[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Her torso, she had to toe is just covered in bruises, slashes, two human bite marks. Oh my god. And her, this is...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Oh no. How many times did you get a call when you were younger to go to your neighbor's house? What the fuck happened?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now, going back to the scene, a lot of the cuts made to Kelly's torso were consistent with a blade that was the size and shape of the bayonet. But also at the same time,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Many of them were not consistent with the bayonet, which led detectives to believe that there was a second or possibly even third weapon missing from the scene.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Detective Lane had seen the body when they pulled it from beneath the basement stairs, and he theorized that whoever had done this to Kelly had to be a very large, very powerful person. And very vicious, awful, savage person.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So based on all the testimony collected that day, the only people in the house that previous afternoon were John Jay, those two friends, and 21-year-old bodybuilder Robert.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So Detective Jack Sharkey was assigned the task of interviewing McDonald and Chris Earl, John Jay's two friends, who had been at the house that afternoon.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] They confirmed that they had all been there, and just like John Jay said, they played video games before they left to go play basketball.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] No, after their interview, both boys actually consented to a polygraph test, and they both passed, quote unquote, with flying colors.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Since Donald and Earl were now crossed off the list of suspects, the only two remaining possibilities were John and Robert.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And since his friends had confirmed that John Jay had been with them that afternoon,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Detective Lane decided to focus his attention on the older brother Robert.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And he said he went to a convenience store to purchase a bodybuilding magazine.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So that afternoon, he spent time with his brother, his mother's friends, and he said after the younger boys left to play basketball, he went back up to his room, he drank a couple of beers, and smoked some weed.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And he said that he never seen, he had never seen or spoken to Kelly that afternoon. And in fact, he really only knew her well enough anyways to say hi.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It's like, weird, why was she in her house then? I totally believe you.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But he did say that Kelly had been close with his younger brother John and that she quote, sometimes called the go- uh, the goleb home twice a day to speak to John Jay. Okay. So I do wonder if there was like a little bit of like,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So when police showed Robert the bayonet used in the attack on Kelly, he said he never owned it and had actually never seen it before. And as far as he knew, nobody in the house did either. Oh, a bayonet just showed up in your house one day? A World War I bayonet, just like essentially an antique.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] When the examiner noticed that Robert was trying to mess with the results by holding his breath at various points. Of course he was.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You don't think the examiner is not going to see you holding your breath? Their entire job is to examine every single little thing that sets your body off to make it that you're lying. And you think that holding your breath is going to somehow get past that?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So while detectives interviewed the rest of the neighbors on Horton Road, the crime scene technicians continued this absolutely crazy job of just- Oh my god, the daunting task. The daunting task of, because this scene is brutal anyways, and then- Yeaah.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now while they were searching, there were a few significant items found in the basement.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] There were two briefcases that contained Kelly's clothes that she was wearing the day before. Random briefcases. That's so weird.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, now each case of the brief, each of the briefcases had some blood smeared on the outside and on the inside, but it was going to take some time to determine whether that had come from Kelly or her killer. So they were, they had their work laid out.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now the autopsy was performed the following day, and actually there was a few people in attendance. There was Detective Richard Wells, the medical examiner Dr. Thanning, a serologist named Dr. Arlene Colon, and then the chief medical examiner Dr. Leslie Lukash. Now thankfully, like I was just saying,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Tests actually found no evidence of semen on the surface of Kelly's body or internally. Uhm, and there was no other signs of sexual assault.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Okay, so pre-mortem, she was, or peri-mortem, either one, she was not? She was not. Okay.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now unfortunately though, the medical examiner wasn't able to find any fingerprints present on the body.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, but the chief medical examiner, Dr. Lukasz, determined the cause of death was blunt force trauma to the skull. But after identifying more than 200, and this isn't quotes, 200 discrete blows to her head, the medical examiner had to stop counting. 200? More than 200.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I don't need, I don't, I literally, like my brain isn't computing that. I don't even know how that's possible. The randomness of this act is just like, I don't know if maybe that's why it's one of the most requested cases. It's like.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] 100 had to stop counting at 200. Close to her head. Yeah.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Exactly, like that is animalistic behavior. That is.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That's not even of this world, like I can't even.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Think about hitting something 200 times, how long that takes. No, I can't imagine. Just think about like taking your hand and hitting a table 200 times. No.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So based on the evidence collected at the scene, Lukasz believed that the blunt force trauma was consistent with the antique rifle found at the scene.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I mean you get to 200 blows, you can't fit an instrument there, like you don't know what that was after a certain point. Cause you're not even seeing distinct wounds at that point. Exactly. Like, oh my god.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now the slicing moon to the neck, to the neck, excuse me, was a match for the bayonet. But there also appeared to be an indenta- and this is again brutal.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Lay the blade across Kelly's throat and then stand the full weight of his body on the knife, bouncing up and down.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You have to. I have never heard anything like this. Never in my entire life, and you have to hope.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] We have covered some of the worst of the worst of the worst


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And I cannot compare this killer to anyone I have ever read about. This is just like- Like my arms this entire time are just covered. This is stuff you can't make up. No. Like this is stuff that if you saw it in a horror movie, you'd be like, who comes up with that? You'd be like, I don't like want to watch anything by this person ever again. Like no one's like that. No. Oh my god. No.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So I'm like, don't even think I said that. So when the examination was complete, Dr. Lukasz concluded that Kelly's murder had to have been committed by somebody in a frenzy.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, to say the least. Yup. And could only have been done by a quote unquote incredibly fit and powerful man. Jesus.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So given the amount of evidence collected at the scene and the story being told by Kelly's body, Detective Lane and Wells kept their attention focused on the most obvious suspect, Robert, uh, Gallup, right? No, Gallup, dammit. Gallup. Gallup. Uhm, he was brought into the station at this point for ques- er,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So John and Elizabeth had been cooperating with the police up to this point.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So, days passed without an arrest, and the public was starting to grow anxious that there might literally never be another resolution.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And Kelly's parents, Richard and Victoria, must have been losing their goddamn minds. Seriously. Because you know what happened. She went into that house, she was found there, so why hasn't somebody been arrested yet? Exactly. I would have been like... Oh my god, I'd be losing my fucking mind. And they were.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] No, in the meantime, forensic tests were being conducted and the results, I mean, remember this is the eighties, the results were very slow to return. But when they did come.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] They seemed to confirm that Robert was involved in the killing, but there were complications.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] For one thing, there was a handprint discovered near the body that did belong to Robert.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And then the blood smears on the cases where Kelly's clothes had been found were also determined to be Robert's blood.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But given that again, it was his home, there was no way for uhm, analysts to determine whether it was left there the day of the killing or a day or two before. Like, yeaah.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I don't know who would think that that got left there. But sure. To bring it to court, you gotta go beyond a reasonable doubt.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now when Robert was brought in for questioning on the day of the murder, he actually had several small cuts on his right hand.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Oh. But those cuts they said showed no signs of having blood recently. Hmm.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Which is weird, but I'm like, I mean, how do you really determine that? Like if he has cuts on his hand, he has cuts on his hand. Yeah, he does. Right? Like, how can you tell if they bled recently? They're red?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I mean you could really, the only thing I can think of is like what stage of healing they're in. That's really all I could. Yeaah.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Right, exactly. So essentially, while he may have looked very guilty, a good lawyer could have explained a bulk of the physical evidence as to being no different than skin cells, fingerprints, and trace fluids that everybody leaves around their house every day.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But on March 24th, nearly three weeks after Kelly's body had been discovered in the basement, investigators did finally feel like they had enough evidence to make an arrest. And Robert was arrested. Wow.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now, it was a step in the right direction, but still people in the community were pissed off. Like, they were very frustrated.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Kelly's uncle Robert told the press, we feel only a fraction of relief about the arrest. There are so many unanswered questions that are hurting right now. Four people in the house and no one heard anything? Yeaah.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That's what's so shocking to me. I'm like, what the fuck is going on in that house? No one heard anything? Yeaah. Like, is the basement soundproof? That kind of beating? But then you think about the loud music and-


