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   [Suggestion] Adult Patreon | F95zone
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                     With patreon going down the route they are going. I was thinking of researching into and possibly developing a site for adult games and do something similar to Patreon. Most of the alternatives I have found to Patreon that allow adult games, are like kickstarter.
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                     I was mainly thinking of hosting it in a country where some, if not most of the laws the are affecting Patreon wont work.
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                     I would like to have a serious discussion on this and see what people think.
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                     Dunno if it's actually good and I don't care. But it would be funny if you end up flocking there.
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                     I agree. It can be linked here, too. Rules could be "cannot hide content behind paywall" and "site is to support your development".
                     <br/>
                     <a class="username" data-user-id="88405" data-username="@baneini" data-xf-init="member-tooltip" href="https://f95zone.to/members/88405/">
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                     I wouldn't allow loli/shota content if I ran the site.. incest/bestiality/monster/teenagers can skirt by most laws but NOT loli. I would encourage "non-consensual" content kept to a minimum? Just bare-bones rules that make sense?
                     <br/>
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                     My concerns...
                     <br/>
                     - The biggest one is how do you handle financial transactions so they are guaranteed as secure?
                     <br/>
                     - A basic framework for posting content like a "porn-focused" patreon alternative that has rules which financial companies, hosters, and servers can agree on.
                     <br/>
                     - What about providing a "first come, first served" server space for secure uploads?
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     So the first and second points guarantee site stability and its future.
                     <br/>
                     The third is an awesome bonus that can lure some to come to the site now.
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                     And as money comes in and the cut is taken, that can in turn lead to more server space and more options for financial transactions.
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                        - The biggest one is how do you handle financial transactions so they are guaranteed as secure?
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                         Click to expand...
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                     What about some sort of online escrow service.  They can only accept the funds once the patrons release them.
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                        I agree. It can be linked here, too. Rules could be "cannot hide content behind paywall" and "site is to support your development".
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                     Premium "things" should be okay, right?  Special renders, calendars, etc?
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                        baneini said:
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                        First create a payment provider thats fine with beastiality/rape/loli so that your site can actually function.
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                     It would be hard to get anything to agree with loli. Its considered ********** outside of Japan. Rape is going to be kinda hard as well.
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                        I agree. It can be linked here, too. Rules could be "cannot hide content behind paywall" and "site is to support your development".
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                        <a class="username" data-user-id="88405" data-username="@baneini" data-xf-init="member-tooltip" href="https://f95zone.to/members/88405/">
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                        I wouldn't allow loli/shota content if I ran the site.. incest/bestiality/monster/teenagers can skirt by most laws but NOT loli. I would encourage "non-consensual" content kept to a minimum? Just bare-bones rules that make sense?
                        <br/>
                        <br/>
                        My concerns...
                        <br/>
                        - The biggest one is how do you handle financial transactions so they are guaranteed as secure?
                        <br/>
                        - A basic framework for posting content like a "porn-focused" patreon alternative that has rules which financial companies, hosters, and servers can agree on.
                        <br/>
                        - What about providing a "first come, first served" server space for secure uploads?
                        <br/>
                        <br/>
                        So the first and second points guarantee site stability and its future.
                        <br/>
                        The third is an awesome bonus that can lure some to come to the site now.
                        <br/>
                        And as money comes in and the cut is taken, that can in turn lead to more server space and more options for financial transactions.
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                     Transactions part is going to be the hard part. The framework for posting can be easily done, its basically a blog in ways. As far as file serving goes, I would probably look into AWS or something. Going to hard to monitor it though, since people will want to hide content.
                     <br/>
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                        Shenaniganzz said:
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                        What about some sort of online escrow service.  They can only accept the funds once the patrons release them.
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                     That could work but I dont trust most of them.
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                    Thanks
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                        I wouldn't allow loli/shota content if I ran the site.. incest/bestiality/monster/teenagers can skirt by most laws but NOT loli. I would encourage "non-consensual" content kept to a minimum? Just bare-bones rules that make sense?
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                     HAHAHAHAHA! Oh god, you're the worst moderator by far. So it's ok to censor something YOU don't like for some arbitrary reason. Guess what, lolicon and straight shota are legal in most parts of US and even the world. I really hope you don't get to manage any fundraising site with arbitrary rules like that that you pull out of your easily hurt sensibility. You know what I would ban? NTR, because I fucking hate the damn thing and is a cancer to this "scene" and western civilization as a whole. But guess what, I wouldn't, because I'm not an idiot. I will shame that kind of content to dead, but I will never outright ban it just because I don't like it. This whole idea seems to be doomed from the beginning. Keep the good work.
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                        I wouldn't allow loli/shota content if I ran the site.. incest/bestiality/monster/teenagers can skirt by most laws but NOT loli. I would encourage "non-consensual" content kept to a minimum? Just bare-bones rules that make sense?
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                     You either allow everything (if it's 3D / 2D of course, not real images) or not doing it at all.
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                     As for "new patreon", the only thing that comes to my mind is something hosted in "porn-law-friendly domain" with bitcoin'ish transactions. But I can't picture it becoming even relatively popular, so that most devs / patrons could move there. It will take some kind of advertising campaign, not to mention that cash related difficulties would still shoo away half of potential users.
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                        HAHAHAHAHA! Oh god, you're the worst moderator by far. So it's ok to censor something YOU don't like for some arbitrary reason. Guess what, lolicon and straight shota are legal in most parts of US and even the world. I really hope you don't get to manage any fundraising site with arbitrary rules like that that you pull out of your easily hurt sensibility. You know what I would ban? NTR, because I fucking hate the damn thing and is a cancer to this "scene" and western civilization as a whole. But guess what, I wouldn't, because I'm not an idiot. I will shame that kind of content to dead, but I will never outright ban it just because I don't like it. This whole idea seems to be doomed from the beginning. Keep the good work.
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                     So first things first, this is not about our positions here or F95zone in general. Secondly, this a suggestion thread and not a debate one. You are fine to have your own opinions but not here.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     Now to touch on the subject. If you dont like one of the staff members, you have three options. You can PM F95 or Sam about a staff member, you can ignore them or its easy enough for you to not visit F95zone.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     Now back to being on subject. We are debating genres here or anything related to F95zone. This is here to discuss something of a site that would be safe zone for adult content creators.
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                        Ryahn said:
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                        So first things first, this is not about our positions here or F95zone in general. Secondly, this a suggestion thread and not a debate one. You are fine to have your own opinions but not here.
                        <br/>
                        <br/>
                        Now to touch on the subject. If you dont like one of the staff members, you have three options. You can PM F95 or Sam about a staff member, you can ignore them or its easy enough for you to not visit F95zone.
                        <br/>
                        <br/>
                        Now back to being on subject. We are debating genres here or anything related to F95zone. This is here to discuss something of a site that would be safe zone for adult content creators.
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                     Alright, want a good suggestion? Don't let that guy close to anything you come up with, if you actually do, after all, not allowing loli and the like is his opinion too. I already suggested hatreon, and getting porn games with alt-right people sounds as hilarious as it can get. There's Sam Hyde there too. And I'm not joking about that suggestion, the site already exist and it's pretty much seems like a free place so far. It's what I'd call an "adult patreon", and sounds safe enough to content creator unless you poke the alt-right the bad way.
