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[Assistant] Let's bring in McNuggets. Uhm, there were five things that jumped out to you as you were watching yesterday. I want you to, as our leader, I want you to tell us about the things that jumped out to you and have us respond to them.


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[Assistant] I don't want to talk about the injury. I was on the field. I was playing. That meant I was healthy enough to be out there.


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[Assistant] It was my decision to be out there. I made the decision to play. It is all on me. I wear that like a bad suit now. Honestly, when it's all said and done and he writes his autobiography, I'm not sure he will, I would hope that he would fall on that sword and say,


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[Assistant] The Cleveland experiment went bad because of my stubbornness.


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[Assistant] I was ready to go forward with Baker Mayfield as my quarterback.


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[Assistant] Because I love honesty and transparency. I wish you would have came out and said, I love playing for the Cleveland Browns. We had exciting times there. I hate the way they did me at the end.


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[Assistant] Archie, it's great to see you. You look, I, I, every time I see you, I always say this and I know you're sick of hearing me, but say it, but he, he doesn't age. He's look, I mean, you look great. He looks absolutely great.


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[Assistant] Arch, we're, we're, we've been talking about obviously the Cleveland Brown situation with Deshaun Watson and I'm not gonna bring you into that whole mess, but what I want, what I'm curious to hear you say and talk about is the difference


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[Assistant] For players today, college and pro, compared to when you played with all the social media now and all of the instant connection with the fans and all of the instant feedback, good or bad,


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[Assistant] What do you make of the different eras from when you played in the 70s when you heard only stuff on the radio and the newspaper and the TV compared to now where everybody is an expert with a Twitter or an Instagram and, and it makes it a lot more difficult for these guys to sort of insulate themselves from the outside noise, don't you think?


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[Assistant] And he did play too. Uhm, Archie, I've asked you this a number of times and you're always so diplomatic and always so pleasant that you've never given me a direct answer.


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[Assistant] Eddie George comes to mind. Zeke Elliott. There have been so many. I would even hate to make a list because I'd leave five guys off of it. Aside from you.


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[Assistant] If they come back for another year, they haven't been able to pull it off, uh, winning it again.


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[Assistant] The Miami Dolphins of 1972, they were, they were the, before the Patriots did it, they were the last team to go undefeated for a regular season. They're the only team to go undefeated and win a Super Bowl.


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[Assistant] In the Super Bowl era. And it's, I always laugh, whenever the last undefeated team loses their first game, they all get together and they do a toast.


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[Assistant] John was a legendary, bigger than life movie character. I, I, after the first time I met him, I, I thought the guy was putting it on. But that, every time I would talk to him, that's how he was. Bigger than life character, one of the fun, most fun people you'll ever know. McNuggets has a question for you? No, I got a little


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[Assistant] The great Archie Griffin, and I gotta tell you, um, it really was, I joked, but it was fun to see a Buckeye great and a Wolverine great sit there on our show with all smiles.


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[Assistant] Everybody's All American is the story loosely based on his life about what happens to this ridiculous college talent.


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[Assistant] Who just never made it in life, business, or the NFL. Yeaah. And it's a tremendous movie. Dennis Quaid plays Billy Cannon and uhm, it's really good. I recommend that too if you're into sports movies.


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[Assistant] Exactly. Yeah, they're soft now. No question about it. Game's changed. Hey, we gotta let you go, Leroy. Leroy, you're the best.


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[Assistant] I feel like this segment begs for us to solicit viewer comments.


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[Assistant] I was thinking last night about, uh, being a kid and my excitement of watching Archie Griffin play football. I was wheelhouse. I was nine years old when he was a player at Ohio State.


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[Assistant] Uhm, he was my first real sports hero. And there's a saying in life,


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[Assistant] Be careful what you wish for. I've had a lot of people tell me, yeah, it's not cool when you meet your hero because often times it's a huge let down.


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[Assistant] And I have seen many, many, many times where young kids or even young adults have had that opportunity to meet their hero and I've been witness to it and I've seen how that hero responds and I, and I always feel badly for the person that idolized whoever this is. I won't even say any of the names.


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[Assistant] But when I met Archie the first time, I was a young broadcaster. I had just gotten my first job back in Ohio. I had come from Hartford, Connecticut. I took the job at Channel 10 in Columbus.


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[Assistant] And I met him at a golf tournament. And he didn't know me yet from television because I was only on the air like two weeks when I met him.


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[Assistant] And Archie, all I did was I said Archie, you were my favorite player when I was 10 years old.


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[Assistant] I've been a huge fan my whole life. He hears that a hundred times a day. Archie made me feel like I was the only


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[Assistant] Other person at that golf tournament. He treated me as I would hope every hero treats the worshipper.


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[Assistant] And he never let me down. That's why a couple times during the interview I wanted to point out that he is all class. That's Archie Griffin.


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[Assistant] He was a great guy for me to idolize and I never, I never was sorry that I had the opportunity to meet my hero because he didn't let me down. Archie, you're the best.


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[Assistant] Let me, let me jump right here, right? Because, uh, I understand what you're saying. I understand my man bulls saying, but let me just tell you something, right? I don't even if he sits out a year, right? The Browns are playing the long game, right? The long game because


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[Assistant] Do we want them this year? We obviously want them this year to help us, right? Because the window, the team is stacked. We have a window of opportunity. If you have to set out a year, it's an unforeseen.


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[Assistant] I'm not saying, I'm not saying Kevin Love was no cream of the crop top dude, right? I'm talking about top dude and top dude. Just listen, it's not disparaging Kevin. Jay, I've been around top dude. Yeah, he's not one of them. Kevin Love ain't one of them.


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[Assistant] I played with five of the top 75. Don't talk to me about that. I just wasn't top five. He was a bad dude.


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[Assistant] First of all, your, your argument is semantics because yeaah, they're not like the basketball players that have guaranteed deals all the way, all through their years.


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[Assistant] See, I don't, I don't always equate it to the money, right? It's the timing of when deals come about. They must see that he has some upside here, right? No, no, seriously. I'm being serious here because people here get paid all sports based on potential.


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[Assistant] I do. I've been hearing about that for six years. No, no, but here, here, I need one here. We can't do six years. We got a guy that couldn't sling the ball. So I can't tell, right? So I'm almost, I'm a few times.


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[Assistant] They're going, they're going for, they're going for immediate injunction. For real. They could. Yeaah.


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[Assistant] Okay, I'm just telling you. All right. All right. So I'm saying so what is what is so I I'm saying by I'm saying by


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[Assistant] The first to second week of August, this thing is done, right? That's what, that's what I, what I think is going to happen.


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[Assistant] We don't know. She's had the brief for over a week. The one thing I know is this. She's going to take her time because she know all eyes are on her. That's right.


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[Assistant] If you start hearing drippings come from some camp about the direction she's going and the league sounds like it's going to be on the other side of it. Let's go ahead and talk to you.


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[Assistant] I have to, I have to, I have to counteract that, right? So there's two people in the league that want different agendas. To your point here, right? You say, she's 25, you judge, blah, blah, blah, right here.


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[Assistant] Before the player wouldn't when I forgot who got hurt. I thought Gene Banks and somebody got hurt and they were like, they told him we're not paying you.


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[Assistant] Right. So that scared everybody from playing, right? Right. So now the players are back in control. They're like, I'm going over to have me some fun. We used to go down those things in Chicago. It'd be 6,500 7,000 people in the summer league and it would be the funnest time you could ever have whooping and if you got any if you got any love for the game.


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[Assistant] Jordan be down there, Isaiah Thomas, Mark Aguayo.


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[Assistant] And when you in that building because you just play with the street guys regular guys, right?


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[Assistant] And so the ship has sailed on the public opinion, right? This is etched in stone. He ain't clearing nothing, right? But that should be irrelevant. No, no, but I'm saying, but to her point where she's talking about what he wants to do where you want to be is that I don't think the chance you get near is ever going to get there, right? So completely clearing his name.


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[Assistant] But I thought you did nothing wrong. I'm sure the Texans could have fought some post-war. Right, right, right.


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[Assistant] When they got Stafford here, they were still short. They say Beckham got you and then they went and got the linebacker from Denver.


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[Assistant] Cause we got four different opinions here, right? And you, you probably...


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[Assistant] Most liberal, most conservative when it comes to talking about how this thing was constructed. I'm fiscally conservative.


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[Assistant] I don't think, I don't think IU's ever played at Hinkley. No.


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[Assistant] There aren't many missteps. That was awful. No, no, let's get the facts. Right. The Seattle mayor and Seattle City Council play overplayed their hand with the sock. That deal was there to be done. All right. We're not.


