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[Assistant] Actually produce similar findings. In his report, the doctor wrote,


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[Assistant] After years spent repressing the effects of childhood abuse and hiding his homosexuality in a community he worried would not accept him,


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[Assistant] Now, given the extent to which Bernie's attitude and behavior after Marjorie's death factored into his sentencing,


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[Assistant] And he was released from prison on- in May of 2014.


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[Assistant] And actually took up residence in Link Leader's garage in LA while he awaited a new hearing. What? Crazy twist of events.


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[Assistant] Now, in addition to the new psychological reports, Cole also indicated Bernie's confession had more or less been coerced, arguing


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[Assistant] That law enforcement officials threatened to release scandalous information to the public if he didn't tell the, if he didn't tell the truth.


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[Assistant] Now the allegations of both new evidence and a potentially coerced confession.


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[Assistant] He told reporters a new hearing felt like the right thing to do considering the circumstances.


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[Assistant] So, Bernie's new hearing finally came in April 2016, and a new jury learned of his history of abuse and how it affected his actions at the time of the murder and in the months that followed. Defense attorney Mike DeGuren


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[Assistant] Now the attorney also alleged that contrary to what the previous jury had heard about Bernie manipulating and isolating Marjorie in the months before her death, it was in fact Marjorie who quote,


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[Assistant] Alienated most of her relatives and who had a reputation of being unlikable.


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[Assistant] Which is like- Oh, we're going back to this again. Exactly. Thank you. Cool. So.


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[Assistant] The new jury deliberated for a little over four hours before returning with a sentence of 99 years or life in prison. Wow. Which weirdly feels like a nod to what her granddaughter said before, that he deserved 99 years. Yeah, it really does. It's like, did y'all get together and help that girl out? Which like, he deserves it. He didn't kill her, no matter what. It's true.


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[Assistant] So with a new sentence on the record, Bernie was returned to the Texas Department of Criminal Justice to continue serving his sentence, and he remains there to this day. Damn. What. A wild fucking story. Damn. That is...


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[Assistant] A roller coaster. It is. And poor Marjorie. That's the thing, to get the reputation that she not only got in life, but in death is just...


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[Assistant] Really sad. Like, it doesn't sound to me like most people took the time to try and understand her. And what she was dealing with. And jeez. Regardless of her


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[Assistant] Strange. It was an interesting decision. Because it's Jack Black Shirley MacLean.


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[Assistant] I don't really have any interest in watching it.


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[Assistant] Wild. So uhm, that is the tragic case of the murder of Marjorie Nugent. Poor Marjorie. The small town that really paraded around a man that murdered someone.


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[Assistant] He manipulated everybody. And he really placed himself in a position of looking like a hero.


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[Assistant] Good, that's, but like in growth, in growth there is change. Nah, not in my growth, no. She's, she's something everybody. She's a girly. She's a girly. She's out here.


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[Assistant] I honestly, I really feel as though you're, we were just talking about this, I feel like you're becoming more and more of a Virgo with each passing day.


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[Assistant] I can, I definitely have Virgo. I mean, it's in my big three, isn't it? Well, that's what I'm saying, because you're a Virgo rising. And I heard, uhm, that, like, the older you get, like, the more you go through life, you kind of morph more into your rising sign. Mine is Sagittarius. I feel that. And I like Sagis. So, like, I'll morph into a Sagis. Sagis, I feel like, maybe they, like, don't give as much of a fuck about things as Geminis do. Maybe?


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[Assistant] It's just a hope I think of mine. It's just a hope. Maybe they hope not to. Maybe. I don't know.


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[Assistant] He definitely possesses like some Capricorn qualities for sure. He's a January Capricorn. He's a January Capricorn, which is different, but he's also a Taurus Rising, and I was saying to him that lately I feel like he comes off way more Taurus, but they also say that you come off to other people like, like your rising sign is what you present to other people, I'm pretty sure. So I present to Virgo.


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[Assistant] Yeah, and that makes sense. I feel like Virgos are misunderstood and sometimes I feel like you're misunderstood. Yeah. Capricorns are too.


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[Assistant] Yeaah. It's interesting that we both have water moons. I just realized that. Look at that. Cause I'm a Pisces moon, which I don't like to claim out loud, but here we are. You know, I have, actually nevermind, I'm not gonna say that. Anyways.


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[Assistant] I'm getting back on track. So yea, let's get back on track. Let's get back on track. This is Sharon Kenney aka La Pistolera.


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[Assistant] Uhm, but that's the case that we're covering. We're in part two of that. And in part one, we covered, you know, Sharon's


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[Assistant] I would call a failed marriage to her first husband. I would also call that a failed marriage. Yea, his untimely and wildly, wildly suspicious death. Yes. We covered her affair with a married man named Walter, and then we found out that Walter's wife Patricia had been murdered and Sharon had not only been the one to find her,


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[Assistant] Sharon was arrested right after Patricia's funeral.


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[Assistant] I've said it like 42 times, but I am just gonna say it one more time. Trial heavy in the beginning of this one. Stick with me. I'm sticking. I'm here. I'm glad. You are, like, required by contract to be here, so while that means a lot to me that you're not going anywhere, it's also just the law.


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[Assistant] Yeah, I mean, that is very true. But if you're not contractually obligated to be here, I appreciate you and I love you. I love that. Yeah. We're all in this together. That's good. We're just not all under the same contracts. No.


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[Assistant] Sharon appeared before Magistrate J.J. Brady in an independence courtroom where she was formally arraigned with the first degree murder of Patricia Jones and a preliminary hearing was scheduled for June 16th.


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[Assistant] In the meantime, she was held on $20,000 bond, which friends and relatives actually wasted no time pulling together, and she was released that very afternoon.


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[Assistant] Like friends and relatives were like, yeah, I know that two people have been mysteriously shot or murdered around you lately in a span of two months, but like, I don't think you have anything to do with it. Wow.


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[Assistant] She's a high level manipulator. That's what we've been discovering.


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[Assistant] After the arraignment for Patricia's murder, the sheriff's department actually asked District Attorney William Collette.


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[Assistant] But the biggest issue for the prosecutor's office was the lack of forensic evidence connecting Sharon to both murders.


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[Assistant] They knew she was the last person to be seen with Patricia Jones, and she had been uncooperative from the start of the investigation, but...


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[Assistant] With the fourth bullet or the 20, or excuse me, without the fourth bullet or the .22 caliber pistol used in the shooting.


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[Assistant] Prosecutors knew that getting a conviction would be an uphill battle, but they were ready to climb uphill.


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[Assistant] Investigators, citizen volunteers, and even a troupe of boy scouts had scoured the crime scene with metal detectors, like I mentioned in part one, but still they hadn't found any evidence. But then...


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[Assistant] Finally, on June 2nd, a sergeant with the sheriff's office located the fourth slug lodged about six inches into the ground directly under where Patricia's body had been found. Oh, so it was lodged in there? It was lodged into the earth.


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[Assistant] It does feel like it- like it kinda does disappear because they've-


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[Assistant] They theorized that maybe she was shot there because there was some evidence that like some, something was shot there. Yeaah. Or somebody shot there.


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[Assistant] Yeaah. You know. That makes a lot of sense. What are you, writing like a novel about murder or something? No.


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[Assistant] You know, one more. Mhm, you're right. But anyway, finding that missing slug was huge. That was a huge win. Regardless. But it was immediately followed by a pretty big blow once they realized that the coroner had sent Patricia's body to the mortuary with the two remaining slugs still in the body.


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[Assistant] The mortuary and she had already been buried with those slugs still in her. Great. A spokesperson for the sheriff's office told reporters, we feel there was a negligence at the time of the autopsy. You feel that? They did feel that. I also feel that. I feel that from you know, decades.


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[Assistant] With evidence inside of her body, it gets worse.


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[Assistant] The more investigators dug into Patricia's case, the worse things looked for the prosecution. Not only had legit evidence been buried with the body,


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[Assistant] But the embalming process actually occurred before


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[Assistant] Coroner performed the autopsy. Shut the fuck up. They embalmed the body first before he did the autopsy. What?!


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[Assistant] How? And also, if this is not the first case that they've messed up for you, and you're pretty confident it's not gonna be the last, uh, we think it's time to hire a new coroner? Yeah, I'm gonna go on a limb here and say that coroner is not good at their job. Like, what? Also, I wonder if this, where, where did this take place? Independence, Missouri.


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[Assistant] He told detectives, this is wild, you're going to, you're gonna...


