[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Essentially length vector number that, uh, we're getting from the touch device. We can break it down into its individual elements. So impedance is a complex resistance of a circuit. So it has a real component and it has an imaginary component. The real component is what we call resistance and the imaginary component is what we call capacitance.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You can ask it, so L is uh, inductance, and then C, which we're gonna see next, is capacitance, and then R is resistance, and these are all.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Here we have a button which is based on resistance. So we've hooked it up to our LCR meter. We have a simple circuit where it goes through the button, back to the LCR meter.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] When we put the two buttons in the same simple circuit, we can actually tell which one changed because we can look at the resistance and the capacitance separately. Even though they're in one circuit and they're passive devices,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Because they change their signatures differently, we can tell, okay, I know that the resistance is changing of this circuit, so I know I pressed the resistive button. Or I know the capacitance is changing, so I know I pressed the capacitive button.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] We can also figure out how much resistance we added. So there's this simple way that resistance is related. The total resistance of a circuit is just the resistance, the sum of all the resistances in it. The total capacitance of the circuit is related in this, uh, sort of annoyingly, um, inverted way.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] We can also do continuous measurement. So here we have a joystick, which works in 2D. We have a...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Capacitance going this way, and we have resistance going this way, and when we see the continuous changes, we can map it to, uh,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Elton, yeaah. So if we want to have multiple sliders that are resistive, it's a little bit hard to tell which one we slid, right? Because one ohm change looks the same no matter where it comes from.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] We can actually do this trick where instead of having it be continuous, we have steps. So here we have a big plate, smaller plate, smaller plate. And we can tell what the difference is going to be when we slide to these different plates. So instead of seeing a smooth change, we see a stepped change.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So in this way, we can have multiple variable components. These two are resistive. These two are capacitive. And because we know what the relative sizes of the steps are, we now know which ones we're changing.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So anyway, there's a lot of physical laws and also material laws that govern how these things work, which I'm not going to talk about. But the thing that I think is really cool is that we can 3D print all of them. So we're always back to 3D printing.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] We did a bunch of experiments to explore how to do that.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] We also managed to manufacture them, well okay, we confirmed that, uh, even though 3D printers


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] These, these rates don't look amazing, but compared to what you actually buy in the store, which is usually like plus or minus 10% on these, uh, components, it's actually not too bad for, for printing them out. And anyway,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Because we can control the geometry, we can also error correct. So, uh, if we predict things,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, if we have a slider that's got a capacitor on one side and a resistor on the other side, even if we aren't perfectly getting the exact values we expect,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Because we can have multiple channels at the same time, we can still do this error correction. So the capacitive resistor plus the resistive signature.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Do these on regular quote unquote, um, sensing devices as opposed to this like weird electrical engineers tool.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But, uh, the other cool thing is that you can actually use these with gloves on, so it doesn't matter if your body's capacitive or resistive because it's all contained within the devices. Although I guess the glove thing, maybe you don't care in Stanford, we care a lot more in Denmark. We also thought a little bit about inductance.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So anyway, we, we had a lot of fun exploring a signal space multiplexing and the kinds of things that we can do by splitting up this supposedly simple signal into multiple parts and looking at all the parts separately.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Okay, now we're just going to talk about shapes, which is hopefully way easier than electrical engineering. Uhm, the question is how should devices be shaped?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I found this industrial design thesis that says that there are no detailed guidelines for designing everyday life products adapted to the user's anthropometrics and physics. Which is sort of a horrifying statement when you think about it. Like, the idea that we have people who professionally do this kind of design.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And are telling us that there aren't guidelines to do it.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I found it moderately sketchy, but uh, but there are some kinds of guidelines.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Ergonomic guidelines have been around for a long time. They say simple things like, we want the largest possible contact area between a surface and our hand. So when I'm designing like, a drill handle.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The thing about mass manufacturing is that everybody gets the same devices, right? But with digital fabrication, of course, we can help users get their own devices.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] My other PhD student who's a mechanical engineer, uhm, he's thinking a lot about how we can help people create these devices suited to themselves.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, also as a heads up, this is still very much work in progress, so I'm excited to hear your comments and thoughts about it. So, okay.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Parametric geometry is something that basically says we can take a shape and we can define it relative to some measurement. Uhm, for example,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I 3D printed my husband's wedding ring and basically what I did to do that is I measured how big his finger was and then I said I want the circle of the ring to be as big as his finger. Right? That's parametric geometry. It just rescales stuff to fit other stuff.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So in this case, it makes sense that all we have to do is make parametric geometry that integrates hand dimensions and that follows the rules, right? I just showed you the rules, there's rules. So the problem is done, right?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] No, it turns out that it's not. So sometimes the rules actually turn out to conflict. Uhm, sometimes if we have an existing object, like a drill or a game controller, where the grip is bigger than our hands are already,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] If you're designing something from scratch and you want a whole bunch of buttons on it, it can be really complicated to fit them all. So at the end of the day, the user has to be involved with these kinds of decisions. So, uh, okay, I'm gonna talk about those in a second. Uhm, so at the end of the day, users have to be involved.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Wow, that's super low resolution, I apologize. Uhm, so,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Another Fusion 360 plugin. Super cool. Uhm, we built this software system that lets users think about how they want to integrate the rules and the dimensions and all of this stuff.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So we, uh, we start by scanning people's hands and getting their preferences for, for what the...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, and then we can go through the flow of the tool. So here we're designing this precision tool that has a trigger. So this is, uhm,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] This is a device that you would use to, uh, precisely sort of select or cut things. It's actually a medical tool. So it's for, for surgeries. So we're trying to like direct people's hands in a very precise way.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So, in this case, we specify kind of, uh, whether we want a precision grip or a power grip, and then, you know, if we want input components, so in this case we have this button trigger thing, it'll basically place them, uh, from scratch for the user.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] We can also lay out a whole bunch of buttons. We have not tried generating a twiddler yet, although that is going to be one of our stress tests, which I'm very excited about. Have any of you ever seen a twiddler before, by the way? Other than Michael. Have you seen a twiddler before?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, we can also add geometry to existing tools. So if we take the existing tool model, uh, here we've got the existing tool in gray and then we've got our custom geometry in yellow.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] We can print some stuff out and then we can glue it on to our existing tool.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So, sometimes, as I mentioned, uh, it can be the case that our perfect grip is actually smaller than the existing grip, so we also have to help users add stuff on, uhm, so that they can align the forces of their new grip with the, uh, the actual power axis of their device.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] We measured, we videotaped their performance, uhm, and we measured, uh, some features of the grips. So we measured how well do they actually adhere to these guidelines. It turns out, by following the rules, we adhere to the rules. Incredible. Uhm, and, uh,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But this is, this is only sort of like alignment features, and one of the most interesting features I think is contact area, so max contact area is super super important.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And the way that we figured out how much contact area we had with a tool was actually we


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Froze the tools and then handed them to people and then we took thermal pictures of their hands.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Based on contact area, our tools all did better. Uh, they also increased user performance in a lot of cases, except for in the Nintendo case, because it turns out we had one relatively older user who had played a ton of Nintendo on the original controllers. And he kind of threw off all of our statistics, but that's fine.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, we asked them about our, excuse me, we asked them about their experiences, and this is one of the questions that we asked. So there was a lot of variation between user preferences and we found some interesting stuff, like, it turns out that the shape of our hands is not everything.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] People had different hardnesses of hand, which affected how well the grips worked in their hands. Uhm, and that's never been captured in ergonomic guidelines, so we're interested to see like where that goes.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So in addition to different things for every user, we're also interested in different inputs for every task. This is something we haven't done yet. But, uh,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] These are, as I'm sure you can see, keyboard heatmaps. And they are for three different video games.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Starcraft. Not, not a platformer exactly, but the WASD thing was bang on, so this is, you know, CSGO. Uh, World of Warcraft is interesting because you get the WASD heat, but then you also get, uhm, chat, so, uh, so it's sort of like a general use of the whole keyboard. Uhm, but anyway, the point is that


