Social Engineering Village - Sizing People Up
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Dreeke, Robin
You learned how to build rapport from Robin. Then you learned about the code of trust… but blending all of it together to now master – SIZING PEOPLE UP. Robin is a best-selling author, professional speaker, trainer, facilitator, and retired FBI Special Agent and Chief of the Counterintelligence Behavioral Analysis Program. Robin has taken his life’s work of recruiting spies and broken the art of leadership and relationship building into Five Steps to TRUST. Since 2010, Robin has been working with large corporations as well as small companies in every aspect of their business. Whether it is newly promoted leaders, executives, sales teams, or customer relations, Robin has crafted his Code of Trust for quick results and maximum success.
 Okay, I don't want to make this long and drawn out, but I want to tell you about 11 years ago, I met Robin through a mutual friend of ours, Joe Navarro. And when I met Robin, we kind of hit it off right away. We're amazed at how we were doing the same thing, but for way different reasons. You know, the things that I were doing were never going to result in getting dead, arrested, or being an enemy of another state. That wasn't the case for him. But we were still like pretty surprised at how similar our paths were. And I took one very core lesson away from Robin that I have made the mantra of all of my training for anyone who's been there and all of the SE villages for the last 10 years. And that is leave them feeling better for having met you. And Robin's really personified that mantra throughout the years and all the work that he's done. And the two books that he has out was his third coming out shortly. Well, shortly, is it? It's done. January. So shortly, shortly. And you kind of get that sense that that's his mantra forever. If you don't know Robin, he ran the behavioral analysis program for over 20 years for the FBI. He's recently retired. And I'm really proud of this fact. He's joined us on the Innocent Lives Foundation to become a board member. And really spearhead, yeah, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. And Robin uses his knowledge and his charisma and his name to go out into the news and the media and help bring awareness to our mission and what it is that we're doing and bring awareness to parents that can help protect their kids. So having someone like Robin as a part of that has been just a true honor and a blessing as well as calling him a friend has been really a great part of my life for the last decade. And it all culminates into something which is kind of crazy to me, to have Robin here judging for the SECTF, which is fear a little bit, I think, for him. And then also to have him speaking here, this is something we talked about a decade ago. About a decade, we sat together. We were training together in Bristol, UK. And we talked about actually starting a conference together, doing things like this, like speaking and sharing our knowledge. And not only is he speaking here, but I'm really, really happy to say that if you haven't heard, we're starting our own conference called SE Village Orlando, and it's going to be in February in Orlando, Florida, and it's all social engineering. And there won't be any lines, I promise. There'll be no lines. But Robin is going to be there giving a training out, and I'm really excited about having to be part of all of this. So without any further ado, if you would help me in welcoming my friend, Robin Drieck. You're welcome. Good afternoon, everyone. And wow, yeah, what a crowd. I've done crowds before, but I've never had people picnicking in the front. So I appreciate that much. I know it's not for me because we have an amazing lineup of speakers today, and yeah, everything Chris said is absolutely true. It's, matter of fact, the greatest thing, and he mentioned the Innerson Lies Foundation, it's hands down the coolest thing I've ever been part of. And literally the day I retired is the day he called me and said, board member, right? I said, yeah, of course. So it's a great pleasure to be part of that. And so if you want any more information, we've got our booth over there. So I'm basically going to give you a synopsis of my entire last 50 years of my life in 50 minutes. And those of you all that know me, yes. I'm originally from the Northeast. I'm an extrovert, so standby, it's going to be death by Robin in 50 minutes. And it's fun because this is where it all started. I remember when I first did the podcast with Chris back and we were trying to figure this out. It was actually November of 2008, I think. And he called me on the phone to do the podcast and he goes, Robin, I do social engineering. And I go, I don't know anything about that. It's all that cyber stuff. And he goes, no, no. He said, what do you do? I said, well, primarily my job for my entire time with the FBI was recruiting spies. And if I wasn't recruiting spies, I was recruiting people around spies to tell me about the spies. And he goes, oh, you're a social engineer. And I go, what? And so basically came down to that. And so very briefly, we'll kind of show where, I love framing my background to show where it all came from because basically, and he mentioned I have books out on this and another one coming, these are my manuals on how not to be the moron I was born to be. So with no further ado, my background very simply. I'm an NSW Academy graduate, Marine Corps officer, came in the FBI in 1997, literally had a two week break and got assigned New York field office. In the New York field office, I was assigned to work counterintelligence. Specifically I worked against the Russians. As a matter of fact, specifically Russian military intelligence, the GRU. My job every day of my life and career was to recruit Russian intelligence officers. And I'll tell you about how challenging that is in a second. And so from New York, after I did that, I got on behavioral team in 2001. Then I got transferred to Norfolk, Virginia, continue to work counterintelligence in Norfolk, Virginia. Norfolk, Virginia, FBI headquarters. I went up to headquarters in management, actually in counterintelligence division up there. I ran the entire program on the East Coast. In 2008, I went down to Quantico to teach counterintelligence interviewing and recruiting. That's when Chris and I met and I took over all that. And then I took over our behavioral analysis program in 2010. I ran our team for a number of years until sequestration hit the government. And they eliminated the team and position from counterintelligence division, which is actually personally the best day of my life. Because I then stepped down out of management and literally did all this stuff that I'm going to share with you back on the street again the last five years of my career in Fredericksburg, Virginia, five miles from my house. And I went home for lunch every day. My boss is 65 miles away and I was in heaven until the day I retired. And I got even better. And so does that all not scream at you one hardcore thing? Yes, I am a hardcore type A. No doubt about it. Especially if anyone ever takes the Myers-Briggs type indicator or anything like that. Yeah, head nods. Yes, ENTJ, Exaverted Intuitive Thinking Judger. Yeah, all right. You know what that is when you're 20 years old? You're a big man. And now here's the fun part. If you want to work in the world of counterintelligence and you have that behavior, you're going to fail majestically. Luckily for me and my squad in New York, we had these Jedi masters that had this art form down. And just like in everything in life, these are natural born leaders. They had no idea what they were doing. They're just doing it. Just like we saw some of the conversations going on today in the booth. Some people just have this conversation art form down. This moron did not. But luckily I was surrounded. So let me tell you about the challenge of working counterintelligence. So my job is to recruit Russian spies. Basically I have the hardest sales job and position I think in the entire country, possibly the entire world. Because my job is to sell a concept. My job, my product I'm selling is patriotism in the United States. And I'm trying to sell that product to foreign intelligence officers. Number one challenge. Second challenge, who are foreign intelligence officers? 99% of them are under diplomatic cover at the United Nations, whereas in New York. It is a legal by treaty for me to walk up and have a conversation, initiate a conversation with the person I'm trying to sell my product to. So that's the second challenge. Third challenge in law enforcement. Now granted, here's the funny thing about law enforcement. I was in the bureau for 21 years. Last time I used handcuffs was in Hogan's alley doing the make-believe stuff, going through new age and training. I never made an arrest. I never went to court, never any of that stuff. My entire career was about operations. My job every day was create opportunities to sell my product. And so the third thing that law enforcement generally has is again, pulse in why people have to talk to you because they've done something wrong. And how often do you think foreign intelligence officers actually commit a crime, a lot or a little? A lot. No. Very, very little. What's their job? Their job is to collect intelligence. What's intelligence? Intelligence is something that they have an information gap in their country on. 99% of it can be found open source. And what they do is they research it, they find it open source, and then they create contacts and people of knowledge. Everyone in this room is a person of knowledge with the things you do, the companies you work for, and they bring you out to lunch, nice dinner and say, hey, what do you think about this that I just read in the paper today? I now get a thought and opinion. It's now source and it's now intelligence. Is that illegal? Not much. Nope. If it's proprietary, possibly. Very, very rare. And so if my job is to recruit them, they've done nothing illegal. I can't talk to them and I'm trying to sell a product they don't want to buy. That's a great challenge. And my last rhetorical question I'd love to ask is, so how do you actually recruit a foreign intelligence officer? Money is one thing. But you know the thing about money? What's money do? It's a means to the ends. Money gets you resources. What do you do with the resources? Well, you want to buy a house, you want to take care of your family, provide things. For what purpose? What's the end result in that? You're trying to provide one thing with every single human being. I can predict, I love doing this. I can predict what everyone in this room is going to do. No magic. Everyone in this room is genetically and biologically coded to provide for their own safety and security and prosperity. Everyone in this room will always act in their own best interests. If you're a little more altruistic, your friends and family, little more altruistic, your community, country, all these things. Also, some things that are in people's best interests is philanthropy, taking care of animals, dogs, the environment. That's in their best interests. All you have to do is figure out what they think is their own best interests. You provide resources, they're going to do it. Because that's the bottom line in truth. Every human being is hardwired to want to belong to meaningful groups and organizations and affiliate with them and to be valued by those groups and organizations. There's a few things I'm going to say throughout this entire thing and it's very simple. How do you demonstrate value in affiliation with others? I mean, hey, when I was in the Marine Corps, I sucked at this really bad. I got ranked last out of all second lieutenants. 14, I was ranked dead last. I remember going up to the major and saying, all right, sir, I'm doing something wrong. What? And he goes, you need to be a better leader. Okay. Keep going. How? He goes, you need to make it about everyone else but yourself. I thought I was. Okay. Keep going. How? And he goes, I don't know. Just do it. Welcome to the world of subjective leadership. Some people have the art form down. It became my life's mission to make that art form of pain by number. Because I didn't have it. I wanted it. I had this natural drive to want to be this great leader. But luckily for me, I had these great people around me. And so what I came to learn, long story short, is how do you demonstrate that value in affiliation? How do you make a conversation about everyone else but yourself? It's that elusive, I call these the elusive obvious. It's really simple. If I seek your thoughts and opinions about what you think, I'm demonstrating that value. If I'm talking in terms of your priorities, what's important to you, your needs, wants, dreams and aspirations, personal, professional, long-term, short-term, that's completely about you. If I validate everything you just said and everything you are as a human being and all the choices you made in life are your shields up or shields down. Completely down. So non-judgmental validation is a third thing. And finally, you empower people with choices. Because we do not give people choices unless we value them and want to affiliate with them. Everyone in here has got at least one strong relationship, yes? Tell me this. During the last course of your conversations, interaction with that individual, how often did you seek their thoughts and opinions, talk in terms of their priorities and what's important to them, validate all those things about them without judging them and or give them a choice? I roughly say 5 to 10%. You imagine the power and strength of that relationship and trust. If you brought it up to 100%, that's what I learned. That's what I'm going to share with you all today. So where I came up with this code of trust that I was going to share with you and all sizing people up was this process. And it basically came down to creating labels and meanings behind things. Because as soon as I give labels and meanings to things, I start understanding and start recognizing them. I call it the Toyota Tundra effect. Toyota Tundra? Yes, Toyota Tundra. The day I bought my truck, I swear 300 people in my town bought the same dang truck. You have that? You start seeing that make a model everywhere? Yes, because now it has meaning. So if you can do the same thing with behaviors, you give a label and a meaning to the behavior, you'll start recognizing it and start actually being able to use it for yourself. So breaking this down to what we're going to do? I can't see. Anyway, so introduction, personally, on the assessment. We just did it. Every single thing you saw, whether you're watching people in the booth or whether you're interacting or social engineering or sales or anything that comes down to one simple thing, human beings are hardwired to want to belong to others, groups and affiliations and to be valued by those. People love it when you seek their thoughts and opinions, you talk in terms of their priorities and you validate them without judgment. And you build in a choice in there, you got gold. And I'm listening to all the great conversations going on today. All those elements of those things are going on throughout those entire conversations. So that's it. Understanding human beings, you build that into your conversation, your dialogue, I guarantee you're going to have trust. Next we're going to talk about ourselves. How can we, our behavior ourselves, how can we develop trust with others? Because one thing I found out on my team, when I stepped down from our team, they asked me to do an article for the law enforcement bullet again. And I said, what can I write about? And they said, do it on counterintelligence. I said, okay, what can I write about? And they said, oh, let me write about what my team does. I had no idea what we actually did. I mean, we did it. You know, we'd get a request from a case agent somewhere in the country. We did roughly 80 or 90 assessments a year, some double agent operations, false flags, dead drops, interviews, all the hooky spooky spy stuff, yep, goes on all over the place still all the time. And one thing I realized in all those