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[Assistant] Did you ever see Rucker when the highlights when Dr. J played at Rucker? Pee Wee Kirkland. Oh, it was just unbelievable. The crowd.


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[Assistant] Okay, let's get to my final take, which is this. 35, 36 years ago. I gotta bring this thing to a head. I'm reading about it.


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[Assistant] There's a problem, two of my former teammates and friends of mine seem to be still going at it.


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[Assistant] Michael Jordan and Isaiah Thomas arguing about this freaking all-star game that MJ swears he was done the big freeze-out on. And I'm like, are we still talking about that?


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[Assistant] Are we still bothered by that? Not a funny thing. I've said, I've said this on, uh, uh, uh, on record. I think with the left athletic. If they were, I know they were different teams, but I think if they were in close, close proximity one another, they'd be friends.


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[Assistant] I like, we still argue about nonsense.


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[Assistant] You got, everybody's got, matter of fact, your kids are grown.


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[Assistant] And we're still talking about this game. What difference did it make? Look how much money everybody's made here.


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[Assistant] It's just like when The Last Dance came out, my other good teammate, friends, Horace Grant and Scottie Pippen are bothered by this show and I'm like, I was talking to Horace, I'm like Horace, relax. That was a long time ago.


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[Assistant] Why are you still on this? And some things just seem to still stay under their skin. I like, and one day my hope is that we all can move past these things and just sometimes relish in the moment.


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[Assistant] We had a great run. Everybody here had a great run. There was nobody got diminished here. And just enjoy that because.


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[Assistant] Here, truth be told, we're all closer to the end than the beginning. That's true.


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[Assistant] He said he didn't do it. I had when I was with my plan with him in Detroit. He said he didn't do it now. M swears. He did it right and I like.


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[Assistant] Well, the one thing I know, Em can carry a grunt. Yes he can.


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[Assistant] Ah, parole. Ah, this don't beat all. Ah, see, I'm gonna be an uncle soon.


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[Assistant] Won't you say a few words, Casey? I ain't a preacher no more, you know. We know, but ain't none of our folks ever been buried without a few words.


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[Assistant] Didn't you sleep none? Was grandma bad?


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[Assistant] Sure don't look man too prosperous. Wanna go somewhere else?


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[Assistant] We gotta get out of here right away. What's the matter? The guy down in the Willis is telling me some of them pool room fellas are figuring on burning the whole camp out tonight. We gotta get the truck loaded. Ma?


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[Assistant] Not much, but we had it. You think Pa's gonna give up his meat on a, on a...


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[Assistant] You ain't gonna tell me the fellas that are running the camp are just fellas campin' here?


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[Assistant] Camp I was in before eh, Bernadotte. Deputies and some of them prurum fellas.


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[Assistant] You hide somebody that's killed a guy and you're in trouble too.


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[Assistant] What a place. I'd like to walk across it.


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[Assistant] I don't think you're gonna look up Anderson at all. Barrett, do you think you're gonna look up Anderson? No, Joe. Not Anderson. Uh, tell you what. I've got a car and nothing to do for a while. Let's go see Anderson together. Any objections?


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[Assistant] You got yourself a sense of humor, Eddie. You think you come back here with a dumb look and a silver star? That changes with no good heel? But I'm trying to tell you that... You don't have to tell us anything about yourself. We've got it all down in black and white.


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[Assistant] I've gotta get out of here. I've gotta get out. Five years ago we hustled you out of town for good. Now what are you here for?


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[Assistant] That's probably the first honest thing you've ever said. Pick up your things.


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[Assistant] Be Eddie Rice in some other town, but not here. Now we can't hold you, but you step out of line once, and we step on you.


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[Assistant] I figured you would. I was saving you for last. Should I, uh, relax or call in my lawyer? That depends on how nervous you are. I always thought nervous guys bit their nails. Now let me see. Nick was a little bit hazy about who Jane Doe was. I thought you might be able to tell me. Never heard of the girl. Then there's Petey.


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[Assistant] And I got a hunch he'll be real cooperative. You see, uh, I don't think he knows anything about this. Kelly, he's gone and gotten himself killed.


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[Assistant] And it won't be any manslaughter charge and out in two years. I put you away this time. It'll be for keeps.


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[Assistant] Williams Homicide. Yeah, Barnes? Uh-huh, yeah.


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[Assistant] I'm interested in Eddie Riccardi, not in what's going on in there. We don't know from Riccardi. I do, open up.


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[Assistant] And after we pick up Riccardi, we're going down to police headquarters. You're gonna have a manicure on me.


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[Assistant] You know, you're gonna look awful silly when I get through with you. If I'm wrong, I'll apologize.


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[Assistant] Just a minute, baby. I'd like a little receipt for that grant.


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[Assistant] Vince, we're at the shop. Do we stay or bring Riccardi up there?


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[Assistant] You phone the cops and do them a favor. Where to find a dead cop, and the guy that did it, and what happens.


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[Assistant] Todd, you can go home now. Your friend want a ride? Not tonight.


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[Assistant] But Vince, appreciate the fact at least I called you. I let him stay, it's another wrap. Another wrap I get life. You've got to appreciate that.


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[Assistant] Of every care which a loving benefactress could lavish upon her. Come here, little girl.


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[Assistant] No sight so sad as that of a wicked child. Do you know where the wicked go after death?


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[Assistant] But children younger than you die daily. Only last week, we buried a little child of five.


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[Assistant] My estate lies within a mile, and as chairman of the board, I spend much time on its supervision. Would you like to go there, little girl?


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[Assistant] It was your kind benefactress who suggested the plan. You wish to go?


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[Assistant] Who would believe that the evil one had already found in her a servant and an agent? Yet such, I grieve to tell you, is the case. Therefore, you must be on your guard against her. Shun her example. Avoid her company. Exclude her from your sports. And shut her out from your converse. Teachers, you must watch her.


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[Assistant] So this is the spirit that prevails at Lowood. First vanity, and now insurrection. It shall be rooted out.


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[Assistant] With your leave, Dr. Rivers, I shall offer up one more prayer. Almighty God, look down upon this miserable sinner and grant that the sense of her weakness may give strength to her faith and seriousness to her repentance. Amen.


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[Assistant] True gentlemen, we had some difficulties in the beginning. A very stiff necked and evil child. Fadair's been with us ten years.


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[Assistant] And in those ten years it has been granted me to plant my feet in the path of salvation.


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[Assistant] I intended that you should. Let air be brought in.


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[Assistant] Little did I imagine that the unregenerate child I received into this institution would grow in ten short years to become a teacher. Yes, a teacher.


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[Assistant] Your wages will be 20 kines per annum, from which only 10 will be withheld for board and lodging for spiritual instruction and laundry. Your duties will begin on the first day of the new term. I need to tell you no longer, gentlemen.


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[Assistant] I see that I've been sadly deceived in you. And where may I ask do you intend to go?


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[Assistant] And you know how the world treats young paupers without friends or connections?


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[Assistant] The whole of Japan was involved in wars. Treachery was rampant and nobody trusted his neighbor.


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[Assistant] Every class of person, noble or humble, uses a fan throughout the whole kingdom.


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[Assistant] People who have business matters and other things which they wish to remember write them down on their fans. They are always carrying these fans about in their hands, opening them, shutting them, and looking at them. Nobody would go out into the street without one.


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[Assistant] They greatly wondered that our big and long noses, thick beards and red or fair hair, and considered all these things as so many defects.


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[Assistant] Walk along the path through the wood up to the teahouse quietly contemplating everything they see.


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[Assistant] They remove their fans and daggers and deposit them in a kind of cupboard placed there outside for that purpose.


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[Assistant] This gathering for tea and conversation is not intended for lengthy talk, but rather to contemplate within their souls.


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[Assistant] With all peace and modesty, the things that they see there.


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[Assistant] Bessie. Yes, I'm Bessie. If you're looking for work, we haven't got no work for no one nowadays. You look poorly, lass. If you're cold, you're welcome to sit by the fire.


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[Assistant] Don't want to see him. I don't want to see anyone. No, don't be foolish. You can't live all alone like the man on the moon. I'll sit with the missus. Run along now. He's waiting.


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[Assistant] When children were taken as hostages, it did not mean prisoners.


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[Assistant] This was all part of the political negotiation in which alliances had to be formed because no one trusted no one else. So there had to be a guarantee and therefore the hostage was used.


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[Assistant] When you took a hostage in a certain class, they were usually treated very cordially and they were given education.


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[Assistant] He probably had a very stoic, spartan kind of education.


