[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So it was likely within a year after he and my mom went out into the best of our true crime buff community's knowledge, and we know quite a bit about this guy, but also startlingly little.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He didn't start killing until several years later, but we also know that he'd been a sexual sadist from a very, very young age.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, on the edge of what one day would be a flourishing affluent suburb just a few miles from downtown Portland, Oregon.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] My dad had gone to work that morning and mom slept in as was her routine. But when she got up and wandered down the driveway to get the Oregonian- Oregonian? Oregonian? Oregonian? Yeah. Well now I don't know. Shit.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And below that was a picture of the man she'd been alone with a time or two. She said she immediately fell apart. I don't blame her. And with no one else home, she ran across the street to the nearest neighbor who confronted her as she trauma cried. Or comforted her. Comforted her.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Clearly the very idea that she had been in such close contact with a man that could have ended her life, or at least have changed it dramatically, was she just more than what she, was just more than what she wanted to dwell on. It may also be that because of the era in which mom was raised, she carried some shame from the very fact that she went out with this monster, which is pretty fucked up.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] A very victim-blamey kind of vibe, super gross. Yeah. Or maybe it was even survivor's guilt because she made it out alive of the casual relationship they had.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So keep it weird, my friends, but not so weird that you innocently accept a date with a total monster and then carry a secret shame for 48 years. Never, ever, ever keep it that weird. Never. Damn. Wow, that was wild. Meredith. What a story.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Your parents were so cute. And he does look like Paul Newman. And your dad is a handsome movie star. Paul Newman type.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It's true. Like he was a charmer at first like they usually are and then when you find out who they really are you're like wow you suck.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, no. It's not a good situation. I think your mom made the best choice she could have. I think she should. She came out on top. She did. Yeah.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, you know? Like I would probably do what she did, which is just like burst into tears.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Of course, but like that's what survivor's guilt is at it's core is like something that you should never feel because you did nothing wrong but like you inherently feel. Because you're like, did I ignore a feeling? I feel like it would just be very confusing.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] If she was, if she went with that whole be nice to everyone.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So just vamp for a second. This happens every once in a while. We're like vamp until I put it in a PDF. Okay, we are good.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I was having a bad day and I was like, I was like, Mikey's dying cause I was like.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Alright, so my next one is Listener Tales Wanted Murderer Bought Me A Bikini.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] What's good, my spooky beaches? I've attached my listener tail in the form of a pud-a-fa, which is about the time I helped the police catch a murder in my hotel and the creepy shit that led up to that fateful day.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Alright, so this is the time I assisted a SWAT team in taking down a wanted murderer.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I am currently sitting on my couch at 11.30pm. Both my toddlers are sleeping and I am not. I feel that.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Why you ask? Because I have crippling ADHD that has made it literally impossible to turn my brain off. In between researching how cuttlefish camouflage themselves while also being colorblind, I've got Miss Rachel songs playing randomly in my head. If you know, you know. Deb Deb knows cause she loves Miss Rachel. Yea, and I know.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That's the thing with like, when you have like kids all day, you're like, I can't wait to sleep.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Alright, I was first introduced to your podcast while I was pregnant with my daughter. I was an avid listener of a different True Crime podcast, but was getting tired of how polite they were.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I listened to one of their episodes and was not satisfied with the information, so I went to the interwebs to find out if any other podcasts had covered it. Yours was the first one that popped up.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I pre-ordered Elena's book the day it was available. Thank you! And I listened to the entire thing in two days the day it was released. It was amazing and I'll definitely sign whatever petition gets you to write a sequel because Jeremy needs to get his comeuppance. Well don't worry, you don't need to sign a petition.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] There will be another one. Uh, and thank you, that's really cool to hear. My name is Hillary, and please use my name. After birthing two kids, I'd love to have a non-embarrassing reason to pee my pants. I feel that so hard.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] As customer facing jobs go, hotel front desk is by far the worst I've ever experienced as far as customer abuse goes. I can imagine. I hear that. I hear that a lot. Yeah.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] People, cause you also have to deal with the late night people. Yeaah. You know?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The whole thing started on a Monday, on a Monday evening. Two men came into the lobby and asked if we had availability. We had a few rooms open, so I booked them a room.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He mentioned that he didn't know how long he was going to need to stay. I let him know that we had availability that whole week and to let me know before checkout time whether he wanted to extend for another day or two. Totally typical walk-in.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Checked in with a legit credit card and legit ID using the name Paul Cunningham.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He was very charming. We carried on our conversation easily. I handed him his keys and he and his companion, who had been completely silent this whole time, walked up the stairs and went to his room.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, he came to the- I would be sent home like every day. Uh, he came to the front desk and made conversation while he drank his coffee.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It was a little friendlier than I was comfortable with, but it wasn't any different than the other weirdos I had dealt with. Just smiled and continued to talk.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] They led, we submitted. No matter what. That's awful. This led me into abusive relationships, one ending with a broken jaw and no will to live. Jesus.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It was easier to acquiesce. I love that word. Thank you for using that. That's a really good word. I haven't heard that word in a long time.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I think it's basically like acquiesce, like I'm just gonna, it was easier just to like submit almost, just to like put it out of your brain and just go with the flow. Okay.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I talk about it as the Caribbean. But Pirates of the Caribbean. It's funny. It's like Oregon and Oregon Trail. Yea. I don't know why.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Maybe I just said Caribbean when I went to say it without thinking. See Pirates of the Caribbean sounds insane to me.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I said that I hadn't, but quickly let him know that I was working basically back to back shifts and hadn't had time. God forbid I should offend him.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Very loaded. So he said he needed to take pictures and she said, oh for sure! I said with an extremely convincing customer service smile.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] After a couple hours of normal hotel stuff, check-ins, room changes, housekeeping requests, etc., I hear thhttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttt


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I couldn't see who it was but I looked in the big convex mirror we had in the corner of the lobby and saw that Creeps McGee was trying to get my attention in the mirror. He was motioning for me to come to him.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He looked over my shoulder a couple of times, like he wanted to make sure no one was watching. And from inside his boxers, he pulled out makeup.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] People got a whole face out of his boxers, and he said go, go forth. What the actual fuck. I saw these and thought you would like them, he said, almost sheepishly.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He didn't say he bought them. They weren't in a shopping bag, and they didn't have any plastic on them or wrapping to indicate that they hadn't been opened before. Again, this really weirded me out, but I accepted.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I was just glad he didn't ask me about the bikini pics. The rest of the night went by without incident. Wait, you know what I'm thinking.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Oi! On my next shift, which was the morning shift, I started my day with him extending his stay again.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I was too stunned to say anything, so I just looked at him wide-eyed.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The detective asked if he was here, and I just nodded. With his index finger, he scrolled up on the screen to reveal something that made my stomach fall out of my butt.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I felt all the blood drain from my face, and it must have been obvious because all the detective said was, which room is he in?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] At this point, the lead detective told me I needed to call him down to the front desk. I was like, uh, excuse me? If you don't get that reference, you need to watch Pitch Perfect immediately. He said that I just read it as it was a thing. I have not seen Pitch Perfect actually. I think Akka, excuse me, because like Akka Pella. I thought it was uh, excuse me, which I've never heard of.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He just motioned for me to answer it and so I did. I had no idea what I was going to say, but thankfully Creeps McGee asked if he was, if we had a business center with a computer he could use. I let him know that we had one in the lobby and he said he'd like, he'd see me in a second and hung up.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Sure enough, he came downstairs and crossed the lobby into the business center. I just smiled at him and pretended to click away on my computer.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Only moments later he came back out to ask for printer paper, and the officers swarmed with guns drawn.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] After searching his room, heroin, a box cutter, a hunting knife and two guns were recovered.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I asked the detective if they needed the things he had given me and they said that they didn't, which was almost disappointing because I felt like throwing away the things he gave me would be rude and that made me feel really guilty. Really, throw them out. Religious trauma is so real.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Thankfully my coworker recognized how insane that sounded and took them from me. We love it. I don't know what she did with them, but I'm sure they ended up in a parking lot dumpster.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I've attached a couple news articles along with his mugshot and the security footage of the actual takedown. Which we will be watching. Hell yea. Thanks so much for taking the time to tell my story. Keep being awesome and always keep it weird.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Especially the Abby's room. Yup, Abby's room.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Why? So there's these very, like, big camps of like, he did it, he didn't do it, or like, you know? I really got, uh, yeaah.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That's the thing. But maybe that's why. Maybe he thinks that, and it's like, either he's innocent and he's scared, that like, cause as we know, I mean look at the West Memphis Three, you can be completely innocent and still almost be put to death.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So it's like, maybe he's like, I don't know if I can prove this, or he's not, and he knows that they'll be able to prove it. He can't go anywhere.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Are you proud? Thank you. It's like so much fun. I love that. Like I just want to write books like all day every day. Easy. It's so much fun.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I have so many ideas for future ones too, that I'm just like eager to dive into. Thank you. It's very like cathartic. It's a really big catharsis.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I know, it's scary when you put like, when the book went out, so you have this weird dichotomy of feelings where you're like, I want everyone to read it, but I also am terrified for one person to read it. Like, it's literally like,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And keep it so weird that you keep telling us about when you do meet murders.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] We love Caleb. Yea. Who doesn't love Caleb? He's literally like our brother in. He's our bro-


