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[Assistant] Across the tip of those fingers stretches the upper peninsula, running roughly east to west. Between them, though, right in that narrow gap between the tip of the mitten and the peninsula above it, sits an island.


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[Assistant] Jean Nicolet didn't stop there, but he made note of it on his way by. A few decades later, a Jesuit priest chose it as the perfect spot to build a mission, which he called St. Ignace. The trouble was, very few people actually lived on the island. That was by choice, too. Obviously, the Europeans weren't the first humans in the area.


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[Assistant] The Ojibwe tribe of Native Americans and their ancestors had lived there for hundreds of years, at least as far back as the 12th century. They used this small island as a gathering place for the tribes of the area, and as a burial ground for their dead leaders.


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[Assistant] They referred to the island as Mishamakanak, a word that means big turtle. It's an allusion to the larger Algonquin mythology that tells the story of the entire world being crafted on the back of a great turtle. By doing this, the Ojibwe were declaring this island to be sacred and different from the rest of their territory. It was special.


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[Assistant] But at some point around the time the Europeans arrived, the native tribes abandoned it.


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[Assistant] Those early French explorers took the island's name and shortened it. Misha Mikanak became Makanaw, and it's been called that ever since.


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[Assistant] Over the centuries that followed, the island played host to a number of new inhabitants, each with their own purpose. Through the late 17th and early 18th centuries, it served as a hub for the fur trade and then became British property following the conclusion of the French and Indian War.


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[Assistant] They were the ones to build the first fort there on the island, Fort Mackinac.


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[Assistant] It never saw action, and once the Revolutionary War was over, the British handed control of the island to the Americans.


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[Assistant] They took it back during the War of 1812, building a second fort there known as Fort George, but returned the island to the Americans just three years later. In honor of Major Andrew Holmes, who died leading the final attack on the British there, Fort George was renamed Fort Holmes. It still bears his name today.


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[Assistant] After the American Civil War, a large portion of Mackinac Island became a national park, the second in American history after Yellowstone.


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[Assistant] You see, right around the turn of the century, there was a bustling industry of horse-drawn carriages that transported tourists around the island. In 1896, sensing the threat from the newly arrived horseless carriages, otherwise known as automobiles, the carriage drivers managed to get their motorized competitors banned from the island. And it's still in effect today.


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[Assistant] While it might seem like Mackinac Island has transformed itself from an abandoned frontier camp into a safe destination for families looking for a nice getaway, all of that polish and shine hides a collection of dark shadows.


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[Assistant] Over the centuries, events have taken place there that most people would like to forget, and there's a good reason why. Wherever humans settle down, they leave their own special mark, a horrible mixture of tragedy and pain.


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[Assistant] It's easy to assume that such a small island couldn't possibly contain enough tragedy to fill the storybooks. Like I said earlier, Mackinac Island has less than four square miles of land. But that's not how darkness works. Wherever people go, the shadows seem to follow.


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[Assistant] Death has always been a part of life on Mackinac Island. From its earliest days centuries ago as a burial ground for the most revered and sacred of the Ojibwe leaders, to its time as the centerpiece of conflict between the British and the French, this tiny island has seen it all.


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[Assistant] If the stories are true, that even includes the execution of witches.


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[Assistant] The legend says that in the late 1700s, the community that grew up around the military fortifications there included at least one brothel.


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[Assistant] We don't know exactly who made the accusations, but at some point people became upset at the presence of these women. They viewed them as temptresses, luring the noble men of Mackinac Island against their will into illicit activities.


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[Assistant] True to 18th century form, seven of these women were arrested and accused of witchcraft. Then they were subjected to the same sort of trial so many others had been in the centuries before. They were each bound securely to a large stone and then dropped into the deep waters of a lagoon on the southeastern tip of the island.


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[Assistant] If they floated, they would be executed as witches. If they drowned, well, they would still die, but with their name cleared. That somehow made it better in their eyes, despite the complete lack of common sense. Regardless, all seven women were said to have perished that day, giving the locals a new name for their lagoon.


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[Assistant] Even today, it's still referred to as the drowning pool.


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[Assistant] In 1860, the Post Hospital was built on the island to treat the soldiers stationed there.


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[Assistant] While a lot of the care was focused on the typical things you might expect to find in any hospital, there were also records of deadly outbreaks of disease like typhoid fever and tuberculosis. And the suffering wasn't limited to the soldiers either. Their families often found themselves needing the same medical


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[Assistant] And records show that death didn't discriminate between any of them.


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[Assistant] Most of the suffering to take place on the island, however, seems to have involved the two separate military bases. In Fort Mackinac, the older of the two forts, there's a legend about the death of at least one prisoner in a dungeon referred to as the Black Hole.


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[Assistant] A murder took place in 1828 in the Fort's mess hall when a private named James Brown shot another man in the heat of an argument.


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[Assistant] Brown claimed it was an accident all the way to the gallows, but in the end, he was hanged for the crime. The only hanging on record on Mackinac Island.


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[Assistant] A year later, an incident occurred that left its own mark on Fort Mackinac. A dozen or so soldiers had gathered outside on Christmas night when their commanding officer, Lieutenant Ephraim Smith, discovered one of the men had brought alcohol into the fort.


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[Assistant] Known for his quick temper and taste for violence, Smith proceeded to beat the young soldier in front of the others.


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[Assistant] Now, maybe it was the Christmas spirit, or perhaps they had just reached their limits of patience with Smith.


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[Assistant] Whatever the reason, all of the other men jumped to Brown's defense, pulling him away and then giving Smith a taste of his own violent ways. When another officer arrived to help, Smith ran away like a coward, and then made a list of all the men who had attacked him.


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[Assistant] He managed to have six of the men sentenced to hard labor for their actions. Others though, he tracked down one by one, delivering severe beatings to them in retribution. As a result, Smith was court-martialed and discharged.


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[Assistant] One final tale from Mackinac's history might just be the most powerful example of darkness contained in a small space.


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[Assistant] In 1823, a reverend named William Ferry arrived on the island with his wife Amanda.


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[Assistant] They came with a mission, to care for the growing population of orphaned children that seemed to have slipped through the cracks of society there. Most of them were of mixed descent, with European and Native American parents, which somehow made them undesirable to the community.


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[Assistant] So Reverend Ferry built a boarding school called the Mission House and brought as many of these orphan children as he could under his roof.


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[Assistant] A few years later, though, an outbreak of tuberculosis put the school in a panic. Back then, they still didn't know how to properly care for those who had contracted the disease, so the most common solution was simply to isolate them.


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[Assistant] According to the story, Reverend Ferry and his wife locked dozens of children in the dark, damp basement. Maybe he was hoping they would get better, but he was more than likely just trying to save the ones who were not yet sick.


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[Assistant] As a result, many of the isolated children died there. Perhaps it was the rumors of this tragedy, or the pain of knowing he played a pivotal role in the deaths of so many children.


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[Assistant] In fact, the buildings on Mackinac Island with the darkest stories turn out to be the most difficult to avoid.


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[Assistant] You see, every year, hundreds of thousands of tourists flock to the island for a chance to get away.


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[Assistant] They bring their children, their luggage, and their walking shoes and then stay at one of the island's many resorts or hotels. They aren't alone though.


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[Assistant] Because that dark past is right there, waiting for them. The shadows might have checked in a long time ago, but they've never really checked out.


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[Assistant] It's a tale almost as old as time. A building or location plays host to so much tragedy and suffering that for centuries afterwards, people who visit that location claim to experience echoes of the past.


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[Assistant] Some people see or hear things, while others just sort of have a feeling about it, as if they aren't alone, even when they are. But that's the trouble with Mackinac Island.


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[Assistant] So much bad stuff has happened there that it's almost impossible to find a building there that doesn't have a story or two to tell. Take the drowning pool, for example.


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[Assistant] Visitors there have seen shadows drift up from the water, while others have heard the sound of large stones being dropped in.


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[Assistant] Stones, perhaps. Like the ones used to weigh down a witch.


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[Assistant] Fort Mackinac has become a popular tourist destination, but visitors there have seen much more than historical exhibits and guided tours of the old building.


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[Assistant] Down in the old dungeon, people stopping by the black hole have reported cold spots and unusual balls of light. On the nearby rifle range, the ghost of Private James Brown has been seen by multiple people. How they know it's him though, I'm really not sure.


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[Assistant] Like I mentioned earlier though, it's in the most public places that the majority of these experiences have taken place. In the places where visitors feel the most safe. Where they let down their guard. Right in the very same buildings they unpack, settle in, and spend the night.


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[Assistant] Mackinac Island has a lot of hotels and inns, and inside them are just as many unusual stories.


