uh discover more and actually be more interested within this topic and after this this further uh further trickles down into them being more passionate about a certain subject, so we draw a comparison between side proposition and side opposition by saying that side proposition will actually promote people to become more curious more interested in the topic while side opposition within the classroom they will just be monotonous they only learn a certain set of fixed items for example if we're learning biology and we're learning let's say about the the


diversity of basic animals a teacher can bring the students to a garden and within this garden she can draw, uh life cycle and which is of course what we can see inside the textbook so uh I'll stress upon the fact that the teacher does play a really important part on the idea of experiential learning


so not just that but once students see like different things outside of this life cycle for example they notice this additional link to a life cycle whereby uh an animal uh animal might consume two, eh uh two other animals compared to one stated in the textbooks so that makes them actually more curious about this topic and because of that they'll actually start to do more research into this topic which actually promotes the joy of learning


and because of that there are students who want to learn more and of course enjoy learning more and this make students more motivated for a class and of course, simultaneously improve attendance, back to you side opposition


okay so uh you talked about two things first of all is the examinations parts and second of all is the teachers part so I'll target the point about the examinations first of all so on the point of examinations uh, oh yes uh before that sorry uh side proposition did not touch on a point of uh promoting discovery so I'll assume that he accepts my point on promoting discovery


okay moving on to the part about the examinations first of all so in terms of examinations yes , uh definitely all subjects are examinable however you can learn different things outside of the classroom and then after that you can go home and you can revise those things and then you can sit for examination you don't have to constantly sit in the classroom and grind because that grind uh study can be done at home


in comparison the learning and the actual understanding and the, internalisation is best done outside of the classroom why because you can see you can touch it is it really caters to a different forms of learning kinesthetic uh listeners or whatever so this really uh engages students best outside of the classroom


next of all you talked about the idea about the teacher and I say yes I do acknowledge the part about how the teacher does not uh is not always present and of course if you do check the textbook then, the teacher might not be there of course so yes outside outside uh I mean we uh if you are not on like in class and you do read the textbook of course feel free to ask the teacher


and of course if you are naturally if you are naturally motivated just from reading the textbook then that's great but what we can see is that not all students are naturally motivated from a from a simple book, students are more motivated when they're literally when they're physically over there and they can see something which engages them something which engages the mind which actually will result in the mind becoming more stimulated and resulting in them actually wanting to do that thing itself yup so back to you


okay so something which I have to uh talk about before that is , on the idea of distractions, so you the way you shape or have kind of straw straw man this entire debate is to make it seem as if we are doing an entire debate based on learning in primary schools


whilst we we are talking about simple topics we are not talking about, studying in primary schools so what I'm trying to say is about distractions usually it's younger students are usually generally those who are distracted, so there there's a lower propensity for students of higher educational levels for example secondary school JC and even university to be distracted by let's say an animal but uh of course


which is why definitely your point about distractions might only uh will only be valid if it's a primary school debate so yes I'll say that yes to to an extent you do uh I I do bite the bullet that uh primary school students are very distracted especially in uh


learning outside however by going outside of the classroom will actually makes them it or at least we're uh we're trying an attempt to actually engage them even further because you are talking about distractions right distractions are prevalent everywhere within the classroom and outside the classroom they're definitely


uh distractions everywhere it's just which one will potentially engage the mind further so which is what we try to achieve on side proposition whereby we say that on side proposition we have, a further forms of engagement compared to side opposition whereby we actually try to uh uh appeal to students more with life samples or with experiential of looking at the thing itself and uh the the next thing uh


ya that that that's pretty much covering your entire rebuttal, okay back to you side op


okay so first of all uh I like to acknowledge that you have uh you have actually conceded to my point about promoting discovery so on the idea of the internet okay


okay regarding what the proposition mention about having schools that grade based solely on paper qualification so I think I would like to question that because to my knowledge if I'm not wrong


for admission into such as university or even post like higher tier of educations I understand that not just paper qualifications make the cut for students but also stuff such as their character development a good testimonies from referees or community involvement to show that they have


more than just book knowledge but also like passion and social commitment so I understand that, what the proposition mentioned about having , little relation to what students study in relation to what they will they will do in their jobs in the future I think that's not a very true idea because I know that like let's say for doctors like for the students who are studying medicine in university they have to have a basic knowledge of the human anatomy


how the body works and all the different functions of each organ so without a book knowledge or like the paper qualifications for it I think it's it'll be very hard for students, to become a doctor because they don't have the theory necessary for it even if let's say they have the technical knowledge and practical skills


to maybe operate on the surgery table but if they do not know or cannot identify the correct organ the correct vein then I think the surgery will go very haywire very early and I think that's not a very good thing for a doctor to do


okay uh in regard to what the proposition mentioned about not about having the


education system building up from the secondary to the JC and then onwards to tertiary education I think it's a very good point, but I also feel that it's a bit too much of a burden on the education system and the students themselves because if you look at what the education system currently provides it provides the slow slow and steady pace of building up on the content knowledge of what students have as they graduate from primary school secondary school


to JC and then to tertiary education so what this does, is that it slowly builds up and give that from the first level primary school you give a very basic general science overview and then when you go to secondary school they'll split this general science into biology physics chemistry


and then there's they even offer combined science so that there's a lower step, difficulty and requirement of the subject that they study and then when they go to junior college and onwards to university , all the knowledge that they learn builds up and all the terms all the technical information they have different naming systems they have different terms so this really builds up on the knowledge of the students so that when they eventually graduate from university they'll be more prepared to see what they face in the actual workforce


being applied in what they do so this provides information such as like forming construction they'll know that certain floorplans have to be stay so like let's say for HDB certain walls cannot be knocked down and, as if my job is for designing the homes I know that certain walls cannot be removed or the structural cannot be changed because it's basic knowledge that I know that is for the overall system and the structure of the building


so without all these basic knowledge and theory it'll be very hard to perform well in your own job even if you have the passion for it not only will not be doing well you might even, harm the safety of people involved in it ya so onwards to my second point I feel that for admissions into schools


looking at how students fair in their, previous major exams such as from PSLE to secondary and onwards you have to consider how well each school caters to the students because, some schools are known for heavy workload or a more intense curriculum whereas some some schools will cater to students of lower academia uh inclined


so schools such as like maybe raffles institution in singapore they have a very heavy workload and very major , focus on the studies because they know that these students most of them when they graduate many have the resources to go on to further studies and perform very well in life whereas students in let's say the normal technical schools there are schools that preparing them for more technical skills instead of


higher education because these students they excel better in their vocational skills and therefore if you want to look at how schools admit students one should also consider that the students themselves have to be capable enough to do what they want to do otherwise they will suffer instead


so this is such as like if you cannot if you cannot perform in your own studies then it's very hard for you to say that you can cope with the workload and the stress of your job in the future even if you like it as much as you do so


how students do well yes, no that's not correct so what I mean to say is that some schools they are preparing their students more for the theoretical there's heavy on the theory side where some cater more towards the skill base


so you have schools like ITE which cater more towards vocational skills instead of content knowledge such as like biology focus, yup that's what I mean if it clarifies your doubts


okay I think for what you said in your second point about having your decrease your stigmatism against students and making it more balanced I think it's very relevant I agree but you also have to consider the fact that it's not just students


who are looking and uh and the schools themselves but also look at the side of the employers whether not they will consider students or like employees with certain backgrounds so for example if I am an employer in let's say shipping I wouldn't look for someone who can


build ships to maintain my arrangements of my all of my logistics but I'll instead look for someone who is good at managing the logistics with the technical knowledge about it so they have to have good managerial skills and this


some of these skills also come from studying so studying really builds up character also so if you can study well, sometimes it also shows that you have the resilience when you face failures you have the discipline to pace yourself


you have the determination to continue to finish instead of just starting well but you also end well so studying builds character as well and it's not to say that those who do not study well do not have character but instead I'm just saying that if you study well, you can have better character in a sense and that's in a rebuttal to the NUS uh


okay a few opposition for your points, but I would like to question the point where you said that you instill the the dialect classes from primary three onwards, so you said that even in the worst case that people are not interested to learn or not interested to use it then at least the least that you could have done is to preserve the culture so in a sense what you just said was to learn the to learn the language just to learn the culture


so I question this because I know there are many cultures in the world which have been lost already but does that mean that you have to revive the culture itself so they can learn about it or can you just document maybe a older generation instead, who are very eloquent in the dialects so why not document them and maybe in their own family using it instead of instill it into the education system where you have to go through the logistical implications of implementing this new curriculum where you have to get new teachers who are probably the older generation


