[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So when they were in Massachusetts in custody, the police were searching their home on numerous occasions trying to find any kind of solid evidence to prove Gary's involvement. They were taking boxes and boxes filled with all kinds of things. But as they tested and tested, nothing could be linked back to Heidi. At all.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] At that time, Gary actually hadn't been announced as the second suspect yet, but people knew why Richard had been arrested and they could add two and two together pretty easily. And you know, people started talking, being like, Gary's involved, like, we know something's going on.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now while they were incarcerated, the Syracuse Herald Journal actually posted a story pointing out how weak the evidence was against Dick.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, cause I mean, no matter what, even if you're like, we feel like he's involved, you gotta have something, man. You have to have something. Something. And it really is.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] There are suspects in murder cases, like why are you giving them the time of day? Yeah. And the newspapers were like, usually we don't get to do this because the lawyers will tell them not to talk to any press.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] These articles that were kind of giving, uh, Richard and Gary like the time of day. Whoa.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Alleged. Alleged. Now some luck would come to the investigation when a furnace in the back of Gary's home was checked.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now, obviously they want to look inside and test anything that might be lingering, so they did find bones inside.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now the forensic anthropologist found that most of the bones were chicken bones, but there were a few that could not be definitively decided upon. He said it was possible that they could be human.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But he said, these undetermined bones are consistent in color and appearance with the other bones that we found, meaning they're most likely chicken bones, but I can't rule out that they could be human bones. Yea, like you can't say definitively one way or another. Which sucks, because does he have human remains in his furnace, or does he have chicken bones?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And that was that on that. He just said there's no way to definitively decide. He just said most likely chicken bones, but I can't rule it out. Also, like maybe this is just me. Why do you have chicken bones in your furnace? I don't know. I mean, what is the reasoning for that? Chicken bones in your furnace? They just throw them out.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I don't know, I'm just like, why would you even have chicken bones in your furnace? I...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And then what put the final cherry on top for these, these investigators and the prosecutors was when two inmates, Robert, uh, Baldessaro, excuse me, and James McDonald come forward and they say that Gary was definitely involved in Heidi Allen's disappearance and worse, he had murdered her.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] They said, Gary described some kind of drug deal that he and Heidi had been involved in. The story changed a couple of times. At one point they said Heidi had screwed Gary over and then in another version, Gary had screwed Heidi over and then she threatened him.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So he and his brother abducted her from the store and killed her by hitting her over the head with a shovel.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Horrible. And the media goes bonkers and they release a story saying these two men come forward with details that only the kidnappers would know.


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[Assistant] That's not great. Doesn't look good. That is not great for you, man. No, it's definitely not. No. I mean.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You're right, I need to know why. Guys, email us if you have like a furnace in your backyard that you use as a burn pit, or if you have any kind of furnace and why you would have chicken bones in there. Yea, like maybe I'm just not thinking it through because I don't have a burn pit or anything like that. I just don't understand why that would happen, but maybe I'm wrong. Unless I don't, like if you're a farmer and like you


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Are disposing of the rest, like the chicken carcass? I don't know. Yeah, and it's like, okay, I guess you would burn it, I suppose. Would you?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I don't know. I'm not a farmer. I honestly have no idea. I don't know. That's why I'm, I'm just more like, what the fuck? It doesn't make a lot of sense. I mean, the fact that there's bones that they could, and I know that it's one of those things where it's like, we can't definitively say either way. So it makes it a little like eee, that's scary. But like, I don't know.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I don't know. I don't know. And again, remember, can't definitively say, but most likely chicken bones. Well, that's the thing. And I think that's the thing that we all need to concentrate on.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You know, they, most of them are consistent with chicken bones. Like if they sat there and said 80% of them are chicken bones, 20 are undetermined but consistent.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But what was this about Heidi Allen being involved in a drug deal? I told you all about Heidi Allen in the beginning of this, and not once did she sound like the kind of girl who would be involved in any kind of drug deal. No, that's when you started saying that, my mind was like, what? You're like, what the fuck? Oh, we're trying to put her there? What? And most people were confused and shocked when they heard about this. They were like,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But it turns out that the local police had been using Heidi as an informant since she was 15 years old. What the fuck?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And that is where we're wrapping for part one. Oh my god, she was an informant? She was an informant.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Whoa. And I will tell you exactly why in the beginning of part two. And then we are gonna go over some, uh, shady investigations where when you're involved in a court case, both sides, the defense and the prosecution have to show each other everything that they're gonna use in court.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That didn't happen here. Oh good. Files were hidden.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] There's a lot coming up in part two. Wow. That was wild. I didn't see that coming at all and now I'm even more worried for Heidi. Yeah. It's a lot. This case is absolutely heartbreaking.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And the thing that stinks is, you know, like maybe justice was served. It might've been.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But there is a reasonable doubt in the mind of a lot of people. There's questions. There's questions. And there just shouldn't be. Like I wish for everybody involved that there didn't have to be questions. That's the thing. It's when there's questions.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] What is it? This is coming out on Wednesday and part two is going to come out on Friday, so we won't make you wait too long. Yeah, it's going to be back to back. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Cool. So uhm, we hope that you keep listening. And we hope you forgot how we ended that. Keep it. Weird. But that's a way that you figure out how to end your own show that you've been doing for four years. That's actually a lot. Bye.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Hey Prime members, you can listen to Morbid early and ad free on Amazon Music. Download the app today.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That's why nobody really likes, well like, I don't know, I'm generalizing, but nobody really likes this part of winter, like January, February, March. It's tough. It's rough, yeaah.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Oh, what was the one that you did where it was like that and you went through all like the ship manifestos and all that? Oh yeaah. The shenanigans.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Oh my god, fuck me up. Isn't that adorable? I'm gonna call my kids that.


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[Assistant] Well, does that just, like, that doesn't fix itself, so she just like went on the rest of her life with that?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] When you start finding amusement in things but you're like not with your partner and you're like that makes you sad, you're in love. And when you're like just thinking about


