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[Assistant] And then in another, he told his doctors he believed that quote, his alarm clock and his mind were being controlled by satellites and said that certain people in town were trying to bite off his penis.


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[Assistant] Wow. So he was really, really going through it.


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[Assistant] But the thing was, more often than not, the periods where he was hospitalized, they were actually him volunteering to get help and like going into these programs, like the first move was initiated by Hayward himself. And it was amazing that he was willing to get help, but because of the state of his mental health, he didn't always want to stay once he got there.


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[Assistant] There wasn't a lot they could do back then because all of this was a voluntary basis.


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[Assistant] Now in the late 90s, he was living in Greenwich, Ohio, and he was having a lot of run-ins with the police. I think it's Greenwich, it might be Greenwich, but I said Greenwich. Yeah. Cause we have a Greenwich here. We do.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, so he was having frequent run-ins with the police, um, during this time. There was a lot of sudden outbursts. There was a lot of inappropriate behavior going on.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And because of this, Randall actually recognized Hayward's symptoms of mental illness. And I think he kind of like would keep tabs on him a little more because he knew that he was by himself.


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[Assistant] Now on one occasion, Hayward walked into this officer's office and reported that something evil had taken hold of him. He said he couldn't tell the chief what it was because it was quote unquote confidential.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And that was actually his second run-in with Hayward that same day.


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[Assistant] The first run in was when Hayward was discovered sitting in the front seat of the mayor's car in the city hall parking lot.


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[Assistant] So clearly this was escalating. Yeah. And the thing was, for the most part, aside from the struggles within the marriage and the domestic abuse,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Afterwards, his behavior was strange and it was off-putting for residents in the small town, but it was usually just minor disturbances that were going on. But in December of 1998, that all changed when police in Newark, Ohio received a call about a man with a gun causing problems at a place called Nick's Saloon.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Okay, now when the officers arrived at the bar, they were approached by a man who said somebody else in the parking lot had been following his car closely for miles and he didn't know why. Now when they approached the driver of the other vehicle, it turned out to be Hayward Bissell.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And he told the officers he couldn't tell them why he was following this man. He said again, it's confidential.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So in the spring of 1999, he was hospitalized again after a small fire on the stove of his apartment set off the fire alarms in that apartment in Greenwich. And he told the investigators he'd been smoking pot.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And that interacted with his already prescribed medication.


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[Assistant] And he ended up with a burn on his arm. So he got treated for the burn.


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[Assistant] And while he was being treated, he definitely seemed to be kind of out of it. And the doctors were very concerned about his behavior.


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[Assistant] So he got admitted for a psychiatric evaluation and treatment.


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[Assistant] Now during this inpatient stay, Hayward told his doctors,


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[Assistant] That it was actually federal agents that had set fire in his apartment. And he said that the government was taking away his special powers.


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[Assistant] So he's starting to really go through it. Yeah.


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[Assistant] But sadly, that was another short stay in the hospital that didn't really do much to alleviate his symptoms. And in no time he was out again and left to his own devices.


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[Assistant] Now later that spring, one of his former girlfriends actually introduced him to a woman named Patricia, better known as Patty Booer.


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[Assistant] Like Hayward, she had a pretty difficult life. In her case though, it was for very different reasons. She grew up in Olena, Ohio.


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[Assistant] And she spent a lot of her early years surrounded by family.


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[Assistant] She did not come from the best family. One of her family members was sexually abusing her until the abuse was discovered and they went to prison for it. But at school and in the community she was very well liked.


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[Assistant] She did struggle with cognitive impairments and at school she was identified as a student with special needs. So she had people at school and in the community that looked out for her a little bit more. Yeah.


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[Assistant] Now as she got older, she became a lot more scared of men in particular. I can imagine why. Her diaries from the mid to late 90s suggest that she'd gone through a lot of traumatic events that caused her


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] To form these negative associations with men and intimacy and all that kinda stuff.


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[Assistant] He was a terrible, terrible man. He literally had bad to the bone tattooed on his forehead.


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[Assistant] And when he got arrested, it was almost like he was proud to admit what he had done. Oh, that's fucking disgusting. Fucking...


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[Assistant] Horrible. Throw him in a dank cave. And it's unclear whether or not he had sexually abused Patty as well.


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[Assistant] But either way, his behavior had to have had her, had to have made her fears and her trauma even worse.


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[Assistant] When he was evaluated for a sex offender treatment program, this is how much of a monster he was. He failed to meet the criteria quote,


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[Assistant] Because he did not have the mental capacity to meaningfully engage in it. What?


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[Assistant] Like they couldn't, they were like he cannot be helped, like he needs to be in prison. Wow. He cannot be reformed.


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[Assistant] At the same time, so Patty had all these diary entries where there was a clear


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Clear signs that she was like very afraid of men and.


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[Assistant] Feel right. Yeah, like exactly, feel right. You know? Like she was like, I want this, but it's scary. But not like this. Yeah. And this is all she's ever really known is people taking advantage of her.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, but unfortunately, and I mean most likely because of the trauma that she'd experienced, she kind of struggled when it-


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[Assistant] Came to distinguishing positive attention from negative.


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[Assistant] And she had a tendency to, this had a tendency to put her in the company of abusive or manipulative men.


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[Assistant] Of course, absolutely, it's fucked up. Her aunt Betty would later say she was never a very good judge of character when it came to boyfriends.


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[Assistant] To help her out, you know, more people for backup, being like, hey, I don't know about that one. Yeah.


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[Assistant] But by December 1999, Patti had been dating Hayward for a few months and she was feeling very optimistic about their future.


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[Assistant] She wrote in one diary entry, there is a man in my life that I love with all my heart and soul.


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[Assistant] But then she goes on in other entries to say things about them hadn't been going so well lately around this December 1999 period. And she was wondering at this point if it was time for them to split up. But she almost always, she almost seemed like empowered in later entries when she


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] By the winter, she was still unsure about her relationship with Hayward. On one hand, she was very determined to build a positive future for herself that didn't involve volatile or abusive men or people taking advantage of her.


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[Assistant] But then on the other hand, she still wanted a partner. She still wanted somebody to love her. And she also really wanted to start a family.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Which is awful. And the latter feeling I think definitely explains why she was hesitant to break things off with Hayward. But still, the fact that the relationship was having struggles was clear, especially to her family.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] One of her cousins, Rebecca, later pointed out, usually when she had a boyfriend, she would bring him over here. She never brought him over here. Talking about Hayward. Yeah.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] In the six months that Patti and Hayward Bissell dated, multiple, multiple of her friends and acquaintances warned her


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But she was either unable to or didn't want to see these issues. She was very committed to making things work.


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[Assistant] And by January 2000, she was even more determined to make things work.


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[Assistant] Now, on January 22nd, she called a ton of her friends to let them know that she was pregnant, that she and Hayward were expecting.


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[Assistant] They were more than likely confused and very concerned about this because things weren't going well at this point.


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[Assistant] Patty had actually told him, uh, told her friends on numerous occasions right before this that she was planning on breaking things off with him. He was controlling, he was critical, he was abusive to her at times, and she was usually afraid of him. So her friends were really worried. But every time she tried to break things off, he would


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] This is where the story kinda gets a little bit confusing. It's kind of unclear what happened here, because they go on a road trip, so.


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[Assistant] What we can assume is that Hayward must have wanted to tell his parents the news in person, and he told him that he and his girlfriend Patti were going to take a trip down to Florida to see them.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, Howard, the father, later told the Sandusky Register, we expected him to visit, but he never showed.


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[Assistant] So later while he was being held at the county jail.


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[Assistant] Hayward would tell investigators that Patty didn't know where they were going, she just knew they were going for a drive.


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[Assistant] So she wasn't prepared. Remember, they're in Ohio and they're driving to Florida. She wasn't prepared for this. And she's pregnant.


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[Assistant] So they left Ohio on the afternoon of January 22nd, and that day they made it as far as Chattanooga, Tennessee.


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[Assistant] And that night they stopped, uh, for the night at a motel.


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[Assistant] But they didn't have any money to pay for a room, so they slept in their car in the parking lot.


