Against that opinion, Morotada stated that the task and treatment of 'suino' were under 'the new rules' made during the Keicho era, but were stipulated by Ieyasu TOKUGAWA for restoring the Imperial court; therefore, 'kyokumu' and 'kanmu' had to comply with it.
これに対して職忠は現在の出納の職掌・待遇は慶長年間の「新儀」であることは認めた上で、これは東照大権現（徳川家康）が朝廷再興のために定めたものであり、局務や官務はこれに従うべきであると反論した。