to teach and then you also have to get them to learn the curriculum to go with the curriculum which means to go with the school, timetable as well and I'm not sure if you can find many such speakers in singapore anymore because you still have to put you have to decide which schools get to use these speakers because you have to consider how many what's the pool of older generation which are willing to undergo through this process


of teaching the new generations all these new dialects and then you also have to consider which dialects to be introduced into the system first hokkien teochew cantonese, won't then there'll be a bias instead of which dialect is more important rather than just offering the mandarin language as the mother tongue language thank you


okay uh thank you proposition I think you fail to explain one point I raised up, which is the fact that why not you emphasis more placely on the older generation instead of teaching the new generation because if you saying for documentation what I understand is that for example in china


they have many different indigenous dialects and even within like let's say hokkien different regions in china speak different variations of the hokkien dialect so what is happening in china is that there's no formal documentation of the hokkien dialect itself


and from what I understand for mandarin, why it's so popularly used by seventy percent of all chinese speakers is that there's formal documentation and standardisation of the language in the written form as well as verbal so this makes it easy for mandarin to be used to be taught


and propagated even throughout the whole world so for dialects itself I think the problem now is that different people come from different parts of china in the past and when they migrated over, they brought their own different culture and customs and this also means that they have different


language variance so maybe one family speaks this variant of hokkien because they are from certain regions of china and the other family speaks another kind so there might be slight different nuances between each variance and if you want to teach these to the new generation you have to


go and sort it out first among the speakers themselves before you can teach them to a new batch of students so what is happening is that you are suggesting to teach the students from a young age of primary three, a dialect which has not been fully documented itself and there's no standardisation among it so what happen is that they might learn this in school and when they go home


their grandparents or their parents may speak a different variant and they might get a confusion where in a sense that they do not understand why, the same word or the same phrase might be used for different meaning or different words may be describing the same thing so what I'm trying to say is that maybe the emphasis should be placed more on older generation getting the documentation standardisation from them instead first


and then when you have a full set of syllabus from them then you can create a a syllabus customised for the students themselves thank you


okay regarding the point about the standardisation I think , so are you suggesting that if MOE decides to go through with this and then they have this standard of the hokkien dialect teochew dialect and the cantonese dialect that would that mean that this is the official version to be spoken even outside of singapore because if the students themselves they learn this official version


and they proceed on to maybe like china or other parts of the world and they use this dialect, would that come across as, my dialect is the correct version, or mine is the more accurate one, versus maybe like I can appreciate that there are other different variance even without learning it in our education system per se cause I understand that for most families how the children pick up


dialects is mainly based on verbal because when they share their grandparents speak from a young age then they will start conversing with them the grandparents will teach them and that's a system that is not currently in the education system in singapore right now as we understand it but I feel that this is the way that should be because


when you learn it at home it feels more of a home feeling because the dialects really bridge the generation gap between the grandparents and the young generations today and this is done because, they have uh more family vibes that they can pick up this dialects from so it's easier for them to converse and then to learn the language slowly because this will make sure that they don't have like uh education system which


corrects them for being speaking it wrongly or writing it wrongly in a sense when you take major exams because of how you say you want to implement the education system which also has like a grading of exams and then a curriculum so would that mean that


the students themselves they have to sit through what we sit through for our own mandarin languages our english exams our mathematics in a sense yup


okay thank you proposition so I want to raise a point if they're just using learning the language to communicate would that mean that the mother tongue of the younger generation cannot be used to communicate with older generation


thank you proposition for your points I think in reference to your first point about having a better set turn rate outside the classroom because of let's say kinesthetic learners I think that's, a very good point and I agree but I think you also have to consider the fact that classrooms are


it's a room where the students they're they're learning all the content knowledges all the theory and without this basic theory knowledge they might not know what they see feel smell and touch outside in the field, so for example you mentioned a point about how the spores feel they see how how they smell in a flower but if you do not know what they are supposed to smell and when you experience it you do not know how to


give a name or label to it so let's say you smell or you touch a rose, and you know that if you do not know that it has thorns, you will not know that it's sharp and you'll only know when you touch it and then let's say for the smell how would you know what a rose smells like until you smell it right but if you can smell it but you do not know what the smell is then


even if you are outside on your own and you will come across this smell again you do not know what to call it you have no name for it because you did not learn it before you only know that this is this smell and you call it the rose smell but when you come across different rose species you might say this is the rose smell but


how would you know that it's not the same one as the previous variant so what I want to say is that for the classrooms you still learn it the best because you have the theory knowledge first so the textbook knowledge can be taught in a class by your teachers who are qualified and experienced


to in the particular field that they are teaching in, so they have to learn all this basic content before they can go out into the field to experience for themselves what they're learning is real and applicable, so for example field field researchers they have to have prior knowledge of this certain specimen that they are researching and investigating before they can go out into the field into the seas and go and find them to go and bring them back to the lab and experience it and go and research more about it so if they do not know how this specimen looks like


where they hide how they mate then how would they know that they have come across this particular specimen would it be just based on luck or would it be because they know that this specimen leaves in the sea and they come out only at night and then these researchers they will go out


only at night and then they can catch this specimen so that they can find out more about it otherwise they will be blindly looking for it in the day even though they only come out at night yup onto the proposition


thanks to a uh proposition so I would like to say that you are assuming that students only learn because they have exams but I think that's a very flawed idea because I know that there are there're certain subjects or certain topics


that are covered which are non examinable or that do not undergo through a formal exam so for example their classes such as uh appreciation for chinese culture uh all these don't have, major exams or formal examinations that you have to go through for students to learn this topic itself so what I'm trying to say is that they have to learn it in classroom because


these topics is sometimes hard to teach outside of the classroom, so for example if you go out of the classroom then you will always have to have a teacher along with you for your experiential learning to take place but what if you are out on your own like let's say you go to the zoo does that mean that you need to have a teacher so that you can learn


or does it mean that you can be in the classroom looking through your biology textbook and you come across something that, you are interested in like let's say you see a picture of a elephant and you notice that their small tusk coming out but it's not covered in your textbook if you're curious do you have to wait till the teacher brings you to the zoo for you to ask questions or can you just ask the teacher on the spot


so it's a very good point that you raised up about experiential learning about the teacher being there but what if the teacher isn't oh thank you


alright thank you proposition for your points


so the part about you mentioning that opposition did not talk about creative learning in the classroom so I think that's flawed because if you look in the classrooms that's where actually most of the learning taking place cause when you go through your tutorials your lectures


and all your lessons in the classroom then that's when you come across new knowledge that you never read before unless of course you read beforehand in the class , so when you come across this new knowledge , you will be curious because


it cannot be that students are inherently not interested in anything new because young as they are, most of them have a very curious mind they do not have to be out in the field out in the environment out in the garden to see that there is a caterpillar that's something that I did not see before and then I'll ask someone no but instead when they look at something in the textbook show them any book can be a storybook it can be a textbook


can be a encyclopedia they see something new and they are inherently curious because that's what humans are is our innate nature that if when we see something new we want to learn we want to find out more about it and that is where, the view learning takes place and only when you go out into the field


that's what I feel is that it supplements the learning done in the classroom that when you find out you have the basic knowledge first the theoretical, and then when you go out and you see through your maybe your experimental learning that's when you supplement what you have learnt in the classroom and it affirms your knowledge but without the basic knowledge pre hand


there's no way that students will inherently remember everything that they have seen for the whole day , because that's not very easily done for students because when you sit in a classroom and the teachers tell you to


or the teachers go through page number one to five today then that's what you have learned for today and you only want to question what's out of these pages first because, you can only take so much at one go but when you're outside the classroom there might be many distractions outside so let's say the teacher explaining the garden oh this a caterpillar and then explain the life cycle but you can be distracted by the other kids who are not interested or you can be distracted by the other animal at the side of the garden


would then that instead distract you from the learning that's taking place outside the classroom thank you


okay uh thanks proposition, so for this point I shall concede for now because I don't see any further points that I can raise up but for your second point which you raise up about learning online I think that's also something that is similar to what you mention about learning outside the classroom and because you have


now you have a online teacher called google for you to look up, but will that be too much information again for the students themselves because when you go online you search up would you have the correct, discerning ability to find out which information is appropriate for the level of learning that you are at because for let's say a secondary school student the level of


content that they're learning is way below what you see online such as scholarly journals because that might confuse them that what this term that I'm learning is actually inaccurate outside of my school outside of my my education system that when I go into the workforce


that I'll be seeing something that is foreign to what I've learned now would then be would then that confuse them that what I'm learning is wrong and hence make them not curious to learn anymore since whatever they're learning might not be the correct one that they will be using in the future


debate topic one


the first topic we are talking about I mean the debate topic we are talking about is uh humility humility still desirable, today, so from what I understand is humility is uh I mean the quality of being humble and then ah so is it something that we want


or we desire in uh, uh from what I understand is do we desire it I mean, for most I think, there I mean most of them will, desire lah but, uh


maybe to some is not important to them because this is uh in religious context itself humanity can be recognition of self in relation to deity or deities and subsequent submission to said as a member of that religion lah


based on my perspective ah I'm not too sure on the, uh, the propositions I mean the opposition's, prospective I mean derek's prospective so maybe he, you want to advise or I mean


so based on what you have said earlier I mean, uh personal contact I mean so what I understand is this, personally you think that ya maybe is not really, required or needed for, I mean


in your daily life or something itself but I mean, I do think that is that is required, for personally because, as friends or or I mean or people we meet outside all these things


uh your daily life or what whatsoever you do itself I mean what we singaporeans say I don't think you need to have a like, ya ya papaya like that lah, so I mean to be humble continue to uh