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It's dead. She did the like hand across the neck. The visuals are hard around here.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, and like, you know, kids not missing school and stuff, but like, fuck, I wanna go on May Day.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, so follow Ryan Lill Washington, two L's and Ryan Lill, on Instagram.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Cause imagine if those boys had planned their hunting trip like days earlier. And it caught the person doing that? I wish they had. Cause maybe we would know. I'm nervous. Like, I'm kinda glad they didn't at the same time. Cause I'm like, what would have become of you?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I'm sure they- Yeah, they probably passed hands like so many times.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Maybe, I mean it's not like totally unthinkable, but there's just not enough.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, you do. I can't sing it right now because I have Florence and the machine stuck in my head, but we can just move past it.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I'll sing it to you later when I can't. You know when a song is stuck in your head and you can't get past it. I've literally never heard that in my entire life. You absolutely have. Papa loves that song.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And then it goes doo doo doo doo doo. I'm probably not doing a good job. Na na na na.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Well, I bet Ferguson did. You know, I'm sure he did. Just like maybe he didn't write down enough info.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, cause we don't know really much else about Dr. Knox and like what his hobbies were and things like that. Exactly.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] They're really creepy. The one that specifically terrifies me is wrapped up in like all white and the figure's eyes are still so prominent.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I think it's, I think it's definitely related to broken hair. I don't know who I believe did it, but I definitely think it's related.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The other thing that I can think of is that uhm, the guy who was involved in that one murder with them and that maybe that one coffin could represent that.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I was waiting for that part of the explanation.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] What a period right at the end of that sentence.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Maybe it was Beast. Maybe it was...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Every problem has an answer. There you go, that's part of Snoop Dogg's Affirmations.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Hey Prime members, you can listen to Morbid early and ad free on Amazon Music. Download the app today.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Oh my fucking god. Jonathan Van Ness was on the show today, people. Guys, this was such a fun episode.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yes, and the reason why uhm, we picked this specific case is because it was in Quincy, and Jonathan is from Quincy, so we were thinking like, oh, let's tell him about our Quincy.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] This is an extra special episode of Morbid! We have Jonathan Van Ness from Getting Curious, the podcast, or you could watch it on Netflix, and of course Queer Eye which is also on Netflix, and of like


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Every other human project that you could ever take on, uhm, as a human. Like, you learn to be a gymnast, you are a stand-up comedian, you're a hairdresser, you're a beautiful soul. You're also from our dreams. Welcome to the show.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But there's an episode of SpongeBob where they all enter each other's dreams and that's what's happening right now, right here today. This is also what happens every time


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And we were a family guy house. You were a family guy house, yea. I've seen, I've seen family guy house. But like I told you earlier, I only watch Bravo.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It's a lot. It's a lot of history. So Tom and Ariana got together back in like, what, 20? Nine years ago. Yeah, nine years ago. They've been together for nine years. They literally have a house together. Essentially common law married, right? That takes a, what, seven years? Yeah. I mean, they're for all intents and purposes. Tuh-ge-ther.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So, then this girl Raquel joins the show. Fun fact, her name is not even Raquel. Found out recently on the TikTok that her name is Rachel. So we're not calling her Raquel anymore, we're calling her Rachel. Because she's a dirty gal. Face that.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Like behind closed doors with Raquel, for seven months at least. I also just found out today, on Good Authority, that they spent Christmas together.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So, Ariana is sitting at Tom's show last Wednesday night because he also has a cover band called Tom and the Most Extras or something like that. He is extra.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And his phone slips out of his pocket. She grabs it off stage so he doesn't step on it. What a kind soul Ariana is.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] She's scrolling through the phone and she finds an inappropriate video of Raquel and then discovers


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] No, I'm just kidding. So Sheena is Ariana's best friend, but has also been friends with Raquel because she doesn't know what a dirty girl she is.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Sir. Sir. Or TomTom. TomTom. Or... TomTom. Okay, TomTom.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Right now, the season of Vanderpump Rules is airing, and everybody tried to make us think that Tom Schwartz and Raquel Rachel were hooking up.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Because we think that Tom Schwartz was covering for Tom's