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[Assistant] One of the popular places to stay is called the Inn at Stonecliff. It's one of those picturesque buildings at the top of the cliffs overlooking the water. And because of the view, it tends to be a popular wedding destination. But visitors there have seen more than formal attire and flower arrangements.


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[Assistant] Local legend says that long ago, a woman traveled to the island to marry her true love, one of the British soldiers stationed there.


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[Assistant] Sadly, he's said to have tragically died before their wedding day, and now her ghost wanders around the inn at Stonecliff, doing her best to disrupt the joyful celebrations there.


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[Assistant] The three-story Pine Cottage is a large bed and breakfast that plays host to its own dark story in the form of a brutal murder that took place there in the 1940s.


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[Assistant] Two decades later, the building was purchased by a man named Bob Huey, and from the very beginning of his time there, the past did its best to make itself known. Over the years that followed, he and his wife witnessed everything imaginable, from a floating, disembodied torso, to shadowy figures that would stand over their bed at night.


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[Assistant] But if you ask around the island, most of the locals will point you to one place in particular that is renowned for its unexplainable activity. The Grand Hotel.


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[Assistant] It's a massive structure deserving of that name, with the longest front porch in the world at nearly 700 feet and close to 400 guest rooms. There's a theater, a tea garden, and casino there.


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[Assistant] Notable guests at the Grand Hotel over the years have included five US presidents, one Russian dictator, countless entertainment stars, and even the well-traveled author Mark Twain. Thomas Edison also stayed there, and it was outside on the massive front porch of the hotel that the first public demonstration of his phonograph took place. Like I said, this place is grand.


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[Assistant] There are darker stories. One legend says that during the construction of the hotel in 1886, workers digging the foundation uncovered a number of Native American burial sites. But rather than move the remains to a new location, the builders simply poured concrete over the graves and moved on.


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[Assistant] It's a mistake that, according to some, invited more than just guests to the hotel.


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[Assistant] Visitors have frequently reported seeing a woman in the area used by staff as a living space. She's always dressed in clothing from the late 1800s, and while she sometimes has interactions with the employees, no one has ever felt threatened by her.


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[Assistant] Others have claimed to see a man in a top hat in the bar on the second floor. He's always spotted beside the piano, but after a second glance, he vanishes, leaving behind the distinct smell of his cigar.


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[Assistant] The most frightening story though, took place in the hotel's theater.


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[Assistant] Years ago, two employees of the hotel were alone on the stage one night, most likely cleaning up after a performance or event of some kind. But with all of the guests finally off to their rooms, the vibrant energy of the theater had been replaced with silence.


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[Assistant] The two men were working beside each other when one of them was overcome with the feeling of being watched.


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[Assistant] Glancing up, he looked toward the back of the stage and noticed something odd.


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[Assistant] There were shadows everywhere, as you might expect for a theater at night. But hidden among them was something else. I've seen it described as a black mass, as if a dark cloud had gathered together into one specific spot. And at the center of this shadowy form, the man reported there were two red eyes.


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[Assistant] He froze. His mind tried to process what his eyes were seeing looking for some logical explanation that would wash away the fear that was quickly creeping over him.


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[Assistant] But before he could rationalize away the dark shape and glowing red eyes, the mysterious form began to move toward him.


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[Assistant] A moment later it collided with him, knocking him backwards off the stage to the main floor below. According to the story


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[Assistant] Mackinac Island is one of those places that defies logic. At first blush, it seems like nothing more than a tiny island far up north between Michigan's two separate peninsulas. Almost out of the way and forgettable. On the other hand though, so much has happened there to keep it alive and active, and not all of it has been positive.


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[Assistant] Everywhere you go on the island, it seems there's something else beneath the surface. Sure, the hotels and tourist attractions are nice, and the absence of automobiles lends a sort of old world charm to the place, but you can't help notice the shadows, too.


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[Assistant] It's almost as if the modern version of Mackinac is nothing more than a shiny veneer that hides a rotten foundation.


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[Assistant] From the darkest corners of Fort Mackinac to the bright halls of the Grand Hotel, countless visitors each year have seen the cracks in that pretty facade. Whether or not you believe in ghosts, Mackinac Island is haunted by the past. That includes the places that are off limits to tourists.


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[Assistant] Remember the old mission house? That boarding school for Native American children I mentioned a while ago? After changing hands and functions a number of times over the years, the mission house now acts as a dormitory for the seasonal workers who take care of Mackinac State Park, which means it's off limits to most people.


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[Assistant] That doesn't mean there isn't darkness there. It's just that you and I will probably never experience it for ourselves. But of course, stories have a way of leaking out, don't they?


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[Assistant] It's said that many of the people who have stayed there over the years have seen dark shapes moving through the halls of the lower levels. It's the sort of thing that's usually caught in the corners of your peripheral vision, just out of reach. Whenever people have tried to get a better look at them though, they vanish into the walls.


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[Assistant] Others have heard the sounds of distant footsteps and creaking floorboards, objects being dropped in the rooms above them, and the occasional sound of strange voices from empty parts of the building. Alarm clocks have a tendency to go off on their own at times no one was expecting.


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[Assistant] Despite the multitude of reports that would seem to hint at something nefarious and evil, the unusual activity in the mission house seems to have been limited to things we might think of as pranks.


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[Assistant] This episode of Lore was written and produced by me, Aaron Manke, with research help from Marsette Crockett and music by Chad Lawson.


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[Assistant] I make another podcast called Aaron Manke's Cabinet of Curiosities and I think you'd enjoy it. It's a twice weekly podcast that explores some of the most bizarre events, objects, and people in history.


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[Assistant] Each episode is a bite-sized collection of two short tales that show you just how unexplainable our world really is. Learn more about it over at CuriositiesPodcast.com.


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[Assistant] Lore exists outside this podcast as well. There's a book series in bookstores around the country and online and the Amazon Prime television show is out there for Prime members. Check them out if you want more lore in your life.


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[Assistant] And you can always learn more about everything going on over in one central place, theworldoflore.com slash now.


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[Assistant] And finally, you can follow the show on Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram. Just search for Lore Podcast, all one word, and click that follow button. When you do, say hi. I like it when people say hi.


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[Assistant] In the middle ages, most people would go their entire life without ever experiencing surgery.


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[Assistant] Today we live in the age of preventative medical procedures and things like cosmetic surgery. But 600 years ago, no one ever thought of going under the knife without a very good reason. Why?


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[Assistant] Because it was difficult to manage the pain. Anesthetics were incredibly primitive in the early days of the Middle Ages. No, people didn't undergo invasive procedures without pain relief completely. The options available were limited and, well, potentially deadly.


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[Assistant] In England, a common method for pain relief was a potion called Dwalla, which the patient drank prior to surgery. Dwalla was a solution of wine mixed with a number of other ingredients.


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[Assistant] Some were pretty mild, like lettuce and boar bile. But the recipe also called for hemlock and balladonna, both known to be highly poisonous.


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[Assistant] Everyone wanted Dwalla for their pain. But it was always a gamble. If it was prepared correctly, it worked.


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[Assistant] If it wasn't though, if you used a flawed recipe or bought your potion from a less savory individual,


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[Assistant] You ran the risk of horrible pain. Even death.


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[Assistant] Sometimes the most honorable goals can lead to horrible results. As the old cliche says, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.


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[Assistant] It's a powerful glimpse into the core of the human mind. We're really good at breaking the things that we try to fix.


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[Assistant] And in no other profession has that been more true than the early days of the mental health field.


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[Assistant] While there might not have been bottles of Dwalla laying around, the early practitioners of mental health had their own fair share of misguided intentions and flawed recipes. They tried to help.


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[Assistant] But in the end, they did more harm than good. And while most of the people who suffered through that pain are long gone, the after effects remain. And the stories they tell are horrifying.


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[Assistant] The early decades of the 19th century were filled with reform movements. Abolitionism, education, women's rights, and voters' rights all featured prominently in the early 1800s. American culture was maturing, becoming more aware of who it was and what its flaws were.


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[Assistant] As it did, champions rose up to move those issues forward. Leaders like Sojourner Truth, Elizabeth Cady Stanton, Susan B. Anthony. These were progressive women, persistent women. We wouldn't have the culture we have today without them. And right there beside them all was Dorothea Dix.


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[Assistant] Dorothea's area of passion was for the mentally ill. Inspired by the lunacy reform movement in England, Dorothea Dix threw herself into an investigation of American methods for mental health care. And what she found was appalling.


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[Assistant] Many who suffered from mental illness were kept in cages or stalls. They were often restrained with chains and beaten into submission. The sick were treated as prisoners, not patients, and that needed to change.


