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[Assistant] So they went in the general direction they believed it to be in, and after wiggling through


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[Assistant] Very difficult and tight alcoves and passages. They thought they had found what they were looking for.


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[Assistant] They only had a light, like a headlamp on, and it was a light from his father's decades old headlamp to show the way, so it wasn't even like a brand new one. Right.


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[Assistant] John entered into a waist-high hole head-first.


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[Assistant] He inched his way into the crevasse with his hips, stomach and hands. And the natural process of erosion in this hole had created what basically was a tight corkscrew of rock.


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[Assistant] That few if anyone had successfully navigated.


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[Assistant] When he realized the passage was too small and tight for his frame, he looked for but couldn't find a space large enough to turn around, so he kept pushing forward, in the hope that he would widen at one point.


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[Assistant] Uh, cause he was thinking he was gonna end up at the end of the birth canal. Right. And it would open up. Of course. But the problem was, they weren't in the birth canal.


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[Assistant] They were in a very poorly mapped section of the cave known as Bob's Push, which is only 18 inches wide and 10 inches high. 18 inches wide? Oh yeah.


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[Assistant] So he's looking into a fissure that drops straight down.


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[Assistant] And gradually you push forward too. It's like a lot of effort, a lot of strength, a lot of energy.


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[Assistant] It's difficult to know exactly what happened, but rescuers believe John sucked in his chest to investigate the fissure.


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[Assistant] So he slid his torso over a lip of rock and down into a 10 inch wide side of the crevice. So he went from 18 inches to 10 inches. But when his chest expanded again, he was wedged.


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[Assistant] With all of his weight pushing downward. And all of his, the blood rushing to his head. Yep. And the more he struggled to free himself, the deeper he slid into the increasingly narrow fissure. This is awful.


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[Assistant] Until he became wedged into a section that was only about eight and a half inches wide.


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[Assistant] It's like when you literally tuck everything in.


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[Assistant] Basically, which is even more suffocating because you're like, you have no room to expand your chest to breathe.


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[Assistant] To make matters worse, as he was sliding deeper into the fissure, one of his arms had been pinned under his body and the other was forced backwards, caught on an outcropping rock.


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[Assistant] On his way in, he had used momentum to wriggle and slide his way forward but without the use of his arms or hands.


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[Assistant] He couldn't push himself backwards. So he can't use his arms or his hands at this point.


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[Assistant] Now according to the Salt Lake Tribune, when Josh learned his brother was stuck, he thought it was the beginning of another family adventure story.


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[Assistant] Because when they were younger, their father had gotten stuck on a similar caving trip. And the story had been this like favorite to tell at family gatherings ever since about like,


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[Assistant] The amazing rescue and like he got out and wow, like what a crazy story. That makes this even sadder. Yeah. So Josh was like, Oh, this is just going to be one of those like, like, I'm so sorry. He's uncomfortable. Like that sucks, but like we'll get, we're going to get him out and then we're all going to laugh about this.


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[Assistant] But as Josh slowly crawled into the cave to reach his brother, the increasingly tight space made him anxious.


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[Assistant] Oh shit. Like this is not good. And Josh said seeing his feet and seeing how swallowed he was by the rock, that's when I knew it was serious. Swallowed by the rock.


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[Assistant] Now wrapping his feet around John's calves, Josh tried to extract his brother and ended up being able to move him a few inches. Oh, and that probably gave them even more hope. Exactly, but with nothing to hold onto and gravity pulling all of them down, John slipped back into his original position. Oh no.


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[Assistant] Josh was like, I have nothing I can do. And he started to panic, so he crawled out of the fissure.


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[Assistant] And made his way to the surface to call for help while one of their friends stayed below with John. Okay good.


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[Assistant] Now confident that help was on the way, Josh made his way back down to where John was stuck and tried to keep his spirits up.


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[Assistant] While they waited for a rescue, they made small talk, they sang Mormon hymns, they were Mormon, and they prayed together to pass the time.


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[Assistant] And after about an hour, they started to hear the sound of rescuers approaching. But by that point, Josh didn't even want to leave him.


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[Assistant] Like he was like, I really don't want to leave him by himself down here. He later said to a reporter, I didn't want to leave him. His life was in that cave, in that little crack.


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[Assistant] Isn't it? Like, there's, I can't think of something more horrifying. Truly.


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[Assistant] Oh, I don't even have the words. Now the rescue attempt that happens here is long, arduous, and equally as terrifying.


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[Assistant] So the three-person team of rescuers arrived on scene a little before midnight.


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[Assistant] And within 30 or so minutes, they'd reached the opening of the fissure where John had become stuck.


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[Assistant] After 20 minutes of slow progress, Susie's headlamp finally found the back of John. And she could see that he was very trapped.


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[Assistant] And what he said when she got there, he heard her coming, and he said,


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[Assistant] She said like, I'm Susie, I'm here to help you. And he said, hi Susie, thanks for coming, but I really, really want to get out.


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[Assistant] That's the thing, and her response, because they were optimistic they could get him out, was, oh no worries John, you're going to be out of here lickety split. Which I'm glad she said that. Of course.


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[Assistant] And you're like, if I could just hit rewind, like, please. So true. That's exactly, it's like, ugh.


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[Assistant] So Susie tied a rope around John's ankles and very slowly worked her way back out to deliver the other end of the rope to the team at the entrance of the cave.


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[Assistant] But apparently the friction caused by the rope rubbing against the various pieces of rock only created more tension and it made their efforts to pull him out.


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[Assistant] Much harder. Oh no. So while the other rescuers worked to come up with a new plan, Susie decided she was going to try to keep John calm and prevent him from panicking.


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[Assistant] And at this point, he can't even see these people, right? He's just looking into like a dark cave.


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[Assistant] And so she tried to move him so that he could be more comfortable, but he was too heavy and she couldn't lift any part of his body because she was so wedged. So she cut off the legs of his jeans to allow a little more space so maybe it wouldn't rub, but it didn't really do a lot to improve his comfort.


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[Assistant] And then she started trickling water from her water bottle down his arm, hoping that some of it could trickle into his mouth.


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[Assistant] Now as they talked and as she tried to keep him calm, she noticed John's voice was becoming quote, more nasal and his breathing labored. She could hear that his lungs were filled with fluid.


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[Assistant] Susie knew John was in big trouble here, but at the time she didn't know how big of trouble he was in.


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[Assistant] Being upside down, your body has to pump the blood out of the brain. Your body isn't set up to do that. The entire system starts to fail. So do you basically have like an aneurysm at some point? Everything just starts failing.


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[Assistant] Now being in that position, his circulation was slowing down, so it was allowing for fluids to pool in the brain and lungs, capillaries to leak, and toxins to build in his blood.


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[Assistant] Dr. Murdoch estimated John had about 8 to 10 hours in there before he died. Oh my god.


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[Assistant] Now while Susie worked to keep John calm, the team outside the cave finally had come up with a full, like a total plan.


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[Assistant] Each piece of equipment had to be sent down one at a time in a process that took nearly one hour for each piece. And he only has eight to ten hours to even live at this point.


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[Assistant] Meanwhile, they're still brainstorming other possible strategies. These people must, like, uh. But this is unprecedented. Like, how do you even? They must be so stressed, and, but like, for them to be just like,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The amount of times they try here and the lengths they go to and the danger they put themselves in and the things they come up with, like, they tried so hard. Like they tried so hard.


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[Assistant] When you get down there, I'm sure Susie and everybody else who ended up like this guy, Ryan, this guy Dave, who goes down there to talk to John. His brother Josh. You hear this guy talking to you and being like, I really, really just want to get out of here. Like, thank you for helping me. Like, please help me.


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[Assistant] Everything in you must want to be like, all I want to do is get this guy out. Like I'll do whatever I can. Like you just want to lift this guy out to his family and be like, he's okay. You know, like that's, that's all they ever want out of a rescue and they're not getting in here. And you have like the weight of the, the world on your shoulders. Yeah. It's, oh, it just must be such tough.


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[Assistant] The physical load, I can't even fathom, like my body won't even...


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[Assistant] Begin to imagine that physical load that it takes, but the emotional and mental load is unthinkable. Unreal.


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[Assistant] Now they ordered air drills and chisels, but the equipment was too large to get down into the crevasse.


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[Assistant] It was impossible. So now he's covered in oil. It's, they tried everything.


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[Assistant] By 4pm the next day, rescuers had managed to pull John back nearly a dozen feet in the direction of the opening.


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[Assistant] And we're beginning to feel optimistic. They're getting closer. But they would sue, and they thought they were going to get him out. They were like, okay, we're moving him. This is working.


