[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, you know, if I'd only done this presentation three years ago, no, I don't think it would have made any difference at all. But we are seeing a lot of regulations and things coming down the pipe that are really based on


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, this, this, uh, first sort of model. I've talked about the EU Digital Services Act. I've talked about Texas and Florida's laws. Um, India is also, uh, establishing these grievance applet committees where you can appeal a system, uh, up to a government-appointed appeals body.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Those are only some, you know, individual examples. Uh, we've also seen, uh, this model implemented in the form of the, uh, meta-oversight board, which I'm also happy to talk about, uh, much more. I've thought and, uh, uh, thought and written about it quite a bit.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But one of the reasons why I think its impact and its potential has been is limited.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Content back up and think about changing your hate speech a lot of the time. Uhm, so as someone that was sort of


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Somewhat optimistic about, uh, the Supreme Court when it first, uh, was announced in 2018. Instead of being a Supreme Court, is it sort of more like the DMV? Uh, instead of revolutionizing online speeches, is it gonna sort of marginally maybe improve it just a little bit? Uhm, so I've really had my expectations tempered on that one because I think it reflects this much more, uh, juridical kind of model.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, and I'm also happy to talk about this, I don't know how interesting it is for audiences, but


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, for, for you, but there are a bunch of, this is a really live legal issue, like really, really live and, um, there are a number of.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Cases on the Supreme Court's docket this term and next term.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It's very exciting, uhm, and the Supreme Court is going to be thinking about how to, uhm, should platforms be liable for the ways in which they amplify, uh, content.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And one of the things that I think is informing this case, happy to talk about it more, is that


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] A lot of the way that the law and lawyers and potentially judges think about content moderation and amplification is like there's an individual piece of content that the platform is picking up and like


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Cases, except to say that the NetChoice cases there that I've put up there, those are the ones arising out of the Texas and Florida laws that we talked about that impose all of these procedural obligations on platforms. And so, the thing I want to emphasize is like,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] These could be, you know, some of the most important internet speech cases in a generation. They really could transform the way that this legal landscape...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Judges, lawyers are reaching for this old model of thinking about how do we think about, um, speech regulation and, uh, importing it into a new context. So, uh, with that, uhm, I'm happy to chat, hear your thoughts, uhm, whatever happens next.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I blamed lawyers a lot in this picture for, in this presentation for how we've ended up here, but I also think platforms are really responsible as well in a way because if you are talking about, especially the large platforms when they talk about content moderation, uhm,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Focusing on individual decisions means you stay away from the systems that they're designing. Uhm, and so, you know, Meta and, and, and YouTube, you know, they already have this bureaucracy in place, and so if you say,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You know, our regulation says you need to construct an appeal system and provide reasons. Meta and YouTube are like, hey, here's one I prepared earlier. Uhm, and all the other platforms are like, oh no. Uhm, and so I think there's an ecosystem that is uhm,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Reactions to the, to the costs of that as well. So, Gonzalez, which is at the Supreme Court in, uh, in next month, uhm, it had amicus briefs last.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] We are seeing auditing requirements being imposed in legislation. So for example, the Digital Services Act in Europe says that platforms have to have, do a risk assessment and think about having their systems audited to see the risks of their content moderation systems in the world and have that independently audited.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Right, well yeaah, how do you divorce, uh, exactly, I mean, that's a whole other question for sure, but even just auditing whether the systems are working as they are intended to work, whether we think that what they are intended to do is good or not, uhm, like,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, there is no content moderation auditing industry currently.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] There absolutely will be in 10 years as a result of this digital services act. So it's like a full employment program for the lawyers and if you want a job go to Europe and you can audit content moderation systems and that could be really, really good as long as they don't just become box ticking compliance.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Direction that is, that is, uhm, beneficial to the major players, so yeaah.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, so I mean, I think it's a great point that in some sense, uhm, platforms offer


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Content moderation, what do we, what do we want to, like, appeal systems or, like, as a, uh, consumer...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Service. Uhm, like, and to the extent that they do, like, I mean, it's not purely...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Because they believe deep in their hearts in the importance of getting speech decisions right for the benefit of democracy. It's because they want their users to be happy. So to the extent that they, like, want to do it for the, you know, uh, benefit of their business, they should. My concern is that it is being imposed in law in a very un-nuanced


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Every platform, regardless of their content moderation model or their problems, must give these processes in every case.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Like the way that these are written, for example, at the moment, it would count spam removals. Uhm, and, uh, having to provide a reason, I'm not convinced that the...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, cost-benefit trade-off is right in that case.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You're right that in some cases, so, so what I want is more of an ex-ante calculation of like, are our errors in this particular category of the kind that will be benefited from having extra review and having explanations to users? And will there be legitimacy dividends? Because for example, you can definitely imagine that yes, many spammers are going to be upset.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, but there might be other categories where that's different. I want that decision made at the level of system design rather than after the fact.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But also, and this makes lawyers and many people uncomfortable,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] To say, sometimes users can be upset.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Like, we don't want to go too far in the opposite direction of not paying attention to user experience and things like that, but uhm,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But I, I, I'm not convinced that this fixes that problem anyway. Uhm, like there are just some people that will appeal and appeal and appeal and still be really angry at the end, uhm, regardless of how much reason you get, you give them.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It's tricky and I don't know what the optimal, like I'm, I'm very humble about saying I don't know what the optimal level of appeal system and due process is. I'm not convinced that one blanket mandate of saying like this in every case, like the old legal system in every case is going to be the optimal. That assumption I think is wrong.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, it's a great question and you know, you watch the congressional hearings with the...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, the tech CEOs, uhm, which I'm sure you all do, uhm, and, uhm, and, you know, ex-exactly that. A senator's like, you know, my neighbor posted blah, and it got taken down, your platform is corrupt, right? It's like, it's really focused on, like, it's that individual experience that becomes really tangible. Sometimes it's, you know, campaign videos or, or whatever, and, uhm, it


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It is, like I really do think there is something about


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The hold that speech has, especially in the American imagination actually, uhm, that is very hard to dislodge that metaphor because saying to an American lawyer,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Maybe sometimes we can get speech decisions wrong, is like...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Not a popular thing to say. Uhm, and, and so, so it is really, really hard. There's this notion that speech is special and we're not going to tolerate errors in a speech context that we might, that we do every day in...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Traffic offences and social security administration and like the legal system is set up understanding that there are errors in all of these other contexts uhm, that it, that is very difficult to, to shift in, in uhm,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] In, in this context, the only way to do it is, like, through, uhm,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Explanation and education and, and trying to like, uh, I mean, very open, we can brainstorm some metaphor ideas, uhm, but, but explaining how complicated these systems are and, and, and the difficulty of, uhm, of, of,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] of getting every decision right, like trying to explain the scale and the complexity and the technological complexity, you know, people don't understand why, why didn't the Christchurch video just get obliterated from the internet within two minutes after it was, like, surely everyone can see that this is horrific, but not understanding that the technical


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It so disincentivizes transparency at the moment, uhm, which I think is a real...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Because if a platform explains, oh, we get this wrong a lot, but here's why, uhm, all the people are gonna hear is, oh, we get this wrong a lot. And that's why I talk about this as like the, the, the YouTube strategy, uhm, because like meta for a while, for a long time has tried to be


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And so, I don't know how you fix up. I don't know how you fix politics. Uhm, but yeaah, I agree, it's a real problem.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] When I was using institutional design, uhm, there, I meant, uh,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I guess both, I meant the interaction between our regulatory systems and our private content moderation systems and how do we design that, uh,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Both of those institutions and the interaction between them, which I think is very complicated.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And I think it is, it's complicated, um, further by the heterogeneity in both.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Places, so I think one of the problems is that uhm, we do think of platforms as like,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Every platform is meta, and I think if you, or Facebook, and if we talk to


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] What's happening in these cases and in these laws, uhm, is that you see


