and so traditional buildings like I mean you know the Bukit brown cemetery has has been gone long gone, they have dug up the land they have cleared the the cemetery they moved them to a crematorium because there's not enough space so what is the point in preserving all these heritage traditional buildings or even spaces when there's not enough land to begin with


you see because limited land space causes everyone to prioritize the economic and future development of singapore so why is there a need to fulfill like the historic the history or even the culture needs when we do not even focus on economic development of the country


because we want to think far we want to see far I mean it's all about for future generation maybe like in ten twenty years' time this important land that uh, the heritage site is is been preserved on like maybe like I said the Kampung, Lorong Buangkok I mean that can be built into a something that creates jobs for the next generation I mean doesn't have to be like a giant like a JTC I mean it can even be like


I don't know lah, government body can take over the land because land is valuable I do not see the purpose in preserving heritage in its physical form when you can even like, preserve it in books or even I don't know photos you don't need to preserve it physically because there's not enough space


I mean for future economic development we need to clear all these because there is no time to to like to to, to think about the memories the heritage something sentiment something emotional when we can focus on the development and the and the prospects of the country that is more important to the nation


okay that's quite interesting like the points you put across like the chinese new year celebrations but don't you think that this kind of celebrations can be celebrated I mean at home does it have to be celebrated in physical space as of heritage


do you think that makes a difference when the celebration is from the heart I mean the essence of chinese new year is to get together with family does it really matter where you celebrate it at, I mean as long as you are I mean together with your family then the next point how often do you really think these heritage place are are used for for singaporeans for local people or rather are they used for tourist sites I mean as a form of like a cultural identity as you would put it


do you think they are really meant for a purpose of of really to really find out about your heritage or or is it just uh just to show off that we have a heritage to to talk about our our history our take history but yet is really taking up too much space


to anything of economic progression and how the country is going forward so isn't it ironic that we are trying to talk about preserving heritage when we are as a country we're looking forward instead of looking at the past of how we like overcome all these obstacles when there are no longer challenges as anymore


as being a first world country we should always look ahead, I mean we should not keep harping on the past on the history of how difficult it it was to get here but instead we should look forward and to see to see the further, to see further sites for our next generation that is yet to come lah


ya so ya so the opposition now so ya I think that literature, has a practical value because life is always about words we express words uh in a daily on a daily basis and


and, literature is something that that resonates to all of us even even if you don't understand it and that itself has value in it, the poem shakespeare's uh plays TV uh TV shows at the end of the day it's always it comes back to literature the basics of uh


of words expressing for what you feel, so, if there is no practical value in it, how do we express our feelings our thoughts our imagination and our creativity so I feel that


literature uh as a subject has value in the things we do


okay so I think the misconception about creativity is oh is arts is is is arts and and design but I think creativity as a literature standpoint is also communication


if we're talking about business if we're talking about politics uh politicians literature is what they are trying to say and what they are trying to convince the other party uh I can convince you to say a million dollar deal


but how do I do it that's that's when creativity comes about creativity might not entirely be about design or about art but it's the way you convey a message that was supposed to in your mind


so , so ya creativity is is is not about design it's about it's about self-expression and your ideas in in, communicating your message to someone else


at the end of the day , as much as we deny literature in our everyday life that subjects are studies are a higher level with literature


and and at the end of the day also that, that, is literature practical we have to ask ourself, , without literature will anything be practical


like how do I say for example we can do maths we can do science we can do our our numbers and uh equations but even albert einstein and newton


uh if you look at their previous works ah their their their past works, there is a hint of literature , in their work in the way they express so back to the question is literature even practical I feel that it is because if


uh if someone who is always book smart, uh how do they even expressed theirself their they can only express themself with the same kind of people and if the world revolves around that one community or like minded people without the the the the the expression or the


or or using literature in everyday life I think it's a very mundane world and even at the end of the day even if we deny that that uh literature is is is useless is is not practical it's not tangible


at the end of the day when we're trying to sell something very very hard to someone or try to to to buy something, we use a sort of literature in in the way we communicate so, ya revert back to the question one more time is literature practical I think it is


(hmm) alright so ya so uh just, side track a bit uh about about the the literature not being tangible and stuff if we continue this debate of going in to the same row over and over again einstein said that einstein said that insanity is something that you do over and over again


and expect the same result so for one party to say that is is not tangible and for the other parties to say that it's tangible practical thing to have as literature we are going nowhere


so just a quote a quote from uh charles dickens uh in the in the book he wrote a tale of two cities so a brief backstory is that is that, he was about to to be executed on the guillotine so this is an example of of what literature is tangible and and it's a way of expressing someone's


self at the vulnerable situation of his so he said that it is, far far better thing that I do than I have ever done, it is a far far better rest I go to than I've ever known


so without, so without this this small short quote or uh uh this inspiring literature if he wouldn't have this, if he thought that that literature is something that is not tangible and it has no value


he wouldn't uh people wouldn't know about him he he wouldn't have expressed himself he could he could write uh he could write uh, uh, uh uh ten page art uh ten page spread of maths and equation of why of what happens after he goes uh or his life like


like like albert einstein or the famous uh uh mathecians where instead of using literature they use a sort of , a combination of equations to solve something


so maybe the question is, at the end of the day is it better to use an equation to solve something of maths and science where a few people knows or is it better to


to to express your way in literature, to for for the whole world for people all sorts of, walks of life to to to understand what you have feel


so to answer the question about about the job aspects of uh whether literature is , practical, like like like you mentioned that, that academics and maths will will in the end still overpower literature


but at the end of the day if a company uh if a company or an organisation is hiring someone and they're hiring someone based on academics rather than the the way they speak uh what I meant what I mean by the way they speak is


once again literature literature is something like I mentioned, uh it's a it's a way of self expression it's a way of expressing an idea uh that you have in your head so if a company if a company


is always looking for an academic person I think that company is is something that that will go nowhere, so as I mentioned that quote earlier by by charles dickens,


to to go ahead to go ahead into the future and and to to, to further improve uh oneself I think literature is also a very very key key thing to have


if only you have the maths and science but if you can't explain it to a a layman or someone that is out of your field I think I think that that is something that society lacks


as you mentioned that, uh will it be a will it be a, uh uh heads up or lead, or uh are we taking the positions of history's historians and and literature people I think


I think at the end they if if we're trying to express something we want people to learn we want people to share so, so it's we're not trying to take anything we're trying to we're trying to improve the world as it is


so, so, ya as I as I mentioned , it's a practical value to have uh literature is a practical value to have yup


okay so there's only uh roughly around two minutes to to finish this discussion off so, uh I think I think uh ya just to summarise I feel that that there, from what I've from what I've observed in this discussion there's


two school of thoughts, and, and like I mentioned if we are going to debate, over and over again, we're gonna go nowhere so so, at the end of day we should just accept that


there is two kinds of people, one that that does believe in literature, has a uh practical value in life and there are other uh doesn't believe in it, so what I feel that, that is is that


as a person as individual as I mentioned countless of times, literature is uh it's something about self expression, academics is one thing but if you're good at academics and if you are also good in literature you are a force to be reckoned with


and it's something that will change the world eventually if you are going to be a politician, or you are gonna be a maths genius or, or someone important so


as as we we grow up , uh learning academics maths science we can't stray away from that, it's a it's a fundamental, of education and it's a and it's a it it is a practical value no doubt about it but as


we grow older we realize that that uh in my experience that, literature the words we speak is far more greater and more powerful than than maths and science so uh I'll end off with this quote about harry potter


the goblet of fire by the most famous JK rowling so as I mentioned you can either do a do a equation that only a few can understand, or you can do literature that, the whole world can understand so this is what she said like it matters not what someone is born but what they grow to be


ya, ya alright zero nice, still submit


okay


okay , I feel that that investing in arts and museum is not a waste of money it's something that, that actually helps you makes money make money so recently I've gone to the the arts and science museum in singapore


and , the it's it's quite an educational journey , even in the science museum is also a part of uh uh primary schools a primary school child's


childhood memory so if we are if we are trying to take away the funds of uh arts and museum, then, we're not really uh educating our public and our future generations uh about about the history and about innovation and about creativity


it's it's like, taking a circle and cutting it into four squares and telling the person that okay these are only the four sides in life you have to learn so going to art, museum and uh arts arts and the museums uh actually open your mind up to to other things because of the competitiveness


of the economy of jobs nowadays uh we too have to look at arts, arts and the museums for inspiration and and stuff so uh a question maybe for for the proposition people is that


what happens if if the the arts in museums are gone what can replace it


(ppc) (ppc)


