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[Assistant] Lorna at this point was held without bond and continued to assert her innocence in the entire scheme. She was like, I have no idea what these people are talking about. Okay.


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[Assistant] And at the same time, she was pretty much refusing to talk to investigators, but it didn't matter because a lot of other people were willing to be way more forthcoming. Like don't worry, we got you.


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[Assistant] By the first week of December, detectives had managed to track down Gregory Curry, the man to whom Danny Carter had given money, given the money to murder Martin.


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[Assistant] Where he pleaded guilty to a charge of criminal solicitation in exchange for a lesser penalty.


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[Assistant] Okay? Okay. What's happening? He collected the money but he never followed through.


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[Assistant] During this period, now the rumors of an affair between Tom and Lorna were going everywhere, persisting throughout Emporia.


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[Assistant] But shockingly few, if any, actually believed that Tom Bird was involved in these crimes. Honestly, that doesn't shock me.


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[Assistant] He likes God. His occupation is too wild for that. And it's just like what, like no, no, that's just his job. Like that's just his job. Right. Like why are we not, we're like, we're like so,


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[Assistant] Another character here. Another person coming in here. Her name was Jennifer Peterson. She got a call from Tom Bird saying that he needed to speak with Daryl as soon as possible. Uh oh. Fearing for his safety, Daryl informed his lawyer of Tom's request and together they went to the KBI. Jesus Christ. I didn't even move. Did you see that?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Sorry. So fearing for his safety, Daryl informed his lawyer of Tom's request and together they went to the KBI.


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[Assistant] KBI agents convince Daryl to arrange the meeting with Tom.


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[Assistant] Awesome, sounds good. And on December 10th, the two men met in a local parking lot, where Daryl secretly recorded the conversation.


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[Assistant] Daryl and Lorna all spoke of killing Sandy and Martin.


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[Assistant] While the tape was an important piece of the story, they still needed more evidence if they were going to arrest Tom, cause it wasn't like a smoking gun.


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[Assistant] Contrary to Tom's claims of having gone for a jog the night of the murder and returning home still in his jogging clothes, the babysitter told police uh-uh. He came home a little after midnight and he was, quote, wearing dress slacks, a shirt, and tie.


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[Assistant] No, no, I like that this babysitter was like, no, no, no.


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[Assistant] They kept talking to different people. It took nearly four months, but finally, on March 21st, 1984,


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[Assistant] Tom Byrd was arrested and charged with criminal solicitation to commit first degree murder.


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[Assistant] To be quite honest, really doesn't get answered. That's upsetting. Yeah. I think people have their own opinions and I


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Have mine, that I might not tell you. And you can have yours. And you can have yours, exactly. Okay, so.


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[Assistant] He was arrested, and at the time, Lorna, who had been free on bond, was re-arrested.


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[Assistant] And after dropping the previous charges against her, they were like, oh, let's get rid of those. It's okay, Lorna. It's not okay though, because we're charging you with far more serious things like, um, aiding and abetting first degree murder. And we're going to hit you also with two counts of conspiracy to commit first degree murder in the shooting death of your husband. Good. So welcome back. Welcome back, Lorna.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Darryl told the jury, Tom Byrd told me at the time he loved Lorna Anderson and that he was doing this to help her because he loved her.


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[Assistant] Additional evidence at the hearing included the 45 minute recorded conversation between Daryl and Tom that happened in December of the previous year. And based on the evidence presented by the prosecution,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Judge William Dick uh, uh, ordered Tom bound over for trial and the date was set for July 1st, 1984. Let's go.


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[Assistant] So many trials are about to happen. This better end in a way that is satisfactory.


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[Assistant] It kind of does. Man. Okay. Man. Uhm, and just, so many trials are about to happen. Oh boy. So just strap in.


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[Assistant] So, Tom's trial for the charge of criminal solicitation.


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[Assistant] Began in August of 1984, during which one witness after another testified about Tom's relationship with Lorna. They were like, we are ready to talk. They were so good at hiding it. Except not at all.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The jury also heard critical testimony from Daryl and Daniel Carter and Gregory Curry, who was the one that


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[Assistant] Although authorities at the time acknowledged that the plot to kill Martin Anderson was never carried out with Greg shooting the man, Tom was still found guilty and sentenced to two and a half to seven years in prison. Two and a half to seven years? Yeah. That's it. But don't worry, I told you there were more trials.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And in October of 1984, they actually had her body exhumed and a second autopsy was performed by Dr. William Eckert.


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[Assistant] With this. With him standing over you, presumably murdering you. Like, ugh. Yeah.


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[Assistant] Like that's horrific. And then on the other side of things, Martin Anderson just thought he was going for a drive with his family to pick up his uniform. Just happy to be out for a drive, you would assume, hopefully.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But yeaah, it could have ended in so many different ways. It really could have, but back to, uh, Dr. William Eckert's, uh, findings here.


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[Assistant] He, he found all these defensive wounds, and similarly,


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[Assistant] He theorized that the wounds to Sandy's head and shoulders quote could have been caused by an instrument such as the branch of a tree, a baseball bat.


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[Assistant] In his opinion, the injuries believed to have been caused by the accident could have just as likely been caused by a fall from a significant height.


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[Assistant] He had driven Sandy out to Rocky Ford Bridge and as they walked out onto the bridge,


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[Assistant] He's believing Sandy to be unconscious, he tried to throw her over the side, but she held onto the railing.


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[Assistant] And he kicked her until she fell. Oh my god. So she put up a fight which explains the defensive wounds. That's horrific. Yup. And it gets worse.


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[Assistant] After moving Sandy's body into the position it was discovered in the water, Tom,


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[Assistant] Drove the car, which accounts for the seat being pushed back as it was.


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[Assistant] Over the edge of the embankment there and jumped out before it went off the bridge.


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[Assistant] Once he staged the scene, he ran back to the church, ditching his clothes along the way, and changed into the suit that he was wearing when he and Sandy left the house that night. And that's why he did not return home in jogging clothes, like the babysitter said. I am- And also, you beat your wife to death


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Excuse me, you beat your wife up to the point of death, she's still holding on for dear life, and you kick her until she is completely dead and falls down, and then you drive the car that you presumably, presumably was your family car, off the side of an embankment, and then you go to church. I have no words.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] After all of that. And this is after you, like you said, have been like, we're gonna have a date night. Yeah.


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[Assistant] To celebrate you and what you have achieved. Wow, uh, that like, oh man, Sandy. Damn. Yeah. So.


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[Assistant] Based on the second autopsy and Lorna's statement of what allegedly happened, a grand jury indicted Tom yet again, this time with the first degree murder of his wife Sandy.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Told the jury that Tom quote had murdered his wife out of love for Lorna Anderson, which was supported by the evidence and the testimony


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[Assistant] Most significant were the results of that second autopsy and the circumstances of the scene which supported the prosecution's theory.


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[Assistant] Which explained why her blood had been found on the trees leading down to the embankment, and I also believe on the guardrail. This all makes so much more sense now. Exactly. And shout out to Officer John Rule for immediately recognizing those signs. Shout out, it's a good John. Another good John. If he didn't become like an actual homicide investigator after that, my goodness.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So the defense on the other hand, of course, argued that the prosecution's case was full of inconsistencies and relied heavily on hearsay. Except for that whole forensic pathologist.


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[Assistant] Yeah, so, nice try. After a brief investigation, the-


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[Assistant] Jury returned with a guilty verdict, and Tom burned with a dumb-


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[Assistant] Jesus Christ. Tom Byrd was sentenced to life in prison for the murder of his wife, Sandy Byrd. And he was already serving that two to seven year stint.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Oh, I like, I like life better than two to seven years. Life is much better. Much better. No, it was Lorna Anderson's statement to police.


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[Assistant] By the fall of 1988 though, she was facing very serious charges.


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[Assistant] And a strong case against her for the murder of her husband. So she took a deal.


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[Assistant] And she agreed to plead guilty to one count of second degree murder in exchange for a 20 year sentence.


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[Assistant] In March of 1990, a jury acquitted Tom of the charges related to Martin's death. And that's why I say we don't know who shot Martin. Okay. He was acquitted. Yep.


