Power-to-X
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Geisler, Jonas
This talk will give an introduction into the general concepts of power-to-x and then go more into detail on carbon capture and utilization (CCU). CCU is the idea of building up a closed carbon cycle, where CO2 is recycled, towards fuels and base chemicals, under the use of renewable energy. The talk will give insight in the technology, chemistry, possibilities and challenges. While redesigning our electric supply network towards renewable energies, we face the problem of the fluctuating behavior of the renewables. To solve this, higher nameplate capacities need to be installed, as compared to traditional power plants. This frequently leads to high overcapacities, which we should use, as they would be wasted otherwise. Some of this energy needs to be stored for periods where the energy generation is lower than our consumption. The rest can be used to produce all kinds of things that we need. This would allow a sector coupling of electricity with other fields like transport, heat or chemical industry and lead to more sustainable processes in all those fields. If we see this on a global scale, we can also think of a redistribution of energy not only in time and sector of application, but as well in space. This can be realized, by producing fuels and other energy intensive products in areas of the world with a high potential in the generation of renewable electricity, and transport them to places where they are needed. The technologies that would make this possible are often subsumed as power-to-x technologies. The Wikipedia names twelve different x’s: power-to-ammonia, power-to-chemicals, power-to-fuel, power-to-gas, power-to-heat, power-to-hydrogen, power-to-liquid, power-to-methane, power-to-mobility, power-to-food, power-to-power, and power-to-syngas. In addition, one could still think of many more. I want to give a brief introductive overview on these different approaches and then focus on the technologies, which are using carbon dioxide as a feedstock. Here the idea of power-to-x is combined with the aim of a closed carbon cycle. Emitted CO2 would be recycled to products, like fuels, plastics or fine chemicals. While today these are mainly produced form crude oil, in future they could be implemented in a sustainable process cycle. For these carbon capture and utilization (CCU) concepts, like for example electrolysis of water coupled with a second catalytic CO2 reduction step or direct electrocatalytic CO2-reduction, I will present the technical working principles, the chemistry behind it and discuss possibilities and challenges.
 It's my great pleasure to introduce you to the next talk. It's going to be by Jonas Geisler. He's going to talk about Power to X and dive a little bit into carbon capturing and utilization. So I'm especially interested in this since our planet is burning and we're trying really hard to save it. So I hope Jonas can give us some hints about how that might be possible. So please give a warm welcome to Jonas. Thank you. Yeah, hi. A warm welcome from my side as well to my talk. And as already announced, I will talk about how to make things from electricity or Power to X. And the outline of my talk is first, what is the idea behind Power to X and what does this mysterious X might stand for? Then I want to talk about carbon capture and utilization like a group of techniques which fall under this large word of Power to X. Then I want to talk about the energy sector a little and the chemistry sector, so where this could be applied and why this might make sense to do this in the hopefully very near future. So yeah, the phrase Power to X, basically the idea is when we're generating renewable energy, we produce at certain times sufficient electricity, at certain times not sufficient electricity and at other times surplus electricity. And this surplus electricity, the idea was what to do with it. Like we have it as a resource, do something with it. And there is where the first word you will find when you're searching for Power to X terms comes into the game which is the trivial solution which is Power to Value. So make something valuable. And we'll see later on that the idea of using surplus energy won't be enough but that's basically the idea. By the way, Power in that case usually is electricity. So not that you're confused, Power refers always to electricity. Then when we got this idea like Power to Value, we can ask us the question like what do we need and there comes the next group of terms we can use into play and the first one I want to present you is Power to Power. So now you might think that's stupid. We have Power. Why should we do something to make Power? But that's basically referring to all the energy storage things like storing to make the grid stable for times where we don't have sufficient electricity supply and use it then. The next is Heat. Heat is one of the main fields besides electricity where we put energy in. So why not make Heat with that Power? Third one, Mobility. Same thing, we have a certain field where we need a lot of energy. Let's bring electricity to that field. The next thing, Chemicals. That will be something I will talk a lot about because carbon capture and utilization is mainly about chemicals. Yeah, can we use that electricity to produce chemicals in an efficient way and in a renewable way? And the last term one might find is Food in that field. One might find more terms but this is basically what is the most common. So maybe we can also use it to produce some food. Yeah, now we have our needs in a basic. The question is now what products can we actually make? And there we come to a very often heard term, Power to Gas. This mainly refers to Methane and Hydrogen where we have another terms Power to Methane, Power to Hydrogen. So let's produce gases which are storing energy for us and we can apply them for certain things. Very similar, Power to Fuel or Power to Liquid which is essentially the same. Like when referring to fuels, by that term we very often think of liquid fuels and when we're referring to liquids we very often think of fuel applications. So that's rather similar. And the next one would be Sun Gas. Sun Gas is the mixture of carbon monoxide and hydrogen which is very often used in chemical industry so I will talk about that later. Power to Sun Gas is what's meant with that. You can find Power to Ammonia. Ammonia is one of the chemicals we are producing in a very large scale which is very energy demanding, we're burning a lot of fossil fuels to make ammonia. And the last one I want to show you is Protein which is a rather interesting idea as well to make proteins directly using that energy by some chemistry. Now how they are interconnected, so all these three energy applications refer mainly to gas and fuel, a little to Sun Gas. The chemicals of course, like when we're speaking of chemical products, that's all chemistry and food as many ammonia due to virtualizer production and protein. But I won't talk too much about food, ammonia and proteins, I will mention ammonia at a certain point but that's not the focus of the talk. Now is that new and I would say no, that's just like modern bus wording. Power to Power, we have since a long time, this is a hydro pump station from the 30s, Power to Heat, you might know such devices from your grandparents, Power to Mobility, this is a bus from the 40s and Power to Chemicals, this is a chloral-cali electrolyzer so producing chlorine gas and sodium hydroxide solution from the 1920s. So we have Power to whatever already, the thing is just in times of climate change and an increasing amount of renewable energy, it becomes more interesting and new technologies could be implemented but the general Power to something terms are nothing really new. Now coming more to carbon capture and utilization, what we are doing in our energy sector usually is we take fossil carbon, then we make some fuels out of it, we make one of those fields of energy we are using and then we end up with CO2 and water. If we think of the chemical sector, we are doing the same, we are making commodity chemicals so like the large scale chemicals produced in really megaton scale worldwide and from those we are producing all the fancy products we have around us and at the end of the life hopefully we burn them or we degrade them to CO2 and water because if we don't do that we end up with waste which is even more problematic usually. So this is very linear, we are coming from fossil fuels and we are going to CO2 and water and I guess that's not very new to you but carbon capture and utilization now means that I capture this CO2 and water again and I utilize it and make exactly that fuels and commodity chemicals to have a circle like no more CO2 should be produced but we are just driving it in a circle. Very important from the beginning we are not reducing CO2 as long as we are not producing way more products as the products are already there and we are just bringing new products, we