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I'm like- Oh, the loud music. That- Is that why nobody heard anything? Because it was so loud that Richie could hear it outside. Oh my god. That adds such a different layer to this. It's like a horror film. It is. This is like so bad. It is.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So, those unanswered questions and frustrations grew, or grew, excuse me, exponentially in the time between the arrest and the trial.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] While Robert spent his days in prison, he was like lifting weights on the yard or preparing in his cell for trial. A lot was going on back home.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Their home was being referred to as a murder house because that's what it was.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And their harassment had actually become so intense that they had to send John Jay off to a private boarding school. Oh wow. Which...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] If he had nothing to do with this, then you do feel bad that that happened. Of course.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And Elizabeth claimed that actually she was being sexually harassed around town at this point. So it is a...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The whole full blown mess. It is like uhm, the neighbors that hate each other. The, you know, it's all this time. Oh, the Hatfields and McCoys. Thank you. It's that, literally. I loved that little like hand motion you were doing. I knew it would get you eventually. Just flowy hands and I was like, got it. You were like, I don't know what you're saying. Nailed it.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The Hatbills and the McCoys. Yeaah. Yeaah. That's exactly what they said. That makes sense.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Robert's defense lawyer John Lewis, he was hard at work trying to get.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] A ton of critical evidence excluded from trial. Of course.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Prior to trial, uhm, a fry hearing was held to determine whether the DNA evidence collected at the scene


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Mostly from the outside of the briefcases and the palm print on the wall.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] They wanted to see it in this trial if it would be allowed at the murder trial.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now for those that don't know because I didn't know, a fry hearing according to Cornell Law School, quote, determines the admissibility of an expert scientific testimony and other types of evidence.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So back then, you weren't seeing a lot of cases where DNA was being used. In fact, Kelly's was actually one of the first cases in America where DNA was used. Wow, really? Yea, isn't that crazy? That's interesting.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now, so they had to have that hearing to see like what was going to be admissible and what wasn't.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So, John Lewis argued that DNA science was still in its infancy and it was unreliable. Oh. DNA evidence. Didn't know.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But the prosecution presented several experts who testified that quote, DNA fingerprinting is a reliable scientific theory that is generally accepted in the scientific community and that


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The six step procedure used to extract and analyze DNA samples is also generally accepted in the scientific community. I love this, that they're like, DNA is generally accepted in the scientific community. They're like, so there. Yea, it feels alright.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So there were more pre-trial hearings that took place in mid-August and the tensions were insanely high. There was a lot of fighting going on between the families. There were fights within the courtroom. I would be throwing hands. Oh yea, I'd be furious. People had to be escorted out and then more problems were to come in October.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He actually got into an argument with the judge that was presiding over the case, Judge Marvin Goodman.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And the defense attorney Lewis told the judge that he wasn't prepared to go to trial that month.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And he wanted to push out to January to get, to have more time to prepare. Oh yeah, yeah. Who gives a shit about the families that have to sit here and deal with this shit? Thank you. Exactly. Let's, let's push it out because I'm not ready. I'm not ready. Sorry. It's like, sorry. You've had plenty of time. Yeah. Like you do. If you don't have a good case, it's because, uh, he did it. Yeah. The end.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The end. Also, so says I. So says I. I would top my little gavel.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But the judge denied that request, basically saying everything that we did and saying he hadn't provided a legal reason for it, so like.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] No. Just cause you're not prepared isn't my fault. Exactly, that's probably exactly what he said.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Hopefully I said that right. So Robert's trial for the second degree murder of Kellyanne began on February 15th, 1990. Yeah.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So, wow. And it took place in, uhm, I don't know what time it was. Manola, New York? Yeaah, totally.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So in opening statements, the prosecutor, Daniel Cotter, laid out the extent of the evidence, including the massive DNA evidence that linked Robert to the murder. My god. He also detailed the extent of Kelly's injuries and he paid particular attention to the mutilation of


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Like eviscerated. Eviscerated. And one of the bite marks was actually to her backside, like on her bum. God, you fucking animal. And happened post-mortem. Holy shit.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So, Cotter told the jury because of all this, it is fair to assume that this is a sexual assault by a male.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Five. Five, wow, that's it? Uhm, I'm like, you're old. It was 1990, right? Yeah. Yeah, five.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, that's upsetting. Isn't that upsetting? That's really upsetting. But like I said, this was a time in America where DNA really hadn't been used in a ton of court cases. Yeah.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] To get a guilty verdict anyways. Yeah, it's hard to say. So he was definitely hoping that all this scientific garbage. Oh yeah. Hollabaloo was going to go over the jury's head.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But just in case it didn't, he also tried to put doubt in their minds about everybody there that day and told the jury, there were three other boys in the house that day who could have done this, right? They were there right around the time of the murder. I'm like, there are three 14 year olds. They are all the same size. Yeah. I don't think so. Truly.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] No. Now luckily, Prosecutor Cotter there was able to shoot down that argument by pointing out how unlikely it would be for three 14 year old boys to commit, quote,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Kelly entered the house shortly after 3.20pm, I would say.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That she would have been in the house alone with Robert. So that makes me wonder, was it John Jay that called or was it Robert pretending he was John Jay, knowing that his brother had been maybe like flirting with Kelly and they had all gone out to go play basketball and he saw some kind of opportunity.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That to me, that makes sense. Right? To me it makes sense that this little fucker would pretend to be his little brother to lure her to that house. Oh, 100%. That's what I think. Because I don't see


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I don't know anything about this family, I don't know anything about this pig and his brother, but I don't know if it makes sense that like,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] This kid would just lure her there, especially if he liked her. If he was sweet on her, exactly. Like they had some kind of thing. And then he's gonna leave, like if anything you would think he would, if he was the one that called her.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I feel like, and if she liked him, they would have gone and played basketball together. Yeaah. You know?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Obviously saw Kelly around town, probably developed some kind of weird fucking fascination. Because he's a figure, he's a fucking troll.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, beyond even- Pigman. Beyond words. True pigman. Yuckas. Yuckas McGee. Disgusting. Is the new name. Truly.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now, over the course of the next few weeks, jurors were presented with a whole slew of information and, uh, evidence.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Can't imagine having to sit on this jury. No. I, I can't. Having to hear about those injuries in real time would be...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Outrageous. And they did have to because the doctor, the medical examiner took the stand to testify about the extent of the injuries.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And place the death somewhere between 330 and 820. I'm thinking it was closer to the 320 range of things.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, and the doctor also testified that while a lot of the slice injuries were caused by the rusty bayonet,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] There were others caused by at least two additional instruments that were unaccounted for. Then another expert, excuse me, the serologist Dr. Arlene Colon explained,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now according to this doctor, the investigators had found several spots of Robert's blood.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Mixed with or adjacent to Kelly's blood, meaning that quote,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Kelly's killer had his own blood on his hands when he was attempting to clean up after Kelly's death. Which makes sense. Of course it does. Like he's not coming out of there with no scratches on his hands. Absolutely not.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So the analysis of the palm print that was discovered on a piece of crown molding near the basement closet.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Was also a match for the robber- uh, for Robert, excuse me.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And a crime scene analyst testified that the print was most likely left there very shortly after Kelly was murdered. He must, he probably like leaned up against the wall to move her.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So after closing arguments on April 2nd 1990, the jury deliberated for a full day.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now, he retur- returned, I was gonna say re-entered.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He returned to court on June 1st for sentencing.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And so did four of the alternates who had also sat through the trial. They wanted to see this motherfucker sentenced. Holy, I don't blame them.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The court also received over a thousand letters from the public demanding that he be sentenced to life in prison.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Who let Kelly into our home? Who could have had an emotive? These are questions I have to answer. These are questions the jury should have considered.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He said that there was a police conspiracy to convict him, the jury was against him, they hadn't behaved properly.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] No dictionary contains sufficient words to describe the brutality of your act.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Unfortunately, the sentence option given to me by all of our laws falls short of the sentence which you truly deserve. You are hereby sentenced to a maximum term of life and to a minimum term of 25 years. Which would not even be slightly enough. So 25 years to life. Like, not enough. No.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now, Robert, uh, appealed his conviction in 1993 thinking that that was really gonna move anybody, it didn't.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, he said it was on the grounds that the evidence was mishandled, the analysis of the DNA was improper, cause he knows how to do that. Oh yeaah. And the, uhm,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] No, that was just it. But the appeals court upheld the conviction. Good.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now, he maintained his innocence until his case came up for consideration by the parole board in 2013.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I knew it. But like, I've seen people on steroids. You've seen people on steroids. That is more than just steroids. You have a beast that lives inside of you. I was just gonna say. That was then fed those steroids. That was fed those steroids. That's a perfect way of saying it. Exactly. It is very much already


