

ra>   Robert, you keep making references to "orthodox" belief, and saying
ra> things like "it is held that..." (cf. "Kermit" thread).  On what
ra> exact body of theology are you drawing for what you call "orthodox?"

     "Orthodox" is a compound word. It comes from 'orthos' (straight, true, 
     right) and from 'doxa' (opinion, doctrine, teaching). I use orthodox to 
     refer to 'right teaching.' Right teaching is derived from letting God 
     speak to us through the Bible. This can be from reading simple truths 
     in the Scriptures and by using the Bible to interpret the Bible.

ra> Who is that "holds that" Luke meant what you said he meant?

     I think that it is apparent from reading the Scriptures that are
     pertinent.

     Luke 23:43 records Christ's promise to the repentant thief who hung on
     an adjacent cross: "Truly I say to you, today you will be with Me in
     paradise." But was it not until later that Christ rose from the dead
     and ascended to heaven? If Christ Himself was not in heaven until
     Sunday, how could the repentant thief have been there with Him? The
     answer lies in the location of "paradise" when Jesus died.

     Apparently paradise was not exalted to heaven until Easter Day.

     Jesus refers to it in the middle of the story of the rich man and 
     Lazarus as "Abraham's Bosom," to which the godly beggar Lazarus was
     carried by the angels after his decease (Luke 16:19-31).  Thus
     "Abraham's Bosom" referred to the place where the souls of the redeemed
     waited till the day of Christ's Resurrection.

     It was not yet lifted to heaven but it may well have been a section of 
     hades (Hebrew: Sheol), reserved for believers who had died in the faith
     but would not be admitted into the glorious presence of God in heaven
     until the price of redemption had actually been paid on Calvary; or
     even that none would precede the presence of Jesus back to glory with
     the Father.

     Doubtless it was the infernal paradise that the souls of Jesus and the
     repentant thief repaired after they each died on Friday afternoon. But
     on Sunday, after the risen Christ had first appeared to Mary Magdalene
     (John 20:17) and her two companions (Matthew 28:9), presumably He then
     took up with Him to glory all the inhabitants of infernal paradise
     (including Abraham, Lazarus, and the repentant thief). We read in
     Ephesians 4:8 concerning Christ: "Ascending on high, He led captivity
     captive; He gave gifts unto men." Verse 9 continues: "But what does `He
     ascended' mean but that He also descended to the lowest parts of the
     earth?" -i.e., to hades. Verse 10 adds: "He who descended is the same
     as He who ascended above all the heavens." Presumably He led the whole
     band of liberated captives from hades (i.e., the whole population of
     preresurrection paradise) up to the glory of heaven.

ra> Whenever your personal interpretation of Biblical passages is
ra> challenged, your only response seems to be that one needs merely to
ra> "look at the Bible" in order to see the truth, but what of those who
ra> see Biblical things differently from you?

     I think that this characterization is faulty. Whenever my 'personal 
     interpretation' is questioned, I usually give a reason.

     As for those that see things differently, please, put forward where
     there is a valid difference, and we can discuss it. 

     I seem to be seeing from you the notion that any difference in how one 
     views the Bible is somehow legitimate, except, or course, for the stuff 
     that I glean from it. Put forward a contrary view and perhaps we can 
     have a discussion on that topic. But to decry something that I put 
     forward, without putting forward something else to discuss, and to 
     dismiss what I put forward while giving credence to other alleged views
     that have yet to be put forward is simply being contentious.

ra> Are we to simply assume that you are the only one who really
ra> understands it?

     If you believe that something that I have drawn from Scripture is 
     wrong, then please, show me from Scripture where it is wrong.  Simply 
     stating that there are other views is not a proof. Show it to me from 
     Scripture and then we can go on.
