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[Assistant] And so Shua said, okay, and he was like, so he didn't even give him the specifics of that yet. He was like, he took his, her jewelry and he was like, all right, we don't know that yet. Cause people said they didn't think anything was missing from the scene. Right. But then he was like, I'm going to test this. So he goes, did the voice indicate to you that her killer raped her?


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[Assistant] And Jose said, oh no. No, she did not. She only said that she had been stabbed.


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[Assistant] And Jose also then right after this went into the description of the jewelry.


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[Assistant] And said that it was a pendant from the Philippines that was taken.


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[Assistant] A cocktail ring with a pearl inlay given to Teresita by her mother a couple of years earlier.


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[Assistant] And also that the, I guess that the voice insisted that this was going to be how they would know the truth.


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[Assistant] Like, I guess the voice was literally like, you tell the police this, they are going to find these things in Xiaorui's possession. I promise you this. So he was like,


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[Assistant] Whatever. And he was like, okay, it's weird because in the press they had said this was possibly a rape murder robbery. It was not in the press that she had not been sexually assaulted. So that was a strange one.


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[Assistant] And when he went back to the station, Stahula considered the whole thing. He didn't know what to make of it.


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[Assistant] And like I said, no one had reported that any jewelry was missing from Teresita's apartment.


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[Assistant] And he said they had interviewed most but not all of the co-workers that she worked with. And no one ever really talked about a man named Alan Showery.


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[Assistant] And then he's flipping through the case file and he comes across the memo pad next to the, that was next to the telephone. And it said on that memo pad, get tickets for AS.


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[Assistant] Now fortunately, it turned out that whoever received the call from the Evanston police earlier in the day,


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[Assistant] Like to take that tip and pass it on to the detectives. They had already run Showery's name for them, which I was like badass. Yeah, like ahead of things. So they had already pulled his full report, his full case file for Stuhula. So he was like, you're an MVP. You're the real one. Alan Showery was 30 years old when he started working at Edgewater's hospital.


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[Assistant] He'd studied sociology and psychology at New York University and Utah State before settling in Chicago around 1969.


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[Assistant] So, like I said, there's varying reports whether what his job at the hospital was, but he did work with Teresita alongside her. They didn't seem like they would be likely friends because on paper they are very different.


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[Assistant] He had an arrest record that was like very long. But she probably didn't know that. That included arrests for burglary in 1967, stolen mail in 1966, theft in 1971,


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[Assistant] Two arrests for rape in 1972. What the fuck was he doing working at a hospital? Yep. And both of those rapes were done on Chicago's north side where Teresita lived.


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[Assistant] Now, they were, but they were both friendly with each other. They had very outgoing personalities, the two of them. They bonded together. They both loved music. He was about to be in her band. I guess they really got along. Like, the two of them were like friends. Yea, it sounded like it. They used to ride the bus together. In the mid-1970s, he had been living with his German-born girlfriend, Janke Kaumack.


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[Assistant] He seemed perfectly fine with going down to the station and talking to the detectives.


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[Assistant] And before they'd even arrived at the station, he asked if whatever they wanted to talk about had to do with Teresita Basa. They didn't respond.


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[Assistant] They just brought him into the interrogation room and immediately read him his rights.


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[Assistant] And the detectives explained that they'd been speaking with a lot of his coworkers at the hospital.


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[Assistant] And there were some things that were said that kind of led them to want to talk to Alan. That's what they let out. They didn't say that Teresita told us you did it. I hope he did find that out eventually. Teres, so Showery claimed that he and Teresita were very good friends, but he said it was platonic. He explained they would talk during work.


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[Assistant] They would ride the bus home together, they ate lunch together, it was a very normal co-worker friendship. Wow.


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[Assistant] Now initially he said that he hadn't seen Teresita outside of work for about six months.


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[Assistant] But the detectives decided to bluff a little, and they told them that they'd found his fingerprints at the apartment. They had not.


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[Assistant] And he said there was no way that those were six months old. So he was like, okay. And then he revised his story.


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[Assistant] And he had fixed wiring in his own apartment. Lies. And he assured them that his girlfriend would verify this alibi. I bet she would. Now they were like, huh, okay. And they were like, you have a girlfriend. I wonder if she has new jewelry.


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[Assistant] So they said, I wouldn't have even thought of that. Yep. And now that they have brought him in for questioning, they could now.


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[Assistant] So they went and Yonka was there so they could question her.


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[Assistant] And when they told her about the alibi, she was very confused and said, we don't have any problems with the wiring in here, he never did any work on it. She was just like, fuck that, no he didn't.


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[Assistant] And so they were like, can we look in your jewelry box? And she was like, absolutely you can. Good for her. And they didn't really know what they were like looking for quite yet, but they, you know, they were just like, I don't know. At this point they were like, maybe it's in here, maybe it's not.


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[Assistant] And eventually they were able to find someone like one of her friends who could actually look in the jewelry box too and point to see if anything was recognizable. One of Teresita's friends. Exactly. And so they found uhm, who they found was Richard Pizzotti who was one of the two men that went on the date with her.


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[Assistant] And uh, he said he didn't see anything that he believed belonged to Teresita and they had him come down where Janka was and look into this thing.


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[Assistant] And he was like, yeah, I don't see anything that's hers. And then he was leaving the room and he looked over at Yanka and he said, that ring on her finger is Teresita's.


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[Assistant] And the cousin also looked in, was able to look in the box and identified a jade pendant.


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[Assistant] That was Teresita's, and remember, her, Remy had said there's a jade pendant, there's a pendant, she said. She said a pendant, a ring, and. A cocktail ring that belongs to, and a cocktail ring that belongs to my mother. Yeah. That was my mother. Right, right, right.


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[Assistant] And he said, the cousin said there was also two other items in there that he believed belonged to Teresita as well.


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[Assistant] Now after he heard about the jewelry and about his girlfriend denying the alibi, Showery tried to spin a story about how he bought that jewelry from some guy on the street.


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[Assistant] But, both detectives just kinda looked at him and were like, really? Is that really the fucking story you wanna go with? He immediately dropped it, and he said, I murdered her. Just confessed. Why?


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[Assistant] Like boom. According to Alan, he said he did go to Teresitas that evening to look at the television set to fix it for her.


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[Assistant] That's when he was going back to her apartment and he said he just decided he was gonna rob her.


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[Assistant] So he said the reason was, he said he had been helping Teresita obtain citizenship papers and it had on several occasions.


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[Assistant] And yeah, he broke, so he said at the time of the murder, he was very broke, he was behind on all his bills, he was very desperate. Well, get another job, asshole. And as soon as Teresita closed the door after letting him in, he grabbed her from behind and gave her a chokehold. She lost consciousness very quickly.


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[Assistant] And he said he laid her down on the floor and just started ransacking the place for money.


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[Assistant] All he found was $30 in cash in what he thought was expensive looking jewelry.


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[Assistant] So once he'd ransacked the place he went back to the living room, he picked her up off the floor, carried her into the bedroom.


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[Assistant] Went to the kitchen and got that knife off the counter that she had used to cut up the lettuce and the tomato. And he stabbed her into her sternum.


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[Assistant] Holy shit. According to Alan, he described Teresita as being subconscious at the time, which I was like, nope.


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[Assistant] Incorrect. You work at a fucking hospital. And he said she didn't feel anything. Who the fuck are you to say that?


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[Assistant] After, so you said he piled some clothes on top of her body, dragged the mattress over to her, and set fire to a paper bag that he put on top of the clothing.


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[Assistant] During this questioning, Stahula put in a bunch of control questions to see


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[Assistant] If he was telling the truth or if he was just repeating things he had heard in the media.


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[Assistant] Alan accurately described the scene in the apartment, which wasn't released to the press.


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[Assistant] He described what Teresita was wearing, he said what he'd stolen


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[Assistant] And you know, just to be sure they had him go through it a second time and they said he never wavered from that confession.


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[Assistant] And so they took him out of the room and they said as he went by Janka who was standing out there, he told her that he probably wouldn't be seeing her again for a long time.


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[Assistant] Now, everything had worked out, it seemed. And the detectives were really confident that they had enough to give the district attorney for prosecution. I mean, they had everything. The stuff. The only issue is...


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[Assistant] That they weren't sure how to explain how they'd even made their way to Alan Showery. Right.