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Inside of you. It is inside every cell in your body that you were able to do that. Anabolic steroids did not create that. Did not cause you to do that. No. They allowed that beast to come out. Exactly. That's all of us. Exactly.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Knowing full well that you are going to a place that is literally worse than hell. I hope she haunts you until the minute you die. Every single second. Truly. Of every single day. I hope Kelly haunts you.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You don't have the same shit that everybody else does. Remorse is not, it's a vocabulary word to you, it's not a feeling. If you can do that to a human, there is no part of me that believes you are capable of remorse. No. Not one part of me that believes that. Absolutely not.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Luckily, state parole officials were as unconvinced as we are, and Robert has since been denied parole on two different occasions. I hope they tell him to go fuck himself every single time.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I, this is like, the worst, one of the worst. The most brutal.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I think I can, I mean that is- I don't think I could ever cover another case like this.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now, in the year since Kelly's murder, her parents, Richard and Victoria, they hold a celebration on her birthday, March 5th, every single year to remember her.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He still hopes that he's gonna get some kind of parole, uh, he's not going to.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I hope you slowly rot. But Richard and Victoria and countless other members of Valley Stream are


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Locked and loaded with victim impact statements and letters demanding he remain in prison.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] In the interest of public safety. Uh, yeah. Like not only just for their peace of mind, like not wanting to see him ever again. But he should never be allowed around people. Ever again. If you can do that one time, I can't fucking imagine what you would do.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] If you, like, didn't live in your parents' house and were left to your own devices. Yes, I can't even fathom. Cause you did that in your parents' home. Well, that's what's wild to me. Just went down to the basement.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That's awful. That is awful. That is a brutal case. I think, uhm, were you gonna do something spooky?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeaah, you know what, I'm gonna follow this up with something, maybe like uhm, a spooky road. Or a lake. Or a lake or something. You'll know obviously, but like, it's...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Feels, feels good, especially after this. I need it. I need it. Yeaah. I need a beat. So yeaah, look out for that. And with that being said guys, we hope you keep listening. And we hope you keep it weird. You know I'm not saying anything. No. That's it. Nope. That's a wrap. Bye. Goodbye. Love you guys. Hope you have a great day.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Decades before Anna Delvey began scamming her way into high society, Christian Karl Gerhard's writer was infiltrating America's most elite circles with little more than a fake name and a lot of charm.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Bold, ruthless, and willing to kill, Gerhard's writer embarked on a caper across the West Coast, successfully evading the FBI for decades. Hi, I'm Saachi Cole, co-host of Wondry's podcast, Scamfluencers, where we unpack the lives and schemes of some of the biggest scammers and con artists.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] In our recent two-part series, Three Weddings and a Funeral, High Society's top social circles become a playground for a fraudster. Follow Scamfluencers wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen ad-free on the Amazon Music or Wondry app.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Hey Prime members, you can listen to Morbid early and ad free on Amazon Music. Download the app today.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Hey weirdos, I'm Elena. And I'm Ash. And this is Morbid.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It's reality. It's reality. It's reality. I'm trying to get on that show. Have I told you that? Drag Race? Yea, I wanna be a guest judge. You should be a guest judge. I'm just saying it out loud because I'd like to manifest it and I would like all of you to reach out to the production team and tell them that I should get to go. Use it. Be a guest judge. There you go. You wanna come with me?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] We are having a new podcast join our little fuckin' family. And it's called That Was Pretty Scary. It's hot.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I dig. I know, I'm so excited for that. That was pretty scary. Such a fucking cool, exciting new show. Yeah, it's a cool concept. You guys are gonna love it.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The Unlookout, and I don't really know when this episode is coming out to be honest with you. I have no idea. But next week you should definitely come to Obituaries live show with us. It's gonna be in Somerville. A bunch of us from the Morbid Network are going. Hell yea we are. To support our brother and sister.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So yea. If you haven't got your tickets, go get em. Go get, if you haven't got your tickets, go get em, they're selling faaast.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Well, that was the perfect amount of time to tell that story and for me to get this into a double space thing where I can read it cause I'm blind. Woo! Alright, I don't know if I can say this person's name so I'm just gonna start out with their tale which is entitled Listener Tale. My mom beat up a serial rapist. Your mom's a badass. That got our attention. Yeah it did.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Alright, it says, Hi, I'm a big fan of True Crime and I love listening to your podcast, so thanks for all the wild stories. You're welcome. You're welcome, and thank you for listening to our podcast.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] On a Saturday morning in 2008, my mom, her partner, I'm gonna call him D because I'm not sure if he wants me to share his name, and I, were sitting in the kitchen making coffee. I was seven at the time and we were waiting for a friend of my mom's who was bringing her son over to have a playdate with me.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Since we were expecting them any minute, my mom had left the front door wide open and just told them to come in when they arrived. As she was waiting for the coffee to be ready, we all heard a noise in the next room and my mom got up to see if it was our friends. A second later we heard her scream.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He pushed her against the wall. Oh my god, and pulled off her pants. Oh my god.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I kept looking back at the back door and it was a really scary moment because I wasn't sure if I would see my mom again until a few seconds later she ran out of the house in her nightgown. I stood in place wanting to wait for her.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But she screamed at me to keep going, so I turned around and I ran faster than I've ever ran before.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] She caught up, we all kept running, and halfway down the block we ran into our friend's house who were casually strolling toward our house for a Saturday morning playdate and breakfast.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] They turned around and we all booked it to the nearby grocery store where we were met by the police. They drove us back to our house in the back of a police car, but by the time we got there, the attacker was gone.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] There were cops in the house for the rest of the day dusting for fingerprints and gathering evidence. They asked the same questions over and over and over again to me, my mom, and Dee, and they took me to a child psychologist to be interviewed again. My mom was called in for a few lineups, but not able to identify him because he'd been wearing a ski mask.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So that's my story about my family's run-in with a teenage rapist, and most of all, my mom being a powerful, amazing bad bitch that is NOT to be fucked with. PS, thanks for reading. Holy shit.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] If you had the chance to be brought back to life hundreds of years in the future, would you take it?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Lawrence Pilgrim, a lifelong scientist, planned for death his entire life. Because for him, death wasn't the end.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It was just the beginning. Wondery's new podcast, Frozen Head, tells the story of a man obsessed with immortality and the lengths he'll go to bring his wife with him against her wishes, tearing their family apart in the process.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That was crazy. As soon as you said she said get out, I was like, wait a second, I think she's like,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Poop Zach. Alright, my next one is called Listener Tale. Girl in the Pit. Girl in the Pit. So fitting for me.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I have been enjoying all the listener tales and really wanted to share with y'all the scariest encounter I have ever had. Hell yea. Please feel free to cut this down. No. No. Because it's a lengthy ass rambling of a doozy. I love those.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I will say, I have told this story before on some platforms and details are different than before. See, each time I tell it, I open up a bit more about it. The first few times was just, I saw a ghost girl, how spooky. I think this will be the first time I leave nothing out. I'm going all


