[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Like a kingdom in school. Like a dynasty. And I think at one point Rory is like, well, King Henry VIII did this, like separated from the church, you know, like made his own church.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And I think Paris is like, yeah, he also beheaded two of his wives. How much of a role model do you want me to make this guy? That's literally how I feel about that statement. I love it. But the Brookfield Police Department was also receiving dozens of letters and correspondence, mostly from concerned citizens of Brookfield.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now, in the end, all of this was really for naught.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Because on October 28th, the first day of Arnie's trial, Superior Court Judge Robert Callahan refused to allow a defense of demonic possession. I'm so glad to hear that. He said evidence of demonic possession is simply not relevant.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And Callahan says he based his decision on the fact that such a defense could not be reliable and could actually mislead the jury. It's so opinion based. He said it would be incompetent evidence and I would not allow it.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Good for him. It is, it's all the opinion base, that's the thing. And it can't be proved. Right, like there's no tangible thing to prove it. Now apparently Manila, which I'm shocked that he's shocked, he was shocked by the judge's decisions to disallow the demon defense. Which I'm like, were you really shocked by that my guy?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And after asking for a recess to now come up with a new defense strategy, he went right back to it anyway.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He actually decided to go against the judge and smear his reputation. He told reporters outside the court, he may have to disqualify himself.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And then he accused the judge of prejudice and anti-Catholic bias.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He said it would not affect the intent of the crime. And he said any testimony relating to possession would only be rooted in subjective religious beliefs, not scientific fact. Yea, and there's also no law that says like we can acquit you if you were possessed at the time of murder. Where is the separation between church and state here? You can't do that. Uh huh.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Which was Arnie Johnson, in a drunken rage, stabbed Alan Bono in the stomach four times after Bono allegedly made a derogatory remark about his girlfriend.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The evidence offered in support of this claim was the 5-inch folding knife found at the scene that belonged to him.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The victim had a heavy concentration of alcohol in the blood sample taken at the time of his death.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, server was also called the Testify from the Mug and Munch Cafe.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And they said both Arnie and Alan had been served a large number of drinks on the afternoon of the murder.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But forensic experts admitted that, well, Arnie was almost certainly drunk at the time of the murder. They were like, absolutely.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It was Bono who had consumed a lot more of the wine at the cafe. He was more drunk.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now other witnesses included Debbie Glatzel and Arnie's sister Wanda, who gave their pretty straightforward accounts of the day's events. Uhm, there was also


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Airtight demonic possession defense. Manila just said that it was self-defense, which is a pretty normal...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I'm actually surprised he didn't go after the restaurant for like over serving. That would have even made more sense than demonic fucking possession.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But he claimed a drunken Alan Bono instigated a violent confrontation with Arnie, and Arnie killed Bono in defense of himself and his family.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] There were claims made that Alan Bono had attempted to grab the youngest, Mary.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And this, that's alleged. Yeaah. But they were claiming this was also what set Arnie off. Like an aggravating factor. Which would be an aggravating factor, that's his nine year old niece. Absolutely. Or, uh, sister. Cousin. Sorry. But obviously, we only have the accounts of whoever survived here to go off of.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Nevertheless, Manela still found a way to put in some demonic stuff, like a little bit by calling several local priests as character witnesses. But when he called them the judge, Judge Callahan said,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But before sending the jury out for deliberation, Judge Callahan did say to them they should only consider the evidence presented in court and ignore anything they may have known about the much publicized demon possession defense.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Exactly. Now despite the warnings, there was really no way that this jury wasn't going to be able to think about that a little bit. I was going to say that. It was months of like sensational coverage by the Warrens, by Manila.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The jury agreed and they went back to deliberate more and 16 hours later they found Arnie Johnson guilty of manslaughter. Not murder.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] To their belief that Arnie had possibly only intended to injure Alan and not actually kill him. Which when you look at it, it's a messy situation.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Who knows if that was the intent? It certainly didn't seem like it was planned out. No. It was certainly in a spur of the moment. Angry, violent confrontation that this happened, which doesn't excuse any of it, but it's a different situation than straight up first degree murder.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, Arne came back to court on December 18th, 1981 for sentencing, and Judge Callahan imposed the maximum sentence allowed under Connecticut state law, which was 10 to 20 years in prison.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Oh wow. Yeah, he said it was Arnie's lack of apparent remorse as his reasoning for imposing the maximum sentence. Oh, he didn't seem sorry? He said, I do not assume the powers of God, but you took a human life and you showed no acknowledgement of guilt and little remorse.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And as this was said, Debbie Glatzel shouted, that's sick! And then stormed out of the courtroom. Yeah, that is sick that you haven't shown any remorse. It's also sick to stab a man four times in the stomach and leave him to die. And it's also sick to call your dad instead of an ambulance for said guy. Yeah. But okay, Debbie.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, Manela apparently, he filed an appeal, of course, on the sentence. Uh, but in March 1982, the appeal was withdrawn at Arnie's request. Oh.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, Arnie's defense team released a statement saying Arnie didn't want to appeal and he consulted with his family and made the decision. Okay. So, I'll give a little bit of- I was gonna say.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] No longer confined by the restrictions of the Connecticut Superior Court


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The story of Arnie Johnson's supposed demonic possession definitely grew into a legend now.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] In 1983, Friends of the Warrens Gerald Brittle published The Devil in Connecticut, which was a, um, allegedly non-fictional account of the Johnson case. The book is interesting.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Her face says something. That same year, The Devil in Connecticut was adapted into The Demon Murder Case, which was a made-for-TV movie, which stars Clois Leachman, Kevin Bacon, and Andy Griffith. Oh shit. So that happened.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Arne Johnson begins serving his sentence in December 1981 at the Connecticut Correctional Institution in Summers, Connecticut.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] In January 1985, Arnie married longtime girlfriend Debbie Glatzel in a ceremony at the correctional institute.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Beautiful. Just two months later, Arnie was granted early release after serving only five years. Five fucking years. In January 1986, the parole board cited that he was a model prisoner, and that was the reason for his decision.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] In 2007, Carl Glatzel Jr., the third Glatzel child, and David Glatzel, who was the subject of the demonic possession, they filed a civil suit against Gerald Brittle and iUniverse Publishing.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Which the author admits in court documents is a quote, fictionalized account of David and Carl Glatzel's past lives. But it was being marketed as nonfiction.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Among other things, I guess the suit says that Brittle's book included considerable false and defamatory subject matter and unreasonably and seriously interfered with the plaintiff's interest in not having their private affairs known to others. Yeah.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now according to Carl, in the years following the trial, both he and David were


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Like they had a lot of difficulty in school. I would think so, yeah. They were like mocked, shunned, and later they had difficulty getting jobs because of all the notoriety that had come from this whole thing. That's fucked up. And it had also exacerbated, exasperated, excuse me, David's mental health issues. Of course. And he was, he was continuing to struggle.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And the civil suit also really like deepened the rift between Carl and David and the rest of the family.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Because David and Arnie maintain that the story from The Warns is entirely true. So there's two very different versions of this.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] There are real issues here that we would like to not continuously have to deal with. Yea, we'd like them to remain private. Yea, and David and Arnie are saying, cause like, obviously the details are already out and there's been several things about it, but they would just, they're like, I would like it to not be


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So Lorraine Warren also was very dismissive of Carl and David's civil suit. She said it was ridiculous. And she said the book was based on statements made by the children's parents. And she also cited the involvement of six unnamed priests as evidence of the book's legitimacy.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I feel for them. I do too. Cause like, that's really shitty. That is their life. Do you know whatever ended up happening to David?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, I do not, actually. I hope he's okay. I didn't look too far into it because I'm hoping he's living a very...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Normal or was able to live a normal and private life and you know, I'm just hoping that they at least could.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It's a really sad all around case. It's sad, it's strange, it's confusing. Yeah, you did a good job telling it though. I wasn't ever confused. Oh, thank you. I don't think Ed and Lorraine Warren helped this case at all. I think they caused a big mess and I don't like it.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It gives me gross feelings, I don't like it. It gives the yuck a taste in the mouth. Yeah. And I think a lot of people in the paranormal


