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[Assistant] Not wanting to waste electricity, my grandma got up and went to turn off the lights. Since she was waking up, she decided to also check on my aunt and mom,


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[Assistant] Who were asleep in their room? My mom was fine, peacefully sleeping the night away. My aunt, on the other hand, was not resting well.


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[Assistant] In the morning, my grandma asked my grandpa if he had gotten up before her and turned on the lights.


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[Assistant] Then accidentally forgetting to turn them back off before heading to bed, but he swore he hadn't.


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[Assistant] The house was originally built for a woman in the early 20th century who moved out west after con- after contracting a lovely little disease known as tuberculosis.


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[Assistant] The climate in the Bay Area was thought to be the best for surviving TB.


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[Assistant] But unfortunately lost it due to being unable to keep it when the great depression hit.


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[Assistant] Tamal Pace? Tamal Pace? Tamal Pace? And the house was vacant until someone else bought it.


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[Assistant] After the house changed hands a couple times, the couple who sold it to my grandparents had an interesting encounter.


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[Assistant] They saw an older woman, still alive in this case, on the sidewalk. Oh my god, I'm gonna cry.


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[Assistant] My grandma believes that ma'am is the original owner of the house who returned to her home, whether due to love for the home or unfinished business.


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[Assistant] I'm literally gonna cry. Seriously. She thinks ma'am never got to have a family or kids, so when she saw my aunt, she felt motherly love towards her and decided to care for the family.


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[Assistant] I firmly believe ma'am existed, and I like to think she's still checking in every so often on the house, even with my mom and aunt all grown up and not living there anymore. Who knows, maybe ma'am stuck with my aunt to help her watch over my two cousins while my aunt recovered from back surgery.


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[Assistant] Wherever she is, I hope she knows how grateful my family is for her care and protection. I hope you enjoyed this story. Remember to keep it weird. Ash, feel free to make your own, but I thought of this one and I kinda liked it. We're going with yours, girl! Hell yeah! So weird, in fact, that a super spooky but super awesome ghost nanny lives in your house to help you keep your kids safe and healthy. Love you guys. Picture time.


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[Assistant] Oh my gosh, this house is beautiful. It's so pretty. I love it. I love mayhem. Oh my god, those palm trees are fucking massive.


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[Assistant] Uh, we love nanas all across the world. Oh my goodness. Go hug your nana. Okay.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Oh, this was a great one. It was. It really was. It was a feel good at one at the end. It was. We love you guys and uhm, we love when you send your listener tales in. Keep sending them. If you have a listener tale that you want to send in, you can send it to Morbid Podcast.


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[Assistant] I just looked crazy while I did that. You did. But, we hope you keep listening. And we hope you keep it weird! But that's where you don't send into your listener tail because I really want to hear it! Woo! Yeehaw! Just yeehaw, I don't even know why.


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[Assistant] I don't know why, but that, you know, I think it's pretty small, so like you could put it in your back pocket, I think. You know, you got a big back pocket, shove it right in there. Put it wherever you want, I don't care, just read it.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The second book, the second Butcher in the Ren book, there is a sneak peek chapter in the paperback edition which comes out July 25th so go get it and then you can read a sneak peek chapter of the second one and you can be like


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I read that chapter, none of you did, and then everybody who else who got the paperback can be like, I did too, and then you guys can talk about it, but everyone else will be like, I don't know what that chapter is, and you'll be cooler. And right now I'm one of the-


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Get on Ash's level July 25th, the paperback book edition of The Butcher and the Wren. Go get it! Everywhere! I love you guys!


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, I think that would be great. I think people would definitely not hate that.


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[Assistant] You know, but here we are. Here we are. And I don't know, I don't know when this is coming out.


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[Assistant] It's a, it's a concept, that's for sure. But hopefully it makes you just think twice about like, you know, being an asshole or doing things that don't bring you joy. Yeah. And if being an asshole brings you joy, then like go talk to someone because that's a problem. That's a problem.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And you mix that with kids, that's, that's not good.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But like, if you're forcing that kind of thing on a five, like five years old, this young, to be doing like, so much. That many things, right.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Well, I was going to say, and if they do enjoy all these, it's like, then you can't treat it like this hard thing, you know, it has to be fun.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Then he should never be a coach and to be honest, like he had no business being a parent. If you can't learn to have patience or have any control over your emotions as an adult, you have


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] When you hit your kid, like, astonishing behavior. Like truly astonishing behavior. I can't imagine being...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Fine for you. I don't get the fear-based parenting. It doesn't make a lot of sense to me.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So why would a little kid have to have respect for someone who openly is treating you with no respect and also telling you you have no respect?


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[Assistant] I was gonna say, that's a housewives thing by the way, just in case you wonder where that's coming from. It is, it's a tamer judge. Uh, but, just in case you wonder why we scream it all the time. But like, that's, again, just my, my thought process is like, your kids should feel safe with you. Absolutely.


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[Assistant] It's like everybody loses their, like loses their temper, loses their cool once in a while and kids will absolutely be the thing to push you there. But the whole point is when you lose control of your emotions a little bit, you should apologize in my opinion.


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[Assistant] And that you can admit when you are wrong. And that like, that I don't hold myself to a different standard than I hold you to. If you lose your shit.


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[Assistant] You need to apologize for it and we need to talk through it and vice versa. I'm not holding myself to some holier than thou standard just because I'm your mom. Like we're on the same playing field here. If I fuck up, I apologize if you fuck up.


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[Assistant] You know, partners here through this whole process of raising you, like, you need to be a part of it.


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[Assistant] And this is so unfortunate because like on one hand, I'm like, yeah, Jennifer, like good for you, but I'm like,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] This is scary, because it's the most dangerous time.


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[Assistant] It's so scary and so treacherous, treacherous of a


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[Assistant] Like you want to have that, like that's, that's awesome. Like you play The Sims or something. Yeah. You sit there and make a house for four hours and you're like, holy shit.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You know, but it's like when it becomes your reality and like when it becomes the only thing that's consuming outside of playing it, that's when it's...


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[Assistant] A problem and that's usually when everything around you is so unsatisfactory.


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[Assistant] You were deceived. You were deceived. Like no matter what, even with the intention behind it was not malicious and when this person is still this person.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It is very interesting to see they just connected as humans. Like even though this is like virtual and all that, like they didn't...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] She fell in love with this person. Yeah. Regardless of whether this was a woman or a man.


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[Assistant] It's refreshing. That they just were like, you know what? I just like you as a person.


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[Assistant] And you're like, you're happy just to see that they both moved past it and that they decided to continue.


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[Assistant] Nobody should ever understand like why someone kills someone in the first place, but he's worried about his reputation and his career. And the answer to that is I'm gonna murder my wife.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Like it was that simple. Picked up on that and was like, oh yeah, he would. Exactly. Like a child. Your child is pinpointing you as the killer of his own mother.


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[Assistant] This one is a doozy. You know, and when you said, you said December 4th, 2004.


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[Assistant] And then I was like, do you ever think about that? Like in these kind of cases, like on the day you're like, what was I doing that day when this was happening? And I had no idea that this was happening somewhere in the country.


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[Assistant] I don't know. Is all I'm saying. He might get away, or he might not. I don't know. Those are the two.


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[Assistant] It was just our regular music backwards to be like satanic. It was just like, metal. Metal.


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[Assistant] It's weird right now to tell you guys that I hope you have a fantastic Halloween because...


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[Assistant] Uhm, or I hope that you had a fantastic Halloween because right now Halloween hasn't even happened yet. That's true. But by the time you listen to this I think it will be over.


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[Assistant] No, we just have to do them, like, really far in advance. Exactly.


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[Assistant] Yeaah. Rachel was great. She's wicked cool. She was fascinating. And we don't have any entities that she saw attached to us, so that's a win. I love hearing that. And we've had some really cool- I love-


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And we got to hang out with Tyler, aka Ghost Honey. And you're jealous.


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[Assistant] And he's the best. He is. We got to go to his book signing and we got to get brunch with him. It was wonderful. Also, uhm, really good brunch recommendation. Alaina's always giving the recommendations, so I'm going to give a recommendation. Go to Source in Cambridge.


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[Assistant] What did you- souffle funfetti chocolate pancakes Elena got? Indeed. I don't know the name of what I got, but it was a pasta dish. It was like a bucatini carbonara? Sounds great. Pasta with an egg on it?


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[Assistant] It looked delicious. And the crispy potatoes are really good to share. They'll ruin you. In like a good way.


