[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Like I would never think to do something like that. It kind of worked. It makes sense. Like it was a, this is what I mean, like he's a fucking idiot, but he's- But he's cunning. But unfortunately he's smart when it comes to fucking terrible shit. It's like street smarts. Yeah.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now, with Pitesel dead and murdered and the scene looking to be an accident, he rushed back to the apartment and told Georgiana that he closed the deal on the copiers and they would be leaving for Indianapolis immediately. So he'd already set that whole thing up.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He also told her that if anyone asked, she should tell them that they were bound for Harrisburg, Pennsylvania.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And he explained this by saying that the St. Louis St. Louis stuff wasn't fully settled, and if too many people knew where they were, he could be arrested again.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So off the, and she was like, okay. So off they went that evening and they boarded the 10.25 PM train to Indianapolis.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now two days later, Pitezel's body was discovered by Eugene Smith, who was a local inventor in the area who'd been in to talk to and see B.F. Perry, Pitezel, a week or so earlier.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now he had stopped in to speak with Perry a few times since the man had opened the patent laboratory. And he was really excited because they had kind of talked about him making money off of some of his inventions. Now they were going to patent some of them.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So the morning of September 4th, he tried to walk into the patent office to speak to him, but the door was locked.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] This was strange to him because it was during working hours, so he called the police. They sent officer George Lewis and he broke down the door.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He found Benjamin Pitesel's rotting body on the second floor of the apartment. And as far as anyone knew, B.F. Perry was last seen alive on Saturday, September 1st. That's when the last people had seen him alive besides Holmes.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I think it was a delivery boy that had brought a message that day that was the last person who had seen him.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That message that was brought to him, it's like even worse, because that was a telegram they believe from Carrie Pitesell informing them of Wharton's illness. So they think the last person to see him besides Holmes was that little message boy, the telegram boy, and that telegram was the real telegram saying that Wharton was sick.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Um, Pitesel was discovered, quote, lying on his back on the floor with his right hand clasped over his heart and what appeared to be blood about his head.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Um, given the way that the scene looked to detectives, it was pretty much assumed that he had been holding in his right hand a bottle of benzene and was in the act of lighting his pipe when a terrible explosion occurred, knocking him to the floor.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, the body was bred in for an autopsy in the corner.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He was not so sure. He could not identify the cause of death. He was like, I can't say for sure what this cause of death is. I feel like it could be something else.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I think it was like, I don't know if it was because it meant like, uhm, it would look like he inhaled the chloroform when that happened. He did it too close to the liquids.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] His tongue was swollen and stuck out of his mouth and red fluid issued from his mouth. Any little pressure on the stomach or over the chest here would cause this fluid to flow more rapidly.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It just didn't make sense to him as it was being presented as an accident.


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[Assistant] He said the state of the room didn't really jive with him either, he thought it was very staged, didn't look like an explosion caused everything, he said it looked like somebody had just thrown shit around.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But it was the chloroform in the stomach that actually set off the most alarm bells. That I had a feeling, cause it's just random as fuck. So yea, so uhm, as a coroner, he was aware that if Pitezel had ingested the chloroform before his death,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The harsh chemical would have caused a lot of irritation to the stomach lining. But when the stomach contents was observed, there was no irritation.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now, Scott couldn't be certain what specifically had caused the man's death because it was so badly disfigured, but they were pretty sure it had happened suddenly and was not the result of an explosion.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now despite this testimony by this coroner, the jury delivered quote, a verdict of death from inhalation of flames or from some poison, the character of which is unknown.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Well and what's worse is his body was held at the morgue for a few days and then it was just buried in an unmarked potter's grave.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Cause nobody knows he's Pitesel. So at the time, it's kind of seeming like his plan is going to work here.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Holmes is on his way back from Indianapolis to St. Louis, St. Louis now, where he's going to meet Carrie Pitezel.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So Holmes decided to just lie to Carrie and insisted that her husband was actually alive.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] They said we need to get the $10,000 first once we get that from the insurance, then he'll come out of hiding. And then he said, but in order to do that, someone has to go to Philadelphia and claim the body.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now Carrie was concerned about traveling to St. Louis, from St. Louis, St. Louis to Philadelphia because her child is sick.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And also, he didn't want her to go there because that could muddle some things. So he was like, who can we get that can be like a little bit.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And he even claimed that the girl could stay with his cousin. No. Minnie Williams. No, no, no, no, no, no, she's dead. Yep. While she was in Philadelphia.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] This way, he could still stay on track to get the money from insurance.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So six days after his death, Fidelity Mutual Insurance received a telegram reporting that the dead man from Philadelphia known as B.F. Perry was probably Benjamin Pytzel. This is so much, how did you even fucking research this? It's insane. And they said, Benjamin Pytzel has actually a large insurance policy with your insurance company.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So the death was still looked at as suspicious, so agents at Fidelity Mutual were like, we would like a little more information before we pay out this policy. Right.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So they looked further and saw that the only other name listed on the policy was H.H. Holmes. His actual name. His actual name. So they went about finding Holmes and to do this they sent a letter to Myrta in Wilmette. His wife.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now Holmes replies to the Fidelity Insurance Company and tells the agent that he'd only just learned that the body was in Philadelphia. So he said, I'll go there immediately and we will identify this man and get back to you. Okay.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now again, Holmes wouldn't allow Carrie to identify the body, and Carrie really didn't want to leave her kid anyway. And she probably wouldn't have wanted to see that body. Yeah, so he told the, he told the insurance company that he, she was too ill to come, and you know, he was gonna have to go. But they were like, no, you can't just go.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And that's when they were like, you need to bring a family member. And he was like, I'll bring Alice. Especially because he's the one listed. So of course he's going to be like, yeah, that's him. Yeah, that's totally fine.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] On September 20th, Holmes met Alice Pitezel in Jepta Howe in Philadelphia, and she wrote a letter to Carrie, her mother later, and she said of meeting Holmes, she referred to him as Mr. Howard.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] She said, quote, I don't like him to call me babe and child and dear and all such trash. She's like, fuck this guy. She thought he was a pig. Like she knew right away. She had his number. Yep. A few days later, Alice and how the lawyer show up at the fidelity mutual office. Holmes joins them there.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And they all provided the agents with, like, some, like, um, notable, like, things that would, that would basically identify, but yea, exactly, I was trying to think of the word.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, that would identify this as Benjamin Pytel. Okay.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, things of this were, uh, like he had a mole on his back, he had a scar on his leg, he had a twisted fingernail that had occurred out of an accident. Oh, that's interesting. And he had very unusual dentition. He had a lot of spaces in his teeth. Oh, okay. So a lot of very particular things.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Really? It's a nice word, it feels like. Dentition. Dentition. You have a nice dentition over there. Anything that ends in shun, I always feel has a nice like, hm.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The body had been exhumed now, uh, and when they got to the cemetery, uh, it had been moved to a shed and was being examined by Dr. Maddern. Nice. In the shed. And that happened a lot.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Dr. Mattern was the other coroner who was with Dr. Scott that did the original autopsy.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Um, by that time, his remains were in an advanced state of decomposition. One would think. And they were given the description, the unique marks on the body. But Matern insisted the state of the remains kind of made it impossible to positively identify the body.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] At one, at one point the doctor couldn't find the big scar that they were talking about that was supposed to be on his leg. Holmes was present for this.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And he got frustrated and impatient, and he grabbed the leg apparently.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Rubbed the flesh so that the burned layer of skin moved away, and then revealed the scar.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He's a fucking monster. And then was like...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Do you see? This is Benjamin Peitzel, we told you. Like, was pissed and was like, here it is, I figured it out. Oh my god. Who? Who? Who does that? Show us how money hungry you are.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yep. And they were like, okay, cool that you think it's him. Alice, what do you think? You're the determining factor. Right. If you say this is not your father, it's not. She must have been scared. Yeah. So apparently, again, Pitesel had that unique set of teeth. Yeah. So uhm, a lot of spaces which were very easily identifiable.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And apparently Dr. Maturn was the only one who actually gave a shit about Alice and they had to present this body to her and have her look at the teeth. And they said before doing that,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He removed quote, as well as he could, everything that was repulsive from the mouth. And then he asked Salas to look at the teeth and.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] She said she looked into his mouth and she told the doctor that the teeth, quote, appeared to be like her papa's.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now the agents from Fidelity Mutual waited a full day and then they let Alice and Howe know that they found Alice's identification satisfactory.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So typically these kind of claims are very slow and methodical to be processed.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But, lawyer Howe there, he appealed to the agents and he said the Pite cells are very poor, they have a sick kid, they could use the money as soon as possible. Can you, can you expedite it?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So after a little discussion, they agreed to pay the claim immediately and they took out any of the costs that they had to use to identify the remains.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] They were like, some shit is going down. The break room was popping off at lunch. The water cooler was bubbling. The coffee was filled to the brim. They were all like, something stinks here. They're like, you wanna go to the pub later to talk about this shit? Seriously. So right away, a check was written to Carrie Pytzel, but that check was given right to Holmes.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And the check was in the amount of $9,715.85 because they took out the cost that they had to use to exhume and identify the body. But back then that must have been so much money. A lot of money. So with that check, Holmes immediately boarded a train for St. Louis, St. Louis, and he was going to deliver that check to Carrie, but have her immediately give the money back to him. So he wrote a letter to the company also, by the way, and he wrote it as Carrie thanking them for the prompt payment.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah. Holmes told his brother he'd been on a trip to Minneapolis in 1888.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now, when Holmes c- arrived in St. Louis, St. Louis, with the money from the insurance payout, he gave $2,500 to Jephtihow as payment.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And he said that the remaining 6,700 for himself was because her husband had owed him money and had outstanding debts and that was, he was going to take it. What a piece of absolute dumb.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Is Carrie's husband, Benjamin, now has to be in hiding.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And they have to go get him out of hiding, but he's still in hiding right now. And she's got five kids that she's trying to support that now she has like almost no income doing. So she's panicking. She's like, I can't do this. And home's like,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You know what? It might be better if, uh, I took your 12 year old Nellie and your 8 year old Howard and they could come live with their sister Alice in Indiana for a little while. And they can be looked after by my cousin Minnie Williams. Who's dead. Until Benjamin comes out of hiding and then you can all re-