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[Assistant] Through the 1840s, she pushed state after state to do better, calling for humane treatment and housing. And that resulted in a new crop of facilities specifically designed to care for the mentally ill.


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[Assistant] Building a better home for these patients required a fresh approach, and the man who helped with that was Dr. Thomas Kirkbride.


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[Assistant] Although he was a physician, Kirkbride's passion for mental health care led to a whole new architectural style. Buildings shouldn't be large square structures. They should stretch out and provide as much sunlight and fresh air as possible. And yes, we know his name from his work on the Danvers State Hospital, but he actually started much earlier.


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[Assistant] Two decades before Danvers, in the mid-1850s, Kirk Ryde was consulting on a similar project in Weston, Virginia. It would be a modern, conscious approach to caring for the mentally ill, where people would be patients, not prisoners, and they would call it the Trans-Allegheny Lunatic Asylum.


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[Assistant] After some hiccups caused by the outbreak of the American Civil War, the facility opened its doors in October of 1864.


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[Assistant] By then though, Weston was a city in the newly minted state of West Virginia, and so the asylum was named the West Virginia Hospital for the Insane. New building, new name. It was like a beacon fire had been ignited, and people flocked to it from far and wide.


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[Assistant] Like a lot of the early mental health facilities in America, the West Virginia Hospital was built on a foundation of naivete and hope. It was only designed to hold about 250 patients at the time, which should have been enough. But as we all know, expectations are meant to be broken, right?


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[Assistant] As you can imagine, things quickly got out of hand.


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[Assistant] See, the problem was the mid-19th century view of mental illness.


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[Assistant] It was a massive catch-all category. So patients suffering from all manner of disorders were sent there. And I'm using large exaggerated air quotes when I say disorders because, well, just listen to some of these. You could be committed to the asylum for superstition.


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[Assistant] For sexual deviance, for deserting your husband, or having fits of anger, or being lazy. Women were routinely admitted because of what they called menstrual derangement.


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[Assistant] It's well beyond the limits of irony, isn't it? In the pursuit of caring for the insane, the caretakers, well, they were crazy.


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[Assistant] Within 16 years, the facility was carrying for over 700 patients in a space designed for 250. So new wings were added to the original structure.


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[Assistant] One was devoted solely to the elderly and those suffering from dementia. Another was set up for tuberculosis patients, giving them plenty of fresh air and sunlight. And, of course, isolation from the rest of the patients.


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[Assistant] Other facilities were built nearby on the same property. Things like a large home for patients who the courts declared to be criminally insane. They even built their own morgue, but because many of the patients would become upset when they saw a hearse pull up at the front door, they built a new entrance on the backside of the building, away from prying eyes.


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[Assistant] The hospital grew from 700 to 1600 patients by the 1930s. A decade later, there were 1800 people there, and by the early 50s, it was 2600. The Westin Virginia Hospital for the Insane was growing like a weed.


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[Assistant] But inside such a cramped facility, all of that growth was beginning to choke off the lives they were trying to save.


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[Assistant] It was a time bomb, quietly ticking away behind a hauntingly beautiful gothic revival facade. And that bomb was about to explode.


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[Assistant] If you grab a tomato and squeeze it slowly, the insides will eventually start to leak out. And that's what began to happen at the Westin State Hospital, as it was called in the late 40s. Reports of overcrowding began to spread, and people were alarmed by what they heard.


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[Assistant] In January of 1949, a newspaper in Charleston, West Virginia, The Gazette, ran an investigative series on the facility. What it discovered was absolutely horrifying. One reporter described how disabled children were left naked and alone, chained to their chairs for hours.


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[Assistant] When he visited, there was a portion of the cafeteria ceiling that had begun to collapse in on itself because of a septic problem with the toilets on the floor above. Rather than fix it, they had simply propped up the collapse with spare lumber in the room where the patients ate their meals.


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[Assistant] Some of the rooms were so crowded with beds that you couldn't access the floor or run a hand between the mattresses. Another report noted how poorly the facility was heated in the winter and how little light there was. And darkness, as we all know, can be a breeding ground for terrible things.


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[Assistant] Looking back, some historians and mental health professionals blame the conditions on how poorly the staff had been treated.


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[Assistant] They worked incredibly long hours for very little money, which contributed to a high turnover rate. And it's hard to offer consistency in quality and care when the people managing the patients are constantly changing faces and levels of experience.


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[Assistant] So with limited, unskilled staff, and very few resources to make it better, the facility did the only thing they could. They tightened their grip.


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[Assistant] Patients rarely had contact with the outside world. Even letters in and out were prohibited. Once you stepped through the doors of the Westin State Hospital, you would never see the outside world again.


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[Assistant] One effort to control the patients came in the form of the lobotomy. The man who pioneered the transorbital lobotomy, Dr. Walter Freeman, spent a good amount of his time in Weston, traveling there in his van, which he lovingly referred to as the lobotomobile.


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[Assistant] Conservative estimates place the number of lobotomies performed there by Dr. Freeman at around 70, while others go as high as a few hundred.


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[Assistant] And with each one, the goal was the same. Subdue the patient. To physically sever the portion of the brain that controlled their psychotic behavior, cutting it off from the rest of their mind. According to one historian, only one third of these procedures were effective, which left a lot of patients physically disabled, or worse yet, dead.


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[Assistant] But it was clear why they were trying, however desperate those attempts had become. Some of the patients were horribly violent. Once, a nurse went missing during her work shift and the administration just assumed that she'd quit in frustration and gone home without telling anyone.


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[Assistant] Her body was found two months later, lying under an unused staircase.


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[Assistant] Much of the violence was due to the mixing of patients. Children were kept in the same place as adults. Patients with a history of violent behavior lived on wards with other, more vulnerable people. Physical assault, rape and murder were common occurrences because of all of this.


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[Assistant] One powerful story tells of three men who shared one bedroom. One of the men reportedly snored, which bothered the other two. So one night, they dragged the snoring man out of bed, pulled his sheets off, and tied them into a noose. Then, they hanged the noisy roommate from a pipe overhead in an effort to silence him. It didn't work though.


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[Assistant] When they untied him, he fell to the floor and began to struggle to get up.


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[Assistant] So the others lifted the man's bed and placed one of the bed posts on his head. And then they jumped on it. When they were asked later about what happened, one of the men responded with a simple answer. The ghosts did it. The hospital had come full circle.


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[Assistant] Created as a solution to the horrible conditions found by Dorothea Dix over a century before, it had somehow become just as dark and just as horrifying as it was back then.


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[Assistant] There were efforts to fix it, to right the ship and save the mission, but it was too little, too late. The damage had already been done.


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[Assistant] The hospital's doors finally shut for good in 1994.


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[Assistant] Like the patients who once lived there, the Westin State Hospital was abandoned to the ravages of time, a shell of its former self. But the story wasn't over yet.


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[Assistant] Like a lot of abandoned buildings, the old hospital became the centerpiece of a number of new schemes. The governor of West Virginia in the mid-90s wanted to convert the facility into a prison, which speaks volumes about the perception of the place. When the most logical use for an old mental hospital is a place to lock up criminals, well, it's revealing.


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[Assistant] Over a decade later, in 2007, the facility came under new ownership, and the name was changed back to the original Trans-Allegheny Lunatic Asylum.


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[Assistant] As a whole, the old hospital is a massive complex of ancient buildings. But portions of it have been opened up to the public for historic tours. Which, as you can imagine, drives a good number of people through those old hallways.


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[Assistant] Hallways that have seen the worst of human behavior.


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[Assistant] And that's a lot of watchful eyes. So it's no surprise to learn that visitors have seen things, things that are difficult to explain, things that leave a chill in the air. As the old saying goes, if walls could talk, right?


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[Assistant] And if you believe the stories, the walls of Weston State Hospital, do much more than talk.


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[Assistant] The morgue building, that separate structure near the main complex where dead patients were examined and prepared for burial, that's one of the main places that has sparked tales.


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[Assistant] Visitors there have seen shadows move in and out the back entrance, as well as in the larger exam room.


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[Assistant] Most of the shadows seem to be centered around the large wall of metal racks used to hold bodies. The witnesses have said that these shadows are unnaturally large and invoke a deep feeling of sadness and oppression.


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[Assistant] Inside the main building, though, is where the experiences have been the most unnerving. After serving strictly as the female ward of the hospital, Ward F transitioned in the early 1900s to the home of the most violent of Weston's patients.


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[Assistant] Later, patients disabled by lobotomies were also moved here.


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[Assistant] Visitors have seen more of the same shadow figures, sometimes appearing from around corners. The sounds of footsteps have often been heard there, as well as the distant echo of laughter and even knocking on some of the doors.