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I hope you're happy. Alright, for some background, I was practically raised in the theater. Oh, hell yea. Growing up, my parents worked at the local community theater, and I got to work on a lot of shows in different areas. That's cool. I did have a lot of experiences while there, but I didn't realize a lot of it until I was older and understood that that stuff


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It wasn't normal. Unfortunately, or perhaps fortunately, my scariest experience wasn't there.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Those are tails for another day. Ooh, that day is today. Please send them.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Being the theater kid I was, I decided to get my degree in theater education and become a theater teacher. The theater.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Theater. During the years in college. Still more spooky things happen. But again, not the scariest. So another day on those. Another day. Another day.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Um, that just reminds me of the Madonna song when she's like, I think I'll die another day. Oh, there you go. Is that Madonna? Yeah. Yeah, it's like her and Justin Timberlake.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I was at a high school paired with a fantastic cooperating teacher. I'll call Belle, not her real name.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The band room was right next to our classroom and I remember struggling to focus during a planning period, so Belle told me I could go into the theater as it would be empty until our next class. I take my veritable mountain of paperwork and lug it into the theater and decided to sit on the pit shell.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] To pause the spookies for a moment, I need to try and lay out how particular this theater- how this- fuck. I need to try and lay out how this particular theater is, well, laid out, and what the heck I mean by pitch shell. Thank you for that, cause I was lost.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I have attached a janky drawing to try to help you visualize what I'm talking about.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So the theater stage is raised off the ground floor by about five feet. The pit, where the orchestra plays, is centered in front with two open doorways that are usually curtained off during the performances, with stairs leading about two to three feet from the ground floor.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The top of the pit is usually uncovered during musicals, but when there's not a musical, it is covered by wooden boards that we called the shell, hence pit shell. Pit shell. Pit shell.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Other theater folk might have different names for it, but that's what we called it at that particular theater. So that's her way of saying, don't at me, groey.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now, back to the spookies. I plop down my workload and start trying to get through it. Now, I was facing out to the theatre, so my back is to the back of the stage. I hear some heavy footsteps behind me. Now, thinking it was the man who helps us build the sets, I turn around to greet him, only to find no one there.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So I try to convince myself it was maybe the bass of the- from the band room, but also knowing that that noise was very much a work boot walking across the stage. I go back to work.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Not even five minutes later I hear the chains in the catwalk swinging. No one can get up there. It's locked.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But again, my brain is trying to say, it's just the HVAC turning on, no spookies here. Yeah! I go back to work and get through half a page of homework responses when the light in the pit turns on.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] This is a manual light. No motion sensor. No random switch backstage. The switch is in the pit. The switch is in the pit. I can see both entrances to the pit. No one went down there. But I can definitely see the light on down there through the cracks between the boards.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Feeling less sure it's nothing now. I hop off the stage to the ground floor level, and I walk around to the entrance. Light definitely on, and definitely no one down there. I think I said something to the effect of, haha, hazing the new teacher. Cute. Go on, get out of there, and go to class. I won't even write you up if you leave now. But no one came out.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I waited another maybe 30 seconds before turning the light off and hopping back onto the pitch shell and trying to get back to work.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now the next 10 minutes or so are filled with footsteps behind me, coming closer and closer, and chain swings more loudly in the catwalk.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] At this point, I'm both scared and pissed. Pissed because this could be some stupid teenage prank that I'm falling right into. Let's be honest, as much as I love working with teenagers, they can be vicious, vicious creatures. Yeah. And scared because it could be, uh, something completely different and that primal part of my brain was screaming, DANGER!


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I try to calm myself by organizing my mountain of work into manageable piles. Uh, it keeps me distracted for maybe three minutes, with the noises continuing to get louder and closer. Then...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Listen here you little shit. Listen here you little shit. Light goes on, and there is standing a girl in her teens.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Long auburn hair covering her face. Oh, I don't like that. No. Wearing what looked like a long white nightgown. Oh. You need to go back to class now. Wow. Was your response?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Again, no movement, no acknowledgement. I would be sharding. Even she's like, I'm dead.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now I'm freaked out but the anger is slowly killing the fear as I honestly believe this was just some kid from the school playing a prank.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I reached toward her and went to touch her shoulder, starting to say, listen here. When her hand snapped up and grabbed my wrist tight, then before I could say any more, her head snapped up and hoo boy, let me tell you, I wish, I wish I could forget her face. I'm so scared.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Stark white skin, it is Elena. Like a porcelain doll. Lips slightly more pink, but still pale as hell. Eyes so black. Not like all black like you can see in the movies, but just like all pupil, no color eyes.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] She opened her mouth and let out this scream like I've never heard before or since.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It's difficult to describe, but here's the best to describe, but here's the best I got. It was like every sound possible combined, so high it made my ears hurt, but yet so low I felt my chest rumble with it. Oh my god, I am so stressed out right now, my whole body is


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I grabbed all my piles from the shelf, thankfully within reach, and hustled on out of there back to the classroom. Belle gave me a funny look and asked if I was okay, and I think I tried to pass everything off as it was too quiet to work.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That's a quick way to get any potential credentials revoked. But she already knew.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Each of the following questions became more and more hesitant from her, like she knew what was coming, but she didn't want it to come. Did you see her? A nod from me. Did she touch you? A hesitant nod.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Did she scream? Not so much a nod, but like a singular body roll. Oh my. She then went on to explain a few things to me.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The footsteps were those of Don, a nice older man type ghost who usually just wanted, uh, who was usually just around to help.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now the monkey wasn't the adorable primate the name conjures, but rather a thing in the catwalks that would crawl and swing around and cause mischief at best or throw things and do its best to get people to go away at worst.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] She wasn't a bad omen per se, but it was just a rarity. Oh my god, but it was just such a rarity that it did make the teacher nervous. She asked if I was okay and I just shrugged and I said, I guess this is a real theater then. Holy shit!


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I was never alone in the theater again, always had a student or another teacher or adult with me. According to kids, oh my god, according to the kid thing, kids, things were a lot more active that semester. A lot more stories of sounds were more frequent. I tried not to acknowledge it with the students, but they knew I was hearing things too.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It's not that I mind talking about my experiences, I think people should be able


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, should be able to without any stigma, but during that time I felt like I couldn't talk about it. Like if I did, it would make things so much worse. Give it more power maybe. Woah.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Stay weird, but not so weird that a creepy ghost girl lures you into a pit and scream at you while a monkey swings in the raptors and an old man just walks around. From K.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Holy shit, Kay. Oh my god, that was one of the scariest ever. That is... wow. Especially cause like, what did she want? I'm... I am Shuka. What do you want from me?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Oh my god. Holy shit! Like that's the thing, why did- like why- there was no-