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[Assistant] Now the next morning, they woke up to some pretty gnarly weather. There was an ice storm the night before that had passed through, so everything was covered in a thin sheet of ice, which was gonna make the drive more dangerous to finish. And because of that, Hayward was very on edge, because he was like irritated about the weather conditions.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And to make things worse, he was already irritated before this with Patty. He was mad because she hadn't brought any money along for the trip.


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[Assistant] I'm sorry dude, what the fuck are you doing? And also, you didn't tell her that you were going on a trip. She had no idea where you were going. You thought you were going on a drive. She probably thought you were going to get fucking ice cream or something. What the hell? She was not prepared for this. No, of course not.


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[Assistant] But I think he must have been in a mental state where that was not computing. This was all just a disaster. Truly. A traumatic disaster.


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[Assistant] He was looking for a western union so that he could ask his parents to send money so that they could finish their drive.


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[Assistant] No, eventually they reach Somerville, Georgia. Uhm, it's a small town not too far from the Alabama border. And it was there that they stopped for coffee at a Burger King around 730 in the morning.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And when Heyward pulled up to the drive-through window, he asked the lady at the register whether there was a flea market in town where he could buy, quote, weapons, guns, knives, and stuff. Oh.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And she told him that there was a flea market, but that they didn't sell weapons at the market. And she said you could probably kind of find something of that sort at the local pawn shop, like one of the pawn shops. What a strange interaction.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But he told her, uh, a pawn shop would take too long to deal with, so she was like, okay, I would try maybe one of the markets just over the border in Alabama. Yea, just like, I don't know what to tell you guys. Exactly. She's like, I'm just here to give you coffee.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So she was like, yeah, like cross the border in Alabama, find one of the markets. Here's some kind of rough directions.


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[Assistant] Now after that, Hayward drove around for a while until he spotted a woman who was driving a green Nissan Maxima, and for some reason he started following her as she drove.


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[Assistant] Hey, like, do you need help? Like, what's going on? But he just sat in the car, just staring at her, not saying anything. And she was like,


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[Assistant] What do you guys want? And finally Hayward said that they were lost.


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[Assistant] But just as he was about to say something else, the woman's cat tried to get out of her house.


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[Assistant] So she reached down to grab the cat and she just went back inside and like locked the door and didn't come back out.


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[Assistant] So, Heyward and Patty sat in the stranger's driveway for a couple more minutes and then Heyward just randomly pulled back out and started heading back the same way that they had come. So now they're backtracking.


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[Assistant] He never said why he followed this woman or what his plan was, but...


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[Assistant] I guess it's possible that he just needed directions. I also think it's possible that he was gonna hurt her. I could see either thing happening. This is just scary and always.


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[Assistant] Yeaah. I don't like it. I thought you were saying it's scary in all ways. Oh, I was waiting. No, like in all ways it's scary. It's fucking terrifying.


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[Assistant] So the woman at the Burger King, like I said, she kind of just gave him general directions to find the market.


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[Assistant] But now at this point, he's probably forgotten what she even said.


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[Assistant] So eventually they made their way back to Somerville, Georgia, where Hayward stopped the car in the middle of an intersection and just sat there again with the engine idling.


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[Assistant] So two women who happened to be out for a walk went up to the car and said like, oh, like, do you need any help? Like, here you are. Yeah, exactly. And he said, no, I don't need any help. I'm letting the transmission cool down.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But later those women would tell investigators that during this exchange, Patti looked very upset. They said that she was huddled up in the passenger seat and she looked like she'd been crying.


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[Assistant] Would have, would report having strange interactions with Hayward that afternoon.


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[Assistant] And it was especially while he was driving around the Summerville area. He was just stopping at various points to get coffee and asking bizarre questions or doing bizarre things, stopping to use the bathroom and doing the same thing.


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[Assistant] And then around 3pm, he became very suspicious of Patty.


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[Assistant] And he demanded to know, he said to her, are you 007 or the devil?


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[Assistant] Oh no. Yeah, this is a huge break in reality. It's a very, very big break in reality. And by that point,


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[Assistant] It was clear he had come to believe that Patty was either a double agent, this is a quote, quote, a double agent or a black witch, like meaning dabbling in like the black arts. Yeah.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And at this point he was determined to quote unquote get rid of her.


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[Assistant] He claimed that he asked Patty if she knew where they were and she answered telling him that they were in Georgia.


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[Assistant] It's gonna get really intense here. If you wanna tap out of this, I understand. Here we go.


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[Assistant] At that point, all of the sudden he just reached into the back seat.


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[Assistant] But the murder set Hayward Bissell off on what he described to his cellmate as a rampage. Like we're not even done yet.


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[Assistant] The autopsy findings would later note that Patty's lower right leg was severed at the knee.


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[Assistant] Her left hand was severed at the wrist. Oh my god. And quote, portions of her left lung, liver and stomach were removed. Removed? Removed.


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[Assistant] The cause of death was the sharp force injury to her neck, meaning the first attack is what killed her and everything else happened after she'd been killed. So she didn't have to experience that luckily, but her body did.


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[Assistant] Now the autopsy also noted more than 30 stab wounds to her eyes, the bridge of her nose, and several sharp force injuries to her chest.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He was gone at this point, like on another level. And later, when the crime scene technicians processed this vehicle, they found blood on nearly every surface of the interior. And there were even spots on the exterior of the car.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now, they think the murder most likely took place in the parking lot of, uhm, the discount food mart, food mart, excuse me, in Fort Payne, Alabama.


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[Assistant] Which is a small town that is just across the border from Georgia.


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[Assistant] That afternoon, two men were leaving the store parking lot and they saw Hayward outside of the car with his doors open. And they said he stared at them menacingly as they drove past.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And just as they were by the side of Bissell's car, he grabbed Paddy's head up by the hair, held it up.


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[Assistant] And they said as though he were proud to display what he had done. What the fuck? Yeah. Are you kidding me? No.


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[Assistant] Uuuh. This is really bad. This sounds like a horror movie. I was gonna say this literally sounds like a horror movie. This is awful. It's just so sad.


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[Assistant] Now, obviously they were shocked and terrified and sped the fuck out of there. Yeaah.


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[Assistant] So, obviously, Patty's murder was completely senseless, insanely brutal.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And both of those factors suggest that Hayward Bissell had become dangerously paranoid at this point.


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[Assistant] Now, even what he did in the aftermath shows that he was not operating under a sane mind. He believed that he needed to report what he had done to Patty to his supervisors. So he strapped Patty back into the passenger seat.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And left that food mart parking lot and headed in the direction of Georgia.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He drove about 12 miles until he got to the small town of Mentone, Alabama.


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[Assistant] And there he pulled into a stranger's driveway and just got out of the car.


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[Assistant] And James and Sue Pumphrey were at their home in Menton.


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[Assistant] Uh, multiple people in their neighbourhood actually that day had lost power and water from the ice storms that I had talked about. They lost power actually the night before.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So James and Sue had spent their afternoon cleaning, collecting, and distributing plastic jugs of water to their neighbors that afternoon.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Pulled into the driveway, their two dogs started losing it. And James looked out the window to see what was going on.


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[Assistant] And he said that's when he saw this large man coming up the driveway toward the house.


