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[Assistant] The sad twist was that Frank Melish and Rick Nolan had been friends for their whole careers and now they were lying on the ground together.


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[Assistant] Next, I help put Private William Cushley into a bag.


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[Assistant] I'll never forget looking directly into his still open eyes and saying, sorry bro. As I zipped up his body bag.


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[Assistant] As you went through that emotion, and then you turn around and you go, okay, what's next?


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[Assistant] And part of that, you know, and, and, and for one thing, when I, when I, you know, was reading that in,


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[Assistant] I mean, obviously it's just emotional moment and I knew that you just had to detach from the emotion. I use that term all the time.


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[Assistant] And you gotta be conscious of that. So like, folks that are listening.


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[Assistant] That are thinking, how do you do that? That's how you do it. You cannot, you got, when you feel the emotions starting to override.


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[Assistant] Your logic and your ability to do your duty. That's what you have to do. You have to go, okay, I got to detach from those emotions and I got to do my job now.


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[Assistant] Well, I think the reason that is, is because it's so hard for people that don't know what that brotherhood is like. They don't know what it's like to want to do that. They don't understand that that's


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[Assistant] That's the soldier in the child. That's the way you've wanted to be your whole life. That's the way I wanted to be my whole life. So to, for these things to happen is, is,


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[Assistant] It's like feeling bad for an MMA fighter because they got punched in the face. You signed up for it. You signed up for it and those guys, you know, they're there to fight and the military, you're there to fight and a byproduct of fighting in this situation can be injury. It can be death. And like you said, it's what we all signed up for.


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[Assistant] And, you know, going back to the situation here, one of the things that


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[Assistant] You talked about the fact that you guys didn't secure your objective and one of the reasons that you didn't secure your objective the next day.


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[Assistant] Is because you had another friendly fire incident. And this is awful, and you know, the book that I wrote with Leif starts off with a friendly fire scenario happening. And I wish I could explain to civilians


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[Assistant] It's really hard for people to understand how these things happen. I mean, we've already talked about it, what, two times in this book? Here's another one.


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[Assistant] A10s come in. You're, you're basically like half awake.


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[Assistant] Trying to get, trying to get a little bit of sleep. Yeah. And all of a sudden, you know, you hear the gunfire, you hear things happening, all of a sudden you hear an A-10 burst go.


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[Assistant] And Cash, your, your, your teammate Cash, he's like, you're not gonna believe this, but I think he just strafed our own guys. Strafed is when you fire machine gun, cannon, uh, automatic weapon fires from an aircraft. And sure enough, 30 soldiers, more than 30 soldiers were injured.


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[Assistant] And one was killed, and by the way, the one that was killed was Private Mark Graham, who was a Olympic spreader for Canada in 1992 in Barcelona.


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[Assistant] In Ramadi there was incidents where humvees engaged other humvees.


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[Assistant] Especially when you're in the military. But that's, to your point, that's the level of confusion and mayhem and chaos that happens. And just the mentality of guys when they're scared and all of a sudden they see muzzle flash and oh, okay, you know what? Boom. Oh, I see something over there. Engage.


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[Assistant] A bunch of small mistakes that compound, and not even mistakes, just situational actions that compound into a tragic situation.


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[Assistant] So you guys continue doing sniper operations. You guys continue.


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[Assistant] Going on missions, you support SF, you support others, lots of really solid missions, and now you're out on another operation, you're patrolling


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[Assistant] Through a village and again, it's your, your team that you've been with the whole time. You're following Cash, your boy Cash. And I'm gonna go to the book here.


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[Assistant] And a massive orange fireball soared across my face. I didn't hear a sound.


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[Assistant] For a few seconds, I felt weightless, as if I was suspended in space.


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[Assistant] The next thing I knew, I was on the ground. My ears, nose and mouth tasted like mud.


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[Assistant] I started punching the ground and screaming, oh my god, oh my god. It was the only time in my life I've ever uttered anything religious.


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[Assistant] The blast was so powerful that it knocked Cash down and I saw him in the dirt up ahead of me. For a few seconds, I couldn't see Barry or Gord.


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[Assistant] They had probably done what good snipers are supposed to do upon hearing the explosion. Run for cover and prepare for an ambush.


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[Assistant] A few seconds later, once they realized what had happened, they came running back towards me.


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[Assistant] So there it is. Did you know, did you know it was an IED?


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[Assistant] I remember the first time, the first time I was ever getting shot, I was in Humvees and I'm going over a bridge in Baghdad and


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[Assistant] Again, this is going back to what you were talking about, like when you don't really know what combat's like.


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[Assistant] And I'm looking up ahead of me at the Humvee ahead of me. And I see these.


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[Assistant] But my point is that you don't always know what, what's happening. And you know, in the urban environment, you didn't know where shots were coming from. You get like rounds would be going overhead. You could not tell where they were coming from. You know, if they're hitting something, you can kind of get a general idea, but you don't always know what's happening. And all right. So now going back to the book here, my mates were all around me now.


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[Assistant] The next hour was the longest of my life. I was in absolute agony and trying hard to stay positive. I was also trying hard not to think about the possibility of bleeding out.


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[Assistant] With each passing minute, I was growing weaker and weaker. Every time I closed my eyes, it was harder to open them again. I knew that if I lost consciousness, it was over. Barry and Gord were standing over me. Do you think I'm going to make it? I asked Gord. Of course you're gonna make it. Never give up, bro. You know that.


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[Assistant] None of us. So for those that you don't know, there's something called TCCC, Tactical Combat Casualty Care. It's a very short course.


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[Assistant] Is how to keep somebody alive when this stuff happens. That's what the goal is. And it doesn't take a super amount of knowledge. It takes some, some concepts. Number one, stop the bleeding.


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[Assistant] And, but none of your guys had been to it, but they still saved your life.


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[Assistant] The recce platoon, just throwing this out there, they just came. They just didn't even wait for it as they were just coming.


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[Assistant] They got me dad, the Taliban, but I'm alive. I'm going into surgery. I'm going to get through this. Don't worry.


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[Assistant] Because you always hear of, end up basically complimenting like all my buddies.


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[Assistant] Anybody that knows I got wounded, they're like, hey, don't worry about it. I'm gonna be okay.


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[Assistant] You called your dad like, dad, I'm wounded, I'm going into surgery, don't worry about me. You know? Uh, that's, that's why, actually, what's funny is, uh, Mikey Mansour, who was one of my guys, got killed in Ramadi, and, I mean, they were in grueling, sustained


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[Assistant] Combat every single day. Firefights. I mean, he went Winchester on his...


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[Assistant] Oh yeaah, sorry. Winchester means you're out of ammo. So I went to see, I went to his camp pretty early in deployment, maybe


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[Assistant] Three or four weeks into deployment. I went over to their camp to see how things were going. And someone's like, oh, go check out the video that Mikey made. And I go, okay, cool. And Mikey shows me this video.


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[Assistant] I'm looking at him laughing, and then, you know, me being Mr. Professional, and I go, hey man, and he's a new guy, right? And I'm, you know, Jocko, you know? And so I go, hey man.


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[Assistant] What are you doing filming when there's a firefight going on? I go, you need to get your gun up. Like, I don't want to see this again. And he's like, hey, sorry, sir. But I was Winchester.


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[Assistant] Yeah, it's not like Mikey wasn't carrying a ton around, but like I said, my point of telling this story was that, you know, this was happening on a


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[Assistant] You know, fairly regular basis. Definitely FireFights. He wasn't going to Winchester all the time, but he did go to Winchester multiple times. And he was in...


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[Assistant] Almost daily firefights, right? I remember that for, for this is an actual number. So the first 24 operations that that element went on in a row, they got into a firefight in the city.


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[Assistant] Just, you know, don't worry about anything. It's just fine.


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[Assistant] So that reminds me if you, uh, yeaah, don't worry about it dad. It just got blown up.


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[Assistant] Here we go. I woke up with a doctor looming over me. Took a few moments for the anesthetics to wear off.


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[Assistant] And for me to remember where I was and what was going on.


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[Assistant] Then it came back to me in a rush. The mission, the landmine, the pain, the surgery.


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[Assistant] The surgeon standing by my bed put it to me bluntly. I had to cut off both your feet.


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[Assistant] Boom. I believe earlier we were talking about


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[Assistant] And uhm, anyways, one of my buddies was talking to him. And he's like, bro man.


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[Assistant] I'm really sorry about, you know, cause he lost his leg, he was rolling, I'm really sorry about your leg. You know? And he goes, fuck my leg.


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[Assistant] Or like a prescription, like okay, here's what you're gonna do now.