assessments, when I took that step back, I said, what am I actually doing in all these things? And that's when it hit me like a ton of bricks, more fog clearing. I was strategizing trust. You know, when anyone of you, if you're a social engineer, what are you actually doing? When someone's doing an interaction, you're actually strategizing even for a short period of time, you're strategizing trust because no one will take actions, no one will divulge information, no one will do anything without some semblance of trust. So that's all the citizen. I came up with five steps of trust. So first I'm going to share that with you. And then when I started realizing is that the more I focused on understanding trust and what was doing it and understanding what's trust, well, how to predict people. Because I know you're always going to act in your own best interest and I know that you all want to do things that's in terms of your own priorities and I'll bless you, bless you again. And I'll do things in terms of those priorities, my resources, I know exactly what you're going to do. You're going to do it. And so when it comes to recruiting spies, my main answer is you don't. You find people around them that know them, their sources, and they share with them and I find out what their priorities are. And if some of their priorities is that they're dying wish of their mother and father and grandfather's was their children don't go up in that regime without the freedoms and liberties they want and they want them to live in a better place like this, well, I have resources for that. And so that's how you're all you're trying to do and that's the same thing in sales, the same thing in anything. All you're trying to do is discover the priorities of individuals and see if you have resources you can offer. And that's as simple as it is. There's no complication to this. I don't use any trickery. As a matter of fact, I'm the counterintelligence guy. I don't lie. I don't use subterfuge. You know, elicitation, yeah, piece of cake. But you know what? What got you the elicitation? What got you the information? Assembling to trust. And everything I've ever done had to always be long term. And so I'm always going for the hardcore trust. Oh, and so who can you trust? Basically, I started redefining trust at some point because trust is a lot of times trust is more about morals and ethics that people have. And I'll tell you what, yours could be completely different from yours and yours and it has nothing to do with trust. Trust to me is predictability. If I can reasonably predict what every individual is going to do in a situation, I can now manage my own expectations. Because if I can manage my expectations, I'm going to set them here and you're either going to meet them or you're going to exceed them. That way I'm going to have a healthy relationship because here's another guarantee in life. No one in this room got here by yourself ever. Everything you've achieved in life came from a relationship, a mentor, a guide, and then someone of inspiration. That is exactly what happened. And I, you know, I thought getting in my career, the way to have a successful career was to make myself look good by being successful. I was oblivious to the fact that in order to be successful, you need strong healthy relationships. And that was the bedrock of all what we're going to share with you all today. And finally, the elusive obvious. Given labels and meanings and all of these things, and here's what I guarantee. You're going to walk out here and you're going to see hopefully so much more and understand so much more. And there's not going to be any epiphanies. It's going to have labels and meanings behind what's been successful in your life already. So Chris said, leave him better for having met you. Yes, that is my gold mantra for everything. And how do you do that? Well, you do it by getting their brain to reward them for engaging with you. Back in April of 2012, Harvard did this great study and they found when they wired up people's brains on average, people talk about themselves and share their own thoughts, opinions, and priorities, 40% of every day. And every time they're sharing their thoughts, opinions, and ideas, it was basically testing, hey, do you accept me through where I am? Dopamine starts flowing. Because basically our ancient tribal brain, which is hardwired for survival and survival means I need to belong to a tribe, I need to affiliate and be valued by that tribe, our brain will reward us chemically. Dopamine, serotonin, oxytocin, and bloodstream, our pleasure centers are firing when people are accepting us non-judgmentally for who we are. That's why validation is so key and critical. And validation doesn't mean I necessarily agree with you. Validation is I'm seeking to understand who you are, why you are, without judging it. And I guarantee you that's what's going on in the brain. So sex, drugs, rock and roll, chocolate, and non-judgmental validation. It's all doing the same thing in the brain. So that's how you leave people better for having met you. So how do you build that into a conversation? It's easy. You seek their thoughts and opinions, you talk in terms of their priorities, you validate them without judging and give them choices. If you include at least one of those things in every statement you say live or in every email you write, in every single sentence, that means every single sentence is about them and their brain is rewarding them chemically for engaging with you. And now if you do that without subterfusion or deception or manipulation, it's skyrockets because then you're going to have congruence between what's coming out of your mouth and the emotions that you have in human beings pick up on those non-verbals of incongruence. I'm saying it won't work, I'm saying in my line of work, I can't, I don't have room to fail. So next, this is a big step in my life as well. I realized there is actually a difference between trying to convince someone of something as opposed to how can I inspire them to want to? Because convincing someone of something, that's about me. That's about me trying to get you to do something. Inspiration means I'm actually hopefully inspiring you to want to do something and how do you only inspire someone to want to do something? You got to make it about them. I have to discover your goals and priorities and again, this keeps coming first full circle if you can't see it. If I understand your goals and priorities, now I offer you resources to be successful and move forward on that, it'll work. And this is why social engineering and the booth works so well. What's the goal and priority of 99% of human beings on earth? And assistance, what? Yeah, an assistance theme, absolutely. Because human beings are hardwired to render assistance, commensurate to the level of relationship you have because hey, can I have a kidney? It's not going to work. But hey, can I get a thought and opinion on something because I'm trying to do X? In other words, I'm using an assistance theme, but I'm also seeking your thoughts and opinions. We got the double go. And so every time that was something successful going on the booth, it's because someone is seeking thoughts and opinions and help me, an assistance theme of some sort. And it's built in because that way you're inspiring them to want to do it because an assistance is a priority of most human beings. That's why it works. That's why it's effective. So with that the background, that is literally, that's it for understanding human behavior. When I first took over the team, we roughly had a 20, 25-page questionnaire and the gold standard was that if a case agent couldn't fill out at least 20, I mean 70% of that questionnaire, we didn't have enough behavioral information to strategize good, healthy engagement with another human being. I took over the team and said, nope, I know these principles of life. If I understand exactly what my goal is, now I started thinking of things, how can I inspire you to want to do it? Well, it's easy. I'm going to talk in terms of see what I mean, it keeps coming back. And you can do that with any human. By the way, this is cross gender, cross ethnicity, cross everything. Because why? I'm not taking any of my context and placing it on you. I'm trying to understand yours without judging it. I've got to tell you what, 21 years of muscle memory, do it on the street, you get really good at learning how not to judge. I can give you an argument for every single point of you every human being has because I've listened to them all without judging it. Because when you stop judging and you allow your brain to hear why they think the way they think, because walk a mile in their shoes, now you can understand. It doesn't mean you necessarily agree, but understanding is what people are looking for. So code of trust, moving beyond manipulation basically, demonstrated value and affiliation and making it all about them. So how do you do it? Step one, very simple. What's your goal? Now that's the very directive part that keeps you a leadership and a leader in the position that keeps you understanding what we're trying to do, whether an SE or a mother and a father with your kids. I use the code of trust in every aspect of my life. Now the second part of this, so how can I inspire them to want to? So that's where we flip it. Step one keeps me walking down that thing because this is also a very altruistic, humanistic way to engage people. So people often say, so Robin, aren't you just being a carpet to be walked on? Never. Because I always know the path I'm walking. I know exactly where I want to go. I am strategizing how to inspire you to see if you want to come along with on the ride with me. Now that says, you didn't hear me say, convince you to come with me. It's inspire you if you want to. Empowerment with choice. That's why I always leave someone with them when I ask someone to do something patriotic for their country. I always say, if that's something you're comfortable with, and if it's not, please let me know. You know, I've never been told no. You know why? When was the last time that everything that came out of someone's mouth made them feel awesome about who they were as a human being? That entire conversation. That's me. I will give it everything I can to make that entire conversation about you with no lying. The gold standard I stick to. So step two in the process. By the way, when you start giving labels and meanings to the things you're trying to achieve, what starts happening? Green tundra effect. You start seeing opportunities to facilitate those things because you give the label and meaning. And where do you see them? In people and relationships. Step two, what are the priorities of the individuals you want to interact with? Needs, rom, dreams, or aspirations, short term, long term, personal, professional. What makes this person want to get up and live another day? If they don't, why not? Give it label and meaning. Because what happens when you give it label and meaning? You're going to start recognizing opportunities to be a resource for these people's prosperity and success. Because my three anchors I utilize in every engagement I do is number one, I will leave this relationship and interact so that I will have a healthy professional relationship. I ask myself, what am I about to say, write or do, going to help or hinder a healthy relationship? Because nothing will move forward without it. Number two, open honest communication transparency. If I can't have that, I will not have a healthy relationship. And number three, I make myself an available resource for the success and prosperity of others with no expectation or reciprocity. Because if I put an expectation or reciprocity in there, who's it about now? Me or them? Me. They're going to pick up on it. It's not saying it's going to be a showstopper, but it's not helping you. So I let go of it. And that is my three anchors. So when you understand their priorities, you understand your priorities, your brain naturally starts overlapping resources for each other. And I guarantee you, all these resources come through people and relationships. That's why you want good ones. I mean, look at Chris and I. I would literally do anything for Chris. I mean, just throwing in this relationship thing. So my father-in-law passed away suddenly about five years ago now, four or five years. And I used to tell the story about how I recruited my wife. We grew up together in the same town, same school since fifth grade on. And she thought I was some dumb jock. And I thought she hung out in the library all day and cried or something, you know, so diverse. But I met her, we met her at a mutual friend's party over Christmas of December of 93 and three months later we were married. That's what Marines do, see the hill, take the hill, man. Just go, charge. But I remember one of the first questions I asked her, used to be a fun and rhetorical question, you know, you're trying out first date. And I said, so what's your favorite food? And she gave me an answer that I've never heard any human being ever guess and ever get again. And she said carnival food. Carnival food, like what? And she goes, like, candyed apples, cotton candy. I'm like, I was thinking like burgers or we'll go out to the Italian, Chinese, no, carnival food. And it was a comfort food that her and her dad used to have together when they used to go to the racetrack in Saratoga, New York. And so candyed apples was her thing. And so Chris heard my father-in-law had passed away and all of a sudden before we took off at a funeral in Florida, I get a gourmet gift set that Chris had sent from a place in New York with a condolence card from my wife. That's what you call thoughtfulness. Thoughtfulness goes in a hell of a long way to build a good, healthy, strong relationship. From that point on, my wife says, anything Chris asks you to do, you can do. Hence I'm here and Chris is working for me for free. So next, the answer is taking other individual's priorities. Step three, what do they see? What's their context from their point of view? Need, you know, it's how they see life through their particular optic, their generation, ethnicity, gender, orientation, all these things. Because this is where you're going to start to have possibilities of building an affiliation. But also, what do they see when they see you? Fourth, how do we make it about them? So we take this knowledge and we start building in the four things I said. When we start strategizing this conversation, we're going to seek their thoughts and opinions, talk in terms of their priorities, validate their priorities and context and power them in choice. Because when you start doing this and you offer people those resources to further those things, they're going to take advantage of it. I guarantee it. Now, here's a really cool thing. If they don't, it means you don't know all their priorities and they're hiding things from you. So you might have unhealthy. So now you just reassess. That's what's really great about this. I guarantee what people are going to do. And if they don't, it means there's something that you don't know. So now you have a choice. Find out or don't engage. So that's what I mean. I love human beings because I love interact. It's very cause and effect. And also, with all this I've learned, there is no right or wrong. There just is. I can just guarantee what people's reactions will be in every situation. You judge, shields up. You don't judge, shields down. And if you're going for shields down, that's what will happen. So step five is like, how do you craft that encounter, make it all about them? Easy. You're going to do that with a nonjudgmental validation of strength, attribute or action. Because that's why I'm always seeking people's strengths. Here's another guarantee. Every single person in this room has insecurities and you're all working on something. We are born perfect. The world messes us up for 19 years and we spend the rest of our lives trying to undo that crap. So stop trying to figure out what's wrong with everyone and poking at it because I guarantee you're not building any trusted relationships doing it. Find their greatness. And it might not even be in the professional