I mean it's quite quite straightforward lah I mean daily life you don't need that meh, for what I think that is you need that in your daily life even though I mean company or I mean your work wise or whatsoever you still need that in your daily life don't you think so


okay lah I mean what you what you have shared earlier I quite agree with some, of the points that you have you have said


okay so for, for regarding for this I think more or less we already understand, each individual view, on, ultimately I mean you have your own view of it I will have my own views itself so


okay so for this humility wise what more can we, let see me ah okay okay


oh, (ppc), switch already ah okay so, ya I mean I understand what you have said, uh, like I mean your daily life you, don't I mean, you will desire this humility to a certain aspect all these thing but I mean


, like for example what you said earlier about the shoe all these thing will you give up I mean I don't think that is, really I mean, applies to I mean it applies to this, this kind of uh, what I meant is like maybe


uh when you're when you're meeting with uh, uh anyone daily or, or whatsoever I mean, always be to humble I mean queuing up all these things is is I mean, ya ya papaya only it doesn't help ah


from after I mean after, you have shared so much yourself uh on what you think I mean


basically the humanities are only applies to, to uh, not fully on personal I mean uh on not your daily life but I think, uh it, for my point of view it it does lah because like what I I said earlier also lah


, whoever you meet all these thing even uh simple purchasing of things, or whatsoever you still need, this in you, and this is how they reciprocate to uh, uh, they to service you mah like for example like what you said uh like for example queuing all these thing if you are not


if you have this some kind of attitude I mean uh you won't get the that kind of service that you will want, from the be it sales staff or, customer or or your, or whatsoever who who's around there lah


actually , that's not humble already I mean that's not, not human uh I I think it doesn't apply to that I mean it's not really humanity already what


ya I mean ya correct more to extend itself so like , I want to get something I mean buy something itself I gave up the I mean, uh, in the queue or something itself I gave up to somebody else it it doesn't mean that I'm not humble or anything I mean


that's a totally another thing it's like maybe I mean that's like courtesy or something I don't know lah, ya ya, so I mean whereas for what we what you have shared earlier ya I mean company wise when you're with your coworker no need humble or not


ya that one is another thing but I mean for your daily life, uh like, you want to buy something for, for uh you want to, to get something sell something or whatsoever , I think is still required I mean if you are selling something okay that is a business what if we are buying something


I mean being uh how to say ah being humble or is so, called being nice or something itself I mean maybe you can get you, somewhere back compared to ya it just some stonefish


customer that is trying to get their things , I don't know ah I mean now is a


sorry sorry again I cannot hear


not to not really to like extend to accept everything lah but I mean, uh, if you count it as uh your daily what I mean your daily life itself, we we take a day as a hundred percent ah maybe ninety percent or ninety five percent you you I mean that small little five percent only maybe you will


you show off a little bit to your, maybe your neighbors or your friends or family ya that to be I mean, uh ya, uh ya I mean you won't be going out, showing off to everyone I mean there will be it will be required I mean almost everyday even our conversation between uh ourself or even with your loved one or whatsoever


that's ya I mean that is very important lah to I mean for for more my point of view lah ya


ya lah okay okay lah that that part I agree with totally agree with you lah but I mean uh but however maybe being humble maybe you can just tell the guy or or whoever you just say I'm not feeling well today ya just say !hey! today I'm having fever or something just Siam I mean just just to ignore ya


debate topic part


okay so next topic we are talking about is uh, my life my choice how far can, people expect to live life this way ah, okay , okay so for my so for my view itself uh


I don't think I do not think that this is a, uh eh I agree to, I agree that this will be my life my choice


because ultimately, this is your own life this is your I mean you understand your well yourself better than, anyone does, so should I mean, you should not have someone else


okay lah once in a while you have someone to advise you or, or give you some tips or anything yes but I mean ultimately you are the one who is creating your life, for your future or or, whatever you are doing right now is uh you decide because


sometimes the advice or tips even by, those around you it may not, turn out, to be what you want ah so, then


should uh I mean if the thing doesn't turn out the way you want, then the blame game will come, and when the blame game comes, you will affect the relationship between


whoever I mean we are talking about lah, so, I agrees I agree with with this like my life my choice I should to what I really want do what I really love or, maybe


ninety ninety percent I'll I I'll listen to myself maybe ten percent just try to listen may not execute on what people suggested, uh I will just, continue and do whatever I want


no uh ninety percent it's my own thoughts ten percent it will be, from, someone I mean from people around me lah, ya advices but the uh that's how I


usually do lah I mean even during work


basically it will be like the previous topic we talk about lah there will be two parts or base, uh I mean uh your life your uh I mean, like some small decision or, ya maybe that that's your own choice or your own life I mean like coming to life decision


okay lah like maybe your uh your marriage or your, building up a family on it okay that will be maybe it's not, your life your choice maybe it's uh, with your partner will be our life our choice or something itself but


back to this my life my choice I think, it applies to your daily what what you want to do or whatsoever I think, I'm not uh I mean, from my view it's I'm not uh what influencer or anything I don't think I


affect anyone else I think uh, it's like when you are uh I mean, when you're asking for opinion or anything it's like maybe you asking for approval at your work or anything then you need to wait all these thing for okay lah people


for those who who do not have much patience I mean they will just carry out the task or whatsoever they don't need even wait don't need to wait wait waste such such time or anything they just do whatever they want to do chop chop, like maybe something can be done like maybe in uh one two minutes but


you are asking for suggestion all these things may maybe you take about five or ten minutes, ya so I will still stand, with what I have said earlier I mean I definitely I think, I would think that whatever you want to do


is my I mean, it will be my problem ah my choice unless, I mean now we are talking about ourselves mah so unless we are I mean we are the, minister or parliament or something I mean that is a totally I mean total different


thing we are talking about already ah so, so, ya basically this is what I think think of lah I mean you're you're you're talking about I mean, you shared earlier ya that's nice lah I mean about hitler all these things but, that doesn't apply to us that doesn't really apply to us


because, we are not at that stage or or or whatsoever lah I mean we are just, commoners ya so (ppc) what do you think


ya okay I mean , just now when you touch on you said uh I mean, that word selfish itself, uh like uh my, my life my choice why I'm doing, things that uh uh


I mean okay sorry make it make it simple is, I shouldn't have what you said is my uh I shouldn't have this motto so called motto lah my life my choice, as it will like be uh, selfish all that actually, turning back around itself, if


another I mean someone else who want me to like everything when I ask him or ask her, or or or, for the decision making all these thing, will it be isn't, isn't it also selfish that, the other party uh


wants to poke their nose into everything I mean depend okay this has to depend on what, uh, choices we are making ah I mean basically I mean if we just go, go uh, to the coffee shop to buy some #bak chor mee# don't think you need to have any any any suggestion lah I mean


eh ultimately have to see what ya, we have to see what choices we are talking about I mean, both parties or both groups or whatsoever there I mean they will be selfish as well I mean for my side, I mean okay let's tag on talk about uh


proposition of it I mean for myself and, yourself so if, my I my thinking is, I don't need to uh ask anything, any suggestion or anything I just do whatever I want


but whereas for your side you are saying that, !hey! maybe if we do this maybe you must talk to me uh talk to me first or, if you want to do this maybe you need to, uh talk to who I mean on your part, I mean you are also


I mean selfish in the sense that you're stopping me uh to, carry on freely or easily all these thing I need to, like working in a company itself I I need to get approval


to, okay never mind make it easier like like going to the toilet in, in in in in class, I need to go uh I need to ask, eh teacher go toilet all these thing why not I can I mean just go to the toilet, like that I mean urgent all these thing ya