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Rejoined together. So what you're telling me is he was like, I'm gonna kill these kids.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And he sent a telegram to Alice in Indianapolis telling her to be ready to leave the following day because they were going to go stay in Indiana, they were going to go stay with Minnie Williams. Now, on September 28th, Alice met Holmes and her two younger siblings at the train station in Indianapolis, and the four of them went to Cincinnati.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Okay. I know. Now we're in Ohio. Once there, he registered at the Atlantic House under the name Alexander Cook. And he got the kids settled, and then he wired Georgiana and asked that she come to join them all.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So he explained that he had come into some money, cause remember Georgiana was staying with some family in Indiana.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So he explained that he had come into some money from someone purchasing the land in Fort Worth. Okay.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I know there's a lot, that's what I mean when I say I'm not cramming everything into one episode because there's enough with just this. No there is. Just enough places, enough people, he's traveling everywhere.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Any other places? Colorado, Chicago, Texas, Indiana, Cincinnati, St. Louis. See, what I knew of the H.H. Holmes story was just the Murder Castle. Just Chicago. Like that's all I knew. Cause he's known as like the Chicago serial killer. But really he was the everywhere killer. He was. Now it was at this time that Holmes was becoming


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Really paranoid. I can, as you can imagine, a lot is being piled on now. And I feel like he let too many people in on the schemes. Way too many people. He's done it across way too many states. He's caused way too many


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Wires to cross. He's been in jail a few times now. Yeaah, he's starting to crack a little bit. And according to Adam Seltzer, who we linked that source in the show notes,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Holmes claimed that he received tips that detectives were on his tail. Right. And it was starting to get to him. I don't know how much he knew.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Whether he was, you know, just operating purely out of paranoia, or he was actually like had the facts, but he was being pursued by a lot of different agencies, so. I believe it. And now the Fidelity Mutual Insurance Company?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] This telegram was from Lawrence Harrigan, who was the chief of the St. Louis St. Louis Police.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] This telegram from the Chief of Police was letting him know that a prisoner in St. Louis, St. Louis had come forward with information that basically alluded to the fact that the Fidelity Insurance Company had recently been defrauded in a big way. I knew that motherfucker.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yep, in the letter, the telegram gave all the details of the scheme that Holmes had told him about how they were going to fake Pitesell's death for money. And at the time, he had offered HedgePeth $500.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] For his part in it, which would be to recommend an attorney of ill repute, which he did.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But detectives did believe him in the details he gave and the superiors at Fidelity Mutual


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] They thought actually that hedgepeth may be lying.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, in a few days had passed before they finally were willing to believe this and that they were like, you know what, we're going to give W.E. Gary the detective for fidelity insurance. Thank you. They're going to give him approval to pursue homes. But it took a few days for them to like investigate it.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Cause they had just paid this out. They don't want to believe that they just got fucked over. Yeah, that's a lot of money. So they looked into it and they were like, I think this guy is telling the truth. Yeah, what'd you say? It was like nine thousand.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, but Holmes had been lucky that his previous issues with the law were under so many aliases, and there had been so much time between them that they were kind of tough to connect the dots. But this scheme was so fresh and so big that it was much easier to trace, and he had left too many missing pieces. So now Detective Gary is on Holmes' tail. And he, Holmes,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And they registered them as the canning children when they put them in the hotel. Weird. A few days later he moved them again, this time to the Circle House, which was another hotel in the city. He's like shuttling them everywhere.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Many mul- like law enforcement agencies, many. A multitude. He made time during this whole thing to attempt another scam. What?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] While they were in Indianapolis, homes in Georgiana began touring properties with a realtor. This realtor thought that they were a couple who wanted to buy a house in the city. Yeah.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] This sounded insane to me when I read it, but apparently the bank had already approved this exchange, like in reality. Weird.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The problem however, was that the offer had an October 10th expiration date. Okay. And the property wouldn't have officially been accessible to Georgiana until her 25th birthday, which was not until October 17th. Oh shit. So Holmes abandoned the realtor and never went through with the plan.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But he was planning to try to go through with this before it was going to be legal.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And after he was arrested, the realtor who was scammed here told the press, quote, Holmes was a good looking fellow, but had a kind of uneasy look in his eyes.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So he tried to fuck over this other person while he's on the run, like, the heat is on. The heat is, like, the heat is on. It's more than on. Yeah, it's real on.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Well, he toured the city with Georgiana trying to set up some other schemes. The Peitzel children were just spending their time in a hotel room alone. That's so sad. And during this time, they were writing daily to their mom in St. Louis at St. Louis, and they were concerned because they never received anything back.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Carrie Pitesell had been writing to her children. She had written back to every single letter. Holmes just kept them.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I feel as though it's gonna escalate. I just can't believe that's their last days.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Reelty. Reelty. Reelty. Why can I not say that word? That tri-