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[Assistant] Tom ended up appealing his conviction to the state supreme court in 1986, the one where he received life for the murder of Sandy, but the verdict and the sentence were upheld.


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[Assistant] That doesn't constitute a relationship? I thought that was like a big thing. Nope. Okay. Nope. Exactly.


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[Assistant] Uhm, and he said that he never agreed to participate in any murders.


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[Assistant] So I unprofessionally let it happen. It was more emotional than physical.


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[Assistant] Uh, there are many people though who believe that Tom was convicted on circumstantial evidence and questionable testimony from people with faulty memories.


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[Assistant] He was released in 2004 and his supervision period ended in 2006. And he's gone on to lead a quiet life.


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[Assistant] Wow. But he was convicted for murdering his wife. He certainly was. But not for shooting Martin Marterson. He was acquitted of that. He was acquitted of that. I want to be very clear.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Interesting. Lorna served nearly her entire sentence and was released on parole in 2007 with her supervision period officially ending in 2014.


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[Assistant] And from everything I could find also has gone on to live a quiet life. But apparently they both live in Kansas. I am shook by that.


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[Assistant] Seven kids, four of which at least were there when their father was killed.


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[Assistant] That's really upsetting and then like, just to think of...


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[Assistant] I mean both those murders were horrific and brutal.


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[Assistant] So brutal. Like, Martin was shot in the head three times.


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[Assistant] Sandy was thrown off an embankment. Yeah, she was beaten and thrown off an embankment. Like that's...


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[Assistant] Unthinkable. Truly. It's unthinkable. Truly.


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[Assistant] We really never will know, like, the fact that we don't know concretely who shot Martin Anderson is the biggest thing for me.


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[Assistant] His kids deserve to know. His parents, his family, and I'm sure everybody has their own opinions, but none of us know for certain. Which is like incredibly frustrating and I can't imagine if that was my loved one.


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[Assistant] I've just been saying silly things. She's been wily, my friends. Like, wily. Wily, reckless, and straight up cuckoo. All of those things.


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[Assistant] And I don't know, we don't really have a whole lights, I mean it's a holiday break, uhm, for everyone else.


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[Assistant] I'm coming at you straight off of an old timey case with, uh, uhm.


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[Assistant] With something from the 2000s. Oh shit. I didn't realize that. We were like chatting earlier. I didn't know that. So look at me.


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[Assistant] I don't know if mine comes out before yours or after. Who knows? I don't know anything. I don't know when anything comes out. Cause either way, this is a two-parter. We're going to be talking about Ronald Dominique, the Bayou Strangler. I don't know this one.


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[Assistant] And it's sad that you don't because a lot of people don't. Oh. And I think it's because of who he chose as victims. Oh no. He, the police didn't, the police, like everybody investigating this and the press.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Did not put enough emphasis on finding this guy. Okay. Fast enough.


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[Assistant] Because the people that he chose as victims, he knew that the investigators were going to look at and say, well, they're high risk in what they're doing, or, you know, it's probably their own fault because they did this. The victims that people consider less dead. Less dead, exactly. They get blamed for their own just being in the wrong place at the wrong time.


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[Assistant] Luckily, don't worry, he does eventually get caught, but a lot of people lost their lives along the way and a lot of them were not treated well in the press.


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[Assistant] So, this case is not, a lot of people don't know about it, and it just...


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[Assistant] It's not, it's not discussed, it wasn't discussed in the press respectfully at all. That's really frustrating. And it sucks. Uhm, so.


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[Assistant] In the spring of 2005, law enforcement officials in southern Louisiana had a growing, growing number of murder victims. And they had been, they had started to suspect that they were connected. They were thinking, okay, I think we do have


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] 16, 18, 19 boys. So they were all, you know, around that age and they were all vulnerable targets that the killer or killers were clearly actively preying on and they were thought to be on the fringes of society. A lot of them.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Some of them were known to be actively struggling with substance abuse or have a history of substance abuse struggles.


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[Assistant] Uhm, so eventually Ronald Dominique would have, would be connected to the murders and he, his count at the end would be the deaths of at least 23 men and boys. Wow. That's what blows my mind that this is not more well known because. Yea, that's nuts. That's a large amount of victims. And that's.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Small span of time, all things considered. And what did you, this was in the 2000s? Uh, this was, so where we begin is, uhm, in the spring of 2005, that's when they really started connecting everything. I can't believe, I don't know about this. Yes, I know. It's crazy.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now, over the course of a decade, Ronald Dominique developed into one of the worst and most prolific serial killers in American history, but like I just said, his story and those of his victims


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So, little is known about Ronald Dominique's life before his first run in with the law. We know he was born January 9th, 1964.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He's the youngest of six children to working class parents in Thibodeau, Louisiana. And to Capricorn. Yeah.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I know, I don't love it. No. Uhm, and Thibodaux is a small city about halfway between New Orleans and Baton Rouge.


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[Assistant] His family appears to have been pretty active and committed to their local church. And at a young age, we can, we can at least point to something that was a very big drama in his life. Uhm, at a very young age, Ronald told his parents that he had been sexually abused by a priest at the church. They reacted horrifically and didn't believe him.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And Ronald entered Thibodeau High School in the fall of 1979. Uh, he's saying in the, in, in that span of time, that's the big trauma that happened. Outside of that, there's really nothing of note.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But that alone is like, woah. That alone and then compounded by the fact that his parents didn't believe him. Exactly. And then if his parents didn't believe him, how much longer did that go on? Because they didn't. Exactly. And uhm, when you read a lot of sources about this, like books and such, and we'll obviously link all the books like we always do, but,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, a lot of them point to the fact that, uhm, he struggled with his own sexual identity for most of his life. Okay. And growing up in a religious home, obviously he was trying to hide that. Yeah. And his parents were, uh, people believed that they were probably catching on.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So that, they took him saying that about the priest as just an extension of that.


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[Assistant] And that's what really wraps all this into such like an awful ball of trauma, because it's like, there's so many layers to it for him as a kid. Yeah, you definitely feel bad for the child. And you feel bad for the child when you find out what an adult he is, you're like, wow, you're a fucking monster. It's just like, holy shit. Right.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He, you know, in high school, he was involved in clubs, he sang in the glee club, he was in the chorus, he enjoyed being a part of that.


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[Assistant] But he was bullied and harassed pretty relentlessly at school by his peers, according to an old school kind of like acquaintance, just a fellow student.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] They said they heard he was gay and they wanted him to admit it and he didn't. He was pretending that he wasn't and he would not openly admit it.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] This person's, you know, sexual preference. Well, it's like you don't know their sexual preference better than they do. Maybe, maybe he wasn't. It's also not my fucking business. Maybe he hadn't discovered it yet. Maybe he doesn't want you to know.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Oh, okay, so if he admitted it, that was gonna be like, thank you. Oh, we're good. No, it was so you could relentlessly torture him more. And it's like, what the fuck? Right, like what is wrong with you? And it's not just, you know, Ronald Dominique, obviously. It's like any kid that this happens to. I don't get that. Or like even adults when they're like, this guy just needs to admit that he's gay.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Why? Why? What effect does that have on your life? What bearing? Were you forced to actively admit that you were straight? No.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Were you forced to actively admit anything like that? No. No. Exactly. Nobody cares. Like, it's just like, what the fu- It's such a weird mindset for me. Society is wild.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It's just a strange, very alien mindset to me.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But, either way, he was also considered, uhm, he was, he struggled with his weight a lot. He was very overweight when he was younger and into adulthood. Okay. Which, of course, as a teen, puts a target on your back. Oh yeah. Uh, and the harassment from schoolmates definitely led to some like depression, poor self-esteem.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Social skills he did not have. Right. Now after graduating in 1983, he enrolled in Nichols State University and he decided to major in computer science. Oh wow. He dropped out after only a year or two. Also wow. Also wow.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now his criminal history began in the late spring of 1985, when he was arrested for making sexually harassing phone calls to his neighbors. Eww.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] There is study after study after. A peeping tom is not just a peeping tom. No. That is the first foray into if it is not stopped, becoming violent. Right. That is just how it goes. But at the time,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It was seen like a nuisance, like that's silly, a weird nuisance. He paid a $75 fine. Wow. And that was it.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, and according to a former roommate with whom he shared an apartment in 1985, Ronald, quote, didn't have many friends and he didn't keep friends. Okay.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So it doesn't look like he was able to maintain a relationship either, which is like...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That's like a typical, and we'll see, there is an FBI profile that comes out later, that is always typical on an FBI profile of a serial killer where it's like, he's not gonna have a lot of connections, he's not gonna be able to, and it, it checks. I was gonna say. A lot of the time it checks, not all the time, we've seen plenty. It's like the anti-social behavior. Yeah.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, but he also never fully felt comfortable like we mentioned with his own sexuality and often felt that he was kind of an outsider in all communities. So he was just kind of like, he was convinced himself that he didn't belong anywhere. It wasn't, when he became an adult, it wasn't necessarily people treating him


