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[Assistant] When we got to Athens, we had to take a train from the airport to where we were staying, and this was a challenge because none of us could speak or read Greek. But, after a few hours, we finally figured it out, and we're stepping off the train into beautiful, nope, not beautiful, we were stepping into what we did not know at the time was one of the most dangerous neighborhoods in Greece. Great! Awesome!


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[Assistant] It was dark, and we pretty much sprinted to our Airbnb from the train station, and did not leave until the next morning to go into the actual town of Athens and explore. Ha! Tricked you, nothing bad happens in Athens, even though it would've been ma- even though it would've made more sense based on where we were staying. Now it's time to go to Mykonos. Mykonos! Mykonos. It just reminds me of, uhm, wasn't that where Lindsay Lohan's, uh,


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[Assistant] I think it was Mykonos. So we got on our plan to fly from Athens to Mykonos. I meant to say Plain. And then we find our beautiful Airbnb. It's a ground level studio that opens up to the blue and white cobblestone streets of Greece with blue shutters and we basically realize we are living out our Mamma Mia dreams. Hell yea, that's awesome.


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[Assistant] The studio is one room, and in that room is the kitchen, and an area for three twin beds. Then there's a little door off to the side where the bathroom is. The kitchen is near the front door, and there's a little sink with cheddars above it.


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[Assistant] Now, it is important to note for the story that most windows in Greece are just shutters. Two shutters on the inside.


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[Assistant] And two on the outside that hook together. There is no glass.


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[Assistant] So we're settling into our Airbnb and it's about 8pm when we decide we should go out for some drinks.


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[Assistant] We start walking around the town and find this bar that's right on the water.


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[Assistant] Staying at this bar was an obvious and easy choice. All three of us are having the best time drinking, meeting people from all over the world, and just dancing the night away.


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[Assistant] My morbid brain immediately jumps into action and I say, no, we are fine. Screw the thank you and being polite. There's no room to be nice when it's dark and you're kind of lost in a different country. Bye. So we keep walking and are chatting to each other when I turn around again and the man is still behind us.


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[Assistant] And we crouch down behind a small wall to hide. Good for you. The man walks right past us. We realize our front door is directly across from where we are.


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[Assistant] Once the man is out of sight, me and my friends run to the front door, unlock it, and go inside. My heart is racing. Hannah goes to lay down in one of the beds, but I suggest to Allison that we barricade the door in the windows so if he somehow saw where we live and tries to get in, then all this stuff will fall over and wake us up.


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[Assistant] So. Smart. Very smart. So, we stack our suitcases and chairs in front of the front door and then we stack plates and cups in front of the window above the sink. That's so smart. That was really smart. That's what my mom did in Boston when the Boston Strangler was around. I was just thinking that. And to think of that, like after a night of drinking is especially, I'm like hell yeaah. That's very impressive.


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[Assistant] We also agree that we should grab some type of defense tool from the kitchen, but when we begin looking for something, all the Airbnb has is frickin' butter knives. Butter knives. I can't even cut butter straight out of the fridge with a butter knife, but it'll have to do.


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[Assistant] So Allison and I grab the butter knives, setting one next to peacefully sleeping Hannah, and we get into our beds. We decide to keep the lights on because that shit was scary and after about 30 minutes we both fall asleep.


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[Assistant] It sounds like the shutters are moving. She's half asleep and says, it's probably just the wind.


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[Assistant] So I get back into my bed and keep my eyes locked on the shutters above the kitchen sink.


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[Assistant] As I do, the banging gets louder and I see them begin to shake in and out of the window slots.


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[Assistant] This time, I spring out of bed with my butter knife and shake Allison awake.


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[Assistant] She immediately looks at the shutters and goes, okay, probably not the wind. We both quietly.


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[Assistant] There, halfway through our window is the man who followed us home with a black ski mask pulled over his face. Oh fuck that. Kill him. Kill him.


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[Assistant] We had a lot to bet as Allison calls the police, but the language barrier is making it impossible for them to know where we're located. The police simply say that they're on their way and hang up.


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[Assistant] I grab the phone, it was not my best moment, and start yelling at them to freaking find us before the man comes back and that no, I will not be going outside when he could be waiting right there. Honestly, your finest moment, don't worry about it. All the police say is that they'll continue to try to find us. We all sit on the bed waiting for them to arrive, keeping in contact with our family. When the police finally do arrive, it is 8am.


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[Assistant] 8am. It took them over 3 hours to find us when we were literally in the heart of Mykonos. Wow, that's upsetting.


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[Assistant] When they get there, they ask us questions and we try to explain what happened to the best of our ability. When we finally go outside, we see a huge black footprint on the window platform where he tried to come in. That's terrifying.


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[Assistant] She gave us a full refund, apologized profusely saying that nothing like this has ever happened at the Airbnb, and even recommended a safe hotel on the island. What a mama bear.


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[Assistant] We got out of that Airbnb so fast and went to check into the hotel.


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[Assistant] We ended up staying in Mykonos, and it still is my favorite place I visited while studying abroad, so don't let this story stop you from going.


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[Assistant] Maybe just know where your Airbnb is and get home before 1am. There you go. I'm still left wondering what he wanted. Us, our passports, money, who knows. All I know is screw that guy. Truly. Honestly.


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[Assistant] For real. I've gone to therapy because having this happen to you three times messes with you pretty bad, and I'm happy to say that I'm doing better. Oh, I'm glad.


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[Assistant] Whoa. Daisy is a beautiful, beautiful muffin that I literally just want to snuggle. I love her, Daisy Mae! And that chuprin is horrifying. Oh my god, and your cats, Theo, Ted, and Mr. Munchie Man. Mr. Munchie Man! Oh my god.


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[Assistant] You have great hair. Great hair. Uhm, wow, that was absolutely terrifying. Yeaah. He did it. He did it.


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[Assistant] Well that was a fantastical installment of Listener Tales. It was like slightly international at times.


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[Assistant] There were, there were beautiful little whimsical flurries in the air this morning. Really? For a little bit. And I said, oh! And then they went away. I didn't see those.


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[Assistant] Yeah, it didn't snow literally at all, and the girls love snow, and I can't wait to see Sydney and Blanche in snow.


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[Assistant] See with kids of a certain age, you just know that your snow day is going to be spent putting on and off wet snow suits all day.


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[Assistant] And having red cheeks. Red cheeks. But also having so much fun because sledding with them is hilarious. Oh, I love sledding with them. And also with dogs now, it's going to be cleaning up all the dog.


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[Assistant] Like shenanigans when they run in from the snow. So, it'll be a pretty relaxing weekend.


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[Assistant] I think those are just townies. No, they call them the town elders. They had to speak to for Luke to buy a certain house. You know, you guys don't care. But they had to talk to the town elders about it in a sauna. Yeah. That's where I would be.


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[Assistant] Fucking quickly. Sure did. It went from like their pretty Instagram curated on the outside and like some shits, you know, kinda unravel a little bit on the inside to like, she was actively trying to get a hit on her husband.


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[Assistant] What kind of friendship do you have where you feel comfortable asking that person if they, first of all, confiding that you would like your husband murdered?


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[Assistant] But uhm, one, I don't want to kill my husband. That's good. Good news. I don't think any of them know someone who would if I wanted to.


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[Assistant] Sometimes, and it's like, the other one's like, same. Like, where does that happen? That's it. Lorna just feels like, I'm like, that was bold. It was bold. And her friends felt that way too.


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[Assistant] Like, mm, you're not what I need for like a life partner, but like I could, I could like mold you into what I need right now. It's like, what about that sounds appealing?


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[Assistant] There's like such, what is the word? Divorce. I think it's divorce is what could happen.


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[Assistant] Just divorce your partners and be together if that's what you really want. Like you don't need to have an affair. Like there's an out here. But then I'm like, if you put in there,


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[Assistant] If that is true, which we don't know, if that is true that he's abusive towards her and the children, then maybe that is the most dangerous time.


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[Assistant] For somebody in an abusive relationship is trying to get out of it. And that's important to say. So there is that.


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[Assistant] To at least hang on to their one more like, guys what the fuck. Right. Still not saying it's awesome to like, have an affair, cause it's with somebody else's husband too, and it's like, also kinda your friend.


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[Assistant] Yeah, like you know of her. So that's not cool, but like I guess me quickly saying like get a divorce is like...


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[Assistant] Me saying it without having knowledge of being in an abusive relationship that...


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[Assistant] Yeah, taking care of those kids, she's working, bettering herself. What about me? Educating herself. Here I am, playing baseball. Right. A little bit of basketball.


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[Assistant] If you had a strong relationship, then this would not be a problem and you guys could understand that it might be a little tough for a little while and you might not see each other as much, but you're working towards goals and once you get there, things will be different. Kids will get older, things get a little easier, like you see more of each other, but this obviously was not a relationship that could stand that time.