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And he started making arrangements to rent a house, called the Lancaster House. It was a small cottage on Union Avenue. I would not rent that house. He got very hostile, which was rare for him to do in public, because remember, he is Mr. Cool, calming, collected. Losing it now, at this point.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, because he was demanding the keys be given to him now. And he was like, I'm in a big hurry, I need them now, I'm not going through any of the shit I have to go through, like lost his mind. And the realtor, there you go, later said quote, I remember the man very well, because I did not like his manner. I felt that he should have had more respect for my gray hairs. That's amazing.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But a few days later, Holmes had a large oak stove delivered to Lancaster House, because he did rent it, and also dropped off a case of surgical tools.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] In town to be sharpened. A large oak stove and sharpened surgical tools. That sounds normal. So everything's fine.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, in the afternoon, like in early October, Holmes brought Howard Pitesell in his trunk of belongings. Howard is the ten-year-old son.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And he said, he, he like poisoned him. Yea, essentially. And he said, as soon as he had ceased to breathe, I cut his body into pieces that would pass through the door of the stove and by the combined use of gas and corn cobs and proceeded to burn it with as little feeling as though it had been some inanimate object.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] What the fuck. That was his own confession. That's a 10 year old. I poisoned this 10 year old boy.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And there was also, uhm, he had purchased a cocaine solution from a pharmacist a few days earlier.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, once he had disposed of Howard's body, he went back at the train station by 9pm. So that all happened within an hour, according to him.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And he got his mail, and he boarded a train for Chicago.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So the next day, and I don't know what he did there, but he returned to Indianapolis the next day.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And he got Georgiana and the other children and put them on separate trains, Georgiana on one, children on the other, bound for Detroit.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And they went a few blocks away and checked Nellie and Alice into the new western hotel. Then the next day they moved them to a boarding house run by a woman named Ray, uhm, May Ralston.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Holmes was definitely starting to fray at the seams. He was starting to come apart.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The children were starting to lose it, being alone all the time, not understanding where Howard is now, not understanding what's going on. He's dragging them all over the place, leaving them all alone for days at a time.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] When they got there, he goes, oop, sorry, can't reunite you yet because it's like too heavily populated here, so you're gonna have to wait a little longer.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Oh my god, he is just fucked up. A few days after coming to Detroit, he rented a small house on East Forest Avenue, which he told the landlord was for his sister and her children. Which he was probably going to pass Georgiana and the kids off. Yup.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, he then dug a four foot by three foot hole in the backyard.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Okay, neighbors noticed. So this was clearly where he was intending to kill Alice and Nellie.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] No one is sure why, but he decided not to murder the girls there at this time. Instead, he told Carrie Pitesell that Benjamin was waiting for her now in Toronto, Canada, and she should travel there.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And he was going to, and so he sent Alice and Nellie back to Indianapolis where they were going to be waiting for them when she and Benjamin returned from Canada. Okay.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] This is when Carrie was like, what the fuck is going on? And she was concerned. And this is when she was like, where the fuck are my kids? Like, where are they? And he was like, don't worry, they're being cared for by a widow lady.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But he wouldn't give any more details. Yeah, that sounds totally fine.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He's just sending her up there, he's sending, he doesn't know what he's, he was just making a bunch of lateral loops. Yea, and he was definitely intending to kill Nellie and Alice in that house in Detroit, but then he didn't, I don't know why. I wonder if one of the neighbors like came by or something. I wonder if a neighbor saw him digging, you're right, and was like, hey what are you doing? What's that about? And he was like, oh nothing.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But Detective Gary had enlisted- Why is that so funny? And Detective Gary is like the real MVP here because he got the Pinkerton Detective Agency on the case. Shit. And they had made a lot of progress in finding Holmes. They'd narrowed him down to the Detroit area.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And this is why I believe maybe he left, like it could have been that he was planning to kill them. Or the police were coming in hot. But I think they came a little hotter. Sure.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I don't know how aware he became of that situation, but the, but thinking now like the fact that he moved so quickly out of there, I think he was tipped off somehow. And that's probably why he abandoned the whole plan. Maybe he saw some kind of police presence. He could have. So they made it to Canada.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And as soon as they got there, Holmes checked Carey and Wharton into the Union House under the name Mrs. Adams. Then he disappointed them again, and he said, Ooh, you just missed, Benjamin.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He said Benjamin had received word of detectives looking for him in the city, and he had actually fled to Montreal now.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The house had been rented on a six month lease and the neighbors later told investigators they thought it was real strange that the man had rented the entire house, yet he only had a bed frame, a trunk, and a mattress a dog wouldn't even sleep on.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Before they went back to Toronto and checked into the Palmer House Hotel as H. Howell and wife. Well the Palmer House is super haunted. There you go. Probably from him. Probs. So on October 24th, Holmes went to the house on Vincent Street where he put Nellie and Alice.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] After he did this, he went back to Carrie Pitesell and told her, oh shit.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Howard's not there yet, and he said, oh, you gotta go to Ogdensburg, New York because Benjamin had fled there now.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Strangely, when he confessed to this, he was less sensational than he normally is. Really?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The story of Nellie and Alice's murders is less dramatic and less like, he was less excited to tell this story, I feel.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] This is pretty awful. It sounds like it will be. He wouldn't explain how, but he got both girls in the trunk. Alive. Alive. And he quote, ended their lives by connecting the gas with the trunk.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So he then took them out of the trunk, he stripped them of their clothing, then buried their bodies in the grave in the basement in the Vincent house.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Well and what's worse is so you listen to that story and you're like, that's fucking terrible. But Adam Selser, he says there's a problem with that story.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And he said he did kill these little girls. Of course. But that house on Vincent Street was not set up for gas.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And so he says the claim of poisoning them with gas was probably not true unless he did it somewhere else. Okay. And then what's...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Worse is that he was like, he probably poisoned their food like he did Howard, but then he just told this story. That's even worse. Which is even worse, and he's like, I don't-


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[Assistant] From something that's even gross, like still gross, is like, you just wanted to tell that story? Like what the fuck is wrong with you?


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[Assistant] So large pieces of clothing were still in there even after the fire went out. Oh damn, and he didn't realize it? No. Also the stupid idiot hadn't even been very thorough when he gathered up their belongings because he had ended up leaving several of Alice's belongings, including a bag, out in the apartment when he left. And you can't imagine she even


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[Assistant] No, exactly. By the time the new tenants arrived a few days later, they found the random clothing scraps and remnants left behind, but by this point, Holmes was back and he had already left Toronto and he wasn't coming back. And is he, sorry, is he the landlord of that house or no? He just rented it? No, he just rented it. Just to do that.


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[Assistant] Now eventually this man would tell so many stories about the missing children, it would be almost like, it's like, it's something out of fiction.


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[Assistant] He would say Benjamin, Benjamin the father was in South America, he told Carrie the kids were in South America, he told them now they were in Chicago, in Detroit, they were in England, they were anywhere else but reality. He was just driving her insane. Yea, he was trying to drive her insane.


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[Assistant] He should have stayed in Canada, and he didn't. Okay, I'm happy to know that. Once he returns to the United States,


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[Assistant] That's when shit is going to go down for him. And I don't want to start the going down process. I would like episode 5 to just be us all high fiving in the fact that this motherfucker gets got.


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[Assistant] He's leaving Toronto, he's leaving Canada, he's coming back to the United States like a big fucking idiot. He has killed kids in Canada, he has killed kids in the United States, he has killed women in the United States, he has now killed a man in the United States, and he's coming back. And the Pinkerton Detective Agency guys?


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[Assistant] So we're going to talk about his arrest, we're going to talk about the trial, we're going to talk about the wild confession, and we're going to talk about the theories that he is Jack the Ripper, which I don't agree with. But the theories, when you put them out there,


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[Assistant] You can understand why people are interested at least. They are slightly compelling. Okay.


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[Assistant] Very interesting, and we're gonna talk about his execution. Ah. It's all coming in part five. It's all happening, Sheena Shay. The end. The climax of this series is part five. My goodness. Yeah. Alright, well.


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[Assistant] Commence? Commence? Yeah. Let the games- Let the games begin. Yeah, I don't know, bye.


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[Assistant] We had the finale of Vanderpump Rules last night. I know some of you are like skip, skip, skip and that's okay. But for those of you who partake, those of you who celebrate, was that or was that not the most infuriating thing you've


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[Assistant] He's a lot, they're both really disgusting.


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[Assistant] The way he talked to Ariana last night, I was like, Ariana, you...


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[Assistant] Watching Ariana on Watch What Happens Live. In the revenge dress of the century. I showed John and I was like, I was like, tell me this isn't a goddess that we should like worship at her feet.


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[Assistant] They always cheat down. Always! But like, how do you even cheat? Period. And remember, I, I think I asked my ex-boyfriend straight out, cause he was like a big old cheater, and I asked him one of the times, cause I was like, I just really like to get insight on this, cause like, I've never actually met somebody that does this kind of heinous shit.


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[Assistant] Yeah, I was like, so can I interview you real quick? I was like, why, uh, why that girl? Like, what's that about? And he literally said, I was like, why is it always like, this is making me feel uncomfortable? And he was like, yeah, it's just really, he's like, it's easy. It's easier.


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[Assistant] That just right up, like just, I don't want to have to work for the cheating. No, it's so true.


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[Assistant] They'll work to continue it, but they don't want to work to have to get it started.


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[Assistant] And Sandoval did not work to get this started. I mean, Rachel was ready and willing to start this whole thing.


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[Assistant] Don't worry, we'll get to the case, but we just gotta spout this out. One of my favorite parts was that it definitely was Ariana's fault because she was just never in a place for him to tell her.


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[Assistant] That he was cheating on her for seven months? The vibes were never right. But he literally said she was just never open to hearing it.


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[Assistant] I'm sorry, when are you open to hearing that your partner of almost 10 years has been having an affair with one of your best friends for 7 months?


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[Assistant] A large hunting knife? As a backup plan? Your backup plan is to stab this man hand to hand combat with a hunting knife? And you're worried about shooting him?


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[Assistant] You can tell that these are just kids. Kids.


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[Assistant] That's what's crazy to me is he had no idea these kids were driving around just waiting.


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[Assistant] Oh yea, you paying these two kids for literally no reason at all is not suspicious. Yea, that wouldn't be suspicious at all. Yea, it's just the amount, that's all. That's crazy, you're insane.


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[Assistant] Like that's really awful. It's terrible. And just him saying like, don't hurt me, and him saying like, where's the dog, like worrying about everything else around it. Like I just, ugh, that's like really gut wrenching. That's the perfect word.


