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[Assistant] So after discussing it with the family, the men decided that the best course of action would be to report to the news service that with help from her doctors and the reverend, the problem had been solved. They were like, we just need them to believe that this is over. And we can do this privately. They're gonna be like a dog with a bone. Yeah.


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[Assistant] Now in their joint statement, the three men, which is, uh, the doctors and the reverend, they provided some small details about the activity, saying,


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[Assistant] We realized the need not only for medical care for the child, but also spiritual help for the whole family and we consulted certain ministers who have had the experience of abnormal phenomena of a similar nature.


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[Assistant] All along we have recognized the possible importance of restoring the child to her previous environment in Ireland.


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[Assistant] In our opinion, the phenomena are rapidly diminishing and it is, it is our belief that they may soon disappear altogether.


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[Assistant] So they were like, things are really chilling out over here, nothing to see. Yeah, don't worry about it, we fixed it.


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[Assistant] Now the statement, good, good, good, cool, cool, cool. Awesome. So the statement actually seemed to satisfy a lot of inquiring minds about town, but some local news outlets still wanted more information. Of course. And when none of the three men would provide any additional details, they looked elsewhere.


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[Assistant] I believe that a responsible medium should be taken to see the little girl, for such a person could certainly help her.


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[Assistant] Children are much more alive physically than adults are, and often, although unconscious, real mediums.


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[Assistant] If much of what is called their blethers was seriously examined, they would be discovered to contain communication from people who have passed on.


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[Assistant] So basically he's saying what I think a lot of people believe is that kids are more susceptible to like...


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[Assistant] Seeing spirits, making friends with spirits, being visited by spirits. Being open to spirits. Being open to it because they...


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[Assistant] Yeah. So despite that statement though, or the statement that Lunn, Nesbitt, and Logan had made, the press, like I said, maintained an interest in Virginia's story that went on for weeks, capitalizing on quotes from teachers, classmates, and then finally it did die out a few weeks later. Yeah.


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[Assistant] The fact was actually following the intercession service performed on the evening of December 1st, the activity had seemed to come to an end. Ah. So they were like manifesting kings and queens. So I was going to say, there you go. Now aside from one more incident at school in late January where a bowl of bulbs moved across Ms. Stewart's desk,


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[Assistant] They were worried about the press continuing to bother them or if genuinely the shit just stopped.


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[Assistant] Now, the story did end up getting new life in the summer of 1965 when George Owen released his book, Can We Explain the Poltergeist? Can we?


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[Assistant] Can we? I like that title. I always love when a book title is a question. I do too. It's fun. Can we? Can we? Let's find out. Read this book.


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[Assistant] So in his book, Owen, who is a Trinity College mathematics professor, he explores the potential realities of poltergeist phenomena.


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[Assistant] Uh, phenomena, excuse me, paying particular attention to Virginia's experience. The book isn't exclusively about Virginia's case, but it did revive interest in that case in the UK, especially with the tabloid newspapers.


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[Assistant] In a 1965 article in the Sunday Mirror, five years after this had originally happened, the paper played up the family's rural origins and supposedly superstitious nature of Irish people, describing Donegal as a quaint, isolated part of, I think it's Aira is how you say it? It's E-I-R-E. I-era.


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[Assistant] You're supposed to say it with like an accent, but I'm not going to do that because it's not my accent. I have no idea.


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[Assistant] But it says where banshees are said to wail before death and tiny leprechauns prance at the bottom of the gardens.


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[Assistant] The story of Virginia's experience with the poltergeist that she and her friends had come to refer to as Wee Huey. That's where Wee Huey comes in. Eventually, Virginia named her poltergeist. Wee little Huey. I love that she was like, you know what? He needs a name. Hell yeah. But eventually they got around to the question every reader wanted answered. What caused the poltergeist?


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[Assistant] Now most people simply believed it was a matter of what Owen called, I hate the name of this theory, it's called the naughty little girl theory. Yeah, it's upsetting. Yeah, I don't love it.


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[Assistant] This theory was saying that the activity was nothing more than a prank caused by Virginia herself.


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[Assistant] After all, she had been through a serious disruption in her life. Maybe, you know, feeling anxious or unstable with both parents absent. So she created the wee-hee-wee scenario in order to get attention. That was one theory. Okay. I personally don't buy that one because we've looked at all the ways in which she couldn't have caused what was going on. Well, that's the thing. It's like that would be a, that would be a very good theory.


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[Assistant] And it makes sense. If there wasn't times when even adults were like, I don't know how she could have done that. Exactly. And like the, the-


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[Assistant] Thought process behind the theory makes sense. Yeah. When you look at the disruption in her life and everything. The upheaval, all the, yeah. But then like you said, even the adults were like, nope, no way. That's where it's confusing, cause it's like, how did she pull that shit up? So that's where you kinda have to axe that theory, and it's great that you have to anyway. Yeah.


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[Assistant] When girls are approaching puberty, they often seem to attract poltergeist phenomena. There are many cases which suggest that activity is more likely to arise in that age group.


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[Assistant] That's weird as fuck. And it's be- I guess it's because your body is going through a lot of upheaval. It's real weird. It is a little weird.


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[Assistant] I'm not like offended by him or anything. I'm just- No, just- For some reason that just always makes me think like, eugh.


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[Assistant] Come on, I mean that sucks. But then it kind of makes sense because there are like a lot of entities like poltergeists and all different kind of entities that will attach to somebody while they're going through serious upheaval in life. Yeaah.


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[Assistant] Your hormones being all out of whack and like- Wow, we should start warning kids about that. We should start being like, here's the ins and outs of puberty and what you can expect. Here's the Poltergeist section. In rare occasions, you might-


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[Assistant] So Owen theorized that moving from Ireland to a new home where she was uncomfortable, along with those feelings of loss from having parted with her dog and her best friend, left Virginia, quote, in a state of some tension. And he believed the result was, quote,


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[Assistant] Circumstances may well have triggered off a physical force around her, which is not yet known to science. Now unfortunately, while Owen could offer those theories as to what may have triggered the paranormal events around Virginia, he was at a loss to explain precisely how those phenomena function. But the Sunday Mirror summarized


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[Assistant] That's hilarious that that's how they summarize this entire thing. They were like, welp, yeah, periods. Periods. They are wily and they can create demonic presence.


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[Assistant] So initially, he was kind of trying to investigate this, like I just said, and he was struggling to find anybody related to the case, and all his letters and his phone calls were going unanswered.


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[Assistant] She said, I had never really heard the word poltergeist before. I thought it was some kind of medicine. That's how naive I was. Poltergeist. Do two poltergeists and call me in the morning. Imagine.


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[Assistant] As the press was relentlessly pursuing the family and actually even waited outside of school.


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[Assistant] And I, I love that the Reverend and like the doctors were like, we need to put a stop to this because she deserves to live a normal life. Yeah, like we don't want to make this a big, a big media circus. Yeah.


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[Assistant] If they were like all about it, it would be one thing. Yeaah. But the fact that they wanted it to go away. And to protect her. Yeaah. It's so pure. Yeaah. And you don't really hear that a lot when we talk about these stories. Usually it's very like... You're like, what's happening? Yeaah.


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[Assistant] So Davidson also added some of the less savory details that wouldn't have been published by the press in the 60s, including a frightening incident where Virginia was harassed by a woman who believed her to be, quote, one of God's chosen ones and asked if she could touch her.


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[Assistant] Somebody just, you walk up to a child and ask if you can touch them.


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[Assistant] Because I think you're one of God's chosen ones?


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[Assistant] I'd be like, you better hope you are, cause I'm about to send you into eternity right now for asking my child if you can touch them. Like, what the fuck?


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[Assistant] Damn. Weird. That's fucked up. That's, yeah, that's not good. Ew. So for the most part, Robinson's investigation just kind of reiterated what was already reported in Owen's book 30 years earlier. It didn't offer a ton of additional details other than the ones I just mentioned. Yeah. Or really any new theories that could explain what happened to Virginia.


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[Assistant] But it did underscore what made this case so fascinating in the first place, because...