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Alright, I think we have time for one more listener till, and it's gonna be cold. Actually, you know what, let me see, which one do I wanna do?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Let me see- oh, I found it. It's called Listener Tale Smiley Face.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The house we purchased was in okay condition, definitely livable, but the house had previously been a rental property, and the last tenants before we purchased the house left a mess and some damage to the home.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The home was built in the early 80s, so every room had lovely popcorn ceilings. Before we moved in, we hired somebody to repaint every room and scrape those ceilings. This job was not quite finished before we moved in.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The master bedroom and the bathroom was the last two to be painted and scraped. So for the time being, our bed and most everything was in the living room for about two weeks until the contractor could finish the job.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So onto the good part. My stepdad was having a birthday party in town. Anyone who had a key to my house was at this party. This will be important later. I was pregnant.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Well one had blew through and all the many party guests were now stuck inside. We live in Texas for anyone who is curious and September is peak tornado season so severe storms are common.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] We leave and I pull into the garage and my husband, who has only had about three beers, was still for the most part sober. We walk through the kitchen when I observe that there is blood splattered on the kitchen tile. Oh. I think, okay, maybe Carl, our cat, hurt herself. Carl the cat. Carl the cat. I love it. And I love that Carl is a woman. Yeah, she's a woman. She's a woman.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So I, as quickly as my pregnant body would allow, waddled into the living room to find more blood. There was blood spattered on the bed, a blood trail across the living room, until it finally created a small pool by the front entrance. What? When I looked up, I saw in disbelief that the front door was wide open.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] This was weird, as the doorknob was still locked. Whaaat? So the best theory that we had was that the storm blew the door open, maybe an animal walked in and Carl fought it.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Nothing had been moved in the house, no valuables taken, nothing out of place. There were several electronic items in plain sight that could have easily been stolen.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] They ask us some questions, most of which we have no answers for as we have no idea where this blood came from. Our cat's not injured nor do we have any injuries. They collect a blood sample and run a field test.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It is human blood. What? They swab several locations and take the bloodstained sheet from our bed and tell us to call if anything happens. What? A few days later, I get a call from a detective telling me that she's just trying to close her case. The blood was ran through whatever system they had and there was no matches. Uhm.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I'd be like, I don't live here anymore. I'd be like, that's not the end of this, my friend. It's not. Fast forward maybe a month. My husband and I were painting our office. We step out of the house to go have lunch and there's a small blood splatter on the freshly painted wall that was definitely not there before.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Currently we find random blood every so often, in random spots, always small, nothing like the first time, and we clean it and ignore it. What? There have been times in this house that I have felt like I was being watched or just got the shivers because I was feeling creeped out. Things have gone missing to return in a not so obvious place days to a week later.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Other than the creepy feelings I have, I have not had any feelings of malice.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Go ahead and send it on in to morbidpodcast.gmail.com and please put Listener Tale somewhere in the subject line. Do it. We hope you keep listening. And we hope you keep it weird. And keep it so weird that you name your female cat Carl. Thank you. Bye. Yes, do that.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Bonkers.com. I know it feels like a hundred years and two minutes. All at the same time. All at the same time. Yea, like it feels like this has always been like our shtick, our thing that we do together. Like I don't remember life before and I also feel like it just started.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, it's a weird-ass feeling. It is. It's been very weird, but very awesome. Very great. Very great. And you know what?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, speaking of very great things, uh, you guys have really liked the Butcher in the Run playlist that I made. If you didn't like it, I would question your sanity, to be honest, because we listen to that playlist in the car a lot and it's...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And I literally can't wait until September 13th for you to read this book because I just can't wait!


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Finally finish it cause I've read the first like few ch- I've basically read the whole book cause I got to read it while you were writing it and I've read the first few chapters but then I've-


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Really? Yea, I already, I'm already writing something else.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Holy eyebags, Batman. And what we're wearing right now is really very much who we are as people.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It's like them and like the overalls, like the farmer picture. Yea, like that farmer picture and it just has the simple life and Tinkerbell's on it too and that makes me happy.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, my grandma doesn't know what Stranger Things is, so I was like, she's wearing this shirt where a girl is levitating over her friends who are sitting in a circle in a graveyard, uhm, they're a little concerned about her, but don't worry, cause Max's favorite song, Running Up That Hill, is playing. By Kate Bush. It's a great sweatshirt, I'll post a photo of it.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Are like me and you're obsessed with stranger things and I know that this is something that a lot of you will like so I'll post it so you guys can scoop one because I don't know what it is about white, uh, sweatshirts.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Which is the search for the missing person that we're talking about. Okay, Heidi Allen.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So Richard Thibodeau had become involved in the search for Heidi Allen because he was one of the last people to see her alive. Heidi vanished from the DNW convenience store and gas station on Easter morning in 1994, and Richard had come in that morning to grab a couple packs of cigarettes before he and his family, you know,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] When about their day to celebrate Easter? So, Heidi rang up this transaction. This would be the last transaction of the day at 7.42am.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And according to Richard, you know, the two of them wished each other a good day, maybe said happy Easter and he headed back out to his van and headed home.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now later that day, he realized Heidi had gone missing, so he called into the police to let them know he had been at the DNW that morning.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So the police come out to his girlfriend's family's house to take his statement. All very routine. His statement was pretty normal. He said after he bought his cigarettes, they went home, then he got ready with his family, his girlfriend, and she had two kids and they were like super close, like it was a super close family unit.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] They get ready, they go to her family's house, and as they drive by the DNW they see that there is some police presence, and they're like, oh.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Just like kind of in passing comment to each other, I wonder what's going on there, but don't think too much of it. Yeah. Until they see the news segment. Oof.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So his girlfriend Teresa and her family, they were like, Richard, you gotta call the police, you know, maybe you saw something that you don't think is helpful, but will become helpful to the investigation. And so the police are trying to talk to everybody who was there that day, rule them out as suspects.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now Chris said he remembered driving by the DNW store that Easter morning. He said it was sometime after 8am. And he said as he was driving by, he saw two men arguing with a girl out front.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You know, the investigation, what you think happened, what you would do. And you know, it's really just to rule you out as a suspect. So just go ahead, fill this out, let us know when you're done. So he was like, okay, I'm going to fill it out the best I can. Finishes up, hands it over.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And the investigators are like, okay, cool, thanks. Would you and Teresa, your girlfriend, mind coming down to the station and answering some more questions? So they're like, sure. Definitely hairs are starting to rise on the back of the neck, getting a little nervous, but they agree.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] They would be at the station much longer than they anticipated that night.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And she calls it the banana splits. Stop it. And it's just...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So that they can all have a place where they can go and talk about how they're feeling and just know that there were other kids in their situation that they could relate to. That's so emotionally mature. And mind you, she was 18 at the time she disappeared, so she was probably like 17 or 18 when she did this. That's really emotionally mature. Yeah.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And the banana splits. So cute. Oh my god. Right? Adorable. And she was also known as a bit of a tomboy. That's exactly how she described herself. And her sport of choice was volleyball. She actually played on her high school team.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Piercing blue eyes, but the older, like when she was a baby, but the older she got, they turned hazel. Oh, I love that. Which reminded me of one of your littles. Yeah, one of my babes is doing that right now. And I read this and I was like, oh, like it just like hit home for a second.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now she had like this sandy brown hair, it was like kind of blonde, it was like blonde, blonde and brown. And she wore it super curly, I'm pretty sure she got perms that like, and she saved up the money and paid for her perms herself. Of course, that was the li-