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It's confusing though, cause like, aren't those the rules of a duel? Like someone dies.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So since Hamilton put his pistol in the sky, that's where Burr was also supposed to do that?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And you think of how like quick that happens though, like if he turned around prepared to not see, I'm sure he didn't think he was gonna see Hamilton's gun in the sky. Of course. So, that's a quick movement.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And again, like, the way that her life mirrors her mother's life, that's crazy.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I know. I think that no matter what, in my opinion, pirates were involved.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It's like a really sad story from start to finish. No matter what, it's tragic. Yea, with like little inklings of happiness, but not a ton.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, I would like to keep singing your praises and telling you how much I like this, but you need some fucking tea.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, this has been, uh, this has been the longest research I've done. Really? Cause I started much earlier than I normally do with research. Yeah. Cause I knew it was going to be a very daunting.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It came out in like 2013. Yea, I was still in high school. And it's still happening. Yea. They just like really draw out those seasons. I didn't realize that until recently either, that's funny that you brought that up. Yea, I had no idea and I know I've been wanting to watch it since 2013, but it's been one of those that I'm like yea, I'll watch that. Yea. And then I just haven't.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And I realized that not only is this show fucking awesome and I'm so excited to be completely entrenched in it, but two, it takes place around the same time period of this in the same place. Yeah, like only like 30 or 40 years after. Yeah, it's not that far off and it's like definitely got the vibe. And I was watching it last night being like, I cannot escape this.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I will say that uhm, if you have no other reason to watch it, watch it for Killian Murphy. Okay. Uh, that's what I was in it for. There you go. The time period of course and Killian Murphy were like big selling points to me. Of course. And they, they gave, they gave me everything I needed.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Exactly. And that's our life. And that is our life, everyone. So go watch Peaky Wanders if you haven't, and if you have, which I know a lot of you have, because I tweeted about it, like, when I was watching it, and everybody was like, oh my god, I love that show. People are obsessed. So, I'm here. I'm ready to talk to you about it, and I'm excited to be here. So.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, it's basically just gonna get me until Stranger Things 2.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I don't know. I don't know. Is that how it usually works though? That is, but we'll see. It's like euphoria. I'm in a place of freaking...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] We're all alone in this together. I was going to say you're suffering together. We are immensely. So there you go.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah. So bad. It's been really bad. It has. It's getting so bad. I mean, one of these is one of the most horrific scenes I've ever read about. I'm glad that I'm not going into this blindly. I can't imagine going into a case like this having no idea. Exactly. Yeah.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Mary Jane Kelly scene, which I think a lot of people have seen that photograph.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Mary Jane Kelly in part four, but today we're going to be talking about the double event, which is when he killed twice in one night, very close to each other. We're going to talk about it.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] We just, the last time we, when we left you, we were talking about how, uh, John or Jack Pizer, Leather Apron, he had been brought in, but he had been cleared. Had like multiple alibis. And he said, I didn't come forward when I, when my name was first brought up, I went on the run because I thought people were going to hang me without even wondering whether I actually did it or not.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Which fair, cause it probably would have happened because there were several times when people thought that police were bringing in a suspect of Jack, which at this point he's just called the white chapel murderer or the mutilation series they were calling it. He hasn't even Jack yet. He hasn't even named himself yet. We haven't even got there. Oh, I know.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] We haven't even gotten to the letters because they haven't come yet. This part or next part? It's going to be next part. Okay. Uh, but that's when we're going to talk about the letters, him naming himself, like the, whether we think it's a hoax or not, those letters, the different suspects, the different theories, the different ins and outs and, and also Mary Jean Kelly. Uh, but for this one, leather aprons been cleared.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The last victim was Annie Chapman and Whitechapel has lost their collective shit after this. I mean, Annie Chapman's murder was horrifying. There are still some discrepancies as to her time of death though that were kind of complicating the investigation.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Cause at this point, they're just trying to get anything they can. Cause they know that these are connected. Right. They don't know when the next one's gonna hit. They're trying to stop it before it hits. And they don't have a lot to work with.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So Dr. Phillips, Dr. Bagstrip Phillips, our guy, our guy, uh, he had stated that when he saw Annie Chapman at 6.30 AM, he believed that she had been dead for about two hours. Okay.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] If we put that next to the witness accounts that morning, it doesn't really make sense. So someone must have been off. Uhm, that, so there was a man named John Richardson who lived at 29 Hanbury Street where the murder occurred.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Albert Kadosh heard someone yell no, we talked about him, at 525 a.m. and then at 528 a.m. he said he heard someone fall against the fence between his yard at 27 Hambury Street and 29 Hambury.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Then we have Mrs. Elizabeth Long's witness account. She was the first one that I talked about in the last episode.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That she saw Annie Chapman with a man who quote, looked like a foreigner. Yup. In a deer stalker hat. We were like, what does that mean? And I'm like, what exactly does that mean Elizabeth? Uh, but that was at 5.30am.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Huh. So remember, Albert Kadosch said at 5.25 he heard no.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He heard someone fall at 528 and now Elizabeth Long's saying at 530, two minutes later, she sees Annie Chapman just talking to this guy.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Before even going into the arts. That is the problem with eyewitness accounts. Exactly. So Dr. Phillips' estimate of death is already shot to shit. He came at 6.30 and said she was already dead two hours ago, but an hour ago she was talking to someone. Or was she?


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[Assistant] So that doesn't make any sense. And also, now we have to question how Mrs. Long


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[Assistant] Again, she could be off, she could have, because Albert may have just been off by 15 minutes, because that's not that crazy to think about, that like he was like, oh it was 5, you know, 20, whatever when I heard it.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Maybe he heard the clock chime too and he got the wrong.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Like amount of chimes, maybe he looked at something and thought it was this time. I feel like he's a little more off than Elizabeth Long. I could see that. Cause Elizabeth Long was like very adamant. Right. The clock chimed 530. I heard it. I looked at her. I know that's her. She was talking to this guy.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And besides, besides all this, there was this weird obsession for a bit where police were assuming this killer was an escaped inmate from an asylum.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I could see why they would think that because of the brutality, but why else? See, and that's the thing, so it's weird to me, it's wild to me actually, that they assumed that at any point that this person was insane.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] In the throes of insanity or someone who is not a sane clinically person could do, it rings to me very evil and very focused. Uh, and like knows what they're doing, like calculated. Yeah, it doesn't feel like somebody escaped from an asylum.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] This had the Metropolitan Police Force concentrating for a long period of time on escaped or recently released asylum patients,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And to me, it feels like a massive waste of time. I think that was like, real dumb.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] This is called the American doctor theory. Now, this theory came about when the coroner, which this coroner in particular that I'm going to talk about, Win Baxter, was not a medical doctor. So he was not Dr. Win Baxter. He was a voted in coroner.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He mentioned during Annie Chapman's inquest on September 26th, 1888 that he believed, and I quote,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] No unskilled person could know where to find it or have recognized it when it was found, which I agree.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] An American had called him up on the phone and asked him if he could buy some specimens because he said he was writing a paper that was about to be published.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] No, we can't do that. We're not in that business. And this American, who's like they're claiming was a doctor, medical student, said he would pay a ton of money for them.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And he had already made this request to another institution apparently, he said.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] No, no. In response to this, The Lancet, which was a weekly medical journal, published uhm, they like published details of the cases, but they were the only ones who would publish details because they were a medical journal.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Also, can I just say this is so relevant to now. Like when you read this, you're like, wow, we haven't changed. The public mind ever too ready to cast much, uh, excuse me, ever too ready to cast mud at legitimate research. Hmm.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] ...will hardly fail to be excited to a pitch of animosity against anatomists and curators, which may take a long while to subside.


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[Assistant] Still doing that, and what is equally deplorable, the revelation thus made by the coroner, which so dramatically startled the public last Wednesday evening, may probably lead to a diversion from the real track of the murderer, and thus defeat rather than serve the ends of justice.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] We believe the story to be highly improbable, although it may have a small basis of fact which will require the exercise of much common sense to separate from the sensational fiction that surrounds it.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So essentially it was a bullsh- bullshit theory. He repeated this story.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He had no proof of this. There was no, like, it was ridiculous. He just wanted to say something. It just didn't make sense to me. Nothing about these. We talk about how, you know, these things were taken out meticulously and very carefully. Sure. But that's a lot of fucking work to go through.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] To get, when you could technically, if you're really just looking for organs to harvest, it's like find somebody who's like, at that point people were like dying on the streets. It's like guys, that doesn't make sense. They're doing, he's doing it too quickly and in too obvious places and leaving them.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] What's he doing with it? Right. You can't just throw it like on ice and be like,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Or that he just tossed it somewhere and it was never found. Just took it to take it to fuck with people. Who really knows? That's the worst part of this. Now, after Annie Chapman, there was a three week lull. So people started to get lulled into a sense of false security. That was until September 29th, 1888.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] At 1am, Louis Dimschultz, I believe it's Diem Schultz I think actually, Louis Diem Schultz was coming back from work and he was taking a horse and carriage.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He was the steward of the International Working Men's Educational Club. I think I mentioned it in part one at some point. On the other side of the Dutfields yard court around 40 Burner Street.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So the Dutfield's yard was like this big courtyard that there was all kinds of things around it. And one of these was that, that club.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, he was cutting through Duckfield's yard and his horse wouldn't walk anymore.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So he went into the club to grab a candle and two other men came out with him to go look back at who was on the ground. When they all lit matches to see they lifted her shoulders and head and she was completely limp.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] When they held the lights to her they found that this woman had her throat violently slashed.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] There was actually a myth that she was holding grapes in her right hand, but that's not true. No grapes were found on her.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, and there's a reason for that because I think people, there's a, there's a sighting where like she was eating grapes. Okay. So I think that became something, but that is a no report. It's a no corners report.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I am on seven. So the newest one I found was, uh, Jack the Ripper, Scotland Yard Investigates by Stuart P. Evans and J- and Donald Rumbelow.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Donald Rumbelow also did the complete Jack the Ripper, which is another book that I recommend. Uh, the other one that I found was Jack the Ripper, the definitive case book by Richard Whittington Egan. That one's really good because it kind of,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Doesn't give you a blow-by-blow of the case, it goes into


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The different theories and the different like myths and the different things. It kind of gives you a more like, uh, abstract look at the case, which is really interesting and fun.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So I definitely recommend those, and uhm, I've been linking the other ones like The Hidden Lives of Jack the Ripper's Victims by Robert Hume, The Ripper Code by Thomas Tuffill, uh, Jack the Ripper and the Case for Scotland Yard Suspect by Robert House, and uhm, The Five by uh, Hallie Rubenhold. They're all really good, they're all


