Funkwhale and the Importance of Decentralized Podcasting
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Ainsworth, Ciarán
Podcasts are inherently decentralized. As a medium, they rely on open standards and simple, straightforward tools to allow them to reach as wide an audience as possible. In recent years, however, the desire to monetize the format has started to change the shape of the podcasting landscape. With the acquisition of popular podcasts, platform holders such as Spotify have started a precipitous downward trend into centralization which flies in the face of what podcasts stand for. Luckily, there are many emerging platforms within the world of free software which aim to make the publication and dissemination of podcast content easier, more accessible, and more decentralized to combat this trend towards neo-corporate radio. As the developers of one of these platforms, the Funkwhale project has faced and still faces unique challenges designing the necessary tooling and anti-abuse features to enable users to host their own podacasting platform. This talk explores some of these issues, some of the solutions we have found, and why we believe it is important that users have free and open alternatives to centralized podcast hosts.
 Welcome to this talk on Funkwale and the importance of decentralized podcasting. It's just something that I'm doing as it's just a little outreach thing. So who am I? My name is Kieran Ainsworth. I am a member of the Funkwale Association who are the officers of the Funkwale platform. We have been developing it for a few years now. I joined Funkwale a couple of years ago as primarily a documentation writer. So I installed Funkwale after looking for some self-hosting tools and I approached the project and said, your documentation isn't particularly great. Would you mind if I helped rewrite it? And from there on I've kind of got more and more involved in different bits of the project. So I've been doing a lot of work with front-end development, documentation, community management and my role on the board is that I'm a member of the steering committee, which means that I am responsible for helping with development of roadmaps and research and development into different features that we might want to add at some other time. So what is Funkwale? First and foremost, as you can see there, very nice little interface design. Funkwale is essentially a music and audio platform to put it very, very basically. But more specifically, it is a free and open source project. It's a self-hosted server software with a front-end web application for playing music. And the thing that kind of sets it apart is that it is federated. So it's built on the same software as other federated applications such as Mastered-On, Plaremar, PixelFed, PeerTube, Real2Bits and all the others. We all use the same software to interact with one another, something called the Activity Pub Protocol. And basically, it just allows us to be a bit more interactive with other Funkwale servers and also other software in the Fediverse. And when Funkwale started up, it was primarily focused around music. The name comes from the fact that the original developer of the software, Agap Berrio, wanted a free self-hosted version of Groove Shark, something that she could put music into and then create playlists and radios from. So that's kind of where the pedigree came from. We come from that music background. But nowadays, we're focused on many things. Music collections are still part of it, but we also have audio publication tooling and content sharing as part of our sort of genetic makeup. So a little while ago, we were looking at our roadmap. So around about September, October, 2019, we started to look seriously at where did we want to take the project. At the time, we had just moved away from having Agap as essentially the benevolent dictator for life and we're looking at moving towards a more democratic system of governance where we would ask the users to provide us with insights and guidance on what they would like to see in the platform. And when we started approaching them with options, one of the things we found was that podcasting was a very, very widely requested feature, which was something I don't necessarily think we were expecting, but it was definitely something that people were very interested in. At the time, the Fediverse, in general, lacked a proper sort of platform for things like podcasting. We had music, we had so I'm just going to adjust my volume, somebody's saying it's a little bit low. We had music, we had video, we had things like micro blogging and we had image sharing, but we didn't have podcasting. So that was something that people seemed to be quite interested in. So when people came to us and suggested that, that fitted in quite nicely with another thing that we were looking to do in general, which was content publication. So we looked at it as an opportunity to develop an entire new structure, not just around podcasts, but also around music publication. So that we were moving away from just hosting your CD collection and maybe some bits and pieces that you had done yourself to actually publishing the content and putting it through to the Fediverse directly. So that was kind of the background as to why we got into podcasting in general. Very quickly, we saw that there were going to be a lot of challenges with this particular bit of work. The biggest one really was we as a collective didn't really know all that much around podcasting. None of us were podcasters. We listened to podcasts sometimes, but not very often. I myself only listened to a few. So we very quickly realized that we were going to need to approach people who did this sort of thing all the time. We were going to need to ask people who knew about this stuff, had sort of experience working with lots of different bits and pieces in the current climate in order to build something that fit with their expectations and also addressed some of their frustrations, anything that frustrated them. The other problem was, as I mentioned before, we are a music publication platform or we were a music hosting platform. So this podcasting and publication stuff was not in our DNA. It required quite a lot of architecting on the back end to really get something that would work for publication. We needed to rethink a lot of things because we'd been making assumptions about audio in general based on music collections, which of course is a very different thing to podcasting. The other thing we didn't really know or understand was, what should it look like from beginning to end for a podcaster to publish something? We kind of understood it for musicians. It was a bit simpler. You'd have albums and you would have tracks that go in those albums, but we didn't really know all that much about podcasting. So in order to get that information, we decided to form a podcasting task force, as it were. And this task force basically consisted of members of the Funkwell Association and a group of people from the podcasting subreddits, from the Fediverse, people who made podcasts all the time. And we basically brought them all into a chat room and we said, okay, so if we're going to design this, what do we absolutely need to do? What do we need to hit? What do you want to see? And what would kind of encourage you to come over to using our software to publish your podcasts, if that's something you would like to do? And it was something, the other thing we needed to work out was, we didn't really have an insight as people who didn't publish into what the competition was doing. So I say the competition, what other people who made this stuff were doing. So we very much needed to get that information from a firsthand experience and sort of pull that in to make sure that we were doing it correctly. And what we found was basically podcasts are hard. They're quite complex things where, especially the complexity exists on the back end, it exists within the software, but the user should be really getting a very simple front end to do things with. So we found that basically, whereas with music, Funkoil really didn't handle a lot of the more complex stuff like tagging. We let music brains handle that. If we were going to be publishing, we needed to start actually taking on board that complexity and sort of facilitating it in our publication layer. And podcasts of course offered a slightly different way of doing things because there was less metadata to be included and it was less