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                     Well first, if any dev moves to Hatreon, my $ stop. That is a site that cashes in on alt-right, white supremacy, nazi, etc.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     If I were a dev (I will admit that I have not yet looked at Patreon Terms of Service yet), I would be worried, no matter what my content is about, of this paragraph in their legal subsection:
                     <br/>
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                      <b>
                       By posting content to Hatreon
                       <u>
                        you grant us a royalty-free, perpetual, irrevocable, non-exclusive, sublicensable, worldwide license to use, reproduce, distribute, perform, publicly display or prepare derivative works of your content.
                       </u>
                       The purpose of this license is to allow us to operate Hatreon, promote Hatreon and promote your content on Hatreon. We are not trying to steal your content or use it in an exploitative way.
                      </b>
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                     (bold, underlining and italics by me)
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                     The line about not trying to steal your content says they are not "trying" but have the right to if they wish....
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     And so long as you don't go to a payment provider stating "Hi, I'm Ryhan and I am running an adult game site and want to process payments, oh and it has tons of beastiality/rape/loli. That is why the fringe stuff is hidden/toned down, etc.
                     <br/>
                     Most processors are over the "Adult" stigma from the early days (yes I remember when there was no internet... not well, but...). Hell, they already probably are doing processing for porn studios, etc. It is way lucrative for them. Sex sells is not just a marketing slogan LOL. Look at what people on Patreon are paying for incremental updates to games.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     Having been in IT, web hosting, etc. for awhile (no age jokes!), the back end stuff and the payment API/Code etc. is the work. Then there is finding a hosting location. Out of the US is not good enough. You have to look at treaties and who shares info with whom. Even though your doing nothing illegal, you can be harassed, served and go broke just defending yourself. Not saying is would not work, because it is doable.. i.e. Patreon... but there are many dimensions.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     Sorry for the ramble... the last cup of coffee was a goooood one :closedtongue:
                     <br/>
                     E=MC2... Energy=My Coffee2
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                     You say that as if Patreon didn't do that with Tencent already. You want a place where you're mostly free to do as you please? You'll have to deal with alt-right, because liberals and leftists seems to have a problem with free speech, wanting to censor lolicon and, right now, incest. Nobody cares about your $, but a place to develop and get revenue without a risk of them shutting you down for liking lolicon or incest.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     A lawyer can be helpful, that line seems pretty good as a warning, you can patent and copy-right your product if you're afraid of someone stealing it. That line means Hatreon can't use your product for something other than promoting your product in something related to hatreon.
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                  <div class="message-userContent lbContainer js-lbContainer" data-lb-caption-desc="xןʞ · Oct 20, 2017 at 12:34 PM" data-lb-id="post-258869">
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                     You've got the issue of payments really if you host all your server and payment receiving out of a non US country though, becasue unless you can somehow skirt it with paypal(which is iffy due to paypal's strict morality) a ton of US banks/credit cards that don't go through paypal middle man are gonna flat out deny and mark as fraud payments sent to random european country for "Mom boning game update .06"(or whatever other made up name you can think of at the moment.)
                     <br/>
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                     Also it could always be a conflict of interest from the users here and that site to begin with, people here(and across the web) will know that it is a start up by a bunch of pirates at heart and they'll just say "fuck donating I could just get it for free either way from the same guys' other site")while there are some of us who are actual patrons of various devs, you guys know good and well the vast majority of people here are just leeches who have no intention of ever donating to anyone, so I fear honestly you'd eventually have to choose one site or the other if you actually wanted said adult patreon to become profitable.
                     <br/>
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                     The whole loli/shota thing is iffy too really, just because what is and isn't really full on shota or loli, like obvious toddlercon and stuff where the kid is obviously super pre-pubescent(your Incestral Awakenings and such)but then you've got stuff like Urban Demons where the kid is just as much of a shota except with a cudgel for a dick(maybe that is the barrier for entry, your midget shota kids better be packing serious heat!) and stuff like a lot of the random incest games where the character is obviously a loli but there is the warning of "omg over 18!! *wink wink wink*" Personally I don't have any issue with any of it as long as it is drawn or 3D or whatever and not real pictures or whatever, because in the end they aren't real people so wahtever floats person's boat I guess.
                     <br/>
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                     But yeah I could see you guys getting it set up if you are able to run this site and deal with all the DMCA bullshit you surely have to put up with, but you're gonna have to jump through a ton of hoops to get it off the ground, and not to mention getting publicity for it, and getting big name devs to sign on which probably won't happen with a lot of them.
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                     In the end there is always a good chance it might not even be worth all the work put into such a venture.
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                     So, based on the sheer number of posts and daily traffic on F-95, and the fact that it is still standing, tells me that F-95 is on pretty solid footing currently.  As to what happens in the background, I have no idea but from a user standpoint, this site has been there pretty much every time I log on to the internet (except during the 2 minute backup/update thing that happens once a day).  So I think you guys have the 'hardware end' covered.
                     <br/>
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                     The issue is going to be how to collect and disperse payments/donations.  One of the issues that is brought up regularly about the Paypal/Patreon relationship is Paypal's usage policies.  And the amount of info that Paypal would like to have about their customers.  A major reason I don't donate to Adult games on Patreon now is because I want NO paper trail connecting me to said games, just in case such data is collected by some means...
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                     Yes there is bitcoin I guess, but that seems like an extra unnecessary step if another way can be found.  Then there's the question of setting up an 'accounting division' of your hosting enterprise, that collects the monies and dispurses it to the developers.  That part of the equation is the one that would be most challenging for you guys.
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                     So yeah, the donation/payment mechanism is the more challenging problem, and the one that needs to be worked out first.
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                  <div class="message-userContent lbContainer js-lbContainer" data-lb-caption-desc="xןʞ · Oct 20, 2017 at 12:38 PM" data-lb-id="post-258876">
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                        Well first, if any dev moves to Hatreon, my $ stop. That is a site that cashes in on alt-right, white supremacy, nazi, etc.
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                     Yeah basically I'd hope no self respecting dev would go to hatreon jsut because it is essentially a place for nazi fundraising, have some dignity and find another way to get funds.
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                     And like Sam said in another topic it is only a matter of time before all the credit card companys and other payment methods catch wind of the site and refuse to process payments for anything on that site, so they'd be dumb to set up shop there anyway.
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                     You've explained my concerns in detail..
                     <br/>
                     When you are trying to establish a site where currency is exchanged internationally between different individuals, you are bound by various laws. And if third parties that provide banking and financial transactions will work with you, they always put conditions on it.. because it's money!
                     <br/>
                     That's why I'd stay away from certain content like loli. Case in point.. Japan is reforming the way they do business with their porn industry because it is strong and has caught the attention of large banks and investors.
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                      Those investors do not want anything to do with loli/shota and some other fringe content because of legal concerns
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                     . This is likely the very reason Patreon has decided to do what they did- to protect their cash flow from the porn content they host, not the other way around. This paragraph is exactly the reason why we discourage loli content. Personally, I'm not dead set against it but I strongly discourage it because I understand how things work.
                     <br/>
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                     I would discourage hatreon being used. The word "hate" is in it. They push white supremacy and male domination. I am personally very very against that because when they're not trying to recruit me, they are busy trying to tear down people I love. One ex of mine is half black, another is half asian, several are part native american, many family members are part native and a few are part black and/or part hispanic. I love them all the same and they deserve all the love they can get. But the alt-right.. they don't and they can't see the colors of the world so they don't deserve a part in it. Again, this is my opinion.
