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[Assistant] The guide needle was removed and the leukotome was inserted where that was to sever the connections. The procedure was very quick and the side effects were minimal.


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[Assistant] Question mark, question mark, question mark. Typically they included like headaches. Yea. A black eye. Eye aches. Maybe a fever every now and then. But best of all, at least from Walter Freeman's perspective was it was quick, it was simple, could be performed in a doctor's office, patient could leave a short time after.


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[Assistant] Fuck dude. And honestly in 2023 with the way that work is.


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[Assistant] But the thing is, here's the thing, so that sounds like, whoa, Fiamberti, like what are you doing? But Fiamberti, he had only done it a handful of times.


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[Assistant] I don't know, I think the one thing that it's missing is me. Oh yeah, that's what everything in life is missing. I think Fiamberti didn't do it right, but I think me?


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[Assistant] With my skilled hand and my genius and my confidence, I think it could be a revolutionary process.


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[Assistant] Probably because Fiamberti's patients needed more. That's all.


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[Assistant] How do you even know that? You don't, don't ask questions. Don't worry about it. How do you know that? You know, he just knows that. Why are you asking Walter Freeman questions? He's telling you things. Why do you need to know?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, but he also believed that one of the problems with the procedure, as it had been performed, and this is where uhm,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And he took the, he took the lead. Uh, but he was, so he was like, you know what, we need something that is, you know, slender, sharp, tough, something that's not going to bend, not going to break.


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[Assistant] And he found that instrument at home in a kitchen drawer.


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[Assistant] In the form of the Uline Ice Company's ice pick.


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[Assistant] So Freeman wasted, so that again, that's as Ash said before, you probably know the transorbital lobotomy. You've probably heard it called an ice pick lobotomy. That is why it's called an ice pick lobotomy because he literally started it with an ice pick.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So he wasted no time perfecting his new technique over the course of several weeks. And on January 17th, 1946, he tested out the procedure on a real life person on 29 year old housewife, Sally Ellen Linesco.


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[Assistant] Uhm, like many of his other patients, she had a very long history of struggles with depression, anxiety. She was also dealing with a lot of manic behavior and violent behavior. She was having bouts of violence. And in these bouts of violence, she would strike her daughter. Oh no.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, so having run out of any other options, Sally's husband brought her to see Freeman, who quickly suggested this new technique, and the couple together did agree to do it.


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[Assistant] And uhm, he had told this couple that it had been done in Italy a few times, and it was very quick, easy, low risk. And remember, Fiamberti stopped doing it because of how awful the outcomes were.


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[Assistant] Now, after agreeing to the surgery, he brought Sally into a private room. She was rendered unconscious. And the way they did that was using an electroconvulsive machine to render you unconscious. I'm sorry, what? Exactly what it sounds like.


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[Assistant] Uhm, while this happened, and Ash is like speechless. I have no words at this point. While this happened, a nurse would hold towels under the patient's nose and mouth to collect any mucus or other fluids that would flow out of your orifices while this happens. Walter then peeled back Sally's eyelid, inserted the ice pick into the orbital socket, gave it a few


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[Assistant] Tap tap, gentle taps with a hammer to break through the bone plate.


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[Assistant] Wiggled the ice pick about. Oh my god. To sever the frontal lobes.


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[Assistant] On a screen, they are doing brain surgery and heart surgery on fetuses in your, I mean that is remarkable. We're a magic species at that point. But like, he didn't have a camera. He didn't even have a fucking camera. There wasn't even like... So you don't, how do you know what you're doing? You're just going in there and wiggling it about, quote unquote. Like that is not a medical procedure, you are...


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[Assistant] Oh my god. He knew all these, these results. He just wasn't sharing them. That's all. He's such a douchebag. Now as Sally was regaining consciousness, it appeared that the operation had been a failure because


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[Assistant] She could not speak immediately after the procedure and she needed assistance walking.


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[Assistant] But then in the days and weeks that followed, Sally was showing what they refer to as slow progress. She regained the ability to walk and talk, and she never


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[Assistant] Experience any of the symptoms that had led them to coming into Freeman's office.


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[Assistant] Uhm, yeaah. Her daughter Angeline said, quote, uhm, it felt like he had given me a tremendous gift to give my mother back to me.


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[Assistant] Uhm, and after monitoring Sally's progress for several weeks, Walter happily reported that his patient was now enjoying good health.


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[Assistant] And in 2008, her daughter said,


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[Assistant] That's what, that's a quote from her, it felt like he had given me a tremendous gift to give my mother back to me, that was in 2008. Wow, so okay, so it did work.


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[Assistant] He looked at this as irrefutable evidence that this is successful across the board. It's gonna help everyone. That's just a one-off, my guy.


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[Assistant] Now after conducting just a few procedures, he concluded that his technique was safe enough to operate on both sides of the brain in the same day.


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[Assistant] And decided to do so with his fourth patient.


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[Assistant] I don't know, I mean I'm gonna listen to Angeline here and say her mother was a functioning person and was cured.


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[Assistant] But like, other results that they looked at as desirable, I guess, could have been that that person just became docile. Right, that's the thing. But I'm gonna listen to Angeline here. If she says her mother was back, her mother was back.


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[Assistant] I think that's, I think the problem with the lobotomy is it's just a fucking crapshoot. It's literally like, it's, there's no way that you can


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[Assistant] Sit there and tell me you're doing it right every time. No. And as we'll see, he became a lot more unhinged as he went.


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[Assistant] I mean, your brain is such an intricate and complex organ. Right. It would be hard not to hit something of importance with that thing, but who knows? I mean, stranger things have happened, you know?


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[Assistant] But he decided now that he was going to operate on both sides of the brain in the same day, and he used his fourth patient, so he's done three that he's considered successful.


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[Assistant] That is not a case study my guy. This is not tic-tac-toe my sir. So the fourth one, his name was David Berman.


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[Assistant] Unfortunately, Walter never got to operate on the second side of the brain to test his theory because Berman began hemorrhaging.


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[Assistant] Because Freeman accidentally punctured a blood vessel in his brain. I want you to picture.


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[Assistant] Now, he was sent home after this partial lobotomy.


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[Assistant] And he ended up writing in his notes that this man recovered fairly well. What?


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[Assistant] Now, he wrote that in his notes. He recovered fairly well.


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[Assistant] For the rest of his life. He struggled for the rest of his life.


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[Assistant] Freeman and Watts just charged ahead. They just went right ahead with it.


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[Assistant] This was supposed to be something that was a last resort. Initially when the, you know, when Fiumberti made it, created it, he was touting it as, it was conceived as a last resort for the most impaired.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] This is your end of the road Hail Mary thing. And he saw it wasn't working, so he was like, this can't even be your last resort. They're doing it now, not as that, but as a quick fix for everything.


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[Assistant] They even did it for nervous indigestion. Oh my god.


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[Assistant] In suicidal thoughts, hyster- like, hysterical paralysis, they called it, like they- anything that they- anything on the spectrum of illness, especially mental illness,


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[Assistant] They would recommend a prefrontal transorbital lobotomy. But even indigestion? Yea.


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[Assistant] Wow. And some, and it's crazy because some people in the medical field at this point were starting to kind of come around to their theories because they were having some successes. So they're looking at it, some of them as like


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[Assistant] But a lot remains skeptical and they were warning that there was risks that were just inherent to this procedure that you really couldn't work around.


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[Assistant] And in December of 1947, for example, Swedish psychiatrists


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[Assistant] Psychiatrist, Dr. Gosta Rylander addressed a conference of over 700 doctors and said, although he had used the technique to some effect, he thought it was a very risky approach to any kind of illness. And he said quote, because of the personality deterioration that might occur. So he's saying, yeah, sure.


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[Assistant] You might fix some of the issues that they said this person came in with. But... But they're gonna become a docile zombie. Yeah.


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[Assistant] Potentially. A hundred percent. And like this just isn't worth it. To like destroy someone's personality.


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[Assistant] Now despite Dr. Rylender's insistence that this lobotomy should really only be relied on in extreme cases, the most extreme.


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[Assistant] Walter Freeman forged ahead and he said, you know what, I'm going to keep doing it to literally anyone that shows up in my office, regardless of age. By the end of the 1940s, Freeman and Watts were performing dozens of lobotomies each week.


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[Assistant] But interestingly by 1950 James Watts, his partner there, was becoming a little disturbed.


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[Assistant] By the frequency with which people were turning to lobotomy. And he was like, wait a second, like, I think...


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[Assistant] Very seriously. And they often clashed over what he considered to be


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[Assistant] Walter Freeman's very cavalier attitude about cutting into a person's fucking brain.


