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[Assistant] Wow, there's a couple stars right next to it. I wonder if that's the planet Jupiter with the Galilean moons around it. And what, 13, 14 years old? This homemade, not very good telescope.


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[Assistant] I made a telescope! And she says, oh, that's interesting, uh, put your homework over here and sit down through your own. I say, no, no, no, you don't understand, I made a telescope, I was looking at the sky last night, I was looking at things! And she says, very nice, very nice, put your homework here and sit down, class is about to begin.


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[Assistant] I think I saw the planet Jupiter and had stars next to it.


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[Assistant] Very nice, young Clifford. Please hand in your homework and sit down over in row number three in your chair. Now. I walked over to sit down.


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[Assistant] Probably is the way life is. And I go home, mention it to my mom, and my mom says, that doesn't sound right.


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[Assistant] Let's see if we can find somebody who might know something more about astronomy. She sure didn't.


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[Assistant] The whole idea of science in my neighborhood was true.


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[Assistant] It was a class he had to get through. So he went over to the Buffalo Museum of Science. I go up to the third floor. There is a door that has gold letters on it.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Curator of astronomy. Knock on the door, voice comes out says, come on in. And by now I'm completely, you know, after what happened.


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[Assistant] Seventh grade science class, what to do. So I say, excuse me, sir, I'm thinking about how I got shut down in.


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[Assistant] My science class in seventh grade. Were you doing the talking Cliff? Or was your mom doing it? Or were you- No, my mom just said, you go, you walk in there, you go and tell them what you did. And I go, she's not going to do it for me.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Smoking a cigarette. And I say, I made a telescope. This guy looks up and says, oh really? What kind? Reflector? Refractor? What? Do you make lenses? I said, no. He uses a mirror and he says, you ground it yourself? I said, yeah.


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[Assistant] Pieces of wood and a tube and pipes, some plumbing pipes to make sort of a mount.


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[Assistant] You have to go back to 1962, 63 when money was scarce. My family is living off my father's minimum wage job. There's five kids when somebody would tip the bartender heavy.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] We would have hamburger the next day when nobody was tipping. Well, the next day it would be beans and rice for us. That's my life.


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[Assistant] This astronomer, this guy says, oh, well, what have you observed? And I reached in my pocket and pull out a little spiral pocket notebooks. And I said, well, here's what I saw the other day. Open up and show them that, oh, it looks like a bright star with some little stars next to it. He says, I wonder if it's the planet Jupiter. And I'm thinking, I hope so, I hope so, I hope so.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And so he reaches up on the shelf, pulls off this thick, gigundo book called Inephemerus.


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[Assistant] It has all sorts of numbers in it, and a graph showing where the moons of Jupiter are. He matches my cruddy notes with his wonderful book.


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[Assistant] Oh yeah, over here. You saw the planet Jupiter. Here's, here's EO. That's the one that you got over close here. Ganymede's over here. Callisto. Yep. It must've happened on Tuesday night at about seven 30. And he looks up and says, this is good work. What's your name? You say, it's Cliff. And he says, what's your last name? Cliff Stahl. He says, okay, from now on, he reaches over to the shelf, pulls out a notebook. He says, from now on,


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[Assistant] Where you are in the date. Don't forget the year. And this will be your logbook.


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[Assistant] And by the way, next Thursday it's public night. Come on up, I'll show you the sky through a real 8-inch refractor telescope.


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[Assistant] I don't even know their names. The public night after that, I do my homework in advance and I'm able to talk about Jupiter a little bit more.


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[Assistant] A year goes by, I start taking classes in astronomy at the museum. A couple more years go by and this guy says, oh, you know, I'm thinking of starting a summer program in astronomy. Summer program in astronomy is five or six high school kids from


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[Assistant] Around western New York, a couple of whom have made their own telescope, several of whom, hey,


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[Assistant] They're just interested in, in astronomy. We're up every day, using a solar telescope, figuring out


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[Assistant] How sunspots evolve, and this guy is telling me, hey, there's this journal that comes in called the Astrophysical Journal. Read a couple articles in it. I open this book. It's filled. Just cram-filled.


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[Assistant] With snake-like mathematics that I can't understand. And I say, go up to him and say, I can't understand it. He says, find the ones you can.


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[Assistant] Read those. And by the way, read this book on how sunspots come about. It's called Bray and Loth Head, Sunspots.


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[Assistant] Start reading it pretty easy. Pretty soon, it starts talking about physics, magnetism, electricity, and dynamos. Boy, it's hard going. He says, um, read this book over here by Sechi, great Jesuit astronomer, about what's happening in the sun. Read that one. That's a hundred years old. That's real easy to read.


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[Assistant] Near Pontiac, Michigan. McMath, Hulbert, Solar Observatory. We meet real solar astronomers. They're showing us their spectroheliographs and hydrogen alpha filters. And I know what they're talking about. I'm not afraid of a spectroheliograph. Hey, I use a little spectroheliograph at the museum.


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[Assistant] I understand what a solar flare is. I sort of can see why prominences have the shape there.


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[Assistant] I'm 16, 17 years old and I'm realizing I can actually understand what real astronomers are talking about. They're not talking down to me. When they talk to each other, I can pick up some of the words they're saying and understand just


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Go over there in the third row, sit down, fold your hands, be quiet, I'm about to start class. Every now and then I'd meet somebody who gave a damn that I could learn, who cared that I could become somebody much more than who I was now. And over there,


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[Assistant] Didn't call each other along the way. I've realized, oh yeah, he has a master's degree, no PhD, the depth that he unders.


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[Assistant] Yes, yes, and he's a flock of mushrooms named after him because he was such a good researcher. The important thing was he understood what research meant. Why was he the curator of astronomy if he was a mushroom expert? That was just the job that was going. Like many other people.


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[Assistant] He was overqualified for this job, but it wasn't open. So he said, yeah, I can do astronomy. My first book that I wrote, Cuckoo's Egg, I dedicated to him simply because he was the one guy who cared, who, who wasn't interested.


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[Assistant] He, she, he cared that I grew into a real human.


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[Assistant] Or I want a letter of recommendation. I hope he saw somebody who was embarrassed that his mom had taken him there. It's a difficult challenge to find the thing that resonates in a kid and.


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[Assistant] Feed it enough energy at just the right frequency so it keeps on vibrating and vibrates louder and louder inside of you.


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[Assistant] How I wish that the joy of going out in your backyard and seeing a lunar eclipse.


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[Assistant] To finish grad school and start doing postdocs and realizing that.


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[Assistant] Oh yeaah. What people want me to do is to write three papers a year and get published at least one paper that's good enough that it'll show up and be reviewed in the annual reviews of blah blah blah.


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[Assistant] Preparation for astronomy led into was writing grant proposals reviewing


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Looking for double stars. Trying to see if I could resolve divisions in Saturn's rings and then finding that well.


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[Assistant] Having done this, it's now time to write grant proposals. Okay, so I was doing a postdoc in Baltimore, Space Telescope Institute. There's three or four of us walking down the street, Baltimore.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Of course, central Baltimore, the sky's pretty bright. We're walking along.


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[Assistant] I look up and say, oh, I see Venus over there. Astronomer? No kidding.


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[Assistant] PhD astronomer looks at me and says, how do you know that's Venus? Oh, come on, come on.


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[Assistant] He says, no, no, really. How do you know that's Venus over there? I said, look.


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[Assistant] Or an hour or so after sunset, we're walking west. It's a bright star in the west. Come on, you, you're kidding me, aren't you? When I realized that.


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[Assistant] Looking at the sky and looking for meteors and going over near a bog, swatting mosquitoes, listening to frogs, looking at the sky and dreaming and imagining there are people for whom that's not a part of their life.


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[Assistant] For Professor Elizabeth Romer. It's my first year in grad school at the Lunar and Planetary Labs, Department of Planetary Sciences at University of Arizona. And there's this phenomenal


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[Assistant] Professor Elizabeth Romer, who's famous for doing astrometry, precision measuring of


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[Assistant] Star positions, but especially comet and asteroid positions. Turns out to be really important because a lot of comets and asteroids are so faint that...


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[Assistant] You can see them once. If you don't keep following them, you'll lose them. Well, this is 1974, September, October 74. I'm taking a class with them.


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[Assistant] I'm taking a class under the world's most important astrometrist and comet specialist. There's only two or three other people in the class month or so in.


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[Assistant] She says, I'm going observing up at Mount Bigelow. Anybody want to come along? It's a 1.6 meter telescope.