world. It might not even be work. I've been working with a lot of morons in my last couple of years in the FBI. Horrible case agents. So was I. I'm lazy as hell. I was good. But you know what? These were some of the best fathers, best husbands, best parents, best community leaders I've ever known in my entire life. I found their greatness because everyone's got it. Find it because if you want to start out a conversation with someone and start building trust, start it with that. In most situations, we're trying to inspire people to listen to things we want to tell them anyway. So how do we inspire someone to listen to us? Easy. How do we seek their thoughts and opinions regarding their priorities next? Because again, I'm talking in terms of your priorities and securing your thoughts and opinions. Your dope means flowing. Next, I'm going to validate the things you just said. Now here's where I'm going to inspire you to want to listen to me. I'm going to seek your thoughts and opinions about things I wanted to tell you. Matter of fact, you know, the world is very political these days. But I don't like talking politics. It's much easier talking news stations. So say you watch Fox and I watch CNN. And you have your point of view. What's the natural reaction? Oh, that's not what I think. Here's what I think. Is he going to listen? Nope, shields up. What's the probability of me convincing him of my point of view? Zipponata. As opposed to how can I inspire him to want to listen to me? He shares his thoughts and opinions again. Instead of saying, that's not what I think. Here's what I think. I said, ooh, I never heard of it that way before. Help me understand. How did you come up with that? He shares his thoughts and opinions because I was asking it. And now after he shares his thoughts and opinions, I validated by saying, I got to tell you what, you gave me a lot more to think about. I appreciate that. I'm curious. What do you think about this? And now I ask his thoughts and opinions about what I want to do, tell him before. What's the likelihood he's going to hear it? Guaranteed. You don't plant seeds with people by telling them what you think. You plant seeds with people by asking them what they think. It's a guarantee. That's why I do this. So finally, you know, they're priorities. You know, your priorities, when you people choices, they're going to naturally overlap. And finally, if appropriate, empower people with making choice about maintaining contact or assistance. And then I left with every human being on first contact was, please, first of all, ask me any questions you have because if I leave you feeling I wonder what he really wanted, I have totally failed you. Second, if you don't want to ever have contact with me again, please tell me now, I'll make a note to never bother you again. How many times, the last five years that ever happened to me? Zero. Sometimes I didn't want to do exactly what I was hoping they'd do. They said, I really don't want to go to conferences and talk to Chinese guys overseas. I said, that's okay. No problem. He said, but I'm willing to do this. I said, okay, we'll do that. Because what's my ultimate goal? Healthy relationship, open on communication, be a resource for success and prosperity. Another anchor I had, protect national security. That was it. Because if not you, you, someone else, I mean, it really didn't matter because I know exactly what I'm doing. My goal is always healthy relationships. So that's the code of trust. That's what we do in our behavior if we want to inspire people to want to align with us and want to build relationships with us. And for the new part, which is the book coming out in January, which is friggin' done, sizing people up. Again, it's not about sizing people up and judging. It's sizing people up and really what can I reasonably predict you're going to do? And I came up with these six signs and there's, I don't have time to go on all these sub-signs and the tells I have for these things. But these are six behavior signs that I was basically using throughout my career to understand what, what are you going to do? Can I, can we have a healthy relationship? Because these are signs I'm looking at in other people to see you're going to have a healthy relationship. And number one, vesting. I'm looking for signs in the vest. Now granted, you don't have to have all six signs in an individual. I mean, most people in my life have like one and it's really spiked really high. But that's okay. So I'm looking, one sign is vesting. In other words, they see, do they see themselves helping you to move forward in things that, of your priority is important in you? In other words, are they willing to, to give their resources freely and willingly with no expectation or reciprocity for your success? That's a sign of vesting. That's healthy. So I'm looking for signs of that. My second one, longevity. Do they see this relationship as being long term? Or is it just something they're going to do short time? I think this is a great example, you know, difference between the things I had to do for my career and maybe social engineering kind of get bits of information. That's a not, there's no longevity sign when we're doing social engineering because we're trying to get limited bits of information over a short period of time. Doesn't mean it's unhealthy. Doesn't mean anything else. It's just there's no sign for it. So I'm looking for longevity in someone. In other words, someone that says, hey, I'm happy to be part of your company. My lifelong goals is to, you know, like Chris, Chris, when he started social engineering, his lifelong goal was to build the company and continue to do these things. That someone's got longevity. And the things, you know, him and I talked about back in Bristol, you know, it feels like, feels like 100 years ago, that was science longevity because we're talking about doing things that took 10 years to manifest. And also on this first sign of vesting, anytime I ever needed anything, anytime he ever needed anything, whatever resources you need, Chris, whatever I can take care for you, I'm there for you. I mean, I'm just even talking about getting ILF going. I mean, it was, it's, there's no holds barred except the legals, of course. We don't do anything illegal, nothing like that. But so vesting, longevity. Third sign I'm looking for is reliability. This takes a little time sometimes, but basically can they do what they say they're going to do? Do they have the energy? Do they have the talent? Do they have the skill? Do they have the willingness to commit to these things? So basically I'm looking for reliability. But here's the other thing too. There's certain signs that are more important to me than others to have, reliability, that's good, but there's a lot of things I can teach you to do as well. So it's an important one to have. It is a sign, but if you don't have some of the other signs, that might not work out. Sign for is actions. This is one of my ones, by the way, I suffer proud parent syndrome. I always talk about it, so that's why you see pictures of my kids in here. I went to the Naval Academy, my son's at the Naval Academy right now, that's him right there on the silent drill team, which I formed 30 years ago. So it's like legacy. My daughter's a senior at George Mason University being a nurse. Hey, Mason. So yeah, we cover both ends of the spectrum of my family. So actions, I love actions. Basically past patterns of key behaviors. This is the don't do stupid and what's stupid. If you do the same thing again and again and again, but expect a different result, that's crazy. This is this one. If I can observe you in your activities, your actions, your patterns of behavior, two, three, four, 10, 20 times, I now know exactly what you're going to do next time. And now here's what's really awesome about it. If all of a sudden your patterns of behavior shift, well, something changed in your life. Now I want to figure out what that is, because in other words, a priority change in your life that caused you to have it shift in your behavior pattern. And again, no judging, just trying to figure out because you're just observing what normal is for the human being. So this is the normalizing one. So you can reasonably expect, I mean, this is what people over inflate what they expect people to do all the time. What's one reason why people get so frustrated with people? Because they ask you to do something and I'd like you to do it and I'd like you and you're a good person, but you set that bar up here. I'm a pilot. I do angel flights. I volunteer as an angel flight pilot, you know, out of my own pocket and everything. And it's the same thing with flying. I mean, I don't know if you're a pilot, but you know, I like you. So I trust you to fly my plane. I throw your keys to the plane. That's a dumb thing. Because this is more easy past patterns of behavior. Have you ever flown a plane before? No. I'm not going to do that. I know, but if I've seen you fly a plane, I know that you have a couple hundred hours, thousand hours. Well, I can reasonably say that you haven't crashed in a thousand hours. You're probably not crashing on this flight either. Again, it's looking for those past patterns of key behaviors. Language. This is where we're going to bring some of the elements of the code of trust in the first part into this. So one thing that we're trying to do with human beings to demonstrate value in affiliation is what? Seek their thoughts and opinions, talk in terms of their priorities, validate them with judgment and empower them with choices. Now what I'm looking for is are you doing that with me? People sometimes say to me, Robin, so hey, Robin, if you're ever around, someone has actually done your training or roles like this with you. What's that like? Poetic. So I have a very good friend, my best friend that I've come to know later in life. He's a little bit older than me. We do a lot of things together. He's a chief flight instructor and he's an engineer. So he's like me. He wasn't born doing this, so he loves these manuals we put together. I remember when he was selling the flight school and he had older made me a promise to do a few things together related to aviation. He brought me out to lunch and he was, I mean, in the first three minutes, he's seeking my thoughts and opinions, talking in terms of my priorities, giving me lots of choice and I said, Jim, you got to stop right now. I shook his hand and said, you are rocking this conversation. Keep going, brother. So I'm always looking for are people seeking my thoughts and opinions, talking in terms of my priorities, validating without judgment and empowering with choices. So in other words, this is where we're reversed in it. I'm doing my best to do it to you. Are you going to do your best to do it to me? Again, no expectation, but man, if I see people throwing that in there, absolutely love it. In sign six, this is the other one. So past patterns of key behavior, really key with me. And this is the other one. Emotional stability. I don't do crazy brain. Crazy brain meaning I don't like emotional hijacking on myself because what happens when you get emotionally hijacked? You fixate on a thing. We've all experienced this. So say I'm trying to do a thing. I'm trying to accomplish this. You're not a thing, you're a person, but you're trying to get this thing done and you start beating your head against the wall, beating your head against the wall and getting what happens when it's not working. I just got to, I get a smash in that door harder and you get resentment, frustration, discontentment, anger, emotional hijacking. Are you thinking clearly? And you ever get to that point where you're trying to do it and also you're going to screw it and let go? Oh, the answer was over here. Do you ever have that? And who brought you the answer? Your relationship. So here's what happens. When you get emotional hijacking and crazy brain going, you now become oblivious to every other relationship that could bring you that answer. The second I get my own emotional instability going, I immediately back up and say, I give a little knock on the door that might be closed and say, hello? And it's closed. I immediately step back and I go to every single healthy relationship in my life. So guys, folks, I'm trying to get over there. Any ideas? And all of a sudden I get these brilliant, majestic ideas coming from all these different directions through relationships. So if I see someone that's constantly getting emotionally hijacked, unable to regulate, I kind of take a step back. It's like you're not ready to have a healthy relationship today. And also I get very particular on it. Maybe just in this one lane. You're just really angry about this stuff. But over here, if we talk about this, you're completely happy. Good guy. Okay. Then we'll just deal right here. So I'm very, very, in other words, just because you're one way with this doesn't mean I'm going to ostracize or disconnect on this because every human being is different in different areas. Here's the other thing, too. Is anyone in this room the same person you were five years ago? Ten years ago? How about a month ago? We start getting closer. Life's a journey not a destination. I never held yesterday against you for today. Because again, that's resentment. That's anger. That's just condemnation. That's emotional, just crazy because it just brings no, nothing, nothing of trust, nothing of relationships. So just always ask yourself, as you get one of those emotional hijacking moments, ask yourself is what I'm about to do or say going to help or hinder me moving forward? I can tell you it never worked for me. So I did the impossible. I finished a little early and I wanted to. So I'm going to talk about a few things coming up and also I want to leave time for any questions you might have. So, Chris mentioned sizing people up is one coming out next year. The other two resources, it's not all about me. He pumped the essay. So I'll go look at my, that's my self-published one. That's the one I actually make money off of, even at $2.99 a copy. But that's the first one. That's the one that came out all those years ago. The Code of Trust, that's kind of what I talked about today, half of it, and sizing people up is what's coming out. But more importantly, I've gotten asked a lot of times over these years to, hey, Robin, do you do anything online? Can you come do this? And so I worked literally for over a year to take my content and have this online course. I know if you follow me on Twitter and LinkedIn, I just put it out. August 26 is the next date I have that I'm actually going to put a cohort together. If you want it, you can actually text people to that text code and I'll send you information on it. It's just coming from me. I work with a company on this, but it's purely me and I believe me. I don't have time and or the technology ability to end date people with lots of garbage. Or you can email me at my email website, robinatpeopleformula.com. That's also my website. If you didn't get enough, death by Robin for this. Lots of YouTube videos, lots of resources, follow me on LinkedIn and Twitter. I do not do a lot of that either. Guys that follow me know that. I generally put out sciencey stuff on relationship building. And if you ever ask me to take a side in politics or anything else, I'll laugh at you. Because what happens when you take a side? Here's another guarantee. Half the world will line up against you. And I don't like that. It's not nice. So with that, any questions? Talk to her. You talk about a lot of things about getting to know other people, like what their passion or interest and needs and wants. A lot of this seems very deep stuff that people have this guard and that opens. Especially to people meeting first time. So how do you get past that when you don't have much time? So here's the question. If you don't have much time and you have all these things you're trying to find out about the other individual, what do you do about it? The deeper stuff. Well here's another gold standard. If I'm trying to control time, I'm trying to manipulate you and I won't do it. Some people you just have to have patience. And now if I am on a time constraint or I do need