very long ago few hundred years ago because they invented a lot of things what I mean like leonardo da da vinci they come up with the da vinci code right I think a lot of things lah, like, da vinci is one of the resonance uh artist in


in that era lah I think one of the, I think, his sculpture ah his works ah is, kind of, a lot a lot valuable than than other mainstream or other other artists in his era or what lah so that's why


that's why uh it can be, bad in, in that sense like, once uh he he came out then have some bad criticism but along the way, this uh this piece of uh


art has gained, kind of different opinions along the way so, in, in terms of like changing of the, , times ah changing times and changing kind of history lah it will bring about like


different bad and good ah that means uh uh maybe in in in the year like uh twenty first century it will be bad, twentieth century will be good so it it kinds of, differs, every one hundred years something like that so differs between century or maybe uh differs between


ten or twenty years lah so, that's why , uh, ah that's all lah so , , I hand it over to you lah this uh #teck chuan#


okay uh maybe we can start the open debate now whereby we just uh, discuss about this uh topic then, in, kind of instantaneous, to and fro lah that means uh, uh have a live debate regarding this uh thing lah


so like talking about , that's why that's why I'm on the, uh proposition side lah that means I agree that there's no such thing as bad art, but you disagree, that uh that means you are you are you are on the on on on the opposition side lah


so that means, you disagree that there's uh no such thing as bad art so, what are your how to say what are your reasons uh for for this thinking lah


yeah lah I mean it it it comes down to another thing you know that means uh I I have these word in my mind that there's no such thing as bad luck you know, I don't know whether you heard about this uh this statement or not so it it it comes down to like there's no bad luck lah it's it's about how you handle a bad situation or what


sometimes sometimes people think that uh like bad luck uh this today I very bad luck lah but it's it's how you tackle the the bad situation leh, so that's uh I I'm also on the thinking that there's there's no bad luck one you know actually


it's it's about it's about how you handle the the unlucky situation you know, that means it it because of your decisions the decisions you make makes, you unlucky you know, that's why that's why that's why


go back to the topic there's no such thing as bad art that means it it can be badly painted, but, uh in a way that, it can come out, to be kind of uh uh uh


out of this world not the norm, so like I notice like picasso all these last time their their their works are are are, are are kind of normal or people maybe despise them there are a lot of uh uh uh uh uh


painters few hundred years ago they they have these kind of uh obstacles lah whereby uh uh uh they are very, poor they they don't they don't they don't have much income you know, then and they still continue what they are doing lah so so that's why


that's why I'm on this position that, it, is is the same as there's no such thing as bad luck ah, there's no such thing as bad bad art so any art I mean, it, it comes from a lot of point of view so uh this


like, people in two zero two zero might think, this is ugly, people in two zero five zero might think this is something special like what happens to uh uh all the painters like picasso like very abstract art so that's why that's why


that's why people a lot of people don't understand all this kind of stuff lah, but, of course this topic is kind of, Atas topic whereby, uh we need to really appreciate art to actually say a lot of things about, this uh bad art good art kind of style lah of course we have to have uh special knowledge


which, must be acquired along the way along life we have to attend maybe a lot of uh galleries or or somehow or rather to appreciate the art lah, so there's there's there's where I'm coming from lah


so uh I think I I I let you, uh and, how you want uh what's your opinion on your side lah


yah that's why that's why this uh bad, bad art bad luck, or or this good thing and bad thing so so uh like my point of view is actually there's no, there's there's no bad person or good person so we are talking about


because in this world there are, are, good people there are bad people, but my point of view is, uh they are labelled as bad people because of certain things they do, so like meaning to say that what if they repent


they they they will become good person again, so so that's why, uh uh uh sometimes people view bad art as, forever it's uh worthless or what, but kind of, maybe twenty thirty years later


this art will become valuable so that's why I am on this position that uh there's no bad art no bad luck because, it, it comes down to the the the era where we are you make the decision and


the era and and the person who is doing the, thinking that's why that's why, that's why uh, I have this position that there's no bad art, good art, bad luck good luck that's why that's why because we can turn things around lah that's that's what I think lah I mean we humans ah


can turn things around so uh like, meaning to say that I actually uh, think that humans can do a lot of things ah, because, in our evolution, I think


we are the most intelligent beings, on earth lah other than aliens ah, so that's why I I have to stand my point on this lah so I think I I read up my, my my my issue and uh, uh, we I I just uh pass you on the conclusion side lah


yours is one minute left


okay so uh as as for, as I'm, I'm on uh on uh uh how to say negative side on this uh theatre dance and music issue, which is uh because in singapore, okay let's talk about I think we have to cover uh about the government issues


about the government issues whereby , things that are actually uh uh, not making money that means uh last time lah last time used to be like the the government things that are not making, money so uh uh uh we shouldn't be engaging in all this


like maybe, talking about uh, , develop our own kind of dance academy or or some kind or rather like, what, the the koreans are doing, so that's why that's why uh we don't have much activity in this sense like


like, all these ah what singapore idol last last time they used to like, have, organise all these thing then, it dies down everything, so like, talking about pop music then talking about theatre theatre is another sector whereby uh it's kind of on a decline


so uh talking about the arts so, that's that's another issue theatre theatre not not not a lot of people go and see you know, so and and also the ticket prices are are are on the high side, so that's why


but, uh there is a lot more that they should be doing lah if they're they were to uh uh get us engaged on this


this uh theatre dance music kind of uh this sector which we are really lack in, having this creative sense ah, so we have to be creative lah I mean uh, things like theatre dance music kind of stuff we have to be creative but


we are not having that creativity, so because, maybe last time we used to uh concentrate too much on our academics, grades all these that's why, uh not much people is on the arts side what so because uh they think that it's not earning money their parents will will will will will disallow them to to to continue this this path


so that's why , I'm on this uh uh uh uh opposition side regarding this uh theater, issues lah because, uh it have to comes down from the government leading the way


and because we have, we we have to have the funds we have to have the the capital in doing this, overhaul thing lah to to let it be like, broadway like london


or or or be it like pop music korea stuff, uh uh uh US pop music because like singapore pop is going nowhere you know that means, like, it's kind of uh uh nobody dare to actually become a singer uh become a pop star all this because it's really not


people is not paying attention and and and I believe that the government should lead the way in in this issue lah, so I I have to uh uh get, your side uh the input lah #teck chuan# uh on on your, I have to hear more from your side uh regarding


uh your your this uh, why you agree that uh they they appreciate, the the singaporeans appreciate I mean, can you give me like reasons like uh few more reasons that uh convince me that the this this uh there's an appreciation on on the singaporean side lah


that's why okay uh as, as for like what, I mean like , they come up with an album all these and the album is not not selling you know


so even if they put on online nobody is buying so it has become like uh because, right now is a internet era whereby, album sales are not moving everything it have become online you know, so even theatre it kinds of go online if it goes online


line, nobody is buying tickets to the real show I think they cannot survive you know so maybe this COVID nineteen, I I I I believe that this, COVID nineteen actually exacerbates everything you know that means make it worse you know makes it makes everything worse you know


especially in theatre dance music everything worse what no live performance, uh no live theatre everything comes online so, there's no revenue you know basically no revenue when when when you have to perform online what, there are no ticket sales what so so


it it it have to be on a decline, so that that that means we are we are we are still very very how to say, uh we we are in the worse off state than before lah if we are to really go, go inside this theatre dance music this kind of category lah


we we really have to rethink our priorities after this COVID nineteen we have to we have, to remind our I mean we we have to, uh uh reset everything to, to to what it was, uh uh uh maybe ten years before and and really


get on with uh uh new, kind of, new new thinking lah I I don't know how it will be like lah online ah theatre online eh, nobody is buying tickets what so, how, how the theatre is how they are performing arts online, not


not a possibility what because so that's why, that's why I mean, I I I I I see a a kind of a dead end to this category lah I mean, talking about karaoke talking about


night life talking about life, music everything is stopped you know everything has become zero you know, is not, low activity is no activity you know basically no activity in this category you know now right now


so so it has become, worse lah a lot worse than before, uh of course, it it wouldn't be uh it wouldn't recover I I can see that it wouldn't recover in the next five years, it has to be like


maybe two three years later whereby the crowds are coming back to live music, to to to buying tickets to to to live theatre to appreciate the arts lah so, I I can see that it it will be some time uh a few years down whereby


uh all these all these arts people all these uh live music people they, they have to go and change their job scope you know, because it's not really feasible to carry on like, that you know


so I I I have to end here and uh I uh I need to hear some input from #teck chuan# regarding , uh why she why he appreciate, at at this uh at at this moment why uh


