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[Assistant] And Sheriff Mount told reporters that the cause of death was not immediately apparent and added that quote, there were few marks on her body.


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[Assistant] So the case immediately was labeled a homicide obviously because of the circumstances leading up to this discovery and now because of the state that she's been found in.


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[Assistant] So from the moment her body was found, the investigators were at a pretty big disadvantage. It was very clear that Mandy hadn't been killed where she was found, so they still had no crime scene.


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[Assistant] And worse, there had been a lot of heavy rainfall in the days since she'd gone missing.


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[Assistant] So there was a pretty good chance that critical evidence was gone at that point. That's so frustrating. Washed away. It's awful.


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[Assistant] So knowing that they were at this disadvantage and given the nature of this case and the other recent disappearances,


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[Assistant] The sheriff's office called in the local, uh, office of the FBI.


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[Assistant] In evaluating whether Mandy's death was related to these other crimes, and if so, to help develop a profile for the person responsible.


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[Assistant] So while the sheriff's office coordinated with other agencies, deputies got to work.


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[Assistant] tracking the only lead that they had so far, which was a suspicious vehicle spotted by several residents around the time that Mandy had disappeared.


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[Assistant] According to the sheriff, the deputies were looking for a black or brown full-size Chevrolet or Ford-style pickup with a matching canopy and a gold stripe. So pretty, like that's, that's a good description.


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[Assistant] Gives me chills. How many cars do you pass throughout the day and you think absolutely nothing? I always think that. But then you pass one and you're like...


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[Assistant] And that's the thing. I think about that all the time, especially after I've just like gotten done with the case. I'm like, I need to be more vigilant. I know. It's so hard. It is.


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[Assistant] Now, so the day after Mandy's body was found, the autopsy was conducted by Whatcom County Medical Examiner, uh, Dr. Gary Goldfogel, I think is how you say it.


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[Assistant] One of the first things he noted was that Mandy's body appeared to be covered in


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[Assistant] What was quoted as long scratches on her legs, buttocks, and arms.


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[Assistant] And there were more scratches on the front of the body than there were on the back.


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[Assistant] And it also indicated that she'd been in motion when she got these scratches because they were parallel.


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[Assistant] And the medical examiner noted that they were quote, consistent with someone running through brush, such as the blackberry bushes found along the river bank where Mandy's body was found.


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[Assistant] Now her body showed no signs of defensive wounds, no evidence of strangulation, and there was no other DNA or evidence found underneath her fingernails.


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[Assistant] There was however a significant blunt force trauma injury to her forehead.


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[Assistant] But he wasn't able to say whether or not Mandy ever lost consciousness.


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[Assistant] So ultimately, he identified the cause of death as a freshwater drowning.


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[Assistant] Oh my god. Because she had been knocked unconscious and then thrown in the river. Ugh. Yeah.


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[Assistant] This is a bit graphic and I just want to let you guys know that. Uh, he did find semen in Mandy's body.


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[Assistant] And quote, based on the sperm count concluded sexual intercourse had occurred no more than 12 hours before her death.


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[Assistant] And given the circumstances, he was comfortable saying that's what had happened. It was a rape.


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[Assistant] And so the semen sample was collected and sent to the state's FBI office and the Washington State Patrol Crime Lab for analysis, where a DNA profile would later be created. But remember, this is


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[Assistant] Barely the 90s at this point. DNA had not come that far.


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[Assistant] They have it and that's great. But it's not where it is now. Not at all. It's not like they ran it through some system and it was like ding ding ding, here's your guy. That's the thing. It's like yes. Stop CSI.


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[Assistant] What to do with it is kind of a different story at this point. Exactly. So now they knew the cause and the approximate time of death but other than that, again, investigators are stumped and not finding much of anything else.


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[Assistant] They spent hours combing the banks of the Nooksack and the surrounding area, but they did not find


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[Assistant] Anything that indicated where Mandy was kidnapped from, where she was attacked, or who had taken her. And the deputy coroner, er, no.


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[Assistant] No, sorry. The deputy, uhm, like a, uh, officer. Yeah. Tim Ortner said of the person who did this, quote, he either has to know the area or he's the luckiest son of a, son of a bitch in the world. Yeah. I'm going to go with knows the area.


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[Assistant] And high school student Pete Stewart told reporters, it makes you think twice now before you go out walking alone. It makes you think what a crazy world it is out there.


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[Assistant] And a lot of residents in this town started locking doors that they'd never bothered with in the past. Like, this was a town where you were safe enough to not have to lock your back door, your front door.


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[Assistant] Not even think about it. Something like this changes everything. Yea, and people were going out and buying guns for protection, like arming themselves because they were scared.


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[Assistant] Yeaah. Because remember, she's not the first girl to go missing. Yeaah, this seems to have been a pattern around there. Exactly, which is interesting because I will tell you that they're actually not related. Oh wow. Or they don't- They don't believe it's related? They don't believe it's related. Okay. So days later,


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[Assistant] After a report of a young woman being nearly abducted elsewhere in the county, another one, public fear prompted the sheriff's office to make a public statement regarding the risk of human predators.


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[Assistant] Having people know where she was going, she did everything right. Everything. That's the thing. And sometimes you, that's what happens. We've done these stories a million times.


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[Assistant] You do. You do everything right. And it's still, yeaah. And the, so the sheriff's office also reminded residents to be vigilant in their awareness of strangers in the area.


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[Assistant] And they specifically noted including men who are reportedly watching young women or children especially near schools and bus stops.


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[Assistant] So this community was like in crisis. On a huge edge. Like I can't imagine living in this community at this time. I wouldn't, I don't think I would leave my fucking house. No.


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[Assistant] And now by December, tips were coming in non-stop about Mandy's murder.


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[Assistant] But unfortunately these tips were not very helpful in helping investigators narrow down the pool of potential suspects.


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[Assistant] And at that point, the pool included just about anybody in town that they hadn't ruled out yet.


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[Assistant] Now the best lead investigators had was a description of a man seen in the area around the time that Mandy did go missing. And the press described this man as the pudgy-faced man. He was described as being white in his early to mid thirties, quote, with a pudgy face and cheeks.


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[Assistant] Dark hair and a mustache and three to four days growth of beard. So that's a pretty good description.


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[Assistant] It's not nice to call people pudgy faced, but if this is a murderer or whatever. Then call them whatever you want. Exactly.


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[Assistant] So based on the information from the public who had seen this guy driving, uhm, a 1970s light brown station wagon in the area, so kind of similar. Yep.


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[Assistant] So they were able to put together a composite sketch and they circulated that in the news and around the community and also on AP Wire.


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[Assistant] On December 3rd, 1989, Mandy was laid to rest at St. Joseph Mission Cemetery in Clipper, which is a smaller town close by to Acme. And the funeral and burial costs were actually paid from a fund that was set up by the administration of the Acme Elementary School.


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[Assistant] So this community really banded around each other. Yeaah.


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[Assistant] So any hope that the new year would bring a break in the case quickly faded. The new year came and went.


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[Assistant] Investigators were still trying, but they were coming up with nothing.


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[Assistant] Now, in late January 1990, there was testing done on a pair of sweatpants that had been discovered during the initial search.


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[Assistant] The pants were believed to be Mandy's, but they weren't even completely sure that they were.


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[Assistant] But in a statement to the press, a spokesperson for the FBI crime lab told the reporters,


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[Assistant] So this is like wall after wall after wall. And that's it. And it's like people are getting hope because they're like, okay.


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[Assistant] They hit a massive wall. It's so frustrating. That's the thing. And sadly none of Mandy's other clothing was ever discovered so they couldn't do testing on it.


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[Assistant] And neither was the Walkman that she had taken with her on her jog. Ugh.


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[Assistant] So investigators, they were also staying silent.


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[Assistant] On whether Mandy had been sexually assaulted, like to the press. They didn't want this getting out.


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[Assistant] That we're going to be able to be used to identify somebody during questioning. Yeah. And they weren't gonna let that out.


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[Assistant] Absolutely. But despite their best efforts up to that point,


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[Assistant] They had really only succeeded in ruling people out. They had, they didn't really have suspects. They were just ruling people out left and right. And that's going to take a while. And the composite sketch of the pudgy face van had still not produced any concrete leads. Investigators weren't finding anybody who matched that description.


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[Assistant] And in the weeks that followed the new year, a bunch of investigators ended up being taken off the case, which was indicating that the case was getting cold.


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[Assistant] But by March, the tide actually seemed to be turning in favor of the investigators when the sheriff's office announced that they had identified a person of interest in Mandy's case. Ooh.


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[Assistant] Sheriff Larry Mount told the press, there's one, excuse me, there's more than one suspect. We're just waiting on lab results to help us decide whether we've been going in the right direction or the wrong direction.


