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              Games with interesting gameplay
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                     Most of the games here are basically visual novels. Some of them try to introduce some gameplay elements, like walking around on a map, grinding for stats, moving between different locations etc.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     Personally I find the above mostly annoying and would rather just follow a (branching) story where you make clear choices. In the end, I play such games for the combination of story and images, as well as the possibility to have some influence on the story, which is the reason to go for a game rather than a story, comic or movie.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     But games which have actually interesting gameplay are very few. A few noteworthy ones:
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     - Bright Sun's Card Adventure
                     <br/>
                     <a class="link link--external" href="https://f95zone.com/threads/bright-suns-card-adventure-v0-2-bright-sun-studios.18634/" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">
                      https://f95zone.com/threads/bright-suns-card-adventure-v0-2-bright-sun-studios.18634/
                     </a>
                     <br/>
                     Which has a card game which is very fun to play, but also intertwined with the storyline. The story and visuals are pretty hot too!
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     - The Last Sovereign
                     <br/>
                     <a class="link link--external" href="https://f95zone.com/threads/the-last-sovereign-v0-38-2-sierra-lee.616/" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">
                      https://f95zone.com/threads/the-last-sovereign-v0-38-2-sierra-lee.616/
                     </a>
                     <br/>
                     Which has a great story as well as fun to play RPG combat. Unfortunately there are no images / scenes so the game is not that fappable. Still very much worthwhile though.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     Probably there are more examples.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     But what I do find is that even if the gameplay is actually very good, it still somewhat distracts from the main purpose of the game.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     Any thoughts on this matter?
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                     I feel like the title and first paragraph are kind of disconnected from the rest of the post. So, most games posted here are actual visual novels, that's true, and then what we call 'sandbox' is basically a "unlock x storyline/scene whenever and if you want to". My own biased opinion is that these games cater to a different audience, I've seen a lot of people asking for more sandbox games because they find "clicking aimlessly" boring (here comes the bias) and I believe that's due to some kind of attention deficit, there is a case to be made about preference in how the story is told, but if you just click furiously until you get to the porn often missing important context for choices (not to mention the fucking story) it's not really the game's fault that you find it boring, is it?
                     <br/>
                     So on that first part I completely agree with you, as I said it could come down to preference, but confusing grinding with affecting the story is kinda dumb.
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                        Personally I find the above mostly annoying and would rather just follow a (branching) story where you make clear choices. In the end, I play such games for the combination of story and images, as well as the possibility to have some influence on the story, which is the reason to go for a game rather than a story, comic or movie.
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                     I also agree with this, although there is a bit more room for taste. For example, I can't play through kinetic novels, I feel like it could be resumed in a comic, book, or movie, but I wouldn't it strange if someone told me they liked them.
                     <br/>
                     As for the gameplay part, I thoroughly enjoy having impacting choices (was making a more in depth post about it but my pc shut down and I lost what I had written down), even if that means having 80 branches and I only end up doing one playthrough sticking to one route, downside to that is development time, love and submission or the fate of irnia are good example for this you have fixed events like (sister getting shot / getting named hand of the queen respectively) that constitute the main story but you have a lot of freedom on the adult side of the game, and therefore it takes longer to update every storyline, I'm sure non incest loving folks are restless with tfoi based on how it prioritizes majority of fan votes.
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                        But what I do find is that even if the gameplay is actually very good, it still somewhat distracts from the main purpose of the game.
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                     This is a very interesting one and there's one title I wanted to tie to this and the paragraph above. General practitioner. Idk if you've played it but it's basically one of those grind games that's actually a VN with a fixed story-line and a few choices (currently) on who to pursue, also some actions have consequences, but nothing really major.
                     <br/>
                     Now what I did enjoy about it was the inspection system or whatever it's called. Let me start by saying that I know jack shit about medicine and I hate going to the doctor, but I actually enjoyed the mechanic of learning some information (I wouldn't really care if it was accurate either) and practically applying it to progress in the game, like dark souls expects you to have good reflexes and unlimited patience, this game expected you to use reading comprehension and common sense. While I couldn't expect (or even want) to be a doctor after playing it and only remember about 50% of what it taught, I still remember it as a pleasurable experience.