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[Assistant] I don't even know what you're gonna do, but you're gonna lose your mind at this. He told detectives finding the slugs in the body would be like looking for a needle in a haystack.


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[Assistant] He also told them that he did not want to conduct tests on the stomach contents because it would be, and I quote, too messy.


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[Assistant] Patricia's husband Walter Jones did actually allow them to exhume Patricia's body so that a proper autopsy could be conducted. Well thank goodness.


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[Assistant] Realistically, you can't even call it a proper autopsy at that point because she's already been fucking embalmed, but they could do way better than this guy did.


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[Assistant] He was able to determine that what Patricia ate before the murder. She had pickles and salami. Which, that's a girl dinner. That is.


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[Assistant] That truly is. And I would eat that and I want that right now. But he also confirmed that she had not been sexually assaulted.


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[Assistant] The new autopsy results were encouraging to the prosecution because they not only retrieved those remaining slugs,


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[Assistant] But they also concluded that the murder was not motivated by sexual deviance or robbery.


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[Assistant] Leaving the most likely explanation to be a personal grudge.


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[Assistant] Why else would this woman have been murdered? Now for Sharon, the investigation into both Patricia and James' deaths were immediately a big inconvenience.


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[Assistant] With the murder case reopened or opened in James' death, the insurance company stopped any payments on her claims, which left her with little money for her expensive defense attorneys or her expensive


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[Assistant] And she hoped that the money from those two things would keep her afloat until her payments resumed because she believed they would.


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[Assistant] As detectives in the prosecution kept building the case against her, or the cases, the introduction of Sharon's defense team slowed things down considerably.


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[Assistant] Because at every step of the way, they challenged almost everything the prosecution said or did or tried to admit or anything. And because of that, actually a full year passed before either case finally went to trial.


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[Assistant] And when they did finally go to trial, things did not look as good as the prosecution had hoped.


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[Assistant] With opening statements being given on the afternoon of June 14th. In his statement for the prosecution, Jay Arnett Hill presented the state's case.


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[Assistant] They believed Sharon Kenny had been having an affair with Walter Jones, and after he refused to divorce his wife, she lured Patricia to this meeting place and shot her to death. Once she killed Patricia,


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[Assistant] Sharon dumped her body in an area known to be frequented by young people.


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[Assistant] And stage the scene to quote, give indications that a crime of sexual passion had occurred.


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[Assistant] To me, I'm like, yeaah. But also, we have the background knowledge of...


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[Assistant] Like what? Wild. Absolutely wild. But going back to the prosecution's case, their case was pretty straight forward. It relied on a string of witnesses.


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[Assistant] They also relied on expert testimony from investigators and Dr. Wheeler, the actual medical coroner here, and he explained the results of the second autopsy.


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[Assistant] However, the prosecution still had several hurdles before them.


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[Assistant] Particularly the initial botched autopsy that was going to really play a big part in this case and fuck it all up.


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[Assistant] Now the lack of, uh, forensic evidence became apparent on cross-examination.


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[Assistant] When Lieutenant Harry Nesbitt from the sheriff's department was asked about the guns collected during the search of the Kinney home.


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[Assistant] When defense attorney James Quinn asked which guns were collected.


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[Assistant] Nesbit explained that they had confiscated a .22 rifle, an automatic pistol that had belonged to Sharon's father.


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[Assistant] And a, quote, blank pistol, excuse me, blank pistol which won't shoot.


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[Assistant] However, Nesbitt testified none of the guns were a match for those used in the murder of Patricia Jones. And remember...


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[Assistant] Somebody that Sharon had worked with had come forward and said, like, she made me buy her this gun. Yep. And she said she left it with family in Washington. But it sounds like they were never able to locate that gun.


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[Assistant] Now the conflicting autopsy reports, like I said, made things even worse for the prosecution. During his examination of the original coroner,


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[Assistant] Dr. Hugh Owens, the prosecutor, could barely hide his contempt for this guy.


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[Assistant] During questioning, Owens was described as having, quote, smiled frostily, evidently recalling that the handling of the body at the time resulted in a dispute between his office and law enforcement authorities who charged that an inadequate post-mortem examination had limited the collection of vital evidence. Which also, that answers our question. He's a doctor. So he is legit. It sounds like he is legit.


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[Assistant] The results of the conflicting reports meant that the prosecution now couldn't be precise about a lot of the important details.


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[Assistant] The time of death, the presence of any chemicals or any drugs in Patricia's system.


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[Assistant] So while the conflicting medical reports were undoubtedly the biggest hurdle for the prosecution to clear, their additional witnesses didn't do much to help.


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[Assistant] The day after Hill's frustrating examination of Dr. Owens, Walter Jones took the stand and told the jury about his relationship with Sharon Kinney, his attempt to end their relationship.


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[Assistant] And the enraged threats that he made to her when he found out that she'd been seen with Patricia right before she disappeared.


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[Assistant] But what was more problematic was that he described Sharon as being very willing to allow him to search her and her belongings for weapons.


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[Assistant] And he told the jury that she offered to aid in the search for Patricia.


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[Assistant] Like who does that when they've actually killed the person? Now that same day.


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[Assistant] But the investigators had actually managed to track down the previous owner.


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[Assistant] Who led them to a location that he used for targetprastic practice.


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[Assistant] And ballistics technicians were able to pull several slugs from a tree.


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[Assistant] So while they couldn't locate that particular gun, they located the man who had owned it and they got his slugs from that gun. Which like, that was pretty good police work. I was gonna say that was good police work. But unfortunately,


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[Assistant] For the prosecution, the slug admitted into the evidence was a match for the caliber of the gun.


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[Assistant] But could not be confirmed as the same model used in Patricia's death.


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[Assistant] Now given the amount of circumstantial evidence versus the lack of forensic evidence in the prosecution's case, the defense really didn't have to work that hard on Sharon's behalf.


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[Assistant] They said it was true that she'd been seen with Patricia just before her death.


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[Assistant] And actually, she'd been overheard at one point by law enforcement officials boasting that quote, as long as we didn't have the gun, we couldn't prove it was her. Wow.


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[Assistant] But they said none of that conclusively linked her to Patricia's murder.


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[Assistant] In fact, their case was even more simple than the state's. They said, Sharon might be guilty of having an extramarital affair. That doesn't make her a killer.


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[Assistant] Shit. They went like pretty simple. Yeah, they went really simplistic with it. So rather than even try to prove her innocent,


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[Assistant] Now among those called to testify by the defense was Donald Fitzpatrick, a man who claimed he was at the Lover's Lane area with his quote, married woman companion.


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[Assistant] When they were at the scene a short time before Patricia's body was discovered.


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[Assistant] Because how did she get there? If she was killed there, he would have seen her, they're saying.


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[Assistant] This is getting a little wily. It is. Wily? This, this is brought to you by the word wily. Wily. Yes. Very true.


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[Assistant] So, the defense took less than two days to present their case, and on June 23, 1961, the jury went into deliberation.


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[Assistant] After just an hour and a half, they returned with a verdict of not guilty. Whaaat? And they cited the prosecution's heavy reliance on conjecture as the reason for the verdict. So basically they're saying like,


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[Assistant] You're just saying that because she had an affair with this woman's husband that you're like jumping to conclusions here. And it's just reasonable doubt. Exactly. Like you're just putting reasonable doubt in there. Exactly. Now when asked for a comment, Sharon simply smiled and told reporters, I feel as good as I can. Yeah, I bet you do. So her lead defense attorney, James Quinn, this is so stupid.


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[Assistant] On the other hand, he had more to say on the matter. He told the press, actually.


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[Assistant] You cannot speculate. You cannot base your judgment on speculation. Conjecture.


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[Assistant] With the first trial behind them, the prosecution and the defense started preparing for the second one, scheduled to begin January 8th, 1962.


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[Assistant] Coincidentally, it was actually to take place before the same judge, Judge Tom Stubbs, who presided over that first trial, which also makes you nervous because she just got acquitted. Yea, exactly. Now, defense attorney Quinn,


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[Assistant] The case against Sharon in the death of James seemed even weaker than the prosecution's case against her and Patricia Jones' death.


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[Assistant] And on top of that, they were barred from admitting any new evidence.


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[Assistant] Jesus. And with the initial determination of accidental death, that would be pretty hard for the prosecution to get around.