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Talking about this with someone this morning, uhm, like one of the more valuable things that we can do in the education, uh,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Amicus briefs for Gonzales, uhm, which I mentioned earlier. One of the most valuable briefs was from a bunch of Reddit moderators, uhm, who, who like, uh, the, the moderators of rrequestrian, uhm, where they talk about horses, and they're like,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Whoa! Yo, Justice Alito, Justice Thomas, what we do is like really different from what Meta does. Uhm, we, you know, our form of moderation is really different. And so, uhm, I meant it in a very general sense, uhm, and I think explaining why we need to think about it in a general sense is important.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeah, I mean I'd love to turn that question back on all of you because I'm sure that some people in this room have some really rich thoughts about that. Uhm, it is an extremely popular, uh, legal reform idea to...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Ban anonymity, uhm, it, it comes up, we, we do.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, behave better, uhm, and, uh, it, it, it, uh,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Everything will be solved. Uhm, and, uh, I mean, my personal view is that it's not the case, that research shows that anonymity doesn't necessarily, uh, you know, make spaces healthier. We just need to look at Facebook's real name policy to see a lot of the problems with


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] A, enforcing that, and B, that, you know, Facebook is hardly, uhm, utopia, uhm, and from,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] If you're thinking globally, uhm, in, in, uh, jurisdictions where


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Being forced to identify with your, uh, online persona could have, you know, quite extreme, uh, costs, uhm, for people in Iran, Turkey, uhm, India.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, and many other countries, it's, you know, don't mean that they're just ones I've been thinking about recently. So, uh, my short answer is, um, it's, again, I think one of the reasons, one of the reasons why we see these reforms and like get rid of anonymity or add an appeal system is it's really easy to write.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Like, it's like a law that's like, it's really, you can just write it down in two seconds on paper and it just, like, it's, it's, it's a simple thing that lawmakers, like, uhm, don't have to think too hard about. So it's, it's, it's simple and intuitive, uhm, but I think that, that it, uhm, has significant costs if we think about it. So, like, in those terms.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yeaah, I mean this is one of the, uh,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It's one of the terrifying things, I think one of the things that makes tech policy so much harder is like the...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You know, the famous example of this is in one of the very first congressional hearings where someone asks Mark Zuckerberg, how do you make money? And he's like, Senator, we run ads.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] A lot of them do not understand these ecosystems. Uhm, and I think to their credit, the later hearings have been better due to some staff work. But I think you're absolutely right, like Texas and Florida, uh, Ron DeSantis and Ken Paxton, the point of that law, those laws was not


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I think that's much less the case with like, for example, the European Union legislation, which I think is genuinely like they've gone through a very long process of like meaningfully trying to understand the systems and craft


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, beneficial, uh, uh, legislation.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, and then I guess it's interesting to note how similar in some respects parts of those bills look, given that they're, uhm, with such different motivations. Uhm, uh,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So, I mean, I think, I think, in answer to your question, uh, no, uhm, they don't necessarily understand it, and worse, sometimes their motivation is not to understand it, uhm, is to, to, uh, for other reasons, which is the way that


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, politics pans out but that's not universally true. I think there are people who genuinely want to understand this and genuinely interested in the effects of it and I think we have seen some of the worst bills and reform proposals are headed off for that reason. I think that we


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Part of our legal system has, is, you know, you have, we have to have faith in the ability to sort of push the Titanic towards better policy, uhm, despite, you know, uphill.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That's a terrible, I mixed metaphors there, now the Titanic's going uphill, but uhm, I think you get my drift. Yeah.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] No, it's not mean at all. I think it's actually a really, really rich question, uhm, in a couple of ways. Uh, cause first the question is like, when I said we need to inform the conversation better.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Which conversation do I mean? There are many conversations. Do I necessarily mean, like, the general public or your parents? Or do I mean the conversation in the halls of Congress? Uh, and I think those are both important, but they might look very different in terms of what we want people to understand. Like,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You know, this is something I think about a lot in the context of like the meta oversight board, where, you know, the whole point of this is like we're going to make content moderation more legitimate and look at it like it has better, you know, processes and, and, um, and give more transparency and accountability. And it's like, I don't know.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] To different parts of this problem. Uhm, but you know, I think.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The other thing, I think one of the things that makes this so hard is this is one of the most genuinely interdisciplinary problems, I think.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Out there, uh, in terms of, you know, you were talking about like, um, you know, getting into these, these companies and moderators have different skills and computer scientists have different skills. And then we want, you know, uh, uh, lawyers. And I think part of the problem is coming up with common terms and language and that's.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Part of the reason why I hope that these conversations are valuable in trying to understand ways


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uhm, to, to talk about these things more productively. So again, it's, you know, I don't have like a, a 30 minute video that everyone can watch and finally understand the complexities of content moderation systems, but I do think that like starting to sort of


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, you know, is, is a more productive way forward.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That's the same thing. He was a teacher in a college in America.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It was my idea. But Pilar told me to come.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] She said we would all die tomorrow. But you know it as well as she does, but you give it no importance.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And my mother's words were in my head like a scream that went on and on. Then I could feel a pain. And they were pulling at my hair and cutting it off with the razor and, and then they, they put the braids in my mouth and tie them around my neck to make gag. And they ran clippers across my head.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Oh, I could hear her screaming all the time they were shoving me across the square. And into the doorway and up the stairs of the city hall.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I learn from Pilar and then as I learn I discover things for myself and other things you can tell me.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] She says there's no pain. It's nothing if you press quickly and firmly. And that they can't stop it if it's done.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Then if you're sick, I'll take care of you. I'll make soup for you and read to you.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Neither do I. I like your hair the way it is.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Yes, in America, the one you told me about when you were a little boy. There's the stairway turn at the top like this.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Man, what a horse! Never mind the horse, get in the saddle. This horse has made tracks in here, he's got to make them out again.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Your eyes open, there's bound to be more cavalry.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Go back to the cave and get the machine gun and my binoculars. We've got to cover the path below. You give him a hand. You too, Anselmo. Hey, go back to that soldier and see if you can find more clips for this gun. And leave his pockets alone!


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] What passes below? Does St. Pablo know that the bridge is gone?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I figured that. Don't you think it would be an opportunity working with me?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I'm a long, long way from San Francisco. The tease and rag, the total oh. I've been a lucky girl since San Francisco. But that seems a thousand songs ago.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Betcha Mr. Ziegfeld had a smile. He did. Better hurry with my costume, cause Blossom has to sing the next song in a different style. And you've got every other singer beached by a lot.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Where do you think I'm going when the cold, cold breezes blow? I said stop. Where do you think I'm going when the winds are blowing cold? Not east, not west.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Come on and give your lady fair just a little smile. I say stop. You bet your life you're gonna linger there just a little while. Oh ho, we got the ladies right here on earth.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Operator, is that number still busy? We'll keep trying.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Alright, you'll be fine. Goodbye.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] There was no you struggling. When I found I couldn't resist him. I've got the world to command. Fettin' it, bouncin' it right in my hand. Oh, I love him, love him.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Good morning, darling. Isn't it a beautiful day? Rebecca of Sunnybrook Farm. Well, I feel wonderful if that's what you mean. What's new with the Rover boy? He's still asleep. We were out most of the night talking.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Oh, would you call Sam Doyle and tell him I'm ready to go back to work? You better. Got another mouth to feed.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] All right. My closing chorus. You know, in show business, you better quit when you can't top yourself. And I can't because now I've got the billing I've always really wanted. Mrs. Benny Fields.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Well, Jack, I really don't know how to say this, but I'd rather you didn't.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Any fresh bread? Only what you see, Sergeant. All I'm allowed to bake now. Thanks.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I haven't seen you before. You must be a stranger here. Let me see your papers.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] How in this? Maybe you can go back and just quickly recap what we discussed. Okay. So basically the whole point and we started with is that there are people who have constant anxiety because they are defined by their work and because there is all the truthless competition


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The idea of meritocracy without considering any role for fate and then constant anxiety.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So when we are having the discussions, uh, the question, so are we,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I am going to offer alternative to consumerism at a


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] At a global level or is it more like we are encouraging our readers to, our viewers to recognize that these are all the consequences that come up and therefore they can withdraw themselves at an individual level as much as possible from the consumerist mania.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Good point, yeah. So, then if we go back to the three point we mentioned it. So, if the consumeristic culture