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[Assistant] Speaking of doors, there is apparently a set of doors on the top floor of the hospital that have behaved in a rather unusual way. That's the area that began life as an on-site residence for some of the staff before transitioning into a ward for drug and alcohol recovery patients.


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[Assistant] These doors are never locked and there's nothing blocking them on either side. But one historian reports being in the hallway one day and reaching out to try and open them. She gripped the handle of one of the doors and tugged, but nothing happened. She tried the other and got the same result. So she pulled harder.


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[Assistant] That's when something on the other side pounded on the door, rattling it to the frame.


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[Assistant] Whatever was waiting on the other side of that doorway, it didn't want anyone coming through.


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[Assistant] Ward number four is home to a particularly chilling story.


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[Assistant] One tour guide reported coming into work early one morning, only to discover wet footprints in the hallway there. Wet human prints. One set was apparently adult sized, while the other was smaller, like a child's.


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[Assistant] The tour guide followed the prince down the hall until they ended at a chair, where it seemed as if they turned around and took a seat.


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[Assistant] They faded away a short time later, of course, because that's what water does. But according to some of the tour guides, if the weather is damp enough outside, those prints mysteriously reappear.


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[Assistant] The most popular story, however, involves a particular room in ward R, up on the fourth floor.


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[Assistant] There are a number of slightly different versions of the story, but the core legend is that a female patient was admitted long ago while in the middle of her pregnancy. When the child was born, a daughter in fact, that child remained in the hospital where she was raised by the staff and other patients.


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[Assistant] This little girl, called Lily by some of the people who tell her tale, was said to have died at the age of nine from pneumonia. And while her body was most likely taken across the yard to the morgue, her spirit is rumored to have remained behind, trapped in death, just as she'd been in life, within the walls of Weston.


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[Assistant] Her room is still there, too. Or at least, that's what visitors believe. There is a room. Its walls, once a calming shade of pale green, are peeling and spotty now. And those who have stepped inside have reported incredibly odd experiences.


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[Assistant] The feeling of a child reaching out and holding their hand. The faint sound of giggling. Objects that move on their own and scattered all across the filthy tile floor are tributes left for Lily by her many visitors. Dozens and dozens of toys.


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[Assistant] The world of mental health has come a long way since the days of Dorothea Dix and her reform mission. True, there are those who still put an unnecessary stigma on mental illness, while others simply ignore it, as if it doesn't exist at all.


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[Assistant] But for the most part, it's viewed today as a legitimate struggle for millions of people around the world, and we're slowly getting better at caring for them.


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[Assistant] Buildings like the old trans-Allegheny lunatic asylum stand as a reminder of how far we've come. The chains and water tanks and surgical theaters for ice-pick lobotomies are still there, abandoned by time and enlightenment.


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[Assistant] They were brutal and inhumane when they were new, but somehow, in their decay, they've grown even more horrifying.


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[Assistant] We've all seen photos of abandoned hospitals, with rusted wheelchairs and medical implements tossed in a corner. The peeling walls, the water damage, the makeshift nests where something, maybe a human, maybe not, is taking up residence in a dark corner.


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[Assistant] These are clearly not friendly inviting places.


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[Assistant] One historian who visited Westin State Hospital claims to have had a very unusual experience. She toured the facility with a friend, walking down those long, dark hallways and peeking inside its countless rooms. There's a lot to see there, after all, and all the while, they captured their experience on a voice recorder.


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[Assistant] When she reached the room where the stories say the little girl named Lily had lived and died, she decided to have a snack and pulled a box of crackers from her bag.


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[Assistant] After setting it down on the floor, she wrote some notes down in her notebook and then stopped. Her box of crackers was moving. In fact, she claimed that it was actually levitating. It moved through the air a foot or two and then returned back to where it had been.


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[Assistant] A moment later, she heard the distinct, unmistakable sound of crunching.


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[Assistant] As you might imagine, it was an unsettling experience and she left feeling oddly disturbed.


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[Assistant] Later, after returning home, she began to listen back to the audio recordings of her experience there at the hospital.


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[Assistant] After listening for a while, she finally came to the portion of the recording that took place in Lily's room.


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[Assistant] She heard herself set her bag down and the noise from the box of crackers being taken out and opened.


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[Assistant] To her surprise she also heard the crunching that she assumed she had imagined.


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[Assistant] But for as soft as it sounded she could clearly make out the words the voice spoke. Someone.


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[Assistant] This episode of Lore was written and produced by me, Aaron Manke. Research assistance was provided by the talented Marsat Crockett.


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[Assistant] The lore is a lot more than just bi-weekly audio stories. There's the West Coast Tour kicking off on June 14th in San Francisco. There are extra mini episodes available to Patreon supporters. There's a companion newsletter for each new episode called the Epitaph.


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[Assistant] Where you can get exclusive updates on the TV show production, the book series, as well as source material for the episode.


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[Assistant] And all that is found in one place, lorepodcast.com. And if you're a social media sort of person, you can follow the show on Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram. Just search for Lore Podcast, all one word, and then click the follow button. And as always, thanks for listening.


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[Assistant] Most of us have had the joy of being sick once or twice in our lives. It's part of the human experience, I suppose. We get sick and then we get better. At least that's how it's supposed to work.


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[Assistant] One thing I am constantly thankful for is the fact that we live in such a modern, enlightened age of medicine. We no longer use urine as an antiseptic, nor do we diagnose illness based on our astrological signs. But that wasn't always the case.


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[Assistant] Gone are the days of bleeding ourselves with leeches, or trying to balance our humors to make sure our sanguine fluids aren't overpowering our melancholic fluids. And I'm probably not the only one who's happy that we no longer treat sick people with enemas administered with metal syringes filled with boar bile.


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[Assistant] Our ancestors didn't know why certain things happened, but they sure did their best to try.


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[Assistant] Stories were created, myths were told, and superstitions took root. All of them were designed to explain why things happened, and these reasons, even if they were pure fabrications, somehow helped people deal with the realities of life.


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[Assistant] Why was my child born deformed? Why did my husband's personality change overnight? Why did my entire family die from a plague last winter?


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[Assistant] These questions haunted people in ways we can't understand today, and they grasped for anything that would help them cope. They found answers in their common folklore.


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[Assistant] But right there among the countless tales and stories told, there's one superstition from Ireland that saw more usage than most. You see, when something didn't seem right, when things went wrong and people suffered, there was only one explanation that covered it all in the minds of the Irish. They blamed it. On changelings.


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[Assistant] Changeling, according to the folklore of Europe, is a kind of fairy. Stories of them can be found in Germany, Ireland, England, Scandinavia, Spain, and many other countries.


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[Assistant] And in all of those cultures, changelings have the same methodology. They are a substitute for a kidnapped human being.


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[Assistant] Either out of jealousy or a great need, fairies were said to enter our world and to make a trade without our knowledge. They would leave one of their own behind and return to the fairy realm where the kidnapped human would live happy, joyful lives in paradise.


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[Assistant] We have a great summary of changelings thanks to the Irish poet William Butler Yeats.


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[Assistant] They steal children, he wrote, and leave a withered fairy, one thousand or maybe two thousand years old instead.


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[Assistant] At times, full-grown men and women have been taken. Near the village of Colony lives an old woman who was taken in her youth. When she came back at the end of seven years, she had no toes, or she had danced them all off.


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[Assistant] Change lanes, according to the legend, can actually take one of three forms. The first is the kind Yates wrote about, the senile and ancient fairy who was disguised as a child.


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[Assistant] Another type of changeling is an actual fairy child. And the third type was an inanimate object such as a block of wood or a carved log. This third type is sometimes known as a stock.


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[Assistant] The logic, at least to someone in medieval Europe, was simple. If a child was born with birth defects, was sickly or ill-tempered, they were often thought to be the fairy substitute left behind when their real child was taken from their home.


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[Assistant] If an adult went missing and was later found mysteriously dead, people would often assume that the body was really a bundle of sticks that have merely been enchanted to resemble their loved one.


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[Assistant] Folklore blossomed on the subject. Wives tales and legend taught new generations how to spot a changeling, instantly proving both one more reason to fear every little change in a person's life, but also a clear sign of safety and hope they could cling to.


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[Assistant] Even the overall well-being of a family could hinge on these creatures. Changelings, you see, were said to drain all luck away from a house. And by doing so, they would leave a family cursed to struggle with poverty and misfortune. All while trying to care for a child they saw as a curse more and more every day.


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[Assistant] When the stories focused on men and women who had been swapped out for a ferry, the symptoms were more psychological in nature. Signs of an adult changeling included mood swings, becoming argumentative, and losing interest in friends and family.