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[Assistant] So as you're saying this, that's actually the next portion that I was gonna read. And here you go, exactly what you were just about to get into. From that point on, I made it my mission to learn to walk again. I treated rehab like a military course. When the military wants a soldier to learn something, they send them on a course. So that's the approach I took with my rehab. The mission mindset right there.


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[Assistant] And now we start going into the fact that it was obvious that the military system just couldn't quite cope with my needs.


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[Assistant] Sure, I was offered help with all sorts of things from rehab to finding a home, but no one truly understood the needs that are particular to a returning soldier. And neither did I.


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[Assistant] And you compare that in the book you talk about when you went to the Center for Intrepid in San Antonio, and now you had the American system, which has been unfortunately,


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[Assistant] Dealing with thousands and thousands and thousands.


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[Assistant] So they had experience and they have a giant amount of money. I mean, this is America and we do have a lot of money and they put a lot of money into it.


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[Assistant] And at the same time, you had some Canadian folks that were like, ah, we don't need that kind of stuff. We don't need those kind of things for rehab.


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[Assistant] Or you need to be compared to. Okay, look at this guy over here, he's grappling with another dude even though he's blind, he's missing a leg. Are you ready to get it on?


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[Assistant] There's a reason, and I say this all the time, there's a reason why the best athletes in the world have coaches.


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[Assistant] That's the fact. It's because somebody has gotta like show you the way.


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[Assistant] And you can, and furthermore, you can only push yourself so hard. I know for a fact, you can only push yourself to 107%.


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[Assistant] A coach is going to get you to 117%. They're going to push you a little bit harder. They'll have no mercy. And so that's what you need. That's what everybody.


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[Assistant] It was, it was the best care to the capability and the knowledge and understanding that they had not only of their job, but of the people that they were working with.


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[Assistant] Yeah, in other words, you got, if you got a 72 year old diabetic that has an amputation, the four pound weight is good. And that you can try and transfer that over to Jody middick who just got off the battlefield three weeks ago. He's a different


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[Assistant] So hence, hence this part of the book.


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[Assistant] Ironically, one of the biggest emotional problems I had to deal with was the anger I felt towards a medical system that did not seem to be able to respond appropriately to my needs.


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[Assistant] Now, you ended up putting on weight because you couldn't exercise.


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[Assistant] And you do give a little shout out right here to the Dairy Queen.


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[Assistant] In conjunction with the therapy sessions, I also started taking an antidepressant to start to help control my moods. And then there was the other kind of pain, the physical kind.


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[Assistant] I was still using painkillers to dull the pain that was there each and every day. I needed that relief so badly, but in the end, that too caused me tremendous suffering.


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[Assistant] And I turned into something I never thought I would be. An addict.


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[Assistant] We've definitely are seeing this happen with our wounded veterans.


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[Assistant] And here you go. In no time, I was taking more of the drug than I was supposed to in order to relieve my psychological and physical pain.


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[Assistant] The addiction worsened and I started crushing the pills into a powder and snorting it to get a better high.


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[Assistant] Those pills gave me relief from my stress and mental pain, if only for a little while. But as soon as they wore off, my demons would return.


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[Assistant] And you've already said that a bunch of times. That feeling of, I mean, everything you'd been in your life. From when you were a kid.


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[Assistant] That was what was inside of you and then you were able to act on that and become that soldier. Serve in combat. Get after it on the battlefield.


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[Assistant] And that question, you know, when I was reading that, when, you know, I had a buddy that, uh, retired the other day, you know, 25 years. And.


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[Assistant] I just said to him, I said, how was it cleaning out your locker? Cause I don't know what it's like for you guys, but in the SEAL teams, you have a locker and that's, your whole career is physically represented and the lockers are big. They're, they're, they're walk-in lockers. They're awesome. Oh wow.


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[Assistant] Anything that you picked up along the way, trinkets, just everything is in your drawing cage.


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[Assistant] You go, you clean out your cage, it's empty, you sweep out the floor, you gloat it into your van, you drive home and that's it, it's over.


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[Assistant] So I said to my buddy the other day, I said, you know, how was it, uh,


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[Assistant] How was it cleaning out your drying cage? Cause I, that for me, I wasn't even worried about retiring. I didn't even think about retiring. I'm like, okay, I gotta go do this. Gotta do this. I'm all good. Come back.


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[Assistant] Clean out my cage. And I'm like, oh, this is over. And for me, I spent 18 out of 20 years out here on the west coast and all within like a stone's throw of the different buildings. I mean, all within these certain number of buildings since I was a kid.


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[Assistant] The question, so when I was reading that you wrote this, that's what I was thinking about. What my buddy was thinking.


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[Assistant] If I'm not a soldier, if I'm not a SEAL, then what am I?


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[Assistant] Yeah, and years ago, World War I, probably World War II, you wouldn't have made it. They wouldn't have had to deal with you.


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[Assistant] Because you would have bled out, they didn't know TCCC, they wouldn't have gotten you Kazvac, I mean it would have been, you would have died. That's all there is to it.


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[Assistant] Vietnam got a lot better, in terms of the Cazavac situation. They get helicopters and they're a lot faster, that's why you got a lot more loaded.


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[Assistant] You got done with, you did a half marathon, but after that half marathon you were just too beat up from that. And you decided that, well here's what you put in the book, I tell people


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[Assistant] That Jodie the soldier was wounded in January of 2007, but it took him about two years to die. To let the soldier in you go.


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[Assistant] And I'm gonna continue. Of course, this wasn't an easy decision for me and I was filled with rage and anger. And again, I started using Oxycontin as a relief from the pain of loss.


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[Assistant] It became my problem yet again, but I deluded myself into believing I had it under my control.


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[Assistant] You talk about this thing where you're reading a Reader's Digest article and there's an Oxycontin addict in there and he's talking about how he's shooting it up and


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[Assistant] You said to yourself, you weren't thinking, oh, that's, that's horrible. I can't believe it. You're like, hm.


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[Assistant] That is what hits you. Realizing, that's when you realize you weren't in control, right? I mean, that's gotta be that moment.


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[Assistant] I mean that's awesome credit to you on that because so many people, mm, unfortunately they don't.


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[Assistant] Those three days, here's your quote. Those three days were absolute horror.


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[Assistant] Quitting Oxycontin was harder and more painful than getting blown up in Afghanistan.


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[Assistant] Oxycontin anymore, and now it's what am I gonna do with my life? And here you go, what did I actually want and what was possible? And could I really put my military past behind me and pursue something else that would make me feel fulfilled? But it was time to stop asking questions. It was time to find some answers.


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[Assistant] And here you're kind of referring back and it's the last chapter. Uhm, it's called On My Own Two Feet. I'm glad you still got a sense of humor after all this.


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[Assistant] So, a lot of professional athletes will tell you they miss two things when they retire. The competition on the field and the camaraderie with the teammates in the locker room. It's the exact same thing for soldiers after we leave the armed forces.


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[Assistant] Just letting everybody know that that's completely normal. For all you guys that got out for whatever reason, totally normal.


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[Assistant] Jodie feels it. I feel it. We all feel that.


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[Assistant] So then you went and did the Amazing Race in Canada.


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[Assistant] Yeah, no, and I actually, uh, I have a question about your wife. Okay. I was gonna give you an opportunity. Did I steal some of your thunder? Not at all. Okay. Not at all. Uh, I'm glad you, I'm glad you put that out there. And also, I didn't want to steal thunder from your book.


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[Assistant] Roger that. That was one of the things that I was gonna tell people. I mean, obviously, I think people are just gonna buy this. I mean, obviously, I-


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[Assistant] There's, this is a big book which I've taken some excerpts out of.


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[Assistant] And there's so much more in it when you read it and you get the whole, the whole package. One of which is you explaining these relationships with your wife, with your kids, how that happened.


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[Assistant] I mean for all practical purposes, let's just call it what it is. That's a miracle.


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[Assistant] If I regret my time in Afghanistan because it cost me my two feet and completely changed my life.


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[Assistant] If you live your life with regrets, then you never move forward.


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[Assistant] Those six months in Afghanistan before the explosion were some of the best times of my life.


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[Assistant] I can honestly say, as I look back on my life in the military, I wouldn't have changed a thing.


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[Assistant] If I hadn't stepped on that landmine, I would never have connected with Alana.


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[Assistant] I would never have had two beautiful daughters. My mind and body were pushed to the limit.


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[Assistant] After my accident. And ironically, I came out on the other side a better, more complete person. Maybe life would be easier now if I hadn't lost a part of both legs. But it certainly wouldn't have been any more complete.