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[Assistant] And it's like, so why is this a shock to you that she's still that way?


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[Assistant] Potential issue, which we have no proof whether that's true or not. So it's like, if that's the case, then yeaah, that's a roadblock.


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[Assistant] That just like fits that vibe of like she was doing everything she needs to do, working hard. She would be one of those that's like, where are your seat belts? Idiots.


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[Assistant] He can't, or like when he tries to get in after I've been on it, he can't get in without moving the seat back. There's a very noticeable difference.


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[Assistant] Also everybody, how are the kids doing? I know. In this whole planned thing that just was done in front of your children. Yea, that's like, probably the most fucked up aspect.


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[Assistant] No way. It's bonkers to me. Not with a job like that. And it's like, that's wild.


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[Assistant] A toddler to a second grader amount of time?


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[Assistant] I don't know. And I still don't want anyone who conspired to commit murder to be my pastor.


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[Assistant] Oh, that's so awful. Of course it is. Like that's the mother of his child, of his children. Yeah.


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[Assistant] And like it doesn't even sound, like it sounds like their marriage was not good. No, not at all.


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[Assistant] Or just, you know, driving with your four, I think, like, don't they have four kids? Four kids. Yeah.


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[Assistant] That's a whole other set of traumas that you have put on your children.


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[Assistant] And those fucking kids, I feel so bad for both sets of these kids. I know.


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[Assistant] In this situation and for Dr. Eckert. Yup.


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[Assistant] Oh, it's, I mean, Dave, when we were talking about it was like, why is this not?


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[Assistant] But it's just really, really intense, so. Okay. You know, I think you need to buckle up for it, but.


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[Assistant] Hold on to your butts. Hold on to those butts. But before we get into it, I just want to say, uhm,


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[Assistant] We got to go on stage with Pod Meets World. It was the coolest thing I think we've ever gotten to do. We got to hang out with Topanga.


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[Assistant] Eric and Sean from Boy Meets World. And Harley. And fucking Harley Kiner. And they are just the nicest people. I'm telling you, you know that whole thing, we say it all the time, we're like, oh, you always get scared, you're like, don't meet your heroes, don't do it, because they can disappoint you. No, meet your


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[Assistant] I'm telling you guys, it's uh, Daniel Fischl, Will Friedle, Ryder Strong, and Danny McNulty as Harley Keiner.


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[Assistant] And I'm telling you they were the sweetest people. Truly. I-


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[Assistant] Like, I'm 37 years old, you guys know how many times I reference like Sabrina the Teenage Witch and Boy Meets World. It's always those two. Yea, it's always those that just like, I go right back to because they were literally my adolescence.


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[Assistant] And walking into a room and seeing just the squad. Sean Hunter, Topanga and Eric. Just sitting there. You acted cool. Thank you for saying that because inside of my body was a fucking a fright. See I know that because I know you but


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[Assistant] Yeah. They're just really kind people. They're hilarious. So funny. Very like welcoming. It was a lot of fun sitting on a couch next to Eric. I was like, I don't know. Just unreal. What the fuck happened here?


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[Assistant] Yeah, they were great. And it's like, so this is all also to say, like, the only reason we are able to do this stuff is cause you guys listened to this show. Which is still wild. Uh, thanks for that.


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[Assistant] Yes. You know what? Correct. It does. Yes, you were right the first time. Trust me, I've been here. Uh, but yeah, I think we want to do a hometown show. We got the bug. Next year, so we'll let you, we'll keep you guys updated on that. Yeah, definitely next year at some point. It was just really fun to go out there.


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[Assistant] I wanted to warn you. I appreciate that. I have to sneeze. Yeah, it was just really fun, but uhm.


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[Assistant] Thanks to Pod Meets Worlds, thanks to all of them, and thanks to you guys, and that was an awesome experience, and again, you guys are the best. So now, uh, I'm gonna ruin your life with this story, so I'm sorry that I'm taking you here.


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[Assistant] And you're also gonna have to know about the horrific case of OC Sneed. Okay. Uh, this is an older one, but I promise you.


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[Assistant] It's not lacking in, uh, drama. Okay. So the death of Ossie Snead in East Orange, New Jersey. What's up, New Jersey? Um, it was an, it was an undeniable tragedy, but her death was really only be the beginning of what would become one of the early 20th centuries.


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[Assistant] Truly most captivating crime stories. Oh man. Like, it's pulled directly out of the pages of some kinda like classic southern gothic horror novel.


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[Assistant] Got a lot of elements. And like any good gothic horror story, the trial that followed was also full of unbelievable twists and ended up culminating in a pretty shocking conclusion. Really?


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[Assistant] Yeah, usually, a lot of times the old, the older cases have some wily trials.


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[Assistant] Exactly, and they had to change laws and shit. Alright, so let's first begin with OC. Who is OC Sneed? Tell me. Now, like many aspects of this story, OC's date of birth and several other


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[Assistant] You know, details about her are kind of shrouded in a little bit of mystery. The 1900s of it all. Yeah, she was born in New York, New York in September of 1885. I don't know exactly what date it was. Potentially.


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[Assistant] A Virgo. Exactly. We couldn't find one that we felt comfortable being like this is definitely her birthday.


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[Assistant] Uh, her name was Oceana Wardlaw Martin.


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[Assistant] Uh, she was the daughter of Caroline Wardlaw and Colonel Robert Maxwell Martin, who was a very celebrated Confederate veteran of the American Civil War.


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[Assistant] Now from the perspective of his confederate peers, gotta be clear about that. Yeah, let's be clear. Robert Martin was a war hero.


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[Assistant] When their attempt to, uh, burn New York City ultimately failed. Yeah, that didn't work out.


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[Assistant] I don't know if you guys know it, but uh, New York City's still there. He led an unsuccessful attempt to kidnap Vice President Andrew Johnson. He for that was eventually captured and imprisoned, and he was released from prison when the war ended and moved back to the South.


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[Assistant] Now Robert still had a fortune, like he ended up, he was never in dire straits here.


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[Assistant] Uhm, and Robert supervised the construction of a large mansion in Wilder Park, Kentucky. In the early 1880s, tragedy struck.


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[Assistant] Because the family mansion burned to the ground under suspicious circumstances. That's ironic. Yeah, I know.


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[Assistant] The couple lived for a short amount of time in a much smaller house on the grounds of the mansion, but that quickly became a little unsustainable following the birth of the couple's first child. Okay. So Robert relocated the family to New York City and Caroline gave birth to Ossie, Ossiana in the fall of 1885.


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[Assistant] Yeah, it's a little strange. There was a brief period of success and calm for the family until about 1900 when tragedy struck again. That's when Robert's son died from brain fever, encephalitis. That's what they used to call encephalitis.


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[Assistant] He died after, so he, he has, he had encephalitis and that's what he died from, but it was after a particularly bad fall down the stairs in their home in New York.


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[Assistant] Can you also remind me what encephalitis is, please? Uhm, it's like inflammation of the brain.


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[Assistant] Oh, so that's why they call it brain fever. Gotcha, gotcha.


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[Assistant] Like the fire that destroyed the family home in Kentucky before?


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[Assistant] The circumstances under which, you know, the Robert's son died were somewhat suspicious. Okay. I'm catching onto a theme here, if you will. What's more suspicious was the speed at which his father collected a payout from the $22,000 life insurance policy.


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[Assistant] They could have used money. Like it came in interesting timing. Yeaah, which it seems like insurance policies in this story come at


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[Assistant] Now, that $22,000 life insurance policy now would be $700,000. Holy shit. So sizable.


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[Assistant] Well yeaah, but like $700,000. That's on another level, baby. And it's like, so, there's a lot there.


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[Assistant] Now despite this, and it all just went to plan, despite this, the insurance payout allowed the family to move to a much nicer home on 5th Avenue actually. Imagine that.


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[Assistant] Silver linings, I guess. Unfortunately, the excitement of the new home wouldn't last long. Before tragedy struck again. Because only a few months after moving in, neighbors heard a commotion coming from the Martin house and they ran over to see what was happening and found Robert had suffered a paralytic stroke.


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[Assistant] Robert did hold on for a little while and ended up living for a short period of time in very bad health and then finally ended up succumbing and dying on January 12th, 1901.


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[Assistant] Following Robert's death, Caroline packed up her daughter and moved them both back to her hometown of Murfreesboro, Tennessee. Okay. That's where Caroline's sister Virginia was actually in charge of the Murfreesboro Soul Female College, where Caroline's other sister, she had two sisters, Mary, was a member of the faculty. Cool. So Virginia is the president of the school.


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[Assistant] Mary is part of the faculty. Caroline hadn't let them know that she was coming, but.