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[Assistant] Now, he would have never opened the door if he actually had a very clear view of Hayward, who was completely blood-soaked, but he didn't see that.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] James and his wife Sue as unusual was how aggravated the dogs were by this man's presence.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The dogs had never done that before, and he was like, oh, this makes me nervous. That's why I love my little girls, cause they will always tell you who's a bad person. Exactly. I love them so much.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But from what James could see from the porch, it just looked like, or it looked like Hayward had struck back hard at the dog and sent her running back in the direction of the house.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So he spun around to see what had happened and called out to Hayward, did my dog bite you? Like he was like, what the fuck is going on? When he turned back around.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Heyward was standing right in front of him and just punched him in the stomach. Oh my god! Just out of nowhere.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He later, James later told reporters because just know he survives this attack, which is insane. He said his hands were so big, I didn't even see the knife. He stabbed him. So he had stabbed him. Holy shit.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Everything happened so fast he didn't even realize that he'd been stabbed until he looked down and saw that blood was pouring out of his stomach.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So he backed up toward the front door and Hayward continued walking towards him.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But just then the wife, Sue, called out and it actually distracted Hayward for a second.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So he, James, screams to his wife to stay where she is. But just as he was doing that, the dogs ran out to the porch and they started attacking Hayward, protecting their owners. I do want to give you a trigger warning for animal abuse. So James and Sue, they were able to close their door.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] While he fought off the dogs, James managed to get a rifle and actually fired a warning shot before aiming the gun at Hayward, so he gave him a warning. But now, Hayward had opened up the front door and was standing in front of the couple at this point.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So James later said, I fired once, then I pointed it at him and it jammed. Oh my god. Cause I was like, honestly, I'm so glad he's armed right now. He said, you come any closer and I'll kill you. And then he said that, Heyward started hollering, don't shoot me and ran off. Okay, you just stabbed him. You just pull, you.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You broke through his, you drove your car through his front gate, you stabbed him, you hurt one of his dogs, you started fighting his dogs, and now you're standing in his living room and he has no fucking idea who you are.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Once Heyward left, the couple was able to survey the damage of what had gone on.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] James actually had to be hospitalized twice due to this attack, and he ended up being out of work for months afterwards. And on top of that, they were incredibly traumatized. I can't even imagine. This just happened randomly out of the blue.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Sue later said, I'll never forget his face and I'll never forget his eyes. That's what caught my attention. With everything going on so quickly, his eyes were just unreal. It was like he didn't have a soul.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] What an awful end to this, but it would have been much worse if those dogs weren't there. Absolutely. Those dogs, like, protected the hell out of them. Like, protected them, saved them. And stopped him briefly, like.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It's insane. I just, I wish that they had not been killed. I wish they'd survived. But Sue said, if it weren't for our dogs, we wouldn't be here. They saved our lives. They were our angels. That's gonna make me cry. I know.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But Hayward Bissell left the Pumphreys driveway and headed out to Alabama Highway 117 heading towards Georgia. So he is in this state of mind still. He has


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So it was late afternoon when he drove up behind Rhea and Donald Perch. They were a couple driving through Menton on their way home.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Raya Perch barely even noticed the Lincoln Town Car that was riding their bumper.


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[Assistant] When her husband stopped her and said he would get out to exchange information with the other driver. So she rummaged through the glove compartment as Donald walked around to the drivers side window.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So he's literally holding onto this man's car. He said, I was two feet from his face yelling, stop, stop, what are you doing? Why are you doing this? All while he drove me about 200 feet down the road. What the fuck. He is holding onto this man's car for dear life. He was just driving with his wife a minute ago.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So in response to Donald's yelling, apparently, this is what Donald said, Heyward only stared at him and gave him an obscene hand gesture.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Then he jerked the steering wheel, which sent Donald flying off the hood of the car to land in a ditch.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Months later he recounted, Donald recounted the story for a local paper and told them, at first, I thought he was just mad.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But when I looked into his eyes, I saw that he was a madman. Wow.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Wildly, Donald never even noticed Patty's mutilated body in the passenger seat. Cause he probably, I mean, he's hanging onto the hood of the car. But he told reporters, excuse me, all I saw was his eyes. I never saw the cut up girl next to him. Cause he was probably focused directly on the driver, just being like, what the fuck. And holding on. Yea, just trying to hold onto the car.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So, Raya ran to her husband, who was now lying in the ditch with a broken leg, two broken wrists, and a shattered knee.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But he waved her off, he was like, you need to get off the highway and flag, or you need to go down the highway and flag somebody down for help. Oh my god.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So she's running down Highway 117, and luckily she locates a man named Walter Pollan, who was working, uh, on his field, on his tractor that day. He called Lookout Mountain Fire and Rescue.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And they then returned to the ditch where Donald was laying. And in the meantime, another couple, James McCray and his wife, were passing Rhea in Donald's car and they saw Donald so they pull over to stop and help.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now, James McRae sees the state that Donald is in, and he's like, okay, like, you need to call 911 to his wife. Now, that was like the...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] One of many calls that the now DeKalb County 911 dispatchers were getting about this hit and run now. Like their phones are ringing off the hook.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So as Raya, Walter, Poland, and the McCrees gathered around Donald, waiting for the ambulance to arrive,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And then, slammed the car in reverse and aimed it instead at the group.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] To protect Don and to get away from the car. Oh my god, and it's all these like strangers just trying to protect this guy, like people working together. Exactly. Jesus.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So now police and emergency responders are making their way to this accident at the scene of, uh, the accident scene on the side, Jesus, of Highway 117. And Mentone's police chief, Ken Busby,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He was at a nearby gas station filling up his car for the day. He was actually off duty. This was his day off.


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[Assistant] But he went out to survey the damage from the ice storm and wanted to see what he could help to do around town.


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[Assistant] There's just a bunch of helpful people around here. I know, the community. So while he was paying for his gas, he heard the bolo alert about the Silver Lincoln town car that had fled the scene of a hit and run and was now making its way towards Georgia, and he's like,


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[Assistant] Okay, I think I should get to it. So he hops in his car thinking that he might be able to help now at the scene.


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[Assistant] And he heads out on the road in the direction of 117.


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[Assistant] Now, he only made it about a quarter of a mile down the road when he spotted the Lincoln Town Car, Hayward Bissell, barreling down the road now in his direction. So Hayward's speeds pass.


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[Assistant] So before he knew it, Hayward found himself at a crossroads in the road.


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[Assistant] At this point now, he is blocked in all directions by patrol cars because they come running out.


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[Assistant] And their drivers are all standing around him with their guns drawn and aimed at him. Like this is a standoff. So he revs the engine.


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[Assistant] As this is happening and tries to drive the car directly in front of them.


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[Assistant] But he only went a few feet and one of the officers was shouting, don't do it, don't do it.


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[Assistant] And he revved the engine again, but then stopped the car.


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[Assistant] So officers approached the vehicle and they yanked the driver's door open. They were fully intending to yank him from behind the, from behind the wheel.


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[Assistant] But they struggled to get him, he's a very big guy. Yeaah.


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[Assistant] Um, now while several officers are struggling to subdue this guy, they're realizing he's covered in blood. And other people are like,


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[Assistant] And so one of them went inside to put the gear shift into park.


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[Assistant] And that's when he saw the bloody knife for the first time and realized that there was another person in this car.


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[Assistant] And this person, this officer said it actually took a few seconds for him to fully process what he was looking at.


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[Assistant] Until his brain started to register that it was Patty's brutalized body.


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[Assistant] In human remains. He said, I thought it was a mannequin at first. It was such an unreal thing to see.


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[Assistant] You know, it's, it's so wild that everybody always says that. I thought it was a mannequin. I thought it was a doll. And it's like, so, and I, I'm always like, it's never a mannequin. It's never a doll, but I'm like,


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[Assistant] Your first thought would never be, that's a real person. Like that's a real thing, you know what I mean? Like my first instinct is always like, it's never, it's not a mannequin ever. Like it never is, but I'm like, I would think the same thing. Why would I ever think that that's a brutalized human body?


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[Assistant] It's, this story is so scary. So once he was removed from the car, Hayward was actually mostly compliant with the officers. Wow. They began to search him and he was letting them.


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[Assistant] And Sheriff's Deputy Lamar Hackworth later said his arms were totally covered with blood as well as his shirt and pants.


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[Assistant] But if Lamar Hackworth had searched Bissell's pocket at that point,


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[Assistant] What he would have discovered was a large portion of Patty's esophagus. What?


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[Assistant] Her esophagus part of it was in his shirt pocket.


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[Assistant] I don't know what I thought was in there, but that is not on the list. No. What the?


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[Assistant] Fuck. This is, I think, the most brutal case that I have ever heard of. Like at least one of them.


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[Assistant] Yeaah. This is, doing this one was really difficult. Yeaah, this is horrifying.


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[Assistant] So the county district attorney Mike O'Dell told reporters that who had assembled for a press brief at this point, quote,


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[Assistant] So once they determined that Patty's murder had occurred in Georgia, the DeKalb County investigators called in the Alabama Secret Service agents to interview Hayward.


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[Assistant] Now, unfortunately while he may have been relatively docile during the arrest,


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[Assistant] He became very very agitated when they put him in a cell.


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[Assistant] But really all they could get out of him was that he was on a mission. That's what he kept telling them.


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[Assistant] He actually broke the shower head off the wall in his cell, and that caused water to spray everywhere.


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[Assistant] The next day, Hayward's bond hearing was held and it had to be held.