I mean courtesy or manners aside I mean I'm just say saying, ya ya so I don't, I still stand with what I say I mean what, what uh I saying on this ah my life I mean


to a certain extent I will still, won't won't wouldn't ask !hey!, #wo ke yi zhe ge# I can do this mah I can do that, doing I will just do whatever I like unless it's, is the I mean unless than the decision I'm going to make it may affects someone else life or it may affects someone else ah


ah, ya lah I mean basically just affect someone else then that will be a different story already ah I mean for what, ah what is said will be


open open debate lah just say whatever you you like lor maybe you can just, interrupt also can (mmhmm) (mmhmm) (mmhmm) (mmhmm) (mmhmm) (mmhmm) (mmhmm)


but I mean someone have to be a decision maker also, if you put it that way, ya I mean you put it that way then ultimately then everyday you will be asking


can I do this can I do that or or can we do this can we do that I mean, sometimes, at times you have to take up, do your own make your own decision also ah, ya I mean


uh feelings aside lah I mean ya, soon sorry, ya ya correct so I mean you still need to make a decision automatically, to first scenario my work sorry


wildlife management oh, I mean ya lah I mean I agree agree okay, would good good point but, there's to a certain extent, he uh when, you have to make a decision I mean like I mention


way at the start itself some decision you, I mean I mean we are old enough to know which teacher we need to have advice all these thing, not all, we have to put it to take it, I need to ask these all that I mean ya lor


he is doing his choice his life what any at the moment, ya I mean okay that is a bigger decision on the country level already lah ya lah ya lah correct correct I understand lah another okay ya good okay ya I understand why you


why you bring it ya lah but, for our daily life or daily, uh choices I think, I still believe like uh, how I want to place my bed or how I want to place my cupboard is my choice is my room is what I want to do is none of anyone else business or anything that's what I think lah


part three debate topic three


okay I think uh I will just start so, okay so on the topic I mean the topic number three that we are talking about today will be the world would be a better place if more political leaders were, women what is your view


so yes I agree to, to uh this uh, uh why it's because I mean, male I mean men and women itself they have different views on different things so like for example I mean


, certain cases or whatsoever I mean, how to say ah, some decision I mean for the, be it the country or the


uh the city or whatsoever itself , you to others I mean


I I don't know lah I mean for my I think that, guys thinking and ladies thinking I mean is, at times it may be little bit different lah, so I still agree that, it should be mixed either mixed like for example our recent uh


uh uh election or something itself, more ladies I mean more women are being, elected into the parliament like now I think there's about what twenty twenty or twenty three or something itself ah


it's not that the guys are not doing a good job or anything but I mean, some topics okay I mean maybe some topics or whatsoever uh whatsoever it may be more suitable for the women to touch on it ah I think, so therefore I still agrees that I


mean, not a I mean yes it'll be a better place there will be more voices all these thing, uh, and more views on it not just coming from, the men ya right yes sir (ppc) (mmhmm)


okay thanks, okay for okay thanks for bringing up all the, I mean the question I mean ya what you said earlier ya, so like what you mentioned like uh what you what you bring up earlier like, uh uh pregnant or or uh or the menses ya or whatsoever all these but the thing is


for example let's take their president, of for example you have, the MP or the vice president or whatsoever there to be taking charge, uh or, to take over temporarily or, your uh office jobs uh I mean of uh your work


during your absence or whatsoever, then, the thing is I want to ask you is, what makes you think that, uh whatever guys does, uh guys uh the guy MP does the lady can't do I mean it's not


not asking you to build a house or anything I mean it's just your, your views on your citizens uh, privileges or or whatsoever itself I mean, both male and female


I don't think there will be any, I think there shouldn't be any like just male more males or, lesser female all these thing I mean it works I mean it, why should it just restrict to I I'm not too sure lah why is it restricting to


most of the time will be just uh just uh, uh just guys or just men only, like even even, the races I mean the race is also an issue why it's only it's only the white skin the fairer skin or whatsoever


then in this case is also why is it, like, just an example ah ya why is it like ninety percent male or ten percent female all these thing why we can't have like fifty fifty and why I mean


does the lady can't do the same job I mean putting the, the, pregnancy or whatsoever the the menses ya all that aside I mean, just taking it as both human beings just standing in front of you I mean


can't they do the same thing, I mean they have I mean they are just a normal human being they have a brain or they have their own thoughts or their own mind, both they can bring up the same, uh, answer or suggestion or anything but why does I mean what is what are we preventing


for more ladies to be joining the politics is it because they're not interested or, is it uh, there's some restrictions somewhere or, uh or or or how or something itself ya what do you think derek (mmhmm) (mmhmm)


ya okay as I mean, thanks for bringing us to the history lesson so I mean for okay, back in those time I mean hunting or dominating all these ya correct I mean even though bring uh I mean until current


current situation or anything I don't because, being dominant in the parliament or or being uh, ego in the parliament I don't think that, also I mean, not only for guys I mean even ladies some of, them they have their ego


of being trying to be dominant as well lah, but, I mean if I, I still stand with what I think is, uh you need more ladies, to be in the to more women in the uh to be more uh to be the political leaders because


it'll be like gender equality itself, so I mean, if you have all guys I I mean, like I I I throwback the question to you ah same thing, what I mean why does the women can't do the same job as the the the the men I mean it's not very difficult I mean


from what I think it's I think it's the same thing, both have two hands two legs one one brain one mind they have the same thoughts, I mean, ya they I don't think there is, uh, uh the reason why that we should be


or I mean like just restricting it to, lady uh men only, only or ya so, there's no restriction or anything mah


ah guys also have emotion also what, ya (mmhmm) (mmhmm) (mmhmm) (mmhmm) do you have an uh okay again ah uh


sacrificing for


but I mean this this this won't I mean whatever you said I mean what you have said earlier right this won't be just coming from a female side mah the women side I mean, guys, uh I mean some men I mean men also have emotion also have feelings itself they not all not all men


they will sacrifice for one, and for one then after that uh save the rest, some will have the same thinking as the lady like imagine a lady both guys, and women itself they are both human they have the might have the same thinking


everything so, and I mean, any any guy politician may also have the same thing same idea of, !hey! now let's test it on maybe animal, or something instead of testing it on human not this will not only happen on


on on the guys, uh mentality I mean uh lady's mentality it'll it'll it'll it'll happen also on the guy's mentality mah


that's I mean ya lah if you want to dig uh history yes correct but


but I mean you we can't just based on history all these things yes I mean thousand of year I mean ultimately we can maybe we can try new things one day what if, all the remains are wiped out I mean just a example lah, there are some ya correct, you can't just depend on just on uh men's only mah


so for the opposition is humility still desirable today, for the first topic uh as actually stanley , points out earlier that the quality of being humble is it still being uh in a way needed or is it still being wanted by people around so he also touch on the thing of uh religious


uh importance, and it's actually based on more of a self proposition or his own context so, uh for the opposition wise we are actually looking more on things that is, towards a a bigger environment whether is it towards the business or towards self


so if, humility is desirable is more towards the context of , maybe towards business, because when you are actually being humble or, you are actually working in a particular company itself


when you are actually being humble you are also lowering yourself, and it might open up a lot of uh different kind of whether is it, definitely there will be help, there would also be uh attacks coming in, from uh being humble


however if let's say it's a business itself definitely, uh there will be a need for people to be humble or bosses to be humble and it's still desirable over there, however for uh if let's say it's on a personal context I don't think that humility is that desirable because even in the social media or in a lot of uh different places people are showing that they they want to be heard


so if you are being humble how do you want to be heard, so, that's why for opposition wise we feel that uh humility is not desirable for the personal context however more needed in a business uh setting


uh we do however if let's say we were to be too humble every time


we will also have a lot of people uh, like I mentioned earlier there is a certain chance that people might think, uh you're lowering yourself and, and also like you say in singapore context is just like people stepping over you


to get to their own needed position, so if let's say you are being too humble everything is uh, singapore context very #cin cai# very easy going, uh it also means to say that people can step over you on top of you anytime


uh personally, however if let's say it's uh like I mentioned earlier a business context if I don't actually check myself if I'm not being humble to listen to opinions or being humble enough to hear whatever the customer wants to tell


then I will have no chance for a better, uh whether is it service or better quality of uh products that I might have, ya


maybe I can help out a little bit if uh for the opposition


is that, being humble is like what stanley mentioned earlier uh daily life yes you will need it, because uh when you actually meet up with uh, friends or when you actually meet up with uh someone close to you this humility actually comes into play however


this is not desirable if let's say the uh setting is when I am, trying to get to something, I'm trying to get the position that I want I'm trying to get the pair of shoes that I really like, so this humility does not apply


it's not desirable during that time, so there is a new launch of a new pair of shoes for example would you want to give up this uh you want to be humble enough to give up that shoe to the person waiting the queue, or would you want to just grab it for yourself


whether is it to wear it or whether is it to sell it off later so this this humbleness will it come back to in a way uh bite you, later on so being uh humble it's the word itself is already have human at the very first three uh alphabets


the H U M so that is, definitely part of our life however is it a want or is it uh uh needed that really depends on uh a lot of uh the individual settings or situations the people might, have ya


and also if let's say the uh people who are in the business itself they do not have they do not desire uh humility, uh very soon the business will be, uh, out of uh business they won't be doing that well because first of all they don't listen to their customers they don't listen to what might be


the people were the wants and needs which I mentioned earlier, uh, if let's say that is the case, they will not be able to hit, the correct or the hit the right note together with the, customers so very soon


they might not come in or they would not want to uh patronise you, uh later on, because they just find that !hey! this this this is not something that uh I want to go to anymore, and I think that uh they don't need my business they are not


they are they are very supreme already they are very high already so why why should I actually uh patronise them some more to make them feel better so if let's say businesses can, think of a a, more human way


to uh, approach their customers the wants and the needs that is more desirable than, (ppc)