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[Assistant] Like I said a little bit earlier, unlike the majority of supposed hauntings and so-called poltergeist activity that had been reported on before and since Virginia's claims had been made,


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[Assistant] This poltergeist case does remain one of the few that still defies explanation. We still have no idea what the fuck happened and why it did. They couldn't confirm or debunk it.


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[Assistant] Exactly. Which is always the ones you wanna, you wanna pay attention to.


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[Assistant] Now as Owen pointed out in 1965, obviously it's possible to trick someone, like one person or even a handful of people into believing something is real.


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[Assistant] But to trick multiple professionals with no connection to this home and an entire classroom full of students and a teacher and like a myriad of other people into seeing and hearing things that weren't there.


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[Assistant] No way. So this really happened. Meaning, it's entirely possible that there is some truth to Owen's conclusion. The poltergeist phenomena were real and not due to trickery, ground tremors, or induced weightlessness. That was a quote. Induced weightlessness.


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[Assistant] I like that. So Virginia Campbell's experience with Wee Huey the Poltergeist is in a lot of ways similar to so many other stories, except for the fact that people believed her.


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[Assistant] So, but maybe that is why this particular case lacked the level of aggression and violence that we see in so many other cases. And maybe that's also why it was kind of resolved in a relatively short matter of time. Because everybody gave it the attention it deserved and believed her. Exactly, like this thing didn't feel like it needed to get bigger and bigger to prove that it existed. Yeah. Yeah.


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[Assistant] So in the weeks and months after the intersessional prayer, the Campbells said they experienced only occasional activity in the form of knocking noises and a slight movement of objects, but nothing at all like they had experienced in late November of 1960.


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[Assistant] And a few months after the press coverage ended, James, Annie, and Virginia did move out of Thomas and Isabella Campbell's house and into their own home in the Scottish Midlands, seeming to leave little wee Huey behind and Sokie.


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[Assistant] See ya wee-hee-wee. Bye. Now a few years later after she finally settled into her new life in Scotland, Virginia got a job working in a factory, and she was free of disruptive forces, so she was able to enjoy the things that girls like to enjoy. Good for her, man. And people like to enjoy.


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[Assistant] Now in a final note closing out the series of articles in 1965, Virginia said of the poltergeist, it never really worried me, but for the sake of others, I hope it never returns. Ooh. And that is the end of Wee Huey, the Soakie Poltergeist. What an end to that. I hope it never returns. See, this has like, it's poltergeisty, but it's also like a little like, fey realm.


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[Assistant] Yeah? To me? I could see that. Totally. It feels very like...


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[Assistant] Fuck around. Fuck around, find out, so. I feel like it's, and maybe it's because...


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[Assistant] That always happens to us. It always winds up, cause we're reading those and it just, it kept making me think about it all, the like mischief and shit. Yeah, I meant to say, your case that you did, uhm, earlier, I'm not gonna say the, the true, the true. The tour short.


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[Assistant] There was like a date that you had mentioned in the whole case, and I think it's releasing around the same time, like now. Oh, that is weird. Yeah, isn't that weird? That is very strange. We always have things like that happen. Yeah.


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[Assistant] Oh yeaah, cause I think the actual trials were October. Yeaah, they were. October 10th or something like that? I think you're right, and I think it's, uh, I think you said like the 12th or the 15th. Yeaah, probably, I think that's just in my head. But it was, I think it's releasing around that same time. So it's just weird. Very weird, we don't play these things. I wish I could say we do, that would make us a lot more...


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[Assistant] You know, with it, but I think this is just the universe guiding us here. I was gonna say, maybe we are super with it, and we just don't even know how with it we are. We're the most with it. Yeah, kids. What is that gif of the guy doing the kid, like...


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[Assistant] Like with the kids. Oh hello youths. Hello youths. Hello youths. Hello universe. Hello kids. I dunno. I dunno.


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[Assistant] But you know what's not morbid? What? We have a freaking coffee that is launching and like realistically what goes better together than true crime and coffee?


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[Assistant] But you know what? We're bringing it. Oh yeaah. We may be feeling grey right now, but we're bringing it. Bringing it right now.


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[Assistant] Hello! You probably know Jodie as Stephanie Tanner like first and foremost because iconic. Iconic. But Jodie, thank you so much for coming on. This is like huge for us. We're so excited. Oh my gosh.


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[Assistant] Yeah, it was kids, it was elderly, everything in between.


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[Assistant] No, I was just, those two are, like, it really is the chaos of it all that stresses me out, especially about the Night Stalker case. Yeah. When you can go down to, like,


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[Assistant] Kids, and go all the way up to like 90 year olds, and everything in between, it's like,


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[Assistant] There's people that keep coming in my room and they're trying to cut my sheets with scissors. And I was like, right?


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[Assistant] Know what to do here. And it's like, you're like, okay, I can't freak out cause I can't freak them out more. So I was like, right, right. And then I was like,


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[Assistant] Say hi you guys. It's like, I'm gonna give this a try. So it's like, hey guys, like you're freaking them out. Like, can you just like chill out and not try to cut their sheets tonight? Like we'll talk about it tomorrow maybe.


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[Assistant] And they were like, I was like, is everything good now? And they were like, yeah. They never complained about it again. Just like one time.


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[Assistant] Yeah. It's fun with my, I have seven year old twins and we're coming out of that a little bit with them, but my three year old is like, Paw Patrol! And I'm like, ah.


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[Assistant] Yeah, we're gonna talk about the Jersey Devil today. Or the Devil in the Pine Barren.


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[Assistant] Honestly, he might though, cause there's a lot of different versions of him, so who knows.


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[Assistant] I am all about it. I love a good cryptid. A good cryptid. We got so many here because we're like around the Bridgewater Triangle where all that fun stuff is.


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[Assistant] No thank you. No, you're our people. We would go in with you. We gotta take you to the Lizzie Borden house. Yeah. It's close by us.


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[Assistant] So we're gonna talk about the birth of the Jersey Devil first. So, the story of the Jersey Devil is kind of unique to the United States for sure. It's the Pine Barrens is where it came out of.


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[Assistant] So the Pine Barrens in New Jersey is a very dense forested region and it covers more than 1700 square miles. Wow. Which is apparently 1.1 million acres. Holy shit. That's a lot of acres. That's all of the acres. That's a lot of acres. That's many acres. And it's in Southeastern New Jersey. So,


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[Assistant] What's really spooky about this place is that although New Jersey is one of the more heavily populated states in the country, according to author James McCloy, quote, one can travel in the pines for many miles and not encounter a single sign of modern civilization.


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[Assistant] So in addition to a large amount of timber harvested from the pines, the area was also really important for being a source of iron ore.


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[Assistant] And it kind of drove the iron industry and munitions production during the 17th and 18th century.


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[Assistant] So it's a pretty critical part of the region's economy, but when manufacturers began relying on cheaper and more plentiful iron ore from the West in the mid-19th century,


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[Assistant] What was once a dense population in and around the pine barrens started to kind of dwindle down.


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[Assistant] So who remained were this small number of really like rugged individuals who were just living off the land kind of thing. They were like, we're not leaving.


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[Assistant] And I think they're like, the places around them who were more into like modern conveniences would derogatorily refer to them as the pineys because they were left in the pine barrens. And honestly, the pineys were like,


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[Assistant] I don't give a shit, like it's cool in here, it's quiet. They're like, we don't like you anyway. So this is kind of a perfect setting for one of these cryptids or urban legends to come about where it's like the people in the modern civilization with the people who refuse to leave the Pine Barrens kind of thing.


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[Assistant] Close enough. It's reminiscent for sure.


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[Assistant] So according to McCloy, one of the earliest versions of the Jersey Devil's origins are from a woman named Jane Leeds.


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[Assistant] So Leeds lived in Estillville, New Jersey, which is about an hour away from the Pine Barrens. And she was a mother of twelve. Whoa. Of twelve what? Twelve children? At the time, well actually, yeah, twelve children, I will say.


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[Assistant] There you go. Oh, great movie again. And it's, I wonder why, but she was actually referred to as Mother Leeds. And I'm like, huh, where'd you get that name? Oh, who could know? The dozens of children. That's weird. But, and she's still referred to as that when people talk about this story.