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, trimmed, the whole thing was trimmed with fur. She was wearing a black skirt, a black bonnet and a checkered neck scarf that was pulled very tightly around her neck. But they said that they thought she pulled it very tightly. And then maybe it got slightly tightened.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] When, you know, she was attacked, but they didn't think it was like he tied something around her neck. Like he didn't choke her with it or anything. Now, they got a police officer immediately, of course, and soon there was a crowd gathering around her.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] They were probably not psyched about that, but like, you're in the wrong place at the wrong time, my dudes. I don't know what to tell you. No one was found to have blood on their hands or their clothing. Okay. And nothing was found out of the ordinary. Which is like great, but also just a fucking bummer because you're like, ugh. I know, you're like...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Wasn't just someone running back into the club. Can you imagine if it was just one of them? He just walked back into the club. Now on October 1st, 1888, she was identified as Elizabeth Stride, who sometimes went by Annie Fitzgerald. I know that is a totally different name. That is just another one that she went by.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, you know, Elizabeth had many nicknames aside from Annie Fitzgerald. She was known as Long Liz. Long Liz. Likely. Now, this is interesting because I didn't realize that this was a thing, but I guess like people with the last name Stride, that was like a running joke at the time.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Hilarious. Uh, but other people, because it was like a whole thing where people were like, is it that? Or is it because she had like a long face? Was she, and she wasn't that tall, so it doesn't make sense. Maybe that was why though. Yeah, it could have been like a funny, like, long lose over here. Uh, but she was also known as Mother Gum.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] She was born November 27th, 1843 in Stora, I might say lots of these things wrong because it is in Sweden. Uh, Stora Tumlahead in Sweden. I think that she might be a Capricorn. Get it, girl.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, her father was Gustav Ericsson, which is why her last name was Gustav Daughter. Makes sense. Uhm, she's a Sagittarius. There you go, you were close. Her mother was Bita Carl's daughter, and they lived on a farm.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Everyone was expected to work on this farm, kids included from a very early age. They grew potatoes, other vegetables, you know, it was a pretty, it was like a nice little farm, but not very lucrative, not very easy work. So it was tough growing up.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] They were definitely not considered at that time worth going to school if they could work at home.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It was just the way it was. Now, when she was 17, she took off to start her own life in the city of Gothenburg.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] She was known as a very kind and very respectable girl who didn't get into any trouble.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] She was also known to always have her Bible with her because that is one thing growing up. They went to church. They could, I think the uhm, what I read in the hidden lives of Jack the Ripper's victims was that like the only thing she really did know how to read was her Bible. Like that was it.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, people really liked her and they really got along with her. She settled in pretty well and by February of that year she had gotten work as a domestic servant for Lars Fredrik Olufsen and his wife.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It was a super nice environment. She took care of their kids. She did work around the house. She worked for them for three years. Everything was great. No complaints at all. Then out of nowhere with no notice and no hint of displeasure, she just walked out.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Something had to have happened. And that's why I'm like, what happened there? Yeah, what's the tea? Something happened there. Of course, now she had to go find somewhere to stay because she no longer had a nice roof over her head and she walked out of a nice home. So it's like, what happened there?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] We're missing a piece of that puzzle and I don't know if we'll ever get it.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I would, I would like to know, but I don't know if we'll ever find out.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, she ended up getting a room in, on like a street that was in not a great area. Of course. Cause that's really all she could afford at the time. That's where they were, yea. Yea. August 1864, her mother at only 54 years old died of a respiratory illness. Could have been TB, could have been anything, we don't know. But she was young.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And she too, so she's devastated. Of course. She took to the area she was finding herself living in and she took to the streets as a sex worker. Because she had no other options. And often that is what we find in these situations, they had no other option.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Oh for sure. A lot of them were hopeless at the time that they were killed and that had been hopeless for a long time. Unfortunately this was like a really sad time. There was not a lot of hope and there was not a lot of like positive stuff to look at.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now, this is interesting. Again, from the hidden lives of Jack the Ripper's victims, I found out that she was registered in the Gothenburg police files as a quote, prostitute.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Interestingly, in Sweden, this registration wasn't like they registered her to like arrest her. This, she registered as one.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] In the 1800s. In Sweden, yeah. The Swedish government figured it was better to just control and regulate what was going on. Imagine that. No, it wasn't all, it wasn't great, I will say that. It sounds great, like it sounds like, oh wow, progressive, but like, I don't know.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, basically they were just trying to stop because at the time the spread of disease was very rampant. And especially like, and the spread of illnesses, like sexually transmitted illnesses, so.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] They figured instead of criminalize it, they were just going to try to keep it under control. So they registered sex workers and allowed them to work but just wanted to be made aware of any health concerns.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Which sounds fine. Each worker was described in the register and other information was put in their file aside from like diseases or illnesses, other health information. Elizabeth was 21 at the time. She was labeled as female prostitute number 97.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Which like, wow. And described as being slight build, blue eyes, brown hair, a straight nose, and other random information. Okay. This sounds again, like I said, very progressive way to look at sex work, but it wasn't, especially for like 18, whatever, 1860s, uhm,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But it wasn't just as simple as that. She was also not allowed to be outside in public until after 11 PM. Oh.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now at one point when she was young, she gave birth to a stillborn child from an unknown father. This was devastating for her, obviously, and she had just lost her mother. I mean, I think she was only 21 years old at the time when that happened.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now in November 1865, she ended up being taken off the register by the police and this would really only happen if they like moved, died.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Like something big happened. Now this one was for a positive thing. It was, she got another job as a domestic servant for Carl Wenzel Wissner and his young wife Maria.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So she only stayed there for a few months though. She ended up leaving when Maria informed her that she was pregnant. I don't know if it was because she didn't want to take care of a baby. She just wanted to be a domestic servant. She had just lost a baby. Maybe she just wasn't ready.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But at this point she did find out that she got a little money from her dead mother's estate. Okay. So this was her chance. She was like, I'm going to get far away from this shittiness in Sweden and I'm going to London.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] She liked it, like she was finding work as a domestic servant, she liked it, but I think, uhm, I don't know if I mentioned it in the Mary, uh, the Polly Nichols one, but


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So for the first three months, you didn't get paid and then you got paid the back three months. Okay. So if you could stick it out for those three months, cool. You're getting a big check, but most of these people are taking this job with no money to their name. They can't afford that.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Right. So it's like kind of this terrible cycle of like people can't deal with the three months of no pay. Right, like what are you supposed to do? And that was just how it was there. Like that was like standard that like you didn't get paid for the first. I don't know if it was like