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[Assistant] When I want, when I am in public today, advocating for veterans rights or simply going about my daily life, people sometimes approach me to say, thank you for your service.


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[Assistant] Those five words mean more to me than anything else.


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[Assistant] And now I'd like to say something, Jodie. From me?


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[Assistant] And on behalf of every American, Canadian, Brit, Australian, and the rest of the free world.


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[Assistant] And your inspiration to all of us to overcome obstacles and to make a difference in the world.


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[Assistant] And I think that's gonna be enough for tonight. So, if you haven't got this feeling yet and you're listening to the podcast, I know you're gonna wanna go out and get this book.


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[Assistant] It's called Unflinching, the Making of a Canadian Sniper. By the man right here, Jody Mitick. It's...


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[Assistant] The Jocko store? He wants to go through Jocko store. I like your recommendations there.


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[Assistant] If you, uh, you're on social media, the web. I do the webs.


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[Assistant] I'm not gonna judge. Okay. Not gonna judge. Uhm, yeaah. You can find Jodie Minick on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and for all you


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[Assistant] Well, we appreciate everything that you've done as I've already said to everybody else out there that's listening. I think we're going to actually continue this on and we're going to go to a Q&A on the next podcast and we'll just roll that out afterwards. But for right now,


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[Assistant] And for this evening, I think that's about all we've got. So everyone that's out there that listened to this, that knows that a person can go to some depths.


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[Assistant] I could climb right back out of those depths.


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[Assistant] This is Jocko Podcast number 50 with Echo Charles and me, Jocko Willink. Good evening, Echo.


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[Assistant] That is probably the most famous of all of Shakespeare's lines. And in fact, it's so famous that it's often, unfortunately, used as a punchline, used as a joke.


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[Assistant] What Shakespeare is actually talking about. He's talking about death.


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[Assistant] And more specifically in this case, he's talking about suicide.


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[Assistant] And Prince Hamlet, the character that delivers that famous line, who's often called insane, but who himself says, I am essentially not in madness.


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[Assistant] But mad in craft, meaning he is playing the role of insanity to further his own objectives. But not everybody even agrees on that point.


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[Assistant] In other words, he's talking about, is it worth it to suffer through the problems we have in life? And he goes on, or to take arms against a sea of troubles, and by opposing, end them.


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[Assistant] Meaning, should we, should we fight against the pain of life? This sea of troubles? And in that fight,


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[Assistant] So he's saying that death lets you escape all these hardships of life.


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[Assistant] And he finishes it out, tis a consummation devoutly to be wished for, to die.


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[Assistant] This is a guest who I've come to know. Since I sort of...


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[Assistant] This guest happens to be the person that actually debuted me to the world that brought me into the world.


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[Assistant] I was certainly a Tim Ferriss listener.


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[Assistant] The human guinea pig, the investor, the author, just, you know, Mr. Smart, successful, healthy guy who's out there enjoying the fruits of life.


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[Assistant] And with all that stuff in my mind, there I was in the first ever interview I had ever actually done with anybody ever.


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[Assistant] It's an interesting setup going into this for me, right? We're alone.


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[Assistant] I don't know Tim. I'm not the most open person in the first place. I don't know Tim. We meet two hours before. Now we're in his house alone at a table. And the interview starts going kind of Jockoish pretty quickly and I start going a little bit heavy on some stuff.


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[Assistant] And at one point, Tim asked me about books that I've read and I brought up About Face and, and then I brought up Cormac McCarthy, Blood Meridian.


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[Assistant] The darkness. Not just the darkness of the world, but the dark.


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[Assistant] And Tim, after I described that darkness.


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[Assistant] He said something along the lines of, like, hey Jaco, I struggle with this.


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[Assistant] How much should I voluntarily expose myself to darkness? Because I've had my own ups and downs that I contend with.


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[Assistant] And then he kind of took that question from there and from that personal level and he really quickly transferred it into


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[Assistant] Something that was more about the world than about humanity in general. But the initial question...


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[Assistant] That Tim started to ask, it wasn't about the world. And it wasn't about humanity in general. The question that Tim was asking was about Tim.


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[Assistant] I, it went right over my head, but when I listened to the interview, I caught it. And I heard it. And I heard that.


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[Assistant] Beneath this guy that we all see, this happy-go-lucky exterior.


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[Assistant] Kind of a solid image of mental and physical and spiritual strength. There was some darkness in there.


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[Assistant] And Tim and I were going back and forth a few weeks ago and


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[Assistant] He said something to me, you know, I'm not sure if I'm aligned with the types of guests you normally have on your podcast. And thinking back instantly to that moment, I said, oh no Tim, you, you definitely are. Because you are a person.


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[Assistant] You're a human and this is a podcast about human nature and despite all the success you've had,


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[Assistant] I mean, most of the time it's some indirect messaging or some messaging through Facebook, but people will ask me about suicide, whether they're having those thoughts, and I haven't really addressed it directly.


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[Assistant] Because even though it's, it's, suicide has definitely impacted my life directly in some


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[Assistant] Awful and horrible ways that I'll never forget.


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[Assistant] Mr. Tim Ferriss, welcome to the show and thank you for coming on. Thanks for having me on.


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[Assistant] Now, I don't even wanna play around here. I wanna, I wanna get right in, I wanna get this hard stuff done.


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[Assistant] I wanna talk about this, this book that you, you just put out. It's called Tools of Titans. And,


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[Assistant] In this book, and I just got done telling you this, you know, I-


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[Assistant] I looked and found the blog post that you had originally written.


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[Assistant] That's named a very Tim Ferriss name in my opinion. It's, it's some practical thoughts on suicide, right? Only Tim would think about practical thoughts on suicide. So, and you sent me the book and I had found that blog post and I'd read it.


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[Assistant] But when you sent me the book, I saw that you would put it in the book. And I think that was awesome for you to do that. To put it in this book so that people have access to it.


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[Assistant] So, I wanna get into this piece of it right now. From the book. And, here we go.


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[Assistant] Some practical thoughts on suicide. In this chapter, I'm gonna talk about suicide and why I'm still on this planet.


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[Assistant] It might seem dark, but the objective is to give hope and tools to those who need them. It is a much larger number than you might imagine.


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[Assistant] I kept the following story secret from my family, girlfriends, and closest friends for years.


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[Assistant] Recently however, I had an experience that shook me, woke me up, and I decided that it was time to share everything.


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[Assistant] So despite the shame I might feel, the fear that is making my palms sweat as I type this allow me to get started.


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[Assistant] Here we go. So you had some serious hesitation on putting this out there in the first place.


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[Assistant] The story that you tell here is, is the story of what made you finally decide to, to talk about it in the public forum. And it, what happened was a guy came up to you and said, you were at an event, a guy comes up to you and says, hey, can you, can you sign this for my brother? It would mean a lot to him. And you, you know, you give him the, hey, no problem.


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[Assistant] You, you kind of notice that there's something odd about the way the guy's acting, but you sign the book and a little while later,


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[Assistant] As you're leaving, he comes up and he says, you know, I gotta talk to you. And you say, hey, gotta leave, but what do you got? Let's go walk with me.


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[Assistant] And you find out that this guy's younger brother, who you had just signed the book for, had recently killed himself at the age of 22.


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[Assistant] And this guy told you, people listen to you, Tim.


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[Assistant] Have you ever thought about talking about these things, about suicide or depression? You might be able to save someone.


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[Assistant] And then you say here in the book, I didn't know what to say. I also didn't have an excuse unbeknownst to him. I had every reason to talk about suicide.


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[Assistant] Some of my closest high school friends killed themselves. Some of my closest college friends killed themselves.


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[Assistant] And there you were a public figure and you hadn't, you had never talked about this. Now, as I said, for me,


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[Assistant] I certainly have brushed up against suicide, starting with...


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[Assistant] My best friend when I was a kid, uh, a kid named Jeff and I had joined the Navy and


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[Assistant] I was in seal training and I got, we had kind of grown apart and


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[Assistant] Uh, I talked about this when I was on your podcast, you know, I grew up with in, in a rural area in New England and there was a lot of hippies and just kids, you know, dead heads and whatnot. And I didn't go in that direction, but my really good friend did. And he ended up getting heavily involved in drugs and.


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[Assistant] Booze and everything else and he got involved with a girl and when they broke up, he killed himself. In a horrible way that I'm not even gonna talk about. But.


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[Assistant] I got word of it, I was going through SEAL training, and I get word that this kid, you know, that I was such good friends with, killed himself.


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[Assistant] And again, one of my best friends in the SEAL teams. Absolute stud.