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[Assistant] They created a civilization of their own. But that, it was that 13th child that she was not psyched about.


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[Assistant] And she said, she said, I am tired of children, let it be the devil. Let this baby be the devil, she said. Which I have a couple questions. Like the baby in you? Yea, like what, why, why the devil? And two, a child would be easier to deal with, I feel like.


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[Assistant] And she got it. Because apparently this beastly child came into the world on the evening of a violent storm that actually came from the direction of the Pine Barrens in 1735.


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[Assistant] This is easily what explains what happened, because the legend goes that Mother Leeds gave birth to a healthy, very normal average child, but within minutes of being placed in her arms, the baby began to change into a terribly unholy thing. Now according to McCloy, this is a quote,


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[Assistant] Human features disappeared. The body elongated tremendously, forming into a long serpentine shape.


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[Assistant] Hooves replace the feet. Its pink chubby baby face coarsened into a long bony structure of a horse's head.


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[Assistant] And then he flapped his huge wings and shot right up the chimney and out into the night.


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[Assistant] So according to this account, this very believable account, McCloy notes several sleeping children with a Jersey Devil's first worldly meal, which is rude.


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[Assistant] Other versions say that his first meal was just the entire Leeds family, so. Well, there was a lot of them to, you know, to go through. He either ate his entire family, all 12 children, mama Leeds, and if there was a daddy Leeds, he was gone too, or he just went out into the night and ate a bunch of sleeping kids.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I think so. You don't want to work for it. I mean, my kid's first meal was mashed up avocado, but like...


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[Assistant] Sleeping babies are, I guess, a great first meal. Sleeping babies, mashed avocado, whatever works. Whatever works. Whatever you have on hand. Choices.


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[Assistant] There's another version of this story too, in case that wasn't good enough. So this version takes poor mother Leeds totally out of the equation entirely. This baby's creator? Oh yea, cause now there's a totally different young woman who is also lonely. We gotta make sure that we know she's lonely. And she's from Leeds Point.


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[Assistant] You're a witch. So it's like, yeah, I think they're all lonely is pretty much it. But apparently this poor woman fell in love with a British soldier during the American Revolution. And so the obvious punishment for that is getting a devil baby.


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[Assistant] Because she betrayed the American cause. Obviously.


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[Assistant] So, like any legend, the Jersey Devil exists mostly, or in large part I would say, to kind of explain a variety of unfortunate or difficult events and phenomena in the region.


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[Assistant] The Jersey Devil. The Echo and the Zoom. It's his fault. The planets going backwards. All of it. They would blame like droughts and crops on the Jersey Devil. Cows under producing milk. The Jersey Devil. The absence of fish in a local stream. The Jersey Devil. It's all his fault.


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[Assistant] There you go. Commodore Steven Decatur. I like it. He visited the Hanover Ironworks in Burlington, New Jersey just to like oversee the production of cannonballs because he wanted to make sure they met his standards and would actually work, you know? Imagine if that was your job. The oversight of cannonballs. Truly, I just gotta make sure they're cannonballs.


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[Assistant] But that afternoon while he was readying the cannons for test firing, he observed a bizarre creature flapping its wings across the range. And everyone present on the range that day backed up that his aim was perfect when he fired the cannon directly through the Jersey Devil.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And apparently, literally ripped a hole straight through the Jersey Devil, but the Jersey Devil just was like, eh, and he just kept going. Like merely a flesh wound and just flew off.


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[Assistant] It was not at all worried about this, but everyone there was like, saw it, he shot a cannonball at the Jersey Devil.


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[Assistant] Now across southern New Jersey, the devil was definitely a common scapegoat. Uhm, he was blamed throughout this 19th century again for like loss of livestock on farms. Uh, he became the source of howling and shrieking that would be heard by farmers, which I'm also like, maybe what was it if it wasn't that?


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[Assistant] But we're just blaming a cryptid. But every now and then, apparently the devil would make his way out of the pines and would be spotted on battlefields and more heavily populated areas like Atlantic City. So there were sightings. He's a tourist. You know, he just wants to see the sights.


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[Assistant] So on July 29th, 1899, issues of the New Jersey City News reported that the Beast had quote, reappeared in New Jersey for the first time since it warned the pioneers of the approach of the Civil War. Which I was like, wow. I love that he just is like, hey guys.


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[Assistant] I think he's probably gotten used to it at this point. Uh, but he was believed to have been banished from the area many years after bringing considerable misfortune to the residents of Jersey, of South Jersey.


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[Assistant] You crossed a line. Well, several years later, in the spring of 1905, the devil started making headlines again, and this time with a slightly different story attached to him now.


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[Assistant] So in the article, exactly, it changes a hundred thousand times. Changing up, right? He's always evolving with the times.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So the article is titled Story of the Leeds Devil, and a reporter for Camden's Morning Post newspaper alleged that the devil had been born many years ago in Bordentown, New Jersey, and was the product of a relationship between an American sea captain and his wife.


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[Assistant] Well now, it does, it does involve, um, cause they called him, uh, they called the woman a tarlatan before she married the captain, which when I first heard that, I was like, is that like a mixture of a harlot and a tart?


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[Assistant] That's what I thought it would be. But apparently, Tarleton is a village in England. So I think they were just going back to that whole like...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It's not an American, so that's what happened. But like the mother leads origin story, the captain's wife wished not to have a second child and was not psyched about the baby even before it was born.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So, she gave birth to a child bearing a close resemblance to the orthodox devil. Oh, so now we're getting the real devil into it. Exactly.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But apparently he became known in the neighborhood as the Leeds Devil. And I love cause when this came out it was like-


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[Assistant] So despite being described as looking like the orthodox devil and being described as a demon-human hybrid,


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[Assistant] The morning post said that the beast is not just something of legend, but was actually a real creature that terrorized the town until it crawled into the fireplace and up the chimney and into the pine barrens. So it's always going up a chimney.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But once he had left to go in the pines, he would be seen by townsfolk in and around the pines and in the woodlands and desolate tracks in the southern section of the state. Okay.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That was going on. And then for much of the 19th century, the story, it appeared in newspapers from time to time, but it kind of was just like a oral storytelling thing.


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[Assistant] And by the beginning of the 20th century, all of a sudden there was a rash of sightings in more than 30 different towns and it elevated this story to be like a full-blown like national thing that everybody was watching.


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[Assistant] And during the week of January 16th, 1909, thousands of people from southern New Jersey to Trenton reported seeing the Jersey Devil. Or at least seeing the tracks left behind.


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[Assistant] So in Trenton, the Devil's hoof prints were discovered in Whitehorse Park and in some backyards of a bunch of residence houses. Oh my god. Imagine if that was your house. I'm saying.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I get it. Carry on. Carry on my friend. Thanks for the visit. Yeah.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And apparently after these reports came out in Trenton, letters from residents in nearby towns started reporting sightings of what they described as a one legged, one footed bird that had been lurking about the city and attacking small animals.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Never. So the attacks caused a small panic, but to along, uh, southern and northern New Jersey. So much so, and I would say this is more than a small panic. They, uhm, actually closed schools and factories down at one point.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Because they were so panicked and residents were locking their doors and windows like scared this thing was going to come into their house.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That was his thing. He was like, I don't want to be shot by a cannonball again. I'm going to shut all this shit down. And I don't want these kids getting smart enough to go work in a factory.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So one man in Bristol was actually awakened one night to his young daughter's screams in the night, and when he ran into her room, he saw through the window a large beast standing just outside along the banks of the river.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And he described the noises it was making as quote, like the scratching of a phonograph before the music begins. And yet it also had something of a whistle to it. You know how the factory whistle sounds? Well, it was something like that. And I said, no, sir, I don't know what the factory whistle sounds like, but I can imagine.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now, everyone from children to police officers reported seeing the Jersey Devil. And in one case, patrolman James Sackville