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[Assistant] But there was no way around it. They had to tell the judge and the jury that the ghost of Teresita Basa spoke through Remi Chua and led them to their killer. I mean, and the thing is,


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[Assistant] They may not have been able to explain what happened, but they were right about every detail. Right. So it's like, this is gonna sound kinda kooky.


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[Assistant] But everything is right. This is what happened and it led us here. So the case was assigned to Thomas Organ of the Cook County District Attorney's Office who would be representing the state.


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[Assistant] And at first, Organ was, uh, skeptical of the voice from the grave story. I think so. And he had no idea how he was gonna present this case to a jury. He said, in my five years as a prosecutor handling 70 or so felony cases, I've never run into anything like this. Also, sorry, is his last name Organ? Yeah. Wow. Yeah, right.


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[Assistant] But he, he dove into it and he researched it, investigated it, and he said,


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[Assistant] They're telling the truth. Everything in this case just like lines up. It does. Like spiritually, physically. Yeah.


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[Assistant] And this is when Allen's defense attorney, William Suano.


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[Assistant] He tried to have the charges dismissed because of the unusual circumstances that preceded his arrest. It's like, yeah, sure, but like, why does your client have everything and know everything about her? Well, and he's claiming that Remy Chua had faked the episodes because she'd been fired, she was stressed out, she was trying to get attention.


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[Assistant] And prosecutor Thomas Oregon argued that the detectives had pursued a viable lead and found probable cause to arrest Alan Showery. So the paranormal thing that preceded it?


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[Assistant] Was unusual, but ultimately, irrelevant because it led to the truth. Uh huh. And the judge agreed. Wow. And Alan's, yea, and Alan Showery was ordered to stand trial for the first degree murder of Teresita Basa. Cause he planned it on the way over. Yea, cause he had planned the whole thing.


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[Assistant] Alan Showery went on trial January 8th, 1979, and the media went nuts about this. Thomas Organ knew he was fighting a very uphill battle with the, you know, a lot of his case was resting on a tip from a ghost, so.


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[Assistant] Uh, that's tough. But he, he fought through. He was undeterred. In the months since the case had come to him, he had interviewed the Chua's again and again.


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[Assistant] And he said it was mo- you know, I was trying to get the- I knew they were gonna be on the stand. And he said also I was looking for holes in the story. Right. And he found nothing.


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[Assistant] And he said in front of the jury, Oregon tried to minimize the supernatural claims and just kind of focus on the facts of the case, which was a case of murder and robbery and not ghosts in possession. So he was like, the reality of the case is that there is evidence in his possession to say he murdered her. Yeah.


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[Assistant] And he was like, I don't want the jury to forget that. That there's facts here. Regardless of how we got here, we got here.


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[Assistant] So for the most part, his argument remained much as it had during the pretrial hearing with


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[Assistant] Alan Showery had been confronted with undeniable proof of his involvement, and with the jewelry.


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[Assistant] And on that, he had given an oral and written confession to murdering her. So that is the facts.


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[Assistant] And the defense argued that Showery had been arrested on nothing more than the Chua's unbelievable story of possession and that Alan had only confessed to spare his girlfriend from being arrested along with him and giving birth to their children in jail, because apparently she was pregnant.


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[Assistant] Now Remi Chua was in the process, they said was in the process of being fired from her job, she had personal problems, they didn't release what those personal problems were. Cause they probably didn't exist. But they told the story, the jury that he, she had just made up this possession thing, this whole act to get attention. And, sure.


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[Assistant] Anybody hearing that would be like, under normal circumstances, sure. Tell me that she's stressed out, she lost her job.


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[Assistant] There was all this weird shit going on. Maybe she wants attention. Sure. Why not? Except that from the start that she was, didn't want to report the whole thing even. They were reluctant reporters and reluctant witnesses. They didn't want to talk about


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[Assistant] Any of it. They were stressed out talking about it. They were very reluctant.


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[Assistant] And at no time had the Chuhas tried to make money off of or capitalize on this story. No time. Right. Never. So like, they had nothing to gain here. In fact, everyone who knew them, and anytime anyone talked to them, they were like, we really just want to go away. Like, we don't want to be part of this story anymore. We don't want to be in the spotlight.


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[Assistant] We just wanna leave this for you to fix, and that's it.


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[Assistant] Like people will doubt him if he like made this up and you know. Yea, and she's a respiratory therapist, like they have like.


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[Assistant] The defense kinda focused on the paranormal part, being like, this is crazy, trying to put in the jury's mind, this is wild.


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[Assistant] Also propping up Showery's claim that he had been coerced into confessing.


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[Assistant] By, because the detectives have threatened to arrest his girlfriend as an accessory. Okay.


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[Assistant] Now, Thomas Orgen dismissed any claims of coercion, saying to the jury that his story might be believable if it came from a 16 year old boy who might be easily intimidated. But they said, Alan Showery is an adult, educated man with an extensive criminal history.


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[Assistant] And as for the supernatural part about the Chua's, he told them it doesn't matter as to guilt or innocence, what does matter is that the information furnished to police checked out. And after 13 hours of deliberation,


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[Assistant] The jury sent a note to the judge on the afternoon of Friday, January 26 saying that they were


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[Assistant] Hopelessly deadlocked. I would think. Because can you imagine that 13 hours in there of them going back and forth?


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[Assistant] And the judge dismissed the jury and a new trial was set for February 14th. Ugh, they needed Ronald.


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[Assistant] So February 14th came and went, and the judge had to order a continuance.


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[Assistant] Which got the defense really feeling good because they started getting confident that they could get an acquittal the second time around.


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[Assistant] The next day, Showery and lawyers from both sides stood in front of the judge and Alan Showery against the advice of his attorney.


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[Assistant] Pleaded guilty to the murder of Teresita Basa. Do you think Teresita was like appearing to him at this point? I wonder if she was like, you fucker, I'm gonna haunt your ass. Right? And he was like, I'm just gonna admit this. Yeah.


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[Assistant] The district attorney's office confirmed that they had no plea deal. They had not offered a deal for this. Wow.


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[Assistant] I feel like he had to have been being haunted. And honestly, I hope that even after he pled guilty, he continued to be haunted. That's what I think. And Showery would not give an explanation for why he decided to do this. That's what makes me think. Cause we already know. Yup. And his lawyer asked the judge for leniency. That's all they could do. And the judge considered everything.


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[Assistant] And the request for leniency and sentence Alan Showery to concurrent terms of four to 12 years on armed robbery and arson charges.


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[Assistant] What about the murder? He was never convicted of the murder, from what I can tell.


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[Assistant] He was convicted of armed rob- of robbery and arson.


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[Assistant] That's why he got that sentence. What? So I wonder if there was some kind of plea deal. There has to have been. Cause it's very confusing.


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[Assistant] That doesn't make any sense, and also that pisses me the fuck off.


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[Assistant] Cause he served the minimum four years of his sentence and was paroled in 1983. What the actual fuck, are you kidding?


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[Assistant] There's something that happened in that trial that we, that is not public, that we don't know about, that definitely is hidden somewhere in the annals of that record.


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[Assistant] Yeah, cause you know what? She said, I can't move on until they know that he did it. So hopefully she just got him to admit it. And then was like, now I can move on. See you later. I hope she is like playing piano shows.


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[Assistant] I hope she's going to London sometimes to hang out and have some fun. I hope she quickly dropped


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[Assistant] That's how much of a friend she considered him. She was gonna have him be in the band.


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[Assistant] She tipped him every time he drove her somewhere and she didn't actually really have that much money. And telling like her friends in the band that like, oh, I have this friend, you know, Alan is going to be in the band. Like, I want you guys to hear him.


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[Assistant] Uhm, I think maybe, but I'm doubting it now. I think it is.


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[Assistant] Woke up early and I got on my treadmill action this morning, but then that moved things around. It moves it all around, it makes it.


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[Assistant] But now I had Alka-Seltzer, so I feel, Alka-Seltzer for me works like right away. That's good. Did you, have you, you've had heartburn, right? Uhm, I had it when I was pregnant a little bit. Can you have Alka-Seltzer when you're pregnant? Uhm, pretty sure you can, I just did Tums. Oh, see Tums is, it like redoes it. Oh yea, it's, it's a, it's a thing, yea.


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[Assistant] Eating bread does help. Any excuse to eat bread, really. Yea, may I please have bread? But yea, here we are. Here we are.