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                        Yeah basically I'd hope no self respecting dev would go to hatreon jsut because it is essentially a place for nazi fundraising, have some dignity and find another way to get funds.
                        <br/>
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                        And like Sam said in another topic it is only a matter of time before all the credit card companys and other payment methods catch wind of the site and refuse to process payments for anything on that site, so they'd be dumb to set up shop there anyway.
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                     You are seriously asking dignity of people that makes games about bestiality and stuff like that? So it's ok to like bestiality but is somehow wrong to like lolicon or nazis now. Amazing.
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                        Japan is reforming the way they do business with their porn industry because it is strong and has caught the attention of large banks and investors
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                     And they failed already and instead decided to focus on actual **********, which worked wonderfully. A big part of Japan's media would collapse if you take out lolicon alone, because that's a big part of it, you like it or not, same with investors. Those very same investors wouldn't like to have anything to do with porn in the first place, so trying to appeal to them it's pretty stupid. If they are ok with fictional porn they might as well be ok with lolicon. But hey, you say you "understand how thing work", but doesn't really seems like it.
                     <br/>
                     As for hatreon, I seriously can't believe that you think it's bad it has the word "hate". Patreon is investigating projects because they deal with the word "incest". It's the same principle, which is why I insist this project is doomed to be just as stupid as patreon right now, you are all being worst than the alt-right right now. You like it or not, Hatreon is your best option now. Or better yet, stop being a hack and don't have a patreon at all.
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                        right now, you are all being worst than the alt-right right now.
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                     I am actually a huge fan of free speech, and with that comes free ignore/disagree.... but being compared to that is beyond offensive... since my better half is full on Asian makes us a target (and have been).
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                     I believe everyone has the right to their opinion, no matter how hateful, so I respect yours.
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                     Please respect mine and go piss on a very high voltage electric fence.
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                  <div class="message-userContent lbContainer js-lbContainer" data-lb-caption-desc="anne O'nymous · Oct 20, 2017 at 9:57 PM" data-lb-id="post-259341">
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                        Ryahn said:
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                        Transactions part is going to be the hard part.
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                     Not only the hardest part, but also the decisive one.
                     <br/>
                     The biggest problem with a site like this is that you need to be trusted by every parties. Both creators and supporters/patreons must trust you.
                     <br/>
                     A creator will not put his project on your site if there's possibility that each 100 supporters, you divert one for your own purpose. And a supporter will not give money if he can't be sure that the money will really go to the creator (minus the part for your fees).
                     <br/>
                     There's absolutely no way for both creators and supporters to know that there's really 1275 supporters and not in fact 1495, with 220 fooled because they give money, but you keep all of it for yourself. They both believe that the number is correct because they trust you.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     Mostly, this is achieved by having a big company like PayPal as partner. People will trust them to have done some research about your credibility. So you need to find a trusty partner whatever you use it for every transactions or not.
                     <br/>
                     By this I mean that you can have, by example, PayPal for the consensual adult content, and if the content reach their limits, you just say to the creator and his supporters than they must use another on of the possible options for the transactions.
                     <br/>
                     It's more or less the same thing than IRL, when you use money to pay your favorite revue, and use your credit card to pay your monthly shopping. There's a lot of options, and some are, or not, available, according to the content of the game.
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                        I would discourage hatreon being used. The word "hate" is in it.
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                     Personally I stopped at "free speech". When you feel the need to say that you do this/that because you support free speech, 99% of the time you mean, "my opinions are really really really very controversial, when not totally illegal, but I want to express them anyway". And obviously, what's behind these words is not porn, not even brutal loli rape porn, but hate, hate and more hate.
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                    Oct 20, 2017
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                    Ren'py:
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                     Track variables
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                     Updated
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                     Write a dynamic Ren'Py game
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                     It can't be done without a trusted team behind you, I'm afraid. Also, what stops the devs from creating their own websites and hosting their own membership sites instead of going to your alternative patreon? I believe it wouldn't be that hard to do. Many small dev do it already. Also, if you force them to not hide content behind paywalls, the big ones won't come. They're here to make money not to be your friend and give their content to the leechers.
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                  <div class="message-userContent lbContainer js-lbContainer" data-lb-caption-desc="starfox31114 · Oct 20, 2017 at 11:28 PM" data-lb-id="post-259510">
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                        I am actually a huge fan of free speech, and with that comes free ignore/disagree.... but being compared to that is beyond offensive... since my better half is full on Asian makes us a target (and have been).
                        <br/>
                        I believe everyone has the right to their opinion, no matter how hateful, so I respect yours.
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                        Please respect mine and go piss on a very high voltage electric fence.
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                     I'm sorry you got offended while doing the very same thing you seems to be against. Makes you think, don't it? Please reflect on that, after all, telling me to kill myself is a very alt-right thing. And no, I've never seen a case of asians being targeted by alt-right and most asian governments are center right too.
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                        And obviously, what's behind these words is not porn, not even brutal loli rape porn, but hate, hate and more hate.
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                     I still fail to see what's the problem with hate. As for Hatreon, it still includes porn. Other "progressive" sites have already failed you about it, so, as I said, if you actually want the freedom to do what you like, including porn, you sadly have to deal with hate, because as you're free to do what you like, everyone else should be free to hate too. Good luck with your hate free site with porn. Oh, wait, it doesn't exist.
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                        Also, what stops the devs from creating their own websites
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                     This have always been a thing. Patreon never was a necessity and it isn't one now either. There's no need for patreon. So basically, you either use hatreon or simply don't. Take a look at the tip jar here.
                     <a class="link link--external" href="http://wizardcraftgames.blogspot.com/" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">
                      Wizardcraft's Games
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                        [...] if you actually want the freedom to do what you like, including porn, you sadly have to deal with hate, because as you're free to do what you like, everyone else should be free to hate too.
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                     Pornography is legal in my country, as well as incest ; as long as both partners are consenting adults they can openly live together as a couple and have children, they just can't be married. Even bestiality isn't illegal by itself ; it'll be sanctioned as cruelty against animals, but in a game animals aren't real.
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                     The only thing I'm not sure about is rape. But according to the laws I read, as long as it stay fictional and depict it without trying to promote it, it should probably not be a problem.
                     <br/>
                     In the same time, hate speech (from homophobia to Holocaust denial, including a lot of variations), is illegal. More or less sanctioned depending of the subject, but illegal. We even have a law which can be seen as "against incitement to hatred", so even hate speechs not specifically covered by the law can be sanctioned.
                     <br/>
                     Still it's probably not the best country to host a porntreon, but here I was just answering your affirmation stating that you can't have legal porn without also having legal hate.
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                        Pornography is legal in my country, as well as incest ; as long as both partners are consenting adults they can openly live together as a couple and have children, they just can't be married. Even bestiality isn't illegal by itself ; it'll be sanctioned as cruelty against animals, but in a game animals aren't real.
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                        The only thing I'm not sure about is rape. But according to the laws I read, as long as it stay fictional and depict it without trying to promote it, it should probably not be a problem.
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                        In the same time, hate speech (from homophobia to Holocaust denial, including a lot of variations), is illegal. More or less sanctioned depending of the subject, but illegal. We even have a law which can be seen as "against incitement to hatred", so even hate speechs not specifically covered by the law can be sanctioned.
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                        Still it's probably not the best country to host a porntreon, but here I was just answering your affirmation stating that you can't have legal porn without also having legal hate.