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Nothing, like these people are coming in there with not anything to rub together. But they could live in the house and eat. They could live in the house and I think they could eat, but it was like still, and a lot of them were very reliant on alcohol at the time because they're struggling. I think that has a lot to do with it.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] No, and I think a lot of them just want to be able to like have, you know, people want their own money, you know, like you don't want to have to rely on someone for three months. So a lot of people dealt with it, but some people couldn't and she was struggling with this, like this three month period.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, because that's not how it was done in Sweden, and she didn't know that this is how it was gonna be. So Elizabeth Split, from this, like, domestic servants job in the West End, found her way to a known Swedish parish in the area, cause she figured I can meet some people that I can go to their church, it'll feel like home, but without all the stresses.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So it worked for her for a while and she was staying in lodging houses and trying to make her way.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] She had gotten herself a small job making and cleaning bed linens for the lodging house, which a lot of these women did as well. They would sometimes be able to like clean the floors, clean the kitchen, cook at the lodging houses, change the beds, you know, do the laundry. And them doing that was like, okay, you get your free night's stay. Okay. It was like a workhouse without being a workhouse.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So she got herself that small job. It seemed to be working out a little bit. This is when she became known as Long Liz. That's when people started calling her that. Uhm, it's see again, I guess it was a common nickname for people with that surname, but like,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] What? It's just so weird. Like alright. Now around this time is when she, like it was right before she was being called Long Liz that she met John Thomas Stride. He was a carpenter from the Isle of Sheppey Kent. He was said to be a short, unattractive man who was abrasive and loud. So I was like, okay.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But you know, Liz was taken, I suppose. She was taken with this short, unattractive man who was abrasive and loud. Okay. Now, they married, March 7th, 1869. Hot. They moved into the East End, into a lodging house, and together- Not so hot. Not so hot, but you know, and they opened up a coffee shop.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I'd love to open up a coffee place. Yeah, this sounds like it would be awesome. It wasn't. It wasn't working out. And they actually moved a couple of times the coffee shop location because like one would fail and they just moved to another one. They just weren't getting enough customers. Yeah, it just wasn't happening. And I don't think they were like,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] They could have gone a lot of places if life had given them any card to work with. I think that's a perfect way of putting it. Because I feel like they all were not content to sit and just rot. They wanted more and they wanted to go, go, go, but they just, life was just kicking them, kicking them, kicking them every single time.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I'm sorry. Like shit. Like a shit was not great. Uhm, but again, she was, this is, alcohol tends to play a very heavy role in all these people's lives, I think just because escapism and just to get away from the terribleness that was surrounding them. Uhm, but again, she didn't really want to sit and manage the shop.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] She was known around all the pubs and around the locals to be fun, sweet. She was really funny. Uh, just like she was known back in Sweden. She was the same girl.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Often to avoid jail, people would take on hard labor at workhouses to pay their debts to society. So jail.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Kind of reprehensible, to be quite honest. For her? Not a great look for her. Oh no. Not a great moment in her life that kinda carries out. Okay. Now, a steamer ship by the name of Princess Alice, on this day, collided with another ship, a ship named Bywell Castle on the Thames River, and it sank.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Somewhere between 600 and 700 people died in this tragedy. It was a huge tragedy. There was a collection put together where people could donate to the families who had lost loved ones in the ship.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] She pretended to be a survivor of the accident and that her husband and two of her, what she said were nine children were killed in the accident.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] What about the seven kids though? How'd they get out? That's the thing. You never see those seven kids. She did not have seven kids. Where are your kids at? Uhm, it didn't work.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] No, and it's again, it's a shitty thing. It was a bad use of her time. It was a bad decision she made. A lot of these women made some bad decisions.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] By no means does it give anybody any justification to harm her. That's not like a, you know, so it's like we don't have to pretend they were perfect people that just like didn't do anything bad in their lives, but everybody's shitty in some way.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And she did use this over and over again and she used it sometimes.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] She'd say, she'd just tell people if they asked like, where's your husband? Oh, he died in a, in the, uh, in the crash. And you know, like she'd say like, oh, I lost these teeth like in that accident or, you know, my kids died in that accident. Like just, it was usually to try to like get,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But she had learned early in life how to sew and tailor, and she would sometimes use those skills to earn money too, but it was just never consistent. That's the problem back then, it just was never consistent money.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And this was just in case the opportunity arose that she could use her skills. Okay. She always had buttons, thimbles, a needle and some thread on her. She was like, she was just ready to jump into action. A seamstress. So you can, you can see that she, Elizabeth was ready to make


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] By 1881, she and John Stride had moved into a lodging home at 69 Usher Road in Bow. Uh, this was very cramped. They didn't have it to themselves. They had to share with several of the other families. She began drinking very heavily around this time.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] John, on the other hand, was very religious and the idea of drinking horrified him. She left around Christmas leaving their house and John because they just couldn't.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now after a week, she was made to go to Whitechapel Workhouse.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So she went to Whitechapel Workhouse, she struggled in and out of these kind of situations, not really finding work to rely on. So like the other victims, she was in these workhouses and lodging homes and casual wards constantly, just over and over again.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, and John would give her money every now and then.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He ends up dying like very shortly after this. And meanwhile, while they're not together, like a strange, she's still claiming that he died in that ship sinking.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So she moved into a lodging house at 32 Flower and Dean Street, which we mentioned in part one, is one of the worst areas. Flower and Dean Street is that one of those, like, infamous, like, ahh. I love that flower. Flower and Dean Street, yea. Can you name it something that will keep me away from it? Exactly.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] In one of the sources and I cannot remember which one it was, they mentioned something about like, you know, had to walk hours a day on a giant treadmill. And I was like, I'm sorry, what? I looked it up.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That was like a thing they did back then to prisoners. They would have them work, like a treadmill was the name for this big fucking contraption that worked on like a mill wheel. And it was literally a treadmill that, or like almost like a step treadmill, like almost like a master. Yeah, that you just, they would make prisoners walk for hours.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] This is when she started seeing a dock worker by the name of Michael Kidney.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Just doing it, she, I think she could have like really found her way. But they were eventually able to get some money together to move into a room together on Devonshire Street. Uhm, but they weren't really happy together.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] A shithead. Fuck him. So she was drinking heavily again and started, uhm, taking to the street again to get some extra money, kinda just falling back into that life cause it was the life she had known. She felt comfortable with it. And it's a guaranteed way to make money. It's a guarantee. They all said it at one point that it was just quick.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Which is horrifying to think about. For real. Now, he assaulted her one night because he found out that she had gone back to sex work and he was pissed. So one night when she got home, he assault, like physically assaulted her.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And he was pissed that she was drinking, pissed that she was on the streets, and meanwhile,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, it was all for drunken disorderly stuff. So she was really going through it. The year before she was killed, she was going through it.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But life just doesn't let them. No, exactly. And it's like right here is where like she was at her worst. She was back to sex work, which she was not happy doing. She wasn't cooking. She wasn't, uh, Michael Kidney and her were back and forth, but every time it was abuse, abuse, abuse, she's just in a terrible place.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] September 20th of 1988, she was walking in Whitechapel.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] When she started talking to Catherine, she was like, oh, this is Elizabeth. Uhm, and Elizabeth Tanner was like, oh, I'm the manager of the lodging house on Flower and Dean Street.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And she was like, if you wanna stay there, like I'll help you out. Because she heard her story, and she was like, wow, like you have a terribly abusive partner, like I'm gonna try to help you out. Okay. So she told her, you can stay there.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] She was like, you need to do some laundry, you need to clean, I'll pay you a small amount and you can stay for a roof over your head, which was huge. And she was like, I can also help out in the kitchen. Okay. She was like, cool, perfect. This is great. Okay. So they got along really well. Things were going well.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] She got, she's a few days into this new job, this new lodging situation. Elizabeth Tanner was really liking Stride. She said she got along with her. She would have been happy to have her there for longer. And on September 29th, 1888, they went drinking together at the Queen's Head Pub around 6.30 PM, which it's like,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] At that point too, it's like maybe she could have found herself like co-managing this place. Exactly. Now people from the lodging house remember her coming back around 7pm, so after having that drink with Elizabeth Tanner.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, and then getting ready to leave again. And by 7.30 a few of them witnessed her in the kitchen. They said she appeared to be in good spirits, was happy. She was openingly readying herself to walk the streets that evening. So she was saying, I'm going to make a few


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I'm going to make some money. Now witnesses saw her with several different men slash possibly clients throughout the evening.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Before 11pm, a couple of men saw her speaking to a man they described as wearing a jacket that had white flowers pinned to it.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] They both called him clerkly looking, like he looked like a clerk.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I think it's like you look like a clerk, I guess? He had a dark mustache, I don't know if it's just like...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Okay, cause I saw this and I was like, that's a strange description, but somebody else describes a man that way too. The two men saw this man and her leaving the bricklayer's arms, which is a