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[Assistant] Uhm, yeaah, I have a really sad case today, obviously, cause you know, you're listening to morbid.


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[Assistant] Uhm, and she was previously Michelle Laundy, and she met her husband Lloyd Nyrighter in 18, nope, in 1989. Oh, I was like, this is an old one. Only you do those.


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[Assistant] Uh, they met in 1989. Okay. Which, you know.


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[Assistant] She was 18 and she was in her senior year and Lloyd was two years younger and they became friends over time. And then when Michelle graduated and she had her grad party.


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[Assistant] That's when her parents remembered meeting Lloyd for the first time, and that's kinda when he started coming around more often.


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[Assistant] Cause after the party they started hanging out more and more and eventually they began dating. Their relationship kinda developed pretty quickly.


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[Assistant] But even though he was younger, Michelle felt like he was easy to talk to.


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[Assistant] He was smart and their conversations were never boring. And that was something she really liked about him. Yeah. Which like, we love a good conversationalist.


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[Assistant] And then quickly got pregnant with their second child, another daughter. Ultimately, they would end up having three daughters.


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[Assistant] But their second daughter they named Carrie after Michelle's sister.


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[Assistant] Oh, that's really sweet. That's adorable. Why didn't Elena name one of the children Ashley? Sorry.


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[Assistant] So the family moved to a pretty big farmhouse in Corning in upstate New York. Lloyd got a job, uh, working as an engineer with Corning Incorporated. Wow. Good job. Good job.


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[Assistant] Now, the move kinda seemed like a step in the right direction for the family.


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[Assistant] But also at the same time, the stress of moving and kind of like starting a new job and everything started to bring out some of Lloyd's, you could say, less attractive character traits. Uh oh. Michelle's mother, Jeannie.


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[Assistant] She wasn't into it and she also was just like, I don't really understand like what my daughter sees in this guy, which that's never good. No. But because she and her husband really respected their daughter, they kept their thoughts to themselves.


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[Assistant] And the thing was, they weren't the only people who felt like this, so it wasn't like...


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[Assistant] Well, their standards are just too high. It was no other people felt this way too.


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[Assistant] Uh, Michelle's sister Carrie, the one that her daughter was named after, she started noticing things about Lloyd that made her a little bit nervous. Like, he had very, very high, very unreasonable expectations of his family.


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[Assistant] Yeah, and you're just like, I don't know about this. Like that makes me nervous.


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[Assistant] But he said, uhm, he was talking about like being in a position of power and he was like, had a whole discussion with us of-


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[Assistant] Those are two very different things in my opinion at least.


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[Assistant] To people a little more removed, like in the outside world, Lloyd actually seemed like he was a doting father to them, the people who were removed. They saw the dad that, you know, brought his kids to ballet class, made sure they were all put together, you know? But the cracks would be apparent to anybody who was paying close enough attention to see them.


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[Assistant] Oh come on, these are little babes. Dude, you're not, this isn't the army. That's the thing, I'm like, do you think you're in like full metal jacket? Like get out of here. It's too much.


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[Assistant] So by the early to mid 2000s, the Nye writer's facade of a happy family was definitely starting to slip. Lloyd was still working at Corning, but his job was about to make some cuts because this was right around the time, like, of the market crash. Yeah. So the economy was suffering.


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[Assistant] And actually eventually she took a job teaching English at one of the local colleges.


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[Assistant] And then a few years after that, she had this blog called The Professional Family Manager.


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[Assistant] So she was doing really, really well. And her success only seemed to add to the difficulty between her and Lloyd. Oh, is he one of those that can't handle it? That's the thing. It's like, I feel like if your partner isn't celebrating your success with you, something's wrong. That's a big problem. In my opinion. Yeah. Cause I can't imagine coming home to Drew and like,


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[Assistant] Yeaah. So. I do not like Lloyd. None of us do. Now if Michelle's parents were concerned, which it very much sounds like they were,


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[Assistant] They must have been really, really worried when Michelle slowly started cutting them out. She was kind of backing away from them.


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[Assistant] And by 2007, her relationship with them was nonexistent.


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[Assistant] So the mom figured that, you know, Lloyd probably had something to do with the daughter cutting ties with the family, but of course she couldn't really know for sure.


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[Assistant] In 2020 she told CBS News, I think that he threatened her either to harm the children or to harm her. And Michelle's friend Cynthia Raj would later confirm that Jeannie's suspicions of Lloyd were actually spot on.


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[Assistant] She reiterated a conversation that she had with Michelle where Michelle told her, it was Lloyd that made me cut off contact with them. And then Cynthia elaborated he didn't want her to have a place to go if she wanted to leave.


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[Assistant] This guy is like control, control, control. So in 2008, he did end up losing his job at Corning. And a few months later, he ended up getting a different job offer from a company over in New Jersey.


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[Assistant] So if he took that job, it would mean that they would have a lot more time apart, which would be good.


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[Assistant] Which would be good, which is sad because usually when you have a family, the dynamic is like, no, we don't want mom or dad to take this job far away and be away from us. But this is like, no go.


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[Assistant] Kinda seemed that way. Now, so the separation to Michelle, she was like, I think this is a good idea. And I think she was kind of just desperate for...


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[Assistant] So he took the job and the separation kind of proved itself to be something Lloyd wanted to make permanent.


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[Assistant] I think they figured, you know, maybe Michelle will get to that point eventually. That's the thing, I would have saw that. But nobody saw it coming from Lloyd. No. Especially not Michelle. She obviously knew that their marriage wasn't the happiest marriage in the world. Yeaah. But she was shocked. And her attorney, uh, Susan Betts, Betts Gedebier said, I know, I put a little phonetic in there for myself.


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[Assistant] She said, Michelle was surprised that he had filed for divorce. She had done everything she thought she could to do to make him happy and the family happy. Which is sad. That is so sad.


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[Assistant] But apparently in the years that he and Michelle spent away from one another, Lloyd decided he really didn't have a lot of use for her anymore. But what he did want was sole custody of their three daughters. And Michelle's attorney explained,


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[Assistant] Just how determined he was to get what he wanted. This is insane.


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[Assistant] The attorney said, Lloyd was relentless in using the legal system to harass Michelle. It just never ended. There were 26 separate sets of filings post divorce. Are you kidding me? 26. What? Isn't that insane? Wow. So obviously,


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[Assistant] During and after the divorce, things became very bitter between them.


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[Assistant] But things were more contentious than usual with these like court dates going back and forth.


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[Assistant] And in his court filings, Lloyd accused Michelle of anything and everything he thought would get him full custody.


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[Assistant] Especially because he didn't want to pay child support. Because he was in a lot of debt.


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[Assistant] Now Michelle on the other hand, she accused him of trying to turn their kids against her.


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[Assistant] So not long after the divorce, she ended up selling their farmhouse, the family house that they lived in together, and she moved into a smaller house, it's still in the same town of Corning.


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[Assistant] And their oldest daughter actually ended up moving to New Jersey to live with Lloyd.


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[Assistant] Obviously took a heavy toll on all of the kids. All of these girls are like old enough to know what's going on. Of course.


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[Assistant] No matter what, like even if they're not, like our bodies pick up on that, you know?


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[Assistant] Everything seemed to show and carry the most of all the middle child. She was in her junior year of high school when her parents divorced, so she was at the age where kids usually distance themselves from their parents anyway.


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[Assistant] But now she seemed to be avoiding her mom even more than usual.


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[Assistant] She said of their relationship it got more strained as she approached her senior year. Eek.


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[Assistant] Yeah, so by mid 2017, after just years and years and years of bitter custody fights, harassment, abuse, the whole nine, Michelle was shocked when she had a court date with Lloyd and he was supposed to show up.


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[Assistant] And this court date was going to be addressing custody of their youngest daughter. And he just didn't show up.


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[Assistant] They divorced in 2013, now it's 2017. That's four years. Four years of this stuff, and then all of a sudden he just doesn't show up. Like, what? So weird. So she texted her lawyer saying, I'm in shock. Lloyd did not show up for the appearance.


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[Assistant] For his petition for sole custody, he did not withdraw, he did not ask for an adjournment, he did not answer the court's phone calls, emails, nothing.


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[Assistant] It seemed like after all those years, he had just given up and walked away.