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[Assistant] Doing some paranormalies for a minute and don't think those are going anywhere, baby, cause they are here to stay. We'll never get rid of them. We'll never get rid of them. But we leaned in obviously for spooky season. Yeah. But now I bring to you the murder of Elizabeth Congdon. Okay, okay.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So Elizabeth Mannering Congdon, she was born April 22nd, 1894. Now before you leave, pump the brakes, because she was born then, but her whole life goes down, so we get to a place of modern. There you go, which is so different. Yeah.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You know, but she was born April 22nd, 1894, I know, in Duluth, Minnesota to parents Chester Congdon and Clara Bannister. Clara and Chester. Clara and Chester. Cece. What a cute little couple. Yes, Chester was a lawyer and Clara was a school teacher.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So they had moved to the area a few years earlier, and when they did, Chester ended up buying, uh, a steak in this like small mining operation.


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[Assistant] In Musabi Iron Range, I think is how you say it. I feel like Chester. Chester loves to buy small stakes and things. He does. And you know what? Chester loves to not really think that he's going to get a big ROI listening to me over here. Ooh, look at that. Finance boy. He didn't think he was going to get much return on that.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But the operation quickly started pulling huge amounts of iron ore from the earth, and that made Chester Congdon a very wealthy man. Look at him going in there being like, it's nothing.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That's like the best way to go into something, is like ahhh. No expectations. Hope for the best, but expect the worst.


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[Assistant] Precisely. So between his reputation as a lawyer and his income from the mining operation, Chester became a very well known and even actually more well respected figure.


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[Assistant] In Minnesota politics, first through his philanthropic work.


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[Assistant] And then he became a member of the Minnesota House of Representatives. So he's very well respected. He sat on, um,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So his financial success did allow him to buy up large plots of land in and around Duluth, which included a large pa-lot, plot, surrounded by- Different from a plot.


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[Assistant] Or would eventually sat upon it, seat on it. He named it Glensheen.


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[Assistant] Now, Glensheen Mansion ended up becoming a massive 39 room mansion that was built from Vermont granite. The best kind of granite. Oh the best. And they decorated it with furnishings from Italy, Ireland, Germany, the Middle East.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That's a lot of money, but like, mansions- Like 34 room, like-


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[Assistant] Wild and out mansion, but then. Are you ready? I'm ready. Today, 28.5 million. Whoa! Lotta money, baby. Holy shit. Money bags. Wow. But thanks to Chester's foresight, Glensheen was built with like future technologies and cultural tastes in mind. The house was originally lit by gas, uh, gaslight.


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[Assistant] The foresight. That's called planning ahead with Chester. Wow. That's a forethought. A forethought. That's THE forethought.


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[Assistant] And there was also plenty of space on the 22 acre estate to allow for the incorporation of tennis courts and more forms of entertainment as they came along.


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[Assistant] Wow, they really were on it. They really were. And while Glensheen quickly became a popular gathering place for family, friends, and neighbors, actually Elizabeth and her siblings found the estate, quote, stuffy and formal. They weren't like big fans of it when they were younger.


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[Assistant] Even without guests, the Congden girls were expected to wear formal dresses to most meals, and the boys were to wear tuxedos. So I could kinda see why they were like, alright, this is a lot.


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[Assistant] Now when they were away from the formality of parties and meals with their parents,


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[Assistant] Elizabeth and her siblings entertained each other on the massive estate.


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[Assistant] They would play hide and seek. There was like so many, uh, hidden passageways and compartments so they could easily hide. Oh, that's cool. Very, uh, ready or not. Yes. They would go ice skating or play hockey on the creek in the winter. And sometimes they'd just go out and like explore the ground. So slowly but surely they started getting used to their new space. Yeah.


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[Assistant] Gail Fetchinger, I believe is how you say it? Yea. Chester and Clara quote, tried hard to spend time with each child individually. And Chester had a special way of getting to know his children better. Each year Chester took one child on a trip.


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[Assistant] But still, because of the time period, neither parent was like overly affectionate or super doting. Yeah. And all the Congdon children were raised to be self-reliant and one of the biggest things that was like very important to the family was to give back to the community whenever they could. Oh, that's nice. Yeah, it was like a staple.


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[Assistant] It was a particular lesson that Elizabeth would carry with her throughout her entire life.


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[Assistant] So like many of the nation's wealthiest families, once they were of an appropriate age, the Congdon children were sent to some of the country's finest boarding schools.


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[Assistant] Elizabeth and her sister spent their primary school years at Dana Hall, which is actually in Wellesley, Massachusetts.


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[Assistant] Uhm, and it's very popular with American high society children. It sounds it. Dana Hall. Yea, I was gonna say. You gotta be somebody to go to Dana Hall. You gotta be someone. So after graduating from Dana Hall in 1915,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, she followed in the footsteps of her older sister Helen.


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[Assistant] But unfortunately, after just one semester at Vassar, Elizabeth was called home in the fall of 1916 because Chester actually died unexpectedly from a sudden attack of


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[Assistant] Was a good man with sound instincts and large capacities for services.


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[Assistant] Chester's death obviously hit the family very, very hard. Particularly Elizabeth because she and her dad had been very close. So instead of going back to Vassar,


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[Assistant] That was so selfless. Yeah, you know. Now, years earlier, Chester had established two trusts, one to provide for Clara and the children.


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[Assistant] Making it easy for any of my children who so may wish to occupy Glensheen.


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[Assistant] So he made sure that no matter what, his family would be taken care of. If they want to live there, they get to live there. In simple terms, the second trust covered.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] All of the operating costs of the massive estate as long as Clara and or one of the children was in the mansion. Which would be the case until Elizabeth's tragic death.


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[Assistant] Her parents had stressed the importance of helping others the whole time that she'd been growing up.


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[Assistant] So Elizabeth actually ended up leading a life of service much like her parents did. Oh I love that! Yeah, when she returned to Duluth, she and her mother became super close.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Outside of her familial obligations Elizabeth became a dedicated volunteer with multiple organizations in Duluth. She offered up her time whenever she could.


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[Assistant] And after her mom passed, she filled her calendar with fundraisers and board meetings


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[Assistant] From, for causes from the local library and her family's church to the St. Louis County Heritage and Arts Center.


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[Assistant] But she actually shunned public attention and appreciation for her generosity.


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[Assistant] Now, when she went out in public, she dressed very simply and conservatively. And on occasions when she did wear jewelry, it was always very simple and elegant. According to one of her close friends, Elizabeth liked to quote, like to do things for people, but she was very natural.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So basically saying like, she got satisfaction from giving.


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[Assistant] It doesn't occur. And then people almost like think that you are even if you're not necessarily. Exactly. So it's so weird. It's still that way. But a lot of people get uncomfortable being praised. Exactly. And that was Elizabeth. She didn't want the attention not because


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And she was one of those people, but you're right. Good for her, man. Yeah, she's fuckin'... She's killin' it. Killin' it. I love Elizabeth.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But all the time and attention Elizabeth gave to others wasn't exactly without its costs. It often came at the expense of a romantic life.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And the thing was it wasn't that there weren't, you know, suitable men interested in her. It was more that she felt like her time was better spent on other non-romantic pursuits. Yeah.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But there was one man that Elizabeth had maintained a close relationship to.


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[Assistant] According to her friends and family, this man, Fred Wolven,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Wow, that's like the purest love I've ever heard of. Like accepted the fact that she didn't want to be with him, still wanted to be her friend, and left all his money to her. I was just like, buy a ring to remember me by. That's a man right there.


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[Assistant] Children, and she refused to let her single status prevent her from having a family.


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[Assistant] To adopt a three month old baby girl that she ended up naming Marjorie Mannering Congdon.


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[Assistant] She told friends and family, I want to help her. I can give her a good home and schooling.


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[Assistant] And she is precious, that little girl. I know, she was a cute little baby. So those friends and family members suspected there was


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] More to the adoption than Elizabeth Neuer was letting on. Her niece Mary Van Evera said,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] There was a kind of feeling that Marjorie was to be the answer to Aunt Elizabeth's loneliness and her feelings of being unfulfilled as a single person. But that also made Marjorie sort of a toy. Okay. I think that's just an opinion.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And she named her new daughter Jennifer Susan Congdon. Okay. And she really hoped that the two girls would get along as, you know, she and her siblings had. Yeah. Growing up at Glensheen, exploring the manor, playing hide and go seek, all that. Yeah, doing all that fun stuff.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But unfortunately, she would eventually learn that these two girls had very different personalities and there was little chance of them ever becoming close. Oh, that's sad. Yeah, the differences between Marjorie and Jennifer became clear just actually a few years into their adoption. Jennifer was really social, friendly, she liked to be around people.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Who would visit Glenn Sheen and generally enjoyed spending time with her mother.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Marjorie, on the other hand, was introvert- was introverted and preferred being alone with a book to being with other people.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And she referred to her as a complex child to raise. Which, again, opinion. Now at an early age though, Marjorie demonstrated a pretty strong will.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And she always wanted to have more toys or games than the other kids. Like, you know?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] When she didn't get her way, she would have a tantrum, she would hit, she would kick, she would scream, and the tantrums and arguments really didn't happen in public.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And then elaborated that she also had a hard time imposing any boundaries or discipline with Marjorie.