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But, wow, yeaah, so that is the conjuring case, the devil made me do a case. Interesting case. It is a sad one, cause the other thing is too, when you look into Alan Bono, there's not a lot about him, you can't find a lot about his life, so.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And he was just, you know, managing a kennel, managing an apartment complex, his sister owned, he seemed like a friendly guy. I don't know about the reports of him grabbing the nine year old, I don't know what that's all about. Again, very alleged, we don't have any proof of it, but, you know, that's why you don't, everybody


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, like, I can't. Oh my god. But yeah. Wow. Well, that was a good one, and as always, we hope you keep listening. And we hope you keep it weird. Bye. Oh, but not so weird. Not any of that. Bye. Yeah, no.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] This case is a really sad one. It's gonna be in two parts because I want to do a little bit more to the second part and I think it's just a lot of information to take in.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, I don't know if you guys have heard about, you guys have probably heard about this case. I remember hearing about it briefly, but I didn't know the details. That's pretty much where I'm at. When I got into the details of it, I was like, holy shit, this family. I just want to like wrap my arms around this family because my goodness. This is so senseless and so fucked up. I know like part of the end and I


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And I've been in like this, like I had to like step away from it and I didn't help myself because this will be coming out like weeks after this happened, but like the whole submarine thing, the missing submarine. Yes. Like we don't have to get too far into it, but they just figured out that it was like a catastrophic implosion, which is just like wild.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And I've been super hyperfixated on every detail of this thing just because it's like fast- the ocean is-


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, starting to research like free diving as a competitive sport.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And then from there, which free diving is like you take a breath and you go down like 600 feet.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So once I started looking at freediving and I started becoming an expert on scuba diving and freediving because now I know everything.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I started rolling into, cause I got, suddenly I came across something that was like, oh, have you heard of the Nutty Putty Cave incident? And I was like, gut wrenching, excuse me. And I started looking into it.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I'm not gonna explain it to you here, because I'm going to cover it in an episode. Because the Nutty Putty cave incident and caves in general are...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] A whole different set of nightmares to me.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] No. Spelunking is not for me. Spelunking is a no for me dog. But The Descent was a great movie. I haven't seen it. But also did not help.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I just wanted to let you guys in on what I have been like obsessively telling Ash and John about for days. And Mikey. Mikey's also been privy to all of this. I walked in the house this morning and John was like, is she doing the same thing to you? And I was like, oh yeah, 100%.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But I know you guys are the same way. You've said that before. I've heard people message, they've messaged me before and been like, I do the same thing. Like I go crazy on things.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But this was one of those cases that I'm about to cover the first part of that I could not stop digging into because it's awful. Oh no.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] We always say like these, you know, the victims always, you're like, what the fuck, like they would have done.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So much in this world, and Denise is one of those people that you were just like...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And it just makes it all the more tragic. Like a light snuffed out, truly. So, I want to begin this whole thing by talking about Denise Huber.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Denise Huber was born November 22, 1967 in Modesto, California. She was the oldest child of two children, born to Dennis and Lone Huber.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Very quickly, she displayed a love of learning.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Real, real intelligence. Like when she wanted to learn something, she absorbed it all.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It's kind of funny that you were just talking about that. It kind of made me think of her because she seems like one of those people that just love to learn and would just eat up any kind of knowledge she could get. And she didn't just eat it up, she was able to absorb it and use it. She was just a really intelligent person. And she also loved making everyone around her laugh.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And was really, like, from a tiny age. She was like a tiny little stand-up comic for the adults in her life. Stop, that reminds me of one of yours. Yeaah, and she loved watching I Love Lucy and The Three Stooges.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And she was very athletic, really good at baseball. Oh cool. She sounds like such a cool girl.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And in 1973, her father Dennis Huber