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[Assistant] But Michelle's attorney was like freaked out by this. She was like, something's not right. You don't fight that long and then just give up. No. No. And the attorney said, it was very unusual. It was unthinkable really. Yeah, that would concern me a lot. Me too.


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[Assistant] Now, since he didn't show up, the case obviously was dismissed, which left the youngest daughter in Michelle's custody. So Michelle was relieved that this, you know, seemed to mean that they were putting their worst years behind them.


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[Assistant] What I think is that she probably was relieved and kind of trying to put the worry in the back of her mind and just celebrate a small win. Yeaah. You know?


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[Assistant] So by the summer of 2017, Carrie was a sophomore at the Rochester Institute of Technology and she was living off campus. So that meant the youngest daughter was the only one still home with Michelle. Now,


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[Assistant] On the afternoon of August 28, 2017, a family friend came by the house to pick up that youngest daughter for swim practice. Okay. And almost immediately this friend got the feeling that something was very wrong.


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[Assistant] He knocked on the door to let Michelle and her daughter know that he was there, but nobody was coming to answer.


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[Assistant] He saw what looked like an adult standing in the stairway.


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[Assistant] And the thing was, Michelle and her daughter, like either one of them, usually came to the door pretty quickly.


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[Assistant] So the fact that somebody was just standing there on the stairs completely motionless and like not moving and coming to the door or anything. Yeah. Was alarming.


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[Assistant] So he was freaked out and he was like, I feel like I should call 911, like I don't know what's going on here.


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[Assistant] So the Cornish police sergeant John McDivitt, he was the first to arrive at the scene, and he also looked through the little pane of glass in the front door.


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[Assistant] And he could see what the family friend had described to 911.


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[Assistant] He said, I could see a female laying at the bottom of the stairs. And he also said he felt like something wasn't quite right there. Well yeaah.


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[Assistant] So he entered the house and he was immediately greeted by the family dog who came running when the door was open.


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[Assistant] As I got closer I could see there was a rope around her neck. There was no pulse. She was cold and stiff to the touch. It was Michelle.


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[Assistant] Now, as far as he could tell in that moment, it looked like Michelle Nyrighter had hanged herself from a rope tied to the banister at the top of the stairs. Oh my god. But, more importantly in that moment at least, was the fact that her daughter was supposed to be home, the 14 year old daughter, but now she was nowhere to be found.


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[Assistant] So they quickly searched the house, there's no child in sight, there's also no suicide note, which they thought was bizarre.


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[Assistant] So while crime scene technicians process the scene at the house,


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[Assistant] The police began a search, uh, in the area for the youngest nighrider girl.


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[Assistant] Now, after a few hours had gone by, investigators got a call from Carrie, the middle daughter.


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[Assistant] And she said she just heard the news about her mom and she wanted to let authorities know that actually she had her younger sister. And the younger sister was with her in Rochester.


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[Assistant] Okay. Almost 100 miles away from Corning. Okay.


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[Assistant] So that's pretty much what investigators asked and through tears, Carrie explained why she had her sister.


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[Assistant] According to her, she had gone home to Corning on the afternoon of the 28th. She wanted to spend one last night with her mom before her semester started.


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[Assistant] She told detectives, when I got there, my mom started freaking out. And she said her mom was


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[Assistant] Carrie said she took her out of the house and they went back to Rochester for the night. Okay.


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[Assistant] Exactly. So, investigators are hearing this and they're like, okay, okay. And at first glance, Michelle's death kind of appeared to investigators like it really could just be suicide.


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[Assistant] But friends and family were like, there's no way. Like they vehemently disagreed with that. For one thing, putting the problems with the light to the side for a second.


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[Assistant] Her friend Cynthia said she had a great job and it was not the place in her life where she would have committed suicide after all the really difficult years she'd been through.


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[Assistant] And then her divorce lawyer agreed and said, I never believed it. She was determined to have a successful life and she did.


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[Assistant] That's, that's why it was so shocking to me when you said that. I was like, what?


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[Assistant] That's like he wasn't gonna let it lie. Right. But the timing just seemed weird to everybody.


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[Assistant] So, and that's the thing, other people who knew Michelle went a step further and they said, not only did they think that Michelle would not have ended her own life, but that if it was murder, they needed to look at Lloyd.


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[Assistant] It's probably them. Right? It's probably them.


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[Assistant] And imagine having that level of concern for like a family friend or like a relative. Like that's awful. And then to see it like this and be like, it ended how I was worried it was going to end. Right. I can't imagine.


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[Assistant] Here's the thing, obviously these were Michelle's friends and family speaking, and obviously it's common for those people to be shocked when


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[Assistant] But in this case, it wasn't just the shock of unexpectedly losing Michelle.


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[Assistant] There was, as we all know at this point, a very long history of domestic abuse and violence in the family that friends and family were well aware of and very worried about.


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[Assistant] In fact, when, uh, Jeannie made it to Corning, that's Michelle's mother, after her daughter's death and she started going through Michelle's personal things, she started to get an even clearer picture of how dysfunctional Michelle and Lloyd's marriage had been.


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[Assistant] When that was brought to the attention of the investigators looking into Michelle's death.


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[Assistant] Coupled with some bizarre findings in the autopsy, they were starting to think that maybe her friends and family could be onto something here.


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[Assistant] But what struck the coroner as very strange was when he discovered a U-shaped mark around her chin that suicide by hanging just couldn't account for.


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[Assistant] Because the mark on her chin actually unsettled the police chief, Jeff Spalding, so much.


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[Assistant] And he said he hoped that the autopsy would confirm their suspicions. But unfortunately...


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[Assistant] When the results came back, the cause of death was listed as undecided, undetermined causation. So now they had to go back to the drawing board.


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[Assistant] And once there, there was Kerry's story to consider next to the evidence.


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[Assistant] She said that her and her mom had gotten into this big fight the night that she died, and she claimed it was because Michelle thought that Carrie was supporting her father over her.


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[Assistant] Now investigators realized, you know, of course it's possible that Michelle was upset about this, but again,


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[Assistant] And under those circumstances, it didn't really seem like she'd be enraged at Carrie at that point, like to get in such a big fight over this.


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[Assistant] It doesn't add up. No, and they also were like, I don't really think she would be super hopeless about the situation either.


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[Assistant] And even though the evidence was very, very circumstantial at that point.


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[Assistant] It did strongly suggest that her ex-husband Lloyd was worth looking into.


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[Assistant] But there was a problem with the theory that he had something to do with it. He had a pretty strong alibi.


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[Assistant] He was nearly 3000 miles away at a job interview in California. Oh. However.


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[Assistant] With that being said, he had been in New York around the time that Michelle had been killed. Oh, I was gonna ask. He just got to California after that. So he just got there quick? Uh huh. Okay. Real quick.


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[Assistant] According to Carrie, her father had helped her move into her new apartment on August 26th, and then he stayed in a hotel room that night.


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[Assistant] And left for California on the 27th and had been there ever since. Okay.


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[Assistant] But actually, when investigators called to tell him about Michelle, he was still in California.


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[Assistant] And once he was informed that she had died, he flew right back to New York. And the first thing he did was go to the, uh, I think it's Steuben County Family Court to quote, turn off his child support and maintenance payments.


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[Assistant] Yeah, you gotta do that real quick. That was the first thing he did. It's like, do you want to check in with any of your children? So like their mother was just, I mean, just died. Yeah. Like what? No.


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[Assistant] Now as he was leaving that courthouse that day, he ran into Corning Police Detective James Volpe, and James was like, hey, like, you wanna chat?


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[Assistant] And weirdly, Lloyd seemed pretty eager to talk about Michelle's death.


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[Assistant] Really? Mhm. They sat down in Detective Volpe's car for what turned out to be a actually pretty lengthy interview.


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[Assistant] And Lloyd, he gave the same alibi that his daughter had given them a couple days earlier.


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[Assistant] You know, went on to say that he checked into the motel after helping Carrie move. He said they had dinner together. And after Carrie left, he went to bed.


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[Assistant] And then he said the next morning he met Carrie and his younger daughter around 7am for breakfast, then he left the hotel and was off to California. Okay, so Volpe was like, okay.


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[Assistant] Then they went back to the station and decided to check into that even further.


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[Assistant] I'm glad. And data from his cell phone actually seemed to corroborate the story that he had told investigators and Kerry had told investigators.


