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[Assistant] Over time, their story and that of the baleen girls became linked, even though their timelines never actually crossed. As the legend goes, the girls and their coffins were housed within that temporary convent.


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[Assistant] Later, when it came time to move to the new building, the nuns paraded through town with baggage carts covered in a canopy.


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[Assistant] Those who whispered the dark stories claim that this would have provided the perfect distraction for moving several coffins across town without raising suspicion.


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[Assistant] These vampires, according to legend, were then housed on the third floor of the new convent building, locked in the attic by the nuns to keep them from terrorizing the town. The attic had originally been designed as a dormitory for orphans, built with six individual rooms, three of which were equipped with fireplaces.


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[Assistant] There was also a room that was not included in the original plans. It was allegedly meant to hold girls suffering from mental health issues. Its walls were made of brick rather than wood, and it was sealed with a Dutch door that allowed meals to be passed through while keeping the nuns safe.


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[Assistant] The stories claim that this particular level of the convent was completely sealed off. The shutters on its windows were permanently closed, with, they say, nails that were allegedly blessed by the Pope. But those stories left folks wondering, were they trying to keep people out, or keep something else inside?


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[Assistant] Even today, every once in a while, one of the shutters blows open during a bad storm. And when it does, some people have reported seeing a face in the window peering out at them, or the uneasy feeling of a pair of eyes watching them from afar.


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[Assistant] That's ironic, really. The legends about immortal creatures with a thirst for blood never seem to die. In fact, vampires seem to be more alive than ever before. And as a lover of dark tales whispered around the campfire, I'm alright with that.


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[Assistant] So when we bump into examples of earlier stages of that lore, I find it exciting. Yes, we know that the legends are old, but hearing those stories really helps it all come home.


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[Assistant] But along the way, there have been some lulls in this obsession. In the mid-18th century, for example, the vampire panic in Europe started to wind down. This was mostly thanks to the publication of a book by a French scholar and theologian named Dom Augustin Calmet. It was called Treatise on the Apparitions of Spirits and on Vampire.


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[Assistant] It examined the accounts throughout folklore of various paranormal phenomena, including vampires in Eastern Europe. Calmet concluded that such creatures were nothing more than products of the imagination.


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[Assistant] But to the people who lived near the Ursuline Convent, Calmay's beliefs couldn't have been further from the truth. The convent still stands in New Orleans at 1100 Shart Street, and its third floor, complete with sealed shutters, still remains a point of interest.


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[Assistant] And its history of vampire activity is not, as it turns out, restricted to the 18th century. In fact, a much more recent legend has cropped up in the last several decades, breathing new life into the old building.


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[Assistant] Back in 1978, two paranormal researchers decided to see if the rumors about the Casket Girls actually being vampires were true. So they set up camp and cameras in front of the convent and then waited.


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[Assistant] They hope to witness something strange along the building's perimeter. Hours passed. No ghostly presence made itself known, nor did an ashen, sharp-toothed vampire emerge from the third floor. It seems that sitting outside the convent in the dark wasn't exactly a thrilling task.


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[Assistant] All that watching and waiting with no payoff took its toll on their resolve. Slowly, the researchers dozed off. And it was in that short span of time when something made itself known. By opening and closing the shutters. The same shutters that had been sealed permanently with those blessed nails all those years before.


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[Assistant] And the cameras they had propped up to record the event suddenly stopped. It seems that there would be no proof of what happened at the convent on this night. Which, to be honest, is a shame.


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[Assistant] Because the following morning, the two lifeless corpses of the investigators were discovered. Whatever had killed them must have had claws like a wild bear because their bodies had been ripped open in a frenzy and drained of all their blood.


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[Assistant] I hope you've enjoyed today's exploration of this particular corner of folklore. It seems that the combination of vampires and New Orleans has always been attractive. Even today, people are still thirsty for more. And that's a good thing, because we've tracked down one more vampiric legend from this beautiful city.


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[Assistant] Stick around through this brief sponsor break to hear all about it.


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[Assistant] New Orleans is a big city with a long history, and the Casket Girls are only one part of that deeper lore. It seems that there are other vampire legends associated with the Big Easy, and one of them happens to be a more recent addition.


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[Assistant] In 1932, a young girl was walking down Royal Street when she was stopped by a police officer. He noticed that she was nervous and out of sorts, and asked her what had happened. The girl told him everything, but her story sounded strange, almost too dark to be true. Still, she stood by every word.


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[Assistant] She explained how two brothers had kidnapped her and tied her up alongside several others. The only reason she was able to escape, she said, was because they hadn't tied her ropes tightly enough, making it possible to slip away and find help.


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[Assistant] But according to her, the men had done something even worse. She said they were draining their victims of their blood.


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[Assistant] Her tale sounded like something out of a horror story. The officer wasn't totally convinced, but he decided to indulge her anyway, and together they walked back to the house she had come from. It was a short distance away, at the corner of Royal Street and St. Anne, and it was owned by John and Wayne Carter.


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[Assistant] Now, from the outside, it was an unassuming house on a pretty normal street. Nothing out of the ordinary. So it wasn't until the officer stepped inside that he realized the gravity of the situation. That young girl had been right all along.


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[Assistant] Inside, the officer found four other people, all tied to chairs in various stages of consciousness. Their bloody wrists had been bandaged, almost as if someone had been trying to keep them from bleeding to death.


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[Assistant] Then, in another room, the corpses of two other victims were discovered, both wrapped up in blankets like impromptu mummies left to rot.


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[Assistant] The Carters, though, were nowhere to be found. It seems that they were known to leave the house every morning before the sun came up and then return hours later after dark.


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[Assistant] All while the people inside suffered in agony.


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[Assistant] Once back, they would remove the bandages from their victims' wrists and reopen the wounds, letting the blood drain into chalices.


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[Assistant] And I'm sure you can guess what they did with those gruesome beverages. It was as if these captives were no longer people. They were cattle, meant to provide food until their usefulness had run out.


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[Assistant] Realizing that the Carters would return later that night, the police prepared and waited. And sure enough, the pair came home, ready to drain their victims once again. When they did though, the police sprang into action and immediately arrested them.


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[Assistant] The Carters, now in handcuffs, broke down before the police. They confessed to everything they had done and begged to be put out of their misery. They told the officers that they weren't human. They were, in fact, vampires. And if they weren't killed, they would continue to hunt the living of the city.


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[Assistant] The police didn't buy the story, though, and the two men were tried and convicted as serial killers before being hanged for their crimes.


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[Assistant] According to author Marita Chandler of New Orleans Vampire's History and Legend, it was a common burial practice in New Orleans to place freshly deceased bodies in above ground vaults for a little over a year. The swampy nature of the soil beneath the city often made below ground burials impossible.


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[Assistant] Then, once a corpse had decomposed, the remains were placed in some kind of container, and then pushed to the rear of the vault in order to make room for a new body.


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[Assistant] Well, as the legend goes, when it came time for the Carter brothers to be packed away like that, the vault was found to be empty, with no remains inside. Which begs the question, had someone stolen them?


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[Assistant] Or had the pair truly been immortal, escaping into the night?


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[Assistant] Ever since, witnesses have claimed to see two men with strong resemblances to the Carter brothers. Two men dressed in nice, old-fashioned clothing who are often spotted on the second-floor balcony of their old house at the corner of Royal and St. Anne, looking down on the city, watching and waiting.


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[Assistant] This episode of Lore Legends was produced by me, Aaron Manke, with writing by Harry Marks and Aaron Manke, and research by Sam Alberti. Don't like hearing the ads? I've got a solution for you. There is a paid version of Lore on Apple Podcasts and Patreon that is 100% ad-free.


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[Assistant] Plus subscribers get weekly mini-episodes called Lore Bytes. It's a bargain for all of that ad-free storytelling and a great way to support this show and the team behind it.


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[Assistant] Lore is much more than just a podcast. There's a book series available in bookstores and online and two seasons of the television show on Amazon Prime Video. Information about all of that and more is available over at lorepodcast.com.


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[Assistant] And you can also follow this show on threads, Instagram, Facebook, and YouTube. Just search for Lore Podcast, all one word, and then click that follow button. And when you do, say hi. I like it when people say hi. And as always, thanks for listening.


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[Assistant] Joe and I shouldn't have smoked that cause I got the munchies.


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[Assistant] Okay, are we going? Alright, let's get this going. Podcast number, what number podcast is this? This is number five. This is number five.


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[Assistant] And it's big news because we've got a guy on board with us. We talked about him. Ricky's got a big crush on him. We think. Wackerly.


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[Assistant] Michael Weckerle, he's on board, he's gonna sponsor us for four more podcasts. Who is? Weckerle. The guy for the- He's sponsoring us now? For the Dragon's Den, that guy.


