{"action":"created","issue":{"url":"https://api.github.com/repos/nvaccess/nvda/issues/5976","repository_url":"https://api.github.com/repos/nvaccess/nvda","labels_url":"https://api.github.com/repos/nvaccess/nvda/issues/5976/labels{/name}","comments_url":"https://api.github.com/repos/nvaccess/nvda/issues/5976/comments","events_url":"https://api.github.com/repos/nvaccess/nvda/issues/5976/events","html_url":"https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/5976","id":155931143,"number":5976,"title":"Reordering Main Menu Structure In NVDA","user":{"login":"Elshara","id":12810222,"avatar_url":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/12810222?v=3","gravatar_id":"","url":"https://api.github.com/users/Elshara","html_url":"https://github.com/Elshara","followers_url":"https://api.github.com/users/Elshara/followers","following_url":"https://api.github.com/users/Elshara/following{/other_user}","gists_url":"https://api.github.com/users/Elshara/gists{/gist_id}","starred_url":"https://api.github.com/users/Elshara/starred{/owner}{/repo}","subscriptions_url":"https://api.github.com/users/Elshara/subscriptions","organizations_url":"https://api.github.com/users/Elshara/orgs","repos_url":"https://api.github.com/users/Elshara/repos","events_url":"https://api.github.com/users/Elshara/events{/privacy}","received_events_url":"https://api.github.com/users/Elshara/received_events","type":"User","site_admin":false},"labels":[{"url":"https://api.github.com/repos/nvaccess/nvda/labels/wontfix","name":"wontfix","color":"ffffff"}],"state":"closed","locked":false,"assignee":null,"milestone":null,"comments":6,"created_at":"2016-05-20T10:16:22Z","updated_at":"2016-05-21T09:37:33Z","closed_at":"2016-05-20T10:34:45Z","body":"The Main menu shows 3 sub menus preferences, tools and help within NVDA. The next 4 options should be in its own sub menu called configuration or configurations. The next option, donate, should be in the help menu. The exit dialogue, should be in its own sub menu, exit and restart, exit and restart with add ons disabled, exit NVDA. This will make it much cleaner and easier as a whole."},"comment":{"url":"https://api.github.com/repos/nvaccess/nvda/issues/comments/220768543","html_url":"https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/5976#issuecomment-220768543","issue_url":"https://api.github.com/repos/nvaccess/nvda/issues/5976","id":220768543,"user":{"login":"Elshara","id":12810222,"avatar_url":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/12810222?v=3","gravatar_id":"","url":"https://api.github.com/users/Elshara","html_url":"https://github.com/Elshara","followers_url":"https://api.github.com/users/Elshara/followers","following_url":"https://api.github.com/users/Elshara/following{/other_user}","gists_url":"https://api.github.com/users/Elshara/gists{/gist_id}","starred_url":"https://api.github.com/users/Elshara/starred{/owner}{/repo}","subscriptions_url":"https://api.github.com/users/Elshara/subscriptions","organizations_url":"https://api.github.com/users/Elshara/orgs","repos_url":"https://api.github.com/users/Elshara/repos","events_url":"https://api.github.com/users/Elshara/events{/privacy}","received_events_url":"https://api.github.com/users/Elshara/received_events","type":"User","site_admin":false},"created_at":"2016-05-21T09:37:33Z","updated_at":"2016-05-21T09:37:33Z","body":"I've been using NVDA long before the donate button was introduced. IT\nshould've been important then in 2006 rather than it's introduction I\nbelieve was back in 2013 and earlier if this is to be taken seriously.\nI don't particularly care how many corporate grants the software gets.\nThe donate page is visible in two places on the website. Free products\ncome with the expectancy that for normal use, all support based items\nare located in one area. Otherwise, there'd be no help menu as such,\nand everything would be located in one menu for easy access. What's\nmore, the donate button is what appears every single time someone\nwants to download a copy of NVDA from the website. I think it's a\nlittle excessive. Considering I'd be more inclined to donate if I\ndidn't have to see it every time I open up the NVDA menu. This is the\nreason why I rarely use it, not because it exists, but because I\nhardly have enough money to keep up with internet costs per ISP let\nalone shell out money to projects like this. Besides, corporate funds\nshould keep this project going for a long while. I don't forget why\nit's free, but too much focus on the fact that it's a free product\ngives off the impression that other companies who offer paid software\nthat does the same thing are trying to shut it down. Consumers who use\nit, as it is who it is targeted towards, want the ability to freely\nsupport a project. I mean the donate button is more easy to find than\nthe NVDA community forums. It just sends the wrong message to people\nwho download it, that the pay pal button is easier to find than the\nsupport page, which is paid support usually. I'm speaking from\nexperience, the best way to go about donations is to crowd source\nevents. I've ran websites before where I've even charged money, and it\nnever works out no matter how in your face it is. People start to lose\ninterest the second they have to see it pop up every day in their\nmenus. The software may be closed source, but it is hosted on source\nforge, they can't even provide their own server to download it direct\nfrom their website. And you have to skip past the donate function just\nto download it. It never used to be this way from 2006 to about 2011\nmaybe somewhere in 2012 I mean what does it cost to host a static\nwebsite, $4.00 a month? Development costs are paid for by corporations\nnow as the software has grown. I just think that the way money is\npoured into this project should look as professional as what it's\ntarget audience would be inclined to use it for. Donations aside, it\nmakes more sense to structure things based on where people would look\nto find them in a menu rather than otherwise. You don't see Skype or\nMozilla Firefox doing this and it's downloaded a lot more than NVDA. I\ndon't want to see it fail, quite the contrary, it's better by far than\nJaws or Window Eyes, let alone Dolphin Supernova. In fact I'm\nsurprised given the release of Windows 10, Microsoft isn't\nincorporating it as a link in a help file on their page, but they\nwould Jaws. Their own narrator product does little to support any\naccessibility features. So is it kick ass awesome? Yes. But little\nissues like this if at least considered, would go a long way in\nimproving it's look as well as its use in my opinion.