so I I hear your point that


the there is other alternative for education uh rather than the arts and museums, but arts in museums is also a way of life it's a, it's a, is is something that that that opens your mind up to other things rather than a very narrow minded mind uh narrow minded person who doesn't uh who doesn't see art


and uh the culture of museums as alternative to living life, so I feel that I feel that investing in arts and the museums is always a good thing because


we are trying to we are trying to, uh educate and and and uh, and to grow the future the future people, of the world our young


if we are always trying to go for academics and and studies and we deprive them from arts and museum uh and museums artworks installations and design


they will in the end just be another paper, paper uh book person a person who who, has has only the knowledge of what the books tells them so back again if we do not if we cut the funds for arts and the museums we are also cutting the brain cells and creativity of


of the the future generation of singapore, as we we go into the future and as we as we as our young grow older


if they do not know the history of of what our forefathers did or or if they don't, see the art the outside world of modern art of abstract art, then we'll all just be zombies with high grades


singapore won't be uh singapore won't stand out from the other future generations of other countries, , just let me give you an example of taiwan they made uh uh


in Kaohsiung they they have this uh art pier which is actually a a scrap land so instead of of not investing they could have invest in uh military defense they could have invest in other stocks or


or education but instead they they they they invested time and, money in in in, the in the the the location itself and after a few years the the art pier actually became a vibrant community where where youngsters uh tourism


like-minded creatives and uh artists came together and actually created a a small ecosystem I would say to to this uh art pier this Kaohsiung art pier, so that is uh uh uh uh like a very


good example of of turning something that you thought, it was a waste of money, into a a very viable uh assets of Kaohsiung now everyone that goes Kaohsiung will go to this art pier because because uh of the the arts and the history and the heritage behind it


so if you have a plan , uh if you have uh uh uh, plan to go forth , uh do it don't don't let people persuade you off another thing


so I think what you're referring to uh about uh the wastage of money and the hospitality of investing is the the ten million dollars that the government


uh promised for the arts and arts and museum culture so , uh there was a statement given that that the the ten million dollars will be


oh alright can so , as as I was saying that that, uh it it is not a waste of money to to to give to it's not a waste of money to to not invest in the the arts museums because at the uh during COVID period


there is a certain budget for each sector in singapore and they already set aside a a a sum a sum of money to invest in the arts and museum, so, people's jobs are counting on on the arts and


working at a museum so if you strip away the investment the the investment money of arts and museums you are also stripping away their livelihood, of of the people that work uh day in day out in in


preserving creating art preserving the museums and keeping it running, so, if there is no arts in singapore what's special about us like is it the economy is it about the high scholars in singapore uh back back to the the Kaohsiung example


they drew almost an increase of ten percent in in in tourism since the start of the Kaohsiung art pier, so that alone shows that that that is a liable asset


in the economic structure in the GDP of of of a country so if you take away, the museums uh if we if we strip the jobs of people aren't we playing god aren't we not being fair to the people that that put their heart and soul into


into these uh arts and museums, so what can we do what can we do if we take away arts and museum what is your uh proposition how can you substitute their jobs and livelihood


in, if you take away the arts and museums investing uh money


okay so uh ya as as uh what I've heard the the proposition uh people the party the the ruling party have said that, that oh it's easy to to to take away their jobs they can find other jobs it's easy to say that for the the the superior party because uh party meaning the proposition uh people


that we are debating with it's easy to say that because the livelihood your livelihood has not been affected and never will be affected so as one of your as one of your , as as uh one of the persons that was actually mentioning that that I quote that for


that uh I quote that, that he said that for our arts, sorry , that that uh he quoted sorry yup


that he quoted that uh for arts and uh arts and, culture residents uh ya sorry I'll I'll just, skip that ya so he he mentioned that he has a a plan for the arts and arts and culture residents that uh with this plan uh


he will, I'm sorry, yup sorry I got side tracked a bit so uh ya he said that , uh he has a plan to to remove the the the arts


and and museum and culture investing of money, that it is all right for, for their livelihood to be taken away and it's easy for them to find a job as you mentioned so, ya what what I'm trying to say is that


it is not easy to to find another job or to go a different outlet because our arts and arts and the museums are very very valuable assets to our nation, uh GDP and if we take it away from it we are also losing money so I uh that's all I have to say


(ppc), okay okay so ya I I agree with, the the proposition person of saying that that ya we need to we need to clear


heritage and we uh we need to uh excavate all these heritage throw it out and and build new stuff ya there is a certain extent of agreement on that, but I'll I'll get to my my my main point in just a while


but what, what we are, what we are doing if we actually do this we're giving big corporations the rights to to to to take away all these heritage like uh as mentioned JTC was one of them to to take this big organisation and give them a blank check


of of money to to invest into grow, so, so, back to my point heritage is something that brings out the essence in a, place it it's something that that has


life in a in another meaning, it's something uh not tangible at the same time tangible, heritage is, the the expression of one's place and as uh and it's expression of oneself


so , we have to preserve this heritage that we have there's a reason for it being uh around for so long heritage started back in uh maybe the the greek centuries or maybe even further so heritage builds


builds a a community where where people can can come together to be as, one as a singular cell because at the end of the day if you to protect heritage is to protect life and essence and and the essence of life and and emotion of people itself


so if we're if we're gonna give the rights to big organiaations and the government to to take away this heritage what is left for the future you say that


people uh we need to think further we need to think forwards, but isn't going back a slingshot effect now is a sling slingshot effect to push ourselves forward we have to and the we have to once in a while look back at the history and where we all started before pushing forward because if you knew


if you know more about yourself if you know more about history if you know more about culture, uh and heritage you can progress further as a society if you lost if you lose that heritage if you lose that that that


that emotion that our forefathers are created, who who are we in the near future, aren't we someone aren't aren't we all, another foreign country, so I disagree that we should tear down our heritage we have to preserve our heritage because


if not we are just a monopoly uh metropolis of emptiness, so maybe a question to to propose to you that, that after building all these heritage after going to the future ten years down the road what what do we even benefit from it


so , as you mentioned why why it it doesn't have to be a big plan it can be a small plan to to uh remove heritage and build more lands


but what but what is the what is the the repercussions, of of, of taking away heritage and, so uh I've I've I've gone through


I've discussed a lot about heritage, and all so it's it's funny how people how people and single minded people, think because at the end of the day we do celebrate chinese new year we do celebrate #hari raya#


so how can one person say that it's okay to tear down heritage places to build lands but at the same time still celebrate chinese new year isn't isn't that contradicting to oneself, so if you are if you are celebrating chinese new year you are already part of a heritage so imagine imagine imagine tearing down and uh a your grandma's place


a kampung place that has many many years of heritage and generation heritage and memories, tearing that down to build a shopping mall, you lose that essence of of, of meaning towards a place and at the end of the day after tearing it down it'll just be a another land it doesn't have emotion it doesn't have a purpose in being there it's just another skyscraper in in a dense population place


so, why why do people why do people, want to tear heritage down, but still celebrate chinese new year yes it's not it's a it's a it's not a tangible thing so it doesn't take up land and everything but at the end of the day it's still goes back to heritage so if you are saying that


weak it's alright to tear down famous places and all but, it's also alright to celebrate chinese new year so it's a it's a bit of uh it's a bit of uh uh uh, hypocrite move to make so


some of the places that, that maybe I should mention, is the is the temple at chinatown it's a it's a historical heritage where it was built in the in the world war


world war times where where, many chinese migrant chinese singaporean chinese come and go get together, if we tear down this type of places and build a shopping mall, we lose the essence of of the history of community gathering and it'll just be a place where we eat eat our dinner shop for food and that's about it so


if we if we look at it ten years down the road where where we we, destroy all the heritage there is in our country we are nothing more than


a a concrete jungle with no emotions, and nowhere to look for, for sanity and and emotions and a place to to rest your mind, it'll it'll be it's it'll be like uh it'll be like uh


uh a four walled, place where everywhere you look is is the same, there is no view there is no window to see the outside world outside world meaning, the heritage that was here you won't see the posters up and everything so


so maybe the question is the question I will propose to you is, is, uh how many heritage does it take to satisfy the land problem does it take does it take the whole entire country or or is there a limit


okay so uh I I get your point but if you look at it in economic way uh and uh


tourism way let's do it let's stray aside the, main topic of of uh preserving heritage so, let me just uh let let me just put a point out , tourism is one of the main is one of the main income source for a nation and why do people travel to to


to other places like for example uh taiwan, or or or hong kong, or or china or or thailand or, malaysia is is it is to see the heritage it is uh once again yes to shop and everything but in that shopping district you can find bits and pieces of heritage which links back


to a monument of a location or a place so, if we are trying to tear down to build more shopping malls and land aren't we also tearing down the economy of tourism in our country uh if you look at it in a way that that