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Accepted a new job as a mortgage officer with a bank in the San Fernando Valley.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So the family had to pack up and move. They did this a lot because he would have to be moved a lot for his job. Okay. Uhm, so they moved five and a half hours south and that was to, uhm, a neighborhood where they settled into a house in Northfield, which was a suburban community just outside of downtown LA.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now, the Hubers were religious, but not overly strict with their practice or beliefs. Uhm, and they just believed in the like, you know, the practice of it. And Denise and Jeff went to school at Valley Presbyterian School, where their mother actually worked as a teacher.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And Jeff later described this saying, Denise did very well and I got passing marks. We couldn't get away with very much with mom teaching there. So Denise continued to excel in her schoolwork and she really took pride in it. She took pride in being a good student.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And by the time Junior High rolled around, she was actually really interested in literature. And she just ate up books. She loved to write, she loved to read.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And she really fell in love with the work of James Harriot in particular.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And one of his works was a book called All Creatures Great and Small.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Denise eventually transferred to Los Angeles Baptist School in 7th grade and she stayed there until about the end of high school actually.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And according to her best friend in high school, Andrea Luden, I believe it's...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Um, Denise was still a tomboy through high school. She never really got out of that phase. Yeah.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And really started expressing more of her passions, like nature, she loved being outside, hiking. Hell yea. And she loved sports, especially. It sounds like she was so multi-faceted. She was, that's the thing. Cause when, like when you see her, she's like this cool tomboy girl, but she's like beautiful.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And like, she has this brilliant smile, she's really smart, she's really funny, she loves the outdoors, she's in the school, but she's also a bookworm.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] She hits everything on the list. She does, and she's a Sagittarius, so it makes sense that she's like an adventurer and like- Like a wanderer. Always wants to find new things. There you go. I think Sagittarius people are really cool. Yeah.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And she was also a star on the basketball and softball teams at school. Hell yeaah. Star player.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It honestly felt like she could excel pretty effortlessly at everything she tried.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And it's like, she made it look effortless, but it was just, she, she had natural abilities of course, but she really worked hard for stuff. Like she put in the work. And outside of school, Denise also loved the ocean and swimming.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Like speaking of the ocean, which, and she was a very strong swimmer. She had like really practiced at home. They had a pool at home and she made sure she was like, she was like, I could swim across the ocean if I wanted to.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now shortly after she entered her senior year at high school at Los Angeles Baptist, um, her dad, Dennis, actually his company wanted to transfer him to Richardson, Texas, which is a suburb of Dallas.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] They eventually agreed to allow Denise to remain in California for her final year of high school.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So and they agreed like we will absolutely take her for the year. That's amazing. And like what good parents to like make that decision even though they weren't necessarily comfortable with it. That's the thing. I'm sure it was really hard on both sides to be away from each other. Yeaah.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] They did what was best for the other person and like that, that's cool that they weren't, that they were able to like come to that decision. And have that kind of like love and respect for each other. That's the thing. It's a total, that seems like a respect thing. It is. Like the parent, like her parents respected her enough to be like, I understand where you're coming from. Yeah. And they came up with a solution and although it was hard and not ideal, they went with it. Yeah. And it worked out.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That's great. It worked out because after she graduated, she went to Texas and moved in back with her family. So like it all worked out.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, and so that just kind of shows you what kind of family this is and who these parents are.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And Denise then did two semesters at Junior College and then applied and garnered acceptance to Covenant College in Chattanooga, Tennessee.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] While there, she met someone who would become a very close friend of hers, Debbie Datar.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And Debbie later said about Denise, it was very easy becoming friends with Denise because she had such a bubbly personality and everyone liked her.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And their closeness led them to become roommates as well. They were rarely seen without the other and she said whenever I needed her, she would always be there.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now after two years at Covenant College, Denise went back to live with her family, who by then had actually moved back to Newport Beach, California because of another transfer for Dennis' company. Oh man, that must have been really stressful for him. I know. And Denise had no trouble, like,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Falling right back into Southern California life. Sweet. Uh, but once settled there, she didn't really know. She, she had wanted to be a veterinarian, but right now she was kind of like, I don't know. On the fence. I don't know if that's what I want to do.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] She had also been dating a young man named Steven Horrocks and was just settling in.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So she enrolled at the University of California in Irvine to finish out her degree, and she got a job as a waitress at the old spaghetti factory.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, and she continued working there until the summer of 1991.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] 1991 was the year that the Hubers would find their lives turned upside down.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] On Sunday, June 2nd, 1991, Denise had tickets to see Morrissey perform. Oh, so she's the coolest ever, is what we're saying. And he was performing at the forum in Inglewood.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And she had gotten two tickets weeks earlier for her and Steven, her boyfriend. And unfortunately, Steven couldn't get out of work to go at the last second.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And although Denise was bummed, of course, she offered that, cause he was like, give the ticket to someone else, like you take someone else. So she offered the second ticket to a co-worker of hers named Rob Calvert. She was friends with him, like they got along really well, and he was psyched to go with her, and later actually said about her, she was everyone's dream date.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And they didn't want to pay for all the stuff inside of the venue because it's crazy expensive. So they just drank vodka and orange juice in the parking lot before going inside. Oh my god, the amount of time. It's called pre-gaming. It's called pre-gaming.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And during the show Rob went and bought a 20 ounce beer for the two of them to share.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And now they had a fun, like, dancing, singing, having a great time. Yeah. Uhm, and they didn't want the night to end.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Just reliving a probably a great show. And after the bar had closed, Denise drove Rob back home, dropped him outside his apartment a little after 2am. Okay.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The next day, Lone Huber, her mom, discovered that Denise had not returned home.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So she was concerned, and she called her friend Tammy Brown to ask if she knew where she was.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And Tammy called around to their friends, including Rob Calvert, and none of them had seen or spoken to her since the night before.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, obviously this was very distressing to her parents and now to her friends too. Great. So later that evening, Tammy actually decided, her friend, decided to retrace the route that Denise and Rob would have taken to get to and from the forum in Inglewood. Wow, what a good friend. Yea. And now she's doing this around 10pm.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Tammy came across Denise's 1984 Honda Accord. It was pulled off to the side of the road.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But there was no sign of Denise still being there at all. So she was nowhere around and Tani went right to the Huber home, told them what she had found and they immediately called the police.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So Costa Mesa police officers were dispatched to the scene.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] There was no sign of a struggle or anything of that nature that they could tell. And looking around they saw that the area was well lit.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] There was several emergency call boxes around like within walking distance. Oh wow. So if an emergency had occurred, there was really no reason Denise wouldn't have been able to like quickly and easily call for help. Right.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, officers also noticed a large opening in like a chain link fence and it was bordering the freeway.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But it was behind, like there was like a gravel slope that led down to the street. Okay. Inside of this hole.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And basically you could have gone down there and gotten to several gas stations, hotels, restaurants, like somewhere to get help. Oh wow, okay.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So they looked at the whole scene and they were like, something just feels off here. Like where is she? What happened? Right.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So they were concerned that she didn't take any of these obvious avenues available for help, and then like, just sat back at her car.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And so days later, police captain Tom Lazar actually told reporters, we have feelings about these things and this one doesn't feel good. Oh no. So that night they brought sniffer dogs like bloodhounds and they were able to track Denise's scent several yards beyond where her car stopped. But then it just stopped.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Denise was not the only woman to go missing in the area that day.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So shortly before Denise disappeared, another woman had dropped her children off with her ex-husband and then just disappeared. So the next idea was that Denise maybe ran away.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That was like a pattern of behavior at all. She wasn't fighting with her parents. She wasn't, you know, like she had a boyfriend.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And detectives began investigating Denise's disappearance as a missing persons case.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But there was very little evidence to work with and almost no leads. It was just the car with nothing really to tell you about anything.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] They were able to trace her movements up until she pulled off the freeway, but after that it was like she just went poof. Like vanished. And just vanished.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And without anything else to go on, investigators tried to actually post a car near the area where Denise's car was discovered.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And the officer in this posted car just sat and wrote down license plate numbers of commuters that they saw. And then they later contacted these people to see if they had seen anything the day that Denise went missing because they take that road. Smart. So if they saw anything of note.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Meanwhile, Denise's parents started their own search campaign from their house in Newport Beach.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] They were calling Denise's friends, people she had known before, people in different, everywhere, states to try to talk to them and see if...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] They were just trying to get the word out that Denise was missing. Just get eyes on what was happening.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So from the moment that Denise was officially considered missing, the investigators were very honest and upfront with the Hubers about the likelihood of finding her.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Well, that's so awful to have to hear that and to have to deliver that news. Exactly. But they refused to accept that any odds were against them. In fact, her dad Dennis Huber told reporters, we have put the pressure on.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And in the three weeks since Denise had disappeared, her parents were working.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] 24-7 to keep everyone aware of this case. Calling television and radio shows. Raising reward money. Making and distributing thousands of flyers. They were talking to people. They were calling people. They were like everything they could do.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And after all their hard work, they did make stuff happen. Okay. Their commitment to their daughter and her case got them featured on America's Most Wanted. Oh, and that's exactly where they needed to be. The program started generating tips immediately and they actually as far away as like Pennsylvania and New Hampshire.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, the family also got a lot of psychics calling them and claiming to know where Denise was. Dennis is not, was not super into that part of it.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But he said, I don't put too much stock in that, but even though he didn't necessarily believe them, he always passed their information to the Costa Mesa police for follow up.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] They convinced the local chapter of the Adam Walsh Resource Center to aid in the search for Denise. Holy shit. And the thing is, this organization typically works on cases of missing children. Right. But in the case of Denise, they were willing to make an exception, and Denise was 23 years old. Oh wow. Yeah.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And the center director, Lynn Day said, she's still their daughter, she's still their child. Oh, that's true, absolutely.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now the search continued throughout the summer, and by September, nothing was really coming up. No investigators were not close to finding Denise. My god, that must have been the longest summer of their entire lives. And even after all they had done, like the America's Most Wanted, the Adam Walsh Resource Center, like


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] They did all the right, they put out all the flyers, they did the searches, and they weren't finding anything. It's like she just disappeared. It's so scary that that can happen. It's so scary. And the attempt to contact commuters on the Corona Del Mar freeway