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[Assistant] They took her in right away and they found her a job as the school's new bookkeeper. So they're all working at this school together.


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[Assistant] Now it seems by all accounts that Virginia and Mary's existence at the school before this were fairly normal. Uh oh.


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[Assistant] Uh, Sewell Female College was touted as providing, quote, a traditional southern education for women in cultural studies and social grace.


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[Assistant] Ooh, social grace. Now, Virginia was named president of the school in 1892 and the school really thrived under her leadership and became very highly acclaimed.


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[Assistant] She was well respected, she ran the program with discipline, with honor. According to all who knew her at the time, she was...


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[Assistant] So yeaah, okay. Yeaah, I get it. Uhm, and Mary had raised two sons, and when they had grown and married, she joined the faculty at school. So everybody seemed like they had, you know, taken a good path. Again, seemed to be killing it.


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[Assistant] Reset button. And no one really understood why. Like again, everything seemed to be going pretty chill. People said the sisters like Mary in Virginia could be like,


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[Assistant] I just said Virginia. Uh, I didn't mean to say that. Uh, they seemed, they were like a little strange.


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[Assistant] But like, but relatively, you know, they weren't like problematic or anything, you know, like they were just living, you know, existing. Okay. But.


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[Assistant] Marion, Virginia completely changed when court Caroline showed up.


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[Assistant] Uhm, once, they were once known to keep very ordinary schedules. They were, you know, a president of a female college and a part of the faculty after all. It's not like they were doing these crazy things. But the sisters now had a habit of going out very late at night, in the middle of the night.


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[Assistant] They would literally break into students' rooms while they were sleeping and stand and stare at them. For why? I do not know.


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[Assistant] Because they also hired a driver to drop them off at Evergreen Cemetery every evening where they were said to carry on with strange rituals and chanting.


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[Assistant] They would, I mean later you'll see like the behavior gets even stranger. They would like move people out of classrooms and into other classrooms and move them back and like.


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[Assistant] What? Well, and the thing is, in 1904, the obvious and very dramatic and strange change in Marion, Virginia's behavior was very unsettling to the students of Seoul Female College.


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[Assistant] Who had known them forever. Right, as like pretty normal people. As pretty normal and very disciplined and like, you know, respectful people. Yeah. And one account said, frightened students started to leave the school and it wasn't long before the school was in chaos and the Black Sisters, as they were known to be called, were asked to leave.


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[Assistant] There were also rumors that Caroline was maybe pocketing some money from the school, allegedly.


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[Assistant] Now fortunately, the sister's great aunt, Oceana Pollock,


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[Assistant] Who OC is doing after. Needed help at Montgomery Female College in Virginia. Okay. So she looked at this whole, like, them leaving in disgrace thing as like, ah, it's


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] No, when Virginia came to run the program, it was like she fell back into her old ways. Her old ways of teaching, her old ways of running things. Everything was great. Virginia was back. She was like, oh, I know, I'm kooky, but like,


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[Assistant] And the thing is, Caroline joined with Ossie, her daughter. Okay. And things fucked up again.


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[Assistant] It's her. She's the problem. It's Caroline. Uh, so Caroline ended up visiting Mary's son, John Snead. Okay. Who was her nephew.


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[Assistant] Reports say she quote unquote caused trouble and quote unquote interfered in John's marriage.


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[Assistant] I don't know if you've ever heard of the term home record. I sure have. I sure have. I'm sorry, what?


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[Assistant] There's a lot of uh, when you read about this particular time in this, in this story, nothing's outwardly said.


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[Assistant] Uh huh. And he refused at first. He was like no. Yup. I'm not gonna run away with my aunt. Stop. I don't like it. I'm not gonna do that. But she returned a couple of weeks later and uh, interfered again. Uh huh.


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[Assistant] And this time her, uh, interference convinced him to leave his fucking wife, Anna. She had a Cosmo article. Come with her.


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[Assistant] And he did. He came with her. And left Anna. Just abandoned her.


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[Assistant] He managed to survive that. How does Mary feel about all this? Isn't that her kid? I don't think any of them are mother of the year, I would say. But he managed to survive that and then one week later he was found on fire in his bed.


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[Assistant] Uh, one Mikey- You found this? Was the one to bring this up, and I said, holy shit. Yeah, where the fuck did you find this?


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[Assistant] Now remember, he fell from a train approaching Roanoke that Caroline was on. Weird. He almost drowned in a cistern on campus where Virginia found him. Coincidence. And then he was lit on fire with kerosene in his bed. And Caroline found him. Like Virginia and Caroline.


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[Assistant] Interesting that Mary's never around. Mary's just like, whoopsie. Now following his death, the sisters, all three of them, collected, uh, an insurance payout. Those bitches love insurance. Wish they had taken out. So, strange.


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[Assistant] Now, in 1906, around the time of John Sneed's unexpected and very tragic death. Cause he died after the fire, obviously. He sure did.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, Caroline paid a visit to his brother.


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[Assistant] Fletcher, her other nephew. Stop, I love the name Fletcher. Uhm, he was still living in Tennessee.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Caroline explained that there would be some family property near Chattanooga that needed looking after and asked whether Fletcher would be willing to pay a visit to the property. Okay. But Fletcher's wife was like, I heard about you. Well, and she was like, okay. But she was like, I'm.


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[Assistant] And told her, no, he can't come to the film right now. And she was like, what the fuck do you mean he can't come to the film right now? And she was like, he's sick. And he was, she was like, well, I want to talk to him. And he was, she was like, too sick to talk.


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[Assistant] And she was like, the fuck do you mean too sick to talk? And she was like, I don't know bitch. And then she hung up the phone. That's quotes. Literally like the transcript. So.


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[Assistant] She was like, ah, I don't know about that. So she contacts again and she's like, how's he doing? Can I talk to him? And she's like, nah, still can't talk to him. Still too sick. And then she's like, you know what? He'll, he'll, I'll send him home in a few weeks when he's better. A few weeks. So in a few weeks had come and gone with no word from Fletcher.


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[Assistant] Fletcher's wife set out for Chattanooga and was like, I'm coming, I'm coming, I'm coming for you, baby.


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[Assistant] Now when she arrived at the boarding house that he had supposedly been staying at, the woman there was told her that Fletcher had indeed been there, but she had, but then


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[Assistant] He had been moved to another house by Caroline. Caroline loves moving people places. Moved her to another house, to another house.


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[Assistant] So Fletcher's wife follows, she fucking Sherlock Holmes it. Good for this girly. She, Detective Aberline's this. Love it. Like she...


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[Assistant] Follows Caroline's trail. Always a few steps behind, but following her. She's like, I'm gonna find my husband. But eventually, she ran out of leads. Nooo! And she couldn't find him.


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[Assistant] Without any information regarding her husband's whereabouts and seemingly no fucking way to find him and he didn't exist anymore, she was granted a divorce. Cause she was like...


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[Assistant] And she didn't involve the police? I guess she was like, there's nothing to really, cause she was just like, I guess Caroline later was just like, yeah, he just left. What? And it's like, no, he didn't.


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[Assistant] But she couldn't find him because he was already on his way.


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[Assistant] To rejoin the sisters in Virginia with Caroline. He fell in love with Auntie. I don't know. I don't know what's happening there.


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[Assistant] But she was convincing him. Now once there, Caroline began encouraging a romance between Fletcher and Ossie, her daughter, they are first cousins.


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[Assistant] So let me just back, back, back it up. Go ahead. She goes after, after interfering in her first nephew's marriage.


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[Assistant] Mary's just letting this all happen. That's the thing, I'm like, Mary, how many sons you got? Goes to her other son, convinces him to come back to the, the Virginia with her. Yeah.


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[Assistant] Then ices out his wife, pretends that Fletcher just up and was sick first of all, too sick to talk, and then just abandoned her and who knows where he went. And instead, she takes Fletcher back.


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[Assistant] That's, so that's happening. So now she's encouraging OC and Fletcher to get married. She's like, first cousins, I've never heard of them.


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[Assistant] People were already suspicious of this trio of wild women, this trio of incest, of wily, wily women. And so when this happened, they had to do it in secret because it was just really gonna, and who knows, I'm like, what was your end game here?


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[Assistant] But when they first arrived at the Montgomery Female College, things at the school, like I said, it seemed stable and well managed. Yea, they were fine. But just as it had been at Sewell Family College, it didn't take long for Caroline's influence to cause even more problems there.


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[Assistant] Not long after they arrived, rumors began spreading around town about like their weird behavior, about them holding midnight rituals in the cemeteries around.


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[Assistant] I mean there were even, there was, there were like rumors about like a quote unquote illegitimate baby that was born at the school that disappeared.


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[Assistant] And they believed like something might have happened. That those are rumors, but like these are the things people were talking about.