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[Assistant] And what he was referring to were hair and fiber samples collected from Mandy's body that they were hoping to tie to a suspect.


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[Assistant] And they had also been collecting blood and saliva samples from suspects over the course of the investigation.


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[Assistant] But those, again, were more useful in ruling people out than they were in helping. Yeah, than actually identifying someone.


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[Assistant] And the lab results slowly came back from the crime labs. The sheriff's investigators actually seemed further away. Still. Further away than they ever were in the first place. And the announcement of a person of interest proved to be one of the last encouraging leads that investigators had in the hunt for Mandy's killer.


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[Assistant] So in March 1992, two years after the Sheriff's Office had made that announcement,


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[Assistant] He also claimed they never advised him of his rights. They never allowed him to speak with his lawyer.


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[Assistant] Thinking that he was one of the last people to see Mandy alive on the day she went missing. Like he's thinking he's gonna help. Yeah. And then this is what happens, I think.


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[Assistant] They may have been getting desperate if what he says is true. Yeah.


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[Assistant] But he told reporters, at first, I never considered I would be a suspect. I firmly believe that it's only because I live in a dump and I was poor.


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[Assistant] No, actually, Whatcom County Sheriff's Chief Criminal Deputy Dean Sandel agreed.


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[Assistant] And he said the investigators took samples in the most unobtrusive way we could.


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[Assistant] Alright, so I was not there, so I don't know. Yeah, I don't know. And actually, it's kind of unclear if the suit was resolved. How or if it ever really was or if it just got dropped.


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[Assistant] It was the last time that Mandy's case received attention from the press for many, many years. That's upsetting. It is.


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[Assistant] So as the years passed after Mandy's murder, luckily,


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[Assistant] DNA was coming a long way and had come a long way.


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[Assistant] In its ability to identify suspects and especially, obviously as we know, in cases involving sexual assault.


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[Assistant] And so a DNA profile had been developed from the semen collected during Mandy's autopsy right after.


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[Assistant] But it wasn't until 2009 when the cold case was reopened that it did become useful to the investigators.


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[Assistant] Were what prompted Detective Kevin, uh, Bo- I think it's Bo-hey.


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[Assistant] And he didn't know it yet, but he would become one of the few investigators to see the case all the way through from beginning to end. Wow. That's cool. Because don't worry. There's an end. There's an end. Thank goodness. There's an end and this fucker


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[Assistant] They thought that Mandy's abductor was most likely somebody she knew, or at the very least was familiar with.


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[Assistant] And they theorized that this person had pulled up alongside her while she was jogging.


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[Assistant] And pointed a gun at her, demanding that she get in the vehicle.


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[Assistant] They figured once inside the vehicle, this person drove about four miles away into a wooded area.


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[Assistant] And they believed that the attacker was chasing her through the woods.


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[Assistant] Eventually caught up to her, hit her in the head, which caused that blunt force trauma to her forehead, and then placed her in the river unconscious, causing her to drown.


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[Assistant] So Boe and his team went back to the original file and they re-interviewed every single person involved. And they took DNA samples from anyone living in the area at the time.


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[Assistant] Who would have had any contact with Mandy that fall? Anybody that was willing to at that point? Yeah. And eventually, excuse me.


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[Assistant] Eventually the detectives collected more than 80 samples, which of course were all going to have to be processed. Yeaah. And that's the thing with DNA, it's like... It's not like CSI. It's not like CSI at all.


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[Assistant] And all throughout those years, Bowie and his team continued to chase down leads. And one of those leads would eventually introduce them to an acne resident named Timothy Bass.


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[Assistant] Now at the time of the murder, he actually would have been known to Mandy and her friends.


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[Assistant] If his name sounded slightly familiar to you, that's because his younger brother Tom Bass.


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[Assistant] Was one of the boys that Mandy had plans to go to the movies with the night she disappeared.


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[Assistant] What? Small town coincidence. The fuck. So.


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[Assistant] But when the detectives went out to talk to Tim, who was the older brother, not the boy she had plans with.


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[Assistant] He acted like he wasn't quite sure who Mandy even was at first. Shut up.


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[Assistant] And given his proximity to the case, the detective Bowie found it pretty hard to believe that he wouldn't remember Mandy. Yeah, come on. But still, he was like, oh, let me fucking jog your memory, asshole.


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[Assistant] And he said Bass looked up kind of like he was searching his memory and then finally said, Oh, that was the girl that was found in the river.


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[Assistant] What? Like, Jesus Christ, dude, be a little more fucking callous. Like, how eloquent. It's like, yeah, that was the girl from your community that was murdered. That's what you said.


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[Assistant] But then on top of all that weirdness, he also said he didn't really know her.


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[Assistant] Detective Kevin Bowie was not the only one thinking about Tim Bass in 2013, because yes, we are in 2013 at this point. Wow. Mandy was killed in 1989. Damn. Her family went through


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[Assistant] So in June of that year, a group of mothers had gathered for a group outing to a local water park with their kids. It was just a, like, community being community, I don't know.


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[Assistant] Now during a conversation between two of the mothers, Heather Backstrom and Merrilee Anderson, the subject of Mandy's death came up.


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[Assistant] And they both talked about how surprised they were that the notorious case was still unsolved.


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[Assistant] So they kind of talked about the case for a little bit, you know, like having a discussion and Heather Backstrom suddenly blurted out, I know who killed her.


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[Assistant] And was surprised when Merrily reported, or excuse me, replied, I do too.


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[Assistant] They did not know for sure, but they had an inkling. But they were pretty sure. Because they both had really scary and rather unpleasant experiences with one Timothy Bass.


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[Assistant] Just like whoever earlier was like, I'm, I wonder if I've talked to him this weekend. Yeah, they definitely have.


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[Assistant] Tim Bass had been friends with her now husband while they were in high school.


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[Assistant] But once he went in that direction she could hear beeping from the phone, which proved that he hadn't made a call.


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[Assistant] As we all know, he's already raped somebody at this point. He is a dangerous motherfucker. Piece of shit. Piece of garbage.


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[Assistant] And probably because he was scared of her calling the police because he knew he had murdered someone.


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[Assistant] So Heather Backstrom, the other friend who was talking at the waterpark that afternoon, she had a similar experience with Tim Bass only a few months before Mandy was murdered. Oh God. According to her, she was only 15 years old at the time and she'd gone to a softball game just to like, you know.


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[Assistant] No, spoiler alert. Now, during the drive, he started aggressively flirting with her.


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[Assistant] Now luckily, Dan being in the car, her friend that was giving her the ride, kept things from escalating any further.


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[Assistant] And she went out of her way to avoid him anytime she saw him. What a disgusting pig. And that's the thing, it's like...


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[Assistant] I feel like sometimes when a woman has an experience like that, like aggressive flirting and like doing that weird thing to her knees, some people will be like, what's like, what, why were you so freaked out? Oh yeah, there's definitely.


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[Assistant] Something happens to your body and you know. There's alarm bells that immediately go off. And I just wanted to say that because as I was writing it, I was thinking about people that would be like, I don't know, like that doesn't really sound that scary. She was terrified. She was 15. She was 15 years old and this 21 year old is touching her and she doesn't want to be touched and she doesn't want to be flirted with. So I just wanted to say that. Just putting it out there.


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[Assistant] So at the time that each incident occurred, both of them felt powerless, like they were like, I don't-


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[Assistant] Please, if anything like this ever happens to you, you're not overreacting. Any reaction you have is not an overreaction. And that's the thing, if you feel like you are, it's okay.


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[Assistant] If you feel unsafe, someone crossed your boundary. Fuck em up. Fuck em up. Fuck em up. Fuck em up.


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[Assistant] So, still, in the wake of Mandy's death, those experiences made both of them wonder whether or not it was Tim Bass who had murdered Mandy. But they knew that there was no evidence that they probably wouldn't be taken seriously.


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[Assistant] And also if they were wrong, they would do irreparable damage to this guy's reputation, which probably isn't great, but.


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[Assistant] Had they not gone to that waterpark together that day and gone to the police about Tim?


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[Assistant] I don't know if this case would have been solved. Wow. Just two moms at, this shit could be a movie. It's crazy. I was gonna say, this is like cinematic. It is. The way that this is coming together. It is. Truly. The way that they're just like sitting there. I could see like, I like picture their kids playing in the background and they're like having this deep discussion. Yeah. And they decide to do something about it. Hell yeah. And like I said, had they not, I don't know, I don't know what would have happened. So.