to find things out from you in a short time, I'm going to tell you I need it and I'm going to tell you why. I throw transparency into offset it. Because some people are just more guarded. They're more insecure. They've been burned. And so the way I do it is very simple. I will keep demonstrating all the things I talked about and at some point if you're ready to open up and have a relationship, great. If not, then I just have to assess is the energy here or isn't it? And if it's not, again, that's just today. I need to shift over here. I just don't force it. But here's the guarantee. When you're doing these things, these things are accelerators. It's just a guarantee accelerator. So Jack Schaeffer wrote the like switch. Another guy on my behavioral team with me. He's very big on language. And so relationships accelerators are very simple. Time, in other words, how much time are we spending together? Closeness, in other words, are we doing it via Twitter? We doing it email? We doing texting or we're meeting live? And then intensity. Intensity is the content of the conversation dialogue. If you can start increasing those three elements. They are relationship accelerators if the other person is open to it. And again, you've got to keep building in there, seeking their thoughts and opinions, talking in terms of their priorities and whatnot. Go ahead. NLP. NLP. I asked what I think about NLP. There are beautiful elements of NLP because it's using language. The science on it has been bunked as not solid if you're looking at scientifically. But when it comes to practicality, there's a lot. Here's what I will never say anything is wrong. I will say there's great elements in a lot of things. It's framed for some context. Some of the things I do, granted, people come up to me a lot of times, hey, Robin, this sounds like you're talking about this or it sounds like you're talking about this. I go, okay, yes, I am. And so, yeah, there's elements of NLP that are very strong because what's it doing? It's using words to try to make it about the other person. Yeah. I have a question about your role with CI. In the casual class, we did a lot of the punk folks that received the punk folks didn't know a lot of this. In your role with CI, I'm sure a lot of the people you work with knew about my sport, Robert CLD or some of these influence techniques where maybe the mistakes were some of you were maybe equals. Or, yeah, like I said, trained operative. Can you give me maybe to tell us a little bit about the time where you came against someone that another person had been working with? You interact with another human being that had similar things and similar techniques. So the question is basically, have I ever basically, you know, in my world in counter intelligence, you know, going against someone another operative with these kind of things and skills? Yes? You can say that we're not, very rarely. There's actually in only one instance that I go to a meeting offering my resources because I was told by one of my sources this guy was looking for a better opportunity for him and his family and I was the guy that provided for him, I show up at the meeting and he's trying to offer me an opportunity for me and my family. And I was like, you recognize it right away and I said, Syra Gay, I've got to tell you what, this is a great conversation. But obviously I came here to offer you an opportunity, and you came here to offer me an opportunity. How about we do this. beer, you go home and think about the opportunity I have for you. In three months if you want to get back in touch great, if not, have a great career. Never saw him again. And I'll tell you what though, and I'll get to you. It's actually extremely rare to have, I don't encounter people doing this very often because there's elements of this that require a lot of self-awareness. And having a type A aggressive personality but with a self-awareness to understand I know exactly where I suck. You know, I'm the most transparent human being I try to be. Because I told you at the very beginning, narcissistic mangle manneque ass. He's buried in here, he is still in here. I've cascaded new behaviors on top of that because like emotional intelligence, EQ. It's not about stopping doing something. Here's another guarantee. You can't change. Your genetics, your biology, your experience you have between ages 9 and 19 that forms your generational look, outlook on the world you can't change that. But you can add behaviors to it to soften some things that might be to the extreme. And that's what I've spent my life doing is adding behaviors to soften the other ones. Because all these behavior traits everyone has, there's great strengths to them all when they're used in an appropriate situation. But not 24 or 7 sometimes. And so it's understanding the behavior traits that incorporate into yourself to mitigate those things. So you can, it makes you a lot more, you know what it actually is in life? It's called maturity. Your ability to maneuver around every situation, every human being. Again, not because I'm trying to gain on you, but I'm trying to make it about you so we can have a healthy relationship. Because the whole point always in every interaction is I have resources to make you feel good. You have resources that make me feel good. Can we exchange resources? That's it. Yeah. So I'm really interested in the moment where the sense that things start to go wrong at a conversation. And so are there things you're looking up for or changes that you'll make when you get a sense of that? So the question was there's moments in a conversation that might sense when things are going wrong. Can I rephrase it and see if I'm accurate? Are there times when people have tried to manipulate me? Actually, I have never been attempted to manipulate, it never gets to the point of trying to manipulate me because here's why. So what I pick up on, since I'm always going for transparency and offering transparency, if someone is posing things to me and I'm asking questions for transparency and they're not giving transparency, all I do is I'll be back there. All I do is back up and say, all right, we're not being transparent here so we're not going to have a relationship right here. And what I'm looking for a lot of times is incongruence between the words being said and the emotion. Human beings we pick up on this. Everyone at work knows when someone is having a bad day, do you not? You know, Chris talks about nonverbal. I was trained by Joe Navarro, a good friend of mine on the BAP team. I was a nonverbal guy before I shifted this way. Because basically what we're picking up on, we create baselines on every human being all the time. That's why when cops pull someone off on the side of the road, they immediately know their spider senses start going off before they even get out of the car because something deviates from a baseline what normal looks like. And so what I'm looking for is if all of a sudden I'm getting incongruence and I'm getting that creepy car salesman thing back here, because there's incongruence and I'm going to see what's causing the incongruence because normally what's doing that, you're getting that creepy car salesman from someone because they're saying the right things, but there's not an emotion that's being congruent with saying, hey, I really wanted to just provide a comfortable, safe environment in car and vehicle for you and your family. But in here he's saying, I want your money and I got to get as much of it as I can. That's the incongruence. So I pick up on those and everyone does. I just don't blow by it. I engage it. And if someone doesn't want to have the transparency to help assuade my senior incongruence, I just, okay, not today, not now. It's okay. Without judging either. Because everyone's got the reasons for doing what they do. Yeah. So the question is how do you suspend your judging of others? Do it a lot. So I'll give you a great example. So here's another guarantee. I've worked a lot of espionage investigations and when someone actually, when there's actually espionage being committed, where someone is actually knowingly working on behalf of another foreign government, purposely posing, sharing information with people that shouldn't have it and its classified nature, I guarantee you this. It's not the only thing going sideways in their lives. As a matter of fact, I'd say 80 to 90 percent of the time, that's why I love the ILF. Because I never got to work these cases. But 90 percent of the time, these people are also pedophiles and child abusers in some way. And so here's a story about understanding because you got to understand what the goal is. So I suppose with this one case a number of years ago, this guy was picked up because he had about 64 images of children on his computer. When the images computer, they found out that this guy was, had like all these classified documents from all these three letter agencies he shouldn't have on there. He also had a journal about how he sexually assaulted 64 kids. My office comes to me, my team comes to me, says we need a strategy. How do we, we didn't get no names. How do we inspire this guy to share the names so we can go save kids? Here's a guarantee. If you sit across that table and judge that guy, is he going to share the names? Guaranteed not. What's the goal? So luckily we got, when someone, this is how I don't allow people to bother me. I start to understand why, if someone is off putting to me or off sending to me, I dive deep to understand what made you like you are. And this guy, in this guy's case, he was sexually assaulted by his Cub Scout master when he's nine years old and raped by the Cub Scouts from the age of nine to nineteen. He wrote a poem about this. It was tragic. It doesn't condone it. It makes you understand it. When you understand it, you're able to have a dialogue and validate I understand your steps in your life. And you're not judging it. I know you're not getting it. It's, it, I'll tell you, it's not easy. But you got to keep, so the thing is, keep focus on the ultimate goal. If I'm, and I'm granted, not everyone can do that. And we, and it's okay if you can because we used to tell the case agent, if you can't sit across this table and interview this guy and not judge him, then you can't be the one doing the interview. Because what's the goal? We got to save 64 kids. We'll get someone else. It's not a big deal. So that's how. And again, it's not, it's not like saying, hey, everyone should be able to do this. No, not everyone can. And it's okay. If you're in a situation, find someone you can. Go. I'm sorry for the dark story on that one. I always, I use it because it is an example of the difference between agreeing with someone and validating someone. Big difference. Yeah. Yeah. So I said I recruited my wife. Does these skills make me a manipulative instance here? What is it? But what is one of the anchors in the entire process? I have checks and balances in this thing. Open house communication transparency. No. I have full transparency. There's no fake. There's a guarantee. That's the other thing too. Some people say, so Robin, if people know you do this, you know, aren't they guard just up or just think, you know, you're doing it to them? I said, what, making it about you? I am making about you. Want me to stop? I'll do that too. And so what happens with me, like on a first contact, and if people, because I'm, I'll do all these things on first contacts or last contact. I don't change, you know, engagements. What happens is over a period of time when they see I have no expectation reciprocity, that makes it non-manipulation. I'm not one, I have full transparency and I have no expectation reciprocity. I'm not doing anything. There's nothing I ever do for gain. Now, we all have heard, you know, from Chris's stuff and I have a reciprocal altruism. I mean, that human condition to want to repay a kindness and value someone is huge. But if you start expecting it, now you're doing it for you. I have zero expectations. And people say, well, how do you do that? Muscle memory. You got to do it. Well, you don't have to. I'm just saying if you don't, it's going to be manipulative. Yeah. Oh, I'm sorry. Can you speak some of that de-escalating interpersonal conflict? So if you do ask a question where somebody uses a relationship accelerator too soon and somebody puts up walls or something like that, can you speak a little bit to your experience with what you have to do with it? So how do you de-escalate a conversation or engagement that goes south in any situation? So there's lots of different ways depending on what caused the escalation. In other words, if I pick up on a nonverbal that I induce stress in some way, where I see an eyebrow compression, lip compression, pull back, blading, blocking, any of these things that are coming in, the first thing I'm going to say to them, I'll recognize, all right, I did something to induce a stress and I'll immediately say, ooh, I said something a little off, don't we? Help me understand, please, what did I do off? What did I do wrong? Because again, who did I just make it about? I just made it about them. I validated the emotion and I sought the thoughts and opinions about what I can do and took ownership of my problem. So I always make it my issue, my problem, I caused it on you. And so again, what I just did is I just made the entire conversation about them. De-escalation in other situations where people are maybe emotionally hijacked and reacting to the world around them, kind of bouncing off the walls, you keep cognitive for them, you honor reason, you ask simple questions, say understand, you know, you told me last week that your priorities and goals are this. Help me understand is what you're doing here, here and here is that helping or hindering you trying to get there. Again, people don't like being told what to do, they like to find their own path. So if you understand what path they're trying to walk and you maintain objectivity, this is also incredibly empathetic, if you haven't noticed, lots of empathy here because I understand a human being. But you maintain objectivity so you can start asking what I call discovery questions. How is helping, how is what you're doing helping or hindering going from there to there to there? And they start asking themselves, huh, maybe it's not. I said, well, what other ideas you have to do that? Have you talked to so-and-so? I saw their resume, they did X, Y and Z. You know, talk to them, they might have a good idea for you. I don't know. Again, you're just, and what you start doing is start aligning relationships you know might be a resource for them instead of just reacting negatively to the world around them. Does that help? I have 33 seconds. Why is the Russian so hard to work with? Why is anyone so hard to work with? Everyone's got different thoughts and opinions. Oh, this is a great question. What's the success rate with turning people over? How often do you think we actually recruit foreign intelligence officers? A lot or a little? Little. You're right. It's like hitting mega-millions. That rare, that beneficial. And but, so my job, I got it. My job every day was to buy that Lotto ticket. And the guy that I worked with that had the greatest humility, and if you read my book, Dakota Trust, he's Jesse Thorne in the book, but in real life, his name's John. I never knew the success and awesomeness of John Sapinara until I went to his house and I opened up the shoe box in the corner and I saw three directors awards in there. I was like, I'm going to be a good guy. I'm going to be a good guy. I'm going to be a good guy. I'm going to be a good guy. I'm going to be a good guy. I'm going to be a good guy. I'm going to be a shoe box in the corner and I saw three directors awards in there, one from the C.I. and two from the FBI. He hit Lotto 14 times in 21 years. That's who I learned from and he had no idea what he was doing. He was just doing it. I made a manual on how to beat a guy like John. So success rate depends on who you are and also opportunity. I am done. Guys, thanks a lot! ____