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I don't even, like, what's the word? Like, defied two of her friends. Yeaah. And Ariana was like her best friend, one of her best friends.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I was gonna say, cause maybe it just takes a little longer. How long have the other two like been together and like having the kids and all?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Sad. It's really sad. And uhm, if you have a grandma that you love and you don't want to hear about an older person being murdered, then you should not listen to this. But if you're Elena or JVN, you don't have a choice, so...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So it all started on December 19th, 2001. Anthony Calabro returned home to the house that he shared with his great aunt Marina in Quincy, of course. Marina from Quincy.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Because obviously that's a pretty rational thought to have. Sadly, a lot of older people living by themselves can fall and hurt themselves and, you know, worse things can happen.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But just 10 months later, the authorities came to a very different conclusion. The scene had been staged, and Marina had been placed at the bottom of the stairs to make it seem like her death was an accident.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, it's pretty rough. So in time, detectives came to realize that her death had actually been orchestrated by her 19 year old great nephew, Anthony.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] With the help of his two teenage friends, he killed Marina and they staged a cover up in order to inherit the money that she was gonna leave him in her will. What shitbags. Always. It's always about money and the will. Always.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So the murder obviously completely shocked the residents of Quincy, and it left so many people wondering how three teenagers could brutally kill an 84 year old woman in cold blood.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That's the thing that's so scary that all three of them sat there one day and had that conversation and then had further conversations to plan the whole thing. It's like what?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So Marina really was well loved and her neighbors were especially surprised and obviously very disappointed when they found out that she had died.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] She was well known in town. She had retired in the mid-90s, but before that, she had been a fixture at the Marvel Beauty Salon, where she worked for over 40 years. Oh my god, Marina! A hairstylist like us.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now, when she retired, she focused all of her time on maintenance and upkeep of a multifamily duplex that she owned on Bedford Street.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And she had inherited that from her parents when they passed years earlier. So she really wanted to like, take care of this place.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Her neighbor told reporters she was a champ. Her lawn was always kept nice and even when it snowed she was out there shoveling.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now, Marina, she was a bad bitch. She did not let retirement slow her down at all. She kept in shape walking everywhere. She was constantly doing her own yard work like we know. And she just like wanted to do things around the house constantly. She was like a doer.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So people were shocked when they heard that she had slipped down the stairs. They were like, I don't know, she's in like really good shape and she's constantly doing stuff. Agile. Exactly. So they were confused.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But the medical examiner concluded that it was a straightforward case of blunt neck trauma from a slip and fall accident that had resulted in her death.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And that was all there was to it, he said. Until ten months later, when the authorities kinda started to grow suspicious of Marina's great nephew, Anthony.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now, in addition to the nonstop partying, there was kids coming and going at all hours, neighbors were noticing new cars and other luxury items being delivered to the house, Anthony even had a new puppy. Which like, what are you doing with a puppy in that environment?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That's like a dichotomy. Yeaah. That's a lot. It really is.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Which like, people are going to notice if you park a Corvette outside of a duplex in Quincy. And also like, really. Yea, like, really. He got big screen televisions, and this is a quote, more than $80,000 on military equipment, including grenade launchers for Ware, Lally, and himself. Those are his two friends. I'm sorry, what?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So nice. So she's so nice. Puts them in the will. Then they kill her, they're buying grenade launchers, and according to their friend Jim Morrill, I hope I'm saying that right, the boys had, quote, dreamed about becoming mercenary soldiers, which is what the whole grenade launcher was about, and now that they had the money, they were stockpiling weapons. At this point. Weird.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now Jim, he had spent three or four days a week at Anthony's house both before and after Marina had been killed.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But Jim's enthusiasm for the band and his friends, uhm, it took a serious nosedive in late October of that year.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, the thing that like really turned things on their side was when Anthony confided in him that they had all murdered Marina, the great aunt. Jim didn't really love that.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But Jim had questions. He was like, why did you kill great aunt Marina? Like, why would you ever do that? I would also have that question. And Anthony was like, yeah, like I can't just wait around for her to die of natural causes.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Oh my gosh. Like you're a disgusting human. Ew. You can't just wait around. He's a vile human. Why don't you spend time with her? Why don't you find out what she did in her life? Why don't you, uh, stop being a dick?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, right. Ask her about running this duplex. Well, and as we know, there are so many good stories in a salon, I can't imagine 40 years worth of salon stories. Coulda said something.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Anthony just told me, and the two of them went straight to the Quincy Police Department to make a report. To make a report, Ken. To make a report.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So, Jim worked with Quincy Detectives on a plan to get his friend's confession on tape.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Like in a scenario different than this where like somebody could potentially like feel you for a while.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So on the afternoon of December 19th, Anthony, Thomas, Lally, and Jason were, they drove to Marina's house and Anthony waited in the car with his dog, the one, the one that he already had, while the other boys went inside. So he couldn't even do this himself, by the way, which like, I'm kind of glad I guess, but I'm not glad at all because I hate all of it.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So Marina was out that day doing what Marina did. She was probably giving children candy.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, taking care of her lawn, just like being an amazing human being. And when she got home, she was surprised to find the two boys in her kitchen. And even more so when she saw that there was newspaper lying everywhere on the ground and all the surfaces.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The newspaper had been put down earlier because they decided it would soak up the blood.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now as she moved closer into the kitchen, she was met by Thomas Lally, who was holding a cast iron skillet that he had taken from the cabinet.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Marina was obviously terrified, so she was like, what are you doing with that? And he replied, this is what I'm doing with this. And brought the cast iron skillet down on her head with such force, this is a quote, that the handle broke off.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You're a 19 year old, this woman has lived her whole fucking life for you, you piece of shit and garbage to do this to her.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But there was blood coming down her face and she started screaming for Anthony. Oh my god. Completely unaware that he was outside in the car, knowing full well what was going on inside.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So she started screaming and he, Lali, grabs a yellow tea kettle from the stovetop and he beat her with that even after she fell to the ground.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And when she was down, he climbed on top of her and started to manually strangle her with his hands. But she was fighting back.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I don't think they were on drugs. I didn't read anything that said they were. Which makes it, like you were just saying, makes it worse. Ugh. It's awful. So five or so minutes later, Anthony entered the apartment, and this is fucking insane.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Walks over to his great aunt who had taken him in, put him in her well,


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[Assistant] Looked at her lifeless body on the floor and quote, gave a shrug before leaving the room. Just was like, mm.


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[Assistant] So before doing anything else, they thoroughly washed Marina's body. They were trying to get rid of any kind of evidence, but uhm, she had scratched Thomas's face.


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[Assistant] They carried her to the top of the stairwell and dumped her body down the stairs to make it seem like she'd fallen.


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[Assistant] So I think the medical examiner probably was like, oh, like, look, she fell down the stairs and like didn't look too much further.


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[Assistant] Right, exactly. But still, pre and post, like you were saying, it was gonna take time to wash her up and everything.


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[Assistant] So they did all of that, unbelievable. Later that day, they cleaned the apartment, they gathered up the bloody newspapers, and then they drove to Norton, where they dropped weir off at his parents' house, and Anthony and Lally went on to dispose of the frying pan and the tea kettle in a pond before heading back to Quincy.


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[Assistant] Now Anthony and Lally waited at the apartment until 11 o'clock at night and then called the police to report that Anthony had come home and found his beloved dear aunt like this. Wow.


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[Assistant] Police found out from the wire that uhm, that's exactly what had happened and they were all three arrested. So he was just like, yeaah. He told the whole story. Wow. Now, when it came time for the trial, all three of them actually pleaded not guilty, which I'm like,


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[Assistant] Honey, is that you on the wire? Because like we all heard that. Yeah.


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[Assistant] Now, Lally pleaded not guilty to first degree murder and conspiracy to commit murder. Anthony for first degree murder. Accessory before the fact to murder and conspiracy to commit murder.


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[Assistant] But all three trials actually were hung up for like years and years because of administrative and pre-trial matters, all that kind of stuff. Bullshit. Stupid stuff.


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[Assistant] But by March of 2006, all the respective hurdles had been cleared and Thomas Lally was the first to go on trial. Bye Lally. Bye.


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[Assistant] Now in his opening remarks, I have to laugh when I say this because it's Norfolk.


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[Assistant] Norfolk County District Attorney Robert Nelson. There's like no other way to say it. Yea, that's how you say it. It's Norfolk. Yea, Norfolk.


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[Assistant] Uhm, the district attorney Robert Nelson, he told the jury about how the boys had planned the murder months in advance. So this was months in advance they planned this. They developed a strategy after visiting websites and watching TV shows about how to get rid of forensic evidence.


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[Assistant] And according to Norton, Calabro Anthony there and the other boys


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[Assistant] Did this because they were, they thought they were going to inherit more than 700,000 when Marina died.


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[Assistant] And they would split, they said that Anthony told the boys they would split it evenly. It's like number one.


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[Assistant] I don't know who you think you are, like you're not getting $700,000, and clearly he's not gonna split it equally with you. No, of course he's not. And also, that's sweet Aunt Marina, what the fuck are you doing? Yeah.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now in exchange for their participation, Weir was expecting a $28,000 pickup truck and Lally thought he was going to get his amount in cash. But at the end of the day,


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[Assistant] And Lally got somewhere between 8 and 10,000 because he had been the one to do everything. Wow.


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[Assistant] But now the good thing, well, it's like a good and bad thing, but it works out because the evidence against Lolly, it was largely circumstantial, but it was just circumstantial, excuse me, but it was still significant. When the police arrived at Anthony's house on the night of the murder, they actually had noted, which I'm like,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You noted this and you still said that it was not a murder? They noticed that he had scratches on his face and a bite mark on his arm.


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[Assistant] And they asked him about it that night actually, and he said he got them during a fight with Anthony earlier that day.


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[Assistant] Later on, they ended up searching Lolly's home and they found scraps of the newspapers that had been laid out.


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[Assistant] And Jim was able to direct them to the pond where they had dumped the cast iron skillet in the tea kettle.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So, the most damning was the testimony from Jason Weir. He actually agreed to testify against Lally.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] In exchange for a reduced charge, uh, he was gonna get manslaughter with a maximum sentence of 10 years.


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[Assistant] So on the stand, we are admitted to being in the apartment and he said he may have tried to restrain Marina and actually even handed Lali the pillow that was what killed her, but it was Thomas who had struck her with all those blows that had killed her.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But yeah, so he said that. And then he told the jury in the days leading up to the murder that Lally had made several comments to suggest that he was actually excited about going through with this.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And that afterwards, Ware was so scared to report the crime because of all of that.


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[Assistant] And he, uh, he feared retaliation from Lally. And that's why he didn't tell anybody.