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And it's just true regarding everyone we say it about. She just seems like somebody that you would want to be friends with. Yeaah. Like she had these kind eyes, she had a super sweet smile, she had dimples, like yeaah. I just want to be her friend. And she just seemed genuinely sweet.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And on top of that, like I was just saying, she was super smart and she was determined to set goals and follow through on them.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] In a tiny apartment in Southern California, two college dropouts teamed up to create a watch company that broke all of the rules.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It's got fair prices, unexpected colors and clean original designs. Movement grew into one of the fastest growing watch brands shipping to over 160 countries across the globe. And I can see why, because these watches are sexy.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now, movement has expanded into blue light glasses that protect your eyes from screens, which like we all could use, minimalist jewelry, my favorite kind, and more style essentials that won't break the bank, and they're all designed out of their California headquarters.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Okay, I just got a new watch from movement. Actually, last time I got Drew a watch because I'm just such a nice fiance, but this time I said it's about me and I got the signature square movement woman's watch in gold. I feel like an elegant woman wearing this and I always know what time it is. No, I just love it. It's really cute. It's just like sleek.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Movement watches have the look and quality of a $400 to $500 watch.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I gotta spend all day in front of my computer, by the way, and the Everscroll blue light filter and glasses are an absolute game changer. I used to get a ton of headaches, but I'm not getting them as often anymore. It really helps with eye strain and poor sleeping patterns. And I really just like the modern style that they have of the frames. They're super cute.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] If you want to elevate your look with style that doesn't break the bank, then join the movement and get 15% off today with free shipping and free returns by going to mvmt.com slash morbid. Again, that's mvmt.com slash morbid.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So her senior year she was actually taking extra classes at the local community college so that she could graduate not only with her diploma but also her associates so that she could get a head start on the degree that she wanted to earn which was in human services. That's amazing.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] This girl is just like truly doing it all. Yeah. Now by the time she was getting close to graduating high school and basically almost finishing her associates, she had filled out more than 150 applications for jobs in her field. Wow. And she would share that she was willing to do whatever it took to get the job.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] They actually found one of the applications that she had, uhm, filed and on it, it said, I'm willing to work from the bottom to do anything. I love this field and I'll start anywhere. That's amazing. That's somebody who's like,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That nine times out of ten, you got to start on the bottom rung of the ladder to get where you want and they're willing to hustle that way. They're the ones that are going to work to get there. Totally. Yeah. And she was, she was like putting in work every single place she went it seemed. She'd been working at the DNW since she was 16 years old.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Which was a Maroon Pontiac Sunbird station wagon. Yes. Yes, like very of the time. Amazing. But it was unfortunately still parked in the parking lot of the DNW when the police arrived after hearing that Heidi had gone missing. You always forget, like you were just telling me how awesome she was and I'm like, man, she just sounds great. And then I completely forgot that this is why we're here. Right.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And all their goals and dreams that they set for themselves were taken away by somebody else. By some idiot.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Heidi actually wasn't even supposed to be working that morning, which speaks to her character even more. She had switched shifts with a co-worker so that that co-worker could spend time with her family that Easter morning. Wow, okay.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So Heidi's just a wonderful, wonderful human. She is. She celebrated Easter with her family the day before and she handed out presents to all her family members while she sang like songs from Peter Cottontail. Stop it. It's so pure. You're breaking my heart here. I know. It's, I was reading and I was just like, oh my God, it just got heavier and heavier. Now,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So that would obviously be the last Easter that Heidi got to spend with her family. And for the next 28 years, the town of New Haven would question what really happened that Easter morning. But before we get into everything else, I do just want to share a quote from Heidi's sister Lisa that just describes Heidi to a T.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And doesn't Lisa have a podcast? Lisa does have a podcast, and it's called One Sister's Journey dot dot dot keeping it real. Oh nice, I love it. Yeah.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So go check that out. Yes, definitely go check that out. And she said of her sister, I want people to know that she was a good kid. She was one of the most joyful and selfless people, and I can only imagine she would have been an even more beautiful adult. She just wasn't given that opportunity. That's horrific. It is. And like I think of you when I read that. Yeah.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] A fun thing to watch them become the person they're going to become. And it's like, her sister was like, oh, you know, like it's going to be really interesting to see what kind of adult she is. And when that gets just like taken away and you're like, I never get to see that. And I knew how great you were going to be.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So that morning in 1994, honestly it started off pretty normal. It was rainy and the roads weren't in a great condition to drive on, so Heidi's boyfriend Brett actually followed behind her as she opened up the store that morning. That's sweet. They had been dating for years at this point.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But I think, like people were trying to say it seemed controlling, but I think he was doing it in a sweet gesture kind of way of