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[Assistant] The investigators, their situation with Tim still remained frustrating. He was not providing any kind of DNA sample and would not even speak to investigators further. Shady motherfucker. Shady motherfucker. So now it's 2015. We fast forwarded. Two more years have gone by.


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[Assistant] Six years after the case was reopened.


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[Assistant] Detective Bowie went back to Timbass because he's like, I know I'm on the right track here, I just gotta get there.


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[Assistant] And he was like, you know, maybe in the past couple of years he changed his mind, maybe I'll get some DNA.


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[Assistant] But he still would not give DNA. He went years, years holding out. Something's wrong. Something is wrong here. Something's wrong. So.


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[Assistant] The exchange with Bowie actually did freak Tim Bass out to the extent that he told his brother, Tom,


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[Assistant] He was worried that he would become a suspect and that the reason he didn't want to submit a sample, and this is not true, don't even entertain this for a second.


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[Assistant] He said he didn't want to submit a sample because he actually had had sex with Mandy while she was home for Thanksgiving break. Shut the fuck up, you pig. No the fuck you didn't. You actual pig. And even his brother didn't believe him because he was like,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Mandy had only been home for like two days at that point before she went missing, one of which was Thanksgiving. And you're fucking disgusting. And you're gross.


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[Assistant] And he was like, I don't even know how you would have had time to have such contacts with her. And Tim told his brother, oh I just went up to her and I said, oh you're keeping fit. And that was it.


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[Assistant] So he was like, oh, I just complimented her and it was that easy. Oh, shut the fuck up. Go fuck yourself.


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[Assistant] But then it actually gets worse. Then he asks his brother, Tim asks his brother Tom, if the police ask Tom anything about this, he wants Tom to tell the police that Tom also slept with Mandy. Oh my god. To make it seem like she slept around, which she did not.


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[Assistant] And that was not the only bizarre conversation that went down within the Bass family at that time. According to Tim's then wife, Gina Malone, who is no longer his wife. Oh good. Not long after the conversation that Tim had with his brother, he was actually talking to his mother, Sandra, and asked her quote,


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[Assistant] He wanted to pin this on his dead dad. Holy shit. And also it's like dude.


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[Assistant] Your DNA will still look different. Yeah, you don't have the exact same DNA, my friend. Like, oh my god. That shows what's going on up there. Truly. Wow. So his mother was absolutely horrified at this and she's like, what the fuck are you talking about? Oh my god. And she just apparently, according to Gina, she covered her face and just said, no.


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[Assistant] So I don't know about that. What is that about?


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[Assistant] That is some, that's some shit. That's some shit.


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[Assistant] So meanwhile, Detective Bowie was endlessly frustrated with the lack of progress in the case. Because it's right there. Because that is exactly it. It's dangling in front of him and it's the old man that's like, you gotta be quicker than that. Yea, it's truly like, uuuh. So close. So.


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[Assistant] He reaches out to Kim Wagner, who was the manager of the bakery store. The bakery store where Tim worked. Oh my god. He was a delivery driver for a bakery store. This man may have given you a fucking cake. Ugh. Hate it.


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[Assistant] But, so he approaches the manager of the store, and he's hoping he can get permission to swab the delivery trucks for touch DNA, which would be left by the driver, obviously.


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[Assistant] So Kim Wagner told Detective Bowie that he would need to get permission from the corporate office.


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[Assistant] So she gave him the phone number for corporate headquarters, but they wouldn't allow it.


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[Assistant] Which is bullshit in my opinion, but I was like, that's like, you're fucked up. Yeah, no. So that stalled the case for another two years. Oh my god.


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[Assistant] So now, we're in spring of 2017. Holy shit.


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[Assistant] And Detective Bowie goes back to Kim, and he's like,


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[Assistant] Can you provide the investigators with the general route that Tim drives? Like can you do, can you just do that?


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[Assistant] Until then, he hadn't told her who he was investigating or why.


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[Assistant] And the detective confirmed, yes he is. And he explained, we basically want to follow him so that if he throws anything out along his route,


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[Assistant] We can take it. It's DNA and it's public shit now. So she was like, yeah, you can.


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[Assistant] But they were, uh, they were able to follow him along his route but they never managed to collect anything containing his DNA.


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[Assistant] So a short time later in August of 2017, Kim actually ran into Tim Bass in the break room at the bakery.


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[Assistant] And she saw him drinking water from a plastic cup.


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[Assistant] So being the motherfucking MVP of the motherfucking decade, she wa- waltzed, I was gonna say went and then I went for waltzed, it was kinda crazy. She waltzed on over, collected the cup from the trash,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So she texts the detective and she's like, hey, uhm.


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[Assistant] And came back as a DNA match to the semen collected from Mandy's body in 1989. Holy shit. He had murdered her. Wow. And it was a slam dunk. You can't argue that. You can't argue that. So later one asked why she took it upon herself to collect the evidence and this like almost made me cry when I read it the first time.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So on December 12th, 2017, Whatcom County Sheriff's deputies, led by our Detective Kevin Bowie,


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[Assistant] Thank goodness. Like because her heart would never, ever. Oh my god.


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[Assistant] Bebended again. But the fact that she knows what happened. And to see someone be punished for it. Exactly, and knows that the person that did this is never going to be allowed to do this to another person. I can't even imagine.


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[Assistant] And the sheriff told reporters that they made the arrest based on that DNA evidence connecting Bass to the murder. So had Kim not made that decision, he might still be walking free.


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[Assistant] But, uh, he did stop short of saying where the evidence had been collected from in the press conference. Can't really talk about that too much. So while investigators and the prosecutor's office started building their case against him, Tim Bass was


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[Assistant] Yeah, you can have all the alibis you want. Your semen doesn't just like jump across miles and miles and go anywhere. That's not how it works. And also, stop asking your mom to do these things, you fucking, ugh. Nasty motherfucker.


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[Assistant] You murdered someone the day after Thanksgiving. What the fuck is wrong with you? And he also kept begging his brother Tom to spread a rumor that Mandy was promiscuous. Oh my god. He said, Tom, do what you can. Maybe other friends could say they knew her back then as well. Eww. Like,


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[Assistant] What the fuck? You killed her in one of the most brutal ways possible and now you want to kill her memory too? Jeez, that is zero. Zero remorse. Every single day on this earth is a living fucking hell for him. Oh, I hope so.


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[Assistant] So the DNA evidence connecting him to the murder, uh, was incredibly strong, to say the least. Yeah. And during his press conference, Sheriff Elpho told reporters the laboratory determined that the match probability was 1 in 11 quadrillion.


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[Assistant] Yeah, that's pretty good. So, uh, they were pretty comfortable prosecuting.


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[Assistant] Now on December 14th, Tim Bass did appear before a judge. He was officially charged with first degree felony murder.


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[Assistant] And it alleged that he caused Mandy's death in the course or furtherance of rape, attempted rape, kidnapping, or attempted kidnapping.


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[Assistant] Now in his statement to the press, Whatcom County Prosecutor David McEachran, that's what it is, told reporters that he wasn't able to charge bass separately for rape or kidnapping.


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[Assistant] Because the statue of limitations had run out for both crimes. I hate that.


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[Assistant] So the felony murder charge was most likely the one that he would face.


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[Assistant] Now in the months that followed, the public defender Stephen Jackson, who was Tim Bass's public defender obviously, filed one motion after another.


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[Assistant] First, he tried to get the kidnapping and the rape charges dropped. Then he wanted to have the DNA evidence excluded from trial.


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[Assistant] He said, put simply, law enforcement officers cannot use private citizens to obtain evidence without a search warrant, where a search warrant would otherwise be required. This search was done for a singular reason, to assist law enforcement. It's like, yea, whatever.


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[Assistant] Kim acted entirely of her own volition and said she had a daughter and hoped that somebody would do the same if it were her daughter.


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[Assistant] Judge agrees with the prosecution, and Jackson's motion to suppress DNA evidence was DENIED. Bye! Ayo.


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[Assistant] So after 30 years of dead ends and false hope, the opportunity to get Mandy Justice finally arrived on May 10th, 2019. Wow, this just happened. 30 fucking years, yea. Wow.


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[Assistant] In his opening statement to the jury, uh, David McEachran presented the case as it had been assembled by the investigators. They said she'd gone out jogging.


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[Assistant] And again, placed her unconscious body in the river where she drowned.


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[Assistant] Now the evidence collected during the autopsy obviously implicated Bass in the crime, and his behavior following his arrest, especially his repeated attempts to get friends and family to lie on his behalf, only confirmed his guilt.


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[Assistant] So the public defender, Steven Jackson, on the other hand, he...


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[Assistant] Just presented a case that really had little to do with Timbass at all.