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[Assistant] So after one day of jury selection, opening statements began January 9th, and again, Jay Arnett Hill laid out the state's case. According to him,


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[Assistant] Just weeks before her husband's death both Sharon and James had confided to others that their marriage had essentially come to an end and they had both expressed interest in getting a divorce. The problem though


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[Assistant] She was not going to get out of her marriage as easily as she hoped, and she wasn't going to come out of it with as big a payout as she had hoped. She quote,


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[Assistant] Called a man named Donald Boone, telling him she had something dirty for him to do. What? And offered him a thousand dollars to kill her husband.


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[Assistant] So, Hill ends up calling John Boldiz to the stand intending to have him confirm a previous statement that he had given to investigators about Sharon having offered him a thousand dollars to kill her husband. Shut the fuck up.


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[Assistant] But in his deposition, John Boldee's there, given before the trial.


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[Assistant] He told the prosecutor about how Sharon had offered him the money to kill James and implied that they could be together with James out of the way.


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[Assistant] He said all of that in his deposition. But on the stand, Boldiz insisted Sharon wasn't serious and the offer was quote unquote, in a joking fashion.


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[Assistant] Had a fully fleshed out joke. JK. About murdering anyone that I love. LOL. It is just not real. All I can picture in my head is Theresa going. This man. Funny. Laugh. Ha ha. Like this is just.


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[Assistant] He also insisted that there was a quote unquote typo in his deposition testimony.


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[Assistant] I got my husband taken care of and I thought we could be together. He said, it should have read business, not husband. I got my business taken care of. That's quite a fucking typo.


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[Assistant] A typo would be if they spelled husband wrong, if they were like hub sand. Exactly, that's a typo. Husband in business, not so much.


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[Assistant] Well no, he's- Oh no, oh, it's your defense attorney, I thought you said that. I see why you thought that. He's seized on the inconsistency in Boldiz's story. In his cross examination, he asked,


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[Assistant] But despite what Boldiz had previously told the prosecutor, the implication of defense attorney Quinn's question was that, you know, any rational person would consider such a discussion to be a joke and Sharon obviously wasn't serious. About


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[Assistant] And then, with no more evidence than in the initial investigation, the charges changed to murder? But...


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[Assistant] Outside of the courthouse, a confident James Quinn told reporters, And he was right. The state really didn't have the strongest case in the world.


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[Assistant] What the fuck is going on? Where am I? So the press noted that the outcome of the case, quote, hinged on the testimony of John Boldiz.


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[Assistant] Her lawyers and supporters petitioned the court to have her released on bail.


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[Assistant] But the petitions were repeatedly denied, but the ongoing coverage of the now completed trial did help win Sharon's sympathy from the support in the public. And while the support was not enough to overturn the verdict... Who's the public?


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[Assistant] But when the case finally reached the state supreme court in early 1963,


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[Assistant] Even though she'd been freed on a technicality the growing wave of support for her freedom was a strong indicator of what was to come.


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[Assistant] And of course, uh, over the course, sorry, not of course, over the course.


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[Assistant] The prosecutor's office would retry Sharon two more times, both resulting in a mistrial.


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[Assistant] So despite the jury leaning toward acquittal in the third trial,


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[Assistant] The prosecutor's intent to try Sharon for a fourth time for the murder of James Kinney was untenable.


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[Assistant] Eviden- er, uh, allegedly. So she went down to the employment office to apply for benefits. Now. This is insane.


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[Assistant] It was at the employment office in August of 1964 that Sharon first laid eyes on Frank Puglisi.


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[Assistant] Who was ahead of her in line, struggling to understand the paperwork he was being asked to fill out.


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[Assistant] And, you know, had been drifting around the Midwest for years, taking random jobs where he could find them.


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[Assistant] And the two of them hit it off and started dating. This gal, what a meat cute. What a meat cute. She is quitting her job and applying for benefits.


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[Assistant] You know, awaiting her murder trial, and she meets a man who just got out of jail.


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[Assistant] This is wild. She's also, I'm pretty sure like 28 or 29 at this point. Like she's- I'm like-


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[Assistant] Your 20s were such a ride, Sharon. Your 20s, yeah. This is just outrageous. So after the stress of all of her legal woes, Sharon welcomed the male attention and affection, and she and Frank dated through the rest of the summer and into the fall.


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[Assistant] And just like her other relationship, Sharon and Frank fell for each other very fast.


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[Assistant] And by September, she convinced him to sign what she considered an informal marriage contract.


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[Assistant] Wow. Like, they didn't legally get married, but she was like, sign this, it says we're married.


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[Assistant] But the problem, however, was that her new trial was set to begin in early October. And despite her uncanny ability to dodge any and all responsibility, there was still a chance that she was going back to prison for the murder of her fucking husband. Which I'm also like, Frank, you're really jumping onto this ship? Apparently.


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[Assistant] This is, you're gonna shit. Oh no. About two weeks into September, she went to her lawyer's office and explained that she and Frank were in love and they wanted to take a vacation to Mexico before their trial, before her trial began. Shut the fuck up. Now given that she was still out of jail on a $25,000 bond pending the outcome of the trial,


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[Assistant] There was some question as to whether she could travel or not. There was some question? There was lots of questions. There was inquiries into whether she should leave for Mexico?


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[Assistant] On the afternoon of September 12th, 1964, Sharon made multiple trips to the local Safeway grocery store. As one does. Each time writing bad checks to get cash for her trip.


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[Assistant] And she and Frank took off for Mexico. So she just dropped her kids. It was like bye. She, she abandoned her children. Yeah.


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[Assistant] So they drove almost nonstop for two days until they reached Laredo, Texas, the last stop before crossing into Mexico. But unfortunately for them, without the proper paperwork or registration proving ownership of this vehicle, the border agents refused to let them go through Mexico or go through to Mexico in the car.


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[Assistant] And they were like, that's fine. They ditched it at the border and took the bus into Mexico City.


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[Assistant] Now, although they made it pretty easily to their destination, neither of them spoke Spanish.


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[Assistant] Why the fuck are you gonna plan a trip to Mexico if you don't speak Spanish, like any Spanish whatsoever?


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[Assistant] So that made communication a pretty big problem. Did it? Yea. Now on September 14th, they checked into the Hotel Gin, which the couple chose simply for its quote-unquote, quaint name.


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[Assistant] I'm like, you chose that hotel because you thought they had gin. Yeah, that, that checks. But when they arrived, they found that the hotel was anything but quaint.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] There were roaches climbing up the walls of the bathroom, and rats and mice running from one room to another before disappearing through the holes that were in the walls.


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[Assistant] Uh, it was also in a neighborhood that Sharon had deemed unsafe, so she kept a pistol and a hatchet by her bed at all times. Uh oh. I have to say, Frank, baby.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Do you know? Do you, like, have you read the local paper when you were back in independence? Oh no. You're sleeping next to a woman who is supposed to head to trial soon for the murder of her husband, and you go to sleep next to her at night when next to her is a hatchet and a pistol?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Oh no. The wild thing? It's not Frank. It's not Frank? It's not Frank. Wow, I thought it was gonna be Frank. No.


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[Assistant] So after a few days enjoying the local nightlife, Frank and Sharon were running very low on money and they were both really sick from an excess on local food and alcohol. Probably more alcohol than food. So on Friday, September 18th,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Sharon left the hotel gin to go in search of an English speaking pharmacist who could give them something for their stomachs, and she brought her pistol with her for protection. Now, after struggling to find anyone who could accommodate her,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] A local man directed her to the Del Prado Hotel.


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[Assistant] A hotel that catered to American tourists, where she could definitely find somebody who spoke English and Spanish.


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[Assistant] Now the first person that she encountered at the hotel was Francisco.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Paredes, uhm, or Doniz, a Mexican-born resident of California who is in Mexico to visit his family.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So she welcomed the opportunity for some male attention.


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[Assistant] And with the pistol tucked in her pocket, she did not hesitate when Francisco, uh, suggested that they go back to his room for a few drinks. He thought she was pretty.


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[Assistant] Now, what happened next is a matter of debate, and if you're putting any money on Sharon, I don't know what I can do for you. Yeah. But according to Sharon, after two or three drinks with, uh, Francisco, she got tired and laid down on the bed to go to sleep for a while, take a little nap.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] She claimed that she was woken around 3am when he tried to quote sexually, uh, uh, attack her sexually.


