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[Assistant] Also, these are like 14 year old boys and girls that you're being like, I think you're just too scared to admit that you got him killed. And it's like, yeah.


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[Assistant] Sheriff's deputies searched the shoreline and the surrounding area. They were hoping to find a campsite, a party spot that they could be like, here it is, this is where you went into the water.


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[Assistant] In the absence of any evidence to prove that anything else but accidental drowning had happened here.


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[Assistant] The Columbia Sheriff, County Sheriff's Department went with the accidental drowning theory and the case was closed. Wow. That's pretty quick. That's it.


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[Assistant] This was very little comfort to the Steiners because obviously that it was quick.


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[Assistant] There was like a lot of, uuuh, like it seems like that's probably it. Like, that's not very comforting.


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[Assistant] And they still had no answers. No real answers. What had happened? They didn't find a spot.


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[Assistant] They had no one that has admitted that they were out partying with him or that they had come and got him. And they know they're some man.


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[Assistant] All you're telling me is that you're pretty sure that he drowned? Like if anything, you're just making more confusion. It's awful. And they were just left to wonder what happened to him. That's terrible. And their grief and confusion was made even worse because there was odd evidence left in the house that night that he went missing.


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[Assistant] There was the slit in the screen and there was also muddy shoe prints suggesting that someone had to come into the house while everyone was sleeping and Chris had left with whoever it was.


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[Assistant] But there was a lack of any other mess or struggle evidence which indicated that he knew whoever had come in and left with them willingly. Right.


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[Assistant] So that was even weirder, that they were like, it seems like somebody else was here.


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[Assistant] But again. Oh, that's freaky. Yeah, isn't that so spooky?


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[Assistant] Take a look at his shoes. Did he have that kind of shoe? With that tread on the bottom?


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[Assistant] More than a year was going to pass before they would get any more information about what actually happened to Chris Steiner.


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[Assistant] 911 dispatchers in Columbia County received a very scary and unusual call from a panicked teenage boy. Oh. He claimed he'd been kidnapped, tortured, and locked in a closet for two days by his teenage neighbor, Joe Clark. What? Yup. The dispatcher traced the call to a home.


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[Assistant] And officers arrived at the scene very quickly, only a couple minutes later, where in this scene was Joe Clark's home.


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[Assistant] Where he shared with his parents. I was gonna say he lives with his parents, correct? Yup. This is where they discovered 13 year old Thaddeus Thad Phillips. Stop. He was disoriented and suffering from severe dehydration, broken legs, and other bruises and injuries. Holy shit. And he had broken out of a closet.


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[Assistant] Now first responders rushed him to St. Clair Hospital. He was immediately taken into surgery for the broken legs. They basically had to save his legs. They were so broken. Wow. Like they were so shattered in so many places that they weren't sure they were going to be able to save his legs. Holy shit, that's like on another level.


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[Assistant] Like an actual child. Meanwhile, Baraboo police waited for 17 year old Joe Clark to return home. And when he returned home, they immediately took him into custody without incident. Who the fuck is this kid? Oh. So Thad Phillips had a terrifying ordeal.


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[Assistant] He, his ordeal had begun two days before this, shortly after midnight, on Friday night, July 28th. Dad was watching television with his sister.


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[Assistant] His five year old sister, by the way. And this was the last time either of his parents saw him before he went to bed. Oh my god.


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[Assistant] Right, that's the scariest thing to me. Like, they're not j- they're not out, they're not walking down the street, they are in their own fucking homes. Like, he's hanging out with his five-year-old sister. Yeah.


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[Assistant] Now at some point, Thad had fallen asleep on the couch with his five year old sister, right? As we just started talking about that.


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[Assistant] And he thought he was awoken by his parents trying to lead him into his bedroom. Yeah. So, this was not his parents. This was his teenage neighbor Joe Clark who had walked into his fucking house and woken him up on the couch.


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[Assistant] He lived like a half a mile down the street from the Phillips house and that didn't see, like, couldn't, like, get his bearings. That this was him, he was disoriented, he was only half awake.


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[Assistant] So he didn't really like fight back or question a lot when Clark helped him off the couch and out the door.


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[Assistant] But, at the, and then Thad's father, Donald Phillips, woke up around 4am, and he went to the living room to make sure the children had gone to sleep in their beds, and he only found his five-year-old daughter sleeping on the couch, and no Thad.


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[Assistant] And he was like, never would he have left his five year old sister alone, sleeping on a couch. Like he never would have done that. He would have carried her into a room. Of course. So he was like, what the fuck is going on? And more confusing,


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[Assistant] His shoes, his sneakers were exactly where he'd left them earlier that evening, so wherever he went, he went barefoot.


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[Assistant] Yeah, he was like he, that was his pair of shoes. How haunting would that have been? Yeah.


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[Assistant] So the Phillips had only recently moved to the area a few months earlier, too. Like a welcome to the neighborhood.


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[Assistant] And neither Donald nor his wife really felt comfortable going to a lot of the neighbors for help because they didn't know them. Yeaah. And they were a little...


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[Assistant] At this point, they were probably concerned, like, I do, I don't even know these people. Is it one of them, right? Yeah. So they started, they spent the entire morning checking any place they thought that could have gone.


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[Assistant] Like the Columbia County Fair, the Baraboo swimming pool, they went to a camping spot at the Baraboo River.


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[Assistant] Only less than a mile away from their home.


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[Assistant] So, by the time they'd arrived in Joe Clark's, excuse me, the time that he had arrived in Joe Clark's bedroom, Thad was definitely, like I said, more awake and more...


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[Assistant] Like, what the fuck's going on? So he was very confused about why he was being brought there in the middle of the night.


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[Assistant] And Thad had seen Clark in the neighborhood. They've never really spoken.


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[Assistant] And they had a four year age difference. So like they never really would have hung out or been friends anyways. But Clark told dad he just wanted to hang out.


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[Assistant] And that's why he had brought him to his house. That's why I abducted you. I just want to hang out. Dad accepted the explanation. I think it was probably because he was so out of it. But after a very short period of time, he was like, I would like to go home.


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[Assistant] It's like 3am. And to be honest, he might have accepted the explanation in my opinion because he was like,


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[Assistant] Okay. And didn't remember what happened after he pushed him onto the bed. I bet. And he said when he woke, when he woke up,


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[Assistant] He said that Thad was bellyaching about his legs.


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[Assistant] Uhm, what? Which, Joe Clark is such a manipulative piece of shit, sounds like it. Like, I love, my favorite excuse for these fuckers is always, I blacked out.


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[Assistant] You went out of your way to break into this boy's house and steal him off the couch next to his five year old sister. And then you just blacked out. But then you just, you didn't mean to hurt him though. Like nothing was going to occur. Like you're an idiot.


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[Assistant] No, according to the report filed with the Sauk... Sauk? Sauk? Sauk? That's really hard to say. It's probably like Sauk. Sauk. I think that's probably more like it.


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[Assistant] South County Sheriff, yea that makes more sense. Sheriff's Department. Once that was on the bed, Joe Clark, this is really graphic by the way, I just want to point this out. If you don't like bones and breaking bones. Oh I don't, can I go? I mean hopefully the name of the thing kind of made you stay away if that's something you don't want to listen to.


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[Assistant] But uh, Joe Clark grabbed him by his left ankle and began twisting until the bones in his ankle broke. Goodbye.


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[Assistant] Over the next two days, Clark subjected Thad Phillips to brutal outbursts of violence and that included Joe repeatedly jumping on his legs, causing fractures to both femur bones.


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[Assistant] That's the thing, he's like not a like massive kid. No. But it's like, it was just the rage and violence that he had.


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[Assistant] And there was more injuries on top of that, like he had contusions, he had abrasions, and he was also severely dehydrated.


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[Assistant] Because he wouldn't eat or drink anything during the time because he was scared that Clark was going to poison him.


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[Assistant] Now when he wasn't physically torturing Thad and breaking his bones, Clark was taking immense pleasure in psychologically tormenting him.


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[Assistant] Joe told Thad, quote, he was fascinated by busting people's bones.


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[Assistant] What? And that he had done this to at least two other boys.


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[Assistant] One of whom, he said, was Chris Steiner. And did that know Chris Steiner? He was like, uh, I know that name. Like he'd heard of him? Yeah. And at one point, he said, quote, Clark had exposed himself, this is very upsetting by the way.


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[Assistant] He had exposed himself and proceeded to masturbate in front of Thad and placed a pillow over Thad's face to smother him, though it's unclear whether he was doing this in an attempt to kill him.


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[Assistant] What you find out is that like this kid, Joe Clark, and he's not a kid at 17. No, he's an animal. He's a fucking monster. He literally got off on suffering. Like watching someone suffer. Like he's a straight up monster. Oh my god.