imagine the the whole, the whole country the whole country of singapore has no more heritage what are tourists coming here for, is it because of the shopping malls but then again they have shopping malls back in their country is it because of the currency singapore's currency is one of the highest uh in all of south east asia so if we are tearing down


heritage spots to build shopping mall lands isn't ironic that that we're also tearing down future incomes for tourism spots


if, uh so like I mentioned that there are other countries people go there for for tourism because of heritage so for example taiwan, people go to to Taipei for the for the grand palace uh where where there is the exchanging of guards and everything so right there is also a heritage of of how last time a few years ago they changed guards they change


uh the king's the royal guards so in Bangkok you have your your Yaowarat and your your temples so these are history these are heritage so, uh once again I ask you to imagine that imagine going to thailand and not seeing these temples and not seeing these


these heritage places and imagine imagine seeing there the malls like for example let me give you one more example of the the news, Siam the Siam paragon at the #chao phraya# river I have noticed and studied the news that that there is


also a lack of of footfall in the the shopping mall itself because if you look at it in a way, there there is no there is no heritage there is no essence to the to the shopping mall the only essence is material


meaning that there is a lot of expensive shops and expensive jewelleries and stuff, but, as a traveller as a a a heritage person, you go to a country to explore to open your mind to more staff and to and to see the world


so I think Bangkok the Siam paragon at the #chao phraya# river is a very good example of what happens if you tear down a heritage place to build a to build a shopping mega, shopping mall you don't see a lot of income you only see one


one part of societies spending their luxury and their income there which is the more wealthy people but what if you go to the grand palace in Bangkok where a ticket costs you twenty dollars or more


if you look at it in a in a business standpoint that heritage site alone earns more than what Siam paragon has to offer so, I I I advise the the the the the people to think is heritage if if is heritage if is tearing down heritage a good idea


and I think that preserving heritage also preserves the livelihood and rice bowls of everyone


okay, okay so yeah (ppc) so I'm the opposition now so yeah I think the literature, has a practical value because life is always about words we express words uh in the daily basis on the daily basis


and literature is something that that resonates to all of us even even if you don't understand it and that itself has value in it, the poem shakespeare's ah plays TV uh TV shows at the end of the day it's always it comes back to literature the basics of uh


of words expressing of what you feel, so if there is no practical value in it how do we express, our feelings our thoughts our imagination and our creativity so I feel that literature as a subject has value in the things we do how


okay so I think the misconception about creativity is oh it's arts is is is arts and and design but I think creativity as a literature standpoint it's also communication


if we're talking about business if we're talking about politics ah politicians, literature is what they are trying to say and what they're trying to convince the other party ah I can convince you to sign a million dollar deal


but how do I do it that's that's when creativity comes about creativity might not entirely be about desire or about arts, but is the way you convey a message that was supposed to in your mind


so , so yeah creativity is is is not about design it's about, it's about self expression and your ideas in in communicating your message to someone else


at the end of the day , as much as we deny literature in our everyday life that subjects in studies are a higher level with literature


and and at the end of the day also that, that, is literature practical we have to ask ourselves, , without literature will anything be practical like how do I say for example we can do maths we can do science we can do our


ah numbers and ah equations but even albert einstein and newton, ah if you look at their previous works are out eh their their their past works there is a hint of literature in their work in the way they express so back to the question is literature even practical I feel that it is


because if uh if someone who is always book smart, uh how do they even expressed themselves they're they can only express themselves, with the same kind of people and if the world revolves around that one community or


like minded people, without the the the the the expression or the or or using literature in everyday life I think it's a very mundane world, and even at the end of the day even if we deny that that


ah literature is is is useless is it's not practical it's not tangible, at the end of the day when we're trying to sell something very very hard to someone or try to to to buy something


we use a sort of literature in in the way we communicate so ya revert back to the question one more time is literature practical I think it is yup


oh alright so yeah so ah could just to side track a bit ah, about about the the literature not being tangible and stuff if we continue this debate of going in to the same rowd over and over again einstein said that einstein said that insanity is something that you do over and over again


but expect the same result so for one party to say that is, is not tangible and for the other party to say that it's a tangible practical thing to have as a literature we are going nowhere so just a quote a quote from charles dickson uh in the in the book he wrote a tale of two cities


so uh a by backstory is that is that, he was about to to be executed on the gallatin so this is an example of, of what literature is tangible and and it's a way of expressing someone's self at the vulnerable situation of his so he said that it is a far far better thing that I do


than I have ever done, it is a far far better rest I go to than I ever known so without so without this this small short quote or uh uh this inspiring literature


if he wouldn't have this if he thought that that literature is something that is not tangible and it has no value, , he wouldn't uh people wouldn't know about him


he he wouldn't have expressed himself he could he could write a he could write a uh uh uh a ten page art, a ten page spread of maths and equation, of why of what happens after he goes or or his life like like like albert einstein or the famous ah matheticians where instead of using literature they use a sort of


a a combination of equations to solve something so maybe the question is, at the end of the day is it better to use an equation to solve something of maths and science where a few people knows or is it better to to to express your way in literature


to for for the whole world for people of all sorts of walks of life to to to understand what you have feel


so to answer the question about about the job aspects of uh whether literature is practical, like like like you mentioned that


that academics and maths will will in the end still overpower literature, but at the end of the day if a company if a company or an organization is hiring someone


and they're hiring someone based on academics rather than the the way they speak uh what I meant what I mean by the way they speak is uh once again literature literature is something like I mentioned


ah it's a it's a way of self expression is a way of uh expressing an idea that you have in your head so if a company if a company is always looking for an academic


person I think that company is is something that that will go nowhere so as I mentioned the quote earlier by by charles dickson, to to go ahead to go ahead into the future and and to to to further improve a oneself I think a literature is also a very very key key thing to have


, if only you have the maths and science but if you can't explain it to a a layman or someone that's out of your field I think I think that that is something that society lacks


as you mentioned that, ah would it be a will be a a a heads up or lead, or are are we taking, the positions of history's historians and, and literature people I think I think at the end of day if if we're trying to express something we want people to learn we want people to share so


so it's, we're not trying to take anything we're trying to we're trying to improve the world as it is so, so, ya as I as I mention


it's a practical value to have uh literature is a practical value to have , ya


(mmhmm) okay so there is only a roughly around two minutes to to finish this discussion off so ah I think I think , ya just to summarise I feel that that that from what I've from what I've observe in this discussion there is


to school of thoughts, and and like I mention, if we are going to debate over and over again we are going to go nowhere so maybe so, at the end of day we should just accept that


there is two kinds of people one that that does believe in literature has a ah practical value in life and the other ah doesn't believe in it, so what I feel that that is is that


as a person as an individual as I mentioned countless of times literature's ah is something about self expression academics is one thing but, if you are good at academics and if you are also good in literature you are forced to be racked with and it's something that will change the world eventually if you are going to be a politician or you're going be a maths genius


or or someone important so , as as we we grow up , ah learning academics maths science we can't stray away from that it's a


it's a fundamental of education and it's uh and it's uh it it is a practical value no doubt about it but as we grow older we realize that that uh in my experience that


literature the words we speak is far more greater and more powerful than than maths and science, so uh I will end up with this quote about harry potter the goblet of fire by the most famous J K rowling so as I mention you can either do a do a equation that only a few can understand


or you can do literature that the whole world can understand so this is what she said like it matters not, what someone is born but what they go to be ya


okay okay so yeah I I I agree with the the proposition person of saying that that ya we need to we need to clear heritage and, we uh we need to


uh excavate all these heritage throw it out and and build new stuff ya there is a certain extent of agreement on that, but I'll I'll get to my my my main point just a while but, what


what we are, what we are doing if we actually do this we're giving big corporations, the rights to to to to take away all these heritage like ah as mentioned JTC was one of them to to take this big organization and give them a blank cheque of of money to to invest and to grow


though so, back to my point heritage is something, that brings up the essence in a place, it it's something that that, has life


in uh in another meaning, it's something uh not tangible at the same time tangible, heritage, is the expression of one's place and as ah and is a expression of oneself


so , we have to preserve this heritage that we have there's a reason for it being ah around for so long, heritage started back in uh maybe the the greek centuries or maybe even further so heritage builts builts uh a community where where people can can come together


to be as, one as a singular cell, because at the end of the day if you to protect heritage is to protect life and essence and and the essence of life and, and the emotion of people itself so if we are if we are going to give the rights to big organizations and the government to to take away these heritage what is left for the future


you say that people uh we need to think further we need to think forwards but isn't going back, a slingshot effect ah is a slingshot effect to push ourselves forward we have to at that we have to once in a while look back at the history and where we all started before pushing forward