                     <br/>
                     Now, connecting it to the quote above, the dev himself calls the game an
                     <u>
                      adult
                     </u>
                     game because it treats adult topics, not necessarily because of the porn, in fact, the porn (renders and scenes) is sub-par to other strictly erotic games here, and yet for me it ranks higher as a game in general. And the other content, not only carries the game to be playable, but it also occludes the erotic content
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     That's why I have some reservations when I see devs here going for more AAA approaches to games, just to give an example from here, Hoerizon, who I think is making a fanfuckingtastic job, was pushing for open world and gunplay, but just thinking about it, if that's the non-erotic content that's presented, why not play something like GTA or skyrim with porn mods and or then watch some higher quality porn? It's completely possible that I'm missing the big picture of what they're trying to achieve, but playing games like viking daughter (also pretty good) and looking at the porn scenes, it just makes me wonder if it's worth to put that much effort into it for it to look like honey select, sure in this case you're rendering yourself but does that really make a difference?
                     <br/>
                     The best case scenario would be something like
                     <a class="link link--external" href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qWzem-b8vhE" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">
                      wild life
                     </a>
                     (
                     <a class="link link--external" href="https://f95zone.com/threads/wild-life-build-09-21-2018-adeptus-steve.3810/" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">
                      game link
                     </a>
                     ) where (as much as you can judge from a
                     <i>
                      patreon trailer)
                     </i>
                     the gameplay aspects seem more passable, while it's not why you play a porn game for, it's still better than an rpg turn based combat system for my own taste, and they are also working towards a more "appetizing"
                     <a class="link link--external" href="https://twitter.com/i/status/1054291809470427137" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">
                      porn system
                     </a>
                     . Don't get me wrong, if I sit down to play an adult game I still wouldn't appreciate grinding (although I don't mind slow pacing) but if you're rewarded with something like that it does make the other gameplay more passable when you're not really interested in it.
                     <br/>
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                     All in all, sorry for my ranting hope it makes sense
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                        I feel like the title and first paragraph are kind of disconnected from the rest of the post.
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                     What I'm trying to say and explore is, all in the context of games you'll find here:
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     - What makes a "game" a game as opposed to a kinetic novel?
                     <br/>
                     - Which approaches work and which don't?
                     <br/>
                     - Can gameplay elements be over-the-top and actually detract from the purpose (let's call it porn, although that's not what I mean, as I'm not into this just for the visuals)
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                        As for the gameplay part, I thoroughly enjoy having impacting choices
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                     I fully agree, that's also what I prefer, but does that make it a "game"?
                     <br/>
                     Also, in the majority of games, most choices are fairly shallow and short-term (e.g. deciding if you see a certain scene or not) but don't have an impact on the outcome of the game.
                     <br/>
                     Notable exception: GGGB, where you have a lot of freedom to pursue a path which you find interesting.
                     <br/>
                     But the majority is much more linear.
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                        General practitioner.
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                     Good example, I missed that one!
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                        That's why I have some reservations when I see devs here going for more AAA approaches to games
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                     Sure I tried Fallout with adult mods (Skyrim and GTA not so much) but to be honest it gets boring, because the gameplay itself doesn't support it. What you end up with is a naked woman running around with a gun. Although it's interesting for a short while, it soon becomes boring and ends up being bothersome because it detracts me from the main purpose: shooting bad guys while following an interesting storyline.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     The Sims is a bit more interesting because you can create your own characters and create your own storyline for then. Still, it's a bit lacking.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     The porn / indie examples you give all kind of miss the mark to be a great AAA non-porn game and in the process lose the ability to be a good porn game as well, by means of bad visuals and too much to do besides porn.
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                  <div class="message-userContent lbContainer js-lbContainer" data-lb-caption-desc="forbidden101v · Oct 25, 2018 at 10:51 AM" data-lb-id="post-1216314">
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                        What I'm trying to say and explore is, all in the context of games you'll find here:
                        <br/>
                        <br/>
                        - What makes a "game" a game as opposed to a kinetic novel?
                        <br/>
                        - Which approaches work and which don't?
                        <br/>
                        - Can gameplay elements be over-the-top and actually detract from the purpose (let's call it porn, although that's not what I mean, as I'm not into this just for the visuals)
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                        I fully agree, that's also what I prefer, but does that make it a "game"?
                        <br/>
                        Also, in the majority of games, most choices are fairly shallow and short-term (e.g. deciding if you see a certain scene or not) but don't have an impact on the outcome of the game.
                        <br/>
                        Notable exception: GGGB, where you have a lot of freedom to pursue a path which you find interesting.
                        <br/>
                        But the majority is much more linear.
                        <br/>
                        <br/>
                        <br/>
                        Good example, I missed that one!