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[Assistant] So arguing in Lali's defense, a turn which like,


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[Assistant] I don't know how you do that. Attorney Robert Griffin told the jury that the police and the prosecutor had, prosecutor excuse me, had gotten everything wrong. He said, Jason Ware is the one who killed Marina Calabro. Uh, no.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But he told the jury that the DNA evidence collected at the scene was not a match for Lally, who had simply gone along with his friends.


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[Assistant] He was not the mastermind. Anthony was. And he was not the murderer. Jason was. Oh, he just, he had nothing to do with it. Exactly. So finally, Thomas Lally there took the stand for himself in his own defense, and he told the jury that it was Jason Weir who had killed the woman.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] God. They were like, okay, okay, okay, sounds good. And then they deliberated for five hours. And when they came back, they found Thomas Lally.


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[Assistant] And then the Norfolk District Attorney, there was a lot of emphasis on that there, sorry. Uhm, he said that he was satisfied with the outcome, but he quote, remained troubled by the savagery of her death, which is like the same.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Very savage. Now, it seems like Thomas Lally's conviction definitely put some fear into Anthony.


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[Assistant] Because in June of 2006, just a couple months after, Lally was sentenced.


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[Assistant] Anthony ended up changing his tune, and he decided that he was going to be pleading guilty to the second degree murder of his great aunt. Please. It's like, mm, first of all, you planned it.


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[Assistant] He cried before the court. He said he played a role in her death.


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[Assistant] And he said, I'm disgusted with myself. I'm disgusted with my lack of app action and attempting to stop it or anything else for that matter.


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[Assistant] And also like to stop it, like you continued even after she died, you divvied out her money to your friends who you had hired to kill her.


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[Assistant] Now because of his deal, Jason Weir pleaded guilty to manslaughter and was sentenced to 10 years with credit for the four years already served while he was awaiting trial.


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[Assistant] Now for a little tea though. In July of 2006, after all three cases had been settled, it was discovered that the, uh, Norfolk County prosecutor, Susan Cochran,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Oh shit. She got fired for that. Damn. Now in January of 2022, Anthony was granted parole.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Probably because there's no old ladies to kill. The parole board felt that he had been rehabilitated and was a suitable candidate for parole. And they specifically cited his participation, quote, in numerous prison programs, including one called Alternatives to Violence. It's like, well, I'm glad he participated in that.


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[Assistant] And it's like, if you're gonna kill somebody you know that brutally, like, I mean, he didn't do the killing, but he like set it all up. You can do that for someone you love. What are you capable of? For somebody you don't know.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now according to the terms of his parole, he'll be released to a minimum security facility and he was going to stay there for a year and then after that he would be released, quote, on a home plan that would include a curfew and electronic monitoring. So we have that to settle our stomachs.


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[Assistant] Now in May of 2022, so pretty recently, Jim Morrill's story of being a voluntary undercover agent on behalf of the Quincy Police Department was featured on the Discovery Channel series, I Went Undercover. And the series producer told the Patriot Ledger, this series is all about regular people taking great risks and going undercover.


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[Assistant] When we heard about Jim's story and his bravery, it was a natural fit for the series.


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[Assistant] So yeaah, that is the story of two, three actually fucking crazed individuals. Three pieces of shit. Who murdered sweet, sweet Marina. Marina. May she rest in peace.


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[Assistant] But my god, it's gorgeous. We're gonna have to watch it together when Drew goes away. Okay? Oh yeah. Okay.


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[Assistant] Alright guys, well that was our episode with JVN, I'm very sad that it is over, but with all that being said, we hope you keep listening, and we hope you keep it.


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[Assistant] He's providing information that hadn't even been released to the news yet.


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[Assistant] We're back and we're better than ever. That's right, and I'm not snarfing and coughing as much as I was. We love that. So this is new and Ash is back, she was only gone for one, but that's fine. Yea, did you miss me? Did you miss her? Oh no, I was asking you. Oh I did, of course. Did you miss me? Good. But I had Caleb to talk about cryptids with.


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[Assistant] No, cause I know what you mean though, cause it's like, whenever you hear that the public was in this outrage and everybody was freaking out and it's like, there was all this pressure.


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[Assistant] One is just turning on your windshield wiper, maybe getting some new windshield wiper fluid because you used a little bit too much. The other one is getting an entirely new windshield.


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[Assistant] Imagine coming in every day to work. No. And you have to deal with like, you're like, I don't know what's going to happen today. Like, you know what I mean? And not in a good way.


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[Assistant] Like you gotta, there's a very specific person that will weigh the, the risk, the cost and, cost and reward here. Yea, a little pro and con list. Like somebody just got beaten so badly that their front two, their two front teeth are gone.


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[Assistant] I'm Ash. And I'm Elaina. We host the hit show Morbid. Normally we focus on what happens in the lead up to death. But this time, it's about what happens next.


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[Assistant] Jill Evans has it all, a big house, fast car, and a great career as a decorated police sergeant


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[Assistant] That is, until she connects online with a charming, handsome, and successful man named Dean Jenkins. From the outside, there may be some red flags, but Jill doesn't care. He's the one. And just six months in, Jill finds out she's pregnant, and they make plans to spend the rest of their lives together.


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[Assistant] But the night after Halloween, Jill receives a shocking text that will change everything. And what she reads threatens to take away her dreams of happiness, her career, and maybe even her freedom.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Wandering Novel's new podcast, Stolen Hearts, tells the intricate love story of Jill and Dean, and how opposites really do attract.


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[Assistant] Follow Stolen Hearts on Amazon Music or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey Prime members, you can binge the entire series ad free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I keep picturing him as Thomas Shelby and that would mean that he would just always smell, like he would always smell cigarettes coming. Cause Thomas Shelby is a chain smoker. They all are. Like literally that entire show is just cigarettes. Like all, all the show.


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[Assistant] For like a peaky. I would think. Where they're liter- I mean they are- that's-


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[Assistant] Yeah, as soon as you said it, I was like, skeetal. Skeetal. Oh, I miss skeetal.


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[Assistant] Someone who will not be intimidated, we pick you. I'd be like, ugh. I'd be like, oh my god. Okay. I would pick you.


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[Assistant] I was going to say, honestly at the end of this, like, ice cream is a very


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Oh yeaah, it's always good when you come up with the story before you have any evidence. That's, that's fine work. Fine investigatory work.


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[Assistant] Huh. They're like, oh, they're like, oh, you forgot something. Yeah.


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[Assistant] Did you forget that you also did the, oh yeaah, yeaah. Okay, okay, okay. Just go back and say what we said. Now you said that this person tied the rope. Did you mean that you actually tied it? Yea, you did, right? That's it.


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[Assistant] So massive and so everywhere and leeching into every part of everything. Yeah. But when you really think about it, I'm sure there were most people around that were like, what?


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[Assistant] Alright, what a statement. I swear on my mother's life that I had


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[Assistant] I don't think, I still think they're gonna get convicted. You do? Yeah. Okay. Cause I think there's like a greater play at, at work here. Correct.


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[Assistant] I did not foresee all of that. No one did. I did not.


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[Assistant] I didn't know what I foresaw, but I did not foresee that.


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[Assistant] It does sound like that is, like, that must be like a thing, like you light the door on fire. Right. Kinda thing, and it just seems like it was just bad luck.


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[Assistant] Hey Prime members, you can listen to Morbid early and ad free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today, or you can listen ad free with Wondery Plus and Apple podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey at Wondery.com.


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[Assistant] It's morbid and we're waiting on some chilies. That's what I have for you today. We got chilies for lunch.


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[Assistant] But no, my favorite three podcasts right now that I'm listening to like week to fucking week, I'm like I need it, give me it, it's Oxygen, Watch What Crappens, as always, Girls Next Level, as always these days, and Giggly Squad. There you go. So fucking good. And it's nice.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Alena gets into my car and she goes, dreams aren't what we think they are. No, they're not.


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[Assistant] But like, be prepared to be scared. Yeaah. Cause that's a disheartening experience.