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[Assistant] Changelings were said to have enormous appetites too, eating everything they were given and then still asking for more. It was said that if your infant preferred food from the larder rather than being nursed, then there was a chance that they really weren't your child at all.


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[Assistant] While most changeling infants died in early childhood, those that survived were said to become dim-witted adults. Men and women who survived this long were sometimes called ufa, which is where we get the word oaf.


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[Assistant] Thankfully though, there were ways to test people to see if they were in fact a changeling. One method involved putting a shoe in a bowl of soup. If the baby saw this and laughed, then it was seen as proof that the child was a changeling.


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[Assistant] Another method involved making a tiny loaf of bread inside half an egg shell. Again, meant to make the fairy laugh.


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[Assistant] And once discovered, a fairy changeling could be driven from the house in a variety of ways. In which case, the kidnapped human child or adult would be returned unharmed.


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[Assistant] One trick involved holding the suspected child over a fire, while another recommended forcing the suspect to drink a tea brewed with foxglove, a poisonous flower. It was thought that as the person's body expelled the toxin through vomiting and diarrhea, the changeling would be forced to return to the fairy realm.


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[Assistant] It sounds crazy to think that people would believe such stories, even centuries ago. Surely, no one actually performed these tests or administered these treatments, especially to their own family, right?


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[Assistant] Unfortunately, history teaches us that desperate people are capable of just about anything.


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[Assistant] In July of 1826, a woman named Anne Roche from County Kerry in southwest Ireland was caring for a four-year-old boy named Michael Leahy. According to her own testimony, the boy was unable to walk, stand, or speak.


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[Assistant] Convinced that he was in fact a fairy changeling, she bathed him in icy waters three times to force the fairy out.


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[Assistant] The boy drowned, she was tried by court, and they found her not guilty.


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[Assistant] In 1845, a woman suspected of being a changeling was placed in a large basket filled with wood shavings and then hung over the kitchen fire until the contents of the basket ignited. In 1851, a man in Ireland literally roasted his child to death because he believed the boy to be a fairy.


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[Assistant] Three children were suspected of being fairies in 1857. They were bathed in a solution of foxglove and then forced to drink it.


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[Assistant] Sometimes babies were left in or near bodies of water as a way of forcing the changelings to leave. In 1869, an exorcism was attempted by dipping a child three times in a lake in Ireland. Another woman actually left her infant on the shore of a lake and walked away, expecting the fairies to come and make the swap.


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[Assistant] Thankfully, she returned later to reclaim her child.


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[Assistant] In 1884, while the mother of three-year-old Philip Dillon was out of the house, Ellen Cushion and Anastasia Rourke snuck inside. Philip, you see, could not use his arms and legs, and these neighbors saw that as proof enough of his condition.


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[Assistant] One of the neighbors stripped the boy naked while the other stoked the fire. Then, when everything was ready, they placed him on a large shovel and held it over the flames. Little Philip survived, but he was severely burned by the incident.


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[Assistant] We hate what we fear, you see. But rather than fade away as the 19th century moved on, the fears and superstitions around changelings only seemed to grow in Ireland. And as hard as it might be to believe, things were about to get worse.


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[Assistant] In the late 19th century, one of the governing bodies in Ireland was the Board of Guardians in each district. They were tasked with dispensing public aid, and one of the ways they did that was by building laborer cottages, homes built to provide housing for rural agricultural workers.


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[Assistant] Many farmers had lost their land in the recent famine, and this was one way of helping alleviate some of the homelessness and poverty that had become so common in the country.


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[Assistant] One cottage was constructed in Balevadle, a small community of just nine homes and 31 people in County Tipperary.


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[Assistant] The family who was awarded the cottage moved in, but there was a problem. It seems that the house had been built on a wrath, a low earthen ring. And while archaeologists know them to simply be remnants of an Iron Age fort, some of the Irish still thought of them as fairy rings, portals into another realm.


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[Assistant] After the family moved in, odd things began to happen. Cries in the night, noises that couldn't be identified, and a feeling of dread. Almost as soon as the tenants had moved in, they were leaving. In their stead, the cottage was given to an old retired laborer named Patrick Boland, who moved in with his adult daughter and her husband.


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[Assistant] His daughter, Bridget, was unusual. In 1895, it was the men who controlled the family. They were the breadwinner and the sole provider. But even though her husband Michael did well as a cooper, someone who makes and repairs barrels, a business that has always done well in Ireland, Bridget wasn't dependent on him.


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[Assistant] She had her own business, making dresses and keeping hens, and the income from those jobs was more than enough to meet her needs.


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[Assistant] She was also said to be clever, flirtatious, and highly independent. So you can imagine how she must have annoyed her husband and caught the ire of the neighbors. And then there were the rumors of the affair she was having with another man. Bridget Cleary was a self-made, self-possessed woman, and everyone else was bothered by that.


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[Assistant] I tell you all of that because stories have layers. There's the meaning that you glean from the initial telling, and then there's the rest of the story. The deeper you dive, the more things begin to make sense. And believe me when I tell you, there is a lot about this story that fails to make sense.


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[Assistant] On March 4th of 1895, Bridget left home on an errand. She had eggs to deliver to the house of her father's cousin, Jack Dunn. It was a short enough distance that she decided to walk, but the weather turned sour while she was out. She spent the next day in bed complaining of raging pain in her head. She had chills and shivered constantly.


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[Assistant] Dunn came by the little cottage to visit a few days later and found Bridget still in bed. He took one look at her and declared, that's not Bridget. According to him, she was a changeling. Thankfully, no one yet believed him.


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[Assistant] On March 9th, five days after Bridget's walk in the cold, her father walked four miles to the nearest doctor and asked for him to come help. Two days later, there was still no sign of the doctor, and so her husband Michael made the journey.


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[Assistant] After yet two more days of waiting, the doctors still had not come. And so Michael went again, this time making sure that he brought along a summons from the local health authority.


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[Assistant] While her husband was out looking for the doctor, the doctor arrived unexpectedly. He did his typical house call checkup, prescribed some medicine, and then left. Still frustrated, the family called upon a priest to come by and give her last rites, just in case. Things weren't looking up for Bridget Cleary.


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[Assistant] This was March 13th, a full nine days since taking ill. And so later that evening, neighbors and relatives gathered at the cottage to help administer fairy medicine in the form of herbs. Bridget refused the treatment and they held a red-hot poker in her face until she complied.


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[Assistant] Things got worse the following day. Cousin Jack Dunn had begun to spread word that Bridget had been taken by the fairies and replaced with a changeling. At his urging, a man named Dennis Ganey was called into the house. He was known in the community as a fairy doctor and well-versed in treating cases such as these.


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[Assistant] His treatments wouldn't necessarily fit into modern medical textbooks, mind you. They included the use of the hot poker, forcing the changeling to drink first milk from a cow that had just given birth, dousing the person in urine, and exposing them to flames.


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[Assistant] Bridget was slapped and held in front of the fireplace while her husband demanded that she state before God and family that she was indeed Bridget Cleary.


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[Assistant] Even though she answered yes, the gathered crowd didn't believe her.


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[Assistant] While his mother had died when he was young, his father had passed away just hours before. He and Bridget were childless and they lived in her father's house in a spare room in the 19th century equivalent of public housing. His own wife was rumored to be cheating on him and she didn't even need him to support her.


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[Assistant] The treatments continued late into the night. Friends and family began to ask to leave, but Michael was said to have yelled that no one was leaving until Bridget came home. He locked the door and placed the key in his pocket. If they could just get this right, he told them, if they could just drive the ferry out and be done with it, his Bridget would come home.


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[Assistant] Again she was asked to declare her identity, then Bridget refused.


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[Assistant] Historians don't know why. Maybe she was afraid. Perhaps her independent, stubborn nature prevented her from handing over authority.


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[Assistant] Whatever the reason, her silence infuriated Michael.


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[Assistant] He stripped her to her undergarments and pushed her to the floor.


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[Assistant] Come home, Bridget. In the name of God. Somebody was said to have cried as she lay near the fire.


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[Assistant] She's not my wife, Michael replied. You'll soon see her go off the chimney.


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[Assistant] And with that, he doused her with lamp oil and grabbed a log from the burning fireplace, which he used to ignite the flame. Bridget Cleary burned to death on the hearth of her own kitchen floor, in front of her husband and father, cousins and friends. She was just 26 years old.


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[Assistant] We haven't always known as much about the world as we do now. Compared to the centuries before our own, we live in a veritable golden age of knowledge and understanding. Science has eradicated much of the ignorance that once plagued us. And while I'm a fan of mystery and unanswered questions, that's not necessarily a bad thing.