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[Assistant] After, you know, they managed to free 16 year old Brock Clark from


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[Assistant] A similar spot, just six years earlier. So they were like, we can do this. I think we can do this.


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[Assistant] But the problem was John was stuck way further down than Clark was and he, and Clark I think was in like a different...


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[Assistant] Spot in the crevasse, and he was also a 16 year old teenager. Right, he's built differently. And it's like, this is a grown man. Like, that's, it's, yeah.


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[Assistant] His heart's working so hard and his body is going through such an excruciating amount of stress that each pull on the rope caused his legs to knock into the wall of the cave and he would have an excruciating wave of pain go through his whole body. And then at this point,


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[Assistant] It gets even worse because they had reached a point in the tunnel where the tight angles meant they couldn't bend John's body backward without likely breaking his legs. Oh my god. And at this point,


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[Assistant] They said the physical trauma of that is something that his body at this point is so weak he will go into shock and die.


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[Assistant] Like he will never be able to survive the trauma. If he was, if he had just gone down into there and broke, and they broke his legs, that'd be different. Horrible trauma. I can't even fathom. But your body isn't in the state where...


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[Assistant] It will necessarily kill you. He is so weakened right now that there's, there's no way he would have survived that.


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[Assistant] I don't even know what to say. So as they're realizing all of this, they realize that the anchors holding the rope on the pulley system were starting to give way.


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[Assistant] So after hours underground, Susie Motola had crawled out because she needed a break at that point. I mean, it's been 24 hours. And she was replaced by rescue worker Ryan Shirts. Like Susie, Shirts was an expert


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[Assistant] Splunker. Uh, he was very familiar with the caves in western Utah and he knew what, what the situation was. He understood the dangers here.


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[Assistant] He said he had to fight back tears knowing how little chance this man had. Cause he's like, I just knew.


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[Assistant] When shirts reached John, John said to him, help me get out. I don't want to be on my head. And he was talking about


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[Assistant] The new position he had found himself in because he had been pulled out of that other crevasse.


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[Assistant] And I guess where he was now, he was kind of on his head. Because the pulleys were breaking, so they had to leave him in that position. And then he said, why did you guys put me here? Honestly, like honestly, this is a devastating story. This is just like torture.


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[Assistant] It's just awful. This is devastating. This poor, poor family. So Ryan Shirt sat with John and tried to keep him calm, keep his spirits up.


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[Assistant] All while the rest of the rescue team was rebuilding the pulley system now.


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[Assistant] And Ryan Schertz said he knew there was really not a lot he could physically do for John.


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[Assistant] But he was like, I just wanted him to know that he wasn't alone. Like he wasn't stuck in a crack alone there.


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[Assistant] So he helped him get water through a long straw attached to his water bottle. He said he rubbed John's leg, hoping that human touch would help calm him down.


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[Assistant] Because it was something they could bond over and it was something that comforted him. And for the most part,


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[Assistant] I guess Ryan, like Ryan really was a calming presence, but every now and then he said the situation just overwhelmed John, and he would become...


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[Assistant] Now, by late afternoon, the rescue team had finished installing the new pulley system and were ready to try once again to extract John with several hard pulls. That's what they were hoping to do now. They were like, we just gotta try.


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[Assistant] And they knew this would cause a lot of serious physical trauma because they were like,


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[Assistant] At this point, we can't slowly try to get them out. We gotta like wrench them out of there if we want to try to get them.


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[Assistant] And Dr. Murdoch and other medical assistants were on.


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[Assistant] Seen, and we're totally ready to administer immediate medical assistance to keep him from slipping to shock and dying once he got out.


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[Assistant] As eight people pulled at the entrance of the cave, Ryan Shirts tried to guide John's body while John did his best to push with his hands.


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[Assistant] Now after about 20 minutes, Schertz yelled for the team to stop and lowered John a little in order to give him a break. And John said, my legs are killing me.


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[Assistant] And then shirts felt, Ryan shirts, the rescuer, felt an explosion of pain and screamed and then blacked out. With the, the rescuer? Yes.


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[Assistant] Under the strain of trying to pull John out an anchor had come loose from the cave wall.


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[Assistant] Sending a meta- metal piece. I think it's a carabiner.


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[Assistant] Ta- I don't- like, you couldn't write that. Like, that is- You would write that and somebody would be like, Jesus Christ. Like, they'd be like, that's a lot. Like, you did way too much.


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[Assistant] How is this kind of devastation happening in this small place? Like I'm- This place feels fucking cursed, dude. And the accident caused the rope to snap and it sent John sliding back into the fissure. No. Where he landed on his head. No.


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[Assistant] Suzie Matola said it felt like a slap in the face.


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[Assistant] Tried his best to explain to John that he had to leave to get medical attention.


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[Assistant] And Dave Shirts tried to reassure John that they were going to get him out, but by that point, it was becoming obvious that...


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[Assistant] The team worked to fix the pulley system, but the tools were too large to get down into the crevasse and Dave couldn't get into where John had landed to even tie a new rope.


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[Assistant] So after a few hours, Dave Schertz was exhausted and radioed to let them know that they'd need someone to replace him.


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[Assistant] And when he reached the rest of the group, Shirts said, he's dying right now.


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[Assistant] He has a heartbeat, but he's had difficulty breathing before I got there. You can't get someone down there before he dies.


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[Assistant] So Brandon Koalas volunteered to go down and to be by John's side.


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[Assistant] Taking, and he took a telecom radio with him so that John could speak to his wife Emily. No.


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[Assistant] But by the time Koalas reached the fissure, John had lost consciousness and he never woke up again.


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[Assistant] A few minutes before midnight, a paramedic from the rescue team crawled down into Nutty Putty Cave and pronounced John Jones dead at 11 56 PM on November 25th, 2009.


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[Assistant] There aren't even words. And then when you hear his wife, when she talks about it,


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[Assistant] Her outlook on the entire thing, I'm like, man, like you're made of different stuff than I am. Like she's just like.


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[Assistant] The strongest lady? She would have to be. She just looks at it a different way.


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[Assistant] And then to have him fall right back down, it's like that fall must have just been, like talk about devastation.


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[Assistant] Yeah, exactly. And I'm sure the rescuers are sitting there being like,


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[Assistant] I know, let me, let me see. And his, Emily's so beautiful, like they're like a beautiful couple. Like beautiful. So sad. It's horrifying. Like whole life ahead.


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[Assistant] And that, and like, just, oh my god. Yeah. Like, whole life ahead. And he was only 26 years old, by the way. Wow.


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[Assistant] A part of the way. Like we're getting there. And then to get the call. That he slid. That he slid right back to where he.


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[Assistant] That I, my brain won't even compute that kind of disappointment, no.


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[Assistant] Truly. You can't ever understand that disappointment unless you've gone through it.


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[Assistant] Now, before leaving the site, Lieutenant Tom Hodgkin, Hodgson from the Utah County Sheriff's Office promised that they would retrieve John's body the next day.


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[Assistant] But he learned that that was a promise he was not going to be able to keep.


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[Assistant] Years later he told a reporter to make that phone call on Thanksgiving morning to a family that is hopeful you will be bringing their son out and they'll get some closure.


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[Assistant] It wasn't an easy phone call to make. So they didn't even get to have Thanksgiving together before this happened? No.


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[Assistant] And they found out that they weren't getting at his body. Cause they couldn't.


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[Assistant] The family was understandably horrified. Of course. But they did eventually understand. Which...


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[Assistant] I can't imagine. Like you just said, made of different stuff.


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[Assistant] These are incredible people. Like you know you have to eventually be like, okay, I have to look at this as like, what can we do? But like, damn.


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[Assistant] They had struggled for hours to move John, just a few feet while he was alive and able to use his hands to like help.


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[Assistant] So the effort required to move him now that he was no longer alive and not able to push himself?


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[Assistant] It just wasn't going to happen. To even attempt the retrieval would require putting a lot of members of the rescue team at risk, which was something neither the family


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[Assistant] Like John's family was like, don't do that. Or the sheriff's department wanted. They all agreed. Like there's no reason to put other people at risk here.


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[Assistant] So their inability to retrieve John's body meant that that was Nutty Putty Cave was his final resting place. His body remains there.


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[Assistant] John Jones was the first death in Nutty Putty Cave.


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[Assistant] But given the previous incidents in the cave and the obvious risk for, risk it posed for amateur and obviously professional cavers and spelunkers.


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[Assistant] State officials voted unanimously to seal the cave with concrete immediately. Well, and especially now that they can't get him out of there, nobody should ever ever go back in there.


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[Assistant] Lieutenant Hodgson told the press, we've suffered a tragedy in this cave that we hope to prevent from happening again.