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That produced several tips, but according to Detective Jack Archer, quote, all the ones we've got in, they've either been the wrong week or the wrong location. Cause it's hard. Yeah, I don't remember any days that I'm driving. I wouldn't be able to help. We've said that before.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, and the lack of new leads, any information, any, anything moving forward was really discouraging for investigators.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Detective Archer told reporters, unfortunately that's what history has shown, but you can't give up hope. We've got to keep working on everything. If we're fortunate, we'll find her.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now the Hubers really kept hope alive that they would find Denise, but they were also really disappointed with the lack of progress that was happening. I would think so. Lone, her mother actually told the LA Times, I know the police are still working on things, but nothing really solid has come up.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] They are never really very specific about anything, but they do say they're working on leads. And that's hard too because the hubers aren't getting a lot of information or communication because a lot of times victims' families get shut out of these things. Yeaah. A lot of times.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And by the fall, the Hubers had actually managed to raise $10,000 as a reward fund from private donations. Wow, the fact that they did that just like themselves is incredible. And I mean, the story was in the news, it was on national programs like Inside Edition, it was everywhere.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And even despite their best efforts, leads were nowhere to be found. Nowhere.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] In early September, Dennis actually had to return his job at the bank, too.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But he found it incredibly difficult to work. How do you go back and just work? Just had to go back and do, like just had to go back to regular life. And Lone actually said she was nowhere ready to return back to work. She told one reporter that she was quote, just kind of existing, taking one day at a time and surviving.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I, exactly, that's the thing. It's like, how do you put your mind elsewhere?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And be able to perform like you did before at your job. Exactly, like nothing's important anymore. No.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Like nothing would feel important at all. No, everything would feel actually so much less important. And once it became October and the investigation had pretty much stalled at this point, just hit a wall. The Hubers hired a private detective.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Named Logan Clark who they were hoping that maybe just a different set of eyes could look at it from a different angle. Yeah, fresh set. And the, so the theory that had developed from the investigators in the case was that Denise had pulled off the road when her tire blew out and she was abducted by a stranger as she walked possibly to the call boxes.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now this would account for why the dogs lost her scent right near her car.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But Logan Clark, the uhm, special, the private investigator.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He thought something totally different. He said that Denise was not a victim of random circumstance.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He said that she was abducted by someone she knew, in his opinion. And why did he think that? He said she was abducted somewhere other than where her car was found and he believed that she had been murdered and that her abductor abandoned the car on the side of the road.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He thinks that they were making it look like this was the crime scene, so they would only focus on this scene and never look somewhere else. I mean, it does kinda seem that way now that you say that. He was quoted as saying if it happens to be the wrong scene of the crime, they'll never solve it. Right.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Based on something that like was a little tenuous, he was based on a gap in time between when Denise dropped Rob Calvert off at 2.05am and the earliest report of her car being seen by commuters on the freeway.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Which is a little after 5am. That's like a gap. Oh, that's a big window. It was during that time gap that he thought that Denise was abducted and murdered, and then the car was dumped on the freeway, later to be found by Tammy Brown.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Detectives said that they welcomed his cooperation in the search but they stopped a little short of confirming any of his assertions. Okay.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Sergeant Ron Smith told reporters, my approach is to not go chase theories, but to concentrate on facts and keep an open mind to all possibilities. Yeah, I mean, yeah, that's the best thing you can do. Exactly.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now as the months went by, leads were becoming fewer and fewer at this point. It was like this happened and then nothing. After this theory, there was nothing to back either one up.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And it was starting to look less and less like they were going to find Denise alive.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Endless searching, media appearances, family and friends like helping everything. They were still rallying around the Hubers.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And they were still as determined as ever to find her. They were not resting. It's not like they were just resting and being like, well, we haven't found her, so we have to like, just go back to our lives. Cause you can never go back to your life. They were going back to their responsibilities as best as they could, but they were.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Dead set on this. This was their main focus. And Denise's co-worker actually said, as long as you don't know, you can't say that a person is dead. But it's like giving up if we say Denise isn't alive.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So Costa Mesa detectives kept pursuing any of the now fewer and fewer leads that were just trickling in at this point. But it was really getting tough because they were hitting a lot of dead ends each time. And in disappearances like Denise's, there's usually some evidence if there is a homicide,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Or like sometimes as an attempt to extort the family for money or just anything, there was just virtually


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] No evidence in this. It's like banished. And that must have been maddening for her parents. Truly. Maddening. You just want one thing. Just something. Anything. But Sergeant Ron Smith remained committed to finding Denise and remained committed to the idea that she didn't disappear voluntarily. He was like that because people kept going back to that.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That must have been so frustrating, especially when you know your child. Yeaah. And you know your family member. That's the thing. And luckily this guy, Sergeant Ron Smith said,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Everyone pretty much sees her as an innocent victim in this. There's a high emotional involvement on the part of detectives.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So for his part, the private investigator Logan Clark and his team of private investigators kind of gave up at this point.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Their theory that Denise was abducted and probably killed by acquaintances, uhm, was also


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Connected to them saying that he she was probably killed by acquaintances in the rock music industry.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He just turned the case back over to detectives and was like, I'm good. That's the thing, because I was like, well, what makes him think it was someone she knew? Like, what is telling you that? I think it was, to be honest, and this is just me speculating, I think it was like he was looking at what the police were doing and saying, what is the exact opposite?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But later during the trial, his theory, which again relied very heavily on that time gap of 2 to 5 a.m., it was further undermined because a newspaper delivery person testified that she saw Denise's car on the side of the road at 2.25 a.m.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Oh wow, so she went missing 20 minutes after dropping him off.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And you made him sound like he was good, so. So as one year turned into two, the leads had become


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] She told the LA Times, whatever's gonna happen to me is gonna happen.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And she said of the breast cancer in comparison to what we've been through, it's no major thing.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And it was, it was a tough journey and she found herself, it was an emotional toll that was a very harsh reminder that their beloved daughter Denise was not there for this, like was not there to be an emotional support, a comfort, you know.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And her kind and loving voice was silent and something like this made it even more apparent. Because they said she was, she made people feel better.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Like I wanted her there to make me feel better. I mean she was a caretaker, she wanted to be a veterinarian.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And Lone said, as time goes on, I realized Denise is probably not alive. Just to know and not have to wonder, constantly wonder what happened would be easier to handle than this mystery. Yeah, because your mind fills in the blanks. With the worst. Exactly. I was just going to say our minds are the scariest thing we have. Unfortunately, in this case, the reality is probably worse than what her.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Mind could come up with. Now more than a year after this would pass before the mystery of Denise's disappearance would be brought to light. And the story was more heartbreaking and bizarre than anyone could have imagined.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now on a hot afternoon in early July, Elaine Canalia and Jack Court had an appointment with a man named John, who was supposed to be selling them some paint colorant.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So they drove out to a new housing development in Dewey, Arizona to meet him for this paint.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Eileen had actually met John several weeks earlier at an outdoor market and that's when they like got to talking.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And he told them that he had some product back at his house that he wanted to get rid of.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And if they were interested in coming by to see it, he had it for sale. This is just what they did. Like, you know.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] There wasn't anything specific she said that made her like a little uneasy. Just a gut feeling. She said it was just a weird feeling that something about the situation was off. Always listen to your gut. But they carried on and when they got there, John led the couple back to the back of the house where he had a large rider truck, like a rider rental truck.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Parked out back, and it was covered a little bit by a blue tarp. Creepy. And around it were unlabeled paint cans.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And they noticed that there was also an extension cord running from the back of the truck into the house.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] What? So immediately they were freaked out. They were like, this is just a little fucking weird. But Elaine was like, you know what? Let's get these fucking paint cans, let's get them in the truck, let's leave. Right.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So they do, and as they're pulling out of the driveway, Elaine noticed that the rider truck had what she originally thought were Massachusetts plates. Oh shit. And although it was, you know, it was common that a moving truck would have plates from out of state. Yeah.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Renters have to return the vehicle to the company when they're done with it. That truck looked as though it had been there for several months. Huh.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] She's like, that was not a new truck, like that was sitting in that spot for a long time. So like, she's like, did he steal this? And I guess when they got in there, Jack said, I'll bet the doggone thing is stolen. And I guess he said it like very like off the cuff. Right. And apparently they had dealt with some theft recently.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So Elaine was like sensitive, she was like, that causes a lot of stress and aggravation being a victim of theft, so like.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I'm gonna help these people out. So she grabbed a piece of scrap paper and she jotted down the license plate number of the truck.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now once they were back at the warehouse in Phoenix, she dropped the paper on a desk and kind of forgot about it a little bit, because she went back to like working and all that. But a few days later, a friend of theirs, who happened to be a detective with the Phoenix police- Oh shit.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] How kismet and insane. And she trusted that gut. She said something's not right about this. I'm going to write down the information. Maybe it's nothing, but maybe it's something.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Proof and evidence that you should always trust your fucking gut. Yeah. So Elaine passed the information to Detective Steve Gregory.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Who later followed up with the local writer agency to see what was up with this.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now at first the agent at Ryder was like, yeah, I don't have any information about that. Like, I don't know what you're talking about. So Detective Gregory was like, can you just double check?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] If this is one of yours. So a few hours later, the agent called back and said, actually that vehicle had gone missing. It was stolen from Orange County, California.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And Deputy Joe DeGiacomo, I believe it's how you say it, was dispatched to investigate the truck and speak to the man named John, who was the homeowner. Yeaah. So Deputy DeGiacomo.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I don't wanna like unnecessarily disturb a family if I don't need to.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So he called Detective Gregory and like reiterated the information.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And he was like, and Gregory asked what we all probably are asking right now.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Wasn't it possible that whoever stole the truck had switched the plates? Like that could also be possible? Yeah. Or she got it wrong? Like Maryland, Massachusetts? Yeah, similar. So did Giacomo was like, yeah, that's probably a pretty decent possibility. Cause he was like, should I bother these people? Like you didn't think this is it?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So he went to the property and he checked the VIN number on the truck and it did match for the vehicle stolen in Orange County. There you go.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now with another sheriff's deputy by his side, DeGia Como came up to the house and knocked on the door, but no one came to the door. Okay. Now he looked around the property and he was like, huh.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] They both thought that this could maybe be some kind of like drug lab or some other like hub of illegal activity because it was very run down and covered in empty paint cans and a lot of debris. It just to them, it looked like there was something weird going on here. It's giving meth lab. Cause they also didn't know like that he had anything to do with painting or