 Okay, I don't want to make this long and drawn out, but I want to tell you about 11 years ago,  I met Robin through a mutual friend of ours, Joe Navarro.  And when I met Robin, we kind of hit it off right away.  We're amazed at how we were doing the same thing, but for way different reasons.  You know, the things that I were doing were never going to result in getting dead,  arrested, or being an enemy of another state.  That wasn't the case for him.  But we were still like pretty surprised at how similar our paths were.  And I took one very core lesson away from Robin that I have made the mantra of all of my training  for anyone who's been there and all of the SE villages for the last 10 years.  And that is leave them feeling better for having met you.  And Robin's really personified that mantra throughout the years and all the work that he's done.  And the two books that he has out was his third coming out shortly.  Well, shortly, is it?  It's done.  January.  So shortly, shortly.  And you kind of get that sense that that's his mantra forever.  If you don't know Robin, he ran the behavioral analysis program for over 20 years for the FBI.  He's recently retired.  And I'm really proud of this fact.  He's joined us on the Innocent Lives Foundation to become a board member.  And really spearhead, yeah, thank you.  Thank you.  Thank you.  And Robin uses his knowledge and his charisma and his name to go out into the news and the media  and help bring awareness to our mission and what it is that we're doing and bring awareness  to parents that can help protect their kids.  So having someone like Robin as a part of that has been just a true honor and a blessing  as well as calling him a friend has been really a great part of my life for the last decade.  And it all culminates into something which is kind of crazy to me, to have Robin here  judging for the SECTF, which is fear a little bit, I think, for him.  And then also to have him speaking here, this is something we talked about a decade ago.  About a decade, we sat together.  We were training together in Bristol, UK.  And we talked about actually starting a conference together, doing things like this, like speaking  and sharing our knowledge.  And not only is he speaking here, but I'm really, really happy to say that if you haven't  heard, we're starting our own conference called SE Village Orlando, and it's going to be in  February in Orlando, Florida, and it's all social engineering.  And there won't be any lines, I promise.  There'll be no lines.  But Robin is going to be there giving a training out, and I'm really excited about having to  be part of all of this.  So without any further ado, if you would help me in welcoming my friend, Robin Drieck.  You're welcome.  Good afternoon, everyone.  And wow, yeah, what a crowd.  I've done crowds before, but I've never had people picnicking in the front.  So I appreciate that much.  I know it's not for me because we have an amazing lineup of speakers today, and yeah,  everything Chris said is absolutely true.  It's, matter of fact, the greatest thing, and he mentioned the Innerson Lies Foundation,  it's hands down the coolest thing I've ever been part of.  And literally the day I retired is the day he called me and said, board member, right?  I said, yeah, of course.  So it's a great pleasure to be part of that.  And so if you want any more information, we've got our booth over there.  So I'm basically going to give you a synopsis of my entire last 50 years of my life in 50  minutes.  And those of you all that know me, yes.  I'm originally from the Northeast.  I'm an extrovert, so standby, it's going to be death by Robin in 50 minutes.  And it's fun because this is where it all started.  I remember when I first did the podcast with Chris back and we were trying to figure this  out.  It was actually November of 2008, I think.  And he called me on the phone to do the podcast and he goes, Robin, I do social engineering.  And I go, I don't know anything about that.  It's all that cyber stuff.  And he goes, no, no.  He said, what do you do?  I said, well, primarily my job for my entire time with the FBI was recruiting spies.  And if I wasn't recruiting spies, I was recruiting people around spies to tell me about the spies.  And he goes, oh, you're a social engineer.  And I go, what?  And so basically came down to that.  And so very briefly, we'll kind of show where, I love framing my background to show where  it all came from because basically, and he mentioned I have books out on this and another  one coming, these are my manuals on how not to be the moron I was born to be.  So with no further ado, my background very simply.  I'm an NSW Academy graduate, Marine Corps officer, came in the FBI in 1997, literally  had a two week break and got assigned New York field office.  In the New York field office, I was assigned to work counterintelligence.  Specifically I worked against the Russians.  As a matter of fact, specifically Russian military intelligence, the GRU.  My job every day of my life and career was to recruit Russian intelligence officers.  And I'll tell you about how challenging that is in a second.  And so from New York, after I did that, I got on behavioral team in 2001.  Then I got transferred to Norfolk, Virginia, continue to work counterintelligence in Norfolk,  Virginia.  Norfolk, Virginia, FBI headquarters.  I went up to headquarters in management, actually in counterintelligence division up there.  I ran the entire program on the East Coast.  In 2008, I went down to Quantico to teach counterintelligence interviewing and recruiting.  That's when Chris and I met and I took over all that.  And then I took over our behavioral analysis program in 2010.  I ran our team for a number of years until sequestration hit the government.  And they eliminated the team and position from counterintelligence division, which is  actually personally the best day of my life.  Because I then stepped down out of management and literally did all this stuff that I'm going  to share with you back on the street again the last five years of my career in Fredericksburg,  Virginia, five miles from my house.  And I went home for lunch every day.  My boss is 65 miles away and I was in heaven until the day I retired.  And I got even better.  And so does that all not scream at you one hardcore thing?  Yes, I am a hardcore type A. No doubt about it.  Especially if anyone ever takes the Myers-Briggs type indicator or anything like that.  Yeah, head nods.  Yes, ENTJ, Exaverted Intuitive Thinking Judger.  Yeah, all right.  You know what that is when you're 20 years old?  You're a big man.  And now here's the fun part.  If you want to work in the world of counterintelligence and you have that behavior, you're going  to fail majestically.  Luckily for me and my squad in New York, we had these Jedi masters that had this art form  down.  And just like in everything in life, these are natural born leaders.  They had no idea what they were doing.  They're just doing it.  Just like we saw some of the conversations going on today in the booth.  Some people just have this conversation art form down.  This moron did not.  But luckily I was surrounded.  So let me tell you about the challenge of working counterintelligence.  So my job is to recruit Russian spies.  Basically I have the hardest sales job and position I think in the entire country, possibly  the entire world.  Because my job is to sell a concept.  My job, my product I'm selling is patriotism in the United States.  And I'm trying to sell that product to foreign intelligence officers.  Number one challenge.  Second challenge, who are foreign intelligence officers?  99% of them are under diplomatic cover at the United Nations, whereas in New York.  It is a legal by treaty for me to walk up and have a conversation, initiate a conversation  with the person I'm trying to sell my product to.  So that's the second challenge.  Third challenge in law enforcement.  Now granted, here's the funny thing about law enforcement.  I was in the bureau for 21 years.  Last time I used handcuffs was in Hogan's alley doing the make-believe stuff, going through  new age and training.  I never made an arrest.  I never went to court, never any of that stuff.  My entire career was about operations.  My job every day was create opportunities to sell my product.  And so the third thing that law enforcement generally has is again, pulse in why people  have to talk to you because they've done something wrong.  And how often do you think foreign intelligence officers actually commit a crime, a lot or  a little?  A lot.  No.  Very, very little.  What's their job?  Their job is to collect intelligence.  What's intelligence?  Intelligence is something that they have an information gap in their country on.  99% of it can be found open source.  And what they do is they research it, they find it open source, and then they create  contacts and people of knowledge.  Everyone in this room is a person of knowledge with the things you do, the companies you  work for, and they bring you out to lunch, nice dinner and say, hey, what do you think  about this that I just read in the paper today?  I now get a thought and opinion.  It's now source and it's now intelligence.  Is that illegal?  Not much.  Nope.  If it's proprietary, possibly.  Very, very rare.  And so if my job is to recruit them, they've done nothing illegal.  I can't talk to them and I'm trying to sell a product they don't want to buy.  That's a great challenge.  And my last rhetorical question I'd love to ask is, so how do you actually recruit a  foreign intelligence officer?  Money is one thing.  But you know the thing about money?  What's money do?  It's a means to the ends.  Money gets you resources.  What do you do with the resources?  Well, you want to buy a house, you want to take care of your family, provide things.  For what purpose?  What's the end result in that?  You're trying to provide one thing with every single human being.  I can predict, I love doing this.  I can predict what everyone in this room is going to do.  No magic.  Everyone in this room is genetically and biologically coded to provide for their own safety and  security and prosperity.  Everyone in this room will always act in their own best interests.  If you're a little more altruistic, your friends and family, little more altruistic, your community,  country, all these things.  Also, some things that are in people's best interests is philanthropy, taking care of  animals, dogs, the environment.  That's in their best interests.  All you have to do is figure out what they think is their own best interests.  You provide resources, they're going to do it.  Because that's the bottom line in truth.  Every human being is hardwired to want to belong to meaningful groups and organizations and  affiliate with them and to be valued by those groups and organizations.  There's a few things I'm going to say throughout this entire thing and it's very simple.  How do you demonstrate value in affiliation with others?  I mean, hey, when I was in the Marine Corps, I sucked at this really bad.  I got ranked last out of all second lieutenants.  14, I was ranked dead last.  I remember going up to the major and saying, all right, sir, I'm doing something wrong.  What?  And he goes, you need to be a better leader.  Okay.  Keep going.  How?  He goes, you need to make it about everyone else but yourself.  I thought I was.  Okay.  Keep going.  How?  And he goes, I don't know.  Just do it.  Welcome to the world of subjective leadership.  Some people have the art form down.  It became my life's mission to make that art form of pain by number.  Because I didn't have it.  I wanted it.  I had this natural drive to want to be this great leader.  But luckily for me, I had these great people around me.  And so what I came to learn, long story short, is how do you demonstrate that value in affiliation?  How do you make a conversation about everyone else but yourself?  It's that elusive, I call these the elusive obvious.  It's really simple.  If I seek your thoughts and opinions about what you think, I'm demonstrating that value.  If I'm talking in terms of your priorities, what's important to you, your needs, wants,  dreams and aspirations, personal, professional, long-term, short-term, that's completely  about you.  If I validate everything you just said and everything you are as a human being and all  the choices you made in life are your shields up or shields down.  Completely down.  So non-judgmental validation is a third thing.  And finally, you empower people with choices.  Because we do not give people choices unless we value them and want to affiliate with them.  Everyone in here has got at least one strong relationship, yes?  Tell me this.  During the last course of your conversations, interaction with that individual, how often  did you seek their thoughts and opinions, talk in terms of their priorities and what's  important to them, validate all those things about them without judging them and or give  them a choice?  I roughly say 5 to 10%.  You imagine the power and strength of that relationship and trust.  If you brought it up to 100%, that's what I learned.  That's what I'm going to share with you all today.  So where I came up with this code of trust that I was going to share with you and all  sizing people up was this process.  And it basically came down to creating labels and meanings behind things.  Because as soon as I give labels and meanings to things, I start understanding and start  recognizing them.  I call it the Toyota Tundra effect.  Toyota Tundra?  Yes, Toyota Tundra.  The day I bought my truck, I swear 300 people in my town bought the same dang truck.  You have that?  You start seeing that make a model everywhere?  Yes, because now it has meaning.  So if you can do the same thing with behaviors, you give a label and a meaning to the behavior,  you'll start recognizing it and start actually being able to use it for yourself.  So breaking this down to what we're going to do?  I can't see.  Anyway, so introduction, personally, on the assessment.  We just did it.  Every single thing you saw, whether you're watching people in the booth or whether you're  interacting or social engineering or sales or anything that comes down to one simple  thing, human beings are hardwired to want to belong to others, groups and affiliations  and to be valued by those.  People love it when you seek their thoughts and opinions, you talk in terms of their priorities  and you validate them without judgment.  And you build in a choice in there, you got gold.  And I'm listening to all the great conversations going on today.  All those elements of those things are going on throughout those entire conversations.  So that's it.  Understanding human beings, you build that into your conversation, your dialogue, I guarantee  you're going to have trust.  Next we're going to talk about ourselves.  How can we, our behavior ourselves, how can we develop trust with others?  Because one thing I found out on my team, when I stepped down from our team, they asked  me to do an article for the law enforcement bullet again.  And I said, what can I write about?  And they said, do it on counterintelligence.  I said, okay, what can I write about?  And they said, oh, let me write about what my team does.  I had no idea what we actually did.  I mean, we did it.  You know, we'd get a request from a case agent somewhere in the country.  We did roughly 80 or 90 assessments a year, some double agent operations, false flags,  dead drops, interviews, all the hooky spooky spy stuff, yep, goes on all over the place  still all the time.  And one thing I realized in all those assessments, when I took that step back, I said, what  am I actually doing in all these things?  And that's when it hit me like a ton of bricks, more fog clearing.  I was strategizing trust.  You know, when anyone of you, if you're a social engineer, what are you actually doing?  When someone's doing an interaction, you're actually strategizing even for a short period  of time, you're strategizing trust because no one will take actions, no one will divulge  information, no one will do anything without some semblance of trust.  So that's all the citizen.  I came up with five steps of trust.  So first I'm going to share that with you.  And then when I started realizing is that the more I focused on understanding trust  and what was doing it and understanding what's trust, well, how to predict people.  