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[Assistant] I was going to offer the Riverlands to Cao Cao, but who knew he would treat me with such contempt?


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[Assistant] Before I came on this mission, I had bragged in front of my lord Liu Zhang.


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[Assistant] But now, I am returning in disgrace and empty handed.


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[Assistant] That will surely make me a butt of jokes in Shu.


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[Assistant] As he was lamenting how Cao Cao dared to get angry at someone who was repeatedly scorning him, a thought occurred to Jiang Song.


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[Assistant] I have long heard about the immense humanity and honor of Liu Bei in Jing province.


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[Assistant] Why don't I take that route back and check him out and then act accordingly?


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[Assistant] So Jiang Zong and his attendants headed toward the borders of Jing province. As he neared the border, he was met by a squad of about 500 riders led by a general who was lightly equipped and wore no armor.


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[Assistant] Could our visitor be Lieutenant Inspector Jiang Song? The general asked as he rode forward. Indeed I am, Jiang Song replied.


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[Assistant] At this, the general quickly dismounted and said,


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[Assistant] Yes, my lord Liu Bei ordered me to welcome you with wine and food to help relieve the fatigue from your long journey.


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[Assistant] As Zhao Yun spoke, a couple of his men kneeled and held up said food and wine, and Zhao Yun offered them to Zhang Song. This gesture greatly impressed their guest.


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[Assistant] Everyone says Liu Bei is magnanimous and hospitable, Jiang Sun thought to himself. Looks like that is indeed the case.


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[Assistant] So Zhang Song drank a few cups with Zhao Yun, and then they hopped back on their horses and continued to the borders of Jing province. It was getting late, so they went directly to a guest house. Outside the house stood about a hundred people who banged drums to welcome their honored guest. Another general dismounted and bowed. Sir.


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[Assistant] My brother has ordered me, Guan Yu, to welcome you and prepare this house for you to rest from your journey.


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[Assistant] So, Zhang Song entered the house accompanied by Guan Yu and Zhao Yun.


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[Assistant] Shortly after they sat down, a feast commenced. The two generals were very good hosts, urging Zhang Song to enjoy himself. They drank late into the night before retiring.


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[Assistant] After breakfast the next morning, the group got back on the road.


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[Assistant] But, they had not gone but a mile or so before they were met by another welcome party.


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[Assistant] This one was led by none other than Liu Bei, who was accompanied by Master Sleeping Dragon and Master Young Phoenix. When Liu Bei saw Zhang Song from a distance, he quickly dismounted and stood in attendance. Zhang Song hurriedly dismounted as well to greet him.


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[Assistant] Your great name has long been echoing in my ears like thunder, Liu Bei said.


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[Assistant] My only regret is that we were too far apart and I could not seek your instruction.


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[Assistant] I heard that you were on your way home, so I came to meet you here.


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[Assistant] If it is not too far beneath you, please take a brief rest in my barren province so that I may fulfill my lifelong wish. It would be my great fortune.


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[Assistant] Well, since you put it that way, I guess Jiang Song can take a few hours out of his busy schedule to make time for Liu Bei.


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[Assistant] So Zhang Song followed Liu Bei and company into the city and went to the main hall of the administrative compound. There, they exchanged the usual courtesies, followed, of course, by the requisite banquet.


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[Assistant] While they drank, Liu Bei just made small talk and said nothing about the river lands. After a while, Zhang Song just couldn't take the suspense anymore and tried to steer the conversation that way. Imperial uncle, he asked.


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[Assistant] Aside from Jiang Province, how many other districts do you control? Zhu Ge Liang chimed in and answered.


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[Assistant] Jing province is just on loan from Dongwu, and they keep bugging us to return it.


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[Assistant] It is only because my lord is Dongwu's son-in-law that he is allowed to temporarily stay here.


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[Assistant] But Dongwu controls six districts in 81 regions. Their people are strong and their state wealthy. How can they thirst for more? Zhang Song said.


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[Assistant] Master Young Phoenix, aka Pang Teng, now joined in.


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[Assistant] Hm. My master, the Imperial Uncle, has no land to his name. And yet, those greedy traitors can all seize territory on power alone.


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[Assistant] Good sirs, do not speak thusly, he said.


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[Assistant] Your lordship is a member of the Imperial House, and your humanity and honor reach far and wide. It would not be out of line for you to inherit the throne, much less take some land.


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[Assistant] Sir, you give me far too much credit, Liu Bei answered.


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[Assistant] So everyone is just kind of beating around the bush here. To see how long it will take for them to actually start speaking plainly, tune in to the next episode of the Romance of the Three Kingdoms podcast. Thanks for listening.


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[Assistant] Welcome to the Romance of the Three Kingdoms Podcast. This is episode 70.


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[Assistant] Last time, Zhou Yu, in another bid to take back Jing province, had told Liu Bei and Zhu Ge Liang that he would lead the forces of Dongwu to go take the river lands to the west and trade that for Jing province.


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[Assistant] All he asked from them was to come welcome his troops and give them some provisions when they passed through Jing province on their way.


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[Assistant] His real intent, though, was to use that opportunity to kill Liu Bei and take Jing Province.


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[Assistant] But, when Zhou Yu and his men arrived at the foot of the city,


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[Assistant] They discovered that Zhuge Liang was not fooled for a second.


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[Assistant] The gates of the city were shut, and four detachments of Liu Bei's troops were closing in, shouting that they were out to capture Zhou Yu alive.


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[Assistant] This turn of events re-aggravated Zhou Yu's old arrow wound, and he let out a loud cry and fell off his horse. His men quickly scooped him up and hustled him back to their ships and hightailed it out of there.


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[Assistant] Just then, to add insult to injury, word came through the ranks that Liu Bei and Zhu Ge Liang were sitting atop a hill up ahead, having a drink and enjoying themselves immensely. This made Zhou Yu gnash his teeth.


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[Assistant] You think I can't take the Riverlands? I swear, I will do just that.


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[Assistant] Just as he was seething, his men told him that Sun Quan's younger brother, Sun Yu had arrived.


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[Assistant] Zhou Yu welcomed him in and told him what had transpired.


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[Assistant] Sun Yu told him that he was there on Sun Quan's orders to lend a hand. So they ordered their troops to press on ahead.


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[Assistant] But they had not gone far when word came that two of Liu Bei's officers, Liu Feng and Guan Ping, had blockaded the river up ahead.


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[Assistant] This provided even more aggravation for jiuyu. But this was not the end of it.


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[Assistant] Just then, a messenger arrived bearing a letter from Zhuge Liang, and the letter said,


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[Assistant] From Zhu Ge Liang, the Director General of the Han and Imperial Corps Commanders.


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[Assistant] To Master Zhou Yu, Chief Commander of Dongwu. Since our parting at Chaisang, I have missed you immensely. I heard that you intend to conquer the riverlands. But, in my poor opinion, you must not attempt this. The people of Yi province are sturdy, and its terrain treacherous. Even though Liu Zhang is feeble, he has enough to defend himself.


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[Assistant] Now your army has embarked on a long campaign.


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[Assistant] and it will face many uncertainties before securing total victory


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[Assistant] Even the greatest military strategists of old would not be able to guarantee the outcome. After his defeat at Red Cliff,


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[Assistant] How can Cao Cao have ever given up thoughts of revenge? With you going off on a distant campaign, if Cao Cao takes this opportunity to attack, the Southlands would be reduced to dust.


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[Assistant] I cannot bear to sit by and watch, so I have written you this note, which I hope you will favor with your attention.


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[Assistant] When Zhou Yu finished reading the letter, he let out a long sigh and told his men to fetch brush and ink so he could write a letter to Sun Quan.


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[Assistant] The letter written he assembled his officers and told them.


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[Assistant] It's not that I don't want to do everything I can to repay our state, but my time on Earth ends here. You all must serve our Lord well and accomplish our grand enterprise.


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[Assistant] He repeated this many times, and then he died. Zhou Yu was just 36 at the time. A poem later remembered him thus. Glory had crowned this hero since Redcliffe, from earliest years hailed a champion.


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[Assistant] In lute set song, he showed his sense of grace.


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[Assistant] With cup in hand, he bade his friend farewell.


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[Assistant] 3,000 bushels from Lusu he once begged.


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[Assistant] Now Zhou Yu's final resting place still draws men who mourn in heartfelt grief.


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[Assistant] With their commander dead, the Dongwu forces stopped at Baqiu and sent Jiuyu's final letter to Sun Quan.


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[Assistant] When Sun Quan heard that Jiuyu had died, he wept out loud.


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[Assistant] Sun Quan then opened Jiuyu's letter and it said,


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[Assistant] Despite my commonplace skills, I was favored with your confidence and command of your troops. Could I then do any less than strain with every fiber of my being to repay your kindness?