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[Assistant] Of a individual, of a human being. An incredible athlete. Quarterback at the Naval Academy, by the way. Record holder at the Naval Academy. Just a hilarious guy. Leader of men. Just incredible human being. Named Alton Lee Grizzard. He got murdered. Along with a female naval officer named Carrie O'Neill.


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[Assistant] They got murdered, both of them, by another Navy officer who...


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[Assistant] Also went to the Naval Academy, who then killed himself. So, murder-suicide. And...


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[Assistant] I'll tell you what, anybody that knew Grizz, I mean this was just devastating. Devastating. Just damn near broke my heart.


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[Assistant] In December of 2012, another seal that I knew.


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[Assistant] Who was the commander of the SEALs in Afghanistan.


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[Assistant] The commander of all the SEALs in Afghanistan. On deployment in Afghanistan.


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[Assistant] Goes to a meeting. Gets down with a meeting. Goes to his room.


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[Assistant] Shoots himself in the head. Kills himself. No suicide note, no strange behavior, no indicators, nothing.


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[Assistant] And, like I said, this guy was in my sister platoon at SEAL Team 2. I mean, just a great guy. Respected SEAL. And boom. Gone.


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[Assistant] And I guess that's why I, I, I feel strongly about wanting to bring you on and, and talk to you about this cause I know you felt it. Personally, you're talking about it. And I personally, I actually have never wanted to kill myself before.


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[Assistant] Now, I will say, there are times in my life where I, where I cared less about living than other times. And it's certainly in combat, I...


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[Assistant] Definitely accepted that I could die and I was okay with it and there's probably times in combat where I crossed the line a little bit towards the just straight bring it on. Let's do this. But I never seriously had that, you know, that thought.


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[Assistant] But it's something I know is out there. Like I said, I've, it's brushed up against me, it's crushed me.


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[Assistant] And when you say in this book that you almost killed yourself, and we'll talk about what got you there and how you ended up there.


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[Assistant] And you say this, like, you're looking back at this now. And of course, this is so easy to see. I go, you know, I was...


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[Assistant] Not thinking straight. And right now you can tell it's not real.


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[Assistant] Or those problems that you perceived, you could tell that they weren't.


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[Assistant] You know, I got, I got, I get to see this a little bit right now.


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[Assistant] We can get you some more shoes or whatever. It's, you get to see a glimpse of what you're talking about just with any human, any human anywhere that even in a workplace where someone's going through some problem at work and they didn't get the report turned in on time and, and they're acting like it's the end of the world.


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[Assistant] You say to Silas, which is the guy that had come up and asked you to sign the book, you come up and say, you say, look, I'm sorry for your loss. And then you had.


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[Assistant] Sort of the internal talk once again with yourself and you say, I failed his brother by being such a coward in my writing.


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[Assistant] How many others had I failed? These questions swam in my mind. And then you look at Silas and you say, I will write about this. I promise. That's probably when you made your


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[Assistant] First decision to get this drafts going, actually you said, and with that I got into the elevator.


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[Assistant] Part of this is called Into the Darkness, and you've got a great quote in here that I'd never heard before.


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[Assistant] I think that's an awesome quote. They tried to bury us. They didn't know we were seeds. And I can tell you that I didn't bury


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[Assistant] These thoughts and these feelings, and I'm thinking back, I'm just trying to kind of deconstruct.


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[Assistant] Where, where my attitude came from with all the stuff, and I think that when I grew up, I listened to some things that may, that, that just pulled those seeds right out of the ground. Like they were plain as day. When you grow up, listen to the kind of music that I listen to, just dark, heavy music.


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[Assistant] That saying about this stuff. And I'll tell you there's a, uh, one of the best pieces of music that you can hear on this subject. And I don't even, it's dark.


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[Assistant] But, Henry Rollins, on an album called Lifetime, there's a song called Gun in Mouth Blues. And I saw him perform it many times live. And, it like took me through those emotions.


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[Assistant] You go on YouTube and try and it doesn't deliver the way it was when I was a kid, when I was 14 or 15 years old and I got a guy on stage, a grown man to me at that time who was, you know, 25 or something, whatever Rollins was at that time. And he's singing about that. And so for me, I'm thinking to myself, well, those seeds weren't buried for me. They were out, right? I was thinking about that, but I wasn't.


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[Assistant] Like I was okay with me, you know what I'm saying? And a lot of the music that I listened to back then


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[Assistant] Talked about that stuff, so I didn't bury those seeds ever, really.


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[Assistant] Is that something that you did? Obviously you put the quote in here.


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[Assistant] This idea of battling demons, right? One of the things I said on the podcast, one of the earlier podcasts is I just said,


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[Assistant] Don't let the demons ambush you. Don't let them sneak around in there. You gotta bring them out. You gotta bring them out and confront them and deal with them. Don't try and bury them. Bring them out. And so that's very similar.


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[Assistant] When you were a kid, this is also interesting because you were an overachiever as a kid, right?


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[Assistant] And is that one of the things you think that as you started thinking about this darkness, you're looking at these other people going, oh they don't have that, I gotta bury it, because they're all, they're all smart as me and great athletes and so,


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[Assistant] I'm competing with them and I don't want to have that chalk against me of saying, oh, you know, I'm a little bit sad today. That's bad. I'm going to be positive.


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[Assistant] But. But you would literally say, oh man, I'm feeling down right now, this is one of my particular things, it'll be okay. Definitely.


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[Assistant] So, you're right that we do start getting into this. Uhm, let's talk about this. But can I say one thing? Absolutely.


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[Assistant] So that's, that's a great point. Let's go into this then when we go into what happened and some of the things that went down.


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[Assistant] This downward spiral is what you call it. And again, in here, I'm going back to the book. In hindsight, it's incredible how trivial some of it seems.


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[Assistant] And, and I put my note in there, next to that, it's like, cause you're detached from it now. And that's such a key thing I talk about all the time. Right? We want to remain detached from things, we don't want to get wrapped up in the emotions, we want to stay back. Because when you detach from it, every answer is so clear.


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[Assistant] When you're not wrapped up in it. This is, this stuff that, that, that happened to you. Sure, was it challenging? Yes, did it suck? Was it hard? Yes, of course. But detached from it now, you're looking at it, you're, you, you might literally be laughing at this stuff now.


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[Assistant] That is the whole point, is that you don't, is that people, we don't detach, we get absorbed in this stuff and it becomes our world. So, you get...


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[Assistant] Here, I'm going back to the book. I include wording like impossible situation which was reflective of my thinking at the time.


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[Assistant] And it begins, senior year, slated to graduate in June of 1999, somewhere in the next six months. All these things happen. First, you fail to make it to the final interviews for McKenzie Consulting.


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[Assistant] And at some other company and you start losing confidence. So this is the first time you get kind of a little bit beat in your life a little bit.


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[Assistant] In a wrestling match, you go, hey, my conditioning wasn't good. Or hey, my takedowns weren't on point. In here, you're just going, what was wrong? I don't know what was wrong.


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[Assistant] I'm gonna go to the book here because you give some pretty good specifics on that.


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[Assistant] She breaks up with you because, this is from the book, because I became insecure during that period, wanted more time with her.


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[Assistant] And was massively disrupted to her varsity sports. But my point is that these things compounded, right? You get insecure and you think, why didn't they, why did they, why didn't they hire me? And then you look at your girl and you say, well, I'll go to her for comfort. Hey, but you know, I need more from you. And she's going, which all humans do, which is, oh, you're, you want to throw yourself at me? I don't need you.


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[Assistant] Yeah, I mean, so, the other thing that struck me as, once that happens, now you also start to see your friends?


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[Assistant] Yeah, that was, that was, seemed to be a huge piece of it as well. And then I'm gonna go to the book, back to the book here. Your, your,


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[Assistant] Coping mechanism is to cover myself in sheets, minimize time awake, and hope for a miracle. No miracle arrives.


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[Assistant] One afternoon, as I'm wandering through a Barnes and Noble with no goal in particular, I chance upon a book about suicide. It's right there in front of me on a display table. Perhaps this is the miracle.


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[Assistant] I sit down and read the entire book, taking copious notes into a journal, including other books listed in the bibliography.


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[Assistant] For the first time in ages, I'm excited about research.


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[Assistant] In a sea of uncertainty and hopeless situations, I feel like I've found hope. The final solution.


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[Assistant] I was in planning. You say that in the book and I'll just read it. It's important to mention that by this point I was past deciding.


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[Assistant] The decision was obvious to me. I'd somehow failed, painted myself into this ridiculous corner, wasted a fortune on school that didn't care about me. So what would be the point of doing otherwise? To repeat these types of mistakes forever?


