your hopes going into that 91 season with Brabham? Because you've given up the Williams testing rule.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Renault obviously at the time, you know, were the engine to have. So it was the right package, the Williams Renault. Bootson and, and Patrese were coming towards the end of their careers. Did you not think there might be an opening at Williams in the near future? Why the Brabham thing? You know, am I bringing up really bad memories? I'm so sorry.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Well now here's the thing, I don't want you to slap me, but I mean, do you wake up in the middle of the night thinking...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That could have been me. Because it really could have been you by the sounds of it.


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[Assistant] Just a relief to get out of that situation at the end of 91.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Exactly. So it doesn't make you slower having a kid, but it might influence the decisions you make because you go to end of living.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Do you ever wish you could learn a new language, but you're apprehensive about how difficult it might be? Or perhaps you feel you don't have the time to do it in your already overloaded schedule? Well, Babbel might be exactly what you need.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I can speak some French, and I even tried interviewing French F1 star Olivier Panis in his mother tongue back in the day.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But I've forgotten it all since then and I'm certainly not fluent by any means.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But Babbel is available as an app or accessible online and is on hand to help you and me learn a new language or simply to brush up on your linguistic skills in a matter of weeks. And it's so simple to use. You can choose from 14 different languages, including Spanish, French, Italian and German.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And what's really refreshing is that Babbel teaches real life conversation. You can learn through interactive dialogues and their speech recognition technology helps you to improve your pronunciation and accent in your chosen language. You can start out as a newcomer mastering the basics and graduate up to an advanced level on your learning journey.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The lessons are created by more than a hundred real-life language experts, which adds that personal touch. And it doesn't matter whether you complete your lesson online one day and via the app the next, because your progress will be synced across all devices, so you can fit your learning into your lifestyle.


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[Assistant] Babbel is designed to get you speaking your new language within weeks with daily 10 to 15 minute lessons. That's all it takes. A little dedication every day. So try Babbel today. Go to babbel.co.uk or download the app for free. That's babbel.co.uk or download the app for free. Babbel, learn a new language and make it your own. Right, let's get back to Mark.


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[Assistant] So you got pole position at Le Mans in 1990 and I think you were six, have I got this right, six seconds faster? Just over six seconds faster. Yeah. I think than anybody. I mean, what a lot. That was back in the day when it was the, the Mulsanne was.


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[Assistant] I think there's a, there's a trend here that as we've discussed it already, how you came through very quickly from, from motocross to full motocross. The more grunt you had under your right foot, the more Mark Blundell seemed to


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[Assistant] So you don't think the lack of karting penalized you because you were doing that and motocross is all balance as well, isn't it?


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[Assistant] Now in case anyone listening to this is wondering why I'm suddenly talking to you about Le Mans 1990, I was thinking, because that was the Nissan and you got that pole position, is that what put you on the map in Japan and ultimately led to the Brabham drive, which was owned by a Japanese businessman?


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[Assistant] How fantastic. So, and what goes around comes around because of course you come into contact with Wilkinshaw and Formula One a bit later, but how did Brundle in 92 end up in a Benetton and you were forced to go back testing? He's a lot smarter than me.


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[Assistant] Briatori, Flavio Briatori said that Martin is the only teammate who properly worried Schumacher at Benetton.


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[Assistant] How much of a lure was the prospect of working with Ayrton Senna? In particular, Gail Helberger as well, but particularly Ayrton Senna.


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[Assistant] Got the royal seal of approval on this, right? And what made him so special inside the cockpit? Did you, I mean, looking at his data, looking at his feedback?


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[Assistant] And what about your relationship with Senna going forward, after 92?


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[Assistant] Was he aloof and didn't really talk to anyone or did you feel you had a relationship?


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[Assistant] Can that take us back to Mark Blundell? Parents. You come home and you've got little children vomiting on your shoulder and things like that. You can't be selfish when you have children. I think maybe there was a... You can, but it doesn't mean...


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[Assistant] How inter- and did you feel that when you went to Leisure? You were in a French team, the Brit coming in, little bit of a language barrier I'm guessing, and it made you a bit different? 100%.


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[Assistant] Was this 93 season your happiest time, certainly in Formula One, but almost as in your career as a racing driver? Uhm, two podiums, great car, proper engine, mate in the other car, Martin Brundle.


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[Assistant] And a great race in Germany as well, great DICE with Gerhard Berger on your way to the podium again.


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[Assistant] All this must make you a bloody good manager in your role today. Cause all this life experience. I remember Yosh Verstappen on this podcast saying last year that actually his F1 career was a fact finding mission to create the perfect driver in Max Verstappen today. He's used his experience to do that. And I guess you're doing that now with Kalamailot and all the other guys on the books.


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[Assistant] School of, I mean, who would have thought after that 91 season, which, okay, you got their first point, but it wasn't a great season that they would have been instrumental in you driving for them again.


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[Assistant] That's how you ended up back at McLaren as well, back in 95, because of the relationship you build up there in 92. But before we get onto that, um, Harvey Pothelsweig, you've worked with Patrick Head, you've worked with Adrian Newey.


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[Assistant] Uh, Steve Nichols at McLaren, et cetera. Harvey, God bless his soul. What an amazing engineer. How, I mean, Mike Gascon, you mentioned him can't praise Harvey enough. Is that, is that where you are in terms of working with him?


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[Assistant] Even in a small team like Tyrrell, obviously when he was at Ferrari, he had huge resource to do whatever he wanted, but that was still the attitude at Tyrrell.


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[Assistant] Really interesting to hear you say, cause wasn't Patrick Head, there was that famous quote, drivers are like light bulbs, you can just take one out and put another one in. And yet you say you actually fed off that.


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[Assistant] And how good then was that 94 Tyrrell? Okay, it had the Amaha engine. I'm guessing that wasn't as good as the Renault that you'd had the previous year, but you still managed to get that podium in Spain.


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[Assistant] So look, back to McLaren for 95, although of course Mansell, Nigel Mansell was meant to be, he was the big signing coming into that year. I mean, did you?


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[Assistant] Were you a member of the McLaren team at the start of 95 or were you drafted in when the Mansell situation didn't work out?


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[Assistant] You were, I guess you were a race driver for McLaren, you know, and they just started the partnership with Mercedes and.


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[Assistant] So all the while you say the likes of Patrick Head and Harvey Pottersway were great at motivating a driver and you wanted to do well for them. Are you suggesting that Ron perhaps wasn't on the same wavelength?