because if you knew if you know more about yourself if you know more about history if you know more about culture, uh and heritage you can progress further as a society, if you loss if you lose that heritage if you lose that


that that, that emotion that our forefathers have created, who who are we in the near future aren't we someone aren't aren't we all, another foreign country


so, I disagree that we should tear down our heritage we have to preserve our heritage because, if not we are just a monopoly uh metropolis of emptiness


so maybe a question to to propose to you that that after building all these heritage after going to the future ten years down the road, what, what do we even benefit from it


so , as you mention why why it it doesn't have to be a big plan it can be a small plan to to ah remove heritage and build more lands


but what but what is the what is the the repercussions of of, of taking away heritage, and, so ah I've I've I've gone through I've discussed a lot about heritage and all


so it's it's funny how people how people and sinking minded people think, because at the end of the day we do celebrate chinese new year we do celebrate hari raya so how can one person say that


it's okay to tear down heritage places to build lands but at the same time still celebrate chinese new year in the end isn't that contradicting to oneself so if you are if you are celebrating chinese new year


you are already part of a heritage so imagine imagine imagine tearing down in uh your your grandma's place a Kampung place that has many many years of heritage and generation heritage and memories


tearing that down to build a shopping mall, you lose that essence of of, of meaning towards a place and at the end of the day after tearing it down it will just be a another land it doesn't have emotion it doesn't have


a purpose in being there is just another skyscraper in in a dense population place, so, why why do people why do people, want to tear heritage down


but still celebrate chinese new year yes is not is a is a is not a tangible thing so it doesn't take up land and everything, but at the end of the day it still goes back to heritage so if you are saying that we it's alright to tear down famous places and all but


it's also alright to celebrate chinese new year so it's a it's a bit of a it's a bit of, a uh uh hypocrite move to make, so, some of the places that that maybe I should mention is the is the temple at chinatown


it's a it's a historical heritage where it was built in the in the world war world war times where where many chinese migrant chinese singaporean chinese come and go to get together, if we tear down these type of places and build a shopping mall


we lose the essence of of the history of community gathering and it will just be a place where we eat, eat our dinner shop for food and that's about it, still go if we if we look at it ten years down the road where where


we, we, destroy all the heritage that is in our country, we are nothing more than uh a concrete jungle with no emotions


and no where to look for, for sanity and and emotions and a place to to rest your mind, it will it will be it'll it so it will be like a it will be like a uh a four wall place


where everywhere you look is, is the same, there is no view there is no window to see the outside world outside world meaning the heritage that was here, you won't see the posters up and everything so so maybe the question is the question I will propose to you is


is, uh how many heritage, does it take to satisfy the land problem does it take does it take a whole entire country


or or is there a limit to it


okay so ah I I get your point but if you look at it in economic way uh , and uh a tourism way let's do let's stray aside the the main topic of of ah preserving heritage


so let me just ah let me let me just put a point out , tourism, is one of the main is one of the main income source for a nation and why do people travel to to to other places like for example uh taiwan


or or or hong kong or, or china or or thailand or malaysia, is is to it is to see the heritage, it is uh once again yes to shop and everything but in that shopping district you can find bits of pieces of heritage which links back to a monument of a location or a place


so if we are trying to tear down to build more shopping malls and land, aren't we also tearing down the economy, of tourism in our country, uh if you look at it in a way that that


imagine the the whole the whole country the whole country of singapore has no more heritage what are tourists coming here for, is it because of the shopping malls but then again they have shopping malls back in their country is it because of the currency singapore's currency is one of the highest ah in all of southeast asia


so if we are tearing down, ah heritage spots to build shopping mall lands isn't it ironic that that we are also tearing down future incomes for tourism spots


, if, ah so like I mentioned that that other countries people go there for for tourism because of heritage so for example taiwan people go to to Taipei for the for the grand palace ah where where there is the exchanging of guards and everything so right there is also a heritage of


of how last time a few years ago they changed guards they changed , uh the kings the royal guards so in Bangkok you have your your Yaowarat and your your temples so these are histories these are heritage so


ah once again I ask you, to imagine that imagine going to thailand and not seeing these temples and not seeing these this heritage places and imagine seeing the, the malls like for example let me give you one more example of the the new Siam the Siam paragon at the the #chao phraya# river


I have notice and study the news that that there is also a lack of of footfall in the the shopping mall itself because if you look at it in a way, there there is no there is no heritage there is no essence to the to the shopping mall the only essence is material


meaning that there is a lot of expensive shops and expensive jewelleries and stuff but, as a traveler as uh uh uh a heritage person, you go to a country to explore to open your mind to to more stuff and to and to see the world


so I think Bangkok the Siam paragon at the #chao phraya# river is a very good example of what happens if you tear down a heritage place to build a to build a shopping mega shopping mall you don't see a lot of income you only see one


one part of society spending their luxury and their income there which is the more wealthy people but what if you go to the grand palace in Bangkok where a ticket cost you twenty dollars or more, if you look at it in a in a business standpoint that heritage site alone earns more than what Siam paragon has to offer so


I I I advise the the the the the people to think is heritage, if ifs ifs heritage if it's tearing down heritage a a good idea


, and, I think that preserving heritage also preserves the the livelihood and rice bowls of everyone right


okay I feel that that, investing in arts and museum is not a waste of money is something that that actually helps you makes money make money so recently I've gone to the the arts and science museum in singapore


and , the is is quite an educational journey , even in the science museum is also a part of uh a primary school's a primary school child's


childhood memory so if we are if we are trying to take away the funds of uh arts and museum, then we are not really uh educating our public and our future generations uh about about the history and about innovation and about creativity it's


it's like taking a circle and cut to get into four squares and telling the person that okay these are only the four sides in life you have to learn so going to art museum and ah arts arts and the museums are actually open your mind up


to to other things because of the competitiveness of the economy of jobs nowadays , uh we too have to look at arts arts and the museums for inspiration


and and stuff so uh a question maybe for for the proposition people is that, , what happens if if the the arts and museums are gone or what can replace it


so I I hear your point that that there is other alternative for education ah rather than the arts and museums


but arts and museums is also a way of life it's a it's a, is is something that that that opens your mind up to other things rather than a very narrow minded I mean ah narrow minded person who doesn't ah who doesn't see art


and the culture of museums as a alternative to living life, so I feel that, I feel that investing in arts and the museums is always a good thing because


we are trying to we are trying to ah educate and and and ah and to grow the future the future people of the world our young


if we are always trying to go for academic, and and studies and we deprive them from arts and museums ah and museums artworks installations and design they will in the end just speaking another paper


paper ah a book person, a person who who has has only the knowledge of what the books tells them, so back again if we do not if we cut the funds for arts and the museums we are also cutting the brain cells and creativity of


of the the future generation of singapore, , as, as ah we we go into the future, and as we as we as our young grow older


if they do not know the history of of what our our forefathers did or or if they don't see the art the outside world of modern arts or [um] abstract art, then we'll all just be zombies with high grades singapore won't be uh singapore won't stand out from the other future generations of other countries


just let me give you an example of taiwan they made a uh in Kaohsiung they they have this ah art pier which is actually uh a a scrap land, so instead of of not investing they could have invest in uh military defence they could have invest in other stocks or or education but


instead they they they they invested time and, money in in , in the in the the the location itself and after a few years the the art pier actually became a vibrant community where where youngsters uh tourism


like minded creatives and ah artists came together and actually created a a a small ecosystem I I would say to to this uh art pier this Kaohsiung art pier, so that is uh uh uh a very good example of of turning something that you thought


it was a waste of money into a a very reviable, ah assets of Kaohsiung now every one that goes Kaohsiung will go to this art pier because, because uh of the the arts and the history and the heritage behind it


so if you have a plan , ah if you have uh uh a plan to go forth , ah do it don't don't let people persuay you of another thing, ya


so I think what you are referring to ah about ah the wastage of, money and the hospitality of investing is the the ten million dollars that the government, [um] [um]


for means for the art and arts and museum culture, so , there was a statement given that at the the ten million dollars will be, no there was no statement it was ten million people


oh alright can so as as I was saying that that uh it it is not a waste of money to, to


to give to is not a waste of money to to not invest in the the arts and museums because at the ah during, COVID period there is a certain budget for each sector in singapore and they already


set aside a a uh sum of money to invest in the arts and museum, so, people's jobs are counting on on the arts and working at the museum so if you strip away the investment the the investment money of arts and museums you are also stripping away the livelihood of of the people that work


ah day in day out, and in preserving creating arts and preserving the museums and keeping it running, so if there is no arts in singapore what's special about us like is it the economy is it about the high scholars in singapore


uh back back to the the the Kaohsiung example, , they drew almost an increase of ten percent in in in tourism, since the start of the Kaohsiung art pier so that alone shows that