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] At 11 45 PM, William Marshall, a witness, reported he saw Elizabeth quote, kissing and carrying on with a man he described as a clerk looking man.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] This man was described as having a sailor's hat on, and they were walking towards Dutfield's Court near the International Workman's Educational Club. Alrighty. Don't know if you remember that. I do.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He heard this man saying to her you would say anything but your prayers. Oh.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, but Dutfield's yard, like we said, is next to that club, which was hopping late at night, but the yard itself was gated off in pitch black.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Exactly. Now, so they were walking towards there, uhm, a few minutes later they were seen, they believe that this is the same guy, seen at a greengrocer shop who was, uh, the grocer was Matthew Packer. It was on Burner Street.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He told, I guess what happened in there was the guy walked up to the grocer, Matthew Packer, and was like,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Everything seemed fine according to him. Now, police constable William Smith saw Elizabeth around 12.30am near Dutfield's yard with a man he said was about 28 years old, which is like a very specific number.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, wearing a dark coat and a deerstalkers cap. So a different man. Different man, but if you remember that deerstalkers hat, Annie Chapman was talking to a man with a deerstalkers cap. You might be like, whoa, but deerstalkers hats were very common then. So it's not, but we know.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That other man was carrying a package. There was, there was a few like, there's different sources that say, cause I think also witnesses confuse themselves in these situations, but there is, there is a package in newspaper.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That comes up every now and then in these. Which makes you wonder, is that where his- he's keeping his tools. Exactly. Allah.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It would be, it would make more sense if he was just walking around with it in a newspaper package. Right. Cause no one's gonna blink at that. And he can walk away still holding the package and no one's gonna question it.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Suspicious. Because you're just, everybody's walking around holding shit. Right. Now a few minutes later she was spotted on Faircloth Street with a man who people say was about five foot seven and was wearing a long black coat that went to his ankles. Okay. This witness heard her say, no, not tonight, some other night. Okay. That particular one,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It is reported in everything, but some people, some ripperologists out there, they believe that that was not her.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And it's just because when you put it together with everything, it seems like that may have been somebody who they thought was her, but not sure. Worth noting.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Exactly. Uh, then that brings us to 12.45 a.m. when Israel Schwartz was on his way home. He saw a man about five foot five. He said he looked to be about 30 years old. He looked to be a little drunk.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Little tipsy entering and he was in the entrance of Dutfield's yard.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He had kind of like a round face, he said he had brown hair, a small brown mustache, he was wearing all dark clothing, like,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Black shirt, black pants, black hat, black everything. He was a goth. He was. In the police report from October 19th, 1888, it states this, and I quote,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So Israel Schwartz stated at this hour on turning onto into burner street from commercial road and having got as far as the gateway where the murder was committed. He saw a man stopped to speak to a woman who was standing in the gateway.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The man tried to pull the woman into the street, but he turned her round and threw her down on the footway and the woman screamed three times, but not very loudly.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] On crossing to the opposite side of the street, he saw a second man standing, lighting his pipe. The man who threw the woman down called out apparently to the man on the opposite side of the road, Lipski. That's what he yelled.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Finding that he was followed by the second man, the one with the pipe he was lighting, he ran so far as the railway arch, but the man did not follow so far.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Upon being taken to the mortuary, Schwartz identified the body as that of the woman he had seen, and he thus describes the first man who threw the woman down, aged about 30, height 5 foot 5,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, there was an article posted in Ripperologist magazine, which I did not know was a thing, but apparently it's like a very big periodical in the Ripperology space. We'd love to hear it. This, uhm, this article was written by Robert McLaughlin and in it he talks about what this Lipski could mean.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I was curious myself in this article, really it made me think. So I recommend reading this entire article. And again, I'm going to post the link to it in the show notes. Uh, but basically it's a discussion about what exactly Lipski means and if that is even what Israel Schwartz said.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I'm going to cover that story in more detail by itself because it deserves an entire episode.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But he confessed to it and was hanged on August 22nd, 1887. This was only a year earlier.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So did Lipsky start to mean murder? Well, so his real, his real surname was actually Lebulsk, but he changed it when he arrived in London. A lot of people did that. No one really knows why. He was Jewish and since anti-Semitism was rampant around this time, people think like maybe he thought it sounded less Jewish, Lipsky, but


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It was a massive case that was everywhere in all the papers and people had it on their minds for sure. Now one possibility for this was that this man shouted Lipski at his friend across the street and meant it as like a verb, almost. According to the Complete Jack the Ripper by Donald Rumbolo, which again I really love.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Men would often say these things during to their, like during arguments with their wives, like domestic disputes.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Oh my god. It was very common thing in London, I guess, at the time. People would take events and use them as like verbs, kind of thing. I guess we kind of still do that to this day. Yeah. And I guess then it was just like a little more like...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Prominent. Gratuitous, I suppose, but, uh, so maybe this man was trying to harm Elizabeth and yelled Lipski, like, I'm gonna Lipski you.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Or possibly he was hurling an insult to Israel Schwartz. Again, anti-Semitism was rampant and maybe he saw Israel looking their way and not minding his own business and he yelled Lipski.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The name of a really infamous Jewish murderer at Schwartz as an insult.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Especially at this time during the Jack the Ripper murders, Jewish people were being, they were in danger at this point. Like people, so him yelling that would have been like a threat and it could have definitely been an insult.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So that could be something that in which all of these are.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Horrifying so far. To use Lipski as a verb, first of all, and then to just like hurl an anti-Semitic like basic insult at somebody. Right.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] This was something I had wondered this next one and I was glad to see it questioned in that article as well because my initial thought was that maybe he wasn't saying Lipski at all.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Maybe he was saying Lizzie or something like that. Her name is Elizabeth. She was called Liz sometimes. It seems to me.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] When I read this incident and I read the report, it felt personal to me. This man was dragging her out on the street. And that doesn't feel jacked to me. It feels very domestic violence to me.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Michael Kidney perhaps? The guy that she was with that was abusive? Was he trying to get her to go back home with him somewhere and she was refusing? Cause again, he's dragging her into the middle of the street. He's not dragging her into an alley. Yeah. And because when she was refusing, this man pushed her to the ground.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And I don't know, it just feels weirdly personal. That feels domestic violence-y.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, she also didn't call out for help. Like I feel like she would have.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But all to say, the Lipski incident happened at 1245 a.m. and by 1 a.m. she was dead. Okay. So this was 15 minutes later. Right. She was dead.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now the Matthew Packer statement, which was the one that, um, he was the grocer at the greengrocer, they came in, he was like, buy her, give her all the grapes she would like. That statement fell apart as well. Oh.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He had originally said he saw nothing and no one's strange. But now he was claiming the grape story now that a reward was being offered. And uhm, the police were not offering a reward they were refusing to, which I understand they were like,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Hesitant to do that because they were worried people would do these things, but private citizens were offering rewards and like media was. Also her post mortem showed that she did not have any grape in her system.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, I mean, it was London in 1888, so I think grapes were like, that would have been a great thing to get for her. I mean, I don't think she's eating that grape. So I think grapes would have been like, holy shit, I can have some fresh grapes. Like, sure.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That, that grape story along with the, the myth of her holding onto like a bunch of grapes in her hand.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The whole thing is weird without the grapes, I promise you. Now Dr. George Phillips and Dr. Blackwell were tasked with her post-mortem examination.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The cause of death was listed as violent hemorrhage from severance of blood vessels in the neck by a sharp instrument. She was not mutilated any further and they believed that this was because Jack the Ripper was interrupted.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It says, and this is a quote from the autopsy, the right hand was lying on the chest and was smeared inside and out with blood. It was quite open. The left hand was lying on the ground and was partially closed and it contained a small packet of Cassius wrapped in tissue paper. Those are breath mints.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now there were no rings or marks of rings on her fingers. The appearance of the face was quote placid and the mouth was slightly open.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] There was a checkered scarf, silk scarf around her neck and the bow of which was turned to the left side and pulled tightly.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Times in the Jack the Ripper cases where his knife must be extraordinarily sharp because it frays fabric that it's next to. Oh wow. That happens in a lot of these. So that to me says it's like a very sharp knife. Which...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Whereupon he tried to conceal his face. He's described as a man who wore a short jacket and a sailors hat.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] If you remember, William Marshall, the random witness, saw Elizabeth stride with a man wearing a sailor hat as well. Oh honey, I remember quite well. Oh you remember.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Here, I don't know if I buy Elizabeth's stride as a ripper victim.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Oh, is my ending thing here. Her injuries were done, according to Dr. Phillips, in seconds. That throat cut, he said could have taken less than five seconds. Boom. Done. The throat was quick. And he said it was done with a blunter.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] This is strange to me that he would use a different knife. Right.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] We have a, this is the double event, so within, I mean, so close to this one, he goes.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Crazy on another victim. And because maybe he didn't get to.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That is the, that's the thing that a lot of people hang on to, that that must be why Catherine Eddowes was so brutalized. But then at the same time, uh, we're talking about Whitechapel. Yeah, and it's like...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You think? I don't know. I'm not saying it's definitely it, but to me it feels a little more like it. I don't know if she, I would definitively place her in the canonical five. I don't know if I would keep her. I know she's in there, but I don't know about that one.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I'm not, I'm not super alone in this feeling. There are people who don't believe that Elizabeth Stride is one of them.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So, 1.30am, after the Elizabeth Stride, Elizabeth Stride has been found, the scene has been cleared. At 1.30am, um, police constable for the city police, Edward Watkins, was walking his beat and he walked directly through Mitre Square in Aldgate.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Nothing was out of the ordinary. This is his regular beat that he would just, you know, cause they would, that beat they would take is like the same path, you know.