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[Assistant] Taught military skills, martial arts, and Chinese classics, Japanese classics.


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[Assistant] The entire life of Yes was that of patience and forbearance, people say.


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[Assistant] In crisis, they'll have to be prepared to kill themselves rather than be shamed, disgraced by the enemies.


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[Assistant] Whether to go along with the hosted family but at all times he never forgot


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[Assistant] His ambition to go back to his original castle and to regain all the territory that his father's family had and to expand that.


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[Assistant] Those people who are in the castle would wash their heads and they would put some cosmetics on the face of the dead corpses.


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[Assistant] Because they were proof of having killed someone important.


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[Assistant] That was part of the, very small part of what they did, which is inconceivable.


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[Assistant] Cherry blossoms are often compared to the samurai.


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[Assistant] They're a beautiful sight, like the warrior in his shiny armor, but it takes only one big storm for the petals to fall to the ground, just like the warrior in battle.


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[Assistant] Firstly because they had to get the permission of the household who usually thought they would be better cleaning and cooking. And women's travel permits were much more elaborate.


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[Assistant] But Kempfer was fascinated by the opportunity to write about something, and nobody else could get access to.


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[Assistant] The only time Kemper really saw Japan was when he traveled from Nakazaki to Edo, which was the Shogun's capital.


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[Assistant] For Togugawa society where the samurai were the top class.


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[Assistant] After we'd been in Japan five or six days, came a Portugal Jesuit who reported that we were pirates. We looked always that we should be set upon crosses, which is the execution of this land. I looked every day to die.


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[Assistant] He asked me diverse questions of my religion and what way we came to the country.


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[Assistant] From one thing to another, I abode with him till midnight.


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[Assistant] I desire that we might have trade with your country, the same as the Portuguese and Spaniards.


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[Assistant] I answered that I was no carpenter and had no knowledge thereof.


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[Assistant] Well, do your endeavor, saith he. If it be not good, it is no matter.


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[Assistant] And I have got them trading privileges as the Spaniards and Portugals could never get in their 50 years in Japan.


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[Assistant] No one dares to attempt any opposition to the will of the Shogun.


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[Assistant] Whatever injustice the shogun may commit or into whatever extravagance of excesses he may plunge, they praise or approve of all.


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[Assistant] With every step, they kick up their heels nearly to their backsides, and at the same time thrust the opposite arm forward. It looks as if they're spinning in the air.


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[Assistant] The shogun is a great enemy to the name of Christians.


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[Assistant] I saw 55 martyred because they would not forsake their Christian faith.


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[Assistant] And amongst them there were little children of five or six years old, burned in their mother's arms, crying out, Jesus, receive their souls.


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[Assistant] A few days after the outbreak, the Christians joined the farmers. They cry out throughout the whole country that the time had now come to revenge the innocent blood of so many Christians and priests, and that they are prepared to die for their faith.


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[Assistant] We are strictly and strongly guarded from the inside and the outside by various guards treating us not like honest men, but like criminals, traitors, spies, prisoners, or to say the least, hostages of the Shogun. This jail goes by the name of Dejima.


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[Assistant] I served them willingly and without charge in my profession with medicines, while cordially serving them European liqueurs. I questioned them about local matters, nature, secular and spiritual topics with total freedom.


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[Assistant] Indeed, at certain times of the year, they are as crowded as the streets of a populous European city.


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[Assistant] The reason for these crowds is partly that the Japanese travel more often than other people.


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[Assistant] Each attaches herself to one particular traveler, starts up a rustic tune,


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[Assistant] Booksellers, glassblowers, pharmacists, and people crying out their wares.


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[Assistant] Outside tables also have a variety of biscuits of different colors and shapes on display. They are pretty to look at.


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[Assistant] The Shogun's residence is spacious with many long corridors and large rooms, which can be closed off by sliding partitions.


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[Assistant] According to the finest design of Japanese traditions, the ceilings, beams and pillars, patterned by nature, covered with lacquer or carved and gilded artistically into patterns of birds and foliage.


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[Assistant] After we had been drilled for two hours, he ordered us to take off our cloaks, to dance, to jump, to play the drunkard, to speak broken Japanese, to sing.


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[Assistant] At the demand of the shogun, we had to put up with providing such amusements and perform innumerable other monkey tricks.


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[Assistant] And this praise will be echoed through ages to come for these loyal retainers. We have recorded here their glory ever renewed like the leaves of the bamboo.


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[Assistant] Hello, Miss Kirk, how are you? How's the baby? The baby's fine, Mrs. Conway. Oh, she talks about you a lot. Of course.


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[Assistant] People in the Tokugawa period, they were driven by curiosity.


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[Assistant] To order the first sanctioned autopsy of a criminal's corpse for scientific study.


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[Assistant] Gradually, as knowledge of the Dutch language became more widespread,


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[Assistant] Then you've made up your mind? You're going through with it? Why not? For one thing, he's an excellent shot. So I've heard- At least try to get some sleep. And if I were you, no more cognac. We'll come for you at five, that gives you three hours. You'll be here. I don't think-


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[Assistant] I know you appreciate our support because, uh, our country's really gone all out to help. Your governor, he was giving us the highest grades. We saved a lot of lives. A real catastrophe like Katrina.


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[Assistant] And you look at the tremendous hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of people that died. What is your death count as of this moment? 16 people versus in the thousands.


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[Assistant] I'm on the same shit. Yeah, they're on the same shit. I started out smoking blunts like forever and then like slowly just went into came to Cali and then Spliffs were just like what it was I guess.


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[Assistant] It was tight like for a while there, you know, like growing up as a kid, but I only lived there till I was like 11. Oh, okay. Like I didn't even start like skating in Louisiana.


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[Assistant] To like, Minnesota. Oh, okay. Is that better or worse?


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[Assistant] Uhm, it was better, because it was more of a city for me at the time, you know, so I was able to like...


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[Assistant] Figure out skating, you know, I seen some skaters there and then got involved with that shit and, you know, and then, uh.


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[Assistant] It was, the only thing that sucked was like the cold, you know, like all the snow and all that shit.


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[Assistant] In a sense, I've lived in like a bunch of different cities randomly, like we moved a lot, you know? So like, uh, I had lived in like Reno and Colorado and, but like,


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[Assistant] The main places I had lived was like kinda like Florida, Texas, Minnesota.


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[Assistant] It's like dude, like I've been living there for like four years now, I think, like, and like I can't find myself to leave. Like I'm just super hyped on like the mid-city life, you know.


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[Assistant] All the ledges, like, but not the high ledges that go into the hill, but all the ledges, except for the front gap, the ones and shit, you know.


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[Assistant] Yeah, for sure. It's like kids like, it became like a skate park in a sense. The kids would just roll up whenever the fuck, from wherever they came from.


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[Assistant] Yeah, not for sure. Fools be hitting me upper spots, but it's just K-Town's just scattered with spots, like, retarded, like, you just kinda gotta learn. All the cutting ones. Yeah, it's all the cutting ones.


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[Assistant] I've seen them like pull up, like they have like something in the building next to Jaquan, like they just come every night like, like around 10 and just two out of a van.


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[Assistant] You still gotta have somebody dope, like, behind your, like, actual footage, you know? You still gotta be able to produce, like, a solid street part, you know what I mean? And have somebody edit it out tight, and you gotta be able to look tight doing it, you know? And crush it off, right?


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[Assistant] There's a lot of people that are on the Instagram just jugging out like fucking random edits like, which is...


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[Assistant] Shit, I'll go out like fucking four days a week if, if the, if the homies out there get like the filmers there, you know, like that. Like, you know, it's, it's been a little bit slower lately, but now that the EGK house is here, you know, we got it going on now. So we'll be.


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[Assistant] Shit, I don't know, I just fuckin', pretty much, like, just, I don't know, like,


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[Assistant] Ended, oh what it was, was uh, all my footage like had just finally dropped and I was like having like one more coming out and I had filmed up and backed up a lot of stuff, you know. Right. And then it just started all dropping off like, and then I was like, oh I'm good, like so I started like just chilling, doing my thing, partying like, you know going out to the bars with the homies and like,


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[Assistant] Like, uh, Brad wasn't in town, he was like out somewhere else, like, you know, so.


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[Assistant] For me, I'm just, I'll be alright, you know? It's like something I enjoy, you know?


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[Assistant] That's crazy. With an underscore. Oh yeaah yeaah, I actually know the kid that does that.


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[Assistant] He's the homie, dude. Yeah, they're dope. They hold down.


