{"action":"created","issue":{"url":"https://api.github.com/repos/NETMF/netmf-interpreter/issues/491","repository_url":"https://api.github.com/repos/NETMF/netmf-interpreter","labels_url":"https://api.github.com/repos/NETMF/netmf-interpreter/issues/491/labels{/name}","comments_url":"https://api.github.com/repos/NETMF/netmf-interpreter/issues/491/comments","events_url":"https://api.github.com/repos/NETMF/netmf-interpreter/issues/491/events","html_url":"https://github.com/NETMF/netmf-interpreter/issues/491","id":170402869,"number":491,"title":"Manifest for .NETMF (the current state and the future we want for it)","user":{"login":"josesimoes","id":1881520,"avatar_url":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/1881520?v=3","gravatar_id":"","url":"https://api.github.com/users/josesimoes","html_url":"https://github.com/josesimoes","followers_url":"https://api.github.com/users/josesimoes/followers","following_url":"https://api.github.com/users/josesimoes/following{/other_user}","gists_url":"https://api.github.com/users/josesimoes/gists{/gist_id}","starred_url":"https://api.github.com/users/josesimoes/starred{/owner}{/repo}","subscriptions_url":"https://api.github.com/users/josesimoes/subscriptions","organizations_url":"https://api.github.com/users/josesimoes/orgs","repos_url":"https://api.github.com/users/josesimoes/repos","events_url":"https://api.github.com/users/josesimoes/events{/privacy}","received_events_url":"https://api.github.com/users/josesimoes/received_events","type":"User","site_admin":false},"labels":[{"url":"https://api.github.com/repos/NETMF/netmf-interpreter/labels/Discussion","name":"Discussion","color":"0052cc"}],"state":"open","locked":false,"assignee":null,"assignees":[],"milestone":null,"comments":15,"created_at":"2016-08-10T12:17:22Z","updated_at":"2016-08-12T18:08:06Z","closed_at":null,"body":"This is the result of an ongoing reflection with a bunch of .NETMF friends/supporters/users that's been happening in the past weeks. \r\nUnderstand that we are doing this with a positive and constructive attitude. We are not grumping or saying it just because we want to criticize. \r\n\r\nConsiderations and the current state:\r\n- NETMF is a truly awesome framework with an incredible potential for commercial, hobbyist and learning scenarios.  \r\n\r\n- Microsoft (for reasons that are not perfectly clear or made public) hasn’t be showing any love for this project for quite some time. \r\n\r\n- The move to GitHub was supposed to improve the community engagement and make the workflow easier. After more than one year none of that has become a reality. \r\n\r\n- Right now, as someone nicely put it, NETMF is going through an Ice Age. It sure looks like a zombie project, wandering and headed to nowhere. \r\n\r\n- NETMF announces itself as an \"Open Source\" project. Considering all the implications and ramifications that designation carries, this is not the reality we can see today. \r\n\r\n- There are a lot of smart, valuable and knowledgeable people out there who are willing to contribute. Those should be encouraged to do so and brought on board. \r\n\r\n  \r\n\r\nWhat should change: \r\n\r\n- NETMF should become a true \"Open Source\" project. Steered by the community involved and managed by a team of people.  \r\n\r\n- There should be a full team behind it. With roles assigned, clear tasks defined and expectations set.  \r\n\r\n- A roadmap should exist. The community must have a saying on the direction of the project, what features are required, what needs to be changed or improved.  \r\n\r\n- Issues should be answered and handled in a timely and respectful fashion. Pull requests should be encouraged and evaluated with a positive and constructive attitude. Contributions should be encouraged and cherished. \r\n\r\n- Microsoft (probably through the .NET Foundation) should be asked for their open support. Institutional support, that's for sure. But not only. Ideally they should be asked to contribute by marketing NETMF, making noise about it, mention it in Channel 9, Twitter, blogs and such. It wouldn’t hurt to commit a few more people to the project. \r\n\r\n- NETMF should be brought under the spot light, front and centre. Needs to be shown and be seen by makers, schools, universities and companies. Needs to be mentioned in the social networks. Needs to show that it's alive and has potential. A lot of