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                     Where the fuck do you live? Germany? That's not the best example ever. Banning "hate speech" is honestly a threat against free speech as a whole. To keep it on topic, is like banning a particular fetish without any reason other than not liking it, morals are subjective so banning something because is morally wrong is stupid. Same with laws, laws vary from country to country, and even if they were all the same, they are pretty arbitrary too, I don't see why they should affect fictional settings, because fiction are usually just words and images of non-existing things. Same with hate speech.
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                     I know this thread is related to Patreon but please stop all discussions about Hate Speech, Free Speech, etc. This is not the intention of this thread.
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                  <div class="message-userContent lbContainer js-lbContainer" data-lb-caption-desc="starfox31114 · Oct 21, 2017 at 1:36 AM" data-lb-id="post-259890">
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                        I know this thread is related to Patreon but please stop all discussions about Hate Speech, Free Speech, etc. This is not the intention of this thread.
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                     It is really relevant because if you want to do a website like patreon it would be nice if you're clear in what their errors are. As of now and after the information in the other thread about how to avoid the ban hammer, everything is reduced to how much hypocrite patreon is and how devs have to hide what they do so they can keep doing it. That's pretty much a problem of freedom of speech, and that's just one of the problems with patreon and websites like it.
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                     If you want to make a website like it for porn games, banning games based on arbitrary rules like that will simply result in Patreon 2.0 + porn. It's an honest suggestion.
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                            Well first, if any dev moves to Hatreon, my $ stop. That is a site that cashes in on alt-right, white supremacy, nazi, etc.
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                            I would discourage hatreon being used. The word "hate" is in it. They push white supremacy and male domination.
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                         It's statements like these that make me worried that we won't any real progress in helping porn devs get a secure income to do their work. What hope do we have when we get a viable alternative crowd-funding site, with a very lax ToS, only to turn it down because of their supposed political leanings? I don't even know that they're Alt-right, just that they believe that hate speech should be protected because it does fall under free speech in the USA. That's what the "Hate" in Hatreon stands for, from what I gather. Their commitment to protecting EVERYONE'S speech, including and especially those with unpopular opinions. If we can't be mature enough to put our political opinions behind us to help support the creators we are willing to support, then all that's left for us is to develop a porn "patreon."
                         <br/>
                         <br/>
                         I'm not sure how viable that is given that sites like Offbeatr have closed in the past. That, and it's been done before with little success.
                         <a class="link link--external" href="https://pledgex.net/" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">
                          https://pledgex.net/
                         </a>
                         was supposed to be an adult alternative to patreon. All I get is a "problem loading page" message. I assume it's no longer available.
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                     I have no idea what sort of country could be used. I do have a link to something interesting, though.
                     <a class="link link--external" href="https://www.thrinacia.com/about" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">
                      https://www.thrinacia.com/about
                     </a>
                     <br/>
                     It seems like their services could help with opening your own crowd-funding site? Anyways, it seemed interesting to me.
                     <a class="link link--external" href="https://wiki.snowdrift.coop/market-research/other-crowdfunding" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">
                      Snowdrift Wiki - Other Crowdfunding / Fundraising Services
                     </a>
                     <br/>
                     This page has a list of other crowd-funding sites. I haven't looked at any of them so you guys will have to read up on them yourselves. It's a pretty decently sized list so maybe there's something in there for us. That's about all I got.
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                     I've been thinking... If the biggest issue is the transactions, adult patreon can start without such feature and allow devs to add PayPal "Donate" buttons (or any other payment system) instead. The one thing Patreon lacks the most is the adult content search and it can be easily implemented.
                     <br/>
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                     Adult Patreon should focus on easy to use/search games/artists interface first and think about transactions system later, think of it as beta test or something. In the end, if it doesn't acquire enough devs/patrons first there will be no need for transactions.
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                     I also draw the interface:
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                        robdelobe said:
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                        I have no idea what sort of country could be used.
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                     Was reading
                     <a class="link link--external" href="http://self.gutenberg.org/articles/eng/List_of_pornography_laws_by_country" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">
                      List of pornography laws by country | Project Gutenberg Self-Publishing - eBooks | Read eBooks online
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                     and some other pages today. Most of them talk only about movies, but you can assume that the same apply to games. And well, there isn't many possibilities. Finding a country where pornography can be distributed is not the sole problem since most of the time pornographic material can't goes against the laws related to sexual practices.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     At the end, the less worst option seem to be Spain. Incest is legal as well as BDSM. They have laws against bestiality, but it's legal to sale/distribute/own pornographic material depicting bestiality. They, obviously, have law against rape, but extreme pornography seem to be legal since it depict the act and not promote it. The second less worst is Denmark, but I haven't found if their law against incest interfere with pornography or not.
                     <br/>
                     Note that I haven't done research for each 50ish countries where pornography is legal, so I can have missed some. But mostly there always one point which prevent a country to be a good option ; when they permit one thing, they forbid another.
                     <br/>
                     This said, there a possible loophole. Porntreon (since someone reused my term) don't have the obligation to host the content. So, as long as the games themselves are hosted somewhere else, the only thing on Porntreon would be writing and static pictures. So, it's not anymore pornography strictly speaking, but art... whatever it's good or bad art. And here things are different, countries like Spain, France or Belgium, by example (there's more, but their name don't cross my over saturated mind), can probably let everything be hosted.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     Well, at least, I now know a lot about the legality, or not, of BDSM, incest and bestiality, as well as pornography, around the world
                     <img alt=":D" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite674" data-shortname=":D" src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" title="Big grin    :D"/>
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                        First create a payment provider thats fine with beastiality/rape/loli so that your site can actually function.
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                     Find out whoever supports DL site.
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                     Didn't everybody have the same idea the other day? Yep. If you want a way for people to pay without worrying about the view that the payment processors may have use bitcoin and other cryptos as payment. Every CC processor has a Morel's claws in there agreement. Even Japan is changing its laws on porn thanks to international pressure. Thy don't sell loli and other things in shops anymore cus it's banned now
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                    After years of working on Dreaming of Dana, Intimate Relations, Life With Mary, and Haily's Story with Ptolemy
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                     A way I could see a porntreon type site working would be if it was basically just an offsite front page for a dev's game.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     First a game dev would make a page on patreon but leave it basically blank as to what they are actually making or at least comply with patreons guidelines. Then creators could make a page on porntreon exactly like the one they used on patreon to promote their games. Their page on porntreon would have all the information about the game and would be somewhere they could post their free versions. Their porntreon page would have a link to their patreon page.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     The porntreon site would not actually collect any money it would basically just be their patreon front page but hosted off site. The creators porntreon page would have a link to their patreon page which is where all the money would be collected and distributed. So the money problem wouldn't be an issue for whoever was running porntreon, but they also wouldn't get any of that sweet milk. Instead to pay for the porntreon site and cover any costs (and this is my favorite part lol) The porntreon site would start a page on patreon.
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                     Well... There are a bunch of options... Except for payments...
                     <br/>
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                     Credit-cards/paypal will not allow, except in certain instances like Patreon, use for porn of any kind. They consider it to be "high risk", with lots of fraud and returns. (Fraud, for obvious reasons, and returns due to wives/bosses/husbands/parents finding out about certain transactions and reversing them... Or people making false claims of "I didn't purchase that", or "I was not satisfied with my purchase".)
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     Which leaves the risk to third-parties, which is what Patreon does for PayPal and Credit-Cards. (They allow it, because donations are a lower risk and I am uncertain about the ability to do a "charge-back", since you didn't actually purchase anything.)