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[Assistant] Try focusing on a few things that will allow you to feel more balanced, confident, energetic, and with care of, you get a routine of products and digital tools to help you feel better than ever. All you have to do is take a short, in-depth quiz about your lifestyle, health goals that you have for yourself, for a personalized, doctor-backed recommendation.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Which totally takes the guesswork out of what supplements are best suited for you. This quiz is really helpful, I personally took it. All the questions are obviously about you, so they're easy to answer. Do you work out? What's your diet like? Do you have any allergies? Simple.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And then they're gonna suggest some products for you, and you're gonna pick which ones you'd like. I actually just started getting a new powder from K.A.R.R.O.V.E. that I am OBSESSED with. It's a creamer, which I never even thought they had.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Really good. I love it. I 10 out of 10 recommend Care Of and everything they have to offer. For 50% off your first Care Of order, go to takecareof.com and enter code morbid50. Again, that's 50% off your first Care Of order. Go to takecareof.com and enter code morbid50.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. When you're at your best, you can do great things, but sometimes life gets you bogged down and you're probably feeling overwhelmed or like you can't show up in the best way that you want to. But working with a therapist can help you get closer to the best version of you and you know it's there somewhere because when you feel empowered, you're more prepared to take on everything that life throws at you. When I feel like I'm my best self, I'm like going to the gym in the morning, I'm


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] If you want to live a more empowered life, therapy can get you there. Visit betterhelp.com slash morbid today and get 10% off your first month. That's better help.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] When it comes to personal hygiene, who has the time to read that long list of ingredients on the back of the bottle? Some ingredients I literally can't even pronounce. If you're like me and you care about what goes on your body, then it is time to try native personal care products just like I did.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Every native product is thoughtfully formulated to keep you feeling and smelling fresh all day long. Native keeps their ingredients list bare naked with ingredients that you actually understand. Native also offers a variety of scents with new limited edition scents being released all the time.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] When you use Native, you will smell amazing all day long thanks to their long-lasting scents. Native has a scent option for literally everybody. Right now, I'm really into the cashmere and rain smell. It's just a very, very clean scent. For my body wash, I do the wild wood and cardamom. It is a really like musky smell. I really like it.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now is the time to make the switch from an antipresperent to native.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] When you visit their site, you can discover all their fresh scents and maybe even try out one of their body washes while you're at it. I was just telling you, I really like mine. I use their body wash and I use their deodorant and I have tried almost every scent and I really haven't found one that I didn't like.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Smell and feel fresh all day long with native. Get 20% off your first order by going to nativedo.com slash morbidpod or use promo code morbidpod at checkout. That's native deo.com slash.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I'm nervous about this church, cause every time you keep saying the church's name, your eyes do this weird thing that says to me, Ashkel, remember that church.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Like almost, like, you know? He was enjoying the fact that her sister had to play to this.


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[Assistant] I'm, I'm, I'm here. I'm ready. I'm ready for part two. I think we should record it right now. Sorry everybody else. I think we're going to. Oh my god.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You know, what's gonna, what's funny is like by the time this comes out, who knows how many more are going to be shot out of the sky because like that's the trouble with like the week ahead thing is like we're kinda off the current events a little bit but you know.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] We're getting there, we're catching up. So who knows, by the time this comes out, we could be under full alien attack, and that's interesting.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] A new fear has been unlocked, that there is now UFOs in the way of planes.


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[Assistant] Let's go. You smell good. Let's go to planet Guambo. I'll go. Let's go there.


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[Assistant] I'll do most things. I won't do most things, but I will, uhm. I'll do a lot of things. I'll tell you stories.


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[Assistant] Aliens. Mmhm. Tails. I think I am an alien, so. Yea, I think you are too, so. Maybe momma's coming to get me. I think that's great.


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[Assistant] I love my little bubble, so like I want that to stay. But in the grand scheme of things, I'm like, there are days.


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[Assistant] We don't know these, we don't know these people, these things. They could come down here and just be like, ugh, we're gonna Marie Kondo this planet of yours, we're gonna spark joy. We don't, like, you guys suck.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You're all fucking miserable. Like, I think that's part of the problem. We are collectively right now.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Fucking miserable. We're all just angry, nasty little shitheads being nasty to each other. I'm not saying everybody, you know what I mean. But like, as a population here,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I think the pandemic really shot that off, that proved that we cannot handle even that kind of inconvenience and it's like, I think maybe they'll come down and they'll be like,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Okay, it's time to tidy up. It's a loud airplane going by. That is a loud airplane and I apologize for that.


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[Assistant] Just breathe. I didn't see it. I didn't see it. I'm not gonna stress. I'm gonna stress it up here. Here's a theory though. I'm gonna take it one day at a time. I'm gonna appreciate every second I have.


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[Assistant] That's an absolutely valid theory because we have no fucking clue what's going on, so that-


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, I mean like, it feels like it might be, uh, slightly thicker.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That I don't know. I do not know, but- I wish we had an expert here today. I wish we did. Maybe we should just get an expert UFO-ologist on here.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, and you know what, uhm, let's try to get Henry on here. That'll be our next move is to get Henry and we'll talk about UFOs. Uhm, but true crime.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The kids are all right. The kids are all right. We're just, you know, people be people in. So that's just like how we are. But you know what? I woke up this morning, and I said, huh, huh.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I feel good. Like I feel like that nasty cloud is trailing behind me now.


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[Assistant] Like I feel like January and like part of February, I was like, get the fuck out of here. And it did. It was like, all right, bye. And it left. And now I woke up this morning and I was like,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But then, just when I was like, you know, and I was like, okay, like we're going okay, but then it got ratcheted up a notch because Ghost is coming back to the United States this year and I am so excited! She's shitting a dick.


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[Assistant] So that was an exciting thing and I felt like it was, it kicked off a good, a good day. It really did. I'm feeling good about it. It really did, I agree with you. But today, even though it's a good day, it's no UFO, all ghosts day, that we know of. I'm gonna take you


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And this is going to be a tupada, kids. Tupada. It's a big case. I want to give you time to digest the beginning.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I know him. Yeaah, I know him. I've seen him. Ah yeaah, unfortunately. If you look up this case online, I just want to put it out to you, there are crime scene photos, so I just want to


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Give you a little warning that if you're like Harvey Glatman and then you just go to images you're gonna see, at least, like, they're disturbing in a different way. Okay.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, because his photos, he would take photos of them like...


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[Assistant] Before, during, after. So there's some, there's some very strange ones. I just wanted to warn you guys just in case. Because I know I like to look up pictures while I listen to something.


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[Assistant] As we all do. But not like in those pictures. Yes. So Harvey Glatman, like I said, the Glamour Girl Slayer, he was known to be active in Los Angeles from the summer of 1957 to 1958. Not long. But in that time he caused an unimaginable amount of damage.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, he kidnapped and murdered women and then dumped their bodies in the LA desert. And he was only caught when a would-be murder victim named Lorraine Vigil managed to escape his car.


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[Assistant] I said escaped, I'm not really sure why. Escape his car and run to a nearby police patrol unit for help. Damn. Yeah.


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[Assistant] So, Gladman had a long history of really disturbing behavior, even in childhood. Uh, and I'm gonna go through all that, don't worry. But, having committed his crimes before, you know, the FBI's behavioral science unit really became a thing, and at the time there was really no one who was understanding or really studying serial killers and their psychology. At the time, he really didn't get a nickname.


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[Assistant] He got a nickname, but it wasn't for what he was doing at the time.


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[Assistant] While he was active, he wasn't even really like a big name in the press, which is concerning.


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[Assistant] What's interesting about this case is that even in the mid to late 2000s, detectives discovered new Glatman victims.


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[Assistant] So let's talk about Harvey Glatman as a child because


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] My goodness, there were signs. Yeah. So Harvey Gladman was born in the Bronx, New York on December 10th, 1927. What is he? A Sagittarius? September what? 10th.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] We just fucked each other up. We did. I think you're right, I think that's Sag. Yeah, I think so. But Harvey was born to Albert and Ophelia Gladman. I love the name Ophelia. I do too. So cute.


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[Assistant] The couple had met two years earlier when they were working together at the Instructo Millenary Supply. I like that. Instructo.