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[Assistant] Five pianos, a church organ, rosewood wardrobes, and the school itself. Here's the thing.


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[Assistant] Oh man. It's wild. When the school was abandoned, because it was abandoned at the time, even when he bought it, it became a popular spot for vandals and older boys on marauding expeditions. Now, they tore through the halls and classrooms, took everything out of there, like the whole place had been destroyed.


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[Assistant] In the meantime, the sisters were like, what can we do next? We can woo some older men into marriage. That's true. And get some money. They weren't gaining any traction on that front because, uh. They didn't have the lukes.


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[Assistant] You know what I'm saying? That, I feel like maybe they, they were approaching it the wrong way. They were too. Can I look them up and like see what they look like? Yeah, I think so. And you can, I think a lot of like the rumors that were swirling about them were keeping people's distance away from them. Well and the fact that you know.


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[Assistant] They had creditors growing impatient, not being paid, and they were gonna be taking legal action against them at this point. So the sisters and Fletcher and Ossie began leaving town anytime something like this would happen. Okay.


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[Assistant] So they went off in the direction of New York and they didn't all go at once. They went one after the other so not to arouse suspicions. Alrighty. Now they were trying to put some space, so Fletcher and O.C.


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[Assistant] We're trying to put space between themselves and their aunts and her mother.


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[Assistant] So they settled in East Orange, New Jersey in 1908 and


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[Assistant] By some accounts, they were happy. I don't wanna know about that. OC is so pretty though. I know.


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[Assistant] I don't know what is happening. It's upsetting. Oh my god, this rendition of character.


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[Assistant] So, up until this point, we've had some tragedies. We've had some deaths that have been very sad and like very scary. Correct.


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[Assistant] It's about to get real dark. Okay, let me just like, breathe. So, we got, this is all wacky crazy, but then it gets like, oh.


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[Assistant] And, and, uh, her aunt. Yep. But the child unfortunately died shortly after she was born. That's really sad. I'm sure there was some complications. And things only got worse when Virginia Mary and Caroline showed up at OC and Fletcher's doorstep in early 1909. I would say we don't have anything for you. They were out of money and they said, hi, we're here. Uh, their arrival reminded Fletcher


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[Assistant] Of the last time the sisters had found themselves in financial trouble, I don't know if you can remember that time, uhm, it coincided with the mysterious and very brutal death of his brother John. Yes.


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[Assistant] Uhm, and an insurance payout came after that very conveniently for the sisters. And you know what? It solved all their problems at the time. Sure did. Yeaah. So Fletcher saw this and said, oh hi. I'm getting out of here. Aunties and mom and said,


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[Assistant] Fuck this. And he fled the country to Canada. No he didn't. In March 1909. But did he leave OC?


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[Assistant] Well and what's sad is that OC had not had a chance to tell him that she was pregnant again. Oh god.


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[Assistant] Totally, she's abandoned by her husband at this point. Cousin. Cousin. And left in the care of three people.


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[Assistant] of, or resources to provide any basic level of care for a pregnant woman or really anyone else for that matter because they are wild.


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[Assistant] So after her death later, Dr. Pettit would recall the incredibly strange experience of arriving at the Sneed House that spring. Oh no. Now at the time, only Virginia and Mary were living in the house with Ossie, not her mother Caroline.


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[Assistant] And he said, aside from meager furnishings in Ossie's room, the house was pretty much empty.


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[Assistant] Pettit, uhm, diagnosed her as suffering from general weakness, the result of lack of nutrition and proper care.


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[Assistant] So what he had prescribed for her was fresh air, a restorative diet, and medicine. Okay.


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[Assistant] He was like this will improve her. But upon a follow up visit, he found that the women had made


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[Assistant] Told the doctor they couldn't afford the medicine due to all their money going to the high premiums they were paying in insurance.


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[Assistant] And also living with three women who are jealous of her and have been her whole life and have treated her like shit. That's a thing. And it's for all of these reasons, all those stressors that she's under that she probably, this is why she probably didn't have any idea that after Fletcher left, the sisters had taken out three life insurance policies on OC.


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[Assistant] With Equitable Life Insurance Society, each in the amount of $7,500.


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[Assistant] So, Pettit was on hand to guide Ossie through the process of giving birth to her baby in the home. Uhm, and it was on August 1st, 1909, she gave birth to a baby boy who she named David Pollock Sneed. Okay. Uhm, unfortunately the labor process was very difficult and the baby was born quote unquote sickly.


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[Assistant] And when Pettit told the two aunts that Ossie actually might need a very risky postnatal operation that could prove fatal for her.


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[Assistant] He said he was very surprised and very disgusted with how the women reacted. He said they were fairly jumped at the idea. Cause they wanted her to pass.


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[Assistant] Now despite David, the little baby's poor health at the time of his birth,


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[Assistant] Dr. Pettit and OC were both confident that with the right diet, right care, he would survive and eventually thrive. That's great. Uhm, but that would require the sisters to provide


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[Assistant] And instead, over the objections of Pettit and OC, they quote, fed the baby condensed milk and other foods at variance with those Dr. Pettit specified.


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[Assistant] Weeks later David was still in poor health and was taken to St. Christopher's Hospital by Virginia and Mary.


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[Assistant] Who returned home a short time later to inform OC that the baby had died.


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[Assistant] That was a lie. And they had simply left David at St. Christopher's.


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[Assistant] Yeah, and then told her she did died. Like wow. Now in the wake of what she believed was another child's death. Yeah. She's gonna lose it. She declined.


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[Assistant] Because she managed to get through it. The sisters refused to let him inside the house, but they did allow periodic visits from a nurse.


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[Assistant] Cause from the moment he had been summoned to treat her in the first place, he was very uncomfortable with those three women. And he said they made him feel very unwelcome. Each visit he went to that house he was more and more unwelcome, more unnerved. And he said it wasn't just like


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[Assistant] Bad attitudes and like weird behavior which they had that troubled him, but he said the fact that the women were intentionally treating OC poorly.


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[Assistant] And seemed to care very little whether she lived or died.


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[Assistant] And on one particular visit, Pettit recalled Virginia showing him OC's will.


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[Assistant] That's strange. And in it, OC had left the majority of her stuff to her grandmother.


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[Assistant] But more importantly, he was like, this is weird and suspicious that you're showing me this. Like, why do you have her, Will? What are you doing? I don't get it.


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[Assistant] So he reported the treatment of OC and this whole thing to the police. Good. And later he recalled that officers, quote, made a routine inquiry and it led nowhere.


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[Assistant] And this is also, the police failed on an epic level here.


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[Assistant] It was his suspicions that led the doctor to take extreme measures upon his last visit to the house.


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[Assistant] So after knocking and ringing the bell several times and not getting an answer, Dr. Pettit became concerned. Yea, of course. And he went into the house through an open front window. I love this man. I love this doctor. This man's for the win. So he reached the girl's bedroom and he said he was shocked to find her quote nearly starved with no food in the house.


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[Assistant] Despite her serious condition, he said that Osi was so happy to see him and said she wanted to talk to him about something important. But before she could say anything, one of the sisters came in the room and forced Pettit out of the room.


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[Assistant] They said they were willing to placate him by being like, fine, we'll have food delivered to the house for her. Wow.


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[Assistant] Brooklyn police checked on the women, found no evidence of anyone having committed a crime. So they said there's nothing we can do.


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[Assistant] What? Yeah. Failures. Huge failures. Shame. Truly. Like they should be ashamed of themselves.


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[Assistant] By fall of 1909, the sisters found themselves, again, needing money. Their regular position in life.


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[Assistant] With creditors beginning to call on them regularly. And in late October, the sisters were no longer able to hold these creditors off.


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[Assistant] So they resorted to their typical strategy, you know, picking up and moving before the creditors could find them and get what they needed.


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[Assistant] When the doctor, uh, learned that the Brooklyn police had been unable to do anything, Dr. Pettit returned to the home again himself to check on OC, because he was going to go in there and he was like, I don't know what I was going to do, but I was going back myself because no one was doing anything. He found it completely abandoned.


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[Assistant] Now on November 29th, 1909, only the next month.


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[Assistant] Uh, police in East Orange, New Jersey received a call from quote, an elderly woman with a southern accent explaining that an accident had occurred at 89 North 14th Street and they needed a coroner. Huh.


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[Assistant] The assisting county physician, Dr. Herbert Simmons, went three blocks to the address and he was greeted at the door by Virginia, who was dressed in the typical black attire with the black veil.


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[Assistant] And she led him through the house and Simmons noted that the building seemed to have no heat or furniture.


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[Assistant] Where he sees the nude emaciated body of OC laying beneath just a few inches of water.


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[Assistant] Now Simmons, now this is the county physician Simmons, Dr. Simmons.