(mmhmm), maybe to towards business wise we are aligned that uh it's very much needed however for


personal kind of uh context , definitely I'm also a huge, advocate for uh being humble or being uh, having humility uh to my, friends or to the people that I actually love however for a personal note whether is it towards uh work or is it uh


maybe uh what I expect out of my uh business or what I expect out of my work this humility sometimes might not be uh playing a big part because personally if let's say I were to go look for a, a job or as we actually use the example of buying the uh


shoes and all this, all this , can you uh accept that, you don't have this, uh thing that you want, because of you being humble you gave up a particular position because of you being uh humble


or having this humility in you you actually gave up a particular position that you have been working towards to, so how does it work for uh personal, uh, context that !hey! I I should actually not


pursue whatever I want, there would be uh less drive, and there will be no, again the word desire to work towards a higher position because, being humility I, I don't want to I don't want to fight


uh for this higher position, everything I can just give to other people as well


uh I do agree that probably just now the, the example is uh a bit of a a stretch for, this particular topic itself, uh being humble also, does it mean to say that everything that people were to tell you you were to accept also


being, being humble does it mean to say that you have to accept whatever people is telling you whether is it uh right or wrong or whether does it uh is it going to be suitable for this particular situation so being humble it means to say I have to accept everything


(mmhmm)


understand however for this particular question is it still desirable if people were to tell you things that is uh whether does it suit you or not is it still going be accepted is it still desirable during that time


doesn't matter what is uh being said so, for myself or for , this particular uh understanding sometimes is is not desirable if I have uh it might be the correct uh thing that you are saying to me but I don't think I'll be humble enough to listen to you during a bad time


or the the situation uh, you might not be able to uh tell because the sometimes I am not feeling that good and you are just telling me and I have to humbly still accept it I have to show my humility to you I think it's also a bit of a stretch in a personal context


ya so during that time I don't think it's desirable, shut it


, okay


debate topic two


so ten percent of your own


so thank you for your point stanley so our second topic for the day is actually my life my choice how far can people expect to live life this way so uh hearing from stanley that uh it's his life so he also follow #bon jovi# song uh it's my life


not have someone to live your life, and advice is actually welcome, for him because ten percent actually is what he uh usually listen to as well, and I I do agree on the playing game or even uh affecting of a relationship


due to some of the choices that we we make sometimes, or even from the the advice that people might actually give, so, how far can we actually have people living like this, I would say that it has been ongoing


for uh all the while, for this uh my life my choice however what has it actually brought us, uh in this particular, topic itself I think generally speaking


uh being my life my choice it also tells, tells that , whatever actually happens around me is uh, not going to hurt, anybody except for myself but that is not the case because a lot of uh people will have


this mentality where you have, the YOLO you only live once so does it mean to say that you, uh doing some harm to the things that is so hot around you, will not have a bigger effect it does not


a drop of water, creates a ripple, across a very peaceful whether is it stream or puddle of water so , does it mean to say that you having such a small, uh strength or just yourself


does it actually have any uh effect I would say that it does, and sometimes the the effect is, quite scary, and it does affect us a long way (ppc), some of the past


uh a person's decision let's say for example hitler, he's a person, not gonna say he's good or bad however a decision by him, his life his choice, so what happens world war two happened


things happened I wanna take things into my own hands so, uh I don't think that everybody should just leave, uh my life my choice this motto sometimes it's my life


everybody can chip in a little bit, or I should actually live my life, uh better, rather than my life my choice, I die my problem no lah that's not that's not the way I


from the opposition side back to you stanley (ppc) (mmhmm) (mmhmm)


uh, I would say that they the part of uh the life decision whether is it marriage and all that uh I'm happy that you actually agree that it's not just your life your choice and what you want to do we can just do it at your own pace


and we are not influencers and we are not ministers also to begin with so, uh probably our life our choice does not affect that much people that I agree, however the the part where uh why I actually use hitler as an example because it's already in the past and the effect is the people are still living it today


although you might say that it does not really affect us because we are in singapore however to a certain context he actually stood up and feels that !hey! we should not actually live in uh poverty anymore, my life is I want to actually make things so called great again some like sounds like somebody doing it somewhere in another part of the world now


so uh I used to be an artist and I don't want to draw anymore I think that uh world domination and uh also dropping a few bombs and conquering france and all that is my cup of tea


so what what is it that uh, we get out of his life and his choices , uh people are slaughtered, and we are still having the effect of uh, bombs being uh leftover in southeast asia


so how far can we actually live or how far can we actually, uh tolerate this kind of uh, whether is it sadness or because like uh stanley mentioned earlier it does not affect us uh personally however what if just one


of the thing actually does affect you, you might say that it it has not happen yet just one of the things that can actually have a mind my life my choice, decision person, and affects you just one what will happen to you


life decisions cannot be done, because, you will not think of the other party which is in your marriage or probably with your partner , you would not actually think about, uh whatever kind of uh, things that is uh gonna be beneficial whether is it to uh your loved one or err


even your friends because again my life my choice, I shoot someone is my life my choice, I'm gonna eat something very spicy and make myself diarrhea and all that my life my choice however , what is gonna have the people the effect that is


happening after who can say, and how can how can everybody be so selfish to actually just keep thinking of uh my life my choice and have leaving it all the way, because you are just a


piggyback riding onto somebody's others other people's back as well


understand , how far can people actually, want to live like this way , if let's say I'm standing from the opposition's point of view


it's actually considered the the ripple effect so meaning to say, uh one person's decision will have a lot of effect onto the others so when uh a son actually says that my life my choice that time


uh like uh stanley also mentioned earlier whatever things that I feel that I want to do I will just do it how it actually affect is uh the people that is in a way directly, uh next to you whether is it uh your parents or siblings or even your loved one so this uh my life my choice it in a way kills off


kills off not in the sense of uh murdering someone it kills of the the the love or even the the well being of the other party so this this thing this ripple effect actually will carry out to a very very


very big uh, bigger environment whether is it to the next person's work as well, because of uh a decision that I make I caused the feeling of the other person not so well, so when they actually go out to work that day


because of the thinking of all these things they might not be performing as well so that's why sometimes at work we also say don't bring your work, home don't bring your home to work as well so it's because of a decision by my husband or my wife or my son or my daughter


that's why I am actually living the effect, so I don't think uh people actually see the the pain that it actually carries also so how far


kinship or relationship aside lah (ppc) kinship or relationship aside, however can it be actually uh my choice our lives


my choice our lives


however uh we just since this is actually quite quite a open debate also let's make it into a bigger context if one day, our dear friend in the US wants to actually start something with china, his choice his life


what happens, exactly so who is living it now, we are ya I mean


part three debate topic three


(mmhmm) thank you stanley so


uh our third topic for the day is actually the world would be a better place if more political, leaders were women and what is my view, so uh I agree with uh what stanley actually mentioned earlier that


, now currently most of the uh politicians are guys, and politicians have been guys most of the time, if not all their life, uh we have seen so many also, then if let's say I also do agree that


uh whether is it male or female, there is different uh point of views, and so, I'm going to actually put this, gender aside first and agree that yes we need more capable people