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And when he turned to leave the area, he ended up finding himself standing right in front of the Jersey Devil. Oof. Also this guy, patrolman James Sackville, he went on to serve as the city's chief of police. Oh damn. And he described the devil as winged and hopping like a bird, but also had the features of some peculiar animal.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And he claimed, which this is my favorite claim, cause I'm like, no you didn't. He claims that he ran towards the beast and I was like, did you, James, did you? Who would ever? I don't know. I don't know about that. Untrue. If this thing is standing there looking the way it looks and it goes, ricker ricker.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Mmhm. He also said that it emitted a frightening cry or its frightening cry until it flew out of sight. So it went and then ran out of, it was like remix. I'm going to leave.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now, while most who claim to have seen the beast described it as bird-like, at least with the wings and all that and that like screechy sound, well some used completely unique descriptions. E.W. Minister, Bristol's postmaster at the time, described the devil as having a head resembling that of a ram with curled horns.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And he said his neck was thrust forward in flight. So he was just sliving. He's just, he's just sliving.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But he ended up making his way south from Trenton and, uh, he began causing some more havoc.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now in the early morning hours of January 19th, Mr. and Mrs. Nelson Evans


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Well, a couple on your birthday, they were woken up by strange noises and looked out their window to find the devil, quote, cavorting before their eyes on the roof of their shed.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You've got an entire Pine Barrens to do that in with like a lack of civilization. This feels inappropriate.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That's what I was just thinking. Well he did have a long neck, wings about two feet long. This is what's weird though, he said his back legs were like those of a crane, and it had horses hooves. What? Sir!


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He also said he watched this thing for about 10 minutes in the backyard and then he opened the window. This is my favorite part. He said he opened the window and he went SHOO!


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And the devil turned around, barked at him, and then flew away.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Less the entire article. Rude. Which I was like-


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Okay, that's rude. That is directly at officer- Shots fired.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] A week later or so, sightings of the Jersey Devil after this little article, the sightings just kinda ended. And everyone was apparently shamed out of saying it. I was gonna say everyone was ashamed of themselves. Everyone was ashamed.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But then, the Jersey Devil, the Jersey Devil was like, you guys, no, like I'm not letting you be ashamed, because he made just one more appearance in a village just outside Salem that February, before returning to the Pine Barrens.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So in the months and years that followed, people all over southern New Jersey and northern Pennsylvania started to theorize as to what could have caused the sightings. And they were blaming it on everything from a complete hoax and misidentified creatures to genuine sightings of the actual Jersey Devil.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The Brooklyn Meteor Research Society suggested it was, quote, a type of marsupial carnivore, which a kangaroo is a marsupial, correct? Yeah, that's what I was just gonna say.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Or fishiped, both previously thought to be extinct. So we're thinking it's like an extinct creature that we are like, oh shit, we're wrong.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] If the Academy of Natural Sciences was unable to find evidence of any animal that would resemble anything described in the papers, it's probably because, despite some of the overlap in those descriptions, like, you know, the wings and the horse feet and the cloven hooves and all that stuff,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] They also varied so wildly from one description to the next that it's like of course you're not going to find something that makes sense.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Then many years after the Jersey Devil panic of 1909 had kinda ended, people in and around South Jersey started reporting, uh, reportedly started attempting to create additional action by making their own Jersey Devil footprints and reporting them to authorities and the press. They wanted to start it up again.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, of course not. All those other ones were real, but these were the fake ones. And in one case, a Philadelphia animal trainer was hoping to bolster attendance to his performances, so he kind of contributed to the press with the whole thing. He told reporters his vampire bat had escaped and was on the loose.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And attributed that to the increase in devil sightings. And actually this leads right into one of the biggest hoaxes was from that was probably the one that Norman Jeffries of New York


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Thank you. Why is there a kangaroo in upstate New York? Your guess is as good as mine. And it gets worse because he painted green stripes on the kangaroo. But the kangaroo licked the paint off before it dried.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So then he attempted to attach a set of wings and apparently the kangaroo just demolished the wings that he made because it's a kangaroo and it's like why the fuck are you putting wings on me?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And this whole thing happened in the basement of the Dime Museum, and spectators were led in one by one to look at the Jersey Devil, but they could only look at it for a second or two when the curtain would be lifted, and then it would be dropped immediately.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But throughout the 19th century, residents of southern New Jersey feared the Jersey Devil and they panicked at the mere mention of a sighting. It was a big deal.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That changed, because all of a sudden, instead of forming possies to go, you know, to put a bounty on his head, they were like, we kinda love him.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And while sightings of the creature definitely became less common than they once were, like we talked about earlier, the name became popular and even became the name of an NHL talkie team called the New Jersey Devils. Look at that foreshadowing. There you go.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] She started in the beginning, she was like, give a quote. Find them on TikTok, guys. At the Jersey Devil. Doing trending dances.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Thank you so much, and we're huge fans, so this was a big deal, I think.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And our researcher Dave, who did like all of the research for the Jersey Devil stuff. Great work Dave. Huge fan, huge hallmark, he's in the room right now. Hi Dave! Great job! You did great.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Hey Prime members, you can listen to Morbid early and ad free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today. Or you can listen ad free with Wondery Plus and Apple Podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey at Wondery.com slash survey.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That's it. That's it. That's the episode. See you later. Keep listening. Keep it weird. Keep it weird. They're like, girls? Like, shut the fuck up and tell me a story.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Gross! I realize that whenever I have a ponytail in my hair and I tell you a story, I do weird shit like this with it. Yeaah. Like I'll be talking and I'm just like, and then the guy was like...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And I just do like this a lot, we can post it. I just like, I'll be doing like this, or like sometimes I'll do a little bit of this, and I'm just like yeaah, you know? So I'm gonna post that.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That's funny, cause, ow, god damn, the tangles in my hair just ripped a piece out. Wow, fuck. My hair, brought to you by that. Uhm, I can multitask.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Smallest of things. Even the, the breaking headlines? Yeah, can't do it. Oh, that's weird. Sorry, I was just looking because my wave looked small, but.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Ooh, I'm ready. Which, that's a fun, that's a fun name in your mouth.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Doris Bither. Doris Bither. So, it all starts in the summer of 1974. Ooh, your time. My time. Your time to shine. It's not like super 70s, but, I mean it is, cause it's like in the middle of the 70s, but it's not super 70s feeling.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] About the supernatural. And she went up to them and she was like, listen, I have a friend who needs somebody with you guys' kind of expertise. Now the friend in question was Doris Bither. She was a middle-aged mama, she was a single mama of four kids, and boy was she going through it.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] She claimed that she and her family were under attack from unseen entities in their Culver City, California home.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now according to Doris, the attack started a few months earlier and they included, among other things, objects moving on their own, random and inexplicable foul odors in the house, unusual noises with no point of origin, typical.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And most distressingly, and this is like a little bit of a trigger warning moment, multiple physical and sexual assaults that were increasing in frequency and intensity as time went on. Oh. Yes. That escalated quickly. It did, yea.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So all of those things were of interest to these two paranormal investigators who were just vibing in a bookstore a moment previously. So they got permission from their supervisor at the UCLA parapsychology lab, Thelma Moss. I like how you said UCLA.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Of what has now become one of the most well-known and most controversial poltergeist cases.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Psychophysiology, which is a pretty broad field of study. It focuses on like the mind-body connection.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And when he wasn't studying or taking classes, he worked as an assistant at the UCLA parapsychology lab, which was like a niche little offshoot from the university's larger neuropsychology program. So much psychology. All the psych. All of it. And the neuropsychology program, like the big whole