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[Assistant] Ignorance has been used as a justification for the barbaric, inhumane treatment of other people to fuel our hatred of those who aren't like us. That kind of fear often becomes the agent of a dark transformation. Under the influence of fear, humans have a history of mutation, of changing into something grotesque and dangerous. We become monsters.


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[Assistant] Fear drove Michael Cleary and the others to kill his wife. Fear of illness and disease. Of mental and medical mysteries. Fear of the loss that seemed to be creeping ever closer to his household. And blinded by that fear, Michael Cleary lashed out with the only tool he had. Superstition.


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[Assistant] In many ways, it's beyond ironic that his fear turned him into someone else. In the end, perhaps he was the changeling.


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[Assistant] After forcing one of Bridget's cousins by knife point to help wrap her body in a sheet, they carried her to a nearby field and buried her in a shallow grave. A short time later, some of the neighbors told the local priest that Bridget Cleary had gone missing. They said, in whispered tones, that it had been a fairy exorcism.


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[Assistant] When the priest found Michael Cleary praying in the church the next day, he brought up the man's wife.


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[Assistant] Is your wife alright? The priest asked. I heard she'd been sick.


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[Assistant] He was still convinced that she would return. He had plans to visit a nearby fairy ring and wait for her. She would arrive in a white gown on a pale horse and he would cut her bindings with a blackened knife. His Bridget would come home.


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[Assistant] The priest, to his credit, didn't believe a single word. He called the police and a massive search was undertaken. On March 22nd, two constables found her body in the shallow grave her husband had dug just days before.


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[Assistant] She had been badly burned and lay in the fetal position, with her knees against her chest, arms wrapped tightly around them. Because her face had escaped the fire, a cloth sack had been placed over her head. All that remained of the little clothing she had been wearing was a pair of black stockings. Bridget Cleary would never come home.


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[Assistant] The story of Bridget Cleary is one of the most tragic to take place at the intersection of documented history and ancient folklore. In many ways, her tale is one of true crime, but it's dressed in significant and essential details that seem pulled straight out of a fantasy novel. And sadly, it's not the only one.


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[Assistant] In fact, the world of changeling's abduction and misguided belief have left us a number of painful stories. And if you stick around through this brief sponsor break, I'll share another powerful example.


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[Assistant] Mrs. Kearns was a widow, but that wasn't anything new. In fact, her husband had passed away many years before. Long enough that their only child, Mary, was now a young woman. Thankfully though, the two of them still lived in the same house.


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[Assistant] Just like Bridget Cleary, they too lived in County Tipperary, in the small village of Tumavara. Neighbors were kind, and folks seemed to support their efforts to provide for themselves. According to the newspaper article I tracked down about them, they were both busy in the needlework trade. It was a good, peaceful life. As good as one could ask for, at least.


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[Assistant] But in late February of 1834, darkness entered Mrs. Kern's life. And as she stood inside the police office, she explained to anyone who would listen how it all began. It was the strangers who had visited her two weeks before. She was sure of it. And she remembered every detail about them.


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[Assistant] When Mrs. Kearns had answered the knock at the door, she says she was greeted by a middle-aged woman with pockmarks on her reddish face, black hair, and a red coat. And before Mrs. Kearns could ask the stranger what she needed, this woman began to speak. She was a fairy woman, she told her.


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[Assistant] Not a woman who was a fairy, mind you, but a woman from the community who considered herself to be an expert in all things fairy. She knew their customs, their culture, and even the places in this world that they preferred to inhabit.


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[Assistant] She even claimed that knowledge gave her the ability to raise the dead from the grave. And this woman, who called herself Mary Mack, had a message for Mrs. Kearns.


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[Assistant] Your husband is with the fairies, she told the old widow, and I know how to bring him home.


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[Assistant] Now, Mrs. Kearns knew enough to know the stranger was lying. It was nothing more than superstition. And if her husband really was alive out there somewhere, he'd have returned a long time ago. So, she shut the door in Mary Mac's face. But even in that short encounter, a seed was planted.


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[Assistant] You see, Mrs. Kern's daughter, Mary, was in the room when the encounter took place and she overheard everything. And while she didn't speak up that day, the notion that her father was out there somewhere and could possibly come home was just too tempting to dismiss.


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[Assistant] So, when Mary Mack returned a few days later, while young Mary Kern's mother was out of the house, young Mary was a lot more willing to listen. And according to the fairy woman, there was good news.


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[Assistant] And young Mary nodded, but told the older woman that she was afraid it wasn't true, which is when one of Mary Mack's accomplices, hidden away inside a nearby bush, called out in a masculine voice, I am your father, Mary. I cannot stay today, but I will return in four days' time.


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[Assistant] Believing in fairies and the power of the stranger, she gathered up a large sum of money and then left the woman to escort her away. Presumably, they were headed to a special location. One dripping with fairy magic or otherworldly powers. And soon enough, all would be right. Except I don't have to tell you that it wasn't.


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[Assistant] When Mary's mother returned home that day, she found the house had been completely stripped of everything valuable. Apparently the fairy woman had more than one accomplice, and they made quick work of the little house once Mary left.


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[Assistant] Sadly, there's no record that Mary Kearns ever returned home. Her mother made that visit to the local police station to report the theft and the kidnapping, but despite offering a reward, the authorities came up empty handed.


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[Assistant] Ask most people today and they'll tell you what you most likely already believe. That fairies aren't real and that they can't kidnap our loved ones and leave changelings in their place. That there's no actual magic to fear. But there is something we should be afraid of. The power of belief.


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[Assistant] This episode of Lore was researched, written, and produced by me, Aaron Manke, with music by Chad Lawson.


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[Assistant] Lore is much more than just a podcast. There's a book series available in bookstores and online, and two seasons of the television show on Amazon Prime Video. Check them both out if you want more lore in your life.


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[Assistant] I also make and executive produce a whole bunch of other podcasts, all of which I think you'd enjoy. My production company Grim and Mild specializes in shows that sit at the intersection of the dark and the historical.


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[Assistant] You can learn more about all of our shows and everything else going on over in one central place, GrimAndMild.com. And you can also follow this show on Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram. Just search for Lore Podcast, all one word, and then click that follow button. And when you do, say hi. I like it when people say hi. And as always, thanks for listening.


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[Assistant] Today's episode of the Nate Land podcast is brought to you by Delete Me, Butcher, Box, Rocket, Money, and AG1.


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[Assistant] That was very scary. I'm closer to the mic than I usually am, so it feels very, uh, what's that show? What's the show on MPI?


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[Assistant] No, not fresh air. All things considered. All things considered. That's what it felt like.


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[Assistant] Uh, this is Aaron Weber here with Dusty Slay. Alright. And Brian Bates. Alright. Nate is, Nate is somewhere, somewhere in the world.


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[Assistant] Who knows? I can't keep track of them anymore, but it's a three of us. Energy's good in the room. I feel good about this episode.


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[Assistant] Do you ever think about that? Like you watch me draw? Well, it just feels, you feel a little disinterested. Okay. As we're talking, it's like when I'm at dinner with my wife and I'm in the middle of a story and she's on her phone.


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[Assistant] You bring in your red wagon. Yeah. And we'll just compare our childhoods. Radio flyer.


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[Assistant] This video has 607 million views.


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[Assistant] I would like to start filming this with you, Dusty, make some-


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[Assistant] I like the idea of you doing a Bob Ross type show with some of your doodles. Yeah, let's do that. You know, let's put it together. I think that could be fun.


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[Assistant] What are we all, uh, what are we all up to this weekend? Where, where have you been? Where are we going?


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[Assistant] You didn't get that set up? I'll help you get it set up. It's so easy. I love it now. Yeah, I do a VOIP.


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[Assistant] Cause I've had that feeling where I'm like, I get to the end, I'm like, alright, I'll let y'all.


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[Assistant] And you signed a baseball right? I did sign a baseball. There's a guy who's been getting all of our signatures on the same baseball.


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[Assistant] Please don't get my signature tattoo. I assume you have.


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[Assistant] I'm just giving you the range. I told this story before, but I was selling shirts at the John Chris show way back in the day. We're in some church and this old woman comes up to me and she goes,


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[Assistant] She goes, can I get a three X? And I go, sure. And I gave it to her and she goes, thanks. This is for my husband. He's huge.


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[Assistant] I was like, Oh, that's all right. Yeah. You know, I'm, I wear a three X, not a big deal. And she goes, Oh, yeah, let me get a two X.


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[Assistant] You know what you do man? If you want to make some money, here's a way to make a fan for life, dude. You get some bigger sizes.


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[Assistant] You don't even have to put them out, just hide them in your suitcase and you'll see a dude walk up who's a four or five X.


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[Assistant] What do you got? And you go, I got you dude. And then reach in, you throw a 4X at a guy.


