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For everyone who needs it. €2 a Month €5 a Month One-off amount I already contribute Close * Irish News * FactCheck * Voices * Investigates * J-TV Support Us Sign out | Sign in sections Voices FactCheck Investigates Quizzes Money Diaries Explainers Daft.ie Property Magazine The Journal TV topics Irish News Politics World News Climate Crisis Housing Cost of Living Road Safety Courts Ukraine Gaza Newsletters FactCheck Temperature Check Inside the Newsroom Podcasts The Explainer A deep dive into one big news story Sign in to have your say Or create a free account to join the discussion Advertisement Read Next More Stories ![](\\" Simon Harris plays down election talk (as he canvasses with Fine Gael candidates in Dublin) ![](\\" Teachers slam government for €9m spend on locking phones during school ![](\\" As it happened: How today\'s big Budget 2025 giveaway played out ![](\\" Facebook FACTCHECK # Debunked: Irish people were not the first slaves to arrive in the American colonies Slave trading from Africa to the Americas began around 100 years before 1619, and indentured servitude is not the same as chattel slavery. 6.00pm, 18 Jun 2020 65.1k 124 SINCE THE BLACK Lives Matter movement gathered momentum in recent weeks, a number of historical claims have been made about the history of slavery in the United States. Among the claims that have been shared is one about ‘Irish slaves’ in colonies, including those in the British Caribbean and American colonies. These have been shared quite a lot in the past week. One meme, shared numerous times on Facebook, includes the claim: > The first slaves imported into the American colonies were 100 white (Irish) > children. They arrived during Easter, 1619, four months before the arrival > of a the first shipment of Black slaves. (sic) It’s not the first time this claim has been made. In 2019, actor James Woods shared an image on Twitter with a similar claim, which included a photo of three white girls: “The first slaves shipped to the American Colonies in 1619 were 100 white children from Ireland. Truth Matters.” > #Reparations pic.twitter.com/rMRQIHXOLA > > — James Woods (@RealJamesWoods) April 17, 2019 James Woods / Twitter The facts It’s commonly cited that the first slaves arrived in the US around 1619 (you might recognise that year from the popular and Pulitzer-prize winning podcast and newspaper series called 1619). But people from Africa had been shipped to the Americas to be used as slaves during the 100 years before 1619 (see a timelapse here from the Slave Voyages database). After the turn of the century, the slave trade increased in frequency, and in the number of people being shipped to the Americas. According to this database, the first records of captives arriving directly from Africa to the Americas to be sold into slavery is in 1525. Between this year and 1619, thousands of captives disembarked in the American colonies to be sold as slaves. ![\\"Screenshot](\\" Slave Voyages database Slave Voyages database In historic books such as ‘Poverty in America: An Encyclopedia‘ it states that in 1619, 100 “impoverished” children were transported to America. This was “a radical” result of the Poor Relief Act 1601 in England, which aimed to put impoverished people to work; one of the main parts of the Act was putting pauper children in apprenticeships. This was a version of ‘indentured servitude’, where people would voluntary (and in some cases, involuntarily) enter into a time-limited contract to become a servant; by 1619, Virginia in the US state of Pennsylvania had fully developed its system of using indentured servants: > To this the English government readily assented, since, in giving an outlet > and employment to the vast army of idle classes that thronged the cities and > “threatened to; become criminals” if they remained unemployed, it afforded > at least a partial solution to one of the great economic problems that > confronted her at that time. So it is true that 100 poor children, who were English and not Irish, according to Limerick historian and librarian Liam Hogan, arrived in the American colonies in 1619 to be put to work – but it is inaccurate to say that they were the first slaves – or that they were slaves at all. Indentured servants vs slaves Indentured servitude is not the same as slavery, and to be a servant is not the same as being a slave, neither legally nor by definition. Indentured servants, for example, were to serve for between four to seven years before being freed – in the American colonies, this was a way of ‘paying’ for their passage to the New World. Many servants, according to historians, entered into a contract with their ‘employers’ voluntarily, though it should also be noted that they were often treated cruelly, and some were forcibly deported from their home countries and into indentured servitude. Advertisement Chattel slavery, on the other hand, meant that people were the legal property of other people, and it wasn’t entered into voluntarily. If a woman who had been sold as a slave had a child, that child would then be legally classified as a slave. “An indenture implies two people have entered into a contract with each other, but slavery is not a contract,” as Leslie Harris, a professor of African- American history at Northwestern University, told the New York Times. ‘The Irish as slaves’ myth This is not to say that the Irish were not cruelly mistreated by Cromwellian forces, but to acknowledge the substantial differences between chattel slavery and indentured servitude. In 2016, historian and librarian Liam Hogan led the call from 82 Irish professors and academics to end the use of the ‘Irish slave’ myth. ![\\"Not](\\"//b0.thejournal.ie/desktop/i/twitter/tweet_error.svg\\"/) ### Whoops! #### We couldn\'t find this Tweet As Hogan told the Pacific Standard magazine in 2018: “Cromwell’s ‘Irish slaves’ are canon in Irish nationalist historiography. It is rarely explained that this ‘slavery’ was in the form of involuntary indentured servitude for a fixed period of time. > You see it referred to all down the line from James Connolly’s Re-Conquest > of Ireland (1915) which claimed that “over 100,000 men, women and children > were transported to the West Indies, there to be sold into slavery” to > Daniel O’Connell’s speech in Mallow in 1843 when he asserted that “80,000 > Irishmen [were] sent to [the West Indies] to work as slaves.” But these were > rhetorical claims, based on truth, but greatly exaggerated for effect and > are not to be confused with historical accuracy.​ In the image shared by James Woods mentioned above, it includes a photograph of three girls. This is a photograph taken at Maggioni Canning Company at Port Royal, South Carolina, in February 1911. The three girls are workers, and the photographs formed part of the US’s National Child Labor Committee collection, which includes an investigative reporters’ photos capturing the working conditions for children in the US between 1908 and 1924. The photograph’s use in a meme that makes claims about Irish slaves in the 1600s is misleading for a number of reasons: cameras weren’t invented until around 200 years later, so there are no photographs of this time; and using them in a claim about Irish slaves in the US seems to be an attempt to play on people’s emotions – to mislead them deliberately, and encourage them to share the meme. *** There is a lot of false news and scaremongering being spread in Ireland at the moment about coronavirus. Here are some practical ways for you to assess whether the messages that you’re seeing – especially on WhatsApp – are true or not. STOP, THINK AND CHECK Look at where it’s coming from. Is it someone you know? Do they have a source for the information (e.g. the HSE website) or are they just saying that the information comes from someone they know? A lot of the false news being spread right now is from people claiming that messages from ‘a friend’ of theirs. Have a look yourself – do a quick Google search and see if the information is being reported elsewhere. Secondly, get the whole story, not just a headline. A lot of these messages have got vague information (“all the doctors at this hospital are panicking”) and don’t mention specific details. This is often – but not always a sign – that it may not be accurate. Finally, see how you feel after reading it. A lot of these false messages are designed to make people feel panicked. They’re deliberately manipulating your feelings to make you more likely to share it. If you feel panicked after reading something, check it out and see if it really is true. TheJournal.ie’s FactCheck is a signatory to the International Fact-Checking Network’s Code of Principles. You can read it here. For information on how FactCheck works, what the verdicts mean, and how you can take part, check out our Reader’s Guide here. You can read about the team of editors and reporters who work on the factchecks here _Have you gotten a message on WhatsApp or Facebook or Twitter about coronavirus that you’re not sure about and want us to check it out? Message or mail us and we’ll look into debunking it. WhatsApp: 085 221 4696 or Email: answers@thejournal.ie_ Readers like you are keeping these stories free for everyone... It is vital that we surface facts from noise. Articles like this one brings you clarity, transparency and balance so you can make well-informed decisions. We set up FactCheck in 2016 to proactively expose false or misleading information, but