are just lowering the amount of new CO2 emitted to make that clear, a lot of startups say something like negative CO2 emissions by carbon capture and utilization, you need to really look into the detail if they store somewhere the carbon or if they really do carbon capture and utilization and then they usually have no negative emissions but I come to that later again as well. Now this looks nice but till now it's a perpetual mobile so of course we need to put in the renewable energy and we could either do that directly by putting it into the energy sectors and using this energy there or we could just drive that cycle around by putting it into capturing CO2 from point sources we can't avoid or from the air around us which is a little more complicated because the concentration is very low but still possible and also possible on a large scale and in the end hopefully we get rid of this fossil carbon but just having this cycle ongoing. When we look at exactly the same thing from another point of view we come to for example this energy scale and we see different carbon products and oxygen combined have a certain energy level stored within the chemical bonds and what we usually do when we burn them which happens at a certain point as I said we kick them over the activation barrier and then we throw them all the way down the hill till we end up with CO2 and water which is really what for chemists CO2 and water is quite stable so we're really down at the bottom of the energy somehow which is good because we wanted to get this energy out of the reaction but which also is a problem because now we need to bring that back up again and the question is how could we do that how does that work can we just heat up CO2 and water and all our nice products fall out again that's sadly not that easy and at first I want to talk about techniques which are already like have a technology readiness level very high so which could be implemented in large scale reactions kind of already like minor optimizations still needed but we could do that today and therefore we take apart the water and the CO2 part and the first step we make water electrolysis just to remind you like water electrolysis you put two electrodes into a salt solution you apply electricity and from the anode you will have oxygen evolving and from the cathode you will have hydrogen evolving so far so easy like for chemists we know that optimizing that is not that easy but it's known technology we can still make it better but it's out there so now we have hydrogen and oxygen like we already produced the oxygen we put in in the beginning now we want to have our product and therefore we combine this hydrogen and CO2 and then we go over certain reactions which are downhill in energy so we are getting energy out of that again but why because the products are uphill that is because we put in more hydrogen from the beginning to produce again water so we're splitting water and using that water to reduce the CO2 to our products and we form water at the same time now you might have seen such pictures in school at a certain time when people were talking about catalysts and a catalyst from what I hear from people who tell me what they heard in school is this strange things which makes erection fast or some people still remember the thing that lowers the activation barrier but what does actually happen there and I want to make the experiment to get you a better glimpse of what a catalyzed reaction looks like by visualizing it and therefore we take this picture we have that very nice catalyst surface which is very ordered which is not the reality for the experts this is also not the outcome of some simulation or whatever it's just a visualization how such a reaction could look like in the micro scale on the surface for single molecules and atoms and now this CO2 is a linear molecule somewhere in the gas phase or in a liquid phase which makes it more complex but we're just looking at the CO2 here above this catalyst surface and if we have the right material what could happen is that the CO2 absorbs to the one surface atom or to a group of surface atoms and you already see that I drawn the CO2 molecule bent so it's not linear anymore and that might be already one step where the activation barrier is reduced because it's now accessible for reactions from some angles which were not there before and the electron density is different and all that so that might be more reactive than before just by absorbing it to that surface now we want to react it this with hydrogen now we so we put in a hydrogen molecule and some catalysts for example are capable of splitting that hydrogen molecule where it would never happen in normal cases and this might look like this so we form something we call surface hydride so we have single hydrogen atom sitting on the surface and they are split up at a rather low temperatures and now we have that in very close proximity on the surface and what could happen is that one of the hydrogen atoms just jumps to one of the oxygen atoms and we form the surface carbonyl group this carbonyl group already is our first reaction we have reduced carbon dioxide to something not really useful yet but we already did it next step the other hydrogen could jump to the very same oxygen so this is not stable this oxygen has three bonds in that case this should in most of the cases break apart and this is exactly what happens and we form water which is in the gas phase and we have carbon monoxide still bound to the surface and now we could do all kinds of things so if the surface keeps that CO out-sorbed we can react it further and make one carbon containing small molecules like methane, methanol, all that stuff or we can have another carbon monoxide at the same surface very close and then something similar could happen like where the hydrogen atom reacted with the oxygen but the two carbon atoms in a close proximity now react and that's where we form longer carbon chains and there we make more complex molecules so not really complex still like two carbon atoms three carbon atoms ten carbon atoms in the chain or something but yeah we form a product and the last thing which could happen this catalyst is just not capable to keep that carbon monoxide on the surface and it desorbs and we produce carbon monoxide which could also be fine so I hopefully I could explain you now a little more how this catalyst thing might work and now the question is what are their reactions which we can use and the first thing you already seen water electrolysis is in that case the first step you've also already seen the so-called reverse water gas shift reaction where we produce carbon monoxide from CO2 and hydrogen even if in reality on the real catalyst this might look a little different but similar to what I've shown you this could happen now I said carbon monoxide can be a useful product and I come back to the synthesis gas or syngas I already mentioned and with this in different mixtures we can do a lot of things like mixture one or two to one produces LPG so liquid petroleum gas this is what you have in your camping cooker bottles NAFTA is a certain fraction you usually get when you distill crude oil which is very useful in chemical industry diesel which is also something like that if you put in like two to one you get for example methanol ethanol demythyl ether or gasoline and with a mixture of three to one you end up with methane or so-called SNG which is synthetic natural gas so which means exactly the same basically because natural gas contains mainly methane synthetic natural gas usually is methane so here we are already very happy we have a three step process and we produce all kinds of things we can use the problem is by having a lot of steps in a reaction we multiply the efficiency and there by the efficiency goes down so we are always very happy if we can produce things in few steps so there's for example the reaction of CO2 and hydrogen to methanol directly on one catalyst in one step so we only have the efficiency loss of one step instead of two steps the reverse water gas shift and the corresponding syngas reaction so we might have an increase in efficiency by doing that if that reaction is more efficient than the two steps combined same principle with the subatee reaction that would take CO2 and hydrogen and make directly methane without going two steps one reaction I want to mention here even if it's not carbon capture and utilization it's the harbour Bosch reaction because in principle it works the same we could make the hydrogen from water electrolysis and react that with nitrogen and there's exactly where the reduction in producing ammonia in a way that is more sustainable comes in because usually the hydrogen and chemical industry today is produced by a lot of fossil fuels so you burn fossil fuels with too little oxygen to fully burn it and you get a lot of hydrogen out of there so if we would just use hydrogen from water electrolysis which is more expensive today but would be way more