[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Of that war. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Everything had been, we were talking about


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[Assistant] That aspect, I completely dropped the ball on that early in my career as well. Later on, I got a little bit better at it, but you know, cause I did 30.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I didn't want to have that uncomfortable conversation with them to like, bro, you gotta, you gotta kind of fix this. Like, Hey.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, and that aspect, it just, most times it blows up in your face, and then sometimes you're just like, hey, I, I realize that maybe I'm gonna lose my friendship with you. True. But, uh,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I was. I was like, probably pretty predisposed to it all and it just ma- it just turned it up to 11. Right? And, uh, and then I would see myself and other guys and I would tell them, hey man, here's the deal. Here's the Sykes number. I want you just to give them a call.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And you don't have to see him after that, but do me this favor.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Some guys it would help, and other guys, I made the effort.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And they'll come to that conclusion at some point, but it's like, so, you know, we got to look out, look out for each other and do the best we can. And that was something that I, you know, missed out on.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I think I probably would have made an awesome platoon chief about the time I was an ops master chief. Two echelons above it and really realized what that job was because as a platoon chief, one of the things that I missed out on was, uh,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] They, and they'll follow my example and think that this is acceptable behavior. Uh, if I'm gonna


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[Assistant] You're managing what hills are worth dying on. For sure. When you go to your boss so that you've built up that equity with them.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That when you need it, you can cash it in and that's why you have to establish those relationships with them and that's what I really failed as, as a young leader


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And then my little ego was in the way. And, uh, uhm,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, that introspection is something that I didn't figure out till way later.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But uhm, sure glad I'm dead cause I think it paid off.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And in, in that manner, when people see those modeled behaviors,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And then they'll have kind of a guy come in that's a tyrant and.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] An egomaniac and that will permeate into everybody.


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[Assistant] He lifts everybody else. Everyone that's around him becomes better by his example.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So when is the moment do you think for you that you're, the collective light bulb went off and you kind of put a lot of this together?


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[Assistant] At the muster, JP was saying some stuff that really stuck with me and he said it out at the PT and he's like, hey everybody, we get to be here.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] This is an opportunity that you have to be here, and he said that


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And I thought, man, that is just an awesome perspective to have. I called him up yesterday. I'm like, hey, I want to talk about this. And.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So if you take that and you start applying that to everything, heck yeaah. They just don't have, there's no room to bitch.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You know, I moved through the airport today and I see a guy with no legs. And I'm like, man, my life is so good, both my legs work.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And, and I shouldn't, I shouldn't have a complaint in the world.


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[Assistant] This will forge a resilience that will help you conquer all of life's obstacles.


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[Assistant] In my mind, there is nothing you can't do. No job or goal beyond your reach.


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[Assistant] I will challenge you so that you stand confidently on your own two feet.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] What? 10? 10pm the night before? So you're on 5 hours of sleep right now? Yeaah.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Questions from the interwebs. Yes indeed. As it is said. Okay, first question. Jocko. I'm taking over leadership of a team of six people. Two I know and four I don't.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] When you've taken over leadership, did you one, give a group talk? Two, meet with each individual? And three, what did you say?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But a previous entry reads, I don't want you to overcome fear of failure. I want you to be afraid of failure. Mind elaborating.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, so consider that, that notion, right? So you say, yeah, I want you to be afraid of failure. Oh yeah, be afraid of failure, but you still gotta step, you still gotta go, you still gotta be brave, you know, kind of thing.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So, they do actually kinda compliment each other, really. Uhm, unless you think like, oh yeaah, overcome fear, meaning like, I'm not scared of it anymore, it's literally not fear, it's always fear, but it's more, it's less about the fear being, you know,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I was wondering when does standing up for the right thing take precedence over avoiding conflict?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeaah, so almost like, well actually straight up, where doing the right thing,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And avoiding conflict is kinda like, they're not that, like, opposite, you know? Where, doing their, avoiding, you should, and I'm totally just interpreting this, trying to anyway. Avoiding conflict, you should always be essentially trying to avoid conflict. As far as, maybe not always, but.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Of course not always, but I meant more like even if I'm gonna confront someone or something about like something that's wrong, I still should be while I do that.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, that was like the best sort of way to do it. Yeah man, and again, you, uhm, you're always thinking of like the long game versus the short game, you know? Where it's like, man, if you can keep that in perspective, these things become a little bit more clear, you know?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, you know how like nowadays, well I hear it a lot nowadays where if you add value, you just want to add value. So that's essentially what you're doing. If you're not in a leadership situation, it's like boom, I'm gonna add value. So one, okay, I'm gonna start with my own role, you know? That's where I'm gonna add the most value, my own role. But if there's little voids in whatever capacity that needs


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Take responsibility of the solution, like if I'm, okay, here.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But, if the quarterback's gonna take extreme ownership, he's gonna be like, hey, this happened, you know. Next time, I'm gonna remind him, hey, on this play, that play, you know, this red 46, curve, twist, whatever.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I think I know what it is. What, what, what makes it confusing or sometimes kinda, kinda slippery, like to grasp, you know?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Because it depends on who you ask. So a lot of times, the thing is when it's the machine gunner's fault, the thing is, if I'm not even a human being, I'm just a disembodied brain,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Okay. It's the machine gunner's fault. And the leader's fault. And it's everyone's fault.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Sniper or something. If I say, hey, this machine gunner shot in the wrong direction. Individual meetings, they all take extreme ownership. All of them are down. They're in the game. All of them. I ask you, machine gunner, whose fault is that? What's he gonna say?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Okay, next guy. Who's fault is it? Fire team leader. My fault, I should have told him. Squad leader, my fault.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So first Lumberg comes, his boss, first Lumberg comes, he's like, yeaah, you know, saying, hey, let me re- he didn't do it in a dick way, annoying for sure, but he said, hey,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Do that, that'd be cool. And he's like, cool, no problem, I'll even give you another copy of that memo. He almost like overdid it.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So I'm not even mad at Lumberg for that. I'm just saying. Next question. Hi, Jocko. I have a question for you. I know you're a very busy guy. How do you find time to read so many books?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I have many that I want to read, but I have trouble having enough time. Any advice on how to set aside time to do so?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I would say eat, yea eat would be a better one.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Cause like, yea, eat I think. Because read, you can read while you're doing other things sometimes. Especially with audio books.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, what do you think is the, like the biggest ones that people are, uh, you know, that you know, the biggest activities that they could just stop.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I don't want to make that funny because those are actual titles. Yea, those are actual titles. So basically, right when you log on to YouTube, once YouTube pops up on your screen, bro, everyone on that screen is all sucking your attention. Literally, that's their job, sucking your attention. So yea man, that's a big one. Right, Instagram, so here's one that really hit me really hard. The gram. The gram. And I like Instagram. It's like, good. But, if you're like trying to read,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You know, open it, but the probability of us opening Instagram is pretty significant. It's pretty high.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And you're gonna scroll through there or whatever. Even if you scroll for two, three minutes, right? You scroll through there. Maybe what, you looked at, uh, I dunno, fifteen, twenty people's posts. Read what they had to say.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeaah. So it's like, yeaah, those are the time sucks, man. Your phone, it's so available, you know? Yeaah. But bro, you can read on your phone too. Mhm. That's a big one. TV too.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I don't know, 13 episodes I guess? I don't know, I don't, I have, no, no, no. But, nonetheless, that's all.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, your discipline, like when you, when you first started saying discipline, oh when I first started hearing it from you, that was like one of the things that popped into my head like as being really obvious. Like if you are disciplined with your time,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Alright, next question. Would your extreme ownership philosophy have changed or lost confidence if you had been relieved of command when taking ownership of friendly fire incident you described in your first book?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Whether directly or indirectly, I know Jocko follows this principle. The way you do anything is the way you do everything.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And turn on the light. So what do I do? Right? Yea man, it's a conundrum. Same thing with the soy sauce bowls. Same thing. Also, here's a- here's one you might-