to continue to deliver on this mission we need your support. Over 5,000 readers like you support us. If you can, please consider setting up a monthly payment or making a once-off donation to keep news free to everyone. Learn More Support The Journal Sign Up FactCheck The Journal\'s monthly FactCheck newsletter keeps you in the loop about what misinformation trends Ireland is experiencing - and how we\'re fighting back. Sign up here Sign Up Email sign up confirmed ![](\\" Byline-1-133x133.png\\"/) Author Gráinne Ní Aodha grainne@thejournal.ie Send Tip or Correction View all articles Read Next More Stories ![](\\" Simon Harris plays down election talk (as he canvasses with Fine Gael candidates in Dublin) ![](\\" Teachers slam government for €9m spend on locking phones during school ![](\\" As it happened: How today\'s big Budget 2025 giveaway played out Related Tags debunk debunked FactCheck irish slaves Embed this post To embed this post, copy the code below on your site 600px wide <iframe width=\"600\" height=\"460\" frameborder=\"0\" style=\"border:0px;\" src=\" people-were-slaves- us-5126546-Jun2020/?embedpost=5126546&width=600&height=460\" ></iframe> 400px wide <iframe width=\"600\" height=\"460\" frameborder=\"0\" style=\"border:0px;\" src=\" people-were-slaves- us-5126546-Jun2020/?embedpost=5126546&width=400&height=460\" ></iframe> 300px wide <iframe width=\"600\" height=\"460\" frameborder=\"0\" style=\"border:0px;\" src=\" people-were-slaves- us-5126546-Jun2020/?embedpost=5126546&width=300&height=460\" ></iframe> Email “Debunked: Irish people were not the first slaves to arrive in the American colonies”. Your Email Recipient\'s Email Submit ![\\"One](\\"//b0.thejournal.ie/desktop/i/loading.gif\\") Feedback on “Debunked: Irish people were not the first slaves to arrive in the American colonies”. Your Feedback Your Email (optional) Submit ![\\"One](\\"\\") Report a Comment Please select the reason for reporting this comment. Please select your reason for reporting... It contains offensive language, is hateful or incites violence It contains a libellous/defamatory statement Some other reason... Please give full details of the problem with the comment... Submit ![\\"One](\\"//b0.thejournal.ie/desktop/i/loading.gif\\") Your Voice Readers Comments 124 This is YOUR comments community. Stay civil, stay constructive, stay on topic. Please familiarise yourself with our comments policy here before taking part. Leave a Comment ![](\\" Liam Dunne 8y Install the app to use these features. Mute Liam Dunne Favourite Liam Dunne Report Jun 18th 2020, 6:36 PM No mention that in the 1400s and into the 1500s, Berber pirates raided the south coast of Ireland and carried away many villagers and sailors to N. Africa as slaves. The British navy did nothing about the Pirates until they set up a base in the English Channel from which they raided the south of England. St Patrick himself was possible taken as a slave by Irish chieftains, although it’s more likely he was taken for ransom. The Romans extensively used slaves as did many civilisations before and since. Nothing special about the practice. The British empire was built on the practice even though they love to claim they were the first to abolish it. 351 ![](\\" Liam Kelly 5y Install the app to use these features. Mute Liam Kelly Favourite Liam Kelly Report Jun 18th 2020, 6:42 PM @Liam Dunne: Oh no, this doesn’t fit in with the BLM narrative. Unfortunately, you are now a far-right racist. 338 ![](\\" James Walsh 12y Install the app to use these features. Mute James Walsh Favourite James Walsh Report Jun 18th 2020, 6:47 PM @Liam Dunne: The Barbary slave raiding was serious but was later than you claim, mostly in the 1600s and 1700s. 55 See 6 more replies ▾ ![](\\" Joe Murphy 8y Install the app to use these features. Mute Joe Murphy Favourite Joe Murphy Report Jun 18th 2020, 7:29 PM @Liam Dunne: Most people taken from Baltimore were English protestant settlers I believe, the poorer Irish catholics weren’t living in the village 28 ![](\\" Conor Kennelly 12y Install the app to use these features. Mute Conor Kennelly Favourite Conor Kennelly Report Jun 18th 2020, 7:36 PM @Liam Kelly: I think that’s a fair description of someone with your Twitter account. 14 ![](\\" Thomas Harrington 10y Install the app to use these features. Mute Thomas Harrington Favourite Thomas Harrington Report Jun 18th 2020, 9:44 PM @Liam Dunne: those that were taken from Baltimore were actually mainly Protestant settlers – the natives being pushed out onto the hill land – the British did investigate and hanged the pilot from Dungarvan who had guided the pirates (against his will) – someone had to pay for the administrations ineptitude 14 ![](\\" Gems spuds 4y Install the app to use these features. Mute Gems spuds Favourite Gems spuds Report Jun 19th 2020, 2:00 AM @Joe Murphy: their ransom went unpaid. this very fact proves two deficits in the historical negationism that Liam Hogan swamps the internet with 1/ The ports where “Irish” slavers sent produce to the colonies were under planter control, and the Irish poor had no hand in it. The land and ports were under Planter control. people aren’t stupid when the read the surnames associated with Slave owning “Irish”. its hardly a leap if they planted in Ireland they did likewise in the Indies. The vast land the planters seized in Ireland funded their plantations elsewhere. 2/ The draconian and barbaric treatment and destruction of Irish catholics under the oncoming acts of settlement under Cromwell. This included sending Irish children to the colonies as slaves. 15 ![](\\" Joe Murphy 8y Install the app to use these features. Mute Joe Murphy Favourite Joe Murphy Report Jun 19th 2020, 10:29 AM @Gems spuds: I was talking about the raid on baltimore, that was the moors from North africa 1 ![](\\" Gems spuds 4y Install the app to use these features. Mute Gems spuds Favourite Gems spuds Report Jun 19th 2020, 10:38 AM @Joe Murphy: so was i Joe. It was led by a Dutch converso Jan Janszoon van Haarlem. 6 ![](\\" Mick. 10y Install the app to use these features. Mute Mick. Favourite Mick. Report Jun 18th 2020, 6:40 PM Indentured/Prison Servitude = Working for no pay or renumeration. Can be sold on multiple times. Carried out the same labour as Chattel Slaves, Lived in the same conditions as Chattel Slaves. Had fixed term of Servitude. Chattle Slaves.= Working for no pay or renumeration. Can be sold on multiple times. Carried out the same labour as Indentured/Prisoner Servant’s. Lived in the same conditions as the Indentured/Prison. Slave Condition was generally hereditary. So realistically the fixed term for the former is the only real difference between the two. Between Cromwell and James I estimated that 50,000 Irish were forcibly removed from Ireland and sold to Plantation owners in the American Colonies and the Carribbean Islands mainly Barbados, and the Leeward Islands. 215 ![](\\" sean o\'dhubhghaill 8y Install the app to use these features. Mute sean o\'dhubhghaill Favourite sean o\'dhubhghaill Report Jun 18th 2020, 7:10 PM @Mick.: James 1 was 40 years before Cromwell?? 16 ![](\\" Mick. 10y Install the app to use these features. Mute Mick. Favourite Mick. Report Jun 18th 2020, 8:20 PM @sean o’dhubhghaill: Notice I said “Between”! Ergo between the two of them alone!! 58 See 8 more replies ▾ ![](\\" Niall Byrne 9y Install the app to use these features. Mute Niall Byrne Favourite Niall Byrne Report Jun 18th 2020, 8:30 PM @sean o’dhubhghaill: James 1 was the first to send Irish prisoners to the new world. Not sure if Charles 1 did it but Cromwell certainly did. After him I think most were “voluntary” but considering destitution was a crime punishable by prison in the Cromwellian settlement, and most Irish had been dispossessed of their property and denied access to most professions, it’s arguable how voluntary getting the boat was. Press-ganging was another major issue. 32 ![](\\" Dave O\'Keeffe 11y Install the app to use these features. Mute Dave O\'Keeffe Favourite Dave O\'Keeffe Report Jun 19th 2020, 4:45 AM @Mick.: there is one difference, indentured servitude was to pay off a debt (often imagined) that was why it was for a fixed term and with no pay. The term was never fair, obviously, and was often extended for no reason at all. 6 ![](\\" Niall Byrne 9y Install the app to use these features. Mute Niall Byrne Favourite Niall Byrne Report Jun 19th 2020, 10:28 AM @Dave O’Keeffe: There was both involuntary and “voluntary” indentured servitude. Involuntary servitude wasn’t to pay off a debt, it was out-and-out slavery, albeit with a time limit similar to a prison sentence. 6 ![](\\" Mick. 10y Install the app to use these features. Mute Mick. Favourite Mick. Report Jun 19th 2020, 1:02 PM @Niall Byrne: Correct. At the time it was an offence to be Destitute. Which many women and children found themselves in when their men folk were killed or deported during and after rebellions. Because the British wanted rid of what they seemed “Vagrants” the solution at the time was to forcibly deport them as indentured servants, the Ships Captains could recover the cost of the deportation from the sale thus saving the Crown from having to pay for their removal. 2 ![](\\" Dave O\'Keeffe 11y Install the app to use these features. Mute Dave O\'Keeffe Favourite Dave O\'Keeffe Report Jun 19th 2020, 1:05 PM @Niall Byrne: thanks for the correction. 