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] We can tell apart different tasks by looking at their fingerprints, but we can also measure specific people as they perform those tasks. So, uh, it could reveal things about like personal style, right? If I'm looking at, uhm,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now we've talked a lot about intentional design, uhm, for these deeply custom devices. We talked about sensing and we talked about shape.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, but what if we don't have the time or ability to design exactly the right thing at exactly the right time for what we need?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] One thing we can do is just pick up whatever is around, right? So,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] If you've heard the term ubiquitous computing, the dream of ubiquitous computing is that computing vanishes into our environments and everything, you know, could be computational, maybe it's computational, maybe it's not. Uh, but there's a lot of interesting interactive objects already in our environments. So, for example, this pair of scissors, right? This is interactive, we go like this.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Also interactive. We've got water bottles. We know how to screw and unscrew water bottles. Uhm, and there's tons of these like, physical affordances on passive devices that are already everywhere around us.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Or we could squeeze this ball to, uh, control, um, a volume thing. Or we could twist a dial to...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I actually think this is hilarious because the idea that we took a physical


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Dial and then turn it into a digital widget, which we now are controlling back again with a physical widget. Sort of appealing on like an art level. But anyway, that's what we're going to talk about doing.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So how could we possibly sense interacting with a water bottle?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] We have to look, instead of looking at instrumenting the water bottle, instead of instrumenting the human. So we've got all this cool stuff in our arm. Uhm, these images are from Grey's Anatomy.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, tendons. The red stuff is arteries. Uhm, oh no, I'm sorry.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And as we do tasks, they're all sending each other mechanical signals and electrical signals.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, for example, if you think about your heart beating, right? There's a mechanical signal where this is when people go like this on your wrist, right? They're feeling for that mechanical signal of the blood pushing through your veins. You can also


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I'm lucky that my wrist is very obvious when I do this, but when you wiggle your fingers around, you can see the tendons changing right in your wrist.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The position of those is actually uniquely determined by the position of your fingers. Uhm, we can also tell, so if you close your hand and then you squeeze it harder


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Your fingers haven't moved, but the amount of force that you're outputting has moved, so the tension on your muscles and tendons also changes. So we can tell not just what shape your hand is in, but how much force you're outputting, just based on looking at what's going on in your wrist.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You know, if, if my hand is in this shape, I'm probably holding something of this shape, right? So the shape of my hand is now telling me something about the shape of what I'm interacting with.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, the motion of my hand is telling me something about the way in which I'm interacting with it.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And then as we also mentioned, we can tell from the muscle tension, uh, the force that we're exerting or maybe the weight of the object that we're holding.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So we built this really cool wristband which uses capacitive sensing to look at essentially a high resolution depth map of your wrist as you do different stuff with it. Uhm, so we can see here the signature changing as the hand moves around and as it stretches out this rubber band.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] We learned that it's not going to be easy to get enough data to make one machine learning model work for everybody, right? So these risks were just two different, so we focused on like one user at a time.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And we did some analysis, this is a thing from biology, that, uh,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Lower is better, so point one is kinda low, so it tells us that we're looking at probably the same structure, but it's not low enough that we can actually like use the data over and over.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Then we looked at taking it off and putting it back onto the same person's wrist. So these are repeat, um,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] This is a squishing a light spring and a slightly heavier spring and a heavier spring. So you can see that in addition to the, uh, muscle tension required, there's also a change in the user's hand pose actually, which is interesting when they squeeze stuff of different forces.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, and we got like a reasonable error. 13 Newtons when we're on this scale of 4 to 49 is not amazing, but it does show us that there is some correlation here in the data.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] We also wanted to understand whether this pose thing that I said was correct. So can we tell from a user's hand pose what the shape of the object is? Or like, are their grips essentially repeatable? So we sent them a bunch of Play-Doh in different shapes. There were six, there were four objects that they used six different grasps on, so you can see the six grasps here. And we got classification accuracy of 81%. This is the stuff that I think is


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Activate the, uh, thing. It's first comparing my twisting to all of these other things I have planned to figure out, okay, okay, so she's twisting, perfect. And then it's regressing where in the twist I am.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Which would normally sense, you know, the dial twisting, but instead he sensed it from his wrist. Anyway, it's just a fun, fun thing that he did. Uhm.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So we can use these for useful input. And our users told us that they felt like superheroes. Uh, they had all these very positive things to say about using the objects. And it turns out that the quantitative data we collected said that they didn't do any better with the objects than they did by just doing freehand gestures. But they liked them better, so that's what's important, I guess.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] One thing that I like here as an idea is that, uh, instead of having, um,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So we can prototype, we can do paper prototyping and then sense people's interactions with it. And I haven't done this follow on study yet, but I think it's very exciting to think about what's the lowest


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Here you have found a screw, which you need to drive into some wood. Uhm, and you don't have a screwdriver, but, you know, that's easy enough, so we can, if we have the skills, we can 3D model a screwdriver, or we can go to Thingiverse and download a screwdriver or whatever. So we, uh, find this 3D model, and then we print it out, and then we go and we're like, oh,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] This is actually not the right screwdriver, right? So we actually needed a Phillips head screwdriver.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The plus instead of the flathead. So okay, we can go back and iterate, but this is like a little bit annoying.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, in the case of Phillips head versus flat head, you don't have to be a screwdriver expert to figure out that you need the shape of the screwdriver to fit the shape of the screw.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But there are other challenges that can be way more complicated. So for example, if a screw is in a corner, you might need a special device that transforms your twisting of the screw so that it goes into the corner the right way. If the screw is stripped,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, and then if you can't output the amount of torque that's required to move the screw, then you might need a special device that lets you use larger muscle groups to, to actually get it out of there, right?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So this comes back to, uh, the challenges, uhm, by this industrial designer. So there's no detailed guidelines for how to help people design these things. So instead of designing them,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The way that you actually do this design is really complex to conceptualize, even for people who do physical design stuff. Uhm, you require knowledge about the task, you require knowledge about the tool, you require knowledge about the user, and you may not have all of those things when you go to design the tool.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] There's dynamic interactions between them that are challenging to predict, even in this world of like mega big AI.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So the idea that I have is, instead of doing modeling explicitly through a user or a designer requesting stuff before we make these objects, we instead have the user demonstrate and fail to do things while they're doing the task.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So in the screwdriver scenario, we can start with the basic screwdriver and then using knowledge of our surroundings, we can design, we can optimize the design to make sure the screw is reachable.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, as well as, you know, the amount of torque that we're outputting onto it.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You find a screw that you're aiming to fasten, and you give some command, whatever, get a basic screwdriver, uh, and then, because of what we know about your body, uhm, and the space that you're working in, we give you a screwdriver that's got a right angle already on it. Uhm, that's balanced well for your muscles.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, we can also decide that maybe the most important thing to print, instead of, you know, printing the whole screwdriver each time, maybe all we need to print is a bit. So,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] 3D printers are unfortunately very stupid and they start at the bottom of an object and they print up, but instead we can try to think about what is a salient part? What's the important part of the screwdriver to print? And maybe we print that first. So we don't start at the bottom and go up. We instead start at the important part, which is the bit, test it out first.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But of course we don't want an ordinary bit, we want something that's got sensing inside. So then when we go and print the things and test them out, we can tell


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] How well we're contacting the screw, how well we're outputting the force that we expected, and then we can iterate based on what we see. Just reprinting parts that aren't performing well. So we end up with a screwdriver that evolves as we use it to perfectly match the task, the context, and us.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So I think that this idea of taking modeling out of the equation and instead authoring through failure is, uh, pretty interesting. Uhm, so if we define authoring as guessing and using and sensing and iterating, then, uh,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And thinking about how, how to interact then with systems that are sort of like understanding our failure in situ is sort of exciting. And I did use, I wrote find, fix, verify in here by the way.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Even though I use 3D printing all the time to make finished objects, I don't think that it should be a tool that we use at the end of a chain to make an object that we know is going to be the right object, right? I think it's an opportunity for us to interact with something physical that we might use in different ways.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I also have a lot of colleagues that work on VR and, uh, they find it compelling that the virtual world can be changed rapidly using only software.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, but I think that if we put sensing in the right places and use it in the right ways, we can actually change the physical world just the same as we do in virtual reality. So...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] VR, in this case, uses the fact that we've tied sensing and rendering together into a single system, but now that fabrication is sort of this more sophisticated, uh, uhm,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] This project that I have here, basically what they did was they had users pressing different buttons, right? And then over time, they made the user's fingers longer and longer so that they got better performance on the buttons.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So, we made it through a lot of different projects that get around the idea of finding or making input devices that are well matched to users or their tasks or their contexts. We talked about shape, talked about sensing, we also talked about completely ignoring shape and sensing and focusing on usage, uhm, and letting devices emerge sort of from the context in which they're being used. And then, uh,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, of course I want to thank my collaborators at KU and everywhere else. And this is not all of them. This slide, uhm, anyway, I need a bigger slide. That's all I need.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, yeah, so part of the, the thing that I think about that is many of the projects that I work on are actually focused on how can we make structural interactive devices as opposed to electronic based ones. So they are