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[Assistant] Yeah, he's a good, he's a good person for sure. Yeah, he got the ramp in the back, he'd always be throwing barbecues, like. Yeah, man, he knows what the fuck he's at. You know what I mean? Like, he's been on fucking the block for forever. You guys haven't- He's been with WeMaps and shit.


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[Assistant] Well, like not early on, like more early on was like when I first started skating, like I looked up to like, uhm, like Steve Nesser, Clint Peterson, cause these dudes were out in like, uh,


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[Assistant] Minnesota, you know? And then when I came to Cali, like, I was always looking up to like, when I was a kid, like, the Josh K with Steve Williams, you know what I mean? Like all the heavy hookers that was like, gee.


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[Assistant] And then fucking never thought I would go out to Cali and start skating with him, you know, and then like eventually like I was like getting DC shoes and I was getting DGK boards and like I lived in SD and Kayla's lived in C. So we just started like, you know, doing our thing, skating and shit like, and he would always be like pitching, like helping out and all that, you know.


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[Assistant] Oh shit, my dad lives in Louisiana, like Baton Rouge, like still like with like my whole family. Like they live in Louisiana and then my mom and brother.


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[Assistant] They were living in like New York for a little while, and then I just recently moved them out to...


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[Assistant] Koreatown. So now they live out here now? Yeah, so now they live out here.


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[Assistant] You're hyped to get him out here? No, super sick. Like we've been like, yeah, I haven't seen him before that. I hadn't seen him really like close for like,


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[Assistant] More than like a month for like 10 years. Really? Yea, and then I didn't even see him for like years at times.


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[Assistant] The beliefs of the Wisdom Clan would have followed my whole life. You can't overturn them!


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[Assistant] So that's the ultimate Chaos Gear God complete?


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[Assistant] As members of the Chaos Three, you'll be supporting Master Wisdom's great plan.


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[Assistant] What should we do with him, Master?


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[Assistant] Inequality is the most pressing social problem facing us today.


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[Assistant] The real general finding is that inequality being a way of making people feel more distant from one another.


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[Assistant] It stretches the social fabric. It frays the social fabric. It pulls us apart from one another, physically, experientially, and psychologically.


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[Assistant] Traffic of Biohiggins, Alpha Tango Whiskey, taking off runway 34, Biohiggins.


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[Assistant] Great Expectations by Charles Dickens Chapter 48


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[Assistant] The second of the two meetings referred to in the last chapter occurred about a week after the first. I had again left my boat at the wharf below bridge. The time was an hour earlier in the afternoon.


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[Assistant] And, and decided where to dine, I had strolled up into Cheapside.


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[Assistant] I was strolling along it, surely the most unsettled person in all the busy concourse, when a large hand was laid upon my shoulder by someone overtaking me. It was Mr. Jaggers's hand, and it passed it through my arm.


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[Assistant] As we are going in the same direction, Pip, we may walk together. Where are you bound for? For the temple, I think, said I. Don't you know? said Mr. Jaggers.


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[Assistant] I returned, glad for once to get the better of him in cross-examination. I do not know, for I have not made up my mind. You are going to dine? said Mr. Jackers. You don't mind admitting that, I suppose? No, I returned. I don't mind admitting that. And are not engaged? I don't mind admitting also that I am not engaged. Then, said Mr. Jackers, come and dine with me.


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[Assistant] I was going to excuse myself when he added, Wimix coming.


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[Assistant] So I changed my excuse into an acceptance, the few words I had uttered serving for the beginning of either. And we went along Cheapside, and slanted off to Little Britain, while the lights were springing up brilliantly in the shop windows.


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[Assistant] And the street lamplighters, scarcely finding ground enough to plant their ladders on in the midst of the afternoon's bustle, were skipping up and down, and running in and out,


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[Assistant] Opening more red eyes in the gathering fog than my rush-light tower of the hum-hums had opened white eyes in the ghostly wall.


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[Assistant] At the office in Little Britain, there was the usual letter-writing, hand-washing, candle-snuffing, and safe-locking that closed the business of the day.


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[Assistant] As I stood idle by Mr. Jaggers's fire, its rising and falling flame made the two casts on the shelf look as if they were playing a diabolical game at bow-peep with me.


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[Assistant] While a pair of coarse fat office candles, a dimly lighted Mr. Jaggers as he wrote in a corner, were decorated with dirty winding sheets, as if in remembrance of a host of hanged clients.


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[Assistant] We went to Gerrard Street, all three together, in a Hackney coach. And as soon as we got there, dinner was served.


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[Assistant] Although I should not have thought of making in that place the most distant reference by so much as a look to Wemmick's Walworth sentiments, yet I should have had no objection to catching his eye now and then in a friendly way, but it was not to be done.


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[Assistant] He turned his eyes on Mr. Jaggers whenever he raised them from the table, and was as dry and distant to me as if they were twin whemmocks, and this was the wrong one.


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[Assistant] Did you send that note of Miss Havisham's to Mr. Pip, Remick?" Mr. Jackers asked, soon after we began dinner.


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[Assistant] Sent up to me by Miss Havisham on account of her not being sure of your address. She tells me that she wants to see you on a little matter of business you mentioned to her. You'll go down? Yes.


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[Assistant] Said I, casting my eyes over the note, which was exactly in those terms. When do you think of going down?


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[Assistant] I have an impending engagement," said I, glancing at Wemmick, who was putting fish into the post-office. That renders me rather uncertain of my time. At once, I think.


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[Assistant] Said Wemmick to Mr. Jaggers. He needn't write an answer, you know.


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[Assistant] Receiving this as an intimation that it was best not to delay, I settled that I would go to-morrow, and said so. Wermick drank a glass of wine, and looked with a grimly satisfied air at Mr. Jaggers, but not at me. So, Pip, our friend the Spider, said Mr. Jaggers, has played his cards. He has won the pool. It was as much as I could do to assent.


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[Assistant] Here's a promising fellow in his way, but he may not have it all his own way.


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[Assistant] The stronger will win in the end, but the stronger has to be found out first, if he should turn to and beat her. Surely, I interrupted with a burning face and heart.


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[Assistant] You do not seriously think that he is scoundrel enough for that, Mr. Jaggers? I didn't say so, Pip.


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[Assistant] I am putting a case. If he should turn to and beat her, he may possibly get the strength on his side. If it should be a question of intellect, he certainly will not. It would be chance work to give an opinion


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[Assistant] How a fellow of that sort will turn out in such circumstances, because it's a toss-up between two results. May I ask what they are? A fellow like our friend the Spider?


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[Assistant] Answered Mr. Jaggers. Either beats or cringes.


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[Assistant] Taking a decanter of choice of wine from his dumb waiter. And filling for each of us and for himself.


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[Assistant] And may the question of supremacy be settled to the lady's satisfaction, to the satisfaction of the lady and the gentleman it never will be.


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[Assistant] Now, Molly, Molly, Molly, Molly, How slow you are today.


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[Assistant] She was at his elbow when he addressed her, putting a dish upon the table. As she withdrew her hands from it, she fell back a step or two, nervously muttering some excuse. And a certain action of her fingers as she spoke, arrested my attention. "'What's the matter?' said Mr. Jaggers. "'Nothing. Only the subject we were speaking of,' said I, was rather painful to me.


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[Assistant] The action of her fingers was like the action of knitting.


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[Assistant] She stood looking at her master, not understanding whether she was free to go, or whether he had more to say to her, and would call her back if she did go. Her look was very intent.


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[Assistant] I had seen exactly such eyes and such hands on a memorable occasion, very lately. He dismissed her, and she glided out of the room. But she remained before me, as plainly as if she were still there. I looked at those hands. I looked at those eyes. I looked at that flowing hair.


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[Assistant] And I compared them with other hands, other eyes, other hair, that I knew of, and with what those might be after twenty years of a brutal husband and a stormy life. I looked again at those hands and eyes of the housekeeper, and thought of the inexplicable feeling that had come over me when I last walked, not alone, in the ruined garden, and through the deserted brewery.


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[Assistant] And it flashed about me like lightning when I had passed in a carriage, not alone, through a sudden glare of light in a dark street.


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[Assistant] I thought how one link of association had helped that identification in the theatre, and how such a link, wanting before, had been riveted for me now, when I had passed by a chance swift from Estella's name to the fingers for their knitting action, and the attentive eyes.


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[Assistant] Mr. Jaggers had seen me with Estella. I was not likely to have missed the sentiments I had been at no pains to conceal. He nodded when I said the subject was painful to me, clapped me on the back, put round the wine again, and went on with his dinner.


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[Assistant] Only twice more did the housekeeper reappear, and then her stay in the room was very short, and Mr. Jaggers was sharp with her.