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[Assistant] On Sunday, July 30th, Joe had left the, had to leave the house. So he carried Thad's body like broken body.


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[Assistant] And you know, this guy wasn't carrying him in a nice way. So this guy, this poor kid that has two shattered legs from the waist down, they're just.


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[Assistant] Broken. He must have been in like complete shock. Oh, I can't imagine the pain. And like-


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[Assistant] And so Thad is in the closet with two broken legs. He's been psychologically and physically tortured. For two days, dehydrated as hell.


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[Assistant] And he sees a guitar in the closet and he's like, well, this is my only chance. So he uses the guitar to break a hole through the door.


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[Assistant] Like bust through the door. How this kid had any strength to do that?


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[Assistant] I have no idea. And he was able to unlock it. He dragged himself down the stairs with two broken legs. And you know his legs were banging on every step along the way. He found a telephone and he called 911. And by the way, no parents around at this point.


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[Assistant] The Phillips family were relieved that Thad had been found and they raced to St. Clair Hospital. But they found that doctors were now trying to put several rods and pins and stabilizers in Thad's legs, which they were like, what the fuck? Like, what do you mean?


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[Assistant] And Donald Phillips told investigators that he'd never seen Joe Clark before. Donald is the father.


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[Assistant] And he said, as far as he knew, Clark wasn't friends with his son. He was like, I don't know who this kid is. Like I've never seen him. And at the time, Phillips was like, this must be some kind of like one time freak attack. Like what the hell is this? Like everybody was just like, he must have snapped. Like what is going on?


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[Assistant] And they hadn't heard dad say, hey, he said he did this to Chris Steiner. Oh shit.


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[Assistant] Now while doctors went to work on saving Thad's legs, again, they had to work to save them. They were thinking they were going to have to amputate both of his legs.


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[Assistant] He's a little cutie. And mentally what his state was in, I can't even imagine. He probably had to like learn how to walk again. Cause he was like awful. He would berate him and scream at him. He would like say awful things and then he's standing over him like masturbating while he's suffering. That's so fucked up. How do you get past that?


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[Assistant] Well, sheriff's deputies transported Joe Clark to a juvenile detention center and they sat down for an interview, which I'm sure was a terrifying interview.


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[Assistant] Now at no time during the arrest, interviews, or trial, did Joe Clark really become forthcoming or honest with anybody? I'm not surprised. Um, yeaah. And initially, Clark was held on kidnapping charges.


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[Assistant] So he's an actual predator. He's like a stalker. Like he was watching Thad Phillips in his own fucking yard on several occasions, then waits for it to look like his parents aren't home.


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[Assistant] Steals him off the fucking couch. This guy had no idea, I know he's doing much worse things, but it's like, he had no idea if the parents were home or not and he's just leaving his five year old sister on the couch.


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[Assistant] He said when he showed up at the house at midnight, the door was unlocked. And so Clark just let himself in the house. Yeah, it's definitely your house now.


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[Assistant] And he found Thad sleeping on the couch with his five year old sister, and he said he quote, assisted him off the couch. Oh yeah, you're so great. And then he said he walked slash carried him into his house.


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[Assistant] Now beyond that, he said that he, again, blinked out. And doesn't remember anything that happened. But two days. Doesn't remember a damn thing.


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[Assistant] Now based on Thad's report that Clark, cause now he had said, hey, by the way, cause he was with it enough to say, by the way, he said he did this to Chris Steiner.


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[Assistant] Sheriff's investigators in Columbia County reopened their investigation into Chris Steiner's death, and we're very eager to find out what Joe Clark knew.


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[Assistant] So when Steiner's body was discovered in the Wisconsin River that previous year, again, he had been in the water for nearly a week and it was, the decomposition was considerable.


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[Assistant] Well it's like, they don't deteriorate, but it's like...


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[Assistant] It's tough to figure out what is post-mortem injury and what is peri-mortem, pre-mortem, like there's no...


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[Assistant] It's hard. It's very hard, especially in a river like that when you can slam into things and break bones.


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[Assistant] I'm a little confused why broken bones weren't discovered here or noted from what I, but I don't know. I'm just saying to me I'm a little...


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[Assistant] But that's just me. That's weird. That's weird. That's suspicious. That is a little weird. So Steiner's body was actually exhumed and re-examined for this.


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[Assistant] But I imagine that's probably because they went in with a pretty preconceived notion that he had accidentally drowned and had left his house on his own.


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[Assistant] So this is a good lesson for not going into something like this with a preconceived narrative of what went down.


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[Assistant] After an x-ray, the coroner reported that Steiner had indeed suffered broken knees and broken ankles, very similar to the injuries that Dad Phillips had. Holy shit.


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[Assistant] And the findings of the second autopsy and their implications came as no surprise to Kathy Steiner.


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[Assistant] He also knew that Chris's brother was not going to be home that night.


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[Assistant] Ugh, so disgusting. And according to Kathy, Joe Clark had been hanging around her son a lot in the days before he disappeared.


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[Assistant] And she said that Clark was quote, very domineering and said he quote, hung around younger boys because he could bully them. So he's a disgusting predator. Yeah, he's a fucking weirdo.


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[Assistant] As the coroner's office conducted their second autopsy of Chris Steiner's body, investigators served a search warrant at the Clark home in Fairfield, Wisconsin.


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[Assistant] Among the evidence seized in the search was quote, a 48 by 40 inch plywood board with quote unquote satanic writing. An illustration scribbled on it.


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[Assistant] A film canister, quote, with possible marijuana seeds. Remember, it's the 90s. Yes. Uhm, a leg brace and a body brace. Several horror films on VHS, which by the way, Dave found out which horror films were, like, among those. Oh shoot, which ones were they?


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[Assistant] And I love it because Dave, when he wrote this to me, was like, these are the films that were found so, among other things, Jill Clark had terrible taste in horror movies.


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[Assistant] It was witchcraft, which is, I don't know which year, there's a few witchcraft movies, but none of them look like they're pretty awesome.


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[Assistant] I want you to look this one up, guys. Children shouldn't play with dead things. Oh, what the fuck? It looks, if you look at the IMDB page for that, it has like a little trailer for it or some little clip, it looks ridiculous and so weird.


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[Assistant] And he also had close encounters of the third kind, so he's not killing it in the horror game here. Definitely not.


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[Assistant] So that was found. There was also, and this is the most chilling to me, they found several sketches of house interiors in the area.


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[Assistant] Horrifying. That is so chilling. Horrifying to me. They found that broken guitar that Dad said he used to get out of there. And they also discovered three lists that were titled Get To Now, Can Wait, and Leg Thing.


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[Assistant] And each of these lists had several names of local boys in the area. I don't know were they ever told. I don't know if they were ever told. I hope they weren't. But they were literally on, you were either on a list, get to now, can wait, or leg thing.


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[Assistant] It is, and it's like, again, where the fuck are the parents? Not even, we're gonna find out where they were these, these two days.


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[Assistant] But where the fuck were you before that? That your kid is drawing sketches of interiors of homes and writing lists of boys in the area, creeping on boys in the area and you have no idea. Like what are you doing? Like you gotta do something here.


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[Assistant] Now, with Clark being relatively young, 17 years old, his crimes being fucking brutal to the point of stunning seasoned investigators, and his history of getting in trouble, there was some pause as to whether the... soak?


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[Assistant] Sauk. Sauk. I can't fucking say that word. Sauk County Juvenile Justice System was even equipped to handle a case like this because it was also going to attract a lot of public attention and interest. But after two days of debate and consideration, Judge Virginia Woolf


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[Assistant] Which I was like, what a badass name. Ruled that Joseph Clark would be tried as an adult.


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[Assistant] If convicted on all counts, he was gonna get about 170 years in prison. I hope he got all of those. So the waiver of Joe Clark into the adult court meant that the offender's name could be released to the public. So of course, this made people very interested in this case and knowing what the fuck his motives were. Like what is going on here?


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[Assistant] It's wild. So according to Clark, Joe Clark's father, Ron Clark, we're getting into the parents now,


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[Assistant] Joe was in a motorcycle accident in May of 1993, the year earlier, in which quote, he was thrown 30 to 40 feet through the air and landed on his head. And he said, potentially causing some brain trauma. And his father said that maybe he had kind of snapped. He was a real hot tempered after that. Now the following year,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So the following year, things took another really difficult turn for, um, Joe Clark, according to his parents. He had gotten into this car, this motorcycle accident, and the following year, Chris Steiner was found dead.


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[Assistant] Apparently kids at school immediately and regularly taunted him about the death, saying that he had done it.