sustainable just to give you one further example is I want to point out on this direct methanol synthesis for a second and we form methanol and the picture you see is the George Ola plant in Iceland and it's named after a very interesting person who made the concept of a methanol economy so like basically like our today's economy is a oil economy where we produce nearly everything we have around us from oil he proposes an economy that uses methanol as the central resource and that's why they called this plant after him because they are producing four kilotons a year of methanol or at least they have the capacity to do so this might seem not too much when looking at a hundred megaton a year worldwide methanol consumption but keep in mind that's just one plant and we also don't have just one plant producing methanol today and it's one of the first plants who does exactly that producing seed from CO2 and water by the use of quasi renewable energy in form of geothermal energy producing methanol for the people who are interested typical catalyst which you could use for this process would be a combination of copper and zinc oxide I'm not sure if they are using it because they for sure don't tell which catalyst they are using but this would be would be something typical one could use let's go back to this picture where you said away I showed you all these steps we are going through in the processes I've shown you till now these are the processes like I said which are on a technology readiness level that we could do that today basically but you've seen it's a lot of steps and I told you that a lot of steps sometimes is not good so let's look a little more into the future and could we go like one step and there's something promising and this is actually the field where I'm working in in a more detailed way in my PhD and this is electro catalytic CO2 reduction so you've seen the same picture as in the slide before where I explained water electrolysis so what do we change we put in CO2 and then for sure we need to change the catalyst material I don't know if you really seen that but the color of the one electrode changed and what will happen then when we have the right catalyst we get directly our renewable carbon product or like yeah hydro carbon product and what could be those products the first one formic acid formic acid is a chemical which has a certain role in chemical industry several kilotons a year it's not too large but we can produce it that way and already kind of efficient it is not like industrial level yet but but that that works and we can do the carbon monoxide which I also said before that is useful and there I know that some German companies are right now bill trying to build a commercial plan to do exactly that in that step I won't mention companies because I don't want to make stupid advertisements but there is something going on other products we could do could make is methane and ethylene methane again synthetic natural gas and ethylene it would be the real thing because ethylene is I think the chemical made from from oil like the largest chemical made from oil cause we're producing a lot of polyethylene as plastics and we can use it also for all the other kinds of things we as well we has a very large variety to make things out of ethylene but methane and ethylene to be honest are more on a scale where it works in the lab and it's still not really sure if we can bring that to industrial scale but it might work and yeah like I said that's what I'm trying to work on or being part of large community working on that so now I've talked a lot about the processes and the chemistry behind it let's see can we use that and like I said to you I want to talk about the energy sector and just to give you an estimation the primary energy consumption of the world is something like 600 exajoules a year which equals something like 167 petawatt hours that's what we are using in form of gas and oil and coal and renewables like all the things we put into the energy sector in the beginning and the three different things I told you before electricity transport of mobility and heat are roughly a third of each like in Germany we need a little more heat because of cold winters and in other parts of the world we have a little more electricity so rough estimation one third each so now the question is if we can mainly produce renewable energies in the form of electricity how do we bring that into that field and we can start with something which is very well known mechanical storage and pumping up water or hill and we can calculate roughly one kilogram of water we're pumping uphill for a hundred meters and we roughly come out at something like 0.3 watt hours which are contained within the water yeah more uphill that's something and that's useful we've seen that people are doing that with hydro pump storage but we might put in more energy and then we can go to terminal energy storage and now we take the same kilogram of water and heat it up from 25 degrees roughly room temperature to boiling and we see we come to something like 87 kilowatt hours in the same exact same kilogram of water this is rough a factor of two orders of magnitude so now we can go to chemical storage which is the thing I'm talking to you since roughly half an hour and there we can put in 3.7 kilowatt hours by splitting the water into hydrogen and oxygen this is again something like two orders of magnitude higher that's the reason basically why you don't see cars driving around with hydro pump storage because we couldn't just bring in enough water and height into the into the into the car to make that but we you only have chemicals or electrochemicals driving a car now when we go to electrochemical storage I want to show you this so-called ragoni plot which draws the energy density by weight so how much energy in one kilogram over the energy density by volume how much energy in one liter and if you are not too familiar with the jewels up there there is one mega joule is something like a quarter kilowatt hour now let's take the absolute standard which is lead acid like car batteries which is down there it's also has its applications and weight wise it's still the largest energy market just cause lead is heavy but we are still producing mainly lead acid concerning weight some of you might remember nickel cut mium which is prohibited due to the toxic catmium the better thing is a nickel metal hydride that's what you know from like normal the cylindrical battery shaped rechargeable batteries that's nickel metal hydride and then of course lithium ion technology we can bring in a lot of energy into these batteries and you all have that in a whole lot of devices but if that's still not enough we need to go to a different scale and we put all the batteries down there and now we come to hydrogen hydrogen is somewhere in that region and why is it in such a broad region it's cause we have hydrogen storage in materials which is essentially a sponge suck in up hydrogen but we have that additional material in the storage so it becomes heavier and is low in the energy density by weight we have the gaseous and the at 700 bar compressed and the liquefied so that's what makes up this square but we see now we are very good in energy density by weight hydrogen is very light but by density we there's still place above there and there is where the sea based materials come in and for to give you some examples there we have methanol down there we have gasoline up there and that's also why electric vehicle doesn't drive that far but is like three times as heavy as a normal car that's exactly the thing why gasoline is so good and from my personal perspective I can't imagine a jet flying with batteries cause they would be too heavy we need some fuel that drives them which is lighter and denser so yeah that's why the carbon products are very interesting and another thing why carbon products are very interesting is cause we know how to handle them we have a large infrastructure all around the globe to transport them to store them to supply them to the applications we know what to do we just need to install capacities to produce them from a renewable way but where are the downsides if we're looking at the downsides we come to that graph and I really want to emphasize the work of the group of Andre Bardot which do a really great work in making this life cycle assessments of these technologies and what we see is the global warming impact measured in kilogram CO2 equivalents so like greenhouse gases in general coming from certain products we are producing via carbon capture and utilization techniques so we have this orange dotted lines and methane we have this violet line is jet fuel and different kinds of things and it's drawn over the global warming impact of the electricity we use to drive that process and the vertical line is fossil diesel so if we are above that line by driving that carbon capture and utilization cycle we are producing more greenhouse gases than just using fossil diesel and then