1 ![](\\" Fiona Fitzgerald 8y Install the app to use these features. Mute Fiona Fitzgerald Favourite Fiona Fitzgerald Report Jun 19th 2020, 2:45 PM @Niall Byrne: But surely there are two huge differences? If they survived the period of slavery, that was that. Their children weren’t ultimately “owned” by someone with more money. 1 ![](\\" Gems spuds 4y Install the app to use these features. Mute Gems spuds Favourite Gems spuds Report Jun 19th 2020, 6:41 PM @Fiona Fitzgerald: slavery to the death is not slavery because = you didn’t survive to produce children.. thus Africans sold as slaves on the coast of Africa and didn’t survive the journey to Barbados. they weren’t slaves. 1 ![](\\" Niall Byrne 9y Install the app to use these features. Mute Niall Byrne Favourite Niall Byrne Report Jun 19th 2020, 7:04 PM @Fiona Fitzgerald: Yes, there were differences, but they were different forms of slavery. 1 ![](\\" michael connick 12y Install the app to use these features. Mute michael connick Favourite michael connick Report Jun 18th 2020, 6:35 PM If your forcefully taken from your home and forced to work in horrible conditions that’s slavery. I’m not saying Irish slaves were treated worse than the African slaves but to call them Indentured servants is just a play on words to give weight to the idea that all white people are racist. Humans are horrible to each other that’s just a fact of life and history. 351 ![](\\" Sylvia O\'Regan 9y Install the app to use these features. Mute Sylvia O\'Regan Favourite Sylvia O\'Regan Report Jun 18th 2020, 6:42 PM @michael connick: There was little difference in practice. The hustlers are just afraid of losing their golden goose 149 ![](\\" Dáinéil Ó hÍobhair 5y Install the app to use these features. Mute Dáinéil Ó hÍobhair Favourite Dáinéil Ó hÍobhair Report Jun 18th 2020, 6:42 PM @michael connick: The vast majority went into indentured servitude voluntarily. I’d accept that the minority who were forced into it suffered a form of slavery though it wasn’t chattel slavery as they were eventually freed and their children were forced into the same system. There’s a distinction between chattel slavery and indentured servitude because there’s a historical difference between the two systems. Few claim all white people are racist which is obviously untrue. 37 See 7 more replies ▾ ![](\\" Big Smokey 4y Install the app to use these features. Mute Big Smokey Favourite Big Smokey Report Jun 18th 2020, 6:45 PM @michael connick: people in in 15th to 19th century had any need for soft language to differentiate from the various types of slavery. There was a clear difference and it is outlined in this article. You are clearly someone who doesn’t believe or agree with the BLM. 17 ![](\\" sean o\'dhubhghaill 8y Install the app to use these features. Mute sean o\'dhubhghaill Favourite sean o\'dhubhghaill Report Jun 18th 2020, 6:46 PM @michael connick: Slavery is lifelong and you can be sold. Indentured servants had a time limit, usually 7 or 14 years. 11 ![](\\" EillieEs 9y Install the app to use these features. Mute EillieEs Favourite EillieEs Report Jun 18th 2020, 8:41 PM @sean o’dhubhghaill: and the children of slaves were born into slavery. 7 ![](\\" Niall Byrne 9y Install the app to use these features. Mute Niall Byrne Favourite Niall Byrne Report Jun 18th 2020, 9:03 PM @Dáinéil Ó hÍobhair: In 1650s Ireland the majority population was dispossessed of their land and barred from entry to most occupations, yet destitution was a criminal offence. How “voluntary” was getting the boat in those circumstances? 43 ![](\\" Gems spuds 4y Install the app to use these features. Mute Gems spuds Favourite Gems spuds Report Jun 18th 2020, 9:17 PM @Dáinéil Ó hÍobhair: perhaps you should real Historians and not Librarians : The Cromwellian settlement of Ireland what do you think solace means in this context and do you think these girls went willingly OF THE SEIZING OF WIDOWS AND ORPHANS, AND THE DES TITUTE, AND TRANSPORTING THEM TO BARBADOES, AND THE ENGLISH PLANTATIONS. WHILE the Government were employed in clearing the ground for the Adventurers and Soldiers (the English capitalists of that day), by making the nobility and gentry yield up their ancient inheritances, and withdraw to Oonnaught, where they could wish the whole nation,”* they had agents actively employed through Ireland, seizing women, orphans, and the destitute to be transported to Barbadoes and the English Plantations in America. It was a measure beneficial to Ireland, which was thus relieved of a population that might trouble the planters; it was a benefit to the people removed, who might thus be made English arid Chris tians; t and a great benefit to the West India sugar planters, who desired the men and boys for their bondmen, and the women and Irish girls in a country where they had only Maroon women and Negresses to solace them. The thirteen years war, from 1641 to 1654, followed by the departure of 40,000 Irish soldiers, with the chief nobility and gentry, to Spain, had left behind a vast mass of widows and deserted wives with destitute families. There were plenty of other persons, too, who, as their ancient properties had been confiscated, “had no visible means of livelihood.” Just as the King of Spain sent over his agents to treat with the Govern ment for the Irish swordmen, the merchants of Bristol had agents treating with it for men, women, and girls, to be sent to the sugar plantations in the West Indies. The Commissioners for Ireland gave them orders upon the governors of garrisons, to deliver to them prisoners of war; upon the keepers of goals, for offenders in custody ; upon masters of workhouses, for the destitute in their care, “who were of an age to labour, or if women were mar riageable and not past breeding;” and gave directions to all in authority to seize those who had no visible means of livelihood, and deliver them to these agents of the Bristol sugar merchants, in execution of which latter direction Ireland must have exhibited “scenes in every part like the slave hunts in Africa. How many girls of gentle birth must have been caught and hurried to the * ” The garrison of Roscommon Castle yielded upon that which we adjudged moderate terms amongst us, which is, for the Government to transport a regiment for Spain, where we could wish the whole nation” Letter from Athlone, 12th April, 1652. ” Severall Proceedings in Parlia ment,” etc., p. 2148. 30 ![](\\" Gems spuds 4y Install the app to use these features. Mute Gems spuds Favourite Gems spuds Report Jun 18th 2020, 9:21 PM @Big Smokey: you think Irish women and girls shipped from their homeland and sent as slaves to ” solace” did willingly under Cromwell. we can see in committee letters dated 1654 that people from England did enter bonds as tradesmen, so show me the same records for the Irish Children. There should be a record of these contracts. WHILE the Government were employed in clearing the ground for the Adventurers and Soldiers (the English capitalists of that day), by making the nobility and gentry yield up their ancient inheritances, and withdraw to Oonnaught, where they could wish the whole nation,”* they had agents actively employed through Ireland, seizing women, orphans, and the destitute to be transported to Barbadoes and the English Plantations in America. It was a measure beneficial to Ireland, which was thus relieved of a population that might trouble the planters; it was a benefit to the people removed, who might thus be made English arid Chris tians; t and a great benefit to the West India sugar planters, who desired the men and boys for their bondmen, and the women and Irish girls in a country where they had only Maroon women and Negresses to solace them. 16 ![](\\" Gems spuds 4y Install the app to use these features. Mute Gems spuds Favourite Gems spuds Report Jun 19th 2020, 2:28 AM @sean o’dhubhghaill: where are the contract signed by Irish Children sent under Cromwell to prove this. I have yet to see the contracts for the thousands of Irish children shipped. If you think Irish children signed a contract to ” solace” men in the colonies. its obvs you are a man . “It was a measure beneficial to Ireland, which was thus relieved of a population that might trouble the planters; it was a benefit to the people removed, who might thus be made English arid Chris tians; t and a great benefit to the West India sugar planters, who desired the men and boys for their bondmen, and the women and Irish girls in a country where they had only Maroon women and Ns to solace them.” now show me one contract these girls signed as sex slaves and their descendants today. horrific 12 ![](\\" Mick Mc Ginn 8y Install the app to use these features. Mute Mick Mc Ginn Favourite Mick Mc Ginn Report Jun 18th 2020, 6:46 PM The real questions are: how did the “indentured” feel about their time spent involuntarily with their masters? And how would a person nowadays feel about working for seven years as repayment for a one way press-ganged flight to the east coast of America? Is there any human difference between this and what we understand as slavery? Put yourself in these people’s shoes first! It is shamelessly disrespectful to these people’s memory that we negate them with the headline as “debunked”. 