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yes, I agree that there is a sustainability perspective, uhm, but I think that it can be mitigated through using the right kinds of design and essentially like.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] There's certain things, like I talked about the hands, right? So I can already know how big your hands are. There's no mystery there, right? Uhm, but the question about like the dynamic interaction between you and the stuff that you're working on, that's something that's really hard to know upfront. So we can make some adjustments beforehand, but some have to be made as we do the task.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Right now, the way that our system is built, you have to have balanced logic gates, so we can have, you know, if we do one and, and one and, then we can do another and down here, but we can't do an and.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And then have an and that's got like an imbalance because of the way that we're currently using our air.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] In the historical systems, I don't think I have this slide, but uh, in the historical systems, they have a slightly different design that doesn't require balanced airflow. And so,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So there's a little bit of math and a little bit of extra electronics, uh, but I don't think it's like a far off goal, especially because


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The sensing technique itself doesn't require anything special. So it would require a little more


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That's just life. Uhm, good question though. Uh, yeaah.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He nodded still intent on the birds. He scattered the rest of the seed.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He said, taking swift advantage of my answering smile.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Seeing as how you've not a great deal to occupy your time at present, you might think of having a look at the things Davey Beaton left behind him.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You might know the uses of a few of his medicines and such. Well, I suppose so. Why not?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] In fact, I was becoming slightly bored with the round between garden, still room, and kitchen.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I was curious to see what the late Mr. Beaton had considered useful in the way of paraphernalia. Angus or I could shoo the lady down, sir, the attendant suggested respectfully. Don't trouble yourself, John, Colum said, gesturing the man politely away. I'll shoo Mr. Speecham myself.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] His progress down the stair was slow and obviously painful. Just as obviously he didn't wish for help, and I offered none.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The surgery of the late Beaton proved to be in a remote corner of the castle, tucked out of sight behind the kitchens.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It was in close proximity to nothing save the graveyard, in which its late proprietor now rested.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] In the outer wall of the castle, the narrow dark room boasted only one of the tiny slit windows set high in the wall.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I made out a tall cabinet, equipped with dozens of tiny drawers, each with a label in curlicue


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Jars, boxes and vials of all shapes and sizes were neatly stacked on the shelves above a counter.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Where the late Beaton evidently had been in the habit of mixing medicines.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Shimmering moats disturbed by his entry swirled upward into the bar of sunlight like dust raised from the breaking of a tomb.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] He stood for a moment, letting his eyes grow used to the dimness, then walked forward slowly, looking from side to side. I thought, perhaps it was the first time he had ever been in this room.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] They say he knows more about the poor colonel's death than he'll tell. He's a queer one, alright. In what way?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Billy's kind of had that, like, the voice that I feel like she, she has now for, like, as long as I can remember, which is such a unfair gift.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] She's 16 now, but she was 13 when we recorded Ocean Eyes. And he's 20.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But she just like immediately brought this kind of depth to the song, like it, it sounded, her interpretation of the song was like, as if she'd written every single line of it, and that's such a...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Talking about the mortgage or something and mom was on a treadmill desk and dad was like leaned up against the treadmill desk like a...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And we were like, shut up, listen to this. And Billy sang it and played it.


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[Assistant] But yea, we just, I just knew that I loved hearing her sing it, and uhm, she, I don't want to speak for you, but you were in a dance class at the time.


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[Assistant] Direction to go in. It was really a helpful thing to sort of have that. Like it has to, you know, fill column A, B, and C, which was great.


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[Assistant] Well to be completely honest, it's a, you know, there are elements of it that are


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[Assistant] So yeaah, I think lyrically, I mean, it did even inform like,


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[Assistant] You know, once the song had been written, when we were recording it, I think my biggest note to Billy probably was to make the lyrics more percussive.


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[Assistant] Because I thought like there's so much of that song that has no drum beat and no kind of like structure to move your body to and so literally if you watch like dance videos to it people are moving their body on like the lines of the song and the visuals and stuff so I thought Billy killed that, you know, in that song just like was able to really articulate exactly how percussive every element of it needed to be.


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[Assistant] Uhm, and, and it was really cool, but I, I just like, that song has like a really,


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[Assistant] I'd always wanted to write for other artists and be a co-writer.


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[Assistant] I was 18 at the time and just had no experience in that, in that world. I actually had come to the, I came to the ASCAP Expo, uhm, when I was 16, my mom got me tickets for Christmas and I had an amazing time here, so it's really amazing to be back, uhm, under this, but uhm,


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[Assistant] But yeaah, I learned, I learned a ton coming at 16. I remember seeing Mike Will do a panel, and uhm, Rick Knowles, who has produced a lot of Lana Del Rey's work, was really, was a crazy experience.


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[Assistant] But yeaah, I'd always wanted to write for other people, and at the time I didn't know anyone else to write with or for.


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[Assistant] You know, pretty much funneled everything into the bands that I've been playing with in high school.


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[Assistant] Uhm, but this song specifically, I just thought like, I thought I need to hear someone with a totally different voice sing this, because it had so many things in it that were like, not even really within my spectrum of ability as a singer. There's like an octave jump into the chorus and the falsetto that feels so much better in a girl's voice.


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[Assistant] Yes, yeah, it was like the only, we didn't have a backlog of stuff we'd been working on. We just had this one song that we'd kind of made and thought like, well we both really like this and we'd like, we'd love for our friends to hear it.


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[Assistant] Yeah, it's funny, I'd feel like we'd, we'd, I'd watched enough interviews with artists I liked who'd, who would post like, like an interview, they'd say something like, you know, yeah, I was just like, you know, I worked at a Denny's, and then I put a song out on SoundCloud, and the next day it was charting, and you know, and I remember watching those interviews and being like, bullshit, like, no way.


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[Assistant] And then, like, it wasn't charting the next day, but it really did, like, it started to just catch on to people sharing it online and...


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[Assistant] You know, we really didn't, we didn't put any press behind it or anything. We didn't really know anyone in the-


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[Assistant] Well, it was definitely like, I don't know, we never were forced in anything. I think our parents, like, enrolled both of us in piano lessons really young and we...


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[Assistant] I don't know, boredom leads to creativity a lot of the time. And I think if you're, if you're a little bit bored and you have access to a piano or a guitar in the same room when you're really young,


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[Assistant] So, it was really just amazing to have all of those instruments in the house all the time. You know, just play around on them.


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[Assistant] That was, I think that was like, I don't know, I don't, I don't imagine I ever would have learned how to play piano if we didn't have like, like a Casio keyboard from Costco in the living room, just to, just to sit down at whenever we wanted to.


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[Assistant] Our parents called it life, like life skills training, which I think is like, I still at 20 go to restaurants and like I have a friend who like will pull out a calculator to figure out the tip. And I'm always like, dude, like,


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[Assistant] If you know any math, you should know how to calculate a tip at a restaurant. You know what I mean? I think so. So those were, you know...


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[Assistant] Great writing on that record and, and just like,


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[Assistant] I thought his vocal delivery of everything was super dope and uhm, I love the sonics of it all. I remember that was like one of the, one of those artists that you kind of get introduced to through like music videos. I don't know if you could, you probably all think of an artist like that where you,


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[Assistant] I mean, I remember like, this sounds goofy, but I was eight at the time, and I had like a...


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[Assistant] A little iPod, or like, I don't even think I had an iPod, it was like a Sandisk blue MP3 player, because I couldn't afford an iPod at 8. Uhm, but I remember they had a song called Dirty Little Secret, and I didn't want my mom to hear that I was listening to that song, so I only listened to it in headphones, in the back of the van.


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[Assistant] Uhm, and I think there's like, there's something about music growing up that is formative, and I think everyone has said this sort of since the beginning, that like, if there's any music that is like kind of secret to you,


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[Assistant] It's that much more important to you. You know, anything that you're sort of keeping to yourself and not really sharing. And then if you find someone else who independently likes that music, it's like an instant bond with them, you know.