, having different kind of point of view different uh mindset different uh thoughts as well, that I can actually agree however, uh being, the opposition for this particular topic


the view is that, as what stanley actually said earlier, politicians have always been, uh #mei you#, if let's say we were to look at uh revolution


uh leaders maybe you will see a couple of female, however in political uh settings wise, uh it is only currently that you will see that uh there are more females is because of uh equality rights


or people asking for uh balance, however uh, does it also mean to say that, with more women there will be, in a way lesser mistake


uh one question that the proposition need to, uh help us out with, and also , being a, now I'm going to be a bit sexism being a guy and also being a girl so if let's say a politician is a a male I'm not saying that they won't get sick I'm not saying that they will not get ill


what I'm saying is if let's say a a lady actually has her , uh monthly thing, if it actually hurts too much it might hurt the thinking, I'm I'm saying that I'm just being a bit sexist here lah


second, if let's say the the lady is actually pregnant do we need to take her out of the cabinet, if let's say she is the, the president of the country


does it also mean to say that there is no one leading the country, so, if let's say it makes a better place to have no leaders, while there is a a female president then, nah


opposition I will still say that, as a political leader I think I will still stand with uh, male, or higher percentage uh of male


I was still think that it's better, all the sexist question


monthly thingy


ya


ya I actually agree with you, on the part that if let's say we were to actually skip the gender which I actually mentioned earlier if gender aside, yes we do need capable people so uh fifty fifty definitely is workable however I still stand with the point that if let's say


you have the PM or you have a a vice president to actually uh do the works then why do we need uh more female at uh being politicians at the first place because we do see that this will become a problem coming soon, unless you were to tell me that uh this uh lady or this uh women has already done some uh surgical thing that can prevent her from not leaving the office I'm not saying being sick or being ill


things are are natural you know, so ya that that is one, and also I I do also agree that uh, the race or even the part that uh whatever a a guy can do a a a lady can do it as well


uh whether is it uh what kind of skin tone you are true that I also agree, however, why is it that uh most of the time politicians are guys has to do with us uh again I'm gonna throw you back into history again


very long long time ago, guys are hunters, we actually go out to do hunting, we actually do uh dominate and come up with so called rules and regulations as survival instinct


to protect what is at home so what is at home our home or our heart that might be in the past, our wife our children, our belongings so these are some of the things that a hunter actually does, uh back in a time so


it also involves, us guys to actually be more whether is it diplomatically or whether is it more politically uh inclined to make decisions, that can in a way be uh


beneficial, to everyone as a whole of survival, whereas if let's say we were to look at uh more ladies to actually be, uh politicians


genetically uh for guys we are still more, uh dominant in a certain way, because whether is it uh, ego or whether is it our decision making


that has also been passed down from a a long time ago so I will still say that a a guy


welcome


uh since now is actually the open debate also, ya so, uh just now stanley you actually mentioned that uh we're not stopping we're not restricting to actually have more ladies in the political scene, what we're actually saying is


if let's say you have more uh, with what I actually gave you example for the the hunter and also the homemaker, so in order for uh survival, ladies usually would be more emotional, so it would actually uh have decisions made based on emotions


whereas uh, guys will be actually having more decisions on survival, definitely however what I actually meant is if let's say we were to make a decision whether we want to actually sacrifice a few to save a a lot or we want to actually save everybody in the end compromising everybody


so that would be the difference in terms of having a a male or a female, because uh time and again we also have seen that yes female politicians are well like across a lot of different places, first of all because for everybody we have this uh thing in us that we when we see a female we are more likely to love them a little bit more because they remind us of our mother


so that is the gender difference, however if let's say we want to come to a particular decision where it can actually benefit, uh mankind, or it can actually benefit all of us uh a male would rather sacrifice a little to save a lot whereas the female would rather save everybody


in the end then compromising everybody, sacrificing a little


to save a lot of people, so let's say for example they do a human test on a a particular vaccine, it can save a lot of people, then you have uh the other party or did you have the the female side no


no human should be sacrifice we should actually do it on other things there should be another way in the end it drag the vaccines, it prolonged the research in the end everybody is compromised what because we have to wait what


but in between can you actually say that there will be no sacrifices those that is


definitely you will lah however the the thing is, uh, all all through our history itself right the world has been uh in a way dominated by men, for better for good or for the worse uh the the


our stand off is still our standpoint lah we will still say that uh having a guy, politician is still better than having the the female because it has been proven in history, thousand of years man


part one debate topic one


okay would you like to start first, oh okay lah I can start first so I think of my perspective of like what companies are doing for environmental conservation I do agree that uh some of the companies are actually doing something to try to help the uh environment but then it's not enough


so uh the bad news is that the companies are aren't doing, enough so reports have actually found that seventy of the most energy intensive companies , across aluminium cement and chemical industries are actually responsible to up to ten percent of total global emission


thus uh these companies the big companies there is only a few big companies but then they're emitting so many like harmful substances into environment even though they're saying things like uh repackaging of their products so whatsoever, I feel that it is just a mere token of gesture


how how we improve environment when they produce products when like in the midst of production like the way they source for materials for example is not sustainable or like they use of like sweat house to actually uh hire workers in like poor countries so those are not exactly like friendly to


environment as a sense as it generate a lot of waste and all these waste are just dump off to like the poor countries


kay so to summarise your point you're saying that companies are actually trying to like use some ways to actually make the public feel that they're actually being environmentally friendly by getting rid of plastic straws


but then if you look at this problem as a whole like environmental problem like it doesn't just stem from like usage of plastic straws for example like saving the turtles but then like for example fast food chains like they produced so much food like it like at the end of the day there might be like so many food that's actually wasted


and then to add on there's also a lot of like, uh not required packaging that they use to actually wrap their products for example if you if to consume at the restaurant itself they use make use of so many plastics so many papers to actually wrap their burgers or like even cardboards to wrap like create a box to make their products looks more looks nicer but then as a matter of fact it doesn't actually boost the


no I mean like taste whatsoever all these are waste ah generated by the companies , but then they're only doing like a small token of gestures like what you said like removing the straws from like their all their products so in some sense like that gesture that they're doing is indeed like feel it feels like a token gesture rather than something that's impactful that will help the environment that's how I feel


kay so but firstly I think that companies should source for their food sustainability sustainably


like what do I mean by source sustainability source sustainably is by like engaging in actually the farmers who are who are engaging in good practices to produce of crops or that the that doesn't use like you know like uh


labours or like those kind illegal labours to actually farm their vegetables or something like that so I think that's a good direction to move towards and then secondly maybe the company can invest in like recycled materials for the to use for their packaging and if that if like extra packaging is not required for this product


then I believe that companies should actually cut down on it, it yup that's what I can think of


kay so let's use your example that you have given so you said that some companies are encouraging environmentally friendly behaviour by asking their consumers to bring the container in for shampoo is it what's what was the example you given sorry


kay so my question towards this example that you have given will be like what does H&M actually do


with those clothes that are collected , so if H&M were to collect all those clothes at then end all end up in like a landmark landfill or whatsoever that is not exactly or environmentally , conservative behaviour or effort that they have done to actually help the environment right


but we don't see H&M saying that their clothes are made from recycled materials so I think like the example it brought is great like I've feel that companies such as H&M or like


global brands which produce mass produce bad uh fashion clothing that are like fast fashion they generate the most waste I feel like all their clothings in the end like everyone were actually wear once or twice then all will end up like where will all the clothes end up


those clothes that you've thrown away like where does it end up it all ends up in the landfill thus what are the company actually doing to prevent landfills for like in a for example all the poor countries they have a lot of landfills uh countries will actually some countries will actually ship rubbish to like indonesia or whatsoever to like just dump their rubbish there


so what are the companies actually doing to help this environmental effort


(mmhmm), yup but then like what you are saying are uh some individual efforts by people who are trying to be environmentally friendly but my proposition was that the companies are not doing enough to actually encourage this form of behaviour


cause companies like what keeps them going is sales so they are the one who are actually planting lah this using their marketing tactics to actually implant to the consumers to purchase more more more


like they are the one who are creating the demand to purchase more clothes, right that in the at the end of the day all these clothes after a period of time you might not want it but where does it go like it's either get burn up in like some recycling plant or inland landfills so what are the companies actually doing to actually help to like cut down on like this kind of waste


(mmhmm) yup like this example that I'm giving is like for clothing and some uh clothing industry lah


then okay like let's look at another example so like FMCG industry the fast moving consumer goods industry companies such as Unilever or P&G like I do agree that they are doing in a lot of things too like push for like more sustainable uh


to promote like somewhat like sustainable I'm not very sure regarding this but then they are still using a lot of like one time packaging of single use plastics for example all those containers that you have use for example, detergent or like dishwasher like after it's finish you have to go to throw it away right


that's why I that's why I agree with you with regards to this but companies are not selling or not trying hard enough to sell a refill


packaging right have you seen any refill packaging for detergent have you seen any refill packaging for shampoo , is it a common sight that you see in supermarkets it's not


the reason why the consumers are not purchasing it is because they are not producing it and they're not marketing enough hard enough on this kind of materials as well so can you give me a example if you are saying that this is the right way like you are saying that the individuals should actually go out


to note uh, uh the ping I guess ping ping the companies to actually produce refills but do you really think that is like this way juncture right or is it like the companies are the one who suppose


to like motivate the consumers to use more of like refilled uh containers or products which can be refilled