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[Assistant] Alas, the date of our death is never known in advance, and the duration of our lives is always predestined.


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[Assistant] That my body should succumb before my humble will has produced more fruit overwhelms me with remorse.


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[Assistant] Right now, Cao Cao resides in the north, and that front is not yet settled. Liu Bei lurks in our land like a tiger being reared. The outcome remains unknown.


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[Assistant] It is imperative that all members of our court remain vigilant and our sovereign exercises careful judgment.


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[Assistant] Lu Su is fiercely loyal, serious and dedicated in all things. He may replace me. They say that a dying man's words are his best. If these words receive your consideration, then I have not died in vain.


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[Assistant] The letter brought more tears to Sun Quan's eyes. Zhou Yu had the talent to advise kings, but he has died young. Whom shall I lean on now?


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[Assistant] Since his last will suggested that Lu Su should succeed him, I dare not disobey.


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[Assistant] So Sun Quan sent out word for Zhou Yu's body to be transported back to Chaisang for burial.


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[Assistant] And he immediately promoted Liu Su to Chief Commander of the Army. So yup.


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[Assistant] Lu Si, the lovable, good-natured, kind-hearted, slow-witted, sidekick, and butt of jokes, is now in charge of Dongwu's troops. Heaven help us. While Dongwu was mourning Zhou Yu,


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[Assistant] Zhuge Liang was observing the night sky in Jing Province.


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[Assistant] When he noticed a general star crashing to the earth, he smiled and said, Zhou Yu is dead. The next morning, he reported this to Liu Bei.


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[Assistant] Liu Bei sent out some spies, and they confirmed the news.


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[Assistant] With Zhou Yu dead, now what? Liu Bei asked.


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[Assistant] Many general stars are clustered in the sky to the east. I would like to go to the southlands, officially to mourn Zhou Yu.


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[Assistant] But unofficially, to search out capable men to help your lordship.


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[Assistant] But Dong Wu's officers might want to kill you, Liu Bei said. And that was definitely a legitimate concern. Even when Zhou Yu was alive, I was not afraid.


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[Assistant] So what do I have to worry about now that he is dead? Zhuge Liang said.


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[Assistant] So he told General Zhao Yun to accompany him with 500 soldiers.


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[Assistant] Prepare some morning gifts and a boarded ship to Baqiu.


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[Assistant] Along the way, they got word that Sun Quan had indeed promoted Liu Su to take Jiu Yu's office, and that Jiu Yu's body had been returned to Chai Sang, so Zhu Ge Liang headed to Chai Sang instead.


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[Assistant] When he got there, Lu Su welcomed him with all the proper courtesies.


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[Assistant] Many of the officers who had served under Zhou Yu indeed wanted to kill Zhu Ge Liang, but


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[Assistant] With Zhao Yun following him everywhere with a sword in tow, no one dared to make a move.


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[Assistant] And now, Zhu Ge Liang proceeded to put on one of his finest theatrical displays.


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[Assistant] He instructed his men to place their morning gifts in front of Zhou Yu's altar.


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[Assistant] He then personally offered up wine, kneeled on the ground, and read the following eulogy.


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[Assistant] And keep in mind, in the original Chinese, this whole thing was written in four character lines with rhyme and meter, so it was even more poetic than this translated version. Alas, my friend, woefully fallen in your prime.


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[Assistant] Heaven numbers our days and leaves man to grief.


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[Assistant] Heartbroken, I spill this flask of wine. May your spirit savor the libation. I pay homage to your youth.


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[Assistant] Remembering your deep friendship with Sun Ce.


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[Assistant] You stood for honor and disdained wealth and your home to Him you did offer.


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[Assistant] I pay homage to your early manhood when you flexed your wings like the storm embracing rocks.


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[Assistant] Building a new strong state, taking control of the South.


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[Assistant] I pay homage to your mature years when the fullness of your powers reached Baqiu.


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[Assistant] Making 刘表 an easy spelling relief for your lord.


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[Assistant] I pay homage to your style and dignity. When you took the younger Lady Qiao to wife, son-in-law to a Han minister, you did justice to the court.


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[Assistant] I pay homage to your bold spirit when you argued against tributes for Cao Cao.


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[Assistant] Your wings never lowered in submission, and in the end, they flapped even stronger.


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[Assistant] I pay homage to your conduct at Boyang.


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[Assistant] When Jiang Gan tried your loyalty to persuade, self-possession, superb character, lofty ideals, these were all on display.


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[Assistant] I pay homage to your talents, your administration, and your strategies, breaking the foe with fire, leading the weak to subdue the strong.


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[Assistant] I think back to that time, your dashing mean and brilliance. I weep for your untimely demise, head bowed, heart sore. Loyal and honorable of mind, noble in spirit, a life of three twelve year spans, a name for a hundred ages.


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[Assistant] I mourn, distraught, my insides knotted with grief, While a heart beats within me, this sorrow will not end.


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[Assistant] Heaven darkens over. The army blanches with despair. Your lord mourns. Your friends pour out their hearts.


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[Assistant] I have no talent, yet you assault my council. We aided the Southlands against Cao Cao. We supported the Han and its rightful rulers.


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[Assistant] With you as the perfect cornerstone and your perfect dispositions, what did we have to fear? What cause had we for vexations?


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[Assistant] Alas, my friend, the living and dead can never meet.


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[Assistant] With simple devotion, you preserve your integrity and it will survive the midst of death and time. If the dead can discern the thoughts of the living,


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[Assistant] When he was done eulogizing his buddy, Zhu Ge Liang threw himself on the ground and wept out loud. Tears of unrestrained grief gushed out like a fountain. When they saw this, the officers of the Southlands remarked to each other, People always said that Zhou Yu and Zhu Ge Liang were enemies, but watching him deliver this eulogy, that must have been a lie.


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[Assistant] When Lu Su saw how grief-stricken Zhuge Liang was, he could not help but feel sadness as well.


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[Assistant] Zhuge Liang is a man of such deep feelings, he thought to himself.


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[Assistant] Zhou Yu was too narrow-minded and brought about his own demise.


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[Assistant] And when Zhou Yu saw Zhu Ge Liang's display in front of his altar, he was no doubt spinning in his casket. Talk about one final slap in the face.


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[Assistant] In any case, after the ceremonies, Lu Su held a banquet to thank Zhu Ge Liang.


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[Assistant] After which, Zhu Ge Liang took his leave and returned to his ship.


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[Assistant] Just as he was about to get on board, a man wearing a Taoist robe, a bamboo leaf hat, a black sash of plated silk and plain sandals grabbed him with one hand and laughed. Hmph.


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[Assistant] You drove Zhou Yu to his death, and now you dare to come eulogize him?


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[Assistant] You must think Deng Wu has no men of talent.


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[Assistant] Zhu Ge Liang turned to see who this was, and immediately started laughing as well. It was none other than his old friend,


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[Assistant] AKA, the young phoenix to Zhuge Liang's sleeping dragon.


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[Assistant] The two of them took each other by the hand and went aboard Zhuge Liang's ship to catch up.


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[Assistant] At the end of their conversation, Zhu Ge Liang wrote a letter and handed it to Pang Teng.


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[Assistant] I expect that Sun Quan would not make good use of your talents, Zhuge Liang said to his friend. If you are dissatisfied,


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[Assistant] You can come to Jing province and serve luoliu with me.


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[Assistant] He is kind, honorable, generous, and virtuous, and he will put your vast learning to good use.


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[Assistant] After that, the two friends parted ways, and Zhu Ge Liang returned to Zheng Province. Before we get to Pang Teng,


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[Assistant] Let's first lay Zhou Yu to rest, literally. Lu Su escorted his coffin back to Wu Hu, where a tearful Sun Quan received them and wept in front of the casket.


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[Assistant] Sun Quan then ordered that Zhou Yu be buried with high honors in his native village. Sun Quan also provided handsomely for Zhou Yu's two sons and one daughter. After those arrangements were taken care of, Lu Su said to Sun Quan, I am a man of middling abilities. Zhou Yu's recommendation of me is misguided. I am not worthy of my position.


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[Assistant] I would like to recommend someone to assist your lordship.


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[Assistant] He is well versed in the ways of heaven and earth.


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[Assistant] His plans and strategies rival the greatest advisors of history.


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[Assistant] Zhou Yu often took his advice, and even Zhuge Liang respects his knowledge.


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[Assistant] He is currently residing in the Southlands, so you should give him an important office.


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[Assistant] Sun Quan was delighted and asked whom Lu Su was referring to. He is from Xiangyang and his name is Pang Tong. His nickname is Master Young Phoenix. I have long heard of him as well, Sun Quan said.


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[Assistant] Since he is here, please ask him to come see me. So Lu Su brought Pang Tong in to see Sun Quan.