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[Assistant] So, so yeaah, all American rejects. Yeaah.


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[Assistant] I don't know, anytime I watched, like, interviews with songwriters growing up and they said that they always started one way or another way, like, I get that there's like ways that are


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[Assistant] You know, sort of proven to work a lot of the time, but it's so interesting to start a song in an odd way, and it leads to such a different song a lot of the time, so I think those are all just tools to keep in your back pocket, and if you're ever feeling


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[Assistant] I think one of the things that people throw around when you're, when you're 13, like Billy was when we started making music together, or 18 even, or 16 now, uhm,


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[Assistant] Writing exclusively from real life experience and reality is a wonderful thing, but I think


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[Assistant] I think the same rule of like starting a song the same way every time. It's really wonderful to start a song with an idea that's a fantasy.


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[Assistant] We wrote this song called Party Favor that was on Billie's EP. And that was, again, back to the concept, like, we just were, like, Billie was playing, like, a C chord on a ukulele and it sounded adorable. And I was like, we should write a song about breaking someone, breaking up with someone on their birthday. And then we kind of were like, oh, that's funny. And then we were like, it should be like a voicemail. The whole song should be a voicemail.


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[Assistant] Yeah. But I think, you know, that's, that's a song that's like, you know.


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[Assistant] If you want to write that song and prove it, you have to be like an asshole and break up with somebody on their birthday in a voicemail. And it's like, it's still a song that I'm really proud of and I enjoy it every time I play it with you live. And it's like, the fact that it isn't true in that specific instance doesn't mean that the


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[Assistant] You know, I think that's, that's just yet another sort of aspect of like...


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[Assistant] I think the way we've viewed, like I've written and produced with a couple other artists in a similar capacity to what I do with Billy.


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[Assistant] But I think when it's, when it's the project that we work on together,


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[Assistant] Any form of collaboration that makes its way in the music usually starts as like a friendship, you know, I think.


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[Assistant] Bleed is the best example of that. He's, he was a friend of both of ours, and uhm, we kinda knew.


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[Assistant] Like he's still as nice as the day we met him, which is so awesome and impressive considering everything that he's now, you know, had to go through.


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[Assistant] It was like 40% writing that song and 60% like weird YouTube videos.


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[Assistant] He's our personal favorite. I mean, we just love him. He's so awesome.


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[Assistant] Which, by the way, that was November 2015. So it was a long time ago in the span of our career at this point.


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[Assistant] The demo sounded very similar to the song Watch that ended up on the EP, like the first demo, but it was very like rudimentary demo.


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[Assistant] Really, really smart and really funny. We went to the studio like,


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[Assistant] We found out they were doing a session in like December. It was actually, it was the, they just, he just put out this song called Get the Fuck Off My Dick. It's a really good song.


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[Assistant] And they were recording that the night we were there. It was like him and DJ Dahi who produced it, who's awesome.


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[Assistant] Pretty good sort of summation of, of, of him and his wry sense of humor, but yeah, we, that was, we didn't meet him until after he'd cut the verse in, in Anburn and then after we put it out, we didn't get to meet him, so it was a real...


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[Assistant] Well, okay, so as a producer, I never really had any training as a producer, uhm, and most of the time...


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[Assistant] I don't really know what I'm doing and so to me it's all about like if I have an idea, I just try to execute that idea as opposed to like being virtuosic, which I'm not. Uhm, and in that song's case,


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[Assistant] I was in the shower one night and I started kind of like beatboxing this thing and I thought, I thought I have no idea what it's going to sound like but it would be really cool if this song that's about setting somebody's car on fire, if I made a beat out of like matches being ignited and I cut off like the tails of the sound of that, cause like a match being ignited kind of goes like


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[Assistant] And if you cut it off at a certain time, that in and of itself is super rhythmic, and we're always sort of striving for like, as minimal an approach as possible, so.


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[Assistant] Each sound that is in a song to me is like really important. There's not a lot of stuff hidden. There's not a lot of like, oh here's this great canvas of music and you might not even notice this thing going on there. Every piece has to be like,


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[Assistant] Very precise for, for me to feel really good about it. Uhm, so this song was like...


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[Assistant] Yeah, I mean it's almost sort of like a, like you know that group Stomp? That like,


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[Assistant] They do shows where they just like stomp and like sweep up. It's very kind of, yeaah, it sounds like, like ambience. Uhm, and so that was, that was really exciting to me and Billy and I literally like stood in.


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[Assistant] I was a student in our bathroom because I had cool acoustics, and she held a Tascam recorder, it was like a hundred dollars, and I flicked matches on a matchbox, and then she would blow them out. And then we went to the studio that we'd rented out for the month, and I just loaded all the sounds in and started building the beat.


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[Assistant] Oh yea, it was like, it was like our Apple garage. That was yea.


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[Assistant] When we're on tour, uhm, mom sort of serves as like Billy's


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[Assistant] Personal assistant slash day-to-day manager, and uhm, we brought our dad on the last run as our lighting director, which was really fun. So that's kind of their official job titles. But man, it's like having your whole family on a tour makes a tour feel like a lot more like a family vacation. It's pretty awesome.


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[Assistant] Uhm, yeaah. So dad and I would get up in the morning and go get coffee or, you know, find a donut shop in whatever city we were in. It was pretty awesome. I think that's...


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[Assistant] Yeah, I don't know. I think, I think a lot of the elements of tour that like, when I talk to friends of mine that are in bands that tour,


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[Assistant] They missed, like, their family. And we're like, nah, we're, we're good. Got our whole family with us. It's pretty awesome.


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[Assistant] Every little thing is, I mean, it's, it's very like, humbling and exciting and momentous, you know, kind of day to day. It's pretty, it's really, it's unfair. It's very cool. Yeah. I think, I mean, the thing that, the thing that like always


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[Assistant] Impact you most if it happens to you is is whatever you know you are already doing in your life like for example like I came to the ASCAP Expo at 16 and coming back at 20 like that's huge and like.


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[Assistant] I don't know, like, like, there's been like a couple like shows or things that we've been fans of and anytime we're involved, like, okay, there's like a frozen yogurt place in Glendale that we like love and we were in there and Ocean Eyes played and we were both just like, that's it, like, it's playing at Yoga Earth.


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[Assistant] It was a Tascam DR-05, which you can buy on Amazon for like $100, and it's just a, it's got its own like SD card, USB it into your computer, uhm, and it's a stereo pattern, and I just love the way anything in stereo sounds.


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[Assistant] Yeah, and there's, I think there's probably some compression on it ultimately, but if there is compression, it's like a stock logic plug-in compressor, and uh, yeah, I mean,


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[Assistant] I don't own any preamps, so no, no preamps on that. But yea, the, the DR05 is awesome.


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[Assistant] At the very, very beginning when it was just Ocean Eyes and Billy wasn't signed yet and we just started working with our management, Billy's really good at Instagram.


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[Assistant] She's really, really good at it, and I can't really, like, it's, it's,


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[Assistant] It's a little unquantifiable, but like at meet and greets and stuff, like I feel like 80% of the time kids are like, I found her on Instagram, and then like heard the music, and I think,


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[Assistant] Yeah, so Twitter and Instagram are kind of the kings of self-promotion and then, you know, we got really lucky. Most, like, the people that were sharing our song were sharing, like, as soon as one person found the song and sent it to another person, it, you know, it all kind of spread like that, which, you know,


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[Assistant] But my observation is that Billy's way better at Instagram than I am.


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[Assistant] Uhm, so, I mean, I didn't, I didn't have any, like, person that would say that they were my mentor, but I sort of globally decided kind of everyone was my mentor. If that makes any sense.


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[Assistant] Uhm, I was reading any forum I possibly could on websites like Reddit or Gear Sluts about, you know, uh, any form of production or knowledge or relationships with people and I was just really fascinated with the whole thing and a lot of it, you know, at the end of the day all music production is


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[Assistant] And all recording anything is, is, is sonics. It's all whatever it sounds like. There's kind of no visual to it. There's


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[Assistant] There are shiny rat compressors and beautiful speakers and beautiful studios, but the only thing that matters is how it sounds. And so to me, like, it was always a really fun challenge to hear something I loved and try to make something that emulated that sound. Not like, you know, hearing a song and then trying to rip off the song, but like if I heard a bass that I just thought really punched through, I'd try to


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[Assistant] If you Google like, I remember Googling like, what is the base synth on Frank Ocean's Nova Cane?