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     I guess that it would be in order to think about something like "Bitcoins" and "Litecoins" and "Etherium" and "Ripple", being the top-most and stable forms of digital funds. Funds which are not explicitly tied to any individual, are irreversible in most cases, for transactions, and are handled by third-parties for cash-out and purchase.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     There is also USDT, which is a $1 = $1 always, coin... Used for non-money holdings and exchanges for traders. That coin never goes up or down in value. One USDT is always worth $1 US dollar.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     There are plenty of legal places to BUY bitcoins and SELL them, without risk. Actually, easier than paypal and credit-cards too.
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                        Which leaves the risk to third-parties, which is what Patreon does for PayPal and Credit-Cards. (They allow it, because donations are a lower risk and I am uncertain about the ability to do a "charge-back", since you didn't actually purchase anything.
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                     Side-note: Even Patreon had a rough time getting Paypal to agree on having them as a payment processor.
                     <br/>
                     That's why they introduced Paypal supports quite later (could be 2 years after they launched or so), they had to present statistics that showed Patreon had minimal chargeback occurrences etc.
                     <br/>
                     And I seem to recall that the Paypal agreement isn't directly with Paypal, but rather a subsidiary of them, but don't quote me on that.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     Bottom line, that's the single biggest hurdle to overcome for anyone that wants to create something similar. Getting payment processors to not laugh at your face (and also appear trustworthy in the general public regarding their CC info, but it goes hand-in-hand).
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                     #35
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                  <div class="message-userContent lbContainer js-lbContainer" data-lb-caption-desc="gamersglory · Oct 22, 2017 at 8:54 AM" data-lb-id="post-263030">
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                        Paz said:
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                        Side-note: Even Patreon had a rough time getting Paypal to agree on having them as a payment processor.
                        <br/>
                        That's why they introduced Paypal supports quite later (could be 2 years after they launched or so), they had to present statistics that showed Patreon had minimal chargeback occurrences etc.
                        <br/>
                        And I seem to recall that the Paypal agreement isn't directly with Paypal, but rather a subsidiary of them, but don't quote me on that.
                        <br/>
                        <br/>
                        Bottom line, that's the single biggest hurdle to overcome for anyone that wants to create something similar. Getting payment processors to not laugh at your face (and also appear trustworthy in the general public regarding their CC info, but it goes hand-in-hand).
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                     I think your thinking of Braintree which is a division of Paypal
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                    After years of working on Dreaming of Dana, Intimate Relations, Life With Mary, and Haily's Story with Ptolemy
                    <br/>
                    I would love to put my Heart into something again
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                     Lexi will Return when I'm ready and if I'm Ready
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                     If you don't want to donate to me I understand Check out
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                     Great idea, I hope this would work.
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                     #37
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                        gamersglory said:
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                        I think your thinking of Braintree which is a division of Paypal
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                     Correct, Braintree it is.
                     <br/>
                     Original announcement e-mail:
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                         Hi there!
                         <br/>
                         <br/>
                         We have two very exciting announcements for NSFW creators.
                         <br/>
                         <br/>
                         First, we have changed the name of our NSFW flag to Adult Content. This change, along with better onboarding and help documentation, is to help creators understand when they have to flag themselves as Adult Content, as well as removing the not-so-loved “NSFW” title. We are also continuing to clarify what content is acceptable when flagged as Adult Content and what content is not allowed on Patreon.
                         <br/>
                         <br/>
                         Secondly, as you know, marking your page with the former NSFW tag (now, as an Adult Content creator), removes the ability to accept payments from patrons using PayPal, but…
                         <br/>
                         <br/>
                         We are pleased to announce that starting today, creators with the Adult Content flag can accept payments from patrons using PayPal!
                         <br/>
                         <br/>
                         For creators that have been with us for a while, you may remember that we used to allow this functionality in the past, and we only removed it after PayPal threatened to stop all payments to Patreon. Unfortunately, this is a common issue in the payments industry, both because payments for adult content are subject to a higher rate of chargebacks, and because of an aversion to the content itself among some payment processors.
                         <br/>
                         <br/>
                         After many long discussions we were able to convince PayPal, or more specifically their subsidiary Braintree, that Adult Content creators on Patreon are not a serious risk. Our content policy, and the nature of subscription payments, means that Adult Content creators on Patreon are less risky than most creators making adult content. We also have a very diverse mix of content types, so even if our Adult Content creators are higher risk than other types of creators, Patreon as a whole is less risky.
                         <br/>
                         <br/>
                         We are very happy about this victory, but the payment industry does not provide much transparency around payments for adult content. As a company we are not happy with this lack of transparency since it impacts the livelihoods of Adult Content creators. We will continue to work towards more certainty around these issues, but for now we feel that the benefit of allowing PayPal payments for Adult Content creators outweighs any hypothetical risk that it may change in the future.
                         <br/>
                         <br/>
                         We hope you’re as excited about this win as we are. Create on, friends!
                         <br/>
                         <br/>
                         Best, The Patreon Team
                        </div>
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                     <br/>
                     Which actually makes it 3 years of Patreon operating and having a good rep of low chargebacks before Paypal even considered teaming up.
                     <br/>
                     That means little chance of a new platform persuading them.
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                     Honestly, if you’re posting about thinking about researching and possibly developing, you probably shouldn’t bother. You’re hardly the first to float some notion of this, but I don’t think you really understand what it takes or how it works; the comments are generally no better so far.
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                     Unless you’re exceptionally wealthy, it just isn’t feasible. Patreon works because of its scale and name recognition. Patreon managed to succeed because it receives millions in venture capital. You don’t just start operating an international platform of any note without serious backing. Without that, you get a niche money-sink. Hell, you’d be surprised how few big internet platforms and services even turn a profit; most operate at significant loss because investors play the long game. Your platform could never hope to attract venture capitalists. In the meantime, there’s staffing, maintenance, and operational costs to consider, not to mention a miasma of insurance costs and liability concerns. Throw in the difficulties of transaction processing and host jumping to keep up with bans, and it’s easy to see that it just isn’t a practical idea.
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                     Setting aside the financial realities, the sort of platform you suggest will attract a handful of desperate fringe projects. Even with the resources to pull it off, you’re looking at running a donor site based around bestiality and rape fetishism; with luck, you might get one or two minor mainstream developers, but the bread &amp; butter would be those who can’t go anywhere else. Before long, your “unrestricted” site will be known as a cesspool, because it only has the most objectionable content. At that point, other creators won’t want to use it. Look at the reactions to the mention of Hatreon; clearly, its reputation is solidified, and you can see why so few would want in on it. An upstart attempt to allow extreme content will be saturated in it before it can build any diversity. You have a small niche donor base for a small niche cadre of developers who, because of the base, likely just try to outdo each other in extremity and little else. With service interruptions, being kicked from one server to another, legal concerns, and constant payment restructuring as processors cut the platform off or go under themselves, these developers are probably better off with a personal blog that has a “Donate” button.
                     <br/>
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                     In short, it’s unlikely you can get the necessary capital to even start, and if you somehow found the money, the business model is self-limiting and averse to growth or diversity. It’s a bad idea.