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[Assistant] But here's the thing dude, there's 3x people everywhere, man.


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[Assistant] Or they want a nighttime shirt. Yeah. You know, just something to throw on.


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[Assistant] I know man, in that room, I mean, the shows I did were hot, dude.


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[Assistant] They weren't sold out, but it's a small enough room that you can pack them in there. Everybody kept calling me the kill box. What's that mean? That term.


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[Assistant] It's a comedian term I've heard you in, and I heard it used a lot this weekend. I kind of don't like it, but it's appropriate. It's a killer.


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[Assistant] Yeah, where it's just like a perfect room to...


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[Assistant] In the city, but most of it, you know, it's on the strip or whatever. That's different. This is in the arts district. This is locals. I mean, the host went up there. Jared, very funny guy. It was his first time hosting a weekend at the club. He was excited and he had a joke about.


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[Assistant] The room I was in was great, but we went by there and hung out with him. I had a great comedy weekend that we did my show, then hung out a big Jay's show. Then the next night tried the Tropicana.


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[Assistant] Which is a casino, uh, in Vegas. It has the Laugh Factory comedy club there, the Tropicana is closing.


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[Assistant] So it was like the last weekend of the last factory.


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[Assistant] We went over, Dustin Nickerson was in town doing Brad Garrett's club. We went and hung out with him. Then we went to the laugh factory and hung out, saw Brian Regan there. Jackie Kashian was there, all these comedians that were, so we just like hung out. I was like, what a great comedy weekend. Yeah. Yeah. I got some embarrassing pictures of myself.


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[Assistant] I think I might have this wrong, but I think that's where they're going to build the new baseball stadium.


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[Assistant] Which they don't seem to be thrilled about. I'll say it. I would be so pumped if Nashville got an MLB team, but every time it was mentioned on stage in Vegas, it got boozed. Oh, they're getting the A's. Yeah, they're getting the Oakland A's are moving out to Las Vegas.


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[Assistant] That was just like, just hanging out. You know we're hanging out.


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[Assistant] Did you see the sphere? I did see the sphere and I didn't go in. Okay. You drive up early. I get it.


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[Assistant] It also doesn't look as good in person. You can see...


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[Assistant] You can see the mechanism inside of it, at least during the day.


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[Assistant] No, not cigars. We were doing other stuff. You know what I mean?


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[Assistant] We're having a good time. Yeah. It was just more of a, I thought it would be a Vegas weekend, but it was a comedy weekend. I don't know if that makes sense. It was like good comedy hang, so. Did you gamble at all? No, I didn't gamble.


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[Assistant] You know what I mean? Uh, but uh, thank you to everybody who came out. That was two hot shows. I can't wait to go back. I was on stage the first night. I was like, I wish, I wish this was a special thing.


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[Assistant] There. I should. Yea. I'm not gonna be back for a while. I am gonna be taping something soon. Call it Killbox.


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[Assistant] Workout muscle. Oh yeah. Sarah gun, whatever they're called. You ever use one of those? No.


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[Assistant] It's nice man, they send out reports monthly on what's out there and I was surprised.


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[Assistant] Taking away stuff you don't want. Take control of your data, data, and keep your private life private by signing up for Delete Me now at a special discount for our listeners. Listen in.


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[Assistant] Today, get 20% off your Delete Me plan when you go to joindeleteeme.com.


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[Assistant] I mean, if you want to just throw the whole show to the wind, sure. Just do whatever you want.


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[Assistant] And you grow up and you start to identify with him a little more, right? You're like, Hey, maybe shut up in the middle of the night.


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[Assistant] Is that a claim that you made? You just said that they were the number one.


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[Assistant] Why not just get fake kale? Like fake plants in an apartment.


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[Assistant] Every last week, I remember, yeah, I tried a bit about this for awhile, but I watched the movie heavy weights as an adult. It was like.


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[Assistant] Not only laughs, but the biggest laughs of the whole podcast, apparently.


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[Assistant] Yeaah. Do the closing bid on the Tennessee Kid. Yeaah. Right now.


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[Assistant] Yeah, yeah, I think it is. Okay. It's call back to the half hour, right? I think so. Yeah.


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[Assistant] That's what this podcast is. Oh yeah. Some science back stuff too. Let's hear it. Well, no, no, no. I'm not ready to display it yet. I have a work and I watched this guy and he said,


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[Assistant] He gave these phrases to say and as you gradually get them faster and faster. So you do one, one and a quarter, one and a half, one seventy five, two, two and a quarter, two and a half, two seventy five, three, three and a quarter, three and a half, three seventy five, four, four, four, four and a quarter, four and a half, four seventy five, five. You just do that.


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[Assistant] I was just doing that in the car this weekend. Just looking like a crazy person in my car.


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[Assistant] That was very good. I'm telling you dude, and then once I find a bit to do it in.


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[Assistant] That show was so hot, I didn't lose anybody on it. Yeah, it was good. That's awesome.


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[Assistant] Now is there a program where you get a comment read, then now you get bumped to the top? Cause that's what it feels like. I'm not questioning your process, but.


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[Assistant] I think what you're saying is just get better at writing. Like these people are good at writing. I guess so. I guess so.


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[Assistant] I think I was there when you started really doing the, we're having a good time. Cause you had a moment on stage and I've told the story to other comics quite often.


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[Assistant] I don't remember which show, but it was not a hot show.


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[Assistant] But you're kind of having fun with how bad it was. So you're doing the wave thing. I like the wave like this.


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[Assistant] You don't want to go too high. It looks like you're asking a question. You're like, just keep it down here. And you kind of did this.


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[Assistant] They're basically the same dude. Mark Frank.


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[Assistant] It's gotta be, it sounds, this sounds so lame, but some of it just sounds so dated.


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[Assistant] That 80's sound. Oh yeaah. The drum tracks and everything. Phil Collins is a great drummer, but the drum tracks just sound so...


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[Assistant] Remember that song by Phil Collins in the air of the night where the guy could have saved that other guy from drowning, but didn't.


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[Assistant] Oh yea, well, like, you know, some of Paul McCartney's stuff sounds like The Beatles?


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[Assistant] And sometimes it works out, sometimes it doesn't. Yeah. Where the band just breaks up. They're like, let's all, we all want to do our own stuff. Some side projects, you know.


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[Assistant] Could be the season, could be the verb.


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[Assistant] Could be, uh, the creek. There you go, spring. Or I'm thinking like an actual spring.


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[Assistant] There were also a bunch of people there that weren't invited, just so you know. So everyone would have been very excited if you showed up.


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[Assistant] It was also another one. Fact check, Coca Cola does not cause a positive COVID-19 test. Okay.


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[Assistant] Never heard of that. Right, but the coke is the all-encompassing term. Your friend comes over, you want a coke or something? Yeaah.


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[Assistant] And people that make fun of this, you wouldn't go to a restaurant and go.


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[Assistant] When you order something, you're specific about it. Right. You never go, yeah, can I get a soda?


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[Assistant] Right, you, you say specifically what you want, so.


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[Assistant] I was thinking, cause this weekend, this is the second time I had done that club in Las Vegas. So I was able to pull up my set list from the last time I was there and I go, I'll do all new stuff this time. How nice would it be to have that?


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[Assistant] You've already tried this on me. Nah, I wouldn't do that to him.


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[Assistant] Or they're like telling you about a movie and you're like, yeah, I've seen it. And they keep describing the plot to you.


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[Assistant] I thought about it. I thought about it. I'm also 70 pounds lighter than I was when I recorded it the first time. So it would look a little better, but.


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[Assistant] It says out of an abundance of caution, Rutherford County schools will be closed on April 8th because of the timing of the eclipse occurs when many students will be on buses and can't be supervised from looking at the eclipse.


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[Assistant] Half day, that seems like a fun compromise, you know, let them out at noon, gives them a couple hours to go where they want to go.


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[Assistant] I think it's like two o'clock central. Doesn't that seem early to be kids on buses?


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[Assistant] They let them out early, man. They did? Yea, they let them out early. These aren't, you know, the schools are falling apart, so let's just, let's send them home.


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[Assistant] During the eclipse. Yeah. Is it going through Sweden? I don't think so.


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[Assistant] I had, I was walking to the gas station in Las Vegas and this dude comes up and they will approach you.


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[Assistant] In Las Vegas, I'll say that. This dude comes up, he's fully tatted.


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[Assistant] And he walks up to me, he goes, you got any cash? And I give him like two bucks and he goes, man, I'm in a world that's not my own.


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[Assistant] He's like, I'm with this guy. He's like, yeah, you're not. But I go, what does that mean? He goes, man, I came out here from Idaho. I'm the only real punk rocker in this city.