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[Assistant] And I wanna say, parents, does that concern you at all? That his entire peer group believes that he killed one of their own? Like what is making them think that? Like I know kids can be fucked, I understand that, but maybe sit him down and be like, why are they saying this?


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[Assistant] Why are you just going, wow, fuck, that's crazy. That's real fucked up. Like, sit down with your fucking child and go, why does your entire school think you killed this boy? Right. Because if this is just like a


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[Assistant] We need to do something about it, but like if this is based off of things you have done or said, then you need help, my boy. Like that should be the discussion. We need to get you some help even if you are falsely admitting to this or alluding to that you did it. You need to get help and we are here to help you.


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[Assistant] So during her testimony in the Phillips trial, Joe's mother, Bertha Clark, said to the jury that Joe was genuinely distraught over Steiner's death, and it caused a noticeable change to him.


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[Assistant] But she said, but what I think is when she says he was genuinely distraught, I think what she means is he was trying to act distraught. Because it's like, you're forgetting that he did it.


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[Assistant] He brutally tortured this child to death. So, no.


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[Assistant] And she said Joey was hurt because his friend had died and people were trying to blame him for it. Could you imagine how that would make him feel?


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[Assistant] Like, I'm sorry girl, what? So they didn't believe that he did it? No. And also it's like, I'm sorry, can you imagine how it makes Chris Steiner's parents feel? Right. To know that your child, your 17 year old child, abducted him and murdered him? Abducted him from his home? From his bed?


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[Assistant] In his bedroom, dragged him to this house and tortured him for god knows how long.


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[Assistant] But Joe's parents also, uh, came under a little scrutiny after this. One would think. Because they were trying to figure out, everybody's trying to figure out what the fuck is an explanation for this kid's violent anti-social behavior here. And how the fuck did this happen in your home and you had no idea. Exactly.


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[Assistant] Now, on the evening that Thad was abducted from his home, the Clarks were visiting their daughter in the nearby portage, and they weren't planning to return until the following day. So they had left Joe alone in the house for most of the weekend.


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[Assistant] Like a felony here. No, that's not crazy at all. His father told reporters, we called Friday night so it's not like we were out of touch with him. Yeah. So that's fine. Whatever.


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[Assistant] The house was in a state of big disarray when they arrived. The kitchen was strewn with beer bottles.


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[Assistant] And when they looked in Joe's personal journal, which was taken into evidence, he details his parents extreme alcoholism. And he's at one point he says, mom and dad are downstairs getting drunk again. I don't like admitting it. Not even in my journal. That's sad. It is sad.


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[Assistant] Now according to Joe, his mother drank routinely. During an interview he was like, she drank routinely and


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[Assistant] Intensely to the point of passing out all the time. Wow. She said that's not true. She had never drank to the point of passing out that's not true.


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[Assistant] And of course the press and public at this point are hearing all this stuff and they're speculating on Clark's possible motive and the circumstances that led him to become this.


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[Assistant] But they were gonna have to wait for the actual trial to get any real side into his psychology and they were gonna get it. Oh god. So initially Joe Clark's trial for the crimes against Thad Phillips were gonna begin in early September.


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[Assistant] And it was gonna be presented in two parts. The first was gonna be...


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[Assistant] Basically to determine did he commit these crimes? And the second was going to say, did he do so?


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[Assistant] Because of quote, mental defect or disease, so insanity.


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[Assistant] Uh, but when he appeared before a circuit court judge on September 5th, 1996, Joe pleaded no contest to the charges against him. Interesting. So the guilt and innocence phase was moot now. They didn't need it.


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[Assistant] Now all they had to do was determine whether he was mentally incapacitated when he abducted, tortured, and attempted to kill Thad Phillips.


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[Assistant] So the trial to determine his competency began September 16th, 1996.


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[Assistant] Uhm, during this time, his defense attorney, Mark Frank, presented the case for insanity.


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[Assistant] Frank's case really rested largely on that head trauma thing, and the potential brain injury suffered when he was thrown from, I think it was a dirt bike more than a motorcycle in 1993.


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[Assistant] According to medical records, he suffered a blood clot above the covering of the brain, not below it.


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[Assistant] Which made a quick recovery after surgery. But since the accident, Frank told the jury that Joe Clark quote, has had and continues to have an abnormal condition of the mind.


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[Assistant] Now according to Frank, the defense attorney, the injuries that he got from the accident required treatments, including having arteries to the brain cauterized, which could affect mental processes. He called several witnesses who also gave testimony saying,


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[Assistant] That there were dramatic changes in his behavior in the years since the accident. He had hallucinations.


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[Assistant] Under cross-examinations, several of these witnesses were a little less effective than they were when they had been, uh, initially presented by the defense. Joe's mother Bertha, for example. And this, this part annoys me, how they went about this, cause I think there was just a better way to go about it, but that's just me. Okay.


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[Assistant] Bertha had to walk back a lot of statements about his, um, his injuries because she made them seem worse and worse and worse and definitely was it like overplaying them? Sure. Uh, but when prosecutor Pat Barrett came to cross examine her,


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[Assistant] They basically said that the woman's 8th grade education could not be expected to understand arcane medical terminology. And it's like, I don't think we need to do that because I don't care if you have an 8th grade education or what.


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[Assistant] If it's your child, like, you know, you know what I mean? Like, I don't think, I don't think that's a great way to go about it. I think that's kind of like, poking. Yeah, it is.


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[Assistant] That's the thing, that's just kind of like lll, and actually to demonstrate this?


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[Assistant] They handed her a paper clip and a ruler on the stand and asked her to tell the paper clip's size and centimeters.


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[Assistant] Because regardless, yeah, that's the thing, it makes me uncomfortable. I was like, that's not a good, I wouldn't feel good about that. Like it's just, I understand that like we're trying to prove that she's really not a great witness. But like you're taking mansplaining to the next level.


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[Assistant] She, you can, we can tell that she is lying and over exaggerating things and that she is not a great credible witness. And if you can do that without pointing to her education.


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[Assistant] Uhm, and although she was not an effective witness when it came to describing the physical trauma her son suffered in the accident,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] She did insist that she'd seen a big change in her son after the accident, which could absolutely be true.


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[Assistant] She said there's something terribly wrong. He needs psychiatric treatment.


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[Assistant] Which is like, okay. Correct. Did you try to get him any?


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[Assistant] And Barrett countered this statement by producing a big amount of reports from various school and social service agencies who had all done assessments of Joe in previous years after he had punched another student and threatened to kill a teacher, among other things. So there were warning signs here.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The fact that he had been, he was, um, evaluated for psychological impairments after that as well, and there was, it was an unremarkable report. Like not.


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[Assistant] His parents had at no time tried to get him help before this. Before sitting on the stand and screaming at everybody that he needs help. Seems convenient. None of them had even lifted a finger to try to get him help.


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[Assistant] Regular witnesses, like lay witnesses. Uh, yea, no expertise to speak on physical, mental, or emotional health of this child, uh, before or after the head injury.


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[Assistant] And none of the, they had four psychologists evaluate Joe Clark after his arrest and none of them were willing to support a diminished capacity defense.


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[Assistant] And as if the prosecution is well executed for the most part.


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[Assistant] The absolutely horrific ordeal for the court. He said he grabbed Mike's throat and twisted my right ankle. I could feel it snap.


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[Assistant] He said he pushed my leg up at an angle towards my head. He kept pushing it and pushing it until it broke.


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[Assistant] He also told the jury early on in the ordeal, he had asked Clark if he had ever done this before and Clark responded saying, do you know Chris Steiner?


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[Assistant] Wow. And according to Thad, Joe Clark also told him that there was an unnamed boy he had paralyzed.


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[Assistant] Yup. And the boy's testimony was so like heart wrenching and compelling.


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[Assistant] Now, among the last and maybe the most important witnesses to be called by the prosecution was well-known forensic psychiatrist Park Dietz.


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[Assistant] He had actually testified in the Jeffrey Dahmer case, the Ted Kaczynski case, and Betty Broderick.


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[Assistant] Deet said Clark is faking his amnesia and falsely claiming every kind of hallucination known to man in order to avoid responsibility for his crimes.


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[Assistant] Uhm, and he said as evidence of deviant pathology, he said that


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[Assistant] Clark wrapped Thad's legs in ace bandages and put three pairs of white


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[Assistant] And the fact that he masturbated in front of the injured victim showed he was aroused by making people suffer.


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[Assistant] The jury deliberated for just one hour before unanimously rejecting the defense's claim that Joe Clark was suffering from any kind of mental incapacity when he kidnapped and tortured Thad Phillips.


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[Assistant] The verdict really wasn't a shock to anyone in the courtroom.