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[Assistant] And somebody was like, I think it's a trillion patch. Like, immediately I had kind of an answer to that, you know what I mean? And it was such a kind of a like, oh well duh, like I just always, it's always important to like, if you don't know something, just...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Try to ask somewhere, you know, because usually you'll find an answer really fast, which I thought was really cool, but I think, you know, I'm trying not to be as long-winded as possible, but uhm,


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[Assistant] The only thing that will really change your life is making something that sounds like nothing else.


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[Assistant] And those are always the things that I remember as being like the most formative listening to a band like The Strokes, who I think recorded drums with a kick mic and an overhead, and that was like their only drum setup. Because it sounds so unique and it's so different and it's memorable and you always think about it. So pairings that are unique, you know,


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[Assistant] Sounding as good as something else is very satisfying, but sounding like nothing else is probably the most valuable thing.


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[Assistant] Sports fam, we up in this thing. Shout out to the mighty who that nation man. Appreciate y'all chiming in.


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[Assistant] Early this Saturday morning, man, we're doing the stream. Much love to the fam. Appreciate y'all.


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[Assistant] Hope y'all having a fantastic weekend, start of your weekend. We're gonna cover some Saints news and items on this episode.


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[Assistant] of the coma. So shout out to the fan. Appreciate y'all. As always, please feel free to smack upon the like button, hit the subscribe button.


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[Assistant] And by all means, feel free to share the show on your social media feed. We up in this thing. So.


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[Assistant] Big ups to the fam as we get it popping and going. Day number three, recap of the.


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[Assistant] Saints camp and a lot of positive stuff, shaking and going during, uh, uh, during the camp, not a positive stuff. We're going to recap it here on the stream.


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[Assistant] The writers are doing a fantastic job dropping, boxing.


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[Assistant] Uh, college football, pro ball, pro basketball. It's all going down.


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[Assistant] On the stream. So shout out to the fan. Appreciate y'all for being in the stream as we keep it going in this episode of the show. So.


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[Assistant] It's big ups, big time, big shaking. Everything is positive.


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[Assistant] As we get going. So in this show, we're going to recap day three. We'll go over some news, notes, and items. We're going to talk about a few things. Also, we're going to talk about a few other developments that happened. Paul Trey Turner, his stuff. Blessings with him. Saints adding a new.


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[Assistant] Uh, coach to the, or assistant coach, potential coach there and, uh, shout out to Zach, uh, would getting his deal done.


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[Assistant] Ran up and we're going to react to a couple of press conferences.


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[Assistant] Uh, Dennis Allen and a couple other guys. So we not gonna kinda do the whole thing cause they released quite a few.


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[Assistant] of the saints stuff, uh, things going on. So it's pretty positive man to say that.


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[Assistant] To say the least, but it's very interesting man. Very interesting, very interesting.


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[Assistant] So anyway, let's get it popping fam. Let's get it going as we jump up here on the Saints News Network tip and show you what time it is. Day 3 Saints Training Camp is in the books.


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[Assistant] And here's a few notes from yesterday's practices, the Saints training camp notes observation from, uh, according to, uh, John's, uh, excuse me, Hendrix. And he was able to put a few things down. So.


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[Assistant] You know, they talked about Trevor Penning returning to the field after missing Thursday practice. He was participating in some drills, so that was good to see him back. Polaris, who left practice early, will also back in the mix. Big Kale and Saunders will play an interview by him to hear him. Keith Kirkwood had some issues, so did Shaq Davis.


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[Assistant] And of course, Ryan Ramchak and Ceasar Reeves planned their absence for the team as Dennis Allen said.


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[Assistant] A tree Turner went down with the injury during practice that ended up being acquired more on that later. So very unfortunate for him.


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[Assistant] Starting look saints at offensive line that consisted of Penning, Pete, McCoy, Throckmorton, and Storm Norton. To start later on, Pete got some work at the tackle position, left tackle, while Hurst kicked in at left guard.


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[Assistant] For the defense, the team rolled out the nickel look that have Cam, Kaelin Saunders, Brian Brisey, and Carl Granderson on the defensive line.


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[Assistant] Pete Werner and DiMario Davis were at linebacker with Bradley Roby at nickel. Paul's in the D bowl.


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[Assistant] Was on the outside opposite of Lattie Daddy while Marcus May and Tyron Matthew were at safety.


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[Assistant] Got an extra round of team drills in addition to the seven on sevens.


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[Assistant] In the 7 on 7, Derek Hall went 3 of 4, James was 4 of 4, Taysom went 1 of 2, and Jake Hayner completely completed both his attempts for the drills. Carr finished 6 of 7, he'll deny throw.


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[Assistant] During his series and Winston was 3 of 5, Hayner went 3 of 6. 7 on 7, Michael Thomas was the first target for


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[Assistant] Derek Carr, Marshawn Latimer made a great pass break up on the slant plant to get things started or play. That's what he meant.


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[Assistant] And finished with another short hookup to, to Jawan Johnson on the curl. But Winston.


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[Assistant] He had Keith Kirkwood on the comeback to start things on a nice hookup. Then he hit Keen Dre Mill on the angle route.


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[Assistant] On a pass where Miller had a good adjustment a little behind him to get the pass. Zach Bourne also had a good play on coverage.


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[Assistant] On the play, Winston hit Raekwon on the curl route on the next play and finished out with a completion over the middle to Enu Benjamin. During the Taysom series, he and Rashid Shahid started and missed a deep seam pass to Jesse James as well. It was a little overthrown and would have been a big hookup if he hit it. The play before saw Brian Edwards commit a false start and he was substituted out with the error.


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[Assistant] Jake Haner's rep saw completion to Kendre Mill in the flats, deep sideline hook up to Lynn Bowden Jr. Alontetale almost had the pass breakup on Miller Pass, working in the slot. Team drill number one, first play of Derrick Carr series is a good one. Well, worth being put out the play of the day category.


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[Assistant] The other play was the first series where runs with Jamal Williams, Kendrick Miller, Nelvin Kamara. Williams had a nice run in the middle. Kamara on the outside run left. They started to see a lot more running on the outside.


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[Assistant] Which is good side for the run game for the saints. They some came in the next series. He did two re two zone reads during the series.


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[Assistant] One to the left doing Jamal Williamson's run while the other went to the right after he knew Benjamin was stuffed inside.


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[Assistant] Jamus did a handoff for the first few plays of the series, which didn't go anywhere. Kirk Merritt went outside on the plate. Then Merritt Weather.


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[Assistant] The long pass was a back shoulder throw to James Washington. The timer was a little bit off. Team drill two.


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[Assistant] Car went 3-3 on the series. Started things when he knew Benjamin passed to the flats for a short game.


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[Assistant] Benjamin got another rushing to tip outside for a short gain on the next play. The action after the play.


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[Assistant] Well, a little animated for a short second between Penning and Granderson. Car then hit James Washington on the curl rope.


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[Assistant] Working against Jordan Howard and followed by a short completion to foster my role.


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[Assistant] Winston hit both of his passes on the series with the first hookup going to Crystal Lobby. That was worth mentioning.


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[Assistant] Jamal Williams had an inside run on the next play. Kendrick Miller caught a short pass on a roll off for the next play and closed the series with short outside run.


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[Assistant] Heyner got things started on the series by hitting Brian Edwards on the crossing route, working against Adrian Fry.


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[Assistant] Kirk Merritt had a rushing attempt that Nicolallo stopped quickly alongside Isaac Yidham.


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[Assistant] Mayweather got a short gain on the rushing attempt on the left side. Second pass intended for A.T. Perry was a bit behind on the deep route.


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[Assistant] Team drill three cars started the series, trying to hook up with Michael Thomas, working against Zach Vaughn in the flat, but the pass was a little low. Carl Grannison beat Penning.


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[Assistant] On the next play to force Carr to take off with the ball. The next play was a screen pass to Kendre Miller and then his series finished with a nice intermediate hookup to Chris Olavi.


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[Assistant] The next pass was incomplete to James Washington, then Kirk Merritt's run attempt was stopped by a loss by Nate Shepherd.


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[Assistant] Final play for Winston saw him hook up with Mike Thomas over the middle for a nice game. The final team period saw Hayner throw all of his plays.