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[Assistant] Now, unlike other wunderkinds like Zhuge Liang or Zhou Yu, Pang Teng was not much of a looker.


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[Assistant] In fact, he had a rather peculiar appearance. He had bushy eyebrows, a tilted nose, a dark complexion and a short beard.


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[Assistant] One look at him, and Sun Quan was already a little put off. Sir.


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[Assistant] What have your studies focused on? Sun Quan asked. Oh, I stick to no particular subject, Pang Tong answered. I adapt with the circumstances. How does your knowledge compare to Zhou Yu's?


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[Assistant] And Sun Quan did not appreciate the subtle put-down of the man he had so trusted.


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[Assistant] So he basically told young phoenix, don't call us, we'll call you.


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[Assistant] Thus snubbed, Pang Tong let out a long sigh and took his leave. After Pang Tong left,


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[Assistant] Lusu asked Sun Quan why he did not give Pang Tong a job.


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[Assistant] He's an insolent scholar. What's the benefit of using him? But when we fought at Red Cliff,


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[Assistant] He was the one that devised the scheme of tricking Cao Cao into tying his ships together, Lu Su said. His merit ranks among the highest. That was just Cao Cao's own doing, not necessarily Pang Tong's work, Sun Quan said. I vow that I will never use him. Lu Su had no choice but to leave. He found Pang Tong and told him, It's not that I did not recommend you.


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[Assistant] But my lord refuses your service. Please be patient.


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[Assistant] But Pang Tung simply hanged his head and let out a long sigh. Sir, are you thinking of leaving Dongwu? Lu Su asked. Pang Tung gave no answer.


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[Assistant] With your talent, you would succeed no matter where you are.


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[Assistant] So please, tell me where you intend to go. I want to go serve Cao Cao, Pang Tong said.


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[Assistant] That would be like throwing a bright pearl into an abyss, Luxu objected.


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[Assistant] You should go to Jing province to serve Imperial Uncle Liu Bei. He would no doubt make good use of your skills. That's actually my real intention.


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[Assistant] I was merely teasing you just now, Peng Tung told him.


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[Assistant] I will write a letter recommending you, Lu Su said, when you are in the service of Lord Liu.


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[Assistant] You must help maintain the peace between our two sides so that we may join forces against Cao Cao.


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[Assistant] That is my life's ambition, Pang Tong told him. So Lu Su wrote him the recommendation letter, and Pang Tong set off for Jing Province.


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[Assistant] When he arrived at Jing province, Zhu Ge Liang happened to be away on an inspection tour.


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[Assistant] The guards at the door told Liu Bei that Pang Tong was there to offer his service, and since he had long heard of Pang Tong's name, Liu Bei immediately received him. But when Pang Tong came in,


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[Assistant] Instead of the customary greeting of prostrating on the ground, he merely gave a low bow to Liu Bei. So he was already getting off on the wrong foot. And when Liu Bei took one look at his face, he had the same reaction that Sun Quan did.


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[Assistant] Your long trip here must have been difficult, Liu Bei said.


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[Assistant] So at this moment, Pang Tong had on him not one, but two letters of recommendation. One from Liu Su, and the other from Zhu Ge Liang.


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[Assistant] Either one of these would have likely landed him a nice position in Liu Bei's operation right away.


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[Assistant] But instead of showing the letters, Pang Tong simply replied, I heard that your lordship is recruiting talented men, so I have come to join you. Alas.


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[Assistant] Jing province has just recently been stabilized, and there are not many positions available, Liu Bei told him. About 40 miles from here, there's a county that needs a prefect.


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[Assistant] Might I ask you to subjugate yourself to that post for now? When another position opens up, I will definitely call on you.


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[Assistant] So what Liu Bei just did was basically the equivalent of offering a CEO caliber talent, a job, in the mailroom. And Pang Tong was a little miffed by this.


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[Assistant] He thought about showing off his knowledge on the spot.


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[Assistant] But, seeing that Zhuge Liang was knocked around, he decided...


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[Assistant] Okay, fine. I'll go sort mail for a little while and show you.


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[Assistant] So, he went to take his office as the prefect of the podunk little county.


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[Assistant] Now, you might think that he would be inclined to do a kick-ass job to show Liu Bei his skills, but instead,


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[Assistant] Pang Tong ignored all business and wild away his days with wine and merrymaking.


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[Assistant] When word of this got back to Liu Bei, he was incensed.


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[Assistant] How dare that pedant flout my administration, he said. To remedy the situation, Liu Bei decided to send in his brother Jiang Fei.


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[Assistant] He told Zhang Fei to go inspect the counties in that part of the province and told him that if he found anyone who was flouting the law, then he should look into the matter and dole out punishment on the spot.


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[Assistant] But, of course, Zhang Fei was not exactly well-versed in the matters of administration.


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[Assistant] So Liu Bei sent the advisor Sun Qian with him.


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[Assistant] So Zhang Fei and Sun Qian headed to Pangtong's county. All the officials came out to welcome them. All that is, except the county prefect.


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[Assistant] When Zhang Fei asked where the prefect was, someone told him,


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[Assistant] Prefect Pang has been in office for a hundred some days, but he has not tended to any business. He just spends all day drinking by himself late into the night. He is still passed out drunk in bed right now.


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[Assistant] Zhang Fei was irate when he heard this and wanted to go and arrest Pang Tong right away, but Sun Qian checked him.


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[Assistant] Zhang Fei sat down in the main hall where all business was typically conducted and demanded to see the prefect. Moments later, out came Pang Teng, looking disheveled and a little tipsy.


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[Assistant] My brother thought that you were a talented man, so he appointed you to be the prefect here. Zhang Fei said angrily.


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[Assistant] How dare you neglect the affairs of the county! What business have I neglected, General? Pangtong asked with a smile.


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[Assistant] You have been in office for more than a hundred days, yet you spend all day in a drunken stupor. How is that not negligence?


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[Assistant] At a podunk county like this, how much petty business could there be?


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[Assistant] General, have a seat and watch me take care of it all.


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[Assistant] So Pangtong immediately summoned his staff and told them to bring forth all the cases that had piled up over the last hundred days or so.


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[Assistant] Deciding right and wrong in each case with uncanny precision.


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[Assistant] All the people kowtow to him to show their reverence for his wisdom.


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[Assistant] Within half a day, all the cases that had accumulated since Pang Teng took office were done.


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[Assistant] Pangtung tossed his brush to the ground and said to Jiangfei,


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[Assistant] So, what was that about neglecting business?


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[Assistant] I see Cao Cao and Sun Quan as an open book.


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[Assistant] So what's the big deal about a little county like this?


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[Assistant] While I'm sure all the people of the county appreciated Pang Tong letting their court cases languish for three months just to make a point,


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[Assistant] Zhang Fei was stunned by young Phoenix's brilliance and immediately stood up and said, Sir, you are a great talent.


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[Assistant] Forgive my offense. I shall sing your praises to my brother.


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[Assistant] Only now did Pang Tong produce the recommendation letter that Liu Su had written.


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[Assistant] Why did you not show this to my brother when you saw him? If I did,


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[Assistant] It would have looked like I was relying solely on the recommendation to beg for a job, Pang Tong said. Zhang Fei now turned to Sun Qian and said to him,


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[Assistant] So they took leave of Pangtung and returned to Jing province.


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[Assistant] Where Zhang Fei promptly praised Pang Teng to the heavens in front of Liu Bei.


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[Assistant] It is my fault that we have mistreated a great talent like this. A stunned Liu Bei said.


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[Assistant] Zhang Fei then handed over Liu Su's recommendation letter, which said,


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[Assistant] Pang Tong has too much talent for petty administration.


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[Assistant] He should be assigned to government documents or made an assistant to a governor. Then he will display his powers. If you judge him by his appearance, you run the risk of ignoring his knowledge and he will end up in another's service. And that would be a great pity.


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[Assistant] While Liu Bei was beating himself up for doing exactly what Lu Su had cautioned him to not do, Zhu Ge Liang returned from his inspection tour. When he came in, Zhu Ge Liang inquired, How has Master Pang Tong been doing? I sent him to administer a small county.


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[Assistant] And he's been drinking and neglecting business, Liu Bei answered.


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[Assistant] Pang Tong is not one for petty administration. His knowledge is ten times mine. I gave him a recommendation letter. Did he show it to you? I just got Lu Su's recommendation letter today, but I have not seen yours.


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[Assistant] When a great talent is misplaced in a petty role,


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[Assistant] He will tend to lose himself in wine and neglect his tasks, Zhuge Liang said.


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[Assistant] If not for Brother Zhang, I would have almost lost a great talent, Liu Bei told him.


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[Assistant] So Liu Bei sent Zhang Fei to go fetch Pang Teng and bring him back to Jing Province, where Liu Bei stepped down from his seat to welcome him and apologize.