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[Assistant] That's tough. She was kinda just this wild child that never really...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Was able to be tamed and it doesn't sound like Elizabeth.


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[Assistant] I'm sure she probably wanted to tame her in some way, but she, she was, it was hard. Yeah, it's hard.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Well then you add the fact that Marjorie is an adopted child and Elizabeth wanted to give her the best life possible. She doesn't want to have to.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You know, she obviously did not find it easy. She didn't. And the thing was, some, certainly not all, but some of Marjorie's behavioral problems did stem from her insecurities about being adopted. She complained actually pretty often that her cousins, quote, teased her about being illegitimate. Oh, that's fucked up. Yeah.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] We don't know if that really did happen. That's just, that's something she said happened. And I don't know. And when she was older, she would tell people,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That the rest of the fam, uh, the rest of the Congdon family never accepted her because she wasn't related by blood.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] She said I never felt part of the family. The animosity goes back to day one.


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[Assistant] Which those are her feelings. That's her outlook on it.


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[Assistant] And that's the thing, that sounds very sad. It does. But Marjorie even took things like having to sit at the kids table during family events as a slight directly related to her being adopted.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now unlike her own upbringing where we know service to others was really emphasized,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Elizabeth actually lavished both of her girls with gifts, trips, and other extravagances because remember, she adopted these kids. She wants to, she's, I think she's doing more than the average person necessarily would. She's just excited because she's in the position to do so.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I want this. Representatives from the high end stores would come out to the mansions with all the latest fashions and like trunks for the girls to try on. To not have to go anywhere? Oh my god, and just to have like the latest and greatest of everything just brought to you. And try it on in the comfort of your own home.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] She felt like it was a little too like showy. Ostentatious. Ostentatious, beautiful word. Thank you. Ten dollars. But Marjorie.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Embrace the lavish spending, and that began a lifelong struggle with money, characterized by overspending and an obsession with her mother's jewelry. Uh oh.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Which like, when you're little and showing signs of that, that's- Yeah, that's not great. Not good.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] When she was older, Marjorie actually got into the habit of stealing her mother's credit cards and charging up huge bills at local stores.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] By the time she was enrolled at Dana Hall like her mother had been as a teenager.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Elizabeth was regularly receiving calls and letters about Marjory's.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] This is an interesting instance. You might feel the same as me.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, a teacher insisted that Elizabeth needed help raising the children because she was a single parent.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] For a minute. At that moment, at least, because I have a feeling this isn't going to turn out well. Nope. Which is really breaking my heart. I know. Because Elizabeth really seems like a cool chick. She is. This is a very, very tragic story.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And it was really just all too much for Elizabeth to deal with and when she did recognize that she was in over her head.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] She took Marjorie to be evaluated at the, uh, Meninger Clinic, which was a psychiatric treatment center in Topeka, Kansas. It's Topeka, right? Topeka, yea.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The doctors considered her behavioral problems and her general disposition to actually be more serious than just teenage problems.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Took the right steps. Took the steps, yeaah. Yeaah, exactly. And that fall, uh, Marjorie did not return to Dana Hall. Instead she was sent to a group home in St. Louis, uh, and she finished out her senior year.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But her plans changed suddenly after she met her soon to be husband, Dick Leroy.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now, let's talk about Dick Leroy a little bit. Let's talk about Dick. You know?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] When Dick Leroy graduated from the University of Massachusetts in 1950,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He had planned to go on to pursue a law degree. A UMass guy. A UMass cad.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But unfortunately, he didn't have a ton of money and his lack of funds forced him to change his plans. And instead, he just accepted an offer from his brother to come to St. Louis, St. Louis.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And work with him in the insurance business. Alright. So he hadn't lived there more than a couple months when he met Marjorie.


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[Assistant] Dick recalled of their early days, she was so exuberant, so full of fun.


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[Assistant] They were both members of the Centenary Methodist Church, so most of their dating life revolved around the church and its associated activity groups.


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[Assistant] But interestingly, no matter how much time they spent together, it's kind of unclear how much Dick really did learn about Marjorie. There were definitely skeletons she was keeping in the closet, for lack of a better term.


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[Assistant] She told him that she was from an upper middle class family, which is, uh,


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[Assistant] An interesting way to describe that well. That is very interesting. And had been studying nursing at Washington University when they met.


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[Assistant] And when she had to visit the clinic in early 1951, she explained to Dick that she had some trouble in her teens and her overprotective mother had insisted that she visit the clinic.


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[Assistant] Which is her personal business to share with whomever she pleases. But it's just a fact that he did not know. He did not know. Exactly. And then, in the winter of 1951, he and Marjorie became engaged. Much to Elizabeth's displeasure.


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[Assistant] She was not happy about this. And it wasn't that she disapproved of Dick as a person.


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[Assistant] It was just that she was concerned that Marjorie was rushing into marriage. She was like, you just met this guy like barely a year ago.


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[Assistant] And I was really hoping that you would focus on your education instead of just getting married. Very, you know, classic parent worry. Yeah, absolutely. And she was like, I think she was like right out of high school and this happened. So.


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[Assistant] She actually couldn't have picked a better man for Marjorie to marry. Dick's family had been financially well off during the really early years of his life.


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[Assistant] But a series of unfortunate events actually led to a loss of their income, and so the Leroy family had to get used to living without all the finer things.


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[Assistant] And given Marjorie's tendency to overspend and her general irresponsibility with money,


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[Assistant] Elizabeth was like, okay, well maybe Dick's thriftiness will help balance out that impulsive part of Marjorie. Like, this could be good for her. Like maybe it will be a nice balance. Right.


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[Assistant] So Marjorie and Dick were married on June 30th, 1951 in a traditional Methodist ceremony, which was actually held in the large living room at Glen Sheen. And there was an audience of about 150 there.


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[Assistant] And then they went on a two week honeymoon and returned back to St. Louis, St. Louis and eventually got a small apartment in Brentwood, Missouri. Brentwood, excuse me.


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[Assistant] Uh, at first, things between Marjorie and Dick were wonderful. They were very much in the honeymoon state of things. But it didn't take long for Marjorie to slip back into her old habits.


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[Assistant] A few months into the marriage, Dick was very surprised and confused when he started getting threatening phone calls from creditors demanding that payments needed to be made for


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[Assistant] Items and services that he didn't actually even know he had purchased.


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[Assistant] In one instance, he got a call from the local grocery store demanding a payment of $400 that Marjorie had recently charged to their account.


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[Assistant] So a few months later, while Elizabeth was visiting from Minnesota, Marjorie charged several thousand dollars to Dick's accounts at department stores around town.


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[Assistant] Yeah, you're grasping for straws. And the ex- the explanation was obviously a lie meant to avoid consequences, but...


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[Assistant] Elizabeth did end up sending the money to cover the charges anyway, cause she just didn't want Marjorie to.


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[Assistant] In the fall of 1951, she started visiting a local stable to see a horse that she'd been riding.


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[Assistant] And she told Dick that she had been renting, like renting the horse for her session.


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[Assistant] But in truth she had actually purchased this entire fucking horse from a breeder in Illinois and had been putting off payments by telling the breeder that she lost his address and thus didn't know where to send them.


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[Assistant] Wow. So she bought a whole ass horse without buying a whole ass horse and then lied to her husband and the breeder about paying for it or buying it in the first place. Damn.


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[Assistant] Marjorie had told Dick that she'd only received treatment at the clinic to appease her overprotective mother.


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[Assistant] But after talking about it with Elizabeth, Dick began to understand.


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[Assistant] The full extent of Marjorie's mental illness and how it had manifested throughout her teen years.


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[Assistant] So unfortunately the picture of his wife that was emerging


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[Assistant] That's not true. She lied about her, why she had been to this clinic.


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[Assistant] I can understand in the beginning of meeting someone you don't want them to have like preconceived notions about who you are. But before you marry someone they need to know about your health. Yeah, you should at least let them in on some things.


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[Assistant] So in May of 1952, Marjorie gave birth to the first of what would be the couple's seven children. Whoa. It's seven babies. And the first was a boy that they named Peter. Peter. Petal.