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                     each dev must have a paypal account i assume to get paid by patreon,all they need there own website or somewhere they can showcase there project(hello f95) where its upto us to visit and support there projects if we like them.i donated to emily sister attraction i think before patreon
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                        each dev must have a paypal account i assume to get paid by patreon,all they need there own website or somewhere they can showcase there project(hello f95) where its upto us to visit and support there projects if we like them.i donated to emily sister attraction i think before patreon
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                     While this is true (Paypal is an option for creators' payout), it's only feasible because you have Patreon as your "representative" in a sense.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     Developers having a Paypal donation button for a form of sustainable and regular income a-la Patreon is a pretty huge bargain since the moment they find out you're dealing with NSFW content you can wave bye-bye to your account (Regardless the fact that creators have been using it in the past, and some still do).
                     <br/>
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                     On top of that, going lone wolf with a personal Paypal account opens up a huge can of worms including chargebacks and CC fraud, something which Patreon deals with pre-emptively.
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                        dazzler said:
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                        each dev must have a paypal account i assume to get paid by patreon
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                     not exactly... Payoneer is another way to get paid by Patreon which even offers you a free prepaid CC to use with the account and the payout fees are lower when extracting to your bank account (compared to paypal)
                     <br/>
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                     and to stay on topic: payment provider like ccbill or others of the mayor porn industry might be an alternative to paypal
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                    Developer of:
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                    <a class="link link--external" href="http://hornynpc.games" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">
                     Midnight Ride (Steam &amp; itch.io)
                    </a>
                    <br/>
                    <a class="link link--external" href="https://pandapenguingames.itch.io/space-junk" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">
                     Space Junk - A Space Pirate Slave Trainer
                    </a>
                    [on hold]
                    <br/>
                    <a class="link link--external" href="https://pandapenguingames.itch.io/twin-star" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">
                     Twin Star - (T)wincest dating-sim RPG
                    </a>
                    [on hold]
                    <br/>
                    <br/>
                    Step-Dev of:
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                    <a class="link link--internal" href="https://f95zone.to/threads/guilty-pleasure-v0-5-quonix.69735/">
                     Guilty Pleasure
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                    by
                    <a class="link link--external" href="https://www.patreon.com/Quonix" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">
                     Quonix
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                        It is really relevant because if you want to do a website like patreon it would be nice if you're clear in what their errors are. As of now and after the information in the other thread about how to avoid the ban hammer, everything is reduced to how much hypocrite patreon is and how devs have to hide what they do so they can keep doing it. That's pretty much a problem of freedom of speech, and that's just one of the problems with patreon and websites like it.
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                        If you want to make a website like it for porn games, banning games based on arbitrary rules like that will simply result in Patreon 2.0 + porn. It's an honest suggestion.
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                     Sites have to abide by the laws of whichever countries host their servers, unless said countries don't give a shit about the digital stuff or have different laws about it.
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                        With patreon going down the route they are going. I was thinking of researching into and possibly developing a site for adult games and do something similar to Patreon. Most of the alternatives I have found to Patreon that allow adult games, are like kickstarter.
                        <br/>
                        <br/>
                        I was mainly thinking of hosting it in a country where some, if not most of the laws the are affecting Patreon wont work.
                        <br/>
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                        I would like to have a serious discussion on this and see what people think.
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                     thx that would be really helpful
                     <img alt=":D" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite674" data-shortname=":D" src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" title="Big grin    :D"/>
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                     I don't really see this idea as realistic unless you're coming from a position of considerable funding and experience. This isn't just about establishing a website and setting up payment solutions. You'd need legal expertise and business expertise (you need to handle things like VAT, for example, or risk legal action in significant parts of the world) at the very least. To realistically set up a Patreon alternative for porn, you pretty much have to establish a company and be prepared to not only make it your full-time job, but to employ other people too.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     For this reason I think the discussion shouldn't start with how to create a site like this. The discussion should start with
                     <i>
                      who
                     </i>
                     should create a site like this.
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                     <br/>
                     I could see a company like PornHub perhaps becoming interested if this was brought to their attention.
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                    Please support the development of Long Live the Princess and Supermodel: Defenders of Desire at one of these two sites:
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                     Hmmmm, I looked over the Indiegogo TOS and had ruled them out, but then I found this...
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                     The main issue I can think of with having a similar platform to Patreon, only for adult content is -
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                     Payment method. Paypal would never take part in this. Which is the most widely used payment method online, and probably the safest. I would never directly give any porn website my bank \ credit details.
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                     isnt Enty the japanese patreon a good option?
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                     What's the difference between incest/extreme content in a fictional game and actual white supremacists? If you dont realize why this makes Hatreon a bad idea, I can't help you.
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                     Hint: One is fictional, the other advocates real life violence against minorities and ethnic cleansing.
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                    Furthermore, I consider that Carthage must be destroyed.
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                        So I found
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                     Issue with them, is that is like Kickstarter.
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                        Issue with them, is that is like Kickstarter.
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                     As I said, not exactly, but still worth noting, maybe they'll expend as time goes on.
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                     While I appreciate everyone who is concerned about laws of different countries and people wanting to say that their fetishes are free speech and payments being a concern hosting and all that is the massive behemoth of the issue. Me being in IT for a registrar my big concern is the i word (i don't mean incest but dealing with them frequently has convinced me that they know when you call their name) in short the authority. Ps i love this place too much to say the name and risk it coming up in one of their federated verbatim searches
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                     While legal consequences and other things are a minor issue with them if you cross their guidelines hosts and registrars will know and can refuse to touch you. I don't believe they explicitly have direct rules and laws toward content but they have been known to play hard ball when it suits them so while i personally have no opinion on loli or shota and don't feel that pixels really matter. They dont care what you think. If you get black or grey listed on that side hosts and registries will not touch you. And this crosses all country lines. If you "own" a domain you are at their mercy. That doesn't mean that nobody gets away with it it just means that they built the system and they can find you. I have had the pleasure of taking part in some of those and the amount of info literally anyone can give them can follow you forever. While i think it's dumb to regulate games so heavily
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                     does have valid ground when saying certain restrictions. You can put literally anything on the internet yes but it is their machine and it can be taken down. It's not an agenda to me to fear that content it's self preservation it gets especially weird when money gets involved
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                     Yup.. quite literally- it's money that runs this internet train.
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                     Of course this train is not gonna stop anytime soon but some passengers may get thrown out during the ride.
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                     To set up a patreon type site, you need money and investors. If someone has enough funds to get it started, then their next step is to attract funding from investors and set up a guaranteed income supply. If you don't, you will face what happened to many uploader sites, etc. So it is IMPERATIVE that you get money and attract investors. While it's true that "it's just pixels", it's also the image they portray and it's super important in the business and financial worlds. With that said, and I cannot say this enough, those who have the money set the rules.
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                     I just hope that when an alternative site to host these games comes out, the devs go together, and not disperse to their own separate sites.
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                        muttdoggy said:
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                        With that said, and I cannot say this enough, those who have the money set the rules.
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                     Then come to Europe. Net neutrality is a reality here.
                     <br/>
                     There's always at least 2 other offers in each single part of the country, whatever the country you choose. So operators don't go on nervous breakdown since they've more to loose than to win if they do so. And this apply to anything, from the cable/fiber network operators, to the ISP, including but not limited to, hosting operators. And like peering exchange points are none-profit based, there's really no point from where you can be kicked out, unless the justice say so.
                     <br/>
                     The worse than can happen is that you'll be shadow banned. But like I said, net neutrality is a reality, so if an operator start to do this, he will loose the trust of the others, whatever they agree with your content or not. And like there's always an alternative, he will also loose his customers, whatever they are other operators or individuals.