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[Assistant] That's great. Do you have anything to back that up? Imagine trying to get a case to remain unsolved. No. When you have the killer right here. No. Imagine. No. I couldn't. Couldn't be me. But he actually argued that the prosecution had no evidence of rape. Huh.


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[Assistant] If a tree falls in the middle of the woods. And no one's around to see it. It didn't really fall. Like, sir? Like, no.


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[Assistant] Have all the goddamn seats in the world and get the fuck out of here. Go get a granola bar. Get the fuck out of here. So basically he was just saying like, you know, a lot of people had seen Mandy jogging that day. Any one of them could have been the person who kidnapped her in broad daylight. Wow. Shut up. What a defense.


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[Assistant] Nobody was really, uhm, into this at all. And after a week of testimony and unfortunately very graphic evidence, the prosecution rested their case on May 17th and the defense rested theirs on the 22nd.


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[Assistant] And they also found him guilty in the special verdicts, first degree rape, attempted first degree rape.


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[Assistant] Obviously overwhelmed with like...


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[Assistant] So he was sentenced to 320 months or 26 years in prison. Bye. For the crimes against Mandy Staubach.


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[Assistant] And it argued, among other things, that the admissibility of the DNA evidence linking him to the crime and the constitutionality of charging Bass under felony murder statute amended after the crime occurred. Blah, blah, blah, blah.


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[Assistant] Basically what they were trying to say is that like one of the statutes had run out for the crime, for what he was convicted of and that.


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[Assistant] It's, and what they were trying to say too was that Kim Wagner had violated Tim's constitutional rights.


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[Assistant] I don't think you can technically take somebody's DNA at work, but it's very hard to prove that somebody made you do it. Like law enforcement made you do it. Yea, absolutely. There was no proof that they did. Exactly. And I don't think they did. I think Kim was living. Yea, she was doing her job, man. She was being a mama.


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[Assistant] Now as far as the argument that the prosecutor applied a statute that had been amended after the crime occurred, the justices wrote


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[Assistant] Uh, erred in applying a 1990 version of the felony murder statute to this 1989 crime.


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[Assistant] They were literally arguing the difference of a year. Yeah, shut up. The error was harmless beyond a reasonable doubt and it had no effect on the outcome of the case.


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[Assistant] So after hearing arguments from both sides, the appeals court sided with the prosecution. Good. And rejected all of Bass's arguments, thus upholding his conviction. So rot in hell, Tim Bass. Rot in hell. Rot in hell.


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[Assistant] Raw in every fucking level of hell that there possibly could be. Indeed.


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[Assistant] I hate all of the people that we cover that murder people because they're horrible people. This one in particular, I was like, are you kidding me?


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[Assistant] I'm so glad he's in jail. Me too, after- ROT. He had 30 years to fuckin' sit with himself and know what he did, and he was perfectly fine doing it. Yeah. ROT. ROT. ROT. Inhale. Ugh, and you know what, Mandy?


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[Assistant] And on that note guys, we hope your rest of the week is positive too and we love you. And we thank you for listening and we hope you keep listening. And we hope you keep it weird. If I have to tell you not to keep it that weird, you're wild. Yeah. Love you. Bye. Byeeee. What if I said bye like that every time you guys would you still listen?


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[Assistant] This is moments. You're never annoying. Never.


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[Assistant] You know, I've been, I can't stop thinking about that name ever since we- Yeah, it's such a cute name. Yeah, and like those kind of names are coming back now.


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[Assistant] It's funny, I wonder if any of, I don't know exactly how any of that works, but if somebody looking at that deed, switching hands constantly, like, thought anything about that.


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[Assistant] I, you're asking the wrong girly about a musical. Yeah.


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[Assistant] Like you have the money to spend and like plenty left over. Just do it the right way, brother.


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[Assistant] I'm gonna put my sunglasses on, roll up my window and say, I don't know her.


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[Assistant] Do you think that he was worried that Pitezel was starting to freak out and was gonna like alert authorities? He was probably worried of that. And he was pissed.


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[Assistant] Obviously putting somebody in that enclosed room is fucked up, but even like, more than that. Cause you don't just burn your fucking friend, your associate, and just be like, meh, moving on.


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[Assistant] I can understand why the jury was confused because there's just so many elements to that, to understand.


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[Assistant] What? You just kept them from the kids just to fuck with the kids. Why would you even do that? Cause he's an actual monster. Evil. Yeah. So.


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[Assistant] In October. That's so sad, they're mourning the loss of their father being shuttled to all these new places and now they think their mom just abandoned them. Holy fuck.


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[Assistant] I don't know how he dies, but I hope they did something brutal to him.


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[Assistant] Well, I wonder if it's like almost he can't, now that he's in prison and he knows he's got got, he can't kill anybody anymore, so now he's killing people differently in his mind. Yeah, like he's living that.


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[Assistant] Oh, I can't wait to hear how. Cause I actually, I don't have any idea how he gets caught or what happens to him after he's caught.


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[Assistant] Weird! But not so weird that you go all around the world doing H.H. Holmes type shit, cause like, don't.


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[Assistant] Keep it so weird that you're Detective Gary. Yea, just be a detective. Keep it that way. In a world full of H.H. Holmes' Be a Detective Gary. And with that, we leave you.


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[Assistant] It's so morbid here. It's so morbid because it's the day after the motherfucking Scandival finale.


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[Assistant] Like, we've seen a lot of cheating go down on this show. Yeah. We have never seen cheating to this level go down on this show.


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[Assistant] He definitely said, I love you. A girl I saw on TikTok literally like slowed it down and he said, I love you. Why are you playing mind games with your mistress? He's a lot. Like what?


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[Assistant] And the fact that he had the motherfucking audacity to blame it on Ariana, like, oh, she, if she had just followed me. What? I have to follow you now?


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[Assistant] What about that thing that you build throughout a 9 year relationship called trust? One of my favorite parts


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[Assistant] Him, like her trying to talk to him and him just like taking the longest fucking pause to take a sip of that drink.


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[Assistant] Get on it. Peacock has, uhm, a whole like playlist basically of the most important episodes that you can watch. Oh, there you go.


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[Assistant] Series, it's not really a series, it's just a two-parter. Part two. Part two. But when we left off in part one, we got all the yucca details about Pam and Billy's, uhm, quote unquote relationship. It's hard for me to call it a relationship because, uhm, she's an adult and he's a child. Yeaah. So that's hard.


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[Assistant] Their crime. We heard about that. Uh, we heard about Pam and her husband Greg's relationship becoming way more toxic. And finally,


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[Assistant] From part one, let me just give you like a quick little recap. The plan was for Billy to go into the house through the basement. Pam was gonna leave that basement door unlocked.


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[Assistant] Billy would wait there for Greg to get home, he would shoot him, and stage the scene to be a robbery.


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[Assistant] And remember, Pam would be, like, she would get a whole alibi out of this because she would be away at some kind of school board meeting.


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[Assistant] Like we said in part one, Billy had uhm, no gun, no car, no license, and he also wasn't quite sure how he felt about murdering a human. Wow. So the first time Pam asked him, he couldn't go through with it, but like we know, she lost it on him. But at the very end of part one, we heard that Billy had another quote unquote opportunity, cause there was another school board meeting that Pam was gonna be away at.


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[Assistant] So now let's get into exactly how Pam, Billy, and some of Billy's friends actually did carry out their plan to commit murder.


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[Assistant] So, if you remember from part one, two of Billy's best friends were JR and Patrick, who was known as Pete.


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[Assistant] And they were the ones who liked to work on junk cars together in JR's front yard. Yes. They were the first best friends that Billy made when his family had moved to Seabrook three years earlier.


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[Assistant] And they were both very instrumental in helping Billy get through life when his father died.


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[Assistant] Their families all knew them as like the three musketeers. They did literally everything together. In fact,


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[Assistant] Uh, so the first time Billy brought up the idea, you know, the one about killing a whole ass man to his friends, was the first or second week of April. Okay. Can't be like too short. But he told his two friends that there would be a lot in it for them. Once the worst part was done, which he said obviously was killing Greg, they could take any valuables that they wanted from the house.


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[Assistant] Oh, fantastic. Yea, silver linings. Yea, woohoo.


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[Assistant] So one afternoon, Ralph Welch, who I mentioned it in part one, he had been staying with JR. Okay. Uh, he like got kicked out of his house, so he was staying at the Lattheim house. He had a cousin over, uh, Ralph did.


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[Assistant] That ended up eavesdropping on a conversation between Billy, Pete and JR about the murder. Oh damn, they're sloppy.


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[Assistant] So rather than like contact authorities or tell someone, the cousin who's Ray, Ray Fowler. Not void Fowler.