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But not too bad. I don't have to use the bathroom bad. Just a little bit. So what do I do? Do I hold it, power through the discomfort because the discomfort isn't that bad and hopefully I'll fall asleep?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So what do you do? You're at that, and if you really got to use the bathroom, it's no issue cause it's obvious, you know, but if you just have to a little bit, it's a hard question, right? It's true. Oh, don't even act. Don't even act. I know. I think that you have this problem.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Shoot, man, that little conundrum is everywhere. Bro, sometimes I'll be vacuuming.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And then you know how like when you vacuum over like, I don't know, let's say it's a piece of- big piece of lint. You go over the vacuum once, you know?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And it doesn't go in. You go again. It doesn't go in. You need to go. I could have picked that thing up like three, four seconds ago. So why didn't you?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, and sometimes the back, depending on your brush, depending on the back one, or the back one sometimes is more powerful.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Alright, next question. Choco. I'm a firefighter slash EMT. I recently, and recently I went on a call where a patient didn't live.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Talking to dead within minutes. I let myself enter into his shoes at that moment.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Whatever. But EMTs, man, every time you get to call it, it's just, it's just, the question is just, oh how bad, you know.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Plenty. Increasing by the, as time goes on, straight up. All made in America, and factually the best geese in the world.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Nonetheless. Get some. Yes, okay. Also, if you want to stay on the path and represent at the same time.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Attire wise. Jocko's store. It's called Jocko's store. So, go to Jocko's store dot com. That's where you can get your t-shirts.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, but here's the thing, I know that superstition is fake, but...


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[Assistant] What that does to me is like, man, it's like, so you don't really take me seriously right now.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Well, I don't know, yeaah, at the end of the day, it sort of just crept in, and yeaah, I didn't, uh,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] At a, you know, at a better level than I did today, put it that way. And the thing is, right when the timer goes off when we're done, it like, it's like an avalanche of like, reflective. It's not shame, I always think it's all part of the process, no matter how long and painful the process is.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Well, it's not about like, okay, I'm gonna like, beat up Jock. It's not that. It's more that, like I have a handful of- The thing is,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But yea, I think people, or me anyway, it's like, any time you get, like, anything's out of frustration, it's literally like maybe a 30% frustration, 70%, you're just,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Let's say I got it. Maybe that might, would that even bother you? Let's say I jump on your back in one of those situations and I got the rear naked joke and I finished it.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You can't, like, after you win and complete your masterpiece path of wins and losses, you know, through the whole thing, and you're done.


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[Assistant] Cause there's a significant amount of competition right there. So yea, you can't be messing with the other guy's wins.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It's deep in the game. So yea, if you want to represent on the path, jocostore.com. If you like something, get something.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Also subscribe to the podcast if you haven't already. We're just gonna leave it at that. If you haven't already, hey, subscribe. If you want. You don't have to subscribe.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Did you tell him and then now he wants us to stay clean or are you just sort of, you know, imposing your tagline? I impose the tagline. Alright man, I dig it either way. Also, you too, if you wanna...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] If you're interested in the video version of this podcast,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Or you wanna just see excerpts or whatever from the podcast, get on YouTube. That's where you get it.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] This is Jocko Podcast number 185 with Echo Charles and me, Jocko Willink. Good evening Echo. Good evening.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Regardless of what you believe the afterlife consists of or what it doesn't consist of.


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[Assistant] As far as what you get to hold onto once you leave here is nothing.


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[Assistant] There are no re-do's. You can't hit the rewind button. And even worse, you can't even hit the pause button.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] There's no way you can stop the clock from ticking. No possible way. The countdown is on.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] On the podcast today I have a guest, a fellow frogman, whom to the best of my knowledge is doing his best to make his days count.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] His name is Mitch Aguiar. And we just met each other. But like I said, he's a frog man. He likes jujitsu. He likes to get after it. So my guess is we should have some things to talk about.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So Mitch, welcome to the podcast. Thanks for having me. Good, good to meet you.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] 15 minutes ago. Yep. Picked you up at the airport.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I think we uh, linked up some way on social media. Correct. And you are in the AO. Doing some training. And so, here you are. Cool. Where'd you grow up?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Okay, right on. And, and so then you, were there until you said you were 11?


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[Assistant] Like how many games would you play in dodgeball? In a day? No, in like a season. What's the season? The dodgeball season?


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[Assistant] So you get done with high school, you're, and you, what makes you join the Navy?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Did you, did you go in the dive fair program to be in the teams or did you just want to be in just in the Navy?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Formula for success and so you're you're you're doing these jobs and You're you're not having a good time with you. Yeah, I ever


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Okay, so you're watching the wars are going on all through high school. You're seeing all that stuff take place.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Well, I mean, I was, I was, um, yeah, I had been in for


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So, so did you not, did you realize like, uhm,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So this was your first kind of connection, cause for me, when I was growing up, like every time some kind of war event happened, I was all bummed out that I wasn't there, cause I was too young. And,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That's just the way I was, I was always thinking about that. I was always into the military, but you were kind of like, not.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But you don't know what flipped the switch. Just mega boredom.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That is. I always tell people, uhm, not to make decisions when they're super emotional. And so I'm gonna start adding don't make decisions when you're super just bored. Yeah.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So you show up there, you show up to Buds, and you must've, you know, obviously you made it through. Was there any, what was tough for you in Buds?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeaah, it pays to be young in buds. In my opinion. Yeaah. From a physical perspective.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, I was talking to, uh, one of the medical guys there who came from like a sports environment like the, I think the NFL, I think it was the NFL, and


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Do you remember the, uh, I think it's patellofemoral syndrome? Did you ever know anyone that got that there? Anyways, there's a bunch of people that get this, this, this patellofemoral syndrome. You know, there, and he said, yeah, at Bud's I would see


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Ten cases a week of patella femoral syndrome. It's where your patella like rubs against your, your femur or something.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And he said in the NFL, you'd see like one of these.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Every year, maybe one a year. And so these guys that would come to Bud's for, from a physical, what was it, athletic trainer perspective,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Would learn so much because they're just getting these, these bodies are just going through abuse like no other bodies. And so they see all those, all these common injuries that you get to your knees, your shoulders.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You're back, like that's what, you go to Bud's as an athletic trainer, you learn, and as a doctor, you learn so much about how to deal with these things because you see,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Ten times more than you would, or more than you would anywhere else. Yeah, I believe it. But I've also talked to people who


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Say, like I was young too going through buds. How old were you? 18. Okay. And so...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You get the, uhm, you get the, you get the mind of, hey, I can just do whatever they tell me to do, you know? But there's some people that say, have told me they didn't think they were mature enough at 18 or 19 to go through buds.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Did the instructors jump around in the boats when you went through? Cause they stopped doing it at some point.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] They would, uhm, what they would do when I went through and they stopped doing this, which is a good thing. They would, they would be, like the boats would be lined up and we'd have them in head carry and the instructors would be in like boat one and then they would just jump into boat two and then jump into boat three and I remember hearing


