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[Assistant] So the prosecutor made the decision to take the case to the grand jury.


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[Assistant] And Clarence admitted to his role in helping facilitate the infidelity.


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[Assistant] But once again, they both denied any involvement with this murder as they were headed to trial.


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[Assistant] And after two months of heavy press coverage and rumors, almost everyone in the county.


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[Assistant] While others, some other people found it hard to believe that somebody as smart as Harry would quote,


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[Assistant] Leave such an obvious trail of blood from his basement to his sedan, from the house to the mountainside.


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[Assistant] Anger distracts. Yea, exactly. Makes them do stupid things. Mhm. And now others thought the whole case seemed suspicious from the start of everything and the evidence was too convenient. Almost like somebody was trying to frame Harry for the murder.


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[Assistant] We're really speculating here. Oh, and we continue to. Wildly.


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[Assistant] A majority of people felt that Harry was somehow involved.


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[Assistant] And they figured that Clarence Stevenson's participation


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[Assistant] Was in disposing of the body after it had, after the murder had been committed. Oh, okay. And that's how he got blood on his clothes. That's what people were speculating and assuming. And I kind of am of that mindset.


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[Assistant] Well that, that's where my problem lies, it's like, do I think he didn't have, that he was like totally removed from it? No. No, I really don't. I don't either. Like it seems like he's involved in some way, shape or form, but that could be totally on the fringe of it, like, like you said.


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[Assistant] And I don't, I just don't see it yet. Cause like you said, I don't know what the motivation is. Exactly. To do the actual deed. Right.


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[Assistant] To help afterwards, I get it. I get what his motivation would have been, but I can't connect it with the other part. Yeah, I think you and I are on the same page here.


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[Assistant] So yea, faced, he had faced 58 felony charges and was not going to be indicted on any of them. Wow.


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[Assistant] While Clarence Stevenson was indicted on several charges.


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[Assistant] So he was like, we're going to continue looking for anything that can connect him to this. Yeah, cause how are you just letting it go? Well, and it's like, there is no...


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[Assistant] Clarence involvement without Harry. I'm sorry, there's just not. No, that's how I feel. And it's like we're gonna indict one person?


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[Assistant] I feel like it's connected to this other person that doesn't make any sense. I feel like the real, like, the real big bad guy here is Harry. He seems like Harry. Me too. Me too. I mean there's blood in his car. I don't know. Someone down here.


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[Assistant] And I'm not excusing what Clarence did, if he is the one that, you know, disposed of her body and helped along with that. I'm not excusing that.


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[Assistant] Now, and the prosecutor felt the same as us, like I just said, he was like, we're not going to stop until we figure out something to pin him in this on him.


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[Assistant] But regardless of the prosecutor's beliefs, Harry Robertson was allowed to walk free. And Clarence Stevenson's trial was set for early October.


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[Assistant] Unbelievable. Wow. So Clarence Stevenson's trial began in Logan County Circuit Court on October 10, 1932 before Judge Naaman Jackson.


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[Assistant] While Stevenson was represented by C.L. Estep and Chester Chambers.


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[Assistant] The defense attorneys who had also represented him during the arraignment and the indictment.


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[Assistant] The opening day of the trial attracted more than a thousand people to the court. Damn. Most of those people packed themselves into the courtroom to witness what was at the time the biggest case in Logan County history.


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[Assistant] Wow. And outside, additional people waited to get in, while street vendors sold water, fruits, snacks, this, that, and the other thing. Wow. That's like a circus. It's like y'all...


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[Assistant] Now the prosecutor's original theory had been that Harry Robertson murdered Mamie.


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[Assistant] In order to cover up their affair and her affairs with other local prominent men.


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[Assistant] And he had enlisted the help of Clarence Stevenson to dispose of the body on Trace Mountain. Yeah.


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[Assistant] But when the grand jury failed to indict Robertson, they were left with only one suspect and forced to prosecute what was


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[Assistant] Like we were just saying, seemingly a motiveless crime. That's the thing, I gotta know what the hell is going on here. So instead of offering a motive, the prosecutors just stuck to the evidence, occasionally implying that Clarence Stevenson may have acted in a misguided attempt to protect his boss, Harry. Okay.


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[Assistant] I don't see it. I mean, but they were grasping at straws here. I was just going to say, I guess in terms of grasping at straws, that's a decent attempt. Yeah. Because you're going to convince people, some people of that. I think that's the only thing they could have done. I think that's like one of those things that I could see people believing that partially.


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[Assistant] Now on the first day of witness testimony, the undertaker R.B. Harris and Dr. W.S. Rowan


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[Assistant] And transported back to the undertaker's office, as well as describing the extent of Mamie's injuries.


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[Assistant] Her husband Jack was also called that day to testify. And he was to tell the jury of his whereabouts at the time that Mamie had been killed. And he gave a detailed account of his life with Mamie.


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[Assistant] He told the jury we were, quote, we were always on good terms and almost never fought.


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[Assistant] And his demeanor on the stand was of that of a man who was genuinely grieving. The judge actually had to ask him to speak up multiple times.


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[Assistant] Because he tended to speak softly whenever he spoke of Mamie.


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[Assistant] Oh, that like, breaks my heart. He really did love her, it sounds like. And to have like, this is...


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[Assistant] So messy. Oh yea, and to have your private life. And to have the man she was having an affair with.


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[Assistant] Be all involved in this, and like, she was brutally murdered, and it could have been the guy who she was having an affair with, and it's like. And it could have been the guy she was having an affair with, trying to help out other men that she may have been having an affair with. Yeah, and it's like, and this poor guy's like, grieving.


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[Assistant] Horrific. Yeah. I can't imagine. I was just gonna say. And I just, the fact that the judge had to be like, sorry, can you speak up? Cause he just like always spoke softly when he talked about her.


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[Assistant] And the prosecutor suggested that it was Fanny who had provided a private room to Mamie.


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[Assistant] Other witnesses called to testify included state troopers and investigators.


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[Assistant] And a number of local citizens who claimed that they had seen Clarence Stevenson in Mamie's company days before the murder.


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[Assistant] In a moment that everybody seemed to be waiting for, Harry provided all the lurid details of his relationship with Mamie.


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[Assistant] In his home around 8pm on the evening she was killed. So he lied to them originally.


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[Assistant] Oh, that's fine. He said he hadn't seen her for I believe two days, but now he's saying he saw her the very night she was killed in his home.


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[Assistant] He said after he saw her around 8pm that night, he left the house to take his children to the swimming pool. What a doting father everybody. I was just gonna say doting family man. He said the last time I saw, that was the last time I saw her. Stevenson was in my house at the time.


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[Assistant] Now even Louise Robertson, his wife, was called to the stand and she told the jury that actually she and Mamie had been close friends until she, quote, had reason to believe she and my husband were intimate.


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[Assistant] Oh man, this is so messy. It is. She said that she didn't have any proof of their affair and nothing in particular had tipped her off. She said,


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[Assistant] It was just her women's intuition that led her to believe that they had been unfaithful. Usually right. Yup.


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[Assistant] Now even after all of that though, Louise stood by her husband. She confirmed his alibi of taking the kids swimming.


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[Assistant] And she said, yup, Clarence did go out immediately after my husband left the house.


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[Assistant] And upon cross-examination, Louise confirmed that her husband did own a gun, a .38 caliber revolver.


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[Assistant] Which is exactly the gun that Mamie had been shot with. But when she was asked to confirm that, she quickly added that when investigators searched the house, she overheard one of the officers say the pistol hadn't been fired.


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[Assistant] Now the only thing Louise failed to mention on the stand was the fact that she knew Mamie had been concocting a scheme to drive a wedge between her and her husband.


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[Assistant] According to Clarence, being stuck in the middle of their love triangle eventually became too much for him to bear, especially after Mamie confided in him that she intended to break up the Robertson's marriage.


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[Assistant] Just months before Meining was killed. Oh damn. Yeah.


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[Assistant] So he took the stand on October 14th and did his best to defend himself and explain the inconsistencies in his stories.


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[Assistant] So he's a black man in West Virginia who was accused of murdering a white woman. His defense was an uphill battle.


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[Assistant] He's meant to say the very least. The very least. There aren't even words, I don't think.


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[Assistant] First answering questions from his own attorney, excuse me, then followed by cross-examination from the prosecutor. And during this questions, uh, questioning,


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[Assistant] Clarence told the jury about various vague and anonymous threats that he'd gotten since being taken into custody.


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[Assistant] Including one incident that involved intimidation and police brutality. Can you believe it?