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Meritocracy, we understand that our endeavours matter, but there are things beyond our endeavours also which matter.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So that is where I get a philosophical understanding of previous life and karma and destiny which can help us over there. And then with respect to anxiety,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Again, if, uh, if we are too at, if we define our, define worldly things only as the sources of all pleasure, or even of our very basis of existence, then


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Japan has the highest work-related suicides in the world. I'm not mistaken, yeaah.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That's quite a dramatic way of demonstrating one's life goal.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I think this I have seen especially in, uh, my friends who work in the field of software. They earn a lot, but then they have to learn a lot also.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Because things keep changing, the skills keep changing and uh, it's very competitive. And we talk about consumerism, you mentioned Japan.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] If you consider the first world countries, Singapore is also a first world country. Australia is also a first world country. Of course, America is considered the leader of the first world country. Are we having mental health problems in all the first world countries in general or is it that in some countries it is more than others?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] That's a, that's an important point because even from a, we could say a sattvic psychological perspective, different people have different love languages and giving and receiving gifts is just one of them. Spending quality time could be another one or


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] With love being extrinsic there can be two aspects to it. The way I express love for others


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I also feel that I will be able to attract love from others when I have something extrinsic with me. And this actually corrodes all relationships.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] When we usually talk about love, it's associated with a romantic relationship.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But even with, we can come to romantic later, but even in a parent-child relationship, often


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Children feel that, uh, it is, if I perform well in my academics, then I will get my parents love. Otherwise my parents won't love me. So in that sense, right from their childhood, they start believing that they don't have an, they don't have any intrinsic, intrinsic, uh,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Rather they have to acquire something extrinsic by which they will earn, they will become love worthy.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] This performance relay or allow related with performance.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Developing countries, for example, I have seen about in India and even in China, I saw a parenting book called Tiger Mom.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] The parents don't have that many expectations from their children, but then it's almost like a hands off attitude. Now maybe I don't know how to parent, I don't know how to deal with children. So then you do what you want with your life. And that is also another way of feeling of not getting love.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] One would be that in love I have too many expectations from you and other is in love I have no expectations from you at all. It's just your life, do whatever you want. Both could lead to a...


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Both could lead to a psychological harm for the child.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] In some ways, this could also be related with culture that, you know, what we might call as the public display of affection and what say in maybe a little more traditional cultures that might be disapproved, but that might be just a normal way of expressing affection.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I would say that the way in which affection is expressed, uh, that may vary from culture to culture, but the principle is that


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Whether the affection expressed is, is authentically connecting the two people or is it


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] So you give charity so that you can have a good image in society. How good I am. So in some ways, is it, you could say PR love. I want to show the world that I have such a happy family, I have such a happy relationship. And, uh, in that sense,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] If the connection is not really with the two people.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] I read this study, there's a book called, uh,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Sigmund Freud had the idea that this is like a


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Today's world we might want to use the word spiritual, but basically they have some committed spiritual practice.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] They have better relationships, they have better mental health, they recover faster from diseases.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] On the other hand, those who reject all kinds of spirituality and think into sensuality,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] In American history and now it is coming to the world of India also.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] There was what was called the free sex revolution or they call it the sexual revolution. So it basically started with Sigmund Freud in some ways. He had the idea that all of us have, uh,


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[Assistant] Have repressed sexual urges. It's quite a perverted idea. So he felt that every boy has a, has a,


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[Assistant] Urge for his sexual urge for his mother. Every girl has sexual urge for her father. And because society disapproves it.


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[Assistant] So it leads to various pathologies of the children as people grow up.


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[Assistant] His ideas were, as they spread to the mainstream culture, the idea was that


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[Assistant] And we just have free expression of sexuality, then there'll be no inhibition on love.


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[Assistant] But the result has actually been that people are more lonely than ever before. It is, because it's the connection between people.


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[Assistant] You know, a man treats a woman like a sex machine and a woman treats a man like a ATM machine. Of course, now I heard about it, but now it's like gender roles are also changing. Sometimes there are women who may treat man like a sex machine and a man who may treat a woman like a source of money. But whichever way it is, it is all so obsessed with externals.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Now once we start going to the external direction, it's the looks of the body or the money that you have to enjoy the level of the body. This is all very external to who we are.


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[Assistant] And beyond that there is a mind, and yes, people may have their own repressions, they may have their psychological wounds, but beyond it all, there is the spiritual spark, that the soul who is the essence of who we are.


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[Assistant] Where one just looks beyond, uh, one sees beyond the looks and uh, other than the externals, no relationship can endure.


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[Assistant] And thus there is a constant insecurity about how


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[Assistant] First of all, we look at ourselves spiritually and we try to connect with each other spiritually. I often talk about say horizontal relationships and vertical relationships. If we have a vertical relationship with Krishna,


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[Assistant] Study then that itself gives us some amount of security.


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[Assistant] To some extent our emotional needs are satisfied by our relationship with Krishna and then if we have to turn toward other relationships and seek something over there that is not so disruptive or overwhelming because


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[Assistant] We don't become desperately needy for those relationships. We can move toward the relationship with a, with some level of maturity or we can move into a relationship with the desperation and then when it's the second, then it's almost like


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[Assistant] Go from 1 to 2 to 3, Allah. It could be a big subject of relationships.


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[Assistant] And then we are intrinsically parts of Krishna.


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[Assistant] We have an intrinsic capacity to love Krishna. So it's like a fertile soil. The field will automatically grow over there. So in that sense, loving Krishna is not something extrinsic to us.


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[Assistant] It is the natural energy of the soul which is simply to be activated.


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[Assistant] I am also the slave who is providing for the enjoyment of others.


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[Assistant] I'm also the, I'm also the producer who has to often


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[Assistant] Without any relaxation, I have to produce tirelessly.


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[Assistant] So this idea of reducing a human being to a producing consuming unit. This is actually quite dehumanizing.


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[Assistant] Or now we could have say more of digital sensations also and with this idea


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[Assistant] People on one side they think that the more products I have, the more things I buy, the more successful I am. But whether that success leads me to happiness, that's something to open to question.


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[Assistant] And we have a phenomenon which is more widespread than alcoholism although its effects are not


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[Assistant] The more we expect, the more we eat food which is heavily spiced, then if you get a natural vegetable or natural fruit, it appears tasteless. Or if you are habituated to hearing noisy music,


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[Assistant] Then maybe gentle classical music in this doesn't feel sufficiently exciting.


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[Assistant] The consumerist ethos, if I can use the word ethos for it, the consumerist culture, not only does it make the pleasures that we chase after superficial,


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[Assistant] But those pleasures which are deeper, we also become somewhat desensitized to them. And that, that is the catch-22. We crave for something where it is not there, and where it is there, we become desensitized to getting that. Krishna says, bhogaishvara pasaktaanam, paya apahartha chetasam, yavasayatmika buddhi samadhau na vidiyate. We just cannot have the steadiness to experience subtler joys.


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[Assistant] If we are too caught in equating pleasure with gross sensations.


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[Assistant] You know freedom is never taken away as effectively as by giving the illusion of freedom.


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[Assistant] Yeaah. I think when India got independence, it was a story.


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[Assistant] It may be true, it may be somewhat apocryphal, apocryphal that some British leader asked Gandhi leji that, you know, will India be following the British model of development? He replied that for one small Britain to develop


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[Assistant] It required, it required resources from the whole earth. If India is to follow that model, it will require several earths. So, we don't have that, so we will have to, we will follow our own model of development. Unfortunately, whether we did that or not is open to question.


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[Assistant] So now this one thought I had about this consumer is the king that this idea


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[Assistant] If I am the king, then I have to have the status symbols of a king.


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[Assistant] And while every society had its own trappings of success, so for example a duke in


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[Assistant] You have no future, it's, it's almost like that. So there is this, uh, say a car, there's an ad which says that you are your car.


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[Assistant] So, it's not only your body, but you are your car. Your status, your position in society is different by your car.


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[Assistant] It is, we have the concept in the Bhavika of Ahankar.


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[Assistant] So if this extrinsic identification grows to a large extent where by the consumer looking idea, we have to


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[Assistant] I think it was Oscar Wilde who said that fashion is a form of ugliness, so intolerable that we have to change it every 6 months.