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] When they did that to me, a couple of the times that they did it to me, I heard like this deep kind of... Inside my neck. And I remember thinking, this is probably not good. And they stopped doing it, thankfully, because that's not healthy.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I don't know if I got shorter, but I definitely took some, took some damage. Took some damage for sure.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Where did the maturity level, where could that have tripped you up?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So you get done with Buds, and you show up, and where'd you go? Team 10? Team 10, yea. Right on. And then, how was that?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, that's a classic new guy. Strong new guy. Guess what? Give him a pig.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Okay, so you, yeaah, you went straight to the, to the Mark 48, no M60 for you. That's, that's, that's nice.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So there was still a little bit of transition taking place. So you're a pig gunner, your first platoon, how was your first work up?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] What surprised you about, like, going through workup, being in a seal platoon? What was different than what you thought it was? What was different from how it was for Charlie Sheen?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Was there anything that was more challenging? Like, you know, some new guys, they have a hard time in their first platoon with whatever, with land warfare, they have a hard time with CQC, they'll have a hard time with, you know, whatever. Sometimes it's like not easy. Sometimes,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You know, you get a guy that can't dive very well or whatever. Was there anything that, was there any skill set that was hard for you? Or did you pretty much, which is, I would say most guys coming out of BUDs and SQT,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Most of them are fine. Like most of them get, get, they, they can, they pick things up pretty quick. You know, they made it through all that crap. They made it through SQT where you're getting screened, right, again. So most of the time, but still you'd still get guys showing up on a platoon that, you know, they wouldn't be comfortable with this or they wouldn't be great at that. Was there anything that was tough for you?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But your first platoon, you managed to keep your nose clean. Or at least as far as the actual law go, the actual law enforcement goes. Yea, no trouble.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And then where was that, so you did your work up, where did you guys go on deployment to? Your first deployment.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And, when you were going to Afghanistan, were you going, did you go as a whole troop to Afghanistan?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So were you guys going out on patrol from your, from your forward operating base? Was that?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And you were, uh, interacting with the local populace type thing?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That you be dumb because you didn't feel like you made any progress, didn't make any connections.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And would you go, when you said you would move positions, were you going from like, would you like switch platoons and go to a different operating base? And then you'd spend some time there with them? And then do operations with them and then after a little while go to a different one as well?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You know, people say that about certain parts of their life.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I don't have that at all, like I 100% appreciate it. Every single day I was there, I was like, this is, this is the best part of my whole life is right, is what's happening today, right now. You know, so I got kind of lucky in the fact that, you know, even talking to the guys that were new guys on, on, uh, that deployment to Ramadi, they, they just kind of,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] They were like, from then on, they'd be saying, damn, you know, I thought that's what every deployment was going to be like. It was, and it was, they just didn't have that same perspective of, hey man, this is like this target rich environment where we're getting to do what everyone's dreamed of doing their whole life. And you're going to do it all the time.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That doesn't happen, you know, it doesn't happen like that usually, you know, it's hard. And so I was pretty lucky in the fact that I, I, I was, I could appreciate it.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, no, that's, that's the, that's the way insurgents are supposed to fight, right? You're not supposed to see them, they're just supposed to pick away at you the death of a thousand cuts. You know, indirect fire, IEDs and snipers, and they don't want you to ever see them.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And that's what they want. And just to slowly pick away because they don't care about human life, they don't value human life. And here we are, you know, every time we lose someone it's a tragedy.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And they don't care if they lose guys or not. They don't, they don't care. They don't care if the civilians get killed, don't care about any of that. And so that's why they have...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That's why they have an advantage in those situations. A psychological advantage is, hey,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] We, we don't care if you kill us. And by the way, we know you care about your people. And so we're gonna pick away. And you're, hopefully you're never gonna see us and we don't care. We're gonna blow you up and we don't care.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, that's, that insurgency thing is...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] We, we had to work a lot in Ramadi in the daytime. Uhm, and the main reason why we worked, well there's a couple big reasons why we worked in the daytime in Ramadi.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Which as you, as you just pointed out is a huge tactical disadvantage compared to being out at night where we can literally see and the enemy can't. I mean it's, but in Ramada, you know, we had to work with Iraqi soldiers who didn't have night vision. So they didn't even have flashlights. They would have like one flashlight for every four people and we'd eventually got them flashlights and stuff, but anyways it was, it was,


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[Assistant] A problem because to go out at night with them, it was, they were blind. And so now you're, you're like at a, you're at the same, the same disadvantage because you're trying to, you got people that can't see mixed with people that can see and they're not getting anything out of it. They're not improving their skills at all.


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[Assistant] Yeah, and they were, they were not, not good, not good. And so that was one reason was to take them out in the daytime. To get them to operate, we had to go out with them in the daytime. And the other big one was the enemy knew that we owned the night. And so the enemy in Ramadi, they didn't come out at night. They came out in the daytime. So if you wanted to kill them, you had to go out when they were


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[Assistant] So you wrap up that deployment and come back to, come back and roll into your next, next platoon.


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[Assistant] How was that, how was that coming home? Now you're, now you're home. You did the two weeks in the middle. How was the transition when you got home?


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[Assistant] War is different for everybody and it's, I remember my first deployment to Iraq, we, we, we traveled a lot and we went to a lot of different places and so we'd go from like the incredible


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[Assistant] And then you come back to another, another like main fob and it's all luxurious and nice and I mean it just kinda is what it is. For sure. You know? It just kinda is what it is and that actually makes sense what that female said about, you know,


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[Assistant] Hey, it's, different people are there, they're there for different reasons, you know.


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[Assistant] There's no doubt about that. So dude, when you went to a bat, when you got home and you got put into a new platoon, did you guys keep a core group of guys from your, from your previous platoon together? Or was it like brand new?


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[Assistant] Ah, Jack. And as you get, you do another workup. Yep.


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[Assistant] Yeah, I just realized just to shed some light on to everyone. So when you deploy in a SEAL platoon or a SEAL troop, you can deploy to different parts of the world. Sometimes you deploy to places like Iraq and Afghanistan, which as we just kind of discussed, that's where everybody wants to go.


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[Assistant] And so, yeaah, and that's the way it goes sometimes. There's a mission that has to be done, and it's a different kind of mission. You're going to build relationships with other countries, and you do these exercises and do training events, but it's not generally what guys are excited to do in the SEAL team. So, there's always


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[Assistant] There's always a, you know, I always get asked that question when I, when I go and talk to SEALs is, hey, my guys are going here, how do I keep them on, you know, how do I keep them, how do I keep them engaged when...


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[Assistant] Yeah, I mean I got to see like over and over again just guys that didn't know how to, didn't know anything and they'd get in a simple prison or handling situation.


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[Assistant] And wouldn't be able to handle someone. And the only thing that they would know to do is like bludgeon them in the head. Which is cool, that's fine, I get it. But, when you bring that person into the detainment facility, and they're freaking all jacked up, and then it turns out that they're


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[Assistant] Not the person you were looking for or whatever. And, and that just doesn't, that's just not, that's just not cool.


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[Assistant] And it's not, it's not tactically the best thing to do because you don't have the control. I mean, you can't count on punching someone or hitting them in the head. You can't count on that solving the problem. Whereas jujitsu, it's like, yeah, no, I have this human under control. Whereas you can, you know, you've punched people before that.


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[Assistant] You nailed them and they shook it off like it didn't even happen.


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[Assistant] Muscle strikes. I've seen, I've had guys...


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[Assistant] I mean, I've muzzled struck plenty of people, but like, I've had guys that I've seen put the craziest, most aggressive muzzle strike on a dude and have the dude shh, bleeding, yeaah, but like, still fighting.


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[Assistant] And they hate you. And they hate your society. And they're a jihadist. It's like yea, that muzzle strike, if it doesn't knock them out, which sure, it is possible, but the idea that that was just gonna stop someone in their tracks 100% of the time was completely ludicrous.


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[Assistant] Now, with jujitsu, at least you're gonna have some control. More control. And even that's not 100%. You know? Cause you could, you know, you've got someone that's really small, you've got someone that's really big, and depending on your skill level, there could be issues there.


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[Assistant] Uhm, yeaah, so you finally started training at a school. Yeaah. 2012. Yeaah. And then you just dove in all the way.


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[Assistant] Yeah, yeah, well there's, it's uhm, you know, I was, the discussion that used to happen a lot with all this stuff, because believe me, I was in this discussion for a long, long, long time.


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[Assistant] People are super, people are super emotional about uhm, about combatives. And, you know, I would always, like,


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[Assistant] I wasn't, I wasn't as emotional as I, I wasn't very emotional about it, but for me it was just like, hey,


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[Assistant] Guys need to know how to do this. This isn't about emotion, this is about just the facts of being ready to be prepared, being prepared on the battlefield. That's what you need to be. And, you know, one of the things that people would say was, you know, uhm, the, like the speed shooting contest.


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[Assistant] You shouldn't do that because it'll take away from your operational capability. Okay, I get it. However,


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[Assistant] Who does better on the range? The guy that's like a, uh.


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[Assistant] A hobby shooter too, and then goes out to whatever CQC. He's drillin' nails all day long. Same thing with parachuting. Like, oh okay, so I skydive whatever. I'm a, I'm a skydiver on the weekends and I like to go down and have a ton of jumps. I have, you know, 2000 jumps with my slick rig.