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[Assistant] Financial risk at the time, especially as they were growing their family too, but we'll see how it goes.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now in the early years of his life, Ophelia, his mom, referred to her son as quote, apparently a healthy normal child. I love the apparently here.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He was apparently pretty healthy, like I don't know. Apparently! Like you were in charge of that. So like apparently before all of that is a little concerning. Maybe she means like he appeared to be, but what lurked beneath the surface. But then Ophelia herself began noticing Harvey engaging in


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] This is very graphic by the way. It just gets a little weird in here. When Harvey was three or four years old.


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[Assistant] He would. I'm so upset. And I'm going to quote.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He would tie a string around his penis, place the loose end in a drawer, then lean back against the string.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] This was in the fifties, so this is a very different...


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[Assistant] Even now you'd be like, whoa, I don't know what to do with that, but you would call someone. In the fifties...


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[Assistant] Embarrassment was a big thing, keeping like that was a taboo thing, we don't talk about that. And by the way, a lot of, there was a really good source that Dave actually found. His name, the author's name is Michael Newton, and it's called Rope, The Twisted Life and Crimes of Harvey Gladman.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It's a really good book, we're gonna link it in the show notes, I just wanted to say a lot of these quotes come from that book. Okay.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, so that was a little strange. Ophelia did admit, like, that was probably a little unusual, that behavior a tad bit. But at the time, she was thinking, okay,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Kids go through weird phases where they're curious about their genitalia and like.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You're always gonna wanna explain something like that away. Yeah, especially like, especially when it's your kid. So yeah, it's just like, you gotta look at it like, you know, kids are weird.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, so you gotta take all that into account. But there does come some more later that I'm like.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah. By all accounts though, outside of that situation, Harvey's life was like pretty normal at home. Like there wasn't anything going on. It was pretty in line with that of his peers at the time.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, he was an only child, so his mom kinda doted on him as much as possible, while Albert, his father, was the one to be kinda the primary disciplinarian.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] There wasn't any straight up abuse in the household.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He was just a strict dad at the time. He was also very disapproving of Harvey's chronic masturbation issue.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Well, you know, that he seemed to develop very young. Uh, he told Harvey that it was going to cause him to get acne if he continued doing it. I think maybe more like erectile dysfunction later in life. I don't know about acne. But I think it's like the hairy palms thing.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] What is that? I think that's like a religious thing that like if you masturbate you're gonna get hairy palms. That's hilarious. Yeah, like I think that's a thing. Is it like P-S-A-L-M-S? P- what is it?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, it's, I think that's what it was, it was just like, probably back then, it was very common to tell your kid, like, don't jack off or you're gonna get acne or something like that.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] My mom says like don't lie or your tongue's gonna turn. Exactly. It's just one of those things. And of course, you know,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He was the primary disciplinarian, like I said, but it wasn't abuse, but it was a 50s household.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Beaten brutally or something like that, you know what I mean? But who knows? Because there isn't a ton known about his early life, so. Yeah.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I'm Ash. And I'm Elaina. We host the hit show Morbid. Normally we focus on what happens in the lead up to death. But this time, it's about what happens next.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Follow Frozen Head wherever you get your podcasts. Hey Prime members, you can binge the entire series ad-free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Incident with his sexual self-exploration there.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But then it started to get more frequent. Okay. And it started to become slightly masochistic. And again, you do you. Literally. But.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] This is like a very small child, that's concerning. Yeah. Uhm, by the time he was four years old.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Then looping the other end over a pipe or a board in the rafters, holding it tight and masturbating at the same time. So at four years old, he was performing autoerotic asphyxiation.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] How did he even, and that's like, how did he even know how to do that? Exactly. And I am not accusing anybody of sexual abuse or, you know, physical abuse, I'm just saying


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Who knows? It could be somebody outside of the family. Absolutely, but like something had to have been going on somewhere. Yea, like how did he just come up with that? A four year old doesn't come up with that. No, that's the thing. So it's very strange. And as that Michael Newton book points out, that goes far beyond the typical


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Curiosity, that a four year old or any of that age group would have, with that kind of stuff, cause again, curiosity is a thing, it can come off a little strange when they're little. Yeaah. But that's way beyond. And that's the one that I'm like, ahh. Yeaah, that's like, adult behavior. Maybe you should call Ghostbusters here, like I don't know, call someone.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now, yeaah, it's, and actually he points out that this is a common thing that you would see, this kind of, uh, potentially injure, like injuring.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] No one says that he was sexually abused. He does not say he was sexually abused. His parents obviously don't.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I think he later does, like his crimes are very sexual in nature.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But neither, like I said, Harvey didn't report being abused in the home, sexually, physically, nothing. His parents didn't. But.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] This again was the 50s, so if he was being abused by someone outside of the home or in the home for that matter, silence would have been kind of par for the course.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Again, a lot of people go their whole lives and they don't say a word. And could have been repressed also. Exactly. It can be any number of things.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, but also at this time, when he was young, Albert and Ophelia were spending tons of time at the store they had opened, like 12 hours a day, 7 days a week kind of thing, so he was left to his own devices a lot.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Like a babysitter? Like he would have a babysitter, but like also he was just kind of left to like roam around. Okay. So it's like.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But it's very interesting. Now in, uh, 1938, the Glatmans actually moved to Denver, Colorado. And this was because of what Ophelia referred to as increased economic activity.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] They really couldn't do a lot with that stationary shop and they ended up having to close it down. Huh.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So he, uh, Albert ended up getting a job driving a taxi cab in Denver. And Ophelia actually got a job at a local hat shop to make ends meet. So it didn't look like they were like thriving. They weren't like at the bottom.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Harvey also said that he remembers several times one or the both of his parents catching him masturbating.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And he said it was very disturbing to his father in particular. You would think. His father used to be very upset about it and apparently his father had become convinced that this behavior was evidence of his son being queer. Now it's important to note this could be


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Any number, like, the term queer has so many meanings. In the 50s especially, could also be him saying strange, quote unquote.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Who knows, that's never distinguished between, so I don't know. Either way, he thought it was evidence of something that he deemed to be off. Okay.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So unlike the first incident of unusual, uh, psychosexual behavior, we'll call it when he was four years old, that swollen neck and rope burns on Harvey's neck, that got everybody finally moving. Yeaah.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] This is when everybody was like, we gotta find professional help here. So Albert and Ophelia took him to the family physician.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Who uhm, did the best that he could do by just prescribing him some pills.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Here, do some cocaine about it. Just do some cocaine about it. Here's some methamphetamine, that'll do the trick. You have ghosts in your bloodstream, just do some cocaine about it. Uhm, he also, you know, he was like, here's some pills.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, he'll just grow out of this very normal behavior.


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[Assistant] Completely, and the doctor probably just didn't want to deal with it at the time, like this is not a time where, or didn't even know how to, because like, what was, he probably was nowhere near.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] We're like educated in that way to be dealing with this kind of.


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[Assistant] Several specialists involved here, and he just didn't get it.


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[Assistant] But that's where he was. I was like, I'm so confused. I know because when I saw it I was like, wait what? But yea, that's what it was. But he was actually a great student. He excelled.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] At the very least, he was doing like average in school, but he was really above and beyond for most part. It was social skills that he struggled with.


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[Assistant] Kids made fun of him a lot. They made fun of him for acne. They said he had buck teeth and overdeveloped ears. He did have very large ears. Which later in life we can make fun of him all we want. Yeah, totally. Because he's a piece of shit.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And because of all this, Harvey had developed a very deep fear of being around girls at this point.


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[Assistant] Uh, because he felt very inadequate whenever he was in their presence.