catalogued than something like music. The other thing that was very, very strongly put forward by the people who we talked to was that there exist in the podcasting world standards. We have certain ways of doing things and that has to be retained no matter which tool we use. So for example, we need to use RSS. We absolutely have to include an RSS feed. Images need to be correctly sized. The RSS feed must be consumable by tools such as iTunes and Apple Podcasts, which means we have to include certain fields that only exist for iTunes and Apple Podcast. The other thing we came to realize was that people were going to be using us as a podcast publication tool, but we also needed to act as the podcatcher because our current make up at the time was to be a music hosting tool, but also an application which played music. We needed to give that same experience for podcasts. It needed to be that people could publish content, but also take the content they already liked and put it into Funkwell. And then the last sort of big thing that came from this was the sudden realization that if you're going to have two or more servers talking to each other a lot more, you're going to need to really strengthen the moderation tools that you have in place, especially when we're talking about user generated content. The scope for abuse on that is quite significant. So we needed to give users tools to be able to report things. We needed to give people tools to be able to block certain stuff. We needed to give administrators the ability to use things like enable lists so that they could prevent federation with certain other platforms. And we needed to give them the ability to ban users, take down channels, that sort of thing. So this was a whole lot of architectural design for podcasts, which it was really the podcasts that drove us to it. And what we came out with was basically a hybrid of a traditional sort of podcast overview and a Fediverse channel. So in our world, we have podcasting channels and music channels. And from what you can see in that sort of screenshot, it gives some sort of basic information. You get your artwork, you get your episodes, we can split things up into series, which was a big request that people had was the ability to create different series within the same channel. We have the ability to subscribe, which I'll go on to in a second. And obviously, if you're the channel owner, upload new content to make sure everything is working as expected. The important bit here that we have is the information about what's in that channel. So in this channel, this is mine, ignore it, it's terrible. But there's one episode and it's been listened to 13 times. And this was important information that we sort of worked out was needed in order for people to get a grip on like how are people interacting with my content. But taking that on board, we went ahead with the subscription capabilities. And as you can see, in the screenshot, we have kind of three options in every case. The first is, if you already have a Funkwell account, you can subscribe using your Funkwell account to that channel. And it will be one of those things that appears in your feed when a new episode is uploaded, you'll get notified that there's a new episode in the front end. The other thing you can do is subscribe via RSS. So going back to what we were saying earlier, we took a lot of, we put a lot of effort into making sure that our RSS feed was compatible as much as possible. And that anybody could go onto a sort of an open Funkwell channel and subscribe without having to sign up to Funkwell. Because one of the things we very quickly realized was we don't want people to feel like they have to sign up. We want people to be able to enjoy the content no matter what. And that really should be up to them where they listen to us, whether they listen to us on Funkwell or some other podcatcher. And the last one is subscription via the Fediverse. So that enables users to follow a channel in much the same way that they would follow a mastodon account or a plaramo account or something similar. So we're trying to hit all sort of boxes there of how you can keep up with somebody's content. The other thing that I've been doing some work on recently is more front end stuff, but it's just making sure that we sort of point people towards adding new content where possible, either by themselves, creating new channels or subscribing to things via RSS or via the Fediverse. So really pushing people towards that more, really pushing people towards that more sort of you know, creation element. We want people to create. So that's with the basics in place. This was the development work we did over the past sort of year or so. It's been a wild ride. There's been a lot of content that's gone in, a lot of changes made. There's still some changes to come. The most current release doesn't have some of the newer tools that are around podcasting, such as dedicated podcast searching and sort of wider accessibility of subscription tools. But we're not finished. There are still items on the roadmap that we would like to complete and still items that are not currently on the roadmap, which may need to be added in future to really help us to get involved with podcasting more. Because what we found is this is a market that we very much have enjoyed working in. And it's one that actually has proven quite popular with people that you know, people see Funkwell as a podcasting platform now. Even if you know, it was originally supposed to be music. This is how it's kind of evolved. So what do we have to kind of consider next to take a look at the future? To kind of consider next to take Funkwell to the next sort of level of you know, being a proper sort of alternative to what's currently out there. The first thing that strikes me as necessary is Funkwell currently allows you to import RSS feeds from external podcasts. It currently allows you to follow podcasts on the Fediverse, on Funkwell, and it currently allows you to publish your own. But what we don't have at the moment is any way of finding external podcasts. You still have to leave Funkwell to go and find the RSS feed that you're looking for. You still have to you know, go and see where things are, go and find them on something like iTunes or feed or Spotify and grab the RSS feed and bring it back to Funkwell. Which of course from a user experience point of view, it is not great. It's basically meaning that Funkwell is not yet the one-stop-shop for podcasts that we might want it to be. So one of the things that I would quite like to see you know, come in in future is a podcast discovery for an external sore front. I have built myself a kind of proof of concept of how we might do this using the iTunes API. But there are different things out there such as feed and others that we might want to consider looking at. The other thing is an improved sort of publication workflow. At the moment, the publication workflow, it works, things go in, you get a podcast out of it, it generates an RSS feed for you. But we have had people raise issues with it specifically around how do I edit metadata during that upload process. The problem I think is because the way we designed the front end, it was more of a, it was more in line with how we'd worked with music previously, which is to say upload many files which have been previously tagged and just kind of let them be. Whereas of course if you're doing an upload of podcasts, you want to basically upload an episode, title it, tag it, put some artwork with it, give it a license, do all of that stuff, and then move on to the next one. Or if you know you're going to be uploading multiple episodes of a series, you might want to have a tool say that you can put them all in a series and say number them automatically. At the moment, we don't have that. If you upload multiple things, a pencil icon appears next to each one and you can click through them and edit them all, but it's not very obvious how you do that. So that's been raised as something that needs to be addressed. We've had some designs submitted for how we might go about doing that, which looks to be a lot better. The other one is something I'm going to come onto in the second part of this, and that is the introduction of links to donation services. At the moment, hosting your podcast on Funkwale is great, but it's the same as hosting it anywhere else. What we want to be pushing people towards or encouraging is this idea of supporting people who