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[Assistant] Oh no, we're gonna get something. You get most of it? I'm not gonna get most of it, it's gonna come, it's gonna be like a pool of money that's gonna come to us, and then we split it up.


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[Assistant] It's a wonderful feeling. I'm sure it's wonderful for you, but for most people that don't smoke as much as you, you know, it's panic time. I'm fucking panicked.


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[Assistant] Let's see. It's a good one. It's scraped up, it's purple. Holy fuck, Ricky. I thought you were just teasing.


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[Assistant] Okay, well he's got, uh, number one, he's on, on the dragon stand.


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[Assistant] Yeah, we're all fucking well aware of that, but we've already talked about it.


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[Assistant] With who? The president's fucking wife or daughter. Pierre Trudeau's wife, Margaret Trudeau. They say that after they played there, her and Mick, they hooked up. They may have banged, they could have, I don't know, she did something to him. I never heard that. You've never heard of that.


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[Assistant] His wife, yeaah. No, not Pierre Trujot. No, maybe he was there too. I thought you meant Pierre. Nick wouldn't have gave a fuck, that's for sure. Didn't he bang David Bowie?


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[Assistant] Yeah, the people, I mean, that has, that's out there. The people have been saying that for years. They have? Yeah, man.


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[Assistant] Oh shit, he's just fucking saying that, so I'll keep fucking going here. No, he's gonna be on


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[Assistant] So you're not gonna do the fucking podcast if we don't get a guest? I dunno.


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[Assistant] Yeah. Preston! Oh yeah. We're not gonna get Preston, are we?


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[Assistant] Do the guys get to smoke bubs? Yeaah, the guys can smoke.


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[Assistant] Let's get back to Chipper. How is his wife and kids doing and stuff like that? Have they coped well with what's going on in his life?


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[Assistant] Pansexual. Like, do you have sex in a pan? I've heard that expression before. Pansexual. What the fuck you talking about? Never heard that. Transexual, maybe. I thought he said he was pansexual. I don't know. Whatever, I guess whatever pans out, you'll do it.


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[Assistant] There's many layers to that, Ricky. Yes, I think he's being forced. Yeah. You know, by the, by the you-know-whos. Who is the you-know-whos?


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[Assistant] Yeah, and they made her put on more makeup than she was comfortable with and all this other crazy shit. Oh yeaah, and then she found it later on, I guess that's what it was, an audition for, for to be his girlfriend. I was, I don't know, just saw it in one of the newspapers, man. Just trying to come up with ideas, what do you guys got?


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[Assistant] Oh, that's, I mean. I just thought it was weird and different, maybe it was good, now you're making me feel like it could be creepy, I don't know, but. Okay, okay, so he's getting chicks to audition to be his girlfriend, so. I mean, how many chicks does he audition to, you think like, a bunch or?


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[Assistant] Okay. You love cats? I love cats. Of course I do. Fat. This one's like...


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[Assistant] Sofa? When a cat fucking took the bullet for it. Saved the kid. And the cat actually survived, so it's kind of a happy ending, kind of fucked that it happened.


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[Assistant] Son, there's sex things in supercats. Bob, that's fucked up. I've dealt with supercats over the years. Oh, really?


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[Assistant] She needed some money for bills and I guess people came through.


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[Assistant] They did. I watched Cole Casefoss, now they probably, you know. Technology is what fucked him over.


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[Assistant] The legend, they haven't proved it yet, have they? No, and he's 72, I mean, he's gonna probably spend the rest of his life in jail. Jimmy Snuka. Snuka. He had a good run. He had a good run. He had a good run. He really did it.


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[Assistant] Alright, another, another story, uh, about someone going to jail, or someone that actually just got released from jail. Judge Joe Brown, the guy at his show. Yeah, he's fuckin' cool. He went to jail five days, man. Didn't like it.


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[Assistant] Basically told him to go fuck yourself, judge, whatever your name is. And the judge threw him in jail for five days.


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[Assistant] Yeah, he was melting off. They did, I don't think they got into a fistfight or anything. Maybe they did, I don't know. He probably warned him, you're in contempt, sir.


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[Assistant] I don't think you classify that as bad parenting, Ricky. I think it's beyond that. It's bad human-ing. Bad human-ing?


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[Assistant] Ricky, basically, you know what? Anybody that leaves like a load of guns around their house with kids around, they're fucking dumb. So you're in the same category as this other guy that shot his daughter. It depends what happens. There's never really accidents and then no one's dumb, right? This guy got cocked. He was dumb. And this guy fucked it up, not the daughter.


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[Assistant] We can all right now, the four of us make $25 or get $50 in free tuna.


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[Assistant] There's some fuckin' lawsuit goin' on, it's a tuna lawsuit, and if you bought tuna in the last 10 years, they'll give you 25 bucks, or you can get 50 dollars with a free tuna, so that's what I'm fuckin' doin', this tuna lasts forever.


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[Assistant] What are you talking about? If you bought tuna in the last 10 years, they'll give you 25 bucks. Dequalify. 25 bucks. From who? Or 50 bucks in free tuna. But who gives it to you? Tuna company, I guess.


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[Assistant] Rikki's coming through here. Free money for people, free tuna for people. You guys are offering people nothing. You got anything else? Rikki's like tuna Robin Hood. Yep. Just for that Rikki gets a bonus joint.


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[Assistant] Oh, and you told me to fucking look into what's happening with these fucking crazy celebrity whack jobs. What crazy celebrity whack jobs?


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[Assistant] There's always people fucking around, apparently by the dick you're going at it again. What do you mean going at it?


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[Assistant] Well, not the way you're probably hoping and thinking, but they're fucking, I dunno. What's going on? They're fucking arguing with each other again. Nicki Minaj? Yep.


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[Assistant] You guys told me to check this shit, I don't even know what the fuck these people do or what they are. Taylor Swift, Ferret, apparently.


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[Assistant] Yes, we were, uh, just gonna talk about that maybe, I don't know. Alright, thanks, Preston. Yeah, that was fucking...


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[Assistant] SnoopDizzle, confirmed. I might have to get extra fucked up for that one.


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[Assistant] It's gonna be decent. It's gonna be decent. Alright boys, we gotta wrap this up. Do we?


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[Assistant] Yeah, it's been like over a half hour you've been sitting here. No. Talking about absolute bullshit. It was fucking lame. Didn't get to talk about the fucking this, but oh well.


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[Assistant] That's a good point. Ah, fuck, see, this is a tough one. Be kinda good just to stop it right now, and just say, tune in next week.


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[Assistant] Governor Scott Walker wants to put a fucking wall up between Canada and the United States of America. That is fucked. A wall? A fucking wall.


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[Assistant] And what's he gonna accomplish? Does he think he's gonna keep us out of there? Go ahead!


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[Assistant] So still, just let people in and out, it'll just be a nice pretty wall. We just got nothing better to spend 30 billion dollars on. Fuck it, it'll be beautiful. That's fucked. I thought it was a little fucked. I think maybe. I think it's fucked too, so we're all- What's his name?


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[Assistant] Scott Walker. Scott Walker, I think he might be.


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[Assistant] Maybe just barbed wire so you're cruising along a lake in your boat and all of a sudden your fucking neck gets cut off. That's a good question. There's fucking airports in the way, there's people's homes, like, it just... Wow.


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[Assistant] A little bit. Sorry guys. You know what, next time I'm bringing nothing, except the buzz on, and you guys are in charge of all of it. Okay? You got it. Snoopy the dog. We'll just see if that really happens. I fucking highly doubt it. Alright, sign off, bubs.


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[Assistant] What? Sign off, we're done. Why am I signing off?


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[Assistant] Just there, I saw it off and you guys didn't even know it. So did I. See you later. I'm done. That's the end of...


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[Assistant] It was a city of wealth and power. Located about 150 miles south of Rome, close to the west coast of Italy, the location took its name from the five separate boroughs that made up the community of over 10,000 people. And the way they lived there speaks of privilege.


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[Assistant] Massive public bathhouses, large private gardens, and beautiful artwork could all be found throughout the city. Water provided by an aqueduct


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[Assistant] Pressurized water into buildings and homes, plus an elaborate toilet and septic system all work together to make life a lot easier on everyone.


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[Assistant] It was a retreat town for the wealthy of the area and a home to the hardworking people who kept it all running.


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[Assistant] Along the way, folks were given every opportunity to rise above, decline the ladder, and build their own fortune. And then, a little less than 2,000 years ago, it all came to a sudden and deadly end when a nearby volcano erupted.


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[Assistant] In its wake, all we have left is a city frozen in time. Pompeii.


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[Assistant] There's no doubt that wealth can certainly act like insulation against many of the challenges that life has in store for us.


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[Assistant] But as the tragic story of Pompeii reveals, sometimes nothing can stand in the way of bad things happening, no matter how much cash we have in the bank.