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[Assistant] It was a dull evening, for Wemmick drew his wine when it came round, quite as a matter of business.


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[Assistant] Just as he might have drawn his salary when that came round, and with his eyes on his chief sat in a state of perpetual readiness for cross-examination.


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[Assistant] As to the quantity of wine, his post office was as indifferent and ready as any other post office for its quantity of letters. From my point of view, he was the wrong twin all the time, and only externally like the Wemmick of Walworth. We took our leave early, and left together.


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[Assistant] Even when we were groping among Mr. Jaggers's stock of boots for our hats, I felt that the right twin was on his way back.


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[Assistant] And we had not gone half a dozen yards down Girard Street in the Walworth direction, before I found that I was walking arm in arm with the right twin, and that the wrong twin had evaporated into the evening air.


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[Assistant] Well, said Remig, that's over. He's a wonderful man without his living likeness.


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[Assistant] But I feel that I have to screw myself up when I dine with him. And I dine more comfortably, unscrewed.


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[Assistant] I know that what you said between you and me goes no further.


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[Assistant] I asked him if he had ever seen Miss Havisham's adopted daughter, Mrs. Bentley Drummle. He said no.


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[Assistant] Do you remember telling me, before I first went to Mr. Jaggers' private house, to notice that housekeeper? Did I? He replied.


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[Assistant] Oh, what dare I say I did. Deuce-type me," he added suddenly. I know I did. I find I'm not quite unscrewed yet. A wild beast tamed, you called her. And what do you call her? The same. How did Mr. Jaggers tame a Wemek? That's his secret. She's been with him many a long year. I wish you would tell me her story. I feel a particular interest in being acquainted with it.


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[Assistant] You know that what is said between you and me goes no further."


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[Assistant] And he worked it to general admiration. In fact it may almost be said to have made him. He worked it himself at the police office.


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[Assistant] The murdered woman, more a match for the man, certainly, in point of years, was found dead in a barn near Owenslow Heath. There had been a violent struggle, perhaps a fight. She was bruised and scratched and torn, and had been held by the throat at last and choked.


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[Assistant] And on the improbabilities of her having been able to do it.


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[Assistant] You may be sure," said Rammick, touching me on the sleeve, that he never dwelt upon the strength of her hands then, though he sometimes does now.


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[Assistant] I had told Remick of his showing us her wrists that day of the dinner party. Whoa, sir! Remick went on. It happened? Happened, don't you see?


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[Assistant] This woman was so very artfully dressed from the time of her apprehension that she looked much slighter than she really was.


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[Assistant] In particular, her sleeves are always remembered to have been so skilfully contrived that her arms had quite a delicate look. She had only a bruise or two about her, nothing for a tramp, but the backs of her hands were lacerated, and the question was, was it with fingernails?


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[Assistant] Now, Mr. Jaggers showed that she had struggled through a great lot of brambles which were not as high as her face, but which she could not have got through and kept her hands out of.


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[Assistant] And bits of those brambles were actually found in her skin, and put in evidence.


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[Assistant] As well as the fact that the brambles in question were found on examination to have been broken through.


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[Assistant] And to her little shreds of her dress and little spots of blood upon them, here and there. But the boldest point he made was this.


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[Assistant] It was attempted to be set up in proof of her jealousy that she was under strong suspicion of having, at about the time of the murder, frantically destroyed her child by this man, some three years old, to revenge herself upon him. Mr. Jaggers worked that in this way.


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[Assistant] We say, these are not marks of fingernails, but marks of brembles. And we show you the brembles.


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[Assistant] And you set up that hypothesis as she destroyed her child.


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[Assistant] You must accept all consequences of that hypothesis.


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[Assistant] For anything we know, she may have destroyed her child, and the child in clinging to her may have scratched her hands. What then? You are not trying her for the murder of her child? Why don't you? As to this case, if you will have scratches, we say that for anything we know, you may have accounted for them.


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[Assistant] We exchanged a cordial good night, and I went home with new matter for my thoughts, though with no relief from the old.


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[Assistant] I have DJ Lucas from Western Massachusetts on the god damn podcast. How you doing buddy?


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[Assistant] That's an interesting concept, shouting out the DJ part as opposed to the part that comes after DJ.


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[Assistant] So a lot of people out there, I know my first experience with you was just seeing the uh, ballerina look like Jumpman video and


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[Assistant] I was actually thinking that you might be a crazy person at first and it was kinda almost unfortunate when I like looked around online and saw some interviews and stuff and realized that you're actually a pretty measured guy because there's a, there's one scene in that video and we can really get into like all the things that went on in that video but there's one scene


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[Assistant] Get out of the car and it's in a snowstorm and you close the door, but then you open the door again and continue to run towards the camera wrapping. And that I think kind of encompasses the whole DJ Lucas ethos.


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[Assistant] Okay. And so is that, is that your, your big hit in, in a lot of people's minds? Ballerina? Yea, probably. Yea. And so listen, I want to talk about the video and the whole concept behind it because there's just so many interesting visual elements going on there.


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[Assistant] Did you ever have any like really foul offensive like punk clothing fashion decisions? You ever have a butt flap? Nah. No.


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[Assistant] Side note, what do you think about a guy on a choker? It's cool. That's cool?


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[Assistant] Oh, okay. See, you have a lot of very deep references. You do good in school?


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[Assistant] It's weird, it's weird for me because now when I go back home, I see all these crazy people downtown and I realize like, oh, those are drug addicts. Like when I was a kid, I just thought, oh, there's a bunch of crazy people around downtown. They just walk around. That's just what they do.


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[Assistant] See, I know how, how quiet that area is because I used to date this girl who went to UMass Amherst. I used to go up there.


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[Assistant] It's hard for people to understand that, that like outside of Boston, outside of the major cities, there's just hundreds or thousands of small little Massachusetts, New Hampshire, Vermont, all these little towns.


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[Assistant] That's funny. But you can see that in your videos that it's very, uh, it's cool because you really, uh, represent the aesthetic of where you're from, which is kind of, you know, a lot of people, they're making music videos for YouTube, but then they don't want to show what's outside because if they show what's outside, they're going to be like, oh, I'm in the suburbs, I'm in the woods, et cetera.


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[Assistant] Wow. There's a hardcore band called Zabalba, and one of those singers has a tattoo of the singer from The Cranberries, I believe it is.


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[Assistant] Wow, someone just farted and I heard it all the way from over here. Was that girl just walking away now?


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[Assistant] Oh man, yeaah, I don't know, uhm, that is to me the big thing, is that like, do you, as a kid, like when kids ask me for advice, I want to make it. There's a part of me that wants to give them the advice, if you want to make it, move to LA or move to New York.


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[Assistant] But then there's another part of me that is starting to see another option where the internet has made us so


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[Assistant] Connected that I think that in a lot of ways there's more value in like building up your own Logo scene and being very very authentically you and then at a certain point people in LA or New York or wherever they're gonna see what you've built and they're gonna say okay, that's it. That's dope


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[Assistant] To a lot of people in the music industry or just in the music world, they're like, that's the shit. That's really cool.


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[Assistant] And so you explain what the moment was when you really started rapping because you were just making the music for a while and you were doing the punk thing but then at a certain point you decided to transition?


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[Assistant] So at what point did the Dark World name emerge, did you decide? 2011. And that was when you decided this was going to be a collective and what was the, was it a hip hop collective ideally from the beginning or was it just?


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[Assistant] Do you ever consider yourself a writer before the hip-hop thing came along? Because that to me is the real value in you as a performer. When I really look at what your true talent is, I'm like, damn, this guy can write some shit.


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[Assistant] You know, they start ignoring all the fine authors of our time.


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[Assistant] But you just, there's, the first lyric that I think ever really like jumped out at me super crazy was, uh, the one song where you're saying like, my grandpa is dead but I still hear his breath at the cemetery, he speaks to me through the fence.


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[Assistant] Right. So, so that's, to me that's like very like vivid, uh, you know, really, you're really painting a portrait there and it's the kind of thing that you just would never really, you don't hear a lot of rappers talk like that even though...


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[Assistant] They probably should. That kind of like descriptive, uh, writing I think is very beneficial to anyone.


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[Assistant] And we all, we don't really like, really have like a full concept of how much we should be sympathizing with him and what he's going through with the label shit because he really can't put music out and everything and that's pretty, like what are you really gonna do at a certain point in his life. That's why he puts on so many guest verses.