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[Assistant] This far back. Yeah, still. According to Clarence, he was in the back of a state trooper's car traveling up toward the top of Trace Mountain when they heard gunshots near the vehicle.


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[Assistant] And Clarence claimed the trooper turned to him and said the shots were from the mob that was waiting at the top of the mountain for him, unless he told them what he knew.


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[Assistant] He said the police officer would throw him out to the mob, who would almost certainly kill him.


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[Assistant] Now on October 14th, after closing arguments had been made, the jury retired to their chambers for deliberation.


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[Assistant] And after reviewing the evidence and testimony for less than an hour, they returned with a verdict of guilty, but, quote, recommended mercy.


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[Assistant] When we're not doing anything to the other man who is almost most certainly involved. Yeah, absolutely.


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[Assistant] Now, defense attorney Chester Chambers immediately moved that the verdict be set aside and the judge granted this motion.


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[Assistant] And that deferred Clarence Stevenson's sentence until arguments could be heard in the circuit court.


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[Assistant] Now the sentencing hearing began on October 21st, and during it several notes were found at the courthouse that appeared to be written by a concerned citizen. The writer claimed to have witnessed Mamie's murder,


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[Assistant] And indicated that Clarence Stevenson had nothing to do with the crime. But other than that, they didn't give much information.


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[Assistant] Now presented with the letters, both the prosecution and the defense actually agreed that they were probably fabricated.


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[Assistant] In order to divert attention from Clarence. Okay. So they didn't present them to the judge. Oh. I dunno about that.


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[Assistant] On October 25th, having no additional information, the judge, Naaman Jackson,


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[Assistant] Now, he and his lawyers appealed the conviction in November of 1933.


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[Assistant] Listened to both arguments and then rejected the plea and upheld the lower court's verdict.


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[Assistant] We would not be warranted in reversing the judgment for insufficiency of evidence under the circumstances presented by the proof so convincing of guilt.


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[Assistant] Like what convinced you of the guilt? I was going to say, can you, is the guilt in the room with us right now? Like what? Can you point to it?


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[Assistant] There's, it's what's convincing about anything that they said. Yeah, I don't know about this one. This one is, that's, that's a little shady. It's all shady. And we all know what it's rooted in. Cause like I said, can I see him being somebody who helped after the fact? Definitely.


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[Assistant] But I don't see the murder. I don't see the murder. I don't see it. At all. Or at least they haven't convinced me. No. That's for sure. No, definitely not me.


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[Assistant] But upon their ruling, Clarence was returned to West Virginia penitentiary, uh, penitentiary, excuse me, to continue serving his sentence.


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[Assistant] Uh, in 1939, he was transferred to Huttonsville Correctional Center due to overcrowding.


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[Assistant] And then in late 1941, after complaining of stomach pains for months and months and months, he was diagnosed with stomach cancer.


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[Assistant] Like we've been saying this entire time, there wasn't much evidence to say Clarence and Mamie even knew each other very well.


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[Assistant] And it's like, now we're supposed to believe that he just killed her. Out of nowhere. Like, out of literally nowhere. But, when it came to the real killer, there were several theories. And they have been talked about for hundreds and hundreds of years. Okay.


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[Assistant] The most obvious and popular of the theories was that Harry murdered Mamie after finding out


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[Assistant] That she kept a list of her illicit affairs with several prominent men


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[Assistant] He killed her to prevent her from exposing their infidelities and ruining their reputations.


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[Assistant] And similarly, some people actually believed that Harry's wife Louise had killed Mamie, either because she learned of Mamie's plan to break up the marriage, or because she simply wanted to end the affair. Yeah. I'm not sure about that. Yeah, that one, this one's hard. It's hard. I don't know about that though. Yeah, I'm not sure. To me,


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[Assistant] I really do think two people were here for this. I kinda think that too, but then I-


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[Assistant] But I don't know. I mean, it could have been one person. It absolutely, like, it's very much- My gut says two.


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[Assistant] Yeah, my initial thought was there was two people. Because the gunshots, the sliced throat. That's the thing, it feels really brute, which again, one person could absolutely do this. And we've seen it.


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[Assistant] Especially because it's like she was, they think she was shot first.


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[Assistant] And then the sliced throat and the broken neck was done afterwards, so it's like...


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[Assistant] Yeah, I guess one person could do that because all they would technically have to do to incapacitate her was shoot her. And then afterwards it's just do the stuff afterwards, but also it's like,


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[Assistant] That's his. That's like a personal thing it feels like. That's what I thought too. Just cause he had already killed her. So why do that? Besides to make it worse. And just because you're angry.


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[Assistant] No. No, that one doesn't check for me. But another popular theory was that Mamie had been killed by an organized crime group in order to prevent her from exposing their liquor operations in the area. Because remember, prohibition. Okay. And throughout the, I'm not saying I don't see this, I could, personally I think Harry had something to do with it though.


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[Assistant] Throughout the investigation and trial, it became clear that Mamie was a well-organized opportunistic woman.


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[Assistant] It was likely that she had been intimately familiar with men responsible for the illegal gambling, the prostitution, quote unquote.


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[Assistant] She would have been killed in order to prevent her from going to the police.


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[Assistant] This one makes the most sense to me. And as a support for this theory, some believers pointed to the execution style method of killing used in the murder. That's, that's what's striking to me is the, the methods used here feel strange to me.


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[Assistant] This makes the most sense. And you were saying, like, I think earlier you were saying with all the different motives, it seems like they were trying, er, all the different, uhm, methods, methods, excuse me, they were trying to confuse the police. Yeah, that seems like- That has organized crime written all over it. Yeah, it does. And maybe, I mean,


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[Assistant] Part of it. But I still think Harry has a piece in that puzzle. Because it's like the human blood.


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[Assistant] But there is human blood in his car, and there's human blood on Clarence's clothes. Do we know that it's Mamie's without any doubt? No. No.


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[Assistant] Cause if it's not Mamies, then like, who the fuck is it? Who's is it, right? Who else did you hurt? Yeah.


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[Assistant] So yeaah, I feel like it had to be an involvement somehow. I think so. But the organized crime thing really makes the most sense. It does make a lot of sense. Logistically. Now other residents around Logan have their own theories.


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[Assistant] Most having to do with Mamie being killed in order to protect the reputation of Harry and the elite citizens that moved in Mamie's circle.


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[Assistant] But regardless of who was responsible for her death these days,


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[Assistant] Have been all but forgotten by the residents of Logan County.


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[Assistant] I always love those. And some people believe that is the evidence of the enduring spirit of Mamie Thurman. She's just helping you out. Yeaah.


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[Assistant] Knowing the cool chick that she was. Yeaah. All the wild things she got up to. Exactly.


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[Assistant] Like she was a really cool chick. She was, and I, she was like so ahead of her time. Yea, she was. Just so sad that she died so young. Yea. And just, it's also really sad that one person went to prison for it.


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[Assistant] And that it's the person you're like, who is probably the least connected to it. Yeah. And the fact that Harry Robertson just got to go about the rest of his life.


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[Assistant] Yeah, I don't know about that. I don't know about any of that. But that is the tragic case of Mamie Thurman. Wow. It makes me so mad that...


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[Assistant] At the end there, it really leaves it open to interpretation and it's like...


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[Assistant] Yeaah. I don't think he was involved in it in any way. I don't think so either. I was leading you astray before. Yea, you were.


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[Assistant] Shhh. Grammatically, I'll give it to ya, but in reality, no. It's a reasease.


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[Assistant] Yeah, it's like, it's, I don't know, it's a thing. Because they are not Reese's Pieces, even though, yes, that makes more sense as well. It's Reese's Pieces.


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[Assistant] Dub-dub. Dub-dub. Dub-dub. Dub-dub. And today we decided since it's August, which basically means it's fall, that it is Halloween. Halloween!


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[Assistant] Your girl ordered a lot of ears. I love that. Thank you. That makes me happy. I'm glad. Yeah, it does. Thanks. And, I mean, it's just anything Halloween makes me happy.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] We're gonna take Sheena and Tred. Tred.


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[Assistant] Two haunted houses this year. Oh, baby. You know, Sheena Melwani, that beautiful Luna Moth. That's Alina Luna Moth, and that's my Shishi. We're gonna take her to some haunted houses. Hell yea brother. Cause it scares her.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That's great. She's a very fun person to take to a haunted house. We're sick, twisted people, okay? We are. But, you know...


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[Assistant] Perfect. So I have to start this off with a literal bang. Okay. Because this one's called Listener Tales, The Time I Got Shot in the Head and Had No Idea.