he thinks that it's still appreciative lah of this uh theatre dance music thing


yeah so like coming out from this uh like this uh, uh uh uh arts scene, and also the pop scene, it it kinds of like uh it, we we have to survive, because it's this uh uh like before COVID


they are really barely surviving, uh, after COVID I think it's worse you know, so like I think, I think they have to make a decision, to change their job scope you know, it it has become like that you know I mean is very very rude to say that


for those people who appreciate uh uh the art scene, but, they have to make this kind of decision which, I, I think the government is, leading the way, they're they're asking the the the nightlife to close down already basically


uh to to change their job scope you know like zouk, Zouk is, it it has it has become a restaurant you know I can't believe it I I saw the news, ah, they they are going to dining you know, because, there's no there's no


live dance live music don't have the, night life is gone you know it's completely gone you know and it wouldn't be up, up, after a few years two three years later, I think two three years later still, still have to attract the crowds coming in you know the crowds are having phobia you know


that's that's why, why like analyse like uh the, even if it reopens ah it will take some time for the, singaporeans to warm up to all these things all over again you know, so so I estimate that, it needs like two three years at least ah


to to have the, the new normal so, they're, the government is talking about the new normal, so it it wouldn't be back to the new normal I I I also agree, on them this part, there wouldn't be a new normal that means this this


that means things that, uh you used to be doing you have to have a change mindset like you used to be uh if you used to be in the art scene you used to be in the theatre studies you really have to rethink what you are doing already because, uh unless


you have a very very deep pocket to to to actually uh uh have no income for five years something like that, because, I really suspect that uh this virus is going off you know it's not going to go off, what I see is is going to mutate is going to come up again


ah I think china is going to come up not say come up lah I mean china is, uh uh uh uh uh uh uh, uh, conducting a lot of experiments on viruses you know so you you you you can see you know, so it's from day one they have already been doing it and they're not


careful about it ah that's why, the the the virus leak from the lab, what, I know it's unintentional but, it it kinds of this, uh uh lead to this kind of a, situation which is uh affects all walks of life, life and, and all societies you know nobody is spared


you know, nobody is spared from this uh this this careless mistake, by by by this uh, uh uh uh this COVID nineteen, so it shouldn't it shouldn't leak out you know it in the first place it shouldn't it shouldn't leak out and it should be contained in Wuhan or it should be contain


contained there you know it's it's, what I agree with the US people lah they they say that it, it, I I always hear them saying that it should be contained yah, true, it should be contained in their country they shouldn't have uh uh let, people out when


they are they are stopping travel within china and they're not stopping travel, out of china that means you can at at that point of time, last time ah the during the outbreak ah uh during the initial outbreak, they stopped people from travelling out of


wu han, to other cities you know but they allow people to travel, from wu han to other countries you know, so you see this point ah I was surprised, surprised that it happens, these kind of things happen you know, and it leads to a lot of things ah like what we're discussing now lah so so I think I have to end on my part so I have to let you have the mike again


yeah for for for for singaporeans of course is they're on they're on the good side because everything is free what everything is free everything is online everything is free they're, they don't need to purchase tickets to go and see the all the concert because now everybody is uh uh having this online concert everything you see all these pop stars


having online concert so we we no need to pay tickets already you know basically so of course singaporeans will appreciate from the side but on on on on the issue of the performers all these ah they are getting nowhere you know so they are not earning they are not earning enough to, cover


their expenses you know because everything is online everything is free you know so that's the thing lah so I think we have to end here lah


uh debate topic three, okay so I do not like to add on uh this uh, actually arts ah is a kind of, ya it's a it's a luxury you know


because those that visit, it has become like very Atas kind of style you know, uh because arts is, seems to people like very high class all these so so I'm on the side whereby it's not a necessity of course what is is is a luxury thing is is not a need you know


is is you you don't need arts, to to to to carry on your life you know, so it's it's it's not a a a need basis you know so you you don't you don't you don't need it what so it's not a necessity lah of course so, of course, it's a luxury because


everything is so expensive in the arts world, talking about paintings talking about sculptures, talking about everything that, revolves around creative sense, it kinds of, uh uh uh uh uh become more expensive kind of stuff it it has become this this kind of a view point whereby uh uh uh all these paintings which


everytime go down of a few million, or or or or some sculptures some leonardo da vinci michelangelo sculptures is kind of, uh uh uh uh so valuable that uh uh uh nobody's, it it's it's not on sale what it's it's in the museum what so so


so it has become very very high end, kind of stuff is like branded goods already you know, because you can see that arts is kind of, uh unattainable you know, that means you don't you don't know how to appreciate arts that means you are kind of a lower class you know to to to to a lot of people you know so you know how to appreciate a painting


if it has become that, you you are very rich, or or you go to gallery often you go to auction often you you go to uh you have a you you you you are you are, appreciative of paintings or sculptures it has become like you are very Atas you very high


class, so it has become this kind of uh mentality whereby uh uh uh people have this kind of a view lah, so that means like uh uh of course this is a very kind of uh, uh uh uh uh


how to say ah you you very difficult to mix into this group you it it it is same as, as, the high society and the normal society that means you want to go to the high society is very difficult to go in what of course you have to appreciate arts in the first place you have to have knowledge of the paintings ah everything so that you can hold a conversation with people like them lah which is which they are usually very rich of course


because all these things are very expensive, because it's not it it it it, it it doesn't it it doesn't uh uh have the same price tag as a a a normal kind of appliance or what their their price tag is way above a lot so it has become it has cater to a very


privileged few you know, and it has become like, normal people who want to appreciate who want to get into this art scene it's uh kind of, you can't get into it unless, you have, the circle of friends you have the environment


then you can get in touch, of, arts or paintings or this kind of uh stuff you know, so if if you are a normal, normal, person a layman person, a normal person in the society, you are not able to even touch it you know


it it it it has become like, it it kind of very very distant, so that's why a lot of, a lot of people don't know how to appreciate arts, it's, it's because it has become unattainable already that means you want to get close to it, but


you you can't you know it's because of status problem what so so like, people in the high society would would despise you what, will they !hey! you you know how to appreciate or not ah you don't know then why you are here, uh it has become like uh uh I shouldn't be here kind of stuff if you're here you you you must have you you you must be rich you must be able to afford it you you can't be you can't be here


to see only you you must you you you must be rich you must be able to afford it then then you can come and discuss about it, it has become like that you know so so that's why I'm of the view is like that lah so I I I pass it to take #teck chuan# lah


yeah so uh talking about this access to the arts so, it it, it has become uh a luxury to actually step into this , uh auction house, step into this


uh museum, it has it has become kind of, because our ticket prices are not, cheap you know, so I talking about the the louvre uh uh uh uh museum in france, !wah! the tickets are not cheap you know


it has become it it has become, kind of, uh you can't access it already you know it it has really really growing very very distant to a normal person already, correct so so, it has become like, it it I I go back to the to the thing lah you you uh uh people


it has become a high class high society environment already, it has become this this has gone, but of course the government is doing a lot to to get people involved in the arts scene lah, but, uh as you see COVID nineteen is actually changing a lot of things lah they use


to be uh uh uh getting uh uh uh in line that means uh, people, tell people to be more creative, kind of stuff lah of course, uh because uh arts is more on, creativity which we are lacking we we singaporeans are lacking in creativity because uh we used to go on academic


route because we are too in we are we are too much into that academic road and right now we are we we want we want to change tech we want to change to to to to more on the creativity side, that means we we we must have time we must have the capital we must have the environment everything


to do uh uh kind of a overhaul if we were to to, go this way but of course there there must be live performances all these arts is about live performances, live painting live uh workshop everything have to


to, have the income to, to to have this, kind of uh


uh uh uh uh to get in this field what, so so that's why we would rather stick to an economics degree or or, finance degree rather than pursuing an arts degree, uh


so so that's why that's why but I I know that during these few years it's changing already lah, uh because they are they want to shift away from the academic route what so so that that's that's what they are doing lah they they wanted to be on the creativity side because


a lot of uh uh how to say people around the world say that uh singapore is not creative, uh they are not creative they are not creative enough, so that's why the government have to led lead the way in having a having an environment create that environment


uh uh uh uh after, all these lost years lah because we we we we we now we are catching follow following up we are we are good in academic area but we are very bad in creativity area which we have to, uh uh have a lot of time have a lot of


capital invest into this to to make it work to make to make singaporeans uh, get into the art scene lah so I think I I I leave it to


yeah so talking about this , like it it always like, if you are talking about national gallery you're talking about singapore it's it's not that of an of of an of a luxury what


because uh, a lot of world famous things are not there, it's it's in france it's in it's in all the museums around the world the new york museum all these, so so that's why that's why it's another category whereby it


it kinds of like uh uh uh, you you have to pay to get in you have to you have to pay to be in this society you have to you have to have some money, to to actually get a chance to appreciate all these things and