create. The best way to do that in our eyes is to promote the idea of donation services and promote the idea of helping to support the podcast that you like. We don't want to be a payment handler, obviously, but we do want to help make it a lot more visible when there is a service that you can actually put money towards. The last one, it's been on the road map since channels were introduced. It's very, very complex. As somebody who does not work on the back end, I don't really have the technological knowledge to go into it, but there is this idea of channel claiming where if somebody uploads some music to a channel and it's not their music, the person whose music it is should be able to claim that channel and take control of it. As you can imagine, that's a very, very complex thing to do, particularly over federation because you have all of the different implications of the wider fediverse to take into account there. It's our biggest boon. It's also our biggest challenge day-to-day is working with that federation. But that moves me on to my next point, which is all about sort of decentralized podcasting. This may seem like a strange concept to people who do podcasting because podcasts are decentralized by design, really. I didn't know a lot about podcasts going into this. As I say, it was very much a learning experience, but the more reading I did into podcasts as part of the research that we did for this, the more fascinated I became by how they work and how they're set up. The thing that struck me was podcasts occupy this unique space of being very, very disruptive low-tech, certainly audio podcasts, video podcasts as well, sort of disruptive low-tech standards-compliant ways of communicating a lot of information. Podcasts can be hosted anywhere. As long as they generate a valid feed, anybody can capture them into a podcatcher and play the files linked using a relevant piece of software. That means that the potential listener base is enormous, much more so than anything based on a single platform, a centralized platform. This was one of the reasons that when we were designing the podcast publications tools, we were so emphatic about being a part of that existing infrastructure, making sure that we didn't try to lock people into our way of thinking, but instead follow what podcasting was already doing because it already seemed pretty great. We had things like RSS feeds, we had good encodings being used like MP3, which could be so widely used. It's kind of ubiquitous at this point. That's a really important part of it. The reason that this came to my attention was during some of the conversations we were having with podcasters, and specifically when we were looking at Funkwell as a podcatcher, so something that consumes RSS feeds and plays them back, somebody had said something about a specific podcast. I think it was called the last podcast on the left. They said basically, it's a shame, I won't be able to play this through Funkwell because they are going Spotify exclusive, and so they're not producing an RSS feed anymore. This worries me slightly. It's a concerning trend away from what podcasts stand for, from my understanding of what podcasts stand for. Because when you go exclusive to something like Spotify, you have the introduction of DRM and you're creating a walled garden around content. And certainly for content that used to be free and open, so it used to follow the same rules as everything else, for it to suddenly go into a platform specific publication is a big break. There are a couple of reasons for this, but the primary one is let's say that with podcasting, the only limitation for a user is that they have a machine that has software that is capable of listening to that podcast. It's capable of reading the feed and playing back the audio. That's your limitation. If you put it onto something like Spotify, you actually divide this into four, four different experiences. The first two are users who live in a country that have access to Spotify. And those people will have two experiences. One, they will either listen to an ad supported version of the show. And the second one is that they pay for a subscription to the actual podcast, sorry, to the actual platform. Then you have people who go into other, who live in other countries, which don't have Spotify served up to them. And those people have more experiences. One is that they have to pay for a VPN and basically access Spotify externally using the ads. And then again, access externally using a subscription. And then there's that lost fifth one, which is they don't have the money for any of this. So they can't listen. So we fractured the user base by centralizing the content into a certain place. And the problem with something like Spotify is at that point, when you've done that and you've taken that sort of, you've taken that decentralized nature away, what you have left is not a podcast, it's essentially corporate radio. And like I say, for something that started off as a podcast, there's something that started off freely available. Having it move in that way is somewhat concerning. But at the same time, we have to look at why does that happen? And generally the answer is podcasting is expensive. Everything that takes up people's time is expensive. And podcasting from the little I have done of it is very expensive. You've got to take the time to script and record and edit and work with all of that audio and video, you've got to find a place to publish it, you've got to do all of the promotion around it. And if you are looking to make money off of it, you have to search around for sponsorships and add deals and things like that. So when a company like Spotify comes along and says we'll take all of that complexity off of your hands, we'll give you a good portion of money to pay your staff and to make sure you can make a living, it's very, very tempting. And you can kind of understand why it happens. And one of the things that we kind of found was that the free software community in general is not always the best equipped to deal with that kind of thing. We can't make a counter offer to that. Our weapon here and what we can do about this is, as I've said before, kind of try as much as possible to make it easy for people to make the decision to continue listening outside of those platforms, make it easy for them to continue to support their favorite podcast directly, which means lowering the barrier to entry for payments, lowering the barrier of entry for sharing, for supporting, for getting things out there. But it's an inherently sort of difficult thing to come up against and something that, you know, we haven't found the answer for yet. It's something we've done discussions about, how we might help podcasters support themselves, how we might help people support podcasters and musicians as well as this stretches to all areas. But the answer is a difficult one. It's not one that sort of, you know, comes very easily. Now, I've purposefully sort of left this, I think I've got it exactly half an hour, that's good. I purposely didn't want this to go on for too long. That's kind of the journey that we've had. The first thing is, podcasting is fun. From a sort of user perspective, podcasts are wonderful to listen to. Having a good place to put podcasts is great for, you know, people who make them. From a software perspective, they're a bit of a nightmare, especially when they aren't what your software was originally sort of set up to do. There's a lot of work goes into it. It's, I think it's underestimated in general. But, you know, it's worth putting the effort in to get something like that. Free software world, the open source software world, we still face some significant challenges with assisting people with things like anything to do with finances is something where we struggle. And it's because we don't have that much of a monolithic approach. It's because we don't have that central financing. So it tends to be that, you know, we need to focus more on improving the experience of working within a sort of direct donation world and a direct sort of way of working. And yeah, this whole sort of trend of existing podcasts being picked up by companies and, you know, things that used to be so free and easily accessible, becoming walled off inside. I only know of Spotify doing it, but I can imagine the same thing happening with Apple Music and Deezer and a lot of others, is kind of a concerning move, which is diluting what was really quite a fantastic