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[Assistant] Hello, my favorite weirdos. To start, my name is Allison. And you better use it.


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[Assistant] This story is far too ridiculous that anyone I know who hears it will absolutely know who I am anyway.


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[Assistant] To follow in suit with all the other listeners who write in, I cannot thank you both enough for being such a positive light.


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[Assistant] Even when telling some of the darkest tales, I'm a teacher hero and the last few years have been extremely difficult and debilitating. However, during this extremely tough time, you and your podcast have given me something to consistently look forward to as both an escape and a place I can count on for acceptance and support.


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[Assistant] I've been working on submitting this story for almost a year because, well, life, it sometimes gets in the way. But I've been going through a lot in my personal life and you have both helped me realize that sometimes you just need to put your happiness in yourself first. Fuck yeah, Alison. So here it is bitches. Let's go. Yeah, Alison. I wasn't sure which story I should write to you.


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[Assistant] No, it was not me. I am just the unluckiest human. And it just so happens that I was one of the few students out of the class when they found them because I have the bladder of a two month old and was on one of my casual trips to the bathroom from class. Or the time I was at work after school and I was trying to give directions to Vietnamese speaking parents via


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So in complete chaos, confusion, and fear, myself and another teacher that was still at work had to try and rescue all the kids that were staying after school that day from the gas explosions in Lawrence, Massachusetts. I remember that, I feel. Holy shit. I definitely remember that. Holy shit. Damn.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Finally, I decided to go with the time I was shot in the head and had no idea it happened. For months. Months, Allison? You got stories, my girl.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] To set the scene, this year, and every other year in college, I had picked an extremely original and modest costume. A sexy cat. We've all been there multiple times. I had also been just a wee bit intoxicated on Rubinoff, which let's be honest, is a mere name change from drinking rubbing alcohol.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] At the end of the night, I love that you just used like a cute little nickname for Rubinoff. You're like, yeah, Ruby, Ruby, Rubes, Ruby.


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[Assistant] That is not a fun fact. That is wild. Also, that is the story we just looked it up because we're like, why does that sound familiar? It's the one where her and her boyfriend like chased a would be like rapist out of their house.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And then they were featured on like the front of the, what was it, the? I think it was the Herald. I love the Herald. And she was like, I, I like literally looked like shit. You looked great. You looked great. But you were like, what the fuck? I was not. She was not prepared for a photo op. I was not ready for my close up here. So that was a bully.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, so that's wild that you were in the same two doors down from her at the same time that Listener Tale happened. This is wild. Connection. I have to say...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It was extremely haunting to find out that we had been living right next to her, also in a brownstone with a fire escape up to our house. Additionally, two of my roommates had actually turned where that back door opened, where that back door opened into a shared bedroom with their beds on the opposite side of the door.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] While waiting for the taxi, some people were getting a little too rowdy with their spooky spirit and alcohol consumption. And a car drove down the street past us, actually throwing beer bottles out of their car window. You know, like normal people do. Why do people do things like that?


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[Assistant] Then, all of a sudden, and in one quick moment, I heard a mind-numbing, piercing sound blaring in both my ears. Just imagine a dog's worst nightmare, or when you get ringing in your ears, but amplify that by a thousand. My ears hurt. Disoriented, I innocently looked at my friends and said, hey, am I bleeding?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Go back to our brothel, put a bag of frozen peas on the wound, and play some candy crush. Because for some reason I thought I was invincible. Especially when crushing those candies.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Fast forward, about a month or so later, I was shopping with some of my friends and one of them looked at my head and goes, oh my god, Allison, there's a huge bug coming out of your skull.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You know, as friends do. The way I would have shat myself if I was you, Allison. Contrary to popular belief, I personally would never like to imagine the mere possibility of having a bug resident in my skull.


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[Assistant] So naturally I freaked out and looked at my head in a mirror and what did I see? Something animalistic looking protruding out of my head.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And this is like a month later. Also, Allison sent a picture. She has pics.


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[Assistant] We assumed, we assumed that it was definitely linked back to that Halloween night because well, on that night my head was bleeding profusely and it was in the same location of this quote unquote bug.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Come to find out this entire time, I had been shot in the head with a BB gun and there was a bullet still lodged in my skull.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And I realized that based on the location where the bullet hit me, if I had just been a little bit taller, the bullet most likely would have hit me directly in my temple and I would have died on a street corner.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Beyond words. Also, you're beautiful. You are, and your dog is beautiful. You are a beautiful pair, the two of you. There's a legit picture of her with a BB gun in her head. Holy shit. Right there. It's there. Wild.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Look at you, you and your puppy match and I love that. You look great, you survived getting shot in the head.


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[Assistant] Everybody does. They do. We all get pissed that everyone doesn't talk the exact same way. I don't know why, but we all, I mean, I don't, but like, but everybody does it.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Everybody's pissed that we don't all say the same words the same way across the fucking board. Dialect, dialect. I've said Nevada my whole life. Me too, I've never said Nevada. And you know what?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Well, you say those words. Just uhm, the second book will be coming out at some point. So, you ready for that? I'm ready. You're great, and you're really smart.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Well, my next one is gonna be called Daddy Issues, Death by Elevator, and a Message from Beyond the Grave. Let's fucking go, girl. Let's go.


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[Assistant] Hello my wonderfully weird spooky sassy soul sisters. My name is Roxy and you can use my name and any other names used in the story. I'm just the biggest fan of the pod and the two of you. You guys are my besties and we hang out and laugh three times a week and we've never even met.


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[Assistant] But it feels like chillin' with my homies, so that's what I'm gonna call it. Chillin' with my hilarious spooky homies. While talking about murder. So thank you for your delightfully morbid banter and your compassionate storytelling. You guys are the friggin' best. Never ever changed. And change, and Elena, congratulations on the book. Thanks!


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[Assistant] But after I put myself back together, I will share it with everyone I know because girlies!


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[Assistant] This story is wild. This is a very long, deeply personal story that twists and turns for over 20 years of my life and involves a seance, an elevator shaft, and a possible murder. Writing it all out was strangely therapeutic, oh I'm glad, and I still can't believe that it all actually happened, but it did.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] This reads at around 15 minutes long, but it'll be worth it. So strap in weirdos and hold onto your butts.


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[Assistant] We really haven't. Hold on to your butts. Hold on to your booty. So to begin this story, let's jump into our time machines and travel way, way back to a time before the internet and social media and disinformation had polluted the human landscape. A pure and magical era of grunge and gangster rap.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I just felt every part of that. The pogs. Ugh. Ugh. Okay. What is pogs? Ugh. It's really hard to explain. They're these little...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I honestly, I don't know how to. If you look them up, they're like little disks and you would collect them. They had all different kinds of things on them. And then you would use a slammer.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] To slam the pogs, it was a game, but you would trade them. Is it called milk caps?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] No, they're called pogs. Uh, but they're, like you would trade them back and forth.


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[Assistant] So you get like slammers, which were metal-y and kind of heavy, and the pogs were like thinner.


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[Assistant] Like, he just looked over and was like, what the fuck are you two talking about? Are you guys okay? Alright. Just to add a bit of backstory, I was living with my mom, two little brothers, and my stepdad.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So he flew the coop. That's an old timey way of saying that bitch ghosted his pregnant teenage girlfriend for drugs, women, and freedom.


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[Assistant] This absolutely devastated my mom. She was 16 and pregnant, alone and completely heartbroken.


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[Assistant] And she never told me about the man who crushed her and left her alone while she was pregnant.


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[Assistant] I mean, I can't imagine there's ever a right time to tell your young child that their daddy isn't their daddy and that there's some strange man out there that shares your DNA and looks just like you and you have the same weird walk even though you've never even met. Oh, that's weird. Which brings us back to 1995.


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[Assistant] When I was 12 years old and completely out of the blue, my, we're like almost same age girls. I was 12 years old and completely out of the blue, my real dad called. He wanted to meet me. I was shocked. That's a really bad time. That's a bad time.


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[Assistant] I was shocked and confused and it took up a lot of very uncomfortable conversations with my mother, but she told me the truth about everything and told me that it was up to me to decide if I wanted any type of relationship with this stranger. She is such a good mama. She sounds like one. And that she would support whatever I chose. She was a good mom and she wanted me to be happy.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] At the end of it all, I decided that I just had to know. I don't blame you. So I decided to meet him. And this began a strange and dysfunctional relationship with a father who would later make me regret ever meeting him and leave me with a lifetime of trauma and daddy issues.


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[Assistant] Once a deadbeat, always a deadbeat, I suppose. It has taken decades of therapy, but eventually I've learned to forgive and heal.