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[Assistant] He scanned the scene for any information that might be useful and found a pile of clothing with what appeared to be a very neatly written suicide note attached to it.


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[Assistant] No, not that we know of. Virginia told the man that she shared the house on 14th street with her niece, giving the impression that it was just Virginia and OC. Yeah. Uh, and that they had recently moved in. Now, as an agent of the coroner's office, Dr. Simmons had seen a lot of dead bodies and he had seen a lot of scenes and he said,


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[Assistant] Something's not right here. Well, the fact that she's emaciated is one thing. For one thing, Ocie had been dead in the bathroom, in the only bathroom in this place, for at least 24 hours.


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[Assistant] So immediately that's sus. Virginia's saying she just discovered the body. She just had an accident. That's the only bathroom.


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[Assistant] And there was also the house itself. She's saying that they moved in weeks earlier, but the house was virtually empty. It appeared like no one had been living there for years.


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[Assistant] So, he was very suspicious of Virginia and he was like, something's up here. So Simmons stopped at the nearest phone he could find and placed a call to Sergeant William O'Neill of the East Orange Police and explained everything that he found, all his thoughts, and noted all his suspicions to them.


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[Assistant] Now, knowing that Simmons was definitely not the type of man to jump to conclusions. He was a trustworthy guy. He'd been to a lot of these scenes. He wouldn't be bringing them out if he didn't need to. Sergeant O'Neill.


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[Assistant] Took this very seriously and immediately went to the house. Good.


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[Assistant] Now Sergeant O'Neill arrived at the house around 6pm and Virginia opened the door.


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[Assistant] Now after reading the note, O'Neill asked Virginia to show him the rest of the house, starting with the attic.


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[Assistant] He was struck by how empty this house felt. And he said, not just empty in the sense, he's like, it was empty. There was nothing in there. But he was like, it felt empty. Like there was a, there was a palpable feeling to this house.


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[Assistant] And in fact, he said the only sign that anyone actually lived there was found in what he assumed to be OC's former bedroom.


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[Assistant] Now Virginia followed O'Neill quietly from room to room.


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[Assistant] Now there were a few pieces of broken furniture, what maybe could have been personal items scattered about, but it looked more like it was like long ago somebody had lived there.


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[Assistant] When they'd finished going through the whole thing, O'Neill began to question Virginia about why they'd moved to East Orange.


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[Assistant] And, you know, why she'd only noticed her niece was dead a few hours earlier when it's the only bathroom in the fucking house. So the woman was short with the sergeant.


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[Assistant] Hey, sorry, I have a dead body here. Can you go ahead and grab that?


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[Assistant] And thought she was just gonna be done with the whole thing after that. Which she definitely did. She must have been pretty surprised when Sergeant O'Neill explained that she was gonna have to come with him to the station to answer some more questions. Finally!


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[Assistant] Virginia went, she grabbed a small bag, some belongings and went out of the house.


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[Assistant] Now at the East Orange Police Department, she went through a whole interview and this time she was interviewed by Police Chief James Bell.


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[Assistant] Now to Belle, the entire s- this was all fucked. This was all suspicious. Well, she's sitting there in her fucking black veil. He said that Virginia seemed to have an answer for everything.


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[Assistant] She had a quick answer for everything, but it still didn't explain what happened in the house. She was, cause he was like, she herself was very poised, very polished, but O'Neill had described them living in squalor. It just didn't match up.


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[Assistant] And there was also the manner of the whole thing. Like if they're claiming this is suicide, how could Ocie have managed to hold herself underwater long enough to drown herself? Especially in such a frail and fragile state.


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[Assistant] And again, your body is going to want to take yourself and sit up. Yeaah. And she's not strong enough to keep herself underwater.


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[Assistant] So these are all unanswered questions and they're nagging him. So Belle booked Virginia as a material witness that evening and she was taken to Essex County Jail. Ruh-roh.


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[Assistant] Now the following day, November 30th, an autopsy was performed on OC and it confirmed that the cause of death was drowning, but it also raised a few more questions. The medical examiner noted that OC was emaciated to the last degree.


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[Assistant] Shakeyness to it. There's no way. No, while the coroner examined the body, investigators with the East Orange Police started tracing the two women's movements from the moment they arrived in the city a few weeks earlier.


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[Assistant] They managed to track down a cab driver who'd taken them from the train station to the house.


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[Assistant] But also took Virginia to see a local doctor by the name of Charles Teeter.


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[Assistant] When they interviewed Dr. Teeter, he said Virginia had shown up at his house at a late hour on the evening of November 24th.


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[Assistant] Now, although he initially protested, it was clear she wasn't going to take no for an answer, so he agreed to go with her. Now, at the house, the doctor examined Osi and noted that she was incredibly frail and appeared to have bronchitis. But otherwise, he was like, okay, that's really all I have to say about her.


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[Assistant] To Bell and O'Neill, the request for the health certificate for OC only made Virginia seem more suspicious. And what is that? It could be for like insurance reasons.


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[Assistant] Now, in just a few days, their investigation had turned up several people who interacted with Virginia in and around East Orange, and always in the context of her asking questions about medical treatment and local doctors, which seemed in keeping with the situation at the house.


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[Assistant] But when they checked the registers of local hotels in New York City, they were surprised to find that Virginia was staying in several of the city's fanciest hotels in recent months. It had been dining at high-end restaurants. So there's like, wait a second. This woman.


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[Assistant] Shut up, cold, broken house in New Jersey. And how is she even living in these expensive hotels with no money? Because she was using the insurance money that she got before.


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[Assistant] I'm sure she's scamming some shit. There's tons of fraud charges that come up. Wow. Eventually, Bell and O'Neill's search led them to a house in Brooklyn that the neighbors had taken to calling the House of Mystery.


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[Assistant] Stop it! And the yard was so overgrown that nobody could see inside.


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[Assistant] Now once the investigators had located the janitor responsible for managing the home, because they used to have like certain, you know, like a super almost. Yea, yea. They got inside of it and they found that this place was as bleak and empty as the one in East Orange.


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[Assistant] And they were about to leave, but then they were approached by a reporter from the New York world who'd been put on the story by one of his New Jersey peers was like, heard all about this. Cause you knew this was going to get reported on. The reporter is like, wait a second, why are you guys leaving? Don't you notice those small spots of like what looks like blood on the floor by the door?


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[Assistant] I love that the reporter was like, hey guys, hey investigators, did you notice that? So they follow the faint trail through the hall and up the stairs into one of the bedrooms, but it just led nowhere.


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[Assistant] Meanwhile, the reporter on the first floor opened the oven in the kitchen and discovered a massive yellow hair.


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[Assistant] Wrapped up in its center were two irregularly shaped bones. One resembled a femur and the other resembled a skull. And they were small. What?


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[Assistant] You could see, they said you could see nose bones and the socket of an eye. Like, and like, this is like a child.


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[Assistant] Now- What the fuck is going on? So they asked the janitor, they're like, what the fuck has been going on in this? Like, what's going on?


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[Assistant] And the janitor explained that OC and her husband had moved into that house about a year and a half earlier and then were joined, remember, by the two older women always dressed in black.


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[Assistant] And a few months later, a third woman who was also dressed in black came to live with them, Caroline. Caroline!


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[Assistant] The janitor didn't know much else, but he did mention that OC's husband eventually left and the women were constantly behind on the rent.


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[Assistant] When Fletcher left, when they showed up, was like, no, I'm not dying. He left for Canada.


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[Assistant] They moved into that house and turned it into whatever fucking cult bullshit. While OC's living there, they turned it into that. Okay. And then they ripped OC out of the house, made her live in that abandoned place while they kept living in that house. Oh, so they didn't live in the house with OC in... They were just keeping her in a house by herself, ailing.


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[Assistant] And sick and unable to move and starving her. And that, that was the whole time that she was pregnant. Yep. And they said they, and reports had said they had been starving Osie essentially since she was born.


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[Assistant] Like that girl had never been adequately taken care of.


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[Assistant] And so the janitor says when OC's husband eventually left, the women were always behind on the rent. And then they would suddenly come into a large sum of money right before they were about to be evicted.


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[Assistant] So they were doing some more shit. Yeah they were, and who the fuck is the skull in the oven? Well.


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[Assistant] The house in Brooklyn and the information given by the janitor eventually led them to Dr. Pettit.


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[Assistant] Impedit explained that he had been on hand when OC gave birth to her second child, and from that point forward, he said, I just couldn't stop thinking about her. I was so worried for her safety.


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[Assistant] My concerns grew and grew, and he said, at no time was I able to find out from Mrs. Sneed anything about herself, meaning Ocie. He had never found anything about Ocie out from herself. Well, because they were always lingering. He said, every time I asked a question, one of the older women was always ready to give up an answer. Mrs. Sneed seemed afraid to talk.