                     <br/>
                     And, finally, investors are less chilly and more open minded. Hey, the owner of the third ISP in my country started in the life by owning some peep-show, and now his society offer full fiber access, up to 1Gbps with unlimited traffic, VoIP and more than 100 TV channel for €40/month ; €20/month for the same offer but on, up to 20Mbps, ADSL. His society also own one of the four mobile operators and (what was and perhaps still is) the biggest (in size) host center in Europe. So, yeah, investors are really less chilly and more open minded...
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     The only ones who can set the rules in Europe are the government and, in this particular case, the payment partners. And even if the government succeed sometimes (like in the UK), they failed a lot of times in countries like France, Spain or Italy, to names only three.
                     <br/>
                     No, really, here the only people who can goes against a patreon-like for porn are the partners you'll choose for the payment. So, choose one who agree from the start, use a TLD operated by a society not based in the US, host your main servers in Europe and also locate your society in Europe, then you're good. No one, except the justice, can come and try to impose his moral on you.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     So, now who know a rich investor in Europe ?
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                    Ren'py:
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                     Track variables
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                     Updated
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                     Write a dynamic Ren'Py game
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                     Also contacting with Patreon's empolyee is hell. Strange zendesk ticket system is literally pain in the ass, also no informations about paypal restrictions which made us wait 5 days for free. Another 3 days for receiving reply from they.
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                     Okay, I admit that I haven't read the entire thread, but it seems that the main concern is payment options. There are several available adult-focused paymentoptions-providers - I was looking into this with some other people when the first reports about the policychange from Patreon arrived, and I found at least two or three that mainly focus on adult content (mostly porn-pages, but I doubt they would have any trouble with a adult-gaming community). These cost money, of course, mostly a cut off the top, based on amount. Which is fine, you're not gonna get very good deals with these wares, so some of those are perfectly fine for such a startup.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     Another problem is to actually get the supporters to follow. I guess you could post a link on your Patreon-page telling people to... "migrate here, please" - although I would guess that would get shut down quickly by Patreon. Patreon is well known, and popular, and there is a ton of people there, with successfull campaigns, and a community - it will be hard to get everyone to move over. So the "new site" needs to be better - or at least just as easy to use, just the same opportunities (or more / better ones) for integrating stuff to other sites, and so on.
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                     here some I find that could be interesting:
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                      Crowdfunding Artists &amp; Communities in Australia
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                      Accept Pre-Orders Easily | Celery
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                     my 2cents. name it porntreon
                     <img alt=":p" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite673" data-shortname=":p" src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" title="Stick out tongue    :p"/>
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                     Ass IS Ass... thighs... hips... the trinity of the behind.
                     <br/>
                     Sick of these fake "harem" games. (sharing is not caring)​
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                        I don't really see this idea as realistic unless you're coming from a position of considerable funding and experience. This isn't just about establishing a website and setting up payment solutions. You'd need legal expertise and business expertise (you need to handle things like VAT, for example, or risk legal action in significant parts of the world) at the very least. To realistically set up a Patreon alternative for porn, you pretty much have to establish a company and be prepared to not only make it your full-time job but to employ other people too.
                        <br/>
                        <br/>
                        For this reason, I think the discussion shouldn't start with how to create a site like this. The discussion should start with
                        <i>
                         who
                        </i>
                        should create a site like this.
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                        I could see a company like PornHub perhaps becoming interested if this was brought to their attention.
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                     In the US you do not need to worry about VAT. Yes, you would want to have a lawyer or two on the payroll. It's Mainly how you incorporate the business. I would make sure that the site would be bound to US law which is the better standard then EU law. Dealing with the EU is too big of a headache. Patreon itself is under US law and they don't have to deal with other governments plus there are laws that are good for crowdfunding sites. As for the full-time thing, you would want to have IT and web developers to keep things secure and to build the site up more.
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                    After years of working on Dreaming of Dana, Intimate Relations, Life With Mary, and Haily's Story with Ptolemy
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                    I would love to put my Heart into something again
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                     Lexi will Return when I'm ready and if I'm Ready
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                     If you don't want to donate to me I understand Check out
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                        In the US you do not need to worry about VAT.
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                     If you're going to have EU customers or creators, then yes, you need to worry about VAT. Specifically, EU creators with EU backers. Patreon does for that exact reason.
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                        baneini said:
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                        First create a payment provider thats fine with beastiality/rape/loli so that your site can actually function.
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                     You make a good point, but I do caution the "loli" part, as many countries have actually outlawed such content. I personally think it's no different from any other fantasy, but the law is on the payment provider's side.
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                     CHARACTER DEPTH MATTERS!!!
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                      The Things We Do For Love
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                     is still on hold,
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                      Patreon
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                        not exactly... Payoneer is another way to get paid by Patreon which even offers you a free prepaid CC to use with the account and the payout fees are lower when extracting to your bank account (compared to paypal)
                        <br/>
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                        and to stay on topic: payment provider like ccbill or others of the mayor porn industry might be an alternative to paypal
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                     I was on Reddit earlier and an adult site dev mentioned that ccbill has a similar set of rules to Paypal. Its not the adult content itself, but the taboos that they don't like. We'd likely need to resort to Crypto or something to really get away with this, unless someone decides to create a trustworthy and uncensored version of Paypal
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                     CHARACTER DEPTH MATTERS!!!
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                      The Things We Do For Love
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                     is still on hold,
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                      Patreon
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                     here.
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                    <time class="u-dt" data-date-string="Jan 28, 2018" data-time="1517096348" data-time-string="7:39 AM" datetime="2018-01-28T07:39:08+0800" dir="auto" title="Jan 28, 2018 at 7:39 AM">
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                        Belle said:
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                        If you're going to have EU customers or creators, then yes, you need to worry about VAT. Specifically, EU creators with EU backers. Patreon does for that exact reason.
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                     Not just EU, Japan too and probably more countries by now. Soon everyone will be trying to use VAT as an ill fitting import tax on digital services and using the threat of future tax treaties to pressure people into complying. Tax treaties which don't currently exist and will probably not allow retroactive punishment any way, but who wants to take that risk?
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                     It's a mess, in globalization only the big boys can play.
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                     I have a website and looking for web developers, artists, moderators, game developers tired of Patreon's ban. I have 1 TB of traffic a month to start with but with using file hosting like Mega, Zippy, etc... it should be able to take on a decent startup.
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                        I wouldn't allow loli/shota content if I ran the site.. incest/bestiality/monster/teenagers can skirt by most laws but NOT loli.
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                     Depends on where you live. The United States has struck down loli-related laws that don't criminalize obscene material, meaning loli is legally in the same category as any other fringe sexual content such as scat, rape, bestiality, necro, etc.
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                        Depends on where you live. The United States has struck down loli-related laws that don't criminalize obscene material, meaning loli is legally in the same category as any other fringe sexual content such as scat, rape, bestiality, necro, etc.
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                     Hate to burst your bubble but Loli is charged in the US depending on the state as Possession of **********.  scat, rape, bestiality, necro on a Fiction based game could be defended as art if so desired
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                    After years of working on Dreaming of Dana, Intimate Relations, Life With Mary, and Haily's Story with Ptolemy
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                     My main thing on the site I want to build is I would only go for compliance at first to US, Canada, EU and the UK. Japanese laws are a whole other thing but would make sense, in the long run, to add Japan later. Also, you need the legal protection of incorporation or a Limited Liability Company before you make one move as this area is a minefield.