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[Assistant] To be a hopeless burden to myself and my family and my friends, fuck that. The world was better off without a loser who couldn't figure out this basic shit. What would I ever contribute? Nothing.


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[Assistant] So the decision was made and I was in full on planning mode.


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[Assistant] In this case, I'm dangerously good at planning. I have four to six scenarios, all spaced out, start to finish.


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[Assistant] Or sorry, specked out, start to finish, including potential collaborators and covers when needed.


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[Assistant] So as you just said, as you just pointed out, you were full on Tim Ferriss, researched, complete, decision made, going forward, figure out the best way to execute this, and make it happen.


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[Assistant] Did she say like, hey Tim, are you okay? She did, she did, she did, and we love you.


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[Assistant] It's sort of, you, you get through that. You, you kinda get through what you just said. You realize that this wasn't just about you, this was gonna hurt everybody. You get through that, and then you say,


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[Assistant] The very next week I decide to take the rest of my year off truly off to hell with the thesis and focus on physical and mental health.


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[Assistant] That's how the entire sumo story of the 1999 Chinese kickboxing sansu championships came to be if you read the four hour work week. So you go on a full on year off just complete. Now my question for you on that.


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[Assistant] Right, normal people that can't take a full on year off, they gotta find another way to


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[Assistant] Get their focus off the what's going on in their brain at their work and get out of that carnival and focus on their mental and physical health while they're working their job, taking care of their kids, doing whatever it is they have to do for sure. How's a normal person pull that off?


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[Assistant] Go workout, go push yourself. And it's very similar to what I tell people. Like, hey man, you know, do jiu-jitsu, lift weights, sprint, surf, go get outside, get into your body. So I think that's universally, I universally agree with that statement.


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[Assistant] Uh, podcast that I did with you that somebody asked me about meditation and I was like, no, I don't meditate. I guess what I do do surf, jujitsu, weight lift, all this other stuff. So that kind of falls into again, I don't know. Cause I, you, you know, when you say, do you meditate? My answer is no, I don't meditate. You don't see me sitting in a corner with my legs crossed, Indian style chanting, right? I don't do that.


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[Assistant] Do I get those benefits that people talk about? Do I feel them when I'm on the jujitsu mat or when I'm Olympic weightlifting or when I'm doing whatever these physical activities that I do? I guess I do. I guess that's where it is.


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[Assistant] And I think my word that I go back to all the time is being able to detach. I already said it once today is, is being able to detach from these situations, detach from these, these stresses that are there and, and actually going back to the book here


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[Assistant] You see, I return to Princeton, turn in my now finished thesis to my still sour advisor, get chewed up in my thesis defense, and I don't give a fuck.


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[Assistant] And I think that is a very powerful tool. That is a very powerful tool. And it's got me through all kinds of things. And I'll tell you specifically, like, oh,


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[Assistant] Things are going bad at work. Fire me. Go ahead. You want to fire me? Do it. Bring it on. I'll find another job. I'll go do something else. You know, even the SEAL teams, you know, in my book I talked about this horrible situation that happened with, uh, fratricide.


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[Assistant] And that was the beginning of deployment. Well as things continued on deployment, more, it's not like the bad things stopped there, other bad things are gonna happen. And what I knew was that I was doing the best job I possibly could do. And if you guys above me in the chain of command want to come and fire me, bring it. And it wasn't that I actually didn't care.


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[Assistant] I kinda told myself I didn't care. And when you release yourself of that stress of caring...


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[Assistant] You can actually perform better. You perform better when you say, you know what, and we talk about with fighters all the time, fighters will be


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[Assistant] In an event and maybe they have a hard match and they barely get through and then they go, you know what, screw this, I don't even care if I win or lose. They go out there and have the performance of a lifetime because they relieve themselves of that stress. So sometimes not caring is one of the best antidotes for performing better.


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[Assistant] But it's very contradictory because you're saying, okay, I gotta perform really well, so what do I do? I'm not gonna care, but I wanna perform well. But you gotta, and I used to say this with guys...


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[Assistant] Would deal with girls, right? In the SEAL teams, you got guys, they're going through, you know, they're young guys, right? They're 20 years old, 22 years old. And so they get these relationship problems and sometimes you gotta help them through that.


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[Assistant] And one of the things I'd say, I'd say, listen, listen buddy, they would be sad because they, whatever. And I'd say, listen man, you gotta not care.


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[Assistant] And then I'd say, you can't just act like you don't care.


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[Assistant] You have to actually not care. That's what you actually have to. You have to actually not care. And if you do that, you're good.


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[Assistant] And you can walk away. Somebody asked me that the other day on Twitter. How do you get over, uh, how do you get over someone that you love that doesn't want you anymore? And I was like, wish them luck. Walk away. Don't look back.


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[Assistant] Don't look back, you've gotta not care. And I think when you said, when you wrote that in the book right there, I think it's a powerful thing.


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[Assistant] Also, it sounds like you're not going to pick goals that are counterproductive. I mean, you can run a good company and still increase your deadlift and work on your breath hold. Absolutely. They're all complimentary.


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[Assistant] I'm gonna take that one step further. You wanna know what it actually does? Well, in my mind what it actually does when I'm writing something, cause I now write for my own podcast, right?


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[Assistant] Detaching, physically pulling those things, those ideas out of your brain, putting them on a paper and now you're detached from them and you can make a good decision.


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[Assistant] You wanna know what I do? It's kinda similar to that, but it's a little bit different.


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[Assistant] When I interact with some, let's say, I'm not a coffee drinker, but let's say I'm in a restaurant, but, you know, a 7-Eleven. Right? A 7-Eleven. I'm going in there, I gotta pick up whatever bottle of water.


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[Assistant] I treat that person like a human being. I say, hey, how's it going? Yeah, just this bottle of water. Thursday's hot out there, isn't it? Hey, I hope you have a good day. I just do that.


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[Assistant] And I think that just dehumanizes you as an individual. So somebody that's cleaning toilets and is coming out of the thing with a, with a bag of garbage and whatever. Hey man, how's it going? Everything cool? You know? Hey, thanks! Stop something like that.


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[Assistant] I think those are uh, important. And I definitely, the way you put it in the book is, if you can't seem to make yourself happy, do little things to make other people happy.


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[Assistant] Very effective, magic trick. Focus on others instead of yourself. Totally agree with that one.


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[Assistant] Go into the gym. The other ones you put in here is go into the gym. Move for at least 30 minutes. I tell this, this is like the solution to everything, right? Yeah. Oh, you got problems in your life? Cool, go to the gym.


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[Assistant] Cool, go get a workout on the next ne- let's- let's at least start there. I think those are- those are-


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[Assistant] No, you actually, you got a great list in here of, uh, practical gremlin defenses, what you call it.


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[Assistant] Productivity tricks, you got, how do you face things that you're afraid of, you got the jar of awesome, you got gymnastics.


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[Assistant] You got Acro Yoga, but I'm not gonna talk about that one. But my point is you got a bunch of these things written about in the book, which I think is, is, is very helpful to people. Hey, I gotta put this out there too, just because people are listening to this. If you're in that zone,


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[Assistant] We definitely all cared more about our friends, our brothers in the SEAL teams than we did about ourselves without question. So that would be a, uh, a powerful thing there as well.


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[Assistant] I'm gonna, I'm gonna take it to your little section here where you wrap this, this section up with a book. Back to the book. My perfect storm was nothing permanent.


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[Assistant] But of course, it's far from the last storm I'll face. There will be many more.


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[Assistant] The key is building fires where you can. Warm yourself up as you wait for the tempest to pass.


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[Assistant] These fires, the routines, habits, relationships, and coping mechanisms you build help you to look at the rain and see fertilizer instead of a flood.


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[Assistant] If you want the luscious green of life, and you do!


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[Assistant] Gifts to share with the world, and when the darkness comes.


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[Assistant] When you are fighting the demons, just remember.


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[Assistant] There is a large tribe around you and thousands of them are reading this book right now.


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[Assistant] It would appear that once again the podcast went into the darkness a little bit and I think that's okay.


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[Assistant] And again, I think that having you on here, Tim, someone that


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[Assistant] Certainly like you just talked about comes across as outwardly happy and successful and loving life and having you talk about these things and having you put them in the book is, is it real service to people?


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[Assistant] And I think the other thing is that people that aren't maybe necessarily in that boat, it's important that they learn too. So that you can recognize, look for signs, understand some solutions that you can give to people.