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And it's like he had convinced himself that the world was against him. And it's like, wasn't people actively doing it? He was just creating that for himself.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, and back in those days, no one really recalled Ronald's like, you know, dating anyone, having any romantic relationships. His former roommate didn't even remember him bringing anyone to the apartment. No guests, nothing, like no friends, nothing.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, basically whether it was his poor social skills or...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] What we now know, he was like very unkempt, like he was not put together at all. Ronald's night at the, he spent a lot of nights at bars in and around Houma.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Which we'll talk about Homer more cause he moves there. Okay. In Louisiana. Uhm, he spent a lot of time in bars around there and he wasn't there like drinking and dancing and like meeting people. He was just kinda playing pool and kinda for lack of a better term like lurking on the fringes of everything and he kinda found himself


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Wanting to step into Louisiana's gay scene at the time, like kind of get involved, meet some people, but


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He didn't have pure intentions with it. It wasn't like he was looking to involve himself to find friends, like get into relationships, like, you know, form connections. Right.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] After his arrest, we find out that his presence in these, in like, which at the time it was a very small, openly gay community in southern Louisiana in the 80s. Yeah. Uhm, it was a much more menacing implication that he had where he was trying to get involved in it.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That makes sense. That's where he was basically creeping among the most vulnerable and at risk in the community to find his first victims. That's what he was doing.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It's got so many, it's so spooky, I don't like it. It's like you just think of him just creeping around in those bars.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] At this time, police were called to his apartment after neighbors saw a man climbing down from Dominique's apartment window. And this reminds me of Jeffrey Dahmer too. This man was screaming, he's trying to kill me. When sheriff's deputies arrived, the quote, partially clad young man,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And held on a hundred thousand dollar bond, which he definitely couldn't pay. So he sat in the county jail luckily for three months pending a trial.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now, a conviction for sexual assault and attempted murder would have put Ronald in a federal prison for a long time. Like we've said goodbye. See you later.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Fortunately for him and unfortunately for the rest of society when the trial date finally arrived.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The accused, the complainant didn't show up. Oh no. And they couldn't locate him.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And that's so sad. Think about the time period. And just what had happened in general. Horrific. Like a lot of people wouldn't show up to face somebody that had done that to them.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That's why the justice system is so broken. And you would think if this, if this person, if the victim had been treated with a lot of respect and compassion and felt like they had a, like had a support system, then maybe they could, they would have shown up and it makes me sad that


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] In the early 90s in Louisiana, it's like there was not a lot, like you said, in the way of advocacy.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So after that close call, Ronald did manage to avoid police for several years actually. It was in 2000 that he got arrested again for disturbing the peace. And that makes you wonder, in between, like during those years, what happened? Was he just being more subtle about it? Right.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He like, he very clearly would have killed that man had he not escaped.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Either way, he paid the fine for disturbing the peace and managed to avoid going before a judge, but he was arrested again two years later after slapping a woman at a Mardi Gras parade. The fuck? Uh, in lieu of jail time or a fine, he was offered the opportunity to participate in an alternative sentencing program.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] This required people to meet and maintain certain expectations basically for the program. You had to maintain a job, display good behavior.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And it was all in order to avoid the harsher penalties that honestly should have come. Yeah. Get a job and don't slap women anymore and we'll, we'll excuse the one time you did. It's totally fine. The fuck. And so he managed to meet the requirements of the program and six months later the offense was completely discharged from his record.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, we see this like so many times. It's bad. Now following, following this whole thing and successfully getting that taken off of his record, uh, Ronald Dominique appeared to be somewhat getting his life together a little bit for a minute, like, or at least trying to.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] During the day, he got a job at a produce company in Houma, but the job wasn't enough to really make ends meet, so he found a second job as an evening delivery driver for Domino's Pizza.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] No. Yep. And when he wasn't working, he was like, he told people that he knew that he really wanted to be a productive member of society. So he became a full member of the local Lions Club.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Which also reminds me, this reminds me a little bit of John Wayne Gacy with the like, I need to be involved in the community, pretend that everything's fine. When you see how he does it, he lures people into his clutches only to kind of surprise them by binding them and killing them. Wow.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Very John Wayne, and also Jeffrey Dahmer, and also Dennis Rader, and also, he's a big combination of many. But in the Lions Club, he became a popular


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And what police and community members didn't know at this time, because again, like I said, he was putting on the facade.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, an active and positive community number, but police in the community would soon find out that by 2002, the man who was now that popular bingo caller and pizza delivery driver around town had already raped and murdered at least 11 men.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Eleven men and boys he had already raped and murdered at this time. And the fact that you can just do that at whatever point in your life. And then go pull numbers for bingo. Exactly.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And deliver somebody's pizza. Yeah. Like what the fuck? Yeah. So we're gonna start.


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[Assistant] Talking about this case, we're gonna back up now to 1997, 1998. Okay. That's when the murders at St. Charles Parish happened.


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[Assistant] So, on July 12th, 1997, 19-year-old David Mitchell Jr. attended a birthday party with his mother, Latrice Mitchell, and his aunt, Rita Aubrey.


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[Assistant] His aunt later said, quote, my brother didn't show up, so I guess he decided to try to hitchhike back to his mom's.


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[Assistant] Now when the family hadn't heard from Mitchell the following day, they assumed he'd maybe stopped off at a friend's house, stayed the night, like there was no real cause for alarm at first. Yea, and probably like trying to cool off after whatever fight this was. And the following day,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] David Mitchell didn't report for work. And when his mother checked his bedroom, his ID badge and wore clothes were still on the bed untouched and that was not like him. He would go to work.


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[Assistant] And, and, and it also wasn't like, it wasn't like David to miss work, and it wasn't like David to stay out all night. Not check in. They were trying to think in their heads like, okay, maybe.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] We missed him mentioning that he was going to a friend's house or something. They were already a little on edge because he wasn't one to just do that. Right. Uhm, so Latrice Mitchell did call the police, his mother to report her son missing while waiting for an update.


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[Assistant] So they had already found him, most likely at the time that you reported him missing? They had already, they didn't notice him. That's the thing. They had only found an unidentified young black man. And when she called,


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[Assistant] They didn't know that they had already found him. Oh my god. But that's how she found out. That's horrible. Horrific.


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[Assistant] So now it begins, this whole authority shrugging these families off. Now the authorities were just


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[Assistant] And what are they talking about high risk lifestyle in his case? Like that's what kills me here is that high risk is like a legitimate term. It's an actual term that can be used


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[Assistant] For things like, you grew up in an abusive household.


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[Assistant] We're doing things that led to their own murder. Like they did something that they deserved this almost. They weren't saying that, but they were saying it by, by implying that. Yeah. They were saying the quiet part out loud. Exactly. They were implying that somehow this was their own fault. That's bullshit. He still got killed.


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[Assistant] It's like, it doesn't matter what the, like, this is a person. Right. This is someone's family. And you need to investigate what the fuck happened. It's your whole job. Now, tragic as it was, the death of David Mitchell didn't strike law enforcement as anything more than an unfortunate accident. Wow. Pants around his ankles. And it was an accident. No.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But within a year his death would get a second look because it was in the wake of two more deaths of a similar nature. Neither of which were accidental and really couldn't be explained to your term as accidental.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] In mid-December of 1997, 20-year-old Gary Pierre's body was discovered in a wooded area of Mance, which is an unincorporated area of St. Charles Parish. Uhm, unlike Mitchell, Pierre had been sexually assaulted, confirmed.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] At first was initially classified, not as murder, but as unclassified. How is that unclassified?