maybe, uh learn the ropes from people in the industry you know, because you you you can't get it any other way what, , internet don't teach you how to appreciate arts, how to appreciate a sculpture how to appreciate a painting


all these things you you you can learn from the net, you know all these things, you must learn from your behaviour how you going to get into this society to get into this, thing you know, so so I mean it's not a necessity


of course it's just that, if you are rich if you if you you you are interested in in arts


the the the the the, the friends you don't have that environment, uh it's you, you you you shouldn't be there lah in the first place you shouldn't be there, so so so so that's why that's why, I I agree that uh uh I I I think lah


think that is not a necessity of course it's not a necessity whereby, uh you don't need it it's it's it's it's, it's not it's, it's a want it's not a need you know you don't you you you you won't you you won't, you won't, die without all these things you know, but


but you need food on the table that's the that's the issue lah, so , , coming from that that means, it it, it only only only the strongest and the richest survive ah, of course the arts scene


will kill a lot of people because of COVID nineteen of course every industry will be killed, only the richest are able to, sustain are able to ride out over over this bad wave are able to ride out over this bad times


is, it's about how deep your pocket is ah, so it has it has become the society has become like that that means if your pockets are deep enough you are able to get through over it, and because when uh like


when there are d uh actually I I I I I quote from uh a a chinese word lah uh <mandarin>危机就是转机:wei ji jiu shi zhuan ji</mandarin> mah you you understand in difficult times you see opportunities you know this this how people get rich what that's how people, uh uh uh they they invest on bad assets


and by the time, the economy is good, that, that asset increases in price, that's how they that's that's how they turn around that's how they become rich, and the rich become richer and the poor becomes poorer because


uh uh the poor is keep on having this poverty cycle what you can't get out of the poverty cycle unless our government were to step in, and, and it has become like that like this COVID nineteen has, has, has make everything worse you know everything is worse you know, so


so you have to have a very very, strong mind to actually uh uh uh uh, think, differently and also, uh uh have to have, have to have your priorities right if if let's say now's not the time to actually spend a lot on all these paintings


we better uh uh uh uh, do some charity lah it's not a necessity what correct or not so you shouldn't be spending money on all these expensive paintings or going to the auction house, to to to to bid for all these thing your money should be helping people who is in need in


in terms of COVID nineteen in terms of uh uh uh all these issues you know, so there must be a channel in comes in in terms of this, uh this money flowing you know, so so that's why uh uh uh all these people they have to, to have uh how to say


their thinking must be, aligned to a more charitable cause lah rather than, uh spending money on these uh, paintings or or or or the art scene which is very very expensive lah, of what what my point of view is so uh


okay so actually it it it goes down


to uh uh how to say you you you can afford or not you can afford to have, this luxury because it's it's always labelled as luxurious, all these uh


michelangelo picasso, all these things there are labelled as very expensive, all these antique watches, they are very expensive, it's always on the high, high end side and and


you see all these uh hourglass all these, ah that's why it's it's always on the high end side you know you understand so so that's that's the that's the way that that that it goes you know this society is is is, is having this mindset whereby


uh uh uh the arts is always luxurious is always high end, is never is never to the masses so I think I end here lah


give me a moment, okay so for me right what does environmental conservation means so actually it means basically means protecting our environment and using it sustainably environment conservation can involve actively protecting habitats such as the rain forest finding sustainable way to live on this planet increasing biodiversity


improving recycling facilities and basically working with a natural world rather than in opposition to it


most people, and countries so as you mentioned before like , give me a moment, as you mention before in like country level like paris had agreement uh introduced in UN country many countries didn't fulfill what they promised to promote green green environment


and it's all talk but no action as well as introducing carbon tax but it's introduced at a uh too low rates so isn't very effective towards companies and organisation that is produce that is producing carbon emission


despite that environment isn't just about carbon emission isn't about just like, green environment it also consists of


animal conservation like because okay the importance of wildlife also like many people just assume that, animal conservation is considered important because of our love for animal but actually there is more to it lah such as promoting healthy ecosystem animal plants and human lives are all in a very fine balance if there is a shift in the ecosystem this will affect the survival of other


parts of the, secondly uh to promote medical values of plant humans us still uses aloe vera cucumbers mint leaves to relief uh indigestion so the natural world is full of medical assistant many of the medicines that we use such as aspirin vaseline and morphine are derived


from plants, for agriculture and farming bees farm insects are all essential in the farming industry to help coordinate fruits and vegetables which we all rely on here's an amazing fact for you lah ninety percent of the world apple crop is dependant on honey bee pollination


so what is the world doing to help promote conservation, government NGOs and individual around the globe are pulling together to promote conservation work these conservation initiatives are helping to change the fact of our the fate of our planet one small step at a time and we hope that many actually will agree and help these help to flourish it lah


so such a an example is china example china they are actually in nineteen ninety eight eh in nineteen ninety eight actually they suffered brutal serious flooding causing many areas live of err many forest deforest, stop deforestation in two thousand and and two ah


but what china did actually they has achieve this astonishing result through banning logging in many areas and by paying farmers to plant trees instead of earning a living by cutting down the trees for


trees for wood, national parks actually covers ten percent of the earth land so actually they actually help to increase carbon dioxide production which it's essential in


I correct myself oxygen, I mentioned earlier err animals also play a huge part in our environment


like uh okay then actually there are many uh animals that are going extinct extinct but actually humans are, trying to breed them again trying to ensure that they are not, they are they won't go extinct so such uh such as an example is the american bison the southern white rhino


and the, the golden lion tamarind monkey


okay so you actually uh you mention okay first of all I'll say about the thing about regarding human destroying


environment environmental animal extinct but actually I would say that what's done is done we are humans and, we do make mistakes on the bright side is we are trying to fix our mistake even though


it might not be a lot, but I I believe that little effort is better than no effort regarding that lah okay secondly you mention about the corporate world is all about maximising profits which I agree but then when you mention about the adopt green policies to it helps to perform better and actually they are just pretending they


care about environment I think it's it might be true it might not be true, uh I would say that ya yes actually corporate world they want to earn money they want to increase their profits cut costs they of course that's what the business is all about


but again, I will give examples such as uh china for economic incentives right actually they they implemented pollute pollution levy fee non-compliance fee discharge permit system sulphur emission fee subsidy for energy saving products regulation on


refuse credit to high polluting firms so actually they they they also did like cleanup campaign environmental awareness campaign air pollution indexes to show the public and they also through their water quality


to the public as well so yes companies might be just pretending but like I say little effort is better than no effort even they might be, they might be pretending that they are actually adopting green policies they care about the environment but while they are pretending they are actually doing I would say certain efforts to increase or to improve the environment


that's all


okay regarding the COVID right oh shit uh do I have to stop okay, for the AMR app is it


part two debate topic two


okay uh can begin ah, okay so


so should poorer countries address environmental issues when the basic needs of the people are not being met, so first of all why environmental qualities is poorer in developed developing countries


so poor environmental qualities is an inescapable present in many developing countries the poorer countries this pollution can lead to sickness or shorten lifespan the health effect of pollution can also lead to low productivity and higher health, care cost yet in spite the the high cost of pollution there generally low costs low level of investment improvement to environment quality in developing countries so actually why this is the this the central question of an emerging


economics field at the intersection of environment and development economics, you can't properly analyse and answer questions about environmental quality in developing countries with the tools of environmental or development economics alone


first of all to lay out the simple truth when people are poor, what little money they have frequently goes towards immediate consumption so in many instance the immediate need to put food on the table outweighed eh outweighs all the benefits in an individual could get from effort to reduce pollution


this is because these benefits are usually delayed and they also are shared by others the environment is a good part is a is a public good is also important because the benefits of higher consumption are large and immediate when you have next to nothing


so ya oh you can continue you can continue


it might be a cycle that richer countries go to poorer countries to develop to build, companies warehouses factories because of cheaper labors cheaper materials but


if it's a cycle that , how do I say this that might be true or it might not be true because I'm pretty sure every country in the world they have factories they have


companies that produces, CO two that, might, pollute the water, yes it might be higher chance that okay there might be more companies in or factories in


the topic is about should poorer countries address environmental issues when the basic needs of their own people are not being met


basic needs uh such as food lodging maybe health health care


for my side I'll I'll think that human humans first nature is always to survive the survival instinct human always address their own needs first you can say that human being are being selfish but


if their own needs are not met I'm pretty sure that they wouldn't think about the environment, yes there might be fine there might might be funds from the world to help developing countries to counter environmental issue


but again like I mentioned before if they do not have the basic needs they have they need they needed like food and all would they be encourage would they have the would they want