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Oh my god. And she would help him iron his clothes. Adorable. Like, and they planned to start having kids together once they were in their 30s.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So they made their way inside the store. They opened up right around 5.45am. Brett stuck around, I think, for about an hour, it seems, as Heidi got everything set up. And once people kind of started rolling in, getting coffees and scratch tickets and ciggies, all that.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Heidi seemed like she was good to go, so Brett gave her a kiss, and he said, I'll see you in the afternoon. Because they had plans to celebrate Easter with his family that afternoon.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now after that last transaction at 7.42am, a few more people actually came in and out of the store. And the police knew this because some customers had left money on the counter in good faith for whatever they purchased. But finally though, somebody realized that the clerk hadn't stepped outside for just a second. She was gone. She was nowhere to be found.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now as this person is realizing this, just by happenstance, a sheriff's patrol car was passing by, it was right around 8.15am, and somebody at the store kinda motioned him to come into the parking lot.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now this person told the cop that the DNW seemed open, but there was nobody around and the situation just seemed off.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So the cop steps inside and he notes that there's cash on the counter, there's cash in the register, the register's still there.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] There were signs that somebody had been working that morning, because behind the counter sat Heidi's jacket, her purse, and her keys, and like I said, her car was parked right out front.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now her family was called straight away, and when her cousin Melissa, who everybody called Missy, found out that Heidi was missing, she ran home right away and she started posting her photo all over missing, uh, posters.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now the poster had a photo of Heidi from her sister Lisa's wedding and her description. A white female, 5'11", about 145 pounds, light brown blonde hair that she wore very long and curly and blue hazel eyes.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The day that she was missing, she was wearing jeans with a gray sweatshirt that had a plaid logo across the front of it and white sneakers.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] They also said that she would either be wearing glasses or contact lenses and she had pierced ears. And when we share a photo of her on Instagram and socials, I will also share the progress photos that have been done over the years.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It was clear though to the police that Heidi was not a runaway. Like this whole situation, it could, like all of her stuff was still at the, you know, she has her own car and it's still here and it doesn't add up. She could just leave in that car. And she would've had, like if she was gonna run away.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But they were like, no, she was taken from the store against her will, it's clear as day. It's just a matter of figuring out who would have wanted to hurt her or abduct her and why.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now, the county where she lived was one of those places where everybody knew everybody and every last detail of each other, but there were some, some things among the community, excuse me, that just remained unspoken. It gave off the vibe where like people would leave their doors open because nothing bad happened there.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Unless you are part of the drug scene. Oh, the drug scene in this area was not something that you wanted to become involved with because there were plenty of people using and selling drugs. Specifically in this area it was marijuana and cocaine at the time.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But that specific community obviously wanted people to keep their noses out of it all. And if they weren't going to, then things could get violent very quickly. That's really scary. And shortly before Heidi's disappearance, she had told her boyfriend that there was a man who appeared to be on coke.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So first things first. Roadblocks were not put up until the day after Heidi went missing.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Good, that's like, that's really helpful. That's like, using an umbrella the day after it rains. Yes, that's literally what that is. They've had an entire day to leave. Exactly.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] She went missing in the morning. Yeah, throw him up.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That's the thing, the police had started working on this search like an hour and a half after the last purchase had been made that morning, but for some reason didn't think to put roadblocks up until one full day later.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That's a good idea. You know what would have helped yesterday? Throwing up roadblocks. Let's try it today. Well, and the thing that sucks in, I hate to say this, but if roadblocks had been put up on day one, I wholeheartedly think she could have been found. That's infuriating. Cause she, whoever took her obviously put her in a car and drove her somewhere.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Why would you not put them up? Like what? That's infuriating. And at that point, it's even more infuriating that amber alerts weren't even a thing yet. Oh yeaah.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Like we were just saying, you just feel like it's always been around. Exactly. So yeah, roadblocks have been around for a while and the knowledge of putting them up is pretty useful, but there's that.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now, in addition to that bullshit, I read this book called Scrapped about the disappearance and the investigation.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And the authors Lisa Peebles and John O'Brien noted that usually in the state of New York, if there's a big case like this, the state police would take over the investigation because the local police, especially in this community, they didn't have a ton of experience with cases like this. People just didn't go missing in this town, like people were not murdered that often in this town.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The New York State Police were called off early in Heidi's investigation because of two cops that had beef with one another. Oh my god. The local sheriff, Charles Nellis I believe is how you say it, refused to let Jack Doyle, who was the head of the state police,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now Mario Cuomo, who was actually governor of New York at the time, called in the National Guard himself to see if they could locate Heidi, cause he was like, what the fuck are you guys doing over there? Somebody should do something. But try as they might, they just kept coming up with dead ends.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] They were searching all over the place and of course in spots that the average person wouldn't be able to handle. They would pick up like anything they found, any article of clothing, soda cans, anything hoping to get DNA. They filled up more than 12 bags by the time the search was called off.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And not a single item in any bag could be traced back to Heidi. Geez.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] What happened? So Heidi's family was not pleased to say the least in the beginning of this and they actually ended up coming up with their own reward in the hopes that the $20,000 might motivate somebody to come forward.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] They also featured Heidi's case on America's Most Wanted, and they were still coming up with nothing.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So there was a man called Clint Van Zandt who actually worked at Quantico. Oh wow. And he was specially trained in analyzing serial killers and sexual predators.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, he actually was involved in two pretty high profile cases, Ted Kaczynski, the Unabomber, and Timothy McVeigh. Woah. He predicted their characteristics pretty much down to a T. Jeez. So in his professional opinion, whoever had kidnapped Heidi would most likely try to insert themselves into the investigation somehow. Okay.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Whether that would be a tip or calling back over and over again to follow up on that tip.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Maybe join a search party. They would just wanna feel a sense of closeness to the aftermath of what they'd caused. Which, how fucked up is that?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] How fucked up is that? And I feel like that happens a lot. Yeaah. Cause we've covered like a bunch of cases I feel like where the person responsible was in the search party. Yeaah, because if you think about it, like shitty people, all they want is attention. Yeaah.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That's all they want. Like they want attention. They want to feel powerful, usually because they don't have any power in their own lives. So they try to create it outside by like,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And then they insert themselves into the investigation so that they can hear one, a thank you for a tip.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Or like, and just sit there and be like, I caused this. Yup. And now I get to be a part of it. It's so fucked up. It is. And like, especially if they're involved in the search, it's like, you're looking at these desperate family members and for them, they're getting off on that. Yeah, cause they know.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The little things. Oh yes. And that happens there. There you go. Now if they had a connection to the victim that came up in the investigation, that they would likely be closely following, they would try to explain it away in the most logical way they could. Yea, that makes sense.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] When you run a business, time seems way more precious. Every misplaced moment feels like a missed opportunity, a lost chance to make your business better, or honestly, even just to step away and recharge your battery a little bit.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] ShipStation gives ecommerce sellers like you more time to do what they really love to do. Unless what you really love is managing every single little detail of an order fulfillment, but I don't really see that being the case.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] ShipStation automates time-intensive shipping processes so that you can get back to focusing on bigger things like developing new products.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Owning your marketing strategy or even just like interacting with your customers or whoever buys your product. It's a customer. No wonder ShipStation is already trusted by over 100,000 sellers.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Here's the thing, guys. All those manual shipping tasks, they eat up your time. But here's the thing.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] ShipStation is really good at those, so let ShipStation handle all your shipping and handling, and get back to what you're good at, growing your business. The thing is, there's another thing. It works with all your storefronts, Amazon, eBay, Etsy, and more, and it lets you automate all the manual work that goes into shipping.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You also get deeply discounted shipping rates, which everybody loves, and those are normally reserved for Fortune 500 companies. You can easily compare carriers, rates, and delivery times so that it's easy to choose the best option every single shipping scenario. In fact, 98% of companies that use ShipStation for a year keep using it as long as they're in business.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It is time to let go of all of those shipping tasks. ShipStation can do it better and faster.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Sign up using promo code morbid for a free 60 day trial at shipstation.com and start saving time with every shipment. That is two whole months of shipping made quick and painless and it is free to try. Just go to shipstation.com, click on the microphone at the top of the page and type in morbid. Shipstation. Make ship happen.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So the police did not have much to go on at all in this investigation. There's literally no DNA evidence, there's no fingerprints, it's, there's nothing.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So that was until they got a call from that Chris Bevans about the two men arguing with the young woman in front of the store, near the two-toned white van.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now Chris's girlfriend, who again was related to Rich Thibodeau, she said that Chris really just liked to be in the limelight and really loved the attention that he was getting.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Okay. And then she followed it up with letting them just know that he was not too intelligent. Okay. So I think she was just trying to say, take what he says with a grain of salt because I'm not so sure about it. She was saying it lightly. Exactly. She was like, you know, I'm not, I'm not going to call him anything. I'm not going to say it.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But the thing was the police are fucking desperate for any information on this case and they want to know more. So they're like, all right, we're going to take what he says with a grain of salt. But like we might be calling him back. Yeah.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But then another call came in and also noted something about a two-toned white, uh, van that was quote-unquote driving erratically later in the day that Easter Sunday.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And then, a man who had been inside the DNW at the same time Richard was, called in a tip of his own.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And perhaps the other man was somebody he knew and someone who joined in on an argument that he was having with Heidi for one reason or another.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So to be sure, the police are going to have to call Chris Bivens once again.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now, they call him again, it's about 10 days after his original tip. And they decide to call him up and have him come down to the station to chat.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now in the days leading up to that, the police were asking around town specifically now about Richard Thibodeau. He's become a suspect. And any other men that he might be connected to.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And you feel, like I'm sure Heidi just felt icky. Yeah.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I mean, and then I can, I guess I can devil's advocate this a little bit because the more I thought about it, I'm like, well, you know, if I meet my friend's new significant other, husband, boyfriend, girlfriend, wife, like whatever. Sure.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It all comes down to what Gary actually said in his tone when he said it and unfortunately


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So, they, they find this information out and they're like, okay, so maybe it was Gary that was with Rich and maybe those were the two men who were arguing with the girl that Chris saw, Heidi, Rich, Gary. Is that the scenario?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So they were like, let's call Chris and see if he remembers anything about the men that fit Gary or Richard. And this is the part in the investigation where you're going to want to punch things. Cool. I love when that happens. Yeah. Because for the, for some reason, the first part of their interview with Chris was not recorded.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] We know why, but it's like, you're gonna get caught. It's the same thing. We reference the West Memphis 3 case all the time, but it has so many little pieces that fit into other cases so well, that like Jesse Maskely, like they didn't start recording his until they made sure that they got him to.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, so first hour not recorded. Once they were done there, they first had him at the Central Square PD. Once they were done with him there, they went to the new sheriff's headquarters.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He's gathering all of the following information as he's driving by. Okay. That's all I'm gonna say.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So he said that he saw one guy and as they were arguing he said one of the guys held the girl behind in a bear hug. That's how he described it. He had her in a bear hug from behind. And he said she seemed to be hysterical and struggling.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Don't assume it just makes an ass out of you and you. Yeaah. Not me. It's true. It's stupid. So he said there were other cars at the pumps, but he couldn't describe any of them other than the van that he thought belonged to these two men, which was also at the pumps.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And at this point in the story, he said that the three people were now walking toward it.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So when asked to describe the van, he said that it was either a Dodge or a Chevy.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And he said there was a stripe going down the middle that was dark blue. Okay. Now Richard did have a van that was two toned with a stripe down the middle, but it was a black stripe.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So, so pretty good on the car, pretty good description. Yea, cause that black and blue thing I think you could easily. Totally. I, I knew you would play devil's advocate there and I knew I wouldn't be able to argue with you. Yea.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now he then went on to describe the men that the girl was with. So one man was described as being about 10 feet away from the other man who was following behind holding the woman. So we have one guy ahead, about 10 feet, and then these two people, guy and a girl.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Guys holding on to girl following behind. Totally normal. Yeaah, totally normal. Yeaah, definitely. So the man in the front ahead of everybody else, Chris said he's probably about 5'11".


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The other guy, he said probably around 6'2", because he's taller than the girl who was probably about 5'11".