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[Assistant] Big telescope, and I have a chance to go observing with her. Well, I immediately raise my hand. I say, sure, two, three people in the class look at me like I'm a Martian. You want to go observing? So, Friday night, up in the hill.


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[Assistant] Just outside of Tucson. It's cold up there. It's up a thousand or so meters. It's hot in Tucson, but it's cold up there. Dress warm.


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[Assistant] You have to let the light from the asteroid fall on a glass plate. But the asteroid's moving. And it might be like a 19th, 20th magnitude object, which is so dim that you can't even see it.


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[Assistant] So, how do you take a picture of a really dim asteroid? Well, you have to let all the light fall on one point on the photographic plate. But the asteroid's moving, so while the telescope is following the stars, you have to carefully move the glass plate, the film,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] To follow the asteroid. Okay, so the frame of reference is


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[Assistant] The motion of the stars and they have to slowly offset a glass 10 by 10 inch plate to follow the motion of the asteroid. Ahead of time, you've spent a week doing linear algebra to figure out just how much turn it. So Professor Romer is there.


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[Assistant] Behind the telescope brings out this hypersensitized nitrogen baked plate, mounts it in the telescope, opens the shutter, and she will for the next eight hours


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[Assistant] Very carefully offset guide this telescope with crosshairs following a dim star and very carefully manipulating the telescope so


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[Assistant] On the side of the plate holder that turns a lead screw that causes the plate to move a fraction of a millimeter to follow the motion of the asteroid. Yep Brady, my job was every 43 seconds to say


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[Assistant] I was watching the sweep secondhand of a clock in the observatory every 43 seconds from 8.30 at night


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[Assistant] If you'd come all this way and you meet this person who's essentially your hero and you spend.


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[Assistant] A full night, counting off 43 second intervals. I mean.


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[Assistant] A Kodak darkroom timer could do a better job than I was. I mean, it was 1974, but I could have built an electronic gizmo to turn this damned knob.


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[Assistant] A half turn every 43 seconds. I didn't need an Arduino to do that. This is, the simple RC circuit could do it. I'm realizing that, wait a second.


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[Assistant] It's the surgeon having a medical student here doing the scut work just so that you realize, oh yeah, you've got a long way to come kid. It wasn't.


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[Assistant] Six months later, the radio station calls up the lunar and planetary lab and says, we hear that there's a meteor shower that's going to happen tomorrow night. What should we do?


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[Assistant] Nobody's around, so I answer and say, oh, the best thing to do is go out in the desert.


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[Assistant] Professional astronomy. And it harken back to, yeah, put your homework over here. Sit in the third row, fold your hands and pay attention. Yeah. There's a lot of that in the world.


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[Assistant] Not me, certainly not you. I don't give a damn about celebrity. I do care about getting the word out. I don't want to be known as, oh, you're the guy that caught-


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[Assistant] Not what I wanted. One of the few things that I learned in grad school was if something happens, write it down. If you don't write it down, might as well not have happened. But beyond that, publish what you've learned.


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[Assistant] If you don't tell people about it, it'll happen again, but it'll happen to somebody else in a worse way or better way. So I felt.


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[Assistant] Yeah, caught this hacker. I had no idea that there were such things as computer security problems. There were no books on computer security. And I figured, well, I'll write a scientific paper about it. Wrote a refereed article in the communications of the


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] ACM, what is it? The Association for Computer Machinery called Stalking the Wiley Hacker.


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[Assistant] A friend of mine, uh, Rich Muller up at Lawrence Berkeley Lab, Rich says to me, Cliff, you ought to write a book. And I say, I don't know how to write a book. I don't know how to write. I wouldn't know what to do. And he says, it's real easy to write a book. What you do is you write an outline for every chapter in your book, make a paragraph, then write a complete


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] One full chapter. Not the first one, not the last one. Some middle chapter. We write that. Write a biography of yourself. Then mail it to this guy in New York. John Brockman. He's a book agent.


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[Assistant] I haven't been in the newspapers, you know, FBI kept calling me up saying, don't say anything. The NSA said, oh, don't say anything. The CIA said, don't say anything. My bosses don't say anything. So I'm good at keeping my mouth shut except around you Brady. And so I start writing this book proposal and I figure I want to write a book called.


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[Assistant] Fundamentals of computer security in a networked environment.


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[Assistant] Chapter 1, you know, what's a computer? What's a register stack? What's a disk drive? You know, what's Boolean logic? Chapter 2, what's a program? What's a compiler? What's an operating system? Chapter 3, what's a network? What's the internet protocol? What's the ARPANET? Chapter 4.


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[Assistant] What's security, what's coding, what's cryptography, one-way trapdoor functions. So write this outline.


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[Assistant] 23 chapters sent to this guy, John Brockman. He's a book agent. Three days later, get a phone call. No kidding. Looking for Cliff Stoll. This is Cliff. Brockman here. Got your book proposal. Can't sell it. You don't know how to write. And he hangs up.


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[Assistant] I see. Well, perfectly fine. I go back to doing astronomy and physics.


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[Assistant] Lawrence Berkeley Labs in a week, a month, two, three months goes by and somebody in Germany, well, this stuff's been kept hush hush secret. Somebody in Germany leaks the story.


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[Assistant] To somebody who leaks the story to the New York Times, one Monday morning, Monday morning in front page of the New York Times, above the fold, Berkeley astronomer.


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[Assistant] It's four o'clock over here in Berkeley. My phone rings. Oh, I'm looking for Cliff. This is Cliff.


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[Assistant] Yeah, let me see your book. Let me see all your book proposals. John, I can't write any better today than I could three months ago.


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[Assistant] Go ahead, just leave me alone. Let me go back to sleep. Eight hours later, this guy calls back.


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[Assistant] He sold this book proposal that three months ago he wouldn't blink an eye at. He sells it for forty thousand bucks! And this is twice my salary!


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[Assistant] What's hardware? What's a register stack? Chapter two, you know, disk drives and all that stuff. Get through four or five chapters. Friend of mine, Guy Consolamano comes by. We've known each other since grad school. We're in the Lunar Planetary Labs together. We've known each other for 10, 15, 20 years. He comes by. Joining the Jesuits. Ah.


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[Assistant] Brilliant astronomer, wonderful friend. And so, you know, so I say, well, I'm going to become a published author.


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[Assistant] Four or five chapters, he says, looks up at me. Eh, he says, Cliff, this is terrible.


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[Assistant] You don't know how to write. And I say, I don't care. They're going to pay me 40,000 bucks. They bought this book proposal.


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[Assistant] Guy looks at me and says, Doubleday's gonna sell 600, maybe 700 copies to every computer jock in the world. I said, perfectly fine by me! Guy says, Doubleday doesn't want to sell 400 or 500, they want to sell 4000!


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It's, it's all about computers. And I said, that's the whole thing. I chased down these computer security problems. Guy says, no, no, no, no, it's not about computers. It's about people. I said, no, it's not about people. It's about problems in this software, this Unix system. Guy says, no, it isn't. It's about these hackers.


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[Assistant] It's about these Stasi agents in East Germany. It's about these.


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[Assistant] Fools who are leaning on you in the government. It's about these people at the NSA. It's about these CIA spooks. It's about this FBI agent who won't help you. It's about these people in Berkeley who are skateboarding on Quaaludes. It's about this.


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[Assistant] It's about a bunch of people you're living with. It's about a little commune. It's about, you know, Berkeley life. It's about astronomers that you know. It's about you. And I say, no it isn't.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Register stacks, it's about disk drives. So Guy and I.


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[Assistant] You walk around Berkeley and you spend a day and he says, you know, I can't help you. Go find a book on how to write. So you go over to the bookstore, find a book, how to write. And guy points to it and says, look,


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[Assistant] Something about right to the point or something like that. It says whenever you write.


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[Assistant] Don't let a paragraph or a page get by without talking about people! Goes on and says, you know, what do you do when you can't figure out what to say? You ask a question. Then you spend the rest of the page or the rest of the paragraph answering the question. When you come to a stopping point, oh, figure out what's cool, what's interesting, or who's doing what. Well, all that stuff's easy to do, cause...


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[Assistant] I'm a physicist. I keep a good notebook. So I just started telling stories about what was happening. Meanwhile, whenever I got tired of it, I'd go back to writing a book about computer security, writing a book about how we caught this hacker.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] No, a guy, a physicist friend, comes up to me and says, you know, fame is a lot like a kiss. You know when it's coming. You know, you just feel a kiss is coming. And while it's happening,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Boy, it takes your brain away from you and all you can think about is this kiss. But you know yourself that when it's over with, you're gonna have to live with yourself. You're going to have to.