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[Assistant] For one woman in Ireland, those bad things arrived at the end of a long and privileged life.


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[Assistant] But it wasn't a natural disaster that brought it all down upon her, or a literal cloud of ash that stripped her world of beauty. It was an idea.


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[Assistant] Every country has something that makes it unique. For better or for worse, when certain places come to mind, they conjure thoughts of specific events or foods or even attitudes.


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[Assistant] England has Stonehenge, France is known for their wine, and Italy has pasta and the Colosseum. Name a country and then identify the first thing that comes to mind, like Egypt and the Great Pyramid. You get the idea.


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[Assistant] But when I mention Ireland, I'm willing to bet that almost none of you think about witches. Fairies, yes. Stories like the tragic murder of Bridget Cleary drive that belief home in powerful ways. But compared to places like Germany, Scotland, and England, there isn't a common association between the Emerald Isle and witchcraft.


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[Assistant] The records support that too. Germany was the site of 40% of all witch trials between 1400 and 1800. Scotland comes in second. And of course, England is in the mix pretty strongly as well. But Ireland?


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[Assistant] Barely a mention, and a big part of the reason why, is religion.


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[Assistant] We've talked about this before, but the Protestant Reformation played a huge part in witch trials, if only indirectly. And yes, it sounds like I'm giving you a religion lesson, but as we've always discussed here, context is king.


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[Assistant] You can't understand the stories we tell, even the ones that are thrilling and scary, without first wrapping your head around the systems and outside forces that made those stories possible.


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[Assistant] The Reformation was this moment in history when churches all across Europe essentially rebelled against the Catholic Church, creating a new branch on the tree that historians and theologians classify as Protestant churches.


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[Assistant] Because they were protesting. But in the moments on the ground, what was happening was basically a marketing PR battle between an old brand and a new upstart. And friends, it got ugly.


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[Assistant] Imagine a time when the politics of the day were so heated and so violent that each side accused the other of devilish things like eating babies, drinking the blood of children, and being in a godless cult in the disguise of the real church. It sounds far-fetched today, I know, but back then the best way for one side to attack the other


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[Assistant] Germany. And where did the most witch trials in Europe happen? Yep, Germany again.


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[Assistant] What was unique about places like Spain, Portugal, and Ireland? Well, they remained firmly Catholic, so there was less of a battle going on there. And therefore, less of a run-in with witch accusations and trials.


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[Assistant] And then English colonialism had to go and screw all of that up. Remember King Henry VIII and his trouble getting divorced within the Catholic Church? And that led him to breaking England off and forming its own branch of the Church, putting the new Church of England at odds with the old Catholic Guard.


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[Assistant] And they took that conflict with them when they colonized new countries.


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[Assistant] The Ireland before the arrival of the English was a very different place. Now, I'm gonna be clear here. Ireland's history with the English is a lot bigger and much more complex than I could ever adequately cover in one episode. But there are two features that need to be mentioned. They were historically Catholic and had different laws on the books than English common law.


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[Assistant] They also had a different, more equitable approach to society, but I'll get to that a bit more later. It's probably most telling though that by the time the Irish Parliament passed their first anti-witch ordinance, it was 1586, and England had already spent centuries following and tightening up two of their own. In fact, one historian notes that in the 16th century,


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[Assistant] The Archbishop of Dublin, a guy named William King, commented that the witchcraft panic had never really even started in Ireland.


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[Assistant] Although that wasn't entirely true. And one good example was the story of Florence Newton.


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[Assistant] Like so many accused witches, Florence fit the social outcast description perfectly. She was poor and living on the edge of society. And just like the event that kicked off the Salem witch trials, she arrived at the home of a prominent man in 1661.


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[Assistant] The maid of the house, a gal named Mary Longden, turned her away though. And this was an era where hospitality was incredibly important.


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[Assistant] You can imagine how upset Florence was when she was sent away. So she said something to Mary that the maid took as a threat.


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[Assistant] Now, Florence apparently tried to make things right after that. She even kissed Mary on the cheek and asked to be friends again. But a short while later, Mary fell ill and started to exhibit odd symptoms. So she mentioned her encounter with Florence and turned the poor woman in.


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[Assistant] Then while in jail, Florence reportedly kissed the hand of her jailer.


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[Assistant] And so did fantasy. People claimed that they had seen the bewitched maid hovering above her bed. Others said that they had seen stones rain down from her body. So the town tortured poor Florence to get a confession, then put her on trial where she was declared guilty. After that, the record goes cold.


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[Assistant] Florence Newton most likely died as a result of those events. In Ireland at the time, men who were guilty of witchcraft that led to the death of another person would be hanged and then drawn and quartered. Women, on the other hand, would be burned, usually after first being strangled to death.


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[Assistant] The strangling was thought to be a mercy, but history always gives us a better view of the past, and it's hard to see any of it as anything more than cruel and unnecessary. Then again, when fear is the motivator, anything can happen, can't it?


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[Assistant] For example, in ancient Ireland, women could be kings. They could lead armies in battle. If they didn't want to be warriors, they could be religious leaders like druids or priestesses. Women were allowed to be teachers, lawgivers, and even physicians. Revolutionary privilege compared to the rest of Europe. When it came to money, they had


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[Assistant] Now the agent of change was Christianity, which you have to think of as an ever-evolving stew that had been moving across Europe. And as it had, it was picking up cultural elements from various places and then incorporating them into the fabric of its faith.


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[Assistant] For example, church law elsewhere had a much less equitable view of women, of wealth, and of rights.


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[Assistant] So by the time the Catholic Church arrived in Ireland, it already had a distinctly patriarchal flavor. Which is why when Alice was born there in 1263, she was raised at a sort of social liminal space. One powerful foot in the old world, one less than equal foot in the new. But she did her best.


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[Assistant] Now, according to some sources, Alice's father worked in the banking industry, but sometime just prior to 1280, he unexpectedly passed away, which led to two important outcomes. One, Alice inherited his fortune, and two, she was rushed into marriage a little sooner than she might have been expected to.


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[Assistant] Her husband was a man named William Outlaw, and he was just as rich as she was. The couple eventually had a son, also named William, but after a few years, Alice's husband William died without warning. And that meant that not only did she retain ownership of her own fortune, but now she inherited his too. Alice had just moved up in the world.


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[Assistant] Now let's be clear. Alice lived in an Ireland that still afforded a lot more rights and equality to women than most other countries. She had a loving son who was helping her run her new side business, a popular inn and tavern in Kilkenny. And to be honest, she really didn't need to get married again. But in 1302, that's exactly what she did.


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[Assistant] Husband number two was a guy named Adam LeBlanc. He came to the marriage with kids of his own, as well as a lot more money. Alice and Adam didn't have any kids of their own,


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[Assistant] But they raised William together, and in 1303, he was officially declared to be an adult. And that's when Adam did something odd.


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[Assistant] He issued something called a quick claim in 1307 that basically gave his young stepson, William Outlaw, a whole bunch of money and possessions. We're talking cash, jewelry, household items, and more. And Adam's other kids weren't too happy about this. And then in 1308, just a year after that generous gift, Adam died unexpectedly.


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[Assistant] Now at this point, it's clear that marriage wasn't just a practical business partnership for Alice. It seems that she genuinely liked having a husband and a partner in life. So just a year after Adam passed away, she married for a third time to one Richard DeValle. And guess what? He was rich as well, being a wealthy landowner.


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[Assistant] A few years later though, two big events happened that changed the course of Alice's story.


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[Assistant] In 1324, Alice married husband number four, another rich landowner, a guy named Sir John Lepore.


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[Assistant] Four husbands in four decades, all of them rich and all of them passing their wealth onto her and her son instead of their own other biological adult children.


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[Assistant] For Alice, it was a blessing. For all those stepchildren, though, it was a curse. And after noting the changing social climate in Ireland, those disgruntled parties decided to make a stink. And the results show folklore at its worst.


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[Assistant] The weapon used against Alice Keidler would be a newcomer to Ireland, the Catholic Bishop of Ossory, Richard de la Ludredy, and the evidence would begin with her fourth husband's decline.


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[Assistant] Now some accounts say that his fingernails and hair began to fall out, and over time, he became so weak that he couldn't even get out of bed.


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[Assistant] But before the illness claimed his life, he managed to gather Alice and her son William Outlaw to his bedside and declare them to be the inheritors of all his wealth.


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[Assistant] Had all of this taken place three or four centuries later, the immediate suspicion would be poison. Probably by arsenic, right? We've heard a number of stories like that here before. But this was the early 14th century, and the lens through which people viewed illness was oriented a little bit different. For the folks around Alice, the only answer?