Because I know you're always going to act in your own best interest and I know that you  all want to do things that's in terms of your own priorities and I'll bless you, bless  you again.  And I'll do things in terms of those priorities, my resources, I know exactly what you're going  to do.  You're going to do it.  And so when it comes to recruiting spies, my main answer is you don't.  You find people around them that know them, their sources, and they share with them and  I find out what their priorities are.  And if some of their priorities is that they're dying wish of their mother and father and  grandfather's was their children don't go up in that regime without the freedoms and  liberties they want and they want them to live in a better place like this, well, I  have resources for that.  And so that's how you're all you're trying to do and that's the same thing in sales,  the same thing in anything.  All you're trying to do is discover the priorities of individuals and see if you have resources  you can offer.  And that's as simple as it is.  There's no complication to this.  I don't use any trickery.  As a matter of fact, I'm the counterintelligence guy.  I don't lie.  I don't use subterfuge.  You know, elicitation, yeah, piece of cake.  But you know what?  What got you the elicitation?  What got you the information?  Assembling to trust.  And everything I've ever done had to always be long term.  And so I'm always going for the hardcore trust.  Oh, and so who can you trust?  Basically, I started redefining trust at some point because trust is a lot of times trust  is more about morals and ethics that people have.  And I'll tell you what, yours could be completely different from yours and yours and it has  nothing to do with trust.  Trust to me is predictability.  If I can reasonably predict what every individual is going to do in a situation, I can now  manage my own expectations.  Because if I can manage my expectations, I'm going to set them here and you're either  going to meet them or you're going to exceed them.  That way I'm going to have a healthy relationship because here's another guarantee in life.  No one in this room got here by yourself ever.  Everything you've achieved in life came from a relationship, a mentor, a guide, and then  someone of inspiration.  That is exactly what happened.  And I, you know, I thought getting in my career, the way to have a successful career was to  make myself look good by being successful.  I was oblivious to the fact that in order to be successful, you need strong healthy relationships.  And that was the bedrock of all what we're going to share with you all today.  And finally, the elusive obvious.  Given labels and meanings and all of these things, and here's what I guarantee.  You're going to walk out here and you're going to see hopefully so much more and understand  so much more.  And there's not going to be any epiphanies.  It's going to have labels and meanings behind what's been successful in your life already.  So Chris said, leave him better for having met you.  Yes, that is my gold mantra for everything.  And how do you do that?  Well, you do it by getting their brain to reward them for engaging with you.  Back in April of 2012, Harvard did this great study and they found when they wired up people's  brains on average, people talk about themselves and share their own thoughts, opinions, and  priorities, 40% of every day.  And every time they're sharing their thoughts, opinions, and ideas, it was basically testing,  hey, do you accept me through where I am?  Dopamine starts flowing.  Because basically our ancient tribal brain, which is hardwired for survival and survival  means I need to belong to a tribe, I need to affiliate and be valued by that tribe,  our brain will reward us chemically.  Dopamine, serotonin, oxytocin, and bloodstream, our pleasure centers are firing when people  are accepting us non-judgmentally for who we are.  That's why validation is so key and critical.  And validation doesn't mean I necessarily agree with you.  Validation is I'm seeking to understand who you are, why you are, without judging it.  And I guarantee you that's what's going on in the brain.  So sex, drugs, rock and roll, chocolate, and non-judgmental validation.  It's all doing the same thing in the brain.  So that's how you leave people better for having met you.  So how do you build that into a conversation?  It's easy.  You seek their thoughts and opinions, you talk in terms of their priorities, you validate  them without judging and give them choices.  If you include at least one of those things in every statement you say live or in every  email you write, in every single sentence, that means every single sentence is about  them and their brain is rewarding them chemically for engaging with you.  And now if you do that without subterfusion or deception or manipulation, it's skyrockets  because then you're going to have congruence between what's coming out of your mouth and  the emotions that you have in human beings pick up on those non-verbals of incongruence.  I'm saying it won't work, I'm saying in my line of work, I can't, I don't have room to  fail.  So next, this is a big step in my life as well.  I realized there is actually a difference between trying to convince someone of something  as opposed to how can I inspire them to want to?  Because convincing someone of something, that's about me.  That's about me trying to get you to do something.  Inspiration means I'm actually hopefully inspiring you to want to do something and how do you  only inspire someone to want to do something?  You got to make it about them.  I have to discover your goals and priorities and again, this keeps coming first full circle  if you can't see it.  If I understand your goals and priorities, now I offer you resources to be successful  and move forward on that, it'll work.  And this is why social engineering and the booth works so well.  What's the goal and priority of 99% of human beings on earth?  And assistance, what?  Yeah, an assistance theme, absolutely.  Because human beings are hardwired to render assistance, commensurate to the level of relationship  you have because hey, can I have a kidney?  It's not going to work.  But hey, can I get a thought and opinion on something because I'm trying to do X?  In other words, I'm using an assistance theme, but I'm also seeking your thoughts and opinions.  We got the double go.  And so every time that was something successful going on the booth, it's because someone is  seeking thoughts and opinions and help me, an assistance theme of some sort.  And it's built in because that way you're inspiring them to want to do it because an  assistance is a priority of most human beings.  That's why it works.  That's why it's effective.  So with that the background, that is literally, that's it for understanding human behavior.  When I first took over the team, we roughly had a 20, 25-page questionnaire and the gold  standard was that if a case agent couldn't fill out at least 20, I mean 70% of that questionnaire,  we didn't have enough behavioral information to strategize good, healthy engagement with  another human being.  I took over the team and said, nope, I know these principles of life.  If I understand exactly what my goal is, now I started thinking of things, how can I inspire  you to want to do it?  Well, it's easy.  I'm going to talk in terms of see what I mean, it keeps coming back.  And you can do that with any human.  By the way, this is cross gender, cross ethnicity, cross everything.  Because why?  I'm not taking any of my context and placing it on you.  I'm trying to understand yours without judging it.  I've got to tell you what, 21 years of muscle memory, do it on the street, you get really  good at learning how not to judge.  I can give you an argument for every single point of you every human being has because  I've listened to them all without judging it.  Because when you stop judging and you allow your brain to hear why they think the way  they think, because walk a mile in their shoes, now you can understand.  It doesn't mean you necessarily agree, but understanding is what people are looking for.  So code of trust, moving beyond manipulation basically, demonstrated value and affiliation  and making it all about them.  So how do you do it?  Step one, very simple.  What's your goal?  Now that's the very directive part that keeps you a leadership and a leader in the position  that keeps you understanding what we're trying to do, whether an SE or a mother and a father  with your kids.  I use the code of trust in every aspect of my life.  Now the second part of this, so how can I inspire them to want to?  So that's where we flip it.  Step one keeps me walking down that thing because this is also a very altruistic, humanistic  way to engage people.  So people often say, so Robin, aren't you just being a carpet to be walked on?  Never.  Because I always know the path I'm walking.  I know exactly where I want to go.  I am strategizing how to inspire you to see if you want to come along with on the ride  with me.  Now that says, you didn't hear me say, convince you to come with me.  It's inspire you if you want to.  Empowerment with choice.  That's why I always leave someone with them when I ask someone to do something patriotic  for their country.  I always say, if that's something you're comfortable with, and if it's not, please let me know.  You know, I've never been told no.  You know why?  When was the last time that everything that came out of someone's mouth made them feel  awesome about who they were as a human being?  That entire conversation.  That's me.  I will give it everything I can to make that entire conversation about you with no lying.  The gold standard I stick to.  So step two in the process.  By the way, when you start giving labels and meanings to the things you're trying to achieve,  what starts happening?  Green tundra effect.  You start seeing opportunities to facilitate those things because you give the label and  meaning.  And where do you see them?  In people and relationships.  Step two, what are the priorities of the individuals you want to interact with?  Needs, rom, dreams, or aspirations, short term, long term, personal, professional.  What makes this person want to get up and live another day?  If they don't, why not?  Give it label and meaning.  Because what happens when you give it label and meaning?  You're going to start recognizing opportunities to be a resource for these people's prosperity  and success.  Because my three anchors I utilize in every engagement I do is number one, I will leave  this relationship and interact so that I will have a healthy professional relationship.  I ask myself, what am I about to say, write or do, going to help or hinder a healthy relationship?  Because nothing will move forward without it.  Number two, open honest communication transparency.  If I can't have that, I will not have a healthy relationship.  And number three, I make myself an available resource for the success and prosperity of  others with no expectation or reciprocity.  Because if I put an expectation or reciprocity in there, who's it about now?  Me or them?  Me.  They're going to pick up on it.  It's not saying it's going to be a showstopper, but it's not helping you.  So I let go of it.  And that is my three anchors.  So when you understand their priorities, you understand your priorities, your brain naturally  starts overlapping resources for each other.  And I guarantee you, all these resources come through people and relationships.  That's why you want good ones.  I mean, look at Chris and I.  I would literally do anything for Chris.  I mean, just throwing in this relationship thing.  So my father-in-law passed away suddenly about five years ago now, four or five years.  And I used to tell the story about how I recruited my wife.  We grew up together in the same town, same school since fifth grade on.  And she thought I was some dumb jock.  And I thought she hung out in the library all day and cried or something, you know, so  diverse.  But I met her, we met her at a mutual friend's party over Christmas of December of 93 and  three months later we were married.  That's what Marines do, see the hill, take the hill, man.  Just go, charge.  But I remember one of the first questions I asked her, used to be a fun and rhetorical  question, you know, you're trying out first date.  And I said, so what's your favorite food?  And she gave me an answer that I've never heard any human being ever guess and ever get again.  And she said carnival food.  Carnival food, like what?  And she goes, like, candyed apples, cotton candy.  I'm like, I was thinking like burgers or we'll go out to the Italian, Chinese, no, carnival  food.  And it was a comfort food that her and her dad used to have together when they used to  go to the racetrack in Saratoga, New York.  And so candyed apples was her thing.  And so Chris heard my father-in-law had passed away and all of a sudden before we took off  at a funeral in Florida, I get a gourmet gift set that Chris had sent from a place in New  York with a condolence card from my wife.  That's what you call thoughtfulness.  Thoughtfulness goes in a hell of a long way to build a good, healthy, strong relationship.  From that point on, my wife says, anything Chris asks you to do, you can do.  Hence I'm here and Chris is working for me for free.  So next, the answer is taking other individual's priorities.  Step three, what do they see?  What's their context from their point of view?  Need, you know, it's how they see life through their particular optic, their generation,  ethnicity, gender, orientation, all these things.  Because this is where you're going to start to have possibilities of building an affiliation.  But also, what do they see when they see you?  Fourth, how do we make it about them?  So we take this knowledge and we start building in the four things I said.  When we start strategizing this conversation, we're going to seek their thoughts and opinions,  talk in terms of their priorities, validate their priorities and context and power them  in choice.  Because when you start doing this and you offer people those resources to further those things,  they're going to take advantage of it.  I guarantee it.  Now, here's a really cool thing.  If they don't, it means you don't know all their priorities and they're hiding things  from you.  So you might have unhealthy.  So now you just reassess.  That's what's really great about this.  I guarantee what people are going to do.  And if they don't, it means there's something that you don't know.  So now you have a choice.  Find out or don't engage.  So that's what I mean.  I love human beings because I love interact.  It's very cause and effect.  And also, with all this I've learned, there is no right or wrong.  There just is.  I can just guarantee what people's reactions will be in every situation.  You judge, shields up.  You don't judge, shields down.  And if you're going for shields down, that's what will happen.  So step five is like, how do you craft that encounter, make it all about them?  Easy.  You're going to do that with a nonjudgmental validation of strength, attribute or action.  Because that's why I'm always seeking people's strengths.  Here's another guarantee.  Every single person in this room has insecurities and you're all working on something.  We are born perfect.  The world messes us up for 19 years and we spend the rest of our lives trying to undo  that crap.  So stop trying to figure out what's wrong with everyone and poking at it because I guarantee  you're not building any trusted relationships doing it.  Find their greatness.  And it might not even be in the professional world.  It might not even be work.  I've been working with a lot of morons in my last couple of years in the FBI.  Horrible case agents.  So was I.  I'm lazy as hell.  I was good.  But you know what?  These were some of the best fathers, best husbands, best parents, best community leaders  I've ever known in my entire life.  I found their greatness because everyone's got it.  Find it because if you want to start out a conversation with someone and start building  trust, start it with that.  