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[Assistant] I'm like, you're disgusting for like play, play acting. Like, oh yeah, I'm actually looking forward to it. It's like, fuck you dude. Okay, tough guy.


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[Assistant] That's the thing, like, this should have been, like, these, if these little boys, and that's the worst part about this, these children, had the wherewithal or the, you know, any kind of moral compass here to stop and go,


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[Assistant] I can't do this. I was sent here to kill you. And I don't want to do it. And I was sent here by your wife. So you need to get the fuck out of this marriage. And we gotta go away. Like, Greg would be alive.


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[Assistant] What the fuck were we thinking agreeing to do this? They can take their consequences, but it wouldn't have been the consequences they get now. It would have been, we thought about it. We had a, we had a heart. Like, and to think now and to hear now that like that kid


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[Assistant] If there is a god and you believe in that god, that god does not forgive you, my friend. I can tell you that much. You just stuck a gun to some man's head. Because his wife that you are fucking told you to. That's not a real friend if he's gonna forgive you for that. I don't think that's something that just gets written off in the book. I don't know.


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[Assistant] That's what you just did. Like how dare you. Fuck you. How dare you.


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[Assistant] Like, I'm not religious, but how fucking dare you. No, me either. That's just like, disgusting.


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[Assistant] See, that's why it's important to know your neighbors, my friends. My neighbors never talk to me. My neighbors and I had a barbecue the other night, or no, last night, and it was


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[Assistant] What do you think that means? I don't know what that means that's weird. I'm offended.


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[Assistant] I just think I'm like, you know what, if you have a chance to have like a tight knit little neighborhood, if you happen to be in there, do it man.


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[Assistant] Yeah. Cause everybody's on that text chain and everybody's like, what the fuck was that car? Who say, who's, did you hear that noise? Like everyone's on it. I love it. There's like an app now too, that you can get it.


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[Assistant] Yeah, I think we just have a text chain and as soon as like, I think like,


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[Assistant] How, what a chokehold that show had on all of us though.


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[Assistant] Rescue 911, I don't think I ever watched that. No, I think it was before your time. It was Rescue 911 and Unsolved Mysteries were like back to back. Unsolved Mysteries. And Rescue 911 was intense. Really? Yea, it was very intense. They like reenacted 911 calls, but you heard the 911 call. Not for me. It was like our first, everyone's first venture into true crime, I believe. Yea.


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[Assistant] You look at it and say, okay, everyone grieves differently. But when compiled upon other evidence, you go, okay, that is a little strange. Right. Like you just hold it in the back of your head and just put it together with the other.


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[Assistant] Like wow, like these bullies who have never, who haven't handled a murder, yeaah, this week, this week, this month, this year, this month, this year, anywhere, anytime, like that never handle murders. Right. And like you know you did it and you're still being like it's their fault.


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[Assistant] Cause the reason, like this is all doubly, triply, quadruply fucked up cause you're like, you know that she did this. Yeah. Like she's causing all these problems and bitching and moaning when she


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[Assistant] Researching true crime and all that and learning about like Aftermath Inc and all that stuff and like 24, you know, whatever. That, like,


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[Assistant] Victims are left to call someone to hire a whole team to come and clean up after their loved ones. Like you have to pay for that. Like you have to pay for it. Like a lot of people don't know that. I never knew that until we started this podcast. And I'm sure a lot of people, when it happens to them, they don't know that. So they come back to the house and they're like, who the fuck is going to clean this? Like, I can't clean this.


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[Assistant] So if that was the case, it's like, yeah, ask, be like, I don't know what's happening here. But that's the thing. Knowing that she did it, it's like, you need to clean this up. You clean it up. Wench. Like, Jesus. Wench. Get to work.


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[Assistant] Like, cause my initial thought was that, my initial thought with that, and maybe I'm wrong, I don't know.


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[Assistant] Was that, that was a, an order from Pam as proof that they had done it. I could see that. Because they were supposed to bring that ring back. That's what I assumed.


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[Assistant] What a last humiliation for Greg. Right. To make him remove that ring and then to leave it. It's like, wow, so you just did that.


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[Assistant] Just to do that, like, that's even more fucked up.


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[Assistant] I'm still like reeling about him buying lunch with Greg's money. With Greg's money.


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[Assistant] Yeah, no, I'm like, no hate to like her parents for not even thinking about it. It's just wild. But when you think about it afterwards, you're like, oh god. Oh fuck.


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[Assistant] Like you can't even muster that up, like you did marry this man, you did like love him.


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[Assistant] Yeah, like that truly, like that's fucked up. It's like for him to say I didn't wanna do that, but I did it for her, and it's like,


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[Assistant] Ooh, like the amount of lives that she just straight up shattered in every way. She turned a kid into a killer that wasn't a killer.


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[Assistant] Yeaah. Go away. And you had a sexual relationship with a minor as an adult. Yeaah, you're a pedophile, so like shhhhhh. So you did some stuff. Yeaah.


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[Assistant] There's so many like times where either they should have just divorced and that should have been it or in that moment when all those kids realized that they didn't want to do this. I wish they had just


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[Assistant] Not done it. They just stood up for what they're, something inside of them was saying and just listened to it. Right, how to fucking.


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[Assistant] Specifically those green ghost bitches with the chain.


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[Assistant] Just like I'll never be a fan of house centipedes. Oh god. Yeah.


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[Assistant] Even though I, we got to see a lot of our network, um, babies this, the last week. Yeah, and I was talking to Sean, um, from Mostly Horror, go listen to it, it's great.


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[Assistant] Choose your fighter! Yes, that's basically the conversation we had and I can't choose. I don't want either. No, that's a Sophie's choice. I can't do it. I can't do it. No.


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[Assistant] I was getting, I was getting, it was Mother's Day, so I got my like allotted, you know, however much time just by myself to get ready. Like that was my like, I just want to take a shower.


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[Assistant] Alone, like without kids being like hello, like can I ask you questions while you're showering? And just like put makeup on, do my hair. You look super cute in your hair. Thank you. I was like damn girl. Appreciate it. That's what happens when I get uninterrupted time to do my hair.


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[Assistant] But I was doing that and I had picked up my towel to get something and my hair tie, a black hair tie fell out of it.


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[Assistant] For like a natural reaction. You just yelped. I YELPED. Straight up YELPED like my dogs.


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[Assistant] It was like a, I can't even recreate it, cause it was just a real...


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[Assistant] Like organic nervous system response that happens. Can't find a place you don't even know of. But when it settled on the floor and I said, oh, that's a hair elastic, I was very embarrassed all by myself.


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[Assistant] That's funny though. It was funny, but it was very embarrassing. No one was there to witness it, but it was embarrassing. Did you lol at yourself?


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[Assistant] Dogs now who will eat everything that runs across the floor. Ew, I don't want them to eat a house centipede though. Yea, they're fine, they're good. Alright, how do we change the subject? They're also gonna be fucking huge, these dogs guys. What do you mean gonna be? They already are massive. They're getting huge and they're just gloops and I love them. They're like 35 pounds now. Yea, they're like huge. Thickums McGee's.


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[Assistant] Badassery. Oh yeaah. They are, they're literally gonna be a hundred pounds each, I think. Like give or take. We're basically, they're gonna, and they are already like ready to protect my kids, uhm, with their lives. Oh hell yeaah.


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[Assistant] I'm just gonna train him to like eat people alive. I'm totally kidding, so don't call like an animal shelter or something, I don't know.


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[Assistant] Five years of morbid, holy shit, let's do big cases. Alina did five parts of the HH Home series, which if you haven't listened to that, yeet yourself back there. And now I'm doing a really big story also.


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[Assistant] We're gonna be talking about Pamela Smart today. Ah, I know that name. You know that name. I do. I feel like a lot of people, like at least here in New England, are familiar with that name. Yeah. But if it's a name you've never heard of or it doesn't ring a bell quite yet.


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[Assistant] We're gonna stat at the beginning. Here it is. Here it is, honey. So, one of the key people at the center of this story, obviously, is Pamela Pammy.


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[Assistant] I believe her maiden name is Wojas or Vojas. Okay. I tried to look it up and it like, nope, nowhere. They were like, no. You type in W-O-J-A-S pronunciation and it gives you many, many pronunciations.


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[Assistant] For every other word. I love that. Yea, so I tried. You gave it a shot. I watched her do it. She did. It was live. Yea. So anyways, Pam Pammy was born on August 16th, 1967 in Miami, Florida.


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[Assistant] She was the second of three children born to John and Linda, wuhus wuhus.


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[Assistant] To make ends meet. But both of them worked super, super hard. John worked at a printing company, and Linda was a stenographer.