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[Assistant] Be a person that hopefully has integrity, hopefully has a sense of where they're going and where they've been, and you can't call upon the genie to


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[Assistant] People are throwing tomatoes at me, I want to make sure they mostly miss. I want to keep exploring the universe around.


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[Assistant] My thing, I enjoy mathematics and topology. I'm tickled and delighted to supply math fanatics.


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[Assistant] One-sided surfaces, I'm not a mathematical researcher. To me, the joy of it is, it's a chance to meet smart mathematicians and learn from them. It's a chance for me to go and read books about these things and say, oh, now I sort of understand what homeomorphic really means.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Arbitrarily wide, arbitrarily deep and high. There are huge amounts to learn and that I have learned. Why Klein bottles? Oh, years and years, 40, 50 years ago, I tried making a


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Took my $20 bill and hadn't occurred to me that bong makers oftentimes were bong users. $20 went up his nose probably.


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[Assistant] I made some other Klein models of various materials as a postdoc, but then after this thing with the hacker died down, I realized, you know, I can fool around and make a few of these.


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[Assistant] It's fun. It's business in the extent that, yeah, money exchanges hands and Brady...


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[Assistant] You understand this. A lot of people, you understand this, that you're not doing this, oh, for money. You're doing it because it's a gas when a 14 year old kid starts talking to you about topology and they're smarter than you are and they know more and you're learning from them or someone's giving


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] A Klein bottle as a wedding gift to a couple and say, you know, may your lives intertwine like this, be one sided to you. It just.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Gives me nice, nice feelings. It's a chance to meet fascinatingly.


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[Assistant] Wonderful people. Not to mention to do a little bit of artistry in class, a little bit of burning my fingers, and uh,


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[Assistant] Ask her what she's doing, and pretty soon she's teaching me about...


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[Assistant] The Cantor Set. Well, I knew something about the Cantor Set and Cantor Dust and Jesus. Oh, but you don't know about the Fat Cantor Set.


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[Assistant] I hadn't realized there was such a thing. And it's the ingredients of thinking in the middle of the night. You could wake up in the middle of the night instead of thinking, this thought, that thought. I'd start thinking, oh yeah, what does it mean to have zero measure? What does it mean to have a set that when you add up an infinite number of points, you still have nothing?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It's fun. What I think others are unaware of is not all, but many of the things that you come by and I start talking about. It's a chance for me to learn.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Math. It's a chance for me to make a mistake and have people call me up and say, hey, you got that wrong, Cliff. And I say, oh, you know, I didn't know that part. I did something or other on curvature of pizza.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And guy comes over and we're talking, he says, oh yeah, you, you mostly understand what Gaussian curvature is, but what you don't understand is brrrrp.


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[Assistant] It goes nowhere. It's like going back a little bit. The people that I'd like to impress? No, that's the wrong word. The people that I would like


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[Assistant] Left their fingerprints all over me. For me, the joy of being known online or elsewhere isn't, oh, look at me, look at me, but rather, hey.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] In the mid-90s, my wife and I had two children. I found raising kids to be so much more interesting than anything that was online. Meanwhile, there was an enormous amount of hyperbole about


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Our world will be transformed for the better by the wonders of


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[Assistant] Computers and networks and I was skeptical as I am skeptical of lots of things and I made some pretty stupid rash statements, many of which were absolutely phenomenally wrong.


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[Assistant] Some of which I'm very sad to say were correct.


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[Assistant] I'm not disturbed at all by being wrong.


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[Assistant] I hope I'm wrong often. Probably I'm wrong at this very moment. Nor do I preen myself. Oh, I was right about that. Look, I did that, said that right. No, no, no, neither of these mean anything to me.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The sadness comes from seeing people who have such phenomenal potential, so much to contribute.


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[Assistant] Spending huge amounts of time playing video games, checking in.


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[Assistant] On social networks, and instead of making wonderful, cool things, instead of developing things and changing the world, instead they find, oh, I can escape from reality into this virtual online or offline world.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It's not, oh, I'm against computer games, nor is it that...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I'm against fooling around with systems. Rather, I really love the idea of people creating new things that will change our world for the better.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] How can I say? That's the direction that I want to see. It's not like, oh, I'm upset the world has developed this way or that. No, I'm the most precious thing I have. Most precious thing you have, Brady.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Time is so easy to waste. It's so easy to spend it on things that don't have meaning or importance. I can't judge for you. You can't judge for somebody else. I can judge in my own life though. I know when I'm wasting time and...


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[Assistant] I haven't written an astronomy paper, a physics paper in a couple decades. I haven't written a mathematics paper. Ever.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Constantly building things, but will they leave a lasting impression? No.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] WB2PSX and later on, uh, K7TA, extra class ticket, all thing, learned Morse code to the point where I could send and receive 20 words a minute. Got my radio license, was licensed to work at FM radius. What am I talking about?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] FM means fine music, and consistently fine music is founded. 88.7 on your FM dial.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] WBFO, the student voice of the State University of New York at Buffalo.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] My dream then was I wanted to do radio. Somehow or another I ended up...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Decided, no, I'm not gonna go to Washington. I'm gonna head over to Tucson, go to grad school.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Computer security jock. Became a writer. Wrote a book. Then became a topology entrepreneur. Along the way became a dad. A husband. Someone who helped put speed bumps on the streets in Oakland, California.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] My wife says, oh, on her gravestone, carved the words, the jury is still out. I like that. I like her.


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[Assistant] His story takes him from climbing fences and sneaking into math lectures at a Moscow university, all the way to the hallowed blackboards of Berkeley.


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[Assistant] It's the sort of story that one might write a book about. In fact, Edward has written a book about it. And today, he's sharing the journey with us.


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[Assistant] Where were you born in the world? Not America, I'm guessing from your accent.


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[Assistant] Soviet Union at the time. Whereabouts is a place I will have heard of?


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[Assistant] What, what was it about the culture of the country at the time that would have made science like so revered?


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[Assistant] Are you saying that as a boy, like as a young boy where you're not, you're not totally as engaged with that side of things that much? Yes, I didn't know all that of course at the time. But are you saying that even at that time the authorities encouraged like, you know, lots of books and stuff about science because they wanted to recruit


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Was it mathematics that was your number one or were you also interested in literature or physics or chemistry or was it always going to be math?


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[Assistant] You're a school boy, you're heroes of these physicists, you're very excited about physics and this mysterious world of particles and quantum mechanics. Mathematics at this point seems like a bit mundane. Boring, boring. What happens that switches? Because obviously you're sitting in front of me as a mathematician. Yes, yes.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Was that, well, I'm sure we'll come to this, but the thing that comes into my head, does that black mark go down two generations? Is that going to affect you later on? But I'm sure we'll get to that. Guess what? We'll get to that.


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[Assistant] But what happens now because like teenage you now just has to go back to high school.


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[Assistant] Where you're just being taught like basic mathematics and you're not getting access to all that stuff. So how do you get access to this thing you've just seen?


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[Assistant] How was this like advanced, inspiring education you were getting once a week, meshing with still having to sit through boring math lessons at school?


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[Assistant] Overtake physics and you start thinking, I don't even want to do physics. I want to be, I just want to be a pure mathematician now.


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[Assistant] Do you remember a branch of mathematics or a theorem or a field that you were taught about at this time that's a really exemplar of, oh my goodness, where did this come from?


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[Assistant] A lot of people who I've spoken to, who are mathematicians now, when I speak to them, they always say to me, when I was at high school, I didn't even know what a mathematician was, I didn't know it was a job, but it sounds like because of your exposure to Yevgeny, you did know what a mathematician was.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I know you weren't aware of this discrimination that was happening, but were you very aware of your Jewishness? Like, would you have known? Oh yeah, my dad, my dad has Jewish in his passport.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So what happens when you apply to Moscow then? Do you sit the exam and like, do you actually sit exams?


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[Assistant] Did you come away from that experience with what you talked about, thinking, I'm not as good as I thought I was, or did you know they stitched me up? I am good enough, but they've stitched me up here. Which of those two were you?


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[Assistant] How did you get from writing your first paper at 18 to suddenly being at Harvard? That seems like a quantum leap.


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[Assistant] Amazing. So obviously, does this mean mathematicians at Harvard had seen your papers and just said, we've got to get this younger?