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[Assistant] And also remember that the darkness that seems all-consuming, we've seen it time and time again. We've seen it. And it's not. It's not. It is not stronger than the forces of good.


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[Assistant] The darkness will subside and the light will win.


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[Assistant] And there is renewal and rebirth and there is joy and there is this thing.


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[Assistant] This amazing thing, this crazy thing, this beautiful thing.


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[Assistant] This horrifying thing, this magnificent thing.


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[Assistant] I just wanted to make sure that I covered the subject. I don't think that most people are going to pick up the book and say, Oh, I'll cover the suicide section. No, they leave that for me. That's what that's, that's my job here. Uh, but the book.


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[Assistant] It's, it, what it really is, is a compilation of all the lessons that you've learned talking to all the people that you've talked to on the podcast.


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[Assistant] Which is a wide range of different people. And you've taken that and distilled it down. For those of you people that, uh, go and listen to Tim Ferriss podcasts and you go, man, I can't get this to, I can still, it's two hours.


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[Assistant] Two and a half hours, who has two and a half hours? Now you can get it done in 15 minutes, you can get it the distilled version, the peak knowledge there.


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[Assistant] And that, that's what the book is. All this information kinda distilled down into nice little digestible pieces, like a reference book that you can look at. Which actually, now we're going into question zone, by the way, hot seat, Tim Ferriss, get some, roles reversed. Uh, first question. Can I say something first?


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[Assistant] It's just shifting into a higher gear. That's a great point. And I use a lot of those strategies, work out every day, wake up early, get after it. Of course I read a lot, write a lot.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] This is a good piece of the toolkit right here. Speaking of toolkit, tools of titans.


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[Assistant] Speaking of the book, this ties into it. The book is filled with all kinds of good ideas and enticing options and they all sound really good. How do you take and pick the right path and not get distracted by all these other shiny objects that are out there?


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[Assistant] You realize that you, you don't like doing that thing and all of a sudden you go look for the next solution and you end up jumping from solution to solution and you never get


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[Assistant] And so those, when now we're trying to narrow all this information, do you pick one? Do you set a certain amount of time? Like, okay, I'm gonna stick with this program here. Candle bell swings at night, right? I'm gonna do 75 candle bell swings at night.


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[Assistant] Yeah, that's really what you talked about earlier is for me is prioritize next year to talk about in the book, extreme ownership is, you know, what's the biggest impact you're going to have? Make that thing, take that thing to the top of the list and start working on that one. Boom, done. Yeah, totally.


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[Assistant] Alright, next question. Alright, there was a friend of mine that was older than me and he was always looking for the right girl.


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[Assistant] And the right girl to settle down with and to marry and have kids and all that stuff.


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[Assistant] And it never seemed to happen, and the reason it never seemed to happen is because he was always looking for perfection. Always looking for perfection. And, I told him that, you know,


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[Assistant] Profession doesn't exist. And I also had another buddy of mine that was, we were like surfing and he was always looking for like the next good time. Always looking for


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[Assistant] He's looking for happiness, right? And one time we're surfing and I go, bro, you keep looking around for happiness.


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[Assistant] This is it. This is it, man. We're surfing. This is happiness. Right now.


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[Assistant] Ever feel like you're searching too much and looking for something


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[Assistant] Was there something that you said 10 years ago, if I would ask you this, you would have probably been on your heels a little bit. Is there something that happened where you said, you know what, what did I just, you know, did you get home from a trip one time and say, what did I just do or what?


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[Assistant] Good lesson. Alright, and this is, this is almost down the same line of thinking, so I, we, we, I kinda see you as the king of outsourcing, right? Uhm, but for me, my whole life,


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[Assistant] I was doing a job that I absolutely loved, a job that I wouldn't outsource to anybody.


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[Assistant] And I feel like I was really lucky and even, even right now, I'm doing this podcast, you know what? I love doing this podcast.


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[Assistant] And people have sent me, hey, we can help you, you know, set up for it and help you. I would read books for you and give you notes. I'm like, no, I don't want you to help me read books and give me notes. I'm doing that. That's what I'm doing. So is there a job that


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[Assistant] Would satisfy you that you said, or what, let me ask you this. What jobs do you do that you, like, I own this thing and I'm not gonna let anybody else do it? The podcast, for instance.


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[Assistant] Good. Yeah, the podcast, we were talking about this earlier. The great thing about the podcast is, is that you can do whatever you want.


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[Assistant] Oh yeaah. It can be 3 minutes long, it can be 3 hours, it can be 30 hours long, you can talk about whatever you want, no one's gonna, eh, just do what you want, and that's uh, and if you've written a book,


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[Assistant] The amount of other people that start to weigh in on that thing, it's, it can be a little bit, it's not oppressive, but it's just not as nice as, hey I'm gonna turn this on and do whatever I want, which is a good feeling.


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[Assistant] Alright, and speaking of doing whatever you want. And I know that's kinda how you set your life up, which is awesome.


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[Assistant] But to take that, that notion to the extreme, if you got


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[Assistant] Diagnosed with a horrible disease and I try to think of a better way to ask you this question, which isn't like majorly depressing because this is, but if you got diagnosed with a disease that was going to kill you in a year or 18 months, what would you do with those months?


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[Assistant] When I'm listening to certain podcasts, sometimes I want to just live tweet, like when I'm having thoughts about them, and I do it with Rogan sometimes, I go, man, I should just be live tweeting this, because sometimes when he had, who do you have on, oh, when he had Sam Harris on, I was just, there were so many things that they were saying that were just hilarious to me, and I wanted to live tweet, but when you had Shay Carl on,


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[Assistant] It's the little things, it's the little things. That was another one I wanted to live through because he was saying some really classic lines in there as well. Alright, normal day to day, okay? No imminent death that I just placed, but you're healed, my son. Thank you. No disease.


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[Assistant] I've only had a couple things that have made me feel that way. That thing, right? Number one is combat. That's, that's as good as it gets.


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[Assistant] For me, jujitsu is the next thing down. It's this empty brain and just awesomeness and surfing is up there too. Maybe jamming with my band, getting it on in that way.


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[Assistant] How come you're jumping around so much and is there anything that you always go back to?


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[Assistant] Which by the way makes him one of the best grapplers in the history of


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[Assistant] Similar question. Next one down the, down the list here. Now, I was with a friend of mine the other day and we were doing some work on his car. Just like body work, right? You're sanding and then you're polishing and then you're sanding again, you're polishing and you're painting, priming, all this stuff. And there's a certain level of detachment and sort of, uh,


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[Assistant] For lack of a better word, like a zen mindset where you're doing this thing, but you're not doing it, right? It's the same thing with cleaning guns, you know, you're cleaning guns, you're just there, it's just a very calming thing, you know, sometimes when I just need to relax, I'll just clean my weapons.


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[Assistant] I surf, but I don't swim, like I swim enough, my whole life's been swimming, and I don't swim, like, uhm, on purpose. So, and the reason somebody said why, and I said boredom, right? Maybe I need to revisit that, because that boredom is...


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[Assistant] I think that this is a problem for me, right? In the military, starting really early in the military, you eat for time, you eat to get fuel in your system, and I'm really not a good relaxed, let's take some time, prepare the meal, sit around and eat it.


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[Assistant] Sit and relax and eat. I'm always in the game like trying to get that food down so I can go and get after it some more.


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[Assistant] That's another thing that the military kinda screwed up for me. It's because shooting in the military on the best ranges in the world with unlimited ammunition and all, that's what you, it's your job. And so you get in this mode where you're just loving it and, and then you get in the civilian world and, you know, you go to the range and


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[Assistant] The ammunition costs money, right? You're all angry about that. And then they say, Oh, you can't shoot steel in this range. And what about moving targets? What about, you know, I want things and you just get used to it. So you get spoiled in the military a little bit. And there's some great civilian ranges out there as well that offer the same thing that I'm.


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[Assistant] Love to utilize. It's awesome. Uh, good. Alright. I like that.


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[Assistant] When I retired from the Navy and got out and started the consulting business, working in one of my risk averse friends.


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[Assistant] That was staying in the military for its...


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[Assistant] It's welfare program, right? It's a, it's a paycheck, right? And he, the guy wasn't, you know, he wasn't all fired up anymore, but he was in and so he had a mortgage to pay and kids to feed. So he's just staying in and he kind of looked at me when I was getting out and I said, yeah, man, I got bills to pay too, but I'm going to go and get after it somehow. And he said, what are you going to do if it,


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[Assistant] You know, if the business doesn't work and you end up, you know, you're going to come back in and what are you going to do? You won't be able to get back in blah, blah, blah. And I said, bro, worst case scenario.