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[Assistant] Uhm, an observing attorney in the courtroom that day actually said he had sympathy for Mark Frank, the defense team, in the defense team, he said


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[Assistant] It was quote, a dog case, but somebody had to take it. So basically they're all like, yeah, you're not wanting this one. Uh, moments after the verdict was read, Thad Phillips was smiling and hugging Pat Barrett and he was very happy with the outcome of the trial he told reporters.


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[Assistant] At the sentencing hearing on November 14th, Joe Clark was sentenced to a hundred years in prison for the kidnapping and assault of Bob Phillips. Girl, bye.


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[Assistant] Compensatory damages and 21 million in damages to the victim. Holy shitake mushrooms.


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[Assistant] The judge ruled that he was, that she was gonna allow him to make money from the case so that he could pay this. Okay. She said given the sensational nature of this case, it is entirely possible that the defendant could reap some financial gain through media coverage in the future. Okay.


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[Assistant] Some of the most important parts of this was that they needed to connect Joe Clark to the murder in 1994 of Chris Steiner.


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[Assistant] And Clark had been among the small number of potential suspects that had been interviewed.


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[Assistant] Following the discovery of Steiner's body. Oh wow. Yea, and Steiner's parents had strongly suspected him of involvement in the death, like from the beginning.


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[Assistant] So investigators were, gators pretty much were like, okay, we got our guy. And their suspicions only grew when following Clark's arrest the previous year, a second autopsy of Steiner's body had shown those injuries that were so similar to Thad.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And then dad's testimony that Clark had just admitted to him that he had killed Chris Steiner, that was really the last piece of evidence that they needed.


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[Assistant] So less than a week after the verdict was read in the case against Clark for the attack on Phillips, Columbia County District Attorney Mark Bennett announced that he was going to be filing criminal charges against Joe Clark for the murder of Chris Steiner.


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[Assistant] Jo Clark's parents, they spoke out against the County, the Columbia County District Attorney's Office. They accused investigators of misrepresenting the facts of the case. And they said, quote, we're talking about two kids who got in a fight. The police made up the rest of the story.


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[Assistant] Obducted and tortured somebody and was like convicted of it. Like, it's sitting in prison as we speak. Like, I don't know how you deny it when this kid called 911 from your fucking house. How do you deny this? That's just like...


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[Assistant] And you have a broken closet door to prove that he broke out of it. It goes beyond denial. Like you can't, that's ridiculous. Like are you kidding me right now? And now you're gonna say that they're railroading him when he admitted to killing this other kid in the exact fucking same way? Like yea, it sucks that your son is a murderer. But you gotta come to terms here.


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[Assistant] And Ron said that's the charges they wanted to bring in the first place. Thad Phillips was just a way to get there.


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[Assistant] Thad Phillips was in your home, dude. You mean the fact that your son like absolutely abducted, tortured, and tried to kill Thad Phillips in your home?


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[Assistant] That was just a convenient way for them to get him on murder charges. I don't understand how these people can't, like. That's the thing. I understand that it's, I can't even fathom how hard it is to come to terms or grips with your child being this fucking level of a monster. But don't speak again. But it's like, you can't. You're sounding


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[Assistant] Like, Thad's bones are broken because they just wanted to get a murder conviction on this random kid? Like, I don't understand. Like, no.


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[Assistant] So the preliminary hearing was to be held in early October.


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[Assistant] And Thad Phillips was going to be the state's main witness in the case.


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[Assistant] Although they had other evidence, his testimony was really gonna be, that was already known to the public. It was pretty much key to prosecuting the case. But a few days before the hearing was to begin.


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[Assistant] Uh, named Michael. Thad and a friend had threatened to kill him.


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[Assistant] And we're entering his home without permission, so he shot Phillips in the back.


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[Assistant] Yeah. I didn't see that coming. Yeah, nobody did. Apparently Thad recovered by the following month and in early November,


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[Assistant] Joe was formally charged with three criminal counts, including first degree intentional homicide of Chris Steiner. But that was like, a what? Was that in trouble? I don't think he was in trouble. Because he was the one that was shot.


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[Assistant] Woof. What a life. I was just gonna say, like, Jesus, like, you are very young to be having all this stuff happen.


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[Assistant] In their testimonies, both parents told the jury how they discovered their son was missing, the frantic search that followed, and then them finding out that Chris's body was found in the river.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Kathy Steiner told the jury about the argument her son had had with Joe Clark that afternoon. Oh right, I forgot about that. And the significance of which was compounded by Thad Phillips' testimony in which he detailed the extent of his own ordeal in Clark's confession to the murder of Steiner. So they had everything they needed.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now, there was a lot of overlap between the two cases, obviously. Uhm, and the Steiner murder case kind of unfolded pretty much the same as the Phillips case did. A lot of the same evidence, many of the same witnesses. And this time, however, Ron and Bertha Clark attempted to provide an alibi for Joe.


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[Assistant] They, they told the jury Joe was asleep in his bed on July 3rd, 1994, the night that he was, uh, Steiner was believed to have been abducted. And you're just telling us this now? How convenient. Well, and the prosecutor quickly challenged that. Uhm, she confront, they confronted Bertha with the photographs of empty beer cans in the house.


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[Assistant] And basically they said if this was indicative of a pattern, we really can't trust your alibi. True. And it's the truth. Yeah. And that's the, the whole point of this is to...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You know, discredit the witness. Of course. Now after several days of testimony, the jury sided with the prosecution and he was found guilty for the first degree murder of Chris Steiner.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Two weeks later, he was brought before Judge James Evanson for sentencing. Um, Evanson called Clark a mean, sadistic killer, and noted that the evidence was overwhelming in proving Clark's guilt, despite his continued statements of innocence.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, before passing his sentence, Judge Evanson asked whether Joe Clark had anything to say to the court. And he said, I've done nothing wrong. You're condemning an innocent person. For sure.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now, outside the courthouse, his parents said the sentence was basically bullshit, and they called the trial a witch hunt. Yes, for sure. A witch hunt! Like, you're j- What?!


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[Assistant] It's not like he's this innocent boy that they plucked out of nowhere. He was, there was a boy in his, in your house.


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[Assistant] Calling 911 with broken legs, saying that this kid had abducted him from his house. I, I can't with these people. Ugh.


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[Assistant] Doesn't change the fact that he's in jail for 270 years, so.


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[Assistant] Uh, in the fall of 1998, Joe Clark did appeal the ruling in the Phillips case.


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[Assistant] Uhm, and apparently challenging the factual basis for his convictions on the homicide, mayhem, and mental harm charges. Excuse me? What? The petition said that Clark had been wrongfully convicted of mayhem. This blows my mind.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Because mayhem is defined as an act committed by one who with intent to disable or disfigure another, cuts or mutilates the tongue, eye, ear, nose, lip, limb, or other bodily member of another.


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[Assistant] So Joe's lawyer said, well, due to advances in science and medicine, that Phillips didn't suffer any permanent damage.


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[Assistant] Oh my god. So his client could not be guilty of mayhem as it's defined by the law. Oh my god. Wow. I gotta ask sir, how the fuck do you sleep at night? Like that is, that's.


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[Assistant] You go home and you put your fucking head on a pillow, like damn. Yea, I don't know about that. I know just, I know like defense attorneys. Have a hard job. Have a very hard job. Some of the hardest jobs. And I know you gotta do what you gotta do.


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[Assistant] Like you gotta let this one go to be saying that, that due to medical advances, dad didn't suffer any permanent damage. Like how about permanent mental damage? Are you fucking joking? And you're literally saying, well, if it was like back way back when and this happened, sure, he could be cause it would be mayhem, but because we're smarter now and technology has advanced, we can't do that.


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[Assistant] Luckily, the court justices disagreed with that argument and they upheld the original finding.


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[Assistant] It is reasonable to infer that Clark knew that these injuries would disable his victim from escaping, especially in light of Clark's additional threat to paralyze the victim if he tried to leave the house.


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[Assistant] Therefore, the trial court's findings of a factual basis for mayhem was clearly not erroneous.


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[Assistant] Now additional challenges were made to the attempted murder and mental harm to a child charges. Oh shit. Which I'm like, you gotta stop. Yea, like, there's, where is the line? And they were trying to do it the same way, with the strict interpretation of the law. Like looking for a loophole, essentially. And these arguments were very unpersuasive, all of them were upheld, which is like,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You are really going after mental harm to a child charge based on strict interpretation of that law? I would never. Like, dude, I... That I don't get.


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[Assistant] Uhm, there was a second appeal that was filed in March 1999, and it argued that several pieces of evidence in the Steiner murder case, specifically Thad's testimony and the list of names discovered on those lists in the investigations, they lacked merit. What? And the verdict should be reversed.