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[Assistant] How do I do when I put a combat equipment on? I do awesome. I'm way better than like a guy like me, cause I wasn't like a recreational skydiver. Whenever I put equipment on, it was like, it was, it was a, I had to pay attention. Whereas the guys that were good skydivers in the civilian side, they were good. Same thing with like, oh, who's gonna do better


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[Assistant] In a, in a grappling match, a guy that wrestled in high school,


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[Assistant] With his gear on or a guy that didn't, you know, has his gear on. It's like it doesn't matter. You get certain skill level and you're gonna do great. And that's just the way it is. Now, what you can't do is just say, oh well we're never gonna train with gear on because there are


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[Assistant] It's like saying, hey, we're never gonna train with a gi. If someone never trained with a gi before,


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[Assistant] And they go against someone with a gi. It depends on how long that person's been training with a gi for. Because, hey, no gi and gi have all kinds of similarities. They have all kinds of similarities. They also have some differences. And depending on


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[Assistant] How much you do of each is where you're going to kind of shake out which one you're better at.


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[Assistant] There is, there is so much crossover between gi and no gi. Between...


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[Assistant] Skydiving on the weekends and skydiving in the teams and shooting on the weekends and shooting in the teams. The way I always looked at it was train more. Train, train all the time with everything, you know, as much as you can. And that's, that's how you get better at things.


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[Assistant] But yea, that combatives thing was uhm, and it still is. It still is. I know. It's, it's, it's...


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[Assistant] It's hard, it's hard to change, shift that.


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[Assistant] Yeah, and I was, I was when someone would say, guys should be working on shooting. I'd say, I totally agree, absolutely. You know, give us a range, you know, in the building, and we'll do that in the building, because that's without question our primary weapon system. And,


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[Assistant] You know, no doubt. You want to be a great shot, for sure. Guess what? How many hours are you going to shoot a day?


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[Assistant] I mean, are you gonna shoot 22 hours a day? Cause you're gonna have some time at some point where you go, you know what, let's get some other skills in here. You know, we might as well know, and like you said earlier,


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[Assistant] You can't just go, you don't just go on target and shoot everyone. There's uh, there's uh,


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[Assistant] Female, you know, Dave Burke, who's one of the guys at Eshel on front. Good deal. Yeaah. He, he has a, he has a story that he tells about the first time he came face to face with this, like, Iraqi woman that did not want him in the house, and he's, you know, whatever, a 18 year marine at this point, and he didn't know what to do.


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[Assistant] It's like, yeaah. You, you, you need to train. You need to train to handle those situations.


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[Assistant] Dude, when I talk to Tim Kennedy about this, like, it's so crazy. The army gave that guy, and gives him so much- I mean, he's a great guy, and obviously a credible fighter. But yea, I mean, he was just full on just getting after it, man. Well, and he still is! Yea, and they support him. Yea, he's aw- it's awesome. It's awesome.


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[Assistant] This is actually Tim's co- uh, company. No, Tim, but for a while Tim, Tim was like,


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[Assistant] I forget the exact story, but he, he was sponsored by like the army. Yeah. For a while. They were using it as like a recruiting tool. And then he said, listen, you can either keep paying me a sponsorship or you can just let me come back on active duty. And, and they were like, uh, that sounds like a good financial deal for us. So yeah, Tim, Tim's.


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[Assistant] There's probably a po- in fact I remember seeing some kind of policy.


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[Assistant] The, uh, you know I was up at the California State Championships last year. Or no, it was 2019, yea.


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[Assistant] And that's, you know, I gotta say, like, the SEAL teams, I never tried to fight pro, but like, the SEAL teams was totally support, like, I would go and train at places, they'd give me- Well, the West Coast was a lot different.


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[Assistant] Thanks. So you get out and then when did you go pro?


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[Assistant] So you've been pro for a year and a half, two years right now? Yea, a year and a half. And how many pro fights do you have?


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[Assistant] Yeah, well, it's from Brazil. In Brazil, there's a Sanga and there's a Sangao, and I think the Sanga is like the smaller one, and the Sangao is like a little bit, but they're Speedos. Yeah, they're essentially Speedos. They're Speedos and Dean Lister.


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[Assistant] Because he has so much Brazilian influence in his brain, he went through his phase of training with a sungao.


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[Assistant] I'm not, I'm not, I'm very anti-Sangha and Sangha. But you, you know, you go for it. Hey, it's, if, if I wouldn't, it would make me want to fight you less if you were wearing that. So you got that little psychological edge to your part.


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[Assistant] Which is, I mean, do you remember, were you watching like UFC when everyone was, when all the Brazilians were still wearing them in UFC? And they still do sometimes.


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[Assistant] When you find out who your opponent is, you gotta watch him, you gotta watch him, you gotta at least figure out, because there's people that have things, they have their game, and if they have that game, and you, and you know about it, as you know, like if, if you know I'm good at whatever, you'll defend that thing, right?


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[Assistant] And if you don't know it, well then, I'll get you in that situation, right? If you really, let's like uhm,


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[Assistant] Well, anybody, anybody, if you, everyone's got that thing at their game that they're good at, right? And, like, in jujitsu, hey, this guy's got a good guillotine, this guy's got a good armlock, this guy's got good heel hooks or whatever, everyone's got their little thing.


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[Assistant] And if they're good at it, then that's what they'll kind of...


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[Assistant] Steer you towards. But uhm, yeaah, so I always, and I always say, look, I get it, we don't care who the opponent is, but when you find out who your opponent is,


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[Assistant] Guess what they'll go back to? They'll go back to what they're good at. You know what I mean? So that's another thing to think about. Well cool.


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[Assistant] Good outcome. Well this is a pretty good spot since we're up to current events. What else? I know you got your supplement company, you got t-shirts, what else? How can people support what you got going on?


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[Assistant] Thank you. That's a good time. Well, awesome. Uhm, hey, speaking of fighting. Sure. And smashing things. Sure. I mean, Echo. Yes. We want to be better at fighting. We want to be better at living. What do you got? What do you got for us?


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[Assistant] So jeans, you can get them. T-shirts, rash guards, supplements.


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[Assistant] Get your discipline too. Yeah, fully. Get your discipline. Discipline is like all day now. Yes sir. That's kind of where it's going. It's like yeah, guess what I'm just drinking. Oh, I'm just going to have some discipline. Right. It's kind of.


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[Assistant] There's not like a super caffeinated deal, cause I don't drink a lot of caffeine and I don't want to drink a lot of caffeine. So, yea. A little cognitive, a little physical.


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[Assistant] Yeah, I don't have like some in them. I won't drink it like after dinner. You know, because I, there's a little bit of caffeine in it, and I don't drink a lot of caffeine, so.


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[Assistant] I have tea, the white tea has some caffeine in it too. So I guess I do drink caffeine, but I don't drink high doses like, like a, like a monster energy drink or whatever.


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[Assistant] It's like we, it's hard to call it an energy drink because energy drink puts it in a...


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[Assistant] All flavors. I like that just saying. If you want a dessert.


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[Assistant] Uh, he was into mint, but I think peanut butter. See, the peanut butter was kind of like the shhhht came out of nowhere and started smashing.


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[Assistant] You know the deal man, from, like you were talking about sleeping in a helicopter, like you wake up from those things and you're totally on fire. You know, sleep for 10 minutes, 8 minutes, whatever. So yea, I have no problem with this.


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[Assistant] Truckers hats. Yeaah. For those of us that like truckers, like truckers hats, which apparently we do. They're nice.


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[Assistant] Don't forget about the warrior kid podcast which there are now three new warrior kid podcasts live at this time Yeah, good one stories from uncle Jake. Yeah stories that teach lessons an interview with


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] John Bozak, the warrior kid artist that drew Mike and the Dragons. Talking about how to get better at art. How to use art as a tool. To get better at other things.


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[Assistant] I didn't draw in my books, no. But I mean, yeaah, I can draw.


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[Assistant] I tried to explain it to you, nine different times, and you kept sending me back junk. Finally I said, okay, picture's worth a thousand words. I don't feel like explaining this a thousand times. Let's just send them up.