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[Assistant] So without being too, without being too technical, and if it's possible, what is the area of mathematics at this point that you've made your name in? These, these papers you wrote that were so groundbreaking and the things that you brought you to Harvard, what's this area of mathematics called?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Did the move to the United States really boost your ability and your career? I can imagine to some extent it might make you...


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[Assistant] So your book, and I will link to your book in the notes to the podcast, it's sort of, your book seems to have two threads, doesn't it? It's this biographical story and you really, you want to get some of this stuff off your chest about what happened in Russia and how wrong you think that was, but you've also got this agenda of wanting to talk to people about


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[Assistant] So do you think the book's greatest success is its ability to tell the story of the pain of Edward's journey, or do you think it's, or do you think its success was showcasing the masterpieces, which is what you set out to do?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I have to ask you about one other artistic endeavour of yours. This is your, your controversial, can I call it controversial? Yes. Your controversial film, which I have seen, which means I've seen a lot more of your flesh than I may have expected when we first met. Tell people about what this film is, how it came to be and, uh, and what happened.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I tell you what as well Ed, you were before your time, because these days when I meet young people and mathematicians, everyone has mathematical formulas and things to do with mathematics tattooed on their body. Well thank you for saying that.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] In the film, Edward's character does the tattoo.


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[Assistant] We often hear like, you know, mathematicians do their best work when they're young. We have the Fields Medal for under 40 year olds and things like that. Is your best work behind you or is your best work ahead of you? But also is your best work mathematics or artistic? Cause you seem to like doing the arts and the math stuff now.


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[Assistant] For more about Edward's work, and of course to check out his book, see the links down in the notes.


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[Assistant] I'll also put some links there that Edward has recommended, other stuff you might want to read or see. And of course, I'll also put a link to Edward's Numberphile videos.


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[Assistant] This podcast was recorded at the Mathematical Sciences Research Institute, which is a great supporter of Numberphile. And we'd also like to thank our episode sponsor, Maya Sound. They're an audio engineering company, also based in Berkeley. Have a look at the notes for more links.


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[Assistant] I'm Brady Haran, this is the Numberphile Podcast, and we'll be back in your feeds again very soon.


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[Assistant] My man, RV, myself, we're gonna be bringing it to you each week this year. We're really excited about it. Before we get going, uh, big thanks, uh, partners back on this year again to take another year as a United Motorsports. Appreciate you guys.


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[Assistant] And of course Foxo USA, uh, we appreciate you joining the ride with us. And uh, RV, it's been a fun off season.


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[Assistant] Uh, holidays were good for me. I'm ready to rip, but I will say, although A won.


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[Assistant] And the 2024 SMX championship begins this weekend in Anaheim. Dude.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] My favorite pastime is snow skiing, snowboarding, and you are on a family trip. Tell us about it.


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[Assistant] The first time I was ever, uh, uh, just for our viewers and listeners, uhm,


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[Assistant] The first time I ever got to snow ski was like, uh, 2008. I never went, you know, when I was racing, obviously. And the first thing that I did was snowboard over skiing.


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[Assistant] Uh, and I had an epic time and the reason that I, uh,


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[Assistant] Decided to snowboard first because I used to do a lot of wakeboarding, uh, back in the day when I was younger. So anyhow, I love it. It's my favorite pastime for sure. There's just something about it. So, uh, I am jealous of you for sure. When you guys coming back.


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[Assistant] Sweet, sweet. Well, uhm, I'm excited to go. It's been a lot of talk. Uh, we're going to get into it today, but uh, let's just rip the bandaid off right now.


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[Assistant] Getting into, uh, that 250, uh, SMX championship and, uh, the new shiny object.


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[Assistant] Uh, he's, he's deserved this talk, but, uh, Jett Lawrence, uh, he is the SMX world champ, reigning SMX world champ. He hasn't raced a full supercross season.


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[Assistant] Uh, at all hasn't even raced a big bike and Monster Energy Supercross. And you know, I, I want to hear what you have to say.


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[Assistant] I think the guy's got what it takes. I think he's going to have some, uh, bumps in the road. Uh, but I mean, what's your take?


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[Assistant] Hey, do you feel like, do you feel like the chances of going undefeated are easier?


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[Assistant] In Supercross or harder in Supercross? You answer that and I'll tell you what I think.


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[Assistant] Yeah, I agree with you, uhm, 120%. I definitely kind of echo what you're saying. It's like, I just feel like you're, you're.


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[Assistant] Your, your area of where things can go wrong are, they're so great, so much greater in Supercross. The margins of error are much tighter, uh, to your point.


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[Assistant] The motos are longer and there's two motos. I mean, definitely a lot more racing time, but at the same time, I mean, you get a little sideways, you have so much more room.


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[Assistant] Supercross, uhm, and, and you know what, I'm not even trying to crown a champion, but I do definitely think that, uh,


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[Assistant] The jet is going to be one of the guys to, uh, to, to, to keep an eye on for sure, for good reason. Um, you know what? We got some fun stuff this year, everybody. Uh, United Motorsports moment. Um, this is going to be a dedicated section to them each week. And, uh, for all of you guys, United Motorsports has made a landing pad.


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[Assistant] Uh, it's united motorsports.com slash title 24. You guys go there, sign up. And this is really important. Listen to this. When you go and sign up.


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[Assistant] You're going to get a $15 credit to your next purchase. So right out of the gate. All you got to do.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Sign up, $15 credit and the cool thing that United Motorsports is doing each week, they're going to pick out of all the people who sign up.


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[Assistant] They are going to pick one lucky winner every single week and get a $50 credit to your account. So, or your purchase. So, uh,


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[Assistant] This is something that I'm really excited about. Great to see, uh, United Motorsports, uh, really getting involved. And like I said, Ray Butz and the crew over there do a fantastic job. But, uh,


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[Assistant] The reason that, uh, we are, are showing this sound on tape, the United Motorsports moment is because I think it's pretty important to show what, uh, Jet Lawrence and, uh, and what he's looking for.


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[Assistant] That's a bold statement for everyone wanting to know. We grabbed that in media days, which is awesome that a lot of the athletes show up for that. Gives us some time to, uh,


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[Assistant] Talk with them, see how their off-season going, see what their expectations are going, but that was earlier in December, and uh, producer Chris Bond was asking Jet that, and duty


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[Assistant] He throws it out there. I've never really heard anyone say I'm going for MC's Supercross record. What's your take?


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[Assistant] The field was stacked for sure when you and I were racing. I mean, the competitors that we were racing against, I put them up against the guys that were racing today and some of the guys that we were able to beat and win championships against. Their records are right up, right up at the top of the list. So, uh, but I just feel like


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[Assistant] Why I feel like it's stacked this year is because there's a lot of guys that can win.


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[Assistant] You know, compared to say in our day, maybe there's, uh, you know, three or four guys for me, at least in my era, maybe a couple more in your area, guys that could legitimately win. But dude, now you look down the line.


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[Assistant] I mean, there's just, there's so many guys. Cooper Webb, Ken Roxton, Anderson, I think Hunter could be good for a win on the right night. I think that bike's gonna suit him well. And you talk about Eli, Jett, Chase. I mean, the, the, the list is endless. You know, so I, I mean.


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[Assistant] 100% and that leads me to the next writer and you talked about Eli already.


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[Assistant] In my opinion, I feel like that's the question mark for, for Jett. I will say this. I definitely think that Jett has.


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[Assistant] If, you know, I don't want to think for Jet cause I'm not in his head, but if, if it were me.


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[Assistant] I would be thinking, man, Eli's the only guy that I haven't raced. I don't really know what he does. I don't like, I've never followed him. I don't know what it's like to be followed by him.


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[Assistant] Here's the thing, Jet knows, Jet knows, Chase's weaknesses.


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[Assistant] He knows Chase the Strength, same for Kenny, same for Cooper. He's raced these guys, so he knows kind of what to expect.


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[Assistant] That's not the case with Eli. And I just feel like Eli is so strong at the end of the race. And dude, we've talked about this. I think it's gonna be...


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[Assistant] You know, I think it's gonna be a massive challenge for him and I wanna see how he handles it. I'm not saying he can't handle it, he probably will, but it's gonna be fun to see how he reacts, uh, along with everyone else, but this is the only guy that


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[Assistant] He doesn't know what Eli does, does well, or does, does or doesn't do well, in my opinion, in a race situation, because he's never been there. Yes, he's watched him, he knows he's strong, but...