potential! \r\n"},"comment":{"url":"https://api.github.com/repos/NETMF/netmf-interpreter/issues/comments/239518955","html_url":"https://github.com/NETMF/netmf-interpreter/issues/491#issuecomment-239518955","issue_url":"https://api.github.com/repos/NETMF/netmf-interpreter/issues/491","id":239518955,"user":{"login":"Michaelb-NGC","id":20993748,"avatar_url":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/20993748?v=3","gravatar_id":"","url":"https://api.github.com/users/Michaelb-NGC","html_url":"https://github.com/Michaelb-NGC","followers_url":"https://api.github.com/users/Michaelb-NGC/followers","following_url":"https://api.github.com/users/Michaelb-NGC/following{/other_user}","gists_url":"https://api.github.com/users/Michaelb-NGC/gists{/gist_id}","starred_url":"https://api.github.com/users/Michaelb-NGC/starred{/owner}{/repo}","subscriptions_url":"https://api.github.com/users/Michaelb-NGC/subscriptions","organizations_url":"https://api.github.com/users/Michaelb-NGC/orgs","repos_url":"https://api.github.com/users/Michaelb-NGC/repos","events_url":"https://api.github.com/users/Michaelb-NGC/events{/privacy}","received_events_url":"https://api.github.com/users/Michaelb-NGC/received_events","type":"User","site_admin":false},"created_at":"2016-08-12T18:08:05Z","updated_at":"2016-08-12T18:08:05Z","body":"@josesimoes, @smaillet-ms \r\n\r\nFirst, I want to echo the comment\r\n\r\n> NETMF is a truly awesome framework with an incredible potential for commercial, hobbyist and learning scenarios. \r\n\r\nSecond, from everything I've read on pretty much any of the forums, can be distilled down to there is only so much resources, and anything can be done (to steal a quote from GHI's forum), if we put enough coins in the slot.\r\n\r\nIf I may, I would like to provide a few comments, based on the position of being an end user of embedded boards for Industry.  Just to provide an understanding where these comments are coming from, I am neither a programmer, or hardware designer, although dabbled in both at the last company I worked at, and in starting my own company, I've had to do both.  In general, I believe in learning enough to be able to do prototypes, and then have enough understanding to be able to find the expertise to hand off the cleanup to and avoid hiring those that just know a few buzzwords.  I'm in the unique position, where I attempted to sell a product, based off of .Netmf to a really big company, and instead of buying working systems, they bought the entire company, as they are their own customer for the next 3 years.  \r\n\r\n> I think that everyone involved kind of figured it out that NETMF is not a Microsoft product for a long time. \r\n\r\nAs we scale up and start doing production run's, trying to choose which platform to develop in, is definitely cause for concern.  The whole reason behind choosing .Netmf at the start, was the belief that Microsoft was supporting it.  To say Netmf & Llilum isn't a Microsoft product, goes completely against the grain of any of the source code that I open up, look at,, and the first line is \"// Copyright (c) Microsoft Corporation.    All rights reserved.\"  As an average / new user, buying a board off the shelf, well,, maybe I didn't read the fine print.\r\n\r\nSecondly, it is my understanding that .Netmf doesn't compile / debug, under any other compiler other than Visual Studio.  Just as an example, I get that GHI has RLP ability, but again, as far as I understand Visual Studio doesn't support debugging of RLP code, which leads me back to my understanding that Microsoft needs to be in the picture.  The point I'm trying to make,, is whether it's Llilium, RLP, NETMF, Microsoft seems to need to be part of the solution.\r\n\r\n> I am willing to put my hand up to help in anyway i can so that NETMF gets more traction and has a bright future as it as an outstanding solution for many embedded projects.\r\n\r\nWhat I'm seeing from my part of the industry, is that Silicon is rapidly becoming so fast / cheap, that even if .Netmf isn't the fastest, or smallest, the time to market for leveraging off of the Visual Studio environment far outweighs the advantages of a smaller/faster compiler.  Something as silly as just the amount of Example Code that exists for it already, is worth a significant amount of money.\r\n\r\n>I'd like to contribute very much, but entering costs are just too high for me.\r\n\r\nI agree with both the above statements.  I will use both the GIF bug, and the SSL bugs as real case examples that I've ran up against,, and I know many others using Netmf has ran up against.  I spent 2 weeks trying to figure out how to get Netmf to open up a GIF as its the only format within Netmf that supports transparencies.  A large part of that time was downloading the source code, trying to understand the directory structures and then trying to get it to compile.  Admittedly I'd had very little experience with Netmf at that point,, so some of it was learning in general (ie what each bit means in a gif file), but managed to finally understand enough of it that I didn't fix the bug, but figured out a work around.  \r\n\r\nThe specific point I'm trying to get at, is with the difficulty in getting it to compile, it wasn't worth actually fixing it in the code for the benefit of all because I got it to work.  