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[Assistant] Though they were absolutely grief stricken and heartbroken, the family agreed and told the press, we feel like it would be John's will to protect the safety of future cavers.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] They said in time, they started to actually appreciate that John's remains were left in a place that he loved his entire life.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Okay, his wife Emily told a reporter in 2018.


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[Assistant] John loves the outdoors. He loves Utah. He loves wide open space. It's so fitting that it's his spot now.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And that was in 2018, and I also love that she refers to him as like, John loves this. He loves the like, present tense.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And a second concrete plug was put at the main entrance at the top of Blowhole Hill. The plugs make the cave inaccessible.


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[Assistant] But they were careful to create a plug that was not going to interfere with the ecosystem.


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[Assistant] But there would be a lot of effort involved and a lot of cost involved to remove it, but they couldn't possibly.


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[Assistant] So as of now, there are no plans to reopen Nutty Putty Cave. It remains closed. But again, they made a plug there that seals it off but does not interfere with the ecosystem, which is nice.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But that is the Nutty Putty Cave incident and the death of John Edward Jones. That's one of the most devastating cases that we've ever covered. I agree.


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[Assistant] Not even words for where my brain is at right now.


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[Assistant] It's really, really, really horrifying and...


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[Assistant] It's just so tragic. That's the thing. It's just so tragic and unthinkable, like truly unthinkable.


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[Assistant] I can't even fathom. Truly, how do you go on? Can't even fathom.


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[Assistant] And I know I'm saying that a lot, but I don't know what else to say. In this case, my brain won't even compute it.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But I put my bod moisturizer on today, which is like very backwards for me. How do you function? If I don't put face mo-moisture on, I feel like...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You know those cups that influencers carry around that look like this? Oh, I didn't know it was like a thing. Oh, wow. Oh.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Excuse me. Stanley's like, overswept the nation. I don't believe you didn't know that. That's just the name of the brand? I honestly did not know that. Yea, it's like a, it's like these cups, but not- I thought you were talking about like, flat Stanley? Remember when you used to send him around the world?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That's just good. It is, I mean, can you drink water out of it?


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[Assistant] We hadn't even started the meeting yet. We literally clicked onto the zoom and Ash bumped into hers. Her little canteen there.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] No. It's funny, when I bought this water bottle, I, I literally thought to myself, like, hehe, it's gonna piss her off. And then I was like, look at my new water bottle! Trying to be a bitch. And she was like, no, that's not a canteen. No. What are you talking about?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Fuck it up. Exactly. Crossed you right off the list.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It's who I am. You know? But you know what we do have that we can all agree is great? Oh my god, we have something actually really exciting to share with you guys. Oh my old gods in the new. Where are you at over there?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Because guys, we got to partner with Goliath and launch a fucking board game. We have a fucking board game. Morbid has a fucking board game. This is the coolest shit. Alert, alert, alert, alert. It's the Lunar Dial.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Do you just want to tell the moon to fuck off? That's what you want to tell the moon? You don't want to travel and collect full moons? You don't care about tides? I don't understand why you would feel that way. You collect like, moonstones.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You collect moon stones, and yeaah, and those are the full moons, which is so fucking cool. It's very like, high vibration. You guys have multiple moons, like,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So yea, uh, fuckin' look out for the lunar dial, pre-order it on July 17th, gather up your moons and your moonstones, and have a freakin' ball.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Send us pictures of you playing or else you're fake.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Water, that is. I brought my ghost chalice up with me. I wish I could tell you that was a lie. No. She's not joking. Mikey found a ghost chalice. It's a chalice. It looks like the Goblet of Fire. Like a straight up chalice. With Papa. That I'm gonna drink from.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And he was like, touche. Yea, honestly touche. He let it go, cause he was like, whatever answer I get, I'm not gonna like it. So, he just didn't ask any further. You know what I wanna tell you? No further questions, your honor. You know what I wanna tell you?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I'm happy for you. Thank you. You're happy that I'm happy. I'm happy that you're happy. It's a great chalice. We'll post a photo of it. You're so weird.


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[Assistant] I think we're gonna send one to Doug Bradley. I think we already did. Yea, we're gonna send one to Doug Bradley. Cause he also loves ghosts. Brad Dougley. Brad Dougley.


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[Assistant] Uh, but let's get into, you know, this is all fun and games, let's get into the really awful thing that we're gonna talk about. Did you do that on purpose, fun and games? I didn't, but...


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[Assistant] Glad it happened. One of those things. Sorry, I was stalling. Smile because it happened.


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[Assistant] So, this case is called, often referred to as the World's End Murders. Which is very chilling sounding. There's a place called World's End in Boston, I think. There you go. There's also one in Scotland. It's like a weird island thing.


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[Assistant] Oh yea, I mean it's a, this is, I was gonna say, it sounds familiar. Yea, my friends went one time and I didn't go with them because I was being a bitch, but.


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[Assistant] They had met some friends, and we're gonna get into the whole story, but at the time they had met some friends at the World Ends Pub in Edinburgh's Old Town neighborhood.


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[Assistant] It was basically a normal night. It was a normal night but they were celebrating something kind of exciting in their lives. And as closing time came around, their friends moved on to go to a party somewhere else and Christine and Helen started chatting with two men. Alright. They ended up leaving that night and never being seen alive again. Oh no.


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[Assistant] So let's talk about who Helen and Christine are. Helen Scott was born in 1960 to parents Margaret and Moraine Scott.


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[Assistant] She was the fourth child in the family and that included two older half-sisters and a brother, Kevin, who was one year older. Or excuse me, one year younger.


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[Assistant] After Helen was born, the whole family moved to an Edinburgh suburb known as the Comiston district. And Moraine was an engineer with British Telecom and he ended up getting transferred there for work. That's why they ended up moving.


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[Assistant] And according to an author and former police officer on this case, Tom Wood, he said quote, Helen was part of a close and loving family.


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[Assistant] This was truly a family who loved each other. Like this was a safe place. This was a family who encouraged her in every way. They wanted to nurture her big bright personality that she had.


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[Assistant] And they really instilled a self-confidence that allowed her to really flourish in her early years in primary school and become a really great young woman. That's awesome. Like this was truly one of those families that you're just like shit. Like that, they, they love each other. That's a happy house. Like they take care of each other. That's a safe house. That's, they're doing it right.


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[Assistant] And it was in the early mid-1960s that Helen started attending high school. And she did so at Edinburgh's Furhill High School, I believe it's how you say it. The school only had about a thousand students in the entire school. And it was a largely working class section of Edinburgh.


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[Assistant] And like most teenagers, this is when Helen started coming into her own. She was finding what she was interested in. She was really developing a love of fashion, clothing, you know, makeup, music, films. Like she was really establishing who she was at this point.


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[Assistant] And despite being slightly underage at the time, she was 17 and the drinking age in Scotland is 18. Eh, she was there. Uhm, had they reached their mid to late teens, Helen and her friends


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[Assistant] They had really no trouble getting into the clubs and some of the pubs in Edinburgh, especially the less vigilant ones. And by their senior year, they were kind of regulars at some of them, like the Spider's Web, which was a pub in the city center. Oh, cool. What a fun name for a pub. Yea, they have a lot of cool names for pubs here.


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[Assistant] In Boston, we have a few streets that are super, super old, obviously. And those, the places on those streets are out there, like the cobblestone is still visible. The one where we went to the other night? Yeaah, it just always has, like, a different vibe to it. It's almost like you can feel the history. Yeaah, it just feels different. Yeaah.


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[Assistant] But Helen was a great kid. She just was. Like, she was a good kid, she was a good teenager, a good young woman. During her high school years, she got a solid reputation as a very reliable and trustworthy babysitter around her neighborhood. Wow, good for her. She was great with kids. And she often babysat for her older half-sisters, two children.


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[Assistant] And because she spent so much time around kids and really really enjoyed it,


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[Assistant] She had an interest in pursuing a career in childcare. Wow. So she had officially made the decision to start night classes to start going down that professional road in 1977.


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[Assistant] Now at the time she had just gotten a new job working at a kilt shop on Princess Street in Edinburgh's like main shopping district. Princess Street? Yea. A kilt shop on Princess Street. Dreams.


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[Assistant] So she was celebrating getting this new job when she went out on October 15th. She had gone with her friend Christine Edie, who had also just got a new job. So they were like, hell yeah, working girls. Look at us. Now Christine Edie had also attended Furhill High School with Helen.


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[Assistant] And it seemed like Christine was a very normal and kind teenage girl.


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[Assistant] At the time of her death, she had moved into a new apartment with some friends actually and was really enjoying the freedom and independence that came along with it.


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[Assistant] Now upon graduating from Furhill High School, Christine took a job with the Department of Education.


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[Assistant] Before getting a new job that October as a typist with a chartered accounting firm in Edinburgh.