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[Assistant] Only now did Pang Tong produce the letter that Ju Ge Liang had written.


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[Assistant] The House of Han will most assuredly be reinvigorated.


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[Assistant] So, nice big fat promotion from County Prefect.


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[Assistant] To Deputy Director General and Imperial Corps Commander


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[Assistant] Which meant that he and Zhuge Liang were essentially partners in making all strategic decisions and preparing the army for battle.


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[Assistant] Word soon reached the capital Xuchang that Liu Bei now had Zhuge Liang and Pang Tong as his strategists, and that he had been recruiting troops, buying horses, stockpiling provisions, and building an alliance with Dongwu. It looked like it was a matter of when.


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[Assistant] Not if he was going to launch a northern expedition.


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[Assistant] When Cao Cao heard this, he assembled his strategist to discuss a preemptive strike against the South.


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[Assistant] I am worried that Ma Teng would attack the capital, Cao Cao said. When we were previously at Red Cliff, there were rumors of exactly that happening. We must guard against it.


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[Assistant] In my humble opinion, we should send out an imperial edict.


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[Assistant] We can use that pretext to lure Ma Teng to the capital and eliminate him.


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[Assistant] Then we can march south without any lingering concerns.


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[Assistant] To see whether Ma Teng falls for this trick, tune in to the next episode of the Romance of the Three Kingdoms podcast. Thanks for listening.


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[Assistant] Welcome to the Romance of the Three Kingdoms podcast, 100th episode extravaganza.


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[Assistant] Yes I know, we're only at episode 92 in the narrative.


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[Assistant] But counting the seven supplemental episodes I've done, this is the 100th episode since we began our podcast journey through the Romance of the Three Kingdoms. And I know I've said this before, but


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[Assistant] Thank you all for your support of this podcast. Knowing that more and more people are checking out the show and discovering the novel through it is a huge part of what keeps me doing this. I love all the comments you've sent, so keep them coming.


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[Assistant] With the podcast celebrating its 100th episode, I figure that this is as good a time as any to pause the narrative for a day and mark the occasion with a question and answer session.


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[Assistant] A number of you have sent in questions, to which I have some long-winded answers, as the length of this episode suggests. So let's get to it.


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[Assistant] Listener Kyle asked, and I'm paraphrasing a little bit here, what happens after the Three Kingdoms period?


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[Assistant] To answer this question without giving away too many spoilers for those of you who don't know how the novel ends,


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[Assistant] I'm going to refrain from talking about how the Three Kingdoms period ended, or who ultimately came out on top, and just focus on what happened afterward.


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[Assistant] The Three Kingdoms period officially ended in the year 280.


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[Assistant] Almost a hundred years after when the novel began.


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[Assistant] And the empire was reconsolidated under the rule of the Jin dynasty.


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[Assistant] However, the Jin was not one of the more long-lasting dynasties in Chinese history. It had problems from the beginning. The government was corrupt.


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[Assistant] And its ranks were filled with officials who received their positions because they were close to the ruling family.


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[Assistant] The founding emperor of the Jin dynasty more or less just inherited his enterprise so he wasn't someone who had to fight for everything he got, like a Cao Cao or Liu Bei.


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[Assistant] He listened to sycophants and was way too fond of women. In fact, he actually banned everyone in the empire from getting married for a whole year so that he could have his pick of all the pretty young girls in the realm for his palace.


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[Assistant] When things were this bad at the top, you can imagine how that trickled down through the ranks.


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[Assistant] Truly, the entire governing apparatus was just rotting from the inside out.


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[Assistant] Things got worse when this founding emperor died.


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[Assistant] He only had one living son, so he named that son the heir apparent. However, the son had a developmental disability and really was not up to the task of governing.


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[Assistant] The founding emperor tried to address this by placing his son in the hands of a trusted regent.


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[Assistant] But as soon as the founding emperor breathed his last in the year 290, 10 years after the empire was reunited, things started to hit the fan.


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[Assistant] The new emperor, the one with the developmental disability, quickly became a mere puppet, and his 17-year reign was marked by one power struggle after another between various factions vying to play the puppeteer.


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[Assistant] One of those factions was his wife, who lived up to every wicked female trope in Chinese history and literature, as she viciously schemed to gain power and medal in court politics.


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[Assistant] A year into the new emperor's reign, the regent his father had appointed had been ousted and killed by the Empress.


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[Assistant] But that just marked the start of the unrest. For the next 15 years, the empire would be plagued by one violent internal struggle after another as various members of the royal family rose up in rebellion to overthrow their rivals and gain control of the puppet emperor.


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[Assistant] This period was called the Disorder of the Eight Princes. Now don't let that name fool you. There were way more than just eight princes of the royal family involved. It's just that there were eight main guys.


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[Assistant] Also, this wasn't one giant war where all the princes went at each other at the same time.


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[Assistant] And it was not one continuous conflict that lasted 15 years. Instead, it was periods of clashes interspersed with brief respites of uneasy peace.


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[Assistant] The disorder of the eight princes did not kill the empire, but it did greatly weaken it, and that led to the thing that did kill the empire, uprisings by groups of various ethnic minorities. Beginning in the late Eastern Han dynasty,


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[Assistant] Nomadic tribes from the north had been gradually migrating south into the lands around the Yellow River.


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[Assistant] During the chaos of the Jin Dynasty's internal power struggles, many of the royal princes enlisted these nomadic tribes into their own military. But when the cracks began to show in the Jin,


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[Assistant] The nomadic tribes saw an opening to declare their independence and grab a chunk of the empire for themselves.


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[Assistant] The first two such instances came in the year 304. The Jin court was pretty ineffective in its attempts to put down these uprisings, and in 311, one of these rogue kingdoms actually captured the Jin capital city of Luoyang, along with the emperor. But the Jin did not officially die there, as many of the court officials fled the capital, and they then elevated another emperor. Five years later, however,


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[Assistant] This new emperor was captured, ending the Jin dynasty, or at least the Western Jin dynasty. Yup.


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[Assistant] The time period we've covered up to this point is referred to as the Western gene, which implies that there was an Eastern gene somewhere.


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[Assistant] This continuation of the House of Jin was led by a member of the royal clan who, a decade earlier, had seen which way the wind was blowing, and decided to go off to the southern city of Jiankang, or present-day Nanjing.


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[Assistant] To build up his enterprise under the official pretext of trying to pacify the region


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[Assistant] He won over the local elite, and when word came in 316 that, oops, the house of Jin was no more,


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[Assistant] This guy said, hey wait a minute, I'm from the house of Jin and I'm still here. So the house lives on, just farther south and farther east. And so began the Eastern Jin dynasty.


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[Assistant] But the Eastern Jin had a limited sphere of influence, and it took this new dynasty a while to consolidate its control of the southern half of the empire.


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[Assistant] Meanwhile, the northwestern half of the empire, which was now in the hands of the former nomadic tribes, fractured as a series of 16 kingdoms rose and fell between the years 304 and 439.


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[Assistant] All this instability and warfare made life in the north pretty hellish, triggering several mass population migrations as civilians fled to the relative stability and calm of the south, to the eastern Jin.


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[Assistant] So the eastern gene did okay for about a century.


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[Assistant] But it ran into trouble in the early 400s, and in the year 420, a former court official of the Eastern Jin


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[Assistant] You served the throne and founded what is now referred to as the Liu Song dynasty. Twenty years later,


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[Assistant] We officially switch from the era of the 16 kingdoms and the Eastern Jin to the era of the Northern and Southern dynasties.


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[Assistant] During this new era, instead of the empire fracturing into a bazillion little kingdoms, we instead have, for the most part, two major kingdoms, one in the north and one in the south, hence the name for the period. What continued to change, however,


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[Assistant] Were the names of the kingdoms and the people in charge of them.


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[Assistant] Both the north and the south went through several regime changes until in the year 589, the northern kingdom of Sui managed to once again unite the empire. But this Sui dynasty was also short-lived.


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[Assistant] As it lasted less than 30 years, being succeeded by the Tang dynasty.


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[Assistant] Now, the Tang Dynasty managed to stick around for almost 300 years, so I think this is as good a place as any for us to stop. So, to recap,


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[Assistant] The unity that followed the Three Kingdoms period only really lasted for about a decade, making it more of a brief pit stop on the way to more disunity.


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[Assistant] To put that into context, the United States has been a country for all of 240 years, and during that time, it had only one true period of disunity, and that civil war lasted just five years.


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[Assistant] When I think about this nearly four century long period of disunity, a couple things strike me.


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[Assistant] One, if you were living toward the tail end of that period, could you even fathom China as one single unity? I mean, not only would you have not known a unified China in your lifetime, but there would have been no unified China in the lifetimes of your parents, grandparents, great grandparents,


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[Assistant] Great grandparents and so forth, going back generations.