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[Assistant] But this story isn't about him. This story is about his mother, my guardian angel.


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[Assistant] The grandmother that I never got to meet, but that has loved me for my entire life. May.


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[Assistant] We lived in Southern California, so we began writing letters. So for Ash and any other young ones that may be listening,


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[Assistant] Letters are how people used to communicate in the before times. It's basically an email that you write on paper and put in the mailbox and then literal pigeons deliver it to you lol. The 90s were wild. Contrary to popular belief, I have written a letter before.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Anyways, I began to get to know my new family. We talked on the phone and wrote letters for a few months and I learned that my grandmother, Mae, had been desperately wanting to meet me. She had been furious with my father for abandoning me and had begged him to do the right thing so that she could be part of her only granddaughter's life.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Right? My father's terrible life choices had taken its toll on their relationship, and over the years they had barely spoken.


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[Assistant] And how much she wanted to be my grandma and make up for all the time she had lost.


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[Assistant] So we made a plan to meet and my mother agreed. I would fly out to Washington for my 13th birthday in a few weeks and meet my new family. Back then you had to actually buy paper tickets to fly. That is really wild how much that's changed. I was gonna say that.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] A couple of weeks later, I'm sitting in science class and my name comes over the loudspeaker. I'm being called to the principal's office. As I open the door to enter, I see my mother there, her eyes wet with tears. She can't look at me or speak.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The principal or counselor or whoever the fucktwat was who comes over and sits down in front of me, you know, the cool adult way, excuse me, the cool adult way backwards in a chair.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Put that a little differently. I feel like, yeah, there's no easy way to tell her that, but I don't know.


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[Assistant] Seriously? That's what he said. Cold as ice and without blinking. It was chilling. How this man was hired to work with children, I'll never know. I looked at my mother, she just starts sobbing.


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[Assistant] Now this next part still confuses me to this day. I suppose being a child and having my first experience with death, all these grown-ups looking at me, waiting for a response, and the cold way in which I was just told the most horrific thing I had ever heard in my life.


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[Assistant] Something snap crackle popped in my brain and I started laughing. Yes, laughing.


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[Assistant] So yea, my mom saw her daughter's brain break into pieces and she snatched me up and yeeted me the fuck out of there while I laughed and cried and screamed through the hallways of my middle school.


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[Assistant] The next few days were a blur. I talked to my dad and my aunts and everyone was completely destroyed. My aunt Sam was extremely close to Mae. She had been with her moments before this happened.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] My dad never got to make amends with his mother. Everyone was just in complete shock and sick with grief. She fell down an elevator shaft. What the actual fuck? How could this happen? Just fucking how? No one wanted to talk to me about the details of her death. Understandably, I mean, I was so young and this was just so fucked up.


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[Assistant] All I knew was that there was a faulty elevator in her apartment building and she stepped in and it wasn't there.


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[Assistant] She fell five stories to her death and that was it. But there was so much more.


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[Assistant] I never got the real story until many years later when I was a grown woman, but that comes later. Oh? The next part will forever just trip me the fuck out. So remember when I said my grandma bought me tickets to come meet her for my 13th birthday?


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[Assistant] I don't really know how to act. I wanna cry with them, but I'm mostly just confused.


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[Assistant] I mean, I just met all of you and now we're all crying together? And also, she fell down an elevator shaft? What the fucking fuck? That's way too much to process. Anyway, after the initial awkwardness, the trip actually ended up being pretty awesome and quite memorable. I slept at May's apartment with my dad. I got May's room. It smelled like rosewater with a touch of cigarette smoke.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] My new cool-ons took me out in Seattle for my birthday. We all got our belly buttons pierced together. Remember, this is 1995, so piercings were super new, and I must say, I was the coolest girl at my middle school after that trip.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] We go to the funeral, and of course, super fucking sad. I meet all my great aunts and uncles and Mae's friends, and it's all so surreal and strange. I forever bonded with my new super cool, hip, funny, and soon to be best friend, Aunt Sam. Aww. She is a star character in this tale. Sam is like 12 years older than me, similar to you two.


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[Assistant] After Mae died, she moved back to California and we've been very close ever since. I love that.


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[Assistant] And as I've gotten older, she's legit my best friend slash soul sister now. Hell yea, brother. It's weird, because we both see May in each other. She lost her mom, I lost a grandma I always needed but could never have, and we gained each other.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] May brought us together. So can I get a motherfucking shout out to Sam?


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[Assistant] She also left her 1994 Bronco to my dad, and he needed to drive it back to Southern California along with her ashes.


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[Assistant] So this trip, this crazy trip wraps up with a now 13 year old me in the passenger seat of Mays Bronco, my brand ass new dad driving me from Tacoma, Washington to San Diego, with my cremated grandmother in a box in my fucking lap.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And so, and no one really wanted to talk about it. I can't blame them. This story is all kinds of fucked up.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But from what I could piece together, the official story was this. May lived on the fifth story of an apartment building, so she had to take an elevator to go to and from her place.


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[Assistant] Apparently the elevator the tenants used was out of service, so they all had to use the service elevator until it was repaired.


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[Assistant] Which is kinda weird because I stayed at Mae's apartment and I remember no sign of the stave.


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[Assistant] Anyway, Sam said goodbye to May and she went into the apartment building. Within one hour, May was dead after apparently opening the faulty service elevator to leave her apartment. The elevator was not there and she fell five stories to her death.


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[Assistant] This entire story is completely full of holes and makes literally no sense.


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[Assistant] There was a lawsuit filed against the owners of the building and the elevator company for gross negligence and a small settlement was given to May's three children.


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[Assistant] After legal fees, it amounted to around 50 grand apiece. If you ask me, that's a pretty shitty settlement after losing your mom to that kind of negligence, but what do I know? When I got a little older and Sam and I grew closer, I started asking her questions about what she thought about everything and what had happened, really happened to Mae.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] She told me that she had always had her suspicions about Dave. He was super possessive and controlling. He was a freeloader who refused to work or pay for anything and Sam just always had a bad feeling about him.


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[Assistant] And also, why was she leaving her apartment that night right after getting home? Was there some kind of argument?


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[Assistant] That's right, folks. Days after his live-in girlfriend died under very suspicious circumstances.


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[Assistant] Except when he tried to sue my dad for May's 1994 Bronco that he felt entitled to for some reason. Sketchy as fuck, Dave. Sketchy as fuck.


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[Assistant] There was an investigation, both by local police and a private investigator hired by the family. There's no evidence to prove that Dave had anything to do with Mae's death, meaning there's no proof, but things still don't quite add up, and we definitely have our suspicions about what really happened that night.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now same. Now let's jump forward a few years to 2018 or so. I know this story is taking forever, but trust me it's worth it in the end. It's been a ride.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] May has been gone for over two decades. I'm doing hair at a really cool spot in San Diego. Shout out to all my hairdressers out there.


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[Assistant] So I'm at this team building exercise thing at the salon I work at.


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[Assistant] The boss lady got a medium to cut, a medium to come to the shop and do a group reading for us. Super fun, right?


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[Assistant] So she gets started and kind of bounces around the room a bit before getting to me. She looks at me and says, there's a woman coming through that wants to talk to you, paternal, or maternal, maybe a grandmother?


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[Assistant] Her name sounds like spring. Do you know who I'm talking about? Chills. Taken aback. I said, May? Her name sounds like spring.


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[Assistant] Oh my god. The medium goes on. She says she never knew you in life, but that she's always been with you, looking after you.


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[Assistant] Yes, please just tell me, I said, trying to bet my best to keep from snotting all over my own face. She was hit on the head and pushed. Killed. I'm sorry.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The room fell silent. I thanked her for telling me and I ran out. It was intense, my dudes. I immediately called Sam and we cried together for a bit before deciding that we were going to do something totally crazy. We were going to find out the truth one way or another.


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[Assistant] So we began making plans for a Samhain seance and finally getting the truth. It was fucking on.


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[Assistant] The seance started off slow. We fucked with the board for a while before getting anything beside a few words and a lot of goodbyes. No one wanted to talk to us. But we're persistent little bitches so we kept trying and eventually started chanting May's name. What can I say? I guess the moment got away with us.


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[Assistant] We called for May to come through. We closed our eyes and put all our collective energy and focus on her. And then it happened.


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[Assistant] We could smell her and feel her presence. It was warm and comforting.


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[Assistant] The planchette moved pretty slowly at first, like it was taking a lot of energy to come through. As if we were disturbing her slumber. After a while, Sam finally blurts out, Mom, were you murdered? The million dollar question.