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[Assistant] And she said, believing herself to be in danger, she drew the pistol from her pocket and fired twice into his chest, killing him instantly.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now, the noise drew the attention of the hotel's night manager, Enrique Rueda, who ran to the room to find out what the fuck was going on.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now, coming upon the scene of an unknown woman having shot one of the hotel guests, he attempted to detain Sharon while he contacted police.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And that's when she raised the gun and shot him in the back, leaving him in critical condition. Yeah.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But despite his gunshot wound and eventual critical condition, he managed to lock her in the bathroom while he contacted the police. This man is a hero. And the police arrived a short time later.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Having left one of the men at the hotel alive, there was no question of Sharon's involvement in the shooting, but there was some question as to who the fuck she was. When they arrived in Mexico, Sharon and Frank


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Checked into the hotel that they were at as Mr. and Mrs. Frank Puglisi, but her identification said otherwise.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And when they did confirm her identity, officials learned that she was due in court just a few weeks later to stand trial for the murder of her husband.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] A date that now she would not be making.


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[Assistant] Even though she maintained that she'd only shot Francisco in self defense, Sharon also made several unexpected comments to the authorities at the embassy, including telling one man, I've shot men before and managed to get out of it.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] What the fuck? I don't think she gave a fuck at this point. She's just like, I just shoot men on


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[Assistant] Now while officers from the Mexican Secret Service investigated the shooting,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Sharon was taken to a La Cumbria prison in Mexico City where she was to be held until the trial.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now, unlike the trials in the United States, she had no support in Mexico.


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[Assistant] And her only connection was with her embassy appointed lawyer, Jihino Lara, uh, Jihino Lara.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] On September 26, 1964, both Sharon and Frank Puglisi were arraigned on murder charges.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I don't know if it was because, like, some kind of, like, they thought maybe, like, a conspiracy, exactly. Uh, later.


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[Assistant] Having learned of her arrest and imprisonment.


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[Assistant] The Mexican press dubbed her La Pistolera. Ah, that's where it comes from. Which translates in, uh, to the holster in English. Ah, okay. Which I thought it would translate to the pistol. But it's like the pistol holder. Exactly, holster, yea, exactly, the holder.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Having learned of the shooting and arrests, authorities in Independence, Missouri contacted Mexico Secret Service to request


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That the pistol used in the shooting be sent to the US for tests.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So Sharon finally went on trial in a Mexican court in the fall of 1965, where she pleaded not guilty to a myriad of charges. Homicide, causing bodily injuries, illegal use of firearms, and possession of false documents. Damn. In her defense, Hejini O'Laura,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Laura told the three-judge panel that Sharon had fallen asleep in the bed.


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[Assistant] And was awoken when Francisco climbed on top of her in what she believed was an attempted sexual assault.


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[Assistant] But the panel of judges felt like the evidence didn't support that claim.


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[Assistant] And she was found guilty of simple homicide and sentenced to 10 years.


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[Assistant] Uhm, at the, and she was sentenced at the newly constructed women's prison in, I hope I say this right, Iztapala, Iztapalapa, which is just outside of Mexico City.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now after she served the sentence, she would be deported back to the United States. So news of Sharon's imprisonment of course spread around the Midwest and the Southwest, which prompted tons of news agencies to send reporters to Mexico to interview her.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And each time she maintained her innocence and stuck to her story, assuming that she would soon be free on appeal and back in the US.


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[Assistant] It's unclear if she knew this or not, but her sentence carried the provision that she had to serve two thirds of it.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Sharon spent most of the time talking about how much she hated the food at the prison. How the quote, language barrier frightened her.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] There was a ton of interest in the case just after the conviction, but the press coverage slowly faded as the months passed. And by the winter of 1966, her name was hardly appearing in the US papers.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] By that point she'd settled into life at the prison and told the reporter, Kevin Kelligan, that she stopped planning for the future.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Such a Kevin thing to say. It truly is. Now despite what she told old Kevin there, it turned out that she hadn't exactly given up on her future entirely. Something told me that.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] After serving five of the ten year, five years of the ten year sentence.


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[Assistant] Later that evening when guards made their rounds to do bed checks, they discovered Sharon was missing. Fuck you. No. They discovered that she was missing.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Officials searched the prison and its grounds all evening, but turned up no signs of Sharon Kinney, and eventually were forced to make a public statement to alert the press and citizens that she had escaped. She had escaped prison in Mexico City.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And Mexico City police and prison officials had absolutely no fucking clue how she managed to escape from high security modern prison saying quote, er, saying only that-


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Newly constructed and like a high security prison. Yeaah. They said she quote, probably bribed several jail wardens to let her go. Honestly. I believe it. Probably.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] An intensive multi-agency search was mounted for her covering a wide radius around the prison.


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[Assistant] But after weeks of turning up legit zero evidence, authorities announced in mid-December that they would be easing up the hunt like it was costing too much money.


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[Assistant] Today, more than 50 years after her escape from prison,


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[Assistant] Sharon remains a fugitive in Mexico and the United States.


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[Assistant] And the authorities are not any closer to finding her than when she did escape.


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[Assistant] What. The. Fuck. Now with each passing year, it becomes more and more unlikely that she's still alive. She's like 83 at this point, right? She'd be 83 this year.


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[Assistant] But if she were apprehended today, she would still face charges in Mexico for the escape.


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[Assistant] And she would face charges in the United States for the murder of James Kinney. But she has never been found.


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[Assistant] And then she just escapes. And she killed at least three people. I'm sorry. Sharon killed more than three people. I know she did. Oh yeah. But she killed at least three.


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[Assistant] What's up with that? He went off a cliff? No. I don't know about that.


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[Assistant] There are not words for this woman's wiliness. I had no idea!


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[Assistant] Neither did I. I had no idea. Neither did I. I was just Googling like, I forget even what I typed in to find this case, but I started reading about it and I was like, Dave, I got a case that we have to look into.


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[Assistant] An appalled. Shocked, appalled. The fact that she's just roving around somewhere, like what? Like if she's alive, she's an 83 year old lady. She could be your grandma. She could be your grandma, guys. You're listening right there. She could be your grandma! I do hope that her kids- She could be your grandma's friend. She could be.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] She could be just your grandma, that's crazy. That's right, she could be your straight up grandma. But I hope that her kids are okay.


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[Assistant] Sounds like they're all right. I mean, she left them with James Kinney's parents, it sounds like. So hopefully James Kinney's parents just took care of them. Yeaah.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And I hope Dana knows that she didn't shoot her dad. Yeah, that's the other thing. She didn't shoot her dad. No fucking way. Sharon did it. And it's gross that Sharon even...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Slightly implied. Gross isn't even the word. It's like, there are not words for the fact that she implied that. It's so gross. Ugh. What a fuckin' wild tale. Wow. That's real. Yeah.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] From zombies as well. I think we got a Willa, the werewolf, we got Eliza the zombie. But them. And then my littlest, my littlest one.


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[Assistant] We all know this is on a whole different planet on her own. She's not on her. She is half Willa the werewolf. Yup. Half.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Split down the middle and the other half is Remy Ash's cat. And she could not wait to show Remy my cat. Yes, very excited to show Remy the cat that she was half her.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, it turned out really well. So we were a zombies family and also half a Remy the cat. Yeah, of course.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, see, I wanted to be something scary, but, you know, not this year. There's always next year. They're getting more into it.


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[Assistant] They are, so you know, whatever they request, and like we were saying, there's only so many years that your kids are in this like, goofy, excited, like, into everything, go all out stage, especially for Halloween costumes, and it's like,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] If they ask me to be something, I'm gonna be it. Until they don't ask me to be something anymore, you know? Like, it's just like, I'm gonna at least hold on to this for as long as I can. Yeah, you gotta. But, it'll be a sad day when they're like, Mom, we're going out with our friends for Halloween. And I'm gonna say, nooo. But then you can come trick or treating with friends.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, only infrequently, but it happens. Of course it does. I mean, I believe you too. Infrequently during the day.


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[Assistant] What a way, what a like small subtle way to change it into like a stage.


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[Assistant] A person who is alive. Correct. Emotional and lively. It's like, that's, that's just a- That's a pulse. That's a carbon based person, I think. Like that's really just like-


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] She had the stage fever. She had the stage fever and she liked to drink.


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[Assistant] I love that that's just a reason for divorce. She got that stage fever.


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[Assistant] Nothing is better than catching someone in the act.


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[Assistant] Cause it's just confirmation. Yeah, and it's one of those things cause during that whole, when that stuff is happening, you're convincing yourself that you're...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Like losing it and that it's you being overly paranoid and they convince you that you're being overly paranoid, so red handed. Oh yeaah.