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[Assistant] No, and Watts was getting a little frustrated by that and he was like, this is a little weird, man.


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[Assistant] And Watt's frustrations dated back to 1946 when he entered their shared office one day.


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[Assistant] And found Walter standing before a patient with two ice picks sticking out of their eye sockets. Casually, he looked at Watts and said, Jim, can you come here and hold the picks while I take a photo?


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[Assistant] What? That's when Watts turned and left the room and they never shared an office again.


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[Assistant] But they continued to work together. But that was in their shared office.


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[Assistant] A brain damaging operation and they ended up parting ways in 1950.


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[Assistant] Yep, so, but it was 1946 that he walked in and saw that, like, him standing in front of a patient with two fucking ice picks sticking out of their eyes.


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[Assistant] Fuck you. And he ended up, Watts described it, but in 1950, he was like, I see it as a brand damaging operation.


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[Assistant] But this didn't slow down Walter's enthusiasm about the surgery.


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[Assistant] Yeah, his most productive period in fact was between 1949 and 1952. Cause he got bold. A span where...


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[Assistant] Thousands of transorbital lobotomies were performed across the country. In fact, during a two week period in 1952, he visited a hospital in West Virginia and he performed in two weeks 228 lobotomies.


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[Assistant] Going through it, I would think. Well, what's worse, exactly, and what's worse is he's kind of becoming like a celebrity at this point. And that's going in his head. And now he had taken to performing lobotomies for audiences. No, that's, that is just beyond fucked.


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[Assistant] And he would vent, now he's going into like shock jock territory where he would like to quote, shock his audience of doctors and nurses by performing two handed lobotomies, hammering ice picks into both eyes at once.


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[Assistant] And that's from NPR in 2005, that quote. But yea, he would literally, two ice picks, one in each eye socket. At once.


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[Assistant] Pretty dramatic decline in the public's interest and reliance on this procedure.


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[Assistant] Uhm, and aware of this, that it was declining in popularity.


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[Assistant] A lot of uhm, so among those was the growing number of men who were publicly identifying as


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[Assistant] Or being outed and or arrested for being homosexual.


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[Assistant] Uh, many of whom were committed by their own families or the courts for their quote unquote behavior.


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[Assistant] This shit makes me so fucking angry. And this is really gonna getcha right now cause this was like so angering to hear. Oh no. By some estimates, and this is uhm, this is from 2023.


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[Assistant] Now, as understandings of mental illness and emotional health started to change in the 1960s, uhm,


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[Assistant] Becoming a little more compassionate, a little more nuanced, at least slightly. Especially from the 1950s. Yeah.


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[Assistant] Uhm, Walter was growing increasingly desperate to remain relevant and


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[Assistant] And this is when Lou Dully brought her 12 year old stepson, Howard Dully, to see Walter Freeman in the fall of 1960. She described his issues as being a major source of trouble for the family.


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[Assistant] Uhm, and honestly, when you hear what they were, you're like, so he's just like a 12 year old.


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[Assistant] Uhm, she said he objects to going to bed but then sleeps well.


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[Assistant] This woman is a cunt. Those are the reasons that she wanted a transorbital lobotomy for her 12 year old stepson. So what you're telling me is that she didn't like her stepson. So she was like, he's annoying me. And Freeman was like, okay, okay, we can drill an ice pick into his brain if you want. Like, okay, Meredith Blake, Jesus Christ. And four days later.


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[Assistant] Where was his dad? Where was his mom? Yeaah, uhm. Now, looking back on it,


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[Assistant] Uh, he believes his stepmother had never wanted children and resented him for reasons he'll never understand. Yeah, it sounds that way. Uh, he said quote, in 2005 he told NPR, my stepmother hated me. I never understood why, but it was clear she'd do anything to get rid of me. Here's an idea. That woman should be in prison for the rest of her fucking life.


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[Assistant] Looking into Freeman's archives at the George Washington University Library reveals a lot about Howard's surgery.


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[Assistant] It's reckless, to say the least. It said Mrs. Dully came in for a talk about Howard, he wrote in his clinical notes. Things have gotten much worse and she can barely endure it.


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[Assistant] Now the procedure was done, and it failed at changing Howard's personality, so Lou Dully turned to more extreme measures and convinced her husband to give up his parental rights.


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[Assistant] Just to see if it would fucking ruin his personality and make him a zombie. Because she wanted to throw him away. When it didn't.


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[Assistant] She convinced his father to just abandon him.


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[Assistant] Yep, I don't even know what to say to that. And this left him, obviously,


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[Assistant] Deeply traumatized. I mean, abandonment and the lobotomy. They shoved ice picks into his eyeballs. Yeah. He told NPR, it took me years to get my life together. Oh Howard. Through it all, I've been haunted by questions. Did I do something to deserve this? No. Can I ever be normal? Yes. And most of all, why did my dad let this happen? Why did?


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[Assistant] I spit on you. Yeah, I don't even, she doesn't even deserve our spit. So luckily Walter Freeman performed his last trans-orbital lobotomy in February of 1967 on a long-term patient of his, his Helen Mortenson.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] She had just been a patient of his several times. He had been...


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[Assistant] Unluckily, this is very sad, it resulted in her death from a brain hemorrhage when Freeman nicked an artery.


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[Assistant] So when I said luckily he performed his last one, I mean like thankfully he was never allowed to do one again.


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[Assistant] Now the accident resulted in Freeman being banned from operating on anyone in the state of California.


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[Assistant] Honestly, that's like, it's kinda wild that that's the, that was the only consequence.


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[Assistant] And you really didn't have a lot of like formal surgical training. That's the other thing. Like the fact that this was the first one.


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[Assistant] But he, so he lost his ability to perform the procedure that he had invented and advocated on for decades. And he officially retired and spent the next several years traveling around the country conducting follow-up studies on his former patients until he died from cancer on May 31st, 1972.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now, over the course of his decades long career, he conducted approximately 3,500 lobotomies. Holy shit. Three quarters of those were transorbital or ice pick lobotomies. Nearly 500 of those resulted eventually in the death of the patient.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And that's according to Hugh Kay, and that's from 2023, the dark history of gay men, lobotomies, and Walter Jackson Freeman. Wow. Uhm, so.


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[Assistant] 500 people eventually died of whatever injuries they sustained from it. I think with his last one, with Helen, it was more of a


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[Assistant] immediate thing that caused him to lose the license. Right.


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[Assistant] Well, some of Freeman's patients, likely those that were.


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[Assistant] Operated on a, the more surgically inclined James Watts, I would think.


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[Assistant] Did feel their lives were improved by the procedure.


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[Assistant] The reality was that the results buried so widely. I mean, it hit all spectra. It was literally like playing roulette. It was just...


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[Assistant] See what happens. Like, there was no rhyme or reason to it.


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[Assistant] So that's not a good procedure. That's not a good procedure when you're literally just rolling a dice and it can land anyway.


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[Assistant] Who would sign up for that knowing those odds? Exactly, and he was also reckless. He was reckless with it.


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[Assistant] And he was egotistical and he just wanted it done quick. That's the thing. He never put forth the


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Real effort that should have gone into creating a procedure like this. Cause maybe had he actually put effort in, he could have figured something out.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] In there in the beginning, wanted to make a good difference, like wanted to take suffering from people, wanted to cure mental illness, wanted to take this away.


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[Assistant] It just got lost in ego. I was gonna say in himself.


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[Assistant] Uhm, yeaah, and just the impatience. The need for celebrity. Fame, yeaah, exactly. And just, there was a lot that really just, it tampered down any of that good that was in there to begin with. I do believe there was some good in the beginning that...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Good intentions that just were completely washed away throughout this and it's really sad to see that somebody could turn into that. This is one of the most tragic cases.


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[Assistant] Yeah. Ever. And luckily the transorbital lobotomy definitely faded out over the course of the 60s and the 70s and was considered pretty obsolete by the 1980s. Uhm, but still neurosurgeon and author Dr. Henry Marsh cautions against judging men like Walter Freeman too harshly. Uhm, he says quote,


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[Assistant] Their theory was based on this terribly crude, simplistic view of the brain. That the brain was a simple mechanism and you could just sort of stick things into it, he wrote.


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[Assistant] And reflecting on the history of the now unthinkable practice of lobotomy, Marsh said,


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[Assistant] This business of dividing doctors into heroes and villains is wrong.


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[Assistant] The generation of surgeons who trained me had, I wouldn't say god-like powers.


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[Assistant] But they had enormous authority. Nobody questioned them or queried them.