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[Assistant] The planchette moves swiftly up the board. Yes.


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[Assistant] And then she was gone. We can almost feel her leave. The smell of roses and tobacco just vanishes. We hug each other and we cry. We cry a lot.


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[Assistant] After that night, Sam and I decided to let Mae rest. We both felt that her spirit is at peace and that she's okay.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] She's happy and she doesn't need justice or vengeance or whatever, or whatever. Fuck Dave. He has to live with what he did.


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[Assistant] And let me say that both Sam and myself believe wholeheartedly that that garbage human that is Dave murdered Mae and got away with it.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Okay, I know, I'm crying too. I had no idea this would be such an emotional roller coaster. Wow. I literally broke down multiple times while writing this. I just think it's the craziest, most fucked up story ever, and I sometimes can't even believe it's real and that it happened to me.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Well thank you for reading my tale. I hope you guys enjoyed it and that it didn't traumatize you too much. Love both you spooky bitches to itty bitty pieces. Stay safe, stay cool, and always remember to keep it weird.


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[Assistant] I mean, May forever. May forever. You and Sam forever.


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[Assistant] You have the best fucking mom, and it sounds like your stepdad was pretty great too.


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[Assistant] Exactly, so you know what, you're killing it. And I love you, and I love that you're a 90's bitch, and I love you're awesome, Roxy, so thank you for that.


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[Assistant] Yeah, I'd be like, well, my heart stopped three times, so I'm gonna have to rest.


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[Assistant] Oh my god, and your mom and aunt are adorable. Oh, look at them! Adorable. And look at that paw.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Oh my god, and your grandparents are adorable! Aye, Mickey, that was an amazing story. That was a great one to end on. It really was. What a feel-good tale. We love ma'am, we love ma'am.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Okay, you guys went ham sandwich and ordered so many lunar dials in the, in the pre-sale there. Like, I was like, oh my god. You became entire ham hoagies is what you were? What's a ham hoagie? What is that? Isn't it like a sub?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Because you can go out into the world. This is my favorite part. And you can go to...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Hey weirdos, I'm Ash. And I'm Alayna. And this is Morbid.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, I was just saying, speaking of AI or, or maybe just like, or maybe just, you know, social media listening to you. Oh wait, I didn't mean to interrupt you, but I'm, I'm doing that. You did. You meant to. Look what I just did to my shirt.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Can you guys see that? It's wild. It's what she did to her. I put a hole in it by accident. She did. She put a whole asshole into her shirt. Damn it. Okay, Sims. You're feral. Uh, but yeah, we were.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Okay. Cause there's a lot of glitches that happen in The Sims that are hilarious, and there's also a lot of like hidden places you can go and hidden things you can do.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I feel like that's not a glitch, I feel like that's just like somebody in the office bored on a Thursday. Probably. Probably.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Wow. Yeaah. That's crazy. It's pretty fun. That's... The Sims is fun.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Gotta say, I think a lot of people agree with me, I know a lot of people, a lot of you play The Sims, I know this.


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[Assistant] I'm not a, I'm not a huge gamer. I'm not a gamer girl. I love, I was a Sims gamer girly. Yeaah. And I do love a horror video game sometimes, but I haven't played one in like,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I'm not, and I never have been a video game girly. Like remember when Papa and I was sick and he got me those computer games? The Hobbit? He got me The Hobbit and like an Ariel game, which I fucking loved the Ariel game because you just like put clothes on her. Yeah. Like it was like styling Ariel and I was like, sign me up.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But then the hobbit, I was like, do you know me, sir? But who took the hobbit game? I gave that right to her. She was like, can I play this? And I was like, yeah, get it the fuck away from me. And this bitch over here spent the- I was actually just talking about this recently. I was telling Drew about it. We were talking- I think it was when we were talking about the Nintendo thing.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But I was like, Elena overtook this fucking game. And I, past the point of me being sick, I was cured at this point. You just thriving. You were on level after level after level. That game ruled and I wanna play it again.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I think the computer needs to scare me. I'm at Papa's house. Why did it scare you? It's a freaky ass room.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Do you remember that room? I mean, yeah. Like the weird side closet and shit? I think that room was my room at one point. That room was also my room at one point. I think it was everybody's room at some point. We all like love to switch rooms all the time. Yeah. But yeah, I think that was my room at one point. Was that like your childhood room? No.


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[Assistant] People like the way we say room. Oh yeaah. I've heard people say that. Cause I think people say room. I don't think I say it differently. We say room. Room. Like room. And other people say room. Like room. This is my room.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Bye Dave. My research assistant, Dave. My best friend. We love a Dave. We love Dave.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] One of the things that I thought. That's one of the things that I thought. Alright, so the story of the haunting really gained traction on August 19th, 1996. Oh, in the 80s. It was very 80s.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] On August 19th, 1986, that was when a rather interesting news story appeared in the Wilkes Bar Times Leader.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And the article was written about the Smurl family home in West Pitson, Pennsylvania. And the Smurl family home was owned by Jack and Janet Smurl. Jack and Janet. Jack and Janet. But they claimed that's their, that's their couple song. I was going to say that's their theme song. Jack and Janet Smurl.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] They said their home was infested with ghosts wandering the halls, they were tormenting the family dog, demons were attacking the kids in the house, they were allegedly sexually assaulting the adults in the house. Oh no! It was a truly wild story from start to finish. Apparently.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Get to business. So the article. So the article. In the times leader, it got a lot of attention and soon reporters from like all over Pennsylvania and even the surrounding states wanted to get an interview with the Smurls. Oh of course. This is prime time media, my guy. Yeah.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And the Smurls, they were happy to give one. But unfortunately, during these interviews, like, people would come to the house sometimes, and all activity would cease to exist. Like, they could never


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Show what was going on in the house. They could never prove that anything had actually happened.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Even though people couldn't see what had happened with their own eyes, the press at first and actually even the church believed the Smurls.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] They were like, you know, I see what you're saying, I don't see it, but like I could see it happening. Yeah, like I get that ghosts don't have media training. So I understand why they wouldn't come out. Be a little shy, you know? It's okay. And I think the thing was like,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The lack of proof is really kind of like tugging at us and people started questioning whether or not they had really experienced any kind of haunt at all. Oh boy. So this went from like,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So people just started to talk the whole thing up to a hoax that was created by the family for like attention and fame, and they eventually lost interest.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But who knows? Maybe like something really did happen. We don't really know. Maybe. So let's get into the story and let's get into the key people involved. We got John James Jack. John. James. Jack.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So that's Jack Smirle. He was born December 19th, 1942 in Wilkes Bar, Pennsylvania to his parents, John and Mary. Uh, he was the younger of two kids and looking back he said that he actually had a pretty ideal childhood. Spent a lot of time outside with friends, they would


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Awful. I know. We went to like woods parties in high school, but we never like played in the woods. Like as a child. You played in the woods.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But overall though, Jack, he was said to be a really easygoing kid, he was smart, got along with his peers, and everybody in high school really liked him.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, and he went to a Catholic high school in Wilkes Bar called St. Mary's.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now even though he did well in school and he was clearly a pretty smart kid, after he graduated from high school, Jack was kinda just done with the whole school thing. Yea, some people are. Relatable. Yea. But he wanted to, he just wanted like some kind of excitement, he wanted a big adventure, and he wanted to go see more of the world than just Pennsylvania where he lived. Yea.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So in the early 60s, pretty much the best way to guarantee traveling was to join the military. So that's what Jack did. And he served in the Navy from June of 1960.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Until his honorable discharge in 1965. So, got a lot of travel time under his belt. Look at him!