190 ![](\\" EillieEs 9y Install the app to use these features. Mute EillieEs Favourite EillieEs Report Jun 18th 2020, 8:52 PM @Mick Mc Ginn: the children of these indentured servants were born free, the children of slaves were born into slavery. The descendants of indentured servants weren’t subjected to discriminatory Black Codes or Jim Crow laws designed to limit opportunities in housing, employment and opportunities for African Americans 27 ![](\\" Niall Byrne 9y Install the app to use these features. Mute Niall Byrne Favourite Niall Byrne Report Jun 18th 2020, 8:59 PM @Mick Mc Ginn: Agreed. It’s a shame racists use this meme for their own agenda but making light of the sufferings of the Irish who were transported just to virtue signal is insidious. Yes, there were differences, but they were different forms of slavery. 59 See 4 more replies ▾ ![](\\" Mick Mc Ginn 8y Install the app to use these features. Mute Mick Mc Ginn Favourite Mick Mc Ginn Report Jun 18th 2020, 9:33 PM @EillieEs: Why belittle the “indentured’s” suffering just because their children may possibly have had a better outcome? It is not making little of others by remembering the suffering of the Irish at this time. It is our history and it’s good that this is exposed to a generation who may have only seen one side of the story. We owe it to all who have suffered under tyranny to remember their pain. It’s not a competition, we all feel the same hurt, whatever our colour. It just seems wrong to show a picture of our ancestors under the heading of”debunked”. 35 ![](\\" Seamus Donnelly 9y Install the app to use these features. Mute Seamus Donnelly Favourite Seamus Donnelly Report Jun 18th 2020, 9:36 PM @EillieEs: Ah ya so that makes it ok then going by your stupid argument there children had a great time of it.There fellow Irish men and women was still persecuted back home, did ya ever hear of the penal laws or the way nationalists were treated in the north and were not talking about hundreds of years ago. 19 ![](\\" Michael McGrath 10y Install the app to use these features. Mute Michael McGrath Favourite Michael McGrath Report Jun 19th 2020, 1:31 AM @Mick Mc Ginn: The journal loves debunking “myths” that dont agree with the p.c narrative. 15 ![](\\" Gems spuds 4y Install the app to use these features. Mute Gems spuds Favourite Gems spuds Report Jun 19th 2020, 2:21 AM @EillieEs: Jim Crow laws did not apply in the colonies Irish children were shipped to as slaves. Why are you attempting to bundle laws from the USA into the mix. you have no evidence the children of these Irish slaves were born free or even if they survived. many Irish children did not survive the journey and were thrown overboard see Dunne :Sugar and Slaves: The Rise of the Planter Class in the English West Indies show me one example of a contract signed by these Irish children shipped under Cromwell. one! I see egs of 400 Irish children shipped in bulk on record and not one mention of a contract. I see on the same record a bonded servant from England with his name, his time bonded and to whom.. show me one for the Irish children and where you caught sight of these Irish contracts under Cromwell. 17 ![](\\" Liam Kelly 5y Install the app to use these features. Mute Liam Kelly Favourite Liam Kelly Report Jun 18th 2020, 6:41 PM Surely all the energy used up with this virtuous posturing could be better used calling out modern day slavery? More people are enslaved in Africa now than ever before. But all this is doing is being divisive and is stoking up an actual race war. 150 ![](\\" Vinylman_Teaboy 7y Install the app to use these features. Mute Vinylman_Teaboy Favourite Vinylman_Teaboy Report Jun 19th 2020, 10:30 AM @Liam Kelly: Spot on Liam. But it’s worse than just simple posturing because the noise actually crowds out the support needed to overturn real oppression that is happening on a scale that eclipses historic numbers of suffering right now …. particularly for women and children. The virtue signallers are actually naive sentimentalists, fooled into becoming an integral part of a misogynistic based system of oppression and they are complicit in maintaining the status quo. 5 ![](\\" Big Smokey 4y Install the app to use these features. Mute Big Smokey Favourite Big Smokey Report Jun 18th 2020, 6:08 PM From what I have seen online, the only people spreading this myth are the ones (the vast majority being Americans) who want to diminish the BLM movements currently happening and push a narrative that white people went through the same hell. Anyone who still believes this lie, wants to. Purely because it suits their anti-BLM narrative 155 ![](\\" Sylvia O\'Regan 9y Install the app to use these features. Mute Sylvia O\'Regan Favourite Sylvia O\'Regan Report Jun 18th 2020, 6:38 PM @Big Smokey: White slave owners are a very very small part of the history of slavery. The far left have rewritten history. 217 ![](\\" Big Smokey 4y Install the app to use these features. Mute Big Smokey Favourite Big Smokey Report Jun 18th 2020, 6:41 PM @Sylvia O’Regan: what colour were the slave owners in Europe, the UK and America if they weren’t white? 66 See 15 more replies ▾ ![](\\" Sylvia O\'Regan 9y Install the app to use these features. Mute Sylvia O\'Regan Favourite Sylvia O\'Regan Report Jun 18th 2020, 6:44 PM @Big Smokey: Some were black in the US. All slave traders in Africa were black. And white civilisations owned only a small fraction of all the slaves in history. Slavery is a human sin. The effort to assign all the blame to white people, and even worse, assign the historical blame to innocent white people is outrageous racism! 214 ![](\\" Richard O\'Clear 4y Install the app to use these features. Mute Richard O\'Clear Favourite Richard O\'Clear Report Jun 18th 2020, 6:47 PM @Big Smokey: This article is an example of shifting the goalposts. There were certainly Irish slaves. And the language about “indentured servants” meant little if you were some war prisoner or their family members with type 1 skin sun-stroke d to death on a boat or in a plantation in the West Indies. From the sound of Hogan they all went home or made grand lives in the Americas after their indenture was up. 139 ![](\\" Liam Kelly 5y Install the app to use these features. Mute Liam Kelly Favourite Liam Kelly Report Jun 18th 2020, 6:50 PM @Sylvia O’Regan: Well said 87 ![](\\" BOH® 10y Install the app to use these features. Mute BOH® Favourite BOH® Report Jun 18th 2020, 7:14 PM @Big Smokey: Goodbye Big Smokey. You got Smoked there. 49 ![](\\" jl 7y Install the app to use these features. Mute jl Favourite jl Report Jun 18th 2020, 7:37 PM @Richard O’Clear: my thoughts exactly. 18 ![](\\" Gems spuds 4y Install the app to use these features. Mute Gems spuds Favourite Gems spuds Report Jun 18th 2020, 9:30 PM @Big Smokey: you do realise you are using a tactic called Historical negationism. also called denialism, is a distortion of the historical record. You do realise books were written on the subject of Irish slavery before Liam Hogan and BLM existed. One being the cromwellian settlement of ireland By John P. Prendergast. Prendergast writes at lenght of the children and women of Ireland shipped off to the colonies. The difference between Liam Hogan, a librarian and Prendergast, the latter researched for 17 years, is published an authority on Irish pedigrees and archæology. his work bequeathed to the King’s Inn, Dublin. from his book, available online btw. what do you think became of these girls? Daniel Connery, a gentleman of Clare, was sentenced, in Morison’s presence, to banishment, in 1657, by Colonel Henry Ingoldsby, for harboring a priest. ” This gentleman had a wife and twelve children. His wife fell sick, and died in poverty. Three of his daughters, most beautiful girls, were transported to the West Indies, to an island called the Barbadoes; fnd there, if they are alive, they are in miserable slavery.” P. 287. lMorison’s ” ThrenodiaHiberno- Catholica,” Innsbruck: t659. t A-84, p. 663. t Ibid.. 40 ![](\\" Big Smokey 4y Install the app to use these features. Mute Big Smokey Favourite Big Smokey Report Jun 18th 2020, 9:46 PM @Gems spuds: No I’m not using denialism 3 ![](\\" Big Smokey 4y Install the app to use these features. Mute Big Smokey Favourite Big Smokey Report Jun 18th 2020, 9:48 PM @Richard O’Clear: In the 16-19th centuries there was no PC or soft language. If the Irish were actually slaves they would have called slaves. There was a clear distinction. You have clearly read too many “real truth” Facebook posts 5 ![](\\" Big Smokey 4y Install the app to use these features. Mute Big Smokey Favourite Big Smokey Report Jun 18th 2020, 9:51 PM @Sylvia O’Regan: you dodged my question. A minuscule proportion if even that of slave owners were black people in America. Yes other nations used slavery, I wasn’t denying that at all. But the British empire, white men, were by far the largest buyers and sellers of slaves across the world for centuries. 