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[Assistant] Never mind the fact that maybe all of her former husbands just really cared for Alice and William. Or that illness was incredibly common. Early mortality rates were always high then. And that men commonly died before their wives back then. It definitely had to be something supernatural, of course, right?


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[Assistant] And that's where Ludredy comes into the picture. On paper, he should have had a lot in common with Alice. They were born around the same time as each other, and they grew up in the same relative obscurity as she did. But where she was born into a Flemish immigrant family in Ireland,


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[Assistant] He'd spent time in Europe under very different social rules, including time in Evan Young, where he witnessed the Papal Inquisition firsthand.


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[Assistant] This is the same Inquisition that took down the Knights Templar, and that sort of power was attractive to Ludredi, so he brought that New World Order with him to Ireland. As a result,


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[Assistant] Seven different charges were filed against Alice, including all sorts of wild accusations that would resonate with a Catholic bishop looking for devilish deeds.


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[Assistant] She was accused of making animal sacrifices at crossroads, of stealing the church keys so she could perform dark rituals inside the church building, and of course crafting potions that would kill people.


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[Assistant] And most importantly, they claimed that she used witchcraft to trick her husbands to give their fortunes to her, and then killed them with that same sorcery. So using a 30-year-old Irish law that forced civil authorities to obey the instructions of any bishop, Ludra D had her formally accused of witchcraft.


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[Assistant] What he didn't expect, though, was for the brothers of two of her former husbands to come forward to advocate in her favor.


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[Assistant] One of them, Richard Outlaw, was a prior of the Hospitallers of St. John, and well connected. Another, Arnold Lepore, was her fourth husband's brother, friend to her son William, and most importantly, a powerful local governor.


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[Assistant] And the port actually managed to get Bishop locked up for over two weeks, which, as you'd imagine, didn't make Ludra D too happy.


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[Assistant] When the bishop was finally released, he excommunicated Lepore and then shut down religious services in the diocese, essentially cutting every living person off from the benefits of the Church.


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[Assistant] No baptisms to save their souls. No marriages. No burials to send their loved ones into the afterlife. It was a campaign designed to sway public opinion against Alice. And it worked.


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[Assistant] After an unfortunate incident where the bishop was forcing his way into a civil trial that was being presided over by Lepore, he got kicked out by the authorities and then demanded the arrest of Alice and her son William.


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[Assistant] But Alice was a fighter. While the bishop had been battling it out with her former brother-in-law, she had traveled to Dublin to present her case in court there.


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[Assistant] But it was quickly becoming a man's world instead of the more equitable society that Alice had grown up in, and public opinion soon became overwhelmingly against her. Using her money and connections, Alice packed up and left town.


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[Assistant] And in doing so, she most likely avoided a brutal trial, barbaric torture looking for an admission of guilt, and a horrific death.


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[Assistant] Even today, historians don't know where she ended up, although William remained behind to keep their tavern open and operating.


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[Assistant] Our journey on this show has always been about one thing. The power of folklore to break free from our whispers and stories and have dangerous influence over the world. And few topics within folklore provide as many examples of that as witchcraft trials.


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[Assistant] Yes, sometimes we need a little background history lesson to understand how that can even be possible. But the truth remains clear. From time to time, our belief in the supernatural has driven us to real world actions and decisions. And actual human lives have paid the price.


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[Assistant] Thankfully, the story of Alice Keidler is an exception to that dark rule. She was able to use her connections and cash to buy her way to freedom, although her disappearance didn't stop the Bishop of Ossory from concluding her trial.


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[Assistant] He had her tried in abstentia and declared guilty of witchcraft.


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[Assistant] Considering how some of the charges against her included the murder of her fourth husband, she most likely escaped a painful death by strangulation and then the burning of her corpse.


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[Assistant] Her son William was not executed, but he suffered his own consequences for his part in the story.


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[Assistant] He was convicted for harboring a heretic and then sent to prison, although some powerful friends managed to get that sentence commuted to something a little better.


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[Assistant] William had to attend three masses each day for a year, and he had to fund the covering of a local cathedral's roof with lead.


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[Assistant] A year later, William doesn't seem to have adhered to all of those instructions, and so he was arrested again.


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[Assistant] He bartered his way out a second time, with a pilgrimage to the Holy Land now replacing those daily masses, and oddly, he was told to cover the cathedral's roof with lead for a second time.


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[Assistant] Social status has always played a role in witch trials throughout history. The story of Alice Keidler definitely shows those dynamics at play. And I hope you can see how Ireland offered a different sort of setting for such a familiar bit of folklore.


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[Assistant] But not everyone had Alice's money and power. We've got one last tale to tell, and this one focuses on someone with a lot less in the bank. Stick around through this brief sponsor break to hear all about it.


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[Assistant] Like I said before, the way a community runs itself can have a huge impact on the way it handles its fears and superstitions. And 400 years after the trial and escape of Alice Keidler, Ireland had become a very different stage for those sorts of events. Her name was Dorcas Kelly.


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[Assistant] Go ahead and give that a little chuckle. Yes, her name was Dorcas. And yes, that would probably get her mocked and ridiculed in a modern American middle school.


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[Assistant] But back in the mid 1700s, the name was a lot more common than you'd think. So let's just roll with it.


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[Assistant] We don't know a lot about her early years. In fact, a lot of her life is a mystery to us, but to be honest, that's par for the course for most people from the 18th century. The first time she appears on the public record, as far as I can tell, was 1760, when she was arrested. What her crime was, well, we'll get to that in a moment.


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[Assistant] First, from those accounts, we learned that Dorcas Kelly owned a brothel called the Maiden Tower.


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[Assistant] It was a little bit of power in a rough and difficult world.


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[Assistant] That's not to say that sex work was uncommon in Dublin in the mid 1700s. Quite the contrary. It was everywhere. It just wasn't a very respected line of work.


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[Assistant] There were a lot of women out on the streets trying to make ends meet. Something that had become a lot more challenging in the days since Alice Keidler, for sure. Without equal footing in society, many of the women who weren't born into privilege were forced to find other ways to earn money for food and lodging. Sex work was a common option.


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[Assistant] Now Dublin is a seaside community, so you'd probably be unsurprised to learn that most of these women worked close to the quaysides and the river, where sailors came in and out of the city.


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[Assistant] Their territory spread out from their places like Cork Hill, Cook Street, and Wine Tavern Street. Most women had no place to live and had to find work wherever they could. Dorcas Kelly owned one of the better solutions, a brothel, which allowed women to work in one place and let the customers do the traveling.


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[Assistant] Owning a brothel in Dublin, just as much as in most other cities, earned Kelly a bit of a reputation, which is probably where the rumors started.


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[Assistant] It's said that she became pregnant in 1760, although the father's identity wasn't certain.


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[Assistant] Now, a few claimed that he was just some random client, but most whispered that it was her romantic partner, the Sheriff of Dublin himself, Simon Luttrell.


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[Assistant] And here's where one rumor blended with another. Because Luttrell was a known member of an organization called the Hellfire Club. It was a secret society made up of wealthy men who gathered to drink and gamble.


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[Assistant] Thanks to their name though, and a healthy dose of rumors of course, people believe that the Hellfire Club got up to a lot more than just card games and shots.


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[Assistant] It was, in short, a gathering devoted to dark rituals and the worst of human nature. So when Dorcas Kelly told Simon Luttrell that she was pregnant with his child, he leaned into those rumors to defend himself.


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[Assistant] Kelly, he claimed, had used witchcraft against him. A short while later, he used his powerful connections as sheriff to have her arrested and executed. That's the story anyway.


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[Assistant] Truth be told, there's no concrete evidence to support any of that. All we have on record is that she was arrested in 1760 in connection with the death of another man named John Dowling. A year after that, she was executed.


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[Assistant] After her death, the legends only evolved. Some whispered that the bodies of five other gentlemen were found in the vaults beneath her house on Copper Alley. Soon after, it was said that one of those men was the son of a prominent doctor.


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[Assistant] Dorcas Kelly was more than a brothel owner now. She was a serial killer and a witch. How could anyone be surprised?


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[Assistant] Over the years since, her story has continued to spread. False details and all. And she stands as yet another example for how a woman's place in society dictated how the public perceived her. And how a community's superstitions have always been the real dark magic.


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[Assistant] As always folks, thanks so much for watching. Credits for today's episode are in the description below.


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[Assistant] Lore has been a podcast since 2015 with over 415 million downloads to date. You can learn more about this show plus the book series and the television adaptation over at lorepodcast.com. And of course, be sure to click the subscribe button and the bell icon so that you don't miss future episodes.


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[Assistant] Oh, and if you enjoyed this episode, click the thumbs up too.


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[Assistant] And you can also follow the show on Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram. Just search for Lore Podcast, all one word, and then click that follow button. And when you do, say hi. I like it when people say hi. And as always, thanks for watching.