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[Assistant] Uh, with Jett on, on Eli, but I think this injury, uh, came at a good time in my opinion, because


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[Assistant] I feel had he did the trifecta, I just wonder where the motivation would have been. I mean, like, at what stage, like, would it have been like, dude, I've done it all, you know?


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[Assistant] What I wanna see and it's gonna be, it's gonna, it's gonna be fun to watch that. Hey, uh,


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[Assistant] Before we get on this next rider, uh, another fun little segment that, uh, we put together this year for Title 24 is the Boxo Breakdown.


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[Assistant] Each week we're gonna be, uh, breaking down certain situations that has happened.


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[Assistant] Uh, thank you to Boxo. Great partner. Check him out. BoxoUSA.com. Remember, lifetime warranty on all of their tools. Super easy to get that warranty product. All you gotta do, take a picture, send it.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] to them and they will send you a new part. So, uh, they are the best tool in the game. I know monster entry star Yamaha, uh, uses them. Go check their setups out, uh, underneath that Yamaha star.


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[Assistant] Uh, monster team should be pretty good. So the box-o breakdown.


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[Assistant] Uh, with the bike that he was having and, and, and he's been kind of honest from what I've heard in the off season, like, Hey, maybe some of the struggles were, were him and him not handling certain situations. Right. This is what I've read and heard from a couple of people. Uh, I like him taking personal responsibility. That's cool. But.


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[Assistant] To me, I feel like this is one of those moves, RV, where when you make a move like this,


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[Assistant] I think it's important to, you have to, you have to come out and you have to basically confirm with yourself that this was the right decision.


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[Assistant] Unfortunately for some people that's going to require really good results out of the gate because he's going to be under the microscope in my opinion. Give us the box or breakdown on Chase Sex and what you think.


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[Assistant] Yeah, it's gonna be, and I agree with you about, it definitely, I've heard, I agree with you, like he's gonna, I feel like the mental side of things. Yes, you.


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[Assistant] You know, you have a solid weekend. Again, not lighting it on fire, but you can't.


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[Assistant] You can't be subpar, so that's what I think.


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[Assistant] Uh, that's what I'm gonna be looking for. I hope it goes well.


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[Assistant] Uh, for him, I know that would be important, so uhm, I don't know what the answer is going to be. That's why I'm excited to see.


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[Assistant] Uh, how he re- how he reacts, but uh, great stuff on the-


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[Assistant] I agree with you 100%. I don't have anything much more valuable.


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[Assistant] Uh, uh, to add, however, there's a ton of other guys, you know, I think of.


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[Assistant] Guy like, uh, Cooper Webb, kind of a bold decision for him. He's leaving KTM that, uh, Chase Sexton thinks that is going to be the magic answer for him.


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[Assistant] Cooper Webb's been there, we knew he wasn't happy, now he...


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[Assistant] Kinda like Chase, he thinks he'll be able to contend going to that Monster Energy Star Yamaha team. So he's, in my opinion, he better put up, hey, put up or shut up, right? Yep.


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[Assistant] Yeah, he is. One thing that I will give Cooper Webb and, and you might think different is,


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[Assistant] I think he needs to have some more raw speed compared to the guys that he's going to be racing from what I've seen. He did do well. He did well that last night in Paris at Bercy.


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[Assistant] Uhm, but I think he's lacked at raw speed, but not always do you need it in the main event.


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[Assistant] I do feel like if you let a guy like Cooper Webb get a good start, well, no one's letting him get a good start. If he gets a good start and he's able to run up front and he's improved his whoop speed a little bit.


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[Assistant] I feel like his knowledge in racecraft...


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[Assistant] Could possibly help him get up to the speeds that he needs to be at.


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[Assistant] Uh, so maybe, just maybe his race knowledge might fill in the gaps. What do you think?


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[Assistant] Uhm, A1, I mean, you think about a guy like Ken Roxton.


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[Assistant] I mean dude, he shines in moments like this. I feel like he just rises to the occasion. He embraces these kind of moments. He gets excited.


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[Assistant] Uh, I expect nothing less of Kenny. I mean, I'm just looking at this sheet on our rundown here of all these riders. I mean, we could go on and on and on and just give our viewers, and there's hours of our thoughts. But what do you think? You think Kenny is going to be Kenny and do well? And obviously he's one of the favorites to win.


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[Assistant] Yep, exactly. And for all of our viewers and listeners here at Title 24i, uh, that, that's what we, uh, both RV and I know that Kenny can rise up to the occasion. He shines in multiple moments like this, his history and stats speak for themselves. He had a good, he had a better year last year at the end of the season. I was happy to see, uh, see that for Kenny.


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[Assistant] But, uh, to, to, to Arby's point, definitely that's, that's what I'm looking to see if Kenny can go a little bit deeper into the series and be there midway through.


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[Assistant] So he can, assuming he finishes as strong as he did last year, he'd be in the title fight, uh, for sure. So that's what I'm looking for, uh, with Kenny. Hey, uhm, I know that you've got some scuttlebutt from this next dude, but, uh,


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[Assistant] I had a good conversation with, uh, Jason Anderson, uh, at Media Days.


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[Assistant] Uhm, it was, it was pleasant, dude. He seemed like he's in a great spot. Uhm, he shared some insight of what had went on last year and, and not, not in a bad way, just some areas where


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He thought that he needed to be better and why we saw the repetitive mistakes and, uh, needless to say, he said that he's in a great spot this year.


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[Assistant] Yeah, he said, uh, he told me at Media Days that the new platform that you're explaining, RV, is that, uh,


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[Assistant] That, that, the problem spots he had last year and you're spot on.


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[Assistant] When I talked to him at media days again, he said that they had fixed the problem spots. He's super comfortable and he still feels like he could run that pace and run that speed. He's another guy.


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[Assistant] You know, I mean, you know how it is, RV, when these guys have been doing it for so long, their, their knowledge and then their, their experience and their tenure.


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[Assistant] Can fill in so many gaps, like we're talking about Cooper Webb when you have a guy that's won so many championships and they've been in the game for a while, if you can.


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[Assistant] Dude, the knowledge is worth a couple tenths. So, uh, I hope, I hope for the Monster Energy Kawe team he does well as well. I like the crew over there. Uhm, next guy, so.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You know, going back and forth with them. We take a lot of questions from the fans. Uh, this next rider that we want to talk about is going to be a fan question from King0125.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Don't, don't like, like, I don't know, like what your dad used to teach you, my mom always used to say, don't turn one mistake into two or three other mistakes, right? Just make one.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Tear off and move on down the next. Uh, next couple guys, Aaron Plessinger, I'd love to see him do good. He's a man of the people.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, you know, I don't know, we'll see. I just, uh, I'm pulling for him. I heard he's had a great off season. Uh, but Malcolm Stewart, uhm, when we were at Media Days, he was...


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[Assistant] He was kind of underplaying how well that I heard that he has been riding. Little Birdie told me that, uh, dude, he's at another level that they are all chasing him.


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[Assistant] At the uh, at the, at the test tracks during the week.


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[Assistant] Or wherever they ride at the facilities. So, uh, have you, have you heard anything on Malcolm?


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[Assistant] Yeah, that hosed him last year for sure. I think there was before he got hurt.


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[Assistant] Two instances for sure that I know I'm like, Oh, duty's got it in the bag tonight. And then you're like, Oh crap, what happened?


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[Assistant] Yeah, so we'll see. I mean, that guy has incredible whip speed. Everyone and, uh,


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[Assistant] I was listening or watching us on the show. When you guys are watching the broadcast this weekend and hopefully it will present itself, but watch how fast that, uh,


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[Assistant] Whoop Speed makes it, makes it a lot easier.


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[Assistant] Dude, I know you got some deep thoughts and, and important thoughts on this next guy, but, uh, just, uh, I wanna, I wanna...


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[Assistant] Mention this guy's accolades. It's uh, Jorge Prado. He's a three time, uhm, world MXGP champion. Well, not MXGP class, but two time MX2 champ.


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[Assistant] And, uh, reigning MXGP champ, 3-time world champ, so, uh,


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[Assistant] Like that was his dream to race Anaheim 1, like when he was a little kid, it wasn't race MXGPs or whatever it might be. He just, he wanted to race Anaheim. Well, he's given, he's, he's gotten that opportunity.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And, uh, I hope he does well. The kid is, uh, I mean, he's so happy. He's fun to be around. And I think that the sport needs, needs, the sport would benefit to see him.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] See him do well, do well. Uhm, an MXGP guy coming over here. They're always got this little like, uh,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Stigma of they, you know, they can't ride super cross, blah, blah, blah. What's your thoughts, dude?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You think he'll be here? You think he'll be here after his MXGP contract? If he does, well I know it's a, I know it's a massive if.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You think, you think he's, I, I think he wants to stay here after his MXGP in my opinion.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Perfect. So, uh, that was a question. Uh, Riley Stevens, 56. He said, uh, they say, what result will be a positive for Prado? You answered that, uh, because knowing he's a rookie in the premier class. So Riley Stevens, 56. There you go.