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[Assistant] And I can think of some of the people who trained me who were essentially decent people who had been corrupted by this power and became a little bit monstrous as a result. That's kind of what we were just saying about Walter Freeman though.


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[Assistant] That's the thing, but it's like they don't begin that way. Right. They don't all begin that way, you know what I mean? Like this is a very...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] This isn't a black and white thing, like he did not begin as an evil villain who was out to fuck people over and kill people and he wasn't, he didn't want to kill people. That's the thing, like he was, his ego took over.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And his, you know, need for fame and his need to do things quickly and to have his name on this procedure and be revolutionary and all this and it took over.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Any kind of forethought into, well maybe we do need to take some time to perfect this, we do need to do some more research, we do need to figure out


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] How we can make sure that we're not just wiggling about an ice pick and instead


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[Assistant] Figuring out how to target specific things that we do lots of research on, that we find out when we target this thing, this is what happens. Instead of just being like, yeah, we'll just sever a few things and see what happens. The other part that I think is interesting that Marsh pointed out was how


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Back then there was such like a simplistic view of the brain. Like it wasn't looked at as it's this complex, as complex as it really is. So I think that also kind of informed a lot of these reckless things that people would do, but again, he just turned into a monster.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] There's really no getting away from the end of that. He did turn into a villain. And he waited until he was retired to go check up on all his former patients. It's like, I don't know, maybe you should have done that while you were doing the procedures. A hundred percent. That's just humanity. Like it's like, and to make sure.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But that's how they were all able to do it, like uhm, Moniz there, who made the original, you know, the original lobotomy, that we know now as the lobotomy.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The Leukotome, he didn't make the device but he was the one who would literally like not check up on the patients and just mark them off as a success because they didn't die in his office. That's cheating. And they looked a little docile when they left. It's like he would not...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And things that have been implemented now luckily to kind of safeguard some of this


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[Assistant] This is just reckless. It's just reckless behavior. It's reckless, monstrous behavior. Completely. And for, I mean, I'm glad that James Watts kind of realized. Like I gotta get the fuck out of here. Like I said earlier, I'm pretty sure the


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And now they make you hit like every department so you have a vast understanding of everything. Right.


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[Assistant] At that point, you don't give a shit. You're like, sure, everyone come in. You're like, just take this thing out of me. Wow. That is Dr. Walter Freeman and the transorbital lobotomy slash ice pick lobotomy.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And it's a traumatic thing to go through, no matter what.


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[Assistant] I'm an adult and I leave lights on sometimes. I don't even believe in hell, but that woman's in hell. She's somewhere. I'll tell you that much. Oof.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Well, we were getting them ready for dance, decided to give me a makeover. Yeah. While you're waiting, you know. Might as well. And she grabbed a Halloween palette.


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[Assistant] A Halloween palette that I have and I actually kept that palette, haven't used it, cause I wanted to wait for Halloween and I figured they could use that palette cause I'm sure they're gonna want to be something fun and fancy and you know, all that fun stuff. But boy did they use it.


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[Assistant] Pumpkin orange glitter. And glitter glitter in this palette. Like drag queen glitter. Like so glitter.


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[Assistant] It's really, it's really embedded in there, but I feel, uh, spooky-ooky. You look great. You know what? She gave me...


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[Assistant] I love that she was like, I wasn't worried, like, they're boss bitches, I'm not worried about them at all. Yea, she's like, they got this.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The aesthetic is still, it's constantly in style, I feel like, in some ways.


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[Assistant] We're hearing about like, like I'm a, like I would never hitchhike just because I'm scared of everybody. But now it's so different. But like you also back then were not hearing about the millions of


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[Assistant] Yeah, and a big issue. This isn't like a bunch of people just being like, oh, this is annoying. It's like the secretary of state is trying to see them. That's a lot. That's pretty big.


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[Assistant] No, of course not. Nothing in your brain wants to believe. Exactly. So it's going to tell you, no way. There's no way.


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[Assistant] You're like going to answer the door being like, oh my god, hey girl, you know, like so happy to see you, like la la la, like mom stuff. And this is what you have to.


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[Assistant] Because he gave no details. None. That would be something only the killer would know. Exactly.


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[Assistant] What's really sad about this whole thing is that Vicky and Nancy are just at


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[Assistant] We don't even know anything about what happened to them that night.


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[Assistant] Instead of really focusing on that part of it, they're really just focusing on clearing their books.


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[Assistant] Three vibes, because in that case it's the same thing. They grab the three kids.


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[Assistant] I mean, I can tell you right now, I have no fucking clue who is innocent here and who isn't. I have no idea. I have no opinion on it. Cause I, it's all lost.


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[Assistant] You know, there's just a lot here. I feel really bad for the family members here because they did not get that moment of at least for a minute justice being served.


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[Assistant] That makes sense. Right? Yeah. It's very convoluted, but you made it easier to understand. Okay.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, which I think is a fair thing to say. Who the hell would remember what they were doing on June 25th, 1980? But you can definitely remember if you killed someone.


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[Assistant] I understand why the family members were like, this is strange.


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[Assistant] And freaking me out. Definitely. But it sounds like if you look at it just purely from what it is, it's like, okay, it doesn't look like he, if he's innocent, then it looks like he just didn't have any malicious intent and literally was just trying to.


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[Assistant] That's just a statement that he was, and...


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[Assistant] Yeah. And I mean, I'm just, the fact that Nancy's mother, Jean, wrote a letter for the defense stating she believed he's innocent.


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[Assistant] Just walking around, if you don't truly believe in your heart that he didn't do it. So this is very interesting.


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[Assistant] This case is, I can't believe that just, they got lost in it.


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[Assistant] Book, edition of The Butcher and the Wren, go get it! Everywhere! I love you guys.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Very upsetting. Deeply upsetting. Don't like it. Yeah, I'm gonna put the same trigger warning at the top of this episode that I did in the last episode, both of the cases that we're gonna talk about today that we talked about in part one.


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[Assistant] By all means, just wait for the next episode. I will not hold it against you. There you go. Yeah. So.


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[Assistant] So, in part one, we went over the main people involved in the case, Jennifer and Bart Corbin, and their very, very tumultuous marriage, but


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[Assistant] There's a lot more, so definitely make sure that you go listen to part one before you start this episode.


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[Assistant] Now when we left off, investigators were, uh, not getting the best impression from Bart regarding what they were starting to suspect was the murder of his wife.


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[Assistant] And since he had layered up and refused to speak with them, all they could really do at that point was dig into his past.


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[Assistant] Now, they knew from talking to Jennifer's friends and family that there was a history of violence, but they were stunned when they kept digging and found out


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[Assistant] Jennifer wasn't the first person close to Bart Corbin.


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[Assistant] She was a 27 year old dental student at the Medical College of Georgia when she met


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[Assistant] Fellow student Bart Corbin in early 1989. They'd gone to dental school together. And this was like right before he met Jennifer.


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[Assistant] Yeaah. Like a kismet, you know, probably felt like that way.


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[Assistant] So they fell in love pretty quickly. Another one of their classmates said she was crazy about him for a while. And I think he really liked her a lot as well. Which that statement tells you something.


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[Assistant] So once they started dating, Dolly was really excited to introduce her friends to Bart. She was like...


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[Assistant] You know, I love this guy, he's a great catch and she figured that they would all really like him just as much as she did.


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[Assistant] That was not the case when she did introduce her friends to Bart.


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[Assistant] Her friend Dennis remembered hanging out with Dolly and Bart together a lot and said, And that just didn't leave them with a good feeling.


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[Assistant] And most of Dolly's friends weren't exactly sure what they didn't like about Bart, they just got the feeling like something was off with him. Yeah, trust your gut.


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[Assistant] And so he makes sure he locks that down to get the control. Exactly.


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[Assistant] So he caught Dolly entirely off guard with this proposal, and he just kept insisting that they get married as soon as he was done with dental school. Which like, hi, she was also in dental school, so what about her? Like, okay, I love it. Like, we just won't consider her in this equation at all. No, of course not.


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[Assistant] Now Dolly, again, like I said, she was really caught off guard by this and she wasn't ready to commit to somebody like that.


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[Assistant] And now she was a little bit concerned that she wasn't as invested in this relationship as Bart was. Cause now she's like, what the fuck? Yeah.


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[Assistant] So she declined the proposal, but she didn't want to end things altogether, like she still liked Bart, she just...


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[Assistant] And you know, maybe he was beginning to love him, but not enough to marry him. Yeah, she wanted to wait. Yeah. So they kept dating for a few more months, because again, they had only been together months.