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[Assistant] Few forces are as powerful as true love. In fairy tales, it's true love's kiss that will break the curse and rescue the princess. Sometimes the love two people have for each other is too strong for one person to handle.


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[Assistant] George and Pat Pittman had been married since Valentine's Day of 1959. After more than 50 years together, Pat went into the hospital. Her husband never left her side.


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[Assistant] Just before she passed away, George leaned in and whispered, Close your eyes. I'm coming with you. He died 21 hours later.


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[Assistant] And even in death, love can be a force that propels us through the afterlife and keeps us tethered to the realm of the living.


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[Assistant] During the time of prohibition, a widowed Florida innkeeper fell in love with a man in a dangerous line of work. He smuggled booze into the country on his boat.


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[Assistant] The innkeeper would stand on the roof of her inn holding a lantern to warn him if there was trouble waiting at the dock.


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[Assistant] Well, one night as the rain poured from the sky and thunder echoed in her ears, she raised her lantern high. Federal agents had swarmed the dock.


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[Assistant] Her beloved didn't see the lantern though, nor the agents until it was too late. He was taken into custody and she never saw him again. Today, fishermen have reported seeing the ghost of the innkeeper.


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[Assistant] Or is she hopelessly trying to fix the mistakes of the past?


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[Assistant] The stone mansion sits in the center of Mexico City and is considered by many as an ideal example of 18th century new Spanish Baroque architecture. Its facade, made from a red porous volcanic rock called Tezontal, was built in 1781. However, the surrounding street is where the house's story truly begins.


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[Assistant] Over one century earlier, in 1641, a different home occupied the spot where the House of the Counts would eventually stand. It was owned by a Spanish merchant named Juan Manuel de Solarenzo.


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[Assistant] Juan Manuel loved his wife, a beautiful woman named Marie de La Guana, but he didn't trust her. He suspected her of being unfaithful, despite his friends telling them that he had nothing to worry about. They defended her honor, but Juan Manuel didn't believe them. He was convinced that she was doing things behind his back.


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[Assistant] And perhaps some of that insecurity came from the ocean-sized age gap between them. He was over 50, while Mariana was only 19.


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[Assistant] What happened next is up for debate, depending on who tells the story. But one thing is clear. Juan Manuel was so desperate for the truth that he made a terrible deal to get it.


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[Assistant] Some say that he made a pact with an evil wizard, or a sorceress. Others say it could only have been the devil himself. Regardless, he signed away his soul in blood for answers. Juan Manuel was told that the man in question would walk past his house at exactly 11 o'clock that night, so he sat outside and waited.


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[Assistant] And waited. Sure enough, he spotted a man walking past his home late into the night. He asked the stranger for the time.


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[Assistant] The man replied that it was 11 o'clock on the dot. Juan Manuel then said, Happy is the man who knows the hour of his death, just before stabbing him. As the stranger slipped away, his life seeping out onto the cobblestones beneath him, a burst of diabolical laughter rang out nearby.


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[Assistant] The entity that had inked the deal with Juan Manuel stepped out of the shadows and told him a sinister truth. The man that he had just killed was not the man who had been sleeping with his wife.


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[Assistant] His wife's true lover would reveal himself the following night at the same time. And so, Juan Manuel waited yet again for another man to walk by his home at 11pm. And again. And again.


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[Assistant] And every time he stabbed the person to death before learning that that stranger had not in fact been the offending party.


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[Assistant] Soon his sins began to weigh heavily on his conscience. He fled to the convent of San Francisco, several blocks away, where he confessed to a priest about all that he had done, all the men he had killed.


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[Assistant] The priest instructed Juan Manuel to repent by traveling to the city's gallows and praying the rosary for three nights in a row. Juan Manuel did as he was told and rushed over. And as he recited the rosary that first night, he heard a ghostly voice chanting, and our father and a Hail Mary for the soul of Don Juan Manuel.


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[Assistant] He came back the second night and watched as a funeral procession went by. Pointing at the coffin, he asked who was inside. In a sort of Dickensian twist, the mourners spoke the name of Juan Manuel.


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[Assistant] The visions had terrified him, almost enough for him to give up entirely, but he proceeded on, vowing to complete the priest's instructions. So he returned on the third and final night to pray the rosary and hopefully be rid of the horrible curse that he had brought upon himself.


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[Assistant] The following morning, Juan Manuel's body was found swinging from the gallows. Rumors started to swirl around the true cause of his death. Had the souls of the men that he had murdered slipped the noose around his neck? Or had he been dragged there by a flock of winged angels, forcing him to atone for his crimes?


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[Assistant] In the end, the reason didn't matter. But if you want to find out, you can ask him yourself. It said that he can be seen to this day in front of the House of Accounts, asking Pastor Byers for the time. Just be careful after dark. If you answer with the time of 11 p.m., he will respond, Happy is the man who knows the hour of his death before vanishing into the night.


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[Assistant] About five hours north of the House of the Counts is the city of Guanajuato, known for its narrowing, twisting streets and alleyways. One of these alleyways is named the Alley of the Kiss.


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[Assistant] Photographers flocked to this space for its unique aesthetic, with homes painted in bright reds and oranges and adorned with decorative latticework. It measures just over two feet wide and is so narrow at the balconies on either side that they nearly touch overhead.


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[Assistant] And it is this architectural quirk that sets the stage for some of the city's most famous and tragic stories.


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[Assistant] Carmen's father had originally come from Spain. The family was quite wealthy and lived along the alley of the Kiss, thanks to her father's important job at the nearby Valenciana silver mine. Though it had been told for generations, the actual time period of the story remains unknown.


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[Assistant] The mine was briefly active in the mid-1500s and silver wasn't discovered there until 1750. Mining resumed in earnest in 1774 and the Valenciana mine has been in operation ever since.


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[Assistant] From the late 1700s to the early 1800s, around 30% of the world's silver came out of a Valenciana mine. Much of it had been extracted by enslaved indigenous people, the kind of people that Carmen's father might have watched over.


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[Assistant] But he loved her very much. She was his only daughter, and she didn't want for anything. However, he also had plans for her future, plans that she was expected to follow no matter what.


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[Assistant] You see, he wanted her to marry a rich man, to be taken care of. But Carmen, well, she wanted true love. And she found that love in Luis.


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[Assistant] The stories vary on how they met. Some say that Louise saw Carmen out of her balcony one night, gazing up at the moon, while others claim that they first spied each other in church. But no matter how it's told, the tale always ends the same way, with the two star-crossed companions falling deeply in love with one another and in secret.


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[Assistant] You see, Carmen knew that her family would never approve of Luis. He was a poor miner, not the rich suitor that her father had wanted for her. He could never provide her with the life that her father felt she deserved. And so the two would meet at the nearby Catholic church where they could talk far from the prying eyes and prying ears of her family.


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[Assistant] But as with most secrets, theirs eventually was thrust into the light. The two had been spotted within the church together, Carmen drinking holy water from Louise's hands.


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[Assistant] When her father found out about what his daughter had been up to, he locked her away in their house on the alley of the Kiss. He told her that she would soon be married to a rich old Spaniard of his choosing. Her time with Luis was over.


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[Assistant] Now Carmen only had her lady-in-waiting, Donya Brighida, who felt for the poor girl and her broken heart. Donya sent Luis a message, explaining what had happened. And Luis, determined to be reunited with his one true love, came up with a way to be together.


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[Assistant] But Carmen's father knew. He had overheard hushed voices coming from his daughter's room one night, and opened her door only to find them together. Dona Ebrejeda tried to get to her first to protect her, but Carmen's father was too fast. He entered her bedroom with red in his eyes and murder in his heart.


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[Assistant] Some say that he plunged a dagger through Carmen's heart, while others say that he bludgeoned her to death with a piece of wood. It happened so fast that Luis was still holding her hand from across the alley as she died.


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[Assistant] Louise's fate also varies with each retelling of the story. In some versions, he fell to the street below while trying to protect Carmen. Other variations claim that he escaped from her father, but he couldn't imagine a life without her. Distraught and despondent, he jumped to his death from the mineshaft in the Valenciana silver mines where he worked.


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[Assistant] However, most agree that it was Carmen's father who took Louise's life that night when he shoved him off the balcony. And though their lives ended that night,


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[Assistant] Their story did not. Despite her father's best efforts, Luis and Carmen remain together in death. It's believed that any couple who kisses on the third step below the balcony in their alley will get seven years of happiness in return. And any couple who refuses will incur seven years of bad luck.


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[Assistant] Today, the Alley of the Kiss is one of the most popular destinations in Guanajuato. And the balcony, the setting for this tragic Shakespearean tale, has become something of a character in and of itself.


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[Assistant] Couples who visit there like to leave behind padlocks or love locks with their initials emblazoned across them. Tokens of their affection to commemorate the unbroken love between two young people from very different worlds.