sort of idea. And it's a shame that it happens to some of the ones that people find, you know, people connect with the most strongly. I think two of the most popular podcasts that have been picked up are things like Joe Rogan and The Last Podcast on the Left, which is, it's a shame because high profile things being taken over has meaning and, you know, it will normalise it in my eyes at least. But with the use of free software tools, with the use of, you know, these open standards, real podcasting will never go away. It will always, you know, bubble up underneath. We will always see people continue to, you know, to put things out. So yeah, it's not all hopeless. This wasn't what that talk was about. It was more just about this is something I think is very important and something that, you know, as a project, we're really striving to support. So I think that takes me to quite now 35 minutes, which is exactly what I was aiming for. If anybody has any questions, I think that the, I think that the number has been put into the chat. It's plus 495361 890286 8001. And if you're using Event Phone, it's just 8001. I'll just have a look and see if anyone asked any questions in here. Let's have a look. Yeah, how do I find, how can I find a funquel instance for a podcast I'm planning that suits me, my needs and my content the best? Yeah, so the link there is a good idea. The get started guide, we actually have a sort of a pod picker, we call it, which is just something that sort of takes you through the summary of different pods, which is what we have we referred to servers. People can write a summary of what sort of content they want them there. The two biggest servers are open audio. And I think Tanuki tunes, which is my server is quite sort of big and open. There are lots of servers out there. So, if you find one where you think it would fit in here, then great. You know, usually just find one that has open registrations and sign up. Or if you're feeling brave, install it for yourself. It's a fairly easy install. There are some hosts that will host it for you. They're listed on the funquel.audio website. So, if you just wanted somebody to set it up for you so that you could host a podcast, then yes, you could sort of put it in there. Do you know the podcast index.org projects? I don't personally. I will look it up after this. That looks interesting. If there's a solution that is to be found that could work for podcasters, could it also be applicable to indie musicians or are the two fields way too different in order to accommodate both? I'll just finish this one. I think I've got a telephone person coming in. So, if there's but I mean, yes and no. If we're talking about supporting financially, then yes, in theory, we already have some of those. I mean, there are already donation platforms which kind of work for a multitude of things. So, really, I think we should be trying to sort of lean into things like Liberapay, Kofi, maybe Patreon, rather than sort of trying to solve that problem within the publication software. Because those features already exist and because that's already quite well established, having better interoperability between those tools is probably the best way forward. You just want to take the complexity away from the person listening. It'd be nice if they had something like, for example, you're listening to a song, you really like it. So, maybe you preload a certain amount of credits to your account every time you sort of play a song you really like. You can throw some credits that way. I don't know the complexity of the actual implementation is beyond me a little bit, as I say, I'm just a front-end guy. But I don't think there's that big a difference between them from that sort of perspective. Yeah, the servers were open.audio is the main sort of flagship server. My server is called tanookietunes.com. I'll put that link in. But there are lots of servers, as I say, if you go to the actual funkwell.audio website, they're there. Why should I, as a podcaster, decide against a centralized platform with lots of users for a decentralized one with only a few users? How can we dramatically increase the visibility of my project, now my product on Funkwell? It's a good question. The thing is with a centralized platform is you may be on a platform with a lot of users, but that doesn't mean that you're actually going to be seen by a lot of users. There is a lot of stuff on Spotify which never gets played. That's just the fact of it. There are so many, there's so much content on there that you are just, you know, you're just a grain of sand. Obviously, if you've got a sort of an established fan base and you've got a lot of people already listening to you, then that doesn't affect you. But in that case, it also wouldn't affect you if you were decentralized. Those same people would still be listening. And in fact, you would be able to reach more people. Podcasts kind of allow for word of mouth in a way that something centralized doesn't. It can be passed around a lot more, sort of virally. As for Funkwell, I mean Funkwell's greatest strength is the Fediverse with this. So the fact that the audio can be shared between people's servers and sort of streamed directly from server to server, the fact that it can be followed on a multitude of different platforms, is where the visibility would come from. It's that sort of viral sharing. But the fact that it also works outside of Funkwell, it also works just using a traditional sort of podcatcher, also plays into its favor. And that's where Spotify kind of falls apart. Yes, Spotify has a lot of users, but you do kind of cut off an entire core audience, which is the concern. Yeah, it's not a, there's no simple answer to this. It's kind of the way it goes. But it's, I feel like the point made earlier in the chat, which was that if you centralize it and you lock it behind a wall garden, it's no longer really a podcast. It kind of stands. It's not a podcast technically anymore. It's something different. And that's not necessarily a bad thing, but it is true. It's no longer what it was originally supposed to be. So, you know, it is best, I think, to try and make use of, you know, tools that fit into the existing podcast infrastructure. Okay, that looks like all of the questions. I don't think anybody's calling in. Which is fine. So, with that being the case, if there's no more questions, thank you very much for listening to me ramble about podcasts for 40 minutes. Obviously, if you'd like to check the project out, it's just at funkwell.audio. But also go out and support your favorite podcasters, whatever platform they're on. You know, God knows they'd appreciate it, especially in these times. Thank you very much. I think that's where I'm going to call it quits. I think we have a phone call. Okay. Okay. Someone on the phone? Yeah. Hello. Hi. Hello. Oh, wait, I'm live. I'm excusing for that one. I just want whether you're familiar with the website called for Godify.com. You brought up earlier that there's like tons of audio that has never been heard of that basically site. So it's like a song or a piece of material Spotify that has never been heard of before. What was the name of the site again? Sorry. For Godify.com. Oh, no, I've not heard of that. That's quite interesting. So it just plays stuff that doesn't get played much on Spotify. Yeah. Literally so with you, like a random song or a piece of audio that has been like distributed on Spotify but never heard before. I even heard some tracks from 2008 at nine. That's great. I really like that idea. Yeah, that is a genuine concern. I used to use Google Plus a lot because I'm that kind of person. And I was part of sort of publishing musicians club. And I had people on there who published on Spotify and they never got listened to. You know, it does take quite a lot for you to actually get picked up by Spotify's algorithms and to be sort of prioritized. So it's not the best solution for podcasts. There's I think there's a reason that only already popular podcasts are getting picked up for Spotify circulation. But you know, that sort of project sounds really interesting because it'd be fascinating to see what gets forgotten down the sort of cracks of the seat. So just speak. It's also a big job thing to play the game of the algorithm and stuff. I think that's one of the main reasons why I'm making music myself and so it's all mine personally. So that's why I'm a big fan of music. Yeah. Yeah, it is. It is. Anyway, thanks a lot. I'm not affiliated with the site of the site of all the three rooms and decided to serve that. Thanks. Yeah. No, thank you very much. That's really interesting to your own. Thank you. Bye. Okay. I thought we don't have any more calls going once going twice. Okay. Okay. No more calls. Okay. Thank you again for coming to watch. And I hope you have a great rest of your conference. Looks like it's going to be a lot of fun.