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[Assistant] On the evening of October 15th, she had agreed to join Helen and a couple of other friends, some newer friends.


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[Assistant] For a pub crawl to celebrate their new jobs. Yeah, that's like so normal, you know? Like, how many times have you gotten a text like, hey, we're going out tonight, wanna come? Like, and you head out. This was like every other time they had gone out. But this was just, they just had something to celebrate. Right.


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[Assistant] So October 15th, 1977, like we said, very normal evening for them.


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[Assistant] Helen met her friend Jack, Jackie Inglis at Jenner's store, which was a few doors down from the shop she worked on at, on Princess Street.


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[Assistant] They were also really good friends since primary school actually. Oh wow. And this was something that they often did together.


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[Assistant] So for uhm, but for a night of celebrating a new job, it felt a little more special. So they got together first and the two of them stopped at the Mount Royal Hotel for a drink.


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[Assistant] And then around 8pm they met Christine and their new friend Tony Kivlin at We Wendy's, which was a pub on the Royal Mile, which is Edinburgh's like main street. Main drag. Yeah.


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[Assistant] Now, they went to a few more pubs along the Royal Mile and made their way to High Street in the Old Town District.


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[Assistant] You know, old streets are always wildly put together, and there's not great lighting because of the old, and Tom Woods says that there's a gloomy effect because of this, which I think sounds great.


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[Assistant] Among the businesses that were in the Old Town District at the time were a number of the cities, what they described as more gothic, darker drinking holes. Okay.


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[Assistant] Again, sounds so fucking awesome. I know. So around 10pm, they arrived at the World Zen Pub and they all took over a space near the back of the bar next to a payphone. It was


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[Assistant] They were kind of at each other a little. Oh really? The more whiskies they had. Oh no. They kind of started.


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[Assistant] Honestly, she's not your best friend if you don't like both be like fuck off. Exactly. Now apparently one of the biggest ones that they got into like arguments they got into was when Helen used the payphone to call a boy she liked. This boy was in Coldstream and Christine made a comment about her having to call him on a payphone because he didn't have a real phone at home.


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[Assistant] In statements that were given to police in the following days, people at the world's end that night told investigators that Helen and Christine were quote,


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[Assistant] They got over it. And they were just like, fuck it. Very classic.


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[Assistant] So some of the friends began drifting away from the table as the night went on and finally it ended up being back to the four core women that had started.


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[Assistant] And it was nearing last call and Jackie and Tony decided they had to go to the restroom and when they came back they saw that Helen and Christine had been joined at the table by two men that they'd never seen before.


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[Assistant] Uh, she said he was dressed in basically, you know, 1970s style. He was wearing a brown and white striped bell-bottom pants, in a brown v-neck shirt, and a jersey, you know, like very 70s.


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[Assistant] And the other man was described as being pretty much the same height, same age as the first guy, with short wavy hair, a thick mustache, and a fresh complexion. Ah. Which I don't know what that means, but it sounds great. He was drinking three liters a day. There you go.


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[Assistant] Now they said it appeared that the four were hitting it off. Like they were laughing with each other, having a nice conversation.


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[Assistant] So Jackie and Tony went to the bar and chatted with some friends there because they were like, we're gonna let them have a moment. I think they're, they seem to be having fun.


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[Assistant] These friends that they were chatting with at the bar invited them to another party elsewhere.


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[Assistant] So Jackie and Tony checked in with Christine and Helen at the table and were like, hey, we got invited to this other party, do you guys want to come with us? And Christine said no thanks.


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[Assistant] Helen either didn't answer or Jackie didn't hear it. She said she didn't hear Helen answer.


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[Assistant] Now, as she left the bar, Jackie said she turned around and looked back at her friends who were just getting another round of whiskey served to them by the two men.


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[Assistant] And she said she looked at them, and then she turned back to Tony, and off they went to the party. And that was the last time she saw them. That's awful.


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[Assistant] Now later that night, just after the bars were closing, apparently two police officers were patrolling the high street area just on a normal patrol.


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[Assistant] The police officer said that one of the girls tripped and was actually helped to her feet by the other woman.


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[Assistant] Uhm, the officer said they could hear the two girls kind of bickering a little bit about how they were going to get home. And one of the men said, I'll give you a ride.


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[Assistant] So in their statement to investigators, the patrol officer said that one of the girls sounded very uncomfortable with the idea of getting in a car with a stranger. Yeah.


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[Assistant] Now the light was low and they weren't really close to these, this group of people to get a really good look. So they said they couldn't say for sure that it was Helen and Christine and these two guys, but they were pretty sure that was it. And if it was, then these two were the last two people to see Helen and Christine alive. Okay. Now on the morning of October 16th.


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[Assistant] Maureen and Margaret Scott, Helen's parents, were a wreck.


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[Assistant] Helen had not returned home the night before, and she had never stayed out all night without telling them.


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[Assistant] Margaret literally stayed up all night just worrying about her and just fearing for the worst. Oh no.


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[Assistant] That same morning, Derek and Ruth Taylor, just a random couple, left their home to drive to East Lothian.


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[Assistant] For a picnic on the beach in Long Nidri, I believe it is. Romantic. You know?


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[Assistant] Afterwards, they were planning to walk on the beach together. Like a very cute afternoon. So off they went, they enjoyed a nice lunch together on the beach, and then they went into the, they went into their walk after that. And after walking about a half an hour, they reached a spot called Gosford Beach around 2pm.


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[Assistant] Derek looked ahead of them down the beach and saw what he said he thought.


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[Assistant] Oh my god. The couple ran to Gosford House, which was right on the way and it was very close to them and called the police to report it.


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[Assistant] A few hours later, John McKenzie was out walking his dog through a field in Haddington, which was five or six miles from Gosford Beach. Weird.


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[Assistant] Helen's hands were tied behind her back with what he thought was a cord.


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[Assistant] And John reported he believed she was nude from the waist down, but someone had placed a black woman's coat across her torso and head.


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[Assistant] Now John McKenzie ran home to get his car and he drove to the police station to report everything.


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[Assistant] But police very quickly noted that there were similarities between these two scenes.


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[Assistant] It was first strange that two teenage girls were found at the same time, essentially miles apart in very similar positions. Yeah.


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[Assistant] But Helen had, quote, an imprint left by a stocking which had been tied around Helen's neck and four bruises left by fingers under her jaw.


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[Assistant] And a row of horizontal scratches in front of and behind her ear.


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[Assistant] Something patterned, they said, was what made this happen. Okay. So the news began reporting it quickly, and after hearing a report on the news about a body being found on the beach, Maureen Scott called the police. Oh no. And reported his daughter missing.


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[Assistant] He was told that they had no information on the identity but they would contact him as soon as they knew more.


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[Assistant] I can't imagine hanging up that phone. Just having to wait for that phone call. And being like, is this my child? Is this my child on the news?


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[Assistant] So he said, later Maureen said, later on we learned there had been another person found and then we had a phone call from the police.


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[Assistant] Ugh, it's so awful. And then their fear was confirmed when a few hours later a police officer showed up at their door carrying Helen's black coat. Oh god. Maureen said they brought Helen's clothing and they told us they assumed it was her that they had been, that they had found, but she had to be identified by someone from the family.


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[Assistant] No, thank you. I can't imagine having to do that. It was Maureen who had to, her father had to go down and identify her at the morgue.


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[Assistant] As recent as last year, Detective Sergeant Douglas Kerr talked about this case. He was on this case.


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[Assistant] And he's just talked about how much Helen's parents' reaction affected him.


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[Assistant] He talked about how he had unfortunately delivered many death notices in his career to loved ones, but he said


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[Assistant] But this case has lived with me all my life. I can still see the look of anguish and devastation on the face of Mr. Scott as he looked on the body of his beloved daughter.


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[Assistant] Identifying Christine Edie's body was to be a bit more challenging for dirt detectives because she had moved into an apartment like I said a few months earlier.


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[Assistant] So her absence wasn't like immediately discovered and reported? Right. She would eventually be identified by her mother, Margaret Craig.


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[Assistant] Oh wow. Who'd last seen her daughter the day before she went out with the friends at, uh, the World Zen Pub. Oh, okay. Uh, but they didn't live together, so there wasn't an immediate, like, she's not coming home.


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[Assistant] So their autopsy showed that they had been brutalized. Whoever did this was an animal. They had died.


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[Assistant] Of forms of asphyxiation with injuries showing that they had been throttled and choked with ligatures around their necks.


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[Assistant] According to the courier and advertiser paper, Dr. Robert Nagel, who completed the autopsies,


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[Assistant] Testified later that Christine had pinpoint hemorrhages, abrasions, scratches, a ligature track around the neck, bruising to her mouth, and pressure marks on her upper thighs.