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[Assistant] What more do you need to classify that as a murder? When you think about that this really happened and this really happens, that a person can be raped,


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[Assistant] So, like David Mitchell, Gary Pierre's death had been largely forgotten about until the end of July 1998, when St. Charles Parish investigators discovered another body. Oh my god. That of 38-year-old Larry Ranson.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, I looked up every pronunciation for everything and I just didn't look up that. Uhm, but it was not far from where David Mitchell's body was discovered almost exactly one year earlier. And Ranson's body was fully clothed and aside from having been, quote, kicked in the groin,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The only trauma was the asphyxiation that had caused his death.


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[Assistant] Uhm, as in the case of Gary Pierre, Larry Renson was believed to have struggled with drugs, uhm, which police believed was somehow linked to his death. They could not let this go. You guys gotta stop just sitting on that. So they labeled it unclassified. Oh my god.


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[Assistant] Yeaah, that's exactly. Now, unfortunately, there is a limited amount of information about Dominique's first three victims that we just mentioned, but their demographic profiles are significant and they'll become more significant as these murders continue.


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[Assistant] Again, these pieces of personal information are only important in the sense of showing that there is a pattern and a victim profile that will continue. It also shows that the investigation was heavily biased against them because of prejudices of some kind or another at multiple times during the investigation. It sounds like multiple prejudices.


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[Assistant] And really, little effort was put into solving these deaths. Yeah, that's what it sounds like. But in February 1999, the Pierre and Rancing cases were finally reclassified as murders and investigated as such.


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[Assistant] Unfortunately by that time, Ronald Dominique had already killed three more times.


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[Assistant] Now, we're gonna move into the murders that happened in the New Orleans suburbs from 1998 to 1999.


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[Assistant] The afternoon of October 3rd, 1998 was unseasonably hot, even for Louisiana. So, Ronald Dominique drove the half hour or so from Hanville to the French Quarter.


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[Assistant] He was hoping that like, you know, the excitement, the activity of the French Quarter, that whole neighborhood would be enough to blow off some of his steam.


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[Assistant] He was basically looking to pay for sex that night. In New Orleans, French Quarter, especially at this time, sex or anything else for that matter was relatively easy to find down there. It was like a big party atmosphere.


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[Assistant] Uhm, that afternoon, Ronald made his way to Rawhide, which was a well-known bar in the quarter, and he took a seat at the bar next to 27-year-old Oliver LeBanks.


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[Assistant] Oliver had come to the bar with his brother and a couple of friends, but he didn't really like rawhide and he wasn't really into this whole thing, so.


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[Assistant] While they were dancing and mingling and doing whatever, he just took a seat at the bar and had a beer. He was like, I'm just hanging out. Now after making some small talk, it was apparent what Dominique was looking for. So they worked out the specifics of a transactional, transactional sexual experience between the two of them. And the two men left the bar in the direction of Ronald's car.


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[Assistant] Now, it was dark by the time they reached the car and it was in the parking lot of the Jack's Brewery.


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[Assistant] And so he wrapped a belt around Oliver LeBanc's neck and pulled it so tightly that the clasps cut into his neck. Jesus. And he choked him for several minutes until he was sure he was dead.


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[Assistant] That is terrifying because when you see a picture of this man, he's a big guy. He's very intimidating. Like, and I'm not saying that in like the sense of weight, I'm saying like, he's an intimidating guy. He's a big build. And it would be so easy for him to overpower someone. Yes, that's the thing. It's so scary. And just what he's capable of anyways. How?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Dominique drove Oliver LeBanks' body to a remote stretch of road near Zephyr Fields, which was home to the AAA minor league, New Orleans Zephyrs. My god. And dumped his body under a dark overpass, and then he drove back to his trailer in Houma, and Oliver's body was discovered the next morning by a passerby who reported it to police.


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[Assistant] Now to show again that this pattern is that, that Ronald Dominique was establishing for his chosen victims.


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[Assistant] Oliver Labanks was black, like obviously he is choosing a very specific victim, had a history of substance abuse struggles in the past and was known to engage in sex work from time to time just to get money for things he needed or wanted.


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[Assistant] Now these facts, again, I would just want to make sure everybody knows, these facts do not define Oliver LeBanks as a person. No. But they give insight into Donald, Ronald Dominique's fucked up worldview.


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[Assistant] In the way he is choosing his victims. His victim profile. He had a victim type now, definitely. We're at that point. Right. But even with all these patterns and similarities between victims and methods of murder, the press picked up on the fact that there was


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[Assistant] Oh my god. It's so shameful, it is wild. It's like who wrote that? And luckily in the years since his murder, LeBanks' friends and family have attempted to correct this narrative, which


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[Assistant] It's gross that they even have to do that. That shouldn't be their fucking job. That should be the job of journalists that are writing these things. How do you write something that callous? According to a friend and former employer, Mar Paulson, he said he was not a badass in any way. Ollie had five children.


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[Assistant] He had responsibilities and a good future in front of him, but he had one weakness. While he'd been clean for some time, a long time, Ollie was a recovering drug addict.


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[Assistant] It was, they literally said, let me go back to find it.


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[Assistant] An uneducated and unvalued transient kitchen employee in some mindless job. Unvalued, he has five children, he clearly has friends, he has a mom, he has family.


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[Assistant] And yeaah, and hearing someone who cared about him refer to him as Ollie, like, kills me.


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[Assistant] So for detectives, there was very little evidence at the scene. According to the autopsy, Oliver had been bound at the wrist.


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[Assistant] And raped before being murdered. But the killer left no fingerprints and had worn a condom, so they didn't have anything left. Uhm, so detectives didn't have a lot to work with here. What they did have was a single hair from a white man left on the body. But until they had a suspect to match it to,


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[Assistant] Unfortunately, it would be in another jurisdiction, and a long time would pass before the connection between the victims was made.


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[Assistant] The other thing that Ronald Dominique did was he went to different jurisdictions and parishes. Knowingly. Knowing that it was going to take a while for them to connect these because they, even connecting different cases like that in different counties and parishes and jurisdictions,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So just two weeks after Oliver LeBanks' body was discovered under the overpass, the partially closed body of 16-year-old Joseph Brown was discovered on October 19th, 1998. He was found on the western end of Veterans Memorial Boulevard in Kenner.


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[Assistant] Which is a suburban community about 10 or 15 minutes outside New Orleans. Uh, to investigators at the scene, it looked like Brown's body had been, quote, pretty much dumped out of a car by the side of the road.


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[Assistant] Wow. Like trash. Yea. He'd suffered, and this is really sad, like this one really got me. He'd suffered several severe lacerations and wounds to his head, and a bloody plastic bag was discovered near his body, which investigators suspect that the bag had been placed over his head as he was beaten to death. My god. Yes.


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[Assistant] This guy's a fucking monster. There's no words. Like beyond. Joseph Brown had grown up in, and I looked up the pronunciation of this place in Louisiana, and it is pronounced Boo-Tee, Louisiana.


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[Assistant] Uhm, about 15 minutes from Kenner. Of course, the press labeled him a troubled teenager. Not just, uhm.


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[Assistant] On the night of his murder, Joseph had been out with some friends in Booty and no one seemed to know how he'd gotten to Kenner or what he was doing there.


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[Assistant] Uhm, which obviously, a teenage boy dying by strangulation is like pretty unusual.


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[Assistant] Yeah, one might say. But otherwise, there weren't really clues to who or how, like other, like where he was killed. But again, they were just kinda like, well, he was a troubled kid. And it's like, well, troubled kids don't always get strangled, so I think we should look into that. Like, what the fuck?


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[Assistant] So Jefferson Paris detectives who were working the Oliver LeBanks case got called in November when the body of 18 year old Bruce Williams was discovered in an industrial park in Jefferson Parish, just outside New Orleans.