we have this horizontal line I think I said vertical line the horizontal line is the fossil diesel the vertical lines are the grid mixes of certain countries the intermediate grid mixes for example the one right out there at something like 370 grams you the two equivalent per kilowatt hour is the U grid mix proposed for 2020 then we have the U grid mix for 2050 which is still not sufficient to produce anything we have Switzerland with this which is on the border of there could be something useful we have France which are very low in global warming impact of their electricity because they are using a lot of nuclear power which is a total different discussion if that is by any means helpful but they could do something on that field and at the best we have Iceland which has really high amount of green electricity in their grid and we have the wind benchmark which is the technology which is also not zero because we are producing for example a lot of concrete to build the windmill and that produces a lot of CO2 but it is still the best technology we have global warming impact wise so yeah it makes only sense if we have a lot of very green electricity going to the chemical sector we have a graph that is slightly more complicated but it essentially says it shows the mass flows from fossil fuels to the 20 largest chemicals produced from fossil fuels usually which have 75% of the greenhouse gas emissions of the chemical industry so that is like a model which can refer to basically the whole chemical industry and they modeled it for these 20 chemicals and we see this fossil fuels are over different processes split up in what I said before ethyl methanol polyolefin so plastics aromatics I didn't speak a lot about them but or essentially not anammonium which is not a carbon base but as I said we put in a lot of fossil fuels to produce it. Now what is the alternative of this thing which is the proposed mass flows so like the size of the line refers to a mass flow to this mass flows which are proposed for 2030 by just using fossil fuels on. I said when I showed you methanol it said something like methanol economy and they made a model it's again worked from the group of Andri Bardo where they basically use methanol as the central chemistry because they say this is high in technology readiness level so we could do that right away but if you see that right the outcome should be the same like we're producing a certain amount of chemicals in 2030 maybe and not should not depend on the way we produce it how much we need of it so actually we can scale that down here so if we make that and capture the carbon dioxide and use hydrogen by the way here the hydrogen you see the hydrogen mass flow going in this comes from water this is why a lot of water comes out of this reaction which is the grey part on the top right part of the this methanol pathway and we would need to put in even more water and split it at the beginning cause some of the water for sure ends up in our products that's why we are doing that so we would need to put in a whole lot of water to make that and we would have massive mass flow so we would have by many factors or by a huge factor larger chemical industry if we would do that cause we would also need plants to capture the carbon dioxide and so on and so on and now the exact same question does that make sense and here is two models so I showed you the high TRL model which is again technology readiness level so can we do it today or is it something we could do maybe in future and the orange area is the we can maybe do that today area and it's the same graph as I shown you in the electricity part or in the sorry in the energy part just the other way around like zero that time is on the right side and we see like again we would need to have a whole lot of renewable electricity which is really clean not a grid mix from today. Now we can come to another graphic like how much electricity would we need to do that and this graph shows like the different lines the colored lines are different global warming impacts of the electricity I put in so zero would be the best thinkable so I have zero emission electricity I put in so I go down that line and it's drawn over the additional electricity we need so how much do we need to install extra to what we have today and on the sides the scales is cradled to grave greenhouse emissions which is from my side the meaningful thing cause that says like how much greenhouse gases do I emit from producing the chemical till degrading or burning it at the end of their life so how much extra CO2 comes out and the other side is Cradle to Gate which is more interesting for a company like I take CO2 and make something with it how much do I produce from starting to my factory gate where I ship the product and that's also why Cradle to Gate emissions can be negative so we can store CO2 there and they cannot be negative when we're looking at Cradle to Grave at least not if we're burning the product in the end of the lifetime and we see we need a lot of electricity the scale down there is in pet award hours and just to give you a number the today's generation of electricity in total so not renewable electricity electricity in total is something like 24 pet award hours so we would essentially need the same amount of electricity as we are producing today to produce the chemicals in future in a renewable way keeping in mind that we also need the renewable electricity to make heat and mobility and there is the point where I say like there is this is nice technology and we can do a lot with that but the question is so from my point of view we cannot reach that so we need definitely to reduce so we need to reduce in all the other ways we need to reduce chemicals we need to reduce all kinds of energy usage and that on a severe level because we just don't have enough energy to make that or we are not from my perspective not able to produce in a sufficient time scale enough electricity to do so but we could still do something and keep our like luxury level at least at some level for the next time in the next generations and at the end I would just want to show you very briefly where I think this energy might come from and I want to show you that map and this map is basically the sun shining on the earth like the in in what per square meter is that that colored scale and there is a reason there's two reasons why I put that map the way you see it first because it's anyway useful to change perspective from time to time and not be in the center of the world and the other thing is that today it's very often that the southern hemisphere depends on the northern hemisphere for a lot of reasons but in that case we depend on the southern hemisphere and we want to make that in a social and fair way and not in a new colonial way we essentially need to go to them and ask them would you please generate energy carrying products for us because we need them otherwise our society will break apart because this drop in luxury we can't just can't afford for our society and what I would do in large scale is putting their down there concentrated solar power plants which are really able to produce very high amounts of electricity in a fairly easy way on on on small small scale and you can produce like all day and night because you can store the heat in the in the liquid salt and you could place like plants there which produce for example methanol and ship it to us like yeah in that way and yeah with that I think I have some few minutes left but I'm already at the end of the talk and I thank you for your kind attention but for the questions I want to just start something you see the source here climate clock a clock.net to just show you how severe the discussion is yeah and with that again thank you for your attention and I'm happy to try to answer your questions all right since there's a longer break after this talk we can take a couple of questions and so if you have a question for Jonas please come to one of the two microphones in the room and ask a brief and concise question so we can be quick about it but maybe there are actually no questions or maybe one yeah right great talk how are we gonna capture all the CO2 because that's infrastructure isn't there yet. There is so the infrastructure is not there but the technology is there especially when concerning point sources like going to some factory which produces CO2 there we need to keep in mind that deal between renewable electricity like what is the footprint of our electricity and what are we producing but we have some processes like for example concrete production were inherently in the process we are producing CO2 that could be one option and there are some startups around the world who are making direct air capture and who are quite efficiently especially if they have heat source or weight heat source around they can very efficiently capture already today very pure CO2 from ambient air around us so the technology is there the infrastructure is not. All right then we're just gonna take that last question please. You mentioned that we need about the same amount of electrical energy that we have today for this power to X so what amount of power of electricity do we have renewable installed today? I actually have no idea about the worldwide installed electricity I know that we are in Germany where we always say we are very good but we actually are not like our footprint is something around 450 if you remember the scale before that's on the far outside end of this graphs in like the intermediate value over the year. Yeah I think there is one page I can recommend to you electricity map where they collect data like this and you can see like how green is the electricity in different countries but yeah basically I don't know I know that the Chinese are producing a whole lot of renewable energies even if they are still building coal plants but they are really going on with that so it's getting better but it's still way too slow. All right thank you so much for taking the questions thanks for the great talk and that concludes our Q&A session. Thanks Jonas.