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[Assistant] So 3 yesterday and we had 4 today. So I think we are able to complete both also. Let's see.


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[Assistant] There are movies and stuff, stuff like that was entertainment always. But now politics has to be entertaining.


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[Assistant] And he says that, now some religious people are happy that our religious stuff, you know, our religion is on TV.


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[Assistant] And as the most successful speakers or most popular speakers become those who are


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[Assistant] Not necessarily the most spiritually minded people or the most erudite people but those who are the best performers. So the media has to some extent permeated all walks of life and in the past


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[Assistant] The, if, if there's a politician who wanted to be elected to the US president or one of the most important, one of the most important assistance of the, uh, politician would be the speech writer. But now it is the media manager. And often the media manager has to be an expert spin doctor. Where you take any event and spin it in such a way that the, it gives a positive impression of the person. So the media doesn't just report news, it creates news.


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[Assistant] Beautiful, yeaah. It, it's so amazing how the news can be positioned. Something which is, in writing I learned is that if you want to give the same news a positive tilt or negative tilt. Say XYZ had problems, but he's stable now.


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[Assistant] The medium as you said the medium affects the message in so much a way that almost the message has to recast itself.


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[Assistant] And both can fill people with, with agitation. And the media basically does both of them. In some ways advertising involves creating fear and creating desire.


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[Assistant] But now it's not so much how good the product is, but how good the product will make you feel.


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[Assistant] So on one side, the news and the commercials.


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[Assistant] And then we, from the agitation you try to, so from the news, in the agitation in the news, we get some relief maybe by watching the movies.


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[Assistant] And while watching the movies, we see people who are very smart, very good looking, very wealthy.


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[Assistant] This completely gets sucked in and it's very difficult to actually protect oneself.


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[Assistant] And then, I was, I asked the editor, and I wrote two, three articles, we got to know each other a little bit. Because Times of India was the first newspaper in India which started a spiritual column. It's called Speaking Press. I asked the editor, how did you start this? What inspired you to start this? So, she replied and said that,


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[Assistant] So we wanted at least one corner in our paper which will calm people's mind. So that's why we have this spiritual column.


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[Assistant] It's not so much for spiritual wisdom per se, but it is more for soothing wisdom, which can calm people's mind down.


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[Assistant] Actually this could be a big subject, but I think we have covered most of it. Any other thoughts on this?


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[Assistant] So then, that brings us to the last part of spare time.


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[Assistant] It's interesting that, I think it was J. Maynard Smith or someone who said at the start of the 20th century that as machines start doing more and more of the work which humans are doing,


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[Assistant] They will start washing vessels, washing clothes.


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[Assistant] The no time disease is a, is a big big problem.


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[Assistant] Not because we're not saying people shouldn't be busy.


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[Assistant] It's like we are so busy climbing up a ladder that we don't even have time to think whether that ladder is resting on the right wall or not.


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[Assistant] You have the three P's, but you have lost the four reps.


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[Assistant] Which actually make us feel connected, feel satisfied, feel harmonized with who we are.


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[Assistant] So we, at one level, because of the sheer pressure of the work, we don't have much spare time and even if we have that spare time,


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[Assistant] We don't, uh, use that spare time in a way that will actually nourish us. Use it in a way that is so much, uh, more of a...


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[Assistant] Social, social cosmetic. And that's why we just feel stressed out.


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[Assistant] Then we can see for ourselves what are the things that are important for us.


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[Assistant] And then we can decide that other things are not that important for me.


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[Assistant] I read a fascinating way in which the idea that we have multiple lives can help us streamline


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[Assistant] This is funny when I read it, he said that, this author says that, that the world has so much to experience.


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[Assistant] So you just postpone some of the things to a future lifetime. And that way, uh, to prioritize if we understand that


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[Assistant] And perhaps entertainment is one example of this that you have to spend millions of dollars on making movies. Entertainment is fine as far as it goes, but if you are spending this much money on entertainment,


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[Assistant] That indicates that our priorities have become so queued and we think that different ways


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[Assistant] What we will, what will actually fulfill us, we are not at all clear about that. So, I'll summarize or would you like to summarize? No, let me summarize.


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[Assistant] So we discussed about the rainbow of the dark or deceptive rainbow of consumerism and today we started with talking about how people are defined by their work and then we discussed three things last time and we continued on today.


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[Assistant] It is when I have to express my love to others, it is truth to you.


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[Assistant] And that's how festivals are created and commercialized like say Mother's Day or Valentine's Day or whatever else.


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[Assistant] Also, I feel that I have to acquire something external by which I can have some love.


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[Assistant] And whether it is between the romantic relationship or the parent-child relationship.


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[Assistant] This creates a tremendous amount of existential insecurity if I think that I'm not intrinsically lovable.


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[Assistant] Somewhat related theme of how women defend their work related suicides and people


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[Assistant] In trying to get the objects of prestige, they become burdened by those.


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[Assistant] Because the media constantly keeps portraying and glamorizing things. The media if you consider that as news.


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[Assistant] Which are all, which are most predominantly about provocative things. This going wrong there, that going wrong there. Deceit, death and destruction. And then, to get relief from that, we watch entertainment. But the entertainment is largely centered on people who are wealthy and attractive.


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[Assistant] And then that makes us want to look at the commercials and buy the things which we feel will fill the emptiness in our hearts.


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[Assistant] Once we are caught in these three things that we have to


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[Assistant] Get love through externals, we have to consume things and we seek, believe the media, then we get so caught in external that we have no spare time at all.


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[Assistant] And even if we have spare time that is used not so much to nourish our souls as to enhance our social image.


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[Assistant] By going to expensive, prestigious places for our so-called holidays or breaks. And for all this, if we ground ourselves in our spiritual identity, then it'll, then we will have, as I say, we'll have a head straight. We'll know what our priorities are. And then we can choose what to focus on and what to let go.


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[Assistant] And that way we, we, although consumerism may be there all around us, but we won't be consumed by consumerism.


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[Assistant] Rather we can carefully choose how much we want to be involved in it. Any other points I left out?


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[Assistant] You tremble and become flushed whenever Miss Oliver enters the schoolroom. Again the surprised expression crossed his face.


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[Assistant] He had not imagined that a woman would dare to speak so to a man. For me I felt at home in this sort of discourse.


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[Assistant] I could never rest in communication with strong, discreet and refined minds, whether male or female, till I had passed the outworks of conventional reserve, and crossed the threshold of confidence, and won a place by their heart's very hearthstone.


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[Assistant] You are original, said he, and not timid. There is something brave in your spirit, as well as penetrating in your eye. But allow me to assure you that you partially misinterpret my emotions. You think them more profound and potent than they are.


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[Assistant] You give me a larger allowance of sympathy than I have a just claim to. When I color and when I shake before Miss Oliver, I do not pity myself. I scorn the weakness.


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[Assistant] I know it is ignoble, a mere fever of the flesh, not, I declare, the convulsion of the soul.


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[Assistant] Stripped of that blood bleached robe with which Christianity covers human deformity, a cold, hard, ambitious man.


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[Assistant] Natural affection only of all the sentiments has permanent power over me. Reason and not feeling is my guide. My ambition is unlimited.


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[Assistant] My desire to rise higher, to do more than others insatiable.


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[Assistant] I honor endurance, perseverance, industry, talent.


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[Assistant] Because these are the means by which men achieve great ends and mount to lofty eminence.


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[Assistant] I watch your career with interest, because I consider you a specimen of a diligent, orderly, energetic woman, not because I deeply compassionate what you have gone through or what you still suffer. You would describe yourself as a mere pagan philosopher, I said. No, there is this difference between me and deistic philosophers. I believe, and I believe the Gospel. You missed your epithet. I am not a pagan, but a Christian philosopher.


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[Assistant] As his disciple, I adopt his pure, his merciful, his benignant doctrines. I advocate them. I am sworn to spread them. One in youth to religion, she has cultivated my original qualities thus. From the minute germ, natural affection, she has developed the overshadowing tree philanthropy. From the wild stringy root of human uprightness, she has reared a due sense of the divine justice.