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[Assistant] Like, instead of going to anybody and being like, hey, they're gonna kill someone, he was like, oh yeah, like, can I get out of this? Like, what's up?


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[Assistant] It really is. Now, Ray was a few years older than Billy and his friends, uh, Ray was 18.


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[Assistant] He already had way more than his fair share of run-ins with the police, and the most recent was, uh, his four month, four month stay at the Rockingham County House of Corrections. He had already served time.


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[Assistant] Billy was like, okay, like, I guess we should start looking for a weapon so that we can carry out this murder.


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[Assistant] So yea, they, they decided to look for a large hunting knife as a backup plan. But, you know, they were still gonna look for a gun.


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[Assistant] Now while the other boys kept on trying their different connections to find a gun,


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[Assistant] Billy went to Pam and he was like, hey, we're still having trouble looking for a car to use since, you know, none of us have a license.


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[Assistant] And she was like, oh my god, that's fine. I have a Honda CRX and you guys can use it. I'll park it behind the building on the night of the school board meeting. I'll leave the key in the ignition. Take off as soon as you get there.


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[Assistant] So the plan did come to fruition for the first time in mid-April.


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[Assistant] Billy packed a duffel bag of dark clothing that he was gonna change into.


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[Assistant] And the four boys, Billy, Pete, Ray and JR, loaded into Pam's car, which was parked behind the building like she said it was going to be. And they started making their con- their way to the condo in Derry.


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[Assistant] But as they were driving, Billy was getting way more anxious the closer they got. He's starting to freak the fuck out.


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[Assistant] He didn't want to go through with the murder anymore and he actually started giving Ray Fowler the wrong directions so that they would get lost.


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[Assistant] So some, so they did end up getting lost, but somehow Ray finally did figure out his way to the condo.


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[Assistant] In that moment, like just carrying out his normal night in his own home having no idea how close he was to the people that were gonna murder him.


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[Assistant] Now when Billy went to Pam and explained what happened, she was just the same as last time, probably worse. Absolutely furious with him.


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[Assistant] She went with the whole, I don't know if we should be together anymore, if you can't do this for me. Wow, what a piece of shit. Yeah, a piece of shit. This is the second time now that she's done this.


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[Assistant] So finally Billy broke down and he said, next time I won't fail.


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[Assistant] Fail? Like no, you're failing if you're murdering someone. That's a big old failure.


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[Assistant] That's- It's so sad to see how many times he almost did, but she brought him right back into her fucking tangled web. She knew that he could be manipulated. And he was. So the next time came a few weeks later on May 1st.


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[Assistant] When Pam was once again scheduled to be at a school board meeting.


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[Assistant] So P and JR agreed to help a second time, but now they decided that they wanted to be paid.


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[Assistant] Wow. So not only did they want the valuables at the house, they wanted payment.


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[Assistant] So Billy went to Pam about this and she was like, okay, I'll give them a thousand dollars each, but I'm going to pay it out in installments of $50 per week so it doesn't seem suspicious.


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[Assistant] Now in the days leading up to the murder, she made sure that they weren't gonna fuck it up this time.


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[Assistant] And JR agreed to take one of his father's guns to use, but they still planned on bringing the knife with them just in case.


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[Assistant] They drove a- This just gets grosser and grosser. They drove a Nana's car to commit murder. So on the morning of May 1st, Greg went to work.


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[Assistant] He did some paperwork, returned a couple phone calls, and then he ducked out of the office early.


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[Assistant] The reason he left early was because he was going to be having dinner with a few clients that evening.


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[Assistant] But in the meantime, he went to his parents' house, he played with his little niece.


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[Assistant] Chatted with his parents, fixed a flat tire, and then went off to all his appointments.


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[Assistant] So it was 8.30 at night by the time he finished up with his clients and headed back home to Derry. And by that time all the arrangements had been made.


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[Assistant] Pam had left the basement door unlocked and she told the joi- the boys where all the jewelry were- was.


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[Assistant] All the valuables told them exactly where they could find everything.


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[Assistant] So it was still light out when they all arrived in Derry, so they drove around a little bit before JR parked the car in a shopping plaza near Misty Morning Drive.


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[Assistant] Billy and Pete sat in the backseat. They were tap- uh, excuse me, taping their fingers so that they wouldn't leave fingerprints. They taped their fingers. Jesus. Then Billy loaded the 38 revolver that JR had taken from his dad's collection.


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[Assistant] And once the sun went down, they Billy and Pete, the two of them.


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[Assistant] Corruptor on the backside of the condo until they found the door that led to Greg and Pam's unit, the basement door.


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[Assistant] No, they made their way inside. Billy had to chase around the dog who was barking and growling.


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[Assistant] And he was like, ah, get the fuck out of my house. Oh, I hate that. But Billy got him into the basement. And this is like a tiny dog. Is it? Yea, a little, it's a, what is it, a shih tzu I think? I was gonna say, it's a little guy.


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[Assistant] Exactly. So then once the dog was out of the way, they headed upstairs, they ripped apart the couple's bedroom.


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[Assistant] Pete grabbed a knife from the kitchen and cut open multiple pillows on the couch.


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[Assistant] And just like spread the stuffing out across the living room floor, I guess, for a dramatic effect.


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[Assistant] So once they felt like they had sufficiently ransacked the house, Billy and Pete sat in the dark, just waiting for Greg to get home.


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[Assistant] Billy thought that it might be a good idea to wait in the closet and jump out when Greg finally walked in.


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[Assistant] Or he suggested that maybe they should throw a towel over his head when he arrived to like disorient him.


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[Assistant] Now finally they settled on a strategy. Pete would wait behind the door and surprise Greg when he walked in, and then Billy would turn off all the lights and close the door. Now a few minutes after they settled on their plan, they watched Greg's truck pull into the driveway. So in the excitement and anxiety that they were having,


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[Assistant] Billy and Pete's positions got switched and Billy ended up behind the door.


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[Assistant] So Greg walked in the front door, he flicked on the hall light and called out to the dog.


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[Assistant] Everything was eerily silent for a few seconds and then Billy jumped out from behind the door.


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[Assistant] So obviously he's like stunned, so he yells out and he pulls back hard. But before he could get away, Pete rushes over.


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[Assistant] And he rushes up behind Greg and pushes him to the floor.


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[Assistant] Then he turns off the lights and closes the door.


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[Assistant] Now when he turned back, Billy had Greg on the floor in front of the stairs, just beating him in the face while Greg was just trying to block any of the blows. This man just walked into his house. Into his home. To this chaos. After a full day of work, after spending time with his family earlier, just being a normal fucking guy. Holy shit.


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[Assistant] So Billy's beating the shit out of him, so Pete rushes over and grabs Greg by the hair and slams his head into the wall. They like attacked him. Oh my god.


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[Assistant] And Pete screams at him, get down on your knees. And he lunged forward slightly with the knife in his hand to make Greg do what he wanted to say.


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[Assistant] So Greg did as he was told and he said, just don't hurt me, dude.


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[Assistant] Oh my god. He repeatedly asked about the dog. Like, where's the dog? Where's the dog? And Pete finally told him nobody had heard the dog.


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[Assistant] And then Pete demanded, uh, that Greg take off his wedding ring and give it to them.


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[Assistant] So they fumbled around with his wallet, they were procrastinating until there was finally nothing left to do but to kill him.


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[Assistant] So from the moment they started talking about the pa- the plan to kill Greg, Pete had been confident that he was gonna be able to do it without a second thought.


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[Assistant] Pete was like, I can do it. He was boasting to his friends, telling them that he was actually curious to know what it would be like. Oh, shut the fuck up. He was saying he was looking forward to it.


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[Assistant] What a frustrating story. It really is. It's just terrible. Yeah. So in the moment when Pete realized that he couldn't do it, he looked to Billy and nodded his head in the direction of the revolver. That was in Billy's jacket pocket.


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[Assistant] So Billy knew what that meant, obviously. He grabbed the gun from his pocket, he pulled back the hammer and held it right near Greg's head. The three of them stood there. Pete was still gripping Greg by the hair.


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[Assistant] And Billy was holding the man to, excuse me, holding the gun to the man's head for what he would later say to a jury felt like a hundred years.


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[Assistant] So with the plan completed, the both of them ran for the back door. Pete grabbed the pillowcase full of the valuables.


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[Assistant] And then they ran through the back door, they jumped the railing on the back porch and ran, there was a big field behind the condo, so they ran through that.


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[Assistant] Until they saw the headlights of JR's grandmother's car. Can you imagine if I was his grandma I'd be like


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[Assistant] But the plan was for the other two boys to wait in the parking lot until Billy and Pete returned, but something had changed. I think they got nervous. So they were parked in a different area than they should have been.