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[Assistant] Second, the period of division that followed the Three Kingdoms were actually much longer than the Three Kingdoms period. The novel covers almost 100 years, but that's followed by nearly 300 more years of unrest.


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[Assistant] So it's kind of interesting that it's the Three Kingdoms period, and not the three centuries that followed it, that has so captured the imagination of the Chinese people.


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[Assistant] And I think that is a testament to the staying power of the people and the events of the three kingdoms.


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[Assistant] Why, yes indeed, Phil. I do plan to do more fact and fiction supplemental episodes. I'll do those as the novel progresses and more characters exit stage left. When we reach the end of the novel, my hope is to do some sort of look back and wrap up


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[Assistant] And as part of that, I would likely delve more into the major differences


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[Assistant] Between the novel and the actual historical period. So stay tuned.


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[Assistant] Next, listener Josh asks a fun question. Three fun questions actually.


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[Assistant] So first, if you could serve one character from the novel, who would it be? Second, is there any character from the novel that you would go back and save, or you would like to see how things would have played out differently if they had lived?


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[Assistant] And third, what character would you slay, or barring that, throw into prison or exile?


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[Assistant] So the first part of that, which character would I want to serve?


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[Assistant] If we're talking about the big three, Liu Bei, Cao Cao, and Sun Quan, I would say Sun Quan, and it would actually be a fairly easy call.


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[Assistant] Working for Cao Cao is just not the safest career path, since the guy shows no compunction about lopping off innocent heads when it suits him.


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[Assistant] I mean, look at the poor granary officer from episode 23.


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[Assistant] Cao Cao tells you to cut the soldier's daily rations because provisions are running low.


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[Assistant] You tell Cao Cao that, hey, the men would be up in arms about this.


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[Assistant] And Cao Cao says, do it anyway, and I'll take care of any repercussions.


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[Assistant] So you do it, and the men are, just as you predicted, up in arms. So how does Cao Cao take care of it?


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[Assistant] He scapegoats you and cuts off your head to appease the men. Talk about being thrown under the horse cart.


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[Assistant] Or how about the official in episode 59 who dared to criticize Cao Cao's poetry and ended up with a spear through his chest.


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[Assistant] Or how about episode 89, where after a failed coup, Cao Cao asked the court officials who among them had gone out during the chaos to put out the fire that was engulfing the city.


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[Assistant] And then he executed all those who raised their hands on the charge that they were actually trying to help the conspirators instead of putting out the fire.


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[Assistant] I don't know about you but I just can't work under those conditions.


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[Assistant] As for Liu Bei, it's true that he seems to treat his men very well, but I think eventually I would just grow disillusioned if I worked for him because of the blatant hypocrisy I would have to overlook.


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[Assistant] The guy puts himself forward as a man of honor and virtue.


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[Assistant] But he has a habit of turning against those who give him refuge. He tried to assassinate Cao Cao while in his service. He ditched Yuan Shao after using him for shelter from Cao Cao for a while. He was taken in by Liu Biao and then ended up taking over his territory.


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[Assistant] He got help from Sun Quan to fend off Cao Cao and quickly turned around and stole a few cities from Sun Quan.


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[Assistant] And of course, he was invited into the Riverlands by Liu Zhang, and we all know how that turned out.


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[Assistant] At every turn, Liu Bei was always portrayed as an honorable man unwilling to do what others kept telling him he should do. And yet, in the end, every time, what he supposedly did not want to do ended up getting done. Funny how that happens. So that leaves me with Sun Quan, and he seems like a pretty stable guy.


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[Assistant] Without the hypocrisy of Liu Bei and sans the unpredictability of Cao Cao,


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[Assistant] He is by all accounts a wise ruler, a good user of talent, and a lord who truly values his men.


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[Assistant] As evident in the way he honored General Zhou Tai.


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[Assistant] After Zhou Tai saved his butt in episode 87,


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[Assistant] Besides, the Southlands are beautiful, prosperous, a lot warmer than the Heartlands, and not as hot as the Riverlands. So yeaah, location, location, location.


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[Assistant] Now, if we're talking about anyone beyond the Big Three, then I would, without a second thought, go work for Liu Bei's General Zhao Yun. Not coincidentally.


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[Assistant] Here's also the answer to the question of who my favorite character is, which several listeners have asked.


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[Assistant] Zhao Yun is a smart, courageous and all-around kick-ass warrior.


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[Assistant] Capable of turning back entire armies by himself.


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[Assistant] Which means I can just hang back and watch him take care of business while I cheer him on from a safe distance.


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[Assistant] As much as I like the idea of working for a guy who seemingly always wins, and is by all accounts a genius, I think his management style would just drive me nuts after a while.


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[Assistant] The guy likes to play everything so close to the vest. He never fully explains any of his orders to you, even if they sound completely nuts. And when he gives you a tip, he puts it in a silk pouch and tells you you can't open it until this and this date.


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[Assistant] I just can't work with that sort of uncertainty. I like to have all the cards on the table.


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[Assistant] Now, as for whom I would want to save, I think the obvious answer would be Master Young Phoenix, Pang Tong.


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[Assistant] With the combined wisdom of Pang Tong and Zhu Ge Liang.


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[Assistant] I guess if I have to save another character, maybe I'll save Zhou Yu to see what Dongwu could do if it's almost as brilliant as Zhuge Liang, Commander, had lived another 20 or 30 years. But then again, the way things were going for Zhou Yu every time he matched wits with Zhuge Liang in the novel,


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[Assistant] I might just be subjecting the man to three more decades of aggravation and coughing up blood.


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[Assistant] As for the last question, whom I would want to slay or banish,


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[Assistant] There are some characters from the beginning of the novel that I would definitely not mind doing away with, like the ten Unix who are messing things up.


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[Assistant] Or He Jin, the idiot regent who feuded with the Unix and eventually was killed by them.


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[Assistant] Basically every person not named Liu Bei who conspired to assassinate Cao Cao.


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[Assistant] These guys were so inept that they either blabbed too much to too many people about their plot, which led to their being exposed, or they concocted such harebrained schemes that they set themselves up to fail miserably.


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[Assistant] Either way, every time one of these groups failed, not only did they get themselves and their families killed,


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[Assistant] But they also gave Cao Cao another excuse to purge more opponents at court and further tighten his grasp on power. So way to go, guys.


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[Assistant] The next question is a combination of several questions from multiple listeners who asked, essentially, about the significance of the Three Kingdoms stories in Chinese culture.


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[Assistant] How this historical era is taught in schools and how the people and events in the story are generally viewed by the Chinese.


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[Assistant] So first, let's tackle the part about how the Three Kingdoms period is taught in schools. Now, I only attended first through fifth grade in China back in the 1980s before I moved to the United States.


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[Assistant] I tracked down history textbooks currently used


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[Assistant] In Chinese schools, to see how they present this period.


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[Assistant] It looks like history class enters the curriculum in seventh grade, and in that textbook,


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[Assistant] The period is discussed mostly through a framework built around two major battles.


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[Assistant] Where Cao Cao defeated Yuan Shao to become Master of the North.


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[Assistant] And the Battle of Redcliffe, which turned the tide of history and set us on the path to three kingdoms rather than one kingdom unified under Cao Cao.


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[Assistant] However, this period is given all four pages in the textbook, so not really a lot of discussion there.


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[Assistant] The only other instance of the Three Kingdoms that I found in the textbooks was a discussion of the novel in the textbook for a 12th grade course on ancient Chinese history.


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[Assistant] It gave a brief introduction to the novel, followed by an excerpt from the part where Cao Cao tried to assassinate Dong Zhuo, then fled, and then ended up mistakenly killing the relative who took him in.


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[Assistant] Now, of course, your typical Chinese person would have already had significant exposure to the three kingdoms by the time they reached 12th grade.


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[Assistant] Personally, I read the novel well before I turned 10, and its influence is omnipresent in Chinese culture.


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[Assistant] As I said at the beginning of this podcast two plus years ago, the novel and the era have been infused into many aspects of Chinese culture.


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[Assistant] Just as elements from the works of Shakespeare have come to represent certain ideas in Western culture, so too have stories from the Three Kingdoms become stand-ins for certain ideas in Chinese society.


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[Assistant] For instance, all you have to do is mention the words oath in the peach orchard, and it would invoke in every Chinese person thoughts of brotherly affection, alluding to the pledge that Liu Bei and his brother swore at the beginning of the novel. Want more examples? There's an old Chinese saying that


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[Assistant] Men should strive to model themselves after Guan Yu whose name has become synonymous with loyalty.