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[Assistant] In the jail after he was determined to be too dangerous to transport. Like it should have took place somewhere else but they couldn't move him.


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[Assistant] They said for his safety and the safety of others, we could not take him into court.


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[Assistant] But Bond was luckily refused by the judge. I think they saw what they were dealing with. And Hayward was luckily, finally going to be transferred to a secure mental health facility. This time it wasn't voluntary or involuntary. Yea, like you can't sign yourself out. And you're not coming out.


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[Assistant] So they were, again, trying to piece together what had happened to cause Patty's death and


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[Assistant] The other attempted murders of the Pumphries and Donald Perch, but Hayward was not giving them any information.


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[Assistant] So he was, uhm, given a public defender. And his public defender, Hoyt Ba, I believe is how you say the name, told the press, he's definitely paranoid and definitely hearing voices. Which was true. Remember, he's diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia.


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[Assistant] A grand jury indicted him for the attempted robbery and the attempted murder of James Pumphrey and the attempted murder of Donald Perch.


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[Assistant] And at that point he pleaded not guilty by reason of mental disease or defect and afterwards he returned to the hospital and there he would await word of a grand jury hearing for Patty's murder. Okay.


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[Assistant] But meanwhile, the investigators traced his movements from Alabama back to Georgia and based on their, on Patty's DNA profile.


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[Assistant] After months staying at Bryce Hospital, Hayward was deemed competent enough to leave the hospital.


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[Assistant] But in the time since his arrest, he did become much more manageable and way less destructive, but he was still largely uncooperative.


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[Assistant] Uh, this is crazy though, by the time he returned to his jail cell he had lost over 170 pounds. Wow. And he refused to leave his cell.


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[Assistant] He spent nearly two years bouncing back and forth between hospitals and county jails while doctors were trying to stabilize him and while investigators and prosecutors were trying to figure out how to go forward in this case. But finally, it took two years. In February 2002, two years after Patty's murder.


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[Assistant] Hayward Bissell did go before a judge in Somerville, Georgia, where he pled guilty but mentally ill to the murder.


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[Assistant] Now, Superior Court Judge Christina Cook Connolly, she accepted the plea and she sentenced Hayward Bissell to life in prison.


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[Assistant] Now, the plea of guilty but mentally ill meant that he would spend the rest of his life in a prison suitable for his psychiatric care. Okay. Which, thank goodness, like that he could finally get some medication so that nobody else has to


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[Assistant] And the Georgia Department of Corrections is actually required to monitor his mental health and behavior.


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[Assistant] While also managing his, uh, medications.


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[Assistant] I have to say, it seems like this court system did everything that they needed to. It seems like it worked out in this situation, like the, the sentencing and punishment. Exactly. So hopefully with them managing his meds and treatment, he's in a better headspace and is not


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[Assistant] Absolutely tragic that so many people's lives were affected by this when he could have gotten help earlier, you know?


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[Assistant] He just, he like, sought out people to destroy their lives. He did.


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[Assistant] Uhm, but like I said, I got a lot of sources for you guys. So if you or anybody you know is struggling mentally or is in a relationship experiencing domestic violence, we're gonna put all these sources in the show notes, but I'll read them out for you now.


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[Assistant] We have uhm, the Schizophrenia and Psychosis Action Alliance. Their website is sczaction.org.


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[Assistant] And they have, they have a bunch of like education materials and support groups, which is awesome.


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[Assistant] And then we have the National Alliance on Mental Illness which is also known as NAMI or NAMI.


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[Assistant] It's nami.org and they have general resources there for mental health.


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[Assistant] We also have the battered woman's justice project.


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[Assistant] Uhm, we actually donated to them and we've met with them a few times and they are like an amazing resource.


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[Assistant] Their website is bwjp.org and they offer free legal help if you're going through any kind of domestic violence situation. And finally, we have the Center for Domestic Peace. Their website is centerfordomesticpeace.org and they offer support groups.


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[Assistant] Amazing. So again, I'm gonna put all of those in the show notes for anybody struggling, anybody that knows anybody struggling and...


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[Assistant] Just like take care of each other, cause this one made me really sad. This is a really sad story. It is. All around. And the thing is, like we were saying in the beginning, like you wanna think that we treat mental health differently now, but. But it's still tough. Still really tough. Yeah. So. Long way to go. Yeah. Long, long way to go. So guys, uhm.


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[Assistant] What if you were trafficked into the inner circle of a cult and signed a billion-year contract at 13? What would you do? This Is Actually Happening is a weekly podcast from Wandery that features extraordinary true stories of life-changing events told by the people who lived them. Follow This Is Actually Happening on Amazon Music or wherever you get your podcasts.


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[Assistant] Hey Prime members, you can listen to Morbid early and ad free on Amazon Music. Download the app today.


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[Assistant] I mean, there's some jalapenos on the nachos, so it works out. Yeah, there you go. There's some, yeah, there's some little peppers. Little peppers. Little red pepper, green pepper. Did I pick them off? Yeah.


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[Assistant] Did I eat them? No. I ate them though. But that's okay. So at least one of us did. Look at you, just getting your greens in. That's right, I'm all about getting the veggies. Oh yeaah. After I eat an entire Snickers bar.


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[Assistant] The week so far. It's Monday, so like, let's hope it's going okay. It'll be Monday when you listen to this, I think. You know what?


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[Assistant] A little bit of toxic yuckiness happened around everybody. But not anymore. But not here. Not here, no, no.


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[Assistant] Tomorrow I get to wear my hair like Pamela Anderson, so what could be negative about that? And I get to dress as someone.


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[Assistant] Let's get into it. You're like, let's just talk about the case. Cause we're really, we're veering off. Yeah we are. I don't know, it's a manic Monday. It is. But today we're gonna head all the way over to New York City, the Big Apple, baby. The Big Apple. And I feel like we can all agree that like,


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[Assistant] It's a city where it could be pretty hard for one single person to make their mark. Yeah, absolutely. Let alone a mark that lasts for decades after you're gone. Well shit. But that's exactly what happened to Roseanne Quinn. Ooh. We're gonna talk about today. She left her mark on the city on the night of January 2nd, 1973.


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[Assistant] Because Roseanne was like a single woman who like went out at night and met a man and brought him back home, it was like, oh well, she asked for this. Yea, cause that's what happened. I hate that. Yea. It was the 70s, so you know. Yea. The 70s of it all. But it's like don't blame the murderer. Definitely don't do that. Yea, never do that. Yea, blame her.


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[Assistant] So frustrating. And at the time of her death, Roseanne was young. She was a single school teacher and she was working at St. Joseph's School for the Deaf. So she was like an incredible person.


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[Assistant] And she was also pursuing, at the same time, a graduate degree that was gonna help advance her in her career. Good for her. In the evening, she would go out to like the neighborhood bars by herself, meet up with some friends, she'd mingle with the single men at the bar, she was just having a good time. From time to time, she would take one of them home.


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[Assistant] And that's the thing, in an earlier decade, Roseanne's death probably would have gone unnoticed by the public. But, because this was the early 1970s, an American culture was kind of going through, not even kind of, we really were going through a huge period of transformation.


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[Assistant] It was like Roseanne's lifestyle and murder was a political talking point for liberals, conservatives, and everything in the middle. Everybody just wanted to talk about it.


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[Assistant] And to some people, she was a modern woman who was unashamed of her interest in sex and just...


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[Assistant] So those people saw her as a woman who was so caught up in her own empowerment that she failed to see the apparent danger in her deviant lifestyle.


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[Assistant] It's very true. And smiling. Mhm. Alright, well guys, The Murder of Roseanne Quinn, it was actually, it would go on to inspire two novels and actually a major Hollywood film that you've probably heard of. Mhm.


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[Assistant] But that film kind of easily slipped into the space between fact and fiction. It's not really full-blown true, but some just, you know, artistic license.


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[Assistant] Yes, exactly. All of the projects focusing on Roseanne definitely obscured the real life woman at the heart of the story, though. But people still tell this story because it's representative of a centuries old story that all too often ends in murder.


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[Assistant] Now the Quinn's were strict Irish Catholics and they passed their beliefs onto their children and their children carried on a lot of the traditions into their adulthood.