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[Assistant] Things were, you know, as chaotic as they normally would be at this time. Couldn't see and all that kind of shit. Yeah, all that fun stuff. Uhm, but 14 minutes later.


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[Assistant] A two foot piece of intestines were laid on the ground, cut out of her body, and laid on the ground next to her, between her body and her arm.


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[Assistant] Another larger piece of the intestines was draped over her right shoulder. And if you remember, Annie Chapman. Same thing. Draped over the shoulder.


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[Assistant] He had just walked, like this guy had just walked through here and now he loops around not 15 minutes later and this kind of damage was already done. That is insane. Like that's the thing. It's not like he walked through and he found Elizabeth's stride with her throat cut. Something that could have happened within seconds. Right.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] One was across the street but far away and one was around the corner and probably would have been like no help for lighting purposes where she was. And next to her were three empty homes and across the way, like literally across the street, was the home of patrol, um, police constable Richard Pierce who was asleep.


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[Assistant] Which again, makes you wonder, like, did somebody know that? That's the thing, I wonder if they knew that he lived there and they did that to be like, wake up. Right out your door. Yea, like, look out your window, I just did it right under your bedroom window. Exactly. I think that was part of it.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now nearby was a warehouse, Kearley and Tongs, where a night watchman and former Metropolitan Police force officer named George James Morris was sweeping.


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[Assistant] Watkins ran in there and told him there was another woman in the square. He said she was cut to pieces and that her intestines were tossed, quote, in a heap over her shoulder. And that he was like, I need help. I think the direct quote is he ran in there and was like, for God's sake, man, help me. And he was like, what?


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[Assistant] Harvey showed up and he was shocked. Not only just at the scene in front of him, but because he had actually walked to Mitre Square at 1.40 and had seen nothing.


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[Assistant] He had seen nothing at all. This, she was found at 145. He had walked there at 140, seen nothing at all.


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[Assistant] Harvey was there, like literally there five minutes before and saw nothing and he was adamant, I saw nothing here.


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[Assistant] What the fuck, dude? Now according to Jack the Ripper, Scotland Yard investigates, this would mean Harvey was literally within yards while Jack was murdering this woman.


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[Assistant] Like a scuffle? Like a sling? Like when he took the knife out? Yea. Or like, I think he just, he severs that windpipe so quick that it's just, he can, but for him to do it in the dark, he does this shit in the dark, and he's


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Rough piece of skin almost, like uhm, that it's, you have to,


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[Assistant] When we would do an autopsy, part of it is you remove the bowels and you would start at the bottom of the intestines and you would basically flay away that mesentery so you could pull the intestines out. Otherwise you're tearing and ripping them away from that mesentery.


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[Assistant] Yeah, so it's for him to know to do that because otherwise it would take him a lot longer because he'd be ripping and pulling. You'd hear that and it's hard. It's not easy to do. Like a lot of


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] They would use their hands to rip something away from something else and it makes a very clear sound. Okay. A squish sound at the very least. I said number two. And two, it takes, I mean I worked with like big guys, it takes them muscle to get that out. Right.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, the, uh, cutting the mesentery away from the, the intestines and like removing the bowels was, is one of the things they do like when you first start working there, at least where I work, it's like, that's your like, hey, you're new, you get to do the bowels. And it's like, oh, thank you.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Cause it's like, once you learn how to do it, it becomes very second nature. But they make you do it at first. Cause it's, I mean, it's like one of the more foul jobs of all the evisceration jobs. That's kind of like when I worked at


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It's, cause you like- Same deal. Yeah. It's the, I know in all these, I, I, this is gonna be really gross, but hi, we're in Jack the Ripper and, and I'm an autopsy technician so it's gonna get weird.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, in a lot of reports, they- I'll keep it that weird. I'll keep it that weird. They mention the intestines obviously, that's a very important thing, that it was ripped out, that it was over her shoulder.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] In a lot of them, they mention, like, and there was, like, fecal matter, like, you know, on the intestine, like, they, they do it, like, it's like,


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[Assistant] That part, the ripping out the intestines so fucking quickly and doing it with such like ease and with no


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[Assistant] And not even just doing that. If he just did that, I'd be impressed, but he does a shit ton of other stuff in this small period of time with no light either. Right. And it's really wild. But to my point then, there would have been a noise. There would have been a noise. Exactly. So I think there would have been noises of some kind, even just like,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That was always called like the noise of victory because it means that you, you are able to actually lift the block out. Cause it's hard work. It's like hard to get that.


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[Assistant] Rectum. To everywhere. Yeah. To sternum. And yeah, I don't know. I'm going to be honest with that one. I don't know what they were using as a, uh, a yardstick there, but, but I'll, hey, Dr. Brown said no. They all said none of them appeared to have been sexually assaulted.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Okay, but yeaah, but they were sexually mutilated. But they were sexually, that's the thing, and they all obviously are like, they were very much sexually mutilated, they just weren't like, raped in the, like, you know.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Well, and realistically, he wouldn't have had time with everything else that he did. That's the thing. He definitely wouldn't have. Now, a few police constables looked around the scene and around the body and right next to the body, some buttons from boots, a metal button, a thimble and a mustard tin with two pawn tickets were in it, were found.


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[Assistant] One of the tickets was signed with the surname Kelly.


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[Assistant] And at this point they were like, we don't know who this person is, so this is the only clue we have.


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[Assistant] Now she was brought to Golden Lane Mortuary and she was stripped and washed. Now obviously she was not identified right away because she had no identification on her. So the press, the press published the details of what they found in her pockets. Okay. Because they were thinking, you know,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Hopefully somebody will be like, oh, I know that who carried that stuff around all the time. Or like the pawn shop would be like, she volunteered. Oh, that's what this is. Uhm, in the paper, so they all included all of this, which along with wearing, they said she was wearing basically everything that she owned on her body at the time.


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[Assistant] She probably had to. And she was also carrying pretty much everything she owned at the time. So they wrote this, that this was in her pockets and on her person.


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[Assistant] A piece of string, a common white handkerchief with a red border, a matchbox with cotton on it.


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[Assistant] A white linen pocket containing a white bone handled table knife, very blunt with no blood on it.


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[Assistant] Two short clay pipes, a red cigarette case with red metal fittings, a check pocket containing five pieces of soap, a small tin box containing tea and sugar, a portion of a pair of spectacles, a three cornered check hand, handkerchief and a large white linen pocket containing a small comb, a red mitten and a ball of worsted.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] She was also wearing, like I said, a ton of clothing, many, many layers. She was wearing a black fur-trimmed jacket with an apron tied over the whole thing, a chintz skirt with three flounces,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] A brown linseed dress bodice with a black velvet collar, a gray petticoat,


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[Assistant] A green alpaca skirt, an old blue skirt with a red flounce, a white calico chemise, a men's white vest with buttons down the front, men's lace up boots, a neck handkerchief, and a black straw bonnet that was lined and trimmed with green and black velvet.


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[Assistant] Oh, that's good to know. Thank you. No problem. Now with these details, um, that were published, a man named John Kelly came forward saying he believed it may have been the woman that he had been living with for seven years.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And he said her name is Katherine Etos. She also went by Kate. Since we have been together for this long, sometimes people call her Miss Kelly.