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[Assistant] He missed the first two as the initial pass to Brian Edwards on the curl out was dropped. The second one was a pass breakup. He was trying to pass and yo and Hayner came back to hit Lynn Bowden for a short connection.


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[Assistant] With Nico Lollos providing some pressure. The final play with the Ellis Merriwether in the flat for a short game. The play of the day as mentioned.


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[Assistant] Any word Penning was quickly squashed after he had a huge play to kick off team drills.


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[Assistant] Car found Elvin Camarro on the screen playoff to the left side and Penning led the way for him to head on into the end zone.


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[Assistant] The other play was from a hookup between Jameis Winston and Chris Olavi.


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[Assistant] Winston fit the ball into the tight window with excellent coverage from Allante Taylor.


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[Assistant] And Olavi caught a nicely thrown pass and displayed some nice control to secure the pass.


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[Assistant] And of course the notes to make mention of for the third straight day Saints defense had a takeaway. The defense got their first interception from DeMarco Jackson.


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[Assistant] During the team drills off Jamis Winston pass intended for Rashid Shahid that went in and out of the hands. Taysom Hill was the quarterback.


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[Assistant] Today, getting some of the team drill reps ahead of Jake Hayner and James. Will Lutz had the first missed kick of training camp and Blake Grupe were.


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[Assistant] Perfect coming in from mini camp. Lutz was wide right on one of his kicks from 47 yards out, but finished six to seven. One thing to point out, not that it's necessary to do it anyway, is that Lou Hetley was the holder today. Remember? And that's usually what? Blake Gilligan?


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[Assistant] Alonti Taylor was working in the slot during team drills, but it was mostly with the third string look defense. Still his word known that he has been used there, right?


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[Assistant] Lewis Kidd was getting some work at the right tackle position during the third series of drills with Winston at the QB. Payton Turner continues to impress.


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[Assistant] He said he felt great on where he was at practice. He's someone that has, has been hard to ignore and he has two instances and team drills where he beat left tackle landing young and Scott Lashley.


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[Assistant] And it's been interesting to see if he can continue when the pads get on. And you know.


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[Assistant] This also to make mention of fam to talk about that as well as when you make mention of anything pertaining to


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[Assistant] When Dennis Allen was basically given his accolades to Payne Turner and we knew.


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[Assistant] You know, when we talked about the position opposite of Cam Jordan, the Saints invested a first round draft pick in the Peyton Turner. By all indications, they would definitely want Peyton Turner.


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[Assistant] To win the job opposite of Cam Jordan.


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[Assistant] Issue has been his health. If he can show and be consistent in terms of that help situation, he can have a, a great leap forward in terms of his, his, uh, his ability as a football player because the guy is strong and he is an athlete and it's just, if he can get beyond the injuries, you'll be a solid player for the Saints at that position. So, uh, Peyton Turner,


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[Assistant] Big question mark if he could, man. I'm really hoping the kid can finally get past it, man. Sometimes it happens when you get past it, you know what I'm saying? Anyway, let's finish up.


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[Assistant] She said after practice, he and Chris Olavi were constantly working to get better. She mentioned that he watches Olavi every day to see what he can emulate from his game. That is, that's very good. I'll be watching Mike too.


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[Assistant] Jawan Johnson referred to the Titan Room as the Ninja Turtles with Jimmy Graham serving as Master Splendor. He identified himself as Donatello.


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[Assistant] Uh, for those that's interesting. Okay, the Ninja Turtles, that's interesting. A little throwback there. Kaila Saunders said one of the things that drew


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[Assistant] A good understanding of things and how to implement and how to implement it. And that has been said several times before.


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[Assistant] When we talked about Joe Woods, when they first brought Joe Woods, it always, when you bring some of these coaches in, especially if it's a new coach, a defensive coordinator.


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[Assistant] You bring them in here. The first thing I usually do is go out and find out or find some tape or film on this coach and I'll watch instructional.


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[Assistant] Videos from him instructing the team that he came from to figure out, let me see if Joe Woods got something going on here.


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[Assistant] When I first listened to him, I played a lot of that on the template. Listen to this guy.


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[Assistant] I did the same thing for Cody Burns when the Saints first brought Cody Burns here. I listened to Ty Grantham when he was at his last stop. And there's several when you, when you see how they instruct and you can get a feel for what they're going to bring. And Joe Woods.


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[Assistant] Uh, as, as good as it gets in terms of his instruction. Like, everybody loved Joe Woods, cause Joe Woods...


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[Assistant] Is detailed, centered, but I think the biggest part outside the details is his ability to.


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[Assistant] Communicate the game or the fundamental aspect of what he's trying to get his players to do. He's a good communicator. He's not...


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[Assistant] One of these guys that, uh, that's gonna just, you know, uh, just blare out and curse at you. No, Joe Woods instructs. He's very respectful. Uh, he tells you exactly what you need to do. And if you're messing up, Joe Woods will explain to you what he wants you to do and why he wants you to do it.


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[Assistant] It's not just that I'm just going to do this. Why am I doing this? Because of this, that, and the third, and that's something that Joe Woods does really well. So this is the several, this is the several defensive back or the seven defensive back, several defensive backs that we're mentioning the detailed focus nature of Joe Woods. And then of course you listen to him on the, on film, you listen to him on interviews and you see what kind of guy he is and how, um,


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[Assistant] It's just a lot of the players find it as a joy to be able to deal with a guy like Joe Woods, who's the Saints defensive coordinator.


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[Assistant] So yeaah, he dealing with Dennis Allen is going to require some patience.


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[Assistant] But yeaah, this is very positive nonetheless. So good news right there from the practices. Like I said, a lot of it right now in helmets and shirts.


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[Assistant] And you won't truly kind of see a lot of this stuff bail out of until they start putting that.


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[Assistant] But anyway, before we get to the rest of the stories, let's go ahead on and pop in here and hear what Dennis Allen had to say about his camp, about what happened today or yesterday at Saints Camp.


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[Assistant] I must say that, you know, based on what I've been watching a lot of the press conferences from Dennis Allen.


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[Assistant] That, uh, you can, you can basically see in terms of how the offense is, it's the same thing last year. He's going to handle with the offense, the defense.


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[Assistant] We know he knows how to coach defense. That's not nothing to it.


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[Assistant] Because he got his guys and I think a lot of that he'll be heavily relying on Joe Woods to have the.


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[Assistant] To be the boss of the defense, you see, because really, even though Dennis Allen, uh, still behaves like a defensive coordinator, he calls the defensive plays and.


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[Assistant] Passes the offense to Pete Carmichael and say you have total autonomy over every anything that goes on with the offense.


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[Assistant] So more of a relaxed fit, more of his guys there. Would the stratagem work? It could work if Dennis Allen is willing to take counsel from a Joe Woods. And I really do think he would.


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[Assistant] Take counsel. Joe Woods makes, and I had a chance as I was thinking about it, but still know as a head coach, you gotta learn some things.


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[Assistant] But if he could take counsel from Joe Woods, who seems like a pretty wise guy.


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[Assistant] In terms of the defense and things circulating around that, I think that helps improve him. That helps out if he takes counsel from him.


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[Assistant] So would this method work? It didn't work last year in so far as.


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[Assistant] Uh, what the offense was happening, but Pete Carmichael, you give him a quarterback that he could work with.


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[Assistant] For a full year guy that can throw the ball down the field, you have Dennis Allen with all his pieces on the defense and his new coaches to the staff. He does show a more relaxed aura around the team, but also realize that.


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[Assistant] How, uh, the, who that nation going to put up with a third straight year of nine playoff football to just, it just won't, will not be a very pretty sight. So.


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[Assistant] Could very well work if he can rely on the trusted people that he brought in for their counsel. That will help you.


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[Assistant] Become a better head coach if you can rely on that man. So let's see.


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[Assistant] And this is the thing too, we said this before and I know it's fun to talk about the camp battles. It gets things interesting, like one of the top.


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[Assistant] Once was the Alante Taylor versus Paulson, the Deebo. Me personally, and just, just me talking.


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[Assistant] And the reason why I think he gets it is because I think Dennis Allen really likes Alonti Taylor to be right where he is now. Alonti Taylor explodes and takes it to another level, who knows. But he was drafted to be that guy.


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[Assistant] Remember and, and, and I won't forget that. Remember when they drafted him.


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[Assistant] They had Chauncey Gardner Johnson at the nickel position and they've seen Alontay Taylor as a guy to operate as an insurance policy.