 It's my great pleasure to introduce you to the next talk.  It's going to be by Jonas Geisler.  He's going to talk about Power to X and dive a little bit into carbon capturing and utilization.  So I'm especially interested in this since our planet is burning and we're trying really  hard to save it.  So I hope Jonas can give us some hints about how that might be possible.  So please give a warm welcome to Jonas.  Thank you.  Yeah, hi.  A warm welcome from my side as well to my talk.  And as already announced, I will talk about how to make things from electricity or Power  to X.  And the outline of my talk is first, what is the idea behind Power to X and what does  this mysterious X might stand for?  Then I want to talk about carbon capture and utilization like a group of techniques which  fall under this large word of Power to X.  Then I want to talk about the energy sector a little and the chemistry sector, so where  this could be applied and why this might make sense to do this in the hopefully very near  future.  So yeah, the phrase Power to X, basically the idea is when we're generating renewable  energy, we produce at certain times sufficient electricity, at certain times not sufficient  electricity and at other times surplus electricity.  And this surplus electricity, the idea was what to do with it.  Like we have it as a resource, do something with it.  And there is where the first word you will find when you're searching for Power to X  terms comes into the game which is the trivial solution which is Power to Value.  So make something valuable.  And we'll see later on that the idea of using surplus energy won't be enough but that's  basically the idea.  By the way, Power in that case usually is electricity.  So not that you're confused, Power refers always to electricity.  Then when we got this idea like Power to Value, we can ask us the question like what do we  need and there comes the next group of terms we can use into play and the first one I want  to present you is Power to Power.  So now you might think that's stupid.  We have Power.  Why should we do something to make Power?  But that's basically referring to all the energy storage things like storing to make  the grid stable for times where we don't have sufficient electricity supply and use it then.  The next is Heat.  Heat is one of the main fields besides electricity where we put energy in.  So why not make Heat with that Power?  Third one, Mobility.  Same thing, we have a certain field where we need a lot of energy.  Let's bring electricity to that field.  The next thing, Chemicals.  That will be something I will talk a lot about because carbon capture and utilization is mainly  about chemicals.  Yeah, can we use that electricity to produce chemicals in an efficient way and in a renewable  way?  And the last term one might find is Food in that field.  One might find more terms but this is basically what is the most common.  So maybe we can also use it to produce some food.  Yeah, now we have our needs in a basic.  The question is now what products can we actually make?  And there we come to a very often heard term, Power to Gas.  This mainly refers to Methane and Hydrogen where we have another terms Power to Methane,  Power to Hydrogen.  So let's produce gases which are storing energy for us and we can apply them for certain things.  Very similar, Power to Fuel or Power to Liquid which is essentially the same.  Like when referring to fuels, by that term we very often think of liquid fuels and when  we're referring to liquids we very often think of fuel applications.  So that's rather similar.  And the next one would be Sun Gas.  Sun Gas is the mixture of carbon monoxide and hydrogen which is very often used in chemical  industry so I will talk about that later.  Power to Sun Gas is what's meant with that.  You can find Power to Ammonia.  Ammonia is one of the chemicals we are producing in a very large scale which is very energy  demanding, we're burning a lot of fossil fuels to make ammonia.  And the last one I want to show you is Protein which is a rather interesting idea as well  to make proteins directly using that energy by some chemistry.  Now how they are interconnected, so all these three energy applications refer mainly to  gas and fuel, a little to Sun Gas.  The chemicals of course, like when we're speaking of chemical products, that's all chemistry  and food as many ammonia due to virtualizer production and protein.  But I won't talk too much about food, ammonia and proteins, I will mention ammonia at a  certain point but that's not the focus of the talk.  Now is that new and I would say no, that's just like modern bus wording.  Power to Power, we have since a long time, this is a hydro pump station from the 30s,  Power to Heat, you might know such devices from your grandparents, Power to Mobility,  this is a bus from the 40s and Power to Chemicals, this is a chloral-cali electrolyzer so producing  chlorine gas and sodium hydroxide solution from the 1920s.  So we have Power to whatever already, the thing is just in times of climate change and  an increasing amount of renewable energy, it becomes more interesting and new technologies  could be implemented but the general Power to something terms are nothing really new.  Now coming more to carbon capture and utilization, what we are doing in our energy sector usually  is we take fossil carbon, then we make some fuels out of it, we make one of those fields  of energy we are using and then we end up with CO2 and water.  If we think of the chemical sector, we are doing the same, we are making commodity chemicals  so like the large scale chemicals produced in really megaton scale worldwide and from  those we are producing all the fancy products we have around us and at the end of the life  hopefully we burn them or we degrade them to CO2 and water because if we don't do that  we end up with waste which is even more problematic usually.  So this is very linear, we are coming from fossil fuels and we are going to CO2 and water  and I guess that's not very new to you but carbon capture and utilization now means that  I capture this CO2 and water again and I utilize it and make exactly that fuels and commodity  chemicals to have a circle like no more CO2 should be produced but we are just driving  it in a circle.  Very important from the beginning we are not reducing CO2 as long as we are not producing  way more products as the products are already there and we are just bringing new products,  we are just lowering the amount of new CO2 emitted to make that clear, a lot of startups  say something like negative CO2 emissions by carbon capture and utilization, you need  to really look into the detail if they store somewhere the carbon or if they really do  carbon capture and utilization and then they usually have no negative emissions but I come  to that later again as well.  Now this looks nice but till now it's a perpetual mobile so of course we need to put in the  renewable energy and we could either do that directly by putting it into the energy sectors  and using this energy there or we could just drive that cycle around by putting it into  capturing CO2 from point sources we can't avoid or from the air around us which is a  little more complicated because the concentration is very low but still possible and also possible  on a large scale and in the end hopefully we get rid of this fossil carbon but just  having this cycle ongoing.  