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[Assistant] And he said he tried to follow up several times until one day he arrived at the house in Brooklyn and it was abandoned, which he was presumably when they moved OC to East Orange.


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[Assistant] Now Dr. Pettit's nurse, Elizabeth Moog.


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[Assistant] But she said it was so difficult to take care of her because the sisters were constantly hovering over her.


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[Assistant] She said whenever I went, wherever I went, one of them kept tagging after me. I was not alone with Mrs. Sneed for a single moment. Mrs. Sneed seemed afraid of someone or something.


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[Assistant] Now Bell and O'Neill explained that what they'd found at the house in Brooklyn and were like, what the fuck is, do you have any idea what that could be? And asked, you know, for Pettit to come with him to look at it. Pettit agreed and it didn't take long before, you know, they figured out what was happening, what happened there.


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[Assistant] Not what happened there, but what that was. Now according to Dr. Pettit, the stains in the hall, he said he didn't think they were blood. Okay. He thought they were, uh, tobacco juice. He said probably left by a careless worker. Oh, okay. He's like, that's why there's no like end with a crime scene. Yeah, yeah, yeah.


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[Assistant] The bones in the oven were bizarre, but he said he didn't believe they were human.


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[Assistant] He thought they were animal bones. But he said, still don't know why they're in the oven. And there's also like a mass of hair that he was like, I don't know what that is. Did he think it was human hair or he wasn't sure? He couldn't tell. He was like, I don't know.


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[Assistant] But he's like, I think some of these are animals, so I'm assuming they're animal bones.


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[Assistant] But, so Dr. Pettit tried to clear up some mysteries and did a couple, but...


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[Assistant] Uh, it didn't stop the New York world, uh, the New York world news.


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[Assistant] Uh, publishing a ton of sensational stories about this.


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[Assistant] They did mention the occult overtones of the whole thing.


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[Assistant] And thanks to the information provided by neighbors in Brooklyn, and especially that of Dr. Pettit and his nurse, a picture was beginning to emerge for the detectives. It was clear that three women had been abusing O.C. and by all accounts she seemed terrified of them. But what they couldn't kind of figure out was why they had done this. Right.


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[Assistant] Like, they were like, this is, this is like a long process and it didn't take them long to figure out a motive.


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[Assistant] During an interview with William Fee, a Brooklyn attorney, it was revealed that the lawyer had been recommended to Virginia by someone she'd met at church.


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[Assistant] And she'd summoned him to the house just a few months before OC's death.


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[Assistant] Now according to Fee, Virginia had wanted him to help OC write a new will. This was before OC died.


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[Assistant] Virginia produced the Old Will completed by OC just a few months earlier.


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[Assistant] And explain they wanted to write a new one because the previous version didn't make any provisions for Osi's baby.


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[Assistant] Now Ossie's only like, I think she was only 20... I wanna say she was between 23 and 26.


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[Assistant] Well, Phi thought that the explanation was like, whatever. He's like, okay, that, sure.


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[Assistant] But you did think it was strange that the details of the new will were all being dictated by Virginia. Right. Not OC.


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[Assistant] Yeaah. Now according to Fee, on that day, Virginia was in the company of Caroline, OC's mother.


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[Assistant] The girl appeared to be very on the verge of death at the time.


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[Assistant] And Fi was really moved by the sad story that the sisters were spinning to him.


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[Assistant] But, and Belle hoped that the woman would crack when presented with the evidence, but...


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[Assistant] He had underestimated how, how much she would, uh, he had underestimated her will.


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[Assistant] He was just about to give up when O'Neill entered his office and presented him with documented evidence and witness testimony confirming medical neglect and all


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[Assistant] Evidence of maltreatment, uh, maltreatment and malnourishment of OC. Yeaah.


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[Assistant] So all the evidence was there. He didn't need the confession. And he said,


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[Assistant] Bell said, at first I believe Mrs. Need attempted to take a bath, was discovered in the tub by her murderer and held underwater until drowned. Makes sense. But after careful examination of the evidence, which directly contradicted Virginia's story, he believed O.C. had never intended to take a bath.


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[Assistant] Based on the information collected at this point, Bell made the decision to charge Virginia with the murder of Ocie Sneed. Yea, rightfully so it sounds. So the news of Virginia's arrest


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[Assistant] Made readers go crazy all over the East Coast. They'd been following all the sensational stories coming out of here.


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[Assistant] And honestly, the news of her behavior and the way she dressed only made it even more macabre. Of course. Uhm, and law enforcement were talking also about how strange and uncooperative Virginia was being.


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[Assistant] Police Commissioner Sharpe said in a statement to the press, I tried to question her but she bluntly told me that she saw no reason why she should answer my questions.


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[Assistant] And in his assessment of Virginia, Sharp described her as cool, calm, and resourceful and cunning.


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[Assistant] Get back at the negative portrayals of Virginia. Mary Snead.


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[Assistant] The other idiot here granted an interview with several reporters saying family pride should be laid aside and the public should learn the truth about the sisters in black.


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[Assistant] Mary said, in the hope of lightening, lightening the burden of an innocent woman, speaking of Virginia, I will tell all I know.


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[Assistant] But hardly she told said nothing. She told nothing. In fact, she flat out refused to address any questions regarding the family's financial history.


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[Assistant] And the fact that Virginia had not only taken three life insurance policies out on OC just before her death, but had also had her will changed. She wouldn't talk about any of that.


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[Assistant] As for Ocie's death, Mary insisted that it was suicide motivated by profound loss and, you know, her declining health. I don't know about that. Now as news of the story spread, people in New York, New Jersey, Virginia, and Tennessee came forward to tell their tales of the sisters.


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[Assistant] A former student at the Nashville Female School where Mary was once employed.


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[Assistant] Described her as being quote, regarded by all pupils as being queer. Now, queer meaning strange back then.


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[Assistant] Uhm, and in Christianburg, Virginia, one resident described the sisters as quote, crazy, eccentric, and exceedingly smart.


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[Assistant] Now, reporters followed every lead in the story, and they began reporting on all the mysterious aspects of the women's lives, including all the things we had talked about before, the weird.


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[Assistant] There was the tragic death of Caroline's first child after falling down a flight of stairs. The unexpected early death of Robert Martin, her husband.


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[Assistant] All of these things were followed by large insurance payouts that were received just in the nick of time to avoid financial ruin. Right.


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[Assistant] So in an effort to combat the growing amount of strange stories in the press, Virginia's lawyer Franklin Fort presented the press with two unmailed letters that Virginia supposedly had written to family members. In each letter, Virginia is expressing her deepest sympathies for the recent losses.


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[Assistant] There were statements like, what a flood tide of loving sympathy slows to you this beautiful Sabbath afternoon.


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[Assistant] And I would love to hold you dear head on my lap and run my fingers through your hair and so charm away brain worry.


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[Assistant] Totally. Now despite, you know, what seemed like a rock solid way to influence the press, the public perception of Virginia, for it simply couldn't hold back the constant sensational news coverage because, uh,


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[Assistant] She was weird. Wild. Uh, moreover, the more the press learned about the family through their investigations and the police, the more it began to look as though Virginia was not the only one involved in all this.


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[Assistant] So as the new year rolls over, the prosecutor's office have begun to put together a theory as to the events leading up to and resulting in Osista.


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[Assistant] They believe that all four women had been living in the house in Brooklyn when they concocted a scheme to kill OC and collect on the insurance money.


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[Assistant] Oh, they rented that house in East Orange.


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[Assistant] Brought OC there and left her there, let her starve there for a while, and planned her entire murder.


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[Assistant] And then told the police, we are living here together, even though they're not.


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[Assistant] Now by dividing up the tasks, because one of them hired the house, one of them brought her there, one of them planned the murder.


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[Assistant] I don't know why they would have gone through all the lengths when they could, like to bring her to East Orange when they could have just committed this crime in New York. Yeah.


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[Assistant] Maybe, you know, but it's like even then it's like that would have been great for them.


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[Assistant] Oh yeah, actually, yeah. You know, like that either way, so it's like, it just doesn't make it, like, why wouldn't you just like, do it? Yeah.


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[Assistant] Like, why'd you bring her somewhere else, and like, evolve another place, and like, even now?


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[Assistant] Oh, you meant going from Brooklyn to East Orange. Sorry, I was thinking the other way around. No, that's okay. You are correct, like that is also a good point, but even investigators now, they're like, I still don't get why they didn't just like...


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[Assistant] Cause you didn't really need anything to happen. You had already done the starvation and the...


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[Assistant] At this point it's like, it looks like what they did was they just dragged her to a bathtub and drowned her. They could have done that.