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[Assistant] Peter's birth was quickly followed by another baby next year and yet another the year after that and so on and so forth.


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[Assistant] She always had to have the best and most expensive of everything. Mother would talk about Marge and the spending and she really didn't know how to stop it.


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[Assistant] So it was just getting out of control. Yea, it seems like just in over everyone's head. Big time.


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[Assistant] It turned out Elizabeth wasn't the only one who didn't know what to do about Marjorie's spending and compulsive lying.


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[Assistant] In no time at all, Dick was falling into the role of the buffer between Marjorie and all these creditors.


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[Assistant] In reality, neither Dick nor Elizabeth would ever be able to manage her behavior. And that became apparent in the late 1950s.


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[Assistant] When Marjorie bought a $32,000 home near Lake Harriet in Minneapolis without ever consulting her husband.


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[Assistant] Oh, that's not good. She bought a $32,000 home then, which would be like spending $350,000 today and not consulting your partner.


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[Assistant] I don't even know, like, I can't even fathom that. That's not even a- Purchased a whole ass property. Bought a whole ass home. Like-


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[Assistant] What? And when she produced the contract for his signature, Dick was like, I'm not signing that. Like, no fucking way. So she scratched his name off the contract and bribed the realtor with a thousand dollars from an account that didn't exist.


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[Assistant] Wow. Like she was honestly, she was like a con artist as well. Yeah, it sounds like it. And by the time anyone had realized what happened, uh, or that Marjorie had committed multiple acts of fraud, it was too late.


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[Assistant] At every step of the way. And just like she had done so many times before, Elizabeth came to the rescue and sent enough money to cover the costs to avoid any upset.


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[Assistant] So, just a few weeks, cause nobody was stopping her, just a few weeks after purchasing the house, Marjorie insisted to Dick that they needed to redecorate the entire place. So not only was she going to buy a $350,000 property now,


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[Assistant] Uh, and, you know, without consulting him at all, but then she was like, we also need a ton of money to redecorate the entire thing.


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[Assistant] So as he had done before, Dick refused to spend the money on the interior decor, uh, and reminded his wife how much they already owed her mother simply for buying this fucking house. Yeaah. And a few weeks later...


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[Assistant] The family returned home from church to find their dog and the neighbor dog running loose


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[Assistant] But always suspected it was Marjorie who had destroyed the furniture with a knife and blamed it on the dogs. Really?


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[Assistant] Yup, he figured, he thought that somehow she went in there and tore everything open.


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[Assistant] How did they like slit open multiple sofas and chairs and this that and the other thing?


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[Assistant] I would put my money on Marge. I would also put my money on Marge here. But throughout the 1960s Marjorie and Dick's marriage just continued and continued to deteriorate.


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[Assistant] No matter how much money was coming in from Dick's salary and eventually from a trust that Elizabeth set up.


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[Assistant] Marjory seemed to always find ways to spend far more than they actually had.


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[Assistant] So eventually they did decide to go to couples counseling, which was kind of a last ditch effort to save the marriage.


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[Assistant] And it was during this period that a psychiatrist elaborated on Marjorie's earlier diagnosis.


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[Assistant] It doesn't seem like she was willing to accept any kind of help for the mental illness that she was experiencing, so it only got worse.


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[Assistant] And actually, once after they had finished a couple's therapy session, the therapist pulled Dick aside and told him, protect yourself. Make sure you have a special fund. Marjorie could wipe you out.


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[Assistant] Wow. Just because there was, she had no intention to ever stop spending this money. Like, she wasn't going to therapy and saying like,


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[Assistant] This is what I'm doing and I need help stopping it. Yeah, and like I wanna. It was this is what I'm doing and this is what I wanna do. Deal with it. Exactly, deal with it.


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[Assistant] So by 1970, the excess of spending on lavish antiques, horses, properties, and other unnecessary expenses had all become way too much for Dick.


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[Assistant] The last straw came in the fall of 1970 when Marjorie took out a $20,000 loan to start a horse breeding program.


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[Assistant] By uh, saying that she would put these funds up as collateral.


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[Assistant] But Dick was like, listen, we've done this before. We've had this conversation a myriad of times. I can't do this anymore. Yeah.


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[Assistant] And that night he moved into a motel until he was able to find permanent accommodations for himself.


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[Assistant] And it probably took a while because she had fucked up his credit in a way beyond measure. Exactly.


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[Assistant] So in the weeks and months that followed, Marjorie's attitude turned from


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[Assistant] She just started badmouthing him around town in front of the children.


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[Assistant] Trying to win their allegiance and turn them against their dad. And as the divorce proceedings unfolded, she did everything she could to keep the kids from dick.


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[Assistant] And in the years immediately following the divorce, Dick actually ended up seeing very little of his kids because of all the nastiness.


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[Assistant] And all the while Marjorie was continuing to excessively spend


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[Assistant] But that was hardly the end of Dick's relationship with Marjorie because for years afterwards she spent a lot of time spreading rumors and lies about him to anyone who would listen and she would


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[Assistant] And then there were other events like the vandalization of his car in 1973 that unfortunately he couldn't prove, but he was very convinced that Marjorie was responsible.


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[Assistant] Quite simply, Marjorie's position was, if Dick didn't want to be with her, she would do everything in her power to make his life miserable.


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[Assistant] And the years after her divorce from Dick, her behavior continued to just spiral out of control.


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[Assistant] She was getting wilder and just more predictable with every outrageous act.


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[Assistant] She actually was able to coerce Elizabeth into cosigning a loan for $345,000 back then.


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[Assistant] Today that would be like cosigning a loan for 2.1 million dollars. Wow. 2.1 million dollars? Listen, I don't think I love anybody that much to cosign a loan for that. Holy shit. She said that the money was for renovations for her property.


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[Assistant] And at the time, Elizabeth was 80 years old and in declining health, which Marjorie was using to her advantage.


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[Assistant] She said she asked for her mother's signature in a moment where she was not of entirely sound mind.


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[Assistant] And Jennifer said of the situation, Jennifer's the sister. She said with mom, when it came to Marjorie, I don't think she could say no. She was vulnerable, and Marjorie was a con artist.


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[Assistant] Now later that same year, Elizabeth became quote unquote mysteriously ill.


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[Assistant] Basically, people suspected that Marjorie had something to do with this poisoning because she was trying to get more money out of her mother, like she wanted her inheritance. Wow.


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[Assistant] But they chose not to investigate the case, I think, because...


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[Assistant] They would probably have a hard time proving it. Yeaah.


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[Assistant] And it would just be really messy in Elizabeth's final years of life. Ugh.


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[Assistant] But from that point on, nurses and domestic staff were instructed to pay


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[Assistant] Very close attention to Marjorie's interaction with Elizabeth when she visited. Now things only got worse the following year.


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[Assistant] When her home on the Minnesota Wisconsin border caught fire and literally burned to the ground. What?


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[Assistant] And several people overheard her saying she was quote, gonna take care of that bastard. What the fu- like chill out. That's it, I'm like-


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[Assistant] Now later that summer she ended up moving to Colorado and was arrested not long after that on charges that she stole two cars from a Minnesota dealership after purchasing the cars with bad checks. She's… She's so much.


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[Assistant] My fire dies out immediately. Me too. I can barely start one. Yeah. So. But yeah.


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[Assistant] Marjorie ended up meeting another man named, uh, Roger Caldwell at a Parents Without Partners meeting. Which, that's like the saddest thing ever, Parents Without Partners. I know, the name of that just broke my heart. Like, I'm like, I love all of you.


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[Assistant] Now, where Marjorie was described as brash and assertive, Roger was described by those who knew him as a soft-spoken, friendly, and easy-to-approach kind of guy. By some.


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[Assistant] Others described him as a passive dreamer with delusions of grandeur.


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[Assistant] Okay, so those are two mixed reviews. Two different things.


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[Assistant] Yeah, 3 out of 5. Recommend. So he was a man who wanted or maybe even believed that he deserved everything he wanted, but was never really willing to put hard work in to get whatever that was.


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[Assistant] Following his marriage in 1954, Roger had enrolled in a Lutheran college with plans of becoming a minister.


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[Assistant] But just one year later, he abandoned his studies and started working a series of menial jobs.


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[Assistant] Jumped from one job to the other and just dragged his wife along from one location to the next. But his original plan was to become a minister? And yeah, and then he just kinda like walked away from that.


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[Assistant] So in the years that followed, he and his wife would end up having three children, but even that didn't cause Roger to get himself together or settle on a career. And to add to the dysfunction, since he got married, he had developed a drinking problem.