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[Assistant] So both boys were falling over themselves as they were sprinting through the grass.


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[Assistant] Until finally they got to the car and they heard themselves into the backseat and shouted for them to drive.


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[Assistant] Now Billy and Pete changed in the backseat as they were just drove along the back roads back to Seabrook.


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[Assistant] They threw a ton of items of clothing out of the window as they drove, but what didn't get thrown


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[Assistant] Out of the window went into the black duffel, er, went into the duffel bag.


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[Assistant] Which they would ditch on the wo- in the woods on the way back. Okay. I'm so excited, I'm like- You're so excited to tell the story. Yeah.


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[Assistant] So to cut the tension, JR, this is fucked. This is absolutely wild. They were cutting the tension. JR and Rey started singing Shoo, Shoo Fly Pie.


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[Assistant] So Billy was like, this made him feel better. He was starting to smile. It made my fucking stomach turn.


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[Assistant] And Pete actually got wicked pissed off at them for singing and was like, shut the fuck up, like I don't want you to sing right now. Damn. He wanted to get the hell out of Derry and as far away from the condo as he possibly could.


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[Assistant] So Pam, she got back home to Derry around 10.30pm once everything was done.


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[Assistant] She of course pretended to be shocked and horrified when she found Greg's body.


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[Assistant] And it was followed by her yelling, help, my husband, my husband! Wow. You piece of shit.


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[Assistant] An actual monster. So she ran to the house next door and she said something was wrong with her husband and that they needed to call 911.


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[Assistant] Now, Derry, New Hampshire, at the time, had a super low crime rate, and homicides were like, super out of the ordinary. So, actually, to drive that point home even further, before Greg's murder, there had been zero murders in the town that year.


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[Assistant] Just beyond the front door, still dressed in his gray suit and coat, they were shocked. Yeah.


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[Assistant] Now by the time they got there, his skin had been bruised up completely, and there was a bit of blood coming from his nose.


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[Assistant] One of the officers checked for a pulse, but obviously they weren't able to find one.


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[Assistant] And another neighbor who was actually a medical assistant offered to do CPR because at this point they're not seeing that he's been like shot. Yeah.


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[Assistant] So the officer that hadn't found a pulse rolled Greg over onto his back.


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[Assistant] Outside the condo, it was absolute chaos because Pam's screams had drawn all the neighbors outside.


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[Assistant] Dozens of people were just crowding around the area outside of the house. So Pam asked that somebody called Judy and Bill


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[Assistant] Who remember lived like five minutes away in the same complex. Yep. And whoever called them.


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[Assistant] Jess said that Greg was quote, very very sick.


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[Assistant] Are you kidding me? So they rush over there thinking like, oh no, like, does he have a stomach bug? Yeah, like, what's going on?


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[Assistant] But they got stopped by the police at the perimeter of the scene, and Judy was like, what the fuck is going on? And Pam just told her, I don't know. I was at school. There was a meeting.


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[Assistant] And the officer came out and told them, we can't help him, he's already dead.


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[Assistant] So, the case called for the presence of the Derry Police Captain, who at the time was Captain Lor-Loring Jackson.


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[Assistant] Now he arrived to the scene after it had already been cleared completely.


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[Assistant] He had 24 years on the job between Massachusetts and New Hampshire.


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[Assistant] And he had seen every kind of crime you could possibly see.


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[Assistant] Now the other officers on the scene obviously weren't as seasoned, so he started taking over and just divvying out tasks.


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[Assistant] He wanted to be sure that everything was proper- properly documented.


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[Assistant] And that all the evidence was collected and cataloged correctly. That was like a big thing for him. Okay. Which it always should be. Yeah.


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[Assistant] Now some officers went out to check the field beyond the complex in just about a hundred yards from the smarts back deck area.


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[Assistant] Sergeant Vincent Byron found a large carving knife stuck into the ground.


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[Assistant] And then, so they found the knife in the ground out there, but then a few feet away from that, uh, that sergeant there.


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[Assistant] Found pieces of cardboard and plastic from Pam's jewelry box. So he's like, what the fuck happened here? Yeaah.


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[Assistant] So by 2.30 that morning, the Derry Police got joined by the New Hampshire State Police Major Crimes Unit.


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[Assistant] Who went over the house a second time, like it had already been totally cleared and then they were like, we're gonna clear it even further. Yeah.


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[Assistant] Took more photos, got more evidence, and took notes on literally everything.


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[Assistant] Really overall very unhelpful, they hadn't seen much. Yeah. Or heard much, but it's like, whatever.


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[Assistant] So according to almost everybody they talked to, Greg was quote, a very private individual, someone they never really got to know during the 18 months he and his wife had lived in Derry.


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[Assistant] Well this was also a time, which is crazy to think about, before cameras.


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[Assistant] I think this was kind of more of a time where like you minded your own business. Yea, that's true.


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[Assistant] She explained that she got home, she found Greg on the floor.


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[Assistant] And she said, quote, having watched television shows like Rescue 911, she decided against touching the body and instead just started screaming for help.


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[Assistant] A good one. Now, so obviously we all say all the time how, you know, people are gonna react differently to trauma and grief. Yeah. But there was something off about Pam's behavior in the minds of the detectives.


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[Assistant] Okay. Everybody's different, I suppose. Yeah, different strokes for different folks. In this case, not so much. Not so much. To Detective Barry Cherwicks, I believe is how you say it, Pam seemed more anxious than sad. Weird. Or upset.


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[Assistant] I'll dismiss it right now as just another strange reaction to death, but it's in my head. But I will note it. So the next day...


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[Assistant] The state medical examiner confirmed that, of course, the cause of death was the single gunshot wound to the head and the, he, uh, the medical examiner.


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[Assistant] estimated that it had occurred just an hour or two before Pam arrived home, which was correct.


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[Assistant] Now the wound itself was ragged, which suggested to the medical examiner that Greg had been shot at close range with somebody holding the gun very close to his head, which was also true.


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[Assistant] But what was strange was that there was no gunpowder residue on the wound, and there were small pieces of lead on the scalp.


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[Assistant] Which indicated that the bullet started to fragment before it struck Greg.


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[Assistant] And, even stranger, there was no blood spatter at the scene like you would expect with this kind of crime.


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[Assistant] So the medical examiner was trying to figure this out, like how that could have happened. And he felt like somebody had placed a pillow.


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[Assistant] They placed the pillow on his head. Exactly. So that's what they thought, like they took a pillow or some kind of soft thing.


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[Assistant] In between Greg's head and the barrel of the gun, almost like a silencer, or a quieter.


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[Assistant] But they couldn't find anything at the scene to support that theory. There was no pillow with a hole through it.


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[Assistant] So I don't know if maybe they took the pillow with them and it was one of the things they threw out on the way, but they never answered that question. Oh, that's interesting. It is, yea. That's really interesting. But I would think.


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[Assistant] That's probably the answer. I'm sure that's it. Like, I think they were conniving enough to silence that gun. I think they saw it in a movie.


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[Assistant] Now, so obviously the cause of death was not that surprising to anybody. Everybody knew that Greg had been shot. But what they wanted to know, obviously, was who killed Greg and why.


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[Assistant] So while authorities were combing through evidence, Pam was super happy to entertain reporters. Oh, I'm sure. And she had so many theories as to what happened.


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[Assistant] She also told reporters that in the days since she had found her husband dead, she'd woken up at 6am every day and called the police for updates, but said that they, quote,


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[Assistant] She said that quote, they haven't even sat down with everything yet. Which is not true.


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[Assistant] Oh and it wasn't only their fault, she was also pissed at the neighbors. Oh of course. She said she found it hard to believe that none of her neighbors heard anything on the night of the murder.


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[Assistant] Wow. It's like yeah, they didn't hear a gunshot because you probably told your boy there to fucking silence it. And it's like you are a murderer.


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[Assistant] The police aren't working on this yet so fuck them. Damn. Like what? Yea, it's everybody else's fault. She's crazy.


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[Assistant] So, uh, Police Captain Loring was, uh, not pleased, to say the least, that Pam was talking to the press. Yeah. Because he had personally told her not to. Jesus. He was like, can you stop doing that, please?


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[Assistant] I don't think she was capable of cooperating. I think it's, in her mind, it was her world, and she was orchestrating it how she saw fit. Yeah, and the spotlight was on her, and she couldn't


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[Assistant] Uh, had been working on the case, obviously, even though Pam said they weren't.


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[Assistant] And they told her sharing any kind of info with the press could be really damaging or could even compromise their case. Yeah. So they're like, why the fuck are you trying to ruin our case, lady?


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[Assistant] And Lauren, excuse me, Lauren Jackson, would later say that Pam was very defensive about talking to the press. She said she didn't want to hear anything bad about the press because she was one of them.