 Welcome to this talk on Funkwale and the importance of decentralized podcasting.  It's just something that I'm doing as it's just a little outreach thing.  So who am I? My name is Kieran Ainsworth. I am a member of the Funkwale Association  who are the officers of the Funkwale platform. We have been developing it for a few years  now. I joined Funkwale a couple of years ago as primarily a documentation writer. So I  installed Funkwale after looking for some self-hosting tools and I approached the project  and said, your documentation isn't particularly great. Would you mind if I helped rewrite it?  And from there on I've kind of got more and more involved in different bits of the project.  So I've been doing a lot of work with front-end development, documentation, community management  and my role on the board is that I'm a member of the steering committee, which means that I am  responsible for helping with development of roadmaps and research and development into  different features that we might want to add at some other time. So what is Funkwale? First  and foremost, as you can see there, very nice little interface design. Funkwale is essentially a  music and audio platform to put it very, very basically. But more specifically, it is a free  and open source project. It's a self-hosted server software with a front-end web application  for playing music. And the thing that kind of sets it apart is that it is federated. So it's built on  the same software as other federated applications such as Mastered-On, Plaremar, PixelFed, PeerTube,  Real2Bits and all the others. We all use the same software to interact with one another,  something called the Activity Pub Protocol. And basically, it just allows us to be a bit more  interactive with other Funkwale servers and also other software in the Fediverse.  And when Funkwale started up, it was primarily focused around music. The name comes from the fact  that the original developer of the software, Agap Berrio, wanted a free self-hosted version of  Groove Shark, something that she could put music into and then create playlists and radios from.  So that's kind of where the pedigree came from. We come from that music background.  But nowadays, we're focused on many things. Music collections are still part of it, but we also have  audio publication tooling and content sharing as part of our sort of genetic makeup.  So a little while ago, we were looking at our roadmap. So around about September, October, 2019,  we started to look seriously at where did we want to take the project. At the time, we had just moved  away from having Agap as essentially the benevolent dictator for life and we're looking at moving  towards a more democratic system of governance where we would ask the users to provide us with  insights and guidance on what they would like to see in the platform. And when we started  approaching them with options, one of the things we found was that podcasting was a very, very  widely requested feature, which was something I don't necessarily think we were expecting,  but it was definitely something that people were very interested in. At the time, the Fediverse,  in general, lacked a proper sort of platform for things like podcasting. We had music, we had  so I'm just going to adjust my volume, somebody's saying it's a little bit low. We had music, we had  video, we had things like micro blogging and we had image sharing, but we didn't have podcasting.  So that was something that people seemed to be quite interested in. So when people came to us  and suggested that, that fitted in quite nicely with another thing that we were looking to do in  general, which was content publication. So we looked at it as an opportunity to develop  an entire new structure, not just around podcasts, but also around music publication. So that we  were moving away from just hosting your CD collection and maybe some bits and pieces that you had  done yourself to actually publishing the content and putting it through to the Fediverse directly.  So that was kind of the background as to why we got into podcasting in general.  Very quickly, we saw that there were going to be a lot of challenges with this particular bit of  work. The biggest one really was we as a collective didn't really know all that much around podcasting.  None of us were podcasters. We listened to podcasts sometimes, but not very often. I myself  only listened to a few. So we very quickly realized that we were going to need to approach  people who did this sort of thing all the time. We were going to need to ask people who knew about  this stuff, had sort of experience working with lots of different bits and pieces in the current  climate in order to build something that fit with their expectations and also addressed some of their  frustrations, anything that frustrated them. The other problem was, as I mentioned before, we  are a music publication platform or we were a music hosting platform. So this podcasting and  publication stuff was not in our DNA. It required quite a lot of architecting on the back end to  really get something that would work for publication. We needed to rethink a lot of things because we'd  been making assumptions about audio in general based on music collections, which of course is a  very different thing to podcasting. The other thing we didn't really know or understand was,  what should it look like from beginning to end for a podcaster to publish something?  We kind of understood it for musicians. It was a bit simpler. You'd have albums and you would have  tracks that go in those albums, but we didn't really know all that much about podcasting.  So in order to get that information, we decided to form a podcasting task force, as it were.  And this task force basically consisted of members of the Funkwell Association and a group of people  from the podcasting subreddits, from the Fediverse, people who made podcasts all the time.  And we basically brought them all into a chat room and we said, okay, so if we're going to design this,  what do we absolutely need to do? What do we need to hit? What do you want to see? And what would  kind of encourage you to come over to using our software to publish your podcasts,  if that's something you would like to do? And it was something, the other thing we needed to work  out was, we didn't really have an insight as people who didn't publish into what the competition  was doing. So I say the competition, what other people who made this stuff were doing.  So we very much needed to get that information from a firsthand experience  and sort of pull that in to make sure that we were doing it correctly.  And what we found was basically podcasts are hard. They're quite complex things where, especially the  complexity exists on the back end, it exists within the software, but the user should be  really getting a very simple front end to do things with. So we found that basically, whereas  with music, Funkoil really didn't handle a lot of the more complex stuff like tagging.  We let music brains handle that. If we were going to be publishing, we needed to start  actually taking on board that complexity and sort of facilitating it in our publication layer.  And podcasts of course offered a slightly different way of doing things because there was less  metadata to be included and it was less catalogued than something like music. The other thing that  was very, very strongly put forward by the people who we talked to was that there exist in the podcasting  world standards. We have certain ways of doing things and that has to be retained no matter  which tool we use. So for example, we need to use RSS. We absolutely have to include an RSS feed.  Images need to be correctly sized. The RSS feed must be consumable by tools such as iTunes  and Apple Podcasts, which means we have to include certain fields that only exist for iTunes and  Apple Podcast. The other thing we came to realize was that people were going to be using us as a  podcast publication tool, but we also needed to act as the podcatcher because our current  make up at the time was to be a music hosting tool, but also an application which played music.  