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[Assistant] Which of course exacerbated the tensions and arguments with his wife.


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[Assistant] Roger would promise to quit drinking and he would even actually go to some AA meetings.


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[Assistant] But inevitably he'd start drinking again a few weeks later and the cycle would continue over and over.


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[Assistant] So eventually his wife, Martha got tired of the financial insecurity and Rogers alcoholism and you know, the things that came from that, like his temper. And in July of 1974, they ended up divorcing.


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[Assistant] So to Marjorie, Roger's difficult marriage and personal problems.


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[Assistant] It was them against the world, and that made him so much more attractive.


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[Assistant] So after just two months of dating, the two became engaged on St. Paddy's Day, 1976, and they got married at a small ceremony.


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[Assistant] Uhm, at a hotel in Denver and none of Marjorie's family were in attendance. Wild. They were not invited.


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[Assistant] It didn't take long for Roger to notice certain undesirable qualities in his new life.


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[Assistant] She seemed to, uh, spend far more money than she had. Wait, what? This is new. Crazy, I know. And she was always at odds with the bank and the manager of her trust. You know, the one that she had tried to call a hit out on.


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[Assistant] That's at odds with someone I would say. That is the definition of at odds.


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[Assistant] But before long he started noticing other little things like his credit cards going missing. But whenever he would confront Marjorie about the issue, she would become aggressive or combative.


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[Assistant] In one instance, she did threaten to end her life over it. Wow. That's not cool.


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[Assistant] She decided what they did, where they went, and she manipulated him in other more consequential ways.


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[Assistant] That's nefarious. That is mean. Yea, that's very cruel. That is evil, that is dark-sided. That is dark-sided. Can you, like, not can you imagine, but like, what the fuck? No. I could never do that to somebody. That's literally cruel. That's evil. That's what that is. That's, that's on another level. Yea.


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[Assistant] That particular part of the story, like, really disturbed me.


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[Assistant] There are others that are coming up that also particularly disturbed me. But.


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[Assistant] While the man may have been different, Marjorie's marriage to Roger unfolded almost exactly like her marriage had with Dick Leroy.


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[Assistant] Almost from the start they were behind on all their bills, their home mortgage, their car payments, the horse breeding fee, boarding fees, and other expenses.


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[Assistant] Now, by the end of 1976, they were actually both under investigation by the Colorado FBI


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[Assistant] And at the same time, their payment on their newly purchased home. Their brand new home. Yeah.


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[Assistant] Was almost due, and neither of them had the money to cover the amount, so foreclosure was a near certainty.


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[Assistant] So despite their obvious financial and increasingly legal problems, Marjorie and Roger just kept on spendin', kept on dreamin'.


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[Assistant] That seems like it'll help. Yeah, they talked about buying a new, bigger house and starting a horse breeding and training program.


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[Assistant] You know, with the horses that they no longer had. Yea, what would stop them, you know? You know, just the fact that... Besides everything. Yea, just the world. And the problem, one of them, was that while she was still receiving money from her trust, most of the funds were going to Marjorie's creditors because she owed so much money, which left them almost nothing to spend freely.


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[Assistant] But still, Marjorie insisted they could make their dream of a horse farm come true.


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[Assistant] Roger Caldwell finally met his mother-in-law in late May of 1977 when he flew to Duluth to meet the managers of Marjory's Trust on her behalf. Oh, okay. Hey, I have a meeting with the people who are in charge of the money that you're giving your daughter. Nice to meet you. That I've never met you. Wow. Wonderful.


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[Assistant] Now Roger had gone to the trustees with the request of an advance of $750,000. Come on.


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[Assistant] So that he and Marjorie could build their horse ranch in Colorado.


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[Assistant] According to a letter he presented to the board, which was supposedly written by Marjorie's son's doctor at the National Asthma Center, Rick Leroy, her son,


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[Assistant] Now in truth, Rick did not have cystic fibrosis. Wow. And the board would later learn that the letter was written by Marjorie and was a fraud. That's so fucked up. Yeah. Like you lie.


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[Assistant] A lot of this is fucked up, but that's really fucked up. Number one, you're pretending to be a doctor, which that alone is like, ma'am what?


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[Assistant] Secondly, you're making up that your child has a horrible thing that they don't have. Wow. Like are you, you kind of manifest that that happens? That's the thing, like don't put that shit into the universe. So you can get your fucking horse farm? Yeaah. That you can't pay for? Damn.


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[Assistant] But whether they suspected at the time or not that that letter was a fraud, they still refused the request. And later it was confirmed that that was not real.


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[Assistant] And just a few weeks later, things got even worse for Marjorie and Roger.


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[Assistant] The bank repossessed their cars. Their checking accounts both had zero dollars in them because they had spent everything. And this is with Elizabeth along the way, like patching up her at every step of the way.


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[Assistant] Like that's wild. Yeah, it was getting to the point where like her trust wasn't going to be enough money. That's why the people were like, the managers were like, you can't continue to take all of this because it's running low. You're going to lose it all.


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[Assistant] $100,000 between the middle of May and the middle of June. Holy shit. Spent $100,000 in one month. That's impressive.


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[Assistant] On everything from gas and food to jewelry and guess what's the other thing she bought.


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[Assistant] Had declined considerably. She had suffered a stroke a few years earlier.


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[Assistant] So she had become partially paralyzed and was mostly confined to her bed. And she was also having difficulty speaking.


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[Assistant] So as a result she required round the clock medical care, which was provided by an in-home nurse. Okay.


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[Assistant] A team of them who would, you know, switch off ships and everything.


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[Assistant] Now on the evening of June 26th, 1977, Mildred Garvoo, I believe is how you say it, was thinking about the night that she had ahead of her.


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[Assistant] Like all the nurses she loved, Mildred loved Elizabeth and could have used the additional money, but working overnight and then straight through the next afternoon was a really tiring shift.


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[Assistant] So, and then to make matters worse, Elizabeth was expecting a visit from Marjorie that evening, which all the nurses knew always made for a very tense or unpleasant experience.


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[Assistant] So, Mildred called her co-worker, 66-year-old Velma Piatila.


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[Assistant] And asked if she would be willing to cover her overnight shift. Like she was like, will you just do my overnight and then I'll relieve you in the afternoon? Yeah.


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[Assistant] Now, as one of the older nurses with the agency, Velma's husband really didn't like the idea of her working overnight alone in the huge mansion. Yea, cause it's huge. Oh my god, it's massive. You google this thing man, it's wow. It's beautiful too. It's like some Bridgerton shit. Literally. Yea. It's like bigger than some Bridgerton shit.


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[Assistant] Now the next morning, June 27th, Mildred arrived at, uh, at Glensheen for her shift around 7am. So she was relieving Velma in the morning.


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[Assistant] And Mildred, who had had her shift covered. That morning she ran into the cook Prudence.


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[Assistant] Now Mildred had expected to be met by Velma, and she was surprised when Prudence said that she hadn't seen Velma or Elizabeth yet.


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[Assistant] So she started climbing the stairs that led to Elizabeth's room and Mildred was stopped abruptly on the stairs when she saw what appeared to be a pair of legs laying motionless on the landing between the first and second floor. So she approached slowly and ended up discovering Velma Pietla.


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[Assistant] Sitting half on the window seat before the picture window. She'd been like propped up on the window seat.


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[Assistant] At first, Mildred was like, did she stop to rest or did she fall? Like, she couldn't tell. She later told reporters, I thought to myself, Velma's resting. But then I realized that was strange, not on the stairway, and Velma isn't the resting kind.


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[Assistant] Now as she got closer, the way in which Velma's body was twisted suggested that something was wrong.


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[Assistant] And then Mildred noticed a large pool of blood that had crusted onto the carpet in front of Velma.


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[Assistant] And that was when she finally realized that Velma's face was quote,


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[Assistant] And she was not supposed to work. And she was the oldest nurse. The oldest nurse and her husband didn't want her to go. Mhm. Ugh. Like tragic. Tragic anyways and then you add all of that onto it. It just adds layers. Now on the floor in front of Velma's body was a bloody brass candlestick.


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[Assistant] At that moment, presumably the weapon used to end Velma's life and would later be confirmed.


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[Assistant] So she's fully panicked, runs up the second flight of stairs and bursts into Elizabeth's room, obviously hoping to find the woman unharmed.


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[Assistant] Inside the room was in shambles, dresser drawers had been pulled out and upended, jewelry boxes had been emptied and thrown to the floor.


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[Assistant] And Elizabeth was lying face up on her bed with the sheets pulled back.