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[Assistant] So after a while though, there was just too much weirdness, too much tension between them. It's really hard to get past that.


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[Assistant] He's a fart. I looked at his face and I was like, fuck you, fart. Yeah, he's an asshole. He's like, it even rhymes with his name. Yeah, oh my God, I didn't even mean to do that. So fuck you, fart. Yeah, fart, fart. So.


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[Assistant] After about a year of dealing with this, Dolly was just like, you know what, I can't do this, like clearly we are not meant to be together. Thumbs up. She couldn't take the possessiveness anymore or the tension.


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[Assistant] Everything was just getting super toxic and she needed out. Yeaah. So she did the right thing and she ended things with him. Just for her. She was ready to get out of there.


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[Assistant] So Bart's friend Eric Rader said he was really taking it hard. And Eric also said in the weeks after the breakup, Bart was just consumed with what he referred to as the Dolly situation.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Ooh, I don't like that. Like situ- I never want to be referred to as a situation. Ooh, no. And he wouldn't talk about anything else. He was fixated on this dolly situation. That would scare me.


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[Assistant] And Eric felt like what seemed to upset Fart Bart the most was that quote, she did not appear to be taking the breakup as badly as he was. And that pissed him off.


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[Assistant] A lot of terrible things happened like back to back in Dolly's life not too long after she ended things with Bart. It was like a series of strange and very unfortunate events. First, somebody tore the sliding door to her apartment off of its track and left her screen door open. Then her car was vandalized.


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[Assistant] But after a while, she realized luck had nothing to do with it. She was being targeted. Of course. And when she thought about who in the world would ever want to target her, only one name came to mind. Yep. Bart Corbin.


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[Assistant] And now she was convinced that he was retaliating as a result of the breakup.


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[Assistant] So she was smart with how she started kinda talking to him at this point.


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[Assistant] Anytime they would talk, she tried to record the conversation to get a confession out of him about what he'd been doing. But, ever aware of his reputation and his career goals,


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[Assistant] Bart was suspicious that Dolly was doing exactly what she was.


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[Assistant] So he actually backed off and left her alone for a little bit. So it worked out for a little bit.


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[Assistant] Still, Dolly had already been scared of Bart from their relationship.


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[Assistant] And now that she suspected he was the one terrorizing her after their breakup.


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[Assistant] So just hoping that, you know, eventually they would both move on, he would graduate and they would just do their best to forget each other. She was like, I'm just gonna stay focused on staying on his good side until I can get rid of him.


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[Assistant] Because of that, she declined to press charges or tell the police that she suspected him, because she was afraid he would retaliate further. Oh, that's awful. And really, at that time, there wouldn't be a lot that they could do. Yeaah. Like that, unfortunately, back then, there wasn't a lot of laws about this.


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[Assistant] So for a time, things seemed calm, but they were about to escalate to a point that nobody could have imagined.


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[Assistant] Dolly's roommate Angela came home on the night of June 6, 1990 and found Dolly dead.


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[Assistant] She was sitting cross legged on the couch and her face was covered in blood and there was a 38 caliber revolver sitting in her lap.


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[Assistant] So Angela ran to the apartment of their neighbour who happened to be a doctor, Dr. Steinhaus.


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[Assistant] The doors and windows to the apartment were all locked, there was no sign of a struggle whatsoever, and Dolly's body was sitting in a relaxed position on the couch with a bullet hole in the right side of her head just above the temple. But it wasn't that simple.


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[Assistant] Something about the position of Dolly's body struck Dr. Steinhaus at least.


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[Assistant] In his experience, people who do commit suicide don't usually sit cross-legged in such a relaxed manner. Yeaah. It just seemed off to him. So he gave his opinion about this to investigators.


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[Assistant] But they initially treated the death as a suicide, which meant the scene was never processed as a crime scene, really.


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[Assistant] But, the medical examiner easily signed off on the death as a suicide.


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[Assistant] Now later that day though, after they spoke with Angela, the roommate there,


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[Assistant] They wondered if that was really the case, the police. So Angela filled them in on everything that Dolly had gone through in the months earlier.


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[Assistant] And explained that Dolly had suspected her ex-boyfriend Bart Corbin


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[Assistant] But was too afraid to take things to the police. She told them all about the everything that had gone on.


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[Assistant] Now as they started talking to more of Dolly's friends and started chatting with her family too,


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[Assistant] Police were worried that Bart actually did have something to do with Dolly's death. They had a bad feeling about him.


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[Assistant] And they were also starting to think back to the scene and realize that certain things about the scene were off.


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[Assistant] Just like Jennifer, there was no signs of gunpowder on Dolly's hands, which should have been there if she really shot herself. Absolutely. And they found it bizarre that she had started preparing food but never finished making meal that it seemed she was making for herself.


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[Assistant] Like it wasn't even like the, like the bowl or the plate was prepared yet, she was in prepping stages. Almost like with Teresita Basa. Yeah, like why did no one take this into account the first time? I don't know. It's a strange crime scene situation. It is.


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[Assistant] So after months and months of investigations in August, detectives did label Bart a person of interest in Dolly's death.


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[Assistant] And they put together a picture of what they believed had happened on the afternoon that she died.


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[Assistant] From talking to Bart's friends and acquaintances, they learned that his bitterness and anger towards Dolly had gotten to a very alarming level.


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[Assistant] One friend admitted to detectives that Bart had quote, boasted how he was planning the perfect murder.


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[Assistant] And you didn't go tell anyone, fuckface? I am- I- that will never be.


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[Assistant] Something that doesn't shock me. We say it every time, but I can't not say it. I don't understand! Like, anyone who tells me that they're gonna murder somebody, like legit, is like, I have the pr- I know how to get away with the perfect murder. 9-1-1, what's my emergency? That. That's the thing! That's my emergency. I don't get it. I don't get it.


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[Assistant] Chalk me. If someone said that. I'd be like, what? Like, that's not even a joke. I'd be like, don't say that to me. I've never even heard somebody joke about that. Like, it's just not a thing.


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[Assistant] And not only that he said like, I know how to get away with the perfect murder, but the fact that he was so


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[Assistant] So the police, like I said, put together a theory, and that was...


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[Assistant] That Bart had put a plan into motion on June 6th and he went to Dolly's apartment. She was not expecting him.


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[Assistant] And his car had actually been spotted by the apartment manager, uhm, that managed the apartment complex.


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[Assistant] And after being let inside, detectives figured some kind of argument had started between the two of them that escalated to the point where Bart quote unquote lost it and grabbed the 38 Rossi revolver that Dolly had actually been given by a friend.


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[Assistant] Because she was so worried about what was going on. Her friend had given her this gun for protection. Wow.


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[Assistant] Believed that Bart went about the apartment, staging the scene, repositioned the body, placed the gun in Dolly's lap.


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[Assistant] And then left through the sliding glass door, able to lock it behind him as he went.


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[Assistant] As a fucking dentist. Like, can you imagine if this motherfucker was your dentist? And you were like, you had murdered someone. Not only did you murder someone later, but you had murdered someone when you were my dentist. You murdered two people. Yeah. Damn. Insane. Damn.


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[Assistant] So creepy. Yeaah. Like, creepy's not even the right word, but- He's just- I can't believe he was able to just-


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[Assistant] Damn. Can you imagine he fucking coached your child's little league team? Imagine that. That's even worse than being your dentist. He was around your child. That's scary.


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[Assistant] But unfortunately, even though there was a lot of circumstantial evidence and hearsay that led them to this conclusion,


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[Assistant] Now, Dolly's family actually ended up hiring their own private pathologist to review everything.


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[Assistant] But that doctor also wasn't able to rule out suicide as a possible death or cause of death, excuse me.


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[Assistant] So there wasn't a lot they could do. And because of that, the case just ended up going cold. Damn. So Bart went on to graduate from dental school.


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[Assistant] Marry Jennifer, start a family, and relocate to the suburbs outside of Atlanta, just leaving the investigation and all that gossip over there behind him.


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[Assistant] Wow. But still lived in the same state. That's what's shocking. I mean, George is really big. You like opened up a dental practice and like no one...


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[Assistant] So the day after, now we're going back to Jennifer's investigation, the day after Jennifer's body was discovered in the Corbin house, Bart was served with a warrant that allowed authorities to test him for gunshot residue.


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[Assistant] But by that point enough time had passed that he probably washed his hands 650,000 times and like washed his clothes as well. So there was nothing. They didn't find anything.


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[Assistant] And beyond the residue test, he continued to refuse to cooperate in any way with the police or give any kind of formal statement. But luckily the police were undeterred.