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[Assistant] Yeah, it sounds funny in retrospect, but at the time when you probably wanted to kick the shit out of him. Yeah, yeah, I know. I knew a guy who was in like, uh, like non-racist like skinhead band like back in the day and he told me that they used to like beat him up around town because he would just be like pulling his dick out in front of little kids and shit.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] No, but don't you think for a while he was just making pretty much like standard, like, you know, just punk and like for a while, like, eat me, eat you out, I want to eat you out. It's like every other punk song you ever heard, except a little bit more graphic. And then at a certain point he lost his mind.


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[Assistant] It is weird, like a lot of people don't understand that New England is a grouping of states and not a state.


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[Assistant] But do you feel much of a connection to like, Boston hip hop? Like, do you consider yourself a part of that scene in any way?


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[Assistant] But like that's like the main major city that you're nearby. So like, to what extent do you identify with that?


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[Assistant] And like, historically though, like, Boston's always had a hard time creating any kind of like real...


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[Assistant] I bought a Mr. Liff CD I think in 9th grade and I listened to it a couple of times and I did not like it.


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[Assistant] No, yeah, I mean there's like, uh, Guru from fucking Gangstar and shit, but then- But he claims New York kind of very early. Very early on, just made the move, started claiming Brooklyn. Can't really blame him, I guess, right?


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[Assistant] Do you think Boston has like a losers complex or possibly New England in general that kind of feels like they're not as good as maybe the rest of the union, the United States, or that they're not valid in hip hop?


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[Assistant] Yeah, that's why one big thing that got me excited when I first saw you coming out and stuff is I was like, oh, okay, this guy could actually speak for the disenfranchised, quite often Caucasian youths in New England who don't really see what their role could be or they don't have somebody to look to.


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[Assistant] It was the singing along to hymns and it's like every 10 minutes you gotta stand up.


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[Assistant] I just need to bring up my other favorite lyric of yours, which is the one about, uh, shout out to both of my parents, they got a beautiful marriage and I'm not embarrassed.


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[Assistant] So, what about this, and this, and this, and this, and this, and this, and this, and he compact, it was a compact.


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[Assistant] It's not easy, you know. People think doing interviews is easy, like, either being interviewed or doing the interview, and it's, there's a bit to it, you know.


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[Assistant] So you don't go past that on the drug spectrum? You don't go on to the fun, interesting stuff or no?


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[Assistant] You know what, I was bummed out when I realized that, cause I, I got put on you and I thought nobody knew about you and then I was like, fuck, he had a fader video and he was on Tori Wickie, Antoine Fox, he got songs on him, I'm like, god damn, I was late, I thought I was really on some virgin territory.


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[Assistant] Can we talk about the secret circle connection? I want to know what those guys are like, how you linked up with them.


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[Assistant] Riddle me this. He's giving me a chance. So say somebody is very, very familiar with you and then they want to get deeper into the dark world levels. Who are, in what order, what different characters should the people then start researching and learning about from you? Assuming that you're sort of like the head of the empire.


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[Assistant] If you had done a V instead of the triangle for the A in dark, then I would have been like, damn, that kinda, that kinda hurts.


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[Assistant] For what? For just showing up late too much. Just eating mad popcorn lowkey.


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[Assistant] But there's two very different ways to handle a nickname. It's either you own it and just be like, ah, cool, or you fight against it and say, no, I'm going to beat you up if you call me that.


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[Assistant] I used to be Grammy for Grand Mesa and then it was Grammy.


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[Assistant] That was before I was out, I'm 22, I was Grammy for a couple years. So.


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[Assistant] It's cool cause he said that he was sober when you hung out with him, which I have not personally ever hung out with a sober chapo. I've hung out with extremely fucked up chapo a few times, but.


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[Assistant] Do you eat most of your meals at home when you're at home? Yea, you kinda have to cause it's not like, you gotta drive down Florida, there's not that much variety. That's a problem out here, there's way too much food.


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[Assistant] As I get older, I'm more and more disgusted by the idea of those like pre-made egg things that like are coming out of plastic.


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[Assistant] I'm just going to reiterate my support for Popeyes.


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[Assistant] How do you become a beloved fast food chain? It's so crazy to me when you think about how much bad press McDonald's gets and then you don't hear that about 7-Eleven or Burger King, you know?


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[Assistant] Do you consider yourself part of a minority, an oppressed minority group as a ginger? No, absolutely not.


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[Assistant] But does it bother you in any way, like the horrible things that people have said about your culture?


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[Assistant] And your, your boots and your Timbs, you really are ready to do this in New York. Hey, why did you end up leaving New York?


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[Assistant] Yeah, the Yankees have been a little bit, you know. But wait, then the Sox only won one series like in the past forever, right?


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[Assistant] But I mean it is kind of an offensive thing in the sense that like, okay, you walk around this area, you know, I sometimes feel that way. I see fucking these fancy ass people walk around this area and it pisses me off just in the sense of like, oh, that fucking annoys me that you think that you can just walk around like it's nothing going on over here, you know?


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[Assistant] Wow. Like what? Who? My parents don't probably even know what Gucci is, but these parents are buying their kids like $2,000 outfits and shit. Like how? How?


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[Assistant] And I always tell people that too, like where I'm from in Nashville, New Hampshire, I don't know if I ever saw a hundred thousand dollar car growing up, you know?


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[Assistant] People are humble, there's no job that somebody's gonna have like where we're from that they're gonna make like an absurd amount of money. Out here, people have parents that are in Hollywood and like boom, they make five million dollars a year and they buy crazy shit all the time.


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[Assistant] Yeah, grindcore, I believe at the time. But it said in the article, like, oh, they were known for, you know, calling things gay, which was a popular slang term in Boston. And I'm like, wait a minute, that's not everywhere. And I disagree with that. I still think people say it everywhere, but it was so big.


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[Assistant] What is success for DJ Lucas and his movement at this point in time?


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[Assistant] Do you see Dark World as almost like a manifestation of like, Juggalo culture? Sort of like, trying to sink in?


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[Assistant] This is a true from the ground up movement.


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[Assistant] Straight up. Unless you're like a paraplegic, in which case you probably really can't do anything.


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[Assistant] I think I probably did too. 1993 bro. Yes, the one that had OPP on it. Of course. Ah, they probably sold 10 million of those things.


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[Assistant] I'm super opposed to that. My personal brand of Christianity is kind of all about violence.


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[Assistant] I feel like we need to keep shouting out things from New England that we wanna, I wanna shout out Eastern Border.


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[Assistant] Oh, there you go. Are you a get up kids fan? I don't know about that. You don't know about them? Oh, you gotta look up the song Mass Pike by the get up kids. Oh my god, you're gonna really like it. It's, oh god. What a banger that is, emo legendary. And you got the ballerina on you too. Are those all your tattoos?


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[Assistant] You should get the Quaker star but in red on the top of your head. Top of your head. Like Birdman.


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[Assistant] Yeaah. And you know, I think Gigi's, uh, brother Murl is still kicking it. He's still alive.


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[Assistant] So for DJ Lucas fans and Dark World fans, they want to get deep in there.


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[Assistant] Give me a last word here. Give me something to end this on. Something that means a lot to you.


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[Assistant] Not only is it not the kind of thing you would do, I went because I'm a lunatic and I looked up the video of when you won the Oscar for the first time. Show that video, let's see.


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[Assistant] I even went so far as to look at video of Eli Manning to see whether he mentioned his brother.


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[Assistant] They're really heating up. Casey is, is this his start? Would this, and I believe he is going to win the Oscar for Best Actor. He was great in that movie. Would this be the first time brothers have won it in separate categories? I think they've, brothers have won a category together. Right, like the Coen Brothers or whatever. Yeah, exactly.


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[Assistant] Thanks for watching. If you liked that, subscribe to our YouTube channel for all the latest videos. And if you didn't, subscribe anyway. It's free, who cares?


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[Assistant] So Ted, this is Cyclops. He wants to date our daughter, he's successful, he's in good shape, and uh...


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[Assistant] But that's all we know, and it's been in the news, so basically, uh, you know, uh, I know the, uh, the government of Canada, they're trying to keep it, uh,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I hunted 15 days. I traveled lots and I climbed a lot of mountains. I looked at a lot of country. There was hardly anything in it. So, makes it harder. Makes it, makes it harder.


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[Assistant] I lay with my arm across my eyes groggy and dazed.


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[Assistant] Something, a dream trying to be remembered, struggled to break into my consciousness. I moaned and rolled on my side, hoping more sleep would come.


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[Assistant] And then the previous day flooded back into my awareness. Oh, I sat up so fast it made my head spin. Your hair looks like a haystack, but I like it. His unruffled voice came from the rocking chair in the corner. Edward, you stayed. I rejoiced and thoughtlessly threw myself across the room and into his lap.