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[Assistant] But that's what I mean, they could have just drowned her in the house that they already had. Yeah. Like it doesn't make sense.


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[Assistant] But what's also unknown to investigators at this point was the whereabouts of, like you were asking, Caroline. Yea, like where is she? They believe she was obviously an active participant in her own daughter's death. Now despite her absence, or perhaps because of it, the press was able to paint a picture of Caroline as a kind of ringleader among the sisters.


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[Assistant] Because again, they were quote unquote normal before. Until her arrival.


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[Assistant] According to Luann Reif, the newspapers described Caroline as an intelligent and highly emotional woman, perhaps with mental illness, who manipulated her family.


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[Assistant] She was a hoarder, she clung onto everything she owned rather than sell them even when she was financially desperate.


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[Assistant] And most importantly, she lacked any real human connection. Even with the closest members of her family. Her husband, her son, and her daughter. She had no connection to them. It sounds like she has more of a connection to her sisters. Yeaah. And this was a strange little thing.


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[Assistant] By mid December, Caroline had been located in New York City and she was registered at a hotel as Mrs. Maybrick.


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[Assistant] Mrs. Maybrick. Now, remember the case of Florence Maybrick? Yea. James Maybrick? Yea. Who some people believe to be Jack the Ripper? He's not. Get this.


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[Assistant] Florence Maybrick's daughter was named Caroline.


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[Assistant] Wait, what? So Caroline or bad Caroline?


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[Assistant] Was married to James Maybrick and was accused of poisoning him.


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[Assistant] Her daughter's name was Caroline.


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[Assistant] I don't know what the connection is there, but Mrs. Maybrick is a strange name to pick. Yeah.


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[Assistant] And the fact that the Caroline is going under Mrs. Maybrick and the real Mrs. Maybrick has a daughter named Caroline is a little strange.


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[Assistant] People thought he was Jack the Ripper. Right. What the fuck?


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[Assistant] And it was like a big deal because they thought that Florence had murdered him.


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[Assistant] It's just so weird. I was like, what is this? And I tried to find any other kind of connections there, but I was like, I couldn't find.


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[Assistant] And though it's weird too is, I think it was a big deal, the Florence Maverick stuff, because Florence Maverick was from, uh, Alabama.


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[Assistant] Oh, and therefore she's from the south. And it's like, so that was definitely reported over here because it was like a, an American woman, right? Um, but yeah, like that's.


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[Assistant] I don't know. What? It's very strange. Do you think she just thought it was like... Funny? Yeaah. Or like, uh, like she just did it to be like...


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[Assistant] I don't know. Cause they love that spooky persona they've got there. Maybe it was just like- Their black dress with the black veil. Right. So maybe it's just part of the whole like-


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[Assistant] Well, when I saw Mrs. Maybrick, I was like, Mrs. Maybrick? And I was like, oh, Florence Maybrick, James Maybrick. And I started thinking about it and then I was like, huh. And I was like, wait.


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[Assistant] And then I was like, holy shit, her daughter's name was Caroline.


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[Assistant] That's too, I feel like that's too weird to be a coincidence. Right?


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[Assistant] She ended up living like, you know, like a quaint life, a pretty quiet life. Interesting.


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[Assistant] Now Caroline was under surveillance by New Jersey authorities until they had justification to arrest her. We love a surveillance moment.


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[Assistant] That evidence finally came in the form of several letters written by Caroline that Chief Bell believed bore a remarkable resemblance to the handwriting in OC's suicide note. She wrote her own child's fake suicide note.


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[Assistant] Finally, by the end of December, Mary Snead and Caroline were taken into custody by New York authorities and held for the murder of Osi. Wow. On December 22nd, a grand jury indicted all three women for first degree murder.


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[Assistant] Uhm, at this time prosecutor Wilbur Mott began drawing up the papers to have Mary and Caroline extradited to New Jersey to stand trial.


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[Assistant] The most compelling piece of evidence presented to the grand jury according to the press was more than 50.


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[Assistant] Quote unquote suicide notes discovered in Caroline Martin's New York hotel room.


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[Assistant] While all three women continued to be held in prison pending trial, investigators in East Orange kept turning up evidence in the case that strongly supported the theory that Osi's death was a murder.


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[Assistant] In addition to the insurance policies taken out on her life and other evidence of conspiracy when


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[Assistant] Uh, when he first searched the house, Sergeant O'Neill had found a glass by the bathtub that contained a small amount of liquid.


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[Assistant] When the autopsy was conducted, a small amount of that same liquid was discovered in OC's stomach. Now it took a long time for the analysis to be completed, but in mid-January the results came back and found that that liquid was morphine.


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[Assistant] The discovery of the morphine answered the nagging question of how OC had managed to drown in such a shallow amount of water.


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[Assistant] Now with this new evidence, the prosecutor announced their belief that the women had been administering the morphine for several days. And that when she was put in the bathtub, OC was unconscious of what was occurring, which I guess is the only blessing here. She didn't know what was happening.


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[Assistant] They built their case against the three sisters and the prosecutor announced the trial would begin April 1910. But things started to fall apart.


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[Assistant] Then in the spring, it became clear to authorities that Virginia's health had started to take a turn for the worse. And she's in custody, right? They discovered she was starving herself.


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[Assistant] She was frequently unconscious, required oxygen, and a few days later on August 12th, she had died from starvation. She had starved herself to death in custody. That is wild, because that takes a long time.


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[Assistant] Things became even more complicated a month later in late September when Franklin Fort produced a document signed by two psychiatrists that declared Caroline Martin insane.


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[Assistant] On Caroline's sanity, conflicted with the schedule for the acting judge, so the case was transferred to another judge.


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[Assistant] Judge J10X and scheduled for early August.


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[Assistant] When it finally went underway, Caroline's behavior, whether real or an act to bolster this claim, as people do believe it was,


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[Assistant] Did little to contradict the ways in which she'd been portrayed in the press. At one point, while a former representative from Ward Law College was testifying, uhm, about how Caroline had negatively affected the school and its finances, Caroline jumped out of her seat and shouted, I never said a thing he is telling. And then was ordered to sit down by the courtroom.


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[Assistant] Caroline would continue to have outbursts over and over. She would challenge any and all testimony given.


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[Assistant] And when Caroline's brother, Reverend Albert Wardlaw was called to the stand, he testified that Caroline had always been controlling, manipulative, and strange. We heard that. He said, she directed both my school and daily life in New York.


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[Assistant] Uh, he said of his earlier experience with his sister that, uhm, he said that he told the court that around 1890 or 1891, he noticed a marked change in his sister's behavior.


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[Assistant] She was irrational, bizarre, and very quick to anger.


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[Assistant] And at one point she said to him that she was quote, equal to her creator and called herself Salvatore.


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[Assistant] Albert Wardlaw's testimony was interrupted again by Caroline outbursting and the judge had to call a recess. Now, throughout the trial,


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[Assistant] Caroline was seen to lift her veil a lot because she was wearing her veil.


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[Assistant] And basically she would like lift her veil subtly during one of her outbursts to kind of evaluate the judge's reaction.


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[Assistant] Gauging how far she could carry it or to act out. Like,


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[Assistant] This is very clear that she's doing it on purpose. Like she would look at him and be like, and like see how far she could take it.


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[Assistant] And after multiple outbursts in the courtroom, the sanity hearing finally concluded in late November, and the judge concluded Mrs. Martin is sane.


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[Assistant] That's the thing, like, if you can sit there and jump up in an outburst to everything. And be like looking to see how far you can take it. Then hello. So.


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[Assistant] Without a formal declaration of insanity to shield her, Caroline's lawyers encouraged her to plead guilty to a lesser charge. Smart. And on November 9, 1911, she pleaded no contest to a charge of manslaughter.


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[Assistant] But, when the plea agreement for manslaughter was read in court, she interrupted the prosecutor and said, involuntary manslaughter, please sir.


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[Assistant] So the exchange brought on another aggressive outburst from Caroline, but the judge had had fucking enough of this and was like, we're going to get delayed again. So he literally like yelled at Caroline, this is not the time for you to talk. And she just slinked back in her chair. Oh man.


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[Assistant] Now Caroline Martin was sentenced to seven years.


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[Assistant] Officials noted that Caroline was doing very poorly, and her mental health had declined considerably. So in May 1912, she was declared insane.


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[Assistant] And transferred to the New Jersey State Hospital for the Insane to finish out her sentence. On June 10th, 1913, only in the next year,


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[Assistant] Caroline Martin died from heart disease at the age of 67. Wow. Now.


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[Assistant] Because the law didn't allow for co-conspirators to manslaughter, the joint indictment of Caroline and Mary had to be severed.


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[Assistant] As a result, the prosecutor had to drop the accessory charge against Mary Snead, and she was free to go. She just walked.