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[Assistant] And the Gwinnett police corporal Dan Huggins told reporters we will continue investigating this case with or without him. Good. They were steadfast, which is awesome.


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[Assistant] So on December 8th 2004, the news broke that investigators were now investigating Jennifer's death as a homicide. And while they hadn't officially labeled Bart a suspect, they were very interested in speaking to him about the murder.


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[Assistant] The press had learned a little bit about Bart's past when it was uncovered that he had quite the connection to Dolly Hearn's suspicious death. Yeah. And everybody was putting the pieces together.


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[Assistant] So the press was starting to ask questions now about Dolly too.


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[Assistant] Did whatever they could to spread the word that this death was a homicide.


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[Assistant] To evidence that Jennifer was future-oriented.


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[Assistant] Now, while Bart continued to drag on the investigation and dodge investigators, an emergency hearing was held to determine custody of the two boys.


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[Assistant] That Bart was well aware this hearing was going on and he was given an opportunity to show up.


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[Assistant] And he knew that if he didn't show up his in-laws were definitely going to get custody.


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[Assistant] He refused to go to the hearing and never even checked in with his kids. Yea, cause he doesn't give a shit. Like he literally just abandoned those kids as soon as he killed their mother. Yea, which is-


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[Assistant] Insane. He severed the connection. Wild to me that you could do that. He's a monster. Like, I can't even move to another state, like sometimes I talk about it and then I'm like, no way, I would miss my nieces too much.


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[Assistant] Wonderful of circumstances. And you just killed their mother and then leave them alone in a house? And left them to fend for themselves? Like what a fucking monster. And left them to find their mother like that. That's the last image both of those kids have of their mother. Truly a monster. Truly.


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[Assistant] But luckily the police were moving quickly and efficiently. Good. Just one week after Jennifer's murder, the DA, Danny Porter, officially designated Bart Corman as the primary focus and the main suspect in the investigation into the murder.


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[Assistant] Detectives in Richmond County, where Dolly was killed.


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[Assistant] Had reopened their investigation into her death. Oh wow.


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[Assistant] And they, those investigators made a statement asking anyone who might have information to please come forward with it.


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[Assistant] Law enforcement didn't have the best understanding of stalking. I mean the laws surrounding it had barely been put into place yet.


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[Assistant] And they didn't know to look for the kinds of behavior patterns that Bart was displaying. Like the escalating kind of thing? Yeah, becoming more and more menacing.


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[Assistant] And even if they had understood those things, like I said earlier, there weren't laws, there weren't many laws in general, but especially not in Georgia, that would have protected Dolly from what Bart would have or could have done to her. That's so fucked up.


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[Assistant] Yeah, the law couldn't do much until she'd actually been hurt, which is insane in and of itself. And at that point, as we know, was already way too fucking late. Exactly. Which is why stalking laws exist now.


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[Assistant] Punish these weirdos. But in 2004, Bart's behavior was easily recognizable to these detectives.


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[Assistant] Where Dolly's death had taken place, there was no blood spatter expert at that point, and they didn't typically call one in if they thought the case was a suicide.


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[Assistant] But in 2004, Scott Peebles sat down with a forensic analyst, uh, Dewayne Piper, and he looked over


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[Assistant] The photos and told peoples if she committed suicide, then somebody moved her body after.


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[Assistant] Now, his confirmation that the body had been moved meant that after 14 years of inactivity, Dolly's case could finally be labeled a homicide. Finally. Because she didn't move after killing herself, obviously. No, of course not. And now, investigators' main suspect, obviously, was Bart Corbin.


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[Assistant] So on December 14th, BART's attorneys broke their silence for the first time and held a press conference of their own.


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[Assistant] Um, then they declined to elaborate on what those things might be. Cause they don't exist. But when asked why he remained uncooperative with the investigation, Bart himself finally spoke up and said,


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[Assistant] I've been persecuted in the media in the last 10 days. I'm anxious to speak.


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[Assistant] Is like the real version of the truth or the thing you think your version of the truth is going to come out? Exactly. No. No. No.


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[Assistant] So a week later on the morning of December 23rd, a grand jury in Richmond County considered the evidence against BART in the murder of Dolly Hearn.


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[Assistant] So a warrant for his arrest was faxed to Gwinnett County authorities. This is fucking awesome.


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[Assistant] So, they faxed the warrant for his arrest to Gwinnett County authorities where he lives, and they were more than prepared. They had been monitoring Bart around the clock, so they knew that he was at his office with his secretary. Oh my god, shut up. So with an arrest warrant in hand, they headed straight to the office and waited outside for the go-ahead to arrest him.


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[Assistant] They got into his car and they started driving out of the parking lot. Now little did they know at first, but police were close behind and a news helicopter that had been tipped off was also flying overhead. Shut the fuck up. So just minutes after they left the parking lot.


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[Assistant] Officers got the, the okay to arrest him.


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[Assistant] So as he and his mistress pulled up to a stoplight at a red light, three cruisers surrounded the car.


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[Assistant] Officers got out with their guns drawn and demanded that Bart exit the vehicle with his hands in the motherfucking air.


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[Assistant] Oh my god, I know. He looked completely stunned, to which I say, ha! Yeah. But, he did as he was told.


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[Assistant] He was handcuffed, he got put into an unmarked police vehicle.


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[Assistant] And the entire scene was captured on camera from beginning to end.


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[Assistant] And was aired on all the news stations in Georgia later that night.


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[Assistant] Bart's worst nightmare. Obsessed. Reputation? Gone. It's like ooooh. Reputation? Tainted. Yeaah. Way worse. Yeaah. Worse than you ever could have imagined. Way worse than a divorce would have tainted it. Just get fucking divorced dude. Yeaah. But at that point, don't even do that because you're already a murderer. Yeaah.


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[Assistant] Bart's arrest was encouraging for both families, the Hearn and the Barber family.


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[Assistant] But not everybody was eager to get too far ahead of themselves. They were very worried about getting their hopes up. Of course. Dolly's brother Carlton told reporters, we still understand that it's a long road ahead of us. And Jennifer's sister Heather was also cautious. She told the press, we do not feel victorious and I suspect it's not a victorious day for the Hearns either.


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[Assistant] Now, I can definitely understand why both of them were apprehensive in the wake of Bart's arrest. Again, for Dolly's family, it had been


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] When a grand jury indicted Bart on three counts regarding Jennifer's murder, because at that point he hadn't even been arrested for that.


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[Assistant] But a bench warrant was issued for his arrest in that case. Woah. So he got like arrested in prison I guess. Wow. Or in jail.


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[Assistant] Now while he sat in Augusta, cause he was in Augusta jail, he got, he had to be like transferred over there because


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Dolly's murder happened in that county. Yeah, he was sitting in that jail without bond, and while that was happening,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Okay. So like, a robbery case where evidence from a separate burglary case in the past is used. Okay. That makes sense, right? Yeah, I can see that. Okay.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So the DA, Danny Porter, he felt like it would be specifically implied in these two cases and said, this is a classic case for similar transaction evidence. It's going to be really important to both cases. But I think it's kind of hard to get that entered.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So under Georgia law, a defendant's past criminal history can only be introduced under certain circumstances, including, quote,


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[Assistant] Allowing the evidence and testimony from the Dolly Hearn murder case and Jennifer's case or vice versa.


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[Assistant] Would 100% demonstrate a pattern of behavior and an indication of guilty.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Exactly, the prosecution is trying to do that while the defense is trying to dismantle all of it. Exactly. But finally on March 30th, 2006 now, a judge in Gwinnett County ordered that evidence related to the death of Dolly Hearn


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But the Supreme Court was like, yeah, we're not interested in that. No. Like the lower court's decision stands.


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[Assistant] So, while both lawyers, while lawyers on both sides continued to battle over these pretrial motions in the courtroom.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Detectives in Richmond and in Gwinnett counties continued their investigations, just trying to gather even more evidence that could be used at trial.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now among the most important evidence was the origin of the gun used in Jennifer's death. They didn't know where it had come from.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And as far as they knew, the Corbins actually didn't own any guns. So determining where it had come from was extremely important. Now in the course of their investigation,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] They learned that just days before Jennifer's murder, Bart had traveled to Troy, Alabama to visit his old friend Richard Wilson.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now, the visit seemed very suspicious to detectives and they figured that the murder and the timing of the visit were two likely connected events. So they paid a visit to Mr. Richard Wilson and his wife in Alabama to ask a couple of questions about Bart's visit. Uh oh. Now Richard Wilson and his wife told the investigators


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Actually, as far as they knew, the Corbins did own a shotgun.