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[Assistant] John, the father, he was an executive with Bell Laboratories and he ended up moving to Minehill Township in 1955 to be closer to his company's headquarters, uhm, which were in New Jersey.


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[Assistant] But so Roseanne's childhood was interrupted in 1957 though, because she actually contracted polio. Whoa.


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[Assistant] Mhm. She had to have surgery and then obviously recover from that surgery. So that meant she had to spend almost a year of her life on bed rest. Holy shit. Polio is no joke.


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[Assistant] And the disease left her with a large scar and a slight but noticeable limp that she was really self-conscious of for the rest of her life.


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[Assistant] In reality, the effects of the surgery and the scarring weren't very severe, but Rosanne was never able to shake the feeling that her father couldn't stand the disfigurement that she'd gone through, and she thought that was why he shunned her all throughout her childhood. Oh, that makes me so sad. It's really, really sad.


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[Assistant] Ugh, it's, like, reading that made me, made my heart hurt.


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[Assistant] So after graduating from Morris Catholic High School in 1962, Roseanne enrolled in the Newark State Teachers College and there she majored in elementary education. She wanted to be a teacher from the jump. She was really excited about it.


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[Assistant] She loved her parents very much, but their strict Catholic home could really feel oppressive at times. Yeah, like suffocating.


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[Assistant] Yeah, the church doctrine dictated everything between what was and wasn't acceptable behavior, especially when it came to sex. Oh boy. And that was like not, Roseanne didn't want to be told what she could and couldn't do. Not a recipe to make somebody listen.


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[Assistant] So like a lot of us, she went off to college, she found a group of like-minded people, and they had been drawn to a flourishing counterculture and feminism movements that were happening across the country. Hell yea. It was the 70s, peace, love, make love. Free love, man. Not war. It was great. And she found her people. Yeaah.


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[Assistant] And so she was an average student at Newark State, but the school actually allowed her to explore her interests, and it helped her develop a passion for teaching that would shape her personal and her professional life. So after graduating in 1966, she moved into a small apartment in a relatively safe section of Manhattan's east side.


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[Assistant] She had two roommates who were also young ladies and she found work as a teacher in the Newark, New Jersey public school system. So she was really just like off to live in her own life being independent. She's got a path. Finding her path.


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[Assistant] She got her first taste of kind of the real scary fucking world one night when she stayed late after school. She was just staying late to clean up her classroom, literally. And she was assaulted in her classroom by a student. He threatened her with a knife and actually tried to rape her.


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[Assistant] So she actually ended up leaving that school and she found a new job teaching in the Bronx. She was like, I don't need to sit in this classroom every day and be reminded of what could potentially happen to me and what almost did happen to me. I'm good. No, cause I can never feel comfortable again. No, I don't, I couldn't either.


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[Assistant] Now the religious values instilled in her by her parents were among the reasons, actually, and factors that drove her to be a teacher. But at the same time, the religion seemed to have a large effect on her relationship with men.


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[Assistant] Ugh, get a load of this crazy girl! Yeah, they were like swipe, what is it, swipe left? Is that the bad one?


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[Assistant] So as a result though, her relationships with men were really hindered by shame and they tended not to last very long or go too deep. Yea. Really sad. That's sad.


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[Assistant] So instead, she liked to spend nights at home, she liked to read, she would go out with her friends, uhm, she really loved the neighborhood bars, WM Tweeds or the Copper Hatch. And then again, like I said, she'd bring somebody home for, back to her apartment for a little fun every now and again.


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[Assistant] So by late 1972, things actually seemed to be going really well for her. She'd found that new job that she loved, she was teaching at St. Joseph's School for the Deaf now, she moved into a new apartment,


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[Assistant] And this new apartment was in a newly converted high-rise. It was in an even safer neighborhood on the Upper West Side. And she had also just started classes at Hunter College, where she was going after her graduate degree in Deaf education.


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[Assistant] As 1972 flipped over to 1973 and Christmas break was winding down.


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[Assistant] Roseanne Quinn would not live to see more than a couple days after the new year.


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[Assistant] On the evening of January 2nd, 1973, she stopped at Tweeds, which was a neighborhood bar. It was right across the street from her apartment.


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[Assistant] And I guess the bartender noticed that she looked a little lonely, looked a little depressed, so we went over to talk to him.


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[Assistant] To talk to her, excuse me. And by that time she was kind of a regular at Tweeds, so the bartender knew her, made his way over and they just chatted for a little bit.


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[Assistant] She seemed to be like a little cheered up by the conversation and she actually ended up getting up from the table when she realized that a group of her friends were in the bar now. So she headed over them to chat with them.


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[Assistant] They chatted for a while, he bought the next round of drinks as they kept chatting, and to those around them, they both looked like any other couple in the bar. They were sharing a drink, having a conversation, just shooting the shit. Yea.


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[Assistant] So as the night went on, the group actually got bored at Tweeds and somebody suggested that they move across the street to another bar called the Copper Hatch. So Roseanne and John, or Roseanne kind of looked at John like, hey, you want to go? And they decided to go.


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[Assistant] The conversation continued at Hatch. So did the drinks. Everybody was getting a little schwaisty. It's okay.


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[Assistant] And they kinda, Roseanne and John noticed the trend, so they actually decided to go back to her apartment just to continue their conversation and get to know each other a little bit more. Yeah, they seemed to like each other. Yeah. But by the next morning, Roseanne Quinn would be dead.


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[Assistant] As far as anybody can tell, they were seen together casually talking as they went into Roseanne's building at 253 West and 72nd Street.


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[Assistant] John would later claim that they reached her apartment and after some light conversation they engaged in consensual sex. But then in another version of this story that he told to his court-appointed lawyer,


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[Assistant] He claimed that he was unable to get an erection and the sex actually never occurred.


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[Assistant] So early reports indicated that Roseanne had been raped by her assailant.


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[Assistant] It's really hard to say whether or not she was raped because there's obviously hallmarks of it in an examination because when you unfortunately in like, you know, trigger warning, cause we're just going to get into it for a second.


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[Assistant] If you are fighting someone off and you do not want it to happen, it is going to hurt you in some way. They're going to have to force it. That's the whole point.


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[Assistant] And there are going to be consequences biologically and physically from that.


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[Assistant] But then again, we've seen cases before where.


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[Assistant] There wasn't, like, super clear physical evidence of it, but it actually happened. Exactly. So it's like, uuuh. Well, I think there's a lot of factors, you know? Like, you know, there's a lot of variables at stake that we don't know.


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[Assistant] Cause it's like, did she pass out? Right. She could have. Cause then she wouldn't be fighting back, and it wouldn't be as, you know, evident, I would think. Exactly. Exactly. And she very well could have. I mean, one, they had a lot to drink that night. Two, he did get violent with her at some point. That's a really good point. She could have passed out and he could have done what he wanted to do with her. Absolutely.


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[Assistant] So according to John in his story where they did engage in sexual, in um, consensual sex, excuse me, once they were done, Roseanne quote, and this is insane, like this didn't happen, but he said she quote, went nuts and started pushing me physically to hurry and get dressed and leave. Which also,


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[Assistant] In one version she went nuts for no reason, but then in another version of the events, which he gave, he said that she mocked his inability to get an erection and that's when everything started.


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[Assistant] No matter what, man, if she made fun of your dick, it's not a reason to kill her. Nope. Definitely not. I don't care, to be honest. Me either. Like, I don't care if you couldn't handle that. Leave. Exactly. And don't talk to her again. Right.


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[Assistant] Like that's what adults do. Exactly. So whatever happened in the moments before Roseanne was attacked, something switched in John and he


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[Assistant] He grabbed her by the throat and began choking and hitting her, claiming that he actually even used her own pants that he grabbed from the floor to continue choking her


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[Assistant] Until she lost consciousness. There you have it. There you have it. I didn't want to say it too early.


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[Assistant] So once she passed out, John said he went to the kitchen and he grabbed a paring knife and he proceeded to stab her 18 times. Jesus. 18 times. This is a stranger, by the way. Oh my god. Or potentially somebody that he's just had sex with.


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[Assistant] So when he was fairly certain that she was dead, he grabbed a lard, this is very graphic by the way, you might wanna skip forward, he grabbed a candle and he quote, stuffed it into her vagina until it broke off in his hand.