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[Assistant] In the instant that my thoughts caught up with my actions, I froze, shocked by my own uncontrolled enthusiasm.


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[Assistant] Of course, he answered, startled, but seeming pleased by my reaction. His hands rubbed my back. I laid my head cautiously against his shoulder, breathing in the smell of his skin. I was sure it was a dream. You're not that creative, he scoffed. Charlie, I remembered, thoughtlessly jumping up again and heading to the door. He left an hour ago.


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[Assistant] After reattaching your battery cables, I might add. I have to admit I was disappointed.


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[Assistant] Is that really all it would take to stop you if you were determined to go? I deliberated where I stood, wanting to return to him badly, but afraid I might have morning breath.


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[Assistant] You're not usually this confused in the morning, he noted. He held his arms open for me to return, a nearly irresistible invitation. I need another human minute, I admitted. I'll wait.


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[Assistant] I worked to straighten out the tangled chaos that was my hair. I splashed my face with cold water and tried to breathe normally with no noticeable success. I half ran back to my room. It seemed like a miracle that he was there, his arms still waiting for me. He reached out to me and my heart thumped unsteadily. Welcome back, he murmured, taking me into his arms. He rocked me for a while in silence.


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[Assistant] Until I noticed that his clothes were changed, his hair smooth. You left? I accused, touching the collar of his fresh shirt. I could hardly leave in the clothes I came in. What would the neighbors think? I pouted. You were very deeply asleep. I didn't miss anything. His eyes gleamed. The talking came earlier. I groaned. What did you hear? His gold eyes grew very soft.


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[Assistant] You said you loved me. You knew that already, I reminded him, ducking my head. It was nice to hear, just the same. I hid my face against his shoulder. I love you, I whispered.


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[Assistant] Thank you, Mark. It was a wonderful introduction. I really appreciate it.


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[Assistant] And I appreciate everybody who's here, either virtually or in person.


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[Assistant] To listen to this presentation, which is not about Barbara McClintock for a change. Uhm, this is a presentation that


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[Assistant] Stems from work that I started many, many years ago, and I like to give you a perspective on that work.


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[Assistant] Uhm, the background for my story began in 1985.


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[Assistant] Well, I was searching for publications to document my first edition of The Plants of San Salvador Island in the Bahamas. The picture of our cover of our first edition is on the right side of the screen.


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[Assistant] I, um, was invited to the Bahamas in the early 1980s to actually teach a class on, um, the botany, marine botany.


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[Assistant] And I had a little bit of background on psychology and so I started to do that while we were down there.


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[Assistant] My students kept asking me, what's this plant? What's that plant on the terrestrial land?


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[Assistant] And I didn't know. And uh, so I started to try to find publications to try to help them and myself.


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[Assistant] And from that, the director of the field station asked us to write a common plants guide with illustrations because there wasn't anything available at the time.


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[Assistant] So the class was a general education course for non-botanists.


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[Assistant] And, uh, from that, uh, we began looking for published papers to include in our common plants guide, which was actually illustrated by one of my students, uh, Tony Kowalski.


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[Assistant] In 1995, while I was waiting to board the plane to attend the first symposium on the botany of the Bahamas on San Salvador Island, which is currently called the natural history of the Bahamas.


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[Assistant] And here's a picture of Hardy on the right that I took many years later.


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[Assistant] Uh, so who was this guy and why is he so important to my story?


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[Assistant] Uh, Hardy was a Quineleon and an Indiana University PhD who later became interested in the Bahama Flora.


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[Assistant] At this 1985 Bahamas conference that we were going to, he presented an unpublished distribution map.


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[Assistant] For plants that were compiled by William Thomas Gillis that he had actually found in the herbarium at Michigan State University.


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[Assistant] Now on the right hand side of the screen, you can see this distribution map, one of many hundreds.


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[Assistant] That were, uh, that are currently in the Michigan State University Herbarium. And what Gillis did is


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[Assistant] And he began documenting the distribution of all the plants of the Bahamas on these distribution maps. And each one of the little dots there represents a plant that he had either collected or he had found in the literature or he came across in a herbarium.


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[Assistant] So this really helped us figure out, well, what were the plants that were on St. Salvador by looking at Gillis' maps.


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[Assistant] So, during this time, we, as I said, we were looking to find publications and we came across this big book that had just recently been published.


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[Assistant] And this book was basically for, uh, taxonomists. It was not a book for the general public. It had descriptions in Latin and, um,


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[Assistant] We got a copy of it and schlepped it in our backpacks down to San Salvador on a regular basis while trying to, uh, to describe the plants of the Bahamas for our book. And uhm,


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[Assistant] What we noticed was in the preface to this book.


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[Assistant] Was an acknowledgement to the National Science Foundation for funding the publication of the book.


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[Assistant] References to Dr. Gillis's publications.


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[Assistant] So I said to Hardy, why was Gillis' work ignored in the Corral's recently published Flora of the Bahama Archipelago?


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[Assistant] So Hardy suggested that I contact associates who might know the answers to my question.


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[Assistant] And one of the people that actually worked with Gillis on his interest in the Bahama Flora was Richard Howard of the Harvard University Herberia.


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[Assistant] And, uh, Cambridge actually. And I interviewed Dick Howard in 1993.


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[Assistant] At the Harvard University Herbaria to try to get some answers and documentation on what was going on.


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[Assistant] So the search to solve my question, precipitated finding documents, revealing a lack of ethics in grant proposal reviews.


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[Assistant] The publication should be out in the, we were promised that it would be out in the spring of 2024 in Huntia, the journal of the botanical history. So let's talk about, or let's see what we found.


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[Assistant] The National Science Foundation had, uh,


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[Assistant] Conflicts of interest problems with grants to short-term employees.


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[Assistant] Uhm, these short term employees are known as rotators. And in 1979,


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[Assistant] The United States General Accounting Office, which is currently called the US General Accounting Office, began a review.


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[Assistant] ...of the National Science Foundation's policies and procedures for precluding conflicts of interests in its grant award process.


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[Assistant] Specifically when NSF former short-term rotator employees were involved.


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[Assistant] The review was precipitated by a request from Congressman Carl D Purcell, a Republican from Michigan.


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[Assistant] Congressman Purcell had made a request to the government office on behalf of a constituent. Now I want you to know that this proposal that or this review that they made


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[Assistant] Uh, did not reveal any names, so please keep that in mind. So he, he, uhm,


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[Assistant] Made a request on behalf of his upper constituent who unfortunately did not live to see the outcome of their review.


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[Assistant] A draft of the GAO 1981 report included a proposal for identifying conflicts of interest.


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[Assistant] And the National Science Foundation implanted, implemented that proposal, which concluded quote,


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[Assistant] Should provide greater visibility to potential conflict of interest situations associated with grants involving rotators.


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[Assistant] And to resolve conflicts in accordance with statutes and regulations.


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[Assistant] Additional specifics of this case that regarded Purcell's unnamed constituent.


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[Assistant] Purcell had asked for a review of National Science Foundation policies and procedures for awarding grants to former National Science Foundation employees.


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[Assistant] Adequate adequately prevented uh, prevented conflicts of interest and whether NSF complies with them. This is actually published in that report.


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[Assistant] Purcell's interest in the case was brought to his attention by a researcher unnamed in the report.


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[Assistant] From his home district whose proposal NSF had declined to fund.


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[Assistant] Although, it later funded a similar project proposed by a former National Science Foundation employee.


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[Assistant] The government office investigation focused on the special problems of processing grants from short-term employees, the rotators, who work for National Science Foundation for one or two years. And.


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[Assistant] They found 39 problems in grant activity for 24 past and current short term NSF appointees. Recall this was beginning, this,


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[Assistant] In the case involving Congressman Purcell's constituents.


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[Assistant] Contributing to the problem were decisions on this grant activity made by associates to the NSF appointees and often the relationships were between supervisors and subordinates.


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[Assistant] Purcell's constituent had submitted a proposal that the National Science Foundation declined.


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[Assistant] But the decision on which to judge whether the constituents proposal was treated fairly was limited.


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[Assistant] Because all files relating to it had been destroyed by the time of the government's review. That's a quote.


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[Assistant] Now, I'd like you to please keep this statement in mind.


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[Assistant] Especially what I state in the highlighted dark brown lettering.


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[Assistant] I repeat it again. All files relating to it had been destroyed by the time of the government review.


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[Assistant] Another researcher began a two-year rotational appointment at the National Science Foundation in the program office that had rejected it.


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[Assistant] After leaving NSF, the appointee submitted a proposal. It was the same subject as the constituents.