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[Assistant] Whoa. I know. We got stenographers again. Stenographers in the house. Wow. But, so they both worked like super super hard.


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[Assistant] And eventually that hard work paid off and they were both able to kinda climb that corporate ladder a bit.


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[Assistant] So now they were more like upper middle class and they had money to spend on their kids that their parents never really had to spend on them.


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[Assistant] But at the same time, they were living in late 60s, early 70s Miami.


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[Assistant] And while their neighborhood was a safe place to live, the rest of Miami was not exactly the safest at this point in time.


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[Assistant] Violent crime was on the rise, social tensions were flaring.


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[Assistant] So John and Linda were going back and forth throughout the years deciding on whether they should stay.


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[Assistant] Or if they should move back to Mass, where they had both grown up. Mass being Massachusetts. Massachusetts. Massachusetts. I know that place.


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[Assistant] But the decision kind of made itself for them when the riots in Miami started. Now, if you're not familiar with the Miami riots, they did take place in 1980 after an all-white jury acquitted four policemen who had beaten a black man, Arthur McDuffie, to death. Which, like, really scary how history repeats itself.


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[Assistant] Yeah. So they had both grown up actually in Lowell, Massachusetts. This is so weird to hear, like.


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[Assistant] I know. You know, not a lot of like, our stories are this close to. No, and this one's, like I was in New Hampshire this past weekend, like I was like in this area.


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[Assistant] So they had both grown up in Lowell and they would always take their kids to New Hampshire during summer vacation.


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[Assistant] Why don't we move to Wyndham, New Hampshire? And it was in 1980 that they decided to do that. Now Wyndham was a safe, quiet town.


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[Assistant] But, because his job was as a pilot and he worked for a commercial airline,


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[Assistant] A hundred and eighty people onto this plane and then I fly them across the country. And then I have to land it safely and do it all again like an hour later. Like if you're a pilot listening. Pour one out for pilots.


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[Assistant] And also, pilots always make me feel better. Whenever I talk to a pilot, they're always very, like, good at making you understand how safe flying is. I'm always like, I trust you. Yeah. I trust you with my life, literally. Cause you would've trusted John. I would've. Another good John. He did love, uh, yeah, I'm pretty sure. Okay, cool.


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[Assistant] But the thing was, he was struggling with his family, especially like his wife and his kids, because, that's what your family is, but because he had to be away for so long.


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[Assistant] Didn't really have a close relationship with her dad, but then again he really wasn't home much. I think she thought he was kind of cheap.


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[Assistant] Which is like, damn. I think he's just working. He's trying. And the thing is, from what I read at least, again I did not grow up in this house, I don't think he seemed very cheap. I think it was more that he wanted his kids to know how it took hard work to make money. Well, they had lived through


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Living paycheck to paycheck and dime to dime, they know what it's like to have to stretch that dollar as far as you can. So getting money after that, I think it's like you are automatically still in that mindset of like


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Make it last. And they're teaching their kids that like, for instance, Pam was to get a job when she was 13, and I think that was probably the age back then. I'm sure. So I think she was like, why do I have to work so hard? Yeah, like you have money, why am I not doing this? Yeah, it's like typical kid shit. Exactly. But I also can't imagine like,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] One of my kids describing our relationship is like, I wasn't really close to her. Like, she was kind of cheap. Like, that would be like, oof.


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[Assistant] I would think so. You know, like that's a eek. Yea, that's a knife to the heart. I feel bad. Right there. Yea. And also it's like, it's not like he was off on the weekends like gambling and like picking up girls. Yea, he was working. He was just being a pilot.


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[Assistant] But like I said, Pam got a job when she was 13. It doesn't sound like she was that happy about it. But it was right when they moved to New Hampshire. She worked part-time at a bakery and also a dairy queen, which like makes me want one of those chocolate dipped coals. So fucking good. The swirl.


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[Assistant] Now later, people seemed to think that Pam had it a little hard at home, and they felt like she grew up too fast, but these were like her friends talking. Okay. Those friends would point to little things, like the fact that her room was very tidy, spick and span at all times, and she didn't have posters hanging up from magazines or anything like that, like you would expect, but it's like, if that's how hard it was, like,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Always back to TikTok. Always. But either way, even though Pam had been uprooted and moved halfway across the country at a pretty shitty time in her life, and her home life was like, maybe a little rigid, she still maintained her personality.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] She was known at school and in public as somebody who was assertive, outspoken, and had a great sense of humor.


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[Assistant] She really had an easy time making friends, especially because she moved when she did, like, some people might struggle with that, but she did not.


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[Assistant] And in high school, er, she went to a high school with over 2,000 students because the high school that she went to, uhm,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But we have one in Massachusetts that I used to hate playing in softball because it was just like, they, they caught more pickings. Yea, way more pickings and they always fucking creamed us in softball. Yea they did. It was so embarrassing.


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[Assistant] Enough reminiscing about softball. Pam went to a high school like that. But she was among one of the most popular students, which is really saying something I guess with all those students. Yea, with all those students, you know? Her sophomore year she became the class president and she also earned a spot on the cheer team.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But at the same time, she still had what people would call her dark side.


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[Assistant] Now Pam always wanted to be the center of attention, especially if that attention was coming from guys. And she was known to be super aggressive if she thought somebody was stepping on her toes.


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[Assistant] You can argue that maybe her possessiveness came from a place of knowing that she worked hard for something.


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[Assistant] And she wanted to guard that thing that she had worked so hard to achieve.


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[Assistant] Steven Sawicki, I believe is how you say it, he wrote Teach Me to Kill, which is a great reference on this case. I would definitely read it.


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[Assistant] He also wrote that as her high school career went on, school officials were catching on to Pam's ways. She was suspected to have rigged the election that won her class president sophomore year. She rigged an election? Allegedly. Allegedly. She did not run again her junior year, but she did rig the election. Allegedly. Allegedly. Sophomore year.


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[Assistant] They also thought that Pam may have stolen money from the class funds. Like she was skimming off the top while she was president. She was a straight up politician.


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[Assistant] Her friends were starting to idolize her. She was a bad bitch in their eyes. Oh yea, bad bitch alert.


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[Assistant] And prioritized always having a good time over everything else.


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[Assistant] Then singer of Van Halen for those that don't know. Wow. Yeah. What a pursuit. Yeah. An old friend Laura talked to reporters about Pam in 1991 and she told them that Pam was quote, extremely energetic, very involved and always smiling. Everyone wanted to be close to her. I guess they felt that some of her power would rub off on them. Hmm.


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[Assistant] So, just like- It was a power thing. Very varying degrees of people's opinions on Pam.


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[Assistant] But those not infatuated with her started hearing rumors about her being a little promiscuous. Cue up Nellie's promiscuous. Nellie Furtado, right?


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[Assistant] Remusculus? Yeaah. Yeaah. Yeaah, you're right. Yeaah. Right? It's Nelly Furtado and the guy.


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[Assistant] Am I throwing you off? Didn't think so. Nope. Yeah, well, oh my god.


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[Assistant] Look it up. Oh, I was going to say because everyone's screaming right now and I feel so bad. Everybody might be screaming in a second too because I also didn't look up this pronunciation by accident. But some classmates called her seca or sika.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, it was a reference to an adult film actress, Sekka, known as the Platinum Princess of Porn.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, but yea, I don't know who Sika or Sekka is. Well, she's the platinum princess of porn, or she was back then. Cool. So they called her that because she was a little promiscuous girl. Damn. Um, but outwardly she actually seemed to embrace the nickname. Other students, they skipped the references and they simply referred to her as Wham Bam Thank You Pam.


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[Assistant] I'm not, I'm not joking. I'm not joking. They called her Wham Bam. Thank you, Pam.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Okay. Which just reminds me of Kesha. It just reminds me of, uh, The Office. With Pam Beasley. There you go.


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[Assistant] Now, Pam's high school boyfriend, who in my opinion sounds like a grade A douchebag, he would later tell the Boston Globe Wild about Pam saying, uh, he would tell her, he would talk to them about her, and he would say, she was a wild, wild girl. We were doing everything your parents tell you not to do.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And he was apparently the one to break things off, uh, one day in the school parking lot and literally told the Boston Globe,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I just got sick of her. That's terrible. That's how I was in high school. Oh man, everybody.


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[Assistant] She always missed Florida because remember she's a Miami girl. She lived there until she was like 13.


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[Assistant] And she decided after graduating from Pinkerton High School,


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[Assistant] That she wanted to head to Florida State University in Gainesville. Okay.