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[Assistant] So Catherine was born April 14th, 1842 in Graysley Green in the West Midlands. She was one of 11 children. Her parents were Catherine and George Eddowes. Her mother was a cook at the Peacock Inn and her father was a tin plate varnisher at the Old Hall Works. I looked this up because I was like, what's a tin plate varnisher?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] We haven't had coffee yet, girl. Can't stop won't stop. I cannot. So eventually, because I was looking this up and he eventually moved the family to London because they were bringing in stamping machines to take over the human tin jobs at the old hall. Like some of the jobs.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So I was like, what? So tin plate workers made beautiful tin products, actually. Like when you see those beautiful trays or plates with intricate designs all over them from the Victorian era. Oh, pretty mom loves those. And like painted designs, and she does, and like painted designs and like gold leaf and such like that.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That's what it was. So George was described as a varnisher and I found that this meant he worked in the area where the beautiful product would come to him. He would apply several coats of varnish to it, stove dry after each coat for varying periods of time until it was all set.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So that was interesting. So in 1848, the family had moved to London where he could get a new job in the same kind of industry. They actually moved to Bermondsey, which is funny considering I just covered the Bermondsey horror recently.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, four more children were born to George and Catherine, but only two survived. Uh, Catherine attended a school called Downgate Charity School, specifically created to train poor children to just be able to get by and stay off the streets.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It wasn't a school where she would learn to you know, be something great or get out of her situation. It was teaching her to have the skills she could use to just keep her head above water.


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[Assistant] Uh, because she was a girl, she wasn't taught math or anything that was actually going to aid her in any kind of business venture. Nice. She was just taught sewing in the Bible, essentially.


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[Assistant] Now she was, Catherine was tiny, adorable with curly auburn hair and apparently a sweet and lovely human. Everyone called her chick because she was so tiny and she loved to sing.


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[Assistant] This singing voice was something she carried into adulthood and people commented on her beautiful voice her entire life. Wow. Uh, when Catherine was 13 her mother died of tuberculosis and 13 years old and her father died two years later. Oh man.


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[Assistant] Yeah, unfortunately this meant the younger siblings were all split up and put into workhouses in schools like the ones Catherine was attending. Uh, the older siblings were trying to make sure their siblings were, you know, could keep, basically just get good work, stay out of trouble, like they were trying to become the parents.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, they were, her older siblings were able to get her, Catherine, in with her aunt Elizabeth and Uncle William, who was her father's brother. Oh good. Uh, they were happy to take her in, they were like, we're gonna get her work as like a domestic servant or something in Wolverhampton.


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[Assistant] She was kind, she was sweet, she acted as a surrogate, uhm, and this is Aunt Elizabeth, acting like a surrogate mother for Catherine, like, it was all great.


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[Assistant] Uhm, and she was in a nice clean living space, living in a nice home. There were opportunities. The home was on Bilston Street and everyone around the community came to know and really love Catherine.


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[Assistant] She was restless though. She wasn't the kind of gal to just settle into a boring job and be content. She was definitely destined to do something more, but was obviously just not given every opportunity to do it.


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[Assistant] And it feels like that is really the thing with a lot of these women. I've said it before. That's the theme throughout. They're restless. They're not content to just sit. Nope. Now around this time when she was 16, she met a man named Thomas Conway.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He was from Kilgiver, Lewisburg, County Mayo in Ireland, and he was older than her, and a soldier in the Royal Irish Regiment.


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[Assistant] Allegedly. Allegedly. This was all it took. Her aunt and uncle kicked her out of the house. Oh man. Yeah. So I don't know how much, how allegedly it was. It feels like there might've been some, uh, might've known that that happened, but you know.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] She moved in with another uncle, Thomas Eddowes, in Birmingham, and she lasted even less time there, and ended up moving back to Wolverhampton with her grandfather, who got her a job as a tin stamper.


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[Assistant] Literally only a couple of weeks later, she quit and went back to Birmingham. Oh, it was probably a lot. Yeah. This is where she moved in with none other than her old crush, Thomas Conway. Oh my goodness. The flame flickered off.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] At this time, he had been pensioned from the military because he had gotten sick, but he was healthier now. So now the two of them got together and they started traveling all over together.


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[Assistant] Uh, creating gallows ballads. What is that? They wrote and printed songs and poems about murderers who were about to be hanged.


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[Assistant] Oh shit, that's very ironic. So they traveled to different jails and literally sold these to people watching a public execution, and apparently they made some good money at it. Wow. And there were a lot of hangings at this time.


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[Assistant] The couple were not officially married, but Catherine went by Catherine Conway and would describe Thomas as her husband. Okay. She seemed very in love. Aww.


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[Assistant] The couple was very intense and Catherine got TC tattooed on her forearm in blue ink. Are you shitting me? I love it. She was a rebel.


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[Assistant] They had two children, two daughters named Annie and Catherine Anne. I didn't even realize, sorry, that tattoos could happen. Yeah, it was like a thing. Yeah, back then. Now in 1866, they actually did a gallows ballad for her cousin, Christopher Charles Robinson, who was hanged for murdering his fiance in cold blood.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The family was in and out of workhouses now around these times and money was not coming in at all. August 1873 while living in St. George's workhouse, Catherine had another baby boy named Alfred George.


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[Assistant] Things went from bad to worse. Things were bleak now and both Thomas and Catherine were drinking heavily. It seemed the only way to cope with the horrid times that they were living in. But Thomas was an asshole when he drank.


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[Assistant] The real Thomas came out and he was violent and would beat Catherine when he was drunk.


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[Assistant] And he kept Thomas and Alfred George and she took Annie and Catherine. So they split the kids.


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[Assistant] She asked if she could live with her aunt Elizabeth and uncle William again for the time being, but they said absolutely not because you fucked up hard when you were living with us and you're not coming back.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Okay, allegedly. Very, uh, tough love. She was on the streets now in London and she was, and I think the kids were kind of like staying with friends a lot of the time. Yeah. Uh, her kids had like very, you know, uhm, they had very, uh, conflicting things to say. One of them felt one way about her and the other one felt the other way.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Her two daughters that she got to keep. Yeah. Uh, but they were with friends a lot. I don't think they were with Catherine all that much. Now she was on the streets of London now. She was drinking even more heavily and this was really the beginning of the end.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So she began getting arrested for drunk and disorderly behavior, a lot, and started sex work as a means of getting even just enough money to put a roof over her head. It's kind of, unfortunately, a similar tale to a lot of the victims. It was during this time that she found herself chatting with a man at Spittlefield's Market.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] His name was John Kelly. Yeah. And he had recently become a widow. He was, he had lost his wife. He was kind, he was sweet, and he just wanted to make her happy. Okay. He was also sober.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So she was also suffering from Bright's disease. What is that? Now we would call it nephritis and it's an inflammation of the nephrons in the glomeruli, which help the kidneys produce urine. They're part of the kidneys.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So she would have probably been suffering from a lot of symptoms associated with it, including shortness of breath, back and flank pain, fluid retention in her hands and her face. It would have been like kind of tough, like exhaustion. Yeah. So she, I had no idea that one of them was suffering from that. So she was sick. Now,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I think it was pretty, well, this was uhm, kind of the beginning of fall at this point, I suppose, like end of summer. She was warm and not too hot. Now that's, again, that's why she was found with so many layers, because she was wearing them all.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now the deputy of the 55 Flower and Dean Street place, Frederick William Wilkinson, said that Catherine was quote, a very jolly woman. She was described as a very jolly woman by a lot of people. Very jovial.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And confirm- he confirmed that she and John Kelly lived like they were married. Later he would be the one to give John Kelly an airtight alibi for being at the lodging home at night the evening that Catherine was murdered. He was like no, he was here all night.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] They drifted together, they drifted like together and solo in and out of workhouses and lodging houses. Sometimes they would be staying together, sometimes they wouldn't. They would spend a lot of time apart, but just drift back together again. Or as John described it later, quote, be throwed together a lot. She would often beg and borrow money from her daughters who were now grown.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, in the summer of 1888, they were com- they were common law married at this point. Yeah.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] A lot of people from London and Whitechapel did this. They would go do the hop picking and they would make some extra money. You know, this was a nice reprieve from the horrific air and conditions that they were living in in the city. That 40 mile walk was a nice reprieve. Exactly. But once they got it, you need to know. It's true.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But this was the first time that they were apparently together, like together together all the time and could not escape each other. And they were not getting along that great. Well, I was going to say maybe that's why they weren't together together so much. Exactly. So they ended up, they did it. They, they made a little money, not a lot ended up.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Coming back, they left September 27th without a lot to show for it, but you know.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] They split up the night they arrived back at London, didn't split up like break up. They just kind of like went their separate ways. Whoa. Exactly. John Kelly went to stay at the lodging house on Flower and Dean street and Catherine ended up having to go to a couple of workhouses and do manual labor for her stays.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, apparently September 28th, she told the manager of Mile End Workhouse, quote, I have come back to earn the reward offered for the apprehension of the white chapel murderer. I think I know him. Oh. And they were just like,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Okay. They were like, who is he? And he's like, she's like, I don't know. And then they were like, be careful not to become a victim of him out there. And she said, oh, no fear of that.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now September 29th, um, John Kelly and Catherine met for breakfast. They had breakfast together, kind of went their own separate ways, but they planned to meet back up later that day. Uh, when they did see each other again, it was around 2 PM. Catherine said she was going to try to go to Bermondsey to see her daughter Annie and ask for money.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, and she told John that she would be back in Whitechapel around 4pm and we can meet up then. I don't know how that went, but she certainly wasn't rolling back into Whitechapel at 4pm in good condition. She was seen on something that they called Prostitutes Island.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Where a lot of women would stand on to try to solicit clients, I suppose. She was very drunk at this time, and according to the hidden lives of Jack the Ripper victims, she was, many sources say and reports say, she was pretending to do an imitation of a fire engine. Okay.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Interesting tidbit I found. Uhm, there was this blog and I will link to this blog because it was really good. It was called the History Girls Blog Spot. Uhm,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] This is at least an interesting explanation for what Catherine was actually going through when she, they said she was doing a drunken impersonation of a fire engine. This is just like a take on it. Cause I was like, what is that? What is a drunken imitation of a fire engine even like? Do you want me to do one? Like, what would it be?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I assume they would have some kind of, well I don't know what they say. Well they would, but I just don't know if it would sound like they did now. Now, this is interesting, according to the writer of this blog, who I believe is named Lori, but I'm not positive, uhm, she posited that maybe due to her kidney issues, which would have left her short of breath, maybe she was huffing and puffing like a steam engine,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Or maybe she was just drunk and completely out of control and just making a lot of noise.