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[Assistant] Liu Bei's three visits to Zhuge Liang's thatched hut is legendary and frequently invoked as an idiom for the importance of persistence. Literally, if you want to tell someone to stick with something, despite disappointments, just utter, three visits to the thatched hut.


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[Assistant] The battle at Redcliffe is the Chinese version of David vs Goliath and the line Zhu Ge Liang used to taunt Zhou Yu after foiling the latter's scheme to use Sun Quan's sister to seduce Liu Bei.


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[Assistant] That he gave away the lady and lost troops to boot?


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[Assistant] That is often used when describing an idea that backfires.


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[Assistant] And those are just a few of the many, many cultural references that came from this era and from the novel.


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[Assistant] Now, let's talk about the way the events and people of this time period


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[Assistant] Have been interpreted and reinterpreted over the centuries.


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[Assistant] Exhibit A of this phenomenon is the character of Cao Cao. In the era directly following the three kingdoms, Cao Cao, rather than Liu Bei,


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[Assistant] was actually considered the rightful successor to the Han dynasty.


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[Assistant] And thus, he was seen as a hero rather than a villain.


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[Assistant] So how did he go from that to being the most famous or infamous villain in Chinese history and literature?


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[Assistant] The reason was the ever-present desire by subsequent dynasties to portray themselves as the quote-unquote, legitimate ruling house, the house that inherited the mandate of heaven.


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[Assistant] This Mandate of Heaven idea goes something like this.


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[Assistant] A particular house, through great and virtuous deeds, receives the favor of heaven to rule the empire, and retains that mandate as long as it continues on the right path.


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[Assistant] But when it veers off that path, heaven withdraws its mandate and gives it to another, more deserving house.


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[Assistant] Now, the Han dynasty reigned for 400 years, so no one could dispute that it had the mandate of heaven. The question


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[Assistant] And the question on which Cao Cao's legacy turned,


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[Assistant] The one that immediately followed the Three Kingdoms period?


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[Assistant] The official line was that the mandate passed from the Han to the Wei.


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[Assistant] The kingdom founded by Cao Cao's descendants and then threw the way the mandate passed to the Jin.


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[Assistant] That interpretation, of course, allowed the Jin to claim some extra degree of legitimacy by drawing a straight line between it and the Han.


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[Assistant] Therefore, as the guy who laid the foundation for the founding of the Wei dynasty, Cao Cao was portrayed as a hero.


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[Assistant] But, as we discussed at the beginning of this episode, the Jin Dynasty did not last very long, and its quick collapse brought about a few more centuries of disunity.


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[Assistant] During those centuries, the northern part of China was ruled by nomadic tribes that the people of China proper considered barbarians.


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[Assistant] These barbarians were not very nice to the Han people.


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[Assistant] The dominant ethnicity in what is considered China proper.


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[Assistant] So when the Han Chinese of later eras looked back on this period of disunity, they saw it as a dark age.


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[Assistant] So they often view the Wei and the Jin dynasties


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[Assistant] Knocked as legitimate successors to the Han dynasty.


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[Assistant] But it's usurpers and interlopers who brought about the Dark Age. And that is why Cao Cao became the villain, while Liu Bei


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[Assistant] Who claimed to be a descendant of the house of Han became the hero.


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[Assistant] This is also a good place to address another question, which comes from listener Andrew, who asks about the author of the novel, Luo Guanzheng.


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[Assistant] Andrew wants to know, who was this guy and how did his life affect his writing?


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[Assistant] That is a great question, and the answer is very relevant to the discussion of how certain people are portrayed in the novel.


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[Assistant] Luo Guanzhong lived at the end of the Yuan dynasty.


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[Assistant] Which was the dynasty founded by the Mongol descendants of Genghis Khan. They ruled China for about 100 years, but the Han Chinese never liked them.


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[Assistant] Luo Guanzhong lived through the upheaval that was the transition from the Yuan to the Ming and as we will see,


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[Assistant] There were a number of factions that rose up in opposition to the Yuan, but they weren't exactly buddies with each other. Luo Guangzhong, it is said, had the ambition to seek out a king.


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[Assistant] That meant he wanted to find and serve an enlightened lord who would expel the Yuan and return the empire to the Han people.


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[Assistant] In pursuit of that goal, he went to serve one of the major players of the time.


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[Assistant] That guy did not listen to Luo Guanzhong very much. For instance,


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[Assistant] When the guy wanted to declare himself emperor, the Yuan dynasty was far from defeated and his other rivals for power were not yet vanquished. Luo Guanzhong and many other advisors told him that it was too soon, but he ignored them all and did it anyway.


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[Assistant] And eventually, Luo Guangzheng became disillusioned and left. Unsurprisingly,


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[Assistant] This guy did not turn out to be the enlightened lord that Luo Guangzhong wanted to serve.


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[Assistant] Nor did he succeed in his quest for control of the Empire.


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[Assistant] Things blew up in his face soon, and he had to surrender to the yuan.


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[Assistant] Then, after the Yuan fell, he ended up a prisoner of one of his former rivals, and that rival turned out to be the founder of the next dynasty, the Ming.


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[Assistant] By the way, the Ming dynasty founder's last name was Zhu, just like mine.


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[Assistant] So I think I can claim to be the descendant of an imperial house in the same way.


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[Assistant] He now found himself persona non grata in the new political arena.


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[Assistant] The fact that he has served the enemy of the new ruler of China meant that he was never going to be able to land any kind of position in the new government.


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[Assistant] Which pretty much put an end to the whole ambition to seek a king thing. And by this point, Luo Guanzhong was an old man anyway, so all he could do was focus on his novels.


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[Assistant] So, how does this life experience affect the way the novel was written?


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[Assistant] Well first of all, Luo Guanzhong had plenty of first-hand experience of the chaos and calamity


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[Assistant] That befell the general population during a changeover from one dynasty to the next.


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[Assistant] Which definitely comes through in the Romance of the Three Kingdoms.


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[Assistant] Also, he was a Han Chinese at a time when the Han Chinese were trying to expel hated barbarian overlords.


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[Assistant] Like I mentioned a little earlier, the prolonged disunity that followed the Three Kingdoms period


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[Assistant] was seen as a dark age in which barbarians were the scourge of the Han Chinese You can imagine


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[Assistant] How Luo Guanzhong's personal experience might lead him to view that period as a dark age and thus see the Wei and Jin dynasties as interlopers who brought on the dark age.


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[Assistant] And that, in turn, cast Cao Cao, the man who laid the foundation for the Wei dynasty, in the role of the villain.


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[Assistant] Also, Luo Guanzhong's personal ambition to find and serve a wise lord is a recurring theme in the novel.


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[Assistant] Which has many many examples of talented men seeking a wise and deserving master. The most talented of them all, Zhu Ge Liang,


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[Assistant] Once he found that worthy master, he gave everything he had to Liu Bei's cause.


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[Assistant] We also see cases where a number of talented men met their downfall because they picked the wrong master.


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[Assistant] Whether it was the inept Yuan Shao or the diabolical Cao Cao.


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[Assistant] So yeaah, I think Luo Guangzheng was definitely projecting some of his personal experiences onto these characters. Think about it.


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[Assistant] Zhuge Liang, more than Liu Bei, is the pivotal character in the novel. So the hero is not even so much the wise lord, but the talented advisor who found a worthy master.


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[Assistant] A master who only succeeded when he met this talented man.


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[Assistant] You can guess who Zhuge Liang was standing for.


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[Assistant] Okay, to wrap up the topic of how the people in the novel have been shaped and reshaped over the centuries, I'll share one more interesting perspective.


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[Assistant] This comes from the foreword in the 1973 Chinese publication of the novel, which is the printed copy that I have.


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[Assistant] China was still in the throes of the Great Cultural Revolution.


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[Assistant] Which was anything but great for China and its people. If you don't know much about it, go Google it.


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[Assistant] It was a destructive time when communist revolutionary zeal wrecked countless lives and set China back a decade or more. The critique of the novel in the foreword captures the zeitgeist of the era.


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[Assistant] It examines the book through the lens of Maoism and the ideology of class struggle that rule the day.


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[Assistant] While it praised the novel for its storytelling and artistic merits, the critique also denounced it as being on the wrong side of class struggle.


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[Assistant] Main characters like Liu Bei, Cao Cao, and Sun Quan were all painted as members of the quote-unquote Landlord class whose hands were stained by the blood of the peasants they oppressed.


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[Assistant] The Yellow Turban Rebellion was portrayed as a righteous attempt at revolution by the peasants, and it ended up being brutally suppressed by a corrupt feudal government and power hungry warlords.


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[Assistant] The novel's concepts of loyalty, virtue, honor, and righteousness were all cast as outdated, feudalistic ideas designed to prop up the upper classes who oppress the peasants.


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[Assistant] If I ever have the time, I am tempted to translate this critique into English because I think it's a terrific illustration of how drastically interpretations of history and art can vary with contemporary value.