that that is a liable asset in the economic structure in the GDP of of of any country so if we take away the museums ah if we if we stripped the jobs of people


aren't we playing god aren't we not being fair to the people that that put their heart and soul into into these arts and museums, so what can we do what can we do if we take away arts and museum what is your ah proposition how can you substitute their jobs and livelihood


in, if you take away the arts and museums investing ah money


okay so yeah as as ah what I've heard the the propposition ah people the party the the ruling party have said that


that oh it's easy to to to take away their jobs they can find other jobs it's easy to say that for the the the superior party because ah party meaning the proposition ah people, that we are debating with it's easy to say that because the livelihood your livelihood has not been affected and never will be affected


so as one of your as one of your as as uh one of the persons that was actually mentioning that that I quote that for, that uh I quote that


that he say that for our arts, sorry for that that uh he quoted that sorry yup


(ppc), that he quoted that ah for a arts and ah arts and culture residents, oh ya sorry I'll I'll just skip that ya so he he mentioned that he has a a plan for their arts and arts and culture residents that uh with this plan ah


you were okay I'm sorry, ya sorry, ah I got side track a bit so uh ya he said that ah he has a plan to to remove the the the arts and and museum and culture investing of money that it is alright for


for their likelihood to be taken away and it's easy for them to find a job as you mention so, ya what what I'm trying to say is that , it is not easy to to find another job or to go a different outlet because ah arts and arts and the museums are very very valuable assets to a nation ah GDP and if we take it away from it we are also losing money


so I uh that's all I have to say


okay so the first debate topic is literature is a subject that has no practical value so in my opinion I feel that it's it's uh something that I resonate with, cause I strongly believe that's literature is is something that is is not very practical I mean we can always learn all the important stuff such as mathematics science which it can help me get a job next time


but something like literature has no practical value because it's it's not valuable there's no proper grading I mean just like arts I think is is really not practical for academics so if you want to be a doctor if you want to be a scientists next time, so there's no point in studying literature as a subject because it has no practical value lah


okay but why do you think we need to express ourselves creatively do you think will help you secure a job next time when you graduate from maybe I a uni or local uni this creativity what is this creativity you speak about do you think it can help you get further in life do you think it can help you secure a well paying job


maybe you to become a civil servant do you think they will ask you during the interview how creative you are do you think they will ask question your subjects whether you you've done well in literature and arts and join do you think it's not something that is it's practical you see because once you go for interview they'll look at your grades how well you did for math


science or even like something that is more valuable that is tangible you can see a proper grade and is and is something that is very practical when it comes to furthering your studies or even for for further career goals lah, that's why I feel


okay I see but being practical we do not need creativity in your daily life do you think that if you learn literature and maybe your uni or you specialise like in english do you think that will be applicable in today, do you think that kind of creativity will help you in


in a form of expressions but that can be also be learned through through math or through even your life skills when you're going out to work you don't really need to learn literature as a subject because it has no practical value it cannot be traded of like say you're unemployed do you think you can learn whatever you learn in literature


to to get you a job or to to get you your pay for the day it cannot be exchanged because it's not tangible is just a idea or something that is you that can help you to express yourself but it's not tangible you don't really see it and there's no physical value to it


I see I understand the point about like you mention like albert einstein but do you really think that without literature if he didn't I mean study or even major in english with literature he wouldn't have accomplished what he has done


I mean that might be too far fetched to to think about lah because, no one knows that I mean this kind of subject is is really hard to say it's just a cause in literature is about the power of writing is about understanding the philosophies require for understanding the deeper meaning in english probably english literature books stories but that doesn't say that


he wouldn't have accomplish more than he has done if he didn't have such creativity or even had studied in english literature, so it's really something that is really debatable but I strongly believe that it has no practical value because I do not see the purpose in in being creative in thinking out of the box I mean


literature does not give you the soft skills or a hard skills you need next time you want to further your studies when you apply for to be a to work and maybe in the civil service, it doesn't get you far because there's no advantage if you have literature or not you know you have studied literature or not because everyone will have other grades or other aheivements to show and that is not something


and studying literature it's not something you are you can be proud of it can't even show results for because it's not graded is not is very very tangible and it is not something that is of practical value


okay it's interesting proposition that what whatever points you bring up but I think we're straying away from the the main debate topic of literature as a, subject because literature as a subject has is is compulsory in school


from when you started out like in primary school that is something compulsory, but as you choose to as in you as you go up to to secondary school then it becomes optional so then you will ask yourself do you think it really is practical you can choose between like a major in literature and the major in history but then for students who choose to major in in literature


how do you think that will help them for our future career pursuits then do you think that will be a cutting edge against, those who major in history or even those in geography that is more more useful and more informative educational and that is something I'll like to to discuss lah


because literature as a subject is it's just really to give you more thought, thought processes to help you think about what what if what what happen something to think about about previous literature books or even like writings by by professors and academics but then again if you choose to pursue this as a career


to major in english literature as you go down further the further career path I think that is really practical not practical and something that is is really, it's a tough shot if you want to compete against all of them like academics the professors and you have nothing to show for if you choose to major in english literature


I mean your quote by charles dickson is is something that is more abstract in it


it might not be really, practical in this context but I feel that, it's not straying too far to all the creative writing and and really down to to what the significance of english literature really means is is really to give you the the thought process as a student but as you as you try and


I mean you set further goals for yourself you set like career paths and you it might not be really be practical at, all for a young student who wants to have a better career and to compete with the others as as the world becomes more competitive I mean sometimes grades are not even enough you you don't even need your like the As in the math and science anymore and what more do you need literature for


do you think it will not even provide you a cutting edge but then like in maybe five to ten years time when everything advances it's not practical at all because it is not it's not there's no results you can show for I mean, even if you score your best As and sometimes it's not even enough to have your to the top your class for math and science sometimes you will need even additional maths or even you'll need languages uh linguistics as well so this creative like english literature


studies is really not practical and it's not, doesn't justifiable I mean now compared to even the the next graduates the next generation that is yet to graduate in maybe five to ten years time


so the second debate topic is, as a society progresses there is little value in preserving its heritage, this is a very interesting topic I mean we are in singapore we are in a first world country I mean every year we see so much progression I mean in terms of like education or in terms of upgrading and migration so I really feel that as a society progresses


there is really no point in preserving heritage l mean you seen so many heritage sites that, I mean there's this #lorong buangkok# and, it's the only Kampung left in singapore I mean that land is so precious and so valuable that if we were to take it away the heritage then we could build a new BTOs a new houses and that could be their


our next generations homes so the why is there a need to preserve that Kampung when there's I mean there's so little families staying there now I mean you can easily move them to another side I mean give them another HDB to stay and and that land they are staying in can be easily scrap because there's no value in keeping the heritage anymore


I really believe that if you do not move all these heritage places I mean there is really no point it slows down singapore's progress as a nation, I mean especially in the terms of upgrading and, and then construction why do we needs to keep on with this heritage


it slows down the whole community's progression I mean if we we keep harping on like the old singapore playgrounds like the #toa payoh# dragon playground I think there is really no progression because the land is landfall in singapore your land scars


so that kind land is is really valuable in to building the next singapore maybe like a JTC hub but something that is is commercial viable something that can bring money for I mean can create jobs bring money for the economy so there's really no point in preserving this heritage


why do we need heritage if we are looking forward to the to the future heritage is poor, it's about looking backwards how do you want to move forward in singapore if you keep looking backwards and like to remix this on the the on the past the heritage we cannot move forward if we are always looking backwards ya


okay but I beg to differ I mean you don't really need to have a physical, heritage that has been preserved to have a history where you can read about it in the books you can read it on the internet we don't need to preserve it in the physical form because we have land scarce


we do not have enough land to begin with and so traditional buildings like I mean you know the bukit brown cemetery have has been gone long gone, they have dug up the land they've cleared the slot cemeteries and moved them to a crematorium because there's not enough space so what is the point in preserving all these heritage traditional buildings or even spaces when there's not enough land to begin with


you see because limited land space causes everyone to prioritise the economic and future development of singapore so why is there a need to fulfill like the historic the history or even the culture needs when we do not even focus on the economic development of the country


because we want to think far we want to see far I mean is all about the future generation maybe like in ten twenty years time this important land than the the heritage site is, is been preserved down like maybe like I said the Kampung in #lorong buangkok# I mean that can be built into uh something that creates jobs for the next generation