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[Assistant] I don't think so. Essentially what the petition argues is that because these pieces of evidence were from a separate trial


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[Assistant] From the Thad Phillips trial. They should not have been allowed to be used in the murder trial. And the justices were like, no.


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[Assistant] They said the trial court properly exercised its discretion in determining that the evidence was relevant for purposes of motive, plan, intent, and identity and in determining that its probative value was not outweighed by unfair prejudice.


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[Assistant] After reviewing all the evidence, the ruling was upheld. So, Joe Clark is going to be in jail forever and ever and ever. Forever and always.


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[Assistant] Wow, that was something. That was a really intense case. Very upsetting. I feel so bad for... In a lot of ways. There's a multi-layered.


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[Assistant] Yeah, and now Chris Steiner's family now knows what he went through before he died, and it's like, that's even worse.


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[Assistant] Like it's, like they have, it's closure is such a weird word we always say, but they have that closure of knowing what happened now instead of just wondering what happened. But my god, at what cost? I know.


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[Assistant] I honestly do. I hope they got it together. I hope they were able to accept.


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[Assistant] Hopefully, healthily. Yeah. Like hopefully you got it together. Yeah. You know, but oof. That's a sad story all around.


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[Assistant] Hey weirdos, I'm Ash. And I'm Alena.


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[Assistant] What if you were trafficked into the inner circle of a cult and signed a billion-year contract at 13? What would you do? This Is Actually Happening is a weekly podcast from Wandery that features extraordinary true stories of life-changing events told by the people who lived them. Follow This Is Actually Happening on Amazon Music or wherever you get your podcasts.


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[Assistant] Hey Prime members, you can listen to Morbid early and ad free on Amazon Music. Download the app today.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And I think I'll love this next tale too. Ooh, this is a good, this is a good title. I'm getting hoarse. Ooh, that's not the title. Uhm, it's entitled, we could have been on Dateline. Oh no, that's not good. No.


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[Assistant] It says, hello, I've attached a listener tale about a close call on vacation. I call it, we could have been on Dateline. Thank you for reading.


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[Assistant] Well, almost all of us. One of us doesn't like spooky things. It's probably my fault for making her watch The Exorcist when she was 12. Sorry Jodie. Sorry Jodie. Sorry Jodie. I'm just kidding.


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[Assistant] My grandfather owned a townhouse in Lake Tahoe and offered it to me and some friends, uh, for a week as a graduation gift.


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[Assistant] Let me just say that we were good girls. Like, really good girls. We created a pyramid of soda cans that we had consumed above the fireplace, not beer cans. Oh my god, you're me. We went to a museum. We swam in the lake.


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[Assistant] The bathroom had two doors, one that led into the master bedroom and another into the hallway. So you could walk from the master bedroom through the bathroom to get into the hallway.


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[Assistant] There was a queen sized bed against the back wall and a little love seat next to the door that led to the hallway. The master bedroom had a huge skylight. It also had a door that led to the outside. We never used this door as it went down a long flight of steep stairs to the grassy common spaces between the two, uh, between the townhouses.


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[Assistant] Well, one night after drinking more soda and watching The Cutting Edge or some other 90's rom-com, we fell asleep.


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[Assistant] It's important to note that at this time, Jodie had forgotten to pack pajamas. Oh, that sucks. And had just purchased some that day on a trip to Target, my favorite place. She and I had been friends since we were two, so we didn't super care about sharing a bed and undies.


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[Assistant] At some point during the night, I woke up from a deep sleep and noticed a large full moon illuminating the bedroom. At first, I wasn't sure what had me wake up and I lay there taking stock of the room. It was then that I heard loud snoring.


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[Assistant] Around the same moment, I also realized that Jodie was saying something to me in a whisper voice. Obviously the snoring had woken up Jodie too. I responded, probably in a louder voice, that I thought, why is Emily snoring so loud? Jodie whispered back,


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[Assistant] It was then that I realized there was a very large man. What the fuck? Sound asleep on the love seat on the other side of the room next to the bedroom door. Perhaps three feet from our bed. Are you kidding me? Thank God Jodie had woken up and made a plan because I was still processing the situation.


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[Assistant] She whispered to me to get out of the bed on my side, the furthest away from the man, and quietly go through the bathroom door so we wouldn't have to walk right next to him to get out of the room. Remember, this is 2000. We don't have cell phones. So in order to get help, we have to call from inside the house.


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[Assistant] Yeah, Jodie knows what the fuck is up. She's good. She is, she's preparing for the next spooky thing, you know? And she calls 911 from the kitchen phone. I can hear the operator ask, what's your emergency?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] No, we went to sleep and when we woke up, he was just there, asleep on our couch.


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[Assistant] Operator, you're sure you don't know this person? You know what, let me go check.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Oh, it's just Glen. Oh yea, I forgot. Glen comes over and falls asleep sometimes. Jodie, no! Operator, what's your address? Pause for us to frantically find the address of the townhouse on a brochure or something on the kitchen counter. Operator, you need to get out of the house immediately. The police are on their way.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Fuck, I almost did it again. Marinara sauce. Marina security has been alerted. Get out of the house. Holy shit. Jodi, but our friends are still asleep upstairs. Operator, the police will be there soon. Get out of the house.


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[Assistant] As fully grown adults, we wondered why we didn't go wake up Emily and Erin to get them out of the house. But at the time, it just made sense to just get out. Okay, well you were teenagers.


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[Assistant] We hang up and I'm fairly certain Jodie put the knife back so we didn't meet the cops with a large knife in our hands. You coulda. And head to the last set of stairs in our bare feet. Remember how Jodie had just purchased pajamas?


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[Assistant] It felt like the police and the marina security were there within seconds. We waited outside for a minute while the police officers ask us about the situation. Again.


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[Assistant] Eventually we see what seems like an eight foot guy walk down the stairs escorted by two different police officers. Behind him, in PJs and with their eyes as wide as I have ever seen them, walk Emily and Erin.


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[Assistant] We spent the rest of the night playing Monopoly or some other game that we found in the condo because we certainly weren't going back to sleep. We definitely made some comments about how we could have been on cops, or worse, Dateline if we'd actually gotten murdered.


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[Assistant] The next morning we all called our parents and told them that we had to call the police, but it wasn't because of anything we had done. Trust me. Remember, we were good girls. They were all thankful we were okay and the lock got fixed within an hour.


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[Assistant] It's girly, me either, but don't keep it so weird that you fucking steal some chloroform out of a fucking place where they keep chloroform.


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[Assistant] The ladies, we'll call them Amy and Sarah, spent a lot of time in class, in the lab working on research, or in the library writing up their findings.


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[Assistant] If I was an English teacher, a plus. A plus. A plus plus plus.


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[Assistant] They built up the area into a rich, successful neighborhood by the 1960s and it appeared with urban, no it had disappeared. Fuck. Sorry, my contacts are getting so dry.


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[Assistant] By the 1960s, it had disappeared with the urban renewal that was happening in Detroit.


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[Assistant] That does suck. All of that to say, this building was old and creepy as fuck. Hell yea, thanks for that little history lesson. I like it.


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[Assistant] People with mental health issues can be doctors as well. Hell yeaah. Hell yeaah.


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[Assistant] Let this be a lesson to the doubters. A mentally ill black girl who was covered in tattoos who grew up well below the poverty line her entire life is going to be a doctor.


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[Assistant] Uh, she started coming home mid-afternoon a few days a week. I didn't think much of this because she was in her fifth year working on her dissertation, so I figured writing at home was better for her zen or for her writing zen or whatever. I would say hi in other pleasantries. She would always simply nod and disappear into her room.


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[Assistant] There were instances a few days later when Sarah came home early while I studied at the dining room table. I smiled slightly and asked her a question about a professor whose lab she worked in. Hey, how's Mr. Miller doing? Nothing.


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[Assistant] She just stared at me with a small pleasant smile on her face. Thinking she just didn't hear me, I repeated the question. How's Dr. Miller? Again, nothing, just that stare.


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[Assistant] Thoroughly freaked out, I tried to shake it off and focus on my little doctor notes.


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[Assistant] I stared a hole through my laptop while Sarah chatted eagerly about her day and flitted around the apartment, never breaking the stream of consciousness flowing from her lips to take a breath.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Shortly Amy was also doing the jingle at the door and stepping over the threshold. Now that there was power in numbers, I worked up the courage to ask Sarah another question. Hey Sarah, did you come home for lunch today?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I tried to downplay the question because I was questioning my sanity at this point. I said, oh, I thought you came home a couple hours ago. Must have been another day I was thinking of.


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[Assistant] Doppelganger- gangers are a sign that bad things are coming. Are they not? That's what I've heard, so.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And I wasn't particularly interesting in finding out what final destination shit was afoot. Yeah, me neither. But I wanna know.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Until one night. To preface, I have the bladder of a small puppery.