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[Assistant] Her cause of death was noted as asphyxia due to strangulation with a ligature and by gagging of the mouth. Wow. They were gagged with their underwear.


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[Assistant] So she is fixated by being gagged with her own underwear.


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[Assistant] That's so, so horrific. And Helen's injuries were much the same, but also she had an injury that was due to a shoe stomping on the left side of her head. Oh my god. And both young women had been sexually assaulted. Oh no, I knew you were gonna say that. Yep.


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[Assistant] So the horrific discovery of Christine and Helen's bodies sent shockwaves through this small community. I bet. Because it was just outside of Edinburgh. This, again, the high school was like a thousand people. Right. Like this is a small place. Yeah. And it actually happened only a few days after another woman had been found murdered in Falkirk.


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[Assistant] She was discovered in bushes with a bag over her head


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[Assistant] And everyone was pointing out that the murders seemed similar to the unsolved Bible John murders that had happened in Glasgow. Oh shit. Yea, and that was only a few years earlier. Right. And many locals were thinking another serial killer was around. Can you imagine just coming off of that? Yea, and now this happens. And it's unsolved at this point.


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[Assistant] Not equipped for a double homicide or a serial killer. Oh no.


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[Assistant] So the investigation into both murders became under the control of Detective Superintendent George McPherson.


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[Assistant] He quickly placed a commanding officer in East Lothian and another in Edinburgh


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[Assistant] Based on their interviews, the investigators were able to make it like a big map of the pub's interior and they used time logs and people's memory.


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[Assistant] To place each patron in their positions at the bar that night.


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[Assistant] They matched pretty well. So they were like, these are the same guys. Right.


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[Assistant] And apparently they were seen leaving in a dark colored car near Gosford Beach a little before 3.30am the day of the murder. The same description. Oh.


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[Assistant] Uhm, so they were assuming these were all the same guys. At the very least, it was a wild coincidence. Right.


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[Assistant] So the fact that the girls have been seen with two men was enough to at least entertain the idea that there were more than one killer here.


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[Assistant] But evidence of this is, there's more compelling evidence of this in the case. Well, the different like methods of strangulation. Exactly. For one, they had been taken and killed around the same time with the same-ish methodology, but they were found miles apart, so.


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[Assistant] Each was killed, like we just said, with a different method of strangulation. And then the strongest bit of evidence for the two killer theory was the knots used to bind the girl's hands. Christine's hands were bound with a reef knot. Something sailors use, I guess. And Helen's hands were bound with a figure eight binding.


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[Assistant] Wow, interesting. Yeaah. Similar differences were found in the ligatures around Christine and Helen's necks. Uh, Christine's killer definitely had a familiarity with Knott's and Helen's killer not super familiar. Okay.


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[Assistant] So Dr. Roger Eide, who we just talked about, he was 72 and a forensic scientist, he was also an expert on knots. Hell yea. He testified also to the fact that Christine had very likely thought


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[Assistant] Um, Christine's wrists had been bound with tights, like her own tights.


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[Assistant] With nearly 80 full time officers tracking down a ton of information by witnesses, the general public, just anybody they could talk to. Tom Woods said,


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[Assistant] There was a genuine mood of public outrage fanned by an active and imaginative media.


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[Assistant] Now there was a lot of pressure as well to solve this crime as often happens in these. So detectives worked really hard to rule out Helen and Christine's male friends first.


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[Assistant] So this fact led detectives to wonder whether the suspects might be soldiers.


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[Assistant] Now while detectives in East Lothian, East Lothian, I can't say that. It's hard to say. I keep saying East Lothian. Cause it's like your brain is getting ready to do the Loth. Yeah. East Lothian, uhm, and Edinburgh worked


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[Assistant] Around the clock to interview witnesses and get leads and crime scene technicians were also trying to find something from the evidence they collected at both the scenes, just something to


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[Assistant] Uhm, the mo- at that point, the most significant piece of forensic evidence that they got from either scene was semen.


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[Assistant] This would be great evidence later, but was just cataloged in 1977. But hey, they got it. Good for them for cataloging. They knew eventually this could be helpful. Right.


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[Assistant] So, there was that. Uhm, a small team of officers were dispatched at, uhm, after they checked out like the, uh, military garrison. They went to the fashion districts in and around Edinburgh with descriptions and artist renderings of what they were wearing, hoping that they could find somewhere where these men bought those clothes. Right. Unfortunately, they weren't really getting anything. Damn it.


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[Assistant] By the, by mid 1978, what had begun as a very strong investigation and they were going full force, it was kind of eroding into a colder and colder case. Losing steam.


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[Assistant] Frustrated by any lack of progress and without literally anywhere to take this case, George McPherson, the superintendent, made the decision to shelve the case that May. That name sounds so familiar. It does.


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[Assistant] Uhm, from what we could find, uh, it looks like it was just like...


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[Assistant] Because they had to get it off their, their stuff. Like the reason for that was nothing more than just...


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[Assistant] We had to clean house, so here you go, it's your thing now. Yeah. Maybe they had more like resources too. Maybe.


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[Assistant] And they ended up being contacted by an inmate at Saughton Prison in Edinburgh, and this inmate said that his cellmate had confessed to the killing of Christine and Helen. Okay. So the supposed confessing killer actually apparently seemed to have knowledge of the crimes that hadn't been released to the public, including how the bodies had been positioned.


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[Assistant] So it gave a little credibility. But when questioned, the man denied ever having confessed and they didn't really have any evidence to connect him to the crime, so it was just dropped. Okay. He was like, I didn't confess to that.


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[Assistant] So additional claims kept coming in throughout the late 1980s and early 1990s actually. Oh no, you're not going to last that long. Including a lot of women who called in and claimed their husbands ran out on them just after the murders happened and they thought that they were the ones. Wow. But none of those were lead.


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[Assistant] Damn, it's really upsetting that that many women thought that their husband was capable of that.


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[Assistant] But another possibly promising lead came in early 1997.


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[Assistant] So this is when a bunch of underworld type figures were interviewed by the times, like gangster kind of figures, like underworld. You love when I say that. I always love when you say gangster. But that's it. That's what they are. I know, but it's just that it doesn't feel right coming from you, but like I love it.


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[Assistant] Cause they're not, like, you call the, like, like a mob type thing would be gangsters, like. Oh no, even when you just say gangster and you're supposed to, it's just funny, I don't know why. I was like, I don't understand. I didn't want you to say gangsta. Well no, cause it wouldn't make sense. No. But it's just funny. But, you know.


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[Assistant] So these underworld gangsters were interviewed by the times and claimed that the killer was actually an underworld figure known to be like a


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[Assistant] According to- And y'all just kept that in for 20 years? Like what the fuck is wrong with you? Their underworld gremlins themselves. So according to one of the informants, the killer is quote, a pure beast. A few years ago, he abducted the wife of a friend of mine and the beast kept her prisoner for a month. He raped her repeatedly through that time. Oh my god. Yeah.


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[Assistant] So a police source confirmed that the man in question was indeed a person of interest at the time of the murders, actually. And he said he had been in the frame because he was a thoroughly monstrous man at the time.


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[Assistant] He was also known to frequent the world's end. Unfortunately, it ended up being a dead end.


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[Assistant] That sucks that he exists. He's still a problem, guys. Like, he's a big ol' problem. So I hope they took care of that.


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[Assistant] But while the media and the public were focused on, you know, theorizing about underworld gangsters and deadbeat husbands, police in Dalkeith started getting more familiar with the science of DNA at this time. We're in the 90s.


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[Assistant] So we mentioned earlier that among the few pieces of evidence collected during the first investigation, there was semen discovered on Helen Scott's clothing.


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[Assistant] Unfortunately in 1977, like we said, of little use, but very smart of them to catalog it.


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[Assistant] had made it possible to not only identify a person with, you know, certainty using their biological materials.


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[Assistant] But it also made it possible to use those samples to prove or disprove their involvement in a crime. Whoa. Whaaat? In 1988, a DNA profile was created from the semen sample. But at the time, all they could get was the killer's blood type. But they were moving in the right direction. Okay.


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[Assistant] Now a decade later in the 90s, there was more to be found from that sample, and more was found from that sample. During this time, police in Dalkeith were eager to compare the new


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[Assistant] Now more complete DNA sequence in that semen.


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[Assistant] So the DNA profile was compared to over 200 samples taken from male patrons in the pub that night. Not one was a match.


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[Assistant] They also found no matches in the hundreds of swabs taken from known predators living in the area at the time.


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[Assistant] It wasn't even hitting on any of the 1200 suspects flagged in the police national computer. Are you shitting me right now? Yeah.