(mmhmm)


let me think give me a minute


, sorry can you repeat your main point again what was your main argument, ,


okay so uh I think I do agree with you like everyone needs to do a part


for the environment but then like getting back to the, point where uh companies for example release uh this kind of like refills I think it's a good way to help the environment like by cutting waste but then, uh


for example what I meant was like the packaging itself are all mostly one time usage so even for the refills like after you pour it into the the for example the container that was, to refill it then in the end the packaging for the refill is like thrown away so what I'm proposing is that perhaps company could actually explore options


to make if ya packaging recyclable and also to incentivise the consumers to recycle it for example like by provide if you were to recycle their products in like at some station you can get some rebates or vouchers then that perhaps can encourage


like some countries uh this the people ah the people in general to, uh have more of a recycling behaviour because because like the recycling the recycling idea is not actually very widespread yet in a lot of countries


kay kay thanks for the debate


part two debate topic two


, so to summarise your point what you are saying is that it's important to help the environment but then what about the poor so if a poor country is unable to even take care of the basic needs of the people like what can how can they even help the environment


like isn't the basic needs of the people the isn't it the priority for us to put like for governments or poor countries actually like help the people first before the environment uh why do you say that environment is more important than the basic needs of people


I think what they what it means by basic need will be like uh in the poor countries for example like in africa or like some rural part of vietnam or cambodia those people actually don't even have basic needs such as a clean


water or a proper roof over their head or food, for them to consume so as a result a lot of them kids for example are malnourished and then there's a lot of people who are got poison by the water that drink so like for such countries like


what I was uh what I'm trying to say is that they themselves should actually like try to push for economic developments to help the people to get out of this stage where their basic needs are not met rather than to focus on tackling the environmental issue first like I do agree with what you are saying that both need to happen together


but then uh I do, more strongly believe that the priority needs to be given to developing the basic needs of people rather than when the basic needs are not met rather than focusing on environmental issue first


so do you agree that the basic needs of the people needs to be placed before but before the environment


but uh, (mmhmm), nope that's not what I'm saying what I'm saying is that the government needs to focus on helping the people to settle their basic needs I'm not saying that they should engage in like non uh non-environmental friendly way but more focus need to be placed on helping to get the basic needs to the people


yup, nope uh what I'm saying is that the basic needs of the people have to come first before environmental issues so let's let's take a let's take a example like for example china I think china did a great job like even though


but in the past they have might not have like environment might not be the first on the list like they did do a great job like for in the span of like lesser than one century, they have developed like drastically like the level of technology that they have there the quality of life there like they did place the needs of the people first before the environment but then now that you are saying like what I'm trying to say is that the basic needs need to be met first


then countries can actually slowly move back to do it more for the environment after the basic needs of the people are met


I think everything there's like a give and take there's a cost to like for example uh developing countries can't have a best on both world whereby they don't make use of their resources but then they expect to like generate a lot of money a lot of resources to feed, and provide basic needs for people definitely there is always a give and take situation so I do agree with you that like countries need to make a strike a balance but then I do believe that the weighing scale itself needs to weigh more on basics need of the people rather than the environment environment for a poor country


because even if like for example you have the best environment where everything is like perfect but the people are suffering the people don't have water people don't have food then what's the point of like you know having the environment whereby the but the people there is not thriving not striving


(mmhmm), ya so that's why like those things can come like I uh do agree with you like saying that the environment, world like affect the livelihood of people but if the livelihoods of the people originally is really bad then what more can environment actually do to like further worsen their livelihood


, kay


so you are saying that a good environment will lead to better livelihood of people is that what you are saying, okay, so but then you are may I know what is your argument for this point


like how so how does a good environment lead to better livelihood of people , you are saying that they have clean water for example like if the environment is good water is clean but that's not usually not the case, so if you were to look at like for example countries in africa the environment are very well preserved but people don't have clean water to drink right they don't have food to eat they don't have a roof over their head even though the environment is very well preserved their basic needs are not met


(uh huh) but then like for example the building houses with cow poo, cow poos are not exactly uh hygienic and in the long run in might actually lead to like uh the their sanitation their sanitation problem issue might actually lead to a lot of health related issues which might plague the people right so thus I don't


thus I feel that like the basic needs of people for example like the companies need to like uh provide for the people before they do environmental conservation efforts, like having the environment, in good condition is not enough and it's also not a like if there's a good environment people needs are met like I don't think that's the actual flow of things like uh country leaders need to actually do things like to push forward for growth


for so their basic needs of people are met is not that eh if an environment is good then people will thrive


yup I do agree with you , that's why that's why I that's why my argument is that countries should focus on developing the the economy to help


the basic needs to ensure their basic needs of the people are met, but then in the process itself if the environmental issue should not be like place as their main priority because their needs of the people are more important than the environment


because the topic that we are discussing is like whether the basic needs of the if the basic needs of people are not met , should poor countries address environmental issue, right


but if they're if they don't even have water or whatsoever to drink how can they recycle and they don't even have the luxury of like for example like this bottle cans of water to drink like there there are not exactly producing a lot of waste for the environment but their they don't even have their basic needs


right so


(mmhmm)


okay so you are saying that uh poor countries need to educate the people to be environmental friendly even when their basic needs are not met


sorry I don't understand so you are saying that when countries are addressing the basic needs of the people they need to address the environment as well but then you but then how can poor countries have the inner have sufficient resource to address both


if like given a scenario where a poor countries a poor country doesn't have sufficient money to fund both projects for example this is project A project B project A environment project B needs of people then how should


poor country choose and what I feel is that poor country should choose the project B which is the basic needs of people, because my argument is that if the basic needs of the people are met and like the the the people will then go and protect the environment itself so firstly the basic needs need to be met first


before the environment issues


I do agree that is not mutually exclusive like environmental issues and needs of people are not mutual exclusive but then in a scenario where the country is poor and they're only able to focus on one I feel that they need to focus more on a basic needs of the people


lah but then the example that we are discussing is a poor country a poor country has limited resources so in the short frame of time where they need to focus on developing the country


I feel that it's more beneficial for the people that basic needs are met before we look into the environmental issues


if they if they're trying to do both then both things will take a very very long time to be achieved so in this process of ah fifty sixty seventy eighty years where you are trying to achieve both isn't it better for you to achieve basic needs of people in the first twenty years


and then focus on the environment the next four years, okay end


part three debate topic three


okay so, uh I agree that the of environmentalism are the like, the rebels what they're doing is like they're going into a forest to actually chase away the loggers examples would be of of rebels will be like


eco warriors who goes deep into the jungle to chase out the loggers in like indonesia example using I feel that they are the real heroes eh of environmentalism as these illegal loggers they're there in the forest like cutting down the trees even though they do not have a valid permit to do so uh these these rebels in developing countries are the real heroes as even the government themselves are not able to prevent illegal loggers from like


hunting animals or like cutting trees so I agree that they are the real hero of environmentalism and they're doing their best and giving their all to protect the environment


yup, even though they're using violent means I think that is justified


sorry can you repeat your point, ya example of the rebels are like they I think is called the extinction rebellion so what they do is that they will have protests then uh they will make like very violent protests to actually show the government that they care about the environment and the environment needs to be taken care of


so I agree that the way they are the doing it is like violent or like to some people it might be inethical but I believe the the ends justify the means, so at the end of the day if these rebels are able to drive the message across whereby environment is protected then I do agree that then I feel that the means that the way they do it doesn't really matter


because at the end of the day the environment is protected


not exactly so the reason why they engage in violent means it's because like the local authorities have tried


to like prevent illegal logging from taking place or it go hunting from taking place but the people are not listening and they are not abiding to the law so there's nothing they can they can do except for like using violent means to chase them out of the forest


so for example if like uh this animal has already been uh going to on the brink of extinction but then the hunter of poachers are still even though is illegal to harm this extinct animal they're still doing it, so this rebels are the one who are actually like showing them like doing something to prevent the extinction of uh these animals by like even though the way they do it might not be ethical sometimes but at the end of the day if the result is like good and the animal is safe then why not


yup the reason


the reason like, I do agree with you that there might be some authorities in place while trying to do this, but then the reason why these rebels exist is because these polices are not doing enough, or in another sense like this police might be able like for example they like this rebels usually exist in poor countries so these countries like this government officials might actually be even part of these illegal logging companies which are usually conglomerates which are very rich and wealthy so they might have a influence over even the government authorities that's why these rebels are there to like do something for environment they are the real heroes