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[Assistant] But so they looked at the footage and they saw Carrie and Lloyd get to the hotel the evening after she moved into her apartment. But when he walks her to her car later that night,


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[Assistant] When he said he went to bed and then they met up for breakfast the next morning. Guy, nope. Come on. And then he didn't appear on camera again until the next morning and that was when he was supposed to be getting breakfast with his kids.


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[Assistant] So now the police had evidence that he lied to them about his alibi, and they were like, well shit, maybe he really did have something to do with this after all.


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[Assistant] So combined with the physical evidence documented during the autopsy,


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[Assistant] Everything investigators were learning about Lloyd indicated that yeaah, he probably had something to do with this.


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[Assistant] They had to identify his motive, uh, which was pretty easy. Yeah. The district attorney's office did some digging and they found out that he was quote, not in a good financial place.


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[Assistant] Lloyd had over a hundred thousand dollars in credit card debt. Oh damn. And he was paying his wife almost six thousand dollars a month. Wow. Like child support. Yeah.


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[Assistant] That wasn't it. Baker was also, who worked for the DAA's office, was also able to find out that Lloyd had already tried to collect Michelle's $260,000 life insurance policy.


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[Assistant] Which clearly would have taken care of his debt.


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[Assistant] Like, dude, this is, this is, like, Jesus. Right out there. Like, you have this much debt, you already tried to, first of all, you immediately shut off all the payments. And why did you think that you were gonna get her fucking life insurance? You've been divorced for four years. Yeaah. Like, what?


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[Assistant] Based on what they'd learned so far, the district attorney's office, they believed that Lloyd killed Michelle and Carrie.


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[Assistant] I'd either helped him or was helping him cover it up. Shut up. Yeah.


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[Assistant] They couldn't prove it quite yet, but they were like, the way that she was covering for him, they were like she either knows something about this or she participated.


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[Assistant] So, now they had a suspect with the means, the motive, and the opportunity to commit Michelle's murder.


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[Assistant] Now investigators were, they were able to get a warrant and they put wiretaps on Lloyd and Carrie's phones to monitor those conversations. But it was November 2017 when they started monitoring those conversations and by that point almost two months had gone by since Michelle had been killed.


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[Assistant] So, Carrie and Lloyd weren't really talking about Michelle that much anymore. Yeah, they got, you know. I'm like, damn, that was your whole last mom, but okay. Yeah, but like, wow, apparently they got what they needed out of the situation.


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[Assistant] So, Jeff Spalding, police chief said, in order to kind of refresh things, we did what was called tickle the wire. That's precious. Which I fucking love. Tickle the wire? Tickle the wire. I didn't know that was a term. Nor did I. Apparently it's a tactic that police will use to make criminals think that they're


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[Assistant] So what they did was, uh, in late November, they had Detective Volpe there call Carrie and imply, cause you, you know, you can imply. That's pretty fucking smart. Right? They were like, we found some new information and we're going to need to talk to you. Like you're going to have to come down. So Carrie took the bait.


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[Assistant] And as soon as she got off with the detective, she called her dad and let him know that they were calling her back in.


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[Assistant] And Lloyd was like, it's probably just a formality, like there's nothing to worry about.


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[Assistant] And then he went on to tell Carrie that she needed to put the police off as long as possible.


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[Assistant] He said, tell them I'm sorry, I got a counseling appointment back in New Jersey tonight.


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[Assistant] And that's the thing, she's like a fucking teenager. This is a father manipulating their child. Wait until you hear what really happened.


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[Assistant] We'll get there. So the conversation between Carrie and Lloyd very much confirmed investigator suspicions, but at the same time,


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[Assistant] It wasn't, it wasn't completely incriminating.


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[Assistant] Right. It was right out there. Just anybody looking at it would be like, yeah. Exactly.


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[Assistant] Chill vibes only. But yea, legally we cannot. Yea, no. Uhm, and the other thing is legally you cannot get a search warrant off of vibes. Yea, you can't. So, one of the biggest problems that the district attorney's office was facing was the undetermined cause of death on Michelle's autopsy.


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[Assistant] So they gathered up all the forensic evidence and all the autopsy reports and they took everything to a private forensic pathologist for a second opinion.


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[Assistant] Unfortunately, Michelle had been cremated. Oh no. So there was no body to examine.


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[Assistant] But this private pathologist also noted the mark on Michelle's chin.


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[Assistant] And he noted that particular hemorrhaging was there and was very suspicious.


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[Assistant] And after looking over some more papers, he looked up at the detectives and the district attorney and said, this is a homicide. Hell yeaah, he knew. He knew. Good job.


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[Assistant] So on January 24th, 2018, five months after Michelle had been murdered,


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[Assistant] Investigators visited Lloyd at his office in New Jersey and another set of officers went to see Carrie at her apartment in Rochester. The one that her dad had quote unquote helped her move into.


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[Assistant] So confronted with all the evidence that they had at this point, Lloyd still maintained that he was at his hotel in Rochester all night and he said, I'll take a polygraph test. I'll take one right now, like let's go. Cool.


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[Assistant] So they weren't very surprised by his confidence because they knew


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[Assistant] And they were right. Once Carrie was brought into the police station for questioning,


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[Assistant] Exactly, cause she was scared of him, and wanted to make her dad happy to avoid whatever happened if he wasn't happy.


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[Assistant] And she let her father in the house. And Michelle was standing at the top of the stairs when they walked in into Michelle's house.


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[Assistant] And as soon as Michelle saw Lloyd, she started yelling and was like, why the fuck are you here?


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[Assistant] And they eventually made it to Michelle's bedroom to argue privately.


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[Assistant] And that's where the shouting continued. Carrie said, suddenly everything went silent.


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[Assistant] And at first she told detective she didn't know why her mom had suddenly gone silent, but eventually she admitted it was because her mom was dead.


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[Assistant] The younger one, the 14 year old was there. Yup. Exactly. And she had no idea what was going on.


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[Assistant] So Carrie knew that was why her dad was in the house in the first place because he had actually come to her a week before this and told her that he couldn't afford the monthly support that he had to pay Michelle.


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[Assistant] And so knowing that Carrie's relationship with her mom was really strained at that point, he knew what he was doing. He knew Carrie would choose him over the mom, over Michelle, so he casually suggested an alternative plan. He said, well we could also kill your mother.


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[Assistant] Jesus. And he said all his financial issues would be solved. So she literally sat there carrying the detective's interview room and said I had to choose.


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[Assistant] Imagine what they dealt with as little kids. No, because if your father comes to you and is like, hey, either I'm gonna kill myself, lol, I'm not really actually gonna do that, I never had any intention of doing that. But why don't we just kill your mom?


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[Assistant] What? It's just gross. It's, I can't, it's like your brain can't even come up with that on it's own.


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[Assistant] So Carrie went on to explain the rest of the night, telling investigators that


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[Assistant] Lloyd and Michelle's arguing eventually woke up her younger sister, who was at the house, the 14 year old. So Carrie took her outside and put her into her car, and she just told her to wait. These poor kids.


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[Assistant] She said that she then went back inside and when she got there, her mom was dead. So she and her sister went back to Rochester and she said they left Lloyd in Corning to stage the scene to look like a suicide.


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[Assistant] And the law is pretty black and white, unfortunately, or maybe fortunately.


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[Assistant] It's, it's awful. So with Carrie's confession on the record.


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[Assistant] Investigators had everything they needed to arrest Lloyd now, but they ran into a pretty big issue.


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[Assistant] What? He never showed up for that polygraph test at the police station that he said he was gonna come to?


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[Assistant] Lloyd, meanwhile, he was still in New Jersey and now had to be extradited. So that was a whole thing.


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[Assistant] And she entered a plea of not guilty to second degree murder.


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[Assistant] And she waived her right to a prelim- preliminary hearing. That's always so hard to say.


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[Assistant] Where he waved extradition proceedings and then he was eventually transferred also to Steuben County.


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[Assistant] Wow. And Carrie was indicted on four felony counts. Second degree murder, first degree custodial interference, tampering with physical evidence, and second degree conspiracy.


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[Assistant] And district attorney Brooks Baker told the press, this appears to be the ultimate domestic violence case. What is clear from the evidence is this was not a crime of passion. This was planned, calculated, and a purposeful killing. And he destroyed Carrie's life. A hundred percent.


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[Assistant] No matter if she goes to jail for 25 years or she goes, she doesn't go to jail.