6 ![](\\" Sylvia O\'Regan 9y Install the app to use these features. Mute Sylvia O\'Regan Favourite Sylvia O\'Regan Report Jun 18th 2020, 10:03 PM @Big Smokey: No they were not. And you’ve ignored the fact that the British, white men as you like to call them, were the first human beings to ban slavery in all of history. Not only did they ban it, but they used their military to try and end slavery all over the world. All while black slave traders were enslaving black people and selling them, and still are to this day in some parts of Africa. And it was the Islamic Ottoman empire that was most prolific and brutal in its use of slaves. Why is it only in “white men” countries that we have decendents of black slaves and countries and there are practically none in places like Turkey? There is a good reason why. 43 ![](\\" Niall Byrne 9y Install the app to use these features. Mute Niall Byrne Favourite Niall Byrne Report Jun 18th 2020, 11:00 PM @Sylvia O’Regan: “And you’ve ignored the fact that the British, white men as you like to call them, were the first human beings to ban slavery in all of history.” Wrong. The Greeks, Persians, Romans, Indians and Chinese all abolished slavery in classical times. The Pope banned the enslavement of Christians in the 9th century. The Normans were the first to ban slavery in the British Isles after they invaded. It was banned in the Philippines and Japan in the 1500s. 8 ![](\\" Gems spuds 4y Install the app to use these features. Mute Gems spuds Favourite Gems spuds Report Jun 18th 2020, 11:05 PM @Big Smokey: think you will find they were most certainly called slaves and shipped as slaves. Daniel Connery, a gentleman of Clare, was sentenced, in Morison’s presence, to banishment, in 1657, by Colonel Henry Ingoldsby, for harboring a priest. ” This gentleman had a wife and twelve children. His wife fell sick, and died in poverty. Three of his daughters, most beautiful girls, were transported to the West Indies, to an island called the Barbadoes; fnd there, if they are alive, they are in miserable slavery.” P. 287. lMorison’s ” ThrenodiaHiberno-Catholica,” Innsbruck: t659. t A-84, p. 663. t Ibid.. perhaps you published a strong rebuttal against John P. Prendergast. That would be the man appointed by Lord Romilly a commissioner, with Charles William Russell, for selecting official papers relating to Ireland for transcription from the Carte manuscripts in the Bodleian Library perhaps try and read a real book, as i posted prior. instead of reading unpublished Librarians. A Librarian who clearly has difficulty between fact and fiction as seen in this very article, eg ” In 2016, historian and librarian Liam Hogan led the call from 82 Irish professors and academics to end the use of the ‘Irish slave’ myth” if you actually read the list of ” Academics and Professors” we find Housemaid and The Fear (Helsinki, London, Dublin) Naomi McArdle, Adare, Co. Limerick arah McCrann, London Simon McGarr, Solicitor, Dublin Ruaidhrí Mulveen, Galway this is an eg of Historical negationism Techniques of negationism “exploits published opinions by quoting out of historical context, manipulates statistics, and mistranslates texts in other languages” thankfully Irish people as aware of their History. It is the Island of Bards 10 ![](\\" Gems spuds 4y Install the app to use these features. Mute Gems spuds Favourite Gems spuds Report Jun 18th 2020, 11:16 PM @Big Smokey: Europeans bought Slaves off the African coast. Nzinga of Ndongo one example of a wealthy African slaver trader . Igbo people sold by what is now Nigeria and still to this day ethnically cleansed one quick search in google will confirm that some African countries are apologising for their role 11 ![](\\" Ciaran bolger 7y Install the app to use these features. Mute Ciaran bolger Favourite Ciaran bolger Report Jun 19th 2020, 2:55 PM @Big Smokey: but they were call slaves. See post above 2 ![](\\" Fiona Fitzgerald 8y Install the app to use these features. Mute Fiona Fitzgerald Favourite Fiona Fitzgerald Report Jun 19th 2020, 2:56 PM @Sylvia O’Regan: What are you waffling about? The British weren’t “the first human beings to ban slavery in all of history”. Who told you such nonsense? There were Brehon laws against slavery and “owning” people in Ireland long before Britain invaded here. That’s not even going back as far as the ancient Romans. Who also relied on slavery. 1 ![](\\" @mdmak33 9y Install the app to use these features. Mute @mdmak33 Favourite @mdmak33 Report Jun 18th 2020, 7:52 PM Irish people were slaves, and to read items denying this is disgusting. What is wrong with you people writing this. 89 ![](\\" EillieEs 9y Install the app to use these features. Mute EillieEs Favourite EillieEs Report Jun 18th 2020, 8:54 PM @@mdmak33: reliable source please? 7 ![](\\" Gems spuds 4y Install the app to use these features. Mute Gems spuds Favourite Gems spuds Report Jun 18th 2020, 9:33 PM @EillieEs: The Cromwellian settlement of Ireland. By John P. Prendergast, esq. Prendergast, John P. (John Patrick), 1808-1893. Daniel Connery, a gentleman of Clare, was sentenced, in Morison’s presence, to banishment, in 1657, by Colonel Henry Ingoldsby, for harboring a priest. ” This gentleman had a wife and twelve children. His wife fell sick, and died in poverty. Three of his daughters, most beautiful girls, were transported to the West Indies, to an island called the Barbadoes; fnd there, if they are alive, they are in miserable slavery.” P. 287. lMorison’s ” ThrenodiaHiberno- Catholica,” Innsbruck: t659. t A-84, p. 663. t Ibid.. 39 See 3 more replies ▾ ![](\\" Rachel O\' Meara 11y Install the app to use these features. Mute Rachel O\' Meara Favourite Rachel O\' Meara Report Jun 18th 2020, 9:51 PM @EillieEs: Most were indentured servants but there were Irish slaves 12000 (I think I remember reading) that Cromwell sent to the west indies and some to other places. That has been well documented. Indentured servitude v chattel slavery is an argument not worth having, it’s like a pi$$ing contest of which human was treated worse, I’m sure to those who found themselves in such circumstances with a whip to their back didn’t think well at least I don’t have it that bad. What is wrong with people that they take such pleasure in arguing about which group of humans had it worse, to those who suffered I’m sure there wasn’t much difference at all. 24 ![](\\" Gems spuds 4y Install the app to use these features. Mute Gems spuds Favourite Gems spuds Report Jun 18th 2020, 9:56 PM @Rachel O’ Meara: agreed it has a term “Historical negationism Historical negationism, also called denialism, is a distortion of the historical record. manipulating statistical series to support the given point of view, and deliberately mistranslating texts. 14 ![](\\" Teresa Ryan 7y Install the app to use these features. Mute Teresa Ryan Favourite Teresa Ryan Report Jun 18th 2020, 11:11 PM @EillieEs: Exactly, where are the reliable sources for the Irish so-called indenture servants. All the islands in the Carribbean have records going back centuries, so where are the records for the indentured servants? 4 ![](\\" Ross Buckley 8y Install the app to use these features. Mute Ross Buckley Favourite Ross Buckley Report Jun 18th 2020, 6:26 PM What is History but a fable agreed upon. 45 ![](\\" thesaltyurchin 7y Install the app to use these features. Mute thesaltyurchin Favourite thesaltyurchin Report Jun 19th 2020, 1:38 PM @Ross Buckley: His story 1 ![](\\" Ross Buckley 8y Install the app to use these features. Mute Ross Buckley Favourite Ross Buckley Report Jun 19th 2020, 5:36 PM @thesaltyurchin: History will be kind to me as I intend to write it. 1 ![](\\" James Walsh 12y Install the app to use these features. Mute James Walsh Favourite James Walsh Report Jun 18th 2020, 6:44 PM There seems to be some confusion about the term ‘first slaves in America’, as anyone from Latin America will tell you ‘America’ consists of more than just the USA! As stated in the article slaves had been shipped from Africa to the Americas by the Spanish & Portuguese for around a century before tbe first slaves were brought to the English colony of Virginia in 1619. Unfortunately the cruel treatment of the Irish (whether prisoners, indentured or slaves) is being used by the likes of the obnoxious James Woods to try and diminish the horrendous nature of 3 centuries of the African slave trade. 44 ![](\\" PV Nevin 7y Install the app to use these features. Mute PV Nevin Favourite PV Nevin Report Jun 18th 2020, 9:46 PM @James Walsh: A clarification on the Pulitzer that Hannah-Jones was awarded: The Times’ 1619 Project is damned with faint praise Hannah-Jones receives Pulitzer Prize for personal commentary, not historical writing 6 ![](\\" Gil Thelander 5y Install the app to use these features. Mute Gil Thelander Favourite Gil Thelander Report Jun 18th 2020, 8:27 PM So just to clarify, Irish people were used as slaves in America. This indentured versus Chattered slavery’s like debating between rape and date rape. I like how Irish victimhood can be questioned, yet other historical narratives cannot. I’m curious are the young women brought to Ireland as sex slaves not actually slaves because at some stage they will be let go, and their children won’t be born into slavery? The slave labor in the Nazi concentration camps were slaves too by that definition, indeed that movie “Twelve years a Slave”, should be renamed, as he was only a slave for twelve years, he obviously wasn’t a slave. It’s all getting very confusing 62 ![](\\" Gems spuds 4y Install the app to use these features. Mute Gems spuds Favourite Gems spuds Report Jun 18th 2020, 9:58 PM @Gil Thelander: Irish girls most certainly sent as sex slaves to the colonies under Cromwell. The Cromwellian settlement of Ireland. By John P. Prendergast. OF THE SEIZING OF WIDOWS AND ORPHANS, AND THE DESTITUTE, AND TRANSPORTING THEM TO BARBADOES, AND THE ENGLISH PLANTATIONS. WHILE the Government were employed in clearing the ground for the Adventurers and Soldiers (the English capitalists of that day), by making the nobility and gentry yield up their ancient inheritances, and withdraw to Connaught, “where they could wish the whole nation,”* they had agents actively employed through Ireland, seizing women, orphans, and the destitute to be transported to Barbadoes and the English Plantations in America. It was a measure beneficial to Ireland, which was thus relieved of a population that might trouble the planters; it was a benefit to the people removed, who might thus be made English and Christians; t and a great benefit to the West India sugar planters, who desired the men and boys for their bondmen, and the women and Irish girls in a country where they had only Maroon women and Ns to solace them also Sugar and Slaves: The Rise of the Planter Class in the English West Indies 14 ![](\\" Teresa Ryan 7y Install the app to use these features. Mute Teresa Ryan Favourite Teresa Ryan Report Jun 18th 2020, 11:15 PM @Gil Thelander: Great apology. 