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And it turned out that his personality, the fact that he was a worker, like he had a strong work ethic, and he was very attentive to rule following, it made him an excellent serviceman.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So he did really well during his Navy years. And while he was enlisted, he trained as an


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I'm gonna try this electroconclusive therapy technician. It was more intimidating than I thought.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But it turned out that was another thing he was really good at. And he was naturally empathetic and had like a lot of compassion.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now once he was discharged, he had big dreams of settling down, wanted to get married, wanted to start a family.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And it just so happened that during his time in the Navy, he had met a girl named Janet.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I know her. I do too. He thought she would be the perfect girl to eventually marry. He was a little bit older and Janet was in high school when they met.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, Robert Curran who wrote The Haunted, One Family's Nightmare.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Quote, had no interest in the drugs or promiscuity favored by the hippie movement. Oh yeah, fuck those people. Fuck the hippies. Yeah. AKA, my people.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now, their initial meeting was actually pretty brief, but Jack just couldn't get Janet off of his mind as he finished his ears on the service. So he was really thrilled when they met up again by happenstance.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] At the 1967 company Christmas party for Tops Chewing Gum.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, they actually both worked there, but in different departments. Oh wow. And they didn't realize it until they met at the Christmas party. Oh shit.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So it kinda seems like they were meant to be a little bit. Yea, go to those holiday parties, guys. I used to fucking love my company's holiday party. Some of them are fun. Some of them are fun. So like Jack, Janet, she was also raised a devout Catholic, so they had similar morals and values, and they bonded over those, and like I said, their personalities just really seemed to complement each other's.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So they dated for one year and then they decided to get married in this massive Catholic ceremony.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Looking back on their relationship, Janet said, I think I knew right away. I really liked the way he presented himself and the respect he had, not just for me, but all the things I valued. I like the way you move.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So Jack and Janet weren't the couple like out and about at parties, they weren't joining in on protests that a lot of people their age were joining in on at this time period. But they were just, you know, readying themselves to make a family. Jack said- They were just vibing. They were just vibing. Making plans for a fam.


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[Assistant] And Jack said, we both wanted a family and we both wanted to make sure that the family would be raised properly. Just good old Catholic folk.


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[Assistant] So the early years of Jack and Janet's marriage went really well. It was particularly pleasant.


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[Assistant] Jack was ever the hard worker. He got a promotion and a pay raise. And by the end of the 60s, Janet had given birth to the couple's two daughters, Dawn and Heather. Which I think are really pretty names. Yea. Dawn and Heather. Yea.


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[Assistant] Now, Janet had left work to be a full-time mom, and she said she saw it as not only, quote, her sacred responsibility, but a privilege as well. That's cute. So she really loved being a mama.


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[Assistant] Now as a young couple with two children support- two support, excuse me.


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[Assistant] It wasn't always easy to make ends meet on one income, so the family ended up moving in with Jack's parents, John and Mary Smurl, into their house in Wilkes Bar.


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[Assistant] Now living with Jack's parents, but Jack's parents, that's hard to say and it makes you feel like you're saying it. Yea, it is hard. Jack's parents. Jack's parents. It's cause of the two S's. Also, how biblical of them is what I meant to say. John and Mary, I didn't, for some reason that didn't


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[Assistant] That didn't hit before. Good old catholic folk. You know, just, boop.


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[Assistant] And they also had John and Mary around to help with the kids, so that was an added bonus. With the kiddos. With the kids. With the little chickadoos. Little chickadees. Chickanettes.


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[Assistant] But unfortunately, the plan hit a major snag in the summer of 1972 when Hurricane Agnes swept through the East Coast. Hurricane Agnes?


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[Assistant] But like, I don't know, a hurricane Agnes? Feels like she means...


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[Assistant] On a more serious note, it actually killed over a hundred people. I didn't even know, I have to look up this storm, I didn't know that. I hadn't heard of it either, actually. Because I think the first major hurricane in my life I think was Hurricane Bob.


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[Assistant] I think it was. On the east coast. Uhm, the one that sticks out to me the most is Ida, but she may have been recently. I think she was recent. I'm pretty sure. I don't know, I get them confused, but Hurricane Agnes I have not heard of. I'll have to look it up. Me either.


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[Assistant] But so the, so it was a really devastating hurricane for the area. But luckily the Smurls


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[Assistant] They were lucky in the sense that they didn't suffer nearly as much property damage as others did, and they were actually able to fix much of the damage. But what did happen to them was that the house was actually seized by the city through eminent domain. Oh shit, isn't that, isn't that when like they can turn it into like a hospital?


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[Assistant] Or they can turn it into like something for the city. Now that's the thing, I was like, I'm not really sure how all of that works.


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[Assistant] That's a lot of people that have to find shelter for. Exactly.


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[Assistant] Now luckily though, it actually didn't take long for Jack and Janet to find exactly what they were looking for in a duplex at 330 Chase Street in the small town of West Pitson, Pennsylvania, about half hour outside of Scranton.


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[Assistant] No, I don't. You know, you all know. I wasn't talking to you, I was talking to everyone else. I know you don't know. She wasn't talking to me? Was it me, Jesus? No, it's you, Jim. What?


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[Assistant] Now mean letter, Jack was, I know seriously, he was doing really well too. He was moving up the corporate ladder at Tops to a middle management position.


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[Assistant] And he joined the local Lions Club. Damn, look at him, assistant to the regional manager and everything. That's office. Yeah, it is. So years later, Jack and Janet, they looked back on those early years living in that home on Chase Street, and they actually agreed that they were some of the happiest times in their marriage, especially in light of all the chaos that followed. Uh-oh. So when they found their duplex on Chase Street,


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[Assistant] Like I said, seem to have everything they wanted in a home. As a duplex, it could easily accommodate, uh, Jack's parents, while still having more than enough space for everybody else.


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[Assistant] So actually Jack ended up selling his parents their side of the living space for $4,000, which would be about $25,000 now. Which like, that's a fucking deal.


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[Assistant] They all seem to be in perfect working order, which made the house feel like a steal at just ten thousand dollars. Damn.


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[Assistant] I forgot to put in the translation of that, like what it would be today. I could see you were like, I wanna know how much that is. Yeah, I forgot to put it in. It's okay.


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[Assistant] Perhaps there was a reason that it was that cheap. Perhaps there was. Dun dun dun! I'm ready to find out what it was. So the first strange occurrence anybody in the Smurl family can remember actually happened in January of 1974, just a few months after they moved into the house.


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[Assistant] So she was able to get the stain out of the rug, she just used like...


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[Assistant] So they ended up throwing away the carpet and they just didn't think much of it. They were like, well that was fucking weird, but maybe I didn't get all of it out, like maybe it dried weird, you know? They were just overall confused about the whole thing.


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[Assistant] But I should say here that the timeline of the Smurl family haunt shifts around a lot.


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[Assistant] Cause it seems like when they first went to the press, they said the whole thing lasted about a year and a half.


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[Assistant] But then the timeline shifts again and again throughout the entire story.


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[Assistant] And I think that was part of the reason why people started to have doubts. Okay.


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[Assistant] I think like obviously a real like true haunting where you have this evidence and you catch things on tape and like catch things on, you know, video and all that.


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[Assistant] That is fascinating and awesome and that's like my favorite kind. But there's something fascinating about one where you question whether a whole fucking family, including adults, are like making it up. Like there's something so fat because I'm like,


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[Assistant] You all banded together. Why did you do this? Like what a weird thing to fake is a whole haunting. It's funny that you say that in the way that you did. I don't know how to like reiterate how you said it, but I'm excited to see how that there potentially could be a reason that everybody


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[Assistant] Oh, okay. And uhm, I should mention that we might not get there until uh, part two. Oh! Sorry, forgot to tell you that.


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[Assistant] We're beginning spooky season early. Yeah, bitch. It's October somewhere. Yeah, you know? So while the stain on John and Mary's new carpet seemed relatively innocuous, in the timeline that they do later put together, it was soon followed by a whole slew of issues in the home that they believed were supernatural forces. Okay.


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[Assistant] Now just a few months after the rug incident, Jack said that he was watching the TV one night.


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[Assistant] So that's the thing, Jack and Janet were like, we got some faulty wiring up in this bitch, but then they were like, no, everything passed inspection when we bought the house. And then that TV fire was followed by other small fires in the house.


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[Assistant] Their new electric stove caught fire, and so did Jack's car, days after he brought it home from the dealership.


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[Assistant] So, uh, Ash was talking about faulty wire, and we were saying, wow, that was sinister and all that. And then I was just looking at Ash, because right now, you can't see it, but I can. Ash is bathed.


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[Assistant] And so I happened to look over to my right and I said, oh, that, that candle is really, really going. And then I looked and I was like, oh, that's a bonfire in our room right now. And it just like lit.


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[Assistant] I don't even know what lit on fire. Was it like the paper underneath it? No! No, cause we have like a little candle, like...


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[Assistant] Yeah. I guess you would call that? Like a candle holder and I think it just...


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[Assistant] Yeah, I don't know what just happened, but that was uhm, interesting. Terrifying. That could have been real bad. It was big. I wish you guys had seen it. Like not like massive, but. I should have got control of my constitution and I should have taken a video of it while Mikey put it out.


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[Assistant] So we got fire at the Smurl residence, cars, electric stoves, TVs, the whole nine.


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[Assistant] But to the Smurls, the first few unfortunate events in their home, they just kinda dismiss them as like, surprise. This is what makes me lol.


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[Assistant] They dismissed it as surprises that come along with being first time homeowners. Yeah.