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[Assistant] Everything goes to hell. Guess what I'm gonna be doing? I have an RV. I will be in my RV with my family. We'll be driving up and down the coast of California.


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[Assistant] Raiding jujitsu schools and training. And I'll be surfing. And it's all good. And it won't cost me barely anything to do that. My retirement cover will be good to go. You got a backup plan like that?


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[Assistant] Let me rephrase that. If you needed a backup plan like that, what would it be?


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[Assistant] And you had that attitude when you were taking more legitimate risks. I mean right now, obviously, you're pretty good to go.


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[Assistant] And, but, but in the beginning, when you moved out to the west coast, you had to have the similar attitude of, cause I know I did, that, that, that attitude for me freed me. Like, oh, worst case scenario, I lose everything, cool, I still have my RV, it's paid for.


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[Assistant] That was a good misconception. You piled on. I'll have to, I'll now spend another five years trying to debunk that and prove to people that I'm not a drill instructor with a lash. But it's good. Thank you. Appreciate it.


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[Assistant] Doesn't mean that you're doing good. Right? And there's a bunch of little sayings about that. But just because you're working hard and getting up early and you think you're getting after it, you might be moving a lot but you're not making any progress. And there's a big difference there and I think that's something that people need to watch out for as well.


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[Assistant] Alright, uh, we're getting, we got one more question here.


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[Assistant] You as a leader, right? There's actually millions of people that follow you, right?


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[Assistant] And they, they truly follow your lead. I mean, clearly, they follow your lead. We saw this with, uh,


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[Assistant] With the, the launch of, or the release, what's it called when a book comes out? When my book comes out. Yeah. You had kind of predicted everything that was going to happen to a T of like, yeah, when we talk about this book, it's going to, you know, people going by that's good. And so people clearly follow you and, and listen to what you say.


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[Assistant] As a leader. And I don't know if you foresee yourself that way, but you are a leader.


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[Assistant] Two questions. One, where do you think you fall short? And two,


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[Assistant] Yeah, that's, that's solid. I mean, that's obviously a really positive thing. I always talk about the fact that, you know, I want to help people learn how to learn.


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[Assistant] I talk about that all the time, and I've said that before on the podcast. We'll teach people how to, not what to think, but how to think. And obviously I'm not...


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[Assistant] Following me in some way, that might be a strong word, but I always think that what I'm trying to get people to do, if you're following me, I'm really trying to get you to follow yourself.


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[Assistant] And lead yourself. I don't, I don't, you know, lead yourself. Okay, you see my path?


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[Assistant] That's cool. My path was good. I like my path.


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[Assistant] Now, forge your path. You know, figure out where you wanna go, how you're gonna get stronger, how you're gonna get faster, how you're gonna get smarter, how you're gonna get


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[Assistant] How you gonna get better? And I always think that those answers...


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[Assistant] Yeah, and I just talked about stoicism on my last podcast because somebody hit me up on Twitter and says, do you practice stoicism? And I was like, no. I just said no because I'm pretty terse on Twitter.


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[Assistant] And, and the guy kinda wrote back, I don't want to say he was offended, and I don't want to rehash the whole story because I just talked about it in my last podcast, but,


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[Assistant] He said, hey, what's wrong with stoicism? And I wrote back, I'm like, man, there's nothing wrong with stoicism. I get it.


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[Assistant] But for me to say that I practiced it or even that I learned it from studying the agents is not true. I didn't go to Princeton. You know, I didn't study. When I was in high school, I wasn't an overachiever. I was an underachiever. I was a, I was a troublemaker.


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[Assistant] So I didn't learn anything about stoicism.


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[Assistant] Until much later in my life. My roots aren't, my beliefs aren't founded on what I read, they're founded on what I lived. And it's just...


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[Assistant] Experience the things that I experienced in my life, and I came to the same conclusions that these-


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[Assistant] If you want me to do Musashi on this podcast, I'm not gonna do it. Not gonna do Musashi and I'll tell you why.


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[Assistant] And if you've read it, you know. You can't. You gotta go through Musashi to get to the end.


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[Assistant] I gotta go through the whole thing to get to the end. It is one of the best rewards in all of literature. To get to the end. And the end, this is a, what's it, how many pages is Musashi? It's 900 something pages. It's a massive book. And it's, and you have to read the whole thing. And it's all good.


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[Assistant] All the payoff is so good. And the, oh, and I'm not gonna do it on here because obviously I'd have to give away the payoff. And so I'm not gonna do that. And you have to go and read Musashi. It's, it's awesome. And the ending.


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[Assistant] Is just as good as it gets. It's, it's as good as it gets. And it's historical fiction, but that happened. Oh yeaah. That's documented. Oh yeaah. And it doesn't get any better. So, read Musashi for yourself, people. Maybe I'll give us like a one year lead time.


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[Assistant] And then I'll do it. One year. Episode 100, maybe we'll do, give people enough heads up. Episode 100, we'll go back and do Musashi if, and I'll give a spoiler alert at the beginning. Cause Musashi's good when you get to the end, you go, god yeaah. Is that kinda like the Matrix?


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[Assistant] I think I've heard about that one. Then you're jumping into what, like 30 hours of content?


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[Assistant] Alright, Echo. Yes? Uhm, anyone wants to support this podcast? How should they do it?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That is right, that is, uh, I am in Tools of Titans, which is awesome. And I appreciate you, uh, you throwing me in there. Of course. And, uhm, and just a ton of, ton of other great information. Uhm, I also got some mugs coming.


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[Assistant] You can buy mugs. Those are good mugs. They say, they, I try to keep it simple. You know what they say on it? They say get after it, because that's pretty much their answer to everything, right?


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[Assistant] Subscribe to the podcast. Subscribe to Tim Ferriss' podcast. If you don't already, you probably do. Most people do.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And the YouTube channel, which Echo has now begun.


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[Assistant] To engage in, which is appreciated by all of us. Me over here, I'm appreciating it. So thank you for doing that. There's more videos coming out. Excerpts.


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[Assistant] That's it. Also we did the extreme ownership muster in San Diego, California. It was awesome.


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[Assistant] If you want to come and you're on the East Coast, you want to come May 4th and 5th, 2017, extreme ownership muster number two in New York City. Marriott Grand Marquis. It's going to be awesome. And I'm going to tell you, I haven't said it yet on the podcast because I wanted to give people the opportunity


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Are already in the game and are tracking to get there, but it's going to sell out. It's selling really quickly. So if you want to come by now.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Extreme Ownership Monster, you'll probably come to this one.


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[Assistant] And if you wanna continue this conversation, by the way, you can find all three of us out there on the interwebs. You can find us on Twitter.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I am at Jocko Willink and of course, Tim Ferriss is T-Ferriss.


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[Assistant] Two R's and two S's on Twitter. Tim Ferriss on Instagram. And of course he's also on the Facebook. He's not hard to find. And to everybody.


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[Assistant] That's listening. I want to say thanks to Tim. Thanks Tim for coming on. Thanks to Tim for actually getting me to do a podcast. It was you and Joe Rogan. You, as soon as you pressed record on our first one, you press, you press stop. You looked at me and said, you need to do your own podcast. And I was pretty


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, packed for time right then, cause the book was coming out. But as soon as Joe Rogan said it, have you two tell me that? I was in. So thank you for making me do this podcast. Thanks for coming on.


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[Assistant] Appreciate all the support that you've been giving me and Echo and the podcast and the book and everything else. Thank you. It's much appreciated. To everybody else that's listening.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Thanks to you for listening. First and foremost to the


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] People out there in uniform, military, police, firefighters, paramedics. By the nature of your very job, you are serving.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] All of us. So thank you for that service and thank you for the freedom and security that you provide us. And rest the people out there. The troopers out there that have your own battles around the world.


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[Assistant] Fighting against apathy. Fighting against mediocrity. And...


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[Assistant] Remember that anything worth anything is worth fighting for. Remember that the battle doesn't fight itself. You are the one that has to fight it.


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[Assistant] Remember that there's a price for victory.


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[Assistant] And that price is hard work and early mornings and late nights and that price is unmitigated daily discipline in all things.


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[Assistant] In those times when you can't remember everything I just said.


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[Assistant] Best way to submit questions, just cause people have been asking me. Okay. Twitter, right? Or...


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[Assistant] Yeah. Facebook, Twitter. Every once in a while, people will submit them through the store. Mhm. And...


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[Assistant] Yeah, it's good, but you kinda do run the risk of.