2 ![](\\" sean o\'dhubhghaill 8y Install the app to use these features. Mute sean o\'dhubhghaill Favourite sean o\'dhubhghaill Report Jun 18th 2020, 6:13 PM MOPEism is very much alive and well (Most Oppressed People Ever). 43 ![](\\" vectorsector 13y Install the app to use these features. Mute vectorsector Favourite vectorsector Report Jun 18th 2020, 6:14 PM BACK lives matter movement? Must have missed that one. 41 ![](\\" Alan Biddulph 5y Install the app to use these features. Mute Alan Biddulph Favourite Alan Biddulph Report Jun 18th 2020, 6:23 PM @vectorsector: Last year was the transgender rights movement, now it’s the Black lives movement, later I’m planning a bowel movement. 178 ![](\\" @QuidProCrowe 4y Install the app to use these features. Mute @QuidProCrowe Favourite @QuidProCrowe Report Jun 18th 2020, 7:10 PM @Alan Biddulph: Agreed.. . it must be an election year in the US. 27 See 1 more reply ▾ ![](\\" EillieEs 9y Install the app to use these features. Mute EillieEs Favourite EillieEs Report Jun 18th 2020, 8:38 PM @Alan Biddulph: #BlackLivesMatter was established in 2013 following the acquittal of George Zimmerman for the murder of Trayvon Martin. It’s become increasingly topical because of recent high profile murders of black people by police officers. Zero to do with election year. 6 ![](\\" Francis Mc Carthy 11y Install the app to use these features. Mute Francis Mc Carthy Favourite Francis Mc Carthy Report Jun 18th 2020, 6:07 PM The racists are going around sharing another meme which says that “White Irish Slaves Were Treated Worse Than Any Other Race In The U.S “. They get all upset when you call out their bs. 77 ![](\\" Bernard Mc Donnell 11y Install the app to use these features. Mute Bernard Mc Donnell Favourite Bernard Mc Donnell Report Jun 18th 2020, 9:00 PM @Francis Mc Carthy: thinking you want to believe this so much that you forget what was done to our own. 35 ![](\\" Michael Drennan 9y Install the app to use these features. Mute Michael Drennan Favourite Michael Drennan Report Jun 18th 2020, 6:46 PM If you want to fact check think for a moment why was this article commissioned and published. BLM radicals are trying to dismiss a myth that was initially started and propagated by a type of Irish nationalism that loves nothing better than victim hood. Didn’t Jerry Adams only repeat this “ myth” a short while ago. Now these “right on woke” people are embarrassed and want this myth retracted as quickly as possible because it’s damaging to the BLM movement and embarrassing them because it’s giving white supremacy a defense. Any sensible person always knew the whole story was bull but ask yourself why are you only reading a forensic critique now.. Propaganda for BLM. 42 ![](\\" Gems spuds 4y Install the app to use these features. Mute Gems spuds Favourite Gems spuds Report Jun 18th 2020, 9:41 PM @Michael Drennan: what myth Michael. do you think have information that contradicts the work of john P. Prendergast, 1808-1893. or do you read pop bits on website by a librarian such as Liam Hogan. P. Prendergast with works bequeathed to the King’s Inn, Dublin. In 1864 Prendergast was appointed by Lord Romilly a commissioner, with Charles William Russell, for selecting official papers relating to Ireland for transcription from the Carte manuscripts in the Bodleian Library. ) Prendergast: OF THE SEIZING OF WIDOWS AND ORPHANS, AND THE DESTITUTE, AND TRANSPORTING THEM TO BARBADOES, AND THE ENGLISH PLANTATIONS. WHILE the Government were employed in clearing the ground for the Adventurers and Soldiers (the English capitalists of that day), by making the nobility and gentry yield up their ancient inheritances, and withdraw to Connaught, “where they could wish the whole nation,”* they had agents actively employed through Ireland, seizing women, orphans, and the destitute to be transported to Barbadoes and the English Plantations in America. It was a measure beneficial to Ireland, which was thus relieved of a population that might trouble the planters; it was a benefit to the people removed, who might thus be made English and Christians; t and a great benefit to the West India sugar planters, who desired the men and boys for their bondmen, and the women and Irish girls in a country where they had only Maroon women and Negresses to solace them. what do you think Solace means, do you have evidence that the women and girls went willingly to “solace” and Prendergast was incorrect? 18 ![](\\" Teresa Ryan 7y Install the app to use these features. Mute Teresa Ryan Favourite Teresa Ryan Report Jun 18th 2020, 11:13 PM @Michael Drennan: Maybe you need to differentiate between victimhood and truth 9 ![](\\" Dáinéil Ó hÍobhair 5y Install the app to use these features. Mute Dáinéil Ó hÍobhair Favourite Dáinéil Ó hÍobhair Report Jun 18th 2020, 6:37 PM It seems that the majority of people peddling this false narrative are Americans (as opposed to Irish) who attempt to downplay the validity of the black lives matter movement. Comparing indentured servitude to chattel slavery is like comparing apples and oranges. 32 ![](\\" Dáinéil Ó hÍobhair 5y Install the app to use these features. Mute Dáinéil Ó hÍobhair Favourite Dáinéil Ó hÍobhair Report Jun 18th 2020, 6:44 PM @Sylvia O’Regan: Who’s assigning the sin of slavery to white people? Quit peddling false and toxic narratives. 36 ![](\\" Liam Kelly 5y Install the app to use these features. Mute Liam Kelly Favourite Liam Kelly Report Jun 18th 2020, 6:45 PM @Dáinéil Ó hÍobhair: Wrong, it’s more like bad apples to very bad apples. Very similar, maybe not the same… Both bad. 41 See 4 more replies ▾ ![](\\" Dáinéil Ó hÍobhair 5y Install the app to use these features. Mute Dáinéil Ó hÍobhair Favourite Dáinéil Ó hÍobhair Report Jun 18th 2020, 6:48 PM @Liam Kelly: I accept your analogy. Indentured servitude was disgusting and cruel but chattel slavery was worse and has had far reaching effects that continue to blight modern society. 20 ![](\\" Gems spuds 4y Install the app to use these features. Mute Gems spuds Favourite Gems spuds Report Jun 18th 2020, 9:49 PM @Dáinéil Ó hÍobhair: There is no evidence that Irish children shipped from Ireland under Cromwell entered into any such indenture. are you suggesting women and children under Cromwell willingly signed a contract to ” solace” . its clear you are not a woman perhaps read some real books. You do realise WHILE the Government were employed in clearing the ground for the Adventurers and Soldiers (the English capitalists of that day), by making the nobility and gentry yield up their ancient inheritances, and withdraw to Connaught, “where they could wish the whole nation,”* they had agents actively employed through Ireland, seizing women, orphans, and the destitute to be transported to Barbadoes and the English Plantations in America. It was a measure beneficial to Ireland, which was thus relieved of a population that might trouble the planters; it was a benefit to the people removed, who might thus be made English and Christians; t and a great benefit to the West India sugar planters, who desired the men and boys for their bondmen, and the women and Irish girls in a country where they had only Maroon women and N’s to solace them. The Cromwellian settlement of Ireland. By John P. Prendergast, esq. Prendergast, John P. (John Patrick), 1808-1893. 9 ![](\\" Teresa Ryan 7y Install the app to use these features. Mute Teresa Ryan Favourite Teresa Ryan Report Jun 18th 2020, 11:08 PM @Dáinéil Ó hÍobhair: Where are the records for these supposed indentured servants? When the Irish were rounded up and shipped abroad to work on plantations against their will and no pay, that’s slavery. The notion that indentured servants were released after their so-called indenture is laughable. Again, I’d like to see the records. 10 ![](\\" Gems spuds 4y Install the app to use these features. Mute Gems spuds Favourite Gems spuds Report Jun 18th 2020, 11:20 PM @Teresa Ryan: There is none. There are records for some English , name , length of time bonded the same year, 1654 as 400 Irish children shipped but not one bond on record for the Irish children check British papers and letters Online 6 ![](\\" Peter Denham 6y Install the app to use these features. Mute Peter Denham Favourite Peter Denham Report Jun 18th 2020, 6:14 PM Interesting read. There’s mention of there being both voluntarily and involuntary indentured servants, does anyone have any idea of the numbers of each? 33 ![](\\" Logan Shepherd 5y Install the app to use these features. Mute Logan Shepherd Favourite Logan Shepherd Report Jun 18th 2020, 6:37 PM @Peter Denham: I read this book some years ago and found it very interesting. To Hell or Barbados: The ethnic cleansing of Ireland by Sean O’Callaghan. Historian Thomas Bartlett puts the numbers at 40,000 voluntary, and 10,000 involuntary. From what I have read of this, there were no accurate records kept, so the numbers vary, depending on the source. 