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[Assistant] It was basically like a very empathetic possible point of view to share and I just thought it was like a very interesting one and it was one that was looking at her as less of just a drunk.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You know. Person. Person of the night. Yeah. And instead making her a human who was suffering and maybe was just going with it.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Or maybe she was just fucking hilarious. Exactly. It's, it's just like, basically I kept seeing the fire engine imitation thing and I was like, well, I don't know what that looks like. One. And then two, I was like, I just, I think that's like a different point of view. And it's just interesting because you won't know, but it's just something to think about. And it again reminds you to look at her as somebody who was suffering.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So, she was arrested that night at 8.30pm when a police constable named George Simmons and another one named Louis Robinson found her on the ground on Aldgate High Street and she was out, cold.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Not good. So she was taken to the Bishopsgate police station, very intoxicated at this time. They asked her her name and she replied, nothing.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Which okay. She was put in a cell to sober up because they would just put you in a cell, wait for a while and be like, you good? And then just let you out. Girl, they still do. It's the drunk tank. But everyone who interacted with her at the station that night said she smelled very strongly of drink and could not stand up on her own at all. So she was in a bad way that night.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I love that they just say of drink. Of drink. Uh, at 12, 15 am she woke up and they heard her singing softly to herself.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And like this beautiful voice. And that's just what she would do. She would sing softly to herself. Around 12, 30 a.m. she said, hey,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] When are you going to let me out of here? Oh, I wish they hadn't. They said when you're able to take care of yourself, we'll let you out of here. So around 1am, they let her out. She told them before they left, she left, they were like, we need to know your name address.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] She said her name was Mary Ann Kelly. Okay. And that she lived at 6 Fashion Street in Spittlefields. Okay. So PC George Hutt let her leave, and when she did, she turned and said, good night old cock.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Oh, if they had kept her, she would have been probably around. It's really sad.


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[Assistant] But this is interesting. She did say, and this is in the official reports everywhere you read this, she did say, I shall get a damned fine hiding when I get home.


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[Assistant] And George Hutt replied, which I was like, okay George, he wrote, and serve you right, you have no right to get drunk.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Fuck off! Which, that wasn't even like the, but that's like, fuck you George, but also I'm like, so was John Kelly abusing her?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Maybe. Like, was that, I'm like, who are you talking about? Or was she just drunk and she was thinking she was going home to Thomas Conway? Uh, yeaah. Maybe she was like, oh, because they did say.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So maybe she was still drunk and thinking like back to when she lived with Thomas Conway and like, oh, I'm gonna get home and he's gonna hurt me.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, just a very strange comment, I thought. Considering John Kelly, by all accounts, was not said to be an abuser. Hmm. Were there a lot of accounts though?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So I don't know for sure, none of us do, but it's a very strange comment. I just thought it was weird. I mean, a lot of people were hitting their wives back then. They were, that's the thing. And I'm like, was this just like a normal comment to make? Probably, but like horrible.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now, it was just interesting, so at 135, she was spotted by witnesses Joseph Levy and Harry, uh, Harry Harris at the corner of Duke Street and Church Passage, which was an avenue that led into Mitre Square.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That's where she would later be found. She was talking to a man, according to them, very closely. She had her hand on his chest.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He was said to be medium build, about 5'7", and somewhere in the area of 30 years old. He was fair-complected with a mustache. We heard this in a lot of the other ones.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He was wearing a grayish jacket with a red scarf or neck handkerchief and a gray cloth hat with a peak. Heard that before too. This is a hat that's almost like a Scally cap, like almost like a Peaky Blinder hat, but it's got like a little more height to it. Okay. Like almost like a Newsboy cap, I guess you would say. Like one of those. Yeah, yeah.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, I'm trying to like, is that what that is? Yea, you're right. Now, Levy said that he, when he, they passed by them, Levy had said, he said to Harris, look there, I don't like going home by myself when I see those characters about. Right. Like he was just like, ugh. He later said, he was like, I wasn't nervous or like thinking they were going to hurt me.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] 1.45am, only about 10 minutes later, she was discovered, ravaged and disemboweled on the street in the dark.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now while removing her clothing, doctors found a piece of her ear when it dropped out of her, the fabric of her clothing. Just dropped on the ground.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah. Dr. Brown performed the autopsy, but present, um, but present to observe the whole thing was Dr. George William Saquera, Dr. Phillips and Dr. William Sanders.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now when he began the examination, he noticed that both eyelids had been sliced open, like vertically. Uh, the left one had a quarter inch slice through the lower lid and the right was sliced all the way through.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] There was also a very deep laceration that began at the bridge of her nose and extended across her right cheek to her jaw. It had cut down to the bone in her face.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The tip of her nose was sliced off and her upper lip was also cut in half down to the gum, which was sliced underneath it.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Her mouth was sliced at the right side of it up into her cheek and both of her cheeks underneath her eyes had little triangular cuts with the, that the skin flapped over. Okay. Like very deliberate cuts, triangles under her eyes.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Which was not seen in any other ones. No. Now the cut to the abdomen that completely eviscerated her was jagged and described as zigzagged.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But from a sketch I saw in Scotland Yard Investigates, it looks to me like more of an attempt to avoid slicing the belly button in half.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And why would you not want to do that? So this is what, so here's the thing. The cut extends from the breastbone down to the groin pelvic bone and it takes a quick detour from its straight path when it hits that navel.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And I'm just speaking from my experience with, um, eviscerating, but when we would start the eviscerations.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And begin with the Y shaped incision, we would intentionally divert the cut around the belly button before bringing it back down to the pelvic area. It was just a thing we did to not split the navel in half. Okay, that's all. To me, this indicates that it could possibly be someone who has performed an autopsy before.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And their muscle memory causes them to eviscerate like that because they've been doing it like that.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I know this is murder and not a clinical evisceration, but if they are used to doing that, it may just be habit. If I'm going to cut a body open, this is how I do it. Just doesn't even think about it. Just whoop takes that detour. I would never.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Just, I would never, I don't think my brain would let me after hundreds of autopsies.