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[Assistant] You're telling me that post-mortem examination showed no physical effects of being forced? Well that's the thing. Cause it's like something was rammed in there. Early reports indicated that she had been raped, but then they switched up their story and said, and this is quote,


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[Assistant] And he said it was a large red candle. Yeah, any foreign object is going to cause damage. That's the fucking lie. Like what the hell is that about?


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[Assistant] I'd be questioning the hell out of that autopsy. I'd be like, uhm, you tell me what you're looking for and what you didn't find. I think that autopsy speaks to the time and speaks to


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[Assistant] Locked away and the key thrown away. But unfortunately, like we know, he ended it himself, which really, really so frustrating.


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[Assistant] So it was nearly 3.30 in the morning by that point, and he knew that he had to leave before the building started coming alive in the early morning hours. So before leaving, he started traipsing around the apartment, rifling through drawers and cabinets, stealing what little money she had in the apartment. To make it look like.


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[Assistant] I don't even know if it was to make it look like she had been robbed. I think he literally just wanted to rob her and maybe like the


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[Assistant] So once he wiped everything away, he went into the bathroom and showered.


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[Assistant] Wow. Yup. Rinsing away copious amounts of blood from his body, redressed himself, and then slipped out in the apartment down the street.


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[Assistant] When you find out why he was caught, it really depends on one person.


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[Assistant] And thank God that person decided to be a good person. Oh damn. Because he could have gotten away with this and-


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[Assistant] One hundred percent never would have seen him again, or if we did see him again, he would have killed at least one other person by that point. You don't end here. No.


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[Assistant] So staff and administrators of course found it weird when Roseanne failed to show up for work on January 2nd. It was the first day back to school after Christmas break. She had been there for like over two years at that point.


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[Assistant] She'd always been on time or called if she needed a sick day. So the fact that she didn't show up on the first day back was definitely of some concern.


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[Assistant] So they made phone calls to her apartment. No one was answering. When she failed to show up the following day, a coworker was actually sent to her apartment.


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[Assistant] Was a fucking wreck. There had been chairs knocked over, drawers were pulled and just thrown around the whole entire place. Objects were strewn about the room.


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[Assistant] And Roseanne's absolutely brutalized nude body, by the way, she was completely nude, was discovered on the pullout couch. She was barely recognizable through all the blood, the bruises, the stab wounds, everything. That's horrific. And then like I said, the walls, the couch, the floor, the windows, everything was covered in blood splatter.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And this is so fucking weird, so for him to say he snapped I don't think is true at all. No.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Her killer left quote, a hollow sculptured bust of a woman on Rosanne's face, like he was obscuring her humanity.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, like don't, don't come at me and say you snapped. You took the time to go find a bust of a woman and put it over her face, like how fucking bizarre. Isn't that so weird? That's so weird.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And this is so sad, Roseanne had a cat named Missy, and like, so everybody walked in and she started weaving through their legs when they came in. Oh, for like comfort. For comfort or to be fed, like, you know, whatever.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Just so sad. That makes me sad. So the police were called, obviously. They arrived a short time later and they sent officers floor to floor canvassing for any kind of lead. But nobody in the building had seen or heard anything suspicious that night.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] At a quick glance, Roseanne's death kinda seemed motivated at least in part by rape and secondarily by robbery. But the fact that it was so brutal led the investigators to think something more had happened to it. Again, I feel like I've said this a lot with all my cases, it wasn't a typical robbery. But still,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The apartment had clearly been tossed around, Rosanne's wallet was found on the floor empty, so they were like,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So the discovery prompted a actually surprisingly large investigation for a single murder in Manhattan.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Officers went through the building in search of leads, and then a second team of ten officers fanned out to Sherman Square, which was a large plaza between Broadway and 72nd Street.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It was commonly referred to as Needle Park, which is like really shitty. There was a large number of people who were using drugs while in the park, so it got its nickname like that.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But despite Roseanne having moved to the neighborhood for its safety, it really wasn't as safe as she thought it was. The area had experienced a relative increase in violent crime, which included the murder of a teacher two years earlier.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And then there was a drug related murder that occurred in the building, in her same building, six months earlier.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Oh, so yeah, that's a little close. It wasn't that safe.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So although the canvas of both the building and the nearby park turned up no leads, investigators learned that in 1969, the building where Roseanne had lived had actually been redeveloped from a hotel into an apartment building.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And this remodel included a major overhaul to the buildings entrance.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now there were a ton of security protocols in place that provided on-site doorman.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So this fact provided the important insight that whoever had murdered Roseanne had likely been let into the building by Roseanne herself.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So the investigator scoured the building, scoured the surrounding area.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So the detectives were so sure that she had welcomed her killer into her life that they very much limited their investigation to only her personal life. Which completely disregarded any possibility that her killer was from work.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, I understand you, you look at it and you look at the evidence and you say, okay, it seems like she let her attack her in because the security has gone up.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But it's like you can't limit your scope to that, you just focus your scope on that. Exactly. You have to still do in the side there.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] All of them. Every single one. Did you find a pineapple on the front door, John? Yeah, every single one of them. I can't. Just swinging. Like, you don't know these people. What a generalized, like, what a blanket to throw over an entire area. All artists, teachers, and young professionals are swingers. Swingers. All of them.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It was kind of shining a spotlight on the stark divide between the young people in the country and the older people in the country, conservatives, liberals, everything in the middle, like I said in the beginning.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And at the same time, groups that had been pretty quiet and underground were actually gaining social capital and political power through


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Roseanne Quinn represented the irresponsibility


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] of the supposedly sexual, sexually liberated modern woman. Yea, they're like, we don't want this shit. We want things to say the same. They're like, look what will happen to you if you're sexually liberated. Let's go back to the 50s. You'll be a swinger and you need to be subservient to your men. And then you won't get murdered because no one got murdered in the 50s. Never. Nope.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Just, this is new. Not by their husbands either. Absolutely not. Never happened. Never ever. Never covered a case like that.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So, McMahon, he had to open his mouth again, and he said, that's the captain, he said, quote, this city is dangerous. If you live on the west side, like she did, and you're friendly, affable, mixed with all kinds of people and have a lot of nightlife, well, a lot's open to you.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Oh, if you're friendly and mixed with all kinds of people, that's a, that's a long winded way of saying you're fault.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] His comments explained why detectives were focused exclusively on her personal life, and how a large, diverse social circle can present some kind of complicated challenge when you're trying to identify a suspect. Like, don't be friends. But also if you read between the lines a little more,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He was just trying to warn women that being sexually liberated was gonna have tragic consequences. Oh yea, you don't even need to read between the lines. No you really don't. He's like, here it is.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Prove to be valuable because it produced the first viable lead.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Investigators had discovered a report that Roseanne filed a year before she had been killed.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And this report explained that a man she had taken home one evening had actually slapped her in the face after they got into an argument and she was able to get him out of her apartment luckily and went right down to the police to report this.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] According to the investigator, she had only filed the report, quote, to frighten him off, but the assault resulted in a conviction


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I can understand why they thought that. Oh, I 100% understand that, but that's, it's just so infuriating that it's like, you did something terrible.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So while detectives were chasing down that kind of, it was pretty flimsy to be honest, that flimsy revenge killing motive, a few of the people who had been at Tweeds and Golden Hatch, they started coming forward with descriptions of the man that they had last seen with Roseanne.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But the detectives hoped that they would be able to come up with a composite sketch for this guy so that they could track this guy down and start talking to him.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Set up a tip line urging anybody with information to call and leave an anonymous message, they circulated the composite drawing of the potential witness to the media, and they insisted to everybody, they were like, this guy is not a suspect, he is going to lead us to our suspect, so please know that. There you go.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So nearly a week had passed since the discovery of Roseanne's body, but all the police had to work with were some vague descriptions of generic white men in their early thirties. That helps. It doesn't. That'll narrow it down. The forensic, that'll narrow it down. Lots of, lots of generic white men in their early thirties really narrowing the focus.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, so the forensic team search of the apartment really didn't turn up anything significant. And the man who had assaulted her almost a year earlier that I was talking about.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He had a quote unquote loctite alibi for the night of her murder.