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Who arrived at the house around 1.15 in the afternoon and they found no evidence of drug related chemicals or paraphernalia when they went.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But the truck appeared as though it was there for months. Okay. And the extension cord coming from the back of it suggested that there was something weird going on in there. Yeah, like what the fuck is that about? Unfortunately, the back of the truck had a padlock on it as well. So they needed to wait for a warrant to get into it.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Investigators found a large number of paint cans, other contracting materials.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] They followed that extension accord and they found a large chest freezer pushed all the way back to the back of the cab and it was on. The freezer also had a padlock on it.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And there were tons of pieces of heavy tape placed at the point where the lid met the top of the freezer, the bottom of the freezer. That's fucking weird. That's not suspicious at all. And sorry, is the chest one, it's like the long, like horizontal one? Gotcha.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So they carefully remove the tape and Detective Mike Garcia opened the freezer.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So, Detective Garcia gently reached inside and felt along the outside of the bag.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now, immediately additional officers and a forensic team were called to the scene to help with this whole thing.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And while officers were trying to get anybody from inside the home because they felt like somebody was in there. And clearly not answering on purpose. Yeaah. Others were removing the contents of the freezer and cutting away the black garbage bags.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] After opening the bags, they unfortunately revealed the nude body of Denise Huber. Her hands were secured behind her back with metal handcuffs. Oh my god.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] With the body removed from the freezer, they could also see what was quote, apparently frozen blood, body fluids, and ice crystals on the floor of the freezer.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The frozen fluids and lack of any blood spatter anywhere else they could see suggested that whatever happened here happened somewhere else and she was placed in here. Right. Kinda later after she was killed. Okay.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Also, Denise's body did show some signs of decomposition, which indicated that she had been dead for at least a few hours before she was placed in the freezer.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And the truck and all of its contents were towed to a forensic lab in Phoenix and Denise's body was taken to the medical examiner's office for autopsy. And she'd been missing for years at this point. Yea, she was in that freezer. This was three years at this point.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] What the fuck is this person keeping her in a freezer for three years? So they did come to the conclusion that no one was inside the house at the time.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And so they went next door to talk to the neighbors and they confirmed that the truck had shown up about six months earlier.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And while they had seen a man going in and outside the house, they didn't know his name.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So officers ran the plates on the white Dodge parked alongside the rider truck.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And it belonged to John Fomolaro. Okay. Just as they received that information,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] John pulled into the house. It was probably shitting himself. Oh yea, and a jeep driven by his mother.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Oh my god. And that's where we're gonna leave you for part one. You're fucked up. I would like to tell you that part two...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Is, uh, I mean, this is very disturbing anyways, but we're gonna go into the autopsy stuff and what happened to Denise is fucking awful. So. And it doesn't seem like she knows this person. No.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] This is a devastating story. Wow. This is a real tough one. I knew about the freezer, but I didn't know all the strange logistics. Nope. Like why did it just show up there six months earlier?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The whole thing is like so upsetting. And bizarre. And when you find out more about, you know, there's a lot of things that were found in his house, like he kept a lot of connections to this. Really? Like a lot of trophies, a lot of, yeah. And do we know, can I ask, is this the only person that we know that he's killed? I think, yeah, I believe so. Wow.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, it hasn't been a great day, but you know what, uhm, this probably won't make it better, because I'm sure it's a very sad tale. It is. So there's that. But you guys are here, and that's exciting. Duty calls. I can feel your presence here. And you, you, it makes me happy. Yay. You know?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Love and positivity. And also, Mikey made lemon, uh, champagne cupcakes and they are literally the yummiest thing I have ever put in my face. They are really fucking good. You can't have the recipe. No, I'm just kidding. You can't have them. You can't have the recipe.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] They're delicious and refreshing and I'm sorry that you're not eating one right now. Me too.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You know, like it happens. It happens. It happens. Everything's okay. We just have like family stuff going on. Yeah, we're fine. You know, but we're okay. We're fine. We're gonna be just fine.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Good for her. This sounds great so far, which is really upsetting me.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Oh yea, you're always saying that Sagittarius, uh, humans just want to get out of here.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I was just looking at pictures of her, she is so beautiful. Oh my god, she's gorgeous. Ugh, it's like, ugh, it just kills me. It's so sad. And I'm just like feeling the panic for her loved ones here, especially on her birthday.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That's so wild to me because I think about it. I could never tell you if I saw somebody or not.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, I just think about it and I'm like, if somebody put up a picture of somebody and they were like, did you see this person in Boston yesterday? I'd be like, I don't fucking know. I have no idea. Maybe.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Because they were just having a good date. Yeah. That's what's so scary about this. Like he wasn't, this sounds like it was just...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You would have no way of knowing. No, absolutely no way. You're just having a good date, you're just texting your friend about your good date, like, and it's also like dude, like it's even scarier cause you're like, did he know that she was texting her friend? And it's like,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] If you knew that she was texting people, like if you, like she's connecting with people as this is happening.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That they had this like violent whatever sex. And that when they were done, he just got up and went into the shower.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] She was dead. Yes. But he just- But he didn't realize it. He didn't notice that. Yeah. Yeah.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That, yep, that makes so much sense that you would just get up after having sex with someone and not realize that you had killed them in the process. Yeah.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You would know. If you killed someone like that, you would know. And also, it takes a long time to manually strangle someone, my guy. We'll see exactly how long. And it takes a long time with consistent pressure. She would be showing.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Literally nothing. That is the stupidest fucking, like, story I've ever heard in my life.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Well, once again, we're, we're doing great with the, uh, not suspicious