In most situations, we're trying to inspire people to listen to things we want to tell  them anyway.  So how do we inspire someone to listen to us?  Easy.  How do we seek their thoughts and opinions regarding their priorities next?  Because again, I'm talking in terms of your priorities and securing your thoughts and  opinions.  Your dope means flowing.  Next, I'm going to validate the things you just said.  Now here's where I'm going to inspire you to want to listen to me.  I'm going to seek your thoughts and opinions about things I wanted to tell you.  Matter of fact, you know, the world is very political these days.  But I don't like talking politics.  It's much easier talking news stations.  So say you watch Fox and I watch CNN.  And you have your point of view.  What's the natural reaction?  Oh, that's not what I think.  Here's what I think.  Is he going to listen?  Nope, shields up.  What's the probability of me convincing him of my point of view?  Zipponata.  As opposed to how can I inspire him to want to listen to me?  He shares his thoughts and opinions again.  Instead of saying, that's not what I think.  Here's what I think.  I said, ooh, I never heard of it that way before.  Help me understand.  How did you come up with that?  He shares his thoughts and opinions because I was asking it.  And now after he shares his thoughts and opinions, I validated by saying, I got to tell you what,  you gave me a lot more to think about.  I appreciate that.  I'm curious.  What do you think about this?  And now I ask his thoughts and opinions about what I want to do, tell him before.  What's the likelihood he's going to hear it?  Guaranteed.  You don't plant seeds with people by telling them what you think.  You plant seeds with people by asking them what they think.  It's a guarantee.  That's why I do this.  So finally, you know, they're priorities.  You know, your priorities, when you people choices, they're going to naturally overlap.  And finally, if appropriate, empower people with making choice about maintaining contact  or assistance.  And then I left with every human being on first contact was, please, first of all, ask me  any questions you have because if I leave you feeling I wonder what he really wanted,  I have totally failed you.  Second, if you don't want to ever have contact with me again, please tell me now, I'll make  a note to never bother you again.  How many times, the last five years that ever happened to me?  Zero.  Sometimes I didn't want to do exactly what I was hoping they'd do.  They said, I really don't want to go to conferences and talk to Chinese guys overseas.  I said, that's okay.  No problem.  He said, but I'm willing to do this.  I said, okay, we'll do that.  Because what's my ultimate goal?  Healthy relationship, open on communication, be a resource for success and prosperity.  Another anchor I had, protect national security.  That was it.  Because if not you, you, someone else, I mean, it really didn't matter because I know  exactly what I'm doing.  My goal is always healthy relationships.  So that's the code of trust.  That's what we do in our behavior if we want to inspire people to want to align with us  and want to build relationships with us.  And for the new part, which is the book coming out in January, which is friggin' done, sizing  people up.  Again, it's not about sizing people up and judging.  It's sizing people up and really what can I reasonably predict you're going to do?  And I came up with these six signs and there's, I don't have time to go on all these sub-signs  and the tells I have for these things.  But these are six behavior signs that I was basically using throughout my career to understand  what, what are you going to do?  Can I, can we have a healthy relationship?  Because these are signs I'm looking at in other people to see you're going to have a  healthy relationship.  And number one, vesting.  I'm looking for signs in the vest.  Now granted, you don't have to have all six signs in an individual.  I mean, most people in my life have like one and it's really spiked really high.  But that's okay.  So I'm looking, one sign is vesting.  In other words, they see, do they see themselves helping you to move forward in things that,  of your priority is important in you?  In other words, are they willing to, to give their resources freely and willingly with  no expectation or reciprocity for your success?  That's a sign of vesting.  That's healthy.  So I'm looking for signs of that.  My second one, longevity.  Do they see this relationship as being long term?  Or is it just something they're going to do short time?  I think this is a great example, you know, difference between the things I had to do for  my career and maybe social engineering kind of get bits of information.  That's a not, there's no longevity sign when we're doing social engineering because we're  trying to get limited bits of information over a short period of time.  Doesn't mean it's unhealthy.  Doesn't mean anything else.  It's just there's no sign for it.  So I'm looking for longevity in someone.  In other words, someone that says, hey, I'm happy to be part of your company.  My lifelong goals is to, you know, like Chris, Chris, when he started social engineering,  his lifelong goal was to build the company and continue to do these things.  That someone's got longevity.  And the things, you know, him and I talked about back in Bristol, you know, it feels  like, feels like 100 years ago, that was science longevity because we're talking about doing  things that took 10 years to manifest.  And also on this first sign of vesting, anytime I ever needed anything, anytime he ever needed  anything, whatever resources you need, Chris, whatever I can take care for you, I'm there  for you.  I mean, I'm just even talking about getting ILF going.  I mean, it was, it's, there's no holds barred except the legals, of course.  We don't do anything illegal, nothing like that.  But so vesting, longevity.  Third sign I'm looking for is reliability.  This takes a little time sometimes, but basically can they do what they say they're going to  do?  Do they have the energy?  Do they have the talent?  Do they have the skill?  Do they have the willingness to commit to these things?  So basically I'm looking for reliability.  But here's the other thing too.  There's certain signs that are more important to me than others to have, reliability, that's  good, but there's a lot of things I can teach you to do as well.  So it's an important one to have.  It is a sign, but if you don't have some of the other signs, that might not work out.  Sign for is actions.  This is one of my ones, by the way, I suffer proud parent syndrome.  I always talk about it, so that's why you see pictures of my kids in here.  I went to the Naval Academy, my son's at the Naval Academy right now, that's him right  there on the silent drill team, which I formed 30 years ago.  So it's like legacy.  My daughter's a senior at George Mason University being a nurse.  Hey, Mason.  So yeah, we cover both ends of the spectrum of my family.  So actions, I love actions.  Basically past patterns of key behaviors.  This is the don't do stupid and what's stupid.  If you do the same thing again and again and again, but expect a different result, that's  crazy.  This is this one.  If I can observe you in your activities, your actions, your patterns of behavior, two,  three, four, 10, 20 times, I now know exactly what you're going to do next time.  And now here's what's really awesome about it.  If all of a sudden your patterns of behavior shift, well, something changed in your life.  Now I want to figure out what that is, because in other words, a priority change in your  life that caused you to have it shift in your behavior pattern.  And again, no judging, just trying to figure out because you're just observing what normal  is for the human being.  So this is the normalizing one.  So you can reasonably expect, I mean, this is what people over inflate what they expect  people to do all the time.  What's one reason why people get so frustrated with people?  Because they ask you to do something and I'd like you to do it and I'd like you and you're  a good person, but you set that bar up here.  I'm a pilot.  I do angel flights.  I volunteer as an angel flight pilot, you know, out of my own pocket and everything.  And it's the same thing with flying.  I mean, I don't know if you're a pilot, but you know, I like you.  So I trust you to fly my plane.  I throw your keys to the plane.  That's a dumb thing.  Because this is more easy past patterns of behavior.  Have you ever flown a plane before?  No.  I'm not going to do that.  I know, but if I've seen you fly a plane, I know that you have a couple hundred hours,  thousand hours.  Well, I can reasonably say that you haven't crashed in a thousand hours.  You're probably not crashing on this flight either.  Again, it's looking for those past patterns of key behaviors.  Language.  This is where we're going to bring some of the elements of the code of trust in the first  part into this.  So one thing that we're trying to do with human beings to demonstrate value in affiliation  is what?  Seek their thoughts and opinions, talk in terms of their priorities, validate them with judgment  and empower them with choices.  Now what I'm looking for is are you doing that with me?  People sometimes say to me, Robin, so hey, Robin, if you're ever around, someone has actually  done your training or roles like this with you.  What's that like?  Poetic.  So I have a very good friend, my best friend that I've come to know later in life.  He's a little bit older than me.  We do a lot of things together.  He's a chief flight instructor and he's an engineer.  So he's like me.  He wasn't born doing this, so he loves these manuals we put together.  I remember when he was selling the flight school and he had older made me a promise to do a  few things together related to aviation.  He brought me out to lunch and he was, I mean, in the first three minutes, he's seeking my  thoughts and opinions, talking in terms of my priorities, giving me lots of choice and  I said, Jim, you got to stop right now.  I shook his hand and said, you are rocking this conversation.  Keep going, brother.  So I'm always looking for are people seeking my thoughts and opinions, talking in terms  of my priorities, validating without judgment and empowering with choices.  So in other words, this is where we're reversed in it.  I'm doing my best to do it to you.  Are you going to do your best to do it to me?  Again, no expectation, but man, if I see people throwing that in there, absolutely love it.  In sign six, this is the other one.  So past patterns of key behavior, really key with me.  And this is the other one.  Emotional stability.  I don't do crazy brain.  Crazy brain meaning I don't like emotional hijacking on myself because what happens when you get  emotionally hijacked?  You fixate on a thing.  We've all experienced this.  So say I'm trying to do a thing.  I'm trying to accomplish this.  You're not a thing, you're a person, but you're trying to get this thing done and you start  beating your head against the wall, beating your head against the wall and getting what  happens when it's not working.  I just got to, I get a smash in that door harder and you get resentment, frustration,  discontentment, anger, emotional hijacking.  Are you thinking clearly?  And you ever get to that point where you're trying to do it and also you're going to screw  it and let go?  Oh, the answer was over here.  Do you ever have that?  And who brought you the answer?  Your relationship.  So here's what happens.  When you get emotional hijacking and crazy brain going, you now become oblivious to every  other relationship that could bring you that answer.  The second I get my own emotional instability going, I immediately back up and say, I give  a little knock on the door that might be closed and say, hello?  And it's closed.  I immediately step back and I go to every single healthy relationship in my life.  So guys, folks, I'm trying to get over there.  Any ideas?  And all of a sudden I get these brilliant, majestic ideas coming from all these different  directions through relationships.  So if I see someone that's constantly getting emotionally hijacked, unable to regulate,  I kind of take a step back.  It's like you're not ready to have a healthy relationship today.  And also I get very particular on it.  Maybe just in this one lane.  You're just really angry about this stuff.  But over here, if we talk about this, you're completely happy.  Good guy.  Okay.  Then we'll just deal right here.  So I'm very, very, in other words, just because you're one way with this doesn't mean I'm going  to ostracize or disconnect on this because every human being is different in different  areas.  Here's the other thing, too.  Is anyone in this room the same person you were five years ago?  Ten years ago?  How about a month ago?  We start getting closer.  Life's a journey not a destination.  I never held yesterday against you for today.  Because again, that's resentment.  That's anger.  That's just condemnation.  That's emotional, just crazy because it just brings no, nothing, nothing of trust, nothing  of relationships.  So just always ask yourself, as you get one of those emotional hijacking moments, ask  yourself is what I'm about to do or say going to help or hinder me moving forward?  I can tell you it never worked for me.  So I did the impossible.  I finished a little early and I wanted to.  So I'm going to talk about a few things coming up and also I want to leave time for any questions  you might have.  So, Chris mentioned sizing people up is one coming out next year.  The other two resources, it's not all about me.  He pumped the essay.  So I'll go look at my, that's my self-published one.  That's the one I actually make money off of, even at $2.99 a copy.  But that's the first one.  That's the one that came out all those years ago.  The Code of Trust, that's kind of what I talked about today, half of it, and sizing people  up is what's coming out.  But more importantly, I've gotten asked a lot of times over these years to, hey, Robin,  do you do anything online?  Can you come do this?  And so I worked literally for over a year to take my content and have this online course.  I know if you follow me on Twitter and LinkedIn, I just put it out.  August 26 is the next date I have that I'm actually going to put a cohort together.  If you want it, you can actually text people to that text code and I'll send you information  on it.  It's just coming from me.  I work with a company on this, but it's purely me and I believe me.  I don't have time and or the technology ability to end date people with lots of garbage.  Or you can email me at my email website, robinatpeopleformula.com.  That's also my website.  If you didn't get enough, death by Robin for this.  Lots of YouTube videos, lots of resources, follow me on LinkedIn and Twitter.  I do not do a lot of that either.  Guys that follow me know that.  I generally put out sciencey stuff on relationship building.  And if you ever ask me to take a side in politics or anything else, I'll laugh at you.  Because what happens when you take a side?  Here's another guarantee.  Half the world will line up against you.  And I don't like that.  It's not nice.  So with that, any questions?  Talk to her.  You talk about a lot of things about getting to know other people, like what their passion  or interest and needs and wants.  A lot of this seems very deep stuff that people have this guard and that opens.  Especially to people meeting first time.  So how do you get past that when you don't have much time?  So here's the question.  If you don't have much time and you have all these things you're trying to find out about  the other individual, what do you do about it?  The deeper stuff.  Well here's another gold standard.  If I'm trying to control time, I'm trying to manipulate you and I won't do it.  Some people you just have to have patience.  And now if I am on a time constraint or I do need to find things out from you in a short  time, I'm going to tell you I need it and I'm going to tell you why.  