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[Assistant] Wow. But also I'm like, just go, Katya. All done. Good luck together, guys. I'm moving on. Like it's, I know it's not as easy as that, trust me. But it's like, you just want to see them be like, fuck you guys. I know.


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[Assistant] Here's some cash, bye. Like how shitty is that? That's really like...


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[Assistant] I'm gonna travel a lot to stop my infatuation with this other woman.


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[Assistant] Honestly, it's an asshole move. It is. People can die and still be assholes when they lived, like that is just the real- Yea, like maybe he wasn't an asshole all the time, but this is an asshole move.


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[Assistant] Is it? I think it might be. Can you Google that quickly? I think it's like White Star Line. I think you might be right. Yea, operated by White Star Line.


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[Assistant] Wow. The Titanic. That's on another level. That's really wild. And what year was this?


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[Assistant] This is so intense. It's so intense. This is so intense. I will travel. It's interesting.


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[Assistant] Method of going about this. I will travel until I forget you. Yeaah. Being other places.


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[Assistant] This doesn't seem like it's going to work.


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[Assistant] Like I think it's like in Gilmore Girls when Max Medina says that he can't be near Lorelai and he says keep a big basketball player size person in between us.


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[Assistant] That's the thing, hot girl shit when everyone's single and everyone's happy. Right. And fine. But now you know. It's messy as fuck now, you know he's literally going out with his...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] With his wife on an ocean liner to go travel together to repair their relationship and you are agreeing to meet him? Like you're both messy. That's fucked up.


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[Assistant] I mean it also makes sense he could, like if he's a righty, that would be where it would go anyways. Exactly.


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[Assistant] Yeaah. So, did she have a reason?


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[Assistant] Or she was just like, yeah, I just picked it up and put it back in. She said, I took the pistol out of his pocket and put it back in again. So she watched somebody kill themselves. Mhm.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And then she said, I should probably touch that weapon.


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[Assistant] And then put it back where I found it. Yup. Okay. Yup.


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[Assistant] I mean I've never been in that position, so I'm not gonna say it's a total impossibility. I don't know.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Oh, okay, so there wasn't even like, proof that this had even happened.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Oh, we're getting a little messier here. We're getting a little loosey goosey with these. We're getting real messy. Like she didn't write them, but she convinced someone to.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So they're just being like, I heard that this letter was written by this lady and that it said this. And it's like, can you show me it? And they're like, no, but I did hear it. Because that's the thing.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Well and it's also like, if she really was just in this cab with this man and he gave her a hug and shot himself in the lung, that's horrible.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] While hugging her? And she just witnessed this and now is being put in the tomb jail cell? Can you imagine how fucked up this is? No, and then she, like, if she did


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I always think of that when it's like an unknown, you don't know if they did it or if it was some other way. It's like imagine if they didn't.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] No, and honestly that's why my, that's where my stance on the death penalty started to shift. Really? During this, during the creation of this entire podcast, this whole show.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It was like people started talking to me more about it, and the more I thought about it, the more I was like, wow.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Imagine, imagine if you get it wrong. Like, humans are fallible. And it's happened. People have sat in prison for like 30, 40, 50 years. And it's like, you look at that. And then new evidence comes out. And it's like, oof, it gets done, it's like something you can't undo.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, and that's why, that's why these kind of crimes, like, in this era.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Always fascinate me too. Same. It's because with the, with you know, the advancements in technology and the forensic science and all that good stuff is very fascinating and I love that stuff. Absolutely.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, they just like, every once in a while they throw a really old timey one in there. It's just, it's really interesting to see the dichotomy of how they solve these things. It is, it really is.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Especially because it's like, you don't have anything. Even if you really like, like, this seems like a very one-off.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, crime of passion case of that, which is not okay obviously, but it's like when we're talking about like holding bail and all that.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That does factor into it, like whether this is like your...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, and it's like, so even with that like not being the case, they're still doing that?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Oh damn. This is getting interesting. It is.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I was gonna say, I feel like it just would've been, why not?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It's like, did it fall? Cause I was more confused when they were talking about how I think Nan said.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] See, that's less believable to me. That's what I thought too. It's more believable to me that he would just take, he would quickly put it in his pocket before succumbing. Yeah. Hmm. It's interesting.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, see, so it all just kinda like when you look at this eyewitness. Yeah, these two eyewitnesses. Yeah, and then, and then it's like,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And then she, and then her fingerprints were on the gun and she said she touched it by bringing it out of his pocket and putting it back in, so it's like...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Did she fuck up and did the gun not fall in his pocket but she put it in his pocket?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Possibly. Maybe she picked it up out of his hand and then like put it in his pocket like holy shit.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Just to like pick it up like holy shit what happened here and then like oop. Well there you have it.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That could have been it and maybe Nan was mistaken or didn't want.


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[Assistant] To just say. But maybe she was just mistaken. She could have been so- Well, because remember they- In shock.


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[Assistant] Yeaah, cause like when you really, that's the thing that I'm hung up on is like...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He's saying he was hugging her and reached around her to shoot him, so I'm like, that's...


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[Assistant] Yeah, but it just seems like a very awkward. It does. Thing. It absolutely does.


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[Assistant] And I'm like, and I'm also kind of shocked that, well, I guess back then they wore a lot of layers, women.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Cause I was gonna say I'm a little shocked that she doesn't have any kind of mark from the gun.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Because it was probably like against her a little bit. Yeaah. When he did it, you know?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Well I don't know, because I'm trying to reach my arms, I mean I have short arms, maybe that's what this is about. He must have long arms. Because they said- I couldn't get that.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Or when the front in his shoulder. I think is what they're more.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That would be, I'm curious to like, think of like,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Did they do any like real life demonstration of like two humans hugging? Yeah. To try to make sure that that's even. I didn't find anything to say that they did do that. Cause that's just like, I'm even like looking at like a pillow and being like, I couldn't reach around. But again, I'm a five foot one.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Woman. And it's like, so maybe he had a whole different stature.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, it's very interesting. Yeah. The whole thing is very...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] This is interesting, I know, cause it's just like, I have so many questions, but like, none of which I can answer or even...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But it didn't happen. Doesn't make sense. No, and it did not happen. It's also like back then weren't they all juries of gray haired old men? Pretty much. Wasn't that pretty much like the standard? At that point it was not a jury of your peers. No, that's the thing. So I'm like, I think she probably knew that there was a certain...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Those are some giant labels.


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[Assistant] That would even not really work with even if it was like a friend of hers, you know, like yea, you can see your friends the night before something happens and that doesn't mean that that person's involved. But it's her sister. Yea.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Who it sounds like she's pretty close with. She lived with her, at this point she was living with her. So it's like, she saw the person that is closest to her that she lives with the night before, so they must be in, it's like, I don't know about that. Exactly.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I'm not gonna lodge that allegation at him, but I'm just saying like, this- It's just a question. There's a gun. Yeah.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It's either there was gonna be a murder-suicide situation. Uh.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That he did it to himself via that hug, or she did it to him. Yeah. Cause I truly, I don't think it would have just been that he would shoot her.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And then move on with his life. I think if that was the case that it was supposed to be, then it would be a murder-suicide situation.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I don't know, there's like, this is just such a confusing...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] A tiny space, two people, and a gun. That's the thing, because nobody-


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Like this is a very confusing situation. And a very confusing spot to be shot in. Yea. Too. Cause it's not like...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You know, I mean, it's graphic, but it's not like it's in the head or...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The mouth or something like that that you would expect. Yea, to be below the shoulder. Cause that's not even a real surefire thing. No.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Here's the thing. This is in the 1800s. Was she wearing gloves?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] She's a fancy gal. That's true. Fancy gals wore gloves back then. Little, little delicate gloves.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Unless this is like a dirty situation and they made sure those gloves were nowhere to be found. Which it could be, absolutely. And it's like, then the prosecution can't say she was wearing gloves if they don't have gloves to say that she was. That's true.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But that gun went off, she still, like, it wasn't like the police literally...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Emerged onto this, like converged onto the place the second the gun went off, like she could have stashed it.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I mean like, I just tried, there's no real way to, you can explain that maybe she could've, like you can explain why she doesn't have.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Absolutely, there's all the motive in the world. I think that's where it gets shady and hairy, is like, you can sit there and go, but you know what, I'm like, I can see why, like this motive is here. But then you look at the very few facts. That's the other thing. There's so little evidence here of anything.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And maybe he was knowing that, you know.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He has fucked over his wife so many times, she's going to be, it's gonna be a tough road back to redemption for him.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That was, yeah, I'm very interested to see. My...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] My feeling is that he shot that gun. Yeah. But I can't tell you anything further than that. I don't know. I don't know how, I don't know. Cause that's the thing, I, I'm


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeaah. Yeaah. You had like a stoner vibe about that, the way you said, more bad. I'm in a different universe right now. Tell the people. Let it out. Put it all in the book, sweetie.