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[Assistant] Of the ambition to win power and renown for my wretched self, she has formed the ambition to spread my master's kingdom, to achieve victories for the standard of the cross. So much has religion done for me, turning the original materials to the best account, pruning and training nature. But she could not eradicate nature, nor will it be eradicated till this mortal shall put on immortality.


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[Assistant] Having said this, he took his hat which lay on the table beside my pallet. Once more, he looked at the portrait. She is lovely, he murmured. She is well named, the Rose of the World, indeed.


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[Assistant] He drew over the picture the sheet of thin paper on which I was accustomed to rest my hand in painting, to prevent the cardboard from being solid. What he suddenly saw on this blank paper, it was impossible for me to tell, but something had caught his eye.


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[Assistant] He took it up with a snatch. He looked at the edge, then shot a glance at me, inexpressibly peculiar and quite incomprehensible.


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[Assistant] A glance that seemed to take and make a note of every point in my shape, faith, and dress, for it traversed all quick, keen as lightning. His lips parted as if to speak, but he checked the coming sentence, whatever it was. What is the matter? I asked. Nothing in the world, was the reply, and replacing the paper, I saw him dexterously tear a narrow slip from the margin. It disappeared in his gloves.


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[Assistant] And with one hasty nod and good afternoon, he vanished.


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[Assistant] Well, I exclaimed, using an expression of the district, that caps the globe, however.


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[Assistant] But saw nothing on it save a few dingy stains of paint where I had tried the tint in my pencil. I pondered the mystery a minute or two, but finding it insolvable and being certain it could not be of much moment, I dismissed and soon forgot it.


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[Assistant] The nature models for us, what we can do in relationship and spiritually too of like, it is right and appropriate for me to wear a coat today. Now in July it's not. And so I need to pay attention to the season because it tells me how to dress and what to do.


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[Assistant] Yes, I can't wait. I'm so excited. Hometown of Atlanta. So that's really fun to get to be there with all my people and then in Denver as well.


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[Assistant] Then you will get what you want. But what is actually true is when you are hungry, you don't have to pretend to not be hungry to get full. You have to go eat.


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[Assistant] And so there, we've got to start figuring out a way to make vision boards that help us dream and pursue and go after what we want. But hold them both. It felt, I felt like growing up in church, I was taught I wasn't allowed to have wants and


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[Assistant] That's the thing is hold, how can you hold, I have more than I deserve and there are things I want I do not have. Both of those are always true and we get to help our friends in our real lives and they're listening, our friends figure out what it looks like to hold both of those.


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[Assistant] I mean, I think, I totally think you can say, this is not the life I want.


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[Assistant] And the question is, are you sitting at home and saying that to yourself or saying that to


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[Assistant] In fact, we talked about it at lunch, Erin, this idea of like, it is a miracle when a man and a woman end up at the same place at the same time in fall in love. It's a miracle.


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[Assistant] But I'm probably not going to fall in love with someone if I don't leave my house. Unless it's, unless it's the mailman because he's the only one who shows up every day. Right? So, so yes, I think you can be not satisfied with your situation, but then my follow up question is always, so what are you going to do?


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[Assistant] What's your next move? You don't have to like be on dating apps unless you want to be and I think they're great but, and you don't have to go out every single night, but are you anywhere where you're meeting people that might either be able to set you up or might be someone you can meet yourself?


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[Assistant] Trusting that God knows what we don't know. And He protects us from relationships in work and in personal life.


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[Assistant] What I can know is God's promise for me is Psalm 37-4, that He will give me the desires of my heart. He has not promised me a husband and children.


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[Assistant] Those are desires of mine and, but, but that's not the promise. The promise is He'll give me what my heart will desire. And so I have to check in and listen to and be like, well, actually what am I desiring? I'm desiring to do what God has for my life. Oh, that may be different.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You don't totally know the intentions unless he says, or one of you says, Hey, let's go on a date. Let's do it. But on the apps, everybody knows why you're there. You're there cause you want to meet someone. Now some of them are better than others, but, but you can know the intention from the get go. Sure. You're going to end up being friends, but the reason you're there and the reason I'm there is we're looking for a relationship.


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[Assistant] And so there are things I can do right now that I will not be able to do when I'm married with kids.


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[Assistant] And so part of it is listing, I mean, I actually keep a list of things I get to do.


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[Assistant] Right now that I will not get to do when I'm married with kids. There are things that I will lose. If you, uh, not you, I won't speak about any of you guys. I probably have often thought when I get married, then I get everything. I never think about what you lose. And as I have grown in myself and in my faith,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] It has felt like the Lord's been like, Hey, remember once you're married, travel changes.


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[Assistant] Hey, once you're married, how you spend your money changes. Once you're married, even your relationship with God shifts.


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[Assistant] Because I remember so clearly one time y'all, I was seeing somebody and I was getting ready in the morning and in my house and he was not there and I was blow drying my hair and I felt the Lord say, if this is the right guy, you and I change forever.


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[Assistant] Wow. And it would just get, it would just, it stopped me in my tracks. And I thought, what do I want to say to God today when it is just me and him? Now, spoiler alert, I didn't marry that guy.


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[Assistant] So contentment's a weird word for me, but what is very true is I am eyes wide open to the gifts of this season of my life that I will trade for different gifts when I'm married with kids.


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[Assistant] Trade's a great word. So I lose things and I gain things. And I am so thankful for what I have right now that is unique to this season of my life.


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[Assistant] I have this family that every Christmas it's a husband and wife and three kids.


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[Assistant] Every Christmas, the three daughters and I watch a Christmas movie their last day of school, like that night. And we've done it eight years now. And we wear footy pajamas and we eat dinner and we watch a Christmas and a Christmas movie. And two years ago?


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[Assistant] The middle daughter, we finished watching the movie, we're all piled on the couch, we like take the same picture every year, you know how it goes. And the middle daughter's like, uh, like relaxed and she's like, ah, I hope you never get married. And I was like,


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[Assistant] And it gave me this moment of going like, oh yeah, I get to be in kids lives. I'm going to cry saying this to y'all. I get to be in my, I didn't know when my best friends had kids that they were giving me new best friends. I had no idea. And, but they have, and my calendar allows me


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[Assistant] There are gifts in this season that will not always be gifts for me.


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[Assistant] And so I will eat those up while I have them and then I will trade them in for the next thing God has for me.


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[Assistant] Would I be able to do this job? Would I be doing the thing God has made me to do if I'd have been married 20 years ago? The answer is no.


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[Assistant] It doesn't mean one's right or wrong, it meant for my story that, that he just knows.


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[Assistant] He is better than good to me. And so I, I am aware that he knows what I don't know. In fact, my prayer life has changed, particularly when it comes to dating, where instead of going, I mean, I say what I want Jay, like I say the desires of my heart, like this guy, I would like for this guy to work. But also,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] If, if there are two gardens here and one of them is that this is the right guy and one of them is that he isn't, I'm going to pray that you'll grow the right one.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Grow the right garden and let me see fruit in the right garden. Because I know you know what I don't know. So I'll tell you my desires, but I'm gonna pray both gardens and let you grow the one and show me the fruit from the one that I, and then I go like,


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[Assistant] Settling is such a funny thing too, right? Cause let's go back to our teenage growing ups of don't settle for the wrong guy, don't settle for the wrong guy.


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[Assistant] I think the, where we have to handle that really carefully is what really matters. Well, his faith really matters.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, because who do you want to be parenting children with if you're gonna have children? So his faith really matters. To me, there's other things that matter. His job matters. There is one. You know, like, it matters that he has a job.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But, but then you meet someone who is a different, uhm, comes from a different background as you, or a different race, or has grown up differently than you, or for me, is a Florida Gator. I can't. That feels like settling, right?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And then, then you also need that community in your life going like, hey, it's not settling if he's different than you thought you were expecting. Settling is, we need to use that word on the things that cannot change. For faith people.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] And he had been a non-Christian who married a Christian and they had divorced and he said,


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Oh, it isn't settling if my friend picks someone from a different church. Or a Florida Gator, as my problem with you. As a Georgia Bulldog, that's hard for me.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, cause I think it was, historically. I think there was. Culturally, that was. Culturally, that's true. And also, you know, a hundred years ago, women couldn't financially, economically exist.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] You would think so, but we love watching The Marvelous Miss Maisel on Amazon and we love watching The Crown and all these shows from the 50s that show a simpler time that makes it feel like...


