Mm - hmm.
I guess  I don't  I don't  um , it 's not clear to me how to reconcile , you know , what you 're saying , which I think is right , with  the way I 've been looking at it. That it 's  it 's  it 's all not very clear to me. But it seems to me that the desire  the desirable feature to have is something that , um , is bottom - up. You know , however we do that.
Mm - hmm.
And and so I guess what I don't understand is how to do that and still be discriminative , because to be discriminative you have to have categories and the only categories that we know of to use are sort of these human  human sig significant  categories that are significant to humans , like phonemes , things like that.