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[Assistant] Because remember, she wanted to work in the media, and she did work in media. Also, you're not a reporter, you're a volunteer for Project Self-Esteem. Humble thyself. Humble thyself. Fuck you, Pam.


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[Assistant] But Jackson found her comment about being one of the press very strange.


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[Assistant] It really wasn't the only thing about her that he was gonna find strange as the investigation went on.


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[Assistant] And he still, he was like, her behavior, it's fucking weird.


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[Assistant] She started complaining about what a mess the investigators had made in her home.


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[Assistant] She also stepped right onto the blood stain from where Greg's body had been found and had the audacity to ask them who was going to clean that up.


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[Assistant] What was shitty was that the crime scene itself was kind of just as unhelpful as the neighbors and Pam. Like they were hitting a lot of dead ends there.


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[Assistant] Obviously, it was obvious that somebody had ransacked the house, but it didn't seem like your regular robbery, so they're like,


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[Assistant] They're confused here because they're like, yeah, it seems like this happened, but it's awful a little bit.


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[Assistant] They were like, what? Like, it seems like there's, uh, differences in the ways that some areas were trashed, like some were more organized than others.


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[Assistant] So the investigators theorized that there were two intruders. Right off the bat, exactly. There were also some more strange tidbits on the first floor of the home.


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[Assistant] They didn't steal his car, they didn't take his ring, and his wallet full of his credit cards is right here.


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[Assistant] Well she would have known they actually did it when she got home, so that, like she wouldn't have had to do that.


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[Assistant] No, she just got the car, they got the car where she had parked it and then the whole thing was that she was gonna come home and find this. Okay, that makes more sense. So what I think with the ring is that they probably, I think Billy probably was like, take it off, or Pete said take it off, cause like,


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[Assistant] Very strange. And they started thinking if somebody was going into a home to take everything of value,


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[Assistant] So much so that they were willing to commit a murder in the middle of it, why wouldn't they take the most valuable things? That's weird. Like even the car. Yea, it doesn't make sense. So the investigators, they still felt like the theory of a robbery gone wrong wasn't a bad one, but it had other flaws even beyond the valuables left behind.


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[Assistant] It was gonna start kind of like falling by the wayside, the whole, their whole theory.


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[Assistant] Again, why would these robbers, even if they weren't the most experienced, choose a time to rob a densely populated condo when everyone was home and awake? That was another thing that they were like, why would they do that?


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[Assistant] And they also reasoned that most burglars, even petty thieves, they don't usually bring along a firearm and they're usually not willing to kill someone. Yeah, they just want to steal shit and leave. Mhm. And if for some reason they did go against all of that and kill someone, again,


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[Assistant] So between Pam's strange behavior, obvious enjoyment of the spotlight, and the very many unusual aspects of their crime scene,


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[Assistant] Something about this murder wasn't adding up to them, but they were struggling because it wasn't adding up, but then it wasn't leading them in the direction of the truth.


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[Assistant] Now, back to Pam. As far as she knew, she had planned every aspect of Greg's murder perfectly, and she almost did. Which is scary. Yeah.


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[Assistant] But what she didn't plan for was the impulsive stupidity of teenagers. Oh yes. Because in the months before the murder, Billy had told a good number of his friends about his sexual relationship with Pam


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[Assistant] And most of the time, they weren't even doing much to hide their affair in public.


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[Assistant] And in the weeks they had spent planning the murder, Billy had told those same friends the plot to kill Pam's husband so that they could be together.


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[Assistant] And he told most of those friends that what he believed to be true based on what Pam had told him.


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[Assistant] They just kinda thought he was bluffing and trying to seem tough, which like...


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[Assistant] We've been there, we've done that, so you know how we feel. But the day after the murder, Billy and his friends were back in school. My god, they just go back to high school. They just went back to high school, I'm pretty sure it was like their junior year. My god. So, and before his first class even started, Billy was telling his friend Sal Parks about what he'd done. Immediately.


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[Assistant] Now Billy and Sal had talked about the murder plot a number of times before that day. Billy had even shown Sal sketches of the condo's floor plan that he made based on Pam's description. Wow. But uhm, for some reason Sal never thought Billy was gonna go through with it. Guys. Guys. Guys, you know. You know.


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[Assistant] But that morning, when Sal asked Billy if he had gone through with the plan, Billy nervously confirmed that yup, they had killed him the night before. Now later that day, Billy bought Sal lunch with the money that he'd stolen from Greg's wallet.


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[Assistant] Just to prove it to him. And by the end of that afternoon, he had told pretty much all of his friends the gnarly details about what had happened. Now, Sal was worried now that he knew all the details, he could be considered an accomplice, so he was like, I'm just gonna keep my mouth shut about this entire thing. Like, I'm not gonna say anything.


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[Assistant] Now, just like Billie, Cecilia Pierce, she knew this whole thing had happened at this point, and she had been an instrumental part of being a part of it, planning it. So she found it difficult to keep what she knew to herself.


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[Assistant] And on the morning of the murder, Pam had confided in Cecilia that the boys were gonna follow through the plan that night.


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[Assistant] So the next day, a guidance counselor came up to Cecilia because she knew that Cecilia had been close with Pam.


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[Assistant] She called her into a meeting and let her know what had happened to Pam's husband.


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[Assistant] So Cecilia did her best to fake shock, but later that night when she got to her shift at Papageno's, the secret was becoming too overwhelming for her. And she ended up confiding in a coworker about it.


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[Assistant] Anyways, so Cecilia explains the rest of the story to Cindy, and Cindy suggested it would be best to stay out of it entirely. She was like, I don't think you need to tell more people about this, I think you need to shut your mouth.


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[Assistant] She basically said that if Cecilia had told her about it, then other people could definitely find that out, and one of them might go to the police, so she should shut her fucking mouth.


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[Assistant] My god. But at the same time, Cindy there.


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[Assistant] Apparently didn't take her own advice, and a couple weeks later she had some friends over her apartment for drinks, and she told all of them the entire story about Pam, Billy, and Cecilia.


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[Assistant] So there were two women there, finally some people with sense in this fucking town, and they were absolutely shocked.


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[Assistant] So one of them, 39 year old Louise Coleman, went home and called the police. Finally. Finally. Finally somebody has contacted the appropriate people in this situation. Finally someone calls the police and says, shit's weird. Jesus Christ. She would later tell a jury, Louise there.


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[Assistant] Now, like the bad game of telephone it was though, Louise Coleman's tip to the dairy police got a lot of the facts wrong.


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[Assistant] But luckily it was still enough to point investigators towards Cecilia Pierce. So.


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[Assistant] Detective Sherwick's, uh, Sherwick, excuse me, paid a visit to Cecilia and joined by her parents, they sat down for a formal interview.


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[Assistant] And Cecilia told the detective that yup, she did know Pam. She met her through an internship in the media center.


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[Assistant] But she said, I know nothing about the murder, I insist, I know absolutely nothing.


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[Assistant] So then Pam is approached and she told detectives, Oh my gosh, Cecilia would not have anything to do with this. Of course not. And it's like, yeah, but what about you? Yeah. But for her part, she seemed Pam there pretty unconcerned about the fact that investigators were circling closer and closer to her.


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[Assistant] And her group of fucking teenage misfits that she put together. Yeah, it's like no one noticed this shit. No one noticed it. And now even as they're encroaching upon them, she's not worried about it. No.


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[Assistant] So by mid-May she had gotten a large sum from Greg's life insurance and she seemed in a hurry to spend it. She bought clothes and shoes for Cecilia in an obvious to all of us attempt to buy her silence. Yup. Then she went electronic shopping with Billy and his friends. My god. She also used some of the money to buy herself a new car.


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[Assistant] She put down the first and last month's rent on a condo in Hampton closer to Billy.


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[Assistant] Excuse me, closer to Billy's mother's house. I was just gonna say, this is so disgusting. Fucked.


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[Assistant] So she was doing her best to rein in this group of teens, and for the most part she was successful. Cecilia would later say, she just really was convinced that no one was going to listen to the boys over an adult.


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[Assistant] Like she thought she was gonna have everybody hook, line, and sink her. Of course. But what wasn't in her control was the people that the kids had already confessed to.


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[Assistant] And Louise Coleman's tip had pointed the investigators in the right direction.


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[Assistant] It would be a tip from one of the few honest teams in the circle that would finally break the case.


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[Assistant] So remember, Ralph Welch, Ray's cousin. So Ray was the one that drove the car. Yep. And Ralph had nothing to do with it. He was just staying at JR's house. Yes. He had heard about this.


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[Assistant] So he had known about Pam and Billy's relationship since it started. Ralph there.