to, to work towards, and solving the environmental issues I ask you a question why is there climate change why are there so many environmental issues, is because of


a world a world that has better technologies better health care and all


yes because


yes the poorer countries will have to take on


yes correct but I I I mention that I mention that human beings are selfish the government are the richer I would say they they are the richer people in that poorer country they're selfish they want to have more gains so the thing is why would they okay a government job is


supposed to help the people to have a better life and all but, again they they are selfish they want to have more fundings from other countries and by doing like by allowing other countries entering their countries to invest to build factories that might cost more CO two emission


they are actually getting more fundings and money that they believe they could use the money to maybe develop the country, at a at a slower pace I agree that poorer country have, to


take a part that they also in like produces or causes environmental issue but again I'll say the richer countries are mainly the cause that, that affects the climate change because


the richer country are the one that want to develop they are the one who would want to deforest deforest the the area to build buildings structures they are the one who are that is destroying the the world


in richer countries people tend to drive which increase the CO two emission other let me think if if in a poor country do they have, the ability to own a car they might not or most of the people wouldn't have the ability to own a car they wouldn't have more they would they would have lesser chance in creating such issues in the environment


yes but they belong to a certain countries


they operate worldwide but they come from the rich country


part three debate topic three


I wouldn't say that I wouldn't say the real I wouldn't say that the real heroes of environmentalism are rebels because other than the people that you suggested there are the governments are doing their part in


making the environment better other than the government there actually there are few people there are actually lots of people that is contributing such as bill gates, so actually bill gates I wouldn't say I definitely he's not a rebel in this case because everyone know who is he and actually to stop the planet from getting substantially


warmer actually he worked with alongside with #ban ki moon#, they launched the global commission on adaptation to bring experts and citizens together to discuss solutions to climate changes, bill gates also bill gates also spearheaded an investment fund putting one billion dollar into clean energy start ups


and he stresses that while electricity is the largest source of fossil fuel environmental effort must also tackle agriculture manufacturing transportation building and other activity which accounts for seventy five percent of emission


another example is michael bloomberg the former mayor of new york that has passion for finding solution to seemingly intractable problems and in the years after overseeing the world wealthiest city new york


he's been focused primarily primarily on climate change he was involved in the paris climate agreement funded, the environmental group C four zero, and he has donated tens of millions to cities and environmental groups so actually he also announced fifteen million investment in the paris climate to account for the US withdrawal from the pact that they earlier agree on


there are many other example or , people powerful people in the environment such as leonardo dicaprio


christina Figueres and , alexandra Ocasio-Cortez so actually if you really read up actually many people are doing their part in this including the government as well


so you are saying like oh actually I have a question are they heroes are they not heroes is bill gates for my example is bill gates not a hero putting so much funding


and effort to gather people to be the one leading them, towards resolving this issue, so a hero


from Wikipedia is a is a person who is admired for their courage outstanding achievements or noble qualities


I didn't say everyone is hero, I didn't say everyone's hero I'm saying those people that example I give


so is bill gates not special enough his effort in, fighting against fighting against the environment issue


not all heroes not all heroes like to like let everyone know what they do not everyone like likes people to know what they does


yes they have started they have started, rebelling towards against the government against the society regarding, this issue but the thing is how much can they do how much, are their, effort


so was it or was it was it recognised


but how much ya so how much did they do


so what's so outstanding about their achievement, but they ya but they didn't influence a lot at that time, then how do you know they did ya everything start small


but, if they they didn't they didn't have any outstanding achievement within that people they wouldn't be admired, which is how many years after that


I would still wouldn't call them hero because like I said, at least from my point of view that they do not have any outstanding achievements unlike, the people that I mention such as bill gates that actually brought people together and I'm pretty sure he brought much more people together in fighting against the environment climate changes


and and definitely he didn't rebel against anyone, he didn't fight against the government or or rebel against them he did ya I I understand but I I saying that yes correct correct but then his effort made a big change


but you you can't call them rebels they are just trying to like progress what you said earlier on human being are just trying to progress trying to be better providing better healthcare providing better lifestyle for everyone so isn't a rebel towards it


no you read, sorry ah your information is quite outdated because electric car actually proved to be faster, then normal car if you really go and search there is the fastest wait the fastest car the fastest car in the world the fastest car in the world is the bugatti but the thing is there are many electric car that actually beats the fastest car that uses petrol already


we are slowly ya but we're slowly progressing towards it, ya because it's a change no there is there is trying to change there is a charging station everywhere in all the multi storey carpark


you go and, see you can go check you can go and check you can go check our house multi-storey carpark there's actually four ports there are actually four ports that charges car the blue car blue SG so you are trying to say that no there is many charging ports in the world in singapore especially


yes it is not in a uh you know that singapore singapore eventually going to phase out all the petrol cars, yes it will take time they wouldn't yes it will take a very long time because it change changes takes times changes takes time progress takes time


uh electric car actually is cheaper overall costs is cheaper overall costs is cheaper


it is more cheaper overall monthly it'll monthly it'll be more expensive I agree but overall it'll be cheaper


okay I'll quote an article from the times from the UK electric cars are cheaper to run than petrol and diesel even after higher purchase prices have affected it according to a research


so lower lower level of tax purchase subsidies and the absence of petrol or diesel fuel costs means that electric car were more cost effective over four years and above price is of after four years


ya so the the car will be ten years ten years at least ten years yes after ten years so the thing is after four years right actually you will actually way cheaper say again


part one debate topic one


okay environmental conservation efforts today are nothing more than token gesture so what is token gesture or another term tokenism is when you actually do something small or symbolic for a particular thing, and because we are talking about environmental conservation efforts right uh we'll look at on environmental conservations which is to protect natural environment and this is done by everybody playing a part through individual organisation and government


so for the first, point why I think that the today's efforts in environmental protecting protectionism is actually token gesture I would think that on the country level we look at the paris agreement which is


covered by hundred and signed by a hundred and ninety five countries and then it was actually introduced during the united nations framework conversation convention on climate change, so this is where different countries come together and then they sign a


pact where they say that they will lower, CO two emission or greenhouse gases emission, and they will set a target and a certain timeline or time frame so that to meet that target but there is also like since the enaction of the paris agreement until now there is actually a lot of countries that are actually failing to meet their set goals


like they say they want to reduce, carbon emission and all those but then they didn't they are not on track to meet their goals and by the deadline that they have set, so this is why I say that uh it's just tokenism it's just for show like you you just look good because you appear newspaper and then it will show everyone that oh your country is trying to do efforts uh putting in efforts into green environment and all those but then


they are they are not actually doing it so there is no action but all talk, then another point I think is that on the country level they actually introduce carbon tax, like a lot of countries actually introduce carbon tax even singapore we have one in twenty nineteen


where actually uh according to the NEA website uh companies that are falling under a certain category will be charged five dollar per tonne of greenhouse gas emission from twenty nineteen to twenty twenty three however there is a question that carbon tax is actually too low


for it to actually, result in any impact or for it to deter companies or organisation to actually reduce their carbon emission it's like a penalty for them but it's too low to actually play any part or efforts or if there is no result out of this and countries


that actually implement these , according to the paris agreement they they actually said that oh they gonna do it , introduce a carbon tax of forty dollar to eighty dollar per tonne by twenty twenty and fifty dollar to hundred dollar per tonne for twenty thirty however as you a lot of countries did not even meet this basic minimum that they say that they're going to set even in singapore the five dollar is way below


the forty to eighty dollar tonne that was actually discussed during the paris agreement so this another point that I think that actually is just tokenism it's just to show the world that you are trying to do something but introducing


measures that are not effective at all, ya and then another thing is that all of the top four emitters which is china india US and russia , who they are the collectively they actually represent half of the carbon emission they actually don't have national carbon pricing programmes


although china is going to implement one in twenty twenty for the emission trading system so therefore I say that uh it's actually tokenism that's on the country level, and then there's another thing is that most countries actually have subsidise or subsidies or policies


that actually makes it easier for corporate organisation to extract produce and consume hydrocarbon according to IMF the global pre-tax and post-tax fossil fuel subsidies in twenty seventeen amounted to two hundred and ninety six billion and five point two trillion and then


this is like so much as compared to the global, renewable energy subsidies amount of hundred and forty billion in twenty sixteen you can see that the disparity in the amount is actually a lot and when some government actually introduced measures to remove these subsidies uh actually resulted in riots


and people going onto streets and protesting such movements, for example there is this ecuador case where actually the government lifted the subsidies on the fossil fuel and then it resulted in diesel price rising two times overnight and petrol price rising by a quarter


which resulted in huge riots and the government had to reinstate all of these subsidies, subsequently like a few days later there's also the yellow vest protests in france where there's actually tax hike on diesel and resulted in violent crash and riots so that's on the country level where I think tokenism is actually