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[Assistant] Now she enrolled there in 1985 and then she would start there but then later she transferred to the Tallahassee campus. Okay. And she was studying media performance.


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[Assistant] So as those friendships drifted, she actually had no problem making new friends in Florida.


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[Assistant] And actually even back in New Hampshire when she would come back for breaks. Oh wow, look at her. She made new friends over her first break from school. Damn. And it was through one of her New Hampshire friends, Terry Schnell, that Pam would meet Greg Smart.


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[Assistant] He was born September 4th, 1965 in Londonbury, New Hampshire.


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[Assistant] I don't know why I said it like that, I just wanted to. Like, not actually London, but, knew him, sure. Oh, and I said Londonberry, it's Londonderry. You know. You know. We're all here. We're all here.


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[Assistant] His parents were Bill and Judy Smart. Now Greg was like a super active kid from a really early age. He had two brothers, Dean and Rick.


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[Assistant] And the Smart family loved to take vacations together. They were always in attendance at each boys little league games. And they were genuinely just a very close family unit. Adorable family. Yea, they really were. If you see pictures of all of them, I'm like, oh my god, I love you guys. I love you guys. Love you guys.


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[Assistant] Now Judy Smart described her son as a late bloomer, and she said while other kids around him competed for spots on teams and clubs, Greg was pretty shy and seemed happy just blending into a crowd. Aww.


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[Assistant] He was somewhat reclusive, too, and even into his high school years, just kinda...


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[Assistant] Blending into the crowd was his thing. Yeah, I just want to be there. Yeah, and he did just well enough in school to get by.


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[Assistant] But after high school, he decided to skip college and go right to work, and he started working for a company called Consolidated Utility Equipment Services. That sounds awesome. He assembled the heavy equipment truck booms. Damn. Which reminded me of your youngest, cause they love truck booms. I sure do. And construction equipment.


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[Assistant] But around that time he met Terry Schnell, who would later introduce him to Pam. They actually got to be like super duper close friends and people were speculating a ton at that point.


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[Assistant] And like Pam, Greg was a big fan of heavy metal, which...


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[Assistant] I'm actually glad you interrupted to talk about hair. I'm glad. Because as far as Pam was concerned, Greg fit the image she had in her head of the perfect guy.


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[Assistant] He loved to party. He didn't seem all too concerned with building a respectable career.


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[Assistant] Now, even though Greg was completely uninterested in monogamy at first, he and Pam did hit it off, and they ended up going out with each other a few times over Pam's winter break that year.


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[Assistant] Now, Greg enjoyed Pam's company, and the fact that she was always down to party.


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[Assistant] So because of that, he was pretty relieved when Pam went back to school after break. But Pam on the other hand, returned to school.


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[Assistant] There are issues in their relationship that stem from both sides. Okay, that's good to know.


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[Assistant] So don't like root. I just get, I'm not gonna root for anybody here, cause like I know it's all bad, but like I get why they were both like into each other. Totally. In the beginning. Like totally get that. Totally agree. Yeah. Hair.


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[Assistant] So their relationship actually started slowly, like we know, and somewhat uncomplicated. They would talk on the phone after Pam went back to school and they'd write letters to each other.


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[Assistant] And by Valentine's Day, Pam upped the ante by using her cheap father's connections. I'm like, you're gonna call him cheap and then you're gonna use his connections? She used his connections at Delta to travel to New Hampshire at no cost.


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[Assistant] Oh, he's so cheap. I'm like, it kind of sounds like you're a little cheap, Pam. Yeah, seriously. Now, she would do that plenty more times through the long distance phase. And by spring break of 1986, though,


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[Assistant] Greg still wasn't ready to commit to Pam quite yet. Damn. Actually he was still going on dates with another girl.


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[Assistant] Wow, damn. Pam was pissed because she went into this situation fully thinking like, oh, I always get what I want. So this ultimatum, he's gonna be like, oh my gosh, how could I lose Pam? But he was like, okay, you're not gonna ultimatum me. He was like, okay, bye.


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[Assistant] And she was not expecting Greg to give up so easily. So she caved as soon as he rejected her ultimatum and they kept on dating while he was dating this other girl.


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[Assistant] So over time though, Greg did decide that he wanted to be with Pam and Pam only. He was ready for monogamy at some point. And in the fall of 1986, they had become completely exclusive. Love it.


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[Assistant] They were still doing long distance, but Pam was able to pull her Delta Airlines strings when she needed to, and Greg would make the trips when he had the money and could get time off from work. Okay.


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[Assistant] By 1987 though, it was getting harder and harder to maintain the distance. So Greg decided he was going to move out to Tallahassee and be with Pam. Damn. Crazy. Pam was able to be her complete self in Tallahassee since she wasn't living under her parents' roof anymore.


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[Assistant] She could love her metal as much as she wanted to, and this is where I said, or hairbands if we're being honest. We are being honest. And she could also pursue the career that she wanted to in the entertainment industry.


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[Assistant] She landed a position through her program at school to be a news intern for WCTV, which at the time, and possibly now, is an affiliate of CBS. And possibly now. I'm like, I don't really know. Who's to say? Who's to say? Not me. Whoa, I just dropped pens. I'm sorry, everybody.


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[Assistant] That's fine, I'll make one. Yeah, I mean, if you want it, you might as well make up a position that fits. I kinda love that. I will say, I do love that.


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[Assistant] Metal Madness! This is really 80s, I love it. Oh, it's so much more 80s because Pam referred to herself as she was DJing as the Maiden of Metal. Oh, hell yea. And she spent one night a week playing all her favorite records from bands like Van Halen,


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[Assistant] I don't know, it's a spirit, cause I know that, I know how to say it, I think it's just a weird accent that I have.


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[Assistant] Raik, I think it is? Queen's Raik. She liked that Queen band, but not Queen. I think it's Raik. Queen's Raik. Queen's Raik. Somebody will tell us.


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[Assistant] It was great moving to Florida. It seemed like Pam's life and the vision she'd crafted for her future were finally coming into focus.


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[Assistant] Once he arrived in Florida, Greg moved into his own apartment. Er, yeaah.


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[Assistant] According to his mother Judy, Greg never really liked Florida, though. He just stayed because of Pam. Wow. Which is really sweet. Lerv.


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[Assistant] But he missed New England a lot, and he was just trying to get acclimated by going out with Pam and her friends, and eventually he made his own friends.


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[Assistant] Now his family back home was absolutely shocked that he had made a move to Florida because they knew him mostly as this like non-monogamous recluse back in New Hampshire. I love it. We were like, wait.


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[Assistant] What? What's happening right now? Excuse me? You moved to Florida to be in a monogamous relationship? That's crazy. And they were even more shocked when he and Pam ended up getting an apartment together just after a few months of him being there. Shacken up. Shacken up. Not completely by themselves because they lived with one of Pam's coworkers.


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[Assistant] The situation was ideal for Pam, but she couldn't tell her parents about Greg living with her.


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[Assistant] Work hard and get a good job. Not be distracted by a boy.


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[Assistant] And they liked Greg, but they definitely wouldn't approve of Pam living with him. Okay.


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[Assistant] Four minutes. Now in January of 1988, Pam got home from work one day in a super shitty mood. She had just had a shit day.


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[Assistant] So Greg was consoling her, and he was like, you know what? Like, I think you should take a shower. That always makes you feel better. I agree. If you're pissed off, go take a shower.


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[Assistant] And at first she didn't want to, but he was like, just take a fucking shower pan, like you'll feel better. And she was like, okay, fine. And when she got out, she reached for her powder puff.


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[Assistant] And when she lifted it, she saw that Greg had left her a diamond ring.


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[Assistant] That she had told him she liked while they had gone ring shopping just casually.


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[Assistant] And since he'd gotten to Florida, Greg was having a hard time finding work and he was getting by landscaping and taking on other small jobs here and there.


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[Assistant] But the engagement really started to seem to get him thinking more seriously about the future. Yea. And according to my guy Steven Sawicki. My guy.


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[Assistant] Greg started to understand that the nice home and boat and other possessions his parents had acquired would not come easily at $3.35 an hour. So he started thinking realistically about joining his dad and his dad worked in the insurance business.


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[Assistant] So while Pam worked hard to finish out her last year at Florida State, Greg started studying for and actually eventually passed the exam to sell insurance in Florida.


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[Assistant] Now, the insurance industry was definitely not what Greg had envisioned for himself.


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[Assistant] But he had seen his dad make a comfortable and stable life for his family, and he wanted the same opportunity.


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[Assistant] Now Pam knew that the changes that Greg was making were for a better future for the two of them.