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[Assistant] This was so frustrating, but luckily it wasn't for nothing, because during this whole process they were able to use the DNA to discover that while Helen and Christine were likely killed by two men,


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[Assistant] One of those men sexually assaulted both girls.


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[Assistant] So there was likely two killers, but one man raped both of those girls. Oh. Yeah. Which was new information and shocking information. Yeah.


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[Assistant] So after 18 months of backbending work trying to get this DNA to nab their killer, they really weren't closer to finding him.


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[Assistant] This is solved, right? It is. At a press conference held in March 1999. Stop it, we're nearing the 2000s.


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[Assistant] A man named Angus Sinclair went on trial for the 1978 rape and murder of a 17 year old girl named Mally Gallacher in Glasgow.


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[Assistant] Sinclair had a long criminal history and it dated back to the late 1950s. Damn. Beginning with like, you know, home invasion, house breaking charges and his early teens. And he escalated to sexual violence and child murder before he even entered his twenties. Holy shit. Yep.


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[Assistant] What's his name, Angus Sinclair? Yep, when he was 16 years old, he lured his neighbor, Catherine Rehill, who was only 7 years old, into a stairwell.


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[Assistant] Where he sexually assaulted and strangled her to death. Oh my god. He then called an ambulance and told them a wee girl has fallen down the stairs. What? Called an ambulance. Oh, he's a scary looking motherfucker. Yup. He was only given ten years for that and served six.


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[Assistant] What? At the time, a psychiatrist who he was being forced to see had this to say about him. When he was 16 years old.


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[Assistant] What the f- So they were just like, yeaah. This psychiatrist literally said, therapy won't help him.


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[Assistant] If you let him out, he will 100% repeat these offenses. And the justice system said, let him out. I guess we'll see. And then he was like, yup.


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[Assistant] So after serving that joke of a sentence, he was out, got married to a wife, Sarah. Might I just say he has the yellowest fingernails I've ever seen in my life. He's disgusting. He's fucking heinous. Don't worry, he's dead now. Die, bitch. Uhm, he also had a son. Oh, yeah.


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[Assistant] Now, he was thought to have also murdered.


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[Assistant] Frances Barker, 37, Hilda McCauley, 36, Agnes Cooney, 23, and Anna Kenny, 20 years old, all in similar ways to Helen and Christine.


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[Assistant] They were all left with ligatures of their own clothing, just like Christine and Helen, and it was all around the same time. And after Helen and Christine's murders, he was identified by a witness in the rape and murder of 17 year old Mary Gallagher.


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[Assistant] Now after this, he suddenly started raping, cause after he got like a close call with Mary Gallacher,


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[Assistant] He suddenly started raping and assaulting children all over the area. It's like he decided, like, I'm getting too close to getting caught with teenage girls, so I'm just gonna do it with children now. Oh my god, this guy's fucking horrible.


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[Assistant] In fact, later in 1982 when he was finally caught for the rape charges, he said the amount of rapes he had committed was probably in the hundreds.


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[Assistant] Jesus Christ, what the fuck happened to this guy? He was sentenced to life in prison in 1982 when he got caught for the rapes. Oh wow, so he was in prison when they found out. Yeah, so he was known to police in Edinburgh at the time of Christine and Helen's murders in 1977 when he was not in prison obviously. Yep. And he was, but he was never considered a suspect.


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[Assistant] That's interesting. I wonder why. It's wild. In fact, despite his having provided a DNA sample in 1999 when he was arrested for the Gallagher murder. You're shitting me. It wasn't until 2004 that his profile was flagged as being a match.


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[Assistant] But by the time Doll Keith Detectives made the match with Angus Sinclair for the semen found on the coat, so now we know he's the one who raped both those girls. Yeah.


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[Assistant] Angus Sinclair had been tried and convicted at this point for the Gallacher murder and was serving a life sentence at Peterhead Prison.


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[Assistant] And that's where he had been serving since he was convicted for three rapes in the 1990s. So this man was just...


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[Assistant] He was just, his cup overfloweth with prison sentences. With nasty. Chillingly, through their investigation, detectives began to see Sinclair developing many, like, they watched through his history.


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[Assistant] Right, and was it the same partner the whole time? So it was definitely this guy for at least a couple of them. Okay. And we'll talk about who he is. I was going to say who the fuck is this guy that like, has no conscious whatsoever. So they didn't want to tip Sinclair off to their investigation or alert the public to the suspect before they were ready to really nail him. So Dalkeith detectives worked very quietly.


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[Assistant] But many journalists and crime reporters had contacts within law enforcement by May of 2004 and so the tabloids started reporting that Sinclair was the top suspect in the world's end killings.


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[Assistant] So hoping to get ahead of them, police held a press conference in Edinburgh that month, and they told reporters that they had been alerted to Sinclair through the science of DNA.


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[Assistant] And we're looking at his possible connection to at least seven unsolved murders in the area.


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[Assistant] Though they didn't at that time reveal any of the names of the victims. Like, it was pretty obvious who they were talking about. Yeah.


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[Assistant] Following that press conference, journalists from a ton of Scottish and British news outlets, a lot of them tabloids.


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[Assistant] Put the pieces together and concluded that Sinclair was definitely one of the two men who had killed Christine, Edie, and Helen Scott.


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[Assistant] So the other big task was now finding the identity of the second suspect.


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[Assistant] They had a DNA profile, but nothing to compare it to.


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[Assistant] So they looked to Sinclair and they just built the case around him looking to his friends, his family, his associates, anybody around him to be like, who's this person? He obviously knows them. Yeah.


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[Assistant] Of course, it was tough because Sinclair had spent a lot of time in prison since the early 80s, so there was a little bit of a gap in his social life.


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[Assistant] Of the five Hamilton brothers, only one Gordon Hamilton was unaccounted for.


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[Assistant] Mhm. His fucking brother-in-law. That's so twisted.


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[Assistant] Nearly certain that their second suspect was Gordon Hamilton, his wife's brother.


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[Assistant] Detectives were pretty disappointed because they found out that Gordon Hamilton had died in 1996. I hope it was really fucking awful for him. So he was never going to be held accountable for this crime. Wow, that's really, really fucking...


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[Assistant] But as much as that sucked, investigators needed to confirm his DNA was a match for the profile they had, which was a little difficult.


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[Assistant] Hamilton's body had been cremated. Of course. So they could not exhume him. Yea, I wonder why that was his fucking wish. Yea, exactly. So detectives determined a personal possession would be probably the next best thing they could get.


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[Assistant] Unfortunately they quickly found that Gordon Hamilton was a very difficult man to pin down.


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[Assistant] And even his family members didn't really have any of his possessions or items that really could give them a biological sample. After months of dead ends, Edinburgh detectives had to get kind of creative. So they located a house Hamilton had worked on many years earlier.


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[Assistant] And after getting permission to do a thorough search of the house from the homeowners, investigators found a small section of like this, some kind of stripping in the house.


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[Assistant] That contained a trace of Hamilton's DNA. Oh shit.


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[Assistant] And despite the relatively small size of the sample, they were able to successfully match the sample to the DNA that they had collected in 1977.


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[Assistant] Proving conclusively that Gordon Hamilton was the second killer in the World's End case.


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[Assistant] Even though he was dead, they did look into his background because they were like, what the fuck.


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[Assistant] And they discovered he was raised in a pretty large Scottish family where the father was very domineering and very violent.


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[Assistant] The children all came out of the home with addiction struggles, a lot of criminal tendencies, a product of their environment. So of course, only a couple of his siblings were even willing to talk to police. Angus' wife Sarah and a younger brother were really the only ones that were willing to talk to them.


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[Assistant] And it was through the younger brother that investigators learned Gordon had begun his criminal careers with Angus Sinclair, which included acts of violence and theft occurring before and after the Edie and Scott murders. What's crazy is this was apparently a surprise to some people who knew them. Like they were like, wow, I didn't see that for them.


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[Assistant] What? Like Scott and... Yea, like they were like, wow, they were violent? That's crazy. And it's like they were the most violent. Right. Sorry, I didn't mean Scott.


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[Assistant] Yeah, it's wild, but together, they were brutally violent. They had not only committed the rape and murder of Edie Scott, but also a home invasion robbery the year prior, where they robbed and viciously beat a man and his daughter, as well as their landlord. Holy shit, what the fuck were they doing? Were they like on shit?


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[Assistant] No. They were just- They just are. Evil. They just are shit. Ugh.


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[Assistant] By the time detectives sat down to interview Angus Sinclair in October of 2004,


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[Assistant] They'd assembled a pretty vivid picture of his personal and criminal history as well as that of Gordon Hamilton. In addition to the murders of Christine Edie and Helen Scott, they were now even more convinced that he was involved in the unsolved murders of Anna Kenny, Matilda McCauley, and Agnes Cooney.