like everybody display tokenism when they actually look at environmental issues or environmental conservative efforts ya, maybe gabriel you would like to go, on next


okay , I guess that's uh you're done on your part so I agree with what you say like there is, other parts of the environment that we should look at like animal conservation and


uh you also mention about the forests, ya but we should think like this firstly what who resulted or what made it result in animal going extinct it's because of human going into the forest cutting down the forests damaging and destroying their ecosystem and their environment where these animal lives


see so we actually created this problem and then now we are trying to solve the problem that we created in the first place but first on one point we didn't actually solve it yet we're still trying to solve, so I understand what you are trying to say but


on my part this is what I think we're not doing enough to save the environment and is too little to actually make up for all the damages or repair all the damage that we have done since the beginning of time or since the industrial revolution


ya so my second point is that other than looking at the country what I will second point to look at we'll be looking at organisation and corporate world, as both you and I know that corporate world what what is actually in every boss mind is to maximise profit


so the only reason the companies wants to actually adopt green processes or to show that they are green is because there are studies that show that green companies that are actually adopt more green policies or are more green


uh actually perform better or have better results at the end of the day this is the only reason why they are actually going into or pretending to actually care about the environment so, under the corporate side right we have okay we have sustainability reporting but sustainability reporting is actually not compulsory in a lot of countries it's not compulsory in singapore either


so that is just the reporting to show the customer or to their external stakeholders so second point and this is the serious issue on organisation and, when they talk about the environment is green washing what they do is they actually pretend or they actually advertise or market their product and say that they are green


or they are protecting the environment and their product is actually portray as actually uh environmentally friendly but in essence they are actually not, like you have the Volkswagen case and the BMW where they actually uh have the clean diesel auto they actually manipulated and rig their clean diesel with devices to cheat the emissions


there's also like another case that we should uh all of us are actually more familiar with is like the seaworld in australia uh they seaweed australia used to actually uh have those killer whale shows and all those, and then uh seaworld say that okay they are actually uh


environmentally saving the earth and that's why they are keeping all these animal there but actually scrutiny have actually uh people have scrutinise their treatment of the animals there so actually, on the corporate side they are actually still pretending to be environmentally friendly but in actual fact some of the corporate corporations are actually not doing that they are just pretending to do so


ya so what are your thoughts on this


so you mention that certain efforts is actually better than nothing but is is it too little that is the question of the day is it too little like, if the country or the organisation level it is too little


then at the end of the day what are we saving we're not saving anything we're just slowing down to our destruction that's all, just slowing down we're not saving so anyway the last point that I'd like to put across to you is that, uh is on individual level like you and me we have earth day we have ride your bike to work day those days are actually like just symbolic on that day we pretend to save the earth we off the light for one night


but on other days we are just using electricity and all those without actually saving so, if at the end of the day individually we also do it as a token we just pretend that we are just doing saving the earth like we have certain days where we allocated to save the earth


and on other days we just live life as per normal then in this way then won't you say that environmental conservation efforts are nothing more than token gesture it's just for us to, resume resolve our guilts and just let us feel better


but we're not actually really doing anything at the end of the day, and then now we talk about the COVID nineteen case where you see you and me both of us or all of us we probably just call GrabFood and ask for delivery and all the delivery actually most of them come in container


plastic container that sometimes we just one off use I mean we can ask to don't have cutleries but we still have the packaging of the food that comes with a delivery you see, so are we really saving the earth


part two debate topic two


maybe I can carry on, ya you ya, you were saying in your point before that actually in many, instances the immediate need to put food on the table outweighs all the benefit any individual could get from efforts to reduce pollution and because these benefits are usually delayed and because their share with everyone everyone thinks that everyone else will be doing the environment issues will address environmental issues so they can just sit here and don't do anything right


and wait for someone else to act, okay (ppc) understand your point on this but okay, let's say hor this topic okay poor countries right they should they address environmental issues as you said earlier


everybody is just waiting for everyone else to do this but they have to understand that this world we are all living in this world there's only one earth everyone is living in it regardless of whether you are richer country or poorer country or more developed or less developed everybody is living in one earth


one world so everybody have to play a part regardless of whether you are richer poorer more developed or less developed, see, so actually why don't you think about environment issues in this way the poor countries are actually stuck in this cycle where they have to


they don't have the funds they don't have the infrastructure maybe sometimes they also don't have the government to implement policies to encourage environment or to use uh clean energy and all those they are poor so


okay they are actually lagging behind as compared to those developed countries where they have more funds or they are actually more educated or they are more willing to actually spend some time to think about the environment, so why I say that this is a cycle see when you are poor the richer countries will actually disseminate some or they will actually displace some of their industry or those industry that actually


uh produce more uh CO two and all those to other poorer countries, because the labor the costs to set up in that poorer country is actually lower and because of the lack of


government , government policies to actually prevent the destruction of the environment in these poorer countries that it's actually easier for them to set up and actually manufacture and maximise profit, so this is actually the displacement of the CO two to a poorer country so when you're in a poor country okay you have such industry or such offices or the co-factories and all those then when this happen


you will have pollution in the water which will result in sickness as you said earlier on sickness and then it will actually lower in productivity because people keep getting sick they take leave they cannot, work so it's actually a cycle where the poor country will continue being poor because they are not bothering about environment see so that's why I say


poor countries should maybe think and put some thought into escaping from this cycle and then maybe they can from there on become richer and second thing is when they think about the environment you maybe can look for new opportunities greener alternatives like maybe they can look into


electric car, the the coming up one is the electric car where they actually say that the electric car means you don't have to use fossil fuel, ya so you can kinda save the environment this way so you can look at alternative maybe you will bring new opportunities to these poorer countries and then these opportunities will allow these poorer countries to actually escape from being poor anymore


ya so what do you think


I understand your point but actually uh there're actually different like NGOs that you are talking about earlier on they actually have, special funding for environment uh there also there the green climate fund which is a fund established by the UNFCCC uh to actually adopt and adapt and mitigate process uh practices to counter climate change or they can actually


go and look at different funding like example global environment facility funding which is actually uh, administered by the world bank to get funding to actually uh get the money to actually uh, look so that they will have enough money to look into environment issues


ya other than these other than those, funds that are administered or provided by the big boys like world bank there also those that are for from those smaller organisation like you can look at japan fund for global environment, or the UNWG charity programme all these program uh will provide funding to countries or developing countries these grants are actually specially for developing countries which are usually poorer


ya so they will give them this funding they will, be they will be able to afford whatever facilities or necessary implementation that they need so that they can actually, build a better world a more environmentally friendly environment for all of its people


ya so when the environment is good people get sick less then there will be more productive then they can earn more money GDP will grow poorer countries will become slightly richer and maybe hopefully in the future more rich, and secondly another point for thought is that poor countries right


they don't have money so one day let's say one day down the route the climate change is very bad we have shortage of crop, we got not enough food for everyone do you think the poorer countries will have money to buy food they won't have the richer countries will have the money to actually go and buy the food because supply and demand you know our market is free everything is affected by supply and demand


so when the demand is high supply is low you have to pay more so the poorer countries will not be able to afford this, and another point for thought is that, from all the climate change or deforestation you will actually result in natural disaster like landslides, or maybe other hurricanes or tsunami that happen more frequently because of climate change


the poorer countries will not have money to actually rebuild their home or rebuild their place if they, if they don't bother about environment issues right this kind of thing will just keep on happening and happening until one day they will not have enough money to have to do anything at all


ya so what are your thoughts then


it's because human strive for progress progress over the environment sacrifice we we sacrifice the environment over and we take on progress more progress we want to evolve into the future to get better quality of life


but at the expense of the environment there is always a trade off in everything like you can never have the best of both worlds


I do not agree with what you just said you are saying that the richer countries are the one that could are the one main cause of the environment destruction it's not not exactly true because the poorer countries firstly when they're not doing anything and letting everything around them rot


it will just continue to rot and then there is nothing to save at the end of the day, so you cannot just put the blame on the richer country the poorer countries also have their own blames or they have to take on some blame also , and second thing and another thing that I want to make a point is that the government of the poorer countries when the richer countries actually want to set up in these poorer countries the government could have stopped them if this


plan to actually set up these factory will actually result in a lot of, destruction to the environment or will actually bring harm to the people living around that area the government could have stopped them the government of the poorer countries could have stopped them but they didn't so isn't it inaction


you are looking at the individual emission of CO two right but actually most of the CO two emissions is actually by the heavy industry the industries are the one that actually releases most of these gas especially those cold fuel