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[Assistant] It definitely didn't happen to me either, but you know, everyone's experience is different, I suppose. It is, wow, it really does smell crispy in here. It does. But anyways, some of the issues like, you know, wiring, if that was the case, leaky plumbing.


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[Assistant] Those things probably could have been the result of them buying a house with a pretty long history of unknown repairs.


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[Assistant] So they chalked it up to that for a minute. I see why you don't want to immediately assume it is, you know.


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[Assistant] Sorry Baffy. There was also the fact that when these small problems would come up, usually it was Jack or John, his father, that would fix them.


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[Assistant] But, John and Janet, they eventually became convinced that there was a lot more to it.


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[Assistant] After they had installed a new sink and tub into their bathroom, they described it as looking, quote, as if the talons of some frenzied beast had clawed at the porcelain. Ooh. But maybe they had just scratched it all up during the installation. Maybe.


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[Assistant] Or maybe it was the talents of a fancy beast. I don't know. You don't know. I don't know. I wasn't there. That's the thing. So a lot of the unfortunate events in the beginning and the early years could be chalked up to, you know, poor craftsmanship and shoddy work. But that kind of explanation would not cover the sudden change in behavior of the Smurl's oldest daughter, Dawn.


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[Assistant] In 1975, she started regularly going into her parents' room in the middle of the night and telling them that she had quote, just seen people floating around her room.


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[Assistant] Now each time they would go into her room and look around, but find nothing out of the ordinary. They didn't see people floating. Unfortunately, no. No. Or maybe fortunately for them, but like, I would find that unfortunate. Yeah. I'd be like, what a bummer. I'd be like, oh, you just said you saw floating people. Don't bullshit me. Fake. Don't fake as fuck. Fake fans.


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[Assistant] So for the most part, the unusual inexplicable things that happened in the Smurlhouse, they were just minor inconveniences, disruptions in their ordinary lives.


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[Assistant] Lots of like random noises. Radios would turn on by themselves. Drawers would open and close. They would hear footsteps up and down the halls in the middle of the night. None of those things seemed to have explanations.


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[Assistant] And whenever they would happen, Jack, Janet, and the kids, they would usually just ignore them because they were kind of getting used to it. And it became much easier in 1977.


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[Assistant] When Janet gave birth to twin girls, Shannon and Karen, I believe? Or Karin? I think it's Karin, sorry. Uhm.


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[Assistant] But that would start to change in 1983, when the couple noticed an inescapable, quote, stench of smoke and rotten meat that seemed to permeate the house no matter what they did.


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[Assistant] Damn. And like no, no Febreze, no Incense, no...


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[Assistant] Flammable candle. I was just gonna say right now it smells like smoking here, but not rotten meat. They couldn't do anything to fix it. And later Jack would claim that the first time he noticed the stench was, quote,


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[Assistant] So yea, they thought that no demons, just rations and rationalities. Yep.


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[Assistant] So they were worried though that the smell was being caused by subsidence from all the heavy mining going on in the area at the time. So subsidence for those who don't know because I didn't know. I also don't know. It's when a land of area, an area of land, excuse me, starts to cave in on itself.


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[Assistant] Oh. And I guess it smells, I don't know. I was gonna say that it's stinky. I think that, I don't know why they thought it was so smelly, but.


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[Assistant] To check the foundation of the house for signs of cracking and crumbling.


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[Assistant] They had endured more than a decade of unusual and like sometimes pretty frightening events in their home. Like you have to call the fire. And that's a long time to keep up a, a ruse. It is. And after a while they said they just stopped looking for any kind of rational explanation and they just came to terms with the fact that they lived in a haunted house. Yeah.


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[Assistant] I guess they figured out a way to make it not smell like rotten meat. Yeaah. But then in 1985 all that changed again.


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[Assistant] One winter afternoon in late 1985, Janet was in the basement just, you know, separating laundry and running through her to-do list in her head, just stay at home mama things. And she was loading up the washing machine while she did this. And as she was doing that, she thought she heard someone call her name. Janet.


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[Assistant] When she heard it again, a soft female voice calling,


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[Assistant] And it seemed like it was coming from behind her. So she whipped around to confront the voice. But like we know.


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[Assistant] Experience seemed to contradict that like everything Janet knew about ghosts and hauntings just from watching TV and movies. It was the middle of the day. All the lights were on in the house. She was like, why would this happen right now?


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[Assistant] But still, here she was trying to listen over the sound of the washer and dryer for someone to call her name again.


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[Assistant] And she said that she was just thinking about how violating it was, having something in her house that she couldn't see, like she was just thinking that when she heard the voice call out her name again.


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[Assistant] And this time, Janet made horror mistake movie number no fucking it.


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[Assistant] Dead girl up the stairs. Like, you know, like haunted person. No big deal. But as soon as she got to the top, she heard her name again. Like this thing was fucking with her.


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[Assistant] So, she ran to the kitchen and she said she dropped to her knees and immediately started praying.


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[Assistant] I'm not cool with this, like this is something I can't ignore. No way, we're not on a first name basis here. No! This person think they are. Exactly. Now, as a devoutly Catholic couple, they had accepted a certain belief in a paranormal world.


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[Assistant] But it was one thing to believe in it, a totally different thing to actually experience. Of course.


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[Assistant] You know, after Janet's experience with the voice in the basement, nothing happened.


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[Assistant] Months go by, and then one February morning, after she had sent all the girls off to school, she was in the kitchen ironing. I feel like these ghosts don't like house chores. No they don't. They're like, what are you doing? They're honestly just telling her to live a little.


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[Assistant] But she was ironing and she said that she felt a sudden cold chill rush into the room.


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[Assistant] And she said she looked up from her chores, like thinking of she'd left a window open or something, only to see a quote, black human shaped form standing about 10 feet away from her.


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[Assistant] Before the mass started moving toward Janet, she just stood there, not really wanting to run or like move any kind of muscle that would alert it. So she just stood there, holding her iron in one hand and staring at the mass in her kitchen. She said eventually, quote, this is wild.


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[Assistant] It could be either. It could be a stylish superhero. You know? Look at that. We don't know. So she said the thing didn't appear to be a solid mass. She could kinda see through it slightly. And she said it was the height of an average man. But all of the sudden the shape began moving toward her. And she's just standing there frozen in place with shock.


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[Assistant] And it just kinda like moves through her, like moves like, you know? Nope. No, I don't. I don't want to. You know how that happens, like you'll just be ironing and then you just let the mask move through you? Yeah, just move right through you. You don't know about that? No, I don't. Me either.


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[Assistant] But Janet does, and she said after a minute or two had passed, she finally composed herself enough to look around the room, but it was gone.


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[Assistant] So a few minutes later she kinda went through the house and like checked the other rooms, but just like the voice she had heard in the basement, there was no sign of this figure anywhere.


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[Assistant] So when she was sure that it wasn't hiding anywhere in the house, she went over to her in-law's side of the house and knocked on the door, not really sure what the fuck she was going to tell her mother-in-law, but sure that she needed to talk to like anybody about what just happened.


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[Assistant] Now, for as long as Janet had known her mother-in-law, Mary,


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[Assistant] Janet, you know, just trying to figure out how to explain what the fuck she had just gone through to marry.


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[Assistant] When Mary leaned forward and said to her, I have to tell you something, Janet. Oh no, there's something about Mary. There is. So Janet could tell that Mary was really upset. So she was like, okay, yeah, tell me. And Mary goes, maybe you won't believe me, Janet. I don't know if I believe me. Maybe I'm getting old.


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[Assistant] And then she explained that she had been sitting in the living room praying a short time earlier.


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[Assistant] So they both had the same experience, like whenever the shape left Janet's, it just went straight to Mary. It went through the wall to Mary's side of the house. Wow.


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[Assistant] It doesn't really look like he's doing anything though. I think he's just passing through. It's just vibing. Yeah, he seems like he's just observing. Seeing girlies go to lunch with each other. Yeah, be ladies who lunch. Just like, do something, you know? At least he's not being, well, not yet.


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[Assistant] You know, I assume this doesn't stay as docile as he is right now. I don't know.


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[Assistant] I don't know how you rationalize like a black shape shifting thing with a cape walking through your house, but...


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[Assistant] So a few more weeks passed without any unusual incidents in the home and, you know, Jack and Janet suspected that their ordeal was over. It just ended one day. Yeah.


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[Assistant] But Shannon, that one of their daughters on the other hand, didn't move out of the way fast enough.


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[Assistant] So this incident reminded them about their commitment to find outside help for this problem they were experiencing, but they didn't know where to start.