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[Assistant] The northern Mexico city of Chihuahua is home to nearly one million people. It's known for its historic colonial architecture, as well as being Pancho Villa's base of operations during the Mexican Revolution.


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[Assistant] Near the center of the city, just a quick walk down the street from the majestic 18th century Metropolitan Cathedral, sits an unassuming bridal shop named La Popular. But La Popular doesn't only sell wedding dresses, women and girls also come to purchase dresses for other major life events as well, such as their quinceañeras.


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[Assistant] And when they enter the shop, one of the first things they see is a mannequin standing in the window.


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[Assistant] She first appeared there on March 25th of 1930, wearing a beautiful gown from an upcoming collection.


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[Assistant] However, there was something about the mannequin that set people on edge. Rumors and chatter started floating around town. People felt that it was far too realistic and detailed, down to the cracks in the skin around the nails and the visible veins on its legs.


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[Assistant] Its eyes were also cause for concern. They were dark and wide, almost too human. Shoppers said that they felt like they were being watched. Over the years, that sensation has grown and evolved.


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[Assistant] Observers have alleged that they've seen the mannequin blinking at them, as well as smiling, breathing, and even sweating under the hot summer sun. And on religious holidays, she's been known to shed a tear or two.


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[Assistant] Now, some visitors have captured these phenomena on video, too.


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[Assistant] And of course, whenever one group claims to have witnessed a miracle, there are others ready to bring them back down to Earth. Skeptics have chalked up the mannequin's appearance to its origins as an expensive Parisian creation brought into Mexico City, one that was made with real hair and eyelashes.


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[Assistant] But one theory prevails above them all, and it's not for the faint of heart. It dates back to the early days of the shop, when its owner, Pascuala Esparza, was getting ready for her daughter, Chonita's wedding.


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[Assistant] It was the day of the event and Shanita was dressed in a beautiful white gown, presumably made for her by her mother.


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[Assistant] Sadly, Chanitha's day of joy and happiness was cut short when she died suddenly before her nuptials. The most popular version of the story claims that she was bitten by a black widow spider or a poisonous scorpion. The creature might have even been lurking inside her bridal gown as she was placing it on her body.


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[Assistant] Another telling suggests that Chonita was murdered by her fiance, or by a jealous ex-lover who refused to let her marry someone else.


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[Assistant] And in one incarnation of the legend, Chonita was betrothed to a taxi driver. In that version, either her mother didn't approve of the match and forbade Chonita from marrying him, or the groom's mother was so unaccepting of their relationship that she killed her own son.


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[Assistant] In any case, the wedding was called off and Chonita, devastated by the loss of her love, threw herself off a cliff. And it's this particular retelling that has led to another rumor about the mannequin, that when a certain taxi passes the shop, she disappears from the window.


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[Assistant] Now those who had seen Chonita, either in pictures or in person, said the mannequin looked just like her. And those discussions of resemblance turned into macabre whispers about the figure's true origins. They believed that the hyper-realistic display in the shop window was none other than Chonita herself.


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[Assistant] The story of the mother unable to live without her daughter swirled around the city. And the more people spread it around, the more it took on a life of its own.


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[Assistant] The mannequin was also given a nickname, La Pasqualita, or Little Pasquela. Locals believe that La Pasqualita came to life at night and turned the lights inside the bridal shop on and off.


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[Assistant] Some claim that she didn't do this on her own, but she was being controlled by a French magician who had fallen in love with her after seeing her in the window.


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[Assistant] He is said to appear at night to bring her to life so that she can dance with him in the street.


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[Assistant] And there's also this idea that La Pasqualita held the spirit of a saint and could grant miracles. Throughout the last nine decades, visitors have brought offerings to her, such as flowers and candles, in hopes of a fix to the problems in their lives.


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[Assistant] This may be connected to the Catholic belief in incorruptibles, saints whose bodies miraculously never decay, such as St. Catherine Laboure. She died in 1876 and resides on display in a glass coffin in a Paris chapel.


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[Assistant] Many who come to La Populair buy the dress that La Pasqualita wears, believing it will bring them good luck and happiness to their marriage.


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[Assistant] Pascuala Esparza passed away in 1967, but subsequent owners refused to remove the beloved mannequin from the window. She is as much a part of the store as the walls and windows around her.


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[Assistant] So what's keeping La Pasqualita looking so young and vibrant after all this time? Especially since the summer temperatures in Chihuahua can climb into the 90s. Even famous preserved corpses such as Lenin and Mao have degraded over time despite being watched over in carefully controlled environments for decades.


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[Assistant] Is she really the well-preserved daughter of the store's original owner, or just a detailed dummy?


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[Assistant] Well, don't expect to get a close enough look at her to find out. Customers are not permitted to approach her and when it's time to change her dress, it's done behind a privacy curtain.


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[Assistant] It's easy to believe. From her expressive eyes to the creases in her hands, La Pasqualita seems like she could walk herself down the aisle at any moment. And yet her fate is to simply stand behind glass.


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[Assistant] Watching as bride after bride lives the happily ever after life that she never could.


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[Assistant] Love is a powerful force. To many, it functions like magic, beyond the understanding of us mere mortals. No wonder so many ancient mythologies contain stories of gods who delivered that sought-after prize through supernatural methods.


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[Assistant] True love, the sort we read about in fairy tales, is elusive, precious, and dangerous. It can't be forced or manufactured, and we have as much hope of controlling it as we do the wind blowing through the trees. Within the world of romance, anything seems possible.


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[Assistant] But not all love is the romantic kind. One of the strongest bonds imaginable is the one between a mother and her children. And one of Mexico's most famous ghost stories is all about how that bond was broken. How that love went horribly wrong.


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[Assistant] The legend of La Llorona, the weeping woman who drowned her children for the love of a man and haunts the riverbank searching for them, is well known throughout the country.


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[Assistant] La Llorona is said to appear at night wearing a white dress, weeping for the babies she lost. And the stories told about her are often used to keep children from straying from their home at nights. Kids are warned that if they play near the river, La Llorona will snatch them to replace her own.


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[Assistant] Folklore always hides a lot of truths within fiction. And after our journey today, it's safe to say that one of those truths is that love can last a lifetime. Sadly, this episode won't. But before we wrap things up, I have one final story of heartbreak to share with you. Stick around through this brief sponsor break to hear all about it.


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[Assistant] In the early 1900s, Mexicans immigrated to the United States to work in factories. They planned to start new lives for themselves and their families, and many settled in northwest Indiana in the city of Gary. They took with them their clothes, food, precious family heirlooms,


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[Assistant] And the traditions they collected over generations, including stories of myths and ghosts.


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[Assistant] These tales eventually took hold in Indiana and merged with other local legends, and one specific area became home to a familiar figure in Mexican lore, La Llorona.


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[Assistant] Near the Little Calumet River, in a once thriving Mexican neighborhood, there was a Mexican factory worker who had fallen in love with her white boss. She became pregnant with his child, but he refused to acknowledge their relationship. And as with all legends passed down from mother to daughter, father to son, some details were changed or expanded upon.


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[Assistant] Some versions hold that the woman had multiple children from her late husband.


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[Assistant] Borrowed the widow story from before, but instead of killing her children herself, they were lost in a car accident in the 1930s.


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[Assistant] It said that she died of heartbreak, having been driven insane by her loss, and continues to haunt the river, crying for her dead children.


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[Assistant] But every retelling of this particular story of La Llorona ends with a woman in a white dress, blood on her hands, haunting Klein Avenue in Cary, Indiana.


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[Assistant] The ghostly Spectre has been described as short and thin with dark skin, sometimes with long pointed fingernails. She appears only at night and disappears when approached.


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[Assistant] And she screams too. Witnesses have reported hearing howling whales coming from the woman in white, gesturing wildly as she grieves over the loss of her children.


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[Assistant] All of the stories heard today share one thing in common. They are lasting evidence of how those who came before us dealt with immense loss. From murdered lovers to children taken far too soon, the stories whispered in darkened rooms aren't just meant to scare us. They're told to remind us of what we have, and that it can be taken from us in the blink of an eye.


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[Assistant] As always folks, thank you so much for watching. Credits for today's episode are in the description below.


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[Assistant] Lore has been a podcast since 2015 with over 415 million downloads to date. You can learn more about this show plus the book series and television adaptation over at lorepodcast.com.


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[Assistant] And of course, be sure to click the subscribe button and the bell icon so that you never miss a future episode. Oh, and if you enjoyed this one, click that thumbs up too. And you can also follow the show on Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram. Just search for Lore Podcast, all one word, and then click that follow button. And when you do, say hi. I like it when people say hi. And as always, thanks for watching.


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[Assistant] One thing is certain, there is no shortage of unexpected discoveries out there. Sometimes all we need to do to find them is dive a bit deeper.