We needed to give that same experience for podcasts. It needed to be that people could  publish content, but also take the content they already liked and put it into Funkwell.  And then the last sort of big thing that came from this was the sudden realization that  if you're going to have two or more servers talking to each other a lot more, you're going to need  to really strengthen the moderation tools that you have in place, especially when we're talking  about user generated content. The scope for abuse on that is quite significant. So we needed to give  users tools to be able to report things. We needed to give people tools to be able to block certain  stuff. We needed to give administrators the ability to use things like enable lists so that they could  prevent federation with certain other platforms. And we needed to give them the ability to ban  users, take down channels, that sort of thing. So this was a whole lot of architectural design  for podcasts, which it was really the podcasts that drove us to it.  And what we came out with was basically a hybrid of a traditional sort of podcast overview  and a Fediverse channel. So in our world, we have podcasting channels and music channels.  And from what you can see in that sort of screenshot, it gives some sort of basic information. You get  your artwork, you get your episodes, we can split things up into series, which was a big request  that people had was the ability to create different series within the same channel.  We have the ability to subscribe, which I'll go on to in a second. And obviously, if you're the  channel owner, upload new content to make sure everything is working as expected.  The important bit here that we have is the information about what's in that channel. So in  this channel, this is mine, ignore it, it's terrible. But there's one episode and it's been  listened to 13 times. And this was important information that we sort of worked out was needed  in order for people to get a grip on like how are people interacting with my content.  But taking that on board, we went ahead with the subscription capabilities. And as you can see,  in the screenshot, we have kind of three options in every case. The first is, if you already have  a Funkwell account, you can subscribe using your Funkwell account to that channel. And it will be  one of those things that appears in your feed when a new episode is uploaded, you'll get notified  that there's a new episode in the front end. The other thing you can do is subscribe via RSS.  So going back to what we were saying earlier, we took a lot of, we put a lot of effort into  making sure that our RSS feed was compatible as much as possible. And that anybody could go onto  a sort of an open Funkwell channel and subscribe without having to sign up to Funkwell. Because  one of the things we very quickly realized was we don't want people to feel like they have to sign  up. We want people to be able to enjoy the content no matter what. And that really should be up to  them where they listen to us, whether they listen to us on Funkwell or some other podcatcher.  And the last one is subscription via the Fediverse. So that enables users to follow a channel in much  the same way that they would follow a mastodon account or a plaramo account or something similar.  So we're trying to hit all sort of boxes there of how you can keep up with somebody's content.  The other thing that I've been doing some work on recently is more front end stuff, but  it's just making sure that we sort of point people towards adding new content where possible,  either by themselves, creating new channels or subscribing to things via RSS or via the Fediverse.  So really pushing people towards that more,  really pushing people towards that more sort of  you know, creation element. We want people to create.  So that's with the basics in place. This was the development work we did over the past sort of year  or so. It's been a wild ride. There's been a lot of content that's gone in, a lot of changes made.  There's still some changes to come. The most current release doesn't have some of the newer  tools that are around podcasting, such as dedicated podcast searching and sort of  wider accessibility of subscription tools.  But we're not finished. There are still items on the roadmap that we would like to complete  and still items that are not currently on the roadmap, which may need to be added in future  to really help us to get involved with podcasting more. Because what we found is this is a  market that we very much have enjoyed working in. And it's one that actually has proven quite  popular with people that you know, people see Funkwell as a podcasting platform now.  Even if you know, it was originally supposed to be music. This is how it's kind of evolved.  So what do we have to kind of consider next to take a look at the future?  To kind of consider next to take Funkwell to the next sort of level of  you know, being a proper sort of alternative to what's currently out there.  The first thing that strikes me as necessary is Funkwell currently allows you to import  RSS feeds from external podcasts. It currently allows you to follow podcasts on the Fediverse,  on Funkwell, and it currently allows you to publish your own. But what we don't have at the moment  is any way of finding external podcasts. You still have to leave Funkwell to go and find  the RSS feed that you're looking for. You still have to you know, go and see where  things are, go and find them on something like iTunes or feed or Spotify and grab the RSS feed  and bring it back to Funkwell. Which of course from a user experience point of view, it is not great.  It's basically meaning that Funkwell is not yet the one-stop-shop for podcasts that we might want  it to be. So one of the things that I would quite like to see you know, come in in future is a podcast  discovery for an external sore front. I have built myself a kind of proof of concept of how we might  do this using the iTunes API. But there are different things out there such as feed and others  that we might want to consider looking at. The other thing is an improved sort of publication  workflow. At the moment, the publication workflow, it works, things go in, you get a podcast out of  it, it generates an RSS feed for you. But we have had people raise issues with it specifically around  how do I edit metadata during that upload process. The problem I think is because the way we designed  the front end, it was more of a, it was more in line with how we'd worked with music previously,  which is to say upload many files which have been previously tagged and just kind of let them be.  Whereas of course if you're doing an upload of podcasts, you want to basically upload an episode,  title it, tag it, put some artwork with it, give it a license, do all of that stuff,  and then move on to the next one. Or if you know you're going to be uploading multiple episodes of  a series, you might want to have a tool say that you can put them all in a series and say number  them automatically. At the moment, we don't have that. If you upload multiple things, a pencil  icon appears next to each one and you can click through them and edit them all, but it's not very  obvious how you do that. So that's been raised as something that needs to be addressed. We've had  some designs submitted for how we might go about doing that, which looks to be a lot better.  The other one is something I'm going to come onto in the second part of this, and that is the  introduction of links to donation services. At the moment, hosting your podcast on Funkwale  is great, but it's the same as hosting it anywhere else. What we want to be pushing people  towards or encouraging is this idea of supporting people who create. The best way to do that in  our eyes is to promote the idea of donation services and promote the idea of helping to support  the podcast that you like. We don't want to be a payment handler, obviously, but we do want to  help make it a lot more visible when there is a service that you can actually put money towards.  The last one, it's been on the road map since channels were introduced. It's very, very complex.  