Secondly, given my coding skills, while I get things to work, I wouldn't feel comfortable with it being a final solution as I understand what I don't know, but there is not really any method to be able submit rough working corrections, and have someone clean them up to fit with all the existing standards.  \r\n\r\nThe next bug being SSL, we spent approximately 10k on trying to fix that one, because we didn't know just how deep the waters were, although to be fair an outstanding issue like that is an itch that I just can't help but scratch.  As a short term work around, we ended up establishing SSL tunnels from  cellular modems back to the server, Long term, that isn't a final solution.  So my options are bite the bullet & hire a full time programmer to dig into the issue, move to a different base such as Unix, or pay someone to do it.  Given the in depth nature of that bug, my preferred solution would be to pay someone from Microsoft, or potentially GHI, that already has the skills to address it.  \r\n\r\nInstead of simply complaining, I'd like to throw out a few suggestions to address some of what I've brought up.\r\n\r\n1. I know there aren't a lot of programmers out there, that are at the level of maintaining the code base to a rigid structure, so echo that there should be a core team of programmers dedicated to it.  Easy to say, but nobody wants to work for free.  There are several issues that I know as a company I need to get solved, and I am not against paying towards getting them solved, although if the community as a whole benefits, then why should a couple of companies foot the bill, (including Microsoft, in reference to additional features if Microsoft wants to use Netmf for its own use.)  I propose setting up a Kickstarter project, with items added in, a cost assigned to them, and as they are funded they get knocked off,,, the more coins,,, the more it gets done.  Unfortunately,,, I believe Microsoft would need to take a lead role in this, simply because they would have the understanding of what realistic costs would be.  I know the first three items I'd be willing to help fund is the SSL bug, A single downloadable solution, that compiles out of the box for one of the off the shelf boards that you can get from mouser, and a rush on increased documentation.\r\n\r\n2.  Another thought that echos comments made above is to raise awareness of Netmf.  If I could get a couple more volunteers to chime in, I would have absolutely no problem to dedicating 10-20 hours a month in this pursuit.  I'm just throwing this out there to get some feedback, so please feel free to offer modifications or suggestions but the important thing is I think I can justify where the coins come from. Assemble some sort of robotic kit,,, something that would be 'cool' to I don't know,,, a 14'ish year old child.  Maybe something that could be controlled from a smart phone,,, but in basic parts, so that out of the box, 1hr work,, its functioning and have them hooked.  But,, also leave it open enough, that more things can easily be added, customized,,, (sound like me ripping off the birth of Gadgeteer anyone?)  I'd be willing to spend my time to both, a) Contact schools around the country, and get submissions from the schools that wanted kits,, free of monetary charge.  The only cost would be they have to submit, online, a video / write up of what they accomplished., especially as they request more sensors ect.  That way, its minimized the amount of hardware that would never get used.   b) As I've been in the agricultural community for about 10ish years,,, and have a lot of contacts inside it.  I'm pretty sure,, that I could go to them, soliciting them for donations, to provide educational tools to children that otherwise would never have.  I'd then go to Microsoft,, ask them to match the donations,,, and probably Arrow / Future / Digikey / Arm manufacturer's, ect to donate the materials.   I'm actually thinking that if you picked the top,, i don't know,, 10 most creative uses,,, it would make a pretty interesting competition.   \r\n\r\nThis isn't something that I could do all on my own,,, but I am definitely willing to volunteer my time on fundraising,, building support at the educational level,,, and even offering to donate some time if a child has demonstrated that they have taken the project to a serious level,  providing mentoring for a child in the creation of a custom board / sensor,, ect,, \r\n\r\nI can get a commitment from Microsoft to help support it,,, \r\nA few people to assist with putting the kit together,, someone to help with the marketing,\r\nA commitment from GHI (or other vendor?) to manufacture the materials,,, at or close to cost?  As a side benefit, some of those neat Gadgeteer modules might come back..\r\n\r\nIts just a thought,,, but given that Gadgeteer was born out of schools, gets kids involved in programming,  and would build support for NETMF,,, thought I'd put it out there...\r\n"}}
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