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[Assistant] So under the circumstances, the sketch was their best and really their only chance at catching Roseanne's killer.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And they were about to get a very lucky break. Oh damn. Yes.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] On the morning of January 7th, Geary Geist, no, excuse me, Geary Guest, actually, walked down to the newspaper box on the corner. Not like Willie Geist. No, no, different. No way. Very different, ma'am. Very different. This is Geary Guest. Hi, Willie Geist. Hi, Willie. I think he listens, right? I don't know. Or no, did he like your book? Uh, no, it wasn't him, it was, uh,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It was something else. It was somebody else, yea. Anyways. I was like, wait, who was it? We're not talking about Willy, we're talking about Gary. I was just saying hi to Willy.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] If I did that. If I did that shit. If I did that shit. If I was out there on the New York Times. Okay, so this New York Times, written in large print, eight columns across, the headline read, Police issue a sketch of witness they hope will identify. Killer of teacher.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The sketch looked incredibly generic and probably fit the description of thousands of men in Manhattan alone. I'd say so. But regardless of whether anybody could identify the sketch, he knew the drawing was of him. Gary. Geary.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] John. John Wayne Wilson. Wait, is his name Gary or Geary? It's Geary. Like Geary, okay, like G-E-A-R-Y. G-E-A-R-Y, Geary. Okay, yeah.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And around 10.30 or 11, he said, you know what? He, personally, Geary, decided he had had enough to drink.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And he suggested to John that they head back to his apartment where John was staying while he was in town. Oh, so he was even trying to get John out of there. But John Wilson, however, had just started talking with a young red haired woman at the bar and he didn't want to leave.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So he was like, no, Gary, go on without me. And the next day...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] John literally told Gary that he had gone home with the woman, they smoked some weed, they started to have sex, but then she began berating and mocking him when he was unable to get an erection.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So from the moment he heard the story, Gary wasn't sure what to make of it. He had known John Wayne Wilson for years, and he felt like John wasn't the type of person who was capable of flying into a rage and murdering somebody.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It's like, okay, Geary, so John isn't the kind of guy, he's not the kind of fella that's gonna straight up murder someone. Is he the kind of fella who normally comes home and says like,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, I believe that in every sense of the word. When people show you or tell you who they are.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Believe those motherfuckers. Because they're showing you for a goddamn reason. Okay Gary, he told you what he did. You should have gone to the police and let them sort it out. Totally.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But the, so he was like, I don't think he's the kind of guy that could do that. But then he started seeing the reports about the teachers, the teacher who had been murdered, and he said that he had become quote, frightened all along about how this whole thing would turn out.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Struggled with it that hard, but I've never gone through it, so I don't know. Cause again, it's like he's either the kind of person


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] They sat in the living room and Gary explained the entire situation and his lawyer explained that he could indeed be indicted for obstruction of justice, destruction of evidence, being an accessory after the fact, being an accomplice to the crime itself. Like he was, he was facing a lot of shit here. You got a big storm coming. Honey, you got a big storm coming.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That's what the lawyer said. He said, as far as I see it, you have three options. You can go on the run.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] As your lawyer, I suggest the latter. Yeah, I'm gonna go ahead and tell you to do that last one. Yes. So his lawyer placed it, Gary agreed, he was like, I think that's what I need to do. And he, the lawyer called the district attorney's office and explained the situation, careful not to mention any names.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Hopefully I never find myself in this situation. Yeah, no. I don't think I would because I don't really have that many friends.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Peace and love to Dorinda. Peace and love to Dorinda. So a few days later, he sat down with the detectives, Gary and Gary, it's hard to say, and he told them everything he knew about the murder. He said exactly what he knew and the level of detail included


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] They would be actually joined there a short time later by nine other NYPD officers. Oh damn. And in the meantime, Captain McMahon, asshat McGee, called the authorities in Springfield and brought them up to speed on what was happening.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So back at home with two detectives, Gary actually received a call from Wilson and was able to confirm for the investigators that Wilson would be at his brother's house in Indiana and he knew where that was.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So. It's a set up. It's a walk off. It's a walk off. Now in the year that followed, Gary would actually struggle with a lot of guilt and a lot of shame. He felt like he had betrayed his friend, which


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But I can understand why it might feel that way. They had been best friends for a long time and now he did the right thing, but he feels like he made a mistake.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Sure. He didn't, but I can understand why you would feel that way. I can understand that it sucks to be in that situation. Yeaah. But like you shouldn't feel guilt, he literally brutally murdered a woman. Exactly, but his guilt got so bad that he was having nightmares, he went to a psychiatrist on multiple occasions.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And on New Year's Eve at 1973, he actually flew to San Francisco.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And I'm happy that he was able to kind of get like a second chance. Yeaah, I'm glad that he was able to move forward and be like, I did the right thing. With a clear conscious. Yeaah, cause don't let fucking this piece of shit John have your...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I have guilt. Hell no. Like no, he's not worth it. Uh-uh. So on January 9th, Detective John Lafferty and Patrick Toomey arrived in Indianapolis and they arrived at the home of John Wayne Wilson's brother a little after nine in the morning and they were able to arrest John without incident. Good. The investigators spent almost all day talking with him.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He had inconsistent employment, he lived everywhere, and he had a notable criminal history. In May of 1969 he was arrested in Florida for disorderly conduct. He was convicted and served 10 days in jail.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] On June 1st, 1969, so like pretty much right when he was arrested.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So Lafferty and Toomey, those detectives, they returned to New York with John Wilson the following day, a little after 3.30 and he was taken to the 20th precinct where he was formally booked for the first degree murder of Roseanne Quinn.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Once he was booked and photographed, he was taken before a judge in criminal court. He was indicted and he was ordered held without bail pending a psychiatric evaluation.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So his arrest generated a ton of curiosity among the press and the public. For one thing, it was significant for somebody so young that his criminal history consisted mostly of petty theft and nonviolent crime. To suddenly escalate like this? Exactly. Like that's wild.


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[Assistant] Family and friends described him as an easygoing and didn't care kind of guy, but they said he was never violent. Like this was insane to them. Wow.


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[Assistant] But that being said, his father told reporters that on two occasions, he and his wife, like so his parents, had actually become concerned enough about his mental health that they took him to the Madison State Hospital for an evaluation. Two times. Oh, okay. But both times he said quote, nothing was found wrong with the boy.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So emotional difficulties and poor interpersonal skills continued for Wilson into his late teens and early twenties.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] In 1969, he actually got married to a woman named Kathy and he had two children with her before divorcing. Oh, this man's a father? Yep, in 1971, but he abandoned his children. Of course he did. He left them and he married again in March of 1972, this time to a 17 year old named Candy.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Who he was still married to at the time of his arrest.


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[Assistant] So the absence of a history of violence or aggression in his past actually only served to deepen the mystery and baffle the press and public as to what the fuck could have happened to transform him, this seemingly mild-mannered man, into a rage-fueled killer. Like they were like, what the fuck, like that can just happen?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now investigators, and this is nuts, they actually developed kind of a fondness for him.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Like they, it reminded me of the case that you just covered, the Clutter family murders. Yeaah.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] They like felt for him. One detective later said, I guess we all felt a bit protective of him. I told him he could put his coat up over his head and hide from the photographer. Guys.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I think it speaks so much to the time that they were in. It was like, yeah, I know you murdered that girl, but it really sucks that you're going on trial for it. Why don't you hide your face? But we'll plaster her face in every newspaper and talk about