As somebody who does not work on the back end, I don't really have the technological  knowledge to go into it, but there is this idea of channel claiming where if somebody  uploads some music to a channel and it's not their music, the person whose music it is should be able  to claim that channel and take control of it. As you can imagine, that's a very, very complex  thing to do, particularly over federation because you have all of the different implications of the  wider fediverse to take into account there. It's our biggest boon. It's also our biggest  challenge day-to-day is working with that federation.  But that moves me on to my next point, which is all about sort of decentralized podcasting.  This may seem like a strange concept to people who do podcasting because podcasts are  decentralized by design, really. I didn't know a lot about podcasts going into this. As I say,  it was very much a learning experience, but the more reading I did into podcasts as part of  the research that we did for this, the more fascinated I became by how they work and how  they're set up. The thing that struck me was podcasts occupy this unique space of being  very, very disruptive low-tech, certainly audio podcasts, video podcasts as well, sort of disruptive  low-tech standards-compliant ways of communicating a lot of information.  Podcasts can be hosted anywhere. As long as they generate a valid feed, anybody can capture them  into a podcatcher and play the files linked using a relevant piece of software. That means that the  potential listener base is enormous, much more so than anything based on a single platform,  a centralized platform. This was one of the reasons that when we were designing the podcast  publications tools, we were so emphatic about being a part of that existing infrastructure,  making sure that we didn't try to lock people into our way of thinking, but instead follow  what podcasting was already doing because it already seemed pretty great. We had things like  RSS feeds, we had good encodings being used like MP3, which could be so widely used. It's  kind of ubiquitous at this point. That's a really important part of it. The reason that this came  to my attention was during some of the conversations we were having with podcasters, and specifically  when we were looking at Funkwell as a podcatcher, so something that consumes RSS feeds and plays  them back, somebody had said something about a specific podcast. I think it was called the  last podcast on the left. They said basically, it's a shame, I won't be able to play this  through Funkwell because they are going Spotify exclusive, and so they're not producing an RSS  feed anymore. This worries me slightly. It's a concerning trend away from what podcasts  stand for, from my understanding of what podcasts stand for. Because when you go exclusive to  something like Spotify, you have the introduction of DRM and you're creating a walled garden  around content. And certainly for content that used to be free and open, so it used to follow  the same rules as everything else, for it to suddenly go into a platform specific publication  is a big break. There are a couple of reasons for this, but the primary one is let's say that  with podcasting, the only limitation for a user is that they have a machine that has software that  is capable of listening to that podcast. It's capable of reading the feed and playing back the  audio. That's your limitation. If you put it onto something like Spotify, you actually divide this  into four, four different experiences. The first two are users who live in a country that have  access to Spotify. And those people will have two experiences. One, they will either listen to an  ad supported version of the show. And the second one is that they pay for a subscription to the  actual podcast, sorry, to the actual platform. Then you have people who go into other, who live  in other countries, which don't have Spotify served up to them. And those people have more  experiences. One is that they have to pay for a VPN and basically access Spotify externally using  the ads. And then again, access externally using a subscription. And then there's that lost fifth  one, which is they don't have the money for any of this. So they can't listen. So we fractured  the user base by centralizing the content into a certain place. And the problem with something  like Spotify is at that point, when you've done that and you've taken that sort of, you've taken  that decentralized nature away, what you have left is not a podcast, it's essentially corporate radio.  And like I say, for something that started off as a podcast, there's something that started off  freely available. Having it move in that way is somewhat concerning. But at the same time,  we have to look at why does that happen? And generally the answer is podcasting is expensive.  Everything that takes up people's time is expensive. And podcasting from the little I have done of it  is very expensive. You've got to take the time to script and record and edit and work with  all of that audio and video, you've got to find a place to publish it, you've got to do all of the  promotion around it. And if you are looking to make money off of it, you have to search around for  sponsorships and add deals and things like that. So when a company like Spotify comes along and says  we'll take all of that complexity off of your hands, we'll give you a good portion of money  to pay your staff and to make sure you can make a living, it's very, very tempting. And you can  kind of understand why it happens. And one of the things that we kind of found was that the free  software community in general is not always the best equipped to deal with that kind of thing.  We can't make a counter offer to that. Our weapon here and what we can do about this is,  as I've said before, kind of try as much as possible to make it easy for people to make the  decision to continue listening outside of those platforms, make it easy for them to continue to  support their favorite podcast directly, which means lowering the barrier to entry for  payments, lowering the barrier of entry for sharing, for supporting, for getting things out there.  But it's an inherently sort of difficult thing to come up against and something that, you know,  we haven't found the answer for yet. It's something we've done discussions about,  how we might help podcasters support themselves, how we might help people support podcasters  and musicians as well as this stretches to all areas. But the answer is a difficult one.  It's not one that sort of, you know, comes very easily. Now, I've purposefully sort of left this,  I think I've got it exactly half an hour, that's good. I purposely didn't want this to go on for  too long. That's kind of the journey that we've had. The first thing is,  podcasting is fun. From a sort of user perspective, podcasts are wonderful to listen to.  Having a good place to put podcasts is great for, you know, people who make them. From a  software perspective, they're a bit of a nightmare, especially when they aren't what your  software was originally sort of set up to do. There's a lot of work goes into it. It's, I  think it's underestimated in general. But, you know, it's worth putting the effort in to get  something like that. Free software world, the open source software world, we still face some  significant challenges with assisting people with things like anything to do with finances  is something where we struggle. And it's because we don't have that much of a  monolithic approach. It's because we don't have that central financing. So it tends to be that,  you know, we need to focus more on improving the experience of working within a sort of direct  donation world and a direct sort of way of working. And yeah, this whole sort of  trend of existing podcasts being picked up by companies and, you know, things that used to be  so free and easily accessible, becoming walled off inside. I only know of Spotify doing it, but I  can imagine the same thing happening with Apple Music and Deezer and a lot of others, is kind of  a concerning move, which is diluting what was really quite a fantastic sort of idea. And it's a  shame that it happens to some of the ones that people find, you know, people connect with the  most strongly. I think two of the most popular podcasts that have been picked up are things like  Joe Rogan and The Last Podcast on the Left, which is, it's a shame because high profile things  being taken over has meaning and, you know, it will normalise it in my eyes at least. But with the  use of free software tools, with the use of, you know, these open standards, real podcasting will  never go away. It will always, you know, bubble up underneath. We will always see people continue  to, you know, to put things out. So yeah, it's not all hopeless. This wasn't what that talk was  about. It was more just about this is something I think is very important and something that,  you know, as a project, we're really striving to support. So I think that takes me to quite  now 35 minutes, which is exactly what I was aiming for. If anybody has any questions, I think that  the, I think that the number has been put into the chat. It's plus 495361 890286 8001.  