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now, one of these statements that he made was handwritten and the other one was typed. But interestingly enough, the handwritten version has a lot of contradictions when compared to the typed version and even with the spoken version.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now some people wonder if that's, that guy has a different description because the deputies maybe coerced Chris into making the guy in the front description match Richard Thibodeau.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Because Richard Thibodeau was right around 5'5". Ooh, okay. So they're like, oh, let's call it 5'6", because, you know, like, how would he get it, like, on the nose? But 5'5", that works. Ooh.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now remember, Chris had originally said this man was probably around 6'2", because he was taller than the girl who was quite tall herself, 5'11". The officer did write down that the girl was 5'11", but nothing about the man's height who was holding her.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So, with all the height stuff out of the way, the officer decided to take one more liberty. To say that the van was parked near the pumps, rather than at the pumps like Chris had said it was. Later on down the road, there were also posters with Heidi's information on them.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] This is shady. Now back to where we started this because it's gonna get a whole lot shadier down at the station, baby, with Richard Thibodeau and his girlfriend Teresa being brought in for questioning. That's where we started.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So once the couple arrives at the station, they are immediately separated, and the cops who are talking to Richard want to go over his story with them one more time. He went through the whole entire thing again, woke up Easter morning, I smoked Teresa's last cigarette, she would've been pissed, hopped in my van, parked along the front of the DNW.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Wonder why they changed that it was at the, at the pumps. Ah, look at that. He parked in the front of the DNW. Oh yeaah. Grabbed his Siggy's, wished Heidi a good one.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now then he made his way back home, went about Easter with his family. But then he called that tip in.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And I think the cops were very stuck on the profile that Van Zant had come up with saying whoever was responsible would likely insert themselves into the investigation. And I think they were trying to apply that to Richard Thibodeau because he called later that Easter to let them know that he had been one of the last people at the DNW that morning.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I could totally see that. I will hand that right over. 100%. But then if you look at it from the other side of things, and he hadn't called in to tell them he was there that morning, and then they found out that he was the person who made the last transaction, that would also look very shady. Yea, there's no winning there. You're damned if you do, you're damned if you don't.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But on the same token it's like, but we also want people to come forward and say tips when they have them. Right. And not feel like they can't because they're going to be looked at.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Like they're just trying to insert themselves in so it's like that's a slippery slope.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It's not awesome to think those things. Same here, same here. And I will say too, this like going to play devil's advocate again, like I see why they're, why they're thinking that he's inserting himself and all that and like the sign is weird.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But at the same time, this is a super small community and an 18 year old girl just went missing. Tons of people are putting up signs for this girl and leaving signs in the back of their car with her information. So yeah, it seems like it's like kind of a tight knit community. It is. Yeah. So I don't know.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Maybe it was the small town guy in him, but as far as the police were concerned, and now given Biven's array of statements,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Like to be proven wrong. Like nobody's gonna get mad at you for going above and beyond. Absolutely, because that's the thing. You have your suspects, your whole job is to rule them out until you have the primo suspect. Exactly.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So they, they want to see if there's any kind of DNA in that van that could place Heidi there, hoping that it's going to be an open and shut case. Yeah. But first they had a couple more mind games that they wanted to play.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So in the room with Richard, they said, guess what? Teresa's in the other room singing like a canary. She's telling us everything. We know all about that morning, Richard.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And Richard's sitting there like, I don't know what the fuck she's telling you cause what I've told you is the truth. You're panicking. I'm not involved.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] In the next room, Theresa was actually not saying anything about Richard at all. In fact, the officers in that room were trying to break her down so that she would, but she just wasn't budging. And things finally got to the point where they threatened to take her children away if she didn't tell them the truth.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] None of the hair samples, fingerprint samples, or any sample taken from the van matched anything that belonged to Heidi.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And like nothing proved that she was in that van. They had her fingerprints in the system already, which is something we're gonna get into.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Probably in part two. And they went through some of her belongings so that they could use different things to compare to the samples. Nothing matched. There was zero indication she'd ever been there.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But it was a small town and people were starting to catch on to what was going on and people were starting to talk.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now people who had already told the police, like, no I don't know anything, were coming forward with information now.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] They said they either recently remembered or were too nervous to say before. Which does happen. Yea, of course. It does happen.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Many of those people though had, that had been spoken to in the past, were specifically asked if they had seen Richard's van parked in front of his brother Gary's house the day that Heidi went missing, and all of them said they had not. No. It's like if you, if you have, if you have, if you haven't, you haven't. It's that simple. The end. But now people were


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Totally changing their stories. Some were saying the van was parked there all night. Others were saying that it was parked late into the night on Easter and people had other really crazy stories regarding the Thibodeaux brothers. One witness called in a tip saying to the police that he saw Gary and Richard carrying an eight to 10 foot long object in the woods.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He said whatever it was was wrapped in clear plastic and it had the ends tied off with rope.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But they still, the police, the investigators, they have a very strong feeling about Richard and Gary.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So they call Chris back in town, in one time again, oh my god, sorry. They call Chris back into the station one last time. And by this point, Chris has seen this van three different times and said, yup, it's the right style of van, but it's not the same color as the one I saw that morning. Okay. He has seen, he has said this multiple times.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But this third time seeing it, he changed his mind and said,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Maybe I am wrong, maybe that isn't the van, like, I imagine that would happen. Of course. And then after a little bit of coaching, which you can read this full transcript in that book Scrapped, I definitely think you guys should go read it and we'll link it in the show notes.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You read this, this coaching that goes on, and then at the end of it, Chris says, that's the van. Oof. Yeah.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Okay. Now at this time, there were four other suspects in this case.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But Chris Biven's story alongside the sudden influx of tips putting Gary and his brother Richard at the scene.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I wasn't there, like me, and he said him and his girlfriend were sleeping that Easter morning, and they woke up when Richard called them and said, like, did you see the news about the DNW?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Oh. But it was just the two of them in the house, so they didn't have anybody to set up that out by.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But they were arresting Gary on kidnapping charges. Richard was arrested on kidnapping charges, but Gary was arrested because he and his girlfriend Sharon had failed to show up in court in Massachusetts on an unrelated drug charge. Oh.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The investigators wanted him behind bars while they made their case against him. Yea, of course. That's all it is. Yea, that's an easy thing to do.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So neither brother knew that the other had been arrested until days later and they see each other in the rec yard.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And Richard is like, I know exactly what they're trying to do. They're trying to pin this on me. And now they have you as an accomplice. Wow. But as they're standing there chatting with each other, guards come over and separate them. They get separated.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Oh shit. And then Gary and Sharon get extradited back to Massachusetts.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And also it's like, do you think these two guys are sophisticated enough that there would be not a trace in that van? Nothing, nothing. Like not a trace? Right. Come on. Exactly. Like a fingerprint, a hair, something. And they tried to say like, well they cleaned it out, if you look.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And the thing that sucks is, and if you read the book you'll find out, Richard did take his car to a car wash the next day, but because when they search your shit, they don't put it back nicely. No. And they leave like the fingerprint dust and everything all over the place.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You could devils advocate the shit out of this entire race. You really could, you get both ways. It's crazy. So Gary and Sharon get extradited back to Massachusetts. Richard is able to make it out on bail because he actually did, I think he did landscaping work for this woman, like he had worked for her before. And she was like, there's no way he's involved in this. And she posted his $15,000 bail. Holy shit. I don't know who I love enough to do that.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now, and but, and again, there are people in this town that absolutely believe that these two are the ones responsible, and I'm not saying either way, I haven't made up my mind. Oh, okay.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So Gary on the other hand, he couldn't post bail, and as soon as he and Sharon were taken into custody, they separated them, obviously, and tried to do the same thing to Sharon that they'd previously done to Richard's girlfriend, Teresa.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] They said, we know Gary's involved, you tell us everything, we know he kidnapped Heidi, and if you tell us everything, they said we will move you anywhere in the United States that you want to go and you will be placed in the witness protection program.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Holy shit. And she said, that's great, I have nothing to tell you. Wow. She said we were home sleeping that day.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] We woke up when Richard called to tell us that like something was going down at the DNW. That's that. Yeah. And they kept pushing. They were like, listen, like anywhere you want to go Sharon, anywhere you want to go. She's like, I don't want to go anywhere. She doesn't want to go anywhere. Nothing's happened. She refused. She said Gary had no involvement and she and Gary both maintained their alibi forever. They never broke on that story. Never. Wow.