I do not agree with what you've just said because if you say that they belong only to certain countries but there are actually most operations most of the MNCs which is the big companies in the richer country that we're talking about now they actually operate worldwide, even in like not only like the only in their home base where it's like richer country and it's more developed they actually operate worldwide


ya but another point, another point that I want to say is that because poorer countries right you cannot cannot just say that oh cause I poor I, most of the pollution is not I do one you have to think of another thing poorer countries are usually have lack of infrastructure and lack of actually uh


power as you can say cause they don't have funding and another thing one more thing that actually pull down these poorer countries is actually corruption like there are level the level of corruption in these poorer countries are usually much higher, because there is lack of governance lack of corporate governance ya so another thing it's like because of corruption they


let's say if these poor country went to get some funding from, world bank to get for climate change let's say world bank gave them funding of hundred million what trickles down all the way to the end, and actually the end that produces results might only be like a small part of this amount that they were given this funding that they they were given so


it's also because of these that it actually aggravates and make it difficult for these poorer countries to actually address environmental issues, ya so this is not like just looking purely at basic needs of own people and one more thing is that people like you and me right you cannot just say I want to survive I wanna put food on the table but you should understand that the environment around you


actually affects you, and it affects anything that you do like I said just now the environment around you is like uh we talk pollution okay pollution of water then you get dirty water, that you drink already you fall ill so you cannot say it doesn't like none of your business it affects you it affects in it affects you like


in all in all of your life your work everywhere it affects you, ya so ya that's all


part three debate topic three


okay now today we're discussing what the real heroes of environmentalism are rebels and we're discussing this topic right


okay environmentalism actually we used to don't have this concept long long long long long time ago uh actually begin in like europe in the early eighteen hundreds, uh it's actually a this idea of environmentalism actually came into existence through another ideology


uh called romanticism uh romanticism was not an artistic and intellectual movement based on love but rather it places a lot of emphasis on nature and wanting people to appreciate the woods for their beauty which challenged the solely scientific view many had of nature at that time


and then later in the eighteen hundreds uh the environmental movement uh started to grow strongly in return as a as as a response to industrial revolution, at that time when we first started with the industrial revolution there was not much environmental regulations to actually stop


corporations or businesses to expand too quickly and expand at the, uh at the cost of the environment ya so at that time uh there were many factories that actually polluted the air and water and they expanded their operations into farmland areas and the outskirts


so actually destroyed the farmland areas and then there was also backlash from the people from the farmland when they actually took over their place and actually destroy the farmland quiet and nice environment at that area


so this is how environment environmentalism actually begin, ya so why I say that the real heroes and environmentalism are rebels is because at that time, environmentalism is not such a hot topic people actually uh protest and put up these kind of ideas to other people or to spread the awareness of such issues


and they rebel against their whatever society thought was correct at that time they rebel against it so that they actually bring forward to today where we actually have these kind of, environmental conservation efforts even all the countries and everyone is participating or trying to participate to save the environment


it's because of these people long ago who are thought of as rebels who bring about these kind of ideas when before we get to our current modern situation of, everyone trying to step in to save the earth


and as you all know human are actually or human being are actually a very reactive species we only react when something crops up, so when there's no problem when there's no issue we usually just let it be status quo we just don't care


ya we're not a proactive people or not a proactive issue uh species whereby we will go and look and look for something to try and solve it before it even happen, so it's because of these rebels that actually brought about these ideas for change


so I will say that the real heroes of environmentalism are rebels what do you think


ya as you said uh so many people are actually putting in and playing their putting in the effort and playing their part in saving the environment but the topic here we're talking about is real heroes if everyone can be a hero they would then and then there won't be anything special about heroes anymore right


ya so if everybody is doing, whatever everyone else is doing it would actually be called a norm and not called a hero a hero is somebody who actually started something and in symbolises something good for us to, follow is a good example for us to follow so we're talking about the real heroes not the norm that everyone is doing like you and me


ya we cannot call ourself heroes like that everyone will be hero already we'll have billion of hero on the earth


ya as you said outstanding if everyone is doing it how is it outstanding there's nothing out for you to stand so there's nothing outstanding you see, so how can you call everyone heroes like that you are a hero, everyone is a hero ya when when everyone


is doing it it will be called a norm that means it's normal to do it nothing heroic about nothing outstanding you see outstanding must have outstanding means that you are special out of everyone that is doing this you are special that's why called outstanding


bill gates is known is bill gates is more bill gates, more well known in setting up Microsoft and being one of the richest man on earth that is what he is more well known of is he doesn't go around publicising his


ya he he doesn't go around publicising himself as a environmentalist, or he's very advocating for everyone he doesn't go around telling everyone that he does that so, I will not think like in my point of view I wouldn't think that he is the real heroes and the real heroes are the people who actually started this idea of environmentalism that is called the real heroes like it begin long ago I know


how to measure their efforts when these people that started the environmentalism has has really long


what it is today you see so, is from these small ideas and then people actually putting in effort and creating awareness educating someone else and telling everyone that if they don't do this what will happen like, you have to go and tell everyone and before they will actually


more people will actually participate in your ideal environmentalism ideal you'll have to go around, it's because of this small people that started like they are like founders because of the founders that's why we have what we have today so I will say that founders are the real heroes it's just like uh in singapore where we have #lee kuan yew# it's the same


I think he will be the man that will be he will be forever remembered, because they are the starter they are founder nobody at that time actually thought so much of the environment, how do you know that they didn't influence a lot I mean everything starts small everything starts small ya it's because of them


they have outstanding achievement which is why after the industrial revolution right uh a lot of countries came up with environmental law it is during the movement time of industrial revolution so they came up with environmental law and it's because of people that they


take these small step that we have what we have today so you cannot deny and said that the people or the founders or the starters they're not heroes, and anyway right I mean since we're on the issues of rebels right I will say that uh it's because of all these people that we actually became more proactive in our actions and


in the actions that we take to save the earth, it's because of all these people that saying that oh there is climate change the world will, we will have what uh the loss of the amazon forest area becoming smaller like all these people all these people actually says this kind of thing then other people join them or after other people know of these then they join them then the movement can become bigger


ya it's only bill gates and


a rebel is not somebody who fight against the government he's just somebody who has different ideas from the norms of society


like you see right we have electric car, if nobody wanted to rebel against the idea of having normal diesel car or the petrol car nobody rebel against that idea do you think we'll have electric cars today or we have energy fossil fuel energy


which creates electricity it's because, people rebel against this idea of creating electricity because it destroys the earth that people actually went to look for other source or alternative source of cleaner energy like solar energy wind power to use to or hydro electricity all these to create electricity


how is a how is a electric car better than a fossil car both car can move at the same speed and at present technology the electric car actually move even slower and it needs more recharges and it's actually more troublesome and costly to actually go on it so it's because people rebel against the idea that you have progress


if if people do not question, is not faster and another thing and another thing is it is more costly


do you see us using electric car in singapore it's because it is more costly people do not use it it will take it will take quite some time firstly there's no recharging station secondly it's costly as you said as you said earlier in our last topic


as you said in our last topic as you said in our last topic right, people are selfish, people are selfish no you you ya okay understand ya


it is not enough it is if it is enough right do you think that everyone will still be using petrol, petrol fuelled car, not so soon and they will face they will face people protesting on this idea


and they will take a very long time which it will be a very long time and secondly as we as you said just now right people are selfish do you think you will spend the extra money just to save the earth, do you think that you are do you think you


it is more expensive as our minister our minister for water and development that minister for environment actually said that he agrees that it is actually more expensive in his article in today online in year twenty seventeen he actually already said it he knows that it's actually more expensive


that's why he knows that we actually face challenges in actually trying to meet our paris agreement target also, there will always be challenges no it will not as of today it will not be more it is the same logic if it is cheaper right why do you think that electric taxis are more expensive the rental of electric taxis are slightly more expensive why do you think is that so


you see and another thing is, you know R&D right R&D put into electric car right, electric car are more expensive now also partly because of the R&D cost actually put into actually develop the R uh the electric car system so R&D are actually recharged to consumer so at this point in time we are still paying off the R&D that's why it's slightly more expensive it will take some time for it to actually become cheaper


or don't say cheaper to for it to net off and for the efficiency of the electric car to match that of the fossil-ed fuel or the petrol-ed car, for match the efficiency and match the maintenance cost it will take some time but at this point in time it's not actually better which is why you don't see people a lot people switching to electric car at this moment


ya will your question is will will and four years, in singapore how long do you think our car can actually be used, we have to renew our COE at such a high cost some more, ya so what makes you think that you will actually get back


ya it's okay


part one debate topic one oh okay


redo ah, so I stop it or just again


part one debate topic one


, since there is there is a need to


there is a need for all these things therefore, sorry could you repeat your your summarising point


so my points going to be, actually that uh profits for companies actually spurs innovation and uh in particular for the pharmaceutical and drug industries cause