When we look at exactly the same thing from another point of view we come to for example  this energy scale and we see different carbon products and oxygen combined have a certain  energy level stored within the chemical bonds and what we usually do when we burn them which  happens at a certain point as I said we kick them over the activation barrier and then we  throw them all the way down the hill till we end up with CO2 and water which is really  what for chemists CO2 and water is quite stable so we're really down at the bottom of the  energy somehow which is good because we wanted to get this energy out of the reaction but  which also is a problem because now we need to bring that back up again and the question  is how could we do that how does that work can we just heat up CO2 and water and all  our nice products fall out again that's sadly not that easy and at first I want to talk  about techniques which are already like have a technology readiness level very high so  which could be implemented in large scale reactions kind of already like minor optimizations  still needed but we could do that today and therefore we take apart the water and the  CO2 part and the first step we make water electrolysis just to remind you like water electrolysis  you put two electrodes into a salt solution you apply electricity and from the anode you  will have oxygen evolving and from the cathode you will have hydrogen evolving so far so  easy like for chemists we know that optimizing that is not that easy but it's known technology  we can still make it better but it's out there so now we have hydrogen and oxygen like we  already produced the oxygen we put in in the beginning now we want to have our product  and therefore we combine this hydrogen and CO2 and then we go over certain reactions  which are downhill in energy so we are getting energy out of that again but why because the  products are uphill that is because we put in more hydrogen from the beginning to produce  again water so we're splitting water and using that water to reduce the CO2 to our products  and we form water at the same time now you might have seen such pictures in school at  a certain time when people were talking about catalysts and a catalyst from what I hear  from people who tell me what they heard in school is this strange things which makes  erection fast or some people still remember the thing that lowers the activation barrier  but what does actually happen there and I want to make the experiment to get you a better  glimpse of what a catalyzed reaction looks like by visualizing it and therefore we take  this picture we have that very nice catalyst surface which is very ordered which is not  the reality for the experts this is also not the outcome of some simulation or whatever  it's just a visualization how such a reaction could look like in the micro scale on the  surface for single molecules and atoms and now this CO2 is a linear molecule somewhere  in the gas phase or in a liquid phase which makes it more complex but we're just looking  at the CO2 here above this catalyst surface and if we have the right material what could  happen is that the CO2 absorbs to the one surface atom or to a group of surface atoms  and you already see that I drawn the CO2 molecule bent so it's not linear anymore and that might  be already one step where the activation barrier is reduced because it's now accessible for  reactions from some angles which were not there before and the electron density is different  and all that so that might be more reactive than before just by absorbing it to that surface  now we want to react it this with hydrogen now we so we put in a hydrogen molecule and  some catalysts for example are capable of splitting that hydrogen molecule where it would never  happen in normal cases and this might look like this so we form something we call surface  hydride so we have single hydrogen atom sitting on the surface and they are split up at a  rather low temperatures and now we have that in very close proximity on the surface and  what could happen is that one of the hydrogen atoms just jumps to one of the oxygen atoms  and we form the surface carbonyl group this carbonyl group already is our first reaction  we have reduced carbon dioxide to something not really useful yet but we already did it  next step the other hydrogen could jump to the very same oxygen so this is not stable  this oxygen has three bonds in that case this should in most of the cases break apart and  this is exactly what happens and we form water which is in the gas phase and we have carbon  monoxide still bound to the surface and now we could do all kinds of things so if the  surface keeps that CO out-sorbed we can react it further and make one carbon containing  small molecules like methane, methanol, all that stuff or we can have another carbon monoxide  at the same surface very close and then something similar could happen like where the hydrogen  atom reacted with the oxygen but the two carbon atoms in a close proximity now react and that's  where we form longer carbon chains and there we make more complex molecules so not really  complex still like two carbon atoms three carbon atoms ten carbon atoms in the chain  or something but yeah we form a product and the last thing which could happen this catalyst  is just not capable to keep that carbon monoxide on the surface and it desorbs and we produce  carbon monoxide which could also be fine so I hopefully I could explain you now a little  more how this catalyst thing might work and now the question is what are their reactions  which we can use and the first thing you already seen water electrolysis is in that case the  first step you've also already seen the so-called reverse water gas shift reaction where we  produce carbon monoxide from CO2 and hydrogen even if in reality on the real catalyst this  might look a little different but similar to what I've shown you this could happen now  I said carbon monoxide can be a useful product and I come back to the synthesis gas or syngas  I already mentioned and with this in different mixtures we can do a lot of things like mixture  one or two to one produces LPG so liquid petroleum gas this is what you have in your camping  cooker bottles NAFTA is a certain fraction you usually get when you distill crude oil  which is very useful in chemical industry diesel which is also something like that if  you put in like two to one you get for example methanol ethanol demythyl ether or gasoline  and with a mixture of three to one you end up with methane or so-called SNG which is  synthetic natural gas so which means exactly the same basically because natural gas contains  mainly methane synthetic natural gas usually is methane so here we are already very happy  we have a three step process and we produce all kinds of things we can use the problem  is by having a lot of steps in a reaction we multiply the efficiency and there by the  efficiency goes down so we are always very happy if we can produce things in few steps  so there's for example the reaction of CO2 and hydrogen to methanol directly on one catalyst  in one step so we only have the efficiency loss of one step instead of two steps the reverse  water gas shift and the corresponding syngas reaction so we might have an increase in efficiency  by doing that if that reaction is more efficient than the two steps combined same principle  with the subatee reaction that would take CO2 and hydrogen and make directly methane  without going two steps one reaction I want to mention here even if it's not carbon capture  and utilization it's the harbour Bosch reaction because in principle it works the same we  could make the hydrogen from water electrolysis and react that with nitrogen and there's exactly  where the reduction in producing ammonia in a way that is more sustainable comes in because  usually the hydrogen and chemical industry today is produced by a lot of fossil fuels  so you burn fossil fuels with too little oxygen to fully burn it and you get a lot of hydrogen  out of there so if we would just use hydrogen from water electrolysis which is more expensive  today but would be way more sustainable just to give you one further example is I want  to point out on this direct methanol synthesis for a second and we form methanol and the  picture you see is the George Ola plant in Iceland and it's named after a very interesting  person who made the concept of a methanol economy so like basically like our today's  economy is a oil economy where we produce nearly everything we have around us from  oil he proposes an economy that uses methanol as the central resource and that's why they  called this plant after him because they are producing four kilotons a year of methanol  or at least they have the capacity to do so this might seem not too much when looking  at a hundred megaton a year worldwide methanol consumption but keep in mind that's just one  plant and we also don't have just one plant producing methanol today and it's one of the  first plants who does exactly that producing seed from CO2 and water by the use of quasi  renewable energy in form of geothermal energy producing methanol for the people who are  interested typical catalyst which you could use for this process would be a combination  of copper and zinc oxide I'm not sure if they are using it because they for sure don't  tell which catalyst they are using but this would be would be something typical one could  use let's go back to this picture where you said away I