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[Assistant] On the evening of November 27th, Williams was seen by friends in the French Quarter, and also like Le Banks, he had been raped and strangled.


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[Assistant] So he's got a very much a, an MO here. Now,


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[Assistant] This is an unusual number of young male rape slash murder victims being discovered in the greater New Orleans area.


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[Assistant] Um, at one point, one of the detectives was like, this is more murders than we have for an entire year. Like, this is a lot.


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[Assistant] There's a lot of murders in New Orleans. I was going to say. It's not like they have. It's not unknown to them. But these were happening so quickly. He was like at the end of like the whole thing, he was like that stretch is more than we can sometimes have in a year and it happened within like this small period of time.


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[Assistant] Was it in the early days of profiling? I don't really know when that even started to be honest. Yeah, and it's like, and this was just like, I mean, it wasn't useless in the end. You look at it in the end and you're like, yeah, that was actually exactly dead on, but it,


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[Assistant] It's just, there's so many people that fit in this that it's really hard. They said their killer was a white male, mid thirties.


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[Assistant] According to FBI profiler Tom Colby, LeBanks and Williams killer he believed lived near the airport.


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[Assistant] Bring your, bring your net in closer to the airport. I wonder what made them think that, especially because it was all spread out. Well they thought this because the locations of the string of body dumping sites, they were all near the airport. Like on the way back. Like they were in a certain area that made sense.


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[Assistant] Uhm, and while detectives in and around New Orleans worked with federal agents to develop a profile of what they were now believing was a serial killer, Ronald Dominique was back out on the hunt for a new victim.


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[Assistant] On May 30th, 1999, the partially clothed body of 21-year-old Manuel Reed was discovered in the dumpster behind a business in Kenner.


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[Assistant] Reed had grown up in New Orleans and like the other victims, he did have a history of struggling with substance abuse and was known to police as a sometimes sex worker.


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[Assistant] Uhm, but also like the other victims, Reid had been raped and strangled.


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[Assistant] Now the scene repeated itself exactly one month later when the body of 21 year old Angel Mejia was discovered by a dumpster in an industrial area of Kenner. Detectives at the scene immediately noticed that Mejia


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[Assistant] He had also been raped and strangled, but this time Dominique had broken his pattern.


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[Assistant] A little because he left him in a relatively well lit area in front of a very regularly used business dumpster.


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[Assistant] Do you think he was just getting bolder because he wasn't getting caught? They thought he was just getting sloppy. Sloppy, got it. They really thought he was just getting sloppy.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, although they didn't know it at the time, the FBI's profile, like we said, generic as it was, was pretty accurate, because Ronald Dominique was a white man in his thirties at this time, with very slower...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That's wild. Isn't it? Profiling is really wild. Giddyin' out here. That's right. Like many serial killers, he'd hunted for his victims in and around the place he was most familiar with and where he felt most comfortable.


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[Assistant] But again, with the murder of Angel Mejia, Dominique had apparently been going out of his way to


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[Assistant] So since the discovery of Oliver Banks in October 1998, detectives in and around New Orleans had worked very quietly on the case that would eventually be linked back to Dominique.


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[Assistant] For one thing, the murders had been committed in, like I said before, different jurisdictions, so connecting them, they needed more evidence for it.


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[Assistant] It was also important to investigators that while the cases were open and ongoing, the pertinent information be kept.


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[Assistant] Close to the chest. They wanted it kept from the press, the public.


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[Assistant] Now, it's unclear where journalists in the New Orleans area got this information, but by the end of June, reports started circulating about a potential serial killer who already claimed three young men whose shoeless bodies were dumped in isolated areas around New Orleans International Airport.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The article linked the murders of Angel Mejia, Joseph Brown, and Manuel Reed, who is unidentified in the article. They don't even use their name.


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[Assistant] Uhm, they link him to them to a single killer and they claim that all three of these victims were all, quote, dark skinned men and they claimed falsely that they all had cocaine in their systems at the time of their death.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And the article also makes a lot about them being shoeless when they were found, despite the fact that it is neither relevant nor true.


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[Assistant] Before long, television news stations had picked up the stories, internet detectives were like a booming thing at the time, they were not just started, they were all focusing.


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[Assistant] So now the entire internet is shitting their pants over this false thing, and the entire press is shitting their pants over this false thing, and everybody's wondering what it means. It doesn't mean anything, because it's not true. And you're not focused on the right shit here. You're not focused on the fact that they are young, black men in marginalized, like high-risk, you know, areas, high-risk lifestyles, like dealing with


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[Assistant] Um, like basically the most vulnerable. Yeah. Essentially. Yeah. And it's like you're not.


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[Assistant] You're not focusing on, and many of them were part of the gay community, like you're not telling the right people.


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[Assistant] It's like that shows you that it's like they weren't focusing on what's important, keeping actual people safe.


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[Assistant] Now the decision to release or withhold information about public safety, like we've talked about before,


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[Assistant] I mean, it's based on a lot of factors that aren't always obvious or understandable to those outside of the investigation. It's just a fact of life.


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[Assistant] We've learned that time after time in many different cases. Oh yeah. And it's generally true, I will say, that an informed public will be better, you know, equipped to protect themselves in the event of an emergency. I fully believe that. Yeah.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But when attention isn't paid to the kind of information that the public is being given, mistakes can be made that can jeopardize the case and actually put more people at risk.


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[Assistant] And that's what happened here. I was worried that you were just gonna say that. They're not.


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[Assistant] It's just, you're not telling the right people what they need to hear.


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[Assistant] And you're missing out on entire communities of people that need to know that they are the ones that are being targeted. And like you said, like watch each other's backs. Yeaah. And the emphasis on the victims as black male drug dealers or users wasn't telling a complete story or an entirely accurate one. In fact, it misrepresented who was at risk.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Specifically, like I said, marginalized men and boys of color who either were


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[Assistant] At the time of his death, Mitchell Johnson was living on the streets in Kenner, where he was last seen by friends on the night of his murder.


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[Assistant] Johnson's friends told police that they'd seen quote, a suspicious guy cruising around the neighborhood around the time Johnson went missing.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, they described the man as a white male, mid thirties, receding hairline and puffy cheeks. That's exactly what Ronald Dominique looks like. Spot on. It wasn't much else of distinction to separate the suspect from hundreds of other puffy white dudes in their thirties living around New Orleans at the time.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Meanwhile, the coroner confirmed what police already more or less knew, that Mitchell Johnson had been raped and strangled before being dumped. Just feet from where Oliver LeBanks had been dumped. Wow. Now the murder of Mitchell Johnson seemed to support the belief among the press that there was indeed a serial killer operating in the suburbs of New Orleans.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And hoping to use the press to their advantage finally, police released a sketch of the man seen in the area that night that Johnson disappeared. And in their statement to the press, the suspect was described as quote, a serial killer targeting men in the area.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Rather than a serial killer targeting black and gay men, which investigators feared would negatively influence the public's desire to help.


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[Assistant] That's so fucked that they even had to consider that. We gotta do better everyone. Yeah.


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[Assistant] In that sense, this whole thing, they were trying to do the right thing by like, making sure the public would give a shit by not mentioning the details. But still, it's- But when you think of the actual-


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[Assistant] Ramifications of that whole thing? Right. It just makes you sick. Sure does. It really does.


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[Assistant] Now it's unknown whether Ronald Dominique even saw the article or the police sketch, but just after it ran in early November, he quit his job with the county and moved his trailer


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Within a few weeks, Ronald found work as a laborer at Karo Produce Company.


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[Assistant] The fact that this man was just handling people's produce too, like, something so disturbing about that.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now on January 1st, 2000, a driver called police in Lafourche Parish to report that they'd seen a man lying motionless by a barbed wire fence on the side of Highway 7.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] When police arrived at the site, they discovered the body of 23 year old Michael Vincent.