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[Assistant] And they said, we never gave a gun to Bart or anyone in the Corbin family for that matter. So just to be sure, the detectives were like, I don't know.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] A 38 special, that's what it's called, exactly like the one used in Jennifer's murder. What the fuck? So you're a couple of fucking liars. How dare you? So in the weeks that followed, detectives in Georgia started learning more and more about Richard Wilson and who he was and how he was connected to Bart.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It turned out that he and Bart had met almost 20 years earlier.


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[Assistant] When Richard was working for Bart's father, oh, as a salesman for a chemical company. Now in the 15 years that passed since then,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Richard and Bart had become really good friends, and Richard had this really weird sense of loyalty.


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[Assistant] That ended up playing a very significant role in this case. Ew. Yeah, it's very layered. Don't be loyal for those people.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] These hoes ain't loyal. Don't do that. And Bart is a hoe. Yeah. So among the- Bart.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Had paid a surprise visit to Richard and Janice's home in Troy the summer before Jennifer had been killed.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Bart and Richard had a ton of conversations where Bart was telling Richard.


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[Assistant] All about his crumbling marriage, how his wife was having an affair with quote unquote


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[Assistant] Someone on the internet. Oh boo hoo. And he had plans to divorce Jennifer.


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[Assistant] But was nervous about it because, you know, she really flew off the handle all the time. Oh, shut the fuck up. No.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And Bart Corbin's relationship was collected over a pretty long period of time and it took a lot of diligence to get.


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[Assistant] In fact, since they interviewed him in the days after Jennifer's death,


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[Assistant] Richard Wilson had maintained that he knew nothing about the murder and maintained that he-


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[Assistant] Still maintained he never provided Bart with any kind of gun.


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[Assistant] It turned out that Richard Wilson's loyalty to Bart did have limits, when he was threatened with a subpoena to testify under oath.


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[Assistant] He was like, mmmm, actually I have to talk to you about something. He became a bit more forthcoming. Crazy how that happened. Yea, suddenly he's chatty. Wow.


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[Assistant] Now on September 13th, 2006, as jury selection was underway in Gwinnett County,


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[Assistant] The District Attorney Danny Porter made an emergency trip to Troy, Alabama.


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[Assistant] To record what would become a critical interview with Richard Wilson.


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[Assistant] Bart returned to Troy alone for that November 30th visit.


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[Assistant] Come on. He said just in case Jennifer or one of her family members became threatening.


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[Assistant] Now, it turned out that Richard Wilson had just gotten a 38th special as a payment for some mechanic work that he'd done.


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[Assistant] But after that, they didn't really do anything with it. It was just kind of sitting around the house.


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[Assistant] So Richard Wilson gave his friend Bart the revolver that evening and then Bart returned to Buford with it.


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[Assistant] And four days later, Jennifer Corbin was shot with Richard Wilson's gun. Wow.


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[Assistant] So the prosecution's case against Bart Corbin in Gwinnett County


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[Assistant] Before that was strong, but there were definitely holes that could have been poked in the case. And one of the biggest issues that could have been poked was the fact that before they spoke to Richard Wilson, they had no idea where that gun had come from. Now they knew. And now this interview was on tape.


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[Assistant] It turned out that nothing was more damning than that interview.


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[Assistant] Yeah, it would have been a really big hole. So the next day, district attorney there, Danny Porter,


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[Assistant] gave a copy of Richard Wilson's recorded interview to BART's lawyers, who had until then been eager to go to trial. But hours later,


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[Assistant] The DA's office got a call from Bart's defense team saying that Bart now wanted to discuss a plea deal. He was fucked.


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[Assistant] Oh yea, where is he gonna go? Like, there's no way out of this one. Because between the similar transaction evidence connecting both of the murders,


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[Assistant] And now Richard Wilson's interview connecting the gun directly to Bart.


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[Assistant] He and his defense knew that there was pretty much no chance he was going to be acquitted.


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[Assistant] So instead of proceeding with the trial, which again was already currently underway with jury selection.


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[Assistant] And on September 15th, he appeared before a judge in a Lawrenceville courtroom.


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[Assistant] And there was nothing you could do. There's literally nowhere you can go. You fucked yourself. Like, we got ya. And all of fucking Georgia knows exactly who the fuck you are. How's your reputation doing, buddy? Big reputation. Yeah. That's swift, right?


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[Assistant] Is it? Yea, I have no idea. I think she says big reputation. She says that in the song.


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[Assistant] After Bart's confession, Judge Michael Clark allowed two family members to make a statement.


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[Assistant] Ndali's brother Carlton shared a similar sentiment and told the court 16 years of silence. By that point it was 16 years. He said 16 years of pain. Bart Corbin has disgraced his profession, dentistry, and stolen from mankind. My family is in complete agreement with the sentence.


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[Assistant] And all it really came down to, I'm sure, was money and greed. Of course. And it's like, okay, then you should have gotten a fucking prenup. He wanted to keep his dental practice, he didn't want people to be


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[Assistant] I don't want anyone to know I hit her. Like you're a piece of shit. He's disgusting. But you lost. The part where he was like, she can't prove it. Yeah.


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[Assistant] I love- I hate when that's like their first offense when you- you just hit someone and you know very well that you have hit them and you say, you can't prove it. You can't prove it. Like you're a fucking animal. Like fuck you. That's exactly- You're an animal. And you got exactly what you deserved.


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[Assistant] So when court was adjourned, reporters asked the District Attorney Danny Porter about the deal that he had made with Corbin, and he told them,


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[Assistant] He won't have a realistic chance, meaning at parole, until 28 years. And as far as things went with Richard, I kept reading that like it was a quote, but it was my writing. So he won't have a realistic chance at parole until 28 years.


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[Assistant] And then, as far as things went with Richard Wilson, Porter said he had no intention of actually charging Wilson with a crime.


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[Assistant] Once Jennifer was found dead, he figured it out. I think he figured if he kept his mouth shut and his head down, it would blow over. Which is really fucked up.


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[Assistant] But overall, Danny Porter believed that Richard Wilson was just too scared to come forward and didn't want to betray his friend, which like, you can betray your friend if it means that you were not involved in a murder. That's the thing, it's like,


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[Assistant] It really is because of that that they were able to hold the right person responsible for the murders of Dolly and Jennifer. And I think that's probably why they didn't go any further with charging him with like obstruction of justice or anything like that.


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[Assistant] As of today, Bart Corbin remains incarcerated at the Central State Prison in, I think it's Macon, Georgia, but I'm not positive. I think you're right. I think so.


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[Assistant] I hope he wouldn't get parole. I mean, I would think sitting on that board of parole officers, like he got away with this for 16 years and clearly didn't feel any shred of guilt.


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[Assistant] Dolly was 27 when she met him. Like she still had some of the best years of her life ahead of her. And so did Jennifer, like who knows what would have happened. Maybe she would have ended up with Anita. Yea, and it's like she had two boys, like two little boys.


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[Assistant] Uhm, and luckily the boys, in case anybody is wondering, they did end up, uh,


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[Assistant] Uh, Jennifer's sister Heather got permanent custody. Good. So that makes me happy. She seems like a really good person. Yeaah, and it's like, that's, I'm glad. And it's like a piece of their mom is still with them. Yeaah, exactly. Yeaah. Oof. But what a fucking tragic case overall.


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[Assistant] I just want to hear it now. That's cool. Does uh, does he narrate it?


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[Assistant] Uh, yeaah. This isn't one of those ads that like you stick into a show and we're just actually not talking about it.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You know what I'm saying, crystal girlies and boyies? Yea, there's crystal girlies and boyies that are saying, yes! Yes. I feel that. I hear you. I hear you, I see you. Crystal girls, gays, and lays. There you go. I love you guys. Okay, well, bye!


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[Assistant] That would be awesome, and it comes out July 26th. And we'll be in New York the day that it comes out, doing like a fun little chat, right? Yea, a little event event. I don't even know what we're doing, I'm just like yea I'll be there. We're just chatting about the book. Yea. Just like by ourselves. I can do that. Yea. By ourselves.


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[Assistant] Crazy. Uhm, so I'm just gonna start at the beginning. Does that sound good to you? That's always an awesome place to start. Fantastic. This is a fun story and it's also a scary story and there's also some parts that are not fun.


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[Assistant] Awesome, I love all that. And are way heavier on the scary. Ooh. So we're gonna start by talking about Bobby Mackey.


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[Assistant] Uh, he opened Bobby Mackie's Music World in 1978. And when country singer Bobby Mackie opened the nightclub that he named after himself,


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[Assistant] His main goal was basically just to make it like a tight-knit small little nightclub where people would come, hang out, vibe, dance, just enjoy some country music.