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[Assistant] Your man RV telling you right there, anything inside top five would be like a win. I agree. That would be damn impressive if he's able to do that. Not, not saying he's not capable of that, but it just, you guys, I mean, you know how it is. It's like a hornet's nest.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] For everyone that lives in California, it's like never driving on the 405 in LA during rush hour traffic and then that's your driving experience right there.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Hey, this is gonna be interesting. You've been pretty outspoken about this.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Do you think Ferrandus not having factory support will affect his performance?


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[Assistant] There you go, you heard it from the man himself, Ryan Villapoto and his thoughts on Feranus. Appreciate the question, Joseph.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Had another great talk with him at Media Days. You know, he, in my opinion, listened.


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[Assistant] I think he, to make as many races as he did last year was certainly a positive.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You know, once in a while he has some issues with that nerve in his arm and I ask him, can he tell? And he's like, dude, not always. He said, there's no rhyme or reason. So.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Hopefully he has more good days than he has bad days or that thing, or at least I hope that he doesn't have flare ups on race day. I think he's well spoken. Uhm, he gets really good starts as well. And I think if he can build on the season that he had last year, I only anticipate him to be better. Uhm, so.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Hopefully, uh, AC does well. That's enough, uh, meat.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] For the 450, we will break down everything on the 450 after Anaheim. Uh, next week, uh,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, we'll, we'll be some, we'll be a Monday morning quarterback, all of you guys, so don't mess up, so.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He isn't racing the west coast, but, uh, I want you to answer this. So fab pal 10 RV.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Asks, thoughts on Deegan not racing west? Cause they know he can't beat Joe?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] No, no, uh, Joe, uh, Joe versus, uh, Hampshire, that'll be good. The Starboys are gonna, they're always good.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, Monster Energy Pro Circuit Kawasaki guys are going to be great as well. I mean, these 250 classes are just so good. You just never know.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, who, who's going to rise to the occasion. You got Ryder D changing teams. I mean, I think about just how long he's been with the Kawasaki coming up through their amateur program, the team green program, then shifting over to a pro circuit Kawasaki team.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, but a lot to look forward to, uhm, which, uh, I mean, is there anything you wanna say? Anybody else you think we need to look at?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I think Joe's gonna do great. I think he's gonna be at a great, uh, I think he's in a great environment, myself personally.


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[Assistant] Uhm, RJ, you guys know RJ. He always, he always sends it, uh, he's gonna be, uh, a lot of fun to watch. He always gives it 110%. You can see it in his writing.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Eliminate some of those, uh, tip overs. And I think, uh, he'll be, uh, he'd be a super challenge for the championship. And yeah, I think just, I'm looking forward to, like you're saying, even like with the kitchen.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Alright, so uh, second year round, the quad lock question of the week.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Thank you, Quadlock. We appreciate, uh, your partnership. Make sure you guys check them out. Quadlockcase.com for, uh, all your foam case needs. They got chargers, mounts for your adventure bikes, uh, UTVs, you name it.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] They've got it all. I like the charger. The charger works really well. It's like a magnetic charger. I set it on my bedside.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Works awesome. They got a little wallet that attaches it as well. So make sure you check that, uh, check them out.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, we appreciate everybody at Quadlock. Uh, Quadlock question of the week is from Christopher Parrish and the reason that Christopher wins the Quadlock question of the week.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Is because this is such a hot topic and the stats behind this question are just, uh,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, they're amazing. You know, you would think that winning Anaheim one, that, that, uh, most Anaheim one winners go on to win the championship. Not so fast. So Christopher Pearce says, how important is it to win a one?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Or is a top five finish the aim for most teams?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So when you, I mean, obviously we all want to win races, right? We want to win every race that we line up for. But when you went to Anaheim one, what was your soul?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Goal for that, for that night. Was it to win? Like tell me what your game plan was.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, I had like, uh, I was kind of the same way, like, I went in there, I'm like, dude, if I can be on the podium, that'll be great because I feel like this, to your point, it has a stigma around it and I feel like,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Lightning in a bottle almost and I, I hated racing in those environments. Not that I, because I did poorly. I just didn't like them, you know, like, so I was kind of like a mid season, uh, down the stretch kind of guy, but, uh, I'm with you. I went there. If the wind was there, obviously I was going to take it. Hell yeah.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But, uh, just to, just to have that little checkbox. But at the end of the day, I was always big picture. So, uh, Christopher Parrish, we appreciate it. You know what to do. You win the quad lock question of the week. First one at season two.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, congratulations, uh, slide into the title 24 direct message on Instagram and our man JH will put you in contact with Quadlock and Quadlock will send you some swag.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] SMX Insiders, Jason Wigant, Jason Thomas on YouTube, as you know. Same thing there. And then Friday, the Dakar Rally begins Saudi Arabia. Cashette Nightly at 7.30 PM Eastern on Peacock.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And then there's Saturday night, a one baby. Check that out. You can see right there Tuesday, 2 30 PM race day live practice and qualifying. That's live on Peacock. Make sure you check it out and all new this year.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, all west coast races are going to be starting 8 PM Eastern time.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So check that out. Uh, man, I am so excited for that. Uh, it'll be 7.30 Eastern on Peacock. We got a pre-race show. So make sure you check out on Peacock, 7.30 PM Saturday. That is going to be really, really cool. Uh, having that pre-show.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, man, I can't, I can't wait for that. I love the, uh, earlier time, um, when I heard tops and rumblings of it.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Um, I'm all for it because I, you know, I'm from the East Coast RV and, uh, you know, a lot of, a lot of people, a lot of fans watch, so they won't have to watch the next day with it starting at eight. So, uh, good stuff. Make sure you tune in to that. So that's, uh,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] RV, that's about it for, for right now. What'd you, what'd you think? You get in what, uh, you get in everything you wanted to say before you, you hit the slopes, you sorry dog.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Keep the shiny side up, up there. Uh, thank you everyone for tuning in and, uh, and all the support.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, we appreciate all of our, uh, all of our partners, United Motorsports, Boxo and, uh, Quadlock. You guys are the best. We appreciate you for jumping on.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And, uh, and also to United Mother Sports, Boxo, and Quadlock for giving our viewers and listeners some product. Remember, for the audio version of this, we're on all of the podcast platforms, so you can, uh,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Download whichever podcast platform you like and you can listen to it, uh,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You know, for all intents and purposes, that's when I started collecting con my anecdotes and then.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So all in all I've been kind of on his, on his trail for...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You know, I was on this trail for more than, more than 10 years, which is a long time. So every day I would walk across town and go and sit with


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And yeaah, there were countless, countless visits and he was supremely generous with his time. He was at once a biographer's...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Of information, but you know, there were pros and cons and you know, he was kind of as I came to discover in the fact checking process when I would.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Well have I ever told you the story of how I came to Discoverist Real Numbers?


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[Assistant] And yeah, he just had this, you know, obviously this massive curiosity. I think he would write Martin Gardner letters in the sixties and seventies telling him about all his.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] One time Martin read back and you know commented on the kaleidoscopic profusion of


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[Assistant] Period in his life where he was quite down and wasn't happy with how he was progressing as a mathematician and then he had his.


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[Assistant] You know, at Cambridge there was the John Horton Conway Appreciation Society. I think the students were always quite agog with him. You know, he would come in seeming to not know what he was doing and totally confused and disorganized and then.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Either by the end of the lecture, he would have pulled some rabbit out of a hat or by the end of the term, they would come to see that he, you know, had this sort of brilliant thread going all the way through.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And so I think partly it was, it just became slightly inhabitable. So he would park himself in.


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[Assistant] No, no, I mean in the alcove there was his.