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[Assistant] This all goes in order actually because the last time we talked to you guys was yesterday when, uhm, my ceiling flooded.


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[Assistant] Oh yeaah. And all the alarms in my house went off because it flooded into the smoke detector and other parts. So it set the detectors off.


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[Assistant] So that was yesterday, that was wild. And then in the middle of the night last night, because all the water had flooded into one of those smoke detectors at, uh,


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[Assistant] Like cute, it's cute now. At the time I was like, this is chaos.


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[Assistant] So we finally get everybody kind of settled, and then within ten minutes it blares again. And it does that another four times, back to back, within ten minutes each, or like five minutes sometimes, till finally he was able to like clean it out, disconnect that one.


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[Assistant] A mess. So it was chaos. Like the youngest one didn't want to go to sleep, so John was trying to sleep like on the end of her bed to calm her down. And that's too tiny for John. One of my twins was like, is everything cool? And I was like, yeah. And she was like, see ya. And just went to sleep. The other one was like, can I come in bed with you? And I was like, sure. And so it, it was.


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[Assistant] Chaos. The dogs had no fucking clue what was going on, so they're just like, what have you done? I know, and think of how loud that was to them. How loud it was, and they were like, what is going on? It's loud to us, but it's like so high pitched in their poor little ears. And they're also in full...


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[Assistant] I don't think that's like your whole life story. Also, one of my twins lost a tooth at school yesterday, so the tooth fairy came.


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[Assistant] So that was added onto it. Luckily the Tooth Fairy did come and it was great because the Tooth Fairy never misses, you know? Damn, she really does be working OT. She does. So good job, Tooth Fairy. Shout out to the Tooth Fairy. Shout out to the Tooth Fairy. The Tooth Fairy now has to answer the children's letters that they write her when they lose teeth. Yes, now that they can write. And they're like, what's your favorite food on Thanksgiving?


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[Assistant] But yea, that's where I'm at today, so I'm really glad that's how she was telling you the story, because I don't know what kind of rocket ship I would take us all on today, so. I watched some Gabagool last night.


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[Assistant] And then I watched some southern charm and then I fell asleep at a normal hour. I'm sorry, but I slept like a fucking baby. Well, okay, the night before though, I was up all night because of my freaking cats jiggling the door all night. Like, let me in, let me in. I'm like, I'm not letting you in here because you're going to go crazy and you're going to shove everything off my nightstand at all hours of the night. So no.


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[Assistant] I'm not doing it. No. And then last night they were on their best behavior. Good for those cats. My cats. My cats. My cats. Well, I wish that I had like a uplifting story for you, a story of justice or you know, like something spooky to make you lull. But I don't.


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[Assistant] Oh, I have a pretty tragic case. Uhm, the woman at the center of this case is a cool lady though.


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[Assistant] And it's a bit of an oldie, it's uhm, it's like 20 slash 30s, but it's really, really interesting. And I hope you like it. So this one's for you.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So, yeah, this one's for you, Elena. Despite the extensive coverage of her murder and the trial that followed, there's not a ton of information out there about Mamie Thurman's life, and that's who we're going to be talking about today. Mamie Thurman.


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[Assistant] Ah, but what we do know is that she was born Mamie Morrison on September 12th, 1900 to George and Ollie Morrison of Kentucky. And also the name Ollie is so cute. That is really cute. And usually you hear it for a boy, but I think for a woman or a girl it's so pretty.


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[Assistant] But unfortunately, in late January of 1901, when Mamie was just four months old, Ollie ended up passing away, leaving Mamie in the sole care of her father.


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[Assistant] With a bubbly and outgoing personality, she knew few strangers, like, just wanted to be friends with everybody, would talk to whoever. Yeah. And as she got older, she carried that confidence and friendly nature into adulthood.


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[Assistant] She enthusiastically embraced the fashion of the early 20th century.


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[Assistant] She dressed in like tight fitting clothes. She loved a little low neckline to show the girls off. Get it girl. She accessorized with like really beautiful eye catching jewelry.


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[Assistant] And while most adults at the time discouraged such quote-unquote provocative attire, Mamie loved colorful, glamorous clothing. She loved outrageous hats, head wraps, the turbans they would wear.


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[Assistant] She was a fashion gwarly. It wasn't just the fashion that made me love. It was all the latest cultural trends. Uh, being what her half-brother George Jr. described as a flapper. Which is like my fave.


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[Assistant] And she really rejected the conservative modesty of the previous generation. She was like going out there on her own.


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[Assistant] Let's go. And honestly, which is another thing I really love about her, she kinda just leaned into the shocked responses that she would get from people. Cause remember, she's from a small town in Kentucky, so people didn't necessarily appreciate her bold outfits or, you know, gorgeously applied mug. But you know what, what other people think of you is none of your business. RuPaul.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But more than anything, Mamie loved the budding jazz styles emerging in places like New York, Chicago, New Orleans,


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[Assistant] Basically, she was just a cool chick way ahead of her time. Sounds like it. I love her. Now in 1924, she met and married Jack Thurman. He was a construction worker from Brad's, Brad'sford, I can say it.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But pretty shortly after they got married, Mamie and Jack moved from Kentucky to Logan, West Virginia a little over four hours away. Now Logan was really just as rural as Bradfordsville.


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[Assistant] But it had more opportunities, and Jack was able to find construction work pretty quickly, actually mostly thanks to Mamie's father.


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[Assistant] Her dad had also worked in construction, and he worked a lot in that area, so he put in a good word for his new son-in-law.


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[Assistant] And then meanwhile, Mamie started taking secretarial classes at the local high school.


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[Assistant] And when she had wrapped up her coursework, she was able to get a really good job as a secretary at a local car dealership.


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[Assistant] Moving from Kentucky to West Virginia, it did put a lot of distance. Like I just said, it was a four hour move. So put a lot of distance between Mamie and her family.


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[Assistant] But she made a point to go back as often as she could to visit her dad.


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[Assistant] By then, he had actually gotten remarried and started a family with his second wife, but he and Mamie stayed close, and she was close to his whole family there.


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[Assistant] She was a lot older than his youngest kids, but they also were super close, like I just said.


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[Assistant] And despite the years between them, George completely adored Mamie. He told a reporter, I thought Mamie was the most beautiful woman in the world.


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[Assistant] And it wasn't just her younger brother and her dad that Mimi was close to. She also was really, really close to her stepmom because they had a ton in common.


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[Assistant] Now when George Sr. unexpectedly died in 1928, Mamie actually helped her stepmom move into a one room quote unquote


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[Assistant] You know, occasionally in the company of other men. Maybe, maybe had a little fun on the side. Yeah, apparently. Yep. And you know.


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[Assistant] Her stepmom could because her dad had passed away. Yeah, she's a widow now. Exactly.


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[Assistant] But a few years after moving to West Virginia, Jack ended up joining Jack as Manny's husband.


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[Assistant] He ended up joining the local police force and Mamie was able to get a better job


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[Assistant] Working as a secretary at one of the largest banks in town.


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[Assistant] And that was where she became acquainted with some of the most influential men in Logan. And then sometimes she'd get more than acquainted.


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[Assistant] I mean, let's go. What a legend to leave. What a legend. That's the thing. A legacy is what I meant, but legend works too. What did you say? I said a legend to leave. I meant a legacy. Oh, oh.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, but you know, it all, it's in the same word, family, so it's fine. Yeaah.


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[Assistant] It kinda means that you're like leading a wild and fast life. Yes, exactly. But- So I think it's like if you're fine with that, then you're like, hell yeah, I'm a high stepper. And I kinda think Mamie was, cause like I said, she leaned into this whole thing. I think she would've been like, yeah, that's me. But some people would be like, oh shit. Like I'm getting a-


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[Assistant] Reputation for being a high stepper. Exactly, but he also said a fine looking lady. I mean, hell yea. I'd be focused on that personally.