And if you're using Event Phone, it's just 8001. I'll just have a look and see if anyone  asked any questions in here. Let's have a look. Yeah, how do I find, how can I find a  funquel instance for a podcast I'm planning that suits me, my needs and my content the best?  Yeah, so the link there is a good idea. The get started guide, we actually have a sort of a pod  picker, we call it, which is just something that sort of takes you through the summary of different  pods, which is what we have we referred to servers. People can write a summary of what sort of content  they want them there. The two biggest servers are open audio. And I think Tanuki tunes,  which is my server is quite sort of big and open. There are lots of servers out there. So,  if you find one where you think it would fit in here, then great. You know, usually just find  one that has open registrations and sign up. Or if you're feeling brave, install it for yourself.  It's a fairly easy install. There are some hosts that will host it for you. They're listed on the  funquel.audio website. So, if you just wanted somebody to set it up for you so that you could  host a podcast, then yes, you could sort of put it in there. Do you know the podcast index.org  projects? I don't personally. I will look it up after this. That looks interesting.  If there's a solution that is to be found that could work for podcasters, could it also be  applicable to indie musicians or are the two fields way too different in order to accommodate both?  I'll just finish this one. I think I've got a telephone person coming in.  So, if there's but I mean, yes and no. If we're talking about supporting financially, then  yes, in theory, we already have some of those. I mean, there are already donation platforms  which kind of work for a multitude of things. So, really, I think we should be trying to  sort of lean into things like Liberapay, Kofi, maybe Patreon, rather than sort of trying to solve  that problem within the publication software. Because those features already exist and because  that's already quite well established, having better interoperability between those tools  is probably the best way forward. You just want to take the complexity away from the person listening.  It'd be nice if they had something like, for example, you're listening to a song, you really  like it. So, maybe you preload a certain amount of credits to your account every time you sort of  play a song you really like. You can throw some credits that way. I don't know the complexity  of the actual implementation is beyond me a little bit, as I say, I'm just a front-end guy.  But I don't think there's that big a difference between them from that sort of perspective.  Yeah, the servers were open.audio is the main sort of flagship server.  My server is called tanookietunes.com. I'll put that link in. But there are lots of servers,  as I say, if you go to the actual funkwell.audio website, they're there.  Why should I, as a podcaster, decide against a centralized platform with lots of users for a  decentralized one with only a few users? How can we dramatically increase the visibility of my  project, now my product on Funkwell? It's a good question. The thing is with a centralized platform  is you may be on a platform with a lot of users, but that doesn't mean that you're actually going  to be seen by a lot of users. There is a lot of stuff on Spotify which never gets played.  That's just the fact of it. There are so many, there's so much content on there that you are just,  you know, you're just a grain of sand. Obviously, if you've got a sort of an established fan base  and you've got a lot of people already listening to you, then that doesn't affect you. But in that  case, it also wouldn't affect you if you were decentralized. Those same people would still  be listening. And in fact, you would be able to reach more people. Podcasts kind of allow for  word of mouth in a way that something centralized doesn't. It can be passed around a lot more,  sort of virally. As for Funkwell, I mean Funkwell's greatest strength is the Fediverse with this.  So the fact that the audio can be shared between people's servers and sort of streamed directly  from server to server, the fact that it can be followed on a multitude of different platforms,  is where the visibility would come from. It's that sort of viral sharing. But the fact that it also  works outside of Funkwell, it also works just using a traditional sort of podcatcher, also plays  into its favor. And that's where Spotify kind of falls apart. Yes, Spotify has a lot of users,  but you do kind of cut off an entire core audience, which is the concern.  Yeah, it's not a, there's no simple answer to this. It's kind of the way it goes. But  it's, I feel like the point made earlier in the chat, which was that if you centralize it and you  lock it behind a wall garden, it's no longer really a podcast. It kind of stands. It's not a  podcast technically anymore. It's something different. And that's not necessarily a bad thing,  but it is true. It's no longer what it was originally supposed to be. So, you know,  it is best, I think, to try and make use of, you know, tools that fit into the existing podcast  infrastructure. Okay, that looks like all of the questions. I don't think anybody's calling in.  Which is fine. So, with that being the case, if there's no more questions, thank you very  much for listening to me ramble about podcasts for 40 minutes. Obviously, if you'd like to  check the project out, it's just at funkwell.audio. But also go out and support your favorite  podcasters, whatever platform they're on. You know, God knows they'd appreciate it,  especially in these times. Thank you very much. I think that's where I'm going to call it quits.  I think we have a phone call. Okay.  Okay. Someone on the phone? Yeah. Hello. Hi. Hello.  Oh, wait, I'm live. I'm excusing for that one. I just want whether you're familiar with the website  called for Godify.com. You brought up earlier that there's like tons of audio that has never been  heard of that basically site. So it's like a song or a piece of material Spotify that has never  been heard of before. What was the name of the site again? Sorry. For Godify.com. Oh, no, I've  not heard of that. That's quite interesting. So it just plays stuff that doesn't get played much  on Spotify. Yeah. Literally so with you, like a random song or a piece of audio that has been  like distributed on Spotify but never heard before. I even heard some tracks from 2008 at nine.  That's great. I really like that idea. Yeah, that is a genuine concern. I used to use Google  Plus a lot because I'm that kind of person. And I was part of sort of publishing musicians club.  And I had people on there who published on Spotify and they never got listened to.  You know, it does take quite a lot for you to actually get picked up by Spotify's algorithms  and to be sort of prioritized. So it's not the best solution for podcasts. There's I think there's  a reason that only already popular podcasts are getting picked up for Spotify circulation.  But you know, that sort of project sounds really interesting because it'd be fascinating to see  what gets forgotten down the sort of cracks of the seat. So just speak.  It's also a big job thing to play the game of the algorithm and stuff. I think that's one of the  main reasons why I'm making music myself and so it's all mine personally. So that's why I'm  a big fan of music. Yeah. Yeah, it is. It is. Anyway, thanks a lot. I'm not affiliated with  the site of the site of all the three rooms and decided to serve that. Thanks. Yeah. No,  thank you very much. That's really interesting to your own. Thank you. Bye.  Okay. I thought we don't have any more calls  going once going twice.  Okay. Okay. No more calls. Okay. Thank you again for coming to watch. And I hope you have a great  rest of your conference. Looks like it's going to be a lot of fun.
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