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[Assistant] They're being stored issues that's, that are pressing. And then I'm like, okay, let me get back to this question, whether it be to forward it or whatever. And so you run the risk of it maybe getting shuffled to the bottom or something.


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[Assistant] Hey, look at me, I was such a, I was such a badass in all these stories and, you know.


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[Assistant] Because I think that like what you and Leif have and even this podcast and stuff, sure there's like references to war, but it's not about like, ooh let me spin all the cool tales that the war that I went through and stuff like that. It's more about like the actual principles of leadership and what can be effective, you know?


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[Assistant] Even though I know the general public would probably want to hear every last cool story on how you saved this person or, you know, killed all these bad guys or whatever, you know, everyone would want to hear that. But that's not what it's about. That's not like what you're going public with, you know?


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[Assistant] Like, seeking glory in any way.


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[Assistant] Is, is that, is it just in your, I mean do you get like scrutiny from people at all? For quote unquote selling out? Or is it, or do you think, yeaah.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Right, that's what I would think, and it is, because the whole dynamic, I mean, yeaah, I mean, you gotta be like JockoPodcast, it's called JockoPodcast, it's about, I mean, you kinda have to do that. Yep, I mean, there's a small element of that that you have to include about yourself.


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[Assistant] So it makes it worth it, I mean, I dig it though, like tradition, let's just say, if there was like, a person who's like, hey, you know, like, hey, I dig what you're doing, but you shouldn't do that. That's the code, that's the tradition, that's the code you sold out. I would understand that, but I think that's just like, you're not looking at the big picture.


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[Assistant] Let's say you were to, not rewind life, but your, take the joku from before.


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[Assistant] Is there, you know how like some, you know, people who change their attitude on things all the time sometimes get frowned upon. This is just in general for being like a flip-flopper. You see it in like politics and stuff. But isn't that kind of good if your, if your ideas about things always are updated?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, well, yeah, it kinda depends on why they're changing their mind. That's true too. So if it's like with the introduction of new facts and stuff like that, then they're like, okay, I didn't know all that. Now, you know, it paints a broader, you know, more accurate picture. So now I feel this way or starting to feel this way about it.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And the tendency is to be like, is to dig deeper into your current belief.


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[Assistant] Yeah, my friend was in from out of town this past weekend. We watched the fights and the guys were in this specific position.


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[Assistant] You know, standing kind of from the back there and he, and he asked, uhm, he's like, hey, couldn't he just like throw knees and give him like the meanest Charlie horse right there? And then we're like, you know, it's not, we don't say it's not condescending or anything, but if you don't know, you don't know. Yeah. It's like, so we said,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] No, I mean, yeaah, you could, but that wouldn't do anything. I mean, I don't think you even feel that, you know. No, not during a fight, not during a UFC fight. How I put it was, I said, Charlie horses are for when you're cruising and you see your friend, you're like, oh, give my friend a Charlie horse and you do it and it like hurts him. He's like, oh, you know, but no, when you're in fighting, like, yeaah, you don't really feel a Charlie horse.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, my example was a leg kick. So a leg kick is essentially...


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[Assistant] If you don't know, you don't know. You think that's how it is and then get updated information.


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[Assistant] Oh my gosh, you couldn't even catch the balls right in his hands. Okay, so Trey, you're a football now. Of course they're trained to understand, but you know, that's kind of part of the point, you know, them being trained made it look like it's so easy. You've seen it done all that all those times.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] No man, and that's not to mention just all the like input they like just firing it, you know, you know, like on movies the guy will be like one hand, you know, whatever boom boom boom boom.


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[Assistant] Got this. You know, you ever seen those videos online? I mean, I don't know how much time you spend watching videos online, but they're more just for entertainment, but of people like shooting big guns at it. Oh, and it hits them in the face and stuff. Those are good.


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[Assistant] I had a few questions relating to my family life for guys who joined the SEALs. My boyfriend is interested in taking the pass. Is this coming from the girl? Oh, okay.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Jocko, you have mentioned being married while a seal. Was it hard on you and your wife and family? Advice for a newlywed. SOF Candidate.


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[Assistant] It's like you gotta remember that.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeaah. But man, it helps. It helps a lot. Have you been doing that lately? Implement- I like how JP put it. You know, we just put each other first. It's real like, dang, that kinda-


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I don't like using that word, but it resonated, you know, where don't you like using that word? I don't know. You know, those words, you know, certain words just sound dumb coming out of your mouth. Is that one of them? In my opinion, it comes sounds out of anyone. No, I don't.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I do, I had the same thing. Cause that's how me and my brother, we just, that's it. The whole thing is like, see who can make the funniest joke about the other guy, you know?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And then, so Sarah was like our friend before we got together. So she kind of, and she would, she didn't like that even from the beginning. But once you're kind of like in the relationship, she kind of got a lot and she constantly, constantly.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That's right, you should be happy, right? No, no, no, that's a different person you're talking about, you know? Anyway, next question.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] What's the best ratio of drooling to sparring? And question two is, what do you do if you roll with someone new to jiu-jitsu and they're over-aggressive like the beast took over?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And they wanna hurt people. I don't think they really do, but the adrenaline rush takes experience to manage. Uhm, what's a good, what's a good approach on, you know, on the mat to let them know that they're being reckless and wasting energy without sounding like a douche.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, that's a good point. That's a good thing to think about all day, every day about everything. Especially, you know, people who are, who are like, Hey, man, I need a job. And that's, you know, that's nothing. This is nothing new words. I dang, I need a job, you know, dang, there's no jobs out here or whatever. And that's kind of an example of that, you know, where.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Don't look at it like a job needs to be presented to you, you know? You have to kinda- You need to maneuver. Yeah, yeah, change yourself so, you know, you can do the work that people need.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeaah. The guy, uhm, who were drilling and sparring. You were kinda trying to move me a lot yesterday.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The, the drilling, uhm, in my experience, if you ask different people...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Isn't that kinda wet and not black? It's actually really good. How that worked, cause if you remember,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Not in this depth. There's a small list of things that I'm working on with you. It's like a small thing. Like, where? If I can remember to do this, you know?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You're the kind where, like, to defend a certain thing, you gotta focus really hard in defending it. But the drawback to that is, when you start, like, really focusing on defending it, all it takes is one little, yeaah. So, there's like a few things that it's like, dang, I gotta, it's like a balancing act, you know? I don't wanna forget here, I don't wanna forget here, you know? So it's like that. And...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] A lot of times, and it's, it's by my own evaluation, it's not based on like ex, it's in my own head, like okay, like I feel good about this coming along, you know.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, it's like, it's like, it's like this cycle, you know. Oh, that was fun. But yeah, it was good though, we're all thinking that. The, the drilling, uhm.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Because I mean like surfing, you know, like, okay, when you drill a move, it's like, hey, hey, do the arm bar, you know, do the whole transition to the arm bar. And then, you know, just drill that when you first learn the arm bar, it's going to have more value because you have to just know the fundamental movements of the arm bar. And just like how you said, like it's going to be different when you.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Do it live, yeaah. So, once you kind of get the fundamental movement of the arm bar, your legs gotta be here, they gotta do this certain thing, your arms position, all that stuff, once you kind of get that down, it's like, then you step into the value being, now you gotta know when to do it, how to do it, you know.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] When there's, it's just, that's basically drilling. Oh yeaah, you're drilling, standing up and paddling. Then you gotta go out to the actual waves, and man the waves, that's, you know, it's different. It's a little different. It's just way different.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, and the guy getting nuts, rolling, the spaz, is the name for that guy by the way, it's a spaz. Yeah, white belt warrior. Yeah sure, there's that. I think that's overall just kind of part of the game.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] There's so many different ways to like deal, I mean, as a higher belt, I mean, you, you kinda, I mean, I don't think you have the curse of knowledge, but you're, you've been a high belt for a long time, so.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, yeah, so when you get a guy who's like, when you first start, like my memories of first starting and going with big, big strong guys who are getting nuts, it's, it is hard to deal with man, straight up, like, and if you're smaller, it's even, you know, it's even harder.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeaah, yeaah, you start to see the holes. Yeaah. Yeaah, but those, yeaah, if you're...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And I'm just completely speaking just from experience and thinking of it right now, but...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] There are little things that you'll see come forward, like little tactics you can use to someone who's just bigger, stronger, and spazzing. Little tactics you can- and not to say that you'll-


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Like yourself, I tend to have low opinions slash expectations of people. My question is, how do you act friendly with someone when you know they're trying to play passive aggressive power games with you?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Say you know a person and you know he's a snake, but social and work situations demands and expects that you act like their friend. How do you reconcile that within your mind? Is that, or is that not being fake?