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[Assistant] Back in 2021, archaeologists from the University of Texas at Arlington announced that they had found something startling beneath the waves of Lake Huron, which, if you know your geography as one of the Great Lakes,


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[Assistant] Situated above and between Lakes Michigan and Erie.


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[Assistant] Now, what they found wasn't necessarily groundbreaking in and of itself.


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[Assistant] They were just flakes of a type of stone known as obsidian. That volcanic rock that looks like a chunk of black glass. Obsidian was highly valued by earlier cultures because they could create sharp, useful blades by flaking it into thin pieces. And again, it's not odd to find them in a dig site.


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[Assistant] What was odd, though, was that these obsidian flakes, dating back roughly 9,000 years, came from a source that wasn't very local to the people who'd been using them. It turns out this obsidian was from the Oregon area on the west coast of North America, a distance of more than 2,000 miles away.


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[Assistant] Think about it. For a small and easy to overlook as these rocks might seem to us today, they hint at a much larger and more significant story, one that would have been missed entirely if the researchers hadn't decided to look underwater.


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[Assistant] When I think of Illinois, my mind doesn't necessarily go straight to images of urban places like Chicago and its sprawling suburbs. I grew up farther south, in the middle of corn country, and I have a slightly different impression of the state.


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[Assistant] I see roads that run for miles as straight as a ruler, landscapes without hills, and summers hot enough to brew tea on the back sidewalk.


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[Assistant] But we can always learn something new, because way down south, toward the very tip of Illinois, is a small body of water with a big legend. They call it Stump Pond. It's located just to the west of the sleepy town of DuCoin, and it's situated in a rare patch of trees that make up the Pyramid State Recreation Area.


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[Assistant] Now, this pond, shaped today a bit like a very long letter J, might not be the biggest around, but it started to gain a reputation back in 1879 when a local man climbed into his boat one night and rode out to do a little fishing.


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[Assistant] I imagine it was pretty peaceful out there, no buzz of airplanes in the sky above, or trucks rumbling by on the road, being the 1870s and all.


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[Assistant] But according to his story, that piece was soon shattered.


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[Assistant] The man, known only by the single name Paquette, described how something moved through the water with such speed and force that it rocked his boat.


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[Assistant] He looked around, but he couldn't see what might have caused it. And that bothered him. Between the darkness and the impenetrable water around him, he was understandably scared, and so he quickly rode back to shore. He never fished there again at night.


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[Assistant] A year later, in July of 1880, two miners believed that they spotted the creature responsible. They were standing on the shore of the pond one day when they saw something a few hundred feet out. It was, according to their description, as thick as a telegraph pole and maybe 12 feet long.


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[Assistant] To them, it almost looked like a giant snake. And when they noticed that it was heading in their direction, they did what any reasonable human being would do. They ran.


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[Assistant] In the early 1960s, a local man named Alan Dunmire claimed to have a frightening encounter with whatever lived in Stump Pond, one that was reminiscent of that original 1879 experience. Dunmire had been in his boat when something large rushed through the water.


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[Assistant] This time though, whatever the creature was, it collided with the bottom of his boat, nearly flipping it upside down.


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[Assistant] Of course, after a century and a half of sightings and questions, people are naturally curious about what the mysterious creature might be.


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[Assistant] Those stories of enormous serpents have blended with others, claiming the monster is more like an alligator, but thanks to the dark waters of the pond and its remote location, no one has ever been able to get a good look at it. They tried, though.


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[Assistant] Back in 1968, the pond was partially drained. I can't find an official reason why the process was started, but it seems that they not only lowered the water level, but they also used electric stunning equipment to clear out the fish. And in the process, a 30 pound catfish was recovered.


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[Assistant] Of course a catfish, even a big specimen like that one, doesn't even closely resemble the few descriptions that have been documented over the years. And it certainly doesn't account for whatever had the strength to almost knock a boat upside down.


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[Assistant] Honestly, you would think that fishermen would know enough about the wildlife beneath the surface of the pond to not get spooked by it. But I do think one other element deserves to be mentioned, and it's probably the best explanation of what's really been going on, because it reflects the true power of folklore.


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[Assistant] You see, just about 20 miles to the southwest is Murfreesboro, where stories of the big muddy monster have been whispered for a very long time. And it's easy to believe that word about those sightings spread over the years, like dandelion seeds on the wind, implanting in the minds of those who heard about it.


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[Assistant] Whatever the truth is at the center of the legend, Stump Pond has earned its place on the list of mysterious water monsters through the sheer power of story.


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[Assistant] Seeing is believing. At least that's what we were all taught growing up, right? If you can see something with your own eyes, it must be real. But of course, there are always exceptions to the rule. Wind, for example, is a real thing, but we can't see it, and sometimes the stuff that we do see challenges just how far we're willing to go.


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[Assistant] At first, stories were all there were. The Tinglet people of Alaska had legends about a fish god that lived in the massive body of water we now call Iliumna Lake.


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[Assistant] And it's easy to understand why. This lake is huge. The eighth largest in the United States, in fact. All the better to hide mysteries.


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[Assistant] The tinglet refer to this water creature as Gonak Adet, and claim that it has the head and tail of a wolf, but the body of a killer whale. The neighboring Aleut people have stories of their own, referring to the beast as the Jigiknak, and telling tales of how it attacks canoes on the water of the lake.


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[Assistant] But it's a string of modern sightings that have really supercharged the folklore of this lake.


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[Assistant] Back in 1942, for example, a pilot named Babe Allsworth was flying his ferry plane high above Iliamna Lake with the passenger named Bill Hammersley on board when both men spotted something unusual in the water down below.


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[Assistant] From their altitude, the shapes almost looked like boats, which struck them both as odd. So Allsworth flew lower so they could get a better look at it. According to them, what they spotted turned out to be several dozen enormous


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[Assistant] As you might imagine, the experience haunted these men for years, never really leaving their minds. Then in 1947, five years after it happened, Hammersley published his account of the experience, hoping that maybe by taking it public, others would come forward with similar stories, perhaps proving that he hadn't imagined the whole thing. And it worked.


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[Assistant] One man who reached out to him, a survey pilot named Larry Rost, described the creatures that he had spotted in the lake back in 1945, and the details were identical. In fact, he'd gotten as close as a hundred feet above the water, and they were so unusual that he had never forgotten them.


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[Assistant] In 1963, another man in a plane, this time a biologist, claimed to spot a mysterious fish just below the surface that he estimated to be around 30 feet in length.


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[Assistant] But few experiences come close to what happened four years after that, when a man named Chuck was flying over the lake in a float plane.


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[Assistant] Now from above, he spotted a large animal in the water, and he used his radio to tell his friends on the shore about it. They all climbed into a boat and headed out in search of it, but the creature vanished before they could spot it. So Chuck landed near them, and they all boiled up a new idea. They would go fishing for it.


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[Assistant] Now according to the report, the men took a bunch of tuna hooks that measured maybe 8 or 9 inches long and tied them to steel cables and then baited them with pieces of raw meat.


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[Assistant] Then like some industrial level fishing trip, they hung all of these cables off the support struts of Chuck's floatplane. And then they waited.


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[Assistant] And for a while nothing happened. The lake was as peaceful and quiet as a painting.


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[Assistant] But then suddenly the entire plane shuttered. Something had caught at one of the hooks. And rather than get stuck, it was actually tugging at the aircraft. And soon enough, the plane was moving.


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[Assistant] Now Chuck panicked, and he dove off the pontoon and into the lake, and then swam to shore. And the plane kept moving, whatever the mysterious creature was down below, just sort of dragging it along the surface like a plaything. And this went on for a few minutes, and then finally the plane came to a rest farther out on the lake, and didn't move again.


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[Assistant] Now I should pause here and mention that there have been a lot of theories over the years as to what the creature of Iliamna Lake really is. Some have suggested that there are nothing more than beluga whales, but those have horizontal tails and pale skin, unlike the descriptions from witnesses of this monster.


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[Assistant] Others blame the sightings on sturgeon, a large fish that is native to the area. And sure, sturgeon can grow up to 20 feet long. They can live for over a century and have vertical tails and dark gray skin, but they rarely surface, which makes it hard to call them definitive.


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[Assistant] All we know for sure is that the creatures beneath the waves of the lake are powerful. Because when Chuck and his friends finally rode out to his plane to inspect the lines and the hooks that they had used, they were absolutely stunned.


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[Assistant] Three of the cables have been snapped right off the plane supports and were no longer there to be seen.


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[Assistant] And at the end of the last remaining cable, an even more frightening clue. The massive tuna hook that they had used had been straightened out completely.


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[Assistant] The legend begins deep in the past. The Kootenai people used to live on an island within Flathead Lake, up in the northwest corner of Montana, but they decided to move their settlement elsewhere.