, ya that's why is when like individual efforts are not enough that these rebels exist they are born out of this reason where by people are not doing enough to help the environment and the government is not doing enough to help the environment because they are like this people who are going against all laws and still trying to cut down trees still trying to poach animals


and or for example still trying to like dispose a lot of waste into like to like environment all the sea that's why these rebels are around as like a military force to enforce and make sure that these people do not do commit such a act via violent means even though is violent but it's working that's why they're real heroes for another example will be like batman batman even though he's like a anti-hero


right he's uh hunting down all the terrorists or bad guys using like his brute force but are you saying that he's not a real hero he's doing something good for the like for the city just like what these rebels are doing they're trying their best like even putting their life on the line to help the environment to preserve the environment


how are they not a real heroes, no what I'm saying is that the reason why they exist is because there's illegal activities taking place that the government or the people cannot control I'm not talking about recycling or whatsoever I'm talking about illegal activities such as logging


that's why these rebels exist because they are there to prevent these illegal people from even doing illegal thing, by using their own means, even though their means might not be ethical sometimes but then if the outcome is good what I'm saying is that if at the end of the day these rebels are able to prevent like these illegal loggers and chase them out of the forest then isn't it a good thing whereby the environment is protected


cause these people these illegal people like if you are saying that what they're way ah what these rebels are doing to them it's like very bad lah if they kill them but then they're the one who are trying to cut down the environment right they're doing something bad so shouldn't the bad people have like some kind of judgement on them


ya the real hero is that they are sacrificing and putting their life on the line to fight these illegal like illegal companies or people from doing illegal activities even the government is not doing it that's why they are real heroes because they're putting the life on the line to do this I'm not saying that they're less of a hero but I'm saying the real heroes


like the definition of a hero is whereby they are did he or she will do something that like put other people or other things ahead of their life like more important than the life right that's what a real hero means like for example if I were to save like a


a guy for being bang by a car in the end I died am I am I considered a real hero like for them is another different uh point of view whereby they feel that they're rescuing or saving the environment by putting their life on the line but at the same time also uh they're using violent means to counteract this illegal people that's why I feel that they're real heroes


can you give an example of a right method what can these rebels do like the government have tried had done their best they can't do it


the police have tried to chase away the loggers they can't do it then what do you suggest these rebels do, okay so for if they didn't kill them but they used like forced to drive them out of the forest like that's what like one of the rebel like what rebels do they use force to drive them out


not necessarily killing them but then they use force to drive them out like isn't that what are real hero though they will beat them to chase the loggers out


yup, the reason why they use violent means is because no other way is working so perhaps can you propose like some other ways that rebels can do, instead of using violent means the government did it the government tried they use law they use fine they use jail time it doesn't work it still doesn't deter the illegal loggers or illegal poachers from hunting these animals because the cost like the benefit of like logging and hunting these extinct extinct or endangered animals outweigh the cost that's why these rebels are there to fight them


putting their life on the line to fight them, (ppc), yes that's what that's why illegal loggers or illegal poachers mean right no I'm not saying they deserve to die but I'm saying what I'm saying is that they deserve to get the punishment the rebels like unleash on them because they are doing illegal things I'm not saying that they die I'm saying that they might get hurt because they're indeed doing illegal things they should bear the cost


and I'm saying that the way they do it doesn't matter because they're able to achieve the impact which is environment the environment is safe, if that's the only way


ya because they are the one who are trying to harm this person so what the example that it like if you were to say the the environment is a human then in this scenario what it means is that these illegal loggers is try to kill this environment, but then you are there to kill the person who is try to kill the environment so is there a is there wrong to it you are saving a person life


ya, they're not killing any people they're killing people who are trying to harm the environment


like the things they are doing


then what do you suggest that they can do,


okay, (hmm),


if


I'm not saying that it take a life away but then you are using means to stop him, because


it does, because at the end of the day the environment is safe, what what's the difference between you doing like for example hurting this man or a police using force to stop this man, but the rebels exist because the police are not there to enforce it that's why the rebels are there to enforce it themselves


what's the difference, the police are also using force to stop this rebels, I mean to stop the illegal people from doing illegal activities these rebels are also using force to stop the the people from doing illegal activity


just that one have one is higher, both are violent, ya, but then will it deter will it deter them will it deter them from coming back to to engage in logging again so if I were to if I were to catch them jail them come out like then they will still come back and resume their legal activities what if that's their way of life right so the only way is to control them is by fear


the rebels ya the rebels who use fear would not kill them but use fear to stop them from doing illegal activities again, because fear is the main reason why they won't come back it has proven to work


because it's not the same no illegal loggers won't get jail, illegal loggers won't get jail they will get fine but they won't get jail, so as well as like what I said these illegal loggers they have rich company supporting them


so they wouldn't mind that few thousand dollars of fine right they will still continue to send loggers to cut down the trees, but it's not, that's why they're that's why they are the real heroes the rebels are the real heroes


okay for my from my from my perspective I don't think that, err what they're doing is just a small or token gesture because what they're doing actually uh they may not improve a lot significantly but what they're doing they're also trying to help a little so you uh from my perspective I don't think is a token gesture because if it's just a token gesture then


uh they might as well don't do it but when they do it like one company does it then if other company are influenced to do it then they will like more and more company are doing it so definitely that that wouldn't be significant improvement but there will definitely be like


slight changes to the to the uh to the environment, so I don't really agree with you saying that even though that companies are trying to sustain a environment mental conservations uh but they're also causing harm by product producing products


but, but they still have to produce the product for the needs of people but when they when their product producing certain product they may actually help to uh improve the environment I would say


okay but just for example like because nowaday people are using a lot lesser like on the plastic straws if I take it for for example like , companies are producing metal straws right so more and more people will be using metal straw like mcdonalds all they they stopped they stopped allowing people to use straw uh plastic straw like KFC all the fast food chain they also (ppc) participate like they also stopped produce uh stopped giving people around the plastic straw to use so people are


are, they're like using less plastic so maybe this is not a big things food this is not a big, this is not a big help to the environment but at least there is a slight improvement to it


so do you have any suggestion that can help to improve the environment that is that is not just a token gesture


but there is a lot of companies that are doing that right, it's like a lot of company are actually uh doing this uh environment friendly thing like , they were they a lot of uh companies are actually allowing people to actually uh bring their empty plastic


bottle like your shampoo all that back and then they will give you a discount for it, so I don't think all that is just a token gesture, for the company image


okay it's just like H&M you you also can bring your clothes your old clothes the clothes that you don't want that anymore to exchange for vouchers from their stores


but maybe they're doing some uh recycling behind


I do agree with you on the part where, where like, some companies actually ship some of their rubbish to indonesia so but you cannot, say, that just because of uh fast fast fashion then uh sometimes people may still recycle clothes what just like how you have ads and everything so we can do secondhand selling clothes we don't just throw our clothes away


right we also can uh donate it to other people that need that need but do not have the money to purchase it


but this is only for clothing clothing companies what clothing industry right


why we can't we reuse it since is plastic bottle right you can just buy the refill this is why companies come up with refill packaging instead of uh, why, so this is this is not actually a fully company's problem already this is also uh the people's problem is like we buy


one, one bottle of like uh dish dishwasher then why do we have to buy a new one the next time why can't we just get a refill packaging


yes that's why more people have to be to be buying it so that they will be producing more instead of the one bottle one right, they have to be they we have to take the in


ya if their companies uh like, like you say Unilever is a is a sustainable companies so if they're, trying to, introduced their company as a sustainability company right then they might as well they just also introduced their oh encourage each people to buy more refill instead of a new bottle right


right, so they can just introduce people to buy of course, their user they produce a lot of stuff so of of course when they when they do such marketing or they can just write it in their the, the packaging ah not packaging the bottle itself and then told tell people to actually buy the refill or make the refill cheaper then people would that and you and also refill is a lot cheaper than the normal packaging one right


this is also a way for for for for from the company side to actually, like promote that promote promote the , you know the recycling method


isn't it it's like they they make the refill cheaper so people will you were buy the refill instead of the whole bottle and, having already having the bottle at home they can just get the refill ah


and also this and this this this question now is not just tackling the company right is also tacking is also uh a question to every single one so of course we everyone have to put in effort not just and, what what makes you think that if humans uh like


they just look at the advertisement then they follow they don't what right so they have to actually the company actually have to do it so that we will know it so it's like if there is no no no more, uh the, bottles selling uh the shampoo in a bottle selling people will automatically just get the one with the with the packaging right