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[Assistant] Uhm, and as well as tons of other assaults. I bet. So Sinclair denied any connection to Gordon Hamilton or the murdered girls.


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[Assistant] Just spent the interview sessions trying to intimidate, or like...


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[Assistant] Like assert dominance over the interviewer kind of thing. Dude, you're in prison for the rest of your life. Shut up and tell us what happened.


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[Assistant] And when he couldn't intimidate them, he quote, according to Tom Wood, he used all sorts of tricks to exasperate interviewing officials to the point where they lost any chance of obtaining meaningful progress. What a douchebag. He was a steel trap. He wouldn't say anything.


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[Assistant] Angus Sinclair had spent nearly three decades in a long-term, very serious relationship with the justice system.


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[Assistant] Or even so much as a hint of emotion from him about it.


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[Assistant] Fortunately, they felt they had more than enough physical evidence to get a conviction. And on January 26, 2006, Angus Sinclair was indicted for the murders of Christine Eadie and Helen Scott. Good, I'm glad he had to face the justice system even. Cause like, you know when they're in prison sometimes you're like, are they gonna try it or? Oh no, they did. And he entered no plea. I didn't even know that was an option. You just said no, thank you.


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[Assistant] The trial of Angus Sinclair for the murder of Christine and Helen began at the High Court in Edinburgh on August 27, 2007.


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[Assistant] Wow. Sinclair of course, he said he was innocent, maintained his innocence, and lodged a special defense incriminating his brother-in-law Gordon Hamilton.


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[Assistant] Yeah, all of a sudden he knows. The special defense said that if any sexual relations took place, they did so with consent. Fuck.


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[Assistant] Right off the bat. So he was just trying to explain away the semen found at the scene. He was like, we had sex consensually. Crazy that you're in here though for a rape and murder. Yeah, that's weird. And I love that he was like, if...


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[Assistant] Now among the witnesses heard in the first few days of the trial was Helen's father.


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[Assistant] Who told the jury of being informed of his daughter's death and Jackie Thompson?


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[Assistant] Uh, who recounted the girl's night out that ended with her leaving her two friends at the bar, apparently in the company of Sinclair and Hamilton.


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[Assistant] Also on the witness stand was John Rafferty, who was one of the police officers who'd seen Christine and Helen with the two suspects outside the World's End. According to Rafferty's testimony, he'd been helping Christine off the ground after she'd fallen when he noticed a shifty man watching him.


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[Assistant] He said, I assumed he was with the girls. So this was another police officer. And he told the jury he wasn't making any kind of eye contact, he was looking away from me.


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[Assistant] He didn't like police officers. Now also on the stand was Sinclair's now former wife, Sarah. I was hoping you were going to say that because you kept saying wife and I was like, she legally separated. She was like, bye bitch. Good. And she told the jury she married her husband in 1970 and they had a pretty decent marriage. She didn't have a lot of like, she was like, I wasn't


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[Assistant] I did not expect you to say that. No, she was like, that's why she was like, this really fucked me up. As soon as you brought her up in my head, I was like, oh my god, I can't imagine what that poor woman went through.


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[Assistant] But she also told the jury that her husband and brother Jordan would often go on weekend fishing trips in the couple's Toyota HiAce car, and I think it's a caravanette, which I've never.


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[Assistant] It's like a caravan, but like a little. But a net. Um, but that was believed to be the vehicle that the girls were transported in. Oh wow. But that vehicle had since been sold and scrapped. Huh, imagine that.


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[Assistant] Now the investigators found what they believed were fibers from the caravanette upholstery on Helen Scott's coat. They didn't have it to match, but they could at least make a, an assumption. Right.


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[Assistant] Uh, but without an interior to match it to, it was pretty circumstantial, if even that. Now the trial was moving along as expected and the prosecutor, Alan McKay, gave his closing remarks.


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[Assistant] And it was all thrown into turmoil on the tenth day. The judge halted the proceedings and suddenly dismissed the charges, citing insufficient evidence.


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[Assistant] But remember, he's claiming we had consensual sex. This motherfucker is already convicted of rape and murder. The decision.


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[Assistant] Outrage to the families, investigators, prosecutors.


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[Assistant] The prosecutors really thought they had a strong case because they did. I was just going to say because they fucking did. But because the jury was barred from several key pieces of evidence, including Sinclair's DNA on the ligature used to kill both women.


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[Assistant] The only remaining evidence was the semen, and Sinclair claimed they had a consensual sexual encounter. That does not prove I killed her.


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[Assistant] Except that your DNA is on the ligature. They even brought up, and this is like pretty graphic, but I think it's important to show you how fucked up this is. Cause they found evidence in the autopsy of trauma.


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[Assistant] But yea, so they, they barred a lot of evidence. The only one allowed was the one that Sinclair was claiming. Consensual, you can't prove that I killed her with that. Which, unfortunately, at its core,


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[Assistant] Yeah, you can't prove that he killed her with that piece of evidence if we're looking at it in a legal pinpointed


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[Assistant] The judge basically ensured that double jeopardy laws protected him from ever being held responsible for the deaths of Christine Eadie and Helen Scott. Fuck this judge. So the decision by Judge Lord Clark to return a verdict of no case to answer outraged literally everybody.


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[Assistant] But then everybody started blaming each other for the decision. Police officers were blaming the prosecutor, the public blamed the police.


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[Assistant] Since the bodies were found on October 16th, 1977.


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[Assistant] We put together a thorough and detailed case for the Crown Office to take to trial and today's announcement is disappointing.


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[Assistant] Essentially claiming that the DNA evidence that links Sinclair to the ligatures was not collected or analyzed by forensic experts from the prosecutor's office and therefore a decision was made to exclude it from the evidence presented to the jury. Fuck that.


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[Assistant] They said the Crown considered that there was sufficient evidence to indicts Angus Sinclair for the appalling murders of Helen Scott and Christine Edie.


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[Assistant] To consider and review the available evidence with a view to deciding how best to proceed with the trial.


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[Assistant] Low copy, low probability DNA evidence found on articles of underwear.


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[Assistant] Which have been used to bind the victims was not led by the Crown.


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[Assistant] Laying aside the evidence which was consistent with sexual contact with the victims, with consensual


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[Assistant] We do not consider that this evidence relating as it did to items of underwear worn by the deceased would have persuaded the judge that there was sufficiency. So they're basically like, yeah, sure.


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[Assistant] Now after 30 years of investigation, dedication, grief.


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[Assistant] Horror. Nightmares. The family of Helen Scott and Christine Eady were just robbed of justice when the trial judge just dismissed the charges. Yeah.


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[Assistant] While the decision was heart-shattering for anyone directly involved in the case, it also brought up a lot more questions, like how Sinclair's very obvious guilt could be circumvented by illegal technicality and poor prosecutorial performance. Like, what?


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[Assistant] Like, it is obvious to literally anybody that he is guilty. Yeah.


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[Assistant] But because of a tiny little loophole. We're just gonna say fuck it, whatever. They don't get justice. And that doesn't even feel like it's like the prosecutor's office is fault. Like that just feels like the judge was like, nah, sorry.


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[Assistant] And I'm like, dude, what do you have to gain? Number one, this guy's in prison forever anyway, so you're not fucking saving his life.


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[Assistant] Tons of reports that directly influenced the Double Jeopardy Act passed by Scottish Parliament in 2011.


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[Assistant] Made in bad faith and questions of mishandled evidence. Yeah, that one was made in bad fucking faith.


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[Assistant] Detectives discovered additional evidence that challenged Sinclair's alibi in the previous trial. Loves it. Including soil samples.


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[Assistant] Dude. That's nuts. I love that they were like, if semen samples don't work for you, let's get some fucking soil samples. We'll use the fucking earth. Maybe I'll get some air samples while I'm at it. I will get all the elements against you. Let's fucking go girls. So this, with the DNA found on the ligatures around the necks of Christine and Helen,


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[Assistant] The soil disproved Angus Sinclair's claim that he was fishing at the time of the death. Yea, go fuck yourself. There's soil in your shoes. And was nowhere near any murder scene.


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[Assistant] Based on this new evidence and now a much stronger case, the Crown was granted permission to retry the case against Angus Sinclair. I'm doing my gotcha dance. So the second trial of Angus Sinclair began October 13th, 2014. Oh my god. At the High Court in Livingston.


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[Assistant] At this time Sinclair pleaded not guilty to two counts of murder.


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[Assistant] According to the defense submitted by Declare, at Sinclair, he was fishing on the banks of the River Forth, somewhere near Cock, Cockenzie Power Station.


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[Assistant] When both McGurls were murdered by his brother in law, Gordon Hamilton. Doubt it!