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[Assistant] But the thing was, while most people really publicly knew Mamie as a respectable, quote unquote, woman of quiet demeanor,


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[Assistant] And talked a little bit more about her. And rumors were starting to spread.


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[Assistant] She may have been all of those things, all of those great things, but people also said that she was promiscuous and she often went out alone and she danced with men at speakeasies. And you know, she had a tendency to drink too much at a time when literally all forms of liquor were still illegal.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Almost in like the 20s underworlds, kinda. Exactly, like the 20s underworlds, yeaah. Yeaah, like it feels like in Moulin Rouge how like that whole world was like, this like wild underworld of


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[Assistant] Somewhat dangerous to dabble in those things back then. And especially not only just like for your safety but for your reputation. And remember, her husband...


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[Assistant] And it actually, you know, it wasn't that she and Jack were poor, they weren't struggling to get by by any means, but Mamie had an appreciation for those finer things in life.


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[Assistant] Alright, so you know she's trying to rub shoulders with the right people to make a better life. She's networking. Exactly!


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[Assistant] But, rumors and moral judgment aside, it is true that even though she was married, she did see other men.


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[Assistant] It's unknown exactly how many extramarital relationships Mamie had, but most sources cite that her relationship with Harry Robertson was the most long running and most significant relationship that she had.


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[Assistant] Aside from her husband Jack. So Harry was the son of Logan County's former sheriff and he was really well known in the community because he worked at the, I think it's Gion Valley Bank?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And that was the bank that Mimi worked at, but it was one of the other biggest banks in town. Okay. Cause I was like, it was one of the biggest banks in town before. This was the other one. There's so many big banks. There's so many big banks.


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[Assistant] And most people considered Harry to be a decent family man. He married his wife Louise in 1914 in nearby Huntington, and after they got married they moved and settled in Logan.


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[Assistant] Harry went to work at the bank and ten years later they'd had two children. They were living in a large three bedroom house near the center of town. They had a beautiful life. Get it guys. And to offset the cost of, you know, living, they rented out part of their property to Borders. Okay. You know, living. To offset the cost of, you know.


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[Assistant] Harry kept his position as head bookkeeper at the new institution, and that is when he became acquainted with Mamie,


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[Assistant] Who like I said, worked as a secretary for Logan First National Bank.


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[Assistant] So because those banks merged, it made Mamie and Harry co-workers. Now, they already knew each other casually, but


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[Assistant] I think they got to know each other a little bit better here if you pick up what I'm putting down. Carnally.


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[Assistant] Yes. In fact, it was actually Harry who was largely responsible for Jack Thurman, Mamie's husband, becoming a police officer. Because Harry used his status in the community to advocate for Jack.


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[Assistant] And around the late 1920s, an article in the local paper, The Logan Banner, referred to Jack as Harry's quote, own favorite appointee of the city police force. Damn. Messy, messy, messy. I was just gonna say this is very messy. It only gets messier.


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[Assistant] Now, it's not really clear if Jack knew that his friend Harry eventually, uh,


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[Assistant] Ended up romantically and sexually involved with his wife.


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[Assistant] But it's hard to believe that he had no idea Mamie was being unfaithful.


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[Assistant] Before Mamie and Harry had become involved, Mamie was known to spend a lot of time at Les Sociétés d'Amour, aka The Amour Club.


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[Assistant] The Amore Club? The Love Club? The Love Club, exactly. The Love Club. The Love Club. Wow. It was a local social club with a questionable reputation.


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[Assistant] During Prohibition, the Amor Club was what was known back then as a Key Club.


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[Assistant] And that meant that patrons had to provide proof of membership and give a password before being allowed inside. Oh damn. To drink and dance and gamble. It was a speakeasy. I think the original, like, Playboy clubs were like that too. I think you're right. It's like a key club.


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[Assistant] Yeaah, they did. For some reason I remember reading that somewhere, that's the only time I've heard it.


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[Assistant] That was also mentioned in Secrets of Playboy. I think they had, um, like, cards. Yeah. Special cards.


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[Assistant] Uhm, so yeaah, like I said, it was like a speakeasy, but the club also gained a reputation as, quote, a secret nightclub for both married and single adults, a haven for unfaithful and unsavory husbands and wives looking for a good time where there was a reasonable amount of confidentiality.


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[Assistant] We have discretion here and high supply. So it's like a sexy nighttime gambling, dancing, drinking, cheating on your wife and husband club. I was just gonna say, it's just like, hey, come cheat. It's a sexy club.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It's a sexy place, okay? Yeah, with sexy people. Don't worry about it. So F. Keith Davis, who wrote The Secret Life and Brutal Death of Mamie Thurman, spoiler alert, points out that since Mamie was a new employee of the bank, it would have been Harry's job to train her


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[Assistant] And their relationship, you know, probably started as an innocent friendship.


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[Assistant] He wrote, conceivably their first conversation on the job led to occasional dinner dates away from the bank.


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[Assistant] And then from there developed into very romantic rendezvous when Jack was on duty.


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[Assistant] Jack and Manie were actually living in an apartment above the Robertson's garage.


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[Assistant] That's not good. And like, like I said, it made it easier.


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[Assistant] Continue to see each other, so it did not peter out. Cause yeaah, it just kept going.


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[Assistant] I feel like I know who she is. Yea, Dave did a really good job of digging too and getting more himself. I got a vibe.


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[Assistant] But, so let's flash forward to when Mimi is discovered. It is very brutal, I just want to give you a heads up. It's intense.


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[Assistant] So at about 2pm on June 22nd, 1932, Garland Davis, a young berry picker, he was making his way through the thickets around Trace Mountain in Logan when he stumbled upon a body.


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[Assistant] The woman's face had been very, very severely beaten to the point that she was almost unrecognizable. Oh god. So Garland immediately ran to get police, who rushed to the scene and started combing the site for evidence.


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[Assistant] And eventually, as we know, the body would be identified as Mamie thermans.


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[Assistant] She had last been seen two days earlier on the evening of, uh, Tuesday, June 21st when she ran into an acquaintance at a store in downtown Logan, but she'd been missing since then.


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[Assistant] And upon first glance, it was obvious to investigators, even though a knife was found in the area where the body was discovered.


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[Assistant] It was obvious to them that Mamie had been killed somewhere else and then dumped in a ditch near the Briar Patch.


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[Assistant] One of the most obvious indications of her being killed somewhere else was the lack of blood at the scene. That was like, immediately one of the things they noticed.


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[Assistant] And they noted that a bullet hole had ripped through one side of her hat. Wow.


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[Assistant] About 8 feet in the other direction, one shoe was discovered, and the match appeared to be missing.


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[Assistant] Now Mamie's purse was also located near her body and her cash and other belongings were still inside. So this wasn't robbery because she also had rings and other jewelry still on her body. So they quickly ruled that out as a motive.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, investigators had discovered tire tracks as well at the scene, indicating that somebody had driven up to the dump site and turned around.


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[Assistant] But other than that, there was little evidence at the scene to point toward a suspect or a motive. Huh. So they're like, what the hell is going on here? Yeah.


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[Assistant] But whoever did this was a fucking monster and they had brutalized her.


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[Assistant] According to court documents, and this is where it gets really intense if you want to skip forward a little bit, her neck had been broken.


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[Assistant] And during the coroner's inquest the following day, it was stated...


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[Assistant] This is interesting. It was stated that the cause of death was the knife wound to the throat.


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[Assistant] Which had severed the trachea, the carotid artery, and the jugular vein.


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[Assistant] And they thought Mamie had been shot twice to make sure she was definitely dead.


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[Assistant] And the broken neck and wound to the throat occurred postmortem.


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[Assistant] Oh my god. I'm surprised they were even able, especially back then, to determine from the three of them, because I also wonder if this person was trying to confuse the cause of death. I wonder, yeaah.


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[Assistant] That's the thing, I think they maybe could have been trying to pull them off here. And according to the medical examiner, quote,


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[Assistant] And ranging upward emerged an inch and a half above the right ear. The other entering on the left side of the forehead made its exit at the back of her head.


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[Assistant] There were powder burns over the face and in the wound at the rear of the left ear. Death resulted instantly from the gunshot wounds before the throat was cut.


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[Assistant] Wow. So intense. That's really intense. It's insane what the, what was done to her.


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[Assistant] Now despite the lack of evidence or other information to inform the case, police wasted no time in identifying Harry Robertson as their primary suspect.


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[Assistant] And he was arrested in his home in Logan at about 8.30pm that very same night.