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[Assistant] It was such a funny, crazy thing to say that it didn't even follow what had just happened.


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[Assistant] Now we should address this up top. You say the word a little funny. Oh, I did. Yeah.


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[Assistant] What do you call the, so a poet would write a poem.


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[Assistant] I saw him randomly on the street in Raleigh, North Carolina, and then I saw him at the airport. So we followed each other on Instagram and he left.


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[Assistant] Yeah i went up to him but he is familiar with nate is familiar with the podcast and he's very nice so he probably.


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[Assistant] Hey, have you ever checked this guy out? And I said it and I was just like, what am I doing? Did I'm recommending music? Right. Like you're bonding with a guy. Well, I just didn't haven't heard back yet.


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[Assistant] John Chris. I think the friendship ended pretty quick. You know what I mean? He's like, ah, good grief.


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[Assistant] It was also like, it was a reach of a suggestion. It was like, it was a gamble. Because he could check it out and be like, ugh. He went for it. This guy stinks.


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[Assistant] I'll get it together. Just avoid saying it however you can. It's going to be tough because I know it's the topic, but just try to avoid it.


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[Assistant] I am for my, for my school newspaper. It doesn't matter where it was published. It was on paper. Absolutely. And back then they had to, I mean, they had to put all those letters in the thing and then stamp it down. It was a computer.


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[Assistant] Is that Robert Frost? Yeah, this is, this is a very famous poem. Two paths diverged in the, in the woods. I know that one. Right? This, that's the same one. That's just the first line of it.


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[Assistant] Reflecting on his past and convincing himself that he made, that he took the right path, even though he knows deep down he probably didn't.


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[Assistant] But it's quoted all the time. That's probably like, the one poem most people can name is that poem.


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[Assistant] So interesting. This is such a philosophical difference between the two. This is honestly, this is like.


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[Assistant] This goes back to like our biblical interpretation. I'm reading exegetically and you're reading eisegetically.


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[Assistant] What does that mean? It's just you talking about you get your own, you don't care about the.


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[Assistant] Yeah, I'm trying to, I'm trying to think of one, but I had just thought about this. You'd been singing a song your whole life and then you don't actually, you know, like a good example, semi-charm life by third eye blind. Remember that song? Oh yeah. Yeah. You sing that as a kid. I sing it as a kid. Such a fun song. Yeah. And then you look into the lyrics and it's.


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[Assistant] Yeah, I have to check that out, man. I only really know the one radio head song. Creep.


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[Assistant] You gotta get out there. I always have an instinct to like think this is stupid.


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[Assistant] Right? And you gotta get past that a little bit. And just like tell yourself. Kinda like improv.


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[Assistant] We were shown this poem at school and I lost it and how dumb I thought this was. It's called the Red Wheelbarrow.


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[Assistant] By William Carlos Williams. Have you heard of this poem? I have not. So.


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[Assistant] I mean, we could, we have time to read it out loud. If you can't see it, it's about 13 words in this. So much depends upon a red wheel Barrow glazed with rain water beside the white chickens. It's beautiful.


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[Assistant] I don't think this poem is about like appreciating how cool the wheelbarrow is. Is that a famous poem? That's a very famous one, yeaah. Look how long the Wikipedia entry is for this poem.


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[Assistant] Wow. Considerably longer than the poem itself. That's amazing.


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[Assistant] Well, it's a prime example of early 20th century Imagism.


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[Assistant] So there you go, 16 words long, the red wheel bearer is one of William's most, that's William Carlos Williams, the author, his most frequently anthologized poems and a prime example of whatever.


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[Assistant] But, but be honest, if your kid brought this poem home and was like, I wrote this, you'd be like, this stinks. It doesn't even make sense. What are you writing about? But because some were told that this is a good poem, then you can be like, oh, it is pretty nice.


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[Assistant] I guess what I'm saying is, I'm not even denying that this is a good or important poem, but I'm saying if you found these words written on a piece of paper in the street,


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[Assistant] You would throw it away. Yeaah. You'd be like, this is nonsense. It's a crazy person, right? Yeaah, exactly. Now what is kinda cool is each stand kinda looks like a wheelbarrow.


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[Assistant] Look at that. You see it? You see the shape of it? I don't know. I like to think it's on purpose.


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[Assistant] Well, I'll tell you what, in addition to analyzing poetry, I've also struggled with finding time to manage my finances. That's the issue time.


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[Assistant] At the end of a busy week being on the road, the last thing I want to do is spend time budgeting all my expenses or tracking down customer service teams to cancel old subscriptions.


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[Assistant] I no longer use. That's why I don't do it. I use rocket money. It does all of that for me. It's a personal finance, finance app that finds and cancels your unwanted subscriptions.


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[Assistant] He's, uh, accessible. There's nothing wrong with that. But I... Yea, I don't think that, uh...


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[Assistant] I understand the instinct to think that that's reductive of him in some way. But no, it's like easily, you can...


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[Assistant] Well, you read some of these guys, uh, Emerson and Thoreau and all these dorks, they just wanted to be a treat. They're like, God, I wish God had


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[Assistant] Yeah. Okay. Great book. Great movie. Yeah.


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[Assistant] But the whole point of it is, is he, is he once got in the wilderness because he believes


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[Assistant] You don't need human beings to, to achieve happiness, right? Yeaah. Happiness, I think the way words it is, happiness is not.


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[Assistant] Reached principally through human experiences, right? So he's, I'll just go out, just be in the Alaskan wilderness and I'll be happy. And he dies out there and I have to spoil the movie if you haven't seen it, but found in his book, he had scribbled in the margins, happiness only real when shared.


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[Assistant] Yeah. They, you know, they weren't around people, right? You do, because it's like, yeah, it's like- Sorry to call them dorks, I don't know what else to call them.


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[Assistant] That was interesting what you said about boredom earlier and just, I bet there are a lot fewer poets today than there were back in these times.


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[Assistant] You know, I, I can't, I see kids now that are 10 and 12 and that age and I can't imagine they're writing poetry. You know? Yeah. They're just.


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[Assistant] You reading it a lot? Every night. Yeah. Every snowy evening.


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[Assistant] I sit down, I read, I'm a big poetry head.


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[Assistant] No one would I know now about Shakespeare, I don't know.


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[Assistant] Yeah. Alright. So we're not even thinking about it anymore. Uh, we're not.


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[Assistant] No, we're not even thinking about the way you say it anymore is what I'm saying. And I'm sorry if I've made you self-conscious about it. And I really value our friendship.


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[Assistant] Now let me ask you this, what about snapping? Cause that's the trope, right? Is a guy reads a poem and the crowd snaps. What is that all about? I did not know that. I don't know why you can't just clap.


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[Assistant] I had to follow a slam poet at a show at a barbershop in Milan, Tennessee. And he brought, he brought some real energy to it. He was, you know.


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[Assistant] Yeah, he died on the side of the street, married to his cousin, drunk.


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[Assistant] Urinated on himself. That's how he died. One of our greatest poets.


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[Assistant] That's how he died. So anyone out there thinking about getting into poetry, that's how it ends.


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[Assistant] That was, that did not, that was meant to be a joke. I'm sorry, I got no laughs from anybody. If there's, if nobody at the table laughs, it comes across much differently than I like. Yeah, I think that is how he died, but I don't want to discourage our younger listeners from getting into poetry, so I'm sorry if I did that.


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[Assistant] I know it from Dead Poets Society, which we watched together.


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[Assistant] Oh wow. You know what, Whitman? Barbaric yop.


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[Assistant] I don't know why that is. Yeah, school ties is great. What's another, uh, what's another, there's a bunch out in my feeling.


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[Assistant] Son of a woman. Oh yeah. That's a boarding school movie.


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[Assistant] They all came out about the same time. This movie, The Holdovers that just came out, which won a bunch of Oscars. I recommend that. That movie is great. I heard it's great.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Do you know any modern day poets? No, I guess not. You know, Chance the Rapper did a poem on his, uh, NPR tiny desk. So I guess he's a poet. But I can't name a.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Name one who's really kickin'. Maya Angelou, she still around?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That's great. There's a songwriter, Lori McKenna. Have you heard of her? She wrote a lot of big country song, Humble and Kind by Tim McGraw. She wrote that song, which is a big song for us. She wrote a book, but she has a song called People Get Old.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It's one of my favorite songs, dude. And that last, it's just about me. It's about the passage of time through her dad. She's like reflecting on her dad and she's saying like, now I have all these memories and now I'm as old as you were in these memories now. And then the last chorus, she says, houses need paint. Winners bring snow. Nothing says love like a band of gold.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You should put a Spotify playlist together of all these songs you're talking about.