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Nope, I think you were just looking to make sure that you had some, some little paper trails here, there and everywhere to make sure that you were like, what? I was just talking to my friend. I wasn't, I wouldn't be doing that after I killed someone.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It's horrifying to look at, because you're just looking at that being like, grace is in that. Yes, she never left that.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Oh yea, and if you, they have pictures online of the Luminol.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] This is why that's like the stupidest fucking story he could have told.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Five to ten minutes of sustained, strong pressure.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Full blown in every gener- like every direction you could possibly reach, piece of absolute garbage. Garbage. Yeah.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I wish there needs to be like a central place where people can report. Yeah.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] This stuff about specific people. I know, I don't know how that works. I wonder if I don't know anything about dating apps because that was like way out of my time of dating, but like. I wasn't on them long enough to luckily have to report anybody. I feel like there should be like some central place at each point.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] At each site that like, yea, you can report a profile and they should.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, there needs to be a very specific and it needs to be a fucking, like, put the hammer down kind of thing. Seriously.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But it makes you even, it makes you further realize that the internet and like social media and stuff is so fucking toxic now and the grid needs to just crash.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Because even, like, it's the same thing as when you meet someone in a bar. You don't know that person. No. They're brand new to you. So if you give your number to them, it's essentially the same thing. But something about the internet makes, like, the more nefarious aspects of it.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Exactly, that's exactly what it is. It's like they can cater themselves to, it's honestly a bad person's kind of...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Oh yeah, for sure. So I would just like hide in a bunker somewhere. We're too, we're too deep now. Yeah, far too deep. But, one can dream.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, it's like one of those things where I think it's, they, they don't want those things being part of the new trial kind of thing. But like being. I hate that shit because it's like, I'm sorry if you're a terrible person and a rapist.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, we should be able to take that into consideration when looking at how you, uh, murdered a woman in a hotel room. Yeah.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It's very strange. The justice system is weird. It's very strange.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That's so crazy. I like, I never thought of the fact that like somewhere like New Zealand would even have that be a thing. Yeah. Like an adult, their name could be kept out of it. Interesting.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Let me just get this straight. He's, uhm, drunk. And how do you spell that? Ready? Uh, W-A-I-T-A-K-E-R-E.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Okay, so you're, we're being very serious when we say that he is drunk and searching that particular place.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Okay. Yep. Okay. Mmhm. Yeah, and when, you know what, when I'm, when I've had a few drinks, the first thing that I think of is like, ugh, I wonder if there's fleshy-eating birds out there.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That's literally all I think about when we go on a hike. I'm like, I hope there's no flesh-eating birds around because they're so common. What? Wow.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] What? Wow, and it's just a coincidence that you buried her body out there, huh? Just a coincidence. Just a coincidence. So weird. Crazy. I know, it looks, it looks so bad. Totally.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Imagine going home and laying your head down on the pillow at night after doing that to a dead girl. No I wouldn't.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Like this is fucked up that they're pretending that this is anything to do with her sexual preferences.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Her family, this is what kills me with this shit, cause it's like this girl got fucking murdered after going on a date. And now her family is sitting there and she gets to have all of her shit laid out.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And these people just get to go up there and talk about her however they want to and talk about her sex life and say that she liked this. Like, you don't know. You have no idea. You don't know these fucking men either. Like, you don't know any of them.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It's so fucked up. It's like, how you can do that to a girl?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Who has been murdered is beyond me. Beyond, but they did, and they did it up until- To try to do it to get this guy off too, that's what's wild to me. Who you know killed her.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] No, when I'm stressed, I like, I knock things over, I trip.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, you don't Google weird shit. I don't, I don't kill someone, look at porn, and then take photos of it. Take photos of their dead body.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] They've shown a pattern that he's the one who likes doing that. She is interested in BDSM, obviously, but it's showing, like he's making it seem like, oh, she wanted me to do that. I just, I was, I was so wholesome. I had no idea how to do this. He has a longer history than she does. You have a long history of doing this.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Oh thank goodness, okay, you took a second and looked at me and I was like, if you fucking tell me. I just like to see where you are. I will be very angry.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And in fact, I'm pretty sure that the reason this was probably brought up after this case is because it is such a safe place.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, there you go. Yeah, perfect. Or have your friend just like go on a date with her.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Her significant other. At the same. At the same place as you. Just so they can keep an eye. Yes. Love that. Follow you. Yes. You know? I love that. I like that a lot.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It's giving me like, um, now and then vibes.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Oh, that's crazy. So imagine she like realizes it later and she's like, he hadn't even killed anybody yet, but he was like, that might have been like working in his mind at that point.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Alright, so it says that time I stole the Taco Bell name tag from the guy I sat behind in high school government class to pin on my backpack and he ended up robbing and murdering someone. Wow, that's like a series of events I never would have put together. I hate that Taco Bell had to make its way into that because I love Taco Bell.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Taco Bell time. Let's go. But this person stole somebody's Taco Bell name tag, not their delicious treats. It says, hey weirdos, I'll start with the obligatory gushing about how much I love your podcast. Thank you.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I found you in the last year and love listening to you girls as I get ready in the morning while doing laundry, driving by myself, and really any other time I can get far enough away from my 7 and 10 year old so that I won't traumatize them. Just yet.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And it's been my experience that true crime, sorry, that true crime type shows and podcasts are a stress relief for educators. Not sure what that says about our psyche, but I go with it. Well, you guys are going through it.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I just got done listening to your listener tales, that time I met a murderer, and realized I too have met a murderer.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] When I was in high school and, excuse me, when I was in high school I hung out with some rather, shall we say, sketchy people. We've all been there. It was one of those, my high school boyfriend was kind of on the edge and hung out with people who pretty much off the edge, so I hung out with them by proxy. Sort of thing.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You know, that thing. Yeah, that. My boyfriend ended up a great guy and is now a contributing member to society. Woo!


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But for context, his high school best friend was murdered a few years ago in a sketchy situation. But that's actually another story. We need that one too.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I had, I sort of had two personas. One me that got almost straight A's was first chair saxophone in band, rarely broke curfew, and was a Girl Scout. For real. Whoa. I love that it was like, for real. I really was. I'm not lying to you. I had the badges. How many badges? I want to know. Do you still have any Thin Mints on?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And then there was the other me that hung out in a back parking lot on the weekends, smoked behind my parents' back. I later found out that they knew all along. Parents, am I right? They always know. They always know. And they always tell you later I do that whole time. Oh yeaah. I've gotten a lot of those. Oh yeaah.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So anyways, one of my boyfriend's best friends, aforementioned guy who got murdered, his friend, sat by me in my government class. This was after my high school boyfriend and I broke up, but we were, we were all still friends. So a friend of a friend would flirt with me some, and even though I really didn't like him that way, he did always strike me as a bit creepy. I would start to flirt back because, high school girl.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Out of all the guys in this group, he was always the one that gave me the weirdest feeling. Trust your gut people. It's true. He just started working at Taco Bell and would wear his name tag to school sometimes, just to be weird I guess.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Alright, so he was wearing his name tagged to school, very strange.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, that's exactly what it says. Well his name tag was in the shape of a jalapeno pepper and I just thought that was funny. So we made some kind of trade. I now don't remember at all the actual circumstances, but I ended up with the actual name tag pinned to my backpack.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now fast forward about a year from graduation. I'm a freshman in college doing my own thing and have pretty much forgotten about Taco Bell Name Tag Guy. I get a phone call from my mom and she's like, do you remember Taco Bell Name Tag Guy? She obviously said his actual name of course.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I was like, yeah, why? Well apparently, he and this couple...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, they were using some kind of drugs, broke into an older gentleman's house to rob him.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] They thought he wasn't home or something, but it turned out he totally was home. So Taco Bell name tag guy stabbed him to death before they all ran out to get to the getaway car driven by a guy I also went to high school with that was actually a pretty good kid.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He apparently got in too deep with these jerks. The couple that was with him were quite a bit older than us, and I did not know them. I mean, I always knew he was a little bit creepy, but I never thought murderer type creepy.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So needless to say, when I came across my backpack with his name tag on it, I got some serious goosebumps. And the more I listen to your podcast, the more I'm thinking, should I burn that backpack and sage my parents' attic, you know?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Anyway, that's my, I also met a murderer story. I'm also going to put a couple links to true crime stories that happened in or are related to my hometown in case you ever wanted to do an episode on any of them. Wow, thanks. Cause even in rural Missouri, crazy stuff like this happens.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Thanks if you made it this far in my story and keep it weird, but not so weird that you break into a guy's house and stab him to death, okay? Yeah. P.S. I have attached adorable pics of my kids and fur babies. Oh my goodness, the cutest of all. Babies everywhere. Yeah, really cute.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah. That is not being an idiot. It's also one of those things where like, what are you gonna do in that situation?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He's a wanted murderer. Is that his like previous victim's makeup? Oh my. Plot twist. Right? Oh my.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Let me see, let me see. Share with Bailey. Look at that.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But Ireland will not send him over to France, like they won't extradite him because I think they don't think he did it.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] No idea. I did an episode about it like a couple of months ago. Only it was like a one part and then I think there was like a Netflix documentary about it at one point.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That was the thing, like, it didn't seem like there was one but whoever killed her, she was brutally brutally attacked.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Scared out of confessing or like they did confess and then they were intimidated. Of course. It's crazy. So it's one of those.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It says, okay, so I was just listening to the That Time I Met a Murderer episode, and it completely unlocked my experience from deep within the vault. More of an, oh, haha, that happened kind of thing. Picture it. Defiance, Ohio, summer 2004.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I was freshly graduated from high school and desperate for that first tattoo.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So I popped into a shop town, with not a stitch of research done mind you. It was a different time.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] We didn't have the internet in our hands with reviews and all that jazz. Anywho, Dude Man says he can do it and come back at blank time. So I go around, uh, my best friend for support.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Her sweet, sweet, uh, mom tried hard to talk me out of it. Something we would joke about for years after.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Anyhoo, we got there and the guy kinda gets me all set up. Bet you can't ever in a million years guess what 18 year old Courtney got. Why yes, a butterfly on my lower back.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So now he's in for life. Damn. And then they attach the link for us.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Please share the next time you do a meta-murderer episode. I would lose what cool is left in my 36 year old self.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You gals are awesome and I've grown to love and depend on your podcast. I always listen while I'm opening up my bar at work and it helps me get past the, ugh, I'm at work feeling. Aww, thank you.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I've never been to California. You haven't? Only when I was like a little baby and I don't remember it.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yes, just channel your inner New England Aries Italian woman. Yes. Yup, that one listener's grandma. Do it!