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[Assistant] Uh, marriage is the option when you're 18, the only option. And if once you're out of your parents' house, then you better be married. So it does feel like, and I would say that the church does a little, historically, I feel like we're way better than we have been.


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[Assistant] But I think the church historically kind of gives the feeling of, hey, while you're, when you're 17 and you're in high school, we need to talk to you about getting married because that's going to be the next thing you do.


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[Assistant] And then you go like, oh gosh, it's not the next thing. Oh gosh, I went to college and oh gosh, I didn't meet him and oh gosh, and it's 30 and uh, you know, like, and so I do think, I think culturally, in faith and just in the world, historically it's been, it has been,


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[Assistant] Was delayed. Uhm, it's different now, I think.


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[Assistant] Probably not at this point, not as much. Genuinely, it kinda, it's a weird, it's almost like a hourglass shape. When you're in your 20s, it, it feels like, oh yeaah, you're fine, you're fine, live your life, go travel, da da da da. And then you get like 28 and people are like, hey, is everything alright?


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[Assistant] You're fine. We were worried, but now we aren't. Like, it's like I come back out of the hourglass a little bit has been my experience. I'm not sure if that's everyone's experience. But I also moved to a bigger city than where I grew up.


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[Assistant] In my, for my thirties. And, and so the dating age and the marriage age changed. My peers that were in our late thirties, my peers have preschoolers. My peers in my hometown have middle schoolers.


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[Assistant] And it's just a difference of, of what the city


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[Assistant] If you think about the weather, it's winter right now when we're recording this. If I'd have shown up in t-shirt and shorts and just been like,


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[Assistant] And so, and so for our friends who are stay at home moms right now, pay attention to your season. Wear what you should wear. You can wear sweatpants every day!


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[Assistant] You know Jumber, coolest podcast in the world. And today we got Young L on the podcast. And I'm very excited about this because I also brought along my buddy Lil Housephone, who grew up in the jerking area. He was like a 13 year old when the pack started coming out and everything. He was probably rocking Pink Dolphin at that time too, so. Not yet. Not yet. That came later.


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[Assistant] All right, but we're going to find out today how all this happens. So let's, okay, first off, where are you from? I'm from Willard Park, Berkeley, California.


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[Assistant] Okay, and so talk to us about your early days getting into music and how all that led into you being one of the founding members of the pack.


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[Assistant] Yea man, that was some real like cult tribal rivalries at that time though. Yea, yea. I remember well.


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[Assistant] Were you guys already sort of like on the wavelength that the pack would then become known for, like the vans, the skateboarding, the sort of like weirder, outsider style, like which was, it's hard for people to even remember that rap was very different at that time.


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[Assistant] That are crazy there, so a lot of times when you hear music from the Bay, does somebody, if you only ever listen to New York hip hop or LA shit, and you hear some shit from the Bay, you'd be like, what the fuck, they're on a totally different wavelength.


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[Assistant] So that was what really brought you guys all together was the actual music. What was, what were the early days of you guys making music together like?


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[Assistant] What year are we talking? Cause it's like pre internet, but it's also sort of like early internet where it's like your songs were on MySpace, but it's not like people were only consuming music online like they are now.


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[Assistant] Okay, well so, how long did you guys have to be making music together before that became a thing?


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[Assistant] Yeah, 2007 or something like that. So how hot were you guys off those first original three mixtapes by the time you guys signed? Were you guys actually popping or was it more like they saw the potential?


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[Assistant] So, so you decide to sign with Too Short and then this, this is before Vans is out.


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[Assistant] People would have been definitely like, oh, they got paid to do that. It's actually the fact that it's so in your face about telling you how great vans are that it's almost you have to believe that


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[Assistant] Yeah, you just stuck with it? Was that like the vision?


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[Assistant] Hey, this is kind of a little bit of a throwback to the earlier conversation, but when you first met B, was there, now when you look at it, were there signs that he was going to be sort of like the level of influence that he has been? You could tell early on.


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[Assistant] Innovative and, and on the cutting edge of like what young people were wearing at that time. Were you like consciously wearing weird different shit? Because that was a big part of what the pack became known for. I mean obviously the Vans thing is a big part of it, but just in general too.


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[Assistant] It's intense. It's like, there's something special about going into somebody's house and beating them up in the house.


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[Assistant] Sounds pretty serious, you don't want to talk about it? Uhm, alright, so, but that era, you know, it really stands out to me that I think hip-hop in general was just primed and ready for something


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[Assistant] Different and weird and new because I think you guys were really kind of like a


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[Assistant] Cause you were still coming off the G-Unit Dip Set era in which everybody was a superhero. And you were starting to have, you know, Kid Cudi and dudes who were changing things a little bit, but for young people in particular, I feel like you guys really were indicative of a big change in hip hop as a whole, I guess you could say.


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[Assistant] Choppa said in a new song, he said, I ain't been the same since I heard my first safe. And I was like, damn, I wish I had a safe so I could relate to that a little bit better.


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[Assistant] That's the same reason when you watch videos now motherfuckers got the chance that is Louis belt fucking blurt out


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[Assistant] You could argue that all Lil B songs are emo songs. You can.


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[Assistant] He took off running, like he went and got signed by SODMG. Was that when it was the first sign? Like, oh, okay, this is the dynamics changing.


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[Assistant] Damn, that's crazy. I've always heard that name and I don't know who the fuck it was either.


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[Assistant] He could probably afford to give you a shirt now. He probably could have afforded it then too.


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[Assistant] I seen him stage-drive with fucking steel-toed boots on one time and fucking cut some kid's head open and the kid's starting to sue the venue like immediately.


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[Assistant] Yo, free black youngster. You hear about that shit? That shit's crazy.


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[Assistant] According to the cops, he did the shooting in a van that he rented. Under his own name. That's what the cops are saying.


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[Assistant] That's real. That really happened too. Yeaah. Motherfuckers are crazy. This is DNA.


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[Assistant] Pink Dolphin sorta changed because a lot of people think you don't have anything to do with it anymore, but you were talking earlier about how you still


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[Assistant] So did it just get so big at a certain point and there's a lot of different people who own parts of it and then at a certain point it just kinda didn't make sense for you to?


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[Assistant] I think he hates me because I'm too down with FTP and we made fun of him on the podcast or something.


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[Assistant] I mean, most rappers have clothing lines now, or at least sell a lot of clothing.


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[Assistant] I had MySpace, but you were popping when you had MySpace, so that must have been nice. I wasn't popping when I had MySpace, I was a regular old loser.


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[Assistant] What about the girls? Are you guys heavy on MySpace? Having crews come through every night?


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[Assistant] And he's about to get uh, he's about to get trimmed up and cleaned tomorrow.


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[Assistant] I don't want to actually act like this is a thing that I would actually do because, no, it's just a funny idea.


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[Assistant] But don't you think they should have access to dating apps as well? Maybe not dating, but like play dates.


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[Assistant] Bro, have you ever snorted in a pigsty seat? I did when I was 7th grade, when I was at fucking, uh, Sunday school.


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[Assistant] The other day I almost tweeted, I'm addicted to mid and press Zans.


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[Assistant] That's good. What, for this interview? Yea, for the serve. I gotta get off the serve so I can be coherent in the interview.


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[Assistant] That's the, that's the way. That's the LA lifestyle. Meet somebody rich and just go and live off them. That's how I met you.


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[Assistant] I think it's got fucked up that we didn't mention the cool kids the whole time. Cool kids go crazy. And that was very much that era and they had a similar shit where they like kinda changed the way a lot of motherfuckers were dressed and they were right ahead of that shit too.


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[Assistant] Could you see yourselves, is there still that chemistry where you could see yourselves actually making like a significant amount of music as a group again?


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[Assistant] You've been like, knowing each other since you were so young that I'm sure there's a lot of like ego type stuff involved and everything, but like, you know, I feel like, yeah, that it would be a travesty if you did it without there being that, that energy, because if you're not getting along, it's going to sound fake. It's going to sound silly.