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[Assistant] But there were some changes that came as a total surprise to her and that maybe she wasn't super happy about.


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[Assistant] One day, for instance, after Greg passed the real estate exam and he got an interview with MetLife, which is actually the company that his dad worked for.


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[Assistant] He surprised Pam while she was out for coffee with her friends.


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[Assistant] He had gotten a haircut to look more professional. Cause like he couldn't be selling real estate or he couldn't be selling insurance with like crazy hair. Like a metalhead. Right.


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[Assistant] So, he showed up and sat down next to her, and she didn't even know it was him at first.


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[Assistant] Uh, but it didn't really seem like this change was welcome, uh, for hair loving Pam. Yeah.


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[Assistant] Now bigger changes came a few months later when he surprised Pam again. But I think this is a good surprise because he surprised her with a Shih Tzu puppy. Aww. As a graduation present. I love that. They'd been going back and forth deciding on whether or not to get a dog over the last couple of months, but they ultimately decided against it because they thought it would take a strain on their budget.


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[Assistant] But Greg saved up the money from his landscaping job so that he could buy the dog. And he figured that his new job at MetLife...


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[Assistant] And whatever work Pam was gonna be able to find, now that she had graduated, they would be able to afford the dog, and she'd be happy about it. That's so sweet.


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[Assistant] Now, she actually wanted a Yorkshire Terrier at first, like that's what she really wanted, so I think maybe she made that comment. So she wasn't super excited about the idea of a Shih Tzu.


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[Assistant] So they named the dog Halen? Yea. Okay. He was named after their favorite band. Cute.


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[Assistant] And after high school, though, he developed a strong personality, and now, just like Pam, he liked to be the one in control of things. But so did Pam. Uh oh. So two strong personalities in the house was starting to lead to more arguments. I wonder what their signs are.


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[Assistant] Do you know, does that, does that check? Like those feel like two strong personalities, right? I know Virgos are, I live with one.


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[Assistant] Uh, yeaah. I created one, actually. Those are two very strong personalities and people that want to be in control of things, I would think. Okay.


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[Assistant] That makes sense. You know what I'm saying? Hold on, now I gotta find my place. I had to bring it back to your, uh, to your area of expertise. I'm happy you did, although I guess it's not my...


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[Assistant] Expertise area anymore. No, you got it. I got it. You got it. I got it. I believed in you and you got it. Oh my goodness. Thank you so much. So yeah, Avery, you can pick it up right here. Yeah.


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[Assistant] So, yes, two strong personalities, a Virgo and a Leo.


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[Assistant] One night while they were still in Florida, Greg and Pam decided to go out to a bar with some friends.


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[Assistant] Now, Greg and his friends sounded like they were being a couple of jerks. Fun. They were making gross comments about the waitress. Eww. Right in front of Pam. Oh, fuck em up. Yeah, fuck em up, fuck em up. So eventually, Pam had had enough of the stream of inappropriate comments and she started arguing with Greg about it. She's like, what the fuck is your problem? Yeah.


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[Assistant] Now, the argument escalated to the point where Greg spit a mouthful of beer on Pam. Oh, that's not okay. And he had to be forcibly removed from the bar. Ooh, that would be the end for me. It would also be the end for me.


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[Assistant] Throughout all that, throughout that fight and all the ones to follow, Pam and Greg for some reason or another, stayed committed to each other. Okay. Like they said, this is what we want. You do you. Now, and since Pam had graduated at this point, there wasn't any reason to stay in Florida anymore. So they decided that they were gonna move back to New Hampshire.


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[Assistant] Greg figured he could work with his well respected and well connected dad.


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[Assistant] Pam definitely wasn't against moving back home to New Hampshire after graduation because the cost of living was cheaper and the rural nature of the state made it very safe, I would say, especially in comparison to Florida.


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[Assistant] But at the same time, she also always kind of considered herself a Florida girl. She liked the warmer climate, she liked the things you can do out there.


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[Assistant] And she liked New Hampshire, but she struggled with the harsh New England winter. That wasn't for her.


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[Assistant] Greg on the other hand, he had struggled like I was saying from the moment he arrived in Florida, so he was super happy to be back in New England. He loved the colder climate, he loved doing winter sports,


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[Assistant] And he was happy to be back with his family, because like I said, they were a super close family.


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[Assistant] It was hard to stay super connected to them while living so far away, and he was happy to be back.


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[Assistant] He was feeling like himself again, he was settling into a new routine. It was great.


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[Assistant] He actually got back to New Hampshire a few weeks before Pam did. She stayed back in Florida to finish the last of her responsibilities at school. But when she did make her way back to New Hampshire


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[Assistant] Like I was saying, the decision was not an easy one to make.


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[Assistant] She'd spent four years trying to find career options out in Florida and trying out different roles in the entertainment industry.


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[Assistant] But at the same time, she knew very well that the actual paying jobs in the industry


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[Assistant] Now there was one place she could apply to help advance her career in professional journalism over in New Hampshire. It was the Manchester ABC affiliate WMUR. She applied and they rejected her. So that was kind of that. So since there weren't a lot of other options,


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[Assistant] She went to work at a temp agency, and then she landed a job as the new media center director with the school administrative unit 21.


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[Assistant] She'd have to maintain and distribute the audio and video equipment to the six schools within her district.


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[Assistant] But there was also the potential to move up the ladder and become more involved.


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[Assistant] And also video production was still new and exciting at this point.


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[Assistant] And so the school board really hoped that the new media center would engage parents and students and lead to some positive press for the district.


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[Assistant] Now the salary and benefits were great for somebody just out of college and the work made it so that she was still connected to media. So she was still doing what she liked to do. And she also got her own office in the basement of Winniconet


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[Assistant] Now, like I was saying earlier, when they moved back for the summer and fall of 88


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[Assistant] Greg and Pam were living separately with their parents until they could find a place of their own.


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[Assistant] Uhm, but they both had really good jobs, so it didn't take long for them to find a place to move into.


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[Assistant] In January of 89, they moved into a condo together on Misty Morning Drive.


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[Assistant] Ooh. Misty morning drive. Isn't that just pretty? I love that. Misty morning drive. Imagine just waking up in your house on misty morning drive. Oh, I love a misty morning. Doesn't misty morning drive sound like a soap opera?


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[Assistant] Now that we're saying it. It does. It definitely does. I like it.


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[Assistant] Pam actually got a call from somebody at WCTV which was the Tallahassee affiliate where she interned. Okay. And they wanted to know.


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[Assistant] Are you interested in an on-air position with our station? Whoa. Like everything she had ever wanted. Damn. It was the call that the old Pam was waiting for.


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[Assistant] But this Pam was determined to commit to her married life.


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[Assistant] So she declined. Wow. That's shocking. I know.


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[Assistant] Deborah Keeney, who had been Pam and Greg's roommate back in Florida, said of this time, she always wanted to be a broadcaster and she loved the spotlight, but she turned it down in order to stay with Greg. It was because she loved Greg so much and that was the truth. Damn.


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[Assistant] It's wild to think that had she accepted that job.


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[Assistant] The world would be a different place. It would. Technically.


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[Assistant] They had more than 250 guests, which stresses me the fuck out.


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[Assistant] Cool with me. Yeah, cool with me. Uhm, and their wedding song was, honestly, by the Christian Heavy Metal band. It's either Striper, uhm, it's probably Striper, cause it's definitely not Striper.


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[Assistant] Judy Smart, remember that's Greg's mother, recalled one afternoon this was gonna piss you off, cause like I said, they both have faults.


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[Assistant] Judy was just like, sitting at Pam and Greg's place one day after the...


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[Assistant] But it wasn't actually really the first time that Judy had seen Pam act this entitled. Apparently right before their wedding, Pam's parents called Greg's parents and said that they were concerned that Greg wouldn't be able to quote, give their daughter the things in life that she deserved.


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[Assistant] Wow. Basically they were like, he didn't go to college, he likes to party, and he only just got a good job, so like, what do you think about this? Like, is he good enough for our kid? Wow.


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[Assistant] And Judy said of the whole thing, we had to sell Greg to the well houses, like he was a piece of merchandise. I'd be pissed. What is happening? Like, I don't think you guys were meant to get married. I was just gonna say, this is a very strange way to begin your lives together. I can't imagine Ma and Papa calling Drew's parents and being like,


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[Assistant] To a lot of their friends, Pam and Greg did not seem like they fit together anymore. No. No. They were fighting constantly, and it was starting to seem to everyone else like they enjoyed pushing each other's buttons.


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[Assistant] They also both really seemed to like to get attention from other men and women.