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And so yea, so he's, like the, the detective told him he could hide, and Wilson insisted he was gonna take it like a man, he said. Oh yea? Like...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] This isn't some kind of test for your manliness. You're here because you killed a woman. Take it like a man. But still, even the district attorney Frank Hogan, who never, excuse me, who made a point of never developing any kind of opinion of the individuals that he was prosecuting,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He said Wilson was pleasant enough and very cooperative, but at the same time noted that he had no feelings, no remorse. He didn't care. He didn't care about anything. So it's very easy to be pleasant and cooperative when you're fucking a robot. Yeah, of course he was.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He's remorseless and emotionless. Exactly. Easy. It's just bananas. I love how it's like highlighting his good points. It's just crazy that they're like,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He was taken from the 20th precinct to the Manhattan House of Detention for Men, which is otherwise referred to as The Tombs. Oooh. And he would sit there while he awaited his trial date. Damn.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So about one month after his arrest in Indiana, his lawyers, John Lanuzzi and Aaron, uh, Hafe, I believe, filed a motion with the Supreme Court Justice, who at the time was Gerald P. Culkin.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So the pretrial hearing was set for February 15th and their client had actually recently undergone a psychiatric evaluation. And among other things, the psychiatrist actually diagnosed Wilson as schizophrenic, homicidal, and suicidal. Oh wow.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] His days were filled with a whole lot of nothing. He just kind of sat in his cell and didn't really talk to anybody, kept to himself. Sometimes he would get a call from his mom or a letter from Candy or sometimes old cellmates would write to him, but he insisted that he didn't want anybody to visit him. He wouldn't take any visitors. Wow.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So on Friday, May 4th, he was released after a two week stay at Bellevue Hospital where he was being evaluated prior to his mental competency hearing.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But rather than return him to his individual cell on the 10th floor in the psychiatric ward,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] administrators, they would later claim that the 10th floor was overcrowded.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So the guards returned him to a shared cell on the fourth floor, which housed the general population.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The next day, a little afternoon, he actually ended up getting in an argument with the guard on duty, uhm, when he asked for fresh sheets. The guard yelled at him for several minutes and then went to get the sheets and threw them at him, I guess, through an opening in the cell, and the guard walked away.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Wilson started preparing the sheets in a way where he could use them to end his life.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] All around him the other inmates who could see what was going on in the shared cell yelled cut up, cut up, cut up, which is like yelling at the guards about what's happening. And the two guards on duty, they could hear the inmates yelling, but they took their sweet time to reach the cell. I think they knew what was happening. I think that happens a lot.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Wilson was actually still alive when they got to the cell and they cut him down. He had been, he had hanged himself, but by the time he was able to be cut down and they laid him out on the floor, he was dead. So he had successfully ended his life.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] His suicide actually was the sixth to occur in city jails that year.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Whoa. They didn't. They did not. He was at the 10th floor of the tombs for the reason. Yea, that's the psychiatric floor. Exactly.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And it simultaneously robbed the Quinn family of justice. Yeah, absolutely. His death and the administrative fallout kept the story in papers for a few more weeks, but eventually the story just faded out of the spotlight. Yeah. And it would stay out of the spotlight for a few years, but then it got revived in an unexpected way.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] She was asked by the editors to curate an upcoming edition that was dedicated exclusively to women's issues. So among those asked to contribute to the issue were a novelist, or excuse me, was a novelist Judith Rosner. And she wanted to contribute an article about Roseanne's murder a few years earlier actually.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But Rosner, she was really, she really wanted to get the story out there. So she decided. Yes, persistent. So she decided to actually develop her article into a fictional account of the story, which she later published as the novel Looking for Mr. Goodbar.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That's what this is based off of. I've never seen it. Have you? No, I haven't seen it. Have you? None of us have seen it.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It's their fault, but it's like, we're definitely not going to look at or try to remedy the man problem there. Like, we're definitely not going to touch that. We're going to say,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Women who do this are in danger. That's like, okay, so can we, can we take a little like,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] How we're allowing them to act, it's wild to me. Yeah, no, it's insane. Just like the press, the investigators before, Rosner, Ebert, and everybody else with similar understandings of her story completely overlooked the fact that Roseanne's murder could have been avoided


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Had John Wayne Wilson not murdered her. Exactly. Like that's all it comes down to. That's what kills me. Like we don't look at that, we look at what she did to get murdered and it's like, no, no, no, can we just talk about how like he probably shouldn't be a murderer? Yeah.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That, that would be the thing that would fix all of this? Exactly, and the thing is, it's easy to kinda like dismiss this, and I actually am guilty of doing it throughout this episode, we're dismissing the victim blaming and the slut shaming comments as like,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Old fashioned and it's such a product of its time. It's not though. But that conversation is still happening to this day.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] In 1973, just to like end this, Roseanne Quinn's life held such promise. She had such a bright future ahead of her. She found a way into a career that she loved, working with deaf children. She found her way into a great group of friends who appreciated her, accepted her for who she was.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The traditional patriarchal structure. Yeaah. And she was willing to do so.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But back then and even fucking today, people are still judging her and all of us good time gals like her. All of us good time gals. All of us good time gals. It's a bunch of crap is what it is. It's a bunch of malacky, it's a bunch of bullshit and it really bums me out because she seemed like such a cool girl and just to have this be like the mark that she left


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I don't think that's what she would have wanted. No, and it sucks. Like that sucks that this is all that gets talked about and that that movie was made that kind of


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Further push that narrative. I know and I love Diane Keaton. She's my girl. I do too. But now I want to watch it just to kind of like see it for myself. I hate it.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Kind of furthering the narrative that it was her fault. Exactly. And that sucks. Exactly. It's a really sad case overall. That's a really sad case. Yeah, I feel like she was just brutalized in life and in death. Yeah, truly.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It's like they didn't let her rest. So stop judging people is the moral of the story. Yeah, don't judge people.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Like, women are the victims of that crime. Yeaah. So R.I.P. Rosanne. I know. And uhm, guys, we hope you keep listening. And we hope you keep it weird! But not so weird that you blame a girl for her own death when really it was the motherfuckers fault who killed her. Yeaah, don't do that. Love you, bye. Bye!


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Hey Prime members, you can listen to Morbid early and ad free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today, or you can listen ad free with Wondery Plus and Apple podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey at Wondery.com slash survey.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Thank you. Thank you so much. I know me and Drew were talking about Caleb last night and he was like, I miss Caleb. I was like, you could probably tell him that and he would just get on a plane or like start driving truthfully. Yeah.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Honestly, I wouldn't be able to host him right now because my spare bedroom is literally filled to the brim with laundry. And then this weekend we were like, oh, we're going to do that laundry. Like, let's start it. Oh no, we did. We started to. And then my wash machine made this noise. It said,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You know? Yeah, well it kinda goes along with this story. I feel like you need to have like a hard way about you. Like gunk in the throat.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Well, I'm worried about how you're going to react to this story then because there's actually a Tommy in this and he's like one of the main culprits. Today we're going to talk about the Glasgow Ice Cream Wars.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Not, not completely. No, no, not really. There's a few little errant differences there. Yeah, you know what? You're right.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But it all started with Andrew, quote unquote, Fatboy Doyle. And that was like a term of endearment. So I'm not, I'm not calling him that. That's what his family called him. And it was like a loving term. So I'm going to stick with it. It was a, it was a nickname. It was a nickname. So this is Andrew Fatboy Doyle. He took over the lucrative ice cream van route in Glasgow's Rucasey. I believe I'm saying that right.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Like many ice cream van drivers in the late 70s and 80s, Glasgow, in Glasgow, go. Fuck. It's throwing me off.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Go to Glasgow. But like many of those drivers, he knew that there was more money to be made selling illegal goods on ban routes.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He wasn't into like the whole drug thing of it, he didn't want to do that, but he wanted a route of his own to sell what he wanted to sell.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] We're not gonna let their territory go without a fight. They were very intent on holding down their businesses, they didn't want to let newcomers in, and they would stop at absolutely fucking nothing to make that clear.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] They started attacking van drivers, they started attacking customers at certain points.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now this war, quote unquote war, would conclude in April of, uh, 1984. But it didn't end with, like, somebody waving a white flag and being like, you know,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It literally ended with a fiery blaze and with six members of the Doyle family being brutally, brutally murdered.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Damn. All over an ice cream van route. Holy shit. Yea. The Glasgow...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I did that right now. You did it right? Yeah, you got it. The Glasgow Ice Cream Wars and the murder of the Doyle family really obviously outraged the Scottish public and they demanded that the authorities do whatever was necessary to bring an end to this whole gang war that kind of started and at this point it was just overrunning the streets.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But the police, obviously wanting all this activity to end, they quickly arrested six men for the murders.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Neither did I. Neither did I. Well, two of those six men were sent to prison for life for the mass murders of the Doyle family.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] They were feeling the pressure, or it seems like anyway, they were feeling the pressure and they needed to put some amount of people in prison.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But let's head back to the 70s for the sake of the story. Let's do it. So throughout the 1970s, the Scottish government started clearing out what were known, it's not a nice thing to say, but what were known back then as the slums of Glasgow.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And they were relocating the residents to newly constructed high-rise, uh, housing estates like the Rukezi Housing Estate.