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[Assistant] With her husband and one of her sons dead and Fletcher living in Canada.


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[Assistant] Mary's only option was to move to Colorado where she went to live with a third son that no one knew about.


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[Assistant] And now, according to Mary, quote, Miss Virginia Wardlaw, Virginia.


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[Assistant] At the time she was known to be, quote, a church worker living in Oakland, California.


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[Assistant] Holy shit, that's one of the strangest- The fact that OC was wrapped up in this- I know, cause it sounds like she was just like a sweet girl. Yeah, and she just wanted like a happy normal.


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[Assistant] And also, your first cousin, get her out of there. Like, Jesus, if you're worried about these women and what they did to your brother, you should be worried about what's gonna happen to your family member. Exactly. You know?


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[Assistant] I'm not going to name my kid Fletcher. Sorry to all the Fletchers out there. Sorry to all the Fletchers. It's a cool name. It is a cool name. I'm not going to lie, but I don't know something about it. Fletch.


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[Assistant] Wow! So that is the story of... Holy bananas! The quote-unquote Black Sisters, because that's what they were called, and the murder of Ocie Sneed.


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[Assistant] How did I miss this? I was like, I've never came across this. That's wild. Crazy. You just had a driver to fucking- Yeah.


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[Assistant] And I'm Rachel. And this is a special episode of Morbid.


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[Assistant] Guys, we have Rachel Stavis on the show today. Rachel is a, this is a long list, a world-renowned exorcist. She has written multiple books, created the backstory for Lara Croft Tomb Raider, and really, you're kind of just like an all-around badass, so welcome.


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[Assistant] So if you guys want, we can kind of dive right into everything. We have a ton of questions for you, Rachel, so hopefully that is okay.


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[Assistant] Awesome. Alright, amazing. Our first question for you is can you basically just give us like kind of an overview about what being an exorcist means to you?


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[Assistant] I love it. How did you discover that this like, was your unique talent that you had?


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[Assistant] That's the best way to go about things though, like word of mouth travels so quickly, and then I'm sure you have just people beating down your door at this point.


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[Assistant] Oh, absolutely. Did you feel lighter once you kind of started leaning into it after suppressing for so long? Honestly, yes. Yeah, I could imagine.


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[Assistant] Oh my god. That's crazy. So you can even see things attached to people in TV shows and movies. Yep. And photos. Wow. Everything. Is that really distracting?


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[Assistant] Yeah, the upstairs harbors a lot more, and so does the basement. Yeah, the basement has some weird energy down there.


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[Assistant] Yup. People like travel from all over just to spend the night, so. Makes sense.


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[Assistant] But somehow that felt less threatening. Yeah, weirdly enough.


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[Assistant] So are there specific signs to look out for that some specific entity is attached to you?


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[Assistant] Do you have any specific tips for people to avoid having an entity attach itself other than telling it to fuck off?


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[Assistant] Of course. It's weird, I told Elena, and maybe you can explain this to me.


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[Assistant] Really had an experience like this, but I woke up in the middle of the night, a week ago maybe, and I just said to myself,


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[Assistant] Elena needs to do reiki on her stomach, and I should tell her that. And then it was like, I was barely conscious. It was just like, I woke up, had that thought, fell right back to sleep. And so I told her the next day.


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[Assistant] So now that we know a little bit more about all the entities themselves, what does a typical day for you, I mean, cause this is your whole last job, what does a typical day for you look like dealing with all of these different things?


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[Assistant] That's intense. So you've been doing this for a while and you've kind of already touched upon a couple.


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[Assistant] Are there any particularly, or can you point to one particularly memorable or challenging experience that you've had in your whole journey?


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[Assistant] Do you have a process afterwards when you've finished this kind of work to, I don't know, cleanse yourself somehow?


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[Assistant] That makes sense, yeaah. Absolutely. Wow. Yeaah. This is fascinating.


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[Assistant] But it will also cut off and there's no way to possibly make that happen.


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[Assistant] So that's interesting because Mikey, our assistant, has cleansed this space so many times, and he invites our ancestors in here.


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[Assistant] Yeah, Apollo Santo usually. And that's what I use at my house. Cause I know Sage has like specific rules and I never want to fuck it up.


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[Assistant] Tell me if I'm wrong, I know you will. Uh, I think that's supposed to be a bad omen. And then I looked it up and it was like, in some places, it's a good omen. So I think it's just whatever the fuck you feel.


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[Assistant] Stop it. Stop it. There is nothing romantic about that.


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[Assistant] Like, you're kind of doing a Goosebumps Choose Your Own Adventure here kind of thing. I'm not reading.


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[Assistant] I wonder if it's because of their build.


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[Assistant] He said 40 people probably out of those 4,000 knew what they were doing. And that was like a probably. Yes. Like, yeah. Wow.


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[Assistant] Stop inexperienced people from going into those caves, but allow experienced people.


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[Assistant] How is that even possible? I have no idea. Like I don't underst- I can't even...


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[Assistant] Which I'm glad she said that because give him like a little something to hold onto. It's just so, so.


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[Assistant] You must be terrified as a rescuer going in there because what if you take one long turn? It's literally a split second decision of which way to go.


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[Assistant] Not even like the worst person on the planet should die like that, and this guy like had a one year old.


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[Assistant] And just the fact that like somebody was on their way down there so he could talk to his wife for a minute. Talk to his wife?


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[Assistant] I'm sure that's probably the only fucking person on planet Earth.


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[Assistant] To put yourself in the shoes of John being stuck there for...


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[Assistant] Hours and hours and hours and trying your best to get out of there, the rescuers, his


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[Assistant] Ugh, that was a really, really sad one.


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[Assistant] And I hope that anybody that goes spelunking is super, super, super, super careful and stays as safe as they possibly can.


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[Assistant] Remember, we thought that would be fun to do for spooky season. Some people liked it, some people didn't. Some people did not. Kind of a toss up. We tried something out.


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[Assistant] I don't know how our schedule works ever, to be honest. Here's my transparent moment. I never know when an episode is coming out.


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[Assistant] Uh, cause when she described the entities, I was like, I don't want that.


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[Assistant] We've had a good few weeks. We got to see our girlies Corinne and Sabrina. Two girls, one ghost. We got to go to their show and see their lovely, beautiful


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[Assistant] But I met some listeners there. Cool. And it was a fucking blast. I highly recommend anybody go to a murder mystery themed party.


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[Assistant] Or dinner. It is so much fun. Everything was over the top.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] John got so into it. He was literally walking up to people and being like, so I heard that, uh, everyone thinks you're a shady bitch. Uh, what's going on? Like it was amazing. So good. Uh, but yeah, that was fun. Got me into the spooky spirit and.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, I hope you guys are all spookified and feeling in the season. Yeah. And I hope you're eating a pumpkin pie.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, she just wanted to do it and then- Do it quietly. Yeah, just go back to her life and do it. I love that. Yeah.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That whole like idea confuses some people. Oh it does. Like some people cannot understand that.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, and like they, and it's like if you're not looking for a big pat on the back about it, then it-


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I mean even like, cause you know kids do respond to boundaries. They do like boundaries. Absolutely. They crave them. Whether they know it or not consciously.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] They respond to boundaries and it helps them to be better and more contained and more.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] In control of their own emotions and feelings and actions, but


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It's not easy. No. It's not easy to give like, I, I, people,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And that's in a two-parent household. I was going to say, and I have the backup of John, and it's like, but it's not easy just, cause all you want to do is just make your kids happy and just like.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You just want to see him happy, so when you have to, you know, put in a boundary or put in a big no, it's not easy.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And there's people who don't find it easy and can't understand the other side, so I think it's just one of those things. Exactly.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Violence isn't the answer. Never. Don't go around slapping people. Don't go around hitting people. It's never, you know, good is never coming from it. Trust me, there's many people in my life as an adult that I've wanted to whack across the face. Oh, a hundred percent. There's a few that I would love to right this second. Yep, same. But don't do it. It doesn't come, nothing comes good from it.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But do I understand the feeling behind it? Yeah. Yeah, just don't act on it. Yeah, don't talk, don't talk about my mom. And don't act like my mom just cause she's a single mother.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And when they're going for that kind of very detailed and ridiculous lie, it's like, oh no, it's gotten real bad. Yeah, you're grasping for straws.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Like it's like renovations are expensive. Anytime you're decorating any room in your


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I don't know. Like getting so angry at someone to like take a hit out on them is like wild on every level, but it's also, but maintaining that level of rage for that long to go through so many steps of a process is always very fascinating to me.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Because I just don't have time for it. No, I'm here for a good time, not a long time. I don't have time for that kind of rage. Like I get mad, but it goes away pretty quick. Well it has to. I don't, it just, I can't maintain it.