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It is. I did that thing where I almost said, hi, I'm Alena. Hi, I'm Alena. Just, hey, I'm Alena. That's it. That's, that's, that's- Welcome. That's the, that's, that's, that's the- Whoa.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Just trying to help you out there for a second. Just taking a sip of her iced coffee so she's like, you keep talking.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Keep going. Don't you let anyone hear me swallow that ice coffee. Oh god, I hate when- I hate the thought of people like hearing me chew or swallow or anything. It's true. Uhm. I don't like mouth noises.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But here we are, it's morbid. I have a pretty tough one today.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But yeaah. Maybe before we start, I'll just quickly say there's a TikTok account that you guys should follow. Oh, she's good at that. Listen to me. Yeaah, I haven't done it in a while. Yeaah, you haven't. TikTok recommendation corner with Alina. Who's up? Oh, there's two actually. Whaaat? Two? So, uh, my first is like for all, especially parents out there. Oh, is it? Annalee. Yeaah. Annalee. A-N-A-L-E-E.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] She's hilarious. She's like the realest parent account. She is. You will follow. I feel like even if you don't have kids, but like you want kids or like you're involved in kids' lives in a big way, then you'll love her. She's a great follow. Yeah, she's a great follow. I highly suggest it. Very entertaining, very sweet. And every time I watch her videos, I'm like,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Can we hang out though? Like can we be mom friends? I would really like to be, so Annali if you're listening, can we be mom friends? Can you guys be mom friends and then I can be like your non-mom friends for a little bit? I want that. And Annali and a bunch of other TikTok moms hung out.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] They're doing awesome things, and I highly suggest supporting the shit out of them. I agree. Who was the other person that you were gonna shout out? So the other one is, if you're feeling, you know, if you're feeling witchy,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Or if you're interested in witchiness, there's an account called Down the Witch's Way. Oh hell yea, we literally just did one of their stuff. Yea, and he has the most soothing voice, my goodness. Couple of books. He has a couple books that I have. I purchased them because he is that good. And he's just, you know, he's a delightful human to


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Watch his TikToks. And I think he needs more followers, so. I agree. Go take a peek at it if you're feeling like you want some easy little, you know, spells or you just wanna...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Listen to a soothing man tell you wonderful things. This man is it. You can do that. Down the witch's way.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So good. I love his spells. And then the mom that I was just talking about uhm, is at


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Very good accounts to follow that'll just make you smile. Exactly. Make you laugh. If you're looking for a laugh or looking for a smile or looking to learn some things, those are some good pages, so. They're gonna cast a fucking spell.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So you know, so do it. Just do it. Just do it. I was thinking of the, does anybody remember the video where the little boy was like, so do is it. Just do is it. I can't find that video anywhere now. And we remember we used to say it all the time. You showed me it.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But yeaah, those are a little internet recommendations of the hour. And now that we've brought you up, we're gonna bring you right down.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I don't know this one, so I am totally in the dark. I also hadn't heard of this one, uhm, a couple people requested it, so I said, sure beans, totally. Sure beans. And then me and Dave started working on it and we were like, wow.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, like mental health things that I'm gonna plug at the end, so definitely stay tuned for those outlets. Okay.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So we're gonna be talking about Hayward Bissell today and the murder of Patricia Buer. It is a particularly gruesome one, so just please be warned. So Hayward William Bissell was born March 28th, 1962 in New London, Ohio.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, I think I had said you did like an Ohio case recently. And I was like, oh my god, my next one is Ohio. Oh yeaah.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But I ended up doing something before that. So this is the Ohio one? Yeah, this is the one I was talking about.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But Hayward was the second of three children born to Howard and Magdalena, better known as Maggie Bissell.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Altogether though, there were four children in the house actually because Maggie had brought a son from her previous marriage. Now Howard, he spent almost 20 years serving in the US Army before finally getting discharged and that's when the family settled down in Ohio. Okay.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now once they were kinda settled, he went to work at the Ford plant in Sandusky.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And from the sounds of it, Maggie stayed at home and raised the kids, and I'm sure she definitely had her hands full.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And she definitely did, actually, because by most accounts, Hayward was a pretty difficult child from an early age. A family member recalled his childhood and told reporters,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He was always griping. He griped as a child, and he griped as an adult.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And it was probably for that very reason that it made it really difficult for him to hold down a job. The family later said, he abhors work and avoids working.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Wow. And his attitude made it so that he was constantly involved in some kind of conflict, some kind of argument, always had an issue with somebody.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And that person usually for like the first half of his life was his father. Their relationship for


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Probably that reason and I'm sure many others was very very strained. Uhm, there was a lot of different reports about


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Hey words childhood, but a lot of them were kind of unreliable because they all said different things. But that speculation does make a bit of sense that there was issues with the father.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And one relative wondered if Hayward's behavioral problems could have come from, or at the very least been exacerbated by,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Quote, a couple of minor accidents as a child that might have resulted in concussions. Eee, that's always...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] A trigger, I feel. Yeah, but I mean he must have been growing up in what the...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] What that did or what that could do. I mean, up until very recently, they would tell you to wake the kid up every hour when they hit their head. Right. And now they tell you something totally different. Oh, I didn't even realize that. Yeah, that changed as well. Like, obviously, I'm sure there's different things, but like,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] They tell you to like, just make sure that they rouse correctly, but you don't need to wake them up.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The mental illness that kind of plagued his life afterwards and especially when he was an adult.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I think could have started in early childhood. Yeah, there certainly could have been a correlation. You know. Who's to say?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So, by the time he reached high school, Hayward had a reputation as a difficult and