48 ![](\\" sean o\'dhubhghaill 8y Install the app to use these features. Mute sean o\'dhubhghaill Favourite sean o\'dhubhghaill Report Jun 18th 2020, 6:44 PM @Logan Shepherd: The ethnic cleaning of Ireland by Seán O’Callaghan. How did he manage it? 18 See 10 more replies ▾ ![](\\" Gavin Quirke 11y Install the app to use these features. Mute Gavin Quirke Favourite Gavin Quirke Report Jun 18th 2020, 6:44 PM @Logan Shepherd: Is that just in the Americas? And would that include prison colonies like what you’d find in Australia or would they not come under the indentured servants umbrella? 16 ![](\\" Peter Denham 6y Install the app to use these features. Mute Peter Denham Favourite Peter Denham Report Jun 18th 2020, 6:47 PM @Logan Shepherd: Thanks. 7 ![](\\" Daniel Dunne 12y Install the app to use these features. Mute Daniel Dunne Favourite Daniel Dunne Report Jun 18th 2020, 7:36 PM @sean o’dhubhghaill: He wrote the book on it. Dom-tish. 6 ![](\\" Logan Shepherd 5y Install the app to use these features. Mute Logan Shepherd Favourite Logan Shepherd Report Jun 18th 2020, 7:43 PM @Gavin Quirke: The figures are just the West Indies, and just Bartlett’s estimate. There seem to be a few differing opinions around whether all the involuntary were taken from the criminal class or not. I’ve never read anything that has claimed to be 100% factual about the numbers. If anyone knows of any, I would be interested in reading it. 8 ![](\\" Logan Shepherd 5y Install the app to use these features. Mute Logan Shepherd Favourite Logan Shepherd Report Jun 18th 2020, 8:53 PM @sean o’dhubhghaill: I see what you did there :-) 1 ![](\\" Gavin Quirke 11y Install the app to use these features. Mute Gavin Quirke Favourite Gavin Quirke Report Jun 18th 2020, 9:09 PM @Logan Shepherd: cheers Logan 2 ![](\\" Niall Byrne 9y Install the app to use these features. Mute Niall Byrne Favourite Niall Byrne Report Jun 18th 2020, 9:31 PM @Logan Shepherd: In the 1650s being Irish and being a criminal were essentially the same thing. This passage from ‘Irish indentured servants’ Wikipedia page gives some detail: “The type of labor being used in American colonies shifted dramatically after 1642, as the Irish Rebellion of 1641, the Irish Confederate Wars, and the Wars of the Three Kingdoms led to a reduction in the number of voluntary migrants, while growing numbers of prisoners of war, political prisoners, felons, and other “undesirables” were sent to labor in the colonies against their will. After the Siege of Drogheda, for example, Cromwell ordered most of the Irish military prisoners who surrendered to be shipped to Barbados. In 1654, the governors of several Irish counties were ordered to arrest “all wanderers, men and women, and such other Irish within their precincts as should not prove they had such a settled course of industry as yielded them a means of their own to maintain them, all such children as were in hospitals or workhouses, all prisoners, men and women, to be transported to the West Indies.” The English were primarily interested in clearing the land at all costs and giving it to loyal Protestant landholders who had financed the war. As a term of surrender about 40,000 defeated Irish combatants were given free passage to the European continent where they joined the armies of Spain and France. 12 ![](\\" Logan Shepherd 5y Install the app to use these features. Mute Logan Shepherd Favourite Logan Shepherd Report Jun 18th 2020, 9:48 PM @Niall Byrne: Thanks Niall. The numbers I mentioned are only Bartletts, and I used them because they are the only ones that came to mind. There are several other historians that put vastly higher numbers on it. The book I mentioned above also discusses ordinary people being lifted to fill the quotas. It’s an interesting read. 7 ![](\\" Gems spuds 4y Install the app to use these features. Mute Gems spuds Favourite Gems spuds Report Jun 18th 2020, 10:15 PM @Niall Byrne: The Children shipped under Cromwell were not criminals. They were shipped without contract to die on the island, many thrown overboard on the journey: see Dunne Sugar and Slaves: The Rise of the Planter Class in the English West Indies wikipedia can and is edited by anyone, including Librarians from Limerick. Children were sent as sex slaves The Cromwellian settlement of Ireland. By John P. Prendergast, esq. available to read online OF THE SEIZING OF WIDOWS AND ORPHANS, AND THE DESTITUTE, AND TRANSPORTING THEM TO BARBADOES, AND THE ENGLISH PLANTATIONS. WHILE the Government were employed in clearing the ground for the Adventurers and Soldiers (the English capitalists of that day), by making the nobility and gentry yield up their ancient inheritances, and withdraw to Connaught, “where they could wish the whole nation,”* they had agents actively employed through Ireland, seizing women, orphans, and the destitute to be transported to Barbadoes and the English Plantations in America. It was a measure beneficial to Ireland, which was thus relieved of a population that might trouble the planters; it was a benefit to the people removed, who might thus be made English and Christians; t and a great benefit to the West India sugar planters, who desired the men and boys for their bondmen, and the women and Irish girls in a country where they had only Maroon women and Ns to solace them Population numbers estimated Sir William Petty’s Down Survey of Ireland 600,000 left out of a total Irish population of 1,400,000 in 1641 also Petty ” You value the people who have been destroyed in Ireland as slaves and neg are usually rated, viz., at about 15 one with another; men being sold for 25, children for 5 ” Petty proposed: continuous immigration and “replanting” of English gentlemen in Ireland “until it should have 5 million inhabitants,” with further emigration to America deemed undesirable (except for slave-owning cadre required in Jamaica and Barbados and Carolina) while Ireland was being “repeopled”; 11 ![](\\" Niall Byrne 9y Install the app to use these features. Mute Niall Byrne Favourite Niall Byrne Report Jun 18th 2020, 11:03 PM @Gems spuds: Yes, I’m agreeing with you. 5 ![](\\" Gems spuds 4y Install the app to use these features. Mute Gems spuds Favourite Gems spuds Report Jun 18th 2020, 8:58 PM Liam Hogan is an un published librarian. one quick fact check of this article ” In 2016, historian and librarian Liam Hogan led the call from 82 Irish professors and academics to end the use of the ‘Irish slave’ myth” if you actually read the list of ” Academics and Professors” we find Housemaid and The Fear (Helsinki, London, Dublin) Naomi McArdle, Adare, Co. Limerick arah McCrann, London Simon McGarr, Solicitor, Dublin Ruaidhrí Mulveen, Galway far be it for me to question the academic prowess of the above mentioned, can someone explain how are they qualified to sign a letter to dismiss well documented Irish History and slavery under the Cromwellian settlement of Ireland. John P. Prendergast in his book the Cromwellian Settlement of Ireland documents the removal of the children of Ireland in their thousands, there was no servants contracts.They were shipped to their deaths. .John P. Prendergast researched his book for 17 years and certainly didn’t rely on twitter memes. 27 ![](\\" Niall Bourke 8y Install the app to use these features. Mute Niall Bourke Favourite Niall Bourke Report Jun 18th 2020, 8:46 PM Gráinne, do a bit of research. The Universal Declaration of Human Rights states Indebted Servitude is a form of slavery. 30 ![](\\" Mixer 7y Install the app to use these features. Mute Mixer Favourite Mixer Report Jun 18th 2020, 8:10 PM A result of the BLM movement is a discussion about slaves from hundreds of years ago while completely neglecting present day slaves. Ironically most are black Africans suffering horrendous barbarity right now in Mauritania, Eritrea,Libya,South Sudan, Burundi, Central African Republic.. BLM don’t seem to care about this. BLM only care (rightly so I might add)if their is a police/race angle or wrongdoing in the US or other westernised countries(black on black murder accounts for 95% of black murders in US again ignored by BLM) The hypocrisy is truly incredible. 46 ![](\\" Optimus Prime 4y Install the app to use these features. Mute Optimus Prime Favourite Optimus Prime Report Jun 18th 2020, 6:55 PM The word “Slaves” seems just wrong. These were not Slaves, either from Africa or wherever. They were enslaved people. It might seem all academic but calling people a slave, based on this shameful part of human history makes it seem that is what they were and were taken because they were just that, slaves. I’m not being all sensitive, hope I’m making sense. There’s a difference between being a slave and being enslaved. 20 ![](\\" Tommy Fitzgerald 6y Install the app to use these features. Mute Tommy Fitzgerald Favourite Tommy Fitzgerald Report Jun 19th 2020, 3:18 AM I am an irish man living in Bermuda and there is a British military base here called dockyard which is a few hundred years old. All of the locals in Bermuda tell me that it was built by Irish slaves many of whom died from disease and hunger while building it. There is also a story that a british military slave ship carrying hundreds of irish slaves to work on dockyard sank just off Bermuda with most of the slaves drowning. There are tourist diving excursions to it. 16 ![](\\" Peter Denham 6y Install the app to use these features. Mute Peter Denham Favourite Peter Denham Report Jun 19th 2020, 12:33 AM After reading up on this some more, it’s surprising that the “choice” the Irish had in entering into these contracts is considered a defining factor in the comparison. You’re talking about Irish people living within a system that brutally oppressed and penalised them, crippled them financially and was designed to exploit them. Was it really a choice? Or was it the only option available due to the poverty that was forced upon them? This article is lazy and simplistic at best. 16 ![](\\" Peter Denham 6y Install the app to use these features. Mute Peter Denham Favourite Peter Denham Report Jun 19th 2020, 12:40 AM @Peter Denham: It disguises itself as an attempt to debunk the claim that the Irish were the first slaves, but the intent to diminish the whole atrocity is pretty clear throughout the article. 