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[Assistant] Michael Vincent had a record that included some drug charges just to put him in that pattern. And he also had an unsettled way of living that again made him fit perfectly into Ronald's vulnerable victim profile.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The autopsy showed that he'd been bound at the wrists and suffered several abrasions, but the cause of death was most certainly, quote, homicidal asphyxiation.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, the murder was not connected to the other murders of gay men and sex workers in the other parishes, which is kind of wild.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I think it's because he was found further out from New Orleans. Okay. Maybe, I guess. But the investigation into Vincent's death would be further complicated by the fact that while Ronald Dominique may have ended the 20th century with yet another murder, two years would pass before he killed anyone again. Interesting. He took some time between them. Yeah. And that's where we're going to leave you here.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] We're gonna leave you with two years between killings and it's gonna get even, I mean.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, we are eventually going to, in Bayou Blue as well, there's murders there between 2003 and 2005. We're going to talk about each of the victims. Okay.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, and we're gonna talk about his arrest and the court case that followed.


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[Assistant] And eventually him going bye bye into prison forever. Good, I'm excited for that part. You have that to look forward to, but I think we'll leave off there.


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[Assistant] So we can all think about what the fuck we just listened to. Holy shit. And when we pick up, it's two years later. All right. Well, with that being said, we hope you keep listening and we hope you keep it weird. But not so weird that any of this because oh my God. Yeah.


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[Assistant] Thought that she was cursed had anything to do with that interest.


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[Assistant] So it does make you question it slightly. Absolutely. But we don't know.


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[Assistant] Seriously, like, this was already in her. Yeah. Somewhere. Somewhere.


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[Assistant] She's very clearly somebody who gets some kind of pleasure from murdering.


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[Assistant] And probably like, looked back on those items.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Awesome coffees, yum, you know, friendships.


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[Assistant] A bird flew in my house. And I think...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Well, when you said that, I was like, okay, well I'm choosing to look at it as a good omen, because I think that's like, you know, that's, that's it. I'm going to take it as a good omen.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And then all of a sudden we're in the middle of doing our recording thing and all of the alarms in my house start going off. And they're just going, fire, fire.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And we go and look into my in-law's side of the house. And John, I couldn't see it at first, but John looks out in there and says, Oh my God. And I was like, and in my head, I'm like, Oh my God, there's flames. Like half of our house is about to burn down. I was like, I was about to panic and I fully thought we


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So he was like, just get everybody out of here, I don't know what's going on. So he went running upstairs to see if something was setting this off, like what the hell's going on. We still don't know what's happening, we have a plumber here. And even the plumber was like, I don't know. Even the plumber was like, what the fuck is going on? But I figured it out.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I figured it out. So this is a real warning, it's a real lesson that we can all learn about manifesting things properly.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, always be detailed with your manifestations. I told you, didn't I tell you? I can get willy nilly a little bit about my manifestations, and this was one of them. So, I love Guillermo del Toro.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I just do, I promise this connects. I'm not just saying this out of joy.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But he famously has a rain room that he writes in. It like inspires him, the sound of rain. And you've been talking about this for like a year. Forever. And I've been talking about how, oh my goodness, I would love a rain room. Just someday I want my writing room to have like rain, you know, like it would be so inspiring because I love the rain and I love like gloomy weather. I've been saying I want a rain room.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] No, I just said a rain room, and you know what? A rain room I got.


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[Assistant] Although this sucks and I don't know what's going on here, I can't be mad because I think I did this, so. And I can't be mad because after


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So I apologize ahead of time. Trigger warning, we're talking about spelunking.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Claustophobia, you don't like it? This is gonna be tough for you. You should go. Uh, we're gonna be talking about Nutty Putty Cave and the death of John Edward Jones. This story is horrific. Horrific. Yeah.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Such a freak accident. You told me about this for the first time, I think, this past year. Yea. I hadn't heard of it before. Uhm, wow.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It's horrifying, uh, so, but we're going to get into it. We're going to talk a little bit about, um, obviously we're going to talk about this particular tragic death.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But we're also going to talk about some rescues that happened that ended with the people coming out alive, just so you can see how.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Treacherous this kind of thing is. And this cave in particular is a very challenging cave. Is it closed now? It is closed off now. But.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] This happens more often than not, not this particular thing, like, you know, this is horrific, but.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] People get caught a lot and have to be rescued and it's in there and a lot of people are inches from it becoming a tragedy. Spelunking is not for me, dog. So if you are a spelunker, just please be safe. Be careful. Be careful. I don't want you to get hurt. No, nobody does. This stressed me out so much and I'm like, I don't know any spelunkers, but if you're a listener and a spelunker,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Just fucking be careful. I'm worried about you, but I want you to have your experience. Just be safe, okay?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Discovered in Utah County in 1960, Nutty Putty Cave quickly became


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] One of the most popular destinations for cavers is what we can also call them. Uhm, amateur and professional. So.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] This is definitely what we'll get into soon is that this is a cave that is very much for professionals, but amateurs come a lot and they tend to be the ones that need to be rescued.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, it actually became kind of a bucket list cave of great difficulty. Like people, there was a time when it was like,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] If you don't hit nutty putty cave, like that's the one. Are you even a caver slash spelunker?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, but despite its popularity, beginning in the late 1980s, the cave became notorious for a number of explorers becoming trapped and requiring emergency assistance to escape.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Very twisty, very narrow, and poorly mapped passageways. Oh no.


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[Assistant] So, when Salt Lake City resident Dale Green discovered what is now known as the Nutty Putty Cave, he had no idea that he and his friends had stumbled upon what would become one of Utah's most famous and notorious cave systems.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] According to Green, a local rancher had actually noticed some irregularities, and he had noticed some warm vapors coming out of the ground on his property.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And this is, he discovered this and then he knew that green was an amateur caver. So he let him know that this could be an unknown cave.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The warm vapors are what tipped him off. He was like something could be happening under there. That's cool. You might wanna check this out.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Green told a reporter in 2009, everybody who goes through that cave comes out covered with clay. When we went in there was no sign whatsoever that anyone had been in there.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] A very popular destination for amateur and professional spelunkers and speleologists. Speleologists, that's fun to say. And a speleologist is just a scientist who studies caves and going into caves. It's all revolving around going into caves. Caves!


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And so this, so, you know, western Utah had become this very popular destination for them due to the large number of extensive cave systems there.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I'm so fascinated by it, but I'm, I'm like respectfully terrified by it. It's kinda like the ocean. I was literally just gonna say, like the ocean. There's too much unknown. I respect it. Yeah, absolutely. But I'm terrified of it. Correct. Caves, respect them. Terrified. Terrified of them.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But like many of the caves across the American West, Nutty Putty Cave is a solution cave. What's that? No, a solution cave is created when weakly acidic rainwater seeps through the soils and percolates through fractures in the bedrock and dissolves the rock.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But in the case of Nutty Putty Cave, the limestone was eroded from the bottom up.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So it's really fascinating. I was going to say we're in science class right now. It's really, really fascinating. Like thinking about water that has been boiled by deep within the earth. Yeah. Something about that is just like, whoa, like that's just like, that's just the planet.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now, in the process of its creation, the viscous clay within the cave wall gets heated and the process transforms from hard sedimentary rock into a squishy elastic substance.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now when they first emerged from the caves, Green, the guy we were talking about before, Green and his friends, began referring to this cave as Silly Putty Cave, because of that substance seeping out of the walls.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But eventually they started talking about it and saying it was called Nutty Putty Cave because they thought it sounded better. Okay. Which I kinda, I agree, Nutty Putty Cave sounds... Yeah, Nutty Putty's better than Silly Putty. Just got a good feel to it.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, as word about the cave made its way around the caving community.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The name stuck and it's been known as Nutty Putty Cave ever since.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now interestingly enough, Green and his fellow cave friends were not really impressed by this new cave. Really? At first. He said, quote, it didn't really have anything pretty in it, and there aren't a lot of places where you can stand up.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So you're just pretty much crawling around all the time and you get all muddy.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Strangely enough, despite all of this, it, like I said before, it became pretty popular with locals and cavers. And Green later recalled, I called it a date cave. The kids from BYU take dates out there.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Not for me, but for some people I guess, it's... Oh, the danger is romantic? No, I, ugh, this whole thing has really given me...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Wow. Uh, so, located just outside Salt Lake City on the western side of Utah Lake, the entrance to Nutty Putty Cave sits on Blowhole Hill in Utah County.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I mean, it sounds terrifying to me.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But I don't do tight spaces. Uh, you enter through a six foot wide opening and then you must climb down a fifteen foot drop.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I don't know, cause I just wouldn't be there. Mikey, what about you? Would you go left? You go right. Okay, right. Well that's the big slide.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] This is a fairly large chamber that leads down into a much tighter section of the cave known as the birth canal. You chose wrong! Which leads to even tighter sections, somehow, that are referred to as the aorta crawl and vein alley.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] They're named for their resemblance of the circulatory system.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But either way you go, the paths lead to a dead end, and the only way in and out are through the opening on Blowhole Hill, Hole Hill. Hate that. There's one way in, one way out. Oh, I don't like that at all.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now according to Brandon Koalas, who was one of the speleologists who surveyed Nutty Putty in 2003, the cave system gained popularity in the later decades of the 20th century because