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[Assistant] Was completed in three months according to their findings. It actually was six weeks.


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[Assistant] It usually took about five months to act on the proposals. So it was reported.


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[Assistant] But it was actually eight months for the constituents proposal to get his review back.


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[Assistant] The National Science Pound Foundation Program Officer who made the award.


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[Assistant] recommended for the former NSF program officer had earlier used the NSF appointee as a reference on his own application for his own employment at the National Science Foundation and


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[Assistant] He had also worked for the former employee, appointee. These were the findings from the US GAO.


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[Assistant] With the help of Richard Howard, among others, we tracked down the grant proposals.


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[Assistant] The 1993, in 1993, myself and my husband located all of Purcell's constituents research files, including


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[Assistant] The documents at MSC, Michigan State University Herbarium and at the Fairchild Tropical Garden Herbarium revealed that the NSF appointee


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[Assistant] Was Donovan Carell, program director of systematic biology.


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[Assistant] And the co-author of the 1982 Flora of the Bahama Archipelago and who they had funded twice and which was in their preface to their book.


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[Assistant] Purcell's constituent was W.T. Gillis, the guy who did all those distribution maps.


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[Assistant] And was a former Fairchild Tropical Garden employee.


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[Assistant] And the author of the original rejected grant proposal.


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[Assistant] He submitted it from the Fairchild Tropical Garden on October 1st, 1973.


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[Assistant] Two months after he had left the National Science Foundation appointment and it was approved six weeks later on 15 November 1973. Much of the text was derived.


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[Assistant] From the grand proposal previously submitted to the National Science Foundation by Gillis from the same institution.


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[Assistant] Here's the case as was summarized by the USGAO in 1981.


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[Assistant] The National Science Foundation awarded the former NSF appointee more than $90,000 over five years.


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[Assistant] Within the five years he requested and was granted an increase that brought the total award to more than $100,000.


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[Assistant] During the six years, he was awarded about $40,000 in additional funds.


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[Assistant] And the grant period was extended to a total of more than seven and a half years.


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[Assistant] One of the major arguments made by reviewers of Gillis's 1970 National Science Foundation grants proposal, which we found at the Michigan State University Herbarium,


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[Assistant] Was to prepare a manual and a flora of the Bahama vascular plants.


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[Assistant] And the argument was that the cost was too high. Yet.


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[Assistant] And for fewer years of support than Gillis had originally requested for three researchers, himself, Dr. Howard, and Dr. Proctor,


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[Assistant] Of the Institute of Research in Jamaica, who was also researching the flora of the bones.


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[Assistant] Revising and submitting a Bahama Flora grant proposal might be justified by assuming the project was the purview.


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[Assistant] Because it wasn't the institution that started this, but it was actually the researchers within that institution whose idea it was.


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[Assistant] Correll's October 1973 grant proposal misrepresented what actually happened. They said,


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[Assistant] Misrepresented it as a institutional proposal, which it was not. It was only signed by the institution director, but his, he had nothing to do with the grant proposal.


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[Assistant] Gillis and collaborators having priority and partial funding for the Bahama Flora project was ignored. They did not.


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[Assistant] Uh, cite any of the previous or current publications that Gillis had done. It was not part of the grant proposal.


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[Assistant] The publication came out in 1970 and we cited it in 1991 with Richard Howard and


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[Assistant] And, uh, Dick Proctor. Gillis continued the project until he died, his untimely death in 1979.


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[Assistant] He died on June 20th in 1979, approximately two months after.


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[Assistant] The investigation began by the USGAO.


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[Assistant] Picture on the right on the bottom shows Howard and Gillis with the students, uh, doing research in the Bahamas in the early or the mid-1970s. The National Science Foundation had recognized that it has been less than successful.


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[Assistant] In addressing the unique problems associated with the rotator program. That's a quote. United States government.


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[Assistant] The organization report had sensitized NSF employees to conflicts of interest problems in the rotator program, they reported.


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[Assistant] And accordingly, the National Science Foundation will take steps to address new conflicts of interest policies.


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[Assistant] With respect to the case at hand, meaning the issue with the constituent,


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[Assistant] The National Science Foundation planned to issue a directive.


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[Assistant] That all staff in grades GS12 and above who are leaving the National Science Foundation be especially counseled by the ethics counselor.


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[Assistant] The ethics counselor is in the office of the general counsel at NSF.


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[Assistant] About post-employment conflicts of interest restrictions.


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[Assistant] Further, they report that a former employee is precluded during one year period after the National Science Foundation service from submitting a new proposal to the National Science Foundation as principal investigator.


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[Assistant] And from receiving compensation under any NSF award other than one on which he or she suspended work.


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[Assistant] When coming to the foundation, that appears in their appendix.


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[Assistant] Yet, the National Science Foundation believed that none of the basic rules that they used to guard against conflicts of interest involving rotators was violated.


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[Assistant] In any of the cases cited in the draft report. That's in Appendix 3.


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[Assistant] So NSF is still denying that they did anything wrong.


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[Assistant] The USGAO believed that their final recommendations to the director of the National Science Foundation, if they were implemented,


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[Assistant] Would resolve conflicts of interest questions for the National Science Foundation.


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[Assistant] ...of the National Science Foundation policies might have reassured Bill Gillis that a case such as his would not be repeated.


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[Assistant] As I said, unfortunately, he didn't see this decision because he died in 1979. Nevertheless, our findings revealed that basic rules from the NSF had been used to guard against conflicts of interest involving rotators were violent.


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[Assistant] So when we did our research, when we found the documentation, it was clear to us that


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[Assistant] Within keeping within historical perspective.


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[Assistant] We may recall the words of the Roman historian Tacitus. The principal office of history I take to be this.


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[Assistant] Can get the information out that proves that there was a problem. Hardy and I have been trying to get this paper published for 20 years and no one would publish it until last year.


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[Assistant] Acknowledgements. These are all the places that we visited.


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[Assistant] Talk to zillions of people to get the documentation for our story.


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[Assistant] Yes, uhm, we, we lost, uh, we lost a lot of plants, uh, during Hurricane Dorian, uhm, and, uh,


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[Assistant] One of the things that's important for the herbarium is to document.


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[Assistant] The plants that were there and any that might have been lost.


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[Assistant] So right now we're in the process of doing that and Ethan Freed and the Bahamas National Trust is working on that project.


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[Assistant] Haven't been directly to the Bahamas in a while, but, but I have colleagues who are working on Since Salvador and, uh, fortunately, uh,


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[Assistant] The hurricanes on San Salvador haven't been as devastating as ones in, uh, the, uh, the more, the more Western islands.


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[Assistant] But, uh, sure, we, we are definitely concerned about that. And I've written a recent article on the Bahama endemics, uh, as has Ethan Creed.


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[Assistant] And uhm, we've published the importance of the endemics on, and on which islands they are and the one we, the,


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[Assistant] Publication that we recently wrote was about the endemics that we found on San Salvador, which are fortunately still safe.


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[Assistant] But I just learned recently that the Duke University Herbarium is being closed.


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[Assistant] And that is such a shame because uhm, how are we going to document?


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[Assistant] Loss of, of uh, diversity if the herbaria are not being kept, kept up. So uhm.


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[Assistant] Yeah, it is definitely a concern, but the other thing that's important is to plant.


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[Assistant] Uh, trees like, uh, or not, not definitely necessarily trees, but, but, uh, mangrove trees, uh, specifically along the coast.


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[Assistant] Mangroves get destroyed or are cut down.


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[Assistant] Uh, that causes, uh, a big problem. Uh, so we've, we've, um, advocated for replanting.


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[Assistant] Oh, absolutely. Yeah, we have a list of invasives and, uhm,


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[Assistant] There's really not a lot that we can do about it. I mean, you know, it's just like in Hawaii, they've been going through places and pulling them out.


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[Assistant] And, uh, you know, we do that on St. Salvador too. Fortunately, St. Salvador is like way out there and, and so we don't have as many invasives as some of the other islands. If I go back to this, uh, picture, do you see my screen or not?


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[Assistant] So anyway, San Salvador is way out there, um, and, and is one of the islands that actually, I don't know if you know that or familiar with San Salvador Island, but it was the first one that Columbus landed on when he came to the New World. Um, and, um,


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[Assistant] If you go to his log, you can see all the trees and plants that were on San Salvador when Columbus first landed. And we, we now know how many of those have been destroyed.


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[Assistant] Uh, you know, because, uh, because what happened in, in the 1700s is that people from the United States came to the Bahamas to establish plantations.


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[Assistant] And uhm, they took out a lot of the trees and shrubs.