                        <br/>
                        <br/>
                        <br/>
                        Sure I tried Fallout with adult mods (Skyrim and GTA not so much) but to be honest it gets boring, because the gameplay itself doesn't support it. What you end up with is a naked woman running around with a gun. Although it's interesting for a short while, it soon becomes boring and ends up being bothersome because it detracts me from the main purpose: shooting bad guys while following an interesting storyline.
                        <br/>
                        <br/>
                        The Sims is a bit more interesting because you can create your own characters and create your own storyline for then. Still, it's a bit lacking.
                        <br/>
                        <br/>
                        The porn / indie examples you give all kind of miss the mark to be a great AAA non-porn game and in the process lose the ability to be a good porn game as well, by means of bad visuals and too much to do besides porn.
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                     Finding a game that integrates porn and gameplay nicely is hard I find. Ignoring visual novels because thats as easy as it gets I think some sidescrollers like Dragons Bride and Goblin Walker do this perfectly in the sense they dont reward you when you lose though a game that exists where the mechanics are interesting and you can fap while playing? I mean I guess you could always remap the controls for said games above and do just that providing your concentration is good enough while jacking off otherwise I recommend something like Witch Trainer by Akabur or Champion of Lust by Knot Games where the gameplay isnt reaction based for the most part.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     Porn games are kinda just doomed to get second hand treatment more often than others which is why theres an endless supply of visual novels I'll never play because of bland subpar writing at best. I rather just look up the art cg than slog through a visual novel that doesn't have much going for it beyond "Oniichan daisuki!". It also doesn't help games in this genre are niche so theres less incentive to make them. Personally I don't think any porn game made today has the potential to be a AAA game as thats more about production values than how many people buy it which the average is some where between 50-60 million dollars. If anyone has even remotely a shot of making a AAA game it would have to be picked up by a publisher willing to take that risk which will never happen considering you cut out a huge chunk of your potential market.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     I think you should play games like sidescrollers, point and click stimulations, or shooters. I recommend avoiding visual novels and rpgm games if you're craving some unique and refreshing interactivity as that area is more filled with garbage than a landfill in terms of both story and game mechanics though the game mechanics bit is typically irrelevant in the case of a visual novel. Hope I didnt rant too long.
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                     There's few who really goes out of the VN/sandbox approach. Among them you can find
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                        Damsels and Dragons
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                       You are the leader of a bunch of women warriors exploring the world and fighting their way through the story. This while trying to keep them interested in the adventure. The combat system is not this great but works, and there's in fact few adult content. But it's definitively not a game you've already played.
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                        Long Live The Princess
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                       Here, you advance in the story by using a bit of grinding and finding secret about the girls. You've to wander, take attention to the dialog, and also take care of yourself. Not the average adult game you can find here.
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                        abandoned - a tale of forgotten lives
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                       A real time 3D kind of role playing game. No stats, a combat system that isn't good (but was finally almost never used). Both a sandbox game and a story. A good example of what a real time 3D adult game can be.
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                        The DeLuca family
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                       Definitively not a game you've played before. It's an all in one game served by an amazing writing. You advance in the mafia by grinding mission, what is in fact less annoying that it sound. You advance with the girls by wandering in the game world and interacting with them, what lead to mini-quests. And finally you advance in the story with the help of an interactive visual novel system that can be compared to interactive cut scenes.
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                  <div class="message-userContent lbContainer js-lbContainer" data-lb-caption-desc="215303j · Oct 25, 2018 at 10:37 PM" data-lb-id="post-1217592">
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                        Porn games are kinda just doomed to get second hand treatment more often than others which is why theres an endless supply of visual novels I'll never play because of bland subpar writing at best.
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                        It also doesn't help games in this genre are niche so theres less incentive to make them.
                        <br/>
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                        I think you should play games like sidescrollers, point and click stimulations, or shooters. I recommend avoiding visual novels and rpgm games if you're craving some unique and refreshing interactivity as that area is more filled with garbage than a landfill in terms of both story and game mechanics though the game mechanics bit is typically irrelevant in the case of a visual novel. Hope I didnt rant too long.
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                     The ranting is ok
                     <img alt=";)" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite668" data-shortname=";)" src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" title="Wink    ;)"/>
                     although I more or less agree with your reasoning I don't agree with your conclusion. I think that there are actually quite a few VN's here on this site with a quite decent story as well as good visuals. Of course there is also garbage. But sidescrollers and shooters don't do it for me, for the reasons you mentioned.