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[Assistant] Which uhm, didn't go too well when it came to Pam's jealous nature.


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[Assistant] Especially when it came to things that she considered hers and only hers. And finally, their goals and ambitions weren't the same.


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[Assistant] Greg, since he had cut his hair, he'd started on a more narrow path in the industry, and he seemed at this point to be embracing kinda like a simple, easygoing lifestyle.


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[Assistant] He was happy to stay in the town that he grew up in. He'd go to a party or two.


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[Assistant] He was just living. Yea. Like a very normal chill lifestyle. Just living. But Pam wanted more. She wanted that big career. She wanted to...


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[Assistant] While it had its rough points, their marriage wasn't quite as strained as you might think looking from the outside. Mmhm. Greg and Pam, they still enjoyed spending time together, I guess. Uhm, they were at the very least a good example of opposites attract, some people said. Okay.


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[Assistant] It seems like that, some people just like that. Like they like being in the middle.


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[Assistant] They said Pam was the one who tended to dominate and control, and Greg took what his friends considered a, let's go, no problem, whatever approach to life.


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[Assistant] If Greg wasn't irritated with Pam all the time though, his friends and family absolutely were.


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[Assistant] They seem to find Pam overbearing, controlling.


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[Assistant] And they could tell that she felt threatened by Greg's close relationships.


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[Assistant] Which, that's not good. Yeah, that's always a red flag. Greg had a lot of close friends and making friends was easy for him.


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[Assistant] But now, in this part of her life, Pam was struggling.


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[Assistant] I feel like a lot of people know somebody like this.


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[Assistant] You're not being rational, you're not being like an actual adult about anything, but


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[Assistant] People younger than them are like, wow, you're so cool and carefree and you've got like, you know.


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[Assistant] Exactly. Exactly. Now, so depending on who you ask, Craig and Pam's marriage might have seemed like somewhat stable in the first few months that they were married.


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[Assistant] But that's also most likely because they hadn't gone through that much as a couple yet. Yeah, I mean they just got married. They weren't struggling with money. They still had that excitement of being newlyweds.


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[Assistant] But, because of the rough points that I've already told you about,


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[Assistant] He would spit beer in her face and send her out of the room pissed off. It was like a vicious cycle. Yeah. And one night things got even worse. It was about seven months after the wedding and Greg went out to Boston for a night with his friends. Oh damn. He wasn't supposed to be gone super late. It was just supposed to be like a night hanging out with your friends.


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[Assistant] Uh, but he didn't come home until the next morning. Uh oh. He and Pam obviously got into a huge fight when he finally did get home.


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[Assistant] On the weekends he'd go out with his friends and if he wasn't with his friends he'd just go for drives around town in his truck.


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[Assistant] That's a conversation you have to have before getting married. Like, you can't wait until later and be like, oh wait, you don't want kids? Like, that sucks. If you want kids, you need to be with somebody that wants kids. If you're planning to lock yourself to someone for life,


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[Assistant] Greg also wanted to put a down payment on a house. Pam didn't wanna move.


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[Assistant] While Pam's personal life was taking hit after hit after hit after hit, her professional life was actually going really well.


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[Assistant] She was doing great at work and she decided in the fall of 1989 that she wanted to get more involved with something called Project Self Esteem.


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[Assistant] It was the high school's drug and alcohol awareness program, like essentially D.A.R.E., which we have over here.


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[Assistant] Uhm, and it was gonna be mandatory for all incoming freshmen. It was mostly run by students, but it needed to be overseen by an adult staff member.


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[Assistant] She worked at the school as an administrator. Cause she is always, it's always the teacher. Everybody always says she's a teacher. She wasn't. It doesn't.


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[Assistant] Billy Flynn's family had moved to Seabrook, New Hampshire from California. California! California man. And they moved in 1987 when Billy was 12 years old. So interestingly enough, uh, he and Pam's story kinda starts the same. Ah, okay. Which is weird when you think about it.


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[Assistant] Now the move was tough for Billy because it was a huge culture shock. Seabrook wasn't necessarily the nicest area at the time. When Pam started her job actually,


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[Assistant] Seabrook had the highest unemployment rate in the state of New Hampshire.


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[Assistant] And it was mostly filled with like, just shops, like tattoo shops, firework stores, there was a lot of porn stores, I guess, along route one.


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[Assistant] And the surrounding towns were filled with people from mass and beyond mass, and those towns had kind of been transformed throughout the years, while Seabrook was sort of just frozen in time. Yeah.


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[Assistant] Now, usually the people living there had strong, a strong New Hampshire accent, which I don't know what a New Hampshire accent is.


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[Assistant] I would, I know it when I hear it. But you couldn't do it? But I don't think I could recreate it. I don't know if I know it, to be honest with you. It's life.


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[Assistant] It's slight, but you, like, you don't know the characteristics at all. No, like, I would, I was gonna say I could try to look up, like, uh, uhm,


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[Assistant] You know, I probably have a New Hampshire soul that's like, that's not an accent, it's my voice. That's just me. It's just who I am. Yeaah. But apparently the people living in Seabrook, to other people, seem to have a strong New Hampshire accent, and they also use specific slang words that other people weren't using.


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[Assistant] Ikebub means alright or yes. Ikebub? Ikebub, but according to Dave it's more of an exclamation.


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[Assistant] Uhm, and then there's what Dave calls the classic, uh, yeaah.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] We're the butt of a lot of jokes, which makes me sad because I also came from a town that was the butt of a lot of jokes. Yeah. You know, that's true. The jokes were especially abundant in high school and the Seabrook kids were usually called brookers. Brookers. Brookers. Now Billy Flynn was known at the time as a quintessential brooker. He loved.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Heavy Metal! I liked that. And he fell in with a crowd from Seabrook that didn't really do much else but listen to Heavy Metal and Vibe. That was their shit. That's what they did. Rock on!


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, just one year after moving to New Hampshire from California, this is fucking terrible and tragic. Oh. His father was killed in a car accident. Oh. So he was 13 years old. Oh jeez.


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[Assistant] So Billy could usually be found most afternoons just killing time with his friends, Pete Randall and Vance, uh, JR Lattime, I believe is how you say it. They would work on junk cars in JR's front yard. Okay. Now JR's house was kind of a home base for Billy and his friends. It was overcrowded, especially when another friend


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So it was overcrowded for them, but it was also like home. I was gonna say, yea, it's like a cozy overcrowd. Exactly. Now outside of the house, that group of teens didn't really have the best reputation in town.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] They were known to shoplift. They were known to break into cars and steal things. Sticky fingers. Sticky fingers McGee's. They would steal like small shit around the car. Or they would steal radios, which is a dick move. Yea, that is a dick move, let me tell ya.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeaah, didn't your radio get stolen? Yeaah, it did. Yeaah, and Toby the Probie? Yeaah, and Debbie's radio, I don't know if her radio got stolen, but I know her entire book of CDs got stolen.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And there was a lot of like, burned CDs, like mixed CDs. To this day we are sad about it. If you're listening and you did that, go fuck yourself. Fuck you and I hope LimeWire gave your computer a virus. I hope you got a virus. I hope the feds came to your house because of LimeWire. We were so mad. Like how dare you. Yea, that's fucked up.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Who steals a book of CDs? Dicks. Like you didn't even make that. No.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But yea, they like to do that. They like to steal things from the car like CD books and radios. And sometimes, if they were lucky enough to find a car that still had the keys in it.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] They would take that car for a joyride and then dump it across town from where they found it. So you would wake up in the morning and you would say, holy shit, my car is gone. But at school, they were a little more well behaved and their grades were like, alright.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Probably. Uh, one day that- What'd you say? They were probably threatened. Absolutely.


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[Assistant] Now, one day that fall they all got together for their first meeting.


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[Assistant] She never made them feel like a waste of time like some of the other adults in their life did. But Billy. Billy liked her for a totally different reason. He thought she was smokin' hot.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He was immediately feeling the, the, the ba-dum-ba-dum-ba-dum for her, and he turned to his friend JR and whispered,


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[Assistant] So Pam, even though she was an adult and obviously, uh, in a position of power and authority,


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[Assistant] She was 22 years old. She was a lot closer in age to the students than pretty much any other staff at the school. And she also wasn't one of their teachers.


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[Assistant] Like you usually hear she was. She was an administrator for the school district, so to them,


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[Assistant] She felt more like a cool older friend versus what she really was, an authority figure.


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[Assistant] But Billy, right away, did whatever he could do to be in Pam's company.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] To him, her love of heavy metal and her experience as a college radio DJ made her even cooler and less like any adult he knew.