\n\nOn 21/05/2016, josephsl <notifications@github.com> wrote:\n> Hi,\n>\n> The following response may not be related to programming, but it is\n> nevertheless important to think about:\n>\n> User experience, convenience and familiarity are all important. But what's\n> more important is intentions as to why NV Access has placed these options in\n> a specific order.\n>\n> Donation portal: As pointed out by people, \"donate\" item was placed in the\n> main menu in order to emphasize the fact that NVDA is a donation-based\n> project (that is, NVDA follows the principle that \"there is no free lunch\";\n> in other words, to the world, NVDA is advertised as a free product, in\n> reality, it is a partially paid screen reader in the form of voluntary\n> donations). If NVDA was considered a general open-source project, NV Access\n> would have placed \"donate\" item somewhere else, or could have mentioned it\n> briefly in one of the dialogs. However, we need to remember that NonVisual\n> Desktop Access is a specialized open-source project, a project designed by\n> people with disabilities for both the general public and special audiences:\n>\n> * General public: To educate the world regarding accessibility and potential\n> people with disabilities have.\n> * Special audience: for blind and visually impaired people regardless of\n> income level. We're talking about giving a second chance for our audience of\n> 300 plus million global citizens, a significant percentage of the global\n> population.\n>\n> Thus, I'm of the opinion that \"donate\" item must stay where it is now.\n>\n> Regarding exit options: I'd like to give a counterexample: When you wish to\n> quit JAWS for Windows, do you go through a menu of exit/restart options, or\n> do you press JAWS+F4 and answer affirmative when prompted? Another\n> counterexample is Firefox: Is there a menu of options that will allow you to\n> restart Firefox anytime you want?\n>\n> The answers to these questions will let you know what is better: convenience\n> and following trends just because it's cool, or thinking about user\n> experience and using what's best for general cases. As a software developer,\n> I believe it is much better to be flexible - keeping up with trends is fine\n> for some; the real question is how to adopt it to help vast majority of the\n> audience we are serving. Personally, I'd rather keep it as is - Window's own\n> shutdown dialog follows this principle (the one that appears when you press\n> Alt+F4 from desktop).\n>\n> To summarize, as a person with some experience with public speaking and\n> analyzing messages, I view each NVDA menu item (or submenus) carry a\n> distinctive yet unified message:\n>\n> * Preferences: flexibility.\n> * Tools: Hidden gems.\n> * Help: Giving assistance via various channels and glimpsing the past,\n> present and future.\n> * Config profiles: New possibilities.\n> * Virous config settings items: Convenience place to start troubleshooting\n> config issues.\n> * Donate: There is no such thing as a completely free screen reader.\n> * Exit: A way to close NVDA or start of a journey for troubleshooting\n> various issues.\n>\n> Because each of these items serve as a carrier of messages advertising an\n> aspect of NVDA, moving them around could mean changing how NVDA is presented\n> to users, developers, to the world and to our posterity. In other words,\n> when you are asking for reordering menu structure of NVDA, what you are\n> really asking (to me) is changing the messages NVDA carries and how NVDA is\n> presented to the world. You could say that reordering things allows NVDA to\n> have a fresher look, and that it will allow people to appreciate the fact\n> that NV Access cares a lot about organization of user interface items to\n> make it more appealing. I do agree that logical organization of interface\n> structure is good when viewed from users' and designers' perspectives, but\n> when we're dealing with a product that is serving as an essential companion\n> for many people around the world (many of them who have scattered knowledge\n> of how computers and interfaces work), I think it would not be beneficial\n> (it could be useful now, but\n>   I see a cloudy sky down the road). Thus I would like to vote that this\n> request be turned down for the time being - NVDA menu is a window into\n> NVDA's power, potential and features, a carrier of various messages NVDA\n> wishes to disclose.\n>\n> Lastly, I'd like to use this ticket to address something that has been in my\n> mind for a while: I and other NVDA contributors appreciate the fact that we\n> have enthusiastic supporters who have provided wonderful suggestions. At the\n> same time, I'm feeling uneasy regarding some of the suggestions we've\n> received, some of them making us shake our heads. As I've addressed in the\n> CAPTCHA ticket, it is better for a piece of software to become an expert in\n> what it does, and for this expert to receive assistance from others when it\n> is truly needed. This is one of the reasons why I appreciate the fact that\n> we have add-ons.\n>\n> The other thing I'd like to bring up is thinking critically before posting\n> things. I do know that people have thought about these wonderful\n> suggestions, and I'm grateful for thought-provoking conversations we had\n> over these tickets. But I feel we could have done better - perhaps thinking\n> about what the other side would say, possible impact of our suggestions\n> (especially to someone living halfway around the globe who may have never\n> heard about NVDA or just getting started with it), long-range goals, feature\n> design and so on. This was the reason why I approached exit options like\n> that - to let you think about it for a second, and I intend to approach\n> other tickets like what I wrote above so we can get started on a path\n> towards more thoughtful suggestions and bug reports. I do know that we are\n> blunt at times, but I think what saves our face is respecting someone,\n> especially respecting the thoughts of your audience (thus I personally\n> become sensitive over word choice, details and so on,\n>  as I firmly believe that Github tickets are historical artifacts, a\n> collection of public information, a public relations tool for NVDA project,\n> and an aspect of NVDA that'll decide our reputation for years to come).\n>\n> Thank you.\n>\n> ---\n> You are receiving this because you authored the thread.\n> Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHub:\n> https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/5976#issuecomment-220765879\n"}}
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