companies in the self are incentivise by profits and there's a structure and their aim is to maximise it ah, this is apparent as uh


even the government also give handouts patents and exclusive rights for drugs and


they understand the value the importance of it of the, if the importance of profits so as to, spur innovation, so


one example of this would be in the US they the FDA gives exclusive rights and patents to to pharmaceutical companies for about twenty years and uh


from various sources it states that during this period of exclusivity and patents which prevents uh competitors from making the same drugs or even competing in the same market, these companies can make up to eighty percent of their profits from these drugs therefore uh my point would be that


profits helps to spur innovation because if not for profits these companies itself would not be incentivised to even make this, medicine or drugs and hence


there will be a void of scientific research in that specific area


university study about space I guess certain things maybe you learn about the universe are like NASA I don't believe there's really much profit to be made


there but ah I feel that certain things that can be made of like certain forms of engineering or innovations in those kinds of fields, I guess profit is to me is pretty I think is pretty important


in order to facilitate some of the, development in that areas ah, okay uh I guess I've I'll go on to my other point going to make which is also in the


the same pharmaceutical industries, and I didn't write it down


but uh I guess I’ll elaborate a bit more on my first point of the, on certain drug certain things like antibiotics have not had uh much development since the, nineteen eighties because there's uh lack of is not as lucrative as selling other drugs such as like headache medication or certain other


headache err hay fever, or this which are you can see in on american TV such as CNN where they advertise these types of consumer drugs ah so my point is that


certain certain fields there wouldn't be innovation if there was an profits uh


oh application of


sorry uh I think most of the thing he said was pretty pretty good I mean I agree most of them


so besides uh if not for profit then how would they how should we get the funding for scientific research


ah I see because, I understand lah because scientific research is supposed to be get beneficial for us the human race ah not just to just not not just at the expense of uh because profits in a certain sense at expense of


consumers ah because you are charging them more than what they're what they're, what's the cost price uh if too much of it will, will lead to I guess a higher gini coefficient I guess in a certain sense


do you have any uh advice or what the


what the government can do to regulate to to prevent certain companies from profiting too much of of essential scientific research


like is like anti uh I guess anti competition regulations like is it like you can we can


introduce or encourage competition in fields where there is a monopoly like as you said


do you know any big pharmaceutical pharmaceutical companies in singapore just curious since I know you are a bit more aware about all the scientific areas of scientific research and ya


okay I guess uh I guess I’ll summarise my my point was that uh certain okay certain industries needed profit in order to encourage research in certain areas ya


how stop ah


part two debate topic two


I uh so for the first point you mentioned is that like, interpersonal skills of people are would worsen but actually isn't interpersonal skills part of communication skills and is it not that just in our current time of twenty first century dell


medium that we use for communication is more online like writing emails and, using WhatsApp chat and Facebook for example so even though maybe our interpersonal skills will have worsen I would say that our communication skill as a whole has not actually worsen because


it is what is relevant now do you agree with that


, ya so I, I’ll just bring up my first point also that uh, I believe uh


technology has given us the opportunity to pick up new skills, uh from more places such as like home when before in the past we will have to go to a physical classroom we have to learn from uh professional


this is an or somebody like many years ago for example a thousand years ago in the school you want to learn about aristotles teaching you have to go down to his school really have to go all the way there and listen to him talk, then in the seventies and sixties and seventies the VHS tape recorders which teach you certain skills you can learn and now in the present time you can we even have


the internet I guess ah we can, pick up anything from even communication body language interpersonal skills and all these which you can learn all this is all available for courses online and this is only through technology that we can learn


so much ah, if not for this we wouldn't have access to such a huge library of knowledge which can improve our skills so therefore I believe technology has actually improve our skills, due to the huge library of information we have available now


but sorry I got alright uh


but, because of technology we may have less opportunities for interaction but we are not in a complete vacuum of interactions and we still have the opportunity to go out and learn and speak speak with others in that sense although it may not be as much, as before I could I would argue that technology itself


by teaching us a lot of these things it would require less experience because you have the knowledge on how to communicate and all these skills you wouldn't have need as much experience as compared to someone who wasn't able to pick up these skills from the use of like a hand phone or computers


okay and then I'll move on to my other point unless you have something to rebut


technology has in, has helped us to has enhanced the, level with the intricacy as at which we can do things or the quantity it for example I guess , scientists would we could in the past all the


for the leaning tower of pisa there was a problem about how much it tilted, and it was due to certain concentrations in the ground and uh the soil, soil soil what if there are constituent parts ah anyways


nobody could solve it, until in the nineteen seventies there were some, engineers who use computer models, oh sorry I think it's the nineties, who used computer models to determine the the makeup of the soil which couldn't be done before hence the engineers could


skill to fix the problem of the leaning tower so such that it doesn't lean so much was they could do it lah as in a sense we as because of technology they it had it managed to enhance their skills and knowledge


so my point is that technology help to, helped to enhance the skills of people instead of adding to the detriment of it ya


well I would argue that the skills is the level of intricacy or difficulty in which you can do certain things so


I would say that if you if you use even if with the use of technology to help you I would still argue that it is the use it does improve your skills in a certain sense cause you're able to do something that couldn't be done before, yes that would be my point


well if you take away all technology then we'll be back at the stone age when it in the if the argument, uh, uh because I would say the our skills is our skills is interlinked with the technology which we use we also learn how to use all this technology and you could say like


we could argue that a computer scientist in that sense have no skills at all because they will have to type lines of codes and just by writing it on a paper is absolutely useless


well I do agree with the part that you said that you to to start off with the skills just get the basics done you would have to like for a child


for patients you need to they will need to learn it they may have to learn it from person but to enhance to improve further improve a skills you can learn online like even for patience their techniques you can learn about just letting things calm you don't have to wait you don't have to


want something all this philosophy all these online after you get the basics all learned up to a advanced levels is all available online, to to improve your improve those soft skills


I would I would agree also with that that part where you, do say maybe our small part of our mental calculation skills will be disproved but overall holistically our math skills will have improve there's so many things we can calculate do quadratic equations all


finding the routes for solutions getting like logarithms and learn to find out about a population to calculate about population growth or economic growth all these wouldn't I would say would be very hard to, do at our level which is uh which is what we do at about


uh secondary school level or A level student all these will not be possible without the use of technology so I would say that this actually overall holistically enhances our skills


maybe maybe for quadratic equation is easy to calculate but what about certain uh logarithmic functions I would I would argue that using a calculator, but, still understanding how is done and knowing all these


calculation skills will be better than not knowing it not knowing how to do and not having technology at all


sorry I got , uh, uh sorry ah I I I would like to bring up one point that you said about the critical thinking skills you said that the using an internet would


uh, I guess minus away from a persons critical thinking skills but is that really true because certain questions that you want to find out you, you can find out but does it not does not wanting to find out more and then thinking greater about it and searching for an answer also


I guess stimulate critical thinking after all there are a lot of, answers that are not available that are not really available online more like political views all these stuff do not have a fixed answered so by reading both sides you are actually thinking more critically than as compared if you weren't if you didn't even have uh


medium or internet to Google to search for all these answers because you only have one answer in your head and you cannot considered different perspectives


, so do I finish off or do I finish it or do we still continue


, I think is okay already, uh I think can move on


part three debate topic three


okay uh cindy there are some points that uh that you brought up you said it usually their process takes about five years to get through and uh but I am aware for this COVID vaccine they're speeding up the process usually needs


about one to two years instead and is it, is it not important to regulate in a certain to a high standard especially if the disease or if certain things are not dire such as COVID


other vaccines is it not worth waiting a bit longer to ensure that everything is correct and scientifically sound before release a certain uh vaccine into the market


okay so I’ll I’ll move on I’ll move on to my first point uh, I would say that uh unlimited unlimited scientific research shouldn't be allowed if it is not better for the society likes


for example some scientific endeavours which does not bring any benefit to, us as a whole such as research on chemical biological weapons et cetera during world war one there were many uh I guess will be near the height of science before there was all the regulations in place


they created many weapons of mass terror such as mustard gas, all this which have which I don't think that there's any benefit of mustard gas you cannot use it on protesters as it is horrible it's painful this, this the main aim of it is to inflict inflict maximum suffering


and this is uh and this doesn't bring any good for us so therefore I believe in this case that certain scientific endeavors to which doesn't benefit us shouldn't actually be, we shouldn't allow it ah in that sense ya


it yes I'm done would you like to move on to your point


uh yes that is uh that is or actually more the ends ah more the the end the end goal must be something good for society, the the product the product in which he create must be I guess if it's not beneficial for society like certain things that are not beneficial for society we shouldn't allow it ah we shouldn't allow scientific research in that field