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[Assistant] I, I just don't even know what to say. I think I genuinely, this is so foul, but I think I genuinely would have found a bottle to pee in that night. Yeah. I'm not jokes.


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[Assistant] Just hold on to your butts, you know? Okie dokie, Smokey. Well, we love ya, and we hope you keep listening. And we hope you keep it weird!


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Decades before Anna Delvey began scamming her way into high society, Christian Karl Gerhart's writer was infiltrating America's most elite circles with little more than a fake name and a lot of charm.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Bold, ruthless, and willing to kill, Gerhart's writer embarked on a caper across the West Coast, successfully evading the FBI for decades. Hi, I'm Saachi Cole, co-host of Wondry's podcast, Scamfluencers, where we unpack the lives and schemes of some of the biggest scammers and con artists.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] In our recent two-part series, Three Weddings and a Funeral, High Society's top social circles become a playground for a fraudster. Follow Scamfluencers wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen ad-free on the Amazon Music or Wondry app.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It smells so fallish cause we've got the pumpkin clove, we've got like pumpkin pecan and waffles, freakin' all the pumpkin.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Body Works. I know we were talking about it the other day on the episode and we were like, Drew went to Bath and Body Works and got her- it is Bath and Body Works, right?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I love it. No, it smells really good in here. Uhm, speaking of things that I said the wrong way actually, I'm pretty sure a couple weeks ago I said that I got my eyelashes laminated and before everybody comes for me or before you go to your lash person and ask if you can get your lashes laminated, the answer is no. I got my eyebrows laminated.


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[Assistant] Uhm, but yeaah, anyways, so that's a quick little correction. Uhm, so yeaah, Drew's gonna be on this episode because Elena and her little fam fam are on just a quick little vacay, but don't worry, she will be back actually


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[Assistant] Well, technically you'll feel like she's back on Wednesday because we got to do this really cool collab episode that's coming out on Wednesday. And then I think Drew's probably going to join me one more time for Listener Tales and Alina will be officially back for our Monday episode. I don't know, I think that's what's going on, but you


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[Assistant] Okay, so yeah, I thought that I was going to be telling Alena this story, so uhm, definitely hold onto your butt, Drew.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, it's going to be a lot. I think you were in the living room last week when I was watching the documentary. Oh, yes. Yeah. So I'm going to be talking about Kelly Cochran today. She's also known as the Devil Woman of Michigan.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, investigation discovery. So if you have discovery plus, check it out. I think it's, it's either three parts or four parts. I can't remember, but it's called Dead North.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Okay. And then I also read a book that's called Where Monsters Hide, and that was by M. W. Eh, nope. It was by M. William Phelps.


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[Assistant] I did, yeaah. So it's in Michigan and in, uh, Indiana. Okay. Hey, Caleb.


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[Assistant] Alright, so in October of 2014, when Chris Regan was reported missing by his ex-girlfriend Harry O'Donnell, nobody really expected this like tangled mess of spider webs and scary shit and just horrific overall stuff. You say spider webs? Yea, cause they're like yucky. Oh, okay. Just like a trail of like yucky.


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[Assistant] So around the time that Chris was reported missing, he actually was really supposed to be starting over. He and his son were planning to move to Asheville, North Carolina together.


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[Assistant] And honestly, it would be like the perfect place for the two of them because they both absolutely loved the outdoors and they were already planning all kinds of adventures together and they were just like really stoked to move out there together.


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[Assistant] Now, Chris was a classic outdoorsman. While he was actually serving as master sergeant in the Air Force, he was on the Air Force road racing team as a category 2 cyclist racer. And I didn't know what that meant, so I looked it up.


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[Assistant] So I'll let you know in like two seconds. He loved riding bikes and he was really good at it. And anybody in that high of a category for racing, like a category two.


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[Assistant] From the sounds of it, like literally any outdoor activity would have been of interest to him. Yeah. So like, just like us.


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[Assistant] I actually invited somebody on a hike, uhm, one of my, one of my friends. I was like, oh, do you want to get together next week and go on a hike? And then I looked at the text like, bitch, who are you? Like, why are you inviting people on hikes? But I'm trying to get into fitness.


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[Assistant] He got a job at a factory where they made all the parts that would be used on Navy ships. Uh, his particular role at that factory, he was team leader. So he would oversee any major project and his coworkers really looked up to him. They had a lot of respect for him and even like the higher ups who were higher than him and the company, they loved him too.


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[Assistant] They all said that he was incredibly organized that he paid attention to detail.


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[Assistant] He was always on time showing up for work at 5am on the dot, and he was just always in a good mood.


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[Assistant] So Chris's time at the company though obviously was coming to an end because he was moving with his son.


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[Assistant] In fact, he had already got a job lined up in North Carolina, and right around the time he disappeared, he was actually supposed to be heading into North Carolina, heading out there to do a routine drug test before he was like officially hired, but he pretty much had the job.


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[Assistant] Now, Chris didn't do drugs, so there was nothing to worry about there. But what was worrisome was that he wasn't answering any texts or calls from the son that he was moving with or from his ex-girlfriend Terry that he was still friends with. Now, things were especially troubling to Terry when she got a call from one of Chris' co-workers at the factory.


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[Assistant] This coworker wanted Terry to know that Chris's car was parked at the Bates Park and Ride, and it had been there for a while.


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[Assistant] So, Terry was more than freaked out because she was like, this car has been parked there multiple days in a row and there's no sign of him coming or going. And the co-worker was like, no, it's been in the same spot.


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[Assistant] So when she first contacted the police, they were actually a little bit suspicious of Terry herself. They were worried that, you know, maybe she's some kind of jolted lover, she's jealous that he's moving, la la la, whatever. But the more and more that they started talking to her, they were like, no, like she's definitely distraught, like she very much loves him and actually


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[Assistant] It was the police chief Laura Frizzo who plays like, obviously she's the police chief, but she plays a major part in this case. And she said that when she was talking to Terry, she was like there was just something in her eye that wouldn't have been there if she had been involved in this. Okay.


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[Assistant] They actually, oops I just hit my microphone, sorry. They actually met when Terry was working as a teacher in Iron River, Michigan and Chris was actually still in the Air Force. But he decided to move out there while they were dating. I think it was when he was already retired from the Air Force.


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[Assistant] But things in their relationship started to sour when Terry suspected that Chris might be seeing another woman behind her back.


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[Assistant] Never good. So unfortunately, Terry's suspicion did turn out to be true. Chris was having an affair and he was having an affair with a married woman that he worked with, Kelly Cochran, also known as the Devil Woman of Michigan.


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[Assistant] So it was something that he tried to keep very under the radar, this affair, and when people started talking at work, like Chris knew that Kelly maybe had led on to something.


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[Assistant] And in my personal opinion, I feel like he wanted to keep his affair with Kelly private for many reasons. But I think the biggest two that at least I can think of are number one, he valued his job and he was very well respected at his job. So he didn't want to lose it or have his reputation tarnished by some tawdry affair.


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[Assistant] I think the way that we can put it is just that he and Kelly were from two different walks of life. Many would describe Kelly as quote unquote rough around the edges.


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[Assistant] If you have learned literally anything from this show, it's that criminals get creative. And not every home security system has the technology to outsmart them.


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[Assistant] It's advanced technology, stops intruders in their tracks, and provides layer on layer of protection 24-7 for me and my family. I love it for like a number of reasons, but what I really love the most about Simply Safe is that it's perfectly customizable for your home. It doesn't matter how big or how small your home is, there's something that is for everybody.


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[Assistant] We have the window sensors, the glass break sensors, the entry sensors, the panic button, the freaking alarm that if anybody tries to break in it's gonna be like a Led Zeppelin concert in my neighborhood, that's right, don't try me.


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[Assistant] Simply Safe's monitoring agents truly care about your wellbeing and they're highly trained to help keep you calm and safe during stressful situations, staying on the line with you until help arrives.


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[Assistant] So there were other factors too. There was a 20 year age difference between the two of them. And of course the fact he was already seeing somebody. Was he older?


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[Assistant] So, Kelly wasn't from the area. She had actually moved pretty recently to Iron River, Michigan in February of 2014 with her husband Jason.


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[Assistant] And the funny thing is that like even her mom was like, I never suspected that the two of them would have gotten together. Yeah, that's crazy. It kind of seems like everybody was a bit surprised when they decided to start going out. Like they were friendly, but


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[Assistant] And then when she was 18, she was kicked out of the home because she wasn't following any of the rules there either.


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[Assistant] But then, she kinda just started getting her shit together and decided that she wanted to go to college. Okay.