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It was relatively easy to access and the fact that it kind of offered a challenge once you got in there.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] To more experienced cavers, that was really what the draw was. Okay. That you could access it very easily, but it was a challenge once you were in there. That makes sense. Koala said quote, the majority of it is not something you're going to get stuck in, but there are some spots, some nooks and crannies where people might try to challenge themselves by trying to squeeze through.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now by the early 2000s, officials at the School and Institutional Trust Lands Administration who own and manage the cave


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, in the surrounding land, they began getting nervous about the numbers of people that were traveling to Utah specifically to go into Nutty Putty Cave.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Thousands of people every year were coming for it specifically. Wow. And there were some who came that had very little experience and this is way too challenging cave for that. Right. In response, the trust turned over management of the cave system to the Timpanagos Grotto.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] A local chapter of the National Speleological Society.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] This group organizes expeditions, but they organize them with experienced professionals to guide you. Oh, okay. That's a good way to do it. By handing off the management to the grotto.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The Land Trust was hoping to avoid any accidents involving cavers who were just not experienced enough to traverse the Nutty Putty Cave without a guide.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So a grotto volunteer named John said in 2006,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] We were hoping that by limiting access to those with the proper gear, proper leadership, preparations, and the appropriate skills,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] We can make sure that only the most prepared people are going into that cave.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But there was still a rising number of incidents that were occurring every year and a source had to admit.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The tragic case of John Edward Jones in 2009, which we will get to, was a nationally shared story, but it was not the first of its kind to involve emergency rescue attempts for cavers in Utah.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] In the late 1990s and early 2000s, a number of incidents would cause Utah officials to


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Very much reconsider the state's approach to caving and spelunking enthusiasts. Really? And how they were gonna keep them safe.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] On July 27, 1999, Chris Marrow and Chris Hale, both 17 years old, spent the evening camped along the edge of Utah Lake.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And then the next morning they woke up and a little after 9am they made their way to Nutty Putty Cave.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now according to a spokesperson for the Utah County Sheriff's Department, both boys were well prepared. They had done these things before, not nutty putty cave, but they had caved before. Similar caving.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now they had made it through the initial drop and the big slide without any trouble. So when you say the initial drop.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Is that like you just slide down? I think you have to use gear to drop yourselves inside. Oh wow, okay, alright. Like I think it's that kind of drop. Gotcha. And then you, cave, that's the other thing.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The fact that people just do this is like really fascinating to me. I'm like, man, you are like a superhero to me. Like super brave. Cause I couldn't do it. I don't have the, I do not have the bravado to do it, the courage, and I don't have the skills or the strength for that matter.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I just couldn't, I don't have the mental strength.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I do not have the mental strength for that. And I think you need to be physically so strong.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, they literally have, I think, lower themselves down with like a pulley and everything like that and then...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Then you have to like pull yourself back up at the end. That's so scary. Yeah, it's like a lot. It's like, and that's the thing. It takes real physical strength. And like, I would think.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Agility of your mind, you know, to know where to put certain gear and- Oh yea, it's a skill set that I can't even fathom. It's really like, fascinating.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Um, but they made that initial drop, the big slide, they went down with no trouble and then they reached the birth canal around 10.30am. Okay. According to the sheriff's spokesperson,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] They were just too big for the area they tried to go through. Oh no. And both boys quickly found themselves stuck in the small opening about 120 feet underground. No, shut up. The spokesperson said the birth canal is a narrow part of the cave that leads to all kinds of interesting areas.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But the area is so tight hikers have to suck in their stomach and chest to get through. If you don't do it right, you get stuck.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I just had to take a deep breath. So rescue workers responded to the call for help that morning and spent nearly 12 hours.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Slowly wiggling each boy forward and chipping away small pieces of limestone to pull them through. Twelve hours.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] By around 10.30pm rescue workers had freed Chris Hale from the cave and Mara was pulled out a few hours later. So they both survived? They survived and physically they suffered only minor injuries and some abrasions but really it was just the fact that they spent 12 hours in a really stressful, scary,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] An uncomfortable situation, that was the real bummer here.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And it was wild because after the rescues were successful and it was clear that the boys were safe and relatively unharmed, the rescue workers kind of had a sense of humor about the whole thing.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I know, I feel like that, but I feel like people who are brave enough to do it in the first place always end up doing it again. Because I think they like...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] People who are brave and skilled enough to do it in the first place know what mistakes they made, so they're determined to do it again and not make those mistakes. That's true.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But who knows? Now a few years later in the summer of 2004, there was a situation that


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Didn't really inspire any lighthearted sighs of relief afterwards. 16 year old Brock Clark, who did live through this, but it wasn't as, it wasn't as like,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The first one was treacherous, it was scary, it took a long time. Obviously, I myself could not lay in any position for 12 hours and being stuck between rocks, so.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That was a horrific rescue as well, but this one was like, had a slightly different edge to it. Okay. So 16 year old Brock Clark.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It was Friday night when he and his friends had gone into the cave. It was late in August. They were planning to spend the afternoon in the cave and then just return home a few hours later.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] When they reached the entrance to the birth canal, Brock entered head first into the opening.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And was trying to lead his friends into the next chamber, because like we said before,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The birth canal leads into like the really cool parts of the cave. Yeaah. So you have to go through that to get to the cool ones.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But it was dark in that part of the cave and because of this Clark had taken, had been taken off course and ended up finding himself wedged into a small crevasse at a very downward angle and it was not the birth canal. It was like the wrong one.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And he realized he had made a mistake and in a panic, he tried to twist and wriggle his way out of the space.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] They got the sheriff's, uh, they went to the sheriff's department and got there around 6pm.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And rescuers followed them back into the cave. And it took a while to get to the area and hours later, they were still trying to slowly extract him from the place he was wenched in.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now, like I said, this whole situation seems similar to Hail and Marrow's upon first read, but it wasn't, it was basically that Hail and Marrow, the two 17 year olds, were essentially lying prone.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So they were lying in a regular laying down position, face down. They weren't tilted at an angle, they were just laying down. Okay.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Personally, mentally, I don't know if I could have gotten through that the way that they did for 12 hours, so I'm saying that for sure. But this just happened to have the added tragedy of him being tilted.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And also, he was in that downward angle position and his left leg was like brutally pinned up behind him. So blood had rushed to his head for hours. And because his leg was pinned, circulation had been disrupted on the entire left side of his body.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So when he was taken from the cave after 12 plus hours, he couldn't walk or stand without help.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And fortunately, Brock Clark survived his terrifying ordeal, but...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It was really situations like this and the other ones like Hail and Marrow that earned this, this particular section of Nutty Putty the name the Scout Eater.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The Scout Eater? Yeah. That's so upsetting.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now, just a few weeks after Clark's horrific incident, 23 year old David Crowther, a Brigham Young University student,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Became stuck between two large rocks in Nutty Putty after he and a group of friends went to explore the cave late one evening.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Once they realized they couldn't move him, his friends called for help and rescue workers were able to use an air chipper to free him after more than seven hours.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It's hours and hours of you being stuck wherever you're stuck.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And I think that's unfortunately what happened.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That ends up what happens to John Jones, because eventually he realizes, like, I'm gonna die here, aren't I?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And it's like they- and they couldn't help him. It's just like- That just made my heart sink. It's awful.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So, according to the National Speleology Society, an average of about 2 million people visit caves annually across the United States. Most of them go, quote, on low-risk expeditions or on guided cave tours.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Of those roughly 50 per year require emergency assistance after getting trapped. And interestingly, 83% of those are men.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now, given the large number of visitors to America's cave systems every year, serious and or fatal incidents are, you know, they're pretty infrequent, relatively. But they tend to be so shocking when they do happen that they prompt calls for officials to take action.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] In Utah, it wasn't just the incidents of emergency rescue that were raising alarms, but the general conditions of the caves themselves as well. John Jasper told a reporter in 2005,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But Jasper was like, no, in addition to it being challenging and very difficult.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The behavior of the visitors was creating unsanitary conditions that also posed a serious problem.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And he said, if there's a death, the state officials would probably be on the ball to close it immediately. And he was correct.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] had prompted a number of complaints to state officials. Many people started demanding that Nutty Putty Cave be closed to the public.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] School and Institutional Trust Lands Administration representative Gary Bagley said, quote, closing the cave is one of the options.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But obviously the trust would have preferred that another organization just take over management of it and actually keep the cave open.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But as far as Bagley and the Trust were concerned, Nutty Putty Cave had become more of a liability than it was really worth. That's what it sounds like to me. And they were like, we don't necessarily want it to be closed off to everybody or, you know, just like sealed off.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] They kind of want to direct their resources into an, you know, something that was a little more profitable and less, like, you know.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Dangerous. Like there was a lot of liability involved with this and they were like, I don't know if this is really something we're really prepared to handle. Like I don't think we have the resources.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Like in simple terms, the school and institutional trust lands administration.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Because honestly, by 2005, Nutty Putty was receiving more than four thousand visitors per year.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Whoa. Which is nearly twice that of any other cave in Utah. That's insane. But Jasper estimated only about 1% of them were properly equipped to enter the cave.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] One percent of visitors were properly equipped to enter the cave. Yikes.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So the issue of public safety came up again a few minutes later, I mean a few months later. Oh, okay. Uhm, though this time it was under unfortunate circumstances. Oh no. Now, this is really awful. So on August 17th, 2005, Jennifer Gilbrace and a group of five