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[Assistant] For that nickel position. He can also play the safety position. When the D-Bow.


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[Assistant] Was heard he was able to slide out and play outside, but only when the Debo wasn't there.


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[Assistant] And people are looking at Paul Sinodibo like he's, you know, like whatever, but Luantetail is very talented, but Paul Sinodibo still has a full year of NFL experience over.


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[Assistant] Alante Taylor is about to go into his sophomore year. That's a sophomore slump that Paulson and Adibo had to deal with last year. They all go through that. Some handle a little bit better than others.


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[Assistant] But Paul Sinadibo went through his slump. I don't expect Paul Sinadibo.


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[Assistant] To, to, to be, to regress and be what he was in his sophomore year after all of the work that he's put in. He had the injuries, stuff like that happened to him. I expect Paul's in the D-Bowl to improve bit drastically.


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[Assistant] And I can't discount one year. He had a full year, a year more than what Alonti Taylor's had in the system, in the NFL, used to the game. And the Pauls and the Devos, not a bad cornerback at all.


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[Assistant] So I still say Paul Sinodibo starts opposite of Laddy Daddy and Alontay Taylor will be what Dennis Allen wanted him to be, which is in the slot and whatever he want him to do outside of that.


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[Assistant] But I think that's pretty much what he was supposed to be, the replacement for Chauncey Gardner Johnson. That's just what we seen it as. Remember, that's what the draft, that's what it was. And I don't see Dennis Allen changing that formula.


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[Assistant] Anything can happen, right? But if I had to bet on it, I would have to say I think Paulson or Debo still keeps that position.


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[Assistant] Because Dennis Allen is not lying. He's not lying about that.


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[Assistant] And if we take a look at any competition and to be honest with you, what other positions are up for grab?


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[Assistant] Paulson Adibos cornerback position. And I said this before Paulson Adibos position is not up for grabs. That starter position ain't up to grabs. That's just something. I think that's just a topic.


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[Assistant] Of discussion that's thrown in there for, for, you know, to banter about, to create excitement about training camp. Paulson Adibou's job is not in jeopardy. It's not. I mean, like I said, that's just, just how I see it. His job is not in jeopardy.


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[Assistant] What other positions, and if you go across the starting positions on the Saints team, offense, defense.


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[Assistant] With all the positions outside of the defensive end position outside of cam is up for grabs.


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[Assistant] And then of course there'll be a battle at the interior.


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[Assistant] The opposite spot of Kaelin Saunders, which is Nate Shepard and Brian Breesey. There'll be a competition there.


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[Assistant] There is no other positions that you can point to and say there's going to be a competition for that position. Is Jawan Johnson's job in jeopardy as a starting tight end?


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[Assistant] Or is foster my role merely a compliment for Jawan Johnson? Where does Jimmy Graham fit in there?


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[Assistant] Is he a serious, could anybody out there say that Jimmy Graham and yet we've yet to hear from Jimmy Graham, I would love to hear from Jimmy Graham for him being back first time, coming back to the saints in years.


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[Assistant] But what other positions are there that's seriously up for grabs outside of the defensive end position? And the opposite tackle position to Cale and Saunders?


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[Assistant] Talk about maybe the third linebacker position, which I don't think so. I think the third linebacker position or less injury.


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[Assistant] Hurts. The Saint sees Zach Bowen as a person that's going to make a Kate and Ellis type.


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[Assistant] Move. That's what they're looking at. They're thinking Zach Bowen might have that. He'd been here for four years. Might be time for him to make that move.


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[Assistant] That's how they viewing it. The Saints not bringing any linebackers in to compete with him right away. Of course that could change his injuries mount. But like, I don't see Paul's in the Deebo job in jeopardy.


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[Assistant] I just think that's something that was thrown in camp. I think Dennis Allen likes Alonti Taylor where he is.


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[Assistant] Okay. He could play the cornerback position. You play the safety positioning. He's that guy that gives them duality. That's the same thing that Johnson, Gardner Johnson did for the saints. When they dropped the chance, the chance it was a safety.


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[Assistant] But they had him playing around the line because he's such a tremendous tackle and latte tail is the same kind of do. So I really.


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[Assistant] Chauncey Gardner Johnson role is even though he's not here, that's Alante Taylor's job.


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[Assistant] That's why they replaced them with Alantay TLCM probably is a little bit more stable mentally and you know, whatever, but outside of it, that's, that's pretty much what's going on here.


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[Assistant] I don't see Adebo's job in jeopardy unless he severely regresses and you know, whatever, but.


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[Assistant] Dennis Allen is going to tell you if it ain't broke, I'm not going to fix it.


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[Assistant] We got our, we got our nickel guard and, uh, and I think probably not, like I said before, I think a D bulls.


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[Assistant] Wins out, not just stink, that's a topic that was thrown up there just to have something interesting to talk about with camp.


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[Assistant] But how many other positions are, uh, positions that are out there that are up for grabs? Dennis Allen makes a good point on that. Let's go back to.


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[Assistant] Because the saints did that every which way. Even at the fullback position with Adam Prentice, they bring in Jake Boggess.


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[Assistant] Alone to go along with that, to create the competition. Nobody should, you know, even though some of these other guys have the inside track.


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[Assistant] You still have to look at it and say to yourself, I see what this thing's doing and the competition model is fruitful because it does keep guys on their, on their heels.


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[Assistant] And, and of course the Will Lutz thing was obviously 74% last year kicking. That's not going to cut it. You, you just, you're making that kind of money in the final year of his deal. And if Group A comes in here and Lutz slips a bit, it could be a problem. Especially what kind of money, me personally, you know,


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[Assistant] Learn the lessons of the past, man. Don't forget nothing. We don't forget anything. That's how you, and that's the thing people tell you, forget history and all that and then try to rewrite everything, re-talk it over or whatever. Oh, you know, don't forget, I don't care how unpleasant it was. You never forget it.


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[Assistant] You know, look at like, to the Native American community or the, and I know this is something more serious than football, but from a historical standpoint, you know, even with the Jewish community, you never forget


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[Assistant] Your history, because you'd be doomed to repeat it. That's how it works. Cause history operates a cycle. So as long as you keep up.


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[Assistant] As even as unpleasant as it is, I don't care if it's pleasant or unpleasant.


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[Assistant] Remember it and understand and the saints do a good job of remembering.


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[Assistant] Their history to understand, listen, order to improve.


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[Assistant] We gotta remember what happened to us last year and the year before.


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[Assistant] And then we move it forward. That's the purpose supposed to be one of the purposes of analytics that add


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[Assistant] History in terms of the numbers add more of a mathematical approach.


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[Assistant] To the analytics to show them in terms of graphs and pie charts and all this kind of stuff to make sure they're trending in the correct direction.


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[Assistant] But the saints are doing positive things and creating competition is always a positive thing. Competition in every room, the tight end room competition all over the place. But you know, I digress. I ask you once again, are there any other positions?


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[Assistant] Outside that are up for grabs. Cause I don't think Paul Sinodibo's position is up for grabs. I'm sorry.


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[Assistant] I think Alontay Taylor has his position inside. I don't think Dennis Allen likes Paulson or Deebo where he is. Unless he severely...


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[Assistant] Regresses in year three and I'm not anticipating that even with some of the, the first seven days of several days of camp, Olsen and Diebold has been pretty solid out there and that's early on.


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[Assistant] We still got a long camp left. So outside of the opposite defensive end position, which Dennis Allen spoke well of Peyton Turner. Only thing changes that is if.


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[Assistant] Two things, Peyton Turner regresses in terms of his injury situation.


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[Assistant] Uh, hurts him where he is not in there competing in Carl Granderson, Isaiah Foskey and others. You're not opportunity to step in or.


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[Assistant] You know, he just don't pick it up and another guy ball passes him. But when you draft.


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[Assistant] A guy with the first round draft pick, you need to get value for that pick and the saints will not go.


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[Assistant] They will not have two defensive ends that they draft.


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[Assistant] That they're drafted in the last several years and both of them be bums and not bums, but busts. We know Davenport was absolute unmitigated bust for us.


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[Assistant] But for Peyton Turner to follow Davenport, that's not the same. He's going to give that up.


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[Assistant] Pain Turner, every opportunity that they possibly can to win that job. It just, it's just what it is.