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[Assistant] Just like, quaint goals. Quaint goals. But by 1978, he had spent more than 12 years traveling around the country. Either with his own country western band or as an employee with the railroad. And at that point, he was like very, very ready to settle down after those 12 years.


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[Assistant] He had been born and raised in a super small town, Concord, Kentucky.


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[Assistant] Is nineteen. Nineteen. Nineteen. That's not even old enough to drink.


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[Assistant] Nope. Nope. And not at Bobby Mackey's. Nope. But, so he was from that small town and he was kind of ready to get back to that small town lifestyle after all the traveling and everything. Uhm, and there was like a few reasons for that sudden urge to settle aside from the, you know, traveling over more than a decade. He was now married and his wife Janet was actually pregnant.


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[Assistant] And, like I said, he really wanted to open his own nightclub. He told producers from Discovery Channel, it was either move to Nashville or get my own place.


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[Assistant] But it turned out he didn't have to look too far from home to find the perfect spot for his new club.


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[Assistant] It was set up pretty perfectly, but at the very least it was a good start.


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[Assistant] So Bobby told reporters, in my mind's eye, I could see it all. I could see the crowd. I could see people dancing. So there was nothing going to stop me. I had to have the place. Had to have it.


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[Assistant] But like apparently, Bobby didn't see and couldn't sense that the place was totally and completely haunted. Oh, haunted as fuck.


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[Assistant] So the property, which actually still sits and is like open, at 44 Licking Pike, it has had a very long and very legend-y history that started waaaay before it was a nightclub, a roadhouse, or really anything.


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[Assistant] Now the plant was built in 1850, so that's how far we're going back.


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[Assistant] There actually really was a well that had been built back when it was a slaughterhouse.


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[Assistant] Like back when the slaughterhouse was running, that collected all the animal fluids, specifically the blood. Oh. And that well and the legend surrounding it would later play a huge part in actually a murder. The night, uh, the 1896 murder of one Pearl Brian. Oh. This is a real story. Oh damn. And this is really sad.


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[Assistant] In 1896? 1896. Pearl was a 22 year old girl from Indiana.


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[Assistant] And late in January of 1896, she told her parents that she'd gotten a telegram from a family friend in Indianapolis. I said it.


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[Assistant] But, so she got that telegram from that place and these family friends asked her to come visit. And she was like, hell yeaah, sounds awesome.


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[Assistant] So she set off on her trip and just sadly days later on February 1st her body was found decapitated. Oh my god. In a large field less than 600 yards from Fort St. Thomas and very close by to the abandoned slaughterhouse.


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[Assistant] So the coroner determined that Pearl had actually been drugged with cocaine just prior to her death.


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[Assistant] And the cause of death was obviously the decapitation. Oh god. And they believed that she had been killed where her body was discovered in that field.


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[Assistant] Unfortunately, the coroner also said that Pearl would have been alive when the decapitation started.


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[Assistant] So, 1896 investigators started trying to put the pieces of the case together.


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[Assistant] And they found out that the last time Pearl had been seen alive was on the evening of January 31st. And she was spotted with two men, Scott Jackson and Alonzo Walling.


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[Assistant] Now, the last time the three of them, excuse me, were spotted was in a cab from Cincinnati that was headed back in the direction of Fort Thomas. Oh no. Where she was found.


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[Assistant] Now the detectives are pretty sure that these two guys had something to do with Pearl's murder and they were right on the right track.


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[Assistant] When Scott Jackson was arrested, he told the police that he and Pearl had secretly been in a relationship for the past several months and that recently he had found out that she was pregnant and he was not exactly pleased about this.


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[Assistant] I just want to put a trigger warning here because this is going to be a little bit tough going forward just for this one section.


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[Assistant] Just a trigger warning for loss of pregnancy slash miscarriage stuff. Thanks. You're welcome.


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[Assistant] So he was, like I said, not happy that she was pregnant and suggested that Pearl try to induce her own miscarriage by drinking, I think, is it ergot? Ergot, yea. Ergot, which is a fungus and rye mixed together. That's what they tried to blame the Salem witch trials on. Oh shit, you're right. I forgot about that.


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[Assistant] Uhm, so she obviously refused this because she was like, I'm not gonna do that.


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[Assistant] Um, and she said, she refused it multiple times. Like he kept being like, no, this is what you need to do. Like we're not having a baby. You need to drink this. And she's like, no, I'm not doing that. No, she gets to decide there, friend. Yeah. Her body, her choice. Yeah. And it's like, you don't have to be a part of this baby's life if you don't want to. Go away. Bye. Bye. See ya. Never.


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[Assistant] She kept refusing, kept refusing, and finally he sent her himself to Cincinnati to have an abortion performed.


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[Assistant] Now from the story, it sounds like she either didn't go or did but didn't go through with the abortion. Okay.


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[Assistant] So on the night of January 31st, Scott and Alonzo there invited Pearl out and they slipped cocaine into her drink


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[Assistant] That didn't seem to work as far as they were concerned, which I was like, how would you really know? I was just gonna say. But they didn't give it.


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[Assistant] Anytime. And they decided their only option left now would be to murder Pearl and the unborn baby.


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[Assistant] Now, the reason that they wanted to decapitate her was because they believed that she wouldn't be able to be identified without her head.


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[Assistant] Which like, I know it's 1896 and like, obviously, you know, certain things aren't available, but like, wow, okay. Wow, and that's just fucked up. It's super fucked up. And like, you loved this girl enough to have a relationship with her. By God. To get her pregnant. Like, Jesus.


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[Assistant] So once they killed her, they dumped her body in that field outside of Fort Thomas, but when it came down to it, they both ended up giving different stories about what had happened to Pearl's head, what they had done with it.


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[Assistant] One of them said that they threw it into a reservoir on their way back to Cincinnati.


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[Assistant] Which I don't think is what happened. And the other one said that they had buried her head in a sandbar near Dayton.


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[Assistant] Now, it doesn't seem like either of those two stories are the case, but...


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[Assistant] They never found Pearl's head. She had to be buried without her head. Are you fucking kidding me? Detectives believed, uh, and suspected that they had probably destroyed her head in an incinerator because Scott Jackson was a student at a dental school and had access to that incinerator. Holy shit. It fucked up.


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[Assistant] That's wild. So they ended up being executed obviously for Pearl's murder on March 20th, 1897.


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[Assistant] So Scott, Alonzo, and Pearl have all been worked into the legends and the stories surrounding the abandoned slaughterhouse and then everything else it would come to be.


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[Assistant] Now some legends claim that they were Satanists and that Pearl had been murdered during a ritual, ritual sacrifice. And those legends say that the reason Pearl's head was never found


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[Assistant] Was because it was thrown into the well of the slaughterhouse, which was like super, super deep.


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[Assistant] But, by the 1920s, they decided, you know what, maybe we should fuckin' tear down that old slaughterhouse because damn, if it really is being used for, uh, rituals and decapitations, we should get rid of it. Yeah, probably.


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[Assistant] Now like I said, people weren't really talking about the legend of what happened to Pearl as often because they were more focused on modern things like prohibition and gambling. Yeah. Fun things. Old sport. Well prohibition's not fun. But in 1933, just as prohibition was about to end, also I should acknowledge that you said old sport because that was funny. That's okay.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I felt you understand it in your soul. I did. I love Gatsby. But just as it was about to end, a man named Ernest Buck Brady bought the Roadhouse and opened it up as a restaurant and casino, and he ended up naming it the Primrose, which I think is really pretty. Ooh, that is pretty.


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[Assistant] Now in no time the place was hopping. People loved hanging out there.


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[Assistant] But more importantly, they liked spending their money there.


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[Assistant] Now, that latter part obviously brought, uh, attention from the mob. Oh, that whole thing. Oh yea, that whole thing.


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[Assistant] Eventually, they were actually able to pressure Buck into selling the club to them. So the mob took over. Damn. The mob is like, mine.


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[Assistant] Mine, Money Pit, I'll take it. I'll take it. So, Frank Screw Andrews. Yep. They called him Screw. Yeah, they did. Of course. Don't ask why. Absolutely. He managed the now rebranded club that they were calling the Latin Quarter. Ooh. Sexy. And it gained even more popularity.


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[Assistant] Now in the 1950s, it was actually the, or one of the most popular illegal gambling dens in the area.


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[Assistant] But in 1961, the residents of the town were like, hey, uh, criminal activity's a little too rife here in law enforcement, like maybe could you crack down on that a bit?