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[Assistant] Well, I guess I, you know, simply came to see him as just being human. I can remember one of the first times I visited him, I was staying with John and his wife Diana at their house and


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[Assistant] Uhm, in the book I say, you know, he's a sweetheart and an asshole and he was fine with me saying that. So yeaah, I just, you know, I just got to know him on a more granular.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I think it probably ran the spectrum, you know, he, he had his moods, he could, he could be a little, you know, there was maybe


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Although he was often insecure and self-deprecating, he could also be kind of pointy-toity and, you know, maybe he didn't give everybody the attention they deserved, whether it's, you know, an interested.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now I've only got one, I used to have an office at Bell Labs, which had a lot of stuff in it and all that stuff.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] There's a pattern, yes. And there are indexes to things.


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[Assistant] Just after the war began. Whereabouts in Wales? Bumoris. Anglesey. Anglesey. And then after the war, we moved to England. My father got a job at Saunders Row in the Isle of Wight. We lived in cows for a year or two. Things were really bad, as you know, in England.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] After the war, the weather was terrible. There was food rationing. There was coal rationing. Everything was rationed. There was no, almost no food, no fruit. It was very hard to live there. And there were all these advertisements come to some of Australia.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It made a very strong impression at the time, so it's not lost. I remember.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Was from early in the morning to late at night, well, you would hear with the drilling of the dismantling the air raid shelters in the streets. Like jackhammers. Jackhammers. Yes, exactly. So smashing them all. Well, continually, that's one of my strongest memories.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Oh, my parents, my father, in particular, who really hated the cold. And it was freezing cold.


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[Assistant] The houses were not heated. It was very unpleasant. So he persuaded my mother, you could get an assisted passage to Australia if you had a relative there who would sponsor you, for ten pounds. Ten pound palm. Each, yes. And so we took the ship, the chitral.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Which broke down in the middle of the Indian Ocean. We were very low on water. The propeller shaft broke in the middle of the Indian Ocean. So we were stranded there for a week or so.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] No, but with the water, I remember the water in the water bottles was turning green. So eventually we got to Fremantle. Yeah. This is in Western Australia. Yeah. I don't think we stopped in Adelaide. I think we went straight to Melbourne.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Well, that's where we got off the ship and our relatives who lived on a farm in Gippsland, in Caligny, they, uh, came and picked us up and we lived on the farm, a dairy farm, eh, for a year, and then moved to Turulgan, Turulgan.


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[Assistant] Well, I remember the town, wonderful, wide streets, big ditches, the rains. Were you a happy boy? Was this a happy childhood? Not especially. No, I don't think so. No. Does anyone have a happy childhood? No.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Not in my experience. Then we moved to the Dandenongs, Mount Evelyn, and my father commuted into the center of Melbourne. And then we moved to Melbourne.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Especially at the high school I went to in Melbourne, Maude Alec Callum high school, it was, maybe still is.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, I liked numbers. I liked everything. It was fun. And then I got a scholarship to a, uh, one of the, uh, better schools there. And so I spent, uh, what was it? 52, 53, 54, four years at Scotch college. I went to the university in Belden.


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[Assistant] BA, ONS, but I also did a BEE simultaneously. I did a Bachelor of Electrical Engineering, so I got two degrees in five years as an undergraduate there.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] When I was in my final year in electrical engineering, I wrote to various universities in the U.S. I wrote to Harvard, applying for...


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[Assistant] Any kind of opening assistant fellowship in engineering. Harvard wrote back and said, sorry, we don't have an engineering department. So I wrote to Cornell. Cornell wrote back and said, you will offer you something or other fellowship. So I said, okay. And that was that.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And Cornell took you. Cornell took me right away. All right. Nick DeClaris. I was quite interested in circuit theory in my fourth year in the bachelor of engineering.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I got very interested in circuit analysis and circuit synthesis. Right. And since that is really very mathematical, they asked me to give some lectures about it. So this was something I was really got very interested in.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I was admitted to the master's program. So they made me do a master's degree first. So I got an, an MS there and then I went on and got a PhD and then I stayed on to teach.


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[Assistant] It was very cold. Cornell was very cold. I didn't even have an overcoat when I arrived, but they gave me a roommate, a US student who was a first year engineering, civil engineering student. And he gave me a spare overcoat.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Did you give it back? No. Are you still friends with him? Do you know who he is?


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[Assistant] It's what are called neural networks now. So you have layers and layers of


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[Assistant] Cells, neurons that fire or don't fire and they have a threshold and you adjust the thresholds and the neurons are all connected and you try to train this network to, for instance, recognize letters or recognize speech or do things.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yes, yeaah, this is still Cornell. Okay. I stayed at Cornell from 61 until 67. Right. Till the riots.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I still have in one of these notebooks here pictures from the newspapers of the time with headlines like the guns come to Cornell and there's a picture of some guys with rifles and ammunition slings.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] What was that like? Was that really scary? It was very interesting to be on the faculty at that time. I got to go to the faculty meetings.


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[Assistant] However many there were, 5000, 15,000 faculty would be in the, the arsenal, the, the military building, the biggest building on campus. And what were they saying? Discussing how to react to the students' demands. Should we resist or should we capitulate?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Were you part of that discussion or were you too junior? I was too junior to raise my hand even.


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[Assistant] Yeah, there was some big, powerful, famous, many famous people.


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[Assistant] So after the work, after I got my PhD, I got involved in error correcting codes, which again is very mathematical, extremely mathematical. So that appealed to me a lot. It's very algebraic.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yes. Yeah. And it was a subject that the electrical engineering department was very interested in. Yeah. So they asked me to give a course and I used the manuscript notes from a person at Bell Labs, Elwyn Berlecamp.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Who would come to Cornell from time to time, they, many of the, I can't call them faculty, but many of the Bell Labs math department members would travel around to universities to give talks and recruit.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I interacted with him. I sent him, he offered a dollar for every error in the manuscript, his coding. So I sent him a lot and I went and worked there for a summer, summer of 67, I think.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And, um, we did some good stuff together. So during the next year, I told him when he visited Cornell that I was wondering what to do. And he said, well, you could come and work Bell Labs.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] There were a lot of very good people, very smart people. Yes. Not just in the mathematics and statistics department, but he went up three or four flights and there were all the computing experts. The Unix room, Ken Thompson up on the sixth floor.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yes, and occasionally people would come around from other departments, you know, and we always had the tradition of open doors, so.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Someone would stick their head in the door and say, here's a nice problem. Do you know anyone who might be interested? Say, well, you know, you could try so-and-so down the hall. Okay.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It's very nice when you're asked to solve a problem that's come up in someone else's department related to


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You know, the telephone business. You're mainly doing error correcting still at this point. That's still your, your thing. I was involved in several other projects too, but uhm, certainly error correction. I was writing a book with Jesse McWilliams.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] She had already started it or had the idea for it, but it changed a bit as we worked on it and it grew also in size considerably.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That was very nice. Everybody was called an MTS. A member of technical staff.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] From the president all the way down, everyone there, well, everyone except for the staff, but all the PhDs there, and there were a lot of them, they were just called members of technical staff. And the idea was you would work on anything.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I was still involved in many different projects. There was the work on Gosset, on the computer program that I worked on with Ron Hardin.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And you don't know how much of the different kinds of fertilizer to use and how much water. One of the nice applications we did was to designing printed circuits, to actually physically manufacturing printed circuits.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And they had recently gotten a new machine, a new 10 million dollar etching machine, which replaced the old one. It was much more sophisticated. There were a lot of settings. There were six or eight variables you could control. And...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And measure the output and see which cooking temperature gives you the biggest output. But in fact, all the variables are related. It's a complicated mathematical relationship, which no one understands. So what you do is you make a series of tests. You set the cooking temperature at X.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And you choose one of the two solvents that you could use and you change the baking time to something.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It's a six dimensional space in this case, and you're searching around in the six dimensional space to try to find the sweet spot, which gives you the best etchings. You're taking a piece of glass and cutting.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Absolutely, you can. Yes, but you're in a six dimensional space and you don't know. So what they did was they used the parameters that worked for the old machine, but the results weren't very good.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And they were desperate. They would change this.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Didn't have much of an effect. They would change that. So in the end, they came over to the statistics department and talked to the experts. This is a subject called design of experiments. And Ron Hardin and I had a program that we called Gosset that would solve this problem.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You would tell it what the ranges of the variables were, how many experiments you wanted to make, how many test runs, and you wanted to keep that small.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] 15 measurements and the space is defined by the temperature can be between this and that and so on and so on. We would give you a set of 15 points to make the measurements. And the idea is you make those measurements and then you figure out from that what the most likely, the best point