20 ![](\\" Gems spuds 4y Install the app to use these features. Mute Gems spuds Favourite Gems spuds Report Jun 19th 2020, 2:11 AM @Peter Denham: Liam Hogan the librarian makes a living from it..This is his tactic. He never uses source, he omits historical facts from source, he conflates Scottish names with Irish, He calls Planters of Ireland Irish when writing about ” slave” owning Irish. He claims Irish fed slaves by exporting beef, when the Irish landless poor ate game and scrabbled on a plot that couldn’t sustain a cow. etc etc. absolutely disgusting Its called Historical negationism. look it up. 13 See 2 more replies ▾ ![](\\" Peter Denham 6y Install the app to use these features. Mute Peter Denham Favourite Peter Denham Report Jun 19th 2020, 3:25 AM @Gems spuds: Yeah I had seen the claim that the Irish were involved in the slave trade numerous times online, without the important distinction you mention between actual Irish and Planters, but I figured as much. It’s a hugely complex period of history and it is pretty disgraceful to place blame or responsibility on the Irish themselves by suggesting they chose this way of life. Like they “chose” to leave Ireland to escape the famine. 9 ![](\\" Gems spuds 4y Install the app to use these features. Mute Gems spuds Favourite Gems spuds Report Jun 19th 2020, 11:08 AM @Peter Denham: he uses Dunlop/ Delap= Scottish Planters, Browne= from the English planter line Anthony Browne, 1st Viscount Montagu.David La Touche = French Planter under king Billy, bankers. etc etc. The famine: Irish were carted in wheel barrows to the coffin ships to save the landowners paying tax. another land grab tactic was if starving people wanted food, if they had more than quarter acre of land they had to sign it over first. Its why after the famine huge swathes of land became pasture. 5 ![](\\" Mick Early 10y Install the app to use these features. Mute Mick Early Favourite Mick Early Report Jun 19th 2020, 3:31 AM This article does NOT really take on the issue raised by others. It does not even take on the issue of stories like Monserrat! Did all that Irish blood just wash up on the shores to mix with African blood after the annihilate the natives! The Irish slave trade began when 30,000 Irish prisoners were sold as slaves to the New World. The King James I Proclamation of 1625 required Irish political prisoners be sent overseas and sold to English settlers in the West Indies. By the mid 1600s, the Irish were the main slaves sold to Antigua and Montserrat. At that time, 70% of the total population of Montserrat were Irish 15 ![](\\" Jack Cass Install the app to use these features. Mute Jack Cass Favourite Jack Cass Report Jun 18th 2020, 7:00 PM Who brought in these Irish slaves into America in 1619? It couldn’t have been the British as their first colony in Jamestown did not begin until 1621. The first black slaves in America were five blacks on a Dutch ship, given as payment for repair work on the ship in New Amsterdam Habour in 1652. 18 ![](\\" Teresa Ryan 7y Install the app to use these features. Mute Teresa Ryan Favourite Teresa Ryan Report Jun 18th 2020, 11:19 PM @Jack Cass: They were bought to the Caribbean 10 ![](\\" Desmond Lyons 10y Install the app to use these features. Mute Desmond Lyons Favourite Desmond Lyons Report Jun 18th 2020, 10:53 PM Keeling fruit pickers? 4 ![](\\" Will 6y Install the app to use these features. Mute Will Favourite Will Report Jun 19th 2020, 10:28 AM Slavery is as old as agriculture and every race on earth has had members enslaved at one time or another. Slavery is alive and well today in many parts of the world. This argument about who the worst slavers were, is ridiculous and childish. Blaming the white man for a crime that is common to all races and all eras is also ludicrous. Who do you think sold African slaves to the white man? Other Africans of course. 10 ![](\\" Niall Byrne 9y Install the app to use these features. Mute Niall Byrne Favourite Niall Byrne Report Jun 19th 2020, 12:57 PM Oddly enough there is an element of insidious racism in Irish people who are keen to “debunk” this “myth” – it’s as if the idea that Irish people could ever have been seen to be on a par with Africans offends their sensibilities. They will virtue signal about BLM today but want to pretend their own ancestors had more in common with their colonisers than with subjected African peoples. 5 ![](\\" Gems spuds 4y Install the app to use these features. Mute Gems spuds Favourite Gems spuds Report Jun 19th 2020, 6:52 PM @Niall Byrne: Nice tactic there Niall. Irish people are aware their ancestors were shipped as slaves. Irish people are well educated and know they suffered a long history of discrimination and ethnic cleansing. They can see agitators like yourself attempting to denigrate and shame them when they assert their right to correct agitators and Historical negationism. Think you will find from the posts you are incorrect, Irish are pointing out the ethnic cleansers of Ireland did likewise in the colonies. 1 ![](\\" Niall Byrne 9y Install the app to use these features. Mute Niall Byrne Favourite Niall Byrne Report Jun 19th 2020, 6:58 PM @Gems spuds: You have not understood a word I have written. Try actually reading and thinking about other people’s posts before just jumping to conclusions. If you read all my posts you will see I am actually agreeing with you, but you are not even paying attention to what I am writing. 2 ![](\\" Martin Kelly 13y Install the app to use these features. Mute Martin Kelly Favourite Martin Kelly Report Jul 1st 2020, 11:22 PM Does it really matter who was the first or who suffered most . History is history and both races were treated terribly. It doesn’t need to be a competition as to who was first or mistreated most. We also need to acknowledge that we can’t deny history just because it has been shoved under the carpet . It’s like the famine in Ireland generations never really spoke of it as if forgetting about it was better than dealing with the reality that was so bad. Same with the Irish civil war , no one talked about it until very recently when everyone involved was dead . He who denies history is doomed to repeat the mistakes of history. 2 ![](\\" thesaltyurchin 7y Install the app to use these features. Mute thesaltyurchin Favourite thesaltyurchin Report Jun 19th 2020, 1:36 PM Is it racist to use the term “intended servitude” with one group and “slavery” with another? 1 ![](\\" Fiona Fitzgerald 8y Install the app to use these features. Mute Fiona Fitzgerald Favourite Fiona Fitzgerald Report Jun 19th 2020, 3:32 PM @thesaltyurchin: I see it a bit differently. Look, Britain brought in Penal laws to eradicate Roman Catholics from Europe if they could. They dealt out similar punishment for any Irish rebels regardless of religion. They overlooked some if they paid a fine or subscribed to Protestant groups. Those were undoubtedly abusive and unjust laws. But people could choose to sign a piece of paper or go through the motions of pretending not to be Catholic or Jewish or indifferent to religion. It was the policy of “say nothing” that kept many Europeans alive in bad times. You know it. But nobody can sign a piece of paper to change their skin colour. Even if you wanted to. So as I see it, black people had it worse through history. No wonder they’re fed up. Rightly so. 1 ![](\\" Niall Byrne 9y Install the app to use these features. Mute Niall Byrne Favourite Niall Byrne Report Jun 19th 2020, 6:53 PM @Fiona Fitzgerald: That’s a fair point, but just converting to Protestantism would not have got them their property back. The Declaration of Breda in 1660 by Charles II legalised all the land dispossessions that occurred during the Cromwellian war. Conversion was not simply a matter of signing a piece of paper either – there was a rigorous burden of proof and no Catholic claiming conversion in the aftermath of the Cromwellian campaign would have been believed. Conversion wasn’t really a potential strategy for self-advancement until after 1691, by which time all the land had been given to the new gentry. The scale of the land-grab in Ireland was unparalled in any other European country and was not simply about religion. The Irish had long been characterised as barbarous by the English, even prior to the Reformation, but religion added fuel to the fire and provided a surfeit of justification for the theft. 1 See 1 more reply ▾ ![](\\" Gems spuds 4y Install the app to use these features. Mute Gems spuds Favourite Gems spuds Report Jun 19th 2020, 6:57 PM @Fiona Fitzgerald: sorry Fiona, try again, show me the papers that Irish children signed under Cromwell. you must have some idea where they are held. 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Irish people were the first slaves to arrive in the American colonies and arrived in 1619