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It was kinda like a big whole program that had these tiny little programs under it. Like an umbrella. Yes. It was headed by Dr. Thelma Moss.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So throughout the 1960s and 70s, there were new religious movements and occult practices that gained a lot of popularity across the US.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And that gave rise to what were previously little known or short lived academic programs like the UCLA, ah, I can't say UCLA anymore. UCLA, UCLA lab that were built around scientific or pseudoscientific study of paranormal phenomena. I like it. So Barry found out about the UCL program.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] According to him, this experiment when he was a teenager, it involved being handed a set of Dr. Moss's keys, who would later become his, uh, like the head of the lab there. So he got a set of her keys, and he was asked to provide information gleaned only through psychometry.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So after enrolling at UCLA, he lobbied hard to get a position as a research assistant in the parapsychology lab. And by 1974, as we know, he did. He got accepted as a part-time lab assistant.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He did claim that most of his time was spent, quote unquote, in the field conducting research.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And it was at UCLA that he met fellow student Kerry Gaynor, who was an undergraduate philosophy student and Kerry also had developed a strong interest in the supernatural. So they kind of teamed up together. I like it.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Me too. BFF's being spooky. Yeah. It's giving Sam and Colby. I'm into it. You know? Yeah. So that brings us to August, 1974, where Barry and Carrie were in a Los Angeles bookstore, loudly discussing the supernatural. Loudly. Loudly. They're like, ghosts! Loudly and proudly being like, parapsychology! Spirits! Poltergeists! What else?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So yes, they were loudly having that discussion previously, uh, inserted in here. And that's when they were approached by a middle-aged woman who said, like I said earlier, her friend, Doris Bither, was having, uh, paranormal activity in her home for months, and at this point she was very, very desperate for help with the situation.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But at the same time, she was also afraid to seek help from traditional organizations because I'm sure she was worried people wouldn't take her seriously. Of course.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now according to the friend, Doris and her three sons quote, claim to have seen semi-transparent apparitions of roughly human shape and size in their home.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Their interests were piqued, so the two men, Barry and Kerry, gave Doris's friend their information, and later they arranged to go out to Doris's house to conduct a preliminary interview.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So when they pulled up to Doris' house on the evening of August 22nd, 1974, they were surprised by what they saw.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Mary recalled, this house was a little shack. It was twice condemned by the city. She shouldn't have even been living there.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Oh. So already it's like, got creepy vibes. Now once inside, Barry and Carrie sat down with a noticeably anxious Doris and started their interview.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now from the moment they began asking her questions, it was clear to both of them that she was not comfortable talking about her personal history.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So they tried to make the decision to keep the interview focused on the paranormal activity occurring in the home and not getting like a ton of background information.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now Doris elaborated on the experience that they already had learned about from her friend at the bookstore. And then she told them about the worst aspect she believed was a haunting.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] According to her, on more than one occasion, and this is a trigger warning, it's like sexual assault,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] More than one occasion she had been sexually assaulted by an unseen entity, both while she was alone and while her children were home. Oh. Like in front of them. What the fuck? Super fucked up. She told them quote, the two smaller ones, meaning like the apparitions, held me down and one big one attacked me.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] In response, Barry said later, we just froze. Carrie and I looked at each other and I rolled my eyes back and put my hands on my head and thought, oh my God, this woman's psychotic. Wow. His words not mine. There you go. I was going to say quote. Yeah, quote.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But about 10 days later, Barry got a phone call from Doris claiming that since the two men had last visited, the paranormal activity at the house had gotten even worse and was now being experienced by her friends and her neighbors. Oh wow.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So when she mentioned that there were other witnesses outside of the home, their ears kind of perked up again a little bit. So they did agree to go back out for a follow-up interview.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So a few days later, they were back at Doris' house on Braddock Street and they were immediately hit by a terrible odor as soon as they walked in the door.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Barry said, it smelled like decomposing organic matter, rotting flesh, a very sour nauseating smell.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And as the three of them stood there talking in the kitchen, all of a sudden a cupboard opened on its own and a heavy frying pan came flying toward them in what Barry described as a ballistic arc.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, I don't think it hit anybody, luckily. Would've been, would've been painful. Exactly, but imagine you don't believe this woman and then you walk in and you're like, wow, it smells like shit in here, like.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Including one where she claimed a fuse box was torn off the wall and hurled at her by an unseen force.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I don't know, but it proved to Barry and Taft that regardless, or excuse me, that's the same person, Barry and Carrie.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That regardless of the cause, there was indeed something happening at Doris' house, and it was worth investigating formally. Wow. Can you imagine you're just standing there, and that happens. Very aggressive. It's very sixth sense. Yeah, it's just like angry. It is. That's the thing, I'm like, what's your problem?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I dunno. So in any investigation, paranormal or otherwise, the biographical information about the victim is usually pretty critical in solving the problem or understanding why it happened to begin with.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But in the case of Doris Bither, little is known about her life before the poltergeist activity began, other than vague allusions to a traumatic personal history.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Like, praise upon that weakness, kinda thing. Okay. And can sense it, maybe?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Or like attach itself to you in some way? Yea. If those things exist, it makes sense that that would be what they would be attracted to. Yea.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And so Barry said, Doris was very evasive and somewhat cryptic regarding her background, so much so that she refused to even tell us her age, which we knew was older than ours but not by how many years.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So they literally didn't even know how old she was. Wow. But what they did learn, which I do wonder if she like didn't want to give them too much information because she was like, almost like when you go get like a tarot reading or a psychic reading and you're like, you don't want to really like, um, kind of reveal anything that's going to help them. Yeah. You want to keep it up to them. Maybe that's what she was doing.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So what they did learn, mostly from observation, was that she was very poor and had an unstable employment history. She had four children at the time, three boys, aged 10, 13, and 16, and they lived with her on the condemned house on Braddock Street.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And she also had a preteen daughter who was living somewhere else at the time of the investigation.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now they also learned really quickly that she was a heavy drinker and she drank, she seemed to drink daily.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now during their time in the house, quote, the investigators observed poor relationships between Doris and the children and there was fighting among the siblings. Oh, that sounds so sad of a house. It sounds super sad and just like a very chaotic environment.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now among the most heavily criticized aspects of the Bither case,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Is Barry and Carrie's failure to collect any personal biographical information?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Where a trained psychologist or social worker might have seen a troubled woman needing help, Taff and Gaynor saw a golden opportunity to research a real haunting.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now, Barry, he explained the lack of information as a simple matter of protecting the case. He said,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Had we even attempted to secure the type of background information we currently collect?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Such as medical, psychological, family, psychodynamics, prescribed medications, as well as recreational drugs and alcohol usage. Doris surely would have shown us the door from the outset.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So he agreed, like, we wouldn't have been able to do this investigation. We tried to get her help.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, and she wanted their help, like she was asking for their help, so.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So basically, she was a very private woman and they weren't willing to lose out on investigating the case by pushing her boundaries. Yeah, I get that. I get she set up boundaries, don't push them.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I get that. Now in the years since more information about Doris has come to light, that gives a little more insight into her state of mind at the time of the investigation and possibly some explanation for some of the activity that she claimed to witness.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It should be said that most of the information learned after the investigation came from Doris' son, Brian Harris, who, Barry Taft points out, also struggled with addiction. And he did contradict himself a few times during the interview.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] This is what we do know. Doris was said to have been born in Illinois in 1940 to a very dysfunctional family, and according to the accounts of those who knew her, she had a really, really hard life from the beginning.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] As a teenager, she started experimenting with drugs and alcohol to escape her abusive home life. And she was generally just a rebellious teenager who was acting out more often than not.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And because of that, her parents kicked her out of the house while she still was a teenager. And she was forced to fend for herself.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Where she was living just before she moved to the house on Braddock Street in Culver City. The one that we're at now.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now the majority of the paranormal activity occurred in the house on Braddock Street, but the son, Brian Harris, claimed that there were quote, some psychokinetic events.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And even the occasional apparition, even before the family moved to Culver City.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So the haunting activity they said became, excuse me, began somewhat suddenly, just a few months after they moved into Braddock Street. It started with a weird, inescapable feeling of being watched.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Doris and her children hadn't experienced any violent activity, but that changed one evening a few weeks later.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Because like sleep paralysis, you kind of know that your body's doing it, like I guess? No you don't. Oh you don't? Yea. But I mean like she was seeing two things hold her down. Like do you see something hold you down when you have sleep paralysis?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I hate that. But I'm just saying, like, she saw the things that were holding her down and saw the thing attacking her. That's on, like, another level.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But from that point forward, the activity escalated more and more, and then it started to involve the children in various ways. According to Brian Harris, there were times when they were, quote, slapped by an unseen hand in the middle of the night. Ooh.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And he specifically recalled an incident involving, quote, one of the boys bumping into an invisible person in the hallway. Ugh.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Imagine you're just walking down your hallway and like you bump into a person but there's no person there. Oh, that like, ugh, I don't like that one. And interestingly, Doris and all three boys describe their experience in the house as having been with a male spirit.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] They never saw a physical manifestation of the entity, but they all alluded to it being a male presence. Okay. I definitely think you can kind of pick up on that. Yeah, I would say so. But interesting that all four of them felt the same way on that. Yeah, that is interesting.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It seems like obviously there were multiple entities, so it's like a bunch of dudes haunting this place. Oh.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeaah. It's really all except, I feel that.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So according to Brian Harris, not long after moving in, Doris received a knock on the door, on the front door one afternoon, and she opened it, and this is a quote, she discovered an old Mexican lady, possibly in her 70s or 80s, who had come to deliver a message to the new occupants.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So the woman just turned around and left without saying anything else, and a few months later, that's when everything started. That shit is straight out of a horror movie. Hate, hate, hate, loathe entirely.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Exactly. But this is real. But here you're like, oh, I can see why. You're like, alright, but that's still really scary. But still, and also you said some, we were just saying about horror movies, this, uh, became a horror movie. Oh, it did. I think it's, uh, I'll say it later, I think it's The Entity.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So once Mary and Kerry were convinced that there was more to Doris' story than they originally thought, and they got that permission from Thelma Moss to conduct the study,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now, similar into the investigation into Doris's personal history, the story of the paranormal investigation at the house on Braddock Street is light on the details, with the exception of one well documented incident.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I guess in a lot of ways, Doris's description of the activity in her home was similar to countless other stories of haunted houses and haunted people at the time.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You got the yucky smells, things moving on their own, weird noises. Yeah. Violent assaults by unseen hands.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And given the commonality of those experiences, it is worth noting that Doris' report came less than a year after the release of The Exorcist.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Where all of these things also happen. Yeaah. It's worth mentioning. Yeaah. Yeaah. You gotta give the both sides here. You do. Gotta be devil's advocate. And you decide. Dear listener.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So what set Doris's story apart though from the more run-of-the-mill hauntings were the less common reports of the violent sexual assaults.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Which I guess is sometimes referred to as, um, spectral rape or spectrophilia. Oh, I've never heard of that before. I have not either. But I'm glad that there's a name for it because you say sexual assault and you're like, well, it's, it's even more than that. Yeah. You're like, what's happening really here? It's scary.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now, Doris claimed that on multiple occasions she was...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But, in these events, Doris claims that she was held down, pushed and even thrown across the room, and then assaulted by at least one of the attackers.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Barry Tafro in 2014. According to Doris' testimony, this event took place on several separate occasions, each time leaving behind large and distinct black and blue wounds, especially around the ankles, wrists, breasts and groin area of the inner thighs. Oh!