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[Assistant] A rudimentary sketch of the concept, which you then chiseled out into, you know, glory.


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[Assistant] Don't forget about Warrior Kids Soap from IrishOaksRanch.com that young Aiden is making on his farm. If you get soap, you can. Stay clean.


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[Assistant] Psychological warfare. Is an out.


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[Assistant] If the, if you want the visual version of that, go to flipsidecanvas.com, my brother Dakota Meyer has a little company where he's making


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Things that you hang on your wall. Artistic things. Some people call them artistic things. And you can get those if you want him to make a special one.


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[Assistant] Got some books. Way of the Warrior Kid 3. It's out. It's called Where There's a Will. Teaching kids about how to go harder. That's a little lesson in this book.


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[Assistant] You gotta push harder and also teaching them about their ego and how their ego will get them in trouble.


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[Assistant] Everyone wishes they would have learned about ego earlier because it makes your life better.


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[Assistant] Of course there's Way of the Warrior Kid 1 and Way of the Warrior Kid 2, Mark's Mission. Those books are for kids to learn to get on the path.


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[Assistant] If they're a little bit younger than that, you can get a Mikey and the Dragons. They can learn about how to overcome their fear. There's actual pragmatic protocols that you can take as a human being to overcome what you're afraid of. Why not learn that when you're five years old?


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[Assistant] That's my question. Why not? Because you didn't know about the book Mikey and the Dragons. Now you know about it. Your kids are just out there conquering fears. Which is a positive thing.


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[Assistant] If you go, Hey Jocko, can you post your workouts? Yes, they're in the Discipline Equals Freedom Field Manual. Hey Jocko, what do you think you should do in a situation like this? Oh, it's in the Discipline Equals Freedom Field Manual. Hey Jocko, what do you eat? It's in the manual.


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[Assistant] What's your sleep routine? It's in the manual. Do you take naps? It's in the manual. It's all in there.


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[Assistant] So, the Discipline Equals Freedom Field Manual, the guide to getting after it. If you want the audio version of that, it's on iTunes.


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[Assistant] And the dichotomy of leadership written by me and my brother, Leif Babin. Those are gonna help you.


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[Assistant] Of course we have Echelon Front which is my leadership consultancy and what we do is solve problems through leadership because all the problems that you're having in your life right now, in an organization,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Our leadership problems. I don't care what they are. And if you want to solve those problems, you have to fix your leadership. And that's what we do. It's me, Leif Babin, JP Donnell, Dave Burke. Yes.


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[Assistant] Flynn Cochran, Mike Cirelli, Mike Baima, and Jason Garner. Go to EchelonFront.com for details. We also have EF Online.


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[Assistant] Which is online leadership training. Which is something that's hard to comprehend. How are you gonna take leadership and teach people leadership?


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[Assistant] From an online thing, an online training program. Well, you read about it, you take tests on it, and then you get put in scenarios, interactive scenarios on


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[Assistant] The computer. We have to make decisions. So, that's EF Online. Then we have The Muster, which is a leadership.


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[Assistant] Conference to leadership event gathering gathering gathering. Yeah, it's all it's all of the most is what it is Yeah, it's a muster. It is but it's the muster


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[Assistant] So look, the muster leadership, they've all sold out and they're all gonna sell out. The next one is September 19th and 20th in Denver. After that, December 4th and 5th in Sydney, Australia. Check out extremeownership.com for details if you want to come. Don't wait!


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[Assistant] So don't wait. And then of course we have EF Overwatch where we take


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[Assistant] Proven combat leaders from special operations from combat aviation and put them into companies in the civilian sector that need leadership. Leadership is the most important thing on the battlefield. Why not get battle tested leaders to help out you inside your business? Go to EF Overwatch.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And if you want to ask me a question, us a question, you want to give me an answer? Did I mess something up today? Probably. You want to let me know about that? Please bring it. Mitch, as he said, he is on Instagram.


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[Assistant] Well, we're on Twitter and Instagram. And on Dash.


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[Assistant] And I am at Jocko Willink Echo. Anything else?


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[Assistant] Awesome. Well Mitch, thanks for coming on. Appreciate it. And uh, thanks for your work in the teams. And I'm sure you're gonna keep putting forth maximum effort to smash people in the cage. Look forward to seeing that.


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[Assistant] And to all the other vets out there, and to those that are still in uniform, thank you for standing watch over freedom.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Before our great nation and to our police and law enforcement and firefighters and paramedics and EMTs and dispatchers and correctional officers and border patrol secret service and all the first responders I travel around the country and I run into you all the time


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[Assistant] And I see what you're doing out there, working, working hard. And the reason that we live safely here in our country is you.


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[Assistant] So thank you for holding the line here at home.


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[Assistant] And everyone else out there, remember that you can't hit the pause button.


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[Assistant] It doesn't matter at all if you get knocked down or you get tripped up or you think that something isn't fair. It doesn't matter. You still don't get to stop.


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[Assistant] And until next time, this is Mitch, Aguiar, and Echo, and Jocko.


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[Assistant] I've actually read it a few times. I can't remember exactly the last time I read it, but it was well before any of this. And when I read it, it wasn't a review. It was, it was,


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[Assistant] It was like a whole new book, the way I was reading it, because I was just seeing things in there that I couldn't make any connections to before, that I can make the connections now, partially because it's so simple and straightforward.


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[Assistant] I think that distinction of a problem versus a dilemma is, is the critical thing because


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[Assistant] With a dilemma, you actually have to react. Your choices can't just be, hey, we're going to ride this thing out and let it play itself out. You actually have to react. Because if you do nothing, that initial move that they're making, that by itself, if you don't react to indirect fire, you just stand there, that could


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[Assistant] It's, it's awful feeling of what that feels like of, hey, we have to do something and then you start to play it out.


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[Assistant] And in your mind, like, if I do this, then this, and it could be actually paralyzing if you're not careful about it, it will paralyze you in doing nothing, which is every bit as bad.


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[Assistant] That for me, and I talked about I think the last podcast about that.


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[Assistant] And I remember one of the, the thinking about


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[Assistant] And I ignored the arm bar, and he tapped me about 5 seconds in an arm bar.


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[Assistant] Because I did no reaction to it and it's, and that's really, that's what the dilemma is and on the, on the receiving end is recognizing.


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[Assistant] That feint could be the death blow if you actually don't respond to it correctly. If he's not doing it just as a feint, he's actually doing it to reveal your weakness, which is the key to that. And the Marine Corps operates expecting they don't have some massive numeric advantage. The Marine Corps doesn't go to war thinking they've got five to one manpower advantage. They go to war.


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[Assistant] With the numerical disadvantage to create these points of friction so that limited resources create a problem that the enemy has to respond to and if they don't respond, they kill them anyway.


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[Assistant] Look, the enemy doesn't have an unlimited number of directions to attack us from all the time. There are actually places where they can attack, areas that we control, areas that we have dominance over, and so, if you think about it, they actually had a limited number of things they could do, and if we prepared enough,


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[Assistant] We could actually have pre-planned responses into the most likely areas that immediately we could respond with as we're ducking, getting our heads down as opposed to


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[Assistant] It's absolutely an eventuality we, we, we should prepare for, and there's things you can do to respond just like you said, and we, we would do that. I mean, that's why we didn't get overwhelmed when they attacked us, because we had a plan for how to respond to that.


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[Assistant] Yes, it's so huge. It's so important to think about that. And look, that's one of the beautiful things about the ethos of the Marine Corps and why TBS is so important is


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[Assistant] When we say every Marine's a rifleman, that's not just words. That's, that's a real, now, does that mean every Marine is as competent as an infantryman in the Marine Corps? No, it doesn't. If you're an infantryman, you're going to be more competent in those things. But at the basic school for a Marine officer, I had exposure to virtually every single


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[Assistant] Arms profession in the Marine Corps. And in business, we see this when we talk about hate.


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[Assistant] Do I need to have a hundred percent understanding of what's going on with IT? No. But actually what you need is a good understanding of that and a relationship strong enough to leverage what they're doing, not just because it's help, but because actually that can be the difference maker in you being successful.