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[Assistant] This isn't shocking considering the bullying and the underdeveloped social skills. Of course he was going to be scared around girls. But Ophelia later reported that he was so uncomfortable around women and girls that even later he would cross the street to avoid even passing one on the sidewalk. Wow, that's prime time fear. Yeah, I'm like, I don't think that's, uh,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I'd be like, wow, I can do anything. Yeah, it's really wild. But when he wasn't in school, he was actually in the Boy Scouts. He worked a part-time job. He was a delivery boy. And then he actually worked as a laboratory assistant, which I was like, oh.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, he played music with this little band for a little while. His whole, you know, his life while he was dealing with some bullying.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Again, pretty unremarkable, not huge things happening, it's really just that behind the scenes.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Psychosexual behavior that's happening with himself essentially right now.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But it's just not being taken care of. If it was being taken care of, I wonder what would have happened. I know. Because it just like, right now he's just doing it with himself. But then he takes it out into the world.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And the fairly normal outside world comes crashing down. Sure does. Harvey's criminal career began at age 12.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yep, that was the first year that he was enrolled in Sherman Elementary and it began with what he referred to as creeping.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Which involved him breaking into apartments and just like stealing little items. Uh, he once stole a 26 caliber revolver.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah. And you know what, this just makes me think again that


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] If you're looking for a TikTok follow for good self defense and like really good tips, that pure power I think his name is on TikTok.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And he has like a whole like Amazon storefront where he puts things like items that he feels are really good for self-defense and for protection and home security. He's just like a really good follow. Hell yeaah. He's very comforting. He gives updates. I think he's uhm,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He's a police officer, a former detective. Oh, okay, I know who you're talking about. He works with crimes against children. Yep, yep, yep. So like, I love him. Yeah. And he's just, he's really good to follow for like updates on cases, like the Idaho case and everything that's going on. He just gives like real


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Him and this girl. Sinister babe. Well, sinister babe, of course, but there's another one. I just love giving you recommendations. Let's blow these tick rockers up.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, Horror Chronicles on TikTok. She gives horror movie recommendations. She's fucking awesome at it.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Look, look, look. So yea, that's a little side tangent. We might all get blown up. Let's just, yea, you know, UFOs are coming. But let's, let's blow these people up and get them some, get them some bag before that happens.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, so he's stealing these items, he's doing this for the thrill of it. And at first he was like, I just did it for the thrill of it, but


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He brought it out of thrill behavior and into violent behavior pretty quick.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Force her into her bedroom, gag her with a claw while tying her arms with rope. Yush.


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[Assistant] And other times he would unbutton their shirts and skirts to assault them. Eww. And then just leave them.


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[Assistant] So like, escalationstation.com. Like you, that wasn't taken care of when it should have been taken care of and now we have this.


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[Assistant] So by the time he'd completed his sophomore year of high school in 1944, he had really become bold with this behavior.


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[Assistant] He's getting worse and worse and he's getting away with it. He'd stolen another gun from another apartment that he broke into and would use that to threaten women on the streets. He would pull them into like alleys and shit and force them into undressing or giving him cash.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] What the fuck. He had also taken up photography on the side. I was gonna say, I knew that came into play at some point. And I know that sounds random, but it will, it will matter later. Yeah. Uh, ick, yick. Very ick, yick. Um, but yeah, he would, so now he's using these guns that he's stolen, and it's only women.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Like he's got a thing with women and it's like, what the fuck is going on? Then the very next year in May 1945, he was actually caught by the Denver police as he was attempting to break into the apartment of a single woman.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] When the officers turned out his pockets, they discovered a long piece of rope and a pistol.


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[Assistant] Yeah, they're not, Ophelia and Albert are not helping. I just need to put that out there. Harvey's parents were very much in denial. Very much.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It is sad. No one wants to believe their child is like this, but I also want to be like, now's that hindsight that you need to look back on those other things and be like, yeah, something's wrong and we need to get him help. But again, the time period makes it a little more difficult so I can understand. It's just like we're looking at it through a 2023 lens. It's frustrating. It's very frustrating.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] They just couldn't or wouldn't recognize what was happening here, even though at this point it's like right in front of them.


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[Assistant] Like girl, look up your definition of molest. That is what's so sad about this, is it's like she is fully sitting there being like, what?


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[Assistant] And if you've taught him that that is not harming someone, has he gone through something and he just doesn't, he didn't realize that that's what that was? Because he's been taught that?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] By late spring of 1945, all the creeping...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So Harvey approached Noreen Laurel on a Denver, uh, street corner, excuse me, and he approached her, he flashed her the pistol at her like he had done a bunch of other times, and he told her to come along with him quietly.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Once he had her in the back, in the back, uh, excuse me, once he had her back at the car, is what I meant to say, Harvey tied her hands with rope and demanded that she get in the car.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] She had to get in, and at that point he drove her out to Sunshine Canyon in the western part of the city.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And what happened there is kind of unclear. But Harvey later said that he removed her clothes and assaulted her.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And that the two had only, quote, laid down together all night. Yeah, I bet. That's about right.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So they showed Noreen a series because he was breaking into an apartment to literally assault someone with all that shit.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So they showed Noreen a series of mug shots and she immediately identified Harvey as the man who abducted her and driven her out to Sunshine Canyon. Right. Harvey was arrested later that afternoon for the charge of molesting women and then released pending trial. Wow. Just released. Imagine.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So Dr. J.P. Hilton was the psychiatrist that they took him to. He was made very aware of Harvey's history of very unusual sexual behavior.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, like please say more. Uhm, but he actually diagnosed Harvey with schizophrenia.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But he offered absolutely no treatment option or any more information other than recommending that he just plead not guilty by reason of insanity.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Because, you know, because he's insane. Cause they, they kind of almost admitted the parents that like they only took him to the psychiatrist to help with the legal troubles. Yeah, it sounds like, well it sounds


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It's no surprise that after that, on September 30th, 1945, Harvey was arrested again. Wowee. I know. Unfortunately, this time, we don't know a lot about the charges of this arrest. Because remember, this is the 40s. But it's unknown whether there was no bail set or whether his parents didn't have the resources to bail him out this time.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Saying quote, there's evidence of anxiety, but emotions are well controlled. Practically no fantasy life is evident. And the prison psychiatrist concluded, I feel this boy is probably a psychoneurosis compulsive or anxiety type without much depression.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He got paroled after serving just eight months of the one year mandatory sentence and was released July 27th, 1946.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Makes me crazy. By the way, in later interviews with the press, Ophelia said Harvey was seen by another psychiatrist upon release from prison. Why can't I talk today?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You know, it's the first day that I feel alive and I can't speak. Um, but yeah, another psychiatrist saw him when he was released from prison and his treatment recommendations included a trip out of state,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Dance lessons to make him stop kidnapping and sexually assaulting women.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Or imagine going to your psychiatrist and being like, Hi, I just got out of prison because I kidnapped and sexually assaulted a woman on the street with a pistol. And that psychiatrist is like,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] No. I think that will be fine. You know what, you can use more confidence when you abduct and assault women. Yikes. What the fuck about him says that he doesn't have confidence. He's literally abducting women and forcing himself upon them. That has a certain air of I get to do what I want to do about it.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Everyone around him is like, you know, it's, it's very incel thinking. Like it's very, and his, and his family and everyone around him are just right along with it. They're all like, yeah, it's the women's fault. Like maybe if they were nice to him, he wouldn't have to be a fucking murderer. And it's like, I don't think that's right.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] What the fuck? Like, oh, okay, yeah, that works. Crosshatch. Thanks. So of course, Ophelia, ever the doting mother, took Harvey to New York, hoping the change of scenery would maybe help.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Here son, here's some New York girls to abduct. Yeah, here's a whole other population for you to attack. Great! Uh, it didn't.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] No, he very shortly after arriving in New York bought a pocket knife and a cap gun that looked very real and assumed, resumed his whole creeping thing.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Harvey approached two young women on the street in Yonkers and flashed a gun at them. He told them to be silent and he wouldn't hurt them.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] One of the women luckily screamed her fucking head off and drew the attention of a man nearby who ran to them and screamed at Harvey. He was like, I'm going to fuck you up. Thank God for Goodman. Harvey ran off into the night, scared the shit out of him, but it didn't scare him too badly.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Because shortly later, the same evening after midnight, Harvey was out once again prowling in the same exact area.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] This time he came upon Thomas Starow and Doris Thorne, who were just out together for a late night walk.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Then he turned his attention to Doris. She must have been shitting herself. Poor Thomas is kneeling there with his hands and feet tied. He can't do anything. He instructed Doris to stand by a tree where he bound her hands behind her back and began removing her shirt. Oh my God. As he began doing this.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The couple reported the attack to police and by the time the Yonkers police department released their alert for the man who attacked them, Harvey had already left the city and was on his way to Albany. Thank goodness. But fucked up.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] In late August, Harvey was not hanging with his mom anymore and he actually started renting an apartment on Columbia, uh, Columbia Street in Albany. And he started prowling once again.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] On the night of August 22nd, Florence Hayden had just left work and took the bus back to her apartment.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] After getting off of her stop, she was just walking for a few minutes towards her apartment, and she started to realize she got that feeling like someone was following her. Right. And when she looked, she was like, oh good, it's just a nurse.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Who was probably on her way to work. So she was like, okay, I'm near the hospital. That makes sense.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Jammed the gun into her back and told her not to make a sound. He stole whatever she had in her purse and then forced her into a dark backyard.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] There, he instructed her to turn around and put her hands behind her back. Florence is a smart cookie though.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And as he began tying her hands with the rope, she realized that if he was using both hands to bind her, he wouldn't be able to aim or shoot a gun.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So with this in mind, she just turned around to face him.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] They were just like, yeah, that's your fault. Yeah, exactly. And that does happen at some point. So that didn't scare him enough though, because the next night he tried another assault. This time he jumped out at teens, Beverly Goldstein and Evelyn Berger as they walked down the sidewalk.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He waved his fake gun in their faces, he demanded money from them, but once they handed over the money, he suddenly realized that he wasn't pro- he wasn't gonna be able to bind and assault one without the other one either running or trying to stop him. Like he hadn't thought this through.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Luckily, he's a fucking idiot. Luckily, Evelyn and Beverly went directly to the police and reported the assault. Fucking idiot, he is. Like, he literally went through with this and was like, oh shit, one of them is probably going to try to help the other, huh?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now this is the first time that Harvey actually got some kind of nickname, but it was like,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He became known, he was, he was feared at this point in the community because he was attacking people. And he was being called the Phantom Bandit.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Wow. Which is really bad. Crafty. That's really bad. And apparently he was a real pain in the ass to the Albany police because they just couldn't seem to nab him. He would just disappear into the darkness.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now, Police Commissioner James Kerwin and Night Chief William Mooney at the Albany Police Department.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Two detectives spotted someone matching the phantom description that had been given by all the victims because luckily they all could describe him.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, I support bullying here. I do too. Not only did he match the physical description, but as the detective watched this asshat, he was intent, intently following a young woman who seemed completely oblivious to his presence. They were just watching him follow her. Wow. Like watching him in real time.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So they immediately approached him with their guns drawn. They literally walked up and were like, yeah, like just right in his face and instructed him to turn out his pockets. Inside he had his fake cap gun, a length of rope and his wallet, which contained $24. Now he was taken into custody without much incident.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] While a second patrol unit searched Harvey's apartment where they found several personal items belonging to previous victims. Crazy! Ding ding ding!