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[Assistant] So one lesson to take away from all this is that anyone who says history is written by the victors is just not looking far enough into the future.


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[Assistant] Could you talk a little bit about cultural practices in the book that seem foreign to modern Chinese, such as beating on the chest and wailing? Or did the fictional story, which was written much later than the Three Kingdoms time period,


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[Assistant] Insert a lot of 16th century practices when they were telling the story.


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[Assistant] So I hate to disappoint, but I can't really speak to which practices in the novel were authentic to the time period.


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[Assistant] And which were more reflective of the time when the novel was written.


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[Assistant] I tried to do some research into this, but I did not have a whole lot of success.


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[Assistant] There's a Chinese book that is titled, promisingly enough, Cultural Practices of the Three Kingdoms.


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[Assistant] Unfortunately, I can't find a copy of it in any library in the US or online, so that's not very helpful.


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[Assistant] However, the good news is that my research into cultural practices did reveal a number of interesting tidbits, and it gave me the idea to do some supplemental episodes in the future about various aspects of the culture of this era to help flesh out our picture of what life in this time was like.


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[Assistant] I hope to cover things like what kind of food people ate, the holidays they celebrated, the bedroom furnitures they had, the way they traveled and so forth. So stay tuned for those. The next question comes from Kurt.


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[Assistant] Who noted how eagerly Liu Zhang's people surrendered to Liu Bei during the battle for control of the river land.


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[Assistant] Kurt wonders whether the novel's embellishment of this story


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[Assistant] With some really outlandish pro Liu Bei propaganda.


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[Assistant] Or was Liu Zhang just that bad of a leader that everyone was just waiting for the chance to jump ship to Liu Bei?


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[Assistant] So let me start by saying that no Chinese dynasty or kingdom has ever ended on the watch of a solid or even just run-of-the-mill ruler.


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[Assistant] That is to say that the last ruler of a dynasty or kingdom is inevitably portrayed in extremes, either as a brutal tyrant whose cruelty drives the people to rise up,


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[Assistant] Or as a muddle-headed weakling who practically begs someone to take his empire from him.


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[Assistant] So yes, I have no doubt that some of the descriptions of Liu Zhang in the novel are exaggerated along those lines.


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[Assistant] According to Chen Shou, the author of the Records of the Three Kingdoms, the historical text upon which the novel is based,


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[Assistant] Liu Zhang presided over a period of relative peace in the region of Shu, which was to his credit. But Chen Xiu also said that Liu Bei


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[Assistant] Chen Shou once served in Shu under the regime that Liu Bei founded, so he was probably just a little biased in favor of Liu Bei.


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[Assistant] As for the rapidity with which Liu Zhang's officials seem to turn on him, I think there are a couple things we should look at here. First, while Liu Bei's conquest of the Riverlands seemed to happen fairly quickly in the novel, it did take three years. So it's not like Liu Bei just marched in and everyone opened the door for him.


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[Assistant] Also, there's another factor that I think might have been at play here. Liu Zhang.


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[Assistant] Like his father, was not really a native of the Riverlands. His father hailed from the Heartlands and it was only in the 180s AD, around the time that the novel began.


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[Assistant] That he went into the Riverlands and took control of the region.


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[Assistant] had to contend with the powerful local families that dominated regional politics.


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[Assistant] So I would say that when Liu Bei began his takeover bid,


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[Assistant] At least some of these local families were thinking more about self-preservation.


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[Assistant] And probably were not too picky about which outsider they called master, as long as they would be left alone.


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[Assistant] So there was a conflict between the interests of the guy at the top and the people in his service. Ironically, we will see this dynamic at play once again.


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[Assistant] When Zhuge Liang begins his efforts to invade the north.


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[Assistant] Next, Mathias asks, as you likely know, many of the listeners of the podcast or just overall fans of the Three Kingdoms saga were brought to it by the Dynasty Warriors series. What is your opinion on the game's story mode?


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[Assistant] Mathias is definitely correct that it seems like many of you listeners out there first discovered the Three Kingdoms through the long-lived video game franchise.


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[Assistant] Unfortunately, I have actually never played any of the games in the franchise, so I've got nothing to offer on that front. I will say, however, that doing this podcast and discovering how many enthusiastic fans of the video game franchise there are,


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[Assistant] has made me more interested in trying out the newest Three Kingdoms game as soon as its price drops a bit.


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[Assistant] Because I am well past the point in my life where I would pay more than $25 for any video game.


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[Assistant] Next, we have a couple questions related to the single combat that dominates the description of battles in the novel.


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[Assistant] First, I have often talked about how so and so fought for a hundred bouts against so and so.


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[Assistant] More than a few listeners have asked what exactly about is.


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[Assistant] Quite simply, a bout is an exchange of blows, where each combatant delivers an attack, whether it's a hack with a saber or a thrust with a spear.


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[Assistant] What exactly is the deal with all the single combat in the novel, since realistically,


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[Assistant] They shouldn't have much of an impact on the outcomes of battles between massive armies. And Dan would be absolutely right.


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[Assistant] From what I could find on the subject, it seems that this idea of single combat between commanders and top generals on opposing sides was pretty much a literary concoction.


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[Assistant] One that, I should add, is a very common device in Chinese literature. I guess it just makes it easier to make heroes out of their characters. That's not to say one on one combat between generals never happened.


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[Assistant] For instance, it is historically true that Guan Yu killed Yuan Shao's general Yan Liang.


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[Assistant] The 2010 TV series portrayed significant internal conflicts in Dongwu between Zhou Yu and Sun Quan.


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[Assistant] Is this supported either historically or in the novel?


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[Assistant] So this is one of those things about the 2010 TV series that I did not like.


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[Assistant] The internal conflict between Zhou Yu and Sun Quan as portrayed on the show was never present in the novel, and there's no mention of anything like it in the historical records either. Quite the opposite, all indications were that


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[Assistant] Sun Quan respected Zhou Yu and treated him like an older brother. And that's the way it was portrayed in the novel.


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[Assistant] I guess the producers of the 2010 TV series just decided that they needed to inject some drama.


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[Assistant] Probably because they just got bored and wanted to find some new way to tell a story that's been told for centuries


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[Assistant] What do you think about the use of the Chinese language in the novel, and are there subtleties that are lost in the translation to English?


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[Assistant] To the first part of that question, it's important to note that the novel was written not in the vernacular Chinese language.


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[Assistant] But in a style that sort of mimics classical or literary Chinese, an old form of the language that was used from the spring and autumn period through the end of the Han dynasty.


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[Assistant] This old form is notable for its concise and compact style compared to vernacular Chinese. One effect of this stylistic choice is that the novel has pretty high information density.


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[Assistant] I've certainly noticed this in writing the scripts each week. It's not unusual for me to write a couple pages only to realize that I've covered just a couple paragraphs in the Chinese text.


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[Assistant] In Chinese, there's a beauty to this conciseness and simplicity. However, when translated into English, it comes off as very matter of fact and no frills. That is one reason why the English translation can often come off as dry.


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[Assistant] Now, as for what else might be lost in the translation to English, I would say that many of the poems scattered throughout the novel certainly lose something when translated.


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[Assistant] I think both the Moss Roberts translation and the Bruett Taylor translation do a fairly solid job of capturing the meaning of the poems, but the meter, the rhyme, and the panache are often missing.


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[Assistant] Also, Chinese is a very visual language, in my opinion.


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[Assistant] And I think some of the imagery that one gets from just seeing the characters used fails to come through in the English versions. Michael also asked


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[Assistant] What other works of Chinese literature would you recommend to listeners who enjoy the romance of the Three Kingdoms?


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[Assistant] Well, I would definitely recommend The Water Margin, which is another of the four great classic Chinese novels and ranks right up there with The Three Kingdoms as one of my favorites. In fact, I almost decided to do a podcast on that book instead.


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[Assistant] And I still might, whenever I get done with the Three Kingdoms podcast. It's set almost a thousand years after the Three Kingdoms period, and it's about a group of outlaws who can best be described as 12th century Chinese Klingons.


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[Assistant] Unlike the Three Kingdoms, the Water Margin, or Outlaws of the Marsh, as it's also frequently called in English, is written in the vernacular and has a much livelier, much more colorful style.


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[Assistant] Also, whereas the Three Kingdoms focuses on the wheelings and dealings of emperors, kings, prime ministers, and generals,


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[Assistant] Basically, the highest levels of Chinese society.


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[Assistant] The water margin provides a glimpse into life across a spectrum of society. Farmers, fishermen, restaurateurs, policemen, blacksmiths, teachers, priests, monks, butchers, and shopkeepers.


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[Assistant] And just talking about this is getting me excited about the idea of doing that podcast. Whenever I get done with the Three Kingdoms podcast, of course.