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                    After years of working on Dreaming of Dana, Intimate Relations, Life With Mary, and Haily's Story with Ptolemy
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                    I would love to put my Heart into something again
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                     If you don't want to donate to me I understand Check out
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                     is correct. People have been put in prison in various states in the USA for things ranging from drawn art to 3dcg. It doesn't even have to be a law against it specifically since there are various laws on the books in several states that are so broadly defined that it does apply to it. You could face charges under obscenity laws, for example. Let me cite 2 cases to help you understand my point- an Iowa man was put in prison for 6 months because he downloaded Japanese lolicon manga. Another man in Missouri was imprisoned for 3 years for having incest comics with loli artwork on his computer. None of these are 3d.. they are both drawn content. I could quote more. And it's only about
                     <i>
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                     content.
                     <br/>
                     But with any 3d depiction, it gets into really, really dangerous territory. All they have to do is say "the model is based on this real life girl" that the artist either knows, has googled, or is aware of like a movie star. Boom! He's in prison for distributing child pornography. Don't fool yourselves. I know lawyers and they can be masters at connecting certain ideas and making them stick to the judge and jury.
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                     It's best to play it safe and keep the content 18+. That way, there is no fear of prosecution by either the artists or the fans who download it.
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                     In some cases, you don't have to live in the US. Say the site that your content is hosted on is hosted by Go daddy who has there servers in the US you could get charged in the US for your content and if it's a ********** charge they will get you extradited
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                    After years of working on Dreaming of Dana, Intimate Relations, Life With Mary, and Haily's Story with Ptolemy
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                        Hate to burst your bubble but Loli is charged in the US depending on the state as Possession of **********.  scat, rape, bestiality, necro on a Fiction based game could be defended as art if so desired
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                     It's a little more tricky than that. Actual child nudity is protected accross the board as long as it isnt lewd. Loli is mostly protected as long as it doesn't depict actual children (simpsons porn is, but 3dcg isn't) as this is the best way to legally enforce without breaking amendment rights. Lewdness of children is seen as a form of intent.
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                     This is why R34 cartoon porn gets by so easily. There's no why to percieve it as the real thing and even though its lewd and intends sexual gratification, its style isn't depicting actual children.
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                  <div class="message-userContent lbContainer js-lbContainer" data-lb-caption-desc="gamersglory · Mar 10, 2018 at 2:48 PM" data-lb-id="post-563412">
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                        It's a little more tricky than that. Actual child nudity is protected across the board as long as it isn't lewd. Loli is mostly protected as long as it doesn't depict actual children (Simpsons porn is, but 3dcg isn't) as this is the best way to legally enforce without breaking amendment rights. Lewdness of children is seen as a form of intent.
                        <br/>
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                        This is why R34 cartoon porn gets by so easily. There's no way to perceive it as the real thing and even though its lewd and intends sexual gratification, its style isn't depicting actual children.
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                     This is where you would encounter problems still is in a case like this it would still be up to the jury and If they look at it as the standard for cp-laws is t
                     <span style="color: #ffffff">
                      he
                      <span style="color: #ffffff">
                       <a class="link link--external" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miller_test" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">
                        Miller test
                       </a>
                       which is up to the jury to determine.
                       <br/>
                       <br/>
                       The Miller Test is as Follows
                       <br/>
                       <br/>
                       <br/>
                       <ul>
                        <li data-xf-list-type="ul">
                         Whether "the average person, applying contemporary
                         <a class="link link--external" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Community_standards" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">
                          community standards
                         </a>
                         ", would find that the
                         <a class="link link--external" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Work_of_art" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">
                          work
                         </a>
                         , taken as a whole, appeals to the
                         <a class="link link--external" href="https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/prurient" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">
                          prurient
                         </a>
                         interest,
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                         Whether the work depicts or describes, in a
                         <a class="link link--external" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patently_offensive" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">
                          patently offensive
                         </a>
                         way, sexual conduct or excretory functions
                         <a class="link link--external" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miller_test#cite_note-3" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">
                          [3]
                         </a>
                         specifically defined by applicable state law,
                        </li>
                        <li data-xf-list-type="ul">
                         Whether the work, taken as a whole, lacks serious
                         <a class="link link--external" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Literature" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">
                          literary
                         </a>
                         ,
                         <a class="link link--external" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Art" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">
                          artistic
                         </a>
                         ,
                         <a class="link link--external" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">
                          political
                         </a>
                         , or
                         <a class="link link--external" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">
                          scientific
                         </a>
                         value.
                         <a class="link link--external" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miller_test#cite_note-4" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">
                          [4]
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                        This is where you would encounter problems still is in a case like this it would still be up to the jury and If they look at it as the standard for cp-laws is t
                        <span style="color: #ffffff">
                         he
                         <span style="color: #ffffff">
                          <a class="link link--external" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miller_test" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">
                           Miller test
                          </a>
                          which is up to the jury to determine.
                          <br/>
                          <br/>
                          The Miller Test is as Follows
                          <br/>
                          <br/>
                          <br/>
                         </span>
                        </span>
                        <br/>
                        <ul>
                         <li data-xf-list-type="ul">
                          Whether "the average person, applying contemporary
                          <a class="link link--external" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Community_standards" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">
                           community standards
                          </a>
                          ", would find that the
                          <a class="link link--external" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Work_of_art" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">
                           work
                          </a>
                          , taken as a whole, appeals to the
                          <a class="link link--external" href="https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/prurient" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">
                           prurient
                          </a>
                          interest,
                         </li>
                         <li data-xf-list-type="ul">
                          Whether the work depicts or describes, in a
                          <a class="link link--external" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patently_offensive" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">
                           patently offensive
                          </a>
                          way, sexual conduct or excretory functions
                          <a class="link link--external" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miller_test#cite_note-3" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">
                           [3]
                          </a>
                          specifically defined by applicable state law,
                         </li>
                         <li data-xf-list-type="ul">
                          Whether the work, taken as a whole, lacks serious
                          <a class="link link--external" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Literature" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">
                           literary
                          </a>
                          ,
                          <a class="link link--external" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Art" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">
                           artistic
                          </a>
                          ,
                          <a class="link link--external" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">
                           political
                          </a>
                          , or
                          <a class="link link--external" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">
                           scientific
                          </a>
                          value.
                          <a class="link link--external" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miller_test#cite_note-4" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">
                           [4]
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                     Which is why most cases of lolicon convictions are of 3d images. Anime characters are not seen as part of the community standard.
                     <br/>
                     <br/>
                     The big thing in the US is that you do not want the media getting their hands on anything controversial. Its not our courts you have to worry about, but the media's desire for ratings. They will make the public crucify you if what they tell them gets the ratings.
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                        Paitryn said:
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                        Which is why most cases of lolicon convictions are of 3d images. Anime characters are not seen as part of the community standard.
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                        The big thing in the US is that you do not want the media getting their hands on anything controversial. Its not our courts you have to worry about, but the media's desire for ratings. They will make the public crucify you if what they tell them gets the ratings.
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                     So true. Kinda like how they caused the Tide Pod controversy. They latch onto controversy and ride it like a bull, even if they have to exaggerate it.
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                     CHARACTER DEPTH MATTERS!!!
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                      The Things We Do For Love
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                     is still on hold,
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                      Patreon
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                     here.
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