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[Assistant] So outside of the defensive imp, I mean the defensive imp position.


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[Assistant] It's just a battle between Nate Sheppard and our first round draft pick Brian Breezy. And remember what I said about first round picks? You want the first round pick to get the job. So.


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[Assistant] From NewDeadDaily.com, shout out to Avery Devereaux, one of our several really excellent writers that's really putting in that work, man. I appreciate y'all, man. He doing really good work.


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[Assistant] Former Pro Bowl guard, Trey Turner, stint when the Orleans Saints got off to a devastating start as he suffered a season-ending quadricep tear during the 11-11 drills. On Thursday, the 30-year-old who recently signed with the Saints was anticipated to be a key addition to the team's offensive line. As you can see, Adam Schefter dropping it.


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[Assistant] Having played for various teams, including the Panthers, Commanders.


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[Assistant] And charges along with the Steelers Turner's absence will undoubtedly be felt on the field. Meanwhile, the Saints also had some positive news.


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[Assistant] And they talk about pen and returning to practice from a due, a, a absence due to a minor foot injury.


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[Assistant] And if, uh, they opted to give rest to Ryan Ramchick and Cesar Ruiz, so.


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[Assistant] Prayers and blessings, prayers out to Trey Turner, man.


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[Assistant] I hope for the season, but something tells me that Trey, this ain't over with for Trey Turner. Trey Turner will be back here and he'll give it another shot here, man. So.


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[Assistant] Uh, shout out to Trey Turner. Sorry to hear that, man. And blessings to you, my brother. You will be back with the black and gold next year.


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[Assistant] Also Saints hire another one of Dennis Allen's former players to their coaching staff. And this is from the Saints wire dropping the scoop.


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[Assistant] And, uh, Underhill reported that the Saints have hired another one of Dennis Allen's former players today. Coaching staff bringing in Matt Giordano.


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[Assistant] To work with the secondary. Giordano played in the NFL from 2005 to 2013.


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[Assistant] Twice crossing paths with Allen, first with the Saints in 2010 and later with the Raiders in 2012.


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[Assistant] We left the team early this year. He played college football at California, began his coaching career.


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[Assistant] At his old high school before returning to the pros from high school to the pros. How about that?


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[Assistant] Saints have a number of former players on their coaching staff already, including offensive assistant Jari Evans, this year's training camp intern Leroy Gullover. How about that?


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[Assistant] They also invited former wide receiver Ted Gingini to join them for camp.


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[Assistant] As another coaching intern and it's good to see former players getting those opportunities to advance their careers after


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[Assistant] Turning to coach, you know, so Marcus Robinson is that secondary coach is a former safety in his own right.


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[Assistant] That's there. So this is just more of what Dennis Allen is doing. Just more Dennis Allen assembling his coaches. Peyton's guys out, Dennis Allen guys in.


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[Assistant] Uh, starting to feel more in his mind, like more relaxed and more competent with some of these guys. So you would expect to see a lot of that kind of.


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[Assistant] Translating the success and it's a good energy to see it because you can see him really kind of feeling like he can rely on people that he's coached before. So, uh, he's assembling his guys.


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[Assistant] You know, this is his group, it's his guys and he's doing what he's got to do to make them all happy here. So anyway, let's go on to our next interview here. This is Big Kaelin Saunders as Cam called him. Big, Big Saunders. He called him Kaelin and Cam said he got mad at him.


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[Assistant] About camping the heat, man. Yeah, it's hot out there, bro. And uh, Big Saunders, that's probably why he dropped that 10 pounds sweating his ass off at the camp.


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[Assistant] Yeah, Kaila Asada is absolutely right, man. Like, we study film on him.


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[Assistant] And he's a guy, he's absolutely right. He knows what his game is.


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[Assistant] He doesn't move like, like gravity doesn't have the same effect. I mean, he'll tack in straight line speed, like he'll chase you down.


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[Assistant] Runs, you know, he attacks faster than his more athletic counterparts do. And not only that.


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[Assistant] But he has an exceptional awareness about where you are. Like if you were making the past.


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[Assistant] Whether it's deals with gap protection or protecting this gap so guys don't slip out.


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[Assistant] Or if it's, or if it's him pushing the pocket. The saints did their homework and say listen.


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[Assistant] This guy does something exceptionally well. He fights for every...


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[Assistant] Play when the whistle, he fights is every place out there fighting. He has a high motor.


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[Assistant] He's very in, in, in, he's really intelligent, had a lot of success in Kansas City.


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[Assistant] Bringing that mentality to the New Orleans Saints is a, is a big bonus. Having them with a suit winning, winning the championship and bringing that championship energy to the Saints defense is, is a, is a big plus. So we need


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[Assistant] Another guy there, a new David on Yamada who signed and I, and only time will tell how good Kaelin Sanders could be. But man, listen, his game translates really well.


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[Assistant] And the saints have athletes all over the defensive line. And that's the big thing when you talk about.


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[Assistant] Athletes, athletes, the Saints have athletes there, you know, whether it's Isaiah Foskey, whether it's Carl Granderson, whether it's Peyton Turner, whether it's Big Saunders, whether it's Nate Shepard or Brian Brees.


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[Assistant] These guys are fantastic athletes first and they get after you. They'll get after you.


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[Assistant] Absolutely, because if, if Kaelin Sanders is doing his job and I think he will do his job well in the Black and Gold building.


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[Assistant] He, he does a job which is provide interior pressure.


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[Assistant] And stop in the run and then provide a, you know, stop in the run.


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[Assistant] Providing a push up them, uh, up the center of the offensive line and getting the double, drawing the double team. If he does that, he, he's doing his job. He's doing his job full time because.


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[Assistant] For Double D and Pete Werner to have the type of success they're supposed to have.


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[Assistant] One of our interior defensive linemen has to be drawing a double team.


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[Assistant] You know, to keep that extra guy off them linebackers so they can roam around and make those plays.


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[Assistant] So Kaelin Saunders was brung in giving the big bucks him and Nate Shepard and Brian Breshear to do just that.


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[Assistant] Love, love the energy in his voice. Do you hear that? The energy in his voice, very intelligent, high motor guy.


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[Assistant] And that's what you get with big Kay, with big Saunders.


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[Assistant] Not only no understanding the tendencies of the guys, that's going to take some time. That's what training camp's about.


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[Assistant] You know, training camp pre-season and probably the first month of the season.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] As you pick up a lot of it, but the reality is.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Dennis Allen's defensive scheme is not terribly complicated. It really isn't. You know.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It's not terribly complicated and they've been saying that before. He's at times, remember in the past that goes into Sean Payton's years.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] There was a system in skiing that was put there, they were struggling, they were having problems. Several years before Coach Payton departed and left, uh, to go, you know, to talk about the game on television.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] There was a discussion about Dennis Allen having issues and even Cam Jordan and several other players on the defensive line was talking about the scheme and.


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[Assistant] Him simplifying the scheme that he was operating with. Remember that? And then Dennis Allen simplified the scheme and he had this.


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[Assistant] He had prolonged success with the defense. Last year, the Saints second defense overall played pretty well.


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[Assistant] And they talk about, okay, what happened with the run? The run was the weakest part. Oh, the interior defensive line was the weakest part of the Saints defense last year. But also remember.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Go and look at the statistics on the time of possession, how often the Saints defense was out there.


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[Assistant] On the field because the offense ineptitude because of the dysfunctional.


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[Assistant] And forcing the defense to get back out there. Things change if you don't spend all of that time out there on the field trying to stop your adversary and your offense is actually putting points up and they're having


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Drives with their scoring points and giving the defense an opportunity, uh, to rest.


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[Assistant] But it's different, like even in the energies, like it sparks different. It just goes to show you.


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[Assistant] Like when the Saints offense is sparking, let's say if they spark it and they scoring points and they put 21 points up real quick.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And the defense is out there, whatever that energy that the offense sparked.


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[Assistant] Jumps onto the defense and it's, it's, it's just, it's all a part of the dynamic, you know what I mean? As opposed to one of those grueling out games where the offense can't find its footing.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And the defense is on the field for five to eight plus minutes trying to stop the opposing offense.


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[Assistant] That stuff wore on the Saints defense last year as well. It really did.


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[Assistant] And like I said, the defense was tasked with being the key unit or the lead unit last year.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And that's not going to help you unless the offense could at least run the ball and be consistent, which they weren't able to do.