you know, through rote memorization. It's knowing where to find that information in your book that is going to, that is going to cause you to be successful and taking that examination. Okay. Now, I bet Pam that you would have had a perfectly great career even without your APC certifications. Then we see and we've learned that your membership at NAPC has helped you become a mentor and be seen as a subject matter expert, which you are. How did your certification for certifications help you professionally? Well, one way was that in my organization, that certification was a requirement, you know, so what I'm finding and what I hold with my own team is that there must be at least one certification in place in order to even apply for any of the jobs in my department and actually I believe also for any of the jobs in the coding departments throughout all of Maine Health and I know other hospitals and medical practices expect the same. And also including potentially other specialty certifications like CPMA or the medical specialty in which the quota will be working in order to make sure that they have that level of expertise. So I mean, needing to have their certification was actually one factor, but, you know