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[Assistant] Turning to western literature, a couple listeners asked what I thought about comparisons of the novel to Game of Thrones.


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[Assistant] There are many such comparisons, and if you want point-by-point comparisons, I would suggest Googling for it. Listener Dan shared a great one that I will link to in the script for this episode. It includes things like how Tywin Lannister is Cao Cao, which, yea, I could see some of that.


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[Assistant] I should, however, put out there the caveat that I've only watched the first season of Game of Thrones. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know, I'm way behind. And I've just started reading the Game of Thrones books. So based on that somewhat limited exposure, here's what I'll say.


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[Assistant] You can certainly find many similarities between the two.


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[Assistant] A notable result of this language is that the Three Kingdoms lacks the vivid character descriptions that Game of Thrones has. What character development the Three Kingdoms does contain is done very subtly, usually through accounts of the people's actions, rather than overt descriptions of how someone was feeling.


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[Assistant] I think this is one thing that makes the novel a difficult read for western audiences who are not used to this style and not familiar with the characters.


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[Assistant] Remember, when Luo Guanzhong was writing the Romance of the Three Kingdoms, he was about a thousand years removed from the era about which he was writing, and the people and stories of that era had already become a part of Chinese society and culture.


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[Assistant] So his readers had a baked in pre-existing familiarity with those events and people.


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[Assistant] And my last thought on the Three Kingdoms vs. Game of Thrones comparison is a point I have made when I first started the podcast. Check back with me in about 800 years.


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[Assistant] The Romance of the Three Kingdoms has persisted in cultural significance and relevance for eight centuries, as books, as stage performances, as stories told in teahouses, as radio programs, as TV shows, and as big screen adaptations. Let's see Game of Thrones outdo that.


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[Assistant] Alright, I think that's all the questions I've received. My apologies if I accidentally left out any. If I did, send me a reminder and I'll send you an answer.


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[Assistant] Thank you all so much again for checking out the podcast, telling other people about it, rating it in iTunes, which really does help, by the way, sticking with me for a hundred episodes and sending in some great questions. Keep those comments and questions coming and keep tuning in as we plow forward in the narrative.


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[Assistant] Which will resume on the next episode of the Romance of the Three Kingdoms podcast. Thanks for listening.


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[Assistant] Welcome to the Romance of the Three Kingdoms Podcast. This is episode 120.


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[Assistant] Last time, Zhu Ge Liang continued to roll on his northern campaign.


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[Assistant] First, he dealt the way Minister of the Interior such a devastating tongue lashing that the guy literally died on the spot.


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[Assistant] Then he outsmarted the Wei Grand Commander Cao Zhen and dealt him a big defeat. Cao Zhen was beaten so badly, they decided to seek help from the Qiang tribes.


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[Assistant] The Qiang people, you may remember, resided around the northwestern frontiers of the empire. They used to be friendly with the Shu General Ma Chao, but ever since Ma Chao was defeated by Cao Cao, the Qiang had pledged their allegiance to Cao Cao, and subsequently, to the Kingdom of Wei.


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[Assistant] The king of the Qiang nation relied on two top officials. On the civil administration side, he had the prime minister Ya Dan. On the military side, he looked to the commander Yue Ji.


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[Assistant] When Cao Jun's messenger arrived in the territory of the Qiang, he first went to see this Prime Minister Ya Dan and presented the gifts and told him the purpose of the visit.


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[Assistant] Ya Dan Dan led the envoy to go see the king, who read the letter and consulted with his staff.


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[Assistant] We have maintained relations with the Kingdom of Wei, Ya Dan said. Now that Commander Cao is requesting our aid, it is only right that we should help.


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[Assistant] The king agreed, and he dispatched Ya Dan and commander Yue Ji with 150,000 men who were all skilled in archery, spears and sword, studded mace, and flying hammers.


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[Assistant] They also had iron wagons, which were war chariots covered in iron armor. And they used these for transporting supplies, using camels and mules to pull the wagons.


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[Assistant] Ya Dan and Yue Ji took leave of their lord and made straight for Xiping Pass. The Shu officer defending the pass hurriedly sent this intel to Zhuge Liang, who asked which of his officers were willing to go handle this and repel the Qiang relief force.


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[Assistant] Both Guan Xing and Zhang Bao volunteered, but Zhu Ge Liang was concerned that they were not familiar with the geography, so he said to the General Ma Dai, the cousin of the departed Ma Chao,


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[Assistant] You are familiar with the nature of the Qiang people, and you lived in their territory for a long time. You can go along as the guide.


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[Assistant] So those three generals led 50,000 crack troops and headed towards Xiping Pass. After traveling for a few days, they ran into the Qiang forces.


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[Assistant] Guanxing led about 100 riders to the top of a hill to take a look.


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[Assistant] And he saw that the chiang linked their iron war chariots end to end and used them to surround their camp.


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[Assistant] The wagons were lined with weapons, just like a city.


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[Assistant] Guan Xing observed this for a long time, and he could not think of any way to defeat this deployment.


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[Assistant] So he returned to camp to discuss it with his comrades. Ma Dai suggested


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[Assistant] When we line up on the battlefield tomorrow, we will get a chance to see if they're for real. Then, we can think of a plan.


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[Assistant] So the next morning, they divided their troops into three forces and advanced, with Guan Xing leading the center, Zhang Bao on the left, and Ma Dai on the right.


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[Assistant] The Qiang lined up to face them, and from the ranks of the Qiang troops, Yue Ji galloped out valiantly, wielding a steel hammer and wearing a bow on his waist.


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[Assistant] Guan Xing directed all three Shu forces to advance, but suddenly the Qiang lines opened up to the sides, and from the center charged out the iron wagons, rolling toward the enemy like the tide, accompanied by a hailstorm of arrows.


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[Assistant] The Shu forces were routed. Ma Dai and Zhang Bao fell back first on the flanks, but Guan Xing and his troops were trapped by the Qiang in the northwestern corner of the battlefield.


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[Assistant] Guan Xing tried valiantly to break out, but he could not, as the Iron War chariot had him sealed up like a city wall.


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[Assistant] The Shu soldiers lost all order and just scrambled toward a valley. As dusk fell, they suddenly saw a cluster of black flags swarming this way. The general at their head wielded a steel hammer and shouted at Guanxing,


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[Assistant] Guan Xing spurred on his horse and tried to make a run for it, but his path was cut off by a swift stream.


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[Assistant] So now, he had no choice but to turn back to face Yue Ji. But by now, Guan Xing's courage had deserted him, and he could not hold his own, so he turned and fled into the stream.


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[Assistant] Yue Ji, however, caught up to him and made a mighty swing with his hammer. Guan Xing quickly ducked and managed to dodge the blow, but the hammer caught his horse squarely on its hip bone.


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[Assistant] That horse immediately collapsed in the stream, sending Guan Xing tumbling into the water.


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[Assistant] So things were looking dire for Guan Xing, but as he fell, he heard a loud noise and he saw that Yue Ji and his horse also fell into the water, for apparently no reason at all.


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[Assistant] By the time Guan Xing struggled to his feet, he saw a general on the bank fighting off the Qiang soldiers. Guan Xing now grabbed his saber and tried to slash at Yue Ji, but Yue Ji had managed to leap out of the water and escape.


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[Assistant] He did, however, leave behind his horse, which Guan Xing happily commandeered.


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[Assistant] When Guanxing got back on land, tidied up and got on his new horse, he noticed that the general he saw earlier was still chasing off the Qiang soldiers. Guanxing figured that he should go and meet this guy, what with him having saved his life and all. So Guanxing galloped forth.


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[Assistant] When he drew near, he saw a warrior amid swirls of mist.


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[Assistant] Recognizing that the man helping him was none other than his dead father Guan Yu, Guan Xing was stunned.


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[Assistant] Suddenly, Ghost Guan Yu pointed to the southeast and said,


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[Assistant] Guan Xing quickly followed his direction and headed southeast. He traveled until midnight when he ran into a squad of Shu soldiers led by Zhang Bao.


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[Assistant] Did you see your father? Jiang Bao asked when the two of them met. How did you know? Guangxing said with surprise.


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[Assistant] I was being pursued by the Iron War wagons, Zhang Bao explained. Suddenly, I saw your father descend from the sky and scare off the enemy. He then pointed and said, follow this path to go save my son. So I came this way with my men to look for you.


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[Assistant] Guan Xing then relayed his own story about how Ghost Guan Yu had run onto the field acting like one of those overbearing parents at their kids' soccer games.


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[Assistant] They then returned to camp together, where they were greeted by Ma Dai.


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[Assistant] We have no way to repel this enemy, Ma Dai said to them. I will hold down the camp while you two go inform the Prime Minister and ask for a way to defeat the Qiang.