I mean it doesn't have to be like a giant like the JTC I mean it can even be like I don't know lah ah government probably can take all the land because land is valuable lah I do not see the purpose in, preserving heritage in its physical form when you can even like preserved books or even I don't know for towards you don't need to


preserve it physically because there is not enough space I mean for future economic development we need to clear all these because there is no time to to like to to to think about the memories the heritage something sentiment nothing emotional when we can focus on the development and


and the prospects of the country that is more important for the nation


okay that's quite interesting by the points you put across like the chinese new year celebrations


but don't you think that this kind of celebrations can be celebrated I mean at home does it have to be celebrated in physical space that's of heritage do you think that makes a difference when the celebration is from the heart, I mean the essence of chinese new year is to get together with family does it really matter where you celebrate it at


I mean as long as you are I mean together with your family and the next point how often do you really think these heritage place are are used for for singaporeans for local people or rather are they use for tourist sites, I mean as a form of like a cultural identity as you would put it


do you think they are really meant for a purpose of, of really to really find out about your heritage or is it just a just to show off that we have a heritage, to to talk about our our history our thick history ah but yet is really taking up too much space


to anything of economic progression and how the country's going forward so then isn't it ironic that we are trying to talk about preserving heritage where we are as a country we are looking forward instead of looking at the past, of how we like overcome all these obstacles when there are no longer challenges as anymore as being a first world country we should always look ahead I mean we should not keep harping on the past or the history of how difficult we


it was to get here but instead we should look forward and to see to see the further to see further sides on next generation that is yet to come lah


okay so the third debate topic it's about the topic of how investing in art and museum, is a waste of money because you come to think about it, investing in arts and museums involves the state funding I mean there's every country has its own arts and museums I mean in singapore we have the singapore arts museum at #bras basah# they have national arts museum but it is but how often do you think the art museums make money


I mean you can invest like maybe I don't know how much the the funding ah per year but let's say ah if the government the state funding invest a million dollars per year you think they have enough income or footfall to really earn back the money invested in these museums


I mean these museums are not just selling tickets I mean do you think they really have enough people to earn back through all the exhibitions or even through a show talks a lots of arts and museums do not earn money at all, this arts and museums are just an outlet for for the creative people to to showcase their works but how often do you think people go and visit these museums or is it just a waste of money that could be spent elsewhere for example a


this like state funding could be spent elsewhere such as through our education or even through the defense budget because arts is uh, intangible object that we could not fund enough because there's no end and there's no limit and then is also no results because study arts as a arts major I mean your career path would be showing you uh work at the museums after that but how often would you earn money at all


because arts is not a proper career to begin with we cannot earn enough money and such you're wasting the state funding and such investing in arts and museums is also a total waste of money


okay that's quite interesting but don't you agree that arts and museum is not the only way of the education, I mean there's so many other ways you can be educated you can read you can write you don't need to go to watch uh a museum play or even do arts you know there's so many ways of education and this amount of money spend in to education through the museums is a waste of money


because you can other way teach the next generation through other forms of creativity I mean they can go for other lessons like robotics coding you don't need that way to be educated because there's no virtual or there's no tangible outcome you can see deriving from art


arts and museum and there's a lot of money being spent inside because state funding, consists of the majority of the investments through arts and museums and with that important funding, they need to see returns and if there's not enough return means they is not they are not making money then what is the point really is it to open uh museum that loses money every year rental is expensive I mean it affects your country


why are we investing things in things that do not make money arts do not make money museums do not make money do you think they are doing well in sales do you think that so many people are going just just because they want to be there or do you think the schools are forcing them to be there


if schools do not encourage museums or school do not like organize museum tours then this art and museums will not and would not be survive at all but I strongly believe that this is a waste of money, in such investments because this money can be brought to better use in maybe in our education system maybe engaging better teachers or even overseas trips as well


okay that's


that's interesting but I've also been to like Kaohsiung pier and don't you think that it's uh it's just an outlet for people to to express their creativity but do you think they actually earn money I don't think they do, in singapore let's bring it back to local context I mean we have different budgets in different even in the parliament has this education budget so if we withdraw in this education budget who suffers the most the children our next generation so if we withdraw the arts budget who suffers the most no one


because there's no tangible assets and there's no tangible like results from the goal I mean students maybe who are exposed to arts may not be as creative, but they can exceed their creativity in other forms, or other shapes I mean they do not necessary needs to visit the art or even go to museums that mean there's other avenues that this money could be put to better use for example


I mean now in the outbreak of the COVID this essential art budget can easily be moved to to the to the healthcare, to the healthcare budget I mean now I mean we been through the circuit breaker where all the non essentials are close, so what was close first the museums don't you see the the point it is not essential it is not important so what happens if you don't go to a museum for two months during circuit breaker nothing happens you see because you can even do things online you can watch a


or watch a play or see exhibitions online you don't need to even to go to a museum, there is no purpose in going to a physical museum so this budget can be can be sent to maybe to the to the healthcare which can be put to better use because this arts and the museums are non essential


and there's really no point and is a total waste of money when you can spend on better use of public services for even for the next generation for the education


I see I mean they can always find a job elsewhere I mean it doesn't necessarily say that their livelihood is effected, when they can easily find a alternative job or maybe those who are working in the museums like the attendance or I mean they can be easily be transferred to another career


I don't think is the issue but the main issue is in local context this spending on the arts and museum is not necessary when there's other creative outlets that they can demand like I mean museum can be a, it's it's obsolete already there's no point in having a physical museum or even having arts as a a channel avenue of expression when there's so many other place you can


can find a creative outlet to do so I mean in terms of livelihood you can easily find another job (ppc) I mean there's you don't need to be stuck in a job just because you you done something since young is not a career path but is a career choice you can choose


you can always choose a alternative so back to my previous point on on how investing in arts and museums is a waste of money I mean you ask me for proposition where on alternative, for for this creative outlet I mean I will suggest maybe making it virtual I mean we are talking about technology we are talking about uh going going virtual going technology going VR


I mean that is something different and something more creative and and and something that is probably cheaper than having you to find the museums rental the cost of people and labour cost is very high every year so it's something different that we something that is more tech


more tech savvy something more advance looking forward to the future I mean that would impact the education schemes and so on lah, and that will be something different to think about


okay I mean ya definitely there's so many schemes somebody have to voluntary to to really close the arts and museums I mean there's many


schemes in place to help all this people transit to proper job so so I think that's really some the least of considerations here but the most important is to really move the funding elsewhere


debate topic one debate topic one, I start, right okay ah


a literature, it's a subject that has no practical value, so, I'm okay ah literature is writing any form of writing so the


definition is written works especially those considered of superior or a lasting artistic merit, right now, in the age of, technology and smartphones people are moving away from all these like romance novels poetry fiction non-fiction


everyone is more interested and entertained by, TikTok and Instagram and, social media everything that is kind of surface value, and doesn't really doesn't really


okay alright uh very good points I believe ya literature is a very is a a form of art definitely and however when it comes to art


there's a very big debate on whether it has any value at all and, so for, if I thinking about practical value , is very hard for anyone to make any money or or make their works have any value in the long run so unless you are a very published very important academic writer and author who has like


someone like JK rowling then maybe ya you can be a billionaire but most of the time literature doesn't really lead to big bucks and I would say , for the common person like someone with


very little to no background in writing I guess they would probably choose something like accounting or ya to be a lawyer or something you know something that isn't related to the arts


wait uh can I pause a while my things stopped recording


after I tapped the screen, oh my gosh


!whoa!


yes , , again very very good points ah , I believe in literature


ya the practical value definitely will uh go into all these journals academic journals and helping professionals in their line of work , but definitely when someone thinks of the word literature they will think shakespeare the first word they will think of is shakespeare or


any kind of uh artistic kind of writing, and the moment people think of art also they just link it up to having no value , so it takes authors and writers and poets like months and years of their work of their time to like publish their work and


yet it is the simplest form of entertainment, and mostly it is entertainment and like, , we can like rarely appreciate its value


in the like because of this so, uh, we don't really see the people don't really see the work that goes into it and there's really not much, chance and opportunity for them to even see this so like


ya do you have any points


(mmhmm), (mmhmm)


(mmhmm)


okay uh like you mentioned school I also recall the last time I ever learned about literature was


when I was it was how many it was seven, eight years ago probably can't remember so even that was, like a forced subject and we didn't actually have a choice but