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It's the bandit. There he is. So Harvey sang, like, a bird that sings. A canary? Canaries sing? Yes. Yeah, they sing. Uh, he sang. Well, that's the phrase anyway. Yeah, he sang like a canary. All birds sing, don't they? They do, right? Like a morning


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Like thought it was great. Oh. Authorities in Colorado.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, they were like, hey Albany, will you extradite him and we'll, we'll charge him too. Uhm, and also police in Yonkers were like, oh hey, can we also have him because of that violent assault on Thomas and Doris over here? Thanks. But authorities in Albany were like, well we want to prosecute him for the three attacks first.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So on August 28th, a grand jury in Albany indicted Harvey for robbing Florence Hayden by means of force and by placing her in fear of immediate injury.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now he was evaluated by a physician and a psychiatrist when he was admitted to the prison. They always do that. And he completed an IQ test and he got a score of 126. Wow. So the psychiatrist, Dr. Ralph Ryan-Kale noted that he was quote, endowed with superior intelligence, which is unfortunate.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He could have. And this is what he wrote, he said in his notes, uhm, you can see this in the Michael Newton book too.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I'm going to go out on a limb here and say we should listen when psychiatrists give this blunt and insightful of a fucking evaluation. I would.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The impulse to become famous or do something unusual.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Something unusual but then he later said it was the impulse to hold up women tie them up and watch them afforded him sexual gratification and gave him a sense of stimulation.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He was officially diagnosed as psychopathic personality schizophrenic type. Oh.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, and that was due to that other diagnosis of schizophrenia. And they said without proper treatment, he will remain a threat to the public.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But they were all like, yeah, that's fine, we'll probably just let them out. They didn't give him proper treatment. Well, finally this is when his parents seemed to kind of take it even more seriously. Ophelia actually told Dr. Ryan Kale that she and Albert would consent to brain surgery or a frontal lobotomy if there was no other options for treatment.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Given the time period and the pattern of behavior before this, it could be that his parents finally saw this as something that needed to be taken care of for betterment purposes.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Harvey was transferred to Sing Sing Prison, along the Hunson River, just outside New York City. No one knows why. His behavior was not as good. I was like, oof. Despite, he was getting like,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Good behavior reports, but he was getting rave reviews. I don't know what he was, he had five stars, but.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, the psychiatrist at Sing Sing said his outlook was unfortunately poor.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And insisted that he, quote, should be psychoeducated and if still anti-social should be segregated even if schizophrenia does not seem to develop.


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[Assistant] The thing is though, one, he could have been tired, sick, anything when he took that test. Two, he could have done it on purpose, cause why the fuck not.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, it just, it's, but it's just a strange little, like, how the fuck did that happen? Well, and is it always the same exact test? That's the thing, I don't know, so who knows. Now, after two and a half years at Sing Sing, with six months taken off for good behavior,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He was granted parole on April 16th, 1951, but he would have to remain under court supervision for five more years. Uh, he was now sent to Yonkers because he had warrants there for his arrest for Thomas and Doris, the attack on them.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Fortunately for Harvey, and unfortunately for everyone else in the entire world, his lawyer in the Yonkers charge said that the court had known about Harvey's whereabouts since 1946. They could have prosecuted him at any point in the previous five years, and they didn't, so this would be a violation of his Sixth Amendment right to a speedy public trial.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Open and shut. The judge in the case said, yeaah. He had no other choice. The charges were dismissed.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] They just said he needed to maintain regular check-ins with the court, he had to have outpatient, outpatient therapy, and uhm, he had to keep a job, I think.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Thanks for your rec. Yeah, he just didn't, he didn't come back.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And then years later after Harvey had been arrested for murder later in Los Angeles, Dr. Eba actually said Harvey, quote, was relatively free of all symptoms at the time of evaluation.


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[Assistant] Failures. You're all failures. Like what the fuck. So.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now according to his mother, he was unable to find a job because quote, no bonding company would give him bond. Ophelia stopped.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Then, in October of 1952, a year after he had come home, Albert Gladman died of complications of diabetes.


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[Assistant] Now finally that year, he found, or no excuse me, uh, two years later in 1954, he actually finally found employment at a Denver butcher shop. Oh no.


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[Assistant] But don't worry, he abandoned that job after 10 months. We don't really know why. Okay, 10 months is a pretty good step. Yeah. A parole summary from this time actually shows him his employment history. Uh, they, they label it as erratic.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I just love that that guy looked in the mirror every day and was bold in any way. It's usually those ones though. Like what a little fucking turd. Yeaah. Oh no, on September 7th, 1956.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, he was discharged from parole after doing nothing he was supposed to do. So that system worked really well in that instance. Now he was just completely free and clear. He didn't have any charges, nothing. He can just go.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So finally at this point he is 28 years old and he can do whatever the fuck he wants. And what he wanted to do was get as far away from Denver and as far away from his mom as he could. So in January of 1957 he moved to Los Angeles, California.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He had big dreams of becoming a star. He certainly did. Now remember, Harvey from like the beginning of his life has had someone telling him what to do. Not just his parents, but like bosses, jailers, parole officers.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] In Los Angeles, this is the first time he is free. He's writing the script. Something that


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] With someone who has his particular interests would be very appealing.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Because remember, this is a big city, it's Los Angeles, you can go around unnoticed, and no one's gonna notice a little strange behavior. Mm-mm. So...