                     <img alt=";)" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite668" data-shortname=";)" src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" title="Wink    ;)"/>
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                        anne O'nymous said:
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                        There's few who really goes out of the VN/sandbox approach.
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                     Regarding Long Live The Princess I fully agree with you. Great game with an interesting and different mechanic which helps the story rather than distracts from it.
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                     The DeLuca family I didn't play yet. I hear it's great, but I was planning on waiting a few more updates.
                     <br/>
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                     Regarding the other two (I didn't play those), you say yourself that the combat system isn't that good, which is the point of this thread. For sure you can make a game with (e.g.) a combat system, but if it's not so great, then most likely players will get annoyed by this mechanic rather than enjoy it.
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                     And again, what's the point?
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                  <div class="message-userContent lbContainer js-lbContainer" data-lb-caption-desc="Porcus Dev · Oct 25, 2018 at 11:05 PM" data-lb-id="post-1217655">
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                        There's few who really goes out of the VN/sandbox approach. Among them you can find
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                          <a class="link link--external" href="https://f95zone.com/threads/7387/" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">
                           Damsels and Dragons
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                          ;
                          <br/>
                          You are the leader of a bunch of women warriors exploring the world and fighting their way through the story. This while trying to keep them interested in the adventure. The combat system is not this great but works, and there's in fact few adult content. But it's definitively not a game you've already played.
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                          <a class="link link--external" href="https://f95zone.com/threads/5259/" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">
                           Long Live The Princess
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                          ;
                          <br/>
                          Here, you advance in the story by using a bit of grinding and finding secret about the girls. You've to wander, take attention to the dialog, and also take care of yourself. Not the average adult game you can find here.
                         </li>
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                          <a class="link link--external" href="https://f95zone.com/threads/187/" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">
                           abandoned - a tale of forgotten lives
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                          ;
                          <br/>
                          A real time 3D kind of role playing game. No stats, a combat system that isn't good (but was finally almost never used). Both a sandbox game and a story. A good example of what a real time 3D adult game can be.
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                          <a class="link link--external" href="https://f95zone.com/threads/15459/" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">
                           The DeLuca family
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                          .
                          <br/>
                          Definitively not a game you've played before. It's an all in one game served by an amazing writing. You advance in the mafia by grinding mission, what is in fact less annoying that it sound. You advance with the girls by wandering in the game world and interacting with them, what lead to mini-quests. And finally you advance in the story with the help of an interactive visual novel system that can be compared to interactive cut scenes.
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                        There's more, but I can't remember their names right now.
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                     Abandoned, a tale of forgotten lives... great game!! :heartcoveredeyes:
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                     I have to catch up with the latest versions, but I love the story and the freedom the game gives to use the "gadgets" you find :evilsmile:x'D
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                     You can skip combats or minigames if you think that there are difficult.
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                    <time class="u-dt" data-date-string="Oct 26, 2018" data-time="1540487165" data-time-string="1:06 AM" datetime="2018-10-26T01:06:05+0800" dir="auto" title="Oct 26, 2018 at 1:06 AM">
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                     My sense is that the big problem here is the ren'py engine itself.  Not to say, of course, that you can't make a game with interesting gameplay in ren'py (Summertime Saga, Four Elements Trainer, Lust and Power, and perhaps SuperPowered do a decent job of this, for example), but rather it's just a long walk from what ren'py is designed to do.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     Games in other engines show pretty clearly that there's no inherent contradiction between decent gameplay and good porn.  Take 'The Company,' for example.  That's a fairly deep resource management game as well as trainer game all made in twine (I'm pretty sure it's twine, anyway.  Definitely presented in HTML regardless) that has some excellent porn.  Whatever you might think of the grind or Swegabe's take on sexytimes, the Legend of Queen Opala series has some solid gameplay in it and a metrick fuckton of porn.  See also Roundscape, a few cute minigames in Man of the House, Free Cities with pregmod, and most definitely Hunie Pop (yes it might be softcore, but it's still a very solid porn game in my book).
                     <br/>
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                     Personally, I'm pretty damn tired of ren'py.  At this point, I think the only games in ren'py I'm even following anymore are Summertime Saga (which is, what, every three months or so now?), whatever Akabur releases every 6 months or so, and occasionally I dip my toe into Lust and Power.  Otherwise, I can't really say I give a shit about the ren'py game scene anymore and would absolutely rather play something that features more compelling gameplay to go along with the porn.
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