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So she was literally covered in black and blues. And that's like very classic, like areas where...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So given the sensational and lurid nature of the assaults, it would be very fair to say that they were the aspect of the case that kind of elevated it above the more common reports of hauntings and poltergeist activity at the time.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So there were no witnesses to the assault outside of the family. Okay. And there wasn't any documentation of the physical evidence that had been left on her body. She just said what had happened. Okay. But I'm not doubting her. I'm just saying there's no evidence. If you look for it, it's not there. Just the reality. Yes.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now according to Barry, the physical and sexual assaults stopped altogether once the investigation began, and there were a large number of people coming and going at the Bither House. Okay. So I don't know if maybe the ghosts noted, like the...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Demon spirits noticed that there was people and were like, we're not gonna be able to get away with this.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I don't know about that. I think more people there to help her. Yeah. Perhaps, you know? Yeah, I guess. So despite the abrupt and kinda curious end of the physical and sexual assaults upon the introduction of potential witnesses, Barry and Carrie maintained their belief that Doris really was experiencing what she said, a genuine poltergeist activity.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And he kinda became, like, uhm, the unofficial spokesperson for the investigative team.


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[Assistant] And he claimed the real focus of the investigation was the moving objects and the frequently reported balls of light that manifested around Doris during this time.


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[Assistant] That we're not there for, that we've never seen. Exactly. I think that's a smart way to go about it.


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[Assistant] So at the time of the investigation, the UCLA Parapsychology Lab was among the most underfunded programs on campus. And because she herself was skeptical of Doris' claims, Dr. Thelma Moss refused to direct any resources, substantial resources, toward the investigation.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So because of that, Taff and the team of mostly student researchers relied on pretty basic techniques for collecting their evidence. They did, you know, traditional photography, temperature gauges.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] At first, they tried to communicate with the entity, quote, asking spirits to create sounds or manipulate lights in response to questions.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So, they made other attempts to communicate with the spirits, and they relied on Doris's friend, who claimed to be psychic, Candy.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now aside from occasionally screaming out, quote, that there was something in the corner, not that she could see, but sense.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But then, as they were assembled in the kitchen, Doris' friend Candy shouted, It's right in front of my face!


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[Assistant] Alright, interesting. And then this photo, which I'll talk about in a second, is supposed to be the control photo that they took.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And I think that thing across her face is like a scratch on the photo. I don't think it's the entity.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Interesting. Okay. So we'll talk about those.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The two images in, there are two images in the series that show Candy, who is slightly obscured by what she said the entity was, and she claimed it was right in front of her at the time that the photos were taken.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And then the third image that I just showed Elena was the control image and it's included for comparison.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It shows an unobstructed image of Candy just after the entity photos were taken.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But, as writer Kenny Biddle points out, there is an obvious problem with the control image, in that the other two photos were taken using the camera's flash. Thank you, I was literally about to point that out. And the third was not. Yeah. Obviously.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He writes, in the two entity photos, we can clearly see hard shadows cast by Candy Silhouette.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Both hard shadows are consistent with the use of a flash bar on the Polaroid camera, which features single-use bulbs, five on each side.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It also, to me, it doesn't look like the same place. Cause they even took it at a different angle, it feels like. Yeaah. They at least step back. It's hard because you guys will see it once we post the images. To me, it doesn't look like she's in the same room.


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[Assistant] Yeah, cause in the third photo, which is the control photo, there's like a Ouija board in front of her. If you look closely, you can see like a curtain and like some, I think what's wood paneled walls.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But the curtain in the photos that she claims the ghost is in front of her, the spirit or whatever, there's different curtains. And she seems like there's another lamp behind her.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Cause the overblown yellow hue that investigators claim is evidence of the entity to be present in those photos versus the control photo. Cause it's like blown out, it looks like. The first two photos look blown out completely. And the third one just looks like a dark, bad photo. Exactly.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So Barry Taff admitted on multiple occasions that they were not very familiar with the cameras and made mistakes with the settings quite often during the investigation and he did say it rendered most of the photos useless regardless of their content. I mean at least he admits it.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So according to him, quote, as we spent more time there, we began observing balls of light. So now we're moving on to something else. He said what we call corpuscular masses of light. Ooh.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I like that. I know. That looks like- Puscular masses of light. That look like plasma, which is the fourth state of matter. Ooh.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He's getting scientific here. I was just gonna say, let's talk science. The word corpuscular.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Just on the other side of that. It's a high brow a little bit, you know? You know, this was, you know, words with Ash and Alaina. Thank you for tuning in.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Taff claims that the balls of light that manifested around Doris were seen by many people on the investigative team. Interesting. In a summary note prepared by Barry and Carrie, they describe the orbs of light as, quote, displays of small, rapidly moving balls of light on several occasions, which occurred in the presence of a woman in her mid to late thirties, Doris.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The lights were reported to change their motion, size, and intensity in response to the investigators' requests and to the occasional emotional outbursts of the female agent, Doris.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Attempts to photograph the lights were reportedly met with no success on most occasions, although in a few rare instances the lights were captured on film as curved arcs of light, akin to the trails that can appear in photos of lighted objects. I'll show you a picture in a minute. Okay.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So given the lack of other tangible evidence, the orbs of light quickly became the focus of the investigation and would go on to be the most heavily documented.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And most controversial aspect of the Bither case.