, in the end it was in the end after it was like a forced subject we didn't get to choose it as an elective so even then, education didn't uh education system didn't see it as a as an important or practical


thing to learn and , because of that a lot of people have also moved on with their lives and like carried on to tertiary education nor yet without without this choice and only those who are extremely extremely passionate they ended up finding a way to take literature maybe in uni maybe majoring in it or might or like taking a minor


uh, but in the grand scheme of things I would say, literature as a subject is not very not prioritised like


it's just seen as a a tiny blip in a whole, world of, subjects is we have to is seen as a very small thing where you you don't it it's not important even though


might you might argue that it is very artistically important and it holds a lot of value to uh writers and people who enjoyed, reading just that in their, in a huge education system especially in singapore


where the arts is not very appreciated, I would say literature does still doesn't held whole enough value to be considered, practical because of, ya


singapore's context


right okay (hmm), I think I might I might be back tracking to one of my older points but ya you're right like people


you're right that it doesn't happen overnight like under understanding and and most people just want to, scheme through a piece like a paragraph and just be done with it and only like a select few will want to read into it and understand so again like I I mentioned earlier on like in the


age of technology and everything like people are people just people just want to be uh want convenience they want ease they do not want to


if if if it's shorter if it's in bullet points or the better but they don't really want to comprehend they don't want they don't want things to be comprehensive because too many words is too much so err it's not even young people like I mentioned that young people are are more into TikTok and social media and all that but it's also


to a huge extent is also all people, because they can be very set in their ways and very stubborn, especially when it comes to things that they are not used to so if you tell them to read something I I don't know if you've experienced this


but once you ask them to read something they get angry they say why can't you read it so it's like just simple yup, (mmhmm)


newspaper oh why because it's uh news that they want to read


, right


okay good point, (hmm)


ya oh is good ya, , (mmhmm)


right, (mmhmm), ya,


okay oh okay ya okay , okay uh, okay in conclusion I feel like we feel like I feel like literature is


is an art an art form definitely an art form and while it may not hold, much value to the common person it definitely it is everywhere like literature is everywhere it's in your writing it's in your comic books it's in your newspapers like you said just that


the value in it isn't always uh appreciated and I feel like people do not know where they would be if literature didn't exist


but for ya for now


!woo! okay okay good great great points uh, I agree that uh resources can be used can be better use sometimes but when it comes to heritage, heritage is like there are many different like definitions but one of it definitely the biggest one would be culture and I would say our culture is our roots and


the the core of who we are it's not, our heritage is not everything we are we are not we are not defined by, like our race or whatever we but we need to sometimes remember and appreciate how we got to this point and right now in singapore's context when we are we are we we are preserving those


uh those roots in heritage centres like the malay heritage centre indian heritage centre and chinese heritage centre and, when schools like in schools, and students are brought to this heritage centers for learning journeys every single student has to learn about every single heritage like


even if this class is made up of different races they all have to learn about all the the races in the heritage centres which I think is very important in a way because you get to see that the world is really bigger than all of us and it's bigger than you as a person


and it's important to see that see like we are all you know all like human beings and we are all, together in this fight, but, it's also important to learn about our differences and


not the bad differences just our cultural differences and and celebrations and celebrate those differences together and I guess education really starts in schools and are all these no heritage is yes carry on


okay , for the education point like thank you for making that point ah I I agree that, most of the most of the students do not maybe ya do they enjoy no


and do they have a choice most of time no but in this society and this very, very difficult uh, I would say tumultuous time in history, I feel like the youth really need to learn about


all these things and they need to see like, what's happening now in twenty twenty is going to make it into every history book you know and I feel like they are they are part of history right now and, if they learn about it now if they learn about their heritage about their friend's heritage about their parents' parents' parents' heritage


hopefully in the future when they have their own children they can, tell their children the right things and show them that you know this was a very bad time but I hope that uh, we learn from like I hope that we we I I hope that I make it better for you and I hope that I've learned from it enough to treat you better and treat you like an like a human being and what was the other point


ah ya okay so a lot of like you said a lot of heritage, sides cultural practices and heritage sites are slowly becoming defunct and, people are no longer following the norm


as much as, I would say the older generations try to save them and ya uh we are entering a new age uh a new a whole new era honestly right now where most people most if not all young people are


growing increasingly progressive I would say so they are fighting the old ways they're challenging the way, things are so, I really commend the people who are fighting but I'm also they are also holding on to their their true beliefs like like we have to know what we are fighting for deep down they are very deep seated and deep rooted


flaws in a lot of uh systems and everything so knowing, knowing where we are knowing learning about our heritage and our culture will really help the younger people in the long run in the future to know where where where they went wrong and hopefully they don't repeat it


ya yes,


(mmhmm)


, okay , how much of heritage okay , I would say ah most people definitely will start start off their history classes and in school in singapore they would start of learning about singapore's fishing port early days so they will definitely know all that but


I feel like honestly, ya it's true it's true that it's really rare for singaporean they uh they don't want to learn they're not interested in anything that's not related to them, but younger people I would say increasingly generation Z they are very different not all not all not not few but they're in they're interested in change in growth


they're interested in learning so in a way we are not following in our forefathers and our direct father's footsteps you know younger people are different, they're increasingly they're in their own way stubborn but they're also growing they're maturing they're developing I would say they're they never stopped growing unlike unlike a lot of adults who are already like like that like stuck so


and I know like I said also earlier ah it really starts at home so the younger people they will be parents someday some of them will be parents and they will be teaching their own children the right things and uh


I would say for singapore's history it's very I would say ya I I agree that the fishing port thing is uh also going a little bit defunct like uh we we get it we were fishing ports so


but we also need to know how did we get like who were the people who made this happen like will which but like like how which working class people like who were the, people like working from the ground up you know it's a and it's important to see that


we all have to start somewhere like for for singapore we started fishing port and coolies and fishermen and everything but it's important to use that as like a base point to see you know like we were once there and now we are here so where can we go from here


(hmm) okay, ya very very uh good point


uh I am very ya, you know I am sorry that you feel very lost and I I cannot begin to imagine or understand it like your disappointment, and we all know that our culture our our heritage doesn't make us who we are like our ah it's just it's just like our roots where we came from but


your history is just as important as everyone else's and I I I I I know where your I know what you're saying because people are really often left behind in the history books you know in our our, pages because ah some people


in every history book in every story there has to be one hero and one bad guy somehow and someone stories always taken out of context or uh not fully explained and that is really not fair so I would say ya society is progressing a lot


there is uh, there's a lot that's changed honestly so much has changed and everything is changing as we speak , but, I hope I believe it's a good change if we are right now definitely with like with all the technology around us we are documenting every single thing that's happening now and


this is also going to end up as heritage like whatever is happening today uh there is value in that because I'm I'm thinking if I ever become a parent like twenty years from now, that twenty ten years from now uh I'm going to show my children this like this is the full truth like everything that happened today is nothing it has to be erased like like you you you don't deserve to have any of your culture or your history or your


heritage erased but that's just how things ended up some time in the past but ya things have changed a lot and we have to be the changed for now causes ya


oh okay okay for, okay for museums, ya in singapore let's think of the the bigger more well known names would be uh national gallery uh singapore art museum uh


uh, and definitely the uh ArtScience museum, so in a way many of our museums are very tourists be tourists based like they're very focused on, get gaining uh tourism and ah


instagrammers okay oh so mostly I would say ah in singapore in singapore's context ah, singaporeans do love a good Instagram photo K so they usually go to museums for their photo ops and everything but, museums are where we get to really bask in the arts it's okay I will use that


word uh is a the atmosphere in the museum is a, you don't really you don't quite get there anywhere else and definitely as an art lover myself like uh I do enjoy going to museums but I understand I have been to museums with people who do not like museums and they're just there like why am I here


uh, can we go now ah can you have me take a picture of me with this a sculpture so it's it's very uh in singapore's context I would say, uh, honestly if most of our young people love taking their photos and uh pictures and social media posts here and posting them then why not you know like uh


it contributes to our economy because they are paying for tickets and ah especially for tourists who come all the way maybe for like uh travelling exhibitions, like you said ah for museums in the case of museums sometimes we have ah, very popular artist's works coming here like other it most famous one will be the #yayoi kusama# exhibition


so and that one came even I didn't go because even though I love art and my my friends who are art students they all love art we couldn't go because we knew it would be crowded and it was and the fact is people, pay to get into the paid exhibitions because they want to see they want to take pictures they want to post it on Instagram and in a way it contributes back to our economy even if ya even if uh investing in museums is not uh uh like might might be a liability I would say in the end it the returns are


double okay ya continue


, K I okay I agree to uh some extent that uh maybe like I understand why people will feel like too much funding is going into the arts when people don't appreciate it for what it's actually for and uh


in a bit of the opposition stance I'll have to say uh in singapore's context again like yes singapore is not that ready for a vibrant arts scene as much as we try to prove otherwise is true there are very uh, insurpassable


mostly unavoidable barriers like censorship that really strange the quality of all kinds of art so like our performance art shows our theatre plays even, visual art in museums have to be like rated have to be like check first before they're displayed you know that kind of thing so ah ya I mean in singapore unfortunately is that way right now but


and ya you're right like most millennials and young people they really ya they go there for pictures and everything and that's not what museums are for and the money can go, to healthcare but also I I know that ah a lot of these museums get grants and funding from the national arts council and these grants make sure that uh they need to make sure that they have programmes they have uh like free art days free uh