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[Assistant] Janet said after that we spent hours, days, weeks talking to people who might possibly be able to help us.


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[Assistant] Weren't really taking them seriously. Yeah. Cause remember this is like the 80s and everybody's like what the fuck are you talking about?


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[Assistant] Not a lot of people had gone through this before. No. Now one of the people that they reached out to just implied that maybe they were watching too many horror movies and were letting their imaginations run wild.


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[Assistant] In one instance Jack claimed that he woke up from a nap to find himself suspended in the air above his bed.


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[Assistant] And at first he thought that he was still dreaming, but as he emerged from a sleepy state, he realized that he was very much awake


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[Assistant] And after thrashing around in the air for a few seconds, he dropped from the air and landed back on the bed with no sign of what had caused this experience.


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[Assistant] It's, it's gonna get particularly steamy here. Oh, so weeks after that on a particularly steamy night in more ways than one in June.


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[Assistant] And they were laying in bed together when suddenly something grabbed Janet by her ankle and started pulling her from the bed Allah.


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[Assistant] So, Jack grabbed a hold of Janet and he held tightly onto her as whatever it was that was trying to do whatever it was trying to do with her was trying to rip her from the bed still. Oh my god. He said, it was like a tug of war going on. I was holding onto her as hard as I could because I had no idea what the thing wanted to do to her.


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[Assistant] But the harder I tried to keep her next to me, the harder it pulled on her.


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[Assistant] Now after a few more seconds, whatever was pulling Janet abruptly let go and just seemed to vanish.


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[Assistant] And it left behind a horrible odor and started banging on the walls as it left. So it farted.


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[Assistant] You know, moment together, the moment together, it tries to steal her and then can't, so it just farts.


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[Assistant] So in the months that followed, the assault on the Smurlhaus continued and got worse and worse. Day after day, Jack and Janet said they could hear the hissing of phantom snakes, drawers and cupboards opening and closing on their own, and heavy footsteps of course walking up and down the halls at night.


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[Assistant] So they were totally still at a loss for what to do because they're still even reaching out to people and getting doors slammed in their face everywhere they go.


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[Assistant] And she also started keeping a diary of all the things that were happening in the house.


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[Assistant] And then soon, one afternoon in early 1986, a call from a friend changed the course of the Smurls' lives in ways they never could have imagined. You don't say! I do say.


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[Assistant] After a blessing by their parish priest failed to resolve the haunting, Jack and Janet were starting to lose hope.


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[Assistant] But then a new solution presented itself in the form of a phone call from Janet's friend Carla.


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[Assistant] I knew it was gonna be Carla who was gonna break this wide open. Tell John. Yeah. So Carla and Janet had been friends for years and Janet had confided in her girl Carla about all the things going on in the house and especially how much it had been affecting the family. Cause at this point it's affecting their relationships with one another. Yeah. Clearly. You gotta prove some ghosts.


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[Assistant] So Carla mentioned that she had come across the name of a professor, professor, nope, who taught at Marywood College, which was a private Catholic school in Scranton. Scranton!


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[Assistant] But anyways, so Carla's like, hey, I know this professor who teaches at a Catholic school.


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[Assistant] Wow, that's pretty awesome. But after all the negative experiences that Janet had contacting like academics like this in the past, she wasn't very hopeful. She was actually kind of worried that it was going to be a waste of time. But she was like, you know what?


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[Assistant] So she does. And the professor at Marywood College explained that his interest in the subject was purely academic and he really didn't think there was much he could do to help.


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[Assistant] But he did provide them with the contact information.


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[Assistant] You were correct. In your assumption. Oh man. And he described them as professional psychic researchers that quote, have even been hired by the United States Army. Fuck yeah. Which I know nothing about. I don't either.


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[Assistant] Now, by the summer of 1986, Ed and Lorraine, they had built up quite a name for themselves on the talk show circuit and among certain circles, uh, you know, for their involvement in dealing with the supposed haunting of


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[Assistant] George and Kathy Lutz's house in Amityville, New York. I don't know if you guys have heard of that one. I don't know. Maybe you've heard of this one, the claims of demonic possession in the murder trial of, uh, Arnie Johnson. Oh, have you heard of that one? Elena covered it. And there was a bunch of other things that they were known for.


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[Assistant] So some people had faith in Ed and Lorraine, uh, but most people were deeply skeptical, skeptical even, about their methods and motives. And the more vocal skeptics and scientific investigators usually pointed to documentation of fraud surrounding the Warrens.


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[Assistant] Like the Lutz's admission of fraud in the Amityville case. Oops. As evidence of their sus intentions. Yeaah.


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[Assistant] Now after a brief telephone conversation with the Smurls, Ed and Lorraine were pretty sure they could actually help the couple.


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[Assistant] So they agreed to travel from their home in Connecticut to Pennsylvania as soon as possible.


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[Assistant] And in their initial interview with the Smurls, Ed and Lorraine, it kind of ran through their standard battery of questions regarding.


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[Assistant] The couple's familiarity with Satanism, use of Ouija boards, practice of witchcraft,


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[Assistant] All the activities that the Warren said could lead to a demonic infestation. You know?


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[Assistant] Now, as Ed Warren continued his interview with the Smurls, when they finally got out there, Lorraine started exploring the house, and she was accompanied by her friend Rosemary, who also claimed to have psychic abilities. And also had a baby. No. Maybe, I actually have no fucking idea. But I saw what you were doing there. I picked up what you were putting down.


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[Assistant] Now the two psychic mediums immediately sense the presence of EEEE.


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[Assistant] Oh no. You won't get that unless you watch Spongebob.


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[Assistant] But it seemed to get stronger as they made their way up the stairs to the second floor of the house. And after exploring the second floor, when they reached the door to Janet and Jack's bedroom,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] They sensed that they would find whatever it was they were looking for behind that door. Oooooh. But!


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[Assistant] All that remained was to look in the couple's closet. So they did.


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[Assistant] Now up to that point, Lorraine and Rosemary claimed to have identified three ghosts in the Smurlholm. Two were benign and one was very angry. Now later, when they were assembled at the kitchen table,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Lorraine presented the profiles of the entities she believed were haunting the Smurils home.


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[Assistant] The first was an elderly woman. Lorraine said that she was quote, probably senile, but not violent. She's just confused.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Okay. The second spirit was a young woman Lorraine described as, and this is her words, not mine, an insane violent spirit who might want to harm you.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But she said the spirit could be quote, dealt with through prayer.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And then there was the third ghost, a man with a mustache who quote, possesses the ability to carry out great harm.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Oh man. So Lorraine. It's that mustache. It's the mustache. Always.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Lorraine admitted that other than that, she received no information from this specific ghost at that time or entity. But finally, they got to the fourth entity in the house, which I believe they found in the closet. And they said this demon, Lorraine said, was there to quote, create chaos.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now once Lilian had finished presenting, you know, her spirit profiles on Bumble, just kidding, Ed took over the conversation. He told Jack, it's like I said before, Jack, I suspect that the demon has been in the house dormant for decades, but one thing I know is that your girls reaching puberty gave the demon energy.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He told them about his belief that adolescents possessed a ton of psychic energy.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You're like a battery it draws on for power. It's a real psychic explosion. It wants to keep you and your family confused and afraid. That's why it often appears to only one of you at a time. Which is true. Okay.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So based on their initial investigation, Ed and Lorraine concluded that in addition to the three ghosts haunting the house,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] A demon had latched onto the smurls and was drawing energy from the family.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And because it was able to draw this energy from the family, it was growing more powerful and more aggressive and it was wearing on them day after day after day.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Janet remembered, as we listened to the Warrens and Rosemary talk, I remember feeling a strange combination of relief and dread. The dread came from knowing that Ed and Lorraine and Rosemary were confirming our worst suspicions. Our house had been taken over by a demon.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] A diamond! And the rest, you'll have to wait to hear.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] She's awesome. I trust her implicitly with horror movie recommendations and reviews. Has she seen it? If she tells me something isn't good, I'm like, fuck it, I'm not gonna try that. Like I just, I'm like, she gets it.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Those were the days, you know, sitting down and watching a movie.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, but yeaah. So, you know, lots of fun stuff happening. It's a great month. Hey, hey, hey, I'm what's happening. I hope you're having a great month. I hope everybody kills it this month. So, I think we should just get into our next spooky


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Really, uh, kind of off-putting story. Oh great. Uh, cause we're gonna talk about the Torsjöker witch trials. Torsjöker? Torsjöker. Torsjöker. Uh, they are Swedish. Uh, which was