okay I'll just like to say that uh just because it has helped us greatly now uh oh wait that brings me to my next point ah


now before any scientific research get uh published or what they they need to go through a moral ethics board to get the green light uh this was set up uh especially during the in the sixties they conducted this thing called the prison experiment at stamford where they


where they split half the participants into prisoners and the other half into prison warden and while doing it while, conducting it the professor himself he was the chief warden in a sense and he got so involved in it he’s so passionate and soon


all the warden believe that they was superior to the prisoners and they were treating them as if they‘re students or the participants of actual prisoners, and I even uh I guess there's a lot of mistreatment of the prisoners even though they have not done anything wrong they were actually just participants in a certain sense so certain ethics and moral is questionable shouldn't be allowed even it's if it's for the good also another example would be like uh


in europe most uh most countries in europe has ready stop experimentation on great apes such as chimpanzees and gorillas, because we know morally and ethically even though is, for the benefits of humans and they are our closest cousin so it would be really good to use them to tests I guess medication or any any sort of


trauma medicine field but but anyways it is unethical to do it as they feel much of the pain and what which we experience so my point is that, is even though last time they even though they might have we might have gotten some good outcomes from


immoral or immoral experiment they still isn't right ah to do it for today standard of morals and ethics


well


okay uh so my first point that I would like to address is like, is it money certain certain, endeavours will be wouldn't be possible without unlimited, I guess funding in a certain sense but I would like to bring up the in the past during the cold war between uh specially between there was the space race rivalry between USSR and and uh america of the western western world lah anyways


during that time USSR, spend almost twenty percent on research to go to space uh so that they could beat the americans as certain beat the americans in like being ahead technologically for the space race


however it was at the expense of the people the people did not have enough food to eat or would not doing well as well did not have as much consumer goods as compared to those in the west or, so even though you


even if it's given unlimited money it may not be good for the people as a whole I guess ya, and second for for my second point about the about crisper even though it is really I I'm also really happy that they managed to create people with HIV resistance but then it would lead to


this thing called uh I'm don't know if you heard of it designer babies and who gets access to this obviously the richer people will be will get access to this advanced technology first cause it's not very cheap so then wouldn't the rich be benefiting by having all the


positive traits like uh getting all the good traits, whereas the poorer who cannot afford have to deal with the best uh worst part of genetics like cancer and all those in a certain sense you are creating a superior race within the human which is a bit like hitlers eugenics I would say


well that I agree that there always is hierarchy but isn't this making the gap even bigger in the as compared to the past you already have many uh society have many, progression progressive stuff to ensure that the power the power of the top how many percent are controlled and given power to the bottom field for example democracy in athens which was created in athens


some some sources say will will give the would ever since then it does give like the, poorer people a choice to vote for their leaders and choose who would best serve the public and it also limits the powerful from being at absolute monarch in like certain sense for they have


they are, their goal to stay align I guess to stay in power is dependant on their goals aligning with the people


okay thank you


debate topic one


part one debate topic one, the main purpose of scientific inventions is to aid people and to better the humankind


and in order to come up with a research topic the first and foremost step of any scientific process is to make observations and where do these observations come from it come from observing our human daily life and come up with solutions for them


if there's any problem and where does this uh problems come from they come from human needs, without a problem faced by us there will be no scientific solutions that's needed and for example with the recent corona virus pandemic it has started to uh it has started a competition between different pharmaceutical company to develop a vaccine


in order to alleviate us from the effects brought upon by this infectious disease so without this corona virus pandemic and the problem, cause upon by the pandemic there wouldn't uh they wouldn't need a vaccine in order to counter this


and scientific research or science as a whole is about the process not just about a single innovation or product as compared to engineering, and the scientific community builds on each others ideas so is not just uh one single idea one single idea we based on each others ideas to come up with more innovations and for example benjamin franklin


invented the electricity and with this invention of electricity can brought upon us a new era of technology such as smartphones computer and we are even talking through a screen right now ya so without


the invention of electricity they wouldn't be all these amazing ideas and revolutionary discoveries, and so if we are into if we are so profit oriented at all times there wouldn't be scientists wouldn't be that motivated to come up with inventions and we wouldn't be able to build upon it into bigger and revolutionary once


to conclude my point scientific research has such an immense potential to be able to impact and benefit the world hence human need to be uh focus, the science needs to be focused on human needs instead of profit for the betterment of humankind and to


alleviate our uh the potential of science to help humans


uh I'd like to conclude that scientific research has such a big potential to better humankind and uh the process of science is the first step of a scientific process is observation and through human needs


ya so if we're so oriented on profit we might not be able to fully maximise the potential of our scientific research to help better humankind


so pezzo your point is that profits spur innovation however profits does not necessarily equate to better research for example uh very notorious company known as the EpiPen


, so EpiPen is needed by people with epilepsy and they need it in order to survive and carry on their daily lives however the company


after the development of the product and throughout all this years since the first development there hasn't been any improvements that's done on the product however the price of the EpiPen has increased at least


seven fold throughout uh from now compared to when it first came out so uh greater profit does not, necessarily spur innovation to improve on the product itself ya so greater profit does equal to greater research and I also heard that uh you emphasise on


only pharmaceutical company uh scientific research does not, only consists of pharmaceutical company and drugs it also consists of another area which is the scientific academia which uh in which scientists


research carry on research and publish uh papers in journals in order to advance our human collective knowledge and this, research that are generated by universities research academia and labs are not solely for monetary purposes it's solely just for our human knowledge so uh scientific research


should not uh put so much emphasis on on profit and money ya that's my point


uh to


you mentioned that antibiotic is not well developed because it doesn't generate as much profit as compared to, uh other drugs I believe that that's not true because whenever you are sick or from a bacterial infection I'm pretty sure the doctor prescribed antibiotics and the reason why antibiotic is not


well it's not people are not researching on antibiotic and coming up with new stronger antibiotic is because of the problem of antibiotic resistance so we had come up with like, uh the strongest antibiotic and bacteria has this amazing capability of


uh developing resistance overseas antibiotic and hence the scientific research is actually moving more towards alternative therapy compared to antibiotic and this still revolves around our human needs because we don't want to fall sick and die from these diseases hence we


uh channel the research, into coming out with medicine to uh save humankind and prevent much more lives from being lost so an example to antibiotic


alternative will be bacteriophage therapy ya for example singapores uh NUS we have a they have a facility known as the uh SMART ya and they're right now researching on bacteriophage and


whether or not this uh so bacteriophage is like using virus to counter bacteria instead ya and this viruses has no harm to human ah they only target bacteria and these are just


theoretical ideas we don't know they don't know whether it's going to work or not ya so you don't even know whether you can generate profit from it from that yet they're still trying it's all because of human needs ya to ensure the continuity of our species survival ya


I absolutely agree with you that in engineering uh money is really required to facilitate the development of some product but


hence many debate that engineering is not really a type of science engineering is more of uh science that can


monetise from it ya but science is not just about, uh profiting ya, so engineering is like a branch of science to generate profit but science as a whole is not just about money ya and science is created from observations of human needs ya


ya ya that's that's what I mention engineering is a branch of science but it's not science as a whole there's so much more to science than just money ya but of course without funding and all all this research can‘t be


facilitated as well ya


ya but I do agree with you but money is equally important in this uh realistic society, ya but


uh I believe that there's a specific amount of budget that set by country in order to, carry out all this research and when there is no amount of price that we want to


uh, basically we can't pay for human knowledge ya, and when this budget are set aside for product development I I mean for scientific research uh there shouldn't be like you know


the government shouldn’t be expecting for profits to come back by law just solely for scientific research so I guess that's what the budget and funding is for, especially for academia labs for example like A*STAR in singapore ya


and of course they can eventually build on these ideas they are based on human needs and come up with, for build on the, research knowledge and come up with a product that you can eventually profit so maybe uh profit is like the second step the second half of the uh scientific research the first part is still about human need yup then so


if you can profit from it then it's a bonus ah ya but it shouldn't be the main core of why we do research,


ya as for example EpiPen, still still a debate till this day whether it's really ethical but just because ah there's a lack of competition lah but that's another whole topic on its own


I am pretty sure singapore don't have that that much regulations for businesses, I am


and not not that clear about it ya but, I think they can maybe impose stricter measures such as like uh


ya ya I think that's one way that singapore can help regulate but I think most of the major big pharmaceutical companies are from overseas they’re not from singapore


ya so, I I don't foresee such problem in singapore but while in america or europe


I I more well aware in the schemes of academia


ya but lesser lesser on product development if I'm not wrong is procter and gamble from singapore


or they are founded in but they’re from


ya uh I think that scientific research should solely be on human needs and not not putting profit first ya


ya then I was trying to stop for like press the red button instead