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[Assistant] Uh, and in business too, they wall themselves off, this is what I do, you do that, and they're on the opposite side of the fence, inside the same company.


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[Assistant] If there is a tactic that is disconnected from the strategy, it's, it's virtually guaranteed to lose. And that's why there's a difference between


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[Assistant] I'd gotten some feedback in a survey that a couple folks at the company weren't real happy. They didn't really feel that they were well used and that their contribution was marginal and they didn't feel like they were a big part of the team. And one of those feedbacks was to.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Figure out what that is. And I'd ask the, it was a COO, and I asked him, hey, there's a guy in this department, and this is some of the feedback, and his answer was a good, well,


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[Assistant] And so what are you doing with him? Like, not much. We really just didn't want our competition to get him. I'm thinking...


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[Assistant] And just kind of that missing of just, you've done nothing for the big picture and actually this person is going to be more motivated over time when he leaves your company.


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[Assistant] He bulldozed you because of what you did to him in doing that. Uh, and you see that you're like, man, this is, and it's not a hard problem to solve. You can, when you see it from the outside, but from the inside, it was, we won. We got the win. We pulled this guy over.


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[Assistant] What is really helpful as a leader to be able to understand to do those things is not, not just the strategic, is to what we talked about in the last podcast, which is actually care about them.


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[Assistant] Is, is one of the things that guides you to recognize that that would be so critical for them. And the return on that would be that...


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[Assistant] The loyalty and all the things that that person, that you really, what you really want is for them to do it anyway. And it's not a trick, it's actually believing in that person's


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] To have that thing, which is, you know, I know you want more control over your fate, we all do.


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[Assistant] And the irony is, the return of that is I get what I want. I get this incredibly loyal person that will do anything for me.


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[Assistant] Yeah, and it's, it actually helps solve so many other problems. If you're deficient in resources and all the, in combat or anywhere.


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[Assistant] It actually is a huge hedge against not having all the things you wish you had. More guns and bombs and, okay, we don't have those.


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[Assistant] But you can have all the resources in the world and if you're not in the right place to utilize them, it isn't going to work. That's true in combat. That's true. That's true anywhere. And it isn't just, oh, the high ground, the biggest hill is not always, it's actually being able to just see what the terrain looks like and recognizing that is the best place to be.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] To recognize where the culminating event is going to occur to bring my forces to bear. It's here and I see that and I've got to get control of that terrain.


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[Assistant] And if you actually occupy that moral, if you actually do occupy the high ground there, and you actually do have the truth, you can be transparent and honest about it. You don't have anything to hide, because those things, those aren't, those are lies. And if you actually have that,


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[Assistant] Then you actually have the weapon, and you occupy that high ground because...


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[Assistant] You're doing it the right way. You're not lying. You're not, you're not doing those things.


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[Assistant] If you're actually covering some of those things up, if you actually are hiding some of that, and you've advocated that moral piece of this,


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[Assistant] You talked about, I've heard you talk about weather in the past. I use it as an example a lot. Because in aviation, weather makes a massive impact in what you do in an airplane.


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[Assistant] The reality is, is that when it comes to something like weather as the idea of a snowstorm, we're in 100% of control of how we react to it.


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[Assistant] We're 100% in control of what we choose to do based on this blinding snowstorm. And the reality is, you know what most people do in a blinding snowstorm? They button up. Cover up. That's what, that's what most people do. And so, and I think it was really the point you were making at the very beginning is, you know what the best, I am praying for a snowstorm.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] To use that to your advantage and actually welcome this inclement weather, this giant blinding snowstorm, uhm.


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[Assistant] That's what good leaders do, is they get people around them to, to, to do those things. You know?


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[Assistant] That's, that's an amazing situation to think about given the environment where most people are like, I'm just gonna hole up, I can't deal with this, it's too cold, it's too biting, it's too hard. And that's the vehicle used to actually, I want the weather to be bad.


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[Assistant] Yeah, and the feeling of the discomfort and the pain and all the negative things that you might associate with operating in those types of environments, which is the reason people aren't doing it.


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[Assistant] Vastly outweighs whatever discomfort you might be feeling when they, hey, we're going to suck it up and operate in bad weather or we're going to do things that our competition doesn't want to do because it sort of sucks. It does suck. It's extra time. It's extra whatever it is. Winning makes all that go away.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] All those, all that, it just goes away. And you're, that feeling of being victorious in that environment makes all that worth it. And just the willingness to just do, like you said, we're just going to do the work that they're not willing to do. And that's going to be the difference.


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[Assistant] It's definitely a part of it and those skills are important, but the preponderance of the time is multiple forces, large forces against large forces.


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[Assistant] The culminating events up at Fallon, you know, the final exercises at both Top Gun and the air wing training, which is carrier training for war, would be 20-25 years.


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[Assistant] Not the game of them, they would get better. Now we would also, we would try to represent traditional enemy tactics, and so they were working through problem sets. Uhm, but it got to the point that on airwing against airwing,


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[Assistant] If they would get to a point that if they executed the tactics correctly, they would be successful on the airwing side.


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[Assistant] No, they would go against the trainers that would be representing an enemy air force.


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[Assistant] To, to, in the same airplanes at the same, sort of the same squadron against the actual American air wing that would come in from whatever carrier coming through. And they'd bring their jets from their squadrons getting ready to deploy against enemy, that was called air wing training. So we would represent an enemy air wing.


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[Assistant] And actually what would happen by the end of their training, they understood the fundamental principles they needed to utilize. And if Erwin came through and at the end, they weren't doing those things, not only would they not win,


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[Assistant] And that was, that's a, now that's a rare event, but there are times you sit there like, you did not actually complete, you didn't- Did you guys reload them?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] This isn't just a, hey, how do you feel? This is, you actually have to demonstrate the things. But if they did, which usually they did, these are smart guys, they started applying the tactics and understand what they're doing correctly and implement the principles we taught, they would be successful. It would work.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, and it worked most of the time. And, and you know, you know which units, which air wings came through that didn't do that?


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[Assistant] Those that had the commanders that said, I've got this figured out. I don't need, those are the ones that would struggle the most.


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[Assistant] But actually being able to maneuver 20 airplanes, that


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[Assistant] Actually led to flexibility where I could break off, you and I could just break away from the entire air wing if required and you and I would-


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[Assistant] Being solo is a bad idea. It's almost never a good idea to be by yourself. But if you had just one other airplane.


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[Assistant] Just like that story with the guy with the tree, if you had just one other machine out there with you, you could maneuver in relationship to each other.


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[Assistant] To put the enemy in a position that if they are active one, they get killed by the other and vice versa.


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[Assistant] There's Dave and we'd have these giant screens and you could watch all these computer screens, a little icon and there's Dave by himself down and you'd see it and what you could watch from the TV screen is


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] All the enemy forces maneuvering on Dave and there's Dave down there running by himself and you just set your watch because Dave's, but if he had one other guy.


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[Assistant] And it's not always just one, sometimes it's more than one. But if you had just one other guy, you actually could maneuver with that other person and create real problems for the enemy. And as soon as you were alone, as soon as you were a raging single, people were setting their stopwatches because you're just, you're just gonna die. You're not gonna survive.


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[Assistant] He'd get locked into this one guy he thinks he's fighting against, thinking it's one against one, and he loses sight of the big picture, he goes down the wrong path, and he doesn't recognize that he's actually getting maneuvered on, and that one guy that he's looking to target is actually baiting him into moving into this place. It wasn't always another airplane, sometimes it was a sand bush, we called it where


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Pull himself over train with their surface air missiles. There's a whole bunch of things going on there, but it was typically someone who lost situational awareness.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, to see where the gap is, and then you're, yeah, absolutely.


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[Assistant] And then I got to fly a stealth airplane. I started flying the F-22 and it has all these attributes that the other airplanes didn't have. But you know what we never did in the F-22, no matter how


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[Assistant] It's powerful and invisible, all those things. We still didn't do the frontal assault. We still created maneuvers that created even more ambiguity and leveraged this thing.


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[Assistant] People think like if you get the advantage, that means you go straight at them and run them over. That's actually not what it means. It just allows you to create even more confusion.