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Had he gotten help, I don't think this story would have played out the way that it did. It's very sad.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But the thing was, if he was interested in the subject, he would actually do pretty well in the class, but if he didn't care or wasn't interested in the subject,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He would just mess around, he would distract people in the class, and he'd end up failing or just getting kicked out.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So he ended up dropping out after his sophomore year, which probably had something to do with his increasingly heavy drug use and alcohol abuse around that same time.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And that's another thing that I think again exacerbated the issues that probably were already there, for sure.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now in 1979, when he was 18, he enlisted in the army. And at first he was stationed in Cleveland, Ohio, but he did eventually get transferred to Germany, which is weird. Oh yeah, they killed Matheny.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You were just talking about that and he probably didn't get stationed in Germany. Yeah, we don't think he did at least. Heyward did. Oh, that's wild. And Joe Matheny's childhood was very like,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I'm not sure exactly what happened because there's different reports too. Yeah, it's interesting. Yeah. And they are both very, they end up both being very brutal people. Yeah, exactly. Um, but it was there in Germany that he trained as, this is really cool in my opinion, a motor transport operator and, um, and a rifleman.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But strangely enough, Heyward, he didn't seem to struggle with authority as much when he was in the army. I don't know if...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I don't really know why that was. Yeah, that's strange, but who's to say? Who's to say? I don't know if it was just one of those things where he was like, I have to do this, I don't really have a choice, so I just gotta get through it and I might as well.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I think it was probably all the structure involved. I think if there's structure, that tends to help.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Would it have stopped you? Would it not have? Like what would have taken to put you on the right path? Is there a right path for you? Like, you know, like these kinds of things are always just like, huh. It's one of those things where you can argue nature. You can argue nurture. It's all speculation. They're both at play. Yeah. It's all speculation.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But anyways, in 1985, Hayward was actually honor- honorably discharged, and he went back home to Ohio, where he got a job working as a security guard at a factory in Toledo, which is really fun to say. Toledo. Toledo.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, he got another gig after that working at the Fanny Farmer Candy Factory in Norwalk.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Her name was Sherry Brown, and they got married very quickly. And after they got married, they moved to Norwalk, Ohio, and a year later they had a child together, a daughter named Crystal.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Um, trigger warning coming up for domestic violence. Ooh.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The newlywed period where you're just happy to be husband and wife and everything is beautiful, a la-dee-da-doo, it did not last long for them.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Just one year after Crystal was born, Hayward started verbally and physically abusing Sherry.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That's fucked up. Which like, I can't imagine you just have a baby with someone you think you're in love with and then that's when they start being cruel to you, like that's when the facade drops. That's awful. But things actually got so bad that she filed for and was awarded a restraining order, excuse me, against Hayward.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But she ended up dropping the order just eight days after it was granted and she did go back. I'm sure she was very scared. Yea, of course. You never know those situations. No.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And according to her brother, Leonard, the abuse only got worse after the restraining order was lifted. He told a reporter from the Sandusky Register, I know he was very dominating, speaking about Hayward, he made my sister eat food from the floor like a dog. Oh my god. He beat her. He used to do lots of weird stuff.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And what's really sad is during this time, her own family was having a hard time believing her about everything that was happening, I think because it was so...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] What? And was he putting on like a good front for them? I think he must have been. I'm sure he was able to. Exactly. Oh god, that's awful. So they weren't believing the details of the abuse necessarily, and it was only after Hayward ended up being arrested that they realized Sherry was telling them the truth the entire time. Oh god, and that poor baby.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That poor baby having to grow up in that environment. I didn't find anything to say that like she was involved, the baby, and I can only hope that she wasn't.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Well, I feel so bad for like, both of them, for Sherry too, cause it's like,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I'm sure Sherry just wanted to protect that baby in an impossible situation. Exactly.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So in January of 1989, she did file for another restraining order after an argument got so bad that he slapped her across the face and ended up throwing her into the refrigerator. Not like inside of it, but like onto it. You have to be like such a huge piece of shit.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It's just like grow up. No, it's learn to manage your own emotions there buddy. Go get help. If you're having


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Figure out ways that work for you to calm it down before you lose it on someone, because that's not cool in any sense of the word. That's why I personally feel like everybody should just go to therapy, because you figure out ways to calm yourself down before you even know that you're pissed off about something. Truly. It makes sense. But it's so sad. She, in the affidavit filed, Sherry wrote,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Well that's the thing, I'm just picturing her like, this is the person that you love.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But, so she, she ended up filing for another restraining order like I said, and this time once it was granted.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And she was going to up the ante this time because she filed for divorce. Good.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now, at first, when he was served the divorce papers, Heyward was in shock.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Like, you have been married three years and it sounds like you made a majority of those years a living hell for her. Like, you did not love her. Love is not hitting somebody repeatedly in the face. And also,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He was trying to kinda like, fuck with her name and he was constantly accusing her of having an affair with one of her friends.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And she was like, I'm not having an affair. And another report made to the Norwalk police, uh, Leonard, her brother there claimed, Hey, we're just telling people in front of me.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And to me, that Sherry is gay and she left him for another woman. A woman, which I can say she's not.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Stepping out on him and everything. The divorce was granted on March 29th, 1989.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And luckily Sherry was awarded full custody of Crystal. I was going to say I'm very glad that she was able to get out of there because sometimes that is the most dangerous, most of the time that is the most dangerous part of the whole thing. Absolutely. Is when you file. Exactly. Or when you plan to. Well what makes me sad is she did get full custody of Crystal.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But a few weeks after everything was finalized, the agreement was modified and Hayward actually ended up getting granted custody on alternate weekends and holidays.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Which she must have been terrified to send her daughter over there. How do you let a child be with any person who is violent?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] They must have just gone their separate ways and kind of let the court handle it from the sounds of it, which I think in that situation was the best way to go.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] At the same time, it definitely marked a downward spiral for Hayward into more violence, more bizarre behavior that hinted at bigger mental health problems to come.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] His parents moved from Ohio to Florida and their relationship for like the past couple years.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But at the same time, they were also the only people he had to lean on when it came to managing his symptoms and his symptoms were getting worse and worse.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So once they were gone, the changes in him were completely undeniable and his life


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It just became like a series of bizarre events, threatening events. He was having violent exchanges with people, acquaintances, friends, doctors, strangers sometimes. Oof.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And he didn't really have anybody around him at this point.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Heyward stole the landlord's mail and cut it up into little pieces. And he said he did this because he was convinced that his landlord was returning his mail, like Heyward's mail, to the post office.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And the landlord was like, no, I'm not doing that at all. Like I haven't touched his mail. See and it's these kind of things, these like strange behaviors that are always the things that it's like, you wish someone's radar would go up. But again, and especially in this country, mental health is not


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And this is like racist, so trigger warning. He said, I don't like people from foreign countries. I'm going to kill one of them when it gets dark. I'm going to hurt somebody. I'm going to hurt them or their children.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] They got married in 1991 and just after the wedding, like he had with his first wife,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He started abusing her, getting argumentative, picking fights and then started making weird threats or just being generally menacing.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Weirdly, the abuse of behaviour was not the main cause for the end of their relationship. What really ended the relationship


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Was Hayward's slow shift toward isolation and he was becoming like very obsessive about his environment. He wanted to control everything in the environment.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So they went their separate ways because of this, but they actually never formally divorced. Oh wow. Isn't that interesting? Yeah. They were technically still married, but.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Very much separated when Hayward started dating Patricia Booer years later. Okay.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So in the years that followed the break, uh, the breakdown of Hayward's second marriage and kind of like the incidents where he was living, he was hospitalized for mental health treatment several times. And quote, with the diagnosis usually listed as paranoid schizophrenia. Okay. Which is really sad.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] His symptoms almost always included acute paranoia, and he believed that people were either watching him, following him, or bugging his apartment.