showed you all these steps we  are going through in the processes I've shown you till now these are the processes like  I said which are on a technology readiness level that we could do that today basically  but you've seen it's a lot of steps and I told you that a lot of steps sometimes is  not good so let's look a little more into the future and could we go like one step and  there's something promising and this is actually the field where I'm working in in a more detailed  way in my PhD and this is electro catalytic CO2 reduction so you've seen the same picture  as in the slide before where I explained water electrolysis so what do we change we put in  CO2 and then for sure we need to change the catalyst material I don't know if you really  seen that but the color of the one electrode changed and what will happen then when we  have the right catalyst we get directly our renewable carbon product or like yeah hydro  carbon product and what could be those products the first one formic acid formic acid is a  chemical which has a certain role in chemical industry several kilotons a year it's not  too large but we can produce it that way and already kind of efficient it is not like industrial  level yet but but that that works and we can do the carbon monoxide which I also said before  that is useful and there I know that some German companies are right now bill trying  to build a commercial plan to do exactly that in that step I won't mention companies because  I don't want to make stupid advertisements but there is something going on other products  we could do could make is methane and ethylene methane again synthetic natural gas and ethylene  it would be the real thing because ethylene is I think the chemical made from from oil  like the largest chemical made from oil cause we're producing a lot of polyethylene as plastics  and we can use it also for all the other kinds of things we as well we has a very large variety  to make things out of ethylene but methane and ethylene to be honest are more on a scale  where it works in the lab and it's still not really sure if we can bring that to industrial  scale but it might work and yeah like I said that's what I'm trying to work on or being  part of large community working on that so now I've talked a lot about the processes  and the chemistry behind it let's see can we use that and like I said to you I want  to talk about the energy sector and just to give you an estimation the primary energy  consumption of the world is something like 600 exajoules a year which equals something  like 167 petawatt hours that's what we are using in form of gas and oil and coal and  renewables like all the things we put into the energy sector in the beginning and the  three different things I told you before electricity transport of mobility and heat  are roughly a third of each like in Germany we need a little more heat because of cold  winters and in other parts of the world we have a little more electricity so rough estimation  one third each so now the question is if we can mainly produce renewable energies in the  form of electricity how do we bring that into that field and we can start with something  which is very well known mechanical storage and pumping up water or hill and we can calculate  roughly one kilogram of water we're pumping uphill for a hundred meters and we roughly  come out at something like 0.3 watt hours which are contained within the water yeah  more uphill that's something and that's useful we've seen that people are doing that with  hydro pump storage but we might put in more energy and then we can go to terminal energy  storage and now we take the same kilogram of water and heat it up from 25 degrees roughly  room temperature to boiling and we see we come to something like 87 kilowatt hours in  the same exact same kilogram of water this is rough a factor of two orders of magnitude  so now we can go to chemical storage which is the thing I'm talking to you since roughly  half an hour and there we can put in 3.7 kilowatt hours by splitting the water into hydrogen  and oxygen this is again something like two orders of magnitude higher that's the reason  basically why you don't see cars driving around with hydro pump storage because we couldn't  just bring in enough water and height into the into the into the car to make that but  we you only have chemicals or electrochemicals driving a car now when we go to electrochemical  storage I want to show you this so-called ragoni plot which draws the energy density  by weight so how much energy in one kilogram over the energy density by volume how much  energy in one liter and if you are not too familiar with the jewels up there there is  one mega joule is something like a quarter kilowatt hour now let's take the absolute  standard which is lead acid like car batteries which is down there it's also has its applications  and weight wise it's still the largest energy market just cause lead is heavy but we are  still producing mainly lead acid concerning weight some of you might remember nickel cut  mium which is prohibited due to the toxic catmium the better thing is a nickel metal  hydride that's what you know from like normal the cylindrical battery shaped rechargeable  batteries that's nickel metal hydride and then of course lithium ion technology we can  bring in a lot of energy into these batteries and you all have that in a whole lot of devices  but if that's still not enough we need to go to a different scale and we put all the  batteries down there and now we come to hydrogen hydrogen is somewhere in that region and why  is it in such a broad region it's cause we have hydrogen storage in materials which is  essentially a sponge suck in up hydrogen but we have that additional material in the storage  so it becomes heavier and is low in the energy density by weight we have the gaseous and the  at 700 bar compressed and the liquefied so that's what makes up this square but we see  now we are very good in energy density by weight hydrogen is very light but by density  we there's still place above there and there is where the sea based materials come in and  for to give you some examples there we have methanol down there we have gasoline up there  and that's also why electric vehicle doesn't drive that far but is like three times as  heavy as a normal car that's exactly the thing why gasoline is so good and from my personal  perspective I can't imagine a jet flying with batteries cause they would be too heavy we  need some fuel that drives them which is lighter and denser so yeah that's why the carbon  products are very interesting and another thing why carbon products are very interesting  is cause we know how to handle them we have a large infrastructure all around the globe  to transport them to store them to supply them to the applications we know what to do  we just need to install capacities to produce them from a renewable way but where are the  downsides if we're looking at the downsides we come to that graph and I really want to  emphasize the work of the group of Andre Bardot which do a really great work in making this  life cycle assessments of these technologies and what we see is the global warming impact  measured in kilogram CO2 equivalents so like greenhouse gases in general coming from certain  products we are producing via carbon capture and utilization techniques so we have this  orange dotted lines and methane we have this violet line is jet fuel and different kinds  of things and it's drawn over the global warming impact of the electricity we use to drive  that process and the vertical line is fossil diesel so if we are above that line by driving  that carbon capture and utilization cycle we are producing more greenhouse gases than  just using fossil diesel and then we have this horizontal line I think I said vertical  line the horizontal line is the fossil diesel the vertical lines are the grid mixes of certain  countries the intermediate grid mixes for example the one right out there at something  like 370 grams you the two equivalent per kilowatt hour is the U grid mix proposed for  2020 then we have the U grid mix for 2050 which is still not sufficient to produce anything  we have Switzerland with this which is on the border of there could be something useful  we have France which are very low in global warming impact of their electricity because  they are using a lot of nuclear power which is a total different discussion if that is  by any means helpful but they could do something on that field and at the best we have Iceland  which has really high amount of green electricity in their grid and we have the wind benchmark  which is the technology which is also not zero because we are producing for example a  lot of concrete to build the windmill and that produces a lot of CO2 but it is still  the best technology we have global warming impact wise so yeah it makes only sense if  we have a lot of very green electricity going to the chemical sector we have a graph that  is slightly more complicated but it essentially says it shows the mass flows from fossil fuels  to the 20 largest chemicals produced from fossil fuels usually which have 75% of the  greenhouse gas emissions of the chemical industry so that is like a model which can refer to  basically the whole chemical industry and they modeled it for these 20 chemicals and  we see this fossil fuels are over different processes split up in what I said before ethyl  methanol polyolefin so plastics aromatics I didn't speak a lot about them but or essentially  not anammonium which is not a carbon base but as I said we put in a lot of fossil fuels  to produce it.  