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[Assistant] More ambiguity and what that means is the place and the opportunity to recognize where the weakness is, there's more of that. It gives you more opportunity to see where there's gaps up here, but then you still look for those gaps and you take even more advantage of what you're doing and that's how an incredibly small number of stealth airplanes


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Can wipe out a much bigger, so the force ratios are even less in an airplane, uh, in a stealth airplane. So I only need 4 Raptors, so I might need 16 Hornets.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Because I can create even more ambiguity and the opportunity for those maybe used to be one or two gaps, now there's going to be four or five or six that I create based on that exact same principle. And once that happens, we all go into that hole and we fill that and we exploit them and wipe them out with a force ratio and a missile ratio that's even less than it was in an older machine.


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[Assistant] Uh, and when you see the reaction of an enemy who simply doesn't understand what's happening,


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[Assistant] When you are having to react to something you don't understand, and you don't, night attacks, ambushes thing, when you just simply don't know what's happening.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The force multiplier of that is significantly higher than when they see you and you're just, you just outmaneuver them, which is actually fairly rare in combat when they see what's going on. It's usually kind of a stalemate.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] This location as a possible enemy advance, meaning for us when that was ruled out and then it happened.


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[Assistant] I had this wrong. I recognize that. Yes. And where that actually comes from is you not wanting to win. It's you wanting me to win. It comes from you not wanting to beat me is like, cause you could beat me and I won. And that's, it can make, but actually what you want is you want me to figure that out.


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[Assistant] Not that I walked away and go, Jocko beat me, it's that I feel like, oh, I see this differently, so next time I do it the right way.


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[Assistant] And it comes from you actually wanting me to be successful. So when we're going at our folks and we, if we have these conversations and really what we're trying to get them to do is recognize it themselves.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It's not for the satisfaction of being right. It's for them to get better and learn and evolve and feel like they can go do it better, which is what I really want. It's for them to go do it the right way.


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[Assistant] And think of the power of the times where if you were in the leadership position where you actually have that conversation and then rec- you know what? Their planet's actually better than mine.


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[Assistant] It's actually not effective anymore either because I've just come to realize this guy, he's always got some answer. He's always got some final thing that makes him right. And I almost kind of resigned myself to that. But if, if every, not, not by design, but because it actually, you actually are humble enough to see and go, you know what, dude, I didn't.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I didn't see that. That's a really interesting, let's do that. Go, go, go down that road, go down that road and I'll back you up. And if that happens often enough that I feel like these conversations aren't a contest over right, the conversation is actually how we both get to the right place.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And look, if you're more experienced, you've done it more, you probably are gonna be right more often. But not all the time.


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[Assistant] Yeah, for the leaders out there listening to this, the humility that it requires to do that is actually your, your, that's your biggest tool.


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[Assistant] Because more often than not, these situations are a superior and a subordinate. And you know who knows who's the superior?


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[Assistant] Everybody in the conversation, I write your performance review.


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[Assistant] I write your paycheck. I do all, I have all this organizational influence that I can exert over you.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I know that, and the subordinate knows that. And if I'm leveraging that to be right in the conversation, eventually, unless the subordinate just wants to get fired,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He's gonna, he's gonna give in, but if I have all those positional advantages...


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[Assistant] And I still come in with the humility and reckon, oh, that's a really good idea. I didn't see that. And I push that down to you and we go run with your plan.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, cause the hour of patrolling is, you have to get there. So you have to do that.


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[Assistant] That, that amount of time to get where you're going, whatever that amount of time is, you have to do that. And you are undeniably, especially in your body, you're exposed no matter how much firepower you're bringing or how much you're bringing to that.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And it requires very little of the enemy to disrupt and to do very little. It was easiest for them when we were doing that.


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[Assistant] Spend as much time as you possibly can taking advantage of whatever it is you've created by going through that work, uh, and doing that.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The ambush should be the goal every time. Your goal should be to keep the enemy from not understanding what's happening all the time.


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[Assistant] Even if you actually win the engagement, it's just a loser. And the mindset should always be outmaneuver them. Yes.


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[Assistant] And, and you, it, it, it's, when you hear it, it sounds so simple.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Totally. And, and probably the biggest thing that we need, that I talk about and I try to explain and dispel the myth. Look, when we're talking about flanking your enemies in combat, you are actually talking about maneuvering to destroy them. To get into position to wipe them out.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And if you're taking the analogy of, I have someone I work with, this is a peer, this is my boss, this is an account, this is someone on my team.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The flanking and the outmaneuvering isn't to destroy them, it's to get to a place for them to recognize there's a better way for me to do it that actually helps him, helps me, helps the team. And so my life gets better. And that frontal assault.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Even if it's well intended, prevents that from happening because the recipient can't actually hear what you're trying to get across, which is the better way because he's defensive and, and you're putting him in a...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So even if the frontal assault makes sense in your mind because you have this totally outsized, all your information is right and it seems so clear,


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[Assistant] You're still dealing with another human being who most of the time simply doesn't want to hear it. And is going to get defensive.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You're just trying to build trust. Just get, just trying to build a relationship and build some trust. And you could be a hundred percent right and they could be a hundred percent wrong. And if you attack them to prove that point.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I can talk to you. I can have a relationship with you. I can communicate with you.


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[Assistant] When you do eventually circle back to the thing that was sort of the initiation of the conflict,


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[Assistant] I'm actually gonna listen to you. And that's what I'm gonna, okay, I'll hear you out and hear what you have to say.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Of what's, what's the best thing in their world and the best outcome that you're trying to get to. It's the idea of conflict avoidance. It's more the idea of, is this person going to listen to me?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And if, and if the person won't listen to me and I move backwards, not, not, not only do I lose, they lose too.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] They lose. And you, and we talked about what a, what a really, what a leader really wants is they care about their people. They want their people to just what we said. You want their lives to be better.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So do I need to take, maybe it's going to take longer than I'd like it to take. I'm not going to solve this today because I have nothing, no foundation to build on. I have to start with a conversation and go from there.


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[Assistant] Yeah, and speed doesn't just mean my plane is faster than yours. In this case, it's the operational tempo speed of how quickly can I get my guys back into an airplane? And, and that was a huge advantage that they had because every time an airplane got shot down, they literally just got in a truck and drove back to base.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And look, six hours in a plane for me is a godsend. Cause I got basically no distraction. I got my laptop and I'm, I'm hammer. I'm working. I'm cranking out.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Guy watched a movie on a- on the plane and I kinda saw- and I saw the movie, I don't know what the movie was. When the movie ended, he replayed the same movie again.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I don't know what, what he's doing. And look, take a nap or something, kind of refresh and then get to get back in the game. But I see it in my kids. I mean, their natural state is to do nothing productive. And you actually have to recognize that if you're not doing, if you're not physically doing something, you need to be mentally doing something right then to think about what is my next move? What am I going to do right after this?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, we talk about all the time and that strategic patience of, hey, you have to let the situation develops. You, you actually get more understanding of what's happening. So the move that you do make is the right move. And when you're talking about your folks, you're not, not being able to run at the highest up temple all the time.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You know, especially if we work with these younger companies, startups that are growing, your folks aren't always going to tell you either.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Don't, for sure. And every company should think like that.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] We've worked with companies that are, one of the challenges they're facing is they have...