I throw transparency into offset it.  Because some people are just more guarded.  They're more insecure.  They've been burned.  And so the way I do it is very simple.  I will keep demonstrating all the things I talked about and at some point if you're  ready to open up and have a relationship, great.  If not, then I just have to assess is the energy here or isn't it?  And if it's not, again, that's just today.  I need to shift over here.  I just don't force it.  But here's the guarantee.  When you're doing these things, these things are accelerators.  It's just a guarantee accelerator.  So Jack Schaeffer wrote the like switch.  Another guy on my behavioral team with me.  He's very big on language.  And so relationships accelerators are very simple.  Time, in other words, how much time are we spending together?  Closeness, in other words, are we doing it via Twitter?  We doing it email?  We doing texting or we're meeting live?  And then intensity.  Intensity is the content of the conversation dialogue.  If you can start increasing those three elements.  They are relationship accelerators if the other person is open to it.  And again, you've got to keep building in there, seeking their thoughts and opinions,  talking in terms of their priorities and whatnot.  Go ahead.  NLP.  NLP.  I asked what I think about NLP.  There are beautiful elements of NLP because it's using language.  The science on it has been bunked as not solid if you're looking at scientifically.  But when it comes to practicality, there's a lot.  Here's what I will never say anything is wrong.  I will say there's great elements in a lot of things.  It's framed for some context.  Some of the things I do, granted, people come up to me a lot of times, hey, Robin, this  sounds like you're talking about this or it sounds like you're talking about this.  I go, okay, yes, I am.  And so, yeah, there's elements of NLP that are very strong because what's it doing?  It's using words to try to make it about the other person.  Yeah.  I have a question about your role with CI.  In the casual class, we did a lot of the punk folks that received the punk folks didn't  know a lot of this.  In your role with CI, I'm sure a lot of the people you work with knew about my sport,  Robert CLD or some of these influence techniques where maybe the mistakes were some of you  were maybe equals.  Or, yeah, like I said, trained operative.  Can you give me maybe to tell us a little bit about the time where you came against  someone that another person had been working with?  You interact with another human being that had similar things and similar techniques.  So the question is basically, have I ever basically, you know, in my world in counter  intelligence, you know, going against someone another operative with these kind of things  and skills?  Yes?  You can say that we're not, very rarely.  There's actually in only one instance that I go to a meeting offering my resources because  I was told by one of my sources this guy was looking for a better opportunity for him and  his family and I was the guy that provided for him, I show up at the meeting and he's  trying to offer me an opportunity for me and my family.  And I was like, you recognize it right away and I said, Syra Gay, I've got to tell you  what, this is a great conversation.  But obviously I came here to offer you an opportunity, and you came here to offer me  an opportunity.  How about we do this.  beer, you go home and think about the opportunity I have for you. In three months if you want to get  back in touch great, if not, have a great career. Never saw him again. And I'll tell you what  though, and I'll get to you. It's actually extremely rare to have, I don't encounter people  doing this very often because there's elements of this that require a lot of self-awareness. And  having a type A aggressive personality but with a self-awareness to understand I know exactly  where I suck. You know, I'm the most transparent human being I try to be. Because I told you at  the very beginning, narcissistic mangle manneque ass. He's buried in here, he is still in here.  I've cascaded new behaviors on top of that because like emotional intelligence, EQ. It's not  about stopping doing something. Here's another guarantee. You can't change. Your genetics,  your biology, your experience you have between ages 9 and 19 that forms your generational look,  outlook on the world you can't change that. But you can add behaviors to it to soften some  things that might be to the extreme. And that's what I've spent my life doing is adding behaviors  to soften the other ones. Because all these behavior traits everyone has, there's great  strengths to them all when they're used in an appropriate situation. But not 24 or 7 sometimes.  And so it's understanding the behavior traits that incorporate into yourself to mitigate those  things. So you can, it makes you a lot more, you know what it actually is in life? It's called  maturity. Your ability to maneuver around every situation, every human being. Again, not because  I'm trying to gain on you, but I'm trying to make it about you so we can have a healthy  relationship. Because the whole point always in every interaction is I have resources to make  you feel good. You have resources that make me feel good. Can we exchange resources? That's it.  Yeah.  So I'm really interested in the moment where the sense that things start to go wrong at a  conversation. And so are there things you're looking up for or changes that you'll make when  you get a sense of that? So the question was there's moments in a conversation that might sense  when things are going wrong. Can I rephrase it and see if I'm accurate? Are there times when  people have tried to manipulate me? Actually, I have never been attempted to manipulate, it never  gets to the point of trying to manipulate me because here's why. So what I pick up on, since  I'm always going for transparency and offering transparency, if someone is posing things to  me and I'm asking questions for transparency and they're not giving transparency, all I do is I'll  be back there. All I do is back up and say, all right, we're not being transparent here so we're  not going to have a relationship right here. And what I'm looking for a lot of times is  incongruence between the words being said and the emotion. Human beings we pick up on this.  Everyone at work knows when someone is having a bad day, do you not? You know, Chris talks about  nonverbal. I was trained by Joe Navarro, a good friend of mine on the BAP team. I was a nonverbal  guy before I shifted this way. Because basically what we're picking up on, we create baselines on  every human being all the time. That's why when cops pull someone off on the side of the road,  they immediately know their spider senses start going off before they even get out of the car  because something deviates from a baseline what normal looks like. And so what I'm looking for is  if all of a sudden I'm getting incongruence and I'm getting that creepy car salesman thing back  here, because there's incongruence and I'm going to see what's causing the incongruence because  normally what's doing that, you're getting that creepy car salesman from someone because they're  saying the right things, but there's not an emotion that's being congruent with saying, hey, I  really wanted to just provide a comfortable, safe environment in car and vehicle for you and your  family. But in here he's saying, I want your money and I got to get as much of it as I can. That's  the incongruence. So I pick up on those and everyone does. I just don't blow by it. I engage it.  And if someone doesn't want to have the transparency to help assuade my senior incongruence, I just,  okay, not today, not now. It's okay. Without judging either. Because everyone's got the reasons for  doing what they do. Yeah.  So the question is how do you suspend your judging of others? Do it a lot. So I'll give you a great  example. So here's another guarantee. I've worked a lot of espionage investigations and when  someone actually, when there's actually espionage being committed, where someone is actually  knowingly working on behalf of another foreign government, purposely posing, sharing information  with people that shouldn't have it and its classified nature, I guarantee you this. It's not  the only thing going sideways in their lives. As a matter of fact, I'd say 80 to 90 percent of  the time, that's why I love the ILF. Because I never got to work these cases. But 90 percent of  the time, these people are also pedophiles and child abusers in some way. And so here's a story  about understanding because you got to understand what the goal is. So I suppose with this one  case a number of years ago, this guy was picked up because he had about 64 images of children on  his computer. When the images computer, they found out that this guy was, had like all these  classified documents from all these three letter agencies he shouldn't have on there. He also  had a journal about how he sexually assaulted 64 kids. My office comes to me, my team comes to  me, says we need a strategy. How do we, we didn't get no names. How do we inspire this guy to  share the names so we can go save kids? Here's a guarantee. If you sit across that table and  judge that guy, is he going to share the names? Guaranteed not. What's the goal? So luckily we  got, when someone, this is how I don't allow people to bother me. I start to understand why, if  someone is off putting to me or off sending to me, I dive deep to understand what made you like  you are. And this guy, in this guy's case, he was sexually assaulted by his Cub Scout master  when he's nine years old and raped by the Cub Scouts from the age of nine to nineteen. He wrote  a poem about this. It was tragic. It doesn't condone it. It makes you understand it. When you  understand it, you're able to have a dialogue and validate I understand your steps in your life.  And you're not judging it. I know you're not getting it. It's, it, I'll tell you, it's not  easy. But you got to keep, so the thing is, keep focus on the ultimate goal. If I'm, and I'm  granted, not everyone can do that. And we, and it's okay if you can because we used to tell the  case agent, if you can't sit across this table and interview this guy and not judge him, then  you can't be the one doing the interview. Because what's the goal? We got to save 64 kids. We'll  get someone else. It's not a big deal. So that's how. And again, it's not, it's not like saying,  hey, everyone should be able to do this. No, not everyone can. And it's okay. If you're in a  situation, find someone you can. Go. I'm sorry for the dark story on that one. I always, I use it  because it is an example of the difference between agreeing with someone and validating someone.  Big difference. Yeah. Yeah. So I said I recruited my wife. Does these skills make me a manipulative  instance here? What is it? But what is one of the anchors in the entire process? I have checks and  balances in this thing. Open house communication transparency. No. I have full transparency.  There's no fake. There's a guarantee. That's the other thing too. Some people say, so Robin, if  people know you do this, you know, aren't they guard just up or just think, you know, you're doing  it to them? I said, what, making it about you? I am making about you. Want me to stop? I'll do  that too. And so what happens with me, like on a first contact, and if people, because I'm, I'll  do all these things on first contacts or last contact. I don't change, you know, engagements.  What happens is over a period of time when they see I have no expectation reciprocity, that makes it  non-manipulation. I'm not one, I have full transparency and I have no expectation reciprocity.  I'm not doing anything. There's nothing I ever do for gain. Now, we all have heard, you know, from  Chris's stuff and I have a reciprocal altruism. I mean, that human condition to want to repay a  kindness and value someone is huge. But if you start expecting it, now you're doing it for you. I  have zero expectations. And people say, well, how do you do that? Muscle memory. You got to do it.  Well, you don't have to. I'm just saying if you don't, it's going to be manipulative. Yeah. Oh, I'm  sorry. Can you speak some of that de-escalating interpersonal conflict? So if you do ask a question  where somebody uses a relationship accelerator too soon and somebody puts up walls or something like  that, can you speak a little bit to your experience with what you have to do with it? So how do you  de-escalate a conversation or engagement that goes south in any situation? So there's lots of  different ways depending on what caused the escalation. In other words, if I pick up on a  nonverbal that I induce stress in some way, where I see an eyebrow compression, lip compression,  pull back, blading, blocking, any of these things that are coming in, the first thing I'm going to  say to them, I'll recognize, all right, I did something to induce a stress and I'll immediately  say, ooh, I said something a little off, don't we? Help me understand, please, what did I do off?  What did I do wrong? Because again, who did I just make it about? I just made it about them. I  validated the emotion and I sought the thoughts and opinions about what I can do and took ownership  of my problem. So I always make it my issue, my problem, I caused it on you. And so again, what  I just did is I just made the entire conversation about them. De-escalation in other situations  where people are maybe emotionally hijacked and reacting to the world around them, kind of bouncing  off the walls, you keep cognitive for them, you honor reason, you ask simple questions, say  understand, you know, you told me last week that your priorities and goals are this. Help me  understand is what you're doing here, here and here is that helping or hindering you trying to  get there. Again, people don't like being told what to do, they like to find their own path. So if  you understand what path they're trying to walk and you maintain objectivity, this is also incredibly  empathetic, if you haven't noticed, lots of empathy here because I understand a human being. But you  maintain objectivity so you can start asking what I call discovery questions. How is helping, how  is what you're doing helping or hindering going from there to there to there? And they start  asking themselves, huh, maybe it's not. I said, well, what other ideas you have to do that? Have  you talked to so-and-so? I saw their resume, they did X, Y and Z. You know, talk to them, they  might have a good idea for you. I don't know. Again, you're just, and what you start doing is  start aligning relationships you know might be a resource for them instead of just reacting  negatively to the world around them. Does that help? I have 33 seconds. Why is the Russian so  hard to work with? Why is anyone so hard to work with? Everyone's got different thoughts and  opinions. Oh, this is a great question. What's the success rate with turning people over? How often  do you think we actually recruit foreign intelligence officers? A lot or a little? Little. You're  right. It's like hitting mega-millions. That rare, that beneficial. And but, so my job, I got it. My  job every day was to buy that Lotto ticket. And the guy that I worked with that had the greatest  humility, and if you read my book, Dakota Trust, he's Jesse Thorne in the book, but in real life,  his name's John. I never knew the success and awesomeness of John Sapinara until I went to his  house and I opened up the shoe box in the corner and I saw three directors awards in there. I  was like, I'm going to be a good guy. I'm going to be a good guy. I'm going to be a good guy. I'm  going to be a good guy. I'm going to be a good guy. I'm going to be a good guy. I'm going to be a  shoe box in the corner and I saw three directors awards in there, one from the C.I. and two from  the FBI. He hit Lotto 14 times in 21 years. That's who I learned from and he had no idea what he  was doing. He was just doing it. I made a manual on how to beat a guy like John. So success rate  depends on who you are and also opportunity. I am done. Guys, thanks a lot!  ____
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