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[Assistant] And about his friend's involvement, but he was still having trouble believing that they had anything to do with it. He was like, you guys are fucked, like you didn't do this.


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[Assistant] But by early June, all the talk and boasting from JR, Billy and Ray,


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[Assistant] had started to get to him, and all the rumors about Billy killing Greg started to seem more likely than they had to him before. So he confronted them.


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[Assistant] He said, did you do this? And at first they denied any involvement.


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[Assistant] But eventually they told him the whole story thinking he wasn't gonna tell anybody. So by the time they finished telling the story though,


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[Assistant] He pretty much told them he didn't know what he was gonna do, but it wasn't something he was gonna keep to himself.


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[Assistant] So the next day, uh, Ralph tried to make Pete Randall leave the Lattime house where he was staying. Okay.


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[Assistant] Two, two guys here getting in a fight. Yeah. So they started fighting even more and it got physical. Okay. They beat the shit out of each other for a few minutes. Pete ended up storming off with JR and Ralph, or excuse me, with JR. And Ralph went inside the house, where JR's mom wanted to know why he was all fucked up. Like, he obviously looked like he'd been in a fight. Yeah. And Ralph just blurted out to her, they used Vance's gun to kill someone. Vance is JR's dad. Oh.


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[Assistant] So Diane, the mother, obviously, uh, she had a few follow-up questions. And once Ralph had gotten through the whole story.


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[Assistant] Including the part where JR stole one of his gun's dads to kill Greg. Vance Jr's father, so JR's father.


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[Assistant] Sorry, Vance, JR's father, went to check his gun collection. There's a lot of players here.


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[Assistant] So sure enough, he found that his 38 revolver had been cleaned, and he was not the one to have cleaned it.


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[Assistant] So he took the gun straight to the Seabrook police and the rest of the story slowly started to fall into place.


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[Assistant] Now remember, his son stole this gun, and this dad, I have to say like, he did, like, that's really heroic, and like, what a fucking Sophie's choice to make there.


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[Assistant] Like, oh my god, my kid might be involved in killing somebody, but I have to take this information to the police.


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[Assistant] So as soon as she heard the police were looking for her son, Ray Fowler's mother dragged him to the police department, another hero here. There you go. And once he was there, he wasted no time telling the detectives the entire story.


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[Assistant] He didn't spare any details, but of course he passed all the blame on his friends and he said he had only gone along for the ride. He had no idea they were gonna kill someone. Uhm. He knew everything.


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[Assistant] They planned to continue driving south, possibly to Mexico or to South America. But Pete called home to let his mom know they were safe. And his dad got on the phone and he had, like, he didn't know about the murder yet. But he was like, why the fuck did you steal my car and you better turn it right the fuck around right now? Yeah, hell yeah. Pete's dad was not the kind of guy you wanted to go against.


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[Assistant] So they all turned around and headed back to Seabrook because daddy said bring my car back home. Oh my god. Like that's where we're at you guys.


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[Assistant] The lack of frontal lobe development is really highlighted here. They thought, oh yeah, I'll just steal my dad's car and drive it to Mexico and he won't notice. I'm sorry, what? I'm sorry, what? I'm sorry, what?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So once they got back home, each of the boys struggled to tell their parents what had happened. They were obviously leaving out all kinds of important details. They were using pseudonyms here and there.


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[Assistant] And they were peppering the story with lies to minimize their own involvement.


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[Assistant] Now Vance listened to his son's version of the events and even though he still didn't understand what had actually happened or how JR had even gotten himself involved in this, he went back to the Seabrook Police Department


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[Assistant] On the morning of June 11, 1990, a clerk from the Derry Police Department arrived in Seabrook


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[Assistant] Carrying warrants for the arrest of Billy, Pete, Ray, and JR.


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[Assistant] They knew that their arrests were on the horizon, so they all scattered and they spent most of the day just trying to avoid the police. Oh man.


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[Assistant] Now meanwhile, Derry Police Captain Jackson wanted to have another talk with Cecilia Pierce. I think he saw that she was a bit of a weak point. Oh yeah, 100% he saw that as a weak point. So he called Cecilia's mother and Cecilia's mother said she was out for the day but she was gonna try to track her down. She's like, oh fuck, what are we involved in here? Yeah. So Mrs. Eaton, that's Cecilia's mother,


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[Assistant] Pam was like an authority figure and maybe just thought she was like an older friend, cause she's not that much older than Cecilia. That's true.


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[Assistant] So, Pam picks up the phone and she was like, oh, Cecilia actually just left, but let me go collect her and I'll bring her to the police.


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[Assistant] But at that point, Mrs. Eaton had had it up to here, officially. Officially. She was like, I am real fucking tired of this strange hold that you seem to have over my daughter. Stay out of it, and I will track down my own daughter.


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[Assistant] And Miss Eaton called Pam and was like, just so you know, we're going to the police station.


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[Assistant] Yelled up Mrs. Eaton on the phone and said, don't take her over until I get there. Let me go with you and we can all go together. I am a victim here. I have a right to know everything that the police know and they're not telling me anything.


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[Assistant] But, Pam was telling the truth a little bit there. The Dairy Police had actually stopped giving her any information about this case. Of course.


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[Assistant] If you want to meet us at the station, meet us at the station, but we're going there now. She's like, I don't know, I don't have time for this.


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[Assistant] They get to the station. Cecilia continues to insist to the police that she knows nothing about the murders. She tried to even seem like she was disinterested in being there.


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[Assistant] Now Captain Jackson realized that Cecilia wasn't really grasping the severity of the situation she was involved in. So he was like,


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[Assistant] You know what? Let me fuckin' scare her. So he starts making threats of charging her with interfering with the investigation. He's like, you wanna play that game?


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[Assistant] Let's go. But at that point, Cecilia's mom didn't know that's where this was headed so she put a stop to the interview. She was like, no we're done here.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Jackson explained that he was simply like playing bad cop. He was just trying to get Cecilia to say what she knew. Yeah, of course. And he was like, we know that she doesn't have anything to do with the murder, so we don't think she does. Or the murder, excuse me. So Cecilia's mom was like, yep, I get it.


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[Assistant] I still feel like she's gone through enough tonight and we're not really gonna get anywhere here.


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[Assistant] So I will talk to her at home and try to get out the truth and I'll like, I'll get back to you. So.


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[Assistant] They were like, okay. And I think they knew like they weren't going to get very far at that point.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But on their way out of the station, Pam had been sitting there the whole time waiting for them at the station.


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[Assistant] And she went right up to them and was like, what's going on? I need to know everything. My god, she is like...


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[Assistant] She just is, she doesn't give a shit. She's like a fly attracted to a big pile of shit. She can't stay away. Oi. So Cecilia was like, nope, nothing's going on. They asked me the same questions that they did before, but she said, uhm, like don't worry about it basically.


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[Assistant] Diane Lattime, uh, late, late time, excuse me, JR's mother.


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[Assistant] She was like hunting them down because she knows that the police are looking for these kids. So she finds them hiding out in an arcade in Salisbury, Massachusetts. And she was able to convince them to turn themselves in.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But these motherfuckers were hiding out at an arcade. Of course they were.


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[Assistant] So, news of the arrest broke a day later, but because everybody arrested at that point was a juvenile, there weren't a lot of details available. And as far as the public was concerned, it seemed like Greg's murder had been solved.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] They were like, oh, okay, they got the people that did it. Yeah, they were like, oh, hey. Fantastic.


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[Assistant] Now investigators in Derry on the other hand were convinced that there was still a lot more to this story than they were being told.


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[Assistant] And literally all of them were like, yeah, Pam has something to do with it. This random band of teenagers didn't just come up with this plan by themselves.


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[Assistant] So the day after the arrests were made, Pam called Loring Jackson. She can't, she can't stay away. My god, she's like asking to be caught. Oh my god, at this point? Literally. Yes. So she calls him and she's like, can I just please have any kind of update? She said, I'm afraid I know these kids. And then she said, am I in any danger?


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[Assistant] I don't know what she has as far as personality disorders go, but there's a couple in there. I won't armchair diagnose, but the manipulative, conniving, gaslighting going on.


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[Assistant] It's a laird. There's some stuff. It's a laird situation. But this is great, I fucking love this. So she's like, am I in any danger? And he goes...


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[Assistant] He's like, no Pam, you're not. And she goes, how can you be so sure? And he goes, because I know.


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[Assistant] It's heating up in here, baby. Mic drop moment. So, while the state attorney general's office worked to get approval to try all the teens as adults, that's what they were working on.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The media made their way to Seabrook. They were shoving microphones and cameras in faces of anybody even remotely involved.