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[Assistant] And law enforcement was like, yeah, we should probably do that. So they did. And they closed down the club.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I feel like everybody's been to a hard rock cafe. 100%. And usually they just have like, you know, cool memorabilia and a good burger. Yeah. This hard rock cafe was hard rock. Hell yeah it was. Because if the residents were uncomfy before, they did not realize that things were going to get a whole lot worse.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] According to the Cincinnati Inquirer, the hard rock catered to a little bit of a rougher crowd of people made up of quote, all people from out of town with an interest in live hard rock music.


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[Assistant] Oh my god, you are such a mom and I love you for that.


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[Assistant] No, so that, but that was like the weird thing about this property. No matter what it was operating as, a road house, the Primrose, the Latin Quarter, the hard rock.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] There was always some kind of criminal element attached to it.


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[Assistant] Or worse, to investigate crime scenes. Oof. Lots of deaths going on.


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[Assistant] The Wilder Police Chief, it is. The Wilder Police Chief, Robert Schindler I believe it is, told reporters, we have had an awful lot of trouble down there, but most of it happens in the parking lot.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now by the time the club, like the Hard Rock Cafe closed at the end of 1977, several murders had taken place in the parking lot. Oh wow. And actually just weeks before it closed its doors as the Hard Rock, a man had been killed with a shotgun.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And a couple months before that, another man had also been shot to death as he was leaving the lot. Damn. Yeah.


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[Assistant] Intense. That parking lot. Just like, I think it would close and a lot of bar fights would take place and, you know, it would be kind of attractive. Well that's where everybody kind of spills out. Right. Exactly. And I think it just attracted a rougher crowd. Geez.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But all that to say, the property had gone through a lot of loss, a lot of violence and tragedy by the time Bobby laid eyes on it in 1978.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Alright, alright, alright. Right back to business. Building the nightclub. Bobby might not have had a bad feeling, like I've told you 47 times now, but the first time she got out of the car and laid eyes on the place, his wife Janet sure fucking did.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] In fact, the very first time she laid eyes on this place, she said as she closed the car door and turned to look to the building, she swore she saw a person move in the doorway and then she saw the front door close.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The place was dimly lit, all the tables and the chairs were still set up, there was posters and decorations hung on the wall. Oh, creepy. It basically looked like whoever had owned the place before just walked out one day and never came back. Wow. Cause that actually is kind of exactly what happened. Like that's actually what happened, so. It was like that cause that's what happened. Yeah.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] She later said, it felt like someone was in there and there wasn't nobody in there but him and I.


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[Assistant] But when she pushed open the swinging doors that led to the kitchen,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It is. And I think, like, your first thought is kind of like, oh my god, are those people, like, still there having that argument? Yeah. But I don't think it's that, I think it's the energy. It's the energy. Exactly. Ooh. So creepy.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Um, he, he was very excited. He was poking around the building, he was singing to himself, just checking things out. Oh yea, he's got a new place. And all the while Janet is just standing by the door waiting to get the fuck out of there. And after a while she was like, hey, can we leave? I'm scared as fuck. Let's go. And finally they did.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But as they drove home, she could tell. Cause at this point they hadn't purchased it. They were just kinda like scoping locations. But she knew that this one.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Like, was the one that Bobby had fallen in love with. She's not gonna get him out of it. No. One, she didn't want to like, ruin it and be the damper on it, bust his bubble. And two, she also knew that she was not going to be able to talk him out of it.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Because Bobby was the kind of guy who would not be talked out of something once his mind was made up. Ah, so she's like, why even bother? Exactly, she knew how it was gonna go. Turns out she was right.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And just a few weeks later, they were now the official new owners of the building at 44 Licking Pike. What a name. The haunted ass building. Licking Pike. Licking Pike. Like that. Every time you say it, I'm like, are you sure?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Oh, I love pie, right? Let's call it 44 pie. Pie.


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[Assistant] But a few days after signing the papers that made it official, the Mackies were at the club, like kind of cleaning out all the decorations that had just been left by the previous owner and all the random junk. And they spotted somebody in the doorway of the club.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But she called it to Bobby to investigate. And as he got closer, he could see that that figure was actually a real person.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] This person looked to be about 20 years old, a little bit shorter than Bobby, and just, you know, casually dressed.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So uhm, probably for that reason, Janet wasn't so sure about Carl at first. But, again, she was five months pregnant at the time.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And Bobby knew that too, obviously, so he was like, I'm probably gonna need some extra help around here sooner or later. So, you know what, let's take Carl up on the offer.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And he also figured, and Janet did too, that Carl's knowledge about the club would make him an asset along the way, especially once they opened the place. For sure.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So he started right away and he seemed to be over the moon to be back, like he loved being there. I thought this was a red flag at first, it's not.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I think Carl loved this place, and I also think that this place loved Carl.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Ultimately. I'm interested to see why it's not beautiful. It might be beautiful like in the very end, but I feel like at this moment in time, the place was like calling to Carl. In my opinion at least.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Okay, I kinda like that. That makes sense. Yea, that makes a lot of sense. Yea, you know? But he also told Janet once he started, he said, don't worry about the ghosts in here, they're my friends.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But she just wrote the comment off to Carl having, you know, like a bit of an offbeat personality and not much more. Yea. You know, she would probably feel different as her time at the club went on. Uh oh.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And actually a few days later she'd probably feel pretty different. Uh oh. So a few days later she was cleaning in the main room of the club and she heard arguing again coming from the kitchen. It kind of sounded like the same voices that she had heard the first day that she and Bobby had come to the club.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So she made her way to the kitchen again very cautiously this time. And again, she found it completely empty. And as soon as she walked in though, she heard a weird sound coming from the sink.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So she started backing away from this thing completely horrified, but then suddenly she felt a huge hand on her back.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I would want to talk to Carl immediately and be like, are these your friends?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Then you would have been happy because immediately he came running into the kitchen responding to Janet screaming. And as he walked in, the force let up.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] She litter- like later, Janet said, if it wasn't for him, who knows what would have happened next.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So Janet and Carl immediately went to Bobby because they were like, bitch, you own this place. Yeah, this is not good. They were like, uh, I almost just got drowned in a sink full of blood. And I also heard Phantom arguing just like the first day that we got here.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Honestly, forget it. Well, Bobby didn't want to talk about any of it. He was just like, I don't really think there's anything going on here.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Like that's a weird thing to make up. I don't know maybe if he thought that like she didn't want the club or something? But that's like a weird one to make up. Yeah, I don't know. But he said, I don't believe in ghosts. There's gotta be some other explanation. Something else. Can't be that.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, obviously. Let me tell you, the wrath Drew would face. If I had a ghost hand, shove my ass closer to a fucking sink full of red ooze that wanted to put my head under that, and he was just like, man, I don't believe in ghosts, so fuck off. Yeah, I'd be mad. I am angry. Yeah, that's what I would say.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So Janet and Carl, they were like, yeah, I don't really care if you believe us or not, there's spirits here, Bobby. Yeah. And before long, they would not be the only ones to think that.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Because a few nights after the attack on Janet in the kitchen, patrol officer, like literal police officer, Larry Hornsby, was doing his rounds, and he pulled into the parking lot of Bobby Mackey's just to do a sweep.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now while he was parked in the lot, he thought he saw somebody moving around inside the club, which was closed at the time.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So he was like, oh shit, that could be a break-in. So he called for backup and additional officer.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And once that officer arrived, the two of them went into the building announcing themselves as they went in the front door. Inside the club was completely dark.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And Hornsby was actually starting to second-guess what he'd seen through the window. He was like, I don't know, like, maybe my eyes are playing tricks on me. He's like, shit, did I just go back up for nothing? Exactly. But just as he was second-guessing himself, both officers started hearing noises from the backstage area of the club.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But as they were searching the room, they heard the front door slam shut. Whaaat? So at that point they were like, I guess like if somebody wasn't here they just fled, so.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So they reported what they found and they left the club for the night. And I'm sure they probably were like, damn, like,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Just a few nights later, Hornsby was back at Bobby Mackey's, and this time,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He was actually responding to the scene of an, uh, of an accident in the parking lot. Okay. And by this time he and his partner, or excuse me, sorry.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] By the time he and his partner were able to get the driver out of the car, the guy had unfortunately died.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I know. And now it was laying out on the pavement. So Hornsby didn't want to cause a scene, so he started looking around for something in his car that he could use to cover the body. Like, I guess before the first responders got there.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And as he was doing that, he said this young woman came up to him and offered him a tablecloth.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So after she handed it to him, she went back inside and you know, he just went about his job.