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[Assistant] So they were determined to capture the orbs on film and about halfway into the investigation, the team decided they were going to set up several cameras in Doris's room because that was where the orb based activity seemed to be the heaviest. Okay.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So at first, nothing happened, but the team kept checking in and sure enough, the orb activity increased in intensity.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now, eventually I guess the lights became so bright that they illuminated the entire room.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Damn. Isn't that crazy? And during one of those incidents, Taff says, the orbs collected in the corner of the room, forming the shape of the upper torso of a very large man.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He said, it was an apparition made out of, not bathed in, lime green light. Ooh, I like how he worded that. Yeaah. That he was made out of, not bathed in. Not bathed in the light, like the light made him. Lime green light.


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[Assistant] According to TAF, two of the assistants at UCLA, quote, big hulking guys passed out because they were so traumatized by what they were seeing, their brain just wouldn't accept it. Holy shit. Right?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So while the first experiment with the orbs yielded some results, the orbs proved really, really incredibly challenging to capture on film.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And when they did capture the orbs in a photo, there was nothing else in the photos that would allow for perspective to really show the trajectory or the true identity of what it really was.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And so they realized that they needed to alter their approach in order to properly document these orbs. So Taff and his team devised a new plan, and he describes that in his final report writing,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] We began by duct taping large black poster boards up on the walls and the ceiling of the bedroom, all of which were numbered and identified with a magnetic orientation. White duct tape was placed between the dark panels that formed a grid network, a grid network like graph paper.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Therein providing us with a reference for further attempts at photographing the lights.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Black poster board were also used to seal off all light entrances into the bedroom that rendered the environment almost pitch black.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Wow. So basically they set up like a fucking hypothesis here and really executed a science experiment.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I like it. They had a hypothesis. They did this scientific experiment on it. Boom. And that's science with Ash.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You're welcome. And that's science with Ash. With Ash, that's how it works. So it was during this visit that Taff and his team managed to capture a now pretty iconic photo of Doris sitting on her bed with an arc of light streaming over her head from what they say is one of the orbs traveling through the frame. Oh, I can see it. You got it. This one? Yep. So.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] In his description of the event, and the photo more specifically, Taff notes that had the streak of light been a projection from a light source rather than an independently moving object in the frame,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The arc would have bent when it hit the corner of the room where the two walls met an angle.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Definitely I get what he's saying about the corner. She's, I don't think she seems to be cowering very much. She just kinda looks like she's looking at it.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The picture clearly shows bare walls with no hint of poster board or tape.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You don't see any of that. That's the thing. Now, according to Taff, a few days after they set the room up with the poster board, but before they started taking pictures, they got a call from Doris who said, or who asked that they return as soon as possible. And he said, when they arrived at the house, they discovered that the poster board they hung had all been torn down. And that's when they got this photo.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now, Doris is very convenient. Doris claimed that it happened one afternoon while she and the kids were out of the house. Also convenient.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But Taff even acknowledges the possibility that she had torn everything down in order to bolster her claim and get some more attention. If this is what that was.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So after 10 weeks of investigation in Doris' home, Thelma Moss came to the house to witness what Barry and Carrie had claimed was happening, cause she's like, you're spending a lot of time on this, what are we getting out of this?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But during her visit to the house, she didn't witness anything unusual. At all.


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[Assistant] Now until that point, the majority of the activity Doris claimed to have experienced had been relayed to the investigators after the fact with no way to verify the accuracy of their claims. So given that Thelma Moss hadn't experienced anything unusual during her visit,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And the best that Barry and Carrie could come up with was a couple blurry photos. She pulled the plug on the project.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And the investigation. Yeah, I don't blame her. I don't either. I think she was like, listen, this is supposed to be legit and like, you guys aren't really getting a lot here and you've been here for 10 weeks. Like, this isn't worth it.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now by the time investigators had exited Doris' life, Doris' life, excuse me.


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[Assistant] So luckily, by the time Doris had started working with writer-slash-director Frank DeFelitta, DeFelitta, it's hard to say, he was working on the fictionalized account of her experience, a movie called The Entity.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Um, but at that point, he helped Barry Taff and Kerry Gaynor get in touch with Doris for a follow-up interview. Oh, that was nice of him. It was. So she claimed that things were quiet in her new house for a few weeks, but not long after moving,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The activity had started up again. Uh oh. And by the time the investigators reached out to her, she claimed it was affecting the houses on either side of her. Oh. Mhm.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now obviously frightened by the flying vase, the trio turned toward the direction it had come from and realized they were not alone in the room.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Taff claims they began hearing heavy breathing getting closer as they stood there motionless, followed by a kind of shuffling coming in their direction.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And then all of the sudden, the reel-to-reel recorder that Carrie had been running was turned off by an unseen hand and they decided right then and there to


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Conclude their interview and get the fuck out of that house. But they were recording when that happened? Yes. Okay. That's what they said.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But they lost touch with her a couple months later when she moved to Texas. And she didn't leave any contact information that time either.


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[Assistant] Now in his assessment of the case, skeptic Benjamin Radford wrote,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now unfortunately some people feel like what she found was two opportunistic college students who were hoping to make a name for themselves.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Exactly. The Warrens. Mhm. And I guess they and like those people feel like when Barry and Carrie had gotten all they could from her, they walked out of her life and never really offered much help or explanation for her experiences.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now sadly, she died from respiratory failure in 1999. Oh wow. At the age of 59. Oh, she was young. And according to her son Brian, she was plagued by paranormal harassment until the day that she died. Wow. So I don't know what I think about this case.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Wow. I don't, that picture with the light is really interesting, but I don't know if there's a way to make that happen.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Let me hear some stuff. Exactly. Like you had tape recorders back then.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, just, I don't know. I don't know. I think the lack of evidence here kind of makes me feel like maybe they were just hoping to make it big and they saw this as an opportunity. Yeah.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The fact that her son said that she was, he was, or she, excuse me, was haunted until the day that she died and like this activity even started before that house. Yeah. But then I was...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] In my head I'm like, why would they leave the second house?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] When the, when the curious paranormal activity started.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You know, I'm doing okay. I had a very nice...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Here, we'll get mine over with. Yours was beautiful and I should have stayed with you. I had a very nice weekend with John and the little gals. We just had fun, we played board games, we watched movies, we played outside. It was just like a very nice, we did some fun things. And I wrote a lot, which is, it always like just


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, but, and I was also listening to an audiobook that was really good whenever I could. It is, uhm, it's one that I've already like read the hardcover of, but I'm just revisiting. It's Stephen King's On Writing.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Talks about his life and how he became a writer and like his do's and don'ts and it's just like, and it's, uhm, the audiobook is, uhm, narrated by him. Oh, I always love that. Which is fun.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And he reminded me that I need to be a little more, I say like he reminded me like we're buds. I'm manifesting here.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I'm manifesting being friends with Stephen King. I'm shaking my coffee and I'm sorry if you hear it. That's part of the manifestation process. She shakes her coffee around. Sorry about it. Sorry, it's just witch shit, okay? So, but he reminded me that I need, I've been trying