, what's that like travelling exhibitions and also uh like programmes programmes for the underprivileged for uh like art and also like art therapy sessions for children in like the in at national university hospital and everything so


even with all the funding that's going into them they have to make sure that they uh fulfill their criteria of getting this funding you know like if you you have to have these, programmes for children in shelters in like secret women's shelters and everything is like you have to make sure that what we give you has to go back to the community and go back to people it not not just like to bring home artifacts and everything


right (mmhmm)


okay (ppc) , okay you have ah very very good research quite thank you for sharing that, like ya like the


money going into the arts is actually substantial for such a small country you know but ah, meeting (ppc) one of our, ministers very recently our favourite lawrence Wong said that uh our healthcare system is like one of the best in the world already so uh I feel like definitely we are investing a lot in healthcare and I I think singapore's


strongest points will be tourism healthcare and tourist and healthcare, so but under tourism like the arts does play a part like you and like you said a lot of the high SES people enjoy the arts the most because they have


access to it and they can enjoy it and they can afford it, so I'm also, uh, so in a way I'm actually glad that uh arts organisations and uh museums and places are actually opening their doors more to more community programmes like like you said like you said art is for everyone and that's everyone deserves to enjoy it so


is a very very slow process but uh there are community programmes uh that are starting up everywhere and it is very slow and, you would you would you could argue that it's just for like for show you know like oh my my company is working with uh children from this community group so please give me a grant


but in a way is also these children that the people working with these children are giving them like experiences in the arts you know like even if it's just a drawing workshop or a, visit to the museum like for free like we we like bringing children from community groups to uh seeing to see theatre plays and everything it's


exposing them to the arts and hopefully instating a sort of love for the arts, inside them and and I would say, most of the funding going into uh arts places honestly it's to make sure that entry fees to museums are affordable for singaporeans and uh for permanent exhibitions most of them are free so like and like you said uh a lot of singaporeans don't want to go even if it's free


you know so ah, I would say ya is it a waste of money ah I would say ah art, is really everywhere it is everything and , ya our arts scene may have been hopeless ten years ago but things are changing and hopefully after this pandemic is over like people start going to our museums again


and ya you have anything here please


right


okay ya okay ah, ah, okay like you mentioned I don't think was this debate but you mentioned in singapore ya STEM science math everything engineering is really prioritised


like parents most parents I would say like they will encourage their children to study hard don't take music don't take art don't take literature like you mentioned earlier lah so most, so that's the reason why most people singaporeans I say like


most people artists they travel out of singapore to pursue their art degrees their practice and, the ones the ones who come back they definitely don't agree with how things are you know because they've been out like you said they would they've been out to the U the UK the US they've seen how it is then they want to bring that back but in singapore


singapore is trying to uh grow its arts scene but within barriers uh within boundaries and like I mentioned uh there's a lot of censorship as well, so like you said singapore okay singapore is trying their very best to grow the art scene but with a lot of


funding just that with censorship and everything it really does, uh, uh affect the quality of art that comes out because it's very careful is very curated it's , and ya yes it is a very very very slow process and you might get into trouble if you don't censor your work so ah there's this there's a theatre director mister #ong keng sen#


he used to helm the singapore international festival of the arts might it then eventually he left and I don't think he's come back, because he realised that every all his shows had to be vetted all his all the shows he brought to singapore had to be vetted some of them had to be cancelled because they were deemed to be inappropriate


no say so singapore's, funding it is as in is it an investment is it a very very big investment you are definitely a huge investment but with all the progressives in singapore right now


I think we are trying to make things work like we are we are we are trying to bring in more family friendly arts here first you know like their they are putting in so much money and effort because they want more programmes for children more community programmes or the underprivileged they want to


make sure everyone in singapore gets a chance to visit and gets to experience this but ya I mean I think it's a it's a very big investment that singapore is capable of making for now maybe before the pandemic now the money has to go to


pandemic okay ya so conclusion, you can conclude okay


okay so I have to disagree with that because although although if you see from a surface level where you said it has no value


I believe that literature gives people a voice an opinion and a desire because it's a stepping stone where they start to explore more meaning towards more than just words, so I feel that I strongly feel that I learning literature in school allows an individual to


to be able to broaden their perspective and and as they move on to uh further education or once they start working literature gives them , uh a wider range of knowledge and and they'll they're able to interpret interpret uh things on a broader level


okay can I carry on, okay so like what you said majority of the jobs are mainstream jobs where people tend to, go or or tend to , be be more inclined to uh to join occupations like ya


so uh <P2>nikita</P2> I'll continue where did I stop yes okay when you said about occupations right so yes there are mainstream occupations like like a lawyer or a doctor or or an engineer but, you have to understand that you choose a subject that people choose in school right so not everyone chooses literature as a subject I do have friends who just choose literature solely because they're passionate about it and I have friends who stayed away from literature because they know they can't


interpret language as as much as some other peers of theirs too and and they tend to choose subjects like principle, of accounts or or draw uh arts and craft right so, it really depends on each and every individual but I feel like it's wrong to say that that


it has no practical value as a subject because as as very similar to my first point it all stems from from how they interpret content and and it's not constricted you know it's it's it's very, broad because when they move on be it in their own fields be it as a doctor I'm sure they okay I'm just giving you an example a doctor does have ah a doctor has to read journal articles a lawyer has to read a lot of err law


related materials and and, it's it's it all comes down to how they interpret what they read right so these are just two examples on how literature does and hinder them and and doesn't ah like add value to them in the future but instead of helps them to better interpret what they are what they're excelling


I hope I I kind of answered ya


yes like what you said yes I I have to agree that when when I've been back particularly for me when I heard the literature I thought big big thick novels , which I have to highlight and and write a lot okay but I I believe that literature evolved a lot


from, over the centuries over different decades right I feel like, literature in the past used to, be very dry and it used to be a subject that that people just interpret for reading more or for for like what I said highlight on uh making highlight in in a particular book and trying to explain what the author has uh try to interpret or


explain what the author is discussing right but I feel that, , it has evolved so much today that it is, quite relevant and has a lot of value be it if you are in school be it if you are in the academic field or if you are solely just researching okay and and uh


for instance a literature review it's slightly different from literature as a subject but literature review I feel that I feel is very similar to literature , as a subject on how we take it right so in school we learn how to how to interpret interpret literature uh for me in uni you learn how to how to how to review a different sets of literature to to come to a conclusion or to have a summary and and


although I did not choose literature as a subject I wish I did because it would have helped me a lot now right so I feel like it's impossible to say that it has no practical value


I think I think as as what the statement stands for you view it as a subject alone right and and you say that literature as a is a subject that has no practical value and and I disagree with that and I fear that it does


have practical value, not immediately but it's delayed so you you don't reap what you sow instantly but it takes a period of time


for for you to to internalise the, the values of learning literature right and and I completely understand where you come from where you say it's a subject that is undervalued because I believe that it is I feel that it is undervalued and and I feel that it should hold a lot more weight than it is currently right it shouldn't just be an elective


or it shouldn't just be a subject that someone chooses to avoid another subject that you like but it is uh it goes further than that and and, uh yes so I would like to just reinstate another point of mine who I said people had said that that when you read too much into words


you you tend to to, exaggerate things right I mean I feel that's what I feel where I have seen some comments online where they said literature is a stepping stone for fake news and and a foundation for fake news because you read too much into someone's words


and I think and I disagree with whatever that I read online because I feel that it's not interpreting too much but it's about understanding what goes beyond those words what the depth of, the words right so ya I I feel that literature as a subject especially as a subject when someone is young has a lot of practical value maybe not instantly but after some period of time


ask okay so you said that when you ask them to read something they they become uh distant or they become a bit awkward right so ya irritated but why do you think people read the newspaper regularly


ya ya, okay so it's news that they want to read right so that news is written by someone right, and and that person needs to have some sense of


some sense of knowledge on on how to write materials that people want to read so they need to have some literature background right so I think this proves my point that literature is very important, don't you think so and and although although


can although people don't directly uh read the benefits of literature and and and they don't directly oh I learnt I have learnt literature and I'm going to see some value out of it they don't see it that way but they see it the other way where or they experience it another way where


where someone else who has literature knowledge provides them with content that they enjoy right so it's not direct but it's indirect, ya


ya I mean I mean I was just I I it just came across my mind, but like what you said I I kind of understand where you're coming from where where maybe in another context in a different country literature has a lot more meaning personally I've seen in european or western countries where where they