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[Assistant] I'm not sure if she was still using drugs, but she was like, you know what, I wanna go to college. Now, it turned out that her neighbor Jason wanted to go to the same university that she did, Purdue.


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[Assistant] And around that same time, she was actually spending more and more of her free time with Jason. I think the other thing was that it was just like...


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[Assistant] Like you and I know too, cause like when all your friends leave for college, I think you start to cling on to people, like more than you usually would. Oh, totally. Like, yeaah. I was gonna share a story and then I was like, probably won't.


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[Assistant] So yeaah, whatever, they start dating, you know, maybe they also thought each other was cute and like they enjoyed their time with each other. Because the thing is, like I said, they'd always hung out while they were growing up, but it was usually with groups of people. And then as they got older, it was a little more one on one and it got more romantic as the relationship developed.


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[Assistant] While Kelly was at Purdue, she studied psychology, sociology and forensics, interestingly enough.


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[Assistant] Okay. Like, the study of being social.


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[Assistant] Uh, they got married in the Methodist Church in 2002, and after college they opened up a business together, uh, right after they got married. So right after college and right after they got married. They would service people swimming pools, that was their business.


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[Assistant] Uhm, but pretty much right after they were married, Kelly's parents kinda noticed a change in Jason. They said that he wasn't as talkative as he used to be. He and Kelly were arguing more and more than they had in the past. They said they didn't see anything physical ever go down between them while they were living at the house, but


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[Assistant] So they do, and they go out on their own. Their company's doing pretty well, but about 10 years into it, Jason's body gives out. His back can't handle the stress anymore. He's having really bad back pain. He wasn't able to get work done like he had in the years previous, and then that started taking a toll on his mental health.


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[Assistant] And then things got worse because his pain reached the point where


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[Assistant] Let's just say he was no longer able to have a sexual relationship with Kelly or anybody for that matter. Because of the pain.


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[Assistant] So things have gotten pretty bad overall and they decided around 2013 that they needed a change and that's when they decided to move out to Iron River. They later claimed that part of the reason they moved back was that pot had been legalized in Michigan and it was something that would help with Jason's back pain. But what didn't help was Kelly having an affair.


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[Assistant] So back to Terry. Like I said, Terry had her suspicions when she was with Chris, and that was part of the reason why they had decided to call it quits. But right around the time that he disappeared, the two of them actually seemed to patch things up.


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[Assistant] And Terry said to the police she had spoken with Chris recently and that they were even planning to spend Thanksgiving together, but that all communication between them ceased out of nowhere on October 14th.


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[Assistant] Now, ultimately, detectives were able to search Chris' home and car.


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[Assistant] So when Chris's apartment was searched, Terry was there, and she was absolutely shocked at the state this apartment was in. I said earlier, Chris was known as a very organized person. And people would say that all his T's were crossed, all his I's were dotted, but the apartment was like the antithesis of who Chris was said to be.


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[Assistant] His laptop was left on his desk completely open and there were notes that he was taking right next to it just like right on top of the counter. He would have never left those out.


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[Assistant] There were cabinets that were just left open. Dirty dishes all over the place that were from like takeout.


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[Assistant] But this was so drastic and Terry said she had been with him when as he was packing up his apartment and she was like, no, no, no, he had a streamlined process. He had like lists for everything. He was doing each room like one, one at a time. It wouldn't have looked like this. He would never leave the apartment in such disarray.


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[Assistant] And there were other troubling things too. His medicine was left at home, and this was medication that he would need to take daily, and he wouldn't have left home permanently without.


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[Assistant] His Mazda pickup truck was still parked out front with his kayak top tied on top of it.


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[Assistant] So he, uhm, he also had plans to sell that truck before moving, so she was kind of surprised that it was still there. And then there was a folder on the floor with a letter inside from his doctor. Now the letter was for him to bring when he had gone to that drug test for his new job.


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[Assistant] It stated that he was taking Percocet for a recent knee surgery and it was prescribed. That way it wouldn't raise any alarms if it came up on his chest. Okay.


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[Assistant] And then the investigators were actually able to get in touch with that company that he was going to be working for.


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[Assistant] And that company let them know that not only had he not shown up for his drug test, but he actually hadn't answered any follow-up calls. And the supervisor there kind of assumed that Chris had found another job and that he was kind of screening his calls because he wasn't gonna end up working for the place that he'd been hired at.


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[Assistant] And before this call, the investigators thought, you know, maybe Chris just decided to start moving a bit early, but then the state of his apartment, the call with the new employer, and what they would find soon in his car would tell them otherwise.


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[Assistant] So they search his apartment, like I just said, things aren't right. So then they're like, we gotta get to his car, we gotta see what's going on in there. So they go to the park and ride where Chris's car was left, and again, they're able to gain entry, like I said. And there were a couple things left behind that just made it more and more likely that he hadn't just gotten up and walked away from his life.


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[Assistant] He'd also left his water bottle behind, which was like super unlike him.


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[Assistant] And on top of that, there was a weird post-it that was found in the car. So all these other weird things are lying around and then they find a post-it.


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[Assistant] And it seemed to be directions to somewhere. It read, 424 feet stop sign left, through 4 way stop, left on side street to yield sign, left over creek root and alley, brown house.


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[Assistant] The directions led the investigators to somebody whose name had come up a couple times already in this investigation. Could you guess who?


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[Assistant] So, the police get to Kelly and Jason's home, remember she's still married to Jason, and Jason is the one who answers the door. Now Officer Cindy Buret asks if Kelly's home, and Jason says that she's not right now. He didn't know exactly where she was, but he said she'd be home in about an hour if they want to come back.


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[Assistant] But there was just like something off about the whole situation and officer Barrett sentenced it. So she was like, I'm going to stick around a little bit longer and ask you a couple questions. So she was like, oh, okay.


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[Assistant] And just as he's answering, a woman walks down the stairs and like comes up from behind him. So they're like, why did you just lie to us? There is somebody in the house. Yeah.


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[Assistant] But before they got too much closer, or too much further, excuse me, they were like, hey, uhm, why did your husband just lie to our faces? And Kelly told them that Jason probably just thought she was in some kind of trouble.


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[Assistant] But Kelly, I think they literally said she was as cool as a cucumber. So they were like, what the fuck is going on here? Like you guys want to come down to the station and chat with us? Like we're asking nicely, but I don't really think you have a lot of choice. So they were like, yeah, yeah, we'll come down to the station. And when they got there, two very different interviews were conducted.


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[Assistant] So Kelly goes first and she explains to the investigators that she and Chris were involved in an affair and that her husband, Jason, not only knew about it, but he was cool with it.


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[Assistant] Well because it doesn't seem like he's cool with it when he's like standing there super tense.


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[Assistant] Exactly. You would say that you have an open relationship. Yeah. And that's not how she was describing it. She said that she was allowed to sleep with other people.


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[Assistant] Yeah, I'm not sure. So she was like, not only does he know about it, he's fine with it. And she explains how he's injured and unable to quote unquote perform. So they decided to separate and then, and that's the thing. She said they separated, but then they had an understanding that she would sleep with other people, but they'd stay together. So I'm like, so you're not separated really. Yeah.


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[Assistant] And then she explained that while she was involved with Chris, she was also seeing another man at work named Eric.


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[Assistant] She then recalled the last time that she and Chris had seen each other and she said it was right around the time that she went missing but she couldn't be, she couldn't lock in a day.


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[Assistant] And she said that she went over to his apartment for dinner, she said she'd done this many times before, and she knew he was moving, so, and not only did she know he was moving, she claimed that Chris asked her to go to Asheville, North Carolina with him.


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[Assistant] And she said, I just didn't want to leave Iron River because it's my home now and it's quote unquote the most peaceful place I've ever been.


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[Assistant] So as a little goodbye get together, she cooked and made lasagna for the two of them. They slept together, and then she headed back home to Jason, and that was that. She hadn't heard from him since.


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[Assistant] So they were like, oh, okay, uhm, have you ever been to the Bates park and ride where Chris is, and obviously like that's where Chris's car is abandoned, but they don't say that yet to her.


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[Assistant] And she's like, not only have I never been there, I've actually, I've never heard of that. Like, what's that? And they're like, oh, that's where Chris's car was abandoned.


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[Assistant] Now, Kelly seemed confident in what she was saying. She definitely, like, seemed to be, like, calm and shooting the shit with them at this point.


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[Assistant] But what didn't help was that, like I said, they had just been to Chris Regan's apartment and there was no sign of leftover lasagna anywhere. And remember, she said she made him a lasagna. And the dirty dishes left behind, like I said, were from takeout, not lasagna.


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[Assistant] But you can't arrest somebody for lying about lasagna as far as I know. So as a mental note, they were like, you know what, let's just keep tabs on Kelly. And they said, oh, they also said, would you be willing to take a lie detector test before they wrapped up the interview?