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So that was one of the things I did, and this was a program, it's still in use, because it, Ron Hardin, still is, absolutely brilliant programmer, one of the best, ever.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] One of the things, um, in my thesis was try to understand various properties of these neural networks. Your thesis at Cornell? The thesis at Cornell, which, which is this book here. Got it in my hand.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yes, it's online. You can find it. It's on the archive. Okay. A R C H I V E. We'll link to it. Not the A R X I V pre print server, but the internet archive, the people who run the way back machine where you recover lost web pages. Okay. You also have a vast library of manuscripts and


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So one of the problems that came up, in fact, the first problem I started to look at was if you design a random neural network and you started, you excite some of the neurons, make them fire and watch what happens. Does the activity die out or does it keep going?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Do the calculations that are going on in this network, do they continue?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So I started looking at some very simple questions of this nature and I started looking at trees, graphs, networks that didn't have any, any loops.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So a very simple question was, if you pick a tree at random, the kind of graph that's called a tree.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Not a tree with leaves, no, just a network with points and lines and no loops. And if you pick a point and these trees are rooted, they have a base, they're rooted in the ground. So if you start it.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Pick a node at random. Very simple question. Pick a tree with six nodes and we know how many there are. There are six.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Make that node fire downwards towards the root. How long will it take to reach the root at which point the activity dies? Very simple question. It turned out to be very complicated. It's even hard to work out what the numbers are.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The first sequence in a sense, 1, 8, 78, 944, 13,800. Except I didn't have the 13,800 to begin with. I tried to just figure it out from the first few terms. It wasn't enough. So with a lot of effort, a lot of computing time and the Burroughs machine.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And I would like to know, is there a formula? Is there a recurrence? And the main thing is, how fast does it grow?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And you could see that it was growing, but whether it was growing upwards like this, or growing upwards like that, it wasn't clear. I didn't have enough terms to be able to figure out what the average value was doing.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So I thought it would be very nice if I could find the sequence in some book. So I looked through


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The obvious books. And at that time, there were not very many books about combinatorics and discrete mathematics.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And I put them into a certain obvious order and collected them. And then I looked also in a couple of other canonical books, Bromovitz and Steggans, the National Bureau of Standards handbook.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Of mathematics had a lot of sequences. Okay. And there was Fletcher, Miller, Rosenhead and Comrey's index to mathematical tables. And there were a couple of other books. So I went through these books and collected those sequences.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And other people said, oh, that's a really great idea.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Richard Guy, for example, who is still a contributor.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Which sequences would be needed? It was not clear whether one needed sequences from number theory.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Like Euler's totient function, how many numbers less than or equal to n are relatively prime to n. That kind of thing. Very basic number theoretic sequences. The number of divisors of a number. These might well have been relevant.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Right. And important. And obviously if one's collecting sequences, you have to have powers of two because you know, if you've got a process that doubles as a prime number.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, so it was hard to say this sequence will never be useful. So I was inclusive.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It wasn't quite as clear cut as that, but it was obviously a useful thing to have. Many people said, boy, that's a great idea. I wonder why nobody has ever done this before. Nobody had done it before, and no one has done it since.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Well, in a way, the world of combinatorics was a lot smaller in those days. There were a lot of people working in graph theory.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Blue binders of correspondence and things and preprints. People would send me, you know, preprints of papers before they were published or off prints after they were published or just postcards saying, here's a sequence, or email letters from all over the world.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] More and more and every paper or letter would contribute a sequence or two and I would make a punched card or two for them. Usually there'd be a card for the numbers and a card for the description.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yes and no. The sequence I was really interested in, the first of the many, I never did find out, I never did guess a formula, but I wrote to John Riddon, who was at Bell Labs.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And I said, uhm, have you ever seen this? And he wrote back and said, a wonderful thing. He said, the way to solve this kind of question is to use Polia's theory of enumeration. Polia's counting theory. Here's actually what you do.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And we wrote a joint paper. That was, I forget when it came out, late 70s.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Oh yes, so uhm, publishers would also come around to the universities talking to the faculty and saying, you know, do you have a book we could publish? Do you have a manuscript you want published? So someone from academic press came around and said, uh, was, was,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] For a book that might sell. Yes. Yes. And so academic press. Yeah. Yeah. Published Ed Beschlur.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yes. Yeah, that's great. Yeah. Can you get a couple of letters saying that it's interesting? Of course, that was no problem.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] As a reference work, it was called a handbook of integer sequences before it was published.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Oh yes. Yeah, sure. It was circulated. I sent it to DH Lamar.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] At the University of California in Berkeley and he sent some sequences. Frank Harari, big author of the big book on graph theory.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So besides Claude Beige in Paris, who had a wonderful book.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, that's not no, no, there were a few of them, but mostly it was people who had the sequences already calling, sending them in to get them into the.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Into the database. So, up to 1973, I was still collecting. And then that book came out. Was it successful? Very successful.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Martin Gardner wrote a very nice review in Scientific American.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And then of course, once the book came out, people really started sending in more things and that rapidly got out of hand. And also I had just started working Bell Labs. And so this in a way was not a big thing. What percentage of your time?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And after a while, when the computer science evolved, I could do it from home because of, uh, there were teletype machines that you could work from home. That made a big difference. I didn't have to go up to the sixth floor at Bell Labs and get sandwiches in the evening. I could work from home.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] More steps because there were a lot of letters. I calculated there was about a cubic meter of letters that had.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I've accumulated over the years and I kept, I made some supplements to the first book and they were sent them out, circulated them to a few people, you know, maybe 50 or 100 people saw the supplements, but I didn't have the time to make a new book.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Until, in the early 1990s, Simon Plouffe, who was at UCWAM, the University of Quebec, Montreal, in Montreal,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Canada, he did his thesis on looking for formulas for sequences in the database. And he had a three or 400 further sequences.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] All the parts of mathematics, there were lots of illustrations, illustrating for instance the number of ways to have a necklace with N beads.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Each of which could be red or blue. Right. You could have red, red, blue, blue, or you could have red, blue, red, blue. And if you turned it over, that didn't make a difference. So how many necklaces are there? Again, that's polias. Counting theory tells you the answer to that.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Your scientific American type, people who listen to number file, for example, the people who like numbers, everybody likes playing around with numbers, guessing the next term of a sequence.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But it's not a mathematical resource. It's not like an academic. Yes it is. The academics used it too. Right. If you're working on a problem in graph theory and you come across a sequence that goes 1, 2, 17, 93.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Because we waited, there were 5,000 roughly in the 1995 book. We waited until it had doubled in size and we put it on the internet.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Okay. No one could object to that. It was a totally different ball game by then. Okay. And it's been growing ever since. It grows at about 15,000 a year. Still, it's been pretty flat. We're up to 320,000 sequences now.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] When they look up a sequence and they find it's there, usually they're very happy because they don't have to think about it. The thinking's been done, and very often they'll find the formula they were looking for, and that's basically what they want.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You wanna know, is this a really hard problem, like the Riemann Hypothesis, or the 3x plus 1 problem, in which case I shouldn't waste time trying to solve it, or if maybe it's a very simple


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Sequence in the end like the Catalan numbers or something else has been as well studied. So that's always good information one way or the other. If it is there and it's one you were very.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] From the one in the database, in which case you should send it in and say, look, this is also the number of ways to design something or other with six legs.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] If you look up the sequence and it's not there, well that's good news and bad news. It means, good news, it's good in the sense, probably you're doing something new.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Of course, that's not necessarily true. Many people in the world don't know about the OEIS, and have neglected, or even if they know about it, they've neglected to send in the sequence, or they've been meaning to send it in, and they haven't gotten around to it yet.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It's no longer just me. So yeaah, there came a time around 2009 when...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Things at Bell Labs, it was AT&T Bell Labs, things were changing and it was clear the atmosphere, the research atmosphere was changing. For the worse, management was becoming more concerned with applications and making money and so on.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The labs weren't the place that they used to be, and so it became clear that I should find another home.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Ever since I joined the labs in 1968-69, AT&T, their labs have been very generous about letting me work on it and host it on my webpage on the AT&T website.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You know that online magazine? It got written up there.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And it got so many hits, it crashed the whole of AT&T Research's website. And the math department was very happy when that happened. But you know, things changed and it became clear that I needed to find a host.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] A place to, for it to live independent of the labs.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] We set up a foundation called the OAIS foundation incorporated, incorporated in New Jersey. And we transferred the intellectual property to it without making it too clear who owned it beforehand, because that was never something that I really ever thought about.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But from that point on, from 2009 on, it was owned, the intellectual property was owned by the foundation and the foundation's charter was to raise money to support the database forever.