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[Assistant] Now, it was winter when they did this, so they were able to walk across the frozen water. But in the process, two children came across an odd sight. It was an enormous antler sticking up out of the thick ice.


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[Assistant] One of them wanted to be cautious, but the other grabbed a sharp rock and began to cut the antler free.


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[Assistant] Soon though, the ice began to shake. And a moment later, the monstrous owner of that antler broke through the ice, revealing itself. And in the process, much of the ice around the people broke up, and half of the community drowned.


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[Assistant] The creature was never seen again, but the Kutanai people were cautious of the lake ever since.


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[Assistant] And it's this legend that has resonated with people who have visited the lake in the century since. Why?


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[Assistant] Because many people believe that the creature, or one of its descendants, is still there.


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[Assistant] Back in 1889, for example, a man named Captain James Kerr was piloting a steamboat across the lake when something odd was spotted in the distance. At first, it seemed to be nothing more than a large log, but as the ship drew closer, more details became visible, and everyone agreed that it was an animal of some kind.


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[Assistant] Heck, one of the 100 passengers on board who all saw it with their own eyes even grabbed his rifle and tried to shoot at it, but whatever it was, it slipped away unharmed. And knowing the details of that legend I told you about a moment ago, maybe that's a good thing, right?


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[Assistant] For the next century, more and more sightings were reported there at Flathead Lake. In fact, there were more than a hundred of them recorded by 2017.


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[Assistant] But some of the most dramatic events happened in 1993, the year that featured 13 sightings alone.


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[Assistant] On May 24th of that year, for example, two creatures that matched the 1889 account were spotted in Big Arm Bay.


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[Assistant] One was described as larger than the other and many have assumed it was a mother and her child.


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[Assistant] Two months later, in the middle of July, a pair of businessmen were visiting from Seattle when they spotted something mysterious in the water. They said it resembled an enormous eel, maybe 12 feet long, moving just below the water. One of them even managed to get out a video camera and record a short clip.


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[Assistant] But whatever can be seen on the tape is inconclusive.


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[Assistant] Two days later, there were two separate sightings that occurred about 15 miles and only 25 minutes apart, suggesting that the flathead lake monster is either very fast,


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[Assistant] Or that there's more than one of them. And then two days after that, another pair of sightings were reported.


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[Assistant] Over the years, local fishermen have reported spotting something large on their fish finder devices. One man, George Coates, claims to have witnessed the creature twice. In his 1985 encounter, he described it as long and thick, maybe twice the diameter of a telephone pole, and about 30 feet long.


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[Assistant] The monster even raised its head out of the water to look at him, before slipping back under the surface and swimming away.


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[Assistant] But few stories are as hard to explain as the one that took place in 2015. That's when a local judge, Jim Manley, was out in his boat with his wife, Julia. The couple had been enjoying the sun and the beautiful scenery when their battery unexpectedly died. One of them used a cell phone to call for assistance, and while they waited, something else came to find them.


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[Assistant] The first sign was a noise, like an animal splashing in the water just behind them. Both of them turned around to see what it was and spotted a creature that measured at least 25 feet in length.


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[Assistant] It's humps, they said, were even sticking up out of the water. And then, in a heartbeat, it was gone.


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[Assistant] Whatever it is that lives below the waves of Flathead Lake is still a mystery today. But the countless stories that have piled up over the years certainly leaves a long and curious tale.


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[Assistant] Those who don't believe the legends think that people have been spotting nothing more mysterious than giant eels. Like the conger eel that's known to live off the east coast of the United States. But how those eels made their way inland to Montana, no one knows.


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[Assistant] Others think that it's some kind of an oarfish, an eel-like fish that can grow upwards of 36 feet long. But those are deep water fish that prefer tropical climates. Flathead Lake does not fit that description at all.


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[Assistant] So we're simply left to wonder and whisper, and until irrefutable proof is hauled up out of the lake's dark waters, it might be wise to keep an eye out for anything unexplainable there. Because wherever there are shadows, there's a mystery waiting to be solved.


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[Assistant] Dark shapes in the water. Unusual objects above the waves. The feeling of something firm and powerful slipping past your leg. It's easy to believe that there's something mysterious down in the depths of the lakes that we've explored today. Exactly what? Well that's not an answer I can provide.


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[Assistant] But at least one thing is clear. Our world isn't fully explored. And for as confident as people want to be that we've documented everything, it's simply not true. Yes, we have the tools, but it's a big planet, and we could spend decades exploring just one of these lakes in search of answers.


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[Assistant] As comforting as it is for a lot of people, we need to be okay with mysteries and the stories that they breed. Some, though, are certain that they've seen the truth.


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[Assistant] On the very same day that Jim and Julia Manley had their unexplainable encounter on their boat back in 2005, a second sighting took place.


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[Assistant] This one was along the shore, where a three-year-old boy named Andrew was walking down a dock.


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[Assistant] According to the story, his mother was busy getting the boat ready for their day out on the water, and her son was having a blast, doing all the things that little boys might do around a gorgeous lake in the beautiful natural scenery. But as he tottered down the dock, he slipped, and a moment later, he vanished into the water.


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[Assistant] Andrew's mom sprang into action. Her son did not know how to swim and she knew she had to reach him fast.


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[Assistant] But as she bolted toward the spot on the dock where he'd fallen off,


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[Assistant] He suddenly reappeared, almost levitating up from the surface of the lake. After his feet were back on the dock, the little boy smiled and told his mother what had happened.


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[Assistant] I hope you enjoyed our journey today. The dark waters of the lakes that dot our landscape seem to be hiding something powerful. Those hidden things might very well be actual living breathing monsters. Or at the very least, those waves conceal stories. Ones that have the power to fill our hearts with fear.


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[Assistant] But not all stories are what they appear to be. And to help you understand what I mean, I think we have one more lake to explore. Stick around through this brief sponsor break to hear all about it.


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[Assistant] It's clear that the lakes of our world hold more than water and wildlife. Some, if the stories are to be believed, are home to something older and more dangerous. And it's from that dark well that so many stories have been drawn.


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[Assistant] A good majority of them, it seems, all fall within a region of the Northern Hemisphere known as the Boreal Forest Belt. Places with colder waters, less sunlight, and fewer people.


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[Assistant] Or perhaps they are the best conditions for folklore. But one lake deserves a visit today, because it has a different take on the old stories.


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[Assistant] According to the Silha First Nation people, Okanagan Lake, located in British Columbia just north of the American state of Washington, has always been home to a water spirit. In fact, they believe that the lake is a physical manifestation of that spirit, which they call Nahaha'iku, or the sacred spirit of the lake.


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[Assistant] Because of that, it has long been a tradition for the people there to leave offerings for the spirit.


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[Assistant] Their lives depended on the lake, and because the spirit protected the waters there, it made sense to have a mutually beneficial relationship.


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[Assistant] When European fur traders arrived in the early 1800s, though, that is not what they believed. They saw the First Nation people leaving food, and they heard the stories of the lake as a living being, and assumed there was some sort of monster below the waves, one that needed to be bought off with regular sacrifices.


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[Assistant] And that's the problem with entering a new culture and trying to frame their unique beliefs and practices through the lens of an outsider. Misconceptions creep in, stories are misunderstood, and motivations are invented.


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[Assistant] So naturally, stories began to spread. This time by those European newcomers. They told stories of a monster that lived in the water, and how it was a bloodthirsty thing, it was dangerous. Soon enough, colonists were walking along the shores of the lake with weapons in their hands, waiting for their moment of glory and a chance to kill the beast. A beast, mind you, that they themselves had invented.


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[Assistant] By the 1920s, those stories were pulling in tourists who wanted to see the beauty of the area and also see if the stories were true.


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[Assistant] And so in an effort to rebrand the tales, the monster was given a new name.


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[Assistant] Ogo Pogo, or Ogi for short, they even made trinkets and merchandise with drawings of the imaginary creature on them. You don't have to make a quick buck or two.


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[Assistant] In the early 1980s, the Local Tourism Association started offering a million-dollar reward for proof of the creature's existence. Greenpeace even stepped in and said that if the monster did exist, it was endangered and must be protected. Even TV shows like In Search of and Unsolved Mysteries gave the lake monster legend more attention.


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[Assistant] And yes, people have reported spotting the creature in the waters there over the years. All of them describe it as 40 feet long, as thick as a telephone pole, and covered in dark skin. They say it's fast and powerful, and behaves almost like a dragon under the waves.


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[Assistant] But those stories might be based on nothing more than a rogue cold wave that sinks below the warmer waters, setting up a visual disturbance. Or farther down the spectrum between frightening and cute, some believe that the sightings have been nothing more than otters, just out for a lazy swim in a neat and tidy row.