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[Assistant] And two satin pillows were covering her face. Oh my god.


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[Assistant] So she raced down the stairs and shouted for Prudence the Cook to call the police, who ended up arriving a short time later.


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[Assistant] Now based on the way that the scene was discovered, Duluth police detective Ernest Grams theorized that


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[Assistant] Graham suspected that the burglar had gotten into the house through a broken window that investigators discovered in the basement.


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[Assistant] And then they figured that whoever it was made their way up the stairs where they encountered and ultimately killed Velma.


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[Assistant] She fell about seven steps to a landing, crawled, or was placed atop a window seat and died there.


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[Assistant] And once this culprit had taken whatever jewelry was to be found in the bedroom, they said the killer stole Velma's two door 19


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[Assistant] The St. Louis, uh, Louis, Louis County Medical Examiner.


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[Assistant] Unusual elements of the scene as soon as he knelt beside Velma's body.


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[Assistant] First, there was a nylon stocking wrapped so tightly around her left wrist that it had to be cut off.


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[Assistant] What? Mhm. There were also, quote, tattoo-like puncture wounds on her face, forearm, and finger.


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[Assistant] But why they were there and what had caused them were a mystery at that point. And this is Velma? This is Velma. Wow. In her bedroom.


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[Assistant] Dr. Goldschmidt discovered the nurse's log where almost all significant activity was routinely recorded.


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[Assistant] And the log indicated that Velma had started her shift around 11pm, just like expected.


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[Assistant] And noted several times that she'd moved Elizabeth in the hours that followed. The final note was entered around 2.30am.


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[Assistant] So based on the log, Dr. Goldschmidt narrowed the time of death somewhere between 2.30am and 7am. That's good to have that. Yeah, great. So, that sounded sarcastic, but it wasn't.


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[Assistant] I really meant yeaah. Yeaah. I really meant yeaah. I really meant yeaah. Later that afternoon.


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[Assistant] Excuse me. When the bodies were transferred to St. Luke's Hospital, Dr. Goldschmidt was able to conduct the autopsies at that point, and that confirmed what everybody already assumed.


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[Assistant] Velma's autopsy was conducted by assistant medical examiner Dr. Stanley Irving.


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[Assistant] And he concluded that her cause of death was blunt force injury to the head.


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[Assistant] And could have been the result of any of the 23 wounds caused by blows from the candlestick.


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[Assistant] She had been hit so many times that her skull had fractured, quote, into four quadrants and broke her jaw on both sides. Oh my god. Yup.


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[Assistant] Now in addition to that, I mentioned small tattoo-like puncture wounds that she had. Those were determined to have come from exposed nails on the bottom of one of her shoes.


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[Assistant] That's really the only info that we could find on that. But years later while preparing for the trial this is interesting.


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[Assistant] Someone in the district attorney's office noted that the photos taken at the scene and those taken during the autopsy showed that Velma's watch stopped at 2.50am.


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[Assistant] So they were able to realize that later.


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[Assistant] So the time of death at the time remained somewhat between the hours of 2.30 and 7am. Huh.


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[Assistant] But once they got ready for the trial they were able to narrow it. So Dr. Goldschmidt conducted Elizabeth's autopsy.


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[Assistant] And he was accompanied by Duluth crime scene photographer Waller DeSanto.


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[Assistant] Among the first things he noticed were the number of bruises on Elizabeth's body.


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[Assistant] Despite having been partially paralyzed by her stroke, Dr. Goldschmidt concluded that Elizabeth had


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[Assistant] Very much attempted to fight off her killer the best she could.


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[Assistant] And there were particular hemorrhaging, or hemorrhages in her eyes.


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[Assistant] And that and the coloring her, coloring of her head, neck and upper torso.


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[Assistant] Indicated that obviously the cause of death was suffocation.


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[Assistant] There were also constriction marks on her finger and left wrist which indicated that the jewelry had been removed from her body after she had died, which is just...


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[Assistant] To think that somebody smothered her and then took her jewelry off of her dead body is just


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[Assistant] It's also just so, so fucked up. Yeah, it adds a layer of just, ugh.


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[Assistant] So back at Glensheen, a large number of officers obviously had been assigned to guard the crime scene while technicians were making their way through the mass of estate. I can't imagine having that be your job. And obviously you want to find out who murdered these two women. And this is a big job.


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[Assistant] Who had tried to break into her home not far from Glensheen. Oh damn.


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[Assistant] An empty jewelry box was on the floor and the room was ransacked.


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[Assistant] But unfortunately, aside from the missing jewelry and broken basement window, the crime scene wasn't giving any further clues.


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[Assistant] During a canvas of nearby houses, multiple local children told police that they had seen a man they described as


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[Assistant] And later that afternoon, police were able to locate that man after briefly detaining and questioning him though.


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[Assistant] It was determined that he had a valid reason for being on the property and it was unrelated. Aww.


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[Assistant] Now Velma's stolen car, which investigators hoped would lead them to the killer,


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[Assistant] Also turned to be out, uh, also turned out to be of little use.


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[Assistant] Later that afternoon, airport police found the keys to the Ford Granada in one of the airport trash bins.


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[Assistant] What? Isn't that crazy? And the car itself was later discovered in one of the airport parking lots free of evidence or leads.


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[Assistant] Weren't exactly sure where they remembered spotting the car. So it was just like, why are you even calling?


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[Assistant] When the Caldwell's attorney, because remember she's a Caldwell now, uh, when their attorney David Arnold called Marjorie to let her know that her mother had been murdered.


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[Assistant] Marjorie reacted as one would expect in such a situation, sobbing and asking a series of relevant questions. But as the conversation went on, the lawyer there noticed a change in her tone from hysterical to very business-like.


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[Assistant] As she went through the checklist of things that needed to be done for the funeral.


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[Assistant] Marjorie put in an offer on a $300,000 ranch in Colorado, which uhm, struck investigators as strange.


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[Assistant] But detectives, as she was pulling that bullshit, noticed that the top of Roger's right hand was swollen. And he had a cut on the right side of his lip. Shut up. Remember, Elizabeth fought back. Oh, shut the fuck up. So when they asked how it happened, Roger couldn't give them an answer.


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[Assistant] He didn't even try to, he just couldn't. He didn't even come up with a story, he was just like, I don't know, that's weird. I just woke up one day and my hand was full and my lip was split. It happens. Now at the end of the interview, the detectives asked if they would be willing to take a polygraph test, like the rest of the family had volunteered to do, and both of them declined.


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[Assistant] Oh boy. Now, while police were interviewing the couple, a separate set of investigators were searching their hotel room at the Duluth Radisson, I believe, where they found a receipt dated June 27th from Host of Minneapolis, a gift shop located in the airport. Imagine that.


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[Assistant] Wow. It's like guys, I mean I'm glad. I'm glad they're this dumb. But damn.


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[Assistant] Well, excuse me. I was going to say one. When detectives spoke to the clerk at Host of Minneapolis, they verified that a man matching Roger's description purchased a garment bag on the day of the murder.


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[Assistant] Now days later that same clerk would pick Roger out of a photo array and identify him as the man who purchased the bag.


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[Assistant] The receipt and verification from the clerk at the shop prompted investigators


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[Assistant] To shift their focus from, you know, the burglary gone wrong theory. To, huh. To the possibility that Roger and Marjorie there might be involved in the robbery and murder. Like, huh, maybe inheritance is a thing here. Maybe. I'm like, you guys didn't fucking think that immediately? Like, come on. Like, hello? That wasn't on your radar.


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[Assistant] Now their suspicions were strengthened a couple days later when a hotel clerk in Colorado alerted them to an envelope addressed to Roger.


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[Assistant] Police executed a search warrant at the Caldwell home on July 5th. Oh, you don't say.


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[Assistant] Just knowing that. You know, like just know, I just, I can't. I can't at all.


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[Assistant] The evidence collected at the house proved to be sufficient for a warrant for Roger's arrest. And later that night, just after midnight, Roger Caldwell was arrested for the murders of Elizabeth Congdon and Velma Pietila. Good. Pietila, excuse me.


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[Assistant] Now, on July 8th, 1977, Roger Caldwell appeared in a St. Louis, St. Louis County court.


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[Assistant] Where he was arraigned on two counts of first degree murder.


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[Assistant] Now meanwhile, Marjorie, who hadn't been charged with anything just yet,


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[Assistant] They paint a grim picture of her alleged involvement in this matter. Oh boy.


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[Assistant] Her mother's stolen jewelry was in her home along with like a 1700 year old coin. That's not a great look for her. Not a great look for her.