Now what is the alternative of this thing which is the proposed mass flows so like the  size of the line refers to a mass flow to this mass flows which are proposed for 2030  by just using fossil fuels on.  I said when I showed you methanol it said something like methanol economy and they  made a model it's again worked from the group of Andri Bardo where they basically use methanol  as the central chemistry because they say this is high in technology readiness level  so we could do that right away but if you see that right the outcome should be the same  like we're producing a certain amount of chemicals in 2030 maybe and not should not depend on  the way we produce it how much we need of it so actually we can scale that down here  so if we make that and capture the carbon dioxide and use hydrogen by the way here the hydrogen  you see the hydrogen mass flow going in this comes from water this is why a lot of water  comes out of this reaction which is the grey part on the top right part of the this methanol  pathway and we would need to put in even more water and split it at the beginning cause some  of the water for sure ends up in our products that's why we are doing that so we would need  to put in a whole lot of water to make that and we would have massive mass flow so we  would have by many factors or by a huge factor larger chemical industry if we would do that  cause we would also need plants to capture the carbon dioxide and so on and so on and  now the exact same question does that make sense and here is two models so I showed  you the high TRL model which is again technology readiness level so can we do it today or is  it something we could do maybe in future and the orange area is the we can maybe do that  today area and it's the same graph as I shown you in the electricity part or in the sorry  in the energy part just the other way around like zero that time is on the right side and  we see like again we would need to have a whole lot of renewable electricity which is  really clean not a grid mix from today.  Now we can come to another graphic like how much electricity would we need to do that  and this graph shows like the different lines the colored lines are different global warming  impacts of the electricity I put in so zero would be the best thinkable so I have zero  emission electricity I put in so I go down that line and it's drawn over the additional  electricity we need so how much do we need to install extra to what we have today and  on the sides the scales is cradled to grave greenhouse emissions which is from my side  the meaningful thing cause that says like how much greenhouse gases do I emit from producing  the chemical till degrading or burning it at the end of their life so how much extra  CO2 comes out and the other side is Cradle to Gate which is more interesting for a company  like I take CO2 and make something with it how much do I produce from starting to my  factory gate where I ship the product and that's also why Cradle to Gate emissions can  be negative so we can store CO2 there and they cannot be negative when we're looking  at Cradle to Grave at least not if we're burning the product in the end of the lifetime and  we see we need a lot of electricity the scale down there is in pet award hours and just  to give you a number the today's generation of electricity in total so not renewable electricity  electricity in total is something like 24 pet award hours so we would essentially need  the same amount of electricity as we are producing today to produce the chemicals in future in  a renewable way keeping in mind that we also need the renewable electricity to make heat  and mobility and there is the point where I say like there is this is nice technology  and we can do a lot with that but the question is so from my point of view we cannot reach  that so we need definitely to reduce so we need to reduce in all the other ways we need  to reduce chemicals we need to reduce all kinds of energy usage and that on a severe  level because we just don't have enough energy to make that or we are not from my perspective  not able to produce in a sufficient time scale enough electricity to do so but we could still  do something and keep our like luxury level at least at some level for the next time in  the next generations and at the end I would just want to show you very briefly where I  think this energy might come from and I want to show you that map and this map is basically  the sun shining on the earth like the in in what per square meter is that that colored  scale and there is a reason there's two reasons why I put that map the way you see it first  because it's anyway useful to change perspective from time to time and not be in the center  of the world and the other thing is that today it's very often that the southern hemisphere  depends on the northern hemisphere for a lot of reasons but in that case we depend on the  southern hemisphere and we want to make that in a social and fair way and not in a new  colonial way we essentially need to go to them and ask them would you please generate  energy carrying products for us because we need them otherwise our society will break  apart because this drop in luxury we can't just can't afford for our society and what  I would do in large scale is putting their down there concentrated solar power plants  which are really able to produce very high amounts of electricity in a fairly easy way  on on on small small scale and you can produce like all day and night because you can store  the heat in the in the liquid salt and you could place like plants there which produce  for example methanol and ship it to us like yeah in that way and yeah with that I think  I have some few minutes left but I'm already at the end of the talk and I thank you for  your kind attention but for the questions I want to just start something you see the  source here climate clock a clock.net to just show you how severe the discussion is yeah  and with that again thank you for your attention and I'm happy to try to answer your questions  all right since there's a longer break after this talk we can take a couple of questions  and so if you have a question for Jonas please come to one of the two microphones in the  room and ask a brief and concise question so we can be quick about it but maybe there  are actually no questions or maybe one yeah right great talk how are we gonna capture  all the CO2 because that's infrastructure isn't there yet.  There is so the infrastructure is not there but the technology is there especially when  concerning point sources like going to some factory which produces CO2 there we need to  keep in mind that deal between renewable electricity like what is the footprint of our electricity  and what are we producing but we have some processes like for example concrete production  were inherently in the process we are producing CO2 that could be one option and there are  some startups around the world who are making direct air capture and who are quite efficiently  especially if they have heat source or weight heat source around they can very efficiently  capture already today very pure CO2 from ambient air around us so the technology is there the  infrastructure is not.  All right then we're just gonna take that last question please.  You mentioned that we need about the same amount of electrical energy that we have today for  this power to X so what amount of power of electricity do we have renewable installed  today?  I actually have no idea about the worldwide installed electricity I know that we are in  Germany where we always say we are very good but we actually are not like our footprint  is something around 450 if you remember the scale before that's on the far outside end  of this graphs in like the intermediate value over the year.  Yeah I think there is one page I can recommend to you electricity map where they collect  data like this and you can see like how green is the electricity in different countries  but yeah basically I don't know I know that the Chinese are producing a whole lot of renewable  energies even if they are still building coal plants but they are really going on with that  so it's getting better but it's still way too slow.  All right thank you so much for taking the questions thanks for the great talk and that  concludes our Q&A session.  Thanks Jonas.
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