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[Assistant] Well, even just those small comments that you heard from family friends, like he would yell front and center. Yea, that's the thing. And people described him as making their appearance immaculate. Kids are not meant to be immaculate, they're fucking kids.


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[Assistant] But yea, but that's why that's one of my biggest things when I have kids is like, our kids will be kids. Yea, exactly. You can't put that on them.


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[Assistant] Now, so from the moment they were arrested, investigators knew that Carrie would be the easiest one to flip. She was young, she really didn't have a direct involvement in the murder as far as they knew.


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[Assistant] And she very much seemed to have a shit ton of guilt about what she'd been involved in. So after a few weeks while she was in jail, the district attorney met with her to talk about a plea deal.


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[Assistant] Yes, she didn't play a direct role in the murder, like her father very much murdered, but he, she helped cover it up.


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[Assistant] She told investigators he opened the door and my mom was laying on the floor and he said he needed help lifting her.


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[Assistant] Girl was put into is horrific. She was put into this situation.


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[Assistant] That's horrible. And then she also admitted that her father had ridden in the trunk of her car all the way back to Rochester and her little sister never even knew he was in the car.


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[Assistant] She snuck him in the trunk and he stayed in the trunk the entire time that they drove back. He's a fucking demon. Knowing that he had just murdered their mom, knowing that Carrie had to pretend like she hadn't just played some kind of role in that. He's a piece of absolute shit, this guy. And the little sister has no fucking idea what's going on. And it sounds like Carrie


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[Assistant] So she did take the deal in exchange for testifying against Lloyd. She pleaded guilty to one count of second degree manslaughter. Okay. And she went on the record as having helped her father.


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[Assistant] So during the hearing she explained to the court how her father had confronted her with the ultimatum.


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[Assistant] Either she helped him kill Michelle or he was going to kill himself. And she said she didn't know what to do, so she agreed to help.


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[Assistant] And, and so this is actually like a thing that was done to her. It has like an actual term. Because in later interviews, Brooks Baker would explain that Carrie had undergone what's known as parental alienation.


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[Assistant] It's a process where one parent consistently criticizes and devalues the other parent.


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[Assistant] With the intention of turning that child against the other parent.


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[Assistant] It's sad that, it sounds like maybe a guardian at Lightham would have been a better answer here. Honestly. Just because the relationship between Michelle and Lloyd had gotten so contentious that I think there needed to be like a third party.


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[Assistant] Because it sounded like the kids were being so affected by this.


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[Assistant] That sucks that people do this to their kids


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[Assistant] Your, your adult relationship should not have anything to do with your children. No, and it's so sad. I, I don't know why I just thought of this, but like I was looking at pictures of them together because I try to look at pictures to kind of like understand who the people are and everything.


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[Assistant] And there was pictures of like Michelle and Lloyd when they first got together and Carrie and the older sister as babies.


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[Assistant] He's looking at those pictures, and they all look so... So happy. Like he looks like a happy, goofy dad. Yeah, I think there's pictures of him like in the delivery room, like it kinda looks like.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The DA's office got ready for what they figured Lloyd's most obvious defense would be, that Carrie was the one who had killed Michelle and he was just protecting her all along. Oh yea. Because again,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And the only one who had confessed to anything was Carrie. So he easily could have turned around and, like, gone after her. Can you, if he does that? Well...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Like he's a fucking monster, but it's like how low can you go? Yeah, pretty low. Oh.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So, District Attorney Baker was anticipating an uphill battle of a trial, so he went to Lloyd with a deal offer.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Like we know Lloyd was facing several felony counts with additional charges now being added after the fact.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Because it was discovered that he and his sister Wendy, Wendy Vanilla there,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] This guy never backed down. Is he really gonna back down now?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So after the, uh, excuse me, as with the deal offered to Carrie, Lloyd would have to go before a judge and explain on the record what he had done.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He said, I thought we were gonna go bad for minute one because he starts off blaming Michelle. Wow. Blaming Michelle.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But just as quickly as he blamed her, he actually surprised everybody again by reversing his course. Baker told CBS, he sorta said, but that doesn't matter. I have no excuse. Murder is wrong.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So he did, he went before the judge on October 12th, 2018. He confessed that he had killed his ex-wife in order to quote, take custody of his 14 year old daughter.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And to end the financial burden of paying Michelle as part of a divorce settlement.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Or just, stop paying even, like even that's better than murdering someone. Anything short of murder is a better idea. Right?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I'm shocked that he just admitted all this. He had to, or else he wasn't gonna get the deal. I know, I'm surprised he took this deal, like, forcing him to admit it. I am too, because no matter what, he was gonna basically spend the rest of his life, or like, the better part of his life in prison.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Carrie is now in jail, p-facing the possibility of years in prison.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Lloyd Knight Rider should never be given the opportunity to harm anyone again. Please, Your Honor, give him life without parole.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So he is serving, servingly, combined currently and serving. You know.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And now that leaves us with Carrie. Yeah, I'm dying to know what's happening here. So a week after her father was sentenced, she went before the same judge and she was sentenced to one to three years in state prison.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Ultimately, she did serve two years of that sentence and she got released on January 16th, 2020. Wow.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now a lot of people, even before and after her sentence was passed, they went out of their way to convey that.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] In certain ways, she also was a victim, like we've been saying this whole time, of her father's cruelty. Yeah. Michelle's mother, so Carrie's grandmother.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now, reflecting on the case Brooks, Brooks Baker, hard to say, remarked, having the daughter involved was very unusual.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] This is the first case I've dealt with where the child is involved in the homicide of a parent. I hope it's my last.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But I hope the best for her, I really do. I hope she gets the help that she needs.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] She laid it down about Lloyd and then she laid it down about Carrie being manipulated. And the fact that she already had to spend so many years estranged from her daughter because of Lloyd and then Lloyd took her daughter forever.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That poor, poor family. Wow. I also hope nothing but the best for them.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It was a really cool one. I've never really had a tarot card reading resonate as much as, I've had them resonate. Yeah.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But like never to the degree that this one did. This one was knocking my socks off because we went in there.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Just give me a general one. And I feel like she was at first, she was like, I'm just going to fly off the seat of my pants here. You're giving me literally nothing. She was like, fuck you guys. And then she started.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You just gotta make it, make the transition happen, I suppose. Yeah, a cigou, if you will. A cigou. Isn't that an N, that's why we drink-ism? Oh, is it? Yeah, I think that's a M and Christine-ism.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That, she has a smile. Yes. Like I immediately just went, huh.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Cause it's just like, woo. It's like one of those smiles that like, just hits ya.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] How did this family go through all of this?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It's upsetting that it even rubbed some people the wrong way. A confident woman will always rub some people the wrong way. And it bums me out because it's like that's why people dull.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Don't tell your shit for other people. If people don't like it, that's honestly their own shit that they're gonna have to deal with.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Don't dim your sparkle. Don't dim your shit, because if, honestly, like, if you're a confident person and it pisses people around you off or people who, like, don't know you off,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It sounds like she was that, yea, it sounds like she was like that, that's just like...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeaah, it feels like you have forever, but that's not long at all. No matter what. We don't know how long forever is for any of us. It's immeasurable. So, make sure you're doing it your way. Exactly. Don't hurt anyone else, but like. No, never.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Even as much time as she was here, she was already taking...