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[Assistant] Now while her husband was being arraigned for the murders of her mother and Velma, Marjorie was in Minneapolis scheming for a way to get herself out of trouble.


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[Assistant] According to Meshpecher, Marjorie needed to stay in Minneapolis to care for her, uh, care for her son, who was, quote,


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[Assistant] Suffering from a very serious asthmatic condition.


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[Assistant] No, he also explained that she may need to ultimately return to Colorado for the sake of his health.


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[Assistant] It didn't take long for them to dig up all of the information related to their criminal investigations. And remember those fraud charges in Colorado.


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[Assistant] And there were also several family, family members, family members, family members who confirmed reports of Marjorie's estrangement from the rest of the family and they were all quick to add that Marjorie quote,


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[Assistant] Felt alienated from the family for reasons that she created. Wow. Yeah. Uh huh.


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[Assistant] Now on July 14th, detectives in Colorado located a safety deposit. I'm really losing it here, you guys.


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[Assistant] They located a safety deposit box at Golden State Bank, opened by Roger on June 28th. Oof. The day after everything happened.


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[Assistant] Now, among the documents in the box, detectives discovered a handwritten notarized will dated June 24th written by Marjorie.


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[Assistant] Giving Roger her share of her grandfather's estate upon her mother's death.


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[Assistant] Whoa. Assuming it was all legal, the document meant that


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[Assistant] In the event of Elizabeth Congdon's death, Roger Caldwell could receive roughly 2.5 million dollars. Holy shit. How strange. That's really wacky. Mhm. That just a couple days before she died, you had the wherewithal to write that. Coincidence is coincidence, you know? That's the thing.


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[Assistant] Now, a month later on August 5th, Roger was indicted by a grand jury for the murders of Elizabeth and Velma.


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[Assistant] And among the strongest evidence in the indictment was the newly written will, which may have implicated Marjorie into the plot to murder her mother.


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[Assistant] And probably by no coincidence, just a few days after Roger's appearance in court, Marjorie went to the Minnesota Police Department to report that a man, quote, dressed like a cop had attacked her with a razor at her son's apartment, telling her to stay away from Duluth and to not help her husband.


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[Assistant] ...had been tapped and she had been followed by a man driving a lime green car with a pointy front.


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[Assistant] Marjorie did have slashes on the left side of her face, her left breast, and her left shoulder. Jeez. But the doctor who treated her wounds at Mercy Hospital told investigators that he believed they were self-inflicted. Eek. So yeaah.


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[Assistant] Now, the police were very vague in their responses, but a spokesperson for the department did explain that the cause had been unfounded, meaning that it had been investigated and was proven that the crime either did not happen or was not attempted.


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[Assistant] Marjorie's claims about being attacked were very clearly an attempt to undermine the investigation into the murders and the public's faith in the Duluth Police Department.


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[Assistant] But as soon as she realized they didn't believe her story and that she could have been held accountable for making false reports, she told her lawyer to request that the investigation into her report be discontinued. She said, you know what, nevermind. That happened, but don't investigate.


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[Assistant] Girly pop. Don't do that. So Roger appeared in court again on February 27th where he pleaded not guilty to both charges of first degree murder and a trial date was set for early April.


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[Assistant] Now due to the prominence of the case and the heavy coverage that it was getting in the press, the judge, Jack Litman,


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[Assistant] He ended up moving the trial from Duluth to Brainerd, Minnesota.


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[Assistant] And he explained the decision saying,


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[Assistant] Excuse me, the Kongden name has been known here for a century.


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[Assistant] And then he noted the numerous street schools and other landmarks that were bearing the family's name.


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[Assistant] These murders were motivated crimes. And he said Roger was experiencing, and the quote,


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[Assistant] Mainly focusing on the extent of his and Marjorie's financial problems, fraud, and incredible debt.


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[Assistant] The jury was also shown a large amount of forensic evidence, including fingerprints and hair found in the house that matched Roger Caldwell.


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[Assistant] The jewelry found in Roger's possession, which was Elizabeth's, and had been stolen from her bedroom. It's pretty open and shut. And the will that had been written up by Marjorie just days before the murders. Yeah, it's not looking good. Taken together, DeSanto told the jury, that will was a carrot not too hard to swallow. And she's like, what? Okay.


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[Assistant] For example, they said the cuts on Roger's hands and face that investigators believe to have been caused during the attack on Elizabeth could have come from anywhere. Yea, of course. He didn't remember where, but they could have come from anywhere.


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[Assistant] So Thompson argued that the small injury above Roger's lip was actually a cold sore, not a wound. Uhm, don't be rude, okay?


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[Assistant] He's got, he's got a cold sore. Investigators were like, there's a difference between like a split lip and a cold sore, but okay. Absolutely.


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[Assistant] Now, while much of his time was spent undermining the prosecution's argument,


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[Assistant] Thompson's primary tactic was to shift blame away from his client and toward Marjorie.


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[Assistant] In his cross examination of, uh, the Caldwell's former attorney, David Arnold.


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[Assistant] Thompson kept a tight focus on the fact that the vast majority of the financial problems


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[Assistant] I think it might have been Roger who was there that morning. I think you might be right.


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[Assistant] So compared to the robust case presented by the prosecution, Thompson's case was brief and pretty weak. Yeah. He just relied more on Marjorie's poor reputation and public speculation.


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[Assistant] Yeah, he was like, don't pay attention to any of that. Cause it's like, that's great, like you're not wrong, Marjorie does have a pretty bad reputation, but she's not on trial right now. Your client is. And her, like, everything isn't found at the crime scene right now. Exactly.


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[Assistant] Now closing arguments were presented on July 5th, during which prosecutor John DeSanto addressed Thompson's attempt to deflect blame onto Marjorie.


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[Assistant] He told the jury that if Marjorie was involved at all, it was in creating the will, which he called a desperate attempt to persuade Roger Caldwell to go to Duluth and commit murder.


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[Assistant] He reminded the jury though that this case was about the act of murder, and in that regard, the evidence pointed directly at Roger Caldwell.


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[Assistant] So the jury deliberated for three days before finally returning.


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[Assistant] Guilty verdicts on both counts of first degree murder. You're guilty. Guilty, guilty. When the verdict was read in the courtroom, Roger turned to the jury and said softly, you're wrong. Just turned to them and said, you're wrong. I wish one of them just


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[Assistant] Maybe they did, I didn't find that, but they may have. Incorrect.


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[Assistant] So outside of the courtroom, John DeSantos indicated to the press that while Roger's trial had come to an end, the case was far from concluded. He told them this was just the end of step one.


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[Assistant] And when asked if he intended to go after Marjorie next, he replied, probably. That's all I can say right now. Wow, that's casual. I love that he was just like, yeah, prob. Yeah, probably. I'll see how it all shakes out, you know?


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[Assistant] Now on August 18th, 1978, a grand jury was convened and Marjorie was indicted on two counts of aiding and abetting murder in the first degree and two counts of conspiracy to commit murder. Bye. Bye, you would think. No.


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[Assistant] With regard to Velma's murder, the prosecution argued that


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[Assistant] Quote, her death should have been foreseeable as a probable consequence of trying to kill Kongden.


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[Assistant] That is so tragic. Horrible. But they said because, like, her death was foreseeable and a probable consequence, Marjorie should be held equally responsible.


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[Assistant] Marjorie's case too was moved from St. Louis, St. Louis to Dakota County in January. Okay.


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[Assistant] With the jury selection scheduled to begin in early April 1979.


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[Assistant] Now opening statements began on April 27th with John DeSanto telling the jury.


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[Assistant] DeSanto gave a detailed description of Marjorie's troubled and troubling financial history.


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[Assistant] Her fraud attempts, and he pointed specifically to a recent conversation she'd had with an acquaintance where she said quote,


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[Assistant] The only way to get out of my financial troubles is my mother's death.


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[Assistant] Wow. Like, girl. Wow. First of all, who the fuck says that? And second of all?


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[Assistant] And who hears that and is just like, well, I guess I'll go about my life now. Like, I'd be like, what the fuck? Luckily that person was like, hey, she said to me. Thank goodness. But given the amount of detailed information the prosecutor had dug up related to Marjorie's fraud and financial problems, and the fact that a total of 167 witnesses were called, the trial dragged on for two and a half months.


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[Assistant] DeSanto's argument was exactly er, essentially the same that he had presented against Roger Caldwell.