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[Assistant] It's crazy to think that when we're 60, all the shit will seem like funny little tiny details that we can probably barely remember the details of, you know?


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[Assistant] That's a pretty dope cosign right there. I like that.


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[Assistant] Scotty, what's your Instagram? Sorry, I gotta go find it later. Uh, Scott from Berklee.


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[Assistant] I remember first seeing the words Bayscott and being like, this motherfucker's really bragging about being a crackhead.


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[Assistant] You were on them before you knew about being a bass head, which is what you are now.


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[Assistant] I am an actress! If I'm not an actress, what am I? Don't answer that!


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[Assistant] I figured you'd head straight for here. You took an awful chance, Mario.


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[Assistant] I'm Joe Bland, Ms. Reed. My partner wanted me to meet you. But we have to leave for Washington tonight.


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[Assistant] And I still don't see how my partner ever got out of it alive.


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[Assistant] The other post is on this side, in that old sawmill.


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[Assistant] Roberto, that sentry, he looks like a man from my village.


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[Assistant] If a gypsy catches rabbits, he says it's foxes. If he catches a fox, he would call it an elephant. And if I catch an elephant, you would say it was a tank? I'll get me a tank, old man.


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[Assistant] Someday I'll get me a tank and you can call it what you please. Gypsies talk much, kill little. I'm going for wine. Bring a cup for me.


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[Assistant] The best. How do they call you?


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[Assistant] You found her hiding in the rock where she had run from the drape. You should have seen her when we brought her here. No hair at all. Cried all the time, and if anyone touched her, she'd shiver like a window. Man, but she was ugly.


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[Assistant] This is a very strange woman, Roberta. Is of no one! But she cooks well.


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[Assistant] Pablo was brave in the beginning. No, he killed more people than the cholera.


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[Assistant] Yes, at the start of the movement, he killed more people than the bubonic plague.


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[Assistant] Gipsy's afraid of her. Why not? She has a strong hatred for me. Why? She treats me as a time waster. She doesn't like gypsies. What an injustice. She has gypsy blood herself. She knows what she speaks. But she has a tongue that bites.


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[Assistant] I was telling this comrade what a kind woman you are, killer. Liar! This one comes as a dynamite.


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[Assistant] Yes. To steal, yes. To murder, yes. To fight for the Republic.


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[Assistant] He's gone to the horses. Now you have to kill him. Why don't you kill him before he kills you?


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[Assistant] What about your bridge then? Ah, you don't know Pablo.


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[Assistant] Now men, you have tightened your garters.


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[Assistant] Such a word should be able to read and try. Yeaah, don't fool with it. Can you tell time? Why not? Twelve o'clock day, hunger. Six o'clock night, drunk.


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[Assistant] Six hour interval. I stay till they change the watch at noon and at six. It was a long watch English and cold. My bones breathe.


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[Assistant] Remember what you said, to be careful. See?


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[Assistant] Do you like to see him? I'd like to very much.


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[Assistant] You got more than ten words. Night letter, get there first thing in the morning. He drives fast.


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[Assistant] You could, uh, cut out this last love because you said it already three times.


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[Assistant] Don't make it a statement. I love it. Respect it. You also made a statement with your new debut EP, uh, Don't Smile at Me. Why'd you call it that?


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[Assistant] We've uh, we've heard reports that you are like dying to meet Tyler the Creator.


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[Assistant] Why, why is that? Like just how badly do you want to meet her?


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[Assistant] There might be some confusion and I will explain it. So the medial pectoral will give the medial part of the muscle the sternocostal.


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[Assistant] Ranch house about a half mile up the road. Thanks, partner.


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[Assistant] You weren't there when we phoned right after Belding was killed. No, I, uh, I had to go to Reno at six for a truckload of feed.


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[Assistant] I'm sure you cannot long be content to pass your leisure in solitude.


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[Assistant] My faculties, heaven-bestowed, paralysed, made useless. You hear now how I contradict myself, I who preached contentment with a humble lot and


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[Assistant] Justified the vocation even of hewers of wood and drawers of water in God's service.


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[Assistant] I, his ordained minister, almost rave in my restlessness.


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[Assistant] Well, propensities and principles must be reconciled by some means. He left the room.


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[Assistant] In this brief hour, I had learnt more of him than in the whole previous month. Yet still he puzzled me.


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[Assistant] Diana and Mary Rivers became more sad and silent as the day approached for leaving their brother in their home They both tried to appear as usual


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[Assistant] But the sorrow they had to struggle against was one that could not be entirely conquered or concealed. Diana intimated that this would be a different parting from any they had ever yet known. It would probably, as far as Sinjin was concerned, be a parting for years. It might be a parting for life.


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[Assistant] He will sacrifice all to his long-framed resolves, she said. Natural affection and feelings more potent still.


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[Assistant] Syngin looks quiet, Jane, but he hides a fever in his vitals.


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[Assistant] You would think him gentle, yet in some things he is inexorable as death.


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[Assistant] And the worst of it is, my conscience will hardly permit me to dissuade him from his severe decision. Certainly I cannot for a moment blame him for it. It is right, noble, Christian, yet it breaks my heart. And the tears gushed to her fine eyes. Mary bent her head low over her work.


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[Assistant] We are now without father. We shall soon be without home and brother, she murmured.


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[Assistant] Which seemed decreed by fate purposely to prove the truth of the adage that misfortunes never come singly.


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[Assistant] And to add to their distresses the vexing one of the slip between the cup and the lip. Syngin passed the window reading a letter. He entered. Our uncle John is dead, said he. Both the sisters seemed struck.


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[Assistant] Not shocked or appalled, the tidings appeared in their eyes rather momentous than afflicting. Dead, repeated Diana. Yes. She riveted a searching gaze on her brother's face. And what then? She demanded in a low voice. What then, Diana? He replied, maintaining a marble immobility of feature. What then? Why nothing. Read.


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[Assistant] All three looked at each other, and all three smiled, a dreary, pensive smile enough.


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[Assistant] Only it forces rather strongly on the mind the picture of what might have been, said Mr. Rivers, and contrasts it somewhat too vividly with what is. He folded the letter, locked it in his desk, and again went out.


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[Assistant] For some minutes no one spoke. Diana then turns to me.


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[Assistant] And think us hard-hearted beings not to be more moved at the death of so near a relation as an uncle, but we have never seen him or known him. He was my mother's brother. My father and he quarrelled long ago.


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[Assistant] It was by his advice that my father risked most of his property in the speculation that ruined him. Mutual recrimination passed between them. They parted in anger and were never reconciled. My uncle engaged afterwards in more prosperous undertakings.


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[Assistant] It appears he realized a fortune of twenty thousand pounds. He was never married.


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[Assistant] And had no near kindred but ourselves and one other person, not more closely related than we.


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[Assistant] My father always cherished the idea that he would atone for his error by leaving his possessions to us. That letter informs us that he has bequeathed every penny to the other relation, with the exception of thirty guineas.


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[Assistant] To be divided between Syngin, Diana and Mary Rivers for the purchase of three mourning rings.


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[Assistant] And yet a momentary damp is cast on the spirits by the receipt of such news.


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[Assistant] Mary and I would have esteemed ourselves rich with a thousand pounds each, and to St John such a sum would have been valuable for the good it would have enabled him to do. This explanation given, the subject was dropped.


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[Assistant] And no further reference made to it by either Mr. Rivers or his sisters. The next day I left Marsh End for Moreton. The day after, Diana and Mary quitted it. In a week, Mr. Rivers and Hannah repaired to the parsonage, and so the old grange was abandoned.


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[Assistant] No Jabber, coolest podcast in the world. And yeah, we were just talking like, I know this bitch and she basically gives hand jobs for a living and that's her whole livelihood. And she told me she's like, I'm about to buy a car off giving hand jobs.


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[Assistant] That's why I'm going to stop because I got my snapchat deleted because I was getting my dick sucked by two girls at once on snapchat. And I'm not trying to lose my instagram.


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[Assistant] But you're like, you're like a funny guy who can rose back with them, but you ain't like some dude that's like gonna get super offended and aggressive. Like a lot of these guys out there.