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[Assistant] It's like a blink and everything is different. It's so scary. Yeah, it's horrifying.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, and it's the fact that she went earlier too, to make her plans that evening. It's like, that's, come on.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Ugh. Ugh. Ruined you. Yeah, that just ruined me.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I was going to say that's really detailed, so at least there's that. Whenever they have to give the description of a vehicle, you're just like,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] What happened? You know what I mean? Like when it gets that far, you're just like, oh, I hate that somebody had to.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It's like yes, it's great that they have the DNA, it's great that they know what it is at this point, but like.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Finding things and actually like really moving this forward. It's just, it seems like every time they get something they just hit this.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Okay, that's a lot. Yeah, that's, well and just for her family to have that kind of visual in their head is just like, oof.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It's not like CSI at all. It's not like Forensic Files, or it's like Forensic Files, it's not like CSI in those, you know.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Like, sitcom kind of, where the computer just goes like boop boop boop. And then it's like ding ding, and it just finds someone within five seconds. It takes time. It doesn't happen like that. There's waiting.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] All this time goes by and he's, this is the kind of shit he's still pulling. Oh yeaah. After he's killed this woman. Yeaah, he is, uh, yeaah.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Oh my god, I love that she was there to see it.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And also he was hanging his hat on that, like somehow if she had slept with multiple people, that this was fine. That it's okay that she got


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It's like, nope, no abduction can happen unless people see it. Nope, that's it.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I love that when the DNA matches, it's like, yeah, it was stupid the way you got it. Literally. And it's like, that's your argument. It still fucking matches. You did it. It doesn't matter how I got it.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Her reputation after he had brutally raped and murdered her 30 years earlier.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And you know what? My dad's dead. He can't say anything about it. So why don't we blame it on him? It's like, you have no fucking bottom, do you? Like you have no fucking bottom. No, the lowest of the low. Like the shit that that, like that man, that thing.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] We'll hit the fuckin' magma in the center of the earth, and he will still continue to go lower.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] She deserved to fucking light the world on fire, and she seemed like she was on her damn way to do it. She deserved it so much better. And it's a fucking shame that she wasn't allowed to.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It would be not as good, I think, in my opinion. Uh, so I am going to make it five and I'm gonna keep the Jack the Ripper stuff for part five because I, I wanna find a ship manifest that I've been seeing rumblings of but I can't seem to find the actual ship manifest. Which seems to be


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] A lot of the, uh, issue in the Jack the Ripper theories is a lot of people say stuff.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] No one's got any documentation to back it up. So it's like, oh yeah, I think there was a home zone, a ship on the way to UK, like during that whole thing. And you're like, whoa.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] We will end at five, don't worry. I'm not gonna take this like the longest series we've ever had.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] We'll just tie it with Jack. We'll just tie it with Jack. It's pretty much up there. Uhm, but in this one we're gonna talk about


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Several murders that he committed. Pretty brutal ones. They're all pretty brutal, but these ones involve children. So, yeaah, he's a real monster.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And the child in that situation. Uh, poor Pearl.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But you know what, when we last left you guys, I'll give you a little recap because I know there's a lot to take in in this series, so I think it's probably helpful to be like, this is what happened in the last one. I need the recap.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He's married again. Remember he is, uh, still married to Marta, still married to Clara. And now Georgiana? Georgiana is now his new wife. Uh, he fake married Minnie, who he killed, and her sister. He real married Minnie.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He has sent Benjamin Pitezel to Fort Worth, Texas to start getting the new Texas murder castle underway.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Like he's ready to start this whole process over with a whole other murder castle. Like same way.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He's doing that on the land that he made Minnie Williams transfer into he and Benjamin's alias's names after he, and then he murdered her.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, now he's seeming to begin to turn on Benjamin a little bit after they both decided collectively to defraud an insurance company by faking Benjamin's death and using another corpse to pretend it's his.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, it's looking like Benjamin's time as his lackey is coming to a tragic end at this point. Yeah, I had a feeling this episode was going to be pipe-centric. Yeah, it's not great for that entire family, to be quite honest. By the time Holmes and Georgiana arrived in Fort Worth to claim the land deeded to him by many,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, Pitesel had already been there for a few weeks. He was there with his young son Howard, just getting things together.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So when he first got to Texas, Pitezel had to receive the land deeded to his alias Benton Lyman, and he had to transfer it back again to Holmes. Okay. Now initially, I'll just give you a little rundown of how it initially happened so you remember.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Minnie was to transfer it into Holmes' alias, who she didn't know. She thought this was another buyer.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Like, it would at least be like, looked at. Uhm, this time instead of, uhm, like HH Homes, they put it into Harry Homes' name.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And this deed, like, this deed has been like, boop, boop, boop, boop, like you said, like somebody, you would think somebody would maybe catch, but again, I think it's just the time period. Even back then.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I'm like damn, you didn't think that was weird? It's been like six times. Yea, cause like this deed has been around more times than a Broadway show. Yea, for real. Like it truly has. And from there, Pitesell selected a parcel of land on the corner of 2nd and Rusk streets, and that's where they were gonna put the Murder Castle.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The castle was going to be built under the watch of construction superintendent H.M. Pratt. And guess who that was?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, H. H. Holmes. Yep, that was another one of his aliases. This is messy as fuck. How did he get track of them all? He has so, he has 40 plus aliases. That's so crazy.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And he basically started doing the same shit he did in Chicago with the construction of this one. He wanted to build another murder castle, so he had to be weird and sneaky about it, so he would fire the workers every now and then to keep the plans from being fully realized. He did, however, switch up his game a little, and he started out actually paying people.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Huh. That's, which is shocking for him. That's weird. But then he was right back on his bullshit and stopped. He was like, that sucks. Yeah. He was like, Oh, I don't like that. I don't not like that. And he had a million excuses for why he couldn't pay on time. And he also went back to taking out loans and buying furniture and fixtures for the building on credit.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And then he would just not pay, and then he would just hide the items from the creditors when they came to take them back.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Castle now where he's hiding all these furnishings. Yeah, exactly.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now, unfortunately for him, Holmes was not going to stick around in Texas long enough to see this castle actually come to fruition. Ooh, what happened? Uh, in the spring of 1894, he and Pitesel began that scheme.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] This is the beginning not of the insurance fraud scheme, it's the beginning of the scheme that would kind of unravel everything for him.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] This scheme was they would travel around the state buying horses and they would buy these horses with


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Worthless promissory notes and deeds.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Not cash. So like bad checks essentially? Basically. And then they would sell them for cash and move on before the seller figured out that they'd been scammed. Oh.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But this plan fell apart when they were both arrested like idiots. Oh shit. Yeah, once they were, cause it was a shitty plan to begin with, somebody was gonna catch on. And once they were out on Bond, investigators now were like, huh, we should begin looking into these guys a little bit more. Because Holmes, they were like, yeah, he has a few things on his records here. So it was definitely gonna bring more detectives on his tail.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And gathering up just some of their belongings and all the money that Holmes had managed to raise at this point for the castle. Holmes and Georgiana.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And does she know- she knows about the scheme obviously because now she's on the run with him. We don't know what she knew. Okay. It's one of those things where like, I don't know. Yeah.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Georgie didn't know. She knew something, but I don't know what she knew. Okay. At this point, Holmes was on the run now for two crimes. He was on the run still from Chicago for the arson of the original. My god, I literally forgot. And now he's on the run for horse thievery.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But no, after he fled Texas, they went to St. Louis, and St. Louis is four hours from Chicago, technically. Don't you think you would just like go to Europe? And it's like, that's the thing, and it's 12 hours from Texas.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Obviously these two things are in like car, you know, which like at the time is not really relevant. But it's like, they're not crazy far. It's not like across the country, you know what I mean? So it's like, that's weird that you didn't go further away, I guess.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But he had to have a reason in that, for like going to St. Louis, and that reason was that Georgiana was turning 25 in the fall.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And that was when she was gonna inherit the rest of the estate left to her by her grandmother in Indiana.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] To wait and then pounce on that when she turned 25. And he was just gonna like throw her down a shoe. He's so gross. He really is. Well in St. Louis, he called himself, is it St. Louis or St. Louis? I say St. Louis. I say St. Louis. I'm sure I will get yelled at for that, but like. I don't, I think it's probably interchangeable. Right? I'm asking Mikey about it.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You know what I always think of Meet Me in St. Louis? Isn't that like a musical or something? Uhm.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So, uh, St. Louis. So that French guy, I believe, and he said St. Louis.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I don't know. It could be either one. Maybe if it's like, if you're from there you say it.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Maybe. And I'm not from there, so it's not, you know, it's not my business.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, St. Louis, I'll say now. Okay. I've said it both ways now, so I've covered all bases. So here we are. Uh, after arriving in, settling in St. Louis? In the St. Place. Yeah. Um, so while he's there, he called himself H.M. Howard.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Occupy his attention. And that he really didn't care a lot about profits because he was just