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] To get into routines better, because I thrive in a routine. Me too. But, like, this last year has been a tough year. It hasn't been a great year. It's been, uhm, how you say shitty.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Mr. King, if you will, he reminded me that you need to be strict on yourself when it comes to writing, and you need to write every single day, probably around the same time in the right, in the same place. That makes sense. At least that's what works for him.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That's how you got your first book done. That's the thing, and I was doing that and I was really rolling.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So I got myself back in that routine and I was like, I'm gonna do this and it feels so fucking good. I feel like alive. Well, I wanna start working out more in the morning before we start, so I feel like...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I can have my little workout time, you can have your writing time and we'll just meet and then record a cool episode. We'll meet with beautiful, thriving minds and bodies and souls. My therapist told me the three most important things to like maintain a healthy mind are getting enough sleep at night,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, cooking, like at home, cooking for yourself.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And exercising. And she was like, and not like going like crazy, but just like 30 minutes of exercise a day, like go for a walk, just.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] She's always, she's always, uh, teaching. She is. And I feel bad, maybe I just accidentally took all of your happy weekends.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But over the past couple years, I feel like I've become a little more introverted. I think because I'm like happy with my home life. Yeah.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You know what I learned in like the first couple weeks of 27?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Well, you know, that was our weekend, so I hope you guys, I hope you guys had more of a my weekend, if, like a happy weekend, I suppose.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Hang out with your kids, have my own kids, just fucking vibe. Oh, it's the best. Yeah. It's so much fun. Built in friends. They make you feel great. They do make me feel great. They really do. This morning, the hugs I got, I was like, oh bitch, why did I leave? Oh bitch.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Well, I guess, uhm, yeaah, so I hope you guys had a great weekend, and uhm, here we go. My loss. Because, we gotta do part two here, and it's gonna get a little rough.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I know, this case is really, really sad. Yeah, I think I should tell you right off the bat it's gonna get a little, a little tough to listen to. But there is, you know, this case involves sexual assault. It involves a very gruesome attack. And this guy's just a dick.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Alright, so in case you are just coming here, we are in part two of the murder, the kidnapping and murder of Denise Huber.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, when we last left you, police investigators had found that, uhm, chest freezer. Yes. In John Fomelaro's rented rider truck that he had stolen.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yup. And had kept for- For months and months. Many, many, many months. And they were like, oh yea, that is missing. Yes, and when they had opened the freezer, they had found a body inside.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] They were fairly certain that this was the body of missing Denise Huber.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Um, so that is where we left you. We're going to move right on to where the investigation began. Okay. So the body was transported to the medical examiner's office and that's where at first an external examination was conducted. This was done by Dr. Anne Buckholtz who was the medical examiner at the time.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Denise's head had been wrapped in three white kitchen garbage bags. Oh my god, that's gruesome. When they removed all of those garbage bags, you could see that her entire head had been covered in gray tape.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now Dr. Buchholz noted that the head had many external injuries to it. The skull was what she, what they referred to as basically shattered. Wow.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, horrifically, there was also noted to be a number of curved and oval shaped lacerations.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] There were also fragments of the white plastic bags that were embedded in these fractures in the skull.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Which indicated that the bags had been put over Denise's head before the injuries were inflicted.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] What? Because they had gone into the wounds. Oh.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] They ended up reconstructing her skull and they showed that there was at least 31 separate injuries to her skull.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Holy shit. 31 separate injuries. This guy is a monster. And Dr. Buchholz noted that there was probably many more than the 31 because there was fractions, fractures on top of fractures.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now the cause of death was determined to be blunt force drama to the head. I would think.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] There would have been a lot of bleeding when this happened. And the thing is outside of this, there didn't appear to be a lot of evidence of trauma anywhere else on the body. It seemed like it was very focused on her head.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Which is horrifying. Uhm, at first there didn't seem to be evidence of sexual assault and they were hoping that there wasn't.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, what they said was although Dr. Buchholz stated that a sexual assault can occur without trauma to the vaginal region, they didn't see any initially.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So they had to allow Denise's body to basically thaw out.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Before they could do all the tests they needed to, because remember she's been frozen for years at this point.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And when they came back, uhm, the, and this is really graphic, I'm sorry, the anal swabs were positive for the presence of some degraded semen. Oh my. Uhm, so she was raped.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] As so heartbreaking and shocking for Denise's family, her friends.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] LoneHuber, her mother, told reporters, it's not the answer we wanted, but at least we got it.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] They didn't even get a chance to run down anything and like, and hit a


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But they were trying to prepare themselves for the worst, and at least now they know.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now, Costa Mesa detectives were also very, very dismayed by this news. Sergeant Jerry Holloway said, this may be the end to one of this department's biggest frustrations ever. I would think.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Cause again, it's not like this was one of those things where they just had lead after lead and they didn't pan out. They got nothing. So this is, for it to end this way?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Is like a slap in the face. Like it really is. It's just like all of it came crashing down at once.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The discovery of Denise's body may have brought the search to a very, very tragic conclusion, but it did open up a whole new part of the case. Because everyone involved wanted to know, who the fuck is this guy?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] In those boxes they found several black garbage bags, like the one Denise's body had been wrapped in.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Several of Denise's belongings, personal belongings, were in boxes labeled Christmas. Her wallet, her checkbook, her car keys, her purse, her lipstick, her ID, everything she had on her. Several of the items appeared to be bloodstained as well.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Another box had the clothing she had been wearing the night she disappeared in it. Her jacket, her dress, her underwear, her high heels. The dress appeared to have been torn around the left shoulder and the shoes had


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now also in the box with Denise's clothing was a blood stained hammer.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] A bloodstained pair of men's jeans. A bloodstained sweatshirt.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Dried, blood soaked rags and a pair of surgical gloves turned inside out.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Who the fuck is this guy and the fact that he kept all of that? He even kept the surgical gloves. I was just gonna say even the gloves. Like just took them off how you would normally like inside out and threw them in a box.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And like just kept that in his house for, it's been three years at this point. He had kept it, like he had kept these...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So he kept like, I think you had said it last time, he kept like multiple, multiple trophies. So many items to look back at it. It also had a bloodstained nail puller.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Like construction nail puller. What was that used for? It's like a giant like crowbar looking thing with like a slit in it to like yank the nails out.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Oh my god. It sounds like he used many things to kill her with.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He's a fucking monster. Who is this man? He's a fucking monster. Seriously? This is another unfortunate instance where the guy named John is a shitbag. Damn it. Now inside the house they found more of what they needed to tie him to Denise and her body. In the house they found the receipt for the freezer.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] A ton of issues of the Orange County Register, which was a newspaper, and all of them had featured stories about Denise's disappearance.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] They also found a videotape of the episode of Inside Edition that featured a segment of Denise's disappearance. He taped it. And this one had like a whole segment about the search that had gone, undergone to find her, like with her family on it.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He saved everything and then had a videotape where he could watch her family and friends and the investigators missing her and trying to find her.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] What? And articles about the disappearance with quotes from her parents, with quotes from her family and friends, like- This is so disturbing. He's a fucking demon. Truly. And just found her by happenstance. Yeah.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And so, back in Costa Mesa, investigators began digging into his history and they started paying particular attention to his life around the time that Denise disappeared in 1991. And that year he was working as a commercial painter.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And had been living and working out of a warehouse space in Laguna Beach, California. Okay.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So of course they went straight to that warehouse space. Crime scene technicians found evidence of blood spatter.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] They found a huge blood stain behind the wall that was described as quote, a thick deep maroon color.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Oh my god. And nobody had ever discovered that before. In a corner. In a corner of this warehouse. In Laguna Beach, California. And nobody ever saw that and reported it? Cause this stain was behind the drywall. Oh, okay, sorry. That's the thing, they ripped out the drywall.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now his defense lawyer, Larry Katz, maintained that his client was innocent.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He told reporters, I have every confidence in my client's innocence. Somebody should have said, look me in the eyes and say that. Look me in the eyes. Are you kidding me? Yeah.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And yeaah, it's, and he also said that, uhm, Fomilaro was, quote, appropriately depressed about the situation. Oh yeaah, he's like super bummed that this happened.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But he also insisted that his client not speak to anyone, which that's pretty bold.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I'm shocked by that, like just hearing this man be like, and I understand, that's his job, I get it.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But it is shocking to hear all of that evidence.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Inclu- She was found there. On his property. The receipt for the freezer that she was found in was found there. The box for the handcuffs that are on her body currently when they found her is in his house. And I'm sorry, but what is circumstantial about like, his semen being found in her body?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Did he look up the definition of circumstantial? Like I'm a little confused. Don't you think that with a case like as Nara, like the way that she was found, wouldn't you go for like insanity at the very least? Truly. Rather than circumstantial. But I think honestly you couldn't go for insanity because it would be hard because of that taped inside edition thing, all the newspapers, like that shows that he


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He didn't find what he did wrong. He liked it. He sat there and watched, he sat there and watched her family cry about it.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now, I suppose we have to tell you about John Fomawaro. Well, I just want to know what the fuck he is. So he was born June 10th, 1957 in Long Island, New York. So he bought the freezer on his birthday. What the fuck?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It gets more and more horrifying the more you go into it.