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[Assistant] A lot of dudes are so egotistical in the rap game that they couldn't listen to a fan roast them and be cool with it.


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[Assistant] It feels like he's been around forever. It feels like he's been around forever. He was a fucking child when he first popped off. Yea, that was like five years ago. Is that crazy? What was your life like before that? Let's hear our real depiction of a pre-fame, pre-success chop.


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[Assistant] Whatchu mean? You never tried weed? Yeah. You tried it a little bit? Yeah, hell yeah. And you just don't fuck with it? I don't fuck with it no more. When did you stop with that?


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[Assistant] About like two years ago. Okay. Yeah. Damn, I thought you never smoked for some reason. I know.


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[Assistant] You never tried any of the other good shit that Keith's never known for? Hell nah. You just knew it wasn't for you or what? Yea, it's just one for me. Like I ain't like that shit. I'm like hell nah, fuck it. So from around that time though, what was your like level of


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Or your style of work. You're making beats and this is when Keith is first coming out. Like, like, let's hear about the first project, the first time you guys worked together.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] At that time, how, like in comparison to where you're at now, how proficient in beat making were you at the time? Were you a total fucking beginner or did you have some skills at the time?


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[Assistant] Did you even like conceive of the possibility of the music going as far as it did or at that time? Because you know, it's not like there's that many like big superstars coming out of Chicago at that time. Had you even thought about the idea of a song going viral or going outside of your city?


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[Assistant] They came like to y'all hood? Yeah. Really? Yes. Cause they smell the fucking money. They say that.


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[Assistant] But you have a big advantage because you know a lot more about him than he knows about you.


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[Assistant] I think people sometimes think that you and Keef have beef because you guys would be roasting each other on Instagram and shit so bad. That'd be him doing that shit.


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[Assistant] That was the realest. It was a smack DVD that he was in where he said that he went to the doctor to get an AIDS test and the doctor told him that he was positive for swag.


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[Assistant] He said that! And the doctor? Well, he's joking, but that was his way of saying that he had swag.


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[Assistant] The thing that will always immortalize that though is that Asap Yams tweeted that quote. Which at the time, like, I had already forgot that he said it because this was like five years later that Yams quoted it.


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[Assistant] Before I forget, I thought of a good question that I hope that there's a good answer to. So Chicago, especially from that era where you guys first came up, was super known for a ton of insane slang. Is there anything in particular that you came up with? That I came up with? Yeah, that caught on and became well known.


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[Assistant] Okay, so do you pay attention even now to like the street level drama that's going on in Chicago? Like if somebody gets killed, are they reporting? You gotta hear about it because you need to know.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Did, okay, did, did Keith take off with Bang and everything before there was a GBE or, or? There was always a GBE. There was always, but how did Fredo and Reese come in?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] From your opinion, from your perspective, could it have been any of them who really exploded? Because Keith was the first, like, big one who blew off of Chicago. But could it have been any of them?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Okay, so they were kind of like, from what was Keith from their perspective? Was that like the new kid rapping? Were they, they had been rapping for a while before him? Nah, Keith was the one rapping. Keith was rapping.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Were you concerned with a lot of other artists you were working with at the same time or when he came out was it kind of like, oh this is it?


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[Assistant] So from your perspective though, was that dope? Because you made a bunch of money and had a big hit?


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[Assistant] Right, so are you still chasing after doing songs with like bigger artists or do you feel like at this point you're just working with your boys?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] How do you go about like, networking with them again, Beats Place and shit?


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[Assistant] And the vice thing, you can tell that like the camera crew seems even a little intimidated by her, like they're not really sure what to do.


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[Assistant] Would you say a brand aneurysm? Yep. Wow, really? So you didn't see it coming or anything?


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[Assistant] What was her reaction like when you started to come up in the rap game, like when you first started to make it, cause I'm assuming you're, you know,


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[Assistant] I was gonna say, were you able to change their lives a bunch through your success?


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[Assistant] Veggie way, veggie way, huh Phillip? You think it's true that white people never use any seasoning on their chicken?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Go heavy. I use too much. I gross myself out.


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[Assistant] Do you feel like you, uh, do you like doing the hipster type events and shit?


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[Assistant] Yeah. When you go to a show in LA, it's all little white kids.


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[Assistant] Gustavo, from your perspective, is he the kind of guy that's really easy to deal with or is he getting in trouble here and there?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Well, you're a kid, you're young, you're 23, right? That's fucking, it's just like, you naturally speak that language, whereas like, somebody who, I mean, I feel lucky because I feel like I kind of do too, but a lot of times you meet, you know, 40, 50 year old dudes in the music industry and they're still trying to figure out why Instagram Live makes sense, whereas for you, as soon as you saw it, you got it.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Because you don't have as much control over what songs become hits, but you have a ton of control over being out there on Snapchat or Instagram or Twitter keeping people reminded of you being around.


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Uh, when, when someone goes to a Young Chop concert, what is the experience like? Do you get out there and run around and scream in their faces? You do get in the crowd.


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[Assistant] You feel like you're underrated? Yea. Cause they don't, they don't acknowledge you for that enough, right?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] Didn't you say that's your least favorite song, like off of that whole mixtape?


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[Assistant] Remember that video of that fucking white person coming and picking up Keith and like making him record his verse and shit? That was so weird. Who was that for? Peter or something? Pitchfork? I don't know what the fuck it was for. It was so weird. Cause I usually record them. Or don't like. Oh really?


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[Assistant] From your perspective though, like what, you're just back in Chicago and like things probably seemed kind of normal and then all of a sudden shit just starts fucking skyrocketing, right? Like what was your perspective on it?


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[Assistant] Hey, were you ever inspired by DJ Khaled in order, in terms of like, just going out and being a big personality and being a star as a DJ? As a DJ? Or as a producer? Khaled?


[User] Please transcribe this text

[Assistant] But I just meant in the sense that like, Khaled seems to be like a master of putting himself out there and almost like turning himself into like a cartoon and like creating all these memes around him.


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[Assistant] Cause you've done it enough times at this point that it's like, you get the idea.


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[Assistant] Does that surprise you that that is like one of the craziest, most iconic songs ever? And that was the, that's one of his biggest shits. That shit went platinum. I'm like, what the fuck? It's all energy, don't you think? It's all about like the vibe at that moment.


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[Assistant] When you're on tour, are you putting in work on the thoughts or not? On the who? On the thoughts? Yeaah.


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[Assistant] On everything I love. On my mama. You'll pass it a little house-farm when you're done? Yea. That's fine. You're a good guy.


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[Assistant] I do, I care about my fans. I do too. So much that I'll fuckin' bang them.


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[Assistant] This going while I go take a piss for 30 seconds? Fuck you, I wanted to piss too. Say some real fucked up shit. I'll let you piss after. I feel like we have at least like another good 20 minutes here.


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[Assistant] Alright, well. I'm gonna go take a piss while you interrogate him about fucking fans rock.


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[Assistant] A dude made me take a picture holding up his iPhone case and then he made it an Instagram ad.


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[Assistant] You doing good off that? Really? It's just a bunch of like basic shit that they can buy so you can just say-


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[Assistant] You should charge like extra bucks and get like a personalized like 8x10 glossy photo of Young Chop autographed. To Chad, enjoy your beat. Enjoy your beat.


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[Assistant] I got an iconic Young Chop quote. Y'all bitch ass security. Y'all need to stop it.


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[Assistant] What were they doing at that point that pissed you off?


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[Assistant] My mixtapes? Yea, my mixtapes. That's who put the party on? Yea. And, and you chose not to go that route though? Yea. Fucked him. Not that kind of guy? Yea.


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[Assistant] People say like, oh, you don't respect your fans. You don't support your fans just because you tell them to fuck off. It's like, no, I'm just playing with you. I'm having fun.


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[Assistant] Okay, but say you get an email. The price is right, it's the ugliest motherfucker ever. He white, he got red hair, he's so ugly, and he's like, Chop, I'm gonna be in LA tomorrow, I got 30 grand for you, I need you to rap on this, I need you to do the beat, and I need you to be in the video, and I'm gonna pay him to put it on WorldStar.