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And he used a little cash to buy it, but then he bought the rest of it with ding ding ding useless promissory notes and stock.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He's greedy as fuck. Him. He is Scrooge McDuck. Literally. He is swimming in a bunch of gold coins and he's not giving them up. But he's not cute. Scrooge McDuck is. No, he's not. That's true.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, but yeaah, he did the same old thing. He bought furniture and fixings for this store on credit, no intention of paying for it. Stupid, stupid, stupid. Soon after arriving and settling there, Benjamin Pitesell joined them.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He had moved there with his wife Carrie and their five children.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh oh. This was when Holmes let Benjamin's wife Carrie in on the plan that he and her husband were working on. They needed her help with it. Uh oh. Their plan was to defraud the Fidelity Mutual Insurance Company by faking Ben's death.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] They needed her in on it because they needed to fake his death and they needed her to help. You're not gonna fool fidelity. No.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And they did not. I don't feel. Uh, but meanwhile, Holmes was also already on the path of selling the pharmacy and then running away from the massive debt that he had compiled with the pharmacy. Everywhere. So he's just like, oops, that sucked and now we're going to run away from that and it's on to the next thing. It's just amazing.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I think in the end it seems like he became anxious and he became paranoid and it started to, in the beginning I think he was having a fucking blast with it because I don't think anything was catching up to him in the beginning. Well and I think in the beginning there was less to keep track of. And then it just kept piling on and now he's basically


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But Holmes and Beitzel bought, uhm, found a buyer for the drug store. But in order to buy the store, the man had to take a loan from a supplier. And when he did this, he had to promise that supplier that they would be his main supplier. That was kind of the part of the whole thing. That makes sense. And that was in exchange for the money they were gonna pay.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The problem, however, was that Holmes already had a mortgage on the store.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Which meant that any additional mortgage on the same property would have been illegal and invalid.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He was, so he bought this drug store, had no intention of running it properly, did all the same shit, bought it with worthless notes.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Bought the fixings for it with all bullshit credit that he wasn't paying. And then he turns to sell it to somebody illegally and he doesn't think that this person


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He thought he was so much smarter than everybody around him. That was... It's pretty par for the course with serial killers, I feel like. They always think they're smarter than everybody and no one's gonna...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Outsmart me. And it's like, you're a fucking idiot. It's narcissism. You're not smart. No. You're cunning. And you are a shithead.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So he was in jail for two weeks and was finally bonded out by Georgiana. Oh man. That's why I say.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, but the day she bonded him out, they went to the train station and were intending to flee right back to Chicago.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But you're wanted there too, brother. And what they were gonna do there was regroup, kinda formulate the next part of a giant fucked up plan.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And the police sergeant said that he was afraid the proposed trip would have to be postponed.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And became almost hysterical and denounced the arrest as persecution. Georgie, calm down.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So, off he goes, back to retail. And they set bail at $800, which at that point was $50,000 at present. They were like, you're fucked up and we're not letting you out of here. Uh, no one had that cash at the time. So Georgiana went to Indiana and retrieved the deed to some of the land she was going to be inheriting.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Okay. It was, it's old timey. They were gonna hand over a deed to land. Makes sense. He was released from custody the next day. Damn. So he had only spent a couple of weeks in jail before that, but he made some networking moves once he was in there. Because we know Holmes always is closing. He's working on a pyramid scheme, even in the walls of the prison. He's an idiot.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Holmes told him about his scheme to defraud the insurance company by faking Pite Cell's death, passing off another body as his, and then he was like, we're gonna flee the country after that.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Cause I've kinda used up a lot of these states and I should probably get out. Now according to HedgePath, Holmes offered to bring him in on the scheme. But he was like, no I'm good.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] There was something about homes that he was concerned about and like,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] There was also like a pesky little detail that Marion was serving a 25 year sentence, so like...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, this lawyer agreed to help Holmes and Pitesel pull off the insurance scheme once they arrived in Philadelphia. That'll get you debarred. Uh, he was morally gray maybe in understatement.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The morally corrupt FR. Very, uh, unscrupulous, I would say. Oh, I love that word. That's a good word. Unscrupulous. Uh, but Hedgepeth later told reporters, quote,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I am now convinced that he would sooner or later have murdered me had I been able to accompany him on his intended trip abroad.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now meanwhile, as soon as Holmes was bonded out of jail, he and Georgiana left St. Louis, St. Louis and headed to Philadelphia to meet with Benjamin Pizzo.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Along the way, they stopped in Indiana to visit Georgiana's mother where Holmes told her they were going to be traveling to Germany to look after his uncle's property.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now Georgiana did stay behind in Indiana a little bit, just for a little while, just like visit with family, while Holmes went straight to Philadelphia after this to start the whole scam.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So Benjamin Pytzel got to Philadelphia on August 17th, 1894. Within a couple of days, he opened a business, and it was a patent business under the name B.F. Perry.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Another Aurelius. Another, another one. Yeaah. This is what Holmes had told him to do.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Once he'd established himself, the plan was that how the unscrupulous, the morally gray lawyer.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Disfiguring the corpse so much that they could pass it off as Pitesel's body without a lot of suspicion. And then once they'd faked his death, Pitesel was gonna go into hiding and Holmes and Pitesel's wife Carrie would split the $10,000 insurance payout.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Sounds great. On the morning of September 1st, the doorbell rang at the apartment Holmes was sharing with Georgiana.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And he went downstairs to open the door. And it was the police! He came back inside and he told Georgiana that the man at the door...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Was from the Pennsylvania Railroad Company.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He said he had been working with them on a contract to sell copiers. Chris, remember he had a weird copier business at one point. No, I literally forgot that. He like, it was a fake copier business, like ABC copiers or something like that. But he's like, oh yeah, he's this guy, he's like, works for the railroad company, just like, you know, we have a contract, we're going to sell copiers.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That's what he told Georgiana. That's why I say I don't know what Georgiana knew. She knew some things, but he would lie to her about a lot of things. Totally. Because later, Holmes told investigators that this man was actually Benjamin Pitezel at the door.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I can't do this scheme with you. I have to leave and take care of my kid.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So this man comes to Holmes and says, my youngest child is sick, and Holmes is like, you're not leaving, and I'm gonna make sure.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] One thing about Holmes was like, don't double cross him, don't fuck with him, don't fuck with his schemes, if you even show slight


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Backing out or, and even for valid reasons, even if you're saying my kid is sick, I gotta leave, he's like betrayal. Like he immediately looks at that as like, you don't value our shit here as much as you should. I know other people like that too.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Exactly. It's crazy. So that's exactly what happened, was he was like, oh, your kid is sick?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I'm gonna fuck your world up now. And it's like, oh, okay, he's just trying to go home and be a dad, but like, okay. But like, fuck him, right? Yeah, fuck him. So he was, I think he was just really fucking mad that he fucked up his plan. And he figured that actually killing Benjamin would probably be easier than faking it at this point. And since he was mad already, he was like, I want to kill him now. So.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Then you have to worry about his whole family, which I have a feeling he will.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That caused Pitesel to begin drinking heavily. Okay.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, then he claimed that on the second September, uhm, yeaah, September 2nd, he showed up at the B.F. Perry Laboratory and found Pitezel in a drunken stupor.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That's what he's claiming is confession. So the next day he said,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He was upset about his wife and what was going on and then we found him in a drunken stupor at the laboratory.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That when the day came upon which it was convenient for me to kill him, even before I went to his house, I packed my trunk and made other arrangements to leave Philadelphia in a hurried flight immediately after his death.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You got a friend in him. Yeaah, like holy shit. Jesus Christ. So according to the confession, Holmes said he entered the, uh, he entered the building, he went to the second floor, and that's where he found Pitesell passed out.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He said quote, only one difficulty presented itself.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It was necessary for me to kill him in such a manner that no struggle or movement of his body should occur.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And then he soaked his entire body in, like in, uhm, I think it was ben, what was it, benzene? It was like some chemical. And then he just burned him alive. Yeah, that'll look like suicide.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Burned him alive. That's so horrific. He burned this man alive.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Like, didn't light the building on fire, just burned him alive first. And then was gonna light the building on fire. So didn't even bother to light the building on fire and leave. He burned this man alive in front of him.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So do you think he really did do that then, or do you think he's bluffing? He definitely did that. Oh, he definitely did. It's like proven, yeaah. So once the body was sufficiently disfigured, and basically burned beyond recognition, Holmes claimed that he removed the bindings,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Homes threw things around and ransacked the room to make it look like an accidental explosion had caused damage to the remains.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Then he went further and he had like a detailed narrative to the scene. He broke the bottle of chloroform and benzene that he had used, then left an extinguished match near the spilled liquid.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So it made it look like Pitesel had attempted to light his pipe too close to the flammable liquids and caused an explosion. That actually is like...