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[Assistant] Took a similar approach as to that of Roger's attorney, which like, I don't know why you would do that when you just lost. Yea, it didn't seem to work out. But he suggested that the crime could have been committed by any one of the other family members who stood to inherit money from Elizabeth's estate. It's like,


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[Assistant] Were all of them in the same kind of dire straits that Marjorie was? Yeah, it's like, come on, let's, like, I mean, I know you gotta do your job, but like, that was weak. Really?


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[Assistant] Now, one of Meshpecher's primary targets was Elizabeth's nephew, Thomas Congdon, also the executor of her will.


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[Assistant] Who hired a private detective in the weeks following Elizabeth's death. Ooh, that was probably to find out who murdered her in my opinion.


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[Assistant] Planting? Yeah, planting evidence and giving it to the, to the investigators, but it's like,


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[Assistant] So essentially his approach to Marjorie's defense was just to create enough doubt in the minds of the jury that they simply couldn't find her guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.


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[Assistant] What?! Yep, on July 21st, 1979, after just one day of deliberation, the jury returned verdicts of not guilty on all counts.


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[Assistant] I'm shocked. Isn't that crazy? When reporters asked one of the jurors why they voted to acquit, she responded, oh, I'm not saying, but it was all Marge and Mr. Meshbesher.


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[Assistant] Marge. Wow, just Marge. Your girl. You know Marge. Later, that same jury member called Marjorie and asked her for an autograph for her mother.


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[Assistant] I'm sorry, what? The jury member called Marjorie and was like, hey my mom's a big fan, can I get an autograph?


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[Assistant] John DeSanto strongly disagreed and said, I think the jury said we didn't prove Marjorie Caldwell did it. I have no doubt whatsoever that Marjorie Caldwell is guilty.


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[Assistant] Yeah, but don't worry, the rest of her life was not great. Okay.


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[Assistant] But before we get there, on September 20th, 1979, a post-conviction relief hearing was held in Duluth where Roger Caldwell sought a new trial


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[Assistant] Based on a handwriting analysis that uncovered during Marjorie's trial, that could have influenced the outcome in his case. Huh.


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[Assistant] On April 21st, 1980, after seriously considering the arguments, Judge Litman determined that the evidence presented in Marjory's trial wouldn't have swayed the jury in Roger's case, so his request for a new trial was declined. Bye!


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[Assistant] However, on appeal, the state supreme court disagreed with that judge and did overturn Roger's guilty verdict. What? Citing the significance of questionable fingerprint evidence used to convict him.


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[Assistant] Now on September 1st, 1982, after serving more than five years in prison,


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[Assistant] Roger was released from Stillwater pending a new date for retrial of the case. Now, rather than go through the entire case again, DeSanto offered Roger a plea deal.


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[Assistant] Where he would plead guilty to two counts of second degree murder.


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[Assistant] And make a full confession in exchange for a sentence of time served.


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[Assistant] What? So Roger agreed to the deal.


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[Assistant] But unfortunately, his confession didn't offer any new insight into the murders or information that they could have used to go after Marjorie.


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[Assistant] So they both kind of got away with this.


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[Assistant] Now, six years later, on May 18th, 1988.


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[Assistant] Roger actually ended up ending his old life at his childhood home in Pennsylvania.


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[Assistant] But in the years following his release, he lived in constant fear of being reincarcerated for the crime.


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[Assistant] And he struggled to maintain employment and any kind of independence because of that. And something that was particularly difficult for him, he said, was that Marjorie completely abandoned him.


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[Assistant] It just isn't right, you don't treat people that way. As thick-headed and naive I was, it's clear she was always lying to me.


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[Assistant] Yeah, of course. So she just, like, he potentially murdered her fucking mother. Like, personally, I believe he did.


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[Assistant] Holy shit. And then she just was like...


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[Assistant] Thanks, bye. I am just- After he went to prison for like five years for it. Yea, I was just like, oh well, that's that. And didn't get anything that she had promised him. Holy shit. Allegedly. Now after her acquittal,


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[Assistant] Marjorie resumed and ramped up her suspicious behavior, compulsive lying, and fraud in ways that no one could have expected.


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[Assistant] Just after the trial, five of her seven children filed a civil lawsuit against her.


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[Assistant] The next day, Helen slipped into a coma and died days later on March 30th.


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[Assistant] After Margaery, er, excuse me, after Helen's death, Margaery started dating Helen's husband. Oh my god.


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[Assistant] After a lengthy investigation Marjorie was arrested for the arson.


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[Assistant] And in January of 1984, a jury found her guilty of arson and insurance fraud.


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[Assistant] For which she was sentenced to 21 months at the state women's prison in Minnesota. She appealed the verdict, arguing that the prosecutor had insufficient evidence for her conviction.


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[Assistant] But the Minnesota State, excuse me, Minnesota Court of Appeals disagreed and they did uphold, uphold her conviction. Holy shit.


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[Assistant] So she was released in October of 1986 and she and her husband Wally that she had.


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[Assistant] Taken after Helen's death. Yeah. They moved to Arizona where she continued her pattern of excessive and impulsive spending and fraud.


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[Assistant] Police there in Arizona suspected Marjorie of being involved in several arson cases.


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[Assistant] And in October of 1992, she went to trial. On October 29th, 1992,


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[Assistant] The next day her husband was found dead in the couple's home. Shut up. And Marjorie was arrested for his murder.


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[Assistant] Oh my god. Unfortunately, the medical examiner determined the cause of death to be a drug overdose and admitted that it could have been the result of suicide. So the murder charges were dropped. I'm sorry.


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[Assistant] They're trying, but she just keeps like, skipping out on it.


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[Assistant] So she served her sentence for the arsons, that 15 year sentence.


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[Assistant] Uhm, at the Arizona State Women's Prison in Goodyear, Arizona, but she was granted earned release on January 5th, 2005. So she did not serve her, uh, full sentence. And after her release, she decided to remain in Tucson.


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[Assistant] Where she continued the pattern of behavior that plagued her for nearly her entire life, including arrests for theft and fraud as recent as 2007.


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[Assistant] And that is the story of the murders of Elizabeth Congdon and Velma Piatila.


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[Assistant] Four people and never spent time in prison for murder. Wow.


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[Assistant] Poor Elizabeth, and poor Velma, and poor Velma's husband, and poor Helen, and like Roger Caldwell, I don't know about him.


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[Assistant] Yeah, not Roger. Not Roger. I mean, Thelma and Elizabeth.


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[Assistant] And Helen probably. Yeaah. Just really, really tragic case. She is a dangerous woman. Yeaah. Yeaah. Damn.


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[Assistant] Hey listeners, you need to know that Wondery's shocking True Crime podcast over My Dead Body is back for a fourth season, Gone Hunting. This newest season covers the story of Mike Williams. It was Mike's sixth wedding anniversary when he set off on a hunting trip into the gator-infested swamps of North Florida.


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[Assistant] He figured he'd be back in time to take his wife Denise out to celebrate. But he never came back.


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[Assistant] Friends and loved ones feared he met his fate through bad luck and a group of hungry alligators, leaving his young family behind. Except that's not what happened at all.


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[Assistant] And after 17 years, a kidnapping, and the uncovering of a secret love triangle, the truth would finally be revealed.


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[Assistant] Enjoy Over My Dead Body, Gone Hunting on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to Over My Dead Body early and ad free on Wondery+. Get started with your free trial at Wondery.com slash plus.


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[Assistant] You bitch. I might sneeze all over you or cough all over you. That's nasty. But yeah, that can be taken out in the post editing process. It can. Just know that I sneezed and coughed all over you. Blah, blah, blah, blah. We took it out. But yeah, so I'm trying to, I'm trying to muster up.


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[Assistant] My strength and energy right now, cause this is a...


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[Assistant] Pretty wild case that we're gonna be talking about. It's not like a, it's a, it's not one case, it's a...


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[Assistant] He's something. He is something. We're going to do this in two parts because I do want to talk about the Rosemary Kennedy lobotomy. That is so tragic. I mean, reading about that.


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[Assistant] Rocked my world. I remember, I actually didn't know about that until maybe I would say like five or six years ago when there was like some Kennedy special on the history channel. I never knew that and when they started going into it I was like,


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[Assistant] Oh my god. Oh, it's horrific what they did to that woman. It's horrific. Exactly. And then to think that that really wasn't that long ago. No, it really wasn't in the grand scheme of things. That's nuts. And that her own, it was her own father who really


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[Assistant] Really fucked her over there. Uh, but, I mean, it was both her parents, but.


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[Assistant] We'll get into that in part two. I want to start part two with that and like give it its due. Yea. Because it's quite a story and it's quite a lengthy story and it needs its own kind of moment there. Definitely. But we are going to begin by talking about Dr. Freeman himself and explaining where he came from.