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Friends went out to explore the caves under Y Mountain in Provo, Utah.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now across western Utah, there's a lot of old mine shafts that have been out of use for nearly a century and they are literally all over the landscape and they can look very much like cave systems. Oh, but they're like super dangerous. They pose.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That evening, Jennifer and her friends decided to enter a cave known as the Cave of Death. Oh. Which is in fact, not a cave at all.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It's an abandoned mine entrance that dead ends a few hundred feet in.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Of the five friends, only one, Joseph Ferguson was like,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The other four went in, the several hundred feet in.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now when nobody had returned for several hours, Joseph began to panic. Oh no, and he's just sitting outside this mine entrance alone. Yeah. And he called police who put together a rescue team to find the four friends in the shaft.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] When they found Jennifer and her friends in the lower part of the mine, they were all dead. The exact cause of death is unknown.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] According to rescuers quote, the guide rope was reportedly intact.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Cold water, lack of air, or a hangup might have caused their deaths, although they couldn't be certain about what happened.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So officials theorized that maybe after lowering themselves into the shaft, Jennifer and her friends became trapped in a very small space that regularly flooded with water.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And so they panicked and were unable to reverse their course and it's believed that they couldn't find their way out and probably suffocated due to limited oxygen in the pool.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It wasn't always a permanent solution. Provo Mayor Lewis Billings told reporters there are mines all over these mountains. The problem with sealing up caves or mines is that it often makes the curious explorer even more so.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] A prime example is the Spanish moss cave, which has a steel door. People have been so curious that they dug underneath it to get in.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You gotta know if something is sealed off like that, leave it alone. It's like when we open up like a sarcophagus that's been like under


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I don't know. I don't know. Some things just don't give, they don't pass the vibe check in a closed off mine or a closed off cave system.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I'm like, isn't that every disaster movie ever? No! Stop doing it! Uh, but of course we're kidding, science forever. Yea, no, science absolutely. But don't go into sealed off places like this. No. It's dangerous. Yea, and I don't know about worms. And I don't know about worms. Just for the record. I mean, read the truth.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, well no one had died in Nutty Putty Cave since the early 1990s. It was clear to officials that the popular cave system posed


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Very serious risks to specifically inexperienced and unprepared spelunkers and cavers. Yeah, cause by the way, 1% of 4,000 is 40. Yeah.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It took me a minute to figure that out. That's the amount of people.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] If you're experienced and you're ready to take on the risk and you know what you're getting into and you go with the proper equipment.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That's on you man, like you accept the risks, you know that, like, and hopefully you're safe and all that good stuff. Totally. But if you're inexperienced...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Like this is just really, really scary and challenging.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, but in May 2006, the School and Institutional Trust Lands Administration, SITLA.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Sitla. Uhm, installed a large gate to discourage visitors from going in until, and they basically were doing that.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Until we figure out what's gonna happen to the future of this cave.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And basically the SITLA did not possess the resources to provide visitors a safe, spelunking, caving experience. That seems to be the theme of all of this. And what he said was, I don't think liability, and I do appreciate this part of what they said, I really think they meant this.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He said, I don't think liability is an issue at all. And he said, but I do believe that we don't want to tell somebody that their son or daughter died in our cave.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Fully like profitability and all that. They were like no, what we really don't want is to have to go to somebody's parents and say your kid is dead in our cave. Yeah, who wants to do that?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now, while most people understood this idea to seal off unsafe mines, people were down for that. They were like, mines, like, yeah, totally. Closing off access to mines, to like, access to caves, they were mad about, was a controversial matter. People stand on two very different sides.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And they tried many, many times and people, unfortunately we are a species that


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And that is not what happened in the case. It's really not what happened in any of these cases, especially the ones in the Nutty Pitty Cave and the one of John Jones. They were spunking.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] They were, you know, they were experienced, they knew what they were doing, and it was just freak accidents, and it was getting turned around, it was that kind of thing. And that's the thing, look, look what even happens to experienced people.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You don't know what to do because it's like you do need cave systems for like scientific research. There's so much we don't know and it's like you don't want to seal that off and just be like, well, I guess we'll never know.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] To take over management of Nutty Putty Cave.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Um, and also some other cave systems on the property. And anyone interested in venturing inside?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] They now said that they needed to contact the grotto, submit an application for entry into the cave,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Essentially acknowledging the risks and proving that they were experienced enough to manage the expedition. I was waiting for that, like some kind of release. Which that makes sense.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And Ackland said, we've attempted to manage the risk, but we're unable to manage the gamblers. And that is no truer statement has been said. Yeah.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] All we can do is manage the risk. People are going to gamble. And that's just the way it is. And he said he was referring gamblers as people who continued to enter the cave without the permissions and waivers required. Okay. And honestly, at this point, I don't know what else they could do.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So on the afternoon of November 24th, 2009, 26-year-old John Jones and a large group of friends and family arrived at the entrance of Nutty Putty Cave.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] They were super excited to explore this notorious cave.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] John and his brother Josh and his family had grown up in Stansberry Park, Utah.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So they had spent a lot of time together as kids exploring the Utah Caves and cool places all over the state. Okay. Utah is way cooler than I knew. Oh, Utah is super cool. I didn't know a lot about Utah to be honest. There's so much history in Utah cause it's like one of the, I think it's like one of the oldest.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But John had moved to Virginia for med school two years earlier, and so he hadn't been in a cave in years, and especially not one as challenging as Nutty Buddy.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He had also married his long time girlfriend, Emily, and together they had a one year old daughter together. And Emily was also pregnant and due with a baby that June.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So his trip back to Utah for Thanksgiving was kind of an opportunity for John to.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Reconnect with his group of friends and hang out with his family and all doing the thing that they had once loved to do together. Yeaah. Like adventure.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And so the group reached the entrance to the cave around 8pm and spent some time exploring the big slide.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Before John, Josh, and two other members of the group separated from the others to go to search more challenging sections of the cave.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So they didn't have a guide, and they didn't have a proper map. So they only had a vague idea of where the birth canal was located.