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[Assistant] Competitors, you know, they have strong competitors and they're trying to carve out more market share or they're trying to enter a geographic region that maybe they don't have a foothold in and they want to move into there and to expand their business. When we talk about what


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] What they want with regards to the competition and the things that they say are things like, we want to annihilate them.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I mean, they're working, the competition in the private sector is, it is fierce. And when they're talking about, they want to run you out of business. I mean, it is legitimate competition that are talking about here, not that we're going to find a natural way to share. They want to run you down. And I think the private set, they recognize that. And if you are not maneuvering into that space.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Your competition is, and their goal is to bury you. That's really what their goal is. And we see in the private sector, when we see companies that are slow on that and they want to wait and kind of see how this


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And their enemies maneuvering into that space, even if their first maneuver into that space isn't ideal, they're in there and they have the foothold and your ability to get that back is almost zero if they get out in front of you there. And make no mistake in combat, they're trying to kill you. They're trying to run you over.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Really historically successful company that has done great work and had year after year of good work. That is paranoid of that.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Those companies are hard to take down because they've got all those tangible things and they had that mindset of what got us here doesn't guarantee that we get it tomorrow and when you see a good company that wants to get better,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And they are paranoid of the insurgency that they used to be five years-


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Those are, and the ones that fight off the complacency, that fight off the ego of, hey, we've arrived, we've accomplished our objective.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Amen. And for every leader that has that feeling about their team, those leaders, you want that, for someone like me to come into Echelon Front, how about Dave Burks, the reason this company failed?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That feeling of paranoia of there is no way I'm going to contribute to this company not being successful. And if you get those leaders that have created something and built something and they have that same feeling of ownership all the way down to the bottom where the most junior person, the most new, the newest hires is,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Paranoid and they are in the game. That's it. That force is so powerful and it's to cultivate and the way to do that if you're early is to give them that same amount of that same ownership you have of this is yours. And oh, by the way, that means.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] We are, we, we can all lose here. You have to feel that same feeling of, I, I, I could be the reason we fail, and I am not going to let that happen. Uh, and that's a...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That's a burden. That, that is, that, that, that's a burden. That's a feeling that stays with you and it stays, and if you don't have that feeling,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And if you actually take the mindset that nothing is ever gonna happen the way that you plan it to happen, if you just accept that, which I think was verbatim out of the beginning of this, is your plan is not gonna go the way that you think, you immediately recognize that that's not a good plan.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And it doesn't mean everybody needs to be an expert in every single thing. That's not what it means.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But it means everybody, and you talked about the transitions, everybody has to have the flexibility and then recognize, you talk about a protocol, okay, I can't answer what we're going to do and all.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But I know there's a protocol, this is what we're gonna do. The four of us, we're gonna go, and we're gonna go attack that problem. That problem will reveal itself as we move down it. But the...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Hey, I'm a, I'm a, I don't, I don't do that mission. I'm a this guy mission.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Well, I'm really sorry that we haven't chosen to do this mission because the enemy is now doing something totally different. So the alternative is to sit here and do nothing.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Or that we can get up and actually transition out of this mindset, you know, the defense to offense, all those things. That's all mindset. People actually can get good at that.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But through, through doing it over and over again they can actually get, get good at that.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So the beauty of this example is it's, it's a literal example of those transitions we were just talking about and, and I, I brief this.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And I actually used this Korean War example of the F-86 and the MiG-15. I had totally forgotten it was in this book.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I completely forgot this example was used in the 1-3. And it says almost the exact same thing.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And if I only had a thing that Klein f- and they spent all this time thinking about what it is that they can't do, instead of recognizing, hey,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Alright, what are our strengths? What are our advantages here? And what do we need to do to build a plan that leverages those strengths?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You can actually outperform people in a way that doesn't seem to be evident to them. If they aren't the one, I got a better machine. Why do I need to worry about my transitions? I do this better than you. That's a huge disadvantage for them that they don't even realize.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And if you spend less time worrying about, hey, what, what, what's wrong with the things that I have? And think about, what are my advantages? Small companies?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The strength of the story is a recognition of there were things at that airplane.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That you would not pay attention to that were vastly better than the enemy and instead of spending all this time thinking about what we don't do well is build a plan around your strengths and then outmaneuver them. Meaning maneuver more quickly. Maybe you're not doing it, maybe your turn isn't as fast, your climb isn't as fast and watch them react.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] They're reacting to your first move when you're on move number three. When they're reacting to your second move, you're on move number seven.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Our equipment is better, that's why we win. That is not why we win. As a matter of fact, if your plan is to just leverage the better equipment, you're going to lose because you know what your enemy is doing right now?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] They dominate. They dominate. They dominate. When you are not detached, the only thing that is in focus is the one thing you're looking at.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And everything else is blurry. It literally is, you don't see those other things. And those are all the other things happening around you that you actually need to be reacting to.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That idea of seeing better, and I've spent a lot of my time thinking about what this means in the private sector now is...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Even how you measure success, you talked about being paranoid just a minute ago about what a good leader in a good organization, what they're paranoid about. The way we measure success is...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Revenue. There's a whole bunch of ways we have this objective measurement. We're making more money than we did. We're growing. What a really good leader is actually doing is, what's happening? Where are we going to be in three years?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] My vision isn't just the next quarter, my vision is the things that I'm doing, and you have to actually pay attention to what your competition, now you don't spend all your, 100% of your time in your competition, but you're paying attention to, and your vision is actually the farthest downrange as it can possibly be.


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[Assistant] Because if we think quarter to quarter and sometimes we even sometimes think year to year and these big companies we work with, this long game, this long plan is recognizing what we're doing now.


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[Assistant] All the time. You ask that question to the muster, when should we be thinking strategically? People are like, well maybe.


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[Assistant] All the time, and it's that vision of looking of, if you don't have an idea of where you're going to be down the road, you're never going to get to where you need to be. And it's the same story of, hey, the wind was, we took this hill. Okay.


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[Assistant] That vision isn't always just literal vision, it's actually where is this organization going to go? Because when you're inside and you're a tactical guy, like most of your employees are doing tactical things, they don't see that.


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[Assistant] They don't see the vision and if you can't impart that on them and let them understand what the vision is,


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[Assistant] They're going to drive you in the wrong direction, not because they're careless, not because they simply don't see it. Uhm, and for a leader to be able to see it and articulate, that's really...


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[Assistant] You know, this thing came out of airplane against airplane. It's that MiG F-86 story. The Marine Corps saw this.


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[Assistant] And the entire maneuver warfare concept for the Marine Corps came from this guy, which is incredible to think about, but it's that same we're a numerically inferior force with relatively limited loss.


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[Assistant] Can outperform and overwhelm a massively inferior enemy. A massively superior size enemy. Which is, which is amazing, just based on speed of maneuver.


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[Assistant] And initially when we were talking about some of the frustration of junior leaders in the organization, mid-level managers, maybe supervisors, they get really frustrated that their senior leadership doesn't understand what's going on and they can't


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[Assistant] Let's, let's, let's think about that for a second. Do you want your bosses coming down here to your world and actually


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Applying solutions to your problems and they stop and they look, no, no, I don't, I don't want that. Like why don't you want them doing that? And inevitably what they come down to is that,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] They don't have every single minute of every single day of all the context you have of the problem you're dealing with and no matter what they do, it's gonna be wrong because they don't understand it as well as you do.


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[Assistant] And then leave me alone because I can actually do that better. And then if you reverse that with the senior leaders, like the same thing is they don't want to be down there because it takes them away from all these other things. And really all is required is for the leader to have the vision and the subordinate leader to understand what are we trying to get done.


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[Assistant] What also goes to show and prove why you can't do decentri- you can't do this thing, this fourth law of combat.


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[Assistant] That's the strength of your relationship with these people. It's how well they know you, it's how much they trust you, it's how much you understand them and, and it's how strong that first rule is, is what allows you to do this thing that actually if you kind of think about it in some, some terms,


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[Assistant] But no matter what you do, if you don't have the beginning, if you don't have the foundation, if you don't have a good relationship, you can never do this.


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[Assistant] You can never have implied communication because I'll never really understand what it means if I haven't.


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[Assistant] Well that's great, but if you don't have a good enough relationship with your people, it won't work.


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[Assistant] It's such a small list, it would really, it would really boil down to...


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[Assistant] Overarching SOPs that, hey, these are just some big foundational things that we do. It would have to be something like, I'm leaving a location that everybody probably thinks I shouldn't.


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[Assistant] This is what's happening, this is a critical decision, maybe then. But the reality is, is the question you're asking me, I'm thinking.


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[Assistant] I don't even know if I have a good example where I would have to defer to the chain of command given how limited my time.


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[Assistant] You know, you're on minutes. You have, and so if I spend 10 minutes trying to work this answer out, that's probably all the time I actually really had to go execute anyway. So the answer to the question is,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Ask the boss who's somewhere else, can I go do this?