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[Assistant] She declined. Oh, of course. She said, no thanks. Which, you know, we say all the time, that is your right, you can decline a lie detector test. But it makes you look so suspicious. It makes you look sus, but then at the same time, you can understand why somebody would because there's like false positives all the time.


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[Assistant] Because I think what it- I don't know like exactly how it works so don't quote me. But it like senses different stuff in your body that like your flight or flight and if you're nervous of course it's gonna like skew it. So sometimes people will say no to it but then you're right at the same time you look suspicious so it's such a catch 22.


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[Assistant] Alright, well, so we wrap up Kelly's interview. They're like, hey, you wanna take a lie detector test? She's like, nah, I know my rights. And they go into interview Jason. Now, like I said, these are two very different interviews, and Jason's interview goes completely differently than Kelly's did.


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[Assistant] And he explains to the investigators through his shaky voice that he was seeing a therapist for anxiety and that he was also taking something for anxiety. And he mentioned that he had spent about five days in a mental facility because he was suicidal.


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[Assistant] Now, that was something the investigators actually heard when they were asking about Chris Regan at he and Kelly's work. And some of Kelly and Chris' coworkers, after telling the investigators about their affair,


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[Assistant] Also mentioned that Kelly had been out of work recently, and it was because she was going through some marital issues at home.


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[Assistant] Yeah. So when Jason was asked about this, he said that he never had any thoughts about killing Kelly, but yes, he had been suicidal, which was sad. And the rest of his interview consisted of the investigators asking him about Kelly's extramarital affairs.


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[Assistant] And they ask him, they say, have you ever met Chris? And he says, no, I haven't, but I did walk past his apartment one day when Kelly was there. And they were like, well, why did you walk past his apartment?


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[Assistant] And he was like, I don't know, like I just did. And they were like, okay.


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[Assistant] Yeah, so he was like, I don't know, I just walked by, like I knew that she was there. And they were like, oh, well, like, were you angry? And he was like, no.


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[Assistant] But the weirdness of the entire situation had Police Chief Laura Frizzo pretty convinced that these two at least had an inkling as to what happened to Chris Regan.


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[Assistant] Guys, ever since I've been reading these ads, I've really been doing a lot to take care of my mental.


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[Assistant] Like BetterHelp says, you take care of your car and you would take a lot of really good care of your car if you had to have the same one for your entire life. And that's kinda how your brain works. So we gotta treat them really well. I've been meditating, I've been eating breakfast. Who is she though? Oh my god. Because the thing is,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] How we care for our minds affects how we experience life, so it's important to invest time and care into keeping them healthy.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Not only can you start healthy habits around like your routines, but you can also support a healthy brain by learning a new language or taking power naps or going to therapy. And there's also better help online therapy.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I think everybody should be in therapy. I feel like all of us just need somebody that we can talk to that doesn't have a horse in the race, just wants you to do you, girl, you to do you, boyfriend, everybody.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] BetterHelp is online therapy that offers video, phone, and even live chat only therapy sessions. So you don't have to see anybody on camera if you don't want to. Of course, you know that can be uncomfortable, so they're like, don't even worry about it.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So the next person that Chief Rizzo wanted in for an interview was the man that Kelly had mentioned in her interview.


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[Assistant] Uh, the person from work that she had been sleeping with that was not Chris Regan, but was Eric. Okay. This was Eric Erickson.


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[Assistant] Because Eric told the investigators that she would come along with him and they would go down to this little lake area across from the park and ride. Cause it was like a scenic view and they would hook up there. Wow.


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[Assistant] Why would she lie about the parking ride if she had nothing to hide? That's such an innocuous thing to lie about. Unless you have a fucking reason. Exactly. So after Eric's interview, Kelly and Jason were brought in for another round of questioning.


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[Assistant] And Kelly would not budge when it was revealed that investigators had spoken with Eric and knew that the two of them drove right past the park and ride every time they'd go hook up on the serene waterscape.


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[Assistant] But Jason, again, he too stuck with his same story.


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[Assistant] And Chief Rizzo felt like getting a search warrant for Kelly and Jason's home would be the move if she wanted to get any further in this investigation. So that's what, just what she did. Okay. And this is where Drew shit gets so real. God, I'm so nervous. You're going to want to quit, but you can't. Oh man.


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[Assistant] The search warrant was served on March 15th, 2015, about five months after Chris had gone missing.


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[Assistant] Uh, the officers conducting the search made sure to ask about any weapons in the home before they had Kelly and Jason leave. And Kelly told them that there was a loaded .22 she kept under their TV console.


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[Assistant] And for the first time, even Kelly seemed a little bit nervous, but at the same time she was still pretty chatty, but she kept kinda like saying things to Jason that the other people like couldn't really hear and they were like, something's weird here.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Actually, yeaah, that's kind of, they have, there are some similarities between the two of them, I would say. But, so again, Kelly had only told the officers about one gun in the house when she was asked about weapons. What she didn't tell them was that there was literally knives all over the place.


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[Assistant] And swords. Swords? Swords and knives. Jason was apparently really into collecting those and they were scattered all across this home. There was also another gun that was discovered in one of the upstairs rooms. I believe this was a shotgun.


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[Assistant] There was a hammer that was just like laying around, and a baseball bat.


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[Assistant] But the biggest discovery of all was when luminol testing was done. You know what luminol testing is?


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[Assistant] Uhm, and what seemed to be cast off was discovered in the living room.


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[Assistant] So cast off, I wish Alaina was here to explain this better, I might do my best, but cast off is basically if you like hit somebody and then you swing back.


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[Assistant] The cast off is from your swing back motion, I believe, and it's like what, it's like the spatter across the surface.


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[Assistant] Okay, yeaah. So they found cast off on the living room ceiling. And not only did the ceiling light up like the biggest strip, but so did some of the back panels on one of the living room walls.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But the only problem was the area had been freshly painted over both areas where blood was discovered. Of course. So when the blood was tested at the forensics lab, they weren't able to determine whose blood it was or even if it was human blood because the paint had contaminated the sample so much. But like, come on.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And just to add to the long list of things that seem to incriminate Kelly and Jason, are you ready? No. They left town the morning after their home was searched.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] No, I'm not totally sure. I mean, it doesn't look good. Like I'm sure they would prefer if you didn't. Yeah. But yeah, they can find you because luckily I'm not in this obviously isn't the case with every case. But in this case, they were worried about them fleeing, especially after they had found what they did in the home.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So they, a couple of PIs were actually also working on this case along with the Iron River PD because the Iron River PD is super small. Sorry, what's PI?


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[Assistant] Now that was not ideal, but the good thing was that with Kelly and Jason out of the neighborhood, the neighbor seemed more willing to come forward and talk about some of the things that they had heard.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And here we go. One neighbor said that one night around the time Chris disappeared, she actually heard what sounded like a gunshot, like in the middle of the night.


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[Assistant] And then she heard screaming and so she peeked out of her windows and she said it wasn't super clear because there were some trees obstructing her view.


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[Assistant] But she heard a car door slam and then saw a parked car sitting there like running with its headlights on.


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[Assistant] She then at this point heard a woman go, no, no, and then heard a man yell, let's get out of here. And at that point, two cars pulled away from the direction of Kelly and Jason's home and left.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And then in the nights following that strange event, the woman and her grandchildren that, who were adults thankfully, that lived across the street, heard what sounded like power tools working all throughout the night.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That's scary. And what's scarier is that these power tools wouldn't start until about two or three in the morning. And then they would go until like all the way, like the early hours of the morning, like probably end at like five I would say.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, and then another neighbor, his name was Gary, and you can see him if you watch the documentary. He said that he smelled a strange smell one day, right around the same time again, the time period that he realized Chris was missing later on.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He said he had never smelled anything like it before, but that when he approached Kelly, she did seem a bit nervous and said, it doesn't smell that bad, does it?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I mean, realistically what we're talking about here is she's burning human remains. Yeah. Like that, think of like a smell, like the smell of a fire you're gonna smell, but yeah, human remains, I mean, come on. And that's horrific to do that, number one, and then to subject your entire neighborhood to that. Yeah. So.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] They were told that the reason for all the power tool usage was because the Cochrans were just doing some remodeling.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So, and like not that that's a good thing or a bad thing, I think it's just the way it is. And like, I personally also like to keep my nose out of other people's business, but I don't know. Anyways, it's not about me.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But a hundred and fifty to two hundred dollars worth of meat just for them and the Cochrane's. Like there was like, I don't know, maybe like two or three, at most four of them, plus Kelly and Jason's like, what is that, six, seven people? Yeah. You don't need that much meat.