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[Assistant] And when he was questioned, he more or less confirmed that they did have an extramarital affair with each other, but he minimized the extent of it. Of course. According to Harry, he had quote, quote, he had several dates with Miss Thurman.


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[Assistant] Now Harry was not the only one arrested at the Robertson residence in connection with the murder.


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[Assistant] Clarence Stevenson, a 28 year old black handyman, had been living in the Robertson home for the last five months. And based on his statement given at the time of arrest, investigators believed Stevenson, quote,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Was a go-between for Robertson and Ms. Thurman in arranging details of meetings. And then that was also corroborated by Harry Robertson.


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[Assistant] Now, Clarence wasn't technically employed by the Robertsons, but he lived at their house on and off for the last two years, and he'd do


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[Assistant] Odd jobs, he would take care of their hunting dogs in exchange for the accommodation of, you know, room and board.


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[Assistant] Rumor and innuendo might have led the police to Harry Robertson's home, but once they were there, they knew they were in the right place.


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[Assistant] A preliminary search of the residents turned up evidence they say pointed to


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[Assistant] And Clarence Stevenson was also arrested, but on the other hand,


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[Assistant] He was, quote, secretly removed to a jail in Williamson as a precaution against mob violence because he's the only black man who was arrested out of these four people and they're worried.


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[Assistant] Really, really bad things could have happened to him. Absolutely.


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[Assistant] Not only did the murder call attention to Mamie's affair with Harry Robertson,


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[Assistant] But it also shined a very unwelcome light on the Amore Club, where she was said to be a frequent flyer.


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[Assistant] Just days after the murder, the press started putting out stories about the club, referring to it as a rendezvous where at least half a dozen prominent Logan men with their women friends met occasionally. Oh excuse me, their women friends? Their women friends.


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[Assistant] And they're saying like, these are the prominent men in the city, or in the town. So it's like, you're pointing very specific fingers at people that you don't want to fuck with. Ooh, it's getting messy. It's messier. And it's so sad that this is like so messy and scandalous, but on the back of like Mamie's brutal fucking murder. Yeah. And in my opinion,


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[Assistant] The right person does not get convicted for this. Interesting. But we'll get there.


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[Assistant] Alright. Now as far as anybody knew, the club, the more, uh, more club there did not play a role in Mamie's murder, but investigators still wanted to question as many patrons as possible, and that's kind of why it got discovered and put into the press so much.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now, in the days after the murder, detectives also questioned Mimi's husband Jack, who stated that


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So it would have been very difficult and close to impossible for him to have murdered his wife.


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[Assistant] And then transported her body up to the top of Trace Mountain and then back to be seen on the streets. That'd be pretty tough. He didn't do it. Yea. I'm not saying he didn't arrange it. I don't know. Oh.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I don't, I don't know at all. You're not saying he had like anything to do with it, and you're not saying he had nothing to do with it. Exactly, cause I don't know. I wasn't there. I wasn't there. It was a very long time ago.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now, on June 25th, Harry Robertson and Clarence Stevenson appeared before a packed Logan courtroom where they were arraigned for Mamie Thurman's murder. I believe his wife was eventually let go and the other border was eventually let go. Oh, okay. And it was just Harry and Clarence now that we're gonna stand for this. This feels very, uh, that felt very Burke and Hare.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yes. Like how they bring everybody in and then they start slipping off people. Yup, exactly.


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[Assistant] Now, the session, the arraignment, took much longer than was expected because the case had drawn such a large crowd, it actually had to be moved to a larger circuit court. Both men pleaded not guilty to the charges.


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[Assistant] But only Clarence Stevenson was called to the stand. I'm gonna let you ponder that for a second. Huh.


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[Assistant] Now he was guarded by half a dozen state troopers because again, they were very concerned for his safety during this entire thing.


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[Assistant] And questioned under oath, he shared what he knew of Harry Robertson's relationship with Mamie.


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[Assistant] Harry and Mamie actually had plans to meet the night she disappeared.


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[Assistant] But he said those plans were broken the previous Sunday by Harry himself.


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[Assistant] For the most part, Clarence Stevenson's testimony corroborated actually most of what Harry had told investigators in the days previous, but there were some details, either from Stevenson or Robertson, that contradicted previous testimony. So they, their stories lined up in some ways, but then in other ways, one would say something where the other one was like, no, that's, that's not what happened, and vice versa.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So it gets to be like, huh, like what really did happen and like, what are you, who's covering for who? Yeah, exactly. Who's lying here? No.


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[Assistant] For example, when he was initially asked about the blood stains discovered in the car.


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[Assistant] Clarence told the detectives that they had often transported the hunting dogs in that vehicle.


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[Assistant] And occasionally their feet bled just from, you know, being outside. Aww. I know, and like on rough terrain.


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[Assistant] Oh my goodness. That makes me sad. I know. But when he was asked the same question by the prosecutor during the arraignment,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It was at this point that Clarence Stevenson's demeanor changed dramatically and he became reluctant to answer really any of the prosecutor's questions.


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[Assistant] And he was visibly nervous, so the judge was like, hey, what's going on?


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[Assistant] Now the judge was like, okay, like, identify this person trying to kill you, we'll make sure that you're protected.


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[Assistant] Clarence was like, absolutely, no, no, like, no, I'm not gonna point him out.


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[Assistant] The only witness who gave testimony during the arraignment was a man named R.B. Harris. He was the local undertaker who performed the initial examination of the body.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And after the arraignment, the prosecutor, LP Hager,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Told reporters he intended to call both men, R.B. Harris and Clarence Stevenson, as witnesses along with several state troopers and anybody else marginally related to the case. He was going to call as many people as he could.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now the next day, additional testimony again undermined Clarence Stevens's story when mine worker Ed Dalton


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[Assistant] Testified that he had seen Stevenson out on State Road, State Road number 22.


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[Assistant] Now Dalton's testimony was followed by Harry Robertson, who was called not to testify on his own behalf, but called to testify against Clarence Stevenson.


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[Assistant] The testimony was expected to be sensational and take up most of the day.


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[Assistant] But instead it actually confirmed most of what Clarence Stevenson had already told before. Oh, so did it backfire? It did a little bit.


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[Assistant] Now what was curious though was a letter said to have been written by Clarence Stevenson to his sister.


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[Assistant] Please do all you can to help me and go to Mrs. Robertson and tell her that they have taken me to Williams to keep anyone from seeing me.


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[Assistant] But I will not tell anything to hurt Mr. Harry, and tell her, and do stand up as we all know that it's going to be hard on me and Mr. Harry.


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[Assistant] I don't really think there's anything incriminating in that letter, personally.


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[Assistant] That's why they, that, I guess people could probably look at that and be like,


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[Assistant] It's very interesting. You could speculate, I guess, but there's no, there's no smoke and gun or confession in there to me. That's how I felt. Yeah. And as far as Robertson and Stevens, uh, excuse me, uh, Stevenson's attorneys were concerned, the letter hinted at some sort of scheme or conspiracy, conspiracy to railroad these two men for a crime they didn't commit.


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[Assistant] Maybe this got made up somehow, and the prosecution is gonna use this against them, but I-


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[Assistant] The state's case should be built on a substantial foundation. You will not get justice by accusing the wrong man with the crime. And a few days later,


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[Assistant] After the arraignment, Harry Robertson posted $10,000 bail and was released from jail, but Clarence Stevenson was unable to post the bond, so he was remanded to his cell in Williamson.


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[Assistant] So now Harry's out, but Clarence is still in jail.


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[Assistant] When realistically, at the beginning of all of this, he was...


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[Assistant] Believed to be the accomplice. I was just gonna say he was not the... Not the main guy. The main guy they were even going after in the first place and now they're treating it like he is the only guy? Oh, just wait. I don't know about this.


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[Assistant] When the test results finally came back in late July, they did confirm that the blood found in Harry Robertson's car, I repeat, in Harry Robertson's car,


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[Assistant] And on Clarence Stevenson's clothes was human. Oh.


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[Assistant] Blood was also discovered on a straight razor that had been found in the basement but according to the chemist who conducted the study


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[Assistant] The stains on the razor quote were too faint to test accurately.


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[Assistant] But if you have found blood in the car and blood on one of their clothes, I'm willing to bet the blood on the razor was human.


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[Assistant] Yeah, I don't- There's nothing in me that believes that's not human blood. I'm not saying it's her blood, but I'm just saying.


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[Assistant] To have like no leads and to just be holding this guy? Yeah. Damn. It's nuts.