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[Assistant] As he'd done in the last trial, he again claimed that he'd had consensual sex with both girls. Fuck right off with that. This time the prosecutor, Frank Mulholland, he built a stronger case against Sinclair that


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[Assistant] Everyone's understanding of DNA was a little more robust. Definitely. In his testimony, forensic scientist Martin Fairley told the jury that there was a one in a billion chance DNA on the coat could have come from anyone other than the accused Angus Sinclair. One in a billion. That'll sell it.


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[Assistant] Similarly, forensic scientist Geraldine Davidson, like good, good for you Geraldine, forensic scientist. Let's go girl. Explain the process used to test the samples found on the bindings of both young women as being quote, beyond anything you would normally do in a normal DNA test. So she was like, we went above and beyond, man.


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[Assistant] According to her, the findings provide extremely strong support for the view that Gordon Hamilton and or Angus Sinclair were involved in restraining and strangling both Helen Scott and Christine Edie rather than an unknown and undetective individual.


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[Assistant] In our opinion, the findings are fitting with our range of expectations.


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[Assistant] To Hollyrood Park where he had consensual sex with both girls. Doubt it. Then he left both young women with Hamilton and he wanted to go fishing.


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[Assistant] Two 17 year old girls taken somewhere they didn't want to go in the dark in the back of a van with two strange men with sex on the mind. They must have been terrified. Absolutely. You didn't care that they wanted to go home.


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[Assistant] And in response to him, Sinclair said, no, I just wanted to have sex. Ew, go fuck yourself, dude. He's a fucking demon. He's filthy.


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[Assistant] Yeah, he's literally filthy. Like filthy. That's a perfect word for it. He's a filthy fuck. Ugh. Otherwise, he's stuck to that previous story. He pinned the murders on his brother-in-law who is dead and can't face the charges and just, that's it.


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[Assistant] On November 14th, 2014, the jury deliberated for less than two hours and came back with a


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[Assistant] Fucking riot. Yea. It was a big relief to everybody. It was a big relief to the family members of Edie and Scott, the detectives. In a statement to the press, former deputy chief constable of the Lothian and Borders Police, Tom Woods, said,


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[Assistant] When it happened in 1977, it was like the turning of a page. They looked like young women in their photographs, but really they were little more than children.


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[Assistant] The nature of the crime and the brutality of their deaths meant that a real shock ran through Scotland.


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[Assistant] People still remember it and have it as a point of reference. As each generation came up, they became infected with the determination to see this through.


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[Assistant] So, Angus Sinclair was the first person to be retried and convicted after the passage of the Double Jeopardy Act.


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[Assistant] And Frank Mulholland told reporters the day after Sinclair's conviction, I can assure the public that there is now no longer such a thing as a closed case in Scotland. Just because a murder took place many years ago, it is no less important in the eyes of the prosecution service than the one that took place last week.


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[Assistant] Good. It was also the longest sentence handed out by a Scottish court at that time.


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[Assistant] Angus Sinclair suffered a bunch of strokes.


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[Assistant] Now Helen's father, Moraine, did uhm, he did pass away in 2015. So he did, he was able to see a lot of this happen.


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[Assistant] I mean, it's frightening. I just remember Helena as she was and keep wondering where she would have been today. Would she have been married? Would she have had a family? Would I have had grandchildren? Where'd she be living?


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[Assistant] That's so awful, I hate that he had to spend the rest of his life thinking things like that. But I'm so glad they finally-


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[Assistant] Gotcha. I mean, my god, when you got to like, the part where they didn't, I was like, is this how this is gonna end? And she gave me Terasy Tabasa and this? I could not, cause-


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[Assistant] I mean, these families, and the detectives and investigators, in the case, they all deserve to have this. Fucking.


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[Assistant] Wrapped up in a bow at the end. And I hate that it took that long. I know. Because for those families and those detectives because it really affected a lot of them. They were all talking about like, this killed us. Everybody involved in it. They all had to sit through it for decades and just have...


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[Assistant] Frustration and brick wall and watch that asshole get off the first time. And those, the first people that put it together to spend that long doing that and then to get like slapped in the face essentially.


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[Assistant] The double jeopardy act there. I know, that's the thing. It's so theatrical the way that it all came together. I love that it all came together that way. Me too. It was like Christine and Helen were like working things. Yeah, they were like making it happen. Hell yeah. I mean they made shit happen on this plane. Exactly. Wow.


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[Assistant] Yeah, that was wild. So wild, and I think, uhm,


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[Assistant] There was a few other cases mentioned in this case that Angus Sinclair was, uh, thought to be a part of and is definitely a part of.


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[Assistant] And I'm going to look into those and see if we can do another episode talking about those ones because I want to make sure I can find some information about them, but I think they, I was interested to see what those were about. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Wow.


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[Assistant] Well, stay tuned for that hopefully, and we hope you keep listening. And we hope you keep it weird. But not so weird that this.


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[Assistant] This is a wild case though that I'm gonna tell you today. Oh. It's... What else is new? It's wild. It's got twisties, it's got turnys, it's got uhm, not seraturnys, but we love seraturnys.


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[Assistant] You should listen to her podcast. Voices for Justice and also Disappeared is her new podcast. You should go listen.


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[Assistant] Shout out to Sarah Turney, we love her. Sarah! Sarah! Uhm, but there is some twisties and turnies in this one. It's, uh...


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[Assistant] Like a lifetime movie? It's a whirlwind. It is like this, this-


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[Assistant] Is a movie. Like this entire thing is a movie. It's from the forties. Oh baby. So swanky. Exactly. You know me.


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[Assistant] I have a couple old ones coming up on the roster. You know, it's spooky season. It feels like old timey makes sense. Correct. But.


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[Assistant] Yeaah, this is from the 40s, it's very 40s, uhm, it's got some really, uhm, inept detectives in it. Yeaah, that's very 40s. Which is always fun and very 40s of us. Uhm, and it's in New York.


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[Assistant] Oh my god, I'm working on a New York one right now too. Look at that, East Coast, what's up? What's up? So again, this is a story about lies, some stalking, an attempted murder, and there's tons of twists.


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[Assistant] The girls that get it, get it. Yeah, I was gonna say, I don't even know if I should, I should explain that one. You shan't.


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[Assistant] It's, all you need to know is VPR. Ick yick. Uh, ick yick. Okay, I just lost my tab. Okay. So, we're gonna talk first of all about


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[Assistant] The person that's kind of, there's two people at the center of this story. There's a woman named Olga and a woman named Pearl. I love the name Pearl.


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[Assistant] They were both put into situations that are...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Unthinkable, to be quite honest. So let's start by talking about Pearl, because we're gonna kinda follow her story first, and then we're gonna talk about how Olga plays into this. Okay. So in the fall of 1946, 19 year old recent high school graduate, Pearl Lusk,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Left her father's home in Quaker Town, Pennsylvania for New York City, the Big Apple, where she was


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[Assistant] Just determined. She was gonna start this whole new life. She was gonna be a big city gal. She was ready for it.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And of course, and think about like 1940s New York. Oh, fuck yeah. That must have been a wild scene. Everyone was looking all fabulous. That's the thing, no matter what, even though like old timey stuff,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You're like, yeah, like the shit that was going down in the day, we don't, you don't want to be around for it. It was not like a time to be alive, but this fashion.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I want to look like that. I want to go to there. I want to go to there. Uh, but yeah, so 1946, she's off to New York City to start a new life. And of course she didn't really have a ton of to her name at this point. She's 19 years old. She just graduated high school. So she spent the first month or so living with her mother and stepfather in their apartment in Brooklyn. Cool.


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[Assistant] She was just kind of staying there to get herself on her feet, find a job.


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[Assistant] And it wasn't long until she did find a job as a sales girl at the Oppenheim Collins department store in Manhattan. Oooh, sounds cool. And luckily this was what gave her the ability to get her own furnished room in a building on the upper, uh, the city's upper west side. Okay.


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[Assistant] So now she has a job, she's got some income, she's got a cool place to live. She's feeling like the move was worth it.


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[Assistant] Like she's, she's on her way. She's like, let's go big city. She's like, life is just beginning. Let's go. But now with some cash money flowing in, she's also able to decorate her apartment to her liking, make it like her personality.


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[Assistant] I hope you don't change your life too much. Hopefully it's like in a, like a...


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[Assistant] Now also, Pearl's job at the department store gave her a lot of social opportunities because now she's around people her age, she's meeting all these people.


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[Assistant] Things are going well, you're meeting new people, you're going on dates, everything's great.


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[Assistant] And on Thanksgiving Day that year, she was approached by a stranger while riding the subway on the way to visit her mother for Thanksgiving Day.